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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/96f67a3a4092e2de1a0f211d482ed5de.pdf
476d21ab1618a905d8d3884a7c9daf0a
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The “Learning to Give” Project
The Learning to Give Project is seeking funding to extend and expand the work of the K-12 Education in
Philanthropy Project to a national scale.
With sufficient funding in place the Project will bring a renewed understanding of the value of community
involvement through personal giving back into communities throughout the United States. Applying the
Sponsorship Model.
The Learning to Give Project is designed to be supported by private philanthropy provided by corporate and
foundation sponsors. While the Project will exploit to the extent appropriate any revenue-generating
opportunities created during the course of the Project, it is expected that sponsorships will constitute the
bulk of future Project funding. The Project's approach to its sponsors will be guided by principles first
developed by American public broadcasting to manage sponsors and underwriters of television and radio
programming. Those principles, modified for this project, are that:
Editorial control of the Project and its component parts will rest solely with the Project's principals
(its management and governing bodies).
No funding arrangements will create the perception of editorial control by anyone other than project
principals or that the Project has been inappropriately influenced by its funding sources.
All rights to the Project and its component parts shall remain with the Project's principals.
Within these limits, sponsors and underwriters will be afforded every opportunity to associate their activities
with the vision, mission and goals of the Project and to extend the level of the association through all
appropriate venues.
The Learning To Give Project will be designed to generate a high, positive public relations profile to support
its national outreach objectives. The Project will work to actively raise the awareness of the significance of
public philanthropy among many targeted constituencies as a way to build support for the Project and its
local partners. This environment will provide potential sponsors with significant opportunities to associate
themselves with this attractive, positive, community-focused effort. Specifically, the Project will make
sponsorship an attractive promotion opportunity by:
Generating significant print, Internet and other media materials that will allow sponsors to receive
supporting credit,
Providing the sponsors with a path to building image awareness with American youth,
Actively positioning the Project favorably with opinion-leading demographic groups, among
business leaders and other key constituencies,
Promoting the Project aggressively in national media, and
Creating a positive association between the sponsor and a positive, community-building program
with a nationwide audience.
The Project represents an opportunity of unassailable merit for corporate stewardship by using the
economic power and influence of the private sector to fuel this critical action for the common good through
the independent sector – the nonprofit arena that has produced so many benefits for civic life in America.
�-2Companies and other sponsors that become associated with the Project, through sponsorship, will accrue
both prestige and a large measure of national good will.
Proposed Application of Funds
Funds received to support of the Project will be used to:
Complete, validate, and distribute the full K-12 philanthropy curriculum begun by the K-12
Education in Philanthropy Project,
Establish a national network of regional Project coordinators to facilitate and support state-based
Learning to Give organizations,
Create and disseminate testing tools and textbooks in support of classroom teachers integrating
the Project into their classrooms,
Rebuild and substantially extend the Internet presence of the Project and its utility to teachers,
students, and other interested parties, and
Guide a national movement to develop renewed interest in applying the principles of personal
philanthropy at the community level.
The Project is designed to expand the conventional concept of philanthropy (financial giving) to include
volunteerism (the giving of time and talent to help others). It will also,
Mobilize the natural change agents of American life, its children and youth,
Educate these children about the value of the independent, not-for-profit sector to their
communities and to society, and
Empower children to contribute to that society through their own personal philanthropy.
Learning to Give will also leverage today’s communications technologies to create, distribute and support a
set of educational tools and other resources intended help local communities teach their children the value
of personal philanthropy – the value of giving, serving and taking personal action for the common good of
their community. The Project will work with local supporters and through public schools to integrate a
complete philanthropy curriculum into the existing courseware at all grade levels. The goal is to make an
understanding and appreciation of the value of personal giving a fundamental part of each child’s core
education.
�-3The Operating Plan
Establish a 501(c)(3) Entity
The Project will establish itself as a new 501(c) (3) not-for-profit organization and will assume all of the
existing assets and liabilities of the K-12 Education in Philanthropy Project with the concurrence and
support of Council of Michigan Foundations -- founders of the original Project. This change is intended to
allow the Project to easily establish itself as a “national” entity and enable it to pursue national funding.
Establish A Board of Directors
A Board of Directors with eleven members will provide governance to the Project. The Board will include at
a minimum:
The Executive Director of the Council of Michigan Foundations
The Senior Executive of the Learning To Give Project, and
A representative named by each of the three largest financial supporters of the Project.
It is expected that the Board will meet monthly during the first two years operations and will meet thereafter
as determined to be necessary by the Board.
Establish Additional Advisory Boards
A National Content Advisory Board will be established to review and provide advice on all content
developed by the Project. Members of the Board will be expected to publish articles in professional
journals and other research related to K-12 philanthropy education in support of the Project.
A State Coalition Advisory Board will be established once the Project’s state-based support system is in
place. Members of the Board will be selected from members of the state coalitions participating in the
Project. A system will be adopted to assure that all states have a voice on this Board and that membership
rotates among participating states. The Board will advise the Project on areas of mutual concern and serve
as a communications path between the state-based organizations and the national Project.
Identify National Project Management
All normal management and Project executive responsibilities for the Project will reside with a National
Executive Director who will be selected by and directly accountable to the Board of Directors. The Director
will be empowered to create the national staff necessary to accomplish the Project’s objectives consistent
with budgets approved in advance by the Board.
Learning To Give will utilize the substantial foundation created by the K-12 Education in Philanthropy
Project. From this existing infrastructure the Project it will expand its operating base in 4 distinct areas
consistent with available resources:
1. Management and Operations,
�-42. Curriculum Development, Testing and Assessment,
3. Regional - State Project Dissemination, and
4. Promotion, Development and Professional Training.
Management and Operation Plan
National leadership for Learning To Give will be drawn from the experienced staff brought together to
execute the Education in Philanthropy Project. That core staff will be expanded in several key skill areas to
bring additional operating expertise into the Project. This core staff, structured to be operational effective
and financially efficient, will be expected to utilize a wide circle of sustaining advisors, consultants and
subject matter experts to guide and direct the “national” execution of the Project. The following chart
presents the proposed Functional Organization for the national Project.
Funded By Learning to Give Funded By State Coalitions
Organizational development will proceed according to a Project Timeline from 2001 to 2005 and will be
designed to:
Complete the development, testing and assessment of the courseware needed to support an entire
K-12 curriculum,
Establish a validated procedure for revising and refreshing these materials using outside experts
and feedback from those using the materials in the field,
Optimize the use of the internet as the preferred method of distributing content, class materials and
other Project information to 3 distinct audiences: students, parents, and educators,
Develop and support a national project dissemination strategy through a regional office structure
that will stimulate and support state-based Project Coalitions,
Support the professional growth of educational professionals actively teaching Learning To Give
principles in any environment, and
Build national awareness of and support for the concept of teaching the principles of philanthropy giving, serving and taking personal action for the common good.
The Project expects to make extraordinary use of new internet-based communications tools to make
Project materials available to the widest audiences possible. Project Web sites will be
Curriculum Development, and
Testing and Assessment Plan.
The Project will build upon the “value added” approach to philanthropy education established by K-12
Education in Philanthropy Project. This approach infuses the existing school curriculums with philanthropic
enhancements, thereby eliminating the need for teachers to materially change their existing lesson plans.
�-5Content creation takes place in several stages:
First, intellectual content needed for the Project will be drawn from academic work in progress at
graduate schools throughout the country. As the Project scales up to the national level, it will foster
strategic relationships with key universities working in the fields needed by the Project. These
relationships will be essential as an ongoing source of academically sound history, economics,
political science, and geography content related to philanthropy education.
Second, operating within stringent protocols, Project teacher panels will translate the academic
content to age appropriate K-12 lessons and plans. Lessons will continue to be added to the pool
of resources by teachers in professional development institutes, by summer writers, and consultant
writers.
Additionally, teaching support material will continue to be written, such as briefing papers on key
ideas, people, and organizations.
The Project will acquire all existing materials from the earlier project and expand that work into a complete
curriculum and supporting materials. Over 750 lessons have been written or are in various stages of
development. Each completed lesson meets state educational requirements. Every existing lesson has
been reviewed by an independent Fairness Committee and has been field-tested by at least 5 teachers
who have taught the lesson who submit a written evaluation of it to the Project.
The Project will continue the practice of creating quality assurance protocols to govern all content
development and learning outcomes.
Project Dissemination Plan
The project will develop an activist, multi-front plan to promote and disseminate the Project to all potential
interest groups. Specifically, the Project will:
Create a nationwide network of regional offices supporting state-based coalitions in all 50 states
and the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands,
Exploit the Internet and the world wide web as communication and information dissemination tools
to maximize the reach and economic efficiency of the Project, and
Develop substantial outreach and communications programs to broaden the interest in
philanthropy education to interested public service organizations and others.
Regional Offices
Simultaneous with the completion of the curriculum the Project will move to establish a nationwide outreach
and support infrastructure to disseminate the Project throughout the country. National dissemination will be
organized around ten regions, each led by a Regional Director and managed at the national level by a
National Dissemination Director reporting to the Project Executive Director.
�-6The role of regional directors is to stimulate and organize leadership coalitions in states in their regions.
They will also be responsible for coordinating the efforts of the states and regions into the national program
and providing state organizations with technical assistance. Each Regional Office will be funded with
Learning To Give resources.
Each state coalition (grouped in 5-6 states to make a region) will be locally funded and responsible for
leading and funding the integration of the curriculum into classrooms in their respective states. Learning To
Give national and regional resources will be focused on supporting these state organizations.
Internet Portals
The Project will expand the existing K-12 Web-site so that it can serve as a comprehensive resource for all
audiences interested in the creation and uses of philanthropy education content and collateral materials.
While curriculum materials are being developed within the framework of contributing to a formal K-12
Educational system, they are applicable to many other environments. They can be equally valuable to
youth groups, churches, families, and the service organizations. Project Web sites will be designed to
optimize access to the whole body of materials created by the Project by all interested parties. The Web
site will contain five sets of directions for specific constituency groups to use in leading the development of
a philanthropy education coalition in their state including a nonprofit guidebook, a corporate guidebook, a
foundation guidebook, a university guidebook, and an educational organization guidebook.
When completed, the Learning To Give portal will host three interactive Web sites that will distribute
philanthropic educational content to teachers, students and parents and create online environments where
a national dialogue about individual philanthropy can take place.
Additional Dissemination Strategies
To complement regional efforts and the Web site the Project will execute a broad publication and outreach
plan designed to bring information about the project to the widest possible audience. The Project will:
Publish and distribute newsletters to key educational, philanthropic audiences, and the general
media,
Publish collateral materials that support the philanthropy curriculum and spread interest in the
project, such as posters, bookmarks, tablemats, and pictures for student drawings.
Deliver conference workshops at strategic national conferences related to philanthropy and
education
Continue the Philanthropy Education Network launched by the K-12 Project to develop a
professional identity among the teachers active in the field.
In addition, the Project will assist interested parties mobilize “on the ground” resources to support the
Project’s mission at the grassroots level. The project will help organize and consult with state and
community- based coalitions (comprised of organizations such as service clubs like Rotary International),
universities, philanthropy groups, state associations, teachers and others) who wish to be involved with the
Project.
The Objective of this dissemination model is to combine the depth and commitment of a flexible state and
community- based implementation model (thus creating local demand among vested parties) with the
�-7unparalleled power of the Web and collateral technologies (to meet demand using the most cost-efficient
and effective delivery systems currently available).
Promotion, Development and Professional Training
The success of the Project will depend on the success of its efforts to raise awareness about the need to
renew American interest in personal philanthropy and develop support for that effort throughout the country.
To achieve this goal the Project will undertake a significant promotion campaign to bring the Learning To
Give Project to the attention of many critical constituencies. That campaign will include a national
promotion campaign to build awareness of the program among the general public, a campaign to attract
interest in participating in the Project among local, regional and nation organizations, and a program for
developing continuing profession interest in the Project among classroom teachers.
These efforts will be supported by an active campaign to print and distribute as widely as possible the
materials created by the Project and to leverage the Internet as a content distribution medium.
The Financial Plan
All funds raised in support of the Project will be applied to the general operating expenses consistent with
operating budgets adopted by the Project’s Board of Directors. For planning and budgeting purposes the
Project has established a “preliminary operating budget” that reflects the operating plan outlined above.
Exact details of final spending plans will depend on the priorities set by the Board in the Project’s Adopted
Operating Budgets.
Summary Budget
Salaries & Benefits
Technical Support
State Coalition Development
Web and Internet
Publications & Promotion
Test Development/Assessment
Rent & Office Logistics
Pilot Program
Other, Miscellaneous
Year 1
Year 2
Year 3
Total
$1,620,000
216,000
397,000
368,000
265,000
185,000
195,000
130,000
170,000
$3,540,000
$1,790,000
225,000
550,000
300,000
275,000
240,000
200,000
135,000
342,000
$4,056,000
$2,075,000
235,000
555,000
280,000
75,000
140,000
210,000
140,000
325,000
$4,021,000
$5,485,000
676,000
1,502,000
948,000
615,000
565,000
605,000
405,000
831,000
$11,620,000
�-8Regional Office/State Coalition Schedule
2001
Region V
Michigan
Minnesota
Ohio
Illinois
Indiana
Wisconsin
Region IX
California
Nevada
Arizona
Hawaii
Region VI
New Mexico
Oklahoma
Texas
Arkansas
Louisiana
2002
Region X
Washington
Oregon
Idaho
Alaska
Region I
Connecticut
New Hampshire
Maine
Rhode Island
Massachusetts
Vermont
2003
Region II
New York
New Jersey
Puerto Rico
Virgin Islands
Region III
Pennsylvania
West Virginia
Maryland
Delaware
Dist. of Columbia
Region IV
2004
2005
Mississippi
Georgia
Kentucky
Florida
Tennessee
Alabama
N. Carolina
S. Carolina
Region VII
Nebraska
Kansas
Iowa
Missouri
Region VII
Montana
North Dakota
South Dakota
Wyoming
Utah
Colorado
�-9-
MaineStream Media
419 North Lincoln Street
Arlington, Virginia 22201
E-mail - ltl@MaineStreamMedia.com
C-Phone - 703.597.6946
Fax - 703.528.4941
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Our State of Generosity
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains the records of four Michigan nonprofit organizations: Council of Michigan Foundations, Michigan Nonprofit Association, Michigan Community Service Commission, and the Johnson Center for Philanthropy at GVSU. The documents are compiled by the Johnson Center for Philanthropy, and records document the history of the organizations from the 1960s to the 2010s.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1968-2014
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/515">Our State of Generosity collection, JCPA-04</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy
Council of Michigan Foundations
Michigan Nonprofit Association
Michigan Community Service Commission
Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy
Charities
Philanthropy and Society
Fundraising
Records
Michigan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Council of Michigan Foundations; Michigan Nonprofit Association; Michigan Community Service Commission
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
JCPA-04
Language
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eng
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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JCPA-04_CMF-LTG-SP_2000-11-07_Sponsor-Proposed-National-Rollout
Title
A name given to the resource
Learning to Give 2000-11-07 sponsor proposed national rollout
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Council of Michigan Foundations. Learning to Give
Description
An account of the resource
Learning to Give 2000-11-07 sponsor proposed national rollout. Records are compiled in the Our State of Generosity collection by the Johnson Center, along with the files of the Michigan Nonprofit Association (MNA), the Michigan Community Service Commission (MCSC) and the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy. Originals are at the Council of Michigan Foundations.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy
Charities
Philanthropy and Society
Records
Fundraising
Council of Michigan Foundations
Learning to Give
Michigan
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49474
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/515">Our State of Generosity collection, JCPA-04</a>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2000-11-07
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/04825d15a011dd82aace4f3ff4ce3886.pdf
09402b010c96350b656fcee8d23649a9
PDF Text
Text
A Sponsorship Opportunity
In times of unprecedented prosperity at the dawn of the 21st century, America faces a civic crisis. A
troubling undercurrent has entered our national culture—a failure to transmit the social and democratic
values of civic engagement from one generation to the next. This breakdown poses a significant threat to
our tradition as a civil society.
Three years ago, the Council of Michigan Foundations created the K-12 Education in Philanthropy
Project (now known as Learning to Give). The purpose of the project is to perpetuate a civil society by
educating children about the independent sector and to inspire their commitment to private citizen action
intended for the common good. In its initial phase of operations, the Project demonstrated its power to
mobilize the great change agents of American life—our youth. Learning to Give is now seeking
corporate support to launch the program onto the national stage.
Corporate sponsorship will enable us to:
Implement a national dissemination plan to offer schools and communities access to
Learning to Give resources;
Complete and test a comprehensive K-12 curriculum that can be adapted to any
educational environment; and
Build understanding of civic responsibility and individual community service by young people.
Sponsors will be actively and positively associated with a grassroots national movement to create an
enhanced sense of community among our youth. Specifically, Learning to Give will:
Prominently credit sponsors in all print and media materials publicizing the Project;
Acknowledge sponsors as national corporate citizens in hundreds of state and
national venues;
Ensure that sponsors receive branded presence on all multimedia presentations that we develop;
Recognize sponsors for their stewardship role formally and informally at meetings of
national educational and philanthropic organizations;
Credit sponsors with integrating Learning to Give into their employee development
programs; and
Encourage sponsors to participate in Project advisory groups and other affiliated
organizations promoting the Project in the media.
At a time when key traditions important to our way of life are endangered, Learning to Give will transmit
fundamental American values of civic responsibility and community service to our youth. By doing so,
the Project will not only add meaning and abundance to their lives, but will also renew our nation’s
tradition of individual commitment to the common welfare.
For further information, please contact:
Kathryn Agard, Ed.D., Executive Director
Learning to Give
630 Harvey Street • Muskegon, Michigan 49442-2398 • Tel: (231) 767-7206 • Fax: (231) 773-0707
E-Mail: kagard@remc4.k12.mi.us • Website: www.LearningtoGive.org
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Our State of Generosity
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains the records of four Michigan nonprofit organizations: Council of Michigan Foundations, Michigan Nonprofit Association, Michigan Community Service Commission, and the Johnson Center for Philanthropy at GVSU. The documents are compiled by the Johnson Center for Philanthropy, and records document the history of the organizations from the 1960s to the 2010s.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1968-2014
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/515">Our State of Generosity collection, JCPA-04</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy
Council of Michigan Foundations
Michigan Nonprofit Association
Michigan Community Service Commission
Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy
Charities
Philanthropy and Society
Fundraising
Records
Michigan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Council of Michigan Foundations; Michigan Nonprofit Association; Michigan Community Service Commission
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
JCPA-04
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
JCPA-04_CMF-LTG-SP_2001-01_Sponsorship-Opportunity_1
Title
A name given to the resource
Learning to Give 2001-01 sponsorship opportunity 1
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Council of Michigan Foundations. Learning to Give
Description
An account of the resource
Learning to Give 2001-01 sponsorship opportunity 1. Records are compiled in the Our State of Generosity collection by the Johnson Center, along with the files of the Michigan Nonprofit Association (MNA), the Michigan Community Service Commission (MCSC) and the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy. Originals are at the Council of Michigan Foundations.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy
Charities
Philanthropy and Society
Records
Fundraising
Council of Michigan Foundations
Learning to Give
Michigan
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49475
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/515">Our State of Generosity collection, JCPA-04</a>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2001-01
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d949286b6fda0e0398be9fdcfc987b0c.pdf
7adb237269cfb3a9cd5484aaf74677f1
PDF Text
Text
A Sponsorship Opportunity
Three years ago, the Council of Michigan Foundations created a project without precedent to
revolutionize the way students learn about the power of personal giving. The project began in response to
the marked decline in civility in American society, as documented in such works as “Bowling Alone: The
Collapse and Revival of American Community” by Robert D. Putnam.
The project, initially known as the K-12 Education in Philanthropy Project, set out to expand the popular
definition of philanthropy to include the giving of time and talent as well as money by people of all ages
and from all strata of society. At the heart of the project was the desire to educate a new generation of
young people about the value and historic role of the nation’s not-for-profit sector, which includes civic
clubs and volunteer groups of all types.
The visionary nature of the project has uncovered a hunger for education about making individual
contributions. The project has evolved into a movement that can make a vital contribution to America’s
future as a civil society. Already, it has spawned successful courses in philanthropy. The council’s
research identified schools as the only viable conduit for reaching children in all parts of society and all
parts of the country. The goal of the project is to create a demand for its materials and to make all the
material available at little or no cost on an Internet portal.
After its initial three-year phase, which was largely funded by the W.K. Kellogg Foundation, the project
is moving into a bolder phase. It plans to grow nationally and has adopted a new name: Learning To Give.
Much of the needed coursework and many of the supporting materials have been developed during the
research and development period. Many teachers have been trained and plans have been created to train
more on the Web. The first generation website is already on the Internet and will be expanded to serve
teachers, students, parents and communities as the project progress.
The project has formed a not-for-profit entity to oversee the growth of the program, from its initial phase.
Learning To Give is now seeking corporate sponsorship to make the move onto the national stage.
Sponsors will receive the extraordinary benefit of playing a leading role in a national movement to teach
young people the best of American traditions, with the goal of perpetuating a civil society. Sponsorships
will be based on the principles developed for Public Broadcasting System sponsors.
Learning To Give is well established in Michigan. Soon it will move into California. It has been
successfully replicated in courses at an Atlanta prep school and a major private university in the South.
An enormously positive experience is available to the right sponsor.
We invite and urge your participation in this vital undertaking.
For further information, please contact:
Kathryn Agard, Ed.D.
Executive Director
Learning to Give
630 Harvey Street • Muskegon, Michigan 49442-2398
Tel: (231) 767-7206 • Fax: (231) 773-0707
E-Mail: kagard@remc4.k12.mi.us • Website: www.LearningtoGive.org
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Our State of Generosity
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains the records of four Michigan nonprofit organizations: Council of Michigan Foundations, Michigan Nonprofit Association, Michigan Community Service Commission, and the Johnson Center for Philanthropy at GVSU. The documents are compiled by the Johnson Center for Philanthropy, and records document the history of the organizations from the 1960s to the 2010s.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1968-2014
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/515">Our State of Generosity collection, JCPA-04</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy
Council of Michigan Foundations
Michigan Nonprofit Association
Michigan Community Service Commission
Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy
Charities
Philanthropy and Society
Fundraising
Records
Michigan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Council of Michigan Foundations; Michigan Nonprofit Association; Michigan Community Service Commission
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
JCPA-04
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
JCPA-04_CMF-LTG-SP_2001-01_Sponsorship-Opportunity_2
Title
A name given to the resource
Learning to Give 2001-01 sponsorship opportunity 2
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Council of Michigan Foundations. Learning to Give
Description
An account of the resource
Learning to Give 2001-01 sponsorship opportunity 2. Records are compiled in the Our State of Generosity collection by the Johnson Center, along with the files of the Michigan Nonprofit Association (MNA), the Michigan Community Service Commission (MCSC) and the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy. Originals are at the Council of Michigan Foundations.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy
Charities
Philanthropy and Society
Records
Fundraising
Council of Michigan Foundations
Learning to Give
Michigan
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49476
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/515">Our State of Generosity collection, JCPA-04</a>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2001-01
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/aec7c7719400537a214b059d77d51396.pdf
b82597f7114a5650901d6bf10bddf21d
PDF Text
Text
ARCHETECH LLC
4200 Wisconsin Ave. NW
Washington DC 20016
202-966-2830
PROPOSAL
TO
PROVIDE PROFESSIONAL SERVICES
Purpose
The purpose of this proposal by Archetech LLC (AT) is to present the K-12 Education in
Philanthropy Project (EPP) a systematic approach to maximizing business opportunities
in support of and consistent with the project’s mission 1.
This objective is in accord with both the conclusions reached at a Strategic Planning
Meeting of the EPP held on December 7, 1999, chaired by Dr. Russell Mawby, and with
EPP’s goal of planning for the long term teaching of philanthropy beyond grant funding.
Background
In Phase 1 of its business operations, EPP successfully demonstrated the existence of a
market for philanthropy education products and its ability to access the market through
the K-12 educational system. In addition, EPP’s value added approach to teaching
philanthropy by infusing it into existing curriculum was validated in Phase One as a
viable methodology.
In its next stage of development, EPP’s primary business challenge will be to assure the
project’s long term sustainability by commercializing aspects of the project that permit
EPP to transition from grant funding to earned income. This objective needs to be
accomplished without compromising EPP’s current and future not-for-profit franchise
value.
Toward that end, EPP has adopted a business strategy utilizing the World Wide Web as a
primary access and distribution channel for EPP products and services. This business
model positions EPP to:
• maintain and sustain its not-for-profit identity in the short and long term
• generate revenues through commercialization of marketing and distribution
activities
• maintain its operational focus on the design and creation all components of
philanthropy education including lessons, books, learning tools, collateral
materials etc.
• maximize the scale and scope of the project while minimizing exposure to
high level of risks associated with startup businesses.
1 The K-12 Education in Philanthropy Project (EPP) seeks to perpetuate a civil society by the education of
children about the independent sector, and to inspire their commitment to private citizen action intended
for the common good.
�2
PROPOSAL
Archetech LLC will assist EPP to identify strategic partnerships to fund and develop a
philanthropy education vertical portal to serve as a hub for information dissemination and
commerce.
Partnership Criteria
AT will target cornerstone companies for partnership who:
• place a high value on reaching the educational community marketplace
• offer products or services compatible with EPP mission
• offer premier name or branding value to partnership
• premier companies who value stewardship identity
These partnerships will be structured to provide EPP with:
• revenue sharing as a result of advertising and products or services sold
• symbiotic or other non-monetary value such as desired technology or
intellectual property
• new content or other collateral material
AT will not solicit partnerships from any companies that produce or advocate products
that are harmful to children, illegal, discriminate or are deemed inappropriate by social
practice. In addition to its own resources, AT will aggregate and coordinate priority
contact information from the EPP and CMF communities as necessary to expand and
refine project sales activities.
Deliverables
To achieve this objective, Archetech LLC will deliver EPP a mix of professional services
in stages as described below. While this schedule and action plan serves as a starting
point, uncertainties in the development process require the plan to thought of as a fluid
work in progress at all times.
STAGE I
Deliverable 1
Archetech will solicit partnerships with cornerstone companies in the form of joint
venture or licensing arrangement to underwrite:
1. Yr 2000 curriculum content creation - This funding would
allow EPP to accelerate and complete content creation, and
($1 million projected)
2. Stage II business plan development costs - legal, sales, promotion,
travel, professional fees, web site development etc.
($200,000 projected)
�3
Deliverable 2
AT will take the lead (rationale and content) in developing collateral materials necessary
to support Stage I sales and promotional activities including a:
• one page document describing history and progress to date
• two page document describing development plan
• computer PowerPoint sales presentation
Deliverable 3
AT will initiate activities to identify a national strategic partner (service clubs such as
Rotary, Kiwanis or Lions) to promote EPP services and products offerings at the
community level.
Deliverable 4
AT will identify and recommend individuals for membership on a business advisory
board to provide support to various aspects of the project
Deliverable 5
AT will prepare a written report of Stage I activities which will include recommendations
for Stage II activities.
STAGE II
To successfully implement this strategy, a business plan, consistent with the EPP
mission, needs to be developed to guide management near and long-term decisionmaking. This plan would describe in detail:
• how the not-for-profit and for-profit entities will relate to one another
• EPP and partnership Internet marketing strategies including:
1. Market analysis
2. Market research
3. Marketing positioning for various audiences (1 or 2 Web sites?)
4. Competitive analysis
• description of the core functionality of the web site including;
1. How the web site will be integrated with the written curriculum
2. Underwriting support for designing, developing, serving and
maintaining the commercial Web site
• financial projections for the venture
Stage II activities would be triggered by fulfillment of Stage I funding goals.
STAGE III
Stage III activities would operationalize the business plan developed in Stage II.
Time for Performance and Personnel Performing the Work
Archetech estimates performance of Stage I activities will be completed within 120 days
of the date a letter of engagement is executed by the parties. Work will begin
immediately on that date. Messrs. Ed Stone, Paul Baker and Doug Monroe will perform
tasks of the proposal for Archetech LLC unless otherwise mutually agreed, except for
certain secretarial/ administrative functions.
�4
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Our State of Generosity
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains the records of four Michigan nonprofit organizations: Council of Michigan Foundations, Michigan Nonprofit Association, Michigan Community Service Commission, and the Johnson Center for Philanthropy at GVSU. The documents are compiled by the Johnson Center for Philanthropy, and records document the history of the organizations from the 1960s to the 2010s.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1968-2014
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/515">Our State of Generosity collection, JCPA-04</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy
Council of Michigan Foundations
Michigan Nonprofit Association
Michigan Community Service Commission
Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy
Charities
Philanthropy and Society
Fundraising
Records
Michigan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Council of Michigan Foundations; Michigan Nonprofit Association; Michigan Community Service Commission
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
JCPA-04
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
JCPA-04_CMF-LTG-BP_ARCHETECH-Proposal
Title
A name given to the resource
Learning to Give ARCHETECH proposal
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Council of Michigan Foundations. Learning to Give
Description
An account of the resource
Learning to Give ARCHETECH proposal. Records are compiled in the Our State of Generosity collection by the Johnson Center, along with the files of the Michigan Nonprofit Association (MNA), the Michigan Community Service Commission (MCSC) and the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy. Originals are at the Council of Michigan Foundations.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy
Charities
Philanthropy and Society
Records
Fundraising
Council of Michigan Foundations
Learning to Give
Michigan
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49425
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/515">Our State of Generosity collection, JCPA-04</a>
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b92c9892d9b369d3af1d45b803bab9e3.pdf
62b669861a24221537e6ce017e0d7946
PDF Text
Text
Date: September 29, 1998
To:
Dorothy A. Johnson
Russell G. Mawby
From: Kathy Agard
Re:
K-12 Education in Philanthropy Project Budget
I met with Dave Lindberg regarding the core budget for the K-12 Project. The budget
actually looks pretty good. We saved money (a mixed blessing) when some of the
schools were unable to find substitute teachers last fall. This was a "big ticket" item and
was not expensed as planned. We also have been saving money on meetings by meeting
on Saturdays, saving substitute teacher costs, and by meeting at schools rather than
hotels.
We have 18 months left in the Kellogg Grant. The line items as of August are:
Personnel:
17 months of money left, expensed at the current rate
(This does not include raises in April 1999. Also, we may have
contractual issues with Terry and Judy. In their appointment contracts we
may have assured employment through February 2000. These will cause
some minor shrinkage in the total amount available…but worst case we
have from 15-17 months of money for salaries [October 1999].)
Office:
28 months of money left
We have saved because of the Muskegon Area Intermediate School
District (MAISD) and the National Board for Professional Teaching
Standards (NBPTS) offering us inexpensive space. We could transfer
some money from this line item if needed.
Curriculum
Development: We have $182,156 left.
This is the largest budget area and is where all expenses related to the
lesson plans and teachers occur. We will pay for the first round of field
testing from this line item, as well as all teacher meetings, etc. While the
field-testing will be an expensive item, there is a substantial amount of
money left.
Page - 1 -
�Grants:
We have $44,015 left
These are mini-grants given on a matching basis to the project schools to
help defray any expenses associated with service learning or the new
lessons. We have four more grantmaking periods and will probably use
most of this money.
Travel:
We have $13,398 left in travel.
Our presentations at national meetings will begin to eat at this line item.
But we will be able to make it easily until February 1999 when our report
is due and any adjustments can be requested.
Dissemination: We have $16,720 left
We will need to request further funds to cover the newsletter. This
amount will cover the brochures and the initial costs for developing the
newsletter.
Technology:
We have 10,756 left
The Michigan State University (MSU) contract for this year is for
$73,000. I will try to negotiate this down some, and we should start to
think about another alternative for the third year. But, I don't think we can
pull away from MSU yet. We still need their technical support and they
own the computers for another year. At the end of the third year they are
depreciated from MSU's inventory and become legally the property of the
teachers. (MSU has a policy that they will not compete with private
computer vendors. This was one way to accomplish what we requested
without violating their policy.)
An option would be to see if MSU would wave their administrative fee for
this contract this year. Almost half of the contract is the university
overhead.
In short, the budget looks healthier than I had anticipated. The following chart gives
some indication where we are related to the other potential funding.
Cc: David R. Lindberg
Page - 2 -
�Research, Writing, Testing,
Dissemination in Michigan,
Assessment
1997/98 1998/99
1999/2000
2000/2001
PERSONNEL
Kathy
WKKF
WKKF
Anonymous
WKKF
Anonymous
Anonymous
Terry
WKKF
WKKF
WKKF
Anonymous
WKKF
Anonymous
Anonymous
Judy
Linda Frank
Tom Hirsch
Surdna
Lilly
WKKF
Anonymous
WKKF
Anonymous
Surdna
Lilly
Anonymous
McGregor
Skillman
Ford
Lilly
Anonymous
McGregor
Skillman
Ford
Anonymous
Anonymous
McGregor
Skillman
Ford
McGregor
Skillman
WKKF
WKKF
McGregor
Skillman
WKKF
McGregor
Skillman
WKKF
McGregor
Skillman
WKKF
McGregor
Skillman
WKKF
WKKF
WKKF
WKKF
WKKF
WKKF
WKKF
WKKF
WKKF
WKKF
Anonymous
Anonymous
Anonymous
Anonymous
1/2 Time Support and
Parenting
Marketing
OFFICE
LESSONS
Teachers
Minigrants
Library Books
School Grants
Teacher
Meetings
Field Testing
Continued Integration in Michigan on
National Dissemination
2001/2002
Anonymous
Page - 3 -
2002/2003
Continued National Integration,
International Dissemination
2003/2004 2004/2005 2005/2006
�Research, Writing, Testing,
Dissemination in Michigan,
Assessment
National Conf.
Foundation
Lessons
Standards
Software
Continued Integration in Michigan on
National Dissemination
Ford
Ford
Ford
Ford
Ford
Ford
Anonymous
Ford
Ford
Anonymous
Ford
Ford
Anonymous
Ford
Ford
PARENTING
McGregor
Skillman
McGregor
Skillman
McGregor
Skillman
PUBLICATIONS
Ford
Ford
Ford
DISSEMINATION
Mott
WKKF
Mott
WKKF
Mott
COMMUNITY
Mott
Mott
Mott
TEXTBOOK
PLANNING
Mott
Mott
Mott
SERVICE
LEARNING
CONSULTING
Michigan
Deparment
of
Education
Michigan
Deparment
of
Education
Michigan
Deparment
of
Education
INSTITUTES
Train Trainers
McGregor
Skillman
Page - 4 -
Continued National Integration,
International Dissemination
�EVALUATION
Research, Writing, Testing,
Dissemination in Michigan,
Assessment
Lilly
Lilly
Lilly
McGregor
McGregor
Skillman
Skillman
Continued Integration in Michigan on
National Dissemination
Continued National Integration,
International Dissemination
Skillman
McGregor
COMPUTERS
WKKF
WKKF
WKKF
RANDOM
INCOME
CMU
CMU
CMU
CMU
Teachers'
dues
Teachers'
dues
Ford
Teachers'
dues
While there is partial funding requested from each of the funders listed by line item, not every line item will be fully funded even if
the requested grant funds are received.
Other funding possibilities are:
Kauffman
Packard
Return to Carnegie?
Lilly Endowment in the Spring
Department of Education
Corporate Funders?
Ameritech
Page - 5 -
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Our State of Generosity
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains the records of four Michigan nonprofit organizations: Council of Michigan Foundations, Michigan Nonprofit Association, Michigan Community Service Commission, and the Johnson Center for Philanthropy at GVSU. The documents are compiled by the Johnson Center for Philanthropy, and records document the history of the organizations from the 1960s to the 2010s.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1968-2014
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/515">Our State of Generosity collection, JCPA-04</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy
Council of Michigan Foundations
Michigan Nonprofit Association
Michigan Community Service Commission
Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy
Charities
Philanthropy and Society
Fundraising
Records
Michigan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Council of Michigan Foundations; Michigan Nonprofit Association; Michigan Community Service Commission
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
JCPA-04
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
JCPA-04_CMF-LTG_1998-09-29_Internal-Financial-Report
Title
A name given to the resource
Learning to Give 1998-09-29 internal financial report
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Council of Michigan Foundations. Learning to Give
Description
An account of the resource
Learning to Give 1998-09-29 internal financial report. Records are compiled in the Our State of Generosity collection by the Johnson Center, along with the files of the Michigan Nonprofit Association (MNA), the Michigan Community Service Commission (MCSC) and the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy. Originals are at the Council of Michigan Foundations.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy
Charities
Philanthropy and Society
Records
Fundraising
Council of Michigan Foundations
Learning to Give
Michigan
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/515">Our State of Generosity collection, JCPA-04</a>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1998-09-29
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a240b1c6c28af1b6180f740de9172591.pdf
dd47715f5817e1d5ad8f0d66f7b541fe
PDF Text
Text
Council of Michigan Foundations
K-12 Education in Philanthropy Project
Plan of Work
Goals, Objectives, Staff Assignments
Fall 1999
WORK PLAN AND PROGRAM DETAIL
i
�Council of Michigan Foundations
K-12 Education in Philanthropy Project
Draft Plan of Work
Goals, Objectives, Staff Assignments
Fall 1999
Program Goals:
1.
2.
3.
4.
Curriculum Development and Lesson Plans
Teacher Professional Development
School Improvement
Parents Involvement, Youth Groups, and Congregations
Support Goals:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
Related Systems
Dissemination
Public Relations and Marketing
Self-Sufficiency/Funding
Steering Committee/Governance/Staffing
Evaluation
ii
�Overview
Mission and Goals
MISSION
The K-12 Education in Philanthropy Project will help perpetuate a civil society through the education of children about the independent sector, and will achieve their commitment to private
citizen action for the public good.
PROGRAM GOALS
1. Curriculum Development and Lesson Plans: Develop an original K-12 curriculum to be infused into the core academic curriculum of schools. The curriculum will teach children about
philanthropy and will inspire them to continue as active volunteers and citizens.
2. Teacher Professional Development: Orient practicing and new teachers to the philanthropy curriculum, encourage their writing of additional lesson plans, and assist them in developing
expertise in teaching philanthropy.
3. School Improvement: Work with school systems to promote school improvement through encouraging school-community-parent interaction and in implementing experiential educational
opportunities in the community.
4. Parent Involvement, Youth Groups, and Congregations: Develop and implement programs with parents, schools, youth groups, and religious congregations to support and extend the
teaching of philanthropy within the full ecology of a child's life.
SUPPORT GOALS
1. Related Systems: Develop and collaborate on strengthening related systems that support the teaching of philanthropy to the next generation.
2. Dissemination: Disseminate the teaching of philanthropy in Michigan, nationally, and internationally.
3. Public Relations and Marketing: Provide ongoing public relations and marketing visibility to key educational and philanthropic audiences in Michigan, across the nation, and
internationally.
4. Self-Sufficiency/Funding: Develop and implement a plan to make the project self-sufficient by 2010.
5. Steering Committee/Governance/Staffing: Continue Steering Committee leadership and involvement in the project planning and in implementation. Build professional resources to
accomplish the tasks assigned
6. Evaluation: Implement and report on appropriate evaluation for the project.
iii
�Summary
GOALS and OBJECTIVES
Program Goals
1.
Curriculum Development and Lesson Plans
Develop an original K-12 curriculum to be infused into the core academic curriculum of schools. The curriculum will teach children about philanthropy and will
inspire them to continue as active volunteers and citizens.
Develop and Increase the Lesson Pool
Complete the Curriculum Themes
Complete the Standardized Assessment
Develop and Increase Teacher Support Materials
Develop and Increase Student Support Materials
Infuse the Curriculum in Michigan
Complete Responsibilities for Phase I
2.
Teacher Professional Development
Orient practicing and new teachers to the philanthropy curriculum, encourage their writing of additional lesson plans, and assist them in developing expertise in
teaching philanthropy.
Summer Residential Institutes
Teacher Consultants
Michigan I.S.D. Consultants
Teachers of Philanthropy Membership Association
Colleges of Education
Discipline Based University Courses
Centers on Philanthropy/Colleges of Education
K-16 Philanthropy Education Teachers' Fellowship Program
Teachers' Fellowship
Summer Student Internships
Teacher Development Videos
3.
School Improvement
Work with school systems to promote school improvement through encouraging school-community-parent interaction and in implementing experiential educational
opportunities in the community.
4.
Parent Involvement, School Improvement, Youth Groups, and Congregations
2
�Develop and implement programs with parents, schools, youth groups, and religious congregations to support and extend the teaching of philanthropy within the
full ecology of a child's life.
Parent Involvement
Youth Groups
Religious Congregation
Support Goals
1. Related Systems
Develop and collaborate on strengthening related systems that support the teaching of philanthropy to the next generation
Local Advisory Committees
Service-Learning
2. Dissemination
Disseminate the teaching of philanthropy in Michigan, nationally, and internationally.
Indiana Education Initiative
Youth Educators Institute
Advanced Seminars
Ten Key States
Ten Key Nations
Curriculum "Kits"
Web-site Dissemination
CD-ROM Dissemination
Sponsorship
Localized Dissemination
Journal
Dissemination Conference
Conference and Speakers
Endorsement and Inclusion
3. Public Relations and Marketing
Provide ongoing public relations and marketing visibility to key educational and philanthropic audiences in Michigan, across the nation, and internationally.
Newsletter
Membership Organization
Conferences
3
�Web-site
Publications
Article Placement
Video
General Media
4. Self-Sufficiency/Funding
Develop and implement a plan to make the project self-sufficient by 2010.
5. Steering Committee/Governance/Staff Resources
Continue Steering Committee leadership and involvement in the project implementation. Build professional resources to accomplish the tasks assigned.
Office Space
Additional Staff
Consultant Pool
Volunteers
Internships
Graduate Student Research
CMF Support
6. Evaluation
Implement and report on appropriate evaluation for the project
4
�GOALS AND OBJECTIVES DETAIL
1.
Curriculum Development and Lesson Plans
Develop an original K-12 curriculum, to be infused into the core academic curriculum of schools. The curriculum will teach children about philanthropy and will
inspire them to continue as active volunteers and citizens.
Objectives:
Develop and Increase the Lesson Pool
Involve practicing classroom teachers in research, writing, pilot-testing, field-testing and approving an ever-expanding pool of high quality original classroom lessons,
K-12, that teach the four new themes of philanthropy education. Assure that each lesson ties directly into the Standards and Benchmarks currently promulgated for
educators and that they can be infused into the academic core curriculum of a variety of public and private.
Complete at least two lessons for each grade-level component of the four curriculum themes.
Complete the Curriculum Themes
Refine and publish an initial K-12 Philanthropy Curriculum organized around four themes, with learning objectives specified at grades 5, 8, and 11. The four themes
to be developed are:
A. Defining the Philanthropic Sector
B. Philanthropy and Civil Society
C. Philanthropy and the Individual
D. Skills and Experience in Volunteerism and Service.
Complete the Standardized Assessment
Write, pilot-test, field-test, and set benchmarks for standardized assessment tools of student learning about philanthropy at grades 5, 8, and 11. Finalize and distribute
three different test booklets at each of the grade levels. Develop and implement a process for scoring and reporting.
5
�Develop and Increase Teacher Support Materials
Develop and disseminate high quality, K-12 focused, teacher support materials related directly to the expectations of the new curriculum and support the lessons.
This includes:
A. Briefing papers regarding the body of knowledge about philanthropy
B. "Textbook"-like resources at early elementary, late elementary, middle school and high school
C. Arts related media support including original music, drama, and analysis of literature
D. Teacher oriented support materials such as models, bibliographies, and lexicons
E. Work with other teacher discipline organizations (Michigan Geographic Alliance, Economics America etc).
Infuse the Curriculum in Michigan
Provide incentive grants for a curriculum coordinator and materials for six school districts to infuse the lessons (K-2), (3-5),
(6-8), and (9-12).
Document this process for replication in other schools and states.
Complete responsibilities for Phase I.
2.
Teacher Professional Development
Orient practicing and new teachers to the philanthropy curriculum, encourage their writing of additional lesson plans, and assist them in developing expertise in
teaching philanthropy.
Objectives:
Summer Residential Institutes
Provide week-long summer residential institutes for teachers new to teaching philanthropy
Summer 1999
One institute in Michigan for 30 teachers
Summer 2000
Two institutes in Michigan for 50 teachers each (100 teachers total)
One institute outside of Michigan for 50 teachers
Summer 2001
Three institutes in Michigan for 50 teachers each (total of 150 teachers)
Four institutes outside of Michigan for 50 teachers each (100 teachers)
Summer 2002
One Advanced Institute for Experienced Philanthropy Teachers
Three basic institutes for 50 Michigan teachers
Eight institutes outside of Michigan
Summer 2003
One Advanced Institute for Experienced Philanthropy Teachers
Three basic institutes for 50 Michigan teachers
Sixteen institutes outside of Michigan
6
�Four Advanced Institutes outside of Michigan
Provide week-long summer institutes for arts educators on teaching philanthropy and service-learning
Summer 2000
One institute for 15 teachers in Michigan
Summer 2001
One institute for 15 teachers in Indiana
Summer 2001
One institute for 30 teachers in Michigan
Summer 2001
One institute for 50 teachers in Michigan
Summer 2002
One institute for 30 teachers in Indiana
Summer 2002
One institute for 15 teachers in two other states
Teacher Consultants
Initiate a new Teacher-Consultant pool composed of successful original project teachers, and successful graduates of the summer institutes. Each Teacher-Consultant
will provide three in-service professional development experiences to colleagues each year.
Michigan Intermediate School District Consultants
Support ten regional consultants housed at Intermediate School Districts as consultants on philanthropy education and service learning for the schools within their
regional service area (2000-2003).
Teachers of Philanthropy Membership Association
Initiate an international "Teachers of Philanthropy" organization to provide ongoing materials and support to teachers interested in continuing professional
development related to teaching philanthropy.
1) The Teachers of Philanthropy organization will hold one state conference in 2000
2) One state conference, and one national conference in 2001 and thereafter
3) The Teachers of Philanthropy organization will have a newsletter, and journal.
Colleges of Education
Involve each of the major teacher education colleges in research related to the K-12 project. Develop an elective course in philanthropy education for pre-service
teachers.
Discipline Based University Courses
Involve each of the social studies discipline organizations at the college level (economics, geography, government (political science), and history) in writing K-12
resource materials for teachers. Encourage the development of discipline based courses for majors that will include pre-service teachers.
Centers on Philanthropy/Colleges of Education
7
� Encourage national university based Centers on Philanthropy to work together with their teacher colleges in joint courses regarding teaching philanthropy.
K-16 Philanthropy Education in Michigan
Develop a joint proposal with Campus Compact regarding the K-16 implementation of service learning that includes the philanthropy content as the academic
component.
Teachers' Fellowship Program
Develop and institute a Philanthropy Teachers' Fellowship Program for four Michigan teachers each year (one from each
grade band)
2000 At Indiana Center on Philanthropy
2001 At Indiana Center on Philanthropy and the Center on Philanthropy at Grand Valley State University
(eight fellowships)
Fellows will be required to research, write, and produce original teacher support material that extend the teaching of philanthropy K-12.
Summer Student Internships
Hire pre-service teachers who have demonstrated potential for leadership in education as summer interns to the project.
Teacher Development, Videos
Develop videos at each of the four grade levels as a teacher development tool
3.
School Improvement: Work with school systems to promote school improvement through encouraging school-community-parent interaction and in implementing experiential
educational opportunities in the community.
Objectives:
Identify the major school improvement efforts currently in favor in Michigan. Analyze the ties to philanthropy education.
Become involved in school improvement oriented organizations and efforts in Michigan. Look for opportunities to infuse the philanthropy curriculum.
4.
Parent Involvement, Youth Groups, and Congregations
Develop and implement programs with parents, schools, youth groups, and religious congregations to support and extend the teaching of philanthropy within the
full ecology of a child's life.
8
�Objectives:
Parent Involvement
Research, develop, field-test and implement a thoughtful strategy and materials for parent involvement in their children's education, particularly around the teaching
of philanthropy.
Continue to connect with major school improvement efforts such as the Middle-Start program, Character Counts, service learning, school-to-work, Comer Schools,
the Schools of the Twenty-first Century, and the Mott after-school program.
Youth Groups
Research, develop, and implement the youth group strategies developed by Community Partnerships with Youth (a component of the Habits of the Heart project) in
the seven youth development partner organizations and others throughout Michigan.
Provide mini-grants to youth groups.
Religious Congregations
Research, develop, and implement the religious congregations strategies developed by the Search Institute (a component of the Habits of the Heart project) in
religious congregations throughout Michigan.
Provide mini-grants to congregations.
Support Goals
1.
Related Systems
Develop and collaborate on strengthening related systems that support the teaching of philanthropy to the next generation
Objectives:
Local Advisory Committees
Develop and strengthen local advisory committees to philanthropy education, including community foundations, United Ways, business partnerships, and volunteer
centers. Collaborate with other initiatives such as school-to work, and Communities in Schools.
Provide an incentive to Youth Advisory Committees of community foundations to encourage adoption of the new lessons.
Service-Learning
Participate in strengthening and extending service learning as a teaching tool in Michigan schools
9
�A.
B.
C.
D.
E.
F.
G.
H.
2.
build on the 1999 survey of the status of service-learning
build and extend the utilization of the service-learning web-site
provide direct technical assistance to teachers in selected schools systems
involve Learn and SERVE grantee schools in the Summer Institute
continue professional development of service-learning school coordinators through the Summer Institute
require each philanthropy unit to offer a service-learning component
active involvement in issues of public policy in Michigan related to service-learning
collaborate on a statewide youth workshop drawing together the youth volunteer systems in Michigan.
Dissemination
Disseminate the teaching of philanthropy in Michigan, nationally, and internationally.
Objectives:
Indiana Education Initiative
In cooperation with the Indiana Humanities Council and the Habits of the Heart project, develop and implement a strategy for infusing the teaching of philanthropy
into school systems in the State of Indiana.
Youth Education Institute
In cooperation with the Indiana Center on Philanthropy through the Habits of the Heart project, provide a series of summer institutes called "Youth Educator
Institute". Participants would come as community teams composed of school teachers, religious instructors, youth group leaders, community leaders, and parents to
be trained as teams on how a community can intentionally transmit the philanthropic tradition.
A. Summer 2000 at Indiana University
B. Summer 2001 at Indiana University
C. Summer 2002 at Indiana University
Replicated at a Michigan university
Replicated at a partner state university.
Advanced Seminars
Advanced seminars on philanthropy for all youth educators (teachers, religious instructors, community leaders, parents, and youth workers)
A. Summer 2001 at Indiana University
B. Summer 2002 at Indiana University
C. Summer 2002 at a Michigan University
Ten Key States
10
�Identify and organize statewide leadership to replicate all of the components of the K-12 Education in Philanthropy project in 10 states in the United States. Utilize
multiple networks such as community, private, corporate, and family foundations; educational professional organizations; universities; and the State Service
Commissions.
A. 2000-2001 add three states
B. 2001-2002 add three states
C. 2003-2003 add four states.
Ten Key Nations
Identify and organize national leadership to replicate all of the components of the K-12 Education in Philanthropy project in 10 nations: 4 in Europe and the former
Soviet-bloc nations, 2 in Africa, 2 in South America, 2 in Asia.
A. work in collaboration with international funders such as private foundations, and the International Youth Foundation, CIVICUS, and the European Foundation
Center
B. utilize the internet as an international communications vehicle
C. research, write, pilot-test, and field-test lessons and assessment instruments that translate into the cultures of the nation's with an interest in teaching
philanthropy.
Curriculum "Kits"
Develop and publish curriculum "kits" for individual schools and teachers interested in implementing the curriculum and lessons.
Web-site Dissemination
A. disseminate individual lessons and teacher support materials through the web-site for ease of access throughout the world.
B. connect web-site with colleague web-sites in Indiana (Habits of the Heart, Community Partnerships with Youth, Indiana University Center on Philanthropy).
C. Where to put it.
CD ROM Dissemination
Develop and disseminate the pool of lessons, curriculum themes, and teacher support materials via CD-ROM for ease in mailing and distribution.
Sponsorship
Develop a relationship with a long-term sponsor for the project. An organization with an international reach and local memberships throughout the world such as the
Rotary, Kiwanis, or other service organization.
11
� Localized Dissemination
Develop and implement a local, geographic strategy for disseminating the project and for the professional development and support of the classroom teachers.
A. Develop the local approach in Calhoun County, Michigan
B. Use the Intermediate School District Consultants in Michigan
C. Test the local approach throughout the counties in Michigan
D. Pilot the strategy in the initial 10 states
E. Pilot the strategy internationally.
Journal
Publish a Journal of K-12 Philanthropy on a semi-annual basis. Develop a "juried" process for submission and acceptance that assures a high quality to the materials
made available.
Dissemination Conference
Hold a dissemination conference in 2003 for educators from throughout the world.
Conference and Speaker Circuit
A. Attend and present materials regarding the philanthropy curriculum at all key educational and philanthropic conferences in Michigan and across the United
States. Utilize the teacher-consultants as authentic presenters at these meetings. Utilize Steering Committee members as keynote speakers.
B. Plan with Indiana partners joint presentations to identified audiences with interests common to all project participants such as: Independent Sector, Society for
Experiential Learning, CIVICUS, etc. Each area will present individually to groups organized specifically in their areas of interest (education, religion, youth
development, graduate philanthropy education), humanities councils).
Endorsement and Inclusion
Seek the formal endorsement of the key educational and philanthropic organizations in Michigan, in each state, and across the United States. Engage these
organizations in the dissemination of the project ideas and materials.
3.
Public Relations and Marketing
Provide ongoing public relations and marketing visibility to key educational and philanthropic audiences in Michigan, across the nation, and internationally. (*
Items are important, others are either we publish or we don't items).
Objectives:
Newsletter*
Implement a quarterly newsletter with substance
Conferences
12
� Develop, implement, and monitor presentations at all key conferences and seminars
Publications
Publish and promote sales of lessons, curriculum themes, background papers, teacher support materials, Journal, institute materials, bookmarks, and other materials of
the project
Article Placement
Place articles in key, strategic, newsletters, journals, and the publications of other organizations
Video
Develop a short high quality video about the project
Develop with the Indiana partners a video on all components of the project
General Media*
Develop and implement strategies with the state and national general media including print, public radio, public television, and commercial television
4.
Self-Sufficiency/Funding
Develop and implement a plan to make the project self-sufficient by 2010.
Objectives:
Income Sources
Membership Fees
Publications and Royalties
Sponsorships
Web-site Income
Project Grants
Institute Fees
Government Contracts
Tuition splitting with Universities
Endowment Income
Scoring and Reporting of Standardized Tests
Fellowships
Professional Development Conference Fees
Fees from Schools on Implementation
13
�5.
Steering Committee/Governance/ Staff Resources
Continue Steering Committee leadership and involvement in the project implementation. Build professional resources to accomplish the tasks assigned.
Continue with key committees and assignments
Utilize Steering Committee members as speakers and presenters
Office Space
Solve issues of office space
Additional Staff
Add staff as needed and funded
Consultant Pool
Utilize a pool of consultants as adjunct staff for special services.
Volunteers
Utilize volunteers, students, "Teach for America", and Americorps/Vista workers
Internships
Utilize summer internships
Graduate Student Research
Utilize graduate student assistance on research needs.
CMF Support
Provide for support costs from CMF President, Vice President-Finance, Accountant, Auditor, Public Relations
6. Evaluation
Implement and report on appropriate evaluation for the project
Formative and regular reporting
Summative (Michigan and Habits of the Heart)
Longitudinal
14
�Fall 1999 Work Plan
Program Goals
GOAL 1: CURRICULUM DEVELOPMENT AND LESSON PLANS
L = Responsible to lead accomplishment of Task
C = Must be consulted
I = Should be informed
NI = Not Involved
= Potential Revenue Stream
Develop an original K-12 curriculum to be infused into the core academic curriculum of schools. The curriculum will teach children about philanthropy
and will inspire them to continue as active volunteers and citizens.
Objectives:
Develop and Increase the Lesson Pool
Involve practicing classroom teachers in research, writing, pilot testing, field-testing and approving an ever-expanding pool of high quality original classroom lessons,
K-12, that teach the four new themes of philanthropy education. Assure that each lesson ties directly into the Standards and Benchmarks currently promulgated for
educators and that they can be infused into the academic core curriculum of a variety of public and private schools.
Complete at least two lessons for each grade level component of the curriculum themes.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
100 approved lessons with all the standards inserted-Terry final
approval on standards
100 approved lessons final edit, and design
I
L
C
I
I
August 1999
C
C
L
I
I
Sept. 1999
High school approved lessons on web site
I
I
L
I
I
Sept. 1999
Middle school approved lessons on web site
I
I
L
I
I
Sept. 1999
Elementary school approved lessons on web site
I
I
L
I
I
Oct. 1999
Printing of lessons for formal publication and sale/marketing plan
C
C
L
C
C
Nov. 1999
Assure 100 piloted lessons ready for Sept 1999 field-test as units
I
L
I
C
C
Sept. 1999
100 piloted lessons prepared for field-testing
I
L
I
C
I
Sept. 1999
C
C
I
L
I
August 1999
Increase
Preparation of field-test
expectations)
packet
(cover
letter,
evaluation,
1
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
�ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
Field-testing of 100 approved lessons, and 100 piloted lessons until
3-5 evaluations received of each unit (Mailing, tracking,
stipend, thank you notes)
Analysis of returned evaluations of field-tested lessons
I
I
I
C
L
I
I
I
L
I
Sept.
1999
Mailed/
June 2000 Done
June 2000
50 new units for piloted in classrooms in the fall of 1999
C
L
I
C
I
Sept-Dec. 1999
Teacher volunteers for economics units
I
L
I
I
I
Sept 1999
Teacher training for economics units (schedule training,
expectations for finishing)
Scheduling and providing due dates for a normal rhythm for future
developing, piloting, field-testing, approval, and placement of
new lessons
Schedule and hold Fairness Review Committee Meetings on
Lessons as appropriate
Assure at least two units are approved for each learning expectation
in the themes
Schedule and hold Curriculum Committee Meetings to approve
units for adoption prior to Steering Committee meetings
I
L
I
I
I
Fall 1999
C
L
C
C
C
December
1999 Forward
C
C
I
L
I
As needed
C
L
I
C
I
June 2003
C
L
I
C
I
April of each year
2001-2002
2002-2003
Complete the Curriculum Themes
Refine and publish an initial K-12 Philanthropy Curriculum organized around four themes, with learning objectives specified at grades 5, 8, and 11. The four themes to be developed are:
A. Defining the Philanthropic Sector
B. Philanthropy and Civil Society
C. Philanthropy and the Individual
D. Skills and Experience in Volunteerism and Service.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
Final draft of themes ready for publication
L
C
C
C
C
Sept. 1999
Put themes on the web-site and publish
C
C
L
I
I
Oct. 1999
Question items realigned to new edited version of the themes
L
C
C
C
C
Sept. 1999
Approved lessons coded to the outcome items in the themes/holes
identified
C
L
I
C
I
Sept. 1999
Field-testing lessons coded to the outcome items in the themes/holes
identified
C
L
I
C
I
Sept. 1999
Pilot lessons coded to the outcome items in the themes/holes
identified
C
L
I
C
I
Sept. 1999
2
2001-2002
2002-2003
�Indiana University background papers coded to the themes
L
C
C
C
I
Sept. 1999
Mini-grants to academic researchers to write further briefing papers
L
C
C
C
I
June 2000
Complete the Standardized Assessment
Write, pilot-test, field-test, and set benchmarks for standardized assessment tools of student learning about philanthropy at grades 5, 8, and 11. Finalize and distribute three different test
booklets at each of the grade levels. Develop and implement a process for scoring and reporting.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
Staff item and test development committee of teachers
I
C
I
L
I
2001-2002
2002-2003
Sept-June 1999
Develop and Increase Teacher Support Materials
Develop and disseminate high quality, K-12 focused, teacher support materials related directly to the expectations of the new curriculum and support the lessons. This includes:
A. Briefing papers regarding the body of knowledge about philanthropy
B. "Textbook"-like resources at early elementary, late elementary, middle school and high school
C. Arts related media support including original music, drama, and analysis of literature
D. Teacher oriented support materials such as models, bibliographies, and lexicons.
E. Work with other teacher discipline organizations.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Briefing Papers
Universitie
s
Dr. Joe
Stoltm
an
Rick Kelly
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
"Textbook"
Original Children's Music
Original High School Drama
Analysis of Literature
Teacher Materials
Dr. Ed
Uehlin
g
Consultant
s
3
2001-2002
2002-2003
�Develop and Increase Student Support Materials
Develop and disseminate high quality, K-12 focused books, CD-ROMs, and materials for students directly related to the content and expectations of the new curriculum. This includes:
A. Student oriented classroom materials such as visual timelines, and photographs
B. Original storybooks, poems, drama, and music.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
CD-ROM of Lessons and Themes
Timelines
Photographs
Biographies
Historic Events
Student developed storybooks, poems
Infuse the Curriculum in Michigan
Provide incentive grants for a curriculum coordinator and materials for six school districts to infuse the lessons (K-2) (3-5), (6-8), and (9-12).
Document this process for replication in other schools and states.
Complete responsibilities for Phase I.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
Select six school districts
Offer incentive grants
Provide staff in-service development
Infuse into the school's social studies curriculum an articulated set
of lessons
Publish the results as case studies
4
2001-2002
2002-2003
�GOAL 2: TEACHER PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT
Orient practicing and new teachers to the philanthropy curriculum, encourage their writing of additional lesson plans, and assist them in developing
expertise in teaching philanthropy.
Objectives:
Summer Residential Institutes
Provide week-long summer residential institutes for teachers new to teaching philanthropy
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
Summer 1999-One institute in Michigan for 30 teachers
Summer 2000-Two institutes in Michigan for 50 teachers each (100
teachers total)
One institute outside of Michigan for 50 teachers
Summer 2001:Three institutes in Michigan for 50 teachers each
(total of 150 teachers)
Four institutes outside of Michigan for 50 teachers each (100
teachers)
Summer 2002
One Advanced Institute for Experienced
Philanthropy Teachers
Three basic institutes for 50 Michigan teachers
Eight institutes outside of Michigan
Summer 2003: One Advanced Institute for Experienced Philanthropy
Teachers
Three basic institutes for 50 Michigan
Teachers
Sixteen institutes outside of Michigan
Four Advanced Institutes outside of Michigan
Provide week-long summer institutes for arts educators on teaching philanthropy and service-learning
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
Summer 2000:One institute for 15 teachers in Michigan
5
2001-2002
2002-2003
�Summer 2001: One institute for 15 teachers in Indiana
Summer 2001: One institute for 30 teachers in Michigan
Summer 2001: One institute for 50 teachers in Michigan
Summer 2002: One institute for 30 teachers in Indiana
Summer 2002: One institute for 15 teachers in two other states
Teacher Consultants
Initiate a new Teacher-Consultant pool composed of successful original project teachers, and successful graduates of the summer institutes. Each Teacher-Consultant will provide three inservice professional development experiences to colleagues each year.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
Teacher Consultants
Organize teacher-consultants in Michigan
C
L
I
C
I
WKKF
I
Sept. 1999
Forward
Sept. 1999
Forward
Sept. 1999
Identify teacher-consultants including those to be dropped from
current teacher pool
Policy on teacher-consultants work for CMF
C
L
I
C
I
C
L
I
C
Manual for teacher-consultants
L
C
I
C
I
Sept. 1999
Policy to Steering Committee
L
C
I
WKKF
C
I
Sept. 1999
Teacher-consultant pay and paperwork
C
C
I
I
L
L
I
I
I
C
L
I
I
I
Sept. 1999
Forward
Sept. 1999
Forward
Sept. 1999
Schedule teacher-consultants within budget /approve presentations
at schools, ISD's, workshops and conferences
Presentation materials (initial program)
C
Replenish materials and supplies
I
I
I
I
L
Annual teacher-consultant advisory committee
C
L
I
I
I
WKKF
WKKF
Sept. 1999
Forward
Sept 1999
Michigan Intermediate School District Consultants
Support ten regional consultants housed at Intermediate School Districts as consultants on philanthropy education and service learning for the schools within their regional service area
(2000-2003).
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
6
2001-2002
2002-2003
�ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
Teachers of Philanthropy Membership Association
Initiate an international "Teachers of Philanthropy" organization to provide ongoing materials and support to teachers interested in continuing professional development related to teaching
philanthropy.
A.
B.
C.
ACTIVITY
The Teachers of Philanthropy organization will hold one state conference in 2000
One state conference, and one national conference in 2001 and thereafter
The Teachers of Philanthropy organization will have a newsletter, and journal.
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
Colleges of Education
Involve each of the major teacher education colleges in research related to the K-12 project. Develop an elective course in philanthropy education for pre-service teachers.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
Discipline Based University Courses
Involve each of the social studies discipline organizations at the college level (economics, geography, government (political science), and history) in writing K-12 resource materials for
teachers. Encourage the development of discipline based courses for majors that will include pre-service teachers.
7
�ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
Centers on Philanthropy/Colleges of Education
Encourage national university based Centers on Philanthropy to work together with their teacher colleges in joint courses regarding teaching philanthropy.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
K-16 Philanthropy Education in Michigan
Develop a joint proposal with Campus Compact regarding the K-16 implementation of service learning that includes the philanthropy content as the academic component.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
Teachers' Fellowship Program
Develop and institute a Philanthropy Teachers' Fellowship Program for four Michigan teachers each year (one from each
grade band)
2002
2003
At Indiana Center on Philanthropy
At Indiana Center on Philanthropy and the Center on Philanthropy at Grand Valley State University
(eight fellowships)
Fellows will be required to research, write, and produce original teacher support material that extend the teaching of philanthropy K-12
8
2001-2002
2002-2003
�ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
Summer Student Internships
Hire pre-service teachers who have demonstrated potential for leadership in education as summer interns to the project.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
Teacher Development, Videos
Develop videos at each of the four grade levels as a teacher development tool
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
9
2001-2002
2002-2003
�GOAL 3: SCHOOL IMPROVEMENT
Work with school systems to promote school improvement through encouraging school-community-parent interactions and in implementing experiential
educational opportunities in the community.
Continue to connect with major school improvement efforts such as the middle-start program, Character Counts, service learning, school-to-work.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
10
2001-2002
2002-2003
�GOAL 4: PARENT INVOLVEMENT, YOUTH GROUPS, AND CONGREGATIONS
Develop and implement programs with parents, schools, youth groups, and religious congregations to support and extend the teaching of philanthropy
within he full ecology of a child's life.
Objectives:
Parent Involvement
Research, develop, field-test and implement a thoughtful strategy and materials for parent involvement in their children's education, particularly around the teaching of philanthropy.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2002-2003
Infuse the philanthropy curriculum and service learning into the core social studies academic curriculum of Michigan schools.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2001-2002
2002-2003
Continue to connect with major school improvement efforts such as the Middle-Start program, Character Counts, service learning, school-to-work, Comer Schools, the Schools of the
Twenty-first Century, and the Mott after-school program.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
11
2001-2002
2002-2003
�Youth Groups
Research, develop, and implement the youth group strategies developed by Community Partnerships with Youth (a component of the Habits of the Heart project) in the seven youth
development partner organizations and others throughout Michigan.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
Provide mini-grants to youth groups.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
Religious Congregations
Research, develop, and implement the religious congregations strategies developed by the Search Institute (a component of the Habits of the Heart project) in religious congregations
throughout Michigan.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
Provide mini-grants to congregations.
12
2001-2002
2002-2003
�ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
13
2001-2002
2002-2003
�GOAL: CURRICULUM DEVELOPMENT AND LESSON PLANS
Develop an original K-12 curriculum, to be infused into the core academic curriculum of schools. The curriculum will teach children about philanthropy
and will inspire them to continue as active volunteers and citizens.
Objectives:
Local Advisory Committees
Develop and strengthen local advisory committees to philanthropy education, including community foundations, United Ways, business partnerships, and volunteer centers. Collaborate
with other initiatives such as school-to work, and Communities in Schools.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
Provide an incentive to Youth Advisory Committees of community foundations to encourage adoption of the new lessons.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
Service-Learning
Participate in strengthening and extending service-learning as a teaching tool in Michigan schools
A.
B.
C.
D.
E.
F.
G.
H.
build on the 1999 survey of the status of service-learning
build and extend the utilization of the service-learning web-site
provide direct technical assistance to teachers in selected schools systems
involve Learn and SERVE grantee schools in the Summer Institute
continue professional development of service-learning school coordinators through the Summer Institute
require each philanthropy unit to offer a service-learning component
active involvement in issues of public policy in Michigan related to service-learning
collaborate on a statewide youth workshop drawing together the youth volunteer systems in Michigan.
14
2001-2002
2002-2003
�ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
Survey
Finalize State Survey
L
NI
C
NI
NI
September 1999
Print and Distribute Survey
C
NI
L
I
C
September 1999
Develop and distribute PowerPoint of results
C
NI
L
I
NI
September 1999
Decide on next data steps
L
C
C
C
NI
October 1999
Finish MDE web site and Listserv
I
I
L
I
NI
August 1999
Complete grant to Jackson and pay
I
I
L
NI
C
August 1999
Arrange for continuation grant with MDE
C
I
L
NI
NI
August 1999
Make second grant to new grantee(s)
C
I
L
NI
NI
August 1999
Lego's permission for MDE graphics
I
NI
L
NI
NI
August 1999
Lego's explanation on web site
I
NI
L
NI
NI
August 1999
Spring Report
L
C
NI
NI
NI
July 1999
Next Grant request
L
C
NI
NI
NI
July 1999
Billing issue resolved
L
NI
NI
NI
NI
July 1999
Connie Jones/Other consultants
L
C
NI
NI
NI
September 1999
Aspen Research Application
L
NI
NI
C
NI
September 1999
WKKF Grant/CMF
L
NI
NI
NI
NI
September 1999
Support Letter to MDE
L
NI
NI
NI
NI
August 1999
Policy Meeting follow-up
L
I
NI
I
NI
September 1999
State plan and follow-up
L
I
NI
I
NI
September 1999
Web site
Service-learning, TA
Service-learning Leadership Council
15
2001-2002
2002-2003
�GOAL: TEACHER PROFESSIONAL DELOPMENT
Orient practicing and new teachers to the philanthropy curriculum, encourage their writing of additional lesson plans, and assist them in developing
expertise in teaching philanthropy.
Objectives:
Indiana Education Initiative
In cooperation with the Indiana Humanities Council and the Habits of the Heart project, develop and implement a strategy for infusing the teaching of philanthropy into school systems in
the State of Indiana.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2002-2003
Youth Education Institute
In cooperation with the Indiana Center on Philanthropy through the Habits of the Heart project, provide a series of summer institutes called "Youth Educator Institute". Participants
would come as community teams composed of schoolteachers, religious instructors, youth group leaders, community leaders, and parents to be trained as teams on how a
community can intentionally transmit the philanthropic tradition.
A.
B.
C.
D.
E.
Summer 2000 at Indiana University
Summer 2001 at Indiana University
Summer 2002 at Indiana University
Replicated at a Michigan university
Replicated at a partner state university.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
Advanced Seminars
Advanced seminars on philanthropy for all youth educators (teachers, religious instructors, community leaders, parents, and youth workers)
A.
Summer 2001 at Indiana University
B.
Summer 2002 at Indiana University
C.
Summer 2002 at a Michigan University
16
2001-2002
2002-2003
�ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
Ten Key States
Identify and organize statewide leadership to replicate all of the components of the K-12 Education in Philanthropy project in 10 states in the United States. Utilize multiple networks such as community, private, corporate, and family foundations; educational
professional organizations; universities; and the State Service Commissions.
A.
2000-2001 add three states
B.
2001-2002 add three states
C.
2003-2003 add four states.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
Ten Key Nations
Identify and organize national leadership to replicate all of the components of the K-12 Education in Philanthropy project in 10 nations: 4 in Europe and the former Soviet-bloc nations, 2 in Africa, 2 in South America, 2 in Asia.
A.
work in collaboration with international funders such as private foundations, and the International Youth Foundation, CIVICUS, and the European Foundation Center
B.
utilize the internet as an international communications vehicle
C.
research, write, pilot-test, and field-test lessons and assessment instruments that translate into the cultures of the nation's with an interest in teaching philanthropy.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
Curriculum "Kits"
Develop and publish curriculum "kits" for individual schools and teachers interested in implementing the curriculum and lessons.
17
2001-2002
2002-2003
�ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2002-2003
Web-site Dissemination
A.
B.
disseminate individual lessons and teacher support materials through the web-site for ease of access throughout the world.
connect web-site with colleague web-sites in Indiana (Habits of the Heart, Community Partnerships with Youth, Indiana University Center on Philanthropy).
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2001-2002
2002-2003
CD ROM Dissemination
Develop and disseminate the pool of lessons, curriculum themes, and teacher support materials via CD-ROM for ease in mailing and distribution.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
Sponsorship
Develop a relationship with a long-term sponsor for the project. An organization with an international reach and local memberships throughout the world such as the Rotary, Kiwanis, or other service organization.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
18
2001-2002
2002-2003
�
Localized Dissemination
Develop and implement a local, geographic strategy for disseminating the project and for the professional development and support of the classroom teachers.
A.
Develop the local approach in Calhoun County, Michigan
B.
Use the Intermediate School District Consultants in Michigan
C.
Test the local approach throughout the counties in Michigan
D.
Pilot the strategy in the initial 10 states
E.
Pilot the strategy internationally.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
Journal
Publish a Journal of K-12 Philanthropy on a semi-annual basis. Develop a "juried" process for submission and acceptance that assures a high quality to the materials made available.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
Dissemination Conference
Hold a dissemination conference in 2003 for educators from throughout the world.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
Conference and Speaker Circuit
A.
B.
Attend and present materials regarding the philanthropy curriculum at all key educational and philanthropic conferences in Michigan and across the United States. Utilize the teacher-consultants as authentic presenters at these meetings. Utilize Steering
Committee members as keynote speakers.
Plan with Indiana partners joint presentations to identified audiences with interests common to all project participants such as: Independent Sector, Society for Experiential Learning, CIVICUS, etc. Each area will present individually to groups organized
specifically in their areas of interest (education, religion, youth development, graduate philanthropy education), humanities councils).
19
�ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
Endorsement and Inclusion
Seek the formal endorsement of the key educational and philanthropic organizations in Michigan, in each state, and across the United States. Engage these organizations in the dissemination of the project ideas and materials.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
20
2001-2002
2002-2003
�GOAL: PARENTS INVOLVEMENT, SCHOOL IMPROVEMENT, YOUTH GROUPS, AND CONGREGATIONS
Develop and implement programs with parents, youth groups, and religious congregations to support and extend the teaching of philanthropy within the
full ecology of a child's life.
Objectives: Parent Involvement
ACTIVITY
Research, develop, field-test and implement a thoughtful strategy and materials for parent involvement in their children's education, particularly around the teaching of philanthropy.
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
21
2001-2002
2002-2003
�GOAL: related systems
Develop and collaborate on strengthening related systems that support the teaching of philanthropy to the next generation.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
GOAL: DISSEMINATION
Disseminate the teaching of philanthropy in Michigan, nationally, and internationally.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
22
2001-2002
2002-2003
�GOAL: PUBLIC RELAIONS AND MARKETING
Provide ongoing public relations and marketing visibility to key educational and philanthropic audiences in Michigan, across the nation, and
internationally.
Objectives:
Newsletter
Implement a quarterly newsletter with substance
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
Membership Organization
Develop and implement the membership association: Teachers of Philanthropy
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
Conferences
ACTIVITY
Develop, implement, and monitor presentations at all key conferences and seminars
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
23
2001-2002
2002-2003
�ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
Web-site
Develop, monitor, and continue to enrich the web-site
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
Publications
Publish and promote sales of lessons, curriculum themes, background papers, teacher support materials, Journal, institute materials, bookmarks, and other materials of the project
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
Article Placement
ACTIVITY
Place articles in key, strategic, newsletters, journals, and the publications of other organizations
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
24
2001-2002
2002-2003
�Video
Develop a short high quality video about the project
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
Develop with the Indiana partners a video on all components of the project
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
General Media
ACTIVITY
Develop and implement strategies with the state and national general media including print, public radio, public television, and commercial television
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
25
2001-2002
2002-2003
�GOAL: SELF-SUFFICIENCY/FUNDING
Develop and implement a plan to make the project self-sufficient by 2010.
Objectives:
Income Sources
Membership Fees
Publications and Royalties
Sponsorships
Web-site Income
Project Grants
Institute Fees
Government Contracts
Tuition splitting with Universities
Endowment Income
Scoring and Reporting of Standardized Tests
Fellowships
Professional Development Conference Fees
Fees from Schools on Implementation
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
26
2001-2002
2002-2003
�GOAL: STEERING COMMITTEE AND GOVERNANCE
Continue Steering Committee leadership and involvement in the project implementation.
Continue with key committees and assignments
Utilize Steering Committee members as speakers and presenters
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
27
2001-2002
2002-2003
�GOAL: STAFF RESOURCES
Build professional resources to accomplish the tasks assigned.
Office Space
Solve issues of office space
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
Additional Staff
Add staff as needed and funded
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
Consultant Pool
Utilize a pool of consultants as adjunct staff for special services.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
28
2001-2002
2002-2003
�Volunteers
Utilize volunteers, students, "Teach for America", and Americorps/Vista workers
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
Internships
Utilize summer internships
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003
Graduate Student Research
Utilize graduate student assistance on research needs.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
CMF Support
Provide for support costs from CMF President, Vice President-Finance, Accountant, Auditor, Public Relations
29
2001-2002
2002-2003
�ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
30
2001-2002
2002-2003
�GOAL: EVALUATION
Implement and report on appropriate evaluation for the project.
ACTIVITY
Kathy
Terry
Rita
Tom
Judy
Due Date
FUNDERS
1999-2000
BUDGET
2000-2001
31
2001-2002
2002-2003
�PROPOSED ORGANIZATIONAL CHART
32
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Our State of Generosity
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains the records of four Michigan nonprofit organizations: Council of Michigan Foundations, Michigan Nonprofit Association, Michigan Community Service Commission, and the Johnson Center for Philanthropy at GVSU. The documents are compiled by the Johnson Center for Philanthropy, and records document the history of the organizations from the 1960s to the 2010s.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1968-2014
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/515">Our State of Generosity collection, JCPA-04</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy
Council of Michigan Foundations
Michigan Nonprofit Association
Michigan Community Service Commission
Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy
Charities
Philanthropy and Society
Fundraising
Records
Michigan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Council of Michigan Foundations; Michigan Nonprofit Association; Michigan Community Service Commission
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
JCPA-04
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
JCPA-04_CMF-LTG_1999_Draft-Plan-of-Work-and-Program-Detail
Title
A name given to the resource
Learning to Give 1999 draft plan of work and program detail
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Council of Michigan Foundations. Learning to Give
Description
An account of the resource
Learning to Give 1999 draft plan of work and program detail. Records are compiled in the Our State of Generosity collection by the Johnson Center, along with the files of the Michigan Nonprofit Association (MNA), the Michigan Community Service Commission (MCSC) and the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy. Originals are at the Council of Michigan Foundations.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy
Charities
Philanthropy and Society
Records
Fundraising
Council of Michigan Foundations
Learning to Give
Michigan
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49402
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/515">Our State of Generosity collection, JCPA-04</a>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1999
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/172ea8996ca954c8a16e26a7de99b9ea.jpg
52759060e40a082a90683da198e81e0b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Decorated Publishers' Bindings
Subject
The topic of the resource
Book covers
Covers (Illustration)
Graphic arts
Publishers and publishing
Pictorial bindings
Description
An account of the resource
From the early 1870s to roughly 1930, many publishers issued their commercial book covers with a remarkable variety of graphic designs and illustrations. This sixty-year period saw many artists and designers contributing to this art form. While some can be identified from their style or initials, others remain unknown.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Seidman Rare Books Collection
Michigan Novels Collection
Regional Historical Collection
Lincoln and the Civil War Collection
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-30
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>, <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpg
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
DC-01
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Source
Seidman Rare Books. PS1054.B3 K44 1911
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
DC-01_Bindings0429
Title
A name given to the resource
Keeping up with Lizzie
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Covey, Arthur (Designer)
Description
An account of the resource
Binding of Keeping up with Lizzie, by Irving Bacheller, published by Harper & Brothers Publishers, 1911.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Book covers
Covers (Illustration)
Graphic arts
Publishers and publishing
Pictorial bindings
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1911
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/74df1ac9bdda890cbb6bbdd146a76fca.jpg
91bd9ecfeab63611d62ae8065ba1a452
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Decorated Publishers' Bindings
Subject
The topic of the resource
Book covers
Covers (Illustration)
Graphic arts
Publishers and publishing
Pictorial bindings
Description
An account of the resource
From the early 1870s to roughly 1930, many publishers issued their commercial book covers with a remarkable variety of graphic designs and illustrations. This sixty-year period saw many artists and designers contributing to this art form. While some can be identified from their style or initials, others remain unknown.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Seidman Rare Books Collection
Michigan Novels Collection
Regional Historical Collection
Lincoln and the Civil War Collection
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-30
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>, <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpg
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
DC-01
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Source
Seidman Rare Books. PS1006.A4 A73 1899
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DC-01_Bindings0346
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The Archbishop's Unguarded Moment
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Cowper, Frank Cadogan (Designer)
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Binding of The Archbishop's Unguarded Moment, by Oscar Fay Adams, published by L.C. Page & Company, 1899.
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
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1899
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e29d4de22335a63e613e31262256c8a2.mp4
0cac149c94c4ebfed62cd294f09e57a4
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/45512b256a3fcfc4420c29417f15aa65.pdf
bd3735181e468a98334912ecc8da4243
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Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
TONY COX
Born: Indianapolis, Indiana
Resides: Indianapolis
Interviewed by: Mike McGregor, GVSU Veterans History Project,
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, January 8, 2013
Interviewer: Tony, to get started I just want to get a little background information.
When and where were you born?
In Indianapolis, Indiana
Interviewer: And when were you born?
August the 31st of 1949
Interviewer: Did you grow up in Indianapolis?
Yes I did, I’ve lived my whole life here.
Interviewer: You attended high school?
Yes
Interviewer: Tell me about growing up in Indianapolis? How would you describe
your childhood?
It was typical Midwest, you know, as far as growing up and stuff. I just went to high
school and after high school it was the thing to get a job and have a good time. Of course
there was always the draft and the Vietnam War was always on our minds and stuff. 1:00
We use to kid each other about that about maybe being cannon fodder or something
because you knew you were going to get drafted or whatever. That was basically it, just
a typical young man growing up. Trying to chase after the women and wasn’t too
successful at that, by the way. You know, just having fun.
1
�Interviewer: What did your parents do?
My father worked and my mother, she stayed at home. There were six of us in the
family.
Interviewer: What did your dad do?
He was a—he worked for the Linkbelt Manufacturing Company here on the south side of
Indianapolis. He was a chain assembler and he worked pretty hard all his life. We made
do, we didn’t have a lot of things, as far as stuff, but as far as quality of life, when I look
back, it was pretty good.
Interviewer: So, when you graduated from high school you said you got a job? 2:00
I got a job and I started working, probably, right after my birthday in 1967 when I turned
eighteen, I was able to get a full time job. That’s basically what I did. I got a job with
benefits, you know, so I could move out of the house and get my own set of wheels, start
partying and have a good time. A single man’s dream, you know, that was basically it.
Interviewer: At that time were you following the events in Vietnam?
Well, yes up to a point because I had a brother who served in Vietnam, and he was two
years older than me, two years older than me, Tom, and he served in Vietnam too. He
served with the engineer brigade over there. He was over there about two years prior to
me.
Interviewer: Was he drafted?
Yes, he was drafted.
Interviewer: So, you were kind of concerned about the draft, and did you get your
draft notice then?
2
�Yes, and I got my draft notice and then that’s when all of a sudden I said, ―Well, I better
do something about this, what can I do?‖ So, of course, it was pretty late then, so I
called—made a few calls about getting in the National Guard, the Reserves, and all that,
but they were all full. 3:14 They were full way before then, so I thought, ―Huh, my
brother was drafted and he went, so I can do the same thing.‖ So, for some reason I
found out that the Marines were drafting and I didn’t want to be drafted by the Marines. I
was nineteen years old and I just didn’t want to be a Marine, so I don’t know, I talked to a
recruiter and he said, ―You can sign up for two years‖, so I enlisted for two years. It was
something they had going on at that time, because most times, when you signed up, you
had to go for three years.
Interviewer: When did you enlist then? 4:00
The same day I would have been drafted, May 7th of 1969.
Interviewer: And you reported to basic training then?
Basic training at Fort Knox, Kentucky and I had taken—of course, when you enlist you
take the battery—you take these tests and talking with the recruiter, ―Oh you’d do real
well on all these tests‖, and I did. He said, ―Oh, you can do any job in the army. You
qualify for about any job in the army‖, so I said, ―Okay‖, but it was still two years. Like I
said, I went to Fort Knox and then basic training.
Interviewer: At Fort Knox you went through the reception center?
The reception center, yes, of course, first.
Interviewer: Did they assign you your MOS at that point?
No, you didn’t learn your MOS until, probably, gee, I would say maybe two weeks.
When you first got your orders, I don’t think you knew until you got your orders. 5:03
3
�Interviewer: Really?
Yeah, if I’m not mistaken
Interviewer: I went through basic in 1966 and in the reception center and off the
bus, they stopped you dead and told you what you were going to do.
I don’t—you know, you could be right, it’s been a while.
Interviewer: You were three years after me.
Yeah, and I want to say that it wasn’t until later, you know, later on in your training that
you got your orders. You know, when you got your orders and you were in a particular
fort, you would know what your MOS was. You didn’t have to have anybody tell you.
Interviewer: AIT at Fort Polk
Yes sir, you go, ―Oh, Oh, is this North Fort or South Fort?‖ ―It’s South Fort.‖ ―Oh,
okay‖
Interviewer: So, at the end of basic you got your orders?
I got my orders.
Interviewer: For AIT?
For AIT, and it was Light Weapons Infantry, 11 Bravo, at Fort Polk, Louisiana, which
they called ―Little Vietnam‖, and also, ―The armpit of the United States Army‖. 6:11
But, anyway I went there and went for my training and, of course you know, I wasn’t too
happy with the situation, and thought, ―Gee, how did I end up in this?‖ I know how I did
now, but that’s water under the bridge. So, I went through training and while I was in
training, or after my AIT, they told me I was staying for an extra two weeks. I was going
to a leadership preparation course down there at Fort Polk, so I stayed two weeks for that.
Then they said, ―Now, you’re going to the NCO school, NCOIC School in Fort Banning,
4
�Georgia‖. 7:01 I said, ―Okay, I’m not going to Vietnam yet, I’ll go to that too‖. So, I
went down to Fort Benning then, from September or early October through, probably,
March of 1970 down there. Let me go back. I spent twelve weeks at Fort Banning,
Georgia training. After that we went to an AIT unit back at fort Polk. So, that’s basically
what I did and what my training consisted of. I look back on that training I got through
the NCO school and it was pretty good. They trained you how they were fighting over in
Vietnam. 8:01 I think by this time I had resigned myself to the fact that, you know, I
was going to be in the infantry and I was going to go over there, so I thought, ―Well, I
can get this extra training, so let’s go ahead and get it and maybe put it to good use and
help me survive‖.
Interviewer: So, you had, basically, your two month infantry AIT at Fort Polk, and
then you went to Fort Benning and did the, we use to call it, “shake and bake” ?
Yes, ―shake and bake‖, yeah, I went there
Interviewer: You did that and then how did that training—you said it was more
enhanced than the training you had at Fort Polk?
Well yeah, when you went through AIT that was like—it was more—well, at Fort Polk
they did get into some of the—let’s go back. Fort Knox was conventional warfare. You
know your teams and your squads and everything, you know, and then when you got into
AIT, at Fort Polk, they got more into the jungle warfare, you know, and stuff. 9:06 then
it was even more advanced in the NCO School. So, we went through a lot of training
there. We were out there in the field a lot at NCO School.
Interviewer: Did you do a lot of land navigation and that kind of thing?
5
�Oh yeah, all that, which I enjoyed, I enjoyed land navigation, you know, and stuff, and I
probably did pretty good. I was never lost, even in Vietnam, disorientated, maybe, but
never lost. So, I did that and went back to Fort Polk.
Interviewer: When you graduated from NCO School were you promoted to and
E5?
Yes, to an E5—when you went to the NCO School you were promoted to an E4, and then
after you graduate you were promoted to either an E5 or E6 depending on how well you
did overall. I was promoted to an E5. 10:02
Interviewer: Then back to Fort Polk as a training unit?
Yes, a training unit, and I did that for eight or nine weeks, I think. One cycle, and then
from there you got your orders for Vietnam and also you—I don’t—I think I might have
got a thirty day break, maybe, I’m trying to remember.
Interviewer: Was that the first break you had in training?
Yes
Interviewer: So, you went to basic, AIT, NCO School and then you got a leave?
Then I got a leave, yeah, thirty days a year is what I think
Interviewer: You were in almost a half a year then before you got a leave?
Yes—well, we use to get in training, when I was at Fort Knox, I was only a hundred and
fifty miles from home and I got one week-end pass and that was it. 11:00 then when I
got down to Fort Polk, you know the training was more intense and it was hot, very hot
and if you didn’t mess up, you know, I remember the drill sergeant was pretty good. He
was tough on you, but he was good too, and you ended up getting a lot of passes, but
there was no place to go. I think one time I went to, I think it was Lake Charles,
6
�Louisiana. I took a bus and went down to Lake Charles, maybe spend the night and come
back the next day.
Interviewer: Just to get away?
Yes, just to get away, and there were other places to go too, but we won’t get into that.
Anyway, that’s basically what I did when I was stationed down there and then when I
went through the NCO School I went home---wait a minute, let me back off—I know
what it was, I went to Fort Benning and then Christmas time came around—wait a
minute—I did have my car down there, so maybe I did get a leave between AIT and
going and reporting to Fort Benning because I did have a car. 12:10 I went and got my
car and brought it down there with me. Really the first time on my own, well, a couple
times I’ve gone somewhere like a road trip. A buddy of mine, his car broke down and I
said, ―I’m never going on a trip with him again‖. One lesson I learned is to have the car
prepared for a road trip. Yeah, then I came home for Christmas, so I had a leave then,
and after Christmas and New Year’s, I think two weeks probably, we went back for
training after that.
Interviewer: When I think back It’s pretty customary that training commands shut
down at Christmas time,
I think two weeks
Interviewer: Two weeks or ten days, something like that.
So, that’s what we probably had.
Interviewer: So, now you got orders for Vietnam at Polk, and you’re a cadre in AIT
unit. Did they have any other special training for you at Polk before you left? 13:08
7
�There was training available to me. I didn’t go through it, like Ranger training, jump
school, and I thought, ―Nah, that’s okay‖.
Interviewer: Was there any more Vietnam appropriate training/
Well, the whole thing was orientated towards the Vietnam War.
Interviewer: What I mean is, once you got your orders is there anything that you
had to go through? Like in my case when we got orders to Vietnam we had the
whole nine yards of, you know, we had ambush procedures and making out a will,
and all that kind of stuff.
Yeah, we had to do stuff like that, but we didn’t have those procedures. I think basically,
if I remember correctly, we just went home on leave and then reported to the Oakland
Army Terminal.
Interviewer: You reported to Oakland, California, and how long were you in
Oakland then? 14:04
Two days—I got there and I said, ―I want to see San Francisco‖. I’d heard about San
Francisco, the scene there and I wanted to see some of it, and I did.
Interviewer: In Oakland did they tell you when you were going to ship out? Did
they still make you do the four or five formations a day?
We did the four or five formations a day if I remember correctly and yeah, I had that.
Interviewer: Did they call off people’s names?
Yeah, it basically worked like that, yeah.
Interviewer: So, you’re in Oakland and they call your name and did you shop out
of Travis Air Force Base?
Yeah, I guess it would be there by Oakland. From there we flew to Alaska.
8
�Interviewer: Did you fly commercial or on a military flight?
It was a charter flight.
Interviewer: A charter flight. 15:03
We flew from there to Alaska, and if I’m not mistaken, we flew from Alaska all the
way—is that possible? To Japan and from Japan to Vietnam--I never really thought
about it.
Interviewer: That’s probably the—I left out of Oakland and Travis and we went
from California to Hawaii to Japan to Vietnam.
I remember going through Alaska, I do remember that because I remember landing there
in Anchorage. I guess it was the sunset and there was snow on the mountains, and this is
April, April of 1970. It was beautiful, and I never saw those mountains before and to
this day I remember saying, ―Wow, this is beautiful‖, and it was, it was awesome, it was
almost kind of eerie because there is all this red coming at you, you know. But I do
remember that and then we went to Japan and we had a little break there for a while like
we did in Alaska. 16:04 I don’t remember a lot of that, you know, and stuff, and then
we went to Vietnam.
Interviewer: Where did you land in country then, near Saigon?
Yes, Hoa Bien I think it was Hoa Bien [Bien Hoa]. I remember flying over the
countryside and seeing the bomb craters and stuff like that and thinking, ―Oh my gosh,
oh, oh‖, so we landed. I remember them taking us out of the plane and kind of hustling
us along and getting us on these buses, school buses, which maybe some type of what do
you call it around the windows?
Interviewer: Fencing or screening or something like that?
9
�Yeah, and the bus took us to the what do you call it where you check in there at the
replacement--17:01
Interviewer: Replacement Depot.
I spent some time there and it didn’t seem like it was very long.
Interviewer: Now to back track, when you got your orders were you just ordered to
that replacement unit or did you have an idea where you were going to be assigned
to?
No, no, I did not know where I was going to be assigned to. I remember that real well
because when I was over there the replacement company—we heard rumors about what
was going on and, of course, there were men who were coming back from the bush who
would tell you. I remember two specifically, it was the 1st Cav, and about the 101st and
they said, ―You don’t want to go to the 101st because they’re getting their ass kicked.
Nor do you want to go to the 1st Cav because they’re getting their ass kicked‖. I’m
thinking to myself, ―I’m going to either one of those‖. Okay, if I may back track just a
little bit. 18:02 On the way over to Vietnam, the men I had been with through all this
training, a lot of them I went over to Vietnam with, we all went over there together. So,
different people, a couple of names I remember is Dan Davis, he was from Illinois, and
Darrell Dickey who was from Kansas, because we did a lot of our training together,
which might have included AIT and the NCO School, and then going to the training unit
back at Fort Polk, so we knew each other and stuff. Those two went to the 1st Cav and I
went to the 101st.
Interviewer: At the replacement depot then they just called your name out and said
where you were going to go?
10
�It was just like in Oakland, you just get in line formation again, or something like that, if
I remember, and they would call your name out. 19:01 That’s when you got your orders
and they said, ―Okay, you got to go here‖. You jump on some mode of transportation
and you go to the airfield and probably got on a C130 and went up there.
Interviewer: To backtrack just a little bit. In Oakland did they give you your
jungle fatigues and that kind of thing, or did you travel in Khakis and have to draw
them when you got in country?
I want to say we got them in country. That’s a good point, but I want to say in country is
when we got them.
Interviewer: So from the, was it the 90th Replacement Depot in Saigon? I’m not
sure. Ok, the 101st, so they trooped you over to an airport and you got on a plane
and where did you go? 20:00
We ended up at Camp Eagle and then we went into the replacement company there. We
went into what they called SERTS and there they would give you some training.
Interviewer: What kind of training would they give you there?
Oh, they would just like review and go over your training. Zero your weapon, and they
would take you out and zero your weapon in as best you could, and some refresher
courses in what we were trained to do, and everyone went through this.
Interviewer: This was at Camp Eagle?
Yes, this was at Camp Eagle.
Interviewer: This was the division’s base camp?
That was their main base camp, that’s right and that was the headquarters for the 101st,
right.
11
�Interviewer: How long did that training last?
I don’t know, some people say a week, I don’t know, it flew by.
Interviewer: So, you zeroed your weapon and they warranted you to the country to
get use to the heat and humidity? 21:04
I don’t know, maybe back up a minute—as far as zeroing, maybe I’m getting that mixed
up. When you zeroed your weapon it was after you got to your unit. That makes sense,
right? You get your weapon after you get to your company area. That’s when they
assign you to the supply room, and I’m probably getting mixed up with that. But, I think
we went through some refresher training and stuff like that, probably, except for that part
of it. After I left SERTS I went up to my unit and got in my unit and then--Interviewer: Then you were assigned and you went up to Delta Company to the
506? [D/1/506}
Yes
Interviewer: Now, at that point, the 101st wasn’t—I know airborne is in your name,
but you didn’t have to be a jumper?
No, they were air mobile at this time. They quit jumping, I guess, in 1968. It didn’t work
out too well for them, so they added this Air Mobile and, in fact, when you would sign
your address you would put 101st Airborne Division (Air Mobile) in parenthesis. 22:05
Today it’s known as the 101st Airborne Air Assault, and we were the fore runner of the
air assault.
Interviewer: So, now you’re assigned to your company, where was the company at?
The company was out in the jungle and the company had really been through some hard
times. They had just had a platoon virtually wiped out. They had been under a lot of
12
�heavy contact on an abandoned firebase, and I’m going to say a couple of days later I was
sent out there to the bush. I want to say, I went out there with this one guy names James
Fowler. I always say we went out into the bush together and he disagrees with me.
Anyway, we go out there together and I’m thinking, ―Oh my gosh, what have I gotten
into?‖
Interviewer: Now, you went out on a regular logbird or whatever? 23:03
On a longbird, yes, went out there on the logbird and got off at the helicopter LZ and I
thought, ―Oh my goodness, look at all this, trees blown away‖, and, of course, you see all
the craters and everything, and bald tops of mountains that were once maybe firebases.
Beautiful country by the way, I really thought it was great. We go out there and I
thought, ―Oh, my gosh‖. I met the company commander, he was there. They took us
back and we got off the bird and then they went and they took in who met us and we met
the company commander, his name was Don Workman, his call sign was ―Ranger’ at the
time, so everyone called him ―Ranger’. If I remember correctly he said something like
―Do you know how to hunt?‖ I go, ―Yeah, I’ve done some hunting and stuff‖, and he
goes, ―Basically, all you’re doing is you’re hunting‖. 24:02 I said, ―Well, okay‖, and I
remember Kish because he didn’t come out there. They had been on a rec, and they had
come out and were talking about the reconnaissance patrol they had been on and
overhearing some of that, and then I was assigned to what was left of my platoon and
there were about five guys left. They were the ones who had taken the—maybe a couple
of days earlier had been in that one battle for their lives. I remember Gibb and Dean,
John, Ernie Banks, machine gunner, and a couple more and that was about it. 25:03 So,
I became--what happened what was left of the 2nd platoon became an extra squad of the
13
�third. The 101st operated three platoons, two squads per platoon, so with what happened
with the second platoon they made an extra squad in the third platoon. We had an extra
squad until we got new recruits in, which I was one.
Interviewer: Were you joined as a squad leader?
No, they had a squad leader. Gib Rossiter was an E5 and he was the squad leader at that
time. So, I joined them and Merle Dean Finch was given the assignment of showing me
the ropes, you know and stuff, you know. 26:00
So from that day on, and there was a
lot of enemy activity in that area, so it wasn’t long before we were in fire fights or contact
with the enemy, light contact that happened before to them, and these guys, I remember
them being real serious because of what they had been through and survived that battle
and stuff, they were hardened, which is understandable. Great guys, great guys, I know
them well now and they are good friends.
Interviewer: Were you received well at initially or did you have to—
Reserved reservations, with reservations
Interviewer: You had to pay your dues first?
Well of course, of course, you know and stuff, and then—so, we’re going on these
missions, you know, setting up ambushes and stuff like that going on, and every once in a
while making contact. 27:00 Going about the day to day business of being infantrymen
out in the boonies and stuff like that and we stayed out in the bush a long time.
Interviewer: Now, you’re in I Corps, were you in the heavy, heavy stuff like the
hills?
Yeah, in the mountains, and at that time we were off what they called Moraine ridgeline
and we were just working that ridgeline and there was a lot of enemy activity in the way.
14
�There were just things off and on that would happen, and some of it I’ve forgotten. I
remember one time they were calling in Napalm and it almost landed on us, you know
and stuff. Things like that and they were bringing new men in. 28:00 We were
constantly getting new men in. Some were with us and some of them might have been a
replacement for 3rd platoon, because they suffered some casualties. They got ambushed
trying to go to the aid of the 2nd platoon. They suffered casualties and 1st platoon suffered
casualties, but I would say probably the majority were coming to 2nd platoon. I think
Merle DeLaGrange came in at that time and Merle and I have remained friends
throughout that time. Like I said, we were just humping the boonies getting fire—search
and destroy missions, firefights, call in support, mostly artillery, gunships, airstrikes, a
pretty hot area.
Interviewer: With the fights, your contact then, would you consider it major or
minor?
It was minor, but it was very intense, you know. 29:05
Interviewer: That’s what happens, and was anything pitched at that point?
No, not at that time, it was we’d just get in these firefights and we’d just learn, you know,
I’d just follow along trying to learn—―Shoot‖, ―oh, okay‖, you know. At that time, that’s
what we would do, just try, you know.
Interviewer: I would like to get on record basically what you carried. What was
your basic load?
I carried an M16 with three ammo belts, 7 clips per belt, so about twenty one magazines.
In those magazines, we never loaded them up to twenty. We put maybe sixteen,
seventeen rounds to keep them from jamming, right? 30:02
15
�Interviewer: Right
I learned that and I was taught that, and was kind of told, ―You don’t need this and you
don’t need to carry that‖, and stuff like that, because it was kicking my ass carrying that
rucksack, because you carried your house with you. You carried you C rations with you,
your water, very important water, very hot.
Interviewer: How many canteens did you carry?
I would say, at least, maybe five, maybe six, and some of these canteens were like
bladders and they would hold more, but they were more apt to leak on you too. You
think you got this, and they would hold, maybe two quarts, ―Oh boy, I got this water
left‖, and the next thing you know it’s all wet and it’s leaked and you’re without water. I
tried to keep the old style plastic canteens and stuff, you know, and we’d just go on the
missions and stuff. 31:04 We would stay out in the bush a long time.
Interviewer: Now, were you required to hump some extra ammo for the machine
guns?
No, I wasn’t, I carried just what I was supposed to. I might have at some time, but I’ve
just forgotten you know, and stuff. Your claymores and frags, lots of frags, and I just
made a base like the light infantrymen and tried to learn the ropes as best I could.
Interviewer: Would you keep most of your frags in the tubes or would you have
them out?
I think we had them out, because you had to understand where we were at was very
active with enemy activity. I never really saw that many, of course, being new and
fortunately we had a good point man and slack man and stuff, you know, that kind of
helped you out there. 32:02 Like I said, I’m just learning the ropes. I’m kind of like,
16
�―OH, what was that noise?‖ Someone would say, ―You dumb ass, get down‖, you know.
They’re shouting and that’s the nice words they were saying, anyway that’s it basically.
Interviewer: How much did your equipment weigh, everything that you had to
hump that you had?
A bunch, it was never weighed, but I know it was a bunch because you—the thing that it
is with the 101st is when you would go, your missions—I know some divisions would go
out on missions anywhere from three to five days and they would come back, maybe to
base camp, I know that’s how some of them worked, and I don’t know how you guys
worked with the 1st Cav, but when we went out on a mission, our missions lasted
anywhere, I would say, from forty-five to sixty days, a long time. The only reason the
mission might be aborted, or anything, is heavy contact and lots of casualties, or
something like that. 33:09 Otherwise we stayed out there and there was a reason we
stayed out there, there was a reason they kept us out there. It was because there was a
drug problem back at Camp Evans, and from what I’ve read in the book ―Hell on the
Hilltop‖ by General Harrison, I think there’s a passage in there that states—that talks
about that, about leaving us out there that long to keep us away from the drugs and stuff.
There was some violence back there too, I understand, so I never spent much time at
Camp Evans.
Interviewer: Was there any drug use out in the field?
No, we wouldn’t allow it. It was not allowed and if somebody—I know it’s been seen
that later on in the years of 1969 and 1970 guys blowing through a shotgun and inhaling
it, no that was not allowed, never. 34:06 The area was too hot and there was a major
buildup by the NVA there. They were getting ready for the big push there, and of course,
17
�with what happened with the focusing all their attention on that far support base Ripcord,
they did not want it open. The A Shau Valley was their base camp and they did not want
any Americans in that and, of course, all the things going on in the war too, you know.
There were troops coming home, Camp Sunrest at home and the protest, Kent State
happened, I think when I was over there. Didn’t that happen in 1970?
Interviewer: I’m not sure when it happened. It might have happened around that
time.
Yeah, I think it did, so you know, it was very volatile back then, as far as the protest.
35:05 So, basically it focused on the protest back home, you know, and stuff, and of
course we were sad to hear about the loss of people on the campus and stuff, and
everybody gets the National Guardsmen, or something, some of these guys that just got
back from Vietnam or something, so they claim. I really haven’t checked that out and
stuff like that. You know, some of the veterans who were in the National Guard or still
on active duty. Maybe not National Guard, but an active duty unit, but that’s basically
what we did, it all came down to survival and looking after your buddy.
Interviewer: It was tough, we went there in 1968. 36:00
Yeah, and it’s still tough, and it was tough in 1969 from what I understand too, you
know, with Hamburger Hill and all that stuff too.
Interviewer: So, you’re basically out on extended operations?
Yes, search and destroy missions, you know, and that’s basically all we did. What do
they call it, ―moments of boredom followed by sheer moments of terror‖, and that was
basically it, you know.
18
�Interviewer: On the whole, I mean if you can quantify it, how many men did you
have in your company at any one time?
The most that I can remember was in the eighties, and that’s after—we had
suffered a lot of casualties after I’d first gotten over there, so what the battalion
did—okay, everyone had an AO, area of operation and that usually involved a
firebase. 37:10 The 2nd Battalion of the 506 had Ripcord firebase, the 1st
Battalion of the 506 had the Kathryn, Firebase Kathryn, and you would work the
area around there that the guns could cover. They would always bring, of course
they had to bring the guns out to the jungle because they’re not going to shoot
from the lowlands, they can’t do that, so that’s basically how we worked. It
happened at that one time, as far as Ripcord is concerned, the NVA decided they
don’t want Ripcord there, it’s on the edge of the A Shau and we don’t want
anybody. We don’t want American troops, and of course they’re trying to kill off
American troops too to put even more pressure on the administration to get them
out of there. 38:00 The more they can kill the better off it is, you know. Like
when the 1st Cav went into Cambodia, that took a lot of the spotlight, if you want
to call it, away from us and all of it was focused on the 1st Cav. Up with us was a
major thing too because we went into their sanctuary, it’s their base camp, the A
Shau. I remember one time, I was told by a company commander of another
company that we were basically—we were set down in there childlike, that’s what
he said to me, because of where we landed at, we were in the A Shau Valley in
those two days, July of 1970.
19
�Interviewer: During that time I don’t believe there was any other American
division up that way. 39:01
No, the 101st took over for--I think it was the 5th Mech was attached to that.
Interviewer: The Marines had left and the 5th Mech was running around the coast
over there.
Right, down by there and the 101st was stretched thin and I think at one time the Ripcord
operation involved about four hundred troops against many thousand NVA, I learned
later in life. They’re trying against the 101st and they had to have that spring offensive in
1970, you know. To be honest with you, I thought, well you know, they’re pulling troops
out, I had been over there, so I’m twenty years old and what the hell do I know and I’m
thinking, ―Well, it might not be too bad‖, we were talking to a friend before I went over
to Vietnam, talking to a couple of my buddies, and stuff, that I grew up with, ―Maybe
when you get over there it won’t be so bad‖. 40:01 I get over there and I get with the
101st and they’re trying to—and they have a major offensive in A Shau and it’s not
working because the NVA did not want us in there, so there was a lot of stuff going on,
and these offensives always started in the springtime, you know.
Interviewer: Because of rain
Because of rain you’re socked in the mountains and you’re not coming in. Basically their
monsoon season was during our winter season and they’re monsooned and it happened,
so they could—but they were out there all year. We were back in the lowlands, the first
ridgeline, maybe and stuff like that, and they’re back up in there doing a lot of work.
They’re working every day, I understand. It slowed down maybe.
20
�Interviewer: Just to put it in perspective, when we went to A Shau we went with
two brigades, plus there was a Marine regiment and an ARVN group that was
coming up from the south. 41:03 I can’t believe it, and two years later they
fortified it a lot more than they had and you know how that Ripcord thing went.
Now you’ve been in the field for a while, did you then become a squad leader?
Yeah, eventually I became a squad leader. I remember being on firebase Kathryn and we
had to build up the firebase defenses. I remember being down there, I remember being in
charge of the detail that was spreading the concertina around, you know and stuff like
that, fortified positions and stuff like that. We did that for about three weeks and as we
were doing that, we were also getting new men, ―Cherries‖, as they were called; they
were coming in and everything. We were—you take by late June we were basically a
new unit. 42:09 We had, I think, maybe eighty, eighty-five people total you know.
Interviewer: What was your TOE strength, A hundred and fifty or so?
Yeah, so—and the squads—two squads per platoon, plus the CP, so that’s basically how
it broke down with the three platoons and everything, and at that time we were thinking,
―We’re getting a lot of guys‖, but later you learn we’re still only at half strength, and
that’s all they were committing to them.
Interviewer: How did you feel, obviously having new people coming in, but also the
rotation policy? 43:01 People leaving after a year, people going back on R&R,
coming back, people trying to pull various scams to get out of the field for a little
while, how did you feel that affected your, if you will, combat effectiveness?
It’s something that was and it affected it a lot. You know, you build up—when you’re
working together you build cohesions and everything and that was lost. You know, you
21
�take me coming in as a new guy, and everything, and some of the people who were there,
who learned all the experience and everything, all of a sudden they leave. That happened
with me. I built up experience, I had survived, I built up this experience and the next
thing, I’m going, you know, but at that time things had kind of quieted down. 44:00
They had that one major offensive when the Vietnamese, South Vietnamese, you know,
were part of that major offensive, but we were in a secondary position. We were
basically in a defensive mode then. Yeah, sure, I can look back now and say, ―Yeah,
sure‖, and it’s kind of easy to look back as a fifty or sixty year old man just look at the
actions of a twenty or twenty-five year old, maybe even a forty year old and say, ‖Whew,
that wasn’t very smart, you know‖. It would be nice, but I don’t get into that, we were
what we were and we did the best we could. I know from my perspective I tried to do the
best that I could against some overwhelming odd, you know. When I got into a position
of leadership, well the thing you wanted to do, you didn’t want to see anybody die, they
did, but I can look back and say, ―Well, I tried to do my best. I didn’t want to get
anybody killed‖. 45:05
Interviewer: Now you were wounded, would you care to address those
circumstances?
Okay, after we had been on Firebase Kathryn, which we were up to relative strength, and
they sent us to the rear. At this time, the 2nd of the 506
Interviewer: The rear being?
Camp Evans, I think we were sent to the rear there, and then at this time we were sent to
the rear, we were pulled off of Kathryn and we went back and we had a cookout, and all
that stuff, and all of a sudden we found out we were going to be going on a mission. I
22
�remember Captain Workman, Don Workman, was real serious about this being some bad
stuff we were going to get into. 46:00 You know, you’re supposed to go around and
double check and make sure everyone had everything they needed and worked, and
everybody was in pretty good shape and all this stuff, yeah, because we knew we were
going to hit it. We didn’t know how or why, because at the time, the military didn’t
really let you know a whole lot, just enough that they thought you needed to know. And
it might have been that if they let everybody know the truth, a lot of them might not have
went, which is possible. So, we were—basically what happened was the 2nd of the 506, I
told you they were AO, they worked around this Firebase Ripcord, and I told you the
NVA did not like that firebase being there, put in simple terms from me. Anyway, then
what happened is they were just suffering a lot of casualties. 47:04 All three or four
companies and the recon, they had sustained a lot of casualties, so what it was, was they
needed the battalion commander, Lucas was his name, he needed more people, he needed
more soldiers. So, during this time, it happened before us, along some of these units, the
501st, the 502, there were many opconed to the 506 command, the 2nd of the 506
command, and we were one of them. This was towards the end and it was really heating
up, and getting pretty hot. 48:01 A lot of casualties, everybody had suffered a lot of
casualties. We were told, and this is what ended up, we ended up going to report AO and
they had like Triple Hill, Hill 902, Hill 805, 1000, and these were really some hot sports,
and then what it was, where they put ripcord was not the most ideal area. The 1st Cav had
used it as a firebase I think too, but it wasn’t-Interviewer: I’m not sure of that. [it had been a Marine base]
23
�I had heard that it had been, so anyway, what ended up is we got sent out to their AO.
We flew out to the Triple Hill area, and I don’t remember any contact, or it was light
contact. 49:00 I remember seeing a lot of bandages. A lot of people had been wounded
around the LZ. We stayed there, maybe, a day and then from there we combat assaulted
into an area south and east of hill 805. What we were supposed to do, I think it was in
the joint operation of another company, I think it was Alpha 2nd of 506, and we were
supposed to have a joint operation going up the ridgeline back up to hill 805 on search
and destroy missions looking for intelligence, anything. They went up one side of it and
we went up the other. Well, needless to say, when we landed at the LZ, on the 20th of
July, after about the second or third bird we started getting hot LZ or maybe it was after
the second or first bird, it was a hot LZ. 50:12 So, we got in there and tried to get
everybody together and make sure no one was going to do badly and I don’t think anyone
was at that point. I remember, with my platoon, setting up a defensive perimeter around
the LZ, I think. I’m trying to remember like if we came in at twelve o’clock when the
birds came into the LZ. I think maybe at three o’clock was a ridgeline up to a knoll and I
think maybe 2nd platoon and maybe 3rd platoon were all secure in that area and in the nine
o’clock position on the other side of the LZ, 1st platoon was securing that area. 51:04
This is where I get kind of mixed up. I haven’t read the book in a while, the Ripcord
book, or anything, but I do know that’s when we started getting in firefights and we had
to clear that saddle, I guess, we had to clear that saddle to that knoll. But, in the
meantime 1st platoon was running riffs off, recons, off the other side and they made
contact and heavy contact. They didn’t really know it at the time, but they suffered four
killed in action on that day. So, we went up, the other platoons went up close to the knoll
24
�and set up a NDP site and then some of them had to go back down and try to rescue those
casualties from 1st platoon. 52:09 I can’t really say a lot about 1st platoon because I
wasn’t in it in that spot there. You get some guys from 1st platoon, and I don’t know if
there is anybody here, but they could say a lot about that, and they’ve got a lot to say too.
One of the guys couldn’t make it. But anyway, we secured that area from the knoll down
to the LZ, then on the hot spot basically we were where 1st platoon was. We were trying
to get the men from 1st platoon, trying to recover them and we were pinned down by fire.
We couldn’t go anywhere, we were pinned down. Of course by this time the choppers
had left and everything, so you couldn’t cross that LZ, you were going to get shot up, you
know. A lot of incoming, 51 caliber—they had some pretty big stuff in that area. 53:05
They had been waiting and you could tell they were really prepared. So, what happened,
we couldn’t get to them, down to them. Some of them made it back, but we couldn’t get
to them, we just couldn’t get it, so everybody regrouped on that knoll that evening. We
were up there on that knoll, some of us had dug fighting positions, but it was rock and we
did what we could, so we set up on this knoll, what was left of the company and, of
course put LP’s out and stuff like that. We were probed during the night, and then I
remember the next day, the next morning, all of a sudden you heard that. 54:06 We
were getting prepared to move out and move back down to the LZ, and then all of a
sudden you hear ―thump‖, ―thump‖, and you kind of like, ―What’s this? Is this coming
from—it could be from Ripcord‖, because we weren’t far from the firebase itself.
―Thump’, continuously, I guess and the next thing you know we’re taking incoming at
our NDP site, and we suffered a lot of casualties there. A lot of wounded, they may have
killed three or four in that area. We had to try to get back down to the LZ, so we had to
25
�hurry up and get our equipment, and I mean this is in a short period of time. We had
guys dying, we tried to help them stop the bleeding, and stuff, in fact, I carried Doc
Heyges down to the LZ, to get a medevac and stuff. 55:08 We had to set up a perimeter
down there and set up out positions down there, secure the LZ, while we’re getting-Interviewer: Were you still under fire?
Yes, that whole—from the knoll through to the LZ, I think they said, I read it in the book,
that we took eighty rounds, someone counted eighty mortar rounds hitting our NDP site,
so, of course, a lot of casualties, a lot of guys wounded. So, what we did, and I think
that’s when I got it too, so we all made it down to the LZ to secure the area for ourselves
and there we were in battles all day. We got gassed, we got rockets and we were in the
old saying, ―a world of hurt‖. 56:03
Interviewer: Did they use CS?
Yes
Interviewer: Did you guys have gas masks?
Yeah, I don’t know where mine was though, in all the confusion that was going on I
didn’t know where the hell my rucksack was at. I just knew I had my ammo, and my
frags, you know, I had that with me.
Interviewer: Did you have your weapon?
Yes, yes, of course the weapon, the weapon was very important, and we went back down,
like I said, and tried to secure the area and we got into a battle. We were in a day long
battle with them and gradually taking casualties because were getting incoming and we’re
still getting more.
Interviewer: At this point you were wounded right?
26
�Yes, I got shrapnel in the back and those that were more seriously wounded, we got them
out. We got them out and I stayed back there and I asked somebody if they could—my
back was burning, I knew that. 57:05 But, with the intensity of the battle you just kind
of, you know, forget about the adrenalin, and stuff.
Interviewer: Right
Sometimes there would be a pause, you know and kind of go, ―Oh, what is this?‖ I
remember it happening up there, but you had to get out of there and stuff, and like I said,
sometimes there’s kind of a lull and it stopped me, maybe. But I continued to stay out
there and all the men got medevaced out and we just stayed there a tried to maintain our
position the best that we could, in a defensive position. Then it got really bad and
gradually we were getting more casualties and everything, and the medevacs were super,
my hats off to those guys for what they do. 58:00 then what happened—I remember
going on a little reconnaissance patrol taking three or four guys, and we went up trying to
get our dead, we left a couple of bodies up there. I think on that first one, we brought
some—we found one and couldn’t find the other, so we came back down and we had to
go back up. We went back up and got ambushed on the way back up. Now, this is
happening over a period of time, and we got ambushed. One of the guys with me was
Paul Muir, he was walking point and I was kind of like slack and one time we had two
guys behind us and I happened to turn around and they were gone, so here’s Paul and I
out there by ourselves on a two man patrol.
Interviewer: And you’re wounded.
Yes, and Paul’s probably wounded too and maybe the other guys were too, you know.
59:06 I think by the time it was all over there were more wounded than weren’t
27
�wounded. So we went back and ―Well, you’re going to have to go back up‖. There were
dead, and that’s one thing, we try to find our dead. Then we kind of got into an argument
with our CO because at this time I think our platoon leaders were wounded and I think
one of them, Lieutenant Smith was still out there, he was with our platoon, he was still
out there, so Captain Workman said, ―Well, you guys ought to go back up there‖, so at
this time, me and another guy named George Porchow, and a couple other guys, went
back up there and got—I had to walk point this time and we went back up there. 00:11
We went back up there to see what equipment, bodies, if we could, retrieve our dead and
so we went back up there and we got—what happened, the enemy, as I’m walking around
the NEP site, the enemy’s coming up behind me to my left and I think as the guy—
George hollered out and he turned around and he fired him up before he could get me.
And at that time we see more coming up over the hill and I fired at them. I don’t know if
they went down because I hit them or because they were ducking or something, and the
next thing you know everybody’s gone back to the NEP site. I’m, ―Well, wait for me,
I’m coming back too‖, and we went back down there, so that’s how it was, and we were
just surrounded. We had many, many, NVA surrounding us. 1:06
Interviewer: How, eventually did you get out of there? You’re at this hot LZ and
all this firefight and pinned down, how did you get extracted and when?
Well, if I may back up some, a little bit. We got to the point where the company
commander, Captain Workman, I can remember some conversation of him having and
one even to the effect—something was said about we were going to have to take—they
didn’t have anybody to come in and help us and we were going to have to stay there.
28
�And by this time we’re running out of ammo, fortunately we had an ammo drop. A lot of
guys risked their lives to go out on that LZ because that LZ was zeroed in. 2:00
Interviewer: You had an ammo drop and, obviously, people risked their wellbeing
to go out on the LZ.
It was dangerous to cross that LZ because it was zeroed in. It was taking incoming
mortars, 51 caliber fire, whatever they could throw at us, rockets, we were getting
rocketed, in fact, they came to a time after being there for such a period of time that you
kind of got an ear for it, if I may say. 3:06 You could kind of tell, at least I could, I
could kind of tell when they were close, you know, after having all this incoming. I
remember him telling us that we were going to have to spend the night, he didn’t know if
we would make it through the night, there was a lot of enemy in the area, in the
thousands, and we were going to have to spend the night there and it might get down to
―every man for himself’. I can remember having conversations with people about being
taken alive. 4:00 Then what happened, evidently the battalion commander of the 2nd of
the 506 , Colonel Lucas, Lieutenant Colonel Lucas, decided he was going to bring D
Company of the 2nd of the 506 and C Company of the 2nd of the 506, he was going to
have them come in and help us, you know, to help us out. So while C Company secured
the LZ, I think it was, D Company came in and humped to us from another LZ and that
was a hot LZ. So they—I want to make sure I get these events—sometimes I, over the
years, trying to forget,--so they came over and I remember them coming in, and they
found our--they had contact, but they found our dead and brought them down close to the
LZ, which I was grateful for. 5:03
Interviewer: Were these the ones you went out a couple of times trying to retrieve?
29
�Yes, yes, yes, and then they came down and helped us. So, we were going to try to
extract everybody from the LZ, and for some reason our company commander—there
was a lot more going on and I know I’ve missed a lot of it, but I’m just basing it on what
I know from my unit. He decided that we were going to get out and he left some of us
back and he got maybe the second or third bird out and what had happened was the
bird—the birds were coming in, the first one came loaded up and got out, the second one
came in—6:05
Interviewer: Was it just a one ship LZ?
Yes, and now I need, okay, I need to back up there again. There already had been a
medevac ship shot down, I think it was one, there might have been two shot down
already, you know, but oh, okay, what I’m leading to—the process of getting everyone
out, he got out, he was going to go out on the third bird, I think it was, and the rest of us
were securing the area, plus waiting for our turn. A lot of incoming, alright, and what
happened was that bird had come in and he, you’d have to read the book, the chopper that
was coming in to land for him was actually crash landing, it was not under power, and we
didn’t know that. 7:01 I’ve been in touch with a guy and I can’t remember Larry’s last
name, but it was coming in for a crash landing and it had been shot up. He had no place
to go and he couldn’t make it back to Camp Evans, he probably couldn’t have made it out
of the jungle, so okay, where do you go, back to the LZ.
Interviewer: Was this after he picked up some guys and was leaving?
Yeah, I think he was like the third bird. One, two had come in and I think in the process
what happened when he came in there was kind of like a holdup. I think what happened
was when the choppers got ready to take off, they had to come up and reverse and go
30
�back the way they came in and in the process that held him up and some of the others and
I guess he just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and they really shot
him up. 8:03 Alright, so he couldn’t land then, so he said, ―Hey, I’m shot up so I’m
going to have to go and try to make it back to Evans‖, well he wasn’t going to, his bird
was all fired and everything, so he came back around and unbeknownst to us, he was
crash landing, and we thought he was landing. He don’t pick up, so most of the guys
who were getting on there, including the company commander, when they see it coming
down they go out there to catch the bird and the bird is kind of wobbling coming in, and
the next thing you know, I can’t remember what side it landed on, but it landed on and
one of the rotors, or a couple of them, broke off and cut our company commander in half.
It got him across this way (diagonally). I remember seeing what I thought was, maybe, a
rucksack going through the air and it was parts of his body. 9:04 So, needless to say,
after that happened I thought, ―Oh my gosh, what more can happen here?‖ I think he was
the only one killed there. There might have been a couple of wounded, but I think they
all got out, including the guys in the helicopter, the majority. A couple of guys had to, a
couple of our guys had to go down there and dig out—someone was pinned underneath
the chopper, and a couple of guys went down and got him out from underneath the
chopper and brought him back out, and to the relative safety of the three o’clock position
on the LZ. Now, we couldn’t use that, there were two helicopters shot down and we
could use that LZ. What we had to do was turn around and walk, and this is where it’s all
kind of like a blur. 10:08 We had to go to another LZ. There was another LZ to go to,
so we had to hump to it and we couldn’t take our dead. There was no way we could take
our dead, the company commander of D Company of the 506, said we had to leave him,
31
�we didn’t have enough men. They had casualties D Company of the 2nd, Charlie
Company of the 2nd; they were down to half a company, maybe less, you know, maybe
thirty guys or forty guys. I always thanked those guys for coming in and helping us out
because you know that’s something else when you have to go in there and rescue
somebody else when you’re in dire straits yourself, you know. So, we had to hump back
to this hilltop, and I want to say it was hill 605 that comes to mind. 11:09 You could get
shot up even—that was a hot LZ. We got shot up, we got on the bird and I’m trying to
remember who I was with. My buddy Dean was on there and kind of guided me through
and helped me out as part of becoming the squad leader. He was on there, and I can’t
remember—I remember Dean and I remember getting on the chopper and they finally got
us out, and we went back to Camp Evans and landed. I remember guys coming out to
greet us and I remember this one in particular, his name was Servanti, he was in my
squad. 12:05 Coming out there and he was telling me, ―Tony, I’m really glad you
made it out‖ and I said, ―I’m glad you made it out too Craig‖ , so that’s basically how it
ended for us.
Interviewer: Then what happened to you? You were wounded and did you get
medical attention?
I went to the 326 Evac, I think it was. I went back there to see what was going on
because I still had the back thing and now the pain comes back again, so I went back
there and they stitched me up and fixed me up and they said, ―We’re going to put you in
for a purple heart back there‖, so I said, ―Okay‖, and at that time it didn’t really mean
anything. 13:05
Interviewer: Did you return to duty?
32
�After a couple of weeks, and I can’t remember what all they did, but they were superficial
wounds and not like some of the guys who got medevaced out and I never saw again. At
that time, that was basically how I remember that, and rebuild the company again.
Interviewer: I was going to ask you, because you said when you committed to that
action the company was considered at pretty full strength.
Pretty good strength
Interviewer: You had eighty five guys as opposed to whatever. What was your—do
you have any idea what your effective strength was when you were evacuated out of
there?
Fifteen to twenty maybe not even that. 14:03 I can remember someone saying that—
who else was with the 1st Battalion of the 506, saying something about that they had a
battalion formation and when they got out there was no one from B Company out there, I
do remember that. Like I said, after that it just kind of—I stayed in the rear, the company
was regrouping and we ended up going to a firebase. There were a lot of us who
probably were wounded like I was, you know and stuff, and probably went back to the
company, which wasn’t unusual. I think Dean was injured too, and that was probably his
second or third purple heart.
Interviewer: Did you stay; medically did you just stay at Evans? 15:01
Yeah, I stayed at Evans, light duty probably, going and having the bandages changed and
stuff like that because you had to worry about infection, which was rampant.
Interviewer: Any problem with you with infection?
No, I seemed to heal pretty well. The only problem with me, I got badly sunburned, I got
badly sunburned and my lips were even sunburned.
33
�Interviewer: At Camp Evans?
No, at Kathryn, in the jungle, I got really badly sunburned and now I have skin cancer on
my face. That’s all I’m treated for, not on the rest of my body, just my face and
occasionally on my hands. Then I think, ―What was I wearing then during those times?‖
Jungle fatigues rolled up to about here, your fatigue shirt, right? 16:00 In your face, so
I’ve had two battles with skin cancer, but I remember being badly burned on the lips and
I think that got infected too. They would bust open and bleed and stuff and then we went
to the rear and got some medication for that and everything. I had a constant problem
with that and that was just July or the first of August and still I had to go back out in the
jungle. They brought in a bunch of new troops, but unfortunately for some of the troops
down south whose divisions were going home, guess what? Instead of going home they
got transferred to the 101st, and that happened before—that happened even before and it
happened even more so after what happened to us in that battle. 17:00 It was something
else and you know it’s kind of funny—I know we were in kind of minor skirmishes and
stuff like that, but nothing compared to what we went through at that battle of July 19th,
that lives with me always, and a lot of the other stuff. I can remember from May to
August first or the end of July pretty well, but after that it kind of fades, and I know we—
people have told me that we were in battles then after that. After—I had been in the 2nd
platoon, and I guess because of the many casualties in the 3rd platoon, I was transferred to
the third platoon as a squad leader, and I ended up with the 3rd platoon for the rest of my
tour over there. I was still a squad leader. I basically remained a squad leader for the
majority of my time and occasional—I think there for two or three weeks I became a
platoon leader for the 3rd platoon, you know. 18:10 We still suffered casualties and
34
�stuff, and even in that position it was even more you didn’t want anybody hurt, and you
wonder about the futility of it all, all these battles and stuff.
Interviewer: What was the morale of the guys? Obviously they know the U.S. is
winding down in its commitment and this and that, is that an issue?
You know for some it could be bad. I know there’s times it was probably bad for me, but
considering what we went through and the psychological effect of that period of time,
very volatile for our country, I don’t think it was that bad. 19:02 It could have been
better, sure, sure it could have, but at that time all you did was try to, because you didn’t
know in war, in battle, it’s to help your brother.
Interviewer: Make the best of a worse situation.
Yes, right, that’s all you could do basically. I look back on it now and that’s basically
what we did. Every one of us from platoon leader, squad leader on down is to help save
each other if we had to, so in the end you create that strong special bond of an infantry
man that had been through battle, and that’s why you get that, and a lot of people can’t
understand it unless you went through it.
Interviewer: What was the racial makeup of the unit when you were there do you
recall? 20:06
I’m thinking probably close to what the, maybe, what the racial makeup of the country
was, maybe
Interviewer: About eight or ten percent, maybe?
I would say maybe that and I know we had a lot of problems in the rear with people not
wanting to go out into the bush and there was some racial strife back there too, but I
guess in the end that works with the division commander wanting to keep the best troops
35
�out in the bush to keep us away from that. I would say that worked out pretty good, not
to say that when we got to the rear there was nothing wrong with a nice cold beer and a
―doobie‖ to go along with it, but that was recreational use it was not like how it was, you
know, you’re a Vietnam vet, you come back from Vietnam, you’re the expert when it
comes to ―pot‖, no. 21:07 It was for recreational use, it was a way to wind down, just a
beer and pot went together and you could use it to, maybe, get high and feel good in
certain circumstances. But I would say for the most part, when I was in the position like
I was and we went out to the bush we had our act together. We weren’t going to go
out—and I don’t ever remember that being out there, it might have been, but I can’t ever
remember that being out there when we were out there, we wouldn’t allow it. Especially
when we were with the 3rd platoon we never got it. Merle was a squad leader and I was a
squad leader and we just wouldn’t allow that stuff, no.
Interviewer: There was no racial tension out in the field?
Some people said there was. 22:02 I don’t remember a whole lot, I’m not saying it
didn’t, but I, maybe, didn’t see that much, and there could be some in the squad, but I
told you about--Jiggs Falery went out in the bush with me when we were in the same
platoon and I became the squad leader, he was a black man, and he’s a good friend of
mine today. He used my machine gun and he had a way to temper that. James joined,
joined the military, so he was in for a while and I think, maybe, three or four years, I
can’t remember, so maybe in that respect he helped temper that with me and there was
some guy saying, ―Oh, he’s just picking on us‖, and stuff like that and James would come
in and say, ―Oh, you know‖, which would work to our advantage of the whole squad.
Interviewer: Sure
36
�And he’s a dear friend today. I wish he could have made it up here, but he couldn’t.
23:00 We have kept in touch over the years, you know, and stuff after losing contact
with everybody about the first over ten years. I finally decided to start getting in contact
with everybody and started looking for people through organizations and through luck,
you know, and everything. I remember him quite well.
Interviewer: Now, your year is winding down, tell me about your deross process.
Okay, I got a drop—my deros would have been April 20—no, no, I’m trying to think
how long before you---I was going to ETS out of the army because of all the training I
went through. I went to that for nine months, had a good time, came back and
immediately tried to put in for a leave and was denied. 24:00 I thought at one time I
might get a real job, you know, in some position, and that didn’t pan out either, so I spent
my whole time out in the bush. When it came close to deros, I was a squad leader, we
had a platoon leader and a platoon sergeant, and I was a squad leader and Merle was too
and they brought a new squad leader in to take my place. He was Batts, a good guy and
he had served a tour in Vietnam with the exact same company. I guess, I don’t know if
he had requested to go back to Delta Company, but he was back with Delta Company, 1st
of the 506, and he was a buck sergeant. 25:00 He took over the squad and I was
basically relieved of duty. I was just another grunt now—basically when he came I had
to kind of show him the ropes, you know, and stuff like that, and he finally took over
control of the squad. The day I was supposed to get out of the bush they cancelled—they
cancelled it and I had to wait an extra day. We were in the lowland at the time. We were
like around the first ridgeline around Camp Evans, patrolling the area, secured for this,
because this is when that other operation was going on that we talked about earlier, and
37
�so I finally got out of the bush. 26:00 I had two weeks to be home, two weeks prior to
going home I got out of the bush, maybe not even that long. It seem like by the time I
turned in my equipment, for a couple of days humping out of the area and going down to
the replacement company down at Cam Ranh Bay this time. I got there, got on a bird, the
bird took of and everybody let out a big cheer, I remember that. A long flight back and
we flew to Japan. I think at that time, maybe because of the airplanes they were using, it
was a charter plane, I think by the time we got on the—I think we flew from Japan all the
way to Fort Lewis, Washington. I remember coming in and we’re getting close, and
seeing the ocean, and all of a sudden you see the United States coming into view, and
everybody let out a big cheer. 27:04 You could see the coastline and that was always a
wonderful site, and we got to see Mt. Rainier, which I thought, ―Man that’s a wonderful
site‖. We flew to Fort Lewis and I got ETSed out of the army.
Interviewer: How long were you in Fort Lewis?
Three days, maybe, so I got out, I think, the 5th of April 1971 I want to say. My parents
didn’t know I was coming home. Instead of going military standby, I think I changed
clothes and put on some civilian clothes I had from R&R. I put them on after I ETSed,
got a cab, waited for a couple other guys and we all took a ride down to the Tacoma,
Seatac Airport. 28:08 I went there and got me a flight, and I had to fly from Seattle to
Chicago and get a connecting flight from Chicago to Indianapolis, and I went first class.
I said, ―To hell with military standby‖, and I was on a 747 at the time, and I’m going to
say it was a double decker. Some people said, ―No, it wasn’t‖, but I’m pretty sure that it
was, and I remember a very nice flight and they would say, ―What would you like?‖ I
said, ―Give me a whiskey and water or on the rocks‖, or something like that, so that was
38
�nice and I’m sitting there relaxing, and there were movies on and stuff. I think I finished
with that and had one more and I passed out, so needless to say, I did not enjoy the rest of
my flight. 29:00 They had to wake me up when we got to Chicago, ―You’re here‖, so I
had to hurry up and run to get my flight going.
Interviewer: I didn’t get to ask you, where did you go on R&R?
Taiwan, Taipei, single guy, I didn’t have anyone in my life at the time. I went there and
had a good time, I went with a Marine, he was on R&R too and we were probably both
from the Midwest or something and I said, ―Let’s go together‖, so we did, and we had a
great time. We were on R&R together and had a good time and came back and I thought
maybe I’d get me a real job and, ―No, you’re going back out in the bush‖, and I said,
―Hey god, what you saw back there, forget about it‖
Interviewer: “I was just testing your forgiveness”.
Yes, ―I’m testing your forgiveness‖, yeah.
Interviewer: So, you get back to Indianapolis, surprise the family?
No, I didn’t tell them. 30:02 They knew I was coming home. They thought maybe I –
which would have been around—later on in April.
Interviewer: You had about a two week drop?
Three, yeah, twenty one—twenty two days it ended up. So, I came home and I surprised
them. I got to Indianapolis and tried to get a cab to my house, which was probably,
where my parents lived at that time five miles from the airport. I couldn’t get a cab
because there were a lot of planes coming in, soldiers going to AIT at Fort Benjamin
Harrison there in Indianapolis, AIT at Fort Ben
Interviewer: Bean counter AIT
39
�Yes, yes, and it was hard for me to get a cab and I remember I was getting ―pissed‖, but I
finally got one and went home and surprised them, and of course, they were happy to see
me. I remember there for a while I guess I just got depressed. 31:06 I didn’t write
anybody, my parents got upset, and the next thing you know I got a letter from a
congressman or senator, and the company commander said, ―You go write a letter to your
parents now‖, so I had to write a letter to them. After what I had been through it took me
a while to get back and then I started writing again. That’s basically it, came home, run
around for a while, got married, had kids, got divorced, it didn’t work out, your 2000, so
I’ve been on my own. I got a good relationship with my son.
Interviewer: Well, thanks for sharing your story, it was fantastic and we appreciate
it.
All right 31:59
40
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Cox, Anthony (Interview transcript and video), 2011
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Cox, Anthony
Description
An account of the resource
Tony Cox was born in Indianapolis, Indiana on August 31st, 1949. He received basic training at Ft. Knox, Kentucky and AIT at Ft. Polk, Lousiana. He also went to NCO school in Ft. Benning Georgia. He was assigned to Delta Company, 1st of the 506. He became squad leader after being in the field a while. In the battle around Firebase Ripcord in July, 1970, his company got into trouble in an area southeast of Hill 805. It was a very hot LZ and there were many casualties and many wounded. Mr. Cox went back to the bush after being treated for a gunshot wound, transferred to the 3rd platoon as a squad leader for the rest of his tour.
Contributor
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McGregor, Michael (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Language
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2011-10-06
Identifier
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CoxT1278V
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f1e6667b5edd128ab834a85f67f67564.mp4
81f1e59fc7d05bbd6a80ed24bf11f594
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ac4ea816a58bd8566302f1dda6c6356d.pdf
a3a5b9989099dc90598008557b74011b
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
KOLLEEN CRANE
Born: Midland, Texas
Resides:
Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project
Transcribed by: Claire Herhold, February 2, 2013
Interviewer: 00:58 Basically, what I’d like to do here will be to just start out and I’ll ask
you kind of where you were and what you were doing at the time when the war started and
so we can get your background, and tell us something about where you lived, and then that
at that point you can introduce the story of how you met your husband and we can just
follow the two of you after that.
I was a telephone operator and I had been midnight to six at Abilene Christian College, and I’d
gone home for the summer and was on the switchboard between the long-distance calls and the
local calls. In those days you picked up a cord and punched it in one to the other to get them
connected. And all of the sudden both boards lit up like a Christmas tree and we couldn’t
imagine what’s going on and out chief operator finally got around to us to say that Pearl Harbor
had been bombed. 2:01 It was an exciting time. I mean, we were stunned, you know, that this
would happen.
Interviewer: And what happened in the community after that?
I don’t remember.
Interviewer: So Pearl Harbor hits and you remember where you were and what you were
doing. You were at the switchboard then. How much longer was it between when that
started and when you met your husband?
You know, I can’t remember. I know there were three of us girls from church that went bowling
on Sunday afternoon and we’d been paying for it ever since. But then the three fellows came in
�and we asked them to teach us how to keep score, so they did. And then we’d invite them to go
to church with us and then come home with me and so they all came out to the house to meet my
parents. 3:01
Interviewer: So was there an air base in town?
Oh yes, Midland Air Force Base came in there. The first bunch of troops came in, not for the Air
Force, but for the weather that would be the driest of any in our country over the summer time.
And we had the hardest rain we had had for years and Daddy got out his little canoe and we
paddled down the street in front of our house, it was so hard.
Interviewer: Do you know why they wanted the dry weather?
It was so the troops could camp out any way. I don’t remember.
Interviewer: That would make sense because there were troop camps all over the South in
that period, and so we’re familiar with that. Did you go back to school after that?
No, I didn’t go back.
Interviewer: So you continued to work for the phone company? 4:01
Right, everywhere I went, I got a job, didn’t have any trouble. I think I had six hundred dollars
in the bank when we got married. And we did real well. When we went to Massachusetts we
found that people were friendly and warm and very generous and helpful to us. I had thought
those Northerners would be cold.
Interviewers: Yankees aren’t all bad. Let’s go back to the time when you met your
husband-to-be, that is. Do you remember about how long it was between the time you met
him and when you got married?
It was about a year later.
Interviewer: And what was he doing during that year?
�He was a crew chief for the Air Force.
Interviewer: And what did that mean?
B-24s, to take care of the mechanical equipment. He served as a tail bomber too on some of the
training just to be ready in case he was needed. 5:03
Interviewer: Was his job to train other men to do these jobs or just to maintain the planes
while they were training in them?
Right.
Interviewer: Do you know why it was that he wasn’t sent for service overseas?
The war ended in Europe. He was in cadet training by that time when the war ended.
Interviewer: Do you remember what year you got married in?
February 14th or 15th, ’41.
Interviewer: Okay, well ’41, now that would be…
That was Pearl Harbor Day. I’m not really…
Interviewer: Well, Pearl Harbor was December of 1941, so the Army would have set up in
early in ’42. So maybe ’43?
Even ’44.
Interviewer: ’44. And that might make sense in terms of our time frame here.
February ’44.
Interviewer: What was it like to be married to somebody in the service at this time? 6:03
Well, I guess I was young enough I really didn’t see how bad things were in our world. Just to
be together, do my job…
Interviewer: So did you continue to work for the phone company in these places?
Oh no, oh no. When I came to Michigan I had a family and busy on the farm.
�Interviewer: But during that year when you were moving around?
Yes, every place I went I got a job with the phone company.
Interviewer: In your hometown, how did the people there view or deal with the guys at the
air base? What kind of relationship was there between the town and the base?
I think because the troopers that had come in first misused the friendliness, that people were
really careful about the Air Force men that came in.
Interviewer: How did they misuse the friendliness? What kind of things were going on?
7:04
Take advantage of the girls and things like that.
Interviewer: Did things improve later on in terms of how the men conducted themselves?
I think things went fine after that group left.
Interviewer: Do you know if they were Army soldiers or if they were just men who were
building the base to start with?
I’m not sure what their duty was there. I just know they got rained out.
Interviewer: When he went then to training at Ouachita college, what was that experience
like? What did he do? What did you do?
He was very regimented and classes and everything but he was free to come home at night.
There was some foolishness going on. The men were swinging out over the river, Ouachita
river, and the officers put a stop to that in a hurry. 8:03 We’re not going to have something
happen to these men we’ve invested so much in already.
Interviewer: And how long were you there?
Maybe six months? Nine months?
�Interviewer: And do you recall what kind of classes was he taking? Was he taking college
courses or military training?
For officership training. I don’t know. I know the plans later at South Carolina were for, they
were testing gasoline usage of the planes and the bomb site was fairly new at that time, so they
were working with that too. Then when things slowed down in Europe they put him to doing
hurricane hunters, they were groups of planes that did that. 9:05 They’d fly into the eye of the
hurricane.
Interviewer: What kind of aircraft were they using?
B-24.
Interviewer: And did he describe that or tell you what that was like?
No, it was just very interesting to realize you were getting into the center where it was still. I
guess it was still. That was the feeling I got from his description.
Interviewer: Did they act as if that job were particularly dangerous or was that just
routine?
Yes, that was very dangerous. He lost five buddies of a box around him. One above him and
two on each side. One plane crash. That really touched us all.
Interviewer: We’ll go back again to Ouachita college while you’re staying there. What
were you doing while he was in training or in class? 10:07
I was at the telephone company. We had an apartment there and we just lived like a family with
our meals there and everything.
Interviewer: Now was there a different relationship between the local community and the
men staying at the college than you had back at the air base?
The only thing I know, the church just opened us with arms. So good.
�Interviewer: Did they like having married couples come as opposed to all these single men?
I don’t remember any difficulty.
Interviewer: Then when you went up to Massachusetts, what was his assignment up there?
I don’t know. I know we arrived in a record-breaking blizzard.
Interviewer: And how did you get there? 11:02 Did you take a train?
I think we were on a train. We did most of our traveling by train in those days. And finally he
got together with his group and they went out to the field there, Westover Field, I think. And I
found an apartment with a couple and just really felt at home with them. They were wonderful
people. They welcomed the soldiers in.
Interviewer: What part of Massachusetts was that in? Do you remember?
Springfield.
Interviewer: Okay, so western Massachusetts then. Was this a large base at this time?
I’m not sure. I didn’t get out to the base. It seemed like we were just days or weeks there and
then shipped down to South Carolina.
Interviewer: And then how long was he stationed in South Carolina? 12:00
This all happened in a couple of years. I don’t think he was there that long. Maybe nine months.
Interviewer: Do you think that his experience in the military and training, was that
something that kind of followed him through the rest of his life?
Yes, he learned the big engine care and his father purchased a speed sprayer, and it’s made with
the propellers like an air plane and he used that for throwing the mist up in the air as you drove
through the orchards, sprayed the trees.
Interviewer: So then, what kind of career did he have? What was he doing?
He was an orchard man. He’s a fruit grower.
�Interviewer: Did you have your own orchard out in Fennville?
Yes, generations have been there. Still his cousins are still at it. 13:01
Interviewer: When we study the history of the war on the homefront and so forth, we get a
lot of stuff about shortages and rationing and all of these kinds of things, and sort of how
difficult it was just to run a household and that kind of thing. What kind of experiences
did you have with that? How was the war period different for you than what came after
just in terms of how you took care of things?
I guess after the war is when I learned, well during the war I visited Fennville several times, but
Dick’s father was not one to complain at all, but he did say he saw people misusing the tires
where the farmers really need to get their fruit to market. That was one thing that was a
hardship. The gasoline shortage, I think we were very careful. 14:01 I don’t remember too much
about the food and the sugar and those things. I remember one time my little garden had an
abundant crop of leaf lettuce and so the groceryman told me, “Would you bring in a supply?”
and I needed soap, so he traded me a bushel basket of leaf lettuce for a box of Tide or Oxydol.
Interviewer: Did you have to look after yourself and live on your own before you got
married? Or when you got married was that the first time that you sort of set up a
household for yourself?
Oh, it was the first time for both of us, and as we travelled we just rented an apartment. One
place we bought the furniture and as we were ready to leave we sold it. That was a good
education for me. 15:00
Interviewer: Did your husband feel like he was sort of doing his job or what needed to be
done or did he think that he should be serving overseas?
�He was ready to go overseas. Twice. Because we went out to Boise after Arkansas and I had
told you a little bit about the hunting, the incendiary balloons there.
Interviewer: Why don’t you tell me a little more about that? What was going on and what
was he doing with that?
He was flying in the plane to hunt for those and to shoot them down if necessary, or, I don’t
know how they would handle it if they saw one or if they saw one where the balloon had started
a fire, to alert the others to it.
Interviewer: And did he see any balloons or any fires?
He was threatened with death if they told anything that they saw, so I still to this day, I don’t
know.
Interviewer: We’ll have to go look that up. 16:02 Now, just some miscellaneous details.
What was your husband’s first name?
Richard.
Interviewer: And do you know what his highest rank was?
He was a staff sergeant, crew chief.
Interviewer: We’ll put them both down because they are both...
Voice offscreen: Crew chief is a billet. It’s like an MOS. I apologize.
Interviewer: Now you’re getting into really modern terms there. What that does, though,
those are two different things that will tell somebody searching a database what to look for
so that’s sort of helpful in terms of piecing things together.
There were two men from Michigan that left here with him. They didn’t get back together.
They didn’t get in the same group. 17:03
Interviewer: And did he see them after the war do you know?
�Oh yes. We visited Howard Beagle from Fennville, and he tells about the invasion of France and
dropping the paratroopers on and seeing them shot out of the air. He turned white overnight. It
was really terrible, and he met his wife in the hospital there where she had, she was nursing.
Then they came back to her hometown in Louisiana, and we visited them. We’d go down to
Texas to see my folks and swing by Louisiana.
Interviewer: Do you have other memories of those war years or things that stick in your
mind out of that period just about what life was like or what your husband was doing?
18:03
The anxiety and just trusting him to God when he was in danger, and not knowing what danger
he was in. So you didn’t dwell on it. I got by pretty well that way.
Interviewer: Aside from when he was doing the hurricane hunting were there other periods
or phases in his service where you were, you felt like he was in danger or he acted that
way?
Yes, well swinging on a rope over the Ouachita River.
Interviewer: Well, all right.
No they had to be children for a while when there was that much tension.
Interviewer: But was the rest of his duty particularly dangerous? Or were there a lot of
accidents on these bases? Did people crash the planes or other things like that?
Probably there were things, a lot of things that I didn’t hear about. 19:02
Interviewer: When he’d come home or wherever at night from his days of training and
flying, did he talk about what he was doing or did he just talk about other things?
�Oh, he was a communicator and he talked all the time, but I don’t remember his telling about
the…he was so shaken up about those five that he lost around him but that’s the only thing that
really stuck in my mind.
Interviewer: All right, then. I think that pretty well covers the basic set of things for us.
I’ll just quickly go here to see. What do you say when they’re drafted and then they’re delayed?
His actually going in was delayed? 20:04
Interviewer: It’s called “deferred.”
Because they let him and Howard Beagle stay home and get the harvest in that year because the
farmers were in such need of help. I guess that’s all I had.
Interviewer: Thank you very much.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Crane, Kolleen (Interview transcript and video), 2007
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Crane, Kolleen
Description
An account of the resource
Kolleen Crane is the widow of WW II veteran Richard Crane. In the interview she tells of being a telephone operator when Pearl Harbor was attacked. She met her husband at Midland (TX) Air Force base, where he served as a B-24 crew chief, responsible for maintaining the air craft. He was sent to school at Washtenaw College as part of the Officer Training program. After leaving Washtenaw they went to Massachusetts, then to South Carolina where they spent the rest of his enlistment.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Army spouses
Military spouses
Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American
Video recordings
Women
Language
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eng
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2007-05-22
Identifier
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CraneK
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/13ca080b07f9a23353b17e95f888d3c8.mp4
318283492447363e16aaa29456b7886b
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bcc7d354a8d64d1e6b47e6c577f91121.pdf
363e9558d3fceb188d94d3a166852cd3
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans' History Project
Robert Crans
Vietnam War
1 hour 34 minutes 37 seconds
(00:00:40) Early Life
-Born in Hastings, Michigan on July 8, 1947
-Grew up in a single-parent home with his mother
-Grew up in Hastings through middle school
-Grandma ran a restaurant in Freeport, Michigan
-Moved there with his mother to help run the restaurant
-Attended Middleville High School
-Graduated from there in July 1965
-There weren't a lot of jobs in the area
-Uncle suggested that he look for work at Michigan State University
-Went to MSU to apply for a job and got hired on the same day
-Moved to East Lansing, Michigan and got an apartment so he was close to the school
-It was a little different being a worker at the school and not a student
-Worked at the Kellogg Hotel & Conference Center
-Went to basketball games and concerts at MSU
(00:03:05) Enlisting in the Navy Pt. 1
-In January 1966 he received a letter notifying him to report for a draft physical
-Family had a military background
-Relatives served in World War I, World War II, and the Korean War
-Uncle advised him to look into the Navy
-Talked to a Navy recruiter and decided to enlist
-Worked at Michigan State until late May 1966
-Went home for a week to say good bye to his family and friends
-Reported for duty in June 1966
(00:04:5) Awareness of the Vietnam War Pt. 1
-Nightly news talked about the troop buildup in Vietnam
-There wasn't public support like in World War II
-Had friends avoid the draft and others friends that did military service
(00:05:25) Enlisting in the Navy Pt. 2
-No matter where you were in the military you could be in danger
-Had no problem with serving, but didn't want to be in the jungle
-Enlisted for four years
-No choice in training he wanted
-That was determined by an aptitude test
-There was a large pool of recruits in the Navy, so the Navy could be selective
(00:07:04) Basic Training Pt. 1
-Sent to Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois for basic training
-Emphasis on being neat, timely, and working with a unit
-Emphasizing that you were no longer an individual and other people depended on you
-It was hot that summer in Illinois
-Days were spent doing physical training or classroom work
-Came out of basic training feeling more confident
�-Lasted eight weeks
-Got done in August 1966
-There was one training company totally comprised of men from Wisconsin
-Rest of the men were from all over the country
-Exposure to different people and different mindsets
-Stark differences in mentality between the Northerners and Southerners
-Navy instructors were career officers and in their late 30s or 40s
-One officer called recruits into his office to tell them to work harder or face starting over
(00�:11:00) Adjusting to the Navy
-At his first duty station he was with completely new people and doing menial work
-At his second duty station he adjusted better
-At his last duty station he had experience and was comfortable
(00:12:05) Basic Training Pt. 2
-Terrified he would make a mistake in basic training and have to start over or get kicked out
-Uncertain whether he was really Navy material or not
-Remembers some recruits that got recycled
-They were made to do the same tasks over and over because they couldn't do them properly
-He had to get into the mindset of being in a unit
(00:14:49) Duty on the USS Lexington (CV-16)
-Assigned to the aircraft carrier the USS Lexington (CV-16)
-Operated out of Pensacola, Florida
-Ship's main duty was to train naval aviators for service on aircraft carriers
-Ship went to sea for a week so pilots could do day and night landing qualifications
-Spent a week at Corpus Christi, Texas for jet pilots
-Had pilots train with propeller-driven aircraft at Pensacola
-The first time he was at sea he still felt the ship rocking back and forth
-He was on the deck crew
-Got lines off the ship to get underway
-Spliced rope
-Older officers on the deck crew trained him
-They were good men, but they disciplined you if you did something wrong
-Enjoyed working on the carrier because he felt he was learning practical things
-Spent one week at sea, one week at Corpus Christi, and the rest of the time at Pensacola
-He felt it was boring duty
-Stationed on the USS Lexington from September 1966 to July 1967
(00:18:13) Downtime in Pensacola
-Went into Pensacola on leave
-Found it to be a pretty city
-Had never seen the Gulf of Mexico before
-New experience being in the South
-Remembers it was 75 degrees on Christmas Day 1966
-Going into the city got boring after a while
-There was a movie theater, a USO shop, and a place for sailors to sleep
-Befriended the men he worked with on the ship, and they went into Pensacola together
-Civilians in Pensacola treated the sailors pretty well
-Understood the servicemen were an integral part of the local economy
-As long as you weren't a troublemaker then the civilians didn't mind
-Found it hard to meet girls in Pensacola because they weren't interested in sailors
-Found them to be too transient
�-Girls liked the pilots better
(00:21:16) Awareness of the Vietnam War Pt. 2
-Didn't pay much attention to the Vietnam War
-Focused more on keeping up with his family and being in the Navy
(00:21:48) Getting Injured & Orders for Vietnam
-Had an accident on the USS Lexington
-Worked in a compartment two decks below the fo’c’sle
-They were in the harbor at Corpus Christi
-He put everything away, went up the stairs, and slipped on a puddle of oil
-Which resulted in him slamming his jaw into the hatch on his way out
-He was taken to the hospital in Corpus Christi because he broke his jaw
-Had to have his jaw reset, wired shut, and he had to spend six weeks in the hospital
-The ship no longer needed him so he was sent to Charleston, South Carolina
-He thought he was going for a cruise in the Mediterranean Sea
-Instead, he received orders for Vietnam
-Shocking, but at the same time exciting
(00:25:36) Assignment to the USS Robert H. McCard (DD-822)
-Heard a petty officer on the USS Robert H. McCard (DD-822) needed laundry help
-He volunteered for that because he didn't want to be on the deck crew again
-Assigned to the destroyer, USS Robert H. McCard (DD-822)
-Named after a Marine, Robert H. McCard who was a Medal of Honor recipient
-Built at the end of World War II
-It rolled 15 to 20 degrees when it went to sea
-Had to delicately walk around the ship
-336 men aboard the ship
-Focused on antisubmarine warfare
-Rockets, torpedoes, and primitive drones for detecting submarines
-Converted to antisubmarine warfare after the Korean War
-Very small quarters
-Three high bunks with a footlocker for your possession
-Cramped eating quarters
-Had to quickly eat and move so other crewmen could eat
-There was decent food on the ship
-Baked its own bread and they had fresh food every week
-Had movies in the mess hall at night
(00:30:52) Duties on the USS Robert H. McCard (DD-822)
-Washing machines on the ship could wash 150 pounds of laundry in one cycle
-Weighed laundry bags to see how much laundry they could wash
-Had to wash and press officers' uniforms
-Did that for enlisted men's dress uniforms as a favor
-Worked eight hour shifts in the laundry room
-Three men worked in the laundry room, one at a time
-Men working in the engine room needed to have their clothes washed separately
-Worked on the night shift (11 PM to 7 AM)
-Nobody was up and bothering him
-Spent his time reading when he wasn't working
-Wasn't difficult work
-Had different work when they went to general quarters
-Specific duty for an emergency or if the ship was under attack
�-Worked in the aft aid station on a sound-powered telephone
-If someone got hurt he would be the first to relay that information
-Aid station was in the ship's barber shop
(00:35:04) Deployment to Vietnam
-Left the United States on November 1, 1967
-Sailed past Florida, through the Caribbean Sea, and to the Panama Canal
-All of the ships lined up at the Panama Canal to go through the locks
-It was very hot
-Had to refuel on the Pacific Ocean side of the Panama Canal
-Went to a huge warehouse that served as a bar
-Sailed to San Diego, then on to Hawaii, to Guam, and then to Subic Bay, Philippines
-Took a month to get to Subic Bay
-Got off the ship at San Diego
-Pretty city
-Not very Navy friendly
-There were a lot of interesting places to see
-Visited the San Diego Zoo at Balboa Park
-Spent three days there
-Hawaii was a really different place
-Friend was stationed in Pearl Harbor
-Went and visited his friend
-Had Thanksgiving Dinner 1967 together
-Not allowed to get off the ship at Guam because it was a strategic base
-Subic Bay served as hub for ships serving at Yankee Station off the coast of Vietnam
-Served as a place to get supplies
-Base was near the city of Olongapo
-It was a wild and different city
-There were bars everywhere and entertainment for sailors and Marines
-Decided that he was young and ought to take advantages of the opportunity
-First time in a foreign country
-Told not to leave the main street in Olongapo
-Told not to expect protection from the local police
-Told to avoid being alone in the city
-Easy to get mugged
(00:42:07) Yankee Station
-Ship was sent to Yankee Station in the Gulf of Tonkin off the coast of Vietnam
-Nicknamed the “Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club”
-There were two aircraft carriers
-Jets flying into Vietnam for bombing missions
-Destroyer provided two things:
-Pilot recovery if a plane went down in the Gulf of Tonkin
-Radar screen
-Carriers used their radar to track their own planes
-Destroyers watched for incoming enemy aircraft and ships
-Spent 21 days on station their first time
-Second time was during the Tet Offensive and the USS Pueblo Incident in January 1968
-The carriers had to provide air support to ground forces or go to North Korea
-Stayed on station for 32 days
-Incredibly tedious
�-Had to rendezvous with ships to get refueled and resupplied
-Got mail every three or four days to every two weeks
-Helicopters from carriers brought mail to the destroyers
-Needed to get ammunition resupplied
-Helicopters took off casings and a ship brought in fresh ammunition
-Provided gunfire support
-Meant they supported troops near the demilitarized zone or south of the demilitarized zone
-If US troops were under attack the ship sailed to within three miles of the shore to fire
-North Vietnamese had the ability to return fire at American ships
-Feared getting hit by NVA artillery and being forced overboard
(00:50:52) Emergency Leave
-Grandmother got very sick, so the Red Cross got Robert emergency leave
-He was picked up by a helicopter and taken to an aircraft carrier
-Flown to Subic Bay and spent the night there
-Flew to Guam, then to Hawaii, then to San Francisco
-Went from Chicago to Michigan
-Got two weeks of leave
-Ship went on gunfire support shortly after he left for emergency leave
-Able to attend his grandmother's funeral
(00:54:32) Public Opinion of Vietnam War
-While he was home on emergency leave he got an idea of what civilians thought of the war
-Went to a college party
-People asked if he had killed anyone
-Wide variety of opinions concerning the war
-He noticed a lot of dissent concerning the war
-Didn't want to argue with anyone about the war
-After the Navy, when he was at college, he only associated with other veterans
-Wanted to avoid tension or conflict
(00:56:20) Temporary Duty
-Sent to Charleston for temporary duty until the USS Robert H. McCard returned
-Worked in the laundry room on a ship in Charleston
-Pressed clothes all day and enjoyed that duty
(00:57:22) Barber Duty on the USS Robert H. McCard
-Rejoined the USS Robert H. McCard as a barber
-Received two weeks of training
-Did that until he left the ship
-Very routine since the haircuts were basically all the same
-Had a commodore as a regular customer
-Had been in the Navy for a long time
-Got to know each other fairly well
-Had evenings off
-Started at 8 AM and worked until 5 PM
-Cut the hair of officers and enlisted men
-Easy duty
-Met and got to know everyone on the ship
(01:00:41) Repairs & Shakedown Cruise
-Had to go into dry dock for repairs
-He helped in the laundry room while the ship got repairs
-Once repairs were complete they went on a shakedown cruise to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba
�-Note: Shakedown cruise is done after a ship gets repairs, insuring repairs held up
-Got to see some of the Caribbean islands
(01:02:17) Operation Silver Tower
-Participated in Operation Silver Tower in the north Atlantic Ocean
-Using new radar that made them look like a merchant ship on a radar scope
-They also put up lights to make the destroyer look more like a merchant ship
-Job was to “infiltrate” the area of operations of other NATO ships
-Command wanted to see how well the new radar worked
-Sailed to Nova Scotia, to Greenland, then to the North Sea
-Operated in the North Sea, undetected, before announcing who they really were
-Interesting operation
(01:04:25) Repairs in England
-A hole formed in the hull so they sailed to Southampton, England for repairs
-Spent three days in England
-Got to go ashore in Southampton and visit London, twice
-People in Southampton were very hospitable toward Americans
-Americans were a novelty in London
-Saw the Crown Jewels
-Visited Piccadilly Circus
-Saw the Changing of the Guard at Buckingham Palace
(01:05:58) Storm in the Atlantic Ocean
-Left England and began sailing across the Atlantic Ocean to return to the United States
-Ran into a major storm and had to sail south to avoid it
-Wound up near the Azores off the coast of Africa
-Ship listed 30 degrees in both directions
-Had some leaking because of the force of the storm
-Glad to get back to land
-He had experienced a storm before when the ship participated in Operation Silver Tower
-Sailed through a storm in the North Sea
-Storm in the Atlantic was far more powerful though
-He didn't get seasick in the storm, and most men didn't either, but a few did
(01:08:25) Soviet Presence
-Always aware that the Soviets monitored NATO operations
-Didn't know the purpose of the operation, but knew they were happening
-Some friends in the Baltic Sea told him they encountered Soviet submarines
-The submarines didn't attack, but they did make their presence known
-Conducted antisubmarine drills to prepare for the possibility of a Soviet attack
-Chased around American submarines
-Difficult because the American nuclear submarines were faster than the destroyer
(01�:10:37) Assignment to the USS New (DD-818)
-Returned to the United States and shortly thereafter got reassigned to a different ship
-Different jobs became available to enlisted men
-Opportunity came up for him to work in ship store records
-Sent to Norfolk, Virginia to board the USS New (DD-818) as the ship serviceman clerk
-Had to pass a school before joining the crew in that position
-As the ship serviceman clerk he took care of three areas:
-Accounted for money spent on the ship
-Bought goods for the ship
-Kept track of duty-free goods (cigarettes and alcohol mostly)
�-Sailed down to the Caribbean Sea to pick up alcohol
-Each sailor was allowed a gallon of alcohol
-Some men didn't drink, but they took their ration anyway to give to other sailors
-This led to some sailors having three gallons of alcohol as opposed to one
-Cigarettes were only 10 cents a pack
-Customs agents came aboard to keep track of how many cases of cigarettes the ship had
-Came aboard before the ship left to note how many were on the ship
-Came aboard after the ship returned to see how many cases had been sold
-If the number they counted didn't match with Robert's ledger there would be problems
-If they believed Robert had altered the numbers he could have faced jail time
-Worked with an accountant that had worked for the Pillsbury Company
-He was very helpful and kept very good records
-For the sale of cigarettes it worked something like this:
-They left port with a number of cases
-Sailors would then buy the cases and Robert kept track of how many he sold
-If he sold X number of cases, then Y number of cases needed to remain
-Sailors were only allowed to buy duty-free cigarettes once they were at least three miles to sea
(01:15:54) Places Visited
-Got to go ashore in Hong Kong
-Extraordinary city
-Went to Tiger Balm Garden
-Murals, sculptures, pagoda
-There were tailors in the city that could make a good, but inexpensive suit in only 48 hours
-Visited the British naval club
-Traveled with friends whenever he could
-Went to Tiger Balm Garden on his own, but was with a group of tourists
-Visited Kaohsiung, Taiwan and went to the British naval club
-Huge club with a bar and a casino
-By traveling with the Navy he got to experience a lot of new things he otherwise wouldn't have
-Went to Montego Bay, Jamaica
-Went to the island of Saint Croix in the US Virgin Islands
-Spent a week there
-Got to go aboard an American submarine
-Cut hair for the men on the submarine and they all tipped him a $1
-He had never gotten tips before
-Worked in the forward torpedo room
-Got to eat dinner and have ice cream with the crew
-Had to sign a document that said where he was if something happened to him
-Got to go into the periscope room and watch as the sub submerged
-All of the hotels on Saint Croix were privately owned
-USO gave passes to servicemen so they could stay at the hotels and use the beaches
-Remembers going from Christiansted to Frederiksted
-On the way, he and his friends passed a place with a gathering of luxury cars
-Decided to go in and see what was going on
-Got some food from the buffet and a few drinks
-One of the guests asked who he was
-Simply responded that he worked for the government and was left alone
(01:22:56) Treatment of Veterans
-There were a lot of times when he didn't get respect as a Vietnam War veteran
�-In his hometown he remembers the World War II veterans got respect
-Had to wait 45 years for people to finally acknowledge and thank him for his service
-Family always respected him for his service, but other people only tolerated that he was a veteran
(01:24:27) End of Service
-Didn't want to have to go to sea every six or nine months if he stayed in the Navy
-Most of the jobs he'd had in the Navy weren't fit for shore duty
-Didn't want to be in the Navy Reserve because he still would have had active duty obligations
-Couldn't see himself making a career out of the Navy
-President Nixon was starting to downsize the military in 1970
-This resulted in men being discharged 90 days earlier than originally planned
-He was discharged at the end of February 1970
(01:26:23) Life after the Service
-Planned on going to college, getting married, and leaving his service behind him
-Met his first wife when he was home on leave
-They got engaged when he was still in the Navy
-Got married in 1971
-His son was born in 1972
-Wife was always proud of his service
-Went to college to study business
-Studied at Grand Rapids Junior College (now Community College) for one year
-Transferred to Western Michigan University
-Graduated from there in 1974
-Worked for Steketee's Department Store
-Worked as the assistant buyer for men's ware
-Became a sales manager
-Worked in boy's ware
-Had difficulty making money in that position though
-Worked as a manager for a national clothing company
-Problem with that job is it required a lot of travel
-Got a job in customer service with a local cable company
-Worked for them for 26 years
-Got a job in inventory control
-Worked that job for 20 years then retired
(01:30:32) American Legion
-Eventually decided to get involved with a veterans' organization
-Apprehensive about joining a veterans' organization due to being a Vietnam War veteran
-Filled out an application for the American Legion in 2008
-Visited different posts until he discovered Post #258
-Joined American Legion Post #258 in Grand Rapids, Michigan
-Only for Navy, Marine, and Coast Guard veterans
-Founded in 1922 by World War I veterans
-They were sailors and Marines that had served with the French as artillery crews
-Befriended some of the men at the post
-Became the 2nd vice commander, then 1st vice commander, and finally the commander
(01:33:43) Reflections on Servie
-Service allowed him to believe in himself
-Learned a lot about himself that he didn't know before he joined the Navy
-Instilled in him a sense of awareness
-Not only did he have responsibilities for himself, but for other people as well
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
CransR1895V
Title
A name given to the resource
Crans, Robert K (Interview outline and video), 2015
Description
An account of the resource
Robert Crans was born in Hastings, Michigan on July 8, 1947. He enlisted in the Navy in early 1966 and reported for basic training at Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois in June 1966. He served with the deck crew on the USS Lexington (CV-16) in Pensacola, Florida and Corpus Christi, Texas from September 1966 to July 1967. He served aboard the USS Robert H. McCard (DD-822) in the laundry room and in late 1967 was stationed off the coast of Vietnam at Yankee Station supporting the aircraft carriers there. He also served on that ship as a barber and participated in Operation Silver Tower, a NATO exercise involving early stealth technology in the North Sea. The final ship he served on was the USS New (DD-818) as the ship's serviceman clerk. Due to downsizing of the military he was discharged 90 days early in late February 1970.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Crans, Robert K.
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Subject
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Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Navy
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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eng
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2015-10-29
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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application/pdf
video/mp4
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8b7d6f61a8a81aa6f5a30e9853379510.mp4
ce14421eaec07983fd14625c0f7dcaa4
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9296b7bfcc129925e2acb22e73f1bfe8.pdf
d264f69033d9a116c41d698829ac2df8
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Wade C. Cratsenberg
(00:54: 15)
(0:00) Growing up
• Born Wilcox Hospital, MI
• first of seven kids
• kindergarten through grade school went to a lot of different country schools
o dad drove truck so moved a lot
(2:20) Losing a finger
• At 12 years old, lost 2nd finger on left hand at first joint
• When enlisting, Cratsenberg had to have 2 or 3 sets of fingerprints taken because
the officers couldn’t decide if they wanted to print his stub of a finger or leave the
box blank
• During enlistment, a lieutenant told Cratsenberg he was going to get a medical
discharge due to his finger
• Cratsenberg was angry and said that it wasn’t his trigger finger and that he was
right handed and could shoot with either hand
(5:54) High school
• Attended 1 or 2 country schools
• Graduated from high school in 1964
(7:23) After high school
• Enlisted in the Navy
o Aviation and metalsmith with a cross training in hydraulics
• After the Navy, went into general mechanic work
(8:12) First days of basic training and the Navy uniform
• Basic was at Great Lakes, IL
• Had a hell of a time passing swimming – “swam like a rock”
• Every part of naval uniform is designed to be a floatation device
o Hat = if snap the brim down and put between legs, it will keep your lower
half afloat
o Pants = tie a knot in each cuff and can be used as water wings
o Blue shirt = if blow it up with air, it will keep you afloat
(10:07) More about basic training
• Learned to tie all kinds of knots and splice a rope or line
o Slip, half hitch, square, etc.
• Firefighting around naval air
• Learned how to put petroleum fire out with water
• Had to go through a “smoke house” for training
o Learned to put on gas mask with in the smoke house that was so filled
with smoke, could not see your hand
(15:30) Barracks
�• Same as the ones used in WWII
• 1 sheet board, bunks
• 150 people in a barracks
• 3 doors in the entire place
• Shower and bathrooms = no privacy
(17:11) After basic training
• Went to metalsmith school in Millington, TN for 2-3 months
• went to Naval Air Station on southern tip of San Francisco Bay, CA
• 3 squadrons – VR8, VR7, VR22
o VR8 (Mofit Field) was maintenance
o VR7 and VR22 were flying squadrons
• Cratsenberg was a part of VR8
o utilized and C-130s , which were some of the old military transport
services (aka military airlift command)
o the planes and supplies = Air Force
o bases = Navy
(19:37) Advanced training on a typical day
• Learned every aspect of how to make a patch using a doubler, how to put in
rivets, etc.
• In depth discussion of putting in rivets and how air planes were patched
(26:28) Transitioning to VR7
• Took A-7 course at Naval Air Station 42 miles out of Fresno toward coast of CA
• Became part of the training squadron
o Trained maintenance and pilots on A7 course prior to going over to
Vietnam
Trained maintenance in how to maintain and repair planes
Trained pilots how to fly, take off and land on aircraft carriers
(30:03) Aircraft carriers
• Would be out on the carriers for 2 weeks at a time
• Job on the carrier was the “final check”
o Check tail hooks and grease before the take off
o Very dangerous position
If pilots miss arresting cable when the come in, the have “a wild
plane” coming at you
If plane fails to take off, it would blow up next to you
• On the biggest aircraft carriers the military had at that time
o Coral Sea
o Kitty Hawk
o Ranger
(32:44) Living quarters on the aircraft carriers
• Sleeping spaces had ceilings not over 8 feet tall and bunks stacked 3 high
• 3 decks on the ship
(35:10) Duties on aircraft carriers
• Served three 2-week stints on the carriers
• In between stints, back at naval base
�• Discusses in great detail the work done on planes
(45:13) Discharge
• Once discharged, took a bus from Lemark, CA to MI
o Big homecoming
(47:02) Impact of the Navy
• Used training in hydraulics and metal smithing for years
• Worked close to home
o Garages and truck shops
Did a lot of work on diesel engines
In high school, worked for Detroit Diesel when it was called GM
Diesel
(50:00) Life now
• In late 1980s, took a fall that left him paralyzed from the waist down
• Last 5 or 6 years the injury has extended to being neck down
�
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Cratsenberg, Wade C. (Interview outline and video), 2007
Creator
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Cratsensberg, Wade C.
Description
An account of the resource
Wade Cratsenberg is a Vietnam veteran who served in the United States Navy from November 1964 to November 1970 in California. In this interview, Cratsenberg discusses the behind-the-scene work done by the Navy during Vietnam. As part of the VR7 and VR8 squadrons, Cratsenberg was responsible for the aircraft carriers, carrying out both plane maintenance and pilot maintenance training. He provides detailed accounts of the work he did on planes as well as the usefulness of the Navy uniform, and the lifestyle and dangers of working on an aircraft carrier.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer)
Collins, Carol (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Navy
Aircraft carriers
Veterans
Video recordings
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2007-05-07
Identifier
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CratsenbergW
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/15bed5bb3811867abfb16750b09548d9.mp3
d2da8c60105b541e853cff0537e1ea64
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/95d666a7c26a01dcc7fa10ec2104d233.pdf
b4ecab4a52949cab17bc07807b7b9545
PDF Text
Text
Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering
June 6 2018
1
Nathan Neitering: Uh, this is Nathan Neitering, and I’m here today with Nancy Crean at the old
schoolhouse in Douglas, Michigan on June 6th 2018. This oral history is being collected as part of the
Stories of Summer Project, which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for the
Humanities Common Heritage Program. Thank you for taking the time to speak with me today, I’m
interested to learn more about your family history and your experiences of summer in the Saugatuck
Douglas area. First, can you please tell me your full name and spell it?
Nancy Crean: It’s Nancy Crean, C R E A N.
NN: Okay, and your maiden name?
NC: Pandel. P A N D E L.
NN: Thank you very much, um, so first, tell me about where you grew up?
NC: I grew up in Chicago. On the south side, very close to um, South Shore Country Club, Museum of
Science and Industry, so I spent part of my summer at the beach in Chicago, and the other part of my
summer here in Saugatuck at the Oval Beach.
NN: Awesome, always on the beach.
NC: Always on the beach.
NN: [Laughs] Um, and did you have any siblings growing up?
NC: I have one brother, and his name is Bob Pandel and he did basically the same thing as me other than
he played sports.
NN: Okay, alright. Um, do you remember the first time you came to Saugatuck?
NC: Probably not because I was probably about 3 months old.
NN: Okay.
NC: [Laughs]
NN: Then….
NC: …First memory?
NN: Yeah, first memory.
NC: First memories would probably be about 6 years old.
NN: Okay.
�Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering
June 6 2018
2
NC: So I came up with my family and we would come up every weekend starting in April all the way
through November and we would spend two full weeks here during the summer when my, my dad had
vacation, and we had a friend across the street, Mark Francis and the three of us would just play ball,
we’d ride bikes, we’d play in the golf course when we weren’t supposed to. We would steal the golf balls
off the fourth hole and watch the people look for them. Um, we, as we got older we met other people in
town and we would do things with them, mainly playing like baseball or whatever. And later on going
into town and hanging out in the middle of the street when they would close down the town, with the
college kids.
NN: Um, so you said you have a brother do you have any children?
NC: I have two children, two girls, Jennifer and Kelly and they both came here from the time they were
born also. We spent more time here because I was a teacher, so I was able to come you know for weeks
at a time during the summer, so they were able to enjoy a lot more things than we were. And I have
grandchildren who also do the same thing and they were very lucky because they could spend just as
much time, but they got to enjoy you know the arts and the swimming and the sailing and everything
else, you know because we did more things then.
NN: Right, wonderful. Okay, so take me back, were step back for a second.
NC: Okay.
NN: Tell me how and when did you family first come to the Saugatuck area?
NC: Um, my father had hay fever and so they used to go up to Petoskey for some reason it was better up
there and they would stop here in Saugatuck on the way because they had some relatives here and
eventually my grandfather and grandmother decided to buy a home here in 1930 and they settled here
and they did have friends and relatives that lived here [pause] for the summers. So I think that’s what
brought them here.
NN: Wonderful, and what were your grandparents names?
NC: It was Frieda and Rudolph Pandel.
NN: Okay, and your parents’ names?
NC: My parents’ names were Ernest and Ada Pandel.
NN: Very good, thank you. Um, and so it sounds like, it kind of became a family tradition to come to
Saugatuck.
NC: Very much so.
NN: Yes.
�Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering
June 6 2018
3
NC: Very much so, everybody loves it here and we have absolutely no intentions of selling the house or
anything. The kids don’t want to divide it up, they want to keep coming here as we are now.
NN: Wonderful, and what is the address of the house?
NC: The address is 565 Campbell Road.
NN: Okay, and can you describe it a little bit, as it currently is?
NC: Yes, it is a small two bedroom, um it has a living room, a kitchen, one bathroom, and a screened in
porch and a basement.
NN: Okay, and what sort of condition is it in?
NC: Um, it’s in very good condition, we maintained it over the years, we still have the original windows
the original plumbing or, um, like sinks and bathtub, um, it’s the original wood floors, original wood, um,
woodwork and it’s still the same color it was, when they bought it.
NN: SO it truly feels like stepping back in time.
NC: It is, I have, I have a picture from my when my grandfather bought it was, its dark brown like stain
with white. Exact same. Hasn’t changed.
NN: That’s wonderful, that’s really cool. Um, tell me a little bit more about some of your other
experiences as a child coming to Saugatuck.
[00:05:06]
NC: Okay! Um we spent when we were here we spent almost every day at the beach.
NN: Okay.
NC: Or, or going through the woods back behind um, on Campbell road if you go north, it’s the woods
between Campbell and Perryman and we would explore through there and we’d swing on the vines and
whatever, um, we did not have a boat so we did not do any boating when I was a child, um, we swam all
the time we went to town, rode bikes, all of those things. My parents didn’t have a lot of money so they
didn’t enroll us in sailing or anything like that so it as basically, being kids. You know, and having the
freedom to come and go as you pleased, you know and there were no curfews you know, your parents
didn’t worry about you, you could, you know, be out, you know doing things that, well you should be
doing.
NN: That kids do right?
NC: Exactly.
�Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering
June 6 2018
4
NN: Yes.
NC: Climbing trees, you know things we wouldn’t be doing in Chicago, because we did have access to
that.
NN: There wasn’t a space, right? Were you mostly spending this time with your family or did you have
friends here as well?
NC: We had, just the boy across the street and I had one girl that moved in.
NN: Okay.
NC: And then we hung around some the guys in town. So I didn’t meet a lot of girls until I was older. So
it was mostly boys.
NN: Mostly boys.
NC: Which worked out well.
NN: That’s okay.
[Both laugh]
NN: Um, so even when you were fairly young would your family ever sort of pack and head into
Saugatuck, the village center or did you stay out close to the lake?
NC: No, well during the day we were at the beach but in the evenings we would go into town and walk
around and you know, visit with people that were selling everything, and we knew Mr. Francis who
owned a grocery store.
NN: Okay.
NC: They’re the ones who lived across the street from us, so we would go into his store to do grocery
shopping.
NN: Okay, alright.
NC: That little teeny store.
NN: Do you recall any of the other restaurants or businesses that you would, frequent?
NC: You know what, um, the only restaurant that we used to go was, it was a hamburger place, I’m
trying to, I can’t think of the name. It was behind where the, its M and M’s now….
NN: Oh, right.
�Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering
June 6 2018
5
NC: …but it used to be, I can’t remember what the name of it was.
NN: Uh, tasty treat or something? At one point?
NC: Yeah, that was, that was tasty freeze but right behind it where the breakfast place is now.
NN: Mhm.
NC: There was a restaurant that had hamburgers and I can’t remember the name of it.
NN: That was on Blue Star, right?
NC: It was on Blue Star but it was behind the tasty freeze. So I think, its, I, I don’t know what the name of
it is now. I don’t think its WayPoint.
NN: No, um, okay. When you, do you recall, um, uh, being at the house and you know, what kind of food
would you guys eat? .
NC: Um, my mother, my mother would make dinner before we went to the beach. She would prepare
everything so when we came home from the beach, and we took our baths and got organized she would
serve dinner within 20 minutes of the time we got home.
NN: Wow, okay.
NC: Yes, so she made homemade dinners every single day. I know she, she was quite the woman.
[Whispers] I don’t do that.
NN: But uh, apparently cooking was something she was passionate about?
NC: She, well, well, we had to eat.
NN: Well yes, and people get hungry.
NC: And she did not mind cooking you know so, it was very hot because it’s a small cottage but, it
worked.
NN: Okay, um, [pause] so as you grew older into your teenage years, do you have specific memories of
coming up….
NC: …I do….
NN: …that’s a little bit different than a young childhood’s experience.
NC: I do, I brought up friends when I was a teenager so then we had, were able to go to the beach by
ourselves and there was lots and lots of college kids and teenagers and they, you’d sit together so you
�Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering
June 6 2018
6
didn’t have to sit with your parents which was really nice, and I went to the, the um, festival, the rock
festival that they had here.
NN: Okay.
NC: I attended that. That was really interesting.
NN: Do you remember which year that was?
NC: It was in like ’69? Maybe?
NN: Okay, there were a couple of them in the late 60’s.
NC: Yeah I believe it was in ’69.
NN: Okay.
NC: Alice Cooper was there.
NN: Okay.
NC: So, I believed it was around ’68 or ’69, right around the time Woodstock happened.
NN: Yep.
NC: So, it was like a mini one, but my parents allowed us to go and….
NN: …So they knew that’s where you were going?
NC: They knew we, they dropped us off!.
NN: Alright!.
NC: They dropped us off and then we hitched a ride. We actually hitchhiked back to the house and my
parents never even asked a question. That’s what I said they, you know, it was a different world back
then. You know, and when I was probably in my early teens, um, that’s when all the college kids would
be there and they’d gather around where Marro’s is and Coral Gables and they’d have to close down the
town because there was so many of them, and they’d just kind of hang out, and that’s what we did.
There was also a dance, it wasn’t the Pavilion it’s where um, Mermaid is now, that used to be a big
warehouse at one time, and they had dances, teen dances there. That you could go to, and we did that
in the evenings on like Saturday nights, which was a lot of fun, so….
[00:10:10]
NN: About what year would that have been?
�Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering
June 6 2018
7
NC: That probably was somewhere between ’67 and ’69.
NN: Okay.
NC: …because that would’ve been, let’s see, let me think. Yes, it would’ve been the summer of ’67 or
’68, because I remember the friends I brought up with me.
NN: They were all friends from back in Chicago?
NC: They were, yes, and they loved it here. They still come up with me by the way.
NN: Good! That’s excellent! Uh, so what else do you remember about the concert? The rock concert?
NC: The concert!.
NN: Yes!.
NC: It was very interesting, there were a lot of drugs, lot of smoking, um, people were just enjoying
themselves, lots of dancing, music was great! You know, it was a beautiful day, didn’t rain so it was very
very nice….
NN: That makes a big difference when you were in a field, right?
NC: Yes, yes. It was, it was, I had never been to something like that, I went to an all-girl catholic school
back home, and so we were very conservative and it was like, very interesting to me, it opened my eyes
to a lot of different things because they were doing many things that I had never seen before. So, kind of
introduced me to what college would be like.
NN: Yes [Both laugh] Do you recall any of the other performers that?
NC: I don’t. Alice Cooper sticks out in my mind because he became famous, so.
NN: Right. He was there.
NC: Right. In fact, my cousin who lived in Fennville, he was one of his road managers. Alice Cooper. Yes.
Which is very cool.
NN: Oh! That’s fascinating.
NC: Yes! Very cool.
NN: I bet I would have some good questions for him too.
NC: He passed away [laughs] He just passed away two years ago, I know, you missed it!.
�Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering
June 6 2018
8
NN: Um, yeah, we’ve heard, we’ve heard several people, you know have memories of that concert
depending on their, perhaps, level of sobriety.
NC: Right, I was going to say depending on their age. Because I was probably about 14, 15 years old so I
was a lot younger.
NN: You were younger then.
NC: Yes, yes.
NN: Okay interesting, and even in a conservative Catholic household….
NC: Yes!.
NN: …it was no questions asked over the concert?
NC: Nope, nope. I don’t think they had a clue, what they were dropping us off at. To be perfectly honest,
and when we came home we really didn’t tell them anything about it, and they passed away a few years
ago and they still didn’t know. [Laughs] Life is good.
NN: Yes, that’s great.
NC: So but, no, it was great, it was very very interesting being there, it was, it was something different
you know and it was nice that you could come to a small town like this and have something like that….
NN: Right….
NC: …and Saugatuck has always been a place where you can come have things that were different, then
many other places and I think that’s one of the draws here.
NN: Yep.
NC: I really do.
NN: I agree, I think a lot of other people would agree with you as well. Um, did you ever during the
summers as a teen or young adult did you ever, sounds like you always came here for vacation, did you
ever, ever have a summer job here?
NC: I didn’t, no, I had summer jobs back home.
NN: Okay, that’s fine. Um, do you recall then, as, as you were getting older were there other restaurants
or businesses or places you used to hang out?
NC: Uh, no. No, we basically stayed close to home.
�Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering
June 6 2018
9
NN: Stayed close, and on the beach right?
NC: Right, on the beach or in town just enjoying, you know, the crowds basically.
NN: Did you ever have a reason to come to Douglas?
NC: Yes, there as a really good bakery here. [Laughs]
NN: Oh! Okay!.
NC: There was a really good bakery, it was next to where the catholic school used to be.
NN: Okay, down Center Street, yep!.
NC: Yes, yes they made really good butter crust bread. So, and we would, there would be baseball
games that you could watch too, in the park….
NN: [speaking over NC] At the Pet…what is now Beery Field.
NC: Exactly.
NN: Okay, okay.
NC: So but other than that I don’t think we did, we’d walk a lot my brother and I rode bikes everywhere,
so we, we rode all the way through, down the hills and around Saugatuck and Douglas so.
NN: Do you recall, especially if you were on a bike, um, ever encountering motorcycle groups?
NC: Oh gosh, yes! .
NN: Okay! .
NC: Oh yeah, that’s, well the town went through many different changes, it was the motorcycles came in
and then, um, when the gay population first starting came, coming in it was, oh, trying to think of the
name of the place right as you’re going into Saugatuck, it’s called the blue something-or-other.
NN: Blue Tempo.
NC: Yes! Yes. There, there was a lot of different changes going on, things, again, that you never saw
before. You know, it was very very interesting, and um, so the town went through different changes and
because when I was a child, it was very family oriented and then it, it went to the college kids and then it
went to I believe the motorcycle gangs were first, and then I believe the gay population started to come
in and you know, bring their culture because back then it was very different because they were um,
trying to, um, how could I say this, they were a little more flamboyant. You know where as now,
everybody’s the same, which is the way it should’ve been a long time ago, but it was you know, different
�Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering
June 6 2018
10
culture. So you got that, and then it went back to the family, which is really interesting, it’s a full circle,
because now, you know if you go to the beach, there was, as you sure you, you might, I don’t know if
you remember this, where there was the gay part of the beach where you had to pay and there was
nudity and everything else down there, and now, I mean it’s all families, you know and everybody just
intermingles and gets along and its, it’s awesome, you know? And that’s the thing I think is so cool about
Saugatuck because it’s such a great area for everything, and everyone!.
[00:15:40]
NN: Yes.
NC: So. But yes, there’s been many different changes. Motorcycle gangs were interesting. You’d see like,
you know, a hundred of them parked in front of the Sand Bar, you know, because that was what their
favorite bar, you know and it was loud you know and it didn’t scare people away but I don’t think
families came as much.
NN: Well, and I guess if the motorcycle groups, gangs, had, had their space everybody else had space
around them.
NC: Exactly.
NN: Okay, alright.
NC: Exactly, exactly. You know it didn’t stop our family from coming into town, to walk around and
everything we, we continued doing everything the same our entire life. So….
NN: Do you ever recall when the motorcycle gangs would roll in or roll out of town?
NC: Oh, the sound?
NN: Yes.
NC: Oh my gosh, yes. It was, it was noisy it was kind of like the cigarette boats now [laughs] when you
hear them going, but it was much closer. Yes, because they had like the big hogs, I mean they had they
huge motorcycles you know, and they were, they were large men you know, they had, looked scary and
in sure they weren’t scary, they were just normal people that just wanted to do their thing, but, you
know it’s just different then what we had before.
NN: Right, and very noticeable.
NC: Exactly. Exactly, because I’m 65, no, I’m 66 [laughs] .
NN: You look great.
�Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering
June 6 2018
11
NC: Well thank you, so, so I’ve experienced a lot of different changes. I think more, more changes during
my lifetime than any other time, in Saugatuck, you know, because, I think when my grandparents
bought it, I think it was very much a resort town, like, um, my mother-in-law when she was 17, took a
bus here and stayed at one of the hotels because she had heard that it was a fun place to go.
NN: How old do you think she was when she did that?
NC: She was 17.
NN: Okay, okay.
NC: She is now, she lives with us, she’s 92.
NN: Wow.
[Both laugh]
NN: Alright, so, this is all fascinating. Um, you know as you kind of already pointed out, the, the gay
culture….
NC: Yes….
NN: …kind of, kind of grew or became more um, less underground….
NC: ..Right!.
NN: …perhaps? So, when do you, do you recall when you first kind of became aware of that?
NC: Um, I was probably, I believe I was married so it had to be in the ‘70s maybe late ‘70s because I
think my children were already born and I, I, remember one incident, it was the Fourth of July and there
was um, probably 4 or 5 gay men out in front of the, where the washroom is in Saugatuck and one of
them was dressed in a wedding gown and it just and it was just really cute, and they were, they were
adorable you know but it was just so bizarre and my kids were like, ‘what’s going on?’ You know? You
know, and we were always very open, we explained to them everything, they were, they were very
accepting about everything because you know we had friends who were gay and everything so it was no
big deal. But, it was so flamboyant, I mean it was just like something that was like in your face, you know
but it, it changed. I mean it, it, which is wonderful you know because now I think our gay population is,
what about 40%? You know, which is wonderful and, like I said many of my friends are gay, I had gay
friends when I was young too though, so.
NN: So um, when you just, when you say that it was flamboyant, was it mostly in their style of dress?
Such as wedding gowns?
�Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering
June 6 2018
12
NC: It was in their style of dress, it was in the way they acted, um, they were very physically showing
that they were gay, you know they had no qualms about it which, which they should’ve been able to
because heterosexual people are, but it wasn’t accepted back then.
NN: Right.
NC: That, that was the difference, so they were making um, a statement you know which I think was
probably a really good thing because people got, like anything else, anything that’s different, once you
get used to seeing it, it’s no longer different. It’s every day, you know? And like you said when they
came out of the closet, which should’ve happened a long time ago, I think people just became very
accepting of everything, so, which is really nice. But I think that was their way, I think it’s, the way with
anything that’s different, you have you to kind of put it in people’s faces and put it out there so they see
it, and they recognize it, and then from there you kind of just tame it down to normalcy.
NN: Yeah, you mentioned the Blue Tempo as a, as a destination.
[00:20:02]
NC: Yes.
NN: What else do you recall about the Blue Tempo? Did you ever go there?
NC: I did not.
NN: Did you know people who went there?
NC: I did know people who went there, but I did not, so and I remember also um, what’s the name of
the resort? The hotel, right on Blue Star?
NN: Uh, The Dunes?
NC: The Dunes, yes, I knew many people, my daughter [Laughs] my daughter is 40, she’s 41 now but
when she was younger she hung around with some people that were gay and she went there, and it was
a really interesting story when she came home that night. I was like ‘Really?’ but it was, you know it was,
like it’s just a different way of life.
NN: And it’s a safe space for them.
NC: It’s a very safe space, and I don’t, I don’t hear about The Dunes anymore so I don’t know whether or
not it’s, it’s still a destination, I’m not sure, because you know everything is acceptable now. You know,
you can go to any hotel it doesn’t matter, you know but I don’t know if they still, do they still have their
bar and dancing, and?
NN: Yeah, it still very much a destination for that community.
�Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering
June 6 2018
13
NC: It is. I did have a friend who, who made a reservation there that was not gay [Laughs]
NN: Okay, that may have been a bit of a surprise.
NC: Their, their stories were hysterical.
NN: Yes, but everybody’s perspective is different….
NC: Exactly….
NN: …and it can be very eye opening….
NC: …It is!.
NN: In one of the other interviews, as part of this project was with a couple of owners from The Dunes
Resort….
NC: …Yes.
NN: and, and that’s part of why this whole project is so valuable, is to get all these different points of
view….
NC…Right….
NN: …Of the same time period….
NC: Right, right….
NN: to really stich that….
NC: [speaking over NN] Now are the same owners, do they still own that?
NN: I believe they sold it recently. Within the last….
NC: …well I know they were older….
NN: Yeah, yeah, but they’re still around.
NC: I know.
NN: Which is good.
NC: I didn’t know if they still owned it or not.
NN: Yes. Um, so [pause] you mentioned the different phases kind of….
�Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering
June 6 2018
14
NC: …Yes.
NN: In the community. The college students came first. Do you recall anything else about when the town
would be shut down for college weekends?
NC: I mean they, they had to shut it down because you literally could not move. You could not move
through town, you couldn’t bring a car through because there was so many kids in the streets. You
know, it was, it was just really fun and I mean, I was young, I was probably 15 or 16 years old and they
were, you know 18 to 21, you know so they were a lot crazier then I was then but I loved it, it was so
much fun. Just being there, and my parents again, would drop me off you know at the corner, and then
we would walk home so we would have to walk down Blue Star and go all the way around to the other
side because the Ferry would stop running, at 9 or 10 o’clock so that didn’t help us.
NN: Right, so these were late nights?
NC: They were late nights, yes and you didn’t worry about walking around. You know and even with my
own children, they had a lot more freedom here than they did back home. Growing up in, they grew up
in the suburbs of Chicago, but you know we would allow them to stay out, they’d be out till 2 in the
morning with their friends you know, they’d be down at Douglas beach, climbing over the fence you
know to go down there, you just didn’t worry.
NN: Yeah.
NC: You know, and nothing ever happened you know, luckily. So, we were very very lucky. I don’t know
if we’d do that with the grandkids now [laughs] It’s a little different now, you know because you hear
different things that are going on, so, but that’s just the world.
NN: Yeah, yep. Do you recall, even though you were younger do you remember any of the destinations,
or that, that these college students would frequent? Or was, were they just in the street.
NC: It was, they were in the street. They were, it was right by Coral Gables. That whole area like Marro’s,
Coral Gables, um, whatever that store is Good Goods or whatever it is, I always call it Home Goods since
we use that name now. But that whole area, those streets were just filled with kids you know so, and
there weren’t many adults around, very few. There were police, they brought in the state police, they
had brown uniforms on I believe, or whatever color they were. So, they were walking around to take
care of the people that were really intoxicated or on drugs, because drugs were big thing back then.
NN: They were?
NC: Huge thing. Right. That was, that was, very, it was just in the ‘60’s you know, so you got the flower
children.
NN: Right.
�Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering
June 6 2018
15
NC: And the college kids were very out spoken back then.
NN: Yeah, well that was….
NC: [Over NN] Kent State, Vietnam….
NN: …It was a, uh, sort of a tenacious time, right?
NC: It was! It really really was you know and like I said, being from my Catholic school I was not involved
in a lot of that so, when I came here it kind of opened my eyes to a lot of different things that I could
see.
NN: Okay. Hmm, which, what was the name of the school that you went to?
NC: I went to Aquinas….
NN: …Okay.
NC: Which was right in Chicago.
NN: Okay, alright. Um, [pause] did, thinking again just sort of real quick about the crazy college times,
did it seem like the Police were in control of the situation?
[00:25:02]
NC: Oh god no!.
NN: Definitely not?
NC: Oh god no, no [laughs] No there was no control, they were just crazy. I mean it was just liquor out
on the streets and people running around, yelling, and just having a great time. You know what, but I
think what the Police did was they contained it to the area.
NN: Oh, okay.
NC: So it didn’t move outwards into the residential area.
NN: Kind of keeping an informal perimeter sort of thing.
NC: Right, right. Do you know because they didn’t want it to go into the residential area where the
families were living?
NN: Right.
NC: So, but it was all in the downtown area.
�Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering
June 6 2018
16
NN: Okay, alright, um, so, your family still comes….
NC: …we do….
NN: To Saugatuck, yes?
NC: Yes.
NN: How many people are in the family now? .
NC: Okay, um, in my family let’s see there my husband and I, you have my mother in law, two girls, two
guys, 1, 2, 3, there’s 11 of us and my brother has 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, he has 13. So, and we
share the cottage, I get a week, he gets a week.
NN: Okay. Alright, because I was going to say if there is only 2 bedrooms, that’s a lot of people.
NC: Right, right. We, we tag team and even with my family, when they come up we kind of alternate.
Like my husband will not stay if all the kids are coming up, he and my mother in law go home because
then it’s a little too chaotic for my mother in law at 92.
NN: Absolutely.
NC: You know but, but I will be there with like the grandkids and everything. My oldest grandson is 21 so
he works and is in college so he doesn’t come up as much. But he’s the one that spent most of his life up
here in the summers.
NN: Okay, alright.
NC: He spent his, almost the entire summer here with me, and he was the one that was involved with
like, he went to art colony took classes, he went did sailing, he did swimming here, he had lots of friends
around here, local friends so, his, his life during the summer really revolved around Saugatuck, so….
NN: That’s great.
NC: It is, it’s really nice and it was nice that I could be there to be with him the whole time.
NN: Sure, can you tell me just a little bit about your mother in law, at age 92 she’s been coming here for
quite a while. Okay.
NC: She has! She loves the beach too, she’s a beach person. She grew up in Hyde Park….
NN: Okay.
NC: In Chicago and so she also spent her summers on the beach there.
�Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering
June 6 2018
17
NN: Okay.
NC: So, and we have a home now in Florida too, so we, we winter and we spend time on the beach
there. Hence, hence the wrinkles! [Laughs]
NN: Good looking wrinkles.
NC: As it, that’s what happens when you’re in the sun too much.
NN: What is her name?
NC: Her name is Imogene and her last name is Craen. .
NN: Okay, same spelling.
NC: Yes, exactly. Yes and she’s, she’s been with us for um, she’s been living with us for 4 years.
NN: Okay, alright.
NC: So, but she came up here with my mom and dad a lot, after her husband passed away. So she spent
a lot of time up here too with my parents.
NN: Wonderful!.
NC: Yeah, yeah. I mean life is good.
NN: That’s great, that’s great. Um, so I guess looking a little long range now into the future, just thinking
about it. You know, what are your hopes for the future of Saugatuck and this area? .
NC: You know what, I like the direction it’s gone in. It’s, it’s very very nice, I don’t like the Douglas road
now, but [Laughs] other, other than that, I really have no complaints I think that its, it’s become a very
um, I love the arts center, um, I love the plays, there’s so much culture here that you can utilize. It’s
almost like a mini Chicago. I feel like when I come here, you know, you can be exposed to almost
anything and the people that have moved in, their homes are absolutely gorgeous I mean you drive
anywhere throughout the town and everything is kept up beautifully. You know, so I am hoping that it
will continue on that way, we won’t have our drips like we did in the past you know where things have
fallen down a little bit, you know and I’m hoping that we’re going to continue on this path because it’s
really nice, and it’s a great place people come here and they want to move here. You know, I don’t know
how many of my friends have actually become residents here. So, I will never become a resident here
because I, I like Florida and you know, whatever, and I do like Chicago my family’s back there so I will
never live here full time but I spend a lot of time.
NN: But summer.
NC: Right, and and the weeks that I’m not here because my brothers here, I go to Renee’s house.
�Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering
June 6 2018
18
NN: Okay. [Both Laugh] and, and just for the record, who is Renee? What’s the relation?
NC: Renee Zita, and that whole family, as you know is just everywhere so they’re wonderful people and
they are my, like my sisters.
NN: Okay, alright, and what is your actual relation to Renee?
NC: As a friend.
NN: As a friend, okay.
NC: Yes, I, I met her mother, Ann when were very young, and in our, she was in her 50’s and I was in my
40’s, I think that’s very young, I’m sure you don’t. But, but we were best friends for many many years
and, then I became friends with all the girls, and her brothers.
NN: Okay, okay, and that was Ann Rinaldi?
NC: Ann Rinaldi, yes.
NN: Alright, okay, um, so keep in mind that….
[00:30:01]
NC: Yes.
NN: That this interview will be saved for a very long time.
NC: Okay!.
NN: Maybe accessed long into the future, so if someone were to listen to this, 40 or 50 years from now
what would you like them to know? What else would you like them to know about the community, or
about your family or?
NC: That there’s no better place, and its home, and I was telling the girl that took my picture, I said you
know when you come in from Chicago when you’re not a full time resident and you pass that Michigan
sign on the expressway you kind of go ‘Ah’, its home, you know, and it is cause you come here and you
basically forget anything that is going on in your life. You just, it’s really a nice place to be, and I can see
why people want to live here because of that, because it is so nice and the community is wonderful, so,
great people.
NN: Good, um, this just prompted one other real quick question, uh, even thinking back to when you
were, when you were very young, um, and coming here, did you always drive? Did your family always
drive?
�Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering
June 6 2018
19
NC: We did always drive, yes, no air conditioning. My father drove here, when he was a little boy when
they bought the cottage.
NN: Okay.
NC: They um, I don’t know what kind of cars they drove back then in the 1930’s but I remember him
saying they used to have bring a lot of tires because there was a lot of um, gravel roads that they would
have to travel and it would blow out the tires so they would have to change tires quite often, so but they
had a, they had a car, my father had a car form the time he was born, so.
NN: Okay, alright, because I know the Blue Star Highway was not completed until the late ‘30s.
NC: Right.
NN: And so, before that there were a lot of zigs and zags.
NC: Yes.
NN: Kind of to come up along the lakeshore.
NC: Now when I, when I came up we took um, we took like 1220 and then we went to Red, Red Arrow or
31 whatever it was, there was no expressway.
NN: Right.
NC: So, it did take us from Chicago, took about 3 and half hours.
NN: Okay, to make that trip.
NC: Right.
NN: Before the freeway.
NC: Right, and no air conditioning. [Both laugh]
NN: At least you were close to the lake!.
NC: And luck, luckily there only, you know only two of us in the back seat you know with the line down
the middle of the thing so you didn’t touch each other.
NN: Of course, of course. Dou remember what kind of car that was?
NC: It was um, the first one was a Mercury, like a big old blue Mercury in 1953.
NN: Okay.
�Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering
June 6 2018
20
NC: And from there we went to a Comet in 1962, you know, a little cars and after that we got the
Chavelles.
NN: Okay.
NC: That’s when I could drive.
NN: Alright.
NC: I actually learned how to drive here too.
NN: Oh, really?
NC: I did! On Wiley, my father, Wiley and what’s the street where Burger King is? 64th?
NN: 64th.
NC: Okay, when I was really little my dad would put me on his lap on 64th when we’d go to Holland and
he’d let us steer.
NN: Okay.
NC: When I got to be about 10, he took us to Wiley between um, Blue Star and the lake and he would let
us drive, the car. [Both laugh] Up and down Wiley. You know, and then he taught us how to do a threepoint turn where the Miro is, you know that’s, so I learned how to drive here.
NN: That’s fascinating.
NC: I know! Yeah, so by the time I was 16 I was a, you know Hell on wheels. [Both laugh]
NN: No problem. That’s great!.
NC: So it’s been a great place for me.
NN: Okay, couple more questions. Were almost done.
NC: Yes! I’m not in any hurry!.
NN: Okay, um, again thinking that you know, who knows who might listen to this in the future.
NC: Right.
NN: Do you have any thoughts or advise for a younger person who might listen to this tape?
NC: Oh, come here as much as often.
�Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering
June 6 2018
21
NN: Okay.
NC: I mean, all the time, seriously because it just really refreshes you and makes you feel fantastic.
NN: Very good.
NC: Buy something here. [Laughs] .
NN: Yes, yes.
NC: When the prices are down. [Laughs]
NN: From time to time, hopefully that happens.
NC: Yeah well not now. [Laughs]
NN: Not at the moment, no. Um, and I think the last question is just, is there any other stories you can
think of, any other….
NC: I don’t think so, not that, not that I know right now.
NN: Okay.
NC: If I think of anything I can send them to you.
NN: Please, you know where to find us.
NC: But at this, at this point I can’t. I will talk to my brother and see if he as anything else.
NN: Okay. The other thing, just so you know, as part of this whole project is that, um, we are also
scanning photographs and that sort of thing, so that, and you can take them back….
NC: Right.
NN: …were not keeping them. But this way we sort of have digital records and images that match the
stories that we’re hearing.
NC: Okay.
NN: So um, if you come across any….
NC: I will look.
NN: Scrapbooks, anything.
NC: I have lots and lots of photos in my closet.
�Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering
June 6 2018
22
NN: Okay. Alright, well Nancy thank you so much for sharing your time and your memories with me, this
concludes our interview.
NC: Thank you.
[00:34:28]
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1910s-2010s
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Various
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Michigan, Lake
Allegan County (Mich.)
Beaches
Sand dunes
Outdoor recreation
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Saugatuck-Douglas History Center
Identifier
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Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
Format
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image/jpeg
application/pdf
Type
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Image
Text
Language
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English
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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DC-07_SD-CreanN-20180606
Creator
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Crean, Nancy
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-06
Title
A name given to the resource
Nancy Crean (Audio interview and transcript), 2018
Description
An account of the resource
Nancy Crean's family bought a home in Saugatuck, Michigan in 1930. Throughout her childhood she remembers coming from Chicago to Saugatuck every weekend from April to November. She and her family still spend weekends in the family home throughout the summer. In her interview, Nancy remembers a massive influx of college aged people on holiday weekends in the 1960s. Nancy also recounts attending the 1968 music festival that was held in Douglas.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Neitering, Nathan (Interviewer)
Van Orsdol, Mollie (Transcriber)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Allegan County (Mich.)
Outdoor recreation
Motorcycle gangs
Gay culture
College students
Oral history
Audio recordings
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University
Relation
A related resource
Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Sound
Text
Format
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
Language
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eng
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/028a52801362e0b2657db835e0160a74.mp4
2224af2cf554c623380d5b26e1caa198
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d086f2594e65749e6afa3fcee87263cb.pdf
d5a3fdfcad1a9e9706baa49fa6a3debc
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
DON CRIPPS
126th Infantry Regiment, Red Arrow Division
WWII
Born: Battle Creek, Michigan
Resides: Battle Creek
Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project,
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, August 5, 2011
Interviewer: Mr. Cripps, can you start by telling us a little bit about yourself. For
instance, where were you born?
I was born in Battle Creek, Michigan and when I was nine years old we moved to the
little town of Athens. That was during the depression and it was a little cheaper to live.
My father worked at what they call the Federal Center now, it was the Battle Creek
Sanitarium and my whole family worked at the Battle Creek Sanitarium and I worked
different jobs throughout my lifetime too. I met a lot of famous people, Mrs. Roosevelt
and lots of people. I had good contacts and when I—I always wanted to be a doctor, but
there was no money to be had and I didn’t know what I was going to do, so—I was an
athlete in school, football, I got letters in football, basketball and track. 1:05
Interviewer: When did you graduate from high school?
1939, in Athens, Michigan and then I want back to Battle Creek and I worked in the
sanitarium there. For jobs, I worked at the main desk, I bell hopped and I worked on the
sanitarium farm. I was in charge of the orchard one year and I had a number of different
jobs. I knew that wasn’t what I wanted to do, but I stayed even though they were going
into bankruptcy. The sanitarium was going broke and I lived at 1102, the tallest building
there, for one year. I had my friend that I went to school with in Athens, we were always
good friends, but I’ll be darned if he didn’t have a job at the sanitarium also. 1:58 The
1
�historian wants to interview me now because I can tell them things about the sanitarium
that they don’t even have a record of. I’ve been to places they don’t even know were
there. He is going to do it soon, but I can’t think of his name anyway. My friend said,
“were going to be drafted”, and I couldn’t go on to college, so my dad knew a retired
professor at the University of Michigan, but he also stayed at the sanitarium. He said, “if
you like, I’ll start him on his career now until he gets the money or whatever he’s going
to do”, so I started there and for that whole year I studied at the University of Michigan.
2:44 I took two subjects and still worked. When my friend said, “we might as well join
the National Guard or we’ll be drafted”, so we—I joined with him knowing that I was
going to be drafted. I was only in the guard for about a month and a half. We trained in
Kalamazoo on the streets.
Interviewer: When you were training in Kalamazoo, did you have weapons or
anything like that?
We went right back to WWI, I had the leggings that you—the windup leggings you
know.
Interviewer: The WWI uniforms?
WWI, .03 rifles, which I had never seen an 03 rifle until we got down in Louisiana and
we had campaign hats, the old WWI helmets, everything was WWI equipment.3:38 We
marched up and down the streets and things like that and the fellow that was in there at
that time , Captain Walker, I guess he was a WWI veteran and we had a 1st. Lieutenant,
Fitzgerald, he was a WWI veteran, and then we had a 2nd Lieutenant and that was the
only officers we had, and the 2nd Lieutenant’s name was Bush. He was a First Sergeant
and he went up through the ranks and to the officer’s school with the guards. 4:16 Most
2
�of these young guys that came in were around twenty years old and in that area because
there was no work anyway. They trained in [Camp] McCoy, Wisconsin and the next year
it would be at [Camp] Grayling, Michigan, and to them it was like a big vacation anyway.
We got twenty-one dollars per month at that time and then they federalized us, and we
got on a train to Camp Beauregard, Louisiana. 4:56
Interviewer: So, you were federalized on October 15th 1940?
Yes, 1940
Interviewer: They load you on a train to Camp Beauregard.
The whole group is the history of the men-- the dentist is taking care of was the whole
group that was on that train. [this sentence is probably garbled, so check it against the
original] There were no draftees yet.
Interviewer: About how many men were in your company initially?
There were supposed to be two hundred, but there were seventy or something like that.
There wasn’t a full train. 5:22 We went to Camp Beauregard, which was used in WWI
as a training camp and there is nothing, it is just a monument, we had no place to go. We
were going to go there and they were going to build us a camp, Camp Livingston, was
going to be built and it had already been started. We trained in a tent there and had a real
rugged time, even the cook had a homemade stove he had to use and we marched out
each day with a band and trained. That was like our boot camp. 6:04 That’s how I can
describe it. We were there about six months I think, I don’t know for sure the exact time.
Camp Livingston, which is near Alexandria, Louisiana, that’s the nearest town. We
moved in and that was a luxury compared to what we were used to being in.
Interviewer: What did the training itself consist of? What were you doing?
3
�Because they had the, well they didn’t know about the Japanese at first. 6:45 I was on
leave on Pearl Harbor day in New Orleans and the loud speaker came on and said for all
the soldiers to get back to camp right now. That was Pearl Harbor and then they decided
they were going to train us for general warfare and the never had anyone train for general
warfare. 7:08
Interviewer: Were they giving you any jungle training in Louisiana or did that wait
until Australia?
No, actually we had very little jungle training anyplace. We went into action before we
should have gone. Anyway, we had no equipment, no machine guns everything was
simulated. In fact, one time we marched all over the Louisiana swamp and that was like
where we were going to fight. We just had the old 03 rifles and gradually they gave us
the equipment they had now and while we were down there we finally got the Garand
rifle, and we used that going right into the war zone. 8:00 Then I—the conditions
around there were still pretty much—the blacks were still--they had drinking fountains
for blacks and they rode in the back of the buses and it was a new world opened up. That
was more or less the training there.
Interviewer: Tell me just a little bit more about the jobs there; what physically did
you have to do? Were you marching? Were you shooting?
We had some target practice, but not very much. Each day we marched out behind a
band out to about three or four miles out in the country, at Camp Livingston and Camp
Beauregard both, we did the same thing, marched behind the band. We had our flag with
our unit on it and in fact, we still got that flag, it’s in the museum in Kalamazoo now.
9:02 They probably told you about that. General Harding was our general at that time
4
�and then all of a sudden they decided we were going to go to Europe. It was pretty rough
training if you’re not used to anything like that, so we went to Camp Devens, in
Massachusetts and we trained there for a while. Of course, there we had barracks and we
weren’t used to that sort of thing. I guess MacArthur wanted Harding’s division, so they
shipped us clear across the United States and we didn’t know we were going to Australia.
We went to San Francisco.
Interviewer: What was that train ride like? 9:58
It was—in fact, it was kind of fun and most of us have never done anything like that. We
went on the train and we got to San Francisco and they put us in the Cow Palace. I don’t
know if you—that’s where they held animal shows and stuff like that. It was rather new
at that time and we all stayed in the stalls of the animals. I happened to have one
particular assignment and I was a corporal by that time and a corporal was in charge of a
squad at that time. A buck sergeant, he was the platoon sergeant. Those ranks went up
over the years from staff sergeant to tech sergeant. A lot of them went AWOL and I was
on assignment to look at all the guys around and see if I could find our soldiers and
actually, we didn’t care if we found them or not, it was that much fun. 11:03 We were
there about a week or so, I think about a week, and then we got on the Lurline. The
Lurline was a passenger boat between the Hawaiian Islands, a luxury passenger boat,
between the Hawaiian Islands and the United States. They had filled in the decks with
bunks four high and there were about five thousand troops going on that boat and they
still had the civilian crew on the boat. 11:41
Interviewer: How many bunks were piled on top of each other?
5
�I think it was about—it was either three or four and at the end of the thing they made
temporary toilets and they were putrid anyway. I was sick, it took three weeks to get to
Australia and I was sick the whole time and you had to line up so many people around
that boat that you had to line up two hours before you would eat in order to get your hand
on your food. I was too sick to eat, so I just took some fruit and went back to my bunk
again. That was quite and experience for us. We arrived in Port Adelaide in south
Australia and the reason we went to Port Adelaide—we didn’t know at that time that we
were headed for New Guinea eventually. 12:44 We were going to train for jungle
warfare and actually what we were going to do was train to protect the Australians. They
figured the Japanese were going to come in and take Australia because all the Australian
troops were over in the Middle East. We went to the Port Adelaide and they parked us
right near a winery, that was a bad place to put a bunch of soldiers, and I think it was
about October at that time. It’s semi-tropical and the have orange trees and tropical trees.
I can remember the pails we had and we had regular tents and fold up cots that you put up
yourself. The Australians, being that they were a big sheep country, there number one
meat was mutton and they thought, we’ll give the American the mutton and we’ll have
the beef. 13:51 We could smell that mutton ten miles away and we couldn’t eat it, so got
to sneaking out and going to the farms and bringing food home and cooking it ourselves.
Eventually they let us have beef. We trained there for a few weeks while they were
building a camp in Brisbane, Australia to continue our training. We had to go crosscountry by train because the Japanese submarines were all around. Most of our
equipment was going by boat around—if you’re familiar with Australia and the shape of
it, around Port Moresby [Melbourne] and Sydney to Brisbane. 14:46 On that trip, the
6
�first man in our division was killed. I just had his name and I’ll tell ya—he was from
Battle Creek, Michigan. I had the name and I thought I could tell ya, but maybe I’ll think
of it.
Interviewer: Was he killed in an accident or how?
He was shot at from the subs, so they named that training place—it was an unusual trip to
take because each train in Australia has a different railroad gauge and you have to get out
at the end of each station and go onto another train. It was an experience there alone, and
then we got up to Brisbane. 15:44 We trained there for a short—it wasn’t going to be
too long a time and then they decided they were going to ship us—while I was in
Adelaide I happened to go to a school down there and I made friends that we have kept in
touch with for sixty years. We’ve kept in contact constantly all the time. What I went to
school for was, we thought we were going to have to live on the land and we had to go
out in the center of Australia, which is a desert, and from the Aborigines we learned we
could eat the grubs and stuff like that and where the water was in certain plants. We
thought we were going to have to fend off the land. That’s a bit of background and when
we were ready to go they put us on Liberty ships and they were new, not the old Liberty
ships 16:51. We got on the Liberty ships-Interviewer: Now, before they sent you over to New Guinea, did you get any kind of
jungle training or what they called jungle training?
We had some, but it was nothing like what we actually did. We never had the proper
equipment in the first place and what they had to do for camouflage, they didn’t have
camouflage, so they took our uniforms and sprayed them green and by spraying them you
couldn’t get any air through them. When we were actually in jungle warfare every time
7
�we would get to a stream we would take them off and try to scrub the paint off of them.
When we landed, under very dangerous times at Port Moresby, we stayed there for, I
don’t know, several weeks or not that long. 17:52
Interviewer: What sort of place was Port Moresby at that time?
Port Moresby is the only place in New Guinea that looked just like an Australian town.
Australians, of course, it’s one of their possessions, and it would be like any little
Australian town, but we were outside of the town and we never got into the town much.
At our camp we got diarrhea terrible and we couldn’t eat and our cooks, no way could
you eat the food. In Port Moresby, we were at the foot of the Owen Stanley Mountains,
which are twelve to thirteen thousand feet high and they figured, the Australian figured,
that the Japanese could never get over that mountain, but they were starting to trickle
over and those that got over weren’t worth much anyway. 19:01 We were bombed by
Japanese planes. They had air superiority most of the time, so every night they tried to
show us, from our foxhole, a big movie. They would show it to us, but that’s as far as we
could go anyway with the diarrhea. They would turn the lights out and show it and then
you would dive back in your hole. They got ready and they decided that part of them
were going to go over the mountain and before I forget it, at first our Colonel of the 126th
Infantry, a full Colonel, I did know his name, but I can’t think of it. He was making a
survey over New Guinea before we actually went into action and he was shot down and
got killed. 20:04 Part of us, our particular company, we got separated from most of the
fighting in New Guinea, I probably told you that. We were on a different side than the
rest of them were. Then they decided—the whole thing was getting Buna and the
airstrip. MacArthur said to take Buna no matter who was killed or what and he never set
8
�foot in New Guinea at that time. He just said, “you take them”, and most of the men in
that division, the 32nd Division, from Wisconsin and Michigan were killed, wounded or
got diseases. 21:00 There was a lot of disease. I had malaria six times and most of the
men that you interviewed all had malaria too.
Interviewer: What sort of effects does malaria have on you?
It’s a high, high fever and you just can’t move. A lot of men died over there because
there was no one to take you out. Eventually--we didn’t have any medicine and all we
had was quinine, in fact, at that time. There was an Atabrine; the Germans had it, which
would have helped us a lot. We didn’t have it and the Germans being our enemy, we
didn’t have Atabrine at that time. You just more or less laid down and stayed there until
you could move again because there was no way of getting you out. After a while your
fever keeps going down. 21:58 Eventually, while I was there, we got the Atabrine
somehow. Whether they made there own formula or what, I don’t know. It helped, but it
wasn’t any cure. I use to have to stand my men up and make sure they put the pill in their
mouth because they wanted to go home. Everybody was yellow looking and all that.
That’s how it affects your body.
Interviewer: The Atabrine would also make that.
Yes
Interviewer: Back up a little bit now. Originally the division is basically mostly in
place at Port Moresby and part of your regiment is assigned to walk over the
mountains. Now, the part that you were with, how did you get over? 22:50
They decided—there was a little strip on the northern shore there, I think it was near
Pongani, there was a strip they thought they could get an airplane into, but it wasn’t a
9
�strip at all, it was just an open field. I think one of the planes crash-landed there. Part of
us got in that plane and I was one of them. From then on it was jungle walking and we
hadn’t met any enemy yet. It was along the coast with all the coconut palms and all that.
It was along that coast. The only food we got was by airplane and, of course, the
Japanese had air superiority and we might get the food and we might not. Most of it was
C rations and sometimes we got the Australian corned beef and hard tack. 23:56
Sometimes we got their food and sometimes we would go as high as three days and never
get any food. You couldn’t build a fire or anything because the Japanese would be after
you. The only equipment you had—you had a shelter half. It rained every night almost,
terrible temperature, mosquitoes, we had to wear a net over there. The Garand rifle we
had—in each squad there would be a Browning automatic and they finally got—one in
each squad got the little hand machine gun with a drum of either fifty or twenty and we
wouldn’t use the fifties because they rattle. 24:50 We hadn’t seen any enemy yet.
Interviewer: Were you seeing any natives in that area?
Well, there were some natives, yes. A lot of natives took some of our equipment and you
couldn’t trust them. They were apt to take you right into the woods and dump you and
the only pay they got was some of our c rations and that’s how we paid them. We were
told not to go into any of the villages because those people would starve to death because
they don’t know enough to keep food. They had little gardens and stuff and they didn’t
want you near their women, which nobody would want to be anyway. 25:50 The
animals—the only animals you got—you got the alligators and a lot of poison snakes, but
we didn’t—with all the troops there I didn’t hardly see a snake, but some of them did and
some didn’t. We also had that problem on our Louisiana maneuvers with the Coral
10
�snake. We lost several people down there. We were going along the coast towards
where we were going to make contact with them and the first think--you still didn’t think
you were in a war and all of a sudden—along that coast there was a sort of a backwater
and river and the Australians had a little boat trying to get closer to the front and all of
sudden we saw hundreds of bloated bodies of Australians. That was the first realization
that we were in a war and, of course, that shook us all. 26:47
Interviewer: What happened after you came on that scene?
Then we kept right on going and we couldn’t get boats in there either, so we couldn’t do
anything about it. All we could do was continue and along with that there were some
Australians too. We kept on going on up the coast and you couldn’t dig holes because six
inches down there was water. The only water you had to drink was brackish water. We
put a pill in it to purify it, but you couldn’t quench your thirst any of the time.
Sometimes you quenched your thirst with the coconut palms. You could open up the
coconuts and drink it and if you did you got diarrhea. 27:41
Interviewer: Could you do anything to catch the rainwater?
We weren’t in one place long enough to catch any rainwater, no. There were little
streams you could go into and we tore our clothes all off and scrubbed them in the sand
because that’s the only way you could keep them clean. We didn’t have any heavy
equipment outside of 60mm mortars and the machine guns.
Interviewer: You basically had what you could carry.
What you could carry and they said later they had tanks, but we had no, not any, big
guns. Mostly mortars and machine guns. Then we got up there where they figured the
enemy was and that we were going to have contact with the enemy the next day. They
11
�said for me to take the men a hundred yards up the road and assemble up there and I got
up there and I didn’t have any men there. They all went back the other way, so we went
back and reorganized and jabbed them a bit and started over again. 28:56 The team,
before we went up there, the supply sergeant, he went berserk and he got into a hole and
was shooting at everybody. He finally got killed and that was in the beginning of the
action.. From then on we had a jungle path—there’s no communications, only a runner
and no radios or nothing like that in there. We had different incidents and it’s kind of
boring in a way, yet you didn’t see the soldiers and in the night two guys would sleep
together so one stayed awake while the other slept. You could hear the Japanese make
noise at night and say English things to get us out. 29:58 We didn’t take any—the
Australians wouldn’t take any prisoners, but we took a few prisoners. We didn’t want—
if we did the Australians would kill them before they got back to be questioned. We
found some of our men that were taken prisoners and they bayoneted them against a tree.
I’m trying to think—there was all this long grass and every time an airplane came over
they didn’t know where we were either and it was a scary thought. 30:40
Interviewer: Do you remember the first time you actually encountered the Japanese
or were fired on by them?
When we got off the line we were constantly being fired at with mortars. The jungle’s
hard to see people and the Japanese had been there enough time ahead of us, they were in
pillboxes and with the equipment we had it was almost impossible against the pillbox.
I’d been on a lot of patrols and sent my men on patrols and around the pillboxes there
would be wire fence with cans on it so they could hear you coming. It was impossible to
do anything against the pillboxes with the equipment we had. The Australians, they
12
�would tell them they had to take that pillbox and they would try to take the pillboxes and
the guys would get killed. 31:48
Interviewer: Now, did you have Australian soldiers serving right along side of you?
No, they were just close by and we were not side-by-side. They were just a few feet from
us.
Interviewer: They were sort of the next section of the line?
Yes, and that’s the way we fought to clear up the place until we got near Buna. Actually
I was on the outskirts of Buna and when I took cigarettes to my men a sniper got me with
a 25-caliber bullet, that’s what they had, and they were exploding bullets, which were
supposed to be outlawed by the Geneva Convention, but the Japanese don’t go by
anything like that. 32:48 It exploded in me, in my heart and my lungs, but I never was
out. They had to get natives; there were no Americans, no Americans there to haul you
out, so they had natives. They couldn’t use any equipment we had, so they had to make
something on poles.
Interviewer: Did your own men get you back off the front line first?
There was no front line really, that’s another thing, there’s no front line. They could be
behind you, beside you, you would never know where they were. I got cigarettes to my
men and at that time I didn’t care if I got wounded or not. It’s not like Vietnam, you
know you got to be there for a year, and here you didn’t know if you were going to be
there was ten years or not. You never knew the end of it. 33:49 When I was up there,
right on the coast of Buna, all the big generals, General Eichelberger, they came up there
and two or three other generals. Their bright Chino clothes stood out like a thumb you
know, and as soon as they got back we really got peppered. They were supposed to have
13
�brought us a Christmas dinner and if they did I never got it, but I have my doubts that
they did.
Interviewer: You got hit on December 22nd didn’t you?
December 26 and that’s one date I did not forget, 1942.
Interviewer: So, they got the natives to take you back, and did you got to an aid
station at that point?
Yeah, they had to take me back—there was a little strip on the coast down there. They
had an aid station and they got some little planes in there and all they do is give you first
aid stuff. 34:55 They got little planes in there and they took you out one at a time and
flew you to Port Moresby. I went to Port Moresby and they had a big tent hospital there.
That’s where you went until they could get you back to Australia. I was shot up so bad
that my folks got the telegram that I was seriously wounded in action. They didn’t know
if I would make it and they had to operate on me and take these pieces of shrapnel out of
my heart and without any pain killer. Then I was too sick to fly back, some of them
could fly back, but I was too sick to fly. They had a hospital ship called Wannanilla and
mostly it was meant for Australia to take them back to New Guinea. 36.04 They had
room for a couple Americans I guess, so we got on that boat and went back to Cairns and
the hospital was full, so we went back to Townsville and the hospitals were full. We
went right down the coast and in Brisbane the hospitals were full and we got to Sydney
and they let a couple guys off there and I was one of them and then they were going to
Melbourne and they got you out there weren’t any hospitals built either, so they sent us
clear up in the mountains in a resort that was like a little hotel with rooms separate.
14
�36:50 I was in one of those rooms and I was there for quite some time and would see the
doctor and nurses and Red Cross. I didn’t see anybody else up there.
Interviewer: How well did they take care of you there?
I was taken care of well, but you never see anybody and there’s nothing to do. I couldn’t
move around and I was going to be there until—they were building a new hospital in
Australia, in Sydney. After the Americans started using their hospitals they looked alike.
They finally got that built and I was sent down there and finally I went to—I don’t know
how many months I was there and then I went to Prince Alfred Hospital and was one of
the main hospitals in Sydney and it was right downtown. 37:47 I would keep getting
malaria and it takes about six weeks to treat you each time you get malaria. Downtown I
thought I was going to go back home and they said—they needed help over there and if
you want to go back, and actually I did, if I didn’t have to go back and fight again I’d just
as soon stay there, so they sent me out to—they decided they were going to—that same
hospital is where my son was born—they were going to send me out to a place where you
recover and it was called Warwick Farm out in the outskirts of Sydney and actually it was
a horse track, a horserace track. They had a tent city there, so we went back there to be
treated. 38:39
Interviewer: Now, at this point could you walk and get around at all?
I could walk around then, but I was limited and couldn’t do too much. I didn’t know
what they were going to do with me and then they finally interviewed and they got me a
job in Sydney in MacArthur’s headquarters. The Grace Building was the tallest building
in Sydney and that’s only eleven floors high. They believed tall buildings in the
earthquake zone were dangerous. I was put in charge, because I had some experience
15
�like that working at the sanitarium, they put me in charge as the chief clerk they called it,
the chief clerk, and I had about thirty people working for me, some civilian and some
army. 39:35
Interviewer: What rank were you at that point?
I was a Staff Sergeant and they made me a Tech Sergeant, but if you look at the records, I
was a platoon sergeant because all the officers were killed and the platoon sergeant was
killed and several officers killed, and they were going to give me a battlefield
commission, but I got shot up. Our Captain, and they probably never say much about it,
his name was Captain Fryerson, he took over from the push, the push fight, and he stayed
over there and became a Major, but Fryerson was a coward and he had to go back and be
tried and all they did to him was make him a First Lieutenant and kept him in Hawaii, so
I don’t know if he did better or worse. 40:34
Interviewer: Now, you’ve been assigned to MacArthur’s headquarters. When was
that?
I can’t tell you the exact date because a lot of that stuff has slipped out of me.
Interviewer: Was it still in 1943?
It must have been in 1943. I was in the hospital for quite some time. Of course the
people that worked there, none of them liked MacArthur. His little kid would be in the
hotel across the road and you would see him playing out there with a Philippine woman
looking after him. All the people in my office were all people that had been wounded
and the Captain was too. Then they decided to move back to Brisbane, so we went back
to Brisbane. 41: 38 Before I went there I had a leave, a week off, and I went to the
middle of the city to a hotel there and they had what they called a Trocadero, it was a
16
�dance hall and it had two orchestras, American soldiers, and a revolving stage. The
Australian girls were to meet us there and dance with us to get acquainted. On the very
first night I met my wife and they weren’t supposed to have anything to do with you on
the outside, they leave you at the door. I went every night that week and I continued to
go and visit her at her house while I stayed at this Warwick Farm, and then we decided to
get married. No one had gotten married in those days; they didn’t allow the American to
get married. 42:35
Interviewer: How did you manage it?
I had to go see the commanding general of Sydney, I remember General Raleigh, a
Brigadier General. My money had never caught up with me since I’d been wounded. He
interviewed us and said he would have the Red Cross interview us. He said, “Have you
got any money?” I said, “I’ve got a three pound note that I kept throughout the war, but I
still haven’t been paid”, and he took money out of his pocket and gave it to me. That was
one of the first ones and I had to go through a lot of red tape. Eventually there was thirty
thousand Americans marrying Australians. I went back to Brisbane again and my wife
came up to Brisbane too and we stayed there for about six months. 43:36 I went back to
Sydney again to MacArthur’s headquarters and stayed there for a while and my wife had
a baby, my son was born there. Then I went back to Brisbane again, and she couldn’t go
up there this time and I was only there a short time. MacArthur’s headquarters was
moving to Hollandia, Dutch New Guinea, so we went up there. It’s a different situation
when you’re in MacArthur’s headquarters you live like a king. That was all right up
there and the point systems came out and I had points in that whole area. I’d been over
there long enough in all the conditions and they said I could go home if I wanted to.
17
�They offered me a warrant officer’s job again, but I said I wanted to go home. 44:39
They said, being in MacArthur’s headquarters, I could either fly home or go on the boat.
I said I didn’t want to go on the boat because I was sick for three weeks. I had to island
hop and sty for two or three days until I could get a plane, and I finally got back to the
United States, back to Chicago to be discharged. I went in there to be discharged and
they said for me to go home on a month leave and come back and they would discharge
me.
Interviewer: At that point was your wife able to come with you?
My wife wasn’t able—the war wasn’t over yet in Japan and she had to wait a year. She
came back on the Lurline, the same beat that we took over. There were about five
hundred wives and three hundred babies and the called it the “brides ship”. 45:42 They
had an experience when they had that big storm on the ocean and in Hawaii the towns
were flattened.
Interviewer: While you were stationed at MacArthur’s headquarters, what kind of
work were you doing there?
It was in the Adjutant General’s Publication Division and we were the ones that printed
all of your army regulations books and manuals and assembled them and shipped them
out to the different units, to each one of them, to their headquarters. It was an interesting
job and I was a supervisor and I was the top non-commissioned officer. 46:45 That
particular place was right in Brisbane, the last place I was at before we went to Hollandia.
You’ve never been to Australia, but there’s a big town hall there and it’s still there, the
town hall, and we had a little separate building right beside it where the Adjutant
General’s Publication Division was. It was an interesting job and we had to make all the
18
�corrections in all the army manuals and everything else and make sure that all these units
got them throughout all the SW Pacific. We were going to go— MacArthur, while we
were up there in Hollandia, had a cabin or a house built up there just for his wife and we
were all ready to go to Manila when I had this chance to get out. 47:51
Interviewer: Did you get to see much of MacArthur himself or were you far enough
away?
He was just in and out. I’d see him in and out all the time and I’d see his little kid
playing at the hotel across there, but he wasn’t too popular among the men that worked
there and even the other generals.
Interviewer: As far as you could tell, why was that?
He was a show off kind of a man. Like when he went to New Guinea and he said he
didn’t care if every man gets killed, you stay there until you take Buna. He never went
up there once. He went to a lot of the places, but he never went there. Then he relieved
Harding because they weren’t getting things done fast enough and they put in
Eichelberger after that. 48:57 A lot of these famous people--a lot of incidents on the
road going up there. One time, all the food was dropped by air and sometimes you go
two or three days with no food because you got to keep on going to the next stop and one
time everybody had moved out, but part of our company, they dropped a battalion's worth
of food on us. All we did was stuff ourselves and they had chocolate bars and they had
never perfected chocolate then that wouldn’t melt, so we stuffed our pockets full of it and
it melted and got insects and weird incidents like that. We ate grass, but you couldn’t
cook anything because you have mortars right on top of you. 49:48 We saw soldiers,
19
�Japanese, they wouldn’t be taken prisoners and they would run out into the ocean and kill
themselves with bayonets or grenades so they wouldn’t be taken. .
Interviewer: In that period when you were in that Buna sector where the Japanese
were, was your unit ever able to move forward at all or make what you would call
progress?
They made progress, but very slow, you might make a hundred yards and things like that.
The main thing was the mortar. I sent one patrol out from my platoon and I’ll never
forget that. It was the nighttime and they came back, what few of them did come back
and I went on a few of those myself because you can’t make men go if you can’t do it
yourself. 50:50 One of the guys in the patrol came back and had no face at all; all he
had was holes in his face. Back on Port Moresby I happened to meet him again, but he
died. We had a lot—not just malaria, but the dengue fever, the black water fever, and all
those, jungle rot and all that and most of the division was killed or wounded.
Interviewer: They weren’t all killed, but ninety percent of them were either dead or
unfit for duty.
That’s right, they weren’t all killed.
Interviewer: For a lot of them, Buna was the war even if they survived. 51:46
It doesn’t seem like it was worth it for what—every little step that you had going toward
Japan, because they were island hopping from then on and a lot of this—it was all along
the coast, but you’re in your own little shelter and you only had half a company and our
Captain, he’s be right in the middle with his men all around him because there was no
front line. No food, no conditions and it was horrible thoughts when you start seeing
your men get killed one after another,
20
�Interviewer: In the longer run they did learn some things from it. MacArthur
didn’t do quite that same kind of thing again; they had better equipment and better
supplies and medicine. You guys were the guinea pigs. 52:44
We were there before we should have been there and the equipment we had—the BAR’s
would rust and it was hard to keep your equipment. In every squad you had one 03 rifle
from WWI because we could launch grenades with it, so we had one in every squad.
Whoever had that machine gun, sub machine gun; he would get killed right off the bat
because they hated him. In fact, finally I got one too and I took it from my men because
nobody wanted to carry it. 53:31
Interviewer: Was that a Thompson sub-machine gun?
Yes, with a 20 drum. We had fifty drums, fifty shells, but they rattled.
Interviewer: Those were the gangster movie ones right?
Yeah, but they were troublesome too, they wouldn’t always work. You got equipment—
you didn’t have any equipment to take care of stuff like that. No supplies except what
was carried up by natives and no contact because there were no radios and stuff.
Eventually they had a few tanks in there, but we never saw any tanks. It probably shows
you in the records that there were, but I never saw a tank there at all. 54:15
Interviewer: Most of that stuff comes in later.
The Japanese had those 37 mm’s and we didn’t get them until later. We didn’t have
anything big and we couldn’t fight against those pillboxes. The mortars wouldn’t touch
them and machine guns wouldn’t touch them.
Interviewer: You would have to get up very close with grenades and get lucky.
21
�I didn’t want to have to—you slept at night with your buddy and we were awake all
night. You had several men who were killed. They killed each other because they
thought it was a Jap. You would wake up and it was too late.
Interviewer: Did you manage to catch any Japanese trying to sneak into your
position?
There were dead ones all around, rotten and smelly. 55:09 They were all around us
because we couldn’t get up. You couldn’t dig down to make a slick trench because there
was water. Those kinds of conditions were just horrible. I saw a lot of our men get
killed.
Interviewer: Now, to kind of move here back out at the other end. You finally get
back to the states and have been discharged etc. What did you do at that point?
Then I—because I didn’t know what I was going to do, and of course I had a son and a
wife, and the year that I had training in college wasn’t enough and I had to get a job fast.
So, at that time, I had to go around and check out different places and in fact I wanted
to—I had enough cash to buy a new car, but they wouldn’t sell you a new car if you
didn’t have an old one to turn in. 56:18 I was going to get a Ford, but at they time it
was only $700.00 for a new Ford, but they wouldn’t sell it to you. I had to borrow my
dad’s car until later on I got another car, but being interviewed I got to the Sinclair
Refining company and I got a job there. It was a dress-up job in the office and the man
that had the job before hadn’t gotten out of the army yet and he let it be known that he
didn’t want to come back there again, so I got that job. 57:09 The boss was a real eager
beaver guy and he had me belong to every organization and things like that. Then I’ll be
darned if the guy didn’t come back and he said he wanted his job back and according to
22
�the government I had to give it up. Then I went to work for the Kellogg Company. They
wanted me to be in the office, but there weren’t any vacancies yet, so I worked six
months in the plant. I got in the office and I ended up in the research at Kellogg’s, which
was interesting and from then on I worked there for thirty-four years in different
capacities, but mostly in the engineering offices and planning section because of the
experience I had in MacArthur’s headquarters. 58:09 A lot of that helped me. I just
stayed there and I had four children and I belong to a lot of different organization and
active in the church and active—I’ve been a DAV, American Legion, I belong to them
all. Now, all of my children are grown up and my son was a full Colonel and my son in
law was a full Colonel, they were in Vietnam. I had one grand kid go to West Point and
she had to go to Iraq twice as a Captain where she met her husband to be who was a
Major and two weeks ago, on the holiday, they had a big wedding in Pennsylvania at the
was college. It was a big outfit with three hundred people there. They had the crossed
swords you know how they do? 59:13 My son keeps up—he probably knows as much
about the 32nd Division as I do. He’s an ardent reader of history and he was a deputy
commander at Fort Carson, the last job he had. He’s still dealing with the army. They
sent him overseas and they send him to Washington every now and then. They want his
opinion because he was on airplanes and disposing of equipment and because of the
technical knowledge that he has. He’s well known all around and he knows all the
generals. He should have been a general—he had a brigade command for one term, but
because the army got cut back, the Colonel’s, had to do a brigadier’s job. :11 That’s
how close he got to it.
23
�Interviewer: To look back on the whole thing now, how do you think your time in
the service had an effect on you? You talked about the experience you got in
Macarthur’s headquarters. What else do you think you carried with you out of all
that?
Well there was one thing—our original group is back to seven men now and I think we
had about a hundred and seventy men and their all gone now and there was better
comradeship What I find is people have their college friends, high school friends, and
people you work with, but I think people that you fight with and protect each other is a
different feeling. You have a different comradeship. These people are life long friends
and not like the rest of them. I can’t compare them with the high school people or people
you worked with or church people or whoever else, so in general, as I look back on it
now, it was a good experience. 1:28
Interviewer: Thank you very much for talking to me today and that finishes the
tape.
24
�25
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cripps, Donald (Interview transcript and video), 2008
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Cripps, Donald
Description
An account of the resource
Donald Cripps joined the Michigan National Guard in 1940 and served in Company C of the 126th Infantry Regiment, 32nd (Red Arrow) Division during World War II. He describes training in Louisiana, service in Australia and New Guinea. He was wounded at Buna in New Guinea and then was stationed in Australia after he recovered.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
United States--National Guard
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Video recordings
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2008-06-05
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
CrippsD
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/eaca64acb08a5474f767577e5505e26c.mp4
366be8a7c84afbd1033693f19300dc36
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f336ddfa0fb39eb68bd4b9ff1bd4db86.pdf
79cc3954ad2066ee96fc10da1499ab7a
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Arch Crist
(00:17:34)
(00:44) Pre-enlistment:
• Graduated high school in 1945
• Lived in River Falls, WI
• When to River Falls State Teachers College; which is now part of Wisconsin University
• After a year of school he decided to enlist instead of being drafted
• If he was drafted he would have lost some of his college credits
• He had little money to pay for school so the GI Bill was another reason for joining
(2:40) Enlistment:
• He chose the Army when he enlisted
• Was inducted at Fort Snelling near Minneapolis, MN
• Went to Fort Sheridan, IL for deployment to basic training
• Basic training took place at Fort Lewis, WA in 1946
• After basic he was allowed leave to go back home
• Was sent to San Francisco to get on a troop ship to Japan
• Stopped in Guam before going into a harbor in Yokohama
• Took a train into Tokyo, were he stayed at a replacement depot (temporary Army camp)
(4:30) Troop ship/Trip:
• After going under the Golden Gate Bridge the swell of the ocean affected many soldiers,
and caused a lot of them to become sea sick
• Had bolted down standup tables were you would eat your food
• Spent time in Guam at a Navy recreational center on the beach, had some cold beer
(6:16) Military Occupational Service (MOS):
• He was in the 1st Cavalry Division, 8th Regiment
• 8th Regiment was the sister regiment to General Custer’s 7th regiment
• The 1st Cavalry Division was an armored infantry division
• Basic training was in Tokyo and then moved to Omiya; which was about 30 minutes
away
• Started a camp newspaper and a drum and bugle corp. in Omiya
• Marched in a parade in downtown Tokyo on the Imperial Palace grounds in front of
General MacArthur
�•
•
•
•
Woke up early for daily calisthenics, and emergency drills
They had to practice at the firing range with multiple firearms
He was the best marksman with the Browning Automatic Rifle in the 1st Cavalry Division
He had to attend instructional classes and forced marches
(9:02) Friends:
• Meet one of his best friends in Omiya, and eventually Arch went on to be his best man in
his wedding
• Arch also decided to follow his friend by joining his fraternity at University of Illinois
(10:01) War Crimes Trials:
• When he was on pass he went down to the courts to watch the war crimes trials of Tojo
and Suzuki
(10:40) Free Time:
• He would do a lot of reading, tennis, and swimming
• They would go into Tokyo on the weekends
• Generally they were usually so busy they only had the weekends to enjoy some free time
(11:01) Holidays:
• Spent this first Christmas on the troop ship off of Guam
• The only thing done to celebrate was to put a small Christmas tree on top of the Ship
• Celebrated another Christmas in Japan
(11:46) Fear:
• When he landed at Yokosuka, an old Japanese naval station, in Yokohama they had to get
on trains that were run by Japanese ex-military personal.
• The replacement depot near Tokyo was surrounded by barbered wire and so when they
went out at night on the town they thought they should carry 45 caliber hand gun for
protection
• After a few months they stopped carrying their firearms because the US did not prosecute
the Japanese Emperor Hirohito
(13:48) Lessons learned/Opportunities
• Got his college paid for with the GI Bill
• Experiences while being in the Army in Japan gave him a perspective on life that he
might not have otherwise had
• His military experience was a very positive one, but of course that had a lot to do the fact
that the war was over
�•
•
Ended military experience at a Private 1st class, and did not go on to further military
service
He felt lucky that he did not reenlist because he would have been sent onto Korea, and
the 1st Cavalry Division played a major role in halting the Chinese/North Korean counter
attack
(15:49) After the Military:
• Went to University of Illinois and joined Beta Theta Pi, and graduated with a bachelors in
Journalism
• He then went to Minneapolis and was hired by their local paper the Star & Tribune
• He then went into advertising in the Twin Cities
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Crist, Arch (Interview outline and video), 2007
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Crist, Arch
Description
An account of the resource
Arch Crist joined the US Army in 1946 and left after a year and a half. He spent his training time in the U.S. at Fort Snelling, Fort Sheridan, and in Fort Lewis. He was shipped out from San Francisco to Japan where he was part of the occupational force. Before getting to Japan he stopped in Guam where he celebrated Christmas. He tells of his experiences in Japan while in Yokohama harbor, and while at the base in Omiya. He attended the War Crimes Trials in Tokyo, and took part in a parade on the Imperial Palace grounds. General MacArthur was watching the processions at the Imperial Palace that day. He talks about the close friendships he made while in Omiya. He also mentions how his experience in Japan was shaped by the US government's decision to let Hirohito escape trial. He went on to be a journalist and then an advertising executive in Minneapolis.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Crist, Karl (Interviewer)
Forest Hills Eastern High School (Ada, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Veterans
Video recordings
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2007-05-20
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
CristA
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8448ba0d2e22b211c5cfb49c46b211df.mp4
4c93aeece1a99fac420db8222c6e4947
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/be45ef49fe08d2f0ae64ef9b1753efeb.pdf
6c75353c5a97dfa347021eceaa57a3d5
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Vietnam
Anthony Critchlow
Total Time – (01:44:30)
Background
·
·
·
·
He was born in Boise, Idaho on November 9, 1948 (00:26)
He did not leave Boise until he joined the military
He graduated from Borah High School in Boise, Idaho in 1967 (00:38)
His dad passed away when he was ten years old
o He was an auto body mechanic
o His mom worked odd jobs after his father passed away
· When he was in high school he was aware of Vietnam but did not pay much
attention to it (01:37)
· After high school he went to work as a dishwasher at the restaurant his mother
worked at
o He was nineteen and knew the draft was going to call on him so he went
and enlisted (01:54)
Enlistment/Training – (02:02)
· When he went to enlist, he took a test and received a high score
o They told him he could pick what job he wanted to have (02:21)
§ He chose to be a cook
§ The recruiter was slightly dumbfounded because of the high score
on the ASVAB test (02:44)
· He signed up around the beginning of November of 1967 (03:14)
· He went to basic training at Fort Lewis, Washington (03:20)
· The facility at Fort Lewis was essentially World War II barracks
· The soldiers were “only one step above pond scum” (03:38)
· When soldiers first go in, they get more shots, take more tests, given a speedreading on Morse Code, and taught all of the basic skills
o They were also taught how to dress properly
· If soldiers did anything wrong, it was automatically 20-25 push-ups (04:23)
o There was never a level of punishment beyond push-ups
· It was not very difficult to adapt to military life
· He was always the slowest person because of his weight (05:12)
�· Many of the men that had problems were men that were drafted (05:47)
o They would always bicker and not do what they were supposed to
· Within his training unit, they would sometimes have “blanket parties” for people
who caused problems for the unit
o They would roll someone up and “beat the crap out of you” (06:26)
· He was in basic training for eight weeks (07:09)
o He was sent home for Christmas
· He was told that everyone was supposed to be infantry (07:49)
· He then received his orders to go to Fort Lee, Virginia, for Advanced Individual
Training (07:55)
· It was culture shock when he first got there
o He worked with a lot of black men
· He was trained by blacks and whites (08:31)
· Cook training consisted of how to read a recipe, how to read the worksheets, how
to make the food, etc. (08:43)
· He was at the Advanced Individual Training for eight weeks
· Soldiers were allowed to leave the base on some weekends (09:46)
o He made three or four trips to Washington D.C.
· When on tours through Washington D.C., soldiers wore their Class A uniforms
(10:35)
· He never had any problems in Washington D.C. for being a soldier
Active Duty – Part I – (12:10)
· He was assigned to Frankfurt, Germany
o He went home for a wedding and then flew to Germany (12:15)
§ He flew out of Fort Dix, New Jersey
· When he got to Germany the soldier he was replacing had re-enlisted so they sent
him to Vicenza, Italy (12:43)
· When he landed in Vicenza, the cook had re-enlisted there as well (13:02)
· They then sent him to Verona, Italy where he stayed for one year (13:11)
· In Verona, it was 24 hours on, 24 hours off with every other weekend free (13:28)
· He was able to take his time and travel through Europe
o He wore civilian clothes when traveling
· The Italians liked the soldiers as people, but they hated them as Americans
(14:09)
· When he would cook for the Army, he was told how to and what to prepare
· He volunteered to go to Vietnam (15:11)
· He thought that Italy was boring and that there were better choices in life than to
be in Italy for three years and get out of the service
· During this time he was paying attention to the Vietnam war and knew that it was
where the action was (15:41)
· He was in Italy for almost exactly one year
�·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
o He was sent home for 30 days before leaving for Vietnam (16:03)
He then went to Fort Lewis and went through preparatory training
They then flew out of Fort McCord, Washington (16:31)
He flew on a charter civilian craft
They flew in to Alaska where they refueled the plane before flying to Japan and
then on to Vietnam (16:58)
He landed in Cam Ranh Bay, Vietnam (17:05)
The mood on the plane was relatively calm
o Men were reading, smoking, chatting, etc.
o When they got off the plane, the stewardesses were crying (17:30)
His first impression was that sand was everywhere
o It was extremely hot and muggy (18:01)
Once the soldiers were off the plane, they went to a reception center until they
were told where to go (18:34)
o He was there for nearly three days
He was assigned to the 101st Airborne Division and his in-country training was in
Bien Hoa, Vietnam (19:32)
o He was there for nearly one week
§ They did a lot of guard duty, fake jungle patrols, fake Vietnamese
attacks with blanks, and how to load people onto helicopters
o Everyone received the training (20:39)
He then boarded a C-130 and went to Camp Evans (20:52)
At Camp Evans it was extremely bright and extremely hot (22:15)
The soldiers got their orders and shifts that they would be working
The food in Vietnam was primarily roast beef, chicken, or some turkey on
holidays (23:40)
o There were also canned vegetables and potatoes
The cooks would get up extremely early every day
He noticed that the African American men hated the white men and tension
existed (25:46)
o They would never hang out together no matter how much they tried
The racial split was predominantly in the lower ranked servicemen
Most of the cooks were on their first tour (26:44)
o Many of them were going to retire immediately after Vietnam
o Some of them were fairly old
There was a lot of drug abuse on the military base (27:23)
Some of the men smoked OJ’s – an opium and marijuana laced cigarette (28:21)
o The drugs would sometimes affect job performance but all the jobs would
get done
If soldiers took one step off of the road they were immediately court-martialed
They were not allowed to go to any bars or visit any ladies (30:07)
When at Camp Evans, there were rockets that landed within the camp but they
never made any contact with buildings on the base
He began volunteering to join units that would relieve another company or unit in
�·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
the field because he did not want to stay at base the whole time (31:26)
o He wanted to see more action
The cooks were called “RIMF’s” (Retarded Ignorant Mother Fucker) (32:09)
The first firebase that he went to was Firebase Blaze (32:24)
o This was still in 1969
o He stayed at Firebase Blaze for nearly a month
His unit put all of its supplies on a military mule [basically a platform on tracks
used for moving supplies on a base] and loaded it onto the helicopter
The firebase was very dusty and dirty (34:24)
The soldiers lived in a hole in the ground that was big enough for a cot (34:36)
The base never saw any attack when he was there
He experienced his first “mad minute” where soldiers were ordered to just fire
any ammunition that they had (35:55)
o They would just shoot anywhere
o They did this in case the enemy was sneaking in – it served as a deterrent
(36:28)
The weather was extremely hot and muggy – it would get cooler in the evenings
because it was in the mountains
C-rations were only used for lunch and there was always a hot breakfast and
dinner (38:38)
He would follow a similar routine at every firebase – he went to Firebase
Bastogne, Firebase Birmingham, and some others (39:25)
He remembers the monsoon weather at some of the firebases
o He saw a typhoon around January
o The military hooches stayed fairly dry during this weather (40:22)
He remained with the same group for the majority of the time – they were the
ones that always wanted to volunteer (40:51)
Active Duty – Part I – Ripcord – (41:13)
· He went to Firebase Ripcord on May 13, 1970 (41:59)
o The Vietnamese artillery were on the lower side and the Americans were
on top
· The field kitchen was originally in a trench that was next to the helicopter pad
(43:02)
o They then decided to make a hole in the ground that was 10x12 ft.
o They put sand bags on top to make sure it was waterproof (43:51)
o It was only big enough for soldiers to come through and get their food but
not to sit and eat
· During his time there he was told that the enemy was around them (44:59)
· There were times when there was so much fog that they believed an attack would
happen
· When he returned from R&R, Ripcord was getting hit with one mortar in the
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morning and one at night (45:45)
o The following day it was two in the morning and two at night – the day
after that was three in the morning and three at night
o There was much more activity as he was about to leave
All of the cooks were replaced with new cooks (46:46)
o There were two cooks on the firebase that were injured
He remembers seeing one of the fellow cooks walking with shrapnel in his face
and another cook's brains all over him (49:14)
He went to Sydney, Australia for his R&R because it was the furthest location
from Vietnam that he could go
The Australians would try to convince the Americans to not go back (50:05)
He feels that R&R was a chance to see something that he would never be able to
see otherwise (50:50)
When he was at Ripcord he could walk around and do what he wanted
There was a cave on a mountain below Ripcord from where a Vietnamese soldier
shot down an American helicopter (52:45)
When he left Ripcord he was ready to leave (54:52)
He went to the kitchen that had been blown up to get his stuff before leaving –
this is when he saw his friend covered in another soldiers brains
He then traveled back to Camp Evans (56:25)
He stayed at Camp Evans until he left for Cam Ranh Bay where he stayed until he
left for Fort Lewis (56:35)
The trip back to Fort Lewis was extremely cheerful (56:58)
On the trip back, they landed in Japan where they were told not to buy anything
because they might cause the plane to weigh too much for takeoff
o He bought a camera lens in Japan (57:29)
He then landed in Fort Lewis where he received all of his tests and medical exams
Discharge/After the Service – (57:55)
· He was discharged at Fort Lewis (58:13)
· When he landed at the airport they were told not to look at anyone in the eye, not
to talk to anyone, and not to say hi because they would get spit on by protestors
· The soldiers were still in uniform at this time (58:47)
· When he landed, his mother met him, he found civilian clothes and flew home
· When he got home he got a job as a delivery car driver for eyeglasses (59:36)
o He stayed at this job for nearly three years
Reenlistment – Active Duty – Part II – (59:51)
· He then reenlisted into the Army because the Boise economy was bad (59:59)
· He talked to a recruiter at the state fair where he was told how much money he
could make
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o He realized he would double his current pay
When he reenlisted, he remained a cook (01:00:41)
o He had to remain a cook to keep his rank
He got married and then talked to his wife about his reenlistment (01:02:02)
He remained in the United States when he reenlisted and was stationed at Fort
Eustis, Virginia (01:03:13)
o He fed all of the MP’s and instructors for the school at Fort Eustis
The food was much better than in Vietnam (01:03:38)
o There were fresh vegetables
His wife was able to go along with him during this assignment where they lived
off the military base (01:04:03)
o She got a job at Dunkin Donuts
They remained at Fort Eustis for nearly a year until he received his orders to go to
Europe (01:04:38)
In Germany the soldiers took a lot of race-relations courses
He received more orders for Germany (01:06:31)
He was assigned to Stuttgart, Germany (01:07:12)
o He showed up with his wife so they had to be put up in a hotel because the
military housing was full
§ This lasted for 39 days (01:07:43)
During this time they had to find a car, find a house, and get their drivers licenses
o At this point he was an E-5 (sergeant)
When he initially returned to the service, he felt like all of the fellow servicemen
were terrible (01:09:52)
o No one wanted to do their work
There was a different attitude between the volunteers and those that were drafted
(01:10:19)
When he was in his assignment in Germany, he was moved from Stuttgart to
Nellingen, Germany (01:11:15)
o It was a joint Army and Air Force base
He and his wife were able to stay in the same apartment – they simply had an
extra twenty minutes of driving time to work
They bought an American car and were able to travel around Europe (01:12:43)
After Germany, he received orders for Fort Hood, Texas (01:13:15)
o Between Germany and Texas, he was sent for advanced training to be a
cook
§ He learned supervising skills, how to take care of soldiers, how to
read a map, etc. (01:13:41)
In Texas he was in the 2nd Armored Division (01:14:02)
He was in a Deuce and a Half truck and would drive all over with standard field
kitchen equipment (01:14:34)
He became an E-6 rank and was in charge of a mess team
He spent one year at Fort Hood (01:16:11)
His battalion was chosen to go back to Germany for another three years in
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Karlstedt (01:16:30)
o He lived in a town off of the base
He was extremely disappointed to live back in Germany (01:17:32)
Karlstedt was a depressing time because they did not want to be there
After Karlstedt, he was given the option of Fort Hood or Fort Polk (01:19:52)
o He had heard a lot of bad things at Fort Polk so he went to Fort Hood
(01:20:23)
At Fort Hood he became a part of the 110th Aviation (01:20:34)
o He worked with helicopters in this unit
When he would have to set up a field site, he would be flown to the site instead of
driving
He remained at Fort Hood for three years (01:21:10)
He then received orders to go to Korea for a one year tour (01:21:21)
o His wife stayed at Fort Hood
In Korea he was stationed in Yongju-gol, Korea (01:21:35)
He was an E-7 so he ran the mess hall and never had to cook
He felt that Korea was beautiful and cold
He was able to have a lot of contact with Koreans (01:22:36)
o Nearly all of the Koreans spoke English
Sunday was his one day off every week
He went to Seoul, Korea for a couple of times (01:23:19)
After Yongju-gol, Korea, he was moved to a base at Uijeongbu, Korea (01:23:39)
o Every Sunday off he would go to Seoul to eat at McDonalds, KFC, or
Dunkin Donuts (01:23:58)
His time in Uijeongbu was much safer than at Yongju-gol
The Koreans loved the Americans as long as they were spending money
(01:25:10)
He was able to call home once a week
He was in Korea from 1985-1986
In Germany there were ammo bunkers in Denmark that they worked to protect
from the Russians (01:27:48)
There was a sense that there were still dangers and security was very important
Some of the American tanks were shot at by the East Germans (01:28:34)
After his overseas tours, he returned to Fort Hood (01:29:16)
o He was placed into the 3rd Signal Brigade (01:29:18)
He worked with nearly eighty cooks in the mess hall (01:29:37)
He ran shifts and towards the end he was the training NCO and maintenance NCO
(01:29:52)
He finished out his Army career in this position
Retirement – (01:30:36)
· He retired from the military in 1990 (01:30:37)
�· He went on convalescent leave in the summer of 1990 because he tore his
meniscus
· He took this time to look for jobs, find a home, etc.
· During this time a start-up company named Micron were hiring so he took in an
application (01:31:16)
o He found a house during this time
· Micron offered him a job (01:32:29)
o He worked as a machine operator making computer memory chips
o He stayed with the company for nearly seventeen years (01:32:58)
o He was laid off from Micron in 2008 (01:33:44)
· He then received an interview EDS (Electronic Data System) and was offered the
job
o He worked for them for two and a half years until it was bought out by
Hewlett-Packard (HP) (01:34:52)
o When HP took over his scores dropped with their system
§ He was then fired from the company (01:35:50)
· He then applied for unemployment and received it
· He got a job with the U.S. Census (01:37:10)
· He still collects his military pension
· The military food remained primarily the same during his twenty-three years of
service (01:37:43)
· His sole goal was to receive his retirement (01:40:11)
· He found a way to work with all kinds of people
· When the war in Iraq started, he was told that he was going to go to Iraq, but he
said no
o He did not place an extension for his service
· He never received his medal for retiring (01:43:02)
o They refused to give him his medal because he refused to go to Iraq
· His highest medal is the Bronze Star (01:43:44)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Critchlow, Anthony (Interview outline and video), 2012
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Critchlow, Anthony
Description
An account of the resource
Anthony Critchlow was born in Boise, Idaho in 1948. When he was nineteen years old he decided to enlist in November of 1967 as a cook in the military. He went to basic training at Fort Lewis, Washington for eight weeks before going to Fort Lee, Virginia for another eight weeks of Advanced Individual Training. Anthony was then assigned to Frankfurt, Germany but was eventually sent to Verona, Italy where he remained for one year. He volunteered to serve in Vietnam and, after addition training at Fort Lewis, he was sent to Cam Ranh Bay, Vietnam. Anthony was sent to Fort Evans until he volunteered to serve as a replacement for Firebases. He initially served at Firebase Blaze until he was sent through Firebase Bastogne and Firebase Birmingham. His final Firebase came in May of 1970 when he was sent to Firebase Ripcord. He worked in a small field Kitchen at Firebase Ripcord until he was sent home. He re-enlisted three years later and stayed in the Army until 1990, serving in Germany, Denmark and Korea, as well as at Fort Hood, Texas.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-10-03
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
CritchlowA1458V
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/998dd80c9c7787de011b8b2ef3270207.mp4
c9bac4dc9c8348e4187e48eeea95fbc5
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0454662fdcf15d6aee597880ab741372.pdf
2d3eba0957bf3e5b80242109a23b7d40
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
War on Terror--USS Cole
James Croft
Length of interview (26:46)
(0:25) Background
Born in Gainesville, Florida on November 29, 1977 (0:27)
Graduated from high school in 1996 played sports and was in band (0:35)
Decided he wanted to join the military during his senior year of high school (1:02)
First looked at Air Force; didn’t have the job he wanted so joined the Navy (1:22)
(1:29) Training
Went to basic training in Great Lakes, Illinois (1:45)
Did a lot of physical and mental training and learned about history of Navy (1:50)
The training course lasted for about eight weeks (2:01)
Stayed in Great Lakes and received additional training in electronics (2:15)
Lived on base until able to bring family then lived off base (2:41)
Orders were chosen based on grades and class rank (3:00)
Chose orders to go to Norfolk Naval Base in Virginia (3:33)
(3:45) Active Duty
Assigned to work on the USS Cole (DDG-67) (3:51)
First impression of the ship was amazement at the size and complexity (4:21)
Duties included ship maintenance cleaning of the ship (4:30)
Once he finished his tasks he was pretty much done for the day (4:45)
Guided Missile Destroyer; carried lots of firepower and had many guns (5:30)
Ship was able to carry 90 missiles, not including torpedoes (6:00)
Never had to fire missiles on enemy, but did missile training (6:47)
Ship went to Caribbean, Europe, and Middle East; Spain was his favorite (7:04)
Sometimes allowed to leave the ship and visit locations (7:30)
Did not interact with locals very much; mostly restaurant employees (7:50)
(8:00) Attack
Ship went to Yemen for refueling to boost their economy (8:06)
While in port the ship was torpedoed by an Al-Qaeda ship [attacked by bombers in a
small boat] (8:40)
Sailors beneath the deck thought that there was a fueling explosion (8:53)
Smaller boats around ship were collecting trash and were all authorized (9:25)
He was sleeping during the attack and immediately knew something was up (9:45)
Ship was hit near the galley and officer quarters; those areas became flooded (10:28)
Attack took out major communications lines and caused significant damage (10:45)
All the training paid off; everybody knew what to do immediately (11:15)
Repairs were made; sailors had to stand watch to make sure repair stayed (11:56)
Once the repair shafts broke the ship was in danger of sinking (12:12)
�Felt that all the training had prepared crew adequately for the situation (13:03)
Ship’s commander was the fall guy; didn’t think that this was fair (13:15)
Crew stayed on the ship for about 3 weeks after bombing (13:30)
Ship stayed in the harbor until Navy decided how to transport it back home (14:06)
Used a semi-submersible ship to go under wrecked battleship (14:27)
Crew moved to another ship to get hot showers and food (15:36)
Sent to army base in desert before flying to Germany then back home (15:37)
While ship was being repaired; in charge of monitoring contractors (16:25)
It took about 14 months for the ship to be repaired (17:16)
(17:20) Next Assignment
Got temporary assignment in Norfolk, Virginia transporting prisoners (17:25)
Next worked security for a company that overlooked ship repairs (17:49)
Main duty was night security and transporting prisoners from brig (18:34)
Worked with this job until he got out of the Navy (18:45)
Thought about making the Navy a career but his wife was against it (19:00)
5 million dollar reward offered for capturing the ship’s attackers (19:12)
(19:15) Post Service
10th anniversary of USS Cole’s bombing in coming up (19:20)
Receives email every time the USS Cole is mentioned in the news (19:48)
He is going to try to make it to the 10 year reunion in Norfolk, Virginia (19:50)
Thinks the navy definitely was positive influence on his life (20:05)
Military and electronic knowledge helped him get his current job (20:07)
Completed a six year tour learning interior electronics (20:35)
Moved back home to Gainesville, Florida after being discharged (22:10)
Works in a manufacturing company testing MRI machine parts (24:32)
While repairing an MRI machine discovered he had brain tumor (25:40)
Had tumor removed and went back to work (25:45)
Currently going to school for a business degree; plans on getting masters (25:50)
Encourages all young men to join the service (26:20)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Croft, James (Interview outline and video), 2012
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Croft, James
Description
An account of the resource
James Croft was born in Gainesville, Florida, in 1977 and enlisted in the Navy after high school in 1996. He was assigned to the guided missile destroyer USS Cole and sailed with her to the Mediterranean. The ship then went on to Yemen, and was attacked by Al Qaeda bombers there. He remained assigned to the ship while it was under repair, and completed his enlistment at Norfolk, Virginia.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Snyder, Elaine (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-04-11
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
CroftJ1559V
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/25a34507c1ce9da731c7419251690859.pdf
17248a8ef004197bc13074555b8a720f
PDF Text
Text
Speaking Out
Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories
Interviewee: Ryan Cronk
Interviewers: Kalle Tucker, Rachael Berkenpas, and Tyler Nowak
Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 12/2/2011
Biography and Description
Ryan Cronk is a student at Grand Valley State University, double majoring in Accounting and
Economics. Ryan is an active member of the LGBT community as well as the Delta Upsilon
fraternity. Ryan passionately works to educate others on LGBT issues within the Grand Valley
community. He discusses religion and what it is like to be a gay male at Grand Valley State
University.
Transcript
CRONK: Ok, so …we were talking about religion. Anyways, I was raised with a couple of
religions. , I actually went to a Baptist church at one point. , I went to like a Christian church,
and we went to…I don’t know what you would call it…it was Christian, but it was just off like, I
don’t know. Maybe it was just a different style because it wasn’t like, go sit in pews, and get
like, talked at, it was called …Resurrection Life Church. So it’s like, it’s more of a modern type
church. I mean, they had an on-stage band that used like guitars and drums and all that. Yeah, I
mean it was like Christian based but it wasn’t like what I would think of as a “traditional” church
where we went to like a Baptist church then a traditional Christian church then we went to
Resurrection Life. , so anyway, and we had it with those…we had some bad things happen like
my mom, when she was going through a divorce with my biological dad was actually why we
got kicked out of the Baptist church because they don’t believe, , in divorce. Or at least that
particular church didn’t believe in divorce unless it was the man leaving the woman. They
believed that the woman couldn’t leave the man. So anyway we got kicked out of that one. So
anyway, overall as a kid I never really like religion, I never really got exposed to, you know, the
good side of religion. , so then like, like growing up, you know, I started looking into for myself
and I decided that I wanted to give it a try again and it was actually last ser that I started going
to a church downtown called Saint Marks, and the reason I decided to try them out and like,
just open myself up to that again was because they actually display a LGBT flag on the side of
their church. , and they are open and completely welcoming to all people. It’s not like “you
have to fit our, you know, particular view”, and even though they have , their roots specifically
Page 1
�in Catholicism and all that, they think that religion is meant for everybody and it’s not like you
have to fit perfectly in line with what this says in order to believe it. So, and I found that great
because I’m one of the people where I can believe in something, even it’s not 100% what I am,
type thing. Like for me, I have a lot of values that fall in line, like, with Christianity and
Catholicism. So, I mean, like, sex before marriage, I really don’t like that idea so stuff like that.
So I mean it was just nice for me to find a healthy outlet to be able to just go and see other
people who thought that way too and then hear them say, “you know, we’re absolutely fine
with that, we’re glad that you, you know, were able to find us and have a place to come and not
feel discriminated against” or you know, like, having that feeling of really, that really awkward
feeling I guess of like, when you go into a church and it’s like “oh I believe this, this, and this and
that’s fine, but then they’re like, and we hate gays.” So then you’re like “oh, hey everybody…”
type thing. So, you know, I just didn’t have that feeling, so yeah, I think I am on a really good
level with religion right now. , unfortunately my step dad has used religion has a weapon
against me because he is 7th Day Adventist and the way I classify them is they are kinda halfway
between Judaism and Christianity, so they do a lot of things like oh you can’t eat pork and I’m
like well…I eat ham so ok, not gonna work with this religion right away. , and they have really
anti-gay views and stuff like that so he uses that, he is at this highest religious point when he
tries to discriminate against people like, he’s willing to use any religious excuse to say that
person is horrible, unless its him. Then everything is fine. So, if I had just been going off his
example, I would have hated religion but since I found it for myself, and something I agree with,
over all I am on a good level with religion. I respect people that have strong religious beliefs
even if, you know, that they don’t like me because I am glad they have something to believe in.
Unfortunately I wish they could see people for the…persons…that they are. Sorry, sometimes
my English and grammar suck when I try to make up words, but I wish they would just see
people’s sides of it that yes, you can have your beliefs about what I do is wrong, but you
shouldn’t hate me as a person. , so, that’s one of the reasons I was so scared in high school
because we have more churches than restaurants, so, it was kinda scary the idea that all my
friends would be more on the religious side rather than the person side. So yeah.
BERKENPAS: When you came to Grand Valley, what kinds of things did you get involved in?
CRONK: Let’s see, freshman year I actually moved into one of the traditional dorms called
Copeland Living Center. So, I actually, the first thing I got involved with was my Community
Council because I was in Student Council in high school, and in middle school, so to me that was
like, the most close thing so I just kinda wanted that safe feeling of something familiar, but I
also get involved with the LGBT Center right away, my first week of classes actually, I went in
and at that point, you were still able to just go in and sit and hang out in the Center but they
changed their policy on that just because, , they wanted to become more a professional office
where people could come with problems rather than just a ton of people hanging out in there. ,
Page 2
�so anyway, I started hanging out at the LGBT Center as much as possible because it was just
nice to have that feeling of oh, I don’t have to care at all in here. , I also got involved with the
group Out and About which is kinda like the GSA here and its open to LGBT students as well as
its allies. It’s a social group, their actually the ones who put on the drag show like two weeks
ago. , they also do the coming out event around the clock tower where you can like, sign the big
door. So yeah, they do a lot of stuff like that, like social things on campus. They’re not really
activist related; at least I didn’t think so. But, I mean, I had a lot of fun in there. It wasn’t exactly
what I was looking for out of my college experience just because a lot of the people in there,
not to say they were bad people but like I said earlier, a lot of them just have more bitter views
towards the, you know, straight community or people who don’t accept the LGBT community.
I’m not, I’m not looking to hate people about it, it’s like, you know, I find it unfortunate that
they feel that way but I just want to do everything I can to just, be nice to them and accept
them, where, some of them had views like it’s us against them. That’s the problem, it’s like we
can’t have that on both sides. So anyways, I just kinda distanced myself from groups like that or
people like that just because, you know, that not what I wanted, that s not how I felt. But I did
end up getting involved with the Residence Housing Association, which, I worked with people
from all housing areas on campus to put on events and then I, later got involved with Greek
Life. I mean, I just found a lot of good outlets for the different things. I mean, through Greek
Life I have kinda been able to help with LGBT things too because I mean, through my own
fraternity, , I’m actually the one to give the LGBT speech or whatever because , our
headquarters says we have to have a meeting based on LGBT civil rights or whatever. It’s not
anything big or fancy; it’s just kinda like terminology and stuff like that. So yeah, anyway, Grand
Valley just offered so many like new things for me to do and new ways for me to express myself
that I tried to take as most advantage of that as possible, especially right away.
TUCKER: So how was it joining a frat, because everybody has that stereotypical idea, even if
Grand Valley isn’t like that at all?
CRONK: Well first of all, I joined a fraternity. I did not join a frat. So that’s something that
personally, I have really strong views on because frat is the stereotype. Unfortunately we do
have a frat or two on campus but, I am part of a fraternity. But yeah, it was really weird because
I believed a lot of the stereotypes going in and I was scared because I thought stuff like hazing
and you know, paddling and abuse, and stuff like that, I was worried that was going to happen
especially if they found out I was gay. So, when I actually started rushing freshman year, I didn’t
bring out, I didn’t deny the fact I was gay, but I definitely didn’t bring out that fact that I was.
So, I mean, clearly if someone asked me I would say yes, but if no one asked I didn’t say
anything. , and then I found out that’s not what it’s like here at all. , I mean Grand Valley with
their strong anti-hazing policies, I mean that clears up 50% of the stereotypes like you know,
things that I was scared about right there. , I thought they were going to be very close-minded
Page 3
�in the way that, you know, it’s a bunch of straight guys that are testosterone driven, you know,
sports, that’s it…type thing. , that wasn’t it at all. I mean I found a place, like with the one I
ended up joining, I found a place where it’s like I haven’t played a sport since I joined. I think I
participated in one game of ultimate Frisbee before I was like ok that was fun, time to be done.
, I mean, in my own fraternity there’s 3 other gay guys so there are a few of us. We’re not a
huge number, but our brothers do accept us. When it comes to things like our formals, one of
my brothers who is gay ended up bringing a guy as a date and I mean everyone was fine with
that. I ended up bringing a guy as a date, and they all treated him just as fine. It’s not like, you
know, do you see who he brought? They didn’t care. We were all there to have fun and it was,
you know, a date event so they are all very accepting. I mean we, the way my fraternity formed,
we actually started it here on campus, Delta Upsilon, wasn’t here until the first semester of my
freshman year. So, we ended up, just kinda being thrown together. With some of the
fraternities, they are so well established that, you know, they have a mold, and they only recruit
people who fit that exact mold, where as for us we were so far out of a mold, like we had
people who were at so completely different ends of the spectrum. Like we had really
conservative people and some really liberal, so we all kinda got mashed together. We, actually
had one brother, I won’t say his name, but he was very against like, you know, gays. He had
that view of they are horrible people and they are going to hell, type thing and now just to see
the progress he has made after getting to know us, it’s like he has really done a 180. Not that he
is like, an ally in the sense that he like, loves gay people and wants to be surrounded by them,
but when it comes to us he is not as anti-gay people. So yeah, a lot of things I think I was
worried about joining a fraternity and I think things people, , kinda expect that fraternities are
going to do like oh, they’re going to hate their gay members, they’re gonna single them out,
they’re gonna haze them extra just because whatever, none of that happens. Especially here at
Grand Valley, not that I have become aware of anyways and it’s definitely not what I went
through. I was very glad to have that, I think I’ve had a great experience and with things like
Greek Allies and Advocates that they started now, I mean, they’re just really proving that
Grand Valley is a safe place, but also the Greek system is a great place to be yourself. So, I got
really fortunate with that overall.
[Long Pause]
CRONK: I have a question for myself that might help you guys out, how’s that?
[Laughter from Group]
CRONK: Ok one of things I do get asked is, like when did you know? , like how early or
whatever. And, my response to that usually is, because people get it in their mind that either
you wake up one morning and all of the sudden it’s like oh my God, I’m gay, I’m gonna be gay
now…or, like you’ve known forever and you’ve just been hiding it forever. I’m neither one of
Page 4
�those. , like, when I was little, when I say little I mean like 6 or something like that…, is the first
memory I have of any, anything to indicate my orientation at the time. It didn’t mean anything
to me but looking back I’m like “Oh, well…I wish I had understood what they meant”, you know,
way back when because I have an older sister that would let me play with her Barbie dolls.
Well, I used to like her Barbie dolls more than she did…like completely, and I used to wanna
play with the Barbie herself, and you know, dress her up and all that and my sister kinda didn’t
care, like she used to wanna make them fight and stuff. She did a re-enactment of the Real
World with Barbie and she made them smack each other and it was like oh, that’s weird but I
always wanted to dress them up. , so I mean that didn’t mean anything at the time because you
know, I was six and I could play with Barbies if I wanted to, it didn’t matter. But…then I used to
just notice, like even at that age I would notice men and like, you know, males more than I
would women. You know, at that age I never had any inclination towards women but like,
maybe it was because I was a guy I just noticed, like you know, males more in terms of idols or,
you know, the shows I watched, I don’t know. At that time again it’s almost like, you know,
normal child whatever. , then when I got to the age of 10, maybe 11, …I hadn’t started
developed feelings for girls yet. , you know, people at that time had started like dating and I
just, wasn’t interested in that. I really didn’t understand why you’d wanna have a girlfriend or
anything like that. So… I started to realize that just wasn’t normal because everyone would tell
me it wasn’t normal like oh, you know, you’re not developing feelings for women. You know,
13, when my hormones were supposed to be raging and I was supposed to being going gaga
over girls and trying to impress them, I just thought I really don’t care, I don’t see what the big
deal is. It really wasn’t until I was about 13 or 14 I finally learned what gay was. For me, up until
that boy me being more attracted to men was just a feeling but it didn’t have a term, or like a
concept behind it…it was just something I felt. It wasn’t until…actually I think it was on TV and
they were talking about, something like, gay rights and it was some kind of talking about
marriage and you know, men marrying men, and I could relate the idea of marriage like “Oh, a
man and a woman love each other they get married and that’s what you call a family.” Then I
heard about marriage between two men and they called that gay, and I was like “Oh, well…I
eventually want to get married to a man, so wait, what’s gay?” So, one day I went online and
looked up gay and of course, Google or whatever search engine, brought up a ton of porn sites
and I didn’t really know what that was so I went down and somehow I eventually found out, I
think I ended up Webstering gay men and I still had, you know at 13, no idea what that meant. ,
but it just kinda attached a label to it…so, that was really my first exposure to what gay was. I
went from being, you know, a normal kid that had feelings to who I was attracted to, to a kid
that was gay and attracted to men, type thing. So, you know, that’s weird I kinda stopped being
innocent on the idea of, you know, what LGBT is and all that and kinda of, moving into more
14/15 is when I was really getting ready to come out because it was really starting to build up
like that’s who I really was, like I could identify my own feelings and I was starting to relate to
Page 5
�them, finally. So that’s when I like, truly became a gay male more or less, because I had started
to accept myself for that.
[Ryan laughs]
Ryan continues:
And then I hit like, 16, when I came out. I actually came out as a bi-sexual.
I talked to my mom like “Listen, I’m gay but I’m actually like, bi.” because I wanted to be at least
bi, because it was like if I can’t be straight then at least let me be bi because, like, I can try to fit
in by dating girls and stuff like that and…that was a complete like, kinda wish I had but then I
realized I was gay. I didn’t like both, I just liked men so that was kinda like, that was kinda the
transition I went through…”I’m not straight, maybe I’m bi, no I’m gay.” type thing.
TUCKER: So how active are you? Like, with your rights and stuff, do you…I don’t know how to
say what I’m thinking I guess…
CRONK: Do I march in parades and wave rainbow flags?
TUCKER: Yeah, well…you know what I mean, not to be stereotypical…
CRONK: No, I know exactly what you mean. That’s …I’m really not, actually… to be honest, I’m
just not an activist in general with like, anything. For me, the way I…promote my rights and the
way I try to like, bridge that gap of inequality is by doing stuff like this. I try to sit down with
people and just say “Listen, this is who I am, I’m really not any different from you…” well
compared to you guys I guess I am…
[Laughter from Group]
Ryan continues: “I’m not really any different from you…I like men, I go to school, you know, I
work, you know…” stuff like that, it’s like, I’m a normal person, I just happen to be a male that
likes men. That’s a very small piece of who I am, but people like look at that like “Oh my God,
that’s your entire life.” No, it’s not. So, …that’s really where I would consider myself an activist
for gay rights is I try to break the stereotypes on a one-on-one basis with people and like, just
because I’m gay doesn’t mean I have a lisp, doesn’t mean that I, you know, that I dress like a girl
or really stylish, it’s like, I shop at Meijer, you know, I shop at American Eagle if I can afford
it…which I can’t, so it’s like, you know, I’m not top of the line, I don’t ever see myself being a
Lady Gaga…whatever, so you know, I like her music but I really prefer country so it’s like, all the
things that people say “Oh you’re gay so you like…” I’m like “No, sorry.”
[Laughter from Group]
Ryan continues: So yeah, it’s like…I’m not really an activist but I try to, I try to just be real with
people and hope that that will have the same affect because I think that “kill them with
Page 6
�kindness” is way better than shoving my views in someone else’s face and saying “now
change”.
TUCKER: So maybe on like, the smallest scale…like, more individual level?
CRONK: Yeah, I’m the smallest scale activist you’ll ever see. But I think I am one of the most
effective, I would hope because like, I mean, I’ve seen with a lot of my friends, like, they think
they don’t like gay people and they meet one and they’re like “Oh, you’re a real person…ok, I
like gay people now.”. It’s like “There you go, see? That’s all it took.” So instead of like, the big
parades…I mean, that’s great, I’m not against it, but I don’t need that to be proud of who I am,
you know, my orientation and what I’ve been through, …but I’m sure some people do and if
that’s how they find it best to, you know, try to make a change in the world, I want them to go
for it, but you won’t see me doing that.
[Ryan laughs]
NOWAK: Do you think that like, the parades are effective in getting the point out? That’s it’s not
really a bad thing? To be gay?
[Ryan hesitates]
Ryan he: I almost want to say no, and hopefully anyone that hears or reads this will not take
offensive to that, just because …just like with any parade, you go out to a parade because you
already believe in it or you already support it. You don’t really go out to a parade to have your
mind changed politically, socially, whatever. So, I mean, it’s great that they’re making an
appearance and saying, “Listen, this issue is very real, you know, you can’t say they are no gay
people in Michigan because we’re here and there’s no gay people in the U.S., no, we’re here
and you know, we are a thriving community and we are a culture.” However, I think some
people over do it and I think some people try to use those as a tool to like, put their views on
other people and that’s kinda, shooting itself in the foot just because if you’re forcing someone
to think a way, they’re going to resist it. I mean, I went through it where people were trying to
force the heterosexual lifestyle on me and I was like “No.” I was resistant to it and I didn’t want
that and , I think that stuff like, you know, the gay pride parades, even some of just making
people, you know, look at certain posters every day, I mean, to me that can be overstepping a
boundary and like, putting your views on someone else. Why would we want to do that when
we’re trying to fight it ourselves? So, I mean, I know they have a place and they are good, but
sometimes to me they can get over the top. Like, what people try to do with them and what
people try to show with them. I don’t know; personal view.
[Ryan laughs]
Page 7
�TUCKER: Do you ever see like, a changing coming? Because you said there is bias like both ways,
like the gay community kinda resents the straight community for like, resenting them and it just
sounds like a vicious cycle. Do you ever see a change?
[Ryan sighs and pauses]
CRONK: I would hope that there will be someday where like, the middle is just met by everyone
and like, one day both sides will just…
[Ryan sighs again]
CRONK: I hate to say it this way so just completely understand what I’m about to say. It’s like, I
think if one side, like the more hetero side in general would kinda lower their guard and be like,
less outspoken, then I think the LGBT community could meet them by lowering theirs and then,
you know. BUT, that’s not to say that, it’s…the heterosexual community’s fault that we resent
them, have something against them, you know, because it’s not. There’s just as many accepting
hetero people that get discriminated against by the LGBT community I’m sure, as there is the
other way around. Just because, I mean…people are going to believe what they want to and
they’re going to think what they want to based off from how they were raised. So, I think that,
if everything works out perfect, I think someday compromise will be reached where everyone is
going to realize that it’s like, we’re all just trying to live a life that’s fulfilling, you know, and
whatever that means, I mean if that means getting married, I think that someday, you should
be able to get married no matter who you are. But I also think that, you know, if you don’t want
to, because like, that’s where the thing that bugs me too is that, people automatically assume
that every gay person wants to get married and that’s our top issue. It’s like, I personally do
want to get married someday, but that’s not the top thing I think about when I wake up is, “Oh,
I’m gonna try to get gay marriage, you know, to be accepted because I want to get married
someday.” It’s like, well it would be really nice, but I could live without it. At least right now I
think I could live without it, …but anyway. I mean, I think someday there will be a compromise,
and I think people will just realize that we’re all the same and we just need to accept that from
now on. So, and maybe, who knows, you know a lot of the studies that we talked about in Milt’s
class actually show that our generation is way more accepting than our parents were and they
were way more accepting than their parents were, so it’s like, as long as that trend continues, I
think that we’re all going to be happy in the future someday. So, I mean there will always be
that small pocket that don’t, and there’s always going to be that small pocket of people who
don’t like those people for that reason, but in general I think, you know, it’s gonna go down
more and more, I mean it has been for generations. So, I hope at least.
[Ryan laughs]
Page 8
�NOWAK: I feel like you just keep answering my questions. I make a question in my head and
then you answer it.
[Laughter from Group]
TUCKER: I know, I was so gonna ask like, “Oh, do you think it’s like, decreasing by generation?”
[Ryan jokes]
CRONK: Yeah, I’ve done this a time or two.
[More laughter from Group]
CRONK: How about another question for myself? Okay!
[Group laughs again]
CRONK: Like, just kinda, what are my plans for the future? Like, right now its fine that I’m doing
all of this stuff in college but where do I see this taking me? Or how do I feel like I’m going to
react once I’m out in the real world? Alright, well! To answer that question…
[Laughter from Group]
CRONK: Ok. Alright well Here’s what I think is. Well I’m really not sure at least this semester I’m
trying to make it through college and really the rest of my life will happen but so far I want to
go into the peace corp. because in my life I feel like I’ve been given a lot just like you know I’ve
gotten a lot of opportunity in my life and I want to go give back as much as possible and
through the peace corps. I can do that. It’s been something I’ve aspired to do since I was in high
school and after that I either want to stay in a foreign country like I’ve always, It’s always kind
of been my plan to move out of the United States because of the policy that you know is I can’t
get married unless I stay and live in Massachusetts and you know a couple of other states, but
it’s like when I can only be legally married in four states or something like that it’s not the right
county for me type thing. I eventually want to move and live in a foreigner nation full time, not
sure which one yet just because I kind of want to see where life take me. You know how I like
things, and I may go into the Peace Corps and find out the United States is awesome and that I
just want to stay here forever and if I were to stay in the US I’d probably wind up on the East
Coast just because I mean I’ve been to Washington D.C. before. It’s like I haven’t really visited
the West Coast too much and I don’t know much about the West Coast, But I love the like
history of the East Coast with all the colonial you know heritage it has. I’d probably wind up
there because I know that I could be happy there and there is a lot of things there that I could
enjoy so yeah. That and I don’t ever intend on one day being a huge activist. I don’t plan on
someday growing up and leading one of the parades or anything, but I just hope someday to
always be someone others can come to like to find out more like in a business someday
Page 9
�whether I run a business because I’m kind of considering into looking into that still or whether I
just work for a business I want to be involved somehow in like the HR side where I could be I
don’t know one of the people in the office that is open to work issues related to the LGBT
community because at least here in Michigan there is not many I think Grand Valley is one of
the few actually public universities that embraces LGBT community in the way of that they have
the equal partner rights or partner benefits or whatever. , but it seems like Grand Rapids
actually do have city things on the book that make it so businesses don’t necessarily have to
keep LGBT people but overall it’s not a reason that they would necessarily fire you I mean not
every single one, but there are a good number of them so that’s encouraging. So anyway I
would want to be someone in a business like that. That just can help relate between maybe
people who don’t understand why this is a problem in the workplace to those who are like
going through it and kind of facing that. So I don’t plan on making a career out of being gay, but
hopefully I could use it to help my future career so.
NOWAK: Do you think that like Grand Valley and like Grand Rapids in general like accepts like in
the workplace a lot of that stuff? Are they getting better?
CRONK: I say Grand Valley is definitely like I am completely on the Grand Valley bandwagon
when it comes to like equal rights for people of all gender and ethnicities stuff like that. There
amazing. Grand Rapids I haven’t had much experience like I lived in the bubble of Coopersville
so and then I’ve kind of lived in the bubble of Grand Valley, but when I lived in Grand Rapids
this ser I did apply for jobs and I didn’t hide the fact that I was gay and I ended up not getting
hired at them. So I mean, not to say the oh I applied for this job and I didn’t get it because I was
gay but it’s like “Oh maybe that’s just you know not as good that I was willing to say that you
know to them,” but if I don’t get a job because I am gay I am completely ok with that. I mean
that’s not something that should determine like with fuel me being gay doesn’t affect how the
sandwiches I make turn out. I mean it means nothing like maybe if I was working in, I don’t even
know what that would affect. I can’t even think of a job that that would influence my
performance. So anyway, so but I mean with the night life I mean with the couple of gay clubs
in Grand Rapids and just the fact there aren’t a lot of bias incidents that I’ve heard that have
happened in the Grand Rapids area where a homosexual person being beaten in the street or
something like that. I mean, it makes me really comfortable with being gay you know even in
the Grand Rapids area and with such the Hipster you know trend that’s coming out in Grand
Rapids I means there’s more people that are not caring on a like community basis so I mean
coffee shops, it doesn’t matter who goes to it, you’re going to have a good time. (Whispering)
NOWAK: going back to like you wanting to go to the Peace Corps do you worry a lot about your
mom like leaving or do you just feel like you just need to progress?
Page
10
�CRONK: I do, this is actually the first year I have lived outside the home with from the family, I
actually live in a house here in Allendale now, and it’s like yeah I worry she’s still- has medical
problems that I found out like yesterday she had three seizures in one day and that was like 3
or 4 weeks ago and I am just finding out about it. So it’s like stuff like that worries me and I do
spend time like thinking about whether I made the right decision leaving, but I completely
believe in my independence because I want to take care of her but at the same time I have
obligations to myself that I have to kind of fulfill. Because like living at home I would go to class
and then I would go home, and then I might do a few of my fraternity activities, but that was
mainly it, I wasn’t able to like spend, I wouldn’t be able to go out all weekend and stay with
friends. It would be I’d have to come home because mommy and daddy are still you know
checking on you and stuff like that wondering where you are. I didn’t have a car, so I would
borrow my moms, so there was that and so kind of like yeah I believe that I know I have a lot of
things that like between what- where I am now and where I want to go as a person, moving out
was a major step but yeah I still have that worry what happens I’m not there and what should I
be doing as a good son to like take care of that. Because I still believe in the old fashioned idea
of like the children should take care of their parents. Just like in general like I don’t like the idea
of retirement homes, like I wish that my family had been able to have like my grandma move in
with us and like stay with us because she could have taken care of us while my parents were at
work and stuff like that, but our society doesn’t necessarily believe that anymore so I’m kind of
stuck in the old fashion idea of it, but so but I see that eventually I do want my mom to move in
with me like when I’m older you know once a have an established job. I’ll probably be forty or
something before any of that can happen, but I do eventually intend on like at least my mom
moving back in with me when she gets older. It’s nice because I can go out and party and not
worry about it anymore. I finally enjoyed spending time with friends all weekend and not
worrying who I’m going home to at night because my roommates and all that are doing just as
much like they’re gone just as much as I am…
CRONK: Crazy roommates.
[Laughter from Group]
CRONK: Rachael, how has your stuff with relationships been working out?
Rachel: My what, oh, what?
CRONK: Dating.
Rachel: Yeah, How has relationships been working out for you?
CRONK: Well actually I have never had a gay relationship, and I’ve been out since junior year of
high school and it’s my junior year of college. Yeah anyway, that’s another thing that when it
comes to stereotypes is that “Oh, we’re whores” more or less like that’s one that I’ve heard
Page
11
�from my family there like “Oh, are you just going to sleep around?” Now I’m like “No, I still have
values.” , so yeah it’s like one of those stereotypes is that the LGBT community is just full of
whores and you know we don’t really care about having long term relationships we just kind of
want to have fun “Hit it and quit it” you know whole thing. That is not what I believe at all, and I
always like- it kind of sickens me the idea of “hit it and quit it” it’s like sorry no that’s not what
I want for myself and that’s not what we want in general. , I do want to be in a relationship like
especially in college and that’s one of the things that has been challenging is even though I have
taken this whole process of coming out and like being comfortable with myself and I still
haven’t found that someone, and like everyone says “Oh yeah, first of all with high school is
where you know can learn about dating for the real world.” Well then when I came to college
everyone’s like “oh yeah, this is where you should be able to just you know date whatever and
if you break up with someone well it really won’t matter that much because there’s plenty of
other options.” And I’m like “Thanks. I love hearing that” because I haven’t dated anyone even
though I’m willing to it’s not like I’m sitting there reading a book saying all the time “oh no I just
don’t want to be in a relationship.” Like if I could get into a relationship right now I would.
Unfortunately it’s one of the struggles I face even here at Grand Valley is just the idea of there’s
still not a lot of opportunity. Like I came from a place where there was no opportunity for
dating and no there’s opportunity I just don’t get that opportunity to. So , and that has played a
big part in some of the struggles I’ve had a Grand Valley just because it kind of wears you down
at least for me because I am very social. I’m very much very much like- I’m vested in other
people and I just wish I had that one special person that was just kind of a relationship for me
where all the relationships I have right now are like friends, business or my business fraternity
like brothers, my social fraternity brothers, all that. It’s all things where I give 100% and I might
get something back. And I just want that feeling of always getting you know always getting
something back from someone else and not really having to try. So it’s like, that’s one of the
struggles that I would say I still face is just that feeling of I still feel like it kind of like it wasn’t
worth it coming out and all this because yeah I have good self-esteem now but I haven’t really
gotten everything I want out of it, and even though to me it feels like it should be a really small
thing to get back, it’s been a really big problem so I mean just that. I found here at Grand Valley
this is personal experience I sure if you talk to a million- you know or if you talk to every gay
person on campus it would be a different story, but for me it’s been because I didn’t date in
high school like men at least that people- other gay men here on the campus aren’t really open
to dating me just because I don’t have the experience or there’s the other half that because I’m
not a whore they don’t want to date me because they want whores to date more or less. So it’s
like it’s a really bad reflection on us because it’s like the people that do just sleep around
perpetuate the stereotype that all we do is just sleep around but unfortunately I’ve found here
you know that I fall in a really weird middle of, I haven’t really dated and slept around and
because I haven’t dated and slept around that people just don’t want to date me, and I’m like
Page
12
�“How does that work?” Like you would think somewhere there would be you know people that
would say “Wow, that’s really great I’m really happy about that,” but so far I haven’t found any.
TUCKER: So it’s not a matter of like meeting people like meeting other guys it’s just like more of
like your morals don’t match sometimes?
CRONK: Kind of. I guess I don’t know. I know a very small group of the gay community here at
Grand Valley just because the ones I met through the center and those were pretty much all of
those were the ones that were like angry more or less about what they’ve been through, and I
was like “Ok, so that kind of disqualifies all those people right there.” And then the Greek men
that I’ve met that are gay and yeah, there kind of the ones that are the whole they enjoy their
freedom, let’s just put it that way, more than so it’s not like I’ve met every gay person here on
campus, but the one’s I have, yeah, things just haven’t worked out. So , but with- I work
technically five jobs and all that so it’s like I don’t really have time to go out and meet
everybody, and the few sources I have found that kind of get my name out there are not exactly
the most respectable ones. So , I wish I could just meet people that are more like myself in the
way ones like you would never suspect are gay until you find out “Oh, they’re gay” type thing,
and I don’t get to meet a lot of people like that.
NOWAK: Do you think they are a lot of people who like struggle with that? Like just not like
obviously there’s not that many at Grand Valley because you haven’t found…
CRONK:
Yeah, I would think there are. I mean I would to think there’s a lot of
people kind of just like me except they’re not as vocal about you know about who they are. ,
where yeah, I mean they probably came from the same type of background, raised here
whether in Michigan or another form of the Bible Belt where it’s like they never got to
experience that before and even though they have the opportunity here I’m sure they have
friends who are really supportive of them, but just in general they still kind of keep to the idea
that it’s not accepted because everywhere but Grand Valley like Grand Valley is kind of a little
dot in the middle of a lot of hate, a lot of backwards policies. , so anyway, I’m sure they are
thinking long term like kept that to themselves, like self-preservation I would say, and that kind
of makes me sad because I know some- I know one person in particular where they’re kind of in
the denial phase that they’re still straight. Anyway, so high school, but.
[Laughter from Group]
CRONK:
Sorry, but anyway. They , it’s like that person in particular I wish they
would realize how ok it is to go through that process now because once they get out of here it’s
going to be twenty times harder. Like if it’s challenging now, it’s going to be even harder once
you get out there and you know you don’t have that small island that we have here of
acceptance and freedom to try- like because you know even that group out and about, I mean I
Page
13
�didn’t like it but I at least had the opportunity to try to be around like minded people, and you
know so, , I’ll be really sad if people don’t get to take advantage of that before they leave here,
and I mean I think it would be really hard to try to after seeing that even if they weren’t a part
of it to try to go through the process in a group of- area that is not accepting you know like it is
here.
NOWAK:
Do you think that it could be also that there are just like people who are
like on the fence kind of who don’t really want to come out and are just kind of timid about it?
Like
CRONK:
I’m sure there is a large population of that too. , I mean it’s a choice. For
me it was a choice that was a no brainer to make, but I am sure it was- there is a struggle for a
lot of people that, I mean you’re literally changing your life even though you’re not really
changing anything about yourself, you’re changing how other people are going to see you. , and
it’s something that I wish more people could relate to just the idea of, to a certain extent you
have to give up everything you know, everything you’re comfortable with. , because you really
do have to redefine everything you know when it comes to like, like how you act towards other
people may completely change, like how you’re willing to act towards other people. , so I
definitely remember and understand what it’s like to be one of those that- it’s just a struggle to
say “is it worth it? Should I?” because there is so much good that could come from it, but
there’s a lot of bad you have to acknowledge when making you know that choice of- because
when I say choice I don’t think being gay is a choice it’s acknowledging on a like external basis
that you’re gay is where the choice comes in. So, I was born gay or I was you know whatever.
On a fundamental human level I was always gay, and the reason I chose to be gay was because I
chose to let other people know. I didn’t choose to you know perpetuate the façade that I was
straight, and like I think a lot of people haven’t got to that point yet. You know, they’re not
comfortable enough; they don’t have enough incentive yet. I mean I know people who were
raise in an area that was actually accepting of gays, some of them still haven’t come out. They
have come out to a couple people, but they still haven’t come out in general. Just because
there is no incentive, people already accept who they are, gay or not. So they’re like “Why
should I come out when I’m not?” Where I felt like people weren’t accepting me for who I truly
was so for me the incentive was to come out and say “Well listen, you can take me or leave me
for who I actually am not who I’m pretending to be.” So I mean maybe some people just need
more incentive and maybe that’s- someday they’ll want a relationship and it’s like well now I
need to say you know “Oh, I’m gay. I’m going to date people now.” And when I say gay I kind of
incorporate LGBT with that. I’m sorry I’ve been using that over and over, but that’s the one I
relate to most, because I am. So, like yeah I’m kind of using gay as a blanket term for
homosexual. So anyway, sorry.
Page
14
�TUCKER:
You kind of touched on this, but like let’s say a student twenty years from
now. Is your biggest advice to get active and like not deny yourself like to get involved in groups
so you can be a part of it? Or what would you say? I know it’s a big question.
CRONK:
No I, yeah that’s great. I mean, if someone is listening to this twenty
years from now and having to decide whether to make that choice or not I would hope they’d
just decide to do what’s best for them because that’s you know I that’s really vague and it’s like
but it’s that’s the only way that we can do this. I’ve heard stories of people being forced to
come out. Like they’ve confided in someone and then that person spread it to like their entire
high school and so the person was forced, and that’s a horrible experience. I mean they were
completely crushed. They had to go to counseling for stuff like that. So I would never want to
be that way, but and I know some people wouldn’t be comfortable like me where it’s just like
“Oh, if you ask me I’m going to tell you the truth.” So, I mean just do what’s right for you. I
know at the beginning of my process I printed out pictures of men I found attractive and my
way of getting it back is I had a folder of these pictures underneath my bed, and that was
enough for a while for me because then I felt like “Oh, you know I can look at attractive men
without being weird,” you know like people seeing or whatever. , and if that’s enough for
people start with that, you know , start reading you know stories by gay authors with gay
characters. Watch Modern Family you know that has a gay couple and the daughter Willy. I
mean you know whatever, just small steps like that can make you feel better about yourself
and help you decide you know if you’re like ready. If you’re you know, if this is how you want to
go. Because I mean the gay lifestyle, I consider it- there to be a gay lifestyle. I know there’s
controversy that saying “You know, no there’s a human lifestyle, part of it just happens to be
gay.” To me there is a gay lifestyle; I mean we are our own culture. And I mean some people
may find it’s just not for them, I mean there are things that I know I don’t agree with you know
when it comes to like the practices of LGBT people and stuff like that. So it’s like maybe they’ll
just find out in general that they don’t want to be associated with that at all. You know if that’s
where their feelings are they may just find it’s easier and better for them like especially if they
are really religious and their religion really doesn’t support it. You know, I just hope they would
do what they feel is best because at the end of the day you have to make yourself happy. and
this is one of those things that you definitely have to be comfortable with yourself in order to
embrace it like in order to go through it because there is a lot of challenge that you have to get
over ii and sometimes like I would lay in bed at night and the only thing that like made it all
worth it was the thought that’s I’m finally doing what’s best for me, not for what’s necessarily
better for everyone else. So , Hopefully that answered it.
TUCKER:
Yeah
CRONK:
I’m Sorry.
Page
15
�TUCKER:
No, it’s ok.
CRONK:
mind.
Sometimes I feel like I talk in circles, but I swear it’s all irrelevant in my
[Laughter from Group]
TUCKER:
Is there anything we haven’t talked about yet that you want us to know,
want everyone to know I guess?
CRONK:
Not really, I mean I don’t know. It’s not like even though I’m gay and like
obviously I have the normal human desires. I want to date someone and stuff like that. It’s not
really something I think about on a daily basis anymore like when I was coming out it was. It
used to be a really big point in my life, but I mean since I’ve gone through the process and since
I consider myself growing up I mean I would hope I am always becoming more mature like
every day. , it’s just another piece of who I am. It’s not the whole puzzle. So , I just hope that
people get to see that. I hope more people get to understand that you know being gay is not a
bad thing. I mean, it has depending on your religion, depending on your raising it may not be
the best thing, but I don’t think I’m going to hell. You know, I think and if I am going to go to hell
it’s because I have done a lot of other things that are going to put me there. This isn’t one of
those things. , and hell, man if I go to hell for that I hope I get to date there I mean I won’t have
a problem meeting people. So, got to look for the silver lining in it. So I mean, you know
whatever , and I think I do enough good things on this earth, you know, to the god I know and
the god I believe in see’s that and you know puts it on a scale you know. So , I can’t think of
anything else.
NOWAK:
a half.
I don’t know if we have anything else to add. We’ve got like a house and
TUCKER:
Do you feel good about it?
CRONK:
I love it. I am glad you guys are doing this. I’m glad your teacher is getting
you guys involved because I mean I can’t speak from the heterosexual side, but I mean
hopefully you guys are at least learning something, getting a new prospective.
NOWAK:
Yeah.
TUCKER:
Yeah, definitely.
[Group discusses project technicalities]
Page
16
�CRONK:
Ok, cool. [Ryan laughs]. So no, I’m glad you guys are doing this it really
makes me feel good to like see that maybe so- and I like the idea that maybe I’m making a
difference for somebody someday somewhere, so. I like it, good ego boost for the day.
[Laughter from Group]
NOWAK:
Well thanks for sharing everything.
TUCKER:
Yeah, thank you.
CRONK:
Absolutely, thank you guys for having me.
END OF INTERVIEW
Page
17
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9287ae8463ff36b9929ea3d942fd506e.mp3
f1d07e747adb87cca5749ae00abdd331
Dublin Core
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Title
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Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories
Subject
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Civil rights--Michigan--History
Personal narratives
Oral histories
African Americans--Personal narratives
Gays--Personal narratives
Lesbians--Personal narratives
Bisexual people--Personal narratives
Transgender people--Personal narratives
Veterans--Personal narratives
Women--Personal narratives
People with disabilities--Personal narratives
Muslims--United States--Personal narratives
Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives
Homophobia
Discrimination
Islamophobia
Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.)
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012.
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies
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Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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2017-05-02
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
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eng
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GV248-01
Coverage
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1930-2011
Oral History
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GV248-01_Cronk_Ryan
Title
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Ryan Cronk audio interview and transcript
Creator
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Cronk, Ryan
Contributor
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Tucker, Kalle
Berkenpas, Rachael
Nowak, Tyler
Description
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Ryan Cronk is a student at Grand Valley State University, double majoring in Accounting and Economics. Ryan is an active member of the LGBT community as well as the Delta Upsilon fraternity. Ryan passionately works to educate others on LGBT issues within the Grand Valley community. He discusses religion and what it is like to be a gay male at Grand Valley State University.
Subject
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Civil rights--Michigan--History
Gays--Personal narratives
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Text
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
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Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project
Date
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2012-12-02
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2d0883bf6b478c24cd5870f8dba6485b.mp4
2f80e71d087f74dda18656674529c689
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/81c5a659e0bf19fa96dae6fb8ebbfc87.pdf
04c87de7566e60a9cc42bdb1f7955e08
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: William Crow
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interview length: 1:50:19
Interviewer: We are talking today with Bill Crow of Wichita, Kansas, and the interviewer
is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay,
Bill, start us off with some background on yourself. And to begin with, where and when
were you born?
Veteran: October 4th, 1927, in Butte, Montana.
Interviewer: Alright. And did you grow up there?
Veteran: No, we were there for about 2 years and then we moved to…Well, we moved to
Oklahoma first and then to Kansas.
Interviewer: Okay. And what kinds of things did your family do for a living when you were
a kid?
Veteran: I am sorry, I didn’t…?
Interviewer: What kind of job did your father have? Or…?
�2
Veteran: Well, my father was the reason we moved, because he worked for Safeway, and they
sent him to Oklahoma to work in a store and then brought him up to Wichita to manage a new
store that was at Main and Murdock.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And he was the manager of that new store.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, this is in the 1930s in the era of the Depression.
Veteran: Yes.
Interviewer: But was he still, you know, earning a reasonable living then for…?
Veteran: Well, then he bought half a share in a small grocery store. It’s a half a block from
Safeway. And eventually, he bought the meat department too. He bought that from a German
couple who had had a small grocery store there for years. Then he did that for a while. And of
course, I was the kid that got to change the sawdust in the meat department and oil the floors and
put the cans on the shelf and so on.
Interviewer: Okay. How many kids were in your family?
Veteran: My younger brother and myself.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: My younger brother was 8 years younger than me.
Interviewer: Wow. So, you got to do all the work?
Veteran: Yes. (00:02:14)
Interviewer: Alright. Now, and then how far did you go in school?
�3
Veteran: I just—I went about 2 weeks in the 10th grade. And that’s when I decided that I ought to
go in the Marine Corps.
Interviewer: Alright. Now before that, do you remember how you heard about Pearl
Harbor?
Veteran: That was on the radio.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright. And when you first heard the news, did you understand what that
meant?
Veteran: Not really. Not really. But other than the fact that it was war.
Interviewer: Now, before that, had you been paying any attention to the news in the world?
The war in Europe? That kind of thing?
Veteran: Well, you’d—you know, you’d see moving pictures and things like that, which gives
you rather a warped sense of what goes on.
Interviewer: So, you had like newsreels at the movie theater? That kind of thing?
Veteran: Yes. Right. Newsreels and newspapers and so forth.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you had some awareness of it. Okay, now, you were still pretty
young when the war started?
Veteran: Yes.
Interviewer: You were 14. Now, did you…What made you decide to enlist when you did?
�4
Veteran: Well, I was—I had a lot of wanderlust when I was a kid. I had run off from home about
3 times. The last time I run off, well, I hitchhiked a ride with the sheriff in Colorado, who
immediately took us to jail and called my father. And we come back home. My father was a
great man. I had all the admiration in the world for him. He could talk to me and get more out of
me than anyone. My mother would just hit me with whatever was handy, so…Which, I deserved
I know.
Interviewer: Alright. So, now you are 16 years old.
Veteran: I am sorry?
Interviewer: Now when you were 16, that’s when you actually enlisted.
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: Now, legally you couldn’t enlist until you were 17.
Veteran: That’s right.
Interviewer: So, how did you get into the Marine Corps? (00:04:35)
Veteran: I lied about my age, and I changed the date on a birth certificate that I had so that I was
17.
Interviewer: Okay. Now at that point, I mean, did your father sign for you?
Veteran: Yes, he did.
Interviewer: Okay. So, he was willing to send you on—
Veteran: Well, his last comment that I remember was he says, “At least I will know where you
are at.” Which, within 6 months’ time, he had no idea where I was at.
�5
Interviewer: Alright. So, roughly when was it—what time of year did you enlist? Do you
think it was late in ’43?
Veteran: Yeah, it was…Yeah, it would be late in ’43. I don’t remember just what date.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, what did they—so, where did you actually sign up? Where did
you enlist?
Veteran: Here in Wichita.
Interview: Okay, in Wichita. Okay. And then once you have signed up, what do they do
with you?
Veteran: They sent me to Kansas City to take a physical.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And went up there on the train and come back on the train. And waited to be called.
They called us very shortly. They put me on a train and sent me to San Diego.
Interviewer: Alright. Do you remember anything about that train ride?
Veteran: Oh yes. It was 3 days long and I never did get a seat. It was mostly stand-up time.
Interviewer: Okay. Did they feed you?
Veteran: Beg your pardon?
Interviewer: Did they have food for you? Was there a dining car?
Veteran: Yeah. Yeah, they had a dining car, but I don’t remember much about the food.
�6
Interviewer: Okay. Now, when you were traveling on the train…Let’s see, did they have—
do you remember if they had a steam engine? You know, like an old coal burning engine?
Or a diesel or…? (00:06:38)
Veteran: They had—I am sure they were burning coal.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Did you get to get off the train at all or were you just stuck on
it?
Veteran: No. No.
Interviewer: Okay. Now they get you to San Diego.
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: What kind of reception do you get at the training center?
Veteran: We get a drill sergeant that is standing there waiting for the train to come in. after
everybody got loaded out, why they lined everybody up and said, “Everybody that is going into
the Marine Corps, follow me.” And we did.
Interviewer: Now, at—was he yelling at you yet?
Veteran: I am sorry?
Interviewer: Did they—did he yell at you or was it just matter of fact?
Veteran: Well, they were very abrupt about everything.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright.
Veteran: Began to educate us real quick.
�7
Interviewer: Okay. So, what did the basic training consist of?
Veteran: We went to bootcamp for 7 weeks.
Interviewer: Yep.
Veteran: The first three weeks was drill, drill, drill, drill, drill, drill, drill, drill. The next three
weeks were bang, bang, bang on the rifle range for three weeks. And then one week back, we
were supposed to do slop chute duty, but we didn’t have to do that.
Interviewer: Slop chute duty?
Veteran: Yeah. Well…work in the galley.
Interviewer: Okay. So, KP, whatever.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: And then they assigned us to our training.
Interviewer: Okay. And then what kind of training did you get? (00:08:23)
Veteran: Well, I was promoted immediately to PFC. And I remained that for the rest of the war.
But I was sent to Camp Pendleton where we did combat training. We did a little bit of
everything. And then they sent me to…Well, we had that combat training and bayonet training
and grenade throwing and stuff like that. And running and jumping and the obstacle courses and
so on.
Interviewer: Okay. Did they have—
Veteran: And then we finished that up and we were sent to school.
�8
Interviewer: Okay. Now, while you were there, you were doing the training at Camp
Pendleton, did you have field exercises where you would be out overnight or anything like
that?
Veteran: Oh yeah. It was a little bit of everything.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. But then you get a more specialized school now?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: So, what was that?
Veteran: Well, that one—I went to school. They sent me to a communication school.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And what was it that they…
Interviewer: Did you—
Veteran: Well, we worked on semaphore… We worked on all kinds of communications.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Had a smattering of information on encoding.
Interviewer: So, did you learn Morse code? Did you have to learn that?
Veteran: No. No, I did not. We had—well, that is later on but—
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Okay. But so, were you learning how to operate a radio or how
to…? Or telephone?
Veteran: No. No, just basically messages and how to handle them and things like that.
�9
Interviewer: Alright. And do you have any idea why they picked you for that? (00:10:33)
Veteran: No, I don’t.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Other than I was just a dumb kid.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to life in the Marines?
I mean, you had been kind of independent.
Veteran: I had no problem with it because I wanted to be there.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: There were those that weren’t particularly happy about being there, which made it more
difficult. But I was fortunate enough to have some good drill instructors in bootcamp.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: They were not the mercenaries that occasionally some of the guys had. Because I can
recall seeing a DI being chased across the lawn at the end of a bayonet for bayonet practice
because the guy was mad at him, and he was going to get him. But there were some DIs that—
and our DIs were very strict but as long as you did what you were told to do, then you didn’t
have any trouble. But you didn’t question anything because they would march you off into the
ocean. They would, you know, tell you to get down in that mud and take you through a mess of
dirt and sand and so on and then give you about 15 minutes to get everything cleaned up. And if
you didn’t get them clean, I can remember one time we had all of our dungarees. And we had so
many minutes to get those clean. (00:12:24)
�10
Veteran: We had scrub brushes and a scrub board. And then after you got them all cleaned up,
why, we’d stand out and hold them out on our arms like this and DIs would come along and
inspect the clothes to see if they were clean. And if anybody’s weren’t clean, then he would just
say, “Drop your arms.” And the clothes would go on the ground, and he would march us back
and forth across the clothes a few times. Then he’d say, “Alright, now you’ve got 10 minutes to
get them clean.” It was, you know, that type of…It was not mean, but it was meaningful because
it was really training us to the point where we would act without thinking.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, do you know if your drill instructors were combat veterans?
Had they been to Guadalcanal or anything?
Veteran: Yes, one of them had. The other two, I don’t remember for sure. But the sergeant had,
and he was good. He was a good man. He was just doing his job, is what he was doing.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, as you are going through these different stages of training, are
they teaching you anything about the Japanese or what you might encounter when you go
out there? Or was this just all learn the procedures, follow the orders?
Veteran: Well, I think everybody was still thinking that all the Japanese were little bitty short
guys wearing the thick glasses and—which I found out later was not true.
Interviewer: Yeah. (00:14:12)
Veteran: Because the first unit we run into on Peleliu was Japanese Marines. You know, I think
the first dead one I saw looked like he was about 7 foot tall.
Interviewer: Alright. Okay, so do you have an idea of when did you finish that training?
Somewhere in ’44, I guess?
�11
Veteran: Yeah, we took the combat training and then our specialist training. And then they
formed our company up.
Interviewer: Okay. And—
Veteran: Which was the JASCO company.
Interviewer: Okay. Explain what a JASCO company is.
Veteran: We were a company that…Joint Assault Company that went in with the assault troops.
We had—and eventually, we got Navy radiomen in with us, plus our own radiomen. And we had
the Navy men were there primarily to call in the Naval gunfire. And there was an air unit that
was in that would call in airstrikes. And that was the job of our unit, was to do those kind of
things. And in conjunction with the assault troops.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, were you attached to a larger unit?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: So, what division—
Veteran: Yeah, we were attached to—that is, I was attached to the 1st Battalion, 3rd Regiment
with the 1st Division.
Interviewer: Okay, so 1st Marine Division. Alright.
Veteran: Yeah. And that was—and then they split us up among the whole regiment. And our
teams went with different units.
Interviewer: So, you are probably 3rd Battalion, 1st Regiment?
Veteran: Mhmm.
�12
Interviewer: Okay. And not the other way around. Alright. Okay, so…Now, did you get to
train with them? Or do you join them someplace, or…? (00:16:21)
Veteran: Well, we joined them down on the rest base, which was on Pavuvu.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: In the Russell Islands.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, but you are—so you—did you form up the company back in
San Diego or Pendleton?
Veteran: Yes. Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, once you have formed up the company, now what
happens to you?
Veteran: Well, then…Well, our next operation was we just went overseas.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: They…
Interviewer: What kind of ship were you on?
Veteran: We were on a Dutch ship that had a Dutch crew and an American gun crew. It was an
old ship named [sounds like Polio Lout] The captain on that ship was a Dutchman and he…I can
still hear him. He’d say, “Garbage detail. Dump the garbage!” And that is where we started our
float across the sea.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, was it just your company that was on this boat, or were there
other Marines?
�13
Veteran: No, we had…Well, it was our unit, which was 600, over 600, men.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Was this in—
Veteran: And—in total. And we stopped in Hawaii for one day and they picked up a bunch of
Japanese troops. Where—what they were doing there, I have no idea. But anyway, they joined us
on the ship.
Interviewer: So, Japanese Americans?
Veteran: Javanese.
Interviewer: Oh, Javanese, like from Java?
Veteran: From Java.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And I—to this day, I don’t know. I assume they were there being trained for something
or another.
Interviewer: Okay. Because the—
Veteran: But then we began our trip across the ocean. Thirty days later, why—well, we stopped
first at Tulagi and Guadalcanal. And they—if I remember right, I think they unloaded the
Javanese troops at Tulagi.
Interviewer: Yep. (00:18:31)
Veteran: And then, from Guadalcanal, we went over to our rest base which is about another 50
miles on Pavuvu.
Interviewer: Okay.
�14
Veteran: Which was a coconut grove.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, did your ship sail in a convoy?
Veteran: No. We were just a sole ship.
Interviewer: Just by yourself. Because normally—
Veteran: Thirty days.
Interviewer: Okay. Did you do a lot of zigzagging while you were sailing? Did you change
course a lot? Or not that you noticed?
Veteran: I…Not that I know of.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: It is very possible that they did.
Interviewer: Alright. And were—
Veteran: It took long enough.
Interviewer: Yeah. Now, were you worried about Japanese submarines or aircraft?
Veteran: I didn’t particularly think about them, no.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so you get to Pavuvu, you are in the Solomon Islands and
now…Now, does the rest of the division—
Veteran: That’s where the 1st Division was at.
Interviewer: Okay, so the division is already there. So, now is then when they kind of split
you up and they assign you to the different battalions?
�15
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And then, were there particular people that you worked with
that you remember? Or individual—
Veteran: Well, our commanding officer of our regiment was Chesty Puller, who was a legend in
the Marine Corps.
Interviewer: Okay. What impression did you have of him at the time?
Veteran: Oh, well complete awe. He was definitely for his men. For instance, we had some
natives come over from another island and they built some grass huts for us for mess halls. And
officers and men were all eating in the same mess hall. (00:20:21)
Veteran: And we had a new second lieutenant who had come in. He walked up and got—went up
to the head of the line to get in, but he didn’t notice that the colonel was back here in line,
waiting his turn. And Chesty went up and grabbed him and I don’t think that second lieutenant
ever stepped in another line while he was in the Marine Corps. But that’s the way Chesty was.
He was for his men. Granted, our regiment took a lot of casualties. And a lot of people blamed
him for it, but he was there with you. He wasn’t just sending you.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. About how long do you think you stayed on Pavuvu?
Veteran: On Pavuvu…We were there…Oh my. I suppose we were there maybe 3 or 4 months.
Interviewer: Okay, so quite a while.
Veteran: Which—yeah, we did night training, we did make work, make work, make work.
Interviewer: Did you practice any landings? Did you use the landing craft?
�16
Veteran: Yeah, we did go back over to Guadalcanal and did some assault landings, practice
landings, on the Canal.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And that was when—after that, we took off for Peleliu.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, what was your actual job when they were making a landing?
What would you do? (00:22:15)
Veteran: I was a runner. My favorite expression was when I took a message to the colonel one
time. And when I was still 16 years old and very impressed by this legend of a Marine, he said,
“I don’t know what we would do without you runners,” he said, “I can’t depend on these radios
or telephones.” Well, he could have told me to go ride straight to the gates of hell and I would
have went. But that’s the kind of an officer he was.
Interviewer: Right. Okay.
Veteran: But that was my job as a runner, to—if the communications broke down then my job
was to get the message there by foot.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And they would say, “This needs to go to so and so and so and so.” Well, I’d, “Where
are they?” “They are over there.” You know. “Here’s the telephone line. You can follow that
telephone line. That will go to them.” Well, you’d follow that line about so far and then it would
be blown in two or run over by a tank or something else. And you go well, okay…and you would
just have to wander around until you found where you were going.
Interviewer: Alright.
�17
Veteran: But you would deliver the message and you would come back and…
Interviewer: Okay. When you were in the Solomon Islands there, before you went to
Peleliu, did they do anything to prevent you from getting malaria?
Veteran: We took Atabrine tablets.
Interviewer: Okay…
Veteran: Which turned you yellow.
Interviewer: alright.
Veteran: Turned your eyes yellow, turned your skin yellow. It was a—that’s the first thing that
really shocked me when I got there was to see all of these yellow guys. But that was basically to
try and protect you from…
Interviewer: Okay. Now, did—were there guys who tried to avoid taking it? You know,
people who didn’t want to take it? (00:24:21)
Veteran: We didn’t have a choice.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: When we would go through a chow line, at the end was a corpsman who was standing
there and he had a bottle of Atabrine tablets and he says, “You open your mouth,” and he throws
it in your mouth, and you take a sip of something and swallow it down.
Interviewer: Alright. Okay, well did it work? I mean, did you get malaria?
Veteran: I had malaria. Not real bad, but no it wouldn’t keep you from malaria but it would help
if you did get it.
�18
Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, because it was supposed to keep you from getting it.
Veteran: Well, it was a terrible tasting thing. If you ever got—if you ever tried to chew one, you
would never forget it.
Interviewer: Alright. But they are getting you ready now for your operation. Now, when
you joined the unit, were there a lot of men who were experienced soldiers? People who
had been—fought at Guadalcanal or Bougainville or someplace like that?
Veteran: Well, yeah in our division we had a lot of troops that had been in—on Guadalcanal. We
had troops that had been in…
Interviewer: I think in Gloucester was another place they went.
Veteran: Yeah. Yeah, in Gloucester. New Guinea. [Cape Gloucester, on New Britain]
Interviewer: Okay. Alright.
Veteran: And of course, they had been in Australia for a short while.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: Just before I joined them.
Interviewer: Yeah, but that was just to recover and get a little time off.
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: Okay. So, now you go to Peleliu. Can you describe—it’s an island in the
Peleliu archipelago. Did they tell you why you were going there? (00:26:11)
Veteran: Oh yes.
�19
Interviewer: What was the purpose?
Veteran: Yeah, they…Our—the general got on the speakerphone and gave us quite a lecture that
within 3 days, we would have this island and the air base on it, in order to have better
connections with getting aircraft to and from Japan and a place for aircraft that had been to Japan
and had problems and needed to land, could land because there was an airstrip on Peleliu.
Interviewer: Okay. Well, I think it was kind of between Indones—you are closer to the
Philippines.
Veteran: It was—yeah, 10 square miles.
Interviewer: Alright. And what do you remember about the invasion, the landing?
Veteran: We went in in amtracs.
Interviewer: And what is that?
Veteran: Okay, which is—some people called them alligators. It had tracks that they run on, and
they went in the water. But the bulk of the thing sit about that high out of water. And we were
all—we had all gone down rope ladders and dropped into these…No, I am sorry. We didn’t that
time. That time we went down. We were on an LST. We went down on the—in the—where the
amtracs were at and loaded into theamtracs. And I happened to get a position where I was
straddling the drive shaft that went through it and looking out the back of the amtrac. And that
was my—that was the only place I had. And that’s where I rode into in the second wave.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, was there a bombardment ahead of time or anything like that?
(00:28:18)
�20
Veteran: Oh yes. Yeah, they had shelled it for days and days and days. And you’d think there
can’t be anything left. Well, they didn’t touch it. They—it was—we had very little piece of the
beach the first day. And I remember going in and as we went in, why, you could begin to hear
the fire coming. And they had a point about the north end of Peleliu. There was a little point that
set out there and that’s where the Japanese had some boat guns dug in, the machine guns
covering them and so forth. That was our biggest problem there. But as we came in, they were
trying to hit the amtracs that were coming in. and I forget how many waves of amtracs there
were, but from—after the amtracs, then they had—they came in in ducks, which was a different
type of vehicle.
Interviewer: Yeah, it’s an amphibious truck instead of an amphibious track vehicle, yeah.
Veteran: And but as we went up over the reef, why, it went—the amtrac went up just like this. It
almost felt like you were going to tip over backwards, you know. But by the same token, looking
out the rear, I was seeing these shells. And I saw what happened to some of the amtracks. They
were hit before they were come ashore, which was—our air unit was just wiped out in one of
those. So, we had no people that dealt with air strikes left. But anyway, we pulled in up onto the
beach. And then those old amtracks you had to jump over the side. There was no rampart.
Interviewer: Okay. (00:30:33)
Veteran: And so, I went over on this side. There was a shell that hit over on this side. And then
all the guys that were driving the amtracs said, “Get out of here! Get out of here! Get out of here!
I got to go back and get more people.” So, it went over. And…
Interviewer: So, now you are on—
Veteran: Basically, you just started ducking because it was nothing but fire coming.
�21
Interviewer: Alright. Did you try to get off the beach or you just stay where you were?
Veteran: Well, first thing you did was dig a hole, try and get some cover, because we were
getting a lot of fire on the beach. They shot a lot of people on the beach.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, was there opposition directly in front of you so you couldn’t go
forward?
Veteran: We had—they had troops in front of us, but the big item was this peninsula that stuck
out here.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And that was immediately on our left flank. And they could just rake the whole beach.
Interviewer: Okay. Was the Navy—were the Navy ships trying to shoot back at that?
Veteran: I am sorry?
Interviewer: Was anyone shooting back at the Japanese?
Veteran: Oh, well yeah. Yeah, if you could see them. But you know, spotting them…But then
you would get a lot of fire going and you don’t know. You can’t spot a target every time. You
don’t know what you are shooting at.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, was the island—was it a volcanic island or fossilized coral or…?
(00:32:13)
Veteran: Yeah, it had—they—all the reef and everything was just terribly sharp. And they had
owned that island for 30-some years. And I think they must have been digging on it the whole
time because they had places that were 3 stories deep down into those. And they had railroad
�22
tracks run down inside that they could run artillery up. They had doors that would—big steel
doors that would fold shut. That—if you could call Naval gunfire in, you had to get it while it
was open in order to do any good.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: That’s—it was—the first day there was pretty rough.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you just—did you have—did anyone order you to do anything
that first day? Or do you just stay put?
Veteran: Well, we didn’t have much choice. You couldn’t get up and go. The airstrip was
relatively close to where we landed. And that of course was our first objective. But we couldn’t
approach that first day at all.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, what happened that first night? Once it gets dark?
Veteran: I had a hole dug. And there was some activity during the night, but it was difficult to
tell what was going on really. And until daylight, well then you find out what was going on at
night. It was pretty wild. We had one man in our unit that went berserk and started just firing at
everything and everybody. He threw a smoke—or a phosphorus grenade into the foxhole close to
him that was his best buddy. And that phosphorus grenade went off and burned him real bad.
And I can still remember those corpsmen hollering up and down the beach, trying to find…I
forget the stuff that they had that would stop that phosphorus from just completely burning free
you know.
Interviewer: Right. (00:34:54)
�23
Veteran: And but I don’t remember the name of it, but I remember them, you know, passing that
word up and down to the—nobody had any. My sergeant wound up killing the guy that was
doing all this, which…That’s…You know, that’s kind of a new experience for a 16-year-old.
Interviewer: Certainly. Okay, now were—how long were you stuck on the beach?
Veteran: Well, the second day I was up and running messages.
Interviewer: So, were they pushing you forward into the airfield by then or…?
Veteran: We took the airfield I think it was the 3rd day.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And but we were still getting the fire on it, you know, because that island was so small.
No matter where you were, you were subject to it. But…
Interviewer: So, when you are carrying messages, I mean, how do you—what do you do to
avoid being hit?
Veteran: You run fast. And offer up a little prayer and so forth. But basically, I spent most of my
time just trying to find a telephone line or trying to find where I was going to deliver whatever I
was supposed to deliver to whomever it was. And it was quite an education. So, I got to go a lot
of different directions. But it was…
Interviewer: Now, did you carry— (00:36:38)
Veteran: I was still pretty ignorant of the fact, but I did make a couple of trips down through to
the point. And when I got down there, we had one company down there that was literally just
wiped out. And they…I just—I couldn’t get over all of the dead Marines that were laying right
there on the beach.
�24
Interviewer: Because that campaign, that lasted a number of weeks. I mean, it was not—
Veteran: Oh yes. It went on for a long time. A matter of fact, after the war ended, there were—I
think it was 30 or 40 Japanese troops who finally surrendered years after the war was over. They
had lived that continuous time down in those caves and stuff that they had dug. And they had
films of them, you know, when they come in to surrender. Of course, that was after we were long
gone.
Interviewer: Right. Now, did you carry a weapon?
Veteran: Oh yes. I had an M-1.
Interviewer: So, you had a rifle like anybody else.
Veteran: Yep.
Interviewer: Did you ever use it?
Veteran: Yes. Yes. Whether I ever hit anybody or not is a good question, you know. If you think
you see something and you think that that—then you can shoot at it, but you very seldom do you
really know because basically they were dug in, and it was… (00:38:22)
Veteran: They had control areas where they had dug into the ground too. And I can remember
one time when I went down to the point, they had found this opening to an underground.
Apparently, it was a pretty good-sized opening down under there. And but they were trying to
get everybody to quiet down because they had heard some noise down in there. And they were
calling down in there to make sure it wasn’t some of our troops that were down in there. And
there were no answer, no answer. So, they finally just began throwing some grenades down
�25
and—but I stopped and watched that for a while. Well, okay. But it was, you know, I had a job to
do, and I had to go on my way. It was…It was a real learning experience for a 16-year-old kid.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: I actually turned 17 abord ship leaving Peleliu.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, when you were on the island, while the battle is going on and so
forth, did you have a regular place that you would sleep? Or were you just always moving
around?
Veteran: I was—generally, I was on the beach. And that’s where I got most of my orders from
and so forth, but then I was from one end to the other and all around.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, had they dug in some kind of headquarters that was—
Veteran: Oh yeah, they had—
Interviewer: --safer?
Veteran: They had a concrete block building on the airport that was—I don’t think they ever
knocked that building clear down. And that was—they had some—they had worked on that
island for the whole time they owned it.
Interviewer: So, you took over some of the Japanese facilities then? (00:40:24)
Veteran: I am sorry?
Interviewer: Your headquarters—your people kind of took over some of the Japanese
facilities that they captured?
Veteran: No, never really use them. No.
�26
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: No, we were just out in the open most of the time.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, did you ever see any Japanese aircraft there?
Veteran: Yes. Well…Not on Peleliu.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: But Okinawa, a lot of them. Yeah. That’s where the kamikaze started coming in.
Interviewer: But at Peleliu they are not bothering you particularly?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: That was basically our aircraft.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: And Naval gunfire.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, do you remember any Army troops landing on Peleliu?
Veteran: They came in to relieve us because they pulled our regiment out after 10 days. Because
we were just—we were done.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: There just wasn’t enough of us left to be effective. And they pulled us around on Purple
Beach. And eventually they just took us back down to our rest base.
Interviewer: Alright. And how much of the regiment was left at that point?
�27
Veteran: I am sorry?
Interviewer: How much of the regiment was still there?
Veteran: Well, they took our First Regiment. Is—was the first ones they took out off the island.
Interviewer: Right. But what kind of losses had you taken?
Veteran: Some companies were just practically gone. And like the Company K that was down on
that point, I think there were 8 men left out of that company.
Interviewer: Alright. So, did you go back to Pavuvu?
Veteran: Yes.
Interviewer: Okay. (00:42:09)
Veteran: Well, and of course, they had a hospital ship offside. They couldn’t get anybody out
there until, I don’t know, the 3rd or 4th day before they could really get many of the wounded out.
Because I know when I first—when we first got on the island, I had come up to a—against—
they had a big tank trench that was dug along there down deep. And I thought that looks like
pretty good cover. So, I jumped down in there and I looked over here and there is—I think there
was 4 of those guys that were our Navy radiomen. What are they doing over here? Well, and
then I realized they had all been tagged. They were all wounded. They had them tagged for
waiting to get them off to the hospital ships. But it took a little bit to register on me what was—
what the deal was. It…We—it was just a pretty tough deal.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Yeah.
�28
Interviewer: Alright. Now, once you are back on Pavuvu, do they start bringing in
replacements and rebuilding the regiment?
Veteran: We—well, yeah when we got back down to Pavuvu, we started getting—started getting
some wounded back from—that they had a Naval base over—I can’t remember the name of the
island. But they had a Naval hospital over there. And that’s where they took a lot of our
wounded. Little by little, why, some of the wounded guys would come back into the company.
Interviewer: And did they say— (00:44:03)
Veteran: Well, I had one good friend that had been hit in the right rear end. And when he came
back from the hospital, why, he didn’t have any right rear end. And he was on crutches. They
thought that he would recover but they finally took him back to the hospital. I never saw him
again, so I don’t know just what happened from him. But…
Interviewer: How long did you stay there? Did you stay there until you went to Okinawa
or…?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: That’s a long time.
Veteran: Yeah, we stayed there until we got ready to go to Okinawa.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, at what point did you get new guys coming in?
Veteran: Well, our regiment was out of there in 10 days.
�29
Interviewer: No, I mean on—when you are on Pavuvu and they have to rebuild the
regiment. Did you get new men coming in?
Veteran: The 81st Army unit relieved us.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Because I can remember somebody, as we were going in—or out—they were going in.
One guy said, “What outfit is this?” he said, “It’s 81st wildcat division.” He said, “You might be
the wildcats now, but you’ll be tame pussycats before long.”
Interviewer: Alright. Okay. I guess—I was asking about your first Marine regiment. You
take a lot of casualties.
Veteran: I am sorry?
Interviewer: You took a lot of—but your unit, your regiment took a lot of casualties.
Veteran: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: You go back. But then, did they send you a bunch of new recruits?
Veteran: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: To replace the old ones.
Veteran: We re-fitted. Of course, a lot of people lost a lot of gear and so forth, so they had to
resupply us with a lot of things.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you get to know the new guys? Did you start working with the
new ones?
�30
Veteran: Oh yeah. Yeah, they would come in, and of course we were all living in tents, and just
fill in the vacant spots.
Interviewer: Okay. So, it sounds like you spend the better part of 6 months or something
close to that on Pavuvu.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Rebuilding.
Veteran: Yeah, that was our rest base. (00:46:22)
Interviewer: So—yeah, so what was a typical day like while you were there? What did you
do?
Veteran: Make work. Make work. That’s all. You’d see one team coming down digging a ditch,
another team coming down and filling in the ditch. Another crew went over. They were digging
in this coral pit, digging up coral, loading it in trucks and bringing it up to our living area and
filling in the swamps so we weren’t living in a swamp. But that went—that was a 24-hour day
job. They would just—you would work a shift and then go back and work another shift and that.
And oh, doing night azimuth trips where you would take your compass and shoot an azimuth at
night and go out into the jungle and go so far, so long, so far…And eventually, you were
supposed to come back out where you went in. but oftentimes, it was daylight before some of
them come back. And it was so dark that we got to picking up pieces of rotten wood that would
fluorescent and sticking that in the back of your belt so you could follow the guy ahead of you.
And I can remember following one of those fluorescents and, all of a sudden, I stepped off in a
big hole. But that was almost a joke, you know.
�31
Interviewer: Okay, yeah. Did they do anything to provide you with entertainment? Were
there movies or anything? (00:48:21)
Veteran: They had a movie set up. A bunch of coconut logs laid out where we could sit on the
coconut logs and watch the movies. And of course, that was a big deal, you know. We watched
those movies. And at one time then, is the one time that I saw Bob Hope and part of his
company. They had been over on Guadalcanal, and they heard that the 1st division was on
Peleliu. And they didn’t bring their whole crew over there, but they did bring a few of them over
there. And so, we saw that show. And he had…Oh my, I can’t remember this comedian who was
with him. Had a big mustache. Can’t remember his name now, but and he had 3 or 4 dancers,
you know. And so, he come over and put on a big show for us. We weren’t on his schedule but
when he found out we were over there, he come over and they had to come over in Piper Cubs
because that is the only strip we had was a Piper Cub strip. So, they couldn’t bring a whole
bunch of people over there.
Interviewer: Right. Now, did you get to go off the island at all? Or were you just stuck
there the whole time?
Veteran: No, no. Well, we went swimming.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Or I would look for shells and things like that.
Interviewer: But you didn’t get a leave or furlough or anything?
�32
Veteran: Oh no. I never had a leave the whole time I was in the Marine Corps. I had a 2-day pass
just before I went overseas in World War 2. And my mother and my little brother come out to
visit me. And I got a 2-day pass to have with them.
Interviewer: Okay. (00:50:13)
Veteran: That was the only leave I ever had out of the Marine Corps.
Interviewer: Alright. Okay, now—
Veteran: They paid me for it all and you know. But…
Interviewer: Okay, so you are on Pavuvu for a long time. You have this routine you are
doing. Did you think maybe the war was going to end before you got back into it?
Veteran: No. No.
Interviewer: Okay. I guess they were still expecting to go to Japan.
Veteran: We were getting ready for the big show up in Okinawa.
Interviewer: Right. Okay. And Okinawa—so, what—when the time comes then to go to
Okinawa, now what happens?
Veteran: Excuse me, I—
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I might have to change the battery on my hearing aid.
Interviewer: Alright. You can go ahead and do that.
Veteran: Is that alright?
�33
Interviewer: Yeah. So, we are talking here about getting ready now to go to Okinawa.
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: Alright, so what do you remember about that voyage?
Veteran: That we were on a troop ship for 30 days. Building the convoy up and getting
everybody together. We got off of the ship on an island that they had fixed up for just that
purpose: to let troops get off. And they served some beer, and they served some drinks. They had
basketball courts and a few things set up like that. I can’t remember the name of that island, but
we were there one day.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And we got off the ship. But the rest of the time, I think we were on there—on that
troop ship—about 30 days. It was a long time.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, during that time, could you be on deck a lot of the time? Or did
you have to be— (00:52:18)
Veteran: We could get up on deck as long as there wasn’t any kind of alert or anything going on.
But it was just—we just played a lot of pinochle. And there was a lot of poker games going on.
Interviewer: Alright. And then once the—you actually start to go into Okinawa, what do
you remember about that? Fleet bombardment, whatever…
Veteran: Well…I can remember the night before and I was very apprehensive all night long
because I could see another deal just like Peleliu. And yet, when it come our time to go in, we
were in a freeway at that time for some reason. And yeah, we went in again on Amtracks. But I
know at the control boat, our CO was on that control boat. And we were in what they called a
�34
freeway. And they said, “We will send you in whenever.” They sent—as soon as we got there,
they said, “Go on in.” Oh crap. We walked ashore and never fired a shot.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, do you remember the bombardment before this?
Veteran: Oh yes.
Interviewer: Okay, what were—
Veteran: They—air bombs and Naval gunfire. They just—you’d think they were sinking the
whole place; you know. And but they weren’t there.
Interviewer: Okay. Now—
Veteran: They had evacuated all of their troops.
Interviewer Right.
Veteran: To the other end of the island where they were going to make their defense. The one
time that they did not defend the beach.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: And we were all just stunned, you know. But it was great, you know. Just walk ashore.
Interviewer: Now, at that time when you are making the landing, did any Japanese aircraft
show up or did they come later? (00:54:22)
Veteran: No, they came right away.
Interviewer: Okay.
�35
Veteran: Yeah, because I can remember them because all the ships were just firing like crazy.
And I think they probably shot down almost as many of our planes as they did of others. Because
there was a Zero that came down along the beach. And behind him was—I think it was a
Corsair?
Interviewer: Quite possibly. A Corsair or Hellcat, yeah.
Veteran: But anyway, one of ours was shot down from all of this anti-aircraft coming off all of
these ships out in the bay. But the Japanese, that one got away. But many of them…Well, toward
the end of Okinawa, when they were sending in just planes and planes and planes, they had
moved us up to the other end of the island and we had a radio set up that was air warning
DAT.And they would call in—I’d say flight number so and so, so many bogies. So far from Bolo
Point. And then they would come on pretty soon and say splash, 10 bogies from flight number so
and so, so far from Bolo Point. And then, eventually, why, the few planes that would get through
would come in and you would see them go out and try to get those ships.
Interviewer: Right. (00:56:18)
Veteran: And I—that’s one time I felt sorry for those guys because you can’t dig a foxhole out
on steel decks.
Interviewer: Right. Okay. So, to go back, so basically you have seen the spectacular
bombardment. You know, the air battles start. All this stuff is going on. But you just go on
shore and there is nobody shooting at you.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay. What did you do then once you landed?
�36
Veteran: Went inland. We went into—first place we went into was an airstrip. And well…And
then we stayed. Part of us went back and stayed along the beach there for quite some time.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And then our regiment went on up and they literally took one end of the island with
practically no opposition to mount anything.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: But there were so many natives on there and they had—the Japanese had used that for a
dumping place for their insane, for their people with mumu, which is elephantiasis. And the other
disease…
Interviewer: Leprosy?
Veteran: Yeah, leprosy. Sorry, let me get that.
Interviewer: Alright, so we had gotten to the point in your story now where you are on
Okinawa, they have kind of cleared off most of the island. There is fighting going on in one
end of the island. You have spent a lot of time still near the beach. Now, would you go back
and forth across the island to deliver messages or just stay on the beach? (00:58:23)
Veteran: Yep. Yeah, I did a lot of that.
Interviewer: Okay. And you were—
Veteran: And but then they moved us to the other end of the island where we set up this air
control. But anyway, that was right toward the end of the war.
�37
Interviewer: Right. Okay. Yeah, and so at that point—so you are not really close to heavy
fighting that is going on.
Veteran: No. No, we weren’t.
Interviewer: That was the other end of the island.
Veteran: We weren’t in it at all.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you are manning the stat—
Veteran: We were for a while but not for long.
Interviewer: Okay. And you were talking a little bit about the civilian population was still
on Okinawa.
Veteran: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: And it included people with physical illnesses—
Veteran: Yep.
Interviewer: And mental illness and so forth. Now, did those people come around where
you were?
Veteran: Oh yes. Yeah, they were around and a lot later, they did gather them all up. But at one
time, when we were up there, we had four little orphans—kids—living with us. Utico, Satic0,
Jeto, Tato…
Interviewer: That’s four.
Veteran: And…I can’t remember the fifth name.
�38
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: But anyway, they were all orphans and they just decided to take a liking to us and
stayed there with us. But they eventually came around and rounded up all the civilians and
moved them into a certain area. And but when we were there, some Japanese had come in and I
was on a—delivering a message. And some Japs come in and dropped a bunch of knee mortars.
(01:00:21)
Veteran: I think they were shooting at a little Piper airstrip [for Piper Cub observation aircraft]
that was right there. But the whole works come over right into our area. My lieutenant got
shrapnel. He had like 100 holes in his tent. And he was hit a number of times. Practically
everybody that was there got small pieces because knee mortars, that’s what they were. They
were in to make casualties, not to necessarily kill but to make casualties so that they would have
somebody to shoot at when somebody come to help them, you know. But practically everybody
in the company got hit. And I was gone.
Interviewer: Right. So, the Japanese would just sneak—are there people hiding
somewhere? Or they brought them in by sea?
Veteran: They had been bypassed, evidently.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: They had been bypassed and for some reason, they decided to come down and dump
some knee mortars on that particular area. That—and then shortly after that, well the war ended.
�39
Interviewer: Alright. Now, this tape is about to end so we are going to pause here. Okay,
now we have taken your story to kind of the end of World War 2. Before that was
announced, were you getting ready to go to Japan?
Veteran: Yes. Yea, that was—we were scheduled to go into Japan. And that was what we were
figuring on doing up until the time that they dropped bombs.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, were you doing more training and drills to…? (01:02:14)
Veteran: No. At that time, we were just reorganizing and…Of course, it was not long after that—
it ended—that they sent us to China.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: We went up there to primarily repatriate the Japanese who had been in there since 1937.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And never known defeat. And that was quite an experience.
Interviewer: Where did you go in China?
Veteran: Tientsin.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Which was a big international port.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: It had a history of troops from all over the world, really, that were stationed in there.
Marines were in there for years. But French troops, the German…You know, all kinds of troops
�40
had been in there. Italian. There was a whole lot of Italians, White Russians…A little bit of
everybody.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: But when we got up there, why, it was—oh, there was armies of Japanese troops that
had never known defeat.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And they were all still there armed and so forth. We never had any trouble with them.
Our unit was to get them back to Japan with nothing. They weren’t allowed to take hardly
anything with them. And so, they were selling stuff, they were throwing stuff away. They were,
you know, doing about everything they could. But we had no problems with them. We did have
some problems with some of the Chinese because if you—at that time when we went up there,
they disbanded our unit because we were an assault unit.
Interviewer: Right. (01:04:13)
Veteran: Which we had—they had no use for anymore. And they assigned me to the 1st Signal
Company, and they took me into this building, and they said, “This is a teletype. You are a
teletype operator.” I didn’t even know what a teletype was. But my job there was to sit there and
type four letter code blurbs of messages the whole time I was on duty.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: When I was not on duty, I was almost free to go most any place. But that’s not a good
idea in China. And supposedly we were supposed to be on a certain leave and, you know, you
get so much liberty so often and so forth. But they made the mistake of allowing people to sign
�41
out to go to what they called the division gym or the division theater. Well, that didn’t mean
anything. You’d sign out and go wherever you wanted to go. But it was—it was a mess. It was a
mess. They—we had—you know, they took all of us guys up there that had been down to the
Pacific a couple—three years even—and turned them loose. And you could buy anything for
nothing. I was a PFC, and I had all the money in the world to go out and eat and there was a lot
of—like the Italian soldiers who were there when the Japanese come in and they just sold all
their weapons off and everything and disbanded and started Italian restaurants. (01:06:11)
Veteran: You know, and all of these—like the White Russians, I got to know a White Russian
young man who was in the money market business because China had two types of money. One
type, the exchange rate was like 31,000 to 1. The new Chinese money that they were printing
was like maybe 1000 to 1. And so, people were working this money market by—and that was
what this Russian—young Russian—I can’t even remember his name now. But I got acquainted
with him and I—we went to restaurants a couple of times together. Some Chinaman would come
running in and hand him an envelope and he would open it and look at it and tell him someplace
else to go, you know, to exchange this. We had people in the 1st Marine Air Wing who were
flying from one place to another, and they got in on this act of money changing. And they just—
they would buy it cheap here, sell it high over here and vice versa, you know. And it became
quite a thing over there. But I never got into that, other than I would search around, see where I
could find the best exchange, you know. But theoretically, we weren’t supposed to be spending
American money there anyway.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: They would give us those fake pieces of money.
�42
Interviewer: Okay. And how dangerous was it there? (01:08:06)
Veteran: If you were by yourself, it was very dangerous. If you were 2 or 3 together, they didn’t
usually hassle you. But it was not safe to go anyplace in China by yourself. And it took a while
to learn that because there was—there was a lot of things going on. It was pretty rough.
Interviewer: Yeah. Now, were there—did you have—was there prostitution going on?
Veteran: Oh, the prostitution was 90% of their money. It was just unreal. Just absolutely unreal.
And guys would go out and mess with that stuff and just catch all kinds of diseases. I mean,
terrible. But the biggest thing was go out and get drunk. Just party it up, you know. And if the
Navy was in town, why, we’d fight with the Navy. If there happened to be any Army troops
around, we would fight with the Army troops. Fight over whose bar you were in, you know. It
even got to the point where, you know, we’d start fighting—if there were none of those guys
around, we would fight between regiments or between companies. And you know, whoever was
available and was—but it just got real bad. And when we first got there, they allowed us to carry
weapons on our—when we went out on liberty when we had free time. But they finally tried to
put a stop to that. So, then everybody carried a Kabar down in their boot. And so, you had your
knife anyway. But it was a terrible thing. The bars were just rampant, and I started drinking and
just oh my…Didn’t know—didn’t have any sense to me at all. It…But it was an education.
(01:10:27)
Interviewer: Yeah. How long did—
Veteran: I was there, I was in China about 6 months.
Interviewer: Okay. That’s a long time. Alright. So yet—now you find—now from there do
you get to go back home now? Or what happens?
�43
Veteran: Well, eventually I did. I had enough points to go home but they didn’t have ships to
take us home because they were too busy hauling Chinese from one point in China to another
point in China. They were hauling Chinese troops up to the north where the communists’ troops
were now beginning to—they had a train that run between Peking and Tientsin. And they would
sit up in the hills and shoot at the train as it went by. And eventually after some of us left, they
even attacked one of our units that was down on a—I don’t—by themselves. And it got pretty
serious then. But up until then it was a lot of well, the communists are coming to town tonight, so
we’d be on 100% alert. Well, nobody would show up. So, it got to be kind of a hocus pocus
thing, you know. But eventually, after I had left, why, then it did get pretty serious.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And they finally pulled everybody out of there.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, how did they get you back home?
Veteran: On a ship.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Just a big—a troop transport? Or…?
Veteran: Yeah, just a regular troop ship.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Yeah. (01:12:08)
Interviewer: Alright. And was it a quiet voyage back or did you have bad weather?
�44
Veteran: No, no didn’t have it then. We had bad weather when we left Okinawa. We had run into
a lot of bad weather because there was a big storm came up and our ship—I was on a work
detail. The ship was basically empty other than the work detail had gone on early. And we went
out to sea to ride it out but oh my…They couldn’t cook anything, they couldn’t, you know.
They’d feed us sandwiches and that was about all we could get to eat. And you would have to
stand there and hold onto something to…You weren’t allowed to go on the quarter deck or any
place above decks at all. But it was—we rode out a big hurricane. It was a—that was my first
experience with a real storm.
Interviewer Right. Okay. Now, when you get back to the states, where do you land?
Veteran: I went to San Diego. Back to San Diego.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And we eventually…Well, it didn’t take us too long really. They put us out.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you got your discharge in San Diego?
Veteran: Yep. Got my discharge.
Interviewer: Now, did they have you—ask you to join the Reserves? Or…?
Veteran: Yep.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And I did.
Interviewer: And why did you do that?
�45
Veteran: Because I made corporal. World War 2 and it took me that long to make corporal. And
one of the things they said was, “Well, at least you’ll keep your rank.” And at that time, a
corporal in the Marine Corps didn’t do work details, he might be in charge of work detail. But
basically, he wouldn’t have to do the work that PFCs and privates did, you know. So, I thought
well, maybe that’s a good idea. So, I signed up.
Interviewer: Alright. But in the meantime, you are out of the Marines.
Veteran: Yep.
Interviewer: Where did you go then after you got out? (01:14:25)
Veteran: I came here to Wichita and started to get an education because I had quit high school. I
never even—just barely started the 10th grade. But I took my GED test.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And got a high school equivalency. And started going to college to get an education
because I began to realize I needed one. And…
Interviewer: So, what college did you go to?
Veteran: Well, I started at Wichita State, but I didn’t last very long out there because I had one
class out there that had 220-some people in it. And there was some guy sitting next to me playing
a radio. And I thought man, this is not for me, so I went to Friends University.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And I loved it out there because the biggest class I ever had at Friends was 25 people.
When I took—I was majoring in music. And when I took composition, I was the only one that
signed up for the class. So, I took composition by conference. And it just so happens that the
�46
man teaching composition was another ex-Marine. We hit it off real well. And I had him for an
instructor in some other classes. And we just—I just did great with him.
Interviewer: Okay. And what were you planning on doing with that?
Veteran: I was planning on teaching music theory in a small Christian college.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, did you graduate from Friends?
Veteran: Yes, I graduated from Friends, and I thought I was going to go to Wichita State and get
my master’s degree. And I went out to the VA, and I said, “You know, I would like to sign up to
get some more education.” “Well, you have had all that you can have.” Well, by then I was
married and had 1 daughter. And that just wasn’t going to work too well. So, that’s when I
decided that I wasn’t going to be a—be what I thought I would. (01:16:51)
Interviewer: Okay. So—now what year was this now? When you graduated from college.
Veteran: ’53, I think.
Interviewer: So, that’s after Korea.
Veteran: No. That’s…
Interviewer: Because Korea starts 19—
Veteran; Yeah. Yeah, that’s after Korea. Yeah, I am sorry.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: No, because I had gone to 3 years of college before Korea started.
Interviewer: Okay.
�47
Veteran: And that’s when I was called back. One week after Korea broke out, our Reserve
Marine Corps was called up. And 2 weeks later, we were in California and formed up the 7th
Regiment of the 1st Division.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, when you get there and join the 7th Regiment, what proportion of
the people do you think were World War 2 vets?
Veteran: Probably 50%.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Pretty good percentage of them.
Interviewer: Alright. And how long do you think you stayed in California then?
Veteran: Not very long. We formed up the 7th Regiment, loaded it up on ships, and 3 weeks later
we made the landing in Inchon.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, what do you remember about that? (01:18:16)
Veteran: I remember going in in a amtracagain. And sailing past a big ship that was firing 16inch guns over our heads. And come in and made the landing. And fortunately, we didn’t run
into anything real drastic. For quite a little while. And matter of fact, that was a good move. That
was MacArthur’s thing.
Interviewer: About the last smart thing he did, yeah.
Veteran: Yeah, that’s exactly right. That’s the last smart thing he did. But he—you know, we
went in and went…We got over about halfway through Korea. The South Korea.
Interviewer: Yeah.
�48
Veteran: And then they decided that they would just pull us out. And we come back around.
They pulled us back out and we got onboard a ship and went clear around the south end of
Korea, went up into North Korea. They had a landing up atWonsan. MacArthur says, “Just go
right on up and take North Korea.”
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And we made a very peaceful landing there after a certain length of time. It took some
ships a long time to clean up the mines that had been placed out in there. But we finally go there.
But then we began running into some opposition. And some of it was serious, some of it was just
kind of nitpicky stuff, you know.
Interviewer: Now, was your opposition at this point North Korean? Or were you getting
Chinese showing up? (01:20:19)
Veteran: No, we didn’t get the Chinese until we got clear. We got within 16 miles of the Yalu
River. It’s where we had tow regiments up there. We had the 7th Regiment and the 5th Regiment
of the 1st Division. And the 1st Regiment of the 1st Division was back here about 30 miles. And
they had a perimeter set up there. But that’s when the Chinese come in.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, what did—when you are going into Korea—because you go in,
did you go through Seoul or close to Seoul?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: We went through Seoul, and it was—you know, it was just leveled.
�49
Interviewer: Right. Okay. And when you come around, you go to North Korea. Now what
was the country like?
Veteran: Mountainous. And very calm for a while. Matter of fact, I could remember one of the
first buildings we stayed in was a—had been a university of some type or another. Because they
had a great big pump organ in there. And I played the piano. I finally found someone to come
over and pump the organ for a while for me so I could play. But nobody wanted that job full
time. But we, at that time, we weren’t—you know, weren’t getting much things. We—as far as
us going into North Korea, we had the North Koreans beat.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: At the 37th parallel. 39th parallel.
Interviewer: Well, 38th is the official one but yeah.
Veteran: 38th.
Interviewer: Yeah. But they had really worn themselves out in the earlier fighting and now
they were collapsing. (01:22:16)
Veteran: We had cut off a whole lot of them. Because they took our regiment and attached us to
the 1st Cavalry Army division for about a month. And we were supposed to be out rounding up
these Korean, North Korean, troops that had been bypassed. Well, we didn’t find any to speak of
you know. Because all they did was just change clothes. So, we were assigned the 1st Cavalry for
about 30 days. And that’s the best we ever ate at Korea.
Interviewer: Okay. So, Army food was better than Marine food.
Veteran: Yeah. That was a whole different thing.
�50
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: But then they finally pulled us back. And we began our trek up north.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, did you—
Veteran: The further north we went, the more opposition that we received.
Interviewer: Now, was it starting to get cold too?
Veteran: What?
Interviewer: Was the weather getting colder now?
Veteran: Oh yes. Yes. Very cold. Very cold. And a lot of wind and a lot of snow and it was
miserable. But…
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: We—our regiment got to within not 16 miles of the Yalu.
Interviewer: Right. Okay. And were—
Veteran: And they hit our two regiments with six full Chinese divisions. And all they had to do
was cross the bridge and they were on us.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: So, they weren’t even really cold yet.
Interviewer: Yeah. Well, a lot of them had already been positioned inside North Korea
waiting for you.
Veteran: Oh yeah. Yeah, they were just waiting.
�51
Interviewer: So, you are in the area around the Chosin Reservoir then.
Veteran: Yep. That’s right.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, when that fighting starts, what happens to you?
(01:24:05)
Veteran: Well, the first thing that happened to me—well, we pulled—they hauled me and a
bunch of other guys down and we stood in the crick bank, frozen crick bank, for…I don’t know,
probably 24 hours because they thought the Chinese were coming through there. Well, they
never showed up there. But then we held up there. They told us to hold up there for 2 days and
we did, which allowed the Army over on the other coast to pull—start pulling—back. But then
when we started pulling back, then we had a horse of a different color. The first thing that
happened then: we were at Yudam-ni. That’s as far as we got. But the captain called me, and he
said, “If you can’t carry it and run, burn it.” I thought oh, well, that don’t sound too good. But he
knew what was coming. And we had a single road that we—it was the only way out. And they
had already infiltrated down along—and they had troops set up all along there, just waiting for us
to try and get out of there. And the two regiments played leapfrog with each other coming out of
there. And you would—and of course it was cold, like 30 below at night.
Interviewer: Now, were you just a rifleman or were you a communications guy? What was
your job?
Veteran: At that time, I was in communications for 7th Regiment. And but, when this started, you
were troops.
Interviewer: Right.
�52
Veteran: There was no particular job, you know. As a matter of fact, a lot of the stuff we
destroyed was stuff that was used for that kind—for communications and so on.
Interviewer: Yeah. (01:26:25)
Veteran: Basically, we were all troops.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And we started leapfrogging out of there. And the 1st regiment had a perimeter set up at
Hagaru. And that was where we wanted to get to first to coordinate, get back with them, and
there was a British battalion that was up there with us, with them. And but they had come from
down south and they had taken terrible casualties getting up to that perimeter. But we had to go
on this main road. It was the only way out. And vehicles were freezing up. If you didn’t keep it
running constantly, they would freeze up and they were done. They would just shove them off
the cliffs. But we started down that road and everybody walked except wounded.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: They—and for a long while, we were trying to load up dead too as we went along to
pick up whatever dead we could and put them in the 6x trucks. But when we got to Hagaru, by
the time we got there, we had so many more casualties that we had to unload all of those trucks
we had filled with dead, and they were buried there. I think there was like…I can’t remember the
number that we buried, but I can remember they just bulldozed a big hole out and covered them
up.
Interviewer: Right. As you were making that move down to Hagaru, how close do you
think you got to the Chinese? (01:28:18)
�53
Veteran: About as close as I am to you.
Interviewer: Okay. So—
Veteran: Because every time we would come around a bend, they were situated up here and we
would receive fire. And at one time, they ran through us, turned around and run back through us
on the road. And at that time, our whole S-2 unit got wiped out. My captain got machine gunned
in both legs. And I just—I can remember seeing—I was hiding behind a tank once. And I’d look
around and when the machi—when the tank would fire its machine gun, this was at night, I could
see this Chinaman laying out there. He was dead. But every time they would fire, there would be
enough light, and you could see him. I imagine that Chinaman got shot 150 times because he was
one of the targets you could see in the dark. But it—eventually, if they would stop shooting long
enough, we’d get on the road and literally just run down that road as fast as we could run. And
there again, nobody riding except wounded.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And we pulled into the perimeter at Hagaru. And we stayed there…I can’t remember
now how many days we stayed there, but as we came in, we had to run by a tank that was
burning. And there was a lieutenant that was trying to time it with the snipers that were up here
shooting and telling us when to run, you know. It come my turn to run around that tank and I
headed around that tank, and I slipped on the ice and my helmet went one way and my rifle went
another way. (01:30:34)
Veteran: And I got my rifle back. I just left the helmet there because there were helmets laying
every place. And we finally got within and then they said—when we got around where they
couldn’t shoot at us anymore, why, then they said, “Well, there’s some warming tents set up
�54
down there. Go down there and find a place where you can get in and get sleep.” Because we
hadn’t slept at all. And I went out and found a place. Not on a cot or anything, but on the ground,
close to an oil burning stove, and went sound asleep. I mean, I just passed out.
Interviewer: How long had it taken you to get from your original position down there?
Veteran: Well, to that point, it was about 4 days.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Yep, it was just running and stop, run and hide, run and stop.
Interviewer: And now that you have gotten this far, you still have to get back down to the
coast.
Veteran: Yep.
Interviewer: So, if you—
Veteran: Still got to get all the way down. And that’s where we run into a whole lot more fire.
When we first began to move out of that area, then I can remember seeing Chinamen coming
down off of the hill, just like a—a lot of them had suits on. And it just looked like sheets of them
coming down. And if it was clear enough, then we could get some air power in. That’s—air
power is the only thing that saved us up there. Because they would hit those, and you would see
a black spot show up there and then pretty soon it would just fill in. There were so many of them
coming. And but, thankfully we got enough of that air power in when it wasn’t snowing so bad.
But when it was snowing bad, it was cold, it was bitter cold. But basically, we were just running
down that road. (01:32:56)
Interviewer: Mhmm. And how long did it take to get down?
�55
Veteran: Ten days.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: We spent ten days that way.
Interviewer: Now, was that worse than the first four days or about the same? Which part
of that evacuation was—
Veteran: The first eight days were terrible.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Because we got down so far and then it—right after we cleared out and when we got to
Hungnam, that—they had a big river around Hungnam.
Interviewer: Right. Okay.
Veteran: And we pulled into there and they had ships ready to take us out.
Interviewer: Alright. But I guess I was sort of asking too—I mean, was the trip from the
reservoir down to Hagaru, and then you had Hagaru down to the coast.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Were those two trips about the same in terms of how scary they were? Or was
one more dangerous than the other?
Veteran: Well, just getting started was the hard part.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Because we took—that’s where the bulk of our casualties were.
�56
Interviewer: Because I guess—
Veteran: But there are still 7000 missing up there. Well, not all Marines but—we were on the
Army side too. But they are continually finding people. Matter of fact, when I went to
Washington DC with the flight about 5 or 6 years ago, that next morning they were burying a
young Marine whose body they had just recently found in North Korea. And he was being buried
up at Arlington.
Interviewer: Okay. (01:34:37)
Veteran: And but he was being buried the day we left to come back.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: So, I would have loved to have gone to that service. But I was tickled to death to get to
go the 2 days that I went up there.
Interviewer: Right. Okay. So, now they have gotten you back down to Hungnam. Now
what happens?
Veteran: They evacuate us out of Hagaru. They put us on a ship where they had—evidently, it
had been some kind of a…A pleasure ship of some kind.
Interviewer: Okay, a passenger ship. Yep.
Veteran: Yeah, a passenger ship. They had two galleys, they had hot water. They had everything
going. And they were serving food 24 hours a day in those two galleys. They had hot water
running and they—those of us that didn’t have any clean underwear, they were supplying us. The
Navy was supplying us with some clean underwear. And they took us back down—we went
clear back down to the capital of South Korea.
�57
Interviewer: Seoul.
Veteran: Seoul, yeah. And then we—yeah, we stayed there. That was about Christmastime.
Because our chaplain had found a little organ someplace and he had a church service that night.
He wanted me to play his organ for him. I was surprised. It was just a little old pump organ, you
know. But I don’t know where he come up with it, but we had a Christmas. And then we came—
we were being refit. New troops coming in and so forth. and I went to the hospital. I was in the
hospital for 2 weeks.
Interviewer: Okay, and why— (01:36:48)
Veteran: Over at Maeson.
Interviewer: Okay. And why were you in the hospital?
Veteran: Well, I had frostbite. I had an infected tooth. I had pleurisy. I was sick.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: And I was in the hospital I think 10 days.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And then they decided that I was well enough to go. They said, “Well, go down to this
casual company.” I thought well, I will be in the casual company for a while getting rest. I
wasn’t in that casual company 15 minutes. And I would—had gone down to one of these tents
they had set up down there and started to sit down almost. They said, “Hey Crow, we got
transportation back to your unit.” I couldn’t believe it, you know. And they took me over there
and they put me in the back of a C-20—what was that?
Interviewer: An airplane?
�58
Veteran: Twin engine.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And they had a whole bunch of mail bags in there. And me and a pilot and a copilot.
And sure enough, within very short time, I was back in our area. I went in to see the sergeant,
top, and I finally found him because there was a lot of strangers around there that I didn’t even
know. And when I walked in to see him, he said, “Where have you been, you gold brick so-andso?” But anyway, I was back.
Interviewer: Okay. At this point in the war, the Chinese are still pushing south, and they
push through Seoul. (01:38:45)
Veteran: Yep.
Interviewer: Okay, so did you have to move? Or what happened?
Veteran: Let’s see…Well, that way—that’s when we—they assigned us over to the 1st Cavalry
unit.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And we were supposed to look for some of these Chinese that had been bypassed. And
that didn’t work out very well. So, then they send—we went back to the line and the line then
was back at about the 48th parallel. 38th parallel.
Interviewer: 38th, yeah. Okay.
Veteran: And then it was back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.
�59
Interviewer: Okay. Is it becoming something closer to sort of trench warfare with stable
lines?
Veteran: Oh yeah, at the—well, not so much that as you’d go up a ways and then you’d have to
come back a ways.
Interviewer: Yeah, yeah.
Veteran: Then you’d go up—
Interviewer: Because the Chinese—yep.
Veteran: --a ways and it was just a push and shove. And it was…It was really pretty tough.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: But then it was—I can’t…Trying to remember.
Interviewer: So, did you—how long—do you think you stayed into the middle of ’51 or…?
(01:40:12)
Veteran: We got—we were right along the parallel.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: That’s eventually where the fighting kind of settles down.
Veteran: Yeah, they have just been going back and forth, back and forth and back and forth. And
but I was back with my—now at that time, they had me in charge of the message center. And I
would…Oh, one of the jobs I was doing was encoding messages and decoding messages on a
little CSP-1500 about like this. You’d have to set all the pins and everyday was a different set of
�60
pins and so forth. Because I can remember one time the Korean army on our left flank had pulled
out and left us up against a river on our side and they were trying to push us off over here. And I
was in a foxhole between two tanks. And I had that message coder down there, trying to type out
a message. I don’t know if I was encoding it or decoding it or what. But I mean, it was—the
tanks would fire, and I would jump, and the machine guns would fire. You know, I thought this
is ridiculous. You know, but that’s the—they eventually got a pontoon bridge brought across that
river and we were able to get out of there. But it was—it just got to be a fiasco. It was just a back
and forth and back and forth. Some of those roads I think I could have run in the dark. But…But
eventually, a guy come around and said, “Your enlistment has run up. I got some papers here for
you to reenlist.” And I said, “No, thank you. I am not reenlisting.” He said, “Well,” he says, “if
you are going back to the States, you can’t reenlist.” I said, “I am not going to reenlist.” I said, “I
am going home.” And they had come out with an All-Mar [Marine Corps] Directive that said
everybody with so much time in Korea, so much time in World War 2, went home no matter
what. (01:42:59)
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: But you couldn’t re-up. So, I eventually got on a truck, and I worried that whole time I
was in that truck because they were hauling me all the way from where we were up in central
Korea clear down to the Pusan.
Interviewer: Did you go to Seoul or Pusan?
Veteran: In the dark, at night. And I thought sure as a whirl, I am going to get killed going out of
here, you know. But eventually got me down there. They put me on a ship. We went over to
Japan for one day and lo and behold, they still have my sea bag over there, which we had left
�61
there when we stopped in Japan on the way in. So, I got my sea bag back and then they sent us
home on the ship.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: And I took complete discharge then.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you finally then get back home to Wichita. You get home to Kansas
again. Now what do you—you went back to school to finish school?
Veteran: Yep.
Interviewer: Okay. And then, when you graduated, the VA didn’t want to give you
anymore money.
Veteran: Yep.
Interviewer: After those first four years. So, you are not going to be the music professor.
Veteran: Yep.
Interviewer: So, what did you do instead? (01:44:16)
Veteran: Well, I got a job with a company that was selling aircraft parts.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: It happened that a gentleman I knew was a top patrolman for them. And I was at—well,
I was working at the sheriff’s office. I had spent 4 years at the sheriff’s office as a deputy sheriff,
but mainly as a dispatcher. But having some—spent some time on patrol.
Interviewer: Now, were you doing that while you were in school? Or did you do that after?
�62
Veteran: Yes.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Yep, while I was in school.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: Because that—I worked 3rd shift there—or 2nd shift there and then I worked 3rd shift at
Allway Sutton Company. And I went to school in the daytime, and I slept here and there.
Interviewer: I guess. So, your family did not see you?
Veteran: It was tough. It was tough because I had a wife and a child. And of course, they
suffered when I got called back to Korea. They—my wife didn’t get any allotment for 4 months.
Interviewer: Wow.
Veteran: So, I had a good friend of mine that worked at OK Transport Company in town. He was
a good friend of mine, and he loaned my wife money and wouldn’t take any of it back until I got
home. And so, she got by for those 4 months, but it was a mess.
Interviewer: Yeah. Alright. But now you wind up working for an aircraft parts company?
Veteran: Yeah, I worked for a company for about 8 years. And then I went to work for another
company for probably 6 or 7 years. And then I decided I was going to start my own company.
So, I paired up with a good friend of mine. And he had a company that he was doing plastic
supplies. And he had been dabbling in aircraft parts some. And I said, “Well, we will go see what
we can do.” So, we just eventually split it up and he had one company and I had another
company, and we did very well. And I was—I enjoyed it. And that’s what I retired from.
(01:46:53)
�63
Interviewer: Alright. Now, to think back to the time that you spent in the Marine Corps,
how do you think that affected you? Did you change because of it or learn anything?
Veteran: Well, I think I just got a little smarter. Began to realize, you know, that there was
something more important than fishing or hunting or, you know, things like that that I enjoyed so
much. Or like going down to play pool in the pool hall instead of going to school, and things like
that. I began to realize that there was other things that needed to be done. And it was a…I
changed a long ways. It—war has a way of changing your mind on a lot of things. I was—I felt
so fortunate to get through as well as I did. And matter of fact, I never filed for compensation
until about a year ago. That’s the first time that I went out. I used to go out to the VA once in a
while after World War 2. And I just—it was such a hassle. Just a complete hassle. I just—I said,
“To heck with it.” And I just give up on it.
Interviewer: Okay. And— (01:48:24)
Veteran: But then when my wife come down ill, I began to realize I am going to be stuck with
some pretty big care bills here for a while. I said, “I am going to go up there to the government
and see if I can get some compensation for frozen feet and loss of hearing and whatever.” So, I
went out and I was amazed this time. They just went just like this.
Interviewer: Mhmm. Well, good for them.
Veteran: And I—first thing I knew, well, I was getting some compensation for hearing and my
feet. And up until then, all I had ever heard was you have too much money. You have too much
money. And well, so…So what?
�64
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Well, you clearly have done well for yourself. And it makes for
a very good story, so I am going to close here. I would like to thank you for taking the time
to share it today.
Veteran: Well, I appreciate what you are doing because I know that people need to know what
some people gave up for—because we lost so many great people. So many of them. And I
just…And so much of it was mistakes. Mistakes that were made by leaders or thinkers or what
have you. It…And it was a shame. But that’s about it.
Interviewer: Yeah. Well, soldiers have to do what they have to do.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: You did your job. Alright. Thank you. (01:50:16)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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CrowW2147V
Creator
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Crow, William
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07
Title
A name given to the resource
Crow, William (Interview transcript and video), 2017
Description
An account of the resource
William Crow was born on October 4th, 1927 in Butte, Montana. He primarily grew up in Wichita, Kansas. In 1943, he altered his birthdate on his birth certificate so that he could join the Marine Corps at 16 years old. William completed his basic training in San Diego, California. He did combat training at Camp Pendleton and then later completed communication school. He was part of the 3rd battalion, 1st regiment, in the 1st Marine division that was involved in World War 2. He was sent overseas to Pavuvu in the Solomon Islands and then to Peleliu, Okinawa, and China. William’s primary assignment was to deliver messages by foot if communication systems failed. During his time serving in World War 2, he was involved in various skirmishes. He was promoted to corporal by the end of the war. Upon returning home after the war, William joined the Marine Corps Reserve. His unit was eventually called to California to help form the 7th regiment of the 1st division in response to the Korean War. He then went overseas to both North Korea and South Korea. William was involved in various skirmishes during his time serving in the Korean War. After the war, he studied music at Friends University and graduated in 1953. William lives with his family in Wichita, Kansas.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Rights
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In Copyright
Type
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Moving Image
Text
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application/pdf
video/mp4
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f8788da4d778c78be375ac3cb9dbf71b.mp4
ee1c9c981f864bcf693829f4c4b42137
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f0265b605310ab6ae9b95734c72293de.pdf
d5e365c00d61544ab4e6de6c457cbc24
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
James Hugh Crowell
(01:58:49)
(0:00) Early years
• Born in McArthur, Ohio 1924
(0:50) School
• Rode a horse and buggy to school
• 3-4 miles away from home
o Horse stayed all day; boys had to bring food for the horse
• 3 older brothers (went to school with 2 of them)
• 1-room school house set back from a railroad stop
• All 8 grades were in school
• Had some female teachers and one male teacher
• Remembers the male teacher using a willow whip on the boy next to him
o A piece of the willow whip broke off and flew in between the barely open
window; almost broke the window panes
(3:01) Games
• Tag
• Little sponge ball
• Had boots with jack knife
o With the jack knife, used to play a game called “mumblely pig,” where
you would take the knife and flip or throw it
• Many kids had a pair of 4 Buckle Arnies
(4:50) The Depression
• Crowell’s father worked for the WPA
o Father never told family what job was because he didn’t want his family to
know that he went on welfare in order to provide for them
o One comment (made by one of father’s work friends) Crowell will never
forget: “When it came time to work, he would pick up the shovel and not
put it down until it was time to quit.”
• WPA
o Projects run by the government like art work, forestry, etc.
• Crowell’s mom stayed at home
• Later, father worked for Ohio gas company
(7:03) Meals prepared by mom
• Baked bread once a week
• Whenever would bake bread, would make bean soup
o One time Crowell was carrying the bowl of bean soup to the table but
dropped it because it was too hot so there was no bean soup for supper!
(8:04) High school
• Played baseball, basketball, and football
�o
o
o
o
Liked baseball the best
Played everything but catcher
Lost championship game 2 – 0
Mother came and watched some games; father died of a heart attack when
Crowell was 12
(9:52) Dances
• Where met his wife (Mary Crowell)
• Played three numbers, two slow songs and one fast one
o Mary got him to dance all three numbers!
(10:42) The death of his father
• His mom, brothers, and himself lived with a doctor and his family
o Mom kept house for them
• Mom then went into practical nursing
o When boys were in high school, would be gone for 2 weeks at a time
• 4 boys
o Elmer (oldest), Acen(?), Phil, and Jim
(11:36) Current events during high school years
• Crowell paid attention to the political arena
• Used to get a current events magazine
o Knew that the Japanese was secretly building up their navy;
o Battleships had 18 inch rifles, which was against the League of Nations
(which only allowed 16 inch rifles)
• League of Nations
o Useless because makes laws but cannot enforce them
• Germany
o Obvious that building up for war
• Many US lawmakers were isolationists
o FDR – Crowell had no love for him but respects what he did
Started Lend Lease program
• At the start of the WWII draft, many soldiers practiced with broomsticks because
all the rifles from WWI and other ammunitions had been sent overseas to England
• Press was often misleading
• Other current events
o Amelia Earhart
o Lindenburgh’s kidnapped baby
• In the 1930s, remembers that Hitler took over Poland and the smaller countries
and Mussolini took over Ethiopia and Albania
(16:56) Pearl Harbor
• Sunday night
o Crowell was staying with his brother in Kalamazoo and he would
hitchhike back and forth from Athens [Michigan]
o Stood at corner of where M-78 runs through Athens
o A sailor came and ended up hitchhiking with him
o The sailor had just arrived home on leave but got a telegram saying to
report back immediately for duty.
�o A salesman in a Ford Coupe picked them up and dropped Crowell off in
Kalamazoo
o Sailor was going to continue to Great Lakes, IL
o News came on the radio saying that Pearl Harbor had been hit
o Soldier said, “I know where I’m going now.”
• The next day Crowell heard all the speeches, including FDR’s “a day that will
live in infamy”
(18:42) After Pearl Harbor
• Graduated in June of 1942
• Enlisted in the Navy in September 1942
• Prior to enlisting, worked in Kalamazoo at NYA, which was training for shop
work
• Started working in Kalamazoo then went to Battle Creek
• Had trouble enlisting because of a bad hand
(20:16) Enlistment
• Went to Detroit for a physical
o Had to sign a waiver and wait a few weeks
• Was sworn into the Navy
• First Navy meal was beans!
• Boarded train in Grand Rapids and traveled to Great Lakes, IL
o Traveled on an old coach with a steam engine
(21:49) After boot camp
• Went to Jacksonville, FL radio school
• Seattle, WA for gunnery school
o On way to Seattle, train stopped in Chicago where Crowell got to see his
mom, brothers, and girlfriend (Mary) for the last time before the end of the
war
• Went from Seattle to San Francisco on a train called a “40 and 8,” meaning that
the car could carry 40 men or 8 mules.
o Kerosene lights that would swing back and forth
o Hot so would open the sliding wooden doors but then the dust would be
incredible
o One time, a little boy who was selling peaches jumped aboard their car; he
sold the soldiers peaches and then had the soldiers hold him by the hands
over the ground so that he could “run off” the train instead of jumping off.
(24:12) First day at Great Lakes
• Fastest haircut in life
• When entered, each soldier was given $5, which ended up all being spent on the
haircut, razor, toothbrush, and other required Navy items
• Received a huge uniform (size 38 when he was a size 34 or smaller)
(28:28) Boot camp
• Barracks
o Slept in hammocks
o Tables were always in the middle
�o Barracks were built in the shape of an ‘H’ where the center would be the
laundry room and the toilets
o One time, Crowell was assigned to introduce his barracks for inspection,
making sure to salute the officers; the first officer through the door was
Mickey Cochrane!
• Testing
o Took various test to see which school you were best suited for
o Crowell loved flying but he couldn’t make it into flight school so decided
to do aviation radio
o Went to Jacksonville, FL for training
(28:35) Jacksonville, FL
• At the Naval Air Station, learned radio theory, worked with tube radios, learned
Morse Code, and radar (which was brand new)
o Wrote a letter home to parents talking about working with “radar” but his
parents thought he kept misspelling “radio”
• Explains the workings of radar
o The machine pulsed 600 times a second
(33:20) Friends
• Cosby, a tall, thin boy from West Virginia
(34:28) After gunnery school
• Went to Seattle where trained with 12 inch shotguns
• Crowell was 4th out of 100 in shooting skills
• Learned how to fire machine guns, both .30 and .50 caliber
(37:26) Alameda, CA
• Became a part of CASU - 6
o Carrier Aircraft Service Unit
• When VB-18 was formed, he was assigned to that unit in August 1943
o dive bombing squadron
• trained until November then went to Watsonville, CA for more training
• Flew with pilot steady named Art Chevelle
o Randomly assigned to go on a practice flight with Chevelle during training
o every so often, Crowell would be assigned another training flight with
Chevelle
o one night, Crowell couldn’t sleep and got this feeling that Chevelle was
the pilot he needed to fly with
o went down to the hanger and Chevelle if he could fly with him
o Chevelle and Crowell made 266 flights together; the last 22 flights were
made in combat
• Talks about a softball game between officers and other Navy men
• E-5 plane had controls in the backseat so if the pilot became injured, the gunner
could fly the plane
• After Thanksgiving, went to Crow’s Nest, CA for more training
o Crowell turned down offer for NAP because liked what he was doing and
who he was flying with
(48:52) Hawaii
�•
Went on Lexington Carrier to Pearl Harbor where transferred using Jacob’s
Ladders to the Ann Sheridan troop ship
• Trained to navigate by radar
• Night flight with Chevelle
o Training flight operation was cancelled that day because of the weather
o Chevelle and Crowell went out to practice
o A few months later, Chevelle and Crowell needed to make a landing on
carrier in a bad storm, which because of training, they successfully did
(54:14) More about training
• Crowell and Chevelle were making a navigation hop with Watkins and Fussell
o Crowell and Chevelle were the tracking plane where the followed and
checked the other plane for navigation
• There was a really bad rain storm and Chevelle and Crowell began to think the
other plane was lost
• Crowell called radio, etc.; he did everything to try and get through to the gunner
but the gunner couldn’t read code
• Crowell wrote on a piece of paper “ARE YOU LOST?” and put it up against the
window
• The other plane motioned yes
• Crowell used EB Adapter to get back on track
o Used radio beacon and found signal
o 2 days earlier, walked into an operations building and on the chalkboard
was: “new EB frequency…55 kilos”
o Crowell had written that down on a piece of paper and put it in his pocket
o The day of the storm, that was the frequency Crowell needed to use to find
the signal
o Corrected plane direction by 10 degrees and they made if safely back
• How the radio beacon works
o If fly out of beacon, the radio signal will die
o If fly into the beacon, the radio signal gets stronger
TAPE 2
(0:00) Carrier operations
• Lost 3 men in 4 months due to crashes
• When joined VB-18 squadron, first thing you did was make a will
(2:15) Combat
• Started over Palau Islands, east of the Philippines
• Above Babelthaup saw first burst of anti-aircraft fire
• Watched a bomb hit a hill then slide down the hill into a forest where it blew up
• In the southern Philippines (Mindanao), got into some real anti-aircraft fire
• Burned the city of Lalle? the second day
o The day before, threw out literature telling the people to clear out
• Chevelle started in on dive but the smoke was so intense that he pulled out at
4,000 or 5,000 feet
• Came in on a big cement wharf
�•
So close to the water, Crowell thought that the ripples were created by their plane
however they were actually created by enemy machine gun fire
(5:28) Landing accident
• Crowell and Chevelle torn plane to pieces landing one time
• When landed, plane bounced over 3 cables and hit the turrets, which snapped the
plane in two
• Crowell was thrown 100 -150 feet forward; bit through lip, had a hole in his
elbow and knee and dislocated arm
• Chevelle had a huge bump on his head
• A motion picture has been made about this accident
(8:27) More about combat
• Heavy fire at a distance
• Flying over Formosa to Okinawa October 1944
• Crowell, like always, rode backwards and saw the enemy crossfire
o Looked like red straws of a broom
(10:16) Battle of Leyte Gulf
• Ship anti-aircraft is different from land anti-aircraft fire
• Flying back to the Philippines when found Japanese fleet
• Crowell’s ship was the only mainland carrier in striking distance of fleet until late
afternoon
• 28 planes versus the 29 Japanese ships
o 1 ship has the anti-aircraft capacity to hold off 12 planes
• At 18,000 feet, anti-aircraft fire was everywhere
o Each ship had its own color of anti-aircraft fire so would know where
bursts were going; looked like fireworks
• An out of body experience
o At one point, Crowell remembers seeing himself struggling against the
gunner shoulder straps as if a strait jacket but he could do anything about
it; couldn’t stop self
o Then heard music of a hymn “Be Still My Soul” and the most comfortable
feeling imaginable fell over him
o Crowell was put at ease in the midst of fire and noise
o Was relaxed even though the rest of the flight was wild
• During the flight, 40 mm were blowing by them so close, it was as if you could
catch them
• Chevelle hit a Japanese battleship dead center and it exploded
• In total, lost 2 planes
• Squadron leader did a rendezvous to round up the planes that were left
• Heard and saw huge splashes below
• The Japanese were still firing but using their big guns; they had figured out the
range but not the correct elevation
• When Crowell got back, looked up hymn in hymnal and sure enough, “Be Still
My Soul” was there
(17:25) October 25, 1944
�•
Decoy task force of carriers drew their plane feet while the real Japanese ships
snuck through and shelled troops on
• October 26, Panay, Palawan (west Philippines)
• Ben Preston led the flight and found fleet of Japanese
• Chevelle and Crowell asked for permission to pullout because couldn’t see target
through the cloud cover
• Permission granted so found another target and went back down
• Crowell decided to look through the front window and found self looking down 2
gun turrets shooting at them
• All 4 bursts hit behind Crowell and Chevelle, so close that their plane shook
• Chevelle and Crowell dove again and just nearly missed hitting the ship with their
fire
o But hit close enough to ship where still caused some damage
• When Chevelle and Crowell came back up, found themselves lost because in
flying into the operation, their plane was a “wingman,” meaning that the pilot was
focusing on flying the plane wing to wing as opposed to navigation
• Worked their way to the Eastern Philippines
• Met up with 3 other planes (WASPs) headed north
• Strangely, could not communicate with them at all
• Tried to pick up radio beacon from ship and failed
• Crowell just leaned his head over and prayed
• When opened his eyes, full blown signal on EB Adapter
o It was a full blown signal right away, an answer to a prayer
• Called pilot and peeled off, left the three planes alone
• Found carrier and landed
• When landed, plane died; there was NO fuel left
• Crowell and Chevelle surprisingly beat the other planes from the squadron back to
the carrier
• Many planes went into the water because out of fuel; all pilots were rescued
(31:23) Dogfights over Manila
(37:47) Massive air attack
• November 25, 1944
• 2 suicide planes hit the carrier as well as a 1000 pound bomb
• Ship and task group was firing
o Took off during the attack
o One fighter pilot took off from the elevator just seconds before the bomb
landed on that spot
o When that pilot took off, the deck was swinging about
• Group landed at Leyte because the carrier was hit badly and couldn’t be used in
operation
(39:22) Back to the United States
• Lost 15% training and lost another 40% to combat
• Traveled back on the carrier Intrepid
• Chevelle went to fly fighter planes – “Bearcats” which were the fastest propeller
driven aircraft
�•
Crowell went to Jacksonville, FL and then down by Key West until February
1946
• Chevelle nominated Crowell for the Yorktown’s Combat Air Crewman’s Roll of
Honor and Crowell was sworn in
(43:42) More information on rescuing pilots
• Destroyers would go out and pick up pilots whose planes lost fuel before landing
• Pilots would ride in life rafts which were in the plane; they also wore Mae Wests
• Rescued soldiers would get to carrier by Jacobs Ladder seat
(46:18) Suicide Planes
• Crowell was in the Torpedo Defense room, located below the hanger deck at the
aft of the ship
• Sounded general quarters, which meant under attack
• Scrambled to deck and saw a Japanese torpedo plane right in his face
• Ran like crazy
• Torpedo did not hit or was a dud because there was no explosion
(48:46) Navy discharge
• Discharged at Jacksonville, FL
• Went to Ohio to visit relatives
• Then lived with his girlfriend’s brother and wife
• Started business school on the GI Bill
• Got married
• During the war, he and Mary wrote letters back and forth many times
(53:25) Marriage
• Church wedding
• Proposed to Mary in her bedroom, when she had brought him there to show him
the cedar chest she had purchased with the money he had been sending her
• Inside the pocket of his uniform, he had rings he had bought in Pearl Harbor on
his way back to the states
• Worked as a clerk for Sinclair Refining Co.
• Later, he and his brother started own business
• In 1967 switched to selling wholesale hardware
(59:26) Kids
• Had 2 children of his own
• Has many grandchildren and a few great-grand children
• He and Mary have been married for over 60 years
�
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Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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Title
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Crowell, James Hugh (Interview outline and video), 2007
Creator
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Crowell, James Hugh
Description
An account of the resource
James Crowell is a WW II veteran who served in the United States Navy from November 1942 to February 1946 in the South Pacific. In this interview, Crowell shares with great detail his time in combat, including the Battle of Leyte Gulf, dogfights over Manila, suicide attacks, a massive air attack on November 25, 1944, and a landing accident that threw Crowell 150 feet from his plane. This accident, which both Crowell and his pilot survived, was made part of a motion picture.
Contributor
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Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer)
Collins, Carol (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Navy
Naval gunners
Veterans
Video recordings
Language
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Moving Image
Text
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2007-05-15
Identifier
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CrowellJ
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b280f848497c9430a60931d1c0e1c7df.mp4
a54f5554793e55357bddb0c6a68dc710
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/269d47184b3b6aa1f94e7203eec658e0.pdf
4fa9ed81737b1f70dc3fa0b902b467ac
PDF Text
Text
Mary Crowell Interview Transcript
Interviewer: Charles Collins
Transcribed by Emilee Johnson
Length: 1:16:41
Charles Collins: Well, Mary, I’m Charles Collins and today we’re going to do your oral history,
actually your whole lifetime. So Mary, let us start out by me asking you your full name, your
maiden name as well as your married name, where, and when you were born.
Mary: My name is Mary Louise Mitchell Crowell. Mitchell is my maiden name. And I was born
near East LeRoy, well, between East LeRoy and Pine Creek, those were two little villages, so I
was actually born in the country in August of 1926, the last day of August.
Charles Collins: Nineteen twenty—?
Mary: Six.
Charles Collins: Six?
Mary: Mmhmm. That dates me. [laughs]
Charles Collins: Yes it does, doesn’t you? It makes you be a nice young lady.
Mary: A little. [laughs]
Charles Collins: Mary, tell me what you remember about before you went to school.
Mary: 1:00 Well, I was raised on a farm, the fourth of…well, I had two brothers and a sister
older than myself, and then there was a sister and two brothers younger. There’s four years
difference between my older sister and myself. My mother thought that, one time we were at
home talking about children and at that time abortions, and my mother made the remark, “Well, I
thought I had my family until you came along.” And I acted a little shocked at that remark and I
said, “Well, Mom, I’m terribly sorry that I upset your plans.” Which, I said, “I’m a little
confused, I’m not sure if I was a very good baby or if I was a bad baby that you had to have two
more boys 2:00 and a girl to corral me!” But she said, “No, I’m glad I had you.” So from that
point on, I would always get a dozen gladiolas and give to her on my birthday.
Charles Collins: Aw, good!
Mary: And tell her, I’m thankful that you had me. [laughs] And I think she said she was too.
�Charles Collins: So tell me the names of your siblings.
Mary: My oldest brother was Eldon Mitchell. Eldon…well, let’s see…gosh, he’s been gone a
few years and I’ve forgotten his middle name! [laughs] Eldon …well, let’s say Eldon Mitchell.
Charles Collins: Ok
Mary: And Leon Mitchell, and Marcille Mitchell Wayne, that was her married name, and then
my younger sister was Fern Mitchell Bishop, and my next brother was Gordon Mitchell, and
then Franklin Mitchell was our youngest.
Charles Collins: So your mother had 3:00 seven children.
Mary: That’s correct, and they were all born at home, delivered by the same doctor which was
Dr. Funk. I was born on the last day of August and they were harvesting oats at my father’s farm.
And, of course, there were many men gathered for the process of, thrashing oats, and my mother
had two sister-in-laws there, helping her with the dinner that day, and they had dinner for the
men. And, she said that she got washed up, and got freshened up a little bit, went to bed and then
they called Dr. Funk because I was on the way! [laughs] So I was born right after they harvested
and were thrashing oats.
Charles Collins: Well, now, tell me, did she get up do dishes afterwards too? [laughs]
Mary: [laughs] No, I think she took the excuse to stay in bed a few days! [laughs]
Charles Collins: [laughs] Oh my!
Mary: 4:00 So that’s how women…we were all born at home.
Charles Collins: That’s very interesting, I’m sure your grandchildren will be very interested to
hear that.
Mary: They’ll be quite surprised.
Charles Collins: Yes. Mary, tell us a little bit about the things you did before you went to grade
school.
Mary: Well, my younger sister and I had a play house in the grape arbor. It wasn’t built, you
know, with wood and ladders and things like kids have today, but it was just how the grapes
grew over the framework of wire, and we would fix our little playhouse in that grape arbor. Well,
we had seen our mother as she baked cakes and so forth, and crack eggs and stir them into the
batter, and for some reason or other one day, my sister and I decided we would go out to the
henhouse 5:00 and get a few eggs and put them in with our mud pies. We thought that was
great fun. But when it came the end of the week, when my mother usually took the eggs and the
�cream into Athens and sell them, and that money went towards buying flour and sugar and things
like that that we needed, she discovered that her eggs were short that week. [laughs] So as she
looks around, and then she went to the grape arbor, she found shucks. So, I think that answered
where the eggs went that week. [laughs]
Charles Collins: And what did she say about that?
Mary: Well, she was a very mild-mannered woman, and I think she knew that we probably saw
the repercussions from what happened and so, we didn’t get a spanking for it but we knew that
we weren’t to do that again. [laughs] Probably some of the 6:00 games we used to play?
Charles Collins: Yes!
Mary: We had a two-story house, farmhouse, and we would play Andy-I-over.
Charles Collins: Ok.
Mary: And that’s where we took a ball and threw it over the roof, and you tried to catch the
people on the other side before they caught the ball. So that was a game—
Charles Collins: That was a fun game.
Mary: Yes, it was, and not only that but we were getting our aerobics and our exercise at the
same time. [laughs] And we had hopscotch and I can remember as a child, my dad thrashed
wheat and corn…or, wheat and rye, and oats, and then he had a corn husker that he used for
doing custom corn husking for the farmers, and as the thrashing machine was parked in our yard,
we kids used to climb up on that and jump off. Well, that was really, five feet, 7:00 I would
say, that we kids used to jump off of there. And we just thought that was great fun, running and
jumping up on that machinery and jumping off. Until our legs got to aching and then we decided
it was time to quit. [laughs] And another thing that we used to do was walk on stilts. We had,
you probably know what those are like, a couple of sticks with a little wedge nailed to it, and we
would get on those stilts and see who could walk the furthest.
Charles Collins: Without falling off.
Mary: Without falling off. And one time when our grandchildren were home, and Jim had built
some stilts for them, why they were having difficulty trying to even stand up on those. So I said,
“Oh, I think Grandma’d better show you how to do that.” Well, they looked at me in disbelief,
that Grandma could get on 8:00 two things like that and walk around. But I showed them
Grandma could still do it. [laughs]
Charles Collins: [laughs] Well, that’s rather interesting isn’t it?
Mary: [laughs] That’s jumping ahead a few years.
�Charles Collins: Couple days anyway?
Mary: Yes. So another thing that we used to do in play, we would take an old tire with a stick.
And we would see how long we could keep that tire rotating as we would keep pushing it along
with a stick. Now, I don’t know if anyone else ever had a game like that or not, but we had a lot
of fun doing it. And we also had a horse that we would ride.
Charles Collins: That was fun, wasn’t it?
Mary: Bareback.
Charles Collins: Oh, you rode bareback? Aha!
Mary: Yes. One time when I was riding bareback, the horse leaned over to eat, and of course, I
slid over the neck of the horse, and my foot caught in the bridle, and I hung head-down. 9:00
And I just hung there for a while because I didn’t know how to get myself back out of that
situation. But I had an older brother that came and rescued me. So some of that play could be a
little—
Charles Collins: Could be a little bit dangerous, couldn’t it?
Mary: Yes. And we always would hop out of the hay mow too. Jump in and out of the hay mow,
so that fun.
Charles Collins: And that was in a fairly good-sized barn at that time.
Mary: Yes it was.
Charles Collins: How large a farm did your family have?
Mary: Well, my dad was farming about 10 to 40 acres, cause he would do some custom farming
too.
Charles Collins: Was that his full-time job, farming?
Mary: Well he did farming and then he did the custom harvesting for some farmers, and then he
also had a saw mill. And he sawed ties for the New York Central Railroad.
Charles Collins: Ok.
Mary: And one time when they were just finishing, a order for the New York Central Railroad,
10:00 the truck was loaded with the ties, and he was just using…he was left-handed, so he was
using a little stick-like or board to kind of move some of the saw dust away from the saw, so it
could be carried off to the pile where they carried it away.
Charles Collins: Sure.
�Mary: And he bumped his elbow and it threw his arm against the idling saw and cut it almost off
completely.
Charles Collins: Oh my!
Mary: Mmhmm, so they rushed him with that load of ties and the truck, to the nearest farmhouse
and they got in…they happened to catch the man at home, and he transported him to the hospital
in Battle Creek, and the man that had just drove into the yard happened to be the man…he
wanted to go with them, he was the man that donated the blood to my 11:00 father.
Charles Collins: Wow!
Mary: But Dad did lose his arm.
Charles Collins: Did lose his arm?
Mary: Yes, just about six inches below the left elbow.
Charles Collins: And, how old was he at that time?
Mary: Oh, he was probably in his late fifties.
Charles Collins: Ok. Well, that was kind of a traumatic thing for you to see and to understand
wasn’t it?
Mary: Yes, but he was a determined gentleman. And, when he came home from the hospital, the
first thing he did was get on the tractor and drive to East LeRoy to just show himself that he
could operate the tractor.
Charles Collins: Still could do that. [laughs]
Mary: Could still operate the tractor!
Charles Collins: Well, now, Mary, as…as life went along, and you started school, where did you
start school at?
Mary: I started school, it was just about a mile from where we lived, and it was a one-room
school, 12:00 we went through the 8th grade there. , I had a teacher that was a cousin, at one
time, and my older, next to my oldest brother, attended, my sister was there, and myself. And I
can remember a picture that we had taken of that school, and I was sitting on the front row. And I
had, it must’ve been early spring, because I had a ridge around my ankles, and I realize that I
must’ve had my over…my winter underwear still on. Cause Mom wouldn’t let us leave the
house until it got warm enough to take that underwear off. [laughs] So, that’s what we wore for
warm clothing was some underwear.
�Charles Collins: What were the winters like there, at your area?
Mary: Some were very cold, we may have snow up to the fence rows, 13:00 and I can
remember that my…our mothers sent warm meals to school with us. And that meant that my
mother one day, fixed some vegetable beef stew and took it off the wood-burning stove that we
had, that’s what she cooked with, a wood-burning stove, and we carried that to, about a mile, to
our one-room school. By the time we got to the school it had begun to ice around the edge.
[laughs] And so, that was a cold winter.
Charles Collins: Yes it was! Did the school have a stove you could put it on then and keep it
warm?
Mary: Yes, we had a stove. It was a large, wood-burning…I think it was wood-burning
completely, stove, and the teacher would put that pot of stew on there. And that’s what we had
for lunch. Another thing that our teacher would do, they had a willow stick, 14:00 wooden
stick that would lean…well, I’d say it was probably about five feet tall. And they had it leaning
back in the corner, back of the wood-burning stove. And every kid knew, if they misbehaved,
they would get that willow stick, probably, on their behind. But I never once saw it used.
Charles Collins: Oh, wow!
Mary: Never once.
Charles Collins: It was just there for—
Mary: It was there and people knew what it could be used for.
Charles Collins: For information, they knew what it did! [laughs]
Mary: Yes, yes. [laughs] And we, of course, being a one-room school, we, when we got our
work done, we could listen to the class ahead of us, at what they were studying. And spelling
was always a subject that interested me. And we had what was called spelling bees.
Charles Collins: Yes.
Mary: And we would go around to the different schools and have our spelling bees. 15:00
Well, I had to be in the 4th grade before they would let me go to any of the spelling bees. And
one spelling bee was held at a school which was called The Little Red Schoolhouse. And the last
two people still standing at the end of that spelling bee was my older sister and myself. And I
thought, “Oh gosh, I got to be against Marcille!” And of course, I was challenged to speak the
word…or to spell the word, acquaintance. And I was just so sure of myself, I just said “H-u-q-ui-n-t-i-n-c-e.” And my sister said, “She forgot the c.” So my sister won! [laughs] So that’s the
way it was spelled then, anyway.
�Charles Collins: Ok.
Mary: But, it was interesting. And 16:00 as I look back on history, I feel fortunate that I went
to a one-room school because it was fun.
Charles Collins: And you learned so much in advance that the next grade was a little bit easier
for you wasn’t it?
Mary: Yes, yes. And we could play ball and different things at school. And to show you what the
economic times were like, at that time, I recall one child coming to school and they must’ve had
two penny suckers. Now, a penny sucker would be pretty good size, probably a little smaller than
a golf ball. But it was good size for a penny.
Charles Collins: Pretty close.
Mary: Yes. So, we didn’t have candy at disposal like kids have candy today. But I sucked on that
candy bar…or, that candy sucker for a while, 17:00 and then I saw my sister around, and I
gave it to my younger sister to finish…finish the sucker. [laughs]
Charles Collins: [laughs] Ok!
Mary: So, there was a feeling that you shared.
Charles Collins: What kind of games did you play while you was at school?
Mary: Well, we played ball. And some, we did have a friend…a couple of girls that had bicycles.
Charles Collins: Ok, that was fun.
Mary: Now that was really, they had to be rich to have a bicycle.
Charles Collins: Yes they did.
Mary: At least in my eyes. And I learned to ride on one of their bicycles. So we had bikes that
we could share and kids would learn to ride on. Then as winter came, we could slide downhill.
So there were…we made our own fun.
Charles Collins: That’s true and …it was fun. And as you went on through 18:00 your
schooling, did you have a 8th grade graduation ceremony?
Mary: Yes, we did. But there’s one thing I’d like to say about the one-room school. We didn’t
have flush toilets or anything like that that you have in schools today. We had to go outside.
Charles Collins: To an outhouse.
�Mary: To an outhouse. Winter and summer. Yes. But , yes, we had graduation from the 8th grade.
That was recognized. And we used to have programs, especially at Christmas time, so that we
gained some experience in performing.
Charles Collins: Could you recall any of those special programs that you participated in?
Mary: Well, I can recall the Christmas programs but I cannot recall what I did! [laughs]
Charles Collins: Ok. Mary, as you went on through school, what year was it that you graduated
from the 8th grade? Do you remember that?
Mary: Let’s see. 19:00 Well, I graduated in 1944 from high school. So about 1940.
Charles Collins: So it must’ve been 1940.
Mary: Yes.
Charles Collins: Ok.
Mary: And , then when we graduated we went into Athens, which was a larger village. And , my
first day in Athens high school, I sat in the farthest corner because I was very shy, and I thought
that looked like Grand Canyon to come into that building. And um, I just sat in the corner, and
sort of looked out the window because I was afraid to look across that assembly hall. It looked so
huge. And um, finally, I kind of turned around in my seat and looked off across the building at
the [SKIPPED] looking over that freshman class. Well, I must confess that one of those boys
20:00 turned out to be my husband.
Charles Collins: Oh! Is that right?
Mary: There was him and his 3 friends.
Charles Collins: And they were checking out the freshmen.
Mary: And they were checking out the freshmen, so I don’t know whether he had his eye on me
at that time or not. [laughs]
Charles Collins: Well he must have for a little bit cause he was looking that way.
Mary: Yeah. Yes he was.
Charles Collins: Well now as you went to high school in 1940—
Mary: Yes.
Charles Collins: Tell me a little bit about what was happening in the world at that time, do you
remember?
�Mary: Well, I remember that we, some came to school by car, they would sort of carpool. In
other words, my brothers had a car and they might have a few they would transport.
Charles Collins: That would ride with them.
Mary: Yes. But I came in town and stayed with a family. So then I walked from their home to
school. 21:00 And um, we didn’t have but one major sport, either…in the fall it would be
football, and in the winter, basketball, and in the spring it would be baseball. And I was not
taking part in any of those sports because girls really were not involved in sports at that time.
Charles Collins: They…did they have cheerleaders at that time?
Mary: Yes they did. But I was too shy.
Charles Collins: Sure.
Mary: You know, I was so shy that…finally, it must’ve been sophomore or junior year…
Because when the teacher would ask us to maybe read aloud in class, that frightened me terribly,
I’d just think, well I can’t do that, you know, with all these kids. 22:00 But gradually I realized
I didn’t want to be so shy. And um, so one time when they were trying out for cheerleaders, I
thought, there’s one way to start getting myself out of this and that’s forcing myself. So I
thought, I’m just going to try out for cheerleading. So I did, and I got chosen as a cheerleader.
Charles Collins: Oh boy!
Mary: So [laughs] that started me a little bit in getting over the shyness.
Charles Collins: Yes, I bet it did.
Mary: Then I’d take part in plays and so forth.
Charles Collins: Do you remember any of the plays that you took part in? The names of them or
what you did?
Mary: Well, of course, I’d play some part. I don’t recall that I played a major part in any. But my
goodness, I can’t remember any of those plays.
Charles Collins: So tell us, did you get involved in any of the school dances?
Mary: Oh, that was something I loved to do. I loved to dance. Because at one time, we lived just
23:00 a few doors, in Pine Creek, and we were about two doors from a dance hall.
Charles Collins: Oh my!
�Mary: Just around the corner. And my mother would let my younger sister and myself go to the
dance hall because we had two brothers and a sister there that were older than we. And we
danced every dance. That was our exercise.
Charles Collins: Oh, that was fun, wasn’t it?
Mary: It was wonderful fun. And I look at the kids today and I think, oh, I wish you could enjoy
the fun I had dancing! [laughs] But yes, I did, I always took an opportunity to go to a dance that I
could.
Charles Collins: Mary, do you remember in 1941, where you were at when Pearl Harbor
happened?
Mary: Well, I was of course in school, at that time.
Charles Collins: You’d be sophomore.
Mary: And I remember of hearing that on the radio and realizing that we were at war. 24:00
Yes.
Charles Collins: Probably as a young sophomore in high school, it didn’t really come home to
affect you that much or did it?
Mary: Well it didn’t until after I realized that…I had started dating Jim, and that he had enlisted,
and was going off to the service.
Charles Collins: Yes.
Mary: So then I kept closer contact with the war.
Charles Collins: Sure. What did you do as a high school teenager in those early years of the war,
did you do anything special?
Mary: Well, of course, many of the boys in my class, especially our graduating class, were
already in service or enlisting, and so much of it was left to we girls to have our own fun.
25:00 I can recall a friend of mine, driving to our house, and this was just before the term,
before the fall term started in school. And we decided we would drive from there into Athens and
come back home, just for something to do. Well, on the way there, everything went fine, but on
the way home, we had two flat tires. And course, we managed to get the tires changed, but it was
quite a chore. [laughs]
Charles Collins: I bet it was!
Mary: Two girls! Inexperienced. But we managed to do that. But for our senior year, this same
friend and I, Eleanor Hayward, was her name, and she and I had a room rented in Battle Creek
�and we worked as waitresses 26:00 in a restaurant, that summer. And earned…this is back
when you got a nickel tip.
Charles Collins: Yes, it was a lot.
Mary: Or a dime, if you were really making money. And we were paid $16 a week. And then our
tips on that probably got us somewhere around $20-25 a week.
Charles Collins: That was big money then.
Mary: Oh, yes, that was… But we had earned enough money that summer that I was able to buy
my class ring and my pictures, my senior pictures, paid for those.
Charles Collins: Yourself.
Mary: Myself. Yes.
Charles Collins: That’s interesting.
Mary: Yes, because we tried to be as independent as we could because we knew our folks didn’t
have much money.
Charles Collins: Well that’s what I was going to think, possibly had you not done that, you
wouldn’t have had a class ring or senior pictures.
Mary: That’s true, that’s true. Because when 27:00 I graduated from high school, I was offered
a $300 scholarship and I was planning on going into the Nursing Cadet Corps. At that time, you
know, during the war.
Charles Collins: Yes.
Mary: We had the Cadet Corps forming, and I thought, well, that’s a good way for me to get a
nursing degree and , maybe I can do it that way. Because my folks didn’t have the means to send
me on to school.
Charles Collins: Ok.
Mary: So, I was 17 years old when I graduated. And of course they would not take you in the
Nursing Cadet Corps until you were 18. Well, my birthday being the last of August, I had to wait
a while. But I wasn’t one to sit around, so I went to work for Civil Service. And I worked at
28:00 Percy Jones General Hospital briefly, then I was working as a clerk typist out at Fort
Custer. And this is where I got a vision of what it was like with these gentlemen coming back
from way, some of them coming back oh, maybe 36 hours from the battlefield. And they came
and then went to Percy Jones General Hospital. The critical ones went right there first, but there
were some that needed psychiatric care, and they were still housed there at Fort Custer. And we
�also had the prisoners of war, the German prisoners of war, housed at Fort Custer. So that was
my experience through World War II working in the supply office.
Charles Collins: Did you have much contact with the prisoners of war?
Mary: No, I didn’t because I was in the office working as a clerk typist. 29:00 But I knew that
they were there. Then shortly after the war was over, I was working for Equable Life Insurance
Company and that was downtown Battle Creek.
Charles Collins: Ok. Mary, do you remember VE Day? When it happened and where you were
at?
Mary: Well, I remember again, I remember hearing this on TV…not on TV, on the radio, and
reading about it in the paper. But I can remember that it was a happy day because we knew that
that was the end of World War II.
Charles Collins: For Germany. And then VJ Day was the end of the war.
Mary: Yes.
Charles Collins: Do you recall hearing about and reading about us bombing the Japanese with
the atom bombs?
Mary: Yes, 30:00 I do.
Charles Collins: And, what did you think about that?
Mary: Well, I thought, when I saw some of the pictures that were printed out that was a horrible
thing for civilians to be destroyed in that large a quantity. But then I also realized that we…the
war would just continue because there didn’t seem to be much let up and that we had to do
something drastic. But at the same time, we put faith in our leadership that our leaders knew best
what needed to be done. So we trusted them that this is what had to be done.
Charles Collins: And as VJ day happened, where were you?
Mary: Oh, I was in Battle Creek.
Charles Collins: And did you experience any of the revelry or…what happened that day?
Mary: No, I guess I just came home and thought I’d stay where it was safe! [laughs]
Charles Collins: 31:00 Probably was a wise idea! [laughs] During that wartime period, tell us
what happened as far as rationing was concerned, and that type of thing.
�Mary: Yes, we had books of course that rationed sugar and so forth, and gas, and so there was
much, where we would share things together like transportation and so forth, it was shared to cut
down on the consumption of gasoline. And I can remember silk hose—we couldn’t buy silk hose
anymore during the war because the silk went into making parachutes and so forth. And we girls
used to get a colored lotion and we’d put that on our legs, shave our legs and put this colored
lotion on, and draw a black strip up you know, 32:00 with eyebrow liner, to make it look like
we had a seam in the back! [laughs] And that would make it look like we had hose on.
Charles Collins: To make it look like you had silk hose on.
Mary: So those were some of the things and it was an all-out effort for the war. We did
everything we could. Saved oil or saved lard, and tin cans, anything that we could do to help the
war effort.
Charles Collins: Being in Battle Creek, there obviously was some USO things happening and so
on, did you go to any of those dances since you liked to dance?
Mary: Yes, occasionally we would, and, when I was serving as a clerk typist at Fort Custer, at
our place where we’d usually go to eat, there was a 33:00 gentleman there kind of tapping
around and dancing like and we girls said, “Oh, he’s just trying to show off,” because there’s a
group of us girls eating there. Well, later we found out that he was with the USO and he came to
our table and he said, “Well, do any of you girls like to dance?” And course I spoke up and said,
“Yes, I do.” And, a couple of the other girls did too. So he said, “Well, we’d like to use you in a
routine that we’re doing. Would that be ok with you girls? We’re going to practice on such and
such a night.” So we had gone and we’d practiced the steps and what the routine was going to be.
And we thought, gosh we’re going to be able perform in one of the…one of these performances
for the servicemen here. But they were shipped out before we could ever perform! [laughs]
Charles Collins: Do you 34:00 know what the man’s name was?
Mary: I don’t recall that.
Husband: Colabrusco.
Mary: Pardon?
Husband: Colabrusco.
Charles Collins: Colabrusco? See there?
Mary: Colabrusco! Well, I had to get that from my husband! [laughs] He has a better memory
than I do.
�Charles Collins: Yeah, obviously. Did you happen to see any of the headliners at that time, at the
USO performances and so on? Any of the big-name bands, or anything like that?
Mary: Well, I’m sure I did. You see, I haven’t rehearsed this over the years like my husband with
his, calls and reunions and so forth.
Charles Collins: Well, that’s ok.
Mary: But I’m sure many of the name bands were there.
Charles Collins: So as you continued on with your life after the Second World War, what did you
do? 35:00
Mary: Well, of course, Jim and I married—
Charles Collins: Tell us about that, how you met him after the war, and dating and so on.
Mary: Well, of course, as soon as he came home, he sought me out, and of course, he had
proposed. He had sent me money for a cedar chest and the cedar chest was at my parents’ home.
So, when I came to their home, why, he happened to be there to surprise me. And, so after
talking a certain length of time, with the family and all, and I said, “Well, you’d probably like to
see where some of your money went.” So I took him upstairs to my bedroom to show him the
cedar chest. So while we were up there, he 36:00 pulls these…the ring out and said would I
marry him.
Charles Collins: And of course you said, “No!” [laughs]
Mary: [laughs] Well, I said, that looked pretty sincere, so I said “yes!” [laughs]
Charles Collins: And you still have those rings.
Mary: And they were purchased in Pearl Harbor.
Charles Collins: Isn’t that something?
Mary: Yes.
Charles Collins: Yeah. So tell us about your wedding.
Mary: So our wedding was May the 18th, and this May the 18th it’ll be 61 years ago.
Charles Collins: Wow.
Mary: So that’s a long time.
Charles Collins: Yep.
�Mary: He was a slow learner—took me a long time to break him in! [laughs]
Charles Collins: Did you ever get in a fight?
Mary: Oh, any married couple, you get in squabbles! [laughs] But none sincere.
Charles Collins: Obviously not too serious, right? [laughs]
Mary: Right. But the day that we were married, I had made the wedding dresses and so forth, and
my wedding dress, I could only find 37:00 enough satin, now this is in 1946, and I could only
find enough satin to make the bodice part of the dress and the rest had to be made out of netting.
And so, I did the best I could with the material I had. And then, the day of the wedding, we went
to the woods, which is across the road from my folks’ property, and it had many dogwood in
blossom.
Charles Collins: Oh, yes!
Mary: And I thought, those dogwood are so beautiful! And we gathered the dogwood and put
them in baskets that we had got from the greenhouse and used those as our alter flowers. And
they were beautiful.
Charles Collins: And you made your own wedding dress.
Mary: And I made my own wedding dress and veil and the flower girl and the ring bearer and the
pillow. And the pillow that 38:00 I made, I have refurbished that and our granddaughter used
that!
Charles Collins: Oh, isn’t that neat?
Mary: Yes. But so it was an evening wedding in the Congregational Church at Athens and
Reverend Perrin performed the ceremony and his three brothers [nods toward husband] were in
the service and my two brothers at that time, were in the wedding. And of course a nephew and a
little niece and two of Jim’s nieces were in the wedding and my sister was the maid of honor and
then I had 3 that were the bridesmaids.
Charles Collins: So did you have a big crowd?
Mary: Yes. I come from a large family! [laughs] But it was one of the first weddings held in a
church 39:00 there in that community in a long, long time, that I remember. In fact, some of
the people said, “Oh, you had a fancy wedding.” Well I didn’t think it was so fancy, I don’t think
it cost much over $150! [laughs]
Charles Collins: [laughs] Nowadays it’s $10,000! Well, Mary, as you were married, where did
you and your husband live?
�Mary: We lived in a two-room apartment, upstairs apartment, in Battle Creek. And our
transportation was a Model A Ford. My folks had never had a Model A Ford. [SKIP] Jim said he
was going to buy a Model A Ford, I thought, my word, he’s taking me back to the horse and
buggy days almost. 40:00 But in World War II you had to have your name, after World War II,
you had to have your name on a list to even get a used car!
Charles Collins: That’s right.
Mary: So, this car, my brother knew someone who had a car they would be willing to sell and
that was this Model A Ford. And it had leather bucket seats, and well I call them bucket seats,
and yellow spoke wheels! [laughs]
Charles Collins: Oh wow! Pretty neat, huh?
Mary: So we wish we had it today! [laughs] So that was our first car and it served the purpose
well.
Charles Collins: And did you work then or—?
Mary: Yes, I did.
Charles Collins: Or did you become a homemaker?
Mary: No, I worked at the Equable Life Insurance Company, and that was on the 11th floor of the
Security National Bank Building, downtown Battle Creek. And Jim was going to [unintelligible]
Business School at that time. I came 41:00 home from work one day, and here was Jim and the
books were all over the living room floor and I thought, what happened? You know, that here the
books are and he looks like he’s not going on to school, you know, what’s happening here? What
have I married, you know? Somebody’s [unintelligible] in the middle of things? [laughs] But he
found that he was feeling changes adjusting to civilian life, married life and now, whether he
wanted to go on to school or not. And he didn’t want to see himself sitting inside the rest of his
life doing nothing, well, doing something, rather, the rest of his life. He just didn’t know quite
sure what. But anyway he went to work for Sinclair Oil Company in Battle Creek, so we worked
there 42:00 until he and his brother decided to join in business in Athens.
Charles Collins: And did you continue to work for the insurance company?
Mary: I worked until I became about 3 or 4 months pregnant.
Charles Collins: Ok.
Mary: And then I quit because back then you didn’t work till delivery time.
Charles Collins: Right.
�Mary: You just worked until you began to show, as they call it. And then you quit your work. So
then I stayed home and became a mother and was a mother for 2 children: a daughter and a son.
And we were living in Athens. And of course, I was an independent person at that period of time
in my life, I liked to do everything myself, kind of like a 2-year-old kid. And I didn’t want
everybody to know my business and I thought, if I go and live in Athens, I’m going to be
43:00 where everybody knows my business and I didn’t move to Athens very happy. You
know, I really didn’t think I’d like it. But I thought, well, that’s where he seems to be destined to
go. So I went. And spent our time there rearing the children and becoming involved in
community. I was quite a volunteer or, they twisted your arm, as they say. And then as time
moved on and the kids grew up through their stages of life, why, I saw that Athens was the best
place to raise them. I thought he had chosen well. But in the meantime, our son was just starting
school 44:00 and I was diagnosed with tuberculosis.
Charles Collins: Ok. So you spent a little time recovering from that.
Mary: Yes, back at that time, you had to be hospitalized.
Charles Collins: Yes.
Mary: It didn’t matter if your [prognosis] was negative or not, you had to be hospitalized. So, I
had quite a rest period [laughs] for 11 months.
Charles Collins: What hospital did you go to?
Mary: Kimble Sanitarium. At that time, it was a sanitarium at Battle Creek. People came from
Detroit, I had a roommate that was from Detroit when I first went in. And of course that was
quite an experience, to think, oh my goodness, I’m leaving two young kids here at home! And
have to worry about them.
Charles Collins: So for a while, Jim was mother and father both!
Mary: Yes, I think so! 45:00 [laughs] But a girl that we had that babysat for the children,
which was infrequent, I didn’t leave them much, she came. In fact, her mother was working for
us in the business. She was doing some office work. And one day when Jim went to the office,
she said, “Well, why don’t you have Ruth Ellen just come and stay with the children and she can
take them to school, and be there with them.” And it was the perfect set-up because then the
children were able to be at home.
Charles Collins: Sure.
Mary: And we had a grandma in the area, which was the mother of friends of ours and she would
take our son in the afternoon. Course, our son, at that time, he was reading, 46:00 and he
�seemed to grasp words well. And he liked to read the Funnies. And so he would get the Funnies
[laughs] as soon as they came, and read them, and then go back out and play.
__________: Was this before kindergarten?
Mary: This was before kindergarten.
__________: Whoa!
Mary: So the kids, where he stayed after school, you know, they thought it was fun to see him
read the Funnies to them. So they let him read the Funnies [laughs]. But it was years later that I
learned the teacher that he had in kindergarten, that one day she was reading a story to the
children, and of course, Rod was standing at her elbow, reading along with her, that is, visually,
and she was 47:00 embellishing the story to make it and he finally, after she read several
pages, he stepped back and looked at her and said, “Mrs. [unintelligible], don’t you know how to
read?” [laughs]
Charles Collins: [laughs] Cause she…there was words coming out that he didn’t see on the
paper, right?
Mary: Yes. [laughs] So I was happy for her to share that because I had missed out on his
kindergarten completely, I wasn’t home. So I was glad to know that little incident that the
teacher had to experience.
Charles Collins: So, while you were at the sanatorium, there, did you form any friends?
Mary: Yes, I did. And one of the girls came from Detroit, and she was with me several months.
Because my involvement was in the lower right lobe, it wasn’t throughout the rest of the lung.
48:00 It was there. And they kept me in bed because it would be like swinging a broken arm,
they couldn’t have the diaphragm hitting the lungs and have me walking around. So, bedtime 24
hours a day for 5 months.
Charles Collins: 5 months.
Mary: Well, really it was 6 months, because I’d gone to Ann Arbor for lung surgery and they
excised that from my lung.
Charles Collins: Ok. Yes.
Mary: And so it was 6 months before they would let me out of bed once a day.
_______: So you had to learn how to walk all over again.
Mary: Well, this was an experience, for sure. But when I was in Ann Arbor, they said, “Well,
you can call your husband, and let him know what time you’re going to have surgery 49:00
�tomorrow.” Well, the part that [laughs]…there wasn’t a telephone in the room, you know, and it
was probably the distance of, oh, the front door here to probably the windows in the kitchen area
here. I don’t know how many feet is that?
Charles Collins: Oh, about 20.
Mary: 20? Well, it was about 20 feet from my bed to down the hall where the phone was. And
the nurses were busy because there were 4 of us in this room. And they couldn’t be in there, they
knew we were all going to surgery sometime the following day. So I thought, well, Lord, I guess
it’s you and me down that hall. I gotta make a call. So I got out of bed, stood up, course I’d been
getting out of bed 50:00 to stand and move to a chair that had a bed pan on it and then back to
my bed. That was my toilet facilities. So I thought, well here we go. Went down that hall, just
fine, came back, didn’t tremble, didn’t get wobbly, or nothing.
Charles Collins: Good.
________Female voice: Wow! After 5-6 months.
Charles Collins: So now you’ve spent 5 months in bed, or 6 total.
Mary: Six, well, another month when I got back cause I went to Ann Arbor, and another month
back to the hospital.
Charles Collins: And after that time, what did you do?
Mary: Course when we were in the hospital, we did crafts, you know?
Charles Collins: Sure.
Mary: Occupational crafts. Ceramics, and needlework, and that type thing. But I’m an avid
reader, 51:00 so I read a great deal. And of course you had a roommate. And the room was
kind of U-shaped, so there would be really 5 girls that could kind of chat back and forth a little
bit.
Charles Collins: Sure. So, you were there 6 months and you had about 5 months more to go.
Mary: Yes, well, that’s right. I went there 11 months. Because then you sort of came…your
exercise [unintelligible]
Charles Collins: So you went through a rehab period of time.
Mary: Yes, so that was—
Charles Collins: Then you had the opportunity to get done and go home.
�Mary: Yes, but I think for…you see, when I went in, I would think, now, you know, I wanted to
be a good mother, I want to stay home with my kids. And how come that lady, who was a
neighbor, 52:00 she can go up to the tavern and leave her kids and everything else and Lord,
you’re putting me in the hospital and here she is out there ramming around. I had that kind of
little tension there, you know? But I thought, well, you don’t get well with a bad attitude. That
was one of the first things they said to us.
Charles Collins: Ok.
Mary: That your mental attitude has a lot to do with your recovery.
Charles Collins: And it does.
Mary: It does. Because, there was a lady that was around in the other section, and every day she
cried. Because she couldn’t be home and spend her time with her family. But I felt that I had to
trust that I would be taken care of.
Charles Collins: And as you got well and left 53:00 for home, what did you do?
Mary: Well first of all, I had to get used to hearing the refrigerator run! [laughs] I had to get used
to someone sleeping with me! [laughs]
Charles Collins: Sure!
_________: Which is odd!
Mary: Yes, it is, when you’re used to sleeping alone! [laughs]
Charles Collins: Sure.
Mary: And all the noises, you’d be surprised at the noises that are in a home that all of a sudden
you have to get used to.
_________: You take them for granted.
Mary: And they’re taken for granted. And I realized how weak I was when I would get up and
try to get breakfast. And then, I would get breakfast and the kids would get off to school, and I
would sit down or lie down and rest a while.
_______: Did you have anybody in to help you?
Mary: I could have but I didn’t have because I knew that that was part 54:00 of my
rehabilitation. That I needed to regain the strength. And it was the right thing to do that because I
just gradually…at first I thought maybe I’ll never be strong again, but gradually I grew.
�_____: How did the kids get along when you was gone?
Mary: Well, I think they did fairly well because they had the same babysitter and they had the
same home setting. It’s just that mom wasn’t there.
______: Did they have a problem getting reacquainted with you after 11 months?
Mary: I don’t think so. I didn’t sense it. No, I didn’t sense it. And Jim’s shaking his head no.
________: I was going to say because they were quite young.
Mary: Yes. Yes. Kindergarten and first grade.
______: That’s a long time for a child that age. To you know, not to see somebody.
_____Mary Martha?: Had they been allowed to visit you? 55:00
Mary: Yes, well, they could come and visit outside. See, they weren’t allowed to come into the
facility itself.
Charles Collins: Right.
Mary: But when it was summer weather, and I could go outside, then they came.
_____: Oh, then they got to see you during that 11 months.
Mary: Well first it was through the winter months, from August on through till the following
spring and then they could come. But then, let’s see, at Thanksgiving time, I was allowed at 24
hour visit home. But now that 24 hours included going home and getting back. And
institutionalization is an interesting thing because you become institutionalized when you spend
that much time in a building and with a group of people. So I found that when I went home,
56:00 I didn’t sleep well because there were noises and so forth I wasn’t used to. I was glad to
be home but at the same time I knew I had to get back to the institution to get well. To have them
let me go home.
Charles Collins: So after that 11 months and you got home, what went on?
Mary: Well, of course it was the adjustment to getting back to home life and everything, and we
had built a garage house, and I’ll put that into its perspective, but when our children were very,
very small, we had built this garage house with the anticipation 57:00 of building a house
there. And it was a new development in Athens.
Charles Collins: OK.
�Mary: But we needed a double-car garage and we thought, well, we can do that with the funds
we have. And we borrowed $1,800 from a brother, and he graciously loaned us that, and we paid
it back with a monthly pay. And then there was a lady who had lost her husband, and she called
one day wondering if we would be willing to sell our garage house. Well, we had never thought
about it, and so I said, “Well, let us think about it.” And then a little bit later, she called again.
And I thought, well, she’s quite sincere about this. So we thought well, if we could 58:00
possibly get some land that we had looked at, but the man who owned the land had the name of
Shingledecker [laughs]—that’s quite a name!
Charles Collins: Yeah!
Mary: He just didn’t want to sell any land because he might want to raise some potatoes at 90
years of age. Well, anyway, we finally decided we would sell the house and we rented a small
house, out at the edge of town. And it was while we lived in that small house, that I was then
admitted to the hospital and discovered that I had TB. And so you see how God seems to work
things in sequences and so the fact that we moved to the larger place, it had 2 bedrooms, that
gave 59:00 the girl staying with the children a bedroom, and she and our daughter had that
bedroom and Jim and our son had the other bedroom. And Jim came in, I remember, one time he
said, Rodney didn’t like to sleep on that one pillow because it had “Hers” on it! [laughs]
Charles Collins: [laughs] Ok.
Mary: Oh, so much for his reading. So, kind of after this stint in the hospital, then we were in the
process of thinking about building. And thought, well, we did have a chance to buy the property
that we wanted out of town, so we thought that would be a good place to maybe build a house.
And so it’s out in the country, we call it the suburbs of Athens. And we built our home,
1:00:00 but we couldn’t get all of the money for the mortgage because it didn’t have a fire
hydrant next to it. But it had a river flowing through the backyard. [laughs]
Charles Collins: [laughs] Ok!
Mary: So as the home progressed, we did have some financing where we could get the shell of it
up.
Charles Collins: Ok.
Mary: And we thought, well, we’ll let it set through the winter until the following spring and see
if we can get it financed and finished. So, we did. And so we were able to build in a spot where
we really thought we could enjoy living in. And we have, we’ve enjoyed it very much.
Charles Collins: And you still live in that same home?
Mary: We still live in that same 1:01:00 home.
�Charles Collins: Wow! So you lived there, 40-some years.
Mary: Close to 50, about 49 years. Yes.
Charles Collins: I bet that’d be fun to move.
Mary: Oh! I only plan to move feet first. [laughs] But in all the years of the kids growing up
through school, we became involved in volunteer work, and after I got out of the san, I felt a
strong urge to become more involved in the church. So we became church leaders or youth
leaders, as it’s called. [laughs] And Mary Martha was one of our young people in the group.
Charles Collins: All right!
Mary: And we used to take retreats in the fall and go up to Pilgrim Haven or Silver…Lake
1:02:00 and spend a weekend there with the youth and that was really a very pleasant thing
for us to do, but now, as you think about it, with the responsibilities with children and things
happening and lawsuits, it would be a challenge to do. But they were a wonderful group to work
with. And we did that about ten years, so we’ve been involved in church work a great deal. And I
think the church work has permeated through our children because our daughter has become a
major in music and both vocal and keyboard, she plays for churches and so forth.
Charles Collins: Good!
Mary: And our son is a pastor so I think that work probably influenced them and I think Mary
Martha was a real influence on our son behaving in class. [laughs] I think she made him write
100 times or more that he would not be making…he would not be 1:03:00 talking so much in
class? Was that it? [looks toward Mary Martha]
Mary Martha: Something to that affect, yes. He was in my first teaching class when I graduated
from college.
Mary: And so that I have in his scrapbook. He kept that all the years and gave it back to us, it’s
in his scrapbook. So with all of that and I became very active in the TB Association, became
their Christmas Seal chairperson.
Charles Collins: Oh right!
Mary: And then their president. So, for the Calhoun Country Tuberculosis Association. So that
gave me quite a bit of experience in… Because it was through their x-ray machine, that they used
to do x-rays throughout the county that my TB was discovered. And the classmate that I used to
run around with when I was admitted to Kimble Sanitarium, 1:04:00 she was one of the girls
that worked there.
Charles Collins: All right!
�Mary: So that was a comfort too. But being involved in the TB Association and church and other
organizations that seemed to come along, that was a way of expressing my gratitude for the
people. That was something that sort of bothered me, I thought, well how do you repay so many
people?
Charles Collins: Yes!
Mary: You know, just like a light bulb one day, it said, pass it on!
Charles Collins: [laughs] Pass it on.
Mary: Pass it on.
Charles Collins: Help somebody else.
Mary: That’s right.
Charles Collins: That’s right.
Mary: That’s right.
Charles Collins: How do you repay it on? You help somebody else.
Mary: That’s right, you pass it on. So then as our children were graduating from college, and our
son was still in college, I thought, you know, I’ve done so much volunteer work, 1:05:00 I
guess I’ll do something a little different, I’ll take a class over at K…Kellogg Community College
was giving adult classes over at Union City. So I thought, well, I guess I’ll go over there just for
fun and take a class at night. So I signed up for English 101, that’s usually what everybody takes
when they start college. So I took a class in English and I kept taking another class and another
class and finally the prof said, well, you folks need to go visit Kellogg Community College and
see what you think of it, and you should continue on with your courses, because there were some
kids, most of them, 1:06:00 were college-age kids and there was just one other gentleman and
myself that were adults in this class. In fact, the very first class session we had, it was Chuck
Spore who ran the John Deere Implement business in Athens and his daughter was in the class,
and she said, “Well, Mrs. Crowell,” she said, “my dad would like to come to this class, but he
didn’t want to come and be the only adult.” So, she says, “I’m gonna go home and tell him
you’re here!” So she did, so he came!
Charles Collins: All right!
Mary: So we had, at one point in our English, we had to write some poetry. And we had gone
into Battle Creek to visit KCC at that time, but I had left our car at the filling station to be
serviced, so 1:07:00 we all rode in his car to Battle Creek. And when we came back, I said,
“Well, if you’d just let me off at the filling station, I’ll pick up our car.” And he said, “Ok.” So
�we pulled into the filling station which is after hours, you know, it was dark outside and using
the car lights and so forth, and he said, “Well, just a minute, I’d like to read you all the poem I
wrote.” So we said, “Ok.” So as we sat there with the dome light on in the car, and he was
starting to read his poetry, a police car drives up! [laughs] And the police says, “Oh, I was
wondering what was going on here.” [laughs] Well, of course we told him, the gentleman is
letting me off to pick up my car, because what policeman would believe 1:08:00 that you
were reading poetry? [laughs] Well anyway, it was a lot of fun!
____: If he’d believed it, you really want him to be a policeman! [laughs]
Mary: [laughs] So anyway, as I was progressing on through these one-course stints, you know,
through college material, I was talking with our daughter one weekend, and she said, “Well,
Mom,” she said, “You’re getting enough credits, you ought to do something with it.” Well, of
course the instructor had told me the same thing. And I thought, well, I was doing this just for
fun. But she said, “Well, you thought about being a nurse at one time. Why don’t you look into
that?” So I thought, well, I guess I will. So I looked 1:09:00 into nursing and I started taking
nursing courses.
________: Now how old was you then?
Mary: In my mid-40s, about 47-8. So I thought, well, you know. So I was taking all the courses,
prerequisites and so forth. But I transferred because my daughter was getting married and my
schedule was pretty heavy because we also had a paper route, that we had for our son to have in
the summer or weekend so he could have a job to help…Because we didn’t believe in just
handing everything to our children. We believed in kind of having them have a part in it. So you
see, when I would go to KCC for a particular class, I’d always schedule that in the morning.
1:10:00 Then I’d go the Inquire and pick up the bundles that needed to be dropped off for the
people out through our area, so I became a bundle…
_______: A bundle lady! [laughs]
Mary: [laughs] I guess, they called me bundle lady ever since, I guess. Anyway, so that kind of
worked just fine, to do that for a while. But again, I took time off when our daughter got married,
she got married in December. Then when I got ready to go back to KCC, they said, “Well we
don’t have any openings.” And they had assured me there’d be an opening. And I thought, well,
now what do I do. Well I was kind of devastated to think, you know I could do that, but again,
you know, the Lord has a hand in it. So I thought, well, I’m going over to 1:11:00 KVCC in
Kalamazoo, that means a longer drive, but just see what things are. So I went over to KVCC and
continued my courses. And you know, how happy I was, because I got clinical experience at
Borgess and Bronson and saw open heart surgery, all those things I wouldn’t have seen in Battle
�Creek. Now, I don’t mean to put Battle Creek down, it’s just that they were different types of
hospitals at that time.
___: Yes.
Mary: So I got my nursing, I finished an LPN degree, wrote state boards to see if I could do it,
you know, in a certain length of time, I passed it OK, went on a year more for my RN and passed
that.
____: Oh my goodness.
Mary: First time. So then I thought, well, now I can start work. Well I did and how 1:12:00
great it seemed to get a paycheck for what I was paying to learn! [laughs] Well, I worked about 6
years in the hospital and then I wanted to go into home nursing, visiting nurse, and that I
thoroughly enjoyed because that fit me very well.
___: You just worked when you wanted to then, didn’t you?
Mary: Well, I worked steady. So I was on the road, driving, in all kinds of weather to see
patients. And now my hospitalization fit in. You know, my experience in the hospital, I knew
exactly what a patient was going through. But I never talked about my stint, you know, I never
let that on to any patient, because we didn’t talk about ourselves, or we didn’t talk about politics.
But you know, 1:13:00 there would just seem to be a ???? that a patient and I had.
_____: Well, you know or you’d been through just about whatever they had. You can relate to it.
Mary: Yes. So I could see that my time was valuable.
Charles Collins: So how long did you spend as a home nurse?
Mary: Oh, it was about 18 years.
Charles Collins: Really?
____: Wow.
Charles Collins: So are you still doing that?
Mary: Well, I keep my licenses current. I keep writing my exams to stay current. I still keep
getting calls to come work. I even got one from Alaska!
Charles Collins: Really? So that’s too bad you didn’t take that! [laughs]
�Mary: It wasn’t a call, you know, it was not an audible call but it was an appeal, Alaska needed
nurses. And if I were younger, yes, I’d do that, but I could 1:14:00 still do part time nursing if
I wanted to but I feel we still need to have our time together.
Charles Collins: Sure you do.
Mary: So that’s kind of where we’re at right now. And of course our children are in Texas and
Kansas and that lends itself to travel.
Charles Collins: Well now, it’s been a pleasure doing your interview! And you know, for a lady
that said she didn’t have much to say, an hour and a half is pretty good isn’t it?
Mary: Well I’d like to say I still, I’m still doing community work.
Charles Collins: Good!
Mary: I’m a board member for Calhoun County Senior Allocation Committee. This is a millage
that’s been voted in for service to seniors. And there a board that’s been formed by
commissioners, we have commissioners representing each facet of the county. So 1:15:00 I
am privileged to serve on that board as we allocate funds for other people serving the public. So
I’m still—
Charles Collins: That’s great.
Mary: Filling a need.
Charles Collins: And you still teach Sunday School, yes?
Mary: Oh, yes, I’ve been trying to get out of that job! [laughs]
Charles Collins: That’s a fun job!
___: Now you haven’t covered other talents you have. I hear you’re pretty good in art.
Mary: Well, I guess, when Jim does his sawing, I do my work on the other end of the ping pong
table and I do weaving of rugs, which I an inter-braiding, so that I find a good winter-time
hobby.
___: And you sew.
Mary: And I sew. Yes.
Charles Collins: Well you learned to sew rather early in life, being that you made your wedding
dress.
�Mary: Yes, in fact, my sister and I would always buy material 1:16:00 just alike and we
dressed alike every day of school and people thought we were twins. Because we dressed alike.
But we did it merely because we could cut to an advantage, having one bolt or 2 or 3 yards of
material making our dresses and skirts and so forth.
___: Now what do you do with the rugs and stuff that you make?
Mary: Those, I usually have given those away. And I don’t think Mary Martha has one yet.
[laughs]
Mary Martha: Not yet!
Charles Collins: Well it’s time.
Mary: Well I guess she’s got her bid in. [laughs]
1:16:41
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Crowell, Mary Louise Mitchell (Interview transcript and video), 2007
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Crowell, Mary Louise Mitchell
Description
An account of the resource
Mary Louise Crowell shares what life was like at home prior to, during, and after WW II. With the US involvement in WW II, Mary explains what it meant to take an active role in the war at home like saving lard, oil, tin cans, and using ration books. During the war, Mary worked for the Civil Service at Fort Custer as a clerk typist and attended many of the USO events. When WW II ended, Mary married her soldier, Jim Crowell, and together they raised two children.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer)
Collins, Carol (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Navy spouses
Military spouses
Civil service
Veterans
United Service Organizations (U.S.)
Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American
Women
Language
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eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2007-05-15
Identifier
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CrowellM
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2cb965488f7741c1f00cad3a5ab80f88.mp4
b7a9a7a318d408d3002e27c954042e58
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/79489fd425c69301c1b56dd954703356.pdf
c30c9b743abbe1654e87c23e38cd8770
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Vietnam, Cold War
Interviewee: Linda Crumback
Length of Interview: 01:06:54
Background
She was born September 27, 1947 in East Grand Rapids.
She grew up in Caledonia and her family has lived there since 1865.
She still lives in the house her grandfather built, but the farmland has since been sold off.
She went to high school in Caledonia and graduated in 1965.
When she graduated, she went immediately to Grand Valley State College for the
summer.
She would get a job there as a lab technician in the biology department.
At the time, they did have the lake complex, but the bridge wasn’t built. They did
however have Loutit Hall, where she spent most of her time, for physics, biology and
chemistry.
While she was going to school she lived at home and drove 40 miles every day to school
and was glad when she was done, because she had had 3 close calls driving over there.
But she didn’t mind driving.
She attended GVSC from the summer of 1965 and graduated August of 1968.
There wasn’t much going on at GVSC as far as war protests.
Most of the conflict she had was with siblings. The closest one was 9 years difference
from her.
She focused on her studies and didn’t really get involved in politics, though she had her
opinions on some things.
Once she graduated, she went into pre-med and was going to medical school. She
discovered that it was hard to get loans, so she tried getting jobs at different labs with no
success.
Soon she discovered that the military would help you go to medical school, so she
decided that was the route she was going to take.
So she took the different tests for the different branches and was finally accepted by the
Air Force.
She enlisted in the Air Force in 1970.
The family was proud and thought it was a good thing to do. Her brothers who had all
been in the Army had said to her “Don’t volunteer” and her friends didn’t say much.
They thought it was an interesting thing to do.
When she signed up for it, she thought that she was going to see the world and get some
training. Things were not what they appeared to be, but more than anything she just
wanted to get in and get into medical school.
When she signed up for it she did not think of it in any connection to the War in Vietnam.
(6:55)
�
She did go in and had the 10 week wonders, officer candidate school in 10 weeks instead
of the usual 12.
While she was there, one of the people in charge had asked who was there because they
got their papers and about half raised their hand.
It was not the easiest thing to get into and she was actually rejected for it twice before.
But she finally got a call from her recruiting officer letting her know that she had got in.
She was surprised. She just assumed that she wasn’t going.
That had taken pictures of the women, but not of the men.
Training (9:05)
They had sent her to Lackland Air Force Base, in San Antonio, for Officer’s training
School.
At that time, the women were a separate squadron. There were about 60 women.
When they had classroom studies, they would have it with the men, but any physical
training they did, they did separately.
The exercises they did were different as well. They had to do 5 BX, which were jumping
jacks, sit-ups and things like that.
Classroom work consisted of military history, training and speaking. They also
emphasized discipline.
When you first got there you had chicken stripes, which meant that you had to salute
everything with stripes.
Adjusting to military life was not difficult for her. Being away from home was the
hardest part. It was fun being with the gals.
There were no problems with the male cadets.
The men and women would eat together as well. They all had 15 minutes to eat.
This first stage of training would last 12 weeks.
After that she went home. Her family came down for the graduation ceremony and she
drove back home with them while she was on leave.
After that she would get her first assignment, in Florida
Active Duty (12:30)
Florida
She would be placed at the McDill Air Force Base in Tampa, FL.
She got on the job training at the time. She did not get the course she should have had;
she would get it later, after she knew what she was doing.
She was in a little Aero Space Defense Command and worked on a 2 person crew and
basically they watched for sea launched ballistic missiles.
She lived off base and worked shift work, 8 hour shifts 5 days a week.
Given her solitary job, she did not have much interaction with other people on the base.
She was the only woman in that detachment.
The maintenance crew was all men.
�
The computers were new to her. So when they came in and said they had to replace a
card in the computer. Of course the only card she knew of was made of paper, but when
they opened it up and showed her she got the idea.
She doesn’t remember a lot of false alarms. But she does remember times when there
would be alarms caused when the people near New Orleans burned their sugar fields. For
some reason that would set off alarms for them.
It was an interesting time, with a 2 person crew, waiting for nothing to happen.
She did have a couple people tell her that they thought women shouldn’t be in the Air
Force. She thinks she convinced them otherwise.
She would converse with the enlisted men that she worked with to help pass the time.
The enlisted men would have to do the watching, while the officer was there mostly to
make decisions.
She had that job for about a year and a half.
During that time, while off duty there would be get togethers with other members of the
attachment and she went to see the sights of Florida.
After that year and a half she went to Denver, Colorado, to the 2nd Communications
Squadron.
Colorado (17:30)
At the time, she couldn’t have said much about it, but now she can tell us that it is the
defense support program.
They use the satellites that were in geo-synchronous orbit to watch the world for missile
launches.
This was quite a bit bigger than what she had experienced in Florida. There were about
500 people there.
There were other women there and one of them she went through OTS was there as well.
She got there just before she had, and there were a few others but not many.
While she was there she was the Deputy Director on D crew. There were 12 people in D
crew, sitting there receiving the data from the satellites and sending out all the necessary
data to where it needed to go.
There was much more to know working there than her old job. You had to know how
everything worked and operated, not just how to operated it.
When she first got there, there was only one satellite in orbit, so they would only get data
every couple of hours. During that time, a civilian would train the crew. She would have
training before that to help her, a four week course.
She ended up living in off base housing again, because the officer’s quarters were full.
Not one time in 22 years did she have to live on base.
She did not run into any friction of her being a female in the armed forces.
The crew was all about the same age, except for the enlisted, they might have been a little
older.
She and her friend ended up being the Senior Directors of two of the worst units. It was
difficult working in them, but she made it through.
She was told by her previous Senior Director that she was given the job because they
believed that she could do the job and keep it going.
�
It was interesting, as far as the operations, they were all standard and nothing really
exciting happened during that time.
The morale level at the bases she worked at was good. The officers were qualified and
there was a new system and it was fun to explore.
She was doing an operation and everything was supposed to go ok and suddenly there
were arrows up everywhere. Her director was there for the whole thing and SAC was
called, and they tried to decide if they wanted to bring in bombers, but nothing came of it.
When she left Colorado, she was three years into the four.
After that she was sent to Shemya Air Force Base, which is on one of the islands in the
Aleutians. She and another woman were the first women ever assigned there.
Alaska (26:15)
The island was two by four miles. It was all men except for the general electric girls
there, who welcomed them and told them what to expect.
There were about 2,000 people there when she first arrived.
The majority of the people there were taking care of the rest who actually had the
operations there, and a lot of the operations at the time were monitoring Russia.
She was also space tracking.
She was flown out there on Reeves Aleutians Airlines. It was quite an experience as it is
foggy most of the time and very cold. The pilots were really good at their job.
When you wanted to go on leave, you would leave on military transports, which would
be the only way they got fresh food and things that they needed.
They would bring in barges during the summer months to bring in other things, like
trucks. A semi came off the barge, it was strange.
Collecting bottles off the shore would be one of their pastimes. They would collect
1950’s Coke bottles and they would find sake bottles along the shore. There was nothing
to do there, so that entertained them.
Almost everything was in a single building, from administration, to sleeping quarters, to
the mess hall, everything.
They did have an NCO club that was relatively new and it was nice.
All the organizations on the base had their own little building. One of them was built
with two little huts put together and a fireplace was put in it. It’s where the squadron got
together.
That’s where they spent their off time was in those places.
She would be stationed there for a year.
That ended right around the same time as her enlistment term. She didn’t think about
getting out at all.
She just got her next assignment, which brought her back to Denver.
The range of the temperatures was 50-20 degrees. They were not allowed to go too far
off base or you could fall and freeze out there.
The flowers there were very beautiful.
The wind made everything very cold. There was snow, in varying amounts.
They would have tremors there too once in a while.
�
The General Electric girls were there as maintenance. They came from a general
contractor and worked 12 hours a day, 7 days a week. Their job was maintaining the
antenna and the ladies came to work as secretaries.
The job she had there was very interesting. The equipment there was older, which made
the job more hands on. Later, when new equipment was brought in, it just wasn’t the
same.
It was also interesting to see the men when they were getting ready to go home,
especially in the last two weeks. They probably did some things they wouldn’t normally
have done.
When they were going there, there was a sign that said “Welcome Linda and Terry”, well
Alaska’s only congressman was on the plane, so their names came down and his went up.
There was no trouble with her squadron about her being a woman in the Air Force, but
there was one other woman who came up, who was assigned alone in the administration
and she had some trouble.
There was one individual who should not have been sent to the island. He had already
been in some trouble on the mainland. He was an African American.
He got upset with her and asked if he was different and there was tension that way, so
instead of letting her handle it, one of the men told the individual that he owed her an
apology.
Well, this was the wrong thing to say, because this individual got really upset and that
night he came into the room and tried to stab the man who had talked to him, and
accidentally stabbed his roommate instead.
She had planned on going to a movie the next day and was advised against it. But she felt
it was necessary for people to know that she was not going to put up with that kind of
stuff.
There had also been rumors going around that they had all been flown out of there
immediately, and she wanted to make sure those rumors were put to rest. (36:50)
She ended up going to the movies with four men and there were not any African
Americans in the movie that night. The individual who stabbed the man was eventually
caught and put into custody. The man who was stabbed was taken to the mainland so he
could recover.
She believes that if they had just let her do her job, things would have been ok.
That was the first time she saw that kind of racial tension and the only time she would
deal with something to that magnitude.
After Alaska she was sent back to Colorado, to 2nd Com, but this time she would work as
a computer programmer.
Colorado (40:00)
The job she had before was not to her liking. So she changed careers, which was not
really available to women at the time, but they managed to get her switched.
Her job would be to do the software and testing the software of the system.
The biggest thing she can see is the difference in capacity, between now and then. She
worked with a system that had 2 meg of high speed and 1 meg low speed. She had 64kb
to herself.
�
Nowadays, in your telephone you probably have more memory to work with. The
changes in hardware since then have simply been amazing.
She had a training course for it right there and she was the only gal in it.
She was never the kind of person to get up early to go to class, but the guys seemed to
want it that way. So she would fall asleep at night, while writing her program.
The operators would have this wild printer going and the paper would just shoot out. It
would turn out to be one of the trainees not doing something right and they would quickly
turn off the printer to avoid mass chaos.
She was there for 5 years. During that time, she remained a captain, but rose from a
computer software developer to chief of software development.
They did one project, where they did the software instead of contracting it out. They got
compliments on what a good job they did.
By the end, she was in charge of 25 people. Most of them were officers. There were not
too many enlisted that worked there.
She made a lot of friends and had a lot of fun and she really loved Denver.
She completed that in 1980.
After the Soviet threat starts to diminish, the Air Force begins cutting down on people.
But this would be after she got out and would not have to worry about those kinds of
things.
It was not a typical thing to work in one place for so long, but they wanted her to stay
there because she was training others. She thinks it didn’t hurt any either, because she
was able to make the next rank.
After she finished that, they selected her to get a Master’s degree. So she was sent out
Monterey, California to the Naval Post Graduate School. It was not a bad assignment by
any means.
They have their own campus after they acquired the Delmont Hotel and built a military
base, with housing that she did not get, yet again.
At that time, you went to the college as a civilian and there were a lot of foreigners there.
The degree she was getting was sponsored by the Joint Command Control
Communication.
She was a little more senior than most of the others at the college.
She took a few classes in each of the required topics, but they were not experts in any one
thing.
The program lasted 18 months.
Since most of them had been out of college for a while, they gave them classes to get
them back into the swing of things.
Once she had her degree, she was really involved in looking at the National Command
Control and how to improve it.
She would return to a staffing job.
Her system was taken over by the SAC, Strategic Air Command, so she was sent to SAC
headquarters at Offutt Air Force Base, in Omaha, Nebraska.
Nebraska (48:00)
�
When she got there and there were some of the people she had worked with were there.
They informed her that they were creating airspace and many of them would be
transferred soon.
She would work there for a year and then be transferred to Space Command.
She would do planning for new software while she was there. Her area was warning and
tracking systems.
She was there from 1983-1986.
Things were discussed about the Soviets, but there was no real concern about going to
war and most things kind of stayed on the same level.
By that time, things had really changed for women and the military service.
When she went in, you couldn’t have children. Now you can.
There are also more fields opening for women at the time as well.
There was nothing during that time that really stood out.
From there, she went to the Naval Post Graduate School again, as a curriculum officer for
the classes she had taken. It was an interesting job as she would work for the Navy and
not the Air Force.
She would work there for three years.
While she was there she had a bomb threat to the school.
There wasn’t much difference in what she saw in the Navy, but the attitudes for the
importance of rank were very different than the Air Force. She could sense a difference,
but can’t really put it into words.
She worked just as an administrator and spent her time writing reports on finances and
the curriculum and keeping the programs up to date.
The relations between the military and civilians were always good, no matter where she
was.
Of the different places that she lived, she really liked Colorado.
After Monterey, she was sent to Sacramento, where she worked at a joint job, working
with the different military branches.
She had to train and keep the software going for the system there. It was not the most
exciting job, but it was an important job. There wasn’t a lot to do, except preparing for
exercises.
After this, she would decide to leave the Air Force. She had her mother living with her
and she decided that it was time to get out, so they moved back to MI.
Post Duty (1:00:15)
Since she left the Air Force, she’s retired with a pension, so she didn’t need a job. So she
volunteers her time for different things.
When people found out she was in the Air Force, people were surprised and she never
had any negative reactions. Most people are interested and excited to learn about it.
She notices a constant recognition and admiration for the military nowadays. They didn’t
have that back then.
She worked with a lot of veterans who worked in wars and it was interesting to see and
hear their reactions to military life.
�
She didn’t have a plan to make it a career, but since she didn’t have to reenlist, so all she
had to do was take the next assignment.
She would not be in the Air Force today, as they do not offer her job anymore. They
contracted it out.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Crumback, Linda (Interview outline and video), 2011
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Crumback, Linda
Description
An account of the resource
Linda Crumback was one of the first women to go through the Air Force ROTC School. She would serve her country for 22 years, initially monitoring missile launches, and later working with computers and computer software. She served on bases in Florida, Colorado, Alaska and California, and worked with officers from other branches, especially while serving as an instructor at the Naval Post Graduate School.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American
United States. Air Force
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-01-11
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
CrumbackL
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3255ae73c042cf43d6c626677e22353f.pdf
6c207a3b2a858194625dcd450c5c65f1
PDF Text
Text
Tuesday, June 4, 1991 •
Hidden children
lreak their silence
They thank those who kept Nazis away
BY DAVID CRUMM
Free Press Religion Writer
When Gisele Feldman pulls out
the photos from World War II, she
no longer is a retired French teacher living safely in Farmington Hills.
Suddenly, she is a scared little
Jewish girl, desperately trying to
hide from the Nazis.
At age 8 in France, Feldman was
separated from her parents and
admitted to a children's clinic by a
~ - ...•-kind-hearted doctor. The doctor
treated her for several years for
· .:. rickets and passed her off to au. thorities as a Catholic.
That was half a century ago, but
as she told the bittersweet story on
Monday in the Southfield offices of
the Anti-Defamation League of
B'nai B'rith (ADL), she broke down
in tears.
"I told myself I would not cry
• about this. I didn't wantto cry," said
Feldman, 60.
Abraham Foxman, who also was
hidden as a child during the war and
now is the ADL's national director,
hugged Feldman as she wept.
Moments later, as Feldman returned to looking at photos of seven
of her relatives who died in the gas
chambers of Auschwitz, the emotion rushed in again.
"It's fine," Foxman murmured,
holding Feldman's hands. "It's all
right."
Foxman understands the intense hold the Holocaust still has on
Jewish children who were hidden
and survived the war. Last week in
New York, Foxman and Feldman
participated in the First International Gathering of Children Hidden
During World War II.
"As hidden children, it took us a
long while to break our silence
about our experiences," Foxman
said.
The famous story of Anne
Frank, who was concealed in an
, attic, may not have been as common
as the Jewish children hidden by
Christian rescuers who adopted
them and changed their identities.
At age 2, Foxman was saved
from the Nazis by a nanny who
baptized him a Catholic and claimed
to be his mother. After the war, his
real parents had to wage a traumatic legal battle to reclaim him.
Many of the Christians who rescued fleeing Jewish families also
have remained silent, largely because they did not consider their
actions heroic.
"You tell these people they're
heroes and they say, 'We're not
heroes; we didn't do anything,' "
Foxman said. "These people are
common folks who didn't debate
whether to help, didn't discuss it,
didn't rationalize it. They saw human beings in need and they risked
their lives to help."
Under Foxman's leadership, the
ADL launched the Jewish Foundation for Christian Rescuers in 1988.
Tonight at the Jewish Community Center in West Bloomfield
Township, Foxman and others will
~lebrate the creation of a Michigan
chapter and honor two Michigan
families of rescuers: the Termaats
and the Chorazyczewskis.
Peter and Adrienna Termaat,
now in their 70s, were a young
couple in the Netherlands with a 13day-old son when Germany invaded
their country. They helped countless Jewish men, women and children escape the Nazis. They now
live in Grand Rapids.
Helen and lgnacy Chorazyczewski concealed a Jewish teenager
in their barn in Poland and also
enlisted their oldest son, Ce1.ary, in
caring for the boy. After nearly 18
months, they helped the boy escape. lgnacy Chorazyczewski has
died, but his wife, who is 85, lives in
Hamtramck.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Termaat, Adriana B. (Schuurman)
Termaat, Peter N.
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains genealogical, personal, and family papers and photographs documenting the lives and interests of Adriana and Peter Termaat. The bulk of the materials are related to family history and genealogical research carried out by the Termaats, including research notes and materials about places in the Netherlands that were significant to the Termaat and Schuurman families, such as the city of Alkmaar.
Other materials in the collection are related to the Termaats' experiences on the eve of and during the Second World War, especially the German occupation of the Netherlands and the Termaats' participation in organized resistance to the Nazis. Also included are materials that document the family's post-war life in the United States, including their public efforts to recognize, commemorate, and honor people and events significant to World War II.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1869 - 2012
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection, RHC-144</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Netherlands
Netherlands--History--German occupation, 1940-1945
World War, 1939-1945
World War, 1939-1945 -- Underground movements -- Netherlands
Dutch
Dutch Americans
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-144
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Text
Image
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
application/pdf
image/jpeg
Language
A language of the resource
eng
nl
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-144_Termaat_NWS_1991-06-04-Hidden-children-break-their-silence
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Crumm, David
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1991-06-04
Title
A name given to the resource
Hidden children break their silence
Description
An account of the resource
Newspaper article about hidden children during World War II, and honoring those who rescued and assisted them.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Dutch Americans
World War, 1939-1945 -- Jews -- Rescue
Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945) -- Europe
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection (RHC-144)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a05b6eddc79ddb4bd5138a5920b49c4b.pdf
2bc0b99b61201a8ac73fd08b4774a6b5
PDF Text
Text
Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: Marie Merrill Ramirez
Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 5/16/2012
Biography and Description
English
Marie Merrill Ramirez was a Young Lord in the 1970s in Milwaukee, Wisconsin where she worked closely
with Chapter leader and Minister of Education, Dr. Luis “Tony” Baez. The Milwaukee Chapter worked
within the university (UM) but primarily focused its organizing efforts in the community around
deplorable housing conditions and discrimination, youth support and development, and bilingual
education. In 1969, she and a group drove from Milwaukee to New York City to attend a major gathering
for Puerto Rican self-determination and connected with other travelers in Chicago’s Lincoln Park
neighborhood, at the Young Lords’ People’s Church headquarters.
Ms. Ramirez is currently living back in Mayaguez, where she is involved with Minh (Movimiento
Independentista Nacional Hostosiano) defending organizing rights of People, especially the workers,
who she feels is the main force capable of making true change. They formed their group May 6, 2004
out of two branches of the P.S.P. ( Puerto Rican Socialist Party). The Hostosianos want to make Puerto
Rico a free sovereign and independent nation. Minh members organize for a better education, health,
culture, jobs and housing. And they work hard to uplift activists’ awareness of the conditions. They
strongly feel that all social forces must unite, if they are to bring about any change.
�Ms. Ramirez and many others participated in the fight to evict the United States Navy from Vieques, in
defense of the environment, in the battle against Superpuerto, against the exploitation of mines in the
mountainous center of the Island, and in the struggle to free the political prisoners. During the Vieques
camp occupations, she wrote in blogs and reported about the U.S. military bombings of the Puerto Rican
Island. Then she wrote about the victory of the campers to force the United States Military to leave
Vieques. She continues to report that the struggle continues to get the U.S. to clean up their lands and
to finance health programs for Puerto Ricans dying of diseases, related to the Navy’s military
contaminations.
Ms. Ramirez helped to organize a Peace March and a 24 hour vigil in front of Filiberto Ojeda’s house at
Hormigueros, Puerto Rico, where the F.B.I. traveled from Atlanta, Georgia and shot and killed the
Freedom Fighter. She has supported the struggle for the release of the political prisoners, including
Oscar López Rivera. In 2010, she joined with sports athletes, artists, lawyers, medics, journalists,
teachers, motivational speakers, and students to welcome and support all athletes (especially the
Cuban) athletes at the Caribbean and Central American Games in Mayagüez. Even more recently, she
hosted La Tertulia, a special event for the Young Lords. It was also organized in her hometown of
Mayagüez, Puerto Rico.
Spanish
Marie Merrill Ramirez a trabajado como activista para la comunidad y la sección de Young Lords en
Milwaukee por mucho tiempo. Ayudo con los problemas de la vecindario en el norte y el sur de la
cuidad, enfocándose en estabilizando educación bilingüe en las escuelas. Ahora vive en Mayagüez,
Puerto Rico donde sigue advocando para la autodeterminación de Puertorriqueños. Durante la huelga
de estudiantes en 2010-2011, que fue la huelga mas larga y grande en la historia de Puerto Rico, Marie
Ramirez tomo parte y trabajo con otros en coaliciones de uniones de trabajo, profesores, estudiantes, y
activistas dentro de Puerto Rico. El gobierno tuvo que dejar la tarifa que iba doblar el costo de atender
la universidad. Pero la victoria más significante fue que le movimiento de estudiantes forzó que el
gobierno se sentara en la mesa de negaciones.
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b9bf367f7f9579c5b5e5430b9ee5e661.mp4
d1b2949fa7ff9c3e0390b52cae696e27
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives.
The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
spa
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-65
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
2012-2017
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Título
Spanish language Title entry
Eldelmira Cruz vídeo entrevista y biografía
Sujetos
Spanish language Subject terms
Young Lords (Organización)
Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos
Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales
Idioma español--Relatos personales
Justicia social
Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago
Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres
Source
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-65_Cruz_Eldermina
Title
A name given to the resource
Eldelmira Cruz video interview and biography
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Cruz, Eldelmira
Description
An account of the resource
Eldelmira Cruz is from San Lorenzo, Puerto Rico. She migrated to the Chicago Lincoln Park neighborhood in 1969 and lived right by the People’s Church. Her memories of her early days in Chicago include the work the Young Lords were doing as they grew into a human rights movement. Ms. Cruz recalls the fight in the courts for the Free Community Day Care Center, the Free Breakfast for Children Program, and the Ramón Emeterio Betances Free Health Care Clinic. She and her children also used these resources. Ms. Cruz describes a culture shock as she says she grew up all her life in the countryside in Puerto Rico. Ms. Cruz participated and volunteered in the Young Lords People’s Church.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives
Spanish language--Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs
Language
A language of the resource
spa
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-06-27
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives