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                    <text>A-Theism?
From the series: Can I Honestly Believe?
Text: Isaiah 43:18-19; Psalm 137:4; Acts 17:28
Richard A. Rhem
Christ Community Church
Spring Lake, Michigan
July 19, 1998
Transcription of the spoken sermon
I continue today the summer series which I inaugurated last week on the overall
theme, "Can I Honestly Believe?,” an attempt to look at the same old questions
and say that which we affirm is also consistent with that which we know in the
exercise of our minds in regard to the whole of reality. Is there a consistency
between the faith structures that we hold and the knowledge that we have of our
world, of our lives? If that isn’t true, there is a cognitive dissonance and then
religion becomes a compartment of our lives. We come into a sanctuary on
Sunday morning, but it isn’t that which illumines our total human experience.
Ideally, it ought to do that. Ideally, our religious faith and devotion ought to be
the expression of the deep wells of our being that is consistent with who we are
and what we know and how we live. So, we are going back to visit some of the old,
fundamental questions once again, and this morning to talk about God under the
subject, "A-Theism?"
The most important matter for you to understand as we begin is that A-Theism is
not atheism. Atheism is a belief that there is no God. "A-Theism?" raises a
question about that conception of God known as Theism, or a theistic conception
of God. Now, what is that? Well, it’s everything you’ve ever known, everything
you’ve ever been taught, everything you’ve taught. It is a conception that informs
you when you pray, when you sing hymns, when you do liturgy, because Theism
is the most common conception of God in the whole western culture, including
Judaism and Christianity and Islam. Theism as a conception of God is so
common that we speak of Theism as identical with faith in a God. That’s not true.
And that’s what I want to say this morning, and, if I can get that through to you
this morning, we will have accomplished something.
Last week I asked you, "Do I Need Religion?" and I said, no, I’m not going to
claim that. But, I do claim that there is a fuller, richer experience of being human
if it includes God, worship, devotion, and so on. This morning I want to go on
with what I was trying to say last week when I said that religion is a human,
creative, imaginative construct. Religion is a human, imaginative, creative
construct. You will not hear that from many pulpits, and understandably so. If
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Richard A. Rhem

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too many people get too loose with this whole matter of religion there won’t be
enough jobs to go around and it’s detrimental to my profession. But, since I’m
almost old enough to retire, I can be honest and I can tell you that religion didn’t
fall out of heaven, our human religions are not the product of revelation from
heaven, they are human, creative, imaginative responses to the in-breaking of
that Ultimate Mystery that we speak of as God. Now, when we took a vote at the
end of last Sunday, you did agree that I was right on that. (You did vote, didn’t
you?) You have to be careful, because if you grant me some of these things, before
you know it, I’ll have you, you see. I’m setting you up.
Religion, that is, institutional religion, any kind of religion that involves doctrinal
beliefs, cultic forms of worship, ethical modes of human living - any kind of
religion is a human response to the in-breaking from beyond of the Mystery.
That’s a wonderfully liberating idea, because then I can acknowledge from the
beginning that my human religion with its forms of belief, its forms of worship,
its manner of life, will be laced with error, misconceptions here and there, that it
is sometimes fruitful and profitable and sometimes less than that. I don’t have to
defend my religion. The world is full of religion being defended because the claim
is that the religion fell out of heaven and therefore, if there is something wrong
with the religion, there’s something wrong with heaven, there’s something wrong
with God. Not so. God can’t help the kinds of religions we create. God is not into
religion. God is into breaking through to us, to say, "Be still and know that I am
God." As Isaiah said in passage, "I birthed you, I’ve born you, and to your last
days I’ll carry you." All of it symbolic language that points to that kind of security
that is craved by the human heart. But how we construct, how we concoct our
human religions, is not God’s problem, although it can create a real problem for
God sometimes, I think.
Religion as a human, creative, imaginative construct. Now, if that is true, then of
course, right at the core is our conception of God. And what I’m going to claim
this morning is that we have a very imperfect conception of God, necessarily so,
because the Mystery that is God is a mystery that leaves us dumb. I could have
brought you a marvelous quotation from St. Augustine who said, "I used to speak
about you until I experienced you, and then I found to experience you, I was
unable to speak about you." God breaks through or manifests, and we respond.
Moses responds and we get the whole liberation movement of the slaves out of
Egypt, and we get the nation Israel and that founding experience in the Exodus.
Jesus comes along and Jesus, the Jew’s conception of the intimacy of the
relationship with God becomes very threatening, indeed. Paul, the Jew,
experiencing Jesus, having this breakthrough, this manifestation, tries to give
expression to God. On Mars Hill he borrows from the Stoic philosophers of Greek
culture and actually, in a way, a conception of things much closer to a modern
conception than the Theistic conception which basically he did hold - in God we
live and move and have our being, we are God’s offspring. But, the whole human
story is an ongoing attempt to bring some meaning, to bring to expression that
reality that always eludes us. And I say that that’s a liberating idea, because I

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don’t have to defend it. I don’t have to claim that it’s given once for all. And I
don’t have to panic when the major configuration of things begins to move off in
another direction. That’s really what I’m talking about this morning. A-Theism,
signaling that at our time, in our world, with our knowledge of reality and of the
human person and of human society and human developmental history, that the
most classic, bedrock conception of God is challenged and has been simply
written off by many, many, many of our contemporaries. We don’t have any sense
of that, really, in this area, and we live in a nation that is peculiarly religious. We
live in a nation where there are megachurches that are flourishing, but also a
nation in which the mainline church is deeply in trouble, trying to hold on and
survive. But folks like us don’t really have much chance to realize the degree to
which classic, biblical, Christian conceptions are in trouble. I want to say that’s
okay. God will not go down the tubes when the conception of God in theistic
terms is shown to be no longer compelling.
Well, what is that theistic conception of God? Let me read you a couple of
definitions. From the Oxford Dictionary, Theism is a belief in one God as a
Creator and Supreme Ruler of the universe. Isn’t that what you always have
believed? Or, the Encyclopedia Britannica, Theism is the view that all limited or
finite things are dependent in some way on one Supreme or Ultimate Reality
which one may also speak of in personal terms. Or, another - Theism holds that
God is something like a person without a body who is eternal, free, able to do
anything, knows everything, is perfectly good, is the proper object of human
worship and obedience, the creator and sustainer of the universe.
In his book, Why Christianity Must Change or Die, Bishop John Shelby Spong
writes of Theism as a belief in an external, personal, supernatural and potentially
invasive being. Marcus Borg, in his The God We Never Knew, speaks about the
image of God in the Hebrew scriptures as that God enthroned above the heavens,
that God who is ruler, who is sovereign, who is king, and even in the Hebrew
scriptures, Father, but that idea of a supreme being with all of the apparatus of
supernaturalism so that this world and our lives are over against that being. Now
classically, in our theological tradition, we also spoke about that transcendent
being "out there" also touching us "in here," so that God was also immanent. But,
the immanence of God in our traditional classical understanding of things was
never realized very deeply. Rather, God was that figure out there, ruling,
controlling, directing, guiding, bringing everything to its consummation, the
Supreme Being. That, says Spong, has had its day. I want to say to you here, it
hasn’t had its day here, and I want to be very clear that, if it’s working for you,
keep working it. There is no one that needs to move the mental furniture of one’s
religious construct around just because they happen to be in a congregation
whose pastor is a bit strange in probing the outer edges of theological esoterica.
Don’t change anything that works, because religion is that human, imaginative,
creative response to the God beyond our gods, the ultimate Mystery of things,
and that response that is meaningful for you, deepening your humanity and
enriching your life is just fine.

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But Christ Community is a place where we do think around the edges and this
summer I am trying to think as clearly and simply as I can about these ultimate
matters. I’m simply telling you that we are a part of a massive shift in the broader
ranges of western culture, a massive shift in the understanding of God. Many of
our contemporaries have just turned off from God, so they have moved into
atheism. And if you chart the modern period, you would do so from an orthodox
view of God as that Supreme Other up there, potentially invasive, the episodic
God who moves in and out of creation, to Deism in England at the time of our
founding of this nation. Deism was kind of a halfway house, the God who created
it all wound it up like a clock and now is letting it tick off, but doesn’t really have
an intimate relationship. There was the orthodox conception; Deism was a step
removed, and Deism was really a halfway house to atheism, where we didn’t
really even need the hypothesis of a God. I’m trying to say this morning that if we
want to avoid eventually, down the road, we or our children or our children’s
children, that slide into atheism, the denial of God, then it is incumbent upon us
to think and to think hard about the nature of God that we have experienced and
how to bring that to expression.
I don’t know how to do it. Oftentimes, we know when something isn’t working
before we know how to fix it. Karen Armstrong, in her lecture, "The Future of
God," which I heard a year and a half ago, when she was at the Diocese of Bishop
Spong, talked about that cognitive darkness, quoting the poet Keats, waiting for
the poem to write itself, as she said, quoting the poet, the poet doesn’t sit down
and just write the poem. The poet waits in the darkness until the muse speaks,
until the poem writes itself. You don’t call a committee and write a poem. You
don’t call a committee and write a creed. You wait with openness. You wait in
expectation for the idea, for the vision to emerge. And I do believe that that is
where we are, globally speaking, today. The great religions of the world are in
dialogue with one another. The west has become largely secular in its greater
expression, and it is a time of waiting, I think, in the darkness for God to reveal
God’s self.
In Psalm 137, Judah was in exile and their captors said, "Give us a little Jewish
song," to which they replied, "How can we sing the Lord’s song in a foreign land?"
We take the Hebrew scripture seriously, but we ought to recognize that they’re
very, very human. This document is very, very human. If you would go on to read
those verses, beyond those verses that were sung for us, "How can we sing the
Lord’s song in a foreign land," you would come to the last verse where all of the
anger and hostility of the Psalmist is expressed when he prays to God to dash
their little ones against the rock. It gives you goose bumps. It’s chilling. The God
of Israel in that instance was a tribal God. That tribal God couldn’t move into
exile, and so they were godless. And they couldn’t sing their God’s song in that
situation. But, then there arose a prophetic voice that said, "Comfort ye, comfort
ye, my people, says your God. I am the creator God. I created a way through the
sea, the horse and chariot were overcome. Now, don’t look back, for behold I am
doing a new thing."

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Israel, Judah, had to gain a bigger conception of their God, a God who could
accompany them and indeed be with them in exile and still be God to them in
exile, a God who would, ultimately, bring them home.
And Paul - how could he say God in the face of Jesus Christ on Mars Hill in
Athens? That was his problem, his challenge, his struggle. He quotes their poets;
there’s some truth there. Paul is standing in the Acropolis, the center of human
learning, trying to bring expression to that which had encountered him, and that
which had encountered him was the God of Israel as Israel had conceived God,
but, now that God is given a different spin, now seen through the lens of Jesus
Christ. For Paul it was still quite a simple matter. He said God arranged the times
and the boundaries wherein people dwell. Kind of a small project. But, he was
reaching and stretching to bring to expression a bigger view of God and that’s
what we are about, as well.
You say, well, what about the revelation of God? Yes, that’s what I mean when I’m
talking about the breaking in or the manifestation of the mystery. I don’t deny
that God reveals God’s self. But, there’s a problem with revelation. Everyone who
has one thinks it’s the last word. And then they build a structure and absolutize it,
trying to freeze the moment and perpetuate it on forever so that there’s a block to
any further manifestation, any new experience. We can’t afford that anymore.
Our world is exploding. The growth in knowledge and understanding is
exponential. It’s breaking out all over. And the mood of the church in the
mainline, by and large, is to hold on, to survive, to nail down and to re-imagine
yesterday.
I guess the big thing I say to you is wait in the darkness. What works, work. And
where there’s cognitive dissonance, live with it, keep thinking about it, and
eventually the new will emerge, the idea will show itself, and when it shows itself,
you will recognize how weak and paltry is our present institutional Christian
religious form and structure, because when the new emerges, when we learn to
say God in a new way, it will sweep all before it. Someone has said there is no
military might that compares to an idea whose time has come. So, we’re out
testing ideas, confident in the meantime that we can rest in that Ultimate
Mystery, that God beyond our gods.

© Grand Valley State University

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                    <text>Living With PFAS
Interviewee: AJ Birkbeck
Interviewer: Dani DeVasto
Date: May 19, 2021

DD: I’m Dani DeVasto and today, May 19th 2021, I have the pleasure of chatting with AJ
Birkbeck. Thank you so much for being with us today AJ. Can you tell me about where you’re
from and where you currently live?
AJ: Well I grew up in Grand Rapids, Michigan and went to school in Ann Arbor and after that
moved to Chicago where I worked for many years as an environmental attorney.
DD: And are you still based in Chicago right now?
AJ: I do maintain an office in the Chicago-land area, and I’m still licensed in Illinois but I’ve
been focusing pretty much exclusively on Michigan of late, so that’s my focus and especially
when it comes to PFAS.
DD: Alright, can you tell me how long you’ve been here?
AJ: Well, I spent all but 17 years of my life, so over 50 years I’ve been in Michigan.
DD: Okay. So AJ, could you tell me a story about your experience with PFAS or with PFAS in
your community?
AJ: The main story is just unfortunately the lack of information that’s available to everyone. You
know, critically, lawmakers don’t have accurate information, and many times they’re being
informed by the chemical industry exclusively, not necessarily by science. As science is coming
online, not only in Michigan but across the country and around the world, it’s becoming evident
that this problem is a lot bigger than people thought, because these chemicals are everywhere.
So, the story is: how can we get information out to people and how can we inform people of risks
related to PFAS, and that’s what we did when we discovered the wolverine contamination in
Rockford, MI, which is one of the most contaminated locations in the US. Even worldwide,
people have heard of it.
DD: Do you want to say anything more about your efforts to help get out information to people?
Especially kind of surrounding the Wolverine West Michigan area?

�AJ: Right. Well as a group of citizens, to say resources are limited is kind of an understatement.
It’s something that people in the neighborhood do in their spare time and there was a lot of
footwork done, a lot of discovery. It’s when we clearly determined there had been releases of
PFAS in and around Rockford that needed to be addressed. The next big step was informing the
regulatory community because still to this day, these chemicals are not effectively regulated at
the federal level, which is just incredible. But in Michigan, fortunately they moved very quickly
in legal moves with regulation that happened to be exactly timed with pleadings that came down
and legal actions between the state and federal government and wolverine. So it all was a
simultaneous recognition that something needed to be done. The regulations were passed and
wolverine agreed to step up to the plate and really move forward with a lot of what’s been
happening out at that site right now.
DD: Can you tell me a little bit more about your role in this process?
AJ: Well, I’ve spent my entire career out at locations working in communities on large
contaminations. The biggest client for many years was actually an instrumentality of the federal
district court in San Francisco with the Northern district of California. We worked directly for
the court working on cleanups that were driven by community concerns. I had experience in
doing things like that, and I received a call one day from a small community group, that’s the
CCRR, and they needed legal advice as to what they could do with respect to the tannerring. I
heard about some of the things that were going on, and I tried to reach out to city government at
the time, but they really weren’t interested in finding out what was going on, or in any
investigation. For the first time in my life, I met active resistance from a unit of government. I
worked in my day-job for decades with municipal leaders in a very constructive way, and here,
the door was slamming in my face. So I agreed to work with the CCRR in bringing action in
Belmont and Rockford, and that effort so far has resulted in, my guess, and wolverine hasn’t
disclosed any costs, but at least $125,000,000 in response costs. So, it has resulted in what I think
is a significant improvement, not only to the environment, but in human health, which is most
important. It’s unfortunate that the exposures were there as long as they were there, but I think,
you know, as a result of literally, concerned neighbors saying something isn’t right here and
digging deeper, and deeper, and deeper, we have prevented all those folks from Belmont from
drinking what was the most contaminated drinking water I would argue in the nation. I think
there was a couple of commercial wells that were tested at slightly higher levels. But I mean this
is one of the most PFAS impacted sites that there is. The fact that people were sitting there
drinking this water everyday, you can't taste it, smell it, or see it, it was just insidious. The fact
that we cut that off by who knows how many years, 2 years, 5 years, 10 years, any day is too
long to continue drinking what those residents were forced to drink. As we got more and more
into it, I got more and more passionate about communities really needing help. What was going
on in Rockford was the impotence for the founding of the PFAS alliance, which is- the motto is
“From Communities, For Communities”. Taking everything we’ve learned in an area with very

�little guidance as to what you should do as an impacted citizen, if it’s just finding out that you’ve
been drinking PFAS for 25 years, you know, that's a scary prospect. There’s a lot more resources
now than there were, but at the state level they’re really stretched. We need a lot more focused
[?], which means a lot more resources, which means a legislature that’s willing to vote those
resources into place in order to deal with this problem which is just getting bigger. I mean
literally, go online to MPART and every week its 2 or 3 new sites. We had a big jump with, I
think over 50 sites when the regulations finally came in. It’s so many communities being
impacted and each one is related but in a unique way. So, how do you address that? It’s a huge
problem which comes all the way back around to: I see this as a communication issue. A need to
get information to the people who need it most, especially people living in impacted
communities.
DD: Do you want to say anything more about the PFAS alliance and either how that came to be
or any of the work the PFAS alliance is doing right now?
AJ: Some communities like to keep what’s going on behind a wrap, so if there’s a community
that wants to remain confidential, we honor that request. We’ve reached out to a number of
communities. Unfortunately, we are strictly an all-volunteer organization. We’ve received just a
couple of very small grants, and on top of that it’s all volunteer work. So we have a dedicated
group of directors and other folks that are members and work with us to really reach out, indepth, to communities. One of the communities we’ve recently worked with was down by Gerald
Ford International Airport. There were, I believe, 247 households there with impacted wells, and
we are working to ensure that they get hookups to the city of Grand Rapids water, which is very
clean in respect to PFAS. So it’s the kind of thing that, as a community, they can’t do those
things themselves, they don’t have the expertise and scientific help like we’ve gotten from
GVSU with Dr. Richard Redinski, and with my experience with working with environmental
laws with big cleanups in communities. Whenever we see success, like we’ve seen in several of
the communities, it only makes us want to work harder and try to get the word out to more and
more communities. Right now, we are just limited by assets. We do not have, you know, the
grants behind us to really make things work as we’d like to. Because if we could expand and get
out into 10s of communities, instead of just a handful of communities, which is all we can do at
one time now. There’s 160 communities waiting for help across Michigan right now.
DD: Wow. Before, I know you’ve mentioned that you’ve been involved for a long time with
large community cleanups. But before you got involved with this, were you doing work with
PFAS? Or is this a new contaminant that you encountered with CCRR?
AJ: You know, it’s interesting. I used to go every year to these events that were hosted by the
state of Michigan, DEQ at the time. You would sit around the lunch table with people that you
mostly don’t know, and I happened to sit down next to a gentleman named Bob Delaney. Bob

�Delaney is truly the biggest hero we have with the PFAS movement. He identified this stuff at
one of his sites where he was project manager. He was researching into it and the more he found,
the more terrible it became. He tried to elevate that within the state to an issue that should be
addressed immediately. He even came up with a plan on how to address it, and unfortunately, it
was placed in the circular file by those who made decisions, and there was no action taken. It
turns out that literally 10 years later, actually it became more like seven years later, it became the
template of how Michigan has handled this. So, you have a man that seven years beforehand was
screaming, “something needs to be done about this”, I happened to sit next to at lunch. He started
to explain this [?] and asked “have you heard of it?”, and you know, I hadn’t. I stay on top of
these things, but the industry had done a very good job of making this appear to be a miracle
group of chemicals, and it was like this isn't great? Science at work. “Oh so we have some
evidence that it does some really bad things but we’ll just keep that quiet because this is
extremely profitable and we don't really have proof.” That's basically what they ended up
standing behind for nearly 50 years: We don't have proof that it's bad. The fact that there’s so
many of these, 5,00 on a recent international science call. I meet every month with this group of
PFAS scientists from around the world, but there has now been 9,000 categorized of them, and
we know the health effects of approximately 2, maybe 3. The information we have, even there, is
limited. So, this group of chemicals is out there and I think it’s something that ultimately, I
became active in the environmental side of things as a geologist and in the light of when it
happened with the love canal. That opened a lot of people’s eyes and I think when PFAS hits the
mainstream media, there’s going to be a lot of eyes that are opened, as far as, “wow, I had no
idea something this toxic was this close to my life every day”. They’re talking about going into
camping stores where they have rack after rack of waterproof parkas and there could be a serious
inhalation risk associated with that. Who would have had any idea? Dental floss, you know,
wrappers for your burger, it just keeps coming up. The information that’s coming in daily is just
mind boggling, and I actually suggested at a think-tank meeting that we create a worldwide
information repository, scientifically vetted, because a lot of what’s going on right now is
happening in the European Union. They tend to look more at human based health studies. So it
was suggested that we start this, myself and Dr. Rediski are co-chairs on it, 2 and 3. We are
working with China, Australia, the folks in Washington, and the European Union to get as much
relevant health information in front of people in an easy to use interface and try to make that
happen. But again, it’s all volunteer time by 20 people, no funding, no nothing, so it’s very
frustrating unless you're plugged into that whole system of applying for grants and doing all that
kind of stuff. We just have so many communities that need help, that we haven’t done that.
DD: It seems like sometimes the timeline for some of those things like applying for grants and
working through certain processes is not in sync with people’s needs too, adding to the
challenge.

�AJ: Yes, although I will say there’s been a number of groups, I can’t even list all them here, but
one group in particular, Freshwater Future up in the Traverse City area, and they’re international
as well, they’ve helped us with several grants. They’re helping us with our website right now.
They are the group that came up with the $80 alternative to the $300 water testing alternative
offered by the state. $300 is a lot for a lot of people, and the fact there’s an $80 alternative out
there is great. Unfortunately, they had to shut their labs down due to COVID, but I’m trying to
find out when they’re going to be back online. Ultimately, in my opinion, the way to address this
is an initiative that I started with former chair of MPART, Steve Slyburn. We came up with
computer systems to track, using PFAS, everywhere [?], then goes a step further to model
groundwater flow to tell you if it’s moving towards you. So you can go and enter your address
and it would say “you’re a quarter mile away from a landfill, where we know there’s PFAS, but
you don’t have to worry about it because the water is flowing in the other direction.” Or, “you
should be worried about it because it’s coming in your direction.” Those are the people who
can’t know on their own, due to low funds, to test their wells. They could at least spring for the
$70 and say “okay I’ve been drinking poison water, what do I do? Okay I get a filter, now what
do I do?”. The state just doesn’t have the resources to deal with individual hits like that. There’s
going to have to be a structure put into place, but the best hope right now is to come up with a
system that allows any member of the public in Michigan to enter their address and find out if
they’re at more risk or less risk. It can’t be able to say, you are definitely impacted. But I think
people, if given the opportunity to check into risks, often will. We’re hoping that would be the
case with this system.
DD: That sounds like a great idea. I hope it comes to fruition.
AJ: It’s been promised by the state by the first quarter of 2022. We’ve been told that certain
aspects of it, the most difficult is the ground level water modelling as far as direction of
groundwater, nobody’s ever tried that at a statewide basis based on well logs. They have to
verify the data, because often well-logged locations often list the wrong location. That’s the
element that’s taking the longest, but there’s 32 other layers of information, including
manufacturers who utilize PFAS, in most cases in strict accordance with the law and there’s no
spills. But, shouldn’t the person who lives right next door to that plant be able to say, “Okay, I’m
going to spend $70 and test my water, and if it comes up clean then I can say I have a good
corporate neighbor.” If it doesn’t, then we’ve got another site added to the ever growing list with
MPART. Each one is a community with their own stories.
DD: To go back to that original problem, the one where you said, “how do you get information,
especially information about risk out to people?”, this would really help to address that lack.
AJ: Right. Unfortunately, it’s come up against some real roadblocks. With respect to EPA, they
have not really been allowed to look at PFAS until recently. The plan that they came out with in

�the last year of the Trump administration was: “We agree to look at it, we’ll get back to you in a
year.” They’re saying they could be as long as a year away from regulating this at the federal
level. Which, by that time, Michigan’s regulations will be years old. Good for the folks in
Michigan for recognizing how important water is and getting regulations in place to protect
them.
DD: So this kind of leads into my other main question, what concerns do you have about PFAS
contamination moving forward?
AJ: It’s just that- I think unfortunately there’s parallels with what happened with Covid, which is
initially ignoring the potential gravity of the problem. Then when it hits, really going through a
period of denial, “oh it’s not that bad yet.” You know, I found that even immediately in a case in
Rockford, you could go up to almost half of the people you run into, and they won’t even really
know what PFAS is, because Rockford has been on clean water since at least 2000. It’s one of
those problems that unfortunately unless it’s happening to me, it sounds pretty complex. These
5,000 or 9,000 chemicals that the federal government doesn’t even regulate. There’s a very high
degree of apathy, but when people begin to realize they are being exposed, it’s in 99.9% of
people in the world. You have it in your blood right now, I have it in my blood right now. The
question is, how much? The question that very few people have been able to look into is, how
much is too much? What we know about the current PFAS contamination is that they’re really
bad. Instead of being measured in parts per thousand, parts per million, or even parts per billion,
the regulations for PFAS are as low as six parts per trillion. It’s difficult to comprehend how
minute that is. An analogy I’ve heard is: when there’s one drop of water in an Olympic-sized
swimming pool that renders the whole pool undrinkable. That’s some pretty toxic stuff. In the
50s and 60s, people were disposing of it in tanker trucks, thousands of gallons a day. Sometimes
a local dump would take it. [?] turn on the spigot on a truck and just drive along the side of the
road. This stuff can pop up anywhere, and it has been. In surface water, it’s pretty easy to
identify because you have foam, and it’s a different kind of foam. It’s not that brownish-yellow
natural foam, it’s bright white. Frankly, [computer stalls] [inaudible]because they’re PFAS in the
Grand River, it doesn’t take much to generate foam.
DD: So before we wrap up today, is there anything else that you’d like to add that we haven’t
touched on? Or is there anything that you would like to go back to?
AJ: Sorry, my internet is absolutely horrible. I used to have these fancy offices downtown and
now I’m in the middle of the country in a rundown old town and we have to rely on cell towers
that are miles away, [?] the phone companies lobbied….[inaudible].
DD: Uh oh, Aj I think you might have cut out...you’re back!

�AJ: Can you hear me now?
DD: I can.
AJ: [Inaudible]...so now even though these phone lines [?] they won’t connect it. So actually,
100 years ago in 1921 there was better phone service here then there is today.
DD: Wow.
AJ: Anyhow, did I mention the one drop in an olympic sized swimming pool? Because I don’t
remember when the question interjected into my line of thought. So I’m just trying to think
where I left off.
DD: Yes, you did talk about the one drop in the swimming pool. We had been talking about the
concerns you have with PFAS contamination moving forward, and some of that conversation
was helping people understand the magnitude of the problem. I don’t know if that helps jog your
memory at all. Wait, are you still there?
AJ: I mean without hearing what I really said before, I really risk repeating things, and that’s
kind of embarrassing. It’s a result of the medications and everything they have me on right now.
I don’t know if I could just listen to it and then we could ask that third question in a follow up in
a day or two. That way, I could just say, “oh i left out these two or three points” and we could
wrap it up that way. Does that sound like something we could do?
DD: Yeah, absolutely. I can send you the recording.
AJ: Unfortunately, with the recording also I’m usually a little more honest than I should be with
the things that I mentioned to you earlier.

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                    <text>March 12, 1896
Mr. A.S. Clark,
Dear Sir:
I called in &amp; inquired of you, on Monday last, if you remember, for the number of Frank
Leslie’s Illustrated News, next issued after the 16th of April 1865, &amp; Containing the
picture of the deathbed scene of Abraham Lincoln; and you promised, if I mistake not,
that you would send me word as to whether, or not, you could furnish me that number, by
the next (Tuesday) morning.
I have not as [text strikethrough]{yet}heard from you since.
If you have found that number for me, please send me word &amp; I will call in for it,
promptly.
Yours Truly,
Thomas Proctor

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans' History Project
Diane Aamoth
Vietnam War Era
1 hour 18 minutes 47 seconds
(00:00:40) Early Life
-Born on November 13, 1950 at St. Mary's Hospital in Grand Rapids, Michigan
-When she was a year and a half old her family moved to Jenison, Michigan
-Mother worked on an assembly line at a General Motors factory
-Retired from that
-Father worked for the city of Grand Rapids
-Retired from that
-Attended Grandville High School
-Graduated in 1968
(00:01:37) Social Unrest &amp; Vietnam War Pt. 1
-Aware of the Counter-Culture and social turmoil in the 1960s
-Remembers the race riots in Grand Rapids in 1967
-Watched the news and saw businesses in Grand Rapids closed
-Knew about hippies
-Counter-Culture didn't appeal to her
-Knew about the Vietnam War
-Understood that North Vietnam and South Vietnam were fighting
-Understood that South Vietnam didn't want communism
(00:03:04) Enlisting in the Army
-Attended Grand Rapids Junior College (now Community College) fall of 1968
-Took general education classes
-Enjoyed it, but it felt too much like high school
-Decided to join the Army
-Every day on the way to school she passed the Army induction center
-One day the thought just entered her head that she wanted to join the
Army
-Patriotic and felt a need to serve her country
-Liked the idea of having college benefit
-Father had served in the Army during World War Two
-Didn't support the idea of women serving in the Army
-Had an uncle that served in the Marines during World War Two
-Parents were surprised that she wanted to enlist, but supported her
-Urged her to do research before enlisting
-Recruiter was an honest, wise woman
-Happy to talk with Diane's parents about the decision to enlist
-Answered every question they asked to the best of her ability
-In December 1968 she went to Detroit for her Army physical
-Stayed over night at the YWCA
-Intimidating to be on her own

�-Women were separated from the men for the physical
-Remembers taking the oath and realizing that she was now in the Army
-Felt proud, excited, nervous, and scared
(00:09:18) Basic Training
-Following her induction into the Army she boarded a plane for Alabama
-Sent to Fort McClellan, Alabama for basic training
-Close to Birmingham
-In the Women's Army Corps
-Trained separately from the men
-Took a lot of classes on Army regulations, Army history, and Army hierarchy
-Received a lot of physical training every day
-Did drills and went on marches
-Did gas training
-Supposed to do a bivouack, but it was cancelled due to weather
-Disappointed that she missed out on that
-All of the drill instructors were women
-Will never forget the first night at Fort McClellan
-A drill instructor came in and one recruit said "Hello ma'am"
-Should have said "Hello drill instructor"
-Drill instructor screamed at her and the rest of the recruits for the mistake
-Made Diane think about her decision to sign up for three years
-Began to understand why drill instructors yelled at recruits
-Befriended one drill instructor and is still friends as of 2015
-Emphasis on discipline and orderliness
-Learned how to follow orders without question
-Clothes had to be stored in a certain way
-Beds had to be made a specific way
-Shoes had to be polished
-If everything wasn't exactly right you would get a "gig" (demerit)
-Too many gigs meant starting basic training over
-If you made a mistake you had to do push ups
-Remembers failing to have her clothes "pressed off" (smoothed out)
-Had to write "I will be pressed off" 100 times
-Discipline didn't bother her
-Had some downtime during training
-Wrote home at night
-Allowed to go to the PX (Army general store)
-First time going there she was terrified she would fail to salute the right
people
-At the end of eight weeks of training she was relieved she made it and was more
confident
-Kept entirely separate from the male recruits
-For gas training you went into a room and learned how to put on a gas mask properly
-Instructors filled the room with tear gas
-Ordered to remove gas mask and say name, rank, and serial number
-She quickly said all three then got out of the room

�(00:23:44) Advanced Individual Training (AIT)
-For her AIT she was assigned to Clerk Typist School
-Specifically requested that because she didn't want to be a nurse
-Her AIT was at Fort McClellan
-During Clerk Typist School she was selected for LOG X at Fort Lee, Virginia
-Worked with officers who were learning how to operate during a war
-Sent to Fort Lee in the middle of the night
-Didn't know where she was going
-Thought she was being sent to Vietnam
-Exciting to do paperwork for high ranking officers
-Trained with women at Fort Lee
(00:26:35) Assignment to the Pentagon
-At the end of AIT she was allowed to pick three different assignment locations
-One of her friends suggested they both pick the Pentagon on a whim
-They were both assigned to Fort Myer, Virginia to work in the Pentagon
-Excited to work in the Pentagon
(00:27:28) Working at the Pentagon Pt. 1
-After completing AIT she was given a leave home to Michigan
-Flew from Michigan to Washington D.C.
-Met up with her friend the night before they had to report for duty
-Met at Washington National Airport
-Got a room at the Harrington Hotel
-Excited to be in the capitol
-Walked up Pennsylvania Avenue in uniform
-In retrospect realizes she could have been harassed or
attacked
-Told to expect harassment from protestors
-Checked in at Fort Myer the next day
-Nervous about doing clerical work for a major in the Pentagon
-Assigned to be a keypunch operator
-Took three weeks of Keypunch School
-Keypunch: machines that used punch cards to organize information (primitive
computer)
-Able to reduce the error rate in the Keypunch Office she was assigned to with her friend
-Verified the cards properly
-Former clerks didn't do their job properly
-Became a Data Analyst Specialist instead of a Keypunch Operator
-Able to understand the information on the punch cards and cross reference it
-Knew if someone was dead, being transferred, or getting reassigned
-Worked with information coming in from all over the country and the world
(00:35:55) Deployment to Vietnam
-Enthusiastic about wanting to help the war effort
-Wanted to be deployed to Vietnam
-Knew she couldn't fight, but could at least be in the country
-Requested a transfer to Vietnam, but got denied
-Tried to process her own transfer orders and got caught

�-Not punished though
-Explained that she was needed in the Pentagon
-After seeing combat veterans come back from Vietnam she is glad she didn't go
-Saw some Vietnam veterans that dropped to the ground at the sound of
explosions
-There was a cannon they fired at Fort Myer and the veterans didn't react
well to it
(00:38:50) Promotions
-Started off at the Pentagon as a private
-Made Specialist 5th Grade in only 15 months
-Attributes that to duty station, work ethic, and having good superiors
-Promotions were easy until she was up for promotion to Specialist 5th Grade
-Had to go before a board for evaluation
-Nervous about the evaluation, but prepared herself for it
-Afterwards she realized her face, arms, and neck were red from
anxiety
-Successfully passed the evaluation and was promoted to Specialist 5th
Grade
(00:41:52) Relationship with Fellow Soldiers Pt. 1
-Had one female, civilian worker and one other female soldier in the office
-Rest of the workers were male soldiers
-Male soldiers were uncomfortable with female soldiers at first, but adjusted to it
-Never had to deal with inappropriate remarks from the male soldiers
-Able to take free trips out of Andrews Air Force Base
-Some men said she got the trips for free just because she was a woman
-Free trips were offered equally, all you had to do was put forth the effort
-Some men made outrageous claims with no backing
-For example: Diane and her friend didn't do things like other female soldiers
-Only female soldiers they knew were Diane and her friend
-Men were respectful and, for the most part, treated her as an equal
(00:46:44) Working at the Pentagon Pt. 2
-Worked at the Pentagon for a year
-Transferred to the Commonwealth Building in Rosslyn, Virginia
-Across from the Potomac River
(00:47:04) Relationship with Fellow Soldiers Pt. 2
-Got irritated with some of the other female soldiers at Fort Myer for being too relaxed
-It reflected poorly on the other female soldiers
-Had contact with soldiers from the other branches of the military without any problems
-Got along well with male soldiers because she grew up with sports and male cousins
-When she went on dates she judged the men based on how they reacted to her being a
soldier
-Noticed a negative change in some men when they found out
-Not supposed to fraternize with officers
-Everyone respected the rule
-Disappointing to meet someone only to learn they were an officer
(00:50:55) Social Unrest &amp; Vietnam War Pt. 2

�-Remembers being cautioned about avoiding protests in Washington D.C.
-She was in D.C. for a concert at the Washington Memorial
-Saw a car drive into the Reflecting Pool and people swarm the car
-Older friend said they needed to leave
-Got to the edge of the crowd and ran into tear gas
-Older friend helped her out of the situation
-Drove up to the White House on another occasion
-Saw a line of police surrounding the White House
-Noticed a gradual change in the Pentagon when it came to the Vietnam War
-People started to talk about the war more
-Asking how long it would take to end and what the purpose in Vietnam
was
-Arguments about being pro-war and anti-war
-Arguments in favor of draft evasion and against it
-Knew of Black Panther demonstrations in Washington D.C.
(00:57:37) Race Relations
-Worked with black soldiers and white soldiers
-Befriended a black soldier while working at the Commonwealth Building
-Offered her a ride on his motorcycle and she took the offer
-Went on a ride together in the city and people stared at them
-Knew that people had disdain for interracial relations
-Didn't think anything of riding with a black man
-Parents weren't racist and she didn't grow up in a racist
area
-Heard stories about racism during basic training
(01:00:44) Downtime
-Went to concerts in Washington D.C. with friends
-Saw Diana Ross, Dionne Warwick, and Jesus Christ Superstar
-Hated that people complained about having nothing to do in Washington D.C.
-Felt that there was plenty to do in the capitol
(01:02:00) End of Service &amp; Life after the War Pt. 1
-Considered reenlisting because she enjoyed the Army
-Discipline and authority wasn't foreign to her
-Met a fellow soldier in her office
-Started dating and decided to get married after getting discharged
-Influenced her decision not to reenlist
-Got out in April 1972 and got married in September 1972
-Married for four years and got divorced
-Had no children in that marriage
-Army encouraged her to reenlist
-Immediate promotion to the rank of Staff Sergeant (E-6)
-Allowed to choose where she would be assigned
-Would have picked Germany
-Offered a bonus
-Asked for a three month extension and got it
-Offered a reenlistment despite the war ending

�-Feels that the office wanted to keep her until they found a replacement for her
-When they found her replacement she was able to train them
(01:05:35) Women's Rights Movement
-Noticed the Women's Rights Movement as early as high school
-Agreed with some of what they wanted, but not the extremists
-Felt that extremism would be too antagonistic
-Wanted women to focus on major issues like employment equality, not minor issues
-Never had problems with men in the Army, so she wasn't compelled to protest
-Noticed more opportunities open up for women in the Army
-Shortly after she was discharged the Women's Army Corps was disbanded
-Note: 1978
-Female units were integrated with male units
(01:07:40) Life after the War Pt. 2
-Finished her Associate's Degree as a legal secretary through Davenport College
-Worked for a couple of the bigger legal firms in Grand Rapids
-Lived in Nashville, Tennessee when she was married to her first husband
-Worked as a legal secretary in Tennessee
-Worked for an insurance company
-Did some travelling after getting divorced
-Lived with an aunt and uncle in Oregon for a year and a half
-Helped build a road in Oregon and enjoyed that
-Always wanted to live in Alaska and in 1980 got to move there
-Got to move up there with her uncle (the Marine veteran)
-Lived there for two years
-Met her current husband in Alaska
-Has three sons and is still married
-Worked for Herman Miller Furniture for 15 years
-Worked in their competitive intelligence department
-Is a member of American Legion Post 535 in Lansing, Michigan
-Had been part of the Grandville post
-Left it because of the sexism
-Joined the all-female American Legion Post in Lansing
-Had been established for Women's Army Corps veterans from World
War Two
-Place to talk about harassment they experienced during the war
-Small post with 25 members
-Majority are World War Two veterans
-She is the commander of that post
-Would like to go on an Honor Flight in the future
(01:15:11) Reflections on Service
-Doesn't feel that the Army changed her, it just made her grow up
-More aware of issues with the country
-Learned to never make generalizations
-Grew up a lot in the first week of basic training
-Heard about people's lives and some of the troubles they experienced
-Learned a lot in the Army, and grew up a lot, but it didn't change her as a person

�-Army was a great experience for her, but doesn't believe that it is for everyone
-Feels that the Army is what you make of it

�</text>
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                <text>Diane Aamoth was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on November 13, 1950. In late fall 1968 she enlisted in the Army and in December 1968 she reported for duty. She was part of the Women's Army Corps and received basic training at Fort McClellan, Alabama. She received clerk typist training at Fort McClellan and at Fort Lee, Virginia and wound up being assigned to Fort Myer, Virginia and working at the Pentagon. She became a keypunch operator in the Pentagon working for a major, and during her time in the Army worked up to the rank of Specialist 5th Grade (equivalent to the rank of sergeant). During her time in Washington D.C. she saw the social unrest and racism that still plagued the nation in the late 1960s and early 1970s. She worked at the Pentagon for a year and completed her service at the Commonwealth Building in Rosslyn, Virginia. She was discharged in April 1972.</text>
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                    <text>Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: Aaron Dixon
Interviewer: Jose Jimenez
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 3/14/2013
Runtime: 01:17:46

Biography and Description
Oral history of Aaron Dixon, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on March 14, 2013 about the Young
Lords in Lincoln Park.
"The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the
history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later,
the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the
premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and
political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban
renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos,

�working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same
families and activists also risk losing their history.

�Transcript
AARON DIXON:

Aaron Dixon. I was born January 2nd, 1949, Chicago, Illinois.

JOSE JIMENEZ:

Okay.

(break in recording)
JJ:

Okay, could you give me your name, your date of birth and where you were born,
Aaron?

AD:

Okay. All right. Give it to you again?

JJ:

Yeah, give it to me again.

AD:

Aaron Dixon. I was born January 2nd, 1949, in Chicago, Illinois.

JJ:

Okay. Where in Chicago, what part?

AD:

Oh, god, I used to know the hospital and -- damn, shit.

JJ:

Wait, was it North Side, South Side?

AD:

South Side.

JJ:

South Side, okay.

AD:

Mm-hmm.

JJ:

Okay. Do how do you know about the Young Lords?

AD:

I know about the Young Lords from being in the Black Panther Party when the
Black Panther Party [00:01:00] began to -- in Chicago particularly, they started
the coalition with the Young Lords and the White community, which became the
first Rainbow Coalition. But that was my first time that I heard about the Young
Lords was during that time period in 1968.

JJ:

In ’68?

AD:

Yes.
1

�JJ:

Okay. And so, was your family from Chicago?

AD:

Yeah, yeah, both my parents were from Chicago, and they grew up in Chicago
and all my relatives were in Chicago. And when we left Chicago when I was
about eight years old, I was mad at my parents for about five years because
that’s where all my grandparents were, that’s where my cousins were, that’s
where all my family was and I [00:02:00] really didn’t want to be taken away from
them. But we, our family came back every year, every summer, just about every
summer we came back to Chicago.

JJ:

And your family stayed when you moved? Did you move to Oakland, is that
where you moved?

AD:

No, we moved to Seattle, Washington.

JJ:

Oh, Seattle (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

AD:

And my father got a job offer from Boeing because he worked at Chanute Air
Force Base in Champaign and actually we lived in Champaign for the first, you
know, seven years of my life, we lived in Champaign.

JJ:

Illinois?

AD:

Champaign, Illinois, yes. And so, he got that job offer and then in 1958 -- and
that’s when we moved to Seattle, Washington.

JJ:

What was the reasoning for that?

AD:

Well because my father got a job offer and, you know, he went to the -- he
graduated from Chicago Art Institute, he was a artist. [00:03:00] But he had four
kids and he couldn’t raise four kids being a artist, so he became a technical
illustrator at Chanute and then he got this job offer in Seattle, and so he moved

2

�his family there. And also, I think a lot of the reason is because, you know, the
gangs were pretty heavy even then, you know, the Blackstone Rangers, I
remember when we -- driving through Chicago and seeing Blackstones
everywhere, Blackstone Rangers and the Rangerettes. And both my cousins
eventually joined the Blackstone Rangers. So, I think my father, you know,
wanted a different type of life for us. He had three sons and a daughter, and I
think he wanted to get us outta Chicago, so we wouldn’t be tempted by
[00:04:00] joining the gangs.
JJ:

Yeah, how many brothers and sisters at -- whatever you wanna --

AD:

Okay, yeah.

JJ:

And I don’t know if you wanna give some names or anything. It’s up to you
whether...

AD:

Okay. Yeah, I had two brothers and one sister. I had a brother that was a year
younger than me, Elmer, and then I had another brother named Michael was
three years younger than I was. My sister, Joanne, was two years older than I
was, she was the oldest of the kids.

JJ:

Okay. And so, you went -- about how old were you?

AD:

I was about eight years old --

JJ:

About eight years old.

AD:

-- when we hit Seattle.

JJ:

Okay, and then you went to Seattle. How was that, how was life growing up
there?

3

�AD:

You know, it was different, it was different compared to Chicago and especially
the topography, you know, they had mountains and lakes, and it was a really
beautiful topography [00:05:00] area compared to flat Chicago. And we moved
about three or four times before we finally got settled in, my parents were able to
buy a house in Madrona, which was a Black neighborhood. In Seattle, all the
minorities, the Chinese, Filipino, and Japanese, and the Blacks were all confined
to one area, that was the Central area. So, we grew up -- I grew up with a lot of
Chinese, a lot of Japanese, Filipinos, we all went to school together and that was
really nice.

JJ:

So, what kinda memories have you got of the school? [00:06:00] You were in a
diverse area or whatever.

AD:

Yeah. Well, I know when I first got there, when I was in the fourth grade -- third
grade then the fourth grade and fifth grade, I just remember fighting a lot, I just
remember there was always fights, you know, and after school, there was always
a fight. And I remember, you know, getting in my share of fights and all the way
up into junior high school. And there was a neighborhood gang and I was part of
that neighborhood gang and, you know...

JJ:

What was the name of the gang?

AD:

It was called The [Inkwells?].

JJ:

Inkwells, (inaudible).

AD:

Yeah. And everybody had a knife, everybody had switchblades and push-button
knives. I had about three knives. And then --

JJ:

They were not a drug gang or (inaudible)?

4

�AD:

No, it wasn’t a drug gang, it was just a bunch of young people.

JJ:

Just a neighborhood, neighborhood...

AD:

Just a neighborhood gang, yeah.

JJ:

And so, who did you fight? [00:07:00]

AD:

Everybody (laughs) (coughs) (inaudible) everybody. There was always a fight.
We lived across the street from a park, and so at the park, that’s where
everybody gathered and hung out, we played football, basketball, baseball. And
so, you know, I played a lot of baseball, a lot of football and basketball, ping
pong, eventually started playing tennis. And, you know, there was always fights
that were breaking out, you know, that’s just the way it was back then. But it was
always one on one, and it was never -- we all lived in the same neighborhood, so
we weren’t trying to kill each other, we were just letting our anger out, you know,
by fighting. And when I got into the eighth grade, they started a voluntary
bussing program, you know, so an integration program and -- so this was a
[00:08:00] chance for me, I decided to volunteer. ’Cause actually I got tired of
fighting, I got tired of fighting, so I volunteered to go to school to an all-White
neighborhood. And there was only one other Black student there. And I played
on the football team. Then the following year, I went to a all-White high school,
and that’s when I first really ran into racism, you know? The teachers gave me
bad grades not because I didn’t do the work, because they just felt that that’s
what I deserved. And there was a game --

JJ:

So, the teachers were racist.

AD:

Yeah, the teachers were racist.

5

�JJ:

Were being racist.

AD:

Teachers were racist, most of the students were racists. And I was on the
football team and --

JJ:

Okay, they gave you bad grades, what else [00:09:00] did you see, the racism,
what kind of racism?

AD:

I broke my wrist playing football, I sprung it, I sprung it real bad and I was in a
typing class and I couldn’t type because my wrist was damaged. But the teacher
gave me a failing grade anyway. But the incident that really kind of decided that I
needed to get back to the community, there was a basketball game between the
main Black high school, Garfield High School and the Queen Anne School that I
was going to, which was all White and there was this rivalry. And this is
something that happened a lot back then was whenever there were sports
events, Black athletes were always cheated in some way or another. And this
was something we saw over and over and over again. But this particular game,
they were playing for the championship. Garfield High School was a Black
school was ahead by three points and then there was this mystery foul that
[00:10:00] occurred, and the ball went to the White team, and they scored four
points and they won the game by one point. It was obvious to everybody that it
was -- you know, they had cheated, they had stolen the game. And so, the Black
kids after the game, for the first time, they just erupted and they just went after
the White kids and just, you know, a lot of White kids got beat up, some were
chasing to other people’s houses. So, when I went to school the next day, the
White kids looked at me like I had shit on my back, and they wouldn’t talk to me,

6

�they were calling me niggers and it was bad. And so that’s when I decided that
that was my last year at the school, and then I went back to Garfield High School
when I was a junior. And Garfield High School was -- so, that’s where Qunicy
Jones went to [00:11:00] school, that’s where Jimi Hendrix went to school, Bruce
Lee was always up there a lot ’cause there’s a lot of Asian kids up there. And it
was really a -- it was a great place to be because if they -JJ:

(overlapping dialogue, inaudible) was the real Bruce Lee then, that’s (overlapping
dialogue, inaudible).

AD:

Oh, there was a Bruce Lee, yeah, there was a real Bruce Lee. But it was a great
place because there was Chinese students, there was Black students, Filipinos,
there were Blacks and there were White students and we all got along, you
know, and it was just, it was a great place to be, it was a great school, and I had
a great experience. When I was a senior, the counselor called me in, this Black
woman and told me that I wasn’t gonna graduate ’cause I was skipping school a
lot and doing a lot of different things. So, she told me I wasn’t college material
and when she [00:12:00] told me that, it made me real mad, because my parents
were always telling us that we’re gonna go to college. So, I decided to buckle
down and I graduated barely, you know with two-point grade average with all the
credits I needed. I continued to play sports. And then when I graduated, I
actually started doing some acting, I got into some drama. There was this
nonprofit that was doing skits about stereotypes, about racial stereotypes and I
really got into it. And after we finished with that, I started getting into some other
-- doing other theater work and also started writing a lot of poetry. And the Urban

7

�League started a program to help Black students get into the University of
Washington. So, I got in that program and I found myself at the University
[00:13:00] of Washington. There was only 30 Black students out there at the
time.
JJ:

And Seattle has a large Black population (inaudible)?

AD:

Not a large one, but in 1968, Seattle had the largest Black home ownership per
capita in the country. And so, you know, we all lived in the same neighborhood,
but the neighborhood we lived in was in prime property, you know, on hills
overlooking the lakes. But, you know, there was always racial things that were
going on like Eddie Lincoln who got shot by an off-duty policeman and the police
got off. And the Black woman who got raped by police officers and it was never
anything done about it. And, you know, my father coming home from work, and
the first [00:14:00] thing he would do is he’d have to have a drink because he
was dealing with so much racism on his job out at Boeing. And my father was -he was the type of person that he didn’t take no shit from people, you know?
And so, I remember when I was 13 years old saying that I wanted to join the
police department, I was gonna be a policeman. My father, both my parents got
very angry and said I wasn’t gonna join the police department. And I remember
being 16 saying I was going to join the Marines and go to Vietnam. My father
said, “No, ain’t no son of mine going to Vietnam, ’cause those people will call you
a nigger.” So, my parents are very political. My father had joined the Communist
Party when he came back from World War II ’cause he saw a lot of atrocities and
he did a lot of stuff with Paul Robeson. And so, we were raised [00:15:00] pretty

8

�much in a very political environment. And when I was 13, I found myself
marching with Martin Luther King and then I started getting involved in civil rights
demonstrations in Seattle at a very young age. That’s one of the reasons why I
kinda volunteered for the volunteer bussing program ’cause I felt like, “Okay,
maybe this is what we should be doing, integrating.” And so, I got into the
University of Washington, I started...
JJ:

The integrating came from the civil rights (overlapping dialogue, inaudible)?

AD:

Yeah, yeah. So, by that time I was doing a lot of writing, writing a lot of poetry
and doing a lot of poetry readings in the Watts Writers Workshop which was a
group of famous Black poets and out of LA. They used [00:16:00] to come to
Seattle all the time, University of Washington. I was the only local poet that they
asked to read with them. And I had also -- I had gotten a creative writing
scholarship too from the Links Foundation. So, I started toying with the idea that
I was going to be a playwright, I was gonna go to New York and become a
famous playwright. I went to LaLa Leroy Jones’ place and that’s what I kinda had
my mind set on at the time. But anyway, the BSU started doing a lot of work in
the community and a lot of stuff on campus. And I remember when I was 17, 16
maybe, I had been out playing tennis ’cause I was -- we played a lot of tennis
’cause they had a tennis court. I was training myself to be the next Arthur Ashe I
thought. And I came in the [00:17:00] house to eat dinner and I walked by the TV
and I saw these Black men with guns demonstrating, protesting some gun laws
in California, and they were the Black Panthers. I just remember thinking, “Wow,
you know, wow, look at the -- never saw a Black man carrying a gun before on

9

�TV,” had these uniforms on. So, you know, I didn’t think much of it at that time,
but we had -- the BSU decided to close down this high school, and we closed the
high school down, we took the building over and then a week later we were -- I
was arrested along with a couple of other people and charged with unlawful
assembly. And while we were in jail, Martin Luther King was assassinated. And
[00:18:00] so, it was very frustrating to not be out on the streets when that
happened because all across the country, riots were breaking out all over
America and we wanted to be out there too. So, when we finally got out of jail a
couple of days later, there was a Black student union conference in San
Francisco. So, we all got -- we got a bunch of cars and we, about 20 of us drove
down there. And while we were down there, we heard that there was a funeral
for this Panther named Little Bobby Hutton, that he had gotten killed in the
shootout on the same day that Martin Luther King had got killed. And so, we
decided to go over to the funeral. We went and bought some berets, so we’d fit
in. And we drove on over there and went into this funeral and it was a very
emotional and Little Bobby Hutton’s mother wailing and [00:19:00], the aunts
were wailing, and we saw these Panthers standing on both sides of the walls
looking really serious. And we walked the procession and looked at Little Bobby
Hutton in the casket and we went back to San Franciso State.
JJ:

So, there were Panthers and then there was also his family was there?

AD:

Yeah, his family was there. Marlon Brando was there as well.

JJ:

Walking?

AD:

He was standing in front --

10

�JJ:

In front of (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?

AD:

-- of the building with Bobby Seale with his black leather jacket on and black
beret. And so, Bobby Seale was gonna be giving the keynote address at this
conference. So, we went back to wait for him and we waited, we waited for like a
hour and hours. And finally, the doors flew open and here comes Bobby Seale
along with Kathleen Cleaver and along with about four or five other Panthers,
Warren Wells who had been wounded in the shootout. So, Bobby Seale gave
the [00:20:00] address, the keynote address and he was very emotional because
Litle Bobby Hutton was the first Panther to join, he was a good friend of Bobby’s.
Not only was Little Bobby Hutton killed, but also Eldrige Cleaver had been
wounded and was in jail. Eighteen other Panthers were also arrested including
David Hilliard. So, a large chunk of the membership of the Black Panther Party
at that time was now in jail. So, Bobby Seale gave one of the most powerfully
emotional speeches that I had ever heard. And during the speech, he stopped
and said, “We’re gonna stay here all night. Anybody got anything to drink?” And
I had bought my parents a big bottle of vodka ’cause it was cheaper in the Bay
Area, and you could buy it at the store. In Seattle, you had to buy it at the liquor
store. So, I bought this for my parents and I said, “Yeah, I got some.” And I ran
and [00:21:00] got it and gave it Bobby and he took a swig, and he passed it
around and some of the comrades took a swig and he really got animated then,
he really got animated and he just -- he was just really portraying a lot of different
things. It was really -- I wish that had have been taped ’cause it was very
powerful. But when he finished, I made a beeline to where he was, my brother

11

�and Anthony Ware another brother we worked with, we all three of us converged
on Bobby Seale and told him we wanted a chapter of the Black Panther Party in
Seattle. So a week later, he came to Seattle along with George Murray, the
Minister of Education and another Panther, Bill Jennings from San Diego. He
stayed at my parents’ house for three days and there were about 20 other people
from [00:22:00] the community that we had been working with and organizing
with, students and non-students and we met with Bobby Seale and George
Murray for over a three-day period and he told us what we needed to do to be
members of the Black Panther Party. And then he asked me, he said he was
going back east to open up more chapters and he asked me to go with him. But
first of all, towards the end of the meeting, he said, “Who’s gonna be the
captain?” And for some reason everybody pointed to me, everybody -- and I said
this in the book, but I felt like I had been tricked into becoming the captain
because I didn’t really raise my hand and say I wanted to be the captain. I was
only 19 years old, there was plenty of guys there who were older than me. But
anyway, I was named as the captain and Bobby asked me to go back to New
York with him [00:23:00] and I told him that I wasn’t ready to go and I always kind
of regretted that, but I didn’t feel like I was really ready to go ’cause it was
changing, it was happening so fast, I wasn’t really ready to make that change.
So, a week later, I got called and told to come to Oakland and I went down to
Oakland, my first time ever flying. And when I got there, I was met at the airport
by Robert Bay and Tommy Jones, they took me to the office on Grove Street and
they took me around the corner where Robert Bay lived, they introduced me to

12

�Landon and Randy Williams. And there was a lot of things that transpired on that
trip, I don’t know if you want me to go into all that.
JJ:

No, no, that’s fine, as long as (inaudible).

AD:

Okay. So, I remember the first thing I had to do was go see Huey in Alameda
County Jail, that’s [00:24:00] one of the first things I had to do, I had to go out in
the field and sell papers to some of the comrades. But when I went to Landon
and Randy Williams’ house and Robert Bay’s house, the first thing they did was
show me their armament, each one had their own stock of weapons, and they
started showing me all their weapons and everything and they’re reloading
equipment. So, a couple of days later, they introduced me to the Panther Drink,
which in the street was called Bitter Dog, in the party was called Panther Piss,
dark port wine and lemon juice, and they turned me onto some Brother Roogie,
which is marijuana. And I remember, we were in the kitchen talking and Landon
Williams was in the front room ’cause he didn’t smoke or drink. And we heard a
large bang, a loud bam, we ran in there and Landon was sitting there with a .44
Magnum in his hand, he had [00:25:00] shot his TV out. He shot it out because
he said, “Man, I got tired of watching the cowboys kill the Indians.”

JJ:

No.

AD:

So, he just shot his TV out. So later on that day, we...

JJ:

Did it have something to do with the wine or no?

AD:

No, ’cause he didn’t drink, he didn’t drink or smoke, you know, he didn’t get high,
Landon did not get high. So, later on that night -- well, earlier in the day, Tommy
Jones had asked me if I had a piece. I said, “Yeah, I gotta carbine.” He said,

13

�“No, I mean a handgun.” I said, “No.” So, he went out and got me a ninemillimeter llama with a holster on it and he gave it to me. So, I had put it on. And
so, we decided to go down to West Oakland to get something to eat down on
Seventh Street and there was another brother that was with us, Oleander
Harrison, he had joined the party when he was 15 and 16 and he went to
Sacramento [00:26:00], he’s in those films [of them being?], and so he’s got a
cigar, a little stubby cigar in his mouth and a shotgun in his hand.
JJ:

So, what year was this (overlapping conversation; inaudible)?

AD:

This was ’68.

JJ:

So, ’68 --

AD:

April of ’68.

JJ:

-- was up here when the Panthers were talking about weapons and that
(inaudible).

AD:

Yeah, this is April, ’68.

JJ:

And where everybody was.

AD:

So, we went and got something to eat and me and Oleander went outside and
we started smoking a cigarette and this was maybe two weeks after Little Bobby
Hutton had been killed, so there was a lot of tension --

JJ:

(overlapping conversation; inaudible)

AD:

-- between the party and the police. And so a police car drove up, Oleander
being young, he started yelling, “Pig, you motherfuckin’ pig, you better stop at
that stop sign.” So, I joined in, I just started yelling too, we’re yelling all kind of
profanities. Pig goes around, comes around the corner, he calls for backup, and

14

�10, 15 [00:27:00] cars start showing up. And Robert Bay comes out and Landon
and Randy and Tommy come out and all of a sudden, people are running, people
are running home, people are saying, “Oh man, we gotta get outta here, there’s
gonna be a shootout.” Shops are closing, the restaurants is closing. And within
five minutes, the street is empty except for us and the police. The prostitutes
were the only ones there, they said, “We ain’t goin’ nowhere, we’re gonna stay
out here and help our brothers.” And so, then all the police were bunched up
together and Robert Bay says, “Spread out,” he says, “Spread out.” So, we all
spread out. And then there was a lieutenant that was in front of the police
officers and he starts walking towards Landon and Landon -- at first I see this
young brother with the McClymonds’ leather jacket on, he’s gotta bag of
groceries in his hand, you know, and I’m, you I’m just -- all this stuff is happening
so fast, I was just in college, I was just doing my homework, now I’m down
[00:28:00] in West Oakland with a leather jacket on and gun on and getting ready
to get killed. I see this young brother and I say to myself, I’m telling myself, “I
wish this brother would stay and help.” And he looks me in the eyes and he
says, “Man, I would stay and help, but I gotta get home.” And he’s gone. So,
now things are real tense and I’m just feel like, “Okay, this is -- I’m not gonna go
back to Seattle, I’m gonna die right here on this street.” And so, everybody’s got
their hands on their guns, police got their hands on our guns -- on their gun, we
have our hands on our guns. And this police officer, this lieutenant who was
much more harder than the other ones, it appeared to be, he starts walking
towards Landon and he says, “I’m gonna check you.” He’s got his hand on his

15

�gun. And Landon is backing up saying, “No, you’re not gonna check me.” And
he keeps walking towards [00:29:00] Landon, Landon keeps backing up, they
keep saying, “No, you’re not gonna check me.” And Landon slips on this
garbage can top, it bounces right back up, but the garbage can top reverberates
and it breaks the ice because the next thing that happened is the police stopped,
they turned around and they got in their cars and they didn’t say a word and they
drove off. So, that was my baptism into the Black Panther Party. The very next
day, they had the meeting at Saint Augustine’s where Panthers came from all
over the Bay Area to meet, must have been about 125, 130 comrades there from
Palo Alto, San Francisco, Vallejo, Richmond, everywhere. And so, I get
introduced and I’m just treated like a long lost cousin or something, you know?
So anyway, the meeting ends and me, Robert [00:30:00] and Tommy Jones, we
get in the car, we head back to the house. When we get to the house, the phone
rings, Robert Bay grabs the phone and says, “Yeah.” And he slams the phone
down, he runs into his bedroom, he grabs two rifles, and he hands me one of
them and a box of ammo and we jump in the car. He said, “The pigs are
vamping on the comrades at the church.” So, we’re speeding down Grove Street
and he asked me, he said, “Dixon, you know how to load that weapon?” And I’ve
never seen it before, it was a .44 magnum, but I told him, “Yeah,” and I figured
out how to load it. And so, by the time we get down to the church, there’s
nothing, there’s nobody there. And so, of course I’m relieved that nobody was
there. And so those were my -- that was my baptism into the Black Panther
Party. And a couple of days later, I was on my way back to Seattle.

16

�JJ:

So, you go to Seattle and what kind of work were you doing, [00:31:00] what kind
of (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?

AD:

Well, we started looking for a place for the office and we find a place, the man
won’t rent it to us, he’s a realtor, he has real estate offices next door, and he’s
got this other office that’s empty and he won’t rent it to us. So, we said, “Okay.”
So, the next night, his office is firebombed, and so we go back to him and he
rents it to us. So, we opened our office up, get our phones turned on. And at
that time, it was not illegal to carry weapons out in the open in Seattle. So, we’re
carrying our weapons, everybody’s got their rifles and shotguns. So, we get the
phones turned on and we start getting [00:32:00] calls from the community for all
kinds of things, police brutality, rental issues, domestic problems and we start
going out on these calls. And this one woman who had seven kids, the landlord
had taken the door off her house because she didn’t pay the rent. So, we sent
some Panthers to the landlord’s house, they got the door from the landlord, they
carried it down the street and put it back on the hinges. And we got calls from
women saying their boyfriend was beating ’em up, or the husband was beating
’em up. We sent five or six of our Panthers to the house and they straightened
that out. And it was amazing because this was the first time the community had
somebody that they could call, that they knew [00:33:00] was gonna take care of
their business, and they didn’t have to call the police. But they started really
taking advantage of it as they can often do in the community. And I remember, I
was sending weekly reports down to Bobby Seale and talking to him over the
phone and he told me, he said, “Dixon, you guys are going out on too many

17

�community calls, you gotta cut it down,” so we did. About a month later, we get a
call -- maybe three weeks later, we get a call from this woman who said that her
son who was going to an all-White high school got beaten up and that nobody at
the school would do anything about it. So, I told her, you know, “Well, I’m sorry,
we can’t come out there,” because Bobby Seale had mentioned to me that we
need to cut -- stop going on all these calls. But she called back on Tuesday with
the same problem, she called back Wednesday, same problem, called back on
Thursday, same -- I just told her, “No, [00:34:00] I’m sorry, we can’t come.” She
called back on Friday though and she was crying, she said the White kids had
brought chains and bricks to school and they were beating up the Black students,
nobody would do anything about it. And we got a couple of more calls from
some Black mothers who said the same thing. So, it just so happened that there
were about 12 or 13 Panthers in the office with rifles and shotguns and we
decided, “Okay, it’s time to go on out there.” So, we drove out there, when we
got out there, there were about 25 policemen out there, they were on the side of
the building. By this time, you know, we didn’t care who was out there, it coulda
been a army out there, but we were gonna go do what we had to do. And we
crossed the street, there was fat sergeant who met us at the door, he said,
“Dixon, you can’t take those loaded weapons in.” And we knew the gun laws, the
gun law states that if you are carrying a weapon and a bullet is not in the
chamber, then it’s considered unloaded. So, I told him, “It’s unloaded.” So, we
went in [00:35:00] the school. Principal saw us, he took off running, comrades
went and got him, we brought him back down and sat him down, we told him, if

18

�didn’t start protecting these kids that we were gonna protect them. And he
promised us that from now on, he would protect them. So, we walked out of the
school and we backed away across the street because when I went to see Huey,
he said, “Never turn your back to the pigs ’cause they’re nothin’ but a bunch of
back shooters.” So, we backed away across the street, we didn’t turn out backs
to the pigs, we got in our cars, drove back to the Central area. The police
followed us, and they were gonna try to indict us, but they couldn’t because we
didn’t do anything illegal. It wasn’t illegal to carry weapons even into the school.
Of course, eventually they did pass a law to make it illegal. And eventually they
did pass a law to make it illegal for us to carry our guns. But that was the
[00:36:00] defining moment in the Seattle chapter of the BPP.
JJ:

So those were some of the things that -- did you do a breakfast program too or --

AD:

Yeah, then and by 1969, we got orders to start free breakfast programs, and we
opened up our first breakfast program and then we began to open up more. And
there were some people who didn’t see it as revolutionary, and they left the party.
Then I got called down to Oakland in ’69 and while I was down there, I was down
there for about two months, Bobby Seale gets arrested, or not arrested, but he
actually got kidnapped. [00:37:00] And so then I was told to go back to Seattle
to organize and help free the Chairman. So I go back to Seattle, we moved out
of our office, and we opened up the community center because we had orders to
move outta the store fronts and move into houses in the community ’cause the
party was getting raided all across the country.

JJ:

And what year was this?

19

�AD:

This was ’69.

JJ:

Sixty-nine (inaudible)?

AD:

Yeah.

JJ:

So, you opened up a service center, what was the difference between that and
the office?

AD:

The community center was more accessible to people in the community, and we
could do more things, we had more room.

JJ:

(inaudible)

AD:

And we opened up a free medical clinic as well, we opened up a free medical
clinic. This Black guy from the Justice Department called and said he wanted to
meet with my brother and I. [00:38:00] We didn’t wanna meet with him, but he
said it was a matter of life and death. So, we did go finally meet with him, and he
told us that the police were gonna raid our office and kill us. And so, we started
fortifying our office and, you know, we heavily sandbagged our office, steel and
everything. I mean, I could go on all night Cha-Cha. (laughs) I could go on, but
--

JJ:

Okay. Did you wanna (inaudible) now or --

AD:

I mean, if you wanna jump ahead or something?

JJ:

Oh no, I wanted to -- well, I also want to talk more about the organizing, if you
can --

AD:

Okay.

JJ:

I mean, you can go ahead and then come (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

20

�AD:

Yeah, so anyway, we had a free medical clinic, and we opened up a legal aid
program, and through our medical clinic, we did sickle cell anemia testing, we did
mass sickle cell anemia testing and [00:39:00] we started a free legal aid
program, free food program, liberation schools, and that was our main thing that
we did.

(break in audio)
LINDA TURNER:

-- this little suburban Evanston girl.

F1:

There you go.

LT:

Yeah.

JJ:

(inaudible) suburban what?

LT:

No. So, when are you starting? You gotta say, “Go,” or --

JJ:

Okay.

(break in audio)
JJ:

Okay Linda, if you wanna give me your name and maybe age and where you
born and that.

LT:

My name is Linda Turner. I was born in 1941. You do the math. And I became
an activist in 1965. I remember precisely because it turned out to be a very
momentous moment (laughs) for a lot of northern people to get involved in the
Civil Rights Movement that was going on down South. And that weas the first
nationwide showing of the film, Judgment at Nuremberg. And when it ended and
if you know the movie, it’s about the trial of Nazis who were responsible for
exterminating millions of people in Germany, Austria, around, not only Jews, but
gypsies and communists and political enemies and gay people, lots of folks. And

21

�at the end, you’re left with the message that if you care about people, you can’t
just sit back and let it happen, you have to be like the few good Germans and do
something about it. Right after the movie ends, on comes the news, and what’s
on the news but Alabama state troopers clubbing demonstrators on the Pettus
Bridge in, is it Alabama, was it -- now I’ve forgotten. Selma, they were on their
way to Selma, Alabama. And that was my signal, I immediately connected,
[00:41:00] if I feel upset about people sitting by and not doing anything about
injustices to someone, I had to get involved in this. So, next morning I joined
CORE and within a week we were at McCormick Place at the boat show that
they -- the tourism show they held every year. And I think this was the old one
before that one -- I think it’s the one that burned down eventually. And we
chained ourselves in a circle in front of the Alabama booth with the state troopers
standing there. We ran chain link through our coats, so you didn’t see the chain
until we got there and padlocked ourselves. So the front page of The Tribune the
next day was, “Cops carrying out --” ’cause we went limp -- carrying out these
demonstrators, you know, like sacks from McCormick Place and we were jailed,
got out the next day, we went back, did it again. No security there, they let us
back in, we did it again. [00:42:00] And I remember the story because that night
I ate Chinese food and got a fortune in my fortune cookie that said, “You feel
refreshed after a relaxing weekend and ready to tackle the world.” So, my feeling
was, I was active in CORE for a long time, from there it kept growing, the antiwar movement, from the Civil Rights Movement to the anti-war movement just

22

�like Dr. King and start making the connections between them. And I think once
you’re an activist it’s hard to stop being one, you’re always -JJ:

What kind of work did you do in CORE?

LT:

Oh, I did in the ’80s -- oh well, ’70s, I went to Cuba, I’ve been to Cuba five times.
So, when they make a big fuss about Beyoncé and Jay-Z going to Cuba,
anybody can really go to Cuba now, you can say, “I want to investigate the arts
and culture of Cuba,” you can go. But I wish they would stop the blockade
already. I’ve been involved in [00:43:00] various ways of trying to end the
blockade against Cuba for all these years. I was part of the Chicago Cuba
Committee, which did work on that, it was an educational organization. I went on
the second Venceremos Brigade, there were 700 of us. We cut sugar cane and I
still have a picture of Fidel with his machete talking in this big circle of people and
that was the brigade that I was on. We left just after Fred Hampton had been
murdered, December of ’69 and we returned after cutting sugar cane and touring
the island just before May Day of 1970. And when we returned, we were
confronted with the fact of Manuel Ramos’ death. I don’t remember all the
details, he was killed and a gigantic May Day march, somewhere in my files of
memorabilia, I have pictures of it, you know, with banners [00:44:00] and
everything. It was really beautiful and we felt like we were -- that was a
connection between the struggle of the Cuban people, the Puerta Rican people
and all the press people in Chicago, everywhere. It was very moving. I went on
to at that time a storefront community organization called The People’s
Information Center opened and I became a part of that along with several other

23

�friends. And we did programs that other participants in the Rainbow Coalition
did, the Young Lords also, breakfast for children program, worked on a free
people’s health clinic, just all kinds of good things in the community.
JJ:

Where was it located?

LT:

Oh, this was in Lincoln Park, right on Holsted Street. On one side of us we had
the People’s Law Office, which is a whole other story [00:45:00] and a few doors
down, we had the Women’s Liberation’s -- Chicago Women’s Liberation Union
Office. So, it was a very progressive block. And in fact, after urban renewal
cleared the land between I think Dickens and Armitage, there was a People’s
Park built and I remember specifically a 26th of July celebration where we
roasted a pig. I won’t describe how the pig was attired. And it just went on, I
came into an organization of activists that did a lot of work against U.S.
intervention in Nicaragua, El Salvador, Guatemala for many years called the U.S.
Anti-Imperialist -- it was after -- there was initially many years ago an AntiImperialist League and that’s what it was named after. But we did a lot of film
showings and sponsoring speakers, educating people. There were lots of
demonstrations [00:46:00] at consulates, there was always something going on.
I’m trying to follow this chronologically because for -- what else did I do during
those years? I’ll probably remember later. I’m 71 years old, so you gotta cut me
some slack, you know, every detail won’t be there in the right order. But about
12 years ago, I had to move to Las Vegas, actually I live in Henderson because
my mother who at the time was almost 96 could no longer live alone. So, she
moved from Florida and I moved from Chicago leaving my daughter and my little

24

�grandbaby behind and stayed with my mother. And she lived another five years,
’cause she finally had her family around her. My brother lived there already, so
for the first time in many years, my brother and I and my mother were all together
in the same [00:47:00] neighborhood. So, it was a very good five years for her,
she almost made it 101. And now I find so many of my friends are taking care of
their mothers, it’s usually the mothers. So, that’s another link I have with friends
is the experience of the reversal of the mother becomes the daughter and the
daughter becomes the mother. Anyway. And so that’s where I am now, I come
to Chicago every year for a week to see my friends and family. But my skin has
got -- my blood has gotten too thin to live here all year round especially in the
winter, so that’s why I am where I am. And there, I work -- whenever MoveOn
has a demonstration, whether it’s against gun violence or whatever legislation is
coming up, I work on campaigns, work with OFA which has been -- had many
incarnations [00:48:00], Obama for America, Organizing for America, now it’s
Organizing for Action. So, I just keep doing that because I feel that if I stop doing
that, I lose my connection with the world and it’s good exercise. Walking a picket
line never hurt anybody, if you can put one leg in front of the other, so.
JJ:

So, you came from CORE --

LT:

Yeah.

JJ:

-- in ’60 --

LT:

Right, I joined CORE the next morning, it was headed by James Forman at the
time.

JJ:

Was that located in Chicago?

25

�LT:

In Chicago, yes.

JJ:

Okay.

LT:

And for a time, I was secretary of the organization and then there was North Side
CORE, West Side, South Side, they had various branches.

JJ:

But I don’t understand, what was the difference between them and some of the
other Civil Rights groups?

LT:

Well, Congress on Racial Equality, didn’t limit itself to students, it was for all
ages, it was very integrated. [00:49:00] But there came a time, it was after the
Black Power Movement when there was pressure for White people to especially
step down from leadership positions, that it was time for Black people to lead
their struggle and I had no problem with that, so I did. Other people took office,
but it didn’t mean that we weren’t supportive White people who were no longer
officers or whatever in CORE. I liked the organization, and I liked James
Forman, and it was very active at the time.

JJ:

What was he like in --

LT:

Well, I only met James Forman once very briefly. There’s actually a movie -- I
should press my brain and try to remember, that talks about his youth. Denzel
Washington played a union organizer in it, The Young Debaters. If you ever get
a chance to see it, it’s great because there’s a kid there who’s the son of a
minister who grows up to -- who was James Forman. And this kinda shows you
[00:50:00] his introduction to things like the Labor Movement and debating. He
was a very articulate and powerful speaker, and he was part of the Black

26

�Colleges debate team that ended up beating the Ivy League schools and winning
a championship in debating. It’s a very good skill to have.
JJ:

You mentioned Manual Ramos and then you mentioned Fred Hampton. What do
you recall of Fred Hampton?

LT:

Oh, because I knew him, I mean, I think it wasn’t even weeks -- not even a week
before his death that I was the one that took a flyer that we had designed -- there
had been an attack by the Chicago Police on the apartment that -- it wasn’t Fred
Hampton’s apartment, it was an office or something and -- don’t make me [lose
that train of thought?]. [00:51:00] And so there was a big rally planned on behalf
of the people who had been injured and jailed from that raid, not the one that
killed Fred. So, we designed a flyer to be passing out to mobilize people.

JJ:

The information center?

LT:

This is before the internet.

JJ:

The information center?

LT:

Yeah. Well, yes, it was and I took it over to the office on Madison and showed it
to Fred and he’s the one who changed the location. It was gonna be a different
location, I don’t remember which, but it ended up being at the church on Ashland
where they had many events and a few minor little changes and took it back --

JJ:

On Ashland and Madison?

LT:

Well, there was a church on Ashland near Adams I believe. It wasn’t far from the
electric workers’ union hall, there was a trip there and that’s where the rally was
scheduled to happen. So, went back, [00:52:00] made the changes, went to -this is maybe a day later, went to the printing press, Omega Press, progressive

27

�printers in Hyde Park and I spent the night waiting for the flyer to be done. And
in the morning, about six in the morning, I got a phone call from [Sue Jan?] telling
me what had happened, Chairman Fred had been murdered. So, needless to
say, everything but the heading, the header came off, all the illustration,
everything else stayed the same, the place, the time, and it was reprinted, and I
waited for it and brought it back north. And yes, I remember that.
JJ:

How did that impact you and some of the other organizers?

LT:

Well, we were just to leave for Cuba and I remember one of the things that
people decided that the brigadistas would do because we did various community
service kinds of things in training before we left together, [00:53:00] was to stand
guard, to stand witness at the Panther office on Madison. So, we’d stand up and
down the stairways in case there was an attack or something, here’d be all these
people standing there waiting, watching, you know. I remember that. And I knew
a lot of the Panthers because I was one of the people like many of us at the
Information Center who sold the Black Panther paper all the time, so I would be
the one who would drive my little Toyota over there and would load it -- John
Preston would load up the car with Panther papers, take ’em back north and sell
’em at L stops and everywhere. Good paper. And then as I say, between the -there was a Young Patriots organization, later there was Rising Up Angry, there
was the [00:54:00] Panther Party, there was the Young Lords, People’s
Information, all these groups that really showed an example of the Rainbow
Coalition by our skin and by our politics, the solidarity among the peoples in the
community and that was (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

28

�JJ:

How would you describe that, I mean --

LT:

Well, I mean, because you could see organizations and individuals working
together toward common goals, especially for White people following leadership
of Third World people, or Black people, Puerto Rican, Mexican, whatever, Brown
people, Black people that we followed their example. The Panther Party started
the breakfast for children programs, the Serve the People Programs, STP. So,
that I thin in itself sent a message in terms of leadership not being, you know, for
people like me, formerly White suburban [00:55:00] kids at one time to come in
and feel that somehow we could run it. And no, we couldn’t because we didn’t
have that contact with the community, that understanding of what needed to be
done. So, it was a great learning experience for a lot of people to work with the
Panthers, the Young Lords no matter what it was about.

JJ:

You said contact with the community, what do you mean?

LT:

Well, like even in Lincoln Park, there were a lot of Puerta Rican people in Lincoln
Park, the place where I lived was pretty White, it was like a merging of, you
know, what they call the base now, a political base that that became everyone’s
base, all the progressive factors in a community. So, I just thought it was
important for people to see that when the politics are right, it can pull [00:56:00]
people together to work together to accomplish good things.

JJ:

Geographically, what would be the base?

LT:

Well, when I talk about Lincoln Park, I talk about that area between -- because it
had, oh I’d say between Armitage and Belden even, in terms of where people
were located. Because the Young Lords Church was on Dayton and Armitage,

29

�the People’s Information Center, People’s Law Office, the Women’s Union were
all on Halstead between them. So, those were some basic organizations, people
lived in lots of places, you know.
JJ:

What were some of the demonstrations that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?

LT:

Well, I remember when, wasn’t it the Young Lords who helped take over
McCormick Seminary, we were there too. And it was saying a lot in terms of
what McCormick Seminary should give back to the community. [00:57:00] It got
a lot of media coverage, and in fact, in the end McCormick Seminary did
acquiesce to do -- I can’t remember exactly, but I know that in some way that sitin, that occupation was successful in that did rest some power from that
institution in the community.

JJ:

Were you inside or not?

LT:

Well, I had been in -- I didn’t occupy, no, I didn’t live in there. The occupy came
later, I was part of occupy in Las Vegas. Occupy Las Vegas, what better place to
occupy? (laughs) Occupy a casino. But, that’s what I remember, and that was
very important. And I think it kinda set an example that institutions in a
community have an obligation to support the interests of the people in the
community, not just like -- it was in fact walled off, it had this black wrought iron
fence all the way [00:58:00] around it. Do you remember? And kinda like tried to
be an isolated island in the community. And I think people showed that it couldn’t
be, it had to relate to the community it existed in.

JJ:

And you mentioned Manuel Ramos, what do you remember of that?

30

�LT:

Well, I was trying to rack my brain to understand. I think I must have met him at
least. I didn’t know him well, but I know that when we returned from Cuba, just
before May Day, that’s what we learned. In Cuba we heard nothing about what
was going on back in the States, I mean, we didn’t have cell phones or the
internet or anything like that. So, this is what we were told when we got back that
he had been killed by police, was it a police -- I don’t remember the details, but I
do remember the turnout, that it was just this very impressive -- there were
pictures that showed people like six abreast walking down the middle [00:59:00]
of the street, I don’t know if it was Division or what it was. But I remember that
occasion because it seemed so apropos to come back from Cuba and see this
massing of progressive people demonstrating against the kind of attacks that
police were pulling off. In fact, later when I actually held a nine to five job, I
worked on the Red Squad Spy suit, and a lot of the people who spied on activists
in Lincoln Park and elsewhere were -- the lawyers got special permission to do
not court reporters which were so expensive, but actually tape record the
depositions of these spies and I was one of the people who transcribed -- that’s
the first transcription job I ever -- transcribed those depositions. And I could see
people walk through the office at the Better Government [01:00:00] Association
to the conference room for their deposition and recognize me --

JJ:

These are police?

LT:

-- and I would recognize them.

JJ:

These are police, undercover police?

31

�LT:

Yeah. The Red Squad started I think in the ’30s and it initiated to spy on labor,
labor unions, infiltrate them, report to the police. It went through the Peace
Movement, the anti-war movement, the Civil Rights -- it was always there. And in
fact, I think Michael Moore had a movie that talks about that kind of infiltration of
cops going to meetings and everything. And people who -- when they’d walk
through to that conference room and I looked at them and they knew who I was
’cause they’d spied on me and a lot of other people, it was just kind of this feeling
like, “Well, we gotcha now. We know what you are. You’re not a progressive
person, you were a spy for the cops all this time.”

JJ:

So, you actually saw your name in the [01:01:00] files or --

LT:

Well, I was part -- oh yeah, I was part -- I have my file. Of course, when you get
your file, did you ever get your file, it’s all redacted, big black lines through
everything that would indicate who it was that was reporting this information
about you. And there was a cop who every time I came out of Montana Street
apartment, [Maury Daly?], he’d be sitting in an unmarked car, wave to me, follow
me wherever I went, you know, that kind of intimidation, it was just kinda -- some
of it was just silliness.

JJ:

So, you’re saying they were going to the meetings? What else would they do?

LT:

They came to meetings whether it was civil rights or community meetings or
whatever as if they were ordinary people. I don’t wanna name names.

JJ:

No, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

LT:

And then once this --

JJ:

But can you describe some of the things that they were --

32

�LT:

Pardon?

JJ:

Can you describe some of the things they were doing?

LT:

Well, when they came to meetings and demonstrations, they didn’t stand out
from anybody else, you know, [01:02:00] it was a nice person, a teacher maybe
who claimed to believe in something and came and showed up with a sign or
whatever. But they were there to take names down, who was at the meeting,
who said what, that kinda stuff. And it happened all over the country, but we’re
familiar with it as the Red Squad suit. And back in the early ’80s, that was my job
at the BGA, I was transcribing those things and working solely on the suit. And
the files of people who were spied on and the spies were all stored there. So, I
could walk into the file room with dozens of file cabinets in it and my file was in
there, my Red Squad file. So, I was part of the class action.

JJ:

So, what about, is that COINTELPRO, is that the same thing or --

LT:

Not exactly. I mean, in a way it was [01:03:00] because there were other suits at
the same time.

JJ:

Can you describe COINTELPRO, what is that?

LT:

That was uncovered in the Percy Hearings I think, weren’t they, that it was a
national, run by the FBI especially. COINTELPRO was Counterintelligence
Program and they tracked the plot to kill Fred Hampton through COINTELPRO.
The Red Squad thing was a different thing, I really have no idea or recollection
how much of the local operation was influenced or mandated by national
COINTELPRO. I only know what happened here. And at the same time, we also
had a suit against military intelligence and the FBI, so different offices handled

33

�different aspects of the lawsuit. The Lawyers’ Committee to defend the Bill of
Rights I believe had the suit against the FBI and another organization, I can’t
remember which it was [01:04:00] that had the other part. So, I did a lot of the
typing of the brief for it. I mean, being a secretary had its advantages. I was also
the secretary in the Hampton civil suit and I still have the fly page from the
notebook that the People’s Law Office gave me. This was before computers. I
did it on my IBM Selectric typewriter, it was red. And they would come to my
house every night and sit around my dining room table and edit pages and I’d
have to go and cut and paste and put the document together. And the NACP
gave them a grant only for secretarial help like that. And so, before the lawyers
saw a penny, I was being paid, which I kinda felt bad about, but then again, I was
earning a living, but they didn’t get paid till the settlement [01:05:00] happened,
you know.
JJ:

And what were some of the things that came out in the trial, in the settlement?

LT:

Well, the documents were -- it was the complaint against the Chicago Red Squad
and it was incident after incident of evidence of police spying on people
exercising their constitutional rights, we hear a lot about constitutional rights
today, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly and the police were harassing -many people lost jobs because they would go to your boss and say, “Did you
know that your employee did this or that?” It was a big thick thing, don’t ask me
to recite it.

JJ:

(inaudible)

LT:

(laughs) But it existed and I did that.

34

�JJ:

But I heard they sent letters to different people --

LT:

Pardon?

JJ:

-- to spouses, they sent letters or --

LT:

There were a lot of -- [01:06:00] I don’t remember exact circumstances.

JJ:

So, they weren’t just collecting information, they were --

LT:

No, they collected information, but they also caused problems for people, it was
an intimidation. I mean, telling your boss that your employee is a -- I don’t wanna
call names, you know, a communist or who the heck knows, that can get you
fired. So, it was harmful, many people suffered direct injury from it. But most of
the class were any people who were intimidated from participating by presence
and knowledge that the Red Squad was afoot, spying on you even though we
didn’t know exactly who it might be that was the spy. And not to build it up to
sound like international spies, but some of them were people who were firmly
against what we were doing, the [01:07:00] kind of causes we were involved in
whether it was peace, civil rights, anti-war, whatever. And some of them might
have been people who did it in exchange for cops dropping a charge that they
mighta had, somebody gets caught doing something they shouldn’t and they
said, “Are you willing to do this?” And they say, “Sure, I’ll do that. Just don’t
arrest me for whatever I did wrong.” They came to it in a lot of ways. So, yeah.

JJ:

And was this brought up like in court, like some of the --

LT:

Well, I actually never went to court, it was only the lawyers who went to court.

JJ:

No, but I mean this information that the Red Squad gathered, was it used against
individuals?

35

�LT:

For it to be --

JJ:

Or, if you know.

LT:

-- in their files, it meant that the whole police department could look up somebody
and know what they were about. And whether they wanted to harass people
individually like going to their bosses or spouses or whatever, [01:08:00] or
whether they wanted to sabotage the work of organizations, sometimes there’d
be agent provocateurs, they weren’t just reporting, they were suggesting things
that might be illegal to try to get people to do things they shouldn’t, so they could
be arrested. There was a whole array of dirty tricks that they did. And I only
mention it because from being a victim myself, although not harmed as much as
other people were, to being a person who could sit there and watch these spies
kind of be called [to just?], they were outed, suddenly the whole movement knew
who these people were. And just to be at that desk before the conference room
as they walked in and looked at me, and I looked at them as if to say, “Now, I
know who you really are.” [01:09:00]

JJ:

What about, did you hear anything about Reverend Bruce Johnson?

LT:

No. No.

JJ:

No?

LT:

I know I had met him when the Young Lords were in the church, but I knew
nothing about what went on there. Yeah.

JJ:

I said that because it happened just about a month and a half before Fred
Hampton’s death.

LT:

Really? Oh, it had happened before.

36

�JJ:

(overlapping conversation; inaudible)

LT:

I remember that it happened, but I knew nothing about the details.

JJ:

(overlapping conversation; dialogue) September 29th.

LT:

Did they ever find who did it?

JJ:

No, it actually is still a cold case.

LT:

Still a cold case.

JJ:

They haven’t found out who did it or --

LT:

No.

JJ:

-- I don’t think they want to find out.

LT:

Yeah. Were they trying to blame the Young Lords?

JJ:

The Young Lords were blamed, yes. I mean, they were at least insinuated.

LT:

Yeah. You know, through the years, you might have remembered the Lincoln
Park, oh what was it? Remember Dick Vision.

JJ:

Same thing.

LT:

Yeah. I remember [01:10:00] his -- ’cause that struggle was against urban
renewal in the community. And I was friends with Dick, in fact, I went up to -when my daughter was born, [Maya?], we took a trip up to British Columbia to
visit him and his wife and little daughter Revy for revolution, Revolutionary Hope,
it turns out her name was really Hope, but that’s what they called her, Revy. And
we stayed up there, talk about cold, I’m never going back in February to British
Columbia, but it was beautiful. Yeah, he was a good guy and then he went to
China to teach English in China and the last I heard he married a Chinese
woman, I think he’s still there. Yeah.

37

�JJ:

(inaudible) recently (inaudible), but that’s another issue.

LT:

Have we covered everything?

JJ:

What else, what do you think (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

F2:

I think it was pretty complete.

JJ:

It was pretty complete. [01:11:00] How about the People’s Law Office that you -whatever you called it?

LT:

Well, I worked with the People's Law Office on the Hampton suit.

JJ:

(inaudible)

LT:

I mean, I typed the complaint for it and it was the, as I said the NACP who paid
for that. Yes, I was close, I mean Flint and Jeff and Jeff wrote a wonderful book,
The Assassination of Fred Hampton which I have an autographed copy of. And I
still sometimes check Chicago papers and Flint’s still involved in fighting for
justice on all kinds of fronts. And now a big thing is the Innocence Projects, all
over the country. When I worked at the BGA, the guy who started it at
Northwestern, David Protess, I worked in the same office with him and then he
went on to start the Innocence Project at Northwestern, and now they’re
everywhere, there’s even an Innocence Project in Las Vegas. So, I think that’s a
[01:12:00] great thing, trying to fight for freedom of people wrongly incarcerated.

JJ:

So, what do you think were the main -- the most important aspect of that era, that
(inaudible)?

LT:

Of the era. I think it was always, there had to be the fight against racism
because no matter where you turned, that was very central to a struggle, yeah. I
remember later I worked with an organization that had a newspaper called

38

�Frontline, On the “Frontline Against War and Racism,” that those were the twin
kind of anchors of the progressive movement and they really were. When you
talk about U.S. military intervention in Central America, that’s the war aspect and
as well as racism, the idea that the United States Government could dictate to
other countries how they should govern their countries and things like that.
[01:13:00]
JJ:

Now, you went in the church several time or --

LT:

Oh yeah, I’d be in the church.

JJ:

What was it like, can you describe -- to you, what was it like to you?

LT:

Pardon?

JJ:

What was it like to you?

LT:

It was like a church. I don’t know. (laughs) I remember I was there when you
had the clinic in the church, I remember visiting the clinic, I remember you had a
breakfast for children program. Yeah, that’s the parts that I remember. But
mostly I remember that it was just this -- in the community, the activists in the
community. ’Cause at the People’s Information Center, we had a breakfast
program, at the church on Diversey, there was the Fritzi Engelstein, Free
People’s Health Clinic and the mural is still there on that church. And it just
made the whole larger community [01:14:00] so much more -- these progressive
aspects so visible whether you are an Armitage or a Diversey or Halsted or
whatever, you got the impression that there were progressive people doing good
stuff in this community.

JJ:

A base like (inaudible).

39

�LT:

Yeah, it was a base. Of course, you know what urban renewal did to that. And
when I would drive down Halsted and see the fancy expensive housing that was
built on People’s Park or whatever, it almost makes you wonder, did all that other
stuff really happen, you know, when you see it so transformed. But it was a
special era, and I don’t see -- I haven’t seen anything like it since then. I think it
was very unique, it was, people had a sense of power that they could do stuff
and [01:15:00] I don’t see it that way now. There’s so much separateness
between the environmental movement or the anti-war movement or the anti-nuke
movement or whatever. Some activists circulate among all of them, but there’s
no coming together, the kind of coalition that worked in Lincoln Park and around
Chicago then.

JJ:

Now, in terms of the Women’s Movement, how did that fit in?

LT:

I was probably less active in the Women’s Movement than I was in any of the
other stuff. And it’s ironic because a new movie’s coming out that -- did you ever
know my friend Ethan Young?

JJ:

You know, I heard his name, yeah.

LT:

Yeah? He’s a writer, he’s in New York, he lives in Brooklyn and his wife Mary
Dore has just collaborated with another filmmaker to make this wonderful movie
about the Women’s Movement in the ’70s, which was really -- I mean the
Women’s Movement didn’t just start then, it’s been going since before [01:16:00]
suffragettes, you know. But it’s really great ’cause there are a lot of Chicago
faces in it, I’ve seen the trailer for it. It’s called, She’s Beautiful When She’s
Angry. And that’s the name of the film, and it should be out within a month. But I

40

�wasn’t as active in that as I was in whether it was Cuba or breakfast program or
all the other stuff that was going on in the community.
JJ:

Was there any work being done at all?

LT:

Pardon?

JJ:

You said there was a women’s group.

LT:

Oh, there was, oh, yes, I just wasn’t as active in it myself personally.

JJ:

Okay.

LT:

Yeah. Oh, yes, they were very much, yeah. If you kinda keep a tabs on it and
Google the movie, when it comes out, you watch it online and you’ll see, “Oh,
there’s so and so.” You’ll know faces. It’s a good thing.

JJ:

Okay, we’re kinda tapering down, but any final thoughts?

LT:

Not really. I just think that there’s always something to be done, maybe -- it’s
kinda like in an electoral campaign, not everybody can walk and knock doors, not
everybody can cold call people in a phone bank. But people can write letters to
the editor, people can make comments online articles, people can individually
find a demonstration to go to or a forum to attend or a donation to make. There’s
always something people can do to strengthen that movement and they should
do it.

JJ:

All right. Thank you.

LT:

You’re welcome.
End Of Audio File

41

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                    <text>Abba
From the series: Images of God in the Stories of Jesus
Text: Mark 1:35
Richard A. Rhem
Christ Community Church
Spring Lake, Michigan
Pentecost IX, August 9, 1992
Transcription of the spoken sermon
Images fill and shape the landscape of our lives. More than theoretical or abstract
philosophical principles or statements of truth, we are shaped by stories, by
pictures, by images, by metaphor. Metaphor is something with which we all live.
We make metaphors constantly. Metaphor--the word itself comes from two
Greek words. Meta is a preposition, which means across or behind or over. And
pherein is a Greek verb, which means to carry or to bear. Thus a metaphor carries
one across or over the gulf of unknowing. That which is not accessible to us in our
ordinary understanding is made accessible to us through metaphors, which are
created out of familiar experiences in terms of which we speak of the mystery
beyond us.
God is the great Mystery beyond us. The Mystery that confronts us, that embraces
us, toward Whom we grope and yearn and long. We speak of familiar things,
thereby to relate to the God beyond our experience. We experience God through
the knowledge of those common things, analogies that help us to know something
of the Mystery of God.
Jesus spoke in stories and pictures, images, metaphors. In fact we might say that
Jesus was God’s living metaphor, enfleshed. “The word became flesh and dwelt
among us,” so that our hands handle him; our ears hear him; our eyes look upon
him--the Word of Life. Jesus said, “If you have seen me you have seen the
Father.” Paul said, “We have seen the light of the revelation of the glory of God in
the face of Jesus Christ.” God has drawn close to us and drawn away the veil for
us in the metaphor that is Jesus. It is the only way we can have true knowledge or
experience of God: through an image or a metaphor. And so, in these next weeks,
I want us to look at the images of God in the stories of Jesus.
But I am not going to begin this morning with a story that Jesus told. I am going
to begin with a portrait of Jesus that Mark paints for us - of Jesus before the
break of day, in a lonely place--praying to God. As we see Jesus there, we see him
embodying for us his knowledge and understanding of his relationship with God,
of who he was for him.
© Grand Valley State University

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�Abba: Images of God

Richard A. Rhem

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Have you been to Palestine? Imagine the hills overlooking the Sea of Galilee,
Jesus slipping away quietly before dawn. Mark tells us that the previous day had
been filled with ministry. In the old King James translation of the Bible, the
Gospel of Mark has that word straightway . Straightway he did this and
straightway he did that, and straightway he did another thing. In the RSV the
word is immediately. Immediately, immediately, immediately. And if you follow
long enough in the Gospel of Mark you are almost out of breath, because he takes
you on such a torrid pace. And such had been the pace of Jesus that previous day.
I’ve had those kinds of days. But after they are over and I am drained, I try to
sleep in the next morning! Not Jesus. A great while before dawn he’s off. By
himself in a lonely place, he prays to gather his thoughts and let the serenity of
the place wash over him. Becoming centered, he opens his life in the presence of
the Mystery that is God. He begins his communing with God very simply: “Abba.”
It was, in Jesus day an affectionate address for a parent. Daddy. Papa. It was as a
child’s word, and in Jesus’ day it was rather common parlance, an affectionate
term for a father. What was unique was that Jesus used that simple unaffected
word of address to address God. That was not common. It may in fact have been
non-existent except for Jesus’ usage.
The rabbinical devotion of Jesus’ day gives little indication that anyone in Jewish
piety would have thought to address God simply as Papa. But the NT scholar,
Edward Schilebeek, says that the whole essence of Jesus’ life and ministry is
summed up in that word of address. That simple straight-forward, intimate,
unaffected word of address, Abba. And although Abba is transliterated in our
New Testament in only three places, (in the Gospels, the Gospel of Mark, and in
the Garden of Gethsemanae: “Abba, Father, now is my soul troubled.”);
nonetheless, wherever “Father” appears in the Gospel as an address to God, in
the words of Jesus or the prayer life of Jesus, the word behind it was Abba. It so
impressed the New Testament community that Paul, for example, says in
Romans 8 that “the Spirit testifies with us that we are the children of God and we
pray, Abba , Father,” and again “in the fullness of time God sent forth his son who
has given us his Spirit whereby we cry Abba, Father.” The early church was
indelibly marked by that simple, unaffected, straight-forward, intimate, personal
address of Jesus to God. The word for Jesus bespoke a conception of God as the
solid undergirding of life, the one who secures and guides and counsels, the one
who nurtures and provides and sustains.
Jesus in using Abba revealed the conviction that was the whole center of his life-that God was like a parent, a good parent who could be trusted. Abba. “Abba in
heaven, hallowed be thy name.” “ Abba, now is my soul troubled.” “ Abba. Why
have you forsaken me?” “Abba, forgive them, they don’t know what they are
doing.” “Abba. Into your hand I commend my Spirit.” Jesus’ understanding and
relationship to God can be summed up in that simple word of address. His was a
confident resting in the goodness, the compassion, the grace of God, related to as
a loving, faithful, trustworthy parent.

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In his day Jesus was unique in using Abba, but he could point to a long,
Scriptural tradition when he prayed thus, prayed intimately to God in that
personal manner.
Psalm 103 is one of the most beautiful expressions of such intimate relationship
in the Old Testament. In verses 13 and 14 we read, “as a father pities his children,
so the Lord pities those who fear him, for he knows our frame, he remembers that
we are dust.” God doesn’t expect us to be more than we are. God knows what we
are. To be human is enough. God loves us. The compassion of God is ours as a
father has compassion on his children. The word compassion in the Hebrew is
rechem and that word has a root that means “womb.” The description of God as a
compassionate father is really a maternal image that comes from the idea of
womb – the womb, that place that is warm and secure and life-sustaining. God’s
compassion, God’s mercy is compared to the warmth and nurture of the womb.
The 8th verse speaks of God as being merciful and gracious, the word gracious is
also in the Hebrew a maternal word.
Samuel Terrien, an Old Testament scholar, speaks of being in those biblical lands
and talking to a sheik who was herding camels. He heard the yearning cries of
camels off in the distance and he asked, “What is that cry?” The sheik answered
that those particular camels had recently borne young and the young had forcibly
been removed in order to wean them. The cries of those mother camels conveyed
their yearning for their young.
The word “gracious” used of God in Psalm 103, verse 8, is the same word as that
used for the maternal longing for young that have been forcibly separated. The
womb. The maternal longing. This is the imagery of the compassionate father
who has mercy on his children.
The Old Testament is really saturated with the intimate and personal images of
fatherhood and motherhood--beautiful images. In Isaiah 49:15, for example, Zion
has said, “The Lord has forsaken me. My Lord has forgotten me.” To which the
response is, “Can a woman forget her nursing child or show no compassion for
the child of her womb? Even these may forget, yet I will not forget you.” A mother
nursing a child whom she has borne, how could she forget? But, if she could
forget, yet I will never forget. And in Isaiah 66, “As a mother comforts her child,
so I will comfort you. You shall be comforted in Jerusalem.” Images of a good
trustworthy parent. Mother love. Father love. The nurturing, sustaining, life
sustaining, guiding, counseling love and grace of a good parent is used as a
metaphor to help us understand the nature of God.
So in that quiet place, alone with God, Jesus says, “Abba.” Although taking
privileges no pious Jew dare take, Jesus trusts the more ancient sense, and
reflects in that word, the deep, rich Hebrew tradition of faith in the God of
steadfast love -trustworthy, covenant keeping, full of grace.

© Grand Valley State University

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Another image, perhaps the most beautiful and familiar image is the image of the
Good Shepherd. It is interesting to note that that image has transcended its locale
of origin. How many of you have seen a shepherd? Well maybe you have; perhaps
you have been to Palestine, and seen a shepherd out on the hills with a flock of
sheep, guiding them to pasture, protecting, keeping. David, purportedly the
author of the 23rd Psalm, records his powerful metaphorical insight, “The Lord is
my shepherd.” He was using that which was most familiar to him out of his daily
experience, and therein conjured up this beautiful image that still today moves us
and will move future generations as well, thanks to Colette’s Worship Center, the
fundamental image of which is the Good Shepherd. Rather interesting though,
isn’t it? In a scientific day, technological society, a day of computers, computer
chips, and space travel we can be moved by “The Lord is my shepherd.” A
hundred years ago when I was in Sunday School they used to pass out Sunday
School papers, and I remember the picture of the Good Shepherd, Jesus, with the
lamb in the crook of his arm. I wonder if that is what causes me to feel warm
when I think about the Good Shepherd? Whatever it is, that image, that
metaphor has been able to transcend its time and its place of origin, and it
continues to speak to us. To that extent it is a valuable metaphor, still a
meaningful image. God isn’t a shepherd, of course, God isn’t a father, God isn’t a
mother. But the imagery conveys God to us, in terms of the familiar that we
know, communicates to us the Mystery beyond our ability fully to comprehend.
We need to continue to find those metaphors and images that will move us. We
could take all the metaphors and images of the Bible and scrap them--shepherd-father--mother--king--prince--refiner’s fire. We could scrap them all and we
wouldn’t dishonor God. We wouldn’t detract one bit from God. We wouldn’t
touch God. Because God is not the metaphor; the metaphor is only a figure of
speech to help us to reach after and hopefully get in touch with God. But we could
by rewriting the metaphors. And probably we should be about that--calling on
new metaphors, out of our own experience, our own world. I wonder . . . I wonder
if the masses have left the church because there’s a musty sound and smell, the
language of Zion, all of it from another world, and another time.
There is a minister in the United Reformed Church of Great Britain, Brian Wren,
who believes the church can be transformed by poetry. God knows it can’t be
transformed by theological debate. All we do is choose up sides and then shoot
one another. You can’t argue rationally the truth of God. But images, stories they can change us. That is why Brian Wren says poetry can transform the
church. And he’s done his best. We have printed a couple of his poems in the
bulletin. We are going to sing one in a moment, and we have sung another one on
occasion. On the cover of the bulletin you will find, “Are You the Friendly God?” I
love it. Look at the second line, the image there: “Spirit of brooding …” At the
baptismal font I spoke of the spirit that brooded over the waters of creation, and
Brian Wren picks up that biblical image. But he brings it into our own experience.
“Hovering wings,” again a beautiful, ancient biblical image, yet with a freshness
that speaks to us.

© Grand Valley State University

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Richard A. Rhem

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And the second line, “Are you the gambler-God…?” Now that should shock you!
“… spinning the wheel of creation.” Can’t you see it? Wheel of Fortune! God
spinning the wheel of creation. Giving it randomness. Do you recognize that word
randomness? Do you read any of the esoteric physics, the cosmology of our day,
the physicists who are probing the basic stuff of the universe? They speak about
randomness, the randomness of atoms and electrons. Our cosmos is not a
machine grinding on its way. There is a certain randomness to life, the physicists
tell us. And don’t we know it? Don’t we know it in our own experience? Life isn’t
all neat and cut and dried, predetermined. What will happen tomorrow? What
decisions will you make? Do you have some freedom to go this way or that? You
surely do! Randomness. The image immediately turns me on. This is someone
who is talking about the God that is more like my present experience than even
the shepherd to be honest with you. God willing to be surprised! “… taking a
million chances …”
But then the third stanza comes back again and reminds us of our deep covenant
faith in a faithful God, a God of steadfast love. And how about line two of that
stanza, “... quilting our histories.” Come to the Geneva Room on Tuesdays and
watch the quilters making their beautiful patterns and see that metaphor
enfleshed. “…patching our sins with grace.” Don’t you love that? And the final
line, “… all of our ends are wrapped in love’s beginning.” The creator will be the
consummator. All of the promises of God will come to fruition.
On the next page, “Name Unnamed.” We’ve sung that one and you know I love it!
The second stanza was last week’s sermon, “Spinner of Chaos, pulling and
twisting, freeing the fibers of pattern and form . . .” Can’t you see God, as weaver?
Don’t you see the tapestry under way? “Nudging Discomforter”--just when we
thought we had all the answers, God raises another question. “Straight-Talking
lover . . .” “Midwife of Changes . . .” “Dare-devil Gambler . . .” “giving us freedom
to shatter your dreams . . .” Has God given us power to shatter God’s dreams?
God knows we are able! “Life-giving Loser . . .” In a world that only worships
winners, Jesus was willing to come and to be true to God--to lose his life.
“…wounded and weeping . . . But not staying there . . . dancing and leaping . . .” in
Resurrection’s power; “. . . sharing and caring that heals and redeems.” Ah, there
are some images right out of today and this world.
I suppose that one of the images that has been instrumental in transforming
more lives in the last century than any other is an image that isn’t really very
warm and vivid, but nonetheless it works - the Higher Power. And in the Twelve
Step community, AA in its wisdom has refused to put flesh and blood on the
Higher Power. It leaves it for people to flesh out individually--people--people like
us all, although not all of us know it, but people who have said in all honesty, “my
life is out of control.” We then speak of the Higher Power in concrete tangible
form--metaphor--speak of the ways it has come to us. Perhaps through the
gentle, open acceptance of a child, or in the sound of lapping waves, which seem
to connect us with the heartbeat of One larger than ourselves. A metaphor of a

© Grand Valley State University

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Richard A. Rhem

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Higher Power as friend, or captain of our Earth Ship, or director of our pluralistic
choir. A Higher Power. The point is not the metaphor, it is the power of God, the
experience of God. It is God touching our lives. That’s what we need. Never argue
for a metaphor. Metaphors come and go. They are negotiable. They are transient.
They are only good as long as they move us. I don’t think we are ever going to be
able to reach back and rejuvenate, retrieve Abba. When we prayed it together, at
the beginning of the Lord’s Prayer, as Jesus would have, it (Abba) doesn’t do it
for us, does it? It did it for Jesus. But it doesn’t really do it for us in the same way.
What will do it for you? What do you need God to be? God is --and a whole lot
more.
Find that image, that metaphor of God, in which you can rest and taste grace.

© Grand Valley State University

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
The Cold War
Marvin Abbott

Interview Length: (00:36:56:00)
Pre-enlistment / Training (00:00:38:00)
 Abbott was born in June 1938 on a farm in Decatur, Michigan; growing up, Abbott
attended a country school before going to Decatur for high school (00:00:38:00)
 After graduating from high school, Abbott attended Michigan State University from 1956
until 1960; at the time, attending ROTC was mandatory, so Abbott volunteered for the
second two years (00:01:02:00)
o When Abbott graduated from Michigan State, he received a commission having
successfully completed the ROTC program (00:01:22:00)
o One aspect everyone in the ROTC program had to complete was a basic training
portion and Abbott completed his between his junior and senior years; all ROTC
students from Michigan State and other colleges and universities in the area went
to Fort Riley, Kansas for the basic training, so in the summer of 1959, Abbott
spent six weeks there, satisfying the basic training requirement (00:01:33:00)
 During the six weeks, the students went through the traditional basic
training, including: KP, guard duty, physical training, work on the rifle
range, hand to hand combat, tactics, marching and inspections among
other things (00:02:09:00)
o Abbott returned to Michigan State in the fall and upon graduation, received a 2nd
lieutenant commission in the artillery branch, specifically in the air defense
branch (00:02:33:00)
o After receiving his commission, a soldier either served two years or six months
and a lot, including Abbott, received a six-month enlistment because there were
so many of them at the time and not a lot of conflict in the world (00:03:03:00)
 Abbott’s initial orders were for a six month active-duty enlistment and he
was told not to report until the following May, so he took a job near where
his parents lived (00:03:14:00)
 Once he finally did report, Abbott drove to El Paso, Texas and Fort Bliss, where the air
defense artillery school was located (00:03:31:00)
o When Abbott reported in early May, he first went through the officer orientation,
which was an eight week class (00:03:45:00)
o During the training, the soldiers had to receive security clearance because they
dealt primarily with the Nike missile, which could be loaded with nuclear
warheads (00:03:56:00)
 There were also classes that dealt with the radio codes that the soldiers
would be using; a typical Nike site was spread out over twenty or thirty
acres and sometimes the soldiers would communicate using telephones
and other times by using radios (00:04:20:00)

�

The soldiers also worked with computers, as primitive as they were at the
time, and needed security clearance for that (00:04:40:00)
o The Nike missile was the primary missile the soldiers studied and it had two
variants, the Ajax and the Zeus; the Ajax was the initial version of the missile but
before Abbott arrived at Fort Bliss, the Army developed the Zeus, which was four
Nike mortars put together, allowing for a larger warhead, higher altitudes, and a
longer range (00:04:53:00)
o One of the highlights of the training was one morning, all the soldiers were woken
up and driven into New Mexico, where the was a practice firing range for the
missiles (00:05:28:00)
 Most of the missile units around the country at the time were run by
National Guard troops, although there were some Reserve- and ActiveDuty-run sites, and every so often, each unit would have to leave their
assigned location, travel to New Mexico, and set up there to go through
firing missiles at drone targets (00:05:50:00)
 They would start the drone at the south end of the range and flew it
towards the missile, which were located at the north end of the
range; as soon as they acquired the drone, the crew would fire a
missile (00:06:21:00)
 The range that the soldiers fired the missile on was itself larger
than the state of Rhode Island (00:06:34:00)
o Abbott and the other soldiers graduated in the beginning of July and because he
still had four months left on his original enlist, Abbott was told to report to Fort
Knox, Kentucky at the end of July (00:06:45:00)
Active-Duty (00:07:12:00)
 Once he arrived at Fort Knox, Abbott was assigned to the Army Training Center and a
specific basic training company as an executive officer (XO) (00:07:12:00)
o As an XO, Abbott did not have a full-time job because the company commander
was there and Abbott would just occasionally fill in so that the commander could
have a little time off (00:07:40:00)
o However, Abbott received other assignments, including being the guard post
officer several times, which was a little different at Fort Knox because of the gold
supply stored on the base (00:07:52:00)
 The guards were stationed in a building not too far away from where the
gold was stored and the commanders made sure they all understood what
to do if something happened with the gold supply (00:08:07:00)
 When the soldiers pulled guard duty, there where three shifts, two of
which stayed in the guard building; once retreat came, one of the two
waiting shifts would take the flag down, fold it and a reveille the next
morning, put the flag up (00:08:29:00)
 The commanders made sure the guards had enough vehicles, more than
the guards really needed because if something happened to the gold, the
guards had run out and drive the vehicles to the gold supply (00:09:20:00)

�









However, the guards were never told what to do when they were at
the building where the gold was kept, only to wait outside the gate
(00:09:37:00)
 Not every assignment required the guards to carry live ammunition; all the
guards carried weapons but only in certain areas, such as the bank, PX, or
any place with money, did the guards carry ammunition (00:09:47:00)
 Most of the time, the weapon a guard carried was either for show
or was a night stick (00:10:07:00)
 One time, they loaded halve a dozen bus loads of soldiers who had been
trained at Fort Knox and took them to Fort Riley for a weekend and
Abbott ended up having to do escort duty for trip (00:10:22:00)
In August, the soldiers noticed that the Russians and East Germans were building a wall
around West Berlin, which really excited President Kennedy, who called up a lot of
higher ranking officers and NCOs and shipped them to Germany (00:10:41:00)
o As best the soldiers who remained in the United States could figure, the deployed
soldiers were either keeping an eye on what the Russians and East Germans were
doing or stationed in West Germany in case anything went wrong (00:11:16:00)
o At the beginning of September, Abbott was not due to be discharged until a
month later but he received orders that he would be extended for another twelve
months on active-duty on top of the original six months, meaning Abbott would
have a year and a half enlistment (00:11:41:00)
 Further down the road, Abbott extended for the remaining six months,
making his enlistment a full two years (00:12:04:00)
Towards the end of October, about three weeks before the original six months were
complete, Abbott assumed command of the basic training company next to the company
he had been working with as the executive officer (00:12:28:00)
o Abbott stayed with the training company for the better part of fourteen months
and completed six, eight-week basic training cycles; Abbott usually had between
a few days and a couple of weeks off between training cycles (00:12:53:00)
o When new recruits came in, Abbott went to the processing center and watched as
the recruits received hair cuts and uniforms, which took a few days to happen;
afterwards, Abbott, plus his platoon leaders and NCOs, went to the processing
center and tried to march the recruits back to the company area (00:13:16:00)
 Abbott and the other instructors had eight weeks to try and make soldiers
out of the recruits by putting them through similar exercises that Abbott
had gone through while at Fort Riley (00:13:52:00)
o Just before his commanders turned over command to the lieutenant who was his
XO, Abbott was promoted to 1st lieutenant (00:14:27:00)
In October 1962 was the Cuban Missile Crisis, which caused excitement even Fort Knox
and some soldiers from the base, although none from the training center, had to deploy
(00:14:48:00)
o At the time, Fort Knox was the main armored training center and some of the
older soldiers on the base who had served during World War II told stories of
General Patton coming to the base for training (00:15:05:00)
During the same period of time, there were around a thousand Cuban exiles who had left
Cuba and there was a program that they could join the military; however, when the

�

Cubans joined, the Army kept them as a separate unit, about the size of a battalion, and
kept that battalion near where Abbott’s training company was (00:15:47:00)
o Most of the Cubans could not speak English, only Spanish, so in order to have
cadre for the battalion, the commanders pulled any Spanish-speaking cadre out of
Abbott’s battalion and sent them to the Cuban battalion (00:16:25:00)
 Abbott did not have any Spanish-speaking cadre in his company but the
company he had left had two (00:16:47:00)
 Every now and then, the Spanish-speaking cadre would drift back and talk
with Abbott and the others and revealed that they feared for their lives
working with the Cubans (00:17:03:00)
 The cadre stayed with the Cubans all the time and they eventually
determined they needed someone awake in each barracks every
night because the Cubans would steal anything and everything,
from weapons to ammunition, and get into fights (00:17:16:00)
 The Cubans' assumption when they joined the program was they would
receiving training and either the United States would invade Cuba or they
would send the Cuban forces back, similar to the Bay of Pigs, which
happened a month before Abbott went onto active-duty (00:18:05:00)
o The NCOs who came back said that the Cubans had a lot of trouble accepting the
concept of teamwork; each one had decided that when he went back, he was
going to be the commanding general (00:18:32:00)
o As well, the Cuban soldiers complained about almost everything (00:18:54:00)
 For Abbott’s recruits, they had to march to reach the firing range and
march back but the Cubans did not like that idea and they complained
enough that the commanding general decided to use trucks to transport
them around (00:18:57:00)
 During one day in the fall, it was a rainy and chilly and Abbott’s company
was on a firing range while the Cubans were on another range about a mile
to a mile-and-a-half away, although Abbott did not realize it
(00:19:36:00)
 Once they finished on the firing range, Abbott had the recruits
ready to march back when all of the sudden, they heard trucks
coming and they knew what that meant (00:19:56:00)
 The sergeant Abbott had running the recruits looked at Abbott,
asked if he thought they should “shanghai” some of the trucks, and
Abbott told him to go for it (00:20:23:00)
 The sergeant went down, waved his hands, and the trucks drivers
pulled up to the range, where the recruits loaded up and were
driven back to their barracks; it took a couple of loads but the
drivers took Abbott’s recruits back first before going to pick up the
Cubans (00:20:40:00)
Around the end of November, Abbott was relieved of his company command and
assigned to the battalion headquarters to work as the S-1/S-3 in-charge of personnel and
training for the battalion; however, at that level, Abbott had a sergeant major who did
most of the work for him (00:21:06:00)

�o At the time, the battalion had a newly-arrived commander, a major who was out
to make a name for himself; although the battalion was good before he arrived,
the major decided he wanted to sharpen it up (00:21:42:00)
o The major told Abbott that he would take care of training with the company
commanders and Abbott would take care of the paperwork (00:22:01:00)
 Every company had a training NCO who had to keep track of the records
for every recruit going through the training at the time; on occasion, a
recruit would be sick or have another assignment that took him away from
training and they had to get the training made up (00:22:16:00)
 Towards the end of the eight weeks, usually in the seventh week, there
was a large inspection and the higher-level officers would come down to
inspect the paperwork (00:22:47:00)
 The major had Abbott going to all the training companies, none of whom
had the same schedule because they picked up their recruits at different
times, which was a lot of the work Abbott did (00:23:00:00)
o Another one of Abbott’s assignments was running an Article 32 investigation on
damaged radio equipment that a soldier had taken out and returned damaged but
refused to pay for (00:23:23:00)
 An Article 32 investigation was similar to a grand jury, meaning it was
typically run by one person, and after Abbott’s investigation, the soldier
would still not relent, so he went through a court-marshal (00:23:46:00)
o During that time, Abbott also served in the general court-marshal board for
around a month to six weeks (00:24:02:00)
 The board typically met once a week and heard whatever cases came
before them for that typical day (00:24:10:00)
Reserve Duty (00:24:26:00)
 On May 9th, 1963, Abbott was released from active duty and assigned to the Army
Reserve Control Group in Battle Creek, Michigan; Abbott did not have to immediately
report, so he arrived at the assignment in July (00:24:26:00)
o At the time, there were two reserve units stationed in Benton Harbor, Michigan;
one was platoon-sized, with around fifty soldiers, and the other was companysized with around one hundred soldiers (00:24:48:00)
o Abbott’s commanders attached him to the smaller unit, the 511th Transportation
Platoon, which dealt with transporting soldiers and equipment around and was a
B.A.R.C. (Barge Amphibious Re-supply Cargo) unit (00:25:07:00)
 The B.A.R.C. was a massive four-wheeled vehicle that could not be drive
down the city streets, so none were in Benton Harbor (00:20:30:00)
 The unit’s summer camp was at Fort Story, Virginia, which was where all
the B.A.R.C.s in the country were kept; the base itself was located where
the James River flowed into the Atlantic Ocean, downstream from
Norfolk, Virginia (00:25:48:00)
 Larger Navy ships had to sail up the James in order to reach
Norfolk (00:26:06:00)
 There was a Navy post next to Fort Story called Little Creek and
smaller ships, such as LSTs, were located there (00:26:12:00)

�





The B.A.R.C.s were large enough to haul an M-60 tank, the largest tank
the military had at the time, or an entire company of soldiers
(00:26:28:00)
 There was a ramp in the front that could be dropped so forklifts
could haul cargo off or vehicles could be driven off (00:26:45:00)
 The unit’s actual training with B.A.R.C.s happened for the two weeks they
were at Fort Story in the summer and Abbott attended the camps 1964
until 1968 (00:27:01:00)
o Although Abbott was attached to the unit in August, he was not assigned to it
until November because the unit’s previous commanding officer had been
promoted to major and the commanding position was only available to a captain,
so they moved the major on, promoted his XO to lead the unit and brought in
Abbott as the XO, where he stayed until the end of his Reserve duty
(00:27:21:00)
Abbott originally joined the Army in the artillery branch but when he was assigned to the
B.A.R.C. unit, he changed to the transportation branch (00:27:54:00)
o The Vietnam war was looking close at that point, although actual combat was still
a few years away (00:28:07:00)
 While Abbott was at Fort Knox, on some Saturday mornings, the officers
and senior NCOs went to an auditorium and received lectures about what
was happening in Vietnam; the war had not yet broken out but the Army
was constantly putting Special Forces into the country (00:28:16:00)
 Whenever a soldier went to Vietnam in the early part, he was a volunteer
and Abbott knew several soldiers who did volunteer to go (00:29:03:00)
o When he switch to the transportation branch, Abbott went to Fort Eustis, Virginia,
which was there the Army Transportation Corps was located, to take a basic
officer extension course (00:29:22:00)
o Abbott finished the extension course in a couple of months and in Dec. 1963, the
Army sent out orders that he had completed the course and had switched to the
transportation branch (00:29:41:00)
Abbott stayed in the service but the 1968, the Vietnam War was hot; Abbott was due out
at that time but he hung on, hoping for a promotion and within a few months, received a
promotion to captain (00:30:07:00)
o Once he received the promotion to captain, Abbott asked for and received a
discharge, finally leaving the Army in Sept. 1968 (00:30:34:00)

Reflections (00:30:53:00)
 Abbott feels that his time in the service helped him a lot, especially the time spent at the
training center, although the first training cycle was horrendous (00:30:53:00)
o Abbott had only been in the Army for five months and although he had been
around the training, he had never had an responsibility in the training, so he did
not know what he was confronted with and it was tough (00:31:03:00)
 The company he took over had been the top company in the battalion for
several years under the previous commanders and the top NCOs in the
company had been there for the better part of a year, so the history was
important to them (00:31:24:00)

�





The company went from the top to the bottom but the one thing Abbott
learned was that he had to start studying (00:31:45:00)
 At one point, the first sergeant told Abbott that he was signing all
the inspection orders and the other sergeants knew this, so they
were writing down anything (00:31:52:00)
 The other NCOs knew Abbott did not really know what he was
doing and were nice to him, while the only one who confronted
him was the first sergeant, who was a World War II vet that spent
most of the war in POW camp and had been around (00:32:19:00)
Abbott’s brother graduated from Michigan State three years after Abbott and by the time
the brother got into the military, the hot war was starting in Vietnam; the brother was part
of the quartermaster branch, went to Vietnam for a year, and helped set up a supply depot
to the north of Saigon (00:32:53:00)
o The brother did not have much experience in the enemy actually firing at him but
every now and then, he would send a letter home saying that someone had driven
past the depot in a jeep and the soldiers on the depot heard gunfire (00:34:06:00)
Abbott’s brother-in-law also went to Vietnam and because he chose to make the military
a career, deployed to Vietnam twice; the brother-in-law was also in the artillery branch,
but in field artillery, and worked as a forward observer (00:34:31:00)

Examination of photographs (00:35:36:00) - (00:36:56:00)

�</text>
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                    <text>Living with PFAS
Interviewee: Abigail Hendershott
Interviewer: Dani DeVasto
Date: August 13, 2021

DD: I’m Dani DeVasto and today, August 13th, 2021 I have the pleasure of chatting with Abby
Hendershott. Hi Abby.
AH: Hi Dani. Nice to be here.
DD: Yes, thank you for being here and talking with me today. Abby, can you tell me about where
you’re from and where you currently live?
AH: I am currently living in Rockford, Michigan though I am from the Bay City area originally, but I
do have a residence up north as well, so I seem to be on the west side of the state quite a bit.
DD: How long have you been in Rockford?
AH: Since 1996, so 20-since 25 years.

DD: Abby, can you tell me a story about your experience with PFAS [per-and polyfluoroalkyl
substances] or with PFAS in your community?
AH: Yeah, so PFAS, for me, folded in a very personal way and we-you know working with-at
the time that PFAS started unfolding with Wolverine it was 2017. I was the assistant district
supervisor for the remediation redevelopment division in the Grand Rapids district office. The
supervisor at the time-the district supervisor at the time, was handling the-starting the project.
Had the-some of the initial meetings-was kind of handling the situation as the initial sampling
and discussions with Wolverine started happening. We were-you know the communityconcerned citizens came to us at the end of January. I was not in that meeting but then in
subsequent meetings as things started to unfold, the health department got a request for a well
permit right next to what was known as the house street dump area, and we didn’t have really
good record on the area, it wasn’t something that was on our radar, it wasn’t something we had
worked on in our division in a couple of decades. So, it wasn’t something that we were
intimately familiar with, but when the well request came in for the health department we thought,
well we’d better take a look at it. Things quickly escalated. The first 8 houses were sampled,
those were okay, but then when the Belmont Armory tested their well as part of a National PFAS
testing for all the armory sites across the state or across the country, they got a PFAS hit that
indicated we needed to go back and resample some more. So, what started as a few houses, I
think the initial sampling was 35 houses, quickly escalated to-and this was July of 2017-we had
staff out there trying to figure out, you know, which houses would be most at risk. We didn’t
have any monitoring well data, we didn’t have any ground water data. And so, it was a very, very
intense time and so once it really started getting kicked off, for myself, I was working as the
Assistant District Supervisor helping to support staff as we were going through this, but then the
1

�District Supervisor actually got a promotion and by September of that year, and was in Lansing,
and so I took over as the District Supervisor in the middle of this. So, by, you know, July we had
sampled 35 houses by September we were recommending sampling 300 houses. By December
we were up to 650 houses, and the [laugh] the real kicker was that in addition to the residential
drinking water sampling that-that staff were doing, Wolverine was actually doing it the staff
were actually out in the field with the Wolverine consultants trying to make sure we were talking
with residents, giving them enough information, it was a tremendous strain on-one of the most
intense periods of my entire career because we had so many people calling us and at one point
we didn’t understand that-we didn’t know where else Wolverine would have dumped. We had a
lot of concerns that there were other locations around the county that Wolverine would have
dumped. [coughs] And so this started trickling out into the-into the community, and so we were
getting hundreds of calls from the community about people finding barrels, finding what they
thought were leather scraps, finding all kinds of things, and so we had to basically stand up by
the-by the end of October we had to stand up our instinant command system and have our instant
managers, there were 8 of them that came over and helped us through-through the next six
months to really investigate all of these complaints, help us talk with residents, help us make sure
we were, you know, getting back to the 650 residents that were being sampled, and at that point
then by November we were-I had set up with-with the team and with Wolverine that we would
do daily meetings. So, every day we had a team of, you know, remember we had two staff
working on this in July, and by November we had basically 15 of us working on this daily.
DD: WowAH: It was-it was so intense. Seriously one of the most intense things that we did, and so, at one
point, we are sampling, you know, one of the Rockford Middle Schools, we’re sampling some of
the Elementary Schools to make sure the schools are okay. You know, the Rockford High School
was-was served by municipal water so that was good, but all the way around it had
neighborhoods that were served by the drinking water wells. And so, these constant meetings
and-and, you know it was very stressful for staff, but it was very stressful for the community.
And so, the first meeting that happened in September with the town hall was-was before I kind of
took over as the District Supervisor, but that first meeting was with our-our field staff were up
there to try to kind of explain what was going on and-and as well as Wolverine as well as the
Health Department. And it was, you know, like a four and a half hour meeting with, I don’t
know, probably-there were probably 600 people in the room. It was huge. The next meeting we
had in November we coordinated a little better and had the whole Freshman Center gymnasium
set up, plus we were televising it, so we had, we figure, over a thousand people in person, plus all
the media crews, plus the Sheriff, plus probably another 200 people live streaming from theirfrom their thing. So that was, you know again, that’s still on YouTube if you want to-[laugh] if
you want to go take a look at it. So that was November of-of 2017, and so by, you know, by that
point then we are fully in the midst. People are all on bottled water, people don’t understand
what’s going on. Wolverine is starting to install full house filters but we just don’t know that
we’ve gotten the full extent of that contamination going on, and through this whole thing I’ve got
you know friends of mine who live in the area, people that I go to church with, people that I go
to the gym with, people, you know, stopping me to talk about what’s going on. Are they at risk?
Should they be drinking their water? Should they be, you know, all these questions, and the fear
and anxiety was at a level that I had never really, really experienced before, so-so it was a pretty
2

�intense time. Things shifted by the time we got into 2018, we-the state had established a drinking
water-a groundwater cleanup criteria for the protection of drinking water. So, we had then a-a
regulatory limit for PFOA and PFOS, so, all through 2017, we were having Wolverine go out
and assess these homes, but we had no regulatory authority to-to establish an actual cleanup
limit. So, all we had at that point was a EPA health advisory limit, which they were working
with, but it wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t a regulatory inforcible criteria that we could enforce this
as a state. So, 2018, early on, we got that and we continued then to have Wolverine assess more
and more houses. December-December-beginning of December we got results. So, one particular
story, I’ll tell you about that I think is really-wow it was pretty unnerving, we had had
conversations all through this fall we were doing township meetings, we were doing
neighborhood meetings, we did a lot of after hour meetings trying to just get the information out
to people, but one of them was a neighborhood up in-in the north of Tenmont, in an area we
thought would not be impacted by the house street dump. And, you know, when looking at the
data, all of the groundwater from the house street dump went Southeast. This particular area was
to the Northeast so they should have been out of the range of any contamination. We said, we
don’t really think there’s anything in your neighborhood. You know, we talked to them, we said
it-it’s pretty unlikely, but they-everybody at that point was -there was a lot of people trying to get
their own testing done because they didn’t know what they were finding, so we had people not
only sending us complaints about barrels and leather scraps, but also sending us their private
testing data, and one of those-one of those houses that was close to this particular neighborhood
was-we had been talking to the township or to the Neighborhood Association President for a
while and one of them came back as being a-like a thousand parts per trillion of drinking water.
So, I got Wolverine to-to agree to do the whole neighborhood. They gave them bottled water,
they agreed to do all the testing in the neighborhood. [cough] Three weeks later, we get the
results and it’s a Saturday. I’m seeing the results come in. They-usually, because it was a
laboratory that worked on the West Coast, the results would all come in on a Friday night, late,
like 10 o’clock. So, Saturday morning I’m sitting there looking at these results going oh my god,
there is house after house after house in this neighborhood, in this Wellington rich neighborhood,
that was at eight thousand, 20 thousand, 10 thousand, I mean like, the whole neighborhood was
so severely impacted it was just like oh my god. And again, these are-these are people I know,
and one of the families that I was attending church with, you know, she’s pregnant, she’s got
four little kids. You know, they’ve raised all-all the kids drinking this water, and it was just-it
was heartbreaking. So, for me I think that was one of those pivotal moments where we just go,
wow I can’t believe this, because it was not-it was not something that we would have ever been
able to identify except through his very extraordinary set of circumstances that brought us to this
point-you know in a normal investigation you stick with the area, you know the contamination,
you define it. And, we had the house streets contamination somewhat defined, but this was an
entirely new area, and it was something that, you know, Wolverine said that it didn’t have any
records for. They said they never dumped there. We think that somebody dumped a whole-whole
barrel of scotchgard, whether it was something that somebody took home and just dumped in
their backyard or what happened, it was such a-a high strength source that there’s just no other
way it could have been done. And, unfortunately, where this was dumped at, was at a
topographic high, and it was part of a-a-because the Rogue River goes around the whole area, it
was not only at a topographic high, but it was at like a groundwater divide, and so groundwater
went in five directions. We ended up, from that one source area, having a very strong plume that
went off to the Northwest, some fingers of plumes that went off to the Northeast, another plume
3

�that went to the Southeast, all following the Rogue River but from different locations. And-and
we were guessing at this, completely guessing at this. Had a Geologist working on staff that did a
fabulous job and trying to figure it all out but hours after hours, I mean, the-the staff, you know,
we had literally the Incident Managers work with us from like November to March, but even
after that it was full time for myself, the project manager, the Geologist, another person on staff,
and then all the other resource staff that we needed to keep going for two or three years. And so,
you know, in the end we were able to get some agreement with Wolverine to actually get an
incentive degree written, get the almost 70 million dollars to get municipal water hook-up for a
thousand homes, which we’re very proud of. Plus then they’re going to go back and they have to
access all of these different locations where the groundwater is benting to surface water, because
we know that there is, you know, the groundwater continues to be a source for PFAS, and it is
going to continue to impact the Rogue River for the long term, so that’s something that is moreone of their ongoing obligations. So I’m gonna stop there and see what your next question is.
[laugh]
DD: [laugh] Well I’m just struck by how much PFAS is bringing the personal and the
professional together for you. I’m wondering if this is typical for you in the work that you do, or
if this is kind of a unique or maybe a more intense situation?
AH: Very, very intense, very unique. I mean, we’re always striving to make sure residents know
what we’re doing, and that we talk with residents about their concerns, but this was-you know,
this was a project that was one of those lifetime events. You-we hopefully will never have
another project quite like this. And when I, you know, now I’ve gone from a District Supervisor
in Grand Rapids for the last couple years, and I’m now-have the privilege of being the-the
Executive Director for the Michigan PFAS Action Response Team, so I’ve actually stepped up
to the state level. And when I look at the concentrations that we’re finding around the rest of the
state. When I look at the magnitude of what is at other sites, this is still the worst. This is by far
the first-the worst of the contamination, the worst of the impacts to residents, the-the-just the
amount of contam-the high strength of the contamination as well as the-the distribution of how
far that it has gone. It’s probably got a full 23, 24 miles-square miles of contamination of
groundwater, surface water. Soils, of course, not so much but definitely have an ongoing source.
So, this is one that I think will, you know, I think somebody will-it’ll somehow end up in a story
in some way, so it’ll be your story but the-but it’s really a very unique situation. We just don’t
have that-we will have other sites that will, yes, we’ll have to do town meetings, and yes, we’ll
meet people, and we’ll try to get them clean water. You may find one or two houses, you may
find a couple of houses, but you’re not going to find this. So, we’ve got other sites where we’ve
sampled, you know, a couple hundred homes, but we’ve not found concentrations like this. And
as you know from talking with people who have been impacted, you know, we had one house
that topped over a hundred thousand parts per trillion drinking water well. That’s probably the
highest one in the country I would-I would guess.
DD: Just sounds overwhelming. [laughs]
AH: It was overwhelming. It was overwhelming. Our team did a great job, but I can’t, you know,
as with everything we had a physical breaking point where it was just-it was-you just sat there
and cried. Because, you know, I had people in my office talk to us one-on-one and it’s, you
4

�know, you’re sitting there after hours talking with these people, and they’re just crying their
hearts out. So, it was not just a job at that point, it was really everything we could do to try to
make it-and then you’re balancing it with the constant, constant media requests. The trying to
balance the-the narrative that’s coming out of the media, and the narrative that’s coming out of
Wolverine, and the narrative that we’re trying to promote, that, you know, we’re trying to do the
best job we can. It was overwhelming, and there’s no doubt about it, so, that job was much
harder than this job that I’ve got now. [laughs] Which seems weird, but it really was.
DD: [laughs] Can-would you say more about the work that you did with communicating with the
community. I mean I know you said that the whole situation was more intense, but it seems like,
especially like the community engagement communication part was also kind of a really key part
of your work and just, maybe unique to this situation.
AH: For sure and I think this-this really, you know, started paving the way for how we do
community engagement now for MPART overall. As things started to unfold, you know the firstthe first townhall was in September of 2017. It was-it was an eye opener for us. We figured
people would be a little upset, we figured that yes, you’d get people to come but the visceral
anger and a lot of it was pointed at Plainfield township. Which we didn’t expect, we didn’t
understand that there was already this residual tension between the residents and township which
is something that we had not even expected or understood.
And-and then, you know, at that point they-they didn’t really understand the whole wolverine
thing so much, so, you know, they didn’t take their anger out on them. But that was a real eye
opener for us and so at that point we started getting [coughs] requests from some of the
townships, Algoma township specifically, that they wanted to have some neighborhood
meetings. And I said, you know I think that's a good idea.
So, we started meeting with some small, you know, small subdivisions basically. We had
probably, I want to say in between 2017, 2018, we probably did 20, 25 neighborhood meetings in
addition to the September town hall, the November town hall. We had a, I want to say there was
another one in there as well as all the media stuff. So we were trying to kind of attack it at all of
the different levels, not only to try to get the word out to the media, who's kind of controlling the
narrative, but try to reach to the Township, make sure that they were supported because they
were just as overwhelmed as we were trying to answer resident calls and questions and then
getting in there and-and really talking to people one on one, I think, is where we were able to
turn that narrative around.
Me, you know this-I think, personally, despite all of the contamination, despite all of the-the
anxiety, there’s some-one of the things I think that became very evident was that there is a very
much that seven stages of grief that goes with finding out that, you know, if it's a death in the
family or some major trauma or some major shock, that's what these people were going through
was you had the whole-they were very angry, then they were very sad, then they were very
resigned and then-. And it probably took a full-it probably took a full 18 months for some of
these people to work through those [clearing throat] those stages. And it was very obvious that it
was easy to blame, you know, Eagle. It was easy to blame Wolverine at the time. [clearing
throat] And obviously, you know, the contamination did come from them. So that was justified.
5

�But they didn't get the response that they wanted from Wolverine. They didn't get any kind of
personal connection. [clearing throat] They didn't get a way to talk to them because they were so
insulated with lawyers that they-they had no connection.
So, we provided that ability for them to, you know, ask us the questions, try to give some sort of
feedback to help them feel justified or- in what they were doing. You know, I think over the-the
timeframe from like September to November, December, I think we ended up with, like, 600
calls that went to our environmental Assistance Center. When they couldn't get one of us, they
would call our 800 number.
And so, you know, it was crazy trying to deal with it. But I think the best way you deal with it is
on that personal contact, that one on one contact where you're really sitting down and talking to
people. And we did. We went into people's homes. We had-we went into if any of the
neighborhood Association invited us, we went in and talk to them. We did a ton of night
meetings and that really is what changed the attitude and changed this. And so, despite this being
the worst of what I see in the state, I think it's the best example of a good response, a great
response from not only Eagle, but all of our partners as we work through this. You know, we
worked daily at these daily meetings with Eagle or DEQ at that point was not only all of our
staff, but we had local health Department, Kent county health Department there every day. We
had Plainfield Township there just about every day. We had the state health Department,
Department of Health and Human Services was there with us every day. And so, you know we
had 20 people. Plus, we had Wolverine there every day. Plus, we had their consultant there every
day. We soon hired our own consultant to-to help take samples.
And by December-December, January of 2018 is when EPA showed up and they started meeting
with us every day. And so, these team meetings were big, but it was the only way to keep the
wheels on the bus. And it was the only way to keep the coordination and the communication
going. And so, I think because we forced that model and we forced everybody to come together
every day, it really turned out to be hugely successful in the way it was implemented. Not to say
there weren't bumps. There was always bumps. But considering how long some of the other
litigations can go on, how little the-the, you know, actual residents can get out of these things, I
think we did pretty well in trying to negotiate a response for, you know, municipal water hook up
for 1000 homes, plus some sort of a capping for House Street, as well as a investigation for all of
the groundwater getting into surface water and those kinds of natural resource damage stuff so- I
think we'll leave-I’ll leave that one there then.
DD: Okay. What concerns do you have about PFAS contamination moving forward at this
point?
AH: You know, that's a great question. I worry about what we don't know. I worry about what
we're not looking for that five years, ten years down the road. We wish we would have known
when we're doing our investigations now. I worry about the other types of PFAS light chemicals
that are out there in our world that we aren't paying enough attention to. But yet they're
pervasive-they’re, you know, PFAS is unique in that it has- [clearing throat] it's not only a
persistent biocumulative toxin, it’s-we're finding it everywhere. We're finding it in our soils and
6

�our groundwater, in our air, in our-in our bodies. And without a full worldwide response to this
and the fact that we are already, you know, consuming so much of this, we expect these-we
expect the luxury of our first world country, which includes the use of a ton of PPAS chemicals.
How do we turn that expectation around to-to be able to eliminate some of this stuff? And I think
that's going to take a long time. And I fear that-[laughs] that the long-term ramifications of what
we've allowed to happen in the last 60 years will take, you know, the next 180 years to rectify,
because that's-that’s really the big piece. We started using this stuff in the 50s, and it's now 2021,
and we're just starting to get our hands around it, and we still don't have federal standards, and
we still don't have a national response to this. So those are the kinds of things that-that I worry
about.
And unfortunately, so far, PFAS has not become-it's a political thing, but it's still getting
bipartisan support, which was one thing that, when we started off, when MPART was first
established in the fall- in November of 2017, really indirect response to what was happening at
Wolverine. Governor Snyder at the time saw what was happening at Wolverine, saw us go from
50 houses to 200 houses to 600 houses and said, okay, we can't have that happening again, set
this up. And he kind of threw this MPART structure at us, which, you know, we didn't even, we
didn’t realize was coming at the time, it’s all being done at the governor’s level. But it is really
what has shaped us.
And so, one of the things that we were pretty careful about doing when we were going out and
doing neighborhood meetings, when we were going out and doing town halls, was we included
all of the legislators because, you know, Senator McGregor at the time, Peter McGregor, was,
again, very involved because this was his neighborhood. These were his people. These were his
neighbors as well. As well as Kevin Green, who is Algoma supervisor again, very-very involved.
And so, that kind of-that kind of legislative personal stories was taken back to the legislature and
was really the reason that we were able to get some of the first pots of dedicated PFAS money
for response.
And so that next year, then in 2018, the legislature actually gave the state, you know, 25 million
to handle some of the PFAS response. We were able to go out and do statewide drinking water
sampling for all the municipal systems, which is huge. Nobody ese-I don't think anyone else in
that some of the other States are just starting to do that. But we were the only one, and I think we
still are the only one that has consistently gone through and done all of our municipal water
supplies. We've done all of our daycares. We've done all of our schools, we’ve done-you know
we're working on all the type twos and type three water supplies. And so that was huge step
forward in what Michigan-so we've taken the situation that started with Wolverine, started with
this one community. It's expanded now to making MPART really be at the forefront of what's
going on for PFAS across the whole country.
So now we're getting-we’re getting asked, how do you do this? How do you make this happen?
And for me, MPART is one of those things that I think again is a once in a lifetime opportunity
because we have an opportunity to be collaborative with and cut off all of the normal chain of
command type of situations that you have with state government or you have with any
7

�government and really go to the experts in each of the departments. So, we have seven different
departments that are all participating in MPART. Eagle, Department of Health and Human
Services, DNR, our Department of Military Veterans Affair for all their bases. We have our fire
Marshal, we have our Department of Transportation who handles all the airports, and I'm
missing one. There's one more. [laughs]
Anyway, we bring all of that team together, and we meet with them weekly. We're all in the
same room together, at least weekly, talking about things because, you know, has become very
evident. As with our airports, PFAS is much used in all of our firefighting foam, which the
airports have to use for airplane crash and rescue. And so, they trained with it. So, we've got
large parts of the state with pretty high concentrations from what we call AAFES. But that
coordination has to happen with everybody because you got people out there taking surface
water samples, taking groundwater samples. DOT actually regulates the airport themselves.
You've got Eagle regulating all the media contamination.
But you’ve got-in some cases, you've got DNR who may have migratory birds that end up on the
airport. You know, they end up in their holding ponds. There's all these weird connections that
go in there. But the thing that's so successful about it is that collaboration, that communication,
that coordination happens in a structure that is set on top of-it’s like an umbrella that sits on top
of the state government and allows us to do and leverage really great work at an exponential rate
beyond what we would normally be able to do. If you have to work through a normal chain of
command, you can't have those conversations. So, it's almost like what we did in Wolverine with
actually getting into the neighborhood, talking to the people one on one, only flipped and
reversed.
So now we're getting into those agencies and talking one on one with, what do we need to do
with Peacocks? What do we need to do? What's our next steps? Where do we need to go as a
state, as a country, as a world?
And so, I'm very proud of the fact that we're going to continue those personal conversations and
keep those things going on. One of the things that we're doing this winter is having our second
PFA- Great Lakes PFAS conference. So last year, we were able to have about 1600 participants,
all online, but we had three different countries, 35 different States. We had presenter from
Germany, we had presenters from Australia, and it was a way to have that conversation about
what's going on with KBAs. What do we know? What don't we know?
So, this year, same thing. We're going to do another virtual conference in December, and my
hopes are that-that we can continue that conversation about where do we need to go with PFAS?
I think some of the big unknowns are still, what does it mean to have PFAS concentrations in
soil? If-if it's an okay concentration for soil, that it won't Leach to groundwater, is it an okay
concentration that it can't be taken up into plants, or that it can't be taken up into the silage for the
cows, and then it doesn't get into the milk.
So, there's a whole lot more that we don't know. I mean, I think we've just hit the tip of the
iceberg for what we do know about PFAS. And so, when I think about what's to come, we've still
got a long, long ways. But I think we've at least at the state level, I'm very proud of the work that
8

�we've been able to do. And the [laughs] you know how you-the old expression is, you never get
more than you can handle. God doesn't allow you to handle more than he-he thinks you can
handle. So what-what was allowed, what we went through for that whole experience with
Wolverine has really shaped not only our state responses, but also the way that hopefully we can
go forward, because I think the best thing that we can do for PFAS, the best thing we can do for
our state, and for our Great Lake States, especially is to make sure that we continue to have those
conversations around collaboration of data, collaboration of responses. What do we know, you
know, what's truly a fluorine free foam? We've got a lot more conversations that are going on
behind the scenes.
DD: Absolutely. Before we wrap up, is there anything else that you would like to add that we
haven't touched on today or anything you'd like to go back to and say more about?
AH: You know, I don't know that there's anything in particular that sticks out. I think that this
will this particular experience with Wolverine will always be one of those special experiences in
a lot of different ways. But I think-what, you know, for me, it's not just been a project. It's about
the people. I’m very much a people person. And so, when I think about getting to know the
people around the area who have been most impact, I think of Sandy Windstalt and I think of
Jenny Kearney, and we've gotten to know the people on our Community Advisory group or the
Wolverine [keg?] very well. A lot of those people then stepped up and are not just concerned
about Wolverine but their also now actually participating on our statewide citizens advisory
work group, that I’m now chairing as well. So, they’re the people that are great voices in the
room to be able to provide perspective.

9

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