128 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5a991fbbe60291b39bfaf0fa782ff1e2.pdf 11874a1847b18f93df4c030abc4237ba PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource GVSU Sexuality and Gender Flyers Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Rainbow Resource Center Women and Gender Studies Department Women's Commission Gayle R. Davis Center for Women and Gender Equity Description An account of the resource Digitized posters, flyers, event notices, and other materials relating to gender expression and sexuality at Grand Valley State University, with materials spanning from 1974 to 2019. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1974/2019 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digitized from collections at the Rainbow Resource Center (formerly the Milton E. Ford LGBT Resource Center), Women and Gender Studies Department, Women's Commission, and Gayle R. Davis Center for Women and Gender Equity. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Gender identity Gender expression Sexual orientation Women's studies Queer theory Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-09 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Language A language of the resource eng Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-09_SGF_WGS_2018_InvitedSpeaker_ChrisE.Vargas.pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-03-20 Title A name given to the resource Chris E. Vargas: Introducing the Museum of Trans Hirstory and Art Description An account of the resource Poster with sysnopsis of the keynote in Honor of Transgender Day of Visibility, including the date, time, and location. Subject The topic of the resource Sexual minorities Community centers Transgender people in art Gender identity in art Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived The Rainbow Resource Center Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Rainbow Resource Center https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d8e341fd76fc684ae79d6c82f1255ca7.mp3 dc83c9615afec788a9f7b34a206998e7 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/61a14a14b5538f6715a57794144dd3a6.pdf a923405b3cbf333d68ff8a5b06f2bb1e PDF Text Text Christ Community: A People Who Belong Text: I Corinthians 3: 21-23 Richard A. Rhem Christ Community Church Spring Lake, Michigan June 15, 1986 Transcription of the spoken sermon ... everything belongs to you ... yet you belong to Christ, and Christ to God. I Cor. 3:21-23 Last evening the Parlour was filled with people for a media event sponsored by the Reformed Church in America, and it was a very interesting evening very well done: a teleconference which linked up Chicago, New York and California. The General Synod of the Reformed Church in America is convening at the Crystal Cathedral in Garden Grove, California, and the program largely emanated from the Crystal Cathedral, but within seconds there was a switch to New York and to Chicago and back again. One of the marvels of the modern world is the technology that can bind people together across the nation, across the continent. Of course, this was small compared with the world-embracing media events that we have experienced in recent months. Nonetheless, it was quite significant and for me, at least, quite a thrill and I think we all enjoyed it. It's part of an attempt by the Reformed Church in America, of which we are a part, to discover its identity in this last part of the 20th century - to discover our identity in order not necessarily to know what we have been but, in the light of what we have been and what God is calling us to be, what posture we should assume as we look forward to Century Twenty-One. What is God's will for this church? What is God's will for the whole Church? What is God calling His people to be in this world of which we are a part? Perhaps you saw on the Church Page in the Tribune last evening an article about a book that has come out, a study of the world evangelization and world class cities, which documents what we really have known for a long time and that is that the Christian effort to witness to Jesus Christ is not keeping up with world growth and world population, and that the major cities of the world in the 21st century will be cities which will not only not be Christian in predominant culture, but may even be hostile to Christian faith. We simply live in Western Michigan in a kind of cocoon that does not face us with the reality of the world, a world which is not only not being conquered for Jesus Christ (I don't like to use that militaristic term and yet it's been one that has been a part of the Church vocabulary for a © Grand Valley State University   �Christ Community: A People Who Belong Richard A. Rhem Page 2   long time), we're not only not winning the world for Christ, we are not keeping up with population growth, and we will face down the line, and our children and our children's children increasingly will face, a Western culture which will not be able to take for granted the things that Western culture takes for granted today, even though Western culture today is not meaningfully and significantly rooted in the Gospel of Christ anymore. There can be no argument about the fact that what we became in Western civilization has arisen very largely out of the biblical vision of things. The Judeo-Christian tradition has shaped the values that we think perhaps are part and parcel of the American way of life, and yet, if we go back, if we study the history of ideas and the development of culture, then it becomes obvious that the things that we value so highly and take for granted are things that come out of a commitment to a biblical vision. And the day will not go on forever. I suppose that someday we will wake up with a shock at that reality. The RCA is simply one denomination that is saying, in the light of today's world, in the light of the imperative of the Gospel, what is God calling us to be? And so the event last night was one event in a series of events in a three-year period in which we are asking that question. It's a good question to ask. The whole Church should be asking that question in light of the world situation that we face. Recently, at the Commencement of New Brunswick Theological Seminary, I with several others delivered a paper on the idea of RCA identity, and in working over that paper, I discovered that the genius of Reformed Faith is that it refused to admit to being a new faith or another faith, and the intention of the Reformers of the 16th century was not to start another church, not to start a competing institution. That actually did happen and once that happens, the splintering continues, but the name Reformed was really used almost in the sense of a verb. It's always better to use a verb than a noun. A noun states a condition, a state of being. A verb bespeaks action. And what was in mind in the 16th century was not to begin a new church, but to rediscover the one, holy, apostolic catholic church, to find that biblical faith once for all delivered to the saints, and to reshape the institution in order that that Gospel might be released in all of its pristine clarity. And so, to be Reformed was not really to be a member of a competing church organization. It was the claim to be the Church re-formed according to the Word of God. Or to be a Church, The Church reforming. That was the insight. That was the genius of that branch of the faith that emanated out of Switzerland particularly, took root in Germany and in the Low Countries: to be the Christian Church, the catholic Church, reforming, always needing to be reforming. Because the Church takes shape in history, and the Church is peopled by people who tend to absolutize the relative and to make ultimate that which is only transitory and partial, to take a partial insight and baptize it as though it were the whole Truth. And so, in that 16th century when they were so sensitized to the corruptibility of all human institutions and the partiality of all human insights, the Reformers of the Reformed branch of the faith called themselves the Church Re-Formed according to the Word of God. © Grand Valley State University �Christ Community: A People Who Belong Richard A. Rhem Page 3   As I worked on that paper, I realized that John Calvin had a great passion for the unity of the Church. John Calvin was in favor of calling pastors together from the whole continent in order to discuss how that unity could come to expression. John Calvin was ready to have a church council called which had been the custom of the Church in the early centuries - to call a Council of the whole Church over which he was willing to have the Pope preside, on the condition that the Pope himself would abide by the decisions of the Council. And so, it was in the early expression of the Church re-formed according to the Word of God that there was only one church, that there could be only one church, and that there must be constant intentionality to discovering and expressing the unity of the Church of Jesus Christ. And at New Brunswick, in the paper that I shared, I used our experience to say that the local community of God's people could be a genuinely ecumenical community. I used that opportunity to say that in 15 years we have experienced the possibility of becoming a body of Christian people from a diversity of backgrounds and traditions, finding our unity in Jesus. It is hardly possible on the level of the large Church structure. Frankly, there are too many popes, cardinals, bishops, executive secretaries and all other kinds of officialdom with too much vested interest who piously say, "We are concerned about the Church and the Truth," but who are really concerned about their positions, so it is almost impossible on that giant Church level ever to affect unity. Structural unity will probably for a long time to come evade the grasp of the Church because people really don't want it. I mean, if I have position, power and prestige in the RCA, why should I want that merged into one great body in which I would become just, you know – I mean, if I'm a Chinook swimming in Lake Michigan, why do I want to become a perch in the ocean? Right? And down deep, that's what keeps the Church in its separate compartments. But when I came back here 15 years ago, I had had an experience of the possibility of genuine ecumenicity in a local fellowship. The four years that I was in the Netherlands, I worshiped sometimes in the Dutch Church, sometimes in the American Protestant Church of the Hague. In the APC, at that time, well in The Hague at that time, there were 4,000 Americans back in the late 60s. There were many of them who were oil people prospecting off in the North Sea. A lot of them came out of Oklahoma and Louisiana and Mississippi. They brought great, large, red Bibles to church, floppy Bibles. Southern Baptist folk. And then, there were also a few High Church Episcopalians, and there were all assorted kinds of Methodists and Baptists and Presbyterians. When you were an alien in a foreign land, you seek out a community of people with whom you can fellowship. Then theological distinctions are not quite so important. And I found that in that American Protestant Church in The Hague, there was a conglomeration of people of every stripe and every background who found something being together, united in Jesus Christ. And it was simply impossible for me to come back here and to squeeze back into the narrow © Grand Valley State University �Christ Community: A People Who Belong Richard A. Rhem Page 4   confines of a church with a specific confessional background and a specific ethnic caste. And as I was reflecting on this, I suppose that it was that experience that was the background for the experience of going out to the Institute of Church Growth and Leadership in California, which some of us attended in ' 71 where we recognized the possibilities for the church and came back and within a very short time we had changed the name of this church. It was May 3, 1971 when I preached on the text of this morning, suggesting it was reasonable and responsible to change the name of this church. And after 101 years of history, the First Reformed Church of Spring Lake became Christ Community Church. The vote on a rather warm, weekday evening at a special congregational meeting was 120 yes and 4 no. We also that night called Gordon VanHoeven. The vote was 117 yes to 7 no. He searched out those 7 and dealt with them. All kinds of people have written to me since that time to say, "How in the world did you ever effect the name change?" because people seem so glued to that which is traditional and familiar. And I have to say I don't know, but there was a momentum that was generated which we really believe was attributable to the Spirit of God, and that name signaled to us all a radical departure, a movement out of a narrow, confessional track, a movement out of a narrow ethnic background, and an intention of becoming a genuinely ecumenical community. And at this point, Christ Community has become as diverse as the American Protestant Church of the Hague. Now, how do you find your identity with all of that diversity? How do you find unity amid all of that pluralism? Well, it's very simple, because thank God that, in the inception of the Reformed Faith, the intention was not to begin another Church, but simply to be the one, holy, catholic Church, and simply to let it be reformed by the Spirit of God through the Word of God. Add, in so doing, the reformers were recognizing the essential unity of the Church. In our denominational structures we give witness to the unity of the Church, but our practice denies it. What we have done in this local community is simply not waited for the huge Church structures to move at their snail's pace, but we have become here genuinely Christ's Community; we have become the holy, catholic Church. Now, this movement toward unity reflects the biblical imperative and at its very inception the Church had to wrestle with the question of divisiveness. We read it this morning. Paul founded the Church at Corinth. He spent some time there, and within a little time, people came to him from the congregation and said, "We've got divisions. We've got jealousy and strife. We've got a party that meets out in the parking lot and they claim to be the people of Cephas or Peter. We've got people that meet in the Parlour. They claim to be people of Apollos. The First Apollos Christian Church. We've got people that even claim your name, Paul. And then we have that special group that meets around the altar. They say,' We're Christ's people.'" © Grand Valley State University �Christ Community: A People Who Belong Richard A. Rhem Page 5   Paul said, "Is Christ divided? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? " And then he goes on to deal with Jesus and the cross and so forth, and he comes back and says, "You know, I would really like you people to move on and to get into spiritual depth, but I can't even deal with the things that are really important. The world needs to hear about Jesus, and you're arguing about whether it's Paul or Apollos or Cephas. I'd like to feed you meat and all you are really ready for is milk!" And then he goes on at the end of that chapter to say, "Look - Apollos is yours, Peter is yours, I am yours. All things are yours. Everything belongs to you. The world. Life. Death. The past. The future - all is yours. But you are Christ's, and Christ is God's." And on the basis of that text, this congregation didn't dare vote to continue to be calling itself the First Reformed Church. How could we? How could we disobey the Word of God? How could the Church with all its self-righteous pronouncements and its pious affirmations continue in its division when there can only be one holy, catholic Church? Now, it was true already in Corinth. No wonder that we've got a Lutheran Church. No wonder we've got Calvinists rallying around the banner. No wonder we've got Wesleyans all over the place. And how can you be Roman Catholic? That's like being a particular universal. It's a contradiction in terms. You're either Roman or you're Catholic. You can't be Roman Catholic. We don't hear the Word of God, and we perpetuate our divisions and our selfrighteous assurance that we have a corner on the truth. Friends, there is no form of church government that is biblical as opposed to others. It doesn't really matter if we're Congregational or Presbyterian or Episcopal in our government. There are glimmerings of all of those in the Scripture, but there's not any scriptural justification for being separate churches because of the way we organize ourselves. There is no correct liturgy over against some other form of ritual. All of them arose in historical circumstances ministering to specific needs in concrete situations. There is no final confession of faith that has said it all. The Apostles Creed is probably the most unifying symbol in the Christian Faith, largely because it avoids theological definition and simply points to the historic life of Jesus. But even the Apostles Creed doesn't say it all. It, too, has a history, a context. The problem with the Church throughout all its life is its absolutizing of that which is relative, its claim for ultimacy for that which is transient and partial. Because there's something in us all that wants to say, "My church has got it. Every i dotted, every t crossed. We say it better than you do. We do it better than you do. And we're closer to the Scriptures and to the will of God and all of that." And it is simply not true. So, what we have tried to do on a local level is be simply Christ's, belonging to God. What we have tried to become here is a community of people who recognize that we are brothers and sisters of one another because Jesus Christ is our Elder © Grand Valley State University �Christ Community: A People Who Belong Richard A. Rhem Page 6   Brother, and God is our Father, and so we're members of the family together. What we've tried to bear witness to here is the one holy, catholic faith, that faith in Jesus Christ which has taken various historical forms and various institutional forms and had its faith come to expression this way at one time, and this way at another time, all of which is for us to learn from, to appreciate, to give thanks for, and all of us together, simply, to attempt to be Christ's who is God's. So, this community has only a relative grasp of the Truth, and we're open to continue to learn what God has to say to us. This church happens to be Presbyterian in government, but if they could ever get the whole thing together, I'd be willing to give that up if there were a way in which the whole Church could be united in a form of government that would get us together. We have certain ritual forms. If we could just stick with the biblical forms everything else is negotiable. We haven't got it all together. We're pilgrim people, of limited insight, of partial vision. We're just a pilgrim people on the way. We belong to Jesus, through whom we belong to God, and because we do, we belong to each other. Maybe the calling of the Reformed Church in America in the century before us is to give up its life, for the whole Church to become truly catholic again. Maybe the calling of Christ Community Church is to be a catalyst in the midst of the Reformed Church in America that the RCA may be to the larger Church what we have become. Maybe God is calling us in deep humility and deep commitment simply to model out that it is possible for people of diversity to became one in Jesus. I love ethnic festivals. I love mostly the food. I have roots. You have roots. Some of us share the same roots, some of us have other roots, but I love to enter into the roots of others. I was in New York a few weeks ago and we worked late on this theological journal and we went out to eat and then someone said, "There is an Irish tavern where they sing Irish music," and so we all went. In the back room, filled with people, all these Irishmen. I didn't say I was Dutch; I just sort of slipped into a booth. They bring their piccolos and their flutes and their drums and their fiddles, and they sing and they make music and drink beer, and sing and make music and drink more beer. The Irish are marvelous people. Their country's blowing up, and they sing. I love shish kabobs from the Greeks, and Hungarian goulash, and the beer halls of Munich. I love the English and I love my old wooden shoes. The Church of Jesus Christ doesn't have to be some bland, lowest common denominator. It can have all of the richness of a diverse community of people who say with many tongues and many tunes, through many expressions, "Jesus Christ is Lord." And out of all of the richness of that diversity which we can celebrate together, we can recognize that all of that diversity is relative to the only thing that matters – that we are Christ's and Christ is God's. Thank God that we belong. Maybe we can become that catalyst because our most famous, most meaningful confessional statement has no confessional or ethnic bias. It begins with this question, "What is your only comfort in life and in © Grand Valley State University �Christ Community: A People Who Belong Richard A. Rhem Page 7   death?" And the answer is, "That I, body and soul, in life and in death, am not my own, but belong to my faithful Saviour, Jesus Christ." Why, if you can say that, you are my brother, you are my sister. We're one in Jesus Christ. So, what else matters? So, what's the big deal? So, why don't we get smart and love each other in Jesus' name, to the glory of God? Let us pray. Thank you, Father, for forming us into Your family. Enable us to live in love, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Amen. © Grand Valley State University � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Pentecost IV Scripture Text I Corinthians 3:21-23 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-19860615 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1986-06-15 Title A name given to the resource Christ Community: A People Who Belong Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on June 15, 1986 entitled "Christ Community: A People Who Belong", on the occasion of Pentecost IV, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: I Corinthians 3:21-23. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives Community of Faith Diversity Ecumenical Pluralism Reformed Church https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4607d7fafe2768c54b882592bb9bf1ff.mp3 932a58c28b746a093572575e5b23b743 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Ordination Sunday Pentecost VI Scripture Text Jeremiah 45:5, I Cor 3: 21-23 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-19890625 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1989-06-25 Title A name given to the resource Christ Community: Carte Blanche to the Honor of Christ Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on June 25, 1989 entitled "Christ Community: Carte Blanche to the Honor of Christ", on the occasion of Ordination Sunday, Pentecost VI, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: Jeremiah 45:5, I Cor 3: 21-23. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/01d14694ff786c699b2c046cb44ab322.mp4 b46dfaa53d1a67f4202d1d4d2f5b7526 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/baf1f1f80b5d52425024ae74deaad8cf.pdf b47c911c1a9375155342192d8cec3274 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Hoyt Christensen World War II 42 minutes 14 seconds (00:00:10) Early Life -Born on May 14, 1926 just south of Greenville, Michigan in Montcalm County -Father was a farmer -Mother worked in a silk mill in Belding, Michigan -Father continued to farm during the Great Depression -Mother quit her job to raise the children -Father grew corn, wheat, hay, and oats as his crops -Finished the seventh grade -After completing the seventh grade got a job working on a nearby farm -Went to work at a dairy farm and managed it when he was fifteen years old (00:02:21) Start of the War -Had the radio on when he and the rest of the family heard the news about Pearl Harbor -The start of the war didn’t affect the community immediately -Knew of some neighbors that enlisted in the military shortly after the war began -Hadn’t followed the war in Europe prior to the bombing of Pearl Harbor -Thought that the war would be over before he would be old enough to have to fight in it (00:03:19) Getting Drafted and Basic Training -Went to the draft board in May 1944 just days before his eighteenth birthday -Reported to Detroit for his Army physical in August 1944 -Started basic training in November 1944 -Reported to Camp Joseph T. Robinson, Arkansas for basic training -Got there by way of troop train -Very slow train ride -Would stop in towns to get food -Camp was located close to Little Rock, Arkansas -Basic training was relatively tough -Training lasted about six weeks -He did better in basic training than some of the men that came from cities did -He had more experience with grueling physical labor due to working on a farm -Discipline and following orders were the main emphasis during basic training -Didn’t have a hard time adjusting to that -Training also consisted of physical training and firearms training -Some of the older men didn’t handle physical training well -Didn’t do well with marksmanship training -Didn’t want to do well with rifle training so that he wouldn’t have to be an infantryman -Army still gave him the designation of being an expert marksman (00:07:28) Deployment to the Pacific Theatre -Sent to Fort Ord, California to wait for deployment -Only spent a week there at the most �-Left California on a troop ship on Friday April 13, 1945 -Voyage took thirty seven days -Travelled with a convoy onboard a Liberty Ship -Didn’t run into any storms during the voyage -A lot of men got seasick -He never got seasick, just lost his appetite for a few days (00:09:23) New Guinea -Landed at Maffin Bay, New Guinea and was sent to the replacement depot there -Got assigned to the 31st Infantry Division -From there went to the islands of Halmahera and Morotai -Encountered limited fighting on those islands -Followed the older more experienced soldiers -Physical conditions on the islands were not good -Had to use local water sources -Usually didn’t have water purification or anti-malaria tablets -Japanese resistance wasn’t too heavy on those islands -His unit’s goal was to mop up the remaining Japanese soldiers that were there (00:12:51) Mindanao, Philippines -After New Guinea they were sent to aid in the liberation of the Philippines -Made an amphibious landing at Davao on Mindanao -Didn’t encounter much resistance on the beach -Japanese had been pushed inland -Worked their way up the length of the Mindanao River searching for the Japanese -Experienced mountainous and swampy terrain -Doesn’t ever recall seeing snakes while on Mindanao -Theorizes that that may have been due to the fighting on the islands -Saw a lot of the native Filipinos while on Mindanao -Lived in bamboos huts -Lived off the land and whatever they could steal or scavenge from the U.S. troops -Employed the natives to be used to carry materials -Got stationed at the Del Monte Pineapple Plantation -Stayed there until the end of the war -While stationed there contracted malaria and dengue fever -Ran a high fever and had terrible joint pains -Basically had to wait for it to pass -Both diseases lasted about two weeks (00:18:15) Encounters with the Japanese Pt. 1 -Some of the Japanese were well defended in built up fortifications on Mindanao -Some of the Japanese were hidden and dug in in the swamp -Japanese snipers used the trees to their advantage and hid out in them -Encountered a few banzai attacks at night -Basically the Japanese would fix bayonets and charge the American position -Usually knew they were coming, but got surprised by one, one night -Used his helmet to cover and suppress the blast of a concussion grenade -Uninjured except for a sore butt from sitting on the helmet during detonation -Only ever took one Japanese prisoner on Mindanao during the course of encountering them �-Had to go up into the mountains when the war ended to tell the Japanese they lost -Only one Japanese soldier believed them and surrendered -The rest were abandoned or attempted to be burned out with flamethrowers -Never encountered a fully-fledged post-war Japanese insurgency (00:22:40) End of the War Pt. 1 -The 31st Infantry Division was sent home after the war ended -He was transferred to an ordinance unit -Made shop foreman on the automotive section of that unit on Mindanao -Had mechanical knowledge and was a sergeant which allowed him to have the position (00:23:47) Relationship with the Filipinos -Filipinos would take whatever they could carry -Didn’t steal from the shop though -Usually they would raid salvage areas for anything that might be of use to them (00:24:51) Downtime on the Philippines -Army supplied them with movies to watch while on Mindanao -Doesn’t ever recall the USO coming to entertain them -Soldiers would play cards and play baseball games -Beer was made available to them by the Army -Discipline was not an issue during the war -After the war soldiers would go into nearby towns and get drunk -Usually led to disciplinary issues that the Army had to resolve (00:26:46) Background of Other Soldiers -Served with men from a variety of different backgrounds in K Company -Large spread of ages (18-50 years old), regions, educational backgrounds -The 31st Infantry Division was a combination of Florida, Georgia, and Alabama National Guard -Led to him serving alongside a lot of rural southern men (00:27:39) Leyte, Philippines -After the war ended, in 1946 he was attached to an Army Engineers outfit on Leyte -Mission was to build roads and infrastructure for the Filipinos -Drove a fuel truck -Provided fuel for the machines that were being used for construction -More Americans were on Leyte than on Mindanao -American soldiers got into trouble with Filipino women pretty frequently -Stayed with the engineering unit for about two months (00:29:48) End of the War Pt. 2 -He left the Philippines on October 17, 1946 -Most Americans had already been withdrawn from the Philippines -There still was a Japanese presence on Leyte -A fair amount of survivors had surrendered to American forces -Japanese were kept in POW camps, but mostly allowed to keep to themselves -Once defeated the Japanese were civil, honest, and friendly to Americans -He trusted the Japanese POWs more than the local Filipinos (00:32:54) Encounters with the Japanese Pt. 2 -At a place called Coogan’s Woods K Company lost about forty percent of their troops -Happened during the surprise banzai attack -The other losses they incurred were from random, sporadic encounters �-Most of the combat encounters happened while they were on patrol in the field -Towards the end of the war the Japanese soldiers he ran into were either very old or very young (00:34:33) Coming Home -Got told one day to pack his bags and report to the airfield -Told that a plane was waiting to take him to Manila -Waited three days and no plane came for him -Returned to base and was told there was a ship waiting in Manila to take him home -Given the option to wait for a plane or take the ship -Decided to take the ship so he wouldn’t have to wait for a plane -Ultimately regretted that decision -Voyage home took seventeen days -En route they ran into a typhoon -Had to stay below decks for about three days -Landed in San Francisco and spent a night there -Took a troop train back to Chicago -Given ten days of leave -Reported back to Fort Sheridan and was discharged from the Army there (00:38:30) Life after the War -Got a job driving trucks -Couldn’t handle driving the long distances to Texas and Florida -Put in an application at the State Hospital -Got a job there and worked there for twenty eight years -Eventually got placed in charge of a ward in the Department of Mental Health -Was able to work his way up and eventually got to a position of authority (00:40:21) Reflections on Service -Had trouble with alcohol when he first got out of the Army -If he had to do it again he would still do it -Glad to be part of a family legacy of veterans -Believes that his military experience did prepare him for the rest of his adult life -No specifics but is sure that it played a part in teaching him how to function as an adult � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ChristensenH1599V Title A name given to the resource Christensen, Hoyt (Interview outline and video), 2014 Description An account of the resource Hoyt Christensen was born in 1926 in Greenville, Michigan. Prior to his service he left school after the seventh grade and worked on a farm and later at the age of fifteen managed a dairy farm until he was drafted at the age of eighteen in the summer of 1944. In November 1944 he attended basic training at Camp Joseph T. Robinson, Arkansas. On April 13, 1945 he was sent to New Guinea and was assigned to the 31st Infantry Division. He aided with clearing out the remaining Japanese forces on the islands of Halmahera and Morotai. After that operation his unit was sent to aid in the liberation of the Philippines. His unit landed at Davao on the island of Mindanao where they encountered fierce Japanese resistance. He was stationed on Mindanao until the end of the war and afterwards he was reassigned to an ordinance unit and then on to the island of Leyte where he joined an engineering unit where he drove a fuel truck. On October 17, 1946 he was sent home and was discharged from the Army at Fort Sheridan, Illinois. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Christensen, Hoyt Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-06-10 Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9624108968526b25d03d04bb485173d9.mp4 7c47b775020bd9adad34e675ecd684f7 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/29c161ef2361c50654dda1acecebcd86.pdf 7372a4d5d40f719686f2dc362656ae4b PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Iraq Sherman Christensen (1:21:52) Background information (00:14)             Born in Covington, Kentucky, on February 24, 1988. (00:15) Sherman was adopted. At age six he moved to Utah where he and his family stayed for 10 years. Finally they moved to Petoskey, Michigan. (00:20) His father worked teaching college level courses. (1:00) He attended high school in Petoskey he graduated in 2011. (1:09) On 9/11 he remembers being in the car and having the radio cut with a breaking news announcement. (1:55) He wanted to see what was happening. But his house did not have a television. (2:30) Sherman does not recall the invasion of Iraq as clearly as he does 9/11. (4:03) He was a big fan of history growing up and read many books about iconic early Americans. This inspired him to go into the military. (4:56) Sherman began talking to a Marine recruiter when he was a sophomore in high school. He originally wanted to be a pilot in the Air Force but was unable to because of his eyesight. (5:56) His parents were unsupportive of his choice to go into the military as they were hoping he would serve on a mission for his church. (7:24) His parents were generally unsupportive of his choice throughout the entirety of his military career. (8:28) Sherman signed up for the Marine Corp. reserve in February of 2006. He started training in the summer of that year. (9:21) Training (9:36)           Sherman was first placed in a program to ready the men for basic training. (9:38) Sherman was in this program for six months before being sent to boot camp. (10:22) He was then sent to California for his basic training. Sherman’s training was completed in a three months long stint with basic and advanced training included. (11:20) When he arrived in California, they had to wait at the airport for buses to pick the men up. (12:31) Once the men arrived in the base, the drill sergeants immediately began yelling at the trainees and placing them in platoons. (14:05) The Reserve tried to get the men ready for boot camp but it was inadequate.(15:09) The first week of boot camp involves a lot of paper work, medical checkups, and ends at a basic test. (16:21) When tested for his aptitude he qualified for many specialized jobs, but he wanted to be in the infantry. (18:15) By the end of boot camp men were able to understand how things work in the military but Sherman never entirely was used to it. (19:22) �     Sherman trained only along men. There were some men who were defiantly older as the common recruit which was just out of high school. These older men in their late 20s seemed psychologically stronger than the common recruit. (20:24) For most of the recruits, it seemed common for them to have a history of military service. (22:40) Sherman was able to adapt to boot camp and the military fairly well. (23:40) If a soldier was washed out, they will with be completely discharged or have to start training over again. (25:42) First phase of training is basic learning of physical skills like marching and emphasis on discipline. The second phases is when weapons training and long hikes occur. The third phases consisted of guard duties and the more complex workings of the military. (28:20) Advanced training (30:30)       After boot camp in January of 2007, Sherman was given 10 days on leave. (30:30) Sherman’s infantry training took place at Camp Pendleton and lasted two months. Here is where he got his basic MOS. (30:45) In the first week the men will cross train on various weapons. (31:33) Sherman served as a mortar man. This was still a simple weapon and worked much like it did in the Vietnam era. (33:46) It was odd being in Infantry training because the men were technically marines but also still in school. (35:21) There was a physical element of training that was used in order to teach the trainees particular lessons. They were not deliberately beat up. (37:29) Arrival and in Country Training (38:55)        Sherman was assigned to Bravo Company 124 and was attached to Weapons Company. (38:38) In August of 2007 Sherman was told his unit was headed overseas. They left for Iraq in September of 2007. (40:54) Before being sent into combat, Sherman’s unit had to go through a series of training exercises judged by another unit to see if they were ready for combat. (44:38) Sherman was given basic language for Iraq service. (46:10) When being sent to Ira the unit was flown to Germany then to Kuwait. (49:20) The only thing the men were issued where their personal weapons such as rifles but no ammunition. When they were issued ammunition they were issued one magazine. (49:56) The heavy weapons such as mortar systems, .50 cal machine guns and grenade launchers were exchanged between units. (53:20) In-Country Training (54:30)    For the first several weeks in country the replacement unit is taken out by another to be shown how to carry out patrols and intended tasks. (54:40) The men often encountered small villages while traveling in country. Though the areas were not dangerous, IEDs were very prevalent. (55:46) The Iraqi army and police were frequently in contact with American soldiers. (57:20) �    The 81mm mortar, the weapon that Sherman worked with, was not allowed to be used in country due to the amount of damage it was capable of causing. (59:31) Sherman was assigned on his first time out with an experienced unit he was made the driver of a humvee during a night assignment without any night vision equipment. (1:02:24) M-raps, armored trucks, were used but Sherman never had to drive one. (1:04:35) The purpose of a night mission was to established what the streets looked like at night and how they acted when they ran into U.S. solders. (1:05:17) Service in Iraq (1:06:00)       Most assignments were simply to patrol areas and check for IEDs and weapons caches. (1:06:03) One of the hardest parts about the war was that it was not uncommon to help someone out who would soon shoot at American soldiers or had been shooting at them. (1:07:00) Money was able to get a lot done in Iraq. Paying for information was easy. (1:07:57) Company commanders would occasionally come out to see how particular companies were running. (1:08:47) The unit did have a wanted al-Qaeda list. The men often captured these persons of interest. At times the unit joked that they were police men as much of their duties included policing and arrests. (1:09:27) Snipers did become a problem but not with Sherman’s company. (1:10:26) Life in Iraq (1:11:12)         Sherman was in Iraq for 11 months. (1:11:12) The Marines lived in wood “huts” with bunk beds and no air conditioning. (1:11:15) Lunch and dinner were provided. (1:12:01) Parts of Sherman’s unit worked at an Iraqi police station. (1:13:00) It was understood that marines, particularly those from the reserves, would not be overseas for more than seven months. (1:14:11) Sherman’s unit did have several casualties from IEDs. But for the most part his unit was very lucky and relatively untouched. (1:15:54) More often than not there was an internet station that was available and working for the soldiers. (1:16:45) TQ would have some forms of entertainment. Sherman’s base did not have any amenities. (1:16:52) Life after Iraq (1:17:21)     When the men returned they had accumulated a month of leave. When they returned back in country the men could either take the leave or the military would purchase this time off of them. (1:17:33) Sherman returned to the U.S. and Michigan in August of 2008. At this time he had three and a half years reaming on his service. To finish it he served one week a month and two weeks during the summer. (1:18:10)] He began his major in Psychology at Grand Valley State University. His goal is to go to Law School. (1:19:01) Sherman finds it easy to pick out veterans in his classes. (1:19:55) � He finds that the service had made him much more disciplined and a bit more critical of other individuals. (1:20:34) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Christensen, Sherman (Interview outline and video), 2012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Christensen, Sherman Description An account of the resource Sherman Christensen, born in Covington, Kentucky, in 1988, served in the U.S. Marines and Marine Reserve stating in February 2006 and served 11 months in Iraq in 2007-2008. He joined the Marines out of high school in February of 2006. He trained at San Diego and Camp Pendleton as a mortarman, and was assigned to Bravo Company 1st Battalion, 24th Marines. During his service in Iraq, Sherman mostly patrolled and looked for road side bombs and IEDs. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Marine Corps Iraq War, 2003-2011--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-09-27 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ChristensenS1443V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f52e6fc4a292242caa92d30affd87a86.mp3 3677c0ab11cdf98ac05277358b890e72 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Pentecost XX Series The Church On the Way to the Future Scripture Text Acts 17:23 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-19901021 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1990-10-21 Title A name given to the resource Christian Faith: A Place To Stand In a World of Religions Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on October 21, 1990 entitled "Christian Faith: A Place To Stand In a World of Religions", as part of the series "The Church On the Way to the Future", on the occasion of Pentecost XX, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: Acts 17:23. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b56bb743eeb61d9017935a4878af8e18.pdf f2bfaaa9858c2328042028b9e4c47f25 PDF Text Text   Christian Faith: An Introduction to the Study of the Faith By Hendrikus Berkhof (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans Publishing Co., revised edition, 1987) 1987 Book Review by Richard A. Rhem Minister of Preaching and Theological Inquiry Christ Community Church Spring Lake, Michigan Publication of Review Unknown With the appearance of this revised edition of Hendrikus Berkhof’s Christian Faith, we are given not only a serious and thorough articulation of the faith from a Reformed perspective in light of the contemporary world, but we also have a model of how the systematic theologian must continue to be in dialogue with the ongoing developments in the historical arena so that new questions that are raised may elicit new understanding of the faith and the faith may bring new understanding to the present horizon. First published in Dutch in 1973, the work has proved highly popular, with a fifth Dutch edition published in 1985. At that time a significant revision was made. The original English translation based on the fourth Dutch edition appeared in 1979 and is now replaced by the revised edition based on the fifth Dutch edition. In a “Preface to the Revised Edition,” Berkhof tells us how he came to write a systematic theology in the first place. In May of 1969, amid the student revolutions that were common throughout the Western world, Berkhof - always a sensitive listener -heard the cry for greater freedom, equality and brotherhood in society. His response - intuitive at the time - was to determine to write a systematic theology. In retrospect he realizes that his response arose out of his deeply held conviction that what was being demanded in the student revolts could be gained only by going back “to what is firm and unchangeable, to God who makes history with his covenant and wants to involve our history in his covenant.” Thus he wrote this introduction to the study of the faith “against the backdrop of secularization and polarization.” Berkhof’s treatment of the faith lives and breathes because it arises out of a masterly grasp of the biblical material, the history of the interpretation of the faith, and a passionate engagement with life. An encyclopedic knowledge of the subject matter is obvious; one is confident the most difficult questions have been engaged, questions raised by the explosion of knowledge in the modern world; various options are sympathetically offered demonstrating the genuine openness of the author to a variety of voices and then, simply and straightforwardly, the author’s own position is stated. © Grand Valley State University   �Hendrikus Berkhof, Christian Faith, Book Review by Richard A. Rhem Page 2   This is theology written for the serious inquirer. Aimed in the large print sections at a broad audience willing to think seriously about the faith, Berkhof adds small print sections for more detailed and technical treatment of the subjects under discussion with bibliographical references for further study. This is theology written for the person who would both understand the faith from a Reformed perspective but within a larger ecumenical context in light of modern knowledge and be able to interpret the faith in the contemporary situation. Berkhof digs deeply into the biblical tradition in order to transmit that tradition in new translation. He summarizes his motives in writing, ... as concern for a world which is losing its cohesive power, which is pluralistically and permissively falling apart, and which is losing its sense of meaning, purpose and direction. That is a serious diagnosis. Yet, Berkhof maintains, and those who know him well confirm, that he is no “prophet of doom.” If it is true that God watches over his world, the counterforces are also bound to be there. We see these forces in a widespread quest for the meaning of life. Precisely in our culture this is a question which consciously or unconsciously occupies the minds of many. This is hopeful theology; the author is unequivocally committed to the biblical faith, sensitively aware of his own context and the broader world scene and confident in the redemptive purposes of the God of the covenant. Sensitivity to contextuality marks this revision. Berkhof notes that, about the time the first Dutch edition appeared in 1973, “contextuality” came into vogue. Berkhof recognizes the importance of being aware of one’s own context, but insists each context has its own questions and every context is a proper place to do theology - not only, for example, a context characterized by poverty or oppression. He calls for “a mutual awareness of the limiting significance of our stances” and the necessity of going “beyond the boundaries this imposes upon us ... striving for greater universality and catholicity.” Berkhof welcomed the opportunity for major revision because “dogmatics does not stand still.” But, he maintains, That is not the same as “making progress.” But it does mean that new angles regularly present themselves beside the earlier ones, or even dislodge them. In his preface to the new edition, Berkhof indicates the areas of major revision which is very helpful in tracing his own ongoing understanding and interpretation of the faith and the moving context of our times. © Grand Valley State University �Hendrikus Berkhof, Christian Faith, Book Review by Richard A. Rhem Page 3   One new paragraph is added: “Revelation and Experience,” paragraph 10. Here he deals with the concern with the experience which precedes the revelational encounter and leads up to it. The last two decades have seen a return to concern with such experience after the sharp reaction against any such consideration in the wake of Karl Barth. In typically balanced fashion, Berkhof presents the subject under three perspectives: a. Revelation is directed to people in the world of their concrete experiences. b. This approach always both determines and delimits at the same time. c. Experience itself can never bridge the gap between the person and revelation. The contemporary Christological discussion is given lucid and concise treatment in the small print section on pages 291-297. Within the compass of these pages one is brought up to date on where the discussion has come with pages 294-297 rewritten for the revision. Berkhof suggests that the new nuances of the revision will further be sensed by reference to the subject index, to such subjects as Auschwitz, liberation theology, experience, feminist theology and Pneuma-Christology. For all the value of the work of revision, the great contribution of Christian Faith remains its contemporary statement of the meaning of the faith. For readers not yet familiar with Berkhof’s work, we must point to the remarkable discussion of the attributes of God under the headings “Holy Love,” “The Defenseless Superior Power,” and “The Changeable Faithfulness.” The headings themselves should be enough to demand examination and the examination will not disappoint. Another great strength of this work is its focus on the history of the covenant. The history of Israel is taken seriously and the Old Testament is allowed to speak for itself before it is understood from the perspective of Jesus Christ. In contrast to the all too typical dogmatic treatment where, as in the Apostles’ Creed, the exposition jumps from the Creator to Christ with a treatment of the fact of sin interspersed, giving the impression that Jesus drops out of heaven, Berkhof follows the redemptive drama historically. There are ... not only vertical incursions from eternity, but there is also a horizontal course of God with us through time. Therefore following his treatment of “Revelation” and “God,” Berkhof discussed “Creation,” “Israel,” “Jesus the Son,” and “The New Community.” The latter discussion of the Church is creative and innovative, challenging the static descriptions of the older dogmatics. In the paragraph on “The Church as Institute,” for example, Berkhof departs from the usual institutionalized means of © Grand Valley State University �Hendrikus Berkhof, Christian Faith, Book Review by Richard A. Rhem Page 4   transmitting the grace of God - the marks of the Church. He suggests rather nine elements: instruction, baptism, sermon, discussion, Lord’s Supper, diaconate, worship service, office and church order. His final paragraph on the Church moves the focus outward, the orientation to the world, as he discusses “The People of God as the Firstfruits.” The final three sections treat “The Renewal of Man,” “The Renewal of the World,” and “All Things New,” handling aspects of the faith that especially address the question of meaning which Berkhof senses as at the heart of the Western context. Christian Faith is theology at its best: biblically rooted, aware of the transmission of the tradition, written in dialogue with the ultimate concern of the present context. It is up to date but not trendy; it is sensitive to the spirit of the age, but transcending that spirit. It is written out of faith for faith. It is the best available textbook for students of theology. Preachers will find it “preaches” well and congregations who receive it via the sermon will be stimulated, challenged and inspired. © Grand Valley State University � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. References Hendrikus Berkhof, Christian Faith: An Introduction to the Study of the Faith, 1987 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RA-4-19870101 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1987-01-01 Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Title A name given to the resource Christian Faith: An Introduction to the Study of the Faith Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Perspectives: A Journal of Reformed Thought Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource eng Description An account of the resource Book Review created, delivered, or published by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on January 1, 1987 entitled "Christian Faith: An Introduction to the Study of the Faith", on the book Christian Faith: An Introduction to the Study of the Faith, written by Hendrikus Berkhof, it appeared in Pespectives, January, 1988, pp. 14-15. Tags: Meaning, Scriptures, Faith, Theology. Scripture references: Hendrikus Berkhof, Christian Faith: An Introduction to the Study of the Faith, 1987. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Faith Meaning Scriptures Theology https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/318c01ede2f4a18b9ae77a8b79d704b0.pdf d73a8fa228a201791076edb7ca7317e4 PDF Text Text Christian Hope: Life Now and Forever From the Eastertide series on the Apostles’ Creed: Credo Text: Romans 8:34, 35, 39; John 14:18-19 Richard A. Rhem Christ Community Church Spring Lake, Michigan Eastertide, May 15, 1994 Transcription of the spoken sermon "... Christ Jesus...at the right hand of God who indeed intercedes for us." Romans 8:34 "What will separate us from the love of Christ?" Romans 8:35 "[Nothing] will be able to separate us from the love of God." Romans 8:39 "I will not leave you orphaned; I am coming to you... because I live, you too shall live." John 14:18-19 Well, this is the last Sunday of Eastertide. Eastertide, beginning with the celebration of Easter itself and extending really to the fiftieth day, which is Pentecost, which is next Sunday. Our focus this morning is on the consequence of the resurrection and the development of a faith and the hope with which we live that, because he lives, we too shall live. We see Jesus’ resurrection as a model. We believe that this is not all there is, that the best is yet to be, on the basis of our faith that Jesus who died was raised by the power of God. So today at the conclusion of the Eastertide series, which has gone under the Latin word, Credo, the verb that takes its own subject and is translated "I believe,” we consider the final section of the Apostles’ Creed: "I believe the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting". I always find that one of the great times to affirm that line from the Apostles’ Creed is at the edge of an open grave. It gives me goose bumps when I stand at the cemetery with those loved and lost a while. Together we unite our voices in that strong affirmation which concludes with those words: " I believe in the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting." Before the yawning, grasping jaws of death, symbolized by that open grave, it is the right time for a Christian, and a Christian community to make the grand affirmation -"nevertheless." We bury our dead because our loved ones and we ourselves will die, really die. But to © Grand Valley State University   �Christian Hope: Life Now and Forever Richard A. Rhem Page 2   die in the wake of Easter is to be able to affirm over the grave, "I believe." "Credo, I believe." The Apostles’ Creed concludes there because when you have said that, you have said it all. That is the conviction with which we live. That is Christian hope, that we have life now and forever. What kind of word can we use? How can we describe this reality that is beyond our grasp, this final great mystery? We simply stammer and we say resurrection of the body, life everlasting, eternal life, life here and now and forever, that is the bottom line of our faith. It is the hope that inspires us, enabling us to live with some measure of equanimity and serenity and to die with some measure of peace. In the Apostles’ Creed that's where it concludes. But it concludes that way because of what we had confessed earlier in that middle section of the creed dealing with Jesus Christ, where we confessed that he was crucified, dead, buried, descended into hell or into the realm of the dead, and on the third day, rose again, ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the power of God, from whence he shall come to judge the living and the dead. We confessed that about Jesus Christ. And what we confess about our own destiny is posited on our conviction of the experience of Jesus. Now it may seem that the creed is almost trite in its statement when it says crucified, dead, buried. It's like hammer blows. It's like, you know, saying it over and over again. And I think in the Heidelberg Catechism, there is a question about this statement. It asks, "Why does it say that he was buried?" And the answer is that it might be demonstrated thereby that he was really dead. The fact is that they found it necessary to confess that Jesus died. There were those at the time the creed was formulated, and even before, who were denying that very fact. There were those who didn't believe that Jesus came into the full reality of our humanity, that Jesus was genuinely bone of our bone and flesh of our flesh, that somehow or another, at some moment, the spirit must have left, or the divine nature evacuated the body, or whatever. There were all kinds of theories and speculation. But in the final statement of the Christian creed, the most familiar affirmation of our creedal tradition, the Apostles’ Creed, that just gets hammer blows. Crucified, dead, buried, descended into the realm of the dead was the original significance of that phrase. And then on the third day he arose so that the resurrection of the dead is not somehow or another a soft peddling of death or it is not some kind of an accommodation of death. It is a transformation beyond death. The resurrection of Jesus Christ did not happen in our space and time world. And the creed was trying to say this life came to an end. This was really death. Jesus died. Jesus was buried. The body of Jesus was placed in a tomb. Period. © Grand Valley State University �Christian Hope: Life Now and Forever Richard A. Rhem Page 3   And Easter is a celebration. On the other side it is the affirmation of faith that that which had ended in a very human way, the cessation of life had been overcome by the power of God. To believe in the resurrection of Jesus is in no way to short circuit the reality of the death of Jesus. That, I think, was what was behind that creedal formulation that seems to bring the emphasis so strongly on the death of Jesus. In our experience we too believe we live with hope on the basis of our conviction about the destiny of Jesus Christ: that Jesus who really died is alive. Wasn't it about a year ago when I sent some of you out of here in fear and trembling because I said that Jesus' bones, that were interred didn't all come together like the bones in Ezekiel's vision, with the flesh and blood Jesus walking out of the tomb. I wrongly assumed that we understood that the resurrection of Jesus was not the resuscitation of a corpse. Remember that? I wrongly assumed that we commonly understood that. Let me go back to that once again. The flesh and blood of Jesus was as real as yours and mine, and that flesh and blood that died, was buried. And it was not that flesh and blood that was called forth by the power of God. The resurrection of Jesus was not like the raising of Lazarus. The raising of Lazarus, in John's story of Jesus, is the supreme miracle, the supreme sign. The raising of Lazarus is the sign that Jesus, present in the midst of that community, was the Lord and giver of life. But when Lazarus was called forth wrapped in his bandages, Lazarus had to die again. That was the resuscitation of a corpse. Not so Jesus. When Jesus was raised by the power of God, Jesus encountered people and they were sure he was alive. But as the apostle Paul said, writing the earliest on this of anyone, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Paul thought it was all going to end very soon and so he also wrote, "We shall not all die but we shall all be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye." When we talk about the resurrection of the body we are talking about a transformation of this physical reality that we know as body. When the creed said of us" I believe in the resurrection of the body" it was trying to say something about a reality. It's not a fantasy. It's not an illusion. The authentic person is called to life. Now how do you say that? Well, the body seems so important to the definition of our person, yet we know that we are more than the body. One of the beautiful old men of this congregation– many years ago I went to see him and asked, "Fred, how are you?" He said, "Well I'm fine, but this old house I'm living in isn't so good any more." We can make that distinction and yet in the Christian and the Hebrew tradition there was never a denigration of the body. The body was good. It was part of the creation of God. The God who created all things had looked and said it is "very good." So when the Christian community wanted to affirm the reality of that which lies beyond death, it said resurrection of the body. We know that the body we plant is not the body that will be that resurrection reality, whatever that is. © Grand Valley State University �Christian Hope: Life Now and Forever Richard A. Rhem Page 4   Paul says it will be a spiritual body. What in the world is that? Paul didn't know, and we don't know. But we believe it will be a reality that reflects the authentic personality that is now living. At the end it is not death, in darkness, in nothingness, but it is life and light in the presence of God. That's what the creed means to say – resurrection of the body and life everlasting or life in the world to come without end, however you want to say it. The bottom line of Christian hope is that what is now, will be transcended by what will follow, that there is more, that this is not all there is, and, what is more, it is the best that is yet to be. That is the Christian conviction on the basis of the experience of Jesus. Easter faith was the confirmation of the followers of Jesus that the end is not the grave. Dead, buried, to be sure, but then, then, resurrection, life eternal, the Mystery of God, whatever that is. We hadn't ought to try to be too clear in our definition of that. I went back to check on what I had mentioned to you on Easter. I looked at last Sunday's New York Times Book Review, the best seller list. Embraced By The Light was the title of the Easter message, the story of Betty Eadie and her near death experience. And I am not surprised to find that six weeks later Embraced By The Light is still number one on the nonfiction list. It would be number one if only this congregation was responsible for going out and buying that book. I see it popping up all over. Embraced By The Light is a good title, but for my taste Betty Eadie learns too much. She knows too much. She becomes too defining and too definite about these things. So be it. It doesn't matter. That mystery is full of light and life and that is the point. It is that existential need of us all, I believe, that cries out for some basis in which to place our feet and to set our hope. We long deep down to know that this is not all there is. Oh, I've read some sophisticated statements and philosophical treatises and some artful, creative treatments in novels and literature. There are those in the modern age who speak about this as an illusion. Hans Küng in his lectures, "Eternal Life," admits that there are those who say it is wishful thinking. And we have really no defense against that charge. That's why it is "Credo," resurrection, everlasting life, "I believe." It is an affirmation of faith. We are dealing with that which is beyond our ken and our knowledge. It is that which we cling to, that which we affirm, that in which we set our hope because of our conviction that Jesus who died and was buried was raised by the power of God, and that beyond that impenetrable veil, which becomes but a moment of transition and transformation, there is light and life in the presence of God. That deep existential need in the human heart is witnessed to by the fact that in our contemporary society these books are being bought up by the hundreds of thousands. The question is there. Medical technology has put it in the news, Jack Kevorkian and the whole euthanasia business, the possibilities presented by medical technology. But beyond that, deep down in the human heart there is that question. It faces me when I face that reality personally, or when I face it with one whom I love. Then all the cool, sophisticated argumentation evaporates in a moment. We are created for life and we need to know our labor is not in vain. © Grand Valley State University �Christian Hope: Life Now and Forever Richard A. Rhem Page 5   And we need to know our love is not finally empty in the end. The Christian community is a community that stands to say, I believe the resurrection of the body, the life everlasting. Two marvelous experiences have been in mind recently. Leon, if I had seen you ahead of time I would have warned you. Lee Stille's mother died the week after Easter. I was able to hold her hand, to see her smile, to give her the benediction, and to promise her the best was yet to be in the week following Easter. Unbeknownst to me it was within a day of her death, but that's not the point. The point is that when we finally got out to the cemetery, I thought that the cemetery crew had gotten it wrong. I thought we caught them with their equipment down. There was the front end loader with a scoop of sand. Across the street was that little putt putt machine that carries the top of the vault. There wasn't any of that nice green carpet, you know, that's supposed to be grass that masks the cold outlines of the grave. There was the cemetery assistant in his blue jeans, his work clothes, and it looked as though the funeral procession had come upon them before they were ready. But I proceeded with the committal service, only to find out that this was all planned. Three shovels were nearby. Lee, his sisters Sharon, and Donna took the shovels, bit into the sand in the front end loader, and began to throw it on the vault after the casket had been lowered and the vault sealed, all of that happening as we stood there. I can still see the vault being covered with sand. I can still hear the earth falling on the vault. And then the children were invited, the grandchildren were invited, the little great grandchildren, Zinni's beautiful old parents taking not the shovel but just their hands with the earthy handful of dirt and throwing it on the grave. As Christian people there is no need to cover the grave with some kind of masking, some green carpet that cuts away the cruel emptiness of the earth. There is no need to turn from that to mask it, to make it cosmetically acceptable, aesthetically pleasing. We can look into the grave. We can throw the dirt down there. It's over. It's death. It's painful. It's loss. Oh, it is so healing, so liberating to be able to stare death in the eye and not flinch because all of that has been overcome and transformed by the power of God as witnessed to in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. We can deal honestly, authentically with the reality of death and loss and pain in the sure and certain hope of the resurrection. Dying is transformed in the face of this kind of faith. And now I come to bear witness to my dear Menno Klouw, who died a couple weeks ago. Menno, who is so well loved in this community of faith, who cared with such tenderness, gentleness for this facility for so many years. On the night of his death I was privileged to be in his home. Menno had come home to die without tubes and wires, in his own home, surrounded by his own loved ones. Coming home to die, day by day, the end in sight. Friday night, his own dear grandchildren were gathered round. Dear God, how better can you die than with © Grand Valley State University �Christian Hope: Life Now and Forever Richard A. Rhem Page 6   your grandchildren there? The family gathered, death imminent. I took his hand. I began to speak to him. He turned his head. I said, "Menno, squeeze my hand if you hear me." And he squeezed my hand. I said, "Menno, it's all right. You're just fine. The Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you. The Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace." And I kissed him and I left so deeply moved that there is beauty even in the face of death, even in the midst of loss when it is surrounded by love, saturated with compassion and experienced in the sure and certain hope of the light that will dawn. Dear God. Thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. God knows I believe. © Grand Valley State University � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6f595abe4353170f8100778dd4529224.mp3 338d27c54b1e90b26a0c4eccf87aad33 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Eastertide VII Series Credo: A Series For Eastertide Scripture Text Romans 8: 34, 35, 39, John 14: 18-19 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-19940515 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1994-05-15 Title A name given to the resource Christian Hope: Life Now and Forever Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on May 15, 1994 entitled "Christian Hope: Life Now and Forever", as part of the series "Credo: A Series For Eastertide", on the occasion of Eastertide VII, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: Romans 8: 34, 35, 39, John 14: 18-19. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives Creeds Eastertide Hope Life Resurrection https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a69a5d94a46ffd04f2920a49b1e235c2.pdf 26c4e3c298a0ce8558ad2c2f1cb23c8d PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Christian Vannier Interviewers: Spencer and Tom Supervising Faculty: Liberal Arts Deparment Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/15/2011 Runtime: 00:56:24 Biography and Description Christian Vannier discusses the civil rights differences between western and eastern Michigan. In particular, he draws on his experiences at Wayne State University and Grand Valley State University. Transcript Spencer: Could you start out by giving us some basic information about yourself? For example your name, date and place of birth, family, education, etc. Professor Vannier: I was born August 16, 1985. I was actually born in San Jose, California because my parents were living out there at the time. My brother was born there too but then we moved back to Michigan and my father went to work in the auto industry. My father was born and raised and he started in Detroit then moved out to the suburbs with the wave of migration when everybody moved out to the suburbs. Born and raised in Southfield, my grandfather worked on the line for ford. My father eventually got a job there too. My father went to Michigan State, my mother went to Michigan State and so they met. So they are both educated and both got bachelor degrees. And afterwards they lived in Texas and California where I was born, eventually moved back and my father become a white collar worker and eventually rose in the ranks to become the head of international marketing with Ford. And he worked at that for a long time and in high school I barely saw him because he was always in Saudi Arabia or China or Columbia. You know all these different places where he was doing all this stuff. He would always bring me sweet stuff. He’s got piello head scars from Palestine from when he worked in Palestine. He always had awesome stories, which got me interested in anthropology. Like when working in Palestine he would talk about when you go over to Palestine the Palestinian border guards would be like “Hey Detroit! Detroit Pistons!” They want to know about basketball and stuff like that. And everybody would have fun and whatnot. Now going over to the Israel side, they would pull the trick where one guy would come up and ask for your passport and he would leave and another guy would come up and ask for your passport. “That guy just took it.” “No he didn’t.” Just to get you nervous and search your car if you speak out of turn just to give you a hard time. It was awful. But I would go over to the Palestinian side and everybody high fives you and off you go. It was great. But yeah, I got piello head scars, an old Yemini’s dagger Page 1 �made out of rhinoceros horn. But that’s what really got me into anthropology, is doing that kind of international stuff. Eventually my dad quit working for Ford and opened up his own company to do this stuff. Where he worked he was the head of the American branch of an English company. So he had to go to and from England all of the time and I would go with him at 18, 19 years old and hang out in London all day. It was fun. But eventually with the recession and everything collapses so it did to. It went the way of everything else. But he actually paid for my entire undergraduate education. He paid for my brother to go to Western, I went to Michigan, my youngest sister went to Bowling Green, and my other sister went to Purdue. It was never a question in our family; you were going to a university. You grow up under that assumption. That’s what you do. You don’t ever question that you’re going to a university. So we did, and like a lot of ways I told in class is like Miles violinists, we followed that pattern. And that is such a Detroit path. That is what Detroit gave America. Where the first persons in total poverty and works on the line, builds up an economic base. The second person gets educated because of that economic base and really builds an economic base. The third generation, you don’t have to worry about money so you can become an anthropologist. I have a geologist, anthropologist, businesswoman, and artist. That’s the four siblings. My brother is finishing up his PhD at Michigan State in Geology. That’s basically the story and I did my undergrad at Michigan. After that I just tooled around. I didn’t want to go right back to graduate school so I went to work for, like I said, an American branch of and English company. So I moved to London for six months then the German branch for six months where I lived in Cologne. Came back didn’t know what to do with myself so I moved, joined AmeriCore went out to Washington State and lasted about six months to doing that before coming all the way back to Ann Arbor where I eventually decided to go back to graduate school. I chose Wayne State a lot of it because it was local and a lot of it because they had somebody I wanted to work with. I wanted to work in the Caribbean. There was a professor at Wayne State that I wanted to go work with because he was an old Haitian man that did anthropology the old school way. You know, go out there on your own in some village hut. Hindsight maybe gave me the wrong idea because that’s not the way the field went these days but that’s what I did. Eventually I graduated, got a job in the honors college at Wayne State. Did that for four years then I came over here. Where I got my first visiting assistant professorship because the job market in higher academics sucks. All of the universities are getting cut. When they cut they do hiring freezes and they do all sorts of stuff so there’s just no jobs available. People keep graduating and it is just a flooded job market. So I’m pretty lucky to get this job and I am so lucky to get something in Grand Valley because I got family in Freemont. It’s about 45 or 50 minutes north of here. That’s where my mother is originally from so I got my grandmother and aunts and uncles up there so I’m really lucky to be on this side of the state. Because there was always a big fear in higher academics, it was always a big joke that you were going to end up at Arkansas agricultural and mineral college. Or moving to Miami of Ohio. It’s a nice place but there are cornfields for hours. It is in rural Ohio. It’s a big joke and that’s where you would end up or something like that. I knew a guy that took a job at the University of Alabama and he said it’s awesome until you step foot off campus and realize you’re in Alabama. He just lives on campus, that’s all. He barely leaves. He’s from New York City though so it’s a huge difference. So yeah that’s basically short life history. But really I think the experience that really made me was growing up in Detroit because Detroit is a very different place, very different place and it’s not like people think it is. Especially right now, it’s really happening in Detroit. We focus on the inner city of Detroit, which is super poor, now it’s changing. But it was super poor and all of the white flight came in. In the rankings of white flight I think were fifth. St. Louis had more white flight, Milwaukee had more white flight, and Buffalo had the most white flight. Were Detroit, were known for riots. We barely riot; we’ve had a couple. But the last one was Page 2 �in 1967. Why isn’t LA known for riots? They burned down their city like clockwork every about 25 years. And there not know for rioting. Were know for racial segregation but New York is more racial segregation than we are, Milwaukee is more racial segregation then we are. But I think what it is that Detroit built itself up to the top. Were the number one city in America like in the 20’s, 30’s and 40’s. Were known as the Paris of the western hemisphere and when you’re that high you have so far to fall and that’s why everyone focused on Detroit. But especially when it comes to civil rights. Spencer: Are there any differences between civil rights in Detroit and Grand Rapids? Professor Vannier: Civil rights in Detroit is really, really different because it’s kind of but not really the birth place of civil rights but “I Have A Dream” was given in Detroit first before Washington D.C. Malcolm X was from Detroit and Louis Farrakhan founded the first black mosque in America in Detroit. Malcolm X used to preach there. And a big reason is that it’s the end of the Underground Railroad; it’s the end of the line in Detroit. You go all the way from the South up into Detroit where you would have to hide out in all these old churches in Detroit and have all these secret passageways where they would keep slaves. And the big Mason Lodge, one of the biggest Mason Lodges in the country has all these underground secret passages. You can tour them and they say it’s where they keep slaves running away. But they would also have the slave hunter stay there too. And there’s nothing wrong with slaves eater dinner, slave hunters eating dinner and wall in between them. Because the loop hole is you swim across the river to Canada your free. And because of that Detroit has always had this strong background. One of our riots, I think the 1943 riot, we always had a strong black middle class in Detroit and we had all these southerners coming up to join the auto industry and southerners were coming up thinking they could treat blacks like they treated them in the South. And that’s what started the riot. Young guys versus young guys and these black middle class kids aren’t going to deal with that attitude and it started the whole thing. You have always seen that in Detroit and its very different. Moving out here was really different from moving from Detroit. Like just the way we organize ourselves between classes and stuff like that in Grand Rapids is super different than Detroit. I’ve never been to Grand Rapids before I came here. And my first day, I got this job and I had to find a place to live, and the first day I stepped a foot in Grand Rapids was that day that guy went crazy and shot eight people. That was that day. I was driving down the street tank fast. And I always thought it was badass to live in Detroit. Grand Rapids is tough. And I would ask people where to live, because I always thought it was nice town, and I would ask where to live and people would tell me don’t live south of Wealthy. What the hell is south of Wealthy? It’s very different than Detroit. In Detroit it’s suburb based. Ferndale is nice, anywhere in Ferndale is pretty nice but every place has it’s bad areas. Royal Oak, everywhere in Royal Oak is very nice. Birmingham, you can live anywhere in Birmingham and it’s very nice. Highland Park, don’t live there it’s not so nice. River Rouge not so nice. Then you get into the blue-collar suburbs of Taylor, Westland we call wasteland, Garden City we call garbage city. That’s just blue collar, super blue collar. Here it was different. You go three streets over and you’re in a bad neighborhood all of a sudden. How did this happen? It’s a lot more of what you would see in Brooklyn. Where super nice street, two streets over and it’s super bad. It’s way more like that here where it’s not in Detroit. Where I lived in Burkley you could walk miles and be in nice suburban land; miles and it just doesn’t change. Here it changes and it can change really quickly. I don’t know the history of Grand Rapids and I don’t know why we organize ourselves like that. Like in Detroit it’s a lot of Page 3 �racism where suburbs would guard themselves from anybody moving from Detroit in there. Dearborn is famous for it. They are famous for it for putting up rules and restrictions and all sorts of stuff that prevent black people moving in to the neighborhood. It’s not like that anymore but still to this day there are color lines and dividing lines. Like the difference from Grosse Pointe right across the street from Detroit, and it’s like $500,000 and then a crack house. But Jefferson road is that dividing line. That’s why 8 Mile is such that line. And when you look at population maps, that line is just firm. Instead now a days 8 Mile goes through the suburb of Southfield, which has become the vast gem of the black middle and upper classes. Because they have acknowledged becoming a class thing where middle class flee Detroit. It’s not really race based anymore. But Detroit is changing because it’s now the fasting growing population in Detroit. It was throughout the 80’s, 90’s and 2000’s it was the Mexican population because of Mexican town. That was the fastest growing population in Detroit. Now its young 20 something year old white people. All moving in. And you see it changing everything. All moving in. Hipsters. That’s essentially what it is. Hipsters are moving in to Detroit. And they are bringing with them hip bars and hip restaurants and you see this under-current of change happening in Detroit. Like downtown is getting nicer and nicer and mid-town now is getting nicer and nicer. Tom: But the thing about Detroit is like when you drive there I see so many abandoned buildings and the thing is if they actually want to make the city look nicer they have to do something about those. Professor Vannier: Yeah and that’s one of the great things about Detroit, they can’t. Because those abandoned buildings are owned and you just can’t. We don’t have eminent domain laws, I mean we do but they are super strong eminent domain laws. Where if the city wanted that abandoned building the city would take that abandoned building. The train station is owned by Matty Maroon. And he will not sell it so there it is. Have you ever been to Hockey Town Café? Us: Yeah. Professor Vannier: You know across 75 those tall abandoned buildings, those are owned by Mike Ilitch and he won’t sell them, that’s the end of it. Magic Johnson tried to buy them and he was going to install this huge mega complex theatre shopping mall. Nope. So it would be there and we would all be like wow Detroit is looking so nice but it’s not because Mike Ilitch refuses to sell those buildings. Tom: And that’s weird because Mike Ilitch is seen as like the guy who is saving Detroit. Professor Vannier: Yeah he does a lot but in the other hand he owns a ton of Detroit and he refuses to do anything with it. Like right by the Detroit Medical Center is the biggest medical complex in the world and Page 4 �right in front is this abandoned building. You guy anywhere across the street from the biggest medical complex in the world how much is that property worth? Us: Oh for sure a lot. Professor Vannier: But you know in Detroit whoever happens to own that won’t sell it. It’s a creepy thing. Because typically what it is its called absently landlords. Whoever owns that lives in California, hasn’t been to Detroit in thirty years and refuses to sell it. It’s a tax write off. So yeah, it’s a huge problem in Detroit but it gets that perception where you see Detroit isn’t doing anything. No, people are trying but it’s owned. Finally they sold the Madison building. The owner of Quicken Loans bought it and he is going to turn it into a luxury hotel and apartments and all this different stuff. It’s going to look really nice. Some of those buildings look gorgeous because they are all built in the teens and that old gothic architecture. It looks straight out of a Batman film or something like that. Those gold plated elevators and all that. It’s going to look super neat. He’s going to redo it all and keep that old look. But it’s different. Tyler: Could you describe your experiences coming to Western Michigan? What was it like coming from Wayne State to Grand Valley? Professor Vannier: Coming from Wayne State to Grand Valley is really different. Grand Valley sees itself as a more liberal arts institution where as Wayne State is a research one. They are one of fifty universities that are research one. It’s a huge medical school, huge engineering school and all sorts of research goes on out there. But because nobody is moving out here is that in some of the departments, even the anthropology department you get high-powered anthropology professors. The number one grant getter in anthropology is there, one of the big journals Medical Anthropology Quarterly is published right out of Wayne State. But what you see because of that is hierarchy. Like at Wayne State, even in the Anthropology department, hierarchy. Where there’s people at the top and there’s people at the bottom and I would be a person at the bottom. As in teaching, you teach when you’re told, what you’re told and how you’re told. I come here and it’s all open. Meetings are run by consensus. The chair of the department is the first among equals and that’s all he is. And he sees it that way and everyone sees it that way. They even asked me for my first semester for next fall and the scheduler down the hall came to me and was like all right when do you want to teach? And I’m not used to that question. So I’m like when do you want me to teach? And she says when do you want to teach? And I’m not used to that question. I’m used to being told what classes to teach and when to teach. So it’s really neat because it’s just so much more open and they emphasize liberal arts so much and it’s so nice. At Wayne State I have to explain to students who want to be medical doctors why knowing just what ethnicity means makes a difference. Like why am I taking an anthropology class? This is not biology, this is not chemistry. This serves me no useful function whatsoever. And it’s just hard to deal with. Here everyone gets it, here its way more open here. At Wayne State there’s that different hierarchy where there is a lot of money. The guy that used to own Arbor Drugs and now became CBS sold his company for 4 billion dollars. He is building up Wayne States pharmacy school and it’s going to be the number one pharmacy in the Midwest. It’s going to be better than Ferris. Page 5 �But they got all money. Pharmacy won’t share that, physics won’t share that. Here wealth gets spread around which makes things work. Things are new. It’s just so different and so much nicer. So a lot more goes on at Wayne State but it’s worse in a way. They hire so much more nicer and better faculty here. And how all universities work it’s not up to them, it’s up to the dean. And the dean is looking at the big picture. Spencer: Yeah, here they are really big on student evaluations I know. Like they are huge on that. Professor Vannier: Oh yeah, U of M is the worse but Wayne State they don’t do anything. It doesn’t matter how good of a teacher you are, nobody cares. It’s what research have you done and what grants have you got. That’s everything. Spencer: Yeah that’s what I heard U of M is like too. Professor Vannier: At U of M you will have the worse teacher and you will wonder how is this person teaching class? It’s because they are probably a huge grant getter. They bring that money so you don’t have to. Here they emphasize that. How good of a teacher are you? Which puts me as a visiting professor in a funky position because if I have to leave and I want to go to U of M for example, U of M is going to look at my research where as here they emphasize your teaching. There are only so many hours of the day, what are you focusing on? It’s hard. You have to have a balancing act. Professor Vannier : I’ve got to keep doing research because that’s what other universities are going to look for. But Grand Valley looks for teaching experience. I m in a weird position, its hard. Spencer: I’m sure you looked at your evaluations, I m sure they were all good. Professor Vannier: Oh yea I m not too worried about it. Its ok I did pretty good. But still you need to maintain it because the better they are the better you look. Yeah but other universities they will look at your teaching like third or fourth thing they will look at, which seems kind of weird that they would look at your research, grants, publications, whatever you have done. So that’s why I have moved towards ethnographic films. Producing films. Spencer: Oh really? Page 6 �Professor Vannier : Yeah its whole anthropological thing its one of my, the big film company that does this stuff rejected us. Its one of those things specialist of Africa. Those that aren’t specialist of Africa hate it. Its one of those things its very African. Collective: Yeah Professor Vannier: African’s themselves love it. They think like… It was just screened in Paris by another professor and all these Africans in Paris from French Africa came and she said people were crying and it reminds them of their homeland. People see it here and its like, I don’t get it. You know what I mean? Because we did the film in such a way that it was so African… So we are submitting it to one Afrocentric film company and were working on another one. But that’s the way I differentiate myself…. So when I do have to enter the job market, if I do, I got something that separates myself. We will see what happens…. So yeah it’s really different, professors, students are just very different. Obviously the diversity thing is a little whacky… My classes at Wayne State were United Nations and teaching anthropology was fun, reading a book on Islamic culture essentially, and at Wayne State, 25% of my students would be from the Middle East, if not like 30 to 35% would be Muslims. Spencer: It’s not like that here at all. Professor Vannier: yeah, so these people would know more about that I would and they would talk about it, we would watch a film on India and 15% of my students would be Indian. And you could talk about it but these guys would know more than me. There( Wayne State) you’ve got every damn ethnic group, because you have the auto industry… What is it, they uh what is that little tiny suburb that lives inside Detroit, Hamtramck!.. Is the most diverse square two miles in all of America. There are 142 ethnic groups that live in that area. I have a friend that lives there, and you look at his house, and next-door is a Ukrainian family, next-door is a Bangladeshi family. It’s different. It’s just different. Wayne State is so diverse and here not so much. Tom: Yeah definitely not Professor Vannier: Here you got the Dutch. Spencer: Yeah it doesn’t get much worse. Page 7 �Prof: It is kind of, Vie heard of professors teaching in rural Minnesota, where it just kills them because it is just so damn white. Just rural Minnesotans. So here its not so bad… but it’s a little bit different. But on the west side of the state I keep telling myself I cannot wait for summertime. Because I moved here in like fall.. I got settled in, in October. Spencer: It’s nice here in the summer. Professor Vannier: Yeah that what everyone tells me because you got the beach etc. I want to do M 22, which I see, and I never saw stickers until I got here. I saw stickers on cars that said M22 and I actually had to look it up because I was like what the hell is m22. It’s the road that goes all around the peninsula. That going to be my big thing this summer I’m actually going to do it. But I was looking at this, have you ever seen anyone discriminated in public. Oh anybody else.. yeah not really. Spencer: Yeah she had a lot of different questions that she wanted us to ask, like um , a lot of them were really easy like segregation and stuff but I was like that’s a very select group that we would have to ask that to like do you remember being involved in segregation. Tyler: It was more for like those older people who some people might be interviewing, not your age. Professor Vannier : Segregation but even in Detroit. Its , I remember growing up , a black family moved into my neighborhood, and the older neighbors were pissed. Because they didn’t do anything, but they would grumble.. there goes a nigger.. and even as a kid I thought that was kind of mean and they were just a normal family living there you know, but yeah you saw all these little changes. But you see in Detroit, its still segregated, even in Berkeley there was one black guy on my street that I know of in the neighborhood, and around the corner there was one Latino family. And the only reason I knew they were Latino was because I heard them speaking Latin.. ha not Latin , Spanish. But that’s it , its pretty white. If you go to other areas its very black, if you go to Southfield and you get other areas, I lived near uh…. Its fun to look at, Dearborn is all the Arabs, Hazel Park and Oak Park is all orthodox Jews. And its fun driving through on Saturday because they are not allowed to drive on Saturday, and you see them all walking, so yeah that’s where all the orthodox Jews are. West Bloomfield, Rochester, Rochester hills is the Indian community, all live there . North Novi is where the Japanese community lives. Which is awesome. Yeah, north Novi, you know Novi I96 and Haggerty road. Spencer: Yeah Page 8 �Professor Vannier : well you go to like 15 mile and haggerty and all you see is these Japanese restaurants. One day I was eating in a Japanese restaurant that was connected to a Karaoke bar, and I said I’m going to go check it out, and I opened the door and it was all Japanese men in business suits. And they all stop and look at me. Haha and so I closed the door, and I know when I’m not wanted. Yeah but I was eating and it was funny, there was a bunch of Japanese men, and they brought out that sakei and were just getting plastered. It was just so funny to sit there and watch. They were just feeding them alcohol and all these guy were getting drunk, it was really funny. But, you see it and you see these different ethnic restaurants, its really cool. One thing I miss moving out to uh Grand Rapids is middle-eastern food. Where I was , every gas station had middle-eastern food and there were some really good places, but out here you just can’t get it. Spencer: No not at all. Prof: I miss it so much. That nice middle-eastern kabobs and stuff like that. Tom: It’s so good. Professor Vannier: Holy crap its like 3 bucks a sandwich. Yeah and so you just don’t have it so you miss that diversity but you still see that segregation. its black and white but its going downhill now. Its going downhill , its becoming more class segregation. Where, even then its getting hard to say because people are so mixed now, like in Detroit , your seeing gentrification like where the upper class starts moving into lower class neighborhoods because we are so seeing it. Because these like young white people are moving in, and young white professionals are moving in. And its becoming hip to live down there. If I wasn’t married when I was studying in the honors college, I would have moved down there, but my wife said no way. I would have. I realize as a woman it might be different you know especially at night. And Detroit is still Detroit and you got uh like in the suburbs if you need to go to CVS at midnight, you go to CVS at midnight, but in Detroit you need to be careful about that. But it’s interesting to see how it changes because you see these different neighborhoods. There was one house sold , there is neighborhood called the Boston Edison district, in the olden days it was where all the, like Henry Ford moved there. You know. Spencer: Yeah Professor Vannier: the dodge brothers lived there, just huge mansions, but it’s in the middle of its in north Detroit. So it’s a sketchy area. There was one house that was built in like 1920 and the garage had a carwash where you park your car, get out, go in your house , hit the button , and wash your car. The ballroom, the entire floor of the ballroom was built on springs so when you dance it makes you feel like Page 9 �you are floating. Fountains, through a system was connected through the entire house so you had all these rooms that had fountains that you just turn on a button. Guess how much it sold for? Spencer: I don’t know Prof: 250 grand. Tom: Ha I was going to say a couple mil Tyler: That’s crazy Professor Vannier : Oh I Know who you see buying these houses, usually now its more like black artist, like recording artist and some sports players have moved in. John sally it was the bishop of Detroit’s house, but John Sally from the pistons you know that old 90’s , he won the championship with the bad boys? He bought it and it just turned around, now I think one of the other pistons, Ben Wallace, I think Ben Wallace owns it now. Spencer: Does he really? Professor Vannier : yeah , its something like that , where you see its just like you have the black elite and the white elite lives in West Bloomfield, like Eminem lives in West Bloomfield. Grant Hill lives in Northville where I grew up. Where I grew up I started out as like a strong white-collar auto industry suburb, but middle management, but you could really see the economy, like who’s who in the auto industry, and where they live. It started out middle management, where if you went west of our house it was dirt roads. Now its so built up its like the elite of the auto industry. Ford and GM elite high ranking people. The neighborhood just went up and up and up. Oh but yeah you really see its based more on economy and who’s who and that’s kind of the suburb you live in. The blue-collar auto industry workers are out in Westland and Grand Rapids, not Grand Rapids, Garden City and Taylor. White collar is Northville and Novi, Birmingham. The Doctors and professionals typically live in Rochester and West Bloomfield. Yeah it’s all rally weird. And Grand Rapids, it’s no like that. Not like that at all. So its very different moving out here. Ah I don’t know how I got on that topic. But this kind of thing with discrimination, one thing, I don’t even want to say it because a lot of people disagree but I have had a lot of young male professors talk about it. Not in this department at all, here its very open, very nice, nobody cares. But anthropology as a total as a whole you to like these national meetings and stuff, and Anthropology has gone feminized. At these meetings maybe its 2 to 1 female to male. You’ll go to these talks and I will be the only guy. Its all women and it really hasn’t affected me but I’ve know other young Page 10 �men who I’ve talked to amongst the young male professors. Little bit of what’s called masonry has slipped in. Where you know misogyny is hating women, masonry it hating men. Where it has just become so feminized. But you see this little masonry, male hating, moving in. And its never been me because I have been careful about what I say. But it is hyper liberal, politically. To the point where its annoying me. Spencer: Yeah Professor Vannier: But if you start saying stuff that doesn’t fit that liberalism and liberalist, you get gunned down, I mean you can get gunned down hard. And you see a little bit of discrimination, I mean its pretty funny. When people talk about that in academics, but the counter argument is, you go to one of these conferences and everyone is a liberal, you go to a conference among hedge fund managers and they’re all conservative. You know what I mean. It’s the same damn thing it just depends what field you work in. But yeah there is , I can see discrimination against, politically discrimination against like more conservative to the point where you don’t even hear of conservative anthropologist. Spencer: No Professor Vannier: very pro-capitalist anthropologist is kind of a no, no. you know what I mean? And its really weird, really different. I was at this one talk, where it was on Haiti, that’s why I was there. And this one woman was talking about how, she wasn’t saying it but it was exactly what she was talking about. These people, she was working in urban Haiti and under Duvalier the totalitarian dictator, there was a political hierarchy. And if you were like a poor person working and you needed something done and you would go to one of duvale’s lower ranking military guys and you would talk to him and you would try to get this done. If he was going to help you he would go to the next higher up, which would go to the next higher up in the chain. And they would eventually get it done if they decided to do that. Now there’s no Duvalier, it’s a perfect free democracy so there is none of that. So if you need something done what do you do? You don’t get it done and that’s the end of it. So these people are bitching like we want our dictator back. We could get things done with the dictator. And this lady was saying this at this conference, and holy crap, people were pissed. I didn’t raise my hand or say anything. After the talk I went up to her and talked to her and said I know exactly what you are talking about. But when I was there violence was bad. Well the guy that changed my money, right when I left, someone else came up and said give me all your money and just boom hit him right in the head. That never would have happened under Duvalier. Under the high point of Duvalier in like the 60s there was no crime and no crime is everywhere. if you walk down the street you can get shot. If you go walking down the street you can get kidnapped. And people would talk about under Duvalier that you follow the rules. Follow the rules and you have a perfectly peaceful happy life. Now we have all these civil rights and freedoms and you can’t even walk down the street. But still the point is that the women at the conference started saying that and it didn’t fit in that liberal you know and it was really rough. It was pretty funny. Yeah but being a young man a young male conservative in anthropology. Like I said not at the department level not here. Page 11 �Spencer: Yeah Professor Vannier: but you know these big conferences that engage the discipline, those people are for real. And even anthropology there are people studying around the world. I don’t know the exact figures what percentage at these big conferences is white people but its probably like 80 percent maybe 85 percent. So you have all these white people still talking about the poor black Africans. You know what I mean. And there’s something weird about that but anthropology knows that and we recognize it but don’t do anything about it. So its different, its been really different. And I think a lot of it comes from me growing up in Detroit where you got a lot of different ethnic families. Growing up in Detroit I think that influenced me heavily. you also have the strong class antagonisms. Where you got the union working shop people versus the might collar management people you know what I mean? And you got these strong notions, my grandfather till the day he died only went to full service gas stations Tyler: Really? Professor Vannier: Yeah because it gives a man a job that how he referred to it, it gives a man a job. You know you’re influenced by that and now its just different. Yeah but moving out here I expected it to be super conservative but its really not that I’ve seen. People say, well maybe I’m not in the right place but like Holland and Zeeland. Tom: Yeah my roommate is form Zeeland he says its like the most conservative place he has ever been. Professor Vannier: Yeah I think its like the most conservative place in Zeeland. I think McDonalds just won the right to open on Sunday like six years ago. I know because of that strong church . but yeah I haven’t really seen it, Grand Rapids has been good but I think Grand Rapids has changed with the healthcare industry. But you still see the conservatives like the Devos’s are very conservative. They give a lot of money to conservative causes. Yeah I just haven’t noticed it around here at all. But civil rights, yeah I don’t really knows how it works in Grand Rapids and Grand valley is so different because it’s no universe. Like at Wayne State you get MLK day off. It’s a big holiday there’s speeches and parades, it’s a big deal because its got that deep history in Detroit for being that end of the line for the Underground Railroad. It’s a big deal, but here not so much. There’s just not that history here you know what I mean? Tom: Yeah. Page 12 �Professor Vannier: There no connection to it. And its very recent people start moving out here but with Detroit they have had people coming in since the 1700s you know different groups and waves and migrants. That how the Arab Americans got here you know we were known for our Arab Americans running the gas stations. In Seattle it’s the Vietnamese in New York I think it’s the Indians. I don’t know. Somebody broke it down to me why that is but I don’t remember what they said, but they were distinct reasons for that. Anyways what else do you want to know? I just rambled on and on off topic. Especially since its being recorded. Spencer: No its all-good stuff, she just. We told we wanted to interview you, you know something that was moving from Detroit you know coming here but um, she wanted someone who knew the history of Grand Rapids and I’m like well that kind of hard because there are so few people that really know the history of grand rapids. Tom: Especially since you just moved here you obviously don’t have a lot of knowledge on that. Professor Vannier: Yeah I know people tell like 15 years ago it was a hellhole that’s what people have told me, but that a shock to me because in Detroit we always think Grand Rapids is a sunny and beautiful city. And I was shocked because I never knew that. I was when I came here and people said “oh god 15 years ago this place was horrible” just like people say you can’t move south of Wealthy. These different neighborhoods you don’t go to, and don’t move to. Because I didn’t know where I was going I mean I needed to find somewhere. I stuck with what they told me like north of wealthy south of 196 east of downtown and they told these specific spots you know. Like that where you want to live and don’t go anywhere else. I started checking around other areas and boy there are some rough areas out there in Grand Rapids. Some rough areas. Tyler: Yeah once you pass this one spot in downtown Grand Rapids its just straight do not go there. Professor Vannier: Yeah, over the river and south I was going through this neighborhood to look at this house we might buy and I turned around. Because it was like hills have eyes because these people were just sitting on porches giving you the look. Like outsider you are not welcome down this street. I was just like okay ill turn around I’m out of here. But yeah I don’t know how different it is in Allendale because you just have students out here. Tyler: Yeah pretty much just straight suburb. Page 13 �Professor Vannier: Yeah I was too wary like what if I rented out a house in the middle of a student neighborhood that would be kind of weird. To see my students in the morning. We could all commute together. But yeah definitely not a good idea. This kids having a huge house party next door and he invites me over, ha no I don’t think that’s really a good idea. So I live more mid town now, that’s where I found my house. We are in walking distance of downtown, its kind of nice. Right by Martha’s Vineyard. When I first moved here everyone was like Martha’s Vineyard, and it’s a party store. I was like what’s the big deal? You know there not many grocery stores where I live. It’s a different spot , Grand Rapids is very different from Detroit . Very, very different from Detroit. In Detroit anywhere is, like everything is near you but everything is far away. Takes you half an hour to get anywhere because Detroit is so huge. Here you know everything is so close together because you are right here. You know what I mean? It just a smaller city. Professor Vannier: Buts it’s nice I can’t wait for summer time; see how it works. Are there any books, articles, films, speeches, newspapers, performances that influence your thinking about race and ethnicity? Spencer: Yeah that was the question from her. Professor Vannier: Yeah in Detroit. The only thing I can tell you, what happened, when was this it? About two years ago, it really gave me such pride in the city of Detroit. Basically, you know the big thing with the Muslim community and in Detroit that’s not a big deal. No body cares in Detroit if you’re Muslim nobody cares, nobody cares, Orthodox Jew, nobody cares, you know, black white, nobody cares. As long as your working you know it’s more of a class thing you know its, nobody cares. Elsewhere in America people really care about this stuff. That woman running for senate in Nevada, we have to stop Dearborn. And all of Dearborn looked up and was like what the hell did we do? Where we come from? She was worried about Sharia Law being implemented in Dearborn so the Mayor of Dearborn, Jock O’ Riley this Irish guy, I don’t think Sharia laws going on hear lady you have to figure out. But, we always get these groups coming up here from, outsiders, coming up to Detroit and trying to cause trouble. And this one group, like that guy from Florida, you’ve ever seen that pastor with the big bushy mustache? He’s always up in Detroit, we hate so much. Because the attitude of, we can kill each other, that’s fine, no outsiders. You can’t come here and cause trouble because then we all ban together, against the outsiders. Everybody hates that pastor, you’re not going to change and he’s going to whip up the people of Detroit you know to realize that Sharia, no, no your not. We hate you. Professor Vannier: But, this one group, it was like two years ago. I m thinking of an incident that made me think about ethnicity and race and how it works in Detroit. Because of the cars, were more based on class than anything else and where you are in the industry. Blue collar, white, middle management, upper white collar. That’s more important. But, um there’s this group from Tennessee, they’re going to come up here, you know southern Tennessee, they’re going to protest Sharia law and the Muslims and shit like Page 14 �that. Um they came up, it was about two years ago, and it was on the news. They came up here and they were going to set up, they had hotels for three weeks. The first morning they were going to protest a mosque, you know and you know what their thinking, there going to intimidate you know little Muslim kids and Muslim women. But, they didn’t realize, when they got here, was that mosque, that they were going to protest at five in the morning, because the call to prayer, five in the morning, was next door to the mosque founded by, Louis Fericon, Black Muslims, who are a completely different group of people than Arab Muslims. So you had this, you know Black Muslim, you know Malcolm X, Black Muslim, its still a, the first mosque ever and that group of people I knew one of them, I knew a Black Muslim who was an archeologist and she was super cool. Her name was Allison, but um her Black Muslim name was Sultana X because they’re all X. You can just see how it works, you know Malcolm X, she was Sultana X. You give your name an X because your not taking your slave masters name, you this strong thing. The Mosque that they were protesting, you know all these white people from Tennessee show up at five in the morning while all these little Arab kids trying to get into this mosque and next door was the Black Muslim mosque. Do you think that, O my goodness, it was awesome, that these just huge, huge black dudes just come pouring out of there. Know that there was no violence, but they just got all up in their face. I remember distinctly this black Muslim woman where this one Tennessee guy like aren’t you concerned about Sharia law, right in front of one of the huge black dudes, I m going to Sharia law up your ass if you don’t get out of here. They were suppose to be here for three weeks, they lasted forty-five minutes. They went running back with their tails between their legs. And I was so happy with Detroit, do they give a crap that you are Arab and that they were black, no. And it was, it was in Hamtramck, so diverse. Where you got this Ukrainian family that was furious cause they were woken up over the whole thing at five in the morning you know I don’t know who these people are from Tennessee, go away. But it just yeah that race, that ethnicity really just didn’t matter when outsiders are involved. It matters inside where you get trouble, but it doesn’t matter outside. When outsiders come in, we all ban together, were like go away, we don’t want you here we can kill each other. Professor Vannier: Well know that I m thinking about it, I learned this while I was at Wayne State. In like the Arab-American community, ethnicity matters, there’s a hierocracy of ethnicity. I know Yeminis’ are at the bottom and their considered kind of poor backwards. In Detroit they’re considered the white trash, if I may, of the Arab community. Where you got the, there’s no Saudi, but you got the Lebanese, the Iraqi Chaldeans a more at the top, followed by the Jordanians, then the Syrians. We don’t have a lot of Iranians I don’t know how exactly it breaks down, but you have a lot of Lebanese. I knew a lot of Lebanese they’d tell me, yeah were at the bottom, and I was like how does that work. I never knew that. You know in America we like lump them all together, where they see themselves as very, very low. That ethnicity really, really matters. I go, God that’s weird, but if one of them came out here you know you wouldn’t look at them as Lebanese, their Arab-American. You know, no one would care, they belong in that big group where they get along where there’s that strong ethnic rankings, ethnic rankings. I bet if you’re from Africa it would be the same way. Where you are form Africa would matter in that population, you know what I mean. We’re all looking at them like, their African you know, but to them it’s a big deal. So it’s different, very different in Detroit. Page 15 �Professor Vannier: Detroit’s got really different race relations than other places in uh in America. It’s all the auto industry, and the factories and everyone coming over here to work in the auto industry. It’s all the auto industry. It’s more class based. Out here I don’t know how it works. Professor Vannier: I don’t know how Grand Rapids does it. I think it’s too new, like the health care industries too new. I know since I’ve been here they’ve opened up Davenport University, opened up downtown, Buffalo Wild Wings opens up this Friday, like holy crap. The Grand Rapids art fair or that art prize is a huge event. I’ve never been, being in Detroit we hear all about it you know you got to go to the art prize, what’s going on at the art prize, you got to go to the art prize, what’s going on at the art prize, you know what I mean cause it’s a huge event. And everybody’s so like you’re so lucky to move to some place like Grand Rapids, I thought God it must be a beautiful place. And I got here, a guy kills lots of people you know, its like O my God are you serious. And it was a joke when we were looking around for house, my wife and I were like were not aloud to go south of wealthy, lets go check it out. We went like two blocks in, and at one corner there was three cop cars. Maybe we shouldn’t be here and forever its burned in my mind, like don’t go south of wealthy. So it’s so weird, so weird, and just very different. Professor Vannier: Where you can go like a mile and it changes, where in Detroit you can go miles and miles and miles and it won’t change. Just suburbs’ as far as the eye can see, you know just single-family homes as far as the eye can see. It’s just suburban America, metro Detroit. But, it’s different because the auto industry, Oakland county, it was before the recession, Oakland county was the third richest county in America, behind Orange, the OC, and uh a county in Connecticut where all the hyper rich New Yorkers’ live. Boom, boom, Oakland County, and it is how we support four sports teams. You know what I mean. Where other cities can’t, we can because we have so much money. The suburbs have all the money, you know what I mean and they can support four different teams in four different buildings, the only city to do that. Four winning teams, think about it. Or if the pistons got good, where we got the Red Wings, the Tigers could go for it all this year, the Lions are starting to emerge, and we support all four teams. How do you do that? Not in New York doesn’t do that, LA has what, they don’t have football, two basketball teams, two baseball teams. And yeah we sell out our games. And its really weird, people, people don’t consider that when they look at Detroit, people don’t consider that. And its all that wealth created by the auto industry. That’s why Mitt Romney’s screwed, people are still pissed and he’s trying to twist the message, good luck dude, good luck. There still pissed at him over that. But, yeah I don’t know the history of Grand Rapids enough to know how it works. Spencer: Yeah I think that’s fine because we told her we wanted to get your side from Detroit and kind of a little bit, we knew that it wasn’t going to be like, you know how she wanted it, but she said that’s fine. Professor Vannier: You know you can always look up Grand Rapids yourself, too. But, yeah you know Detroit its all the auto industry, all the auto industry. I don’t know if I m going to get into it, but how the ghetto was created in Detroit. How Detroit became that, the way that the inner city, hard core, super big black populations. Were the blackest city in America, it’s changing, slowly, but we are. And you know Page 16 �it’s everyone coming to work in the auto industry, but you know by the time they got here the auto industry had already left. So they go down to the suburbs. There’s no jobs, no nothing, auto industry went to the suburbs because there’s more land available to build factories. All the people already working in the auto industry followed, the people coming in, were stuck. And that’s boom, where you get like that inner city poverty. And know it’s all moving back in, all coming back in. Led by again Mike Ilitch, Quicken Loans guy, Dan Gilbert that’s his name, is leading the charge. Yeah all moving back into the city, because all the suburbs are all too built up, too expensive now. It’s like a life cycle, you know it’s like a city life cycle. See the suburbs will be bad, probably within twenty years and the city will be where it’s at. Yeah so it’s all based on that and those race relations, you know where you sit in that hierarchy of the factory and stuff like that. It’s different, very, very different look. But how it’s going to change in Grand Rapids, I have no idea. Spencer: Well uh I think that’s good. Professor Vannier: Is that good? Tyler: Yeah. Professor Vannier: Did I say enough? Spencer: If we come up with anything else we’ll let you know. But, yeah I think that’s definitely good. Professor Vannier: Yeah if you come up with any other questions let me know. I love talking about this stuff. I taught a class on it. That’s why I know so much about it. I know enough there and it just drives me nuts when people just hate on Detroit. And it’s just like do you realize we invented the middle class. We invented unions, we invented all of that. First, stop light, first paved roads. You know first sold foundation, black middle class was in Detroit. All so much came out of Detroit that people just don’t recognize. I mean it all started here. And you see so many people from Detroit, Malcolm X, Madonna, The White Stripes have moved back. Who just moved in that they were talking about on the news, you ever heard of the band Flocking Molly? Why the hell they came to Detroit I have no idea, but the two main members just moved into Detroit. Moved into those neighborhoods, they moved into Palmer Woods, which is a different area. But, those super hyper rich houses in the middle of kind of a bad area, they just moved there. Why, have no idea, but that’s where they live know. I think its because theirs such an emerging uh artist community in Detroit. Where you got artist film makers know, you got all sorts of stuff going on and its all underground. Super underground, but it’ll emerge, it’ll emerge, where know you got like big, like right now the Detroit Fashion Show. It’s not very big, but a lot of fashion designers are starting to get involved because they’re seeing in like ten years Detroit Fashion Show might be where it’s Page 17 �at. So you see that like people are trying to get in now, you know what I mean. Cause they just see, New York will always be king, always be king, but Detroit’s going to matter in a little bit. We got all these different things happening. So it’s cool. You should go there sometime. Check out the different restaurants. Tom: Yeah I mean I’ve been to Detroit a few times, several times, but sporting events mostly. Professor Vannier: Yeah and it’s weird amongst the older generations you still see the segregation were uh you see uh people that were born and raised two miles from the city have never stepped foot in it because its just an evil awful place, you know what I mean. You got though, because you know we still were one of the most racially segregated places and we went through a lot of battles and how to you know keeping people out from moving into the suburbs. But, know it’s much, much less now. But, those older generations still see it, still just hate Detroit, you know you grew up in like Royal Oak, you know what I mean, you live three miles from the city even though will never come back, never ever, ever go back because they see it’s that culture of terror. Your going to get shot the second you step foot, no your not, there’s nobody there. You know not enough people to shoot you. So yeah you still see it, so still I don’t want to make it sound like it’s all class based theirs still a lot of racism, but it’s usually mostly older generations. Amongst the younger generations that grew up there go to Detroit all the time. That’s who is moving in. Yeah so you see it changing amongst generations, but interesting stuff. You can check it out. Tom: Like I’ve been to like uh, Greek town I have dinner there, go to a Red Wings game and then. Professor Vannier: Go to Slows Barbeque down Michigan Avenue. Best restaurant in all of Detroit. Best restaurant there. They just opened another one by Wayne State. Right now its mid town is really happening now where Mo cat is, the DIA is there, Wayne State’s there, because they just built dorms for the first time. So now you got students living there and once you have students living there businesses are going to follow. And they are, your starting to see bars opening up you know. More stuff just geared towards like young twenty something people. Starting to open up and what’s that going to cause. More twenty something’s to move in there, which cause what, more businesses to start and that’s where the whole thing goes. Whole thing heads that direction, you’re seeing it starting to go that direction. Yeah I wonder where they’re going to build the new Joe Louis Arena? They still won’t say and it just might be rumors. Either across from hockey town that’s why he owns those buildings, tear them down, build the new Joe Louis Arena there or where Tiger Stadium used to stand. Tom: The thing is I love where Joe Louis is right now right on the river there. I think it’s awesome. Page 18 �Professor Vannier: Yeah, yeah it makes perfect sense for him. It doesn’t make sense for Detroit cause that river front property is solid property. You could build condos there, overlooking the river. Restaurants and bars overlooking the river, that money, right now we got this stadium sitting right there, you know what I mean. It makes perfect sense for Mike, doesn’t make sense for the city. And what, what he probably will do, he’s not saying I imagine he will do it himself. Where he’ll move Joe Louis somewhere else, tear down the original Joe Louis Arena and build his own, high rise condos, you know what I mean. He’ll make a fortune, he’ll make a fortune off of that and it’s good for him, I mean it’ll be good for Detroit too good for him. But, I know a lot of people that live in Detroit that hate Mike Ilitch, hate Mike Ilitch. But, the big evil guys mad in the room, he owns the bridge, too. He’s the antichrist of Detroit, people hate his guts, owns the train station won’t do anything with it. We threatened him with eminent domain so he said he’s going to fix it up so he took like one side of it and fixed the windows. I fixed it up. There you go. That’s the game we play with Mattie. He lives in Texas, multi-billionaire, lives in Texas. Evil, evil, person and he’s blocking the bridge, the new bridge. Rick Snyder wants the new bridge, all the auto companies want the new bridge, what seems to be the problem here you know. Nope, nope, but O well its good stuff. If you got anymore questions just email me or stop in. END OF INTERVIEW Page 19 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2a1f2341cf08036b1f4efb4f666bd326.mp3 43c028502c40c77ee9b41e3399f2b211 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Vannier_Christian Title A name given to the resource Christian Vannier audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Vannier, Christian Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Spencer Tom Description An account of the resource Christian Vannier discusses the civil rights differences between western and eastern Michigan. In particular, he draws on his experiences at Wayne State University and Grand Valley State University. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-12-15 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e5719330e9f35af8eeabccf0b7806177.mp4 45664778e39e1d8517afcc6b5cfa253b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8d00ab3cdf45be5eb3ad3fee235781b4.pdf c3ec0785e45e0ca91b0bbdfd5560df39 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW DAVID CHRISTIAN Born: Muskegon, Michigan Resides: Grand Rapids, Michigan Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, May 30, 2013 Interviewer: Mr. Christian, can you start with a little background on yourself, where and when were you born? I was born in 1946 in Muskegon, Michigan. My family lived in Muskegon Heights, Michigan and I grew up there. We moved when I was five years old, I guess, to the home that I grew up in, the only one that I remember. Interviewer: Was that still in Muskegon? Yes, that was in Muskegon Heights and I went through grade school, junior high and high school, and graduated in 1964. 1:09 Interviewer: What did your family do for a living? My father worked for Tyler Sales, which was Drewry‟s Beer. He was the warehouse manager, so I grew up helping him on Saturday‟s, wash the trucks, loading the trucks, doing that. My mother worked for Stanley Home Products for several years. My dad left that job and worked at Bennett Pumps in Muskegon Heights. They made the pumps for gas stations and he retired from there and they moved on to Florida. I graduated from high school in 1964 and Vietnam was just starting and there wasn‟t much in the papers about it, but a friend and I that graduated together, we decided that we were going to go into the Marine Corps together. 2:10 So, we went in and he couldn‟t get in. 1 �Interviewer: What was your motivation at that point, just a whim? What was attractive about the Marine Corps? No, I knew some guys that had been in the Marine Corps, only older of course, and the uniform, like everybody says, that uniform is a killer. So, I thought that was pretty impressive and I read a lot about the Marine Corps and the things that were going on and what they had done since 1776. I just said, “I‟m not messing around with any other branch of the service, I‟m going for the big guns”. Interviewer: And why go into the service rather than...? Did you have a prospect to go to college, or would you just have gone to work somewhere? I graduated with the general degree and I never had any college thoughts. 3:05 I figured I‟d just work and then I went and talked to the recruiter and decided, “This is where I want to go”, and so we joined. Interviewer: You said your friend didn’t get in. No, he didn‟t get in, but another friend of mine that I graduated with, he did get in, so we went in on the buddy system, and went to San Diego for our recruit training. We got out of San Diego and came home on leave. Interviewer: Now, let’s back up here a little bit. A lot of people nowadays aren’t familiar with what the Marine Corps basic training consisted of , so what kind of reception did you get when you got to San Diego? If you‟ve ever seen anything on TV that‟s it Interviewer: Can you explain that? You get off an airplane, or however you got to California, you get on a cattle car, or a bus and these drill instructors are in your face. 4:11 It‟s dead on, you sit straight, you don‟t 2 �talk, you look straight ahead, you don‟t scratch, you don‟t do anything. If you just turn your eyes, they‟re right there, they watch you and It‟s discipline, discipline, discipline the whole time. You get off the bus and they‟re yelling at you, there‟s five or six that some and swarm you. You get off the bus and they got footprints painted all over and you go jump on the footprints, drop all your stuff, and stand at attention, as best as we knew attention, and they will tell you, they‟ll adjust you until you get it the Marine Corps way. Then for the next ten days, I mean, it‟s nothing but yelling, the whole time they‟re yelling. Drill instructors do not talk, they yell. 5:03 Interviewer: Were you expecting that when you went? Yes, because I had seen some things on TV, my brother-in-law, at the time, was a Marine Corps recruiter in New York, so he kind of clued me in on what was going on. Interviewer: So, you knew these guys were not completely insane and there was a particular thing they were doing? In general, how well did you adjust to the marine way of doing things? I enjoyed it because I‟ve always been kind of—I like discipline, I like things in a certain order, and I liked the discipline, I got to it right away and it never bothered me, because I knew how to take an order. Interviewer: Aside from learning to take orders and so forth, what other kind of training were you getting there at that stage? A lot of physical, of course, you get up in the morning and triple S and you‟re out the door. 6:10 You stand in line and then you start calisthenics for a while and they start out fairly slow to get people adjusted to it, but then a lot of running, a lot of heavy lifting and things. It‟s all to break you down and then build you up mentally and physically. 3 �Interviewer: Were you in pretty good physical shape when you went in? Yeah, I was because I was on the gymnastics team, and the cross country team in high school, so I was in pretty good shape. Interviewer: That and throwing a few beer kegs around probably helped. Well, I did a lot of that too Interviewer: In general, what kinds of people were there along with you? People from every walk of life--we had people from New York, Chicago, California and, of course, they stood out because they were “sunshine boys”, and all glamour guys it seemed. 7:09 A lot from the Midwest, farmers, I mean people that were uneducated and people that had college already, it was amazing. Interviewer: Was there an ethnic mix to it? Were there blacks? Oh yeah, we had black, white, Mexican, I think there were a couple Japanese, it was just a mixture. Interviewer: Did most of them get through the training in one piece, or did people bounce out? Oh, we lost a few and I can‟t remember exactly how many we started out with, but we lost a few through—they couldn‟t take the physical part of it and they‟d fall out. Some of them couldn‟t take the mental part and they‟d fall out. 8:00 Some of them just absolutely didn‟t like it, so they‟d do anything they could to get out. Interviewer: Now, at this stage, was the Marine Corps in a position where they could still be a little bit pickier than they were going to be later? Oh yeah, the Marine Corps back then was an elite group. There were probably less than fifty thousand people in the Marine Corps, so they could be pretty selective at that time. 4 �Interviewer: So, how long is the basic training then? Thirteen weeks, everything in the Marine Corps seems to be thirteen weeks. Interviewer: Now, did you got to an advanced training before you got leave to go home, or did you go home just after the thirteen weeks? After boot camp we went to, it was called ITR, infantry training regiment, in Camp Pendleton, and then we left right from there and went home for a few days. Interviewer: How was the infantry training at Camp Pendleton different from boot camp? 9:01 It‟s a lot more physical, you‟re carrying packs because they‟re getting you set to carry things, plus the rifle, taking instant orders, and acting instantly in bad situations, where somebody‟s shooting at you. Interviewer: At this stage in your career were you still just basically a foot soldier or were you going to get training for more specialized duties? I knew that I had signed up for air wing, which was working on either fixed wing or helicopters, and I knew that schooling was coming, so after ITR, the infantry training, we knew we were going to a different school. Interviewer: But in the meantime, you were getting the same infantry training as everybody else. Oh yes, yes, all marines are riflemen, it doesn‟t matter, clerk, cook, it doesn‟t matter, you‟re all riflemen. 10:04 Interviewer: What kinds of weapons were you training on at that point? 5 �The M-14, at that time, is what we had. We started out carrying the M-1 carbine, but we never did shoot that, you just carry it, but then they switched over, afterwards, to the M14 and we got later into the 45. Interviewer: Did you work with machine guns or mortars or things like that too? We got to shoot each one of those. They just—they give you the basics, if you were, especially the ground troops, if they were going on to infantry, they would give them more training, either on mortars, machine guns, or BAR, whatever they had. Interviewer: The people who were doing the training, were they combat veterans mostly, or just people who had been in the corps in peacetime, or do you not know? 11:00 I really didn‟t know, now there were some that-- the little older guys, who had Korea. Most of them were younger and probably hadn‟t seen any combat because there really wasn‟t anything going on then. Interviewer: Right, we hadn’t been engaged in Vietnam yet, so they’re not coming back from that yet, at this point. There were some that were from Vietnam because Vietnam, we had troops there since like. 1955. Interviewer: Yes, there were some that had been advisors. There were some that had been there, but not in a combat situation. Interviewer: So, was the combat training still geared for fairly conventional warfare at that point? Yes it was, the same thing that, probably, every service went through, it was all the same. 6 �Interviewer: Not geared specifically toward Vietnam or jungle fighting, or that kind of thing yet? No Interviewer: Later on it would be, but not at that stage. So, you go through the infantry training, and what was it like to go back home again after several months in the Corps? 12:04 I walked a little straighter, I walked a little prouder, I probably thought I was a little tougher than what I really was. That was interesting, to see some of my friends that I had competed against in high school. Here I come home in a uniform and Marine Corps, that was—they were impressed. Interviewer: It was still early enough for that response—you could still come home in uniform and it was not a big deal. Then you go—where do you go for your next round of training? After my leave I went back to California, Camp Pendleton, for ITR. We got out of there and I went to Millington, Tennessee, Memphis, for they call it mechfund, mechanical fundamentals, on the jets. 13:04 Interviewer: How long of a training course was that? I really can‟t remember that, but it was probably, at least, three months, because we went through how the aircraft is built and the structures and everything, and there was quite a bit on that, and some hydraulics, some electronics, seeing as how I was an aviation structural mechanic, we got more into the metal facets of it. Interviewer: What was the daily routine like there as opposed to what it had been in the infantry training or something else? 7 �There wasn‟t a whole lot of PT. You might get out and do a half an hour of calisthenics or something, but then it was mainly just a school situation. 14:07 Interviewer: Did you get much hands on work? Oh yeah, after the first couple of weeks then it was your--of course not right on a jet, because that was what I was going into was fixed wing. We‟d have parts to look at. Interviewer: Was the group that you were with a little bit different from the one that you’d been with in the earlier stages of training? Did they have more education or practical experience? Most of them had higher education or at least finished high school. Some of them had some basic metal training. It was just a bunch of nineteen year old kids trying to do something. Interviewer: Once you finished that, what’s the next step for you? 15:00 After that, after the school, then we got to go home on leave again, and then we were assigned a base where we were going to go and learn what was going on all levels of fixed wing aircraft, and like a group situation with hundreds of guys working and doing different jobs. Interviewer: Okay, so where did you get sent then? After Tennessee what’s the next stop/ After Tennessee, I‟ve been trying to think of that and I‟ll tell you it is—my mind—I can‟t remember a lot of the things that went on. I can‟t remember where I went. Interviewer: Was it a long stay or just a couple of months? 16:02 It was fairly short because September, August—September of 1965 I was in California and at El Toro and we got on a ship at Long Beach and went to Vietnam. 8 �Interviewer: What was the ride on the ship like? It was like nothing I had ever seen before in my life. I‟d watch the thing—my father was in WWII and he was in the 8th Army air wing, or Air Corps, and when they came home they came home with their planes and that and it was the first time I had ever seen a ship that big with that many people on it. 17:04 Twenty guys in a room like my bedroom, and you had beds that were this far apart stacked floor to ceiling and bulkhead to bulkhead. It was just—close quarters, very hot, and just chaos to me. Interviewer: Did people get sea sick on top of that? Oh yeah, fortunately I grew up in a fishing family, so that never bothered me and I‟ve been, growing up in Muskegon, I‟ve been on Lake Michigan, and Muskegon Lake, so storms, that never bothered me, but I watched a lot of guys over the rail. Interviewer: About how long did that trip take? Thirty days, we were on the USS Princeton, an LPH-5, which was carrying helicopters and jets. 18:07 I can‟t remember how long the ship is, but you could run around it in about three minutes and we did a lot of that. We ran into a big storm out in the middle of the ocean and it was—we were going up and down sixty feet, and I mean, it was a lot and a lot of people getting sick. Interviewer: Did you stop off anyplace on the way? We stopped in Hawaii, we got in there early in the morning, I can remember coming around, I think that‟s Diamond Head, coming into port in Hawaii and I thought, “This is nice, we‟re going to get some leave in Hawaii, all right”, and they wouldn‟t let us off the base, so we did get to go off the ship and walk around on the docks while they refueled and took on more food. 19:08 We were standing there watching them load the ships 9 �and they were loading on live ammunition, and everybody was saying, “What‟s this for?” They told us that we were going on an exercise and when they started taking on live ammo everybody‟s thinking, “What, what is this?” Of course there are some guys that were smarter than others and they kind of figured that we were going to Vietnam, but they didn‟t tell us that until two days out of Hawaii, and then they told us we were going to Vietnam. Interviewer: Was Vietnam the next stop, or did you stop somewhere else? Vietnam was the next stop. Interviewer: Where did you land? We landed just off of Chu Lai, and we went off the shop in helicopters—bail out of the helicopter and set up what they call a hasty perimeter for defense, because we were all thinking we were going to be getting shot at and all this, you know, nineteen year old kids. 20:07 We jumped off and everybody‟s aiming their rifles and all this. We looked up and here‟s a Seabee sitting on his bulldozer just laughing at us. He‟s out there with no shirt just enjoying the sun and watching these dumb marines coming off the helicopters and thinking they‟re going to be getting into a battle. Interviewer: So there were some people there before you were? Oh yes, we were one of the first air units to go in, probably the first big influx of marines to go into Vietnam. Interviewer: What did you do once you got there? Once we got there, the first thing they did was, once we got everybody off the ship and all our gear and everything, the first thing is you‟ve got to set up a perimeter for guard duty. 21:09 Of course, that‟s the first thing I got, was being on guard duty, because they 10 �didn‟t have anything built yet to start working on aircraft and we only had a few aircraft at that time. We just got in our fire teams, which is four guys. It‟s usually a lance corporal, corporal and then three lesser people to run a fire team, and they‟d set us on a bunker line. We had to build our own bunkers, but fortunately we ran into a Seabee and kind of made friends with this guy and gave him some cigarettes, or something, and he took his big bulldozer and dug us out a hole right on this ridge. 22:00 I mean it was beautiful; we had the best bunker in the whole unit. Interviewer: What kind of building materials were you working with? Was it sandbags or metal sheeting? A lot of sandbags, and we‟d go out and cut down palm trees and use them and just steal what you can. We went in and we got some—it the night we‟d go in and commandeer some martial matting. We‟d put it over the hole and then four or five layers of sandbags. Whatever you could get, that‟s what you‟d use. Guys dug it by hand and used rocks or anything else they could get. Interviewer: Now, did you have things like barbed wire and mines and stuff like that as well? There was that, but we didn‟t get into that because that was more of a specialty and there were guys that were trained in how to use that. They call it concertina wire and it comes in big rolls, but all it is, is barbed wire. 23:02 They went down on the beach and set those up and they‟d put out mines and pop flares and other things for security. Interviewer: So, were there regular marine ground troops there? We had the ground troops, but just a very small unit, just for that reason, to do those things. 11 �Interviewer: Now, the area where you were, was there a civilian population there? There was a village not too far from where we were at Chu Lai. There was some ROK marines, Korean marines that were stationed not too far away. There was a hospital area being built not too far away, a couple of miles, I guess. Interviewer: Did you have much contact with the civilians or the Koreans? 24:02 No, no contact what so ever, we were on one hundred percent alert, because they didn‟t know and nobody knew what was going on right then, so we were on, pretty much, one hundred percent alert all the time and you couldn‟t go anywhere, and there wasn‟t anywhere to go, because there was nothing there. Interviewer: So, there was not really a city or town close to where you were, or anything else like that. No, just the little village Interviewer: Now, did you have any contact with the enemy after you got there? Yeah, we did—of course we had--the probes would come in right away, I mean the first night we had people coming up close to what wire we had out there, and we didn‟t have a lot that first night. I‟m thinking, it was either on the second or third night we were out there, we had some come in and I was on my turn for watch. 25:02 At that time there were just two guys—you had the fire team, but you had two guys in a hole and that was just a foxhole. I was on watch and I was looking out and the enemy shot one round and it hit right in front of me and kicked pebbles and stuff in my face, and cut my face up a little bit, but not bad, and then everybody just unloaded on that one spot that they thought where he was. Then that first night, that was just about it, or second night, then after that it was intermittent mortar attacks and sniping, nothing real serious. 12 �Interviewer: So, you didn’t get sappers trying to come in and blow things up yet or anything like that? No, not then, because there really wasn‟t anything there yet, they hadn‟t even gotten the tents and stuff set up and the runway—the flight line wasn‟t even built yet. 26:06 That was part of our job, during the day we did that and at night we were on guard duty. Interviewer: So, you were actually trying, physically, help build a runway at that point? Yeah, the runway and we used Marshall matting, they call it, and it‟s just big eighteen foot steel sheets and they interlock. Of course the Seabees were out there and they leveled the stuff off and then we went out there put it down and they moved the stuff around for us then. Interviewer: Then how quickly did you get aircraft in? It seems like once we got a big enough section they started bringing stuff in pretty quickly. It was maybe two weeks before we really got the birds coming in. Interviewer: Once the aircraft started coming in did your job switch more to actual maintenance work, or were you still doing a lot of guard duty? I was on guard duty and doing that the whole time I was at Chu Lai, I never did work on any of the planes there. 27:08 They weren‟t flying any operations or anything then. I was there maybe two months and then I got transferred up to Marble Mountain, which was helicopters. Interviewer: Okay, well tell us about that then. First of all where was Marble Mountain? 13 �Marble Mountain is three or four miles, I think, from Da Nang and right on the South China Sea. That base was already set up when I there and they already had the Marshall matting down and there were helicopters there, so I moved in right there, right into the metal shop they call it, and they were doing operations when I got there. Interviewer: How was life there different from what it had been like in Chu Lai? 28:03 It was a little more peaceful and you weren‟t so on edge all the time, at least I wasn‟t. We had a place, a tent, a hardback they call them, we had a place to live, the mess hall was set up, you had three meals a day, and you‟d just get up in the morning and go do your job, it was just pretty much like it was after Vietnam, you get up, go to work and you come home. Interviewer: This was not an area where you were under rocket attack, or mortar attack or things like that? There wasn‟t a lot of that—we did get—we‟d get the probes, of course, and we‟d get people trying to come in through the wire, and once in a while there‟d be two or three mortars come in, but it was never anything serious until like October. 29:08 We got—I think it was October 28th, 29th of 1965, and that‟s when we had quite a few come in and they attacked Marble Mountain, Da Nang, and Chu Lai on the same night. Sappers came in and we lost sixteen aircraft, one corpsman was killed that was sleeping in the aircraft, because he was on standby. I heard later that it was Tab Hunter‟s, the movie star's, brother, and I don‟t know that for a fact. At that time I was on reactionary platoon, so I did my job during the day, and then at night, if anything happened, they‟d call us out. 30:06 After work on the 29th or 28th, whatever it night it was, I went to the club like I 14 �always did because there‟s nothing else to do, so I‟m in there drinking beer and having a good time there and went to bed, and about one o‟clock in the morning they called us out. Mortars were coming in, the siren went off and everybody grabbed their rifle, helmet, and bandolier and you go out and do your job. Interviewer: What happened, or what did you see that night? We had a place we were supposed to meet, and then they told us where to go and there was a group—they told us to go up to the flight line, because we had them coming in through the north wire. 31:00 So, we were heading up there and soon as I got to the flight line I saw several helicopters on fire, of course stuff is still going off, rounds going off, it‟s like watching a John Wayne movie. There were three or four of us running up the flight line going to where we were supposed to go and one of the rockets that was , I don‟t know how it happened, it was either on the bird or in staging, or whatever, but it had lit off and it was shooting down, and I mean, coming at us, We weren‟t in any danger, I didn‟t think because it wasn‟t that close to us, but here comes this rocket shooting down the runway—it was—then I was thinking, “Wow, what is this?” 32:03 Later we were laughing about it, of course. We were running up to our spot and this one corporal that lived in our tent, Corporal Brulet, he was on bunker watch that night and he was yelling at us, “There‟s some over there, there‟s some over there”, and then he opened up with a machine gun and killed three or four of them. We ran up to our flight line to where we were supposed to meet and the VMO squadron was up here, that‟s Huey‟s, I was in 34‟s, H-34‟s, and they said that they were coming, they had been through the wire already, so we got our people out here on bunker watch, but then there‟s people inside the wire and I don‟t know how many they‟d killed then, but they did kill some of the enemy. 15 �33:07 Then we got just grabbed up by somebody else and said, “Were going over here and see what we can see”. Lieutenant Green--Greenway, or something like that anyway, he said, „We‟re going to take some captives, take some alive, so you, you and you setup here”. Well, I jumped—I ran up--we were on the ground and watching in between the tents, and I looked between these two tents and there‟s a VC here and a VC here on the corner of this tent and I pulled up to shoot him and the Lieutenant said, “No, don‟t shoot him, don‟t shoot him”, and about that time I saw a little spark from this guys‟ hand and something hit me in the shoulder. 34:05 It rolled down and I looked and it was a C ration can grenade and it looked to me like a C ration can. They had told us some of the things to expect there, so I yelled, “Grenade”, and rolled over and put my hands over my head. This thing went off and chewed up my right side a little bit, nothing serious, but the pain was unbelievable, but fortunately my rifle took the worst of the hit and it chewed my stock all to pieces, and we were carrying M-14‟s, so that‟s a pretty good stock. It got me in the right side, and it got another guy that was a little ways from me, and he took some in the left arm. Interviewer: Did that finish the fight for you, or did you stay in a while longer? They—I heard somebody yelling for their mother and I was thinking, “What a pansy this guy”, and I found out later it was me. 35:11 I‟d never experienced anything like that, but they did, they dragged me off and the corpsman was right there, and said, “It‟s not serious”, and he threw some bandages on and said, “You stay here”, and about that time the Captain came up and he took my rifle and he went after the guys‟, I guess. Interviewer: As far as you know, did they actually capture any of them? 16 �Yes they did, we did capture two alive, I believe, and they killed--I don‟t know how many were killed, but I was sitting out the rest of the fight pretty much. When it was all over they came, and I got my rifle back and my wounds weren‟t serious, it was—inside the C ration can was flints from a lighter and they were green, so they were Russian flint. 36:10 Plus, there were some other things—I had a few pieces in me, but it was—I could walk and I was still able to move around. Then we were going out, and they sound the all clear and everything was done with. Of course it was daylight then, and they started gathering up the dead and we had four or five wounded, I think, of our guys, and of course the corpsman was killed, but there was a boatload of VC and they were picking them up and putting them on a four by, which is a big truck. Interviewer: How quickly were you back on duty after that? They took me from there, put me on a helicopter and took me to the Charlie med, which was up right near Da Nang. 37:07 They just took out the pieces that they could and bandaged up stuff and said, “Okay, you can go back to your unit”, so it was about three miles, I think, and started walking back to base, there were a couple of us. We got a ride from other units and they just took us back to the base, and when I checked in it was just work as usual. Interviewer: Now, did you have any other incidents, large scale attacks, or was that the one crisis point while you were there? That was the big thing and we did have one later on. I was—like I said before, “All marines are riflemen”. 38:02 So, you do your job during the day, then at night you‟re on guard duty. I was on guard duty, and you get that about every couple months. You get it anywhere from two weeks to thirty days and I was on the listening post every third 17 �night, I think it was. There was another guy, and I can‟t even remember his name, it‟s been a long time, but this was around December, because I remember some people had Christmas trees and things. I used to really enjoy Christmas and after the Christmas of 1965 I never liked it again. I didn‟t want anything to do with Christmas because I really missed being home. 39:00 We were out on the listening post and we had—of course you have a night vision scope and that would take any heat and magnify it. They were nothing like they are today, but back then they called it a Starlight scope and it was quite scientific back then. We had wires out and if any vibration would come on it would light up this board and tell you where movement was. It wouldn‟t tell you what it was, it would just say there was movement, and it had to be—they could put the sensitivity, so they‟d put it like ninety, eighty, ninety pounds, so they figure it would be a human. We had this board and we had a radio that we could radio back with, and one night our board lit up, so we called in and said, “We got possible movement in wire at station---“. I can‟t remember what it was, well then another light went on and pretty soon the whole board lit up. 40:05 I mean, it was lit up and the lights were just flashing, so we knew there was a lot of movement. They lit a flare and there were probably twenty people in the wire, and they had already gotten through the outer wire. Interviewer: The listening post itself, was that inside the wire? That was outside the perimeter of the bunker. Interviewer: But the wire was still beyond— We had two things of wire beyond that, so—but we were the farthest ones out. It lit up and they called us back, of course you‟re whispering you know, and they said, “Keep your head down, they‟re all over out there”, so that‟s what we did and there was shooting 18 �for maybe a half hour or so. 41:00 When it was over they—of course flares are going off the whole time, and if we would have popped our head up it would have been like that little Gopher in those games, pop your head up and somebody is going to stomp on you. Interviewer: So, you just stayed hunkered down? We stayed right down in the bottom because that‟s what they told us to do, so we did that and I can‟t remember how long it was, but it seemed like it took an awful long time, but it probably was no more than ten or fifteen minutes actually. But, then they sounded the all clear and there were a lot of flares going off, when we got up out of the hole they said, “Get up and come back to the bunker line”, and when we did that there was a VC about ten feet from us that had been shot, so he was close to us and fortunately didn‟t see us. They had sapper charges on some of them, but most of them had those old single shot rifles and a couple of them just had sticks. 42:03 But, they dope them up on Opium, or whatever it was and they‟d go at us with anything they had. Interviewer: No, when you were doing your actual maintenance and mechanical work, did you have a lot of battle damage to repair? Did you have a lot of work to do? Yeah, we did, and mainly it was patching bullet holes, because helicopters and 34‟s, they‟re a slow flying thing and ninety five percent of the bullet holes were in the bottom, so what you‟d do is you‟d just drill out that hole and make it bigger and it all depends on where it was on the helicopter, you‟d just put a patch over it, or put a flush patch, which is make the hole bigger, put a piece that fits inside that hole and then put a piece over that and one on the inside and rivet them together. 43:02 19 �Interviewer: Now, were you losing a lot of helicopters shot down, or completely disabled? No, we did, we had a couple that were shot down and lost, but I don‟t think there were that many. You know, after that initial, we lost sixteen helicopters in October and after that I can‟t remember losing, but maybe, one or two that crashed. Interviewer: Did those sixteen get replaced pretty quickly? Yeah, it was just a day or two and we had them come in, because they had them stacked up at Da Nang. Interviewer: Did you get to fly in the helicopters yourself? Once in a while, I‟d just go on like a mail run or a test flight or something, but I was never a crew chief or anything like that, but once in a while we got to fly in them. 44:01 Interviewer: Now, a Marble Mountain, did they have any Vietnamese or civilian personnel there? Yeah, we had quite a few—they worked in the mess hall, they worked in the laundry, the barber shop, we had them doing a lot of things. They‟d work for us during the day and at night some of them were VC sympathizers and they—we did have—our barber cut hair during the day and at night he‟d come in with some others and mark trails. They had little trails through the wire. Interviewer: Now, did he get caught at some point? He was caught and he was shot and killed and he died up in our water tower. They didn‟t find him for two days, but they found he was dead up in the water tower. Then, of course, they had to drain it and clean it and start over again. 45:01 20 �Interviewer: Did they give you much by way of security warnings or tell you what you should or shouldn’t say around the Vietnamese people who came through? We got the Vietnamese etiquette on board ship. They told us that you don‟t touch them on the head, when you‟re sitting you don‟t cross your legs and point the sole of your feet at them, because the sole of your feet is the closest thing to the devil, and if you did that you were, evidently, wishing the devil on them, and if you touched them on the head, the little kids, you weren‟t supposed to do that to little kids, because that was closest to Buddha. Interviewer: In terms of just warning you about some of these people maybe being VC sympathizers, or to be careful what you say around them or anything like that? Yeah, you know that old thing back in WWI or WWII of whatever, you know, “Loose lips sink ships”. 46:07 That old saying, they‟d throw that at us a lot, but you didn‟t know because they all look the same. I mean, we had some that worked for us during the day and we‟d shoot them at night, and that happened, not every night, but that happened a bit. Interviewer: Did you have any Vietnamese military personnel working with you? We did on some of our—we‟d go out on patrols—I got to go on a few patrols. We‟d go down to the orphanage, that was down the beach from us a few miles, and we‟d have a, either South Vietnamese military personnel with us, or a Kit Carson scouts. 47:00 Kit Carson scouts were North Vietnamese, or Vietcong, that had been captured and retrained, repatriotized, or whatever they call it, and they worked for us. A lot of them hated the North Vietnamese. 21 �Interviewer: While you were there, did you have much of a sense of the larger political picture of what was going on, or were you just kind of there to do a job and do what they told you? Pretty much, I was there to do what I was told to do and get back home. Interviewer: What impression did you have of your enemy at that point, what did you think of them? Kill him before he kills us and that was pretty much it. Interviewer: About how long then did you stay at Marble Mountain? I was probably at Marble Mountain about ten months. 48:01 Interviewer: During that time did you get any leave time or R&R, or anything like that? I was—Yeah, I did—I was to—I got my R&R, rest and relaxation, but that‟s not what we called it, we called it I&I. I had picked Hong Kong, so I got to go to Hong Kong for five days and that was inebriation for five days, that‟s what that was. Interviewer: What was it like to go back after that? It‟s like coming back home, you know, I felt comfortable in that combat situation. When we were in Hong Kong, when I would sober up, I was afraid. 49:03 I‟d always look, you know—when I was sober the first thing in the morning I‟d go into a bar, I‟d walk in off the street and immediately go left or right, put my back against the wall, and wait until my eyes adjusted before I went in, and then I would sit against the wall so I could see the doors. Interviewer: So you’d absorbed a certain amount of what you had to do to survive where you were. 22 �Yeah Interviewer: In general, how would you characterize the morale on the base while you were there? We were pretty much “gung ho”, everybody knew they had a job to do and we were told we were saving Vietnam from communism, and the guys were ready to do their job and you would always watch somebody else‟s back. 50:05 That‟s the one thing that I truly loved about the Marine Corps, somebody was always watching your back. That was really instilled in me, just even in that short time that I was in, so far less than a year. Interviewer: Some of the sort of stereotypes about the Vietnam experience includes issues like racial tension, or drug use or other things like that. Was there really much of a discipline problem where you were? Not in the beginning, after a while it got to be—because there was a lot of stuff going on back in the states, racial things were going on, so it got to be that way there also. Of course, you got your cliques—the black guys had their own things and white guys would stay over here and there was a lot of racial tension toward the end of my first tour. 51:15 Interviewer: Now, would that boil over into fights? Oh yeah, there were fights, there were some stabbings, there were shootings on both sides, and I never got into any of it because I was pretty much—I had some—I grew up, went through school, my whole time in school was a mix. Interviewer: Muskegon Heights was one of the first places where you had a large black population in that area. 23 �Yeah, so I grew up in that and I just—I never had any problems. I knew some guys that did, because they came out of the Midwest, or something, that didn‟t have a significant black population and there were some troubles. 52:04 Interviewer: Were their southern whites there as well? Yeah, and they were—they had the rebel flag up and they were told to take it down. They took it down from outside, but they had it up inside and there was a lot of that. Some areas—it‟s like the base—it‟s like a little city, there‟s some places—just like Grand Rapids, there‟s some places a white person doesn‟t want walk and there‟s some places that black people will kind of shy away from, and it was the same there. You didn‟t go into certain sections of the tent unit. Interviewer: How much of an effort did the officers, or leadership, make to deal with this and control it? Oh, they tried, they tried to do a lot of things, but it just never seemed to—nothing ever worked. 53:01 The only way you could do it is you try to figure out the ringleaders, the heads of it, and transfer them out, and that happened quite a bit. Interviewer: Were there problems with things like drug use or was it too early for that yet? I never saw it, but I talked to some people that were there with me, later in years, and then I found out that there was some heavy duty drug use there. I knew some guys that did it, we went—we use to play a lot of cards and we were playing cards and these were in there smoking marijuana. I didn‟t know what it was, it wasn‟t anywhere around when I was in school. I didn‟t know what the stuff was and I didn‟t want anything to do with it. I smoked cigarettes, but I didn‟t want that, but I drank and my big thing was beer, I love 24 �beer. 54:06 I would drink the beer, but you‟d get that contact high in the tent and that was enough for me, but I never did any of the hard stuff, injections, I never would do that. Interviewer: As you got toward the end of your thirteen months there, were you kind of counting down the days to get out at that point? Oh yeah, you get your short timers calendar after—at a hundred days left, and what these are is just a drawing of something. Ninety percent of the time it‟s a naked woman and you color it in the spots, the numbers, starting from ninety nine on down and once you get down to a few days, the shorter you get then you come out with the sayings, “I‟m so short I‟ve got to climb on a ladder to get to the mess hall”, or a lot of silly things. 55:15 Interviewer: One of the things that went on a lot in Vietnam later on when they had a regular system of troop rotation, and guys come and go as individuals, but you had gone in pretty much as a unit initially? Yeah, we went in as a unit, but when we got to Chu Lai then we kind of dispersed and went out to other air stations. Some guys went up to Phu Bai , Marble Mountain and that, so we were leaving at the end of our thirteen months, we were leaving by ourselves and going back home. Interviewer: So you are all on separate schedules and things, not all picking up and going at the same time at that point? Yes Interviewer: Did your duties change at all as you got toward the very end of your tour? Did they pull you off of certain things, or did you just keep doing the same thing the whole time? 56:04 25 �They kept us on the same—we were on the same thing. Some of the guys would say, “I‟ve got five days left, I don‟t need to go out on guard duty”. Well, you‟ve got a limited amount of people, so some guys had to. Two days before I left I had bunker watch and that was just—that was my job, so I did it. Interviewer: Now, were you having new men transferred in while you were there? Yeah, it was constant; there were people going and people coming all the time. Interviewer: Did you have a responsibility to orient the new men and things like that? Was that part of what you did? Not so much, because we—in the metal shop we were a pretty close knit group and all of us had just about the same amount of time, so when one guy left it wasn‟t very long that somebody else would come in and somebody else would leave, so that change, I didn‟t really see that because I was one of the first ones to go. 57:11 Interviewer: Once you do finish that tour, then where do you get sent? They sent me back to the states. I got in California and they said, “You got thirty days leave and then you‟re to report to your next duty station”, and mine was going to be Cherry Point, North Carolina, fixed wing aircraft. So, I went back to Muskegon for my leave and I left early, I didn‟t stay my whole thirty days, I couldn‟t take that undisciplined life, it was too hard on me. 58:00 It was a real shock when I got—when I left California it was beautiful California, short sleeve shirts and I had on my short sleeve uniform, got to Chicago and in the middle of a blizzard. I‟ve got on my green uniform, the wool pants, but just a cotton short sleeved shirt and it is cold, and that‟s about all I really got. Fortunately I had my big heavy horse coat in the bottom of my seabag, so I did dig that out in Chicago. I flew into Muskegon, got off the plane in Muskegon and it‟s not too 26 �bad. It was cold, but didn‟t have a whole lot of snow. It was early in the morning, five o‟clock, or something like that, in the morning and I called a cab to go home. 59:04 I didn‟t want to bother my parents, they didn‟t know I was coming home. I called them when I was in California and said, “I‟ll be home when I get there”, because I was having a hard time adjusting to civilian, or not civilian life, but not in a combat situation. I was having a hard time. I got off the plane, called a cab, and I‟m standing there outside waiting for the cab and he pulled up and I‟m in my uniform and he flipped me “the bird” and drove off, so he was a Vietnam protester. Interviewer: That’s only like 1966. That was 1966, so I said, “Well, I guess I‟ll walk”, so I started walking from--I lived on the north side of Mona Lake and the airport is on the south side of Mona lake, and it‟s maybe three or four miles around, so I just started walking home. 00:12 I walked out to the main road, which is Airport Road and some guy was coming by and stopped and gave me a ride, and took me right to my house. Interviewer: That kind of balanced out the cab driver a little bit. Yeah, it was an older guy and he was going to work, you know. I can‟t even remember now, our conversation or anything, but he took me right to my house and I got out of his car and thanked him for the ride. I walked up and looked up, I was standing in the middle of the road looking at my house and the drapes opened up and there was my mother standing in the window. And of course then it‟s, “Everybody get up, David‟s home”, and that was pretty nice. Interviewer: But you weren’t all that comfortable staying there then once you got home? 27 �No, I loved my family and I missed them the time I was gone, but I also loved my brothers still in Vietnam. 1:13 I didn‟t want to leave them in that situation, so I was having a hard time. I felt guilty about leaving and I‟ve talked to a lot of guys since and a lot of guys had that. They felt guilty about leaving “Nam”. After the first couple of days of seeing family and friends and that, I kind of got back into going to the bar at night. The VFW, of course, you‟d have to go to the club with my dad, he belonged to the Muskegon Heights Eagles, so I had to do that and do that route, and VFW‟s, everybody had things for vets. 2:05 You could go in and get a couple of free beers. I did all that, then I hung around a lot with my friends too and did a lot of drinking and would search out the “Nam” vets, and that‟s the only people that I would really talk to. Of course, you didn‟t say anything to anybody else about anything that happened in “Nam”. They just didn‟t understand it, or they were against what you did, even back then. It was worse the second time I came back. Still in 1966 there were a lot of protesters and “baby killers” talk even then. It got worse in 1968 and 1969, but it was bad enough in 1966. Interviewer: So, you’re not entirely comfortable back in civilian life. Do you still have a lot of the reflexes from being in Vietnam? 3:03 Oh yeah, I did, anywhere we went—I‟d—going from sunlight into a building, I‟d still, I‟d walk in and I‟d go left to right and put my back to the wall and stay there until my eyes adjusted. It didn‟t matter where I went, I did it—my grandparents, my dad‟s folks, lived two blocks from us and I went up to them and when I walked into their garage, I stood in the garage until my eyes adjusted, and my grandma‟s standing up there saying, “What‟s the matter?” I said, “I‟m just waiting for my eyes to adjust grandma”. I had nothing to fear, but in the back of your mind it was there. 28 �Interviewer: So, how early did you wind up going back then? This was 1966, I went to Cherry Point, North Carolina working on—we started out with A-4‟s and after about three or four weeks, then they brought in the A-6‟s to us, which was the new-- 4:11 Interviewer: Ground attack aircraft? Yeah, they were a bomber type aircraft. That was 1966 and I met a girl there and we got—we were married in 1968, and then I reenlisted. She didn‟t want me to, but I said, “Yeah, it‟s a—I love the Marine Corps”, so we reenlisted in 1968 and I got transferred from there—I was hoping to stay at Cherry Point, because I did like North Carolina, because I‟m a big—I love fishing and hunting and there was a lot of fishing there, so I liked that. 5:00 I got transferred to California and we got out to California and we were there, it wasn‟t long, just two or three months and they cut orders that the unit was going back to Vietnam. I was in fixed wing out there and I found out my wife was pregnant and they sent me—I brought her back to North Carolina and I flew back out to California. We loaded the ship up and away we went. Interviewer: Where did they send you to in Vietnam this time? I went right back to Chu Lai. We put all out stuff on board the ship and they left off while I was—they kept three or four of us, they kept us back to finish up packing and stuff. 6:04 We flew over in a “big mac”, big plane, huge plane, we had all our gear and everything in there. Interviewer: Was it a military transport? It was a military transport plane, almost like a C-5 Galaxy, this thing it was big, just might be three quarters the size of C-5, but it was a big plane. There were three or four of 29 �us in there and we flew from California to some other spot on the west coast, I can‟t remember now where it was, but we refueled, or picked up some more stuff, or something, and then we flew to Guam and refueled in Guam. Of course, it was an air force base, so we ate very well, the air force eats good. 7:02 We weren‟t there very long, maybe four or five hours, just long enough to take on fuel or whatever else we had, and we flew from there right into Chu Lai. Interviewer: Now, was Chu Lai a different place this time? Chu Lai was like it was when I came back home to Muskegon after several years. The change was amazing. Here‟s this—it was a metropolis, I mean it looked like a regular— it looked like the Gerald R. Ford Airport, you got a big flight line, big buildings up everywhere, and then behind them then you‟re in the tents, but it was huge coming over it. Of course, I was there before there was anything in 1965, and here I am back there again in 1969 and seeing it from the air I‟m thinking, “Wow, this is amazing, look at all this stuff‟. 8:06 We landed and getting out of the plane--there was some new guys on the plane, I guess we‟d picked up somewhere, three or four new guys, and they got off and of course, if you‟ve ever seen the movie “Platoon”, you see the guys marching out and Charlie Sheen‟s coming in and these other guys that had been there are going out and that thousand yard stare, you know, you see that. The smell, you don‟t forget that smell. I smelled it in 1965 and thought, “What is this?” The whole country smelled like that and it just smelled like garbage. It smelled like a landfill, the whole country smells like that. 9:04 Except probably some of the bigger cities are pretty nice, but that just—when I got off the plane that hit me again and then it was back and it felt okay. The heat and humidity, you take that first breath after that air conditioning and that catches you. These 30 �new guys got off the plane and they‟re all wide eyed looking all around, and there was a rocket attack and it was coming down the runway, and there was two or three rockets that hit and that was old hat, I was a salt, I‟d been there, so it didn‟t bother me, I‟m just standing there watching the rockets and some people are running for the bunkers. I looked up and here‟s the Captain from the Captain from California saying—by then I was a sergeant, and he said, “Sergeant Christian come over here”. 10:09 He had a six pack, so we‟re sitting there drinking beer watching the rocket attack and watching all the other people scurry around, and I‟m just—it happened almost every day, they‟d rocket the runway after a plane would come in or before it would take off, and they hardly ever hit anything. Interviewer: Kind of harassment fire? Yeah, it was harassment and interdiction, they call it. Interviewer: Now, this time around, were your duties just largely working on the aircraft now? Yeah, I was higher in rank, so I was in charge of the metal shop, instead of—I told the people what to do rather than them telling me, but I still had my other duties. I now was a sergeant, so I was in charge of the bunker line instead of just being on watch. 11:03 I‟d do my job during the day and at night I‟d go out to the bunker line and do what I was supposed to do out there. Interviewer: But they’re still using men from the metal shop and other kind of services, they’re still using them on the line? Yes, everybody had not only their main job, but they also had something else. If you weren‟t on mess duty, and that‟s—I don‟t care how long you‟re in the Marine Corps, 31 �you‟re still going to get mess duty, until you get up higher in rank you‟re still going to have other jobs to do. Interviewer: One other thing that gets said a lot about Vietnam is for every guy that’s out there actually in a line unit fighting, you got fifteen or twenty doing other stuff, but the division between the grunts who were out there all the time on the ground and everybody else is not always that simple. If you’re pulling guard duty on a regular basis, you’re manning a perimeter and things like that; you encounter some of the same things. 12:06 Not the physical wear and tear that you get from stomping around in the jungle all the time, but still a fair amount of that stuff comes up. Oh yeah, we‟d go on patrols every now and then, but we did a lot of—they were back in 1969 and 70, they were doing a lot of this—trying to help instead of just flat out trying to kill, and so we‟d go into villages and we‟d go on these medical things where the doctor would go in and help some of the people, but then the ones on patrol, we‟d have to set up the perimeter and we were just like guard duty, but we got to go some things, it was—we never encountered any main line forces or anything. 13:03 We‟d get a little sniper, or something, or going down a trail and finding a booby trap, but it was not like the guys from the bush. I talked to quite a few after I got out of the Marine Corps and joined the Vietnam Veterans of America chapter in Muskegon, and then I got to talk to a lot of guys that their thirteen months was in the bush and I mean--that‟s horrible. “Platoon”, the movie “Platoon” is the closest you‟re ever going to get to being real. That was so close, and since than they‟ve come out with “Saving Private Ryan” and “Full Metal Jacket”, and those are—they‟re close, but “Platoon” was right on. 14:02 32 �Interviewer: The physical conditions and circumstances? The whole everything, the whole aspect of it—“Platoon” was real. They had a special screening for Vietnam vets at the Michigan Theater in Muskegon and some of the guys— I didn‟t see the whole thing, I had to leave, but some of the guys, after the first ten minutes, were gone. I think I lasted about a half hour and I just had to get out of there because all that stuff just came back. Interviewer: It also, was a film with an apparently strong political message and you wind up with the fighting between the sergeants killing each other and all that kind of thing. There are a fair number of Vietnam vets who really don’t like that movie. Oh yeah, oh yeah, there‟s a lot that absolutely refused to see it and probably haven‟t seen it yet today because they were so much against what went on there. 15:00 Interviewer: But, on the other side of it, there are, also, some that think it’s sort of an unfair depiction of the characterization of the soldiers and all the rest of that kind thing, so there’s that side of that as well, but the part of it that you saw, as far as you can tell, they had basically gotten it right? Oh, they got it right, they hit that right on—Oliver Stone got that right on the money. Interviewer: Now, your physical circumstances at Chu Lai, at this point now, are relatively good. Were you living in tents at this point? We had what they call hard back tents. Still the same thing, but they‟d have a metal roof, sides, you had mosquito netting all the way around it, we had—the tent that I was in, we had an old parachute, because we had a mixed group in our tent. 16:00 There were seven or eight of us, corporal, sergeant, some that worked in the paraloft, some that worked in supply, so we had—ours was pretty nice, and we had an old parachute up on 33 �the roof, we had three or four fans, but we had air moving, we had a refrigerator, we had a TV, We went out and requisitioned a bar that was made for the first sergeant, and it was nice burnt wood with Naugahyde rails, we had that in there, we stole that and put that in, as a matter of fact, we had two refrigerators, one was all beer and then the other one was liquor and sodas. So, that was pretty nice, rather than having to go to the club, we just would go to our own tent and watch TV. 17:08 The old reruns of Batman, well, they were not reruns, but Batman. Interviewer: In those days there were not many reruns. So, the armed forces provided television? Armed Forces Radio had the TV and the radio, a lot of programing. Interviewer: I couldn’t think there would be a whole lot of Vietnamese programing to watch. No, I don‟t ever remember watching anything. I don‟t even know if they had anything. Interviewer: By Chu Lai, anyway—now, aside from the fact that the base was just now a lot bigger, what else was different about being at Chu Lai the second time from the first? You’re in a better position than you were and in terms of just what was going on, what kinds of missions were being flown, or anything else like that? They flew a lot of sorties, we were—what was it we had then? 18:04 F-8‟s maybe, I think, F-9‟s, Phantom jets, so they did a lot of bombing runs, you know, all over. Mostly when they‟d come back, they were too damaged for us to mess with, so we‟d get them enough to where they could either fly or crane them out , or whatever there was, aboard ship and they‟d take them somewhere else and have them fixed. We would, I can remember a couple times, putting in new supports for the strut, because when they‟d 34 �come in and land, it would be a hard landing, or something, and that was mainly it. Not a whole lot of bullet holes this time, but when they were, they were big, because of antiaircraft fire, big guns. 19:03 Mainly it would be structural damage, not bullet holes. Interviewer: Did you have—this time did you have more Vietnamese people on the base than you had the first time? Yeah, there were—it was like a little city there. You could go—they had a PX then, you could go in and it was fairly large, with all kinds of stuff that you could buy. There was a little cafeteria all the time and you could go in and get things you wanted, and, of course, there‟s the clubs, so you had beer and you could get whatever you wanted. They had a barber shop, and there was quite a bit. You could walk around in relative safety, and there were some things to do. 20:02 At night you‟d have the outdoor theater. You could get popcorn, just like this, you‟re sitting on the beach all relaxed watching a movie. Interviewer: And you’re not in this phase getting sapper attacks or things like that? Not at Chu Lai that I can remember. It was mainly rockets and mortars, and mainly rockets, because Chu Lai, it was a long way from the mountains, so they used rockets and that was mainly it, but usually it would be four or five rockets and that was it, because it—once they‟d light off the first one, of course we had spotters all around the place and they‟d spot them and then right away you‟d have outgoing fire. They‟d call in support from the South China Sea, plus planes would fly off, and they‟d go out, so they would only do two or three shots and that was it, they quit. 21:02 Interviewer: Now, was the morale situation different than it was before, or was it pretty much like it was when you’d been at Marble Mountain at the end? 35 �Probably pretty much the same, and you still had the cliques, and there was still some racial tension, but on the main part, everybody seemed to get along. Everybody knew you‟re there to do a job and do your time and get out. Interviewer: Was there a sense among most of the personnel whether it was even important to do the job well, or would that vary? That would vary, you know, some guys—I wasn‟t—I‟m not a real political person and I looked at it, “This is my job and I‟m here to do the job as best I can and get out”, and that‟s how I was raised, you do the job the best you can with what you have. 22:04 That‟s what I did, I tried to do the best that I could with what I had, with what time I had left to do it in. There were some guys that were political. They said, “I‟m not picking up a weapon, I don‟t care what they say”, and I‟d say, “What if he‟s got one pointed at you, what are you going to do? Are you going to shoot him or are you going to take it?” “Well, I guess I‟ll get shot”, and I said, “Well I guess you will, because if you‟re that stupid, take it”. I wouldn‟t do that. Interviewer: Would those guys resist doing guard duty, or things like that? Oh yeah, we had guys go to LBJ, Long Binh Jail, for—they‟d refuse to pick up their weapon. Some of them would go on guard duty, but they wouldn‟t pull their post, so whoever‟s in charge—I had to write up a couple guys, so they got busted and sent to jail, but that was part of it. 23:05 Interviewer: Now, did you spend your whole second tour at Chu Lai or did you go anywhere else? We were in Chu Lai for six or seven months and in 1970 they were starting the pull out and we were one of the first air units to go in, so we were one of the first units to leave, 36 �so they sent us up to Iwakuni, Japan as a unit. I was on the forward unit, so I went there, probably, a month before everyone else to help get things set up. Interviewer: What part of Japan is Iwakuni, in? Iwakuni is in Honshu Province? Interviewer: Honshu’s the main island. Honshu‟s the main island and we were south of Hiroshima, probably a hundred miles south, I guess. 24:01 Interviewer: Far south on the island and south of Tokyo and all of that. Yeah Interviewer: What kind of facility was there? It‟s all barracks like any Marine Corps base, you know, it was hardcore barracks, a big cement flight line, a concrete flight line, you had big rooms for the shops that were all set up. It was pretty nice, we had a big metal shop and everything was—everything we needed was there. Interviewer: What kind of work did you have to do there? It was mainly going to be the same thing. We‟d—any planes they couldn‟t fix in Vietnam they‟d send to us and we‟d pull the—do whatever we had to do to get them back over to Vietnam. Interviewer: You were doing things that you couldn’t do back at Chu Lai? Yeah, we had—at Chu Lai we didn‟t have a lot of the big things that we needed to bend the metal. We‟d do it, we had small brakes, they call it, that bend metal. 25:02 In Japan we had three or four different brakes and some hydraulically operated to bend the heavy metals to make struts or frames or whatever it was. 37 �Interviewer: What was it like to be outside of a combat zone again? That took me some adjusting, you know, and the not listening for the warnings. All the time I was in “Nam” I‟d—if you ever watch M.A.S.H., Radar always knew something was going on before anybody else. I knew when something was coming in most of the time before anybody else, just something that I could hear or sense or whatever it was. I was always on alert, always on guard, listening for something. 26:00 Watching, I‟d always look down at my feet when I‟d walk anywhere looking for booby traps, and I never spent that much time in the bush, but when I did, I‟d focus in front of me, so I still had that. Interviewer: Did you, pretty much, spend all your time on the base, or did you get out? Oh no, I‟d—8 to 4:30, whatever time my shift was, I‟d—I don‟t remember that now, but back to the barracks, take a shower and put on civilian clothes and hit the town. Iwakuni, on the—coming out the main gate there‟s bars on both sides of the road and I‟d hit them all until I found one that I really liked and then I started going to that one. I went to, probably every bar in Iwakuni. Interviewer: What kind of a relationship was there between the American servicemen there and the Japanese civilians? On the most part they really enjoyed us being there. 27:06 They were always polite, but there were some that didn‟t want us there. They‟d be outside the gate, or the gate and the fence line with signs, “American Go Home”, but I can‟t ever remember any physical confrontations or anything with the Japanese, they‟re just very gracious people, and I enjoyed it. 38 �Interviewer: Did the marine MP’s make sure the servicemen behaved? Oh yeah, we had MP‟s, had Navy Shore Patrol, plus we‟d have marines—I pulled MP duty a while when I was in Japan. You walk around and you kind of just corral the drunks and make sure they get back to base okay. 28:04 We had to break up a few fights and then there‟s just the regular—we were cops, that‟s all it was, peace keepers mainly. Interviewer: Then how long did you stay in Japan? We were in Japan for the rest of our thirteen months tour, and that was either six or seven months, I can‟t remember exactly, but then we left Japan and that was in 1970 and I went to New River, North Carolina, right next to Jacksonville, Camp Lejeune, I was at the air station there. I worked on—what did we have? 29:01 We had—there were helicopters and fixed wing there. Interviewer: Were you able to make that adjustment fairly easily? Yeah, I did and I got back with—I was married and we had—my son was born when I was in Vietnam, so he wasn‟t quite a year old, almost a year old. I got back and we bought a—instead of living on base we bought a mobile home and lived in that, and then it was just like a nine to five job. I did my job, came home and lived family life. Interviewer: Now was there another group of men on base, working with you, that had all gone to Vietnam by then? 30:01 There weren‟t a lot--there weren‟t a lot of “Nam” vets. There were the older ones that were. I was the sergeant, and my staff sergeant had been to Vietnam, the gunnery sergeant, and first sergeant, they had all been to Vietnam, but a lot of the younger guys 39 �hadn‟t been anywhere yet. Most of them had been in the Marine Corps less than two years, so they hadn‟t been there yet. Interviewer: Did you feel there was kind of a gap or separation between the ones that had been there and the others that hadn’t? Oh yeah, yeah, “Nam” vets knew each other and even today I can walk down the street and I can tell pretty much all the time if somebody‟s been to “Nam” or not, and it‟s just a brotherhood. We know who our brothers are. Interviewer: How long then did you stay there? 31:04 I stayed there until 1972, and then they sent me to drill instructors school down at Parris Island, South Carolina. I went through drill instructors school and made it through that and worked three or four platoons at Parris Island before I was relieved of duty. Interviewer: Was it fine with you, at that point, that you were relieved of duty or did you want to stay in longer? I wanted to stay. I loved drill instructor, I loved it, you got power, and you‟re the boss of everything. That was an experience, you know, and I hated my drill instructor when I was going through boot camp, and he was relieved of duty. 32:04 He got malpractice, he and a couple of them got—for force, so they were relieved. Interviewer: Was it possible for a drill instructor to go over the limit? Oh yeah, I mean, yeah, this was before—you could hit them, you could get in their face and yell at them and call them names, that was all part of it, That‟s the thing, you take somebody out of civilian life and you change them completely, physically and mentally. Of course some of them—when I went in it was mainly high school kids, or hadn‟t finished high school. When I was a drill instructor a lot of the guys were college people. 40 �33:04 So, they knew what was happening, they had things figured out. They knew why the drill instructors were doing some things. Calling them names, yelling, they knew all about it, so they had a heads up on it from when I was a recruit. Interviewer: Were you a kinder, gentler drill sergeant than the ones that you had, or did you do pretty much the same thing they did? No, I was much more physical than ours was. My first platoon that I worked, of course I was a junior drill instructor and we had senior drill instructor and he was a staff sergeant, and he said, “What we‟re going to do is, each of you guys pick out the biggest guy you can see and you beat him down”, and then, I was in great shape and I could. 34:07 I was strong, I knew a lot of things, I could take somebody down, so I picked out the biggest guy—and I was a small person, I wasn‟t big, but I was fit, so I picked that big guy and got in his face a lot until he got to the point where, “I‟m going to fight back”, and when he did, I took him down, and after that I had no problems with anybody, after that. So, that‟s what I was taught—to do that—and that‟s what I did, and I did that in every platoon that I worked. Interviewer: Did that eventually cause problems for you? Yeah, it did, the last platoon that I worked—we graduated two platoons, took them all the way through. 35:00 The third platoon I worked—I can‟t remember now exactly what it was, some situation going on somewhere else where they had to move a couple of us to another platoon, so I got pulled out of that third platoon and started another, and the sergeant that came with me—we had this one recruit, well we had two that were problems right off the bat and we knew they were going to be problems. Private Baker was one of them and I‟ll never forget that kid. He was overweight, slovenly, lazy, a little 41 �mama‟s boy, so we just—we never were physical with him. 36:02 We took this guy from a sane intelligent person and made him nuts. We had him believing he was seeing space ships and, I mean, we just—we had a lot of fun with Private Baker. We made a little Sergeant Spandau, made a little space ship and hooked lights on this thing and I can‟t remember now how we did it, but we had lights hooked on this and we had a wire that went from the top of the barracks, down across our windows in the drill instructors room, and went right down alongside the windows, passed by Baker‟s bunk. We‟d send that thing down lit up and it would be down in there swinging in the breeze and we‟d stop it at Private Baker‟s window and then go and wake him up. 37:04 “Baker, look at that”, and he went nuts. He was in the psych ward for a while and then they released him and gave him a medical discharge. Another one we had, he was from New York, and he was a mouthy kid, so we were physical with him, but he made it through. He was tougher than what we thought and at the end, we were really hard on him, harder than anybody else, but he made it through and at the end he came up and thanked us both and whether he meant it or not, I don‟t know. I think his name was Pardo or something like that, a New York kid. Interviewer: Was that your last group that you worked with? 38:02 Then it wasn‟t long after that, after the Baker incident—I didn‟t get to graduate that platoon, as a matter of fact, our whole company got relieved, but it went from the Captain on down, everybody, our whole company was relieved for mistreatment. We were heavy handed and it caught up with all of us, the whole company was relieved, and for punishment they sent me to work out at the boat basin driving the General‟s boat, which I absolutely loved. A twenty-eight foot boat with two Grady-White diesels on it, it was a 42 �nice machine, so I want fishing every day until I got transferred to Quantico, Virginia and that was my last duty station, at Quantico. 39:05 I was supposed to go the HMX-1, which is the presidential helicopter squadron because back when I was in Vietnam the first time, in 1965, they‟d done a security check on me and I had a final sop secret security clearance for some reason. To this day I don‟t know why I had that clearance. Since I was supposed to go to HMX-1, instead I went to HMM-263, which was right next door and which was CNI helicopters, the twin rotor blades. I went there until September of 1974. Interviewer: At that point, basically, they’re—were they not letting you reenlist, or were you deciding just not to? 40:01 No, I had decided, I wanted to reenlist; I wanted to stay until I died. I absolutely loved the Marine Corps. My wife, at the time, said “If you reenlist again, I‟m gone”, because her father had been in the navy and the army, retired, and had worked at Cherry Point, North Carolina for thirty some years, so she‟s been in Morehead City, North Carolina, and Morehead City is a lot of military, because Cherry Point is sixteen miles away., so she‟d been around the military a lot and she didn‟t want any more of it. So, I said, “Well, okay”, so I got out and went to work for—we stayed in Morehead City, actually near Jacksonville, in between Jacksonville and Morehead City, and I went to work for the Department of Transportation, North Carolina, driving a truck, road maintenance, pretty mundane stuff. 41:10 Interviewer: How long did you stick with that? Well, we were there, maybe, about a year and a guy that I was working with was moving from there to Detroit and I said, “Detroit, Muskegon, two hundred miles”, and I said, “I‟ll 43 �help you move your stuff to Detroit and I‟ll go home”, so I did that, I moved him to Detroit, dropped his stuff off and I came to Muskegon and never left. We were up here, maybe, a week and I said, “I‟m not going back”, so I called my wife and said, “You know, sell the house, we‟re moving up here”, and I drove my truck to Detroit and let this guy take my truck back and he gave it to my wife and I got a job in Muskegon. 42:10 Interviewer: What kind of work were you doing there? I was working at the chemical plant making, modeling anti-freeze windshield washer solvent and thing. I did that for a while until I found a little better job, and I went to work for a company that made display cases for stores, glass display cases. I went to work for them and I worked there, then I went down and got my wife and by then she‟d had another, had a daughter, so we had two kids. We got them and moved them up to Muskegon Heights, and I just worked. 43:07 Interviewer: Stayed in Michigan? I stayed there until 1980, and then I went to work for the post office in Muskegon. I stayed there, I think, in—I think I went to work for the post office in 1978 or 1979, and then we started having marital problems and separated, got a divorce, she moved back to North Carolina and took the kids. I met another lady at the post office and we got married and had a daughter. 44:05 Having post-traumatic stress, I was still having that and I had a lot of flashbacks. I was still doing a lot of drinking and that marriage didn‟t work out either. I got transferred from Muskegon to Grand Rapids and worked at the post office here, divorced, I met a lady there and we got married in—we‟ve been married twenty-one years now. Interviewer: You still got the ring, so that one worked. 44 �That one worked Interviewer: Tell me a little bit about what it was like to be military personnel back in the states in the early seventies. When you got back, to what extent did you encounter anti-war or anti-military sentiments? Oh, there was a lot of that. 45:01 The only safe place you could go was to the VFW, American Legion, or someplace where Nam vets hung out, that was the safest place to go. Otherwise, any other bar that I went to there would be somebody in there—of course then, Vietnam was on TV every night, I mean, every night and a lot of people protesting, and there were some confrontations. I had some problems with that and a couple of times—someone would say something derogatory about what was going on, on TV, and it didn‟t matter if I was the only Nam vet there or if there were two or three of us, it didn‟t matter, we were in the guys face, and there was some police involvement a few times. 46:02 Interviewer: Did you talk to your family at all about this stuff? No, no, the only one I could talk to was my dad, and he‟d never told me a whole lot about his time in the service. He shot down a Japanese Zero. He was a belly gunner on a B-24, I think, and he‟d seen combat and he‟s lost some friends, so he knew a little about combat. He never talked to me much about it and the only time I ever heard anything about his time in the service was when we‟d go see some of his friends that were in and then they‟d have a few drinks and alcohol loosens things up, and, of course, I was always right there. 47:00 I could hear some of the things that happened, and it was probably the same with me, I wouldn‟t tell anybody, I didn‟t tell my parents any of the things I did until in, what was it, 80? I got sent to—I had to go to Battle Creek for a while, PTSD got 45 �a hold of me and my parents came and visited one time and I had—going through that training you had to tell some things to get out. Before, the only times I could tell anybody would be another Nam vet, so they knew, and it was all Nam vets that were in this class, of course the instructors weren‟t, they were civilians. 48:00 It was hard to tell them that, but they keep at you and keep at you, keep at you, so you finally would, so then, finally, I could say some things to non Nam vets. I was telling my folks, one day, some things and my mother started crying and she said, “You never told me that, I didn‟t know”, and I said, “I didn‟t want to tell you that, mom”, and I couldn‟t. Interviewer: Now, you mentioned, before we started the interview, there was an occasion when you actually went back to Muskegon and visited your old high school a few years afterwards? I did, and this was—I can‟t remember, but I think I was home on leave in between one of my duties, and I‟d just gone in to see some of my teachers and, of course, the principal was still there, Mr. Kruizinga. 49:03 He asked me if I‟d talk to the senior class and he said that it was coming up that they were going to have the recruiters come in, and when they did, I went there when the recruiters were there and, of course, they wanted me in my uniform, so I did that, and I went in and I talked to the senior class and then I had some medals and these, and the kids were impressed, they‟re easily impressed. I didn‟t go into any big detail, because I still couldn‟t—that was before I‟d been to Battle Creek, so I couldn‟t say many things, but I told them a little bit. 50:01 The first question they asked was “Did you kill anybody?” I just said, “Well, I shot at somebody, but it wasn‟t confirmed”, and I left it at that. Interviewer: Is that an experience you decided not to repeat? 46 �Yeah, I couldn‟t—I could never really talk about it—we did to other Nam vets, but only after a few beers. I still couldn‟t do it, if I was dead sober, I couldn‟t do it, I couldn‟t say anything about what I had done, but once the beer started flowing a little, and a couple shots, then it gets even easier, and they‟d say the same things, and then it would start with how many were there, “I got two”, “Well I only got one”, so it was like that. 51:03 Interviewer: All right, if you look back at the time you spent in the Marine Corps, and so forth, do you have kind of a balance sheet of kind of the positive and the negative? What kind of effect and you mentioned some of the effects it had on you, and on the whole, was the experience more positive than negative, or how would you characterize it? Oh, it was definitely positive; the Marine Corps made me a man. They wrote an article about me, after I was wounded, in the Muskegon Chronicle and it said, “A boy becomes a man fast at nineteen”, and I did, I grew up quick going from the Midwest, comfortable, no cares, no worries about anything, civilian life, going through boot camp, learning some things and then going to Vietnam when I was nineteen years old and getting shot at, getting hit, it changes you. 52:11 I saw the world in a different perspective. There are people out there that actually want to kill me, so I have to kill them or be killed myself and that‟s just the way it was and it‟s—I carry that yet today. I wouldn‟t hesitate, somebody go to kill me, if I can take him out--I‟m going to. But, I love the Marine Corps, I loved the discipline, I loved the structure, everything in a certain order, I love that and I‟ve tried to do that throughout my life. It worked fairly well with my first wife, but now I‟ve gotten softer in my old age and things are different. 53:05 But, I still—I like to have order. 47 �Interviewer: Are there individuals, or incidents, or things that kind of stand out in your mind that you haven’t mentioned yet that you’re willing to add to the record or have you covered things pretty well as far as you’re concerned? I‟ve covered things pretty well I believe. There‟s some things that I‟ve done that I‟m not proud of that I still won‟t talk about to anybody, I don‟t care who it is, I won‟t, but I think pretty much we covered it. Interviewer: Well, we’ve gone the better part of two hours; you’ve covered quite a bit and done a great job of it, so thank you very much for coming in and talking to us. Well thank you, I certainly enjoyed it. 54:0 48 �49 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Christian, David (Interview transcript and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Christian, David Description An account of the resource David Christian was born in 1946 in Muskegon Heights, Michigan. After completing high school there in 194, he enlisted in the Marine Corps. After training in California, David was sent to Chu Lai, Vietnam in 1965. David's first tour was spent at Chu Lai and fixing aircraft at Marble Mountain Air Facility. After returning home and marrying his wife, David reenlisted for a second tour. David was promoted to sergeant and repaired aircraft at Chu Lai until 1970. David also worked at Iwakuni Marine Corps Base for the remaining 6 months of his second tour. David returned to the United States in 1970 where he worked at Camp Lejeune and as a Drill Instructor on Parris Island. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Marine Corps Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-07-29 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ChristianD Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c55f7aeb7291263076141aa4c775faa7.mp4 f410805a58db268915e6581f215f6bbf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/00bdf224fb9d739282bcc2e24955f9f4.pdf c76351428bafbb2a9aea41485531a92d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Harold Christian (13:14) Background Information (00:05)      Born May 24th 1935 (00:07) Served as a corporal in the Army in the mid to late 1950s. (00:12) He attended high school in Troy, Michigan until he enlisted in the Military. (00:33) He enlisted due to the safety of Korean conflict having just ended and the opportunities the military offered. (00:49) Between his graduation in the spring and his activation in service n September of 1953/1954, Harold worked at a grocery mart. (1:29) Service (1:40)               Military life was very strange. His first week of service was mostly physicals and paperwork. (1:44) After men from the Korean conflict returned, it was hard for young men to get work in the civilian job market. (2:13) Harold served as a quartermaster. (2:35) He served 2 of his 3 years of service in Alaska. (2:50) There was never a threat of danger for Harold. He was afraid of the war stating up again. (3:17) Most men passed time by drinking or playing pickup basket ball games in a gym. (3:44) Harold sent many letters to his sisters. They often sent boxes of cookies back. (4:26) Holidays were very hard to celebrate in the service. Christmas songs were played at the base in Alaska the day after Thanksgiving. (5:05) Some men would even cry because they knew they would not be home to see their family for Christmas. (5:40) On one Thanksgiving, Harold was invited over to a civilian’s house for Thanksgiving. (6:00) Harold believes he wasted his time in the service. He could have taken more classes and learned more while he was in the service. (6:55) He received a tattoo while in the service. He very much regrets it. When he got them in 1954 the coast for 3 was 50 dollars. (7:53) Harold was turned down from 2 jobs due to his tattoos. (8:55) He was told that if any infection occurred as a result of his tattoo than he would have been court martialed. (9:46) Exiting Service   Harold was discharged in Texas. He was tremendously happy the day he left the service. (10:37) He was able to make close friends while in the military. He lost contact with these people after he was discharged. (11:16) Life after Service (12:09) �   Harold worked for Ford Motor Company. He then went to an airline school in Kansas City. (12:11) In 1994 he retired from the airline business. (12:42) He supports the VFW but is not in any veteran’s organization. (12:50) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Christian, Harold (Interview outline and video), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Christian, Harold Description An account of the resource Harold Christian served as a Quartermaster in the U.S. Army from approx 1954-1957 after the Korean Conflict. While in the service, Harold spent two years stationed in Alaska and one year stationed in Texas. After exiting the service he pursued a care as an airline pilot. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Christian, Tessa (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-11-19 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ChristianH1356V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c4ad955dae087db3546af692209036df.mp4 55e96ab89ff22ae4c717a448d73e27e7 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4373ead65aafeed97672573aad2980d1.pdf 745d6159f1993439bbf05dabe69fc2ee PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Robert Christiansen Length: 34:05 (00:01) Background Information • • • • • • • Robert was born on August 11, 1920 in Muskegon, Michigan His grandparents were from Denmark Robert’s father sold milk and was a lumberjack He went to 2 years of college Robert got married in 1940 He worked at Teledyne Motors They had 2 children (6:20) Training • • • • Robert was drafted and volunteered for the Navy He trained at Great Lakes Training Camp in 1944 Two of his brothers were also in the service Robert was sent to Camp Shoemaker for 2 weeks (10:20) Deployment • • • • • • He boarded a ship with 2,000 soldiers and went south of Hawaii They went to New Guinea and were put in tents with cots The place flooded from all of the rain and many of the soldiers got dysentery Robert was sent to Finschaefen, New Guinea They went up a mountain with a lot of clay and it rained hard making it hard to move He was taken to the USS Ward, but they didn’t have an opening for a fireman striker (14:53) USS July • • • • • • • • • • • They went in a convoy to Northern Philippines Robert spotted a pilot land in the water and helped get him rescued They did a depth charge run and they think they hit a sub because oil surfaced Robert went to the Leyte Bay area and ran into a typhoon on the way Their ship was damaged so they were put on picket duty, searching for subs The ship picked up Army Rangers and they destroyed the radar station at Leyte After that a lot of ships came in for the landing They took a convoy north of Manila and helped some paratroopers that missed their mark because of wind Robert then went in a convoy to Okinawa, Japan They narrowly escaped being hit by a couple of Japanese kamikaze planes Robert was stationed on a 20mm anti aircraft gun �• • • When they left Okinawa they were escorting tugboats that were pulling damaged destroyers A kamikaze plane hit the hospital ship in their convoy The USS Ward, that he was on before the USS July, was sunk and they thought Robert was on it so he didn’t get any of his mail (25:58) Back to the US • • • • • • • • • • • Robert went to Pearl Harbor and then to San Diego, California He got a 30 day leave and went home Their ship got repaired and they were heading out, but heard that the war was over They brought the ship to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, to be decommissioned Robert went to Detroit, Michigan, for a month He then went to Navy Pier, Chicago and was discharged at Great Lakes Training Center in 1945 after 20 months of service Robert was in California when the Atom bombs were dropped and thought it was a good thing because it saved a lot of soldiers lives He moved back to Michigan and worked at Continental Motors, building tank engines and testing them Robert joined the VFW and a Polar Bear Post He retired in 1973 and moved to Florida for 10 years Robert now lives in Michigan because of his health problems � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Christiansen, Robert (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Christiansen, Robert Description An account of the resource Robert Christiansen was born on August 11, 1920 in Muskegon, Michigan. He joined the US Navy in 1944 and served in the Pacific on board the destroyers USS Ward and USS July. He served on convoy duty between New Guinea and the Philippines and in the Okinawa campaign. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McCauslin, Kelly (Interviewer) Spring Lake District Library (Spring Lake, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Navy World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-08-02 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ChristiansenR Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6b6c94223593ef444dd1fbb5c600040f.pdf 86b056b10ddabb5a21be8d09deca3497 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Christina McAllister Interviewers: Philip Matro, Douglas Brunner and Chelsea Vanbiesbrouck Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 11/7/2011 Biography and Description Christina McAllister grew up in Lowell, Michigan. She was raised in a Christian home. She discusses her interracial relationship. Transcript VANBIESBROUCK: My name is Chelsea Vanbiesbrouck and we are here today on November 7, 2011 and I am Interviewing Dennis Jones and Christina McAllister about their experience of diversity in West Michigan. Okay, Christina if you would give me some basic information about yourself like where you grew up, your siblings, what’s your family like. MCALLISTER: Okay, I grew up in Lowell, Michigan. It was kind of a farm town. I have six sisters. Both of my parents came from...were married previously, had children, and then had me and my younger sister. So lots of kids, all girls. I was raised in a Christian home, so church and religion and all that was part of my upbringing. My parents were very conservative. VANBIESBROUCK: And what ethnicity are you? MCALLISTER: I am white. VANBIESBROUCK: Okay, and when is your birthday? MCALLISTER: May 29, 1989 and what else do you want to know? VANBIESBROUCK: That’s good for now. Okay, Dennis, where did you grow up, what’s your family like? JONES: I grew up in Waukegan, Illinois. It’s pretty much 45 minutes dead north of Chicago. I actually was closer to the Wisconsin border. But I grew up. I am the youngest of four siblings and my older sister, that is my half sister. My mom, she was in a previous relationship, marriage, and that’s where my oldest sister came from and then me and my brother and my other sister are all from my mom and my dad. Waukegan is kind of an interesting place. I lived on the border of two cities, Waukegan and Beach Park. Beach Park is more of a richer area and Waukegan is like, I guess, the poorer side of the city and so I got to see a lot of both areas, but I also grew up in a Christian home. My dad was a pastor from the time I Page 1 �could remember, so he’s been doing that. And my mom grew up in a Christian home. Her dad was a pastor. My dad didn’t grow up in a Christian home. He was kind of in and out of church and kind of doing his own thing and then he was in the Army for awhile and then he got hurt and that is when he came to know Christ. So he hasn’t always been a Christ-follower, but all my life I have known him as one. So I ended up, I mean, I am black if you wanted to know that. VANBIESBROUCK: Thank you. JONES: No problem. So it’s been kind of funny. I have grown up around all different types of ethnicity with being on the border of two cities with Waukegan and Beach Park. And then also being in the public school system for awhile there from kindergarten til sixth grade and then I started going to a public school from sixth grade on and then I was predominantly around Caucasians. And so it’s never been anything new. Huh? MCALLISTER: You went to a private school. JONES: That’s what I said. MCALLISTER: Oh, you said public. JONES: Yeah, public from kindergarten to fifth grade. MCALLISTER: And then private after that. JONES: That’s what I said. MCALLISTER: Okay. JONES: I love you, too. This is my part of the interview. So, yeah, for the most part I have always been around all different types of races so I have never been the type to kind of shy away from any type of race or just somebody else because of skin color. And I grew up, I have mixed cousins. I had a white cousin there for awhile before they got divorced, if that makes sense. Cousin-in-law. So, yeah that’s kind of a little bit of my story. VANBIESBROUCK: Okay, what about you Christina? Have you always been around Caucasians cause you’ve been in West Michigan? MCALLISTER: Primarily, yes. I went to a Christian high school that was close to Muskegon, which is a lot of black people. And so we had a few black students there. I was not really good friends with any of them. They weren’t the coolest people to hang out with. But my parents always raised me to never look at color when you’re meeting someone, that you get to know their personality and who they are and it’s their morals and qualities and characteristics that count. So even though I was not exposed to a lot of different races, that was something very important to my parents because it was. VANBIESBROUCK: So growing up, did you guys, like, what did you want your boyfriend or your girlfriend, like what qualities did you want them to have and did you think about dating someone from a different Page 2 �ethnicity? Was that part of what you considered or did you not even think about that when you were younger? MCALLISTER: Well when I was younger I never thought about that. I never expected to be with a black guy because I didn’t really know any black people and I certainly was not attracted to any of the ones that I did know. So, my ideal man was tall, dark and handsome which I ended up getting in a little different form. Just kidding. So I guess the most important thing to me was someone who was hardworking and who was going to love me, who loves Jesus, and those are pretty much the most important things to me. VANBIESBROUCK: And Dennis? JONES: For me, I think it’s funny because just the way, ever since I grew up I was kind of the more different one out of my family. “You’re so proper, you’re so this, you’re so that” which I thought was funny. And they always would say, “Yeah, you’re not going to marry a black girl, or you’re never going to be with a black girl.” And I was like, “Yeah I probably won’t.” So I always grew up knowing that I probably wouldn’t date someone within my race or, I guess not knowing, but I always just. I never really always looked at other cultures or other ethnicities before a black person or a black girl if that makes sense. And it’s not like I had anything against them, it was just, I don’t know, being wired that way as a kid and always interested in other cultures and other different looking girls. I remember like in fourth grade, I really liked this Asian girl. That was kind of funny. So that’s never really been an issue for me, like race or anything like that. But, like one of the main things I really grew up wanting out of a girl was a Christian-based faith and grounded foundations in that cause that’s where my family came from, very strong Christians, and just good morals and values about herself and someone that wasn’t, my mom said, “Loose.” I never knew what that meant, but she always said it and I guess I know what it means now that I’m older. So, that’s kind of my story of choosing a woman. VANBIESBROUCK: Okay, Christina, could you tell me how you guys met? MCALLISTER: Yes. We met at Cornerstone University, which is where we both went to college. Dennis was a year ahead of me. It was my Freshman year, his Sophomore year. In the winter time, Dennis was coaching...not coaching...he was helping out with intramural volleyball. He was reffing. And we had seen each other around and stuff and I guess I thought he was cute for a black guy but I was not really interested in black guys, so I never really thought about dating him but we ended up kind of hanging out one night after or during the volleyball games and we had a lot of fun, we really connected. We just kind of like, our personalities like immediately, like it was just so easy to hang out with him and have fun with him and stuff. I guess that was the first time I was like, “Oh, I actually kind of like you.” VANBIESBROUCK: That’s good. JONES: I guess my version is a little different. I remember the first time I met her. We both played sports at Cornerstone and it was near the training room and she was in there and I was getting my ankles taped for practice and she was... I don’t know what she was doing. And I knew her friend Hellen before I knew her and I saw Hellen and I was like, “Oh Hellen, how you doing?” And then in the hallway I met her and she was like, “Oh yeah this is Christina.” And I was like, “Oh hey Christina, how you doing?” And the next Page 3 �day I saw her and I actually forgot her name and I was like, “Oh hey, you. How are you doing?” And then she was like, “My name’s Christina.” And I was like, “Yeah.” And from there I always thought she was a cute girl and stuff like that but at the time she was kind of dating someone else and I was like, “Yeah, whatever.” So I did not really think anything of it and it was a couple weeks later, a month later or something. I don’t know, it was awhile after that and I was just doing the intramural stuff and I was just hyper that night for some reason and then she ended up being around and she ended up falling to my wrath of someone I started talking to. I talked to a lot of people and she ended up being that person that night. I guess it was a blessing? I’m just kidding, it was a good thing. VANBIESBROUCK: So like once you two started getting serious, were either one of you kind of intimidated or scared or nervous about the fact that one of you is white and one of you is black? Or did it just not even cross your mind? JONES: Well for me it didn’t cross mine initially I thought this thing was never going to work out after we had our first couple dates. We both thought we were just like “Alright this isn’t going to work out.” We were really.., the night we met we really had a lot of fun and stuff like that and then when we went on a couple dates it was just like, “Ooo, so..” and that kind of that awkward funk in the air. But as far as being intimidated or anything like that with like race or color, it never crossed my mind initially at all until I guess when I met her family. But that didn’t really bother me. Instead I always, even in high school, I was always the minority so I was always around people of different color and so for me it was easy to just bond and talk to other people and their families. Especially playing sports through high school, always like around my friends’ families, like with my dad being a pastor, it was hard for my mom and him to get out to games and stuff like that or make the long road trips cause they were always involved with church and stuff like that so I always spent a lot of time with my friends’ families or would go over there before practice and hang out with them and their family. So it was always easy for me to get along with a friend’s family, so to speak cause it was just like, “Oh yeah.” It kind of reminds me of high school, so even watching a lot of my friend’s family, like same thing in college with sports and stuff, my family never got the chance to come out a lot, especially being away from home and playing sports. It was always easier to connect with other families cause that was my family at the time, so me meeting her family and being around her never really intimidated me. VANBIESBROUCK: Same for you? MCALLISTER: No, it was very different for me. Dennis was the first black friend I’d ever had and, really, like a genuine friend and so it was really all I actually thought about really was that probably for the first couple months. And I mean I really like Dennis as a person and it obviously didn’t stop me from dating him but it was something I was very like unsure about. I don’t know, I was just curious, because, something I really hadn’t hardly been exposed to at all. So, I stuck with Dennis for the first couple dates cause I wanted to kiss a black guy. JONES: That is exactly what she told me. MCALLISTER: It’s really true. I’ve come this far, I might as well, get to the date where we kiss and... JONES: She told me that after we had been together for awhile. It must have been a good kiss. Page 4 �MCALLISTER: I had a lot of encouragement from my friends and people who knew Dennis that, “Oh, it’s a good thing and it doesn’t matter about color, and all those things will work out.” So all the concerns I guess that I had initially I had a chance to work through and process on my own. And then on my own and kind of with my friends and people who knew Dennis. So by thetime a couple months in when I was really...it was starting to get serious, I knew that I wanted to do it and was committed and that color and stuff doesn’t really matter and those things that could be problems or something in the future, even if they ended up being a problem, I was willing to, I guess, sacrifice or work through it or whatever. . JONES: For me it was just like “Hey, let’s do this thing.” I didn’t like.., nothing crossed my mind about like how people perceived me or if we got looks or anything like that cause it was just normal to be for some reason. Just cause of the way I grew up, the people I was around, the school I went to when I was in high school, being a private school, being primarily around white people and a few other races. But, I mean for me, I guess it was normalized for me at a young age so it just never really bothered me. VANBIESBROUCK: So what was your family’s response to each other or to you? Or their attitude? JONES: My family didn’t care. They were like, “Oh, nice. Bring her around.” “Alright, if I can. Kind of busy.” I don’t know. It didn’t... my family, it wasn’t an issue, it wasn’t a big issue at all. VANBIESBROUCK: Was that partially because you already had people in your family who had already been with white people before? JONES: Yeah, that too. Plus our family background, it’s just always been, “It doesn’t matter,” especially my mom’s side of the family. My dad, a little bit different, because he’s from down south. But with him it was no big deal. It doesn’t matter, so I guess with my immediate family it was like, “Oh, that’s cool. Make sure she’s the right one, make sure you’re looking for all the right things and not just dating her to date her.” They were more worried about the person than the color. VANBIESBROUCK: That’s good. Christina? MCALLISTER: My family’s response was a little bit different. Actually it was really surprising to me because of the way my parents had raised me and taught me to be so open-minded to color and to culture and that kind of thing. I waited awhile before I really brought Dennis home. We kind of don’t bring a guy home unless you are serious about him. It is kind of the family rule. So I brought him home and told some of my family I was serious about him. My mom especially definitely had some concerns about us and our relationship. And that was probably the biggest hurdle as far as this stuff goes, with the whole black-white thing that we had to get through. she...this was before she really got to know Dennis, just kind of going off the whole color thing, basically. VANBIESBROUCK: So like a stereotype? MCALLISTER: Yeah, the biggest thing that tripped her up. JONES: Always fighting the stereotype. I’ll tell ya. Page 5 �MCALLISTER: Well it wasn’t really...it wasn’t really concerns like, “I don’t like a black guy.” It was mostly the cultural differences and marriage is tough already and relationships are tough. And you are going to have to think about your kids and what they are going to have to go through. And you have to think about how it is going to put a lot more pressure on your relationship with something that is already tough. And different...just adjustments between coming together and being married and we had only been dating for a few months, so it was like we were jumping to marriage. But that is what we think about long-term. Anyways, so... but she was just if we are coming from two different cultures to try to bring that together and form a family that has a lot more stresses added to just coming t gether and being a family. So those were their concerns initially. And that was really hard because at that time I was preset on dating Dennis and I really loved him and I wanted that to happen. And my mother’s a very stubborn woman, so my dad being the practical one, they both talked to me and said, “Well these are our concerns about it.” And I told them, “I understand that. I think that things are changing. I don’t think things are going to be as tough as you think it’s going to be. Dennis’s background is probably not as different as you think it is.” So just kind of like I guess setting at ease some of their concerns. And then I continued to date Dennis and do that relationship and that was...my mom has the My Way or the Highway policy, so that didn’t really go over well for her, at first. She really thought the longer we were together, the more it was kind of eating at her that this was a bad thing and she was so concerned about all these things. So that was really tough for us because it got to this point where she was just like, “well we don’t approve of this relationship,” and blah blah blah. So we had to get through that. And my response was, “just get to know Dennis because I think you might change your mind.” And that is how my dad responded, of course, because he is the practical one and the other side of it was Dennis. I think it was hard for you to kind of go through that, but Dennis’s attitude was just that he was gonna just show him who he was and try to win them over, I guess. And he did that. And now, my family absolutely loves Dennis and can’t imagine him not being a part of the family. VANBIESBROUCK: So, Dennis, how did you respond or did Christina tell you what her parents were kind of feeling or did you kind of assume? JONES: At first, I didn’t assume at all but then she told me. I was guess I was taken back by it because I had never been in a situation like this. And for me it was like there was not much we could do. It is what it is. And I think I remember telling her... she was...l remember one night she came to me and she was crying, talking about how she was really upset with her mom and I said, “well, it’s okay. I will just prove them wrong.” I think those were pretty much my words. And I said, “it doesn’t matter.” And I said “from what I can see, your family’s great, but it was probably something they never had to deal with before.” And I was like, my family this is not an issue at all. I reassured her that it’s... we don’t really care about color. And my mission was to kill them with kindness and love and be myself. Like me her dad, we got along really well initially and I think him, the way he acted around me and that way he accepted me was kind of the biggest one, always the boyfriend4ather acceptance thing. And that was huge for me. And then for her mom, it was just like it is gonna be a tough one but we can do it. So that one was just a lot of work and I remember... now thinking back to it, I can see that there was times when she was a little more kind of cautious and stuff like that. But now, it doesn’t even matter. MCALLISTER: Now he’s the family favorite. Page 6 �JONES: I am the family favorite which is pretty sweet. Usually they go through a ranking like, “oh, Pat, Dan, Dennis.” And I mean, it’s usually, I’m at the top, so I take the cake. MCALLISTER: The boys have a ranking system. JONES: Yeah, usually as a family. Usually your youngest sister, her boyfriend always comes in last, but we won’t talk about that. But usually I finish at the top. The only reason I am in second right now is because the oldest daughter had kids. MCALLISTER: Can’t compete with the grandkids. JONES: I can’t compete with the grandkids. But I am a damn close second. We usually talk about it sometimes too, me and Pat. MCALLISTER: That is ridiculous. JONES: Pats really fighting hard for the first place but I can’t do anything about the grandkids. Just give it a while til we have our kids, we’ll be in first. VANBIESBROUCK: So for a while it was kinda like they just didn’t know you so they were hesitant, but once they got to know you. JONES: Yeah I think that was the big thing. MCALLISTER: Yes. My dad grew up in West Michigan where there wasn’t a lot of diversity back in the day. And my mom grew up in California where there was a lot of diversity but moved to Michigan when she was probably late twenties early thirties so this a long time ago and things were really different then. So the diversity she got exposed to was kind of more, I mean times were different back then a lot more people were racists and had those kind of thoughts and didn’t accept people and were segregated. So I think that their background and not being exposed to that was the biggest thing that freaked them out. It wasn’t even necessarily because of the way they raised us they were definitely always you shouldn’t think about people’s color it was definitely something that they were always adament about but I think it was when it actually like happened and came to be that they were like whoah, now what. So it just took a while but I think once they kind of got used to the idea and yeah get to know dennis so. VANBIESBROUCK: Were your friends kind of the same way? MCALLISTER: I think our friends were.. VANBIESBROUCK: Well I mean most of our friends knew Dennis before from school. MCALLISTER: Yeah most of my friends did know Dennis before JONES: I think I knew most of your friends before I knew you. Page 7 �MCALLISTER: Yeah. I mean everyone was really accepting, as far as friends. I don’t feel like anyone like in our age group has ever been weird about it or concerned or anything it’s always like “oh yeah we love you guys!”. So that was good, lots of support that way which is good. VANBIESBROUCK: And your grandparents were the same way? JONES: Well my grandma was the biggest one, she didn’t care who she was. My grandma was like as long as she knows Christ, your fine with her. If you didn’t get out of there so my grandma never really, she was the biggest one, she never saw color ever since I have known her she never cared. Her biggest thing was, like I was saying we have a huge Christian background, it was Christ your good in her book or even if you didn’t it’s not like she hated you but she definitely let know Jesus was the way type of deal. She would sit out on her porch and talk to any and everybody that came by, like all the kids in the neighborhood loved her, she was that type of lady. So color was never an issue she I mean she worked for a white lady for a while if I’m not mistaken, like cleaning her house and stuff like that. So it was not like slave labor or anything like that it was definitely like they were good friends and she just helped her out like that. One of her best friends I can remember was a white lady. VANBIESBROUCK: So like your parents and grandparents are they like the main reason why your so open to different ethnicities or is that just how you are as a person? JONES: I think it’s a little bit of both. I mean, my family has always told me I was different when I was younger ha and they still tell me I’m different like they don’t understand me. Just because I’m a lot of off the wall stuff but just personality stuff they don’t understand, like if you put me in the middle of a forest with a bunch of Indians and ask I could probably start talking to them about a bunch of stuff haha that’s just the way I am. So they don’t understand where I got that from because my dad is a fairly quiet man and my morn is I don’t know she is kind of shy when she meets new people and stuff like that but for me its just like whatever. I don’t know it’s a combination of the way I was raised and developing into a new person. MCALLISTER: My dad’s grandma is really quiet, she doesn’t say much but she has always liked you. JONES: Yeah she has always been nice to me, she never really said anything. I don’t know I’ve always been, unless she hates me and I don’t know about it. MCALLISTER: Ha yeah she is really quiet, she doesn’t really say a lot but she has always been nice to Dennis. JONES: She gives me hugs. MCALLISTER: Ha yeah she likes Dennis. You’ve never met my grandpa. JONES: No I’ve never met your mom’s dad. MCALLISTER: He married a very southern woman, remarried. My grandma died and then he remarried this lady and I know she doesn’t approve of our relationship. She has never met Dennis and neither has he but she likes to speak her southern piece about it. She’s kind of crazy. But um we had a family Page 8 �reunion this last summer and Dennis met my great uncles and aunts, so my grandpa’s brothers and sisters, were all there and then my uncles and aunts. Everybody like loved Dennis so, even my great uncles and aunts, we talked about it like they are from anothergeneration they are all in their gosh sixties seventies, no they have to be older than that now. JONES: yeah seventies. MCALLISTER: At least seventies some of them are in their eighties I think. So totally different generation and we talked about it like it might be a little weird. JONES: And my response was yeah I don’t care haha. MCALLISTER: Yeah. but they loved him, he was there for the first like day or two and then first two days and then he left because he had his own family reunion and the next day when Dennis was gone they were all like Dennis is so great we really like him blah blah blah. My great aunt invited the two of us up to her house in Canada so ha were gonna go up there sometime. But yeah, I was actually really surprised with how accepting they were. Not that I would expect them to be different but just that generations are different and sometimes you never know, people have these strange opinions. VANBIESBROUCK: So like when you two were talking to your parents about each other what was the first thing you told them like Christina did you tell your parents like the first thing you told them was it Dennis is black or was that like the last thing? MCALLISTER: No I actually didn’t really say that at all. I kind of thought that they would just be like that they wouldn’t care at all. And that’s probably me being a little bit naive because of the fact that I never had any black friends and here I am bringing home this black guy, yeah I really like I want to date him haha. They of course are probably going to be like wait at minute. so no obviously I don’t even think I told them that at all and then when I brought him home, they were like oh he’s black ha ha. JONES: Yeah my family just assumed she was a different race. MCALLISTER: Hahaha JONES: They were just like, they knew like ah she’s white huh, and I was like yeah type of deal. But it wasn’t a big thing it was kind of like family joking and fun but it wasn’t a big thing. They were happy, they were pretty happy. They have never said anything about race or anything like that. But yeah, they literally just assumed. “Hey morn I’m dating somebody”, “Oh alright she’s white huh”, “Yup” haha. VANBIESBROUCK: So was it frustrating for either one of you, or Dennis for your family that Christina’s family kind of had reservations about it? JONES: umm VANBIESBROUCK: Or about you two? Page 9 �JONES: I actually, it was kind of one of those things I decided to keep to myself. I didn’t want my family to pre-judge her family. Unless they asked I said something, my morn asked and I think that was one of my biggest, or my mom’s biggest concerns, was them being accepting of me. And she was kind of like, well my mom is kind of one of those conspiracy theorists I like to think. My dad was just like alright make the right choices, see you later. My mom she will talk to me for 15 hours about the same thing. I think her biggest thing was well how those things can go. Something happens with you and her and they will blame it on you and try and go after you and I’m like mom it’s not like that at all haha, oh my gosh she formulates all of these crazy things, its kind of funny but ridiculous at the same time. And that was just her biggest concern, if anything big ever happened like what would they do, would they kind of hold a grudge against me not only because I did something to their daughter their baby but it was a black man that did it. So that was my mom’s biggest concern and I was like ahh it’s not that big of deal. I’m not stupid I’m not gonna do anything crazy. If anyone breaks up she will be the one who breaks up with me. I don’t know why I thought that haha but that’s just the way I thought of it. VANBIESBROUCK: So like in the beginning of your relationship would you guys say you, was like harder because her family was kind of hesitant or was it just one of those things where its something they thought it might be hard whereas a Christian family might think it’s hard to dat a Catholic but you get over it. Was it the same thing? JONES: In a way. I think it was mainly for me, her parents. I wanted to make sure her parents were ok with me and winning her parents over. Her sisters were, they just didn’t care. They were like oh yeah he’s great type of deal, and so for me it was just her parents. I just wanted acceptance of the parents. MCALLISTER: I mean it was hard for a while. But they did get over it and pretty quickly. And my family really does love Dennis now. VANBIESBROUCK: So is it weird going to a white household for a while, have you learned any new traditions or like weird things that your family doesn’t do? JONES: Haha yeah there are a few, I can’t name them, but there was one thing I don’t know. Like just, I guess Thanksgiving we call it “soul food” haha. We call it dressing, what you guys call stuffing. And I remember my mom, like parents told me “your like a chameleon you can take on the attitude and shape of anybody your around. If your around Mexicans you will somehow try and speak Spanish. Or if your around white people how to talk like a white person and be like a white person. If you’re around black people, you may not know how to talk like a black person but how to sound like, bionics, be around them and how to hold a conversation”. VANBIESBROUCK: Like fit in. JONES: Yeah. And then so I don’t know I went home and like unconsciously I was like yeah I’ll get some stuffing and my mom goes “what did you just say”, I was like “ah I meant dressing sorry”. Haha like I know it’s a taboo but just simple things like that with food and stuff. I don’t think like cultural things. I think this is funny, like, face towels-we use face towels all the time at home to wash up and take showers and stuff like that and every time I’m like you don’t use face towel? No I don’t need a face towel why would I need a face towel to wash up, a face towel is for your face. That’s kind of one Page 10 �different thing, and they are like you picked that up off those white people. I’m like no I didn’t I’ve always been that way! Anyway. I think that for me is just kind of the funny things. VANBIESBROUCK: Any for you? MCALLISTER: Yeah. The first time I went to Dennis’s house it was really crazy. I couldn’t understand what anyone was saying like the whole time I was there. Well his dad has a really deep, southern accent so he is like impossible to understand, well he was at first. JONES: I’m like the only one that can understand my dad. Most people, like my brothers and sisters, after he comes back from being down south they can’t even understand him. But for me it’s like oh yeah I’ll go get that for you and they are like what did he say? So I knew my dad would be a tough person for her to understand in the first place anyway. MCALLISTER: Yeah but , it was definitely like a lot more of a culture shock than what I thought it was going to be because like spending time with Dennis I knew his habits and things like that about him but he is like a white black man and I didn’t really realize his family is not that way haha. VANBIESBROUCK: How long had you been dating Dennis before you met his family? MCALLISTER: Four months. So, gosh I can’t remember. Yeah it was hard to understand them, they always liked to talk about past experiences and like family stuff. They have all these like family stories and secrets, not like secrets but jokes or whatever. And so I like didn’t say very much at all the first time I was there and um, and then we went to let’s see, we went to their church and that was really crazy haha. Um I had never been to a black church before and it was very interesting. It was really loud, everyone was singing and dancing. Lots of amen’s and thank you Jesus, lots of that kind of thing. I had never seen his dad talk like that before. JONES: Yeah my dad is super quiet at home, doesn’t say much, but when he talks its like very profound and so wisdom filled and your like man! And then when he gets in front of the pulpit he will talk for hours and hours upon end and your like shut up I want to go home and watch the bears game. Sometimes by brother and I will sit in the back and kind of give him the cut throat like you need to stop. MCALLISTER: Ha well it’s not just talking he like goes on rants. JONES: Yeah he takes a lot of rabbit trails when he’s preaching so she was like I didn’t understand a word or I didn’t understand the message at all. MCALLISTER: Yeah it was very different. I was used to like teaching out of scripture he was just going on. VANBIESBROUCK: Or like an outline to follow? MCALLISTER: Yeah, which I later learned that’s what they do in their bible study. They do that before but the service we went to, I don’t know, was like a praise and worship service. That’s what it seemed like to me. Page 11 �JONES: A lot of church in my family growing up, they have so many different services I can’t even remember them all its crazy. MCALLISTER: So that was probably the craziest thing that I experienced first. JONES: That was my biggest fear, was taking her to church with my family. I still am like I don’t want you going to church with my family) don’t want you to like run away haha. Seriously. MCALLISTER: (didn’t’ run away, I was clapping and singing and I got really into it! JONES: I still am afraid to take her home, to church and we’ve been dating three and a half four years. VANBIESBROUCK: So that’s not the type of church that you would want to go to as a couple? Or Dennis you just like white people’s church better? JONES: For me, it doesn’t bother me I just want her to be comfortable because I’ve seen everything being in a black church. So I think for her (just want to see her comfortable and I can pretty much fit in with any scene. I like the church that we go to now. MCALLISTER: We go to my family’s church now. JONES: That was funny, I was terrified to bring her home. I was like man I don’t know what my family’s going to do, they are going to embarrass me. (think that was my biggest thing rather than race I was like I hope they don’t say anything stupid. VANBIESBROUCK: Did they make jokes about Christina being pale or anything? JONES: My mom made a couple of jokes. MCALLISTER: Yeah actually the first time I was there they did. It was funny. JONES: My family is very like joking, like we make fun of each other all the time. I think that’s typical with a lot of black families. That’s kind of how we express our love. We just make fun of each other haha. Like me and my brother, we never really tell each other I love you but it’s kind of one of those things . Me and him always grew up making fun of each other, my sister too. Like I’ll call her and be like “hey what’s up ugly how you doing”, she’s like “oh hey stupid” its just like oh ok like understood that we love each other. Even bringing in the way I grew up, that was kind of one of the tougher things because my family doesn’t really express a lot of love and we’re not like super touchy feely. And that was actually kind of the way I was raised and seeing my dad express his love for my mom and that was tough because that’s what I grew up around and thought it was normal, apparently it’s not. I mean not that it’s not normal but a different way of, like I would show her my love through just acts and stuff like that. MCALLISTER: Slapping me on the shoulder ha. JONES: Yeah and uh for her it was like “why don’t you tell me you love me, why don’t you do this for me, or take care of that for me”? And I’m like what I thought I was showing you I loved you. So I think it was, Page 12 �just being around that too growing up, was kind of one of our tougher hurdles. Learning the love language. VANBIESBROUCK: So was it, I mean is Christina like anybody else you’ve dated before? JONES: No actually. I don’t think I ever really haha. MCALLISTER: Normally he is really into chubby blonde girls haha. JONES: That’s not true at all! Couple blunders in my dating career but I got a couple lookers in there. I’ve had some good-looking girls, maybe not dated them but hahah but it’s not a big deal. You haven’t had quite the greatest dating career in your path either have you. MCALLISTER: I’ve had lots of great guys. JONES: A lot of questionable decisions there huh. No but I forgot the question haha. VANBIESBROUCK: Ha, if she is like anyone you’ve dated. JONES: Ah no she’s not. Totally different from any other girl I’ve dated. VANBIESBROUCK: Personality-wise? JONES: Yup, personality-wise, yeah real different. And I think that’s what drew me to her. I was like oh she might be a keeper. And then haha, also the also her faith and everything. That was something that really kind of got me. My mom was like “if you find a girl that believes in God and trusts in God that’s really rare in this world now a days and she’s like if you find a girl that, you need to keep her”. And I remember those words. And I remember one time I was home for a holiday and my uncle who, which I thought was kind of funny, was kind of a ladies man and like kind of a player/dog. And he was just a dog, dirty dog, but I love him. He was like “well son I’ll tell you one thing, if you find a girl that can make you change then that’s a girl you need to keep” and I remember those were two big things that made me really search in her to make to be like is this someone I want to keep in my life and marry. And I still can say I hold true to those words and she has definitely lived up to those. MCALLISTER: Aww JONES: Oh geez now I’m getting mushy haha. VANBIESBROUCK: And Dennis is nothing like a guy you’ve dated before? MCALLISTER: no not really. He is a lot different I guess, there are certain traits that are similar to certain guys but I guess overall in general he is pretty unique. obviously I’ve never dated a black guy before so that was new haha. I guess the things that I liked about hirn was that he was always really friendly, outgoing, really easygoing, really easy to get along with. Probably, the guys I dated before were a lot rnore emotional and like crabby. JONES: She liked pretty boys and skinny Jean type guys Page 13 �MCALLISTER: No I didn’t JONES: Yes you did. You liked the emo kids. MCALLISTER: That’s not ever true. I never even dated an erno guy. I dated a country bumpkin, and an athlete. That’s pretty much it. JONES: doesn’t count as an athlete. Hahahaha. MCALLISTER: He doesn’t count as an athlete. He doesn’t count as anything. I didn’t even put his narne on this recording. JONES: She can ‘X” it out. Hahahaha MCALLISTER: anyways, yeah I forgot the question. VANBIESBROUCK: So I guess like, you guys’ personalities kind of trump the fact that, that you are different ethnically? JONES: Yup MCALLISTER: Yup definitely. JONES: for me yup. MCALLISTER: yeah. JONES: I would have to say, that is definitely the biggest part for me that was the biggest one. MCALLISTER: Our families met this summer. JONES: Yeah thats wierd that our families actually met for the first time after, well being so far away and, being 4hrs. away is always tough to try and coordinate something, yeah. MCALLISTER: Both busy. JONES: Yeah are families met for the first time this summer it was, I though it went pretty well. MCALLISTER: Yeah it went great. My ah, JONES: My mom was kind of quiet, kind of I thought. My Brother does, he always talks. He did a lot of talking. I kind of wanted him to shut up, but thats fine. You’ve met my brother before. Like before you met my whole family, you met my brother. Cuz he was running track and we went to one of his track meets in Grand Rapids. It was me, you, ted and Hilary. It was, never mind I won’t put that on tape. I was going to say it was the first time I farted in front of you. Hahahahaha. MCALLISTER: oh yeah, umm. JONES: It prolly caught it. Hahahaha Page 14 �VANBIESBROUCK: Probably. MCALLISTER: No it went, it went really good. I think we both were a little bit nervous for. I mean my side of the family with our history and then. Even, even with Dennis’ family, like his mom is pretty quiet and can be kind of, I don’t know, introverted I guess. VANBIESBROUCK: Like she knew how your family felt about it? MCALLISTER: Yeah, I mean, I don’t know that that was really a concern at that point. JONES: I don’t know, My mom is kind of, I, I don’t know. MCALLISTER: maybe. JONES: It could have been. I don’t know. I can say that my mom kind of does have a tendency not to forget things. That could have been it. But my dad he’s just naturally quiet so he wasn’t going to talk anyway, unless. MCALLISTER: He, he was talking. JONES: but yeah, yeah he was talking. I think he is more worried about if, His biggest thing is if people can understand him. He, He’s got a little bit of a slur. When he grew up, he had a slight speech impediment, and his brothers kind of had to translate for him alot. So he, he is very conscious of the way he talks and stuff like that. So my dad is a little more quiet unless he is over the pulpit which it should be reversed. Um and then my mom she is usually very outgoing. But she is very shy when she meets new people or is in a new setting and she is. First of all she is deathly terrified because she thought we were going to go out on a boat and she hates the water. And she was terrified that they had dogs, and she hates dogs. And I’m like you are ridiculous. Like my dad he doesn’t care about dogs, but my mom is “Oh my gosh they got dogs can you ask them to put them away”. I was like mom, you’re going to visit over to someone’s house are you going, Luckly, I know them well enough to where they would do this for us and I was like I’ll ask ‘em. And so for me I was like you have all these reservations and questions, ugh. I think they briefly met at my graduation, but it wasn’t like for an extended period of time. Everybody was kind of out in their own worlds. So. But. VANBIESBROUCK: Didn’t your mom say something that was.. MCALLISTER: oh yeah (Laughter) First of all, what did she get, yeah she got orange pop, I told her, she was asking what, well do they like to eat? What do they like to do? And I told them like, Dennis’ mom don’t do a lot of water sports, she’s afraid of the water. She doesn’t like dogs also, so we put the dogs away and all that stuff. And then she’s like what do they like to eat? Well, they eat a lot and they like just about anything but, I was saying a few things that I knew that they liked that we had before, and I was like they like grape drink. I know it’s a stereotype but they really do like it. So she went out and bought orange pop, she didn’t even buy the right thing. And then at dinner she was giving drinks to everybody she’s like “Christina told me that you guys like orange pop”. And I was so embarrassed... JONES: She said “you guys”. I was like aahh. Page 15 �MCALLISTER: I mean, no one was offended but it was funny. JONES: She is very hospitable and nice. And her mom just has a tendency just to say things, and that was just one of those things. That was pretty funny. I was just like “ooohh..’ (laughter) MCALLISTER: My niece and nephew loved Dennis’ mom. They were snuggled up to her for most of the night. JONES: Yeah, Cameron, he was just sleeping. Maddie had a ton and ton of stories for my mom. My mom didn’t understand a word she was saying probably. But... and then she was like “ooh this is the little baby you always talk about.” And I was like yeah, she’s adorable. My mom used to run a daycare so she really loves kids. VANBIESBROUCK: So after they met, did either one of your parents tell you “Oh, I was expecting it to go this way, but it was really great, or...” JONES: To tell you the truth I haven’t really talked to my parents. Or, I’ve talked to them since then, just haven’t asked my parents what they thought. My brother and my sister were like “Oh it was really great I loved it, it was really good to sit down and talk to them and get to know them a little better.” So my brother and my sister were excited and happy about it. I guess I should probably talk to my parents. I think it went good, in my opinion. I don’t know, maybe I’m overlooking stuff. But I thought it was good. Sounds like a business meeting. (laughter) MCALLISTER: Um, no, my parents were good. I think my mom was nervous about... She was nervous about having people over anyways... And I think she was nervous aboutJONES: “My house is a mess, oh my gosh!” MCALLISTER: -Yeah, I mean, impressing them, well not impressing them, but making them feel comfortable and welcome. like a hostess I guess. She’s like that with everybody. But I think because it was Dennis’ family she felt a little more pressure. So, I don’t know. I think it went really well though. My mom said “Oh Dennis’ family is so nice and it was so nice to spend time with them.” That’s pretty much what everyone in my family said. So she invited them back up for another time. (Laughter) VANBIESBROUCK: -For more orange drink... (Laughter) MCALLISTER: Yeah for more orange drink, and for a ride on the lake. Page 16 �JONES: My dad would go, but my mom would just freak out. She’s like “we’re not going on the boat right?” I was like I told you three weeks ago that we’re not going on the boat. I don’t need to tell you again, If do i might take you on the boat just to scare the crap out of you. (Laughter) VANBIESBROUCK: So have you guys noticed that whenever you go out on a date or you go hang out with people have you noticed that people treat you different? Or do the people that you see in restaurants and stuff, they just don’t care? JONES: To me, in my perspective, I don’t know about Christina, but to me the people in west michigan... I don’t know, I guess it depends on the area, where you’re at. But most people it doesn’t seem like they really care. I don’t know we’ve never really received any snide remarks, I guess a couple of whoops from black girls. Like “what is he doing with her?” (Laughter) VANBIESBROUCK: They’re just jealous. JONES: I don’t know but when we’re out, I guess I never really pay attention to people. This is just who I am, I always keep my head down when i walk and i’ll put my head up when i see someone, kind of make eye contact. But, I don’t know. I always keep my head down or look at her when we’re out and walking and stuff like that. And then I think with society and the way we were raised and our generation, it’s normal. So I don’t think a lot of people care. VANBIESBROUCK: Yeah, so you expect it more from older people. JONES: But yeah now i think that even more older people are starting to say “Ahh, what the heck it’s no big deal.” I mean if I went down south I’d probably get lynched... (Laughter) No I’m just kidding, I’m kidding. That was a joke, totally too far, I know. VANBIESBROUCK: What about you Christina? Have you noticed... MCALLISTER: No, I don’t notice those things at all anyways. But , I definitely haven’t noticed anything like that. JONES: I don’t think we’ve ever received like a... VANBIESBROUCK: We’ve had a lot of people like, well, in church, Dennis is the only black guy in our church (laughs). And I was actually kind of nervous about that. Because. Not nervous that it would go badly but nervous that he would feel uncomfortable or awkward. But we had so many people come up to us and like “Hi, so nice to meet you” and whatever. And people who know Dennis now love him. We’re helping out in the youth group now. The leaders are all about him and the kids all love him, I think it’s cool he’s black. JONES: I think it’s funny, the youth retreat we went out on it this weekend. And I think just like being out towards Grand Haven/Spring Lake area there’s not a lot of black people. But all the kids were kinda Page 17 �telling jokes and I tell a black joke and they’re all like (gasp) and I’m like “no it’s okay, you can laugh!” And they’re like “okay!” (laughs) To me honestly I think it’s hilarious when people are really cautious about saying black or african american... I could really care less. I remember like for me, I don’t know why they see it as a challenge and they’re like “Oh yeah, let me go talk to him” (laughter). Like we were just at a wedding and the guy goes “yeah my grandma, she’s kind of racist.” And I go “really? Can I meet her? Like I want to talk to her.” And he’s like “sure but I don’t know...” I was like “I don’t care, I want to talk to her and just see what happens.” Like that’s just really, I guess I kind of see it as a challenge. And (laughs) I don’t know, that’s just kind of my attitude toward everything. Like I mean, to me it’s like I don’t see any reason to put skin color above a person. So, I don’t know. Ever since I’ve been growing up between me and my group of friends we’ve always got racial jokes and stuff like that. Not just about black people and stuff like that but about other races obviously it’s joking amongst friends and stuff like that (laughs). VANBIESBROUCK: So Christina you mentioned how your mom was saying how it would possibly affect your kids. Have you guys talked about that? Or do you think it would even be an issue in the years to come? MCALLISTER: Um, I mean we’ve talked about it, But I don’t think it will be a big issue. I think that the longer we’re together, the less that I see color in Dennis and the more I see just us in our relationship. And those fears just kind of fade away as we’re kind of bringing our lives together and as we’re deciding how we’re going to, as a couple, raise our kids. And i think that’s kind of everyone’s concern is just making sure that we raise them how we wanna raise them and not really worrying about race. Because if we bring them up right then it’s not even going to be an issue. So I guess that’s kind of... We make jokes about, “well what if they marry black kids? Or what if they marry white kids?” (laughs) But , I don’t think it would matter either way for us. JONES: No. I guess to me i kind of see that it is, nowadays, you always see mixed kids. I mean when I was growing up in public school I was always around a ton of mixed kids. you get the looks like “man why are your eyes green and your hair is kinda course like a black person?” (Laughter) Or like, those types of things you wonder. But growing up around it and , seeing it more prevalent, in Hollywood and more now around our age, and once we’re starting to recognize the differences in people... It doesn’t really dawn on me what will my kids think. To me, they’ll fit in just fine. MCALLISTER: People have talked about as mixed kids, do you identify with the black culture or the white culture? I think the cultures are mixing in together a little bit more. And I think our focus is just going to be on raising them in I guess a culoture that we feel is healthy and right and appropriate. And hopefully they won’t identify with... Hopefully they’ll be chameleons like Dennis. That they’ll feel comfortable around anyone and everyone. that they won’t see that. They will just see people. JONES: I think more or less, once you stop focusing on skin color you kind of forget. “Oh yeah I forgot you were black. Or I forgot you were Mexican.” (Laughs) I remember in high school our coach was black but he is married to a white woman and one day we had this huge team sleep over, kind of like a team building thing. And we were going through their house and we were like “Oh yeah,” Like we saw a picture of our coach, our coach was black, and we saw a Page 18 �picture of him and his family and they were all like “Oh, yeah” It was one of those things that dawns on me like it’s one of those things where you really see a person for a person, and not skin color. You really do forget, to me I forget, and I’m like “oh yeah that is right, they really are different than I am.” Skin color-wise. MCALLISTER: I’m a little worried about our kids’ hair. JONES: Yeah she’s always like “You’re gonna have to do their hair, ‘cause I don’t know how to do it.” Like if it’s a boy it’s alright ‘cause I know how to cut hair. I’ll cut his hair right off. MCALLISTER: That’s our biggest concern right now. VANBIESBROUCK: Is hair? (Laughter) JONES: Yeah, I’ll have to teach her the ropes if they come out with coarse hair like black people. I’ll show her how to do it. If they come out with white people hair that’s totally up her alley. MCALLISTER: The poor girls are gonnna be hopeless. JONES: Ah no, my cousins came out with good hair, with white people hair. I don’t know why we say white people or black people hair. fine hair. Non-coarse hair. There ain’t nothing wrong with my hair! (Laughter) VANBIESBROUCK: So do you guys have anything that you would want to say to someone who was against interracial relationships? Or is it kind of like you have to be in one to really understand? JONES: Hmm.. Give it a try. No I’m just kidding. (Laughter) No I guess coming from, I mean I’ve had my times were skin color is an issue and I’ve seen both sides where people accept you and people reject you. And I think my biggest thing is , it may sound kind of cliché, but it was so long ago. like give it up. If all you see is color then you’re just, in my book, just kind of lost. Of course that’s how society is raised, that’s how society sees people, as their skin color. It’s stereotypes. But if you don’t get to know the person then you’re doing yourself a big disservice basically by judging a book by it’s cover. If Christina had never talked to me, she’s never been around black people, she’s probably just like he’s another one of those ghetto people just trying to chase basketball dreams (laughs). But not me! I was ready to give up basketball for crying aloud. But , it’s just one of those things where I think to me, this is how I see it. You’re not doing anything to me, you’re just doing more harm to yourself by harboring that hatred and harboring those feelings. To me, I’m fine. You can look at me all day and say “Oh my gosh blah blah” it’s not doing anything to me. It’s hurting you more than me. MCALLISTER: I don’t know, I guess with me it’s the same kind of thing. I haven’t had to deal with any of that kind of stuff my whole life so I guess it’s not something I’ve been real passionate about. Haven’t had a lot of personal experience, just in this relationship and with our families a little bit. I can say that when my parents were having a hard time with it I told them that they just need to get to know Dennis. I said Page 19 �“to me, this is worth whatever problems we might have because of this. This relationship is worth it. that’s all. END OF INTERVIEW Page 20 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/44cabebbd26511771c337b16da8e3465.mp3 c0c1ce94fa97fa75a004fc24da4c4e7e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_McAllister_Christina Title A name given to the resource Christina McAllister audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McAllister, Christina Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Matro, Philip Brunner, Douglas Vanbiesbrouck Description An account of the resource Christina McAllister grew up in Lowell, Michigan. She was raised in a Christian home. She discusses her interracial relationship. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Women--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-11-07 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0f1e86dcc1eae319337d7015ad2bd714.mp4 d2bf84bef5688122620f0ed1b859d238 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/949efe557fdd301659dc1302f3e57c22.pdf cb68ce2e3abeb4ec0b624ddc9299cbcf PDF Text Text Native American Oral Histories Gi-gikinomaage-min Project Interview: Christine Marcus Stone Interviewer: Belinda Bardwell Date: February 15, 2016 [Lin] Okay...Well good morning Chris! [Chris] Good morning. [Lin] Good afternoon. So, you were saying that you were born in Tuscon. [Chris] Tuscon, Arizona. [Lin] And then you were adopted. [Chris] Mmhm. [Lin] Were your parents from there originally? How did they get connected? [Chris] My parents, who adopted me, are originally from here, Rockford - Tower City, area. [Lin] Okay. [Chris] And they moved out there for my father's work. Well, he wasn't my father at the time. He moved out to work, he used to work for the University of Arizona. They built a little pueblo on the desert. Right in the middle of all these cactus. It was amazing. And my mother even witched her own well out there. Amongst the cowboys, and the snakes, and the horses and such. So, and then they were out there for eleven years. About the ninth/tenth year they found me, through this agency. So, [Lin] When you say witch for water, what does that mean? [Chris] She had a stick, and I don't remember what type of stick it was, it was apparently quite common out there. 'Cause they bought this eleven acres of land, and there was no water. And, of course, you have to have a well. And so she had a stick, maybe they call it a divining stick? And she was holding it, at the two ends and it was like a Y-shape thing and then she walked across the desert, around the house. All of a sudden, the stick starts to shake, and that's where they dug for the water. And, she had well. [Lin] Interesting. So, what Native group, or how would you describe yourself and your 1|Page �ethnicity? [Chris] Well, I was lucky enough to find out through my parents who knew the doctor. Navajo, Scottish, and some English. [Lin] Okay. [Chris] I'm a mixed bag. [Lin] So, you were transported back here. How old were you when you moved here? [Chris] I think two or three. And my parents first went to Detroit, and then moved to Grand Rapids soon after that. [Lin] So where did you grow up in Grand Rapids? [Chris] I went to Alger School. So, I grew up on Almont Street. Walked to school every day. And the house still is there. I drive by it occasionally. [Lin] Really? Still standing, huh? [Chris] Yeah, yeah. [Lin] Have you ever thought about going back in and-- [Chris] Knocking on the door? [Lin] Yeah. [Chris] Yeah. To see if the blue and white check wallpaper that I wanted put up is still there? Yeah. [Lin] So, you were two and three when you moved to Grand Rapids what was your first memory of living in an urban area? [Chris] Well, I would say the area I lived in was almost a quintessential urban area. Rows of cute little houses, and perfect little street. And you got the neighbors. We played kick the can at night or hide n' seek and stuff. It wasn't very much of a mixed neighborhood. But we had a lot of fun as kids. We played outdoors a lot. And, I walked to school. And spent all my time at Alger school, and ice skating and just growing up a kid. [Lin] You said you went back to visit in nineteen seventy. Can you tell me a little bit about that? 2|Page �[Chris] Mmhm, back to Tuscon. When I was high school, which was at Interlochen Arts Academy, we did a field trip. And we went to a-- there was a number of us, 'bout...I'd say seven or eight of us. That flew out to Phoenix. I flew out a little bit before to Tucson, to visit some of my parents friends that we're still in there and then they took me around and showed me where I was born. And where the old house was, the old little pueblo that my parents built. Which I still have a lot of pictures of, and they hand built it with the help of some Hispanic people. I still have some of the relics from that house. My mother loves art. So, I still have some really early pieces of art from there. [Lin] Nice. So it's still standing, huh? [Chris] I think so, yeah. [Lin] When was your last visit? [Chris] Well that was in seventy. I haven't been back for a long time. I do so much here. I just haven't really had the chance to go back. [Lin] Is that something you want to do? [Chris] Oh, yeah! Sure. Not probably to live because -- It's strange but being born in the desert, being here all these years, I'm like a woods and waters girl is what I tell myself. I love the woods and the water here. I live on the lake now, so it would be tough too. I love the beauty of the desert, and I would love to go back and visit. Even every year would be fabulous but that's not going to happen right now. So... [Lin] So, you’re a water girl now, huh? [Chris] I love water, yup! [Lin] So you went to Interlochen… [Chris] Arts Academy [Lin] Arts Academy. Can you tell me about that high school? [Chris] Well, that's uh… They probably did for me for my career, because I am a painter. By my learning the most for me as far as-- I'd say relying on myself to create and to compete with only myself. I mean I love to look at other people work. But I know that I want to compete with myself through the last picture I did and the last painting. I do about a hundred and twenty paintings a year. 3|Page �[Lin] That keeps you pretty busy. Did you have any other Native students in your school? [Chris] Not in school. Not in that school. I was trying to think back. When I was--When I lived in Arizona it was a child. We used to go to these--there was like trading post. And we used to go all the time, my mom would bring me. And I would dance with the local Natives there. You know, I didn't have an outfit to wear or anything. I just had civilian clothes [Lin] So were you involved with the Native community in Grand Rapids? Did you know about the native community? [Chris] I was associated with the Grand Valley Indian Lodge. The Peter's family, I got to know them. One of the first pow wows I went to was in Hastings. Years ago. I mean a long time ago. Oh, golly. I would have to think back. I went to high school with Lisa Shawnesse. Whose now well, she's walked on. That would have been sixty-eight/sixty-nine, eleventh grade. And that's when we'd go up north with Moose Pamp and protest the bones up there. I think they were with Saint Ignace. There was somebody over there with open graves. [Lin] Who'd you go to Saint Ignace with? [Chris] It'd be Lisa Shawnesse. And she was from Petoskey. So, we'd stay there in Petoskey. [Lin] And you mentioned the Peters. [Chris] Ike Peters and May Peters. Both of who have now walked on, and the Peter's girls are still around and Renee is there daughter--Renee Diller. And we call her Wassan. [Lin] Moose Pamp. Do you have any interesting stories about Moose? [Chris] Just that he was very charismatic. He was really a good leader. I wish he'd been able to live longer. I think he would have been fabulous to draw the communities around here, you know better. I think he would have been-- got everybody closer. You know because we don't--At that time, we didn't have really somebody to... that was good leader not only for Pottawatomies, but Odawas and such, and Chippewas. [Lin] Any anecdote. [Chris] No, I just thought he was a really neat person. I knew his mother and sister. And they were all equally as--such a neat family. A lot of power there. You know, he 4|Page �was a good dancer. And I remember his kids when they were born. We used to go down to Martin's all the time. I'd see him there. His family there. We'd watch them grow up I think I saw his son. I don't know how many years ago. It was probably five-six years ago, now. All grown up. So that was a real, wow. See these kids, you know fully dressed out there during the pow wow, dancing. But Moose was a good dancer, too. I remember Detroit Pow wow. He would come out on the dance floor, so great to see him. Yup he'd shake it. So, it was great to see him, you know both sides of his world. That side the being that dances at our pow wows. I get used to [INAUDIBLE] dances. That's just from living in the south. [Lin] You mentioned the Martins. What Martins would you be referring to? [Chris] George Martin and Sid. Pumpkin. And then of course Dave Shenogkwit (?). [Lin] Yup. So after high school, what were you busy doing after high school? [Chris] I worked for a year, at Meijer, I bagged groceries. Did that, and then I went on to Pennsylvania Academy of Fine Art in Philadelphia. Which was a great school except I, personally, could not hack living in the city. The Center City deep. You know a city that's like...You had to walk to school every day, over a mile. And just the inner-city kind of stuff was really tough. Because coming from Interlochen where it's all woods and the biggest scare is to see a raccoon off across the parking lot. Then you go into down town Philadelphia. It's kind of a wakeup call. [Lin] So where did you grow up? [Chris] I grew up here in Grand Rapids. [Lin] In Grand Rapids in the city? [Chris] Mhm, in the city. Until sixth grade. And then I went to Central High School, and then I went to Interlochen for my last year. [Lin] Oh, okay. [Chris] And Interlochen for my art career. I just, I can't express how important that was for me the training there the motivation. That fire that that lit in me there at that school to create. If it wasn't for that school I wouldn't be probably as prolific as I am today. [Lin] So how long did you go to Penn. Fine Arts? [Chris] Well, Interlochen I went for the last year, graduated. Then I went to Philadelphia just for probably a few months. Six months. I'm really just had a terribly difficult 5|Page �problem with hearing the street fights down below the apartment. And just seeing homeless people with their problems on the way to school. With people coming up to you in these bigger cities. You know, I was young. I mean I was just a young girl. I just--I just… [Lin] Did you move out there by yourself? [Chris] Yeah, I moved out to Philadelphia by myself, and I lived right downtown. Right downtown. [Lin] Ah, yes. That is different. [Chris] But I remember my apartment. I had my Navajo rugs spread out, and some of my native things there. It was tough, but you know then I went to Detroit for just a couple of months and lived with a friend of my mom's. Think that's when I went to Detroit Pow Wow. That's where Moose was at the time. And many other people I still know today. That's the first time I saw Floyd Westerman sing. [Lin] So, after you finished there, and you had already worked at Meijers, moved to Detroit. When you come back to Grand Rapids? [Chris] Well, I just stayed down there a couple months, and then I came back. [Lin] And what did you do-- [Chris] And then I came back. And then I went to Kalamazoo Valley Community College. So, I was like, away from home but not. You know it was like just enough far away I felt like the independence. But not right on top of my parents here in Grand Rapids. [Lin] Did you finish at K’zoo? [Chris] No, I didn't. I got married. [Lin] Did you-- Were there Native people that you associated with at Kalamazoo Community College? Was there a group? [Chris] There was never a group that I could find. Which was too bad, because that would have been fun. Nope, not there. I painted Native subjects there. Not people at the school. But just as I painted painting class. I maybe did some, maybe an abstract piece but it had very Native overtones. So, that's--that would have been back in the early ‘70s. And then I started going to more pow wows, and dancing and such. I think I figured I've been dancing forty-two years maybe? Cause of my age now. 6|Page �[Lin] Did your parents, here in Michigan, support you in giving you your Native heritage and teaching about that. Or you did you do that on your own? [Chris] Well, they supported me. Whatever I wanted to do, certainly. But I did a lot on my own. You almost sometimes you have to. If you want something bad enough. You know, whether you want power clothes and get 'em done. You just get them, you know you just do it, you can't just figure that someone is going to hand it to you. [Lin] So did you work any other places? Or did you then just become a full-time artist? [Chris] My, that's a walk down memory lane. Then, I was here with my son. He was born, [INAUDIBLE], ‘74. And I live in Rockford and I had a small store there. Which I sold a lot of crafts, beads, and such. I was raising my son, [INAUDIBLE] Went to pow wows. Did a lot of bead work. [Lin] So the store in Rockford, was it only yours? Or was it a consignment? [Chris] It was just mine. [Lin] Well received in Rockford? [Chris] I think so. Yeah, I mean some people still remember it today. Cause we sold beads. A lot of beads, before there were too many bead stores around. Now, then there seem to be like a lot of bead stores for a while now. Again here in Grand Rapids you don't find too many bead stores. Except for the big ones like Hobby Lobby and Michael's has a few beads too. But I sold a lot of seed beads and stuff that you'd need to go to work with that. [Lin] A lot of visitors in your store? [Chris] Oh, Yeah. Yup. We sold other--we had a lot of baskets. I handled a lot of baskets from up north, Mount Pleasant. From Maggie Jackson and Eli Thomas. We had gone to Canada. Purchased a lot of things that came--back in the store. Sydney Martin's mother, who has a basket. [INAUDIBLE] I have a lot of baskets from her. So, I take a trip down to Hopkins every so often. So, I still have people today if I see them somewhere in Rockford they'll say: "Oh, I still have that basket that I got from your store. I still have that pottery I got from your store." [Lin] When did you close the store? [Chris] It had to have been...I think my son was five. Probably the late ‘70s early 80s and I got married again and moved to Oklahoma. And lived down there for four years. 7|Page �And that was-- I lived in the city. [Lin] Which city? [Chris] In Tulsa. Tulsa, Oklahoma. But it was fun down there because there was so much Native influence down there. You didn't have to go for a dance. Or, you know get together on the weekends with dances. Or we went to peyote meetings too during church. [Lin] How does their dances differ from the ones you experienced up in Grand Rapids, Michigan area? [Chris] Well during the winter they're mostly indoors. But a lot of them were just at the school. And it was almost a ritual. That: "Hey, it's Friday night. [INAUDIBLE] have their dance at the school, let's go!" You know they were small. They were just for that evening, but that's what made it so fun. They were just, you know, right now. Of course, they were inside which most of the dances up here. Of course, in the summer outside. So, I got used to the inside dances just as well. But they were very well attended and of course you have a lot of conglomeration of the same tribes in the same area. Bartlesville, Osage, Oklahoma City would be more of a mix of people. But they were fairly well attended. A lot of drummers and giveaways and stuff. Just like traveling down to Oklahoma City people were always giving away shawls and things to me. You know, nice gifts. Even though they didn't know me. Just simply because I was a visitor. I find that to be really wonderful. You know in turn I've learned to do that with people, I like to give away a lot of stuff if I have it. [Lin] So, what did you down there for four years? [Chris] I was a housewife. But, I really ran a business at the food market. I had a sewing business. And I made a lot of stuff for the market and antiques and such. Also, starting about March. I'd taken different people's order for ribbon work. So, I know it fits for June. ‘Cause June-- You know, sage country, it's all about the three dances that they have down there. So, the dining room table was always laid out with broad cloth, and ribbon work, and all that kind of stuff. [Lin] I was telling Leigh that you could go to a gal in the area for Pottawatomie outfits, and reverse appliqué. So, tell me little bit about your parents here in Grand Rapids. [Chris] Well, my mother grew up in Rockford her family had a grocery store and, that's when she was growing up. Then the grocery store was sold and they had a gift shop, her parents, and they lived right on Monroe Street. 150 Monroe. And, that house is still standing. Then my dad grew up in Howard City. He was very 8|Page �athletic. They both went to Michigan State. It's where they met. So, Michigan State has fond memories for me because of them. And, I have a lot of pictures of them when they were going to school there. So, they met there, and they were married forty-seven years. And then my mom passed away. [Lin] Your dad? [Chris] My dad lived until ‘93. [Lin] Wow. [Chris] He passed away about seven years ago now. [Lin] So, you said he moved--they moved to Tucson 'cause he worked at the University of Arizona. What did do there? [Chris] He was a sports writer for the magazine. He just loved to write. He was the editor and stuff. He did work for, before it burned down in Detroit. When they lived back in Detroit. That round building. I'm trying to think of that round building. [Lin] The towers? [Chris] No. The Rotunda I believe. The Ford Rotunda. Which was, you know, much earlier than you. [Laughter] Yup. He worked there, and I remember as a little girl going there. It burned down for some reason years ago. And when we moved here he worked for the Grand Rapids Press for a while. And then he got a job with the West Michigan Tourist Association. And wrote and edited books for them. And tourist information. [Lin] Brothers? Sisters? [Chris] No brothers, no sisters. [Lin] Wow. No cousins. [Chris] Spoiled only child. No, I'm single at this time. I've been single for a long time now. Since probably the ‘81. [Lin] So, did your parents have brothers and sisters. Did you have a close family? Or were you...? [Chris] My dad was an only child. So, you have an only child, with an only child, and I have an only child. And then my mother had one sister. And we were very close. It was a neat family. Three cousins, an aunt and uncle. And the aunt and uncle 9|Page �live over here for many years. And up in Howard City. And bought a hundred and twenty acres of property. Which they guarded fearlessly. To leave natural and for the animals and wildlife. My uncle was a recycler before it was cool to recycle. I remember as a kid just going there and I'd ask him: "What are you doin' with those cans?" You know. And he would cut the ends of both of the cans and smoosh them. And he'd say: "I'm saving space in the recycling, 'cause I'm gonna take these in these are going to be recycled into something else." And that was way back before we have today, all the messages to recycle. But he-he fiercely guarded that land. And it's set on the Little Muskegon River. They did have some swans. You know, whatever wildlife came there way. [Lin] Is that property still protected? And still there? [Chris] Yeah. But someone still lives there. You know they built their own house. You know and he built a lot of the stuff on that property. But even like the roads going into the house Royce left, they were never paved. They were just two trackers into a real nice house, overlooking the river. He Just wanted to keep it natural. And for years you would go up there where the house was and we'd have to use what they would call the loony bin. Which was the bathroom--which was the outhouse up there. [Lin] Hm. [Chris] And my aunt was an artist too. And she would like to write and paint. She worked for the paper in Greenville and then Rockford. And my mother also was an artist. Although she didn't paint much, which was too bad. 'Cause she really was good at what she did. But she did a lot of embroidery. And, um--so… [Lin] So, who was your big influence in becoming an artist? I realize that a lot of that comes from within, but who set you down the path of going to Interlochen and who inspired you? [Chris] Well, you know, when I was here in Grand Rapids, I didn't really know about Interlochen and then one of my friends, her name was Maureen Bell, she went there. And she was telling me about the school. And she knew that I painted and stuff. She said: "You know, you really should go to Interlochen." And I didn't know what it was. And she was telling me about it. And then over at her parents’ house, her mother's house, there was a self-portrait of her that she did at Interlochen. And I was so impressed with that. I thought: "I gotta know more about this school." So, this was like tenth grade. So, it took part of tenth grade and eleventh grade to get in; do all the paperwork, and then you have to go in, and have interview, and sent all this artwork and such. So, I was able to go, thank goodness, for my senior year. I would have loved to have gone for two years. But the training there--the intensity of it, you know you just learn to um-- 10 | P a g e �just compete with yourself. Not to compete with other artists. But to keep up with yourself. Because I can't express enough. And to be a real critical eye. Not so much to discourage yourself, but be honest with yourself and your creativity. And really say: "Is this right in this painting?" So, I had, actually there, I had painting and drawing. And I had weaving. Because the difference of Interlochen you have four hours a day of art. And you have a major and a minor. [Lin] Wow. [Chris] By the time you get out, at twelfth grade, you are considered to have about the training of a first year in college. [Lin] Interesting. [Chris] It's very intense. So then, of course, after dinner that we'd go back to the art room to keep going at it as far as weaving, or drawing, or whatever we were trying to finish for the end of the year. [Lin] Hm. Was your biological mother or father an artist? [Chris] That I don't know. I heard that my biological father had something to do with building or wood. Maybe, I don't know if he's a carpenter or exactly what. [Lin] Well that's artistic. [Chris] Yeah. [Lin] So growing up as an only child. Having been the daughter of an only child. Did you pull from the native community for family members? Like-- [Chris] I think it was about equal. I had a lot of good friends. Like May Ring or May Peter's I should say. Her maiden name was Ring. And she was just like a mother to me too. So, I was very blessed in knowing so many older women in the community. Which also taught me a lot. Jeanette Sinclair is one, and May. You know it's... I was just very blessed with all the people I knew. I was on the, with Rene, I was on the Native Women's Softball Team too. I can't remember what year that was-- That would be...and I remember I got in trouble for throwing the bat once at the end of the year. When you're supposed to have...I was so excited to hit the ball, and the takeoff that I...'Cause I was never really a fast runner. I just remember that I was so-- I was devastated. I them saying something over the speaker about throwing the bat. I mean, like, I hit the ball and threw the bat down too hard or something. Maybe I didn't throw it at anyone. My gosh. It seems like a million years ago. Well, it kind of was. 11 | P a g e �[Lin] Sports was a big intercity Native kind of past time. Besides softball what do you remember? [Chris] I remember going to some other games, but that was really for me. You know that I remember participating, yeah. Because I was never really sports-y. Although my dad said that I was naturally athletic. And I was a really good swimmer. But, I'm not competitive. So. I probably never would've done it had not Renee been there. I think she was fourteen I probably was. Maybe seventeen? I'd really have to do the numbers to remember. [Lin] Jeanette Sinclair was a key important person in this community. Anything you'd like to share about your experiences? Or hanging out with Jeanette? [Chris] She was just so wonderful and soft-spoken. I mean she was very smart. You know, like you said, she was a key player in this community. She also was one of the first people that taught me how to do bead work at Grand Valley. At Grand Valley Indian Lodge, I had met a lot of people through there. Uh, Native and nonNatives. And the Lodge has changed now. It used to be there was two meetings a month and very well attended. But now I'm not sure what’s going on, you know as far as meetings. But they still have the pow wow. And I was head dancer at that pow wow. And that would have been probably, ’73, ‘74. [Lin] And were they held at the river? [Chris] They initially weren't and I passed the place they wanted a boy scout camp, in Comstock Park. But, you know, as I pass that place now, and I look down at that... I don't know how that pow wow was ever held there. Because, unless they built it up in between then and now-- I don't know if there's room. But it was at this old boy scout camp. And it was plenty at that time, room. And it just seemed bigger at the time. Now, it just doesn't seem big enough. [Lin] The Hastings Pow Wow you mentioned was that still held at the same spot on the river. [Chris] Yeah, Charlton Park, I believe so... [Lin] It's a beautiful place. [Chris] Yeah. [Lin] So did your parents get involved in the Native community at all? [Chris] Not particularly, No. 12 | P a g e �[Lin] But they supported you? [Chris] Oh, absolutely. I mean they'd come to pow wows. But I mean they didn't dance or anything like that. I think they had their own things going on too. No, they supported me totally. [Lin] That's good. Growing up in Grand Rapids, did religion play a big part growing up and maneuvering through urban...? [Chris] Actually, uh… My parents went to South Congregational Church and I was part of the church. You know, I went to Sunday school. Like once in a while. Most of the time I got out of it because I was really bored with all that business. I just couldn't relate to the Christian part. Not that it was bad...it just. It just didn't make any sense to me. And actually, after a while I preferred to sit upstairs and listen to the...upstairs of the preacher...the minister. So, and then I remembered they asked me to join the church. You know how they give you a bible and stuff? I just never did. I just never felt that that was where I was supposed to be. And then on one of my birthdays, I would have to go back and… I remember the church. A tornado went through the church. Well, okay… I remember me getting on my bike. Because I couldn't drive at the time. And I got on my bike from where I lived rode it down to the church, and I looked at, it was very sad to see that that tornado literally went right through the worship area. And the rose windows were left standing at the end. And I was glad, seeing all that stained glass smashed all over the pews were all tangled and it was really sad...horrifying. So, after that I really never had interest at all, going back into the church. But my parents did. You know they still came back for a while if their health permitted it. [Lin] Were they disappointed that you didn't join the church? [Chris] I don't think they were disappointed. I was always a little bit of my own thinker. And they were so wonderful in that they let me be what I wanted to be. And if it just wasn't in my constitution to go...it's like, okay. You know, they didn't force me or anything to go. [Lin] That's good. So that wasn't right for you. Where did you find spirituality or your connection to where you are now? [Chris] I had a lot of teachers at different times in my life. Somewhere in Oklahoma. Somewhere here. All of which really are gone now. They were elderly at the time when I was younger. When I was in early twenties they were elderly. Little Luck was one person that I was close with. He'd stop at the house and we'd go searching for...this was when I was in Rockford...we'd go searching for medicines and he'd teach me things. 13 | P a g e �[Lin] The time you had your store, as an adult? [Chris] Yes. This would have been early seventies. [Lin] Okay. [Chris] And Maggie Jackson. She was from Mount Pleasant. She was also a good basket maker too, her hands would hurt when she worked. Because she was quite elderly. When I knew her too. [Lin] So did you take part in any ceremonies or just traditional practices? [Chris] Not formally. Also, being around the Martins. George Martin and Sid. So, I never like went to up north to ceremonies or anything. Not particularly. [Lin] Now we're on to urban life experiences. Generally speaking. So you had mentioned being part of protests up in Saint Ignace. With Moose Pamp, I believe? [Chris] Mhm. [Lin] Were you involved in any other national organizations that focus on civil rights or any of the other political organizations. [Chris] No just-just native based kinds of things. I remember when we did go to-to that protest up in Mackinac. We protested the, there was a gathering. There were a lot of Natives there. There must have been a hundred and some folks gathered for--and that was when they did the reenactment at the fort where our people, not Indians, dress up like Indians and then they reenact for the tourists the takeover fort. And then we also protested on the other side at Saint Ignace. And I remember that was probably the scariest part when the state police came and they had their rifles out and their dogs, to remove us from that property. So, it didn't last long and stuff. And we all dispersed and went back over and gathered at the park across. I supported A.I.M and some of the members. And then of course as I held on to the radio and TV with Wounded Knee and that take over. But then I was back in college, trying to do that...balance. You know, figuring out what am I gonna do for my life. And that kind of thing. So, about that... [Chris] [Lin] Any other A.I.M activities later on...or? In Grand Rapids area? [Chris] Yeah. I'm trying to think who came here. Uh, do you remember who was here? I'm trying to remember names. Uh, Debbie had... 14 | P a g e �[Lin] Dennis Banks. [Chris] Yeah, Dennis Banks was here. So we got to hang out briefly with him at the pow wow. Talk with him. [Lin] During the [INAUDIBLE] or was it before? [Chris] This might have been before. This was quite a while ago. I would say ten years ago? Ten/twelve years ago, maybe? I was trying to think how long it'd been since she'd walked on...So, three years...four years... [Lin] Maybe five? [Chris] Five. So probably six/seven years before that. And then I was on the board of directors too for the North American Indian Center. When that was here...with Levi. And circle other people which I still know. I should have done a time line because I forgot exactly what years I [INAUDIBLE] was... [Lin] Would you say that the North American Indian Council? [Chris] Indian Center. [Lin] Indian Center. [Chris] It was downtown for a while. And then we moved over on to Straight Street. [Lin] Lexington? [Chris] The complex, yeah. And it lasted a few years. [Lin] I mean how is that different from the Inter-tribal Council? Was that before or after? [Chris] That would have been after. Grand Rapids Inter-tribal Council. I was in and out of there. As far as an artist at the time. [Chris] Terry Bussey(?)[INAUDIBLE] had...who… I think she's from up north originally. She has started The Great Lakes Indian Press. And I had illustrated some the of books that people wrote. Unfortunately, they were never published because that was dispersed over there. [Lin] Where are those books? What was it the north... [Chris] Uh, Great Lakes Indian Press. This was when Wag had the place...had the place 15 | P a g e �over there. At the school. Lexington School. [Lin] These books... [Chris] Grand Rapids Inter-tribal Council was what that was called I believe. [Lin] Right. [Chris] And then, as an off shoot from that, there was a Great Lakes Indian Press. Which was a separate, it was connected, but it was separate. And Terry Bussey ran that. A couple books were published. Then they got to these children's books. I was asked to illustrate two, which I did. So, most of the illustrations were done. And then the Inter-tribal dispersed. So whatever happened to those drawings, I don't know. I think Levi picked up being the head over there for a while. And then that didn't work. And so then it was better just to start a whole new Indian Center. And that's when he started the Indian Center downtown here. [Lin] The North American Indian Center? [Chris] Mhm. Yup. And then I was on that board of directors till about the last year. [Lin] You were on board for the North American Indian Center? [Chris] Yep. [Lin] Who were you on the board with? [Chris] Well, let's see. Tony Deal (?), Debbie worked as secretary...See here's the memory thing again… Corton Bates(?), there was a fella named Bob--but I didn't know him. He was actually from like Detroit. He wasn't native. I remember there's quite a few people that would come and go. You know, some would serve for a while and then they would go. Linda...I'm trying to think of the last name. Can't remember right now. [Lin] So what type of activities or services did the North American Indian Center provide? [Chris] We were under the wing of Goodwill, and did they the book keeping. Kinda oversaw the finances and the goings on of that. Some of it was...Unfortunately, we didn't have a tremendous amount of money. But we could help some people out financially. And it was very common to have someone call and say: "Hey, my heats gonna get shut off...Can we get help?" And you know, we'd be able to maybe cover the heat bill, or a new piece of furniture. Somebody didn't have a 16 | P a g e �dresser, or shoes. You know, that kind of thing, small stuff. I mean we couldn't buy somebody a car. But, you know, sometimes just having a hundred bucks worth of groceries helps a lot. There are so many people in need--Native people in need. So that was one of those projects, and then Levi had another fellow that worked that would help people find jobs. [Lin] Was it difficult for Native Americans to find jobs? [Chris] Well yeah, I think it was. Because maybe lack of education in some respects, or addiction. And to hold on to them. But, this fellow was an advocate and would help. So, I think that there was some good done there. [Lin] Can you tell me about any positive experience that made you feel best about being Native American and living in Grand Rapids? [Chris] Well, certainly the camaraderie and the friends and being able to be spiritually connected with other people. And just like knowing this much. Or where I was taught we used cedar too; and a fry pan and a piece of metal. So, it's just nice to be able to use that stuff and not think twice about it. And you have to explain it to somebody. You know, that kind of thing...That's really nice. [Lin] Do you think that there is a greater sense of community now? Or was it better back then? Or is just different? [Chris] It's different because now, with the tribes being recognized again, that has made a difference. You have different tribal members from their different tribes kinda of like with an NHBP, you have that going on that side of town. Ottawa is over here I believe in another building. They have their own things that they have to accomplish. So, back when I grew up we didn't have all those different tribes having that much influence. Almost everybody gathered at Grand Valley Indian Lodge, 'cause that was such a mix of people--Native and non-Native. That was in my time when I grew up nice, because everybody gathered and we learned different things about different people because there were programs. [Chris] So now that you have these different people and everybody's a little bit more separate--then we come together at dances and pow wows. [Lin] Were there any negative experiences being Native in an urban setting? [Chris] Growing up in school I was always darker, my hair was darker. There was all that business. People doing the war whoop. But probably one of the things that set me back was my son's name on his birth-certificate is Two Eagles Marcus. (?) When I was in Oklahoma, when I first registered him for school, when he was in kindergarten. So, we did all the registration. He went to school for a couple 17 | P a g e �weeks, and all of a sudden, the teacher calls me in kind of sheepishly. And she says: "Would you please go back to the office and resign your son in for his schooling?" And I said: "What? We did all that?" She said: "Well, I'm not supposed to tell you this, but they threw all his paperwork away because they thought it was a joke." And those were her exact words. Because of the name, it was a traditional name. So that would have been in the seventies...seventyfour...late seventies. So even then...Then we have this new thing with-- I think it's Facebook. Some of these Native names, traditional names, are getting thrown off because people think they're fake. Including my son, again, got thrown off. He had to redo all of his signing up for... [Lin] So you lived in Tulsa and you brought him back and registered him for Grand Rapids. [Chris] Mhm. [Lin] So where did he go to school? [Chris] He went to Rockford. [Lin] So what was signing him up like? [Chris] Well I signed up with his real name, but then we just called him Ben in school. Which is sad. [Lin] So you change his name? [Chris] Not legally, no. Just a nickname. But his name legally is Two Eagles, and always has been. And he goes by that now. [Lin] Where did Ben come from? [Chris] [Chris] His grandfather [INAUDIBLE] was named Ben. So, we called him Benj when he was little and Ben when he was older. It just cut through everything. And a little kid can't fight back. I remember he was about four and I had let his hair grow really long and it was black. And the kids in our neighborhood rubbed gum in it, and made him cry. Of course, it was down to his waist. He then wanted it all cut off. So that was really upsetting. But, I thought: "He's so young, he doesn't have any tools to fight with. He's just a little kid." So, we did eventually cut his hair off. It was still kind of long, like Jack Kennedy's hair. But, it wasn't down to his waist or anything. [Lin] How did that make you feel cuttin' his hair? 18 | P a g e �[Chris] It was terrible. I cried and cried and cried. That I had to do that. But, I wanted, what I had thought at the time, was best for him. I mean I couldn't be there all the time to scold the other kids. Or to explain to them, to stand guard. I couldn't. I thought: "Well how are we going to make it through this growing up without a lot of scars?" So, that's what we did. I regretted it though, I felt terrible having to cut it. But he wanted it cut. He just came in tears and they had ruined some of his hair too. Why they did it? I can only guess. [Lin] What would be your guess? [Chris] Well, full black hair down to a boy's bottom. So prejudice, I'm sure it was prejudice. [Lin] Are there negative experiences being Native? [Chris] Some here. But we had more problems in Oklahoma. 'Specially some of the small places, western Oklahoma. Maybe not getting waited on in restaurants. [Lin] So you mentioned that there are a larger number of tribes represented in a bigger population. Why do you think that there's more racism down there, when there is such a large number of Native. [Chris] Well they intermix the play between the police. As I learned more I didn't really want my son growing up down there. Because he is very, very Native looking; black hair, brown eyes, and real dark. There were a lot of stories about young men getting into jail for literally nothing. Clashes with the police, especially in some of the smaller towns. The boys never come out of jail. Somehow they're found police say [INAUDIBLE] themselves or something. All kinds of stories like that. I thought that maybe we, at the time, if we did move back that maybe he wouldn't be as immersed in the culture, but he at some point could find his way back to what he wanted. When he was old enough to defend himself. And stand up for himself as far as problems with other people. [Chris] Especially as a young kid, down in Oklahoma we did have racial problems. First of all, the name in school. And, not getting waited on in restaurants--that happened more than once. It really wasn't too long ago when you, if you were Native down there in New Mexico or Oklahoma that you were asked to sit in the back of the restaurant. Not quite up front, you know. [Lin] So he found his way back to his culture? [Chris] Well, he has. He goes by the name Two Eagles now. He runs his business with that name, and he's very well accepted. He's actually memorable to people because he is unusual. So, that turned out well. 19 | P a g e �[Lin] Do you see a shift in the way we are raising our children? Case in point, my mom didn't raise me in the native way and probably thought the same. We are given the tools that you need to grow up, you'd find your way back and regain some of those things. You see a shift in that now a days? [Chris] Not so much here. It's partly just having access to cultural things. If this were Oklahoma City there's a dance some place every Friday night. Yeah, it’s just a Friday night thing. Not a two day pow wow. But, it's just to hear those drums. And just to be able to get out there and dance informally. If you want to dress with everything, you know your dance clothes. Or if you just want to shall dance. I mean it's just--be there! Be part of it! Have a fifty-fifty raffle and just be part of all of that. [Lin] Huh, that's interesting. An informal gathering. Where I think we have so many formal gatherings. [Chris] Right. I believe some of these are put on by the Oklahoma Pow Wow Club But it's still, "so and so is going to have a couple drums at this gymnasium and you just show up. There is a lot of that out there. Especially, in some of the Bartlesville. Next week is [INAUDIBLE]. Or next week is, you know, some gymnasium. [Lin] I think we need to do that here. [Chris] I think that would be great! Especially on New Year’s Eve. That's a tough one for Natives. Do you end up at a bar? Where can you go where you don't have alcohol? [Lin] Right [Chris] You can still have an awful lot of fun. A lot of food. You can't have Natives without food. [Lin] There use to be a Y in Grand Rapids. But now I think the New Year’s sobriety pow wows are quite a distance. And New Year’s Eve-- Well there's a toss-up. [Chris] Yeah, we have that to contend with in Oklahoma. I talk about Oklahoma a lot. You know, I was there for four years. You have a little more-- You well have some influence from the Osage they have there. Tribal dances all in June. And each community hosts one dance. You know, that's a big deal. And they start getting ready years before--when you see an Osage drum passing it is so beautiful and there is a lot of pageantry to it. It's amazing. They bring horses up to the dance arena and give them away. With broad cloth blankets and hundred- 20 | P a g e �dollar bills attached to them. I've seen it. It's amazing. [Lin] So if you could summarize into one to three highlights about who you are as an urban Native, what would you want to pass on to the next generations? [Chris] I think that the red road is a good road. But it's a hard road. Especially if you want to remain traditional. I've seen somethings change that are supposed to be tradition that are different now, not so much for the good. I do have my own personal things that drive me crazy. Such as, I look around and see dream catchers everywhere. The early ones were so simple, and made correctly. I mean when I can go to the local gas station and buy a dream catcher lighter for a cigarette. It just kind of waters the whole thing down. And it makes me sad. [Lin] What other things do you see that have been appropriated? [Chris] Probably the use of wearing skirts as opposed to pants. Skirts with women and traditional things. I think when we need to wear a skirt, we need to wear a skirt. And not hid pants under it. I've heard people say: "Well that's just progress." Well to me that's not. It isn't. It defeats the whole purpose of wearing a skirt in our traditional ceremonies. So, that's just a couple things. Some of the culture things that are changed-- There's a natural way to change. We've changed culturally because of materials available, and I'm just speaking of dance clothes. Any cultural progresses with what's available. You know, its stores and trade. Some of it's okay with me. I don't want to sound really snotty about the whole thing. There are some things that have changed because of laziness and some things that naturally change. And it's part of the natural cultural change as it's changed from two-hundred years ago--what we use. There's different examples of it. I think a culture can change without being rude to the culture that came before, some of the traditions that came before. I guess what's coming to my mind is with our little boys and young men when they wear their roaches. We always had roach spreaders for [INAUDIBLE] bone, and then silver. Some local boys used CD's as a roach spreaders. I think that's neat. Because that's part of what they grew up with and that's not insulting the old ways. [Chris] That's just change and that's an evolutionary thing. And it's natural. But there are some things that, to me, are like a slap in the face. Like the use of dream catchers every place you turn around. And they're made the wrong way, they look wrong, they're not made with any prayers. That hurts me to see that. [Lin] You mentioned the red road. Could you clarify what the red road is? [Chris] It's probably more traditional. Not everything is easy. There's is a lot of things in Native culture that are easy but they're good. When we start off talking today and in other places. You know we start with off prayers. We start off with burning 21 | P a g e �cedar, smoking people off. It takes extra time, it takes someone else to do it. It takes someone puttin' themselves there to actually doctor people. When you smoke people off. It takes extra time and not everybody wants to take that time. It doesn't fit in with the schedule, so to speak. Probably the sobriety. So many Native people are depressed and falling back on addictions is very prevalent. With poverty or family problems. It's more so in the Native culture. With suicides and addiction. So that's hard to pull out of that. That take a person that really wants to, and somebody that really can help them. A lot of spiritual things have to go along with that. I hope that people can pull out if they want to. I hope that when they do there is somebody there to help them, pull them up. [Lin] Do you think that there is support in the Grand Rapids area? [Chris] Yes, I do. It might not be the easiest to find some days, but I do think that there is support. There's certain individuals even that you know we all could come in contact with will take the time to talk with you or to counsel people. They don't necessarily have to be through a program. You know, just certain people in my past. Who took the time to counsel me, or say a good word. Uplift somebody in some way, and not dwell on negative things. But the good things and the positive things. [Lin] So is there anything I didn't ask you that you want to talk about and share? [Chris] Probably when I'm driving home I'll think of a hundred. [Lin] Well, you mentioned positive things about being Native in the urban area. What would you say would be some of the positives about living in the urban area? [Chris] Well, I think through some of the- We're lucky here in Grand Rapids we have access to so many pow wows that are close. Both at the rez up in Mount Pleasant. We have Fulton. And then we have some of the centers like in HBP. We have the Odawa, Ottawas, and so tribal members can see count through those agencies. [Chris] And HBP, the clinic for instance, with behavioral health and for medical help you just have to be Native to go. You don't have to be in that tribe. Which is a really great mission for that tribe to put out that money to help, and get the grants. That's a lot of work. So, I think that those are positive things, if city Indians can find that those exist. And be able to get there and work with those programs. That support, I hope, many people. Because when I first grew up here in Grand Rapids none of those were available here. None of those programs. They were in Oklahoma, back in the seventies. But know that there here through Grand Rapids that's great. 22 | P a g e �[Lin] So, anything else? Like you said, you'll remember on your way home. [Chris] I'm sure… I can talk for hours sometime. I wasn't sure...hopefully I've helped you with… you know...talking and being a guinea pig. I don't mind. [Lin] I want to thank you for being with us today and sharing. [Chris] My pleasure. [Lin] And, I'm sure we'll so some follow up. A very interesting story. Do you have any suggestions on who we should interview? [Chris] Well, I would think Jeff Davis would be a good person. And Betty if possible. There are a few people at the clinic. Roslyn Johnson, the Head of the Health Department. She's from First Nation. There again, there is somebody that's just starting to think about traditional healing over there. There again someone that has to juggle the bureaucracy of the laws of health care and all the things that involve giving somebody a shot, even. Plus balancing the traditional ways, too, over there. Maybe having traditional healers come in, so there is person that has to work with both. Both heads of the spectrum. I hope that with some people, mainly, well with everyone, but mainly, probably city Indians, is that there is a balance there between the traditional ways and trying to function in an Indian society and follow those rules too. Which, to me it means that internal should even be more of a presence in their life, and how to live two roles. Like a turtle does, more meaningful. When you understand what's behind that. Because most of the Indians have to balance. Tremendous balance. Walking up, following the rules... Also, following traditional practices even. Having things in the car that may be things hanging from the mirror and stuff that might not be acceptable to somebody else. But is very traditional to Native people. Or, dress. Something people wear might not… to Native people we need to do that, to wear that, or have that, but to outside world that's not a good thing. I have known of situations, not me personally, it didn't happen to, but where we have burned smudge and somebody thought it was marijuana. [Chris] To Native people smudge is such a smell that is so practical, it's always there it's spiritual. It's part of your life. It's not anything bad. But if one isn't use to it, you could get in trouble. That would be a couple comments I would make. [Lin] Alright, well thank you. [Chris] You're welcome. [Lin] Belinda Bardwell, signing off. 23 | P a g e � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Gi-gikinomaage-min Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Native American Advisory Council Grand Valley State University. Kustche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Interviews with members of Grand Rapids' urban Native American population collected as part of the Gi-gikinomaage-min Project: Defend Our History, Unlock Your Spirit. Translated from Anishinaabemowin, the original language of this area, Gi-gikinomaage-min means "We are all teachers." This is the name our project team choose to convey to the Native American community that through our stories and experiences, we are all teachers to someone. As we share those stories, we are allowing for our next generations to experience the past. Grand Rapids’ Native American community grew dramatically in the last half of the 20th century as a result of a little-known federal program that still impacts American Indian lives today. Called the Urban Relocation Program, it created one of the largest mass movements of Indians in American history. The full scope of this massive social experiment and its impact on multiple generations of Native Americans remains largely undocumented and unexplored. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015/2016 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Gi-gikinomaage-min Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Indians of North America Indians of North America--Michigan Indians of North America--Education Potawatomi Indians Bode'wadmi Ojibwa Indians Anishinaabe Navajo Indians Dine'e Cherokee Indians Tsagali Aniyunwiya Archaeology Mound-builders Hopewellian culture Indian arts--North America Personal narrativse Grand Rapids (Mich.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-10 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-10_Stone_Christine_Marcus_0215 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stone, Christine Marcus Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-02-15 Title A name given to the resource Christine Marcus Stone interview (video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Christine Marcus Stone is a painter of Navajo, Scottish, and English descent, who was born in Tuscon, Arizona and moved to Michigan at a young age. In her interview, she disucsses her arts education, her personal and family history, and the Grand Rapids Native community. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Bardwell, Belinda (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Navajo Indians Dine'e Personal narrativse Grand Rapids (Mich.) Indians of North America Indians of North America--Michigan Indian arts--North America Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Gi-gikinomaage-min Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e7f44ec977048fb668b2003ec615e376.mp4 6acb643cc6ada924a414eddadf96f089 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e972b3adb1cd5be457d83c410d38c494.pdf 4be6ca0b6327707aee5137b99c243e21 PDF Text Text Christl, Roland Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II Interviewee’s Name: Roland Christl Length of Interview: (52:07) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Roland Christl of Richmond, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay now start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and when were you born?” October 29th, 1924 Berrien Springs in the farm house that I stayed in till I retired. Interviewer: “Alright and– Now born in the 1920s and of course the depression starts not too long afterwards, did your family own that farm?” (00:39) Yes. Interviewer: “Okay and you’re able to keep it through the depression?” Oh yes, well that’s your livelihood you can raise about anything you need besides salt and pepper. Interviewer: “Okay, so you didn’t have– Some people got foreclosed on and that kind of thing but you kind of made it through. How many children were in your family?” There was four of us. Interviewer: “And where were you in line?” �Christl, Roland I was the last born. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and how long did you go to school?” I went through high school and graduated. Interviewer: “Okay, and when did you graduate from high school?” 1943. Interviewer: “Okay, now do you remember how you heard about Pearl Harbor?” I didn’t know anything about Pearl Harbor, you know as a kid “What’s Pearl Harbor?” You know, is it a harbor of the United States? You know I had no idea where Pearl Harbor was. Interviewer: “Okay, but do you remember how you first heard the news? Okay, at what point did you understand what it meant, a couple days later?” (1:50) Sure, after you find out where Pearl Harbor was and what really actually happened. Interviewer: “Okay, now when the war started did things change at all in your community or with the people you knew?” Well nothing that I know of because I’m like 15 years old, you know and you’re more interested in what you’re doing than what the country’s doing really I think. Interviewer: “Okay, now I mean did you have a radio, could you listen to news and things?” Oh sure we had a radio. �Christl, Roland Interviewer: “Now did you consider– Did you know a lot of people who started to enlist in the military or get drafted?” Well sure, most of the people that went to school see we had 35 in our class so you know everybody pretty well, even in the other classes. Our neighbors, you know they had, oh I don’t know, four or five boys I think, four of them went into the Air Force and learned how to fly. So we knew all that. Interviewer: “Okay, now did you have rationing?” Sure we had rationing and things on the farm, you know you have your own butter, my mother used to make butter and take it down to Herman’s grocery store and sell it to him, then he would put it in saleable sizes and sell it to the people, and so farm is– When you live on a farm we had meat stamps that would expire, people were upset when they saw those expired meat stamps “What, you let those expire?” And they’re short on meat, they get a little bit every day. Interviewer: “So what kind of stock did you have on your farm?” (3:57) Well everything that we needed to support a family really, had chicken, we had cows, we had horses and no tractors at that time. We did get a tractor in ‘39 it seemed like, or was it ‘41? I think it was ‘39. Interviewer: “Okay, alright so you had some animals and then what were you growing on your farm?” Well we grew mostly things for the livestock and then fruit, it was a big fruit area here and mostly fruit. Anything from strawberry to– You know and you’re 15 you’re out there picking every time something out there starts to develop, you’re out there working with it. Interviewer: “Did you get an extra gas ration because you were running a farm?” �Christl, Roland My brother went into the service, he was drafted in ‘41– Or before ‘41, for a year, In a year– “In a Year I’ll be Back, Darling” The song but soon as Pearl Harbor happened well then you’re in there for the duration, but he had a model A Ford car and he left it to me. So we both– My dad had a sticker– I think he had an A sticker but my tire size was sort of over sized, I could buy a new tire, my dad could only buy a used tire. Interviewer: “Alright, so you did reasonably well there, now did you only have one brother?” Two brothers. Interviewer: “Okay, and then what– Was the other brother younger than you or older– Older he was older than you.” Both older, yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, and did he go in the service?” (5:43) Well my eldest brother– I was four of, he got several– Two bad operations that disqualified him and he became a dentist. My second brother was the one that was drafted for a year and he became an officer and he was working in California install– Overseeing the installations of the anti aircraft in California, making sure if the Japanese try to land they have to have something over there to shoot with, and so after that expired– You know that threat expired, then he went to France and became a major, yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, now as for you, did you have a deferment because you were working on the farm?” Oh absolutely, there were several boys that farmed and had deferments so I could’ve stayed out but I decided well I’m gonna go in, see what happens, see what’s going on. �Christl, Roland Interviewer: “Okay, so was it you were just kind of curious at that point or?” Well of course I knew what’s going on, we had friends and I was in the service and I said “Well other than just loafing around, you know and–” I said, told the draftsperson, I said “I think I wanna go in and see if I can be of any use in there– Out there.” Interviewer: “Alright, so I’m sure they’re happy to take you at that point.” Oh absolutely. Interviewer: “Alright, so when did you enter the service then?” Well– It’s right there, that was April 11th, 1945. Interviewer: “Alright, and where did they send you for basic training?” (7:47) Camp Robinson, Arkansas. Interviewer: “Okay, and how did they get you down there?” More than likely by train I think. Interviewer: “Okay, alright so you don’t remember much about the train ride?” No, not the train ride. Interviewer: “Okay, so what was Camp Robinson like?” �Christl, Roland Well it was the middle of summer and it was really hot and I was pretty fit, I played basketball in school and I was pretty fit and working on the farm I was pretty able to do about anything and so other than being hot and tiring it was endurable. Interviewer: “Okay, now what about the discipline part, what was that like?” Well nothing like you see in the movies or on the T.V that’s for sure, had no problem with that. Interviewer: “Okay, so the drill sergeants were okay?” Reasonable guys, yeah. Interviewer: “Alright now were you used to taking orders, I mean was that easy or hard to do?” Well it was pretty much a unit order, it wasn’t an individual order and I was squad leader so I had a few benefits and– Like no KP. Interviewer: “So how did you wind up a squad leader?” (9:20) I guess I was tall, they put all the tall men in the front and the small guys in the back and we go out to the rifle range, we’ll do six miles and the little guys had to run sometimes to keep up. “Slow down, slow down!” Well we’re 2nd platoon, 1st platoon is already getting ahead of us, we’re trying to keep up with them and the little guys in the back are hollering “Slow down!” Interviewer: “Alright, how long did you spend at Camp Robinson?” I think it was 11 week basic, a long basic, a long basic because I was training for a replacement now. So I was trained in mostly all the hand weapons. Interviewer: “So you’re expecting to be just a replacement infantryman at that point?” �Christl, Roland Absolutely. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and did you figure you were going to go to Japan?” No, no I had no idea until I got to Fort Ord and I said “Well, must be going across the Pacific.” Interviewer: “Okay, of course the war in Europe ended while you were in training.” Right. Interviewer: “Cause that’s in early May so Japan is about the only place left to keep fighting. Okay, so you finish your 11 weeks, now by the time you finish that, let’s see had Japan surrendered yet or were they just about to?” Well they surrendered in– Interviewer: “They surrendered in August.” (10:53) August 15th. Interviewer: “Yeah, so do you remember where you were then?” I was still in the states I hope, they– We stayed there, I don’t know when we left Camp Robinson but then we went down to Hampton, Alabama– I can’t remember the name there, then from there we went to Fort Ord, California, we didn’t ship out there either cause now the war’s over and they needed to figure out where to put these guys so they sent us up to– I think, Lewis– Interviewer: “There’s Fort Lewis in Washington.” �Christl, Roland It was in Washington, and then we shipped out from there. One day while we were there they had us file out and the officer came out and said “We need 1,000 volunteers.” Now what? What do you think goes on in your mind “Are they gonna send 1,000 back home? Are they gonna keep 1,000 here?” And so we didn’t know until one of the fellows that lived in Eau Claire, which is about five miles from Berrien Springs, but I knew he volunteered, so I didn’t know until I came back and talked to him, they all went to Germany, took them all the way across the country, sent him to Germany. Yeah, so we went and ended up in Japan. Interviewer: “Okay, now how did they get you to Japan?” On a troopship the–[unintelligible]? A troopship, forget the name of it though. Interviewer: “Okay, now do you have a sense of how many men were on this ship?” I think it was the General [unintelligible], I have no idea. Interviewer: “Okay, and what was the ocean voyage like?” (13:03) Well it was not too bad until we got out of Puget Sound then all– We said “Well this isn’t bad at all.” You know, but we were still in Puget Sound, when we got out in the ocean then it started rolling and then we got, I don’t know, maybe half way across and run into a storm. We were– You look over the rail and the boat wasn’t going through the water, it was just practically standstill because of the head winds I guess. So they called for a change of course and they went south and you could see the boat going through the water. We got close to Japan, they spotted a mine so everybody battle stations and they shot until they said “Stop shooting.” Yeah and a fella who worked in the mess hall, a Navy personnel, and I got acquainted he was– And then there was another friend who ran a 20 millimeter gun and then just kept shooting. We couldn’t see the mine, they couldn’t either but they’re all shooting in that one direction and so it was kind of interesting to see how they operate that. They got a barrel 20 millimeter and that’s a pretty good size and they had an extra barrel and a container and I don’t know if this was water or what it is, probably water, they shoot the canister, empty, they take the [unintelligible] that barrel hole, drop �Christl, Roland it in this container and it starts boiling. Then you get the other barrel, snap it in, put another container on there, start shooting again, keep doing that until they make the order to stop but it was very interesting to see how that was operated, you know and then not long before that we stopped another mine, it wasn’t all the far away from the one. On the way over during the storm in the third hole we were getting leaks through the seams they said– The G.Is “Just stay down there, just stay down there.” Well they didn’t stay down there, wasn’t my hole but I’d say they come up and they couldn’t stay down there, water seeping in, if that broke open any larger than that you know it’d be a lot of water gushing in. Interviewer: “Alright, so where did you land, in Japan where did you go?” We went to Osaka and couldn’t get off because there was a bunch of Marines out there on that area, there was no place for the soldiers, the Army and so we stayed on the boat. Well that was 28 days before we ever got off that thing, a very long time. Interviewer: “So how did you spend your time?” (16:15) Well everybody has a job doing something or other, we were to clean up down in the mess hall and they had cafeteria style of course but when you have– When you have mess you have a line of people going in the mess hall and it goes up this ladder and up that ladder and down this way and that way, very very long line and so we’d get down there early and eat and then because we’re in clean up we’d get in the line again that’s like two and half hours later, you know we’re hungry again, go through the line a second time. First time you gotta get your card punched, second time we’re in clean up so they let us through, we ate standing up. Interviewer: “Okay, so did they let you go ashore at all or were you just–” No, we didn't go ashore at all. Interviewer: “Okay, so now did they finally let you go ashore in Osaka or did you go somewhere else?” �Christl, Roland Got to go to Osaka, from there it must have been Yokohama, got to a big port there and we got off and we were in the Tokyo area now. Interviewer: “Okay, now did you have a unit assignment yet or were you just still a replacement?” Trying to think, I got into the 98th Division, I was 8th Army. Somewhere I got mixed up but anyway I got into the infantry there for a while and they needed a truck driver, well I drove truck on the farm and so I got a truck driver’s license and drove. Well the 98th Division was made up of people from the New York area, never saw a day of combat, floating reserve through the whole war. The fella that was driving the truck going back home I took his place, he was a bus driver from New York. Interviewer: “Now what was it like to drive a truck around Tokyo?” (19:00) Well, as long as you’re following someone not too bad, sometimes these roads were only about as wide as this room, the truck has got this much space on either side and the people are riding bicycles on both sides. So you know you drive it the best you can, I guess if something happens it happens you keep going, it was some– And then we went to the Yokohama– Forget what they call it where they had most of the supplies came in and they’d have supplies backed up, you wouldn’t believe. Barrels, 55 gallon barrels like from here to that other building, about 10 feet high and about that wide, two of you, you know and they had motor ships I mean a lot of stuff comes off and we’d go in there for supplies and they’d load our trucks and take it back to camp. Well after that– Interviewer: “Well, now just a little more here, what did Tokyo itself look like at that point?” Tokyo downtown wasn’t too bad, they didn’t really destroy it because of imperial palaces, they’re located really right there. They didn’t drop any bombs on that but later on when I got �Christl, Roland transfered over to Sugamo prison, all you had was cement slabs here and cement slabs there and I got a picture of desolations. Unbelievable, just you know they have these houses, smaller houses, even probably the bigger ones they’ve all got these sliding doors, you know with sort of a paper windows in them and very very fragile buildings. So when the many pom-poms hits I mean it goes, the fire extinguishing system they had, we had one there at 720th and we had a fire there and so they called the Japanese fire department and we had a reservoir or a tank a little bigger than a swimming pool probably about 10 feet deep, concrete, full of water, that was their water for fighting fires. They drive their truck up there, throw a hose in, start the pumper up and then that’s the way they fight the fires. Well when they got all the water pumped out, you look down there in the bottom, there’s a napalm bomb there and it had busted open and the napalm was kind of run out on the bottom, but if that thing were to hit ground and splattered that whole camp would’ve– It was a Japanese military camp at one time, we took over– Took it over and lived there and seeing that down there if it hit bare ground it would’ve splattered and that’s what happens, you know they hit a residential area, nothing left, burned the whole thing down. Interviewer: “Now how long did you spend as a truck driver?” (22:19) Oh not too long because they needed someone in the telephone section so they transferred me to the telephone section. Well when I got to the 720th MPs I worked in the telephone section, then they transferred me to Sugamo prison. Well if you know wire, you know electrics wire so they transferred me to the electrical department. Well then they needed some refrigeration work so they sent me to a battalion of engineers to learn refrigeration. So I did learn refrigeration and then I was discharged as a refrigeration service man. Interviewer: “Okay, now let’s back up a little bit, let’s go back. You had your initial assignment as a truck driver for the 98th Division and then you switch and your next unit is–” The telephone. Interviewer: “Okay that’s– For which that was 720th?” �Christl, Roland No, that’s still the Army. Interviewer: “But it’s still the 98th Division at that point?” 98th Division, yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, and how long did you work telephones?” I don’t know, I got my T-5 there, they just jump from private to T-5, they were gonna jump me to sergeant but, I don’t know they stopped it. Interviewer: “They stopped promotions after a while?” Well they stopped promotions for a while, I really don’t know how long I stayed there but– Interviewer: “Were you just a telephone operator or did you lay wire?” (24:05) No, no– Yeah, I even climbed poles, I was up on a pole we were supposed to tag all the wire that came in there, before we got there the first bunch of G.Is got there they strung all these wires and so we got all these wires up there, I went up the pole I’m gonna tag all these lines. Well so you have a double E8 phone, you hook it in, crank the crank, and see who was there “Colonel Bork here. Colonel Bork, who are you?” “Well I’m Corporal Christl, I’m up here on the pole checking these lines.” “Tag that line, never get on it again.” He had a private line to– Interviewer: “America’s headquarters?” America’s headquarters. So one day they come in, called me into the day room, they said “Well we’re looking for an honor guard for General MacArthur, and would you like to accept that?” Well probably would’ve been interesting to accept that but I didn’t and– Too much spit and polish man, you know you shine them every minute you were up there and it was kind of �Christl, Roland interesting and I always thought I probably would’ve done nice and seen him, maybe even spoken with him, you know. Interviewer: “Did you ever see MacArthur or see MacArthur’s car?” No. Interviewer: “Okay, alright so you’re stringing telephone wires and then how do you end up changing jobs?” From, well when I got out of the– When I got into the 720th I’m still in the telephone section, you know it was just four of us and we didn’t have much to do because most of the other wire stuff was all installed already. There was one line between us and some prison that they were renovating and over out there stringing wires to get line from where we were to the prison and all of a sudden here comes all these Army trucks full of prisoners, and we’re backed up against the building and the road’s about like from here to your window and these guys are kind of swatting see if they could hit us, you know all the prisoners. I won’t tell you what color most of them were but– Interviewer: “Okay, so these were American servicemen who were prisoners?” (27:05) All American servicemen. Interviewer: “Okay, so people who had been acting up in Japan and got themselves arrested.” That’s right, we had a few people come from Europe– European campaign that had bad time, now if you have bad time in the military after you get you, you gotta make up that bad time. So we had people over there and couldn’t get them to do anything, they did what they wanted mostly. Sergeants in charge they give up and there wasn’t really that much for them to do and most of what we did have to do they just didn’t do it. So now comes time to send stuff home and �Christl, Roland anything Japanese you could send home, the machine gun, anything. This fella that was in– I think it was our group, saw him all the time, he was sending home boxes full of Japanese military stuff, a flare gun, and at the warehouse you could get that stuff and no one said anything about it. Interviewer: “Alright, so well why did you change from the 98th Division over to the MP unit?” Well the 98th Division was coming back to the states and I hadn’t been there very long so I’m not going back with them. Interviewer: “Okay, those guys most of the rest of them had been in the division longer during the war itself and so they rotate home but you’re still there. Okay and now they gotta rotate you into a different unit and so you wind up with the MPs.” Right. Interviewer: “Okay, and then how long did you stay with that MP company?” (29:02) Well I really can’t say because we had that bad fire and the building was completely practically destroyed and the colonel came out and– I think he’s a colonel, and– But he was intoxicated “Someone get the hose on that fire!” “Well we’re waiting for the Japanese fire department to come.” “I don’t care, call them again.” Well after him coming out like that he got transferred to Sugamo prison. So then he had the MP battalion overstaffed, so they wanted to get us down to what the staff should be. So some of us got transferred out and he had a way of getting some of us over to Sugamo prison where he was at. So we’re in review at Sugamo prison some time, he came by and he asked where we had been in service– Stationed before, and so I told him I, well was at the MPs and he said “Well how do you like it here?” Was only about four– Three, four miles difference between one and the other, so I said “Very good sir.” So that’s where he ended up and where I ended up. �Christl, Roland Interviewer: “Now what was your job at the prison, what was your job?” Well then I would become an electrician because I knew wires, so wires are wires, telephone wires, electrical wires, that’s the Army, and so I’m in the electrical. Well then the– We did all these odd jobs and like Tokyo Rose’s switches and other things. We had a short one of those big barracks now we’re in the Japanese campgrounds. They had these buildings, two story buildings, long ones like from here way over to that other building there and so it short and blew the fuse. Well you pull out the wooden box and there’s a terminal here and there with a lead wire in between, so every time you flip the switch the lead wire would melt. So it was a short and it’s not working in the middle of the day, ”How you gonna find a short in a big building?” I said “Well one way we can find out– I’m an electrician, one way we can find out we’ll put a copper wire in there.” And down at the other end of the building they have a small section sectioned off for a guard house and they had a bulb hanging down on the wire and pull the chain, you know and then you have electricity, have a light. So all of a sudden that thing was shorted out and started smoking and they sent in the fire alarm. So we quickly, you know, knew where the short was, so well then they had two elevators in the prison, one was working fine the other one was not working. (32:40) So, work order comes in “See if you can get the other elevator in operation.” So went up on the roof, opened the door, looked in there and I don’t think I’m going to try to do a thing in there, close the door back up, you know all these copper, brass switches and poles and what not. So that was one experience, now the officer’s latrine didn’t have hot water. “Fix it and– Fix it and hurry up.” Well, so we took a look and the electrodes would come out like that, spark and set off the oil. They were burned out, there’s no replacement “You ain’t gonna fix something? Hurry up.” Well I says “You know we have these welding rods, they got a flux on them and so let’s try one of those.” Well we put those in and sure enough it worked, for a week and then burned out again. So now the officers are really hot, you know “You guys fix something it don’t stay fixed what’s the matter with you!” You know, blah blah blah. So I forget how we ever resolved that but I think they did finally find it. See I wasn’t in charge of the electrical department, we had an old man who was in charge of that, he was regular Army come to think about it, and so that was another– Then the– How I became a refrigeration repair man, they brought in– �Christl, Roland Interviewer: “Hang on before we get there, before we started the interview you told me a story about Tokyo Rose and if I could record that on the cam here. First off, could you explain who Tokyo Rose was?” Well she was an American citizen and she went to Japan to visit her family and the war broke out, she couldn’t come back. So she’s an American citizen just like we are, she speaks– Probably spoke Japanese too, I have no idea but she visited her family so she probably does and so they asked her, or told her one or the other, that they wanted her to broadcast on the radio to the G.Is in the area and they would give her what she should say, and so she said “Well you know how it goes.” You know, we know where you’re at, we know where you’re going, you’re not gonna make it, you know and things like that. Interviewer: “Yeah, so it’d been basically a propaganda broadcast during the war that became very famous that way. Alright, so how was it that you met her?” Well as an electrician the order came in, Tokyo Rose needs her electrical switch fixed. (36:00) So we had a young Japanese electrician and an older one and so if we had anything that needed fixing we could either try to do it ourselves or take the Japanese, I took the old Japanese man with me and we went all the way to her prison cell, they had four or six cell blocks– The last four or six cells was boarded off by the door. That was where the two women were in there, Tokyo Rose is one and there was another younger one from Saipan they said, and so we got up there and a guard let us in and I said– Told the Japanese fellow to fix the switch and I sat down at the table like this and talked to Tokyo Rose and so I asked her if I could have her signature. She said yes but I don’t have anything to write on, so I had a ten yen note in my pocket and this is the ten yen note and on the backside there’s her signature Iva Jade Toguri which was her name then. She got married I think in the states after that and Tokyo Rose in books. Interviewer: “Alright and then you left the room.” Definitely left, well I went through and told her that– The guard left and I’m sitting there with her and she said to me “Are you gonna– Are they gonna leave you in here alone with me?” I said �Christl, Roland “I won’t bother you.” She said “That’s not the point.” She says “I haven’t been alone with a man for a long time.” Well that kind of interested me and so then I got her signature and fellow fixed the switch and we left. They had a guard right outside of her door all the time. Interviewer: “Okay, now were there other Japanese prisoners being held there?” Oh yeah, Tojo and all his bunch were– Bunch of them, there was a lot of them there and I had this picture showing the bus that they took him on and down to Tokyo to the war crime trials just like they did in Germany. They had several they took on the bus, they had escorts in the front and the back and away they went and we couldn’t get into the prison until they were out. When they were loading the bus I got someone sitting up there I said “Well one day I’m gonna take my camera and take a picture.” Interviewer: “What kind of impression did you have of the Japanese people generally?” Oh they were wonderful, wonderful people, they were not a bit aggressive or unruly or anything like that. If you went downtown Tokyo and walk down the street they would part, they would part to let you walk through. They were instructed by their emperor what to do. Interviewer: “Were you surprised that they were that well behaved?” (39:48) Oh absolutely, I surely think the young men would heckle or say something, none of them ever did because we were out there– Well at the prison you lived in a quonset hut, it was outside the walls of the prison, the wall was like six feet from the quonset hut about 30 feet tall and our quonset hut now is about this far from the sidewalk and the sidewalk is right next to the street and the Japanese living on the other side they can’t walk– They’re not supposed to walk on our side, they were walking back and forth across the street. So being in the Army most everyone smoked after we ate, sit down along the wall of the quonset hut and smoke our cigarette and when we’re done we’d flick the cigarette butt out in the middle of the road, about ten little kids would jump on it, really. When we got done at the mess hall we dumped our trays, that was like service, self service, and when we got done we had something left, went into the 55 barrel and �Christl, Roland we dumped our trays into two or three different barrels and left but when we were done eating they took this 55 gallon barrel of leftovers, pulled it across the street and little kids are lined up there with their little pails to get what they could out of there. It was two little girls, must’ve been twins, and their folks live right down the street, I could see them down there looking out the door waiting for them to come back. They lived in little shacks it’s all they had cause this is a couple months after the end of the war, and one day the two little girls didn’t get anything were too late and so crying boy oh both of them crying walking back with their empty pails, that was pretty sad and a lot of people in the big parks they had– There was people always crawling under the buses and dying, yeah. Interviewer: “So there was starvation, there was a lot of other problems. Alright, now one of the things that went on I mean there was also a lot of prostitution and things like that going on, were you aware of that?” Yeah, oh sure, I don’t think I’ll get into that. Interviewer: “Yeah, wasn’t a personal question more just were you aware that was going on kind of thing.” (42:45) Well there at Sugamo prison we had a little walk, like from here to where I live, to get to the train station to go any place, was mostly all cement slabs and every night there’d be a bunch of girls out there waiting for anybody that came out. We were getting battle rations at that time so we’re getting a lot of stuff for free and when we did buy cigarettes out of the PX I think they were one carton a week because, you know cigarettes is real high, you know I think it was 60 cents per carton of cigarettes, ten packs. You could sell them to Japanese for $20 and so 60 cents for a carton of cigarettes, you know how much is one pack worth, and I’m thinking it’s ten packs so each pack is worth six cents and to the Japanese it’s worth 30 yen which is $2 and that’s all it took, you could have one of the girls anytime you wanted one for one pack of cigarettes, for the price of one pack of cigarettes. Interviewer: “Did that create health problems in the unit?” �Christl, Roland Well sure, would any place it would be that way in the United States. Interviewer: “Okay, now were there also, I mean were there– The downtown area, did they have regular restaurants and things that were open that you could go to?” Not too much, we weren’t allowed really to eat anything or not to drink anything either when I was back in the 98ths a couple guy went to town to drink some– Something that the Japanese gave them, which was wood alcohol, and almost died, yeah almost died. Interviewer: “Alright, now you were going to talk about becoming a refrigeration specialist, how does that happen?” Well then we had a walk-in cooler that they used when they are out in the fields and it was gasoline driven and now they wanted us to convert it to an electric motor. So how we gonna do that? (45:27) Well nobody in the electrical department that I’m in there could figure that out so they sent me to work at an engineering battalion to learn refrigeration. So I learned quite a bit about refrigeration, how to test refrigerators that are not performing properly and how to convert one to electric. So I got the old electrician, the old man, and tried to explain to him what we wanted and he got most of everything and we got it going. Yeah, we did convert it. Interviewer: “Alright, now when you were in Japan did you know how long you were going to have to stay?” I had no idea, no. Interviewer: “Okay, now while you were there were a lot of the other men rotating home or once you got to the prison did those people stay pretty much the same?” Well everyone has points and you’re on a point system, when you get so many points then you go home. Yeah so some people left, when I left I think two of the people that were in the MP �Christl, Roland battalion were– Still stayed. Then you get down to what they call the repple depple which is a replacement depto where you go to get shipped out. We had chow lines, must have been almost from here to Eric’s barn over there long, single file. “What are we eating?” “Well we’re having– ” This and this and you get about halfway there and guys they’re coming back already “What are they eating?” They changed the menu already, that’s how long– How many people were there and then of course when the boat comes in and we’re ready to load up then we go, going back was easy yeah. Interviewer: “And when did you come back to the states?” Well we came back to Fort Lewis, Washington and didn’t stay there all that long they– Got discharged there. Interviewer: “Okay, I guess you’ve got a discharge date, January 4th, 1947. Now do you remember where you were Christmas of ‘46?” (48:07) I remember going down to Tokyo to the– What’d they call those clubs, G.I clubs and I think it was run by the Red Cross, they had a big Christmas tree and I went down there. Interviewer: “That must have been right before you left then, unless that was the year before.” I wasn’t paying much attention to dates. Interviewer: “Alright, now once you do get back home, you’re out of the Army now 1947. What do you do?” Well before that I got to Chicago, wanted to catch the Twilight Limited to Niles, they said “No, no G.Is” So my brother lived in the suburbs in Chicago and I called him and he said “Well come over and stay overnight and I’ll take you back to Berrien Springs tomorrow.” I was surprised that they wouldn’t– Twilight Limited is a faster train to Detroit, Chicago to Detroit stops at Niles but �Christl, Roland they wouldn’t let us on, wouldn't let us on. I thought that was a fine “How do you do?” You know? Interviewer: “Yeah thank you for your service, maybe some other G.Is got in trouble.” Yeah, so after I got home well I just sat right back in, my bed’s still there. Interviewer: “So you just went back to farming and then–” Well I worked at Studebaker for about a year I think, I know I spent one summer there because we didn’t have all that much crops because my dad cut back and so I spent about a year a Studebaker’s making $3 and something an hour and that was a high paying place in this area at that time. Interviewer: “So why did you leave Studebaker?” (50:20) Well, needed a little cash, I sent mine home from Japan, and I think I needed a little operating money and there wasn’t much coming in at that time. Interviewer: “But then after a year at Studebaker you left?” Yeah, I left yeah and start farming with my dad. Interviewer: “Okay and is that basically then what you did as your career, were you a farmer?” Absolutely, and then we started putting in orchards and you know only takes about three years, especially peaches you start getting production and grapes and pears. Next family expanded on those acreages, we raised a lot of fruit. We had a hundred ton of grapes, had to plant them all by hand, picked them by hand, hold them in our– Mostly in the wineries at that time. �Christl, Roland Interviewer: “Alright, now to think back at the time you spent in the service how do you think that affected you or what did you learn from it or were you just the same guy when you got back?” I figured I was. Interviewer: “Alright, you certainly saw and did some interesting things so thank you very much for taking the time to share the story today.” Well you’re welcome � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ChristlR2164V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Christl, Roland Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10 Title A name given to the resource Christl, Roland (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Description An account of the resource Roland Christl was born on October 29, 1924 in Berrien Springs, Michigan, where he graduated high school in 1943. Since several of his friends and brothers were in the service, he decided to enlist into the Army to offer his contribution to the war effort. Enlisting in April of 1945, Christl was sent to Camp Robinson, Arkansas, for Basic Training. Both the war in Europe and the war in the Pacific ended while Christl was in training, and he bounced between camps in the United States awaiting postwar orders. From Fort Lewis, Washington, he was deployed to Japan on a troop ship, dodging several ship mines in the Pacific during the voyage. The ship landed in Osaka before transferring to Yokohama. In Yokohama, Christl was assigned to the 98th Infantry Division and volunteered to be a truck driver, operating supply lines between the port and Tokyo. Later, he volunteered and transferred into the telephone section of the 98th Division alongside the 720th Military Police Battalion. Eventually, Christl accepted a job renovating a prison that held American servicemen from both theaters who were being penalized for insubordination. Since most of his division rotated home shortly thereafter, he was transferred to the 720th Military Police Battalion, working in a detachment at the prison. He, again, became an electrician with the MPs and worked electrical maintenance duties around the prison. Christl also had the opportunity to meet the famed wartime broadcast host Tokyo Rose while fixing her cell’s electrical switches. While talking with her, he managed to get her autograph on a ten yen note. The prison also held several Japanese officials who were being put on trial for war crimes. Overall, Christl thought the Japanese people were wonderfully respectful toward American troops despite the heightened poverty and starvation rates they suffered after the war. He was also briefly transferred to an Engineer Battalion to be trained as a refrigeration technician. He worked as a refrigeration technician until he accrued enough service points to rotate back to the United States in January of 1947. After leaving the service, he moved back onto the family farm and briefly worked for Studebaker Automobile Company before returning to farming. Reflecting upon his time in the service, Christl believed he left the Army as the same man or character that entered it. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Lest We Forget Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/046f9ac8aaffcc434cf53d52a0e8e54c.mp4 6af7f95612648bdace8403ec7f12aa67 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6a2431db152d895162a7bf959ffc03b9.pdf d83c2ea2fc2b866f60c06fc1fea6a9dc PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interviewee: Norman Christopher Interviewed by: Dr. James Smither Born: New Jersey Transcribed by Jennifer Hughey Interview length: 1:58:21 Norman Christopher: Okay, I was born in New Jersey, in Patterson General Hospital and then lived in Ridgewood New Jersey, went through all the public school systems in Ridgewood and graduated from Ridgewood High School. [0:51]Interviewer: Alright, what year were you born? 1943 And what did your family do for a living when you were growing up? We lived in the northwest corner of Ridgewood and my father, at that time, commuted into New York City and he would get up on the train and leave and then come back in the evening and then we were at that corner in the northwest where the school system started with elementary school, which was close, and then middle school got further away, and by the time high school came it was way on the other side of town with no school buses, so we had to figure out how to get to school every day. Alright, what kind of job did your father have? He was in the insurance industry and, interestingly enough, was a hull secretary and hull secretaries insured ships. So he was with Atlantic Mutual Marine Insurance which sort of got me interested, at that time, in boats. Now, what did you do after you finished high school? What did I do? Yeah. Immediately upon graduation, the question is where do you go to college? I was one of the few that went south. I went to the University of North Carolina. And why did you go there? �[2:10] They had a Naval Reserve Officer Training Corps program, it's called the ROTC. I entered that in conjunction with going to college, and it paid for a portion of the education and it was a full almost like immersion into naval history and you also spent each summer aboard a ship and then upon graduation, you receive an instant designation and then from there, had the opportunity to share what kind of ships you might be interested in and from there your naval career would get underway. Did you go into this with the idea of actually maybe having a career in the Navy or was it just something to do? I did. Didn’t work out that way full time, but I did have an idea in the back of my mind about that. Ok and did you start college in ‘61? Yes So at that point there is no hot war going on, there is a cold one, but not that. Now you were talking a little but about the ROTC program was structured, you mentioned that you went aboard ships during the summers so what ships did you go to, and what were you doing? [3:25] Right, so I could remember several of them one--and again these were not necessarily all the types--so I was aboard a submarine, which was the harder, and these were deployed usually along the East coast, and so I remember several of the deployments being either out of Norfolk or out of Charleston. Second one was the USS Recovery, very interesting ship, which was a rescue ship. And so these were usually few week deployments where you would go aboard for training in a different area and then you would sort of see. I remember also going down to flight school, looking at that, determining that that was probably not going to be something that I would long term get engaged with. I was out of Pensacola, I think maybe that was my third summer, so you just get a little but of a variety and then you would come back with those experiences and then get back immersed into the full ROTC program. I was called what they call a 2x6 which is a minimum of 2 years active and a minimum of 4 year reserve as your commitment to that program. Interestingly enough, I recently went back to the reunion and it was one of the strongest showings of any--whether you picked a sorority, picked any group at UNC--I was moved by it. A lot of the people who had served in Vietnam and other areas all came back, and of course nobody had ever followed anybody for all that period of time but we had a chance for 3 hours to just get together and it was very quiet in terms of--I don't usually share what I'm gonna share and it’s just because that's just the nature of the service--and so I saw such a strong kind of commitment to some of the things that we were about to engage that these fellow ensigns and others came back to see each other so there was a camaraderie that was there that I just missed, but we had a chance to see that camaraderie many, many, many, many, years later. Now was this a 50th-anniversary thing? �Yeah, I just went through that it was very moving So, you're basically in college in 61 to 65, Correct [5:56] And over the course of that time, the country is kind of leaning toward actual conflict in Vietnam. Did you pay much attention to the news of the world while you were in college or did you just stay focused on your own stuff? I was aware but boy, was I focused. Because even though you don’t get a degree in naval science per se, you’re taking all those courses and then you're also looking at a BS which I was trying to do. So it was a fascinating thing so it was a lotta schoolwork at that time so I was fairly focused, probably not as aware of current events at that time, but it was focused cause you had to go to drilling as well and you had your own obligations to the--not just to the ROTC program but to those on campus that would engage the training program-- so there was constantly something going on all the time. Now did things like the Cuban missile crisis or the Kennedy assassination affect things? Kennedy assassination, sure. So that sort of heightened it was like “wow these things really can happen” and not so much what your role is gonna be in it now but it was more like the scouts’ law: be prepared something is coming. So it was like creating a much higher sensitive awareness if you will. That what you’re going through isn’t just necessarily going through the motions. That's when I first felt like “wow something might happen here where you could actually serve in other than a normal time effort.” You could feel it coming. While you were doing all the ROTC stuff what was your actual academic major? Chemistry, so it was basically a Bachelor of Arts and I was always on the science side of the equation, naval science was there, chemistry was there so that's where my focus was on the campus. When you become a Naval Officer, then you normally have some kind of specialization or area, did you pick that or was it picked for you? [8:15] That was probably the first earmark into some extensive training. So I graduated in that May ‘65 timeframe and then went to nuclear, chemical, and biological warfare school. I was in Philadelphia, very intensive and that, when you come out you are certified as what they call a Damage Control Assistant so it's very, very extensive program for several months I remember going to that Philadelphia shipyard, so when you come out of it you now are an ensign but you’re beginning your specialization if you will, so when you go aboard a ship it isn't just having an ensign degree--I mean an ensign rank--but you could be going to things like main propulsion �assistant, you could go to that kind of training. And then you get into more line operation training, which I can talk about in a minute. So that was the first, I would say, and that left a lot of memories which I still have today because that was an extremely close enough program with simulated exercises that you would have a taste forever of what a casualty situation or collateral damage might look like. What were some of the exercises or things that you did in that first training? Two or three of them that come to light. First, well, there’s a lot of fire training, so they would light fires and you would have to figure a way to get them out and so they might be class A, class B, class C fires some of them are oil generated electrical generated but these were not small fires these were large fires that you had to actually go in, because ships might offer a Class Alpha, Bravo, or Class Charlie fire so you were immersed in that so that was the first thing is what does a 10-15 foot flame really look like and how do you get in there to take care of it. And there are different techniques. But they also had an exercise of smoke training and that is one that is extremely difficult. So you’re actually in a compartment that’s totally sealed and you have your what is known as and I still think today they know as OBAs or Oxygen Breathing Apparatus where you’re put with a canister, and it’s okay with your canister on, but then they rip your canister off and they ask you to get out. And there’s certain things you learn about smoke and I do remember that one completely to this day of actually trying to walk down several decks and crawling through spaces. Now, they did have people in there to take care of you if you needed it, but that was an exercise that of how do you get out of a smoke-filled compartment. [11:23] Did you do gas drills and things like that too for tear gas or things like that? Oh yeah, so you had a chance to cry some, cry none so this is where you are now exposed to some of this you are also exposed to learning how to give yourself shots, which you had to have so you were carrying these at the same time. And then another exercise that I do remember going through was a potential drowning exercise so they actually had a hull in there and they would submerge it and then you were placed in the middle of it and had to figure out how to get out of it through compartments. Still remember that exercise to this day. And then what about the nuclear side of things? Were you preparing for a nuclear attack or for, say, leaks on a ship that was nuclear powered? Probably more on the biological warfare side than nuclear. Nuclear was basically if you were in a scenario where a nuclear attack was underway you had to wash down the ship and do some other things. So it was more of “yes this could happen” but then you had to be self-contained, but not only that, is radiation. So you were exposed to that yes, we did have tags and looked at what that would mean, but we also saw at that time, which today you see carried on all these years later, is biological warfare which is still probably one, if not the, most lethal ways. We were given way back then videos of where biological warfare had actually taken place, and you can’t recreate those scenes but I do remember looking at how a biological warfare could actually take place and it was done fascinating by using an aircraft at very high altitudes dropping it into the �air stream, and they used a particle sensitivity and then put the plates on the back of telephone poles. You could actually go out and figure out with one airplane dropping this and seeing where the air streams would take it and then seeing what the concentration was on the back of plates. That was so many years ago so you just see the sophistication, I can't even describe it today, but that to me was fairly sophisticated and alerting us to the fact of this could come a nuclear attack it could come, we were more concerned about biological at that time because, not so much to the ship but to a country, like taking out feedstocks, contaminating water. Then, of course, the other ones were basically what you might see as a casualty drill aboard a ship either from a fire, from smoke, or from water being brought on board by a compartment so you got kind of a very intensified hands-on capability as you walked out of that. [14:38] Now was this school the only one you did before you went to your first ship? Yes So what’s your first actual assignment? When you leave, I left North Carolina actually found the document while I was getting through some of the files and I wondered how I arrived there so i actually put “I would like to have the opportunity to go on a FRAM II Destroyer” so I actually wondered myself how I wound up there but there it was as I left Carolina there it was, so that's what I went on board. That ship was home ported in Norfolk. Okay now which ship was this specifically? DD 724 USS Laffey And you have an idea about when that was built? Was that a post WWII ship? No most of these ships I was on, including the Neches which we’ll talk about, these were older ships, so they had been around, and it's this really good surface destroyer but what was interesting about this, so I remember leaving the school and then going, so I came aboard the Laffey right away in September of ‘65, so it was right after that school which was for the summer of 65, and there I went. So I was kinda like transported, the ship was not homeported it was already doing its exercises in the Indian Ocean, and the Red Sea. And how did they get you out to the ship? Very interesting, so I was wondering the same thing. I was wondering whether I was gonna pick it up in a port or how I was gonna do this. I actually was helicoptered in. I do remember that because the seas at that time were about 15 ft, and that was a memorable opportunity to be dropped in by a helicopter on top of a destroyer while you’re underway doing exercise drills so I do remember that. �[16:38] And you say the sea is 15 feet so you have like 15 foot high waves essentially, so the ship is going up and down. I remember at the time a little bit about the exercises so I think at this time, might have been the Roosevelt, that name comes back to me, but it was plane guarding. So one of the exercises for destroyers is--besides combatant and firepower--is to plane guard. So you would be in formation with other ships and exercises and they would be doing flight operations and you would be plane guarding, so that if there was in fact a plane with an overboard drill or casualty you would peel off and do a rescue. So that was one of the, I remember, one of the task force operations that was originally part of that. So these are usually deployments that last for 6 to 9 months unless you were asked to stay on. But I knew going in is that I was one of the overcomplemented ensigns, so they have a certain amount of deployment of officers and enlisted people and I remember when I went aboard that i was on the over complements, I always wondered about that, over complemented meant you were one above the number. I never really got to figure out why that happened but I guess they anticipated somebody leaving, but there was no room so instead of joining officers’ quarters, I do remember joining chiefs’ quarters. So this was a fascinating opportunity when I first came aboard, that does usually not happen so I had the opportunity to really see the senior enlisted side which was the chiefs. That was an interesting experience for me because usually everybody--you’re a boot ensign--and everybody wonders to know whether you’re gonna make it or not, and you're really really green, and I was in many many areas, but I was blessed with the opportunity of having some really senior people there that began to mold and shape a little bit of that for a short period of time. [18:50] So you arrive on the ship then, and you mention there’s no room for you in the officers’ quarters so you join the petty officers instead. In general, how are you treated, or what kind of reception do you get when you come onto the ship? Yeah I remember that too, it basically all now comes to fruition. All the training world is not gonna give you this, you’re now there and have to perform. I do remember struggling, seas were just really really difficult, you had to get your sea legs and that took forever. I remember, I mean everybody goes through it but it takes weeks to get your sea legs and so I had to go through that period, but yet also stand all the watches and do everything you're supposed to do and I do remember those struggle days and people wondering, as they look at you and they know your struggling, “what are you gonna be like in the next couple of weeks after all this sea legs and you get a little bit more?” So very very challenging time to really sort of, now all of a sudden you are who you have been trained to be, now reality sets in. Did anybody try to help you or coach you or do they leave you to your own devices? A couple of the junior officers were there, and I do remember a few of them, but basically you're on your own. [20:30] What actual duties did you have then, on the Laffey, what were you doing for them? �Well I do remember one specific training that I, again you would not actually take an officer of the deck but you could become a quarterdeck watch officer. So I was certified during this timeframe as a quarterdeck watch officer. So you would be part of four on-four off, or four oneight off, whatever the exercise required, meaning four hours on and eight hours off so you’d be continually doing this and then you would be with the officer of the deck and a quarterdeck officer and those requirements would be up on the bridge. So you’re up on the bridge, you’re simply there. Did you have any-Sightings? Yep, you’ve got people as lookouts on the sides of ships, that was a specific area first for officers to be acquainted with what the bride duties really were and so some of those officers might be in supply, they would not be part of this, now you’re considered part of the “line duties”. That was the first piece that I do remember going through and then takes awhile to get certified but then you are now a quarterdeck watch officer, and you’ve got other officers--junior ones--that might be main propulsion assistants whose requirements are down inside the ship, but they had a group of us that were now being exposed to how ships really maneuver, what the exercises are, because you can see what’s going on. [22:17] As far as you can tell or put together, what was your ship actually doing, or what was the task force you were with actually doing at that point? Again, a little bit of this is foggy, I get a little better with the next level but it was because I was getting my legs and everything else, I was not as--what shall we say--cognizant of what these exercises were. There were a number of ships that you were just not in this by your own. I do remember the carrier there, I do remember other destroyers and other ships so there would be a lot of this information. So there are several ways that you would have a task force group operating and so we’d have a carrier and then would have certain ships on the outside for one exercise I remember, it’s called a bent line screen which is where you have a carrier in the middle and you have certain ships that are on the outside and a bend line screen for protection. So all these were different types of exercises in formation. That’s what I remember first because when i left the ship and then went into this next service area that became very helpful because you think when you’re just out there you’re by yourself, you’re doing it oh no no no. You’re given orders to do this in formation and so regardless of what those water conditions are you have to be 2000 yards directly behind at this end. So I would watch the officers of the deck try to maneuver these ships to stay in these formations and you could see them on the radar screen. You wanna stay as tight in this type of formation so they would expose you to different formations to protect and to also be on assault if needed so it was several different roles but this was part of these exercises that were coming from the fleet. [24:14] A Destroyer is a relatively small ship, did it help you to orient yourself to what the Navy does, because you were on something where you could see all these different dimensions? �I would say yes because even though I was there for a short period of time it gave me the opportunity to see a ship in action and all the component parts and how they all flow. Yes, they’re small, they’re hundreds of feet, they’re not 500 and above, these are small vessels. They can speed at a significant number of knots and they do a lot of warfare, so they’re very electronically, well I’m thinking ahead to the type of electronics we had, but they had probably the most up to date fire control systems, so that if you were being attacked by an aircraft you could look at the fire control systems, they had five-inch 38 mounts and other things. You had a chance to see the armament on the ship, you had a chance to see what it was like to maneuver in formation, you could see all these different departments aboard a ship, you could see the importance of the Chiefs and the warrant officers, they’re our most senior, they spent years in the service, and then you got somebody like ourselves who are here for the first time, yet you were assigned to different divisions and things like that. It was the first chance to be a part of enlisted with warrant officers to see how that whole division--because there were a number of divisions on a ship--would actually come together. But it was more for me an opportunity to soak in before I actually contributed. [26:02] How long did you spend on the Laffey? I was there from September of 65 to March of 66 with one important school that happened in between. After moving through, becoming a Quarterdeck Watch Officer I then had the chance to go to school for Officer of the Deck OOD tactics, that’s now where the opportunity will be to train to actually take over the ship from the captain when he is not actually on the deck. There are a number of people who are training, so I went to that school. OOD tactics school ended in December of 65, so while I was aboard the Laffey, a short period but I did get that training. As soon as I had that training, this complement of officers and shake-ups sort of came and then the question was where do you wanna go? I didn’t answer the question, I just said I didn’t look at this from a sensitivity with what was brewing in Asia at the time, I had just said wherever I can serve. [27:19] So the idea was that this was--on the Laffey--that was just a temporary assignment to give you--literally your sea legs. Now where did you do your Officer of the Deck Training? I’m trying to remember and I can’t, it just doesn’t come. [27:31] Was it back in the US or was it still with a fleet? They did these in Europe too, at some of the ports. It just doesn’t come to me, but it did at the time give you the fact that “wow there’s something more here coming” so now you have the DCA, the Quarterdeck Watch Officer, the OOD, so you’re becoming to have a set of complementary skills that can be used. That’s the best way to package--in a very short time frame, because we’re not even a year out of graduation and now, all of a sudden I have this. That’s what I remember is I have a package now and then when the question is where, that's �when the orders came back “You’re gonna go from the East Coast to the West coast” and that’s when the change happened. [28:25] While you were with the Laffey, do you remember if you ever went into port at anyplace or did you stay at sea the whole time. Well there is an interesting note here that I met my wife, who went to North Carolina for the same time I did, but I never met her. So I met her when the Laffey was ported in Norfolk. She was from Virginia Beach and actually taught school there. That was the first time that I had met her, it was aboard the Laffey while we were either running in or running out for a short period of time. So you went back to your home port. Did you stop in any overseas ports that you can recall or just back in Norfolk? I remember one where we had a degree of difficulty entering a port and actually had a small collision and it’s just all part of the background there, but I do remember that. It just happened and you were not--shall we say--put into a scenario where you couldn’t steam, you couldn’t do this, but I do remember the beginnings of what something might look like in terms of real action, but this was not under any course. East Coast was all preparation training for what was going to take place. When I left, I didn’t know I was going to the Neches which is AO-47, homeported in Hunter’s Point. But I had to go to school again, so now we go to the next school, which is Cargo Fuel Oil Handling. That was intensive training on how you move fuel. Where did you do this? That was in San Diego. The ship was in Hunter’s Point of San Francisco, but I do remember going. I went to that Cargo Fuel Oil Handling, or Petroleum school for several months in the spring of 1966. [30:51] What did that school consist of? Well, coupled with, you can see now with the background with chemical and biological warfare, you’re sitting on something that could explode easily. So you have to learn the types of fuel, there’s JP-5, JP-4, which are basically aviation fuels. Most of it is bunker fuel or what the ships use, and you were exposed to all of that. You were exposed to how to keep that fuel clean, and I didn’t realize the importance of that--I can share a story about that in a minute. You’re exposed again, to saltwater right? So you can think where sediment saltwater gets involved in these fuels. So you’ve gotta know what they are and then you have to know how to handle them, and that means pumping. All these fuels that we’re describing are on the oiler and are pumped to various ships as they come alongside. I’d never been a part of that, and seeing that operation. But then you have to realize you have to know flammability, you have to know safety, you have �to know how to keep it on spec, and you have to know how to move it. Then you also have to know the crew that you’re going to be with as part of the deckhands to move that fuel, so that was a lot. But, I came out of school and that’s now what I came aboard as. They had to have one of those aboard the ship, so that's what I was trained in. Now all of a sudden I’m not looking at anybody else, I’m looking at myself, because now I have that training that that ship required. [32:52] When you were doing this school, would they take you out to sea to practice refueling and things like that or did you stay in the harbor? Probably in the harbor, but they have so many videos now that they would use in class to show, you know I showed you one recently of what was taken of the Neches, it’s now been decommissioned and put to bed, but you could get these so there was a lot of these classes were done with videos. But the things that I do remember from that is that the ship that I was going to go aboard, all these valves had to be cranked by hand. The Neches is one of the oldest but most reliable oilers that the fleet had. A lot of them now move into hydraulics and you just sit and move them, no these had to be moved by hand. I remember asking myself “holy cow, am I gonna remember to turn the right valves on and the right valves off?” That’s all I remember out of that one, but I do remember that question living with me. And then to do it in seas and all that sort of stuff, wow. And I do remember the underway replenishment with the Laffey, doing a few of these, but never from the supply side. Most of the time you wouldn’t appreciate other than the lines come over, you take, you leave. Now all of a sudden, I’m looking at it through a different lens, like what’s all the preparation that has to go on before that ship comes alongside. And they could come along both sides at the same time so all of this is like, I have no idea what I’m gonna experience. You can see these by some of the videos that they were shooting in some of the sequences. So you could see those operations coming full circle pretty quick. Where and when do you join the Neches? I joined it in San Francisco in that spring right away, that March timeframe that I went to school. I went to school right there and came right back and then it was deployed. [35:13] Then you sailed with it out from San Francisco, and where were you going? We were going to, what they call, the South China Sea, Gulf of Tonkin, Yankee Station. All that are familiar terms to many, unfamiliar to me at the time, but we knew what we were going to do. We were, of course, all 7th fleet operations which were designated into the South China Sea. Our home port was Subic Bay, very interesting homeport. Just to add to that, we were part of what they call a task force. You have the 7th fleet but then they had different task forces underneath it. This task force was with underway replenishment group. We were an oiler but you also needed to have AEs which were ammunition ships and you have to have supply ships, so they were out there too. We were then, where do we get our fuel, and that was from Subic Bay. That was a steaming couple of days from Subic Bay in the Philippines out into the South China Sea, so that was what was ahead of us. �[36:37] When you went out the first time did you stop off at Subic Bay first, and then go on? Describe a little bit the setup at Subic Bay or what was there and what went on there. The biggest experience I could ever have is in this new role, so here I am, First Cargo Officer and a young ensign coming aboard to take on this fuel. So we go into Subic Bay and you take yourself down to where the depot is, the fuel depot, and you send your lines across and you start taking on fuel. I start taking on fuel, and we have a small lab, very unsophisticated at the time, but to take on bunker fuel you basically look for sediment. This fuel starts coming onboard, these are very deep tanks, 30-foot tanks. We’ve got several mains, ones were just at the bow of the ship, you had two up there, that was number one, number two through 8 or 9 all had center tanks and two wing tanks. So we started taking on this fuel and I started noticing, cause you’d spin these in centrifuges, I was picking up rust. I didn’t think too much about it, maybe it’ll percolate through. It didn’t percolate. So I took this up to the captain. I remember saying “Captain, I just wanna let you know something. This is what your fuel looks like.” He couldn’t believe it, I couldn’t believe it. We shut it down and we pumped it back. All I was doing was what that school had just told me to do. I always wondered why. I got into a little bit of well they’re gonna test the young ensigns, this is real time. Here, you know he thinks everything’s hunkydory and you’re over there and no it wasn’t hunky-dory at all. So the first fuel that I took on board, we were able to catch and that experience, every time I came back in I got the best treatment in this world. So to this day I don’t know whether they were testing myself and the captain or whether the captain was aware and we’re just gonna go do this. But that's the livest training you can ever imagine. [39:27] You’re making it sound as if you were sort of the one officer it was on that ship whose job it was to do this. We had a chief and we had a crew. The chief was there, of course, with me, but we were starting to catch this and wondered. So it wasn’t just me catching it, but it was our responsibility to take the fuel on. When everybody would go on leave or go offship for a while, no. I’d stay on the ship almost all the time, because you’re taking back on fuel. I didn’t get a whole lot of time in Subic Bay, because we’re always just very impactful, taking on fuel. It’s certainly, with this group of, and really the warrant officer and myself, looking at this fuel and saying “hey this is not acceptable fuel to take.” Part of what I was asking is there are not other officers on this ship with the same responsibilities that you rotate with. So it really is just you, and you’re just a new guy coming on there and okay that’s your job. But in the meantime you don’t get to, say, enjoy as much of Subic Bay. Oh no, no. That was the first time. You have to load up cause you’re using fuel to steam across the Pacific and you get a chance. I have in the book here that was for this tour, you can see actually where the ship went, but you now know the routine, well I didn’t know the routine yet, I just knew when we were out of fuel and supplies, we had to go back into Subic Bay. That’s where you were gonna get the supplies. Then you had to steam for a few days out into this 700, �900 mile big Sea to get you to your station. I hadn’t done that yet, because we had to take on all the fuel and all the supplies.I had not yet gone underway with any underway replenishments to know what that was like, but I now knew this was gonna be the routine for taking on fuel. So you’ve done that and now you head out for the South China Sea, explain a little bit for an outside audience what Yankee Station was. [41:43] Yankee Station was an area in the Gulf of Tonkin in the South China Sea. They actually had two stations. Totally unfamiliar with what they called Dixie station which was in the South China Sea, so this is in the North part. So this, I presume--and I did a little bit more researching, is that they would have several groups. You needed to have two or three carriers at all times, so there would be two or three carriers in this area, and our primary job was to refuel--usually at night, so most of these operations were done at night. Some were done during the day, but that was to primarily keep as much of the carrier formations. We are further enough away except for one time, being fired upon. You usually are far enough away until storms et cetera get you in close, and I do remember that one time. But these carriers are the ones that were providing the flights and that’s where the Navy would go in with the aircraft. We were carrying JP5, it’s primarily kerosene, so besides sediment and bunker fuel, the other big problem is saltwater in kerosene. So you had to test all the time and you couldn’t leave the vents open. Lots of times you would want to, you could only open those vents when there was no rain, when the seas were not coming over the fo'c'sle. You had to watch what you were doing, so you’re always there wanting to make sure that you wouldn’t have built up flame vapors in these, but you also wouldn’t have them during the seas. That’s where your deck hands would be out there ensuring at all times that you had the right ventilation system. Yankee station was an area that we were a task force as a part of the 7th fleet operations, but we could not give any orders. We’re subject to those that are in the 7th fleet that would then start to say “okay, carriers X, Y, and Z: they need to be refueled. You’ve got destroyers, you’ve got the Canberra, I remember a few of the larger surface vessels being in there. I think, I did a little bit more research, there were about 40 Navy craft during this timeframe that were either in the Yankee station or Dixie station, cause each of those would have two or three carriers, and a number of destroyers. I was exposed to some ships while we were there that we can get into that I’d never ever seen before, because they’re the smaller ones. So we arrived in this Yankee Station as part of a task force, and then we would be called into formation by the superior officer who was in charge of those operations, which weren't us. [44:59] So, big picture, the carriers are there providing support for troops on the ground, or striking targets in North Vietnam, the base where the aircraft are conducting military operations and then you’re there to keep everybody fueled. Right, there were some other ships in there, and there were some guided missiles, and I can talk about a little bit of a couple of ships I had never ever seen before that we were actually able to refuel that were actually providing a lot of that firepower. Now let's go back to the Laffey, you had the destroyers in there and they’re doing the same things now that we’re actually in war. So that training that I had on the Neches going back to the Laffey, I now saw both sides of the �equation. They may be firing at certain times, they would go in closer and maybe provide firepower into the coastline and then the air wings would take off and go in and provide additional strafing runs into the country, I can see that, but I can’t speak to what actual firepower destroyers were giving, they would be doing that. A cruiser now and then, the big boys were around--not many of them. You would have that and then you would have others. They’re amphib vessels. You’ve got cruisers you've got destroyers, you've got amphibs, you’ve got carriers, you’ve got minesweeps, and you get river forces, so you could probably break down at least seven to ten task force groups. So if you can imagine the war now having 7th fleet operations, but 8-10 task forces, and how do they all come together. I never appreciated that actually until you asked me to go back and do a little research, and when I saw it, it was like how and where did those plans come from, and we would sometimes ask those same questions. [47:02] From your perspective onboard the ship, if you have to refuel, say, an aircraft carrier, how do you do that? What’s your job? There were a few that were pretty special in this, so I listed some of the carriers that we actually--I think the ones that I remember, there are two or three that I remember specifically. I do remember the Kitty Hawk, that was CBE 63. That was one of the first carriers brought into Yankee Station. Another big one, number two in this, was the Ticonderoga. These are the first responses. This was I think CB 11. That was an Essex Class, the Kitty Hawk was a Kitty Hawk Class, and then the third one, which was the only one we ever saw, was the Enterprise Class, which was the USS Enterprise and nuclear, only one. I do remember that coming alongside, and here we are at a 500 foot Oiler, steaming along. You had to be given orders on the speed, wind direction. Don’t forget, at any one time they might be flying, so this was not “let’s pick the smoothest” no you had to pick, get a certain amount of headwind off the front of that aircraft carrier so they could launch planes. You’d probably be doing this in the night. Then all of a sudden, how does a USS Enterprise come along close. I was so impressed with the ship handling of these care. So if you can picture, our operations were on the deck. So up in the front you’ve got the bow and you’ve got where the conning tower is for the oiler, and you’ve got the bridge and all that in communications and that sits up front. Then you go back and you get all this massive amount of tankage, and then you’ve got the stern. So we’re right in the middle on the deck. They have the ability to steam in, so you’d be steaming, you had to steam at probably a minimum of 12 knots, but it wouldn’t take them forever, they were not steaming at 13--it would take hours to catch up--they’d be steaming at 25 and know when to shut down. Just go into neutral, and then go in reverse and slow those engines down. It was the most impressive, and then you would look out: one deck, two decks, three decks, four decks, five decks, six decks, seven decks, eight decks. Then you realized, even though you thought you were on a big ship, my goodness gracious, that was the Enterprise. The operations for the carriers always concerned me, because you’ve got a lot of water that’s bouncing off that hull, and it would all wash back on this. We always practice Man Overboard drills, because besides the fact with a life preserver, getting a chance to get washed overboard was pretty easy. There was damage control and, really where all the operations were. You could get inside on the deck in the area where you could have some safety, but for the most part you’re going around, turning bowels. �[50:46] The interesting piece in doing that is that wasn’t the first ship that was toward the end. You then had to figure out all of this: how do you get these hoses over to the other side, they would always take their fuel, basically in the floor of the ship and the aft of the ship. It wasn’t just one, you have to send several lines aboard. Then you have to look at are you taking AB gas in addition to JP5. Ships like the Kitty Hawk would take bunker fuel to run on and then they want their AB gas, and you’d have to make sure, again, all those samples of all those fuels are right and then you’d have to send over. We’d shoot lines over so that was it with a rubberized kind of arrow, and it would go over. And we’d shoot these and there would be a line attached so then the line would come across, then you’d have to have, on both sides now, the ability to put up a fuel line and run it across. So this is like “can you hit the mark in the middle of the night and do all this stuff?” So we got guys that were really deck hands that were really good. They loved that. They loved the ability to go shoot at one of these big carriers. We tried to lighten it up, but you could see the seriousness of all of it. We also would take on destroyers. To the portside we’d go on to the starboard side. The dual operations were extremely difficult because now you’ve got four lines out. The most difficult thing is the pressure. These things are stoke with a lot of pressure and if they're not clamped on right, you’re gonna paint somebody black. That happened, not so much with us, but you’ll see ships that had a good dose of bunker fuel. So that was one of the issues. They maintained big pressure hoses and then once that fuel was aboard, you had to drain then right, and then bring them back right, and not drop a whole lot of this stuff into the water or on the board or side of ships, and make it as clean an operation. [53:03] For me, the first couple of times was just watching it happen. Thank goodness we had a great chief and great deckhands because they’d done this before, I hadn’t done any of this before, I got better as the replenishments went underway. Did you do any of the hands-on stuff yourself, would you get down and use the valves at all, do what they were doing? Oh for sure, cause you always wanted to participate, but I didn’t wanna take over somebody else’s respect. My job is I would always work with the chief, and I do remember that, with a sheet of paper to trace the lines because I just mentioned we have all these tanks, which one’s being drained at what time? I would kind of do a chalkboard thing and walk around to make sure we’re actually pumping from that and the pressure’s right. I was always there to trace. Then the question is “what happens when one tank is empty and then you have to shift to another tank?” Just to give people perspective, these ships, when loaded with fuel, they would hold, the Neches--by the way is the most decorated fleet tanker in US Navy history. It was commissioned in 1942 and went to rest in 1970. Most decorated--I did not know that till I did some research. It contained the following characteristics. It was what they call a Mattaponi class oiler. There were several classes of oilers like classes of aircraft carriers. Named for the Neches river in Texas, 242 officers and enlisted, so it had a fairly large complement. Displacement 22,445 tons so it's a fairly significant size ship, 520 feet in length. Still small compared to a carrier, but larger than most of the other destroyers and everything else. Beam 68 feet, flank speed 16 knots. Now one of the reasons were reliability, single screw, but a sitting duck. But the most reliable you’d ever see. And that’s why this was, probably weathered so many different campaigns for the Navy. I do remember that, maneuverability. We did all kinds of Man Overboard drills and competed with �one another on the deck and tried to do different formations. But the final disposition was sold for scrapping in December of 73. It took on a lot of fuel, so it would be over 35 feet in draft, fully loaded. When all the fuel was gone, we would offload all that fuel, we just come up like a floating top. So now all of a sudden you’re riding 10 feet versus over 30. Very interesting, right? You get a chance to ride in many different feelings and perspectives, we would stay out for every time for probably 30 plus days. In that timeframe, over 30 days, we would do, on average, probably 30 to 35 replenishment, and then we’re emptying and back. [57:00] While you’re out on duty, did you have to ride through any typhoons or bad storms? Yeah, I remember some well over 20, 25 feet. Which today is, if you watch some of these fishing, that’s nothing today. But it is when you’re doing replenishments and being told what formations. When we weren’t doing that during the day, you would get replenishments as well. Those were for the major ships, but as time passed, cause we did this month after month after month and then going back to Subic Bay, we’d be called out, even though it would take you’d go back in after 30 days from probably one to two, so that’s why my time was limited. So while they all get a good meal, every once and awhile I could sneak off the officers’ quarters and do, but Subic Bay is a tough area, so even though you look at it at user-friendly, it was a very different time. That was very memorable as well as some of the impressions that I was giving. The Filipinos in the Navy were just great because a lot of those were stewards on board. I remember being taught how to eat Gilly Gilly which is interesting pieces of rice and fish and Anissa. It was the culture side of this started. All of a sudden, you got all different people with all different backgrounds, all in this thing. Not quite sure why we’re here, what we’re doing. The routine sorta helped, so for me “okay, now we’re done, now we go back.” Every once in awhile, we’d be called back before that, two days. Alright, well let the first part of the crew off for one night, and another off, let some off two nights. We’d get called back out because of the need. We were prime time for this, at least in the northern part. Then we had a chance to even go in further as the months progressed. That became a routine that was helpful to me. If we could perfect that routine, which had its degrees of difficulty, I don’t ever remember exactly how many but for the months we were out there you can start adding them up and start looking at the types of vessels and then you realize how much fuel we actually, you know. [59:24] What were the dates of your service on the Neches? I came aboard in March-April of 66 and their tour came back in--actually released in June of 67 Over the course of that time, does most of the crew and ship’s complement remain the same? (Christopher nods his head) So it’s not like the army where everybody is going in and out on their own one year calendars and cycles. So you have pretty much the same group of people that you’re working with the whole time. I did receive a spot promotion in December of 66, while there from ensign to Lieutenant JG. �What impression did you have of the other officers? The captain or the ones you actually worked with? Some I remember very closely because I worked with them. Others, like on the supply we had people that would handle that side, I wasn’t quite as close with, but you had a close-knit because besides refueling, I also stood in as an officer of the deck. So now all of a sudden, not only am I doing the cargo but I’m also.. Now when the replenishments would come, I would come off the deck and an officer would come up. I do remember those days very well, from ship handling as well. From quarterdeck, then going to the officer of the deck, then from cargo field school, now I also was an officer. Actually, that’s almost like a job in itself because you would be on for four hours at a time and then off depending upon what. But sleep: you had to have a routine because, just picture you were up early in the morning standing your duty and by the way that night we’re doing underway replenishments for most of the night, so a little sleep deprivation every once in awhile, but you just learned to live through it. We were all young back then so we don’t worry about stuff like that, but I do remember juxtapositioning both those two. [1:01:49] What was the captain like? Captain Millar, great guy. Most oilers take on what they call “four stripers” as full captains so they rotate. He had both line duty, also shore duty, and he was very well experienced. He set the very right temperament and I can’t, we should talk about temperament a lot. It’s very difficult when you’re in 90+ degrees with 90% humidity to look your best, but you also didn’t wanna look like you didn’t care to be in the Navy. It was this balance, and he set a very good one. He also was very congenial, I do remember him as expecting, if he gave an order, for you to carry it out but he wasn’t micromanaging you, which in this case: absolutely you don’t want. Micromanaging this kind of operation-it’s the reliance on how everyone fits together. He did, I remember, put us through some good, challenging drills together. Those were good. There were a couple of ship handlers that definitely, among, there was a crew of us that could do many of this, because he had an executive officer and administrative officer. So you’ve got a number of those that are very well experienced and a crew of lieutenant JGs and lieutenants that have, cause don’t forget you’ve got armament, you’ve got people who have this capability too. The shiphandlers were good, I grew into being a better one, I wasn’t terribly good because--question: we dropped these big nothing more than wooden crates over the side and that would be all hands on deck Man Overboard. [1:03:45] And you would be challenged to be the first one in the shortest time frame to turn the ship around and bring it alongside. Number of ways to do that, and that was a competition I do remember that. I remember not coming in first, I remember not coming in last. I learned a lot from those types of “okay we’ll have all the OODs up on the deck here” and you would assume those if you just don’t walk off. Every watch you go up to be relieved, so there was a time frame 15 minutes before the watch actually happened where they would tell you to sea conditions: anything that’s happening in formation, what to expect in the next 24 hours, all the sensitive radar. You would get that total picture, so you don’t just walk up and take over. Then you’d have to salute and say “I assume the deck” and then the question is you can assume the deck and the con, which is the conning tower too. So there’s two pieces to that. Then if you are assuming the deck and the con the person that you have to--there are a certain �set of orders that the captain knows before he goes to take rest, that if you alleviate any of that or change any of that, you have to call him for that change. I remember doing that a few times, but you would want that captain to try to get as much rest as possible because now it isn’t just me. Think about all the other operations that he has to be sensitive for too. But we had some very very good times on board. We had spent Christmas at sea and shuttle Christmas trees and take back brass. Take mail out and shuttle people around, so it was a very lively time to do a lot of different things. [1:05:31] Now, did the routine kind of wear on people after a while? If you get to the end of that 30 days, is everyone kind of getting crazy? Well not for the first time, not for the second time, but if you keep doing these month after month. We actually had to go down for a little bit because some of the gun mounts. So we had to actually go back in Japan for a very short period of time to get some work done so that’s all scheduled. No question, it’s wearing. Most of those people, again the Neches has more than one deployment, I was not part of the other deployment. If you were aboard that ship and doing deployments one, two, and three, yeah, you could see that. There was a homesickness that started for some of those sailors that had been on not one not two but maybe additional tours of duty because they continued. It had a few more years left after but this was in phase two of the conflict so there was a discrete number of operations that they were held but i think i looked on and they were part of several of these, so that’s where the homesickness came. Tired, physical tiredness yes. Water, hydration, water was almost a premium as well, fresh water. [1:06:56] Did you have any kind of desalination equipment on the ship? Could you process seawater or did you just have to fill up at Subic Bay (Christopher nods) So did you have to take showers in saltwater or things like that on those ships? No but I remember having to talk about putting a ship on water rations and one of them was for a period of time when we actually were moving christmas trees around. Whoever gave that order we thought “if you’re going do into some of these” and it gets into some of these ships that I can describe a few of them that couldn’t come out all the way into formation because they were craft that were small like mine sweeps. Mine sweeps you’re not gonna pull off of the coastline so we actually had to get in and the hospital ships, they were in, so we actually had to figure out how to maneuver in and provide support. And then we had a few very unique ships, one of which I don’t think I ever saw again. They call them LSMRs, Landing Ship Missile Rockets which looked like a cut off destroyer and they would come out in it, you would never see those. They were always under cover, inside in the Delta. They took on much less draft. So you get a chance to see the full Navy here and experience, so physical fatigue with hydration, heat, and humidity. That is what took a big count. [1:08:37] You mentioned at one point that when you go ashore, there was at least one occasion when you got fired upon? Actually yes. I remember it was terrible storms and we were going up and down the coast, a little close, and have fired across the bow. They knew who we were so they just decided to give �us a little warning. They knew. So it was like “don’t come any closer.” When you’re on these lines and in these stations, it’s difficult with weather and rain. Clouds would definitely affect some of the radar. You knew you were in there, and you would be up near Hanoi or something like that but it would be like “but how close are we really?” and stuff like that. That’s the only time I do remember, but it’s interesting to talk about that for a minute. We did a number of exercises with our fire control. They would take, just to see if anybody actually did fire. These were five inch 38s, but never had the right fire control systems. I do remember a couple of times when they would put a sortie in over the course of the water and see if you could pick it up on radar and track it and at times that aircraft was behind us before that five inch 38 would ever track which tells you that if anybody had really decided you could take, because the systems were so old that they had never put in the new because basically its Korean and World War Two equipment that's being used. [1:10:26] And you’ve got an oiler which is not primarily a combat ship. You’ve got some, essentially had aircraft guns on there, but you’re not really supposed to be doing a whole lot of fighting so they don’t have the same kind of equipment they’re gonna have on a destroyer or something like that. From a damage control standpoint, you always wanted to know what you could provide and that always left me like “you’re probably not going to be able to do much.” That’s not the role but you have to have something if somebody came out from the coastline at any point in time of a smaller vessel, because most of the vessels that were there, a lot of fishing vessels. They’d always play games with us in the middle of the night. Try to look like we were running them over. They thought if they could, you could see them with their lights on. There’d be these small fishing fleets and they’d come out. They’d try to run across the bow of the ship as close as they could and it was always like “I presume we’re not hitting any one of these.” And the reason why they would do that, they thought the fishing would be better if they could get as close to that. There was a whole lot of different things. I could see these and like nothing you could do about them. There was always this in the night life that’s going on out there like “who are they? What are they doing?” and it’s like “oh, it’s the fishing fleets” and they’d come out and you would see these. That’s how close to shore some of the exercises were. [1:11:58] Did you go into any ports other than Subic Bay? Danang had a port in there and there were hospital ships and that’s the first time. Again, it’s very difficult to get any maneuver in these, but the hospital ships would be stationed in there, because that’s where they would take the people that had suffered significant injuries. That would be the only one where I would say that we probably made the foremost entrypoint. The other ones, we would get as close to shore as we could and then the mine sweeps would come out and the others. We had smaller replenishment gear we could actually use for that. But you’re not going ashore yourself in these places. You mentioned going to Japan, did you get to go ashore there? �I did, again a memorable experience. We were there for a short period of time and they always wanted officers that would be willing to be part of the military police, so I got a chance to be military police. That was another set of experiences because at that time, you can imagine, people had a memory of American ships. At that time you had Yokosuka, Yokohama, those were a lot of where the US had significant bases that could do repairs. You also had a population that wasn’t terribly excited to see the US Navy. So military police had the opportunity to get in and see some of the evening altercations and there were several, I do remember those. [1:13:52] At this point, was there sort of anti-war activism, or just general hostilities between sailors and locals. A lot of people talk about Japan as being a generally welcoming place, or they behave pretty well. It was, to be very honest it was very light in terms of the protesting. It was more of, I would say, our stirring up the locals than it was the locals stirring us up. There was some of that but you could deal with this. It was really our behavior. You’re dealing now with, it wasn’t just us, because you had other ships underneath repair there too. I do remember taking one tour to see Hiroshima, and it left a very vivid impression on me, because the person giving the tour was an individual who’d lost his family. They never forget that. They have some pictures where you would look at it and it was starting to be rebuilt for sure but you could see where that land looked a whole lot different than the countryside around it, so you know exactly the containment area where that bomb took place. But then to have somebody who’d actually lost his family, he felt to honor his family would be to describe what he went through and what took place. That left a mark with me. [1:15:40] A lot of Navy ships went down to Hong Kong at one point, did you get down there? Yep, and just stepping through all that, that’s where that military police. So you get to Hong Kong to get settled and then you get into yeah. So not much time there but the military police side of that is. You would see yourself as part of the police but you would be part of the Hong Kong military police, let me tell you they were no-nonsense with our guys. They were small but extremely combative. Once in action, goodness gracious. Probably for their size, the best handto-hand trained combat people I had ever seen in my life. It was a side of the equation that I had no appreciation of until we’re there for a short period of time and you’re letting those people go offboard, how they’re gonna behave and everything else. Staying aboard to make sure all the work on the ship gets done very very quickly so you can go back out on the line. I think we could’ve done some things differently to present ourselves in a slightly better way. So you’re kind of unleashing the soon to be unleashed on the town and someone cleans up after them. You spent some time sorting through the things that happened while you were on the ship. Are there kinda key things or events or incidents or impressions here that you want to bring into the story? �[1:17:12] Let me go to the tougher ones first. The tougher ones would be you’d be sailing along on Ranger Station during the day and you’d start seeing pieces of gear in the water and then you’d realize that these were ours, where are they coming from? When you first see them you’re not quite sure, and then you’d realize they were parts of aircraft. A lot of them turn out, but not all the time, to be fuel tanks. So those fighter jets that left those carriers would go out and provide firepower to wherever they’re asked for reconnaissance missions or whatever, helicopters, whatever. But they had a certain amount of fuel in those tanks and sometimes, as you know, we had no idea where some of those, I just watched the recent viewing of National Memorial Day and they had a family from Vietnam who went through all this. I watched it and it is so true that people were supposed to be at certain areas, but you weren’t sure where the area was. They were then captured, some came back, some didn’t, some died. Then you realize that the support for these people became absolutely tantamount to what you’re doing. It goes beyond fuel. So one of the biggest things we use to do is carry mail. Mail would go in there and that was just terrific, specifically for the smaller ships. Then at one point, we were just given a few Christmas trees that were actually in there, in the Delta, down at these different coastline areas and they would come out and they were just so appreciative, because they were the ones who were firing all that firepower and all that sweeping, and they were really the ones under the most difficult scenarios because they would take firepower from the coastline, we were not taking that firepower from the coastline. The only things we saw coming back were the planes. There were several carriers that experienced some significant issues. 44 died on the USS Oriskany and that was not due to anything, that was due to a problem aboard the carrier when they were launching. You would see that death didn’t occur necessarily all by enemy fire. We saw more of the ones where this came to light. Part of which is we saw a few planes not being able to get back. They were so close and you’d be praying for them, that they’d make it back on the top of that carrier. We saw a few, but that sort of brought all this to light. Like “what are we doing out here?” Then you see that’s what we’re doing out here. And you just pray to God that that pilot would be able to make it back. Most did, but a few didn’t, and you were able to get, some you weren’t, cause you just don’t know whether they were wounded as well as they tried to bring that back. That was the vividness, I guess, to us of how we saw that. Coupled with those ships that we would provide, we sent casings back, so we’d do just about anything anybody asked us to that was Captain Millar, even though it’s like “isn’t the ammunition ships those to bring back the brass?” “Yeah but when’s that next one coming through? I’m fully loaded with 38 shells.” I remember when I left I made a lamp out of mine. I took one piece of brass back and made a lamp out of it and I still have it today because that five-inch 38 was it. I mean, when you take it back that was the brass. You’d see how important that one piece of armament really was to everybody. But he was willing to be supportive and I think that’s another thing it’s like, we were supposed to do this, but we could do that. Well where in the regulations does it say that an oiler can’t take on a Christmas tree or deliver mail or take people, even though it might be a responsibility? (1:21:47) When you’re in times of conflict you really sort of do what’s needed. It gives you a full perspective. You’re out there and can see how the war really resides with those that are the pilots and in closer you would get mine sweeps and some of the other ships. The LSMR, which I still remember today is probably, if you look at some of the Vietnam movies, it’s the closest thing to looking at the bridge on one of these and seeing people in cutoff tee-shirts and armament like this, gun mounts where there shouldn’t be, but that’s what they did. I just �said “boy, that’s the closest thing that I can ever see.” Those were depicted but we didn’t have very many of those. The front end of this was just rockets. I’d never seen one of those before, you could see just by how many rounds of fire they could put off so quickly, and they needed a paint job. That was war and they could really provide great firepower. You never know the full complement of everyone out there, you had your job to do. You certainly had a chance to see casualties, you had a chance to see death, but yet you had a chance to see how everything fits together when a conflict like this takes place. I do have some even more difficult memories a little further down in the story, but that sort of gets us through where we are. [1:23:36] After we did this month after month after month, we had our ups and downs but for the most part never as many problems in the port Subic Bay as we had the first time. I still remember that, whether it was a challenge or an opportunity or whatever that was. We had a few problems with bad weather, I have the pictures that show the difficulty of those that come back and all of that. For the most part I would say we had a relatively successful tour. You’re called back for this period of time, so we were called back. I remember one of the biggest honors that I was given was to bring the ship home. So where was that, back to San Francisco? Yeah, so I brought it under the Golden Gate Bridge. Again, you would have pilots. We did a lot, thank goodness. That’s another thing we should say, because sometimes you can’t bring an oiler into Subic Bay or you can’t bring it into a port along the Vietnamese coastline without having a pilot. So I should always tell you tugboat pilots and all those crew that were part of those riverine forces along with the PBRs, which we can talk more about those, Patrol River Boats. They’re the ones that actually went up the coastline each and every day for the Navy. They probably were the best trained of anybody. To get back home you had to have to pilots, but I got it back, and what an honor to be given the opportunity to bring the ship home, at least for that watch when we got there. [1:25:33] I guess we’re generally following your story in order, so you got other sort of stories from the Neches that you haven’t gotten into yet that you want to bring onto the record. Part of them was kind of the extension of the difficulties with the military police that we had in Hong Kong, it was continued in Subic Bay. It was a very difficult spot, you can read all you want about Subic Bay, it’s a story in itself. You know, open sewage, all sorts of stuff. You can just imagine living like there with completely marginalized people, looking for handouts and everything else. Very difficult to immerse in a friendly way on an ongoing basis. We had out degrees of difficulty and we did suffer some significant consequences, but most ships had those inside Subic Bay. Subic Bay was the stopping point for all the seventh fleet activities as it was going over there. It grew, but I was always most concerned, and the stories present themselves, about the behavior that actually took place there. I saw some things that I just didn’t think I’d see before about how to treat people and that will always leave a memory too, just decency. You can talk about the bar fights, you can talk about all that, but it goes beyond. All of a sudden it was like “what’s the life value? What’s the value of a person?” At times, you would see people where there was no value, who didn’t look like they didn’t care. I’d never seen that. You’re brought up, go to college, people value things and all of a sudden “what’s the value of life?” It’s an interesting question. [1:27:41] Did you have any sailors who went into town, never came back? �Yep. And it’s known for the bars, and the prostitution, as well as crime and various things that can happen if you’re not careful. You just described it, that’s the trail. And when you would that, let’s just take that point for a minute and reflect upon it, you think you’re now in friendly territory, but what did you just say? You said they go ashore, they drink, there’s prostitution, there’s crime, and then they never came back. What’s the difference of that versus somebody who just lost their life serving out in Yankee Station? Where are we losing lives? We’re losing them in lots of places, I guess is the best piece that I can describe. I was seeing more of the other side of that than people who were actually on the combative side, although I did get a very good taste of what that was. There was more things on the other side of the equation than I ever imagined. By the time the Neches gets back to California, are you pretty close to being done with your active duty at that point? That’s when something memorable happened. I had spent time, I think I told you, with my wife and I was given the opportunity to ship over again and go to the next area of training which was Coronado Beach for River Patrol Boat. That’s what was next. My wife had the opportunity of saying if the Navy is your career, and this is where you’re going, maybe I’ll go somewhere else. So today, she’s still my strongest support, and she allowed me to continue the Navy a little bit more, which we could chat briefly about, but that was the line of demarcation for me. Although you asked me before, first question “did I have…”, and the answer is yeah I probably would’ve given it to myself. She was looking much further into this than I was, because once you get into this it becomes, I hate to say it, a lifestyle. Now, all of a sudden, I had had one lifestyle platform launching lifestyle, now I’m in the lifestyle. And of course, what does the Navy want? They want people who have had a launching lifestyle, have seen what this is, they don’t want to take on as many rookies anymore. Very very hard decision. I made it [1:30:50] How much time did you have left in active duty at that point? As soon as I said “no”, they processed me pretty quick. It wasn’t like “well let’s sit around and talk about old times” because they were preparing for their next deployment. THey also were looking for these River Patrol Boats. They usually were captained by a Lieutenant, so they had a small complement. Those were officers who usually had a warrant officer with them and in the deck. Those were the inshore river enforces, and separate task force. That was part of what could’ve come next, or staying aboard the Neches just to do another deployment. That was all in that mix. When you’re out there by yourself, she did come, my wife did come to see my ship brought back. I felt like that was a commitment. Because when you do this, you never know. There was this period of time, she made the commitment to come out and at least see. [1:32:06] Were you married at this time? No So you had met before and do you correspond while you’re on the ship? Just to stay in touch. That was not a good thing to do until you figured out whether your feet’s on really good ground or not so yes. That was the decision made back in June of ‘67. I did track my release there. Once you’re off active duty, you’re still in the active reserve then? Right, so I still have more years to finish out. Once you’re off active duty, did you go back to school, get a job? What did you do? �Now, all of a sudden, I go get married. That followed almost, you know, within the next period of time because that’s where this decision was made. I did get a job and one of the things being I had a background in chemistry. When I first came through, knowing that I might get out, I had looked at several companies and sort of processed myself. Dow Chemical was the first job I got. Now I have a job, but now I actually go for active-duty training. Now you’re in the active part of the USNR. Now I’m assigned AC-Dutra in the same timeframe, the latter part of ‘67, in New Jersey. Now I have part of a unit that is on active reserve there in New Jersey, which is where I was for my job. [1:34:02] What was your unit in New Jersey doing? This is a whole nother story and it’s bittersweet because I look back on it today not sure I made all the right decisions but there was a couple of things that turned my decision and you can share those because it's nationally known. Active duty is basically a reserve center. It’s a physical location in which you all spend a certain amount of weekends and a certain of week during the summer, a couple of weeks away. That started and it's called the Ready Reserve. After entering that, so for the late ‘60s early ‘70s, I spent summers aboard--and I think I can get most of these-- a couple of Oilers, so Caloosahatchee AO-98. Let’s see, let me get them in consequence. USS Trenton, and the Truckee, another oiler, AO-167, US Newport LST 1179. These were usually ships that were home ported, they could be out at sea or an employment. Half of them were, half of them were just at port. You would spend two weeks during the timeframe. It was all staying in a prepared readiness thing if, in fact, you were ever called up which we weren’t. That continued on. During this timeframe, in ‘69 I became lieutenant and at the same time became an administrative officer for this unit. Then I became the XO of this unit, executive of this unit, in 1974. So I was staying very engaged, I actually looked at a fitness report that I have, a couple fitness reports. You know it’s interesting how people look at you back then. I had them in my jacket, I think I told you I brought my jacket. I was looking in my jacket like “what did anybody think about this?” so I read a couple of the fitness reports. If I had really probably looked at them the way I looked, I would have stayed in and gotten my 20, but I didn’t/ The rub was this: there was about 250,000 that were in active duty, getting paid to all this, and then we had the executive order by you know what president that sort of said, “we’re just cutting back the reserves, we’re just scratching out pay and that’s it.” That took all the wind out of my sails because that means the only thing you’re doing is going down there one weekend a month, two weeks during the summer, you’re not getting paid, and what does all that mean? Cause now you’ve taken all these units off active reserve. Then you’re just pushing paper and pencils. That sort of came to light and I went in inactive standby reserve in 1978. Now I'm in a different state. So I’ve come from the East Coast Navy, to the West Coast Navy, to active duty, to inactive and so do I want to stay? I had to ask myself a question at the time “was this the best use of my time?” I made the decision I wasn’t gonna waste it. I was gonna go back and get an MBA, so that’s what I did. But I was just talking about my wife last night before I got here and I said “you know after reading all this stuff, what everybody thought, I don’t know whether I made the right decision.” [1:38:31] You did mention that the people who were the reserves were not getting paid? Right. But you were still showing up? �Had to show up. Inactive, as long as you were there, means you’re just getting your retirement pieces, you’re not getting paid for doing anything. Before you were being paid for something. So they took, under Clinton’s watch, which was starting to get in there, I believe that’s how it all started late into that period, those were the times when they shrunk the size of the Ready Reserve and shut down many of the Ready Reserve units and put many of them on inactive status. That’s where all that churn started for me and then I wound up [inaudible] Do you mean Carter rather than Clinton? I’m trying to remember. Cause Carter is ‘77. I’m trying to remember the president that decreed all this, I think I was in the reserves. When was Carter, 85? No Carter is after Ford, so Carter is ‘77 to ‘81. Alright, it may be Carter, I’m trying to remember who took it, who followed that piece right after that. You have Carter, then you have Reagan, and Bush, and then Clinton. Clinton’s not until the 90s. It may have been Carter. Somebody had taken out, maybe it was Clinton I guess, excuse me, he was the one who took out, I’m sorry I had it out of order in my mind, he’s the one who took out my brother-in-law who was a captain. He was the same issue. Got a name, his name because he stayed in for 20, my brother in law. It would’ve been this, but it was the shrinking at the time of this national, these active, what they call the act neutral programs. That’s when I had to make a decision on whether I just wanted to stay the next, because I was halfway there, to stay for these next 10 years and just do the retirement points, or whether I could use my time better and that was the decision I made. I think I was formally discharged in October of 1982. [1:40:35] Look at the time that you spent in the Navy, what do you think you took out of that, or how did it affect you? Well that’s probably worth more of the conversation than just some highlights of what you went through. Well first of all, I had no idea what the difference was between responsibility and accountability. We throw those terms away like “it’s your responsibility” but whose accountability? I learned what accountability means in the Navy, not responsibility. I could delegate you my responsibility, but not my accountability. I don’t know where I could’ve learned that lesson. Where does the buck actually stop? That’s what I learned. That was one important lesson. I would say another big lesson in that is this whole area that we talked about today is this journey. Everybody wants to reach a destination point and say that I’ve accomplished this and accomplished that. I don’t know a better set of tools that I could’ve been given that allowed me to have the journey I’ve had. Never knew that at that time. It’s a toolbox. What do you do under rapid fire? What do you do in the middle of the night? What do you do, what do you do, what do you do? Developing game plans, working with people, relying on people. I mean, it’s all there. You could put people through all the exercises, but unless you’ve done that on a consistent consistent basis. I never looked at it, I didn’t spend tours and tours, I wasn’t in hand to hand, but I’m walking away not knowing what you’re asking me today, but as you reflect back I don’t think I could have progressed on the career that I had done without having that. There were some �inspirations, my brother-in-law is retired full-captain. He was unable to make admiral, but he was a fighter pilot off-carrier, there’s a real guy. He stayed and we talked a lot. He was always kind of like, you know, you always have somebody in your family and my wife’s dad, he was the one who stormed the beach. Very quiet, both of them. You’ll learn in your family roots and so service became an important part. I don’t think I looked at service to the country like I look at it today. You can ask me a question and does it bother me what we’re doing? Absolutely. Absolutely. This sense of honor today, I don’t know how anybody even defines it when you see what’s going on. You look at these people that served and as I was saying, one of the most momentous things that I’ve seen recently is this recent PBR broadcast on Memorial Day for an hour and a half. My eyes glistened listening to those stories. Every family, school member, school kid, oughta see that. Only takes an hour and a half out of your life, listen to people. They couldn’t even tell their own stories so they used actors James to tell the stories then they had the people there. These are some that have been maimed for life and yet have rehabilitated themselves. Others that have served but are missing still today. Just wonderful stories about how our country has been built, and we seem to gloss over this today and don’t understand what honor and respect is. [1:44:42] I’m not sure, when you look back on what I experienced, I didn’t see the respect, I saw the honor of serving, but the respect I didn’t necessarily see. One vivid impression that also remains with me is, I told you that I worked for Dow Chemical first. I came out, I was given the opportunity to go to Midland, Michigan for a year and to see whether or not I was fit for duty to serve Dow Chemical. You say “well that’s easy once you’re employed.” The reason why I did that was, I came fully trained. Dow had the best training program of any other chemical company. Why wouldn’t you, if you’re a rookie, want to get trained the best? I stayed in Midland for the better part of a year before they actually allowed me to go talk to anybody. I thought that was kind of neat. What I did, my first job was in the Northeast, which is back where my area is. I remember today, walking into the Dow offices in New York and seeing on the inside of the glass windows burnt children from napalm and people maimed by Agent Orange. I didn’t recover for awhile. I was really, now you know I sort of separate myself from what I had been through, try to get myself--I always used the term, you know, I was taking, after being on active duty and having all these Navy terms, I coined my new part of my life after I left the service even though I was still active, I was “active duty” for civilian life. Well when I first went to work, that bridge fell apart because I’m now working for a company where people are out there every day of the week bringing the company down because they participated with the development of Napalm and Agent Orange. [1:47:25] Of course, when you first are joining Dow, late ‘60s or early ‘70s there’s not really much public about Agent Orange. The pictures were there, you could see the pictures. They were hung when I went in there in 1968, ‘69, the pictures of what Napalm effects had. Napalm you would see. That was immediate. That was there, you could see those pictures followed by. Those pictures were pretty descriptive and so now all of a sudden I have flash memories of a peace I didn’t necessarily see, but were a part. So that created a degree of instability because now you’re serving at home the company who had manufactured this product, what was its role and now it’s like “oh you’re gonna revisit this.” So there was a several year period in there where I had to get my sea legs back together again. I went through the same couple year period of now quite sure what I was �doing, why I was doing it. Fortunately, I was surrounded by some good people that were able to do that. Those flash memories backward with that picture still sit very vivid with me. I just remember walking up that long staircase in the city and it was glass and there are those pictures. And they were actually putting up pictures of the effects of what they made. Alright. Of course, you come back and now it’s like ‘67, then you go to ‘68, ‘69, and so forth, kinda get into the era of the peak of the anti-war movement. Did that register much with you, or did you pay much attention to it? [1:49:07] I did, but I went silent. I got kind of (trails off) I can tell you how I got brought back, it’s really because of Grand Valley and the LZ Vietnam piece. I went silent and there were so many questions that were there about why we did stuff, and we actually probably could’ve, online, come up with some better thoughts. We just knew and wondered why and, of course it’s a lot like, it was a very difficult war to fight because we knew nothing of the territory. I mean it was like, how do you do warfare along a coastline like that where you basically don’t have any experience being there before? It’s kind of like the current situations where you’re now in desert types of conditions but never been there. There was all of that. It was all a question of whether you were actually equipped to do, as we were working with nothing more than what we had previously fought with. We knew there was upgrades in technology, so you wonder where that was. Then you saw the whole issue of purpose. I didn’t really follow the war that greatly was happening south-Be careful with hitting your microphone, by the way. South in Dixie Station and starting to look at that whole area of the whole of the whole fall period, the new documentary that came out. That piece was kind of not there but very historically important, but I didn’t pay a whole lot of attention to it. I just felt like I’d served, I got my feet back on the ground, I stayed in the reserves, I’d done my time, but yet I came to Grand Valley, been there for a while and then all of a sudden what happened was, you know, I got a little bit more in WGVU and then I saw a little bit more about what happened and then the LZ Vietnam came several years ago. I had never been to anything. Nothing. Then all of a sudden I went. It was very interesting, very few Navy people there, but the people I saw again brought back the service side and the pride side of looking at these people who were the combatants. The Marines were there, the Army was there, a few Airforce, not very many Navy. Then all of a sudden you saw the difference really was being made and why the war was fought. It wasn’t from everybody telling it, it was really the experience of what all those went though. [1:51:52] I don’t talk about it at all. I mean, it was a long time just to get to where we are today. I only have a little piece of this whole puzzle. I do think the service to our country is critically important and I’m glad I went through what I did. I know I was prepared, I didn’t quite know what I was being prepared for, but the preparation was there. So I took that after I got my feet re-back on the ground with some others, and I used those experiences very well, but I didn’t wind up with the haunting memories that some have had. Those memories start to come out when you see some of those people like at the LZ Michigan and they’re haunted to this day. I am so thankful to God that I didn’t have those haunting pieces. I mean, that little issue I shared with Dow, that was a flashback. You don’t wanna have too many of those, but I walked away with it with service to the country for a period of time which I learned something that I could use elsewhere. Fortunately, what I learned I was able to use in knowing how to work with people �and trying to get them set in the right direction into my business career. I stayed in the chemical industry for my life. Now it’s kind of interesting because you can talk to people who now are students and say “hey, you’re in the chemical industry” and some of them say “you’re the one” still to this day like “you’re the one that had all the pollutants and everything else.” Perceptions and images follow you and it’s fascinating to me when you talk to people who don’t know anything about the war, what image do you have in perception? And then to some that do. I still think the storytelling is what makes this whole picture the most truthful and representable account that you can find. So I commend you for taking the time in the History Project to get as many of these voices together, because voices left alone don’t necessarily give you the voice you’re looking for. It’s the collective voice that makes the big difference, because we were looking for collective voices and wondered where they were. Why were we being exposed to this? I didn’t even go into, picture this, a little flashback just came. So I’d go into Subic Bay and I knew what pieces of gear we’d need to go back out online or if we’re in a port along the coastline or something, I knew the pieces of gear. I learned the terminology I will never forget called comshaw. You ever heard of the word comshaw? [1:54:50] Don’t think so. It’s to borrow with the intent never to return. So what’s a better word for better word for borrowing with the intent never to return? Steal. From our own people. So you’d go into a supply and you’d look at stuff and if you knew you were gonna need it: take two. So all of a sudden it’s these kinds of scenarios of preparedness. It’s like “well, if you’re not gonna be prepared, I’m certainly gonna be ready.” You don’t learn that in a textbook. This is cultural, behavioral things. There’s a lot on the behavioral side of what you experienced during that time frame that I’ll never, ever, ever, forget. That was just something that came to mind. How do you, do you just put simple requests in? Oh yeah. But how do you really get stuff? You barter, you trade. Okay, that was part of the deal too. Those are all this background of experiences that you all go through, but that’s real life right. You get out online for 30 days, what are you gonna do if something breaks down? You’d better have another one. Specifically if you’re underway replenishing. Can’t wait for another valve to work, you gotta go get it. [1:56:07] Did you learn that kind of thing from the senior enlisted? Absolutely Yeah. They’re very good at that kind of thing. Oh, they were awesome. I don’t think the chief that we had aboard the oiler, I never gave him to this day,I wish I could meet him. I don’t know whether he’s alive today or what. I wish I could’ve thanked him better, cause he made me what I was. I don’t think I ever looked him in the eye and said that, but I sure wish I could. Chief Doyle. Awesome, awesome guy. He was the steady Eddy through all this like “hey tell me how does this really work.” He was there and he was the one that always made that, what we called our division. It was our division. He was the one that could always make that work, he’s in the book. I just look back and I’m saying “boy, if you have to look at somebody who really made this thing go, to your point, it was a senior petty officer. He was as good as it gets. Calm, steady under all conditions and here we are trying to jump around. So that calming influence, not only from Captain Millar, but, I mean you can’t find that. you always hear the other side. I was blessed to have some calming influence to go through what we did. Without it, now you’re in a highly reactive mode. They were being able to proactively put into you what to expect and of course the anticipation if you get it right is half the �game. “What are we gonna get for this next four hour period? What is it gonna really look like?” They were very good at that. Those are all pieces of this journey, but I guess I’d look back on it as a journey. It was one step, and a big one. You’re fresh out of college, and how you learn accountability, responsibility, all of this short order? This is how you do it. Well, I’ll tell you, it makes for a good story so thank you very much for coming and sharing it. You’re welcome. Thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_ChristopherN2129V Title A name given to the resource Christopher, Norman (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-06-19 Description An account of the resource Norman Christopher was born in Ridgewood, New Jersey, in 1943 where he attended local public schools and graduated high school. His father worked as a Hull Secretary for Atlantic Mutual Marine Insurance, influencing Christopher's interest in naval vessels. In 1961, he attended the University of South Carolina for its Naval Reserve Officer Training Course, alongside the study of chemistry, with the idea of possibly making a career out of the Navy. While in college, Christopher was aware of the growing tensions of the Cold War, but remained largely focused on his education. The assassination of President John F. Kennedy put the tensions of the decade into perspective for him, fostering a heightened sense of awareness going forward. He graduated in May of 1965 and went on to attend Nuclear, Chemical, and Biological School in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, which helped clear him as a specialist in the Navy. His first assignment came in the summer of 1965 when he was assigned to the DD724 USS Laffey. an older ship ported in Norfolk, Virginia. He recalled how his first few months of duty were challenging since the turbulence of the sea made his work difficult to complete without developing his 'sea legs.' As an officer, Christopher was then assigned as a Quarter Deck Watch Officer with duties on the bridge as well as elsewhere on the vessel. After his time on the USS Laffey, he attended a course on Cargo Fuel Handling in San Diego, California, before being assigned to the USS Neches. On this new ship, Christopher traveled to the South China Sea and the Gulf of Tonkin during the Vietnam War. He detailed how American naval carriers supported the inland ground forces with aircraft that did most of the fighting while Christopher and his vessel ran refueling missions between ships in the gulf. He also recalled having to occasionally operate in typhoons or enormous waves. While serving on the Neches, his fellow crew members remained largely consistent and Christopher was eventually promoted to Lieutenant JG on the ship. He had great respect for his Captain on the Neches and held many of the other officers in high regard, even though he did not come into close contact with all of them. Christopher also believed he became a better ship handler over time and how homesickness affected some men who had been to sea longer than others. In one instance, his ship was fired upon as a warning to discourage it from drawing closer to shore. In other instances, he recalled how local fishing vessels would travel in close proximity to the American vessels to conduct their work. Christopher did travel into port in locations such as Subic Bay in the Philippines, Da Nang in Vietnam to access the military hospital at the port, as well as in Japan where he briefly became a Navy Military Policeman. Later, noticing how some planes never made it back to their carriers or how others barely made it back, Christopher was given reason to start questioning why the United States was actually in the war. Reflecting upon the greater picture of American naval operations during the war, he analyzed how every branch of the service, class of ship, and crew assignment worked together and cooperated during conflict. Christopher described the situation in Subic Bay as relatively chaotic with large populations of marginalized people, poverty, and pollution. This made the interactions of American servicemen with local civilians tense and often dangerous due to heightened rates of crime, bar fights, and widespread prostitution. When the Neches returned to California, Christopher chose, with the persuasion of his future wife, to not pursue active duty in the Navy as his primary career going forward. In June of 1967, he was released from active duty, remaining in the active reserves, and pursued marriage as well as employment at Dow Chemical Company. While in the Navy Active Reserves, he moved to New Jersey where he became a Lieutenant and Administrative Officer, and then Executive Officer, for his reserve unit before transferring to inactive duty. Ultimately, Christopher decided the Navy was no longer the best career choice for him in favor of pursuing a higher academic degree and was discharged in October of 1982. He concluded that the Navy taught him the value of accountability, intertwining it with lessons on responsibility. He noted how there was an honor in serving, but not overall respect for being a soldier, and how he was haunted for years about imagery of the effects of napalm while working at Dow Chemical. Reflecting upon his service, Christopher was ultimately happy that he served his country. He was also fortunate that memories of combat do not haunt him as they do for many mutilated veterans who served on the ground during the war. Pre-Enlistment: (00:00:33:00) Enlistment/Training: (00:02:05:00) Service: (00:14:45:00) Post-Service Reflections: (01:40:28:00) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Christopher, Norman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy. Naval Reserves Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/98c3419a25f5e2bea453d7faf68c7d23.mp4 d19dba2d902c8213400722c20901265d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8b3d8f97a3a162e2c9af64966f057046.pdf 1723d5f119efc5774b84d272645ef643 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Demo Christopoulos 1:11:06 Background information (00:19)  Born in Grand Rapids, Michigan, October 18th, 1925, at Blodgett Hospital (small hospital at the time) (00:14)  Father owned a restaurant on Michigan Street which was lost when the Great Depression hit (00:30)  House on Knapp Street was also lost During the Great Depression (00:42)  Moved to Burton Heights and father reopened restaurant (00:52)  Father opened another restaurant on Bridge Street in Grand Rapids and family moved back to the west side (00:57)  Attended Union High School (1:06)  Graduated 1943 (1:10)  4 children in family (one older brother and two younger sisters) (1:14)  Brother enlisted in January of 1943 (1:29)  Served in air force on the ground crew (primarily medical) (1:34)  Very little attention was paid to the world conflicts in school (2:22)  Registered for draft in October enlisted in the following summer for Army (4:06)  After enlisting two weeks were given to finish legal matters (5:37) Basic training (6:04)  Left for Fort Sheridan in Chicago in December of 1943 (6:18)  Attempted to join air force but was unable due to overloading (6:29)  Took a 3 day train ride to Camp Shelby near Hattiesburg, Mississippi (6:44)  Basic training began January 2nd 1944 (7:57)  Learned military procedures, handling of a rifle, proper treatment of officers, night courses (8:13)  Age 18 at the time (9:32)  KP first Christmas (9:52)  Segregation of South came as a surprise (10:44)  No black soldiers only black workers. (11:50)  Furlough granted after 16 weeks of basic training in late April early May (12:35)  Denied deployment over seas because under the age of 19 (13:41)  Trained as a student cook for approximately a month and then sent to cook and baker school at Camp Shelby (14:31)  Sent back into platoon (15:48)  Left Camp Shelby for Camp Shanks in New York in December 31st (16:56) �  In 65th Division, Headquarters Company, 3rd Battalion. 261st Infantry (17:05)/(18:55) The Division was often stripped of its men to replenish others overseas (17:35) Deployment (19:32)  Sailed out of New York Harbor in a convoy for England, then embarked for Le Havre, France (19:37)  One battalion (1,000 men) fit on to one ship (20:23)  Seas had been rough and many had sea sickness (21:25)  Depth charges could be heard by soldiers on the ship (22:25)  After unloaded from boat, he was loaded onto a truck and driven to Camp Lucky Strike. “a pile of tents in the snow” (23:10)  K rations where used for primary food source for 1 or 2 days. Food was delivered after 2 to 3 days. (25:01)  Camp Required several weeks to become functional. (25:36)  Other soldiers at Camp Lucky Strike had simply passed through (26:03)  Training continues (marches, classes) (27:35)  Loaded into a box car and moved east to Metz France. Unneeded equipment was left and advanced on to the Saarbrucken Area (28:16)  Replaced the 26th division. (28:48)  Stayed in a small town in position waiting for the spring push. (29:30)  During this time He stayed in a house (30:04)  The spring push took place approximately a week after his arrival. Advance began early in the morning across the Saar River(30:44)  Once on German territory, he discovered that the Germans had vacated most of the pillboxes (31:00)  Swept road using a mine detector (31:36)  Detector relatively effective however the immense amount of shrapnel on the road however made the frequent stopping impractical and it was turned off. (31:54)  Crossed the river by assault boat (33:44)  Crossed the Rhine River (34:50)  Patton Gave a pep talk to the platoon sergeants but not to the common soldiers. (36:02)  Big towns were very damaged, but small towns and the country had been left relatively untouched (36:25)  Children were more likely to contact the solders than the adult civilians (37:23) First Action (37:48)  One night while in a small village, he encountered a German offensive(39:10)  enemy tank was involved (40:41)  The air force became involved in order to destroy the tanks (42:30) �      The offensive led to the town ultimately being burned down. (43:16) The first big combat encounter he experienced (43:51) Company lost 2-3 (44:25) His squad had 2 killed and 2 wounded (44:45) Left in trucks (44:49) Witnessed the German use of the Autobahn as a runway due to the destruction of air fields (45:30) The Danube River Crossing (45:06)  Arrived the evening before the crossing (46:47)  Crossed early the next morning (47:07)  First quiet but soon had become pinned down by artillery and mortar. (47:18)  Infantry faced a lot of resistance (48:25)  Reached a building in the evening and went towards Regensburg (49:24)  Earned a bronze star in this action. (43:35)  From Regensburg his company headed towards Austria (49:46)  Arrived at the Inn River and met the Russian Army (50:00) Encounters with the Germans (50:43)  Surrendered often near the end of the war (50:48)  Young men and young boys where encountered most frequently (51:31)  Some SS soldiers had been encountered but mot many (52:10)  German where less likely to surrender to Russians than to American soldiers (52:35)  Prison camps were encountered (53:28)  The smell was terrible and the shape of the prisoners was horrible (53:40)  Many displaced persons (54:30) Post war Activity (55:23)  The unit stayed in a barn when the war was pronounced over (55:28)  Summer was spent waiting for equipment at St. Florian monastery (55:44)  Then the unit was disbanded (55:56)  He was transferred to the 9th Infantry where he spent his winter (56:00)  Last place stationed before his return home had been in Dachau (56:11)  22,000 S.S. troopers had been screened there which he guarded (56:29)  Platoon sergeant wanted to make him into a squad leader but after he had enough points by the point system he was anxious to return home (58:13)  Arrived in Germany of March of 1945 and left April of 1946 (58:35) Time Spent in Europe(59:15)  Most civilians had been relatively friendly (59:17)  Many nationalities in Austria who served in the German Army resided there (59:29) �    Germans treated soldiers well. (1:00:08) Spent a three day pass in Paris (1:00:32) Had a week tour in Switzerland whose opinion of U.S. soldiers had been relatively unwelcoming. (1:00:42) Many of the older members of his division had been sent home because they had acquired enough points according to the points system (1:01:37) Additional Memories (1:02:35)  Germans where very friendly, but desperate for food. (1:02:50)  Fishing and hunting were done frequently (1:03:03) The Return home (1:03:23)  Took a Victory Ship back to the U.S. this trip was relatively short and much more relaxing then the trip over (1:04:01)  Arrived in Camp Kilmer, New Jersey (1:05:05)  Sent to Camp Atterbury, Indiana where he was picked up by his father and brother (1:05:40)  Spent time between many jobs however most often worked in the restaurant business. (1:06:36)  Time in army made him much wiser. He wouldn’t go through it again but doses not regret the decision. (1:08:56)  Every year there is a reunion for his unit. (1:09:43) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Christopoulos, Demo (Interview outline and video), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Christopoulos, Demo Description An account of the resource Demo Christopoulos is a World War II veteran who served in the Headquarters Company, 3rd Battalion, 261st Infantry Regiment, 65th Division. He enlisted in the Army late in 1943, but did not go to Europe with his original training company because he was too young. He eventually sailed with the 65th Division, which joined the 3rd Army in time to participate in the spring offensive in 1945. His unit pushed through the Saar, crossed the Rhine, and then fought their way across the Danube, and ended the war in Austria. Christopoulos remained in Europe until the spring of 1946, with his last assignment involving screening SS prisoners held at Dachau. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-07-14 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ChristopoulosD1167V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/06d0a2b3721f6283e84d4ca51155911c.pdf 35bf13e40562d46ba960c9084a8f500a PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Incunabula Description An account of the resource The term incunabula refers to books printed between 1450 and 1500, approximately the first fifty years following the invention, by Johann Gutenberg of Mainz, of printing from moveable type. Our collection includes over 200 volumes and numerous unbound leaves from books printed during this period. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1450/1500 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Incunabula Collection (DC-03) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United </a> Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource text Language A language of the resource eng it la nl de Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Chronicon [folium 119] Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03_119Florentinus1484 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Antoninus, Saint, Archbishop of Florence, 1389-1459 Description An account of the resource One leaf from Chronicon (Partes I-III) by Antoninus Florentinus. Printed in Nuremberg by Anton Koberger on July 31, 1484. Illustrated with red rubricated initials. [GW 2072; ISTC ia00778000] Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Nuremberg: Anton Koberger Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Language A language of the resource la Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1484 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/37018e9c970b1ad7a42123bad7b5d54c.mp4 902bc5212fc07f2cda2aff2c3f64debc https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f0b0aa7c0ecb24dd3c131d83e89d1251.pdf b4ea4f520cb2bfa4fe3e8d812c68f716 PDF Text Text RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Chuck Baisden Date of interview: June 8, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 1] FB: Chuck, we'd like to begin with, what were you doing prior to hearing about the opportunity in China? CB: Well, I was stationed in at Mitchell Field on Long Island with the 57th Interceptor Group and we went up to Windsor Locks, Trumbull Field on gunnery, I think it was April '41. And when we got up there, why we were told there was going to be a meeting. Trumbull Field had an old building that I think had been a mill one time and I was going to have a meeting. So we went to the meeting and they closed all the doors and all that sort of stuff and Skip Adair… FB: Please start again, from the beginning. CB: From the beginning, OK, I was at Mitchell Field, we went up to Groton, Connecticut, at Trumbull, and we were up there for gunnery. and we got a notice on the bulletin board there was going to be a guy there talking to us about, we didn't know what, anyway, we went into the building, and they closed the doors and Skip Adair was there to meet us and he gave us this, which at that time was sort of a song and dance, but he said we need people to go to China to patrol the road up there and we're going to build airplanes over there. And I was Staff Sgt. at the time I was making $72 a month and the question came up are you going to travel for a year? And the pay was $350 a month in 1941, $350 a month was a lot of money and of course I was, just turned 21. So I, bunch of us, [?] Sheffield and I, we put our names on the list and then we, nothing more happened, we went back to Mitchell Field and one day they said go down to base administration - they wanted to talk to you, so we went down to the basement, they had the blinds drawn - they had a rack of civilian clothes and we all got our pictures taken and I had GI uniform on and some kind of a sport coat on and then a fellow said, "What's your job?' I said "Well I'm the aircraft armor." "What do you do?" I said "Well, I take care of machine guns and load bombs and etc., etc. "You're a metal worker." I said "No that's different. I'm an armorer." "You're a metal worker." And he finally convinced me that's what was on my passport so I went overseas as a metal worker and I heard some of the other fellows went over as all kinds of things, but that's what I went overseas as. FB: What were you doing prior to hearing about the opportunity in China? CB: Well, my unit was in Mitchell Field, Long Island New York, 57th Pursuit Group. Col. Phil Cochran was the CO. Phil Cochran was, or actually Phil Corkin?. Anyway, we went up to Groton with the 33rd squadron to do gunnery at Trumbull Field and while we was 1 �there, they told us to report to the main building for an interview. And it turned out it was Skip Adair. And he gave us a presentation of going to China to do patrol on the area there over, I guess it was Loiwing to keep the Japs from bombing the place while we assembled airplanes. And he also gave us the one year contract and being that I was making $72 a month as a Staff Sgt., $350 really impressed me. So that's how it got started. We went back to Mitchell Field and in, I forget the month of it, we were told to report to Base Administration, and the State Dept. was there taking pictures and they had us all lined up with civilian clothes so we had our pictures taken and at the time they asked me what I did. I told them I was aircraft armorer. When they wanted to know what an armorer was I told them, and they said "No, you're a metal worker." I said "No, I'm an armorer, that's different." "No you're a metal worker." That's what I went over as, as a metal worker on my passport. And I got discharged from the Air Corps on June 2nd, no I'm wrong, I got discharged May 24th from the Air Force, continuance of the Government discharge, they made us turn in all our field equipment but they let us keep our shoes and part of our uniform, we had to cut the buttons off and then on the June 2nd I signed the contract with Camp Co, at the Rockefeller Plaza. FB: What did you know about China at this time? CB: Absolutely nothing. FB: Once again, I knew absolutely nothing about China. CB: About China, I knew absolutely nothing. That was a place I hadn't been to and I wanted to see. That's about all I could say at the time. I didn't know anything about their customs or like you said, I knew nothing about China. FB: What did you know or hear about through news reels or anything like that about Japan or what was going on in China? CB: Other than we thought, I think most of us thought, that a couple companies of Marines could probably go in and clean their clocks, that's about what we thought. We didn't know nothing about the Japanese. You take them looking at a, maybe our powers that be did, I don't know, after Pearl Harbor, I don't think our powers that be knew everything they're supposed to know. FB: In terms, you mentioned that somebody told you about the AVG, but how did you actually hear about this opportunity? What was the process? CB: I believe there was a notice on the bulletin board. No I, when we first heard about the AVG, it wasn't called the AVG, it was tied up with the Camp Co, or Continental Aircraft Manufacturing Corporation. was the cover and I really don't, I think it was on the bulletin board, but I really don't remember. FB: What was your motivation, and why get involved in this? I mean, were you satisfied with where you were, or? 2 �CB: Well, I was the Staff Sgt., I'd been through Air Corps. Tech. School and I was perfectly happy and I went in the service in 1939, 1941, I was a Staff Sgt., Air Corps. was expanding and I was not unhappy with what I was doing, in fact I liked work. But I also liked to travel, and let's face it, there was the money consideration. And like I said, it was $72 as compared to $350 and you finished your contract, you got $500 bonus and that's really the reason I went. I didn't have any dumpses?, I didn't like the, when I went in I had planned to spend my 20 or 30 and get off, I was going to be career airman, because the military was something that I was always interested in. FB: What was it that Skip Adair told you in terms of what you were to be doing and what to expect? CB: Well, when Skip Adair was talking to us at Trumbull Field I really didn't understand too much of what we'd be doing, we'd have a fighter squadron there, a fighter group, and whatever your job was that's what you would work on and that was about all we knew. We were just going to another country and to get paid for, that's really about all I knew about it. FB: Could you describe for us the process? If you could describe for us the process of resigning your commission and what was it you actually had to do and did you have any difficulties in getting out? CB: Well, when they came to get me out of the service, I was an enlisted man. I didn't resign no commission. I had a Staff Sgt. pin at war which they gave us at that time, but it was all automatic - we just reported in for discharge and got rid of our clothing and they gave us an honorable discharge convenience of the Government and we went out of the base. That was the end of it. There was no, in fact, I don't know whether it was a relief or what, when I went through the gate, I said well I'm starting a new something or other and anyway, when I went off base I was running around with a gal in Weehawken, New Jersey at the time, so I had to go see her. That's Ft. Willis time. And on the bus going back, I lost my wallet, $150 bucks lost. So when I got home I was broke and my dad said where are you going? I said I'm going to China, yes I'm making $350, he said well I'm making $50 a week so he said be my guest. So that was the whole story of it. Went down to Sunbury, Sunbury, Pennsylvania. and Carl Bugler, and I think it was Rich Graham and we went by train to L.A. and there was a whole bunch of us on the train and I remember stopping in Wyoming and Johnny Fauth and a bunch of them wanted pistols and you stop at Cheyenne, Wyoming, and you can go to the nearest pawn shop and buy the whole store out if you had the money, so we took Johnny Fauth and a bunch of them and I bought them all pistols. Being I was supposed to be the expert, I really wasn't. They thought I was. And we bought a bunch of pistols and stopped in Cheyenne. We went on to west coast and then they put us up at the Jonathan Club and that was, they made a big mistake at the Jonathan Club. Here's a bunch of young GI's that just retired and everybody thinks there, whatever you want to call them, and guys started running up phone bills, that's the first time in my life I ever had grapefruit served in a silver container with a big spoon and 3 �all of that stuff, and I thought, boy we're living high on cotton right now. They moved us out of there and we went by bus to San Francisco. FB: I would like to get a little more detail. Could you describe your own personal observations, your reactions, arriving at the Jonathan Club in Los Angeles? CB: Well, we got off the train and I think we took a taxi to the Jonathan Club and walked in to it and it was a big, old building, soft leather chairs, and all that sort of stuff and looked to me like there was a bunch of, I didn't know at the time what they were, they were very dignified gentlemen, gray haired, I found out later more of them were retired Admirals and Captains and Generals and what have you, how they let our bunch in there, I have no idea but maybe the [?] had something to do with it. And I was very impressed with the meals and the being served by a butler and in the meantime the fellows were having quite a time, they were just turned loose and here we've been under fairly strict discipline and marching from point A to point B with everything buttoned up and we were turned loose, fellows started running up long distance phone calls and charging this and charging that and I think the bills got out of hand and in the meantime, Joe Poshefko, my friend, came down with appendicitis and they had to take him to the hospital. He was one of the reasons he didn't make our, he was on the original bus that went over but he didn't make it on account that he had had appendicitis and because I just know at the time I was just wondering what happened to Joe, I thought he had just gone over the hill or something, but he hadn't, he was sick. And other than that, I don't remember too much about the Jonathan Club, everything is sort of hazy, what went on there. FB: Now once the decision was made to leave the Jonathan Club, I understand you were going to San Francisco, I wonder if you could describe how you got to San Francisco? CB: Well, when we left the Jonathan Club, for San Francisco, we went by bus. On a chartered bus. And I remember going up there - it was hotter than a pistol. The fellows got us a big old washtub and they filled it fill with ice and they filled it full of booze and beer and we got about half way up there and I remember getting off the bus, we had a short rest stop. There was no facilities. So have you ever seen about 15 guys lined up along the highway doing their thing? And most of them were pretty well smashed. But I can remember that because I took a picture of when I was there. I think the driver was glad to get rid of us when we got to San Francisco. And I don't remember even the name of the hotel that we stayed at when we got to San Francisco. I remember we spent the night there, I don't remember where we stayed, we didn't stay there very long, they got us on a boat to get our butts out of there. I think the States were about as glad to get rid of us as anything else. FB: Now, at this time it was around June 1941, you boarded a boat called the President Pierce, I wonder if you can give us your observation of the boat itself and your reaction to it. CB: Well, when we left San Francisco, we were on a cargo passenger ship called the President Pierce, the U.S. President Alliance and of course, we thought we'd have some kind of 4 �state rooms and this was the first time I began to exactly wonder what we were getting in to because they put us up at one of the lounge or lobby, all we had were cots and we were really crowded, the whole bunch of us was in, I don't think Frillman was, but everybody else was in cots in this lounge. And we took off and sailed from there to Hawaii. We got to Hawaii, in the meantime, we also had a bunch of kooks going over there going to the Philippines. When we got to Hawaii, we were there overnight. And I remember old P.J. Perry coming on board and at that time, booze was pretty cheap in Hawaii and so old P.J. come staggering on board and he had a jug of liquor on his shoulder trying to get up the gang plank. And he made it but I don't know how. And anyway, we left and we gave the Colonel a tough time, going over there. He always had an inspection - everyday he had an inspection - and I really didn't see any reason why I had to pop to because he came by, being 21 years old, when he came by, he'd reamed me up one end or the other so I went and told the fellows. Next morning the whole bunch of us was sitting back on the fantail waiting for us. And he came back there and all the, he took one look, he just turned around and walked away, Frillman had called us in to have a meeting, and said the Captain would appreciate it if you fellows make yourselves scarce when they have a, when the Colonel. does an inspection, but we wouldn't have put up with that stuff. And I think that would give you an idea of what kind of guys we had. We knew our job but we wasn't going to put up with a bunch of other stuff. FB: Give us as much as possible, we read the Frillman book and his real trepidation, he was nervous around, of letting you guys know that he was even a Chaplain to begin with, I don't want you to answer yet, give me a brief answer, you did meet him in the hotel right? CB: I think we did, I don't really remember, I just remember him being on the boat. We no doubt had met him, but I remember him being on the boat, because that's when he started calling names and, FB: OK. We want all that detail, on the boat then. 5 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Baisden_Chuck_1991-06-08_v01 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Baisden, Charles Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-06-08 Title A name given to the resource Chuck Baisden interview (video and transcript, 1 of 11), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Chuck Baisden by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Chuck Baisden was an armorer of the AVG 3rd Squadron, "Hell's Angels." He joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in 1941 after signing a covert contract with Continental Aircraft Mfg. Co. He was with the first forces to reach Burma and was stationed at Mingaladon and Magwe, Burma and Loiwing, Mengshi, and Kunming, China. He left the AVG at the expiration of his contract in 1942 and enlisted as a T/Sgt. in the US Army. In this tape, Chuck Baisden describes his background in the American Air Corps before becoming involved with the American Volunteer Group and his journey overseas from San Francisco. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3f8d135dff58fc1e634beb4bccd4fa92.mp4 483588b4f077c578197d3bd5e9412b4d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7e86b6539490755ec2508f3f621f5777.pdf a1bdbcd742bdfa8353965c12ed61a9f4 PDF Text Text RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Chuck Baisden Date of interview: June 8, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [BREAK – TAPE 10] FB: Let's begin with, the only time you saw Chennault get really upset. CB: The only time I remember about Chennault really being upset is that he lost his cool. There was a period of time when the army B-25 landed at Kunming. And Gen. Chennault came down, the regular operator was dead, the plane was full of holes, and we found out the story was that those planes were supposed to take off from India, fly to Kunming and then we'd take them from there. Well, the Army and all the glorious wisdom decided that they would make little bombing raid on Lashio. They knew nothing about Lashio. Not really. So they decided to bomb Lashio and they'd immediately run low on fuel and they got jumped by Jap fighters. Who were, I think were already in Latio. The radio operator was killed, they lost I think 3 planes, and they lost two of them. At least that's from my best recollection. This was landed and Chennault heard the story and he took his hat off and he threw it on the ground and kicked it. And I don't know what he said, cause he walked away with his back to me but he was mad. And the only thing I heard was this was unnecessary. Because he had places, they could have gone in to several other bases for gas if he'd known it, they could have bet on the whether, there's a bunch of things they could have done, but they didn't tell him. He didn't know about it. And this was really unfortunate and I guess they probably have that problem all of the time. FB: Around this time towards the end, there was some rumors that were strung around about the AVG is coming to an end, there's Army Air Corp coming in, I wonder if you could comment on that period of time. CB: Well, these rumors started flying there probably May. And of course we thought we were going to be abducted right into the service. But then we found out that beyond foreign soil, you cannot enlist, they can't draft you, it has to be voluntary induction which I had never heard of before and they set up some king of a board and interviewed everybody and asked what it would take to stay in. Well, I had made my mind up that I was going to go back to the States. Or I was going to ask for something I really didn't believe they'd give me but I was going to try and if I'd got it, I'd stayed. Well when I got, our squad commander was the one that interviewed us. And they said what do you say to stay? And I said if you give me the permanent board to the Master Sergeant, and you'd give me temporary First Lt., I'll stay. I never heard any more about it. That was something I didn't get and I didn't think I'd get, but I was going to try for it. That was the closest I'd ever got to getting the commission. Anyway, that was the whole story on that Of course, we'd had the big talk by this General, this General came in there, Burton or Britain, he came in. 1 �FB: Let's start again, the General came in by the name of Bissell. CB: There was a general that came in by the name of Bissell. And we weren't impressed, I know he wasn't impressed, we weren't impressed with what we saw, I think he thought that everybody was going to pop to and do whatever he wanted us to do and he laid it on the line, he didn't tell us, there was no kindness into it, he said if you don't go into the service, the Draft Board will meet you when you get off the boat or the plane, you'll get no help for transportation, in other words everything was negative. Then it just turned everybody off. He probably did more damage that anybody who were there, not if. And another thing Chennault did not, to me, did not ask any of us to stay. If Chennault would have said, Charlie, we need your help, I'd probably would have stayed, but he never did, and I heard later that he refused to do that. He was not going to push people into staying. I think he did call some of them like Tex Hill and some of them aside, and said I really need you, he did call some of those people in. But the most of the crowd he didn't, He didn't push us or say anything, so when the time come, we just left and we just walked away and left. We had a lot of Army people come in there. They were trying to teach us armors, aircraft armors, they had orders for people who knew nothing about aircraft armament, and they had one fellow who was standing out the flight line, he was scratching his back on the wing guns and as the guy in the cockpit turns on the switches and hits the relay and that put a burst to the middle of his back, blew him 15 feet away from the left. Of course, they didn't know if there was a padlock inside the aircraft, they had relays. If he hit one of those relays, that would fire the gun, you didn't have to pull the trigger, they'd fire the guns, and whoever was in there, they didn't know. And another fellow came by he was some officer, I didn't know who he was, he didn't like the way we had some stuff stacked there, he said this stuff should be stacked neat. and I guess we told him to get lost. But whatever it was, we didn't do it. And then we got, and when we do go in, these guys are really going to lay it in to us. I don't think they did because they needed all the experience at the time because these fellows didn't know, they were in Kunming, that was about it. Because it don't take long when you get under active combat conditions you know what to do and you learn it or you got big problems. FB: I wonder if you could comment on a particular aspect of what you talked about, when you went out to China, actually to Burma first and then China, one of the things that you made very clear, was that you guys already knew what you were doing, you'd already had the training and everything else, it was getting use to the conditions and everything but basically you knew your job. From that perspective and now you've had almost a year of experience what was your evaluation of the new people coming in? CB: My evaluation of the people coming in was that they were friendly, most of them, particularly the fellows we associated with, they wanted to learn but they didn't know anything. They were completely in the dark of what was going on. They were trying to train people that didn't have any experience in the aircraft [?] No doubt they would learn, they just didn't know, not no doubt they wouldn't learn, but no I think one of my biggest problems were that stuff we had was getting worn out. And of course, most of the fellows cam out alright. I didn't work with any of them hardly at all before I left because I left a little bit early. 2 �FB: Describe, CB: We did start to get aircraft invasion from the old H-81, P-40, we started to get the Emodels in and that was a lot better airplane it had 650 caliber machine guns underway and they had drop tanks and it had the place to put bombs in the wings and it was a much better aircraft. But we didn't have any, we were using Russian bombs, we were using Chinese bombs, most of them had to be adaptive to the aircraft, they wouldn't fit, we had some problems with ammunition and our gun sites on the old models were just about had it, the things were just getting worn out and P-models why, they were going to do alright. That was about it. Things were just, we'd had the stuff so long that actually the replacements, and they had to bring them from a long way, they had to go all the way to Accra, the Gold Coast to get them. FB: Let me ask you this, in a quote, unquote, normal army air Corp. operation, would this equipment that you had, been kept in service that long or what would normal military procedure be in that regard? CB: They'd had probably thrown it away and got new ones. FB: I want to hear that. In terms of the P-40s and the amount of wear and tear on them, and then say they would have thrown them apart. CB: Well, let's put it in perspective. If you don't have the equipment, you've got to use what you have. If you've got lost of equipment, you use the new equipment. And that's just the way it was. Now I know later on when I was over there again, we went through three bombers. None of them were any class 6. I mean they were totaled out, but when something would break, we'd get a new one. I know in China, we couldn't do it, we didn't have the stuff, we had to use what we had. And I don't think the Air Corp. was capable of handling it, they couldn't handle it, they didn't have the people that could do this, they didn't have the machine shops and all this sort of stuff, so my system, my idea of what it was, if it was broke, they'd have to get a new one. I don't think they could have coped with them. And what they did, they got new equipment, and I don't know what happened to the old P-40's because I left and they were still there. I wouldn't mind having one today, but.... FB: Let's look at, there was an incident you had mentioned about, of a plane exploding on the runway? CB: Oh, the Chinese plane? Well, the Chinese were flying a Russian-made biplane and it had a, I don't know what kind of engine it had, but I know it had four synchronized RussianScotch machine guns and that's an army's nightmare right there, to have four of those things. And the Chinese was fooling around with bombs and they had rigged a bomb rack for this aircraft. They'd hung the bomb beneath it, a bomb has got what you call an army vein on it. An army vein goes through an army wire which is hooked to the bomb [chakle?]. And when the bomb is dropped armed, this pin or wire stays with the aircraft, 3 �let's the propeller spin, well the propeller has got to spin so many times in order to arm the bomb. They didn't have one of these, so they had a mechanic hold the propeller over the bomb, the army vein, until he started taxying. When he started taxying, naturally the army vein spins off which arms the bomb, well now the bomb isn't going to off until something it knows strikes something. Well, it evidentially hit a rock and Kunming hit a lot of gravel and evidentially, he's taxying by and the plane just blows up - just completely disintegrates, we didn't find nothing of the pilot. And the engine, when it took off, it went, it must have gone into the air, 75 feet in the air, it was roaring, the engine all by itself, the tail went that way and the wings went and later on they had one of the Chinese pilots, he was going to give us a demonstration. He was going to give us a low fly-over. He comes bopping over and his airplane made a rather peculiar sound when he came over, but he came bopping over and all of a sudden the tail starts to go like this, and evidentially, the pilot didn't have a safety belt on, because all of a sudden when it went up, he just went sailing right out of the cockpit. He hit his leg on the horizontal stabilizer and got his shoot off, but he wasn't that high but he did get his shoot open and he came down with a broken leg. And we had heard that the Chinese had to shoot him because he did this. I don't whatever did happen to him, but I think his career as a pilot went down the drain. He didn't impress anybody. I know we all were standing there looking at him, it was funny in a way, because it actually did look rather hilarious, this guy getting thrown out of this airplane. And D. Poshefko was there with me, I think P.J. Prairie and there was about four or five of us armorers standing watching this whole procedure. FB: If you could explain how that came about and what actually transpired. CB: Well, our contract called for a year's engagement but with a 30 day leave with good counting, you got a 30-day leave. Now see they were organizing this outfit for the, it was really called First American Volunteer Group, there was another unit that followed us, and they were scarfed up when the war broke up and wound up in Australia. They were supposed to have a couple of fighter units and a bomber unit and all that stuff. So when the time came up, I had this 30-day leave and so we just got turned loose. early and we got a, we did get an Army transfer out of Kunming. The pilot told us, he drives me down there, he said I'll take you up because these guys were all for, it was William's trying to keep us from going anyplace. so they weren't supposed to fly us anyplace, but he said you be down there at the end of the runway, I'm leaving at such and such a time in the morning, he says, so I'll, we flew in to Karachi. We got into Karachi and we went to the American Council, and he said take a train, go to Bombay and sit, you'll be notified. Which is what we did, we were in Bombay 30 days and we found an apartment, there were 3 or 4 of us in the apartment with some British troops, soldiers, that was a nice place, except I got liver, kidneys, and every Wednesday they had kidney pie and those kidneys were raunchy because you could smell them cooking them in the morning. That was horrible. I found out you could buy Coca-Cola extract for $18/gallon and we'd get the Coca-Cola extract and a the bearer, the servant we had, would bring us in the seltzer water and we would get Indian Rum and we drank a lot of Rum-Coke while were there, now a gallon of Coke-extract goes a long ways. And we had, we put on a big party and we had a good time in Bombay, I forget who was with me, I think, I forget who was with me and all of a sudden they notified us, they said be at the boat dock and such a such a 4 �time and the Mariposa came in there and that's what we came back on, then they charged us a, I think it was supposed to be about $3/day for transportation, it was a troop ship. Well, I rangled my way on the gun crew so I didn't know anything about a, you see the Navy had the radio, Army Coast Guard artillery, out artillery had the gun system, the weapons, they had one five-incher and two-three inchers in the fan tail, they had one big one in the front, they had a lot of machine guns. The Mariposa was fast, a submarine couldn't catch it. Unless it was ahead of it. Then we went unescorted. When we left, there was a bunch of, a whole bunch of us, they gave all the pilots to man the machine guns, we were never attacked there, but they, and I got on one of the candidates as a gun pointer, I had a young Corporal Sgt. there check me out, of course I told him I knew all about it, I didn't know a damn thing about it but they didn't either, so it didn't make any difference. So we came back on the Mariposa. And we came down and we stopped at Cape Town and as we left Bombay the riots broke out, that was in August, the riots broke out in Bombay, because I remember the British troops coming in there, they put a machine gun up in our room, up in the belfry, a little dorm they had up there, and I remember they had hobnail boots, and we could hear these guys running up and down the steps, a lot of racket, we didn't know what was going on, and as we got out of Bombay, we had a torpedo fired at us, and a ship, they said, I didn't see it, but they said it was a torpedo that had been fired at us, and then we went to Cape Town and we were degauzed at Cape Town. Now degauzing is when they rap a lot of cables around your ship and they demagnetize it for magnetic lines. And then we headed for the States and we came up around thru Panama, we'd seen all that stuff floating in the water and the German submarines were just blowing the heck out of everything in there. We didn't know at the time what it was, we'd got to [Wehauka?] and I got in trouble with the Customs and I had a first-aid kit that I'd got it out of a British fighter - it had a sea of ampoule of morphine in it and the Customs found it, and oh, they let it land on me with a ton of bricks. I said look, I'd been carrying this thing around for 5 months, it was sealed, I said it's a first-aid kit, it had injection violet which they use for burns and there was compresses and but they, I had an Indian suitcase and they went through that, they even tried to take it apart. They thought I was a, they had a live one. Anyway, they finally let me go. I said take it, throw it away, or you can have it, whatever you want. I said I didn't have any idea I was going to get in trouble cause I got this thing. They were, they went through my pictures, and the guy was taking out, he didn't take my negatives, but he was taking pictures he wanted to keep himself. He had it approved down here, he said he'd have to sensor these. And he took about 25 off me and, but he left the negatives, but he wanted them for himself is what he wanted. And that was the whole story. Then I went to my girlfriend's house, found out she'd gotten married while I was gone 5 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Baisden_Chuck_1991-06-08_v10 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Baisden, Charles Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-06-08 Title A name given to the resource Chuck Baisden interview (video and transcript, 10 of 11), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Chuck Baisden by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Chuck Baisden was an armorer of the AVG 3rd Squadron, "Hell's Angels." He joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in 1941 after signing a covert contract with Continental Aircraft Mfg. Co. He was with the first forces to reach Burma and was stationed at Mingaladon and Magwe, Burma and Loiwing, Mengshi, and Kunming, China. He left the AVG at the expiration of his contract in 1942 and enlisted as a T/Sgt. in the US Army. In this tape, Chuck Baisden discusses the final days of the AVG and the arrival of the Army Air Corps, in addition to their meeting with General Bissell to discuss the weeks ahead. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/25e444c4b39481346f8233a54723e56a.mp4 dabb852c08b9a39cc17559cc94732042 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f289dfe8a25892d7fec8424b719bd413.pdf 36b6b5040fdd178eff409a1c63d25dfd PDF Text Text RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Chuck Baisden Date of interview: June 8, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 11] FB: Finally, we'd gotten through to this point, these are all reminiscence kind of things, no specific questions per se, no incidents per se, more of your reflections on. The last few questions on war, your opinion, if you will, your reflection, just your own view of what has happened, so it's not so much the specific airplanes, or anything like that, it's more philosophic, your evaluation. To start off with, were there any deaths that occurred during the AVG period of time that had a particular impact on you? CB: I think the worst one was Johnny Fauth. Because Johnny and I were good friends, I knew he lived in the red line Ta. Johnny was an Atheist. He was a, because he got in some terrific arguments, he said if I get killed, throw me in a hole and cover me up, that's it. And so of course, that shook a lot of people up, but Johnny was a good mechanic and he and I were real good friends and I think Johnny Fauth was probably, really affected me as much as anything. And then of course, Pete Atkinson was another one and Neil Martin, all those guys were killed but Fauth was the one that I knew him, I bought his pistol for him, he slept in the, next to me in the barracks and that I think was maybe one of the things. We were all in the same boat and we all had an equal chance of buying the farm, so to speak, but Johnny Fauth was, and if you ever talked to this Ole Olson, he named his P-47 Johnny Fauth. I've got a picture of it in the back room that he named his P-47 after Johnny Fauth because him and Johnny were both mechanics together. FB: How do you look at the Military's attitude towards the AVG? CB: Well, the Military attitude toward the AVG, I can't blame the military some ways, they were pulling on a lot of, at the time they had the big Air Force, Air Corps expansion. They were pulling out qualified people. Now no squadron commander wants to lose people. Chennault had made a lot of enemies, Gen. Chennault had made a lot of enemies with the high ranks and that of course, he was one of the reason he was out of the Service. He was a, he just got out of the Service because they didn't want him around.. I had my own opinions of Gen. Chennault, I think Gen. Chennault was a brilliant tactician, I don't agree with him as far as winning the war with air power, there's no way he could have done that, but he was that way with it. Gen. Stillwell was on the ground power, you've got to have everybody. I really don't believe that the Japanese had attacked at us like they could have. I mean they'd wipe us out. There was no way we could have stood up to them. I don't think that they had thought they were going to run in to what they'd run in to, but I think, I also think that a Military outfit is a much better way to run a war, than with a voluntary unit. I put 20 years in the military in the sack and you see what they did at W-Sealed, these guys are well trained, they're well motivated, and that's the way 1 �you win wars. I really believed that if we'd have gone over there, they'd have really clobbered us. That would have been the end of the Tigers. FB: What about the military attitude about the AVG sort of at the end, they had a lot of treatment towards different, well they were trying to keep us there, there was a lot of jealousy - there were a lot of these fellows that wanted to make a name for themselves. I didn't have run in to any personal things myself, I didn't have any bone to pick with any of them. I just know what some of the fellows had said, I do know that the powers of B did everything in their powers to keep us there, and I think some of it was pretty petty, I think we could have done away, if Bissel had not done what he'd done, I think that they had probably would have made at least 50 percent of the AVG. FB: The last two questions and be careful, the last three questions, if you need some time to think about it, please feel free, and its brief history.. CB: I think the AVG accomplished in the history it was in, the biggest thing was that we were the only one's that were doing anything in America. We'd had Pearl Harbor, we had got wiped out of Pearl Harbor, we lost Corregidor, we'd lost the Philippines, the Navy was sunk, we didn't have equipment over there, and we were the only ones that were doing anything. And I think as a morale booster, it really helped the country. People were grasping for straws, they wanted something that they could hang on to. And say, hey, I'm an American and we're doing something good. As the war progressed, why then when we got in to it, everybody got in to it, then it had turned into a different story. But I think that's the biggest thing - it was a big book, it was like Jimmy Doolittle, Gen. Doolittle accomplished nothing as far as tying Japan on a hawk. But it was a big morale booster - it showed Japan it could be done and it showed at least we're trying to do something. but as far as military, it didn't do anything. FB: What do you think the effect was for the Chinese people? CB: From what I see of the Chinese, it was a big, they couldn't do enough for us - they had been bombed and bombed and bombed and well we were there to stop that and on the whole it stopped. And of course, when the 14th Air Force took over, the Japs never hit Kunming again - not to my knowledge. FB: What do you think you personally accomplished during that period of time? CB: Oh, gee, there was a period of my life, I don't think that I got over yet, at this stage of the game, but I learned a lot. I learned a lot about the traveling around, as far as my own skills as an armor, I had a lot of skills at that and it's something like, I just keep remembering it, it still comes back to me and then I loose names and some will pop up and I'll say, gee I was there, I was never dissatisfied that I joined the unit. I think that later on, there was some rumor that Chennault, Gen. Chennault was doing something, wanted to start something else up with the Chinese Communists, I didn't think I wanted any part of it. I never heard the whole story on it, but I had heard rumors that he was 2 �trying to get another thing going to fight the Communists, I don't, whether it was true or not. FB: How did the period of time during the AVG, how did that affect the rest of your life? CB: Well, I was through, I probably would have never Will. When I went back into the service, I got tied up with Ole Olson - we went into pilot training, and I met her on the west coast, so it probably changed my whole life, really, what I would have been doing otherwise, I probably would have ended up in Greenland with the unit that was stationed there at Mitchell Field, say I went to Greenland for a while and of course, I ran into some people later on, Phil Cochrane, he was, he and Jimmy Allison headed up the Commando unit and that was one hell of an outfit. It was the same thing as the Tigers. They got people in there, there was no T and R, table of organization, we had [Mario? Enrack?] floating around, shaking a stick at and we flew to, I flew up to 3 missions in one day and all I had time was to smoke a cigarette and we were over the bomb line, you might say it that way and Cochrane was a G.I. soldier from way back - as long as you did your job, we had some people come in there and they got a little ticked off because the guys weren't shaving and he put a thing in the bulletin board, Support Powers of B that don't look like our parents, now we're doing a job he said, but it would be nice if you did scrape off some of the rough stuff, the next time they come around, stuff like that. FB: Final questions, what is your own personal opinion, not that has to do with newspapers, or reporters, or anything like that, what does it feel like from you to be called a Flying Tiger? CB: Well, in a way, I'm proud of the name, I wasn't a pilot, and so I really wasn't a Flying Tiger, I'm a Flying Tiger in a sense, I did the job but I wasn't one of the guys that did the thing. Of course, I'm very proud of what I did, I wanted to fly an airplane real bad, and I never, I just didn't have the ability to do it. And I might say that I just, there was no outfit like it, there probably never will be another one. I know I felt left out for this, I felt like I was left out of it. Now I know I'm too old for it, the mind was willing but the body wasn't able. But I wouldn't mind being over there. That's an idiotic statement, but I still wouldn't mind being over there. But my wife would have something to say about that. 3 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Baisden_Chuck_1991-06-08_v11 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Baisden, Charles Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-06-08 Title A name given to the resource Chuck Baisden interview (video and transcript, 11 of 11), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Chuck Baisden by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Chuck Baisden was an armorer of the AVG 3rd Squadron, "Hell's Angels." He joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in 1941 after signing a covert contract with Continental Aircraft Mfg. Co. He was with the first forces to reach Burma and was stationed at Mingaladon and Magwe, Burma and Loiwing, Mengshi, and Kunming, China. He left the AVG at the expiration of his contract in 1942 and enlisted as a T/Sgt. in the US Army. In this tape, Chuck Baisden reflects on the overall accomplishments of the AVG and the effect that period of time had on the rest of his life. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/03fbe0ef94e876410cdcda615b3fe77a.mp4 bc3865f3e68de239a51c6d49140a5271 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b1e0dc5da37568915943e1cb271f5825.pdf d905a323962ea7adf6e41cfe33a78ab6 PDF Text Text RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Chuck Baisden Date of interview: June 8, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 2] FB: Tell us about your reactions to and your observations about Chaplain Frillman? CB: Well Paul Frillman, Chaplain Frillman, I don't remember when I first met him, but I do remember him being on the boat after we left San Francisco and I respected him because he was very fluent in Chinese and I knew he had a heck of a job on his hands, trying to control it and - I think he was a little apprehensive. But he was trying to do his job the best he could and some of the fellows listened to him, some of them didn't, but I liked the fellow. He'd been a missionary over there, he could speak Mandarin. I don't know if he could speak Cantonese or not and he had a little language class while we were going over there and we learned How Bu How and - I think that was about it - all I remember anyway. Personally I didn't run into him much during the - after we got over to China I didn't see too much of him, he was around but… FB: What was his responsibility for one thing and then what kind of things did he try to do on the boat that either you reacted positively or negatively to? CB: Well Jack [?] when we were on the boat was more or less in charge of him. I think probably Mr. Pawley was the one that put him in charge and he - actually what he did, he tried to smooth things over on the boat going over. But we had several incidents on the boat. One being an Army Colonel who would make an inspection every day - he would make an inspection and I was sitting back in the fan tail one morning and he came by and all the young Lieutenants popped to and I sat there, I didn't see any reason to get up. Boy he chewed me out from end to the other and left. Well I went and told the rest of the gang. So the next morning we were all sitting there waiting for him, none of us was going to get up. He stuck his head out of the port hole and he took one look and he turned around and went back. Then Paul Frillman came in and he said "Fellows the Captain of the ship requests that you don't be back in the fan tail when the Army Colonel makes his inspection in the morning," and we didn't, we left it alone. He didn't really come forward being the guy that was gonna tell you this and tell you that. He didn't do that. Like I say he was just sort of like a speaker for us, other than that we didn't have much to do with him. FB: In terms of the Army discipline that was on the boat with these other soldiers, what was the reaction of the AVG group on - give us a sense of - here you are, you just got out of the military and for your various reasons you're going to China and here's this Army group on board that has to stand up to attention and all that. 1 �CB: Well our feelings with the Army troops on board, we really didn't have much to do with them. Of course the troops themselves, we didn't hardly see anything of them and the officers, the young officers, most of them were Air Corps and I wasn't talking. I might have talked to them, but I wasn't saying where I was going - I just didn't do any talking. We just said we were going to China and that was it. Of course these fellows were going to the Philippines. So I really didn't have too much to do with them. Not that I didn't like them, but we actually spent most of the time playing nickel knock poker going over. We played nickel knock poker day in and day out and that was about the only thing we could do. FB: What was the - I guess what I'm looking for is - you're on this boat, you're playing poker, you're meeting these new guys from all over the country, what was the process of getting to know these guys - some that you liked, some that you didn't like CB: Believe it or not, when we were on the boat there were 28 of us I think or 29 of us, we knew almost everybody. Most of the fellows had been from the East Coast. We did pick up some from Selfridge? Field and the Air Corps at that time was pretty much of a family. If you'd been in the Air Corps a couple of years, you knew a lot of people and that was just about what it was. I just knew everybody and of course we had our own little - 4 or 5 of us used to pal around together and that's the way it was. Really we didn't spend too much time characterizing each other. We were just a bunch of guys and that's what it amounted to. FB: What kind of incidents can you recall that happened on the boat itself? Were there any humorous things that happened or anything that you can - sticks out in your mind? CB: When we were on the boat, I don't remember much of anything on the boat other than that it was rather boring. See we went from Hawaii to the Philippines. Now we stayed in the Philippines - they had - I forget what they had on board at the Philippines - their ship - but they had to steam clean all the tanks, and I think they took coconut oil on or palm oil and we must have been there 10 days. Well they gave us $100 expense money when we left San Francisco, which everybody had spent by the time they got to Hawaii and I remember being on the boat because we were broke and we spent one night at the Grayson Hotel. Well we spent the rest of the time on the boat because we didn't have any money. They gave us checks and I remember Rick Schramm and I were on the same check, they didn't have enough checks to go around, but they wouldn't cash it for us in the Philippines, so we spent 2 or 3 days drinking Sasparilla and Philippine gin and it's quite a mixture. Sasparilla is something like our sarsaparilla and you mix it with Philippine gin and you've got quite a…and of course we perked up there. One of the fellows had been stationed in the Philippines and he had to take us to one of them big cabarets. I mean it was a big thing. It had a big old second floor rotunda around it and things were pretty cheap. We left there and we went to Hong Kong and they cashed our checks at Hong Kong. The Chinese came in and scarfed up all our weapons. Every one we had they took them, locked them up in the Police Station and I think they were sprayed with water anyway they were all rusty when we got them back. We stayed there just overnight I think it was, left there and then we took another boat to Singapore. And we left quite a 2 �record in Singapore. We stayed in Singapore at the Raffles Hotel. We had quite a time at the Raffles. FB: Now this is where we need some detail because the next group that came over was not even allowed off the boat because of the record that you guys made in Singapore. Can you give us an idea of what happened after you got off the boat? CB: Well, we got off the boat at Singapore and went to the Raffles. I just remember my first acquaintance with a Dutch widow and I don't know whether you fellows have ever met a Dutch widow or not, but it's a long roll that you curl around at night to keep you from sweating so bad and it's called a Dutch widow. Of course we had fans going above us and mosquito nets and it was hotter than a pistol there in Singapore. I remember going around - we went to the Tiger Balm Gardens and we went to the Happy World Dance Cabaret and Charlie Kenner - we were there one night and Charlie Kenner won the jitterbug contest. Later on I talked to some of the Japanese and they said "Oh we went there too". So they occupied the same place. I don't remember how long we stayed in Singapore. Then we went to Panang. I gotta backtrack - we took a Dutch Packet Boat from Hong Kong to Singapore and then from Singapore we went to Panang and then onto Rangoon. We had an English ship that from what I heard belonged to the Kaiser and it was a settlement after World War I - it was a settlement that he'd made. It wasn't too much of a ship but that's how we got into Rangoon. So we actually came on over in three ships. FB: I guess the way I'll word this question is, why was it that later groups were not even allowed off the ship into Singapore? What happened that caused such a commotion? CB: Well when we were in Singapore some of the fellows may have made a name - I remember one of them that happened, they were booted out of the swimming club because of their curfews. I don't remember the reason. They pried up all the footbaths which must have weighed 4 or 5 hundred pounds apiece and they chucked them in the pool and that made the British very unhappy. Also bringing native women into the Raffles that tore up the British - I mean they couldn't stand that. I remember one fellow brought one in and she had a ring in her nose and she was dark and had a sarong on. He carted her in and sat her down at a table and got her smashed and that was probably one of the reasons they wouldn't let the rest of the guys in. I hung around with Carl Bugler and - I forgot the other fellows' names - but we didn't get involved in any of this. I lie a lot too. FB: Describe your arrival in Rangoon and I'll set this up for you. Here you are, you're a young American, you've never been out of the country at that time, what was your reaction, what was your observation on your arrival in Rangoon? CB: When we arrived in Rangoon it was in June, I remember going up the river to Rangoon and I remember it was hot, it was rainy and it didn't look like anything. When we got of the dock, I don't remember how we got to Midlow Mansions? - I think we went by taxi and we got in there and that's where I first saw General Chennault, he was there to meet us. They said now get your rooms ready and the Chinese are gonna give you a banquet 3 �tonight and 15 minutes after we got there, within a half an hour there were Japanese there from the embassy and they came rushing in. I know Tex Blaycock said "I'll throw one of them off the balcony" and they just looked around and they left - nothing really happened. That night we had a big banquet by the Chinese embassy and Chennault was there and that's when I got an impression of Chennault. Chennault looked to me like he was looking right through you and you could figure when he was looking at you, he was taking you on. I have an awful lot of respect for the man. He didn't say much. Anyway we went through an umpteen course dinner and spaced by many a shot of scotch whiskey and I guess the thing broke up around midnight and one of the fellows came up to Charlie and said "Charlie Chennault wants you to take the station wagon and the Burmese driver and you take the hold baggage to Taungoo." Now why I was picked I have no idea. Maybe I was the soberest one of the lot, I don't really know. But anyway [?] the Burmese driver and the old wooden station wagon - can't remember what the make of it was, but rattled on up to Taungoo and I got to Taungoo, met my first Ghurka troop - a little guy standing out there with a big stick and a big curved knife and we finally got the British officer, NCO, the officer out there and told them - they'd been expecting us. So I spent the night in the barracks with these little old lizards that kept dropping off the ceiling and I wondered what in the hell have I gotten myself into here. The next morning the troops came in, they came up by train and I went down to meet them. They must have had quite a trip coming up there because this one place they stopped, they grabbed a hold of P.J. Perry and they pulled off his trousers and the train pulled out and P.J. is running up the track trying to catch up with them with no trousers and I guess the natives thought that he had a new type of suit on or something, but anyway he got on the train. You never heard so much grouching in your life when we got into Taungoo, because Taungoo was a hole, I mean it was a hole. That was our introduction to Taungoo - we had no airplanes, the barracks were made out of teak and thatch and had outside johnnies, or heads, or lavatory, whatever you want to call them and rain. The rainy season was just getting over with, but it was raining, the humidity was 95%. FB: I'm gonna go back over about this Taungoo. What I'd like to ask is backtrack just a little bit. We're gonna talk in more detail about Taungoo - here you are on the [?] group, what happens to you? CB: Well that's like I say, when I first met Chennault, meanwhile he was looking us over, lord knows what he was thinking. But when I talked to him it was "Yes Sir" "No Sir," I had an awful lot of respect for the man and he looked like he'd been flying in an open cockpit airplane for 100 years. He was that type of fellow and you had to talk a little loud, he couldn't hear very well. I didn't have any long conversation with him at that time. I thought of Chennault like I thought of Phil Cochrane, when I was with him later in the Air Commandos, here's a guy that I'll follow and the same with him and Jimmy Allison was another one. FB: The question I want - this will be the last part of the meeting Chennault for the first time what I'm trying to get a sense of is this group to Chennault - was there an automatic - like this is the leader now we've gotta shape up or was it still this kind of treatment you gave the Army? 4 �CB: It's hard for me to say about the group - as an individual I had my own opinion and I can't really say about the group. I just don't know. I think some of them thought that they were getting in over their heads and they're gonna flip their way out, but I really don't know. I knew the way I felt - I was gonna do what I was supposed to do and I think most of us felt that way. There were times that we had doubts of what we - sometimes we had our doubts. It looked like it was a rinky dink going on - things we were told, didn't happen. I don't think it was the fault of General Chennault, it was just they didn't happen. FB: Give us a sense of what you mean by that. What were some of the things that you thought…? CB: Well see, when we got up to Taungoo it was hot, it was rainy, we weren't used to that kind of humidity, it was a pretty good hike down to where the flight line was, we had no airplanes. The airplanes were assembled at Rangoon and flown up and when the first planes got in there we didn't have any tools. We were using tools that came in the International pickups - the International station wagons was what we had. We used tools that came out of the trucks and that's not the tools to work on an aircraft with. Then the food, we had a private contractor - I forget what his name was - but he was ripping us off and were getting slop - absolutely it was terrible and on top of that - in the topics, no air conditioning, no refrigeration and things got smelly - we did have a pretty good little bar where we could get Batavia beer, I think it was and a few little items like that, cigarettes. So we got a little disgruntled. But then those planes started coming in and we got real busy. Because every one of the wing guns had to be filed down so you could fit the darn things in there. Aircraft had to be bore-sided and sights had to be installed - we were busy. And once we got busy - another story. 5 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Baisden_Chuck_1991-06-08_v02 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Baisden, Charles Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-06-08 Title A name given to the resource Chuck Baisden interview (video and transcript, 2 of 11), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Chuck Baisden by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Chuck Baisden was an armorer of the AVG 3rd Squadron, "Hell's Angels." He joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in 1941 after signing a covert contract with Continental Aircraft Mfg. Co. He was with the first forces to reach Burma and was stationed at Mingaladon and Magwe, Burma and Loiwing, Mengshi, and Kunming, China. He left the AVG at the expiration of his contract in 1942 and enlisted as a T/Sgt. in the US Army. In this tape, Chuck Baisden discusses his journey to join the AVG overseas and his observations upon their arrival in Rangoon. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/00b2c36d5e3dc4a62dfafad0a7e766e9.mp4 caa4c0fd83d8cd58291973ef8d006592 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9367e230f18b51902a5e76e428bdb564.pdf 757ea6a2d7f0da0e9e476e5d440f03da PDF Text Text RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Chuck Baisden Date of interview: June 8, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [BREAK – TAPE 3] FB: What we'd like to do now is to get your reaction to the conditions in Taungoo. Where were you, what were you working in, the environment you were working in, what were the barracks like - you already talked about the food, but give us an idea of the living arrangements and your work arrangements? CB: When we got into Taungoo and started to operate, the airplanes started coming in, the rainy season was still on but it was coming to the close of the rainy season. It rained about every day. When we first started working there, we only worked a half a day. The planes would come in and we'd start - we had an armor shop some little ways from the runway - we started putting the guns in them and the P-40 we had then had two synchronized 50 calibers and they had four wing - 30 caliber wing guns. After we got the guns in then we had to harmonize them and we had a place on the runway where we had our targets set up and we'd go over there and we'd try to get the pilots to come out there with them and we'd fire the 50 calibers with a screw driver because you couldn't fire synchronized guns unless the engine is running and you can't run the engine that fast. Actually synchronization is something that's gone down the road years ago, but when I was there at that period of time, your ability to armor was pretty much how well you knew that system because you could shoot a prop. FB: This part of it I want to spend a lot more time on and once again you're talking to a group of people that have no idea what you're talking about, so if you would, let's first get back to the conditions themselves in Taungoo, the barracks and your working environment. My next question actually was what your first duties were, but let's get the basic area straightened out first. CB: The living conditions in Taungoo were pretty primitive. We didn't have much. It was hot, it was humid, we had outside showers, we had outside latrines and at night when you went out there you'd take a flashlight because you usually had a scorpion sitting there next to you. I don't know if he had the G.I.'s or what but he'd be sitting there next to you waiting to give you a whack. We weren't impressed, but it's what we had. Most of us got bicycles as soon as we could. We could buy bicycles for about $30 and we started using bicycles to go back and forth. A lot of snakes - poisonous or not I don't know, but we had a lot of snakes and we'd see them on the road and they'd get under the barracks and they had centipedes and they had what they called a Burmese centipede which was about that long, they had real nasty looking legs on them. They said if they crawled across you they'd go like that and it would smart. Mainly we just weren't used to the weather, but we 1 �worked a half a day and took a half a day off. Then as we got busy we just worked from dawn to dusk we were busy. FB: What were the barracks like? CB: The barracks were British built barracks. We were all on long teakwood, thatched roof bamboo I guess it was. The beds were typical Indian beds, they were wood, probably teak, with slats across them or rope and a solid mattress and of course we had mosquito nets and that's just what it was, it didn't amount to too much. I've got a picture of it around here someplace - what my cot looked like. We had overhead lights and it wasn't too great. FB: Can you recall, for example at night laying there in the bed or something like that - the sounds - what kind of insects - do you remember any of that kind of stuff? CB: Well all I remember is the little chameleon lizards, which the Burmese were great for having, because they eat bugs. They'd fall off the ceiling - now they wouldn't hurt you and they took a little bit getting used to, but nights just were nights, I couldn't tell a great deal of difference from there or any other place except we didn't hear a lot of noise. It was rather quiet, you'd hear the crickets or whatever the noise was in the background - we didn't hear anything like tigers or anything like that roaring in the distance. Nights were relatively quiet. FB: Do you recall any incidents in which you had to confront a snake or any of those kind of… CB: One time we had one get underneath the barracks [BREAK] FB: Refer to the snake CB: One night one of the fellows yelled "There's a snake under the barracks." Everybody came running out, we're all armed with our pistols and so on and so forth and he must have popped 20 or 30 rounds under the barracks at that snake. Joe [?] finally threw his shoe at him, killed him with his shoe - we never did hit it with the guns. Another night our Armor Chief, Hoffman, said "Turn off the lights." Nobody answered. "I said turn off the G.D. lights" Nobody answered and Powww he shot them off. Shot the one over his head anyway. He said "I told you to turn off those lights" and some of the fellows started getting monkeys and the monkeys weren't very nice - most of them. They'd steal stuff off you and then get up in the rafters of the barracks and they weren't all that great. One fellow had one riding a bicycle and you'd see him going down the road on his bicycle, a monkey perched on the handlebars. Barracks life wasn't too much, but other than sleeping there, we didn't spend a lot time in them. After I had my bicycle we'd go up to from Taungoo we'd go outside the gate and head toward Prome and it was pretty nice riding the bike out there. Then as the season started cooling down a little bit, it wasn't too bad. I 2 �didn't think too much of the Burmese. The Burmese Pongees, the priests, they had free access of the base and they wandered all over the place and we had Burmese laborers working in the thing and then the Chinese came in so we had Chinese working for us. Like I say, the Third Squadron I was in had 25-30 aircraft and there were 5 armorers. Well 5 armorers can't handle it by themselves, so we - but that was it. No night life - we'd go down to Taungoo to a movie and they showed some real old ones and I don't remember what they were now - but we'd go down there and they'd play the British "God Save the Queen" and the "Star Spangled Banner" and we were down there one night and some British soldier down below us said "Where's the Yellow Stripe?" and that did cause a riot, because the first class was up in the balcony, that's where you sat - and then they'd have intermission where you'd get a drink or whatever you wanted, but when they closed this thing, we had a regular riot in there. Guys were jumping off the balcony down on top of them and it was quite a show. FB: Let's get more detail about this and I don't understand what a yellow stripe is - what caused all this? CB: They showed the American Flag FB: Let's start from the beginning. Give us an idea of what happened. CB: Well they played "God Save the Queen" and everybody stood up, then I guess for our benefit they played the "Star Spangled Banner" and they showed the American Flag and this fellow downstairs said "Where's the yellow stripe?" See they were in the war and we weren't. This was before the war started and when he said yellow stripe it just ticked everybody off and they didn't do that again. FB: I'm sorry to belabor the point but first of all we don't understand what yellow stripe means CB: A yellow stripe means coward. In Singapore too, same way. They had a regular riot in Singapore at the Happy Dance Cabaret. I jumped out the window and I left. I didn't stay there for that because they were clobbering everybody with - that may be another reason they wouldn't let the other guys land. I left, I don't even know what happened. I didn't want to know. But the British troops were not - the officers were friendly enough, a little starchy, but they were friendly, but the enlisted men were - they were something else. I remember a lot of nice Noncoms and stuff like that, but they weren't all that friendly until later on, then they got real friendly, when they were getting their butts beat, they got real friendly with us. FB: Let's go into your first duties in Taungoo once the airplanes started to arrive. You said you were on half days, then everything started to really pick up, but give us an idea what the work was like. What was the reaction of the people you were working around? Did everybody chip in or was there some guys that sloughed off and some that guys that worked? 3 �CB: Our work at Taungoo was pretty much individual work. We all knew what we were doing. We were all qualified and they would say well you've got an aircraft out there that needs weapons installation. You didn't have to go ask somebody how to do it, they expected you to know how. So you went on your own but actually to install the weapons on a P-40 it really took two people. Those 50 caliber machine guns were relatively heavy and it needed two people to do the work. They brought some Chinese down - all Chinese armorers and they were officers and I had one assigned to me. He couldn't speak English, I couldn't speak Chinese but we got along real fine and what we had to do was install the wing guns - there were four of them, then we had to install the 50 calibers - there were two of them, then we had to synchronize the machine guns. Now synchronization was a whole art of itself. People think that they're firing through the prop - a machine gun is automatic - it's not. The propeller is turning and in the back of the engine - and the most inaccessible place normally - they have what they call a generator and that generator turns, it turns with the rotation of the propeller. There's a wire that runs from the - called an impulse wire, an impulse tube - runs back to the machine gun and it's tied with what they call a trigger motor and as the prop turns the generator turns, it pulls this wire back and forth and it pushes the sear in and only when that's in position, will that gun fire. The gun appears to fire automatic as the propeller is turning, but it's the propeller that actuates the mechanism that's making the gun fire. Now if you over speed the prop, you're liable to shoot the prop ahead of you, if you under speed the prop, you'll liable to shoot the one that's in, because the synchronize - the point of impact depending on how far behind the propeller the gun is, determines where you fire it. The P-40 was synchronized about an inch and a half from the turning edge of the blade. Theoretically when a gun fired the bullet would go right between the two props. So if you sat down there idling your motor you're gonna shoot your prop, if you speed it up you're gonna get the prop coming up. So you could shoot a prop and we had enough problems with shooting props anyway without goofing that up. FB: We've never gotten any of this. People have talked about shooting through it and in fact Dick Rossi talked about how he actually shot one of his props. We've talked about props being repaired but we've never gotten this kind of detail. If you could continue on then in terms of - you've gotten into the synchronizing of the guns which is good, what condition did these planes come in? You said you had to install the guns on it. I think most people would assume that the airplanes just came in and were ready to go. CB: When the aircraft arrived from Rangoon, [BREAK] CB: When the aircraft, the P-40's arrived from Rangoon to land at Taungoo, they were just made flyable. The radio equipment was installed, the gunsights were installed and the armament was installed. The armament came in crates and we had to take the cosmoline? off them and clean them and we did have Burmese that were working in there and was doing that at the armament shop. All the other stuff was just all accessories were just put on there. Then we had the four wing guns, 30 caliber machine guns that were mounted in the wings, they had to be mounted and most of them we found we had to file the trunion? 4 �mounts in the aircraft itself in order to get them to mount right, because they fit in, they went down to a socket in the back and there were two little lugs below that you had to turn, and they just wouldn't work, so we had to file them. That wasn't really a tough job, you just had to do it. Then when we got all that done, we'd take them out and we'd bore sight them and bore sighting is actually making the weapons shoot where you want them to shoot when they want to shoot, and it's all figured on the angle of attack to the aircraft coming in at a certain speed, what position his nose will be when he makes this attack called the angle of attack. We'd take the aircraft out to the gunnery range, we'd set two jacks up, we'd run a bar through the lifting bar through the back - there was a whole back on the tail - we'd run a bar through there and we'd lift the tail up and we'd back a truck under it. We'd back the truck under it and then we'd take a car jack and then one of the fellows would get in the cockpit and he'd put a bar across the - there were leveling lugs in the cockpit - there was one up here in the left and ones in the back and then there were two across. He set his gunner's quadrant - the gunner's quadrant actually is a level and you set it at mils nose up or mils nose down, you want your aircraft set at. You set that thing up there, then he set the dial onto it and you would jack the tail up until the bubble was centered, then you'd lay the bar across the other way and this had to be level - no mils onto it. Then you'd put two wing jacks under each side and you'd jack one or the other up until the aircraft was level. Then you'd take the gunsight and you'd set your gunsight on the bull. Then you took the machine gun and you could bore sight the machine gun - you could look through it you got the target. Now Chennault had his own system. The left wing guns, your target was 20 foot wide, left wing gun fired at the right target, left inboard gun fired at the target next to it, the right outboard gun fired this way, the right inboard fired that way and your 50 calibers fired right straight. So what you got I don't remember what the range was - 375 yards or what it was - that's called a fire intersected and if you shot at anything there, you got all six guns just going in one spot and it would tear anything apart that was made. Well we fired bursts from the wing guns and then we'd fire a couple of rounds with a screw driver till we got them on the bull, then we'd take the target down and we'd fire a burst, maybe 25-30 rounds from each of the wing guns. We couldn't do that with the 50's. And that [?] how you got them ready. We'd try to have the pilot out there. Now our gunsights, they were terrible because we had to make them. The P-40 had a bullet resistant glass in the front. The ones that were in the States were pre-drilled and you could mount your reflector sight on that. Now what we call a transparent rear. Actually the gunsight itself was set down here below the pilot, down on the floor and it projected an image up to the windscreen and you could see your circle and dot or whatever it was, you could see that. They couldn't mount them, they had no way of drilling those holes, so they had to make a gimmick, which they made, it was curved down and actually it was tied onto the pilot's grab bar - when he pulled himself out of the airplane. Well what kind of grab you could get you pulled the side off. The first one they made was aluminum, they used brass rivets. Well in that weather you got electrolysis and your sight worked loose. We also had a fixed gunsight and I think from what I've talked to the pilots, most of them used the fixed gunsight and most of them didn't do any deflection shooting which is - the airplane is here, so you aim your airplane here and hopefully it will run into it. Most of them didn't do that, most of them would get right as close as they could get and just tear them apart and they would use their 5 �gunsights - the fixed ring [?] gunsight. That's what they told me, I never had a chance to do it myself, so I don't know. 6 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Baisden_Chuck_1991-06-08_v03 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Baisden, Charles Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-06-08 Title A name given to the resource Chuck Baisden interview (video and transcript, 3 of 11), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Chuck Baisden by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Chuck Baisden was an armorer of the AVG 3rd Squadron, "Hell's Angels." He joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in 1941 after signing a covert contract with Continental Aircraft Mfg. Co. He was with the first forces to reach Burma and was stationed at Mingaladon and Magwe, Burma and Loiwing, Mengshi, and Kunming, China. He left the AVG at the expiration of his contract in 1942 and enlisted as a T/Sgt. in the US Army. In this tape, Chuck Baisden describes his reaction to the living conditions and barracks in Taungoo, in addition to his first duties when the aircraft started to arrive there. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8b59c127b369536b62c6acf29dd66f3d.mp4 25f9c28e5ebe4872a1bf3e1e0b87db36 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bb3a5cc5edcfc8ee08582f4b9e6af5e1.pdf 6f30825c5780f768d4a9257be70b0c7e PDF Text Text RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Chuck Baisden Date of interview: June 8, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 4] FB: What we would like to do now is get more into the working relationship that was going on. Now granted you each had your own duties. You were involved in the armaments and you had group that's working and everything, but did you get the impression was it your observation that this was a full working unit? Or was there certain people doing their jobs, certain people that weren't doing their job. What was your observation in terms working relationship of the AVG at this particular time? CB: Well, we start working, we was pretty much on our own. What everybody else, there were people working in the hangers, they had people here they had people there. From what I could see everybody was working. I didn't have any time off. Once in a while we'd take off and go a little bit. Some of the guys seemed to have a little more time than others. Now the pilots seemed to have more time than anybody. That includes R. T. Smith. I read his diary and he has more damn time off then I ever thought. I'll get you R. T. He used to listen to a lot of music I think. But the fellows, we worked together because the crew chiefs and everybody, everybody was working there is no doubt about that. Of course the pilots when they started to fly they had big problems. We had guys flying these PB1 what had been flying patrol boats. They were busting up airplanes and we busted up a few, ground crew had taxi accidents. Guy would fly an airplane in and chew up the tail off of one and that sort of stuff. Guys as a whole were working and like I say, guys knew what they were doing most of them the most part. FB: Let's now address your area, the armaments area. There was you and there was beginning Burmese and eventually the Chinese came in. Is that accurate. CB: Well, let me, the Chinese helped installing the weapons. The Burmese strictly worked in the armor shop cleaning guns, that's all they did. They didn't mess with the flight line at all. They just cleaned guns. We also had Chinese in there cleaning guns. Mainly Chinese. FB: OK, let me stop you just for a second. What we are trying to look for is give us a picture of this area you are talking about. Who did what? What was the process, these get cleaned why do they get cleaned? Were they being taken out of crates? Do you see what I'm saying we need a full picture of what that area looked like and who did what? CB: Well at Taungoo the amour shop well, I guess you could compare it to a garage. It was just a plain old building had a bunch of racks in it where the weapons were stored in the racks Initially there we used to clean the guns to get them ready to put in because the guns were raw grease with [?] And of course when they were fired you had to clean them 1 �every time they come back to the [?] They had to be cleaned. And, of course, we actually used carbon tetrachloride, which has been outlawed for years. It was all we had. We had our problems with keeping them clean. But that's really all the armor shop was used for. Just a place of storage. No munitions were stored in there. The munitions were stored in another place. But all the spare parts the parts that aren't electrical the parts that we had to use was all put in there. If you needed a part that's where you went to get it. FB: What we would like now is in as much detail as possible give us from an insider's view to the outsider what it was like in this armament area. Who did what and what kinds of things were done to prepare these P-40's including the cleaning the constant state of cleaning were the spare parts were, the whole picture. CB: Well, to start talking about what we did in the armor section we had 5 armors in my squadron. Joe Poshefko, P. J. Perry, Clarence Riffer, and myself. We worked together and we worked by ourselves. And also we had some Chinese assigned to us. Now these Chinese were armors, whether or not, they probably hadn't seen a P-40 before, but they did, they were smart, they were Chinese officers they weren't no recruits. They picked up real fast. They are very fast to learn. And they worked with us mainly in installation. Once we got started we didn't see too much of them. They kept them mainly back in the repair section. Woo and Chew, Captain Woo was a ranking Chinese. Well, he and two others had gone to to Taungoo one night and I think they were smashed and came back and one of our fellows cut off his tie. Just cut the thing off and he lost so much face. You just didn't do that to a Chinese captain. He actually later on he didn't mind it, but at the time he did it in front of one of his lieutenants and you just don't do that. When we have a gun remission when they came back of course we'd have to pull, now you didn't have to pull the weapons, the 30 caliber you had to pull out of the aircraft to clean. The 50 calibers you could remove insides from within the aircraft. And that's all we cleaned. But see the ammunition that the service used, the primers are very corrosive, they, and with the salts why they'll start corroding your barrel and they'll start rusting. And particularly with the humidity we had there in two weeks the guns probably wouldn't even work. So we kept them clean. I'm losing track here. FB: How did you communicate with Woo & Chew? You were telling us earlier about FB: I communicated with the Chinese by pointing. Make sure that Woo & Chew CB: The two Chinese officers that worked for me, Capt. Woo and Lt. Chew, Well, I got to backtrack a little bit, Capt. Woo could speak English. And if we had a problem with what we wanted to do he would tell the Chinese. But after we got working a while we got to know pretty much in armor how to say, what to say, and what to do. Of course, I worked with these people until after the war broke out and then we didn't see more of them until we went back to Kunming. We move and they didn't come down go with us after that. FB: How did you communicate with them in the early stages for example? CB: Mainly by pointing. 2 �CB: We mainly communicated with the Chinese by pointing and then later on by pointing to something and saying what it was in English and they would say what it was in Chinese. We had no problems. It wasn't that difficult to do. I didn't have any problems anyway. FB: In terms of the Burmese and the Chinese and then the Americans what was the working relationship there. What the Burmese do, what did the Chinese do, what did you do? CB: When we was working with the mixed groups, the Burmese that we had working, the Chinese that we had working in the armor shop I had nothing to do with. They were under Roy Hoffman would be in there or we had an English Sgt would come in, a little flight Sgt. would come in there and he would sort of keep things moving. The only ones we had much to do with was just these two officers that I was talking about. Other than that why I didn't have much to do with them. Now were around, they had them out there refueling and stuff like, but I didn't have anything to do with them. FB: Do you recall any training scenes now or anything used to communicate with CB: No, the worst come up I would probably remember name. Woo and Chew are the only ones I remember now. FB: No training terms for armaments CB: Oh, well I learned the word for machine gun which is chickwhenchaw. And bullet was a tun. [?] And I think if it was like - if you come quick load the aircraft. Something like that I got all fouled up but it was something like that. And hobble how was how are you? And if he would talk good it was ding how. If you didn't feel good it was boo how. The water was kisway. That's about all I remember. I had a few more but I have no use to use it. FB: What did you observe about the British in this? Was there any interaction with them? CB: We didn't really have too much to do with the British. Now, actually at Taungoo. Let go back track there. We didn't have much to do with them on the field. I went once and got a load of ammunition I had to have British Sgt. or corporal go with me .We got along all right. Went up to Maymo and spent the night in Mandalay and came back and that was it. That was about all I really had to do with the British. Later on we got really involved with them when we went down to Mingladon. But it wasn't actually the British it was New Zealand troops there were British soldiers, but the pilots were New Zealanders. FB: Ok we'll wait til we get to the Mingladon to do that. What was necessary to get the P-40's battle ready? CB: Well, the method we boresighted, making of the gunsights were things we had to do to get them ready to go, but everything all fell into place and that? main provision of course they I know the mechanics had to build stand for lifting engines and they took a truck 3 �they took an old stake body truck and they made winch for it so they could lift the engines off the aircraft, but other than that that's all we had to do the armors. FB: What there's a mention in something I've read about you you said loading equipment does that mean anything? Loading equipment. Something about you had gotten some guns or something like that and you wished you had loading equipment. CB: The machine guns when you get the ammunition come in belts what they call disintegrating link belts. The loading equipment is actually a belt linker is what it is. The belt linker, now you're going to put 300 rounds, or 400 rounds of ammunition and you got loose ammunition. You got a problem because you got to lay each round out in the tray you got to put the belt then you got to pull the lever forward and it's a problem. I forgotten now what would come in a box of ammunition, in a wooden box it comes from munitions place. It think it was 250 rounds for the 50 caliber and I don't remember, but we would have to link them and we had a linking machine which we used, but it's all hand operated no power equipment. And that's what they call and probably what they're referring to when they say loading equipment we call a linking machine. FB: Ok. What was your relationship with the pilots at this time? We're talking about the training period in Taungoo. CB: Ohhhh, my relationship with the pilots was I had a lot of respect for. See when I was stationed at Mitchell Field I was winch operator in a B10. I flew with Parker DuPouy and Bob Brouk, and Pete Atkinson were all pilots I flew with. I was a winch operator we had this old B10 and we'd fly around Fire Island, New York and Langley Field Virginia. We used to fly our tow target for Ft. Monroe and I got to know all these fellows then and most of them was in my squadron I knew. There were some of them I didn't care for, but that was my own personal reaction to some of them. Some of them were a little standoff, but all pilots I knew I had the utmost respect for. FB: In terms of relationship what did you discuss with them did they come out check on the machines. CB: When we was boresighting the pilots would usually come out to their aircraft. They were assigned to. And they would come out there and check and we would try to encourage this because they could see what we was doing. If they come up went up I don't think they were in tow target--air-to-air, but they did have some ground gunnery. I really don't even know where they went because they didn't do it at our place, didn't do it around Taungoo. Most of them got their experience after the war started. In air-to-air firing. FB: What did you hear about or what was your reaction to hearing that somebody got killed in the training. 4 �CB: Well, during our training period previous to this time I'd seen a lot of pilots buy the farm, I mean it was nothing uncommon in fighter pilots in those days for somebody getting killed. When Pete came in on a test stop I heard him go in. Of course I didn't know who it was at the time. And it's a shock, but it's part of the business. You don't want to see nobody get killed, but you just take it that's the way it is. That fellow that was his job and he didn't make it. Some of the fellows, I didn't know some of the fellows, the midair collision Armstrong and Hammer I didn't even know those fellows. And at the time there was quite a few of the pilots I didn't know because they were Navy and so on and so forth. I just didn't get to know them. And there were the other two squadrons. FB: Give us an idea of you know here you are your working on something and then you hear that did you know what it was? CB: When Pete Atkinson crashed although I didn't know who it was in the aircraft at the time we heard the plane when he was coming in and we heard it wind up. And we knew he was over speeding. You could just tell by the way that engine picked up that there was something wrong. Then we heard the crash and the explosion. I don't remember where I was at the time or whether I was working. I might not have been working, but we knew that he never got out of it. Whether his prop over sped, or the engine just disintegrated I don't have any idea I just know that Pete was killed and Pete was one heck of a fine troop, a real easy goin' guy. I probably flown with him then I did anybody else in B10. For some reason he used to get stuck, the fighter pilots didn't care to fly that airplane. It took off at 90, cruised at 130 and landed at about 60. They weren't impressed about having to fly it, but that was the way it was. 5 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Baisden_Chuck_1991-06-08_v04 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Baisden, Charles Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-06-08 Title A name given to the resource Chuck Baisden interview (video and transcript, 4 of 11), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Chuck Baisden by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Chuck Baisden was an armorer of the AVG 3rd Squadron, "Hell's Angels." He joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in 1941 after signing a covert contract with Continental Aircraft Mfg. Co. He was with the first forces to reach Burma and was stationed at Mingaladon and Magwe, Burma and Loiwing, Mengshi, and Kunming, China. He left the AVG at the expiration of his contract in 1942 and enlisted as a T/Sgt. in the US Army. In this tape, Chuck Baisden discusses his observation of the working relationship of the AVG during their training period and the armament area where the P-40 airplanes were prepared. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng