122 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/633c10cea61e405d5bf61bc4dc1cadf8.jpg abbd3679c8ee58e6d0844aae731816d7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ChapmanBill_Photo02 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Chapman, Bill Description An account of the resource Bill Chapman Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College teachers Universities and colleges – Faculty Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e730bd715e0e8c8e3daced8f9a4572c9.jpg 8d85795e527b8448561acedf587bf37a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ChapmanBill_Photo03 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Chapman, Bill Description An account of the resource Bill Chapman Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College teachers Universities and colleges – Faculty Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9b71cf91241e84155cfdfb782e8378ea.mp4 30b65ba472277cdfd11e732112d0df8b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/98c6a143999398ed300841dec5a84600.pdf e8afd9ebade4a04866cb7d8ec5973224 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Dean Chapman World War II Total Time: 1:02:01 Childhood and Pre-Enlistment (0:00:21) • • • • • Born in Lansing, MI 1922. Father was a credit manager Graduated from Michigan State University in 1943. Participated in ROTC while he was in college. Specifically, they trained in Field Artillery during his time in the ROTC, and they also practiced with a pistol. Upon graduation, was taken to Detroit, MI and sworn in as an officer in the Army. Training (0:23:33) • • • • • • Shipped to WI for advanced infantry training. Was then shipped to Fort Sill, OK and trained in the Field Artillery School. Graduated December 10th, 1943. Upon graduation, was given time for leave and was then shipped to Fort Bragg, NC where he waited until he was assigned orders. At this point, he decided to join the 10th Armored Division and reported to Camp Gordon, GA to receive training. Learned the ins and outs of tanks during his tme there. Was trained as a forward observer in the Baker Battalion, 123rd Armored Artillery Battalion of the 10th Armored Division. Was then shipped out for Europe. Active Duty (0:27:45) • • • • • • • Was taken to Camp Shanks, NY and then to Pier 20 in the harbor. He was transported on a captured German ship. This boat, however, ran aground and so they had to disembark the ship. They then got on to another ship and had to catch up with their convoy. (0:31:54) They thought they saw a submarine on their way across, but it was only a piece of driftwood. Their journey on the boat took them four days. They disembarked in Cherbourg, France and were taken on shore on barges pulled by tugboats. Moved into Paris from Cherbourg, and did some work with the French underground. (0:40:27) They captured Metz after heavy fighting �• • • • • (0:41:40) He was in one of the first divisions to see combat in the Battle of the Bulge. Their division was there hours before the 101st Airborne Division showed up at Bastogne. (0:50:08) His division then pushed across Germany to the Rhine River and then ended up in Austria. At the end of the war, he was in Bavaria. (0:52:45) At the end of the war, he stayed in Europe with General Morris. He mostly reported to the General about the activities of the various lower ranking officers. (0:57:15) He returned to the United States in late 1945 and worked for the Pentagon for two weeks to earn his one point so that he could go home. Post-War (0:59:45) • • He went back to college upon exiting the Army, and worked for a Farmers Co-op, where he broke his leg. He wrote a book about his experiences in the war. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Chapman, Dean (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Chapman, Dean Description An account of the resource Dean Chapman was born in Lansing, Michigan in 1922, and served in the Army in World War II. He was in the ROTC in college at Michigan State, and joined the Army shortly after graduating. He worked as a forward observer for the 123rd Battalion of the 10th Armored Division. He was involved in several different campaigns in Europe, serving in the Battle of the Bulge, and in Germany and Austria. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McCauslin, Kelly (Interviewer) Spring Lake District Library (Spring Lake, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-04-26 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ChapmanD Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7b631b6e08ba9208215af8d1ea82f47e.mp4 dd548a8444302c0b71a88b16b4ee85a8 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d4769364600e9bb4527715b57b921b64.pdf 4e6a113b5342f9332bbcf4122c0be7ba PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Rod Chapman Korean War Total Time: 39:18 Childhood and Pre-Enlistment (00:00) • • • • Born in Connecticut in 1930 Father worked a number of different jobs before they moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan for a job. Had a number of family members in the service during World War II. Did not finish high school and worked a number of jobs before he was drafted in 1951. Training (03:30) • • • Took a train to Fort Sheridan, Illinois, and then to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri where he took basic training and engineer training. Placed a lot of emphasis on Army discipline. (08:14) Learned a number of different tasks in Engineering Training, one of which was building bridges and roads. Active Duty (08:35) • • • • • • • • • • Was shipped to Chicago, then to Fort Lawton where he boarded a ship to Yokohama, Japan. They were shipped over on a marine phoenix ship. The ship was very crowded. (10:25) He attended cook school in Japan for 8 weeks. He learned to cook and use the stoves. (11:05) After this training, he was shipped to Pusan, Korea and then to the Kapyan, where he was attached to the 32nd Infantry Regiment of the 7th Division. He ended up as a rifleman however, and not as a cook. His unit was on Heartbreak Ridge when he joined them. He also remembers his unit not having any real problems with race during his time with them, although there were black soldiers in the unit. (14:10) The line was quiet when he got to the hill. They were eventually pulled off the line and taken for more training. They were subsequently assigned to Henry Hill, which he remembers quite vividly. They were on that specific hill for 6 weeks. For the most part, they were sitting around and watching the Chinese across the ridge. (16:50) They would sometimes participate in a patrol which would try to detect any Chinese movement or penetration. There were around 160 men in his company. �• • • • • • • • (20:07) They were then pulled off the line into a blocking position. After some time in the blocking position, they were moved to the front again as a replacement for another unit. In September, many of the men were up for rotation. (22:02) His company was on Pikes Peak during Triangle. There were many caves that the enemy occupied, making it difficult to make movements. He was hit by artillery, and went to an aid station for this injury. The objective was to take the hill, which took 14 days. They attacked during all hours of the day. The Americans would attack and the Chinese would counterattack, which is why taking the hill took so long. (26:40) They had to carry many of the wounded off the hill by litter, which could be very difficult at times. (29:44) After Triangle Hill, their company had only 66 men left, and they were brought off the line. After this point, he left to go home via Inchon and Tokyo by boat. He landed in Seattle after 15 days crossing the ocean. He was then put on a bus to the airstrip where they were put on a substandard plane for Battle Creek, Michigan. (32:50) They were on leave at Fort Custer, Michigan for 30 days. (33:30) He was Supply Sergeant at Fort Custer for 2 weeks. He was then sent to Colorado Springs, CO for 4 months where he worked as a Supply Sergeant before he was discharged. Post-Service (35:10) • • Worked for RC Allen when he returned home. Also worked for General Motors. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Chapman, Rod (Interview outline and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Chapman, Rod Description An account of the resource Rod Chapman was drafted into the US Army in 1951. After training as an engineer at bases in the US and as a cook in Japan, he was assigned to the 7th Division as a rifleman, where he was stationed first in the Heartbreak Ridge sector and then in the Triangle Hill sector. In the fighting at Triangle Hill, his unit suffered heavy casualties and was eventually rotated out of the line, and he was sent home shortly afterward in 1953. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-06-11 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ChapmanR Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1583a0eca9612a762b059645958717f7.jpg 1bb1333509e2414753df19ca6d0b7131 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ChappellRick Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Chappell, Rick Description An account of the resource Rick Chappell, visiting speaker, Professor of Physics, Vanderbilt University Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College teachers Universities and colleges – Faculty Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1d8f75cf8ab733d785912759c523f5d4.mp4 625f788b78a20096e9a1dcf7b5cd407d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/91ea873b36dc9bf7ae580621a28d6de3.pdf d2d2d0a439fadc6d1c5c34d7341c58e0 PDF Text Text Chardoul, Paul Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Vietnam War Interviewee’s Name: Paul Chardoul Length of Interview: (2:33:24) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Paul Chardoul of Grand Rapids, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State Veterans History Project. Okay Paul begin with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and when were you born?” I was born in Waterloo, Iowa on August 17th, 1939. Interviewer: “Alright, did you grow up in Iowa or did you move around?” (00:53) Lived there until I was 11 years old and then moved to Flint. Interviewer: “Okay, and what was your family doing for a living when you were a kid?” My dad was a realtor in Iowa and when we moved to Flint he set up another realty firm in Flint. Interviewer: “Okay, and– So you finished high school in Flint?” Flint Central, right. Interviewer: “Okay and what year did you graduate?” 1957. �Chardoul, Paul Interviewer: “Okay, and then what did you do after you got out of high school?” Went to college, University of Michigan, got a bachelor’s in history and then worked– I wanted to work under a particular person at Michigan State so I got my masters in 19th century American military history, graduating from that in ‘64 the same year that I left for active duty. Interviewer: “Alright, so how did you wind up in the Navy?” When I was writing my master's thesis I had to cut down the number of hours as you can well imagine and 60’s was a prime time to be drafted, so I joined the naval reserves as a seaman recruit, and this was in Lansing, and I was there for six months. Took the officer battery test, scored well on it, and went off to officer candidate school. Interviewer: “Alright, so basically you were in a situation where you figured you were eligible to get drafted and the draft was ramping up, because it got steadily increased in the early 60s it wasn’t as bad as it was going to get during Vietnam because Vietnam hadn’t officially heated up yet but it was starting. Okay, so you just got a step ahead of things and then why did you decide to become an officer?” (3:06) I didn’t like the thought of being enlisted for two years and even though there was a three year commitment for officers I said “I think that’s a better choice.” With my background I thought I could do something for the Navy as well. Interviewer: “Okay so you hope that they might be able to use your particular skill set, military history and so forth.” Exactly. Interviewer: “Okay, alright so now while you were still in that first six months while you’re enlisted what did your Navy duties consist of or what kind of training did you get?” �Chardoul, Paul You mean as a seaman recruit? Interviewer: “Yeah.” It was just once a week training at the naval reserve center which was marginally good, didn’t learn very much, learned how to wear a uniform and that was really about it. Interviewer: “Alright, and so from there it’s on to the officer candidate school?” (4:13) Correct. Interviewer: “Alright and so when were you there?” I was there from early February 1964 until June of ‘64, this is in Newport, Rhode Island. Interviewer: “Alright, so what did that training course consist of?” 18 weeks of combination of academic and military training, the academic included such things as operations, engineering, basic thermodynamics, some nuclear information, navigation, and you know just learning how to be an officer. Interviewer: “Okay and what kind of mix of people were in your class?” There were 12 companies, each one with about 30 males, because I got there the first day I was in Alpha Company, the first one, and the barracks were temporary barracks from World War II, horrible conditions. As a matter of fact in March the back end of the barracks fell off, and that’s where all the showers and that was so we had to go to the next building over to take a shower and drive in a snowstorm, not fun but the training was fantastic. It really was and I was able to learn an awful lot about the Navy that I didn’t realize that was part of it. The very first night I got there I was in a coat and tie and they had us scrubbing the deck, I took my jacket off, wrapped my tie around my neck so it wouldn’t get in the way. I’m on the deck scrubbing and then they �Chardoul, Paul ran us off to dinner, I thought we’d get candlelight dinners, nuh-uh we had 15 minutes to run to the mess hall, eat, and get back and some of the guys were getting a little sick on the way back. It was kind of a greasy meal, but it was kind of an introduction to things might not be as sophisticated as you think they are. Interviewer: “I guess you might have seen in movies or something, officer and officer’s mess and all wearing their white uniforms and the stewards coming and serving them, yeah.” That’s right. Interviewer: “Well not quite, maybe at the Naval Academy you get that but anyway, not officer candidate school. Okay, and then while you’re there at officer candidate school or when you’re signing up for that, did you get to request any kind of more specialized training or types of duty?” (7:10) Yeah, you fill out what they call a dream sheet, and of course everyone wanted destroyers, I said “I wanna be a communications officer.” And so after I got my commission I spent another two months in Newport at the officers communications school and that was– It was very rewarding because it taught us an awful lot, and one of the things they taught us was if you screw up you’re going to Fort Leavenworth and so, you know keep your nose to the grindstone and because I’m a person who believes in detail it made it a little easier. Interviewer: “Alright, now explain for people who don’t know, what does it mean if they’re threatening you with Fort Leavenworth?” Oh, it’s a federal prison. Interviewer: “Right, it’s military prison, yeah and so that would be– What kind of mistake would get you sent to prison?” �Chardoul, Paul Dealing with classified material and losing stuff because I also got my first ship, which was an ammunition ship, and because we carried special weapons almost everything we did was classified, at least secret, and some of the stuff was higher than that. So I took over as top secret control officer, and classified material control officer, and crypto security officer besides being communications officer and assistant operations officer. So it was a full time job and then some. Interviewer: “Alright, so what was that first assignment, what ship did you go to?” That was on the U.S.S Diamond Head. Interviewer: “Can you explain what kind of ship that was?” Yeah, it was an ammunition ship, all ammunition ships are named after volcanoes for obvious reasons, and we learned very early on that if that ship blew up it would basically create a big hole in the Atlantic ocean. We carried more firepower than what was expended in World War II on one ship. Interviewer: “Alright, and where were you based?” (9:36) In Norfolk, Virginia, but we were seldom there we were out at sea, of the 18 months I was on board probably out at sea 15 of the 18 months. Interviewer: “Okay, and about how big was the ship?” It was about 30,000 tons. Interviewer: “Okay so in terms of its length and–” About 470 feet long. Interviewer: “So essentially a large freighter?” �Chardoul, Paul Essentially yeah it was– Actually I was doing a zone inspection and I found a little panel down in one of the recesses that had been built in 1937, and they claim it had been built in 1941 but it was older than they thought, I think it was reconditioned. Interviewer: “Alright, and so what kind of reception do you get when you first arrive at the ship, what are your first few days like?” Well the first thing you do is you sign in when you board the ship and of course you learn to salute the ensign at the back of the ship, and discern the ship, and request permission coming aboard, and you have your orders with you, and I was taken to the officer of the deck who gave me the address of the commanding officer and said “Please contact the commanding officer.” This is at his home, so I actually waited until the next day because it was on a Sunday I knew he’d be in the next day. He came in and I came in and talked to him, he was a full captain and was an individual who was really quite an innovator and we didn’t– He’d been a former communicator too so he was kind of watching me pretty carefully and he said “We’re gonna make this ship the best ship on the Atlantic fleet.” And I said “Okay sounds good to me.” You know, so we had a very interesting conversation for about 15 minutes and then he pushed me out and I went right to work. (12:07) I had an on site relief from the preceding command– Or communications officer, and that lasted about two days. Interviewer: “So that means basically he’s showing you what to do in those two days?” Yeah, and of course without getting into some of the classified material, there was an awful lot of inventory we had to do and that was primarily what we did, and then do a nice burn and make out the burn report and all that. It’s really very cut and dry but very complex. Interviewer: “Okay when you say– When you refer to a burn what do you mean by that?” You have to physically burn documents and anything– Let’s leave that one off. �Chardoul, Paul Interviewer: “Okay, alright but the kind of thing that could happen if there was some risk of the ship being lost–” Like the Pueblo. Interviewer: “Yeah, that sort of thing.” I’ve talked to a couple officers in the Pueblo and– Interviewer: “Yeah, okay. Alright but that’s the nature of what you’ve got and the secret nature of the material, okay. How long was it before you went out to sea?” (13:27) About a week and a half, I did a NATO cruise into the north Atlantic. I experienced my first hurricane, yeah it did a lot of damage to the ship. We were working with an aircraft carrier and– You know what a sponson is on a carrier? Interviewer: “You should describe that for the audience.” It’s this thing that hangs off the side of the carrier, it was about 55 feet above the water, it was twisted 90 degrees by a wave, so you can imagine the kinds of waves we were experiencing. We were up north of the arctic circle, north of Iceland, and I was surprised to find even though– Not only was exercise, as in NATO exercise, classified secret but even the title of the exercise was classified secret, and so we got to a point where we were rearming the U.S.S Independence and the U.S.S Enterprise, the nuclear carrier, and it was in a place called Point Snow which was just a little dot in the middle of the ocean, way up in this Norwegian sea and there’s a Russian trawler waiting for us and at one point on the primary tactical circuit I’m up on the bridge because I was also the officer of the desk for all rearmings, “Ensign Chardoul, do you realize your parents were killed in an auto accident last week?” Now I’ve been out at sea for about two weeks, I’m shaking, and I look at the commanding officer and he just shook his head and said “I don’t know.” And what they were doing is they were picking up garbage out of the water and they found some material and you know some documents whatever and were able to piece together a �Chardoul, Paul lot of what we were doing and after the exercise was over, it lasted about two and a half weeks– Oh, while we were up there our radar mast got blown off, it landed on the main deck and one of my other collateral duties was electronics material officer. So I had to climb up the radar mast to see how much damage had been done to the coupler and all that, and I’d left permanent fingerprints in that steel. I mean I’m not a good climber cause water, ship, water, ship, water– I mean we were really rocking quite a bit. So we went down to the bay at Biscayne where it was fairly quiet and we were able to from there go into a small port and they were able to put a derrick up and put the mast– Or the radar back on, but after the exercise was over we went to Portsmouth, England and all the communicators were called into a room and we were read the riot act for, you know, for all kinds of computer violations, getting information that shouldn’t be eliminated because the intelligence people were able to basically rewrite the entire operation order based on what they’re listening to. So it’s, you know, that’s when you really become very conscious of how important security is. Interviewer: “Did you call home?” (17:40) No. Interviewer: “Okay so you didn’t think your parents were killed in an auto accident?” Oh I checked by other means but, we had no way of calling. Interviewer: “Alright so the Russians were just messing with you.” Yeah. Interviewer: “They found your name someplace and decided to use it, okay. Alright, so about how many cruises did you do with that ship or when you’re out at sea how long would you be out?” �Chardoul, Paul We did– Most of our cruises were, you know, just rearming out for a week and back in for a day, out for a week, back in for a day. A couple down into the Caribbean for a month, and then we did seven months in the Mediterranean. Interviewer: “Okay, so talk a little bit about the Med cruise then, what was that like?” Well, because we did carry special weapons and there were two ammunition ships in the Med at all times I was designated as the nuclear release officer for about 45 ships and we got these high priority messages that had to be responded to in a certain format and had– You know we timed it from the time that the message was sent to the time we responded. I was doing it for the 40-some ships of the service force, there were– There’s one on the carrier, one on the cruiser, destroyers, and one in the Naples and we basically had it and– So the four of us did communicate to make sure that, you know, we always sent the messages correct, and it was somewhat traumatic. (19:53) I wanted to see the world, that’s part of the reason I joined the Navy. I never got off the ship because I had to be on board because sometimes we’d get three test messages a day, sometimes you go a week without one and if you– It comes in as a flash message which means you transmit it as fast as humanly possible and so I couldn’t leave the ship. I had an assistant com officer but he wasn’t very good, I couldn’t trust him. Interviewer: “Okay, about how many officers were on a ship like that?” We had about 25-24-25 officers. Interviewer: “Okay, but you still had a lot of hats to wear and you had a bunch of different duties?” Oh yeah. Interviewer: “Alright, and what places did you go to?” In the Med? �Chardoul, Paul Interviewer: “Yeah.” Our first stop was in Rota, Spain and then from there went to Marseille, Naples, made one stop in North Africa to pick up some World War II unexploded bombs, for a little– You know sitting out in the desert for 20 some years they were a little dangerous, they were handled very gingerly, and let’s see, we did Naples a few times. Where else? Genoa, Barcelona. Interviewer: “Okay, so you’re mostly in kind of the western half of the Mediterranean rather than out towards Greece or some place like that.” Yeah we were supposed to go to Greece but there was a riot so they canceled that, and I’m Greek so yeah I was kind of looking forward to it. I had contacted relatives and I couldn’t give them specific dates because our movement was classified but I said “I’m gonna be there sometime in the next month.” And that got canceled so we stayed out at sea for 25 days and that was not fun. (22:15) There’s not much to do on an ammunition ship, unlike a carrier where they’ve got gyms, and you know weight rooms, and everything else and you can run on the flight deck. Interviewer: “Did you have movies or things like that, did they do that?” Our movie officer was totally incompetent and he would mess it up and he would always get the wrong movies, and his boss the chief engineer, all he wanted to see was Randolph Scott movies. Have you ever seen a Randolph Scott movie? Interviewer: “I’ve seen Randolph Scott in various things.” Oh they’re terrible. He gave away some fantastic movies to get Randolph Scott movies and often he’d be the only one in the wardroom watching because the commanding officer would send his steward down and basically clear everybody else out. “I want this report on my desk by tomorrow morning.” You know, whatever and the junior officer always had to make popcorn and luckily I was not junior officer for very long but– And I’m not in the wardroom anyways so– �Chardoul, Paul That was– There wasn’t an awful lot to do for entertainment, you know you’re always thinking of things you can do to improve what you’re doing, plus going through enlisted service records, counseling the people under you because a lot of them are 18-19 years old and never been away from home and you become their father, and you better know something about them. Interviewer: “Okay, about how many enlisted men were working for you?” About 22. Interviewer: “Okay, and so most of them were the younger ones?” Yeah, non-rated I had one– Two chiefs, two E6s, three E5s, and the rest were E4 or non-rated. Interviewer: “Alright now are there– Think about the time you spent on the ammunition ship. Are there other particular memories or things that stand out for you?” (24:50) While I was on it? Interviewer: “Yeah.” Well when we were coming back from the Med we extended for a month because our replacement A.D was having problems in Mayport, Florida. So we extended a month and that kind of messed things up, but as a communications officer I saw a message saying that our ship was going to go in the shipyard right after we got back for an electronics overhaul and as electronics material officer I’d be the one who’d be stuck in the shipyard dealing with yard birds and everybody else would be on liberty and I had gone seven months without liberty and I said “I don’t think I want to do that.” And about two days later another message came through saying they’re looking for young officers to man reconditioned LSTs to go to Vietnam, and I said “Okay, I’ll do that.” I wasn’t married so I thought that’d be a nice change. �Chardoul, Paul Interviewer: “Okay, so if you had wanted to, would you just have stayed with the ammunition ship your whole time?” I could’ve, yes. Interviewer: “So they weren’t making people– They weren’t necessarily moving officers around, at least routinely.” Well normally for junior officers the normal tour is 18 months to two years and I’m just coming up on 18 months and I figured, you know it’s time to move on. There’s something– You know, you burn out and it’s called homesteading too, you get too involved in the same thing and you become single faceted and you’re not really developing as an officer. Interviewer: “Okay, alright now during this time while you were on the Diamond Head, that’s when things really started to heat up in Vietnam because you had the Tonkin gulf incident late in ‘64 and then in ‘65 were sending ground troops in and now we’re kind of getting into ‘66 and so a lot of stuff is happening. Now were you able to follow that news or did you pay much attention to it while you were on the Diamond Head?” (27:18) Just peripherally, I knew it was going on and I had seen the movie Green Berets and I was like “Oh yeah that sounds like fun.” You know, and my brother is an MD and he was ordered to volunteer for the draft in ‘62 and so he was in Texas and he landed up in Korea as the regimental surgeon for the 1st Cavalry Division or one of the regiments for the 1st Cav and he’s right up on the DMZ and he kept saying “Oh I wish I could go to Vietnam.” And I was like “Well okay I’ll be your alter ego, I’ll go.” So I went. Interviewer: “Alright, so you– What ship then do you transfer to?” Well we got back, as I said, in late December– Interviewer: “1965?” �Chardoul, Paul ‘65 yeah, and I got orders to the U.S.S Chesterfield County, which is an LST. LSTs are the ones with the bow doors that open up and the bow ramp comes down and it goes right up on the beach, and they’re small, they’re 3200 tons, totally flat bottomed without even a hint of a keel which means they’re going to roll a lot, and this ship was part of a reserves LST squadron that had just been taken off reserve status and made regular status. They had spent a few days down in Santo Domingo, at that time there was four officers and 25 enlisted and when I came on board I was the fifth officer and then we augmented to 11 officers and 104 enlisted. So a lot of us training the new people. Interviewer: “Okay, well– And so where were you based?” Little Creek, Virginia which is right near Norfolk. Interviewer: “And that’s an area where, going back to World War II, they practiced amphibious landings and they did training and all of that so that’s the place for the LSTs. Okay, how long did you spend there?” (30:15) In Little Creek? About a month, and it basically was learning how to drive a different kind of a ship because the ammunition ship was a single screw ship, that didn’t maneuver real well and was big, the LST was two screws, fairly large screws, sitting behind two blade rudders but the engines were 800 horsepower diesel engines, two of them. So our maximum speed was about eight and a half knots but no smoke. Interviewer: “Okay, so now you talk about getting up to a crew of over a 100, would those– Did you keep that larger complement when you finally went out to sea?” Yeah. Interviewer: “So what did you need that many men for?” �Chardoul, Paul Basically moving supplies, because I was the fifth officer XO called me into his office and he said “I’ve got this stack of records for enlisted people, can you help me distribute them?” I said “Sure, why not.” So we went through the records and this guy goes to engineering, this guy goes to supply, you know and so forth, and he says “Oh I got somebody for ship’s office!” That he was responsible for, and I said “Can I see it?” And he showed it to me and he had a master’s degree from Caltech, and he had a ham license, and I said “I think I’d like him as one of my communications people.” and he said “No, I need him in ship’s office.” and I said “He can’t type.” And so I said “Here’s a guy who has a bachelor’s degree from University of Miami in Florida, you can have him.” And he said “Okay.” Now both the XO and I were lieutenant junior grades and he was– You know I was second from the bottom in terms of seniority– Eventually but, you know we were friends and so I took this guy on, and he was a seaman, he just graduated from basic training and we had just installed a transceiver, a small totally solid state receiver transmitter as an experiment from Collins Radio and we were going to test this thing out and he took one look at it and saw what it could do– He also had a speed key he could send many words a minute, and he said– He went up and checked he antennas and he said “Nuh-uh, all wrong.” I said “Well we’ve got a 26 foot whip end antenna for this.” He says “No, no we need a long wire.” “So how are we gonna do it?” And he said “Let’s go to the store.” (33:40) So we went to– It was either radio shack or something like that– Bought a long wire, I paid for it, and he designed the coupler, hooked it up to the transceiver, we could communicate with the world because this thing— You know that long wire we just turned it sideways and it gave us this horrendous capacity to send message traffic. When we were off in Vietnam we were sending, not to Guam, not to Saigon, but to Rota, Spain and Greece and before you communicate in the Navy with morse code you said what’s called a nondescript thing it’s N followed by one letter and he’s send N T and they’d say “Go ahead John, send your message.” They knew who he was just from that and he was i mean really– He really– And because he had the ham license I converted it to a mobile marine license so that guys could call home. Interviewer: “Alright, so you’re getting the ship ready to go, you’re signing the crew and all this kind of thing, so now going to just move us forwards here. Once you’ve got your ship’s complement, what do you do next? Where do you go, what happens?” �Chardoul, Paul Took it out and just did some maneuvering in the Virginia Capes operating area, just a little bit, went up to Newport to load a new radar on. They took the radar I had on the bridge off, it had been put up there illegally, and put a new one on that died about three weeks later so it became a seat for the junior officer of the deck, a $25,000 seat. It never really worked well after that even though my electronics technicians tried to keep it up they couldn’t do it, it just didn’t work well. It was a short yard period, they installed a huge bladder at the back end of the tank deck, LSTs have what’s called a tank deck where literally tanks can sit down there and because they filled this thing with water. First heavy ship– Or sea we got the thing twisted and it dropped down, broke, that was it no more water, luckily nobody got hurt. We had a chance to– The officers– To train in a basin with radio controlled model ships, they’re about this long and I got a chance to be able to twist that LST around. It was really quite interesting because the thing– When you go on the beach you turn sideways. Here’s the beach, and you come at it but before you start to move it forwards you drop your anchor, your stern anchor, right up on the beach. Sometimes at full speed, eight and a half knots, grind up on the beach, open the bow doors, drop the bow ramp and then stuff can theoretically go off dry. (37:36) Doesn’t always work that way but that’s the idea, and then when you’re retracting you just bring that stern anchor in and you pull yourself off onto your own anchor. It doesn’t always work because sometimes when you’re on the beach if you’re off loading cargo you’re getting lighter, which means you’re either gonna float off– You keep your engines running and you keep working your way forward, and when you’re doing that sometimes you’re creating vacuums underneath the ship and it creates a suction that even with the stern anchor and those two 800 horse diesels you can’t get off, and they have to use small tugs to pull you off and all that, and we did that once under fire which wasn’t fun. Interviewer: “Alright, but you were getting to practice this with models first?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and so when do– So eventually you’re going to go to Vietnam, but there are sort of stages in the process along the way. So kind of take us through that.” �Chardoul, Paul Yeah we left on the 11th of February. There were four of us that were gonna go off together and February is– Well remember the fog we had yesterday morning? Multiply that by ten, you couldn’t see 20 feet and somebody– The pilot came on board and went to light off the engines, I mean unlike the ammunition ships that had boilers you had to set up hours in advance, these you pushed a button that started the engine. Well the port engine worked but the starboard engine wouldn’t, they tried they couldn’t get the thing going. So the pilot said “I’m going down to the end of the pier I’m gonna drink coffee.” So he went down to the end of the pier and we’re sitting there and the engine people are trying to get that thing going, and I was on the quarter deck. A car pulled up, a big black car with a flag on the fender with three stars on it. “Hmmm, I wonder what that is.” The driver got out he was a 1st Class yeoman and he started walking up the quarter deck, and I said “Salute the ensign.” So he saluted the ensign, I said “Alright now you may approach.” And he said “Give this note to your commanding officer.” I said “Okay.” And he turned and walked off and so I looked at the car and I could see someone with epaulets on and whoa the admiral’s there. (40:25) So of course I read it on the way up to the commanding officer’s cabin, who by the way was only a lieutenant, and it said “Get your ship out of my harbor, Vice Admiral Duncan.” So I said “Here Skipper.” “Oh!” He went crazy. “Get the pilot!” So I ran down the pier and brought the pilot back and still hadn’t gotten the engine going. So we got underway on one engine. Interviewer: “So how long did it take to actually fix the engine?” A few days. So we’re going along past the coast of North Carolina– Now we’re down to about five knots– Coast of North Carolina, I was doing coastal piloting at night– At the mid watch, we’re going backwards. So I turned the ship 0-9-0 and headed out to sea, called up the skipper on the phone and I said “Skipper I’ve changed course to 0-9-0 going due east because we’re stuck in the gulf stream.” He said “Well what are you gonna do?” I said “When we’re past the gulf stream I’m gonna turn south again.” He said “How can you tell?” I said “I’m taking soundings.” “What do you mean?” I said “I’m measuring the water temperature when the water temperature gets cold, in February, I’m gonna turn south.” And I thought “This guy’s an academy grad, he couldn’t figure that out?” You know? So anyway, we did it and so the other three ships took off. Our first stop was in North Carolina where they loaded a landing craft utility, which is about a 40 �Chardoul, Paul ton boat, on the fore deck. Built this cradle, wooden cradle to set it in, and then we went onto Guantanamo Bay and there we ran into the three other LSTs and we did some training and had some other mechanical issues and finally got underway, and went from there to the Panama Canal and these ships are small enough that you could put two of them side by side, and back to back. Going through the Panama Canal which is an all day venture for us– By the way, going through the Panama Canal and crossing the sill of a dry dock are the only two times where the commanding officer of a Navy ship relinquished command of the ship, and there’s a special entry that you put into the deck log, you know captain, pilot, so on so forth has taken command of the ship from, you know. So luckily I was on the bridge both of those occasions, it’s an interesting observation, but again it was an all day venture through the locks, the two sets of locks, Gatun Lake and so forth to get to the Pacific. Of course then we broke down again so we stuck in Panama City for another three days and eventually we got underway. Steaming across the Pacific to Hawaii, and again slow ships and be steaming along we decided to do some, what you call tic-tacs, maneuvers, you know side by side, four and a half, you know those other things and one ship would be sending a message “I am losing power.” And they just stopped and we’d just circle around figure out what the problem was and– “Okay we got this extra part, you can have this.” (44:40) Because before you get underway they have what’s called an allowance parts list and you know spare parts for things that normally break down over a period of time, and our APL was never up to date, nor were any others, because most of our priorities were 13, 15, or 17. Whereas submarines, carriers, priority one, so we were at the hind end of that long supply train. Think of all those ships off the west coast today, yeah that’s– In any event, so then the four of us would along then somebody else would break down and you know do the same thing. So it took us 24 days to get to Hawaii. Interviewer: “What was the weather like on that trip?” It wasn’t bad, it really wasn’t bad and got to Hawaii and spent some time there. I had some classified material– I tried to, we didn’t have an incinerator on board ship like we did on the ammunition ship so I found a 55 gallon drum and I had it cut in half and put it on the fan tail. It didn’t burn very well, very slow and I wasn’t happy with the results so I put everything in burn bags and we got to Hawaii and one of the first things I did was burn. One of my collateral duties �Chardoul, Paul on that ship was postal officer and they said “Set up a post office.” Where? Well the wing walls of the tank deck is below the main deck and each side is wing walls which are about, oh maybe, 12 feet wide each side. By the way if you wanna see and LST there’s one in Muskegon. Interviewer: “Yeah Muskegon right?” You’ve seen it? Okay. So ours was just a little bit newer than that but not much, but essentially the same, and so they allocated a space for a post office and I had some like chicken wire put up. I had one of the ship fitters weld into a cage, and we used that. I had a postal clerk who was a friend of the yeoman, they both had degrees from the University of Miami– Or Miami University in Florida, not the one in Ohio, and he was my postal clerk and– But I needed a safe, so I took him to salvage in Pearl Harbor and we found a really nice safe. It was about this big, perfect safe except for in the back there’s a hole, this big perfect hole. So I found a towel, draped it over it, had him load it on a truck, brought it to the ship, had the shipfitter weld it up against the– The only people who knew there was a hole there were the shipfitter, my postal clerk, and me. If somebody could go to the other side they would just– Basically punch their fist through and get into the safe, but it worked. Everything was jury rigged on that ship. (48:32) Haircuts, we had a person who came on board ship as a barber, as we’re going through his records looked at it I said, “I don’t– XO I don’t think this guy would be a good barber.” He says “Why not?” “Well he cut somebody with a razor.” So he became the ship’s laundry man and another guy volunteered to be the barber who had never done it before, but we figured we’re out at sea nobody’s– You know good experimentation time, like going to barber college and the space– A stool about this high, you sat at the stool and the “barber” was on his hands and knees with his little razor cutting and of course the ships rolling you– Get a bald spot but you know nobody cared, and so that was our barber shop. I mean, it wasn’t very sophisticated, let's put it that way. We got to Hawaii and did some exercises there, one of the things we did was called causeway marriages. On the side of the LST there’s a panel about this wide, it sticks out and like a little lip and it runs almost the full length of both sides and you put causeways on there. If you can’t get your ship all the way you can drop those causeways and then marry them when you drop your bow ramp to a bullnose on the top of the bow ramp and you can basically build a bridge, and so we were doing that in what’s called West Loch. Pearl Harbor has several like bays and West Loch is the furthest one to �Chardoul, Paul the west, and then there’s Mid Loch where most the activity occurs and then East Loch where the shipyards are and– So this is in West Loch and four of the officers were experimenting, making landings on this causeway, and it was my turn and I did– I got right on there and hit the bull nose right perfect, put it on, tried to back off, both engines died couldn’t get them started. We’re sitting there trying to figure out how to get this thing going, finally they brought a tug and they hauled us across Pearl Harbor backwards to the shipyard and I’m on the bridge and Skipper’s there and I say “Hey Skipper, look over there.” And you can see the balcony of Pacific Fleet Headquarters, saw all this brass up there, and he ducked down below the combing because he didn’t want to be seen and when I was– After my tour and I was at CINCPAC Fleet, at Pacific Fleet Headquarters, I was talking with the vice admiral and– Because we got to know each other fairly well and I said “Do you remember that?” And he said “Were you on that ship?” We saw that and we said “Oh my God!” Because these 11 LSTs of this former reserve squadron when they became part of the Pacific fleet they more than doubled the casualty reports for the entire Pacific fleet, they were in that bad shape. Interviewer: “Okay casualty reports as in ship damage as opposed to people.” (52:20) Anything, anything that goes wrong. You can try to fix it yourself but if you submit a casualty report it usually increases your priority of getting a spare part if you can do it yourself, or it might require some yard maintenance to have somebody else, some professionals, come in and do the work and our commanding officer did not want casualty reports because he said “That puts me on report.” Well if the alternative is not being able to function you do it, yeah. Interviewer: “Alright, okay so you’ve made it now as far as Pearl Harbor, so now when do you leave Pearl Harbor?” We were there for about two weeks and then our next stop was the Philippines, Subic Bay and so that was a long slow haul. Another 26 days to get to the Philippines and we spent about four days in the Philippines. �Chardoul, Paul Interviewer: “Okay, we’ve got a chronology here that says 26th of March leave Pearl Harbor, 25th of April arrive Subic Bay and then 8th of May depart Subic?” Was that long? Okay, yeah I guess we were there longer than I thought– Oh that’s right we were doing some training there and trying to figure out just what our job was. Very very quickly these 11 LSTs were brought over to augment the run up from about 175,000 troops to about 350,000 and eventually it would be 500 plus thousand, and as you well know the supply train is very good. The American soldier is the best equipped, best fed soldier in the world and he requires a lot of equipment. It’s not just food, it’s computers, and toiletries, and ammunition and all that and it’s really quite extensive and that was going to be our job. So we basically became a supply ship. Interviewer: “Alright, now you’re at these places, you’re at Pearl Harbor, you’re at Subic Bay and so forth do the crew get to go– Do they get to go ashore?” (55:05) Yeah Subic Bay is the armpit of the world. I went ashore once– You cross a canal on a bridge, you look down the canal and you see all the detritus of the world in there. Dead animals and, you know just garbage and excrement, I mean it just stunk and we got to the other side– I didn’t enjoy it at all. So back in the ship every time someone said “Man this is great!” “Well how about let’s trade for Japan.” He said “What?” I said “You can have my day of liberty here in Subic and I’ll take two days of your liberty in Japan.” He says “Oh great!” I knew what I was going to expect in Japan, I was very much looking forward to that. So I did go ashore one other time with the commanding officer to get my computer stuff that I needed and we tied in with what’s called CMSTSE commander military sea transportation service southeast Asia and that’s– Their headquarters were in Subic. Interviewer: “I think my understanding is that Subic Bay was largely drinking and women.” Yeah �Chardoul, Paul Interviewer: “Yeah very much and if you were not pursuing a lot of that then there wasn’t much else to do. Okay, so you kind of go through that process, now when you leave Subic Bay are you now carrying a load of cargo with you?” Yeah we had– They also took off that LCU off the foredeck and somewhere, whether it was in Guantanamo Bay or Panama or Hawaii, the wooden cradle got infected with termites. So when they took off the cradle or the LCU, they had a big 50 ton crane lift it off, they had to break the cradle and these termites were everywhere– Flying everywhere and I mean you couldn’t avoid them. I mean they’re just everywhere and you basically shovel them you couldn’t believe how many there were and of course we had our problems with cockroaches too as all ships. You’re standing a watch, let’s say the mid watch, and messenger wakes you up about 11:30, you get dressed, and you go into the wardroom, into the galley to get a cup of coffee they’ve been cooking since seven o’clock the night before, which I won’t drink coffee that’s more than 20 minutes old anymore, and you flip the lights on the walls would turn from brown to white. The cockroaches running, and you pour the coffee and “Oh gosh.” and then you go up to the bridge and you know stand your watch, but yeah that was not good and because it was flat bottomed the ship did roll. (58:55) When you sat in the wardroom the table had a lip about this high and the steward would put a tablecloth down and then take water and pour it on the table so the dishes wouldn’t slide, and then you sit down and they’d strap you in and depending which way– If the ship was moving this way or this way, you know you’re gonna lose your meal because your chair would slide out from underneath you and you’d get everybody’s food in your lap, you know. It was different it was– Food wasn’t bad except we ate out of the general mess, they didn’t have an officer’s mess like we did on the ammunition ship, and for about– Oh it must’ve been two months we started getting for dessert, dinner, fruit cocktails and wait a minute I was down in enlisted quarters they had cake. “Oh, crew ate it all.” That was the word from the stewards. So I walk back into the galley and here are the three stewards eating 11 pieces of cake, and I called the supply officer who’s junior to me, more junior officer, and I said “You got to stop that, it’s not fair.” You know he had just come out of supply school, he had knew nothing about how to maneuver and get things. So we kind of avoided him and he avoided us, but anyway the night before we were going to make our first trip to Vietnam I had a little ham radio or a little– �Chardoul, Paul Interviewer: “Transistor radio?” A transistor but it was short wave and I picked up harbor entrance control in Chu Lai where we were going and an LST was in there getting pounded with artillery and they had to retract early. So the commanding officer was walking by “Come and listen to this!” And he got all bent out of shape, so we had that to worry about going in. Chu Lai is an interesting port because you go in and there’s a river called the Cu Đê River that flows south and you’re coming in and you have to avoid that current and then make a turn and then run in on the beach, and as we were making our approach you’re going by these several islands and you could hear the artillery going, and so we’re all in combat gear, brain bucket, shirt buttoned up, cuffs into your socks and sleeves rolled down and flak jackets, and because I was the officer of the deck going in, I was in the bridge, and as we were coming in an F-4 from the Air Force Base– It’s not too far away, “Welcome to Sin” And he came in and when he came over the top of us went into afterburner and went straight up and the commanding officer was standing in front of the pilot house and he has binoculars on looking at what’s going on. He didn’t see it, it was coming from behind and he got so excited he dropped down, got his binoculars caught on the windshield wipers and he’s hanging upside down. XO and I are laughing we had to literally cut him down to get him off because he was going to choke, and then this boat came out to guide us in and the guys bring– On the boat, had a pair of cut off pants and a cowboy hat and flip flops and he said “You guys are dressed too much, there’s a bullet with your name on it.” You know, loosen up, and so it was a little better once we got there but it was– We got to Chu Lai probably four different times in the next five months and I couldn’t believe how that place had developed from tents to Quonset huts to regular buildings. They were laying a log runway as opposed to one with the metal– Interviewer: “Yeah the PSP or the metal matting stuff, yeah.” (1:04:25) Yeah, and you know a lot of out buildings and– I mean really amazing how much they had developed that in that period of time because they were getting a lot of supplies there. There were, at the time, two deep water piers in Vietnam, one in Saigon, one in Da Nang and so these large merchant ships– Because that’s really the best way to bring supplies not with LSTs across the Pacific from primarily Oakland. You couldn’t– They couldn’t park every place they wanted �Chardoul, Paul to and they’d be sitting out, like they are in California right now, and so they would break bulk in the Philippines, in Okinawa, and then LSTs would pick up supplies and take it in and that’s basically what our purpose was. Interviewer: “Alright and that’s sort of what you needed a substantial crew for, was just handling all of that cargo going on and being loaded there rather than at your final destination. Okay so Chu Lai is the first place you stop, now where else do you wind up going? I guess after Chu Lai where did you– It lists you going to Taiwan and Japan–” Yeah, we went– Because we needed some repairs, ship repairs, and so we went from there to our temporary home port of Sasebo in Japan but because the Japanese were not happy with the United States involvement in Vietnam, we had to do what’s called breaking voyage where you had to make an intermediate stop and so Taiwan is on the way. So we stopped usually either in Kaohsiung or Keelung on the way up to Japan and with some excuse. Dropping off some retrograde cargo or picking something up and taking it from Taiwan to Japan, same thing going back the other way and sometimes we picked up some major things like we picked up a huge load of bags of cement and these big barrels of bituminous material. Which is not good when those bags break and that stuff leaks, they’re really a mess and if we were not carrying wheeled vehicles or tracked vehicles we had what was called rough terrain forklifts. Which are fairly small but very noisy forklifts, unlike the ones you see with little round wheels these have big wheels, lugged wheels and they were articulated, each wheel had its own motor. So they could almost anywhere and we had three of them and they would take cargo out and move it around onto the sand or whatever. Interviewer: “So we’ve basically gotten you to sort of what you had been to Chu Lai then you went up to Japan. So we we’re kind of talking about– Then we were talking about some of the equipment you had and your forklifts and so forth. On the first visit to Chu Lai did you get shot at or was it quiet?” (1:08:20) We heard but not– No, we did see a helicopter landing probably, oh maybe like, maybe 500 meters away and picking up somebody and we saw that helicopter sitting at the small field �Chardoul, Paul hospital and that’s when I found out the person who had been wounded was in surgery 20 minutes after he was wounded. What a change, you know my master’s thesis was on the civil war, sometimes people would lay out there for two days before they’d find them, if they were still alive. Interviewer: “Well that could happen in combat even in Vietnam depending on where you were but yeah the speed of recovery, the helicopter in particular helped quite a bit. Alright so let’s continue, so what different place in Vietnam did you visit?” Oh boy, often you’re just dropping off some stuff, places like Phan Rang, Nha Trang– Oh boy. Interviewer: “You go to Cam Ranh Bay, right?” Cam Ranh Bay of course, yeah– I’m trying to think of where else. Interviewer: “Well you list Nha Trang, Vũng Tàu, and Saigon and Can Tho which is farther south.” Oh that’s later on. In Nha Trang it’s the home of the Vietnamese naval academy and so we got some cadets on board and at that time they were shorter than I am. To look over the combing on the bridge, they couldn’t see over it so they had to build a little platform so they could stand on there and, you know, at least they got a little experience on and LST. Vietnamese Navy was sort of the bad sister as opposed to the Air Force or the Army and they were not treated well. Their supplies were minimal, their training was terrible so that, you know, gave them some experience doing that which I thought was kind of good. Also went swimming in Nha Trang, they had it cordoned off and they had boats out there patrolling, not so much for the north Vietnamese but for the sea snakes that are kind of nasty. Interviewer: “That kind of thing, alright. Basically just talk about visiting some of these different places here and what you remember about them.” �Chardoul, Paul Okay, Phan Rang, Cam Ranh it was just a quick stop, matter of hours and at least at Cam Ranh Bay when we went in if I remember correctly there was a concrete ramp that we came up on rather than going up on the beach. One of the things about an LST is because you’re on the beach you better know two things: One, the gradient of the beach, and two, the quality of whatever surface you’re landing on. If it’s rocks you better know that and if it’s sand you want to know if it’s round sand or granular because if it’s granular then it compacts a lot more than if it’s round, but round you have a lot more moisture in it. (1:13:00) So you know you have to know all these things and sometimes we’d send somebody out with a pipe and take a sample– Go down about a foot and see what the composition of the ground was which is kind of interesting to do. Interviewer: “Okay, but at Cam Ranh at least you had something– Well Cam Ranh was a big place.” More concrete. Interviewer: “They had a big base so they had probably a little bit better developed as far as that kind of thing goes. Now in your notes you refer to this trip as the “Saigon milk run” Okay, that was after we came back from Japan, our first trip to Sasebo. We went to Saigon and we loaded cargo and of course we had no idea where we were going. Again on the ammunition ship all our operations were classified secret or higher, this was often a telephone call or an unclassified message saying “Go to such and such place and drop off–” You know, X amount of material and sometimes they’d change our orders after we got underway “Oh don’t take it here, take it there.” And– Which meant that because one of my collateral duties as postal officer I had to try to get the mail. Well if they change your next port, your mail’s here and you’re here and we’d go sometimes quite a long time between mail deliveries because of that and, you know mail is a real morale booster. When they pass mail call you can see, you know the guys get their mail and some of them would share their letters with other people, other people you’d see them take their one letter and they go off in the corner and read it, and read it, and read it over and over and over again, and some didn’t get any mail and those are the ones you really had to feel sorry for. �Chardoul, Paul When we augmented from 25 to 110 as we’re going through the records I’d say the majority of the new people were volunteers. The choice was the brig, bad conduct discharge or civilian jail, so he says “Oh I’ll go to Vietnam!” Interviewer: “So these are people who were in the Navy an in trouble so those are their options?” (1:15:52) So they’re sort of the dregs but, you know they pulled together beautifully on board ship. I was very pleased with how cohesive that ship was, it was a team, it was a real team. Interviewer: “Okay, but now were your college graduates part of that group or did you have those earlier because you mentioned–” They were some of the first ones on board, no they were not trouble makers. Interviewer: “They were regular recruits.” Yeah, as far as I know there’s just the three and they’re all my people so it was kind of neat. Interviewer: “Well they would’ve been closer to your age and had a little more experience.” Yeah, but you know because of the standing thing about no fraternization, you couldn’t go on liberty with them, and my radio man with the master’s degree from Caltech, he kind of lost it and he had some pretty nasty liberty because of it and he got broken twice. Interviewer: “Reduced in rank?” Mm-hmm but and then he went into the merchant marine, we communicate still and last time I talked to him was about two years ago and he’s retired now living in California. We’ve had six reunions, most of the officers and some of the enlisted and one of the– My corpsman because I �Chardoul, Paul also had the corpsman. He was an E6 corpsman, came on three of my trips, I take people on trips to different parts of the world now and he came on three of them with his wife, so that’s kind of neat. Interviewer: “Alright, kind wind out way back around, so you–” Back to the milk run. Interviewer: “The milk run. So is the idea that you load up supplies at Saigon and then distribute them other places?” (1:18:00) Yeah, when– To go up to Saigon you need a pilot, and you pick up the pilot at Vũng Tàu. It’s a fairly protected area and there’s always a few ships there and you go up one of two rivers to get to Saigon and you pass what’s called the RSSZ, the Rung Sat Special Zone, which is a free fire zone. If anything’s moving there it’s a target and so we had two old 50 caliber machine guns that we installed on the bridge wings, and got a chance to fire those, they didn’t work very well. They’d jam up all the time but you could take down a four inch tree at a couple hundred yards, I mean, mean weapons, really mean weapons and we had two small 30 caliber machine guns that were down below but we had that 40 millimeter cannon, open mount, one forward, one aft. When were were experimenting with the forward one we were at sea coming across, you know you drop a target, you drop a barrel in the water and then you shoot at it. They couldn’t hit it worth a darn, the gunfire director didn’t work so they’re basically trying to aim it and they never could, and then they found out that the cutout cams didn’t work. So if you’re tracking something and you’re firing it could take out the bridge, so the commanding officer said “Don’t give them any ammunition.” So we’re going up the rivers, you have this steel plate in front about that thick, not very thick, and the guys sitting there the loader, you know, the range guy and all that, five guys on the team. They’re open from the side, so if you don’t have any ammunition in there, why have those guys out there with the possibility of getting hit? But he said “Well because they don’t know that.” Oh yes they did, oh yes they did, they knew everything that we were doing. You know again going back to the ammunition ship, movements classified, go ashore and get some clothing made or something like that. “Oh yeah your next port is such and such.” They �Chardoul, Paul knew, and of course you go to, even– Because I spent time in the embassy and in Saigon you see a lot of the staff people were Vietnamese. I don’t know how well they were vetted and who they talked to, and what their communication– What their connections were and all that, there was a lot of that going on. Interviewer: “Alright, so when you’re out on these trips and you’re going up the river and so forth, would you take incoming fire periodically?” (1:21:35) Yeah, from Saigon you go back to– Interviewer: “Vũng Tàu?” Vũng Tàu, drop that pilot, pick up that pilot for the Mekong and then go up one of three– Because the Mekong is a delta, and you go up one of the three entrances that were navigable and the pilot would take you up there, because I was the only person that spoke French on board ship, and the pilot spoke either Vietnamese or French, but not English. We would sit on the deck of the pilot house– I remember there are two levels, there’s where the guy steered from and then one level above is the pilot house, and the pilot house had a canted glass like this all the way around and you got to it by going up a ladder on the outside of the ship and we took the glass out in case because bullets would come through, you could hear them going through and so we’d sit on the deck and he had these old French Army maps from ‘54 and he’d– “Okay,” In French “When you get to this snag come left to–” Such and such, you know because they knew where the sandbars were and where all the stuff floating down the river was and all that and so we’d, you know, do that if we’re taking any incoming fire. One time we were going up and all of a sudden the firing stopped and I thought, I said “Hey Paul, come here.” So I crawled to the back– The doorway was in the back of the pilot house, and we looked out and there’s this freighter going by us with a big French flag on it, and I said “Why aren’t they shooting?” “Oh, because they paid their taxes.” And I said “Aren’t we here because of them?” That’s when I started saying “Hmmm, maybe there’s something wrong with this war.” You know, but luckily no one ever got hit. We had bullet holes on the ship and on one of our stops because sometimes we had difficulty moving stuff around on board ship, I was– We were on the beach, I don’t remember �Chardoul, Paul where it was, where one of the officers called up, I was on the bridge because you have to have somebody on the bridge when you’re on the beach and he said– This is about, oh maybe 11 o’clock at night and of course remember sunset, dark, sunrise, light. There’s no long dusk or dawn, it's one or the other and because we’re, you know, not that far away from the equator it’s pretty much even day and night. I got this call on my phone and he said “I’ve got a crawler crane, we’re bringing it on board.” I said “What do you mean?” “Well it’s coming aboard now.” And clank clank clank clank, and brought in on board and it– Army crane just sitting there they found it out– It in fact did, you know they could start it, bring it on, lowered the boom on it and put it on the main deck. Painted it haze gray, put some fake numbers on it, and then on the cab put a great big target, and that target was full of holes. So they were shooting at that thing but again nobody got hurt, we did lose one man, fell over the side and that was kind of tragic. He was a non-rated seaman on the deck force and the pilot was getting ready to leave the ship we had just come back from Saigon, and he was gonna get on the pilot boat and I said “Captain pilot I have your accommodation ladder on the starboard side.” He said “Oh no, I always go off on the port side.” And I said “It’ll take me three hours to get that re-rigged on the port side.” Well he said “Pilot’s boat’s coming, just put a Jacob’s ladder over the side.” You know Jacob's ladder. Interviewer: “Explain that for the–” (1:26:58) Okay, Jacob’s ladder is metal rungs on, like a chain link sides and it rolls up and you just drop it. So there’s some stanchions they hooked it to and dropped it over, and the seaman dropped it over and when they went down it twisted. So he reached over to undo it and the railing broke, he fell in. I’m watching him go in “Left full rudder all stop! Put a boat in the water sound seven short blasts in the ships whistle, hoist oscar flag.” You know that all, and then the commanding officer said “Uhhh, I’ve got it.” So I turned to the quartermaster who has his quartermaster logs and “Write down everything he said.” “Right full rudder, no wait– Left, no wait– All engines– I had– Where are your engines?” He’s writing it all down. We never did get him, we were in Can Tho, which is on the Bassac river, got a message “Somebody washed ashore, do you wanna identify the body?” So I had to get some classified material in Saigon, so I told Skippers I’d go and I said I need to take my corpsman with me to identify the body and I need to take my postal clerk with me to find where our mail is. So we got a flight from Can Tho to Saigon, Tan Son Nhut Air Base �Chardoul, Paul and it’s pouring rain. I mean you’ve never been in a tropical rain, it’s degrading it just melts you, and we got off and there’s all this metal sheeting on the runway or the, you know the tarmac as we call it, and I looked around and I saw all these orange bags of mail just sitting out there in the rain. I looked at my postal clerk and said “Think one of those is ours?” He said “I don’t know.” “Go look.” So he went to look and then “I’ve gotta go to Saigon.” Or get into Saigon and it’s, you know it’s a few miles in. So we got a ride into Saigon and I went to three morgues, couldn’t find it, finally tried to call a few other morgues and, you know nothing happened. Finally someone said, “There’s a body at Tan Son Nhut, but you can’t go because it’s dark.” You have to– You can’t– You know nothing is flying. So I went around, looked around for a hotel, here we are in downtown Saigon, “Metropole Hotel.” I said “I’ve heard of that.” That’s where all the news correspondents were. So we walked in and I said “I’d like a room for three guys.” And they said “That’ll be $75” Or– I can’t remember, I think that was about the amount, in military pay certificates MPCs. I reached for my wallet, I had a $5 MPC, I dug down deeper in my wallet, I found a $20 greenback, I said “This is all I got.” I got change back, you know where that money went, black market just like that. So we had this big beautiful corner room and it was on the seventh floor and it was– Then we went up to the restaurant, it was on the eighth or ninth floor, whatever it was, and we watched the mortar fire in the distance and had a couple drinks. You know I could afford to be– My two guys had no money at all, and to fly from Can Tho to Saigon you’re supposed to have survival knife, and brain bucket, and you know all these other things, didn’t have any of that stuff, had our uniform on. So went out to Tan Son Nhut the next day and found a body– Found the morgue and the guy said “You don’t want to see it.” And I said “That’s what I’m here for.” So he opened up the cabinet and our sailor that fell in was an Italian kid who had a full beard and a lot of hair, full body hair. (1:32:05) He was all bloated, skin had turned green with blood oozing out, crabs had gotten to his face, couldn’t recognize him. I had the corpsman come in to check his, you know maybe to see his teeth or something, and he threw up. Wrap them up and send them home, that’s all we could do. We found some mail, I did my run to the, you know I got my computer stuff– Or crypto stuff, and then we went back, tried to get a flight back and there was an Army major who’s also trying to get a flight to Can Tho. So he said “Follow me and we’re gonna get one together.” I said “Okay.” So I found out there was a helicopter going to fly someplace and he said “I’ll take that helicopter.” And then this guy said “No sir, this helicopter– White Knight.” And he said “Good, I’m a White Knight, I’m taking the �Chardoul, Paul helicopter.” And so he said “Well okay.” “And this lieutenant here– Called Lieutenant JG, is the commanding officer of a ship he’s gotta get underway.” I wasn’t but what did the E2 know. So we got on– Or we’re getting on and he says “Oh by the way, I’m bringing my counterpart with me.” He says “No, no Vietnamese.” He says “Where I go, he goes, oh and he’s got two chickens.” Two live chickens in a bag. So we got on this helicopter, it was a huey, they’re so noisy, they gave me earplugs but we made one firing run. I got to see what an M-60 can do, this is a nasty weapon and very noisy, we made a circle and he did his run and then we went back to Can Tho and then I got a ride from there back to the ship. Interviewer: “Alright, I’m kind of looking at your entry now does that– Do you go back, from that mission, now do you go back to Taiwan or Japan?” Went back to Japan, yeah, again stopping in Taiwan. One time we were there overnight and got a chance to go to the American embassy in Taipei which is kind of neat because– First of all the road– I have to get back there that’s a beautiful country, just beautiful, but it was a mountainous road getting up to Taipei and, you know took a cab up. It was some kind of special celebration so they had two for one drinks, they were a nickel instead of a dime, 20 cents I was out of the world but again one time we made– Our stop was so quick we never even came to a complete stop, they just loaded one bag of something on board and we kept on going, broken voyage. I feel that diplomatic history, I know that very well. Interviewer: “Alright, you got here an entry in your itinerary that refers to “milk run turns sour” and that’s sort of you following the trip where you had to find the missing sailor for the next thing and then before the final milk run. So it’s like late July, is Bến Tre is that part of that–” What? Interviewer: “Got your list of things there, our cheat sheet.” �Chardoul, Paul It was just– We just– It was, well one thing– The same thing over and over again and– This came undone here, and our food supply was bad, we ate canned hamburger for two months and there’s only so many things you can do with canned hamburger. Powdered milk, they never really quite got it all so you drink it and get a lump. No vegetables, the only thing we did have we had a good bake shop and we could trade for other things, once in a while for vegetables or water because we were on water hours (1:37:33) You can make water out in the ocean with your condensers– Evaporators excuse me, but you can’t make it on river water and so if you were on water hours sometimes they’d have– They’d turn on the water for two hours every other day. Well if you just happened to have watch you missed it and you know when the bulkhead on board ship are so hot you can’t touch them, no air conditioning, a little smelly and remember I told you earlier that our alleged barber became the ship’s laundryman? Two days after we got underway the laundry mysteriously broke and we couldn’t get any spare parts. So we all had to do our own laundry and so you’d wash your clothes with you in the shower, when we had showers and so when we come out of the Mekong first thing I do is I aim for the nearest cloud, get out to sea of course they’re getting ready to start the evaporators and pass the word “Showers are now being held on the main deck, bring your towel and your soap.” You know, and of course then it was all guys you could do it, not a problem. Morale was pretty bad, we had the chance to do what are called in reps, I was used to underway reps, you know called un reps. In rep is where you come alongside– There’s small supply ships, in places like Cam Ranh, Vũng Tàu, where you could sidle up to another ship and you could pass stuff over. Our supply officer didn’t want to do it because he didn’t know how, and we had a storekeeper who kept pulling his hair out and he’d say “Sir please we can do it, we can do it!” “No, no, no, no, we can’t do it.” And he’s come up with some fake regulation. I’d check it out and it didn’t exist, we’d called him the ghost he disappeared, you know. “John!” He’s gone, but John and I decided we were gonna grow beards and we got permission for the enlisted people to grow beards and the supply officers and I said “Let’s grow beards.” So we did this going up to Japan the first time so we both grew pretty good sized beards and because I had the mobile marine phone connection I was fairly well liked on board ship, and the barber would do my– Underneath here, you know for– So it looked decent, nice and trimmed, and the day before we got to Japan the commanding officer realized the morale was in pretty bad shape and so he wanted to take a picture of all the guys with beards. So John and I shaved and we went from a pretty dark thing to just white and because he had no hair �Chardoul, Paul on his head he’d always say “Doesn’t that beard itch?” And you know the first couple weeks it does itch but you’d “No, no it’s fine.” Anyway that was the one morale thing we had on board ship. Interviewer: “Alright, now you’ve got some notes here relating to a final milk run, sort of the last thing you do. Okay, can you talk about that?” You mean going back up the river? Yeah we went to a little town just north of Can Tho called Binh Thuy, and there was a small U.S Air Force detachment teaching Vietnamese Air Force how to fly the A-1. Well the A-1 is not an Air Force plane so there’s some Navy people, teaching the Air Force, so they can teach the– You figure that one out, and the supplies that we dropped off there were also for a Vietnamese Special Forces camp and the person accepting the goods was a dai uy, a captain, a Vietnamese captain and you know I was talking to them once and I said “You know, so tell me about you. How long you been here?” (1:43:00) He says “Oh a few months.” “Where were you before?” Silence. “Dai uy where were you?” “I was in jail.” “Why?” “Extortion.” So now we have millions of dollars of equipment and supplies going to some guy who’d just gotten out of jail from extortion. He had his family with him and we built– You know you have all kinds of extra lumber, we built him a nice little home there and shed where he can put stuff in. Even built a cooler for him so he could cool beer because 110 degree bombing bomb beer is horrible. It’s bad at 50 degrees but it’s horrible at 110 and so one time we pulled– I had to have a beer so I said “Dai uy pour me one please!” So poured it in a glass, put some ice in there, I’m drinking it, my corpsman came up and he said “Where’d that ice come from?” I looked in the river, I said “Oh shit.” And I did for the next ten years, I got some kind of disease. Yeah, when I was teaching at community college they scheduled my classes right across from the bathroom, I’d be teaching. “Excuse me!” Run across, yeah and that lasted ten years and it finally cleared out but, you know it was– It was not fun. Interviewer: “Alright, there’s a mention here of a Green Beret coming aboard?” Oh yeah, we were– Because when you’re on the river, it’s flowing okay. So we always had a guard up in front with big flashlights, anything that moved you shot at– In the water. We also �Chardoul, Paul had the ability to throw stun grenades out and, you know if somebody’s there and then periodically you turn the screws in case somebody’s trying to get on board, shift the stern. We installed lights right at water level, shining down they wouldn’t shine up you would see them, and all around the ship and we had small boats patrolling in the water and I had the watch once and I looked over the side and this rubber raft– Or rubber boat came alongside and guys came on board and “Wait a minute.” Well they wouldn’t sign the deck log, they said “We’re not here. We need some warm food.” So I hustled up a meal for them and got their clothes off and got them some clean clothes, but their stuff was pretty ratty, and they spent about four hours onboard ship, got back in their little boat and took off. We also had some SEALs come onboard, we had them stay overnight and again because they’re out here patrolling for us too. A matter of fact one time they came onboard, nobody knew they’d come on board, so that got a report going. We had a roving patrol, armed roving patrol, walking around the ship at odd times, you know just for that purpose. One time– Because it was a two day trip to get up to– What we do is we go up through Mekong to near the Cambodian border, and then cross over on a small, narrow canal, a little wider than this room, you know with branches overhanging, to the Bassac river and then down the Bassac to Can Tho or Binh Thuy and– So the first night– Because remember our speed is sometimes less than the flow of water, and we would drop anchor, and of course you drop anchor and you let it pay out, and we do it just before sunset. Sunset would come, get underway again, pick up the anchor, go a couple of clicks down, drop it again and then watch the firing behind us. They had zeroed in where they thought we were, we learned that one from another LST which had gotten his, and I mean some of those LSTs really got– They really got hit. (1:49:02) The reason I know this is because I decided to write a history of LSTs in Vietnam and I found 84 of them were involved, total of 84, and going all the way back to 1954 and the last LST actively involved was when the Americans mined Haiphong Harbor, you know to get the North Vietnamese back to the bargaining table and they would not do it until we de-mined the harbor. So they sent out a whole bunch of mine sweepers, they cleared a path and they said “We don’t trust you.” They took a newer LST, took everything off that had any weight on it, loaded the tank deck and the wing walls with fiberglass and then a small crew of like 10 or 12 people, and they ran it up and down a few times. So, you know– So from ‘64 to ‘75– Oh ‘54 to ‘75 they were there. �Chardoul, Paul Interviewer: “Yeah I think the Haiphong Harbor mining was late ‘72 because the peace agreement was early ‘73. So that would’ve been around the time of all that.” Yeah it was– The mining took like about 20 minutes, real quick, but it basically shut the harbor down. When I was stationed in Hawaii I suggested that they mine it and one of the intelligence officers would show me the T-pier in Haiphong. There’s a Canadian ship, a British ship, a French ship “Aren’t they allies?” Interviewer: “Yeah, I mean that was discussed really throughout the entire war time period and there are a lot of political and diplomatic reasons why you couldn’t do it, which was true of Vietnam generally for a lot of things. Okay, and we’re kind of getting toward the latter part here with your tour with the LST. So after that last milk run then how do things wind down with you and the ship and go on from there?” Okay then we went back to Japan and when we crossed the bar of the Mekong that last time– Normally we’d try to cross at high tide and I’d clear the fan tail because it’d be mud going all over, we hit bottom but we really hit bad and going up river you can feel the– Something was wrong, and what happened was both screws the blades were bent like that. So they’re going to be vibrating and it actually displaced where the shaft comes out to get to the screws, it had bent that which meant that water was getting in. Something called the Kingsbury thrust bearing and that supposedly is a totally watertight seal, it wasn’t. Water’s pouring into the ship and we’re, you know trying to de-water it all the time, plus some guys were down in the bilges chipping paint pshhh! They went through the bottom of the ship, you go through that many landings you’re just running off the bottom of the ship and so we decided we really needed some major, major repairs. So up to Japan and into the shipyard and we were there over a month replacing the shafts, and the screws, and putting new plates on the bottom of the ship and then they put teflon on them because it was anti-fouling and it was there that I left the ship. Interviewer: “Alright, now was this a scheduled relief or had you applied for other duty?” (1:54:05) �Chardoul, Paul Yeah, while we were in Vietnam I knew I was going to be short toured and I found out that my replacement was going through officer candidates, it was going to be a green ensign and I said “Make sure he goes to com school.” So that’s another two months, and the XO kept saying “Well, you know if he doesn’t come you’re staying on board.” “I don’t think so I think I gotta get off this ship.” And he suggested because I knew so much about what was going on that I would easily become the operations officer on another LST if I didn’t stay on that one and I said “I really want to get off– I need to get off active duty.” Or off sea duty. So I– Here you are trying to work with the detailer using mail and all the vagaries of late delivery and all that, but I contacted the detailer in Washington and I asked for duty at the com school in Newport. I got it, I said “Great! That’ll be kind of fun.” You know shore duty, I love Newport, that’s a great city and so then they said “Oh, but you have to extend 30 months.” Whoops. Okay now what, so I said “Well, okay I’m gonna go for the moon, I’d like to be the assistant fleet historian of the United States Pacific fleet.” And they created the billet and gave it to me, I had a master’s degree in history, I had a bachelor’s degree in history. I mean it was a perfect match and it just so happened that the historian on the Pacific fleet staff who was a commander was not getting along well with the admirals and when we got there we saw why. His history was terrible, it was just chronology it was like that sheet I gave you and it had– You know there’s no analysis, nothing in there. So he was responsible for writing the command history, now the command history because there are some 200 under commands, ship and shore commands that report to Pacific fleet headquarters, you take that input and you write your history from them and you just take that and add it, take that and add it, and nobody wrote decent command histories then they just– It was just a summary of what they had done. He also was responsible for a monthly summary report which was a, you know what works, what doesn’t work and when we got there in late September of 1966, both the new commander and me, we saw what he had done and I mean it had no validity at all, and so the commander who had written a couple best sellers, one of them is still in publication The Big E on the old enterprise, naval institute has been republishing it over and over again and he also won $64,000 on a $64,000 question because he had been teaching English at the University of Miami and so they recalled him to active duty, promised him that he’d get his fourth stripe and that he’d be back in flying status. Neither of which they lived up to and we decided we’d, you know redo everything. So we went back and rewrote the ‘63, the ‘64, and ‘65 histories and then did the ‘66 new one and got up to June of ‘67 when I left, and then I took over �Chardoul, Paul the monthly summary report. That was about seven months in arrears, well it had no validity you’re talking about something that happened that far back and it took me a couple months to get it up to speed but we went from a 12 page basically xerox thing with really poor pictures to a 48 page four color with a lot of analysis, and the first time I had it done the day after the end of the month, chopped through all the various offices because I did it as they needed to be done, and sent it off and copy number one went to Bobby Kennedy. Of course I kept asking “Does he have the clearance?” “Shh, don’t talk about it.” And there’re only like 22 copies made it was classified, as the history was, secret with top secret addenda. But we started bringing other people in to help. I knew nothing about bomb damage assessment, so I was at the BOQ bar and I saw this guy with wings on and I said “What are you doing?” “I’m waiting for my ship.” “When’s it coming in?” “I don’t know about four months.” “Got a job for you.” (2:00:40) So he did BDA for me, another guy who did gunfire support for me, another guy did supply. I basically coordinated and then did the analysis part and worked with the intelligence people and I was able to put together a good thing. We even took over the computer people on board the staff and the graphics people, had our own driver, had our own admin person who did, you know setting up all the whatever admin stuff we had. We went from a staff of two plus one typist, and by the way it’s Commander Stafford his handwriting was worse than mine, it was a round scrawl. His wife could read it, I could read it, and our yeoman could read it, that was about it, I should’ve brought in a couple of books that he wrote for me. So we went from the three of us to staff of over 100, people were already there, they’re not doing anything, got them busy and we got this thing done and it was– I felt good about that, we really accomplished a lot, and then when I left active duty I had to write a job description code. I was replaced by three civilians, each of whom had a GS rating higher than I was as Lieutenant GG, but we put in long hours I was used to that and that’s not untypical of uniformed services. Doing active duty for training in the Pentagon and you see all the civilians go at 4:30 and when do you leave? When the work’s done, eight, nine, ten o’clock you know. Interviewer: “Now you had mentioned before when we were not on camera earlier talking about an incident that I guess made it sound like you would attend regular briefings or other sessions that the admirals had or that kind of– That’s part of your job as well was to report that kind of thing?” �Chardoul, Paul Uh-huh because that’s how I got a lot of the information. Interviewer: “And you mention at one point getting yourself in trouble?” Okay, I was– I had read about several flyers who, by the way they’re naval aviators they’re not pilots, who had come near the island of Hainan, they were still in international air space but they were chased by some Chinese communists, mig-17s and they took off and went definitely into international waters. So when that carrier came back I got one of the pilots into my office and I interviewed him and he told me– Described the whole situation and I was writing about it later and I realized that I didn’t know what the tail marking was on a mig-17, so I called up the air intelligence officer in the intel center and I asked him and he said “Just a minute.” Click. And then the phone rang and it was the admiral– A guy who had just made rear admiral he’s “Come to my office!” And so I went up there and he wanted to know why I was dealing with classified material on an unclassified phone call and I asked him who we were keeping it from and he pulled three of my clearances right then but within two days one of the admirals– There were two admirals, one was commander in chief Pacific fleet the other was commander in chief Pacific area and then the vice admiral– Ramage, red ramage and Admiral Johnson the CINCPAC fleet wanted to know where I was and said “I pulled his clearances.” “Get him back.” So I got back in. (2:05:22) There is a very close staff and, you know even to the point where– I’d sometimes be walking in the corridor where the admirals were and Admiral Ramsey said “Hey Paul come on in!” And he said “Did I ever tell you about my ship?” And I said– You know he was a submarine commander in World War II who got the congressional medal of honor and he’d lay out his charts and show me how his boat had come up in the middle of a Japanese convoy and he and the quartermaster, just the two of them above shooting at these merchant ships and he was an interesting person. I used to swim for lunch at the pool instead of eating and he’s show up “Oh you can have my spot admiral I’m done.” And he would swim an hour and just go back and forth that was amazing. Well when the person I work for Commander Stafford retired shortly after I did he became the writer for the secretary of the Navy, Warner, and when secretary of the Navy became the bicentennial commision he followed him there. So he retired �Chardoul, Paul from that finally, fourth retirement and I visit him periodically, his name was Edward Peary Stafford his grandfather was Admiral Peary and he had all the memorabilia from the North Pole. Interviewer: “I’m not sure he ever made admiral but it’s a common–” P-E-A-R-Y Interviewer: “Yeah Robert Peary he’s famous, I mean he’s commodore.” Commodore. Interviewer: “Probably, or commander.” He never made admiral and you know he– So I got a lot of good information from him. Interviewer: “Alright, so when do you then go off of active duty?” I got off in late June of 1967. Interviewer: “Okay, and then what do you do once you’re out?” Well while I was there I took the graduate record exam finally, even though I had a master’s before I didn’t take the GRE before and I intended to go back to college and work on a doctorate in history and they tried to keep me there. They tried to keep me on staff and have me augment from Naval Reserve to regular Navy, and of course once you go regular Navy they’ve got you and I wanted to stay in the reserves. So they offered me the possibility of becoming the military representative for the Mariana’s Trust territory but I wasn’t married, and they said “If you’re not married, you’re not going because all you’re going to do is drink.” And, you know we don’t want that. (2:09:00) I had met a young lady the weekend before we had left for Vietnam, I’d come home to Flint, my parents said “Oh good, you can go to–” this person’s wedding and I said “Uh, uniform.” “Wear your uniform.” This is in late January and so I was in blue and so I went to the �Chardoul, Paul wedding, the ceremony– Or the reception afterwards I saw this one woman and I said “I like her.” So I asked her to dance and we had the last dance and I– Wow, that’s all I could think of when I was in Vietnam, I got to get back to her. So I did, when I got back, I found an excuse to go to Milwaukee where she lived and met her again and took my parents with me. So it’d look– Cause my dad had a roommate in college from outside of Milwaukee so we visited with him and then, you know and then saw her and I said “Can we write when I’m in Hawaii?” and she said yeah. So about once a week letters go back and forth and my yeoman committed– Because she didn’t put perfume on but he recognized the return address and he let me know “She’s written to you again.” It’s funny because I had one top secret safe and I set the combination and nobody else had that combination, one day I walked in and here’s Yeoman Corley opening up my safe and I said “Uhhh.” He said “24-19-63” 24-19 63rd street, he said “I figured that one out and better change it.” So I did and so I found out when her birthday was and I sent her a flower lei, that did it. I got home and went to her house, she was living with her parents, and spent two days there over the 4th of July weekend. She came to Flint, stayed with our parents, separate bedroom and Monday morning we take her to the airport. Eating breakfast and I announced to my parents that we’re getting married, and they said “When?” I said “December.” My dad said “No.” He was a graduate engineer, he had two degrees in engineering and he said “You’re a typical, practical person.” He said “No, that’s all you’re gonna think of when you’re back in grad school you’re gonna be spending every weekend in Milwaukee, do it now.” So before she got off the plane in Milwaukee, there was a direct flight from Flint to Milwaukee then, her brother had arranged for church and place for reception– I love that guy, and we got married 2nd of September, and you know so we did it and been happy ever since. Interviewer: “Alright, now did you go and complete the doctorate or what happened after you get married, because you went to Michigan State again?” Yeah, I enrolled there and did all my course work, language exams, prelims, wrote the dissertation four times– Typewriter, make a change, change everything. They kept changing the committee on me, finally in fall of ‘69 I got called from a friend to teach at Grand Rapids Junior College, I said “One semester.” And of course 30 years later I retired and so I never finished the dissertation. �Chardoul, Paul Interviewer: “Alright, so you did– That became your job but you stayed in the naval reserves though.” Mhmm. Interviewer: “Okay and talk a little bit about what you did with them.” (2:14:00) Okay, well again it started in Lansing again and when we moved to Grand Rapids fall of ‘69 I joined in Grand Rapids and at that time there still was one night a week, or one– Yeah one night, you know, yeah one night a week and so I used to get a haircut every Tuesday night for the Wednesday meeting and then shortly thereafter we went to weekend drills, which are much more productive and I had an early command as head of the Naval Reserves Officer School where I taught courses like oceanography and one course in international relations, and then most of the other units I was involved in were shipboard units and then I made lieutenant and then lieutenant commander and when I made commander the number of pay billets just disappears. It’s a pyramid like that and so I went I think seven years without a pay billet. Interviewer: “What does that mean, a pay billet?” It means you get paid for your duty on the weekend that you’re there, one weekend a month, it amounted to probably $200 a month maybe $250 and for two years there were three of us who drilled with two units, two different units or we’d be thrown out, you know it was one of those things and then you sort of picked up whatever you could wherever. I became commanding officer of a shipboard repair facility in Muskegon and I stole some of Grand Rapids people, took them with me and that was interesting. I had a billet where I was going around the state recruiting for basically submarine officers, going to colleges. I had one– Another non-pay job where I was the coordinator of retention for the state of Michigan. I’d go to reserve centers and just watch, ask questions, and then go meet with the captain at Great Lakes and say “Fire that guy, move this guy over here.” So I showed up and he’d “Oh my god Commander Chardoul’s here!” And it was that time I saw a unit outside Detroit, there’s a small unit and I said “They had �Chardoul, Paul some high power people in there but they weren’t doing anything.” So I went back to the captain and I said “I’d like to be in that unit.” He said “I can put you in there as admin officer.” I said “Okay.” So we reorganized the unit and it became a headquarters unit for naval forces, Europe which is their four star command in London and we controlled 18 reserve units all around the United States and we ran an exercise in London the last week of October, first week of November, that I wrote the exercise report and did that for four years. Which is a nice bill I also had one other command bill and I was commanding officer of a brand new unit put together of a Spruance-class destroyer. So I had to go to destroyer school, you know learn how they operate and that was an interesting thing. The ship was based in Charleston, got a chance to get to Charleston a few times and ride that ship. Interviewer: “And so what you’re doing with a lot of these units is you’re there to augment, or replace or whatever, if something is called into duty then the reserves are called into help, so the extra manpower there. Alright so that’s the U.S.S Nicholson the destroyer?” (2:19:15) That’s the Nicholson. Interviewer: “Okay so that’s on the list here. Alright, and then I guess you– And then when do you actually retire out of the Navy?” When I was attached to this unit in Detroit, we moved from Southfield to east Detroit and it was just taking too much of my time. I was averaging 60 hours a month because I was doing three active duties for training a year, and one of them was three weeks long, the one in London which wasn’t all bad but I did– I ran an exercise in New Orleans one time, I went to a school in San Diego several different time and, you know as admin officer of this unit and then eventually XO, you know you’d drill one weekend a month but then I’d have a second drill halfway through in Lansing and I’d have all the officers come in from various places. I had one officer who flew in from Hawaii, he was a United pilot he deadhead in, you know but he wanted the billet so badly and it was the intel billet and so that worked out well for him but he couldn’t come in to that second meeting. So when we wrote the exercise– Or I wrote the exercise one of the things I did �Chardoul, Paul was, rather than keep doing the same thing every day over and over again like a lot of war game things are, at two o’clock in the afternoon London time I’d have a message go out that changed the situation a little bit and we’re running this thing, I told the intel officer “Okay, send it.” He sent it about ten minutes later the phone rang “It’s for you.” “Hello? Yes sir!” It was the force sergeant he said “Do you know where I am?” “Yes sir you’re in Naples.” “No I’m flying, I’m going to Brussels.” I called a meeting of the military ministers. “Stop the problem.” “Yes sir.” So we stopped the problem. I had found a situation where shifting from Navy control to NATO control, there was a gap where something could go wrong and there wouldn’t be anybody there to take care of it and that’s what that message was for and the admiral said “You either get a letter of accommodation or you’re fired.” I got the letter of accommodation. Interviewer: “Good. Alright, now you’ve also got something in your notes here about teaching at the naval war college.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Did you do that while you were still in the reserves or was that afterwards?” (2:22:35) Yeah, I did that three summers back in the mid ‘70s and I found out that there was this possibility of doing that and of course naval war college is right on the bay– Head of the bay in Newport “Yes!” So it was a course– Or actually a whole curriculum and strategy and policy, and so there are about six courses. There was five of us who designed it and then we also taught some residents there for part of a short course and then I taught distance learning component of that strategy and policy to naval officers basically all over the country. When you sign up for naval war college they send you a couple books and so we, you know to do this we followed what the resident policy– Or resident curriculum was except made some modifications and then you know starting with Thucydides, the Peloponnesian War and work our way through– Up and through the second world war and then one guy and I decided we were gonna do something a little different. So we created a whole curriculum using non-western sources, which is a lot of fun doing. I think that got put on a shelf and never got used but anyway I did that for three �Chardoul, Paul summers– Or parts of three summers but while I was there for one of them I even got in a movie. Yeah and– Oh what movie was it, oh my god I shouldn’t have said this. The Great Gatsby, the first time it was done and so I was an extra and they were doing the casting at Salve Regina College. I used to date a girl there so I knew the layout fairly well, and the main entrance was closed so I went around back. Got in and walked up to the desk where they were there and said “I’m here for the Naval War College.” “Oh! Oh, here!” They had no idea what was going on but they said “Okay, you’re gonna be one of the fun seekers.” So they gave me a tuxedo to wear and I had to take off my watch because they didn’t wear watches in the 20s and I always had a short haircut so that worked okay they put some grease on it, and it was a foggy night. We started about three o’clock in the afternoon, it was really foggy, and we’re in this extras bus just sitting there waiting to be called. “Okay we need two waitresses.” So these women in waitress costumes went off. I was standing outside of the door of the bus because it was warm on the bus and I said “You know–” To the guy that was there “If your hair was shorter you’d look like Mia Farrow.” And he said “I’m her brother John.” I said “Oh.” He said “I’m here to keep the local Newport people out because they treated our family terribly.” So we started talking, he found out that my field of interest was the 1920s he said “Perfect match, I’m gonna get you in.” I said “Okay.” (2:26:55) So he got me in one scene that we redid probably 15 times, and the scene itself lasted about a minute but the prep time for each time, you know. So it was almost all night and they teamed me up with this woman who was living and Newport and, you know. You ever– There are a couple versions of Great Gatsby but this one was done in the 19th century. Interviewer: “Oh the Robert Redford one right, yeah.” We walked across this beautiful parquet floor and then another couple came up and then waiters came up with a tray of canopies. “Do not eat them!” Because they’re all sprayed, you know and we’re drinking grape juice but my friend had a hip flask and so she was dousing ours up pretty good and then Redford would walk in and, you know “Oh!” You know and it was– Again I don’t know how many times they did this, finally– You know they never did shoot that one, but they had me do another thing where they had me with an English teacher and they had a mic over us, and they had us walk through a crowded room, this big ball room, just talking. Everybody else is saying “Mumble, mumble, mumble, mumble.” That’s what they’re saying “Mumble, mumble.” �Chardoul, Paul Yeah, and you can talk– I said “Can we talk about expatriates?” “Don’t mention Fitzgerald.” “Okay. What are we gonna talk about?” Well we talked about Gertrude Stein and we talked about Hemmingway, you know it was kind of interesting and this mic followed us along, and in one of the scenes you can actually hear us for about that long. The scene that we spent most of the night on disappeared entirely, they shot that again in England, but I got $20 and a sandwich and I met Robert Redford and I’m taller than he is. I was then, I’ve got some back problems and I’ve lost about two and half inches. Interviewer: “Alright, I think we’ve kind of gotten through your career pretty well here, you’ve done a variety of other things in the community and so forth but this is primarily sort of your military story here. So I guess to wind up if you wanted to sort of sum things up here a little bit, how do you think your time in the service affected you or what have you taken out of it?” Probably my ability to deal with people, I think would be very important. My understanding of technology, I had almost no knowledge at all, I was the– Besides teaching a full load at community college I also was the liaison with the technology staff and our faculty for technology. I got a grant from National Science Foundation, a million and a half dollar grant for technology at the college that I distributed to various departments and I had the first computer on the desk of faculty. (2:30:58) Unfortunately I didn’t know how to say no so I was in a lot of teams and committees where I was often the only faculty member and a lot of it dealt with technology. After I retired from teaching in ‘99 I became the coordinator of distance learning at the college so when the college went to, you know off campus like everybody else did there are some faculty that are trained– Appropriately trained, most of the ones that I had trained have retired but there’s still some left over and a lot of the groundwork that I had done with the team that I had created was still functioning. So that made it a lot easier and then I’m the commanding– CEO of breakfast club of Grand Rapids and they’re in the 19th century, one of my former students became a member and I made him my COO and we computerized that so that when we went to Zoom we were ready. Everybody had, you know I mean we were ready and it– Yeah it just, you know so technology is a really important part of it and not just having it but �Chardoul, Paul understanding that it can go down and know what you can do to fix it and how you can make things better and not just technology for the sake of technology. Interviewer: “Alright, I guess the other thing here to note is that you’ve done a lot of volunteer work with the Grand Rapids Art Museum.” Oh I also set up a distance learning program for them too. Interviewer: “Alright, the whole thing makes for a pretty remarkable story so I’d just like to thank you for taking the time to share it with us today.” � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ChardoulP2379V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Chardoul, Paul N. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-10 Title A name given to the resource Chardoul, Paul (Interview transcript and video), 2021 Description An account of the resource Paul Chardoul was born in Waterloo, Iowa on August 17th, 1939. He graduated high school in 1957. He earned his bachelor's degree in history from the University of Michigan and his master's degree from Michigan State University in 1964. While writing his master’s thesis, he joined the Naval Reserves as a seaman recruit and attended training in Lansing. He spent six months in the Reserves during which he took the officer battery test, scored well, and went to officer candidate school in Newport, Rhode Island, in 1964. For his first assignment, he was based in Norfolk, Virginia on the ammunition ship U.S.S. Diamond Head. He did several cruises into the North Atlantic Ocean, Caribbean Sea, and Mediterranean Sea. He returned to the U.S. in December 1965, and was transferred to the U.S.S. Chesterfield County, an LST (tank landing ship) based in Little Creek, Virginia. He departed for Chu Lai, Vietnam on February 11th, 1966. On the way he stopped in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii and Subic Bay, Philippines. In Vietnam, his job was to load cargo on trips called “milk runs” and drop it off at various places, such as Phan Rang, Nha Trang, and Cam Ranh Bay. He also traveled to Sasebo, Japan several times for ship repairs, stopping in Taiwan on the way. After the final milk run, he went back to Japan and spent over a month repairing the ship because it had gotten severely damaged. Chardoul then left sea duty and became the assistant fleet historian of the United States Pacific fleet in September 1966. He got off active duty in June 1967. He returned to Michigan State to begin working on a doctorate in history, but in 1969 his friend asked him to teach at Grand Rapids Junior College, so he began working there and never finished the dissertation. While working as a professor, he stayed in the Naval Reserves, where he taught courses at the Naval Reserves Officer School and the Naval War College, served as the commanding officer of a shipboard repair facility in Muskegon, went to colleges across the state to recruit for the Navy, worked as the coordinator of retention for the state of Michigan, and reorganized a small unit outside Detroit to become a headquarters unit for Naval Forces Europe. Chardoul also served as the commanding officer for a unit based in Charleston, South Carolina on the Spruance-class destroyer U.S.S. Nicholson. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Iraq War, 2003-2011—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a79af9caa53a77c27f922b70a088bb36.jpg c34e589223db4d2d5e11132fcbddf440 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource GVSU Concert & Event Posters Subject The topic of the resource Posters Events Michigan Universities & colleges--Michigan Description An account of the resource Division of Student Services provides programs, services, and environments that enhance the personal, social, and intellectual growth of undergraduate and graduate students at the University. Events including concerts were managed by the office of Student Life. Posters for music, speakers, poetry readings and other campuswide events are included. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Division of Student Services Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/106">Student Services concerts, events, and posters files, (GV028-06)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-07-17 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV028-06 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1963 – 1981 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV028-06_charleslloyd Title A name given to the resource Charles Lloyd jazz workshop and concert, November 1, 1974 Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Grand Valley State College Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities & colleges--Michigan Events Posters Description An account of the resource Charles Lloyd jazz workshop and concert, Campus Center performance space and multi-purpose room, November 1, 1974. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1974 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/106">Student Services concerts, events, and posters files, (GV028-06)</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c2a015e7ddba94f76f8aab65b13cf37c.mp4 011bc0ded309c689214cdf3dfd3752ea https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/77dc04097aff44400021dfba57fb5da5.pdf 648b7c3f00ceb9834cb682b70ed8e187 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Charles “Judge” Older Date of interview: April 26, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 1] FRANK BORING: Judge, why don't we just begin by your giving us some idea, what was background that let you to eventually become a pilot? JUDGE OLDER: Well, I was attending UCLA. I think the first airplane ride I had was while I was attending UCLA. I went out to Mines Field, which is now L.A. International and paid $5 for a ride in an old midway N skull? The pilot took me up for a half hour and we played around in the clouds and I was sold after that. And the next thing that happened was that shortly before I graduated some Navy JG came around who was trying to get college students interested in the cadet program and he gave us some very interesting stories about Navy flying, snap rolls, wing overs and all of the other formation flying. By the time he got thru I was pretty well sold on the idea of going to flying before I went to I was going to continue and go on to law school, but the cadet program provided a way that you could get into the service and stay for 3 years get your flight training, become an officer and join one of the active squadrons and then after 3 years you could get out and continue your education and that's what I intended to do. FRANK BORING: So where did you actually begin your training as a pilot? JUDGE OLDER: Well, I went in as a naval cadet, but I became a marine cadet down at Long Beach. Long Beach is what they called the elimination �base. You went down there and got ten hours of instruction and soloed and if you passed the course down there then you went to Pensacola for the full flight course. FRANK BORING: Once you arrived at Pensacola, did you find the same kind of excitement in the learning how to fly as you had anticipated when you first went down? JUDGE OLDER: Oh, absolutely. Pensacola was a great place. FRANK BORING: What can you tell us about it? JUDGE OLDER: Well, I don't remember how many hundred cadets were there. We lived in barracks and very nice barracks. Pensacola is a very pretty place and for flying it is ideal. It's on the water and of course they had seaplanes and big boat flying which I didn't go into. Because they changed the course, I think our class was the first course that didn't get seaplane training and we went on into fighters. They had 4 or 5 airfields that you worked out of in the area. The course took something like I think it was 9 months. At the end of that time if you got thru all the checks, the various checks, you had checks, Squadron II, you had checks in squadron, I mean flight checks the instructors taking you up and checking you out. The big check was the check in Squadron III if you got by 8 hour check in Squadron III that's when the cadets would usually go out and bought themselves cars. Because that meant that unless something really happened that was if they really fouled up they were going to completed the course and get there wings and have steady source of income so they went, I bought myself a brand new 1940 Mercury convertible, black with a tan top and red leather upholstery. It was really a machine. FRANK BORING: The next question is a continuation of this, but I let you know what I'm trying to lead to. There was a reason why you eventually decided to take the opportunity of going to China, but before �getting into that –well, I'm not going to stay in the States I'm going to go to China. Do you see what I'm trying to… JUDGE OLDER: Well, it didn't happen that way. FRANK BORING: Ok. JUDGE OLDER: But I got the picture. FRANK BORING: Ok, what were your options once you did graduate from cadet school? JUDGE OLDER: Well, you really didn't have any options. They assigned you to a squadron and fortunately I was assigned to a fighter squadron in the Marine Corp, being a Marine cadet which I wanted. I could have of course gone into other Marine squadrons, but fortunately I did go into VMF 1, Fighting Squadron 1 at Quantico, Virginia. Along with Tom Haywood and Ken Jernstedt you also became AVG pilots with me at the same time. FRANK BORING: When did you first hear about the opportunity in China? JUDGE OLDER: I had just gotten back from leave out in Los Angeles after we had returned from 7 months down in the West Indies, primarily at Guantanamo, Cuba and Puerto Rico and after I got back from Los Angeles there was talk going around the squadron about some Navy commander who had been there talking about getting some of the reserve fighter pilots and all of the AVG pilots had to come out of the reserves. They wouldn't release any of the regulars. He was talking signing up and going to China to fight with Chinese against the Japanese to protect the Burma Road. So that sounded very interesting to me and Tom and Kenny and I were probably only 3 out of 5 pilots in the squadron who were reserve pilots who would qualify for that. So after much soul searching we decided we wanted to do that. and we went up to Rockefeller Center which was the headquarters of a company called CAMCO Central �Aircraft Manufacturing Company, which was a front for the AVG and talked to the people up there and gave us all the information and so forth. FRANK BORING: Let me ask you first of all what did you know about China? About the Chinese at this point? JUDGE OLDER: Very little. Of course I'd never been there. Only what I'd read. I knew there was a war going on there between the Chinese and the Japanese. It started in 1937. I knew the Chinese were being bombed indiscriminately by the Japanese. That's about all I knew. FRANK BORING: Why would you want to go to China? JUDGE OLDER: Primarily the adventure. And to support a good cause. We had gotten very good training in the Marine Corp, gunnery, dive bombing, formation, carrier landings. And we just felt like let's go use this training we've got. See the world. FRANK BORING: Once you made the decision to go the three of you went to CAMCO and met with them what was the actual procedure of getting out of the military. Any difficulty there may not have had to actually join up with the AVG? JUDGE OLDER: Well, we did have difficulty getting out the Marine Corp for the AVG. The first step was to sign a contract with CAMCO then the second step was to put in an application or resignation thru the squadron. And that was turned down. And then it was sent up to the Group Headquarters and that was turned down. Their feeling in both the squadron and the group was just spent a lot of money training you guys to be fighter pilots and now we got you up to a state of readiness and we are not about to turn you lose. From there it went to Washington where it was approved by virtue of an executive order of President Roosevelt that he had signed permitting reserve qualified fighter pilots to resign to join the American Volunteer Group. We were not at war at that time we are �talking now 1941, spring of 1941. We were not at war there was a national emergency which had been imposed in September of 1940 and you couldn't get out of the service without a release or without being allowed to get out. It wasn't a question of just resigning, you had to get the permission from Washington. FRANK BORING: How did you feel about fighting under the flag of a foreign government? JUDGE OLDER: Well, we weren't fighting under the flag of a foreign government. We were an independent group, civilian group, operating independently, but under the Chinese were supplying our housing and our supplies that, but the operational control was totally independent and in the hands of General Chennault who was our commander. FRANK BORING: Once it was approved from Washington what was the reaction of let's say the immediate circle of people that now knew you were leaving and what not and also to your commandant, did you have to check out with him? JUDGE OLDER: Well, I think all of our squadron mates were happy that we were able to do it. I think a lot of them would have liked to have gone with us, but couldn't because they were regular officers. I remember particularly the group operations officer was a Major Sandy Sanderson, old time pilot, great guy, and we had to go in and see him and this is when we were trying to get the permission and he listened to us without a chance of expression for a long time and while we explained to him why we wanted to go and what we were going to be doing and so on and just gave us a steely stare and when it was all over he stood up, put out his hand and said, boys I wish I was going with you. FRANK BORING: You mention in that that you were telling him why what you were going to be doing when you get there. What was actually told to you? What were you going to be doing when you arrived? �JUDGE OLDER: Well, we knew were going to be fighting the Japanese and that time the principal problem was keeping the Burma Road open because the Chinese had closed all the China ports. So that the only way that China could get supplies in was over the Burma Road, which started in Rangoon, Burma. FRANK BORING: I'm sorry I don't think you meant to say the Chinese, the Japanese were cutting off the Burma Road, the Japanese had cut off the Chinese ports. JUDGE OLDER: Oh, all right. FRANK BORING: All right. We'll just start from the very beginning. I'll just ask you the question again. What were you told that what you were going to be doing when you arrived in China? JUDGE OLDER: We were told that we would be flying P40 aircraft against the Japanese principally protecting the Burma Road from Japanese bombers and fighters. And the reason for that was because the Japanese had closed Chinese ports so the only supplies getting into China at that time were coming up from Rangoon, Burma over the Burma Road into western China. Of course the hump was not established at that time. The hump routes. FRANK BORING: Once you were checked out, if you will, finished with the military where was your first place that you went? Where was the first place you went to after you left the military? JUDGE OLDER: After I left. The first place that I went to after I left Quantico was Los Angeles, my home and that happened also to be the place where we were going to pick up the ship to take us over to China. We were around Los Angeles for about a month and then finally went down to Wilmington and got on the Zaandam, which was a Dutch cargo liner, passenger, cargo ship. �FRANK BORING: Let's stay in Los Angeles for a second. Did you have family there? JUDGE OLDER: Yes, my family lived there. FRANK BORING: Ok. Could you tell us what had you told your family about what you were going to be doing? JUDGE OLDER: Well, I told my family with the exception of my brother, my younger brother, I told my family that we were going to China to be flight instructors. I didn't want to tell them I was going to be in combat because it would simply cause a lot of unnecessary worry. I did tell my brother that I was going to be a fighter pilot, fighting the Japanese, and I said if I'm lucky enough to get any of them, I'll write home and call them pigeons. That I shot a pigeon. That was our little code. Well, actually Pearl Harbor came along before we got into combat there was no more necessity for the pigeon code word. FRANK BORING: Once you left Los Angeles did you stop over in San Francisco? JUDGE OLDER: No, from Los Angeles. We left Los Angeles and went directly to Honolulu. From Honolulu to the Philippines, from Philippines to Borneo, then Java. We changed ships in Batavia, which is now Jakarta, and went up to Singapore and then we took a train from Singapore to Kuala Lumpur and bus out to a little port called Port Swettenham and we got on a small British freighter and took a nine day sail up to Rangoon. FRANK BORING: Let's talk a bit about the trip itself. At this point you had met some of the people that you were going to become very close friends with later on in your life. What was your first impression on meeting this gang of guys from all over the country? You were all going there to for basically the same kind of reasons. What was your reaction? �JUDGE OLDER: Well, they were a great bunch of guys. I liked them. You know you feel that comradery of a group all going the same direction for the same purpose and that's what we were doing. We were all volunteers, in other words, nobody was making us go there. We all went there because we wanted to go there. And that makes for a very close knit organization. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Older_Judge_1991-04-26_v01 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Charles Older Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-26 Title A name given to the resource Charles Older interview (video and transcript, 1 of 7), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Charles Older by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Charles Older trained as a pilot in Long Beach and Pensacola, earning his Navy wings in 1940. He then served in the Marine Fighting Squadron One and was qualified in gunnery, dive bombing, and carrier landings. Older joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in August 1941 and sailed to Burma. He served as a Flight Leader for the 3rd Squadron "Hell's Angels," and participated in the squadron's first combat over Rangoon where he downed two enemy aircraft. By the time the AVG disbanded in 1942, he had 10 total victories. After leaving the AVG, Older joined the US Army Air Forces and returned to China in 1944 with the 23rd Fighter Group. After the war, Older left the Air Force as a Lt. Col. and earned a law degree from the University of Southern California. He practiced law until becoming a superior court judge for Los Angeles. In the 1970s, he gained notoriety for presiding over the Charles Manson murder trials. In this tape, Older discusses his background that led him to becoming a pilot, his cadet training in Pensacola, and later joining the American Volunteer Group. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/406bad4cf4ff604cdc460e9375b89137.mp4 983fb6b349ec2cfe1241fcb331da0dec https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ccfa4b3fac39eb59bc3026ae54d90403.pdf 99f667f57b5e24faab5ad57071771aca PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Charles “Judge” Older Date of interview: April 26, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 2] FRANK BORING: What was your reaction to meeting this bunch of guys from all over the country? How did you react to that? JUDGE OLDER: Well, it was in Los Angeles when I first met the group that was going on our ship to Burma. They were a great bunch of guys. They were from all three of the services, Marine Corp, Navy, at that time the Army Air Corp. We were all volunteers, we all knew why we were there. We all wanted to be there. We were all going in the same direction for the same purpose it was a very close knit organization. FRANK BORING: There was, at the time, implied to you that this trip was supposed to be kept secret, somewhat. Your passports shows you to be some rather creative occupations. Wonder if you could comment on that? JUDGE OLDER: Yes, we all had to have passports. My passport said I was a writer. The other passports all indicated strange occupations that had nothing to do with being a fighter pilots or members of ground crews and it was secret mission at time. And this was before Pearl Harbor. We left the States, I left, I think it was August 26, 1941 from Wilmington. There was some problem in Honolulu about some of the people talking in a bar. I don't know what it was they were alleged to have said. As we pulled out of Honolulu late one afternoon, headed for the Philippines a couple of the ground crew, �I think jumped off the back of the boat and the Coast Guard had to come out and pick them out and deliver them back to the boat. I don't know what they thought they'd left in Honolulu, but that was a strange incident that I never did learn the reason for. FRANK BORING: What was the trip over like? I mean in terms of the routine, in terms of fellow passengers, in terms of friendship you may have made at that time. JUDGE OLDER: Well, I was rooming, the cabin that I was in I was with Frank Swartz. FRANK BORING: We have to wait for Jake. JUDGE OLDER: Was he getting in the picture? FRANK BORING: No, No scratching. I think we hurt his feeling. JUDGE OLDER: No, no he's all right. FRANK BORING: Give us an idea of what it was like to be on the boat? Any of the friendship you may have formed. The fellow passengers other than AVG and incidences that might have happened. JUDGE OLDER: There were six on the boat, six AVG pilots: Tom Haywood, Kenny Jernstedt, myself, Frank Swartz, Bill Bartling and Johnny Farrell. I knew all of them except Bartling and Farrell before. Even though Bartling went to Pensacola, I don't think I had ever met him before. Farrell was from the Army Air Corp. The rest were ground crew, there were also some passengers. There was a group of missionaries going back to the Far East including two young missionary daughters, they were French, French missionaries. We got to know these people fairly well. Oh, probably no more than 3 or 4 other passengers that I can remember outside of the missionary group. And we had a lot of fun. We spent most of the day out in the deck chairs reading books, I remember I was reading �Inside Asia by John Gunther to try to get a little background on Southeast Asia. Other than that it was just lazy days in the sun crossing the ocean. The nights were interesting because we were running blacked out and occasionally they would sight another ship off somewhere and had no way of knowing whether it was even though we were not yet at war, the news reports that we were getting indicated that the Japanese were sending about 20,000 troops a week into Indo-China. We knew they weren't going down there to for a picnic and it was just a question of time before that erupted in that area. So everybody was of course Japan was a member of the axis powers, along with Germany and Italy and even though Japan was not at war at that moment except with China, everybody was concern with what could happen. So the ship ran blacked out and it was zig zag occasionally when it spotted another ship, but other than that there were no incidents. FRANK BORING: How about the stopovers in various places? Did you get a chance to go ashore? JUDGE OLDER: Oh, yes, we had a great day in Honolulu. Kenny Jernstedt, Tom Haywood and I rented a car some nice lady was the driver and drove us around Oahu. We had a couple of days or more in Manilla. Interesting town, city, big city. FRANK BORING: I guess what I am looking for is that you are an American, grew up in America, gone to the Far East for adventures and everything, what was the first impression with coming into an Asian country? What was is there a culture shock involved? Was there something very exciting about it? If you could just describe what it was like to first arrive on Asian shores. JUDGE OLDER: Well, I'd say it was very exciting, colorful. I was impressed with the tremendous number of people in many of these places and the strange customs they had the strange way doing things. Very exciting. �FRANK BORING: What would you say amongst this trip before you arrived at your destination, which one was the one that stuck out the most. JUDGE OLDER: I think the most exciting place on the trip over was Singapore. Because it was one of the great British colony cities, one of crossroads of the world. Of course the famous Raffles Hotel was in full sway at that time. It was a very interesting place. FRANK BORING: Can you tell us more about the Raffles Hotel. JUDGE OLDER: Well, the Raffles, they had a big bar which was as you walked into the place they had the cocktail bar type of thing that we think of in the States, but it was a large room that did have a bar, but many tables and very tropical looking type of atmosphere. The Hotel itself was very nice. It was just about everything you would expect to see having read about it, you know, was glamorous place. A lot of interesting, glamorous people staying there. FRANK BORING: I guess what we are looking for one person with a dream or idea is one thing but when you get two close buddies to talk about it just seems to grow. The excitement grows and it makes it even more real. Three guys, but when we interviewed Ken it really came out that there was this really close friendship being bonded at the time which lead to talk about it, what was the sense of excitement, somehow communicate that sense of excitement. JUDGE OLDER: Excuse me, but are we talking about on the trip over or— FRANK BORING: Yeah, that's when you guys had a lot to time to talk, right? and to I'm not talking about once you arrived there, I guess I'm looking for that beginning stages of friendship developing and the types of things you talked about because that will lead us into what you actually found when you got there. JUDGE OLDER: Well, my closest friends on the trip going over of course were Tom Haywood and Kenny Jernstedt because we all served together in �the Marine Fighter Squadron since leaving Pensacola. I guess we probably spent the most time together on the ship because of that. We talked frequently on the ship about where we were going and what it was going to look like and what we were going to be doing, and what kinds of aircraft the Japs were flying, what kind of facilities the AVG would have, where we would be based, terrain. I remember talking about what I had read in Gunther's book that about the snakes in Southeast Asia, the cobras, and the crates, and the Russells vipers. You know all this was very exciting and glamorous. I think I read that there were over 20,000 people a year killed by snake bites in South East Asia which seemed incredible to me. But I think that number was not far off when you take in all of the countries in South East Asia. And we also when we got to Burma, Toungoo had a show put on for us by some snake charmers, King Cobras, which was extremely interesting. FRANK BORING: So you had a chance to talk the three of you about what you expected. Could you now describe for us what you actually found when you arrived in Burma. JUDGE OLDER: We arrived in Rangoon I think it was October 8th or 10th and it was a bustling port. Rangoon doesn't sit right on the Bay of Bengal you have to go up I think the Rangoon River for about 40 miles which is a very wide river like an estuary. Then you finally come to the big city of Rangoon, and it is a large city, very exotic. The thing you see about Rangoon from about 40 miles away is great Shwedagon Pagoda. Which is the largest pagoda in the world I believe. It's gold covered and supposedly encrusted with jewels at the top and that stands out like a beacon as you're coming up the river into Rangoon. Then we started having the ship unloaded and I can remember I had a trunk, a small trunk, but very heavy. I had everything in it including some guns and ammunition, clothes and everything. I could hardly lift one end of it. These three fellows came aboard and two of the large fellows picked this truck up and they set it on the back of this kind of old wizened man, Burmese man, and he grabbed it over his shoulder , the handles and �staggered off the boat with this trunk of mine. I remember really feeling sorry for this fellow. Well, then we checked into the Strand Hotel , that was a very nice hotel, right on very close to the water. And spent a few days there some of the people came down from Toungoo. One of my classmates at Pensacola, Noel Bacon came down and I asked him what we could expect up there and he told us a few of the things. One of things that always stuck out in my mind he described of course Chennault and Harvey Greenlaw, who was the executive officer and he described Olga Greenlaw who was Harvey's wife I think she was part Russian. He described her as being very glamorous so forth and at one point I asked him I said, Noel, what kind of a gal is this Olga and he thought for a minute and then he said well, she's the kind of a woman who would make a dog break its chain. I didn't know what he had in mind it was a very picturesque description. And she was an unusual woman. FRANK BORING: Where was your next stop then? JUDGE OLDER: After a few days in Rangoon we got on a train and headed for Toungoo which is about 120 miles northeast of Rangoon. Rained the entire trip. All I saw was flooded rice paddies and rain out the train window. I was beginning to think I should have gone into seaplanes instead of fighters. We finally got into Toungoo in the early evening and they had gathered together a little native band about a 6 piece band that was standing on station as we got off the train and they were playing, "There will be a hot time in the old town tonight". Of course all the people on the base were down there to welcome us. It was a very joyful welcome. Then we proceed over to our base at, this little RAF airfield, which is called Kyedaw. Checked into our barracks and there we were. FRANK BORING: Let's take a look at the barracks at the first time you saw it. You talked about what to except when you got there and perhaps had some advance notice. What did you feel like the first time you walked into those barracks? �JUDGE OLDER: I felt like I was in the tropics. The barracks were... the first time I got into the barracks I felt like I was in the tropics, for sure. Because of the way they were constructed for one thing. They were kind of bamboo and thatch and heavy thatch roof and bamboo rafters and studs and so forth and wood floor. Beds were lined up on both sides with an aisle down the middle. Everybody had a big mosquito net which was folded up on top in the day time and dropped down at night because no one would think about sleeping without a mosquito net at night. Now just to keep the mosquito out, but to keep out some of the other things that were crawling around. As a matter of fact at night you could take a flashlight when the lights were out and flash it up into the pointed roof and see the light reflecting off eyes of all the things that were up there. When you went out to the latrine or outside for anything you'd take a ball, bat or a stick with you. One of the other squadrons I think they killed a cobra in the shower and I ran over a crate one night on my bicycle coming back from the movie theatre to the barracks. It was not a place to wander around by yourself at night without a light and something to strike back with. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Older_Judge_1991-04-26_v02 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Charles Older Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-26 Title A name given to the resource Charles Older interview (video and transcript, 2 of 7), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Charles Older by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Charles Older trained as a pilot in Long Beach and Pensacola, earning his Navy wings in 1940. He then served in the Marine Fighting Squadron One and was qualified in gunnery, dive bombing, and carrier landings. Older joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in August 1941 and sailed to Burma. He served as a Flight Leader for the 3rd Squadron "Hell's Angels," and participated in the squadron's first combat over Rangoon where he downed two enemy aircraft. By the time the AVG disbanded in 1942, he had 10 total victories. After leaving the AVG, Older joined the US Army Air Forces and returned to China in 1944 with the 23rd Fighter Group. After the war, Older left the Air Force as a Lt. Col. and earned a law degree from the University of Southern California. He practiced law until becoming a superior court judge for Los Angeles. In the 1970s, he gained notoriety for presiding over the Charles Manson murder trials. In this tape, Older describes his experience meeting the other members of the AVG, their journey overseas to Rangoon, and the train ride to their barracks in Toungoo. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3f17957150064f7a35ccfb4bb947d356.mp4 76d0ca9a0f077bf2a10b137b0e06fd6e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c0b3c5afa85a468b82c04e278a35824c.pdf 695a615e19ed4a6c3e039d60bca4423e PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Charles “Judge” Older Date of interview: April 26, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 3] FRANK BORING: Would you tell us about the person you was eventually known as Fearless Freddie? JUDGE OLDER: One of my barracks mates in the 3rd Squadron was Fred Hodges who early acquired the name of Fearless Freddie because of his great fear of insects or anything that crawled. And Burma was the wrong place to be for Fearless Freddie I can tell you that. One night when we were coming back from the mess hall, a couple of us decided that we would exploit the insect life of Burma at Freddie's expense by taking a one of their June bugs which is about the size of a golf ball and tying a string around its leg and hanging it down from the wire that holds the mosquito netting up on his bed. Of course we went back first and he was still there, at the mess hall, so we got in a turned the lights out and waited to see what would happen. Freddie came in and started to get undressed in the dark and this June bug kept hitting him in the face and he didn't know what it was and he just kind of brushed it out of the way. Finally he got a flashlight and he flashed the light on this thing, well, he went crazy. He ran over and got a ball bat in the corner started yelling, well, he almost tore the barracks down trying to kill that June bug. (laughter) �FRANK BORING: If we could now go into, after the first night give us an idea of what your first duties were. First routine that started to settle in, idea of what the camp was like, the base was like, and who you met at that time. JUDGE OLDER: The Toungoo base consisted of a number of separate buildings, the barracks, each squadron had a different barracks. There was separate mess hall, there was a separate dispensary or minor hospital. Of course there were the hangers down on the flight line or one hanger actually. This was a little RAF base that they had turned over to us for our use. Our first routine, course outside of sleeping and eating, was to go to ground school. There we got the operational manuals for the P40 and some data on the specs of the P40 before we checked out because none of the Marines of course had flown P40. They didn't have P40 in the Marine Corps and I don't think most of the other AVG pilots had ever flown a P40 some of them may have a few of them. So that was the first order of business was get checked out in the airplane. And the second order of business was the morning ground school that Chennault gave every morning after breakfast starting at about something like 7 in the morning. Where he would give us all of his knowledge that he had acquired about the Japanese Air Force during the last five years that he had been in China. And he, from time to time, would bring in Chinese Air Force pilots that had fought against the Japanese and we would get their first hand impressions of the Japanese aircraft and tactics, the good points the bad points. Chennault had obtained from somewhere captured Japanese aircraft I guess the operational manuals for many of their aircraft and even some of their strategic plans in general. So we spent our time learning as much of this as we could and of course he would lecture to us on his theories of air combat, fighter tactics and so on. FRANK BORING: Let's go back to the first time you actually encountered Chennault. The first time you saw him. Would you give us your first impressions of what he looked like to you? �JUDGE OLDER: Well, the first time I saw Chennault I don't recall now exactly where in Toungoo it was, it could have been in the mess hall early one morning, or maybe it was the ground school. But I was immediately impressed with his physical appearance. Because he had one of the most rugged lookin' faces you'll ever see on an individual. In fact I think it was Winston Churchill saw Chennault somewhere at one their meetings and his remark was "I'm glad he's on our side." And that just exactly the impression that you got when you saw him, he was just a rugged lookin' guy and his face was weather-beaten. It looked like it had been hanging out of a cockpit in the slipstream for the last 20 years. It was like a piece of leather. He had dark piercing eyes, very friendly, but extremely determined appearance. Absolutely dedicated to defeating the Japanese. That came thru after you'd talked to him for a few minutes. There was no doubt about where he was and where he was going. FRANK BORING: You had already been thru a great deal of pilot training, you'd gone thru all the different steps where you could have faltered at any time, but you graduated. You made it all the way out there. I'd like your evaluation from the student's point of view if you will or the experience pilot point of view of Chennault as teacher he was telling you different tactics about the Japanese and different tactics that perhaps you had heard before. What was your evaluation, did you have any confidence in this man that he was going to be able to teach you something that you were going to need to know. JUDGE OLDER: Yes, I had a great deal of confidence in General Chennault's ability to teach us fighter tactics and to teach us about the Japanese. Two things you needed to know in addition to being able to handle your own airplane. The first thing he did, or one of the first things he did was to get us away from the old three plane formation that we had been flying in the States and get us into 2 plane elements and 6 plane flights. The reason for this was to increase the flexibility, instead of flying tight formation you had elements of two planes where they were, the wing man was out a bit so he had some �flexibility of movement and the elements were staggered back, one on each side of the lead element and with the idea that the rear element would probably be the what we called the tail end Charlie and weave back and forth. Of course everybody had to keep their eyes open for the enemy that was number one. But usually you'd like to have a weaver element back there to do a little more looking. So that was a novel introduction to combat formation that we hadn't had before and I think everybody agreed that that was a big improvement over what we had been doing in the States. FRANK BORING: Could you also elaborate to us about another technique he talked about rather than dogfighting with the Japanese airplane there was a technique of going up to I believe it is 20,000 feet and coming down. How did you react to that? Could you explain that to us? JUDGE OLDER: I don't know what you're talking about. FRANK BORING: OK the traditional method of fighting as I understood it at that point was just to dogfight ‘em. JUDGE OLDER: Of course Chennault taught us the respective characteristics of our aircraft and the Japanese aircraft. And of course we found out first hand after flying our P40 what the characteristics were of them. One of the things that he stressed was don't try to get into a turning combat with the Japs fighters because they could turn way inside of you and they are more maneuverable Our number one advantage was first speed, the ability to get up high and to make the Japs fight our way. Use the strong points of the P40 to select the methods of combat rather than letting the Japanese decide how the combat was going to be fought. So these were all things we worked on and all made sense and worked out as it turned out when we did get into combat. FRANK BORING: Let's go into the actual training period now where the different pilots were checking out on the P40. Could you give any comments from your own perspective of your own ability to deal �with the P40 and perhaps your observation of what was going on with the other pilots. JUDGE OLDER: When we checked out on the P40 at Toungoo I found that it was a good airplane, I liked the P40, it was a good airplane. Of course everything has to placed into the context of its times. It wasn't as good as the P51, but there weren't any P-51's then. They didn't come out until a couple of years later. It had you can always use more power, but it had adequate power. It had good speed, we could get it up to about 27,000 which was adequate. It was reasonably maneuverable, it was very rugged, could have used more fight power. The early P-40B's only had two 50 calibers and four 30 calibers in the wings. Two 50's in the nose and four in the wings, 30 calibers in the wings and the 30's were virtually useless. The 50 calibers would be the guns that did damage. Later on of course the P51 had six 50 calibers machine guns, three in each wing and a P47 had eight, four in each wing. FRANK BORING: Stop here. Do you need some water? JUDGE OLDER: Yeah, that wouldn't be a bad idea. FRANK BORING: You've gone into the characteristics of the P40 what I'm looking for now is your first experience with flying it and then your observation of how the other pilots were dealing with the P40. Do you see what I'm trying to get at? It's more in terms of the airplane you [?] flying it and then watching how the other guys were doing? Because some of them didn't handle it very well, there was some crashes and at one time as I understand it Chennault even got very upset grounded everybody. Because he said he thought you should go back to school and learn how to use these things. JUDGE OLDER: I can remember my first flight in the P40 very well because you always remember the first flight in any airplane--it's strange, it's different, you're not sure what the feels going to be and it takes a while to get used to it. I liked the P40 very much. It handled very �well. The most difficult part was on the landing, roll, where you had to be on your toes every minute to keep it under control down the runway and not end up in a ground loop. Unfortunately, a number of the pilots who had not been familiar with fighters and some it turned out had never flown fighters before had trouble with the P40. Mostly because of a tendency to ground loop and let it get away from them on the landings. So you had to be very careful on that. I didn't see any bad characteristics at all. FRANK BORING: Let's look at the daily life, if you will, during this period of time. Part of the time you're flying as you said there is eating there is sleeping of course. I guess we are looking for some of other aspects. How did you get around? Did you have jeeps? Did you have trucks? How was the daily life? JUDGE OLDER: Our mode of transportation at Toungoo for the individual, was bicycles. There were a few automobiles, staff cars, maybe a jeep or two, but mostly it was just bicycles. We bought the bicycles in town, in Toungoo, and another standard item for everybody at Toungoo were boots. Leather boots. We'd go into town and they had a very simple method of fitting you. You put your foot down on a piece of paper and draw around it with a pencil and got a perfect fit for your custom made boot. Bicycles were used for everything. FRANK BORING: What was the food like, conditions, what did you do for entertainment? What did you do to relax? These sorts of things. JUDGE OLDER: Our entertainment at Toungoo consisted mostly of athletics in the afternoon when it was too hot to fly. We did most of our flying in the morning because by 11 o'clock in the morning the wing of that airplane was hot enough to fry an egg on. It just got too hot after that. And in the afternoon we played baseball, later in the afternoon it cooled down a little bit, baseball, badminton, playing cards, cribbage, poker, red dog anything that happened to come up. That was about it. There really wasn't, we'd take little side trips �out. I remember one trip we took out to I guess it is the Sittang River which is east of Toungoo out into the jungle. And it was very interesting. I saw some elephants out there carrying logs, teak logs. And we took little side trips into Toungoo and bicycle up and down the road this way and that way. FRANK BORING: Where there any people there that stuck out particularly? You mentioned earlier that you had heard about Olga Greenlaw, there was also the doctor, nurses there? JUDGE OLDER: Yes, we had two doctors and a dentist and two nurses. They were all great people and of course we got to know them very well because we were all living in close proximity there in Toungoo. FRANK BORING: Was there anybody that stuck out the people that you like, dislike or example Harvey Greenlaw was some people had very strong opinions about. I'm just wondering if you could comment on some of the people. JUDGE OLDER: Harvey Greenlaw was the executive officer and he had I believe he was a West Point officer if I remember correctly. He had gotten out of the service one way or another I forgot now what his career had been in between. But he ended up as the executive officer of the AVG. He was a very likeable guy. He had he was controversially in some respects I think some of the people didn't care for him too much, but I always liked him. And I mentioned his wife, Olga, before. She was a very interesting gal nice looking gal. I think she was either Russian or part Russian. They were a strange couple, they were very unlike each other. I remember one story they tell about Olga and Harvey they were in India someplace I think, I think it was in Delhi one time having one of their usual martial disputes and they came to the top of this marble staircase and Olga just nudged Harvey with her foot down this marble stair case. But most of time they seemed to get along. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Older_Judge_1991-04-26_v03 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Charles Older Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-26 Title A name given to the resource Charles Older interview (video and transcript, 3 of 7), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Charles Older by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Charles Older trained as a pilot in Long Beach and Pensacola, earning his Navy wings in 1940. He then served in the Marine Fighting Squadron One and was qualified in gunnery, dive bombing, and carrier landings. Older joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in August 1941 and sailed to Burma. He served as a Flight Leader for the 3rd Squadron "Hell's Angels," and participated in the squadron's first combat over Rangoon where he downed two enemy aircraft. By the time the AVG disbanded in 1942, he had 10 total victories. After leaving the AVG, Older joined the US Army Air Forces and returned to China in 1944 with the 23rd Fighter Group. After the war, Older left the Air Force as a Lt. Col. and earned a law degree from the University of Southern California. He practiced law until becoming a superior court judge for Los Angeles. In the 1970s, he gained notoriety for presiding over the Charles Manson murder trials. In this tape, Older discusses his first duties at their base in Toungoo, in addition to his first impressions of General Chennault and his training methods. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bdf513e82be4d121a96714a1fff724c9.mp4 d5eb17dccd57734967143167a8ec3f09 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f923239a210bd1c8641e7636af5e1492.pdf 6830159a76308083191c4205e9cba822 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Charles “Judge” Older Date of interview: April 26, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 4] FRANK BORING: At this point if we could talk about the training from a different perspective. See the crashes and perhaps the injuries and fatalities what kind of effect that had on you? JUDGE OLDER: By the time I arrived in Rangoon two of the pilots had already been killed in an accident. I think it was in one accident, I'm not sure. I think it was a mid-air collision. And one was killed while I was at Toungoo - that was Pete Atkinson. He was up on an early morning test flight went into a dive and from about 10,000 feet the Curtis Electric propeller ran away and it just I never heard such a horrible sound come out of an engine airplane as that one was. And it finally just blew engine up and he went straight in. I did know Pete, but not well he was in one of the other squadrons. I just knew him as an acquaintance. Well, it has a very strong effect on you and it certainly made me realize that I didn't want to put a P40 in that situation where that could happen. FRANK BORING: Once the training was over with what's the next stage, what was the next step that you took? Where did you go? JUDGE OLDER: The next thing that happened at Toungoo as our training there was pretty much completed and we were about to be sent up to China. I went up one day on a test flight and when I came back down I saw a group of people huddled together talking over by the hanger. I �got out of the airplane wandered over there and I began to pick up fragments of conversation about Pearl Harbor, Japanese, and I couldn't understand what they were talking about. I finally got one of them aside I said what's going on, he said the Japs have attack Pearl Harbor. FRANK BORING: We're going to have to start -- I liked that whole approach that you had the beginning was very good. Test plane, then landing and seeing the huddle that's very good. Begin from the beginning. JUDGE OLDER: After we had trained in Toungoo for a couple of months now we're talking about early December, first week in December. I was up on a test flight and when I came back down and landed taxied up and parked it I noticed a group of people standing over by the hanger talking. Looked kind of unusual, I never saw any groups like that before standing and talking like that before. So I went over there and I started picking up fragments of conversation Pearl Harbor, Japanese and other things. So I got one of the people aside and said what's going on? What are you talking about? They said the Japs have just attacked Pearl Harbor. Well, of course, that changed everything. We suppose to, our squadron, the 3rd squadron, was supposed to go on up to Kunming, China with the other two squadrons. After December 7th, which was December 8th in Burma, they decided to send the 3rd squadron to Rangoon and send the other two squadrons up to Kunming. So in due course we went down to Rangoon. I think we probably got down there somewhere around the 20th of December? FRANK BORING: What did you find when you arrived there? Not just the atmosphere the other, pilots, crew, what was the mood like? JUDGE OLDER: The mood was one of great anticipation. We anticipated that we were going to be getting into combat very shortly we were considered about the lack warning, we were concerned about the size of the enemy force what it might be and the composition of it. We were working with the British there, the British RAF had a �squadron of Brewster Buffalos and they had a squadron of Hurricanes. We didn't know exactly how we would be working with them in air combat if at all whether they would be operating separately or what the situation would be so it was a period of great anticipation. FRANK BORING: Now thru that entire time period, December, the anticipation was building but nothing actually broke until I believe around the 23rd. Could you tell us about the day when things really started to happen? JUDGE OLDER: Well, the first alert we got at Rangoon occurred about the 21st or 22nd I believe. It turned out that it was a false alert, but everybody would scramble off and it was a melee in the air, because it was the first time thing were pretty well disorganized and we ended up scaring each other I think more than the enemy would have scared us, by near misses, mid-air collisions and everything else. It was just, you know, the first time and we didn't know what to expect, we didn't where they were coming from, we didn't know how many there would be, if they did come and so on. We had a good session afterwards, debriefing on the ground about how now to kill each other. So when the first real alert came, which was on December 23rd, we were much more prepared for it. It so happened I had the day off on that day with Ed Overend and we had planned bicycle into Rangoon and look around and do some shopping and as we were bicycling off the base we heard the engines starting up and first we heard the RAF go off and then we heard the P-40's go off. I turned to Ed and I said Ed, there's something going on. Let's get back there. So we went back to the field and there were just 2 P-40's sitting on the field and nobody around that I could see. We bicycled over there and found a crew man and said what's wrong with these airplanes, he said, nothing. I said, Ed let's go flying. So we jumped in the P-40's and headed east and got out to about 8,000 feet we finally joined up with a flight turned out it was a flight that McMillan, George McMillan was leading and there were only 4 in that flight so we joined up with �that flight. We got up to about 8,000 feet and still going east toward the Gulf of Martaban. I looked up ahead and at about 11,000 I could see this huge formation. It looked to me like a huge formation of twin engines bombers and up behind that maybe another 1,000 feet or so looked like about 20 or 30 fighters maneuvering around. It was hard to believe at first, here they are, this is the enemy. You don't have to wait any longer, they're here. So, we started making attacks we had an altitude disadvantage of about 3,000 feet so we had to climb up and they were heading into toward Mingaladon, this particular group. Turns out there was another group down sough going into Rangoon. I decided the best way to attack before they got to the airfield probably the only way to attack before they got to the airfield because of our altitude disadvantage was to climb up directly underneath the formation and try to stay out of the range of their bottom guns by coming in sharply, steeply, underneath and making the attacks that way and then going diving out to the side and coming back and doing the same thing again. So that's what I did. I got the leader of the formation of this particular 27 plane formation. I saw the bomb bay doors open as I was underneath. So I knew they were getting close they were on their initial point for their bomb run. And on this particular pass that I made it just blew the whole bottom out of the airplane, debris was showering down and I got out of the way and as he rolled over as the leader rolled over and went out the wing man on the right side just slide over and took the lead. It was just like mechanical precision. There was no delay, no confusion on the Japs parts they just continued on toward Mingaladon Airdrome. And then on another pass I got another one and by that time I was running low on ammunition and we got separated in the fight as usual and I came back and circled around awhile to see what was going on and finally came in and landed. They'd bombed the airfield the runway was full of holes. But there were places to land. FRANK BORING: That was excellent, that whole [?] talking with, heard this about the Japanese pilots before and this is what I found afterwards. �JUDGE OLDER: Yeah, Ok. JUDGE OLDER: I had heard in our training that the Japanese pilots were pretty mechanical in the sense that they always reacted pretty much the same way to a situation whether it called for it or not. I didn't really find that to be true, I think they were very well disciplined, particularly the bomber formations, but the fighters that I engaged later on other missions I found them to be very resourceful. They were good pilots and they made the most of what they had. FRANK BORING: How about before you were even trained? When you were in the States, when you were in the military for example, what was your impression about the Japanese Air Force at that time? JUDGE OLDER: When I was in the States before I went with the AVG I really didn't have any impression as to what kind pilots the Japanese were or what kind of aircraft they were flying except in a vague way. FRANK BORING: After that initial encounter in which you had shot down 2 bombers and the rest of the group came back what was the mood of the group, and ground crews as well as the pilots themselves. Specifically, you, as to that encounter? JUDGE OLDER: When I finally got back on the ground after the first fight, of course, I was looking around to see who else was there and who was missing, what damage had been done to the airfield. We still had a number of pilots that hadn't landed yet and I, of course, had no way of knowing what had happened to them, or whether they would return. Most of them did. Although the 3rd Squadron lost 2 pilots on that first mission, Neal Martin and Hank Gilbert. I was not in the flight they were in so I had no idea at that time what happened to them. I believe there were some other pilots missing that turned up later. I know Ed Overend was missing on either that or the next mission, Paul Green got shot down on that mission and bailed out. I understand from him that strafed him on the way down or tried to. So it was a scene of great tension and excitement, �wonder, and doubt as to outcome of a lot of these things when I finally got back on the ground. The British had suffered some severe losses, both in their aircraft and on the ground. They had been bombed pretty heavily, some people killed on the ground. So it was very tension-full day shall we say. FRANK BORING: How much did you rely on the training that Chennault had given you on that actually first combat? Did it come back to you or did. The actual training that you had how much did you rely on? JUDGE OLDER: We relied on Chennault's training in our combats I found that when you get into combat the best laid plans of mice and men don't always work out the way you start out. For one thing you usually get the formations broken up pretty quickly and you may still have your wing man with you but you may have lost the rest of the flight. Sometimes the wing man gets separated and you're on your own. And that happened in both the engagements at Rangoon. We started out in the six plane flights, two plane elements, but they were soon broken up because of the way combat developed. And I think that was true everywhere. So can't fly around in combat in formation. It's just not possible. But at least you can start out that way and get an advantage because of the way you've operated and were you are and your altitude, speed and so on. FRANK BORING: What were the next few days like towards the end of December into January? Were there any more encounters or…? JUDGE OLDER: Yes, the Japanese, I guess it was Tokyo Rose on the night of December 23rd after the first combat when we had shot down. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Older_Judge_1991-04-26_v04 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Charles Older Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-26 Title A name given to the resource Charles Older interview (video and transcript, 4 of 7), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Charles Older by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Charles Older trained as a pilot in Long Beach and Pensacola, earning his Navy wings in 1940. He then served in the Marine Fighting Squadron One and was qualified in gunnery, dive bombing, and carrier landings. Older joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in August 1941 and sailed to Burma. He served as a Flight Leader for the 3rd Squadron "Hell's Angels," and participated in the squadron's first combat over Rangoon where he downed two enemy aircraft. By the time the AVG disbanded in 1942, he had 10 total victories. After leaving the AVG, Older joined the US Army Air Forces and returned to China in 1944 with the 23rd Fighter Group. After the war, Older left the Air Force as a Lt. Col. and earned a law degree from the University of Southern California. He practiced law until becoming a superior court judge for Los Angeles. In the 1970s, he gained notoriety for presiding over the Charles Manson murder trials. In this tape, Older describes the effect the injuries and fatalities during AVG flight training and the news of Pearl Harbor had on him while preparing for combat. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f9a24cf8de1615a945ffdefa07c66dba.mp4 f7e3b029f34382e56e4a376cc2a24f64 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/42dce1bb37b774688e2e8081f5db3d8f.pdf f70d86e5fcef004e253976679cf524f6 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Charles “Judge” Older Date of interview: April 26, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 5] FRANK BORING: What happened? JUDGE OLDER: Oh, I don't know the only time I ever flew with Greg was one time we were going from Kunming to Loiwing, but the two of us. I don't remember the occasion when he left I just knew that he had left. FRANK BORING: How did you rate him as a pilot? JUDGE OLDER: Good pilot, yeah. I was always got along fine with Greg. But he was a mean mother when he got drunk. And I had learned early to stay away from him when he was like that. He was like a bull. That's when he got into all his troubles, you know, get half bombed and take on anybody. FRANK BORING: OK. Let's start off with the Christmas time right after this happened. Tokyo Rose something about Tokyo Rose. JUDGE OLDER: At Rangoon on evening of the 23rd, December 23rd, after our first combat the Tokyo radio came on, Tokyo Rose and said that, I forget how she described us, outlaw Americans, or some term like that, had been engaged by the Imperial Japanese Air Force over Rangoon that day and that she just wanted to inform the Americans that the Japanese would be back to drop them some Christmas �presents two days later on Christmas Day. True to her word they were. That was our second alert and we had 13 airplanes in the air that day. One flight of seven and one flight of six. That's my recollection. Could have been a couple more plus the RAF had their aircraft I don't remember exactly how many. The Japs came over with bigger bomber formations this time they did make a switch. Instead of coming in from the East they went around, at least the formation that attack Mingaladon, went around to the south and came in from the west. So they didn't like what they found when they were bombing the first time. When they ran into AVG. So this way at least they'd be headed home after the dropped their bombs. Tom Haywood was flying on my wing that day. We met them at particularly the same level, but several miles apart. They were coming in from the west and he were heading east, south of them. We turned into them and couldn't make any head on passes the situation didn't allow that. We had to dive down and come up underneath again. Tom and I stayed together pretty closely for the first few passes. Each of us got a couple of bombers. They were dropping like flies. They were rolling out of the formation, wings coming off, blowing up. It was a scene of like something out of hell. We'd follow them down some of them and then come back up and attack again. Eventually we got separated and I decided I would head out east toward the Gulf of Martaban to see if I could pick up anybody going home. Because I still had gas, and I still had ammunition. Up ahead I spotted a Jap fighter and I was sure that he would see me so I came up from underneath him expecting any minute that he was going to do a snap turn and be after me, but he didn't. I let him have one long burst he started down, started smoking, went down the long wide spiral. We were up about 15,000, 10,000. Finally saw one wing come off and then he went into the Gulf of Martaban. Then on the way back to the base I saw another fighter up ahead of me and I thought it looked like it was a Hurricane- RAF. But I made the same kind of approach on him just to make sure for identification. I came underneath right like this and then slid out to one side and I was flying on formation before he saw me. And he turned around and �the first time he saw me and did a double take that almost took his head off because I was flying right on his wing. I think I taught him a lesson. Anyway, it was a big day we got 25 Japs fighters and bombers that day. The RAF got some. We didn't lose anybody that day. Although we did lose an airplane or two but the pilots were saved. JUDGE OLDER: You asked me how I felt after I shot down an enemy aircraft. Well, at the time you are so busy you don't have much time to be thinking about that. You're thinking about keeping from getting shot down yourself. FRANK BORING: Referring to my question then we can't use them. Just say the first time the way I felt the first time I ever shot down an airplane something on that instead of asking the question. JUDGE OLDER: I wondered how I would feel the first time I shot down an enemy aircraft. As it turns out you're so busy in combat trying to keep from getting shot down yourself that you don't really have time to think about it until later. I mean just briefly in passing when that big bomber rolled out that I shot down on the first day and headed down, the one that blew the bomb bay out, I wondered first how many Japanese were aboard, I wondered what their rank were because I thought this being the leader of the formation and the first time they had ever hit Rangoon they may well have had a high ranking officer up there, just either piloting the aircraft or along for the ride to see what happened. And those are the kind of things you wonder about. When I shot down the fighter the first time, the one I came up underneath and got without any response from him. I just wondered, you know, who he was, where he came from, what he would have done if the situation had been reversed. I think I knew that answer. I also wondered if he was Japanese or Korean because we had heard that a lot of the pilots in the Japanese Air Force were Korean's. Those are all things you wonder about. I felt sorry for him in a way, but on the other hand I knew that if the �situation was reversed he'd be shooting me down. It was one of those him or me situations. FRANK BORING: Stop for a second. JUDGE OLDER: So when Ford says in his book that later designate Jap retractable landing gear fighters. FRANK BORING: Without referring to Ford. JUDGE OLDER: Why not? FRANK BORING: Well because that would be outside the realm of record what you actually thought and why. We can't reference The Maverick War Shultz, Ford or whatever what we are trying to get. It doesn't matter what he wrote. We don't want to give any credit to Ford or anybody else. FRANK BORING: All set? If you could explain to us the kind of planes that you fought and the names of what those planes were. JUDGE OLDER: The bombers that we fought were primarily Sally’s, what they called Sally’s. It was a twin engine bomber. I don't really know, I've forgotten the specs now of it. But it was a pretty good bomber. Had a top gun, bottom gun, nose gun. Reasonably fast. I don't know what the bomb load was but it was a pretty good bomber. As to the fighters. At the start of the war it seemed that the term zero was a generic term used at least among our people, I don't know where it came from, to describe any Japanese retractable landing gear fighter. But a little later on we hardly I don't think we ever referred to them as zeros. We called them, each airplane had a specific name, like there were Oscars - that was a Jap fighter, a good one. Hamps, was a squared tipped wing, squared wind tip fighter. They had a very fast reconnaissance, I shot one of those down. We called it an I45. That was as fast as a P40. Twin engine and had good altitude. �FRANK BORING: Let's move on from the first few raids. At this point had you could tell us what happened after you left Rangoon and why you? Rangoon. JUDGE OLDER: Well, Chennault rotated the squadrons from Kunming to Rangoon and our third squadron was sent up to Kunming and one of the other squadrons came down to relieve us from Rangoon. Kunming was an entirely different place than Rangoon. It is not tropical it is on the high Yunnan Plateau. At an altitude of about 6400 feet. And in the winter it is cold. Big base there, and training school and we were on alert all the time because of the threat of Japanese bombers attacking Kunming as they had before. In January the Japs sent a flight of 3 Sally’s up from Indo-China probably Hanoi and one of our flights scrambled to get them. I was in that flight and we went down South to a place called Mengzi. In the vicinity of Mengzi where we encountered them coming north and we attack them and I got the leader of that flight and we shared the victory credits on the other two. FRANK BORING: What was the routine if you will like after that. Was that the only encounter you had over the next month or so? JUDGE OLDER: Yes, then in February the 3rd squadron was sent down to Loiwing which is in Burma, but it is on the China-Burma border. It's about 60 miles north of Lashio, Burma. It sits in a valley surrounded by some pretty good mountains, had just a dirt airstrip, but it was adequate, in fact two of them. It was kind of an X shaped field, but we only used one of them for landing and take-offs. We had a lot of good action at Loiwing. FRANK BORING: Let's hold in for a second. Is that making too much noise. It is now. FRANK BORING: If you could tell us about some of the incidents that happened around the Loiwing area. �JUDGE OLDER: Loiwing was the site of a little aircraft factory that Central Aircraft Manufacturing Company had. They weren't doing anything at that time, but they had previously just assembled aircraft for the Chinese. And there was clubhouse up on the hill which had a dining hall in it. We lived in, I don't really recall very much about the places we lived. They were adequate. The airfield was good. One of the problems with Loiwing is, as time went on, the Chinese warning net disintegrated as the Japs moved north in Burma and southern China. So the warning got less and less until it dissolved completely. And that was the only place we were ever surprised by the Japs either in the air or the ground, was at Loiwing. One morning I was riding down the runway in a jeep with Tex Hill right at dawn just at that moment 20 Jap fighter came in over the mountains to the east, we had all of our aircraft lined up we didn't disperse them for two reasons, one there wasn't much of a place to disperse them , we could spread them out a little more, but the main reason we didn't disperse them was because of the lack of warning and we wanted to be able to get those things in the air as fast as possible for what little warning there was. Well, on this day there wasn't any. They came in and strafe up and down and shot up a good number of the aircraft. I think they only destroyed one or two, but they damaged a lot of them. That, as I say, is the only time that we ever surprised either on the ground or in the air. We always saw them first in the air and that makes a big difference, believe me. We could hear them talking on the radio in the air occasionally. We maintained air silence. But we could tune a frequency and hear the Japanese aircraft talking to each other and get a pretty good idea from the volume about how far away they were. Whether, couldn't pin it down to last 100 yards, but you could get a good idea of whether they were in the immediate vicinity or some distance away. I think the Japanese probably felt so good over that one dawn raid where they caught us on the ground that they came in a few days later with 20 more fighters, but his was during daytime only this time we had some warning and were sitting up waiting for them and I believe we shot down about 11 out of the 20 most of them within sight of the airfield. �And that was the last time they tried that. That was the day, I believe when it stared out badly for me. I ran out and jumped in my airplane, took off and just as the wheel were coming up I remembered that I hadn't turned the oxygen on. The oxygen bottle was in the baggage compartment in the fuselage, inaccessible from the cockpit. Because the bottles had a tendency to leak and we didn't have much in the way of supplies we turned the valve off on the ground and we left the baggage door propped open to remind us when we ran out on a scramble, if the door was open that would remind us to turn the valve on. Well, on this particular day that door was down and in the excitement I forgot all about the oxygen bottle until just as I was off the ground. Then I had to make a fast decision because I had no way of knowing whether the Japs were just about to come over the hill with 20 fighters again or whether I had 5 minutes or half hour. So I had to decide whether I had to go without oxygen or go around, circle around, land, get out or have the crew man run out and turn the oxygen on. So I finally decided I wouldn't be much good at altitudes without oxygen I'd have to take the chance. And I'm telling you that was a ride I don't want to do again that long circle, getting back in, getting stopped and looking over your shoulder and trying to fly the airplane at the same time wondering if you were going to get shot down in the landing pattern or on the ground. But fortunately I got off. And because of that I got separated and I never did join up with the main flight and later on Duke Headman joined up on my wing. And I decided that I was I was going to head out toward Thailand to see if we could pick up anybody. So we went out about, I don't know about 60 miles didn't see a thing. We were flying at 10,000 under a broken cloud layer and so I decided I'd turn around and come back and as we were coming back I look out in the distance ahead of us and I can see this plane coming. It looks to me like a radial engine. Which meant Japanese, because all of our fighters were in line engines. We were on the same level and probably… � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Older_Judge_1991-04-26_v05 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Charles Older Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-26 Title A name given to the resource Charles Older interview (video and transcript, 5 of 7), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Charles Older by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Charles Older trained as a pilot in Long Beach and Pensacola, earning his Navy wings in 1940. He then served in the Marine Fighting Squadron One and was qualified in gunnery, dive bombing, and carrier landings. Older joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in August 1941 and sailed to Burma. He served as a Flight Leader for the 3rd Squadron "Hell's Angels," and participated in the squadron's first combat over Rangoon where he downed two enemy aircraft. By the time the AVG disbanded in 1942, he had 10 total victories. After leaving the AVG, Older joined the US Army Air Forces and returned to China in 1944 with the 23rd Fighter Group. After the war, Older left the Air Force as a Lt. Col. and earned a law degree from the University of Southern California. He practiced law until becoming a superior court judge for Los Angeles. In the 1970s, he gained notoriety for presiding over the Charles Manson murder trials. In this tape, Older describes how it felt to shoot down enemy aircraft and his focus on survival, in addition to the types of planes that he fought. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/35702f7983002d508cc7a230b70e8d11.mp4 cda7b78ca91f3fdc43325046ccc64f11 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/066af3df489bbb75f3bde9ba317e3c8b.pdf a8bcadcb995126a856276c128a8e7a07 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Charles “Judge” Older Date of interview: April 26, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 6] JUDGE OLDER: After one of the missions at Loiwing, Duke Hedman joined up on my wing and I decided that we might be able to pick up something if we headed out toward Thailand, so we went out about 60 miles and didn't see a thing. We were flying at about 10,000 ft. under a broken cloud layer, and so I turned around and headed back to Loiwing, and as we were going back, I saw coming toward us up in front, what appeared to be a Jap fighter, but I wasn't absolutely sure, but it did appear to have radial engine which would mean Japanese, because all of our fighters had M-line engines, and we passed each other on the same level, and I'd say probably 500 yards apart and I just pulled up into a steep chandelle to get a look at his markings and I was certain it was Japanese, but I wanted to see him anyway, and start back down on his tail, and he didn't hurry, he just stayed right headed toward Thailand. I felt sure he was going to do a flick turn and come back on us at any second, so I probably started firing a little bit out of range, thinking that was the only shot I was going to get. I know I hit him because the plane gave a lurch just like that, and in the next instance he just pulled the thing up to a flat loop and came right back over our heads. I could look up into the cockpit and tell you what he was wearing. He was wearing a dark blue flight suit and the fight was on and Duke and I tangled with this guy from 10,000 all the way down to I don't know where and finally he went into a hillside and that was confirmed later by a missionary on the ground who had seen this. �That was an interesting incident. Another incident there was - I was scrambled off one day with P.J. Green to go after a Jap reconnaissance aircraft and we had no idea of where he was coming come from or what altitude, but they just scrambled us off and said, go get him. So I decided I'd go up to as high as we could get reasonably, which is 27,000. At that time of the year there's a very thick haze in northern Burma, I mean really thick. You can't see horizontally, you can only see straight down. So I was looking out the side of the airplane at 27,000, looking straight down, and this Jap reconnaissance plane, the I-45, twin engine, very fast, came right out from under the trailing edge of my wing. He was about 3,000 ft. below us. I knew if I took my eyes off of him, I'd never see him again, so Green was on my right side, I just pulled over and we started down, and he never saw us. I started firing because we were coming so fast - I started firing, again probably a little bit out of range, because we were closing so fast. And I saw him - the pilot go out the left side of the airplane and pull the 'chute, but I never saw the 'chute open. As it turned out, it didn't open because they found him later. In the mean time - and then broke off - then Paul got separated from me. I got back on the ground and had to talk him back in by asking him where he was when we got separated and from that I knew where we were, I could talk him back in and he finally got in. FRANK BORING: After this, Chennault asked you to go and pick up some new airplanes, was this right around the same period of time? JUDGE OLDER: Yes, that was when - I believe that was before we got to Loiwing, before I got to Loiwing. FRANK BORING: If you could give us perhaps a highlight or a particular part of that trip that made it memorable for you. JUDGE OLDER: Yes, it was in late February and March that Chennault ordered six of us to go to the Gold Coast of West Africa and pick up six new P-40E's. The reason we were going to - the place was called �Takoradi, right near Accra on the Gold Coast - was because they were being assembled there. They had an assembly area on this field, and being test flown there, and someone had to fly them back to China. So P.J. Green, R.T. Smith, Older, Haywood, Benny Foshee and I think Link Laughlin were the six. So we flew CNAC over the Hump to Calcutta, then we got on a BOAC flying boat on the Hooghly River at Calcutta and flew across India and landed at Karachi in the bay, then went on to Sahara?, now in the Emirates, southern Arabian Peninsula and spent one overnight, then went to Batzra, spent a night or two in Batzra, then went over and landed on the Sea of Galilee in what was then Palestine and finally, on the Nile, Cairo. After a couple of days in Cairo, we got on a DC3 army DC3 - went south to Khartoum and then jumped away across Africa, Elobey, El Facha, El Geneina, and finally down to Takoradi. An interesting incident happened in El Facha which is just a mud hut village. We were there for about 45 minutes to refuel and I decided I'd walk around this little village, and I was by myself at the moment. As I turned the corner of this street, I came face to face with a full grown lioness walking down the middle of this street. I was paralyzed! I didn't know what to do so I didn't do anything, I just - I was afraid to run because - I just was afraid. So I stood there and this lioness without paying the slightest bit of attention to me, just walked right down the middle of the street, right be me. I turns out later she was the village mascot and quite tame. I don't know if she knew she was take, they thought she was tame. So that was one of the incidents that happened on the trip. We stayed in Takoradi a few days and test flew the airplanes, and the Tom Haywood and I took off with two of them. Our first return gas stop was a little place called Osogbo in the middle of Nigeria. We got there and one of us had a big bubble on one tire that had to be changed and the other airplane was having mag trouble, so we spent a couple of nights there and they finally decided in Takoradi that rather than fly in spare parts and mechanics and so forth that we should come back and pick up two new airplanes and they'd get those later, so we took the train back to Lagos and went right through the middle of the Nigerian jungle all night. No windows in �the cars incidentally, and the wildest screeches and howls you ever heard coming from the jungle and got back to Takoradi and picked up two more airplanes. This time, Benny Foshee was my wingman instead of Tom Haywood and Benny and I made the trip all the way back to China. FRANK BORING: When you returned, I understand you heard about the death of a very good friend, I wonder if you could tell us about that. JUDGE OLDER: Yes, while I was gone, the 3rd squadron and I think one or two of the - maybe all of the squadrons were at a place called Magwe, Burma, and the Japs bombed Magwe. There were two of our people killed there, one was my good friend Frank Swartz who was in my class at Pensacola and the other was an airman named Fauth. I can't think of his first name but he was a 3rd squadron airman and they were both hit by bomb fragments on the ground and I think Fauth was killed instantly and Swartz was severely injured and taken to India where he subsequently died in the hospital there. That was a great loss. Frank - Swartzy as we called him was a great guy. FRANK BORING: I wonder if you could give us your impressions of the Chinese people. You were in Kunming for a while, you got a chance to meet some of these people. What were your impressions of the Chinese? JUDGE OLDER: I liked the Chinese, I liked the Burmese too. Kunming is a large city - it doesn't like a large city but it has a large population. It had then - I would guess somewhere between 300,000 and a half a million. But by looking at the city from the air, it was just all one story buildings for the most part. It didn't look like much. But the Chinese are very cheerful for one thing, they are extremely hardworking, dedicated, loyal. Couldn't do enough for us. �FRANK BORING: Did you ever get a chance to meet either Generalissimo, Chiang Kai-shek or Madam Chiang Kai-shek, could you give us your impressions of them? JUDGE OLDER: I didn't meet either of them personally until after the war when we had a reunion in Taipei at the Grand Hotel and both Generalissimo and Madam Chiang Kai-shek were there. But my impression of Chiang from what I'd seen and heard long before I ever had a chance to meet him was that he was in many respects like Chennault, just a very single purposed, dedicated man who had spent his life trying to bring China out of the old regime and into something new and had been highly successful at it. FRANK BORING: Towards the end of your contract with AVG - I realize that this was a very difficult period of time for all of you - but as July 4th started to become closer and closer, could you give us an idea of what you were thinking about. It was being asked for you to stay on and rejoin the army air corps. There was somewhat of dissension of people who were not agreeing with the missions that were being asked to fly - these dangerous morale missions. Could you give us an idea of what your impressions were of these final month or days or… JUDGE OLDER: I think some of the problems started when we were at Loiwing in late April, maybe early May. We didn't know it at the time, but somewhere in that period, Chennault had been commissioned to Brigadier General in the US army air forces, because everyone knew that our group was slated to disband on July 4th of 1942, and as I say, we didn't know that. Some of the army air force's people started coming into China, not many but a few, and of course, we were getting feedback from India where there were quite a few of them over there. We started getting orders to fly some, what I thought were just kooky missions, like, one was to fly down and circle around in Burma the front lines. The Japs were moving up in Burma and the Chinese where Stillwell and his forces were down there. It was kind of a rapidly changing situation, but they wanted �us to go down there and fly around at low altitudes, just sort of motor around casually to let the Chinese see the insignia on our airplanes to boost their morale. My thinking was that their morale wouldn't be boosted very much by seeing us get shot down doing that kind of silly nonsense and so, why do it? So we started making some complaints about missions like that, and then they had a mission to escort Blenheim's, I think, to Chiang Mai Anyway, there were a number of things and I began to get the feelings and others too - probably most of the others - that Chennault was no longer calling the shots, that we were being used by somebody to do this kind of nonsense, and we weren't there for the purpose we came over there for, which was to fight the Japanese. So people started to get unhappy about this and we did have a meeting at one time with Chennault and everybody expressed their opinions and it got rather heated. I don't know whether anybody flat out refused to do anything; we certainly let it be known what our feelings were. It all cooled down afterwards and I remember Chennault one day was sitting outside the alert shack at Kunming, - Loiwing - and I sat down next to him, just the two of us happened to be there at the moment, and he turned to me and said, "Charlie, I don't quite understand the feelings of some of the pilots about some of these missions that we've been talking about and the resentment that they seem to have for some of them." And I said, "Well General, we don't mind risking our lives but we just don't want to throw them away, that's the feeling." He didn't say anything. Anyway, it all passed, missions went on again, but I think had we known at that time that he was a Brigadier General in the army air forces and that he obviously was being told by somebody to do these things that he never would have done on his, because it just wasn't Chennault, it was completely out of character as far as I could see, that we probably would have been more understanding, and he would have been more understanding and the whole thing would have passed by without any problem. It was just a particular time that did pass and I don't think he ever lost any respect for us and we certainly never lost any respect for him. As I say, I never saw or heard �anybody refuse to fly any mission, but we certainly did discuss them. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Older_Judge_1991-04-26_v06 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Charles Older Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-26 Title A name given to the resource Charles Older interview (video and transcript, 6 of 7), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Charles Older by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Charles Older trained as a pilot in Long Beach and Pensacola, earning his Navy wings in 1940. He then served in the Marine Fighting Squadron One and was qualified in gunnery, dive bombing, and carrier landings. Older joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in August 1941 and sailed to Burma. He served as a Flight Leader for the 3rd Squadron "Hell's Angels," and participated in the squadron's first combat over Rangoon where he downed two enemy aircraft. By the time the AVG disbanded in 1942, he had 10 total victories. After leaving the AVG, Older joined the US Army Air Forces and returned to China in 1944 with the 23rd Fighter Group. After the war, Older left the Air Force as a Lt. Col. and earned a law degree from the University of Southern California. He practiced law until becoming a superior court judge for Los Angeles. In the 1970s, he gained notoriety for presiding over the Charles Manson murder trials. In this tape, Older discusses the loss of Frank Swartz, his impressions of the Chinese people while in Kunming, and his thoughts as their contracts with the AVG were nearing the end. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/92d2658e9ebd7e7edfcacb697f46eccb.mp4 aca7a48ac70bbc3cf742630299cf38e9 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/aaf0d71b82435b386a20948390995b58.pdf 4c9a9900320f5d6dd13bc30323bef98a PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Charles “Judge” Older Date of interview: April 26, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 7] JUDGE OLDER: Starting in late April and early May of 1942 when we were at Loiwing, the army air force started sending in a few people preparatory to bringing many more later on and they had set up some headquarters somewhere and were starting to designate some missions for the AVG to fly, and I can remember one particular mission they had us scheduled to fly was one down into Burma in the area of a little town called Kong Hi Ping, south east of Lashio, about 60 miles where they wanted us to go down there on a fighter sweep and strafe targets of opportunity is what it amounted to. I was pretty well convinced - I was the operations officer for the 3rd squadron - I was intimately familiar with what was going on and where it was going on and I was convinced it was still held by the Chinese, even though it was Burma, but the Japs were moving up fairly fast in Burma, and I kept checking back with this army air force Intelligence Officer, telling him that I didn't think that's what he wanted to do, that Kong Hi Ping was still Chinese and, no, he said he'd check and call back and he'd check and call back and I'd talk it over with the others and still believed it wasn't right. This went on three or four five telephone calls. Anyway, we ran the mission and I happened to be leading the flight, and we went down to Kong Hi Ping and finally found a long line of trucks on a road that appeared to be coming in from the east, which could have been Thailand, but I wasn't sold yet, but that was my mission, so we strafed the trucks and set a good number of them on fire and �finally left. I was convinced - or I was not convinced that we were not strafing Chinese trucks. Fortunately we had given them enough warning by circling in the area so that I believe all of the personnel got out of the trucks and were dispersed into the jungle so we weren't killing people, we were just shooting up trucks. JUDGE OLDER: Near the end of the AVG, this is now Kunming, we were told to be in the theater at one of the hostels, I think it was hostel number one, but I'm not sure, at 8 o'clock that night for some kind of a meeting. When we got there, it turns out that the meeting was for the purpose of allowing, I think he was a Colonel then, he later became a General, in fact, he later became court-marshalled in Germany after the war - his name was Clayton Bissell. Colonel Bissell was there, and I might say, the army couldn't have sent anyone less qualified as a public relations man than this guy. He was there to tell us what we were going to do after the AVG disbanded. That got us off to a wrong start right there because we were civilians, we weren't in the army. So we thought maybe we'd like to have something to say about what we were going to do after the AVG was disbanded. Anyway, things went from bad to worse and I don't if it all ended up with catcalls and boos but it was almost that bad. It was just a very poor approach by the army to try to get us to stay in over there and not to go home after our contracts were finished. FRANK BORING: There's a couple of points I'd like you to clarify involving that. 1) why did the army want you to stay on, and 2) what were your decisions already? What decisions had you made? Were you still wondering what you were going to stay there or go home? What were your personal feelings about this? JUDGE OLDER: I didn't have any intention of staying on after the year was up when I went over there and during the time I was there. In the first place I had gotten engaged just before I left and I told my wife I'd meet her in Honolulu and we'd have a honeymoon there. That, of course, didn't work out because of the war, but I was still intending to go �home and get married. After that, I wasn't quite sure. Maybe go back in the service or what. And there were many others who felt the same way, but some did want to stay over and some did. I later came back to China in 1944 and 1945 in the 23rd Fighter Group, but I wanted go get home first before I fought any more war. FRANK BORING: Why did the army want you to stay? JUDGE OLDER: Because we were experienced fighter pilots and - the army wanted us to stay because we were an experienced fighter group and the people they were bringing in had no combat experience. Our feeling was you can get it in a hurry when you get serious, so it really wasn't all that important. FRANK BORING: There's two final questions and take your time about answering them if you want. (Inaudible) at that period in your life during that period of time which was one year of your life. JUDGE OLDER: I don't know how to lead into it. I feel that my experience in the AVG was very rewarding in several respects. In the first place I was doing something that I knew how to do, was trained for. I was fighting the fight against the enemy. I had no idea that we'd be in a world war while I was over there, it's the way it turned out. I was also seeing a good part of the world as it turned out too before I got home and that was one of the things I wanted to do when I was over there. But mostly it was a feeling of being in the right place at the right time, and that's really the story of the AVG. What we accomplished in numbers of aircraft shot down, although we shot down a lot, probably didn't change the course of the war, it helped of course. But if you recall back, in early 1942, those were the dark days of the war, the allies were losing the war on every front except one and that was where the AVG was. We were the only ones accomplishing any significant victories at that particular time. The Germans were kicking the hell out of the British in the desert, they'd already kicked them out of France. The Japanese were roaming all over the Pacific, but in one tiny place in Burma, the �AVG was winning every fight. And the significance of that is not how many airplanes we shot down, but that that was a morale booster for everybody on the allies' side, because the media played that up, as they should because this was news. You could pick up the paper at home and read about all the bad stuff on one side, but on the other side, there'd be an article about the AVG knocking the hell out of the Japanese. FRANK BORING: One final question. What do you feel about being called a Flying Tiger? JUDGE OLDER: Time out! FRANK BORING: …from you, is your own personal - not just the AVG or all that, you've mentioned AVG already which is the Flying Tigers, but just the term Flying Tigers. JUDGE OLDER: In my own eyes, it has a great deal of prestige for the reasons that I've already mentioned, but I think the main idea - I think I'm most proud of the fact that I had, for one reason for another I made the decision to resign from the Marine Corps before the war at a time when this country needed somebody in China and China certainly needed us, and to go over with these other volunteers, and in effect, walk into the unknown, because we really didn't know what we were walking into. I think that's the thing I like about it best. FRANK BORING: Where do you think the AVG fits in terms of the history of China? JUDGE OLDER: That's a big subject! I don't know! I think the AVG's part in the defense of China was significant for much the same reasons morale reasons. The Chinese had been engaged with the Japanese on the losing side for five years in 1941-42. That was between Japan and China having started in 1937, and the Japanese had bombed Chinese cities without any real opposition, and the Chinese had just been subjected to war in all of its forms for five years, and on the losing side. So they were really hanging on the �ropes in 1941 and 1942. In fact, they were hanging on the ropes in 1940 when, without warning, the British closed the Burma Road. They subsequently re-opened it but that was a real body blow when in 1940, the British closed the Burma Road, because that was the only lifeline going into China. But then they re-opened it again. Mainly it was the idea that the Chinese were now on the winning side, that the Americans there to help them were shooting down Japanese and they had visible evidence of this, and this was a tremendous morale boost, something they needed more than anything else at the time outside of some real tangible help. FRANK BORING: One last question, just about what the AVG did in solving [?] in terms of the keeping China in the war? JUDGE OLDER: I wasn't a part of that. I was in the hospital at the time - and how much good? That's a matter for dispute, I guess. FRANK BORING: This will be the last one… JUDGE OLDER: From time to time I hear people apply the term "mercenary" to the AVG, and I would like to respond to that because I think it's utter nonsense. My definition of a mercenary as that term has been used historically applying to the military, has been someone who's willing to fight for either side, for compensation. There was no one in the AVG that was willing to fight for either side. We knew why we were there. We knew which side we were fighting for, who we were fighting against, and there was never any question about that. So that mercenary term is just a term of denigration that has no application whatever to our group. FRANK BORING: Did Olga live up to the original advertising that she was…? JUDGE OLDER: She was a very striking woman, she was very pretty and good figure, and she stood out like a lighthouse in Burma because there was no-one else around anything like her. I think in some way, she kind of gave a boost to the young bucks in the AVG, just being �there, just by being able to see a good-looking woman reminded you of some the things you left behind. FRANK BORING: This is the end of the interview. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Older_Judge_1991-04-26_v07 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Charles Older Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-26 Title A name given to the resource Charles Older interview (video and transcript, 7 of 7), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Charles Older by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Charles Older trained as a pilot in Long Beach and Pensacola, earning his Navy wings in 1940. He then served in the Marine Fighting Squadron One and was qualified in gunnery, dive bombing, and carrier landings. Older joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in August 1941 and sailed to Burma. He served as a Flight Leader for the 3rd Squadron "Hell's Angels," and participated in the squadron's first combat over Rangoon where he downed two enemy aircraft. By the time the AVG disbanded in 1942, he had 10 total victories. After leaving the AVG, Older joined the US Army Air Forces and returned to China in 1944 with the 23rd Fighter Group. After the war, Older left the Air Force as a Lt. Col. and earned a law degree from the University of Southern California. He practiced law until becoming a superior court judge for Los Angeles. In the 1970s, he gained notoriety for presiding over the Charles Manson murder trials. In this tape, Older describes the meeting with General Bissell near the end of the AVG and his plans as his contract ended. He also expresses what his experience in the AVG meant to him and how it felt to be known as a Flying Tiger. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/efbe935243dba1254ba1345bd7ce65d6.mp4 5240af0b4ddb3ebd780302b60cc7368c https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dd2dcb317b9cef8d274fc1a633974ad8.pdf 1c49ea0d967847e571539adaabbd80f9 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview World War II Wayne Charles Total Time – (01:27:59) Background           He was born in Muskegon, Michigan on September 5, 1925 (00:25) o He grew up in Muskegon There were four kids in the family (00:49) o He had two brothers and a sister His father owned a gasoline station (00:56) o His sister was his mother's pride and joy o His father was able to keep his business through the 1930‟s (01:10) o The business went from being part of a major oil company to being independent (01:20)  He called the gas station his gold mine He went to high school at Muskegon High School (01:39) He remembers hearing about Pearl Harbor when he was down at the Michigan Theater (01:48) o When he came out of the movie theater everyone had the local newspaper saying that Pearl Harbor had been bombed Before that, he did not pay much attention to the war that was going on (02:09) o At that point of his life, life was very good and there were not many things that were bothering him (02:26) o He was just sixteen years old when Pearl Harbor was bombed He was not sure if the war would last long enough for him to be a part of it (02:39) o They took the news as it came His father was serious about the war when it was declared (02:47) o He became a block warden (02:52)  The block warden would have drills that he would run He remembers things such as paper and scrap drives going on (03:37) o Gasoline was rationed at gas stations He received his draft notice right when he graduated from high school in June of 1943 (04:03) Enlistment/Training – (04:07) �               When he graduated the boys were asked if they wanted to apply for OTC (Officers Candidate Training) o He decided that he mind as well – it could not do any harm to join (04:23) He was sent to Camp Croft, South Carolina (04:41) o Camp Croft is near Spartanburg, South Carolina (04:50) En route to Camp Croft, he was taken to Chicago, Illinois o From Chicago he was put on a train o The trip took 2-3 days (05:42) o There were a lot of recruits on board o They took a route through the back woods (06:04) When he arrived the soldiers were told where to line up (06:09) o The 1st Sergeant came out and read to them o One of the Sergeants gave him a special reception when he said, “You‟re in the infantry now. You can take that and shove it where the sun don‟t shine!” (06:38) He learned wire communications in Basic Training (07:00) There was a lot of emphasis on order and discipline (07:15) There was a lot of physical training He remembers having to train in different kinds of uniforms o It felt like they put the winter uniform on in the summer because he remembers it being warm outside and the sweat starting to come down his face (07:46) He learned discipline in the military but his dad had already instilled a great deal of it in him (08:18) He did not do wire communications training for the first few months of Basic Training (09:16) o There was Basic Training but then he continued at Camp Croft with specialized training (09:25) As time went on he was able to leave the base o A lot of men wanted to get weekend passes to get out of camp (09:43) o He never saw anything in Spartanburg that he wanted  It was just a bunch of bars and brothels (09:55)  They asked him to go on guard at the theater – he chose not to go At this point he was not assigned to any specific unit but was just part of the regular training group (10:41) o They did not get assigned to a group until later He spent a total of roughly four months in South Carolina (11:09) After he was done with training he was allowed to pack up and go home for leave (11:33) Once he was done with leave, he was shipped to Maryland where they received a weekend pass to New York City, New York (11:41) o The day after he came back they loaded up and shipped out o It was June of 1944 (11:59) �Active Duty – Part I – England/France/Maginot Line – (12:03)            He loaded on the USS Hermitage (12:06) o It was a converted Italian luxury liner o There were roughly 3-4,000 men on it (12:33) o They were very tightly packed on it o Many of the men got seasick (12:40) o The smell of food made him have to go and heave over the side of the boat The weather on the ocean was stormy (13:19) o They seldom had a nice day o The ship zigzagged back and forth to stay away from submarines (13:25) o They were sailing in a convoy He does not recall any U-boat scares when crossing the Atlantic Ocean (13:53) The trip took quite a while – approximately two weeks When they arrived they landed in Liverpool, England (14:35) o They were put on a train and shipped to a small town back in England someplace There was a camp set up with a tents in the countryside (14:53) o He was there for roughly one month (15:29) o They would be forced to march around – they did not want the soldiers to go stir crazy (15:41) o They did enough to keep themselves moving o They were not allowed to leave camp (15:59) Some of the soldiers would go over the hill where the guard could not see and jump over the road and walk into town (16:11) o He went one night and had a chance to taste an English bitter (pale ale) (16:26) o The bathroom was a room that had everything dumping into one hole  He learned to use the facilities at an angle so that you “don‟t splatter back on you.” (16:56) They were getting news of what was happening in Normandy, France The soldiers then have their name called and are loaded up to be sent to a coastal area where they load on an LST (Landing Ship, Tank) (17:34) o They went across the channel and get on a smaller boat o The smaller boat then takes them to the shore (18:01) At this point he does not know what unit he was joining (18:33) When he landed he remember it looking like a beach with a bunch of cross blockers (tetrahedra) (18:58) o The beach was cleaned up pretty well – there were no dead laying around o He could see where there had been some bombing and artillery explosions (19:13) o Some of the embattlements had cans sticking out where artillery was shot from (19:22) o A lot of people did not realize that the destroyers came close to knocking them out on D-Day �           When they landed on the beach they got into trucks and went through Chartres, France (20:26) o The only thing left in Chartres was the cathedral (20:35) He went through Saint-Lo, France as well (21:37) o It was leveled (21:42) En route to Paris, France, he ran into some sniper fire He was on his way help close the Falaise Pocket (22:40) o They never had to actually participate in the fight o If the fight had lasted another day or two they would have been in it (23:01) o His unit then dropped south and went towards the Maginot Line (23:12) He was part of the 8th Infantry Regiment, 4th Division o They were sitting outside of Paris waiting for the French Charles de Gaulle to come in and make his grand entry (23:29) o It bothered the soldiers because one regiment got all of the recognition  It always seemed like they got the short end of the stick (24:04) They would have to cross different rivers throughout France and would sometimes face some firefights there (24:12) o The Germans had no coordinated defense (24:18) His first combat experience was when they were going through a French town in the morning o There was a mist coming up and they could not see very well (24:57) o They were supposed to maintain contact with F Company and go through to see if there were any German stragglers o When they went over to see if the men they saw was F Company, they realized that they were Germans (25:20)  That is when “all hell broke loose” o There was fire going in all directions when they were fighting (25:37) o He was not sure what to do because it was his first combat  He started to just spray his bullets (25:54) o He learned how to survive for himself o When he first started shooting he had already hit the ground (26:31)  The fighting is pandemonium o He would not have known how to prepare for that kind of fighting (26:52) Most of the men in his company were originally from Normandy (27:02) o There were not very many losses on Utah Beach (27:12) o The company was in good strength In the first combat that he faced, the soldiers were on top of a bald hill (27:45) o The Germans had the only cover that was there o The rest of his Company was running while he was shooting (28:20) When he finally got off the hill, he could see the company a half-mile down a country road away – he said that some of the men had “a real head start.” As he was advancing through France and Belgium in August and September of 1944, he saw very little of the civilian populations (29:21) o They were kept away from cities with higher populations o They would go through many little towns (29:31) �Active Duty – Part II – Siegfried Line/Hurtgen Forest – (30:49)          After his first firefight they did not face much opposition as they moved forward – not until they got to the Siegfried Line (30:53) o The first time they went through the Siegfried Line it was like a walk in the park  There were a few sniper fires but that was about all (31:08) o When they got to the other side, the hill was extremely peaceful – it is hard to imagine something so peaceful in a time of war (31:20)  It was almost like something that a painter would paint  The soldiers stood there for about four hours (31:50) o The soldiers are then told to pull back  They were frustrated that they were going to give it back up  They could not be supported with artillery, armor, food, water, etc. (32:21) Once they got the supply situation straightened out they were sent back to the Siegfried Line and fight there way back through (32:31) o He thinks that it is where he got his hearing loss – he lost his hearing for three or four days (32:43) o The second trip through was no walk in the park o They were trying to attack the pillboxes and bunkers (33:00) o The big pillboxes were made of concrete and had big guns sticking out of them  The Germans knew exactly how far it was from the pillbox to anything else (33:18) His unit avoided the mine fields because they still had signs up (33:52) The fields all had dragon‟s teeth to keep the tankers out (34:17) o They would walk through the fields with those When they got into the wooded forest area they had to do the fighting (34:28) o Seldom did they do any fighting in the Siegfried Line where there were buildings around His unit was able to move forward but faced some trouble (34:54) o When soldiers crossed the Siegfried Line, they crossed into Germany (35:04) o The Germans defend their homeland just like anyone else would The Americans were fortunate to have the Russians putting pressure on the Germans on the other front (35:26) o The Germans were not able to have all of their forces defend the west (35:32) o Hitler‟s idea was even to keep everyone off of the beaches o The Americans were not even supposed to get to the Siegfried Line (35:57) The Americans eventually took the Siegfried Line He does not know much about the path they took to get to the Siegfried Line – “As an infantry man, they don‟t tell you anything.” (36:20) �          o The soldiers are also on the ground a lot of the time – they are not up looking around His unit pushed forward and moved into the Hurtgen Forest in Germany (37:07) As they were pushing through the Siegfried Line, the fighting became increasingly worse o There was some open ground between the Siegfried Line and the Hurtgen Forest (37:59)  They were going to have to fight the battle regardless of the terrain Quite a bit of the Hurtgen Forest had been manmade (38:38) o The trees had been harvested, planted, and re-harvested o It was a renewable resource for many of the people (38:55) o When they were fighting they would find some of the poor people gathering twigs and whatever they could for fire to keep warm (39:03) o The trees were laid out in lines o The lower braches die and break off (39:37) o There would be soldiers that would walk beside one another breaking off branches  The soldiers could hear when something was coming but they could not tell who it was, where it was coming from, or exactly how far away it was (39:48)  Only when they were very close, approximately ten feet, they could tell who it was The Germans would usually sit back and wait for the Americans to attack (41:30) o When the Americans took any ground, the Germans would counterattack it right away (41:42) o They fought in a way that made them ready to defend their ground The 1st Lieutenant that arrived was seeing his first combat When they took ground it was very bloody (42:47) o Ground is not given up very easily At one point his lieutenant told them to retreat (43:37) o He later talked to his company commander‟s wife and she told him that the lieutenant was probably the man that had told her husband that he could not do this any more (44:17) o The lieutenant disappeared a day or two after his retreat order A new lieutenant was then sent back out (44:41) The company commander was typically better than the lieutenants (44:55) o He did his job very well o The commissioned officers sometimes “go back to the battalion and they shave and pussy up to the battalion commander” (45:13)  They sometimes get a position while they are there  It was also a way for them to get some rest (45:32)  None of the non-commissioned officers received any of that treatment He had battle fatigue while he was in the Hurtgen Forest (46:03) �      o He had tried to go back for a night so that he could get rest when his commander asked him, “God damn it Charles, Somebody‟s gotta fight this „F-F‟ war!” (46:45) o That was the end of their conversation o He was the only seasoned soldier in their platoon at the time (47:09)  They had been replaced two and a half times while they were in the Hurtgen Forest When he was in the forest, casualties happened in many different ways (47:36) o Artillery was probably the main cause of injuries  The artillery knocks the foliage out of the air (48:15)  The Germans would then go and hide in the foliage and fire at them (48:24) o The rifle fire was probably the next most dangerous form of killing (48:39)  The Germans always had more automatic weapons than the Americans (48:52)  They would always have two machine guns with intersecting lines of fire They had two 60mm mortars and two light machine guns in their company (49:57) o The Germans would have 4-6 automatic weapons per squad (50:06) o The Americans never had nearly the same amount of firepower as the Germans o The Americans also never had smokeless powder (50:28)  They could not tell where the Germans were located  The smoke would give away their positions (50:43) He spent a little over a month in the Hurtgen Forest (51:15) o There was no light at the end of the tunnel o He would go through the same things day after day thinking that he could get wounded or killed in the next second (51:38) o The soldier never knows when or how fast it is going to happen o Soldiers are constantly on the edge (51:49) There was one instance, after an attack on a couple of light tanks, a German machine gunner tore loose a rain coat that he had hanging over his ammo belt o One of the soldiers said, “Charles, you‟re going to kill us all!” (52:35) o As far as he was concerned, they were already dead (52:43)  He had not come to that conclusion yet  There is nothing to be concerned about if you know that you are already dead (52:51) There was no rotation for the men (53:12) o They would send replacements for the men that were killed (53:20) As a platoon leader, it is initial job to get the replacements up to the frontline o They lost a lot of men just getting them to the front (53:35)  There were close to fifty replacements that went in one night  Twenty five of them were hit with artillery and never even made it to their outfit (53:55) �      o They could never count on their replacements being there (54:03) o They would tell the replacements to get on the ground and hug it as tight as you can (54:10) o “Don‟t try to be a hero.” One time a Lieutenant asked if anyone had anything to say and he told them that they should pray a lot and he meant it (54:45) o No one said a word It got extremely cold there – his feet got frostbite on them (55:05) o He still has a hard time keeping his balance (55:14) o He did not have frozen feet – he had frostbitten feet  It took him ten years to get his claim through the VA  He took two trips to Detroit, Michigan to get his claim through When he went to Detroit for his claim, it was a lot like a court room (56:18) o When he walked in, they told him to tell them his claim o He first asked the man, “Have you ever been in combat before?” He said “No.” He replied, “In combat there are some things that happen that you don‟t understand what goes on unless you‟ve been in combat. And that is you have a camaraderie and fellowship with your men. And you don‟t leave them no matter what.” (57:01) o He told him that he was not going to run off from his men for something like frostbitten feet or a temporary loss of hearing o He stayed with his men because they needed him (58:18)  He was the only seasoned man in the outfit at the time o He told him that he had to understand that o His claim eventually went through (59:15) His hearing problems are not simply a problem of volume but of bone conduction (01:00:08) o He does not differentiate between different consonants When he was in the Hurtgen Forest they gained some ground (01:01:08) o They were extremely hard fought battles that were bought with blood o Nothing was free in Hurtgen Forest (01:01:20) There was only one point where they had tanks – the fighting was almost exclusively infantry fighting Active Duty – Part III – Battle of the Bulge/Last Experiences – (01:01:45)   After they were done fighting in the Hurtgen Forest they were moved to Luxembourg (01:02:06) o They were only there for a couple of days before the Battle of the Bulge began (01:02:18) His company and regiment were pretty much a “ragtag outfit” (01:02:43) o They had no cohesion to fight like a 1st class outfit o They put up a hell of a fight (01:02:58) o They did not have seasoned men �            They were supposed to go on R&R when they went to Luxembourg but it did not turn out that way (01:03:16) They were in a position when the Battle of the Bulge started to anchor the bulge (01:03:33) o They kept it from spreading wider o Some replacements were sent to their unit (01:03:46) o They never got to full strength o His unit held its ground during the fighting (01:04:04) The Germans did not put a lot of pressure on his outfit o There were some other outfits that were heavily shelled (01:04:24) When in the front lines, the soldiers are given three K-rations every morning o They are sent up to the front lines by Supply Sergeants (01:04:57) There was one day in Hurtgen Forest when they sent a certain amount of men to bring back rations and water – the figures were not right o They did not have a man to carry the water up – he had to carry the water in each of his hands (01:05:35) o The lieutenant asked him how he got all of the rations up there – he told him that Charles carried two jerrycans (01:06:02)  Each jerrycan held five gallons The lieutenant that he liked was wounded once and gone for a while (01:07:28) o They were there at pretty much the same time o The lieutenant gave him a pass to go to Lyons, France (01:07:48) When he got back from Lyons, the rumor in his platoon was that he was going to be given battlefield commission o It turned out that it was a bureaucratic situation (01:08:31) Once the Battle of the Bulge was over, his unit started moving and attacking towards Germany (01:08:47) There was a picture of his platoon and squad crossing a river on the cover of LIFE magazine (01:09:42) o He was sent a copy of the magazine and he did not remember any of the men He does remember being at a city that was on a river where there was part of a battle line to keep the people from crossing the bridge (01:11:07) o They were there for a few days and then moved on (01:11:31) He does not remember crossing the Rhine River (01:11:47) One day they were unloading trucks and they were facing the woods. They were told that on the other side of the woods is some open ground, more woods, and then a German hospital (01:12:36) o They were told that the military wanted to know if there were armed Germans there or not o They went through the woods first until they got to the open space. They could see the tops of the buildings over the tops of the trees  To him it looked like something a person could want to get sucked into (01:13:35) o He did not want to take his men across and get them killed when the war was so close to being over (01:13:53) �          o He asked the lieutenant to go up to the front so that he could talk with him  He said that if the lieutenant came up and gave him a direct order, he would do it (01:14:32)  They waited and no one came o They eventually pulled out and went further down the road (01:14:57) When he crossed the autobahn, there was a steady line of German prisoners o The prisoners looked like normal men (01:15:39) o Some were younger and some were older o He realized that Hitler‟s army was so big because he had soldiers from all kinds of nations fighting for him (01:16:17) A lot of Hitler‟s army and war effort was run on synthetic petroleum (01:16:52) o They used a lot of slave labor (01:17:09)  The slave labor moved a lot of the male German population out of the industries and into the military They got close to the Austrian border at one time (01:17:47) When the war ended they ran a camp where they held German officials of the war (01:18:15) o There were some ambassadors and generals He remembers going to a museum in Augsburg, Germany and staying there After the war ended, he did not stay in Germany for too long (01:19:42) When they were in the camp where German officials were being held, they were told that they were going to go to Japan (01:20:00) o They were all being shaken down and had all of their things taken from there o There was no hurry to it (01:20:19) o The men were then told that they were going to be leaving for Le Havre, France (01:20:26) They quickly shipped to Le Havre o Many of the men got shipped to the United States for leave before they were supposed to be going to Japan (01:20:42) The war was very different in Japan – they had to have more training in the United States on how to operate in Japan (01:20:51) He was not happy that they were going to be sent to Japan After Europe/After the Service – (01:21:08)      While he was home the Japanese surrendered and they never had to go (01:21:12) When he returned to the United States, he did not travel in a convoy and landed in New York Harbor (01:21:25) He was discharged from Camp Butner, North Carolina o He was discharged in December of 1945 He did not have enough points to go home when he first arrived so he had to stay around Camp Butner for some time (01:21:56) o His last months there were spent being a Supply Sergeant He sent a German flag and helmet home from Camp Butner �    o He had given away German binoculars when he was in the Hurtgen Forest (01:24:22)  He did not want to get caught by the Germans with German goods on him (01:24:39) After he was discharged he went back to his dad and asked if he needed any help with work o They made an agreement to rent out the place next door for help at the gas station He made a career of working gas stations (01:25:55) o He eventually bought the gas station When he looks back at his time of service, he got to know what discipline was o He never really cared for the discipline of the service (01:26:27)  He did not like it because it was like a caste system (01:26:39) He does not think there should be women in the front lines in any kind of confrontation � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Charles, Wayne (Interview outline and video), 2013 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Charles, Wayne Description An account of the resource Wayne Charles was born in Muskegon, Michigan, in 1925, and was drafted in 1943. He trained at Camp Croft, South Carolina, in wire communications, but was eventually sent to Europe as an infantry replacement. He shipped out in June, spent about a month in England, and was assigned to the 8th Infantry Regiment, 4th Division, before the liberation of Paris in August. His unit advanced across France and Belgium, and fought through the Siegfried Line and into the Hurtgen Forest, where they saw their heaviest fighting. They were then sent to Luxembourg to refit, and wound up on the south shoulder of the Bulge in December. He then participated in the invasion of Germany and spent some time guarding German prisoners before being sent home and discharged. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-01-24 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context CharlesW1475V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5c282a2fb086924f8e4733739a52827d.jpg aac441e34edf8ccb22174354b004839d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert H. Merrill photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1909/1950 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-222 Description An account of the resource Photographs, negatives, and lantern slides digitized from the papers of engineer and archaeologist Robert H. Merrill. A Grand Rapids native, Merrill held an accomplished career as a civil engineer. He founded the company Spooner & Merrill, which held offices in Grand Rapids and Chicago. From 1919-1921, Merrill lived in China, working as Assistant Principal Engineer on a reconstruction of the Grand Canal - the oldest and longest canal system in the world. Merrill became fascinated by archaeology, and among other projects, he traveled to the Uxmal Pyramids in Yucatan, Mexico, with a research expedition from Tulane University. Merrill's photo collection includes images of his travels and projects, friends and family. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Merrill_EastmanAlbum_1_1909_065 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1909-07-12 Title A name given to the resource Charlevoix Piers Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of piers at Charlevoix, Michigan, Subject The topic of the resource Charlevoix (Mich.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/45a82fc8e3a9880e394e1dc32b71ba9f.jpg d9187e25824e51991bce14e9ad55e524 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert H. Merrill photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1909/1950 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-222 Description An account of the resource Photographs, negatives, and lantern slides digitized from the papers of engineer and archaeologist Robert H. Merrill. A Grand Rapids native, Merrill held an accomplished career as a civil engineer. He founded the company Spooner & Merrill, which held offices in Grand Rapids and Chicago. From 1919-1921, Merrill lived in China, working as Assistant Principal Engineer on a reconstruction of the Grand Canal - the oldest and longest canal system in the world. Merrill became fascinated by archaeology, and among other projects, he traveled to the Uxmal Pyramids in Yucatan, Mexico, with a research expedition from Tulane University. Merrill's photo collection includes images of his travels and projects, friends and family. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Merrill_EastmanAlbum_1_1909_066 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1909-07-12 Title A name given to the resource Charlevoix Round Lake Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of Round Lake in Charlevoix, Michigan. A bridge is visible in the background of the photo. Subject The topic of the resource Bridges Charlevoix (Mich.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/52d7278d0a2ae3ff8419b0f98bdb1ac0.jpg ece4cacfe13a6fc8eed56656e2fd3a68 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert H. Merrill photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1909/1950 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-222 Description An account of the resource Photographs, negatives, and lantern slides digitized from the papers of engineer and archaeologist Robert H. Merrill. A Grand Rapids native, Merrill held an accomplished career as a civil engineer. He founded the company Spooner & Merrill, which held offices in Grand Rapids and Chicago. From 1919-1921, Merrill lived in China, working as Assistant Principal Engineer on a reconstruction of the Grand Canal - the oldest and longest canal system in the world. Merrill became fascinated by archaeology, and among other projects, he traveled to the Uxmal Pyramids in Yucatan, Mexico, with a research expedition from Tulane University. Merrill's photo collection includes images of his travels and projects, friends and family. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Merrill_EastmanAlbum_1_1909_067 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1909-07-12 Title A name given to the resource Charlevoix Round Lake Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of the shoreline around Round Lake in Charlevoix, Michigan. Subject The topic of the resource Charlevoix (Mich.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c85e139e93faf0887b78fa26d70830bf.mp4 4098b68548853e90db9ca28b7a4ffef7 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f56f2cacd1fe630e50eb672cf6b8f7fa.pdf 351a45308f01801af883c581d60ef61d PDF Text Text RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Charles Bond Date of Interview: February 23, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 1] FB: If you could tell us, what were you doing prior to even hearing about the AVG. CB: Prior to hearing about the AVG, being in bombers and the United States staying out of the war but wanting to help had set up an arrangement to ferry Lockheed Hudson bombers from Burbank to Montreal to turn over the RCAF, the Royal Canadian Air Force, and then they would ferry them on to the British. They selected a lot of we bomber pilots to go on TDY to Long Beach, California, pick up the bombers, ferry them to Montreal, come back with a parachute and go again, which became very boring. Of course, I was still in the bomber business and then, I got a phone call and that was my old buddy, it was "Jebbo" Brogger who knew I knew I wanted to get in fighters which I was trained in at Kelly field in 1939, and let me know that I had a chance to get in fighters if I was interested, and he gave me the name of – I think it was – wait a minute – FB: Let's just start with you got the phone call from your buddy. CB: Yeah, I got this phone call from my buddy at McDill Air Force Base in Tampa, Florida, he said, "Charlie, you still want to get in fighters?", and I said, "You bet", so he gave me the name of Skip Adair whom he knew. He said, "You call him" and he gave me his phone number "and talk to him, and he'll tell you what your chance is to fly with the AVG in Burma to protect the Burma Road for the Chinese and under a guy by the name of Claire Chennault who used to be in the Air Force". I thanked him and I immediately called Adair and then he gave me the phone number of a Colonel Green whom I don't know this day who was in the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. "You just call him and tell him that you want to get in the AVG and he'll ask you a few questions". So I did that but I didn't do that until the following day, I got to talking to some of my buddies, Jim Cross 1 �and George Burguard who had come with me from McDill to do the same ferrying job and when I told them about the story and they were interested, so they said, "Look Charlie, we want to go too", and I said, Well, I'll mention your names", so the next day I called this number and Colonel Green answered and he asked me a few questions, I told him who I was, my qualifications and all and I said "I want to get in fighters" and I mentioned Jim Cross and George Burguard's name and he says, "Okay", and he says, "Probably within the next day you'll get a wire telling you what to do". Lo and behold, the next day my Commander got a wire at Long Beach. This was the forerunner of the old air transport command, it was called the Western Division of the United States Army Air Force Ferrying Division, just set up. He called me in, boy, and he was mad! "What the hell's going on?" Well, I explained it all to him and finally he settled down and sure enough, he had to publish orders that very day releasing Charlie Bond, Jim Cross and George Burguard from the United States Army Air Corps and I had to resign my reserve commission, all connections with the armed forces of the United States and I was told to report to my home in Dallas, Texas and I'd be notified later. So that's what happened. I went home and stood by, and eventually – I'd say within about a week, I got a letter from a CAMCO Organization, Central Aircraft Manufacturing Company. which later on turns out to be a background for the AVG and they gave me instructions to report to San Francisco, and I think it was early September, about the 10th of September of 1941 and paid my way, airline ticket and all, and that's how I ended up going to San Francisco and finding a lot of other characters just about like me, ready to go to China. FB: Now what was – when you met with the people in San Francisco at CAMCO – when you got to San Francisco and you got a chance to actually talk to the people at CAMCO, what did they tell you to expect – what did they expect of you and what did they tell you to expect when you arrived in China? CB: Well, when I got to San Francisco, the first – and I checked in with registration of course – and some guy came up to me and I can't remember who it was – I think it was one of 2 �the other guys who had already reported, and he says, "Just don't say anything to anybody what you're doing here, just register." And I registered and it ends up we had about 25 of the other characters there, and then we began to talk, and I recall now that I was told by Skip Adair the general concept of it was I would go over as a wing man, I would be paid $600 a month and this would all be in writing, and it would be for a year's contract and we were relief being organized to defend the Burma Road for the movement of lend-lease supplies up into China from Rangoon. He did say that also, you will get $500 for every airplane you shoot down, and this of course, made me perk up my ears. And we discussed this among all of the guys and they had been told the same thing, and we ultimately signed a contract which essentially said everything, but the $500 was not in the contract, however, it turned out,they faithfully did pay us $500 for every aircraft we shot down. FB: Why would you want to go to China – what was your motivation there? CB: I really jumped at the idea when I first heard about this from my buddy in McDill. I was trained in – at that date in those times, we called it Pursuit at Kelly Air Force Base, I was an Air Force guy, and lo and behold – and I've remembered this since '38 and '39 and the war was in Europe and we were trying to stay out of it in the United States – sort of, the hand-writing was on the wall – and the bomber concept was being pushed hard by the United States Army Air Corps and they began to expand the bombardment forces, so they took our class graduating in February '49 to pour into the expansion of bomber outfits and it took the top risk deal alphabetically. Well, Bond being it's top – but I was trained in Pursuits – lo and behold when they published – or the orders came out – I was assigned to second bomb group of V18's and D17's at Langley Air Force Base. I wanted to get back in fighters and also – now the three reasons why I went to the American Volunteer Group – I wanted to get back in fighters, and I wanted a regular commission. I figured if I went to the Far East – Burma and China, I was convinced, I was really convinced that we were gonna be in a war ultimately with the Japanese, and after a year I'd have combat experience and then I'd come back home and be on – I figured they couldn't help but give 3 �me a commission because I'd have combat experience. And the third reason, I wanted to buy my mother and father a home which was better than than the one they were living in, and that's the reasons I went to China. FB: What did you know about China? CB: China, in my opinion, was the other side of the earth and of course, being young, this is adventure and all and "Gee! – this will be interesting". I didn't know much more about China than what I studied in History class in High School and by the way, I never went to college before that.d FB: What about the Japanese, what did you know about the Japanese? CB: I knew where Japan was on a world map, I knew the Japanese were oriental, I could tell a Jap when I looked at one. FB: I was just thinking in terms of during that period of time there was a lot of – you'd go to a movie and there was always these films in front of – and newsreels and whatnot about the things that were happening in Europe and things that were happening in Japan, I was just wondering if that had any effect on you. CB: Oh definitely, that's – I was convinced based on what I was reading in newspapers, and being in the military – in the Air Force, and flying bombers and all, and you know, the war in Europe was already taking place and shaping up and President Roosevelt, listening to him talk, like I do now – president's talk – there was no doubt in my mind that the United States was going to be in a war, and everything seemed to fit for me, so the overriding reason is, I wanted to get back in fighters, so if there was a war I'd be fighting with fighters, not in bombers, and this gave me a year to get some money, and at $600 a month compared to $125 a month as Second Lieutenant, this was great, plus the adventure being in the Far East, and I just figured I would achieve my objectives and, fortunately, I did. FB: Once you were in San Francisco and they had you signed up and ready to go, you boarded a ship, can you tell us anything about the trip itself. 4 �CB: Well, after we were at San Francisco – staying by the way in the St. Francis Hotel for a fabulous week or two, we boarded ship, the Boschfontein, a Dutch motor ship in the harbor at San Francisco on 25th September, 1941, and I think we were the second contingent, or perhaps third contingent, certainly the second contingent– some thirty or forty of us with some Chinese missionaries and some American missionaries going back, and we sailed from the harbor on the 25th September, 1941, and for some reason or other – I don't know this date – I decided to write a letter to my Mom and Dad when we sailed under the Golden Gate Bridge because somehow or another I felt this was an historic time in my life and that was the starting of the first entry in my diary which produced that book. FB: Of the trip itself on the boat, one of the things I found interesting is that, you knew why you were going there, but your passports were rather creative in terms of what you guys were going as. CB: By the way, when I went over – we act separately completely from all relations with the armed forces, and my passport I picked up at the hotel from some of the administering people from CAMCO, Central Aircraft Manufacturing Company, my contracts and all, and my passport that identified me as a clerk, and this surprised me, but that was explained to me, that well, you know this is – not a lot of people know about this, and certainly we don't want the Japanese to know about this, and so forth and so on, and I began to check with my buddies, and Jeez, various names and occupations – it was crazy. FB: What were some of these occupations that you ran into? CB: One was a teacher, one was a musician – I think that was one of the characters, I forget who he was – of all things, he wasn't a musician. But it was all comical – didn't make sense. FB: You knew some of the guys that were on the trip, and you got to know some of the guys as the time went on, what were some of your impressions of some of the people you were going to China with? 5 �CB: We boarded the ship, "Boschfontein", Jim Cross and George Burguard and I, we'd all met at the hotel, and we had become associated with the other 20 or 30 of them, and we rapidly became very close with one another, all of use of a sort of military background, in other words, we came from the military, either army, navy, or marine corps – army air corps which is air force later on, and the marine corps and the navy, and our group which was representative of the overall outfit of about 52% navy pilots, some six or seven marines and the remaining air force, that was just about the cut of 35 or 40 of us aboard ship. Pappy Boyington was in our group, R.T. Smith, no Snuffy Smith, an air force guy, Dick Rossi was aboard, Bob Prescott who later became boss of the Flying Tiger Airline, so we rapidly became very close to one another, and before you knew it, we were acting as a typical bunch of fighter guys that had been together for years. FB: How did the trip………started out as a letter to your parents and that eventually motivated you to write – don't mention the book, I just want to talk about the diary itself. Start off with the fact that you started as a letter to your parents under the San Francisco Bridge. CB: As we sailed out of San Francisco Bay under the Golden Gate Bridge, it was late in the evening, the sun had begun to set, and I remember going out on deck deep in thought and I actually remember wondering, gee, I wonder if I'm doing the right thing, and did a little soul searching and then went to dinner and went back in my bunk and I decided to let my folks, naturally I was thinking about my folks, also Doris, a girlfriend I'd left, and I thought I'd write them a letter and I sat down and I – for some reason or other I had purchased two or three of these little composition books and I started making my first entry: San Francisco, 25th of September, 1941, and I began to describe my thoughts: Am I doing the right thing, gee, China? Half way round the world? Young. I knew what I wanted to do and this made me think that I'm doing the right thing and I was content, but I ended up writing about three or four pages that night and then went to sleep. And the next day, come the evening, for some reason or other, I decided I'll write some more, 6 �and as a result I ended up writing a diary for my entire, almost exactly a year, every night just as faithfully and religiously as I could, I'd enter my writing for that day, my thoughts, my events, be they good or bad, my anger, my fears, my complete happiness, elations, my fights I had with some of the guys, the haircuts I had, I always included all of the events I possibly could, and I ended up with about four booklets full of events including – it was really my life for that one year, and ended up with August 17th, 1942 when I came back home and landed in Miami. FB: The diary you speak of talks about the trip over and you had mentioned also that a group of young pilots and how they acted and all that, what was the trip like? CB: Well, it took us almost two months to go from San Francisco to Rangoon, Burma with stops in between, and of course, the first few days – I think it took us six days, or seven days to go from San Francisco to Honolulu where we first ………we began to get in sort of a – not a rut, but a routine of how we would get up in the morning, go to breakfast – the ship couldn't have been over 200 ft. long – a small one. We didn't have much recreation. Eventually they put in a swimming pool for us, they had good food, little Javanese waiters, they had a bar and we made use of the bar – many times too much. We could walk around the ship, sailing most of the entire trip all the way over to Rangoon from San Francisco was really relatively very calm seas. I was worried at first about getting seasick but that didn't bother me. It took me about three days to get used to the drumming of the motors; this was a motor ship with diesel oil and running propellers and the sound – the droning of the sound – it took a little time to get used to that, at first I got headaches from it, but never any seasickness. We ended up in – if you will – hangar flying, even in those days, but none of us had been in combat but telling about stories, you know, where bombers, fighters – some of the guys had just graduated from flying schools, others like – I was actually a First Lieutenant at the time I entered. We'd talk about our earliest experiences. I didn't realize it at the time but two or three of the guys 7 �were married, the rest of us were bachelors, though some of the guys may have been divorced I don't recall, but we were young FB: (That's a good place to stop) 8 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Bond_Charles_1991-02-23_v01 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bond, Charles R., Jr. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-23 Title A name given to the resource Charlie Bond interview (video and transcript, 1 of 12), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Charlie Bond by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Charles R. "Charlie" Bond was Vice Squadron Leader of the First Pursuit Squadron "Adam and Eves" of the American Volunteer Group (AVG). Recruited by Skip Adair in 1941, he was inspired by photos of shark-mouthed Tomahawks of No. 112 Sqadron, RAF. He was the first to paint his P-40 in similar markings, setting the precedent for what became the trademark of the Flying Tigers. He shot down six Japanese fighters and one bomber. After the AVG disbanded, he rejoined the US Army Air Forces School of Applied Tactics to train new fighter pilots. In this tape, Bond describes his background before joining the American Volunteer Group and his journey overseas from San Francisco to Rangoon. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3f321f246c5e5cd5a2c099a635fff2d4.mp4 e8b3325febdce08dc23f49462f152493 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ab05ed2270700e8f8600444743391a47.pdf c0d7d6eda8825c5bbe7a73182eb38dd5 PDF Text Text RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Charles Bond Date of Interview: February 23, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 10] FB: Tell us about buzzing the… CB: On the ferry trip when we took off from Karachi, I think our first leg through horrible haze and through dead reckoning navigation, our first place was Jodphur?, India, about the central part of India. Then from there we'd fly on straight down to Calcutta. The city of Agra, where the Taj Mahal was, was sort of en route, and I got thinking about it – the haze was so bad that we gradually had to get lower so I could do some piloting, know where I was, and I was leading the flight, and as we got closer, you could see the beautiful Taj Mahal from a distance. I talked myself into coming down real low, the other guys of course were right with me flinging out, and we turned – we couldn't have been over 50ft. because I remember looking over straight opposite and seeing the Taj Mahal and we circled it just as tight a circle as we could go and then took on off and went on down to Calcutta and as we entered Calcutta where the British were fearful of Japs even coming on over into India, so they had the more prestigious air and for any airplanes coming to Dum Dum Airport I think it was called. We had to fly down what you call corridors and one of the corridors was right down the middle of Hougli? River that flows past Calcutta into the bay. You're supposed to be below 2,000 ft. to identify yourself and then make a right turn at certain time. I got down to about 200 ft. We were right flat just practically in between the taller buildings, flying down that river and the end of the river goes right by the airport, so of course we couldn't get lost. Here we were screaming past me in a P-43, a great deal over there at that time, a little like a zero and with the other P40's following me. If I remember correctly I think there were a total of six of us and we 1 �circled the airport and came in and landed – the usual combat type landings. I remember the operations officer making a comment later on to us – by the way this was sort of a headquarters for CNAC – Chinese National Airways Corporation which was a Chinese airline – making a comment, "You guys are the wildest pilots I've ever seen in my life", but to my knowledge nothing ever got back to the old man that we were in trouble. Everybody enjoyed it! FB: You also at this time currently met some AVG ground crew people who had actually quit. Can you tell us about that? CB: I believe this was in – on the way back we got into Calcutta, we wanted to be sure that the aircraft was in good enough commission and I remember we had to pick up a couple of Chinese pilots flying P-43's since I was going back, and we stayed there a few days and I recall – I don't recall the name of the airman, but a there were a few of them that we ran into in the Great Eastern Hotel in Calcutta. They were on their way back home and we found out they were just fed up and again this was that bad morale when you sit and you don't do anything, and boredom sets in and disgust and confusion, and drinking and so forth and so on and they just decided to quit and go home. FB: And what about once you got back and Chennault told you there were some problems with the pilots too. Apparently there was ……… CB: After we took off from Calcutta we went up to Dinjan and then that was a flight over the hump, flying in a P-43 leading these other guys in the P-40's, single engine airplanes and just dead reckoning navigation, and that's the first time I'd flown my own airplane across the hump. But just opposite Loiwing, as we were going to Kunming, the old man happened to be at Loiwing, he and third squadron was in deep combat and then also I think Tex Hill was second – sort of a conglomeration of first, second and third pilots and airplanes. Of course we were getting low on everything and they were getting hit continually by the Japanese still trying to wipe 'em out, pre the time of actually the ground troops trying to enter southern China. So the old man – I checked in with the 2 �Loiwing ground station instead of a P-43 was [???] communication boys to talk to someone and lo and behold the old man came on and told me to bring the airplanes into Loiwing and I remember distinctly contesting the old man. I think I said something like, "Are you Chennault?" and trying to identify and I made up my mind to sound like him. So we turned and we recovered all the airplanes at Loiwing and turned some of those new P-43's over to them, then the pilots picked up some of the weary ones and I stayed in my P-43 then we were going on to Kunming. We didn't stay at Loiwing too long, didn't get a chance to talk to the pilots except – we were so busy that talking about the intensity of the fighting and it seemed like they were getting over-powered and getting tired, of course, and out of supplies and then we got up to Kunming, after laying there and talking to the grounded pilots, I felt the same type of atmosphere as – getting tired, no action at Kunming and a few of the pilots were leaving and the ground crew too. FB: How did that affect you? CB: It was about this time, actually earlier, that we began to – after December 7th, 8th, we began amongst all of us to talk about possible induction, what's gonna happen to us. Here we are, an American volunteer group, what's gonna happen? We even questioned the old man at times, are we gonna be inducted. We began to hear rumors that he was gonna be inducted and become a brigadier general, and it was about that time that it happened, and this was another thing that sort of caused confusion – what's gonna happen to us. Some of the guys I think began to worry about that. I didn't wanna be inducted, personally. I wanted a regular commission. And is so turned out that I personally went to Chunking in the office of General Bissell personally and told him, "I'll stay here". I told the old man, if I get a regular commission – of course, he rarely dismissed me and said it'd take an Act of Congress. But this is the – I remember talking to a lot of the other pilots – a lot of us felt the same way. I think that had the representatives of the army air corps that came up, and I'm talking about colonel types and even General Bissell – I think if they had approached us in a different manner rather than than dominating, you're gonna do this and do that. 3 �Remember, a lot of these guys, they went to the AVG to get out of service. I remember personally myself that it a little bit demanding. We were tired, combat weary, no doubt, and he was talking to some war weary guys and we were low men on totem pole on supplies and I guess the old man had his problems too, in fact, I know he did. I saw weariness in his face. We were tired and morale was getting bad. Finally, later on [???] did talk to us and officially we were – I got off my subject. FB: We'll get into Bissell in a minute, I'll return to that. There's one other major incident that we'd like you to talk about. Apparently there's a period in May when 25 bombers caught the AVG by surprise at Paoshan and you managed to get a plane in the air but you got shot and you shot one bomber and you ran out of ammo, and then you were attacked by three Zeros and had to bail out on a Chinese cemetery? I that all accurate? If you could talk about that incident. CB: If I were asked what the most gratifying and satisfying event in my AVG life was and what the worst and most horrible catastrophic and traumatic incident in my AVG experience, I would mention the day at Rangoon that I shot three airplanes down and possibly a fourth one on one 30 or 40 minute combat mission. I was jubilant, but at Paoshan when I was shot down the first time in flames, I assure that was not only humiliating but pretty demoralizing, and I must confess it was my own fault. I made a lot of mistakes that a fighter pilot shouldn't make and I think it stemmed from utter confidence, supreme confidence, over confidence. I'll make a short story of this. As I say, at Kunming, we weren't getting in combat, but the third squadron and combination of third section and first squadron at Loiwing were just catching poundings from all directions and continuous and the old man had to do something. The ground troops, the Japanese army was approaching the southern border of China through Burma, and the old man decided that he needed a little bit more support in that quarter of the southern,. extreme southwestern tip of China. There was a little field called Paoshan just across the border from – Bob Neale came in one day and said, "We're gonna have some action". We 4 �took I think it was eight airplanes to Paoshan with a mission of – several missions really – to try to support the retreating Chinese, at least make an appearance over them. We didn't particularly care for that. Also air defense in a an air defense posture, strictly innocent posture. Also with a forthcoming efforts of some, last straw efforts, to stop the Japanese from penetrating the southern tip of China and entering the back door if you will. It would have been annihilating to China, so with those missions in mind, that's the reason he deployed us down there and eventually the outfit at Loiwing had to evacuate to another airfield closer up towards us at Paoshan, I forget where that was. But we lost eventually [???]. But in the meantime, we'd been there only a day or two at Paoshan and no warning at all. Bob Neale and I, I remember this very vividly, Bob Neale and I were cleaning our pistols in the alert shack and Bob Neale ran in and says, "The bombers are coming, or the Japs are coming, get in your airplane." We rushed out of course, and my airplane happened to be the closest one to the alert shack. As crew chief, I'd be all ready to start an airplane. We looked up and we could see the first wave of about 25 Japanese bombers in great big Vee. I'm told, later on I found out that a C54 type aircraft, a four engine airplane that we'd given the Japs earlier, was actually leading that bomber flight and the rest of them were Japanese bombers. But I didn't realize this at the time, didn't pay any attention to it. Bob Neale saw this all so he started shooting his pistol in the air and said, "Too late, get in your ditches, get in your ditches!" But I had already jumped in the airplane, engine was running. Sitting there and looking up and I thought, I can make it, I can make it. Then I was the only one in the airplanes. I disregarded Bob, number one mistake. I shoved the throttle forward, just sitting in the airplane, I hadn't had my seat belt on and my parachute not strapped in, my helmet not on, canopy open. As I stared down the grass field, I knew I wasn't gaining speed, my flaps were still down. I upped those, nearly nosed up as a result of that, but I finally got in the air and I just barely cleared the rocks at the end of the field, and then I realized that I wasn't strapped in. I got strapped in, seat belt, communications, helmet and oxygen mask. Then I was climbing up off to the 5 �left and at the same time looking around, keeping the bombers in sight, and I realized I wasn't gaining any altitude and my engine was heating up too. Suddenly it dawned on me, I hadn't even raised my landing gear. I upped my landing gear and I thought, "It's pretty warm [???]" I looked back and I saw a second wave of 25 bombers coming over. They were some 18,000 ft. at least. I remember I went 20,000 ft. to get above 'em eventually. I was too late to get to them so I figured I'd catch the second ones. The first 25 waves had already dropped all their bombs on the city rather than Paoshan. The city was flooded with refugees coming out of Burma, and the desolation there, I'll never forget it as long as I live after I drove through it later on. It was beautiful bombing, and it just decimated them. I finally got to altitude, about 2,000 ft. above the second wing, caught up with them, and I'm headed down toward the bomber. They dropped their bombs the same way. I remember getting in position and making the first runs on the extreme right hand guys. Formation – beautiful formation – 25 airplanes. I remember my tracers going in an airplane and I saw bits of the – one of the cowls flying off and I came back out to – making those passes – he began to drop off and smoke was coming out of him and I saw him go down towards the overcast – dense smoke – I figured he's done for, so I let him go, I figured I'd shot him down. Then I started after a second one. The second one began to pull off and he started some smoke coming out which was a bluish color and I had been warned about this tactic, that what he was doing was making like he was damaged. You always go after a lame duck so he kept me from going after the others. I started after him, but I was never sure I shot him down. Last time I saw him, he was going towards the overcast, but he was still [???] flying. I figured I'd gotten one for sure and one probable. I remember about that time getting ready to go up and make another pass. I started in on a pass, nothing happened. I'm convinced I had run out of ammunition. In my excitement, thinking I had 25 bombers coming and I'm just gonna eat 'em up, and here I'd run out of ammunition. I think also I was probably holding my purse too long. Again I got tumbling ammunition and inaccuracy. At any rate, it was time to go 6 �back, I'm not sure I know where I am low on gas. I turned around and come back and I forgot completely in my excitement and jubilation about knocking a bomber down and all and coming back and successful and all, I finally found out where I was. I even felt greater then. I came down across the field. Never thinking about fighters possibly involved, and it made sense, here's such an attack, they didn't need fighters. I tried to call a ground radio station but that character was in a ditch so I couldn't get any response. I thought before I land I'll just make my victory roll and I came down and buzzed the field in a victory roll and then I turned around to make my traffic pattern, normal traffic pattern. I thought I'll widen my traffic pattern to fly over the city to see the damage which was disastrous. I became completely entrapped in that while I was making my – and then towards my approach to the field, throttling back, put my flaps down, my wheels down, and as I started putting my wheels down, I heard a loud explosion. I thought, gee, that's my hydraulic system. I'd been having trouble with my hydraulic system or landing gear. Then I reached down to recycle it and then I pulled my hand back. I looked down – it was fire coming out from the rear. Then I knew something, I turned and looked back and it was three Zeros right on my tail. I hunched – I remember hunching to get my [???] up behind my armor plate because the shells, the ammo had gone through my fuselage tank which was right in the back that had emptied fuel but had [???] fumes but was a perfect thing for explosion. That's what exploded and then the flames began to become to curl around my legs up in the cockpit. Just for a split second, I gave up. Just for a split second I gave up. Then I thought, you can't do that. Then I thought, I'm out of ammunition – this is all much faster than I can tell it. I remember pulling back the – rolling back the windshield. Then I said, "The flames kept getting closer so I unbuckled my seat belt. 7 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Bond_Charles_1991-02-23_v10 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bond, Charles R., Jr. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-23 Title A name given to the resource Charlie Bond interview (video and transcript, 10 of 12), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Charlie Bond by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Charles R. "Charlie" Bond was Vice Squadron Leader of the First Pursuit Squadron "Adam and Eves" of the American Volunteer Group (AVG). Recruited by Skip Adair in 1941, he was inspired by photos of shark-mouthed Tomahawks of No. 112 Sqadron, RAF. He was the first to paint his P-40 in similar markings, setting the precedent for what became the trademark of the Flying Tigers. He shot down six Japanese fighters and one bomber. After the AVG disbanded, he rejoined the US Army Air Forces School of Applied Tactics to train new fighter pilots. In this tape, Bond discusses the period when the pilots were concerned over the future of the American Volunteer Group and their possible induction, in addition to the most memorable event in his life in the AVG that took place at Paoshan. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d848417cd17597604a4404f87de8436a.mp4 e9b8c2f516221d1f10c495910f624a2b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8aba6e9b2d9d079b37031265eb3a3ab4.pdf c40edd976b90437df783692256f05bfd PDF Text Text RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Charles Bond Date of Interview: February 23, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 11] CB: Then I made up my mind I said, "I've gotta get out of this, so I rolled back my canopy to get it all the way back, then I leaned forward and unbuckled my seat belt to get away from the fire because it began to come up around my back, it was already around here, then I closed my eyes and went through the procedure of half roll. I figured when I got to the half roll. By the way, I was pulled up because I was on my approach from about 200 ft. Later on, the guys told me I got up about 500 ft. When I thought I was on my back I just turned lose the stick to get out. Actually I'd only turned over about 90 degrees, but when I leaned out, the wind blast pulled me out and I had forgotten to disconnect my radio linkage and that pulled into my neck that flesh was already burned and tore. That was the biggest injury I had of that. But it tore lose, but I couldn't feel any of that. I was just interested in getting out of the airplane. I missed the tail surface and the next thing I knew I was tumbling because I saw the sky and then the ground so then I reached over and pulled the ripcord and instantly it opened up and by the time I was about 50 ft. off the ground. I slowed down enough and hit in a rice paddy area that had just been ploughed up and [???] for a foot and a half in diameter and I hit and rolled over on my back. I got out of my parachute, then I started running to get behind something – I was afraid they'd strafe me. I ran through a wet rice paddy area and one of my boots came off, sucked in mud. I realized I was in a cemetery. The Chinese bury their people in a dome, several feet high, and I was running – was gonna run over to get behind one of them and look at these Zeros. These three Zeros began to circle and I was afraid they'd strafe me, at least I could stay behind the dome. Then I felt something burning on my back, and I realized that my 1 �coveralls were burning and it was a little strange, so I laid down in that and then got up and I looked at my hands and of course they'd begun to swell up and burn, then I felt my head – something on my head – I reached up and one of the bullets had just managed to pass by the armor plate, just enough to tear open my cloth helmet and graze my head where it started bleeding, a little cut. When I brought my hand down, it was blood on it and I thought, I've had it. The next thing I thought was, they're gonna strafe me so I got hunkered down behind one of these domes. Then I saw a Chinaman coming towards me, he had one hand behind his back. They were out in the field too, for the bombing raid, they'd gone to the cemetery. Just a Chinese coolie. I started going through the motion of a telephone. When the Chinese talk on the telephone, they always say, "Wa! Wa! Wa! Wa! Wa! Wa! And their inflection means something different. So I went through that routine. He stopped and then I guess it finally dawned on him that I wasn't a Jap, so he dropped his hand down and it had a huge rock in it. Then he came on over towards me and he realized that – he looked at me and finally motioned for me to follow him. I was right off the edge of the airfield, so he took me up to the edge of the airfield where there was a bunch of huts and that's where I got to a phone. Then they called somebody and I eventually got a hold of Doc Richards, and he was on the other side of the city in a hostel, and of course he came over in a jeep and by the time he got to me, I was in shock and everything else, and making comments that I thought I was gonna die. I'd like to go back to – and to me, nowadays when I think back at this, the very key thing that happened when I bailed out, I was so afraid that my parachute wouldn't open, I was so afraid that they were gonna strafe me, that I openly aloud, prayed to God, "Save me, God save me." Of course, I remember 'em strafing either Izzy? Morton or somebody in a parachute down at Rangoon and I guess the Lord did save me. FB: Can we pause for a second? CB: For me, it's worth relating from a standpoint of aerial combat was when I was shot down a second time, where I made a few mis – not really mistakes, over confidence. Then on a 2 �– really a funny episode that might be worthwhile describing what happened in China as a result of the war – of all the airmen talking to us at great length about, "You've got to go down and see the red light district." So one night, Bob Neale and I said, "Okay, let's go." That was something. And I assure you, we just walked through it. FB: This all came at around this time, right? Bissell arrived, General Bissell arrived and he made a speech to your group. Can you describe that? CB: I'm not sure exactly what time Bissell came onto the scene, but it was during this – as the buildup began to build up in our minds as rumors and speculations and all, what's gonna happen to us, he showed up in Chunking, and of course he was the Supreme Air Force type commander, over Chennault and he and Stillwell were sort of opposites, army and air corps. They were interested, hindsight now, that I'm talking about. General Hap Arnold was interested in getting our outfit [??] over there. The old man, he wanted to keep us, he wanted replenishments and just sort of continue on and continue on as a fighting unit because of the experience we had, rather than just be completely replaced. But he, General Chennault, he knew our morale situation and he knew we were tired and I give him full credit, he gave complete compassionate consideration to our situation and didn't – "You do what you want to do." I'll never forget him for that and he told each one of us that. As a matter of fact he told us, "I don't blame you". But he was gonna stay, he was already a Brigadier General. I think it was the first time we had one of the air force representatives talk to us. General Bissell decided to come down and talk to us from Chunking, and we had a big meeting, sort of a dinner type banquet and then General Bissell made a talk to us with the idea of trying to influence us to stay and be inducted on the spot without a lot of explanation of really how it would be done, what will happen to each one of you all, and of course, there were a lot of questions in mind, whether we'd get promoted or what. At that time I was making $750 a month and $500 for every airplane I shot down and being inducted back as Second Lieutenant, reserve. I couldn't see it. And this was the way a lot of the other guys – a lot of them knew I wanted a regular 3 �commission. They'd heard me say outright, "If I get a regular commission, I ought to stay in." A lot of them I know told me. I remember "Buster" Keeton definitely saying this to me one time. And Bob Neale talked the same way. But the way General Bissell talked to us – I remember I didn't become outraged but I thought it just wasn't fair. So he didn't impress us very much. FB: What did he say? CB: He talked in terms of, patriotism, duty. In a way it was a fair speech, but the insinuation or the inference that we got – tired, demoralized guys, naturally seeking a negative reaction if you will, I admit probably that was an element. It was too much of a demanding thing for us, and looking back, I know at the time I was saying, "I'd stay right now if you'd give me a regular commission". But the other guys, "I ain't about to go back, I'm tired and I wanna go home." Some said they wanna go home first but they'd come back. But the short, brief, to a certain extent, inconsiderate, not near the approach General Chennault had talked to us about, it just left a lot of us cold. I remember distinctly discussions with some of the other guys later on we decided amongst us, "I'm mad." It didn't go over. FB: What did you do the last days? July 4th was approaching. What was that like? CB: After that the old man –the Japanese tried to cross the river and he used primarily Tex Hill's outfit, a combination of a lot of the first, second and third squadrons with actual bomber – we had some makeshift type bombers – put 'em on the bottom of the P-40, particularly the P-40E. Looking back now I think that's the reason the old man had me bring those P-40E's into Loiwing, with that in mind. I wrote in my book I remember – this wasn't necessarily my own idea or thought but I've read since there's been a lot others thought – the only thing that kept the Japanese from successfully invading southern China, across one bridge, across that deep, mild deep gorge, the Salween river, was that one little bridge – was the logistics problem of getting tanks and everything across that one bridge, that bottle-neck choke point, and a handful of P-40's that began to bomb his 4 �columns on the hairpin turns of the roads going down, and coming up on the other side, plus the bridge itself, just completely destroyed their effort. And I think, looking back now, the world situation was taking on a different strategic aspect. The Japanese were taking a pounding by that point by the United States Navy in the Pacific and they began to change their tune a little. And I think that was one of the reasons. The change in the world situation and the Pacific. The logistic problems of that bridge and supplying and the roads for the supplies, and a handful of P-40's. I'll never forget that's where we lost Bob Little, either a bomb didn't get off his rack and exploded or ground fire tore a wing off, but one of the wings tore off and he didn't have time to get out. Then after that, the old man had to pull the airplanes back, we were through there. Then we had to re-orient ourselves in accordance with the Japanese re-orientation to come in from Hankow and the Pacific and then take China again from the east. So we deployed some of us up to Chunking then to Kweilin. At Kweilin I was shot down again, but it wasn't near as bad as the first time. I belly-landed and got out with a score on my head. Then after that it was a matter of meeting the Induction Board at operations, saying, "No, I'm not going to stay". I'll never forget that last deal with the old man came to Kweilin and this was just before July 4th which was supposed to be the last day of the AVG, then [???] goes home, except for the ones that agreed to stay. The old man asked through Bob Neale – Bob Neale came in to us and I sensed something was going on and he says, "The old man has asked for volunteers to stay over another, I think it was two weeks" – to give the 23rd Fighter Group at the time I think it was, which included guys from the regular army air corps from India, to replace us with new P-40E's and all coming in, but they were slow in getting over there and the Japanese were well aware of all this and that's when they moved navy pilots into Han Kal area to completely wipe us out, and the old man knew the pressure on him and a lot of us, including me was just heart-broken. But I couldn't say now and a lot of the others couldn't say no. I think it was 20 of us volunteered to stay over another two weeks, and a lot of airmen. And that was nip and tuck too, I didn't have 5 �any close shaves after that. In late July, determined to go home, I got on a Gooneyird at Kweilin and started my trek back to the United States. FB: Did you have a difficult time getting back? Some of the guys had some problems getting back. CB: The standpoint of getting back, I didn't even worry about it. I'd heard stories about guys previously – as a matter of fact, one of the colonels in the – old Tex Sanders, I knew him back in the States, he was on the induction board back in Kweilin. "Charlie", he said, "I knew you were going to stay over here aren't you?" He said, "You know, going back home on a boat, a submarine would probably sink it." I remember making a comment, I said, "Look Tex, what I've been through, that's the least thing that worries me." I had heard, a lot of them were gonna ask to go back on a boat. A lot of them had been talking to the, I think it was Pan Am that had been flying airplanes were beginning to supply China and some of buddies were flying those airplanes – I knew some of them and they had already made contact with them in order to get back in, maybe an airline, and maybe Pan Am would sign on with them or maybe CNAC. They'd be getting air transportation home. But I didn't even really think about that until I got up into Kweilin – no it was Chunking, where Skip Adair was and we were gonna say the old man good-bye there and Skip Adair asked Bob Neale and I – I told Bob Neale, I said, "Why don't we go together?" We'd been together as Commander and Vice Commander, and inseparable. When we got go Chunking, talking to Skip Adair, he asked us off the side, whether we'd be willing to help Red Petach get back. Her husband had been killed and she was pregnant. Of course we said yes. With that, we took off and told the old man good-bye, and you can imagine how that was. Never forget it. We finally got to Calcutta and there you know, we said, "Well, what do we do?" So we all holed up the British hotel and fortunately, I had some old friends, colonel types, including Colonel Naiden who was a full Colonel at Langley Field when I was a brand new Second Lieutenant. He was Commander of the 10th Air Force at New Delhi, and Colonel Charlie Caldwell who I was 6 �very close to at Langley Field, they were full colonels and generals and I was brazen enough to talk to Bob, and I said, "Let's go up to New Delhi, see what we can do there. We got on a little train, we all went up to New Delhi and I went straight to headquarters, ran into Charlie Caldwell and of course, we just latched on to each other, and told him, and I'll remember for the rest of my life, he got in, got me an audience with General Naiden and General Naiden remembered me at Langley Field and I pleaded my case and I told him, I said, "By the way, we've got Mrs. Petach with us and her husband was killed, they got married several months ago and she's pregnant, and we're taking her back." He said, "I'll see what I can do." So ended up, he didn't even send a wire to General Arnold, he called personally on the telephone. We got a wire back from General Arnold, it says, "Bond, Neale and Petach full privileges all the way home." So, that's the way we got home. FB: Could you tell us about … 7 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Bond_Charles_1991-02-23_v11 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bond, Charles R., Jr. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-23 Title A name given to the resource Charlie Bond interview (video and transcript, 11 of 12), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Charlie Bond by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Charles R. "Charlie" Bond was Vice Squadron Leader of the First Pursuit Squadron "Adam and Eves" of the American Volunteer Group (AVG). Recruited by Skip Adair in 1941, he was inspired by photos of shark-mouthed Tomahawks of No. 112 Sqadron, RAF. He was the first to paint his P-40 in similar markings, setting the precedent for what became the trademark of the Flying Tigers. He shot down six Japanese fighters and one bomber. After the AVG disbanded, he rejoined the US Army Air Forces School of Applied Tactics to train new fighter pilots. In this tape, Bond describes his survival after the combat in Paoshan, the meeting between the Flying Tigers and General Bissell, and the last days of the AVG. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a376850e3c717a295deb5475b5401662.mp4 a17165360420fc9368bbe72f4c0e3c7e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/67cc6d9ebec6b367654853825edd4be1.pdf 0e03ac9b5da2150519b1ca61552df627 PDF Text Text RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Charles Bond Date of Interview: February 23, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 12] FB: …shot down, if you could explain about that? CB: The second time we were shot down was in Kweilin where we again were to speak in from Chunking and with a lot of P-40's – we had not been to Kweilin before – to catch again some of the training missions from Hanoi against Kweilin and catch them with all of our P-40's by surprise and just blast them out of the air, and sure enough, they came up the second day and they had a surprise for us too. They knew we were there. We had twelve airplanes and I lowest one at about 16,000 and four more at eight and I think Bob Neale was twelfth at 18,000. Joe Rosbert was on my wing in that flight and we had ground communications and we they kept telling us to come in, come in, and I didn't at first see the first wave of bombers. Joe saw it and Joe came up to – and he fired his guns, and I looked over and then I saw them. As we started off toward that formation, I saw another one, another formation of bombers up ahead. To the best of my memory, I think I turned to go against them because I was in the better flying position against them. Of course, the other guys stayed with me for our attack position. This time, Bob Neale – I forget who the other leader – but they knew we were in combat and starting in after this formation of four bombers – I had a P40E with a 450 sten, and I was fully confident. I was over my first shooting down – I was over that – I was just gonna start on number one, two, three and four and just blast 'em out of the sky with the other guys on my wing. The next thing I knew, I had return fire, obviously. My press tone light turned on yellow and my peg went clear over. Then I knew that I to get – and I turned off and looked up. There was an I-97 fighter escort appeared on the scene and a flight of brand new twin 1 �engined fighters – that was the first time a Japanese flew into the war against us. But I didn't get involved with them though the other guys did. I looked back the field, that's how close we were. The Japanese fighters were straight over the field so I knew I couldn't go in there. But I had to get away from these fighters that were coming down on my tail. We could go into a 450–480 miles per hour power dive but I kept pulling back on the throttle to keep my prop from freezing – I knew it was gonna burn up soon. I just had to stay away from them, and I stayed out of the range. Steam was coming from my airplane and suddenly my prop just froze – blades were sticking up in front of me. About that time, the fighters pulled off. They saw this too, they knew they had me, so they pulled off and left me. I began to look for a place to belly land. Suddenly it dawned on me, "Hell, I'm too low to bail out again." So I picked a place in a rice paddy to land. I belly landed, threw my head against the gun site, scratched my head a little, but got out and walked away from it. Some coolies in the rice field got me to another phone, got me in town, had to walk about 5 miles. A Chinese missionary bandaged my head, gave me a fire-crackers hero's parade, got me on a train. When I got back to Kweilin, General Chennault was there but at the time, when I got back, his comment was, "Charlie, you're having hard luck aren't you?" FB: Could you describe in Paoshan the death and the damage that you saw at Paoshan. You talked about it earlier. We want more detail about what you experienced there. CB: When Doc Richards got to me in this little shack there close to the airfield, I was in shock. He looked at me and the first thing he did was, he gave me a shot. He [???] that glass thing and he gave me shot of Morphine. I was in shock. He looked down, and I had an air force ring on my hand that had already started swelling. I was walking back and forth in pain. I remember saying, "I wanna die, I wanna die." The Chinese were just standing there watching me. He said, "Charlie, that ring's got to come off." When he pulled the ring off, all the skin came off of it. The only thing we had then for burns was gentian violet, a purple salve. Which you have to wear off eventually – it just has to wear 2 �off. He took my coveralls off and smeared me all over with gentian violet. My eyebrows and eyelashes were gone. There deep burn back there and in my hands third degree burns here, and my back, my coveralls were smoldering. I had three big – about the size of pancakes on my shoulder blade. He doctored all that, and by then the dope began to take effect. By then Bob Neale showed up in a jeep. I forgot to mention, Bob Little got in the air in a P-40, that they didn't strafe, and I remember when I was crouching behind that ???, I saw him on the tail of a Zero going past the field but that didn't particularly thrill me, I was too much in pain. FB: That's fine. In Paoshan itself – hold on for a second ……………… CB: After Bob Neale got there, Doc Richards said, "Charlie, we'll take you over to the hostel." About that time, a phone rang and he got a call. He had to be back to Swartz who had been – no it wasn't Swartz – I'll think of his name later on. They wanted him over there because he was – a Chinese doctor was gonna amputate his leg, he wanted to see Doc Richards so I told Doc Richards to go. So Bob Little and Neale got in a jeep and we started heading – to drive through the city of Paoshan to get to the hostel, and I'll never forget it as long as I live, the bombing of the city, just utter destruction. The people just milling about. The bombing was over but fires every place. We constantly had to shoot our pistols to get the Chinese out of the way to make progress down the road. At times we'd have to stop and move debris from the road. And I remember one scene of a Chinese woman on her knees next to her dead husband with a baby in her arms, mourning the death of her husband and I remember another occasion where, I though Bob Neale and Bob Little were gonna upchuck several times. But I was full of dope and I just was just looking at it numbly. But I remember so distinctly, we had to stop one time – Bob Little got out to move a piece of burning timber and as he moved it, the head of a Chinese woman rolled out across in front of us and that's when I thought Bob was gonna lose his cookies. But we drove through all of that and were just complete desolation. I saw war at its worst and I'll never forget it and the smell of burning flesh you'll never 3 �forget. I saw Chinese bodies that were burned so badly, their lips pulled back from their teeth showing, and arms and legs missing, and I'm glad I had the dope in me. Finally we got to the hostel. FB: Would you describe for us the last good-bye with General Chennault? CB: Bob Neale and I as I told you, were taking Red home, and after having a session with Skip Adair, Bob Neale and I and Fox, I forget Fox's first name, one of the greatest crew chiefs we had in the entire AVG, we three went up to Chennault's quarters to tell him good-bye, and Fox folded up – he just cried like a baby. Bob Neale shook hands with the old man and he was really emotionally affected. I looked at the old man and I shook hands with him, and I don't remember the exact words but I know I was full of emotion. I told him good-bye, and I remember him saying – he looked at Bob and I and Fox and said, "You guys get back and tell 'em what we did over here." He asked for us to please to get supplies to him. Then, Skip and I and Bob went to his room and I think we got loaded and I never saw General Chennault after that, except one time, and that's when I met him at Cairo at the Cairo Conference, right after the Turin Conference, where I was Ambassador Harriman's pilot in Russia and his Aide, and the Cairo Conference was held to make plans for Russia to enter the war against Japan, and he was there with Generalissimo, and it was a much better meeting. FB: Looking back on that period of time, what do you consider your own personal – your personal accomplishment with the AVG? CB: That's simple to answer. The first immediately is I accomplished my three objectives, not immediately, but I had gotten in fighters, and had been in combat. I had the experience, and that subsequently I proved to General Hap Arnold in his office. I had made enough money. All my money, like I told you – at the end I was making $750 a month and I only drew $100 to live, and all that was being deposited in the National Bank of Fort [???] in Houston, and I felt confident, in spite of what Colonel Bissell told me, that I couldn't get a regular commission, taken an act of congress. I just knew that I had to get that done, 4 �and subsequently I did in 1947 Defense Department Act, where the air force ended up awarding a lot people. I was promoted to a full Colonel, permanent regular commission. So I achieved all of those. The other – there's a lot of things. I learned so much about what makes a successful military unit. The first thing that comes to mind is no doubt. It's spirit. It's spirit. Nothing can match the spirit of a man. Second of course, it's the winning. Our first combat was just a miraculous success, we were on the right road, we were fully confident. We were already unbeatable, but we were still green – I got shot down twice. The confidence of winning at first, and then, at one time in January and February at Rangoon, I remember, we shot down 23 Japs and never lost one, in one day. That type of experience – you just become completely confident. You realize that you can't be beat, and then the other two elements was the intelligence that General Chennault had at his hand from the Chinese, of knowing exactly what our enemy was, what his weaknesses were, and then he designed the tactics and told us to use – which was definitely a secret to our success. And the other ones now – how would you like to be given the privilege of going across the United States and picking who you wanted out of the existing forces, navy and army and marines, and taking them over into a unit, and without the regulations and all where you had freedom – airmen had freedom to tear a corporator to pieces and did it, and if he didn't, he'd learn on the spot of doing it. It's all of that. The terrific support that we had out of those airmen, backed up by the Chinese to do the dirty business. It was spirit, our success at the start, and continually the success, but eventually we were worn out, worn out. FB: I've got one last question for you. Did you get that house for your parents? CB: Yes. Thank you for reminding me of that. You bet I bought it for them. As a matter of fact, I can tell you specifically. I had 15,000 bucks in the bank and this was in 1942. I got home in mid-August, and after going to Pentagon, and personally talking to General Hap Arnold in his office for a regular commission and him saying the same things, "We can't do it Charlie, it'd take an Act of Congress, but tell me how you guys did in a P-40." He 5 �was under pressure from the press about why is Zero greater than a P-40, I'm sure that's the only reason I got his audience. I spent 30 minutes telling him about that, and then I went home, and within – I alerted my mother and father – "Look you start looking for a place." And within one month after I got there, I bought a little 2 bedroomed house for them right out near Hemsley Air Force Base in West Dallas and I think I only paid $4,500 for that house. FB: It's a pleasure talking to you sir, it was a pleasure talking to you. 6 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Bond_Charles_1991-02-23_v12 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bond, Charles R., Jr. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-23 Title A name given to the resource Charlie Bond interview (video and transcript, 12 of 12), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Charlie Bond by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Charles R. "Charlie" Bond was Vice Squadron Leader of the First Pursuit Squadron "Adam and Eves" of the American Volunteer Group (AVG). Recruited by Skip Adair in 1941, he was inspired by photos of shark-mouthed Tomahawks of No. 112 Sqadron, RAF. He was the first to paint his P-40 in similar markings, setting the precedent for what became the trademark of the Flying Tigers. He shot down six Japanese fighters and one bomber. After the AVG disbanded, he rejoined the US Army Air Forces School of Applied Tactics to train new fighter pilots. In this tape, Bond describes his last goodbye with General Chennault and his personal accomplishments during his time as a Flying Tiger. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b2e1fa64f68658c723e79042d1c45cd6.mp4 05f8d1bc9d233460d9c5a5609a8e4f94 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fd07889c47fe6f4f4043a67810150497.pdf a5ee40cfc2ac2009690f16319a8fe2fb PDF Text Text RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Charles Bond Date of Interview: February 23, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 2] CB: …it was wild. There were two or three times – as a matter of fact after some hours at the bar before going to bed on two or three occasions there were brawls. I remember seeing one of the marine guys, Smith, next morning I saw him at breakfast, he had a split lip. Obviously he'd been in a fight and I found out later on – I think it was George Burguard hit him but they were both drunk and neither one of them remembered it. There was a lot of planning for the crossing of the equator which – we call it Neptune day and I learned later on from the other guys they did the same thing, so we planned a party for the group and this really turned out wild. Of course, there was a lot of drinking with it, the crew had put a swimming pool in one of the hatches of the ship with a tarpaulin around of course, and we had planned the celebration at the swimming pool and I ended up somehow or another writing the script for it and I turned out to be the queen of Neptune and I believe Gunvordahl or – I forget, maybe, no, it wasn't Dick Ross, one of the them was king, and we had a barber. Now the barber used a normal kitchen mop for washing dishes as the shaving brush and the shaving lotion was a concoction that you could smell ten feet from the guy that was carrying it. It was in a huge pail and we'd usually grab anyone at random, usually the guy that was most crocked and we would put him in the so-called barber's chair – and of course you had to hold him – first we'd smear him with this horrible concoction of dead fish, flour, you name it, and obviously always he'd holler and the first thing the mop would go in his mouth and I think a lot of the guys threw up and it was horrible smelling and of course, a lot of that got in the swimming pool, then ultimately all of us would get in the swimming pool, and finally, one of the guys, I guess it was revenge, got a hold of me and threw me in and somehow or another I got entangled 1 �in the net that we had used as a volleyball net by the way crossing for polo in the swimming pool. I got tangled up in that net and I felt sure I was gonna drown, but fortunately I untangled myself and got up above the water. But it turned out to be one of the wildest events we had and I assure you that next morning there was nobody for breakfast. FB: There was also quieter things that happened, I understand there was church service on board too. CB: Yes, you know, sitting on a lounge chair on the deck of a boat, I'd never experienced before, but I remember that I did it a lot just to have a good old sun bath, bask in the sun and sleep a little, take a nap and all, and in between one of the Javanese boys would bring up maybe a cup of tea, and snack; you had a lot of time to think and – where we were going, what we've done and all, and listening to other guys and exchanging stories – "Gee, Joe, what are you going over for? Charlie, what are you going over for? And "Do you think we're doing the right thing?" And we'd talk philosophically about it, then we'd exchange stories about the girlfriends we were leaving – "Are you going to get married when you get back?" "Oh, no", "Oh, yeah". And then finally, "Gee, we've got to do something about our bellies. We were gaining weight, every one of us was gaining weight, we didn't have enough exercise, so we developed a – we called it a "ring game". It's like tennis or volleyball except you threw a ring back and forth and that really got a lot of us in shape, besides walking around the deck, and on Sunday, we had [???] we had some American missionaries, God-fearing gentlemen going back to China and also some Chinese returning to China. Some of us actually – and I remember doing this for about a week – I'd studied lessons in Chinese with the idea of learning the Chinese language, but I rapidly lost interest – this thing's impossible – a few of the other guys did the same thing. On Sunday morning service – there were a lot of us in church – it was difficult to pay attention to the minister talking, thinking about the things we'd just done the previous 2 �day, there was no relation whatsoever. But it, amazingly, most of us on board ship did attend those services. FB: What kind of things were going through your mind while you were in the service? CB: Say again. FB: What kind of things were going through your mind while you were in the church? There's a reference to "Rock of Ages" and you were thinking about your mom CB: When I'd go to church, most of my thoughts would go back – carry me back to my mother, bless her heart, her stamina in taking care of six kids and then – we lived during the time of the depression – here I was about 27 years old and recalling the days of the depression and her greatest strength was her religion and she took us kids to church and so forth and I'd go back and think of her a lot and here I was attending services and, I must admit – looking back now – I think that it really helped and right now I could say I'm glad I did it because looking back now, knowing what I do now, it did tend to lift me and give us some moral. I think it probably helped a little too in our life aboard the ship. It was different, it was – looking back now, I knew that I was a little bit closer to God. FB: Before you left to go to China, what did you actually tell your parents you were gonna do? CB: When I had made up my mind to go to China and be with Chennault and AVG, naturally I told my parents about it and my brothers and sisters and Doris, who ultimately I married, I told them the very three reasons that I wanted to go to China, and I told them that I would be back after one year and to worry about me. At that time I had now idea of the intensity of the combat we would ultimately be involved in, probably fortunately. I would still have gone but I did my best to relieve them of any anxiety because my mom and dad had never been out of the United States, as a matter of fact, hadn't been very far out of state of Texas and my sisters and brothers – older brothers, younger brothers – and I let 'em all know I'd miss 'em. I remember shedding a few tears when I told my mother and dad goodbye, but I felt good about it and I told 'em I'd write 'em and thank goodness I 3 �did, and they wrote me. As a matter of fact we ultimately sent wires back and forth, and they'd read – when we got in combat over there – they'd read stories about it, and of course, they were very proud. FB: The trip over had a few stops, like the ship would dock at certain places, can you tell us a [??] about that? CB: The trip from San Francisco to Rangoon took a long time; first stop was Honolulu. We were allowed to go to shore about eight hours there and the most interesting thing there I remember is in one of the hotels, I was with a group of my buddies and one of them was old Pappy Boyington and we got sloshed but we just barely got back to the boat in time and it took us about a day or two to get over that, and then we had a long, long leg of the journey after that, that sail down past Christmas Island then around Australia with our first stop at Sarabaya, Java, the navy base for the Dutch there. We stayed there about three or four days, actually we stayed there about a week, and George and Jim and I in a bar one night met a local guy that said he would take us to the island of Bali. The island of Bali was a very fantastic – it was a fairyland really and the stories we'd heard of the – the women there supposedly didn't wear anything above the waist so we talked to this guy and he says, yeah, he'd take us over there. This turned out to be a wild side trip in an automobile that was driven – I think his name was Benny – at any rate, the wild ride through the roads of Java, then a boat trip across a straight where we loaded his little car on the boat and at night sailed across about a three mile straight and landed at the other side in the valley, and then up to a camp – it was a country club supposedly, and of all people who was running it, a blond headed Californian, so we felt perfectly at home, and we had a wonderful time on the beach and stayed there about two days, then the trip back which was equally wild. I guess we must have killed ten or fifteen chickens, one or two goats and probably just barely missed a lot of ladies, but we got back to Sarabaya, and lo and behold the boat had already sailed to go further up to the coast of Batavia, so the only we could do was get on a little narrow gauge railroad and catch the boat up at Batavia. 4 �Smitty, Smith was Curtis Smith, the ranking guy, military wise, so he was sort of boss – he jumped on us a lot for not showing up, but it was a terrific side trip. Then from there we were going along finally to Singapore. Singapore two or three days where we took a side trip to the little principality of Singapore where I remember sitting – or going through a room where this guy could serve a dinner for guests of a 125 people in settings of pure gold. And we passed by rubber factories and all – very interesting side trip. Then from there we went on up and finally arrived at Rangoon. FB: Now at this point you've had a lot of time to think about what you were going to be getting into, what you were going to see when you arrived in this exotic land. What did you actually find? CB: On the way over, I wondered and wondered what I'd be getting into, what Burma would look like, where we would train, and what China would look like, the people and so forth. Arriving at the port of Rangoon and getting my first glimpse of the city, port side, and then in the background, the golden domes of French – there's a ???domed pagoda right there at Rangoon, one of the largest in Burma. It was so strange and it made – everything was exciting. The smells and odors I had never sensed before in this foreign harbor which was typical of the middle east. The people, generally smaller than the Americans, much darker of course, and some just almost black. The streets and the homes, architecture and all was considerably different. I remember making a lot of entries in the diary about the difference of the country and then the little railroad that we used, the little narrow gauge railroad and the cars that we got on to go up some 160 miles to Toungoo in the center of Burma where we trained, it was like a local streetcar in a town. It must have stopped every fifteen or twenty miles. Very boring but very interesting. It was just different from anything I could imagine. FB: Once you arrived at the base, describe what you saw and what your reaction was, your feelings about finally getting there. 5 �CB: At Rangoon when we first landed, Skip Adair, Eric Schilling and one or two others of the previous group who had arrived had come down to greet us, and I remember Pawley – Mr. Pawley who was one of the top men of CAMCO, Central American Manufacturing Company, he even met us, and by the way, the first time we got paid, and sure enough he paid us what they said we'd get. As a side comment you might say that we knew we wouldn't need much money over there and most of us, practically all of us had made arrangements to just draw so much money and then have CAMCO, through their offices, deposit our remaining salaries in banks back in the United States. For instance, I had my money deposited in the Bank of [???] Houston in San Antonio, where I'd begun to use a banking service for a measly $125 a month – actually $75 a month as a flying cadet actually. But to get back to the point, going to Toungoo, Burma, when we get out the station there at Toungoo, we had another Studebaker station wagon meet us and I think Eric travelled on up with us on the train, and I remember the first thing coming to Kyedaw Airport where we were gonna train there, it was an RAF base, was the barbed wire around it. It wasn't the cyclone type of fence, it was just barbed wire, like around an old cattle ranch in the state of Texas. And a guard, a British guard – actually a Burmese in the British army, standing guard at the gate with a rifle. But no problem, we drove on in and then I saw a hangar. I got a glimpse of a paved runway, and then a glimpse of the rattan walled, Burma thatched – palm thatched roof of the little dormitories we were gonna be in. No windows, just open. Then they dropped us off there, we took our baggage and found bunks, cots with mosquito bars on 'em that we'd be using. Like a typical army barracks if you will but wide open to the rain and the wind and the heat and the mosquitoes. And then after we got settled there they took us to the flight line where we had typical operations shacks. One – only one hangar and the P-40's I first saw, a P40, and I remember thinking, Oh, I'm back in fighters. Then meeting the other group of people and then seeing an airplane, a P-40 come in and land and all, and I began to get excited then, and I was glad. 6 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Bond_Charles_1991-02-23_v02 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bond, Charles R., Jr. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-23 Title A name given to the resource Charlie Bond interview (video and transcript, 2 of 12), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Charlie Bond by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Charles R. "Charlie" Bond was Vice Squadron Leader of the First Pursuit Squadron "Adam and Eves" of the American Volunteer Group (AVG). Recruited by Skip Adair in 1941, he was inspired by photos of shark-mouthed Tomahawks of No. 112 Sqadron, RAF. He was the first to paint his P-40 in similar markings, setting the precedent for what became the trademark of the Flying Tigers. He shot down six Japanese fighters and one bomber. After the AVG disbanded, he rejoined the US Army Air Forces School of Applied Tactics to train new fighter pilots. In this tape, Bond discusses the experiences aboard the Boschfontein including their stops in Honolulu and Singapore, in addition to their eventual arrival in Rangoon. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/82d89d0bd3257ae0a99b3b9adb874357.mp4 f9fdafd1d58f297d57dc3613b79f465b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8d1bec4123d524b4654c5502c93f019a.pdf d80dcafda09d392008f894fbce08d075 PDF Text Text RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Charles Bond Date of Interview: February 23, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 3] CB: After getting settled in the so-called barracks and going over to the flight line to get indoctrination and learning where you'll have a parachute and where our aircraft would be parked and ultimately the first, second and third Pursuit squadrons where they'd have their area on the ramp and the one runway for some 4,000 ft. runway and where the old man, Colonel Chennault – of course at that time the old man, Colonel Chennault, the boss, that's what we called him and ultimately I met him, but before he gave us really a reception, an orientation speech, sort of a: "This is what we are, this is what we're going to do and ultimately we're gonna do this", I naturally began … FB: Stop there. If you could just tell us about some of the first – after you got settled in, before you met Chennault, your impressions of some of the guys you met, whether there were some that you recognized and what was the camaraderie like. CB: It turned out that when they assigned us to squadrons, Jim and George, George Burguard and Jim Cross and I ended up in the first Pursuit squadron. The Operations Officer was Frank Schiel, whom I had heard of back in the States but it was the first time I had really met him, a fighter pilot from the United States Army Air Corp and I remember the first briefing I got on the P-40 was old Eric Schilling and I had known Eric at Virginia Langley Air Force Base. He was in the Eighth Pursuit Group, I was in the Second. Eric I think remembered me but not as well as I remembered him, because he had a nickname. He was called Mortimer Snerd at Langley Air Force Base and it's only been just a few days ago that I really learned why, but I leave that up to Eric to explain that to you. He really knew the P-40, he'd experienced it before and he gave us a briefing on its flying characteristic. Goyette, a navy man, briefed us on the aircraft itself, the operation of it 1 �and cockpit orientation and so forth, and I remember meeting Bob Little who was a combat pilot out of the old eight suit? group and I remember I had to talk to him. We had a mutual friend, old Johnny Allison who ultimately came over to China in the Air Corps and I had a great respect for Bob Little because he was a fighter pilot. As a matter of fact, I learned a lot from him in actual combat, I mean in actual training in the aircraft. We had a control tower, a little makeshift control tower if you will, right by the runway, and we took turns being the control officer for air traffic control to the extent that our communications worked. I met Doc Richards, Doc Prevo, the dentist, Doc Bruce. Lo and behold I met the two nurses, Red Petach? at that time, Mary Jane Red Foster, and Joe and we – of course, I eventually met the parachute packer?, the weather man, our communications man, my crew chief, Walt Dolan – we rapidly became very close to one another. Of course, he was responsible for maintaining my aircraft and did a terrific job – kept that airplane flying. FB: What was your – you've walked us through a number of different things – what was this feeling that you had as you were meeting this person and that person, what kind of impression did you get about this group that you were joining? CB: I remember when I met Frank Schiel, I had a great respect for Frank and for some reason or another we hit it off very quickly, I guess primarily because I was going to be his assistant in operations. I was impressed by Eric's knowledge of the P-40 and Goyette's knowledge of the aircraft, the engine, props, armament and so forth. I met a lot of the armament boys. I remember meeting Rode the first time, terrific little guy. I remember meeting Pappy Boyington for the first time and I remember him from stories I heard from some of the other guys, he had been there about 48 hours you know. I thought, "who is this guy?" I was particularly proud of myself, I had been in golden gloves and I figured I could take care of myself with anybody but never with intentions in mind or anything but he was a very controversial character, but we had a respect for each other. Hennessy, I 2 �remember meeting old Hennessy who eventually turned out to be the General's pilot in a little beachcraft airplane. Kuykendahl. FB: What I'm looking for is – was there a sense of confidence on meeting these guys and how did you feel like –you were gonna to be going to war, you knew that, eventually and if the people you were gonna work with didn't give you any sense that they could do it, I would imagine you'd be quite worried. What did you actually feel when you got a chance to meet all these guys? CB: When I would meet one of the pilots or one of the airmen, naturally I'd think about his background. Eventually I'd learn to know the background of the people and I had gradually begun to have a respect for the guys. Some I knew were better than the others, just based on their experience and the way they talked about the airplane. Of course, there had been one contingent there before who had already flown the P-40. Here, I had flown B-18's and B-17's when they took me on as a volunteer and now I was going to get into a fighter but I was very confident of handling the airplane because I had graduated in fighter Pursuit aircraft at Kelly Field? and an old BT8 which was a forerunner of the P-47 ??? which turned out to be a fantastic airplane in the air force. That airplane was as much of a groundlooper as a P-40 turned out to be. I didn't like the idea that they told me I was going to have to fly an old BT14 or BT9 before they'd let me get in the P-40. This – I didn't like this idea, I figured I was better than that. But at any rate, firstly the airplane wasn't in commission so they had to put me in straight in a P-40 and after I took off in a P-40, very confident, as a matter of fact, on my first flight I was doing slow rolls, loops and all because I had been trained in it and I learned, fact is, to go into a terrific power dive and because of the propeller, the centrifugal force you get in a skid. I learned that. It was sensitive, but it was a great sensation, being in the airplane, and then came the landing, my first landing, and I admit I was tense. I'd been cautioned, "Don't dare try to put this thing down on three points with your landing gear in a tail wheel, land it wheel first and then stay with it – the rudder, later on if you ??? fight the rudder to keep it on a 3 �runway and I came in fast. Some of the guys later on told me we was holding the aircraft as – here was a bomber guy flying. But I came in fast then set the airplane down. I was tense but after I stopped and taxied back I was completely confident from then on of handling another airplane. FB: What was your first impression – your first meeting with Claire Chennault? CB: I think it was the second or third day – it was the second day we were there, the old man came in dressed in a – one of these desert sun hats, with a bush jacket on and I'd seen pictures of him and the minute he walked in to introduce himself and indoctrinate and orientate and really give a talk to all of us new arrivals, I thought, gee, he looks just like the pictures I saw and it immediately came into mind the term I remembered calling him "leather-face", and I could understand. He had a pretty deeply pocked face, that stern jowl. There was no doubt that his appearance immediately struck me as a real guy, a real leader, and definitely I'd read about him and history in the air force, and definitely a fighter pilot. And I rapidly learned that he was very hard of hearing but he covered it up greatly. And when he spoke he spoke in a slow voice. He never laughed out loud, he kind of chuckled. He reminded me of the way General Mays used to laugh. General Mays couldn't really laugh, just chuckle. He spoke very confidently. I was immediately impressed with his knowledge, and I just became enrapt in his talk about the Zero versus the P-40, it just all made so much sense. He told us the comparative weaknesses of [??] Zero versus the P-40 and this encouraged all of us. In my opinion, I just couldn't wait to meet one of these guys. And I felt that the rest of the guys felt the same way about him. He really impressed me and I think I remember saying, "This guy's a military man." Subsequently I, of course, got to know him much better later on and I would use the word "genius" in certain aspects of tactical air war for the redeployment and movement from base to base and his strategy, tactics and all. He was a genius at tactical air war, there was no doubt about it, and he proved to be. 4 �FB: In the United States you have been given an image of what the Japanese pilot was going to be like, but what did Chennault have to say about the enemy you were going to be going up against? CB: In the briefing about the enemy that we would be meeting, and of course, at that time you know, none of us had any knowledge of December the 7th – December the 8th over there to us when the Japs hit Pearl Harbor, but we felt, and I described them as the enemy, Japanese, we were going to protect the Burma Road and I expected and the rest of the guys too, we expected to meet Japanese in combat over the Burma Road to defend the supplies going up the Burma Road, so we talked of them in terms of enemy. The old man having been over there since as early as '37, '36, something like that, he knew 'em, and in my opinion one of his greatest strengths that lent to the performance of the Flying Tigers was the intelligence that he had of the Japanese aircraft, their pilots and so forth. The pilots of the Japanese army which the first ones we really met in most of our combat, up until the time of Hankow later on, they were disciplined all right, but they were regimented in their thinking. They were briefed for certain things; the flexibility wasn't like the old American boy, and this sort of gave me confidence as being a little bit, if you will, more capable of taking them rather than them taking us, and I think that's the way it really turned out in combat, until I remember up at Hankow later on when they brought the Japanese navy in, the Japanese navy pilots, definitely we could tell the difference in the capability of those pilots. And I remember one incident in combat, later on in Rangoon, Bob Deal and I cornered a little guy that obviously had to be a flight leader or a flight commander or a squadron commander, and I can remember distinctly right now, he had a yellow stripe around the fuselage of his airplane which indicated he was boss or something anyhow. We fought that guy for about five or ten minutes. I never could get a beat on him, here he was fighting two P-40's against him and finally Bob got a beat on him and shot him dead. My respect for 'em at that time wasn't the greatest in the world. 5 �I'd heard stories about, "Well, they've got bad eyes, they can't see." That's not true, they could see well. FB: During the day, what was your routine like? Your routine, what was the routine like around the base? Were you going to training sessions? You'd already met Chennault now? What was your routine? CB: We'd get up about 6.30 or 7.00, have a quick breakfast and then go down a line, and each one of us, at first centrally controlled until we were assigned to squadrons and operate with squadrons, if you will, decentralize. But we actually had a formal course that we were briefed on by the old man and I think it was some 60 hours of ground training and some 60 hours of flight training, then supposedly we would be qualified. We'd study the manuals, flight manuals of the airplane, we'd get briefed, we'd have special briefing's about, "Now if two of you are going out and practice combat, here's what you're gonna do", and they'd assign us to a certain area, and not specifically altitude really, we had wide open space, and if it was a test flight in engineering to take data on the airplanes and so forth, if it was a navigation flight, instrument flight, very little instruments really were used. We'd got to because the war came so quick. And gunnery, we got instant ground gunnery, and that was exciting. When we'd get on – come back, we'd fill out form 5, typically, pilots, fill out your form 5 telling something didn't work, and the crew chief really didn't, and a lot of the time we'd stick with the crew chief to remedy whatever comes in the airplane. The crew chief's, they turned out to be fantastic. We did things on those airplanes that we'd have been court-marshalled, the crew chiefs did, the maintenance people, we'd have been court-marshalled back in the United States. You just did not do this. They'd tear a carburetor completely to pieces and put it back together. And then, of course, we had have athletics in the afternoon. The old man wanted to keep us in shape. Some of us arrived there with the idea of, "I'm gung-ho", and "Lead me to 'em", "I wanna take 'em over". The old man saw this and we didn't have much transportation and I think one of the reasons we didn't have much transportation – he 6 �wanted us to walk. We all bought bicycles – we got into bicycling instead of walking, and then we had softball games. The old man played softball with us and boy, those softball games got wild – sometimes as wild as the bar got. No tennis, of course, no golf, a lot of court playing, except when old Red Probst? would get bad by losing a game, and he'd tear up a deck of cards and that made everybody furious because nobody else had a deck of cards. FB: We're going to get into also – there's a reference to – sometimes. 7 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Bond_Charles_1991-02-23_v03 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bond, Charles R., Jr. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-23 Title A name given to the resource Charlie Bond interview (video and transcript, 3 of 12), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Charlie Bond by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Charles R. "Charlie" Bond was Vice Squadron Leader of the First Pursuit Squadron "Adam and Eves" of the American Volunteer Group (AVG). Recruited by Skip Adair in 1941, he was inspired by photos of shark-mouthed Tomahawks of No. 112 Sqadron, RAF. He was the first to paint his P-40 in similar markings, setting the precedent for what became the trademark of the Flying Tigers. He shot down six Japanese fighters and one bomber. After the AVG disbanded, he rejoined the US Army Air Forces School of Applied Tactics to train new fighter pilots. In this tape, Bond describes his initial impressions in the early days of the AVG and the camaraderie that formed among them, in addition to his first meeting with Claire Chennault. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng