121 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f47b4fb27fc204d1cfd802ea4435a138.mp4 7d86848d2bbe932dd222c126ce76128b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e3edb62fcf04b84826c12325a40654e5.pdf fc8361f82a887260a8a6e4630b89e4e2 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Douglas Broek (1:00:35) Background Information. (1:34)         Born in Muskegon, Michigan, November 2, 1947(1:40) He is of Dutch decent. (2:00) He was raised in Muskegon and attended at Muskegon schools until his senior year of high school (approx. 1965) when he transferred to Mona Shores High School. (2:15) He graduated from Mona Shores in 1966. (2:50) He has 2 brothers and 1 sister who all reside in Muskegon. (2:56) His mother was a stay at home mom and his father was a self employed contractor. (3:14) He was getting so close to being drafted that he decided to enlist. (3:49) He enlisted in the U.S. Air Force. He did this because it was the most intriguing of the branches. (4:00) Basic Training (4:40)             He was in Detroit to fly to San Antonio, Texas, he was trapped on the tarmac due to fog. He remembered being given the uniforms and the hair cut. (4:52) He received his basic training at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas. (5:30) His drill instructor was very fair and nice (for a drill instructor.) (5:47) His fellow recruits were very divers evolving different nationalities and social classes. (6:14) He failed to build relationships with other men stationed there due to the regimentation of basic training (6:49) Basic training lasted 6 weeks. (7:20) Basic training was his first time away from home and was difficult. (7:38) When picking up supplies that were issued to him he was told to say thank you ma’am, however he did not add ma’am at the end and received discipline for it. (8:02) Basic training entailed some classes and a lot of marching. It was also very regimented. (8:20) The dorm guard (a rotating duty) would do laundry at night because there was not time during the day. (9:10) He received rifle training on what he believed was an M16 (9:54) The men had to be able to run a mile in 4 [?]minutes to graduate. (10:19) �       All the men in his class graduated. (10:45) No one he knew showed up for his graduation. (10:57) After basic training he was given 2 weeks leave (11:05) In May of 1968 he reported to Loring Air Force Base In Maine. (11:39) Here he was associated with the security police squadron and handled many of the paper work and records in an office job. (12:16) He stayed here approx. 2 years (approx. 1967=1969) (12:55) They stayed in small army Barracks without a mess hall. Here he did manage to make friends due to his association with getting supplies and postal. (13:19) Arrival in Vietnam and service as an R&R Clerk. (13:55)              He was sent to Vietnam in June of 1969. (14:54) He was assigned to Bin Thuy Air Base (15:15) Assigned to the 637th Combat Support Group.(15:25) Served as an R&R clerk. (15:40) While there he tried to send most married men to Hawaii. Most single men went to Australia, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Thailand. (16:15) Leaves for R&R lasted approx. 1 week. Transportation was by commercial aircraft courtesy of the U.S. military. (17:00) During a 1 year tour of duty men where most often allowed only 1 R&R leave. (17:30) Men with more time in country where often given first priority. (17:45) Though man socialized with him to attempt to get more R&R his name was not very widely known. (18:40) During his time in country he received an R&R of his own in Sydney Australia. (19:05) He saw much of the city; however he was required to rent clothing because he was discouraged from wearing his uniform. (20:20) His hotel was on top of the King’s Cross (21:04) He took a tour of the city and he visited the beach as well as the zoo. (21:28) Service at Bin Thuy Air Base. (22:53)     Because he worked in a Vietnamese airport there where many Vietnamese working there (22:57) The U.S. had no fighter air craft stationed there. The base was primarily used for supplies shipment. (23:04) In addition for R&R he was in charge of a hobby shop as well as a library that where at the base that were for the use of base personnel only. (24:20) Cleaning and sanitation jobs were often held by Vietnamese. (25:10) �                        One Vietnamese woman worked behind the desk at the hobby shop but was eventually caught for stealing. (25:40) There were approx. 100 men stationed at the Air Base. (26:15) He was never wounded in Vietnam. (26:37) He only carried a weapon once during the Tet Offensive [not the famous one, which was in 1968]. (26:40) The base was stationed on the Mekong River and though his side did not see any action there was visible evidence of fighting across the river. (27:10) For living quarters there were some barracks but many men lived in a hotel that was near the base. (27:40) There were not any Army personnel at this base (28:35) He covered R&R activities for personnel from all services. (28:44) R&R applications were received from mail or by hand delivery. (29:27) Was never a P.O.W.(30:06) He served on the perimeter for 2 weeks during Tet Offensive [Tet 1970]. (30:24) He did not know of any casualties in his unit. (30:53) He worked a 12 hour day and worked in 2 modular buildings. (Shipped in and assembled on site.) They did have air conditioning. (31:30) For a period, he moved into the hobby shop because of its air conditioning. (32:40) On the base they had a van and a pickup truck for movement. They had no jeeps or military vehicles (32:58) For work he had an electric typewriter and a working phone. (33:20) When calling home he was required to go to a MARS station. (33:40) He called home 3 times, one of which was due to the death of his grandfather and grandmother. (34:46) He received no special awards or honors for his duty. (35:36) Approx. every month there was a USO show. (35:47) Most shows had 5-7 people in the shows. (36:16) The shows varied in content from music, to sports, to celebrity appearances. (36:38) He saw 9 shows at Binh Thuy Air Base. (30:03) He served in country for approx. 1 year. (1969-1970) (39:13) End of in country service. (39:23)       When his term was over he went to San Francisco and then to Muskegon, Michigan. These flights were paid for with his own funds. (39:23) He arrived home in Travis Air Force Base, San Francisco. (40:10) Once in the U.S. he was sent to Fort Eglin Air Force Base in Florida (40:23) He was assigned to the Red Horse Detachment. (stationed off base.) They were responsible for heavy equipment and construction equipment. (40:43) Here he served as a clerk. (41:05) He served here for 6 months until he was given an out to finish his schooling. (Late 1970) (41:16) �  He attended Muskegon Community College (41:27) He received his early out so that he could start school. This privilege required an application be submitted. (41:41 Life in Vietnam (42:47)         In Vietnam he received letters and care packages from his mother often. (42:34) There was a post office on Binh Thuy Air Base (43:06) He recalls the food was not bad and the base did have a chow hall. (43:27) There was a shared bathroom and showers. The showers worked by having water pumped onto the roof and then having gravity push it out. (44:20) He does not recall any problem receiving supplies. Many supplies came in by C130 at night. (45:14) He had little to no pressure and stress on his job. (45:50) He worked 7AM to 7PM daily for 6 days a week. He received Sundays off. (46:33) One day he at lunch at the home of one of the Vietnamese men who worked on the base. Afterwards he had dysentery. (47:25) Post Military Life. (48:11)               He worked for Meijer Inc. as a bag boy and stocking shelves. He later applied for management training and with his schooling he was placed on retail accounting. (48:20) He had his schooling at Muskegon paid for. (49:18) He received an Associate’s degree in accounting. (49:24) He made friends in the service but he never stayed in touch with them. His unit does not hold reunions. (49:37) In 2001 he was married. (50:10) He joined the VFW in 2001. (51:06) He was latter voted Junior vice Commander of the district. (51:30) 2 years latter in 2003 he was elected Commander of the district. (51:35) He developed a lot of Friendships through his time in the VFW. (51:45) The VFW is post 702. (51:51) He knows that his time in the Air Force greatly influenced his appreciation of team work. (52:41) He retired from Meijer about 3 years ago. (approx. 2008)(53:45) He has been a volunteer at the Grand Rapids Home for Veterans for 4-5 years. (53:56) He has volunteered in the clothing room as well as the bait shop. (55:19) Document examination (56:11) �       When an individual of active military and ended there service they received this document. (56:15) It gives time overseas, medals earned, and other information. (56:48) This picture is in the lowering room at Air Force Base Maine. (57:11) This is a base news paper. This paper referred to his position and his job for R&R leave. (57:50) A Program from one of the USO shows, these were handed out explaining who was there. This one was for Base Ball players. (58:40) This is a USO pamphlet for Football players. (58:15) This was his dog tag. He was required to wear it even though he worked an office job and saw little to no action. (59:58) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broek, Douglas (Interview outline and video), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Broek, Douglas Description An account of the resource Douglas Broek grew up in Muskegon, Michigan, and enlisted in the Air Force in 1967 to stay ahead of the draft. After completing basic training in San Antonio, he spent about two years working as a clerk for a security unit at Loring Air Force Base in Maine. In June, 1969, he was sent to Vietnam. He served his tour at Binh Thuy in the Mekong Delta, and worked as the R&R clerk for all of the military units based in the area. Things were pretty quiet in his area at the time, and he picked up other odd jobs on the base just to stay busy. After returning to the US in 1970, he completed his enlistment as a clerk with a heavy equipment unit based at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Erichsen, Wallace (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Air Force Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-12-05 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BroekD1338V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d0437faca79d047ed180ef8cdceb0d00.pdf 0fbe41bc852266db7c027f39a549d413 PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Incunabula Description An account of the resource The term incunabula refers to books printed between 1450 and 1500, approximately the first fifty years following the invention, by Johann Gutenberg of Mainz, of printing from moveable type. Our collection includes over 200 volumes and numerous unbound leaves from books printed during this period. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1450/1500 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Incunabula Collection (DC-03) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United </a> Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource text Language A language of the resource eng it la nl de Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summa praedicantium [folium 14] Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03_014Bromyard1484 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bromyard, Johannes de Description An account of the resource One leaf of Summa praedicantium by Johannes de Bromyard. Illustrated with red rubricated initials. Printed in Basel by Johann Amerbach circa 1484. [GW M13114; ISTC ij00260000] Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Basel: Johann Amerbach Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Sermons Bromyard, Johannes de Language A language of the resource la Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1484 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/893b083176357ff030ecb8d9dd42c353.mp4 ab01bd25ff8e43f68375d7ee84047d35 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/01f6ac222d07e14d3bcb588152c718f2.pdf 5862a605e9a2cf467649b7ae1b4b2613 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Matthew Brong (40:55) (00:20) Background Information • • • • • • Matthew was born on September 22, 1983 in Petoskey, MI He enlisted in the Army and was in Iraq from August 2006-May 2007 Matthew graduated from high school in 2002 and went through ROTC at Michigan State University His grades were not very good, so he joined his brother in the Army in May 2004 Matthew had always wanted to join the Army and it has been a family tradition His brother was a captain, his father had been in the Air Force during Vietnam, and his grandfather was in the First Armored Division in World War II (3:10) Infantry Training • Matthew began training at Fort Benning, Georgia and was there for three months • He spent a lot of time doing push-ups, sit-ups, and running • All those in training had to have a diploma or GED and no criminal record • Matthew then went to airborne school for four weeks and then received his wings • They learned how to properly exit military air craft • He then went through the Ranger Indoctrination Program for the 75th Ranger Regiment • He broke his foot shortly after and was medically dropped from the program • Matthew was in hold over and healing for 3 months before he received another assignment (7:00) Fort Bragg February 2005 • Matthew joined the 82nd Airborne Division, which was a rival of the Ranger Regiment • Speaking of the Ranger Regiment, he noted that “they are the most heavily armed fraternity.” • They were deployed in September 2005 for hurricane relief in New Orleans • It was strange working to help victims of Hurricane Katrina because no one knew the correct procedure for stateside peace time operations (11:20) Deployed to Iraq August 2006 • Matthew was told he would be in Iraq for only 180 days, then 12 months, and it ended up being a tour of 15 months for most people in the service • It was hard for him leaving friends and family, especially his four month old son • They could communicate in Iraq through phones, internet, and mail �• • • Whenever someone was killed or injured, all modes of communication were “blacked out” until that person’s family had been contacted and notified All received 16 days of rest and recreation for their 15 month tour Matthew visited his family in March 2007 for his son’s first birthday (17:40) Injured May 26, 2007 • It had been near his three year anniversary in the Army • He had been traveling in the last of four trucks in caravan • The last truck was blown up and 3 of the 5 inside died • Matthew had multiple fractured vertebrae and had titanium rods surgically implanted into his back • He also suffered moderate to severe brain injury that resulted in memory loss • Some doctors called his problem post-traumatic amnesia and others called it retrograde amnesia • He lost about fourteen months of his memory at first, but most of it came back • After the explosion, he was flown to and aid center in a chopper • He had back surgery in a few hours and then was flown to Germany • The other survivor of the explosion had very similar injuries (23:30) Washington, DC • From Germany, Matthew was flown to Andrews Air Force Base in DC • He then was transferred to the Walter Reed Medical Center • He was there from June 1-June 27 and then sent to a rehab center in Virginia • Matthew has no memory of being in Walter Reed and had to re-learn how to walk • Matthew was in Richmond Virginia recovering for 1.5 months and then was discharged (29:25) After Being Discharged • Matthew moved to Fayetteville, NC with his wife and son • He continued to take classes to work on his speech and memory • He continued to have regular medical visits and would never be as physically strong • Matthew still suffers from short term memory loss • He can no longer be in the infantry because he can only carry half the weight • He is now back in the Army, but not doing as much physical work (32:25) Looking Back • Matthew would not do anything different even with his injury • Matthew had many positive experiences in the Army, especially while in New Orleans • He enjoyed seeing Cheney and Bush in New Orleans and received many thanks from the civilians � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Brong, Matthew (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brong, Matthew Description An account of the resource Matthew Brong was in1983, received some ROTC training at Michigan State University for a while, but dropped out because he was not getting good grades. He joined the Army in 2005 and was sent to Iraq in August of 2006 with the 82 Airborne Division. May 26, 2007 Matthew was injured when the truck he was traveling in ran over a road bomb. He experienced back injuries and memory loss. He was discharged and it took him quite a while to recover from his injuries. Matthew later re-enlisted in the Army, but can no longer endure intense physical activity. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Brong, Genna (Interviewer) Riley Street Middle School (Hudsonville, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army Iraq War, 2003-2011--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-06-02 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BrongM Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/80b2af4d1b8354f0416c71459ff9c0f0.mp4 aafae20d1120e91616f60ca34a4bbcb8 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f8f697a5a067be1365593b841a061598.pdf afc6f4f3d112bc0a63f433bbe05e11be PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Audrey Bronkema (24:45) Background Information (00:14)    Her father owned an insulation company. After she graduated high school she spent a year working for her father. (00:15) She lived in Greenville, Michigan. (00:40) She enlisted in the Army. This was inspired in part due to her love of the program M.A.S.H. (00:53) Basic Training (1:40)   She flew from Lansing Michigan to South Carolina. She was then bused to Fort Jackson, South Carolina. (1:44) One of the first things that she was taught in basic was how to march properly. (2:20) Overview of Service (2:20)             She served in Germany during the time of the Persian Gulf War (1990-1991). (2:55) She worked as a telecommunication center operator. (3:12) After basic training, Audrey moved on to her advanced MOS training at Fort Gordon in Georgia (4:03) She completed her service while serving at Fort Victors in Atlanta Georgia. (4:21) She liked serving in Germany because there was more camaraderie amongst the serving men. (4:50) She found that her time in Army was very exciting. (6:06) Audrey never recalled being fearful. She did understand, however, that she could be called into battle. (6:35) She almost always had access to a mess hall as well as off post facilities. (7:07) While in the field for training purposes, most people slept during their free time. Often times there were also pick up sports games while she served at the bases. (7:48) Audrey used letters to communicate with home. Once a week she would make a phone call as well. (9:00) Because she had shift work, she often spent holidays working. (9:20) Her service did improve her ability to work with others and increased her confidence. (9:55) Exiting Service (10:27)     The day she left the Army was very bitter sweet. She wanted a change but she enjoyed the service very much. (10:31) When the Persian Gulf War ended in February of 1991, Audrey was still in Germany. (11:08) Immediately after service she took several days relaxing. She then started looking for work (11:32) She had not taken any college courses when she got out of the military. (12:26) � She does not have much contact with most the people she served with. She is still close with a hand full of her closest friends. (12:55) Life after Service (13:40)    She worked in landscaping for 5 years in Georgia after getting out of the service. She later went to school for electronics. (13:51) Audrey then returned to Michigan and worked for a hospital. (14:11) Her service did help with the customer service part of her career. (14:30) Thoughts on Service (15:10)         It was an honor to her to be able to serve. (15:30) She thinks that it is good that the U.S. is able to provide aid to individuals who are being treated unfairly. (16:56) The only regret Audrey has about her service was that she didn’t serve longer. (18:20) She served in the Army for 4 years. (18:53) While in Germany, Audrey and her fellow soldiers were supposed to aid the war effort in the Middle East. She and her unit were put on alert to go into battle but ultimately did not. (19:50) Audrey received 2 Army achievement medals and 1 accommodation medal. (21:39) If she was younger she would rejoin the Army. She simply had so many good memories and so much pride in the uniform. (23:00) She thinks that it would be a good experience for everyone to serve simply to experience more of what the world has to offer. (24:27) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bronkema, Audrey (Interview outline and video), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bronkema, Audrey Description An account of the resource Audrey Bronkema served in the U.S. army from approximately 1989-1993. Audrey had her basic training at Fort Jackson South Carolina and was then sent to MOS training at Fort Gordon in Georgia. Audrey spent several years of her service as a telecommunication center operator in Germany. She was stationed in Germany at the time of the 1991 Gulf War, and her unit was put on alert for deployment, but the alert was cancelled once the war ended. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Przybysz, Mason (Interviewer) Vanmiddelkoop, Dana (Interviewer) McCarty, Joey (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-27 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BronkemaA1355V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ec6c3128b89428b5b703100a8837a797.pdf 98b4b4fd7d2525fbc9f903f0fcb3a453 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Billy “Che” Brooks Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/28/2012 Biography and Description Billy “Che” Brooks is Deputy Minister of Education of the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense (BPP) and Director of YouthLAB@1521 through the Better Boys Foundation. In 1969, Mr. Brooks was very close to Chairman Fred Hampton who was the main spokesman of the Black Panther Party in Illinois. As one of the primary leaders of the BPP, Mr. Brooks was under constant, daily harassment by the Chicago Red Squad and Gang Intelligence Unit. He also worked closely with the Young Lords through the Rainbow Coalition.Mr. Brooks recalls one time when Mr. Hampton asked Mr. José ”Cha-Cha” Jiménez to sneak Mr. Brooks out of a rally at Grant Park, where the police wanted to arrest him on a simple, disorderly conduct warrant. In the middle of the Michigan Avenue Bridge, by Oak Street, the police blocked the automobile in which they were driving, pointed their funs in the faces of those in the car, and arrested Mr. Brooks. The Young Lords drove to the police station and posted his bond. They then drove Mr. Brooks back to the BPP headquarters and told Chairman Hampton, “This one is on us.” Mr. Brooks began working with the Better Boys Foundation in 1978 as the Coordinator of Community Involvement. He continued this work until 1994 and then returned to the agency in 2008. In the interim, Mr. Books engaged in a whole variety of community and public interest work including positions with the Westside Association for Community Action, Habilitative Systems, Inc. and the Harvard School of Public Health. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: (inaudible). BILLY BROOKS: My name is Billy Lamar Brooks, Sr., a.k.a Che. I was born in Forest, Mississippi on July 18th, 1948. My family migrated to the State of Illinois, to the best of my recollection when I was three years old. I pretty much have lived on the West side of Chicago my entire adult life. I [00:01:00] spent most of my time in the North Lawndale community in an area called K-Town which is called K-Town because most of the streets start with a K, you know, Komensky, Karlov, Kedvale, Keeler, Kolin, Kildare, Kostner, then we go Tripp right in the middle there. And I went to Bryant School, which is located on 13th and Kedvale. From there, I went to Mason School, which is on 18th and Keeler. I graduated from Mason School in June of 1963, attended John Marshall High School where I ran track [00:02:00] for four years and participated in African American History Club, but it was called Negro History Club, taught by a guy by the name of George Crockett. I graduated from Marshall High School in June of 1967. This is where it get interesting, I went to Wilson Junior College, which at that time was located on 70th and Stewart, ran track there also, cross country. And got engaged in [00:03:00] a real African American club, you know, which opened my eyes up to the contradictions that existed in terms of poor people in this here country. I became politically conscious, politically aware of this government just in terms of how it treated its poor citizens. It was never my intention to be quote unquote, a “subversive, radical” or a member of the Black Panther Party. [00:04:00] I wanted to be a lawyer, I wanted to be a doctor and a 1 �lot of that was just based on the fact that I wanted to be a part of the American dream, which I was told was available to me. One thing led to another, I met some guys from the South Side of Chicago that I bonded to and we would meet and talk and meet and talk and I got tired of meeting and talking. I was familiar with what was going on in Oakland in October of 1966, you know, but it was not something that [00:05:00] (pause) I really wanted to be a part of, but I met this dude named Bobby Lee Rush, who’s a sitting congressman now in D.C., he represents some legislative district congressionally on the South Side. And we began to collaborate and organize around the issues of police brutality, which was something that I had witnessed as a very young person pretty much all my life. And one thing led to another just in terms of my consciousness and [00:06:00] my willingness to actually want to become part of a broader more focused struggle. Didn’t really know what I was getting into, but I had a burning desire to resist the temptation of not being a part of probably one of the most progressive and revolutionary movements in the history of this country when it comes down to dealing with the contradictions with capitalism and the overt oppression of [00:07:00] poor minority communities, you know. So, I actually went into the concept of being a member of the Black Panther Party not as a Black nationalist, not from within an Afrocentric perspective, but with the understanding that if we were actually going to have an impact on heightened contractions and changing some rudimentary social policies in this here country then we have to work with some coalition politics which was really part of the ideology and philosophy of the Black Panther Party, starting with the original 2 �Rainbow Coalition [00:08:00] with the Peace and Freedom Party out in San Francisco, Oakland, Bay Area when Eldridge Cleaver ran for president, you know, So, it became part and parcel of our philosophy and our ideology here in the State of Illinois where we were actually upon the leadership of our deputy chairman Fred Hampton who really understood more so than any of us at that time the importance of coalition politics. He took the lead in establishing [00:09:00] relationships throughout the city of Chicago. Even at one time and point tried to hook up with the Black P. Stone Nation, which is what they were called at that time and that didn’t work out too well. Worked a little with David... JJ: Why didn’t it work out too well? BB: Actually, at that time, there were a lot of dollars floating around out here from the so called Model Cities Program and a lot of that money were going to gangs, you know, like the Vice Lords, like the Black P. Stone Nation and they felt that we were a threat to them. You know, our focus was [00:10:00] on organizing poor and oppressed people in regards of where they were or what they were doing. And basically, it didn’t work out because they saw us as a threat to them. A lot of it had to do with... JJ: Threat in terms of taking your funds from the Model Cities? BB: Well, more or less. I would say to the extent of us impacting their ability to get those funds, you know, because we were talking about changing the economic infrastructure of our community, we were talking about building a political and economic base that actually we would control as opposed to [00:11:00] working with governmental handouts that placed all kind of constrictions and, (pause) you 3 �know, restrictions and unnecessary demands, was really basically what governed what we did. At that time the big thing was opening up businesses in the community and we weren’t into that at all. We were into heightening contradictions, you know, as we did with our breakfast program, as we did... JJ: Yeah, heightening contradictions meaning what? BB: It actually means that you’re making people aware. Okay, first of all, we look at oppression, we see oppression as violence, okay. [00:12:00] And the major contradiction that we looked at was children were going to school hungry, you know, and it’s kind of difficult to learn when you’re hungry. So, we saw that as a major contradiction. So, our intent was to heighten the people’s awareness of that. JJ: Major contradiction because they were hungry in a prosperous country? BB: Exactly, exactly. In a country that was one of the wealthiest countries in the world. All of our survival programs were geared toward heightening contradictions, you know, from the medical center to the free prison program. But the cream of the crop was... JJ: The Free Prison Program, how was that heightening contradictions? BB: Well, we [00:13:00] a lot of people that were incarcerated in Southern Illinois, people were not able to visit their relatives. And if you are incarcerated and you don’t have anyone coming to visit you, pretty much anything can go down, okay, so we created the Free Prison Bussing Program that took actual community residents, free of charge to visit their loved ones. Which really pissed off the penal institutions, you know, because then they started to have to change the 4 �way they treated our incarcerated family members. [00:14:00] Then people basically started going on their own to visit their relatives. All our programs were based on survival. Later on, Huey P. Newton conceptualized a different approach to the infrastructure of the Black Panther Party and started talking about revolutionary and communalism which connects all poor and oppressed communities around the world that are struggling with the same social, economic and political concerns. But they were all part and parcel of our original 10-point platform [00:15:00] and program. The most salient one was point number 10 where we talked about, we want land, bread, housing, education, clothing, justice and peace. And as our major political objective, a United Nation supervised plebiscite which is a vote to determine the destiny of our poor and oppressed people and communities, you know, we wanted a vote. And we still would like to see that happen now in 2012 because the conditions haven’t changed, they haven’t changed here, they haven’t changed in the so-called Commonwealth of Puerto Rico. We’re still being exploited to the max in terms of [00:16:00] economic system, you know. JJ: Okay, so this was about the people determining their own destiny and bringing it to a vote you’re saying, (inaudible)? BB: Yeah, you know, bringing a vote, it would be a plebiscite. The whole concept behind United Nations is that they’re a world body and that each member of the United Nation represent nations around the world. And you well know, most of the oppressed third world nations and countries are being exploited for economic [00:17:00] reasons. 5 �JJ: So, you came when you were around three years old to the West Side of Chicago. BB: Yes. JJ: Okay. And you lived in K-Town (inaudible). BB: Mm-hmm. JJ: And then later on of course, you joined different groups, but you joined the Black Panther Party. BB: I only joined one group. JJ: Prior to that? BB: You know, I joined the Black Panther Party in October, 1968. Prior to that, I was not affiliated with... JJ: Any other group. BB: No. JJ: Okay. So, how did you get from Mississippi to Chicago thinking about the Black Panther Party? In between there with growing -- BB: Well, I came from... JJ: -- up on the West Side, what was that like (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? BB: Well, [00:18:00] from Mississippi, I was three years old, I have very little memory of that. Some of my more salient thoughts are black and white police cars. We used to stay on 18th and Hastings and I had a Uncle Joe, a big truck driver, he used to drink a lot, he was very strong and he’d get into it with the police a lot. JJ: In like disorderly or something like that? BB: Yeah, no, I used to actually watch him beat the shit outta the police. 6 �JJ: Oh, he (inaudible). BB: Yeah. You know what I’m sayin’? I mean, eventually they would get the best of him, you know, but those are some of my early memories and I used to wonder why the police were so brutal. [00:19:00] JJ: Were there a lot of relatives here, did you have a lot of relatives? BB: Oh yeah, pretty much... JJ: I mean, did they come at the same time? BB: We all left -- as far as Mississippi, my uncle -- I had an uncle who lived in Gary, Indiana, he’s the oldest of my mother’s siblings. He came first, okay, and he worked at the steel mill. Then I had my Uncle Joe, then I had relatives in Joliet, Illinois. But I would say by the year of -- I was born in 48, so by the time I was six, seven years old, we had a real close-knit clan [00:20:00] here in Chicago area, which at that time included... JJ: On the West Side? BB: Yeah, but it also included -- JJ: Joliet and -- BB: -- Joliet, it included Gary, Indiana ’cause just about every weekend, we’d pile up in the old Buick and we’d be going to Joliet or we’d be going to Gary. Yeah, a lot of family here. JJ: So, you grew up with a family, cousins and all that. And what were they into, what were your cousins [and them into?], what the – I’m getting more personal. BB: I was the black sheep, okay? My mother pretty much was the only one who supported my [00:21:00] activities in the Black Panther Party. 7 �JJ: You’re talking about later, when you were an outcast for being a Panther. BB: No, I’m just talking about when I joined the party. JJ: But I’m talking about growing up. BB: What do you mean? JJ: You said you were the black sheep growing up. BB: No, no, not growing up. My stepfather was a Baptist minister, and I grew up in a church. I was a junior deacon, I taught Sunday school up until my senior year of high school, which was 1967. No, I fit quite well within the family structure up until like ’67, which was my first year of college, the first day of college, which was like September... JJ: What college was this? BB: Wilson Junior College. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) BB: I remember participating in a 10 a.m. demonstration up here on Pulaski and [00:22:00] and Roosevelt. At that time, Richard Elrod was the city’s corporation counsel, he was one of Daley’s number one (audio cuts out) he became sheriff, Richard Elrod. And that’s where I met [Dax Crawford?], and I met Doug Andrews, you know, from the West Side Organization, WSO. And that was my very first arrest. JJ: Oh, you got arrested in that [thing?]? BB: Yeah, well, you know, at that time, they had what they called over here, Contract Buyers League, you had a lot of slum landlords and this was on the heels of what 8 �Dr. King was doing who lived a couple of blocks back from where we are now, [00:23:00] three blocks over, so he was part of that. JJ: Dr. King? BB: Yeah. JJ: Lived here, you mean in Chicago? BB: Yeah, yeah. JJ: Oh, I didn’t know. BB: Yeah, they’ve got a little apartment complex right over there on 16th and Hamlin in his honor, Dr. King Apartments, yeah. JJ: Okay. BB: Yeah, you know, this is where he -- him and Bob Lucas, they organized and... JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Bob Lucas. BB: Yeah, Dr. King stayed right over there on 15th and Hamlin, you know, that’s just like three blocks from where we are now. So, he had a lot of influence on activism in this particular neighborhood. And even though I got arrested and I was part of it, I still didn’t proactively engage myself as an organizer, but it was something that spoke out in my mind and I think that was the first time -- ’cause they didn’t [00:24:00] handcuff us, they just loaded us in the paddy wagon. And I remember getting in the paddy wagon and holding up my fist and saying, “Black power.” I didn’t know what the fuck Black power meant at that time, but there was just some rage. Because there were a lot of older seniors who were -- it was a 10 a.m. demonstration, they’re just sitting there protesting, they weren’t bothering nobody. I didn’t even have to go in, I coulda just got my ass on a bus, 9 �took the train and went on to school. But I said, “No,” because they had ’em surrounded, and they had their little helmets and shit on and had their little billy clubs. And I said, “They ain’t gonna beat these old people up,” you know what I’m saying, “I ain’t gonna let that happen.” So, they let all the old people (laughs) go and took our ass to jail. [00:25:00] JJ: Is it just upbringing or something, you were looking for the old people or (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? BB: Well, man, you know, you grow up -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: -- you grow up with respect for your elders and you wanna protect them and that was a lot of what that was from my point. I had a lot of elders in the church, the mothers, you know, they had the Mothers’ Board, and then they had all the old cats on the Deacon Board. And it was just something Cha-Cha that you learned to do. JJ: Because these were people from the church that were (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Well, not necessarily from the church, but they were people from the community who reminded me of people. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) BB: They were people fighting for their rights [00:26:00] against the slum landlords, they weren’t fixing anything, they was charging people absorbent amount of dollars to live in these fuckin’ rat holes, and people just got tired and they started protesting. 10 �JJ: And this was on the West Side only or... BB: Well, I think it was citywide. JJ: It was citywide? BB: They was doin’ the same thing in Inglewood, they was doin’ the same thing in the Kenwood Oakland community, that’s where the Woodlawn Organization -- now, this was around the time when the University of Chicago was expanding. JJ: But they were displacing people when they were expanding. BB: Yes. JJ: So, [00:27:00) it was a (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Well, it was called urban renewal. JJ: Okay. At that time, yeah. BB: And it was citywide. The same thing that happened here, happened up north. JJ: Exactly. In Uptown, Lincoln Park? BB: Yeah. JJ: In Uptown more, they were dealing with slum landlords more, where Lincoln Park was more displacement. BB: Urban removal. JJ: Urban removal, yeah. BB: Yeah, you know what I’m sayin’? Because the land was prime, you know, and the people with the dollars, the people with the money wanted to come back. You know, at one point, they all fled outta the city. [00:28:00] JJ: When was that, I mean, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? 11 �BB: Well, you know, late ’50s, pretty much all of the ’60s. When they started building the University of Illinois, Circle Campus down there on Roosevelt and Halsted. Now, you know we used to go down there and buy (inaudible) and, you know. JJ: On Maxwell Street there. BB: Yeah. You know, you’re being politically correct, but then we called it Jewtown in the heyday, didn’t have no problem saying, you know, Jewtown (inaudible) and they weren’t Maxwell Street Polish, they were Jewtown Polish and they had this concept of bartering [00:29:00] that they call it, they called it jewing. They’ll have a product that they paid five dollars for, they wanna sell it to you for ten. So, you sit there and talk back and forth to ’em, then you get it down to five dollars, they’re not losing no money. You know what I’m sayin’? They’re not losing nothing, they just -- if you had a strong game, you know, you can get ’em down to 4.50, but the majority of people, they’ll pay the top price. Yeah. JJ: You had them down to 4.50. BB: Actually, I’d go down there and steal that shit. (laughter) Go down and steal that shit, man. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). Okay, so we had Maxwell Street or Jewtown as it was called by everybody at that time, that you said I was trying to be politically correct. But [00:30:00] there were a lot of Jewish vendors, I mean, so they didn’t (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Well, it was all Jewish, you know. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: It was all Jewish. Now you had your -- 12 �JJ: They didn’t mind it at that time. BB: Well, no, you know, you had your street, you know, vendors, you had your blues singers. JJ: (inaudible) and everything on the street. BB: Yeah. JJ: I remember (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Yeah, we had Smoky Joe right there, that’s where everybody used to go get their (inaudible), you know, big ole hats and Stacy Adams shoes, you know, understand, that’s what we wearing back in high school. JJ: So, that kind of -- in that area, people were displaced from that area later, or is that what you’re -- BB: Pretty much. JJ: -- what we’re saying? BB: Yeah, pretty much. I mean, you see the spread that they have down there now from Halsted coming back west, going all the way down [00:31:00] to Harrison, you know what I’m saying? (inaudible) even went all the way back to 18th Street. JJ: Okay, so these things related to housing, to police brutality and then you said you joined the Panthers in October of ’68. BB: Mm-hmm. JJ: So, I mean, what happened, what was your position in the Panthers at that time? BB: I was a Deputy Minister of Education, structure wise, Bobby Rush was the Deputy Minister of Defense, which patterned after central committee, Huey P. Newton being the Minister of Defense, that meant Rush was the leader of the 13 �party [00:32:00] here. And then Fred Hampton was the Deputy Chairman which pretty much meant that he was the spokesman and that he understood the ideology and the philosophy, and he was able to speak on it, with some shit Rush could never do. And then up under me, there was Rufus Chaka Walls, he was the Deputy Minister of Information. Later we had Ronald Doc Satchel as the Deputy Minister of Health. Ann Campbell. (laughs) JJ: And then Ann Campbell, what was her position? BB: She was the like the Communications Secretary. JJ: Communications Secretary. BB: Yeah. We had a deputy minister of labor [00:33:00] initially, which his name was Ron Carter. No, no, not [Ron Carter?], [Don Patterson?]. JJ: Don Patterson. BB: Yeah, Ron Patterson. JJ: Yvonne King [with them, was it?]? BB: Yvonne King actually was Bill’s secretary. JJ: Bill’s secretary. BB: Along with Jewel Cook. JJ: Jewel Cook (inaudible). BB: Yeah. JJ: Bob Lee. BB: Bob Lee was Field Secretary. And what the field secretaries did was go out and organize certain parts of the city. As you know, Bob Lee had North Side and that’s how he got going, you know, from Northeastern to basically Uptown. He 14 �was real instrumental in organizing the Young Patriots and he probably was the only one that good do it ’cause, I mean, (inaudible). [00:34:00] (laughs) You know how we rolled, right, you was there. But everybody had a specific role and responsibility within the infrastructure of our Black Panther Party. Now, I have to emphasize, our Black Panther Party. JJ: So, I see that there was some people that were not -- in terms of the Rainbow Coalition in the beginning, people were not accepting it? BB: Well, no, I... JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) understood. BB: I won’t say there was no acceptance, it was just like the whole concept was coalition politics. JJ: But there wasn’t hesitation. BB: No, no, I mean, this was something that was mandated, this was part of our charge. We just had to find the right person to do it. You know what I’m sayin’? You couldn’t send me up there. JJ: (laughs) BB: You know, [00:35:00] you know. But we supported the work of Bob Lee because the whole intent... JJ: Chicago was a segregated city, I mean for a while (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Oh, still is, still is. JJ: So, the West Side and the North Side were segregated (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). 15 �BB: Right, right, South Side, West Side, North Side. JJ: So, you were growing up on the West Side (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Mm-hmm. See, my job over here, we opened up... JJ: I mean, did that affect the coalition building or -- BB: No, no. JJ: -- segregation is (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: No, I mean, not really. Our biggest dilemma came with Students for a Democratic Society, RAM One, RAM Two, Bernadine, Jeff Jones, Mark Rudd, [Brian Dean?] and Bill Ayers. When they opened up their office over there on Ashland and Madison, we just [00:36:00] had problems with that because the whole intent was for them to go back to their respective communities to combat racism. JJ: And Ashland and Madison, what type of community was it? BB: It was a Black community. JJ: So, they were in the middle of a Black community. BB: Yeah. JJ: And most of them were White (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: All of them were White. JJ: All of them were White. BB: Yeah. JJ: So, you had a problem with that. BB: Well, yeah. I mean, the thing was is that y’all go in y’all community and organize, and educate the racists in your neighborhoods to understand and support what 16 �you guys are doing to bring about social change. And they never quite got that. We used to call them Mother Country Radicals as you very [00:37:00] well know. We never had a problem with Mike James, you know, Mike and I are still good friends, I just don’t get up to the Heartland Café ’cause it’s so damn far, you know, and then... JJ: And the reason for not everyone following Mike James... BB: Because Mike James was cool, Mike James was a greaser. JJ: He was organizing, a greaser. BB: Yeah, he was doing his -- he was, you know. JJ: He was doing his job -- BB: Yeah. JJ: -- organizing the greaser (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) in the White community. BB: Right, right. JJ: And the Young Patriots were doing the same thing in Uptown (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Exactly, exactly. JJ: Okay. BB: We never saw SDS as part of the Rainbow Coalition, you know what I’m sayin’? JJ: At that time (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: It never did. It never did. All right? JJ: I don’t wanna put words in... BB: No, no, we never did -- 17 �JJ: You never (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: -- particularly after October, [00:38:00] November in ’69 when they decided to break off and become the Weathermen. JJ: Okay. BB: You know what I’m sayin’? And they decided that they were going to go around and start blowing shit up, you know, they wanted to do some armed revolution. And we said no. They aligned themselves with Eldridge Cleaver and DLA and it hurt. Basically, what it was that we were trying to deal with our survival programs, we knew very well that we’re not ready for no armed struggle, we didn’t [00:39:00] have the weaponry and probably never will happen. The idea was to educate people, the idea was to heighten the contradictions and to use what we were doing as vanguard party to put the [masses of the?] people in a situation where they would see a need for change and make those necessary changes through a concept called protracted struggle. I have not given up, you know, it’s a process, it’s an ongoing process, you know what I’m sayin’, but you constantly have to organize, you constantly have to educate. And see that’s one of the things people don’t wanna talk about now in terms of what our intent was, [00:40:00] what our purpose was. JJ: So now, when you’re speaking, you’re not speaking individually, you’re saying that the party in Illinois was feeling the same thing you (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Well, actually, let me give you an example of something. JJ: I remember Fred Hampton also (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). 18 �BB: I know you do. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: (laughs) I know you do. But see the thing of it is that we did what we called party lines. JJ: I think some of them came later on when they started organizing, but at that moment (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, he was gone basically from April of ’69 to August ice cream truck shit, you know, he was in the joint. Then when he got out in August, he was gone... JJ: Ice cream truck meaning? BB: He allegedly stole... JJ: That’s where they accused [00:41:00] him (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Yeah. And he was out on appeal, and he was fighting it. JJ: He had taken some ice cream and then supposedly have given it to the -- BB: Right, right. JJ: -- kids in the neighborhood. BB: Right, right. And then from August going forward, four months later he was dead, assassinated, December the 4th. And between August, you know what I mean, we had like three police hit someone in our office, we had one in July, we had one in August and we had one in October, which was one I was in there on. And then later on in November there was a situation where Spurgeon Jake Winters had a confrontation with some police on the South Side, Gilhooly and Rappaport, [00:42:00] those were their names and they killed him, but he killed a couple of 19 �them. Then they intensified their efforts to just totally destroy -- and what people sometimes don’t recognize is that when that incident happened Spurgeon really wasn’t in the party. JJ: What incident, I mean, (inaudible) clear on -- the incident that (inaudible) Spurgeon -- what was the incident? BB: They had a shootout with the police. JJ: Okay, but I mean what was the basis, what was the police (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? BB: It wasn’t -- I don’t know. JJ: Stop and frisk? BB: I don’t know, I wasn’t there. I just know the end result. JJ: And you said there were three hits by the police, meaning that they came and raided the office three times. BB: Mm-hmm. [00:43:00] JJ: And the Panthers defended the office each time (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). I mean that’s what you’re saying or... BB: What I said was they hit our office three times, arrested us and beat the shit out of us on each occasion. I don’t know if you wanna call that defending, you know, I remember when they was beating the shit outta me, I didn’t feel like I was defending shit. You know what I’m sayin’ was some brutal shit they put down, you know what I’m sayin’? We were victims. JJ: Okay. 20 �BB: None of them were hurt, you know, because that’s not what we were about, we were about propagandizing, [00:44:00] we were about educating, we were about putting together programs. And they knew it, they had enough provocateur agents and informants in the Black Panther Party to know that we really wasn’t... JJ: You said provocateur agents, what was their role (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? BB: They would create situations to (audio cuts out) things that would allow the police to -- William O’Neal for instance was an excellent example of a provocateur agent. He was placed there by the FBI and the Gang Intelligence Unit. And he was called out on a number of times as being [00:45:00] a provocateur. JJ: I mean, what did you do? I know, I saw one time a homemade electric chair that he had created to (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: O’Neal was on the defense cadre, okay, security detail, you know, which meant that he was under the leadership of Bobby Rush. Each deputy minister had a cadre, you know, I mean we had structure. And on a number of occasions O’Neal was called to the carpet by Rush, Bobby Rush, the congressman, the preacher, the minister defended him and vouched for him. This is record stuff I’m talking, I don’t have a problem saying this. I don’t know if it was out of his naivete, [00:46:00] you know, I would not sit here and say that Bobby Rush was an agent for the government, but I will say that he had a security clearance as a member of the United States Military, which was hard at that point in time for a black man to get. Now, I can say that he left the United States Army and went to SNCC and left SNCC and came to the Black Panther Party. I can say that we 21 �never had a good relationship to this day. Reading in the paper today that he was in D.C. yesterday with a hoody on in support of Trayvon [00:47:00] Martin. With all the other kinda work, the Black Congressional Caucus can be about right now just in terms of enacting legislation and processes to impact poor people particularly in his district, that was a coward act to me. Enough of Bobby Rush. Nothing I’ve never said before. JJ: Okay, so you have not seen that (inaudible) within (inaudible) record is. BB: Oh, of course not. Of course not. When he ran for alderman, he ran on the platform of the party initially. When he first ran, [00:48:00] you know, he had a lot of comrade brothers and sisters out there working the precincts for him. Then once he got elected, he kinda like turned his back and he made this statement that people who support him can take care of themselves, which was like, okay. We had talked to him about sponsoring legislation in the City Council that will call for decentralization of the police which was one of our points in the 10-point platform. “If you can’t do nothing else Bobby, you know, just putt it out there.” He was in the position to do it. Harold wouldn’t sign off on it, Harold Washington. [00:49:00] But Harold couldn’t introduce the legislation, only an alderman can do that. And that was his first to me... JJ: What about like after Fred was killed, there was a raid on his house too, wasn’t there? BB: Well, interesting thing about that. (pause) They said it was police who (inaudible) stand over there in the Hilliard Homes on State Street, but he didn’t actually [live there?]. The irony is that he showed up at Breadbasket that same mornin’ with 22 �body guards from the African American Patrolmen [00:50:00] Association, hanging with Jesse who if you remember, we didn’t even mess with Jesse, you know. So, that’s all I gotta say about that. He wasn’t with no Panthers that next day, he was with the police. JJ: Let’s leave it there, I don’t wanna (inaudible). BB: No, honestly, I mean, you know, I’m just answering your questions. JJ: (inaudible). BB: If you get a chance to interview him, ask him about that, go ahead. JJ: No, no, no. I mean, he said, it’s understood that there was division within the... BB: Not divisions. JJ: Not division, but (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Contradictions. JJ: Contradictions, contradictions. BB: You know, contradictions. JJ: But you don’t see him as an enemy, I mean, it was just a contradiction (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: You know, [00:51:00] you got two words you’re playing with here. JJ: Okay, all right. BB: Okay, contradiction and contrary. JJ: Okay. BB: Okay? A lot of what he did was contrary to the principles of the Black Panter Party, okay? And he very well knew it. The contradiction part of it is that not being truthful, being a liar and just being [involved?] and not practicing what you 23 �should be doing, [00:52:00] so you contradict yourself with contrary behavior. Because if you apply to a marriage and me and you both know, I’ve been married four times, you know what I’m saying, because within that marriage there were contradictions, there was some contrary shit, so you could process it or not. (inaudible). JJ: Okay. I got you. (inaudible). So, tell me, before -- now this is at the end of -- not at the end, but it was a problematic situation within the party at that time. What I mean, Fred Hampton was murdered, killed, it affected the movement. At first the movement was strong [00:53:00], and then later on it did hurt. But before that, when Fred was alive, and the Panthers were -- can you kind of describe what was some of the work of the Panthers at that time? BB: Well, you know... JJ: (inaudible) work that took place. BB: From October... JJ: For people that don’t remember those times. BB: Well, from October to April, you know, our focus was on political education, organizing infrastructure. JJ: Were you public, I mean, were you having press conferences at that time, or no? BB: Of course. JJ: Did you have like an (inaudible) a period for training before you came out? BB: No, we just went right into it in October and started having political education classes, started organizing for our breakfast [00:54:00] program, we started selling our newspapers, we started soliciting people like Dr. [Cass?] and [Eric?] -- 24 �Quentin Young to be part of our medical center. We opened up our first breakfast program here in April of ’69. So, our whole time period from like October to April of ’69 was organizing, you know, selling newspapers, propagandizing. JJ: How did you get the cadre (inaudible)? BB: Well... JJ: It doesn’t happen like that overnight, I mean, you have to (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: When I say October to April, that’s not overnight? JJ: Well, that is [00:55:00] overnight, but... BB: No, it’s not. No, it’s not. No, it’s not. No, it’s not. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Uh-uh, it’s not overnight. JJ: Well, no, it was a few months. BB: You know what I’m sayin’? I mean, you have to realize something man, Fred Hampton wasn’t even an outside the wall of Black Panther for a year. We started in October of ’68, he went to the penitentiary in April of ’69, he got out in August of ’69, he was assassinated in December of ’69. So, when I say organize, when I say educate, when I say propagandize, you know, we hit just about every college, university in Chicago, we hit all the high schools. [00:56:00] We traveled to Northern and Southern, we hit Champaign, recruiting, we recruited college students. That’s how we got Doc, Doc was at Circle Campus. Chuckles was at Circle Campus. So, the critical piece was political education, so the 25 �people would understand the ideology and the philosophy and be able to articulate what our programs were and at the same time be able to implement ’em, you know. So, from October to April, you know, we were able to establish our breakfast program, we were able to establish donations with Quaker Oats, Joe Louis Milk, Parker House Sausage. We didn’t have no money. [00:57:00] So, we were able to do that. Then we started focusing on a medical center, organizing that, getting nurses, getting doctors, getting the community support. We were in the street, you know what I’m sayin’, we were on these university campuses, we was on these college campuses, we were on these junior college campuses, not so much as churches. That’s what I remember. We first got tight in Lincoln Park if you remember. And that was like a big rally out [00:59:00] there. At that time, I was drinking Bali Hai, I had a Bali Hai, you know, and then we had... JJ: You’re talking about Lincoln Park when Bobby Seale was there or (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? BB: No, no. When we got humbugging out there. JJ: In Lincoln Park. BB: Yeah. JJ: In the Lincoln Park neighborhood or the park itself? BB: Park. JJ: The park. Humbugging, I wasn’t there that day, I heard about it. BB: Yeah, but I’m just saying that’s when we really -- JJ: Humbugging meaning (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? 26 �BB: Fight, fight, fight. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Chaka was speaking and at that time they had, I think they called them self [Cloverstone?]. JJ: (inaudible). BB: And they was disruptive and disrespectful and they didn’t like the concept of a coalition, of a[00:59:00] you know. And we grew from there. Ain’t no point in talking about our other escapades Cha-Cha, but, you know, you get the drift of what struggling is, what community organizing is and how we did what we did. There’s so much more than I can talk about. JJ: Okay, so the programs were a means of getting the community also involved, no, or what? They did the promotions for the party and the -- even for us it (inaudible) in terms of the Young Lords, in terms of getting people involved. BB: That’s how you do it. [01:00:00] JJ: But you’re saying that wasn’t a big thing, the... BB: That’s how we survived. JJ: Okay, (inaudible). BB: I mean, every time the police would attack our office, the community would come out, and, yeah. JJ: Did they ever come out because of the work of the programs that they were (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? BB: Well, they knew we were providing them with a service that they otherwise would not have had. They did not like the idea that we were being harassed by police. 27 �We got in a lot of trouble in some ways because there were a lot of people wearing [01:01:00] berets, you know, field jackets who really weren’t party members and honestly did some shit that we got blamed for, but it is what it is, you know. We could not have survived after December the 4th without community support. After what they did to Fred man, even skeptical people, you know what I’m sayin’, even staunch Christians got mad because they knew that was wrong. You know what I’m sayin’, they knew that was wrong. They knew it was incorrect. And [01:02:00] I wouldn’t be here today if I had not gotten the support of people who believed in the work we did, trust me, and the work that we’re going to continue to do. And you know how difficult it is, you know what we went through, and you know we’re gonna continue to go through, it’s a protracted struggle. And one of the more difficult things I find is that -- I’ve got some comrades doing this Illinois history project on the Black Panther Party. When we initially started, I told them, I said, “How the fuck do write history when you’re fuckin’ making history?” You know what I’m sayin’? Because ain’t gonna be no conclusion, that shit’s [01:03:00] constantly, constantly changing unless you’re doing a documentary like what you’re doing, you know what I’m sayin’? And I understand why you’re doing it. But I do believe that, you know, I believe in you Cha-Cha, you know, we did seen some things together and we did did some things together and we’re gonna continue, even though I’m a better disc jockey than you are. JJ: (inaudible). (Laughter) BB: I can’t stand the smell of it. 28 �JJ: (inaudible). BB: Yeah. But this can be a beginning of something ’cause anything else salient in your mind, you wanna shoot at me? JJ: Did you see any [01:04:00] connections in terms of the Young Lords and the Panthers, what were some of the events that connect -- what were some of the things that we did together? BB: Well, you know, the thing about it was that... JJ: Then you remember the (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Oh man, yeah. I can’t talk about shit like that on here, I really will get into some trouble. But what I can say was that when you talk about coalition politics, you gotta have partners, you gotta have partners that you believe in, you gotta have people that you believe in, ’cause you’re talking about two different organizations, the Young Lords and the Black Panther Party. And you guys, particularly up under your leadership, and how you studied [01:05:00], you know, how we used to sit down and talk, how you used to collaborate with Fred, the times that he saved my ass, you know what I’m sayin’, other things that can’t be mentioned. But there would not have been a Rainbow Coalition as we know Rainbow Coalition to be in the State of Illinois without the Young Lords. Simply because you guys were organizers, you understood the street, and you looked at some of the things that we were doing and said, “That shit makes sense.” You know what I’m sayin’? And you put it into practice, you know what I’m sayin’? And I tell brothers this [01:06:00] today, calling themselves street tramps, I said, “As long as y’all out here doing this here, you’re not a threat, but the minute you start 29 �talking about organizing, the minute you start telling people they should vote, the minute you start telling young people to go to school, get a good education, that’s when you become a threat, and that’s when they’re gonna come at you.” You know what’s I’m sayin’? I would like to see another coalition come about of people working across communities like we used to do. We made a difference in Lincoln Park, you know, we made a difference over here in North Lawndale. We had our breakfast program here, we had our medical center a couple of blocks over and that was all based on the fact that we processed the needs of the people. [01:07:00] You know what I’m sayin’? We fed people initially and people started supporting us, we started testing people for sickle-cell anemia, you know, free. There were no free health clinics in Chicago at that time. You know what I’m sayin’? You guys emulated that because it works. And there are times when you ask me a question Cha-Cha that’s opened up all kind of different thought processes and I might not pinpoint an answer to you. But the Young Lords and the Black Panther Party here in the State of Illinois, [01:08:00] I can sum it up by saying this, we came together as brothers, and we trusted each other. That was in 1969, today is 2012 and we’re still doing it and we’re going to keep doing it. And it’s based on the ideology, it’s based on philosophical understanding, it's based on principles of struggle. Does that mean we don’t make mistakes? No. We’ve had our ups and downs personally, organizationally, but we done survive for some fuckin’ reason. I had no idea that me and you would ever [01:09:00] be sitting down, you know, “What’s that mother fuckin’ Cha-Cha interviewing me, who the fuck taught him how to use a god damn 30 �camera?” (laughs) You know, you’re [Howard Alton?] now, you’re [Mike Grayden?] now. You know what I’m sayin’? You’re documenting man, you know what I’m sayin’, and it’s phenomenal. And that in itself speaks more to who we were then and who we are now. Our struggle for human rights, our struggle for justice, it is just as intense now as it was 42, 43, 44 years ago, you know, we’re just on a different [01:10:00] stage of the game. I’m trying to accelerate what I’m doing. I’ll be 64 years old, I didn’t even think I’d see fuckin’ 30. Most of my life since 1971, ’72, I already had one daughter in the party in ’69, but my children became my focal point. Now my focal point are my grandchildren, giving them some insight, giving them some love, so that they will understand the type of things that they need to do not only to survive in America, but thrive [01:11:00] just in terms of making a difference. If I can’t do more than that, I’m good. JJ: Anything that you wanna add? That was what I wanted to add. What did you wanna add? BB: I’m good. JJ: You’re good, okay. END OF AUDIO FILE 31 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/209cd4e0bb793ed039cf37970288221f.mp4 e2e825a461636b871fe30060e5ffcbf2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Billy “Che” Brooks vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Afro-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Hampton, Fred, 1948-1969 Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capítulo Afro-Americanos--Relatos personales Juventud--Illinois--Chicago Relaciones raciales Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Brooks_Billy Title A name given to the resource Billy “Che” Brooks video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brooks, Billy Description An account of the resource Billy “Che” Brooks is Deputy Minister of Education of the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense (BPP) and Director of YouthLAB@1521 through the Better Boys Foundation. In 1969, Mr. Brooks was very close to Chairman Fred Hampton who was the main spokesman of the Black Panther Party in Illinois. As one of the primary leaders of the BPP, Mr. Brooks was under constant, daily harassment by the Chicago Red Squad and Gang Intelligence Unit. He also worked closely with the Young Lords through the Rainbow Coalition. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) African Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Hampton, Fred, 1948-1969 Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter African Americans--Personal narratives Youth--Illinois--Chicago Race relations Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-28 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/35a010bae013091293b3f189d0b15353.mp4 6f25c4e1761cfb64a9c1c3879c782436 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d5a3f2ddcae25e8ff4266566dd08144d.pdf 0c7222c03fe04298b9bb05871f5984f8 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Ed Brooks Length: 32:06 (00:15) Background Information • Ed was born in Mt. Pleasant, Michigan in 1940 • He had 2 brothers, his father was a farmer and his mother a housewife • Ed went to Hoover elementary school and then a larger school in the city after 8th grade • He played baseball and basketball in high school and graduated in 1959 • After graduation Ed worked at a gas station for a while and then decided to enlist in the Army in 1962 (8:40) Training • Ed was sent to Fort Knox in Kentucky for basic training in October of 1962 • He trained and worked in the motor pool, repairing jeeps and trucks (10:40) Korea • Ed was sent to Korea on a troop ship and was very sick the first 3 days of the trip • In Korea, there was very hot weather and the smell was terrible • There were a few civilians that they worked with and some of them spoke English • Ed spent 1 year in Korea and thought the food was great there • He worked driving jeeps and other vehicles and was never in any combat • Ed later took another troop ship back to the US and landed in San Francisco a month later • He was discharged in San Francisco after serving for 2 years (16:45) Back in US �• One year after being discharged Ed got married back home in Mt. Pleasant • He continued working at the gas station and now has 3 children and 4 grandchildren • He recently broke his hip working and was recovering at the Masonic Home at the time of the interview � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Brooks, Ed (Interview outline and video), 2004 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brooks, Ed Description An account of the resource Ed Brooks served in the US Army between 1962 and 1964. He trained as a mechanic and worked in motor pools at bases in the US and in South Korea, where he served for a full year. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer) Collins, Carol (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2004-06-26 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BrooksE Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/91ef98006067c60b45310490df639eb7.mp4 88e98e8dbdad0ac74b66bf6b40c10884 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2cf9ab29e1f4ba1e3256b71bf05844b5.pdf cac9dcdee6e1289dc45448bf4b6fe154 PDF Text Text GVSU Veterans History Project Mary Jean Brooks Interviewed by Frank Boring Transcribed by Emilee G. Johnson, Western Michigan University, September 2012 Interviewer: Mary Jean could you begin first by saying your full name including your maiden name? Mary Jean: My maiden name was Mary Jean Wood and my married name is Brooks. Interviewer: And, Mary Jean, where were you born? Mary Jean: I was born in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, but from age 5, I grew up in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Interviewer: What was your schooling like—your early schooling? Mary Jean: Well, I went to the public schools in Grand Rapids, Michigan, I graduated from 1:00 East Grand Rapids High School in 1939, and then I went on to Michigan State University, um, got a bachelor’s degree in home economics education in 1943. Interviewer: Well, ’43... you already heard about Pearl Harbor. Mary Jean: Oh, yes…Pearl Harbor occurred when I was a junior in college and I remember it vividly. It was on a Sunday, and um, the campus was in an uproar. Some of the men literally left immediately to enlist, and a lot of the men were in ROTC, so they were called up very soon. And by the time my senior year rolled around, there were very few men on campus other than some military units 2:00 that were being trained there. Interviewer: What was your reaction to the actual event, personally? What did you feel like or what was your reaction when you first heard it happened? Mary Jean: Well it was a shock. It was more of a shock for many of my girlfriends who had boyfriends that they were planning on marrying. I wasn’t in that situation, but uh, a lot of them, there were a lot of hurried up marriages that occurred, um, shortly after that, before the men went overseas. But it was a shock and of course campus life kind of came to a screaming halt, the social life, uh, but we finished our degrees and went on, of course. Interviewer: Did you at the time of Pearl Harbor have any inkling that you were going to eventually become part of the military, was that…? �Mary Jean: No, I don’t think so, 3:00 not at that time. Interviewer: Uh, now you graduate from college, but before you do that you were actually involved with USO activities, is that correct, while you were still in college? Mary Jean: No, no, that was when I was working, oh, after college, I uh, well, I wanted to be an airline stewardess—it sounded so glamorous, and my father absolutely had a fit. He said, “I did not pay for your education for you to be a glorified servant!” So, with tears in my eyes, I accepted an offer to teach in Traverse City, Michigan. So, um, I went up there in the northwoods, and um, there was a Naval Air Station there in Traverse City. Uh, so it wasn’t a bad…socially, it wasn’t a bad assignment and I enjoyed the teaching, and uh, we teachers 4:00 used to date the pilots that were out at the air station, and we volunteered at the USO in town and used to go and visit with the young men and help them write letters home and put on suppers and events for them. Interviewer: Um, it was soon after that period though, that uh, you joined the WAVES…I’m wondering how did that come about? Mary Jean: Well, I was, uh, rooming with another teacher, and I don’t know, we got it in our heads that we wanted to join the service…It’s funny you don’t remember exactly how it happened. One thing that I do remember was that there was a WAC officer (WAC is Women Army Corps) uh, who was up in Traverse City trying to recruit teachers and she wined and dined us. 5.00 Uh, and that may have put up the idea in our heads, I don’t know. But, uh, we got to talking about joining the service, but when we discovered that the WACs wore khaki underwear [laughs] we didn’t want to be in the WACs, you know, when you’re 22 those things are important. And of course we’d been exposed to the Navy up there at the Naval Air Station and my father had been in the Navy in World War I. Alice’s mother had been in a, um, oh, it was like a secretary corps in World War I in the Navy. So anyhow, we decided on the Navy. We made our applications and waited and waited. School was out, we got accepted, but we had to…we were waiting for our orders so we both took jobs for the summer in Traverse City. 6:00 And I was working as a chemist, uh, in a cherry cannery. Um, we were uh, testing every 50 th can of cherries or whatever, to make sure that, you know, the pits didn’t go through or anything. So one day, I was there at the cannery, and this car from the Naval Air Station drives up and they’re asking for me, and here they are, they’re coming to pick me up, take me to the air station and swear me into the Navy. [laughs] So there I was with cherry stains on my hands and a big apron on me and they took me out there and I swore into the Navy. And then shortly after that, uh, I received my orders to um, report to Smith College in Northampton, Massachusetts, for officers’ training. 7:00 Now, the um, the WAVES, by the way, the WAVES, the letters stood for Women Accepted for Voluntary Emergency Service. Uh, they…you could enlist as an officer, you didn’t have to come up through the ranks if you were a college graduate. So I went straight �into officers’ training in Northampton. And I remember going out there, and uh, I was alone because Alice hadn’t gotten her orders at the same time I had, so I went alone on a train, uh went to Springfield, Massachusetts and then took the little commuter train to Northampton. And uh, you know a whole bunch of us ratty-looking civilian uniform. 8:00 girls being met by all these girls in Interviewer: Uh, you were talking earlier about the train trip over, uh, if you could describe your feelings…and then the actual ride over, what did you find? Mary Jean: Well the little train that I took from Springfield to Northampton was full of girls who were on their way for WAVE officer training. And we were all very excited, and apprehensive, we didn’t know what to expect. But, when the train arrived and we got off the train, here were all these girls in their snappy uniforms, greeting us. And, uh, we felt welcomed, we really did. And of course we were ushered into a big building and they uh, 9:00 I think right off the bat they issued our uniforms, you know. Uh, we got a winter uniform which was the blue uniform which was a grey and white sear-sucker dress with a jacket, matching jacket that went over it and then a dress summer uniform that was like a white sear-sucker. We hated those. [laughs] And then shirts and ties and purses and shoes—oh, the shoes were awful! Just awful! [laughs] They were…they looked like, I don’t know, they were clunky and they didn’t fit and we all got blisters from marching. As soon as we got out of training we rushed out and got some decent shoes. [laughs] Interviewer: Let’s go back uh, to before training, uh you arrived there and you were met by women in uniform, uh 10:00 there was a certain sense of excitement about it, because here you’re seeing what you’re going to be like very soon. Mary Jean: Yes. Interviewer: But where were you actually brought to, I mean, what kind of environment did you live in, where did you eat? Mary Jean: Well, we were at Smith College. Now, there were still college students that were there also, but uh, the Navy and the WAVES had taken over a couple of the dormitories and we were fed in the Northampton Inn, uh, which was a lovely hotel. Now, we were fed Navy style, you know, we had our trays and we went down…like uh, cafeteria style. But the food was good, uh, so…and then we used classrooms in the college also uh, for our classes. Interviewer: Well, tell us a little about these classes, what was a typical day on the first part of your training? Mary Jean: Well we 11:00 did a lot of training that was very much like men’s basic training except we didn’t use any guns. We marched and we marched and we marched, we marched �everywhere, to class, to mess, we had drills on the field, we did a lot of marching, it was…it was very physically demanding. Interviewer: Now, when you see film footage or movie depictions of men’s basic training, they had fatigues and boots…what were you marching around in? Mary Jean: We marched in our regular uniforms. And I was there in the fall, so we wore our winter uniforms. Every morning when you got up, on the loudspeaker it came and they told you what the uniform of the day was and what you were to wear, um, so, yeah. And we always wore uniforms, 12:00 you could never be out of uniform during the war. Uh, today, I guess, when you’re off duty you don’t have to wear a uniform, but that was not the case during World War II. In the classes, oh, they taught us to recognize all the Navy aircraft and Navy ships, we learned all the Navy lingo. Um, we had, uh, oh, updates on how the war was going every day, um, kind of news-types that would give us updates. Interviewer: By updates, are you talking about, “we’ve taken over this particular place,” or “the Germans are attacking us here,” or was it more in general, was it specifics or general? Mary Jean: It was specifics except we didn’t get any top secret information, but, uh, no it was 13:00 quite specific, what was going on in the war. We were really, uh, we knew pretty much what was going on. Interviewer: Did you have any idea, I’m talking about the early part of your training, you just arrived there, you’re only starting to go to classes, of what your role in this war was going to be? Mary Jean: No. Um, nobody knew what their assignment was going to be. We knew we were going to be officers. If we washed out, you could, you had the choice of going home or enlisting in the ranks, um, that was a choice. And some women did wash out. Interviewer: Well, let’s discuss first of all, cause people may not, I know what wash out is but what is wash out mean and what does it mean to return to the ranks? Mary Jean: Oh! Washing out means, uh, not making it, basically, for physical reasons or for the classroom work or maybe for some behavior that 14:00 isn’t appropriate. Um, ranks means enlisted ranks. Um, we learned all the Navy regulations, there was quite a bit of learning involved. Interviewer: Well, to wash out uh, somehow, means there were some kinds of tests that were given, so please talk about that. Mary Jean: Oh, yes. Well, we had tests in our classes and uh, you know the physical aspect of it, we did calisthenics and we had to swim. Now I knew how to swim, I never know a soul that didn’t know how to swim, but everybody that joined the Navy had to be taught to swim if they �didn’t know how. Um, and all the marching. Some of the women, some of the older women particularly just…they couldn’t take it. Interviewer: Um was there any, and once again, we’re only talking about the early days now, 15:00 any kind of social life after you finished with the training, you’ve had your dinner, were you just too tired to go anywhere or were there actually places you could go? Mary Jean: No, we had, um, I’m trying to think. I don’t think that we did anything socially during basic training. Once I had my commission and I was being trained in the communications school, then we would have, uh, weekends off, and we could get off base. Interviewer: Ok, I don’t want to go that far yet. Mary Jean: Ok. Interviewer: All right, so basic training, obviously you passed that, physically as well as the tests and everything. Um, at some point you were involved in a special drill team, is that right? Mary Jean: Yes. Interviewer: Ok, tell us about the special drill team. Mary Jean: Well, apparently I got pretty good at it. And it is fun to drill. Interviewer: I don’t know what you’re talking about. Mary Jean: Drilling is marching and following orders, 16:00 you know. Interviewer: So what is the special drill team? Mary Jean: That was a group of, oh I can’t remember, oh the Special Drill Team was a group of women, probably 20 of us, I don’t remember for sure. Uh, and we’d go around and do demonstrations. We’d go to schools and uh, different events all around Northampton, we didn’t go any farther. But we didn’t drill with guns or dummy guns, it was just a drilling with orders to drill. Interviewer: Uh, we’re going to leave now and enter into the Special Communications School, but is there anything you can think of now that was extraordinary or special or…that you can remember from that basic training period that you want to say. Mary Jean: Well, we all 17:00 had blisters, I’ll tell you. At sick call every night there were people going in and getting their blisters fixed. Oh, it was terrible and I uh…when we were commissioned, that’s when you get your rank, we were commissioned as ensigns in the Navy, Naval Reserve. I was so worn out, I got sick and I had to be in sick bay for a couple days and all I did was lay in bed and think of that wonderful hat with the insignia on it, I was so thrilled to �have it. It’s just the proudest day of your life and I know my parents were proud too, my father was thrilled to death that I was in the Navy. But then, of course, orders, we were all waiting— where are we going to go? Everybody wanted to go to an air station, that was 18:00 …sounded real glamorous. But guess what? Almost all of the younger WAVES were sent to communications school. And communications school was right there on the Smith College campus again. They had taken over one of the buildings there and you…we lived in that building and had our classes in that building. Basically we were learning to code and decode messages. We learned a lot of typing [laughs], a lot of nonsensical typing, because the machines—now there were several coding devices that they used but primarily we used a machine. And the machines…uh, the code would come out in 5-letter groups, so if you were typing 19:00 a code into the machine, you would just type in these nonsensical groups of 5 letters. And if you did it right and the machine was set right, it would come out plain language or you would type plain language in and it would come out these 5-letter groups. And that was the main coding device that the Navy used. Uh, on some of the small ships on the outposts, they didn’t have the machines and they used a device called flat strip where they moved strips of paper back and forth. Interviewer: But this is all part of your training… Mary Jean: That was all part of our training and the typing was, and it’s hard to type a bunch of letters that don’t mean anything, it’s amazing. Interviewer: Um, this is going to sound like a very stupid question but I just did you have any idea of what this training was going to be used for? 20:00 want to ask, Mary Jean: Uh, yes, we knew we were going to be doing code work. Now at that point in time, we didn’t know where. I mean, it…there were a lot of places you could be assigned to do code work. Quite a few of the women went to San Francisco but the majority of us were sent to Washington, D.C., to the Navy Department, and that’s where my orders were from. Interviewer: Let’s not go there that quickly. Um, I’d like to talk more about the, uh, the communications school. Uh, give us an idea of what your day was like and what your week was like during the first few weeks of your training. Mary Jean: Well, uh, I’d like to go back just a little bit because my friend Alice was called a month 21:00 after I was called. So I was already a midshipman when she arrived in Northampton and I was part of the greeting committee. It was just wonderful [laughs] to greet her and I’m sure she was glad to see me. And she was also assigned to communications, so she was always coming along a month after me uh, and there’s more to that later. But yeah, uh, our day in communications school…we didn’t do as much marching, first of all, it wasn’t quite as regimented. We went to our classes and we went to mess and all that, um, we still had our �briefings on the war. But, uh, we had time off, we could go into town and shop and get decent shoes, and we had our weekends off 22:00 and uh, we would often go into Springfield and do something. Interviewer: So in a typical day, it’s almost like college, you’re just going to classes and then you have a meal break and then more classes. Uh, homework? Mary Jean: Uh, I don’t remember, I think we did it all in classes. Interviewer: And then your classes, day to day, throughout a week, were they like a college where you went to one class on one day and then another class another day or how was that spread out? Mary Jean: Well, in communications school, it just all ran together, all the classes, uh, you were pretty much in the room, which would be like a code room and you were typing and running the machines and that kind of thing. Interviewer: How many women were in a class—your classes? 10? 15? 20? Well, larger than 5 or less than 10 or--? 23:00 Mary Jean: Maybe 20. Interviewer: OK Mary Jean: Maybe more. I really don’t remember. We were 2 months in that training and 2 months in basic training. Interviewer: And then what happened after that, the training was over with? Mary Jean: Well, that…then you wait for your orders again! [laughs] And, uh, I got orders to Washington, D.C., the Navy Department. Interviewer: And what was your reaction to that? Mary Jean: Disappointment. Didn’t sound very glamorous to me—what about this air station that I was going to go to? You know, but it turned out very well. Washington was a very exciting place to be and I’m happy I was assigned there but you know we all had stars in our eyes. Interviewer: So, you’re packing up, you got your orders, you’re packing up at Smith. How did you get to Washington? Mary Jean: Took the train, and of course 24:00 a lot of us went together. Um, and I had made two very good friends in communications school. The problem with going to Washington was, the Navy would not provide housing for the WAVE officers, there were no barracks for them. We had to find our own housing and um, and we got a housing allowance. So when we first �arrived, the 3 of us got rooms at the YWCA, uh and then, you know we had to report for work at the Navy Department. And that Navy Department was a ramshackle old building that was built for World War I, it was a temporary building, they were not in the Pentagon like they are now. And it was just a creaky-floored old building, it smelled musty, there was no air conditioning, it was uh, 25:00 well, it was ramshackle. It was right across the street from, uh, the Department of Agriculture. It’s no longer there, it’s been torn down. But anyhow, we arrived at the Navy Department and we were directed to the code room. Interviewer: What time of the month—what period of the year are we talking about here? Mary Jean: Well, we’re talking winter. Interviewer: Ok. Mary Jean: All right? And…would’ve been right about uh, I think it was December or January. In fact, it seems to me that after communications school I was able to go home for Christmas and then reported to Washington, now that I think of it. Interviewer: So, Washington, although it doesn’t get the kind of weather as Grand Rapids, it still is pretty cold. Mary Jean: Oh, yes! Interviewer: Let’s talk about the ramshackle building in the cold, ok? Mary Jean: Drafty. 26:00 And they get snow in Washington, and I’ll tell you about one snowstorm later but, um, yeah, it was cold and we had over our hats—we had these lovely hats that were designed by Schiaparelli and they were beautiful hats, but uh, you changed the tops. You had a white top, a gray-and-white-striped top or a blue top to go with the different uniforms. Uh, but we had something called a Havelock which was a blue wool cover that came down around here [motions to back of neck] and you put over your hat if it rained. But we used to do it when it was cold to keep our ears warm. Or we’d wear them when our hair was up in curlers so we wouldn’t take our curlers out until we got to work. [laughs] But yes, it wasn’t a nice building it was a very drafty old building. 27:00 it was cold and Interviewer: So where was the communications room and can you describe what it looked like when you came into it? Mary Jean: I can’t even remember exactly where it was anymore. Uh, it was just one great big room full of these machines and there were some side offices. Our commanding officer had his own office and there was, um, there was another special room that we called “the dog house,” actually I was assigned to that room. And in that room, we had to try to decode messages where people had done something wrong, had used the code for the wrong day or, you know, the wrong �wheels in the machine or whatever. 28:00 So there was that room and then there was another room called “the conference room,” and eventually Alice was assigned to that and that was a neat assignment. First of all I should mention that when I got to Washington and Alice was a month behind me, she’d been sent to communications school, I asked my commanding officer to request her, which he did, so she wound up in Washington and we lived together there. But anyhow, she got assigned later to this conference room, where the admirals would come in and would have conferences with the admirals in the fleet and the machinery would scramble their conversations and Alice would run all the machinery and of course she met all this 29:00 top brass! [laughs] Admiral King and all these pin up boys that we had! [laughs] It was really quite exciting for her. Interviewer: Uh, let’s get back to your first days and weeks in the communications department. Um, you mentioned, you had these machines, which you’d already been trained on. Mary Jean: Mmhmm. Interviewer: Ok? What were the nature of the messages coming in to be decoded? Are we talking about messages from our side are we talking about messages that were captured by German or Japanese? Mary Jean: No, they were from our side. Now, there was another communication building and some of the women were sent to that where they were breaking enemy code. And I don’t know how they did that, we weren’t trained to do that. But that was another, you know, branch of the communications. We were uh, 30:00 doing our own code and most of the messages were from the fleet in the Pacific, uh, back to the Navy Department. Interviewer: Without trying to give away secrets or anything, give us an idea of what types of messages were being decoded. Mary Jean: Well, an awful lot of them seemed to be quite routine. They’d be uh, well, for instance, we used to get a lot of messages from a place called Ulithi. It was out in the Pacific. Turns out Ulithi is a uh, shoot, what do they call it, well it’s like an island with a big harbor in the middle of it. And it’s where all the ships would be gathered to get ready for an invasion. And so, we get these lists from Ulithi of all the ships that were, 31:00 uh, there at harbor and also all the supplies and munitions and everything that was being gathered, you know, getting ready for an invasion. There were a lot of those. We also got a lot of casualty lists which were sad of course. Uh, and a variety of orders, uh, you know, the orders all went back and forth. Orders that went within the fleet would come to Washington. And then there were orders from the admirals in the fleet to the admirals in Washington. You know, you knew what was going on, but some of it I didn’t understand. Like the names of these places, I never knew what Ulithi was till I got out. �I had no idea what it was, it was just these long equipment. 32:00 lists of you know, munitions and Interviewer: Now, I want you to give us an idea of incoming coded messages being decoded. Where do they go from there? Mary Jean: Oh, then we would deliver them. Because we handled all confidential, secret and top secret. They all had to be handled by officers. There were also restricted messages uh, and nonclassified messages. They were uh, all handled by uh, non-commissioned people. Not only did we decode them but then we would deliver them to whomever they were sent to. And uh, every once in a while you got to go to the White House to deliver 33:00 the message. I can remember that was really exciting. They’d send a Navy car around for you and you’d sit in the back seat and they’d drive up to the gate at the White House and the guard would ask for your credentials and then he’d give you a smart salute, you know, you drive in. Then you go in a side door and down in the basement and they had a room that was called “the war room,” knock on the door and somebody opens it up a crack and grabs the message and that’s it, you’re gone! [laughs] I never saw the president or anybody but you know, it was exciting to do that. Interviewer: Um, part of this I’m sure was somewhat mundane— Mary Jean: Yes. Interviewer: You know the day to day [garbled]. But out of all that can you recall any particular incidents that may have stood out, funny things that might have happened, or as you say, going to the White House 34:00 was a big deal, but other things that might have happened? Mary Jean: Well it really was more like a job, you know. Especially since we had our own housing, you know, you get on the bus and go down to the Navy Department and go to your job. We worked watches (they called them in the Navy) but that’s shift work. We would work 2 days each shift, 7 to 11 in the morning 2 days, then 11, how does that go, 11 to 7, then 7 to 11 [laughs] then 11 to 7. In between each watch, you know, 2 days on each one, you get 24 hours off. And then when you run the whole cycle, you get 48 hours off. In our 48 35:00 hours off, we used to go and play, you know, go to New York and see a play or we’d go to the beach and we’d go out to the Naval Air Station at Anacostia and see if we could bum a ride somewhere in the airplane. Uh, but it was kind of hard on your constitution because nothing ever was the same especially at night watch, it was really hard. Interviewer: Uh I want to cover two different things but you don’t often get a view of New York City during the war. Mary Jean: Oh, yes. �Interviewer: Give us an idea of what it was like, put us in your shoes—you’re arriving, this young woman in New York City and, on leave. Tell me what you [garbled] Mary Jean: Well, first of all, um, where do you stay in New York City? Well, there was a um, I believe it was on 5th Avenue, there was this big, uh, 36:00 mansion that had been turned into a military women’s hotel. And you could go and stay there free if you were, you know, a woman in uniform. There were…it was a beautiful mansion but they just had rooms with bunk beds in them. But that’s where we almost always stayed. And then you could get reduced price tickets because you were in uniform so we would go to plays and we would too, often go to radio shows and see them and, well, everybody was in uniform. Especially in Washington, young people, if you saw a young person not in uniform, a man particularly, people would go, “Gee, I wonder why.” And I had a very good friend, a young man that I went to high school with. 37:00 He was a chemical engineer and he was working on the atom bomb (we didn’t know that, you see) in Tennessee. And of course he was not in uniform. And I remember he came to visit me in Washington, and we went out, and here I am in uniform and he’s not. [laughs] Anyhow, people just looked sideways at us like, “what’s going on there?” Interviewer: Well I fully understand that cause my dad, he went through the same thing, he was working, didn’t realize it, on the Manhattan Project, they didn’t tell him cause they wouldn’t let him join, so he had that same kind of experience. You say everybody was in uniform in New York, I mean— Mary Jean: It just felt that way. Interviewer: Yeah, ok. Yeah. Uh, radio shows, was there any particular personality you were able to sit it on, Bob Hope or any of those people? Mary Jean: Uh, Fred Waring I remember. 38:00 It was a music show. I can’t remember any of the others. We saw Oklahoma, standing room only. [laughs] And after I met my future husband, we would go to New York and take in some plays when we were still in uniform. Interviewer: Even though you’re out on leave and you’re relieved to get away from the daily routine of the work, was there still, was there a sense of the war, did people try to forget it or was there a sense of…I’m trying to get an idea of the environment, the kind of emotional environment, of coming into town and…I know if I went to New York to go, to see a play, I would be in a certain frame of mind but I’m not going during World War II, so I guess, how was, did you see, were people apprehensive or just like it was a normal day? Mary Jean: It felt normal. Uh, it was, you know, that’s the way it was. 39:00 Um, in Washington, of course, you know, they had blackouts, and the capital lights never went on until I think it was VJ day that the lights finally went on. But no, that’s the way it was. Now it was very very sad, you know, I would hear of a friend’s husband who had been killed, and uh… But it was �a way of life and people made sacrifices. You know there were…we had food stamps. Even in the Navy we had food stamps. When we kept house ourselves, you know, you couldn’t get very much meat or butter and there were gasoline stamps but we didn’t have a car anyhow, there was no point in having one because you can’t get gasoline enough. And you saved tin cans, 40:00 and um, I don’t know, it’s just what you did. [laughs] You were at war. And uh, people accepted that. Interviewer: Was there a strong sense amongst you and your colleagues that you were fighting something pretty evil, that you knew that this was— Mary Jean: Oh yes, oh yes. Absolutely. Interviewer: Could you talk about that a little bit? Mary Jean: Uh, well there was a huge sense of patriotism in the country I mean everybody was pulling together. Uh, you know and it was hard for our generation when the Vietnam War came along and people weren’t you know, as patriotic, because we were. All of us and our parents were, the whole country was pulling together. And you know, you’d go somewhere and people would see you in uniform and they’d greet you, and they’d be pleased to see you in uniform. 41:00 Uh, it was neat! Um, it was a hard time, but it was an exciting time for a young person, it really was. I, uh, I was very fortunate that I didn’t run off and get married and that I had this experience. I was a maturing experience and it was a very exciting experience too. Interviewer: You know we look at, uh, as historians, we look at some of the posters and news items about people like Hitler and the Japanese and all that, um, they’re almost cartoon-like characters, whereas…these people were trying to knock off half the world and were literally…did you have a sense that…I guess what I’m trying to get at, Mary Jean, is beyond the propaganda element, did you have a, even at that young age, a sense that this was a real evil out there that had to be stopped? Mary Jean: 42:00 Oh yes. Yes, but you know the interesting…uh, Germany and Italy too, you know, they were the bad guys, there was evil, but we didn’t know at that time what Hitler really was doing. I mean, that evil didn’t come out until it was almost all over. My goodness, if we had known then, you talk about experiencing evil. No, we had no idea that he was purging the Jews. Terrible [shakes head], terrible. Interviewer: Um, who were…I don’t expect names per say, but if you do remember names, it’s great, I know a lot of people came and went through the code room, uh, admirals and captains and whatever, I mean, do you remember any incidents when individuals came in who either impressed you or you noticed, or…? �Mary Jean: There were some that sent messages. Admiral Halsey 43:00 was one. Uh, he sent the most colorful messages! I mean, we could hardly wait to get a message from Admiral Halsey! [laughs] “Bull Halsey” they called him. Uh, Admiral King, I think, came through once, but no, the really high-ups were cloistered. [laughs] Uh, there were a lot of captains around and… Interviewer: Well let’s talk about messages then, I mean, why did you have such a reaction to Admiral Halsey? I mean, I know a little bit about him, but— Mary Jean: Well, well, he used swear words and you know, they were colorful! [laughs] He was a character, he was. [laughs] Interviewer: So, what were the nature of some of those colorful messages, I mean, he was trying to get some kind of equipment or trying to get something done? Mary Jean: Yeah, if something hadn’t arrived that he’d asked for, you know “Get” [laughs] yeah, very strong, angry messages. “Do something!” [laughs] 44:00 Interviewer: But to you all this was actually a high point of the day because it was entertaining! Mary Jean: [laughs] Yeah. Interviewer: That’s great. Mary Jean: Uh, the messages would come out in little strips. It was a little bit like Western Union used to be, it’d come out in little strips and then you’d paste the strips on paper, yellow paper, that looked just like the old Western Union messages, they didn’t come out like a Xerox machine or anything, you had to paste them on the sheets of yellow paper. Interviewer: Now these are the messages that had already been decoded? Mary Jean: Yes. Interviewer: OK Mary Jean: When they came in. Interviewer: Well let’s go through the process that the code comes through, on one of these machines you were describing… Mary Jean: Yeah, every day, you received the code for the day. 45:00 And you set the machines. The machines had, I don’t know, 3 or 4 wheels in them and the wheels had to be set in a certain way. And everybody in the whole Navy was supposed to set their wheels that way that day. And then when the machines…when the messages came in, if they had set the right code for �the right day, uh, then you type it in your machine and it would come out all right. Now if they did something wrong, well, then, you have a problem. Interviewer: You go to the dog house? Mary Jean: [Laughs] That’s right. But yes, they’d come in and then you’d type them in. And they come out in these little strips. Interviewer: Um, the other part I want to talk about is bumming rides, hitchhiking if you will, on airplanes, I think people would like to hear about this. Mary Jean: Well, it had some perks to it, 46:00 you know, uh, it wasn’t all work. Um, my girlfriends and I used to go out to the naval air station when we had time off and sit around see if we could get a ride to somewhere. And I remember one very specifically, four of us…no three of us, had uh, leave. Two weeks leave. And we decided to go to Cuba, which was off-limits to civilians. So we went out to the Anacostia naval air station and told them that we were heading in that direction, and was anybody going in our direction? We waited and waited and waited and finally there was a plane going to Albany, Georgia. And we thought, oh let’s get on that one and at least we’d be on our way. 47:00 So we get into this plane with this pilot and we wind up at this little naval air station in Albany, Georgia. Nowhere! And there we are! The commanding officer there says, “What am I going to do with you girls?” [laughs] We were stuck there! Nobody was going anywhere. And finally—we stayed overnight there—finally the commanding officer says, “Well, I’ve got to get my air time in for my flight pay this month.” He said, “I’ll fly you to,” uh, uh, where was it? I want to say Pensacola but that’s not right. Anyhow, a place in Florida where the naval air transport came in. So he flew us there and then we sat around there to get a flight to Cuba. And uh, 48:00 finally they came through with two seats. And there were three of us. And they said, “well,” you know, “we’ve just got two seats. But,” they said, “I think we could get you another seat on an Army plane that’s going to Miami.” [laughs] In fact, the NATs plane was going to Miami too, not Cuba. So we drew straws and Boo got the Army flight. And we said goodbye and she said, “Now I’ll meet you at Miami and this pink hotel,” she gave us the name of it. The Flamingo or something. And I guess she had quite an experience, she went off over hill and dale to this Army air station and they loaded her in this bomber! [laughs] Can you imagine? And they flew 49:00 into Miami. We were in a nice airliner, you know. [laughs] And we did connect down there, we found each other and then we were able to get on Naval Air Transport into Havana. And we had a wonderful vacation. There were…the Nationale Hotel there, which is the big hotel in Havana, was being used for R & R for Army and Navy, people who were coming back from combat. So we had a lot of male playmates while we were down there! [laughs] And then we came back. That was our most exciting adventure but we did a lot of other things, bumming flights. �Interviewer: Uh, we’re going to conclude, I think with, you went to Conoco Base in Virginia, is that right, 50:00 right after that, and then you got the place in Chevy Chase, and then you met Dick, ok. And then we’re going to get to the wedding and eventually how you got out of the Navy [garbled].mMary Jean, if you could tell us about Chevy Chase, the house in Chevy Chase, and um, the dinner party that you had. Mary Jean: Well, uh, the four of us who were living together, we had rented a house in Arlington for a while, and then the people who owned the house came back, uh, so we had to get out, and then we rented a house in Chevy Chase. And a lot of 51:00 people were renting out their houses to service people and then they would live in the upstairs rooms, which is what this couple did in Chevy Chase. So we had this house in Chevy Chase, and uh, one of the girls that I lived with, Motsy, was dating an officer from the Naval Air Station at Anacostia, he was a ship service officer, and he called her one day and he said, uh, “I’ve got some butter and I’ve got some steaks,” and believe me, that’s a big deal during the war. He said, “And I have a friend. And uh, we’d like to come over and play bridge with two of you and two of you can cook the dinner.” Well, sure, come ahead, you know. So they came, and Alice and I, who were home-ecs, you see, 52:00 were the cooks, and the other two girls played bridge and the friend turned out to be Dick Brooks, who later became my husband. But that is how we met. Well, at that time, you were always meeting new people and the first thing you said to anybody you met was “where are you from?” And he said, “Grand Rapids, Michigan,” and we all broke up because both Alice and I were from Grand Rapids, Michigan, and we thought he’d been put up to it to make a joke but it turned out he really was from Grand Rapids, of all things. So they were at our house for that evening and afterwards the girls all said to me, he’s going to call you, Mary Jean, and I don’t know why they thought that but sure enough, he did, 53:00 and we had two or three dates, and I wrote my mother a letter, um, telling her I’d met a man from Grand Rapids and his name was Dick Brooks. And in the next letter comes his whole family history! [laughs] It turns out Dick’s aunt was in my mother’s bridge club! [laughs] But our paths had never crossed in Grand Rapids. Well, shortly after that, Dick called, and he said, um, “I can get a plane to fly to Grand Rapids for Sunday dinner on Sunday would you and Alice like to go along?” Well, he didn’t have to ask twice, I’ll tell you that and we all said, “yes, yes, we’d love to go.” So he got his friend, Gus Elwell, as a co-pilot and we all flew home to Grand Rapids and came into the old airport and all our families were there. 54:00 Alice’s family and my parents and Dick’s mother and Dick’s best friend and his wife. We had a wonderful day and then flew back to Washington. And I know Dick’s best friend and his wife said afterwards, “she’s the one!” [laughs] How they knew, I don’t know, but sure enough, one thing led to another and a few months later we were married. Interviewer: Let’s go into the situation, uh, at the end of the war, uh, you were still in the military. �Mary Jean: I was still in the military when we got married. Yes. Interviewer: Ok. Mary Jean: The war was over. Interviewer: Ok, so for people who don’t understand, how did you get out of the military? Mary Jean: Well, at that time, a woman could get out, uh, if she was married. In fact, she had to get out. But, at that time also, 55:00 the war was over and they were releasing people, but uh, they were released in the order of the number of months or years they were in. Uh, it just happened because I got married, I got out a little earlier than other people. But I was and Dick was too, still officially in the Navy on terminal leave, which means, you know, accrued vacation time when we were married, so we were able to go to Bermuda on our honeymoon on the Navy. We went on a Naval Air Transport plane for nothing because we were still in the Navy at that moment. Interviewer: Well, let’s sum up here, just for a moment, and, one of the questions I usually ask, uh, different people that I interview how do you feel about World War II and its effect on you as a person. 56:00 your experience during Mary Jean: Well, the skills I learned weren’t anything that could be transferred to civilian life other than I matured uh, I learned to problem solve, um, I gained a lot of self-confidence, and I had an exciting experience, it’s, it’s, um, something that uh, I wouldn’t have missed for anything and I found a husband. [laughs] Interviewer: That is wonderful. Mary Jean: Forgot the party. Interviewer: Oh…ok, go ahead. The party. Mary Jean: I forgot to tell about the party we had after I had met Dick. The four of us girls decide to have a party for our watch, all the people that worked 57:00 with us. So Dick and his friend flew to Chincoteague and got a bunch of raw oysters for the party and we girls, not being very big drinkers, didn’t know quite what to fix, so we looked in the cookbook and we found a recipe for artillery punch, in The Joy of Cooking. Well, artillery punch had a fifth of everything in it. It was absolutely lethal. [laughs] And everybody was getting just smashed and Dick and his friend were there and Dick’s friend, Gus Elwell, finally picked up the punch bowl, poured it all down the sink, and said, “this party is over!” [laughs] Interviewer: Well, I want to thank you very much, this interview is over not because we’re all loaded or anything but I would like to have just a shot of me next to Mary Jean. [Pause] Thank you so much. �Mary Jean: Oh! It was fun. 58:12 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Brooks, Mary Jean (Interview transcript and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brooks, Mary Jean Description An account of the resource Mary Jean Brooks was in the WAVES during World War II. She trained at Smith College in communications. She worked in the Naval Department building in Washington, D.C., encoding and decoding messages sent to and from naval bases and ships. She delivered some messages herself to different government offices and to the White House. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer) Collins, Carol (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Naval Reserve. Women’s Reserve Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-05-22 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BrooksM Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f0365145a3fca9572adea4a8c5cbf93b.mp4 9b701abe0a4605c8ddfebfc9238e7261 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d5b147a1fd3b303d6520594bc634aa91.pdf 0c7222c03fe04298b9bb05871f5984f8 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Ed Brooks Length: 32:06 (00:15) Background Information • Ed was born in Mt. Pleasant, Michigan in 1940 • He had 2 brothers, his father was a farmer and his mother a housewife • Ed went to Hoover elementary school and then a larger school in the city after 8th grade • He played baseball and basketball in high school and graduated in 1959 • After graduation Ed worked at a gas station for a while and then decided to enlist in the Army in 1962 (8:40) Training • Ed was sent to Fort Knox in Kentucky for basic training in October of 1962 • He trained and worked in the motor pool, repairing jeeps and trucks (10:40) Korea • Ed was sent to Korea on a troop ship and was very sick the first 3 days of the trip • In Korea, there was very hot weather and the smell was terrible • There were a few civilians that they worked with and some of them spoke English • Ed spent 1 year in Korea and thought the food was great there • He worked driving jeeps and other vehicles and was never in any combat • Ed later took another troop ship back to the US and landed in San Francisco a month later • He was discharged in San Francisco after serving for 2 years (16:45) Back in US �• One year after being discharged Ed got married back home in Mt. Pleasant • He continued working at the gas station and now has 3 children and 4 grandchildren • He recently broke his hip working and was recovering at the Masonic Home at the time of the interview � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Brooks, Richard (Interview outline and video) ca. 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brooks, Richard Description An account of the resource Richard Brooks was born in Canton Township, Michigan. His father died when he was two years old, and his mother later remarried and the family moved to Grand Rapids. He graduated from Central High School in 1933 and joined the Navy in 1940 to become a pilot. Richard went to Pensacola, Florida to conduct flight training and went on to be stationed in Naval Air Station Coco Solo in Panama. While there, he flew future President Gerald Ford across the Panama Canal so he could make it back to his ship. Later in the war, he was sent to the Pacific and stationed in the Philippines where he flew hundreds of hours of missions doing both Black-Cat operations and Air-Sea Rescue. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Navy World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BrooksR0033V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8d41f1529990ebe7a1c87f211fd32cbb.mp4 bb9ecae6e3798081217cde8c35245373 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/074b5649bbff6f2c1ebba5d06947ecf6.pdf cd7493a30b137c7d179ff0852e8fc9e1 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Sarah Brooks (14:25) (00:20) Introduction • Born in August 1926. • Her father was a baker. • Attended school in Covert, Michigan. • Had to leave school in the 10th grade to care for her ailing mother. • Moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1943. • All of her brothers and sisters had to have jobs when they were growing up. • She was married in 1959. (06:25) Volunteering • Asked by some ladies in her Auxiliary to help at the Veterans Home in Grand Rapids. • She would organize fund drives for different organizations, such as Toys for Tots and the Veterans Home. • She always complains that the politicians never appreciate the homeless veterans. • She believes that people should only volunteer and give if it’s from their heart. • Has been the chairperson for a gift shop sponsored by the American Legion. (14:25) Memories and other Volunteer Opportunities • At one time she remembers one of the men being quiet when she kept going into his room, and then she asked what was going on and he asked her when she was coming to bed with a big smile on his face. She remembers that as one of her favorite memories. • Every November, the women veterans and widows have a luncheon and a speaker. • The men go on trips to the local casinos. • The men also get to go to local events such as the theatre and musical events. • The Adopt a Vet program helps men who do not have any family connect to a special person in the community. • They found a grave labeled “Unknown Colored Soldier.” She began working on a committee and had him exhumed. He was from the Civil War, and was taken to Battle Creek, Michigan. They had men dressed in authentic Civil War Uniforms for his reburial. • Leader of the Juniors of the American Legion, which was a group for family members of the Legion. Her granddaughter became the first black president of the juniors in the state of Michigan. • She also helps in the naturalization process in Grand Rapids Michigan. She hands out flags while the new citizens are naturalized. • Received the Sojourner Truth Award. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Brooks, Sarah (Interview outline and video), 2006 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brooks, Sarah Description An account of the resource Sarah Brooks is a long-time volunteer at the Grand Rapids Home for Veterans. In her interview, she discusses her volunteer work there, and some of her experiences with the veterans. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer) Collins, Carol (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-08-21 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BrooksS Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/db5ac88da74b7d2c1a6728e6b1cc69c8.mp4 8f367e23914a052da2e84d0da6759d34 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3c00452deb47b0df4d1adf923e3ae556.pdf 7c1dcae3eec02bae1d8c23a22641943d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Vietnam Interviewee’s Name: Carleton Brown Length of Interview: 1:13:54 Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Hokulani Buhlman Interviewer: We’re talking today with Carleton Brown of Grand Rapids, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay Carl, start us off with some background and to begin with: where and when were you born? I was born in New Haven, Connecticut. My dad was in the Navy, he was in medical school at Yale, and so I started out being in the Navy when I was born actually. (0:57) Interviewer: And what year were you born? 1944. Interviewer: M’kay. October 28th, 1944. Interviewer: Alright. Now, did your father have a career in the Navy? He did. He went to medical school and he became a flight surgeon, and I think he had at least 30 years in before he retired. Interviewer: Okay. So that means that as a Navy kid, or a Navy brat, you would have moved around a lot? Yup, Navy brat. We moved around a lot—I went to 13 schools before I graduated from highschool. �Interviewer: Alright, and tell me a little bit about your high school education: where did you go to high school and where did you graduate from? 9th grade was in Beaufort, South Carolina; 10th grade they sent me to St. Peter’s Episcopal school for boys in Peekskill, New York. 135 spoiled brats and me (Carleton laughs) that was a lot of fun; and then 11th grade was at Terry Parker Highschool in Arlington near Jacksonville, Florida; And then Manchester Highschool Central in Manchester, New Hampshire is where I graduated from high school. (2:01) Interviewer: Okay, now were all of these switches based on your father moving around or were there other reasons for you to go to the (Interviewer is cut off.) A large part of it, plus getting a better, maybe—the school system in Jacksonville wasn’t very good, it was facing disaccreditation so they sent me to New Hampshire. To graduate from a school in New Hampshire. Interviewer: Okay. And why New Hampshire? Well my grandparents lived in Manchester, New Hampshire and I had gone to school in the first grade in Manchester, New Hampshire. My dad was stationed in Turkey and my mother was homeschooling me, and that wasn’t really working out in the first grade, so they put me on a plane and I flew to Manchester, New Hampshire and started first grade at Pearl Street Elementary School in Manchester. Interviewer: Alright, now you also had a stint in San Diego when you were a kid, right? I never really lived in San Diego. We lived in Hawaii for a while. Interviewer: Hawaii, that was my next guess. My dad was stationed at Hickam, and I met my wife—we were kids—at the housing area just north of Hickam. I went to her ninth birthday party and kinda kept track of her through my mom and her mom. Oddly enough her name was Brown then, before we were married, so she just continued on with the same name Brown. She often complains she was looking for a more interesting last name, but got stuck with brown again. Interviewer: At least people can spell it! That’s right! I always say when they ask me what my last name is I say: Brown, like the color. �Interviewer: Alright, okay, so you wind up graduating from highschool in Manchester, New Hampshire in what year? That would have been in 1963 I believe. ‘62 or ‘63. Hm. Interviewer: And from there where did you go to college? I went to the University of Florida. Interviewer: And how did you wind up going there? Well, I wanted to go to a New England school but I didn’t really have the education that would allow me to do that, so I did well on the SATs and applied to the University of Florida where I had some friends going to school and they took me. Interviewer: Okay, and when you got to Florida what did you major in? Well the first couple years you’re kind of, like, lookin’ for a major. I tried the pre-med route and so forth and so on, but I wound up in Journalism and Communications as my undergraduate degree. (4:48) Interviewer: Alright. And then while you’re in school, by the time you’re getting close to graduating the draft is ramping up and Vietnam is starting. I was safe. I was a 2S. No fears of the draft. Interviewer: And 2S, what does that stand for? It means you have a deferment as a student. Interviewer: You have a student deferment? Okay, alright. How, then, did you wind up in the service? On my way back to the fraternity house I stopped at a—they had a booth where they were looking for pilots, Navy pilots. I went up to the guys there and said I’d be interested in being a pilot in the Navy, and I have really thick glasses so obviously that wasn’t gonna work out, and he told me “Well, I don’t think you’re gonna be a pilot, but you can go to the Student Union and take a test.” So I took a test at the Student Union and then I kinda forgot about it. A couple �weeks later I was on my way back to the fraternity house and when I walked in somebody said “Hey Brown, you’re going to Vietnam! Grab your rifle and get on the bus!” and I said “Wait a minute, what’s going on?” and they had opened my letter and put it on the bulletin board. That I was heading off to war. So I was a bit concerned about that, but you know I had to go and have a physical and all of that. Interviewer: Now were you at that point in your fourth year of college? Yeah about into the fourth year. Well into the fourth year. Interviewer: Because a student deferment normally lasts for four years. So it may be that the draft board was all ready to get you. Yeah, I changed majors a few times. I think I was actually a student at the University of Florida for almost 5 ½ years. Interviewer: That would do it. Once you get (cuts off) That kind of pushed the edge there. So, anyway I found out I did well on that test I had taken and the guy said that the recruiters, since I had taken the test before I got the letter, if I wanted to I could enlist in the Navy and perhaps go to OCS. So that’s the route I took. Interviewer: Okay, that’s Officer Candidate School. You have to remember our audience doesn’t necessarily know all the acronyms. Sorry about that. Interviewer: It’s okay. So, was there a Navy recruiter on campus, or what do you do? I think I made a phone call and set up a meeting to go talk to him. And he knew that I had gotten a score on the test that allowed me to, perhaps, go that route for enlistment instead of going to Vietnam with a draft notice. (7:32) Interviewer: Okay, and does the timing of the test matter, when you took it? Yeah. I had to have taken the test before I got my draft notice. Interviewer: What year was this, when this first happened? �It was in 1966. Interviewer: So in ‘66 you have a lot of people who get draft notices and expect to go into the Army or something, and they’ll try to get into the Navy or the Airforce, so you had a lot of people trying to enlist at that point. I’m sure. Interviewer: So that would probably affect why they would pay attention to that kind of thing. That’s right. Interviewer: But anyway: you had done it right, and so… I was fortunate. Interviewer: Did they let you finish your degree first? Yup, I got to finish my studies and get my degree and then in April of that next year I went to Officer Candidate School in Newport, Rhode Island. Interviewer: Now, were you married or engaged yet, or does that come later in the story? Not married at that point. Not really thinking about it very much. Went to OCS, took about four months, and then I went to communications school for a couple of months. And then got my little MGB and headed for California. (8:42) Interviewer: Well back up a little bit, talk about OCS. What did that actually consist of? Well, OCS was very interesting. There were 11 of us in our section and we got to be pretty good buddies. You learned how to eat the Navy way, which is really fast. (Carleton laughs.) As much as you can get in your mouth at a time and then off you move. The first month or two is move move move, they really push you along and go through the stuff, go to classes, march. A lot of marching. I was very interested in learning more about the Navy—I had kind of been in the Navy all my life with my dad and different bases, and he taught me a lot of very interesting things about how to do well in the Navy. I think part of the main one was he taught me that Chiefs were in charge of the Navy, and if you wanted to get along or do well in the Navy you had to remember that the Chiefs were in charge. �Interviewer: The Chiefs being Chief Petty Officers. Chief Petty Officers. Interviewer: The noncommissioned officers. That’s right. And I always kept that in my mind and it served me well. Interviewer: How much spit and polish was there in the OCS? There was a lot of spit and polish. You had to keep your boonies really well shined, I was the only one in our group who knew how to spit-shine a boonie, so I had to teach the other guys how to. Interviewer: What is a boonie? Boonies are your boots. They’re not real high boots, but they become your best friends. (Laughs) Interviewer: Right. And your peacoat. You had to have a nice warm peacoat. (10:30) Interviewer: So you knew how to spit shine and… That’s right. I had to show them how it takes a little bit of time and patience to get that shine that when you look at it, it looks like a mirror finish. Interviewer: And then, what do the classes consist of? Well, we had different classes in, like, tactics and seamanship. Navigation. A lot of the different things that you would run into when you got aboard a ship. There were yard patrol craft that we went out and sailed around on—I guess that’s Narragansett Bay? And learned some things about Navy procedures and communications and that was, it was a really full four months of that kind of activity. Interviewer: Now one thing you mentioned before we started the session was that your OCS class was kind of unusually small. �Right. Interviewer: And so, how does that affect the dynamic of those four months? If you’re this small and other classes are larger? Well, there’s a lot of things that have to get done in terms of, like, cleaning up things and putting things in different places, and so the class ahead of you, when they come in, they kinda like, use you to do all of that. And the class ahead of us was over a hundred men and we were only 11 so we got worn pretty thin. But by the time we graduated the class behind us was quite large so we had a lot of resources and assets, and even though it's only a month it seems like a long time. Interviewer: Okay, so when did you finish the OCS part? That would have been in July of ‘67. Interviewer: And then the next step was? Communications school. Interviewer: Okay was that in Newport or somewhere else? That was in Newport. Interviewer: Okay. So it was just a hop-skip-and a jump from our OCS spaces there. Interviewer: What are you actually being taught in Communications school? Well they teach us some of the basics about naval communications including Cryptography and things like that. They call it a Romeo-8 which has little discs and spins so you can decrypt and encrypt messages and those kinds of things. Plus basic stuff like semaphore and [in the Navy] when you talk with radio-telephone procedures, how to use proper radio-telephone procedure techniques. Spelling the Alpha Bravo Charlie letters and things like that. (13:20) Interviewer: Now was communications going to be your specialization, or? Looked like it, yup, at that point. �Interviewer: And then how long did that school last? It was a couple of months. Interviewer: Now when you’re in that school, or in OCS for that matter, do you get much of a chance to go off base or do you just stay on the base the whole time? Yeah, you can get off base. You get some… OCS, of course, after you’re in for a little while, maybe about three weeks to a month then you can get off on the weekends, and at comms school it was just during the day. There was a flag football team and things like that. Interviewer: And would you go into Newport? Mmhm. Washington Square. Interviewer: And how did the people in the community treat the Navy people? Um. You know, I didn’t interface with a lot of civilians in the community but it didn’t seem like there was any problem with that. I think it’s likely that the OCS and all the Navy stuff is probably a pretty good industry for that community. (14:25) Interviewer: So there weren’t signs on the lawn saying “No sailors allowed” or anything. No, no. Interviewer: Not like Norfolk or someplace like that. No, I didn’t see any signs against the military. Interviewer: Okay, I was curious there. Now would you go into Boston or would you stay around Newport? I went into Boston a few times, I had friends into New Hampshire, so we got up into New Hampshire. Sometimes my OCS buddies would go with me or we’d go to maybe University Connecticut for a football game or up into Manchester and meet up with my grandparents, so there was some time like that. Interviewer: And when you finished Communications school what was the next step from there? �Then I got orders to an aircraft carrier in California and I had a little bit of time off, spent some time with my parents in Florida, and then drove to California. Interviewer: Okay. Now, had you received your Commission yet or does that [happen] kinda after you get out to California? You get your Commission after OCS and before comms school, so I was a red-hot ensign by then. Interviewer: So now you’re at [the] Yorktown aircraft carrier. Right. Interviewer: So, how are you treated when you get there and what happens when you arrive at the ship? Well, I found out where to go and they told me where to put my stuff. They weren’t paying a lot of attention to me at that point because they were getting ready for an extended tour to Vietnam, and so everybody was kind of preparing for that. We did have some conferences we had to go to and things to get ready for the journey, and one of the things they had to do was talk about radiotelephone procedures, and since I had just graduated from Communications school they said “Okay, well, you’re in charge. We want you to conduct the radio-telephone procedures.” So I had to try and teach these guys that knew a whole lot more than me about radio-telephone procedures what the proper techniques were, like for instance you don’t say Roger-Wilco, over and out---that’s not right. But that’s what everybody says. Things like that, we did that in San Diego and everybody was pretty happy with knowing what the rules were but that doesn’t necessarily mean you’re gonna use them. (16:50) Interviewer: So how long did you spend in port before you went out? Well I got there in real early December 1967 and I needed to get my clothes cleaned and get going, so I called my mother and she gave me her friend’s number in Newport Beach that I had known when I was a child, when I was a kid. So I called her and she said “come on down” and I went down there, and after she fed me a couple times and cleaned my clothes I said, “Didn’t you have a daughter about my age?” and so she gave me Betsy’s address, my wife-to-be, and I drove up to Westwood, LA and knocked on her apartment door and her roommate Judy answered. And I said “Well, Judy, is Betsy here?” and Judy said, “No, there’s no Betsy here.” and she turned and said “Betty, do you know a Betsy?” I said oh wait, maybe it’s Betty I’m looking for. So �Betty came and uh, unfortunately Betty—or Betsy—had a date that night but I took Judy out and learned a bit about her. And I made a date with Betsy for the following weekend so that was in about the middle of December and anyway we had a strong relationship and I proposed to her. Christmas Eve I asked her father for his daughter’s hand in marriage and then the ship left before New Years for 8 months. Interviewer: Okay So that was a fast month, I can’t believe it all happened in one month. Interviewer: Well, you’re about the age where sometimes things can move that fast. That’s right, that’s right. Interviewer: And it seems to have worked because she’s listening in from the booth right now, so. Okay, now when you ship out do you go straight across the Pacific or did you put in any ports along the way? (19:14) Well we had an interesting time. When we went out—the ship goes down to San Diego and the aircraft come aboard and then we go out—it just turns out we were following the Enterprise across, and it turns out there was a Soviet attack submarine that was shadowing the Enterprise and we were allowed to use our Anti-submarine warfare technology, that was pretty sophisticated at the time, to track that submarine that was watching the Enterprise. So the aircraft would go out and drop sonobuoys in patterns and we would try to locate the submarine, sometimes we could and sometimes we couldn’t, but it was the first time they let us overtly prosecute to try and find that submarine. And the Enterprise went into pearl before we did, and then we were in pearl for awhile, and then she left before we did and we did some more of that on the way out to Japan. It was pretty exciting cause the whole progress of all of that is done in what they call the Flag Operation Center which is right next to the CIC, Combat Information Center. Combat is dark but the Flag Operation Center is lit so pilots come through and they had these big, big boards that they move back and forth with all the little planes and everything. You can move them around to try and give the pilots some idea where they should go to find the submarine and track it down. So it was really very interesting for me as my first real experience in the Navy doing anything like that, and it was quite an adventure. And then when we got on our way to Japan, the North Koreans took the Pueblo, then we got diverted up into the sea of Japan and we were part of the operation that was watching Wonson Harbor and deciding what to do about the fact that Pueblo had been captured. My boss was a communications guy and he set up these special circuits and we got messages about that, like contingency plans? and I pulled those, they were top-secret plans that had to have a disclosure �sheet on top. After you looked at them you had to sign the disclosure sheet saying that you had access to these things. So they came in and I put them on the board and took them to the Chief of Staff and he asked me “Well, what are those messages?” and I said “Well, they’re contingency plans” and he said “Well, I don’t wanna read ‘em go show them to the Admiral.” so I took them to the Admiral and I said “These are the contingency plans, Chief of Staff said I should bring them to you.” and he said “Well, what is it?” and I said “Well, it’s what we’re gonna do in case we’re gonna do something with the Pueblo.” and he said “Well I don’t wanna read that stuff, go take it to somebody else.” So I went around trying to get somebody else to read these contingency plans which included some things maybe the Yorktown would be doing, in that contingency, and nobody would read it! So I put it in a safe and locked it away and hoped that nothing would ever happen where we would need those things. And it was kind of stressful because I was the only guy that read those things, and you know, anything could happen. (22:53) Interviewer: But as it was that situation did get defused, so we didn’t invade North Korea or anything like that. That’s right, but I think they made the Pueblo into a museum and maybe if we get a little more peaceful with North Korea we’ll be able to check out that museum someday. Interviewer: Mhm. Okay, alright, so you go to Japan. Now do you go on shore in Japan or do you just stay on the ship? Yup. We went to Yokosuka and did some shore leave there, a little bit of time. And then the Yorktown had a problem with its prop and they took it down to Sasebo and put it in drydock and changed the prop out, so we got to see Sasebo which is an interesting town, southern Japan, very different from Tokyo that’s for sure. Interviewer: How did the Japanese people seem to view the American sailors? Pretty positively. We had good liberty in Japan, everybody was pretty happy with Americans. Interviewer: You didn’t have too many seamen acting up in the bars or anything like that? Not too much. No. Most of that was in the Philippines I guess. Interviewer: Yeah that’s a different world. So, from Japan now, do you head to the coast of Vietnam or what comes next? Right, we went to the Philippines, Olongapo, and then over to Yankee station. (24:23) �Interviewer: Okay, Yankee Station. Explain what Yankee Station was. The Yankee Station was really just kind of an area near Hanoi and Haiphong where a lot of the action was taking place in terms of US planes bombing Haiphong and Hanoi, and that was what the serious war was. Interviewer: And so now this is 1968, now that this is happening. And this is the period of—the Tet Offensive started January 30th, and intense levels of fighting go on for about a year after that, so there’s a lot of action going on both in South Vietnam and in bombing raids up north. So was the Yankee Station area sort of in international waters? I believe it was. There was always the threat of submarines there, although it's not very deep we’re still worried about the possibility of that coming into play, so our job on Yorktown was to keep track of all the surface combatants and to be sure to be ready to react to any kind of submarine activity that might have come in, but I don’t think there ever was, so my knowledge, any submarine activity. Interviewer: Now would planes from Yorktown go and hit targets on the mainland? No, they mainly monitored surface combatants and checked for submarines. They were always doing anti-submarine. And they had equipment on the Yorktown, sonar equipment and that kind of equipment plus we delivered the mail. It was probably the main good thing we did was keep the mail going, so the mail came into the Yorktown and then planes, carriers—CODs, we called them CODs. I don’t remember what that stands for but they would deliver the mail out to others and there were underway replenishments, and destroyers would come alongside and things would be transferred and replenished. Interviewer: So you’re doing what is essentially—you have screening duties or whatever, escort duties and other carriers are the ones that have the strike forces. That’s right. Interviewer: But then you fill these other kinds of jobs and duties because you’ve got a big ship that can hold a lot of stuff, planes can land there and take off. That’s right. The Yorktown was a CVS, not a CVA, so that little distinction put her into more of a anti-submarine role. Interviewer: Okay. (27:01) �I was aboard the Yorktown when she had her 25th birthday. They took a picture of the men out on the deck, 25 years, and Hilo went around and took pictures. It was a big day for the Yorktown which saw service in World War Two. Interviewer: Because it was a replacement for the original one that was lost at Midway. Yeah. Interviewer: So what was daily life like for you on the Yorktown? It was fairly routine. I had a room with two other guys and showers were always a little bit tough. If you took more than a 10 second shower, they always had a problem getting enough fresh water. The food was pretty good, we used to say about the Yorktown that she wasn’t a looker but she was a feeder, so we got pretty good grub on the Yorktown. I never complained and I never got seasick, so that was good. Interviewer: And then your duty station? Was in the Flag Operation Center, and they had a watch section, you had like 4 hours of watch and then they had a routine and different people would come in and go off and you’d have to show them what was going on and bring them up to date, then the next person, the next crew would come in. I stood watch—there were two officers that stood watch in the Flag Operation Center. Interviewer: And how many enlisted did you have with you? Probably a good 50 enlisted men, connected with the staff and its operation. Interviewer: Alright, [and then] you talked before about how the Chiefs run the show, how did you apply that knowledge when you went into your assignment there? Well, as an ensign and a JG, not so much. But I still paid attention because it’s pretty obvious if you watch what’s going on that Chiefs are running things in the Navy. Interviewer: Because, I guess, at that point you’re not giving orders. Normally there would be someone superior to you on duty with you and so you just have particular jobs and things that you do. That’s right. �(29:27) Interviewer: Now… [about] how long did you spend off the coast of Vietnam? Well, several weeks from time to time, and then we would go back to the Philippeans. We did take a tour [where we] got around to Singapore once and that was an interesting trip. Got off the ship enough to get into looking at Malaysia a bit. That was an interesting country and people were happy to see us. We went to a big fancy hotel there in Singapore, can’t remember the name of it, but anyway we did see some sights there. And then back on line. Interviewer: Now, when you would go into a port, did officers take turns with shore patrol or was that all enlisted men? Pretty much enlisted men did shore patrol. Interviewer: So that wasn’t part of what you had to do, look for them? No. Interviewer: Now aside from the Pueblo incident, were there any other things that happened that kind of stood out in your experience there, took you out of the routine? On that tour, not really. The following tour on the Kearsarge was really much the same, still the same kind of operations: anti submarine warfare operations. But then we got into a SEATO exercise, which included ships from the Philippines and Japan and a lot of other countries. Interviewer: So that's the Southeast Asia Treaty Organization. Southeast Asia Treaty Organization. In the south China sea. And it was during that exercise that I was on duty, I was on midwatch. It’s about 1:30 in the morning and one of our Destroyers, the Destroyer that went across with us, part of our carrier group, was in this exercise with the Melbourne which was an Australian aircraft carrier. During the night they went into plane operations, which was the normal thing, and Frankie Evans was the Destroyer working with the Melbourne. Frankie Evans was a forward of the Melbourne in a screen position and the Melbourne asked her to take plane-guard duty, which was a very normal thing, because when you’re conducting aircraft operations you wanna have a Destroyer close behind you in case a plane goes in the water because the Destroyer can get to that plane a lot faster than the Carrier could possibly turn around and get to them. So taking plane guard is a normal safety precaution but the skipper, Evans, didn’t handle the ship properly and when he came around the Melbourne cut it in two. And 65 guys on the bow of that ship went down in about 5 minutes. And it’s pretty �deep there, it’s the Marianas Trench, so it was a real bad accident. And I was in the Flag Operations Center and I heard somebody in CIC laughing and I thought “Well what’s going on?” and I opened the curtain and the guy pulled the message off the teletype and says “Look, Mr. Brown, it says here the Evans is in two parts.” I said “What could that mean?” he says “I don’t know!” Well, it turned out there had been a collision at sea and in about five minutes the Flag Operations Center was full of officers. Really, that was a bad, bad event and I remember the next day I was on watch for about 7 ½ hours before I got out. When I got out I went out on the flight deck and the Evans was about, hmm, 1000 yards off and you could see where the front had been cut off. It looked just like somebody took a pair of scissors and cut that ship in half. (34:02) Interviewer: But the main part—the ship was still afloat otherwise? The stern was still afloat. Interviewer: So is it designed so that it could do that thing or? I guess they had pretty-good, water-tight integrity. They kept the hatches locked and she stayed afloat, the stern half. There were some strange stories: one seaman who was asleep in the superstructure landed on the deck of the Melbourne when the accident occured, he woke up and he had no idea where he was. The crew, [the men] on the Melbourne did a remarkable job rescuing people in the water and reacting right away to save as many people as they could. Interviewer: So some people on the bow were in that section that ended up in the water rather than going down with a piece of the ship. Right. Interviewer: That’s jumped a little bit ahead in your story here, so we’ll go back, so you do your Yankee station patrol with the Yorktown and then does the Yorktown after a certain number of months go all the way back to the States or? Back to San Diego, back to Long Beach, we got back to Long Beach in July and in August I had a wedding with my wife, Betsy. August 10th, then we went on a little honeymoon, so that was a long 8-month engagement but most of that was when I was on a ship. Interviewer: You were on a ship, out of trouble anyway. Well, we wrote to each other every day. �Interviewer: So being on the mail ship was a good thing. A blessing, right. (35:47) Interviewer: So, now normally when a ship comes back to port would you have an extended period back in the states before going out again? Yeah. If you’re on the ship’s crew it would probably be a couple years before your ship would be deployed back to Vietnam or somewhere else on an extended timeframe, but I was on this Admiral staff and you get about 4 months and they put you on a different ship, this time the Kearsarge, CVS 33, and then back to Vietnam. Back to deployment. Interviewer: Now were you assigned to the Admiral staff after you got back on the Yorktown or were you already attached to that Admiral? Same Admiral staff, just moves from one ship. They move their flag from one ship to another. Interviewer: And can you name which Admiral that was? On the Yorktown, Admiral Weymouth was our Admiral. He was a very distinguished Admiral, fighter pilot in World War II I guess and then Admiral Jerome H. King took over as Commander ASW Group-1 when we were on the Kearsarge. Interviewer: So basically you’re with the unit, but on the Admiral’s staff. Essentially the Admiral switches but the staff stays the same. That’s right. Interviewer: Okay. And some other staff members, but for the most part we stayed the same. Interviewer: Okay. Now at this point had you been promoted yet, are you of Lieutenant Junior grade? I made Lieutenant Junior grade. You had to be an ensign for a year at that point before you got promoted to JG—Junior Grade. Interviewer: And did you get that promotion before you left? �Yes. (37:37) Interviewer: Cause you’ve got a picture of your wife helping pin the bars on. That’s right. Interviewer: Okay, now with the Kearsarge was it essentially a repeat of the same kind of thing you were doing on the Yorktown? Very similar, yes. Interviewer: And aside from that incident with the Evans, what other things kind of stand out for you from that tour? You know nothing really stood out. It was a lot of watch standing and making sure everybody knew what was going on in terms of what ships were where, and the pilots would come through and we would show them the best scenarios we could about what was going on in the surface activity, and if there [was] any submarine activity. Interviewer: And now, did the Soviets or the Chinese or anybody else shadow you at all or have their own boats out there, I mean there were Soviet trawlers and things that we hear about. I remember we got overflown by bears at one point, that was kind of exciting. Because when they—when those Russian bombers come by—-they can get really close. You can even see—I have this imagination that I could see people on those planes. I mean, it’s an amazing thing that they would come by that close and I think they’re kinda trying to scare you a little bit. Interviewer: So aircraft, but not necessarily any other vessels. No, no, I don’t recall any collisions at sea or anything like that. Sometimes when you’re going through the harbors you have to be careful of the junks cause there’s a lot of maneuvering you have to do to get around smaller boats and ships, in and out of harbors, that’s about it. Interviewer: Now with these carriers, did you ever put into Cam Ranh Bay or a Vietnamese port? Or always other places? Nope, nope, carriers didn’t go in there. �Interviewer: And then you said you got to Singapore, did you go to Hong Kong or Taiwan or anywhere? Yup, we went to Hong Kong. We took a trip to Hong Kong and that was very interesting. We got all the way up to where red China started, like a little gate there. (40:10) Interviewer: Some people tell stories about going into the harbor at Hong Kong and having a bunch of women coming out and painting their ship. Now was that for smaller boats? Probably not an aircraft carrier. I guess so? I guess so. Interviewer: But you didn’t see anything like that that you recall. No, I don’t recall. It did seem like there was some commerce going on though between boats in the harbor and some of the ships. Probably groceries and vegetables. It was always nice to get some fresh vegetables. Interviewer: Right. Now, when you go into a port like that do you get any information in terms of what you should do and don’t do, or any miscellaneous warnings? Oh yeah, there’s a list of… what do they call it… I can’t remember what they call it, but a list of places that they don’t recommend you visit which are usually the best places. You kinda look forward to getting that list cause you can find out where the action is. (Laughs) Interviewer: Well, I mean there’s the kinds of places where you can get yourself into a lot of trouble, as opposed to the kinds of places that are nice and expensive and fancy and they don’t want a bunch of drunken Americans running around. Right. Interviewer: So would your list include both kinds of things or what did they emphasize? They emphasized the first where “these are dangerous spots”, not recommended. Interviewer: You also [talked] about going to the Philippines, how was going to the Philippines different from going to Hong Kong or Singapore? �Well, the Philippines of course, they had a really good Navy exchange. It was the place to go to buy a tape recorder, a Sony tape recorder. It’s not as clean a place as Hong Kong, so you have to be a little careful about what you get involved in, where you go. Interviewer: Yeah, I’ve had interesting stories from enlisted men about going. Olongapo was an interesting place. There’s a bridge from between the brace and you get into Olongapo, there’s a bridge and there are boats in the water and sometimes there’s attractive young ladies on the boats and people would like to throw money in the water and they would dive down in to get the money. It was all kind of a circus thing. Interviewer: So how long was the tour on the Kearsarge? Well it would have been another 8-month tour but I requested some other duty, and I got that extra duty. I felt like maybe I could see some of the rest of the world rather than, it looked like to me, I would be on the Kearsarge for another 8 months and then the staff would move to another carrier and we’d go back. So my three years in the Navy would include three tours to Vietnam, and that seemed like a bit much to me. So I thought, one of the things I was responsible for was the registered documents, it’s called an RPS Custodian. So I’d have to go with a bag and get new key lists and things, and then turn in the old key lists, and do all of that for the registered publications which were classified, sensitive information, so I was at the center once and I asked him “Where are all the registered publication places?” and he said “Well, they’re all over the world! They’re in Scotland, Germany, Spain.” I said, “Wow, that sounds like a pretty interesting thing. I'd like to get involved in that.” maybe see some of the rest of the world. And so I went back and I looked up the instructions and I thought maybe I’d just put in for a tour of duty with the security group, because the naval security group are the ones that handle all of that. Then I thought what do I have to offer the security group? I really don’t have anything. Maybe if I spoke Russian, that would be something that they need, based on my reading. So I put in for a Russian language school, and sure enough I got orders to Russian Language School and then a tour of duty with the security group, which is odd because usually things don’t go the way you plan them. So my wife and I went to the Presidio of Monterey, and the Presidio is an army language school. We took Russian for a year and she did better than I did. She was a very good student, but we would have these sessions where you would do a conversation in Russian and we would practice doing them with each other, so we got pretty good at Russian. Interviewer: So how did she wind up in the Russian language school? Well if they had room you could ask for your wife to go, and there was enough room for her to go. �Interviewer: Okay. Now did she—because, did you have some kind of security clearance for yourself, for the duty you had, or was that required? Yes. Interviewer: And was she required to have clearance of some kind? Nope, she wasn’t. She wasn’t. Fortunately she didn’t have to have a security clearance to learn Russian, so. (46:06) Interviewer: Okay, so she’s there. So she’s helping you along with the Russian, now did they just use immersion or how did they teach you? It’s immersion. They had wonderful instructors; many of these instructors were older, had gotten out of Russian before the revolution, so they’re pretty old. But very, very American people, very pro-american and they’re interesting to have as instructors. They had all kinds of interesting stories to tell about living in Russia with the czar before communism, so that was a very interesting experience and part of learning Russian, they take you through Russian history, which has gotta be one of the toughest things to try and learn. Especially if you’re learning it in Russian, it’s kind of an ordeal because America has been around for what? 300 years? And Russian history goes for thousands of years, it’s just a crazy thing. Interviewer: Yeah. I did a few classes in grad school. Did you? Interviewer: Yeah, very interesting stuff. Very interesting stuff. Interviewer: So how long was language [school], you said a year? A year. Interviewer: And how much time do you have left in your enlistment at this point? Well, when you take these schools you get more time, you have to commit to more time. Interviewer: So you would have been in four years but now it's gonna be 5 and something? �Yes. Interviewer: So you spend a year there and then, do you live on the base, do they have facilities for you? Fort Ord in California, yup. Their facilities. (47:57) Interviewer: And so, what were those like? They were pretty nice. It was a little… like a duplex. And it was furnished with army furniture and it was comfortable enough, and one of the things you had to do was keep everything very clean. They liked it to be very clean—it was clean when you got it, by golly it had to be really clean when you left. Interviewer: Right. Now, you were able to afford to have your wife be in school rather than working in some place? Yeah, the expenses weren’t great at that point, because you got your housing provided and we were fortunate in that respect. Interviewer: So after you complete your year of language school, what assignment do you get? Well, I put in for Scotland. Edzell, Scotland. And we had a couple there in Edzell that were our sponsors, and we wrote letters back and forth and we were all excited about moving to Scotland, but then two weeks before we were set to go my orders changed and they decided to send us to Bremerhaven, Germany instead. We were really disappointed, you know? I thought Scotland was gonna be a lot of fun. So we went to Bremerhaven, Germany and that was nice, we had a nice place. My son was born just before we went to Germany and then while we were in Germany my wife decided to have twins, so we had three young children there and Bremerhaven was a good place to have your kids. And I was doing watches, 8 hour watches; after we were there for about 6 months I thought it’d be nice to go visit the people that we were gonna live with over in Scotland, so we wrote to them and they said come on over, so we put the car on the ferry and went to Harlech and drove up to Edzell, Scotland and met them and it was… it was pretty remote. It was really remote. And drove back to Germany and I think we were both pretty thankful that we got sent to Bremerhaven instead. Interviewer: Because Bremerhaven is a good-sized port city and you’re close to Hamburg. �Close to Hamburg and Bremen. We went to Bremen a few times. Get on the train and go to Bremen. And I was standing watches—we had about six -hour watches in about 4 and ½ days, so you did your watches and then you got like 3 ½ days off, so Betsy would have got a babysitter and we’d load up the car and I’d meet her at the end of the watch and we’d drive to Amsterdam or Vienna, make different trips out of that. We didn’t do that every time, but every once and awhile. Stockholm and Sweden. So we had like three days off and I’m back and then I’m back to work. So we saw a little bit of Europe doing that. Interviewer: Now when you would travel around Europe, would people take a look at you and know that you were American military, or that you were…? Yeah… Yeah, pretty much. I always remember I stopped in a little cafeteria in Cologne once and I sat at a table by myself, but it was fairly crowded and pretty soon there were a bunch of people at the table. And I was listening to them talk, and I said a couple of things, and then somebody said something to me and in German and I said to him “Please don’t speak so quickly, I’m an American and my German isn’t that good.” and they all went [wide-eyed] cause they didn’t know there was an American sitting at the table. So I felt pretty good about that, that I could hide in there with them. (52:37) Interviewer: And what time frame are we talking about, when were you in Bremerhaven? Uh [1970 to 1972]. Interviewer: Now, did any sort of echoes of the American anti-war movement make it over to Germany that you ever observed? Not that I observed personally. They had some, what was it, the Red Army Faction? Interviewer: Red Brigades. Yeah, Red Army Faction at some point, I think the Red Brigades is Italy, but yeah. Down in Frankfurt and stuff, and so when you went through checkpoints or whatever they took things and checked under your car to make sure there weren’t any bombs tied to the bottom of your car and stuff like that. It was some anxious times with that business. Interviewer: Now, did you have any kind of unusual alerts or situations, or things that had happened while you were in Bremerhaven that kind of broke up the routine? �No, not really. When I was on watch at one point we used to listen to all these conversations all over the world, that’s what the base in Bremerhaven did. We got communications that Sri Lanka had been—there was a revolution or something, they took over. Big government change, so the guy in charge of that communications brought me a message form that was standard policy when there was an unwarranted regime change like that. Flash message and it all looked good to me, and I signed it off and they sent it. That Flash message goes to the President of the United States, [so it’s] a tense moment, you know? And so it went off and then the next day I got called back in and the Skipper of the base—Skipper the security group—called me in and he said “You know, before you send a message to the President, you gotta give me a call.” There wasn’t any protocol to do that so I hadn’t, but you know, it was something to consider. Interviewer: So, I guess describe then a little bit more what your functions are, or what’s happening at that base. Well, the main thing they did there was—ya know, I don’t know how much of this is classified anymore. Seems like it was so long ago that it shouldn’t be classified, but we were listening to Russian communications and trying to figure out what was going on. When they got certain kinds of communications of a routine nature they could predict when the Russians were gonna launch an ICBM, so they started paying a lot of attention to all kinds of communication in order to be able to predict what was going on. Interviewer: So, I guess, how would you wind up being the one to send the communication about Sri Lanka to Washington? You’d think there might be a different route that would send that. Well, you know, I guess it’s if you get the communications and you’re supposed to do something with it, that’s what you do but I was the Operations Watch Officer, so there were like a hundred and forty men on watch at any one time and there were morse code operations, there were teletype operations, lots of different communications operations going on all the time, 24-hours a day. So every once and awhile something would happen. (56:33) Interviewer: Anything else you wanna bring in about the time in Bremerhaven beyond that? No. We managed—my section, alpha section—managed to beat the day-workers and win the Captain’s Cup Volleyball Championship and that was a significant achievement because the dayworkers always won that thing. �Interviewer: Now when you finish the tour in Bremerhaven, do you still have time left on your enlistment? No, I was done at that point. Had served my 5 years and 3 months, and I think I was… I don’t know the term for it, but I think I was riffed. Which means they didn’t need me anymore. Interviewer: So what rank were you at the time? A lieutenant. Interviewer: And so at that point, actually in the draw-down of the size of the armed forces as Vietnam was winding down. Yeah, so a lot of Army officers lost their rank and so they’re doing that in the Navy to a certain degree. Now could you have stayed in the Navy at a lower rank, or were you just—-? No. No, not really. I might have been able to petition for another job or something, but you know I’d have to figure that out. I was kind of ready to move on to something else, so I thought at that point that going back to school would be a good thing. Interviewer: Now did you opt to stay in the Reserves, or did you have a Reserve obligation anyway? No, no I opted to stay in the Reserves. Went back to school and went to the Reserves Center and found a job at the Reserves Center. Interviewer: Now where did you go to school next, then? I went back to the University of Florida, and I got my Masters in International Management and Comparative Government. That took about a year and then during that time I learned a few things about the best way to go with a degree, so I thought “You know, maybe I need something a little more productive” in terms of what you’re gonna work for and what I wanted to do. So I moved to Phoenix, went to Thunderbird, it’s an international business school. You [can have] a degree in International Management to International Economics, and I did some German there too. And that took another year in Phoenix. Then I was at the Reserve Center there too doing my two days a month. (59:30) Interviewer: Now was the government paying for your education at this point? I was on the… yes. �Interviewer: Sort of the officer’s version of the GI Bill? Well I don’t think there’s a version. It was the GI Bill. Yup. I was taking advantage of my GI Bill opportunity. Interviewer: Okay, and you had little kids at home, so was your wife just taking care of them at that point, or did she get a job somewhere? She managed to go to class and do some classes at Thunderbird as well. I don’t think—She didn’t get a degree there but… yeah, those kids were a lot of fun. Interviewer: Now having gone and gotten that degree, what did you do with it? Well, I looked for a job and I wound up at Baxter Traven0l in Chicago, so we moved to Chicago and I was part of the Baxter Travenol team there. Interviewer: And what kind of company was that? Medical products. They made kidney dialyzers, [that] was like the main thing, and so I got involved in planning the production of kidney dialyzers all over the world and the amount of kidney dialyzers we would make in the United States and send to different countries like Israel and Japan, and coordinating that activity. It was a very interesting job. (1:01:00) Interviewer: And then, how did you wind up in Michigan? Well from Baxter I got a job at Stryker down in Kalamazoo, and then I moved from Stryker, I moved up to Amway Cooperation and I did the Germany and Switzerland distributors for Amway. Interviewer: To think back to the military career a little bit, how would you characterize the morale in the Navy units you served with? Pretty good. Pretty good, the Navy had a lot of opportunities and I think a lot of people took advantage of them. I think the Navy was pretty good service—for me it was and I think most people were pretty positive about it. Interviewer: Now, I’m not sure to what extent you’d even get to know the enlisted men, but I mean, the Navy was a place where a lot of people enlisted to stay out of the Army or the �Marine Corps. Did you have a sense some of the crew or the enlisted men you were working with were people who were there because there was a Draft on? You know, there might have been a little bit of that. I think people that got into the Navy or were in the Navy felt like they were probably a little better off than having gone to Vietnam and serving in-country. That was pretty hazardous. I had a fraternity brother and before I joined the Navy we talked about being buddies and joining the Navy together. I kinda lucked out and went the OCS, Officer Candidate School route and he went in with the Marines, and he became a corpsman with the Marines. And then he went in-country in Vietnam and I got several letters from him. You know, the letters would come from Vietnam, somehow they would go to the United States then go back to the ship, so it was before cell phones. He would tell me about his adventures and what he was doing, and it made your heart point to read those letters. I think he was fortunate to live through it, I’m sure he saved a lot of lives and was a great person to have on patrol as a corpsman. And then he’s since had a distinguished career since he left the Navy, left the Marines. Well actually, he was never in the Marines. He was a Navy Corpsman. Interviewer: Yeah, he was a Navy Corpsman who served with the Marines. Cause the Marines don’t have medics. Now when I read those things it’s kind of a double thing. You know you wonder “Wow, man, this guy’s really doing something good. He’s contributing.” but on the other hand woah is that dangerous. War can be tough. (1:03:51) Interviewer: Now did you notice any kind of racial tensions or issues on the big ships or on the bases? Not that I recall. Not that I recall. It was… there were, you know, people from different ethnic groups and it seemed like the Navy was pretty good about assimilating. When I was in Bremerhaven, Admiral Zumwalt came out with what they call Z-grams, which I think tried to get people to talk about things and open up, and so on the midwatch I kind of instituted rap sessions, with the Chief’s permission of course. We would get a few people that had a little bit of extra time and get together and talk about problems and what could be done about them, and you know I always believed in a sense of participation and being able to speak your problems out and talking about them as being the first part of getting things resolved, so we kept talking. That was—you know I don’t know where the Navy is with that kind of stuff today, but that was a little bit new back then. Interviewer: I ask the questions in part because of certain stereotypes about the US military, especially in the Vietnam era, and they can have to do with morale, they can have �to do with race, and the other issue that comes up is drug use. Was that noticeable at all within the Navy? No, I didn't notice any drug use. Did not. Interviewer: It would be probably hard to have a whole lot of that on the ships like that. Right, right. I think you heard stories about some people having problems with alcoholism, and on a ship alcohol, in the US Navy, is strictly prohibited but that didn’t mean some people didn’t keep bottles in their bottom desk drawer. But I never saw anybody that had the kind of misbehavior. Interviewer: So for you, how do you think that your time in the navy affected you, or what did you take out of it? Well, I love the Navy. I had a good time in the Navy and I did my job as best I could and I think I contributed to the success of our missions and my different assignments and I look back on the Navy as having been a very wonderful experience. Interviewer: Now how long did you stay in the Reserves? Well I retired in like 1995, so I had about… I think I had about a total of 28 years in. Interviewer: And what rank did you finish at? I retired at Commander 05. Interviewer: And then aside from the sort of two days a month kind of thing, the Reserve service, did you have any other longer stints of training of any kind, or summer trips? Sure, you know we did our two weeks every summer. At least once a year you were supposed to do two weeks and I had some good [times]. I was the commanding officer of the Naval Station Guam out of Muskegon, Michigan, it was a great unit, great people. I had active duty for training and we went to Guam for 17 days, and that was an interesting experience. My job there was to inventory the fire engines on the island. The fire chief was retiring and that was one of the things they had to go was check out all the fire engines, so my wife and I rented a car and during those 17 days we didn’t have a very pressured schedule, we’d just drive around and we’d find one of these fire stations and just kinda come in on them without them knowing about it, that made it more interesting and I’d show them my papers and say I’m inventorying the fire engine. Well you know they got the stock numbers painted right on the side so you’d check it off on the list, �then go sit down with those guys and they’d tell you about their fire station and what they were doing and where the best food was close by, they were always good at that so it was an interesting 17 days on Guam. And some other good active duty; probably the most interesting ones I did were to the pentagon. I was a reserve unit attached to the pentagon, Deputy Chief of Naval Operations, and that was on the ring floor and those people at the pentagon were doing some pretty interesting stuff. For awhile they were working on the U.S. maritime strategy and gosh they had some great guys working on it, trying to figure out what the best way was to confront the Russians if they came out of the baffles, so they put together this strategy that I think helped end the Cold War really. We had to do research into lots of different libraries there at the Pentagon, and that was kind of interesting to see, I spent some time looking at the minutes from the joint Chief of Staff’s meetings at the Pentagon and, you know, Ronald Reagan was in there and I’m reading these things like wow! you know, This is interesting history! Puting that and he would ask me questions like “Did you see anything about how he felt about the Soviet Union? I want more quotes about the evil empire.” stuff like that. (1:10:25) Interviewer: Wow, now when the Gulf War happened, did that have any ripple effects where you were? Not really. Some people got more involved than I did. I know we had to go through sensitivity training, there was a lot of that going on, where we had to be correct in our performance with other people and that kinda got pushed up there. Interviewer: And then at that point is that in dealing with women or people of different races, or? I think mostly with women. The Navy started bringing women into more action roles, so. Interviewer: So did you have women in your unit at Bremerhaven, for instance? No. Interviewer: Were there some on the base that were not in your unit? I don’t believe so. Actually, it was an Army base with a little Navy unit. Interviewer: Okay, so you’re kind of a very specialized group there. Okay, but in the Reserve Units then, you’re getting more women coming into those? �Yes, yes. There’s always, you know, jokes. But you don’t tell jokes because jokes lead to bad feelings. Interviewer: So that was some of the sensitivity training? Yes. Interviewer: I mean, did, as far as you could tell, any of the women have a hard time adjusting or did people not treat them very well? You know, I think it’s hard for women to come into an all men’s situation and it takes some strength of character. And fortunately a lot of them have pretty strong characters and that’s good. As a society I think it’s wonderful to have the female brain as part of our society, like Israel, and respect that contribution to society. You know, it’s gotta be hard on a ship. I never really have experienced official duty aboard on a deployment or something like that with women as part of the operation, but it seems to be working. The exception proves the rule: every once and awhile there’s some kind of a scandal here or a scandal there but gosh I think the Navy’s done a really good job assimilating women into the service. Interviewer: Significantly increases the talent pool. Absolutely! Absolutely. Interviewer: I mean, modern warfare now, so much of it is technical anyway. That’s right! Interviewer: Physical strength is less of an issue. That’s right. That’s right Jim. Interviewer: Alright. Now, let’s see, you had made a set of notes and so forth before coming in here, do you think there’s anything that you were going to talk about that you’ve left out? Gosh, I can’t really… Interviewer: Take a look. �We’ve talked about a lot of good stuff. Um. (Carleton checks his notes.) Not really, I think we’ve pretty much covered everything. My son is in the Reserves now and so the Navy continues. Interviewer: Alright. Well then, I would like to close this by thanking you for taking the time to come and share the story today. Sure Jim, it was fun. (1:13:54) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BrownC2290V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brown, Carleton J. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-12 Title A name given to the resource Brown, Carleton (Interview transcript and video), 2018 Description An account of the resource Carleton Brown was born on October 28, 1944 in New Haven, Connecticut. He graduated high school in 1963. He then began classes the University of Florida for a degree in journalism and communications before enlisting in the Navy in 1966, narrowly dodging the draft. Brown attended Navy Officer Candidate School and Navy Communications School in Newport, Rhode Island. After that, he was assigned to the aircraft carrier USS Yorktown out of California. In December 1967, he was shipped out and headed for Japan. His first experiences at sea were tracking a Soviet attack submarine which was shadowing the USS Enterprise and was later diverted to the Sea of Japan after the capture of the USS Pueblo by the North Koreans. In 1968, he was transferred to the Gulf of Tonkin and Yankee Station, near Hanoi, where his duties were to keep watch on all vessels near the Station, remain alert for any enemy submarine activity, and send out mail to the front. Brown also recalled having to keep watch after the HMAS Melbourne and USS Evans collided in the South China Sea in June of 1969. He was soon promoted to Lieutenant Junior Grade and transferred to the USS Kearsarge on which he conducted many of the same duties as he had on the Yorktown. He also periodically went ashore in places like Singapore, Hong Kong, and the Philippines. Brown then applied to learn Russian at the Presidio of Monterey Army Language School, was assigned to a Navy Security Group, and transferred to Bremerhaven, Germany, in 1970. In Germany, he and his wife raised three children and traveled around Europe while also attending to his Navy watch duties. As a part of his duties, Brown tapped into Russian communications in order to predict where and when Soviet forces were operating in the area. After his tour in Germany, the Navy no longer required his services, so he left the service, resumed his university education, but remained in the Navy Reserves. Back at the University of Florida, and then at the Thunderbird School of Global Management in Arizona, Brown acquired his master’s degree in international management and comparative government. He then went to work for Baxter International Healthcare Company in Chicago before going to work for the Stryker and Amway Corporations out of Kalamazoo, Michigan. Brown remained in the Navy Reserves for twenty-eight years before retiring in 1995. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/023a954d64c51af65a6ee6f7f4b2c258.mp4 beaf1c53f1187d8a6ea2b459feb3d994 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4c09bbe501aa86699e85beeadec43078.pdf 0b9ecb99a57c017981e705cf6dcb56d2 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Dale Brown Interview Length: (40:51) Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Chloe Dingens Interviewer: We're talking today with Dale Brown of St. Johns, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay Dale can you start us off with some background and to begin with where and when were you born? I was born in Lansing, Michigan on February 26, 1948. Interviewer: Okay did you grow up in Lansing or did you move around? I did, I grew up in Lansing, pretty much stayed in that area all my life. Interviewer: Okay and what did your family do for a living while you were growing up? My father was a plasterer and my mother was a homemaker there was, she had to be… there was fourteen of us kids. Interviewer: Wow. And where were you in that sequence? I was the third oldest. Interviewer: Okay and then when did you finish high school? I finished high school in 1966, graduated from Grand Ledge High School. (1:00) Interviewer: Okay and what did you want to do then once you got out of high school? Well, I went to work with General Motors, and I didn't really have a lot of plans at that time but the- the Vietnam War was going, had been going for quite some time. And I thought that I might be called to duty there, was on, in the draft and I chose to enlist in the Air Force to- to get out ofout of Lansing and get, well do what I needed to do. �Interviewer: Okay. Which was serve the country. Interviewer: Alright now why did you choose the Air Force rather than another branch? I thought if I was gonna be going to Vietnam I’d rather have a choice of where I was gonna to be, rather than being put out on a point somewhere and exposed to constant fire, I wanted to choose my- my path. Interviewer: Okay so you were just kind of aware enough of what was going on in Vietnam to have that as kind of conscious decision. Okay now at the time you were enlisting in the Air Force were they very picky about who they took, or did you just show up and get in? (2:08) Yeah, you had to take tests and qualify and I- I managed to get in there, I know now today it’s even more strict, it's very difficult to get in. I- I wouldn't have got in based on today's standards. Interviewer: Alright because it was a- a kind of a popular decision to make and there were people who were trying to get in at certain points and couldn't. Yeah. Interviewer: And you're a little, so when do you actually enlist then? I enlisted in May of ’67. Interviewer: Okay and then having done that, what, where do they send you first for training? First went to Lackland Air Force Base, that's where they train all the recruits for the Air Force pretty much. Interviewer: That’s San Antonio, Texas? San Antonio. �Interviewer: Alright. That’s my first duty station. Interviewer: Okay now what- what did the training actually consist of? A lot of physical training, mental training, and educational training, learning what you're supposed to be doing within the Air Force and how you fit in there. But the main thing was the physical and the, to get you in with the unit, to get you acclimated to that. (3:19) Interviewer: Okay and how much for spit and polish stuff was there? Quite a bit, a lot- a lot of situations where we had to be very, very clean, we had inspections and the sergeants wasn't happy with the things so he- he made us do the whole floor over again and we, I think we used toilet paper to buff it. He was pretty- pretty adamant that the place was a filthy mess, it really wasn't but that's what they did. Interviewer: Okay, now to what extent did you understand what they were doing at the time? I just knew I was there to do what they told me to do, and that's what I tried to do. Interviewer: Okay and how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to being in the military? (4:11) It was- it was a little problematic because I, you know I just lost my father a year before and so I didn't really, I just knew that I was gonna, I was gonna do this whatever it took. I saw too many guys that weren't able to- to do it and I knew that I could do that. Interviewer: Alright now among the- the class or the group that you're training with what proportion of them finished on schedule? I think probably ninety percent. �Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, it was about ten percent that- that fell out for various reasons. Interviewer: Okay and were you in pretty good shape physically when you went in? Actually I was- I was kind of light but I was in better shape when I got out of basic training. Interviewer: Alright and how long did the basic training last? I think, I believe it was about six weeks. (5:06) Interviewer: Okay now at that point what do they do with you? I went home, came home for a leave and then had to report to my next duty station which was my technical school. Interviewer: Okay. For advanced training. Interviewer: And was that back at Lackland or somewhere else? That was, I went to Chanute Air Force Base in Illinois. Interviewer: Okay and what spec- kind of training did you get there? I got training on on B-52s and KC-135 aircraft, hydraulic training. I was trained in hydraulics. Interviewer: Okay and can you describe for layout because most people know what a B-52 is, but what's a KC-135? That's a, it's like a Boeing 707 but it's a- it's a refueling plane and it's like a big flying gas station. Interviewer: Right okay and about how long do you stay there? I’m trying to think, I think I was there a couple months. Interviewer: Okay now when you're there do you just stay on the base or is there? Yes. �Interviewer: Okay. I was able to come home on weekends sometimes. (6:06) Interviewer: But that was, that's like Rantoul, Illinois. Yes. Interviewer: So, there's not a whole lot there? Nope not a whole lot at least I was aware of, but I was always the guy that wanted to be home, you know whenever I could because the family was important. Interviewer: Yeah, alright so that, you go through that and then what kind of guys were training along with you? Did you notice much about them or where they were from or anything else? I didn't really get to a whole lot of involvement, I just, you know we just partnered up and- and worked together and I don't, I didn't really get a chance to talk a lot with them about their various backgrounds and stuff because we were all focused on our training and getting through it and getting out of there. Interviewer: Okay and in the basic and in the technical training here was pretty much everybody white or did you have some black guys or Hispanics in the mix? Yeah, we had, yeah some of everything, yeah. Interviewer: Okay alright so you get through this next stage and that, did they send you for further training or do they go to a base now? Then they shipped me to K.I. Sawyer Air Base. Interviewer: Okay and where is that? That’s in Marquette, Michigan or up in that area. �Interviewer: Okay Actually Gwinn, Michigan. Interviewer: Okay and was that a Strategic Air Command then or? (7:14) Yes, it was, yep. Interviewer: Okay and now do you actually get to apply your training once you get there? Absolutely yeah. Interviewer: So, what was going on while you were there? That is a, was a nuclear base, so they had nuclear ready B-52s all the time. We were doing, they were doing a lot of takeoffs and landings and different things that they were doing, and we were responsible for the maintenance of the hydraulic systems and that's what we did. It- it got a little bit difficult in the wintertime because cold weather affects hydraulics pretty much and Lake Superior and if you go out and recycle the component, why you generally would warm it up and things would go away, so, but that being on alert, a Strategic Air Command Base which was always ready for nuclear war. They didn't mess around with that stuff if- if you couldn't stop the leak, they would pull it off and put another one on. (8:15) Interviewer: Alright now during what time frame were you at Sawyer? I was there in ‘67 until, actually ‘67 until I went to Vietnam but there was a- a short period in there, in 1968, September I went to- to Guam to support the Vietnam. Interviewer: Okay. And I worked P52 models over there, they were D models, we had H models I think at our base, K.I. Sawyer. �Interviewer: Okay and was there any practical difference in terms of what you had to do with them? Same thing as maintenance it was just, it was the intensity of it all you know working twelve hours a day and around the clock, they were doing around the clock bombings. Interviewer: Alright now while you're at- at Sawyer there, you get there in- in ‘67 and so forth you go on and before they send you over to- to Guam for that spell, how much attention did you pay to sort of news of the war and that kind of thing or did you just focus on your job? I didn't think much about Vietnam at that time because I was you know focused on where I was at and what I was doing there. (9:18) Interviewer: Was there an expectation that you'd eventually rotate over to Vietnam or did you think you were gonna stay in Michigan the whole time? I- I- I wasn't sure, when I went to Guam, I thought you know I was, that was gonna be my duty and so I came back from there and the night I got back the guys told me that I had orders from Vietnam, it was kind of a shock. I’d kind of like catch my breath there, you know. Interviewer: Right. Just come back from overseas duty. Interviewer: Okay tell me a little bit about sort of what- what your daily life or routine was like while you're at Sawyer? Reporting to duty every morning and doing whatever hydraulic repair work needed to be done, if there was components that needed to be rebuilt, we'd rebuild them. And if there's components that need to be taken care of on the aircraft, we go out and change them, a lot of brakes and the �B-52 had a hydraulic controlled fire pack for the rear gun, and we had to maintain that also. But all the components of the hydraulic systems on the aircraft was a daily thing and that's what we usually did. (10:22) Interviewer: And was this largely a day job for you or were there night shifts at times? No, I worked just strictly days there. Interviewer: Okay now during the time you were there did they ever have any kind of alerts or things where they kind of change the routine on you either as a drill or? They- they had alerts yeah. Interviewer: Okay. They call those quite frequently and you had to be there, you couldn't be somewhere else and I- I messed that up once, you know. I came home on a weekend and they called me, told me there’s an alert and I didn't get back and I got- got in a little bit of trouble with that. Interviewer: Well, it takes a little while to get up to Marquette from… Yeah. Interviewer: …Lansing so yeah that could certainly happen, but I mean that you know because they can't announce ahead of time that they're gonna have an alert or whatever so. No, no I- I had stand by duty that weekend and I knew it, but I came home, and they called the alert, so I didn't get back. (11:17) Interviewer: Alright and so what’s- what's the penalty for that? Well it could have been court martial. Interviewer: Okay. �But my sergeant was understanding, he knew that at that time I was headed for Vietnam. So, he, I think he kind of gave me a break. Interviewer: Okay so that was late enough, and I guess that's the old question what are they going to do? Send me to Vietnam? Yeah. Interviewer: And you’re already going. Alright yeah, what- what kind of people were- were on the crew you were working with? You had a lot of lifers or were they mostly young guys like you? In- in, at K.I. Sawyer? Interviewer: Yeah. Mostly young guys we had long-term guys that were the shop chiefs, you know they were in charge of that. So, there's probably two or three of the higher-ranking NCOs. Interviewer: Okay but then… Mostly it was us younger guys who were doing all the work. Interviewer: Okay now the orders for Vietnam came was that normally just individually? They weren't sending groups together. (12:13) Right. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, it came individual. Interviewer: Okay so you got your call and now how do, what's the process for now getting you out to Vietnam, right. So, let's talk a little bit more about Guam first. You get sent out to Guam, what was that base like and what was your life like while you were there? �It was tropical and I had, I remember going down the side of the, we’d go down the side of the mountain when we had a little time off, take a bus down to the side of the mountain to the beach and we could enjoy the beach and that was nice and although I did get hit with Portuguese Man 0’War while I was there, that kind of woke me up. But yeah, that was a daily routine of maintenance of the aircraft and that's pretty much where I was at, there was a, two Japanese soldiers came out of the jungle and surrendered from World War II while I was there, and I thought that was interesting. And just the- the daily constant routine of watching these aircraft go take off and you know you can watch them take off at the end of the runway but you couldn't see that they got up okay because it was like 400 feet up, and they would- they would a lot of times would drop down a little bit and then they'd come back up, you’d see them come back up over the horizon so you knew they made it, so far as coming, coming up, taking off. (13:37) Interviewer: Kind of like launching them off of an oversized aircraft carrier? Yeah, yeah that's what it looked like yeah. Interviewer: Okay that did you, were you aware of any of them not coming back? Yes, yeah. Interviewer: So, was that and how would you find out about that or? That was just word came down through the, through the guys in charge, you know, “we lost this one or that one.” Interviewer: Now was that a regular occurrence or just occasional? Occasional I think, yeah. Interviewer: Okay well how long were you actually there? I was there four months. �Interviewer: Okay that's a substantial chunk of time so that's the latter part of ’68 or? Yes, from September to, I came, I flew back New Year’s Eve. Interviewer: Okay, alright now at that point now you were assuming that your overseas was essentially done? (14:21) Well, I hadn't even given it a thought, I just… Interviewer: Okay. You know, I was just kind of shocked when these guys told me that. I thought they were kidding with me. Interviewer: Alright so you've gone- you've done your four months in Guam, you get back, okay you're going to Vietnam, and then how long was it before you actually went over to Vietnam? Well, I got back right after the first of the year and then in March I had to go down to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina to train for the F-100. Interviewer: Okay so it's not, yeah because the B-52s weren't based in- in Vietnam. No. Interviewer: To begin with, they were elsewhere in Guam or Thailand or whatever, okay and so now just describe the new aircraft you're working on. The F-100 is a fighter plane and it's a lot smaller than a B-52, so everything is just kind of downsized, it's more compact, you know it's a little tighter working area, things like that, yeah, it's just learning the systems you know where they're at. (15:16) �Interviewer: Okay now were you still doing mainly hydraulics, or did you add more things? Just hydraulics yeah, never left hydraulics. Interviewer: Alright okay and so then about how long do you stay there? I think I was there about four weeks for training then they- they let me come home for about a month and I went, and then I went over May 1st. Interviewer: Okay and then how do they physically get you out to Vietnam? I flew on a flying lot called Flying Tiger Airlines; it was Continental Airlines the plane I went on. But I flew from- from Lansing to Seattle, and then from Seattle to Vietnam. Interviewer: Okay and from Seattle did you go by Alaska or something like that or did you just go straight over? I think they stopped, did they go through Japan or Alaska or some place? They made- they made a stop somewhere along the way. Interviewer: Yeah. I can't remember where it was now. (16:10) Interviewer: Yeah, there was a standard northern route that would take you to Anchorage and then Japan. Yeah, yeah. Interviewer: And then down, sort of one of the ones a lot of people took. What was the mood like on the plane? Oh, it was just kind of subdued I guess, you know we all knew we were going, we're just waiting to get there. Everybody had a full, lot of anxiety I suppose about what you're gonna be going �into. But I kind of felt like I had this tour in Guam, so I was kind of comfortable with where I was going but that changes. Interviewer: Yeah, now were the- where there men from different branches of the service together on that plane? I thought that, I think these were all Air Force. Interviewer: Okay alright and then where do you land in Vietnam? We landed in Cam Ranh Bay. Interviewer: Okay and what was your first impression of Vietnam when you got there? Hot, stifling. Interviewer: Did you land during the day or night? During the day, yeah. Interviewer: Okay and was there anything going on when you landed or was it quiet? (17:07) There was something going on before we landed, we took a big drop in the altitude real quick and that was, I didn't think it was gonna make it. The plane kept going down finally it came, it got itself righted and brought it up and- and we landed okay, but there wasn't anything going on there, just the busyness of everybody moving here and there and the terminal I went into and there's full of Vietnamese people and they were all squatted on benches and stuff, it just kind of seemed to be kind of a surreal looking place to be. Interviewer: Okay so there's a lot of Vietnamese just on the base in Cam Ranh Bay when you get there? Yeah. Interviewer: Okay and then what did they do with you once you land? �I was there about an hour maybe two and they got me on a C-130 and flew me up to Tuy Hoa my base. Interviewer: Now where in Vietnam is that? It's about 160 miles northeast of Saigon. Interviewer: Okay. Right on the South China Sea. Interviewer: Alright and then what unit do you join when you get there? I joined the 31st, I was assigned to the 31st Field Maintenance Squadron which was part of the 31st Tactical Fighter Wing. Interviewer: Okay and they have F-100s there? Yes. (18:19) Interviewer: Okay so you actually got to work on what they trained you for. Absolutely yeah and more. Interviewer: Okay alright now describe first of all I guess a little bit just the- the base facility, kind of what was there and what kind of what did you live in and that kind of thing. It was a very, very nice base to be on, I mean if you had to be in Vietnam that was a good one to be on. And it was, they had by the time I got there they had- they had these metal hooches for us to stay in and I can’t remember how many guys would stay in those, 40/ 80 but they were all sectioned off. And then we had bunkers in between those to, in case there was an incoming. So, yeah but there was you know, you- you could walk to wherever you wanted to go, or you could catch a bus eventually, you know they had buses running all the time with the locals driving �those. So, we'd kind of depend on those to get up to the flight line to go to work and everything but we had movie theater, they had a lot of amenities there that you know most people don't have. (19:23) Interviewer: Yeah, I mean were the barracks air conditioned or? No. Interviewer: Okay, so they're not have that, quite that far. No, no. Interviewer: Alright and they, I mean about how- how many planes do you think were based there while you were there? I don't know, I really don't know I know it was probably well over a hundred Interviewer: Okay so substantial base, aside from the F-100s what else do they have there? They had C-130s which were rescue planes, they had, eventually they brought in some AC-119 gunships when I was about ten months in the country, they brought those in. And we had various helicopters and different Army spotter planes, we had O-2 our- our forward air controllers flew O-2 Bird Dogs, so we maintained those also, a little push-pull assessment, it's kind of like working on a model airplane. (20:19) Interviewer: Right, okay now when you get in there what kind of reception or welcome do you get when you show up? It was just kind of you know, there’s just another guy here you know, just they just kind of would tell you what you- what you need to know. You ask them and they tell you, the thing that surprised me was when I got there, I was talking to one of the guys and I asked him what base he �came from and he said, “home base,” and I didn't recognize that as an Air Force Base and he told me he was from the New York Air National Guard. And there was, at that time we were replacing his unit that had been there for a year and it was the New York Air National Guard and the- the 188th Tactical Fighter Squadron out of New Mexico, which is another guard unit, so those two units were there. Interviewer: Yeah, and actually most of it, there were not a whole lot of- of Guard or Reserve Units necessarily went to Vietnam. That just surprised me. Interviewer: Yeah. I didn't know that they had them there. (21:14) Interviewer: Yeah, but there were some certain places and I think it depend on what- what they could do. Yeah. Interviewer: But mostly they relied on draftees. Alright now how busy was the base while you were there? It was very busy, yeah if the- if the skies were clear, it was busy constantly, there's constantly aircraft coming and going, taking off, landing. The only time it was curtailed any is during inclement weather when we had monsoons and heavy rains and stuff, they couldn't get up there, but most all the time it was real busy. Interviewer: Okay and from where your perspective did you have much of a sense of what was going on in the larger war at that point? �No, you know I knew that we were flying air support for people and I knew that we had infantry taking care of our perimeter you know, kind of keeping us secure so we could help them out. You just see, you know you'd see flares going up at night and you could see tracers and stuff like that, so you knew there was some things going on but that never really got real close to us that I could see. They did hit the base with rocket and mortar attack I think seven days after I left. (22:32) Interviewer: Okay but while you were there, there weren't any… While I was there, I don't remember any- any incoming rounds, although we did have some sniper fire that one of our aircraft was out on a trim pad at night and they- they took on some sniper fire. So, that ended that nighttime stuff out on the permitter. Interviewer: Alright so on the whole then it was- it was a fairly quiet tour as far as things went, it was busy, did you have a sense of what kind of losses the air units were taking? What kind of losses? Interviewer: Yeah, I mean where you lose, were some of the fighters not coming back? Oh yeah, yeah, I- I know several that were, didn't make it back. And we actually we lost one of our own guys, one of the guys in my shop got shot by our guys, he's working on an aircraft and they touched off a round in the next group that went over, failing to get the trigger lock on and took this guy on the side, didn't kill him but I never found out other than the fact that he did survive how he's doing today, always wondered about him. (23:41) Interviewer: Now were there problems with accidents or faulty maintenance or things or was? �Yeah, you'd have those I mean that's just, that's part of war you know when you're in a situation like that where you're trying to get things going as rapidly as you can and people you know make mistakes after a while. Interviewer: Okay how would you, now what kind of group or set of men do you get to know while you're there, just people doing your particular thing or more than that? Most of the guys in my shop and then my, all the guys in my hooch and they were from different career fields too, so I had a guy did parachutes there and guys that were in charge of power equipment, and jet engine guys, and you know just everybody, all the maintenance people were, they were- they weren't all separated, they were all grouped together in the hooches. Interviewer: Okay how would you characterize the morale of the men that you knew there? (24:36) I think it was pretty good, yeah for the most part we did pretty good with it. We were all determined to do the very best we could do to make sure that this pilot got to where he was going and getting back and you know we knew that that kind of depends on us, you know it just depends on us to do that. Interviewer: Okay. And the guys were very good about what they did. Interviewer: Okay now there are a lot of stereotypes about Vietnam that don't always fit reality all that well and sometimes they do, one of them has to do with- with just drug use. Were you aware of that going on, on the base and to what extent? Yeah, yeah, I- I was introduced to marijuana while I was there, and I’d never smoked that before so that was my induction over there. But yeah, there wasn't, it wasn't, I don't think it was a real rampant amount of guys, I mean there were some guys you know doing it obviously, but I saw it �in the people that came to work on the base, the Vietnamese men that were working there. One of them was, he was in charge of a crew of ladies that he was- he was always plastered. (25:42) Interviewer: Now it was like marijuana use and stuff like that, I mean was that kind of the, have the same role sort of as drinking beer or whatever as sort of stress buster? I- I suppose it probably was but I- I- I didn't do that I just drank beer most of the time. Interviewer: Yeah, I mean basically you didn't have a lot of people showing up to work stoned or drunk or anything like that? No, no we did have I think it happened to every one of us pretty much that I can think of one day, you know a guy would miss duty because he was drinking and we had one guy show up on a night shift who was, he was definitely trashed and he was going- he was going home the next day, so we just laid him out on the bench and told him to chill out and we'll take care of it, you know. Interviewer: So, you're really not in a situation where any of that kind of stuff affects your job performance. No. Interviewer: Yeah, you're doing that, okay another issue has to do with race relations I mean do you have like black guys in your crew and? (26:36) Yeah, yeah, we did have yeah. Interviewer: And was there, I mean did they kind of segregate themselves from everybody else or anything like that? �I don't think so I think some- some may have tried to do that but there was- there was some that that did that, and they were attacking people at night, you know getting guys and beating them up. But that's- that halted after a while and we had- we had black soldiers in our- in our unit, you know in our hooch, it's some of my best friends, you know but we all worked together. We were there for the same, well we were there for the same purposes, but I know that stuff went on, you know. Interviewer: So, it's going on, you know somewhere on the base but not necessarily among the guys in your particular unit? You know there's always people that have that in them you know from wherever they come, from their culture or whatever, whether they be white or black they've got this stereotype of people and they just think that's the way it is you know. (27:36) Interviewer: And that was a point in time when there was a lot of tension at home already and the Black Power Movement was going. Yeah. Interviewer: And so, some of them are coming over and they bring a certain amount of that stuff with them too. Okay but again was that stuff that was kind of around the margins and not really affecting the actual work you did? Yeah, I didn't- I didn't really see that much. Interviewer: Okay now did you stay on the base pretty much your whole time or did you go anywhere else or do anything else? I made- I made two trips into the village, once to go to an orphanage or twice to go to an orphanage, three trips I must have made, to go to an orphanage and then one trip to go see a lady. �Interviewer: Okay. And that didn’t- that didn't work out too good so. Interviewer: What- did the base have a relationship with the orphanage or? (28:26) Yes, yeah, yeah that was through the chaplain I think, he had that going on so we, you know we'd go in there take the kids some candy and stuff, visit with them. Interviewer: And what impression did you have of the Vietnamese civilians who came andand worked on the base? For the most part they were good, you know there was a couple that I didn't trust and that's just the way it was, you know. I wouldn't let him shave me with a straight razor. And I caught one guy stealing our alarm clocks and that was not a good thing. Interviewer: Okay now did you have hooch maids cleaning for you or things like that? Just Vietnamese ladies. Interviewer: Yeah Yeah. Interviewer: And they, did people like that did they do your laundry and that kind of thing? They did our laundry yeah, yeah and I was in charge of paying the gal that did ours, so she'd come to me all the time. Interviewer: Okay did some of the men sort of try to take advantage of the situation or the women who worked there? Oh yeah, I’m sure yeah. (29:30) �Interviewer: Not, but not something that created much of any actual disturbance or? No they did it, you know on the sly, you know or secretly and so you know you just don’t know when that's gonna happen because you got people coming and going all the time. You know it’s kind of hard to- to work that situation out if you're gonna be doing something like that with somebody. Interviewer: And do they have a system where the Vietnamese all had to go off the base at night and then come back in the morning and check in? Yeah, they checked them out like a big cattle trucks, big semi with a flatbed trailer and they had sidewalls on it they'd haul them all out there, bring them all in. Interviewer: Okay now did you have any sense that there was much by way Vietcong activity out in the regions outside the base or did you not really hear about that? Well, when I’d see the flares go up at night and you know you see tracers and you’d see helicopter gunships out there, you knew something was going on. So, you know that kind of heightened your sense of awareness there. Interviewer: Yeah. (30:28) And with us being in the Air Force we didn't have access to our weapons, they had them locked up and they said they'd give them to us if they were being overrun and that- that never made me feel comfortable. Interviewer: Right. That's a bad time to be distributing weapons. �Interviewer: Okay now as far as you know did they, did the base get you know probed by sappers or anything like that while you were there? Not while I was there, prior to me getting there, there were. Interviewer: Okay and then did you get an R&R while you were there? I did. Interviewer: Where'd you go? I went to Australia. Interviewer: Okay now did you pick that or was that what was available? I picked it. Interviewer: Okay. But you had to have ten- ten months in country before you could go. Interviewer: Okay where did- where did you go in Australia? I went to Sydney, yeah me and two other guys from Michigan that were my good buddies, so we all went together. Interviewer: Okay and what's the appeal of going to Australia rather than Hong Kong or someplace? Oh just to see like American women. Interviewer: Or Australian ones, anyway. You know, and you know we actually I, we thought it was summertime over there, but it really wasn't, it was winter there when we went in March, I think it was. So, it was kind of, the idea of going down the beach kind of went away, it was kind of chilly. (31:43) Interviewer: Okay. �But we did experience some good things there. Interviewer: Yeah, how did the Australians treat the American servicemen over there? Very good, very good they were very warm and welcoming, yeah. Interviewer: Okay now the time you're over there or for that matter before that when you were still out on Sawyer how aware were you of the anti-war movement that was going on back at home? I was pretty well aware of it. Especially when I got back, and that Kent State thing happened a few days afterwards. Interviewer: But then but while you were there or before you went, I mean did you have a reaction or a response to that or? About the anti-war stuff? Interviewer: Yeah. I didn't really care; it wasn't my job, you know my job was to do what I do and whatever they want to do that's their business as long as they don’t infringe on my right to do my job. Interviewer: Right, alright now over the course of the year that you- you spent in Vietnam are there any particular incidents or things that kind of stand out in your memory? Yeah, the- the- the guy- the guy in my shop that got shot, that- that stands up. And- and the, I had one incident where I was down the intake of an air F-100 changing a pump and that's fourteen feet down in there kind of confined space and I heard this- this air motor start up outside and that's an indication they're getting ready to rotate the engine so that made be real excitable, you can imagine I come flying out of there. I asked that crew chief what was going on, he says, “oh I’m just testing this thing out.” I said, “man,” I said, “I’m down in intake,” I said, “I don’t want you testing that out but that doesn't make me feel real comfortable at all.” So, we had an �agreement that he wouldn't do that anymore but that was a- that was kind of a big, big deal. And then the- the aircraft that would crash you know we'd have a lot of crash nose gear, one plane crashed off the coast and they brought the remains back in, it was just a mess, you know. And you know you knew- you knew that you lost guys then that just kind of put a little bit of a, little cast a little shadow over the whole thing. (33:57) Interviewer: Yeah, so you're reminded you really are in a war. Yeah, a place where people would die. Interviewer: Between that and then the occasional fireworks outside and then the rest of that. Now yourself, did you basically feel pretty safe the, most of the time you were there? Most of the time I guess I probably didn’t think about it, but when I had moments to reflect especially at night with those flares going off at night, illumination flares, and impending, you know something may happen and we have no way of defending ourselves that was not very good. Interviewer: Yeah, how much understanding did you have of why we were in Vietnam in the first place? Not a whole lot, I just figured they were there to stop communism and that's what they were doing, and that's what I was willing to do. Interviewer: Okay and over the course of the year that you were there do you have any sense of how the war was going? I mean did you think we were winning, or could you not tell? You know it kind of comes and goes, there wasn't a lot of information like that you know that we were doing this or doing that. I just pretty much focused on the daily task you know, so. �Interviewer: Okay and as your year kind of starts to wind out are you counting the days ‘til you get to leave or? (35:05) Yeah. Interviewer: Okay and then what's the process then for getting you back out of Vietnam? You have to get a… I’m trying think of what they call that, get your- your flight information that you have your flight call, you know and then you just, they fly you back down to Cam Ranh and you get on the plane and you fly out of there and… Interviewer: Okay and what's the mood on the plane when you take off? Real tense but after we got out over the water, you know and got away, up and away there was a big cheer let out. Interviewer: Alright and where do you land in the states when you get back? We landed in Seattle. Interviewer: Okay and then what kind of reception do they have for you when you get there? Well, they actually held us on the plane for about 45 minutes in Seattle. Interviewer: Okay. (35:54) And I don't know what that was about, but it was you know a little disturbing because I had a plane to catch to get to- to Detroit and then to, or not Detroit, to Chicago and then Lansing. So, I was concerned I was gonna miss that but just being able to sit on the airplane and look out and see all that green it was wonderful, but we wanted to get out and smell it you know. �Interviewer: Now were you actually at- at the SeaTac Airport or were you at an air base or? (36:19) Yeah, at, I think it was McChord Airbase. Interviewer: Yep, okay but then from there you would have had to get over to SeaTac or something. Right. Interviewer: To then fly, but you actually had plane reservations already set to get you home? I think I did, yeah, yeah. Interviewer: Okay now was there a lot of, did you have to do much out processing at the McChord or do they just send you away. I didn’t, no, no. Interviewer: Okay. I just got right out there and got over there, the airport and got on the plane and flew to Chicago. Interviewer: Okay now as you're going through the airports now are you encountering any protesters or things like that? I didn't- I didn't see a whole lot of that. Interviewer: Okay and were you going in uniform or in civilian clothes? I was in uniform. Interviewer: Okay so people don't look at you funny or anything like that you just… If they did, I didn't care. Interviewer: Okay. �And I don't think I was aware of it; you know I was- I was focused on where I was going and… Interviewer: Yeah. Who I was going to see. Interviewer: Different people report different things and for a lot of them is no big deal for some of them it is. (37:07) Yeah. Interviewer: Okay now at this point do you still have time left on your enlistment? Or are you just about done? Oh when I got back? Yeah, I had time left. Interviewer: Okay so you've got a leave home and then you have to report somewhere again? Yeah, excuse me, I had to come back to K.I. Sawyer. Interviewer: Okay and did you just go back to doing what you had done before you left? Yeah, pretty much yeah. Interviewer: Okay and did it seem at all different after having spent a year in Vietnam or could you just pick up where you left off? I didn't, I felt kind of confident in my abilities, you know what I was doing. Interviewer: Okay and then when do you complete your enlistment? I completed it in, I got discharged in December of 1970. Interviewer: Okay. They let me out early to go to school but on the discharge, it says convenience to the government so. �Interviewer: Yeah. I don't know exactly what all that means. (37:57) Interviewer: Alright and you mentioned that the- the Kent State incident had happened sort of shortly after you got back, I mean what did you learn about it or what kind of reaction was there where you were? Well, I, me personally I thought that that's good, you know they, if those guys were coming at them, they needed to shoot them. But you know I’ve since had a little change of heart so. Interviewer: I mean ideally you don’t shoot protesters. Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah okay. Unless they- unless they are threatening. Interviewer: Right. Yeah, that's kind of an overreaction. Interviewer: Yeah, but anyway, but it certainly it attracted a lot of attention. Yeah. Interviewer: And then the, and then did you follow news about the war after you were back? Oh yeah, yeah. Interviewer: And when it, basically things fell apart were you surprised, or did you see it coming or? �Yeah, I- I kind of saw that coming because they were just, they never really, I don't think they ever really let the- the Military fight the war you know it was being fought from Washington and that's- that's not a good place to be doing that. (38:59) Interviewer: Alright now you say, you went to school then after you got back? Yeah, I got discharged in December and I went to LCC, started going to LCC taking automotive classes. Interviewer: Okay so Lansing Community College. Yep. Interviewer: Okay and then did you go into automotive work after that or what did you do? I went- I went back to work at GM and continued to work in there and eventually I got into a- a mechanical job at GM in the engineering. Interviewer: Okay. So… Interviewer: Okay and then did you have college beyond the community college, or did you just develop your skills on the job? Just developed them on the job, well I took an apprenticeship through- through GM too. Interviewer: Alright. So, I continued that. Interviewer: Now to look back at your- your time on the serve- in the service what do you think you took out of that or how did that affect you? Well it- it helped me to learn how to work with people you know, how to be a part of, and you �know and rely on people. And so that's- that's one of the biggest things I think and that people, most people are- are trying to do the right thing, you know you just have to join up with them and hang in there. And yeah, that was, and it gave me the ability to know that I can- I can solve problems that come up, you know that I don't have to quit, I can always continue and try again, try differently, enlist the help of somebody else, you can use your resources you know, they're always available. (40:24) Interviewer: So, for you I mean it was largely a positive experience? Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah. Vietnam was good for me; the whole military thing was good for me because it gave me structure and discipline and I needed that. Interviewer: Alright well you actually tell your story very efficiently which is just as well since we’re on the clock this morning, so I just like to thank you for taking the time to talk to me today. You're welcome. Interviewer: Okay, yeah, okay. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BrownD1673V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brown, Dale Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-09 Title A name given to the resource Brown, Dale (Interview transcript and video), 2014 Description An account of the resource Dale Brown was born in Lansing, Michigan on February 26, 1948. After graduating high school in 1966 he worked for General Motors before deciding to enlist since he thought he might be drafted to Vietnam anyway. Brown enlisted in the Air Force in May 1967 and went to Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas for basic training. He then attended advanced training at Chanute Air Force Base in Rantoul, Illinois, where he was trained in hydraulics for B-52’s and KC-135 aircraft. After training, he was shipped to K.I. Sawyer Air Base in Gwinn, Michigan, where he worked on maintaining hydraulic systems. In 1968 Brown was sent to Guam for four months to maintain aircraft, and the night he got back to the base in Michigan, he heard that he had orders to go to Vietnam. He began training for the F-100 fighter plane in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina in March 1969, and that May he was flown to Cam Ranh Bay, Vietnam to be shipped out to Tuy Hoa Air Base. There, he was assigned to the 31st Field Maintenance Squadron which was part of the 31st Tactical Fighter Wing. He mostly stayed on the base the whole time except for a few trips into the surrounding village to volunteer at an orphanage. Brown and two of his comrades also from Michigan visited Sydney, Australia for R&R. While on base in Vietnam, was aware of fighting going on in the surrounding areas and would see flares go up at night, although he never experienced it himself. However, some of the aircraft they sent out never returned, and even within his shop there were accidents with one worker accidentally getting shot by his teammates. After a year in Vietnam, he was shipped back home and returned to K.I. Sawyer Air Base to finish his enlistment. He was discharged in December 1970, after which he began taking automotive classes at Lansing Community College and returned to work at General Motors. He believes his service was a positive experience that gave him structure and discipline, helped him learn how to work with and rely on people, and made him realize that he can persevere through any problems that he may face. Cam Ranh Bay Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/872ac31a1759c700779820c03bdb6e62.pdf b7265ba1b3c44c5295b1827efbffdc2a PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Elaine Brown Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/10/2013 Runtime: 01:00:07 Biography and Description Oral history of Elaine Brown, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on May 10, 2013 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, if you give me your name, date of birth, where you were born. ELAINE BROWN: Not date of birth. Nobody does that. JJ: Okay. Where you were born or something like that. EB: Hi, I’m Elaine Brown. I was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. JJ: Okay. We’ll -- like your family or something like that. Are they all from Philadelphia or...? EB: Well, my mother was born in Philadelphia and my father was -- I don’t know where my father was born because I didn’t really know him. Until I was 13, I never met him, didn’t even know he existed. And he, as it turns out, was a doctor in Philadelphia but had been, you know -- [and?] he was married. And so, my mother was this kind of other woman, you know. And she had this illegitimate child, which was me. JJ: [00:01:00] Were you the only child or...? EB: I was the only child that -- of the two of them as far as I know. He had no children at all and I was actually the only child left in the -- on his side of the family I was the only one -- he was the only one that produced a child. JJ: Okay so you grew up in what part of Philadelphia or...? EB: I grew up in a rough area of North Philadelphia until I was about, I don’t remember, 15 or something. And we moved a lot of places in between but mostly we stayed on -- my address was an address on a street called York 1 �Street. It’s one of the most difficult areas in Philadelphia, and Philadelphia is a very sad city. JJ: What do you mean? Just kinda describe what you mean. EB: It’s sad because where I grew up is very poor and it’s in the city, so there’s no relief. There’s no grass, there’s no trees, there’s no nothing like that. And then at the same time there’s no real entertainment [00:02:00] in Philadelphia, in the sense that you can’t go anywhere. Like in New York, you could at least get out of the hood and go somewhere, but in Philadelphia there’s nowhere to really go. So, you know, you were sorta stuck in the neighborhood and I hated that. I hated the neighborhood. It was rough, there was always a gang fight. You know, you always had to watch back and, you know, this kinda thing. JJ: Okay and then -- EB: Now is this part of thing or you just using it -- JJ: Yeah j -- No, no, no, just part of thing it’s, ’cause it’s an oral history so we just trying to get a little -- EB: Oh, I see. JJ: --little personal there, but not too personal. EB: (yawns) I’m so sorry. JJ: So, whatever you -- EB: I’m gonna stop yawning. JJ: Whatever you want to say. EB: Okay. JJ: Okay. But okay so then you move where when you were 15? 2 �EB: So, you want to know something about my background? JJ: Little bit about your background. EB: Okay. So, a lot of this I wrote about in my book -- JJ: Okay. Yeah. Whatever you want. EB: -- A Taste of Power. [00:03:00] And so, the bottom line of my life as an individual was that I grew up very poor in a house of women, all of whom were very strong and independent and crazy, I would say. My mother, my grandmother, and my aunt, which was my mother’s sister. But by the time I was entering kindergarten I was taken to a very special school for children who were considered smart, or whatever. And my mother was able to finagle that. And most of the children there were Jewish and well to do, from my perspective. So, in the daytime during the school year, during the week, I would go to the little, practically all white, Jewish school and I would be Jewish, in my mind. I’d wanna fit in. And then I realized [0:04:00] I had to go back into the bowels of North Philadelphia. So, by the time I would get back to North Philadelphia, I would be Black. And this caused tremendous conflict for me internally in terms of identity and all that sort of thing. JJ: Okay, so -- EB: I just have to yawn, I’m so sorry. JJ: No, no, that’s not -- EB: You want to turn the camera off? You don’t care. JJ: I know it’s kinda late. It’s gettin’ late. We just did this panel discussion and it’s late. 3 �EB: Oh, God. Just give me a chance. I’m sorry. (yawns) Okay, go ahead. JJ: Do you wanna drink some water or something? EB: No. JJ: Okay. So, during the day you’re Jewish and at night, you Black basically? EB: Right. JJ: And so -- EB: So, I never fit into either world I lived in. I didn’t fit in where the Blacks were, plus I was going -- my mother had me in ballet school, taking piano lessons, which I later [0:05:00] believe -- or when I thought about it later, I realized it was probably my father. My father was a rich -- relatively rich Philadelphia doctor. He was a neurosurgeon. How many Black neurosurgeons? But he had a wife and she never gave him any children, and I was clearly his child because once I saw him, but more than that, his father, I look exactly like this man, but exactly. So, I had a sense that by going to these, you know, ballet lessons and piano lessons I didn’t fit into the hood. And I didn’t fit in where the white kids went to school, so I just was very, very conscious of how alone I was in the world. JJ: And so, you didn’t fit into nobody, basically you’re saying. EB: I never felt that I fit in with the Blacks or with the whites. But I fit in when I was there. As far as they knew, [0:06:00] I fit in. Whatever they were, I was. JJ: But internally you just felt -- EB: Internally I didn’t feel I fit anywhere. And as a result, I felt I fit nowhere. JJ: Okay so now you’re 15 and you moved out of Philadelphia -- EB: No, no, no, no. 4 �JJ: (inaudible) EB: So, when I was 13 or so we moved into the public housing project, which was a step up for us. (laughs) And then we -- JJ: Different part of town or? EB: No, in North Philadelphia. Very close, as a matter fact. And then we moved to an area called Tioga and, um, I can’t remember but we moved a lot after that. Finally, we moved to Germantown which, at that time, was considered a very, very upscale Black area. So, I was so happy we lived there. And that was, like, the year of my graduation from high school. JJ: What high school? EB: [0:07:00] I went to the Philadelphia High School for Girls, which was also a very special school. You had to take aptitude tests, or you had to take an entry level test if you hadn’t gone to a school that was approved or whatever. There was a big competition among the top 10 high schools, and American Girls High was among them. But Central High, which was for boys, was always ahead of Girls High in terms of scoring. Test score and so forth. Okay, I gotta wake up. I’m sorry. JJ: And where did the -- how do you get from Philadelphia to Oakland or -- EB: Well to California -- JJ: -- to California? EB: When I was around 22, I decided that I couldn’t take anymore of Philadelphia. I had one thing that happened that sort of, you know, pushed me over the edge, as it were, was that I had this little Jewish boyfriend when I was 16 [0:08:00] and 5 �I was madly in love with him. And I just knew we were gonna get married, and I had this vision, you know, of us going off into the sunset. You know, one of those kinds of things. And the first thing he did was -- I said I wanted to go to a movie, a walk-in theater ’cause we went to drive-ins all the time. And he said, “No. I can’t go there because I might see someone in my family.” And I thought, “And what?” Because I had become so superficial and so self-absorbed, I didn’t think that it mattered. I thought I was so above the average Black. And he said we couldn’t go because of that. And then later, we went somewhere in his car. He had a Lincoln Town Car. This is a 17-year-old boy. And it was a Friday night and we went by the synagogue where his parents attended. [0:09:00] And they were just letting out. And when he saw that, he goes, “Oh my God, duck.” That one word killed me. And after that, we kinda broke up. And so, I don’t know why I’ve told you this because I’m really getting sleepy. I’m so sorry. I’d almost ask you to do this early in the morning, rather than now, ’cause I’m really sleepy. But what do you wanna do? JJ: Well -- EB: I’m tryin’ to move but I lost my train of thought though, just then. JJ: Well, you said that he said, “duck”. EB: Yeah, no, no. That’s -- I remember the story. I’m talkin’ about where was this coming from? Where was I going with this story? What was the reason I described that to you? Oh, why I left Philadelphia. See I was trying to make the thread, okay. All right, so we sort of separated and then I went to Temple University. And [0:10:00] one day I just heard from him, out of the blue, and he 6 �said, “I’ve been trying to reach you.” And this, and that, and the other. And so, I agreed to meet him, and he wanted to have sex with me. And I thought, “You figure because I’m some Black girl and, you know, that I’m easy and this is how this is gonna go?” So, I said, “I never want to see you again.” And I walked away from and away from school. Then I got a job, and the whole Philadelphia was driving me crazy. Between him, my father, my mother, all these things, and one day I just picked up and went to LA. Because I had an aunt there, but I didn’t really know her that well. One of my mother’s sisters. JJ: Okay, and so you -- What happened after that, after you got to LA? I mean, what did you -- did you get involved in the party right away? EB: No, no, no. I mean, here it was 1965, Watts is blowing up, and [0:11:00] I could care less. You know, I was just in Philadelphia trying to make my way. I mean, in Los Angeles trying to make my way. And eventually I did some really ugly things, that I describe in my book, to survive. I didn’t have any money and so I tried to turn tricks. And eventually I got a guy, like, my neighbor. Literally, I was homeless at the time. I mean, like, for one day. Not like, homeless, but one day. I didn’t know where I really fit in. And that was the day I went and applied for a job at The Pink Pussycat, which was strip club. But I wasn’t -- I was gonna be a cocktail waitress, and so I was. And it was sort of like the bunny clubs in a sense, but we were the pussycats, you know. So, we had, like, a feather boa around our neck and it draped down and then, like a tail. And [0:12:00] when men would -- so anyways, so that’s where I worked. I was only concerned about my own, you know, survival. So, I had nothing to do with the Black Panther Party 7 �at that time. Eventually, I was living in an area called Westwood, which is sort of a UCLA -- well, it’s the hub of where UCLA is. It is very well-to-do, upscale. And I moved in there... I lost the train of thought again. I’m sorry. JJ: (inaudible) EB: I’m really getting sleepy. I don’t know what to tell ya. I just am really punchy, sleepy. JJ: Okay. EB: I know you don’t wanna stop because you had the opportunity to do this. I’m willing to get up early in the morning, get dressed early, but right this moment I can’t even tell you where I was going with that. JJ: Okay. I don’t want to-- EB: Huh? JJ: Yeah, if you can’t... (break in audio) JJ: (inaudible) EB: Yeah, I left Philadelphia because I thought that Philadelphia was a problem in my life. In other words, I decided that the issues of -- the problems of life existed all in Philadelphia. EB: There was [00:13:00] the absence of my father and the knowledge that he was in world but I didn’t know him. And there was this love affair I had with this Jewish boy who caused me to leave Temple University. But then I was there a couple more years. And there was nothing in Philadelphia that made sense to me. All of my history there was depressing for me. But the real deal, you know, as one 8 �finds out later in life, was really my mother. But that’s another conversation. JJ: Bet. But you said somethin’ about he told you to duck or somethin’. EB: Yeah, well that -- well I told you you had to pick up the story from where we wanted. I’m not gonna -- that is not the key story of my life. Okay? JJ: Okay. EB: It’s just a story that defines the -- JJ: I’m sorry. EB: -- racism as I experienced it because I had an illusion about myself, as most Black people do in America. We’re always, as Du Bois says, “We live a dual reality.” We have to live in the white world and we have to live in the Black world, and the white world is the dominant world culturally, economically, socially, politically, in any way. So, we have to either become white [00:14:00] and adapt to being white, or we have to realize that we are living in an inferior parallel universe. And so, at the time, I thought I was, you know, above other Black people. I wasn’t really that Black, and I had this nice little Jewish boyfriend, and so forth. And that was when I was 16, but moving ahead, I ran into him again at Temple University, and that caused me to leave school but that didn’t cause me to leave Philadelphia. There were a number of reasons, as I started to say, and those reasons had to do with my self-imposed idea that Philadelphia was, in and of itself, a problem. The poverty that I grew up with, I detested. I detested myself, and thinking about myself as a person who, I wasn’t sure whether I was Black or white, I -- there wasn’t anything in my life, about me, that I liked. Nothing, zero, and I thought it was Philadelphia. So, if I left Philadelphia, I could 9 �take on a new life [00:15:00] and a new persona. And the place farthest away, that I knew how to get to and had some information about, was Los Angeles. So, I just arbitrarily quit my job one day and I had 300 dollars in a savings account or something, which I thought was a lot of money. After I bought a ticket, it weren’t JJ: What kind of work were you doing? EB: I was working at the Philadelphia Electric Company or something, as a clerk. You know, nothing. I was drifting. My life was not mine. I did not have an identity. I didn’t have a sense of myself, and what I did have a sense of, I hated. And so, I couldn’t get out of me, you know. So, if you can just run and not look in the mirror, and that’s how I felt, you know, that I was not happy with the person that I was. And I really didn’t even know who I was in terms of anything. I was completely confused about myself and, more importantly, I didn’t wanna be me. [00:16:00] But I didn’t have an idea of who I did wanna be, so I just adapted it, adopted other people’s things and adapted to whatever there was out there. So, I didn’t have a plan. I didn’t have anything. And of course, I had a family that, you know, sort of my whole life lead to that. I didn’t have a place to be. I didn’t fit in with the Blacks, as I talked about, I didn’t fit in with the whites, and I didn’t like either one anyway. And I didn’t like me, so really, it was running from me to Los Angeles. And I thought I could sort of shed whatever I was and somehow magically become some new person that I would like, or even -- I couldn’t imagine how could like themselves. I mean, you have no idea as to the level of self-hatred that I lived under for the first 25 years of my life, or less, little less. 10 �And when I got to Los Angeles, I just went there on a lark. I got a hotel room, I had no money, and then it occurred to me after about a week -- and I --[00:17:00] the first or second night, I met some old guy and he offered me some money. And I gave him the sex, he didn’t give me the money, right? (laughter) EB: And then he set me up with somebody else and it was the same kind of deal it was this -- (inaudible) Actually, I talk about this in my book. When I look back on it, I don’t even know who that person was, and I feel so sorry for her, meaning me. I was so vulnerable because I had nothing of myself that mattered, you know. So, when I, you know, I just drifted around and I had no money at all. And eventually, I got a job selling books door-to-door, and then I moved in with these girls into this house. And we were kinda frivolous, we were young, and we just spent the money on drinking and carrying on. I didn’t even know them, we just worked together in this crazy place which eventually became part of [00:18:00] a cult. I can’t remember the guy’s name or not, if I could think of it right now, I’d tell ya. But anyway, it became some sort of a new-age thing that people were doing at the time and they were, you know... But this sales piece was out of that, I mean, in other words he was really just selling an idea then. But anyway, so, in the course of things, I ran into this little hippie guy who’s on acid every day. But he gave me a place to live because we were kicked out of that house, and I didn’t have any money, and have any place to live, and I didn’t have a job. And he suggested I work at this place called The Pink Pussycat, just because he was a person that just hung out in the world. He was a street guy for (inaudible) oneroom apartment. And he was always on -- either smoking weed or whatever. 11 �And he took me down -- I didn’t even have an ID and I didn’t have an address. So, when I went for this job, it really was a reflection of who I was. I didn’t exist, really, you know, and that’s how I felt about myself. [00:19:00] I didn’t exist. I was, like, watching a movie and I wasn’t sure who I was in the movie. Or I wasn’t even in the movie, it was a movie of other things. And the horror of that is, when left alone, I didn’t have a movie. Do you know what I mean? In other words -So, I realize this is not a psychological journey, but it is a part of what motivates you to do things. And so, I wasn’t motivated, I was just drifting. And so, I landed in this job at The Pink Pussycat, and because I was the only black there, I was sorta popular. And I wasn’t too black if you know what I mean, like Obama’s not too black. And so, I went to The Pink Pussycat and within a couple of weeks I met this very rich white man, older man. He had come into the club with Frank Sinatra. The place had become very, very popular. And I was a cocktail waitress in false everything and, you know, sucked up this, and pushed out that, and, you know, everything, high heels, and just, you know, one step from being a ho. (laughter) EB: Well, maybe not even one step, but anyway. [00:20:00] And so, this guy, who was 55 and I was 22, said -- They took me to a party at Frank Sinatra’s house because, as I said, I was drifting. Okay, I’m going to a party at Frank Sinatra’s house, yeah. (laughs) And I thought they were taking me there as sort or like a prize, and I’d get maybe a 500-dollar tip. ’Cause we made a lot of money in the club, right. Even then, it was a lot of money. It’d be a lot of money today, almost, a 500-dollar tip. But it wasn’t something we couldn’t imagine, you know. A 100- 12 �dollar tip was pretty common, but 500... So, I figure I’m gonna make 500, 1000 bucks by just showing up and taking off my little coat, and there I’d have the little Pink Pussycat outfit on. But as it turned out, it wasn’t a big party. It was just this guy, and Frank Sinatra, and this guy named Jack Entratter, who was owner of the Sands Hotel, which was part of that whole mafia chain of hotels in Las Vegas. [00:21:00] So, this guy introduces himself, his name was Jay Kennedy and there’s been a lot of controversy about this, but I don’t feel anything -- I was a 22-year-old girl who met this extremely rich man who knew everything, and the first thing he started talking about was the march on Washington. I was like, “Well, why is he telling me about this? What has this to do with me? I don’t have anything to do with these negros and their issues of civil rights.” (laughter) And the fires of Watts were burning all around while I was saying all this. Can we stop for a minute? ’Cause I just need to... (break in audio) EB: So, when I met this guy, the first thing he talked about at this party where there was nobody, but I was like the party for him, I guess. But since I had done so much other stuff in my life at that point, I didn’t see anything wrong with it, but I knew I had to get the money first. (laughter) Or, as they say, get the money upfront. So, I said to this -- he’s telling me [00:22:00] about the march on Washington and I’m thinking, “Is this Frank Sinatra’s house?” I mean, it’s like, we’re in Bel Air, Beverly Hills, whatever. And I’m like, did I just not have a place to live two weeks ago. And so, around four o’clock in the morning, he’s still talking, and I’m really sort of half listening. But I’m thinking, “Well what do I do 13 �now? How do I get out of this house, or how do we get to the money? Whatever it is we’re getting ready to do.” And he says maybe I wanted to stay, and that he had a suite in the house, in Frank’s house, and this is his good friend, and how I could stay in the bedroom. He would sleep in the living room. And I was thinking, “Somebody has a house with a suite in it?” You know? (laughter) Wasn’t thinking about just sleeping, I was thinking about... And it was so incredible. And the next morning this maid came with this orange juice and, you know, and coffee [came out?]. And I had on my -- I had a robe on, they gave me a robe. He gave me a robe. So, I had to put my Pink Pussycat [00:23:00] outfit on to go back home in. Which my little apartment I lived in. By then, I had an apartment because I was making so much money, I could even afford an apartment. And I had moved out from [Bruce?] I’m pretty sure. And they had a chauffeur, a guy named George, who actually became sort of a famous character in the life of Frank Sinatra, black guy, very handsome. And he took me home in this limo, right? And this guy, Jay, called me and took me out to the Beverly Hills Hotel, and we had like a bottle of champagne that probably cost, you know, somebody’s rent. You know what I’m saying? That kind of thing. And some caviar, and he had some violins, and I was like -- this was a universe I had no knowledge of. But it’s not hard to fall into, you know? (laughs) It’s not hard to eat well. So, and I certainly had no class attitudes or anything else about any of this. As a matter of fact, I would have drifted toward it because I had been, [00:24:00] you know, brought up in this universe of ballet and going to these white schools with all these rich white people and so forth. And after that, 14 �ultimately, I became his regular concubine, one could say. I was his lover. He was married and he lived in New York. And so, he would come and then he would set me up in a place, and then I left The Pink Pussycat after a while. And all he did was talk to me about Marxism, Leninism, and so forth and so on, and none of this made sense to me. What made sense to me was that I was valued somewhere in the world, in a world that I had no sense of myself as a person of value. And it was listening to him over those next two years that made me conscious of political differences, social class, race. He embraced me as a black woman, which I didn’t even do. And it's so funny because people say -- there’s a thing about him saying, [00:25:00] “Oh he might have been a CIA Agent.” And there’s people that have denounced me because I talk openly about this relationship. But it was transitional, and it was transformative in my life because I felt protected enough to examine myself and admit that I hated being black, but I didn’t necessarily want to be white. I didn’t like anything about myself, and it was he who sort of was a guide to those next two years and sort of -- But in guiding me and talking to me, I absolutely had to cling to him. And when I realized that we weren’t going to get married, that changed things. ’Cause, you know, when you’re young you think, “Oh yeah, this guy’s gonna leave his wife for me.” (laughter) You know, and you really think that. But the other thing is that, during the course of his being away, I met a black woman in the building I lived in, in Westwood, and she had an afro. And this is, we can say, a year and a half after the Watts uprising. Because I’m now -- I arrived just before that and I met this man during that period. [00:26:00] And so, she heard -- I had a piano and I was 15 �singing. I write songs. By that time, I had written, like, 500 songs. All of them about love and really confused things. And I was playing the piano and singing, and she asked me if it were me that she heard up in, you know, singing. And the first thing she said to me is, “How you doin’ sister?” And I’m thinking, “To whom (laughter) is she speaking? I am not anybody’s sister. Certainly not your sister.” Not in any meaning -- I understood her meaning but I didn’t care. So, I said, “Yes.” And she said, “Do you play piano?” I said, “Of course.” And she said, “Could you teach piano to some kids that I have a program in Watts?” I said, “Sure.” I had nothing else to do, I was this kept woman. Right? So, (laughs) I had this thing on called a fall. This is like a hairpiece and you slick your hair back and then you can slick this on like a comb. And then the hair -- so you don’t have to really worry about your hair. [00:27:00] You can slick it on and then... So, I had this hair, (laughter) you know, it was the ’60s, and I had these long eyelashes from the Pink Pussycat period. Right? And I remember I had this sundress on, I can remember it cost 200 dollars. This is 1966, 7? And some sandals, and I just remember how I looked, and I went down to Watts with her. (laughter) Into the Jordan Downs Housing Project. And when I got there, this was another transformative moment, first, it was like where I used to live in the, what was it called? Not Richard Allen, I can’t remember. All of a sudden, I can’t remember. But anyway, when I moved out of the first place I knew of that I lived in North Philadelphia, which was a very rough area, and we moved to the project. JJ: To Germantown? EB: Well, later we moved to Germantown, but in that first year we lived in the James 16 �Weldon Johnson Homes. (laughter) They always name these [buildings?] the Black -- the historic [00:28:00] Black figures. James Weldon Johnson, and we had moved up by getting into public housing. So, but this place was laid out like the place I had lived in, in the Jordan Downs Projects. And because it was sort of flat and spread out as opposed to high-rise, that kind of thing, and it was twostory. And so, the feeling of that reminded me of who I was because, at this point, I was this girl with these eyelashes, and this hair, and this kept -- this man. Right? And I was just gonna maybe do some charity work, or whatever I thought I was doing in the illusion -- in the imagery I had painted of myself for that day. And so, when I got down to the Jordan Downs Project, I was thrown back into my history in the hood where life was really hard. And then she opened the door to this project -- her apartment she had rented for this program, which was, you know, some child development program or whatever. [00:29:00] And I walked in there and there were all these little girls, all these little black girls in there. And they were just these little, sweet girls. Seven, eight, nine years old, and looking pretty unkept and unkempt. And she had nothing in there, like a few chairs, and then she had this bookshelf. And the only book on it was, I could just remember was called Yes I Can by Sammy Davis Jr., and I thought, “What a stupid fucking book that is.” And I knew who Sammy Davis Jr. was because I’m living with a man who’s Frank Sinatra’s best friend. Okay? And I mean, literally, if you were to talk to Dean and Sinatra today, or one of them, they would tell ya that this guy was his best friend. So, I’m looking at this book so I have all these reactions to it. And like, these little girls, who have nothing, you wanna have them look at 17 �Sammy Davis’s stupid ass book called Yes I Can. You know, like, if I really believe in myself, Oprah Winfrey, you know what I’m saying? (laughs) America’s a great place if you really try [00:30:00] hard and you really believe in yourself. And I looked at them and I kept saying -- and they were, like, calling me Ms. Brown and I was thinking, “You don’t need piano lessons. You need a fucking life. I know ’cause I’ve been you. No, wait a minute, I am you.” And it killed me. It was so powerful a moment in my life that, you see now even, I am moved by it because I was so ashamed that I had left them, and I was so ashamed that I couldn’t help them. And that I wanted to go back to my little world with Jay Kennedy, and Piper-Heidsieck champagne, and caviar, and a life in France or somewhere where we wanna live and be away from the regular things. And I wouldn’t have to worry about these little girls in the world I would be living in. Right? But I couldn’t, and I could not -- I said to my friend, this girl, [Beverly?], that lived in the building, I said, “I can’t do this. I can’t teach these girls. I have nothing to offer them.” [00:31:00] But I did go back, and that was the beginning of my, what the Chinese call [fanshen?], you know, what Christians might be calling born again. It was a consciousness raising moment that was so incredible. So, I had to tell Jay Kennedy, “Look, we need to get married, like, right now. I need to be in France. I cannot be in America. I can’t look at any of this anymore. And if I can’t get married to you, I don’t ever want to talk to you anymore because I have something else I have to do.” And so, I just left him and everything, and then I had to get a job, which wasn’t easy. And I went back to Jordan Downs and taught these girls for a while and... But as a result, I became 18 �immersed in the rising Black movement, and I became Black, you know. And I took off my fall, you know? (laughs) And I curled my hair a little bit, and [00:32:00] I started going down to a place called the Black Congress, that Beverly had told me about. And it was a meeting place after the Watts uprising, everybody was Black, and everybody’s running around, you know. And so, all the various organizations that were arising, or that were coming into being, but everything from the Welfare Rights Organization to Karenga’s US Organization. All of those were in this building and they had formed some sort of a coalition, but it wasn’t really a coalition because Karenga was running ’cause everybody was sort of afraid of him because he looked militant. (laughs) And so, I sort of found my way there because I could read and write, you know, that put me in a new category among the -- in the hood. And so, I did a lot of writing, and then I ran into these people from the Black Student Alliance and I became a part of that, even though I wasn’t a student. I got a job at UCLA at one point, so that kind of put me in UCLA. But mostly what I did was steal [00:33:00] stuff from there for the Black Student Alliance, and I relied on my skills from the hood, so I could resurrect some of that, right? Because I did come from there. And so, that was a big moment, we can say 1967 or so, and somewhere in there we heard about this Huey Newton getting shot. This was a distant, you know, sound. We didn’t really have very much -- nobody really knew much about this in October of ’67 when Huey was shot. But one thing I knew, I didn’t like Karenga because they were all into this super nationalistic stuff. And so, I had one of these guys say to me, you know, one of Karenga’s people ’cause I would see them ’cause I was 19 �there, like, volunteering. I was just immersed in Black life. And I had this guy say to me, I was wearing a miniskirt because I had plenty of them, and he said, [00:34:00] “Sistas don’t wear miniskirts. That’s what the white girls wear.” Something like that. So now, oh well now you want to call back the girl that grew up on 21st and [York?], you don’t see my face cut. ’Cause remember, while I did go up outta the subway on one end and was white, I was living in the hood and I was one of the baddest bitches there. So, because, I wasn’t gonna get hurt, so I had to be the most aggressive, the toughest, and so forth and so on. And so, whatever my reality was, I was certainly able to recall my skills from the street. And I said, “Well you know, when a brotha buys my clothes, then he can tell me what to do.” So, I always had a conflict with them, okay? And so, while we were there, one of these nights we had this meeting, and I was now on the council that the Black Congress -- I was a member of the Black Congress representing the Black Student Alliance, which was really pretty funny, when one thinks about it. And Karenga’s sitting there looking like, you know, some offshoot Buddha or something, and with [00:35:00] that high-pitched voice, and that effeminate air. But anyway, and in comes this guy and he says he’s from the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense. And he’s got on this black leather, and he wants to talk about Huey Newton. He wants to appeal to the congressmembers, ’cause we’re at about, you know, 20 some organizations that were represented, to get support for the trial of Huey P. Newton. And Karenga’s like, “We don’t have time to talk about that. You’re not on the agenda brother.” And this and that, and that’s how he always talked, like this. His little high-pitched, little effeminate air. And there 20 �was a guy there named Crook, Brother Crook. And he was with -- I don’t know if he was with sn-- Oh, he had something called Community Alert Patrol, and they would follow the police, and take pictures, and stuff like this, right? And eventually he became a member of SNCC, but Crook was like my partner in that group. And he was like, “Well we want to hear what this brother has to say.” So, he said, “Well let’s vote on it [00:36:00] and have applicant consensus.” (laughter) He was so stupid. And so, his theory was that, unless we had a 100 percent vote, then we couldn’t go forward. So, everybody voted to hear what this guy had to say except him, so he said we can’t do it. We’re like, “You’re overruled.” And nobody had ever done this to him before, at least within the short life of the Black Congress. So, this guy [Earl?] came and talked about Huey Newton, and how he had offed a pig, or he was charged, you know, and these were words nobody had ever heard before. Not even these militant nationalists, right? ’Cause they were all about, you know, Black cultural, you know, something back to Africa. The Africa that they had designed, by the way, from the American point of view. So, we were all just stunned by this whole thing. Black guys with these guns, everybody had a gun, but [00:37:00] nobody was using a gun. (laughs) So, this guy was something else and we all -- so, I started talking to him and... So, bit by bit, I ran into a few of these people, and I had this friend named [Sandra Scott?], she was in the Black Student Alliance. And she was helping me to read things, you know, reading Wretched of the Earth, which was the Bible of that time. And reading and all this stuff, I was just, like, bombarded now with consciousness, all of this was opening up. You know, 21 �it’s like I couldn’t stop learning and absorbing things. And so, eventually we ran into -- I ran into Eldridge Cleaver some kinda way, and one of these, you know, movement parties was emerging and he coming -- he was this figure that was truly bigger than life. Eldridge was like six-five or something, was very handsome. And so, it was such a big moment, you know, we couldn’t imagine such a thing. Seeing these people and these guys were all so, you know, so something. I don’t know. They were [00:38:00] such men, you know. And I began to write songs about black men, for which I was soundly criticized by a lot of feminists, by the way. So-called feminists. But at the time, all of this was swirling around, and somewhere in the middle of this, Bunchy Carter appears. And we’re all having some sort of poetry reading. You know, like, now they have this slam, everybody’s talkin’ about the man, everybody talking, right? Just talk, talk, talk, talk. And in comes, into this room that the Black Congress had this big event, like one of these big community events, and people get up and say their poems. And I got up and said one too about how the men were treating women. But anyway, Bunchy Carter appears in this room with, like, 20 guys, right? From the street. And they’re all, you know, they got their hats on ace-deuce, and they’re all strapped. All of ’em. And they line the room. Everybody’s like, “Ooh.” And Bunchy says, “Well I come to say that we have just formed the Black Panther Party [00:39:00] Southern California chapter.” And he says -- and then he has somebody to unfurl the Huey Newton famous poster in the chair, and he says, “And from this point forward, everybody will be putting this picture up. Because Huey did what you niggas is thinkin’ about, talkin’ about doin’. He 22 �challenged the police.” You know, and he said, “And that’s what we gonna do. We here to say that the pig can no longer come through this community and hurt us and hurt our people.” And that, “Because if the pig comes here tonight, what would we do brother?” Guy on the wall said, “We would put his dick in the dirt.” I said, “Oh Lord what is going on here?” (Laughter) It was another pivotal moment because you could not now unknow what you just saw or heard. You could now say -- you can write your little articles and you can your little dashiki on, and you can walk around her talkin’ this shit, but now you know something new has happened. And everybody in LA knew it. Everybody was terrified, [00:40:00] from the police to the Black militants. Because now, a line had been drawn. A reality had been presented. We were now engaged in something different. We’re challenging the government directly. This was not about a program, this was about a challenge to the fundamental structure in America, and we all got it, and we got it that night. And that word was like wildfire, that there was a Black Panther Party chapter. The Black Student Alliance people became afraid. I mean, everybody was, like, shaking. Not because we’re afraid of the Panthers, but we were now afraid, or people were afraid, that we would have to come up to do something, right? So, when I met this Eldrige Cleaver and, you know, I was just madly in love with him. He was just absolutely this. And I spent a night with him, and so this was like, “okay.” And within a week or so later, he was -- it was after Martin Luther King was killed. That was [00:41:00] before, when I was with him, and after Martin Luther King was killed, two days later, there was an incident with Eldridge and Bobby Hutton. And Bobby Hutton, who was a young member 23 �of the Black Panther Party, 17 years old, was killed by police and Eldridge was wounded. And so, I walked into the Black Panther office, like, about the next day. And it was a surrender, it wasn’t just, “Oh, I’m joining.” It was a surrender. It was, “Okay, this is it. We’re down now.” And it’s no more turning back, and there’s no more pretending that I don’t understand because of all that I learned from Jay, and all that I learned in the middle, and all the consciousness that I now had. There is no unknowing, there’s no pretending. This is the way it is. We gon-- either I’m gonna throw down with this, or I’m gonna live a fake life for the rest of my life. And I cannot live that ’cause I did that for 20 some years. So, this is who I had to be, and this is who I needed to be. So, when I joined the Black Panther Party, it wasn’t, you know, just joining some little organization. It was surrendering my life, [00:42:00] but not in any sad way, but in a meaningful way. And saying, “Okay. This is who I am, and I surrender to this legacy, or this potential, or this life. And I will dedicate myself to it from this point forward.” And that’s what I did, you know, for the next 10 years. You know, watching a lot of my friends, of course, be killed and being a little shocked but sort of -- we all kind of knew that this was what we signed up for, and it was not going to be, you know, I’m gonna have a little job and do this on the side, and this gonna be my volunteer work or... No this was my life. I was dedicating myself to eliminating the government that had so oppressed our people, and other people, and so forth and so on. And so, that was the journey to the Black Panther Party. JJ: So, you said some people got killed. Some of your friends. EB: [00:43:00] Yeah, a lot of people were killed. 24 �JJ: Who were some of them? EB: Well, in the beginning, you know, in my experience in the Black Panther Party, of course, you know, Bunchy Carter was the organizer of the Southern California chapter. And, as we would learn, we had a chapter that was so -- the LAPD was so vicious that the Chicago PD looked up to them. (laughter) And so, at once we had -- it was a strange situation in Los Angeles because we had, you know, this whole Hollywood Universe with a lot of money, so we had probably -- eventually we would have more money than most chapters, just because we were in the Hollywood area. But at the same time, we had the most vicious police department, so we were always getting arrested, stopped, what have you. And in the beginning, when I started out working in the party, I’m not sure we had the newspaper regularly out by then. Well, maybe we had a little bit of a newspaper, [00:44:00] but it wasn’t the way it -- soon it became a very big part of the party’s - it was a big information instrument, obviously. And so, I’m trying to remember, eventually I was working very, very hard, and, you know, we were going to political education classes. And then we moved out of the Black Congress. We were in the Black Congress at some point. We had an office there, but the Karenga piece was getting too heavy, and we got an office in on Central Avenue, 41st and Central Avenue. So, I spent time there cleaning, like everybody. Tryin’ to figure out how we’d get equipment. You know, we basically were tryin’ to start up, we can say, and then going to classes. And then, eventually, at some point, I can’t recall, but I did have a job at the beginning. I had a small job in a poverty program. And there was a moment when I just went crazy. I had some sort of a 25 �total meltdown because it was like, now this was too much too soon or [00:45:00] something and it was all converging. And I had to go and see a therapist, and I went crazy, literally. And this woman gave me Thorazine. And I said, “I can’t be in the Black Panther Party. I know that I’m really scared. And I’m not gonna be in the Black Panther Party. But if I’m not in the Black Panther Party, I’m not gonna be in anything.” And so therefore, what do I do? I’m back to being the person that I hated being. And on one hand I was afraid, and I knew a lot of these people. Franco, and lil’ Tommy Lewis, and all these people that were joining the Black Panther Party in Southern California. They’re pretty, pretty panty, where all these people from the streets, you know, the gang members, the [Slawsons?] who had transformed themselves because of Bunchy. And, John Huggins, and Ericka Huggins and the -- and Ericka was the captain of the women, and so she was my leader, at the time. And she would say, “We might have to learn how to sleep with the enemy to get information [00:46:00] one day, or slit his throat the next.” And I was like, “Really?” (laughter) We had to do all that? I was terrified. And so, at some point, we can say in July or something, that had been, like, February or April, and by July I was afraid. Not afraid of anything that had happened, but, like, the potential. That this wasn’t really me, that I was really faking and that, just like my whole life, this was not real, and I hated myself. So, I spun out of control. And so, this doctor, instead of saying, you know, “What’s going on?” and... She gave me Thorazine, and Thorazine is a drug that is, uh, I mean, it’s for, I don’t know. I don’t know what it’s for. It’s supposed to calm you down, I guess. But they give it to elephants or something. 26 �(laughter) I mean, seriously, I was thinking -- I weighed 105 pounds and I was taking 100 milligrams of Thorazine a day. So, I moved to the Watts office of this poverty program, where nobody wanted to go, on 103rd Street. Which I could never get to, because I was on Thorazine, and so I would fall asleep on the bus all the time. And at some point, [00:47:00] they had this alleged program, of course after Watts, you know, everybody was offering poverty program money to every pimp, dope deal -- dope boy, well there weren’t that many dope boys, but you know what I mean. Everybody from the street that wanted to go in and walk in and get a program, they could get one, right? So, this program was called the Watts Happening Coffee House, and it had been transformed from -- it was burnt down -- Diamond Jim’s Furniture Store had been burnt down (laughter) and they had developed this program, but there was no real program there. It was just some money being handed off to this guy, was a leader of a gang in Watts, right? (laughter) It was like, “Here’s some money, please don’t kill us.” Right? So, ’cause that’s all the poverty program was and, but I loved it because I could fall asleep on Thorazine. I didn’t have to -- I was the only person there who knew how to type, read, or write, you know? So, I kept the books, so you had like 50 people on the payroll and there were only, like, 5 people there, you know? (laughter) So, I was the person that did all the paperwork, in between nodding out, right? And some point, John Huggins came down there to [00:48:00] Watts because he was looking for an office, another branch office for the Black Panther Party. And he came in there and he said, “Elaine, how you doin’? We miss you.” And I was like, “Oh no, we don’t miss me.” I couldn’t look at him, you know? 27 �You know, no, no. And he said, “What are you taking?” And I was thinking, “How did he know I was taking...?” (laughter) I’s sitting there nodding like somebody on heroin, right? But in the meantime, there was a, like, little bit of programming. So, on a Sunday they would have this sort of a jazz thing at the Watts Happening Coffee House, and there was a guy there Horace Tapscott. He had a band called the, it was, like, the Arkestra. The venue was very Africancentered and so forth, and they let me play songs with them. And so, I had this, like, little singing career. Not really, but, you know, singing this kind of, like, coffee house thing and... So, I say all that to say that that was what I was doing in between, and [00:49:00] Horace would take me back and forth. He started taking me back and forth home so I wouldn’t have to take all these buses and get lost, where I take hours to get anywhere (laughter) because I would fall asleep all the time. And then John came, and John said, “Elaine you gotta stop.” I said, “Oh, I can’t go back.” And he said, “Well, why don’t you get off of whatever you’re taking.” And I told him eventually. And he came to see me almost every day. “How you doin’ today?” And he said, “Why don’t you try to take three pills instead of four?” And I was terrified because I was so addicted to this stuff, at this point. And I wasn’t going to any therap-- I was just taking Thorazine now, you know? And she gave me an open-ended prescription, so I could just get it. Isn’t that weird, when you think about it? And I took that Thorazine, and I stopped taking four, I took three. And I was, like, “Wow, made through the day.” Right? And meantime my mother had moved to Los Angeles, which was just really the nemesis of my life, but that’s another conversation. And so [00:50:00] 28 �I’d be nodding out talking to her, whatever it was, and here just kinda twirling around. And then in August, Horace Tapscott said to me, “Did you hear about what happened earlier today at the corner of Mont Clair and Adams?” As we like to say now. And I said, “No.” And he said, “You know, three members of the Black Panther Party were killed by the police on that corner.” And he mentioned one of them, and he was Tommy Lewis, who was 17 years old. And he was like Ericka and John’s little son, even though there wasn’t that much difference in the ages. And we all loved little Tommy Lewis, and he was like Bobby Hutton. Just a little, fierce street boy, terrible, you know, tough, and he had been shot. And then there was this guy, Steve Bartholomew, 21 years old, and they had shot his head off his shoulders, right there in front of everybody on the corner of Adams and Mont Clair. And I was like, “Oh! No this is too much. This is too much.” So, John said, “We need you. We need you.” And so, [00:51:00] the more he said it, the more I went down to two pills, and one pill, and then no pills and went back and, you know, rejoined the party and began to live with John, and Ericka, and a bunch of other people in this house on Century Boulevard, which was in, like, Inglewood or somewhere outside of Watts, South Central LA, whatever. And for me, as I think back about it, as I characterize it, it was Camelot, you know? It was working every day and, you know, living in this collective with these really wonderful comrades. And it didn’t matter what happened to us because now we were -- it was clear to me that I was okay with me, at this point, and what I was doing. And so, we sold papers or whatever we did, talked about opening another office, and, you know, recruiting people for the party, all of the things, whatever 29 �we did. It was just day-to-day, every [00:52:00] day, you know. Cleaning guns (laughs), going out and learning how to -- going out to the Mojave Desert. (laughter) (phone ringing) You want to turn your...? JJ: Yeah. EB: Who is calling -- (break in audio) EB: Bringing my book up last night to be signed. It’s, like, being taught in every school. JJ: But what’s the name of it, again? EB: A Taste of Power. JJ: Oh, A Taste of Power. EB: Yeah, yeah. So, that was in, we can say late August, so from that point forward, we all then enrolled, amazingly -- when I say we all was John Huggins, and Bunchy, and Geronimo Pratt, and myself enrolled in UCLA all for our different reasons, in this program called the high potential program. And of course, when we got there, John and I were doing the main work. I mean, Bunchy would just come through from time -- he just did it as a satisfaction for his parole requirements. (laughter) And Geronimo sort of drove him there all the time. He was sort of Bunchy’s driver and other stuff. And so, John Huggins and I [00:53:00] used to do all the whatever work. And we would try to organize around -- against the war, you know, blah blah blah. And we did all these different things, and, in the course of things, we tried to build up the Black Student Union, which had sort of come into being, but really wasn’t anything but 30 �worryin’ about, you know, what kind of music was being played in the cafeteria, what have you. And so, in the course of all of that, you know, you had... (knocking) Come on in. AARON DIXON: Okay. EB: We’re finishing up. AD: Oh, here y’all are. EB: We’re on camera. No, come on in Aaron please. How ya doin’? AD: Doin’ good. EB: How you doin’ this morning? AD: How you guys doin’? EB: I’m doin’ good. I’m doin’ good. AD: That’s good. [Bread?] up. EB: So, we gonna finish up -- You want to get me to some of the things -- JJ: Yeah. EB: -- about the Puerto Rican things. But anyway, so let’s --I’ve had emotional moments, though, here. AD: Oh really? EB: Yeah. Yeah, you know, when you think about, you know, you can write this stuff and then it’s on the page and you’re finished, and then you have to revisit some of the points of how did you get here, so... JJ: Uh-huh. EB: So, okay. So, where are we? JJ: [00:54:00] We were -- 31 �EB: I hope you have a good editor. JJ: Yeah, no. We had a -- we were talkin’ ’bout some of the work that was being done in LA. EB: Yeah, so there we were doing all of our little stuff with John and with Bunchy. Going back and forth to school a lot. And so, there came to be this moment when, toward the end of the year... Are you getting a shot of Aaron? JJ: Our friend that came in. (laughter) Okay. EB: And so, toward the end of the year, there was this big confrontation because -no actually it didn’t happen at the end of the year, but there was a lot of confrontation with the US Organization at that point, and a lot of conflict. And at the very end of the year, two incredible things happened on December 31st. One was that Bunchy announced -- and we had some event in, I don’t remember where it was, but it was an auditorium. I don’t know why we were in an auditorium. And Bunchy announced and brought all these [00:55:00] Latino guys up on stage, and they all had on the brown beret. And he said, “This is the Brown Berets, and we are in a --” I don’t know if the word coalition -- I don’t think we used the word coalition. But, “These are our partners. So, we are announcing today, that the Brown Berets and the Black Panthers, we are one and the same. We are here to off the pig.” And whatever else they said, right? And all of us were like, “What? Brown Berets?” And that literally was the first, I’m sure, first sort of formal announcement. And that was amazing how conscious Bunchy was about that. And we had been conscious of that just before that because, you know, the big drink of the street in those days was what 32 �they called a short dog of Gallo wine. And they would pour some of the red wine out and put in some lemon juice, shake it up, and they called it shake ’em up, and that’d make you sweat and get hot fast because the lemon -- I don’t know, whatever the interaction of those two things was. But anyway, so he [00:56:00] forbid everybody from drinking Gallo wine. Which was really -- people might think that’s nothing, but it was a big deal. JJ: (inaudible) Yeah. EB: All to support the United Farm Workers. And so, the Brown Beret thing was just a step up, you know, because this was a more -- this wasn’t a labor union, it was a revolutionary organization that was going to work in the East LA area, but be affiliated with the Black Panther Party as we thought of it at that time. And then, that same night, Bunchy announced, later on, that one of our other comrades, Franco Diggs, had been murdered in Long Beach, and been shot in the head three times. And then, we knew Franco, and we knew he was very, very paranoid and crazy, and Franco. When I first met Franco, and I describe this in my book, one of the first things he said, “Oh, you know sista,” he was from New York. “You so beautiful,” he said. “You know, I would kill two pigs for you.” (laughter) I was like, “Really?” [00:57:00] “What you think about that?” And he (inaudible). I was like, “Sounds great.” You know, what do you say, you know? (laughs) “Have you ever seen a pig shot with a .45 automatic sista?” I said to him, (laughter) “You know, let me think. Mm, no.” “Why if I was this -- if the pig was standin’ over there and I was to take my weapon, and I were to fire at him right now, his body would fall to at a 45 degree --” I was like, “What?” (laughter) 33 �And he polished his bullets, and he put a special mi-- he loaded his own bullets, you know, with gunpowder, and he put garlic, that’s what he told us. And then that -- even if he hit someone in the leg, this is what he told us, and I mean to this minute, I believe it’s true I don’t know, and that they would be poisoned. They would get lead poisoning. AD: Yeah. That was somethin’ we did. Yeah. (inaudible) thing. EB: Yeah. And so, when Franco was killed, that was a big statement because Franco was, like, invincible. [00:58:00] Franco was one of the baddest motherfuckers out there so -- no, but who kills Franco? And then, of course, two weeks later, John and Bunchy were killed by Karenga’s FBI agent members and himself at UCLA, and I was, of course, there. And it was the most probably traumatic part of my life in the Black Panther Party, or of my life period. Which I do describe in A Taste of Power. Matter of fact, I dedicate an entire chapter to that date, January 17, because it was such a powerful thing. Because here was this guy, John Huggins, who had saved my life, so he was more than just a comrade, and a hero, and a leader of the chapter, and very conscious, and very caring. And Bunchy was more than a guy that I just worshipped because he was just, he was everything including very beautiful, very smart, a poet, [00:59:00] and a solider, a revolutionary. And for these two men to get killed and for me to be right there, of course, I lived with survivor’s guilt for a long time. I would have it now, I guess, if I, you know, really thought about it, but it’s too late, you know, 40 some years later. So, they were murdered. John Huggins was shot in the back by one of Karenga’s members, who was -- that assassin, Claude Hubert 34 �“Chuchessa”, ends up in Guyana with Jim Jones. I mean, this is just, you know, talk about COINTELPRO and all that. I mean, this is not the Black Panther memory for some conspiracy theory. This is what happened, and -AD: We gotta leave ’cause of traffic. JJ: Okay. EB: So, anyway, we can, some day pick this up. You know, I have Skype, by the way. I just put that up with the camera. Do you know how to do that? JJ: Yeah, we can figure that out. [01:00:00] EB: Okay. All right, well... JJ: We have to -- we can always, you know, we’ll do a second version of this. EB: Okay. I’m willing and ready. JJ: (inaudible) All right. Thank you. Thank you. EB: All right. END OF VIDEO FILE 35 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e9df12dad7c23f4c2a0477479869cfb7.mp4 30c9521163426df544daf048e5f5a804 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Elaine Brown vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Elaine Brown, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 5/10/2013 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Brown_Elaine Title A name given to the resource Elaine Brown video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brown, Elaine Description An account of the resource Oral history of Elaine Brown, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 5/10/2013 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-05-10 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1a9b248a4801402c9f375965e80ae05a.jpg 4622073c082dc9a07718ab0a4102acf8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1980s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000153 Title A name given to the resource President and Mrs. Lubbers in football stadium press box Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brown, Mike Description An account of the resource President and Mrs. Lubbers in football stadium press box Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Lubbers, Arend D. Universities and colleges College presidents College administrators Sports Football Events Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1988 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ceb69d09fee84a4879e532ee14dd3a5e.jpg 81a86a04f3ef6a4a94b45f5a610a816c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1980s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000164 Title A name given to the resource Hank Meijer at dedication of Meijer Public Broadcasting Center Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brown, Mike Description An account of the resource Hank Meijer at dedication of the Meijer Public Broadcasting Center on Pew Campus. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Events Universities and colleges Events Television broadcasting Building Dedication to public use Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1988 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cd1c7cf156a94fad30178279c5286985.jpg 4521a97908b130c4b15086838280bc5b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. 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Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. 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Universities and colleges Transportation Facilities Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1982 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/117c09e371d640a6e91c52255237fd19.jpg 3485d1a428df8487c378a2dc67fda66d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1980s Campus Center Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000199 Title A name given to the resource Student getting off bus at Campus Center Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brown, Mike Description An account of the resource Student getting off bus at Campus Center. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Students Buses Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1982 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a9199a9bace35fa10c01446af607d434.mp4 c26ba0edd3d03af7762d370353edba3a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b849133647b41551c2c096ebbbe1babe.pdf 0b8e50048355df6f465bbb06974de33c PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Vietnam War Dick Brown 2:46:39 Introduction (00:51)            Dick was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in December 1946 and lived in Rockford. He graduated from Rockford High School in 1965. At that point in history, people were being drafted left and right. Dick didn‟t want to go to college and he decided to take a year off and „find himself‟. However, Uncle Sam found him first and he received his draft notice in January 1966. Growing up, his father worked in a factory, but the family lived on a farm north of Rockford. He grew up in a small town and had a small town attitude about life. Prior to being drafted, he did not pay much attention to the news or about what was going on in Vietnam. (02:54) At the dinner table, he remembers talks about the war and his father told his sister to “pay attention, your brother may have to go.” When he got his draft notice, he went and took his physical. They told him that he would most likely be drawn up in April. On his way to his sister's house for Sunday dinner, he passed a billboard for the United States Marine Corps, and the next day he went down to the recruiting office and enlisted. (05:01) He enlisted for two years. Marine Corps Boot Camp (06:07)        A couple weeks later, he went to Detroit and met up with other recruits that were all going to boot camp. While there, he was given another physical and had to perform five chin-ups and five push-ups. When Dick got to boot camp, he learned that when the draftees were inducted, they were all lined up and counted off. Every fifth man was sent to the Marine Corps. He went to San Diego for his training. They were flown on a commercial plane to San Diego, and then they were loaded onto busses. Once they got to the Depot, a seemingly seven foot tall Tasmanian devil boarded the bus and started screaming. They proceeded off the bus and stood on the yellow footprints outside. (08:44) They arrived around 7pm and it did not get dark for another hour after they arrived. The men were sent around getting gear, their first haircut and standing in lines. �               When he sat in the barber chair he was warned to tell the barber about any warts or moles on his head or else he would lose them. Dick had no warning about what to expect when he got there. The training was physically tough, but was much tougher mentally. Being screamed at was new to him and took some getting used too as did being swore at and called all sorts of names. (10:48) Later in boot camp, the second or third day, the whole platoon had to sit in a class and they learned what the Drill Instructors could and couldn‟t do to you. After wards, they were marched behind the same building they received the class and Dick was called forward and hit in the Adam‟s apple and choked. They had just done what the recruits were told that they couldn‟t do to them. He also called him every name they weren‟t supposed to call them. (12:12) Halfway through boot camp, Dick was ready to volunteer for Vietnam as long as he didn‟t have to finish boot camp. Dick was told to never volunteer for anything. One day they were all asked if anyone wanted to be a truck driver, Dick said that he did. He was then told to go get a wheel barrow and bring it back. When he did, the DI sat in it and told him to bring him around base. By the time he got through boot camp, he was learning what they wanted him to learn. Physically, the training was not that hard, especially because he played football and was in good shape going in. (14:52) Recruits are not allowed to address themselves as I or me, but must always speak in the third person. „This recruit would like to do this…‟ They had to swing over a pool of water with a rope, and some of the men would be shoved in by the DI before the rope got back to them. Using telephone poles, the platoon had work together to lift them above their heads while lying on their backs. (16:32) They learned about teamwork and how to use it to accomplish their missions. At first, Dick thought the training was just a form of torture, later he learned why they did all those things and that they made sense. Training lasted for eight weeks. Dick thinks that since it was shortened, the DI‟s were extra nasty. (18:28) Secondary School (18:52)       During their sixth week in boot camp, they all took aptitude tests and Dick was chosen to be a truck driver. One of the men sent to the training was from New York City and he had never driven anything before. He was later sent to a different school. (20:26) This training consisted of two weeks of covered tactical driving and a week of auto mechanics. He was at Camp Pendleton for this training. After his truck driving school, he was sent home on a thirty day leave. He went home in late July or early August 1966. When he came home, he was proud of himself. His grandfather fought in World War I, and his father fought in World War II. He was ready to do his part. (22:23) Most of his classmates from high school were in college. �                  When he came back from leave, he went to ITR (Infantry Training Regiment). During this training they had to crawl through a dust pit underneath barbed wire, while machine guns were being fired over their heads, they originally used live ammunition until someone panicked and stood up. After that they began to use blanks. (24:23) They also went through gas training. Each man was given a gas mask and shuffled into a gas house. Behind the gas house were buckets of water that each mask was washed in. A platoon was around 80 men, and about 20 Marines were brought in the gas chamber at one time. Dick was in the second group to go in, and he was not sure what was going on. When he got up there, he picked a good mask and checked it to see if it worked. Once in there, they were told to take their masks off and sing the Marine Corps Hymn. (26:22) They were taught how to cross an artillery field, and when Dick‟s squad was crossing, they discovered that the DI‟s had planted explosives randomly around the field and they played over loudspeakers the whistling sound of an incoming artillery shell. Each man had to take cover or else he was „killed‟ and had to be carried by the rest of the squad. (28:26) Almost through the course, the incoming sound was played and they heard behind them a horrible screaming. One Marine had dove in a crater to avoid the blast and landed right on a rattlesnake. After that, no one wanted to jump in the holes. Dick doesn‟t remember any additional marksmanship training while in ITR. Back in boot camp, Dick shot well because he grew up hunting and shooting. Before his qualifying day, he was shooting expert. Come Friday on qualifying day he only shot marksman. Each Marine was given a shooting badge and the ones that didn‟t qualify were given a badge with a spear on it and were called „spear chuckers‟. (31:04) Four of the five men that got that award were black, and because of political correctness, they could not do that today. They also did a twenty mile march in ITR. For some reason, they always put the big guys in the front. This caused the line behind them to run to catch up. It was over 90 degrees that day. (32:41) After the march, they were trucked back to base. One major difference from boot camp was the instructors did not yell and scream at you. Also, you don‟t call the NCO‟s sir because they are not officers. After boot camp, they are Marines and they are regarded as such. (34:15) For their last exercise, they were given a hill with a flag on top. The hill was surrounded by troops and they were sent around on patrols. Ten guys got to dress up as Viet Cong and they would try to infiltrate as high up the hill as they could and steal the flag. Since Dick was a truck driver, he was on the perimeter but never sent on patrols. One of the Viet Cong was captured and refused to cooperate. A Marine stepped forward and bashed him on the knee with his rifle. He then cooperated. They also never got to the flag. Back at truck driving school, Dick trained on 5 ton short box trucks. In the third week the Marine from New York washed out. �Vietnam (38:11)                 After ITR, Dick was sent to Vietnam. On his last weekend in the states, they had a „junk on the bunk‟ inspection. This is an inspection of all their gear laid out on their beds. Their skivvies (underwear) had to be dyed green. Dick rushed to find a washer and was not able to find a dryer for his freshly dyed skivvies, so he folded them up and put them on his bunk while they were still wet. The inspection officer was a captain and he noticed that they were a darker shade of green than the bunk next to his. He grabbed them and found that they were wet. He told Dick that that was unacceptable and that he was confined to base for the rest of the weekend. He was being sent to Vietnam on Monday. (40:15) Dick and several others were confined to base but their sergeant let them sneak out and Dick went into town and called home before he was shipped out. They took a civilian plane from LAX to Okinawa. A sergeant came up and told them that the wounded in Vietnam needed blood. Dick went right away to donate some blood. (42:25) They had no training in Okinawa; it was just about a two hour layover. From there they flew on a military plane to Chu Lai. On the way over, Dick learned that he was the only truck driver and all the other men were grunts. On the base, trucks came and got the men from the plane and Dick was left all alone. Some time later, another truck pulled up and yelled for anyone with the 7th Motor Transport. He jumped in and they took off. (44:25) When he got there, he was issued an M-14 rifle, canteens, pistol belt and magazines. At one time they were all given new M-16‟s to test fire on a rifle range made from a rice patty. The M-16 was like a .22, it would shoot real fast but then jam. Dick chose to keep his M-14, because it did not jam. After being issued his gear, he was assigned to A Company. (46:46) He was told that they operated during the day, because during the day they owned the roads, but at night they belonged to Charlie (Viet Cong). The next day, he was given a „run‟ down south. He got up at 5:30am and had to eat and perform his pre-inspection checks. They assigned a supply sergeant to go with him and he ran from the docks to the base running gear. In spots they could only drive 5 mph and in some spots they could go 10 mph. (49:21) One problem with the roads was that the dykes on the rice patties were only 3-4 feet wider than the truck; they also had sharp turns and steep hills that slowed down travel. After making six to seven runs, Dick wasn‟t sure if he could make another one. He was told that he needed to make one more. He made the final run and he was running late when he noticed a jeep coming up the narrow road. It was carrying the officer in charge of the base and either Dick had to back up a half mile or the jeep did. They pulled up to Dick and he was told to pull over so they could get by. He pulled over and let them by and threw it in reverse and the wheels just spun. (53:04) When he was trying to get his truck out, he heard rifle fire in the rice paddy near him. He jumped out of his truck with his rifle, flak jacket and helmet about ten minutes before dark. He knew that once it got dark he was dead. He jumped back in his truck and �           prayed that he not be killed. He thought he was dead, and he then crawled under his truck and planned to kill them before they killed him. (56:03) Suddenly, while lying under his truck, he heard a noise behind his truck and he turned to fire at a pair of legs when he heard “There‟s nobody here corporal.” Dick jumped out and was yelling “I‟m Here, I‟m Here!” They brought the camp truck and had a squad of Marines with them. The VC saw them coming and also saw how many there was and just disappeared. (58:32) Dick eventually made it back to base, an hour and a half after dark. This was his second day in Vietnam. When he came up to the base, he was challenged by the guard and asked the password. He didn‟t even know his name at that point and they pulled him out of the truck and had someone from his unit come down to identify him before they let him in. (1:00:43) After he got in to base, he had to conduct his post op inspections. He was then called to the captain‟s office and asked why he didn‟t just stay at the docks until morning and make the last run. He said that he didn‟t know he had that option. (1:02:02) The next morning, another driver attempted to use his truck but he found that the air tanks had not been drained and the vehicle had a flat tire. Dick was called into the captain‟s office and was yelled at some more. Instead of explaining how things worked in country, the captain just called him names, screamed at him and told him to get out of his office. (1:04:58) As a punishment, he was told to sit on a machine gun for the convoys coming in and out. At the end of the month, he had a guard duty that lasted for thirty days. After that he was assigned perimeter duty. He was then made a machine gunner. Dick met a man from Muskegon, named Mad Dog. (1:07:36) On a convoy, Dick was sitting on the machine gun and Mad Dog was driving. At the village, all the people came running to the truck and Dick started pointing the gun at the crowd. When some kids came up to the truck, Mad Dog started barking and howling and scared the people away. Mad Dog later explained that when he first got to Vietnam he was on a convoy and a group of kids came up to his vehicle. One of the kids in the crowd had a hand grenade with the pin pulled and the spoon taped down. He dropped it in the gas tank and everybody just drifted away. Moments later the grenade blew up the truck. (1:09:20) Dick never found out if the story was true or not, but it opened his eyes. Mad Dog took Dick under his wing and taught him what to do in country. When Mad Dog rotated home, Dick lost his mentor. After that, Dick requested a transfer, which was denied. (1:11:34) The unit moved to Da Nang, and then Dick requested another transfer. This was more of a trade, but Dick was sent to B Company. B Company (1:12:22)   In his new unit, Dick was told that A Company was a real spit and polish company, but B Company was different. His lieutenant told him he didn‟t care how he did his job, just as long as he did it and he didn‟t get him in trouble. (1:13:38) He was also told that B Company operates more in the field running supplies to troops and bringing troops to the helicopters. �                   Dick fit in perfect there, and he met some great guys. Three guys were sent once to pick up alcohol for the officers club. One of the pallets was broken open and a couple of cases of rum found its way into the truck. (1:15:39) When it was discovered that two cases were missing, they checked the trucks. One major chased after them in a jeep and tried to pull them over. Once they got back to base, they tore all three trucks apart that were there. They never found any booze; the other Marines took it and hid it before it was found. (1:17:36) The major tried to hold a summary court marshal on Dick for the incident and had him confined to base. Since no evidence was found, they let him go. (1:19:21) In September, intelligence in Phu Bai gathered that a division of NVA were west of Hue, but it was late in the season and a monsoon was about to begin, so they could not launch an operation. For five days straight, their base got about three mortars every night, at different times. They never knew where they were coming from. One night, one landed not too far from their bunker about twenty yards away. (1:21:28) The next night, one landed in a bunker with clerks, which caused Dick to have nightmares about it later. After that, they started filling sand bags to cover the bunkers. During his convoy operations, Dick never ran into enemy resistance except for the occasional sniper. The snipers that he ran into were mostly farmers, and Dick felt that he would have been in more danger from them if they were throwing pitchforks because they were terrible shots. (1:24:31) When he was off duty, they would play basketball. Sometimes at night the base would play movies, one movie that they watched was John Wayne‟s “The Sands of Iwo Jima”. (1:26:33) They also had an enlisted men‟s club in Chu Lai but they weren‟t allowed to go to it. Once he snuck off base and went there. At the club, they were given a coupon good for one beer. Dick saved up his coupons, and was able to get six. (1:28:30) At Da Nang, Dick had his first offer for marijuana and had to trade two cartons of cigarettes to the barber and the next day he would bring two cartons of marijuana-filled cigarettes. Dick never went through with it and neither did any other member of B Company. (1:30:27) Some tensions did exist between the white and black Marines. When the race riots happened in Detroit, Dick was not able to sit with his friend Corporal Peterson, who was black. Peterson told the other black guys to leave Dick alone because he was a real nice guy. Dick got up and went and sat down with a table of all white men. That night, Peterson came and told Dick about the race riots and what was going on. (1:33:55) Corporal Peterson also told Dick about a letter that he had received from his brother back home. In it he learned that tanks had been deployed to Detroit to help control the riots. Dick had never seen a black person in real life before going into the Marine Corps. During his time there, Dick could not tell which locals were good and which ones were bad. They seemed like nice people, but he stayed away from them. He was told stories �              about a base barber that led an attack of Viet Cong on an American military base and he was found dead in the wire. (1:36:15) At the base, they had a field mess hall. Most of his time was spent on small bases. Da Nang was a large air base, but Dick was on a smaller base that had its own patrols and its own mess hall, supply buildings, but did not have hot water. They did have some solar heated water. (1:38:21) When they built their base in Phu Bai, they erected all the tents and put pallets down all over and nailed plywood on top of the pallets to keep them off the ground. They then put their cots on the plywood. Dick also made an outhouse that had four holes. He claims it was one of the only fourhole outhouses in South Vietnam. Barrels were placed under the holes with fuel oil in them, and they were burnt everyday. For showers, they cleaned four 55-gallon drums and filled them with water and hung them up with a spigot on the bottom that would release the water. During the summer months the water got hot, but in the winter the water would get around 70 degrees. (1:40:45) He kept in communication back home by writing letters. They had a MARS (Military Auxiliary Radio System) Station, which gave him a chance to call home, using shortwave radio waves to LA and then a Ham operator back to Michigan. After talking he would have to say „Over‟ and his parents would have to do the same. He was only able to do it once, and he only talked about 4H. (1:42:44) Dick never told his family about what had happened to him, except in one letter when he told his father a little about what happened on his first experience with his truck. He was able to take R&R in August of 1967; he went to Yokohama, Japan. He had been told about prostitutes, but he never knew anything about them. He finally met one and it cost him $200 and later another $100. (1:46:40) At that point, he only had one month to go before getting to go home. When he arrived back in Vietnam he rejoined his company in Phu Bai. Then they started getting hit with mortars at night. They set up bunkers, machine guns and land mines around the base in anticipation of an attack. The signal was two short blasts that meant incoming rounds such as mortars. One long blast signaled the Marines that the VC was coming through the fence. (1:48:42) Their base was never attacked while he was there, but three months after he got home the base was assaulted. Dick never had to transport casualties on his trucks, and he was glad for it. Most of the guys that did have to move the wounded were emotional distressed afterwards. (1:50:40) The last week he was there, Dick was in a convoy going to Khe Sanh that moved along Highway 1. Before they hit the hills and mountains, they stopped the convoy and said that an ambush was up ahead. Dick was ordered to park and stay overnight. They moved around the position and dug foxholes and set-up machine gun pits. He remembers being scared because he wasn‟t in the infantry. (1:52:35) The next day, 18-20 VC had been killed in the ambush and stacked along the side of the road. When Dick drove through there, he tried to count them all. An Ontos was leading the convoy, which is like a tank but the turret does not swivel and had six 105mm recoil-less rifles. (1:54:52) �  Dick made it back to his base after the convoy, and a week later got on a C-130 and flew down to Da Nang. After that they got over the mountains near Da Nang and the plane hit a downdraft and dropped about a hundred yards. He then was loaded onto a civilian airplane and flown to Japan, Alaska and then to Edwards Air Force Base in California. (1:56:50) Home in the States (1:57:09)           When he arrived back in the states, he learned that he was not a hero but looked at as a criminal by the American public. He went through the base and he was told that if he could afford it to fly home commercially and in civilian clothes. Since he didn‟t have any money he had to fly in his uniform and on military stand-by. While walking through the airport, men would cross in front of him and separate their wives and children from him when they walked by. (1:58:45) Dick flew into Chicago and met the same awkward welcome. When he flew into Grand Rapids, he took a taxi and gave the driver twenty dollars to drive him home to Rockford. He got out of the taxi carrying his sixty to seventy pound sea bag and saw his family up in the yard. Because of the weight of the bag, it looked like he was limping and his family thought he had been shot. (2:01:08) When he went into the house, his sister, who was a junior at Western Michigan University and home on break, was on her way out heading to the peace march in Washington D.C. At that point, he was just on leave and he had to report back to Paris Island, South Carolina. He was about to be promoted to corporal. (2:03:03) The next day he had to pick up a group of female recruits and bring them to church. The platoon sergeant knew he was going the wrong way, so she pulled a cord that blew a horn behind his head. He thought it was his air-lines, so he stopped and checked them out. He continued going and it happened again. This happened again and the platoon sergeant jumped down and started yelling at him. He doesn‟t like being yelled at by women and he told her to get back into the truck. (2:07:05) The platoon sergeant told the Navy Chaplain about the incident and he started to yell at Dick, so he just got back into his truck and left. When he got back, shore patrol was waiting for him and escorted him to the office where an officer was writing promotion warrants, he held up Dick‟s promotion and tore it up. He only had four months left in service at that point. (2:09:08) Later, when Dick got home, everyone was against the war. He went to college and was older than all the other students. He tried to fit in as best he could. While there, he also tried out for the baseball team. During the tryouts, he met a guy who thought the war was about the Vietnamese rice. (2:11:03) Dick was attending Grand Rapids Junior College, and he spent two years there. He was seven credit hours short of getting his associates degree when a class scheduling problem caused him to leave and get a job with the railroad. (2:13:01) Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (2:14:30) �             In 1975, Dick thought it was horrible that America pulled out of Vietnam and felt that he failed his country. Around that time he started having nightmares. When he was in Florida, shortly after leaving the Marine Corps, he was at a hamburger stand and a carload of black people drove by. A kid yelled for them to get back on their side of town, and Dick was appalled that they would be treated like that. Just a few months prior to that he was protecting black Marines and they were protecting him. (2:17:27) He tried to hide his problems from his wife because he did not want the image that was in the news about Vietnam vets going crazy and killing people. He lied to his wife and told her that the problems he was having were from him being worried about losing his job at the railroad. It was a high paying job and he worked as a district repairman plumber. (2:21:24) Dick also had nightmares about the mortar attack in Phu Bai; in his dream they blew the one long horn that signaled that the VC were coming through the line. He manned a machine gun and mowed dozens of people down. The next morning during the body count, Dick learned that all the people were kids under the age of ten. His nightmares started when he first got back, but they got worse after Vietnam fell. Another nightmare that he had was on campus at college; he had to walk right by a peace demonstration led by Jane Fonda. (2:23:45) As he walked by, she pointed him out and yelled “There goes one of those killers now.” She told him she could see the blood on his hands, and when he looked down his hands were dripping with blood. Because of these nightmares, he was given a 30% disability rating from the VA. (2:25:30) These went on until September 21, 1988. At that time his brother-in-law wanted a deck put on his house so Dick went to help him. He began to get sick and went home. When he finally fell asleep he was back in Vietnam. The nightmare was about the time his truck got stuck on the dyke the first day he was in country. The nightmare details his first several days in country. When he woke up, he was on the other side of the house bashing his head into the bathroom door. His kids had woken up and were scared because of what was going on. They rushed him to the hospital, and the doctor told him that he was having hallucinations due to having a high temperature. (2:31:10) They couldn‟t find anything wrong with him, so they sent him home and told his wife to draw a bath of cold water and have him sit in it if it happened again. After having many tests done, the doctors could not find the cause of his hallucinations. At one appointment he told the nurse about his nightmares and she asked if they were all related to Vietnam. She knew right away what was wrong, because her husband was in the 1st Cavalry and beat her often because of his experience. The nurse asked Dick‟s wife if he had beaten her, but he had not. They next made an appointment with the Vietnam Veterans of America. (2:34:10) His counselor had stepped on a land mine and had an artificial leg. He wanted Dick to start from the beginning and had him tell his story. Dick went to him everyday for a week and then went twice a week and gradually less and less. He learned to deal with PTSD, but there is no cure. �      He thought that he was cured and everything was going well until Desert Shield/Desert Storm. Dick called down to the VA again and they told him they were starting a group and they wanted him to come in. (2:37:15) Dick has been in counseling for twenty four years and continues to go to this day. Conflicts on TV such as Desert Storm and again on 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan caused him to slide backwards in his treatment. (2:39:18) Right now, the VA has said that Vietnam vets no longer need treatment, because they want to work with Iraq and Afghanistan vets. Dick read in the VFW magazine that some people are more susceptible to PTSD and that they are developing a test to give people prior to their military service. The people who have a high probability of having problems won‟t be allowed to enlist. (2:42:40) When he first got home, it took him about eighteen months before he could really communicate with his family and friends. The area of Rockford had changed so much since he left, and everyone had a different view on the events in Vietnam. (2:44:52) Dick feels that his PTSD was triggered by the protests and the poor treatment that he received from the American public when he got home. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Brown, Richard "Dick" (Interview outline and video), 2013 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brown, Richard Description An account of the resource Dick was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in December 1946. He grew up in Rockford, Michigan and graduated from high school there in 1965. After facing a certainty of being drafted, he instead chose to enlist in the United States Marine Corps in 1966. After boot camp and ITR, he was made a truck driver and arrived in Vietnam with the 7th Motor Transport, which operated around Da Nang and Phu Bai in the northern part of South Vietnam. He served with two different companies carrying supplies to different units and bases, and toward the end of his tour went with a convoy into Khe Sanh. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Kentwood Historic Preservation Commission (Kentwood, Mich.) WKTV WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Marine Corps Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-07-25 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BrownD1489V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/86d9bb96ccc49571b945a51bf20dbb45.mp4 856c282c5bc351d9c5befebfbc2f8739 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b49bdfc6e039b1a06dd1b1d1ba81df40.pdf 7c4b1276139131cabaf7862dd6a1b224 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Dr. Robert Browne World War II 57 minutes 58 seconds (00:00:16) Early Life Pt. 1 -Born in Coldwater, Michigan on November 12, 1924 -Parents got divorced when he was two years old -Went to live with his paternal grandparents -Had a sister that was a year older than him -Lived in Coldwater from the age of two to the age of six -Moved to a farm with his grandparents -Father remarried and moved to the farm -Sister died at eleven years old due to a congenital kidney problem -Continued to live on the farm until he was about twelve years old -Moved to Lansing, Michigan to live with his mother and stepfather -Lived with them for about three, or four years -Went back to Coldwater for high school -After graduating from high school he enrolled at the University of Michigan (00:02:19) Overview of Service -Eventually enlisted in the Army Air Force -Became a pilot -Flew missions over the South Pacific during the war (00:02:30) Life after the War Pt. 1 -Returned to the University of Michigan in 1946 -Completed pre-dental school and went on to go through dental school -Graduated in 1952 -Worked in Kalamazoo, Michigan for five years practicing general dentistry -Returned to the University of Michigan and studied orthodontics for two years -Moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan and practiced orthodontics for twenty years -Got involved in business and became an investment financier -Started out as a hobby -Eventually grew to having a company with 7,000 employees -Sold off that company and started a smaller investment firm -Dealing with the New York Stock Exchange (00:04:12) Early Life Pt. 2 -Grandfather was a farmer, but also worked at a grocery store in Coldwater -Father and him worked on the farm -He did everything that he could as a ten and eleven year old -Milked cows, cleaned stables, gathered eggs, etc. -The work never bothered him (00:06:05) Enlisting in the Army Air Force -The Aviation Cadet Examining Board came to the University of Michigan looking for cadets �-This was in November, or December, 1942 -He enlisted in the Aviation Cadet Program -There were strict physical requirements that had to be met -Primary focus was on eyesight and how your body adjusted to high altitudes -Placed in a pressure chamber and exposed to pressure levels at 20,000 feet -He had never been in a plane prior to being in the service -Motivated to join because pilots were paid 50% more than ground troops -Passed the physical exam and was on his way to becoming a pilot (00:08:06) Basic Training -Went to Detroit and boarded a train bound for Miami Beach, Florida for basic training -Issued military clothing -Did drills -He got to be a drill leader which meant that he was given his own room -All of the men in training were roughly the same age -It was hard work (00:10:00) Pre-Flight Training -Sent to Xavier University in Cincinnati, Ohio for pre-flight training -Got the basics about navigation and aircraft recognition -Courses were taught by Jesuit priests -It was a good experience -Jogged through the streets of Cincinnati singing Army songs -Civilians would come out to watch them do their jogging -Incredibly supportive of the servicemen and servicewomen -Lasted a couple months -Had to be able to quickly recognize enemy aircraft and the number of aircraft present -Had to learn Morse code -Had to be able to send and receive a certain number of words each minute (00:12:47) Flight Training -Sent to San Antonio Aviation Center, Texas -Taught about aircraft engines -From San Antonio he was sent to Cimarron Field, Oklahoma for basic flight training -Note: In the interview he says "Kansas" but the actual location is Oklahoma -Training with PT-17s -Open cockpit and you had to wear a parachute in case you fell out -First time that he had ever been in an airplane -Trained by civilian flight instructors -There was one instructor to every five cadets -Learning how to fly -As he went into advanced flight training he was given the choice of single engine, or multi-engine -Felt that knowing how to fly multi-engine aircraft would be more useful as a civilian -Sent to advanced flight school and learned how to fly twin-engine aircraft -It was frustrating the first time that he had to land a plane on his own -Eventually mastered it, and after that it was easy �-Did "stage" landing -Learning how to land at marked off parts of the airfield -Training pilots how to land on island airstrips where space was limited -He could always hit the spot exactly because he had excellent vision -All of his training was complete by early 1944 -By then he felt totally prepared to fly overseas (00:20:25) Flying Missions in the South Pacific -Sent to New Guinea and was assigned to the 41st Squadron of the 317th Troop Carrier Group -Flew C-47 transport planes -Went to Hollandia, New Guinea by ship -Anytime after June 1944 -Sent up to the islands of Luzon and Leyte in the Philippines, then Okinawa -Leyte in November 1944, Luzon in March 1945, and Okinawa August 1945 -Carried supplies and dropped paratroopers in airborne operations -Took part in the Battle of Corregidor in February 1945 -Dropped paratroopers on the island -Dropped ammunition and supplies to the soldiers and marines fighting in the mountains -Flew vehicles to troops on the ground -Flew injured men to hospitals and to places where they could be taken to hospital ships -Could carry three jeeps for a vehicle drop -Crew was a pilot, co-pilot, radio operator, navigator, and a crew chief -Didn't always fly with the same men -Dropped napalm on Japanese positions in the mountains -Would be only about 1,500 feet off of the ground -Lost planes due to ground fire -Flew in groups of three, or four, for the napalm missions -One of the men shot down on one mission was his tent mate and a close friend -Initially rescued by U.S. troops, but ultimately died of his wounds -Co-pilot on that plane was also killed in action -Only needed four more hours of flight time then he was going home (00:27:38) Living Conditions Pt. 1, Contact with Home, and Protocol -While on Luzon in the Philippines they were stationed south of Clark Field -When he was overseas his only shelter was a tent -Had to sleep with mosquito netting covering him -Living conditions were hot and primitive -Had to deal with jungle rot, but you usually healed quickly from it -One of his duties as an officer was to censor outgoing mail -Hated to do that -Felt that it was an invasion of privacy and no one was comfortable with that -A lot of the enlisted men were much older than the officers -Awkward to be saluted and called "sir" by a man that was old enough to be your father -Issued "points" �-The points system was a way to track which soldiers were eligible to be sent home -Points were issued on length of service, rank, combat seen, and dependents -He wrote a lot of letters to his grandmother (00:34:13) Travel -Got R&R while he was overseas -When they were in the lower Philippines pilots would be sent to Sydney, Australia -He missed out on that because he hadn't seen enough action -When they were in the northern Philippines he got an R&R to an old, Filipino resort -Had a cottage, swimming pool, and a servant -Went up there with four other pilots -Spent most of the time relaxing and playing cards -Went to Manila and visited the University of Santo Tomas -Had been used as a major internment camp by the Japanese during the occupation -Met some young women and had dinner with their relatives -Opportunity to hear firsthand what it had been like under Japanese rule (00:38:00) Dangers of Flying -Didn't feel in danger every time that he flew a mission -There were a few times where he thought he was going to have ditch the plane due to weather -One instance was after the war when he was flying from Okinawa to Seoul, Korea -His mission was to deliver radio equipment to the airfield in Seoul -Clouds were so thick that he had to fly by instruments to get to the west coast of Korea -Eventually got under the clouds and followed the coast to the Han River -Picked up a radio relay from a B-25 that was giving landing instructions -Once he landed his plane only had fifteen minutes of gas left -Had to spend the night in Seoul to wait for a fuel resupply drop -The crew he flew with had just arrived from the United States (00:44:03) End of Service, Morale, & Living Conditions Pt. 2 -Discharged in March 1946 -Had flown almost every day during his deployment -Morale was good for the pilots, but not so good for the enlisted men -A lot of the enlisted men were frustrated about being overseas so long -On average, men in the Pacific were gone longer and dealing with worse conditions -He was overseas for about a year and a half -Got to see some USO Shows and some movies -The food was okay -Fed "bully beef" (corned beef) and hard tack (00:47:35) End of War, Post-War Service, & Coming Home -He was on Okinawa on Victory in Japan Day (August 15, 1945) �-Someone from headquarters came out shouting that Japan had surrendered -Had been expecting it after the atomic bombs were dropped -It was a huge relief, and there was a great celebration -He was kept overseas for a couple months after the war -Took a ship back to the United States -Stayed in old dormitories and had nice rooms for a change -There wasn't much to do in Okinawa after the war was over -There was a nearby community theatre that was used for USO Shows -Would take new pilots up for a flight to help them get used to the airplane -He flew by Hiroshima and Nagasaki after the war was over -Had expected to see destruction, and a lot of rubble -Wasn't prepared to see an entire city laid flat and devoid of life Note: Since Dr. Browne was in the service until March 1946 he was also most likely stationed at Kimpo Airfield, Korea and Tachikawa Airfield, Japan before being sent home -Taken to Oregon -Boarded a train in Oregon and went to Fort Sheridan, Illinois -Rather than be discharged he was placed in the Reserves -This was because pilots were too valuable to simply be discharged -He knew men that were called up for duty during the Korean War -He wasn't called up because he was pursuing his medical profession -At twenty nine years of age you could resign from the Reserves, which he did (00:54:50) Life after the War Pt. 2 -He was able to use the GI Bill in college which was a tremendous help -The GI Bill with his savings from the military freed him from working during college (00:56:11) Reflections on Service -Feels that he matured quite rapidly, moreso than he would have otherwise -Believes that a lot of that may have had to do with being a pilot with responsibilities -Had no trouble returning to civilian life after the war � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_BrowneR1781V Title A name given to the resource Browne, Robert Warner (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-06-16 Description An account of the resource Dr. Robert Browne was born in Coldwater, Michigan on November 12, 1924. He grew up in Coldwater and Lansing, Michigan and attended the University of Michigan prior to enlisting in the Aviation Cadet Program of the Army Air Force in November (or December) 1942. He received training in Miami Beach, Florida, Xavier University, Ohio, San Antonio Aviation Center, Texas, and Cimarron Field, Oklahoma. He completed training in early 1944 and was qualified to fly multi-engine planes. He was sent to Hollandia, New Guinea where he joined the 41st Squadron of the 317th Troop Carrier Group. He flew C-47 transport planes and participated in supply drops, airborne missions (particularly the dropping of the 503rd Parachute Infantry Regiment on Corregidor), and napalm bombing missions in the Philippines. He was stationed in Okinawa after the war ended in 1945 and was eventually sent home and placed in the Reserves in March 1946. In 1953 he retired from the Reserves. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Browne, Robert Warner Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Moore, Deb (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Air Corps Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e5bafba73abc14b26a5c45788adc88d7.mp4 4fe3bf6446167ea8aff3665ad0b6d5ad https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/badc8ae4db41c67c22b2d6aab0b6278d.pdf 974aebe167d34bec588a7e8d5e0d5abe PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Jerry Bruinekool (24:05) (00:15) Background Information • Jerry was born on December 15, 1938 • He was in the Navy for three years and then in the reserve • Jerry was born in Michigan and went to school in Ada • He had several uncles and cousins that served during World War II • Jerry was only three when Pearl Harbor was attacked (01:30) Enlistment in the Navy January 1956 • Jerry felt that his life was going nowhere and needed a change • He chose the Navy because he thought it would have nicer living quarters and better food • He had been living with his parents and joined with a friend of his • Boot camp was rough for him and he did not like his commanding officer • Jerry received many demerits and had to do a lot of extra exercise • They did many push-ups, ran a lot, and got up every day at 6:00 am (04:50) Overseas • Jerry had been stationed at Great Lakes Naval Base in Chicago and then went to Virginia for five months • He was then station in Havana, Cuba and traveled to Puerto Rico and Saint Thomas • He was stationed in the Mediterranean twice and traveled to France, Italy, Portugal, Greece, the Netherlands, Belgium, and visited the Rock of Gibraltar • He had been working in a carpenter shop in Virginia fixing small wooden Navy boats • Jerry never saw any combat (07:40) Memorable Experiences • Jerry enjoyed experiencing the cultural differences at all the foreign ports he visited and seeing how other lived in different countries • There were many storms in the Caribbean during the hurricane season that he experienced • He met his wife during his second year in the service and wrote her many letters • To pass time many of the men played pool, basketball, cards, and went swimming (13:25) Friendships • Jerry got along with all the other men he worked with and most of his commanding officers • He had joined with a friend, but his friend had been held back during basic training for medical reasons �• Jerry is no longer in contact with any of the men he met in the Navy (16:00) Life after the Navy • Being discharged was a long process with all the medical examinations and paperwork • Jerry took some time off afterwards to relax • Once he began looking, it only took Jerry about a week to find a job, but it was hard for him to keep a job and he moved around a lot • He now thinks that he is lucky that he never had to fight in any war • He does not go to any reunions because they are too costly and has enough friends where he lives • Jerry believes that the Navy made him a better person and gave him some direction in life � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bruinekool, Jerry (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bruinekool, Jerry Description An account of the resource Jerry Bruinekool was born in Michigan on December 15, 1938. Jerry enlisted in the Navy in January of 1956 because he felt that his life needed some direction. While in the Navy, Jerry traveled to Cuba, Puerto Rico, Saint Thomas, France, Italy, Portugal, and Greece. He enjoyed going to all the different foreign ports and seeing how other people lived. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVries, Alex (Interviewer) Caledonia High School (Caledonia, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Navy Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-06-04 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BruinekoolJ Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5679c71cc7a48e57b804f0a738e323ed.mp4 b9b557ea8e7f28ac16af2cd842b3fe20 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9295465bd2f2a024d74af1ccb84d693b.pdf fad8b0ef421529d316b8477e17f4c857 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Donald Brummel Length of interview (0:24:28) Pre-Enlistment • Childhood o Born and raised in Burnips, Michigan. (0:51) His family were farmers. (0:54) • His Job o He was 22 years old during Pearl Harbor and worked at Extruded Metals in Belding, Michigan for 2 years. (1:13) Enlistment/Training • Brummel was drafted in 1944. (2:00) He chose the Navy as his branch of service. (3:00) • Reports for training and is taken to Great Lakes Recruit Training Center, Illinois. (3:31) Did not recall much of his training (3:40). • Transferred to Camp Shoemaker, California for about 1 year. (4:40) • Underwent specialized training and worked at a bowling alley, a ship yard, and a cannery. (5:00) st 1 Duty Station • Sent to Okinawa via Merchant Marine ship. (5:48) Describes rough seas and Kamikaze planes. (6:30) He speaks of the views of the island from the ship. (7:30) • Jobs and Duties o Brummel drives ambulances and trucks. (8:00) Mentions knowledge of the fighting abroad. (9:00) Ambulance drive during the whole of his service. (9:53) o Talks of storms and field hospitals. (10:30) Also, the lack of women on the island, only male corpsman. (11:00) Took care of Sea Bees who worked on the island. (12:00) • Interactions o Spoke of contact with Japanese farmers and female workers, (12:20) and saw no children. (13:20) Camp was attacked in the night, no prisoners were to be taken. (14:00) o Worked with men from Pennsylvania, Detroit and Iowa. (15:00) The received no medical training and were only drivers. (16:00) o African American soldier drink medical alcohol. (16:30) Speaks of Navy food. (17:00) Stayed on Okinawa for about 1 year. (17:45) o End of the war. (18:00) 2nd Duty Station �• He was shipped to another station (location unknown) and was still driving ambulances on this post. (18:31) Discharged from this post and returned to Michigan. (19:28) Additional Experiences • Brummel married before entering the Navy and had 2 children. (20:07) • Outlines bad experiences, (20:51) including drinking rubbing alcohol. (22:00) • Discusses the effects of the Navy on him. (22:30) • Wishes he would have become a Sea Bee. (23:00) • Returns to farming and goes to university. (23:43) • Became a plumber after farming. (24:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Brummel, Donald (Interview outline and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brummel, Donald Description An account of the resource Donald Brummel served in the US Navy between 1944 and 1946. He trained as a truck and ambulance driver and served as an ambulance driver on Okinawa, transporting Marines and Seabees wounded in action. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Byron Area Historic Museum (Byron Center, Mich.) BCTV Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Navy World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-11-13 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BrummelD Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ed12f91af3af1603744bc14fc137fe79.mp4 bba84bb3a4021c592dc7e4556a2c07b5 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8f2af1f00c842decc35d7442571a1b26.pdf 2b96c5070e4c0916724208c4c5077137 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Ted Brummel (00:49:15) (00:15) Background Information • • • • • Ted was born on May 14, 1952 in Byron Center, Michigan He lived on his father’s farm until his father started his own plumbing business in 1959 Ted graduated from high school in 1970 and worked with his father until he enlisted in 1971 His family had a long Naval history and he did not want to get drafted into the Army, so he enlisted Ted first spent one year on reserve duty (3:30) Training • • • • • • • • Ted went into boot camp in December of 1970 and then went through ship board training in Texas He went to a regular Navy boot camp, but only for 2 weeks and 2 weeks on ship board training He had much training already from being in the reserve There was not much physical training during boot camp, but they did spent a lot of time swimming They practiced with masks in case of a gas attack and did abandon ship drills Ted then trained on a destroyer called the USS Berkeley where they went out to sea once a month Sea sickness was very hard for Ted to overcome, especially since he was a cook On his aptitude tests Ted had been designated to be a radar or radio man, but was told that because he was only a 2 year reservist, they would not waste 6 months on sending to school (14:05) Cooking • • • • • • While in port, Ted had board duty and was able to leave base every night He would work after breakfast on Mondays and Tuesdays, have Wednesdays and Thursdays off, then work Friday and have the weekend off While at sea, he would work one day on and one day off Ted was married and had an apartment which his wife stayed at in Long Beach, CA They were scheduled to go overseas in July of 1972, but left in April They stopped in Pearl Harbor for supplies and in Guam for ammunition and ended up in the Tonkin Gulf �(17:15) Line Backer • • • • • • This maneuver consisted of 3 ships that pulled night shifts; 2 would go in along the North Vietnam coast and shoot at targets while the other kept watch They went on raids every night for 3 weeks Ted was cooking and was not able to watch the “show,” but was issued a helmet and life jacket anyways Most of the raids were at night and the men could not open any doors or windows to watch because it would let light out The Vietcong [North Vietnamese?] had radar to lock onto the US ships, but the Navy radar was better and could spot their radar when turned on They traveled at about 30 knots and never stayed in one spot for very long (23:40) Moving along the Coast • • • • They spent 3 months on raids of the North Vietnam coast and then 1 month working on mining the harbor They then went along South Vietnam in support of ground troops They used fire power on designated targets for about 2 months and then went back North They never encountered any enemy aircraft and only a few small Vietnam gun boats that the Marines on board would take care of (29:00) Philippines • • • • • • They often went to the Philippines and stopped at the repair port there There was a shore patrol that often came into the bars and was corrupt They made a man give them his camera so they would not turn him in for the marijuana that they planted on him There were also corrupt local police men that would take their IDs and then they could not get back on base They were warned never to go into town alone and to travel in groups of 4 There was a rumor that you could pay the Filipino police $20 dollars to get rid of someone if you did not like them (31:30) US Base • Ted was sent back to Michigan and had some time on leave to spend with his wife �• • • He then worked on the galley on dry dock in Washington from January through August of 1973 Ted had felt that the US troops were not show enough appreciation by US civilians for the services they provided The civilians in Long Beach, CA were nice while they were training there (41:20) Hong Kong • • • • • • After leaving the Philippines the men had a short time on R & R in Hong Kong before coming back to the US Ted really enjoyed the area and it was completely different from the Philippines He bought a stereo system there and lots of clothes; everything was very cheap He was later encouraged to re-enlist, but would not receive a large bonus because he had only been a cook and not received a lot of training He would have re-enlisted though if he had not had a family because it would have been nice to retire very early Ted was discharged in August of 1973 and began working in his father’s plumbing business and later became a partner �THIS IS AN IMPORTANT RECORD SAFEGUARD IT. l. LAST NAME·FIRST NAME-MIDDLE NAME M B a. - 1 . • aj. 5i ljSNR G CS3 6. SELECTIVE SERVICE LOCAL BOARD NUMBER, CITY. STATE AND ZIP CODE SELECTIVE SERVICE NUMBER 20 1281 I 52 1473 4. DATE OF IE­' PAY4 6 •. GRADE. RATE OR RANK 5. DEPARTMENT. COMPONENT AND BRANCH OR CLASS NAVY C 3 2. SEX BRUMMEL, THEOOORE LAVERNE t. BIRTH 7. DATE OF ADE RANK YEAR MONTH MAY 52 YEAR MONTH 72 NOV DAY 14 DAY 01 HOME OF RECORD AT TIME OF ENTRY INTO ACTIVE SERVICE (Slrtd. RED, Cil). Sis" arrti ZIP C,ilt} 4577 88lli STREET BYRON CENTER, MIGfIGAN 4931S 281, GRAND RAPIDS, MICHIGAN 6. STATION OR INSTALLATION AT WHICH EFFECTED 9 a. TYPE OF SEPARATION USNR RELEASED FRCN ACTIVE DUlY SS BERKELEY (DDG-15) AT BREMERIDN, WASH. YEAR DAY BUPERSMAN 3850220.4 - TO ENTER OR REWRN TO 73 SEP 08 COLLEGE. UNIVERSITY. OR VOCATIONAL/TECHNICAL SCHOOL ~7; OF C"RTIFICAT" 155Um HONORABLE RE-l 'NAVXr"R1jSjjRWA~RCENTER USS BERKELEY (DDG-IS) HP: BREMERTON, WASH. RA NKI< MAINT .ANn ?1 Qr c; AUTHORITY AND REASON t. I' I CHARACTER OF SERVICE I. MONTH EFFECTIVE DATE 10. REENLISTMENT CODE 11. LAST DUTY ASSIGNMENT AND MAJOR COMMAND )(~H TERMINAL DATE OF RESERVE/ MSS OBLIGATION 13. IM~~ YEAR 76 16 II. 14. PLACE OF ENTRY INTO CURRENT ACTIVE SERVICE (Cit]. St." •• J ZIP C,Jt) 0 1 05 BYRON CENTER, MICHIGAN b. RELATED CiVILIAN OCCUPATION AND PRIMARY SPECIALTY NUMBER AND TITLE TITLE RECORD OF SERVICE YEARS 01 00 01 01 02 01 (tI) NET ACTIVE SERVICE THIS PERIOD b. RELATED CIVILIAN OCCUPATION AND D.O.T. NUMBER DOT 313 CS - 0000 (,J TOTAL ACTIVE SERViCE (.+/J) (d) PRIOR INACTIVE SERVICE CHEF/COOKS (.J TOTAL SERVICE FOR PAY (e+t/) (j) FOREIGN AND/OR SEA SERVICE THIS PERIOD 2f. TIME LOST (Prtetdi"l TWlI frJ) NONE SECONDARY/HIGH SCHOOL 22. DAYS ACCRUED LEAVE PAID DAY 14 MONTHS 10 00 10 00 11 10 DAYS 25 00 25 08 03 09 20. HIGHEST EDUCATION LEVEL SUCCESSFULLY COMPLETED (1" Yttm) 19. INDOCHINA OR KOREA SERVICE SINCE AUGUST 5, 1964 ONO OCT 71 (6) PRIOR ACTIVE SERVICE 17a. SECONDARY SPECIALTY NUMBER AND MONTH lB. D.O.T. NUMBER DOT 313 CHEF/COOKS CS - 0000 ~YES DATE ENTERED ACTIVE' DUTY THIS PERIOD 15. YEAR 23.SERVICEMEN'S GROUP LIFE INSURANCE COVERAGE .1 24. DISABILITY SEVERANCE PAY [][NO OV05 00$15.000 OS5.000 YRS (1-12 grlldes) 25. a. TYPE -44­ COLLEGE YR5 PERSONNEL SECURITY INVESTIGATION I. DATE COMPLETED NONE OS10.000 ONON" AMOUNT 26. DECORATIONS, MEDALS, BADGES, COMMENDATIONS, CITATIONS ANO CAMPAIGN RIBBONS AWARDED OR AUTHORIZED NATIONAL DEFENSE SERVICE MEDAL; VIE1NAM SERVICE MEDAL; CCMBAT ACTION RIBBON; MERITO­ RIOUS UNIT CCU1ENDATION. VIE1NAM CAMPAIGN MEDAL WIlli DEVICE (1960~ X X X X X X X X X X 27, REMARKS "LAST DATE OF ACTIVE IUIY: 31 AUG 73. 8 DAYS TRAVEL TIME". X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X :x X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X 28. MAILING ADDRESS AFTER SEPARATION (Street. RFD, Cit}, CIt.JU!. Slatr and ZIP Cet/e) 4577 88lli STREET BYRON CENTER, MICHIGAN 49315 rF-, 31. 30. TYPED NAME. GRADE AND TITLE OF AUTHORIZING OFFICER J. c. mILAND, ENS, USNR, PERSONNEL OFFICER BY DIRECTION OF THE Ca.1MANDING OFFICER PREVIOUS EDITIONS OF THIS FORM ARE OBSOLETE. S/N 0102·002·0202 29. SIGNATURE OF PERSON BEING SEPARATED 1~~~,-iI.. ~e~~ :J;iu.0'""v.,.~Q SIGNATUR" OF OFFIC~HOR,zm 9P~,<, 8"," 8' THIS IS AN IMPORTANT RECORD SAFEGUARD IT. _/4. TO SIGN . REPORT OF SEPARATION FROM ACTIVE DUTY ~ ""':);> V "-'~ ~ '\".) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Brummel, Ted (Interview outline, video, and papers), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brummel, Ted Description An account of the resource Ted Brummel was born in Byron Center, Michigan on May 14, 1952. He enlisted in the Navy to avoid being drafted into the Army. Ted was a 2-year reservist and the Navy told him that they would not spend time training him or with classes if he was only going to be there for 2 years, so he became a cook. He served on active duty between 1971 and 1973, including time spent off the coast of Vietnam on the USS Berkeley where they spent months on raids at night. Military service record appended to interview outline. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Byron Area Historic Museum (Byron Center, Mich.) BCTV Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-07-22 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BrummelT Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f28159584cc73be7011c640549a7ebcc.pdf f66a31314adabbfe77a21d198578a238 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Bryce Kyle Interviewers: Melanie Shell-Weiss Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/11/2011 Runtime: 00:06:26 Biography and Description Bryce Kyle sings a song entitled “The Mankind of Struggle.” He is accompanied by guitar. Transcript 1910 to 1930 Two million black men moved to the city Red yellow black and white, that there’s a difference is histories great plight Ida Mae Brandon’s great fight, which man to pick, man their all alright Robert Joseph Pershing, served his country, yeah alright -ChorusJust look around and see, your no different then me The fear in your eyes yeah, it’s no different than mine I feel your pain love yeah come closer and see Stop standing idle love, yeah that’s no good to me The orchard fields boxed up all nice and tight, they too will go on the great flight Page 1 �Give me a hog and give me some land sir, I’d ask for dignity but looks like you got none to spare Simmons girl tell me what do you see, the price for freedom, I hear it’s a high fee Butler girl damn you have quite the voice, take it to Washington, let them hear you rejoice -ChorusJust look around and see, your no different then me The fear in your eyes yeah, it’s no different than mine I feel your pain love yeah come closer and see Stop standing idle love, yeah that’s no good to me A man with a dream speaks out into the crowd, shots fired I suppose he was to proud They know what to do when we get out of place, there’s no room for us in their idea of grace Malcolm X I hear you my good sir, scream loudly and you might get some to care Speak boldly and then you’ll see, they’ll take a shotgun to end your cry and plea -ChorusJust look around and see, your no different then me The fear in your eyes yeah, it’s no different than mine I feel your pain love yeah come closer and see Stop standing idle love, yeah that’s no good to me Page 2 �LORD you are my shepherd and you lead me right Restoreth my soul LORD in you I take flight Give me your righteousness O’ I know you care I pray your equity sets us in all that’s fair Restore the innocent God I know your love Let your power come, Lord Jesus I need you now Isa 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. END OF INTERVIEW Page 3 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6cc09ad654c6086a5016f34007113070.mp3 d30bda494e61e0258988cee8ec15ecea Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Kyle_Bryce Title A name given to the resource Mankind of Struggle, The Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bryce Kyle Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Melanie Shell-Weiss Description An account of the resource Bryce Kyle sings a song entitled "The Mankind of Struggle." He is accompanied by guitar. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-12-11 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8e53029dc805d4c09dc8fc87e5266490.mp4 2c7f1af74de5157a54378b42b085914e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7757fe3356b7bb3b2de3b9164399ab41.pdf 20ffe83a9141e920a8fb7df8b9fbcf9e PDF Text Text Buckingham, Buck Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Korean War Interviewee’s Name: Richard “Buck” Buckingham Length of Interview: (55:07) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Chelsea Chandler Interviewer: “Okay. Start us off with some background on yourself, and to begin with, where and when were you born?” Detroit, Michigan. August 1st, 1929. Interviewer: “Okay, and did you grow up in Detroit, or did you move around?” Mostly Detroit. I lived outside of Detroit—in Lansing—for a year, and the rest of the time was in Detroit. Northwest Detroit. Interviewer: “Okay, and what was your family doing for a living when you were growing up?” Well, I had two younger brothers. My dad was a—He was a metallurgical engineer, and he sold dye blocks for drop forgings. (1:03) And so that’s why we moved from Detroit to Lansing and then back to Detroit. Same company, bigger job. Interviewer: “Okay, so did he have steady work during the 30s, or was it on and off?” No, he had steady work because he was a chemical engineer, and I guess they were in demand. But you could—It didn’t dawn on me what the economy was because everything was fine. But he worked all the time. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now you were still a kid when Pearl Harbor happened, but do you remember hearing about that?” Oh, yes. I spent the day glued to the big, old Bausch & Lomb radio, which was a monster thing, and you sit right next to it to get it all. (2:04) And that’s the way I recall it. Interviewer: “Okay, and did the war—I mean, did that change things in your community or at your school or anything?” Oh, just that things got tighter right away. Things were tight anyways because it was in—The Depression wasn’t gone yet, and like I said, my dad was gone all the time, it seemed like. �Buckingham, Buck Interviewer: “Well, did you get involved in any kind of wartime activities when there were—Some communities had things like paper drives and metal drives or things like that.” Oh, that was right away because I remember my brothers—I had two younger brothers, and we had one wagon that my dad had built. And we used to go out, I imagine, two or three times a week—maybe Thursday, a Friday, and a Saturday—and come back with a load of paper. And we would get them in twenty-five pound packages so that they could be handled, and that was the paper drive. Then, well, whenever the garage got filled up? Why, we started over again, so all the time we did that. Interviewer: “All right. Now when you filled up the garage, then did someone come and take it away, or what happened?” Yeah, it kind of was, I assume, a central pickup point. Big, old truck would back up. And it was a one car garage, and the car sat outside. But we thought we were doing our part. Interviewer: “Sure. Now did they ever have air raid drills or blackouts or anything like that?” (4:02) The first blackout I can remember was—We didn’t have too many of them. A lot of them were— The first one was really confusing because in the meantime we had moved out to a nicer home on West Outer Drive in Detroit, and it was really strange to see all the lights and—Outer Drive was a nice—It used to be a great boulevard that went all the way around the city out into Dearborn, and, boy, it was dark. There was—You couldn’t have a light. It was nothing. And they had the wardens touring on foot, walking all over to see—“Hey. What’s that light in that garage going for?” Or, “It’s blackout!” And we had, I’d say, probably—I want to say one a month, but that would have been twelve for a whole year, and that would be very much. At first, I imagine we had—I’m just guessing now—probably the first month and the second and third month. Then I think we got it down to where we could survive on—Because, you know, energy—It took all my memory. Interviewer: “Well, they may have figured out after a while the Germans probably weren’t coming after all.” Well, they probably couldn’t get through. Interviewer: “Yeah, little far to get to Detroit.” But Detroit would have been a prime target because it—Where all the automobile factories were and the heavy industry was, so there was a lot of concentration there. (6:14) So I didn’t experience anytime in the early war of rural because later on when I became twelve years old, I worked on a farm in Canada every summer for three summers. My brothers worked as I graduated. They filled in there. Interviewer: “Okay, so how did you wind up working on a farm in Canada?” �Buckingham, Buck Because my dad had worked as a—In a farm in southern Michigan when he was growing up, and he thought everybody should do that. And then it—And I guess I wasn’t a—Wasn’t in the Boy Scouts yet because I wasn’t twelve, so I was in the Cub Scouts. I guess I just wanted to do what I wanted to do. Interviewer: “Okay. All right, so now—And then in Canada—When you were over in Canada, did you just live there for several months and work out there, or…?” Usually from about the Fourth of July—About a week before that to a week before Labor Day. And I’d never been away from home before, so that was a big experience. But I—They needed people working on farms, and by that time I was a full-grown twelve-year-old. Interviewer: “Okay. Now was this a—Something that your family just arranged privately, or was there some—” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, so then it’s not an organized system or anything like that?” (8:01) No. Interviewer: “So did you stay with a farm family then in their home?” Yeah, and I put in more than forty hours a week. Interviewer: “All right. Okay, so now did you finish high school?” Mm-hmm. Interviewer: “Okay, and when did you graduate from high school?” 1947. Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and now at this point did you have career plans, or did you want to go to school, or…?” Oh, I wanted to go to college and ended up going to Hillsdale College for two years. Because I was a kid, I was—I got by. I didn’t realize the importance of really recording the good parts. So I went to Redford High School for four years, graduated in—You already asked me that. But then I went to Hillsdale, which was a two-year school—I had to get my efforts in the right order—and transferred to Michigan State for my junior year. Ran out of money because in the meantime my dad died in an automobile accident. A guy ran a stop sign. And we ran out of money, so… Interviewer: “Did you find a job then, or…?” �Buckingham, Buck Yeah, it was—I was working—I worked for Ford Motor Company in the Pressed Steel Building as a—I had to supply the steel. (10:23) It was—And I didn’t have to buy it. No. I was only a twenty-year-old kid. But I had to make sure the drop forge guys had enough stock. They’d hammer it out, so I was just supplying. And I worked there two summers. They needed people in the summertime, and where else could a guy make—I think I made $1.03 an hour. Big deal. Yeah, starting wage then was somewhere around ninety cents in the Ford Motor Company, so I was way ahead of the game. Interviewer: “Okay. Now were you doing that when the Korean War started?” No. Korean War was—It started in June of ‘50. I was in college. I was working wherever I could make some money because I wasn’t a veteran yet, and therefore I was trying to supply some money for tuition. When I was in college—After I went to Michigan State—See, I spent one year and ran out of money, and then I tried to find a job. (12:10) This would have been in ‘51 now. And they didn’t want somebody just for five or six weeks. They wanted somebody permanently, so—I wish I had a chance to write this down before. Then I wouldn’t be so confused. But… Interviewer: “Now did you have—And now with the war going on there was a draft going on at that time. Now were you thinking about enlisting in the military?” Yeah, I’d—I wanted to enlist in the Air Force, and—Because I wanted to fly, and I’d gone to a couple summer camps. But then there came a point where I had to find a full-time job or wherever they would put me, and so I did part-time jobs. Mowed lawns. Stuff like that. My grades weren’t very good. I had time to grow up yet. I’m glad that was available. Then I—And I tried to enlist in the Air Force to take a—Because I wanted to fly. And that was not successful because their program was cut off. This was towards the end of the war, and so they didn’t have this program anymore. So… (14:04) Interviewer: “So it was kind of a cadet program or something?” It was a—It was going to be an enlistment program, but that was discontinued. Then I had to register for the draft, which I did, and I went in on December 4th, 1951. Something like that. Interviewer: “All right, and then which branch of the service did you go in?” Well, in the draft you went where they told you, and when they told a group of us—“All right, you guys, step over here and line up. Well, raise your hand.” And I was in the Marine Corps, and it was the—I think they had just started drafting in the Marine Corps, and so we were the—I was in the first honor platoon of nothing but draftees, and this designation as an honor platoon didn’t come out until we’d been in boot camp for five or six weeks. And from then on the pressure was on us. We recognized the fact that every one of us there—I think there was sixty-five guys then. We started with about, I want to say, between seventy and seventy-five, and they’d physically went out or mentally couldn’t handle it or weren’t qualified for some reason or another. So now—I forgot your question. (16:04) �Buckingham, Buck Interviewer: “Well, we were—Basically, we had kind of—We’re getting you into the war now. So you get your draft notice, and then—And you wind up being put into the Marine Corps. Now when you first got that draft notice, where did you report to first? Did you go to Detroit or Fort Custer or…?” Detroit. Had to be there in the wee hours of the morning. My next younger brother dropped me off, and I called my mom about 10:30, eleven in the morning. “Mom, I’m in the Marine Corps .” “Where are you going?” “I’ll let you know.” I knew I was going to South Carolina. Interviewer: “Right, so Parris Island?” Parris Island. And she says, “Where’s that?” “Well, look at a map.” Interviewer: “Okay. Now how did they get you down there?” Train. And couple of drill instructors—One was a sergeant. Just got back from Korea. And the other one was a staff sergeant—one above—and he’d been in the islands in World War II. And everything you read about drill instructors was true. And I’d read a Life magazine article in September, and it was a pictorial presentation. And it was—I always wanted to get a copy, but I never could. But—Of this guy’s boot camp. I said, “Oh my god.” (18:01) But—So I knew from that what to expect because I had enough friends that had—Were in the Army. And theirs wasn’t that bad. Interviewer: “Right. Okay. Now while you were in transit—while you were on the train— were these sergeants fairly well-behaved, or were they already shouting at you?” Oh, no, they were pretty gentle. They were—Instead of, “Get your butt over here,” it was, “Get over here.” And I think there was enough of us in that first group that knew what to expect. Just do as you’re told, and do it to the best of your ability. Interviewer: “Now were you older than most of the other guys?” Yeah. Yeah, I was. I think I was twenty-two. That’d be about right, and—But twenty-two was pretty old. Interviewer: “All right. Now what happens once you arrive at Parris Island? When you first pull up there, what do they do?” “Would you line up over here?” “All right.” And I could—I was in the front rank, and—Just because I was—My last name began with a B, and also I was tall. Well, not like some of the other guys, but we had some shorties that—They didn’t meet the height, and they were gone. But I think I was—I think I shrunk an inch or something. I used to be 6’2”. I went down to 6’1”. (20:00) �Buckingham, Buck Interviewer: “All right, but when you got there, I mean, did they act—Did—Were they— When they were telling you to go line up, were they shouting at you, or was it still just regular—” No, no. No shouting. They were good drill instructors. They knew how to get the most, and later on there was a lot of voice raising. Swearing? No. In other words, different than, “Get your butt over here.” Little bit louder because when they spoke, you better do it otherwise you were in trouble. And there was no way to get thinking done, you know? So I have no trouble with it. And we lost some guys that couldn’t stand it. I remember one guy. We were in these pyramid tents. Would hold either four or five. Maybe squeeze six guys in there, but I think we had five. And there’s a potbellied stove in the middle, and it was click on. It was fueled by kerosene. Because it was the first week of December in South Carolina, and it is not balmy down there at that time. So it was cold. And the demeanor of the drill instructors was just fine until we got to where we were going. To the—Where the tents were. And I decided I’m going to do as I’m told and do my best. That was the way to do it. Interviewer: “Now were there some guys who tried to push back, or…?” (22:01) Yeah, there—“So what?” “Oh, yeah?” Well, they weren’t there because they—It’s a first step of not being able to be counted on in the Marine Corps. So I was glad I went in the Marines. Interviewer: “All right. Now what kind of training do you get at Parris Island? What are they making you do?” Discipline. Follow orders. Follow orders and excel at those because those drill instructors— That’s how their—That’s their report card. If they produce a bunch of bums that can’t understand or don’t have anything—No drive to get it done. Couldn’t hit a target with a broom. They don’t want those. I wouldn’t want to go into combat with one of those people, so… Interviewer: “All right. Now when people did mess up, what kind of punishment do they get, or how did that work?” Depended on how they messed up. If we just—“Your other left foot, stupid,” or something like that. They would work with that person, but they’d also work harder and get that person who was causing the problem squared away quick because, again, if you were—Had him on your right or left landing on a beach or whatever, you better be able to count on him because he’s counting on you, so… Interviewer: “Okay, and then did you do a lot of physical training?” Well, it was calisthenics right after when they told you to get out of your sack. (24:07) I think it was 5:30 in the morning or five or whatever it was. It was when I was sleeping. But just following orders and understanding what you were in now. These guys were professionals. They had to be. �Buckingham, Buck Interviewer: “Right. Now as far as you knew you were the first training platoon that was all draftees?” As far as I know. Interviewer: “At least for the Korean War you’re at Parris Island. Yeah.” Oh, we would have been the—We were not the first training platoon, but we were the first one hundred percent at the end of the—You know, at the graduation party. The first honor platoon. Interviewer: “And that meant you had the best record of the other platoons?” Yeah, or—I don’t know about the other platoons, but the—We had reached this level, and a bunch of draftees that, you know, weren’t worth a damn before? Now they were pretty important. Interviewer: “Okay, so at that point now how long did the boot camp last?” I think it was twelve weeks then, but I’m not sure. It’s moved. It’s been moved up and down over the years. Interviewer: “Yeah. Yes, it has, but that’s probably about right for that period. Okay. Now after you complete boot camp, now what do you do?” Okay, so we were given a ten-day leave. And so I took the leave, of course, because I couldn’t wait to get home. And I came back, and I went to Camp Lejeune area. (26:04) And one small area was Camp Geiger, and there was other—Amphibious place exist. This was in South Carolina. Interviewer: “Was it South Carolina or North Carolina now? Because Lejeune is North Carolina.” North Carolina. Okay. Parris Island was in South, and… Interviewer: “Okay, so you’re at Camp Geiger, and…?” I was at an engineering headquarters and service company, which was personnel. I could type. I had three years of college. I was later—Tried to—Been encouraged by some of the officers in the upper echelon NCOs to apply for OCS, which would have been—But I didn’t want to because I said—I was in there for two years. Korean War was starting to bend down, and I couldn’t see being gone for three—I was already older than most of them, so I figured I’d be an old man by the time I got out of there. Interviewer: “All right. Now let’s see. This is the 8th Engineer Battalion that you’re with at that point?” �Buckingham, Buck Mm-hmm. Interviewer: “All right, so now what was the battalion doing there? What kinds of stuff did the companies do?” Well, we had—The companies were A Company, B Company, and then there was a bridge— floating bridge—company. (28:08) And that was in this battalion. And so one of them was a service company, the other was administration, and the other was in the boondocks building bridges. And they were shlocking through there. So I handled mainly record books. We called them service record books. And you would enter it from a daily—I was a typist. So I was in a group of guys, and then we had one sergeant that was in charge of us. And there was two tech sergeants and a master sergeant. So big company has to move all the equipment in an engineer outfit. You’ve got to order the stuff. Well, I was taking care of personnel, and that’s pretty much what I was trained. Interviewer: “All right, so basically do you have what amounts to an office job?” Yeah, but I still went to the field, and I never was in combat. I think most of us wanted to go, but really I’m just as happy I didn’t when I got out. Yeah, Marines is a good place to be because at least they trained you for something. Interviewer: “Sure. Okay. Now let’s talk a little bit about what life is like for you while you were there in that job. What was your daily routine like?” (30:04) Well, we lived in Quonset huts, which were colder than the dickens in the wintertime and sweltering in the summertime because there was no insulation. It’s just a metal—In the old Quonsets. And Camp Geiger was at a small camp next to the big camp. And let’s see… Interviewer: “All right, so you live in Quonset huts, and then you—When does your day start?” Your day started, I think—Meaning roughly, or…? Interviewer: “Yeah, well, when do you get up?” Usually it was around a little after six, and you had to go to—Get some chow. You could straggle if you wanted to, but you’ve got to within a certain—Well, if it’s one going to this building and one go to that building, they’d form up kind of loosely, and then when everybody was there, when the time came where there was a corporal or a sergeant—Marched you over. Interviewer: “Okay, so you’re still moving around as organized groups even if you’re just heading to chow or something else like that?” Mm-hmm. Interviewer: “Okay, and then when do you start work?” �Buckingham, Buck By eight o’clock. Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and then do they give you an eight-hour day or a ten-hour day or a four-hour day?” Well, you get four-hour days where—I can’t remember why. (32:00) Most of them were—Well, even on a Sunday, you’d have to be there until one or two o’clock. Something like that. But there was very few guys. Maybe one NCO and then two privates or PFCs, which I was one, and… Interviewer: “But there’s still people coming and going on and off the base even on a Sunday, and somebody has to keep—” Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and being in personnel, you always had somebody reporting in, and you’d have to report until whatever time was on his orders. But they were either twelve o’clock or by six o’clock in the evening, and that varied. So you had to have someone there. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now this is—You’re in the Marine Corps in a period where the military is starting to desegregate. Did you have any black Marines on the base, or was everybody white?” Yeah. Yeah, in fact, the one NCO was a staff sergeant. He was black. And I’m trying to think of his name. A French name. Chapeau. Something like that. And he was a good guy. He spoke English. There was no difficulty understanding what he meant. You followed his orders. You know, if you do what you’re told, there’s no problem, but if you think you’re better, forget it. (34:04) Interviewer: “Okay. Now you’re—Would you get to go off base much at all, or did you just stay in the camp the whole time?” Well, I had a car, and I had driven all the way down from Detroit to Camp Geiger. Camp Lejeune. So I was popular. But I didn’t loan it. Not even to the good friends that I developed because I learned a long time ago. Interviewer: “Okay, but you would sometimes—You would—But you would go off the base and travel around a little bit? Yeah, yeah, used to go over to the Atlantic Ocean and swim. Liberty town was Jacksonville. Then there was a bigger town, but that was into South Carolina. You know, a PFC didn’t have much money, and I can’t remember what the gas prices were even on the base. But when I had to fill that 1950 Ford with gasoline—That? I know… Interviewer: “That would be kind of limiting.” Yeah. �Buckingham, Buck Interviewer: “All right. Now you were in the segregated South. I mean, did you really notice that at all? You’d come from Detroit, and you would have seen all sorts of people up there.” Yeah, a little bit. More black people—Negroes—were around, and—But some of them had super jobs, some of them were great Marines, and there was no conflict that I can ever recall until later on in my short career in the Marine Corps. (36:19) Interviewer: “So what developed then later on?” Well, at that time I was in Headquarters Marine Corps. Went in as a corporeal and things were freer because I was living in—Just outside of D.C. In fact, I was living in Virginia. Interviewer: “So did you move up to Quantico then? Is that where the—” No, I never did go to Quantico. I went to—Headquarters Marine Corps was by the Navy Annex, and… Interviewer: “Is that Alexandria, Virginia or somewhere around there?” Arlington. In fact, the barracks I was in jutted out into Arlington Cemetery, so every once in a while you’d be awakened by a military funeral. Barrage of artillery or rifle fire. Interviewer: “Okay, so how long did you stay at Camp Geiger, do you think?” I was there until—I reported into Arlington—Headquarters Marine Corps—in November. I was there about a year. Interviewer: “Okay. Yeah, so November ‘52 looks like when you go up there.” Mm-hmm. Interviewer: “All right. At least that’s so—Or at least that’s when you go to Washington. So your last year. So you have about eight, nine months or whatever at Camp Geiger and then switch.” Yeah. Interviewer: “How did you wind up making that switch? Did the Marines just tell you one day you’re going somewhere else, or did you apply for a program, or…?” (38:05) Well, they were looking for particular people, and I fit whatever they wanted because I had three years of college, and I was big enough to defend myself and let them know what I thought. I had performed okay. I didn’t apply for it. They said—The officers came to me and said, “What do you think? You want to go?” And I said, “I don’t know. Let me think about it.” He said, “Well, �Buckingham, Buck I’ll give you about twenty minutes.” And I decided, “Okay.” So I was given—I didn’t take a leave because I’d used pretty much my first year’s allotted time up. And so I just drove up there. Interviewer: “All right. Now how was the job in Washington different, or at the headquarters how was that different from Camp Geiger?” Well, you had to go from wearing dungarees to wearing at least Marine green or khakis in the summer. I only wore dress blues, which I had to borrow, when I drove the Michigan Jeep for Eisenhower’s first inaugural parade. So I guess Republican Party had said that—“We’ll supply white Willys-Overland Jeeps provided Marines in dress blues will drive.” (40:07) And how I got in that? I don’t know. I don’t—I know I didn’t raise my hand. But they came pretty much from posts around the D.C. area. Interviewer: “Right. Okay, so how did they manage—And what do you remember about the inaugural and how all that stuff worked? What were you—What did you do that day, or what did you see?” Well, I remember it was colder than a billy goat and had to be—We were up at 4:30 or something like that. We had, I remember, breakfast at five, and then we had to be ready to go into D.C. from Arlington. And it was about 6:30 or seven, so it was a slow day because parade didn’t start until middle of the afternoon. And so here we are standing around in dress blues and making sure that nobody comes and messes up our white Jeep, and we were dragging a Michigan float. Each one of these Jeeps was—Had a float. And so it was pretty much protect the inventory. But we had coffee. They had coffee rounds. They’d come around. Feed you coffee. Then you had to find a head somewhere because this was just out in the street, you know. Weren’t any trees. (42:00) Interviewer: “Something—The planners hadn’t thought about that.” Yeah, but it was interesting because we had meals brought out to us. Then when we finally got in the parade where everything was well-organized, I was driving the Jeep, and I had a tech sergeant as my leader. And he was sitting to me, and it’s the first one he’d been in. But he had ribbons from here all the way up to here. He’d been all over during World War II. I hadn’t been anywhere yet. I felt like a chicken running across a farm. But it was really interesting. It really was interesting. And it was a long day, and my wife-to-be—I had met her on New Year’s Eve. She was in the Air Force. That’s her picture up there. And so she made sure that I got some rest, and we weren’t even married yet. And slept in the backseat of my car to get some shut-eye because I’d been up forever, it seemed like. Got back to the base about midnight that night. That was a long day. Well, I’ll never forget it. Interviewer: “All right. Now how did you meet your wife? You said you had on New Year’s. Did you just go to a party in there, or…?” Well, around the D.C. area there’s a lot of military bases, and she was in communications. Worked out of the Pentagon, and she’d been in about three or four months less than I had been in. (44:08) And it was a bar. New Year’s Eve of 1951? �Buckingham, Buck Interviewer: “Or ‘52 probably.” ‘52. So I was glad to hit the sack that night. I was pretty tired. Interviewer: “Okay, and then when you think—Again, so what was your actual job then when you’re at the Marine headquarters now? Was it still just personnel, or was it more complicated?” Personnel pretty much. Dealing with some people that had problems, you know, with combatrelated stuff and following through. And eventually I was in charge. I was a corporeal then. Not too long after that, I got a sergeant stripe, so—And I had only been in a year and a half. And I had offers, but I wanted to get back to civilian life. Interviewer: “All right, and then what kinds of—Who were you dealing with or working with? Did you have—Was it mostly just non-coms, or did you have a lot more officers hanging around, or…?” We had officers hanging around because each one of them were in—Really in charge of a company. And the enlisted NCOs—They probably knew more than a little bunch of officers put together because those guys were—The officers were college graduates—recent—where these other guys were six stripe master sergeants, and they didn’t have the next rank, which is—Which would get created after I got out. (46:22) But that was good, and they’re a good bunch. And there was a bad egg every once in a while, but you either skirted away from them, did what they wanted—Because the stripes mean an awful lot. Interviewer: “Okay, so that boot camp training—Just do what they want you to do. That still applies here?” Oh, yeah. It has got to be. No question. Interviewer: “All right. Now if you think to the time that you spent there working in Washington, are there particular things that happened that stand out in your memory or particular impressions of that job that stand out for you?” Well, probably it was some of the guys’ record books that I had to review and make sure everything was there. And I had to read every page, and there were citations in there. I said, “Oh my god.” And one guy was awarded—that I saw his record book—Navy Cross twice. And so the job meant a little bit more. Interviewer: “Now were you involved in processing recommendations for awards, or were you just—Was working through—” No, no. No, I had what they earned and just making sure that they were paid right. (48:07) Made—Kept track of their leave time. It was a personnel job, which helped me later on. And I �Buckingham, Buck had a couple chances to make bucks on the outside if I do this, and I’d say, “No.” Because someone’s always looking for a deal. I don’t care what they have on their arm or collar or what. Interviewer: “All right. Well, what did they think you could do for them? Just make something go away from their record, or…?” No. Well, I had—I recall—vaguely because I don’t want to remember things like that—where they change his leave time from time remaining to a more—And I didn’t know anything like that went on until I started checking with my other cohorts who were in the personnel, and—“Oh, yeah. Tell them no.” So we—It got around, and nobody ever asked me again. So I don’t know. It must have gotten that taken care of. Interviewer: “All right. Okay. Anything else that you want to put on the record here about this service time?” Met my wife. Interviewer: “Yeah, you did tell me that. Okay. Now did you get married after you got out of the service, or…?” No, we—She was in the Air Force, and we—Not a military record or a wedding because at that time I didn’t own a pair of dress blues, and that was around 150 bucks. (50:19) You’d wear them once, and that doesn’t make sense to me. And so just do what you’re told, and if you’re [blown?] out by your parents right, you’ve got no problem. Interviewer: “Okay. Now so—But you got married while you were still in the service?” Mm-hmm. Interviewer: “Okay, and then—Now were there any rules about—particularly for the women—I mean, did your wife have to leave the service when she got married, or she was able to stay around?” No, no. At one time, I guess, way back when. No, she could’ve—She loved her job because— She retired because she was pregnant. And she and I made about the same amount of money. You know, big deal. I forget what it was. I’d be ashamed to tell you. Interviewer: “Okay. Now did you get—Did you live off base then at that point, or…?” Yeah, we lived in an apartment in Arlington, and it was $90 a month. And we had to scratch to get that in. And we had commuted rations; we used to call them COMRATS. And we were paid to eat off the base, and I would—I can’t remember whether I had to pay for my lunch—I know I paid for it, but do—Whether I gave them cash or whether I wrote a check. (52:03) But I know it was done properly because someone is in charge of that, so—And same with her. She was working in the Pentagon. �Buckingham, Buck Interviewer: “All right, and now you basically finish up two years after you started, so early December ‘53 your enlistment is up. What do you do then after you get out?” I’d already applied to return to Michigan State, and we lived in—Let’s see. Married housing. Yeah, you had to, you know, get on a list. Interviewer: “Okay, so they had some married student housing but not enough for you to get into right away?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and then—And what did you take your degree in?” Business administration. Interviewer: “Okay, and then what did you do after you got out?” Well, I sold insurance for a year. Didn’t like that. Went to work for Sears, Roebuck and Company. Got on their training program because I had a college degree, and I was a veteran. And thirty-two years later, I retired. Interviewer: “All right. Okay. Now you said a little bit about this already, but overall, how do you think your time in service affected you, or what did you take out of it?” I think everybody should be in the service. Not for four years or six years or whatever they want, but I think everybody has to be familiar with working with other people and depending—And I’d already passed that before I ever went into the service because I was the oldest, things were tough, my dad was killed—So I had a couple different avenues to take. (54:29) So I think it all paid out, so I’m not disappointed with my life. I got a great daughter. I got two sons; one’s already retired. So… Interviewer: “Yeah. Yeah, so you weren’t such an old man then after all. At least, not when you were in the Corps.” No. Nope. Interviewer: “All right. Well, thank you very much for taking the time to share this story today.” How can you remember all that? You can’t. You got a machine there. It recorded everything. Interviewer: “That’s right.” (55:07) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_BuckinghamR2174V Title A name given to the resource Buckingham, Richard (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-12-05 Description An account of the resource Richard "Buck" Buckingham was born in Detroit, Michigan in 1929. Buckingham grew up in Detroit and graduated from Redford High School in 1947. He then attended Hillsdale College for two years before transferring to Michigan State University where he stayed for one year. In 1951, Buckingham considered joining the Air Force, but this ended up not happening because the program he was interested in was cut off. However, in December 1951, Buckingham was drafted into the Marine Corps. Buckingham first reported to Detroit and was then sent to Parris Island, South Carolina where he went through a twelve-week training program. Once Buckingham completed his training, he joined the 8th Engineer Battalion at Camp Geiger in North Carolina and began working in personnel at an engineering headquarters and service company there. In November 1952, Buckingham moved to Arlington, Virginia and started working at the Headquarters Marine Corps. During his time in Arlington, Buckingham drove a Jeep in Dwight D. Eisenhower's inaugural parade, met his future wife who worked for the Air Force, and eventually became a corporal. In December 1953, Buckingham's enlistment ended, and he returned to Michigan State University where he earned a degree in business administration. After graduating, Buckingham sold insurance for a year before landing a longlasting job at Sears, Roebuck, and Company. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Buckingham, Richard B. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Marine Corps Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng