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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Robert H. Merrill photographs
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1909/1950
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-222
Description
An account of the resource
Photographs, negatives, and lantern slides digitized from the papers of engineer and archaeologist Robert H. Merrill. A Grand Rapids native, Merrill held an accomplished career as a civil engineer. He founded the company Spooner & Merrill, which held offices in Grand Rapids and Chicago. From 1919-1921, Merrill lived in China, working as Assistant Principal Engineer on a reconstruction of the Grand Canal - the oldest and longest canal system in the world. Merrill became fascinated by archaeology, and among other projects, he traveled to the Uxmal Pyramids in Yucatan, Mexico, with a research expedition from Tulane University. Merrill's photo collection includes images of his travels and projects, friends and family.
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Merrill_NE_62_1926_007
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1926-02-11
Title
A name given to the resource
Caracas, Venezuela
Description
An account of the resource
Black and white photograph of a city with mountains in the background. "Caracas, Venezuela. 1926-2-11." is written on the bottom of the image.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Caracas (Venezuela)
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpg
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
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PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veteran’s History Project
War in Iraq
Ben Cardenas
Interview Length: (01:27:59:00)
Early Life/ Early Military Experience (00:00:07:04)
Born in 1981 in Saginaw, Michigan, where he spent his childhood (00:00:07:00)
Both parents worked in the automotive industry (00:21:00)
Grew up in a family of 4 children (00:00:34:00)
Following his graduation from Bridgeport High School in 2000, attended Grand Rapids
Community College for one semester (00:00:42:00)
Joined the Marines in 2001 (00:01:05:00)
o Was drawn to the idea of enlisting to follow the generational family tradition
(00:01:26:22)
o Significant military history within his family including Spanish- American and
Mexican- American wars (00:00:40:00)
Did not expect to become heavily involved in U.S. military duties (00:02:30:26)
o Wanted to keep his lifestyle by maintaining a reserve membership, not active duty
(00:02:30:00)
After the terrorist attacks of September 11th, 2001, began active training at the Marince
Corps Recruitment Depot San Diego on November 13th, 2001 (00:03:11:00)
At the boot camp, they “strip you of your identity” (00:03:40:00)
o Here, recruits are taught to be purely obedient (00:04:09:12)
o Found it very difficult to adjust to the lifestyle (00:04:46:25)
o Punishment was a collective burden to all recruits (00:05:18:00)
o Camp used “incentive training” on recruits, which is similar to what is known as
“hazing” (00:05:35:27)
Those in charge at the boot camp were “machines” (00:07:23:06)
o Very demanding of the recruits, installing both respect and fear in new soldiers
(00:07:35:00)
o Appreciated his authority’s’ demeanor because at boot camp, he felt he had
“something to prove” (00:07:43:00)
Certain pattern of diversity at the boot camp (00:08:00:23)
o Boot camp population split largely between Michigan and Texas (00:08:01:12)
o Most between ages 18 and 20. Anyone older than 20 was uncommon.
(00:08:37:21)
Marine Corps boot camp lasted 13 weeks (00:08:59:19)
o First week is an “administrative” week, where recruits are disciplined as a group
(00:09:05:00)
o Then comes “black Friday” where recruits are introduced to who and what the
camp will actually involve (00:09:17:15)
By human nature, recruits would try to find “loopholes” (00:09:51:00)
o Intensity must always be high, so new soldiers would “act” in a way that pleases
the authorities (00:10:00:00)
o Camp activities are “from sunup to sundown” (00:10:33:12)
�o Camp activities are purposefully made more difficult and uncomfortable for
recruits (00:10:43:00)
The goal of boot camp is to graduate as soon as possible (00:11:41:00)
o Marine Corps is built on tradition and graduation ceremonies are highly respected
events (00:13:10:00)
After boot camp, had 10 days of vacation and then went to the School of Infantry in
Camp Pendleton for 8 weeks
o More relaxed than boot camp, although it took time to detach from the boot camp
mentality (00:13:58:00)
Infantry School included a significant amount of classroom time, contrary to popular
belief (00:14:23:10)
o Required pupils to learn things in mathematics, geometry, physics, and other
fields (00:14:35:00)
Infantry school had fewer guidelines than the highly disciplined boot camp (00:15:16:00)
o Authorities still managed to find ways to instill fear/respect in pupils
(00:15:22:00)
There are 3 main weapon systems the platoon used: M-240G, M-2, & Bart 19
(00:15:41:24)
At the school, they were taught to handle the guns in groups(00:16:10:00)
o The teams consisted of 3 members: a “Team Leader”, a “Gunner”, and the
“Ammo Man”. All positions are held, respectively, according to level of
experience (00:16:13:00)
o The team leader, being the most experienced, deals with the most technical
aspects of the weapon’s use (00:13:58:00)
The training terrain was mostly mountains and beaches, making the simulations much
more treacherous (00:13:58:00)
Difficult to keep up with current events/location of deployed marines while in Infantry
School (00:18:25:00)
o Limited free time (00:18:27:00)
After Infantry School, you are assigned to a unit (00:21:06:04)
Went back home in May 2002 (00:21:58:00)
Active Duty (00:22:30:00)
On December 26th, 2002, was alerted of mobilization (00:22:40:00)
o Was only given 3 days’ notice, unlike today’s deployments, which are more
scheduled (00:22:43:00)
Unit, (Alpha Company, !st Battalion, 24th Marine Regiment), reported to Grand Rapids
for 3 days, then was transported to Germany for a few weeks (00:23:02:00)
o In Germany, the unit was simply waiting to be transported again (00:23:25:06)
o Was activated quickly because of outstanding health records (00:23:31:16)
Was then sent to Djibouti (00:24:20:00)
o Throughout the transportation from place to place, the unit was confused as to
why they were going there (00:24:22:00)
o Stayed there for 9 months doing force protection, which is simply guard duty,
during which time the invasion of Iraq was already under way (00:24:44:00)
Used chartered, commercial flights to travel (00:24:52:26)
In Djibouti, everything had a menacing quality (00:25:16:09)
�o The wildlife was exotic and potentially dangerous (00:25:27:00)
o Very hot climate (00:25:56:00)
Used tents for most of the time, as there were no established facilities when they arrived
(00:26:24:00)
o Things were being built around them, but they still had to live with minimal
standards (00:27:15:00)
o Despite unpleasant living standards, they were the only ones doing any real work
on duty and thus were able to get some “perks” (00:27:41:00)
Did many humanitarian projects while in Djibouti (00:28:03:00)
Civilians also worked on the base (00:28:12:00)
o Both men and women worked, as their culture was not very strict on gender roles
(00:28:23:00)
There were some places to go for leisure in the town in Djibouti (00:28:50:00)
o Had supervised trips into the city to the markets/etc. (00:29:01:13)
Took 6-7 months to establish effective means of contacting people back home in the
United States (00:29:20:15)
o Before other ways to communicate were found, “3 phones, 3 computers for…4
thousand people” (00:29:37:00)
After 9 months in Djibouti, got to come back home in September (00:29:52:04)
o Everyone in the unit wanted to be stationed in Iraq very badly because the rest of
their battalion was already there (00:30:08:19)
Stayed home for about 3 years (00:30:35:26)
o During this time, there were several incidents where the men were told they
would be deployed to the Middle East, but this never actually happened
(00:30:40:00)
At home, continued to prep for what could await them in Iraq (00:31:35:00)
o Tried to educate himself by attending military courses including advanced
infantry, squad leader classes and went to the Defensive Language Institute for
Iraqi dialect (00:31:38:20)
In May of 2006, was sent to Camp Pendleton for 4 months before going to Iraq
(00:34:05:00)
o Had to fill a training requirement before able to go to Iraq (00:33:22:00)
o Also had to learn about how to handle civilians (00:35:50:00)
Deployment to Iraq (00:36:49:00)
In September of 2006, was sent to Fallujah (00:36:51:00)
o Was flown into Kuwait first, where the unit was then put onto military planes
(00:36:50:00)
o Then traveled to a desert region west of Fallujah (00:37:07:00)
First thing noticed when off the military plane was the very distinct smell (00:37:18:00)
Was then loaded onto a military utility truck and drove to Fallujah, which was a very
frightening experience due to the regional fighting that they had to travel through
(00:37:51:15)
Upon arrival in Fallujah, was surrounded by a “parade” of security forces (00:38:37:20)
Fallujah is similar to what happens when you have a “nice middle eastern city and step on
it” (00:39:10:21)
o The Battle of Fallujah left “almost nothing” (00:39:15:00)
�
o The population was about 300,000, were trying to repopulate the area after the
battle of Fallujah (00:39:33:00)
First job in Fallujah was called SASO (Security And Stability Operations) (00:39:58:00)
o Job was basically “whatever they needed us to do” (00:40:05:02)
o Collected a census, where they walked door- to- door and kept track of who was
in each home (00:40:13:00)
Because had language skills, was a military advisor as well (00:40:22:00)
o Was part of a “MIT” team (Military transition team) (00:41:25:00)
o Did this for two months before becoming involved in SASO (00:41:35:20)
o This job involved doing “whatever the Iraqi captain wanted to do”, and operated
separately from other forces (00:41:40:00)
o Difficult to communicate because of the language barrier between Americans and
native Iraqis (00:42:01:00)
The environment was more dangerous because the equipment was not the best and they
were often in the city, which was the least safe in the area (00:42:33:24)
o Was called the “Iraqi Death Box” (00:42:30:00)
o Area was laden with Sheiks and Sunni hostility (00:43:08:21)
o Police were very corrupt (00:43:26:00)
Every day at noon, their living quarters were mortared (00:44:06:27)
Was happy to be attached to an Iraqi force because they were able to help make
improvements (00:44:49:04)
o Being in Iraqi company allowed a “loophole” for Americans that could not
perform certain necessary duties (00:45:23:08)
o Shared American technology with the less privileged Iraqis (00:45:40:00)
The Iraqi company was then moved, so the Americans were not needed after that and he
was moved back to join the rest of the American company (00:46:11:29)
o Began to do the same duties as the rest of the company such as the census,
patrolling, raids, and arrests (00:46:29:00)
o Instead of just trying to find something to do, was now a part of the company
mission (00:46:47:00)
On Christmas day, had a raid mission in Alpha company (00:47:07:00)
Was never able to get heavily involved in the missions of Alpha company (00:47:17:00)
o Mostly assumed an advisory position, and was “never really on the offensive, I
was always on the defensive” (00:47:19:09)
Was with Alpha company from Christmas until late April of the following year
(00:47:48:20)
The company was divided into different tasks by platoon (00:48:03:09)
o One task was the “long ops”, where men would “live off the land” for roughly 2
weeks and gather intelligence (00:48:08:00)
o Another task was the “short ops”, where men were stationed at the FOB,
[Forward Operations Base] or “base”, on Euphrates River where they would also
gather intel on short missions (00:48:22:00)
o Another task was FOB security (00:49:10:00)
o Another task was entry control, where men were in charge of who was entering
the region (00:49:19:22)
Company was frequently subject to open fire (00:49:56:24)
�
o According to procedure, FOB security was the first to react when under attack.
This was generally the point when the opposing forces would cease fire
(00:50:17:02)
Difficult to get permission to use alternate sources of weaponry (00:50:41:24)
o All the men stationed knew how to use firing support, but were unable to use
them. Much potential for the community was lost because of this (00:50:43:10)
o In time, were able to use equipment more freely (00:50:05:00)
A village called Hasa was particularly hostile towards those directly involved in the
fighting each time American troops went there (00:51:46:00)
o Did not follow typical Iraqi fighting styles, and actually wanted to put up a fight
(00:52:11:00)
o In this situation, were able to call upon heavier weapons company (00:52:50:00)
o Regardless of Hasa’s bold demeanor, the company was always able to maintain
control in action (00:54:01:26)
Company lost a total of 5 killed with another 25 wounded out of approximately 160 men
(00:54:41:17)
With all the basic equipment, any given man had to carry about 60 pounds of gear
(00:56:20:13)
o With other things such as the “daypack”, or backpack, a man’s gear weighed
around 80 pounds (00:50:40:00)
o All of the gear was evenly distributed on the soldier’s body, although the weight
still made it difficult to move about (00:56:54:00)
Large temperature fluctuations made it difficult to adapt to the environment
(00:57:20:00)
Uniform material was “old fashioned” and didn’t take well to moisture or provide much
heat (00:57:51:10)
Men were “everyday sick” (00:59:05:00)
o Being “sick” did not excuse you from duty. You had to be in critical physical
condition, such as loss of a limb (00:59:17:00)
Dust, a geographical characteristic of Iraq, was an issue for both weaponry and the
men’s’ health (01:00:01:00)
o Soiled instruments and weapons were not replaced when got extremely dirty.
Marines were expected to do what was necessary to keep them functional
(01:00:30:00)
American troops began to make “friends with the enemy” after responding to trouble in a
tribal city West of Fallujah (01:01:20:00)
o In one region of the city, there was an especial amount of open fire due to a lack
of peace between the local leaders and the Al Qaida leaders, who were mostly
foreigners, when the latter party began to try to force their beliefs on the
community (01:02:07:00)
o At first, did not know who the two fighting parties were because there was “no
friendly party” (01:03:07:00)
o Americans began to seek intel from the local Iraqis, who were technically an
enemy, but not in this situation (01:03:47:00)
o Was difficult to accept the same people who had tried to kill them as a source of
valid information (01:05:45:00)
�o This alliance quickly mended the situation and helped things get on track towards
peace (01:06:32:00)
o In this situation, Americans “weren’t even the targets”, as a truck full of chlorine
gas drove right past some marines and detonated it in the village (01:07:50:00)
o Started to trust the Iraqis at this point, and began to use language skills to form a
stronger alliance with them (01:08:43:00)
o Wouldn’t have done anything to gain the support of the village population or
perform regular procedures because then, the Marines would have become targets
and casualties would have increased (01:09:14:15)
o Building an alliance with other coalitions made intel easier to gain (01:09:53:00)
Americans and Iraqi alliances would coordinate things together (01:10:27:00)
o The “good bad guys” had a leader who had sit-downs with Marine leaders
(01:10:30:00)
o Marines would show the Iraqis the “hot spots” (01:11:00:00)
The alliance really worked (01:11:34:00)
o Didn’t know if the Marines did something technically wrong, but the system
worked (01:11:36:00)
o “We won our war” by empowering the local government and restoring authority
(01:11:40:00)
Post-Deployment (01:12:30:00)
Was overseas until April 2007 (01:12:30:10)
After that, went back to California (01:12:34:00)
o Did some brief training there, and then “I was done” and went back home
(01:12:40:00)
After leaving Iraq, was always following current events (01:13:20:00)
o Especially interested in where had been stationed (01:13:25:00)
5 months after leaving, the city of Fallujah had become peaceful (01:13:35:10)
o A general was able to walk down the street without any armor (01:13:36:00)
o A Kentucky Fried Chicken was built (01:13:41:00)
Had news reporters tag along while on missions (01:14:16:00)
o Would “make them miserable” just for the fun of it (01:14:17:00)
o Reporters were always professional and stayed out of the way of the soldiers
(01:15:02:00)
o Was only able to see the documentary of the Christmas Day raid (01:15:13:00)
o Seemed like Baghdad always got the attention in the media, and it wasn’t really a
hot spot at the time (01:15:43:00)
“I left a good example” during the time overseas (01:16:40:00)
o Got to solve many problems (01:16:46:00)
Becomes a part of the VFW, or Veterans of Foreign Wars (01:017:45:00)
o Works there full time after returning home (01:17:53:00)
o Involved in all sorts of operations including non- profit and financing
maintenance (01:18:00:00)
Would like to become educated in journalism or economics (01:18:22:00)
o Before enlisting, was going for chemistry, but is not interested in that anymore
(01:18:27:00)
�
One hard thing about adjusting as a war veteran is losing all the authority you had
overseas now that you have returned to society (01:18:56:00)
o Become something of a “kid” compared to where you stood in the foreign lands
(01:19:17:00)
o Economically difficult too because few skills transfer over into an American trade
(01:19:47:00)
War is highly glamorized by popular media, especially movies (01:20:37:04)
o It’s not a captain who is calling all the shots, it truly is a “corporal’s war”
(01:20:45:00)
Marine Corps is “forever” (01:21:37:20)
o Coming out of Iraq, everything has “slowed down” compared to how life used to
be (01:22:00:00)
o Tough to come back and feel that you may not ever be as important as you were
overseas ever again (01:22:13:10)
o Veterans are now the easiest to get along with (01:22:21:00)
o Feels like “I can accomplish so much that nobody really knows about."
(01:23:10:00)
“Older” than the people who were not Marines (01:23:48:00)
o Marines do not look like they are portrayed by stereotypes. They look young
(01:24:11:00)
o “The world looks at us differently” (01:24:58:00)
“I’m proud of what I did” (01:26:10:00)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cardenas, Benjamin (Interview outline and video), 2011
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Cardenas, Benjamin
Description
An account of the resource
Ben Cardenas was born and raised in Saginaw, Michigan. , he joined the Marines in 2001 after one semester at Grand Rapids Community College. Following the terrorist attacks on September 11th, he was sent to Djibouti in 2001. He remained there for 9 months where he was primarily involved in force protection. He returned home for a brief time and was deployed to Fallujah, Iraq in September of 2006. While in the Middle East, Cardenas was involved greatly in military advisory because of his advanced communication skills. He and his comrades were able to gain a level of trust within the community, which became a catalyst for the city's advancement and unification. 5 months following Cardenas' retreat to the United States, Fallujah became a completely peaceful and functional city. Cardenas stayed in Fallujah until April 2007 when he returned home.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
United States. Marine Corps
Iraq War, 2003-2011--Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-09-08
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
CardenasB1248V
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/40d663b13c2fed14fc7a1df917be0acb.jpg
7ccfcef27d92869e2abc6a823633c23f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Robert H. Merrill photographs
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1909/1950
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-222
Description
An account of the resource
Photographs, negatives, and lantern slides digitized from the papers of engineer and archaeologist Robert H. Merrill. A Grand Rapids native, Merrill held an accomplished career as a civil engineer. He founded the company Spooner & Merrill, which held offices in Grand Rapids and Chicago. From 1919-1921, Merrill lived in China, working as Assistant Principal Engineer on a reconstruction of the Grand Canal - the oldest and longest canal system in the world. Merrill became fascinated by archaeology, and among other projects, he traveled to the Uxmal Pyramids in Yucatan, Mexico, with a research expedition from Tulane University. Merrill's photo collection includes images of his travels and projects, friends and family.
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Merrill_NE_57_1924_008
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1924-05-18
Title
A name given to the resource
Caretaker house
Description
An account of the resource
Black and white photograph of a boy and a dog standing in front of a farmhouse. The boy is standing in front of the base of a metal windmill holding the dog's leash. A farmhouse, barn, wagon, and chicken coop are visible behind him. "Care Taker House" is written on the bottom of the image.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Children
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Format
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image/jpg
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a995c9a69305a51a5d08de8e08737cac.mp4
89c2b7fa4086f0d2f41a04c65cb244a7
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/95a726224d91fc7db4b82451d470fb20.pdf
51ae4f6bb8bc979d36be3a5f07179ff5
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Hayes Cargill
World War II
Total Time: 0:30:45
Childhood, Pre-Enlistment, and Post-War (00:18)
Born September 12, 1926
Attended South High and Davis Tech High School in Grand Rapids.
Worked in some factories after graduation, and then went to umpire school in
Cocoa, FL and then umpired minor league baseball throughout the Midwest and
the south.
Quit umpiring and umpired around the Grand Rapids area, and worked as an
umpire for the Grand Rapids Chicks.
Was drafted into the service at age 18.
(23:32) Applied for and attended Junior College after the War.
Is a member of the Veterans of Foreign Wars.
Training (08:40)
Attended basic training and then attended airborne school at Fort Benning, GA
and this lasted six months. Was then shipped to CA and then overseas in midAugust 1945.
Active Duty (11:40)
Was in the Navy part of the Army
Went to the Pacific as a Parachute Replacement
Was in the Philippines for six months, and then docked in Yokohama, Japan.
He worked on an LCM, which ferried seamen from their ships that were in a
harbor to the shore.
He worked in this capacity while he was in Tokyo.
On weekend leave, he would play golf in Tokyo.
Then went for a time into the Philippines and remembers all of the jungle around
Manila.
Never saw combat.
Was awarded a medal for good behavior
(15:30) Worked guard duty at times.
For entertainment, the men would play softball and football during the day and
watch movies at night. Would sometimes play pranks on the other men as well.
Went from Georgia to California and then across the ocean to the Philippines.
Was home in October 1945 on leave and was discharged officially in November
of 1945.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cargill, Hayes (Interview outline and video), 2004
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Cargill, Hayes
Description
An account of the resource
Hayes Cargill was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1926, and served in the Navy during World War II. He worked primarily on craft that took men from their ships to the mainland when they were at port. He worked in both the Philippines and Japan, but he never saw combat, as they were in theses areas after the war had for the most part wound down. After the War, he worked as an umpire for minor league and women's baseball.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Stephaie Horner (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Navy
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2004-12-17
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
CargillH
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9744854773cac9f376e2d22fe5d2fa5c.jpg
0ac43ab7f9abc5f7a5b418fc603a5560
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Naval Recognition Training Slides
Subject
The topic of the resource
Slides
Military education
Airplanes, Military--Recognition
Warships--Recognition
World War, 1939-1945
Description
An account of the resource
Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
United States. Navy
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpg
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
image
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-50
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1943-1953
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Source
<a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-50_M1540
Title
A name given to the resource
Cargo ship
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
United States. Navy
Description
An account of the resource
US Cargo-engines aft, bridge amidships, November 10, 1943.
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States. Navy
World War, 1939-1945
Military education
Warships--Recognition
Slides
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1943-11-10
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c8da11bbccdcd8454be00d3bc5f426aa.jpg
aa2c1f8ac757d55c8198aead8f6201ae
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Faces of Grand Valley
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
University Communications
Description
An account of the resource
A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1960s - 1990s
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copryight
Subject
The topic of the resource
Grand Valley State University
College administrators
College teachers
Colleges and universities -- Faculty
Michigan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
GV012-03
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
CarleyRobert
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. University Communications
Title
A name given to the resource
Carley, Robert
Description
An account of the resource
Robert Carley, Political Science
Subject
The topic of the resource
Grand Valley State University – History
College teachers
Universities and colleges – Faculty
Michigan
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4175bb268547604f5b343d9ef159c8c4.mp4
2bf2d5fd345fb20719f61902c6528fd1
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fb52ee95549874ae6660a850767e551c.pdf
46a749b08b70f06689f84b96ca03c62f
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Cliff Carlon
(01:02:34)
(00:50) Background Information
•
•
•
•
•
Cliff was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on March 14, 1921
There were six children in his family and his father had to trade their house in Grand
Rapids for a farm in Wayland during the depression
Cliff went to high school through fifth grade and then began working on the farm and
carpentry work
He later worked for the National Dairy Company in Grand Rapids
Cliff was drafted into the military 6 months after Pearl Harbor was attacked; he was
married and his wife was pregnant
(4:05) Training
• Cliff was sent to Fort Sheridan in Chicago for aptitude testing and they decided that he
should be a mechanic
• He then went to Augusta, Georgia for mechanic classes and was promoted twice before
taking more advanced classes
• He was also going through basic training but did not have to do as much work as others
because they wanted him to focus on his classes
• Cliff was working with Company B of the 692nd Tank Destroyer Battalion in Georgia for
3 months
• He was then sent to Fort Hood in Texas for more training
(9:30) Texas
• They were working with WWI tanks that towed 37 mm guns that were impractical
• He was later sent to Tennessee and worked with M-10 tanks that weighed about 32 tons
with 50 caliber machine guns
• Cliff was working with a cadre of 2 battalions and one of them was sent to North Africa
while the other went to Europe
• While in Texas Cliff had the rank of sergeant
(13:30) Overseas
• Cliff was sent to Philadelphia on a three day pass while waiting for the ship to be ready to
leave from New York
• The ship took longer than expected and he was able to spend 15 days in Philadelphia
• They left right after D-Day on a British luxury liner and were on board with a company
of nurses
�They anchored in at Weymouth Bay in Southern England and left that night for
Cherbourg, France
(22:10) France
• Their battalion was sent to a staging area near Paris around the occurrence of the Battle of
the Dykes
• Cliff later helped to clear the Germans out of the Netherlands so they could ship supplies
North
• They did not get heavy opposition in the Netherlands; the Germans knew they were
losing and were dissolutioned
• The people in the Netherlands were very appreciative of the US soldiers
• Most of the towns were demolished in the Netherlands, France, Belgium, and Germany
• There were still civilians in the Netherlands, but barely any in Germany until the actually
crossed the Ruhr River
•
(25:45) Germany
• The first town they took in Germany was Aachen
• Earlier they had been in Belgium holding 3 cities during the Battle of the Bulge
supporting the 104th Division
• Cliff’s duties consisted of repairing tank engines and replacing old parts
• They only had small damage from shrapnel and some wrecked tires, but nothing major
from battle
• Most of the Germans had run out of fuel and ammunition and stopped attacking
• There was very little resistance once after the Battle of the Bulge and they were
advancing towards the Rhine very quickly
• They were not working as an attached unit and moved all over to where ever they were
needed
(32:10) Reconnaissance Transfer
• Cliff volunteered to transfer to a reconnaissance company
• He later decided that the volunteer was the worst decision he had ever made
• He volunteered because he was young and foolish and did not get along well with the
men in Company B
• He worked ahead of the unit, always under cover and usually went out by himself, but
sometimes with one other man
• He used walkie-talkies to communicate and could get up to 20 miles ahead of the rest of
the unit
• Cliff would sometimes get pinned down in a town and would either have to take out the
enemy or wait till night time to sneak out
(37:15) Rhine Crossing
�•
•
•
•
•
Cliff actually crossed the river before the pontoon bridges were built and once he was
There were many German planes scattered throughout the woods that they had
abandoned once they ran out of fuel
Cliff later crossed the Danube and arrived in Munich, but had gotten metal in his eye and
had to be sent to a field hospital in France for 2 weeks
While in Munich they cleared out the Dachau concentration camp
There were about 50 car loads of bodies along the road outside of the camp and a few
“walking skeletons”
(41:35)Austria
• Cliff was staying in a small mountainous town in the Alps working with the Army of
Occupation for 90 days
• They actually got to live in houses with civilians and they helped the men with their
cooking and cleaning; they had time to go trout fishing
• They were treated well by the civilians and they all got along well
• The Austrians did not have much food and they really appreciated the men’s K and C
rations
(46:25) Post War
• The men eventually took on so many prisoners, there were thousands and thousands of
them and they did not know where to send them
• The German soldiers were not in too bad of shape; they were old and young, with a
couple of very old men
• The SS troops were very cocky and thought that they were the epitome of a soldier
• Cliff’s division only lost about 300 from about 15,00 men and they were very fortunate
• Cliff did not have many points and thought that he was going to be sent to the Pacific
• Just after leaving from La Havre, France he got news that Japan had been bombed
(52:40) Discharged
• Cliff was discharged at Camp Kilmer and began working at the dairy company again
• He took some tests for the Grand Rapids Police Department and ranked in the top 10%
• The GI Bill allowed him to start out at a higher position and higher pay and he eventually
became captain
• Cliff worked for the police for 35 years
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Carlon, Cliff (Interview outline and video), 2008
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Carlon, Cliff
Description
An account of the resource
Cliff Carlon was born in 1921 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He was drafted into the Army in 1942 and trained as a mechanic. He served with Company B of the 692nd Tank Destroyer Battalion in Europe, and later transferred to a reconnaissance unit. After the Germans surrendered, Cliff was part of the Army of Occupation in Austria for 90 days before he was sent back to the US.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Byron Area Historic Museum (Byron Center, Mich.)
BCTV
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
United States. Army
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Video recordings
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2008-09-02
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
CarlonC
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9f46468d32b54e4bafa02810ad6938ae.pdf
97ff4af8f433e0def045774ddeab1476
PDF Text
Text
Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: Carlos Flores
Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 3/29/2012
Biography and Description
Carlos Flores is a cultural activist who lived at La Salle and Superior in the La Clark barrio, growing up on
Armitage Avenue. He takes pride in relating that his family was “the last of the Puerto Ricans to leave
Lincoln Park” and recalls life in Lincoln Park which included his share of minor street battles as a teen
member of the Continentals Social Club. Mr. Flores also fought for Puerto Ricans as a full fledged
member of the Young Lords.Mr. Flores served on the Chicago Mayor’s Advisory Council on Latino Affairs,
under Harold Washington. This council was first set up in 1983 by the Young Lords and four other Latino
representative organizations city-wide soon after Harold Washington was elected the first African
American mayor in Chicago history. Its purpose was to make recommendations of potential candidates
to the various departments and for other Hispano concerns. Mr. Flores earned a Bachelor’s Degree in
Education from the University of Illinois and he holds a Master’s Degree in Criminal Justice. He has
worked as a private investigator for the Office of Civil Rights, Equal Employment Opportunity
Commission, and the Illinois Department of Public Aid. He plays the vibraphone, is a free- lance
photographer, and a documenter and promoter of Puerto Rican and Afro-Caribbean music. Mr. Flores is
also founding member of the Puerto Rican Arts Alliance and a former coordinator for Project Kalinda, at
Columbia College’s Center for Black Music Research. Since 1998, Mr. Flores has assisted in organizing an
annual Cuatro Festival. He produced a documentary film about the 1998 Havana Jazz Festival and has
�written many essays on Afro-Caribbean and Puerto Rican music, some published in journals such as
Chicago’s De Paul University Dialogo and the Centro Journal of Hunter College in New York. Mr. Flores
has conducted his own oral history interviews with Chicago Puerto Rican residents, and as a
photographer has held exhibitions at Malcolm X College, the Old Humboldt Park Stable Museum and the
Old Town School of Folk Music. Currently, Mr. Flores continues his community leadership, giving lectures
on Puerto Ricans, Afro- Caribbean music, and urban renewal displacement for the Urban Life Center. He
also teaches a workshop for the Neighborhood Writing Alliance and another workshop on Puerto Rican
tiple construction.
�Transcript
JOSE JIMENEZ:
Okay, if you could -- Carlos, if you can give me your full name,
when you were born.
CARLOS FLORES: Yeah. My name is Carlos Flores. I was born in Guayama, Puerto
Rico, in 1949. I arrived in Chicago in June of 1959, at the age of 10, or right
before turning 10. The first place that I moved to that I lived in Chicago was in
Superior and La Salle, which is like in the area right around Clark Street and
Chicago Avenue, near there. And so I spent a couple of years there, and then
went to school at Ogden Elementary School.
JJ:
How old were you then, about?
CF:
10, 11.
JJ:
So what was Ogden like? I mean -- go ahead and answer.
CF:
Ogden school was, well, you know, it was kind of interesting because back in
those days, it was a lot of Puerto Rican -- my sisters were already here. They
had been here, like, maybe three or four years before. But Ogden School
[00:01:00] was kind of like, at that time there was no bilingual education, so what
I remember from that situation is that I used to be put in the back of the room,
and all I did, I spent drawing in Crayolas all day long because, you know, I
couldn’t communicate with the teacher. I couldn’t participate in the classroom
because I didn’t speak the language. So, you know, it was a disadvantage in
terms of my educational process at that early age, in terms of the disruption that
happened with it. You know, coming from Puerto Rico, being in school, and then
1
�coming here and actually being put through that whole disruption, which
eventually did have an impact on my educational life because eventually, I ended
up dropping out of high school and getting kicked out of high school. You know, I
just like -- the interest, and I really lost focus in terms of, you know, educational
objectives, you know, that you might have gone through as, you know, as -- I
mean, the [00:02:00] initial process would have been to go through grammar
school, high school, and then into college. That would have been the smooth
transition. But many of us came here, and the disruption of the language barrier
actually caused -- had a cause and effect on a lot of our lives because of the fact
that we -- by the time we’re already in high school, we just, you know, we were so
far behind trying to catch up that a lot of us just gave up, had no aspiration. I
mean, and then, you know, people would not have ever talked to us about going
to college. That was like something that you need, you know, it was unheard of,
you know? So. But, you know, I remember living there. I remember there was -right on the corner of Superior and Clark Street, there was a store called the
Spanish American Food. It was kind of like one of the first stores that actually
provided services to people living in that area. So they had all kinds of produce,
and all kinds of stuff. Then you had several theaters on Clark Street. You had
[00:03:00] one which was called the Standard, which we used to call [el marito?],
which, you know, was like 10 cents a pop, but it was horrible. And then down the
street was the Newberry, which was about a block away, and then about two or
three blocks from there was the Windsor, which was on Clark and Division. And
so those were the theater houses that we would go to when we were kids. But
2
�then I didn’t live there. You know, we lived maybe one or two years there. Then
we moved to 17th -JJ:
What type of housing was there?
CF:
Well, you know, we live in apartment buildings. And you know, there was a lot of
Puerto Ricans living there. They were all living, and right there, in the corner of
La Salle and Superior, there was also an orphanage that was run by the Catholic
archdiocese. There was a lot of orphans that lived there. I mean, the building is
still there. The area’s changed a lot, but that particular building is still there. A lot
of the housing that was there was a lot of apartment buildings. And so basically
that was the [00:04:00] kind of housing that was there. We used to live like on
the third floor, right there on Superior and La Salle. Then from there, we moved
to another building --
JJ:
The [Water?] Hotel was across the street?
CF:
The what?
JJ:
The Water Hotel. Was that across the street?
CF:
The Water Hotel?
JJ:
There was a hotel called the Water Hotel.
CF:
There was a bunch of hotels, man, on Erie, Ontario. I mean, they was part of
Skid Row in a way, back in the days. I mean, I was too young to, you know, even
realize, but I know that there was like on Clark Street, south of Chicago Avenue
there was numerous hotels that actually, you know, housed a lot of the people
that would -- at that time, you know, they were called bums, and they were just
bumming around. A lot of alcoholics, and it’s kind of interesting because it’s right
3
�in the outskirts of downtown that you had this thing going on, and then all of a
sudden when the city, you know, began to clean up, they really cleaned up, you
know. They surgically just removed all those people, just like they removed
people [00:05:00] from, you know, in other areas a little bit later on. But they
began by cleaning out that whole area. I mean, they’re still doing that, you know.
They’re doing it all the way on the west side now where the united -- the United
Center is, where the Bulls play basketball. The UIC, Cook County Medical
Center, and Rush Presbyterian. That whole area has been surgically removed,
and they’ve gotten rid of all the people who live in those areas. So like it started
there, but there was a lot of, you know, it was called Skid Row back in the days. I
don’t remember the name of the hotels, but there were quite a few that were, you
know, up and down the street. Also on State Street, too. So.
JJ:
So you were going to Ogden, and then from there where did you go after that?
CF:
From there, we went to -- we then moved to 1714 North Larrabee, which was
another, you know, Puerto Ricans were also moving to that area. And from there,
I went to a school called Newberry, [00:06:00] which today is called a Newberry
Academy. It’s like a school where a lot of the -- what is it, the talented, creative
kids go to school there now. But back in the days, it was like, there was a
neighborhood school, and there was a lot of us that would go to school there. It
was kind of like somewhat integrated. It was becoming more integrated as more
people lived there. So that’s how we actually -- where I grew up most of the time,
in terms of my whole teen years, on Larrabee Street. I used to hang out at St.
4
�Michael’s High School, St. Michael’s Church, which was like two blocks away
from my house, and -JJ:
So you didn’t go to St. Michael’s at all?
CF:
No, I didn’t go to -- I went to St. Michael’s in high school.
JJ:
Oh, in high school. You didn’t --
CF:
So in grammar school I went to, like, I went to Newberry and I went to [Arnold?].
JJ:
And Newberry was a --
CF:
Public school.
JJ:
Public school that was mixed, you said, at that time?
CF:
Yeah, it was integrated. It was integrated. It was integrated. Mostly, you know,
Puerto Ricans, whites, some Black kids. [00:07:00] There were some kids that
used to live on Burling Street where, you know, we used to call them gypsies,
you know. They were like some of the gypsy kids that lived there. But they were
like from different parts of Europe, and their families, like the [Horvaths?] and the
[Doonas?], and the [Laceys?]. Those were the names of the people who lived
there.
JJ:
So there were a lot of them, though.
CF:
There were a lot of them. There was like a whole block on Burling. I mean, it
used to be to the point that we used to get into fights with them. But then at the
end, at one time there used to be, you know, like they used to mess with us, you
know, as kids, and then eventually we outgrew them, and after a while we
actually -- there was more of us than there was of them. But at one time, they
5
�were kind of like these bullies kind of kids. Like I remember one guy named
Dennis Horvath, and [Gary Doona?] all those guys, you know.
JJ:
Yeah, I knew Gary Doona. I met him.
CF:
Gary Doona, yeah. All those guys, you know, they thought that they were like
some bad dudes, but in reality, you know, when it came down to nitty gritty, you
know, [00:08:00] they didn’t have no heart.
JJ:
So now when you were fighting them at that time, you were not part of a group.
CF:
Nah, it was just kid stuff, man. Yeah, you know, grammar school, you know,
sixth, seventh, eighth grade, you know, that kind of stuff. And like I said, after a
while, we actually outgrew them. You know, there was more of us than it was
them. You know, it was like, so there was always a lot of conflicts in grammar
school after school. But you know, like six --
JJ:
What were some of the conflicts?
CF:
Huh? I don’t know. I guess someone probably saying something to one of the
girls who actually was a cousin of them, or their sister, and they didn’t want -because you know, in a way, they were a little bit prejudiced, you know. Even
though they looked just like us, you know? They were like dark-skinned, oliveskinned people, but they were like -- they had some kind of -- some prejudices
and racist attitudes about, you know, who we were as a people. And you could
tell. You know, you could always tell that attitude about [00:09:00] you know, like,
they would not hesitate in calling somebody “nigger”. You know, and in a
moment’s notice. But yeah, but that was not even an issue. You know, after a
6
�while, they just like calmed down and chilled. So from there, you know, I went to
school at Arnold, and then my family also then bought their first house.
JJ:
So they moved from Larrabee --
CF:
From Larrabee to 1120 West Armitage, which is right on Armitage, near Sheffield.
Now when I was living on Larrabee, it was kind of interesting because I was
involved in that community. As a matter of fact, I actually played baseball, little
league baseball, in this one league called the Old Time Little League, and I was
probably like the Jackie Robinson of that league because I was the first Black,
Puerto Rican kid that played baseball in that whole league. And then, but that
was a whole thing in Lincoln Park where I grew up.
JJ:
What were some of the teams there? [00:10:00] You know, because I played in a
baseball team, too.
CF:
Yeah, but you know what that --
JJ:
But I never was too connected --
CF:
Well that little league, the teams were like --
JJ:
Oh, we played regular hardball in little league.
CF:
Right, it was a little league. But these teams were like named after baseball
teams. You know, like I was in the team called the Cubs, and they had the
Cardinals, and so, you know, it was an interesting little league.
JJ:
I was on the Leprechauns.
CF:
The what?
JJ:
The Leprechauns.
CF:
The Leprechauns?
7
�JJ:
Yeah, and there was an Italian baseball [medic?].
CF:
Yeah, well I played baseball [all but the ball?]. But the interesting thing about
Lincoln Park during that time period is that every Sunday, every weekend, the
place is packed because, you know, the passion of a Puerto Rican was baseball.
That was their thing. And so every Sunday you went to Lincoln Park, that place
was really packed. You know, my dad used to be a baseball manager. They
would use all the diamonds in the park. Every diamond, baseball diamond that
was there was being utilized. And you know, I remember them playing league
ball, but then they were playing softball, [00:11:00] the 12-inch fast pitch, which
was actually a league that was run by the Caballeros of San Juan for many,
many years. But so, you know, Puerto Ricans on Saturdays and Sundays were
usually in that park. I mean, if you go by there now today, it looks like a desert
because ever since, you know, people started giving them doubt, and Puerto
Ricans no longer use that park to play baseball anymore, and the high schools
closed down. So I don’t know what they’re doing with that land. I mean, it’s just
there, and nothing’s being done with it. The baseball -- I hardly ever see anyone
playing baseball there anymore.
JJ:
So you mentioned the Caballeros of San Juan. Who were they?
CF:
Caballeros of San Juan was this organization that was formed by the Catholic
archdiocese to actually I guess, you know, make life a little better for Puerto
Ricans that migrated to Chicago. Like, you know, the big migrations started
coming to Chicago like in 1946, and from 1946 to 1966, it was a major migration.
I mean, one of the biggest [00:12:00] migrations of one particular group from one
8
�area to the other, and there’s like thousands and thousands of Puerto Ricans that
migrated here, you know, looking for a better life, better jobs, and so a lot of the
people that came to live here were not -- you know, they were kind of like in a
way peasants, in a way. They were not, you know, educated people. They were
like people that, you know, were either working as peasants or farmers, and they
decided they wanted a better life for their kids and their families, so they just took
a chance, got on a plane, and came here. And they found work, and they did
okay because, you know, some of them raised families, you know, had their kids
go to college for the first time, and the end result is that we have some of the
major players that live in this city who actually came from those families. So it
wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t a group of really educated, sophisticated, middle
class [00:13:00] Puerto Ricans that migrated to the city. It was basically more the
less educated, poor peasant population that came from Puerto Rico from 1946 to
’66. I mean, now, you know, it’s a whole different ball game. But those were the
people that were living here like in the ‘50s and in the ‘60s. You know, and then
living in different areas of the cities where they came. They actually lived in the
south side, in Woodlawn. They moved to, you know, Clark Street, which is like
near Lincoln Park. I think they call that now Gold Coast. That’s what that
neighborhood’s called now there. Because you know that Chicago is broken into
all these, like, trendy neighborhoods. Gold Coast, they lived in Garfield Park,
they lived in Lincoln Park, Humbolt Park, and so they lived -- they were scattered
throughout the whole city. So -- and as they came here, they began to establish
their own little things. So with the Caballeros and the archdiocese there then,
9
�[00:14:00] I think that they were part of this process of actually recruiting Puerto
Ricans to come to work here. Because that’s how the whole migration came, you
know. There was an employment agency that went to Puerto Rico to recruit.
JJ:
What was the name of that?
CF:
I think it was Castle something. It starts with Castle. It was an employment
company, employment agency that recruited. And what they were doing is they
were looking for domestic workers and also people to work in the steel plants in
east Chicago and throughout the city. And so you know what they did is they
actually brought in like kind of like a labor force from the island to work here. And
so, you know, a lot of these folks came, they didn’t speak the English, they, you
know, it was a whole rude awakening coming from beautiful island to this winter,
this cold, cold-blooded, you know, big city, and so the thing is that [00:15:00] the
Caballeros and the archdiocese, given that, you know, most Latinos, mainly
Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, Latino and Latin American, and the Latin American and
the Caribbean, they’re all -- they’re Catholics. So this is a service that the
archdiocese put together, and they began programs of how to make Puerto
Ricans, you know, to -- what’s the word I’m looking for? To integrate, and to
actually melt into the melting pot, into the mainstream of here in the city of
Chicago. So they would give them, like, English classes. They would, you know,
do social programs to help them out. There was also this whole system of, you
know, recreation. That’s what they did, you know, so one of the recreations
would be baseball leagues. They created baseball leagues, softball leagues.
They used to have all these councils in different neighborhoods, Concilios, where
10
�a lot of the people from that area, based on a parish. So they would take a
church, [00:16:00] and they would have a council out of those churches. So like
in St. Michael’s, where I grew up in, it was Concilio Numero Tres, Council
Number Three. They were gone -- they were not given names, but they were like
by numbers, you know, Council Number Three, Number Four, Number Five.
They had one south of -- they had one in Chicago on Orleans, which is part of St.
Joseph. They had them all over the city. And so they come together, they played
baseball, they played dominos, they would have fundraisers, and they would
have dances. And it was an interesting, you know, clique of people helping each
other out back in those days. And then you also had the whole dynamics which a
lot of people have never even studied. I mean, I think that this is something that
is part of a history project in its own, is this whole thing of social clubs. Because
you know, nowadays in Chicago, you have, like, for example, one of the biggest
clubs you have here is La Sociedad Michoacana, [00:17:00] which is, you know,
a lot of these people from Michoacan, which actually from Mexico, will actually
have formed like a civic society, Los Hijos or La Sociedad Michoacana. And
these folks will send money back to even to the point where they actually have
bought ambulances and firetrucks with the money that they made here and they
sent it back. But that whole concept is a concept that it had been here already,
because the way that the social clubs work is that, for example, they would have
[La Sociedad de Ponce, Los Hijos de Vega Baja?], and they had their own little -besides what the Concilios had in the archdiocese, they had these private clubs.
And what they did is that they had dances, they raised money, they had their
11
�own, you know, officers, and they would, like, self-sustain. And so they also
provided and all this. So like if someone from Vega Baja was going to come to
Chicago, the people in Vega Baja would say, “Well you know, when you go to
Chicago, [00:18:00] check out the people in the Vega Baja club.” And you go
there, and you go there, you introduce yourself, and you’re going to find people
that either know you, know your family, know where you’re from, and they would
help you find housing and jobs and so forth. So there was -- it was kind of like an
interesting thing. I mean, I think -- I mean, that’s been one of my things of
actually going back and studying that whole concept with the social clubs, you
know, [Los Hijos de Ponce?], [Los Hijos des Caguas?]. Every town had a little
social club, man. And that kind of, you know, kind of kept the community
together in terms of knowing, you know, who was what, what was going on. So it
was kind of like our own little community being formed. Because you know,
down in Lincoln Park, we had what they call a Puerto Rican community center.
The Puerto Rican community center was located on Dickens and Halsted on the
second floor. They had a baseball team. They had -- they were there for years.
I think this guy named Mike [Rivera?] was the president of it, and [Florito?] and
all these guys were, [00:19:00] you know, people go there on weekends to play
dominos, play pool, hang out, have a beer. And you know, that’s how they were
able to keep themselves afloat from, you know, from all that other stuff, you
know, in terms of going crazy with the winter and everything else. So, you know,
the social club played a tremendous role in the survival of Puerto Rican migration
into the city of Chicago.
12
�JJ:
And what about -- there were other groups too like the, you know, did you know
anything about the Puerto Rican Congress?
CF:
Oh yeah. There were other groups. There were like [El Puerto Ricua?] which
won -- which actually was formed by --
JJ:
Had you ever gone in there?
CF:
Yeah, as a matter of fact, I remember the -- well I remember in the ‘60s, they had
their building right on Milwaukee, right over the -- right there by the expressway
on Milwaukee south of Augusta. Between Augusta and Chicago, there was a
little building there, and they -- I mean, I remember because I used to -- you
know, [00:20:00] we used to play baseball, used to play baseball against them. I
played baseball on one of the little league teams. It was called [El Posto
Boricua?]. And it was an army, VA post center, you know, for the army veterans.
A lot of the veterans that went to Korea that were veterans.
JJ:
Puerto Rican veterans?
CF:
Puerto Rican veterans, right, that went there. As a matter of fact, the
organization existed not until a couple of years ago. I don’t think that they’re
around anymore, but that was one of the -- and then you had the --
JJ:
What did they do? What did they do? You said you went in there?
CF:
They probably -- you know, I was young, so they probably, you know, did the
same thing. You know, did events and activities that promoted and helped
Puerto Rican veterans. You know, I mean, I think that was their target, you know,
in terms of helping Puerto Rican veterans and providing you know, again,
another civic organization to help, you know, the process where Puerto Rican
13
�veterans would get together. Then you had the Puerto Rican Congress, which is
another organization [00:21:00] that -- I think they were formed like in 1952 or
’53. And that organization also served the same role. Not the same role as the
church, because the Caballeros, you know, it was more of a Christian, religious
type of an organization, and they had all these different structures of -JJ:
But they were huge. I mean --
CF:
Oh, the Caballeros were huge. I mean, these other organizations were, you
know, they were more kind of like grassroots organizations where people came
in. Now the Puerto Rican Congress, what they did is, I remember they had the
one building was on Larrabee and North Avenue. They might have been
somewhere else before that, but that was like one of the first places. I used to
play baseball with their little league team, and they were a lot into baseball. Now,
it’s interesting because, you know, we’re getting ready to do -- there’s an exhibit
that’s going to be displayed, I think in April, first, second week -- next week, as a
matter of fact -- about the legacy of Roberto Clemente. It’s at the Smithsonian
Institute. It’s one of two exhibits that are going to be [00:22:00] presented. It’s a
traveling exhibit that they’re going to be presenting in Chicago. And so the
Roberto Clemente’s going to be happening within the next week or so, and it’s
kind of interesting. I mean, I’m thinking of going to the reception. I hadn’t really
decided but, you know, the whole thing about Roberto Clemente not only being a
great baseball player, but also, you know, the life lessons that he taught us in
terms of being humble, being, you know, a person with a lot of pride, and being
very proud of who he was, not only as a Black Puerto Rican, but as a great
14
�human being. So I think that, you know, that’s what we walk away from this life.
That’s why he actually was so revered because, you know, the guy even gave his
life, you know, going, you know, getting on this plane, and that was kind of like
suicide because he would have checked the plane, you know, the guy who
actually got Clemente to hire him, you know, had a defective plane. [00:23:00]
And the plane, you know, had not been, you know, it’s terrible what happened.
He could have avoided from going, from dying.
JJ:
So basically what happened to the plane?
CF:
The plane, as soon as they took off, it, you know, and the plane was like --
JJ:
It was loaded with what?
CF:
It was loaded with supplies, you know, because of the -- they had an earthquake
in Nicaragua. And Clemente had been there like maybe the year or two before to
play baseball in the Pan-American -- not the Pan-American, but [La Serie
Caribe?]. He went to play then. He said the people were a little beautiful, so he
actually wanted to give back. So he got on this plane, but the plane that -- the
whole story is that the guy who actually heard Clemente, you know, trying to look
for a plane to take supplies and, you know, he knew he had a defective plane.
And so he told Clemente, “Yeah, I can do it. And you can ride with us.” And that
plane was loaded up, it was defective, it was like -- so as soon as it took off, it
just went down. And they never recovered his body. But [00:24:00] that whole
thing of actually learning from him about how you -- I mean, a lot of us learned a
lot of things from him. One of the things that I learned in life from him is that -and so a lot of people also because Clemente was also criticized because a lot
15
�of, you know, the American media kind of felt that he was a hypochondriac -what’s the word that I can’t -JJ:
Hypochondriac.
CF:
Hypochondriac, where he was always complaining that he was hurt and stuff.
But he used to hate to give interviews because of the language barrier. He
couldn’t speak English as well, and so what the media would do is they would
actually verbatim repeat what he would say in broken English. And, you know,
and kind of like was making fun of him. And he kind of didn’t really care for that
kind of stuff. So he actually stayed to himself to a lot. So what happens -- and I
can relate to that, because I know that a lot of people -- I hear they think that -[00:25:00] they confuse, you know, your integrity and your self-respect and the
way you conduct yourself with being arrogant, you know, and that’s not the case.
I mean, even African American ballplayers who would criticize Clemente that he
was never, you know, a communicative guy. Well he couldn’t, you know, he
couldn’t talk to them. He couldn’t really communicate with them because he had
language barriers. But also, this whole thing about this pride and this integrity
and the self-respect that you have, a lot of people sometimes confuse that as you
being a showoff, or you think that you’re better than anybody else. No, that’s not
it. It’s that, you know, you had a certain pride. I mean, one of the things I’ve
learned, if I get kicked out of somewhere, I don’t go back. I mean, I learned that
from my mama, you know. I take my pride and walk away. You just don’t walk
away from -- you know, keep coming back and then slapping in your face. So
that was the kind of thing you learned from Clemente, but I was going to go to the
16
�event and actually tell people [00:26:00] that traditionally that’s our sport. You
know, Puerto Ricans have always traditionally -- they’re baseball folks. Not in
comparison to the Mexican community, which their main sport is soccer, right?
So the Clemente thing, I was just going to say that Clemente had a great
influence on our baseball thing, but in 1959, we also had the history in Chicago.
In 1959, there was a team from the Puerto Rican Congress that won the national
championship. A lot of people don’t know about that, but in 1959, there was a
team that entered into a tournament in the Park District. They won all the way up
the ranks. They won all the things, the state championship, and they ended up
representing Chicago in the Midwest, and they played in Dayton, Ohio. I think
that they played the championship game with a team from Birmingham, from
Alabama somewhere. And they beat them for the national championship. I
mean, I hear stories about -JJ:
They were from Lincoln Park?
CF:
[00:27:00] Yeah, some of them were from Lincoln Park, exactly. You had people
like [Benny Torres?], [Rigby Lleya?], you know, [Mochito Alves?] was one of the
managers on that team. There was, you know, a bunch of guys that were very
talented that came out. So you know, obviously that’s [an accomplishment?]. A
lot of Puerto Ricans don’t know that. And we had people out here who are now
in charge of our history who don’t talk about that kind of stuff, and those kind of
things are important to tell folks about. So, you know, and then you had people -because, you know, you had a kid right now. His name, I think, is [Victor Cruz?]
or something, who actually played with the Mets. He actually went to Clemente
17
�High School. So there was a product that came out of that. But we also had
people like Benny Torres, Rigby Lleya. We had [Ephraim Valentín?] who was
one of the Valentín brothers who actually -- who were assigned to a major league
contract including this guy [Reynaldo Ramos?], [Bobo’s?] brother, who spent like
two years in the minor leagues with the Yankees, [00:28:00] you know, who were
like teammates together. So it’s kind of interesting that we’ve contributed to the
betterment and growth of the city. You know, so in ’59, here we are, national
champions of an amateur baseball tournament that a lot of people really pay no
attention. And there are stories about the little second baseman was real short.
He’s in the hotel, and there’s this big old white guy who was saying, “Hey, you
must be the bat boy.” And so the little Puerto Rican second baseman says,
“Okay, I’ll be the bat boy.” So when they’re playing, the guy hits the ball way out
there, and he's running the bases, and he’s telling the guy, “I’m the bat boy you
were talking about yesterday.” Those are the kind of stories -- because you know
[Bob Medina?] also played on that team. And Bob Medina was one of the people
that was involved with the politics in the city. He was a campaign manager and
so forth. So he was also part of that whole baseball league. So we have a
tradition and we have a history of things that we’ve contributed to the growth of
the city.
JJ:
And that was with the [00:29:00] Puerto Rican Congress?
CF:
Those were the Puerto Rican Congress. So that was just an aspect. And then,
you know, the Puerto Rican Congress later got involved with -- because they
always worked with the youth. They was always trying to figure out different
18
�ways to channel that energy. And so then they got into the business of music,
and they actually formed a music academy, and as a result, some of our top
players now came out of that academy and are doing great things musically.
Like there’s this guy named Edwin Sanchez who’s actually a piano player. He’s
played with La India. He’s actually played piano with the Tito Puente Orchestra.
He played with Jimmy Bosch. He’s played with a bunch of -JJ:
He actually was married to my daughter, too, (inaudible).
CF:
Edwin?
JJ:
Edwin Sanchez, yeah.
CF:
No kidding. The piano player?
JJ:
Yeah, he’s the father of my granddaughter, yeah.
CF:
No shit. Edwin was?
JJ:
Yeah.
CF:
Wow. I didn’t know that. Because he’s married -- he got married --
JJ:
I’m ending this interview. (laughs)
CF:
Yeah, because I actually -- he got married again. [00:30:00] I didn’t know that.
JJ:
Yeah, he got married again.
CF:
I didn’t know that.
JJ:
Yeah, Nyla is his daughter.
CF:
Ah, okay. Yeah, Edwin is one of those guys that came out and, you know, people
like Mike Rivera, this kid that just died [Richie Biyo?] was one --
JJ:
Yeah, [Damon Rodriguez?] was --
19
�CF:
Right, the [tres?] player, your cousin. Yeah, they were all involved. I mean, I had
four of -- so he had came out with a bunch of bands. But a lot of the kids that
came out of those groups are actually -- as a matter of fact, there’s this record
company that actually just reissued all their albums called [Numero Uno?], the
record label. And they actually wrote the whole history. And they actually -- I got
into some shit with them, you know, because they were out to make money. It
wasn’t a thing of them trying to produce [this thing?]. They all wrote -- make
money, and they actually wrote a historical analysis of the whole music scene
back in the ‘70s, and I actually criticized them because the actual what they put
out was not [00:31:00] really the truth. You know, they were talking about the
music of the bands from the Puerto Rican Congress were like the top bands out
here and they weren’t. Because, you know, there were like bands even back in
the ‘50s, the music bands that were like -- when we were kids, you know, [Un
Maquaeño?], [Felipe La Grande Sonora?], there was a whole bunch of groups
that were playing. And you know, these were like little kids. And so their sound
was okay. It was mediocre, but there was already bands already in place that
were playing [some main?] music. But that’s just part of the growth and the
development of us living in the city.
JJ:
Okay, now what about -- were you familiar with some of the dances that St.
Michael’s was --
CF:
Oh yeah. They used to have -- you know, just to think about that, and it’s kind of
interesting that. You know, and I actually asked Jesus Rodriguez about this, how
the church would treat us [00:32:00] as parishioners.
20
�JJ:
Who is Jesus Rodriguez?
CF:
Jesus Rodriguez was one of the leaders of the church, of the Catholic church in
Chicago. He was [cursillistas?]. We used to have like [cursillos?] which actually
were like religious instructions and educational retreats that actually would
actually educate people on religious affairs. And so he was one of the
[cursillistas?] and was also a leader in the band -- the band -- a leader in the
church. And so he was involved in the St. Michael’s church and, you know, it’s
kind of almost as close to a priest as possible because what they would do is
they would have masses, and the priests were basically not -- they were not
Spanish-speaking priests. So the priest would do the mass in Latin or in English,
and then Jesus Rodriguez would actually translate, you know, what was being
said. But the interesting thing about that is that mostly [00:33:00] all the
churches would never allow the Puerto Ricans to have mass in the big church.
They would always have us do, you know, trying to treat us like second class
citizens. They would always have us have our masses either in the school
building next door or in the basement of the school building. Never in the big
church. And it wasn’t until years later that --
JJ:
At St. Michael’s they -- the Puerto Ricans did not go to the --
CF:
The main church.
JJ:
They had to --
CF:
They went to -- they had mass in the building right next door, which is like on the
side, remember? Because I used to go there. They said, “Get going.” I sent
coffee for free, man. I would go there. I would go to the big church and then
21
�right after that I would go and get some donuts and stuff, and that’s how they -and they used to pack, you know, they used to have two masses. I think one at
10:00 and one at 11:00, you know, to accommodate everybody.
JJ:
So when you say pack, I mean, how many --
CF:
I would say that each mass it was probably about 150, 200 people. [00:34:00] In
one setting with the kids, the whole family, because it’s whole families church,
you know. It’s the mother, the wife, the father, and the kids. And so they would
all go to church. And then they would have the mass, and then they would go
down to the basement. But never you would ever have church in the big church.
It was never there. And it wasn’t until later, and then they would have, like, major
dances at St. Michael’s, and they would have to have them in the gym, the high
school gym. And that’s really where we had the dances, and people come out,
and they --
JJ:
Did a lot of people come out dancing?
CF:
Yeah, a lot of people came out to the dances. They, you know, had Black bands,
and --
JJ:
About how many people came out?
CF:
I would say three or four hundred people. They would come from other concilios
just to actually support, you know, whatever fundraising event. So people would,
you know, if the Concilio Numero Uno had an event, and you were from this
Concilio, you would go there, and that’s how they began to share [00:35:00] with
each other in terms of support. So it was kind of like a tight-knit family based on
22
�this religious order, religious influence. So Jesus Rodriguez was one of those
people that actually was one of the church leaders.
JJ:
[And?] helped to organize the --
CF:
Yeah, he helped to organize the thing at St. Michael’s, but he was also involved
in the archdiocese. They had a committee called the Spanish Speaking
Committee, which is actually a part of the archdiocese, and what they would do is
that they would train and give training to Puerto Ricans that came. I think they
even provided in some cases housing for them to live there -- you know, they
were like single men -- to live there. And, you know, just basically helped people
make the transition from the island to here in terms of understanding how things
function around here. Because a lot of these folks that came from Puerto Rico,
man, came straight from the countryside. You know, probably didn’t even live in
the city in there, [and from?] the island. So they came straight from the
[00:36:00] countryside to this big, major city. And you could imagine, you know,
being lost if you didn’t have the right orientation.
JJ:
Okay, so now this is people that really were not going to the grammar school.
They were going to public school, but they were attending the mass, and a lot of
the activities in the --
CF:
Yeah, because the --
JJ:
But what was going on inside -- go ahead.
CF:
No because, you know, back in -- I mean, I don’t think people really could have
afforded to send their kids to Catholic school. The ones that did, you know,
because if you look at the average family back in those days, you probably had
23
�families that -- it wasn’t just a boy and a girl. You had five, six, seven. And my
situation was the same situation for a lot of people where, you know, your family
was like your father and your mother, and you had like maybe four sisters and
three brothers, so it was like six, seven, or eight of you. So what the father would
do is that he would leave to come to Chicago or wherever it is he was [00:37:00]
going to come to the United States because it was basically -- I mean, as far as
they went west was Chicago. You know, they’d start out in New York and then
they’d start exploring other areas, you know, like Cleveland, Philadelphia, east
Chicago, Lorraine, Milwaukee. And so the father would come first, and then he
would send for the mother. And once he got settled, he would send for the
mother and maybe two or three kids. And then the other kids would stay with
their grandparents. I was one of those. Me and my young sisters were raised by
my grandparents. And then later, years later, then we actually came. And that
was the story of a lot of us that, you know, that the father and the mother could
not afford to bring all the kids, so they brought them piecemeal by piecemeal,
one or two at a time. And so you had families with a lot of kids. It wasn’t this
thing of birth control or controlling population. It was like, you know, they come
as they pop. They come as they pop. And so you had large families, so a lot of
families [00:38:00] either the kids, what they did as soon as they turned to a
certain age that they could work, a lot of them would drop out of school and go
work with their father or in the factory distributing.
JJ:
Were they encouraged to work?
24
�CF:
Well I think that they were encouraged to work. You know, I think that -- I don’t
know. A lot of people would say, “Well, you know, education’s the way out,” but I
think that a lot of -- in terms of people were living in such poverty that every little
dollar helped. So as soon as, you know, and so the kid who was already 14-, 15, 16-year-old who came here and went to school. I mean, I have photographs of
my sisters being like eight, nine, ten years old, you know, I have a class picture of
them. And being in the same classroom were kids that were like 13, 14 years of
age. All in the same school. So you know, you’ve got a 13-, 14-year-old, and
you’ve got them going to class with kids that are eight, nine, and ten years old,
after a while that’s going to frustrate [00:39:00] a young kid.
JJ:
Why were they --
CF:
Because of the fact that there was no bilingual programs, and you actually had all
these Latino kids in the same classroom. I don’t know how it was done, but you
had kids that were like 13, 14, 15. By the time they got to be 15, 16 years old
and they were old enough to work, they would just go work, and the figure, you
know, “School ain’t going to do nothing for me. I won’t be able to catch up.”
Plus, a lot of these kids also came from the countryside. And you know, that
whole thing of orientation of, you know, pursuing education, higher education, I
don’t think it was in the minds of a lot of these kids. And their parents did not
know what -- many of them didn’t even finish high school. Even grammar school.
I know my mom went to school up to the third grade. So yeah, you know, people
that were uneducated, who did not know, had no sort of idea, but a lot of the
parents did. A lot of the parents pushed for [00:40:00] you know, “My kids are
25
�going to do better.” And they kept pushing, and did all they can to make sure that
their kids got an education and went on to high school and on to college and so
forth. And so some -- it paid off for some of us.
JJ:
And what about St. Michael’s? You said you went to St. Michael’s High School.
What was the population there?
CF:
Well St. Michael’s High School when I was there was like -- I was there ’65, ’66.
It was, you know, it wasn’t coed. It was boys and girls, and it was really
integrated. It was Blacks, whites, you had, you know, the Italians from Taylor
Street. You had Puerto Ricans that were coming from, you know, because it
wasn’t just kids from the neighborhood. They would come in from different areas.
So you had the white kids, you had Italian kids, you had Black kids that came in
from Cabrini-Green, and so people who could afford to send their kids there
would send them. Because they had a grammar school and they had a high
school. And so [00:41:00] it was an integrated setting.
JJ:
Okay, now going back a little bit during Newberry and that -- because there were
-- we talked about the social clubs, but there were also neighborhood clubs,
right? At that time.
CF:
Well the social clubs were the neighborhood clubs.
JJ:
The social clubs were the neighborhood clubs.
CF:
Right. That’s what I was talking about.
JJ:
Didn’t they call them street clubs too? They were --
CF:
Well, you know, you probably had these clubs that actually --
JJ:
I’m talking about like the Caballeros and the --
26
�CF:
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You’re talking about the youth clubs.
JJ:
The youth clubs.
CF:
Yeah, the clubs that --
JJ:
Those were different.
CF:
Yeah, those were different. Those were like made up of young youngsters --
JJ:
And how did they form? How did they --
CF:
Well, you know, you actually --
JJ:
The Continentals, you were a member of --
CF:
Right, right. The Continentals was a group of -- you know, basically it was a
group of kids that hung out, you know, they hung out together, and they decided
to form their own club. Now, we used to be the Continentals, and we used to
hang out at Lincoln Boys Club. And, you know, it was [00:42:00] [Danny
Rodriguez?], [Juan Columbus?], kids that hang out together and, you know, so
Danny was one of the people that actually formed the Continentals, and it's kind
of interesting because, you know, we used to identify each other with these
sweaters. Our sweaters was kind of like the American flag. It was red, white,
and blue, and we had an emblem, and the emblem meant something for
something. So we used to -- it was kind of like an organized kind of thing where
we had a youth worker from the Boys Club helping us organize ourselves, pay
dues, bring in money, and raise money, buy our sweaters, do events, and so
forth. So it’s kind of like a youth social organization. Then you had the YMCA
where they had your group, the [Alloys?] were there. Then you had the older
guys that -- and you know, I know a lot of people equate these guys with being
27
�gangs, but I used to call them clubs anyway. But then you had the older guys,
which were the Black Eagles and the Paragons, and those guys, they formed
because [00:43:00] of this thing of protection. They used to get beat up all the
time, and they decided to form the groups, and they decided they were not going
to take an ass whooping anymore. Because they used to get, you know, it used
to be a lot of -- back in those days there was a thing with rumbles and, you know,
knives and chains. It wasn’t this thing of automatic rifles and guns, and that’s
how you get things done. You drive by and you shoot. Back in the days, none of
us had cars. So you couldn’t do no drive-bys.
JJ:
Yeah, so you said that they were tired, they were not going to take this anymore.
CF:
Right, you know --
JJ:
What were they tired of?
CF:
Well, you know, I think that there was a lot of conflict, you know, given the fact
that we were moving into these communities that were already occupied by
already other immigrants that had been here, Irish, Italians, Germans, and we’re
coming into those neighborhoods because as we were coming in, a lot of them
began to freak out. And they decided to do the white flight. You know, it was
either Blacks or Puerto Ricans that were coming in, and they decided to move
out. [00:44:00] But even the ones that stayed, actually they always felt that, you
know, it’s like every immigrant’s got to shit on the next immigrant that comes
over. And so, you know, a lot of these immigrants that, you know, that they went
through the same shit that we went through. And even though we were American
citizens, we went through the same experiences that a lot of immigrants went
28
�through. Back in those days, Puerto Ricans were being picked up and we were
being held as immigrants because they didn’t have any papers. And, you know,
we were getting treated the same when people realized and found out, “Well,
these are Puerto Ricans. They are American citizens. They don’t need to have
papers.” I mean, that’s documented for a fact, that a lot of Puerto Ricans actually
experienced that. And they, you know, even though we’re American citizens, we
got treated the same way as many of the immigrants are being treated today. So
you had these things where, you know, the abuses, and you had -- and yet our
parents would take that kind of stuff, and say, you know, “Don’t rock the boat.
[00:45:00] We’ve come here to work,” or, you know, humble, quiet people. You
know, they had that attitude. They didn’t want any trouble. But I think that the
kids, you know, as soon as you became part of the -- and integrated into the
society and began to form our little cliques and neighborhoods -JJ:
And there were a lot of them. You mentioned several names.
CF:
Yeah, yeah, there was a lot of them. There were like the Latin Kings started,
even though the Latin Kings had become a universal gang, you know, all over the
country. But the Latin Kings started here, and they actually started, you know, in
Humboldt Park west side. But back in our area, we had the Black Eagles and we
had the Paragons. And those guys were kind of like older guys and, you know,
we kind of looked up to them. But it was a thing that -- it’s not like today. Today
you have this territory, and you had these, like, you know, “You don’t wear my
color and I don’t wear yours.” There’s this whole thing about colors and so forth.
But back in the days, [00:46:00] the older guys would look out for us, you know?
29
�And we actually couldn’t wait until we could be part of their thing. And so it was
kind of like a family nucleus.
JJ:
So if you were in a different club, would they still would not fight against you?
CF:
They were not fighting against -- we’re not fighting against each other. I mean,
the ones we were fighting against were the aggressive, you know, the white
gangs, the Italian gangs. Like back in our neighborhood, we had that place
called Roma’s, you know, Roma’s Pizzeria. And a lot of them white boys there,
you know, they wanted to whip our asses and stuff, until the same thing that I
was mentioning with the gypsies, they came out, and they would kick our asses.
And then all of a sudden, we became the majority, and we actually had -- we shut
them down. You know, they got shut down, and so -- but there was a lot of
conflicts back in those days, so a lot of the guys actually formed these clubs in
order to protect themselves. And they were not about to do, you know, like, take
a slap in the face and keep on walking. They were just going to confront. And
they were young people, you know? And young folks are not going to take that
[00:47:00] crap, you know? You get this -- think that you will live forever and no
one could ever mess with you, and that kind of a thing. So I think that that’s how
that whole thing with the social clubs. Now every social club -- the Black Eagles
had -- back in the days, that was the thing, the sweaters, you know? Everyone
had a sweater. The Paragons had the sweater. I think that they had the same
color you guys had. They were black and purple. And the Young Lords are like
black and purple. They were what, black and pink? That was the Paragons?
JJ:
Yeah.
30
�CF:
We had red, blue, and black. The Black Eagles were black and white.
JJ:
Your colors were what again?
CF:
Blue, red, and white, just like the American -- yeah, with the stripe. And you
know, the sweaters were kind of cool. That was what identified us, when you
went to, like, you went to dances and you went to sock hops, we would have our
sweaters folded, you know. It was just an interesting kind of a situation which is
totally different from --
JJ:
But people were not fighting each other.
CF:
No, ain’t nobody -- nobody was fighting each other.
JJ:
And you had said, you know, fighting against -- so it was like a [00:48:00] fight
against the whites.
CF:
The whites, the Italians, whoever was kind of messing. And then later on, it just
got crazy, man. It just got crazy. You know, the drug thing came about.
JJ:
So what does that mean? What do you mean, the drug came about?
CF:
Well you know, I mean, I think that we all noticed it when all of a sudden the
country, you know, when things got crazy in the ‘60s in this country, you know,
and all of a sudden you just saw a lot of militancy and a lot of radical politics, and
everybody was up in arms. And all of a sudden, you began to see this influx of
drugs in the community, man. It’s like all of a sudden people started, you know,
you started seeing people getting high on heroin. All of a sudden out of nowhere,
the heroin was kind of like, you know, and wherever it is, I mean, there’s a lot of
theories.
JJ:
Was there a lot of heroin going around at that time? Or was it just --
31
�CF:
Well, it came about. It came about that in the 19-- mid-’60s, [00:49:00] ’66, ’67,
all of a sudden these communities began to see a lot of drugs going into the --
JJ:
(inaudible) there’s an epidemic of cocaine, and at that time there was an
epidemic of heroin.
CF:
Yeah, heroin. It was a lot of heroin that was going around. It was cheap. You
know, people were doing it. They’re smoking marijuana. There was a lot of
alcohol. But a lot of it that I think did the most damage was the heroin. The
heroin actually, you know, caught up with a lot of people, and a lot of people just
went in and never recovered from it. And so unfortunately, I used heroin at one
time, you know, back in the days. And I am not ashamed to say it. But I actually
-- I guess I must have some good angels that actually guided me in the right
direction because I could have easily become hooked too. But I chose not to go
that route. But I know a lot of folks that went that route, and they used --
JJ:
Well you also had an education that helped, too. Now you went --
CF:
To what?
JJ:
Through the [00:50:00] St. Michael’s, and then you went and got --
CF:
Yeah, yeah.
JJ:
Then you went to college.
CF:
Yeah, I did. But you know, but my education --
JJ:
In fact, what do you -- you have a master’s degree?
CF:
Yeah, I got a master’s. But I didn’t use any of that shit. I didn’t use any of my
degrees.
JJ:
But that contributed.
32
�CF:
Oh yeah, yeah. I actually, you know, my thing was that I didn’t get up at St.
Michael’s was --
JJ:
You don’t think it contributed at all?
CF:
What?
JJ:
You don’t think that helped you at all?
CF:
Oh, it helped me. Man, I’ll tell you where it helped me the most. When we were
part of the program. I actually went to, you know, like to me, I am actually
working on a theme right now. I have a writing -- creative writing group that
meets once a week, and we’re working on a theme on freedom right now. And
so I wrote a piece as the group leader saying, you know, trying to remember well
what is the first time that I really sensed freedom? Because freedom, you know,
some people’s freedom are other people’s burden. Because you’ve got someone
saying that, you know, I’m going to free this country. I’m going to build a railroad,
you know, all the way from here [00:51:00] to the end of San Francisco. But that
means that -- who’s going to build that railroad? You’re going to build that
railroad, you’re going to make the money, you’re going to exploit the workers,
and you’re going to bring in work, and you’re going to give them like ten cents an
hour or a nickel an hour. You’re going to exploit them. And they’re going to build
the railroad for you. And you’re going to take all this glory. So you have the
freedom to do whatever you want to do. You have the freedom to scam and to
rip off people. And so I wrote a piece about my first taste of freedom. And my
first taste of freedom was going to grammar school and being in the same
classroom, you know, throughout the whole day. In the morning, you’d be in the
33
�same. Then when you go to high school, all of a sudden, you go to different
classes. You get out and you go to woodshop, you go to gym, and just like being
in college. You have that independence. So with me, it was great shit. You
know, you get to go outside and go to lunch, woodshop, and then at the rest of
the day I would be cutting class with the rest of my homies, you know. Be out
there, “Y’all, come on. Let’s go. Let’s go hang out.” [00:52:00] And so that
caught up with me. So I got kicked out of Waller High School, out of the public
school. So I got another chance, and I went to St. Michael’s, and I also got
kicked out of St. Michael’s because I actually told a story about me being a bully.
I was a bully. I used to take, you know, all the little white kids, and I would say,
you know, “Give me your money or I’ll kick your ass.” So I would take quarters
and dimes. I was like the tough guy, you know? And I was a really bully. I mean,
I am sure that people see me now -- I mean, I’m just like -- I’m going to be 63
years old. But if people see me now, and they see me on TV doing all the stuff
that I do, I’m sure that some of those kids that I actually took their money from
when I was in school are saying, “That son of a bitch took my money. He actually
bullied my ass,” you know? So I used to bully these kids. And one time, you
know, and I used to work. I used to have jobs working at Tom’s Shoe Store, like
on weekends, so I was always dressed up really well, and had money. I mean, I
always worked as a kid. You know, I worked washing windows or [00:53:00]
doing whatever. And I remember one time this kid came to me and says -- I got
into a thing with a kid in the classroom, and so I told this kid to pick up, you know,
so kick him and he knocked the books over. And I told him to pick it up. “Pick up
34
�my book.” So this other kid who actually happened to be another tough kid who
actually happened to probably be in another white gang, told the other kid, you
know, “Don’t pick up shit for him.” And so I said, “Oh yeah? I’m going to talk to
you later.” So we went out to lunch, and I slapped this kid. And this kid said, “I’m
coming back tomorrow and I’m going to shoot your ass,” you know? So I said,
“Oh yeah?” So I went and I got all the guys from the neighborhood, Richie,
[Bobokin?], all the young kids that, you know, were looking for a fight. I said,
“Hey man, this guy said he was going to shoot me. So you guys are going to
come down.” (This is a story -- I don’t know if you ever heard it.) So I actually
had all these guys come down from the neighborhood. Because back when I
was in St. Michael’s High School, this was like ’67, ’66, [00:54:00] they all came,
and they all came the next day to the school from Armitage and Halsted and
Sheffield, and but the kid never showed up to class. So these guys were ready
to fight. So as soon as they let school out, those guys started beating up
everybody. They beat up the nuns. They beat up the priests, beat up the
students. They just -- anybody would kick their ass. So everybody got whipped
that day. And so the next day they brought me into the office and said, you know,
“You’re lucky we don’t call the police on you because, you know, what happened
here yesterday was pretty bad. And so what we’re going to do is we’re going to
expel you. We’re going to kick you out of school.” And that was just another
strike against me. And so I was running out of strikes. So then from there, I got
an opportunity to go to Argonne National Laboratory. And Argonne National,
that’s when we were all there. You and a bunch of us, and it’s kind of interesting
35
�because I was just talking about that this week, yesterday, in that group meeting,
in terms of how [00:55:00] it was back in the days, how we were freaking out.
Because they used to call us hardcore students.
JJ:
What was Argonne National Laboratory?
CF:
Argonne National Laboratory was the national laboratory – (dog barks) hey, stop.
It’s in Lamont, and this is where they actually [spotted the Chicago?], part of the
atomic – (dog barking) stop! Part of the atomic energy commission. This was
like where they split the first atom, and this was a laboratory out in Lamont. And
they have an atomic accelerator out there. So what they did is they actually -back in the days, in terms of providing opportunities to minorities, young minority
students, they actually set up a program there to help students not only finish
their GED but also to get them some kind of skills in terms of learning how to
work. Learning to work.
JJ:
This was for at risk youths.
CF:
Yeah, for, you know, for at risk -- (dog barks) hey, stop! For, you know, youth that
were at risk. [00:56:00] So a lot of us -- we were all at risk. As a matter of fact,
they used to call us hardcore students, or hardcore people. You were there. And
so what they did is they had all these, like, minority young people going out there.
You had members of the Blackstone Rangers, the Disciples. As a matter of fact,
the [peace to our nation disciples?] when they were out there, they were in
peace. Because you know in Chicago, they were at war with each other. So
there were us, you know, and so I know the scientists were going crazy because
every time they looked out the window, they saw these, like, you know, young
36
�Blacks and Puerto Ricans with berets and with different color sweaters, and they
were trying to figure, “What the hell is going on?” But I actually took advantage
of that program, and what I did is I actually signed up to be in the photo
department. So at 17 years old in the photo department, they took me under
their wings, gave me a camera. You know, I used to wash prints as a job, and
then in the afternoon I would take classes for GED. I know [00:57:00] a lot of you
guys did a lot of different things. I heard stories about you guys sleeping in
closets and shit like that when you were supposed to be working. But you guys
were abusing your privilege. But (laughter) you guys were abusing your
privilege, but I took advantage of it because I actually had an opportunity to learn
the skill of photography. And what I did is they gave me a camera and gave me
all this film, and it was like really, really nice folks who were there.
JJ:
Who was the president or the teacher?
CF:
Well, you know, the guy who used to run that whole program was Mike Lawson.
He used to be the guy who was in charge of making sure that he coordinated --
JJ:
And where did he come from, Mike Lawson?
CF:
Mike, you know, Mike was kind of like a social worker. He was probably involved
with the church, and that’s how we met him. You know, he was a youth worker
with folks out here. So that’s how you got us all --
JJ:
I think you grabbed me [and pulled in?] or something.
CF:
Who?
JJ:
You or somebody who was --
37
�CF:
It was Danny, I think. Danny was the one that got all of us in that program. So
there was a bunch of us, you know. [00:58:00] I had photographs in that place,
you know. I remember [Sexto?] used to be in there. You, myself, Danny, and it
was so weird because I know -- I don’t know, there was a couple of times where
we missed our rides or our buses and we had to go down to [U Chicago?] and
grab the bus there to go there. But sometimes there was this brother there, this
African American guy who used to drive. He was not part of our program, but he
used to give us a ride. And the guy, you know, like before he’d go, he’d take a
couple of swigs of vodka, and he’d be driving on the road, and he’d be late. So
he’d be driving on the exit ramp trying to beat the traffic. It was crazy. It was you
know, like, being young and, you know, you get into all those adventures and
stuff.
JJ:
But it was while we were trying to get our GEDs.
CF:
Yeah, we’re all trying to get our GED, and I think it helped me a lot because then
what I did is I left that program, and then I turned to junior college, to Central
[YMCA?] college, and I actually eventually got my GED. Because I was almost
like three months before [00:59:00] grad. When I got kicked out, I was going to
be graduating three months later. And right before graduation, I got kicked out.
So, you know, I went to [U Central YMCA?], and then from there I transferred to
Northern Illinois University. And from there I came back to the city, and I went to
UIC. Got a BA, and then I got a master’s, a master’s degree in criminal justice.
But I didn’t use any of that stuff. I actually just used the education and I moved
on and did other things.
38
�JJ:
Now, the Young Lords came out, you know, were like more [to the actual ones?]
they were one of the groups in the neighborhood. But then they kind of
transformed into a political group. And it was right around that time that they -you know what I’m talking about.
CF:
Right. Well, you know, back in the time, I mean, as you begin to get older, you
begin to get an education, you begin to be exposed to a lot of different things,
and you know, this is the time that, you know, we had people like Malcolm X.
[01:00:00] We had people who actually were really rocking the boat, you know,
and the whole country was in disarray. The hypocrisy of this country was coming
out, and it was being put on display. People were just kind of like just reacting,
you know. The youth were rebelling against their parents, and they were
rebelling against, you know, the status quo. Black people wanted rights. The
whole civil rights movement. It was a lot of stuff going on. And so that also
touched us, because we were part -- you know, it wasn’t that we were, like,
separate. You know, we also had our own issues that we were dealing with, and
one of the issues that we were dealing with was this whole issue of being
displaced, being in a community that we had lived there for a long time. Because
you know what? I mean, I don’t hardly hear this anymore, but the whole phrase
of the hood. The hood. That’s the way we used to identify our community. You
know, we’re going, “I see you in the hood. I’ll be back.” You don’t see that
anymore because I don’t think people really have those ties [01:01:00] with
neighborhoods now. Nowadays, you know, it’s like a lot of these neighborhoods
are very, you know, people will live -- they live there three or four years, and then
39
�they move on. So there’s never really that relationship that you develop as
looking at your community, as being part of your family, part of your home, your
house. And that’s the way we looked at our neighborhood. You know, our
neighborhood was this kind of neighborhood that, you know, like I said, when we
would see people, like, far away, we’re on a [picnic?] you’d say, “Hey, I’ll see you
back in the hood. I’ll see you on the block,” you know? And we knew when we
were talking about the block, we would be back in the neighborhood. So there
was this, like, emotional, spiritual tie to the community. And so -- but it was great.
It was a great -- I mean, I really loved growing up in Lincoln Park. It was really,
truly integrated, even though the majority of the people, after a while, after the
’62, ’63, ’64, it became more predominantly Puerto Rican. [01:02:00] It was still
an integrated community, but the loving thing about it is that it was kind of like a
village. And the village was that everybody looked out for everybody. Everybody
knew everybody. I remember, you know, if I did something, you know, Luis, the
owner of the grocery store, would say, “I’m going to tell your dad.” And shit, when
my dad got home, you know, like he’d say, “Come here. Luis told me you did
this.” You know, like, “And you better, you know, you’re punished,” or whatever.
So it was that kind of a thing where people look out for each other, and, you
know, kids would be out there playing. You have all, you know, Adams
Playground. You had the People’s Park. You had that little Bauler playground,
the little playground down Halsted. It was called the Bauler Playground. You had
Arnold Park. So you had all these little, you know, Oscar Meyer, we would hang
40
�out. So you know, there was a lot of baseball, a lot of recreation areas that we
could hang out. And it was a great place to live in terms of -JJ:
[01:03:00] So you’re painting -- I’m looking at geography now. So you’re talking
about the Bauler Playground on Burling and Armitage?
CF:
Right, Burling and Armitage.
JJ:
And then the Oscar Meyer playground all the way on Clifton.
CF:
On Clifton. And then you had the Adams Playground, which is right south of -beyond St. Theresa.
JJ:
Beyond St. Theresa’s. And then you were talking about the Lincoln Park.
CF:
Then you had Lincoln Park, which is the bigger park.
JJ:
So this is a big area that we’re talking about.
CF:
Oh yeah, it was a big area.
JJ:
And that’s primarily Puerto Rican at that time.
CF:
That’s primarily Puerto Rican, and it was even extended all the way up to Wrigley
Field, up in, you know, right around --
JJ:
Addison.
CF:
Addison and Halsted and Clark. And so, you know, Lakeview, Addison [Bill?],
which is called Addison [Bill?] today, was up, even up in that area. So, you know,
Puerto Ricans had expanded in all these areas, and so, you know, it was really
great. You know, at times you felt like this was your neighborhood, [01:04:00]
and this is the way you ran, and then all of a sudden --
JJ:
So you mean like the north side of Chicago.
CF:
Right.
41
�JJ:
The north.
CF:
It was kind of like the mid-north of Chicago, and then, you know, all of a sudden
lo and behold, there was a lot of things that were going on where the city was
doing all this planning. You know, we’re definitely, you know, this would probably
be in the era of the Black Panther party. This is part of the radical politics. And,
you know, and then we’re beginning to see the consequences that were taking
place as a result of realtors and developers and speculators coming in and
buying up property, raising the rent, moving people out. And after a while, you
know, we began to see that this is the plan. There was a plan of moving people
out, and this is how the whole thing with the Young Lords came about.
JJ:
And so you also became active within the Young Lords.
CF:
Yeah, I became active.
JJ:
So a lot of the different groups, also --
CF:
Yeah, but I --
JJ:
Because that was the whole community.
CF:
Right. But I was already, you know, [01:05:00] in order to -- to be part of the
Young Lords is the thing, because I know that you probably had to talk some of
the guys into it. Because a lot of the guys were, you know, they had to be
educated. A lot of the guys did not have the discipline -- did not have the
discipline of knowing, you know, what this is all about. All they know is like, “Hey,
who’s fucking with us? Let’s go kick their ass.”
JJ:
Exactly.
42
�CF:
That’s how, you know, I would describe it. I would describe these guys, and they
were not -- I mean, I was already had begun to, you know, by the fact that I was
going to college, I had begun to get exposed to a lot of these, like, writers and
philosophers and activists and all kinds of different politics. It was a really easy
transition for me to get in. So, you know, I jumped on board. Actually --
JJ:
Well you were saying that for the other people, it was more they were just there
because they had been in the Young Lords.
CF:
They had been in the Young Lord gang --
JJ:
And they were kind of following --
CF:
The Young Lord Club, not the gang. The club.
JJ:
Oh yeah, the club. And then [01:06:00] so they’re following the club structure.
CF:
Exactly.
JJ:
And then that’s why they were able to stay involved through the construction, but
we also had other Young Lords that were already politicized.
CF:
Right, right. You had some that were politicized (audio cuts out) those get to the
other guys. Not everybody got it, because not everybody actually fell in the
cliques. A lot of people said, “You guys are crazy. You know, they’re nuts. Let
me just go back and hit my pipe, and I’ll be happy, you know, with what I’m
doing.” But I think that a lot of folks actually decided to jump on board, and then
there was other people that came and jumped on board because of the fact that
they couldn’t believe what the hell we were doing. I mean, they couldn’t believe
that, you know, even the -- I mean, when you read this history, you know, you
had [penal elements?] coming from New York that actually are individuals that
43
�already, you know, college graduate or attending college or who had a totally
different experience because the Puerto Rican experience in New York
[01:07:00] is a longer experience because they began coming there at the turn of
the century. And all of a sudden, you know, you keep hearing about these guys,
the Young Lords. They’re taking over churches. They’re doing all this fighting
and politicizing. And so, you know, a lot of people took notice. And so you began
to attract people also that were involved in radical politics who also came and
joined the group.
JJ:
What were some of the things that the Young Lords did there that --
CF:
Well some of the things that the Young Lords did there -- well I remember, you
know, they’re taking over this church because before the church was taken over,
I used to work in the church. I used to be -- there used to be a program called
the Joint Youth Development Corporation, and that was run by the city. And at
the church, at the Armitage Methodist Church, [Mochito Alvez?] was kind of like
the assistant director, so we had a little center there. And I used to run the
recreational center, the gym, and [01:08:00] I had all these kids playing
basketball. And so I was already involved and doing social programming, you
know, in terms of athletics. And so I was young myself, and so I guess I got hired
because I used to play baseball with Mochito, and he got me the job. And so that
was in college. So but then the transition came where -- and I remember the
reverends that were there. It was kind of interesting. They had a reverend who
was Cuban. His name was Herrera I think.
JJ:
Sergio.
44
�CF:
Sergio. Sergio Herrera. And it’s kind of interesting because his dad -- they were
Cubans. They were Cuban immigrants that came, and they actually fled the
whole thing that happened in Cuba with Castro. And I remember one year -- this
was before the Young Lords. This was a story that there was this white guy who
also got hired to --
JJ:
You mean before the Young Lords were political.
CF:
Right, right, right. Before the Young Lords even took over this church. So we
had this guy who was crazy. It was some white guy that actually [01:09:00] came
in. He was an instructor. And I guess he was actually teaching kids about
expression. So he actually told people, “I want you to go up to people, and when
you go up in front of them, just start screaming. You know, ahh. You know.” So
they went and did that to Sergio’s father, and I thought the old man was going to
have a heart attack, you know? Because they all went and started going like that
to the old man. But it was just kind of interesting the kind of events that were
going there. It was just purely social, you know. I used to, like, have the kids
play basketball. You know, I used to get films about baseball. So there was
nothing really political, nothing out of the ordinary. Just like, you know, being
another boy’s club, another YMCA. But then the Young Lords came and they
took over. And I remember the painting of the murals. That was like very
interesting because it was the first time that, you know, we changed some murals
on the wall that represented revolutionary figures. [01:10:00] You know, you had
Adelita, who was a Mexican revolutionary. You had Pancho Zapata, who was
another one. You had Emeterio Betances, Albizu Campos, and Lolita Lebron
45
�who were like, you know, revolutionary symbols. And then the biggest symbol
was when you entered the side door, you had a big picture of Che Guevara. And
at the time the Che Guevara picture was painted on the wall, the Herreras were
still living in that church. They were living there. And I know they freaked out.
Because they left Cuba running away from, you know, from this Communist
tyrant, supposedly the enemy of the people, and all of a sudden, you know, here
they’re back facing, you know, the same situation. But some of the programs
that were actually being offered at that church were like health programs. You
know, there was a health clinic that was provided because at the time, you know,
a lot of the folks, even though you had the Cook County Hospital, [01:11:00]
there was really not a lot of health programs out there. You know, infant mortality
was probably at a very high risk. So we were providing people at least with a
basic examination, a basic –- yeah.
JJ:
If you can hold that thought for one second, the health program. Okay, I just did
want to ask you about [Samuel Herrera?]. Because yeah, I believe he was
transferred later to Los Angeles or something like that. But so there was a
Cuban congregation, you were saying, also?
CF:
I don’t even know what the congregation was, because I never went to the
church.
JJ:
But he was Cuban, and he had just -- and he fled Fidel Castro.
CF:
Right. He fled.
JJ:
Now, did he ever talk about that?
46
�CF:
Nah, he never really -- he never really got into discussion with him. He was a
very mild-mannered guy. He, you know, and I don’t think he really wanted to rock
the boat either. Because I don’t think he ever got into confrontation with any of
us. So he never really rocked the boat. He came out of that whole Methodist
church thing. And again, he was also working with the late Bruce Johnson
[01:12:00] back in the day. So I know -- I don’t know what kind of relationship
they had. I know that he was very mild-mannered with me, and so we talked, but
we never really talked politics. But I did know that his parents and himself came
out of Cuba. And I think he probably had already been here, because he already
spoke English. But his parents had just probably had just left Cuba because of
the fact that, you know, what was going on there.
JJ:
Were there a lot of Cubans in that area?
CF:
I don’t know -- no, there was not a lot of Cubans in that area. No, there was not
a lot of Cubans in that area. It was mostly Puerto Ricans and Mexicans. But
mostly Puerto Ricans. Cubans were, you know, not that many. And I don’t even
know what the congregation was because I never went to church there.
JJ:
Getting back, okay, you were talking about the health program?
CF:
Yeah, you know, one of the programs that we established was a health clinic, and
so basically you had some interns that were at the County Hospital, some
coalitions were made, [01:13:00] and so they were coming in. They were
providing at least basic examination. If they needed to make a referral to the
hospital, they would do that. And so that was one of the services that were being
provided that was not being provided anywhere. Because the only way people
47
�would even have any access to health is if they went to a private doctor or they
went to the hospital. And in some cases, if they had no insurance, you know. So
they would end up going to the county, or unless they got real sick, that’s the only
way they would go to a doctor. But it was none of this stuff to do any prevention,
you know, health prevention. I think that we began that whole process of trying
to get people to start understanding that, you know, health is an issue that we
should be afforded in terms of the people. You know, because without health,
you know, you really have nothing when you’re sick. So that was one of the
issues that -- one of the programs that came out of that.
JJ:
And how much did the people have to pay to --
CF:
As far as I remember, it was nothing, [01:14:00] and it was real interesting
because what they did is they turned the -- they turned some of the little rooms,
they turned into like examination rooms. Like up in the office, there was one
examination room. There was another examination room downstairs. And so
basically, that’s how people came in. They came in whenever, you know, the
clinic was open. People would come in, and they’d bring their kids. Their kids
were checked, and if they needed any additional treatment, then they would be
referred to the county or to another clinic or to a doctor. But it was bringing that
basic health facilities to people in the community, which was unheard of because
in the past, you probably would have to go to the clinic or go to a doctor, or you
didn’t know how you were going. So that was one of the programs. The other
program was this breakfast program. It was short lived. I used to run that
program. And that program was actually adopted after the Panthers breakfast
48
�program. And we actually would get up in the morning. I had my sisters
[01:15:00] be part of that program. We actually ended up cooking pancakes, and
we actually, you know, had maybe about 14, 15, 16 kids that would come in
before school. And we would feed them, and then we would actually not -- we
would not give them any heavy dosage political classes. We would just do things
like, for example, I would bring a map, and I would ask them, “Where in Puerto
Rico is your family from?” “Oh, from Arecibo.” “Go up to the map and show us
where Arecibo is.” You know, just real basic stuff in terms of creating conscious
in terms of who they were as Puerto Ricans, right? And so that was that. The
other thing that we also -JJ:
I remember we would have crossing guards and all that.
CF:
The what?
JJ:
Crossing guards for the kids.
CF:
Well there was a crossing guard because the kids would stop in right before
school. So they would be there like around 7:30.
JJ:
So the Young Lords would be the crossing guards.
CF:
We would be crossing -- make sure the kids got to the school because [01:16:00]
they would have to go to either Arnold, or they would go to the other grammar
schools in the area. So they would come in and get their breakfast. Then the
other program was there was this relationship with the [people at the law office?]
which actually opened at the same time. And so you would actually -- when
everyone had a legal case, you would also refer them to the law clinic. So you
49
�know, there were some services that were being provided to folks in that
community.
JJ:
And who was funding the Young Lords at that time?
CF:
Funding the Young Lords? Shit. You know, to be honest, that’s a good question.
I think they were just getting funding from grassroots people. You know, we’re
not getting -- there was no government funding. It was no, you know, no
philanthropists were giving us, no foundations were giving us money. It was
money that was coming in. I remember one time that we actually got donations
because I mean, I still -- I think I still probably have letters [just towards?] the end
of the Young Lords, [01:17:00] we actually were asking for donations of food.
And I remember one time there was a company that brought in thousands, you
know, a bunch of boxes of cereals, man. I don’t know if you remember that. And
we had to get rid of that cereal because the rats were breaking into the boxes.
And we had to start giving the cereals away. But we were getting like donations
from stores, and dollars. And one time I even, you know, was the treasurer of the
organization, holding onto all the money. Because what happened was that after
a while, you know, our organization --
JJ:
You’re the one that took the money, there?
CF:
I was the one that took the money, but I had to fight with a lot of you guys
because everybody wanted money. So my thing was that after a while, things
began to get a little shady because of all the repression that was coming down,
and all the people getting arrested.
JJ:
What kind of repression? What do you mean?
50
�CF:
Police aggression, you know. We were actually always being watched. It was
always police cars parked. They were always taking notes. They were always
watching. There was a lot of, [01:18:00] you know, confrontations with the police,
and so what happened, every time that someone got arrested, we would have to
go out there and try to get money to bail folks out of prison. That was the one
way of how they neutralized the whole organization by actually continuing to
have confrontation, arresting people, and, you know, having people arrested.
And what happened to the point where a lot of people went underground, and I
think you were one of those folks, is that you never, you know, kept your court
dates. And so actually what they did is they issued fugitive arrest warrants for
you guys for not showing up. And so you guys had to go underground, and that’s
how the whole organization got neutralized and it got put out through that
process. And you know, so you actually analyze all that, that how do you actually
eliminate an organization is that you keep arresting the leadership and you
neutralize the leadership, and the whole organization -- cut the head, and the rest
of the organization just dies. [01:19:00] And so that’s what happened back in the
days. You know, there was confrontations with the police all the time, you know.
Even though, I mean, I heard stories about people throwing like, you know, we
used to fight with water balloons. I mean, people on top of the church throwing
water balloons at the cops. Somebody told me a story that they remember. I
think when the church was taken over, they were throwing water balloons at the
cops from the church.
JJ:
I don’t remember that.
51
�CF:
Somebody told me that. They had some videos on that. But I never -- they
never materialized. But those were some of the issues that -- the other
interesting thing about this is that you had, you know, there was this whole
movement of like there was the political representation, the aldermen and all the
other folks that were in the city, who were actually demonizing us. You know,
they actually -- I mean, because that’s another tactic of, you know, you’re either
[01:20:00] with us, or you’re against us. And so if you’re against us, then we
have to, like, demonize you. We have to make you look like you’re terrible
people, that you’re going to cause harm to us, you’re going to cause harm to our
neighborhood, our society. So there, you know, was all this fearmongering, or
mongers going out and creating fear within the neighborhood. You know, like the
aldermen, you know, was actually trying to pass ordinance trying to make sure
that more repression or more laws or rules be placed against us because of, you
know, like loitering rules and loitering laws. Because they kept saying that we
were criminals. But in reality, how can you be a criminal? We are kids that grew
up in their neighborhood. The people that live in their neighborhood are our
families. So how is that family going to be afraid of us? Which was a key thing.
That’s what backfired on them. So they could have actually continued this
campaign of trying to discredit us, but, you know, we were part of that
neighborhood. You know, people would know who we were. [01:21:00] It wasn’t
like we just, you know, came from another planet and planted ourselves in that
community to try to make changes. We were a part of growing up, and growing
up in a community, and actually reacting to some of the consequences that were
52
�going on. And that was that whole gentrification and displacement process that
began to happen. And that’s how, you know, you begin to get politicized with
how the organization begins. And I think you started this thing when we came
out of prison, and got this education, and then you tried to get everybody else on
board. So that was the lesson to be learned. It was a short-lived lesson, but
again, it was a life lesson. You know, and my life lesson is I tell people, “There’s
nothing you can’t do if you were to put your mind to it,” you know? And you
know, when I go out and I talk to young people, I mean, you know, you try to give
kids an inspiration about what we did back in the days. Because nowadays, you
know, [01:22:00] you’ve got all these organizations, and you’ve got all these
groups, and there’s also things that you can fall back on, you know, so you’re not
out there by yourself. I mean, we were out there. It was just us. And it wasn’t,
you know, we were really faced with danger. I mean, some of our people were
killed. It wasn’t a game. You know, the cops were serious. They was, you know,
like the mayor, the order was shoot to kill. They were shooting to kill. You know,
and they were not, you know, the majority of the police department were mostly
whites. And they used to practice, you know, the tactics that were like very
oppressive. They would pick up, you know, some of our guys and would actually
drop them off in neighborhoods where the white gangs were. You know, they
were doing this stuff all the time. And you know, I get it. That was making a
comment with people, you know, needing to learn and to know about their
history. A lot of these police officers and firemen that we had in the city
department -- as a matter of fact, the new fire chief that just got appointed
53
�[01:23:00] fire chief in Chicago, he’s this Puerto Rican guy that’s been on the
force for a long time. But, you know, back in the days, there were no Puerto
Ricans. You know, hardly any Blacks in the fire department and the police
department. They even had an age requirement, a height requirement, that to be
a policeman you had to be a certain height. That was discriminatory because
height has nothing to do with whether or not you can do the job or not. And it
was just another obstacle from keeping us, in terms of being involved in the
process, because if you look at a lot of Puerto Ricans and Latinos, we’re not tall.
We’re short people. And so that whole requirement was fought, and it was fought
hard. And people went to prison. People, you know, shed their blood. People
shed their lives so we could open some doors to let folks like the guys that are on
the police department and the fire department today. So a lot of these guys think
that because they’re named Rodriguez and they’re good looking and they got a
job on their own [01:24:00] they don’t understand that people fought for them to
have their jobs, and they need to take that into account and appreciate what was
being done back as a result of our movement, of our struggles, to open the doors
for them. So.
JJ:
Okay. Later on, you were also involved with the whole question of AfroCaribbean, Puerto Rican --
CF:
Yeah. I did. I mean, I think that the, you know, I wanted to --
JJ:
And what are the other things --
CF:
Yeah, well, you know, I went to school to -- I went to UIC --
JJ:
(inaudible)
54
�CF:
I went to UIC and I got a master’s, and I was out there, you know, trying to figure
out what was the best for me. I even went to law school for like a year and a half
at DePaul. That didn’t work out. I went and got a master’s in criminal justice.
That didn’t work out. But I had already been to school, man. [01:25:00] I had
already been exposed to that whole political process, that whole thing of radical
politics and being involved, and being a radical myself. And so that drove me to
who I am today in terms of dedicating my life to making sure that you fight
discrimination, you fight exclusion, you fight all the oppression and all the things
that keep people back. So, you know, throughout my whole career, I mean, I
actually -- when I went to UIC, I actually got arrested with a bunch of folks, like 40
of us got arrested because we took over the president’s office. This is like right
after the Young Lords. I had already started going to college, and I remember
going -- me and [Scott Lopez?], [Rory Guerra?], [Rudy Lozano?], [Danny
Solizo?], the aldermen, [01:26:00] got [Roberto Torres?], there was a bunch of
us, like 40 of us. We went to meet with the president of the U of I, and we
decided we ain’t going nowhere until we get a commitment from you that you’re
going to, you know, recruit more Latinos in the school. Because we were there,
but we wanted to make sure that when we left that there would be more people
behind us. Because that was the whole thought process, you know? We tear
the doors down, and we keep the doors open. And so the whole concept behind
that whole boycott, that was I think in 1973 that we got arrested, was to make
sure that the school would actually have a program that would recruit other
Latinos. As a result of that, there’s a program called LARES, which is called the
55
�Latin American Recruitment Education Program at U of I. And it’s been there. It
came out as a result of that struggle. So, you know, our actions have resulted in
some positive things. So it wasn’t all done in vain. So everywhere I went, you
know, I actually got involved. [01:27:00] You know, when I was in law school, we
had a thing called the Latino Law Student Association, doing the same thing
again. You know, we’re here, but if we make it fine, but we’ve got to keep that
door open. And the doors have been maintained open. At least they tried to
close it, but we actually had a little crack that, you know, it’s not closed all the
way. And so I think a lot of, you know, a lot of people, a lot of people that went to
law school, a lot of people that got degrees should understand that at one time,
there was a lot of racism and discrimination that wouldn’t allow for them to go,
you know, to go to school and to take advantage of those educational
opportunities that are out there. So I kind of want to feel that I’m one of those
that have, you know, that have contributed to making sure that these institutions,
you know, have taken place. Like institutions like ASPIRA and [01:28:00] other
groups that actually flourished afterwards. So it has, you know, it has been a
thing, you know, where either I have actually got involved with the -- I went to
work for the Equal Opportunity Employment Commission after I went to -- got out
of college. And there, I fought, you know, we were fighting employment
discrimination under Title 7, and so I actually went into government (audio cuts
out) [us to get?], to fight racism under employment discrimination. And that was - and I did about ten years of that, but I was always involved with stuff that I was
learning. I would always come back to the community and say, “We could do
56
�this. We could do that.” Got involved, during the time I was working with the
commission, got involved in the Harold Washington campaign, which is an
interesting, interesting thing. I mean, I was like -- I mean that was kind of like the
highlight of this whole issue where we actually just turned this whole city upside
down and created history by electing the first Black mayor of the city. And that
was a hell of an experience of [01:29:00] being with that. And I remember when
Harold got elected, when he won the primary, it was like -- it was an interesting
thing because I remember working out of an office on Kinzie. Francisco DuPrey
was there, [Antonio Delgado?], it was a bunch of us, and I remember everybody
left the office the night of the primary, and you know, Jane Byrne had some
gangbangers working, you know, with this guy [Correa?], and, you know, had
some folks. And you know, I thought we were going to get shot one time, you
know, because it was me and about three or four of us left. Everybody had gone
to the primary party down at the McCormick, and these guys walked in. And you
know, for a moment they got really scared that, you know, that these guys were
going to retaliate. But -- because that, you know, they looked at it from the point
of view of, you know, it’s us against them. You know, they didn’t see it as a
political thing. It’s like, “Our guy lost, and now we’re going to shoot you.” You
know, that kind of a thing. [01:30:00] So -- but that in itself was an interesting -- I
mean, it was like the euphoria that was in the air, I’ve never seen it, you know,
people in the street hugging, and people that didn’t know each other. I mean, it
was really a sense of a great victory that actually came down. And as a result,
we began to take advantage of it, you know. I know you gave one of your
57
�speeches. I remember seeing you up there at the Puerto Rican parade on the
Harold Washington -JJ:
I introduced Harold --
CF:
Yeah, when you came and you gave an address, and you were talking about the
Sandinistas, and I was saying, “Shit.” You know, I tried to, you know, we’re like
talking, you know, this is a community festival, and he’s over there talking about
oppression and the Sandinistas, and it’s because that was, you know, the time
the Sandinistas were also there. So yeah, that was kind of --
JJ:
You were in the audience?
CF:
I was in the audience, because that was -- I was in the audience, and I was like --
JJ:
How was that? I mean, how was that --
CF:
Oh no, it was well received. You know, it was well received. The whole thing
with Harold being there.
JJ:
And everybody was wearing buttons, the Young Lords.
CF:
[01:31:00] Everybody was wearing the Young Lords button. I remember that
Willie Colon or Tito Puente was the guy --
JJ:
Willie Colon.
CF:
It was Willie Colon that was actually presented there, and so it was a hell of a
thing. But we actually began to get involved. We got involved on, you know, I
became a member of the Latino Commission. Through that, we began doing all
kinds of different hearings. We got this whole program on infant mortality in the
community. We began, you know, challenging resources into our community.
We began to open doors for people to get into the political process, where people
58
�today, you know, are now congresspeople. They’re aldermen. One guy, he used
to be the head of the commission just finished running for mayor in Chicago after
being a state senator. So there was a bunch of us that actually took advantage,
who had been involved in this whole struggle that actually became involved and
just took it to another level and began to start heading departments [01:32:00]
and getting involved in terms of creating things in the community, you know, like
the Humbolt Park Vocational Center became one of those things that you actually
brought to the community. So we began to actually open doors so people could
begin to start taking, participating in the process. But that all comes from that
Young Lords experience, that beginning way back then. So.
JJ:
Any final thoughts? Anything you want to --
CF:
I don’t know what else the hell I could say, man. Besides the fact that I’m still
fighting out here. You know, like, you know, because at this time I tell people,
“Man, I should be right now, I just turned 63. I should be somewhere in a rocking
chair, you know, drinking like coconut water out of a coconut.” But shit, the
struggles continues, man. There’s always -- there’s never -- you know, not only
you have to fight, you know, the other forces, but now, you know, my biggest
force or now my biggest enemy is my own people. Because now you’ve got a
bunch of folks [01:33:00] that are now they have the name of [Miguel Juan?] and
[Rosario?] and they’re like the worst because what they did is they learned -they get elected, and then they go on and they learn to become politicians. And
all they do is they only look out for their own selves or their own hidden agendas.
And so the [dumb folks?], in a way, have kind of created an obstacle, even
59
�though they do talk about that they’re there for the people. They’re there for
themselves, and they’re there for their bosses, you know, the political bosses.
And so they take orders, marching orders, from the folks. And so, you know,
unfortunately, you know, back in the days in this community, when we had
politicians by the name of Pucinski, [Holowishka?], and I think I made this
comment before, we had a community. All of a sudden, you know, we actually
elect people by the name of Juan, Maria, and José, and our community is gone.
You know, we’ve been displaced. Everything has been totally, been gentrified.
You know, even today, [01:34:00] in the year 2012, the community I live right
now, I’m probably the last of the Mohicans living on my block. This used to be all
Puerto Rican in [Lincoln?] Park. And the same thing with Humboldt Park. That’s
gone. You know, just about. Puerto Ricans have scattered all over the city and
gone back to the suburbs. They’ve gone back to other neighborhoods. So the
whole process of gentrification still goes on. I just don’t think that you have that
kind of a movement that we had back in the days -- at least a movement that
unifies everybody for the same cause. You’ve got folks out here that are running
organizations, that are actually projecting and focusing on their own hidden
agendas. You’ve got political figures out here who take orders from the
Democratic organization who are sometimes probably our own worst enemies.
And you’ve got folks that actually are cutting deals and doing things for
themselves, and not, you know -- so the community has grown [01:35:00] really,
really fast. But I don’t think that you have the same kind of issues back in the
day. I’m still getting with issues. I mean, my latest issue has been this issue of
60
�given the fact that one out of every four Latino is someone of African descent,
you know, my thing has always been -- and I’ve been fighting this for the last two
decades -- is, you know, we always talk about, “Well, no, in my country there’s no
discrimination. We all get along.” You know, it’s like -- but if you really look at it,
you know, Black folks, Afro-Latinos, people of African descent that are Latinos
had been ignored and had been treated like invisible people when we’ve been
here all along from day one. We built this damn country. We built the
infrastructure. And they got free labor not only here in this country but
everywhere. In Mexico, everywhere. They brought all these Black folks to come
in because of the fact that the Indians couldn’t cut it, so they had to bring in some
labor to, you know, dig up not only [01:36:00] the sugar and the stuff. They were
looking for that gold. So they actually brought in some heavy folks. So you know
all this time they’ve been treating us as we don’t exist and that we haven’t
contributed to anything. But we’ve done, and we made a lot of contributions, and
so my biggest fight right now is in trying to get people to acknowledge those
contributions and to begin to treat us with the respect that we deserve to be
treated like, as Black people. And so, you know, one of the things that really
bothers me is this whole image of what a Latino looks like. When you look at the
media, and I get sick and tired of looking at the damn TV because every time you
look at Spanish TV, even the American commercials, and they portray a Latino,
we all look the same. We all look like you, Cha-Cha. We need, you know, real
Black people. Like you look like a white boy. You look like a -- you look like a
white boy. You know, all these, like, white-looking people. There’s no one ever
61
�that looks like me on TV unless you look at a reality show. Then you begin
[01:37:00] to see.
JJ:
My mother told me I was going to be a lawyer. Okay.
CF:
Yeah, okay. Yeah. Well -- but that’s one of the biggest things right now. So
that’s actually taken a lot -- gotten a lot of steam, and I go around and I talk to
people, and I, you know, people, you know, all of a sudden, you know, you’ve got
people talking about the relationship between African Americans and Latinos.
Well hell, their relationship has always existed. Ain’t nothing new. You know, if
you really, really, really -- you know, even the whole issue of Marcus Garvey and
Arturo Alfonso Schomburg back in the mid -- the last century, you had all these
relationships that existed between Latinos and African Americans, and so we just
have to explore and look at our history, and basically that’s what we did. But I’m
done, bro.
JJ:
I appreciate it.
END OF VIDEO FILE
62
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ceae7017cfbea99f450ab72b953d1483.mp4
2ed86ff96f452dc475ba5cc13e822a39
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives.
The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
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2017-04-25
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
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eng
spa
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Identifier
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RHC-65
Coverage
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2012-2017
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Título
Spanish language Title entry
Carlos Flores vídeo entrevista y biografía
Sujetos
Spanish language Subject terms
Young Lords (Organización)
Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos
Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales
Justicia social
Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago
Chicago (Ill.)--Política y gobierno--1951-
Artes, Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago
Renovación urbana--Illinois--Chicago
Relaciones raciales
Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales
Source
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-65_Flores_Carlos
Title
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Carlos Flores video interview and transcript
Creator
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Flores, Carlos
Description
An account of the resource
Carlos Flores is a cultural activist who lived at La Salle and Superior in the La Clark barrio, growing up on Armitage Avenue. He takes pride in relating that his family was “the last of the Puerto Ricans to leave Lincoln Park” and recalls life in Lincoln Park which included his share of minor street battles as a teen member of the Continentals Social Club. Mr. Flores also fought for Puerto Ricans as a full fledged member of the Young Lords. Mr. Flores served on the Chicago Mayor’s Advisory Council on Latino Affairs, under Harold Washington. This council was first set up in 1983 by the Young Lords and four other Latino representative organizations city-wide soon after Harold Washington was elected the first African American mayor in Chicago history.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Chicago (Ill.)--Politics and government--1951-
Arts, Puerto Rican--Illinois--Chicago
Urban renewal--Illinois--Chicago
Race relations
Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions
Language
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eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-03-29
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/30cb63a01e6addba8972f2d1b7130dcf.pdf
8532ac07605ae66986da98dea49ab3ec
PDF Text
Text
Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: Carlos Munoz
Interviewer: Jose Jimenez
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 5/19/2013
Runtime: 01:05:02
Biography and Description
Oral history of Carlos Munoz, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on May 19, 2013 about the Young
Lords in Lincoln Park.
"The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the
history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later,
the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the
premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and
�political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban
renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos,
working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same
families and activists also risk losing their history.
�Transcript
JOSE JIMENEZ:
Okay, Carlos. If you can give me your name and where you were
born, and where you work.
CARLOS MUÑOZ JR.:
Okay. Right. My name is Carlos Muñoz, Jr. I was born in El
Paso, Texas in 1939. The particular day, it is August 25, 1939. I am the son of
poor Mexican working-class immigrants, undocumented at the time. And my
father was from Chihuahua, Mexico, my mother from Durango, Mexico. They
came during the Mexican Revolution of 1910 as children. And the revolutionaries
at that time would drop off their kids at the border there in El Paso so -- to keep
them safe from the violence of the revolution. My mother’s father, my
grandfather, was one of Pancho Villa’s generals [00:01:00] and he was
assassinated the year my mother was born, actually so -JJ:
(inaudible)?
CM:
His name is [Calixto Contreras?], General Calixto Contreras. And so that was my
maternal grandfather. And I was born in El Paso and when I was 12 years old,
we moved to East LA, East Los Angeles, California where I was raised. And I’ve
been in California ever since, since 1952 when I was 12 years old.
JJ:
Can you describe or what do you remember from that experience in East LA?
CMJ: Yeah. When I was in East LA, we lived in all the barrios there were -- there were
different gangs in the streets. Since my mother died when I was three [00:02:00]
and my father remarried, my stepmother and I didn’t get along so I wasn’t home
too much. And I became part of gang life. And I’m lucky to be alive today,
1
�actually. The kids that I grew up in East LA with either wound up in prison or
dead.
JJ:
What do you mean?
CMJ: Well, there was various gangs. The one that I was the most-time member of was
the Olive Street Gang in a barrio called Bunker Hill. That was right in the
boundary East LA/downtown LA area and that’s the one that I was really the
longest and the one that I walked away from. At the age of 15, I got tired of
fighting and decided that I was going to do something different with my life. And I
decided to play baseball instead of hanging out in the streets. So then I started
in high school. [00:03:00] I became an athlete and a pretty good student. And
then I graduated with honors from high school. I was the only quote, “vato loco,”
end quote, that graduated with honors. “Vato loco” at that time for us was a
reference to those of us that were products of the barrio, products of gang life in
the barrio, which is now known more like homeboys. That was the vato loco
designation at that time.
JJ:
Was the barrio always that Chicano, Mexicano or...?
CMJ: Yeah. Where -- in East LA at that time, I got there in the East LA area in general,
it was predominantly Mexican, I would say, 95 percent Mexican. And there was a
clear demarcation, East LA and downtown LA were all Mexican, 95 percent, in
terms of ethnic/racial groups. And then southern -- South Central LA [00:04:00]
at that time was all Black, Hollywood/West LA was all white. It was kind of like
you know, that kind of a demarcation. Nowadays, you go to LA and man, it’s a
mixture of Central American and Mexican. It’s no longer just Mexican. This is a
2
�result of the civil wars and revolutions that were fought in Central America in the
late ’70s and early ’80s. A lot of political refugees came over and they would
taste (laughs) East LA, too, or South Central LA. But now, it’s been a whole
different ball game, a whole different landscape in terms of racial and ethnicity
and backgrounds of people in LA.
JJ:
But you said the first place you came to was in Texas, in Tejas, in Texas.
CMJ: The first place, when we got to East LA?
JJ:
Before East LA.
CMJ: Oh, before East LA. In El Paso where I was born, in El Paso, yeah. I was born
in El Segundo Barrio in El Paso.
JJ:
What was that like?
CMJ: And at that time in El Paso, [00:05:00] talking about segregation, it was all
segregated. Mexicanos or Mexican Americans, we all lived on the side of the city
that was close to the bridge to Juárez, Mexico and that was El Segundo Barrio.
And then the downtown LA was kind of like the boundary. When you passed
downtown LA, it was all white.
JJ:
In El Paso, Texas.
CMJ: In El Paso, Texas, it was all white. And below the downtown center, it was
Segundo Barrio, and that’s the way El Paso was when I -- between the ages of 1
and 12 when I was born, so it was... And when I went to East LA, it was kind of
similar but not quite as segregated.
JJ:
So how many brothers and sisters? Were they born here or...?
CMJ: I’m the only one. I was a real weirdo growing up because all my friends had
3
�brothers and sisters. As you know, Mexicanos, Boricuas, and all of us have a lot
of big, extended families. [00:06:00] And my mother died when I was three so
my stepmother couldn’t have kids so I don’t even have brothers or sisters that
are half. So I was -- I grew up by myself, yeah. So I was the only one that had
that background that I knew about. (laughs)
JJ:
Okay, so then, okay. So now, you’re in East LA and you’re starting -- you’re in
school? You’re...
CMJ: Yeah. I went to Belmont High School in downtown LA that it was the first time in
my life that I experienced an environment that was mixed. You know, kids from
different walks of life and races. We were the only school in the whole city at that
time that had foreign students. So consequently, in the student body was kids
from all over the world there. Mexicans, Asians, Europeans even, Africans,
Hawaiians, Polynesians, and [00:07:00] so it was -- it was a good experience.
Because I realized, “Wow, you know what? There’s other people in the world
that I can relate to.” So my best friend, actually, was a Japanese American that
was a part of the only gang in LA that was a Japanese American gang. [Baby
Black Ones?] they called themselves. So he and I kind of grew up together in
high school and I learned Japanese from his parents and he learned Spanish
from me. (laughs) Which came in handy when I went in the military when I
volunteered draft after high school. Mm-hmm. Oh, let me give a story about high
school that I just thought about. It’s important to capture the historic moment that
I was growing up. During the 1950s when I was in high school, segregation and
racism was pretty bolder. Even though the school that I went to was mixed,
4
�[00:08:00] if you were Mexican or Black, you automatically -- if you were a guy,
you automatically got put into the Industrial Arts major. Woodshop, you know?
That kind of thing. Not the academic major. And so I was asked when I was
making the transition from junior high or middle school to high school, I was
asked by my white counselor what does your father do? And I said my father
works with his hands. Cheap labor. Construction. And she told me, “Okay, well,
that’s a very honorable profession. You should follow in your father’s footsteps.”
So anyhow, I go home that day, “Pa, pa, guess what? I’m going to follow in your
footsteps,” and he got very angry. I was going to say another word but I guess I
better keep it clean with the language. He got very angry and he told me, “Mijo,
you go and tell that SOB that I don’t want you following in my footsteps. I want
you to work with a pencil.” My father only got about a fourth-grade education.
So to him in his mind, working with a pencil or not having to [00:09:00] work with
a pick and shovel was a major improvement. It was, to him, success. He wanted
me to finish high school and become a person that worked with a pencil. So I
went back and told this counselor, “Yeah, you know, my father doesn’t want me to
follow in his footsteps,” I said. “So he wants me to work with a pencil.” So she
says, “Hm, work with a pencil.” So she says, “Okay, we’re going to put you in a
business major and that way, you can become a used car salesman or
something like that.” “Okay, sounds cool.” So I go to my first class. It was a
typing class and all girls, right? All the girls had the typing class. And so I was
really happy because I’m the only guy and all these girls, right? And I learn how
to type. And I didn’t realize that at the time but it saved my life later on when I
5
�was in the military because it got me out of the combat zone and I got to work in
an office typing. And so I was able to get a high school diploma in [00:10:00] a
business major which did not give me the courses I needed for college. I never
took chemistry, algebra, science, those courses that are needed to go into
college, so have to go to a community college to make those courses up. So I
was trying to -- when I graduated, I went to community college and I picked -- I
couldn’t find an algebra class so I took a class that was called geometry. I didn’t
know what geometry was. But it sounded like algebra and so I became part of
that class. For the first time in my life, I was beginning to flunk a class because I
had always gotten good grades. Even though I was a street kid, I still like school
and I was doing good in school. And so but then it kind of hit me. “Maybe these
white people, maybe they’re right. Maybe we Mexicans don’t have what it takes.
Maybe we are intellectually inferior,” you know? So I began to question my ability
intellectually. So I dropped out of college and I volunteered draft. [00:11:00] This
is just before Vietnam broke out. So because I learned how to -JJ:
So you volunteered?
CMJ: Yeah, I went to a draft. Yeah, there was no war.
JJ:
Oh, it was a draft. Okay.
CMJ: Draft, volunteer draft. Yeah. And in those days, it was mandatory that you
served in the army. There was a draft, right? So you’d have to sign up for the
draft. But I decided, “You know, I don’t want to wait. I want to go and get it over
with,” so this place called volunteer draft means that you let the draft board know,
“Hey, I want to go now. I don’t want to wait until I’m called.” So I decided to go in
6
�and get it out of the way. I didn’t know what was going to be happening down the
road. So because I knew how to type, to make a long story short, I would up in
army intelligence in the G-2 section typing stuff like that. That was no big deal.
I’m in intelligence and I didn’t even know what it meant. But that was just -- it
was a typing job so I was pretty happy there. And they sent me to South
[00:12:00] Korea. And in South Korea, I began to get you might say a sense of
something was wrong. Because even though I was a poor kid from the barrio, I
was programmed to be very patriotic, I was programmed to believe the myth of
democracy, that we had a democratic society, that we represented the best in the
world.
JJ:
I was going to ask you that. So you were -- at that time when you joined, you
were very patriotic.
CMJ: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I just want to serve my country, right? But in spite of the
fact we were victimized by racism and all of the other stuff. But growing up, you
don’t think about those things. You just assume things are the way they are. So
I didn’t question anything like none of us really do at that age. So I went in the
volunteer draft to serve my country. So anyway, to make a long story short, I
wind up -- I was trying to be a killer like all soldiers, combat-ready and everything
else. But because I knew how to type, they put me in army intelligence. So I
wound up going to South Korea and become part of the Korean Military Advisory
Group. [00:13:00] So when I was there, it was a coup d’etat in 1961. And I
started thinking, “Wait a minute. If I’m an “American soldier” defending
democracy, why am I being ordered not to try to stop this coup d’etat because it’s
7
�a democratic government?” So here we were as an army, as another -- as a
democracy supposedly putting into power a military dictatorship. It didn’t make
sense to me. Because something is rotten somewhere and I didn’t -JJ:
This is South Korea?
CMJ: It’s South Korea. So that began -- I began to question what I was doing there
and begin to think something was wrong. Oh, I was 20 years old. What did I
know, really? I wasn’t that political yet. But it was my first time in my life that I
began to think politically in a way. This to me is a contradiction. I’m here to
protect democracy in this potential country, an ally [00:14:00] of ours, and at the
same time, I’m allowing a military dictatorship to take power and not do anything
about it. So it didn’t make sense to me. So then, at the time Vietnam started
happening, it was a secret war in 1962. And so I -- they wanted me to volunteer
to go to Vietnam to become one of the first military advisors, set up a Vietnam
Military Advisory Group since I was in the Korean Military Advisory Group. And
by that time, I started questioning because I was getting -- my job in the
intelligence office was to gather all the reports from the CIA coming in,
documenting them and then passing them to the general’s office. But I started
reading this stuff, you know? So something -- man, we’re going into this country.
And again, another democracy supposedly. And where do we go in -- we’re
going to go in there and become part of a war there. It doesn’t make sense
[00:15:00] to me, you know? So I refused to go to Vietnam. Instead, I was quote
-- I wasn’t court martialed because they couldn’t court martial me because there
was no public war going on so they could not accuse me of being a disloyal
8
�soldier. Instead, I got two weeks of prison and let’s say kind of a insubordination
kind of a charge. Article 15 they called it which doesn’t go on your record when
you get discharged. So I got discharged with an honorable discharge which later
on qualified me for the GI Bill to go to college. So I got out of the army and the
first thing I did when I got out, I joined the Vietnam Veterans Against the War
organization and I became an activist against the war as a veterano, as a
veteran. And so that was my real transition to being [00:16:00] an activist and
beginning to get very political. And then my next -- after that -JJ:
Who was leading it at that time? What was --
CMJ: John Kerry.
JJ:
Oh, John Kerry?
CMJ: Senator John Kerry.
JJ:
Vietnam Veterans Against the War?
CMJ: Yeah, yeah. Matter of fact, John Kerry was one of those Vietnam veterans who
got a medal of honor, actually, in Vietnam when the combat started really heavy. He
was wounded and then he, when he served his duty, he became part of the anti-war
movement because like me, he didn’t agree with what we were doing over there. A lot
of us; Not just him and me, but you know, a whole bunch of veterans beginning to
question what we were doing there. And so all these veterans together begun to get
organized so we got to speak out against the war. And although I didn’t serve in
Vietnam because I refused to go, I still got classified as the Vietnam War-era veteran
meaning that I was in a combat [00:17:00] zone so at that time, we all qualified for the
GI Bill so I got to know these guys. And so when John Kerry and others organized the
9
�movement against the war, I joined up. So John Kerry was one of the Vietnam vets that
took all their medals off and threw them over there in a protest action in the steps of the
White House. In the 19- -- it must’ve been in 19- what, 1966, ’67, around there. And so
he was a real hero to me because this guy, this is damn courageous what he’s doing.
Of course, later on he became a politician and nowadays, he’s part of the ruling class
apparatus, right? But for that moment, he was a good radical, a good anti-war activist.
So that got me going. And I haven’t stopped since. I’ve been an activist. I’ve been out
there speaking out against the war, speaking out against racism, [00:18:00] sexism, you
name it. I’ve been doing it and I’m still doing it. Right now, I’m involved with -- I’m a
member of Veterans for Peace and we represent the anti-war movement in this country.
And I’m also a part of the immigrant rights movement. I’m a member of the National
Network for Immigrant and Refugee Rights in Oakland. So I’ve been an activist ever
since. But to go back after I got out of the military is that when I got back, then I went
back to school with the GI Bill. And at that time, there were very few of us Mexicans in
the area going to school. So we decided -- I started looking around to see if I bumped
into any other students that were Mexicans or Latinos and I couldn’t find any. But
eventually, little by little, people started coming out of the closet. People got, “Okay, I’m
not -- [00:19:00] I’m not Spanish American, I’m not Spanish, I’m Mexican. Órale.” You
know, “Friday, let’s get together. Let’s get organized.”
JJ:
This is recently.
CMJ: This is in 1960 -- late ’60s.
JJ:
Late ’60s, okay.
CMJ: So in ’67, we founded the United Mexican American Student organization and I
10
�became a president of that organization. And so then we started thinking about,
“Well, you know what?” By that time, by the way, the farm worker movement had
started so Dr. King, of course, and the Civil Rights Movement was going strong.
So we were being inspired by Dr. King and by Cesar Chavez. And on top of that,
there was all kinds of revolutions happening in the world. So we were all
connected to all that and we were all being inspired by all the action going on out
there against US imperialism and colo- -- anti-colonialist movements as well as
here at home civil rights and farm worker rights and so forth. [00:20:00] So we
decided to do something that had not been done yet. We looked at each other
and said, “You know? We’re supporting all these revolutions, we’re supporting
the civil rights movement, we’re supporting the farm working movement. What
about our own backyard, the urban barrios? What are we doing there? We’re
not doing anything. We got to do something. So we got to start our own
movement.” So we started to organize and say, “Well, what can we do to
organize a movement? We can start with the schools.” Because all of us, we
looked at each other, we all had a hassle to try to get what we got. We were not
put into academic tracks, we were -- we had to deal with that vulgar tracking
system, a racist system that kept us out of the universities. So we decided to
organize a movement against racism in public schools in East LA. So we did that
in 1968.
JJ:
Was that the walkouts?
CMJ: Yeah. So then in 1968, we started doing that and we had an organizing
committee that I was a part of. [00:21:00] To make a long story short, we pulled it
11
�off. We had -- it became -- there’s a document in my book. We had the -JJ:
Can we see the book for a second.
CMJ: Yeah. This is the book here. It’s called Youth, Identity, Power: The Chicano
Movement and I document all this history I’m talking about right now that -- okay?
And I became part of this organizing effort and we -- our concern was to make
demands to the school board that we wanted -- we didn’t want racist teachers
anymore. That we wanted to get our own teachers in there. That we wanted the
classes that need to be taught about Mexican culture and Mexican history and
about the role that we played as a people about developing the United States of
America society, right? So all of that took place. It was a segregated schooling
situation [00:22:00] so it was also anti-racist and anti-segregation. So we pulled
it off. Thousands of kids walked out of the schools in East LA.
JJ:
But I mean how did you go about (inaudible)? How did you organize the -- how
did you lead that?
CMJ: Yeah. Well, what we did -- yeah, how we organized it was okay, we went out into
the community and talked to parents. Talked to the people in the labor
movement out there, in unions. Talked to them about what we thought was
important for them to support us in trying to do this. To put the demand -- oh, we
were asking for nothing revolutionary, really. But really, what we wanted to do is
to have -- is to make a change in the educational system so that Chicano kids
and Mexican kids could have access to a college, to be prepared for a college.
You know, very reformist kind of thing.
JJ:
Did you have a petition or I mean how did you...?
12
�CMJ: We had petitions signed and all that. [00:23:00] And yeah, we did that. And but
more importantly, we had parents join in our organizing efforts and say -- so they
talked to other parents. The high school kids talked to other high school kids. So
we had a different -- a whole network going on throughout East LA and other
parts of LA city, as well. And so then, we -- during the month of March, we pulled
it off. We started saying we were going to have a walkout, we were going to call
it the blowouts to get everybody out of the school, to march to the school board,
make these demands which we did. So we had all of these kids coming out. We
didn’t expect it to be that great. We thought if we could get a handful of kids out,
maybe some pickets and all that, we won’t be -- but man, oh, just about all the
kids walked out. And in that whole week’s time, it took -- we stopped -- we
brought the school system to a stop. Kids were walking out every day and over
10,000 kids walking out every day. [00:24:00] It was a very historic moment that
we didn’t realize it at the time, mind you. Nobody had written a book like this
yet? (laughs) We didn’t know that what we were doing was historical. It was just
something that we had to do to start the struggle, to make sure that we were
going to be org-, organized throughout the Southwest. So we pulled it off and
sure enough, walkouts in East LA became our Selma, Alabama in a sense. They
started the Civil Rights Movement in the South, we started the Civil Rights
Movement in the Southwest. And that we called it the Chicano Movement.
Pretty excited that we could talk about Chicano power, Chicano meaning to us a
reconnection to our Indigenous past. Chicano, we defined it as a label, a name
that came from Mexica. Mexica culture in Mexico, the original, you know, the
13
�Aztec, known as the Aztecs. So out of the Mexica came [00:25:00] Mexicano,
Mexico. So that’s Mexico today, right? The name, the word Mexico. So we said,
“Okay, so we’re going to be Mexicano.” Well, we’re not Mexican so we’re
Chicano. You just cut out the M-e. We were born in US, okay, we can’t be
Mexicanos because we’re not Mexican, we’re Mexican Americans. So we’re
going to cut it short, Mexi, we’re going to cut that part out and it’s Chicano only,
right? So we went through a lot of discussions about this but we decided that
Chicano would become our new identity. That represented rejection of
assimilation and basically, it represented the decolonizing of our people.
Because we learned about the history, the true history, of how we got colonized.
How the Southwest used to be Mexico and there was this war that was fought
that the US made against Mexico to take over half of the Mexican [00:26:00]
nation and territory. So we sort of begun to redefine ourselves as colonized
people as opposed to “Americans,” right? So that’s what we did. Now, what
happened after that, after the walkouts, about a few weeks later, 13 of us
unbeknownst to us through secret grand juries and also through the freedom -the COINTELPRO. The FBI counterintelligence program that we did not know at
the time was involved with these secret proceedings of indictment. I learned that
later on after I became a scholar and I did the research. Based on the Freedom
of Information Act, I was able to get all these documents about how the FBI had
been spying on me and others -- those of us that were organizers. And so we
got arrested, we got put into [00:27:00] prison for -- on the charges of conspiracy
to disrupt the school system of LA city, of Los Angeles. And --
14
�JJ:
Right after the walkouts?
CMJ: Right after the walkouts. A few weeks after the walkouts.
JJ:
You said 13 people or...
CMJ: Thirteen of us, 13 activists. And I was -- there were two of us, we were leaders of
UMAS. I was one of them, the other was Moctesuma Esparza from UCLA and
myself from East -- from Cal State LA. And then Sal Castro, a high school
teacher, may he rest in peace. He just passed away a couple of weeks ago. A
dear friend of mine and comrade. And so 13 of us were indicted for conspiracy.
And so we were put into prison for a few -- about a week or so. And then we
went out on bail. In my case, the American Civil Liberties Union [00:28:00] bailed
me out and then everybody else had other lawyers. So we were all facing 66
years in prison for the crime of organizing the walkouts. So after that, that added
fuel to the fire.
JJ:
Sixty-six years.
CMJ: Sixty-six years. Looking at it, you -- listening to it now, you say, “That is
ridiculous. (laughs) That’s absurd.” But back then, it’s like a [mash?]. It’s a long
time.
JJ:
And these were people that had no previous records or...
CMJ: No previous record. We’re all activists, you know? But again, it was part of the
COINTELPRO, a program that they decided that they would go after us before
we -- in other words, at that moment in history, the FBI had its hands full with the
Black Power movement and Civil Rights Movement, white radicalism, anti-war
and all that. So they didn’t want to have a Brown front emerge, you know? And -
15
�JJ:
They had the Young Lords. (laughs)
CMJ: Yeah, they had the Young Lords in Chicago and [00:29:00] the Young Lords in
New York eventually. So they didn’t want to have what happened in ’69 a year
later, the unification of the Young Lords with the Chicano Movement that took
place in Denver, Colorado in ’69. They wanted to prevent that but we still did it
eventually. But our indictment representing was adding fuel to the fire because a
lot of people out there who thought we were being too radical by having these
walkouts. Then we got busted and they learned about -- that’s unjust because
we were not -- we were not doing anything revolutionary or communist-inspired
like the FBI said. So people got angry and became quite supportive so the
movement was built all over the Southwest. A year later in ’69, in Denver,
Colorado, there were walkouts. In 1970 in South Texas, Crystal City, Texas,
walkouts. So walkout became the means to generate the movement. [00:30:00]
I mean, the people asked because that was the big issue of education that
everybody could relate to, you know what I’m saying? That we just want to a
better school for -- better schools for our kids. You know, we deserve that. We
deserve that, all of our generations, my father’s generation, World War II, we
fought in wars, we fought in wars for this country, and we still came back and
we’re still not first-class citizens. “Ya basta,” we said. We got to do something
different. So that’s what happened. That’s what made me a revolutionary for life,
really.
JJ:
And then your father was born in Mexico. You were born here. And now, you’re
16
�a Chicano and he’s a Mexicano. But when you describe it, it’s really the same
people. Some people are kind of confused about that.
CMJ: Yeah, yeah. Right.
JJ:
So how -- when did that begin for you to feel that you were separate or
(inaudible)?
CMJ: Yeah. Yes and no, yes and no. What happened was, [00:31:00] okay, the
question is what happened after we proclaimed ourselves Chicano? How did our
parents who were Mexicans relate to that? Well, they couldn’t relate to that. We
would have arguments with our families. And I was told, “Well, you’re Mexican,
man. You’re not Chicano. What is Chicano, anyway?” So I tried to explain it to
them and basically what we said to them was and what I said to my parents was
being Chicano is being proud of our Mexican heritage. That’s what it means.
The only difference is that because we were not born in Mexico, we wanted to
make clear that even though we were not born in Mexico, that being Chicano
meant that we were proud of our Mexican ancestors. And specifically, our
Indigenous ancestors. We wanted to reconnect and that was a way we wanted
to reconnect. We no longer wanted to be Mexican American, hyphenated
Americans. At that time, it was hyphenated. I explain that in my book. We
wanted to be just [00:32:00] Chicano or Chicana in case of women. So -- but
there was a time when there was no understanding but eventually, they caught
on eventually. Okay, now we understand. But initially, it was no -- it was kind of
a problem. (laughs) But eventually, it was cleared up. But even it was hard to do
that. So anyway, after the out on bail -- we’re out on bail, see? And it took two
17
�years in the courts. There’s a book entitled Racial Injustice and that deals with
our case. It was written by a law professor at the law school. Racial Injustice.
JJ:
But I mean, who wrote the book?
CMJ: I’m trying to remember -- I can’t remember the guy’s name right now. It’s in here.
JJ:
(inaudible) Racial Injustice.
CMJ: Racial Injustice, yeah. [00:33:00] And so that documents our whole case. What
happened, what we went through in terms of the indictments for conspiracy and
all that.
JJ:
Can you give us a little (inaudible).
CMJ: What was that?
JJ:
A little bit of what took place with the kids.
CMJ: A little bit of what took place when we were indicted?
JJ:
Yeah, it’s in the book but if you can give us an idea of what --
CMJ: What happened was in other words, it begun -- the court proceedings started so
preliminary to trial. And our lawyers collectively made us little legal strategies to
prevent us from going to trial right away instead to try to get to the supreme
court. The state supreme court, not the national supreme court. So they put all
kinds of legal maneuvers. So eventually, it got to the state appellate court which
is the one below the supreme court and it took two years for that to happen. And
so when that happened, then basically, we were found [00:34:00] innocent by
virtue of the First Amendment to the US Constitution freedom of speech. So like
I always tell people, I guess the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover, didn’t realize that
Mexicans were also covered by the First Amendment. So that’s what happened.
18
�But in those two years that we’re talking about our legal case going on forward,
there was also a lot of other stuff going on. We organized -- well, actually, the
party -JJ:
Can you explain how that came about?
CMJ: Okay, so then in the 1969 Denver conference -JJ:
You said we. Who were the players?
CMJ: The players are the Crusade for Justice led by Corky Gonzales, United Mexican
American Students that I was a part of, MAYO, Mexican American Youth
Organization from Texas, were the main players here. Brown Berets from -became the main players. Brown Berets became main players during the
walkouts because they were part of the organizing [00:35:00] effort. It was
basically the organization that we decided in the walkouts that would be our -- the
security. There would be -- in the case the cops attacked us, the -- we needed
the Brown Berets to be there to defend the kids from getting hurt by the cops.
And they said, oh. So the Brown Berets became in the image of the public one
of the most militant groups at that time. So that ’69 conference, they were also a
part of that. They were key players, as well.
JJ:
Who were the leaders at the time of the Brown Berets?
CMJ: David Sanchez at the time was the Prime Minister of Brown at that time. Now, by
that time, I was already teaching. I started teaching at night. After I got out of
prison on bail, I started teaching (laughs). I was a first-year graduate student and
we didn’t have -- at that time, we didn’t have any Mexican Americans, not that
many Mexican American scholars. There were only five in the social sciences,
19
�for example. And they [00:36:00] were older guys and they didn’t know anything
about Chicanos. They didn’t want to be part of our Chicano studies plans. So
we had to, out of our own ranks of students, we had to come up with a faculty so
I was one of those guys. Since I had been a leader at UMAS, I was asked to be
the guy to build the Department of Chicano Studies, the first one in the nation.
So this is happening in two years.
JJ:
You were asked to build the first one in the nation, the Department of Chicano
Studies?
CMJ: Yeah, right.
JJ:
So that was the first version (inaudible).
CMJ: Yeah, yeah.
JJ:
This was in --
CMJ: At Cal State Los Angeles in 1968.
JJ:
But you formed it, you made it.
CMJ: Yeah.
JJ:
And then others followed after that or...?
CMJ: Yeah, after that, there were others that came up. They followed. By 1969, there
were three things -JJ:
Who asked you? Who asked you?
CMJ: UMAS.
JJ:
UMAS.
CMJ: See, in other words, as students UMAS, we made demands to the administration
that we wanted to have a Chicano Studies Department, okay? And Black
20
�students did the same thing. [00:37:00] So it was a Black/Brown kind of unity
thing going on and so we gave them these demands. And so the administration,
“Okay, okay, we’ll do it, we’ll do it.” Because we had -- it was right after the
walkouts. There was a lot of mass movement going on out there so they didn’t
want to say no (laughs) for obvious reasons. So we got the department but then
with no faculty. So in order to staff the department, you need faculty. So I was
picked, two of us were picked, to be the first “teachers” or faculty in the
department part-time. We were full-time grad students and part-time faculty
(laughs) because we didn’t have our own faculty. So the first thing I did as
“department chair” was to recruit -- try to find throughout the country Mexican
American scholars that had PhDs. So it was kind of hard to find. But anyway, so
to go on, this is all happening in a two-year period, from ’68 to ’70, right?
(laughs) All this stuff going on. Sixty-nine, the following year, the Denver
[00:38:00] conference and then at the Denver conference, Plan de Aztlán was
produced.
JJ:
What was that?
CMJ: Plan de Aztlán was a manifesto.
JJ:
And who produced that?
CMJ: Well, it came out of that conference. It came out of the Crusade for Justice
Conference. And so that manifesto called for x number of things that we in the
Chicano Movement are committing ourselves to finding this revolutionary
struggle to create not only better schools but our own schools, our own political
institutions, our own economic institutions, et cetera. So the political institution
21
�thing, we thought about -- well, at that time, we didn’t think about a party, per se.
But after the Plan de Aztlán was put out, then we started talking about, “Well, you
know what? We can’t do all of these things we’re demanding or calling for. Let’s
take one at a time. Let’s take the more important one.” We need -- we were at
that time in history, we were not representing a political process. [00:39:00] We
were all underrepresented. We didn’t have our own elected officials and that
kind of thing so we decided to create our own political party. So we called it La
Raza Unida party.
JJ:
Before we go onto La Raza Unida party, can you describe -- because this is
where the Young Lords came to Denver for the first time. So can you describe
how that conference was organized and what took place during those days?
CMJ: Yeah. The conference was organized basically by the Crusade for Justice, okay?
And the Crusade for Justice under the leadership of Corky Gonzales were the
folks that put it in play. They’re the ones that kind of -- the logistics and stuff like
that. And then UMAS, the Brown -JJ:
And why did they (inaudible)?
CMJ: Because they had the facilities. It was the only -- the Crusade for Justice was the
first civil rights organization to be created in the US. Okay?
JJ:
Of Chicanos.
CMJ: Of Chicanos. That was in 19- -- [00:40:00] I think in 1965, Corky Gonzales
founded it. So they had funds and they had their own building, okay? So they
the ones that says, “Okay, look. We got this building, we got these funds, let’s
have it here in Denver. We’d be happy to host it.” You know what I mean? So
22
�that’s how it came about. And so then, the word started putting out all over the
place and the Young Lords were invited. We wanted to have a Latino unity thing,
as well, to start moving forward to come up with this plan of action that will result
-- not only with the building of the Chicano Movement but also with establishing
an alliance with other Latino organizations like the Young Lords. So the Young
Lords attended and were represented. And so from that moment on, we were
connected in terms of political actions that were there. So whatever the Young
Lords did in Chicago and New York, eventually, we were in solidarity with.
[00:41:00] We were publicly -- were publicly supported and vice-a versa.
Whatever we did over here in the Southwest, the Young Lords would also
support it. And eventually, the Black Panthers and other militant people of color
organizations. That was the thing that we wanted to build. But in the meantime,
the main thing is to build in our own backyard and get our own folks involved in
organizing. So the party was the way that we thought at that time we should do
it. So La Raza Unida party was in a way a culmination of the Chicano
Movement. So we went from con- -- we went from the walkouts to other
walkouts to the conferences at Plan de Aztlán, and also to another conference in
Santa Barbara after the Plan de Aztlán that I was also a part of called Plan de
Santa Bárbara where we put together a manifesto demanding access to higher
education for Chicano kids. [00:42:00] And to open up the doors to these
institutions that historically had been closed to us. So this is where I decided that
my future work was going to be to build Chicano studies in the university which
I’ve devoted my life to doing so far. And so when we were “released” from being
23
�indicted and all that, then that’s what happened. So okay, so here I am. I got my
PhD, I got my -- I was out on bail and got my (laughs) PhD when I was out on
bail. And so then I became one of the handful of PhDs in the country so I -JJ:
One of the what?
CMJ: One of -- a handful of PhDs that we had. One of the first ones to get a PhD and
therefore, I was able to do the work that I’ve been doing.
JJ:
Now, the -- so it started in Los Angeles, the Chicano Studies Department.
CMJ: Right.
JJ:
Now, did you move to other states or cities?
CMJ: Yeah. So there were -JJ:
Were there funds [00:43:00] connected to do that or...?
CMJ: Yeah, well, basically for the most part, it was California, Chicano studies.
California was the first place where Chicano studies grew pretty fast. And then in
Colorado, it started in Colorado, and then New Mexico and then Texas. But the
Plan de Aztlán -JJ:
Because I think after then is when we have the Puerto Rican Studies.
CMJ: Yeah, right, exactly.
JJ:
So it was -- I think it’s right around the same time.
CMJ: Exactly. So that was -JJ:
It was kind of born.
CMJ: Right on. So there was also this interaction going on with the Puerto Rican
students, Puerto Rican student groups. So yeah, eventually, it became a
nationwide thing so it’s still going on. It’s not as radical as it was when we started
24
�it. Because as I write about in my book, there were -JJ:
Why has it changed? Why do you think it’s changed?
CMJ: The change happened because it -- becoming part of the university [00:44:00] -see, our plan, my vision -- I keep talking about myself. My vision was I wanted to
develop a paradigm that was in opposition to the dominant paradigm, you know
what I mean? The dominant theories, the dominant methodologies, the dominant
history. I wanted to play a role in developing within the university our own
paradigm that dealt -- that was com- -- that competed against the other one. We
wanted to decolonize the study of our people. In the context that we took it in our
own hands, we’re going to write the authentic, the true history. And not the racist
history that was being done at that time. Okay? So that’s what we did. And so
then, but it differed in terms of degrees of political involvement. It wasn’t -across [00:45:00] the Southwest wasn’t exactly the same. There were
differences here and there in terms of how they defined Chicano studies. But for
the most part, there was common ground at that time. But now, even now in the
21st century, things have changed completely. And those who have become
professors were not products of the Chicano Movement or the Boricua
Movement like we were. They were products of a system. We didn’t have
enough faculty to take over a whole university, (laughs) right? So consequently,
people that are now teaching are more interested in career as opposed to
community engagement, for example, community involvement.
JJ:
Career for themselves?
CMJ: Yeah.
25
�JJ:
Or for -- not for the student.
CMJ: No, for themselves, yeah. There is a careerist kind of process that goes on in
higher education. In other words, people are concerned about becoming experts
and all that and they’re not concerned about what we were, my [00:46:00]
generation, is concerned about is -JJ:
What were we concerned about as this --
CMJ: What we were concerned then was to become organic intellectuals. What I
mean by organic intellectuals is that organically connected to our communities.
In other words, where we saw our research being the kind of research needed by
our communities to empower our communities. You see what I mean? As
opposed to what’s happened now for the most part is doing the research to
publish books about our experience which is okay.
JJ:
So what is -- what -- that’s a good point. So the research is the research to
empower the community. Can you kind of define that a little bit?
CMJ: Yeah. Okay. What I mean by that is okay, research, for example, the issues that
our communities face. Take one that is happening -- continues to happen today.
Police harassment, you know? [00:47:00] How the system of injustice -- in other
words, redefine the system of justice as a system of injustice. And begin to
understand that what’s going on in terms of police community relations has not
been good for our communities. So what they’re really finding in terms of
community control of the police or how can we empower our communities to take
on the police in a way that sort of redefines the relationship between cop and
street youth. But it continues to be the case that we were not able to succeed in
26
�that way. How are you going to produce cops that are going to be sympathetic to
a community when you have an institution of the police that’s a military institution,
really? It’s a militarized institution. So that means you got to take on the whole
societal [00:48:00] thing so make a revolution out of that. So that’s what we
wanted to do but it’s easier said than done. Because those of us doing the kind
of research like that could not get our books published, for one, at that time. My
book, for example, was rejected by every single publisher. I had to go to England
to get it published. Verso Press is a left wing publisher in London. So this is
where this was published because it was too radical, it was too -JJ:
What was that book, the book again or...?
CMJ: My book? Youth, Identity, Power.
JJ:
Youth, Identity -- hold on a second. Okay, Youth, Identity, Power: The Chicano
Movement?
CMJ: Right.
JJ:
Okay.
CMJ: So I was told, for example, by publishers this is not something that a political
scientists writes because my PhD is in political science. So it’s not something
that a political scientist writes. [00:49:00] And so it’s not -JJ:
Your teaching is in political science.
CMJ: Yeah -- no, no, Chicano studies.
JJ:
Chicano studies.
CMJ: Yeah, right. I never taught in the political science Department. I didn’t want to. I
wanted to create something new. Something that would be corresponding to
27
�what the needs of the community were.
JJ:
And today, the professors are lapse of that understanding.
CMJ: Yeah, so today, we have people in the Political Science Department -JJ:
(inaudible) they were putting in every teacher they got. (laughter)
CMJ: Yeah, right.
JJ:
So the professors today are not engaged in the way that --
CMJ: Yeah, they have different -- they’re more theoretical now, for one. To be
“respected” as a scholar nowadays, people think they have to be theoretical.
And I don’t have anything against revolutionary theory but (laughter) or other
theories but I don’t have any sympathy for it. But the point that I’m getting at is
that it’s the nature of the institution to perpetuate the status quo. [00:50:00] Ando
so there is very little room allowed for a revolutionary scholar to publish her work
or his work as readily as others. There’s more opportunity now because not only
do we have left wing presses. At that time when I got my book, it was -- Verso
Press was it. And now they got different -- there’s other -- plus we have our own
publishing houses now, too, Chicano. Arte Publico is one and I think there’s
another one. I can’t remember off-hand. So now, we’re able to get more books
published because -- but in those days, it was not possible. So basically, the
important thing is that the name of the game has changed. The society has
gotten more conservative, reactionary, and consequently, it’s been difficult to
have a left perspective or a radical perspective pronounced or be visible as much
as it was back in the ’60s. [00:51:00] And this’ll be -- I guess that’s what’s going
on.
28
�JJ:
Now, you’re not teaching now. You said you’re retired, semi-retired?
CMJ: I’m semi-retired. I’m still teach -JJ:
Where do you teach at?
CMJ: I teach part-time.
JJ:
Where?
CMJ: At UC Berkeley.
JJ:
UC Berkely.
CMJ: Where I’ve taught at before (laughs) so yeah.
JJ:
For how long?
CMJ: Well, I started teaching at the University of California in 1970. So I’ve been
teaching since 1970 for the University of California and Berkeley since 1976. So
my first job was at UC Irvine from 1970 to 1976. Then I went to the University of
California Berkeley in 1976. So I’ve been there ever since til now.
JJ:
Immigrant rights you’re saying is part of the (inaudible) we got right now so that’s
all.
CMJ: Well, there has been, and ever since the ’60s, a growing population [00:52:00] of
workers without papers in our society, so-called “illegal aliens.” And as the
society has moved to the right, there’s been more and more anti-immigrant, racist
hysteria. Historically speaking, every time there’s an economic crisis in the
society, immigrants are scapegoated. They are -- the right wing, even the
liberals, they say, “These illegal aliens are taking away jobs from American
workers, are putting American workers out of work.” Which explains the crises,
right? (laughs) Which is not true. It’s never been true. But that’s the stereotypic
29
�racist explanation for it. So it’s gotten worse and worse and worse. Under the
Bush administration -- no, I take it back. Under the Clinton administration,
actually, liberal [00:53:00] Democrat, they militarized the border. Clinton
militarized the border. They started -- I mean, when I was a kid going -- crossing
the border from El Paso to Juarez, the Border Patrol didn’t wear guns. So now,
the Border Patrol has become like a military group, like an army. And it’s been -under President Clinton, that border was militarized. They built a wall, making it
difficult for people to cross, and so it’s been getting worse ever since. So now,
there’s been over time different kinds of congressional efforts to reform
immigration policy. And right now, we’re in the middle -- as a matter of fact, any
day now, we’re supposed to find out what’s happening with the latest effort to
reform immigration policy. [00:54:00] And I’ve done an analysis of that and I also
include that in my last chapter. About the fact that what’s going on now is
basically policy that is going to be in the interest of corporations and not in the
interest of the working class. They’re going to make it difficult for a
undocumented worker to get citizenship. That person is going to have to pay a
fine of 2,000 dollars or more, has to go back to Mexico and wait x number of
years before she or he can apply for citizenship or apply for a visa to come back
to work legally. So to me, that’s not good policy. Plus also, under the Bush
administration, they created the -- they reorganized the [00:55:00] immigration
system. Now it’s called the Homeland Security -- Department of Homeland
Security. And Homeland Security, the arm of enforcement, immigration
enforcement, has been called ICE, the ICE agency. And it’s called -- it’s what --
30
�what does it stand for? Immigration Customs Enforcement, ICE. And what I call
that is a terrorist arm of the US government because every day, ICE terrorizes
(coughs) families.
JJ:
Do you need water?
CMJ: Yeah, yeah, (inaudible). (coughs)
(break in audio)
CMJ: So ICE, again, the -- means Immigration Enforcement Agency. Customs -Immigration Customs, ICE, customs agency. [00:56:00] These guys, when they
go into somebody’s home, they got -- they’re all battle -- it’s sort of like a soldier.
They look like soldiers going in with guns, bullet vests, helmets, you know? And
here you got a family of undocumented -JJ:
Right. They’re watching TV.
CMJ: They’re watching TV, the mom’s cooking or whatever, the kids and these guys
just break in. “Okay, you’re under arrest.” What the hell? Because you have no
papers. So basically, what that means is that today is worse than ever in the
history of this country in terms of how it deals with immigrants because what
they’ve done is they have criminalized the undocumented immigrant as opposed
to just dealing with that person in terms of, “Okay, well, you got to get papers and
bla bla bla. We got to deport you. Sorry, but...” And now they go in there. And
then, they get imprisoned. [00:57:00] They don’t get deported right away like
they used to. Now they send them to private prisons that have become very,
very profit-making institutions. So this is why I have rephrased what President
Eisenhower said once. When he came -- when he start -- when he stepped
31
�down from the presidency, he warned the American people about the dangers of
the military industrial complex. Remember that? It’s always quoted. It’s very,
you know. What I say now is the danger comes from the corporate military
prison complex, okay? Because I see this -- they’re interconnected more than
ever.
JJ:
So they’re making a profit --
CMJ: They’re making a profit.
JJ:
(inaudible) was working as a pastor and they said that they were deporting some
people and they -- but then they waited to collect [00:58:00] the money first.
CMJ: No, no, see, they -JJ:
For a traffic fine, they put them in court.
CMJ: Yeah, right.
JJ:
Maybe I’m misunderstanding.
CMJ: No, no, no. The example of profit-making, what I mean by profit-making is
instead of going to a jail, a regular jail, okay? Where people go who get arrested
and then they call their lawyer and all that. Instead of doing that, what they’ve
set up private -- different private systems, I mean private prisons that are like
fenced in and everything else. It’s not a jail, per se, but it’s kind of like fenced in
and everything.
JJ:
Concentration.
CMJ: Concentration camp. That’s what it looks like when you see one of those. So
they send people there to wait for how long, sometimes days and weeks before
they get processed for deportation. [00:59:00] What that means is that this
32
�private prison is charging the government x number of millions of dollars to house
people that are being -- they call it detained, detained. Not imprisoned, but
they’re being detained for processing. You follow me? But it’s the same. But the
consequence is the same. It’s a terrifying experience for families, you know what
I mean? And -JJ:
The business is making money for the government.
CMJ: Exactly. That’s what I mean by profit-making so it’s very lucrative now. Okay, so
that’s what’s happening now. So the point is that the immigrant rights movement
is comprised of organization like the one I’m part of that are organizing to put
pressure on the government for a human rights comprehensive immigration
reform. Human rights meaning that we demand immediate legalization of
[01:00:00] undocumented workers. They should have a right to work, period.
And yeah, they -- some of them become citizens if there’s a path for citizenship.
But they shouldn’t be penalized by having to pay thousands of dollars and going
back to Mexico before they can become citizens. And also more importantly, that
the militarization of the border stop. That we want to see the border become like
it used to be. We don’t want to see any militarized things going on there like
weaponry. And now, President Obama has sent in drones -- now they’re sending
in drones, too, that can kill anybody they want to kill over there in the border.
They determine terrorists that can -- to guard against terrorism. So all of this is
going on and so the movement [01:01:00] is trying to put a stop to that, as well.
So basically, we want to say -- we’re saying as an immigrant mass movement,
we want to say, “Look, these people are human beings. They deserve the right
33
�to work if, in fact, there is work for them that Americans don’t want.” American
workers don’t want to work in the places where they’re being hired. This is why
they are in demand by those businesses that can’t hire American workers
because they need cheap labor. So basically, that’s what’s going on right now.
But it’s a long uphill fight because President Obama has not been a friend of
Latinos in the context of pushing for human rights and immigration reform.
Which is a shame because as you know, if it were not for the Latino vote, he
never would’ve been elected President. I mean, Obama had the Black vote, but
he needed the Latino vote [01:02:00] to get elected and reelected. And so he’s
gotten that on the promises that he’s made that he would be pushing a reform of
immigration policy that was going to be human rights-based, but he has not kept
his promise.
JJ:
So suddenly, human rights-based demands or issues are -- it has to do -- it has
to do with the border, demilitarizing it?
CMJ: Demilitarize the border, right. And de-terrorize -JJ:
De-terrorize the border, de-terrorize the border.
CMJ: Yeah, right. (laughs) No more terrorism. We don’t want any -- we don’t want ICE
to operate anymore. We want ICE to come in, yeah.
JJ:
So it has to do with ICE.
CMJ: Yeah, yeah, we don’t want -JJ:
And it has to do with these private corporations.
CMJ: Right. Get rid of those private prisons, right.
JJ:
What other issues related to that, ICE?
34
�CMJ: And then the right to stay here and work without having to be criminalized. No
more criminalization of the workers.
JJ:
There’s clearly a clash between what [01:03:00] the rest of the American
electorate wants.
CMJ: Well, yes and no. I think actually -JJ:
Or at least what they’re saying that they want.
CMJ: Yeah, it’s a clash with the right wing Tea Party people, what they want. And as
opposed to the American people because there’s been polls made recently
where it comes out that the majority of Americans now are sympathetic to
immigrants more now. So the majority, I think the majority now are saying yeah,
they’re -- they should have the right to work and not getting -- not get
criminalized. Yeah.
JJ:
Any final thoughts?
CMJ: Yeah. Well, final thoughts is as I get older and I’ve learned two things. The first
one is that life is struggle and struggle is life. [01:04:00] You never get to a point
in time in your life when you say, “Oh my God, we’ve got it made. We’ve
succeeded in everything that we’ve tried to undertake.” But I also learned that
victory is in the struggle. That as long as we’re fighting the good fight, fighting for
human rights, fighting for an authentic, multi-racial democracy, we’re winning.
Because the time’s coming where we’re going to be the majority in this country,
people of color. And I think it can happen. So it might not happen in my lifetime.
I won’t be around to see it. My children should be able to see it, my
grandchildren will see it. The kinds of seeds that those of us from the Young
35
�Lords party and Chicano Movement, (inaudible) party envision. Our vision will
come to realization eventually. It’s going to happen. I’m convinced of that. And
I’m going to keep on fighting until I die.
JJ:
[01:05:00] Thank you very much.
END OF VIDEO FILE
36
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/510939e3483735a79fe624a7c46e8b7b.mp4
8e912c03802f5a5b7424147fa72e1d9c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives.
The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide.
Creator
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Jiménez, José, 1948-
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
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2017-04-25
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
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eng
spa
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Identifier
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RHC-65
Coverage
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2012-2017
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Título
Spanish language Title entry
Carlos Munoz vídeo entrevista y biografía
Descripción
Spanish language Description entry
La historia oral de Carlos Munoz, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 5/9/2013 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park.
Sujetos
Spanish language Subject terms
Young Lords (Organización)
Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos
Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales
Justicia social
Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago
Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales
Relaciones raciales
Conflicto social
Identitad cultural
Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capítulo
Source
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a>
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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RHC-65_Munoz_Carlos
Title
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Carlos Munoz video interview and transcript
Creator
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Munoz, Carlos
Description
An account of the resource
Oral history of Carlos Munoz, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 5/9/2013 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jimenez, Jose, 1948-
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Mexican Americans--Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions
Race relations
Social conflict
Cultural identity
Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2013-05-09
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9802e2bfb59c15acf7acc990be467843.pdf
d7e1626c3623f5899af83f7f982fb313
PDF Text
Text
Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: Carlos Vasquez
Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 7/18/2012
Biography and Description
Carlos Vazquez is from Detroit, Michigan but he was born in Mexico and his family is from Ciudad Juárez
on the border with Texas. Mr. Vasquez’s family settled in Detroit in the 1940s and 1950s.The family
stays together and helps each other. In fact every year they have a family reunion and it is usually Mr.
Vasquez who plays a major role in organizing it. He is the youngest of his siblings and says he
“understands Spanish well but does not speak it.” Mr. Vasquez is a musician who has played in several
bands. He loves blues and plays rock and roll, country, Motown, Puerto Rican iibaro music, among
others. Mr. Vasquez learned jibaro when he lived within a Puerto Rican household for several years in
Grand Rapids, Michigan. He met José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez while Mr. Jiménez was a senior
counselor/supervisor for Project Rehab. Mr. Vasquez decided to join the Young Lords and has
volunteered to work on all of the Lincoln Park Camps. Mr. Vasquez has also recruited other volunteers
to handle the sound and stage at those events. The Lincoln Park Camps were first organized in 2000
during the Vieques, Puerto Rico protests that eventually closed down the military base. It was the
beginning of a reunion and an educational vehicle for the Young Lords, since the Young Lords had not
been active for many years. DePaul University was then also helping to document the origins of the
Young Lords. So the camp became a semi-retreat to educate and motivate people. The first camp was
held in Ford Lincoln Park in Lakeview, Michigan. There was the roasting of a pig, boat and hay rides. The
�Teatro Chicana paid for and made the journey, all the way from California and Washington. They
produced and were able to get others at the weekend camp to participate in a guerilla skit about the
displacement of the people from Lincoln Park, Chicago. Many people came from Puerto Rico, New York,
Aurora, Chicago, Milwaukee, Lansing, Detroit, and Grand Rapids. Today Mr. Vasquez’s son and other
children still recall the event and say that it had a positive effect on them.
�Transcript
JOSE JIMENEZ:
Okay, go ahead, Carlos, and give me your full name, date of birth,
and where you were born.
CARLOS VASQUEZ:
I’m Carlos [Raymundo?] Vasquez, born in Ciudad Juárez,
Mexico. August 15, 1953.
JJ:
Oh. Okay, Carlos, if you could give me your name, date of birth, and where you
were born, again.
CV:
Name’s Carlos Raymundo Vasquez. Arrollo -- that’s my mom’s name, maiden
name. So they do it in Mexico, Carlos Raymundo Arrollo Vasquez. I was born in
Ciudad Juárez, Chihuahua.
JJ:
Chihuahua?
CV:
Chihuahua, yep. August 15, 1953. My mom told me a story about me being
born on the 15th, that they were late [00:01:00] for something and she didn’t
wanna have to pay whatever, and they put down the 31st. That’s the story she
gave me. So on my ID, when I was born, they put down the 31st.
JJ:
But you were born --
CV:
But I celebrate the 15th with her from when I was little.
JJ:
But she tells you it was the 15th?
CV:
She tells me the 15th. So I went with that story, what she told me before. Had
nothing to do with whatever, but it was just the story that she told me about it.
That’s the way we celebrated all my life.
JJ:
Okay. So what was Ciudad Juárez like? Did you live there for a while?
1
�CV:
No, I was too little to remember anything. When I came here, I spoke Spanish.
JJ:
What year was that?
CV:
We crossed over in ’57.
JJ:
What do you mean, you crossed over? What was that?
CV:
Well, slowly, because we started from [00:02:00] Durango, where my dad’s from,
and Villa Unión, where my mom’s from, a little town outside of that. So little by
little, we came, going toward the border. It took a few years to get there. My
dad, he was a musician, besides working, so he would do side jobs and stuff like
that, make more money.
JJ:
What kind of music? I mean, what did he play?
CV:
Well, then there’s another story that they told me. My dad would play for some
funerals. They had, like, the kids got sick and something that they were having -a lot of them were passing away for some reason, some disease or something,
and he was playing for funerals.
JJ:
What’s your dad’s name?
CV:
Jesus.
JJ:
Jesus?
CV:
Jesus Cisneros Vasquez.
JJ:
Okay, and your mom’s name?
CV:
Carmen Arrollo Vasquez.
JJ:
Did you have any brothers and sisters?
CV:
[00:03:00] Six other brothers and two sisters.
JJ:
What were their names?
2
�CV:
My oldest brother was Beto -- Albert, Alberto -- and then after, that’d be Luis. My
sister, Yola. Jesus. Pedro. Eduardo. Myself, Carlos. And then my sister, Julia.
But she was the only one that was born in the United States. She was born after
we came over in El Paso, Texas, across from Juárez. So I was too young to
remember a lot of that stuff, like I said. I talked with my older sister and my
brothers and that about it. They all went to school in Mexico. I was raised in
Detroit. My uncle --
JJ:
You mean they stayed behind and you came? So a few came?
CV:
All of us came [00:04:00] at the same time, but --
JJ:
You didn’t go to school.
CV:
No, I was too young.
JJ:
Oh, you’re the youngest.
CV:
Yeah, I was the youngest. There’s seven of us in the boys, and I was the
youngest seventh son. So I was I think three or four. You figure ’53 to ’57, when
we crossed.
JJ:
So you started in ’53, trying to get to the border?
CV:
I was born in Juárez, so we were already there. So we crossed over. My sister
was born a year later or two years later, when we came over to El Paso.
JJ:
And when you say it took a long time, you mean you lived in each town as you
went up?
CV:
No. Well, what from they tell me, it took a little bit, a few years to get over,
because of all the paperwork back then, because it was a large family. And my
uncle brought my dad over here when he was a kid, and there’s pictures of them
3
�when they would be farming, picking, you know? [00:05:00] From what they told
me, he was up in Utah, but they went to Indiana, when she told them about
Michigan, which is why we came to Michigan, because of my Tío Callito, my
dad’s uncle. He’s the one that brought us here.
JJ:
So you were going to farm?
CV:
They were.
JJ:
They were.
CV:
They were, ’cause my dad, he was young in the picture with my uncle when he
came over here when he was a kid. And he went back to Mexico, and that was
his dream, was to bring his family over here and raise them in the United States.
A lot of my relatives stayed in Juárez. Some of them crossed over, raised
families in El Paso, Texas. And other parts of my cousins and aunts went to
California.
JJ:
But you keep saying crossed over. What do you mean?
CV:
They were from Mexico.
JJ:
By plane?
CV:
No, no, no, just crossed the border, from Juárez [00:06:00] to El Paso. That’s the
border. It’s like Detroit, Canada, same thing, you know? But we were the only
family that came up here, my uncle’s family and us, at that time. My other
cousins, them and my aunts, they all went to California, different parts of
California. The other ones stayed in El Paso. I basically spoke Spanish when I
came here, but I entered kindergarten and first grade. Then I lost it. I just started
4
�talking with everybody from the United States and picking up the way they speak.
I used to come home -JJ:
So you remember Detroit. That was the main thing.
CV:
Main thing, yep.
JJ:
You don’t remember anything about Mexico? Nothing?
CV:
Nothing at all.
JJ:
Nothing about Mexico.
CV:
Nope. I couldn’t even tell you about El Paso [00:07:00] then at that time, you
know. The way it went was just growing up in Detroit.
JJ:
Okay, so you’re in Detroit. What part of Detroit?
CV:
When we came, we came over to -- this is from what they tell me -- the I-75
freeway still wasn’t built. So they used to have a theater over there. We
supposedly lived above the theater, and then moved over to Labrosse, which is
Corktown over by Tiger Stadium.
JJ:
Corktown?
CV:
That’s what they call it. Irish community that was there.
JJ:
So when you came, there was an Irish community?
CV:
They were mixed. Irish, Maltese, Polish. Not that many Italians, but it was a
strong community. That was the southwest side of Detroit. That’s where we
grew up. That whole community over there is mostly Latino, [00:08:00] but it’s
mixed.
JJ:
Now? Now it’s Latino?
5
�CV:
No, from what I remember from back then. But we were one of the first families
there --
JJ:
What year was this, about?
CV:
Early ’60s. I remember that.
JJ:
So all this other time, you were in Texas and the other places? I mean, you got
to Detroit in the ’60s.
CV:
Yep, ’57, yeah. All I remember was from the pictures that we have is --
JJ:
So how old were you then? How old were you then?
CV:
That would be four or five years old. First school I went to was Casa Maria.
Okay, that’s a preschool. I graduated from it. They’ve got a photo of me, you
know. Zoology. I was supposed to work with animals. That was the diploma
they gave me. But that’s still there. It’s on Trumbull right down the street from
Tiger Stadium. But it was just a little school [00:09:00] for the kids before they
went into kindergarten. Then they had a school down the street called D. Holton,
which was there on Trumbull, right off of Trumbull. But it’s gone, you know. They
put another building. A lot of the buildings that we grew up in are gone now.
They’ve been replaced with other things. But it’s still that area, right by Tiger
Stadium, Labrosse. That’s where we started. There was a couple other families
that I remember throughout my life that we grew up with. The Rodriguezes, the
Ocegetas. They came from different parts of Mexico.
JJ:
Rodriguez?
CV:
Yeah.
JJ:
And what other family?
6
�CV:
Ocegeta.
JJ:
Ocegeta?
CV:
Yeah, they were around our street and --
JJ:
And your street you said was what?
CV:
Yeah, Labrosse, right. That’s right down the street from Tiger Stadium. We used
to sit on the porch and you could hear the ballgames, and you could hear the
noise and stuff like that. [00:10:00] We stayed in that community for -- it’s on the
other side of what they would say, the Ambassador Bridge, okay? Because it’s
divided Grand Boulevard. If anybody’s been to Detroit, the way that it’s built, they
built Grand Boulevard like a horseshoe around the city. It would start from the
west side and go all the way to the east side and end on Belle Island. So where
we lived was the southwest side over on the other side of Ambassador Bridge on
Grand Boulevard. And in the old days, that’s where all the rich -- not rich, but the
autocar makers or whatever, the people that had money. There’ll all mansions on
that street on West Grand Boulevard, as you go around the whole city. They’ve
got another city called Outer Drive, which is built like a horseshoe around the city.
They would have Woodward, which was the main street that came out of Detroit,
[00:11:00] coming from downtown the river, which split the city. That was one
side, the east side, and the other side, the west side. We grew up on the west
side.
JJ:
So you were living with the Rodriguez and the other?
CV:
Ocegeta.
JJ:
And then you’re growing up with their kids and that?
7
�CV:
Right. Their kids. Everybody back then had large families, you know. You had
eight, nine kids, seven to eight kids. It didn’t matter. Everybody had large
families.
JJ:
And this was a Mexican community?
CV:
Mainly. Well --
JJ:
It was Irish, but then --
CV:
Yeah, downtown. Downtown over by Tiger Stadium, yeah.
JJ:
That was Irish first, but then was changing?
CV:
It was changing at the time. When we came in, like I said, in the phone book, I
remember seeing our last names, Vasquez. You would see maybe two, three
Vazquez in the phone book back in [00:12:00] the early ’60s. As there
progressed, more and more Latinos moved into the neighborhood. But as of our
family, it was my uncle and, you know, my family. But we stayed on Labrosse ’til I
remember going to Casa Maria, and then moving by Clark Park.
JJ:
Clark Park?
CV:
Yeah, that’s when we moved a little bit more west.
JJ:
Is that named after somebody, Clark?
CV:
I was doing a little research on it and it was just a park that had something to do
with somebody in the early ’20s or something. But it was a nice park back then.
They used to use it for -- I don’t know if you remember in the old days, they’d
have the nice, big picnics and stuff like that.
JJ:
So it was a picnic area.
CV:
Right, back then.
8
�JJ:
Is it a pretty big park?
CV:
Clark Park’s about a mile. We used to walk around it or whatever. One mile from
--
JJ:
Is it flat? A lot of trees?
CV:
Yeah, [00:13:00] a lot of trees. In the middle of the city, you know, but when we
moved over there, I went to first grade. All the --
JJ:
What school? What school?
CV:
Maybury. All the schools were around Clark Park. So if you went to Maybury,
you went to grade school one through six. You would cross the park and go to
junior high, which is Amelia Earhart. That was up to seventh to ninth grade. And
then down the street, across from Clark Park, was Western High School, and that
was a high school. So you didn’t really leave the neighborhood when you went
to school. But they had a lot of Catholic schools there where the majority
different families that could afford it would go to Catholic school.
JJ:
Did a lot of the Mexican kids go?
CV:
Right.
JJ:
They did go to --
CV:
Yep. Yep. Like I said, some families had the money. They made good money
back then. And some families, they went to the public schools.
JJ:
Well, where was your father working [00:14:00] at that time?
CV:
From what I remember, they said my dad worked for McLeod Steel for a while.
JJ:
A steel company?
9
�CV:
And he had an injury or something, and that’s how he collected from them for
some reason. Then we bought a house on 10th Street.
JJ:
So were there steel mills there, a lot of them?
CV:
Oh, yeah, big. Ford Motor Company, that’s that neighborhood. The whole car
industry was all around our neighborhood.
JJ:
And it’s based in steel?
CV:
Yep.
JJ:
Okay, I didn’t think about that at the time.
CV:
Yeah, that whole neighborhood’s built around the cars. Everybody worked at
Ford, Chrysler, or GM, whatever. My brothers, they worked for them companies.
And it was all around us, so, like, I remember when I was a kid growing up, it’s all
you see, the semis going by with cars, new cars going from over here, from
Fleetwood, from Cadillacs on Clark Street, going down to Fort Street. Fleetwood,
and then they had Ternstedt, [00:10:00] I think it was. GM’s on Fort Street. So
the whole neighborhood was kind of like when you grew up, you graduated, you
went to work for the auto industry, unless you went to college. Then you went
somewhere else.
JJ:
So like a working class neighborhood, you said?
CV:
Very hard, yeah.
JJ:
But a pretty good job, I mean, working for --
CV:
For the time, considering these times, it was great, you know, because now my
kids, it’s hard for them to find a job unless they graduated, keep going college
and stuff.
10
�JJ:
So at that time, it was pretty good. I mean, everybody was working.
CV:
My brother --
JJ:
So the community was a working class Mexican community. It went to a Mexican
community?
CV:
Yeah.
JJ:
Mainly Mexican.
CV:
Mainly. You know, it’s been mixed, you know what I mean? And Detroit, if you’ve
ever been to Detroit, that’s the only side of town where the Latinos work.
JJ:
Southwest side?
CV:
Southwest side of Detroit.
JJ:
That’s [00:16:00] the only side of town they’re at?
CV:
Yeah, the majority. Still, you can find them here or there, one or two, but not like
you would. It was considered a barrio back then. It started from West Vernor,
which is a street, one of the main streets. Fort Street, Michigan Avenue,
Woodmere, and back over by downtown, Trumbull. That whole area, it’s like a
square area by the Ambassador Bridge. Yep, they have a church, one of the
oldest churches over there. My brothers still work there, Sainte Anne’s. And
that’s right there, right off 18th Street. Bagley was a main street. They got
Mexican town, which is right now --
JJ:
They’ve got a Mexican town?
CV:
Yeah, because of the restaurants. They built a lot of restaurants around there.
But Bagley was a main street where a lot of Latinos lived at that [00:17:00] time.
Twenty-fourth, 18th Street, all that area was all families. [Everybody?] [Solanos?].
11
�I could go on with different families, but I don’t remember all of ’em. I had older
brothers that hung out with different people in the neighborhood.
JJ:
So I mean, you said the families. So one of your brothers hanging around with
one family and another with another family?
CV:
No, they knew us because there were so many brothers. So everybody knew
everybody, you know. By the time I got to high school or got to school, junior
high and that, they already knew who I was because of my brothers. Everybody
went through the school.
JJ:
So this was like, when you say [barrio?], you’re talking about everybody
(inaudible)?
CV:
Right.
JJ:
Not like --
CV:
No, it was a community. It’s a tight community over there, southwest side of
Detroit. Like I said, you go --
JJ:
What made it tight? What made it [00:18:00] a tight community?
CV:
Because I think being Catholic. You know, the churches, okay? That was the
main thing back then. You know, I know that’s what drew my dad and my mom
over there in that area where we lived in Clark Park. Holy Redeemer was over
there. That was one of the main churches. But Sainte Anne’s was the older
church, like I said. When we first came from Mexico, it was the old part of the
neighborhood, which was over by Bagley and the Ambassador Bridge. So when
we made that move from Labrosse over to Clark Park, you know, that was newer
to us. So it got a little more mixed. And gradually as you got towards the end of
12
�the neighborhood, which is Woodmere Cemetery -- that’s over by Dearborn,
which has the largest Arab community in the country. So we grew up with Arabs
on the other side.
JJ:
[00:19:00] So you were connected to the Arabs on one side.
CV:
Oh, yeah, at the end of Detroit on the other side. They came in a little later, but
they grew strong, real big, that community. They bought a lot of businesses.
They liked to make money on the party stores and stuff like that.
JJ:
Was there any friction with them?
CV:
No, not really. It was just they were doing what they did, ’cause as I said,
everybody had jobs back then. Everybody made good money back in the ’60s.
JJ:
So nobody cared about friction.
CV:
No, not like nowadays. Nowadays, you go down there, the neighborhood’s a
little rougher than it was when I grew up. You could stay out late, you know. We
didn’t have no electronics like they do now, these computers, so everybody was
running around on the streets ’til about ten o’clock at night.
JJ:
And these are kids, right?
CV:
[00:20:00] Right.
JJ:
About what age?
CV:
You know, they can be about 7 years old up to 10. They would let them stay out,
as long as they were in front of their house running around.
JJ:
When you were 7 and 10 years old, you were kind of running around?
CV:
In that area around my house.
JJ:
And there were no problems?
13
�CV:
Not like nowadays. The gangs, I would say back then, were like the gangs from
West Side Story, you know what I mean? They had the Bagley Boys and the
Stilettos.
JJ:
The Bagley Boys?
CV:
Yeah.
JJ:
Was the group -- were they Mexican?
CV:
Yeah, they were Latino. They could be mixed, you know.
JJ:
So what were (inaudible)?
CV:
Well, there weren’t that many, like I say, like now. But the thing about them
gangs back then was that they were more kind of like where you grew up in
Chicago. You know, you had your own streets, you know what I mean?
[00:21:00] But it wasn’t as tight of Chicago because of the way Chicago was built.
The houses were real tight over there in Chicago, and you go over there in
Detroit, they’re just a little more suburban, however you like. ’Cause I’ve been to
Chicago and like on the outside outskirts, you know, it was more like that.
JJ:
But you guys had a lot of killers, though. (laughs) Detroit was known for that.
CV:
Detroit had its mafia, but you know, that’s a whole ’nother --
JJ:
So Detroit had a mafia.
CV:
Yeah, that’s a whole ’nother story. That was on the east side, Hastings Street
over down by [Stow Buoy crash?]. We lived on the southwest side. Detroit was
like that back in the early ’20s, you know, ’30s with Al Capone and them guys,
because Capone used to go from Chicago, cross over, come over, and deal with
these guys over here in Michigan.
14
�JJ:
Okay, [00:22:00] so they had a history of the mafia, like Chicago.
CV:
Right.
JJ:
But when you were growing up, were they still on the east side?
CV:
More or less. I’d say yeah. You know, if they were, I was too young to know that
much of it. It was a large Black community. That was the main thing over there
in Detroit. The early ’60s, I remember, was Motown. The music industry was
strong for them back then.
JJ:
And how did that affect you, the Motown music?
CV:
Everybody driving in hot rods. You know, everybody had fast cars back then,
cruising [Glazier?], Woodward, big streets, just like the older movies in the ’50s.
They had their little (audio cuts out) you know, stuff like that where they would
hang out.
JJ:
With those fountain drinks.
CV:
Right, yeah.
JJ:
So they had it there too.
CV:
They had it, yep.
JJ:
Like, a lot of the cities (inaudible). But, I mean, it was bigger because, I mean,
[00:23:00] Motown came from Detroit, so it was a bigger influence or no?
CV:
As far as what?
JJ:
What music did you like at that time?
CV:
That’s the way we grew up. We grew up with Black music, you know. We used
to listen to the old DJs from Philly, different cities. Chicago. Me and my brother
Pedro would stay up. We didn’t watch that much TV. It was a lot of radio.
15
�Everybody had transistor radios back then, carried one in your pocket or
whatever. Then we had a radio in the room. Like in the early ’60s, I remember
listening to Muhammad Ali fight, but he was Cassius Clay back in the early days.
Then I’d stay up and watch boxing with my dad. My family watched a lot of
boxing in the early days. But we didn’t start watching TV that much, you know,
like I said, because we’d be running around at night, [00:24:00] playing around.
And then later on, maybe I’d watch it with my dad.
JJ:
You were running around [in that?] (inaudible).
CV:
Running around like kids do, playing stickball, kick the can, hide and seek, you
know. Just being a kid. Nowadays they don’t do that. Nowadays they sit in front
of a TV and they play with their games, Xbox and the other things. They don’t
branch out as much as they used to. They’ve got their sports, the ones that play
sports, but not like before. But yeah, that community, the music had a big effect
on the way people grew up. You know, the dances and stuff like that. My dad
was a musician and I remember us going -- they had boats. They called them
Boblo boats. They used to take you to this island, which was downriver. It was
Canadian-owned, but you can go. [00:25:00] It was like going to Cedar Point,
and everybody would get on the Boblo boat, take it down the river, go down
there, and they had music on the boat. They’d have bands. They’d dance. They
had two or three floors on the deck, you know. On the 4th of July was Mexican
Boblo, so my dad would go play on the island. He was a musician, so we would
go with him. I remember that.
JJ:
What did he play?
16
�CV:
My dad played saxophone when he was here, but he could play guitar, sax, a
little bit of everything. He was pretty good. But he read. I learned later, but you
know, I learned by ear. Nineteen seventy-one, I think, I started playing. But he
played, like I said, all his life. He played with different bands and stuff besides
working. He ended up working when we were on [McKent?] Street at a graphite
company, you know. That was his last job that he worked. [00:26:00] He worked
there all the way. Small company in the neighborhood off Green, one of the
streets down there.
JJ:
What about your mom? What did she do?
CV:
She stayed home. Back then, the moms didn’t go out and work. You know, they
stayed home with the family and stuff. She mainly wanted to learn how to speak
English. That was real hard for her, so she took classes at Holy Redeemer. I’d
walk her to school every once and a while and she would take a couple classes,
learn how to speak, write, you know, read English. Everybody on her side of the
family were more or less professional people in Mexico -- doctors, nurses,
lawyers, and stuff like that. So they went to school. My dad was a working
family. They worked over there.
JJ:
So your dad, basically his family was more --
CV:
Work-oriented.
JJ:
Just work-oriented?
CV:
[00:27:00] Yeah.
JJ:
Some of them worked in the fields too, you said.
17
�CV:
Right. Well, that’s where they would start. But like I said, I don’t remember that
much history of them in Texas. My brothers had a little more knowledge of what
went on over there. But they all went to school in Mexico. There’s pictures of my
brothers in different grades. So they grew up over there speaking Spanish real
good, and when they came over here, they kept it.
JJ:
But your mom, her family was more professional?
CV:
Well, some of ’em. Not all of ’em. But yeah, they went to school. But when she
got here, you know, she stayed at home most of the time, cooking and watching
the house.
JJ:
She also went to the church.
CV:
Go to church. Them days, we’d go to church quite a bit.
JJ:
So what did your brothers do? (inaudible), what kind of work did they start
doing?
CV:
What?
JJ:
In other words, what kind of work did they start doing? [00:28:00] Your brothers.
’Cause they’re older, right?
CV:
Well, what was weird about it was that I was the youngest brother, so I had two
older brothers -- well, three, Lalo, Pedro, and Jesse, which were a few years
older than me. So they were more my age. And then the other ones were way
older -- Beto, Hector, and Luis. Them guys, I remember Hector went to Chicago.
He took off in the early ’60s. He went to take classes to learn how to weld, so
he’d become a welder. That’s what he did all his life.
JJ:
And he lived in Chicago?
18
�CV:
No, he went over there for a while. He got the training and everything over there
and then he came back. And he was gone, so you know, they --
JJ:
Did he have any family relatives there?
CV:
No. Well, yeah, we did. You know, we had relatives in where your sister’s stays.
JJ:
In Aurora?
CV:
Aurora. I remember going to Aurora [00:29:00] in ’67, ’68. Yeah. You know,
we’d go to --
JJ:
Actually I was living there then.
CV:
And we were going on picnics over there in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. I
remember going there ’cause, yeah, we had relatives over there in the Chicago
area. They had moved. But my dad’s big thing when people come from Mexico
was to bring them here and take them to Niagara Falls. So we would drive
through Canada, go to Niagara Falls, and show them the falls and everything.
He liked to do that.
JJ:
Oh, he liked Niagara Falls?
CV:
Yeah, which is cool because they don’t have that all over. Michigan’s got a lot of
water, you know, more than other states, a lot more stuff to do. We never
ventured on this side of the state, Grand Rapids area over here. You know, it
was always on the east side of the state. That’s where we did stuff.
JJ:
’Cause Grand Rapids is where you’re living today.
CV:
Yeah, I came here in ’93.
JJ:
[00:30:00] Nineteen ninety-three?
CV:
Yep. It was December 21st, 1993. Yep.
19
�JJ:
Okay. Well, we’ll get back to Grand Rapids. So your brothers, one of them went
to Chicago. What about the other ones?
CV:
Well, my brother Albert -- which is the oldest -- he was working different type of
jobs, but he hurt his back. So he went into buffing and polishing. Somehow he
ended up in that, and that’s what I do now. I worked at a brewery for 14 years,
Stroh Brewery, and when I left --
JJ:
This is you. You’re the one working there.
CV:
Yeah, but he got me into what I’m doing now. But I’ll go back to that. Yeah, but
the other brothers, I remember them working for A&P. Luis and Hector welded,
and then Beto did the buffing and polishing. And then [00:31:00] my brother
Jesse and Luis both enlisted to Vietnam in the early ’60s, you know, so they went
over there and they fought.
JJ:
They wanted to go?
CV:
Yeah. Well, the story I got from Jesse was that him and Mickey Baker went out
and got drunk and signed up, and Mickey didn’t sign, and he ended up going and
Mickey didn’t. You know how when you’re young, you do crazy stuff. But he did
wanna go. They wanted to do something, you know, for the country, and then
also they wanted to -- what you say? -- patriotic or whatever, you know. But he
was working at Cadillac right after he got out of school. He was in high school,
graduated, and he went to Cadillac, which is down the street, which is a great
job. But then he went to Vietnam, or he joined the service, ended up in Vietnam.
Luis, the same way. [00:32:00] They were both gone around the same time. And
he came back in 1968. I think he got out then.
20
�JJ:
He got out of the Army service?
CV:
He served his three years, three and a half years, whatever they did, you know.
JJ:
Okay. So then he came back. Did he get a good job?
CV:
No, he changed because Vietnam changes everybody, you know that. There’s a
lot of drugs over there. He wasn’t into the drugs and stuff, but it just changed his
whole -- the whole United States changed in 1968 and 1969. It affected a lot of
people, that war.
JJ:
He didn’t come back that patriotic?
CV:
Well, he took off to California, you know, so he went out there. My cousin’s out
there in East LA. He stayed with them. That’s where he met his wife, up there in
[Bakersville?]. You know, he didn’t get married until later on, but he met her up
there. He lives [00:33:00] in New Mexico. He’s the one that was a truck driver
for a while, you know. But yeah, he went to ’Nam, both of them, and then Lalo
worked at Chrysler. And my brother Pedro, he’s the one that went to Stroh
Brewery. He’s the one that got me into Stroh. I got in there when I was 17 years
old, 18. Yeah, I was 18, 17, 18 years old when I got in there. I got married right
away.
JJ:
So how long did you work at Stroh?
CV:
Fourteen years, until they closed. Fourteen and a half years, ’til ’84. Then they
shut it down.
JJ:
And what kind of work did you do there? What were you doing there?
CV:
Easy work, you know. Bottles get jammed on the line in the pasteurizer. I was a
relief man later on, give everybody breaks. But anything to do with the bottling
21
�and the packaging, that’s what area -- I ran the machines. They got a Coca-Cola
plant. I could’ve got a job [00:34:00] here. But I didn’t wanna go back and doing
what I did before. You know, so I wanted to try something new, and that’s when
my brother showed me how to buff and polish when I left there ’cause I didn’t go
to school. I should’a went to school.
JJ:
You didn’t go to school at all? What do you mean?
CV:
Well, I got married right away. Eleventh grade, I went up to there.
JJ:
So you went up to eleventh grade?
CV:
Yep, and then I just started working right away.
JJ:
So what high school did you go to?
CV:
I was in Western, like everybody else.
JJ:
Everybody else? Did that mean (inaudible)?
CV:
Yeah, that was as far as I got.
JJ:
And then after that, you dropped out?
CV:
My wife got pregnant. We got married. But I married her the following year, you
know. So I went to work. It was funny because I went to work for the Detroit
[Line?] Company, which makes steel. Line, they put inside the steel. I think I
was 16 and a half years old, working there, and they had them -- you know them
jacks that you use to break [00:35:00] cement? Well, they used them to break -they’ve gotta kiln, you know. They heat up the line in these ovens. Well, they
shut ’em down and you’ve gotta climb in these little doors, and you take that thing
and you’ve gotta hit it up against the wall. You’ve gotta hold it and break that
stuff loose, I mean. I didn’t like that. Now, that’s 16, 17 years old, you know.
22
�Just too rough, the type of work for me at the time. I didn’t last. But I did that for,
you know, maybe about three, four months.
JJ:
But eleventh, you almost graduated.
CV:
Right, but I never continued ’cause I got a good job at the brewery. They paid
what the auto industry paid. We were making, you know, the same type of
money they were back then at Stroh, and it was a real simple job. There was
nothing really -- you couldn’t do if you know how to drive a hi-lo, how to package,
run the machines, and stuff like that. [00:36:00] It wasn’t automated like
Budweiser and them other companies. That’s why they paid it out. It took too
many people to operate that company at the time.
JJ:
So that was a good job.
CV:
Oh, yeah.
JJ:
You didn’t need to go to school to get it. You already had it.
CV:
I messed up that way.
JJ:
But you already had a good job.
CV:
Right. That’s what I’m saying. Nowadays, it’s rough with kids because you can’t
walk out of school and walk into a good job. Not no more. You need school, you
know? You’ve gotta have that diploma in order to move ahead. Let me see,
Lalo. But, yeah, Pedro got me in there, and then my sister Julia, she worked as
an insurance claim adjuster. So she ended up doing that. My sister Yola, she
ended up working for the -- ’cause she was bilingual at the time. It was early
bilingual (inaudible).
JJ:
Now, were you bilingual [00:37:00] [then?]?
23
�CV:
No.
JJ:
You were bilingual later? You’re bilingual now.
CV:
I learned how to speak Spanish here in Grand Rapids. My Spanish was real
bad. I boycotted it for some reason when I was young. You know, when you’re a
hippie in the early days, you wanna hang out with --
JJ:
You were a hippie?
CV:
Oh, yeah, big time. Yeah. Yeah, yep.
JJ:
Okay.
CV:
You know, that’s why I played guitar. I went into the music. I liked the
atmosphere, you know, the music. I wish I would’ve learned the way my dad
would’ve taught me back then. I would know more. But now when I listen to the
songs that [Patrick was pulling down there?], all them trios and stuff, you know,
it’s all great music, all the stuff that the guys did back then. But I got into it, like I
said, in the ’70s, but everything changed in ’68, ’69. The neighborhood changed.
JJ:
How did the [00:38:00] neighborhood change?
CV:
’Cause everything was Motown. Everything was Black. Everything. The music.
Everybody dressed up. And once ’69 came, everybody started wearing jeans.
They loosened up, you know, let their hair grow, hanging out.
JJ:
You had at that time?
CV:
But I was married, you know. I got married right away and I was working. My
friends, a lot of them were on the corner. I’d go home to my family, you know
what I mean?
JJ:
Okay, now, all your friends were on the corner?
24
�CV:
Well, the majority of them.
JJ:
And when you say on the corner, what do you mean?
CV:
From my neighborhood, it’s like that’s where everybody would hang out.
JJ:
What street?
CV:
Vernor. Clark Park.
JJ:
They would just be hanging out on the corners?
CV:
Well, there were certain corners. Toledo and Junction. Everybody had their own
little corners where people would just meet and just talk, you know, hang out.
JJ:
And they drank?
CV:
[00:39:00] Oh, yeah, and they’d go into Clark Park, that kind of thing, different
parks in areas.
JJ:
Drugs?
CV:
Drugs was big time in Detroit back then. A lot of heroin. Yeah, there were a lot of
heroin users back then in the neighborhood. A lot of overdoses.
JJ:
A lot of overdoses were going on at that time?
CV:
Yep.
JJ:
’Cause this was the Vietnam War era.
CV:
A lot of those guys -- like, I met this guy, Jerry Manchaka, at Stroh. He’d come
back from ’Nam, and another guy, Bud. They were telling me stories on how they
got hooked over there in Vietnam. They would smoke heroin, you know. I didn’t
do it. That was one drug I didn’t mess with. You know, I ventured into other stuff,
but like I said, I was always with my family. So as long as I had my job, that kept
me straight.
25
�JJ:
You mentioned (inaudible).
CV:
I tried to smoke weed. You know, drank wine. I didn’t drink beer. I worked in the
brewery, started at 17. I didn’t have a beer until I was 25. [00:40:00] Them guys
that sits there, you have free beer in the lunch room, you know, at Stroh. It was
part of the contract.
JJ:
It was part of the job, right?
CV:
A lot of them guys became alcoholics.
JJ:
But you didn’t drink beer at that time.
CV:
No.
JJ:
So you drank wine.
CV:
Smoke weed and drank wine.
JJ:
You drank wine at that time. A lot of people in the neighborhood drank wine too.
So that was just common.
CV:
That was just the routine, the way we hung out.
JJ:
In Chicago, they drank Richards.
CV:
Ripple? You know, Thunderbird, Night Train, whatever.
JJ:
Is that the kind of wine you were talking about?
CV:
Yeah.
JJ:
High-class wine.
CV:
I’d say I ventured into a little Spumoni, you know. Nah, it’s just neighborhood
stuff over there. You know how it is when you go up. My brothers, my brother
Pedro, you know, he hung out on the streets a little more -- him and Lala -- a little
more. It wasn’t what I did, because they didn’t get married. He didn’t get married
26
�’til [00:41:00] later, you know. But everybody grew up in the same neighborhood.
I left there in, oh -- Nick was born -- ’74, ’75. My brother died. Overdose. My
brother Pedro.
JJ:
Of heroin?
CV:
No, he had valiums and some other drugs when he was drinking, and they said
he fell asleep and, you know, he died in his sleep. But that was in 1975. So it
was about the time I left the neighborhood. I moved outside of Detroit. It was
over by Dearborn Heights area. That’s where I bought a house later on, around
that area. But he was -- out of any of my brothers on the street, I would say he
stayed right there on Toledo and Junction. They had a bar right there and them
guys would all hang out right there. But he was married. You know, he had his
family.
JJ:
You know, you’re seeing all your friends [00:42:00] going to drugs and all that.
What was your thinking? I mean, you know, why didn’t you go into it? How did
you look at them?
CV:
What do you mean?
JJ:
In other words, you must’ve said, these guys are stupid, or something. I mean,
how did you look at them?
CV:
No, a lot of them were making money on the side. Everybody always made
money. I didn’t like that. I just didn’t like the atmosphere.
JJ:
You just didn’t like? You just said, I’m not playing?
CV:
I didn’t like the traffic because I have kids. You know, I’d bring them over to the
house, but it’s just when you’re married, it’s a different story. Some people don’t
27
�care. But like I said, I’d hang out with certain people, and plus I was in a band.
There was drugs around all the time. You know, but something told me about it,
not to get too crazy. Later on, I did, in the ’80s. But that was stupid.
JJ:
Yeah, you fought it [00:43:00] for a while. You didn’t --
CV:
No, that’s how I ended up over ’80s -- well, the ’80s, ’90s, early ’90s when I
ended up over in the rehab. That got me over here in Grand Rapids, you know,
drinking and doing drugs. But the early part, like when we were raising my kids, I
was kind of just maintaining. I always knew I had to get up at 6:00 in the morning
and go to work. Even though I hung out at a bar, played music at night. I’d be
there ’til 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning. I was the one that ran the band, made sure
the equipment was put away and everything. I’d walk in the house about 3:30. I
have to get up at 6:00. But it was extra money.
JJ:
So you were like the band leader, then.
CV:
Right.
JJ:
And you guys played what kind of music?
CV:
Rock and roll.
JJ:
Rock and roll?
CV:
Yep, Top 40. But it was rough back then because in my neighborhood, they
didn’t accept it.
JJ:
What do you mean?
CV:
Well, there was nothing but Mexican bands. You know, Latino music. And all the
bars we played, you know, we’d have to ask [00:44:00] the bar owner if we could
play this type of music. I mean, they had Santana, you know, Mongo
28
�Santamaría, and different bands like that. But when you walked in the
neighborhood in Detroit at that time, it was all -JJ:
You’re talking about rock and roll.
CV:
Yeah, like we’d be playing some Bob Seger, you know? And then these guys -this is in the [Abara?] Lounge. And right after we get done, a Tex Mex music
would go up or a Mexican band would go up there and start playing. We played
a lot of talent shows over there. But we ventured up out of that neighborhood, go
downriver. That’s where we ended up most of the time, playing.
JJ:
Downriver?
CV:
Yeah. Detroit’s [wine?] area. You know, Detroit, the southwest side of Detroit,
you’ve got Allen Park, Lincoln Park, Southgate. There’s a lot of communities
going downriver. Detroit runs -- coming from Lake Erie, you know, coming from
that area. So a lot of communities were going that way. [00:45:00] I hung
around the (audio cuts out). They’re close-knit, the music industry over there for
them guys. It was hard to get a job over there for us. But we did all right. I
mean, I had fun. I made money. You know, that was the main thing I was doing.
I learned how to play, yeah. But you know, you were saying about the music.
Back then in the early ’70s, that changed everybody. Like I said, ’68, ’69 was just
the music, Vietnam, the whole thing. You guys were doing the same thing over
there in Chicago, but over here, I remember going downtown ’cause Downtown
Detroit was happening back then. We had Kennedy Square, which was right
there in the middle, and they’d have a lot of events going on. The Hare Krishna
would be out there and the Black Panthers. [00:46:00] You always had to go
29
�through them in order to get into the store. They’re gonna hand you a pamphlet
and they’re gonna talk to you, and they’re gonna try and sell you something or
they’re gonna try and recruit you, you know. Not that much Hare Krishna, but the
Black Panthers were real good at that.
JJ:
Trying to recruit?
CV:
Talked to different people. Talked to them about what their cause, you know?
JJ:
What’d you think about the Hare Krishna and the Black Panthers?
CV:
Black Panthers, I liked them guys, you know, because I liked the way they talked.
They knew a little bit more. The Hare Krishna were into some type of religion or
a belief that I really wasn’t into.
JJ:
But you could understand a little bit about the Black Panthers, you were saying?
CV:
Back then yeah.
JJ:
But you didn’t agree with them.
CV:
I didn’t disagree with them because I was a minority. But they stuck together. To
me, they were badass because they were tight. You know, you see [00:47:00]
four Black guys dressed in leather all walking, strutting down the street real
strong. That was unity. Them guys, they showed it back then.
JJ:
Were you familiar with any other groups?
CV:
They had Brown Panthers in the high school, in the neighborhood. I knew a few
guys that were into that.
JJ:
The Brown Panthers or Brown Berets?
CV:
Brown Berets. Yeah. Yeah, Brown Berets.
JJ:
Okay, they had Brown Berets in (inaudible), you were saying?
30
�CV:
Yeah, a couple guys, you know. But like I said, I was into music. I’d be there like
anybody else, listening to what they had to talk about, stuff like that. But my
main thing was that they were for their cause, you know what I mean? And I was
into something else, which only drove me away. Maybe if I was single at the
time, you know, and I wasn’t into music, I might’ve did something. My son Benny
does that now. He’s strong in the community [00:48:00] on the southwest side of
Detroit right now. But they were all over, you know? Everywhere you went
downtown, you ran into ’em ’cause they had Hudson’s, Crowley’s, Woolworth’s,
you know, different stores you had to go shop in. We didn’t have malls.
JJ:
And the Panthers were there?
CV:
Outside. You know, outside on the corner. If you crossed at the light, they would
be there.
JJ:
What about the Brown Berets? Were they anywhere?
CV:
Not as bad. Not as much. But they would be there at Kennedy Square. You’d
see different groups. And then if you ventured off to Ann Arbor, where we went
once in a while, they had the White Panthers. That was John Sinclair. Michael
Lynn, I met him in 1969. He was from Highland Park and he was into that. He
understood a little bit more. He was a little bit older, you know, than I was. But
he was into that. So he would always call me. “Hey, they’re gonna have a
speech over here. Let’s go.” [00:49:00] And I’d go with him because I liked the
crowds, and I’d go with him. But he knew what they were talking about and he
would follow them.
JJ:
And he was your friend, so you kind of just --
31
�CV:
What’s that?
JJ:
He was your friend, so you kinda hung out with him?
CV:
All the time. He became godfather to my daughter. Yeah, I met him. He used to
sell shoes at Griggle’s, sporting goods. You know, later on, he sold clothes. But
we were real tight back then. In ’69, I met him.
JJ:
Now, you’re growing up in the United States. I mean, you’re rooting for the
United States, right? So how did (inaudible) these people are attacking the
United States, the Panthers and the Brown Berets and all them.
CV:
They had a lot of --
JJ:
Could you relate to some of them?
CV:
Well, they had a lot of problems with the police, you know, back then, them guys.
[00:50:00] We used to have a thing called the Big Four. There were four cops
that rolled in a car instead of one, and when they came around, they got out.
Something was gonna happen. They don’t get out of the car unless they were
gonna do, you know, some harm to somebody. I mean, they wouldn’t put you in
the hospital, but they’d make sure they’d make a point. They had three or four
cars like that that would cruise the neighborhood. You know, and we had the
riots in ’67 over there off 12th Street. That shut down the community and the
southwest side of Detroit. They had the National Guard in Clark Park.
JJ:
What do you mean? You had the riots in the Mexican [crew?]?
CV:
No, but it ventured off as far as Bagley and 18th. They had problems with, you
know, people. The National Guard and some people in the neighborhood.
JJ:
Were they Mexican or Black?
32
�CV:
Both.
JJ:
It was both Mexican and Black together?
CV:
Both there. They had a few. You know, but the main thing was downtown, over
by Motown area, where the [00:51:00] old Motown is. They had problems.
That’s where it started. But, you know, that was an event that -- ’67, yeah, like I
said, right around then -- then after ’67, after the riots, a lot of white people
started leaving Detroit. You know, they didn’t like the way things were moving.
JJ:
It was a white flight.
CV:
Somewhere around there. The northwest community, you know. I remember my
brother, his brother-in-law, his mom lived out there towards Greenfield. You
know, I didn’t venture much out of my neighborhood. There was an Irish family,
the Sullivans, that moved to Dearborn Heights when I was a kid, and I took a bus
trip out there one time. That was my first time in the suburbs, you know.
[00:52:00] It changed. At that time, it changed (inaudible). But my family, like I
said, they stayed in that neighborhood for quite a while. I was one of the first
ones to leave the neighborhood.
JJ:
It changed a lot (inaudible)?
CV:
As far as drugs, as far as jobs, you know, as far as leaving the community and
stuff like that, at that time, because everybody was moving. But certain families
stayed, you know what I mean?
JJ:
Your father stayed?
CV:
What’s that?
JJ:
Your mother and father decided to stay.
33
�CV:
No, they stayed. They stayed on Macken Street ’til -- it had to be late ’70s. Then
they moved over. My brother had a house over there on Logan on the other side.
It was still considered the southwest side of Detroit, but it was a little upside of
the old neighborhood (inaudible). [00:53:00] And my mom and dad moved over
that way, took over that house -- my brother Hector’s house.
JJ:
And your friends, as you were growing up, were they Mexican? White?
CV:
Mixed.
JJ:
Black?
CV:
Uh-huh. I hung around with a lot of people from Tennessee and Kentucky. I
remember them guys. I learned a lot from them dudes, you know? Hillbillies, we
called them back then.
JJ:
Was there a hillbilly community there?
CV:
Oh, yes. Oh, yeah.
JJ:
Good size?
CV:
Yeah, real strong. Yeah.
JJ:
We have that in Chicago.
CV:
They were Baptists, you know, a lot of them.
JJ:
They were what?
CV:
Baptists. Yeah, they weren’t Catholic, you know. But the mom and the dad were
real strong, same way like my mom, dad. Like, once I started growing my hair
and hanging out with these other people, they didn’t -- we had a bar down the
street called Dixie Bell. [00:54:00] That was all country music, and all I
remember as a kid was a lot of people fighting in the alleys when they come out
34
�of there because I used to have to go get food for my dad at Pete’s Steakhouse,
and I have to go by there about 2:00 in the morning. Them guys would be
coming out. But, yeah, they had Hank Williams. He cruised through there.
Patsy Cline. You know, and it’s just a little bar on the corner, but it was there on
Vernor, you know? They had a few of ’em, but they were in the community. We
knew a lot of them. But they were in cars, hot rods. Back then, that’s what I
remember. (inaudible)
JJ:
Now, there’s a stereotype that they didn’t like Mexicans or Blacks.
CV:
No. We got along. Maybe down South, but not in Detroit. The ones from
Detroit, they were like anybody else. They were in the gangs on whatever
corner. They would hang out with whoever. Back then, [00:55:00] it depends -you know how it is in the street -- how tough you were. That’s where you made
your mark. If you could beat up so many people, people look up to you. That’s
what it was back then. They didn’t shoot nobody. That stuff didn’t come on ’til
later on. That’s when Detroit got bad, you know. These other gangs, the
younger guys started carrying guns. And when I left in ’93, it was real bad.
That’s when the Counts took over the neighborhood.
JJ:
Yeah. Counts?
CV:
The Latin Counts.
JJ:
The Latin Counts?
CV:
Yeah. A couple of guys from Chicago -- older guys -- started them.
JJ:
So Latin Counts from Chicago, moved to Detroit?
35
�CV:
I don’t know if they were from Chicago, but two older guys started it. That’s what
I remember. And them guys were over there on the southwest side. Then all of
the sudden, different gangs started branching out in the neighborhood.
JJ:
So they became big, the Latin Counts?
CV:
In that neighborhood, yeah, at the time.
JJ:
In the southwest side.
CV:
Right, [00:56:00] at that time.
JJ:
And then what other Spanish gangs were there?
CV:
Well, I don’t know if they were Spanish, but you know, the Cash Flow. They had
different gangs. Yeah, but they weren’t as big. They didn’t cause as much
trouble. I just remember when we used to go to a party store, we’d go to pick up
some beer and stuff, and we’d be sitting in the car and these kids are coming
down the alley shooting. And they’re shooting at somebody going into the party
store, and everybody’s running and hiding and taking off in their cars. But these
are 12-year-old kids with guns. They didn’t care. They were recruited by the
older guys to do what they had to do. A lot of it was drugs at that time, you know.
By the time I left when I went into rehab, that’s when it started getting a little
crazy.
JJ:
Okay, so you say you went to rehab. How old were you then?
CV:
Forty.
JJ:
You were about 40.
CV:
I quit drinking when I was 40. I’m gonna be 59 this year. [00:57:00] Right. I
don’t know. It was just --
36
�JJ:
That’s 19 years?
CV:
I think so. Right, ’93?
JJ:
That you haven’t drank? Yeah.
CV:
Ninety-three.
JJ:
You say you were 40 when you quit.
CV:
Right, yeah. Yeah, that would be right.
JJ:
Okay. So what happened then? Were you married? Did you divorce?
CV:
Well, that was the thing. Our marriage fell apart. I had lost the house and moved
back to the neighborhood and bought another house. I was buffing and polishing
and working a lot of hours and drinking and staying at work and hanging out after
work and stuff. Yeah, so I grew apart from my wife, you know. She got tired of it.
She just said, you know, “You’d rather do what you’re doing. I’m 40. I wanna still
do part of something with my life.” We separated. [00:58:00] It went from there.
And then I’d say that was --
JJ:
And you had how many kids?
CV:
Three.
JJ:
What are their names?
CV:
Antoinette, Dominic, and Benito. Benny wasn’t born until 10 years later, you
know. We raised two of them, basically, and then when I went back to that
community, that’s where I raised Ben for a little bit. I was --
JJ:
And you weren’t married with anyone else before?
CV:
No. All my life.
JJ:
What was her name?
37
�CV:
Linda. Linda, yeah. They were from the Albion area over by Jackson, her family.
Her dad, he was real like a hustler.
JJ:
She’s Mexican too?
CV:
Yep. Yeah. Her dad, he used to sell tortillas, take ’em to Lansing, Jackson, you
know. He’d drive in a van long before any of these other trucks were doing it.
But I remember [00:59:00] helping him. It was ’69. That’s when I started going to
her house. But he would drive all the way over to Ann Arbor and they had
different stores. They’d make a road trip and deliver tortillas to the little, you
know, Mexican stores that they had in that community. Lansing was a large
community for that. Another thing I remember in the old days was the
quinceañeras, you know? I remember a lot of them growing up.
JJ:
What is a quinceañera?
CV:
When a girl turns 15, 16, that’s womanhood for them. They get dressed like a
wedding dress type thing and they throw it for them. They have a dance, that
thing in the church.
JJ:
What do you remember? You said you remember the quinceañeras.
CV:
A lot of fights. (laughter) A lot of fights after. It’s cousins and cousins, but it was
alcohol. I remember. And the dancing, [01:00:00] you know. I wasn’t into that
that much, but it’s family. I had to go. But quinceañeras were a strong part of the
Latin community back then, for Mexicans, I know that.
JJ:
So you’re talking about a community that was pretty solid with quinceañeras, with
the church.
CV:
Right.
38
�JJ:
Baseball teams and all of that? Soccer, I guess. Soccer.
CV:
That, I don’t remember that much. Like I said. But baseball, oh, yeah.
JJ:
Hardball or softball?
CV:
Hardball. Clark Park had their leagues. They’ve got a guy’s name over there on
a plaque in Clark Park, Angel. I grew up with him and he worked with a lot of the
kids over there in the community when they were playing ball and stuff.
JJ:
Yeah, were there any organizations (inaudible)? Do you remember?
CV:
La SED.
JJ:
La SED?
CV:
Yeah, that helped people get jobs and stuff like that. [01:01:00] My niece works
for Western -- well, it’s not Western High School anymore. It’s International. I
think they changed the name. She’s not probation, but when you skip school.
JJ:
Truant officer.
CV:
Truant officer. Christina. The last I remember, she was doing that. She was
working for them.
JJ:
Didn’t your family get involved in the political events too or no?
CV:
I can’t vote. I’m not a citizen.
JJ:
Oh, you’re not a citizen?
CV:
No, I haven’t given them my citizenship from Mexico.
JJ:
Why is that? I mean, you’ve been here for how many years?
CV:
Oh, too many. I’ve paid my dues. It’s just something I don’t wanna do.
Everybody bugs me about it, but my mom’s buried in Cuare. We buried her in
39
�’94. My dad’s buried [01:02:00] in Detroit, you know, but just something I don’t
wanna do.
JJ:
But, I mean, why? Don’t you feel American?
CV:
You can’t get more American than the way I speak, but it was when I came here,
I went into rehab. I wanted to go into HRP because it was Hispanic. I wanted to
become more --
JJ:
You wanna hear more about your culture?
CV:
There you go. Right.
JJ:
Hispanic Residential Program.
CV:
Right.
JJ:
That’s what HRP stands for?
CV:
Yeah. The lady who sent me there, she told me, you know, “You can go over
there to the other place.” I said, “No, I wanna be with people that speak Spanish.
I wanna learn how to speak Spanish better.”
JJ:
So HRP is the rehab, that you wanted to go there.
CV:
Project Rehab was the name of it. I was seeing an outpatient at the Latino
Services in Detroit. She was a [crude?] lady, and it was around Christmastime.
[01:03:00] She was leaving for vacation and I had seen her a couple times. She
said, “I’m gonna go on vacation.” I told her I wanted to go somewhere where
they could keep me from drinking because I told her, “I’ve got a jumbo in the car.
As soon as I get done talking with you, I’m gonna go open the jumbo and just go
back and drink. So I need to be locked up, basically, but I don’t wanna go to jail.”
So she showed me a pamphlet of the Project Rehab, which was a pine tree with
40
�two people sitting out in the country. When I came over here, it’s over here on
Eastern. It’s like Detroit, you know? It’s in the neighborhood. It’s in the city. But
the good thing about it was I met a lot of people. It changed my life, you know.
JJ:
So you felt that you needed to be locked up. Why?
CV:
Because of the way I was drinking. Because I had lost my family, [01:04:00] you
know. Just the change in my life at that time. I quit working, you know? Right
toward the end of there, I quit working.
JJ:
So you were drinking before you lost your family.
CV:
Right. It got worse. It got worse. That’s what it did. My daughter told me, she
said, “You’ve gotta do something.” So like I said, I turned 40. I said, “I’ve gotta
do something to change it. I’ve gotta make a move.” So I went into the rehab.
JJ:
What was rehab like?
CV:
A learning process.
JJ:
When you first got here, what happened?
CV:
I got the DDTs. You know, I met Dave Perez. He was I guess a gang member
from another part of the city, from this part of Grand Rapids. He’d come and pick
me up at the bus station over here on Wealthy. I had not stopped drinking for so
long that the bus ride, by the time I got here, [01:05:00] I had the DDTs, you
know, the shakes. Real bad. So when a couple guys in there offered me a glass
of apple juice, I couldn’t hold it with two hands, I was shaking so bad. They were
laughing at me, you know. You’re gonna get cured in here, from that, so I liked
their attitude. One was from New York and the other one was Lenny. He was
41
�from Muskegon. So it was just meeting other people and, you know, learning.
Another learning process. I did a lot of reading.
JJ:
You did a lot of reading, but what were you reading?
CV:
The stuff that they had in there, the information, you know, about alcoholism, as
much as I could. The 12-step program. I went from being part of to running
meetings, [01:06:00] and ended up in the kitchen, cooking, ’cause I liked to cook.
You know, just being part of the --
JJ:
So everybody had a job or something?
CV:
In the rehab, in order for you to participate in everything, you had to do a chore,
some type of chore. Either vacuum, clean the bathroom. You know, they gave
you something to do, so it was a process that helped you.
JJ:
Now, this was a Hispanic program.
CV:
They had the Bolan.
JJ:
I mean, what type of Latinos did they have in there?
CV:
Huh?
JJ:
What type of Hispanics were there?
CV:
That was the thing. That’s the first time I met Cubans and Puerto Ricans. I hung
around them before, but not as much as I did here. When I went on a trip to
Detroit, I had to go see -- because my sister-in-law passed away. I picked up my
guitar and I brought it back to the rehab, and then I started jamming with
[01:07:00] these guys, playing Latino music, learning songs, making songs,
singing, and playing in the room. So it kind of changed my attitude, you know. I
wanted to be part of.
42
�JJ:
It changed your attitude? Before you didn’t like it?
CV:
I was strictly into rock and roll, into (audio cuts out), you know, you name it.
JJ:
And now you’re more into the culture, your culture’s music, because rock and roll
is part of the culture of Black. Latinos too that grew up with it.
CV:
Right, but in the ’70s, the music changed where --
JJ:
I mean, Latinos grow up with whatever.
CV:
Well, I was talking to Patrick about that ’cause they had these bands, the
(inaudible) All-Stars and the musicians from New York and stuff like that when
salsa came out. These guys introduced me to all that. There’s Mexican music,
which my sister and them, and all that [01:08:00] they know about. So I had to
relearn all this stuff. It was new to me to get into it, let alone that. I had to learn
Spanish. So that’s when I started hanging around with different people over
here, and that’s all they spoke. So little by little, I picked it up.
JJ:
So you’re in the program. About how long were you in the program?
CV:
I went in in December 21st, I think it was, before Christmas, and I got out at the
end of April, right before May. About four months, yeah.
JJ:
And then you go back to Detroit?
CV:
I was gonna go to Muskegon, you know, but I got talked out of it and stayed here.
I got a room with Analita. You know, I think you helped me out over there. You
knew her, or somebody did. Yeah, that was over there by the rehab, and I stayed
with her and stayed in the [01:09:00] Grand Rapids area. So I’ve been here
since. As soon as I got out of there, I got a job through Yolanda Wilson. She
used to get people jobs that came out of jail, so she got me a job in the buffing
43
�and polishing. That’s where I ended up working in the McDonald’s industry. I
worked there for about a year, and then I went to where I’m at now. I’ve been
there since. I’ve been lucky. A lot of people change a lot of jobs.
JJ:
Did you continue with treatment after that?
CV:
Yeah, I participated with meetings, Latino support groups.
JJ:
And you were one of the leaders of that.
CV:
Right, helped out, (inaudible).
JJ:
It was something that we started, right?
CV:
Right. And that helped me out a lot because, you know --
JJ:
That was, like, 12-step with -- they had music in it and everything else.
CV:
[01:10:00] It involved a little bit of everything. I liked it more than the other one
because I went to meetings at these other places, to the Al-Anon Club, and I just
feel alienated. Not saying nothing bad about these people, but it was like a
clique and I wasn’t in the clique. I didn’t feel right. Yeah, I met one guy that knew
Patrick and I ran into him later on in the years, and he says he was my sponsor.
I said, “I don’t remember you.” He said, “Oh, yeah, I gave you my number,” and
blah blah blah. “I’m sorry,” I said. I’m pretty good with faces, especially if you’re
Latino. But, yeah, it was a learning process, that’s what it was for me, both
learning how to stay away from alcohol -- you know, my problem was I hung out
at the bars all the time. I shot pool, stayed with the guys. It didn’t matter. I’d
stay late. [01:11:00] And then to come here and just quit, you know, a lot of
people in Detroit, they didn’t think I would do it. They were just saying, “You’ll be
back.” Which, you know, it’s hard because a lot of people, when I go back to
44
�Detroit, they’re in the same bar stool when I left. My sister, she still drinks. I’m
not the type of person to preach to people a lot. I recommend. That’s as far as I
go. I mean, I did what I did because, you know, I wanted to change my life. I
wanted to do something positive. And then I got a son, Benny, which does the
same thing. But he contributes to the community. Every day, he’s at Clark Park,
working with the kids, teaching them how to breakdance and just to be part of, do
different things.
JJ:
In fact, [01:12:00] he’s had a group or something? What’s the name of it?
CV:
Motor City Rockers. The Motor City Rockers, right. I think he had some pictures
he posted up. They did Tiger Stadium a couple times. Them guys would play up
there in front, you know. They do their breakdance and they’re pretty good. But
the main thing about it is that they reach out to the kids. They start a really
young age and they go all the way up. A lot of his cousins are part of what he
does, you know, his mom and everybody else. My son Nick --
JJ:
A lot of them, it keeps them out of the gangs too.
CV:
Yeah. Well, on the streets. I don’t know if the gangs are as strong as they were
before, but it keeps them off the streets is the main thing. They’ve got other
programs over there that other people run, but Benny’s just a small part.
JJ:
(inaudible)?
CV:
Huh?
JJ:
The place that Benny works with?
CV:
Benny works with [01:13:00] (inaudible) and [Lawndale?].
JJ:
Okay, but he does work on the side.
45
�CV:
Huh?
JJ:
He works out of the place too on his own?
CV:
His is now on his own. I don’t know if he’s still working for the same people, but
they gave him the building where he would have classes and he would have
them people come and (inaudible).
JJ:
Now, you said your other son.
CV:
Nick, he works on houses. A lot of the housing in Detroit is -- people left. There
were a lot of houses being torn down and empty. Nick goes in. He works for a
company that buys these houses and fixes them and sells them or rents them,
whatever’s left. Detroit goes all the way to Eight Mile. It’s pretty big, you know,
so a lot of it’s empty. Everybody left, like I told you. The communities, they were
the first to leave, and then little by little, everybody else started leaving. But it
ain’t like Grand Rapids where they fix [01:14:00] houses. They’ll burn a house
because of some reason or they’ll level it.
JJ:
Now, I met you at HRP also, right? What was I doing there?
CV:
You were a counselor. You were working there. You weren’t one of my
counselors right away, but we would go out to a lot of road trips with you, I
remember.
JJ:
Because before, they didn’t want people to go out.
CV:
Right. And then the other thing was we had to go to certain churches. We
wanted to go to a Catholic church, but they told us whatever type of church they
went to. But any type of trip to Meijer’s or anything was good to get out of there.
You know, it wasn’t a bad place to be. There’s food and somewhere to sleep. As
46
�long as you followed the rules, everything was okay. But they had a few guys
that would venture out, sneak out, [01:15:00] and they’d end up doing bad. But it
was a good setup. It’s changed a little bit from what it was.
JJ:
So the program was pretty good. I mean, we were able to go out to the different
things.
CV:
Yeah, I helped a few people I would say down the line. I met a lot of people, and
then they were in the same boat, what I was in. I went to AA for a while after
that, but I quit going. I didn’t drink no more, but it’s just something I didn’t do no
more. I quit going.
JJ:
You helped out with the Latino support group.
CV:
For a long time.
JJ:
That we founded, that we started.
CV:
Right, and then we did Lincoln Park thing.
JJ:
Camp.
CV:
The camp with the kids, the KO Club.
JJ:
So you got involved with me with the Lincoln Park camp. And what was that like?
I know you did music and [01:16:00] some (inaudible).
CV:
Right. What I liked about it was it was something outside the city, you know. I
really liked it over in the area by Youngs Lake, that little campground that we had.
You had the music. You had the boats, you know, the little things. The campfires.
It was just nice. I wish that happened all the time. I love when we hear -- this is
like where I live right now, Grandville. It’s like by over there (inaudible). To see
these kids running around here, and they have programs for ’em here. Don’t get
47
�me wrong. But it ain’t like that one where you would see a bunch of these kids
taking off to a camp. The city’s changing, this city, since I’ve been here.
JJ:
Okay, so Lincoln Park Camp. Yeah, I think we had people come from Chicago
also, right?
CV:
Yeah.
JJ:
So (inaudible) the purpose of the camp. [01:17:00] Do you remember?
(inaudible) not clear.
CV:
Now I wouldn’t. But back then, I know we had to do with the Young Lords and
the Lincoln Park Project, which was something that was going on over there with
DePaul University and Chicago. I made a lot of road trips with you out to Denver
for the 30th anniversary for something they had out there with the Latinos out
there.
JJ:
Corky Gonzales.
CV:
Corky Gonzales. I got to see a lot of people. The guy in the Indians (inaudible),
there were a lot of people at that meeting. It was an anniversary. But I have a
poster still. But it was something different. That was ’94, ’95 -- I think ’95,
somewhere around there, ’cause I went to Mexico and then I went to Denver in
the same year twice. But it was nice because you [01:18:00] met a lot of people
that changed, really changed everything back then, especially Corky Gonzales.
He didn’t speak but he was there. I remember there were other poets and
people like that that were there at that thing.
JJ:
At the anniversary?
CV:
Right. It was the 25th anniversary.
48
�JJ:
Yeah, 25th anniversary. We had [from the crusade for Jesse’s place?].
CV:
That’s what it was. That’s what it was, yep.
JJ:
We had that. The Young Lords in Chicago had gone there in ’68 for the first time.
We took a busload in Chicago. That’s when we got involved in the (inaudible).
Actually, he helped get us involved, Corky Gonzales.
CV:
[01:19:00] Right. Yeah, you know, it was cool. Like I said, there were a lot of
important people, a lot of names that were there. And they went to a park. I
remember being in some park that they had been at a long time ago, and they
went to have some speeches there and stuff, which was cool. The Lincoln Park
Project, I remember going to DePaul University, being involved with a lot of
meetings because they had the photos and stories about the Young Lords that
they were trying to accumulate at the time. I was part of the meetings. They
made decisions with different people that I met over there in Chicago.
JJ:
So we were trying to tell the history again.
CV:
Right. (inaudible).
JJ:
And you didn’t know anything about the Young Lords but you were helping out.
CV:
Right. All that came after I got out of the rehab. [01:20:00] All I knew about you
being part of that was that you were from Chicago. I think back then, I wasn’t as
interested because of, you know, coming out of the rehab and stuff. But it was
all, like I told you, a learning process, and it helped me to be a part of, to
contribute. I met Stacy at --
JJ:
That was the (inaudible).
CV:
No, no, no, it was out that college. We were handing out coffee.
49
�JJ:
Oh, Calvin College.
CV:
Calvin College. Volunteering. We were volunteering.
JJ:
We were selling coffee for the KO Club.
CV:
Right, coffee and doughnuts.
JJ:
The KO Club was a youth program, a gang prevention program, that we set up in
the style of the Young Lords, right? But we called it the KO Club.
CV:
[01:21:00] For the kids. You did that out of the church. I remember we were part
of the church over by Vernon.
JJ:
United Methodist Church in Vernon Heights.
CV:
But there at Calvin was volunteer work.
JJ:
Yeah, they had a conference.
CV:
Right.
JJ:
And we were selling coffees to these women, and they let us do that. The United
Methodist Church let us sell coffee to their conference, and we actually made a
lot of money. Not a lot. We made about 800 dollars in a couple days.
CV:
That was pretty good.
JJ:
It went to the program, to the kids. That was that. So you helped with that.
CV:
Right, that part of it, yeah.
JJ:
You did a lot of volunteering. I can remember the sound, you were always the
one that handled that.
CV:
Right, the PA system for them to speak and to run the guitars and stuff like that,
because I was part of music --
JJ:
The Lincoln Park Camp.
50
�CV:
Right.
JJ:
So we had about three things. We had Lincoln Park [01:22:00] Camp.
CV:
The KO Club.
JJ:
We had the Latino support group.
CV:
And the KO Club.
JJ:
And the KO Club.
CV:
Three things I was part of.
JJ:
They worked together.
CV:
Right. But I went with you out of town quite a bit.
JJ:
We had a little Young Lords group here. You were part of that.
CV:
But I went out of town with you a lot of times to Chicago. We made a lot of road
trips.
JJ:
You went with me to New York too.
CV:
One trip to New York was great. That was one of your best speeches. But
you’ve gotta speak louder. (laughter) But it was good. It was one of the hottest
days of the year, kind of like it is now, and we were in Spanish Harlem.
JJ:
The 40th anniversary of the Young Lords in New York.
CV:
Right, but it was so hot that day in that church.
JJ:
We had had the 40th anniversary in Chicago, but it was New York’s turn.
CV:
But that was good.
JJ:
What’d you say? I’ve gotta speak louder?
CV:
Yeah, you’ve gotta.
JJ:
It was good, you said, still.
51
�CV:
Yeah, it was like [01:23:00] Denver. I got to meet a lot of people, and they were
from -- it’s all history.
JJ:
Yeah, we were well received in both places.
CV:
Right. But it was a guy’s daughter that was there, his granddaughter.
JJ:
Oh, and Pedro Luis Ocampo’s granddaughter.
CV:
You’ve got a picture. We got a picture with her, right? And he’s an important
person, you know, for what you guys believe in.
JJ:
(inaudible).
CV:
Yep.
JJ:
She came and said hello (inaudible).
CV:
Yeah. Getting back to where I came from and to how I got here, my thing was
the change in life for what I did. Detroit, to grow up in that era, it was a plus
because you can do more at that time. Now, you know, streets are a little
dangerous. You’ve gotta watch your back when you walk around. It’s changed.
Everybody left [01:24:00] Detroit, you know. It’s just hanging there, surviving,
one of the cities that’s survived. My son does what he does for the community,
for the kids. He’s still there. He don’t stay in Detroit, but you know, he goes
down the neighborhood every day, him and his buddies. They’re there at Clark
Park, which is good, you know.
JJ:
So what are you doing now? What type of work and stuff like that?
CV:
I’m running casino parts. Slot machine parts. Yeah, I do that, buff and polish.
JJ:
So you’re doing buffing and polishing?
52
�CV:
Yeah. Well, I polish. I polish some parts. They’ve got buffers. But I run them
parts for them, prep ’em before they’re plated. They put chrome on them.
JJ:
And you’ve been there for a while.
CV:
Yeah, I’ve been there since ’94. You know, I left to California to go help Michael
Lin, the crisis he had out there. Then I came back and they rehired me.
[01:25:00] So I kind of lost my seniority, but still about 14 years, he said, a little
more, something like that. But it’s good. It’s a small business and tight.
JJ:
You know the owners real well?
CV:
Well, I worked with his dad. He passed away and then his son took over, so it’s
good. And he said we’re about two-year contracts that we’ve got going, so as
long as it keeps me working. Knock on wood. I’m one of the ones that’s
working, making money. A lot of people I know, they ain’t doing nothing. Like I
said, I’m almost 59. I’m working as hard as I did when I started, 100 degrees in
there. It’s hot. But that’s what we do. Should’ve went to college. I would’ve
been sitting behind a desk. (laughter)
JJ:
Well, I mean, you like the job. I mean, it’s a good job.
CV:
It’s something my brother Beto taught me, yeah, how to do. You know, it’s a
trade. It’s a dying trade, but it’s a trade, yeah. You’ve gotta be good at it.
They’re not gonna hire you [01:26:00] off the streets unless you know what
you’re doing. It’s dangerous. Jerry got hit twice today with a part, just to show
you. The machines run at 1,800 RPM, like a fast wheel running at you, and if
you lose a part, it’ll hit you. You’ve gotta be able to hold onto the part, so it’s
physical. You know, a lot of pain. But you’re making money. They don’t pay by
53
�hour. They pay by how fast you go. You know, but it’s a dying thing. They don’t
do that no more. A lot of businesses don’t pay like that. They go hourly. So it’s
good.
JJ:
Any final thoughts?
CV:
I’d like to contribute I’d say to this community, which I became part of.
JJ:
Grand Rapids, you mean?
CV:
Grand Rapids, yeah. I don’t know how far, you know, [01:27:00] I’m gonna go as
far as working. Everybody else I’m around, they’re retired. All my brothers, you
know, they don’t work no more.
JJ:
(inaudible) 59.
CV:
It don’t matter. Them dudes retired when they were younger than I was, my
brothers did, you know? It depends on your job and your pension and
everything. So in your situation, where you’re at. I don’t know. But if I get out of
what I’m doing because it’s too physical, I’ll end up probably playing some music,
doing cooking, doing something I like to do, something a little more laid back.
But I’ve gotta pay the bills, you know? If I could be part of something in the
community where I can volunteer, keep me busy, I’d do that. I’d do a lot of -what you call it? -- watch my diet and stuff now because I was overweight for a
long time. I had to change my eating habits and stuff like that. [01:28:00] So I’m
on my bike a lot now, walk whenever I can, try to do physical stuff. We got a heat
wave now and I ain’t gonna do it out there in 90 degrees, you know. Yeah, it’s
just see how it goes, you know. I’m not involved with the Young Lords as much
as I was before, but I still communicate with them, you know? So, you know, it’s
54
�like you were telling me, they have that thing in Oregon, a play that’s going on, I
want to get in touch with Michael Lynn. You know, if he’s still there, and the play
is still going on at the time and I’m not doing nothing, I’d like to go out that way,
you know, be with him and to go see it, do something. Because, you know, we’re
tight. We grew up together, but we don’t see each other no more, you know?
Especially when you get our age, you lose contact with different people.
Something to do, you know? I’m not married no more, but, you know, but I’m still
around -- [01:29:00] I’m going to the family reunion Saturday. I’m the one that
runs everything. I do that for the family, you know, keep (inaudible) nephews and
nieces. You know, we used to see each other at funerals, you know, and that
was it. You know, weddings once in a while, you know, but I say, hey, once a
year, I make an effort to go to Detroit, I rent the park, and get the food together,
and try to get as many of the family together to keep it tight. Because my ma and
dad used to go to (inaudible) used to have picnics there. And that’s all the old
pictures.
JJ:
Go where?
CV:
Belle Isle, La Bella Isla. It’s right there in the Detroit River. West Grand
Boulevard starts from the Ambassador Bridge, goes in a circle, and it goes right
into Belle Isle. So with the way they made the city, but a lot of people used to
have picnics there in the old days. They had the [01:30:00] Grand Prix there a
few times, you know, but yeah. I do it because of the old days, you know, when
we used to get together with family, so I try to keep everybody, you know, tight.
Some of our family’s out of the state, but the ones that are here in the Detroit
55
�area, I try to get them, you know, together, keep the family tight. You know? I
don’t go down there as often as I used to, but one time a year, I make an effort. I
think that’s important, you know, for family to -- especially when -- it’s like, my
niece just had a, you know, baby, (inaudible). You know, and the new -- the
younger ones get to meet and read about the older ones. They have pictures,
they have the little pamphlets and stuff, you know, the stories about the family
and stuff like that, you know, so they can read. But it’s [01:31:00] pretty good.
You know, some -- a lot of people do it, they do it their own way, because, you
know, I’m making it up, at least try to, you know, do it.
JJ:
So what’s the benefit? Because I know you do a lot for the reunion, you do that
every year. What do you think is the benefit of the reunion for the family?
CV:
So that your cousins won’t forget your cousins. They know each other. They
won’t walk down the street and say, “Man, I didn’t know we were related.” And a
lot of that stuff goes around. You know, people grow up. It’s not like when we
came. I’m second generation, you know, I’m talking third, fourth generation. You
know, it’s not like before. They don’t all speak Spanish, you know? And I was
just one of the few that didn’t do that. So, you know, I think it’s important,
especially for, you know, different cultures, being Latino. United States changed,
you know? [01:32:00] A lot of Latinos in the United States now. So it’s important
to keep all that, you know --
JJ:
So how do you feel about that? Now we’re -- I didn’t ask you, did you experience
any discrimination at all when you grew up?
CV:
I get profiled once in a while, but I’m --
56
�JJ:
What (inaudible)?
CV:
That’s when they see you and they think you’re up to no good, you know? They
think just because of the way you look, you know?
JJ:
So, what do you mean? Can you explain that?
CV:
I look Indian -- Mexican.
JJ:
(inaudible) examples of profiling?
CV:
Well, I’d have to say the DNR, you know, a couple times got me.
JJ:
What is DNR? Department of Natural Resources?, something like that?
CV:
Right. They come to check your fishing license, you know? And there’s other
people that are around, and they’re all fishing around me, but they come straight
to me because I got long hair, and I look Indian, Mexican. I own a boat, you
know, but they don’t think I can own a boat. They come ask me for my
registration. I mean, they’re doing their job, I don’t give them a [01:33:00] hard
time, but I just think it’s a type of profiling that they’re doing. They’re not going up
to everybody. And I see it in this neighborhood lately, because of this heatwave
we had going around, that’s just, the cars are stopping, everybody, you know?
And I can go down a couple --
JJ:
Police are stopping everybody?
CV:
Oh yeah.
JJ:
Really?
CV:
Yeah, Saturday night. You know, but they have trouble over here, you know?
And they have -- heat brings alcohol, brings drugs, brings -- I can’t say nothing
negative about the police too, they’re doing their job. But, you know, every once
57
�in a while you’re going to have the ones that, you know, go over the edge. You
know, I see it. And then I’ve got family out there in California and Arizona and
stuff like that, and New Mexico. There’s relatives that are related to other
relatives that have experienced worse, you know?
JJ:
In New Mexico, you have family (inaudible)?
CV:
Well, my brother Jesse lives down there, you know? [01:34:00] And his son. My
sister Yola.
JJ:
Oh, you mean this stuff that’s going in on New Mexico --
CV:
In the United States.
JJ:
How do you feel about that?
CV:
Well, my thing is that I’m fortunate that I don’t live in the area, you know what I
mean? Over here, we don’t get it as bad. But you know, if they change it like
they did the law over there in Arizona, you know, that means they can stop
anybody for anything. And if you’re -- they want to check you for your papers or
whatever -- and I have what they call a green card. You know, I have mine,
everything’s legal, I’m a permanent resident of the United States. But if you don’t
have your papers, you know, they’re getting them as far as taking them to the
doctor. Their family’ll be sick, and then they’ll go ahead and they’ll get a hold of
the family, because they know they’re not from here. You now, [01:35:00] so
there are different ways that they got to do it. They’re having problems with too
many people in the country coming over.
JJ:
So you think they have to do it?
58
�CV:
Certain areas. Certain areas have to because of the overflow, especially down
there by Mexico. And the drug dealers don’t help by sending them over with all
them packs on their backs, you know? They do it -- guys got family over there.
They’re going to offer you so many thousand dollars for their family, they’re going
to do one trip for them just so they’ll have some money for their family. They’re
not going to experience that type of money nowhere else. They’ll go to jail for
that, you know? It’s rough.
JJ:
So on the one hand you’re saying they have to do it, but on the other hand, as
you were saying, that maybe they --
CV:
Both sides. Both sides gotta do it, or they -- one guy’s got to do their job
because they got to do their job to control the country, and the other guy’s got to
do it because he’s struggling. The families are starving or they don’t have
nothing, they’re in [01:36:00] poverty, so they say “I can’t get a job, I can’t get into
the United States, but this guy offers me $5,000 to bring in a pack of weed on my
back and I can make it over there through the desert?” He’ll do it. You know
what I mean? And they’re young people.
JJ:
Is it really about just drugs? Or are some people just trying to get a job, you
know? Or --
CV:
The majority of them that get caught in there, you know, are the ones that are
running the drugs, and the other --
JJ:
The ones that are being caught now?
CV:
Right, so --
59
�JJ:
They’re leaving -- you’re saying that they’re leaving the other people that are just
coming here for jobs alone?
CV:
No, the ones that are coming for jobs are getting caught too, you know, illegally.
But they got different ways they come in (inaudible), you know what I mean? It’s
just too many -- that’s a big issue, big issue, immigration, you know, with the
United States. I don’t live there, that’s what I’m saying. My brother lives down
there in New Mexico. Especially the people in Arizona.
JJ:
So [01:37:00] how do you feel about your brother?
CV:
My brother Jesse, he’s been down there most of his life, you know? He’s the one
that was in Vietnam, you know? And he believes that it’s just, you know, there’s
the poor people over there on the other side that want a better life, you know, and
they want to come over. We were lucky. Back then, they were giving the papers
out. They’re not doing that no more. That’s changed. 9/11 changed everything,
you know? Especially with immigration. I had to do -- my card is Homeland
Security.
JJ:
Your card says Homeland Security?
CV:
That’s who’s, you know, watching you. That’s who keeps track --
JJ:
On your card, it says Homeland Security?
CV:
It’s Homeland Security. It’s part of -- you know, their security to keep track of the
immigration, you know what I mean? So it’s like a little chip that’s on that card,
you know, in order to keep track of everybody. But, you know, [01:38:00] that’s
what you got to use. I haven’t been out of the country in a long time, you know?
60
�When my ma died, that’s the last time I went to Juarez. You know? It’s been a
while.
JJ:
I’m just saying, my card doesn’t say Homeland Security. It should, right?
(laughs)
CV:
Yeah, yeah.
JJ:
I’m just kidding.
CV:
It is all good, you know, to be able to grow up in the United States.
JJ:
So, because you’re growing up in the United States, but you’re still a Mexican.
You said “I’m not going to be a citizen.” So you got a little pride -- does that
mean you got a little pride for Mexico, or what?
CV:
Viva Mexico. (laughs) [Zapata?]. Yeah, Zapata.
JJ:
I mean, is that the way you feel, or am I putting words in your mouth?
CV:
No, no, no. That’s -- I was a revolutionary in the other life. (laughs)
JJ:
You’re coming down.
CV:
I’m coming down now. We’re good?
JJ:
Yeah. [01:39:00]
CV:
Okay.
JJ:
All right. You done?
CV:
Yep.
END OF VIDEO FILE
61
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/019735a8279b4e5009a4a53c57b54fef.mp4
38feefec8f79e228c996c4db87dddaa2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives.
The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
spa
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-65
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
2012-2017
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Título
Spanish language Title entry
Carlos Vasquez vídeo entrevista y biografía
Sujetos
Spanish language Subject terms
Young Lords (Organización)
Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos
Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales
Justicia social
Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago
Mexicano-Americanos--Michigan
Source
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-65_Vasquez_Carlos
Title
A name given to the resource
Carlos Vasquez video interview and transcript
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Vasquez, Carlos
Description
An account of the resource
Carlos Vazquez is from Detroit, Michigan but he was born in Mexico and his family is from Ciudad Juárez on the border with Texas. Mr. Vasquez’s family settled in Detroit in the 1940s and 1950s. Mr. Vasquez is a musician who has played in several bands. He met José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez while Mr. Jiménez was a senior counselor/supervisor for Project Rehab. Mr. Vasquez decided to join the Young Lords and has volunteered to work on all of the Lincoln Park Camps. Today Mr. Vasquez’s son and other children still recall the event and say that it had a positive effect on them.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Mexican Americans--Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Mexican Americans--Michigan
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-07-18
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/be62bc16d6bb4409aa185b2f51c60e34.pdf
e183bd8f0008d409ce34c33a518c7109
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Program
Carl Carlson
(00:44:03)
(00:08) Introduction
• Born in Bailey, Michigan in 1922.
• Attended a one-room schoolhouse through eighth grade.
• Carl worked at Continental Motors during school.
(04:48) Pearl Harbor
• He remembers being in the barn and milking cattle when hearing over the radio of
the attack.
• He enlisted in the air force [Army Air Corps] in 1942.
(05:55) Enlistment
• Enlisted with his best friend in Muskegon, Michigan.
• They were able to choose what branch of military service they wanted to join.
• They were then sent to Texas for basic training.
(06:54) Basic Training
• Attended basic training around Dallas and San Antonio, Texas.
• They received their basic training on air bases.
• Attended gunnery training in Colorado Springs, Colorado.
• Achieved the rank of a marksman while in gunnery training.
• The men had to be able to take a .45 caliber shotgun apart and put it back together
blindfolded.
(09:10) Europe
• 12th air force, 321st bomb group, 447th bomb squadron, while overseas.
• Flew in a B-26 bomber to Europe.
• He worked as a radio operator while flying.
• They flew from Louisiana to Puerto Rico, and then from Brazil to Ascension
Island, landed on the west shores of Africa, to Casablanca, and then to Italy.
• Once they reached Italy, the men lived in tents.
• The men were supposed to have served 25 missions and then they could go home,
but they were taking such heavy losses to the air force that men had to serve
around 70 missions.
• He remembers being happy to serve his country.
• The men described missions with no opposition as “milk runs.”
• Remembers having a blonde lady painted on the front of one his airplanes. He
describes these as serving a lighthearted function.
(16:41) Tough Raids
• He bombed a suspected German ammunition storage facility, which had very
heavy anti aircraft fire. While it only lasted about five minutes, it seemed to last
an hour.
�He also bombed a Romanian oil field [Ploesti]. During this mission, many planes
were lost. The enemy fire never seemed to end. They were bombing airports and
ammunition dumps.
• After one mission they found over 500 bullet holes in their plane.
(18:50) Different planes
• His first plane took a bullet that disabled the engine.
• Another plane’s hydraulic system was shot out, disabling the landing gear. The
crew was asked whether they were going to jump or fly the plane in, they flew it
in.
• Another plane lost radio contact and had a disabled fuel line.
(20:38) Style of missions
• the men did not know where they were going until they were on the plane about to
leave on the mission.
• They also flew about every other day on bombing raids.
• After fifty missions, the men were allowed a break from bombing raids.
(21:50) Dealing with the cold
• The men were outfitted in fur lined coats and pants.
• The only thing that was ever frostbitten was his ears.
• It would reach 60 degrees below zero in the plane.
• The cold never affected the gunnery in the plane.
(23:54) Dangerous missions
• The men had opposition on almost every mission.
• A piece of shrapnel just missed his head, and was lodged into the side of the
plane.
• He believes his faith helped him carry on through the war.
(25:00) Letters
- His sister kept him very informed with letters during the war.
(25:45)
• Believes that war is hell.
• He doesn’t think that any one aspect of the service is better than another.
• He was very informed of the efforts on the home front while in Europe.
• Carl was able to see Bob Hope perform while in Europe. He remembers him
traveling very close to the front lines in order to help the soldiers.
(28:14)
- Salerno, Italy was a very hard bombing mission. The enemy was very persistent.
(28:40) Length of Raids
• Most raids were 4 to 8 hours.
• This depended on fuel consumption.
• They would have to bomb the target, circle it back over to see if they hit it, and if
not bomb the area again.
(30:00) Feelings towards Italians and Germans
• Remembers the Italians being overjoyed to see the American military within their
boarders and has fond memories of them.
• Has no bitterness towards the German people, because it was not their fault, but
the Nazi military.
(32:18) Returning Home
•
�Came on the USS Mariposa.
They landed in Boston Harbor.
The first things he did when he reached home, was kiss the ground and bought
some milk.
(33:21) Pilot School
• War was still going on in the Pacific when he reached home.
• He was told that he might have to go on a Pacific tour.
• If he would go to the pilot school, he would not have to go the Pacific theatre.
• He attended the pilot school, and was a third of the way through when the war
ended.
• He took advantage of the points system and asked to be relieved of his duty after
the war had ended.
(35:30) Other memories
• Was in at a carnival in Mississippi preparing to go to Europe.
• A young group of women met up with his group.
• He determined after a few dates that they were meant to be together.
• They’ve been married for over 63 years.
• Remembers while still in Europe that, after every flight the men would be greeted
with a glass of whisky to calm your nerves.
• Became a supervisor at Continental Motors after returning home.
• He also began work in radio and television because of his radio experience during
the war.
• Continental Motors allowed him to have a leave of absence so he could take
classes at radio television school.
• He began working for Montgomery Ward in the service department.
• He then opened his own business and became successful.
•
•
•
��World War II Honoree
Page 1 of 1
Carl M. Carlson
BRANCH OF SERVICE
u.s. Army Air
Forces
HOMETOWN
Bailey, MI
ACnVlTY DURING wwn
RADIO OPERA TOR, WAIST GUNNER, B-25'S 12TH AIR FORCE. NORTH AFRICA,
EUROPEAN THEATER, 70 MISSIONS, 3 YEARS SERVICE, 1 YEAR OVERSEAS.
1942-1945.
http://www.wwiimemoriaLcom/registry1search/plaq.asp ?HonoreeID= 156357&print=y
5/31/2004
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ed gold forel~n
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�HEADQUARTERS
·
AIR
TWELFTH
FORCE
Carl M. r,arJson, Technical-Sergeant, Air Corps
321
t .
st Bomba rdmen~, Group (M)
by direction of the President, under the provisions of Army Regulation 600-45 as amended, and
pursuant to authority vested in me by the Commanding General, Mediterranean Theater of Operations.
<.titation
For meritorious achievement while participating
in aerial flight as radio gunner' of a B-25 type air
craft during an attack upon a highvmy at Va1lecorsa,
Italy, on 13 May 1944. Tecp~ical Sergeant Carlson's
. proficiency in combat reflects great credit upon him
self and the Military ~ervice of the United States.
G.' O. No.
107, 26 .Ill]Y 19[14'
JOHN K. CANNON
Major' General, USA
Commanding
�ttbe lOol\1 Sepulcbre
cernncare of
"
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'ttbe unoecetaueo, tbe IDer\? lRe"erenb arcblmanertte
'lltl]riaftos, $uar1;)ian anb Superior of tbe (Iburcb of tbe '!bolll
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-------------~---4_~-.--.~----.-.------:--------------------------
...--------------.-----------
bas bul\? "isiteb tbe <tburcb of tbe bol\? Sepulcbre of our
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is a 'UUlitness.
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tbat be will b
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star for his units parttctpattcnTn
the French camapign has been
made to T/Sgt. Carl M. Cartsorr,
son of Grant E. 'Carison.'Ue is II
I ,with the 12th'.air force headquar
tersJn Italy.
.. .
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Carlson, Carl (Interview outline and papers), 2008
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Carlson, Carl
Description
An account of the resource
Carl Carlson is a veteran of the United States Army Air Corps. He served in the European theatre during World War II. He worked as a radio operator during flight missions, particularly over Italy. He served around 70 missions, the military had to increase the number of missions each man made due to the increasing numbers of casualties. While in Europe, he was able to see Bob Hope perform. After the service, he worked in electronics sales and repairs until he retired. Newpaper clippings and award certificates appended to interview outline. [Image not available].
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Troyer, Phillip S. (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
United States. Army. Air Corps
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2008-03-22
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
CarlsonC
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/68595b91a7ee7d4f6b113783eeb233bc.jpg
fcf8552013c4c9fb075c70ac8be8f3ab
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Faces of Grand Valley
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
University Communications
Description
An account of the resource
A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1960s - 1990s
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copryight
Subject
The topic of the resource
Grand Valley State University
College administrators
College teachers
Colleges and universities -- Faculty
Michigan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
GV012-03
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
CarlsonDale
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. University Communications
Title
A name given to the resource
Carlson, Dale
Description
An account of the resource
Dale Carlson, Football Coach
Subject
The topic of the resource
Grand Valley State University – History
Football coaches
Michigan
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/07b5c8c3738ca17090e756a6b8ab87c8.mp4
8ea0714ddde12983c0aea5761a37c5ea
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/54e82e234b9012b96a716d1f6e589e60.pdf
5561f4085ae625bb997c6dd6b63fc778
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans’ History Project
John Carlson Parts 1, 3 and 4
Cold War, Vietnam War
PART 1
1 hour 10 minutes 19 seconds
(00:00:09) Early Life
-Parents came from St. Paul, Wisconsin and moved to Holland, Michigan in 1936
-He was born in 1943
-Dad worked at the Friedland Company
-Made field jackets and coats during WWII
-Spent a lot of time in St. Paul on a family farm growing up
-Attended Holland High School
-Graduated in 1961
-Wrestled and played the tuba
-Interested in history
-Wanted to study electronics after high school
-Knew that the Navy would be the best bet to get that kind of education
-Wanted to join the Navy for the sake of an education and adventurism
(00:05:39) Naval Training – Basic Training
-Reported for boot camp in September, 1961
-Finished basic training and electronics school in late October, 1962
-Trained at Great Lakes Naval Academy
-Stayed on the compound the majority of the time
-Not a lot of marching due to the base’s relatively small size
-Mostly classroom work and not a lot of physical training
-Trainers were more subdued than the stereotypical Army or Marine drill instructors
-Got to go on Christmas leave
-Transition into military living was not a difficult one
-Used to marching from being in marching band
-Expected the trainers to be tough on them
(00:08:58) Naval Training-Electronics Training
-Had to take test to qualify for electronics school
-Electronics education gave him professional expertise
-Guaranteed him a job in the field
-Spent a week assembling a radio
-Built circuits and transistors
-Trained with analog computers from WWII that did calculations for the guns
(00:12:55) Cuban Missile Crisis
-Last duty watch he heard Kennedy’s address to the Union concerning Cuba
-Went on leave and returned to find that his ship had been deployed to the blockade
-Reported to the USS Everglades
-Was supposed to be on the USS MacDonough
-Frigate
�-Went to Charleston and stayed there for two weeks
-Eventually boarded the USS MacDonough
(00:15:32) USS MacDonough-General Overview
-Spent three years all told on the USS MacDonough
-Did a few Mediterranean tours
-Worked with the Marines in Puerto Rico for training exercises in Puerto Rico
-Trained on designation and displacement equipment
-Fire control for guns and missiles
-Used the BW1 missiles-first missiles of their kind, extremely basic defensive capability
-Trained to be a range finder operator
-Outdated, but still essential piece of equipment
-Usually last station to be involved in a training exercise
-Did a lot of mess cooking for the first nine months
-Would make thirty five gallons of coffee for every meal
-Day started at 5 A.M.
(00:23:25) USS MacDonough-Making 3rd Class
-Eventually made 3rd Class
-First night as 3rd Class got to pull shore patrol at St. Croix Island, US Virgin Islands
-Station was where Alexander Hamilton learned accounting
-Put on “special weapons watch”
-Ordered not to let anyone behind locked doors: shoot on sight
-Guarded tactical nuclear weapons
-Had to go to the range for pistol training whenever they were in port
-Ordered to go through 1000 rounds of ammunition
-Not given any ear protection, still suffers hearing problems because of it
(00:28:10) Seasickness Story
-Never bothered by seasickness
-Got ordered to clean a bathroom while still on mess duty first time going to sea
-Superior officer kept showing up and berating him for not doing a good enough job
-Officer told him that he wanted to keep his mind off being sick
-Concerned about him getting violently ill
(00:30:16) First Mediterranean Deployment
-Heavy weather never really happened
-Mediterranean Sea was always considered safe, North Atlantic was considered
dangerous
-They were not authorized to stop in North Africa or Israel
-Visited Italy numerous times
-Specifically the cities of Rome and Naples
-Locals understood that Americans had money, so they were welcomed in for the commerce
-First stop was in Izmir, Turkey
-After that went to Naples, Italy
-Cannes in July
-They stopped in Valencia
-Got to see the bullfights there
-By November 1963 they had returned to the United States
�(00:34:49) JFK Assassination
-Remembers JFK being assassinated while he was pulling mess duty
-Within five minutes the entire ship knew
-Everyone that could gather around the TV did
-News was received at 10 AM
-Given “holiday routine” for reflection and to pay attention to the news
-Kennedy was somewhat revered in the Navy for having been in the Navy himself
-The assassination felt like it had been an attack on the entire Navy
(00:37:17) Commodore Inspection and Other Duties
-Was on board during an ORI (operational readiness inspection)
-Made sure that the ship looked good and was up to code
-Crew was interviewed by the commodore to see if they knew their jobs well enough
-Commodore interviewed him and found out he knew how to work the range
finder
-This impressed the commodore and “made his day”
-Conducted missile testing on the missile range
-Conducted Marine landing exercises in April (or May) in Puerto Rico
(00:40:47) 1964 World’s Fair
-In 1964 they were deployed to New York City to be tied up at Pier 90 for the World’s Fair
-Extremely close to 45th Street
-There presence was meant to be a form of exhibition
-Saw primitive IBM and GE computers
-Cultural experience
-Stayed there for a few days
-Got to see downtown New York
-Stayed out of trouble while ashore
-Usually got a few drinks in the afternoon then got dinner with shipmates
-Had to get up and do ship duties in the morning until noon or later anyway
(00:45:46) “Jumping Ship” Story
-In 1963 they were in Istanbul, Turkey and he got in an argument with the supply officer
-Technically was under the authority of the weapons officer and not the supply officer
-Weapons officer would habitually put in for Carlson’s Liberty Card
-Supply officer revoked his liberty pass
-Used liberty card from weapons officer to go ashore
-Practice of leaving the ship illegally was called “jumping ship”
-Returned to the ship successfully and no one ever knew
(00:48:24) Second Mediterranean Deployment
-In Summer, 1964 they did another tour in the Mediterranean Sea
(00:48:33) Visiting Rome on the First Deployment
-Got to go to Rome
-Saw the Villa Borghese
-Went to the Vatican
-Got blessed by the Pope
-Saw the Roman forum
(00:49:29) Back to the Second Mediterranean Deployment
-Went to Naples, Italy
�-Had a layover in Taranto, Italy and had a party on the beach there
-Went to Trieste, Italy in early October, 1964
-Docked with the USS Boston there
(00:50:45) Ship Fire
-While in Trieste he went ashore and visited the Alpine area
-Came back and saw that there had been a boiler fire
-Navy used Bunker 6 (recycled fuel) that was highly volatile and made of heavy metals
-Firefighter was burned to death
-Had to flood the compartments to put out the fire
-Ammunition compartment had been flooded
-Had to use carbon tetrachloride (highly toxic solvent) to clean the missile electronics
-Reloaded and went to Cannes, France
(00:55:16) Visiting Paris, France
-Five day, all expenses paid trip to Paris was offered for $73
-Took a train from Cannes to Marseilles
-From Marseilles took another train to Paris
-At the time the train he rode from Marseilles was the fastest in the world
-Stayed in a hotel
-Had a tour bus with a tour guide every day
-Got stuck across town one night because the subways stopped at 10:30 PM
-Got to see Napoleon’s Tomb
-Got to visit Versailles
(00:57:35) Fleet Landing Watch in Cannes
-Did fleet landing watch for one night after Paris
-Had to report in every hour
-Had a hand-crank powered generator that powered the short range radio
-Served the watch with a chief that had served in WWII
-Spent the night talking, drinking coffee, and smoking
(00:59:40) More on the Second Mediterranean Deployment
-Never ran into any major trouble at sea or ashore
-Stayed out of the bad neighborhoods
-In Naples and Palermo, Italy they were told to stay downtown and not go into
neighborhoods
-Got home by Christmas, 1964
TAPE ENDS AT 1 hour 0 minutes 45 seconds
Note: Part 2 did not record properly--will try to reshoot. Story resumes with first Vietnam
deployment in Part 3.
PART 3 & 4
1 hour 25 minutes
PART 3
(00:00:10) First Vietnam Deployment-Tonkin Gulf
�-Aboard the USS Wainwright in the Tonkin Gulf
-Went to Subic Bay, Philippines in May 1967 for refuel and supply check
-Got fresh groceries and their mail
-Went up to the Tonkin Gulf after leaving the USS Long Beach
-Got order to go “online” on June 3, 1967
-After that they were planned to go around the world and return to Charleston
-Three days later those plans were voided because of the Six Day War
-Station period (time spent in a part of the Gulf) was thirty to fifty days
-Always at least six ships in the Tonkin Gulf
-Soviet trawlers occasionally came into the Gulf
-Soviets were gathering intelligence to give to the NVA
-Could not engage the Soviet trawlers
-Their station job was to use long range radar to keep track of friendly and hostile aircraft
-Search and rescue if necessary
-Keep the aircraft carriers safe from air raids
-Also had 250,000 gallons of helicopter fuel for refueling
-Their station was thirty miles south of the city of Haiphong
-Moved in closer when bombardments part of Operation Rolling Thunder were being
conducted
-Worked with aircraft carriers during bombardments
-Protect aircraft and protect aircraft carriers
-They gathered radar information and fed it back to radar operators on board the carriers
-They stayed in the Tonkin Gulf Theatre for about three hundred days (all toll)
-Went stateside between cruises
-1967 cruise was seven and a half months
-1968 cruise was eight and a half months
(00:11:33) First Vietnam Deployment-Staying in Contact
-Got their news from Newsweek and Time
-Knew that the papers were heavily biased
-Far removed from the details of the war
-Didn’t know how it was going
-Any objective information about the war came from Navy newspapers
-There wasn’t much news about the war though
-Radar killed off long range radio contact with the outside world
-Very isolated in the Gulf
-Stayed entertained with movies and music
(00:17:17) First Vietnam Deployment-Incidents and Daily Life
-Had a helicopter crash into their superstructure
-Rotor fractured and exploded and wounded a number of sailors
-Came to rest on their flight deck
-They stripped it of essential equipment then pushed it overboard
-Other than the helicopter crash the 1967 cruise was pretty uneventful
-Kept themselves busy by reading a lot
(00:21:00) First Vietnam Deployment-Repairs and Leave
-Went to Subic Bay for repairs
-Stayed there for three weeks
�-Toured around the base, but stayed out of the town
-Went to Hong Kong
-Locals welcomed the American money
-Chinese scavenged food as their payment for painting ships
-Went to Sydney, Australia as part of leave
-Liked the people, didn’t like the warm beer
-Stayed there for four days
-Went to Wellington, New Zealand
-Went to Stokes Valley and visited a friend that lived there
-Stayed there for four days
-Went to Tahiti
-Far superior to Hawaii
(00:28:02) First Vietnam Deployment-Return Voyage and Coming Home
-After leave boarded the USS Wainwright and traveled across the South Pacific towards Canal
Zone
-Cut through the Caribbean Sea and headed up to Charleston
-Arrived in Charleston on November 13, 1967
-Most sailors saved their leave for the holidays
-Commanding officer left the sailors alone, didn’t expect much work out of them
-Went home on Christmas leave
-Got married to a girl he had been talking to prior to and during service
-Brought her to Charleston and made her an official Navy wife
(00:31:30) Second Vietnam Deployment-1968 Cruise
-After being back for four months they had to leave for an eight and a half month deployment
-Went to Pearl Harbor, then Guam for fuel
-Went to Subic Bay for fuel and orders
-Arrived in Vietnam in July 1968
-Went up to Da Nang Harbor for information exchange with the Marines
-Returned to former operating area in the Tonkin Gulf
-CBS showed up to do an interview with commanding officer
(00:36:24) Second Vietnam Deployment-First Part of Being on Station
-From August to September they were on station
-Went to Subic Bay in mid-September
-Went back to Hong Kong
-Tropical storm rolled in
-Had to leave twenty sailors on shore to escape the harbor
-British Navy brought them up to Subic Bay
-After Hong Kong went back to Subic Bay
-Saw the battleship USS New Jersey in the harbor
-Returned to their station in the Gulf (Yankee Station) and relieved the USS Sterett
-By the end of October they were back on station
-Operation Rolling Thunder ended soon thereafter
-Sent to Sasebo, Japan in November
(00:40:04) Second Vietnam Deployment-Second Part of Being on Station
-Went back to area of operations for forty five days
-Ending Operation Rolling Thunder lifted the stress on the sailors
�-Went back to Subic Bay in early January 1969
-Went back across the South Pacific after that
-Made the Mess Deck Master at Arms
-Checked the new sailors’ hands to check for hygiene
-Gave them a pep talk and a rundown of how things worked on the ship
PART 3 ENDS AT 45 minutes and 12 seconds
PART 4
(00:45:28) Second Vietnam Deployment-Incident at Okinawa
-In October 1968 they were bound for Sasebo, Japan
-Got an emergency call to go to Okinawa
-Rescued civilians that were stranded onboard the SS Lindenwood Victory without a propeller
-Towed them back to port at Sasebo
(00:48:00) Second Vietnam Deployment-Return Cruise in Pacific
-Went back to Subic Bay and then down through the Tori Straits
-Waterway between Papua New Guinea and Australia
-Thick fog
-Took an hour to pass through
-Passed behind the Great Barrier Reef
-Went back to Sydney, Australia
-Went to Auckland, New Zealand
-Went back to Tahiti for refueling
(00:50:33) Second Vietnam Deployment-Return Cruise in Caribbean
-Went to the Canal Zone
-Stopped at Rodman Naval Station in Panama for fuel and supplies
-Allowed leave for three hours to visit the clubs
-Got into the Caribbean Sea the next day
-Stopped at St. Thomas
-Captain’s order was to buy stuff for loved ones
-Also told to buy a crate of liquor from a store called Sparky’s
-Got a gallon of duty free liquor from Sparky’s
(00:53:35) Return to Charleston
-Got to Charleston in the late morning
-Had leave orders
-Wife met him in Charleston for several weeks of leave
-Won the Anchor Pool
-Lottery based on time of arrival in Charleston
-Spent that money and leave for honeymooning
-Visited wife’s family in Hamilton, Michigan
-Returned to Charleston
(00:56:47) Norfolk, Virginia and Operation Springboard
-After a few months in Charleston the USS Wainwright was invited to Norfolk for a
demonstration
-May 1969
�-Went ashore and no one from shore patrol came to pick them up
-Went to shore patrol headquarters and got things sorted out
-Stayed in the shore patrol headquarters building
-Went to Operation Springboard later in May
-Marine training exercise in Puerto Rico
(01:00:14) Warehouse Job in Charleston
-Got attached to a supply warehouse detail
-Never had to go to the ship
-Inventoried everything
-Putting new stuff on the shelves
-Pulling old stuff off of the shelves
-Put in a normal forty hour week
-Job lasted for five months
-Lived at home with his wife
-Spent Friday nights together
-Socialized with shipmates
(01:04:40) End of Enlistment and Return to Michigan
-Heard rumor that there would be a manpower reduction
-Became official shortly thereafter
-Wound up getting cut six weeks later
-Some sailors had to go through refresher training
-Others had to back to Vietnam including one sailor he knew
-January 5 1970 was his final day of duty
-Left Charleston an hour after cleaning out their apartment
-Spent a night in Gatlinburg, Tennessee
-Second day of travel they got caught in a snow storm north of South Bend, Indiana
-Followed a truck right up to Hamilton, Michigan
(01:08:25) Working after the War
-Planned to take some time off
-Wound up applying for job with the Heinz Company in Holland on January 11
-Went to work on the 14th as an electrician
-Only got nine days of break time
-Worked with the Heinz Company for seven years
-Lots of veterans from WWII and Korea worked there; he was the first Vietnam vet
-Worked at the Holland power plant after Heinz
-Worked there until his 55th birthday
-Retired after that
-Got a contractor’s license after the power plant to keep him busy
(01:10:52) Reunion Involvement-Pre Reunion Group
-Didn’t talk about wartime experience or meet with other shipmates for a long time
-Went to a picnic sponsored by the Vietnam Veterans of America
-Started getting involved after that
-Went to welcome home parade in Chicago for Vietnam veterans
-June 1986
-200,000 Vietnam veterans showed up
-Saw war buddies reunite in a hotel lounge and wanted to experience that
�(01:12:34) Reunion Involvement-Formation of the USS Wainwright Reunion Group
-Stopped at VFW Hall for a few beers one day after work
-Talked with another veteran and decided to start his own reunion group
-Started communicating with old shipmates
-Planned Washington DC reunion in July 1987
-Six of them went to DC
-Saw the Bicentennial Celebration of the Constitution
-Largest fireworks display in history
-Within two months they had eighty names
-Had first reunion in Charleston in 1989
-By that time there were three hundred names on the list
-Assembled roster of 3600 names spanning twenty six years of service
-Reunion list now has seven hundred names on it
-Went to Cincinnati in 1991
-Built an association over time
-Was able to step back and compile history
-Payoff was being able to see friends reunite
-Wanted to be able to create a lasting legacy for the sailors
(01:19:45) Reflections on Service
-Navy provided him with technical training
-Shaped him into the person that he is today
-Fulfilled his drive to go to sea
-Did an unpopular thing at an unpopular time
-Camaraderie was formed because of that
-Proud to be part of an honorable group of soldiers
-Comfortable with being a veteran
-Owns the situation, isn’t scarred by PTSD or guilt
-Wants to know the stories of other Vietnam veterans
-Wants to be in touch with what the ground troops endured
-Attends other reunions besides the USS Wainwright reunion to stay in touch with other Vietnam
vets
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Carlson, John (Interview outline and video, 1 of 4), 2011
Creator
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Carlson, John
Description
An account of the resource
John Carlson is a U.S. Navy veteran that served before and during the Vietnam War first aboard the USS MacDonough (before Vietnam) and aboard the USS Wainwright during the Vietnam War and saw action in the Gulf of Tonkin during Operation Rolling Thunder. He was born in Holland, Michigan in 1943 and enlisted in the Navy in 1961. He trained at Great Lakes Naval Academy and specialized in electronics. He traveled throughout the Mediterranean Sea aboard the USS Macdonough and the Tonkin Gulf and South Pacific aboard the USS Wainwright. He then had shore duty in Charleston, South Carolina, and left the Navy in January 1970.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Navy
Language
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2011-10-17
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CarlsonJ1325V1
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/affb9f8ba9c85f5f9aae3b6fc26e0020.mp4
02bf944d8bf5a40dc37d63b5d3aa61d2
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/77fa2baea5202c5bd03610834bc6241d.pdf
5561f4085ae625bb997c6dd6b63fc778
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans’ History Project
John Carlson Parts 1, 3 and 4
Cold War, Vietnam War
PART 1
1 hour 10 minutes 19 seconds
(00:00:09) Early Life
-Parents came from St. Paul, Wisconsin and moved to Holland, Michigan in 1936
-He was born in 1943
-Dad worked at the Friedland Company
-Made field jackets and coats during WWII
-Spent a lot of time in St. Paul on a family farm growing up
-Attended Holland High School
-Graduated in 1961
-Wrestled and played the tuba
-Interested in history
-Wanted to study electronics after high school
-Knew that the Navy would be the best bet to get that kind of education
-Wanted to join the Navy for the sake of an education and adventurism
(00:05:39) Naval Training – Basic Training
-Reported for boot camp in September, 1961
-Finished basic training and electronics school in late October, 1962
-Trained at Great Lakes Naval Academy
-Stayed on the compound the majority of the time
-Not a lot of marching due to the base’s relatively small size
-Mostly classroom work and not a lot of physical training
-Trainers were more subdued than the stereotypical Army or Marine drill instructors
-Got to go on Christmas leave
-Transition into military living was not a difficult one
-Used to marching from being in marching band
-Expected the trainers to be tough on them
(00:08:58) Naval Training-Electronics Training
-Had to take test to qualify for electronics school
-Electronics education gave him professional expertise
-Guaranteed him a job in the field
-Spent a week assembling a radio
-Built circuits and transistors
-Trained with analog computers from WWII that did calculations for the guns
(00:12:55) Cuban Missile Crisis
-Last duty watch he heard Kennedy’s address to the Union concerning Cuba
-Went on leave and returned to find that his ship had been deployed to the blockade
-Reported to the USS Everglades
-Was supposed to be on the USS MacDonough
-Frigate
�-Went to Charleston and stayed there for two weeks
-Eventually boarded the USS MacDonough
(00:15:32) USS MacDonough-General Overview
-Spent three years all told on the USS MacDonough
-Did a few Mediterranean tours
-Worked with the Marines in Puerto Rico for training exercises in Puerto Rico
-Trained on designation and displacement equipment
-Fire control for guns and missiles
-Used the BW1 missiles-first missiles of their kind, extremely basic defensive capability
-Trained to be a range finder operator
-Outdated, but still essential piece of equipment
-Usually last station to be involved in a training exercise
-Did a lot of mess cooking for the first nine months
-Would make thirty five gallons of coffee for every meal
-Day started at 5 A.M.
(00:23:25) USS MacDonough-Making 3rd Class
-Eventually made 3rd Class
-First night as 3rd Class got to pull shore patrol at St. Croix Island, US Virgin Islands
-Station was where Alexander Hamilton learned accounting
-Put on “special weapons watch”
-Ordered not to let anyone behind locked doors: shoot on sight
-Guarded tactical nuclear weapons
-Had to go to the range for pistol training whenever they were in port
-Ordered to go through 1000 rounds of ammunition
-Not given any ear protection, still suffers hearing problems because of it
(00:28:10) Seasickness Story
-Never bothered by seasickness
-Got ordered to clean a bathroom while still on mess duty first time going to sea
-Superior officer kept showing up and berating him for not doing a good enough job
-Officer told him that he wanted to keep his mind off being sick
-Concerned about him getting violently ill
(00:30:16) First Mediterranean Deployment
-Heavy weather never really happened
-Mediterranean Sea was always considered safe, North Atlantic was considered
dangerous
-They were not authorized to stop in North Africa or Israel
-Visited Italy numerous times
-Specifically the cities of Rome and Naples
-Locals understood that Americans had money, so they were welcomed in for the commerce
-First stop was in Izmir, Turkey
-After that went to Naples, Italy
-Cannes in July
-They stopped in Valencia
-Got to see the bullfights there
-By November 1963 they had returned to the United States
�(00:34:49) JFK Assassination
-Remembers JFK being assassinated while he was pulling mess duty
-Within five minutes the entire ship knew
-Everyone that could gather around the TV did
-News was received at 10 AM
-Given “holiday routine” for reflection and to pay attention to the news
-Kennedy was somewhat revered in the Navy for having been in the Navy himself
-The assassination felt like it had been an attack on the entire Navy
(00:37:17) Commodore Inspection and Other Duties
-Was on board during an ORI (operational readiness inspection)
-Made sure that the ship looked good and was up to code
-Crew was interviewed by the commodore to see if they knew their jobs well enough
-Commodore interviewed him and found out he knew how to work the range
finder
-This impressed the commodore and “made his day”
-Conducted missile testing on the missile range
-Conducted Marine landing exercises in April (or May) in Puerto Rico
(00:40:47) 1964 World’s Fair
-In 1964 they were deployed to New York City to be tied up at Pier 90 for the World’s Fair
-Extremely close to 45th Street
-There presence was meant to be a form of exhibition
-Saw primitive IBM and GE computers
-Cultural experience
-Stayed there for a few days
-Got to see downtown New York
-Stayed out of trouble while ashore
-Usually got a few drinks in the afternoon then got dinner with shipmates
-Had to get up and do ship duties in the morning until noon or later anyway
(00:45:46) “Jumping Ship” Story
-In 1963 they were in Istanbul, Turkey and he got in an argument with the supply officer
-Technically was under the authority of the weapons officer and not the supply officer
-Weapons officer would habitually put in for Carlson’s Liberty Card
-Supply officer revoked his liberty pass
-Used liberty card from weapons officer to go ashore
-Practice of leaving the ship illegally was called “jumping ship”
-Returned to the ship successfully and no one ever knew
(00:48:24) Second Mediterranean Deployment
-In Summer, 1964 they did another tour in the Mediterranean Sea
(00:48:33) Visiting Rome on the First Deployment
-Got to go to Rome
-Saw the Villa Borghese
-Went to the Vatican
-Got blessed by the Pope
-Saw the Roman forum
(00:49:29) Back to the Second Mediterranean Deployment
-Went to Naples, Italy
�-Had a layover in Taranto, Italy and had a party on the beach there
-Went to Trieste, Italy in early October, 1964
-Docked with the USS Boston there
(00:50:45) Ship Fire
-While in Trieste he went ashore and visited the Alpine area
-Came back and saw that there had been a boiler fire
-Navy used Bunker 6 (recycled fuel) that was highly volatile and made of heavy metals
-Firefighter was burned to death
-Had to flood the compartments to put out the fire
-Ammunition compartment had been flooded
-Had to use carbon tetrachloride (highly toxic solvent) to clean the missile electronics
-Reloaded and went to Cannes, France
(00:55:16) Visiting Paris, France
-Five day, all expenses paid trip to Paris was offered for $73
-Took a train from Cannes to Marseilles
-From Marseilles took another train to Paris
-At the time the train he rode from Marseilles was the fastest in the world
-Stayed in a hotel
-Had a tour bus with a tour guide every day
-Got stuck across town one night because the subways stopped at 10:30 PM
-Got to see Napoleon’s Tomb
-Got to visit Versailles
(00:57:35) Fleet Landing Watch in Cannes
-Did fleet landing watch for one night after Paris
-Had to report in every hour
-Had a hand-crank powered generator that powered the short range radio
-Served the watch with a chief that had served in WWII
-Spent the night talking, drinking coffee, and smoking
(00:59:40) More on the Second Mediterranean Deployment
-Never ran into any major trouble at sea or ashore
-Stayed out of the bad neighborhoods
-In Naples and Palermo, Italy they were told to stay downtown and not go into
neighborhoods
-Got home by Christmas, 1964
TAPE ENDS AT 1 hour 0 minutes 45 seconds
Note: Part 2 did not record properly--will try to reshoot. Story resumes with first Vietnam
deployment in Part 3.
PART 3 & 4
1 hour 25 minutes
PART 3
(00:00:10) First Vietnam Deployment-Tonkin Gulf
�-Aboard the USS Wainwright in the Tonkin Gulf
-Went to Subic Bay, Philippines in May 1967 for refuel and supply check
-Got fresh groceries and their mail
-Went up to the Tonkin Gulf after leaving the USS Long Beach
-Got order to go “online” on June 3, 1967
-After that they were planned to go around the world and return to Charleston
-Three days later those plans were voided because of the Six Day War
-Station period (time spent in a part of the Gulf) was thirty to fifty days
-Always at least six ships in the Tonkin Gulf
-Soviet trawlers occasionally came into the Gulf
-Soviets were gathering intelligence to give to the NVA
-Could not engage the Soviet trawlers
-Their station job was to use long range radar to keep track of friendly and hostile aircraft
-Search and rescue if necessary
-Keep the aircraft carriers safe from air raids
-Also had 250,000 gallons of helicopter fuel for refueling
-Their station was thirty miles south of the city of Haiphong
-Moved in closer when bombardments part of Operation Rolling Thunder were being
conducted
-Worked with aircraft carriers during bombardments
-Protect aircraft and protect aircraft carriers
-They gathered radar information and fed it back to radar operators on board the carriers
-They stayed in the Tonkin Gulf Theatre for about three hundred days (all toll)
-Went stateside between cruises
-1967 cruise was seven and a half months
-1968 cruise was eight and a half months
(00:11:33) First Vietnam Deployment-Staying in Contact
-Got their news from Newsweek and Time
-Knew that the papers were heavily biased
-Far removed from the details of the war
-Didn’t know how it was going
-Any objective information about the war came from Navy newspapers
-There wasn’t much news about the war though
-Radar killed off long range radio contact with the outside world
-Very isolated in the Gulf
-Stayed entertained with movies and music
(00:17:17) First Vietnam Deployment-Incidents and Daily Life
-Had a helicopter crash into their superstructure
-Rotor fractured and exploded and wounded a number of sailors
-Came to rest on their flight deck
-They stripped it of essential equipment then pushed it overboard
-Other than the helicopter crash the 1967 cruise was pretty uneventful
-Kept themselves busy by reading a lot
(00:21:00) First Vietnam Deployment-Repairs and Leave
-Went to Subic Bay for repairs
-Stayed there for three weeks
�-Toured around the base, but stayed out of the town
-Went to Hong Kong
-Locals welcomed the American money
-Chinese scavenged food as their payment for painting ships
-Went to Sydney, Australia as part of leave
-Liked the people, didn’t like the warm beer
-Stayed there for four days
-Went to Wellington, New Zealand
-Went to Stokes Valley and visited a friend that lived there
-Stayed there for four days
-Went to Tahiti
-Far superior to Hawaii
(00:28:02) First Vietnam Deployment-Return Voyage and Coming Home
-After leave boarded the USS Wainwright and traveled across the South Pacific towards Canal
Zone
-Cut through the Caribbean Sea and headed up to Charleston
-Arrived in Charleston on November 13, 1967
-Most sailors saved their leave for the holidays
-Commanding officer left the sailors alone, didn’t expect much work out of them
-Went home on Christmas leave
-Got married to a girl he had been talking to prior to and during service
-Brought her to Charleston and made her an official Navy wife
(00:31:30) Second Vietnam Deployment-1968 Cruise
-After being back for four months they had to leave for an eight and a half month deployment
-Went to Pearl Harbor, then Guam for fuel
-Went to Subic Bay for fuel and orders
-Arrived in Vietnam in July 1968
-Went up to Da Nang Harbor for information exchange with the Marines
-Returned to former operating area in the Tonkin Gulf
-CBS showed up to do an interview with commanding officer
(00:36:24) Second Vietnam Deployment-First Part of Being on Station
-From August to September they were on station
-Went to Subic Bay in mid-September
-Went back to Hong Kong
-Tropical storm rolled in
-Had to leave twenty sailors on shore to escape the harbor
-British Navy brought them up to Subic Bay
-After Hong Kong went back to Subic Bay
-Saw the battleship USS New Jersey in the harbor
-Returned to their station in the Gulf (Yankee Station) and relieved the USS Sterett
-By the end of October they were back on station
-Operation Rolling Thunder ended soon thereafter
-Sent to Sasebo, Japan in November
(00:40:04) Second Vietnam Deployment-Second Part of Being on Station
-Went back to area of operations for forty five days
-Ending Operation Rolling Thunder lifted the stress on the sailors
�-Went back to Subic Bay in early January 1969
-Went back across the South Pacific after that
-Made the Mess Deck Master at Arms
-Checked the new sailors’ hands to check for hygiene
-Gave them a pep talk and a rundown of how things worked on the ship
PART 3 ENDS AT 45 minutes and 12 seconds
PART 4
(00:45:28) Second Vietnam Deployment-Incident at Okinawa
-In October 1968 they were bound for Sasebo, Japan
-Got an emergency call to go to Okinawa
-Rescued civilians that were stranded onboard the SS Lindenwood Victory without a propeller
-Towed them back to port at Sasebo
(00:48:00) Second Vietnam Deployment-Return Cruise in Pacific
-Went back to Subic Bay and then down through the Tori Straits
-Waterway between Papua New Guinea and Australia
-Thick fog
-Took an hour to pass through
-Passed behind the Great Barrier Reef
-Went back to Sydney, Australia
-Went to Auckland, New Zealand
-Went back to Tahiti for refueling
(00:50:33) Second Vietnam Deployment-Return Cruise in Caribbean
-Went to the Canal Zone
-Stopped at Rodman Naval Station in Panama for fuel and supplies
-Allowed leave for three hours to visit the clubs
-Got into the Caribbean Sea the next day
-Stopped at St. Thomas
-Captain’s order was to buy stuff for loved ones
-Also told to buy a crate of liquor from a store called Sparky’s
-Got a gallon of duty free liquor from Sparky’s
(00:53:35) Return to Charleston
-Got to Charleston in the late morning
-Had leave orders
-Wife met him in Charleston for several weeks of leave
-Won the Anchor Pool
-Lottery based on time of arrival in Charleston
-Spent that money and leave for honeymooning
-Visited wife’s family in Hamilton, Michigan
-Returned to Charleston
(00:56:47) Norfolk, Virginia and Operation Springboard
-After a few months in Charleston the USS Wainwright was invited to Norfolk for a
demonstration
-May 1969
�-Went ashore and no one from shore patrol came to pick them up
-Went to shore patrol headquarters and got things sorted out
-Stayed in the shore patrol headquarters building
-Went to Operation Springboard later in May
-Marine training exercise in Puerto Rico
(01:00:14) Warehouse Job in Charleston
-Got attached to a supply warehouse detail
-Never had to go to the ship
-Inventoried everything
-Putting new stuff on the shelves
-Pulling old stuff off of the shelves
-Put in a normal forty hour week
-Job lasted for five months
-Lived at home with his wife
-Spent Friday nights together
-Socialized with shipmates
(01:04:40) End of Enlistment and Return to Michigan
-Heard rumor that there would be a manpower reduction
-Became official shortly thereafter
-Wound up getting cut six weeks later
-Some sailors had to go through refresher training
-Others had to back to Vietnam including one sailor he knew
-January 5 1970 was his final day of duty
-Left Charleston an hour after cleaning out their apartment
-Spent a night in Gatlinburg, Tennessee
-Second day of travel they got caught in a snow storm north of South Bend, Indiana
-Followed a truck right up to Hamilton, Michigan
(01:08:25) Working after the War
-Planned to take some time off
-Wound up applying for job with the Heinz Company in Holland on January 11
-Went to work on the 14th as an electrician
-Only got nine days of break time
-Worked with the Heinz Company for seven years
-Lots of veterans from WWII and Korea worked there; he was the first Vietnam vet
-Worked at the Holland power plant after Heinz
-Worked there until his 55th birthday
-Retired after that
-Got a contractor’s license after the power plant to keep him busy
(01:10:52) Reunion Involvement-Pre Reunion Group
-Didn’t talk about wartime experience or meet with other shipmates for a long time
-Went to a picnic sponsored by the Vietnam Veterans of America
-Started getting involved after that
-Went to welcome home parade in Chicago for Vietnam veterans
-June 1986
-200,000 Vietnam veterans showed up
-Saw war buddies reunite in a hotel lounge and wanted to experience that
�(01:12:34) Reunion Involvement-Formation of the USS Wainwright Reunion Group
-Stopped at VFW Hall for a few beers one day after work
-Talked with another veteran and decided to start his own reunion group
-Started communicating with old shipmates
-Planned Washington DC reunion in July 1987
-Six of them went to DC
-Saw the Bicentennial Celebration of the Constitution
-Largest fireworks display in history
-Within two months they had eighty names
-Had first reunion in Charleston in 1989
-By that time there were three hundred names on the list
-Assembled roster of 3600 names spanning twenty six years of service
-Reunion list now has seven hundred names on it
-Went to Cincinnati in 1991
-Built an association over time
-Was able to step back and compile history
-Payoff was being able to see friends reunite
-Wanted to be able to create a lasting legacy for the sailors
(01:19:45) Reflections on Service
-Navy provided him with technical training
-Shaped him into the person that he is today
-Fulfilled his drive to go to sea
-Did an unpopular thing at an unpopular time
-Camaraderie was formed because of that
-Proud to be part of an honorable group of soldiers
-Comfortable with being a veteran
-Owns the situation, isn’t scarred by PTSD or guilt
-Wants to know the stories of other Vietnam veterans
-Wants to be in touch with what the ground troops endured
-Attends other reunions besides the USS Wainwright reunion to stay in touch with other Vietnam
vets
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Carlson, John (Interview outline and video, 3 and 4 of 4), 2011
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Carlson, John
Description
An account of the resource
John Carlson is a U.S. Navy veteran that served before and during the Vietnam War first aboard the USS MacDonough (before Vietnam) and aboard the USS Wainwright during the Vietnam War and saw action in the Gulf of Tonkin during Operation Rolling Thunder. He was born in Holland, Michigan in 1943 and enlisted in the Navy in 1961. He trained at Great Lakes Naval Academy and specialized in electronics. He traveled throughout the Mediterranean Sea aboard the USS MacDonough and the Tonkin Gulf and South Pacific aboard the USS Wainwright. He then had shore duty in Charleston, South Carolina, and left the Navy in January 1970.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Navy
Language
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eng
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2011-10-17
Identifier
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CarlsonJ1325V3
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f1a75d493f392e344b9d267583bec24a.m4v
5cf0ce5f0cdfd87f0aa2d2c12dbf539a
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bff30363b8077ffbda9ba77dc7aa266d.pdf
039fb147e26045410937bde3d9b4943e
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans' History Project
Oscar Carlson
World War II
1 hour 26 minutes 22 seconds
(00:00:44) Start of the War & Enlisting
-When Pearl Harbor was attacked on December 7, 1941 he realized the severity of the
attack
-Knew that there would be a need for soldiers
-Decided to enlist in the Army
-Didn't want to fight, but knew that he had to
-If you enlisted there was a chance you'd get a better job
-Enlisted on December 8, 1941
-A week later he got processed in Grand Rapids, Michigan
-Sent by train to Fort Custer, Michigan for further processing
-Stopped at every town between Grand Rapids and Fort Custer
-Didn't know if he was supposed to be scared, or not
-Arrived at Fort Custer around 8 PM
-Made a mistake in the mess line and got yelled at
(00:04:09) Early Life
-Grew up in Northport, Michigan
-Town located in northern Michigan near Traverse City
-Grew up on a farm outside of Northport
-Stayed in school through the eighth grade
-Stayed in Michigan until he enlisted at the age of twenty years old
-Means that he was born in either 1920, or 1921
-Worked for a farmer in the Grand Rapids area for a year and a half
-Then got a job in the city of Grand Rapids
-Had been working there for less than a year when Pearl Harbor happened
(00:05:33) Basic Training
-After a day and a half at Fort Custer he went to Camp Joseph T. Robinson, Arkansas
-Drill sergeant told the recruits they didn't have to work or follow orders
-If they chose to do that there would be dire consequences
-Learned how to live outside
-Went on marches
-Spent most of 1942 at Camp Robinson before moving on
-Moved on to Hattiesburg, Mississippi after basic training
-Most likely Camp Shelby
-Linked up with National Guard troops from Maine at Camp Robinson
-He was in A Company then got reassigned to M Company
-Stayed in M Company for duration of the war
-Marched every day
-Had to learn how to march
-He had trouble with it and got yelled at and made fun of it over it
�-Learned how to use a rifle
-Goal of basic training was to get prepared for combat
-Three regiments were formed at Camp Robinson
-The 103rd Infantry Regiment, 169th Infantry Regiment, and 172nd Infantry
Regiment
(00:10:55) Deployment to the Pacific Theatre
-Sent from San Francisco to New Zealand
-43rd Infantry Division left the U.S. in October 1942
-Voyage from America to New Zealand was boring and he didn't know their
destination
-Remembers that New Zealand was a beautiful place
-Stayed there for two weeks and got to explore the island
-One regiment (the 172nd) sailed to the New Hebrides
-Captain sailed into the harbor without guidance; the ship hit a mine and sank
-Two men died, but the rest of the men got off the ship
-They lost all of their equipment though
-Sent over to New Caledonia to wait until they got equipment
-This would have been in November 1942
-During that time some of the worst fighting happened on Guadalcanal
-Had the 172nd not lost the equipment he would have fought on
Guadalcanal
-There was only one settlement on New Caledonia
-It was an undeveloped island
-Most of the people on New Caledonia didn't speak English
-Had to regularly wear mosquito netting and sleep under it too
-Spent nine months there
-Sailed from New Caledonia to Guadalcanal
-The day they landed there Guadalcanal was declared secure
-This would have been on February 17, 1943
(00:15:45) Capture of the Russell Islands
-Went to the Russel Islands on February 21, 1943
Note: The following events most likely happened on Vangunu, Rendova and New
Georgia. The Russell Islands were taken without opposition and the Japanese
airstrip was on New Georgia
-Goal was to assemble there and establish an airstrip for bombers
-Japanese had a small airstrip
-They routed the Japanese and two days later brought in equipment to build the
airstrip
-The island they were on was a coral island; the coral was excellent building
material
-Constantly dealt with harassment from Japanese troops
-Japanese picked off soldiers at random
-Officers removed their insignia to be less identifiable
-He worked as a mail runner on the Russell Islands
-He took part in the invasion of the Russell Islands
-Remembers stiff resistance from the Japanese
�(00:21:02) Liberation of Vangunu and Rendova
-Moved on to Vangunu and encountered resistance there in June 1943
-Missed the landing zone
-Ship hit a sandbar and they stepped off into chest high water
-Lost their radio
-Natives helped them without hesitation
-Showed the GIs trails and how to find the Japanese
-They had to cross a mountain stream
-Native man tied a vine between the two shores to help the Americans
-Found a path that led to a small naval outpost held by the Japanese
-Officers decided to press the attack
-Got down there and thought it was abandoned
-Japanese started sniping at them
-He was part of a group of men sent out to scout the area
-Three men got shot instantly, two of them were brothers
-Ordered to fall back and Oscar fell into a sinkhole
-Crawled out, but his rifle was useless
-He returned to camp and the sun was setting
-Ordered to dig in for the night
-Japanese were in the trees firing at them
-A small Japanese ship arrived at night
-Heavy fighting ensued
-They had Marines attached to them as support units
-Left the naval outpost and moved deeper into the island, running into knee deep mud
-Had to use makeshift stretchers to carry the wounded
-Japanese killed the men in the stretchers, but let the able-bodied men pass
-Tremendously demoralizing
-Stayed at their base camp for a few days
-A ship was sent to collect the troops and move them to Rendova
-They had no radar at Rendova which allowed Japanese aircraft to attack without warning
-A bomb was dropped so close to his landing craft that he could have touched it
-Neither operation made the news
-They stayed at Rendova for a while
-Once those islands were secured he ferried mail between the islands
-They fought the Japanese while heavy equipment worked behind them to build an
airstrip
-Most likely on New Georgia
(00:37:07) Regrouping and R&R in New Zealand
-Sent back to New Zealand for R&R and to rebuild their units
-This would have been in fall 1943
-They had lost half of their men
-Killed, wounded, or evacuated due to combat stress
-They stayed on New Zealand for about nine months
-Could go into town to get food whenever they wanted
-He weighed only 100 pounds when they got New Zealand, and gained 60
pounds
�(00:38:47) Stationed in New Guinea Pt. 1
-In July 1944 the 43rd was sent to Aitape, New Guinea
-They set up camp there and sent out patrols to keep the area secure
-Dengue fever was a problem
-Skin problems were prevalent
-Had to bathe in the ocean to deal with the sores
-Still has scars
-The fighting there was minimal
-Dealing with Japanese remnants and the few reinforcments they received
-By August 25, 1944 the last Japanese forces had been removed from the area
-Stayed in New Guinea until moving to the Philippines
(00:41:49) Liberation of the Philippines Pt. 1
-Once the troops were assembled they moved up to the Philippines in early 1945
-He helped unload troops and supplies at Lingayen Gulf
-There were a lot of Japanese in the Philippines
-The objective was to push to a highway that connected the Lingayen Gulf area to Manila
-Held off from further advances for two weeks
-Fears that the Japanese would kill the American prisoners they still had
-Once that fear was negated they continued their advance toward
Manila
-Captured Manila in February and March 1945, but did not go to Corregidor
-He helped retake the water supply for Manila in May 1945
-Most likely Ipo Dam northeast of Manila
-Slept during the day and moved at night to avoid detection by the Japanese
(00:47:45) End of the War, Coming Home, and End of Service Pt. 1
-After the Philippines were secured they prepared for the invasion of Japan
-In Manila when the first atomic bomb was dropped on Japan (August 6, 1945)
-Sailed from the Philippines to Australia
-Picking up war-brides and children
-Women that had married U.S. troops and fathered their children
-Sailed aboard a luxury liner and got served by Merchant Marines
-After the atomic bombs were dropped he knew the war would end
-He had malaria at the end of the war and received treatment for it
-Still can't explain what he felt when the war ended and the invasion of Japan was
cancelled
(00:52:54) Liberation of the Philippines Pt. 2
-Advancing in the Philippines came pretty easy
-Knew not to alert the Japanese to their presence
-He was in Manila when General MacArthur returned
-Entered with a huge motorcade
-Oscar had a pretty high opinion of him
-Admired what he was able to do with limited troops and resources
-When he landed at the Philippines he saw only one Japanese plane
-At Clark Field they discovered dozens of Japanese planes
-Learned that Japan ran out of fuel
-They destroyed the Japanese planes by throwing grenades into the
�cockpits
(00:57:53) Stationed in New Guinea Pt. 2
-Remembers the heat and humidity in New Guinea
-Most men that contracted Dengue fever succumbed to it
-Constantly being wet caused skin rot
-They were able to cool off at night and sleep on cots
-All told, spent a year in New Guinea
(00:59:55) Reflections on Service
-Memories of the war are still vivid seventy years later
-He kept in touch with his old sergeant until the sergeant died
-Only stayed in touch with him
-He is glad that he went and was able to come back alive and intact
-Felt an obligation to fight and stop the fascists
(01:02:13) End of the War, Coming Home, and End of Service Pt. 2
-Whenever they sailed during the war there were light restrictions
-There was a "smoking lamp" and when it was lit there were no light restrictions
-When it was off you couldn't even light a cigarette for fear of being seen
by subs
-On the voyage to Australia the smoking lamp never turned off
-Symbolic that the war was truly over
-The men talked about going home and were eager to go back to civilian life
-Men were humble and grateful to be alive
-Sailed home board the SS Lurline
-Took nineteen days to get back to the United States
-Sailed up the West Coast and landed at San Francisco
-Saw the Hollywood sign when they passed Los Angeles
-The ship was listing because so many men were on the side looking at the shore
-He boarded a train in San Francisco and fell asleep as soon as he sat down
-Went to Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois and got thirty days of leave
-Stayed with his brother
-His sister and fiancee were making wedding plans
-After he returned to Great Lakes Naval Station he got discharged
-Went home and got married a day or two later
-Based on outside sources: married on October 27, 1945
-Means that he got back to the U.S. in September 1945
(01:07:25) Life after the War
-Worked for Kelvinator in Grand Rapids
-Worked there for a year, or a year and a half, until he got laid off
-He rented a home in Grand Rapids and his landlord was a painter
-Worked for him for a while
-Got hired at The Globe in Grand Rapids
-Got a job at the Post Office
-Started there in the late 1940s
-It became his career
-Worked as a clerk
-Meant he had to learn the mail routes
�-He worked for the Post Office until he was sixty (1980/1981)
-Time in the Army counted toward his retirement
-He worked for a church for ten years
-Built a house that he still lives in as of 2015
-Had two sons and a daughter
Interview ends at 01:14:42
(01:15:15) Photographs and Artifacts
-43rd Infantry Division cap with campaign ribbons
-Wedding photograph
-Photo of Oscar in the Army wearing dress shirt and overseas
-Headshot of Oscar while in the Army, wearing his overseas cap with regimental pin
-Headshot of Oscar while in the Army
-Photo of Oscar and his sister Ethel while he was home on leave
-Photograph of Oscar in Army dress shirt
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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RHC-27
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-27_CarlsonO1783V
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Carlson, Oscar (Interview outline and video), 2015
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2015-05-12
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Oscar Carlson was born in 1920, or 1921 and raised in Northport, Michigan. On December 8, 1941 he enlisted in the Army in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He was processed at Fort Custer, Michigan and was sent to Camp Joseph. T. Robinson, Arkansas for basic training. While at Camp Robinson he was assigned to the 43rd Infantry Division. He trained in the United States for the majority of 1942 in Arkansas and Mississippi before deploying to the Pacific Theatre in October 1942. He was stationed at New Zealand before taking part in the occupation of the Russell Islands in February 1943
the liberation of Vangunu, Rendova, and New Georgia through the summer of 1943
securing Aitape, New Guinea in July and August 1944
and the liberation of Luzon, Philippines in January-August 1945. After the war ended he returned to the United States and landed at San Francisco. He was sent to Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois and was discharged there in October 1945.
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Carlson, Oscar
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Childress, Jim (Interviewer)
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Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
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Text
Moving Image
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
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video/x-m4v
application/pdf
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d4e19f6c590f7e0a96361e5701d54ee5.jpg
63fd5a4e143a42ffb2b116cd7935e471
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Faces of Grand Valley
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Grand Valley State University
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University Communications
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A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community.
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1960s - 1990s
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GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files
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In Copryight
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Grand Valley State University
College administrators
College teachers
Colleges and universities -- Faculty
Michigan
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Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives
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GV012-03
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image/jpeg
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Image
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eng
Still Image
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CarlsonRudolph_Photo01
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Grand Valley State University. University Communications
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Carlson, Rudolph
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Rudolph Carlson, Advertising and Public Relations
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Grand Valley State University – History
College teachers
Universities and colleges – Faculty
Michigan
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University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03)
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Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives
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In Copyright
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Image
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image/jpeg
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d11e96ef9135e6757cac6bfbf847f8a7.jpg
d1c411c1d117bc82711e74f65003bc40
Dublin Core
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Title
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Faces of Grand Valley
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Grand Valley State University
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University Communications
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A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community.
Date
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1960s - 1990s
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GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files
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In Copryight
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Grand Valley State University
College administrators
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Colleges and universities -- Faculty
Michigan
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Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives
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GV012-03
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image/jpeg
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Image
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eng
Still Image
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CarlsonRudolph_Photo02
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Grand Valley State University. University Communications
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Carlson, Rudolph
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Rudolph Carlson, Advertising and Public Relations
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Grand Valley State University – History
College teachers
Universities and colleges – Faculty
Michigan
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University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03)
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Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives
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In Copyright
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Image
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image/jpeg
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/86d1bef44dc2920baad2250503c9bac3.jpg
fc92b5cda87ab07c74b7c21cca88c6f2
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GVSU Concert & Event Posters
Subject
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Posters
Events
Michigan
Universities & colleges--Michigan
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Division of Student Services provides programs, services, and environments that enhance the personal, social, and intellectual growth of undergraduate and graduate students at the University. Events including concerts were managed by the office of Student Life. Posters for music, speakers, poetry readings and other campuswide events are included.
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Grand Valley State University. Division of Student Services
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/106">Student Services concerts, events, and posters files, (GV028-06)</a>
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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2017-07-17
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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image/jpg
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eng
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Image
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GV028-06
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1963 – 1981
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GV028-06_CarlySimon
Title
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Carly Simon, January 22, 1972
Subject
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Grand Valley State University
Grand Valley State College
Michigan
Allendale (Mich.)
Universities & colleges--Michigan
Events
Posters
Description
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Carly Simon with Jim Ryan, Paul Glanz, andy Newmark, Mickey Newbury, and Jonathan Round, in the GVSC Fieldhouse, sponsored with WZZM-FM. January 22, 1972
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image/jpeg
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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1972
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/106">Student Services concerts, events, and posters files, (GV028-06)</a>
Type
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Image
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cefbedaec8c20f4a1634c00d44aab4fa.pdf
8d236e146bb661f3492d87eb64aabbc9
PDF Text
Text
Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: Carmelo Romero
Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 8/23/2012
Biography and Description
Carmelo Romero grew up in Lakeview and today lives in Logan Square. His family also lived in the Lincoln
Park neighborhood and knew of the Young Lords. But it was not until the Young Lords set up their
neighborhood storefront office that Mr. Romero took notice of them. He holds a Master Degree and
appreciates the contributions to civil and human rights of Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. and Malcom X,
and loves to study African history, especially the Moors who took over Spain for 800 years and
influenced Latino nations in many ways. Mr. Romero explains how the Moors even contributed to jibaro
music in their sounds and song chants. Maria Romero, his sister, remains a full-fledged member of the
Young Lords in her heart. In the 1970s she ran the office at Wilton and Grace Streets. Mr. Romero would
often stop by and, as the Jiménez for Alderman Campaign took hold, he volunteered to help. But he was
more involved with school then. Today, Mr. Romero is a promising writer and has published several
short stories. He also works for a housing development organization that is providing affordable housing
in Logan Square.
�Transcript
JOSE JIMENEZ:
Okay, Carmelo, if you can give me -- and we’re rolling now. There’s
no trick questions or nothing. Just relax. It’s not a (inaudible). But if you can
give me your full name and your date of birth and where you were born.
CARMELO ROMERO:
Okay. Full name, Carmelo Romero. I was born in Río
Piedras, Puerto Rico, and I was born March 5, 1954.
JJ:
Okay, Río Piedras. And your parents, who were they?
CR:
Well, Ana Maria Santiago Coto and Cayetamo Romero.
JJ:
Cayetamo Romero. Okay, what about your brothers and sisters?
CR:
Brothers, George, Julie -- I think her full name is Julietta -- and Yolanda
[00:01:00] and Maria, Cruz Maria.
JJ:
Okay. And what type of work did your parents do?
CR:
Well, my mom basically took care of us and nannied children, you know? And
my father worked at Northwestern Hospital in the maintenance department, and
then he also had his own business. He was a trained masseuse.
JJ:
He was a trained masseuse?
CR:
Yeah, and he also through reading and everything like that trained himself in
Eastern arts of healing. So he had often two or three botánicas.
JJ:
Okay. Oh, botánicas, huh?
CR:
Right. He also was, like many people are just natural herbalists. My sister Maria
is like that. And that’s what he was, so [00:02:00] he knew plants by the feel. He
knew what could heal and what could hurt and all that. So he was able to put
1
�things together like that and treat people, help people. Basically, you know
what’s incredible about it is that I could put a store like that over on Damen and
North Avenue, and man, I’m making money because it’s like everybody that
comes in there, they have the money to spend (laughs) on these types of selfcures.
JJ:
And they’re into that, I mean.
CR:
Oh, yeah, that’s become --
JJ:
-- part of the culture.
CR:
Yeah. Yeah, and that’s something that, again, reaches back to --
JJ:
Actually, my mother’s into that. I mean, she didn’t have a botánica, but she’s into
spiritualism.
CR:
Yeah, and so many people --
JJ:
And (inaudible) a little bit. She says she [00:03:00] doesn’t, but she (inaudible).
CR:
Well, some of it is natural.
JJ:
But he had businesses. He had a couple businesses.
CR:
Yeah. And his whole thing was, you know, he was very politically aware and
everything like that.
JJ:
What do you mean by that? What do you mean by that?
CR:
Well, he was a very proud --
JJ:
I mean, was he Republican, Democrat?
CR:
Oh, no, definitely Democrat. He’s as far left of a Democrat as you could make.
JJ:
Oh, he was far-left?
2
�CR:
Yeah. You know, that was his whole reasoning and everything like that. The
weird thing about it is that he would make a great occupier.
JJ:
Okay, you mean the occupy movement?
CR:
Yeah, that would be his --
JJ:
Well, did he talk to you about that?
CR:
He talked about it. He wouldn’t [00:04:00] talk to us about it, but he would just -like, guys would come into the store and he’d discuss things with them and I had
big ears. I would hear all this stuff, and Maria too. Even as young kids, we
realized there’s just something out there that deals with this politics stuff that
controls things, you know? He was very much aware of all of that. He was very
much aware of how the game is played and all that.
JJ:
The game’s played, what do you mean?
CR:
Well, you know, a politician comes to you and he says, “You’re a store owner, all
right? I want you to do this, I want you to do that. Can you put this --” “What are
you going to do for me?” You know, and the politician would say [00:05:00] this
and that. But at that time, all these store owners would also say, “Well, you
know, I’ve got this friend here and I’ve got this friend there, and I’ve got a cousin
here, and they all need help too.” Which I think is missing in people today, that
it’s what’s the largest amount -- and I don’t blame people for this -- what’s the
largest amount you can offer me? And there’s no mention of the other people,
you know, no mention of the cousin, the familia there, and all that. It’s just, “What
can you do for me?” And then it goes on from there. That’s one thing that’s
missing from us, that we don’t think like that anymore, you know? It’s like
3
�[00:06:00] at that time, people were still coming over, all right, and we knew
people that were still coming over.
JJ:
Were still coming over from Puerto Rico?
CR:
Yeah. Right now, nobody knows anybody that’s coming over. They just know
people that go back and forth. Everybody’s just entrenched here. There’s
another difference. It’s like I said, everybody’s just entrenched here, but they’re
not a part of the culture, you know? I spent a few months in New York, and God,
I love that city. Everything, every ethnic group in New York is entrenched in New
York. It’s like you will never see [00:07:00] a Polish guy drive by and say, “Oh,
yeah, Mami,” all right? But you would see that in New York because Puerto
Rican culture is a deep part of New York. All these fascinating things in New York
-- it was just like part of the thing, you know? It’s like salsa dancing was
(inaudible) yeah, all right, we do that at the bar. What’s the big deal, you know?
But then here, that just wasn’t the case. It was like we’re just so separate from
all of that. Then as I studied further, I came to the realization that’s all Chicago,
all right? Yeah, I dated an Italian girl who lived on Taylor Street, and you would
swear --
JJ:
She lived on Taylor or you lived on Taylor?
CR:
She lived on Taylor. I lived [00:08:00] around, you know, Wilton and Grace, there
around Sheffield, I think it was, or Fremont, one of those two streets. And it was
like that area, which I used to call Little Italy, that’s where it was, you know?
Then I had friends who lived in Bridgeport, and that’s where that was. It’s like
nobody in this city -- and I couldn’t understand it because it’s hell getting around
4
�in New York. But here, it was so easy back then. You could get anywhere you
wanted to all the way from where the Baháʼí Temple is, from Wilmette all the way
down to Blue Island, and damn close to Gary in this city. It doesn’t take more
than 45 minutes. [00:09:00] I used to do that, get on that train and do that, and
though my feelings were deeply Pan-African, I still love -JJ:
What is that? What is Pan-African?
CR:
That so many people of color in North America who are here now, particularly
people in the islands and here, have root ties to Africa because of the slavery.
But then later on, I learned we also have deep root ties to the Mediterranean, you
know? That was the coolest thing when I went. I was working for this photo
agency like around 1989 and they sent me to Europe, and particularly the
Mediterranean. I was doing fashion photography there and I was going from -- I
lived a quarter of the year in Barcelona, [00:10:00] a quarter of the year in SaintAntoine in France, and then I spent time in Turkey and Morocco, and damn, the
Mediterranean is like -- and then I come back here and I’m like, we’re so much
closer to each other. Why can’t we have that here, you know? As I say, it’s not
always gonna be harmonious, of course. You have conflict within families. Just
go to a Puerto Rican or an Italian wedding. They all end the same, all right?
Puerto Rican and Italian weddings, the girls outside pulling their hairs out and
guys just drinking beer, watching them.
JJ:
Fights, you mean?
CR:
Hmm?
JJ:
You mean like fights?
5
�CR:
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don’t know what it is that weddings
bring out in all of us, but [00:11:00] that’s like a connection. I would say to
people, “Well, yeah, that’s that connection. That’s because the historical blood
line connection from the island Puerto Rico to the Mediterranean,” you know?
JJ:
So you’re saying there’s some historic line there?
CR:
Oh, yeah, it’s a historic genetic line, especially from Puerto Rico to Spain,
France, and Morocco, all right? There’s folk music from Morocco that you would
swear, if you heard it, jibaros in Puerto Rico would be singing. But that’s the
connection because, see, the Spanish and the Portuguese were unlike the
Northern Europeans. They brought everybody over.
JJ:
I know that Spain, [00:12:00] Arab countries who ruled Spain for 800 years. So
you’re saying in Morocco, they do jibaro music?
CR:
Yeah. It’s got the same -- well, they have a different type of stringed instrument,
but it’s like the same way. A little bongos, someone playing the stringed
instrument, and this chanting back and forth, and with a constant “Lo-le-lo-li.”
JJ:
Lo-le-lo-li?
CR:
Right. Then later on, you hear that in Spanish flamenco. What’s called French
Apache dance, you can hear that in there too.
JJ:
Now, you said you got into the Pan-Africanism. What got you into that?
CR:
I used to read a lot and read weird stuff, right? And I found this guy [00:13:00]
named Frantz Fanon. I read his two books.
JJ:
Actually, the Young Lords met Frantz Fanon.
6
�CR:
Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, that’s where I got -- there was a poet who worked with the
Young Lords, Felipe Luciano.
JJ:
Oh, that’s right, yeah.
CR:
I met him at this party somewhere and he mentioned Frantz Fanon.
JJ:
In New York? He’s from New York.
CR:
Right. But he was here in Chicago.
JJ:
Okay, at that time.
CR:
It was somewhere in Hyde Park, something like that. It’s probably on the
University of Chicago campus. So he mentioned that, so I dug them out and
read them. Well, it was a weird concept to me because like everybody else at
that time, I just thought about this country, the United States. [00:14:00] Yeah, I
know they brought slaves over. But then his thought process was that there’s an
African diaspora out there, you know? And the thing about it is that later on, like
practically everything in the world, it became corrupted for political purposes. But
the idea behind it, that you don’t have to go out of your way to be African or
anything like that, but just enjoy that it’s there. Then later on when I got a chance
to go to Spain and the Mediterranean, I realized that it’s everywhere, you know,
because it sprung from the Moors culture, mixing in [00:15:00] with the Roman
culture.
JJ:
That’s what I was thinking of, the Moors. They were in Spain for 800 years.
Now, the Moors, I don’t understand, are they Morocco?
CR:
Yeah, they came out of Morocco. Morocco was their center of operations. They
came out of Morocco and their whole thing was to spread Islam, you know,
7
�throughout Eastern Europe. Well, they got as far as the British Isles and really
dominated for a long time.
JJ:
I really like jibaro music. I mean, my family played that and all that. So you
mentioned that and I (inaudible). So we might’ve gotten it from the Moors, then.
CR:
Oh, but, see, everything over here, we got from somewhere else because even
[00:16:00] what they call the Native Americans, well, there was once a land
bridge on the Siberian Strait and they came, basically immigrated from that part
of Siberia to here. So everything here came from the Old World, and then, you
know, there was also the theory of supercontinent where all the continents at one
time were one. Of course, that stuff splashes all over the place.
JJ:
Now, that, I had heard of that in some college class that I took. So where did you
go to school?
CR:
I started out at Malcolm X College.
JJ:
In grammar school.
CR:
Oh, grammar school, wow. The ones I can remember were King School when I
was a little kid, McLaren School later.
JJ:
On the North Side by Lakeview?
CR:
No, these were on the West Side.
JJ:
[00:17:00] West Side where?
CR:
In the area which is pretty much now the medical center, the University of Illinois
Medical Center.
JJ:
Oh, okay. Around Van Buren?
CR:
Yeah, we lived on Van Buren.
8
�JJ:
We used to call that La Madison.
CR:
Right.
JJ:
Do you remember that?
CR:
Yeah, I remember that. I remember them calling it -- now, Sundays right now, I
have a booth over at Maxwell Street Market. You know, we sell stuff. But I
remember back then, Maxwell Street being [La Halsted?]. You would go to
Terry’s and go through there. I remember -- this is the greatest memory, because
I needed a suit for my eighth grade graduation -- my mom taking me to this place
called Morry’s.
JJ:
Right, yeah, I went there.
CR:
Yeah, and she’s just the [bickering?] [00:18:00] and went back and forth between
her and the guy. He’s like, “Lady, I’ve gotta have lunch. I haven’t had lunch and
(inaudible).” And finally I’m getting the suit. The smell of the fabric, you know? It
was so cool. Then you go out and then from there, we went straight over to the
Polish places, you know, and got a Polish -- the weird thing about that is, like I
said, I’m working on Maxwell Street now, and the morning job that I have, we
service basically those restaurants, Maxwell Street restaurants and stuff like that.
JJ:
So Maxwell Street, can you describe what it was, I mean, at that time?
CR:
Well, back at that time, it was like this whole market of all kinds of stuff.
Whatever you [00:19:00] wanted, you could find at Maxwell Street. In addition to
that, you had musicians, you had artists, you had entertainment. Sometimes
some guy would get caught trying to steal from somebody and all the vendors in
9
�that area would just beat the crap out of him. They don’t call the police or
anything like that. It’s just get him out. Get out. Don’t come back.
JJ:
It was like an open market?
CR:
Oh, yeah, yeah, open. You had guys selling fruits.
JJ:
You can barter.
CR:
That was the whole thing. It’s like people bartering back and forth. What sticks
in my mind about that, again, the center relationship, it’s like when I was in
Morocco, I saw markets like that. That was the whole thing is bartering. This guy
was explaining it to me, “Well, no price here is set.”
JJ:
[00:20:00] You negotiate, whatever.
CR:
Right, so you have to know how to negotiate, barter, but you have to be
entertaining. You can’t be rude or the seller will just cut you off. If you’re rude,
cuts you off.
JJ:
But a lot of Puerto Rican families used to go there?
CR:
Puerto Rican, Mexican, Black. Most vendors were Jewish.
JJ:
You’re talking about Pan-Africanism. Did you feel Puerto Rican or African? Or
maybe I’m saying that in a wrong --
CR:
No, no, no, you’re saying it pretty much the right way. I felt that nationalities
didn’t count. Back during that time, I didn’t call myself Puerto Rican. I didn’t call
myself American. What counted was what you, the individual, were made of. I
looked at myself as someone who is deeply African with [00:21:00] sprinkles of
Spain and France in there because whenever I would see that -- I just knew that
was in there, you know? But I didn’t know exactly how it was in there until I went
10
�there. So back then, anyone would tell you, who knew me back then, I’d just
never call myself Puerto Rican. I also never called myself American, despite the
fact that when I was in high school, I was in ROTC. But most guys, that’s so you
don’t have to swim naked in gym. That’s the reason why guys get into ROTC.
Well, back in those days.
JJ:
What high school was that?
CR:
Waller. Robert A. Waller. Now it’s Lincoln --
JJ:
You went to Waller High School? [I went there?].
CR:
Whom?
JJ:
So how did you go to Waller High School? You were living up north.
CR:
We moved out here. When we moved --
JJ:
You [00:22:00] lived on Van Buren.
CR:
Right. Then from Van Buren, we moved to (inaudible). Back then? To me, it
was cool.
JJ:
Okay, what do you mean?
CR:
I just mean I was in contact with Black kids, white kids, or what every other
Puerto Rican called [los hilbilos?].
JJ:
[Los hilbilos?]?
CR:
Yeah, there were a lot of kids, a lot of families in that area --
JJ:
Hillbillies? Los hilbilos, los hilbilos.
CR:
Yeah, right. But Southern --
JJ:
(inaudible).
CR:
Yeah, a lot of Southern immigrants there --
11
�JJ:
At Van Buren (inaudible).
CR:
Yeah, and there were Puerto Ricans, there were Mexicans, there were Blacks.
So my feeling was, you know, this is kind of cool. Everybody seemed to get
along, so as I grew older, [00:23:00] I was always fascinated by the news and
stuff like that on television.
JJ:
So now you’ve moved from Van Buren. You guys move into the Lincoln Park
neighborhood.
CR:
Not yet. We moved, but still on the West Side. The weirdest place, all right? I
can’t even tell you where it was. All I can remember of it is, like, overgrowth.
That’s all I could ever see was overgrowth. It was dank and dark.
JJ:
What do you mean, overgrowth? Grass?
CR:
Grass, plants. An incredible amount of grasshoppers and crickets, just like they
were everywhere. You could smell that tobacco. That was our backyard. I could
tell that my mother absolutely hated it, you know, and we were there, like, two
months, and she never unpacked [00:24:00] and we were gone from there. Then
we ended up in the Lakeview area.
JJ:
In Lincoln Park.
CR:
Right, right, Lincoln Park.
JJ:
Because it had Waller and all that.
CR:
Right. We were on Halsted and Orchard.
JJ:
Okay, they run the same, so you mean --
12
�CR:
No, no, Halsted -- actually, Armitage, because I would go -- yeah, Armitage was
the street where Waller was on, Orchard and Armitage. Right. So we were on
Fremont and Armitage, and between Armitage and -- you know, that area now.
JJ:
And Wisconsin, yeah.
CR:
Yeah. No, and North Avenue.
JJ:
And North Avenue, okay. But then (inaudible).
CR:
Dickens -- no, not Dickens, but another English author street. Willow. Willow
and then North Avenue, okay. And that area back [00:25:00] then was --
JJ:
So you moved a couple places in there?
CR:
No, no, no, we were always on Fremont.
JJ:
Fremont between Willow and North Avenue?
CR:
Right.
JJ:
I got you.
CR:
No, between Willow and Armitage.
JJ:
Okay, all right. And what year was that? Because I lived on Fremont.
CR:
Around ’69. Yeah, around ’69 because it was the year that the Cubs were doing
good.
JJ:
Okay. In ’69, we had the church, the Young Lords church there. You didn’t
notice that?
CR:
No, so that must’ve been --
JJ:
Sixty-eight. It must’ve been ’68.
CR:
Sixty-eight or ’67, yeah. So, you know, we moved around there. You know
what? It was around the time of Martin Luther King’s assassination.
13
�JJ:
That was ’68.
CR:
Right, so that’s when it was, because that’s what I remember most about that is
that [00:26:00] when we moved there, there was still that mixture that I enjoyed.
But then King was assassinated and it just all blew up, you know? It all went to
hell. Nobody wanted to associate. And Waller, the weird thing about Waller is
that it encompassed -- the Cabrini-Green, but also the Gold Coast where you had
bastards that’re just too cheap to send kids to Parker or Latin. They said, “Oh,
well, let them go to Waller. It’s free.” So there were a bunch of rich kids there
who detested their parents, rich white kids who detested their parents and
associated with us. My particular group there was, like, we all wanted [00:27:00]
to be artists in one way or another. I wanted to be a writer and a trumpet player,
and there was another. There was two other guys that did get to -- man, they
actually did get their dreams because they worked with Spike Lee.
JJ:
[Who were these?].
CR:
Yeah, Rob and Gus.
JJ:
Rob and Gus. Friends of yours?
CR:
Yeah. And they got to work -- well, hell, they’re in Amsterdam now, you know,
just sitting back.
JJ:
You don’t remember their last names or anything?
CR:
Rob was Smith and Gus was Stone.
JJ:
Okay. And these are close friends of yours?
CR:
Well, they were.
JJ:
Yeah, but they made it.
14
�CR:
Well, they made it, yeah. They made it the way we all said -- because we all
wanted to be basically -- you know what’s weird? Because that was, what, 1968.
But if you were a person who loved classical music [00:28:00] and jazz, for some
reason, there was a gas link to the late ’50s. Real cool jazz, real jazz, inventive
jazz was, like, it. You actually heard it on the radio. And it’s all artists, whether
you were painters, actors, whatever, gravitated towards that because the
improvisation and everything like that. That, Pablo Picasso paintings, you know,
Chagall, and all that. You gravitate towards that because of the improvisation.
This is creative. This is what I wanna do is create, you know? And before King’s
assassination. You really had [00:29:00] that. Then after the assassination, it’s
like everybody splintered off, even the Blacks.
JJ:
There were riots at Waller. I remember those.
CR:
You’ll have to tell me that. I was standing there watching. I was like, well, I’ve
gotta help me. But then that’s what bugged me the most, was there was this one
Puerto Rican girl who was, like, the sweetest girl in the world and everybody got
along with her. Then there was this Black kid who’s the same way, and on the
day of the riots -- I remember them all -- they were good friends, and they’re
walking up. He’s walking her home and a bunch of Black kids attack them.
[00:30:00] And what I remember about that is --
JJ:
Why did they attack them?
CR:
Because everybody was running around rioting. It was after King had been
assassinated. I remember our teacher standing us by the window. Are you
parked all right out there?
15
�JJ:
Yeah, I’m parked.
CR:
Okay. They’re saying that the school was closed and all that, and I remember
going down and standing around and looking around. I remember a bunch of
Black kids pushing a bunch of Latin Kings, chasing down these white kids, and
beating the crap out of them. I was wondering, what does this mean? I
understand people are mad that this man was dead. I had already started
studying politics [00:31:00] back then, so I pretty much knew about that. But, you
know, why is this necessary? And it just blew my mind. It sort of led me to
wanna find out, all right, these people, why don’t we act like that? I’ve gotta find
out about myself, all right? And in trying to find out myself --
JJ:
(inaudible) Martin Luther King’s death, you wanted to find out about yourself.
CR:
Yeah, you know, because it seemed important back then to know where you
stand. I didn’t understand. What the hell are you talking about? Is this a cowboy
movie? You know, because I used to watch a lot of the old -- well, I still do. All
my DVDs are old movies.
JJ:
Oh, cowboy movies?
CR:
All old movies. Anything made before [00:32:00] the ’50s was just outstanding.
Anything made during the ’50s is really cool, you know, because it’s so camp and
dumb. Then you had the ’60s where nothing really happened. Then later on in
the ’70s, you had the slasher films appearing, and that’s really cool because
there are artistic films where the director and writers are actually trying to say
something and there’s just films that go straight to DVD. Trying to figure out
which is which is pretty cool.
16
�JJ:
Now, you were in Waller. How many years did you go there?
CR:
Well, I went there five years, all right? I failed one year, but I did it on purpose
because there was a girl there [00:33:00] that I was going with that wouldn’t
graduate until after I did. So I figured, well, you know -- this is the way my mind
works -- I figured, well, when I was in grade school, I went from fifth to seventh
grade, so I owe them a year. What the hell? Actually hell is not the word. So I
said, I love this girl. I wanna be around her and everything. So, yeah, I’ll just
blow a year of high school.
JJ:
So you went from what year to what year?
CR:
Now, see, that’s all confused. About ’69 to ’72.
JJ:
Oh, ’69 to ’72, you went?
CR:
Yeah, about somewhere around there.
JJ:
Okay, ’69 to ’72. So you didn’t become familiar with the Young Lords then.
CR:
Actually, well, yeah, I had heard about everything because I was a student
[00:34:00] of politics. I was studying personally. At Waller, this was the thing at
Waller. I would present that to my teachers and I had a couple of teachers -- for
some reason, the history teachers there were just very, very conservative. “This
is garbage.” Then I would present it to my English teachers, the literature
teachers, the music teachers, and they said, “Wow, this is cool.” Not exactly that,
but you know. I would say, “Okay, I don’t know what’s going on here, but I don’t
care.” (laughs) So I hung around for that last year, and then didn’t turn out so
good because her father ended up -- well, her mother died, [00:35:00] and then
her father turned her into his wife. She ended up committing suicide.
17
�JJ:
(inaudible).
CR:
Yeah. So it was like, wow. I mean, I didn’t think about losing the year. I just
thought about, this is nuts. This shouldn’t be happening. This is something I
should be writing, not something that should --
JJ:
Was this a Puerto Rican girl or no?
CR:
No, she was Black.
JJ:
She was Black, okay.
CR:
Yeah, they lived in Cabrini-Green, and her father was like this storefront minister,
you know. I didn’t know the weirdness that was going on there. But, see, that’s
the way it is. In a way, that’s why I can’t stand these reality shows, you know?
Because all the weirdness is there, [00:36:00] all right? That makes it harder for
writers because what the hell? How can we go beyond this? We can’t astonish
people anymore. Everything is just out there. But back in those days, all these
secrets that were running around -- as a matter of fact, that’s part of a novel that I
wrote about a private detective working around that period and the things he -well, you know, that’s basically what a lot of private detective fiction is. You start
here and then it gets dirtier and dirtier and dirtier and wealthier and wealthier and
wealthier.
JJ:
Now, you said you’ve had some things published already, right?
CR:
Yeah, short stories, poems in weird, defunct [00:37:00] magazines. I tend to
follow the line of pulp writers, although I consider them the greatest writers ever.
JJ:
Consider them what?
CR:
Excuse me?
18
�JJ:
The greatest writer what?
CR:
Ever. I mean, that period of fiction that started with Dickens and then Conan
Doyle. And around that same period, even though it didn’t deal with crime, you
had Dostoevsky, the Russian writers. There’s just fiction that came out of that
that’s here forever because the feelings are there forever. Then as you got into
the ’30s, pulp writers were writing these detective stories. Dashiell Hammett.
See, that was my thing. [00:38:00] I always wanted to be a combination of
Dashiell Hammett and Raymond Chandler and Ernest Hemingway. Their writing,
you know, it brought you into these worlds. I think that’s very difficult to do now
because those worlds are for you to see on cable and even on regular television
now.
JJ:
So what was Waller like, though, I mean, during the time you were there?
CR:
See, that was weird because, again, before the riots, it seemed like everybody,
despite whether you liked each other or not, you got along, all right? Then after
the riots, everybody was just mean except for, like, kids who had their little
groups and cliques, which we were considered [00:39:00] the uncool, the dorks.
But nobody messed with us because we learned [harmony?].
JJ:
Uncool, the dorks, because you didn’t belong to a group?
CR:
Because we weren’t hating each other. It’s like all of these two or three little
groups, you had the Puerto Rican kid. With our group, I was the Puerto Rican.
Then there were three Black guys. Then there was a Japanese kid and there
was a Puerto Rican girl, then I always dated someone Black. We were all
interested in art and jazz, so we would end up in places we weren’t supposed to
19
�be while all the other kids [00:40:00] were at sock hops and things like that, you
know? Then there was other kids who were in the chess club and things.
JJ:
Sock hops? You mean --
CR:
Dances, stuff like that.
JJ:
So a lot of dances going on in the neighborhood?
CR:
Oh, yeah, when I was in ROTC, we ushered for this group that became real, real
popular called -- and now I forgot their name. But I remember that they were
real, real popular, and we ushered for them at a show. They had all kinds of stuff
going on around there.
JJ:
What about the neighborhood at that time, ’69, ’70? What type of population?
CR:
Again, it was everything depending on -- every block seemed to change. You
would have a block that seemed to be mostly Puerto Rican. Then you would
come across a block that was mostly Mexican. [00:41:00] Then there would be
really right across the street, the building across the street would have a bunch of
white folks in it. Then you would have a business, and whoever the kid was, the
business -- there was this -- I think it’s still there on Armitage and Sheffield -there was this cleaners. There was this Japanese kid whose family owned the
cleaner. He was the coolest kid in the world. He hung out and everything like
that, you know. That’s what you had from block to block to block. Then you
would get to North Avenue and then the projects would start, and it was weird
because the projects, the white buildings that were on Halsted and North Avenue
-- or, no, Halsted and Division [00:42:00] were mostly Puerto Rican. Then you
had some whites --
20
�JJ:
You’re talking about the Cabrini-Green.
CR:
Right.
JJ:
The white projects there.
CR:
Right. Then you had some whites there too and it was predominantly --
JJ:
Did you know people from there?
CR:
Oh, yeah, my best friends were from there. My girlfriend was there.
JJ:
In the white projects?
CR:
No, no, no, no, at the red projects on Cleveland where they used to -- the
beginning of Good Times?
JJ:
Right.
CR:
Yeah, right. They would show those, and that’s where most of my friends were.
Like I said, we really wanted to be bohemians, you know? I mean, kids would
look at us because we’d come to school with black turtlenecks and black berets,
and the girls would be wearing the black leotards and black leather skirts with flat
[00:43:00] shoes. The kids then would look at us the way they look at the goth
kids, you know. It was the same reaction. But there was no violent anything until
after the riots. Then after the riots, for a couple of years, it was like nobody
wanted to like each other. We hated that because we wanted to like everybody.
It was like wherever we went, if we went back home, there were gangs around.
They would, you know, they says, “Nah, you’ve gotta represent something. It’s
either us or them.” So all of us, especially in Cabrini-Green, because there were
like three gangs around there, recruiting -- what they used to call recruiting, you
know? And it was weird. [00:44:00] I sort of thought about this last year when I
21
�was watching a film on King, that it’s so weird that so many things just ended
after he was assassinated. They haven’t come back yet. I mean, this whole
thing that’s going on now, the current election, that’s all about what was going on
back then. It’s all hatred. They’re just people in this country, can’t stand to have
a Black president, want people of Hispanic descent -- despite the fact we’ve been
here longer than them, if you count the fact that Spain was here 600 years ago -they want us out and want to destroy whatever women have gained. I don’t
understand [00:45:00] that. It drives me nuts because it’s the same crap I used
to hear back then. How could we have not evolved in anything but sports? Back
then, I loved soccer and I would never admit I was in the United States because
we had a crappy soccer team. Now we’ve got one of the best teams in the world.
How come everything else hasn’t evolved like that? Why do we have people
running around this country, wanting to turn it into a Christian Iran, you know?
And nothing against -- I love Persian people. My girlfriend is Persian. But I’m
talking about the theocracy and the government that just takes the life out of
people. Why do people in this country wanna do that to this country? I don’t
understand it. It drives me nuts. [00:46:00] And more than that, it’s the same
crap that was happening then. Why haven’t we advanced? See? This is the
potential for a wonderful, beautiful country, you know? Europeans wanna copy it
in the Euro zone. They’ll never do it because you’ll never get the Greeks and
Italians to agree on anything. I’ve been there, I know. But here, we’re just right
here right next to each other. It’s like we could sit down and watch football, but
we can’t communicate over our kid’s school. Doesn’t make any sense to me.
22
�JJ:
Did you go to college?
CR:
Yeah, I went to Malcolm X College, and then University of Illinois in [00:47:00]
Chicago, which is now Circle Campus.
JJ:
So Malcolm X College, you went to the first two years?
CR:
Right.
JJ:
Then you transferred to the University of Illinois Circle Campus?
CR:
Right.
JJ:
And you graduated?
CR:
Well, not technically. I haven’t paid my bills.
JJ:
You haven’t paid your bills?
CR:
Yeah, so I don’t have a degree. But eventually I’ll take care of that.
JJ:
Only when you pay your bills?
CR:
Well, no, it’s like, I mean, if somebody clicks in on it, you also get that tag that
there’s a problem with it or not accredited. It’s like you’ve got the degree but it
hasn’t been accredited. That’s the problem that a lot of college -- well, not all
college.
JJ:
Is that you or is that all the students?
CR:
Naw, that’s been around forever.
JJ:
So you pay your bill or you don’t get your --
CR:
You’ve got your degree, but if someone called us up, they’d say, “Wow, it’s not
accredited. [00:48:00] It was this problem. It was that.” I don’t think that
happens anymore because now --
JJ:
But you have your diploma, right?
23
�CR:
Yeah.
JJ:
So you can prove that you graduated.
CR:
Yeah, but, you know, nowadays with online and everything like that, everybody
double checks everything.
JJ:
Okay, and when they double check, they say it’s not accredited?
CR:
Right.
JJ:
Okay, so it works.
CR:
Right, because I still haven’t paid that old bill. But it doesn’t really matter, you
know, because the degrees -- see, I made the mistake of getting the degrees in
things that eventually just were all right, like in culture. My BA was in what was
called communications. That was journalism and all that. It was basically
journalism. But [00:49:00] now, a degree in journalism --
JJ:
So you have a BA in journalism.
CR:
Right.
JJ:
Okay.
CR:
Then later on, it was in cultural education.
JJ:
Oh, you have two degrees.
CR:
Yeah, a BA and a masters, and my masters was in cultural education. Then it
just got -- you know, who cares about that? We all know about culture. Even
then, though, I don’t know why I wanted degrees in that. Oh, I know why,
because they all got me involved with the jazz programs at the school. That’s
what I was after. Like I said, my whole thing was to either become a jazz
musician or one of those three writers because my mind was just like all in the
24
�’30s, ’40s, ’50s film noir. They call it film noir, [00:50:00] the private detective, the
black and white, the fedoras, and all that. Even though it’s contemporary, that’s
what most of my writing goes back to. They called it the hardboiled school of
writing. And I was fascinated by that. But, see, what I also wanted to do -- and I
was able to do this -- I wrote this story and it was published -- damn. I don’t
remember where it was published. I believe it was Playboy or whatever. And if
you remember, during that time, there was a lot of gang fighting, and there was
particularly a big rivalry between the Latin Eagles and the Harrison Gents, all
right? So I wrote a story in the ’30s style of writing where there was [00:51:00]
the Harrison Gents did something to -- it was very West Side Story. They did
something. He raped one of the sisters of one of the Eagles, and then the
Eagles just rained down violence and vengeance on them all. My purpose of the
story was to show how stupid all of this was, all right? For once in my lifetime, I
became a folk hero in that neighborhood because somebody got a hold of this
story and they looked at it from the point that, man, we killed off so-and-so.
JJ:
Wait, I think a family was killed.
CR:
Yeah, that was back then.
JJ:
Because I was incarcerated when one of the Harrison Gents -- and then the
Eagles were my cousins. So I knew both sides. It was bad because he told me
it was his family. They got burnt. [00:52:00] They burned that down. You wrote
about it. You wrote about it.
CR:
Right. But, see --
JJ:
Small worlds.
25
�CR:
The weird thing about it, again, is, well, you know -- I can’t remember the
magazine it was published in, but my whole perception was these folks can’t
read. It’ll never end up with them. And somehow, someone showed it to them,
and I became a folk hero, you know? They loved the story. I was afraid I was
gonna get my ass kicked, but they loved the story and everything. Then I felt
cool because, see, that’s what a writer wants to do. One way or the other -- who
was it? The writer of one of those gothic novels. Jane Eyre. Whoever wrote
Jane Eyre said that you [00:53:00] know what a writer wants to do is for you -maybe she didn’t say this -- but anyway, for the reader to embrace them or give
them a good boot in the [beer?]. Either way, you want a reaction. That’s when I
felt, wow, I had done that.
JJ:
Let me ask you, because your writing, you also lived on Wilton and Grace.
CR:
Right.
JJ:
Right. Was it right after you graduated that you moved up there?
CR:
It was just before graduation.
JJ:
That you moved the family?
CR:
Yeah, that the family moved around there.
JJ:
(inaudible) by Sheffield near Grace.
CR:
Right.
JJ:
So a lot of families [followed Sheffield up?] from Halsted.
CR:
Yeah, we went west. You know, go west. That’s what [00:54:00] ended up
happening to us.
JJ:
Was there a reason why you moved?
26
�CR:
Yeah, because, you know, rent. That’s always the reason why us or anyone else
moved was rent.
JJ:
What do you mean, the rent?
CR:
The rent got too high, so you moved to an area where the rent wasn’t as high.
JJ:
Okay. You mean the neighborhood was changing? The rent was getting high?
CR:
Yeah, I guess so.
JJ:
You guess so. But you know that the rent was high.
CR:
Yeah. Well, I knew when we got ready to move, it was because the rent was too
high, you know?
JJ:
You raise that rent, we’re moving.
CR:
Right, that was it.
JJ:
[From here to you?] (inaudible).
CR:
Right. That’s why we moved where we moved.
JJ:
So you moved by Wrigley Field, by that neighborhood, the Lakeview
neighborhood, from Lincoln Park to Lakeview.
CR:
No, that is the Lakeview was called the Lakeview.
JJ:
[00:55:00] It goes up to --
CR:
See, I always thought of it as New Town.
JJ:
New Town is --
CR:
The gay part of the North Side.
JJ:
Yeah, it’s connected to Lakeview.
CR:
Yeah, because I used to live on Wellington. I had an apartment on Wellington
and Broadway.
27
�JJ:
Oh, Wellington and Broadway is New Town.
CR:
Yeah, right.
JJ:
You didn’t move in with your parents?
CR:
No, that was after I was out of college. First I was married, and we were married
about nine years. Then after we broke up, I moved back to that area, and I had a
place around there.
JJ:
In New Town near Broadway and Clark, in those areas?
CR:
Yeah, around there.
JJ:
Then [00:56:00] Lakeview is north of Diversey.
CR:
Okay. And I guess west of Clark Street.
JJ:
Yeah.
CR:
Yeah. Okay, I get that now. Now, see, at that time, there was no Wrigleyville,
though.
JJ:
Right. They didn’t call it Wrigleyville?
CR:
Yeah. Well, you know that area that’s around the ballpark is basically
Wrigleyville.
JJ:
So you lived right by the [ball park?].
CR:
Mm-hmm.
JJ:
You moved, what, around 1972 or something?
CR:
Yeah, ’72, because my last year. It was my last year in high school.
JJ:
So by ’72, Lincoln Park was (inaudible).
CR:
Oh, no. Yeah, by ’72, Lincoln Park was gone.
JJ:
It was gone. There were no more Puerto Rican families, poor families.
28
�CR:
No. [00:57:00] There are two families living on Orchard, between Armitage. You
know, there’s this little hot dog stand right across the street from [one of them?].
JJ:
Right now?
CR:
Right. And right there on Armitage, between Armitage and the next street over -which it’s Willow or whatever it is -- there are two Puerto Rican families who own
the buildings who still live there.
JJ:
Recently you’ve seen?
CR:
They’re there. I don’t know them personally, but I just know that they’re Puerto
Rican.
JJ:
I mean, how do you know they’re there?
CR:
Because I see them.
JJ:
When you go there?
CR:
I run seven miles in the morning, you know. That’s my workout. Well, yoga first,
and then I run seven miles. [00:58:00] Once a week, I run down Armitage, and
the grandmothers --
JJ:
Is there a reason why you picked Armitage?
CR:
Habit. Yeah, you know, it’s just a habit, just going over the bridge and then going
down towards Armitage, under that underpass where that big factory is. You
know, it’s just something about it that’s just -- it’s like an odyssey. I also think,
like, for me it’s personal. It’s the only familiar thing that I know. So I do it once a
week.
JJ:
Okay, all the way from [here?], pretty far west.
29
�CR:
Yeah, but if you’ve been running all your life, if you’ve gotta run all your life, that
doesn’t mean anything.
JJ:
[00:59:00] Okay.
CR:
Yeah, you can do it in an hour.
JJ:
Okay.
CR:
So it’s like nothing. Well, maybe in the winter.
JJ:
It might take me three days.
CR:
Maybe in the winter, a little longer.
JJ:
Yeah, for me, it might take me three days (inaudible). (laughter)
CR:
Well, you know, some people aren’t made to.
JJ:
Okay, so now you’re on Wilton and Grace, and this is ’72.
CR:
Yeah, around that time.
JJ:
And what type of neighborhood is it now?
CR:
See, here’s where the problem comes with me. I didn’t spend a lot of time in the
neighborhood. I was off trying to (inaudible). I was going to college and also our
main hangout was jazz clubs on Clark Street and thereabout, the Happy Medium
and all that. They don’t exist anymore. The only one [01:00:00] left I think is the
Jazz Showcase, and he moves from one place to another. You know, but there
was the Sardine Club and all of that, and for some reason, I looked old enough
for them not to bother me to come in. I was a photographer. I was doing photo
[arts?] and all that. So it was like I was so involved in everything, and I was
involved in soccer. I love soccer. I just wasn’t around the neighborhood that
30
�much. The most time I spent around the neighborhood, it was like I got involved
with the art group [El Taller?].
JJ:
Oh, [El Taller?]. With (inaudible).
CR:
Yeah, (inaudible). We would have meetings a couple of times. But then even --
JJ:
Did you draw?
CR:
No, no, no, no, I was a photographer, photographer and a poet.
JJ:
Okay, that’s right.
CR:
[01:01:00] We would have meetings. That was cool. But then I would go home
and then I wouldn’t spend that much time. The most time I spent in that
neighborhood was when my sister got me involved with your campaign.
JJ:
The alderman campaign?
CR:
Right. But you know what? It was kind of pleasant because you did have -again, what I like, people of all kinds all over the place. It started to change after
we left.
JJ:
In what way?
CR:
Well, now it’s just strictly a yuppie area.
JJ:
Okay. So all the families moved out?
CR:
Yeah, there’s basically no families.
JJ:
But for a little period, what?
CR:
Yeah, there were families. There were people all over. The coolest thing that I
used to love to do is go take pictures of people [01:02:00] in the summer in the
swimming pool because that was at Arnold Park, right? They had the swimming
31
�pool there, and everyone from the neighborhood would be there. I took some
really great pictures.
JJ:
Of Arnold Park?
CR:
Yeah, and the people, and you could see all the colors. I only shot in black and
white back then, which I still prefer, you know. But you could still see all the
shades, all the colors, all the differences in people’s physique. I remember
showing some pictures to some friends of mine who were like, “Aw, she’s
Egyptian.” I said, “No, she’s not.” They would all look at this. “Wow, look at this
kid here. He’s got no skin tone, but he’s got curly hair, nappy hair.” That was the
coolest thing about that area. [01:03:00] Then you know the other thing, there
was a lot of weed around back in that area, and there were also musicians
around. I used to live west of there. A couple of the guys from Chicago used to
hang out. There was a recording studio somewhere on Willow, there around.
JJ:
At Willow, you mean back in Lincoln Park, right?
CR:
You know where that DePaul Campus is now, okay, and the seminary? Well, just
a little north -- north or south -- just a little south of there, there were like these
old turn of the century houses, the wooden houses, and all of them were
inhabited by recording artists. Like all these guys, most of them were white, but
they didn’t care who came up to their place to mess around with this and that.
[01:04:00] There was that community around there now. I don’t know if it exists.
I haven’t hung around DePaul in years. But that’s the way that area used to be.
You know, now everybody tells me it’s all retail. I know the Goodman Theatre
32
�has a theater there, and I used to go to a Borders over on North Avenue and
Halsted. I don’t think it’s there anymore.
JJ:
What do you remember of the campaign? Anything?
CR:
Yeah. I remember there was, like, a lot of hard work. I don’t know about
anybody else. I didn’t care about winning or losing, just the fact that there was a
Puerto Rican out there doing this. That’s the only thing that mattered to me.
That was cool. Oh, we might win, we might lose. What the hell? [01:05:00] Just
a Puerto Rican out there trying to do this, and that meant a lot to me because,
you know, I was a Puerto Rican out there trying to write, trying to play trumpet.
So just to see -- because it just seems like with us, man, we just don’t wanna try
sometimes. It’s just, uh, I dunno. We say, no, you’ve just gotta try, and just
trying, it leads to other things. We do have some cool guys -- well, you know, I
don’t think much of politicians, but we do have some guys out there doing stuff.
JJ:
So that wasn’t like a traditional campaign anyway, though, was it?
CR:
No. No. There were all these young people. You know, [01:06:00] traditionally a
couple of older guys would round guys up, tell them, “All right, you’re voting for
David. Get in there.” This was like young people, and young people putting out
the word and everything. Our parents, our neighbors looking at us like we were
crazy, you know, but there was always this feeling in me that there was a little bit
of pride in them for what we were doing.
JJ:
The adults, you mean?
CR:
Yeah, because, you know, they’d say, “No, don’t do that. [Soy comunista?].” And
all that.
33
�JJ:
So they were using it. The machine would spread rumors too, so they were
saying [es un comunista?].
CR:
Well, yeah, but everybody said that. But, see, [01:07:00] again, all that --
JJ:
How was our office? How did that look? Do you remember seeing the office?
CR:
Yeah, you had, like, you know, the person at the desk and then a couple of
classrooms or something.
JJ:
No, I mean outside. How was it painted?
CR:
I don’t remember the painting.
JJ:
You don’t remember the purple? There was a purple.
CR:
All right, now I do. Now I do.
JJ:
A weird color.
CR:
The weird thing about that is that later on when that rock singer Prince became
popular, and that purple -- I said, “The hell? There’s this guy -- like, is his father a
Young Lord or something?” That was all I could ever think about Prince, other
than the fact I saw his first concert ever. Well, I think it was his first concert.
[01:08:00] It was at I believe Northern Illinois University, football stadium. It was
the Rolling Stones tour and he was opening up for them, right? So his band
started up. They did something. Wow, these guys are like Devo. Then he
comes out and he’s got this long trenchcoat. He’s dancing around. That sounds
cool. Then he takes the trenchcoat off and he’s wearing a g-string and we’re like
-- (laughter) My girlfriend at this time, [Iona?] -- this white girl Iona -- she said,
“Get that faggot off the stage.” And it might be on YouTube with this can of beer
hitting the pianist from Prince’s band. That was my girlfriend throwing that beer,
34
�you know. And people were going nuts. “Get him off,” and everything like that.
After about 20 minutes, the Stones [01:09:00] came out and everybody rocked it
and everything. But now as an older, more civilized, mature person, I’m thinking,
okay, we ran Prince off to bring Mick on, who’s been having affairs with his
[basic?]. Again, well, I mean, at that time, it was insanity fueled by reefer, Johnny
Walker, and -- what were we snorting? Coke, I guess it was. No, it wasn’t.
Hash. We all wanted to be Jim Morrison back then. But, see, then that’s another
thing that I think the music was so much better back then, all right? I’m glad to
see Hispanic artists from Mexico, Ecuador, South America becoming mainstream
because that means money for them. But damn, [01:10:00] they’re losing the
music. I liked it better when there was a separation between art and what’s
popular. But I feel good for them because they’re making money.
JJ:
So what do you think about -- you were in Lincoln Park, and you also were in
Wilton and Grace. Both these communities had Puerto Ricans in it and other
minorities.
CR:
Right, right.
JJ:
But they left. Did they leave or were they pushed out?
CR:
Everybody left.
JJ:
Okay. They just wanna leave?
CR:
No, again, the rent was too high. And so everybody got moved west, and I mean
everybody. That was a big immigrant area, even [01:11:00] immigrants from the
South. There were a lot of people there from Kentucky, New Orleans, well,
Louisiana. You know, everybody got moved west.
35
�JJ:
They [get moved?].
CR:
Oh, no, no, it was got moved. I’m convinced there’s no way in the world this
could’ve happened accidentally, that there was a plan to just move people out
and take advantage --
JJ:
What convinced us?
CR:
Because it doesn’t make any other sense otherwise, and because I’ve gained -- I
love golf, you know, and I go to trade shows where I find deals and I sell deals to
people. What I found is that these types of things in cities, businesses like a
Walmart [01:12:00] or something like that, they target an area. Then they get
political, and through the politician, they get zones changed or whatever, and rent
becomes a little higher. Then people, friends of the investors, brothers and
sisters and all that, they go in there and buy. That’s how Wrigley Field became
Wrigleyville. Before it was all Puerto Ricans, Greeks, poor people, and a lot of
bohemian artists who were also poor people.
JJ:
Wrigleyville by the Cubs, right?
CR:
Right. That’s like one guy said to another guy --
JJ:
This was Puerto Ricans and poor people.
CR:
No, I’m talking about primarily restaurant and bar guys, the restaurant industry.
JJ:
No, no, but I’m saying before that.
CR:
Oh, yeah, before that. They said, [01:13:00] “All right, the Cubs are there. You
got that ballpark there. It draws. All right, let’s clean it up. Let’s clean up the
area.”
JJ:
Let’s clean it up?
36
�CR:
Yeah, let’s clean it. Let’s clean up --
JJ:
So cleaning it up means getting rid of --
CR:
Right, because you can buy the buildings --
JJ:
Am I putting words in your mouth?
CR:
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You buy the buildings cheap, you get rid of the
people that are there, you renovate ’em, and you sell them high. That’s how
Wrigleyville became Wrigleyville because that’s what they did in that whole area.
You know, bought the buildings cheap, they got rid of the people. I don’t know if
there was a westward move then. People just scattered. Some people went to
the South Side. Some people came back here to the West Side. [01:14:00]
Then other people -- wow, I know of Puerto Ricans who went back to the island
and are doing very well, you know. But people just disappeared. You know
what? You’ve got me interested now. In some way or another, in one of my runs,
I’m gonna stop and talk to those two women, you know, find out how they were
able to hold on, because it’s fascinating to me. I once ran by there on
Thanksgiving and their whole families on either side were there with the
traditional foods and everything. I bring them up because that area now, you
know what the rent is? The ownership tax, just owning property in that area right
now, is incredible because of the tax that you have to pay, because that to me
shows [01:15:00] a certain amount of success and survival. Well, that’s what it
is, success and survival.
JJ:
What do you mean?
37
�CR:
Everybody else got beaten out. They rode everything through to the point that
now when that area is at its most valuable, they’re still there, you know? They
weren’t beaten out. And that’s something that --
JJ:
Who wasn’t beaten out?
CR:
Those two Puerto Rican families.
JJ:
Okay, those Puerto Rican families on Orchard.
CR:
Yeah, because as you go down, you no longer have Cabrini-Green there
anymore, so it’s like, wow, if you wanna get poetic, those buildings were
destroyed. But these two families still thrive, you know, because when I went by
there last year, I could see someone coming in with a baby. I was like, wow,
that’s awfully cool. [01:16:00] So one of these days, I’m gonna stop off and say,
“Man, I’d like to write about you people.” You know what I mean.
JJ:
It’s getting late. Any final thoughts?
CR:
Well, the only final thoughts I have is that, you know, the ugliest thing in me is
this whole election. I want it over and done with. I respect the president. I think
he and his family have gone through this with the greatest grace, and so have
we. I think ethnic people, Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, Black, we’ve gone through
this with just the greatest restraint and calm because [01:17:00] I’m sure most of
us -- well, I don’t know. I won’t say most. I feel that his four years have been an
assault on me, all right?
JJ:
What do you mean? He assaulted you, you mean?
CR:
No, not him.
JJ:
But his four years?
38
�CR:
His four years have been an assault on him.
JJ:
Everybody has assaulted him.
CR:
Right. All right, in particular, Tea Party, all right? I just got into a thing with
someone earlier today. It’s like, stop with all the crap. That’s what I say to Tea
Party. Well, maybe that’s what I should say. Tea Party people, stop with all the
crap, all right? Because none of this is about the Constitution or anything like
that. When you’re young, running around young about give us our country
[01:18:00] back and all this -- you’ve heard of the gorilla in the living room, right?
The gorilla in the room, all right? Well, there are three right here that these
people just can’t stand. Number one, they can’t stand a Black president.
Number two, they can’t stand hearing what the Tribune published not too long
ago, that we Hispanics are gonna become the number one ethnic group in this
country. It’s driving them insane. Last but not least, they wanna destroy all the
rights that individual women have accumulated. And all that thing about anti-gay
marriage, anti-abortion, it’s all about those three things. I don’t wanna hear it
anymore. You know, when people say that Romney’s an idiot because -- and I’m
like, he’s a politician. Politicians are not idiots. [01:19:00] They just know that
when they’re talking to idiots, they have to talk like an idiot, you know? That’s
why that guy said that incredibly stupid, anti-biological stuff last week about rape.
Well, I’m not quitting -- yeah, I’m not quitting the race. Why should he? He’s five
points ahead even after having said that stuff. What does that tell you? He’s
talking to the stupid, you know? And we intelligent people have to realize that
there are a lot of stupid out there, and we’re never gonna educate them. So we
39
�just have to just go out there and occupy. Occupy the voting booth. I know who
I’m gonna vote for. You vote for who you want to, but do it because you really
feel that’s [01:20:00] the right person.
JJ:
What fascinates you about the Occupy movement?
CR:
That there’s no leader. It’s like something Mozart wrote, you know? There’s a
movement. It moves to something else. There’s a crescendo. There’s a long -but there’s no leadership in it. Someone hears about it and they go there. We’re
occupying this building. The cops may come out and kick our asses. Yeah, but I
like what you’re saying. I’m gonna occupy. There’s no leader to it. Now, the Tea
Party claims the same thing, but that’s crap, all right? They do have a leader. It’s
Ronald Reagan. That’s their whole philosophy, and by the way, [01:21:00] the
original political Tea Party was founded like in 1962, dedicated to make sure that
John F. Kennedy did not get voted in.
JJ:
In 1962?
CR:
Yeah. They’re not even original. There was a Tea Party in 1962. It was in
Dallas, Texas, right? And they didn’t want John F. Kennedy president, and that
was their whole thing. What are you people talking -- you copied from that.
There’s nothing original about this. And it’s totally organized, you know. And
that’s different from the Occupy, which isn’t organized. It’s like someone will
beep you on your phone and they’re saying, “We’re occupying here, we’re
occupying there for this, for that. Are you in?” If you’re in, you go there.
[01:22:00] You take time off from work or whatever. That’s what I love about the
Occupy movement, that it’s of the people. Now, the problem with it is that
40
�because it is of the people, and the people have made their statements, it can’t
be co-opted because -- no, man, I’ve gotta get to work. (laughs) You know?
JJ:
I appreciate it.
END OF VIDEO FILE
41
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b60d40e121ffe3ba96035fd98d4e96c8.mp4
a91132c3410f57b6d1ba73c98a7a8cbb
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives.
The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
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2017-04-25
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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eng
spa
Type
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Text
Identifier
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RHC-65
Coverage
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2012-2017
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Título
Spanish language Title entry
Carmelo Romero vídeo entrevista y biografía
Sujetos
Spanish language Subject terms
Young Lords (Organización)
Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos
Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales
Justicia social
Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago
Source
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a>
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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RHC-65_Romero_Carmelo
Title
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Carmelo Romero interview and transcript
Creator
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Romero, Carmelo
Description
An account of the resource
Carmelo Romero grew up in Lakeview and today lives in the Logan Square neighborhood of Chicago. His family lived in Lincoln Park and knew of the Young Lords. Mr. Romero volunteered to help with the Jiménez campaign for Alderman. Maria Romero, his sister, remains a full-fledged member of the Young Lords; in the 1970s she ran the office at Wilton and Grace Streets.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Date
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2012-08-23
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/65e4fa90b551daf302f4f605c12f1632.pdf
1540a035cd167c081a4da38789840edc
PDF Text
Text
Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: Carmen de Leon
Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 5/14/2012
Biography and Description
English
Carmen De Leon is a Young Lord who grew up in New York City and today lives in Loíza, Puerto Rico. A
strong advocate for women, Ms. De Leon worked closely with Young Lord Richie Pérez on a range of
education and youth centered programs. In her oral history, she recalls her days working with the Young
Lords. Ms. De Leon discusses how the Young Lords were infiltrated by government agents and how
“ideology” was utilized to factionalize and create divisions within the Movement, including encouraging
takeovers, discrediting, and purging leaders. She vividly describes members being taken hostage as well
as how she herself was purged from the Young Lords. Her interview provides important insights into
how these repressive tactics were carried out and how they ultimately destroyed the connections
between the Young Lords and the barrio base.
Spanish
Carmen De Leon es una Young Lord que creció en la cuidad de Nueva York y ahora vive en Loiza, Puerto
Rico. Soportará fuerte por mujeres, Señora De Leon trabajo cerca con el Young Lord Richie Pérez en
programas de educación para jóvenes. En su entrevista comparte sus memorias sobre los días que
trabajo con los Young Lords. Señora De Leon habla de cómo los Young Lords fueron infiltrados por
�agentes del gobierno y como “idolología” fue utilizado para nublar y hacer divisiones dentro del
movimiento. Esto también incluye soportando unos que tomen poder y descreditando los líderes. Con
vivacidad describe como los miembros fueron tomados como rehén y como ella misma fue purgada de
los Young Lords. Su entrevista nos da una prospectiva importante en cómo estos tácticos fueron
pasados y últimamente destruyo las conexiones dentro de los Young Lords y el barrio.
�Transcript
JOSE JIMENEZ:
(inaudible) the same as (inaudible). Ready [John?].
P1:
Recording.
JJ:
Okay, go ahead.
CARMEN DE LEON:
My name is Carmen [Iris?] de Leon [Quiñones?]. I was born
on August 13, 1955 at Bellevue Hospital in the Lower East Side of Manhattan,
New York City.
JJ:
Okay. And who were your parents?
CL:
My mom, her name is [Paula?] Quiñones. And my father, his name was José
Antonio de Leon.
JJ:
(inaudible) were they also born in New York?
CL:
My father was born in Juncos, Puerto Rico, and my mom in Gurabo, Puerto Rico.
But they did meet in New York.
JJ:
They met in New York?
CL:
Yeah.
JJ:
So what year did they (inaudible)
CL:
My mom was 16 when she arrived to New York, and she’s 79 now.
JJ:
[’30?] or something?
CL:
Yeah. Yeah, she [00:01:00] got to New York, I believe, like 1949, something like
that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
JJ:
And your father also came?
CL:
He was there. I don’t know what year my father...
1
�JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
I believe so, yeah.
JJ:
And what about your other siblings (inaudible)?
CL:
They’re all in New York.
JJ:
I mean how many? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
CL:
Oh, okay. I had five sisters and two brothers.
JJ:
(inaudible) their names (inaudible)
CL:
My oldest sister, her name is [Inez?], a brother named [David?], a sister named
[Nidia?], myself, sister named [Marixa?], sister named [Evelyn?], sister named
[Josephine?], and a brother named [José?].
JJ:
And you said the Lower East Side of Manhattan?
CL:
I was born and raised in the Lower East Side of Manhattan.
JJ:
Coming from Chicago, I have no idea [about that?]. What is that like? [00:02:00]
CL:
The Lower East Side, it’s the lower part of Manhattan where a lot of immigrants
resided there for work. And so a lot of Puerto Ricans, besides going to El Barrio
in Manhattan, they also resided in the Lower East Side.
JJ:
So it’s part of Manhattan, so (inaudible) Square, that area?
CL:
Okay, it’s not far from there.
JJ:
Not far from (inaudible) Square, that area.
CL:
Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Delancey Street housed in that area, close to Chinatown, not
far from Little Italy.
JJ:
So what are your first memories?
CL:
My first memories of the Lower East Side, as a child, it’s so funny because to me,
2
�all the Spanish people that I knew were Puerto Ricans. [00:03:00] (laughs) That
was it. And everyone worked. You know, that w-JJ:
What kind of jobs?
CL:
Sewing. My father, he was a welder. My mom didn’t work. She took care of the
kids. But everyone else, if you were not sewing, you were doing some sort of
manual labor.
JJ:
What was the housing? (inaudible)
CL:
The housing, well, we never lived in projects, but my parents always rented
apartments, which were like 35 dollars a month. So we lived on Ludlow Street,
which is in the Lower East Side. We lived on Sherriff Street.
JJ:
How many bedrooms (inaudible)
CL:
Two bedrooms, three bedrooms. And they were very, very big and very nice.
JJ:
I know at one time they had a bathtub in the (inaudible)
CL:
Yes, my grandmother lived in an apartment [00:04:00] where the bathtub was in
the kitchen and the toilet was in the hallway.
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
And they were like a railroad train type of apartment. You had, like, the kitchen,
then the living room, then the room, so they look like a train.
JJ:
Like if you were in the (inaudible)
CL:
Uh-huh.
JJ:
But they were good sized?
CL:
Some small, some fairly large.
JJ:
So what was the grammar school? Grammar school?
3
�CL:
Grammar school.
JJ:
Where did you go to grammar school?
CL:
I went to P.S. 160. When I started school, it was in first grade.
JJ:
So when they say P.S. 160, I’m not clear on (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
CL:
That’s an elementary school.
JJ:
Yeah. But I mean are all the schools called by number?
CL:
Public schools, yes. Well, in the Lower East Side, yeah.
JJ:
Is that (inaudible)
CL:
Well, I have no idea because we didn’t really live anywhere else.
JJ:
But they were all called by numbers?
CL:
By numbers, yeah.
JJ:
So in the school, it was all Puerto Ricans or...? (inaudible)
CL:
There were a lot of Puerto Ricans, [00:05:00] yes. But there were no Spanish
teachers at that time. And, like I said, when I started school, I started in the first
grade.
JJ:
Puerto Rican speaking Spanish or...?
CL:
Yeah. Puerto Ricans speaking Spanish.
JJ:
(inaudible) Spanish (inaudible)
CL:
Yeah, ’cause when I first started first grade, I didn’t speak any English.
JJ:
Where would they (inaudible) were they there (inaudible) Like what city did they
(inaudible)
CL:
No. Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. To me, everyone was all the same. The
parents spoke Spanish.
4
�JJ:
Like, culturally, were they from cities or from the country, the rural area.
CL:
Oh, that I don’t know. That, no. No.
JJ:
But they had (inaudible) generation.
CL:
I believe like me, you know, I was the first generation.
JJ:
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible) the late ’40s?
CL:
Yeah.
JJ:
(inaudible) late ’40s [in the end?] because I know (inaudible) Puerto Rico
(inaudible) 19... [00:06:00]
CL:
Yes.
JJ:
But there was a big immigration in late ’40s. Is that what you’re saying?
CL:
Uh-huh. I believe that the Puerto Ricans that migrated here in the early 1900s
mostly went to El Barrio.
JJ:
So that’s the old (inaudible)
CL:
Uh-huh. Yeah, because Tito Puente, he was born and raised, and his parents
were, like, there.
JJ:
Yeah so there were (inaudible) Okay, so El Barrio was the older --
CL:
Yeah.
JJ:
-- Puerto Rican section.
CL:
Mm-hmm.
JJ:
In the 1900s, so now the Lower East Side, there’s a new body that is forming?
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
CL:
Well, to me, you know, I never thought about that as a child, really. But I did
know that the parents did not speak English, so if they didn’t speak English
5
�obviously, to me, they had just -JJ:
So the most of the people didn’t speak English?
CL:
No.
JJ:
So they had to be new.
CL:
Yeah. [00:07:00]
JJ:
There was a new wave --
CL:
Uh-huh.
JJ:
-- of immigration in that area, the Lower East Side?
CL:
Uh-huh.
JJ:
Okay. So remember, what are some of the stores? Bodegas (inaudible)
CL:
The bodegas owned by Puerto Ricans.
JJ:
What kind of (inaudible)
CL:
No, we just called it the bodega. I remember, where I grew up on Ludlow Street,
the bodega, you would find [verdura, aguacate?], everything that you needed to
cook Puerto Rican food. The rice, the beans. And it used to strike me kind of
strange because he used to put hay on the wooden floor.
JJ:
Oh.
CL:
(laughs)
JJ:
In Chicago, they had hay (inaudible) used to say it (inaudible) because they used
to put hay on the floor (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
CL:
Especially when it rained.
JJ:
I don’t know why they did that.
CL:
No, no. [00:08:00]
6
�JJ:
But the name bodega -- so what, Ludlow you said (overlapping dialogue;
inaudible)
CL:
Ludlow Street was a fairly commercial street, mostly for Jewish store owners.
And they sold a lot of figurines. Beautiful, expensive figurines. But there was
just one bodega.
JJ:
So were there a lot of Jewish store owners, was there Spanish food and stuff like
that? Spanish products?
CL:
No.
JJ:
Or were there Puerto Rican stores owners?
CL:
The Puerto Rican store owners were the bodega y la carniceria, the meat
market, that was on the corner.
JJ:
Okay. So you went to P.S.?
CL:
160.
JJ:
160. And how far did you go in that school?
CL:
’til the sixth grade.
JJ:
Okay, the sixth grade. (inaudible)
CL:
Well, that’s the first time I saw Bozo.
JJ:
Oh, okay. [00:09:00] Bozo the Clown?
CL:
(laughs) Yes.
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
I was like, oh.
JJ:
Now you see him and (inaudible)
CL:
That’s where --
7
�JJ:
He came to the school or...?
CL:
Yeah, he came to the school to visit. That’s where they sent me to speech class
because, since I didn’t speak English, you know, they thought that I had just
gotten there from Puerto Rico. So they sent me the speech class ’cause I
couldn’t pronounce some of the English words the way they wanted me to
pronounce it.
JJ:
So they had a special speech class?
CL:
Yeah, for a lot of us.
JJ:
For a lot of people?
CL:
Yeah.
JJ:
’Cause other people, like, some people they would put back a grade.
CL:
Yeah, I was put back of grade as well in the fourth grade. Miss [Elwood?], I
remember her clearly.
JJ:
Okay. Then you were also in a speech class?
CL:
Yes.
JJ:
And there were other (inaudible) you there?
CL:
Yes. Yes. [00:10:00]
JJ:
What about your friends and then what kind of social life?
CL:
Well, school friends, when we went to school and we played recess, Double
Dutch, jumping rope.
JJ:
Double Dutch (inaudible)
CL:
You know, tag with the boys.
JJ:
Okay. So what about high school?
8
�CL:
I didn’t go to high school.
JJ:
Oh, you didn’t go to high school?
CL:
(laughs) No.
JJ:
Oh, okay. (inaudible)
CL:
I went to the Young Lords high school. (inaudible)
JJ:
You went to the Young Lords high school? Okay, what was the Young Lords
high school?
CL:
Well, let me first tell you how I got there. Again, like I told you, I was growing up
in the Lower East Side and drugs was kinda very rampant in the neighborhood
due to --
JJ:
What kind of drugs?
CL:
Heroin --
JJ:
Heroin. Okay.
CL:
-- mostly.
JJ:
What year was this?
CL:
’70.
JJ:
’70?
CL:
’71.
JJ:
(inaudible) was all over [00:11:00] (inaudible)
CL:
Gentrification.
JJ:
Oh, gentrification, that’s...
CL:
Yeah, this was the beginning of --
JJ:
Yeah, but you went from drugs to gentrification (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
9
�CL:
Yes, because -- Okay. Well, that’s why the drugs were put there because of the
gentrification. And what they did was --
JJ:
What do you mean?
CL:
Okay, they had a plan for the Lower East Side, and we were not included in the
plan. So you have to first get rid of the Puerto Ricans that were there in order to
execute the plan that they have now.
JJ:
Who is they?
CL:
The government, the rich --
JJ:
The city?
CL:
-- the city. And so what they did was they --
JJ:
Are you talking about the mayor or the alderman (inaudible)
CL:
Yeah, whoever was controlling it.
JJ:
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible) who are you talking about?
CL:
Well, I’m talking about whoever wanted this gentrification, and planned and
executed.
JJ:
Somebody had a plan, but it was a plan.
CL:
It was a plan.
JJ:
Why do you say it was a plan?
CL:
Because, after so many years, we see the results of the plan. [00:12:00] The
Lower East Side is totally a home --
JJ:
It looked like it was set up in a way that...
CL:
Yes. And so what they did was they infested the neighborhood with drugs.
JJ:
They came in with drugs?
10
�CL:
Well, yeah. What they did was -- well, it was easy, accessible to get the drugs.
So kids who didn’t have, they started to deal drugs. It was easy to get. So if you
don’t have any money, and you wanted money, well, then you deal drugs.
JJ:
(inaudible) everybody was selling and there was no police trying to stop it.
CL:
No.
JJ:
Is that what you mean? Something like that?
CL:
Yes.
JJ:
I mean, that’s what you’re saying?
CL:
Yes, yes, yeah. The police were not really doing much about the drugs. They
were very easily accessible to the kids.
JJ:
Okay. To the kids?
CL:
Yes, I was only 15, 16 years old.
JJ:
You were 15 or 16?
CL:
Yes.
JJ:
And then you started using drugs at 15 or 16?
CL:
I [00:13:00] started to experiment, yes.
JJ:
(inaudible) not snorting?
CL:
No, just the snorting. I never shot [sharps?].
JJ:
You never fooled with that?
CL:
No, no, no. And at the same time, the youth was getting very, very fed up of
what was going on in the Lower East Side. The Vietnam War. Our male friends
were being drafted to the...
JJ:
You’re talking about street youth or college youth?
11
�CL:
Street youth. Nobody was thinking about going to college.
JJ:
Okay, so they were upset. There was no college.
CL:
(laughs) No.
JJ:
There were no colleges at that time?
CL:
Yeah, there were colleges, but --
JJ:
But [not enough motivation?] (inaudible)
CL:
-- no one was thinking about going to college.
JJ:
There was people in the street (inaudible)
CL:
And so, you know, we would take the garbage and we’d go burn it, and the whole
social...
JJ:
But was this, like, before the Young Lords you were taking garbage and burning
it?
CL:
Well the Young Lords were already -- ’cause in [00:14:00] ’70, ’71, the Young
Lord’s Party was formed in New York.
JJ:
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
CL:
But there were other little groups coming about, like Movimiento Latino, that was
in the Lower East Side. Carlos Feliciano, his case was something, you know,
very big at that time in New York where they had placed a bomb in his car,
etcetera, etcetera.
JJ:
Right, so that was big and a lot of people were talking about that?
CL:
A lotta turmoil. And we were not gonna take that.
JJ:
And then there were people talking about the war too or...?
CL:
Yes.
12
�JJ:
On the Lower East Side, there was a lot of political work going on? People
passing leaflets and stuff like that or...?
CL:
Yes. Yes, there were. See, it was a dual type of thing because the drugs were
always there, and then on the other side, this was happening too. A lot of us
were becoming rebellious against our parents, against the establishment. And
so [00:15:00] I was becoming more aware.
JJ:
Against the parents? What do you mean?
CL:
Well, yeah, because, you know, our parents come from a generation that you do
as you’re told. Where our generation --
JJ:
So when you say a lot of others, you’re talkin’ ’bout women?
CL:
And the guys.
JJ:
And the guys. So, you got the parents that are telling you, “Do as you’re told.”?
CL:
Exactly. Don’t say a word.
JJ:
Yeah, and they’ll say you’re rebelling against them?
CL:
Yes. And the establishment as well.
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
Well, yeah. We would hit the streets, you know, we would go hang out, we would
go do a whole lotta cra--
JJ:
Hang out where?
CL:
Well, I used to go to this place called the [Latin House?] on Hester Street.
JJ:
What happened there? What was that like?
CL:
We would all come together, listen to music. At that time, the music was a lotta
slow jams. The (inaudible), The Stylistics. And that started to become more
13
�[00:16:00] of a family. And so, again, the question of money was a big issue for
kids, or for us then. And so when the Young Lords had the parade that they took
over the front of the parade. That really -- I was so impressed behind that. I
went.
JJ:
How did that happen? Because I wasn’t familiar with that. How’d it happen?
The regular Puerto Rican parade?
CL:
Parade and the police used to march in front.
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
And so the Lords felt that that was not right. The people should march in front.
JJ:
Police shouldn’t march in front.
CL:
Exactly, and so we were gonna take it over. I wasn’t a Lord then, but I wanted to
be a part of that, and so I went. And while I was there, my father saw me. And
so I was fighting my [00:17:00] father and the police at the same time because
my father was going to kick my butt. I was only 15 years old.
JJ:
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
CL:
Yes. And they were not too keen with the Young Lords. They felt that that was a
gang.
JJ:
Your father?
CL:
And my mother.
JJ:
But they thought it was a gang?
CL:
Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and like I said, our parents’ generation come from,
you do as you’re told. And you don’t say, you just do it. You don’t question it.
You don’t do otherwise.
14
�JJ:
So you guys took it over? Took over the front of it?
CL:
Well, there was a big riot. People got hurt, hit. The parade was --
JJ:
Anybody got arrested or...?
CL:
-- stopped. People got arrested.
JJ:
People got arrested? But, I mean, did you eventually take it over or no?
CL:
No.
JJ:
Or just got (inaudible)
CL:
It was just a lot of craziness going on.
JJ:
So if it was stopped, it must have been a [00:18:00] (inaudible)
CL:
Yes. Of course, yeah. Yes. Mm-hmm. But, you know, when I saw my father, I
was more scared of him. (laughter)
JJ:
I can deal with the police. (inaudible)
CL:
Exactly.
JJ:
(inaudible) Okay, so what other things that are going on?
CL:
Okay, so I start rebelling at home, like I was saying. You know, I would go to the
streets and there was, like, hang out. There was no sense of direction in my life.
I was just bouncing off the wall. And my mom, after us, you know, with the hard
hand. It wasn’t let’s sit and talk and let me explain, I’m gonna hit you for what
you’re doing. And so one day I got home about eight o’clock. When I got home,
I got severely punished physically [00:19:00] because this is the way...
JJ:
Your mother or your father?
CL:
My mother. My father, they had separated.
JJ:
Split up. (inaudible)
15
�CL:
So the next day --
JJ:
Now all your sibling was living in the house (inaudible)
CL:
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
JJ:
The next day, what happened?
CL:
So then the next thing, I had gone, sometime before, to court for Carlos
Feliciano, and I had met some of the members of the Young Lords, and I was like
really impressed. You know, these --
JJ:
What impressed you about them?
CL:
They looked like they had a direction, that they were going somewhere, that this
is what it should be. And so, you know, I had met them, etcetera, etcetera. So,
okay, I went home, whatever. So one day, a friend of mine says to me, “Well,
listen, you know, I have a friend, and he has some drugs. You want to start
dealing and make some money?” And I’m like, “Wow, yeah, why not? I can use
a couple of dollars.” And so we were on the corner [00:20:00] of Hester and
Forsyth Street. So there’s a park that goes from Houston all the way down to
Canal Street on Forsyth. So this was Hester and Forsyth. And I was with this
girl named [Elena?]. And we’re waiting there, and the guy just doesn’t show up.
And we’re waiting. And the guy doesn’t show up. So it must have been about
four o’clock, and I see this group passing by. And I see this guy that I had met at
the courthouse for Carlos Feliciano. His name was TC, or is TC, [Tony
Copeland?], who became my future husband. So as they’re walking by, I
recognized him and he recognized me. And so he, well, you know, we were very
happy to see each other. So he says to me, “What are you up to?” And I’m like,
16
�“Nothing.” Well, of course I wasn’t going to say here I’m waiting, [00:21:00] you
know, to do something really bad. So he says, “Why don’t you come with us?
We’re going to [Yihequan?] to see this movie.”
CL:
Yihequan is --
JJ:
Yihequan?
CL:
It was a Chinese group and they were located --
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
Dealing drugs.
JJ:
Oh, dealing drugs. Okay. So he walked in...
CL:
Okay, so he says, we’re gonna go see (inaudible) at Yihequan. So I says, “Yeah,
okay. I’ll go.” And it was about four or five o’clock in the evening. So I left, and I
didn’t do the thing about picking up drugs and dealing the drugs. Well, the movie
was great. I think we were watching Women Hold Half the Sky, and we had a
really great time. I don’t remember who else was there, but I do remember my
future husband was there. So it was about nine o’clock. And I am like, “What
time is it?” He says, [00:22:00] “It’s nine o’clock.” I’m like, “Oh my god. If I go
home now, I’m really -- they’re gonna kill me.
JJ:
They’re gonna kill me.
CL:
So I says to him. “Can I go with you guys?” And he says, “Well, yeah. If you
want to.” So I ran away with him and the Young Lords. So I call my sister and I
says to her, “Nidia, I’m not coming home. I’m safe. Just let mom know that I’m
safe.” So I went up to the Bronx, Cypress Avenue. 141st and Cypress. And so,
the next day, Tony, you know, TC as he was known back then, takes me to the
17
�storefront or the office.
JJ:
Now you’re staying with TC --
CL:
Yeah.
JJ:
-- himself or with --
CL:
Oh, no.
JJ:
-- the other Young Lords?
CL:
Okay, no. [00:23:00] He was sharing an apartment. They were called collectives
at that time.
JJ:
Okay. What are collectives. What is that?
CL:
Collective meaning several people lived together. It wasn’t just a man and a
woman, or a man and man, or woman and woman. There were several. There’d
been several couples, several friends.
JJ:
They were, like, couples. They weren’t (inaudible)
CL:
Yeah. Yeah. So it was him, [Lucky Luciano?], who’s [Felipe?] Luciano’s brother.
JJ:
Oh, Lucky Luciano? Okay.
CL:
Uh-huh. A girl that he was with then, and myself and Tony.
JJ:
And you were living together in that collective?
CL:
In that collective, yeah. Yeah.
JJ:
How did you pay them rent and stuff like that?
CL:
Oh, he paid the rent.
JJ:
Oh, he paid it? Okay, so [continue there?].
CL:
So, that was September of 1971.
JJ:
(inaudible) September of 1971?
18
�CL:
Well, it was late August beginning September [00:24:00] that I ran away that I ran
away with Tony and the Young Lords. And so, a few weeks later, you know, I
continued to call my sister to tell them, you know, that I’m fine. My mom was
hysterical and, you know, I was so young. So my sister knew where I was, and
she knew with whom I was with. And so, about three weeks later -- no. About a
couple of months later in October. October 15, 1971, my father was killed, and
so she needed to get ahold of me.
JJ:
How was he killed?
CL:
He was stabbed in a social club. They were drinking and one thing led to
another, and a friend of his, in fact, that was raised with him here in Juncos,
Puerto Rico, [00:25:00] stabbed him. And so when my mom tells my sister, then
now she has to tell my mom where I am because she has to go get me to go to a
funeral. And so I remember, I think it was a Sunday about seven o’clock in the
morning, it’s a knock on the door. So Tony gets up and he goes to answer the
door, and he’s in his underwear. And when he opens the door, it’s my mother.
And when, you know, he comes and he says, “Carmen, your mom is there.” I
totally freaked out. I said, “Oh my god, I’m in trouble now.” And so she was very,
very, very serious and very upset with me too. And so she said to me, “Your dad
passed away.” And I looked at her and I said, “So what am I supposed
[00:26:00] to do, cry?” ’cause I lived a life very angry with my father.
JJ:
(inaudible) Why?
CL:
Well, because he was very abusive with my mother. He had a lot of issues.
JJ:
What do you mean? Hit her?
19
�CL:
Yeah, he would. Yeah, physically --
JJ:
[Violencia?]?
CL:
-- abuse of her. Yeah. So anyway, I left with her. And we did the whole funeral
thing with my dad and whatever. So after all of that was over --
JJ:
What do you mean the whole thing?
CL:
Well, you know, going to the funeral with the family. They buried him here in
Puerto Rico. We didn’t partake in that. You know, there’s, like, this family feud.
I was all right with that back then. I was so upset with him. It was like a relief, if
you can understand.
JJ:
(inaudible) to get rid of your father?
CL:
Isn’t that a horrible thing to say? It’s just for my mom, you know.
JJ:
(inaudible) he was [close to?] your mom?
CL:
’Cause he would -- Yeah. Yeah. [00:27:00]
JJ:
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
CL:
Very, very close to her.
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
So I went back home, and she thought that I was going to stay at home. And I
said to her, “I just can’t do this anymore. You know, to me, I want to be there.
You know, I want to change the world. I feel that that’s where I belong.” And so I
went back to live with Tony and to become a Young Lord.
JJ:
While you were there living with Tony, you were still in the collective? Or no?
CL:
Yes. Yes.
JJ:
You were still living in the collective together.
20
�CL:
Uh-huh.
JJ:
So what were some of the work that you were doing? What was some of the
work?
CL:
With the Young Lords or...?
JJ:
Yeah.
CL:
Well then, [00:28:00] of course, I met [Panama?] at the time. I met [Augie
Robles?]. I finally got to meet [Yoruba?] because he was in China during the
time that I had --
JJ:
(inaudible) China at that time? I was in China too.
CL:
With him?
JJ:
No, no. In the late ’70s.
CL:
Oh, okay. I met [Richie?]. But before my mom went (laughs) to get me, because
she didn’t know where I was, she knew that I was with the Young Lords. So she
took the police to the national headquarters in El Barrio to demand that they
return her daughter. And, of course, they didn’t know that I was in the Bronx.
They didn’t even know who I was. So they must have had a shock when they
saw the police. (laughs)
JJ:
So she thought that the Young Lords [00:29:00] were taking you hostage or
something like that?
CL:
I guess. Yeah.
JJ:
Okay. Now you said, Richie. What do you mean you called him Richie? Richie
[Bredas?]
CL:
Richie Bredas. Yeah. (inaudible) Well, I knew that Richard was a teacher, that
21
�he taught typing. I know that he was the minister of defense or information.
JJ:
I think he was information minister.
CL:
Yeah. Minister of information. Yoruba, I was, like, in awe of him, you know.
You’ve gone to China.
JJ:
You were in awe? What do you recall? I mean, he went to China?
CL:
Yeah. I remember him being a very, very serious individual. I had met [Mickey
Melendez?]. We had gotten involved with, or they were --
JJ:
What about Mickey? What are your thoughts about Mickey?
CL:
Mickey was very serious man too.
JJ:
Okay. Very serious?
CL:
You know, [00:30:00] they were all very serious. (laughs) Like, “Ooh!” Then
again, I was only 16 years old. I was so young.
JJ:
You met Augie, you said?
CL:
Augie, we became the best of friends.
JJ:
What do you mean (inaudible)?
CL:
She became my (Spanish). [Auga?]. I liked her a lot. She was very staunch in
her beliefs. Richie and her were together at that time.
JJ:
They were living together in the --
CL:
Yeah. Uh-huh. I met [Iris Morales?].
JJ:
Thoughts about her?
CL:
Iris Morales, I used to like her a lot back then too, and, I mean, I still like her
today. [Valerie?], [David Perez?].
JJ:
(inaudible)
22
�CL:
Did you ever meet David Perez?
JJ:
David Perez? Yeah. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
CL:
Okay, well, he was -- his companion.
JJ:
(inaudible) Did they call it (inaudible) [00:31:00] or...?
CL:
At that time, we called it, yeah, companion.
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
Yeah, we didn’t... Yeah, exactly.
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
Yeah, no. No one said wife or husband. You said, you know, companion.
JJ:
(inaudible) At Chicago, we had an underground [training for people trying to get?]
(inaudible) collective, but we didn’t use companions. We used brother and sister
(inaudible)
CL:
Oh, okay. Mm-hmm. We used brother and sister too, but, I mean, in terms of
relationships, you know, “That’s my companion.”
JJ:
I gotta tell you (inaudible) term.
CL:
(laughs) It’s a good term.
JJ:
(inaudible) So tell me something about Tony (inaudible)
CL:
Tony.
JJ:
Yeah.
CL:
Like I said, I met Tony --
JJ:
What impression (inaudible)
CL: Well, I found Tony to be a very handsome young man at the time, smart, [00:32:00]
and he was very friendly. And so we sparked a relationship that lasted five
23
�years. I have two children by him.
JJ:
What are the names of your kids?
CL:
My oldest son’s name is [Damien Copeland?]. My second son is [Eric
Copeland?].
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
Eric Copeland.
JJ:
Eric Copeland? Do they live here with you?
CL:
No, they live in (inaudible)
JJ:
What kind of work (inaudible)
CL:
Who, Tony? I believe Tony works for a union. I don’t recall. I mean, we have,
really, no contact, and he’s into some sort of a --
JJ:
Oh, you’re not together?
CL:
No. Oh, no. No, no. Our relationship lasted five years.
JJ:
Five years?
CL:
Yeah.
JJ:
So, how (inaudible)
CL:
Oh, well, that was 15 years ago. I had met someone else [00:33:00] when I was
38.
JJ:
You’re with someone else now.
CL:
Yeah. Uh-huh.
JJ:
Okay. (inaudible) 15 years ago, you (inaudible)
CL:
Uh-huh.
JJ:
(inaudible)
24
�CL:
My life is good here. I’m into more spiritualism, more --
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
Yeah.
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
No. No, no.
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
More the way of the yogi, the way of the monk.
JJ:
(inaudible) what, the yogi, the...?
CL:
More into working on my inner self so my externals could be in a better place.
JJ:
Okay (inaudible) I’m just kind of trying to think of a way to understand (inaudible)
[00:34:00] So this is not like (inaudible)
CL:
No. It’s more like Tai Chi, more connecting yourself with the universe, with
divinity, with the light.
JJ:
(inaudible) something like that? That’s the only thing I know.
CL:
Okay.
JJ:
So it’s more like that? Something similar to that?
CL:
It’s called the fourth way if you’ve ever...
JJ:
I’m not familiar with it. (inaudible)
CL:
Uh-huh. Well, you can Google it.
JJ:
So can you explain what (inaudible) fourth way or...?
CL:
Well, yeah. It’s more on working on yourself so you can be a better being so
your being can grow. Because once your being grows, then everything around
you will also change and grow.
25
�JJ:
Sort of like [00:35:00] (inaudible)
CL:
Oh, he needs five minutes? (Spanish)
JJ:
(inaudible)
P1:
Well, I mean, you guys sound --
(break in audio)
P1:
And whenever you’re ready.
JJ:
You could tell me a little bit about Richie. We were talkin’ ’bout Richie Bredas.
CL:
Well, Richie, Richie was always laughing. A person who was a very happy,
happy individual. Always laughing, cracking jokes, and serious as well and very
smart. Very, very smart and people respected him. He carried that because he
gave respect. [00:36:00] Didn’t matter how old you were, ’cause I was a young
whippersnapper. And a very, very giving individual. I had gotten the opportunity
to live with him, his companion Augie at the time, and Tony, who was my
companion at the time. And we shared a lot of good, good times. And again, he
was very, very, very good.
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
Well, he was with Auga at the time.
JJ:
Oh, okay.
CL:
And I was the Tony, and we made up the collective.
JJ:
So you were living together in the same collective?
CL:
Uh-huh. Exactly.
JJ:
He was a giving person and --
CL:
Always laughing.
26
�JJ:
’Cause he was information deputy?
CL:
Uh-huh.
JJ:
So [he was in the?] --
CL:
And he worked hard and he had a good job. He had gone to college and --
JJ:
What kind of work (inaudible)
CL:
A teacher.
JJ:
He was a teacher? Okay. So he was a teacher, he was a Young Lord.
CL:
Uh-huh.
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
Yes. [00:37:00]
JJ:
So he was doing community work at the same time?
CL:
That’s one thing about the Lords back then. That we were always in the
community. People knew us. People bought the (Spanish). They knew us. We
went door to door. You know, it wasn’t, like, an organization that locked itself up
and talked a lot of rhetoric, which that did happen later on.
JJ:
But not at that time?
CL:
Not at that time.
JJ:
At that time it was (inaudible)
CL:
Out in the street and we were organizing.
JJ:
Talking to people in the neighborhood?
CL:
Exactly. And Richie was involved in organizing a lot of students.
JJ:
Students?
CL:
Yes.
27
�JJ:
What school was he working at?
CL:
Well, at the time, he was still a typing teacher. So you know, at -- and what was
that organization’s name? [00:38:00] Aspira.
JJ:
Aspira, Aspira. So he was worked with Aspira, with the schooling groups and
that?
CL:
And he had recruited a lotta students as well.
JJ:
He definitely did a lotta work (inaudible)
CL:
He did a lot of work, yes.
JJ:
(inaudible) worked with Aspira.
CL:
Yeah.
JJ:
So we were talking also about PRRWO (inaudible) Puerto Rican (inaudible)
CL:
It was called Puerto Rican Worker Revolutionary Organization.
JJ:
And who were the leaders of that?
CL:
[Gloria Fontanez?].
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
Yes. The Central Committee.
JJ:
Where did she come from? Oh, the Central Committee was part of them?
CL:
Yeah. It was still, everyone there except Yoruba, [Juan Gonzales?], David.
Okay. So the Central Committee consisted of Gloria [00:39:00] Fontanez, her
cousin, [Carmen Cruz?], I believe Gloria’s husband, [Don Right?], who we all,
then later on, believed that he was an agent.
JJ:
Why did you believe he was an agent?
CL:
Well, I mean, you know, I don’t have like documentation --
28
�JJ:
[You mean a rat?]? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
CL:
-- but everything that happened once this individual came into the picture just led
to all of that. The Young Lords then felt that they needed to organize the
workers. We needed to become a more of the workers organization than just a
community, lumpenproletariat organization.
JJ:
So they wanted get away from the [metropolitan?]?
CL:
Yes. And so we --
JJ:
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
CL:
-- needed to be more ideological. And so we needed to be more ideological, we
needed to be more Lenin, more Stalin, more Mao. And in order to do that, we
had to change our name, [00:40:00] and so they did. They changed the Young
Lord’s Party to the Puerto Rican Workers Revolutionary organization, PRRWO.
And so, at the time, we linked up with a group called the MLN from Chicago. And
they would come to New York and we would have these crazy debates. I mean,
these seminars with these crazy, crazy debates. And when I mean crazy, it
wasn’t about I’m gonna teach you and you’re going to teach you, no, I’m gonna
put you down and you’re gonna put me down. It looked more like a war to me.
JJ:
Criticism and self-criticism?
CL:
It was more criticism than self-criticism. (laughs)
JJ:
I know, that’s what -- you know, the (inaudible) something similar. That’s what
they were explaining to us.
CL:
So then that didn’t work. You know, MLN went their way.
JJ:
So that’s Movimiento por [00:41:00] Liberación Nacional?
29
�CL:
Uh-huh. That didn’t last too long. They went their way. PRRWO went their way.
Still looking for affiliation. Then they found the Revolutionary Union, R Union.
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
Majority white organization. And that’s when this individual Don Right comes into
the picture.
JJ:
So he mighta just been a member of Revolutionary Union.
CL:
Yeah.
JJ:
Maybe he wasn’t an agent, he was just...?
CL:
I don’t know. It could be.
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
It could not be.
JJ:
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
CL:
All I know is a lot of crazy stuff started to happen after that. We would go to
meetings. We no longer were in the community. So we had severed the ties
with the community.
JJ:
Okay. What does that mean, that you were no longer in the community?
CL:
We were more in meetings debating with one another, with each other, about
how wrong you are, how right you are. [00:42:00] And then it became very rigid.
If you differed, then you were under attack. You could not differ because then
you became the oddball, and you were under attack. And those were the things
that were happening to me back then.
JJ:
But if can hold that thought first.
CL:
Yeah, okay.
30
�JJ:
(inaudible) you became rigid. The whole (inaudible). But now, you said that you
were no longer with the community.
CL:
Yes. That meant that we no longer went to the community to organize. We no
longer had those --
JJ:
You weren’t going door to door. You weren’t doing any --
CL:
Or those health clinics or the --
JJ:
Were you doing any programs or anything?
CL:
No programs. We weren’t doing anything.
JJ:
Just talking?
CL:
Just talkin’. Exactly. You know --
JJ:
Did you get into the --
CL:
-- still building the structure of the --
JJ:
-- about Marx and Lenin? Did you get into the (inaudible)
CL:
Exactly. And that...
JJ:
Because before, I mean, the Young Lords -- I read books about Marx and Lenin.
We (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
CL:
No, no, but this was --
JJ:
But now it was all Marx and Lenin and nothing --
CL:
Nothing else.
JJ:
-- about the community.
CL:
And if anyone disagreed --
JJ:
That was just a different line.
CL:
Mm-hmm. [00:43:00] And if anybody disagree, or when they had these heavy-
31
�duty debates in the Central Committee and they purged someone. You know,
like when they purged Juan Gonzalez, when they purged -JJ:
They purged Juan Gonzalez too?
CL:
Yeah. Yeah.
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
And they purged Yoruba. So Yoruba left --
JJ:
Yoruba they purged (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
CL:
Iris had to leave because she was the wife, and when they purged David Perez --
JJ:
The wife of who?
CL:
Of Yoruba.
JJ:
Yoruba (inaudible)
CL:
Yeah, at the time.
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
No. (inaudible)
JJ:
So that all started (inaudible)
CL:
Yoruba. And then, when they purged David Perez, Valerie had to go, too.
JJ:
So wait a minute, they were purging all the Central Committee?
CL:
Anyone who disagreed.
JJ:
But it looks like David and Yoruba and --
CL:
And so what happen--
JJ:
-- people like that, they were Central Committee members. They were purging
the Central Committee.
CL:
And so what [00:44:00] started to happen in the body of the organization, most of
32
�the members started to leave because then it was no longer that zest, that
passion to go to the community, you know, to become one with the community.
JJ:
Let me get this. Anybody that kind of was helping the Young Lords (inaudible) as
leaders of the Young Lords were being purged at that time?
CL:
Can you repeat that?
JJ:
Most of the leadership was being purged?
CL:
Yes. Yes, yes.
JJ:
The old leadership of the Young Lords.
CL:
And so back with Richie, Richie was on the Central Committee. And at the time,
we thought that was the right thing. So yeah, we started to even mimic or even
believe some of these things until it just continued to happen.
JJ:
Some of these things? What were they saying? What were they putting forth?
CL:
Okay, like, let’s see. [00:45:00] It’s just like, let’s say, for instance, if at the
moment they believed that we were not a party, we were an organization. That
became the hot issue. Or which way were we gonna suppose to organize the
factory workers?
JJ:
Okay, hold on a second. So we were not a party, and we needed to become a
party?
CL:
No, an organization.
JJ:
We need to become an organization. (inaudible) back to globalization? Okay.
All right. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
CL:
I don’t know. See, because remember, now, this is the Central Committee and
these meetings, you really didn’t know because, you know, this was like --
33
�JJ:
The Central Committee was here and you were here?
CL:
Yeah, exactly. (laughs) We were here and they were up there.
JJ:
(Spanish)
CL:
Uh-huh. (Spanish) And now that you [00:46:00] talk about that, Gloria Fontanez,
I grew up with her family. I didn’t know her.
JJ:
Yeah, what was she like?
CL:
Okay. Well, let me just say. I grew up with her family. Her brother was my best
friend when I was 14, 15 years old in the Lower East Side. We hung out in the
same places. When I get to the Young Lords, then I find out that she’s related to
these people that I used to go visit her mom, eat at her house, you know, share,
and you all her brothers and sisters, but I did not know her ’cause she had left.
She was way older than they were and she had left way before I came into the
picture. Gloria was --
JJ:
But what were her brothers and sisters like?
CL:
They were really nice. They all knew how to dance. That was something.
JJ:
Lotta dancing (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
CL:
In the Lower East Side, you had to know how to dance some mambo.
JJ:
(inaudible) Oh, mambo. You didn’t do [split?]? You didn’t split?
CL:
No, no. Mambo. You had to dance Latin. You know?
JJ:
(inaudible) did the mambo (inaudible)
CL:
They were really good people, humble people.
JJ:
Humble people? (inaudible)
CL:
Yeah. I used to love her brother [00:47:00] dearly, dearly, and he got caught up
34
�with the drugs as well.
JJ:
One of her brothers, Gloria Fontanez?
CL:
Yeah, Gloria.
JJ:
So she was really, like, community (inaudible)
CL:
Huh?
JJ:
She was really before that community?
CL:
Yes, yeah.
JJ:
And then just get into (Spanish). (laughter) Nah, I’m just joking. I mean, ’cause
the spiritualism (inaudible). So she got really involved in the ideological?
CL:
Yes. I mean, to the point that when they would do this thing, it was so insulting.
And that started to turn me off. I would say to myself, “Oh my gosh, so what is it?
You can’t express your opinion, your view? If you have a different opinion or
something then that means you’re the bad guy?” So they had placed my
husband, or my ex-husband, Tony in the Central Committee. And honestly --
JJ:
Of who?
CL:
Of the PRRWO. [00:48:00] And I really thought that he wasn’t ready for Central
Committee stuff. So I was wondering what was going on. But then again, okay,
fine. He and Richie were arguing over something, and he never even said to me
what, but they were in real hot water. So one day he comes home from a
meeting and he says to me, “Things are really hot.” And I kind of felt it every time
I would go to a meeting. And now, this time, Richie is married to [Diana
Caballero?].
JJ:
(inaudible)
35
�CL:
So, you know, things were not going well in these meetings. And you kind of,
like, sense when things are not right. But my husband comes home and he says
--
JJ:
What do mean you sense it? What are you sensing?
CL:
Hostility.
JJ:
You mean instead --
CL:
And afraid.
JJ:
of friendship, hostility, [00:49:00] fear?
CL:
Yeah, among the [conjoint?].
JJ:
Among the conjoint? They’re scared (inaudible)
CL:
Scared. Afraid to voice an opinion.
JJ:
Of what? They would be ridiculed, [but not included?]
CL:
Ridiculed. Well, no, not yet. Well, I never thought that things would ever get to
that point.
JJ:
So they were being ridiculed for that kind of thing?
CL:
I would say shut down.
JJ:
Shut down. They were being (inaudible)
CL:
Exactly. Then you became the outsider.
JJ:
So you’re saying that (inaudible)
CL:
Exact on that. You know, you’re dangerous. Where you coming from?
JJ:
Are you an agent or something?
CL:
Exactly.
JJ:
So the agents are asking the agents, “Are you an agent?” The agent is saying,
36
�“Are you an agent?”
CL:
Yeah. It was all part of COINTEL.
JJ:
I don’t know if they were agents. I’m just saying that.
CL:
Yeah, I know. Well, but they were doing the job that COINTEL wanted to be
done. So anyway, [00:50:00] my husband comes home and he says to me,
“Things are not well in the Central Committee, and I’m a real hot water because I
don’t agree.” He said, “Me and Richie are in hot water because we don’t agree
with certain things.” And I already knew that Richie was not happy because he
was the not happy person that he used to be when I met him and throughout the
years that I had known him. So we used to have meetings on Thursday. So that
Thursday, no, Wednesday, my husband comes home and says to me, “I’ve been
purged from the Central Committee.”
JJ:
[Told him to come home?]
CL:
He tell me that he was purged.
JJ:
Did he say why?
CL:
He didn’t say why. He just said, “’cause I was not in agreement with what was
going on.” So Thursday we were supposed to have a meeting with the conjoint,
[00:51:00] and I was going to attend, Diana, and some other members of this
committee. But something came over me. There’s such a bad feeling, and I
said, “You know what, Tony? I’m not going to go to this meeting.” I’m gonna call
these people, and I’m going to pack everything that they ever gave me, and I’m
gonna tell them that they can come and pick it up downstairs.” Because they
already knew that since they had purged him, I was going to be purged to
37
�because it had happened with Yoruba and Iris, it happened with David and
Valerie. There was already a pattern. So I didn’t go. In not going, Diana went to
the meeting. So she gets kidnapped at this meeting.
JJ:
Diana Caballero, you’re talking about?
CL:
Diana Caballero.
JJ:
She’s kidnapped at the meeting?
CL:
Well they take her against her will to keep her against her will to keep her
hostage [00:52:00] in somebody’s apartment, her and Richie.
JJ:
So they had, like, [the own deal?] or...?
CL:
Well, you see, since I didn’t go to that meeting, and I know that if I would have
gone to that meeting, they would’ve taken me too.
JJ:
But I mean they took her hostage, so in other words, [they’re posted?] in their
own safehouse.
CL:
Yes, exactly.
JJ:
[Gone forever?] or whatever.
CL:
Exactly.
JJ:
(inaudible) well-organized group to have a deal like that.
CL:
Yes.
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
Yes. And, and I’m talking about people that Richie knew for years that slept in
his home, that ate his food.
JJ:
So these are people that Richie knew? So they were not (inaudible) these were
just people that (Spanish)?
38
�CL:
Yeah. They were very -- Exactly.
JJ:
(Spanish)
CL:
But yes, they were (Spanish), they lost their mind. They really lost their mind.
JJ:
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
CL:
Because then they tortured him. They turned cigarettes off from him. They beat
him. You don’t do that to someone [00:53:00] who...
JJ:
But then if they’re like that, somebody’s getting stuff [in their head?].
CL:
Exactly. Richie became the traitor. He became the bad guy.
JJ:
Somebody’s feeding them -- you don’t know who?
CL:
Exactly. Well, COINTEL.
JJ:
Because most of the other people were people, they grew up together (inaudible)
CL:
Yeah.
JJ:
Somebody else has been (inaudible)
CL:
Exactly.
JJ:
And they’re part of (inaudible)
CL:
Well, no. They were not there. No.
JJ:
Oh, they’re not (inaudible)?
CL:
These were our own people.
JJ:
Our own people from the (inaudible) So somebody’s interested in being
(inaudible)
CL:
Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So, I’m devastated because now these are new
people, but then they had also recruited some new people that we had just barely
knew. And I had just given birth to my second son, he must have been eight
39
�months old. So I got a call from a female, one of them, stating to me that
whatever they gave me for a baby shower, that they wanted it back. [00:54:00]
Well, my street stuff from the Lower East Side, of course, came out. I was like,
“You can take it all. And don’t you ever...”
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
Exactly. “Don’t you ever come here again. Ever again.” And so this was April
1976. Heartbroken, young girl from 16. I’m 21 years old now. Two kids. No
direction because the direction was -- my life was the Young Lords. I go to Auga.
Auga was working in Gouverneur Hospital on the Lower East Side. And she was
my --
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
(inaudible) She was my (Spanish). Someone that I loved. Loved her for many,
many years, respected her. And it was so important for me to tell her [00:55:00]
and to let her know that what they were saying was not true. Because then what
they did was, is that they wrote this article in Palante stating that Richie Perez,
Diana Caballero, [Felix Flores?], [Lydia Flores?], Tony Copeland, and Carmen
Copeland, that’s how I was known back then, were meeting to overthrow the
Central Committee. In the five years that I was in the Young Lords, not once did
these three couples ever meet together alone. Ever. And never to talk about
overthrowing the Central Committee. They had, or so they said because this is
what came out in the Palante article, Lydia Flores, [00:56:00] she was the one
that came forward and said that we were meeting.
JJ:
You were what?
40
�CL:
Meeting. That the three couples --
JJ:
Lydia Flores (inaudible)
CL:
-- were meeting to -- Uh-huh. And meanwhile, this young woman at the time, we
used to share. They had a child, we had a child, we used to share, we used to
go to the park together, we used cook dinners on Sundays together.
JJ:
Lydia Flores?
CL:
And her husband Felix.
JJ:
So she grew up with everybody else?
CL:
She was in student Aspira, part of the --
JJ:
Student Aspira, but she didn’t grow up with anybody else?
CL:
Yes and no. Because in the beginning was Aspira, and then later on, it was the
PRRWO. Felix did, he also came from Aspira, but I think he had more of the
Young Lords because --
JJ:
He was Huracan’s brother.
CL:
-- Huracan’s brother.
JJ:
Yeah. Felix (inaudible)
CL:
Okay, Felix.
JJ:
But not Lydia.
CL:
Not Lydia.
JJ:
(inaudible) [00:57:00]
CL:
Yes.
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
But, you know, these are things that hurt a lot, I mean, because when that
41
�happened, my husband and I, we split up right after that.
JJ:
But let me just, you know, say ’cause we had members in our group that we grew
up with. Right? (inaudible) that doesn’t matter when -- whether they grew up or
not.
CL:
Anyway, getting back to Auga. I wanted her to know that this was not true, that
we were not doing that. So I go to Gouverneur. I muster up the nerve to go and
see her. I was just afraid of her doing what she did. Because when she seen me
-- I go, she was working in emergency. When I go there, I’m like, “Augie, I’m
here to tell you that it’s not true. [00:58:00] You never even asked me. Does that
matter to you?” She just turned and just walked away.
JJ:
What was her name again?
CL:
Auga [Goga?] (inaudible)
JJ:
She didn’t answer you?
CL:
She didn’t, no.
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
She stood with the PRRWO. You know, she stood with them ’til the end. ’til the
end.
JJ:
Because you had purges of the members (inaudible)
CL:
Said I wasn’t going to stay with -- You know, okay, I got purged and everything,
when my husband w-- I had already decided I could not do this anymore. You
know, I could not be in an organization that was like that. This was not the
Young Lords.
JJ:
It was not the original Young Lords that (inaudible) and you were very scared?
42
�[Marxist, Leninist?]
CL:
Doing horrible things, no. No, you don’t go around beating people like that. No,
no. You just don’t. After that, to get a hold of Richie and Diana [00:59:00] was
like mission impossible. Because, again, we wanted to write something in
response to what had happened, and we did. We did do it. I don’t even have a
copy of that ’cause after, you know, we moved --
JJ:
But more or less, what did it say?
CL:
That it was not true. Oh my god, we took Gloria Fontanez and Carmen Cruz,
and we also like dragged them in the street. You know, we were so upset with
them.
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
How dare they?
JJ:
What kind of (inaudible)
CL:
Okay, you know, several things were not true.
JJ:
These are just feelings or...?
CL:
No, we had facts.
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
But I just can’t, like, you know. But it was a pretty large, you know, and I’m still
trying to locate that pamphlet so I can read it and refresh my memory in what had
happened.
JJ:
But basically, you were [01:00:00] saying what? They’re not relating to the
people or...?
CL:
That we were, that the turn that the Young Lords Party had taken was not a
43
�correct turn.
JJ:
It was not a (inaudible)
CL:
That we had criticized so many groups in the movement.
JJ:
The turn of going to work with the workers?
CL:
The turn of changing its name PRRWO and divorcing itself from the workers and
the community ’cause we were not doing proletarian organizing or anything like
that. We were stuck in rooms doing (inaudible), you know, I don’t agree with you,
you don’t agree with me, so I’ll kick your ass and you’ll kick mine. That’s what it
was all about.
JJ:
(inaudible) saying that that was (inaudible)
CL:
But then throughout the years, after I left and of course after, you know, you can’t
have an organization with one person. So you’ve got to dissolve the -- because
eventually other people who have been there from the beginning, like [Miriam?],
[01:01:00] had to leave too. And then throughout the years I ran into her, I ran
into other people, I ran into people who hurt Richie, who regretted it, and they
were, like, in a frenzy at the time.
JJ:
What were they saying about Richie? What were they trying (inaudible)
CL:
During the time that they beat them up?
JJ:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, what is the beating? We didn’t (inaudible)
CL:
Oh, okay. Well they turned cigarettes off on him, they hit him, they kept him
against his will.
JJ:
Did you see this or...?
CL:
No, ’cause then Richie came out, and Richie told us. And the persons who did
44
�this.
JJ:
So they put cigarettes on him? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
CL:
Yes, turned the cigarette off on his skin. And the person who did it, he came out
and he said it. He regretted it.
JJ:
Who was that?
CL:
Oh, gee, I don’t know if I should.
JJ:
Say it? That’s all right. Okay, you don’t -- It’s not important. Okay. You don’t
want to say an identity? (inaudible) [01:02:00]
CL:
But Richie forgave that person.
P2:
(inaudible) Panama. Panama.
CL:
(Spanish) Richie didn’t --
P2:
I’m sorry. For the record, Panama is [still another thing?].
CL:
We’ll talk about it off camera. (laughs)
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
But then, you know, after that Richie -- we finally was able to get in contact with
Richie, and he was very, very scared and very weary because his life was in
danger. But we were able to meet and we wrote that pamphlet. We were very
happy and satisfied with it. And then after that, everybody just tried to pick up the
pieces and move on.
JJ:
So people kind of got together later on?
CL:
Right after the purge. Okay, they took Richie maybe about a month after, and
then about another month when Richie came back and he finally was willing
[01:03:00] to meet with us.
45
�JJ:
And met with different people [and that?]?
CL:
Mm-hmm.
JJ:
So what happened to Gloria and Auga?
CL:
Well, Gloria, she kept on --
JJ:
Gloria and (inaudible)
CL:
Then Carmen Cruz left, and she went on with her personal life. And Gloria, I
think she started drinking a lot. I do know that I ran into her several times
throughout the years. The first time I run into her, it was in a dance place called
[Justine’s?].
JJ:
What is it?
CL:
Justine’s, it’s a Latin joint that they had back in --
JJ:
In the Lower East Side (inaudible)?
CL:
No, that was on 38th Street and 8th Avenue.
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
I’m in the bathroom and I’m just, like, I’m there. When I turn, I see her coming.
When she seen me, she was, like, the smile. [01:04:00] I looked at her, my body
just became so rigid, and my face dropped. She knew right then and there
’cause her smile went from smiling to frowning. And the energy, boom, was like,
don’t you dare. I have nothing for you, nothing at all. And so I walked out. The
next time I run into her we were -- My husband and I, we were invited to the John
Leguizamo show, when he had the show on television, but we went to the TV
show.
JJ:
John (inaudible)
46
�CL:
John Leguizamo. And so when we’re there, when we turn, she’s there with the
daughter, oh my God, the whole family. There was the daughter and friends.
And so I had to explain to my husband [01:05:00] who she was. So I didn’t make
it easy for her. I just kept going pss. (gestures indicating whispering) (laughs)
The third time I run into her, we were doing some work to free the political
prisoner Dylcia and the women and the guy.
JJ:
(inaudible) prisoner of what?
CL:
From the FALN.
JJ:
The FALN? (inaudible)
CL:
We were at the Puerto Rican Day Parade, and we had, like, this side table. So I
decided to go to the store to get a bottle of water. So I got my water, I’m coming
out, and who’s coming in? But she is with some guy. I don’t know what she
expected, for me to hold the door or something, but I slammed the door in her
face. And the guy looked at me like (makes a face) and she was like, “Just leave
well enough alone.” She went in, I went out, [01:06:00] and that was the end of
that. I’ve never seen her again.
JJ:
(inaudible) proactive and everything?
CL:
Yeah, she is proactive. She does poetry.
P2:
(inaudible) last time I saw her. (inaudible)
CL:
She does poetry now. People don’t know -- in fact, I have a friend. His name is
[Jeremy Delgado?], and I was on Facebook checking on his page, and he had
made a comment, and she came out. And when I seen her, of course, every
time I see her, I kind of, like, freeze. You know? So I went into her page and
47
�says, “Is that Gloria. Oh?” So I called him, and I spoke to him, and says “Listen,
you have this woman on your page.” And he says, “Yeah. She’s a great poet, a
great writer.” I’m like, “Well let me tell you a little story about Miss Gloria
Fontanez.” Okay? He was in total shock that this woman partook in the downfall
of the Young Lords Party, and how she [01:07:00] helped create a situation to
hurt so many innocent people. All in what? You know?
JJ:
(inaudible) Is there anything else (inaudible) community?
CL:
His name is [Miguel Vasquez?].
JJ:
Miguel Vasquez?
CL:
Uh-huh.
JJ:
And what [does Miguel do?].
CL:
Miguel is a English teacher for elementary school.
JJ:
How did you meet him? What was that (inaudible)
CL:
I met him in New York on the train.
JJ:
Oh, on the train?
CL:
Yeah.
JJ:
So you guys moved and you live here.
CL:
Well, we met 18 years ago. And so, two strong-headed people. The beginning
was very [01:08:00] hard for us. And so we decided to part ways in the
beginning, and he came to Puerto Rico. And when he came to see his parents,
his parents were old, and so he decided to stay. I’ve always wanted to live in
Puerto Rico, and I’m like, “Gee, if I don’t move to Puerto Rico, I’m going to lose
my chance to, you know --
48
�JJ:
Be together.
CL:
-- have a relationship with this man. And so I decided -- and my kids were
already grown, out making their own life. And I said, “Well, let me move to
Puerto Rico.” And I did. And here I am.
JJ:
So what does he do? (inaudible)
CL:
He’s a teacher. English teacher.
JJ:
Oh, yeah. English teacher. (inaudible)
CL:
Well, yeah, he was active in New York with, how you say (Spanish).
P2:
The United Bronx Parents.
CL:
The United Bronx Parents.
P2:
(inaudible) [01:09:00]
CL:
Very nice guy. Very decent man, taught me a lot of things that, when you grow
up in a place like the Lower East Side, you tend to grow up with missing certain
things like morals. And, you know, when you also are rebelling, you tend to
move some of these things in your life because you’re willing to -- you’re
rebellious, you’ll rebel against anything and everything.
JJ:
So do you think we made an impact at all in -- you guys made an impact in New
York or...?
CL:
Oh, absolutely, yes. Oh, yeah. You know, it’s so funny. Moving to Puerto Rico, I
couldn’t find the kind of work that I did in New York and the salary, so I decided
to work in restaurants because they gave me the salary or the way [01:10:00]
that I liked to live. So that’s what I’ve done in the last 18 years, or 15 years, here
in Puerto Rico. I’ve worked in restaurants. So this youngster several years ago,
49
�he says to me, I did a paper on the Young Lords. Well, we were talking about
the Young Lords, and I’m like, “You know, I used to be a Lord.” Oh my god, he
was so amazed. And he says to me, “You know, I did a paper on the Young
Lords.” He was excited. Oh my god. And I’m like, “Well, I want to read your
paper.” And one thing led to another. And I’ve never read his paper, but -- and I
did promise that I wanted you to meet him. And the kid is only 19 years old.
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
And look, he in Puerto Rico...
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
Yeah.
JJ:
Anything else that you want to add (inaudible) [landmark?] [01:11:00]
CL:
Well, to finalize, the experience, the people that I’ve met, what I’ve learned
because, again, I didn’t go to high school. And my education came from the
Lords.
JJ:
Did you get a GED or anything?
CL:
Yeah, I did get a GED, but after all the Lords, then I tried, you know, started to
find my way. Because, again, you know, when you’re 16 and you’re 21, it’s an
impact.
JJ:
But that’s (inaudible) you seem to be (inaudible) the Lords for them teaching you
about life --
CL:
The reading, understanding.
JJ:
You started reading?
CL:
Yeah. We had to read Lenin, Marx, Stalin. So you have to be at a certain level
50
�to understand, you know, and read this.
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
[In there?].
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
Yeah. In fact, I never went to [01:12:00] take classes for my GED, and I passed
it the first shot. When I went back to school, and I took a test, they could not
believe that I didn’t go to high school. So yeah, of course it impacted. I learned
a lot. And one thing I did say that after that happened, I would never join another
group blindly, ever. If I were to join a group, I would definitely have to know
exactly where they’re coming from, and I would have to truly believe. That’s why,
when I left, that day that I told Tony, “I’m gonna call them and I’m gonna leave.” I
no longer believed in the PRRWO.
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
And I still have good friends. Panama, Richie --
JJ:
(inaudible)
CL:
And I’ve met you, you know, who started it all.
JJ:
(inaudible)
END OF AUDIO FILE
51
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7e59af5b7c5d0ea787e9221d510757b2.mp4
548a6e755aa65307ea2dbbac5d4b3686
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives.
The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
spa
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-65
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
2012-2017
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Título
Spanish language Title entry
Carmen de Leon vídeo entrevista y biografía
Descripción
Spanish language Description entry
Carmen De Leon es una Young Lord que creció en la cuidad de Nueva York y ahora vive en Loiza, Puerto Rico. Soportará fuerte por mujeres, Señora De Leon trabajo cerca con el Young Lord Richie Pérez en programas de educación para jóvenes. En su entrevista comparte sus memorias sobre los días que trabajo con los Young Lords. Señora De Leon habla de cómo los Young Lords fueron infiltrados por agentes del gobierno y como “idolología” fue utilizado para nublar y hacer divisiones dentro del movimiento. Esto también incluye soportando unos que tomen poder y descreditando los líderes. Con vivacidad describe como los miembros fueron tomados como rehén y como ella misma fue purgada de los Young Lords. Su entrevista nos da una prospectiva importante en cómo estos tácticos fueron pasados y últimamente destruyo las conexiones dentro de los Young Lords y el barrio.
Sujetos
Spanish language Subject terms
Young Lords (Organización)
Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos
Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Narrativas personales
Justicia social
Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales
Source
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-65_Leon_Carmen_de
Title
A name given to the resource
Carmen de Leon video interview and transcript
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Leon, Carmen de
Description
An account of the resource
Carmen de Leon is a Young Lord who grew up in New York City and today lives in Loíza, Puerto Rico. A strong advocate for women, Ms. de Leon worked closely with Young Lord Richie Pérez on a range of education and youth centered programs. In her oral history, she recalls her days working with the Young Lords. Ms. de Leon discusses how the Young Lords were infiltrated by government agents and how “ideology” was utilized to factionalize and create divisions within the Movement, including encouraging takeovers, discrediting, and purging leaders. She vividly describes members being taken hostage as well as how she herself was purged from the Young Lords. Her interview provides important insights into how these repressive tactics were carried out and how they ultimately destroyed the connections between the Young Lords and the barrio base.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives
Social justice
Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-05-14
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e87275e168bfd60ea900edbe367447af.pdf
9b5802dddc4798eaefb9be298b3c4f9f
PDF Text
Text
Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: Carmen Garcia
Interviewer: Jose Jimenez
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 11/16/2012
Runtime: 02:07:23
Biography and Description
Oral history of Carmen Garcia, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on November 16, 2012 about the
Young Lords in Lincoln Park.
"The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the
history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later,
the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the
premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and
�political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban
renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos,
working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same
families and activists also risk losing their history.
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b5bdfe2b6addf5fb9d2fc92d3aa98794.mp4
a9403062059ac2345b1158bcae31a1a6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives.
The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
spa
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-65
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
2012-2017
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Título
Spanish language Title entry
Carmen Garcia vídeo entrevista y biografía
Descripción
Spanish language Description entry
La historia oral de Carmen Garcia, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 11/16/2012 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park.
Sujetos
Spanish language Subject terms
Young Lords (Organización)
Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos
Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales
Justicia social
Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago
Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales
Relaciones raciales
Conflicto social
Identitad cultural
Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capítulo
Source
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-65_Garcia_Carmen
Title
A name given to the resource
Carmen Garcia video interview and biography
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Garcia, Carmen
Description
An account of the resource
Oral history of Carmen Garcia, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 11/16/2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jimenez, Jose, 1948-
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Mexican Americans--Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions
Race relations
Social conflict
Cultural identity
Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter
Language
A language of the resource
spa
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-11-16
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f53ca79a48a41e3dcab3a99127807a75.pdf
8931847ead2676679cd8d1a268a8df54
PDF Text
Text
Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: Carmen Rance
Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 3/30/2012
Biography and Description
When Carmen F. Rance’s family first came to Chicago from Puerto Rico, she lived at the Water Hotel
then moved to Lincoln Park where she grew up. She joined the Young Lords through the Breakfast for
Children Program, waking up early morning after morning and volunteering to cook home-style meals
for elementary school children before they attended school in the mornings. Her family owned a large
apartment building on the corner of Clifton and Armitage Avenue where many other Puerto Rican
families lived. There was a storefront downstairs where bands played and held parties. Her family was
active with Council Number 9 of the Caballeros de San Juan and Damas de María, at St. Teresa’s Church.
St. Teresa’s had a separate hall that was used by the Caballeros and Damas to throw larger dances,
weddings and other events. Ms. Rance recalls how St. Teresa’s became a major focal point for the
Puerto Rican community at a time when the community was growing rapidly and spreading beyond the
neighborhood dividing line of Ashland Avenue. Groups like the Young Lords, Black Eagles, Paragons,
Flaming Arrows, Imperial Aces and Queens, Continentals, Latin Eagles from Addison and Halsted, Latin
Angels from Humbolt Park, and the original Latin Kings from Wicker Park would all come to the wellorganized, safe dances run by the Damas and Caballeros at the church. There were few fights but always
lots of competition on the dance floor. Today Ms. Rance works as a case manager and has been a lay
leader in the San Lucas United Church of Christ for many years. That church also has a long history of
�community activism through leaders like Peter Early, Rev. María Lourdes Porrata, and Rev. Jorge
Morales. Together, they created the West Town Concerned Citizens’ Coalition, which has rallied against
police brutality, hunger, and promoted affordable housing. The church runs various programs including
a food pantry. On September 23rd, 2008, the Young Lords celebrated their 40th Anniversary at the
church.
�Transcript
CARMEN RANCE: Because when we -- I was part of the Young Lords, and we did, and
we did that and then people sit there and they -(break in audio)
JOSE JIMENEZ:
CR:
Okay. Say what is, you know, your name and --
My name is Carmen Flores Rance and raised in Lincoln Park, you could say. But
no, a Chicago resident. Didn’t move too far from the neighborhood. So I don’t
know anyone. Ask me question?
JJ:
Were you born -- you were born here?
CR:
I was not born here. I was born in Puerto Rico. I came here when I was five
years old, and my sister was six years old. And we -- when we first came here
from Puerto Rico, we stopped at La Salle and Superior and we lived there at La
Salle and Superior. It was a Puerto Rican -- there was quite a few Puerto Ricans
around there. And --
JJ:
What year was this?
CR:
This would have been ’56, ’57 that I came [00:01:00] because I was five and my
sister was six. And that’s when the fun started. So we were there like maybe five
years.
JJ:
And you were how old at that time?
CR:
I was -- when we moved out to, you could say Lincoln Park, because I consider
Larrabee -- I don’t know what community was that, was Lincoln Park. We moved
1
�from there. We were there for like six years. But we lived in a very small
apartment.
JJ:
Back on La Salle and Superior?
CR:
On La Salle and Superior. We lived in a third floor --
JJ:
So how old were you then when you came to --
CR:
Five. But we went straight there. We lived --
JJ:
What do you remember there?
CR:
There was -- the few Puerto Ricans that were there -- I mean, it was Puerto
Ricans, but you know, I was small. So I remember my mother and my father and
my brother. The Puerto Ricans that lived in the building, there used to be a
beauty shop there, it was Clara’s -- I don’t know if anybody remembers Clara
Byron. Clara Byron owned [00:02:00] that beauty shop on the first floor. She
used to do hair.
JJ:
You don’t remember the address --
CR:
Well, it would have been Superior. Seven -- could have been 700 West and
Superior.
JJ:
Back in the corner was the --
CR:
Right on the corner -- no, the beauty shop was in the first floor, we lived on the
third floor. So it was the building on that corner on the south and it was on the
west side of the street.
JJ:
Okay. Kitty-corner to where to Catholic Charities is today?
CR:
Right. And that wasn’t Catholic Charities. That used to be an orphanage.
Wasn’t that an orphanage in the late ’50s, early ’60s?
2
�JJ:
Yeah I’m not sure -- I’m not sure when.
CR:
Yeah it used to be an orphanage and then Catholic Charities took it over. For
everybody does not remember that there used to be an orphanage there and
then across the street from this flower shop.
JJ:
Because you lived right across the street from the flower shop. It still exists.
CR:
Yes. So we had to cross [00:03:00] to get to -- on the other side of the street.
JJ:
Okay and so there was a business there you said? A --
CR:
A beautician there, she ran a beauty shop there.
JJ:
Any other businesses that you remember?
CR:
That I remember, if you went on Clark Street, Clark and Superior, then you saw
some of the Spanish stores. But I was kind of little, so I don’t remember. But I
know there was a Spanish store there. There used to be one. There used to be
a theater there too. I forgot the name of that theater, but it was on Chicago
Avenue between Clark and Superior. It was a neighborhood theater and there
used to be a Spanish store.
JJ:
Did you all go to that theater?
CR:
I used to go to that theater. I think now it was strip joint.
JJ:
They saying [el meaito?] --
CR:
[El meaito?]. (chuckles) See, [el meaito?]. See I was right I remembered that
was. And we used to go there and see the movies. It was a little dinky little
place, but it was a -- now it’s a strip joint. It was I think a strip joint. And there
was a [00:04:00] Spanish store, and they used to sell Spanish products and stuff.
And then a little bit further down was Holy Name Cathedral. And we were part of
3
�-- we could go to catechism there. I remember Las Hijas de Maria. They would
teach the catechism class. If you remember Carmen Travieso was my catechism
teacher.
JJ:
Carmen Travieso.
CR:
Carmen Travieso. And it was a big Puerto Rican church. It was a lot of -- I think
that we had mass there, but we were very involved. Las Hijas de Maria y Los
Caballeros de San Juan. They were very involved.
JJ:
And this was ’56? 1956?
CR:
No it would be ’56, ’57, ’58. Because we went there for a couple of years. Then
from there we moved to --
JJ:
Okay. Where did you move to?
CR:
1714 North Larrabee.
JJ:
Okay, 1714 Larrabee. By Willow? [00:05:00]
CR:
Or what was that? Where was Saint Michael’s at? Sedgwick?
JJ:
I think that was Willow and Wisconsin.
CR:
Wisconsin. It was Wisconsin. Wisconsin and Larrabee.
JJ:
Or Menomonee? Was there another street called Menomonee?
CR:
There was a Menomonee there, but I can’t rem-- Mohawk. I remember Mohawk.
But we were on Larrabee. The 1700 block.
JJ:
So you went from going to mass at the Holy Name Cathedral then you were
going to Saint Michaels?
4
�CR:
Then we went to Saint Michaels. And there, we had a mass on Sunday. There
was a big -- it used to be a big community there. Because people would come
from all over to go to church at Saint Michaels.
JJ:
When you say big community, are you talking about Puerto Ricans?
CR:
The people -- yeah the Puerto Ricans that lived there plus the Puerto Ricans that
came. And I’m gonna say that they came from down North Avenue and probably
on North Avenue there was a lot of Puerto Ricans. There was a lot of Puerto
Ricans in Cabrini, and I believe that they also went to Saint Michaels. So I don’t
remember the crowd, but it was a lot [00:06:00] of Latino, lot of Puerto Rican
families there.
JJ:
So it was a big center at that time, Saint Michael’s.
CR:
Big center. And I’m trying to remember, Father Headley? Do you remember the
Father Headley from -- and other Headley was very (inaudible) to the Puerto
Rican, (Spanish), [00:06:16] spoke fluent Spanish.
JJ:
Father Kathrein.
CR:
Father Kathrein, that’s right. I forgot about him. He was there too for -- was
Father Headley from Saint Teresa’s?
JJ:
Our Immaculate Conception had mass too, I believe. Immaculate on North
Park? Immaculate Conception.
CR:
Oh yes. I remember Immaculate Conception, but I really didn’t hang out there.
My brother did.
JJ:
I wonder if it was Father [Reem?] or something like that. But I mean, that’s what I
remember. I just want to know what you remember in terms of that. So --
5
�CR:
I remember --
JJ:
So what was Saint Michael’s like?
CR:
Do you remember the Continentals from Immaculate Conception? They used to
hang out at the Immaculate Conception church. And they would throw parties
there. [00:07:00]
JJ:
Right. I remember that.
CR:
Vaguely I remember. My mother wouldn’t let us go out. Carlos got to go out but
not us. And they used to wear the pink sweaters with the big C. Was it pink or
red?
JJ:
The pink stripe was the Paragons.
CR:
The Paragons? No, but the Continentals --
JJ:
Continentals I think had -- they were red, white, and blue I believe the -- but I
think they were light blue, and then (inaudible) was a red stripe or something like
that.
CR:
Okay. But we didn’t go out. We didn’t go out because my mother wouldn’t let us
out.
JJ:
But you -- we were talking about a lot of youth at that time with different color
sweaters. Is that what you’re talking about?
CR:
Yeah.
JJ:
Or am I putting words in your mouth?
CR:
No, I’m not. The Paragons. Give me some other names. The Continental.
JJ:
The Black Eagles.
CR:
The Black Eagles.
6
�JJ:
Flaming Arrows.
CR:
Yeah.
JJ:
Imperial Aces and Queens. I don’t even think --
CR:
All them people.
JJ:
Youth.
CR:
And weren’t they mostly Puerto Ricans?
JJ:
Right. They were mostly Puerto Rican. Now were these the gangs that you
[00:08:00] call gangs today? Or --
CR:
What you call gangs today but not with the violence piece. I think they just used
to throw parties and hang out. But fighting and doing -- I didn’t see too much of
that. It was more like having parties and meeting. That’s what I remember but
my mother would not let us out. So I really didn’t know what’s going on. I just
used to see them, so.
JJ:
So but you saw them at mass too, right?
CR:
They would come to church. I’m not gonna say all of them came to church but
their families would come to church. And it was Puerto Rican families.
JJ:
What families do you remember coming to church?
CR:
Oh god. I remember the Lugos that lived in Cabrini-Green. What was the -Almestica, Almestica? Rosalia Almestica? Do you remember Rosalia
Almestica? Rosalia y Roberto [00:09:00] at the -- who was the other family?
There was a Puerto Rican family that lived in the projects. The first projects that
were built which was Cabrini which would have been like 1000 North on
Larrabee. And there was a Puerto Rican -- was a Black Puerto Rican family and
7
�those people we knew from when we first came from Puerto Rico. They were my
father’s friends. And they welcomed us to their house and then they ended up
moving into the projects. I mean those were beautiful projects and they lived on - and I never forget they lived on the 16th floor of the projects of the first CabriniGreen projects. And then when the projects started deteriorating. The elevators
were broken. People had to walk up and down them stairs. And one day, one of
his daughters got raped by thirteen Black boys in the elevator. She ended up
having a, pregnant. They didn’t want to give her an abortion. [00:10:00] And the
family moved out. That I remember. I remember the [Berrios?]. Joe Berrios
family lived in the projects. The Lugos lived in the projects.
JJ:
When you say the Berrios and Lugos. What is that just one family? Or --
CR:
These were different families with a lot of kids. They were Puerto Ricans with a
lot of kids. So it was at least six kids in each -- in their family. Almestica, they
had six. I’m trying to remember what was the -- Rosalia, Roberto, [Blitson?].
Because Blitson ended up moving with us on Armitage. No, they moved on
Halsted and Dickens. They own property on Halsted and Dickens, that family
that I was talking about. They ended up moving out of the Cabrini Projects when
their daughter was raped. And she had the baby. And her mother did not want
that baby. So this [00:11:00] girl was 12, 13 years old and she had a baby. And
the baby was never -- they gave it up for adoption. We never found out what
happened to that baby to this day.
JJ:
So now this is a Puerto Rican family. Their daughter gets raped by Black kids.
CR:
In those projects.
8
�JJ:
In those projects. Was there -- did that create any rift between the community
and --
CR:
No, I think the family moved out. I don’t know what happened after that. And the
kids did not get charged because they were minors. And no proof.
JJ:
So you said it started deteriorating. About what years did the deterioration start?
CR:
I’m gonna say ’60 -- maybe ’65? I can’t remember when Cabrini was built but
’65, between ’65 and ’69, that’s when we kind of moved -- I think we moved out
around ’68 to Armitage.
JJ:
Oh you were living there too?
CR:
No, I mean not in [00:12:00] the projects. We were living down the street.
JJ:
Down the street.
CR:
Yeah so the pro-- those first projects was like 1100 North on Larrabee, and we
were 14 or 1700 North on Larrabee. So we were like on the other side of North
Avenue. And there used to be a -- oh the Peñas. I don’t know if you remember
Paulina Peña and their family. That was a big family, and we knew them from
Puerto Rico, and they lived on North Avenue. 900 West on North Avenue. And
they were very close to --
JJ:
So they were from Guayama?
CR:
They were from Arroyo.
JJ:
From Arroyo. And you knew them from there?
CR:
And so --
JJ:
So what other towns were you representing?
9
�CR:
Guayama, Arroyo, Humacao, Mayagüez, Bayamón. So -- and we ended up
meeting that family -- the Peñas were a very big family. It was like about seven
or eight of them. And their kids are still around, and they live -- they were living
there first than we were. [00:13:00] They were living there first then we were.
That Puerto Rican family we knew. There used to a Five-and-Ten Cent Store on
North Avenue and Menomonee? Or Mohawk?
JJ:
Near there. It was near Larrabee. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah.
CR:
Remember that Five-and-Ten Cent Store?
JJ:
With the counter and everything like that.
CR:
Yeah that people would come -- Woolworths. There was a Woolworths.
JJ:
Woolworths, yeah.
CR:
There used to be counter where people would come there and eat. I remember
that.
JJ:
So you were living right around there. That section near there. And so that’s
North Avenue. So how was North Avenue in terms of Latinos at that time?
CR:
There was lot of Puerto Rican families living there. Especially down North
Avenue between I’m gonna say Clark all the way down to past Halsted was all
Puerto Rican families. And Larrabee too. All of Larrabee and Mohawk. The
Garcias -- Myrna and Gladys Garcia’s family lived there. [00:14:00] My
godmother lived there. They lived down Mohawk.
JJ:
What were her name?
10
�CR:
[Masimina?] y Don Pedro. That was my uncle -- I mean my godmother and my
godfather. And that was -- that whole building was a Puerto Rican family. And
then they ended up moving on Armitage. That’s how I remember that one.
JJ:
So you had people living from Park and North Avenue all the way to Halsted you
said.
CR:
Right. So there was Puerto Ricans all the way starting I’m going to say Clark, we
could say La Salle. There was a lot of Puerto Ricans living around there. And
they followed -- everyone followed each other. There was a lot of them living like
I said on North Avenue and then Larrabee and then it just kept -- Willow -- Burling
-- Halsted. What’s the other street? Dayton, [00:15:00] Orchard. Orchard had -Luis Gutiérrez uncle and aunt lived on Orchard. I lived on Orchard after I got
married. Well not get married but after my older days.
JJ:
And Congressman Luis Gutiérrez.
CR:
Right. His family lived on Orchard. Believe it was this. And then I remember
talking about El Congreso, that was on North Avenue and Larrabee and Caribe.
JJ:
And what did they --
CR:
They used to have dancing. There was dancing and it was the baseball league.
El Puerto Boricua I think it was the name. Puerto Boricua. And they used to
have really, you know, just family gatherings and --
JJ:
So Puerto Boricua was a different organization, or they were connected with the
Congreso is that what you’re saying?
CR:
They -- it was a baseball league. It wasn’t part of the church. It was just a
baseball league that they would have dances and people would come there and
11
�meet. I guess all the Puerto Ricans [00:16:00] that came from Puerto Rico, I
guess everyone would meet there. And I remember as a little girl going there
with my parents to the dances. So -- and it was a lot of Puerto Ricans.
JJ:
Puerto Boricua is a veteran’s organization or?
CR:
It was. It did have the veteran’s thing, but I don’t know what it stood for. I can’t
remember.
JJ:
(inaudible) I think it was a VFW.
CR:
VFW or VFM post.
JJ:
But it was all Puerto Rican.
CR:
All Puerto Ricans. Because my father used to be a --
JJ:
I forgot where they were located. You don’t remember or?
CR:
They -- that -- there was -- okay, let me see. It was two of them. There was one,
you know what I can’t remember. But it was more than one. One was on Ogden
I think, Ogden and --
JJ:
Chicago Avenue?
CR:
Maybe Chicago Avenue? That was number two. So we would exchange
[00:17:00] and go to different parties there. And then there was a lot of Puerto
Rican families around Milwaukee and Grand and Chicago Avenue, Ashland.
JJ:
So could this have been like part of the same community but in different like
pockets or? Because I know you were talking about La Salle and Superior and
now you’re talking about Chicago Avenue and Grand.
CR:
Right because some of -- a lot of the families started moving more north.
12
�JJ:
So they were moving more north. And looks like they were moving more west
too.
CR:
Mm-hmm.
JJ:
I mean pockets at least.
CR:
Pockets of them, but you know, couldn’t keep up with them.
JJ:
Because in between you had -- what were some of the buildings in between?
What kind of businesses?
CR:
There used to be the Spanish store, the bodega, La Bodega, the stores. I can’t -I was kind of small at that time, but I think it was [00:18:00] the stores. The
Spanish stores I remember.
JJ:
What was that a downtown or was it a industrial area or what kind of area was it?
CR:
It was just buildings. It could have -- just buildings. I don’t think there was an
industrial area, no. Just --
JJ:
Putting words. (chuckles)
CR:
No, I’m just trying to remember. Every time you talk, I’m just like remember the
houses around there. You know, third floor, fourth floor, fifth floor. I mean
walking North Avenue. But we weren’t that far. We were just --
JJ:
Oh so they were tall buildings.
CR:
It was tall buildings. Not, you know, row houses or like that.
JJ:
Where’d everybody stay? How -- what did it look like --
CR:
Oh my god. We lived -- okay, going back to Larrabee, if we were on Superior.
Superior and La Salle, it was a three-room house. And it was my father, my
mother, me and my sister, my brother. And then, you know, Puerto Ricans tend
13
�to bring their aunts and their uncles to live with them, the sisters and stuff. So it
was [00:19:00] my uncle and my aunt. We all lived in a one, two, three room
apartment. That was a three room apartment. So my bedroom, me and my
sister’s bedroom was in the kitchen. We had bunk beds. And I can’t remember
the other rooms. It was a very small apartment, but we all lived there for many
years.
JJ:
And where did you play? Or did you go out or? I mean, I don’t know what those
--
CR:
I don’t know where we played --
JJ:
-- the guys go out.
CR:
My mother wouldn’t let us out. When we were on Superior and La Salle, we very
rarely went out. We would be in the house. And if we did, it would be around the
neighborhood, and we would probably hang out in the beauty shop that was
downstairs. We would hang out there. But of going out to play, I can’t remember.
Just going to school, you know, and I went to Ogden. [00:20:00]
JJ:
Okay, you went to Ogden.
CR:
Ogden School.
JJ:
What do you remember about Ogden?
CR:
I remember about Ogden was that we did not speak English. So me and my
sister were put in the same classroom and my sister had already started school
in Puerto Rico. So when she came here, they put both of us in a classroom. I
believe we were maybe first grade. And I think they forgot about us. They didn’t
know that we were there. Because they never spoke to us. And at that time,
14
�again I would say my name is not Carmen. My name is Camila. They didn’t
know how to pronounce my name, so they changed it to Carmen. My sister’s
name was Mina. They changed it to Myrna. And then we had to learn Spanish in
the -- you know, I mean English in the street. Learn it little by little until you got it.
But of them having bilingual education to teach us, none of that. So it was very
hard. It was a very -- it was not a good time for us. [00:21:00] And we always
wanted to go back to Puerto Rico. Because I believe we came in the middle of
winter, and we were not dressed properly for the weather. And it was very cold, I
remember that. And we always used to cry and tell our mother that we wanted to
go back to Puerto Rico with our family. And we couldn’t. So that was the starting
of our life in Chicago.
JJ:
And actually, your parents, were they planning to come to stay here or?
CR:
I believe they were. My father came first. And I believe my father came to pick
cucumbers and tomatoes in Connecticut. He went to Connecticut, and it was the
time of the -- el Muñoz Marín, they had that bootstrap. And I believe the
churches were the one that paid his airfare to go and work in those fields. So
and I didn’t even know this until years later. My father was a migrant worker. He
came here to work. And then I guess he didn’t like it over there in Connecticut
and he ended up coming [00:22:00] to Chicago. And I believe some of his
friends that he knew in Puerto Rico took him in which I think was the Peñas and
the Almestica and the -- I can’t remember the last -- the family. Found a job at
Western Electric and that’s where he retired from. Like the next 30 years, he
worked at Western Electric.
15
�JJ:
That was a pretty good job.
CR:
At that time.
JJ:
Did they have other Latinos working?
CR:
There was a lot of Latinos working there. Blacks too.
JJ:
Western Electric.
CR:
Yeah. Western was well known. You had Western Electric, you had -- oh my
god what was the factories that were around there? On Clybourn? Remember
the factories on Clybourn? There was a lot of Puerto Ricans --
JJ:
Seeburg was there.
CR:
See-- yeah.
JJ:
OH MetalCraft.
CR:
MetalCraft was very well known. I remember those.
JJ:
Midwest Coil and Transformer was another one in Halsted.
CR:
Okay.
JJ:
Yeah because that’s -- [00:23:00] I knew there was a lot of factories at that time.
CR:
Right, but you know Western Electric was like on 35th or something and Cicero?
JJ:
(inaudible) was south, yeah.
CR:
It was south. So my father -- I used to remember my father every morning he’d
get up at three in the morning. Wait for the bus, take the bus -- and he didn’t
have a car, my father did not drive. So he had to depend on the bus to take him
and bring him back to work. I remember the blizzard of ’69 that the whole city of
Chicago was in a standstill because there was no busses running. The snow
was I don’t know how high the snow was. And he couldn’t come home so he was
16
�like stuck out there for like three or four days. I remember that. We were out of
school because everything was just totally dead. Nobody moved.
JJ:
And you were in school in Ogden at that time?
CR:
At that time, well the snow wasn’t -- when I was on Larrabee but during -- at
Ogden, I graduated from Ogden. And I’m sorry [00:24:00] I take that back. It
wasn’t Ogden. I ended up -- from Ogden I ended up in La Salle. When we
moved to Larrabee, then I went to La Salle.
JJ:
La Salle was on Sedgwick or?
CR:
Sedgwick and Menomonee? Or that was -- so Ogden was my first school when I
came here from Puerto Rico. Then when we moved to Larrabee, then I started
going to La Salle. We did go to Newberry but then for some reason we got
transferred out and ended up in La Salle. So I ended up graduating from La
Salle. And that was in ’65, 1965.
JJ:
From eighth grade?
CR:
From eighth grade.
JJ:
Okay. And there was just elementary, just kind of routine elementary.
CR:
Yeah, routine.
JJ:
Anything exciting at La Salle?
CR:
Not that I remember. There was a lot of Latinos. I can’t remember the names
and when we graduated, everybody took a different path. Some went to Tuley.
Some went to Lake View. [00:25:00] Some went -- I don’t know if Wells was
around. I can’t remember if Wells was around. Some went to Saint Michael’s.
17
�But we couldn’t afford Saint Michael’s, so we didn’t go to Saint Michael’s. We
ended up going Waller. Which is now Lincoln Park.
JJ:
Lincoln Park High.
CR:
Lincoln Park High School.
JJ:
But you went to -- did you go to Saint Joseph’s at all?
CR:
I went to Saint Joseph for the catechism and just -- but not for school. We
couldn’t afford to go to a Catholic school.
JJ:
Okay. So you went for the catechism?
CR:
Catechism and maybe --
JJ:
And where’d you did your communion? Where did you --
CR:
My communion was Saint Michael’s.
JJ:
Saint Michael’s.
CR:
Because Saint Joseph I believe was on Orleans, right? And Chicago?
JJ:
Right, right. So you were at Saint Michael’s, you were going to Spanish mass
[00:26:00] in the big chapel and everything.
CR:
Beautiful. Beautiful church. And then they moved out. They stopped the
Spanish churches -- they didn’t stop the service, they just moved it to a smaller -they moved it to the hall. And then from the hall -- it was shrinking. They moved
it to the rectory, in the basement of the rectory. Until one day they just stopped.
JJ:
So they started at the big chapel?
CR:
They started in the church. And from the church they went to the hall which was
Saint Michael’s high school.
JJ:
So were they advanced -- was that an advancement or?
18
�CR:
No I think it was a deterioration of the community changing.
JJ:
So the community was changing so, less --
CR:
The shrinking. Less people so they didn’t need that whole mass. You remember
Saint Michael’s. That was a humongous church.
JJ:
Well I remember a humongous church but when I was looking at some of the
documents there was not much record of Spanish people going to -- attending
that church. [00:27:00]
CR:
But there was.
JJ:
So you’re saying it was a humongous --
CR:
It used -- at one time it was a service where half the church was filled. And then
as people started moving, it just kept shrinking and shrinking and I guess they
justified --
JJ:
Half the church was filled of Spanish people?
CR:
Of Spanish people. Everything was in Spanish. The music was in Spanish. The
priest --
JJ:
And apparently they didn’t make enough noise because in that there’s no record
of that.
CR:
There’s not? Okay.
JJ:
I mean I was looking at some --
CR:
Probably it was intention.
JJ:
No, what I’m asking -- I guess what I’m trying to ask is, to you there was a big
congregation?
19
�CR:
I believe it was a big congregation. And there was weddings there. There was,
god let me see if I remember when I was a little girl. They used to have
communion there. The -- there was a lot of activities. But I guess it’s not --
JJ:
Well what kind of activities? I mean you said weddings and --
CR:
Weddings, parties, they would do Mother’s Day party [00:28:00] for Mother’s Day.
They would do an Easter party. Christmas. They would do Los Reyes.
JJ:
Los Reyes?
CR:
They would do Los Reyes.
JJ:
You mean the parranda?
CR:
(Spanish) [00:28:12]
JJ:
And you said that there was an Easter, right? Were you there that -- there was a
play I believe that they used to do.
CR:
They used to do the plays, but I don’t -- I remember them, but I just wasn’t real
involved. But like I said it was an activity where there was a lot of Puerto Ricans
there. There was a lot. So there was a lot, you know everybody spoke the same
language. The food was eaten. The people got together.
JJ:
And in fact, the Puerto Rican Congress was not that far away from Saint
Michael’s.
CR:
No it was like two miles.
JJ:
So that was like a center at that time for Puerto Ricans.
CR:
Right. The Congress which was on North Avenue there in Larrabee.
JJ:
And (inaudible) and all that, all the different vans and that. And the [polls?]
[00:29:00] you said that (inaudible).
20
�CR:
And the baseball leagues.
JJ:
What do you mean the baseball leagues?
CR:
You know there used to be baseball played at Lincoln Park. You know that we
had a lot of Puerto Rican not -- we did not play in Humboldt Park. We played -or my father had -- he was a manager of the baseball league. He played in
Lincoln Park. And the other park -- there was another park. Was it Garfield?
JJ:
On the southside?
CR:
On the southside -- the Puerto Ricans played there. And I remember there was a
riot. There was a riot that broke out -- a baseball riot. In Garfield Park.
JJ:
In Garfield Park?
CR:
Between the -- I don’t know what -- who it was, but I know it was Puerto Ricans
and maybe Black or was it White? I can’t remember. But I remember that riot.
And then there was Garfield. But not in -- Lincoln Park, we played baseball
there. So like North Avenue -- North Avenue and Lincoln Park. [00:30:00] North
Avenue and Lincoln Park.
JJ:
North Avenue and Lincoln Park by the VFW?
CR:
That you had to go walk over the bridge. They used to play baseball there.
JJ:
And a lot of people used to show up?
CR:
Oh my god it was -- and they used to sell food.
JJ:
What kind of food?
CR:
Well you know it was so funny because I was talking to my brother and my
brother was telling me that there used to be a hotdog stand or a food stand over
the bridge to -- you know when you had to go over the bridge, so it was Lake
21
�Shore Drive. So there used to be a little stand there and people would buy ice
cream, popcorn, and stuff. So this guy -- this Puerto Rican guy started making
sandwiches. And his business got so big, and my brother was telling me that he
just recently -- he interviewed him about how the business, how he made the
business. And he started making sandwiches. So people would buy sandwiches
from this guy, and he would sell it out of the trunk of his car. So that I remember.
I don’t remember it too clear, but I remember that we used to buy ice cream and
pop and hotdogs there. [00:31:00] But when this guy started making his own
sandwiches and people would come and get from him instead of getting it from
the park.
JJ:
And did they raise -- how did they raise money?
CR:
Well you had the beautiful baseball league, and I guess they had dues, and they
used to wear beautiful uniforms. I remember the uniforms. Beautiful outfits. And
when they had the leagues, and I believe there was leagues that would come
from Puerto Rico to play baseball there. I mean it was very popular. Very
popular.
JJ:
Were these well-organized?
CR:
Very well organized. Managers and everything. Because you had El Congreso
and you had El Puerto Boricua, so it was a big, big baseball leagues. And so
they played at Lincoln Park, and they played at Garfield Park.
JJ:
You don’t recall them playing at Humboldt park at that time?
CR:
No. That one I don’t remember. I remember Garfield and Lincoln. [00:32:00]
22
�JJ:
Now, they had -- did they also have any -- I know Saint Michael’s had an annual
fair. And do you recall that at all or? Like an annual fair, you know, with the
Ferris wheel and all that? You don’t recall.
CR:
No, I don’t remember that.
JJ:
Okay. The Puerto Rican Congress, were they not involved in the first parade or
something like that?
CR:
There was, but I wasn’t really part of it. And it could have been -- I remember the
queen. I remember there used to be a queen. There was a queen. I can’t
remember who it was, but she was.
__:
Carmen Cristia. Because (inaudible) and Carmen Cristia there was like a
discrepancy as to who was the real Puerto Rican queen.
JJ:
Carmen Cristia?
CR:
See I don’t remember that one. I remember --
JJ:
I recall the day we had to vote for the queen there at the Puerto Rican Congress.
CR:
Was it?
JJ:
Which is right there in Lincoln Park? I mean that’s something that’s kind
[00:33:00] of like where the first parades -- because at first there was a Festival
de San Juan all the way in 1953 at Holy Name Cathedral. At the (inaudible) at
the --
CR:
So I wasn’t here, I was still in Puerto Rico.
JJ:
But then the official Puerto Rican parade I think began through Saint Michael’s
and Puerto Rican Congress and some of the other --
CR:
Oh really? Okay.
23
�JJ:
That’s what I recall, I mean what I remember. But because I agree with you.
There was a very big community at --
CR:
Oh my god. Yes there was. I mean when you look back at all the, the V, I mean I
can name people I just remember --
JJ:
What people? Why don’t you tell me about them?
CR:
Okay. The Vélez, the Peñas, the Lugos, the Almestica, what else? Oh my god.
Pantoja, [00:34:00] because that was a big family on Larrabee. Big, big family.
JJ:
So when you say a big family, you’re not talking about the immediate family,
you’re saying the relatives.
CR:
The whole -- yes, it was relatives. Aunts, uncles, all of them all lived around each
other.
JJ:
So people were coming from Puerto Rico, not just one family but aunts, uncles
and everyone.
CR:
Brothers, sisters. And then the ones that were here would have gotten married
and, you know, started their own family.
JJ:
So is that not like some of the immigrant communities that come except that
Puerto Ricans were already citizens but.
CR:
Yes.
JJ:
But they were coming like immigrants?
CR:
Right because you know my family -- my mother took in or brought my uncle, my
aunt, two aunts and two uncles came from Puerto Rico when we came. And then
my uncle, I remember my uncle joined the service, he was in the army. And he
went through a really rough time, very racist. You know, he would tell us stories
24
�of things that happened to him, [00:35:00] and he came to live with us. So my
mother brought her two brothers and her two sisters to live with us. So you could
picture just all of us. And a cousin. Because I just remembered now, a cousin
too. So she brought her cousin, her two brothers and her two sisters to come
here. They worked, made money and some of them right now they live in Puerto
Rico. But when they were here, they lived with us for many years, and we all
lived together.
JJ:
In the same three room apartment?
CR:
No, that one was my uncle, my two uncles. But when we moved to Larrabee it
was my two aunts and my two uncles. They all lived -- and this one was a little
bigger. We had a three bedroom. It was a three bedroom, living room, dining
room, kitchen. Six rooms. So it was a lot bigger. So in like in one bedroom it
was me and my sister in one bed and my aunt, and my other aunt slept in
another bed. Then the room in the back, there was bunk beds, so my uncles
lived there with my brothers. [00:36:00] And then my mother and father slept in
the front. But that was a bigger apartment.
JJ:
And everyone -- was there -- did everyone get along pretty well or no?
CR:
It was a Puerto Rican community. We all got along. It was a beautiful
community. We had a rooster that the -- we -- I never forget that we lived next
door to this White -- it was a White family. And that rooster would wake up in the
morning and just, you know, crow. And they started complaining. We had
rabbits, chickens (chuckles) in the backyard. And they started complaining.
JJ:
No goats.
25
�CR:
No goats. It was chickens, it was rabbits. And they were in the back. And we
lived in a third floor. It was a third floor. We were living in a third floor. And the
Vélez lived on the second floor which I asked you Ricardo and what’s his name?
Because they part of --
JJ:
Victor.
CR:
Victor Vélez. [00:37:00] They lived in the second floor. And that was a family of
about ten. That was a -- that family, there was ten of them.
JJ:
This was Larrabee and North Avenue?
CR:
Larrabee and North Avenue. The Vélez lived in the second floor. We lived on
the third floor.
JJ:
And this was ’65, ’66?
CR:
It would have been ’65 through ’69 I’m going to say. And who else lived there
that I can remember? Oh my god. It’s another Puerto Rican family that lived
there. It was a big family. It was a lot of them. They lived on the other side of
Willow on Larrabee. They must have -- they must have owned, or not owned, but
they lived like in three different buildings. And it was a big family. Fabian, Fabian
and it’ll come to me, their last name. They lived there.
JJ:
So what was the common language or was it mixed or? [00:38:00]
CR:
No it was Spanish, Puerto Rican. Puerto Rican. And then I remember there
used -- a Black -- I remember a Black beauty shop moved like next door to us
and they used to you know, Black -- a Black barber shop. It was a barber shop; it
wasn’t a beauty shop. And I remember my mother took us there to fix our hair.
She put a relaxer on our hair. And the relaxer was very, very strong and messed
26
�up our hair. Because they processed -- it was a process they used this horrible
stuff on our hair. And I remember one day our hair fell out. Those were little
things that I remember. And then Blacks started moving in. And -JJ:
On North Ave?
CR:
On Larrabee. No, on Larrabee coming down Larrabee because you had the
projects there. I guess when those projects started deteriorating, people were
starting to move.
JJ:
Because you’re talking about Larrabee and then there’s Ogden coming in also.
[00:39:00]
CR:
Right but Ogden was -- there was some projects there and there was a school
there. Wasn’t there a school?
JJ:
Because we, you know, so there you had Chicago and Ogden and now there’s
North Avenue and Ogden. And now there’s Puerto Ricans there too. At the time.
CR:
Right.
JJ:
So there’s kind of like moving west and north at the same time. And then they -North Avenue was like -- would you say that was like a -- people kind of just
followed North Avenue, down?
CR:
Yeah. All of North Avenue like I said between Clark all the way maybe I could
say Ashland? That was all Puerto Ricans.
JJ:
So it didn’t go past Ashland at that time?
CR:
Well maybe it did, but I didn’t go that far. I didn’t go that far. It could have gone
past Damen for all I know. I think there was an Italian there.
27
�JJ:
Okay. Because you also had another barrio from Harrison and Halsted and
Jackson and that area there was also.
CR:
I remember that. I heard of families there, but I don’t -- I don’t know those
families. [00:40:00] I knew some and my mother and father would go visit them.
You know you would have the Puerto Rican parties.
JJ:
What was that?
CR:
The Puerto Rican parties where they would have lechón y pitorro. And so when I
was little, but I would go to these parties and everybody, you know, just have a
good time. Dance, eat, talk about old times. I just remember the women. Good
music. Good music. But I was little at that time so I can’t remember.
JJ:
Records (inaudible).
CR:
Records. It was records. There was no -- I don’t remember the TV too much. I
don’t think there was too much Spanish. But the old records, the 33 and all the
songs that would come out.
JJ:
Spanish songs or?
CR:
All Spanish songs.
JJ:
Were there any bands at that time, any Spanish bands that you can --
CR:
There was when we would go to the party at Congreso. The bands would come
and perform. And it was good music. Good music. [00:41:00] Good liquor. A lot
of dancing. People would dance and have a good time.
JJ:
Live music and --
CR:
Live music. Good dancing music.
JJ:
So now you’re in Saint Michael’s. No you’re in Waller.
28
�CR:
I’m -- yeah, so we -- we were going to Waller but then what happened was Urban
Renewal took over all of Larrabee. I guess they built the projects and then when
it was -- when it was our turn, we had to move. Because Urban Renewal, what
they were going to tear down and I don’t know what they were going to do. And
at that time my father decided to buy a house -- a building. And he got a building
at 1113 West Armitage. It was a three flat building. Three apartments in the
back, two in the front, with a storefront. This guy was going to [00:42:00] move to
Arizona and he wanted to sell that building. He sold that building to my parents
for $35,000. But before that -- before that, me and Carlos, when Carlos first
came from -- which is my brother, Carlos came from Puerto Rico. We were
outside playing on La Salle and Superior and Carlos had just come from Puerto
Rico. And we crossed the street and Carlos got hit by a car and I was there and
that was the shock of my life. I actually saw my brother get run -- practically get
run over by a car. He did not know any English at all. He suffered so much.
They put a cast on him from his chest all the way down to his leg. And we lived
in a third floor apartment. So it would take like seven men to bring this boy all the
way up to the third floor. And it was a horrible, horrible scene. [00:43:00] And
Carlos never came out good from that accident. But the man that hit him set up
a trust fund for Carlos, for our family and that’s how my mother and father were
able to buy that house on Armitage. Because they took the money out -- they
took some of the money out and put a down payment on that house. And that’s
where we ended up in Lincoln Park. And we were there like 30 years. Twentyfive, thirty years.
29
�JJ:
1100 that’s like Clifton and --
CR:
Between Clifton and Seminary. We were right in the middle. We were in the
middle.
JJ:
And so there were other apartments there. You rented some apartments there?
CR:
And my parents would -- we would keep the whole third floor and then the
second floor was rented, the front and back and the first floor was rented. And
then the storefront was rented. So I remember it was a secondhand store one
time. [00:44:00] It was a Puerto Rican family bought it for -- they played dominos
there. They would play -- it was like a club -- Puerto Ricans would hang out there
and stuff. And then I can’t remember what it was afterwards and stuff. And so
we ended up (break in audio). My mother used to make ends meet by taking in
foster kids. So through our house, we must have had like about 100 foster kids
come through our house. Because that’s what she would do. To make ends
meet, my mother would wash clothes, would iron clothes, would cook. I
remember the teachers that would come -- we would have teachers at Arnold.
Remember what Arnold? There used to be some Spanish teachers, and my
mother would cook for them. And at lunchtime they would come and eat at my
mother’s house and that’s how she would make ends meet.
JJ:
In the house. Not a restaurant.
CR:
No they -- my -- they would come to my mother’s house, and they would eat
lunch and my mother would cook. And that’s how she makes [00:45:00] ends
meet.
JJ:
Several people used to do that. My mother’s --
30
�CR:
She used to do that too?
JJ:
Cook in the house.
CR:
She used to cook in the house.
JJ:
But at Clark Street.
CR:
Okay she did it on Clark. My mother did it on Larrabee. And I remember Cruz?
What is Milli Santiago’s? -- Juan Cruz?
__:
Julio Cruz.
CR:
Julio Cruz was one of the people that would come and eat. Ruben Cruz, the
pastor and his sister. These are people that we know after --
JJ:
They were teachers at Arnold or?
CR:
They were teachers and people that worked -- that knew that my mother would
cook, and they would come out there and eat.
JJ:
I remember Ruben Cruz, yeah.
CR:
Ruben Cruz, remember Ruben?
JJ:
Had a TV program later. On Channel Seven.
CR:
Later on.
JJ:
So now you’re on Armitage. You’re away from Saint Michael’s right?
CR:
Yes. And we started going to Saint Teresa’s. So Saint Teresa was our church.
And we did -- I did catechism.
JJ:
How did that start? How did that start?
CR:
That one? There was a Puerto -- there was a mass [00:46:00] there. There was
a Spanish mass there and there was Puerto Ricans there. So you had Arroyo’s
Liquor Store, which was on the corner of Sheffield and Armitage. You had the
31
�discotheque. They used to sell records next door. Then you had Jay Neal’s.
Remember Jay Neal’s? And it was a cleaners. And then it was a store and then
you had Saint Teresa’s. And I remember the dances in Saint Teresa’s.
JJ:
Oh you’re saying, so you’re looking at from Sheffield to Kenmore, those
businesses that were there.
CR:
The businesses that were there but there was families living all the way on
Burling, Larrabee.
JJ:
They were going further --
CR:
So we’re going -- I’m going further east.
JJ:
But you’re more -- now you’re closer to --
CR:
But we’re closer to Racine. Racine and Armitage.
JJ:
So Armitage became a Puerto Rican street at that time.
CR:
At that time you had --
JJ:
Because you had North Avenue but now you get Armitage.
CR:
You had Armitage, so people were moving in. [00:47:00]
JJ:
So Puerto Ricans are moving north, as a group. As a --
CR:
Sheffield. On Halsted. Jay Neal’s -- no not Jay Neal’s. Shinnick’s. Remember
Shinnick’s the drugstore that was under the L Station? That was a German
drugstore and his -- his son ended up marrying the -- oh my god what was the
Puerto Rican family that moved there? Ivan Medina? The Medina sisters. They
ended up marrying one of the sons. And then the other son ended up marrying a
Mexican girl. Then you had the flower shop. Then there as a barber -- no barber
shop it was a barber shop. It was a -- the Medina, but it was a different Medina.
32
�They owned a barber shop right there on Bissell and Armitage. Remember the
barber shop?
JJ:
On Bissell and Armitage?
CR:
On Armitage.
JJ:
Yeah there was a barber shop there [00:48:00] I don’t recall the owner.
CR:
And on Halsted, do you remember the clinic? The Infant Welfare? That was a
Puerto Rican clinic. Everybody that was there went there.
JJ:
On Halsted?
CR:
On Halsted. So you had everybody that lived on Willow, on Burling, on Orchard.
All the way down past North Avenue, go to that clinic. That was a Puerto Rican -and that clinic did not start there. Remember the meat -- Gepperth’s? What
used to be Gepperth’s Meat Market? That was Infant Welfare, and they ended
up moving and then the Meat Market came in. I remember that one. So -- and
then you had a cleaners on the corner of Armitage and Halsted. It was a Cubanowned cleaners. And then, god all the -- then that’s where you had a lot of
Puerto Rican families living between Dickens [00:49:00] all the way past Willow,
past North Avenue up to Clybourn. And then that’s not counting Bissell, that’s not
counting Sheffield. You had Orchard. You had -- what was the other streets that
was around there-- it was all Puerto Ricans.
JJ:
So what percentage of the community was Puerto Rican what do you think?
CR:
I’m going to say it was past 50 percent. It was mostly. There was not -- I -- there
was more Blacks because you had Manierre School over there on Sheffield and
near Armitage. So Manierre or Sexton. I can’t remember --
33
�JJ:
Sexton.
CR:
It was Sexton. That was a Black -- and there was Blacks there and Puerto
Ricans. So I’m going to say 50 percent, or more was a Puerto Rican
neighborhood. All the stores were there. There was a Spanish store on
[00:50:00] Bissell. I forgot the name of that store.
JJ:
On Wisconsin you mean? By the bridge?
CR:
Under the RITA?
JJ:
By that yeah. Right near there.
CR:
There used to be --
JJ:
That the one you’re talking about? The Spanish one?
CR:
-- the grocery store.
JJ:
Right. The grocery store. And you still had Mario’s on Halsted and Willow.
(inaudible)
CR:
Okay.
JJ:
But now the Puerto Ricans are moving more toward Armitage and closer to Saint
Teresa’s. And lower, were there Caballeros de San Juan?
CR:
Not around there. It was mostly just Puerto Rican family like Clifton. All of
Clifton. So it was like from Armitage and Clifton past I’m going to say Fullerton
was all Puerto Ricans around there. There was a building on the corner of
Clifton and Armitage, that whole building was Puerto Rican. And then there used
to be a lemonade store across the street from that [00:51:00] big building.
Hedman was next door. There was big factory there, Hedman. Lot of Puerto
34
�Ricans in -- well lot of people. It was a mix. It was a lot of White, Black. It was a
factory.
JJ:
So there were factories around there at that time.
CR:
Yeah. Because you had the -- on Clybourn there you had that frame place, I’m
trying to remember the name of the frame -- they used to make frames, picture
frames. Lot of Puerto Ricans worked there. And then you had Hedman. You
had, I don’t know what was the -- it was all factories.
__:
Oscar Mayer wasn’t that around there too?
CR:
Right. Oscar Mayer was on --
JJ:
On Sedgwick, my father went there.
CR:
The Oscar Mayers, the -- but no Oscar Mayer was --
JJ:
It was on Sedgwick. It was more on Sedgwick.
CR:
It was more on Sedgwick, but that -- yeah, I remember that one too.
JJ:
My father worked in the area for many years.
CR:
But then we had Oscar Mayer School that was on Clifton and --
JJ:
The Oscar Mayer School, yeah.
CR:
-- and Dickens. Clifton and --
JJ:
Is that what you’re saying Oscar Mayer school?
CR:
Or the factory. I remember the factory. I don’t remember working there.
[00:52:00] I remember that was a big place. But I’m talking about the school,
Oscar Mayer.
JJ:
But that had changed because that wasn’t like that all the time but when you
were there it was Puerto Rican.
35
�CR:
It was Puerto Rican.
JJ:
So it had already --
CR:
All of Racine, Puerto Rican.
JJ:
It had already turned Puerto Rican when it had -- before they had -- there were
other ethnic minorities that were living there?
CR:
There was, but we just hung around -- you know, there was Whites, there was
Blacks, but it was mostly Puerto Ricans. We knew all the Puerto Ricans.
JJ:
When you got there.
CR:
Yes.
JJ:
To that section. Okay now did Saint Teresa’s have any activities or anything like
that?
CR:
Saint Teresa had a Spanish service.
JJ:
Like Saint Michael’s had, did Saint Teresa’s do that?
CR:
Saint Teresa’s had that. There was dances down in the basement. The school,
we didn’t get to go to Saint Teresa’s school because we couldn’t afford it so.
JJ:
Down in the basement was there -- was the mass in the regular chapel or in the -
CR:
It was a regular church. It was a mass in the -- and then they would have coffee
[00:53:00] and donuts in the rector-- not in the rectory, in the hall that was next
door to the church. So it would have been Bissell. No, not Bissell. What was
that?
JJ:
Kenmore. Kenmore.
CR:
Kenmore.
36
�JJ:
Okay so now did you have any activities at that --
CR:
It was dances and it was weddings, baptismals.
JJ:
Now I remember --
CR:
The clinic.
JJ:
-- going to dances there. So you had some core -- hardcore youth going there,
who were also there. I mean they -- besides the baptisms and the other. They
were actually working with the youth at that time.
CR:
Yeah, yeah.
JJ:
The Puerto Ricans that were at that church. So they were providing services for
the youth at that time.
CR:
There was a lot of Puerto Ricans.
JJ:
Or do you recall --
CR:
I remember some of the activities, but we did not go to Saint Teresa’s. We just
would go to church on Sunday. I did my confirmation [00:54:00] there.
JJ:
That’s right because you were being sheltered in your house, is that --
CR:
Yeah, you know, my mother would not let the girls out.
JJ:
So what did the girls do -- they’re sheltered in their house?
CR:
The boys got to go out, but the Puerto Rican mothers would keep their daughters
in the house.
JJ:
So what did the daughters do when they were at the house?
CR:
We would watch TV, hang out. We could play in front of the house because we
lived -- here was our house and it was a big parking lot which was part of
Hedman’s parking lot. So it would be like -- I’m gonna say 20 car parking space.
37
�So we would play outside while when the cars were not there. After the cars left
we would play outside. So that was it, play.
JJ:
Okay.
CR:
It’s a dog. Dog. Dog. I think he’s --
JJ:
Oh, okay. [00:55:00] So what -- after -- you moved from there, when did you
move from there to Lincoln Park?
CR:
In the -- I’m going to say, my parents ended up moving but so we were there from
’65 to maybe in the ’80s.
JJ:
Okay you were there ’65 to the ’80s, so during that time, 1968, ’69, when the
Young Lords came there. What did you think about that?
CR:
Oh my god. I remember the Young Lords. They took over the church on Bissell
and Armitage. So I really couldn’t hang out with them.
JJ:
Dayton and Armitage.
CR:
Dayton and Armitage. Okay so it was Dayton and Bissell, Halsted. And I just
used to hang out with them. But I wasn’t really part of the Young Lords. I just
used to do the activities with them. So I remember that they -- you -- the Young
Lords took over the church. And I remember going to City Hall [00:56:00] and I
remember there was I guess there was some argument or fraction going on in
City Hall. And we ended up going back to the church. I remember the pastor
there that was killed.
JJ:
Reverand Bruce Johnson.
CR:
Bruce.
JJ:
And what -- what was the community saying at that time when he was killed?
38
�CR:
That he was murdered. And they said he was murdered by the CIA. That was
the word out there that he was murdered by the police. He was murdered.
JJ:
They didn’t blame it on the Young Lords?
CR:
No. He was helping the Young Lords, that’s what I heard. And that’s why they
killed him. And then I remember the breakfast. There was a breakfast that we
started. I remember the Black Panther party coming down and telling us how to
run the programs. Because they were running the programs in California or LA.
And we did that. And then we ended up opening up the clinic at Saint Teresa’s.
JJ:
So you worked in the breakfast for --
CR:
I worked in the breakfast. I’m --
JJ:
What was that like?
CR:
That was beautiful. [00:57:00] That was beautiful. We used to make really good
breakfast for these kids. They loved it. So we had all the kids in the
neighborhood would come there. We even -- and had it set up where the kids
got to eat a very good, hearty breakfast. And then we opened up the clinic. And
that’s where I met Omar and [Abba?] López and the doctor. There was a doctor
that came from Denver. Do you remember the -- there was a guy that was a
doctor.
JJ:
Alberto [Chamino?] was a medical student, but you had Doctor Jack Johns was
kind of the director of the --
CR:
The clinic.
JJ:
-- the clinic.
CR:
Okay so I wasn’t too involved with that.
39
�JJ:
And some other, and some other --
CR:
Nurses and assistants.
JJ:
Yeah, they were voluntary -- not volunteer doctors, but volunteer --
CR:
So I did mostly the breakfast, not the clinic.
JJ:
But it was in the same location. Were there people from the community coming
in?
CR:
Well the clinic -- the clinic was at Saint Teresa’s, I remember. The breakfast -[00:58:00]
JJ:
You were right. They moved later to Saint Teresa’s.
CR:
Okay.
JJ:
It started at the church --
CR:
It started at the church okay. So I remember going --
JJ:
Because (inaudible) years later.
CR:
And the breakfast was done at the church. I mean not at the church on Bissell. I
remember the breakfast so.
JJ:
And so what other things do you remember? Do you recall -- were you at the
church when Manny Ramos -- when we had that funeral or no?
CR:
No.
JJ:
Okay.
CR:
No, I heard about it. But I wasn’t there. And I believe there was some other
shootings that took place on Damen? Damen and Division? The riots. And
some other stuff that was going on, but I did not participate in that.
40
�JJ:
I think the riots were earlier and there was a riot at that time in the [community?]
But it was not Young Lord --
CR:
No, no, that wasn’t. You just heard about it, you know. As a Puerto Rican
community you would hear about all that stuff that was going on. But we were
very sheltered. [00:59:00] My mother --
JJ:
That was my (inaudible) years.
CR:
You don’t remember because they didn’t let us go out. We would not go out.
She let the boys go out but not the girls.
JJ:
Did it have an impact, some of the work that was being done -- what I mean, did
it affect the community at all? Not everyone was for the Young Lords.
CR:
No, they weren’t. But everyone knew the Young Lords and I’m not going to lie,
some people would say that you know you guys were a bunch of thugs and
gangbangers and stuff. And then you had some that did very good work. So it
was a mixed reaction, you know? So.
JJ:
Well because actually the Young Lords were thugs before. They weren’t --
CR:
And you guys used to hang out on Sheffield under the L station. And there used
to be a liquor store there.
JJ:
So that didn’t help their image later that everybody was drunk.
CR:
Everybody used to drink and smoke pot and hang out, right? [01:00:00] That
was a good times. Good times. And then, you know, when the Young Lords
started organizing then that was a different era there then.
JJ:
What about McCormick Seminary that had you --
41
�CR:
Now, I remember McCormick Seminary because I knew there was a takeover,
and I don’t remember a lot. I know there was a takeover, but I can’t -- I was there
but I don’t remember.
JJ:
You were there in the community.
CR:
I just -- I was there as a supporter. But like --
JJ:
Like inside or outside?
CR:
We were -- there was a sit-in inside. So they --
JJ:
And you went inside?
CR:
Yeah.
JJ:
What do you -- do you remember anything?
CR:
I just remember going with the crowd. That was it.
JJ:
Okay. Was there a good-sized crowd or?
CR:
It was a pretty big crowd. It was a pretty big crowd. And I remember some of the
leaders if you think back of all the leaders that were there. I cannot remember all
of them, but the Young Lords were very instrumental and there were some other
people there and [01:01:00] -- but I can’t -- I wasn’t -- I didn’t stay around. I
couldn’t. I just was part of -- I think there was a march. I remember the march.
And that was about it.
JJ:
Okay now after that, the neighborhood continued to change. And then what did
you get involved with after that?
CR:
Well, you know, after the neighborhood started changing people started moving
out. I remember the one family that lived right next door on Dickens. Remember
the Polish -- there used to be a Polish stand there. Oh I remember -- let me tell
42
�you what I remember clearly. When Martin Luther King got killed, we were at
Waller. We were at Waller. And we -- there was no Latino representation in that
school and so one day we just got together, and all the Puerto Ricans walked
out. The Puerto Ricans walked out. This was a school that wasn’t very friendly
to the Puerto Ricans [01:02:00] that were there. They never would push the
Puerto Ricans to excel. When it was time for college graduation they would tell
us, “Go to a city college or get married.” Or a lot of them worked in factories
which to this day, these -- a lot of these people retired from these factories that
worked -- that used to -- that they started working there when they were in high
school. And so I remember walking out because we wanted some constants.
We wanted teachers and the whole Puerto Rican -- all the high school kids that
were there, we marched out and stood in front of the school. And then I guess
they settled the differences and that’s where we started getting some Spanish
teachers there. I remember the riots. I remember when Martin Luther King got
killed.
JJ:
So who organized this?
CR:
This was like a group of us. It was me and I can’t remember. It was some other
people. We just -- a group of Puerto Ricans had just got together, and we just
wanted some representation there.
JJ:
And this was in 1968?
CR:
It would have been ’67, [01:03:00] ’68. And there was a lot of Puerto Ricans
there.
JJ:
So this was before the Young Lords --
43
�CR:
Yes.
JJ:
-- that you were doing this. So the community actually was already -- there was
act-- people that were activists.
CR:
Right they were active. Because we wanted -- Arnold, Arnold was a Puerto
Rican School. I didn’t go to Arnold. I did not end up -- my brother ended up
going to Arnold. It was a big graduation but again we were moved into Waller
and there was no Latino representation. And the education wasn’t the greatest.
And if you did not -- and the kids would hang out. A lot of them would hang out in
front of the school. I mean they were good years. They were good years. But
when you look back at all the young Latinos that were there, the Puerto Ricans
that were there, not a lot of them went to college. Because they never pushed
college for us. They would just not recommend college for us. My mother that -my mother only went to school until the second grade. She made sure that we
went to college. So me and my sister, we ended up going -- after we [01:04:00]
graduated from high school, by ourselves -- we took it upon ourselves, my sister
ended up going to Northeastern. I ended up going to Loop College. That time it
was Loop College. So there wasn’t anybody there to kind of push us along to
attend University of Chicago or anything.
JJ:
And this was because there were no teachers that were --
CR:
There was no representation for us. Even though it was a Puerto Rican
community, there was a lot of Latinos there. The representation wasn’t there. So
we suffered. There was a lot of suffering going on. The repre-- you know, it’s not
like now. So that -- we learned to survive. That was survival in the community.
44
�JJ:
And then you said that there was a Martin Luther King got killed and what
happened?
CR:
When Martin Luther King got murdered, the riots that broke out -- all the Black
kids, because Waller was a school that was Black, White, Puerto Rican. It was a
mixed school. And I never forget, and we had kids from Cooley, [01:05:00]
Cooley High. There was kids because when the Cabrini came, they divided.
Some of the blocks went to Cooley and some of the blocks went to Waller. So
they would have to come down Larrabee to go to Waller. So when this riot took
place, I will never forget every Black kid was beating up anything that was White.
And I remember me and my brother -- my sister, it was me and my sister. We
were trying to defend everyone. No, no, don’t hit her. No don’t hit her. But the
riots just spread out past Halsted and Armitage. It went all the way down to
Sheffield. Breaking of windows, just Oz Park. You remember Oz Park? That
used to be DePaul. DePaul was there. The center. There was a center there.
But those were not very good times.
JJ:
By Webster and --
CR:
Yeah, Webster and Dickens? I remember the Young Lords took over that park.
Because you guys wanted --
JJ:
People’s Park. [01:06:00]
CR:
And it was People’s Park for a couple of years, right? A year and stuff. So, I
don’t -- that one I just remember at that time I started --
JJ:
We actually took over the -- they had tore down the buildings that Puerto Ricans
used to live on -- between Armitage and Dickens by Halsted next to Oz Park.
45
�CR:
Right and left it (break in audio).
JJ:
About 350 people took it over.
CR:
See, that one I wasn’t part of, but I heard about it and stuff.
JJ:
But it was going on in the community and people were I guess talking about it
because it was from there.
CR:
That’s why, you know, to this day I tell people Lincoln Park was a community
when the Puerto Ricans were there. We had a community. You know you heard
the music, the eating, the getting along with everyone. Now it’s not a community.
Maybe to some other people, but when we were there it was a community.
Everybody knew each other. Everybody talked to each other. [01:07:00] And it
wasn’t like a lot of violence, and you go now there, and you feel so out of place.
JJ:
But there were a lot of a different clubs -- street clubs but there was not a lot -- a
lot of violence?
CR:
I didn’t think it was that much violence.
JJ:
No, I agree with you there wasn’t a lot of violence but there were all these street
clubs.
CR:
Right you had -- there used to be a boy’s club. What was the name of that boy’s
club on Sheffield? Sheffield? That the school -- the Manierre -- there was a
school there on Sheffield.
JJ:
There was Boy’s Club on Orchard.
CR:
On Orchard but then there was another club right there on Sheffield before you
get to --
JJ:
By Armitage what was that? The Puerto Rican Youth Center or something.
46
�CR:
It was a youth center. C -- Chicago Youth Center. Then you had -- yeah, there
was more places for the kids to hang out. Places -- [01:08:00]
JJ:
There was all kinds of -- there was several places. At nighttime Arnold wasn’t
open --
CR:
Right it was open to the community, and you had the field it was open.
JJ:
So they were like an afterschool programs for the youth so that’s why --
CR:
You had DePaul and there was a lot of activities there at DePaul. Where the
childcare center --
JJ:
(inaudible) for the youth. So there was a lot youth. And that prevented the
violence.
CR:
Now that’s what we need to go back to. But -- and it was a good times, it was
good times. You know, there was -- I’m not gonna say there was no violence, but
it was not -- it was a clean cut violence. That it wasn’t like now.
JJ:
So in other words, once the neighborhood was stable and there was a
community, the violence dropped. Is that what? Am I putting words in your
mouth?
CR:
I didn’t see -- I mean there was gangs. I’m not gonna say that there wasn’t.
There was gangs and you heard of the guys hanging out on Sheffield [01:09:00]
and so you knew who the -- do you remember Andre Gonzalez? -- Andre and his
brother Richie and that whole family died too. The only one living is his sister.
They all ended up dying of AIDS or heroin overdose. The Rodriguez family.
They used to hang around there. Johnny and Danny ended up dying of AIDS.
JJ:
Because actually there was a drug epidemic there.
47
�CR:
The heroin. And the Rodriguez, oh my god. There was so many guys that
ended up --
JJ:
Many Young Lords fell into that.
CR:
Yep, and then you had the Vietnam War. A lot of them went off to the Vietnam
War and came back very messed up. I remember that. I remember all the guys
from --
JJ:
And then the whole hippie era was around that time too. But it was a -- but then
the -- but you’re saying the community -- but the community was different, but it
was also beginning to -- people were beginning to be displaced and --
CR:
Yes they were because [01:10:00] I remember the family that I talk about that
owned this beautiful property on Halsted and Dickens, they ended up losing it
because they couldn’t afford it. And all the people down Halsted, a lot of them
lost their property. A lot of them stayed but a lot of them lost their property.
JJ:
How did they lose their property?
CR:
They couldn’t afford it. Everything was --
JJ:
But they were affording it before.
CR:
They were but for some reason I guess it was a time that the prices were starting
to go up and they could not keep up. Something happened that started
displacing the families. And then you had DePaul come in. I remember when
DePaul came in.
JJ:
What happened then?
CR:
DePaul displaced a lot of families. They started buying all the property around
the neighborhood and everything started going up, up, up. And it wasn’t the
48
�same. It wasn’t the same. And I didn’t feel that because at that time [01:11:00] I
had left that neighborhood, and my parents stayed there. And I ended up moving
to -- I was on Leavitt and Armitage. And at that time I got pregnant, and I was
living there. So I didn’t get to see but they changed a lot of the Puerto Rican
families that owned property -- a few stayed, like you had the Arroyo family. They
kept their property. They kept their houses. I remember the Rodriguez family
kept their houses. And to this day I believe there’s maybe a couple of Puerto
Ricans and Mexicans that own property. I don’t know if they still own it, but they
do live there.
JJ:
Was there any pressure by the city at all, by like building inspectors or anybody
like that?
CR:
It could have been. I wasn’t --
JJ:
But you’re not aware.
CR:
It could have been. And they couldn’t keep up.
JJ:
Was there a plan to displace people?
CR:
I believe there was. I believe wasn’t that the Title 20. Was that the name of the
plan to displace [01:12:00] all these people? I believe that the plan --
__:
Chicago 21?
CR:
It was Chicago 21 or 20. I remember the plan was build those Cabrini projects.
But then let them deteriorate. Because those projects deteriorated very quick.
JJ:
So they let them deteriorate.
CR:
They let them deteriorate.
JJ:
What do you mean?
49
�CR:
Elevators would break. They wouldn’t replace them. You started seeing people
hanging around. And then I believe that was the scene of the heroin time. And
you know people were shooting up and selling drugs and liquor stores started
coming up. And that deteriorated.
JJ:
So you’re saying they let it -- the police and everything --
CR:
I believe they did.
JJ:
Let it deteriorate. Why would they do that?
CR:
Because probably it was -- were they looking at the plan that that was going to be
prime property? I believe they looked into the future. That was only a temporary
plan. I mean some of the row houses stayed. I remember Montgomery Ward’s.
And what is Mongomery Ward’s now? Condos. Condos. [01:13:00] People live
there. That used to be one of the stores that people used to shop there. That
was like -- that was Larrabee and Chicago Avenue. The building’s still there, they
just restructured it to be very expensive homes. You got a police station there
now. What used to be the projects is now a big police station on Division and
Larrabee. And then all the projects started going down until people couldn’t live
there anymore. Then the floors started -- people only lived like the first eight
floor. Everything else was shut down. Crime. Till it just disappeared.
JJ:
So that police station is the old Chicago Avenue police station?
CR:
I don’t know if that was the same one.
JJ:
But they have a police station there.
CR:
But they have a police station right where --
JJ:
Where the Cabrini-Green used to be. And now there’s condominiums there.
50
�CR:
No, it’s open land because they tore them down. The last project to be torn
[01:14:00] down was the projects that was on Halsted and Division. That was the
last family to move out of there, the last family to go. And I believe it was a
couple of years ago or last year.
JJ:
And what was the reasoning to tear down those?
CR:
I remember somebody said that having people living on top of each other would
thus create like rats. If you put them all on top of each other they don’t grow,
they don’t thrive. And that was not a good setting. So why build them in the first
place?
JJ:
Concentrated poverty basically.
CR:
And that’s what happened.
JJ:
So now where is the poverty concentrated?
CR:
Where did they go?
JJ:
Yeah where did they go to now?
CR:
Well now I guess they were -- you know what, I don’t remember.
JJ:
Is it concentrated or no that’s not happening?
CR:
Now we’re scattered back to -- I think we’re scattered in the projects; I mean in
the suburbs. You know like scattered site. And then you had Altgeld [01:15:00]
projects over there. They started moving people around. And then there was a
lot of Blacks that lived in the row houses. And I believe there’s still some row
houses left on Chicago and what’s that -- Chicago and --
JJ:
Orleans.
51
�CR:
Orleans and stuff. There’s still some projects there. But the big ones that were
on Larrabee and Division and yeah, Division and Halsted, Division and Larrabee
and Chicago and Division and Sedgwick. They’re all torn down. The school,
Immaculate -- is it Immaculate Conception? That church is still there. I
remember there’s a -- what is the health clinic that’s there? Winfield Moody?
Winfield Moody is still there. So that’s some of the new buildings that came up.
But there’s no more projects at all. [01:16:00]
JJ:
So you came out of Lincoln Park. What are you doing today in terms of
community?
CR:
When I left Lincoln Park, my parents were still living there. I ended up moving
out and had a rough life. Ended up getting pregnant at 19 and I lived with a -- my
baby’s father for I don’t know how long. He was abusive. He was a drug addict.
He died of AIDS -- ended up dying of AIDS from shooting up. And I ended up
coming back home and I moved back on Armitage in my parent’s building and
then I ended up moving to Orchard and North Avenue. And then from there, I
just kind of moved out of the neighborhood. And now, I work for the state. I work
-- I’ve been working 25 years at the Illinois Department of Human Services. I
work with [01:17:00] pregnant teens, I do outreach, whatever. And that’s my job.
JJ:
But you also do volunteer work and --
CR:
I’m currently at San Lucas United Church of Christ which is a Puerto Rican
community. Or it is a Puerto Rican -- it’s changing. The same thing I -- I always
tell people the same thing that happened --
JJ:
Across the street from Humboldt Park.
52
�CR:
Across the street from Humboldt Park but I remember at -- the same thing that
happened in Lincoln Park, it’s happening here. Because we’re right in the heart
of Humboldt Park and you’re seeing gentrification. We were gentrified out of
Lincoln Park. Now I can probably say that my parents had brought a building,
and I can probably say before that I would say my parents never got on welfare.
My mother was a hardworking woman, and my father worked all his life. So, you
know, they brought the house because of Carlos’s accident. It was a tragic that
the accident happened, but we managed to get this beautiful building. And they
ended up buying another building in Wicker Park. So when we moved out
[01:18:00] of Armitage, and it wasn’t because I think my father and mother were
getting older and we were living in a third floor. And it was harder for them. They
were getting -- they couldn’t be going up and down the stairs. They got a good
price for that building. They got very good money for that building. And they
were not -- they were a typical Puerto Rican family that the families lived there all
their life. And all my father wanted was enough to pay the mortgage. So these
families lived there 15, 20 years with my par-- you know, in the building there.
And then when my parents sold, they ended up moving to Winchester and
Division. That was a Puerto Rican neighborhood there. But they moved to a first
floor and then they’ve been there ever since. So it wasn’t -- and it was a good
life. It was a good life. And they worked very hard to get, you know, to get what
they have now. They worked very hard. They struggle but they -- and they
raised six kids and a whole bunch of [01:19:00] foster kids were raised in that
neighborhood. We had a lot of foster kids just coming out -- in and out, in and
53
�out. Some stayed with us three, four years. The rest of them stayed 15 years
with us. They ended up getting married and leaving the house.
JJ:
Your mother was working for foster --
CR:
She just took in emergency foster. We were emergency foster care site. So any
foster kid that was pulled out of their home, they would be sent to our house. So
that’s why we always had the whole third floor. Because there was always kids in
the house. But she made her living taking care of foster kids. So, you know, we
were not -- we -- they did a pretty good life. So I’m at San Lucas, I sometimes
see some of the people I went to school with.
JJ:
What’s your role here? What do you mean --
CR:
Here I’m the Council President and a member of San Lucas and this is a Puerto
Rican church. The founder of this church is the Reverand Jorge Morales. There
was a lot of riots going on around here, a lot of fighting going on in the
community. [01:20:00] A lot of struggle. And I just happened to walk into all that.
And gentrification has taken place in Humboldt Park. It’s sad, but this used to be
a Puerto Rican neighborhood also. And I’m not going to say it is anymore.
There is still Latinos, but it’s not like it used to be.
JJ:
Is the church involved in any activities here? What are some of those?
CR:
We were at one time regarding housing and jobs and there was a lot of -- the first
Black mayor did a lot of campaigning here.
JJ:
You’re talking about Harold Washington.
54
�CR:
Harold Washington. The pastor here was very involved in a lot of social justice
issues and housing taking place and all that. So I guess it just comes with the
territory.
JJ:
Weren’t you connected also with the -- what was your connection with the West
Town Concerned Citizens’ Coalition?
CR:
You know, that one I really wasn’t. I heard about it [01:21:00] because I had
moved in. There was other people that was involved. When I came in here, the
pastor that was here and the assistant pastor that was here, they were involved
in that. I kind of walked into a lot of stuff. So, I remember.
JJ:
But some of the programs that you recently were doing or you’re not doing them
now, but didn’t you have like a food pantry or something?
CR:
Oh no here we had Centro Unida Latina which was an afterschool program that
was started out of this church which they did. It was after school programming.
What they’re doing now, we used to do that years ago. Had the kids here. We
had 60 to 80 kids here. Teach them dancing, teach them how to do rumba,
plena, arts, crafts. We used to just do a lot of things with the kids. It was a safe
haven. This church had a place which was a safe haven for the community kids.
JJ:
And now I see BUILD, Incorporated. Did they use the facility?
CR:
This is -- BUILD works here. I mean, they’re housed here so we can have an
afterschool program.
JJ:
A gang prevention program?
CR:
It’s a gang prevention [01:22:00] but we have an afterschool program. There was
some monies that was at one time with all the violence going around, they
55
�opened up funding for teen reach afterschool programming. So there’s a
program here that’s from after school until six, seven o’ clock at night to keep the
kids off the street. So the program has been here over eight years or longer. So
these kids come here. They do homework, life skills, safe haven in the church.
JJ:
And I believe Carlos or other people are involved in something.
CR:
Yeah, we have a writing class here. My brother is part of --
JJ:
How does that work?
CR:
That one is people that want to write about their life or their past or their life.
There’s a writing class that takes place here on Wednesdays. So they come
together, and they share their stories, and they print some of their stories. And
we had a food pantry here. We have an emergency food; we have a thrift store.
We serve a hot meal. And the community, it’s changing. You’re seeing Blacks,
Hispanic, [01:23:00] and immigrant being serviced in this community. So that’s
now Humboldt Park.
JJ:
Any final thoughts?
CR:
Final thoughts about the Puerto Ricans in Chicago. I never -- I mean I’m just
saying that we -- I had some good memories of Armitage. I had good memories - no, I’m not gonna say they were good memories, but they were memorable
memories. Because you had -- you know we used to know so many people.
Now you look back and it’s -- when we were growing up, it was a community.
Now it is not the same. It is not the same. It’s sad, but those were good times
when we were more together. We, you know, our battles were fought together.
Now everybody’s so dispersed. But at one time the community was great, and
56
�we took care of each other. You know like the saying was it takes a village to
raise a child. That used to happen. [01:24:00] Families would take care of each
other. Now, no it’s not the same. And it’s sad because a lot of our kids do not
know what it is to be in a family like we did. I don’t know. I’m just saying a lot of
these kids don’t have the same -- the same opportunities that we had. We had
nothing but we were more together. We didn’t have a lot. I’m not gonna say we
didn’t have nothing. We didn’t have a lot but there was more family involvement
and there was more strength.
JJ:
Why do you think that that was going on?
CR:
I don’t know it’s the changing -- I think it’s changing when you see a lot of these
young mothers, teen pregnancy has skyrocket. And even if it was teen
pregnancy at our time, the girls were not as crazy and wild as they are now. And
family structure has just fallen apart. So we don’t have that family structure that
we had when we were growing up. We just don’t have it. It’s not there. You
know, if you try to reprimand [01:25:00] a family member, right away they’ll call
DCFS. At that time, you know, if they saw you doing anything in the street, they’d
say, you know what? We would get reprimanded. My mother wouldn’t fight it
and say, “You don’t touch my daughter. You don’t do this.” But we would listen,
or they’ll go and tell you father or anything. You know it was more family-oriented
and the families were more together, and they would protect each other. Now,
not now. It’s very sad. It’s not the same. So I have good memories of growing
up. We had nothing, but it was good ones. What we didn’t have, you know, was
just made up with the surroundings that we were with.
57
�JJ:
Okay.
CR:
Thank you.
JJ:
You said you lived on La Salle; do you remember what address or on La Salle?
CR:
Oh my god it was right on the corner building of La Salle and Superior. La Salle
and Superior. [01:26:00] The corner there was a -- we were on the third floor.
JJ:
That wasn’t the Water Hotel wasn’t it or?
CR:
No it was a three flat.
JJ:
It was a three flat.
CR:
It was a three flat building, and we lived in the third floor. And then from there we
moved to Armitage and Armitage was 1114 West Armitage.
JJ:
What do you remember of that building? That three flat? That neighborhood?
Do you remember anything? You were like five years old.
CR:
I was five.
JJ:
So what do you remember of that?
CR:
Oh my god. La Salle was a busy street. I don’t know if you remember my
brother Carlos Flores, but Carlos came to live with us when Carlos was like 13
and I remember, I will never forget that me and Carlos were crossing the street
on Chicago Avenue. No, we were on La Salle and Superior and we crossed this
busy intersection and Carlos got hit by a car. And I was there. And I saw the
whole incident when that car just smashed into him [01:27:00] and blew him up in
the air and brought him back down. And Carlos was in the hospital for about a
year. But we did not speak any English, so we suffered a lot. We came in the
58
�middle of winter, and I think Carlos ended up coming in the middle of summer like
a couple of years later.
JJ:
Do you know what year that was about or?
CR:
Oh god. I’m going to say maybe ’59, ’60? I want to say. Because I was five
when I came here so we were living --
JJ:
When you were born in ’51 you said.
CR:
In ’51.
JJ:
So ’56?
CR:
’56, ’57 like that. And then Carlos came maybe like a couple of years later and
that’s, you know, and that’s the only thing that I remember. I mean and it was just
a bad scene because we didn’t speak English, and it was just horrible. There
was no bilingual education in school. We came in the middle of winter.
JJ:
What school was that?
CR:
We went to Ogden. First no -- first it was Sexton. Sexton was an all-Black
school. [01:28:00] My -- we would get beat up by the Black kids.
JJ:
Sexton in Lincoln Park?
CR:
No, Sexton around what Cabrini what used to be Cabrini was Sexton school was
on Franklin I think and we were going to school there. And then my mother
moved us out of that school and put us in a school called Ogden. And Ogden
now is a, you know, big, big school. And that was on Clark, Clark and I can’t
remember. It was Clark and Orleans or something? And then from there, then
that’s when we ended up moving on Larrabee and I went to a school called La
59
�Salle. And then from that area then we ended up moving to Armitage where I
ended up going to Waller which is now Lincoln Park.
JJ:
Now La Salle was around Willow or something? And Sedgwick?
CR:
No, no, no. Newberry. We went to Newberry. La Salle was on Sedgwick and --
JJ:
And Willow right?
CR:
And Willow (inaudible). So I know when we got to Lincoln Park, we were -- I was
going to Newberry. [01:29:00]
JJ:
And before you get to Lincoln Park, you’re going to Ogden School, you’re living
on Superior and Chicago -- and La Salle.
CR:
No, Superior and La Salle.
JJ:
And La Salle, okay. And there was -- do you remember that community there?
Were there --
CR:
There was a lot of Latinos, a lot of Puerto Ricans. They were starting to come.
There was a Puerto Rican beautician downstairs. Her name was Clara. Clara
Byron.
JJ:
Clara Byron?
CR:
Byron. She lived -- she had a -- a beauty shop on the first floor on the corner.
JJ:
Where you lived?
CR:
Where we lived at.
JJ:
Right on Superior.
CR:
Superior and La Salle.
JJ:
And then across the street was the Catholic Charities or?
60
�CR:
No, it was -- there was a florist and then it was -- but that time it wasn’t Catholic
Charities. It was something else.
JJ:
I think that florist is still there.
CR:
That florist is still there?
JJ:
I think so. I’m not sure.
CR:
And it used to be -- what used -- across the street was a big building. It’s Cath-it was Catholic Charities, but it wasn’t Catholic Charities at that time.
JJ:
Then, at that time.
CR:
I can’t remember what it was. It was a big building. [01:30:00] It was --
JJ:
Then you had the Water Hotel where we lived. We lived in the Water Hotel.
CR:
Where was your Water Hotel?
JJ:
Right there across from Superior and La Salle. Right there on the other side.
We were on the other side.
CR:
Oh, okay. See I don’t remember. I was only five, six years old then you know.
JJ:
So you were going to Ogden School and then you went to another school near
Cabrini-Green?
CR:
Right because then my parents ended up moving to 1714 North Larrabee which
was Larrabee and Cleveland. And we went to Saint Michael’s church and that
was a Puerto Rican neighborhood then, you know, on Larrabee. And we lived in
the third floor of a three flat with the storefront in the front. And we went to -- do
you remember the boys club that was there? The boys club that was on Willow?
Willow and Mohawk? Orchard. Orchard and Willow. And then across the street
[01:31:00] was Newberry.
61
�JJ:
Newberry School. Kitty-corner to that. Kitty-corner. So what do you remember
of the boys club? I know what the guys remember but what did the girls do?
CR:
Oh the girls just hung out I guess in the boys club. They used to have a
swimming pool. We used to do activities there. And I think --
JJ:
What kind of activities?
CR:
Like there was dances and there was arts and crafts. But I know that -- my
Carlos was more involved. They used to have a club there. The Continentals.
JJ:
The Continentals were there.
CR:
Yeah the Continentals and there but Carlos was part of that. We didn’t. We just
hung out. We were just young kids.
JJ:
So the girls -- the guys had the Continentals and the girls they just went to the --
CR:
Like we would go to the dances maybe, hang out.
JJ:
And who would throw the dances?
CR:
There was -- there was a group of Latinos. I can’t remember who threw the
dances.
JJ:
But you remember it as a Latino community?
CR:
Puerto Rican.
JJ:
A Puerto Rican community [01:32:00] at that time.
CR:
Yes.
JJ:
Okay so then you’re there in -- and you also, you said you went to by Franklin?
What was on Franklin?
CR:
No, we went to Sexton School. It was the Black school. And you remember
Black kids would beat us up.
62
�JJ:
Sexton is on Sheffield.
CR:
Then it’s got to be --
JJ:
So there was Ogden --
CR:
Manierre?
JJ:
Manierre?
CR:
It could have been Manierre.
JJ:
It might have been Manierre yeah.
CR:
Which was near Cabrini. I think Manierre was --
JJ:
Where was Franklin School now? Did you go to Franklin school?
CR:
No, I didn’t go to Franklin school. It was Newberry. No it was Ogden, and I
believe it was Manierre.
JJ:
Okay, I heard of that.
CR:
Because where did you go? You went to --
JJ:
I went to Saint Joseph’s Holy Name Cathedral.
CR:
See we were -- well, we would go to Holy Name Cathedral for -- remember they
used to have Las Hijas de Maria. I did my confirmation or communion there.
JJ:
At Holy Name Cathedral?
CR:
At Holy Name because we used to go to church at Holy Name Cathedral.
JJ:
So there was a -- Las Hijas de Maria at Holy Name Cathedral.
CR:
And we used to go to [01:33:00] catechism there.
JJ:
Okay and what year was that, what year was that?
CR:
That had to be late ’50s, early ’60s, maybe ’61?
63
�JJ:
Okay, around ’61. And so then you moved to -- from there, where did you move
to?
CR:
To 1113 -- 1114 North Larrabee. Which was Larrabee and Cleveland. Which,
Saint Michael’s was down the street.
JJ:
And were you at Saint Michael’s Elementary or?
CR:
No, Carlos got to go to Saint Michael’s. I ended up going to Newberry.
JJ:
Oh you went to Newberry.
CR:
Yeah, we went to Newberry.
JJ:
But you had already made your first communion.
CR:
And everything. It was the Catholic Church. You know, the Catholic Church was
the ones that really brought my parents over here and everything. They --
JJ:
What do you mean?
CR:
You know that they came through like Catholic Charities. It was a charitable
thing, and they brought us over here. And then that’s when my father started
working here.
JJ:
What kind of work was your father doing?
CR:
Factory work.
JJ:
Factory work.
CR:
But my father didn’t [01:34:00] come to Chicago. My father came to Connecticut
to pick tomatoes and cucumbers. And then from there he migrated to Chicago.
JJ:
How did he get to go to Connecticut?
CR:
Because that was the day that they had the bootstrap Muñoz Marín, and they
were looking for people to work the fields like they do now where they have the
64
�migrant workers. So they call for people from Puerto Rico. And my father
couldn’t support all of us. It was like three of us that he was supporting and so
he had to come to the United States and make a living. And then he sent for my
parents -- you know, he sent for my -- not my parents. He sent for my mother
and his kids. And that’s where we ended up on La Salle and Superior.
JJ:
Right from Connecticut to La Salle. Okay. Now did you have other family here?
Did he have other family?
CR:
No. Because -- well my father didn’t live there. My father must have lived with
some other [01:35:00] Puerto Rican family on Oak Street. Do you remember
Oak Street? It was Oak and La Salle. I think he lived with some people there.
And then when my mother came with me and my sister and my baby brother
which is, now they call him Cougar, the little one. Carlos had not come. Then
that’s when we -- he ended up moving to the building there on La Salle and
Superior. Which was a third floor.
JJ:
So he first came to the Oak and La Salle and then to that building.
CR:
To that building. Because he lived in a -- like it was like a man’s room. Like a -what do you call those? He was like a boarder. So, like a room -- they would
rent him a room for the night. But then when my mother came with us, the two
daughters and the son, and my brother was just a newborn.
JJ:
A rooming house or something like that?
CR:
A rooming house. It was a whole bunch -- I think there was a lot of Puerto Rican
guys there. Or a lot of Latinos that lived there.
65
�JJ:
So there were like a lot of men [01:36:00] that were working that came here just
to work.
CR:
Just to work.
JJ:
(Spanish) [01:36:04]
CR:
So from there, we lived on La Salle and Superior and then we ended up moving
on Larrabee. I don’t know why we moved. And then we stayed on Larrabee until
HUD came. And at that time they were building Cabrini-Green. Cabrini-Green
was starting to get built.
JJ:
So you came before Cabrini-Green was built.
CR:
Right. So we saw Cabrini-Green being built. And Cabrini, there was a lot of
Latinos inside Cabrini-Green. They were scattered all over. So Larrabee, so we
were what 17 -- we were 1714 North Larrabee. Cabrini started 1009 North
Larrabee. Then 11-something North Larrabee. So the first projects was in the
1000 block of North Larrabee. That was the projects [01:37:00] that was there on
Larrabee and Alston or Clybourn.
JJ:
Clybourn there.
CR:
Yeah, that was one of the first projects. And then you had Cooley High. There
was a high school there called Cooley High. So we ended up going to Waller
and then some -- the Cabrini-Green kids some went to Cooley and some went to
Waller.
JJ:
But before you get to Waller, you went to Newberry also.
CR:
And graduated from Newberry.
JJ:
So tell me about Newberry.
66
�CR:
Well okay we were going to Newberry.
JJ:
What was that like? And what the population was.
CR:
Puerto Rican. Puerto Rican because it was Puerto Ricans living on Halsted, on
Willow, on Orchard, on Burling. That was a Puerto Rican neighborhood. So we
were going to Newberry and for some reason we ended up moving. They moved
us or transferred us to La Salle. So I graduated eighth grade from La Salle.
JJ:
Oh from Newberry and La Salle is a few blocks east of that. [01:38:00] So why
didn’t you transfer to there?
CR:
I can’t remember what it was. I don’t know if the school was overcrowded or
what. But from Newberry we ended up going to La Salle. And then I ended up -we ended up -- me and my sister ended up graduating from La Salle.
JJ:
Oh so -- okay so you went to Newberry and La Salle were the main schools you
went to. But you also went to Manierre and Ogden.
CR:
Yeah but those were when we were younger. And then La Salle and Newberry
were the two schools that we were like seventh, eighth grade.
JJ:
And what was La Salle like? I mean what was that --
CR:
La Salle was on Wisconsin and --
JJ:
Yeah, exactly, Wisconsin. Or Willow or something.
CR:
Willow.
JJ:
Between Willow and Wisconsin.
CR:
No, let me see. Newberry was on Willow and Orchard. La Salle was on
Menomonee, was a street called Menomonee.
JJ:
Right, it changed to Menomonee.
67
�CR:
And Sedgwick. That’s where La Salle was at. [01:39:00]
JJ:
I think Willow changed to Menomonee or something. But I don’t know. But it
was Menomonee, you’re correct. And so --
CR:
So that was ’60, ’65.
JJ:
’65 and so they were not changing the school, but you don’t know why.
CR:
I believe it was overcrowded or maybe they redistrict, and they move some of the
people around because we were on Larrabee and La Salle. Even though it could
have been the distance, so.
JJ:
Okay, so what do you remember of school? I mean what was school like kind of?
CR:
Well school was horrible because we did not speak English. We did not speak
English. So I remember being put in a corner for I don’t know how many years.
And the teachers -- my name is in Puerto Rico they call me Camila. When I
come here, I came here to Chicago, they changed my name to Carmen. My
sister’s name was Mina, they changed it to Myrna. [01:40:00] So that’s how we
grew up. And then we finally learned English, and we survived the streets. And
the life and then from there Waller. And then I was there from --
JJ:
And what about Saint Michael’s? You mentioned Saint Michael’s.
CR:
Saint Michael’s, my brother Carlos got to go to Saint Michael’s. I didn’t go. But
Saint Michael’s was like kitty-corner of La Salle. But my mother could not afford
to put all of us in a Catholic school, so Carlos I think went for a year, but we
never went to a Catholic school. We would go to church at Saint Michael’s.
JJ:
And when you went to church at Saint Michael’s, how was the church? I mean
where --
68
�CR:
It was a Puerto Rican church. They had a Puerto Rican mass.
JJ:
They had a Puerto Rican mass?
CR:
It was -- yeah. Father -- I cannot remember.
JJ:
Kathrine?
CR:
Father Kathrine was one of them and there was another father there. You know,
White guys that spoke fluent Spanish. And they were part of the Catholic charity,
you know, of helping the Latino families. La Virgen Maria. [01:41:00]
JJ:
So when you say you had Spanish mass, did you have it at the --
CR:
At the big church.
JJ:
You had it at the big church. Okay so --
CR:
And then when the neighborhood started changing, they moved us down to the
rectory, down to the basement. Because then the neighborhood started
changing so there wasn’t as many Latino families.
JJ:
So they moved you to the rectory. But you never celebrated mass in the hall?
They had a hall next door to it.
CR:
No, we celebrated yeah in both. It was moved from the hall across the street
which was Saint Michael’s. It was the hall; it was next door to the church. And
then they moved us to the rectory which was down more in the basement where
the priest lived.
JJ:
Oh so you started in the hall and then you went to the rectory.
CR:
We started at the church. Then the -- the hall across the street. And then from
that hall it went down to the rectory. And so they totally moved out all the Puerto
Ricans that were there. [01:42:00]
69
�JJ:
Why do you think that?
CR:
The neighborhood was changing. The families were not there so they even
stopped the Sunday service. It used to be on record that there was a Sunday
service and then after that it was just --
JJ:
You mean a Sunday service in Spanish.
CR:
In Spanish.
JJ:
But they stopped that later in the --
CR:
In the years.
JJ:
Okay because I tried to look at some records and had some histories and they
said they don’t find that period of time like it didn’t exist. But maybe just those
people didn’t know.
CR:
They probably don’t know but they --
JJ:
They didn’t know. Okay now were your parents involved with like the Caballeros
de San Juan or -- Council Number Three was at Saint Michael’s.
CR:
My father -- my father used to go to the (inaudible) because that was the time
that the Puerto Ricans would get together. So you had El Congreso, do you
remember Carlos Caribe? The Congress used to be on North Avenue and
Larrabee.
JJ:
And what did -- did you used to go there or? [01:43:00]
CR:
Yeah, when we were little we would go to parties. They would have parties there.
JJ:
They would have parties there.
CR:
Yeah, family gatherings. And then they would have baseball. The baseball
league.
70
�JJ:
From the Congreso?
CR:
Yeah. And my father was very active in the baseball league.
JJ:
What did -- did he play ball?
CR:
Yeah, he was a manager.
JJ:
Oh he was a manager.
CR:
They played baseball in Saint -- at Lincoln Park.
JJ:
Okay. So he was the manager of that team?
CR:
Yeah. At El Puerto Boricua.
JJ:
What was your father’s name again?
CR:
Charlie -- they used to call him Charlie Flores but Gonzalo Flores.
JJ:
Gonzalo Flores. And you said Puerto Boricua.
CR:
It was El Puerto Boricua Post Number I can’t remember. But that post was --
JJ:
But did you used to go there to that? What did they do there?
CR:
They had dances, gatherings. You know, Puerto Ricans would gather there. You
know we would be homesick I guess so all the Puerto Ricans would meet there.
JJ:
At the Puerto Boricua. But you don’t recall where that was located or?
CR:
It was on North Avenue and Larrabee. [01:44:00]
JJ:
Right next to the Congreso or?
CR:
The Congreso was right on the corner of North Avenue and Larrabee. If you look
at it now, you would not believe that there was a Congreso there. But it was
Larrabee. So it was the -- one side of Larrabee was like Puerto Ricans and then
the other side of Larrabee was Cabrini. The other side of North Avenue -- so you
had North Avenue dividing the Puerto Rican and the Black.
71
�JJ:
Community. It was the dividing line at that time? And it was also like the road?
Puerto Ricans kept moving west on North Avenue I guess.
CR:
There was a lot of Puerto Ricans, yeah. Willow.
JJ:
Would you see a lot of Puerto Ricans if you went there.
CR:
Families. Sheffield.
JJ:
What were some of the families?
CR:
I don’t remember a lot of the names but you have the Bergel? -- not the Bergels - the Vélez. I remember the Vélez. Do you remember that one of them shot
himself? [01:45:00] He used to be part of the Young Lords.
JJ:
Oh yeah, Chino, Chino they used to call him Chino.
CR:
Yeah. You had Los Peñas, the Peña family. They lived on North Avenue and
Sedgwick. You had the --
JJ:
Someone else mentioned the Peñas.
CR:
The Lugos lived in Cabrini-Green. The Lugos lived in Cabrini-Green. Who else?
I’m trying to remember the big families. The (inaudible)
JJ:
The Pantojas.
CR:
The Pantojas.
JJ:
So now you’re at Saint Michael’s and --
CR:
Church not the school.
JJ:
The church, not the school. But there are activities going on there with the
Caballeros de San Juan or?
CR:
Yeah there was a lot of activities, you know, for Puerto Rican families. They
would do parties and dances, dinners, banquets.
72
�JJ:
At Saint Michael’s?
CR:
At Saint Michael’s.
JJ:
And also the Congreso dinner too. So it was like several organizations right
where Saint Michael’s was at, [01:46:00] at this point. Okay and did you ever go
to any of those retreats that they had?
CR:
I was young. But I think my mother and father did.
JJ:
Okay. Okay. So you were young. Did they keep you in the house or as a young
Puerto Rican woman --
CR:
No, we were like what, 12, 13 on Larrabee. So we played outside. We went to
the boys club. We went to Saint Michael’s.
JJ:
You had a site at the YMCA. Did you go to the YMCA?
CR:
Okay, where was the YMCA at?
JJ:
The YMCA was the other side of North Avenue. Action YMCA.
They had
dances too and they had a swimming pool. But the boys club was on Orchard
and Willow.
CR:
We went more to Orchard and Willow.
JJ:
More Orchard and Willow. Okay you didn’t go to the Action YMCA at all?
CR:
I heard of it, but I can’t remember.
JJ:
Okay.
CR:
And probably was there just don’t remember it. [01:47:00]
JJ:
Okay but you went to boys club. And you did -- the girls did -- basically arts and
crafts?
CR:
Arts and crafts. We’d do --
73
�JJ:
Any teams? Any soccer teams? Anything like that or?
CR:
Could have been, I can’t remember.
JJ:
Okay, all right. But you graduated from Newberry and then where did you go?
CR:
No, no. Not Newberry. La Salle.
JJ:
La Salle.
CR:
Waller.
JJ:
You went to Waller. What year was that?
CR:
’65.
JJ:
1965.
CR:
June of 1965.
JJ:
What do you remember -- now you were in high school you should really have a
good memory.
CR:
No, high school was ’65 to ’69. Yeah because I graduated from Waller in ’69.
JJ:
Okay so now can you describe Waller at that time? Okay and then we’ll stop it
there.
CR:
Okay, Waller was all Puerto Rican.
JJ:
All Puerto Rican. What does that mean?
CR:
Puerto Ricans and Blacks. But it was mostly Puerto Ricans.
JJ:
At that time? [01:48:00]
CR:
At that time. So you had Puerto Ricans living on Burling and you had Puerto
Ricans living on Larrabee. You had Puerto Ricans living on Orchard, Halsted,
Dickens. What else? The whole Lincoln Park. That was a Puerto Rican
neighborhood. I remember the hot dog stand on Dickens -- Halsted and Dickens.
74
�JJ:
Halsted and Dickens, yeah.
CR:
Used to make the best Polishes.
JJ:
Yes. Everybody had credit there. I had credit there. Other guys did. Okay.
CR:
You don’t want to finish this with my father?
JJ:
Testing, one, two, three. Go ahead testing, one, two, three.
CR:
Testing one, two, three.
JJ:
Okay that’s a good sound. All right. So if you could just start with your name and
your date of birth and if you were born here or what town where you were born in
Puerto Rico or your family’s from.
CR:
Okay. My name is Carmen Flores Rance. I was Carmen Flores when I was in
Lincoln Park. But I was born [01:49:00] in Puerto Rico. July 18, 1951. My
parents moved here from Puerto Rico from a town called Guayama in Puerto
Rico. And my parents -- my father came first as every Puerto Rican family had to
-- when the bootstrap thing was happening in Puerto Rico, my father came here
to get a better life. And so then he left my mother and her -- and the kids. But
then when he could send for us, I was five. My sister was six. And we came to
Chicago to live. So I originally am from La Salle and Chicago Avenue. That was
the first Puerto Rican family that I knew, and I was here when I was five. Then
from there we were on Larrabee. Larrabee and Cleveland. And then HUD took
over and moved us out and my parents ended up buying a home. A three flat
building [01:50:00] in Lincoln Park.
END OF VIDEO FILE
75
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/434a24532b50f425b5f9ef8456af7aae.mp4
fa04b9a477f6aadb612efc4394848edb
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives.
The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
spa
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-65
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
2012-2017
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Título
Spanish language Title entry
Carmen Rance vídeo entrevista y biografía
Sujetos
Spanish language Subject terms
Young Lords (Organización)
Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos
Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales
Justicia social
Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago
Renovación urbana--Illinois--Chicago
Relaciones raciales
Source
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-65_Rance_Carmen
Title
A name given to the resource
Carmen Rance video interview and transcript
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Rance, Carmen
Description
An account of the resource
When Carmen F. Rance’s family first came to Chicago from Puerto Rico, she lived at the Water Hotel then moved to Lincoln Park where she grew up. She joined the Young Lords through the Breakfast for Children Program. Her family owned a large apartment building on the corner of Clifton and Armitage Avenue where many other Puerto Rican families lived. Her family was active with Council Number 9 of the Caballeros de San Juan and Damas de María, at St. Teresa’s Church. Today Ms. Rance works as a case manager and has been a lay leader in the San Lucas United Church of Christ for many years.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Urban renewal--Illinois--Chicago
Race relations
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-03-30
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8689aa8d6a00ecd4e822c93a096508da.pdf
0f90896d9ccd518c4700c7f85e9ba0bd
PDF Text
Text
Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: Carmen Tirado Reyes
Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 5/12/2012
Biography and Description
English
Carmen Tirado Reyes is married to Marcelo Jiménez, a proud Hacha Vieja, and uncle of José “Cha-Cha”
Jiménez. She is a well -respected and dedicated housewife who grew up in San Salvador, the barrio of
Caguas where the Jiménez family is from and still lives strong. The original Hacha Viejas were her
husband’s cousins. In the 1940s they moved to Barrio Mula in Aguas Buenas, Puerto Rico, where “Tio
Gabriel,” as he was called, had purchased a large farm, hired workers, and raised his many children.
When work was slow, those children and workers came to Chicago, settling in La Clark in the late 1940s
and early 1950s. Ms. Reyes and Mr. Jiménez came to Chicago over this time as well, later moving to
Lakeview by Wrigley Field, Wicker Park, Humboldt Park, and finally to Winchester and North Avenue
where they purchase a home and remained for many years.
One of Ms. Reyes’s sons became a leader of the Latin Kings. Many of the sons and some daughters of
these new immigrants became leaders of local social clubs or gangs, such as the Latin Disciples, the
Young Latin Organization (YLO), and Latin Eagles. Ms. Reyes now lives in Puerto Rico where she and Mr.
Marcelo Jiménez returned to build their home across from la quebra, or mountain stream, that leads
from La Plaza straight up toward the mountain section of Maracal.
�Spanish
Carmen Tirado Reyes estas casada con Marcelo Jiménez, orgullosa de ser una Hacha Vieja, igual que la
tía de José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. Ella es una esposa dedicado y respetada quien creció en San Salvador, el
barrio de Caguas en donde la familia Jiménez sigue viviendo fuerte. Los originales Hacha Viejas eran
primos de su esposo. En los 1940s so mudaron al Barrio Mula en Aguas Buenas, Puerto Rico, donde “Tío
Gabriel” compro una granja en donde contrato unos trabajadores y creo sus hijos. En los 1940s y 1950s,
cuando el trabajo se fue los trabajadores y niños se fueron a Chicago, ah La Clark. Señora Reyes y Señor
Jiménez se mudaron a Chicago durante este tiempo y luego fueron a Lakeview alado de Wrigly Field,
Wicker Park, Humboldt Par y finalmente a Winchester y North Avenue, donde compraron so propia
casa.
Uno de los hijos de Reyes se hico un líder de los Latin Kings. La mayoría de sus hijos e hijas de nuevos
inmigrantes se hicieron líderes de grupos sociales igual que bandas como los Latin Disciples, los Young
Latin Organization (YLO), y las Latin Eagles. Señora Reyes ahora está en Puerto Rico donde vive in frente
de la quebra con su esposo Marcelo.
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d88da7fa27e1e641015f27f4f0b947ee.mp4
6fd81452893dbfe9a0ca4682b5f98b2a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives.
The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-25
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
spa
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-65
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
2012-2017
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Título
Spanish language Title entry
Carmen Tirado Reyes vídeo entrevista y biografía
Descripción
Spanish language Description entry
Carmen Tirado Reyes estas casada con Marcelo Jiménez, orgullosa de ser una Hacha Vieja, igual que la tía de José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. Ella es una esposa dedicado y respetada quien creció en San Salvador, el barrio de Caguas en donde la familia Jiménez sigue viviendo fuerte. Los originales Hacha Viejas eran primos de su esposo. En los 1940s so mudaron al Barrio Mula en Aguas Buenas, Puerto Rico, donde “Tío Gabriel” compro una granja en donde contrato unos trabajadores y creo sus hijos. En los 1940s y 1950s, cuando el trabajo se fue los trabajadores y niños se fueron a Chicago, ah La Clark. Señora Reyes y Señor Jiménez se mudaron a Chicago durante este tiempo y luego fueron a Lakeview alado de Wrigly Field, Wicker Park, Humboldt Par y finalmente a Winchester y North Avenue, donde compraron so propia casa. Uno de los hijos de Reyes se hico un líder de los Latin Kings. La mayoría de sus hijos e hijas de nuevos inmigrantes se hicieron líderes de grupos sociales igual que bandas como los Latin Disciples, los Young Latin Organization (YLO), y las Latin Eagles. Señora Reyes ahora está en Puerto Rico donde vive in frente de la quebra con su esposo Marcelo.
Sujetos
Spanish language Subject terms
Young Lords (Organización)
Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos
Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Narrativas personales
Puertorriqueños--Vida social y costumbres
Puerto Rico--Autonomía y movimientos independentistas
Idioma español--Relatos personales
Source
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-65_Reyes_Carmen
Title
A name given to the resource
Carmen Tirado Reyes inerview and biography
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Reyes, Carmen
Description
An account of the resource
Carmen Tirado Reyes is married to Marcelo Jiménez, a proud Hacha Vieja, and uncle of José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. In the 1940s they moved to Barrio Mula in Aguas Buenas, Puerto Rico, where “Tio Gabriel,” as he was called, had purchased a large farm, hired workers, and raised his many children. When work was slow, those children and workers came to Chicago, settling in La Clark in the late 1940s and early 1950s. One of Ms. Reyes’s sons became a leader of the Latin Kings. Ms. Reyes now lives in Puerto Rico.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives
Social justice
Puerto Ricans--Social life and customs
Puerto Rico--Autonomy and independence movements
Spanish language--Personal narratives
Language
A language of the resource
spa
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-05-12
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7442af7b350efdfc631df8aa43e3f9da.pdf
2eba57fd0d42b0ebdfc29555c359fafa
PDF Text
Text
Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: Carmen Trinidad
Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 5/17/2012
Biography and Description
Carmen Trinidad’s family arrived in Lincoln Park in the 1950s. She was one of only a few Puerto Rican
families to attend St. Michael’s Church in those days, although the neighborhood had already become
heavily Puerto Rican. She recalls her father’s, Cesario Rivera’s, work as a leader of Council Number Three
of the Caballeros de San Juan at St. Michael’s. She also remembers the way that organizations like the
Caballeros de San Juan and Damas de María started and sustained softball leagues, picnics, social dances
and dinners, retreats, plays, parades, festivals, and the establishment of a credit that still exists to this
day.
�Transcript
CARMEN TRINIDAD:
I was born in Bronx, New York, and I lived in New Jersey,
North New Jersey, ’til about the age of 13. However, we would come back to
Puerto Rico for a year or two ’cause I lived with my grandmother and my other
cousins because, of course, the parents worked, and, being that everybody was
Puerto Rican, you didn’t go to a American or an Anglo-speaking home to be
babysat. So, we would stay with my grandparents, and then -JOSE JIMENEZ:
CT:
And what town was this?
In Isabela. Okay? And then, when I was 13, I came to Puerto Rico. I was in
seventh grade, and my dad felt that it was time for me to come and live with him
because he could offer me something better in Chicago. He had lived in New
York until he got married, and -- because he went to pick tomatoes. That’s how
he [00:01:00] got to New York. And then, from there, he moved to Indiana,
where the steel mills were. There was some family there, and the Puerto Rican
community, as such, came from Indiana to South Chicago to the North Side.
That’s how they migrated, and everybody worked in the steel mill. So, my dad
got married, and then he moved to Chicago.
JJ:
Okay. Let’s backtrack a little bit before that.
CT:
Okay.
JJ:
So, you were born in the Bronx. So, what do you remember of the Bronx at that
time?
1
�CT:
I don’t remember anything because I didn’t live there. I was just born there, and
then I came to live in Puerto Rico --
JJ:
Okay, in Isa--
CT:
-- in Isabela.
JJ:
What do you remember of Isabela?
CT:
Oh, I remember -- oh, my God. That was just so awesome. I remember that we
lived in a house across the street from the school, and there was, like, a irrigation
canal, el canal, and water would [00:02:00] flow through there, and that was our
swimming pool. We would all go, and get in there, and take a -- not a bath
’cause we had water, but it was like a pool, and we would go in there, and we’d
go to school across the street.
JJ:
Okay. (inaudible).
(break in audio)
CT:
Name is Carmen Trinidad. My maiden name was Carmen Rivera Perez ’cause,
here in Puerto Rico, you have to use those names, not your married name. But,
like I was saying, Isabela was wonderful. The school across the street had trees,
almond trees, so that was our favorite thing, to go in there and collect the
almonds from the trees, and then we would break them. We’d crack ’em with a
rock because, of course, we weren’t gonna carry a hammer. But the school only
had two classrooms. [00:03:00] The teachers’ name -- I’m telling you, I can
remember like it was today -- Ms. Avarello and Ms. Ortiz. Ms. Avarello was a
very rich, rich woman. Her husband owned all the sugarcane fields that were in
the valley.
2
�JJ:
So, there were a bunch of sugarcane fields in Isabela.
CT:
Yes, at that time.
JJ:
And Isabela is what part of Puerto Rico? What --?
CT:
It’s on the --
JJ:
The east side, or --?
CT:
The west ’cause San Juan is the east.
JJ:
Okay, San Juan, but it’s up north, around San Juan?
CT:
Up north. It’s right next to Aguadilla, Quebradillas, Camuy. They’re all very
close.
JJ:
All around there. Okay.
CT:
Okay? Anyway, if you went to -- the classes were divided where you went -- first
and second grade went in the morning, third and fourth in the afternoon. Okay?
The following year, they would go three and four and five -- you know, [00:04:00]
and then the last class would go into the town to school. Okay? Because they
couldn’t fit all the grades. But, sometimes, when there weren’t enough students,
everybody was all put together in the same classroom. Okay? So, you might
have had three, four, and fifth graders in the same classroom, but it was nice.
And then, during recess, we could go home ’cause it was like a 15-minute
recess, and I lived right across the street, so, of course, we went home, and our
grandma used to give us coffee. Can you imagine that? We were so little, and
that was the main thing. You drank coffee. And the culture at that time -because, I mean, there was no new technology. The way the culture was, you’d
still drink out of a bottle, and they’d put coffee in there, and we’d come home, lay
3
�on the bed, and drink out of a Coke bottle with the little nipple on it. We used to
drink coffee.
JJ:
In the Coke bottle?
CT:
[00:05:00] Yeah, can you --?
JJ:
(inaudible).
CT:
No, no, no. And it wasn’t Coke. It was coffee. My grandma used to save the
bottles, and that’s how we -- that was our snack at recess. I lived in a home with
my grandmother and my grandfather, and my grandfather still had tobacco
plants.
JJ:
What was your grandmother’s name, and grandfather?
CT:
My grandmother’s name was Aurelia Concepción Concepción. No, Concepción
Feliciano. My grandfather’s name was José Perez Concepción, and they were
cousins, and my grandfather --
JJ:
First cousins or third cousins?
CT:
First cousins.
JJ:
First cousins.
CT:
Let me tell you the history. My grandfather’s family came from Spain, his
parents. Okay. He was born in Puerto Rico, and the family was connected. I
mean, there were cousins. I don’t know how, where -- ’cause I really don’t know
that history too much, but my [00:06:00] grandfather married his first cousin, and
she died in childbirth. Okay? So, then, he married her cousin. Okay? And they
had two children. When she was having her third child, she died. She was my
grandmother’s sister. So, then, he married the sister. All in the family because
4
�everybody lived in a little town, and that’s why, today in Puerto Rico, you hear it
said, “(Spanish) [00:06:31] las Vega.” Okay? Vega was the name of everybody
who lived there. (Spanish) [00:06:37]. Everybody who lived in that little -JJ:
Named after the family.
CT:
Right, and they all married each other, and, you know, was no big thing for
cousins to marry.
JJ:
But this was what time? What period?
CT:
This was my grandparents’ time. My grandfather was born in the 1800s.
JJ:
1800s.
CT:
When I was born, my grandfather [00:07:00] was 80 years old. Okay? My
grandfather died at 110. Okay? So, he lived a long, healthy life, you know? And
he always walked around with a machete, and they used to call him el varon,
meaning he was manly, and everyone respected him. He didn’t know how to
write. He couldn’t write his name. He just made a cross. Somehow, he was
very smart mathematically. He used to do our homework for us. “Oh, how much
is twelve times four?” He’d give you an answer. He had a store, and, during the
Depression, he sold bread. He had this old mule, and he’d put my uncle on one
side of the basket and my aunt on the other, and they’d walk up and down el
barrio, selling a piece of bread for a penny, but a piece of bread at that time was
a big piece of bread for a penny. [00:08:00] And he had his own cows, and we
always had fresh milk, but things change, you know.
JJ:
So, this was a small town where you had the country right around.
5
�CT:
We were in the country. That was considered country. No el pueblo. El pueblo
is the city, but yeah. So, when I was 13, I came to Chicago.
JJ:
Okay. Now, how many siblings? How many siblings?
CT:
I have one sister from my mother from Isabela. On my dad’s side, which is the
side that was in Chicago, I had 10, and one died, so we would have been
cheaper by the dozen, you know? Minus one. But yeah. So, when I came to
live --
JJ:
You didn’t say your father’s name, but I think I (inaudible) --
CT:
No, I haven’t said my --
JJ:
Okay. What--
CT:
-- dad’s name, but my dad’s name was Cesario Rivera García. Okay? And he
was from [00:09:00] Caguas, and he lived in this land that we have today. Okay?
When I went to live in Chicago, we were living on North Sedgwick, down the
block from Lasalle Elementary School.
JJ:
And before we get there, though, we were talking about -- your father was a
tomatero.
CT:
Okay. Well, I’m going to get to that. I’m gonna give you the history. Okay? I’m
just letting you know, we lived in Lincoln Park. Okay? And, for the Puerto Rican
community there, Lincoln Park was St. Michael’s Church, El Concilio Numero
Tres. A little bit about my dad. My dad lived here in Puerto Rico, in this same
land that my husband and I, Ricci and I, are living in ’cause we bought it from
him. But my dad, at the -- [00:10:00] he made his first quarter, like he used to
say, selling bootleg rum, caña, here in Puerto Rico. My dad never could have
6
�gone into the service because, as a small kid here, he cut his finger on one of
those old-fashioned lawnmowers, so my dad was minus a part of his finger. So,
he went to New York to pick tomatoes, and his story was that they were living in
this -- you want to call it a barrack, like an army barrack-type thing, but they had
all these beds, and all these Puerto Ricans were living there, and nobody knew
how to cook. Okay? My dad did. So, my dad started making arroz con
gandules, a little sopa, and all kinds of Puerto Rican good. Eventually, he
[00:11:00] got tired of picking tomatoes, and he hooked up with a family member,
and, from up north, wherever it was that they were picking tomatoes, he came to
live in the Bronx, in New York, and his job, his first real job here in the mainland,
was as a dishwasher in a restaurant.
JJ:
In the Bronx.
CT:
In the Bronx. And that’s when he met my mom. Okay?
JJ:
And your mom’s name?
CT:
My mother’s name was Ramona Perez Concepción. Then, my dad’s -- he had
some family members that live in Indiana. My dad left that job there in New York
and moved to Indiana, started working at the steel mills, and that was the first
community of Puerto Ricans in Indiana.
JJ:
In what town?
CT:
[00:12:00] You know what? I really --
JJ:
East -- was it Hammond, Indiana?
CT:
Somewhere -- where the steel mills are.
JJ:
Where the steel mills are.
7
�CT:
Okay? I have no idea.
JJ:
East Chicago. East Chicago, Hammond.
CT:
East -- probably Chicago, but it’s in Indiana. Not East Chicago, Illinois.
JJ:
Chicago, yeah.
CT:
No, it’s in Indiana. It’s across the border. You cross the border, the street, and
one side was Indiana, and the other side was --
JJ:
So, you went straight from the Bronx there.
CT:
Straight there.
JJ:
Why did he go there? Did he know other people there?
CT:
Yes. He had some family members that told him, “You can work in the steel mills
and make a lot more money than what you’re making --”
JJ:
(Spanish) [00:12:33].
CT:
No, in the restaurant --
JJ:
In the restaurant.
CT:
-- because he had already left the tomato picking. So, when he got to Indiana
that he was working at the steel mills, all these men lived in boarding houses,
you know, rooms, a little furnished room with a bed and whatever.
JJ:
Oh, they had boarding houses.
CT:
No kitchen privileges. So, they would look [00:13:00] for other family members or
people in the community who would cook, and one of them was my stepmother’s
family. So, he went to this house, and he would pay 10 dollars or whatever it
was that they paid at that time. I think it was like three dollars a week to eat, and
my stepmother was the cook, and that’s how they met, and he was living in her
8
�aunt’s house, and her aunt was a schoolteacher because she was bilingual at the
time and spoke English. Okay? All the members of that community, their
children used to go to that school, and her aunt used to be, like, the interpreter
and the teacher.
JJ:
Okay. Can you say what happened to your real mother? That’s your
stepmother.
CT:
My real mother stayed in New York, and she continued on with her life, and I
have a sister [00:14:00] from her. Okay? My mother passed away right before
we moved to Puerto Rico. But that’s how I have family in Isabela and in New
Jersey that I go back to. That’s my real mother’s family. However, I spend more
time with my stepmother’s family than my real family, and, as a result, they’re like
my aunts. They’re --
JJ:
And does she still live in Indiana, or is she --?
CT:
Okay. So, they moved to Chicago. All right? And my dad got a job at Wrigley’s
gum factory.
JJ:
(inaudible).
CT:
Wrigley’s gum. It was on 35th and -- I want to say Ashland. I think it was
Ashland.
JJ:
They were on the South Side.
CT:
Yeah, Ashland, on the South Side. But they lived up north. So --
JJ:
Okay, so they lived --
CT:
-- I didn’t live with them at the time. Okay?
JJ:
They lived up north, and then they went to work there.
9
�CT:
Right. [00:15:00] He went to work on Ashland, on the South Side.
JJ:
Did you live on Sedgwick, or --?
CT:
No, they lived up north. I think it was something like Wheeler or --
JJ:
Weyland?
CT:
Weyland or -- I don’t know. Something with a W. All right. So, then, they saved
enough money -- well, first of all, my dad used to take the bus because, of
course, they didn’t have enough money, but, when he went to work at Wrigley’s,
he was able to buy himself a little car. That was the very first big thing they had.
By that time, she had the three kids, my sister, who follows me, and two brothers.
So, they saved enough money that they were able to buy a house on Sedgwick,
so they were one of the first --
JJ:
Sedgwick and North Avenue.
CT:
Mm-hmm. But, at that same time, there was another community, which was your
family that lived [00:16:00] on LaSalle Street.
JJ:
LaSalle Street. Right, right. (inaudible).
CT:
Okay? Right. So, I can’t talk about that ’cause I never --
JJ:
Lived there, yeah.
CT:
-- lived there, so I’m gonna talk about Sedgwick. So, my dad bought this house
on Sedgwick, and then my mom’s family started moving to Chicago. Okay? Her
sisters. And then, they got apartments.
JJ:
What year was this, about? More or less. More or less.
CT:
More or less.
JJ:
Rough estimate.
10
�CT:
About 1956.
JJ:
’56.
CT:
’57. Okay? Eventually, everybody came. They all lived at my mom and dad’s
house ’cause that’s the way it was. Families would come, and they all lived there
’til they were able to afford an apartment and move on. My stepmother’s name is
Luz María Chévere, so it was the Chévere family [00:17:00] that moved. So,
they bought a house, a building, the Chévere family, on North Mohawk.
JJ:
Your mom is a Chévere.
CT:
My mom’s a Chévere, my stepmom, which I consider like my mom ’cause I grew
up with her, and --
JJ:
’Cause they were big in the El Concilio Numero Tres.
CT:
Okay. So, there were different concilios, okay? It started out with one, two, and
three. Okay? That area became Concilio Numero Tres. Okay? So, my dad
was a very, very religious person, and, of course, he joined the Concilio Numero
Tres, and he was an active person. He didn’t have much school, but he was very
smart. Okay? And his broken English and everything. He became the president
of Concilio Numero Tres. There was a big commotion in that area ’cause all
these families moved in, and they didn’t [00:18:00] know English, and priests
there -- they didn’t want to give them a Mass in Spanish, and they met Father
Kathrein, who was the priest that was a German priest at St. Michael’s.
Somehow, he gave them the sodality hall. The church was here. There was a
sodality hall. It was like a big room. It had a stage. It had chairs. And so,
suddenly, the community --
11
�JJ:
About how many people would fit there, about?
CT:
I would say about -- pushing it?
JJ:
Yeah.
CT:
About 300.
JJ:
About 300, and they had, what? Folding chairs, or --?
CT:
With folding chairs.
JJ:
Folding chairs, okay.
CT:
Folding chairs. And so, that’s when the Mass started. Every Sunday, there was
a Spanish Mass, and it was crowded, and that’s how all the people in that area
joined the Caballeros de San Juan.
JJ:
[00:19:00] But they didn’t want to let them in the regular --
CT:
At the beginning, no. They didn’t want to give ’em -- not to let them in. They did
not have a Spanish Mass, just like in a whole bunch of the other churches in
Chicago. Mass was Mass. You went, and it was in Latin, so what did it matter?
Okay. But the instructions and the preaching, you know --
JJ:
Wasn’t Spanish?
CT:
They wanted a Spanish Mass.
JJ:
So, that was one of the goals.
CT:
That was the first --
JJ:
Goal was to get a Mass in Spanish.
CT:
That was the first thing that they did. Okay? It took a lot. It took people from the
community joining together and demanding this from their church, from their
parish, because, as you know --
12
�JJ:
Why demanding? That’s kind of a strong word.
CT:
It was demanding. They demanded it. It wasn’t just, “Can we have one?” They
grouped themselves together and went to the church. “We want --”
JJ:
To the pastor?
CT:
“We want a Spanish Mass,” and they had to work at it, and [00:20:00] continue,
and continue. Once they had that Spanish Mass and they saw how the
community banded together and did things, they became suddenly a part of the
parish. Okay? The Caballeros de San Juan were acknowledged. This was also
the time that Don Jesus had Los Hermanos de la Familia del Dios.
JJ:
Who is Don Jesus?
CT:
Don Jesus was --
JJ:
Jesus Rodríguez?
CT:
Jesus Rodríguez was my husband’s father’s cousin, I believe. Either they knew
each other or they were related. I really don’t know, but he was also -- how do
you say? Involved in getting this Mass together and whatnot. The Cardinals’
Committee had two priests, and I believe it was Father Mahon and Father
Donahue. They worked at the [00:21:00] Cardinals’ Committee, and they
suddenly became involved with the Caballeros de San Juan city-wide, not just at
St. Michael’s. So, this is when my dad started working in the community and for
the community that he lived in. Lincoln Park was a huge, big community, and it
had different sections. Okay? You have to look at it in terms of -- Lincoln Park
was a parish neighborhood. Okay? You had Immaculate Conception. You had
St. Mike’s. I can’t even rememb--
13
�JJ:
St. Teresa.
CT:
Every parish had their community, and they had their community in terms of
ethnicity because we don’t want to say race. Okay? Ethnicity. St. Michael’s was
a German parish. Okay? But then, suddenly, it became German and Puerto
Rican, [00:22:00] and any extra Latino that was around joined because we had a
Cuban family that was very close and involved in that community. You had
people from South America. It wasn’t just Puerto Ricans, but the majority were
Puerto Ricans. So, from St. Mike’s, we had the Caballeros de San Juan,
Hermanos de la Familia del Dios. Suddenly, throughout the city, baseball teams
were formed from the Cardinals’ Committee. And so, there was a baseball team
for the concilios.
JJ:
The baseball teams came later.
CT:
Yeah.
JJ:
And so, St. Michael’s was a big center for the Caballeros, or no?
CT:
No. Okay. Look at it in terms of -- again, I’m going to go back to the churches
because you have to realize that the community [00:23:00] revolved around the
church. Okay? The headquarters was the Cardinals’ Committee. Okay? The
Cardinals’ Committee was formed to help the Hispanic community from Father
Mahon, Father Donahue, and I can’t even -- Father Kathrein. I can’t remember
all the names. Father Vanecko. I mean, all these priests worked at the
Cardinals’ Committee, and all the churches led back there, all the Hispanic.
Okay? So, they decided they were going to have a baseball team, so Concilio
Numero One made their team. El Concilio Numero Two had their team. Three
14
�had their team. Okay? And they used to have mascots, and what they used to
have were godmothers, la madrina. My husband’s sister was la madrina del
Concilio Numero Tres. [00:24:00] Her dad played ball on it. I never -JJ:
What does that mean, la madrina del --
CT:
It’s a godmother. She was like --
JJ:
(inaudible) picture taken, or --?
CT:
No. She was just there to look pretty, and, you know, everybody had a madrina.
That was the way of giving a girl a --
JJ:
A recognition.
CT:
A recognition, and you had mascots. [break in audio] The little kids were the
mascots, (Spanish) [00:24:25] for the team, right.
JJ:
For they team, and they had --
CT:
And they had their own little uniform. Okay? They got sponsors for the shirts
from --
JJ:
Businesses.
CT:
-- the Hispanic businesses. Okay? All right. So, you had the baseball team.
Then, the next big thing that came out of this whole community, all these
communities, was when -- I forget which pope decided that you were going to
have los Cursillos.
JJ:
Cursillo, okay.
CT:
Okay. And that was like a big retreat. [00:25:00] I don’t know the word for it in
English. I only know the word for it in Spanish, but they had it for the men. It
started out for the men first. What they spoke about in there --
15
�JJ:
Any reason for that, or --?
CT:
’Cause the men were the ones -- the women always stayed home, taking care of
the kids and everything. The men were the ones that -- the shakers and the
movers. Okay? That’s the way it was. So, it started out for the men first. The
women eventually got theirs, but it started out with the men, and they went to the
Cardinals’ Committee, and they had a retreat. I remember my dad being the
cook for these retreats. I remember that my husband made it. His dad and other
people we knew. What was spoken there stayed there. It was like a secret
society, you could say, and they all had a pin. They were (Spanish) [00:25:58].
Okay?
JJ:
[00:26:00] And their purpose was what? I mean --
CT:
To tell you the truth, it was a religious purpose. You went there, and it was, like,
soul cleansing is the only word that I can --
JJ:
So, it was a religious purpose.
CT:
It was a religious experience. I never made one. I would like to some day.
Before I die, I would like to do it, but, unless you went there, you don’t know what
happened there.
JJ:
So, they wanted just to cleanse themselves, or to try to get more people into the
church?
CT:
It had nothing to do with getting more people in the church.
JJ:
Just a --
CT:
That was a personal experience.
JJ:
Personal experience.
16
�CT:
It’s like when you go to confession. It’s a personal experience. It’s spiritual.
Okay? But that was one of the big things. Okay? Now, let me go back. I went
to St. Michael’s Grammar School, and the people that went to Catholic schools at
that time -- the parents really had to work very hard to come [00:27:00] up with
that tuition money. The one blessing was that you paid the tuition for one kid,
and then you had to only pay partial tuition. You know, like, 25 dollars less for
the next one. So, our family, in reality, when we went to school, because there
were so many of us -- I’m the oldest, and I have 10 brothers and sisters behind
me. We really went to school on one tuition. Okay? So, in those days, we were
lucky. Today, you pay for every kid, and you pay for your books, and you pay for
everything. That’s not the way it was then. So, at St. Mike’s Grammar School,
there were not too many Hispanics. Okay? And I’m not gonna say that the nuns
were bad to us because they weren’t, but they were very strict, and I had never
been in a Catholic school before, and I started in [00:28:00] the middle of eighth
grade.
JJ:
Oh, you didn’t start from first grade?
CT:
No. Remember, I lived --
JJ:
But what about your brothers and sisters?
CT:
They all went through -- after kindergarten, they all went through grammar
school, Catholic grammar school. Every single one.
JJ:
At St. Michael’s?
CT:
They started at St. Michael’s, but then we moved out of there, and then it was
Visitation, but my oldest brothers and I graduated from St. Mike’s.
17
�JJ:
Okay, ’cause you started in eighth grade.
CT:
I started in eighth grade. It was a very difficult year because there weren’t, like I
said, very many Hispanics in that school. Okay? There were in the community,
but not in the school. Anyway, I made it through the eighth grade, and then,
when I started in high school, that’s when all of these other kids from different
areas came to St. Michael’s high school. Okay? There were other [00:29:00]
Catholic schools, but St. Michael’s was divided. It had a boy’s side and a girl’s
side, and the only time the girls saw the boys were either through the gym, the
library, or upstairs in the labs, the chemistry and biology lab. You had separate
classes. The School Sisters of Notre Dame ran the girls, and I think the Jesuits
ran the boys. No, it wasn’t the Jesuits. Co-Redemptrix priests.
JJ:
Oh, the Redemptrix priests. I remember.
CT:
So, anyway, what can I say about the community? St. Michael’s sodality hall, the
church sodality hall, was finally -- not given to the Hispanics, but they used it a
lot. They used it for church. They used to have dances there. I mean, and
these were fantastic dances. I remember going to them. I think if I --
JJ:
When you say fantastic, you mean in terms of the [00:30:00] dancing?
CT:
In terms of the dancing, in terms of the -- they got the groups to come there to
play.
JJ:
The different bands.
CT:
Right. I can’t remember the names. I don’t want to give a name that’s not the
one, but --
JJ:
You had dancers like José Rodriguez (inaudible).
18
�CT:
Yeah. They danced. And then, this was the time when salsa first started, so,
you know, it was a big thing. They had the trios that would come and play. They
could actually sell liquor there, and people used to drink. They made money for
their club, for the Caballeros de San Juan. Okay? And they helped with the -how do you say? Buying the shirts for the baseball team, and they used to rent
Liberty Bell. There was a retreat center there, and they used to use it.
JJ:
Liberty Bell (inaudible).
CT:
They used to have all these [00:31:00] excursions, like at Holy Hill. They’d rent a
bus.
JJ:
In Wisconsin?
CT:
Right. And everybody would get on this bus.
JJ:
Was that (inaudible) Wisconsin? (inaudible).
CT:
I don’t know.
JJ:
Or that was another place.
CT:
I don’t remember. I always went on the bus.
JJ:
But Holy Hill -- I remember Holy Hill.
CT:
Holy Hill, Liberty Bell -- there was another place where they had cabins, and you
spend the night for retreats. I went to one of those. There were a lot of things,
okay? The next thing --
JJ:
They had a plane too, right?
CT:
Right. I’ll get to that. Okay. The next thing that I remember was that they
started a domino league. Okay? And they would go to New York to play. They
won trophies, and, I mean, my father-in-law was very good at it. My dad didn’t
19
�play dominoes. My dad knew nothing about dominoes, but he got them
[00:32:00] people on that plane, and he got ’em to New York, and he was like the
golfer. You know, somebody who did everything. And so, they had that. Then -what’s the beer company in Milwaukee?
JJ:
I know (inaudible) old Milwaukee, right? They got past blue ribbon.
RICCI TRINIDAD:
Anheuser-Busch?
JJ:
Anheuser-Busch?
CT:
Anheuser-Busch. Okay. How they hooked up with them beats me, but, every
year, Concilio Numero Tres had a trip out there, and they treated you to the beer,
to this huge luncheon, because they used to sponsor the parades and things like
that. Okay?
JJ:
The Puerto Rican Parade?
CT:
Right. That hadn’t happened yet, but, because of the domino league and
everything, they got -- I went.
JJ:
[00:33:00] It led to that. It led to that.
CT:
Yeah, it led to the (inaudible). Oh, it was fantastic. It was really a trip that
everybody died to go on. Few were selected, but --
JJ:
And your father --
CT:
My dad --
JJ:
-- Cesario Rivera was organizing that.
CT:
Organizing that, along with some of the other people.
JJ:
And the Chéveres, and the (inaudible).
20
�CT:
Exactly. So, what happens? There’s this huge, big community in Chicago, and I
believe there were 13 councils if I’m not wrong.
JJ:
About that, yeah.
CT:
I think there was 13. Anyway, people didn’t know how to go get a loan. Okay?
First of all, they didn’t have enough collateral, but what did they do? They
formed the first credit union for Puerto Ricans, Latinos, in Chicago, and it was my
dad --
JJ:
And it still exists today.
CT:
It exists but not the same way.
JJ:
(inaudible).
CT:
They were bought out. [00:34:00] Okay? But you became a socio. Okay? It’s
like a (Spanish) [00:34:04], a co-op. You became a member. You had to put so
much money into their credit union, and then you could go and ask for a loan.
Okay? Not a big thing. They had the money saved and everything. Everybody
trusted everybody in those days, and, sure enough, everybody had a member.
My dad was number three. His card and his number to this day is number three.
Okay? And it grew, and it grew, and it grew, and then, you know, when you get
so big -- and people were lent money to put a down payment on a house, buy a
car. When I went to college, I needed to have root canal done, and I needed to
have fillings done. I went ’cause I was a member, and I got me a loan.
[00:35:00] Okay? I paid it back. It took me a long time to pay it back, but, as a
college student, I had no money. My parents didn’t have money to get me the
root canal work, and it was important that I had that done, so --
21
�JJ:
And you personally knew the bankers.
CT:
That was the other thing. Okay? But I couldn’t go to my dad to ask him for the
loan. I had to go to the treasurer and say, “I need a loan, and I need it for this,”
and I had to sign papers and everything. All right.
JJ:
But I didn’t mean you personally, but most of the people knew the bankers.
CT:
Everybody knew everybody, and everybody knew you borrowed money, and they
knew how much, and they knew if you paid or not. That was the thing, that, you
know, you weren’t gonna be late because you lived in that community. As it got
bigger, okay? They had to go through the D-- what is it? FDIC, and banking,
and whatnot, and it became a legal thing, [00:36:00] and they even had -- at the
beginning, their office was at the Cardinals’ Committee, okay? Then, they
bought a building on Fullerton, okay?
JJ:
In the west -- okay, where they’re located now, or --?
CT:
Yes. Okay? And it got bigger, okay? So, my family was still running that, okay?
In terms of the president of the credit union was my cousin, Jeanie Chévere.
Okay? And she ran on Washington’s ticket in Chicago. She ran --
JJ:
Harold Washington.
CT:
Mm-hmm. And they lost. She lost the position. She didn’t win, but he made her
executive of CTA or whatever it was. So, okay. My cousin has [00:37:00] always
been in politics. Today, due to the fact that she worked politics in that community
and on the North Side, she was elected to be a judge, and now she’s at federal
court. She started as traffic --
JJ:
So, she’s a federal judge today.
22
�CT:
Yeah. I shouldn’t say federal. She went from traffic court to doing the --
JJ:
But is she a judge, or does she work at federal court?
CT:
No, she’s a judge.
JJ:
(inaudible).
CT:
I went to her swearing.
JJ:
And this is your --
CT:
My cousin. I have pictures of who all these people are. Okay? Anyway. So,
getting back to the credit union. The credit union became very large. As you had
kids and they got older, you opened up an account, and you just put five dollars,
ten dollars. By the time -- my sister, my younger sister, didn’t cash her [00:38:00]
credit union money in until she had triplets, and she came to Chicago, and -- how
was it? She came to Chicago, and she says, “Oh, Mom, it’s the boys’ birthday.”
You know, there was three of ’em. And so, she took the money out of the credit
union ’cause my mom was on it, and she says, “Here, this is your life savings,”
and it was enough to give ’em a birthday party and have money left over. So,
you can see how it -- but that was sold, and it became like a bank. It was sold.
It’s no longer run by the Caballeros de San Juan.
(break in audio)
CT:
The credit union was sold. To who, I don’t know. The building is still there, and
people still have accounts there, but it’s more like a bank now. It’s not a credit
union, and [00:39:00] it’s not the Caballeros de San Juan because Caballeros de
San Juan -- I don’t know if they exist any longer or what. You would have to go
back --
23
�JJ:
I think they became the Hermanos, the Hermanos (inaudible).
CT:
No. Hermanos de la Familia del Dios is something totally, totally different.
JJ:
So, what happened to the Las Damas, Las Damas de María of St. Michael’s?
CT:
Las Damas --
JJ:
Do you know anything about them, or --?
CT:
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I’m just going through little things that I remember. I’ll get to
that part too. Okay. So, you have the credit union. You had all these trips. You
have the domino league, the baseball league, and the Caballeros de San Juan.
Now, they were very famous during -- they used to show movies. Where they
got these movies from, I don’t know, but you would go to one of the concilios,
and let’s say Concilio Numero Uno had a big dance. Concilio Numero Quatro
showed a [00:40:00] movie, and you went, and you actually saw a Spanish
movie. You paid your 50 cents or whatever it was at the time.
JJ:
A regular movie? This is not a religious movie.
CT:
No, a regular movie. You know, they brought in movies.
JJ:
So, they were using culture, regular Puerto Rican culture, with the church
(inaudible).
CT:
Right. Right. Okay. So, then, it was the movies.
JJ:
So, people would pay, and they would see a movie?
CT:
A movie, and this --
JJ:
At the hall?
CT:
At this hall or at a different hall from the Caballeros de San Juan.
JJ:
’Cause they had halls in all the churches.
24
�CT:
Right. Then --
JJ:
But some of those halls were because they didn’t want ’em in (inaudible).
CT:
No, no, no. The halls were because they -- how do you say? It was used. It was
like a hall. You go in, and you do parties, and you --
JJ:
But the Mass was celebrated in (inaudible).
CT:
In a different place. Okay. So, getting back to the activities they did, [00:41:00]
during Lent, they used to put on this big production. Okay? And it was The
Passion of the Lord, and, when you talk about The Passion, it was taken right out
of the Bible, and they had the spears, and they had the ketchup they would throw
out, the blood. It looks really, really real, and you had the cross. People were
actually dressed like them, and you had all these seamstresses making all these
outfits for this play. Came Christmas time, and you had the Nativity, and it was
reenacted, Mary going into labor and the baby being born.
JJ:
So, you had two plays --
CT:
Yeah.
JJ:
-- a year. Two plays a year.
CT:
Mm-hmm.
JJ:
And who was part of these plays?
CT:
Whoever wanted to try out and be part of it.
JJ:
So, just any normal --
CT:
Any Latino in Chicago, [00:42:00] the whole area of Chicago because everybody
knew who was going to put on the play, and you’d go, and if you wanted to help
or be part of it.
25
�JJ:
And then, did you have professional theater people?
CT:
No. No. No. No.
JJ:
It was just anyone --
CT:
This was just the community.
JJ:
’Cause it looked very professional, but it was two plays a year.
CT:
Two plays a year. It looked professional, and I’ll tell you again, they made their
costumes, or they rented them, or -- you know, it wasn’t so much what they said.
It was how it was done. Okay? I remember, for the Christmas play -- I was in
one of the Christmas -- I was the angel. All right? I remember the wings were
out of cardboard, and they were covered, and then you sewed the material, and
you put the glitter, and -- beautiful wings. I still have my picture as an angel, and
it was just gorgeous, and, when you saw everything, oh, my God. It was
beautiful, but it was done by the community. No outside [00:43:00] help. All
right? So, they had that. Now --
JJ:
So, now, who would come to see it? There was a community, but, I mean, about
how many --?
CT:
It was --
JJ:
About how many people?
CT:
It was, again, every president, vice president. They would go to the Cardinals’
Committee for a meeting, and everybody knew what was going on in their
churches, and they’d come back and say, “Oh, there’s gonna be a dance in
Concilio Numero Tres such and such a day. I have the tickets. You want them?
I have the tickets for the play. How many tickets do you want?”
26
�JJ:
So, they would fill up the place.
CT:
Oh, yeah.
JJ:
But I’m trying to figure out --
CT:
It’d fill up -- standing room.
JJ:
Let’s say the Christmas play when you were there.
CT:
Mm-hmm.
JJ:
About how many people? A hundred? Two hundred? Three hundred?
CT:
You know, I can’t go back and tell you. I mean, I was a kid.
JJ:
But it wasn’t --
CT:
It looked to me like thousands.
JJ:
Okay, (inaudible) like thousands.
CT:
It was always packed, and people were standing in the hall, windows, looking. I
mean --
JJ:
[00:44:00] Because, at that time, the Lincoln Park community had a lot of Puerto
Ricans.
CT:
It had a lot of Puerto Ricans. Okay? And not only that, but remember, I’m going
back to the church. The church was city-wide, so city-wide people would come
see these plays, just like, city-wise, people would come to the dances.
JJ:
Now, was St. Michael’s a unique (inaudible)?
CT:
St. Michael’s was one of the most -- how should I say? Active councils. Okay?
It was the most active council, okay? Because you had so many good people. It
was Calvino (inaudible). It was my dad, my uncles, Rick’s dad, Don Jesus.
There’s a lot of people. Okay? A lot. A lot of people. What else can I tell you
27
�about the community in that area? Because, again, I don’t want to speak about
the [00:45:00] South Side ’cause that’s totally -JJ:
Yeah, that’s a different --
CT:
The Puerto Ricans moved from there --
JJ:
Around what year?
CT:
-- to the South Side and from there up north --
JJ:
Around what year?
CT:
I will tell you it was in ’66.
JJ:
’66, they moved from there to the --
CT:
South Side.
JJ:
South Side. To Visitation Parish, that area?
CT:
Right. And then --
JJ:
Which is on 60 --
CT:
-- from Indiana, from East Chicago --
JJ:
Visitation is what? On 63rd?
CT:
On 55th and Peoria.
JJ:
55th and Peoria, okay.
CT:
What happened was the people from South Chicago moved to 55th Street. They
had a realtor. Okay? His name was Ernito Gómez.
JJ:
Ernito Gómez, okay.
CT:
Okay? He was the Puerto Rican realtor. He moved them there. “(Spanish)
[00:45:55]. There’s a house here. It’s a perfect house for you.”
JJ:
[00:46:00] (inaudible).
28
�CT:
Eugenio Gómez.
JJ:
Eugenio Gómez.
CT:
Okay?
JJ:
But he was from Indiana or from --?
CT:
He eventually came from the South Side of Chicago to that area.
JJ:
To (inaudible).
CT:
They were south, real far south, East Chicago. They moved to 55th.
JJ:
What year was that?
CT:
In the ’60s.
JJ:
In the ’60s, okay. Okay.
CT:
A lot of the Puerto Ricans on the North Side who knew Ernito -- like, Ernito and
my dad were compadres, okay? He moved my dad. I’m telling you, he found my
dad this huge, big house on the South Side, a big boarding house. He moved
him there. And then, because my dad moved there, my aunt and uncle moved,
and everybody moved south.
JJ:
So, why were people moving, though? I mean, besides the real estate guy, why
did people --?
CT:
Cheaper. Bigger homes. Where we lived, there was only three bedrooms,
[00:47:00] and then, we were 10 kids. Okay? There was no room. All right?
And so, the time was good to sell. My dad should have never sold that house
because, today, it would be worth a fortune.
JJ:
You’re talking about the house on Sedgwick?
CT:
On Sedgwick. Lincoln Park.
29
�JJ:
So, the time was good to sell at that time.
CT:
Time was good to sell.
JJ:
So, a lot of Puerto Ricans were selling at that time?
CT:
They were selling and moving south or moving far north.
JJ:
’66, 1966.
CT:
Okay. Because, remember, there was Waller School south of North Avenue, and
then there was one on --
JJ:
(inaudible) Franklin?
CT:
There was one on Armitage, another high --
JJ:
The one on Armitage was Waller. Waller.
CT:
Waller.
JJ:
It was on Armitage.
CT:
Okay, so, which one was the one further south? Margaret went there to --
JJ:
To Cooley?
CT:
Cooley.
JJ:
Cooley.
CT:
Okay. So, remember --
JJ:
Margaret went to Cooley?
CT:
Yeah.
JJ:
Okay, Cooley --
CT:
To become a beautician.
JJ:
Cooley High, okay.
30
�CT:
Okay, so, [00:48:00] remember, you’re from Waller, and you’re Cooley, and
you’re in the middle. You want to get out. The neighborhoods -- the border lines
were changing. The Hispanics were afraid. Okay? You couldn’t move east
’cause that’s already blocked from you.
JJ:
Why?
CT:
’Cause it was white.
JJ:
Okay, east was white.
CT:
Right, east -- by the lake.
JJ:
So, we’re talking about race and ethnicity.
CT:
We’re not talking about that. We’re talking about economy.
JJ:
Economy, okay.
CT:
Economy, okay?
JJ:
So, the east was rich.
CT:
East was the lake.
JJ:
Rich white.
CT:
Right. How could you move to a high rise? How could you buy a house on -what was that street called? The one before the lake.
JJ:
Clark Street.
CT:
Clark. You know? It was money. If you moved further west, okay? It wasn’t
considered [00:49:00] good.
JJ:
Why was that? What was on the west?
CT:
That was ethnicity.
JJ:
That was ethnicity.
31
�CT:
That was racial, not ethnicity. That was racial. Puerto Ricans didn’t want to
move where the Blacks were. Okay? So, they had one of two choices. Either
go north or go south.
JJ:
Okay. And that’s what they did.
CT:
Exactly. They either move up to the North Side, or they move to the South Side.
That was it.
JJ:
So, they either went to Lakeview or Uptown or --
CT:
Uptown.
JJ:
-- they went west to the Humboldt Park --
CT:
Right.
JJ:
-- or they went south.
CT:
Even Humboldt Park at that time wasn’t considered to be good. Okay?
JJ:
Because there was not Puerto Ricans at that time.
CT:
No, it was Puerto Rican. It was Puerto Rican --
JJ:
But it was --
CT:
-- but -- economy. Remember, economy has a lot of things to do with crime.
JJ:
Right, so it was poor. It was poor.
CT:
It was poor.
JJ:
It was poor, okay.
CT:
Okay? So, you either moved north, or you either moved south. My dad moved
south, not because of --
JJ:
Because (inaudible).
32
�CT:
-- economy or anything. It was because the house was big. A 19-room house.
How could you go [00:50:00] wrong? And you have 11 kids.
JJ:
Nineteen rooms? That many rooms?
CT:
It had 19 rooms, all together.
JJ:
And how much was the house?
CT:
I don’t know. I don’t know. My parents’ financial status at that time was not
shared with the kids. Anyway, so --
JJ:
What did your father do before (inaudible)?
CT:
My dad worked at Wrigley’s gum company.
JJ:
Oh, yeah, Wrigley’s gum company. That’s right. That’s right. I’m sorry.
CT:
Okay. Okay, so, we moved south at that time, but, getting back to the Lincoln
Park area, okay? Again, like I said, the church was the pillar of the community.
Everything you did revolved around the church. All right? So, the Puerto Rican
community at St. Michael’s suddenly became part of the church, so there was a
carnival every year. Okay? And every [00:51:00] organization in the church had
to have a booth, and you ran the booth, and whatever the booth made, you
know, was -- how do you say? Oh, this group got so much. Okay? So, the
Puerto Ricans make Puerto Rican food. They sell it there, and, sure enough,
one year, they were the ones that made the most money. Okay? So, that was
like a plus, but, at that carnival, everybody came, and that was one of the
activities that pulled the whole community from St. Michael’s together.
JJ:
The whole -- all the blocks around.
33
�CT:
Everybody. Whatever organization you belonged to, ’cause you had to work it,
and you had a --
JJ:
So, it slowly became more and more Puerto Rican at that carnival ’cause it was a
yearly --
CT:
No, St. Michael’s never became more Puerto Rican. Okay? It never became
more German. [00:52:00] It stayed the same way it was.
JJ:
For years?
CT:
For years. Okay? Once I moved out of there, they even sold the boys’ high
school and made -- the rectory. The high schools were torn down. It was sold,
okay? So, the church stood, but not the school and not the sodality hall. All of
that was sold. Okay? Became condos. You know, I’ve never been back there to
see it, but this is what I’ve been told. Okay? At that time, one of the things was
you went to -- there’s a hospital, Children’s Memorial Hospital, and, every time a
child got sick, that’s the only hospital everybody knew, Children’s Memorial,
’cause the adults didn’t go to the hospital. It was the kids, [00:53:00] and that
was a famous hospital to take care of the children and get them vaccinated and
whatnot. They had free clinics where you could go. My dad did the grocery
shopping, and he used to go to the A&P. All the Puerto Ricans went to the A&P.
JJ:
Right on North Avenue, or --?
CT:
It was right there on Sedgwick Street. Okay? Closer to North Avenue. It wasn’t
that far away.
JJ:
Were there other businesses on North Avenue that were Puerto Rican?
34
�CT:
No, I don’t remember any. To tell you the truth, I don’t remember any on North
Avenue.
JJ:
But I know they had a theater, Puerto Rican theater.
CT:
Yeah, I don’t remember on North Avenue. Everybody shopped at the A&P, and
you got stamps.
JJ:
You never went to (inaudible) on North Avenue?
CT:
No. Well, that’s -- when? Back in those days or now?
JJ:
No, no. That wasn’t in those days.
CT:
No. I don’t -- you know. [00:54:00] The A&P. Getting back to the A&P.
JJ:
Let’s get back to the A&P.
CT:
They gave you these little green stamps. Okay? And all the Puerto Ricans were
collecting --
JJ:
S&H. S&H.
CT:
The S&H stamps.
JJ:
Yeah, I remember.
CT:
You remember that?
JJ:
I remember.
CT:
Everybody collected the S&H stamps. Okay? And then, you went, and you
cashed them in at -- Goldblatt’s, was it?
JJ:
Yeah, right.
CT:
Okay.
JJ:
Right. Right.
35
�CT:
I got my first set of dishes when I got married from those stamps, and my dad
bought -- with S&H stamps at Goldblatts, he bought me a set of dishes. I still
have ’em. Anyway, long story, but, anyway, I still have those dishes, and they
were from S&H, and everybody -- if you needed one stamp to fill up your card so
you could get something, you would ask somebody, “Hey, you went to the store.
I just need one.” You know? So, that was like a trade-off between the [00:55:00]
people in the community, a stamp. The other thing they used to sell was
(Spanish) [00:55:04]. I don’t know if you remember that.
JJ:
Yeah, (Spanish) [00:55:09]. You put them -- how do you say--?
CT:
There was a card, and you would open it, and, whatever that card said, you paid,
and then you might get a gift. I forgot what it was called, but that was a big thing,
okay? I mean, that was a really big thing. The other big thing in the community
at that time, okay? And I’m talking about before I was 16 ’cause, at 16, we
moved to the South Side. Okay? The other big thing in the community -- okay,
you had your S&H stamps. You had (Spanish) [00:55:48]. Oh, my God. I was
gonna mention something, and it just disappeared. All right. The church
[00:56:00] women ’cause that’s a big thing. Okay? Most of the women stayed at
home and took care of the kids if there was a lot of kids, and they would babysit
for each other and whatnot. Okay? In our house, my mother never went
anywhere. She went to church, and we all had to go with them, and that’s when
you put on your Sunday shoes ’cause you only had two pairs of shoes. Actually,
three. You had your gym shoes around the house, you have your pair of shoes
for Sunday school or when you went out, you know, church, and you had your
36
�school shoes, and you had a uniform for school, and, on Sundays, everybody
went to church together. And you did not misbehave because you got pinched,
and [00:57:00] you had to stay awake. So, like I said, my mom didn’t go
anywhere, but my dad, on Sundays -- he always wore a suit to church. Every
Sunday, he was always dressed up, and, during the summer, my mom would
help him make sandwiches, and -- loaves of bread, and either ham or -- and
cheese and whatever. The sandwiches were -- and they would be cut in half,
and they would be wrapped, and he’d take this huge, big cooler, and he’d go to
Lincoln Park and give it to the baseball players. Okay? I never could figure that
out.
JJ:
In Lincoln Park, where they played?
CT:
In Lincoln Park. My dad was very, very generous. That was his team from the
Concilio Numero Tres, and he’d bring ’em these big things of Kool-Aid, and we
never lacked for anything in our house ’cause my dad was a hard
worker,[00:58:00] but I could never understand until I was older. I would say,
“Man, he’s making all these sandwiches and everything and taking --” It was a
matter of being a little jealous, I guess. You know, my dad was so generous to
everybody. Okay? Somebody needed 10 dollars, take the 10 dollars and give it
to ’em. Well, it’s like, okay, you got 11 kids. What’s the thing? Eventually, I
understood what it was. He was very, very religious, very caring, very generous,
and he truly cared about everything in the community, about his Caballeros de
San Juan, concilio. He was president. This was his whole life. Then, the big
37
�thing in the community came back as I was talking. Okay? Was la bolita. Okay?
La [00:59:00] bolita is the Chinese numbers game. I don’t know how you call it -JJ:
Los chinos, los chinos.
CT:
The Chinese.
JJ:
Yeah, that’s what you call ’em, los chinos. (inaudible)
CT:
Yeah, la bolita. They’re the ones that roll a number or you play a number. So,
my dad would go to the bolitero. He loved to do that. Okay? And he would play
a number, and he never won when he --
JJ:
And this is like an underground lottery.
CT:
Yeah, it’s a lottery. It’s the rackets. It’s like you see on TV. They’re going to the
numbers people.
JJ:
The numbers. The numbers, yeah.
CT:
Okay? Anyway, my dad used to play that. Who the bolitero was --
JJ:
And it was all over the community at that time.
CT:
All over, and everybody played.
JJ:
Everybody played. Everybody played.
CT:
I mean, from the time that you were --
JJ:
It was announced on the radio too, I heard.
CT:
The numbers came out on the radio. Of course. You knew. I don’t know how
they did it, but, anyway. So, my dad would play this, like, religiously. Okay?
[01:00:00] He never won money when he had money. Okay? Never, never won
when he had money. When we were most desperate, like at Christmastime,
Easter, Mother’s Day, my dad always won, and he won big. I couldn’t believe it.
38
�Then, I knew what my dad was doing. My dad was giving back what he had
received, and that’s what he taught us. You help other people. You volunteer.
We’ve all done volunteer work. My brother Louie, he does volunteer work every
year from his church. He goes to Mexico, to the Habilitad for Humanity.
JJ:
Habitat for Humanity.
CT:
Yeah, Habitat. And --
JJ:
That’s your brother.
CT:
My brother. And he pays for his own plane ticket, for (break in audio) everything
there, and he takes a week’s vacation, and he goes, and he does that. He’s
done [01:01:00] it with his wife, and, lately, he’s been doing it by himself. Okay?
But he learned that. All of us have done volunteer work. So, eventually, I knew,
you know, but, again, it came from the community. You help the people in the
community. It was very hard for us to leave that house. Okay? It was very hard
for us to leave our roots because this is where everybody had grown up.
Everybody had gone to school there. So, we continued. The three oldest did
graduate from St. Michael’s, but then we moved to the South Side.
JJ:
So, this was your roots. I mean --
CT:
To me, even though I only lived there, like I said, from the time I was 13 to 16,
three years -- but those were the three years of my life that I remember as being
the greatest. We walked to North Avenue Beach. [01:02:00] You didn’t have to
worry about anybody mugging you, or robbing you, or anything. My stepmother’s
mother, my grandmother, she babysat everybody. She used to take the buggies,
and the old -- I was the oldest, and my cousin Jeanie. And then, everybody
39
�would help everybody, and we’d be the guards. “Come on. Let’s go. Let’s go.”
And we’d carry these sacks of sandwiches and everything, and there was this
lady who didn’t know how to speak much English or anything, but she risked
going to the beach. Okay?
JJ:
And there were more Puerto Ricans?
CT:
There were more Puerto Ricans there, and you met everybody you knew there
’cause everybody was babysitting. (phone rings) [Ricci called Junior?]. Anyway,
so --
RT:
That’s your phone.
CT:
I know. He’s calling here, and he’s going to keep calling, so --
RT:
What does he want?
CT:
I don’t know. [01:03:00] Anyway, so, we’d go down to the beach. Okay. We’d
go to the zoo. The zoo was free.
JJ:
The Lincoln Park Zoo.
CT:
Okay? They had the little canoes in the -- you know? You were never afraid to
do any of that. Okay? So, anyway, getting back to the women, like I started,
there was two organizations in the church that women belonged to: Las Damas
de María y Las Hijas de María, the -- I want to call the -- the Madam, you know,
the older women. Once you were married, you were considered old already, so
you belonged to that group. Okay? Las Esperanzas wore this green sash with a
medal.
JJ:
That was the ones in training, or --?
40
�CT:
Those were supposed to be the young girls, unmarried girls. [01:04:00] You
were representing -- you dressed in white, and you had this green metal.
JJ:
The virginity --
CT:
Virginity. Okay?
JJ:
The virgin --
CT:
Because that was a big thing in the community.
JJ:
What do you mean?
CT:
If you got pregnant or if you had sex at that time, it was like, “Get out of the
house. We don’t want to have nothing to do with you.”
JJ:
(inaudible).
CT:
(inaudible), the -- everything. So, you had to watch whatever you did. My sister
and I walked a strict line. Okay? Because everybody knew my dad. Everybody.
And so, if you went anywhere, they saw you, he’d know, and the only thing in this
world you didn’t want to do was embarrass your dad.
JJ:
Your family and your dad.
CT:
Okay? I mean, culturally, that was the thing. So, you wore this medal, and it was
such an honor because this was the Sunday. They had it on Sundays. Every
Sunday was a different group. So, all the girls would -- you’d try to outdo
everybody [01:05:00] with your skirt, and your blouse, and your hairdo, and then
you had to put your hair up so they could see that you had your medal, and you’d
walk down. It was a procession. And then, at that time, when you went to
church and Mass, you had to have something to cover your head. All right? So,
41
�it was on Sundays that it was your turn. You didn’t wear that little thing. You
wore your mantilla, the nicer ones you had.
JJ:
Mantilla?
CT:
Yeah, and you wanted --
JJ:
A lot of girls wore the mantillas?
CT:
Yeah, we had the mantillas ’cause, at the time, you had to cover your head, you
know? They weren’t those big, long, elegant ones, but you had one. So, that
was for the young girls. The older women, I think they had blue. I can’t recall,
but they also had a medal, and they dressed, and they had their groups.
Eventually, they had a cursillo for the ladies. Okay? The moms went. And so,
you know, we were progressing in [01:06:00] the church too. There was no birth
control to use. Very few people used birth control. Okay? The church taught
you rhythm. Go to the rhythm, and that didn’t work in our house because there
was a lot of us. Okay? The Hispanic families were very large. Six kids, five
kids. We were ten. And, again, culturally, you didn’t use birth control. All right?
That’s a lot of mouths to feed. So, the females had to -- how do you say? Adjust
to cooking for all those kids on whatever there was. So, I remember, in my
house, we ate rice. We ate beans. We had salad, green beans, corn, and your
main meats were chicken, pork [01:07:00] chops, and bistec. Okay? And, when
you ate, you had one piece of meat, a lot of rice and beans to stuff you, and your
salad, and the big joke was, you know -- not in my family, but in another family
was you hurried up and you ate your meat in case somebody came because the
42
�parents would give your -- they’d give you something else, but they’d give your
food to the adults that came.
JJ:
Right. Right. To the visitor.
CT:
To the visitors. They always had room in their homes for anybody who came to
spend the night. It didn’t matter if all the kids slept in one bed, but your company
had room. Not too many women were -- how do you say? Took the risks that
my stepmother and my grandmother did. I admire them very, very much. My
mom learned to speak English. All right? [01:08:00] But there was one rule in
our house. You didn’t speak English. You had to speak Spanish. I guess, as
time went on, ’cause she had so many kids, you know, the rule -- how do you
say? Was --
JJ:
Changed a little.
CT:
-- changed, okay?
JJ:
Adjusted?
CT:
The younger ones spoke English. Okay? But she never spoke English to us in
the house. Never. She always spoke Spanish so you understand. We all
understand it. The younger ones --
JJ:
That’s pride in our culture?
CT:
No. That was -- why are you gonna speak English? Her feeling was, “I got to
speak Spanish so my kids can understand.” Okay? So, that was one other
thing. My grandmother -- she was a funny lady. She was very bright, very
loving, and she loved school, and she could talk up a storm. She’d talk to you
about everything. There was [01:09:00] nothing -- you know, you could talk to
43
�her about sex. And I’m not talking about -- just about, “Grandma, what is this?”
And she would tell you very calmly, explain it to you. So, she went to Tuley High
School. Where was Tuley?
JJ:
On Ashland, around there.
CT:
That’s where she went. She went to learn English, and somebody would take
her every night and pick her up.
JJ:
So, she would go from Sedgwick, or --?
CT:
No. She lived on Mohawk.
JJ:
On Mohawk at that time. Okay.
CT:
Yeah. That would take her to school. Maybe it wasn’t -- what was the school
closest on Mohawk? Anyway, she went to a Chicago public school where they
taught English classes, and she had her little book. She was going to school,
and I really admired her for that. She’d come back, [01:10:00] and she’d practice
everything that she learned that day with all the grandkids, and we used to laugh.
“She’s trying to learn,” you know, ’cause she spoke funny, but she learned. And
then, after my grandfather died, she needed a certain amount of quarters from
social security in order to get social security. She got a job working in this linen
company on Halsted Street on the South Side, and she would take a bus all the
way from the North Side to go to the South Side to work there and then go all the
way back north on this bus, and, you know, somebody who’s that old and so set
culturally in being Hispanic and -- to do that, you have to admire her. How many
women would do that? So, okay. So, the church. The females eventually
[01:11:00] began to do things. They eventually had their own meetings at the
44
�Cardinals’ Committee. So, in 1966, they decided to have a Puerto Rican Parade.
That was the very first Puerto Rican Parade there was. My dad was the
president of the Puerto Rican Parade Committee, the ones that did it.
JJ:
So, this came out of St. Michael’s, then.
CT:
No. Remember, I keep telling you that. The Cardinals’ Committee --
JJ:
It came out of the Cardinals’ Committee.
CT:
Committee, which are all the churches. Okay? So, they decided they were
going to have a parade. All right? And my dad became the president.
JJ:
But he was from St. --
CT:
He was voted from --
JJ:
But he was from St. Michael’s.
CT:
He was from St. Michael’s. There were people from all over. All right? And so,
the [01:12:00] Cardinals’ Committee, the group that sponsored the parade, had a
float. Okay? And it was going to be a religious float. So, we, the Rivera family,
got to be on this float, representing the family. Okay? A religious family. Okay?
Indirectly, they were trying to say something else, I believe, because 10 kids, you
know. No birth control at the time. This is what a good family’s supposed to be.
My mom’s buggies were there with the kids. Somewhere, we have a picture of
that, but that was the year that there were riots. Okay? And that was the same
night that I came to Puerto Rico.
JJ:
The Division Street riot was (inaudible).
CT:
The very same night. My dad took me to the airport ’cause I was coming to
Puerto Rico, [01:13:00] and my dad actually went to Daley’s house when the riots
45
�occurred, and my dad talked to him and to other people that worked with the
Cardinals’ Committee’s, my uncles and dad, to try to defuse what was going on.
What it was, I don’t know because, like I said, I wasn’t here. I’ve seen it on TV,
and people have told me what happened, but I was never near Humboldt Park
where this happened. But, getting back to my dad and the community, my dad
met the governor of Puerto Rico, Luis Muñoz Marín (inaudible). He knew Daley.
He knew all these people in politics, and, for a person with no education, who
was a tomato picker, to be so well known, okay? Was [01:14:00] amazing. Very,
very amazing. He also worked for -- when we moved to the South Side, there
was a problem in that community, and the problem were the gangs.
JJ:
So, now, we’re talking about Visitation Church.
CT:
Right, but we’re not gonna talk too much about that, but I’m talking about my dad.
When he moved there, they gave him a job working for the Department of
Human Resources. Okay? And what his job --
JJ:
Was this after the riot or --?
CT:
Yes because he already -- we moved to the South Side. Okay? This was when
he worked with the neighborhood gangs. Okay?
JJ:
(inaudible).
CT:
So, my dad -- what I’m trying to say is, from a tomato picker, he went to holding
all these positions, putting together all of these activities and things, having a job
through the city. [01:15:00] Not educated, you know, and being able to -- how do
you say? Mingle with people like the governor and the mayor of San Juan, and it
was very amazing. Very, very amazing. Okay. So, when we moved to the
46
�South Side, okay? Caballeros de San Juan no longer existed. Okay? My dad
then joined another organization, “Puertorriqueños Unidos de Chicago,” and that
was an amazing one too, but let’s get back to the Lincoln Park one.
JJ:
But we can talk about both too (inaudible).
CT:
So, the Caballeros de San Juan. The last thing that they did was they had
banquets, and that was to generate funds, okay? Because, if somebody had a
fire, or a death, or something, [01:16:00] they gave money to these -- they helped
their community. So, you bought a ticket, okay? And this was the first time
Puerto Ricans were going to fancy places. So, they got to go to the hotels
downtown. They got to go to different -- they got out of their neighborhood. All
right? And so, that also was really amazing, that they could do that, that they
could go somewhere and say, “Hey, we want to rent your hall,” and that they
could sit down and estimate -- “We need to sell so many tickets, and we need to
make money for the band, and we need money for the --” You know, to me, that
was very amazing, and that they could do so many of these. Okay? I know that,
for the first Puerto Rican parade, they had a banquet, and they sold tickets, and
they were expensive, and they made money. All right. So, we --
JJ:
Was anyone else connected, like [01:17:00] the Puerto Rican Congress or
anybody else?
CT:
Puerto Rican Congress -- that was later.
JJ:
That was later.
CT:
That’s now. There’s a Puerto Rican Congress now. All right?
JJ:
But, at that time, it was mainly the Caballeros.
47
�CT:
It was Caballeros de San Juan.
JJ:
The Caballeros de San Juan.
CT:
There was no Puerto Rican Congress.
JJ:
So, the first parade was Caballeros de San Juan.
CT:
Caballeros de San Juan all the way. The Puerto Rican Congress can claim to
have been a part of that, and I really can’t say it wasn’t, but I do know who was
on the committees and who did the work. I believe that the Puerto Rican
Congress came --
JJ:
Who was it?
CT:
Well, it was my dad, my uncles, Calvino. I think Felix Rodríguez. There was a
Cuban guy who was -- I mean, the names --
JJ:
They were all --
CT:
All affiliated --
JJ:
-- affiliated.
CT:
-- with Caballeros de San Juan. Okay?
JJ:
Because, actually, the date of it was [01:18:00] near San Juan Bautista, right?
CT:
Always. Always. Okay? It was always in June.
JJ:
Always in June.
CT:
Okay? And it’s always been in June, and it’s usually either the Sunday before
Father’s Day -- sometimes, it’s fallen on Father’s Day. All right? It’s always in
June. All right, so, when we left the North Side, then we moved to the South
Side, again, we didn’t have a Spanish Mass.
JJ:
There was a group that moved at the same time?
48
�CT:
Yes. It was Ernito Gómez, Rick’s dad, Don Jesus, my dad. Oh, my gosh. I’m
blank right now. Okay?
JJ:
Okay, but it was like a group of organizers.
CT:
Yeah. And they moved there, and Visitation Church did not have a Mass for
Spanish people. Okay? So, we went from one German church to [01:19:00] an
Irish church. Everybody in that neighborhood was white, Irish. Very few Polish.
Okay? No Blacks. Okay? ’Cause it was divided again. 63rd Street divided the
Black community. 63rd on up and towards the East End was Irish, and Monsignor
Wolfe ran the church. All right. So, he really did not want us there. Okay? He
did not want us there. And so --
JJ:
So you were in the hall there too, or --?
CT:
No, there was no hall. There was no nothing. Okay? It was a church. Actually,
there was two churches. One downstairs and one upstairs. Okay? So, he used
to walk on [01:20:00] Sundays. Okay? He’d get in, and he’d walk, during the
Mass, talking to people, shaking their hands, but never to the Hispanics. Okay?
Which was very funny. I mean, you know. And that showed his prejudice. How
we came about it, I don’t know, but there was suddenly a community again,
pulled together. We had different priests and whatnot, and the Monsignor
eventually died, but we had a Mass downstairs. There was a chapel down there,
so that was our Mass. Again, they bought a building in that area, people who
connected together with my dad. They bought a building, and it was called -- oh,
my gosh. What was that building called? Rick.
RT:
Which one?
49
�CT:
The one [01:21:00] on 55th that they bought, where you played that one time.
Oh, my gosh.
RT:
(inaudible) Puertorriqueña.
CT:
Oh, okay. La Unión Puertorriqueña. All right? And it had a hall upstairs, and it
had a bar, and they used it for weddings. They used it for dances. Ricci played
there one time. Okay?
JJ:
What band? What band was that?
CT:
He had a group.
JJ:
Los Riccis.
CT:
Los Riccis, yeah.
RT:
No.
CT:
He had a group.
RT:
It was The Sunsets.
CT:
The Sunsets. All right, so, anyway, that was one thing that they did. Eventually,
as the years went by, most of the Puerto Ricans started moving further west.
Okay? But there was still one group left.
JJ:
But this group, la Unión Puertorriqueña, what did they do? What kind of
activities?
CT:
Dances, weddings. [01:22:00] They bought this building. It’s not that -- it was
called the Puerto Rican --
RT:
It’s a fundraiser.
JJ:
Oh, it’s a fundraiser.
50
�CT:
Yeah. They called it the Puerto Rican Union because it was like a big union hall.
All right? Then, the main, main thing there was -- well, there was Puerto Ricans
all over the place. Eugenio Gómez, okay, was the real estate guy, and he had a
store, and he used to sell furniture and whatnot from that store to all the Puerto
Ricans. Okay? And he used to sell houses. So, he moved -- he was the one
that gathered all these Puerto Ricans into that community. He used to work for
Cahill Brothers Realtor. Cahill Brothers Realtor was on Ashland. And then,
slowly, the Puerto Ricans move a little bit west of Ashland. Then, they move
west of Damen. Then west of Western, and that (break in audio) in the suburbs.
It was --
JJ:
Is this --?
CT:
-- a Puerto Rican flight.
JJ:
[01:23:00] A Puerto Rican flight?
CT:
That’s exactly what it was on the South Side.
JJ:
So, why? Why do you call it the Puerto Rican flight?
CT:
’Cause that’s how the Puerto Ricans -- I’m not talking about -- when the Puerto
Ricans moved to 55th Street, and that’s what it’s called, that whole community, all
the Irish picked up and left.
JJ:
Oh, okay. So, it was an Irish flight.
CT:
The first flight. After the Irish left, it was a Puerto Rican flight.
JJ:
Okay. Oh, they followed that.
CT:
Yeah.
JJ:
You just took over their neighborhood.
51
�CT:
Exactly. So, this is what happened. The Puerto Rican Union no longer existed.
They had to get rid of the building because there was not enough Puerto Ricans
living in the area to continue with that. So, there was nothing for them. Okay?
So, they decided, let’s do another group. We got to do something. Okay? So,
they formed this group called Puertorriqueños Unidos de Chicago. [01:24:00] All
right? What was their goal? Their goal was to fund scholarship for students.
That was it. That was their goal. Whatever activities they did, okay? Funded.
The building was owned by Eugenio Gómez, but we had to pay rent, and we had
this whole, big, huge office on the South Side because, remember, St. Mike’s
moved south. Some of them.
JJ:
You’re saying a lot of the people --
CT:
Mm-hmm.
JJ:
-- from St. Mike’s moved south.
CT:
Moved to the South Side. So --
JJ:
Because their neighborhood was changing at that time?
CT:
Yeah. So, anyway. So, here, you have this group of Puerto Ricans, and they
had a president. My dad was president. My sister was always the secretary.
Okay? And, eventually, [01:25:00] I don’t know how I got on it, and I was a board
member, and, at the time, I was working at Curie High School. So, I had kids
apply for these scholarships. Okay? And I got Wilfredo Ortiz to be on the board
with me, who was -- he worked for the board. He was --
JJ:
Board of education?
52
�CT:
Mm-hmm. He was a principal at a couple of schools, and, eventually, he became
the principal at Curie High School, and then he went on to have the job that Arne
Duncan had. What is it? Director of high school development. That was his job.
But, anyway. We used to have garage sales. My dad ran the garage sales.
Okay? He was out there, selling everything, and everybody was cleaning house
and whatnot, [01:26:00] and we did really good. The first year, we gave
scholarships -- I think it was to like six kids. All right? And we were dumb
because what we did was, without thinking -- “You have a scholarship. Tell us
what school you’re going to, and we’ll send the money to the school.” Okay?
Then, I said, “Wait a minute.” It just didn’t dawn on me because I had come in
new. I didn’t know what they had done. So, the second year, I said, “You know
what? That doesn’t work. We’re giving these kids scholarships, and we’re giving
it to the university, and then they take away money from them ’cause, if they’re
getting 1,200 dollars, they deduct the 250 that we send, and the kid’s not gonna
get any more financial aid.” So, we’re helping the schools, not the students. I
told them what we should do -- and then we had to vote on this -- is let the kids
go to [01:27:00] school. The first semester, they bring back their grades. Okay?
We don’t care if they have C’s or D’s ’cause that’s not what the scholarship was
for. We just want to know that they’re in school at that they’re gonna continue
the second semester, and we give ’em a check. That way, they can buy
whatever they want that they need in school, for books, for clothes, if they’re
hungry. What do we care? Okay? The kid’s in school. So, that’s how we did it.
So, depending on how much money we got and how many kids applied, okay?
53
�First year was 250. The second year, we upped it to 500. I never worked on
selecting students. Okay? Because -- even my daughter applied. Anybody
could apply, but it was based on what that committee decided. No questions
asked. Doors closed. They decided on [01:28:00] the kids’ resumes, on the
application. They had to write an essay, “Why Should I Be Given The
Scholarship?” And what have you done for the Hispanic community? That was
the main thing. Don’t come and apply for a scholarship from the Puerto Ricans if
you haven’t done anything, you know? So, it was based on that. Okay? And we
didn’t care what school. It could have been a university. It could have been a
tech school. Could have been beauty school. We didn’t care what they wanted
the scholarship for, but they just had to do the first semester, and then they get
the money. Wasn’t like we were giving out thousands of dollars. So, that worked
for a long time. And then, eventually, like I said, the exodus took away more
people, and it was just too hard to go to the suburbs, and call this one, and call
that [01:29:00] one, and -- you know.
JJ:
The exodus -- now, the Puerto Ricans are going to the suburbs? Is that what
you’re saying?
CT:
The Puerto Ricans have left 55th Street. There are like five families, Puerto
Rican families there. The majority are Blacks. Okay? African Americans, and
you have a few Mexicans, but they’re dispersed. 35th Street cuts the area up
’cause up to 35th Street is where Daley used to live, so that area is still -Canaryville is still white, Irish.
JJ:
It’s never changed, that area.
54
�CT:
That area has never changed, and then the Chinatown area expanded, so they
meet together. All right? But 35th Street cuts off the area. And, of course,
Puerto [01:30:00] Ricans left. You know, the Irish took off, and then, as the
African American community came -- ’cause we have to speak reality. This is the
reality. Okay? They moved west because they were also scared. Okay? This
had nothing to do with economics. Okay? It was really racial.
JJ:
It was racial.
CT:
So, they took off, and they kept going west, west, further south, Oaklawn. Pretty
soon, everybody’s out in --
JJ:
And they also -- other neighborhoods.
CT:
They moved to other neighborhoods. One of the neighborhoods was --
JJ:
Other neighborhoods were moving the suburbs too, right?
CT:
When we --
JJ:
Like, the other Puerto Ricans from Lincoln Park were moving to the suburbs too.
CT:
Exactly. It was city-wide.
JJ:
So they kind of (inaudible).
CT:
It was city-wide. The North Side people moved to the suburbs in the north. The
Humboldt Park people moved west. Okay? The [01:31:00] South Side moved
west and southwest. All right?
JJ:
So --
CT:
It kept moving. Like, right now --
JJ:
Oh, people kept moving away from the lake.
55
�CT:
Yeah. There is -- okay. The South Side never had a lake. Okay. Now, the
Puerto Ricans have moved out. Now, you have Mexicans living where the
Puerto Rican lived, okay? And, now, the cut-off line in California. Okay? ’Cause
we lived on 63rd and Washtenaw, and we moved, like the rest of everybody -- we
also took off to the suburbs. Okay? Everybody had moved on. Okay?
JJ:
So, why did you move? Was it racial, or --?
CT:
We moved -- actually, that was one of the things, and it wasn’t just racial
because of African Americans. It was also Hispanic, but what we moved for was
because, now, they’re standing in the [01:32:00] corner gangs. Okay? And --
JJ:
So, it was gangs.
CT:
Gangs. And then, we had two girls, and my daughter was going to school in
Lemont, at Mount Assisi. I was paying for that bus to come pick her up, drop her
off, and then I was paying extra for the bus for sports, so we said, “We’re paying
all this money. Might as well just move.”
JJ:
Okay, so it was gangs. It was racial. It was --
CT:
It was the school.
JJ:
The neighborhood was changing.
CT:
The neighborhood had changed, and the neighborhood suddenly -- it was bad.
JJ:
It got down. As it was changing, it got down.
CT:
Not that it got down.
JJ:
(inaudible) depressed.
CT:
You actually had drug dealers on the corners. You had gangbangers.
JJ:
But that’s what I mean, got depressed.
56
�CT:
And then, the Mexican gangs would fight with the African American gangs, and it
was just -- you know, we moved. We moved for a lot of reasons.
JJ:
It was not what it was when you first got there.
CT:
No. No. When we first got to that area, [01:33:00] Ricci and I, it was all Irish. It
was Marquette Park. All right. My dad never moved from 55th and Peoria. The
house is still there. My mom is living there now as a widow, and she lives there
with three of my brothers. One never left home. Two came back after their
divorce. And, basically, they’re there, but there is nothing there anymore for
Puerto Ricans, just like, after we moved, there was not too much activity at St.
Mike’s.
JJ:
Okay. And then, so, after that, you made a move back to Puerto Rico. How
does it go? How does that go?
CT:
Myself? No, I got --
JJ:
You moved back to --
CT:
Okay. After we moved to 63rd -- I mean to 55th and Peoria, I went to college.
[01:34:00] Okay? I went in Evanston to Kendall College for two years, and I lived
there.
JJ:
Kendall?
CT:
Kendall.
JJ:
Okay. Was that an art --?
CT:
It was a junior college.
JJ:
Was it an art school or no?
57
�CT:
No. This was just a two-year junior college, and I got a scholarship there. I didn’t
have to pay anything. Then, I went to Loyola University ’cause I graduated from
junior college, and I used to commute.
JJ:
So, you had your bachelor’s (inaudible).
CT:
I got my bachelor’s in science and in education.
JJ:
In Loyola, and then you --
CT:
At Loyola.
JJ:
Where did you get your master’s?
CT:
I got two master’s. I have two master’s, one in counseling and one in supervision
and administration at Chicago State.
JJ:
Chicago State, okay.
CT:
And I got my first master’s -- I started it 20 years after I had been a teacher, after
I had [01:35:00] graduated, and I went to a program. Again, I went to a program
for bilingual teachers. Okay? That’s how it started, but not enough applied.
Okay? So, it was open to everybody, but it originally was conceived to be a
program for bilingual teachers, and there was a huge, big group. Okay? And we
all graduated, and we all made it as counselors, and we all worked as
counselors, and some moved up to be teachers. And then, Ricci and I, we
moved to Lemont. First, we lived on 27th and Keeler. From there, we moved to
St. [01:36:00] Rita’s. We left St. Rita’s Parish, and I was really involved in there.
I was on the school board.
JJ:
At St. Rita’s?
CT:
Mm-hmm. I used to do the cheerleading for the grammar school girls.
58
�JJ:
Did you do the training (inaudible)?
CT:
Everything. I had somebody help me, Olga. She was in high school. She had
been a cheerleader, and she taught the girls the cheers and everything. I
supervised them. I made sure they had drinks. I made sure they had snacks.
The same thing my dad did. Then, I started doing it with my kids. Okay? I used
to read in the church. My son was an altar boy.
JJ:
Okay, so you read in the Mass.
CT:
Mm-hmm. Everything my dad did, I try to do. Okay? We moved from there, and
then that’s when I didn’t get involved in anything but the United Puerto Ricans
when I lived in Lemont. And [01:37:00] then, when I --
JJ:
So, you had the United Puerto Ricans there too, or (inaudible)?
CT:
No. Lemont was all white.
JJ:
You were traveling.
CT:
We used to come to the city --
JJ:
To the Visitation, to the United Puerto Ricans. That area.
CT:
Yeah, but that was for meetings and whatnot, to Marquette Park.
JJ:
Right, Marquette Park.
CT:
All right. So, then, what I did do, though, was I got this job, an extra job, okay?
From the Chicago Public Schools, okay? I became a service learning coach, and
that’s when you do work, volunteer work. Students have to have 40 hours of
volunteer work, so I had all these Hispanic students. Now, I’m working with the
students. And so, we went back to Humboldt Park. We went to Casa Central.
[01:38:00] Okay? And I had these students visit with the people there, and it was
59
�just wonderful. The kids all wanted to come back, so I kept sending kids to do
volunteer work there. But, lo and behold, why do I know a whole bunch of people
there that used to live in our community?
JJ:
In Lincoln Park.
CT:
They were all at Casa Central. Okay?
JJ:
So, they were residents of Casa Central.
CT:
Yes.
JJ:
They lived in Lincoln Park.
CT:
They had lived there. Okay? I mean, they no longer lived there, okay? We did
that, and we did a whole bunch of work with a lot of the Hispanic community. So,
like I started to say, from my dad working with the community, that went down to
myself, and my daughter did a lot of work. She [01:39:00] joined a Hispanic
sorority. She joined the Sigma Lambda Gammas.
JJ:
This is --
CT:
The Gammas. Mary Lou.
JJ:
Okay. Is that your only daughter, or --?
CT:
No. I had two daughters. One passed away in a motorcycle accident three
years ago. She was 25.
JJ:
What was her name?
CT:
Her name was Cristina.
JJ:
Cristina.
CT:
Cristina used to pick up strays everywhere and bring ’em to me to fix. When I
mean that, I mean, you know, she was at the same school I was in, and girls who
60
�had problems, or found out they were pregnant, or whatever the problem was, I
don’t know how, but she collected them all up, and I had all this work ’cause
everyone would be -- they had other counselors, but they would come to me
because of Cristina. So, Cristina was a lot like my dad. She would help
everybody, even if she didn’t know them. “Oh, you need some help? Oh, okay.
Come on.” A lot of times, she’d bring these kids who had run away from
[01:40:00] home to sleep in my house. I go, “No. It doesn’t work that way. Who
are their parents? Give me the phone.” So, it was really -- they learned. I think
everybody in our family, from my dad, learned to be generous, to help others, to
do some volunteer work, to give, so we’ve all done that, and my dad’s shoes, like
the song goes, are very hard to fit. He was a great, great person. Wonderful.
So much so that, when he passed away, he has been the only layperson -- and
by lay, nonreligious -- that had a wake inside the church because we couldn’t
accommodate the people that came to my dad’s wake. Okay? The coffin was
put [01:41:00] in the middle, up by the altar. That whole church was filled. My
brothers worked for CTA. There was a CTA bus with all CTA people, dressed in
their uniform, conductors, bus drivers, whatever, that came to pay their respects
because I have two, three, four brothers that work for CTA, and my niece and my
nephew. Okay? So, how do you say? It was just -- the only layperson to have
used that church. Okay? We’re very fortunate that everybody in the family,
whether they went to college or not, and extended family members of my in-laws
all have -- somehow, they all managed to get [01:42:00] city jobs, you know, as
policemen, as CTA.
61
�JJ:
These are your brothers or --?
CT:
My brothers, my --
JJ:
So, you have some brothers that are policemen, or --?
CT:
No. I’m saying in my in-laws’ family. Okay? I have cousins who are policemen.
Like I said, one of my cousins is a judge. Others work for the gas company. I’m
not saying they have great jobs, but everyone has a profession. Okay? In my
family.
JJ:
Now, does this have to do with your dad’s organizing?
CT:
With my dad. There was no such thing as “I’m not going to school.” You had to
go to school. Okay? And we lived up north, in St. Michael’s. We were the only
Hispanic family that had a set of encyclopedia. Everybody came to copy
something for homework from our set [01:43:00] of encyclopedias. When we
moved south, my mom bought another -- ’cause that one was outdated, and it
wasn’t enough information. We got another set of encyclopedias, and these
were the big kind, not the little, skinny kinds. You know, they go through different
stages. She also got a set of books that were body -- medical. Okay? Huge, big
Bible ’cause you had to have a Bible, and you had to do homework. You came
from school. First thing you did when you walked through the door -- “Hi, Mom,
blah, blah, blah.” Go down, and change your uniform, and put on your play
clothes ’cause we were 11. We didn’t have the money to be buying -- you know,
and you had to make sure you didn’t dirty that shirt because you only had one
more shirt. Two shirts in a week. Okay? ’Cause you would wear it two days, put
on the other one, [01:44:00] and then the other one would be washed. And you
62
�had to sit down and do your homework. You had to graduate from school.
Okay? My dad never went to high school. My mother did. My stepmom
graduated in Jayuya.
JJ:
In Jayuya?
CT:
There’s a big thing in our family.
JJ:
She graduated in Jayuya?
CT:
Yeah, and she still has her class ring.
JJ:
I didn’t know she was from Jayuya.
CT:
Yes, she is from Jayuya. And she has --
JJ:
’Cause I thought she was from Isabela.
CT:
No, that was my real mom. My stepmother’s from Jayuya. Luz María’s from
Jayuya. She has her class ring, and, nowadays, there’s a thing that the ring
companies do. They come to the high school, and they say, “Whoever can bring
the oldest class ring gets a free ring.” All right? So, my mom’s class ring has
traveled (inaudible) Arizona, to [01:45:00] Chicago, back and forth ’cause
everybody wants a free ring ’cause now they’re, like, 500, 600 dollars for a ring,
so --
JJ:
(inaudible).
CT:
So, everybody’s borrowed her ring. Okay? And, you know, it’s funny because
we go to her house, and, whatever we want -- ’cause my dad’s passed. She’s
82. If you want something, you have to put your name on it because, at the time,
whoever comes -- like I said, there’s 11 of us. And my family has dispersed also.
63
�From Chicago, they’ve moved on to Arizona. I have two brothers in Arizona,
three sisters, and their children live there.
JJ:
What kind of work do they do?
CT:
My sister-in-law works for Allstate.
JJ:
Allstate, okay.
CT:
And my brother works for the [01:46:00] energy company in Arizona. One sister
works for a health company, Magellan, and my other sister works for a bank, and
--
JJ:
You mentioned Mary Lou. We didn’t mention her name.
CT:
Oh. My daughter, Mary Lou? Okay. Cristina passed away. My daughter Mary
Lou is a nurse in Joliet at St. Joe’s Provena. She went to Illinois State and
graduated in criminal justice, and she was working for a nonprofit organization,
Cornerstone, ’cause Cristina and Mary Lou both worked for cornerstone, and,
somehow, she was working with disabled people and giving them -- making sure
they took their medicine and everything, and she said, “Why should I do this? I
have a college degree. I could be a nurse.” And she went back and became a
nurse. [01:47:00] So, she’s a registered nurse, and she’s got a very good job,
and she was just here. She just left. I have a granddaughter who’s gorgeous.
Just gorgeous. And my son and my granddaughter came in January, and they
stayed here for 10 days, and it was just nice playing Grandma. I had a grandson,
and he passed away in Chicago. He was five years old, my son’s oldest son.
And, basically, that’s it. And one of the things too is -- like, when I came here, I
joined an organization here for the -- we have, like, a center. Unfortunately, I got
64
�sick, and I couldn’t continue to work, but I did do a lot of work with them the first
year that [01:48:00] we got in this organization, and -- very different. Things here
are different from over there, but you have to continue, and -JJ:
How different? What do you mean? What way?
CT:
All right. If you’re used to Robert’s Rules --
JJ:
Rules of Order.
CT:
Okay? And you come here, they don’t follow them. It’s whatever anybody says.
You have to have been born and raised here to understand some of the cultural
things. Even though you’re Puerto Rican, they’re different here. Everything’s
different here. When I first came here, I didn’t even know what a (Spanish)
[01:48:44] was. I thought that was a credit card, and it was just an ATM. The
words, the language, the customs. Everything is different here, but you
[01:49:00] just have to get used to it and adapt to it, and you have to remember,
you know, you were raised to be a Puerto Rican, and that’s one thing that
everybody in our family has instilled. My dad instilled it in us. No matter where
you go, you say you’re Puerto Rican, and you hold your head up. Okay? I told
my kids the same thing. “When they ask you what you are, say, ’I’m Puerto
Rican.’”
JJ:
So, he’s working with the church, but he’s also working for Puerto Ricans.
CT:
Okay. You have to understand, being Puerto Rican and being Catholic were one
thing. Okay? It was never anything different for those of us who were Catholic.
First, you were Catholic. Then you were Puerto Rican. But, when you got to
Chicago and you were in the community that had all these organizations, you
65
�[01:50:00] couldn’t separate anything. You could separate it if you lived and you
had nothing to do with the community, and many Puerto Ricans didn’t want to
have anything to do. Many Puerto Ricans wanted to be -- how do you say?
“Don’t recognize me. Therefore, I won’t have any problems.” Okay? “I’m not
going to stand up and say I’m Puerto Rican because --”
JJ:
That’d give you problems.
CT:
Right. And that was the other thing too. As you left -- and, again, I’m not saying
that I experienced prejudice because I was Puerto Rican, but, yes, I felt some
differences. In other words, when I got my scholarship -- “Oh, you got a
scholarship ’cause you’re Puerto Rican.” No. I didn’t get a scholarship because I
was Puerto Rican. I got a scholarship ’cause I had brains. I had the same GPA
you did, and it had nothing to do with being Puerto Rican, but you had more
[01:51:00] advantages than I did, but I still got the same GPA as you did. I had to
work harder for it. All right? I didn’t graduate from Loyola, and I wasn’t just given
a degree. When I went and I got my job, everybody -- my first job teaching, I
worked at Mozart School. It’s on Armitage, between Armitage and -- I don’t
know. Armitage is the big street -- or Fullerton. No, Armitage and Fullerton.
Okay? So, I got my first job there because they needed a bilingual teacher -there was a bilingual program -- and I went for my interview, and the person who
interviewed me was going to be my principal, but he just happened to be working
that summer, hiring. And so, the minute I mentioned I was Puerto Rican and
[01:52:00] everything, he says, “You know, I taught in Puerto Rico.” I go, “What
do you mean, you taught in Puerto Rico?” He says, “Yeah.” During the ’50s, he
66
�had come to Puerto Rico, and he had taught English. Okay? He spoke Spanish.
So, he says, “Oh, how would you like to work for me at my school? I need a
teacher for second grade.” I said, “Great.” So, I was hired, and a lot of people
resented the fact that there were bilingual teachers in the system because they
didn’t want the bilingual program. There was a big controversy, again, dealing
with the communities. Okay? Some people used to say that, “Oh, you take all
these Puerto Rican and Mexican students, and you put ’em in the classroom, and
you teach ’em Spanish, and then they don’t learn English as quickly, [01:53:00]
so they’re behind.” So, there were people who were against the program, and
there were people who were for the program. I was neither for or against. I had
a totally different philosophy, and, ’til this day, I have it. I do not feel that children
should be put in a group and be separated because they are Hispanic, and I’m
just gonna teach them Spanish, and they can pick up the English as you go
along, and I’m not gonna put them in an all-English classroom. I believe that
immersion is the best way to teach someone. You can have a teacher who’s
bilingual to get them along, but you immerse them. You immerse the students
who live over there into English and Spanish. You immerse the students who
live here in English because [01:54:00] they’re gonna have to learn English.
Okay? I don’t know if you know that a lot of our students who graduate from high
school here go to the mainland for college.
JJ:
I didn’t know that.
CT:
Oh, yeah. I have two cousins who went to Purdue from here. One went to Yale
from here, and one graduated from here, okay? College, and went to
67
�Georgetown University to become a dentist. She’s a -- what do you call it? One
of those that puts -- an orthodontist. So, you need to learn English, but I feel
that, in Chicago, when I first started and I got my job, people said, “Oh, you got
your job because you’re Hispanic.” No. I didn’t get a job because of that. I got a
job because I deserved it. I graduated from school because I worked. Okay?
Not because they gave me something [01:55:00] because I was Hispanic,
because, at that time was when -- what is it that they call -- I forget the name -where they wanted more -JJ:
Yeah, I know what -- it’s quotas.
CT:
The quota.
JJ:
The quota system, yeah.
CT:
I didn’t get a job because of that, and I have to remind everybody, and I always
said, “I’m Puerto Rican.” And then, if they ask you -- you’re white or you’re Black,
you know, what does that have to do with anything? And the other thing is that
we were labeled. When you went to school, are you Black, or are you white? My
daughter felt a lot of -- both of them -- a lot of prejudice in Lemont. My youngest
daughter was told, “Oh, you’re Black. Go back to Africa.” And she came home
crying. I told her, [01:56:00] “Hold your head up high and say you’re Puerto
Rican, and so what?” Well, she did, and she became a very good softball player,
so she was on the private team in Lemont, and, when they traveled, she was
also dark, you know. They’d go to the pool, and, two minutes later, they’re
tanned, and, “Oh, you’re Black.” “No, I’m Puerto Rican.” So, yeah. There was a
lot of discrimination, and the thing was, if you didn’t look for it and you looked to
68
�say, “I’m better,” you didn’t feel it. Very few times did I feel that I was being
discriminated against in that area. In other areas, yes, but, in that Lincoln Park
area, I never really felt discrimination, and I don’t know if it was because of our
family [01:57:00] lifestyle, okay? And you have to look. I mean, to tell you the
truth, we didn’t hang out. Okay? We were home every day, did our homework.
We prayed the rosary. We never, ever -JJ:
You prayed the rosary at nighttime.
CT:
Every night, we all had to pray the rosary.
JJ:
So, you did your homework, and then you prayed the rosary, or -- (inaudible)?
CT:
We did our homework. We had dinner. We took a shower, and, before bed, all
11 kids, on their knees with dad.
JJ:
He led the rosary?
CT:
Mm-hmm, and we prayed. We went to church every single day. Every single
day, and, on Saturdays that you didn’t go to school ’cause you always started
school with the Mass and then you went to the classroom, then, on Saturdays, go
to church. You have to go to church. On Sundays, we went to church.
JJ:
And, in fact, they used to have a lot of (Spanish) [01:57:55] in the neighborhood,
and they had (Spanish) [01:57:58] and all kind [01:58:00] of other activities.
CT:
During the Christmas season, they had parrandas. Everybody went. You gather
at somebody’s house. It’s known as Christmas caroling in English, but it’s
parranda to us in Spanish, and everybody -- the guys who had a guitar or a
cuatro and the singer. And then, everybody went, and you went from house to
house in the cold at two o’clock in the morning. You’d knock on their door, and
69
�you start playing, and, if you’re the homeowner -- everybody always got ready,
and this was the thing. “(Spanish) [01:58:31].” You know? “They’re gonna bring
me a parranda. So, you bought the cheese, the crackers. You always had a
chicken in your freezer ’cause, if they came, you chopped it up, and you made
the caldo, the big soup, and, oh, my God, that was fun. That was so much fun,
but, yeah, you did that. People died, and you prayed in their home every single
day for nine days.
JJ:
The novena.
CT:
The novenas. Okay?
JJ:
And you pray the rosary too, right?
CT:
You prayed the rosary [01:59:00] then, and you prayed it fast because, as soon
as the rosary was over, you could have your beer, or you could drink, or you
could have coffee, and you can gossip. Okay? That’s --
JJ:
The tradition.
CT:
-- the tradition. Okay? Over there, you wake people in a funeral home. Here, to
this day, you can wake people in your own house. Okay? And, again --
JJ:
So, they bring the casket into the --
CT:
The funeral home comes. Let’s assume that we were gonna wake somebody
here. You take out your furniture from the living room. They make it look like a
room in a --
JJ:
Funeral.
CT:
-- funeral home, and you have the casket, and people come all day long, all night
long. You have it for one day ’cause people here are buried right away. You
70
�don’t wait a week to bury somebody. Okay? They died today. You wake ’em
tomorrow. You bury them the next [02:00:00] day, or you cremate them,
whatever your choice is. But, yeah, and, in Chicago, you went to the people’s
houses. You prayed the rosary, and, again, you see what -- we come back to
what? We come back to the church. Okay? Midnight Mass. Every Puerto
Rican went to midnight Mass, and then you came home, and you opened up
gifts. Okay? But, before that, you had your party. You had your lechón, and you
had -- I mean, as a kid, I remember my dad going to Indiana and having these
lechones killed, these big pigs, and you would bring them home, and everybody - cook (phone rings) ’em, and everybody had a piece, you know? Rick, phone.
So, in reality, everything, again, dealt around the church. You’re born. You’re
baptized, [02:01:00] and you had to be baptized right away, and it was a big
party. Anyway, so, what else? The weddings. Okay. You know how they say
weddings and funerals are where you see everybody? The reality is true. In
Chicago, it was a big wedding, and you didn’t have, at the beginning, weddings in
halls, where you sat down and you had a banquet. It was just a big hall, and you
had the rice and beans, and help yourself, and the music, whoever you knew
come and play. Again, was a religious thing. Everything.
JJ:
And all this was going on in Lincoln Park.
CT:
Yeah. Well, that’s what I’m saying, that, over there, you know, at the sodality
hall, you had a wedding, and people cooked. The same people in the
neighborhood.
JJ:
Or baptisms or --
71
�CT:
A baptism too. And, again, totally different, [02:02:00] and anybody else’s
wedding. We have the nine rosaries, and everybody drinks and parties. The
Irish, they bury somebody, and then they have a drinking party. You know?
We’re no different. Our customs are different, but, again, no different than
anybody else, and Lincoln Park, as any other community in Chicago of Puerto
Ricans, dealt with -- the main thing was the church. Everything from the church
came out. The church is the center, and then you have your little branches, but
that’s how it was. Eventually, that has changed. Okay? And I think, like any
other community, you didn’t need the church as much now because, now, you
learn how to do this. Now, you can do that. [02:03:00] Now, you moved away.
In the suburbs, okay? There are no Puerto Rican churches, Irish churches. You
know what I’m saying? Because it’s open land and there’s one subdivision here,
another subdivision there. There are no churches that really hold -- there’s no
Puerto Rican subdivision in the suburbs. Okay? So, everybody’s all mixed up.
And so, that’s why very few -- you can go --
JJ:
So, everybody’s mixed up. At that time, they were more segregated.
CT:
Segregated. Now, you go to North Avenue and Ashland. No longer Puerto
Rican. Now, it’s Mexican. They have moved from Pilsen and 18th Street, and
they have taken over --
JJ:
(inaudible) -- oh, North and Ashland?
CT:
Yeah.
JJ:
All that is -- Wicker [02:04:00] Park has changed now. It’s more (inaudible).
72
�CT:
There are no Puerto Ricans in Wicker Park. Okay? And the ones that are, you
can’t tell they’re Puerto Rican. Okay? Because they’re either second
generation, third gen -- whatever. Okay? And they’ve assimilated totally. Okay?
Like I said, there was a flight of Puerto Ricans from Chicago. A big flight. It’s
mostly Mexican where we used to be. They have taken over, and, at one time,
(inaudible) the yuppies took over Humboldt Park. It’s changed. There’s only one
Puerto Rican store that I can tell you that I know of from way back that hasn’t left.
JJ:
Which one is that one?
CT:
[02:05:00] That’s the one on Central Park and Division.
JJ:
Central Park and Division?
CT:
Mm-hmm.
JJ:
What’s the name?
CT:
I don’t know the name of it.
JJ:
But it’s right on the corner of Central Park and Division.
CT:
Division, Chicago Avenue, where they -- you know.
JJ:
Where they meet?
CT:
That store there has not changed. You can still go buy platanos. At
Christmastime, they take the meat, and they grind it so that you can make your
pasteles. They have everything there, but that’s the only one that I know of. And
then, again, I left six years ago, so -- but, when we go back, that’s where we go
and shop for Puerto Rican items. So --
JJ:
Any final thoughts?
73
�CT:
Yeah. There’s one. Okay. I wish that and I hope that our culture continues to
grow in Chicago. I wouldn’t want [02:06:00] it to -- how do you say? There be no
Puerto Rican culture here. I believe that that’s what’s gonna happen. There’ll be
nothing left there. Somewhere else, you know. So, I hope that the Puerto
Ricans who are still left there continue to do Puerto Rican Parade, to do things to
foster our culture, and I wouldn’t want it to disappear totally.
END OF AUDIO FILE
74
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2426f012b7793a6ae290977b29008f47.mp4
416cf80c9faff362efa3fa101080f467
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives.
The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
spa
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-65
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
2012-2017
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Título
Spanish language Title entry
Carmen Trinidad vídeo entrevista y biografía
Sujetos
Spanish language Subject terms
Young Lords (Organización)
Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos
Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales
Justicia social
Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago
Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres
Source
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-65_Trinidad_Carmen
Title
A name given to the resource
Carmen Trinidad video interview and transcript
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Trinidad, Carmen
Description
An account of the resource
Carmen Trinidad’s family arrived in Lincoln Park in the 1950s. She was one of only a few Puerto Rican families to attend St. Michael’s Church in those days, although the neighborhood had already become heavily Puerto Rican. She recalls her father’s, Cesario Rivera’s, work as a leader of Council Number Three of the Caballeros de San Juan at St. Michael’s. She also remembers the way that organizations like the Caballeros de San Juan and Damas de María started and sustained softball leagues, picnics, social dances and dinners, retreats, plays, parades, festivals, and the establishment of a credit that still exists to this day.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-05-17
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives