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                  <text>&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514"&gt;Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley state University
Veterans History Project
Vietnam War
Ron Zahn
(50:44)
Background Information (00:20)
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Born on December 29th 1951 in Indiana. (00:22)
He lived his childhood in a small town in the upper peninsula of Michigan. (00:40)
Ron’s parents were retired farmers. (00:55)
Before going into the service, Ron did much of his work on farms and also trapped animals.
(1:17)
He had little knowledge of what was occurring in Vietnam and paid little attention to its
occurrences. (1:48)
Ron got two MIPs while in high school and was given the choice of going to jail or going into the
service. Ron chose the service in the spring of 1969. (2:15)
Ron went into the Army and signed up for a 2 year stint. (2:54)
Ron entered service in September of 1969. (3:45)
He was sent to Milwaukee, Wisconsin, for a physical. He saw people intentionally breaking digits
in order to avoid entering the service. (4:03)

Basic Training (5:02)
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Ron was sent to Fort Campbell, Kentucky, for basic training. He thought it was a little scary
(5:15)
Because Fort Campbell was full, Ron was sent to Fort Benning, Georgia. (5:55)
Basic training was physically difficult; however Ron was in better shape than most. (6:25)
Basic training lasted 6 weeks. (7:00)
Some of the instructors were Vietnam veterans. (7:32)
Next, Ron was sent to Fort Sill, Oklahoma, for AIT [Advanced Individual Training]. Ron was
assigned to Field Artillery. (8:11)
Ron was trained on 155mm howitzers. Ron was responsible for sighting the weapon. Ron set the
elevation of the gun by using a sight and a crank. (9:10)
The training on the gun lasted 6 weeks. (11:03)
Ron graduated AIT in December of 1969. He received orders to go to Germany. (11:27)
He was given 2 weeks leave and then reported back to Fort Sill. When he reported back the
orders were changed to Vietnam. (12:12)
The men were given another week of leave and then reported to Fort Lewis, Washington. From
here the men flew to Alaska and then to Cam Ranh Bay. (13:47)

Early Service in Vietnam (14:00)
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Ron was scared when he arrived in Vietnam. He took note of the heat. (14:15)
Ron was then sent to Camp Evans where the 101st Airborne was stationed. (15:20)
The Battery was at Camp Evans. (15:36)

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He believes that the Battery received Ron all right. He was not the only new man. (16:17)
There were 6 guns on the battery. Ron was assigned to gun number one. Ron kept the breech
clean and oiled the barrel. (16:45)
Ron began his service at Camp Carroll where the men stayed for 2 weeks. In February of 1970
the men were moved to Firebase Rakkasan. (17:25)
On the fire bases the men were subjected to mortar and sniper fire. (18:46)
The men in the battery did have to set up parameter security. The men also had their own fox
holes by the guns. (19:19)
A month later in March of 1970, the men were moved to Gladiator. (20:11)
While at Gladiator, enemy men got through the wire and demolished the ammo dump. (20:41)
The men spent about one month at Gladiator before being moved to Fire base Kathryn for 1-2
weeks then to Rakkasan again. (21:17)

Service on Ripcord (22:00)
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The men arrived at Ripcord in mid June of 1970. The area was very frightening due to the
proximity of the jungle to the base and that other groups had been chased off Ripcord before.
(21:31)
After the engineers dug foxholes, Ron went in and dug them deeper. (24:00)
The guns often provided support for the troops around Ripcord. (25:25)
Gradually, mortar and sniper fire began showing up along with rockets, tear gas, and machine
gun fire. (25:50)
Ammunition was brought in using Chinooks and Hueys. (26:52)
The ammunition was dropped at the back of the base. The men were required to carry the
ammunition from the back to the front of the fire base. (27:19)
Ammunition often got to the base, it was the drop and going to get the ammunition that was
dangerous as this was what triggered enemy fire. (28:51)
Ron doesn’t remember sleeping in Vietnam. (29:50)
Ron’s unit did not lose any guns. However, the 105mm battery unit lost all 6 guns in July after a
helicopter crashed with ammunition on the base. (30:44)
A man got pinned in the fire and pleaded for the others to shoot him. But due to the intensity of
the fire, no man could get in close enough to do so or to help him. (32:05)
There were no casualties in Ron’s battery because of the 105 accident. But because the 105s
could no longer fire, Ron’s battery had to fire more to fill the missions. (33:02)
At this time the unit was losing officers and sergeants through indirect fire and mortars. (36:37)
There were some men that came to replace casualties, however on Ron’s gun, the men did not
want any one else on their gun, even if a man as lost. (38:37)
The men were told on the night of July 21st that on July 22nd the men would be leaving Ripcord.
The men shot off as much ammunition as they had before leaving. Ron did not think they would
be able to evacuate Ripcord. (39:10)
Men were always prepared to destroy the guns if over run. (40:24)
All 6 guns were removed successfully form Ripcord. When the men left, they were handed a
number. The numbers were used to decide who left Ripcord first. (41:15)
Ron took the second to last chopper off of Ripcord. (43:03)
The men are moved to Camp Evans. Ron didn’t know where the other members of the battery
or the guns were once he was moved. (44:41)

�End of Service (45:09)
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There was a two week long stand down after returning from Ripcord. The men then stayed at
Rakkasan. Here Ron had his hand smashed in the breech of the gun. (45:16)
Ron volunteered to assist build a new fire base in early August of 1970. (46:30)
Ron did finish his high school education. This was before he was sent to Vietnam. (49:26)
Ron was asked to reenlist but did not want to. (49:40)
Ron spent his time after the service working as an auto mechanic and a truck driver. (50:15)

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans’ History Project
Ronald Zandbergen
Cold War
23 minutes 0 seconds
(00:00:10)
-Born in November 26th, 1942 in Grand Rapids, Michigan.
-Raised on a farm.
-About 250 acre farm raising animals for food.
-Sold wholesale meats.
-Joined the Navy in January of 1961.
-Graduated high school in June of 1960.
-A friend of his decided to join with him to see the world.
-Took basic training at Great Lakes, Wisconsin.
-Training was rough, and rugged.
-Only half passed training.
-He was assigned to be a radioman.
-In Bainbridge, Maryland he was trained to do communications, Morse code.
-After Bainbridge he was sent to Keflavik, Iceland where he remained for one year.
-Their role was protecting the military line between Greenland and Iceland.
-Protecting US ships from Russian aircraft etc.
-Grounded two mig fighters at one point. Released after Cuban blockade ended.
-After Iceland he was sent to Little Creek, Virginia to transfer to the Tactical Air Control
Squadron 21.
-The remaining four years of his military career were spent with the Squadron.
-Spent six months in the Mediterranean.
-Visited all of the ports.
-Traveled on the USS Boxer for six months.
-Went to Cuba.
-Did training just off of Cuba.
-Visited Guantanamo Bay.
-Valuable lessons from the Navy.
-Being at sea for so long teaches you to get along with people you don’t like.
-Mediterranean different from the Ocean in that it is so clear you can see the bottom.
-Loved going to France and Spain.
-Attended the bull fights.
-Being in the military teaches you a lot about yourself.
-He loved the Navy and enjoyed the experience overall.
-In Iceland it was so dark and icy that walking to the mess hall required holding a rope.
(10:00)
-He was injured while slipping on ice and sent to a hospital in New York.
-Injured his back.
-Navy didn’t tell them too much about the Russian position or Cold War in detail.
-Iceland was backed by Russia, but the locals were very friendly.

�-Locals worked on the base in kitchens, and theater etc.
-Appreciated the fact that the Cold War was not active fighting.
-What did you think about the Vietnam War?
-He was discharged in January of 1965.
-Can’t comment too much in detail, but felt bad about the situation.
-What was it like being in Virginia?
-Married while in Virginia.
-Had his son there.
-Son now serves in the Air Force as a Lieutenant Colonel.
(15:00)
-At that time he was considering staying in the military, but decided against it.
-Basic training required jumping from an 80 foot high platform into a pool.
-Learned how to tie a pair of pants around him in such a way that air from the fall created a
floatation device.
-Does not recall any women in the Navy at that time.
-Very proud to pass his basic training because it was so difficult.
-Learned to fire a gun, however they were not issued a firearm.
-Their vessel was a flagship, not a battleship.
-During the travels along the Mediterranean they were aboard the USS Francis Marion.
-Originally the ship was a passenger ship.
-They sailed with the commander.
-As a radioman he communicated with aircraft in the area, not menial cleaning duties.
-Highest rank achieved was radioman 3rd class.
-Up for 2nd class before leaving the service.

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                  <text>The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.</text>
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                <text>Zandbergen, Ronald Fay (Interview outline and video), 2015</text>
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                <text>Ronald Zandbergen was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on November 26th, 1942. He joined the Navy in January of 1961. At Great Lakes, Wisconsin he endured basic training and became assigned to communications as a radioman. In Bainbridge, Maryland he was trained in Morse Code and radio specialization. Then he spent a year in Keflavik, Iceland where the US was wary of ships during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Next he was sent to Littlecreek, Virginia to the Tactical Air Control Squadron 21. During his time in the Navy Ronald travelled on the USS Boxer, and visited European ports in the Mediterranean area on the USS Francis Marion.</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Raymond Zandstra
(00:54:14)
Background
•
Interviewed at the Lowell Historical Museum. (:07)
•
Born 9/30/1941, in Grand Rapids. (0:16)
•
Raised as an only child, until his half-brother was born. (0:41)
•
His mother was a single parent during WWII. As a result he spent a lot of time with his
extended family when she was at work. (:52)
•
His mother re-married 1947, when he was about six. (1:24)
•
His step-father was the only father he knew. He accepted and respected his step-father.
(1:43)
•
He was nine when his brother was born. (1:56)
•
First job was delivering the Grand Rapids Herald, a morning paper. The Grand Rapids
Press was an afternoon paper. (2:06)
•
Worked at a car wash during high school. (2:25)
•
Went to Godwin Heights high school, and graduated 1959. (2:38)
•
Met his future wife during high school. He was about fourteen. (2:49)
Enlistment
•
Enlisted at age 17, in the Navy. (3:05)
•
Sworn in six weeks after graduating, July 14, 1959. (3:24)
•
Decided to enlist because he had no direction in life, and didn't want to go to college at the
time. He had “had it” with books and studying. (3:45)
•
Also thought he wouldn't be injured during peacetime, and wanted to learn something.
(4:13)
•
Learned discipline, respect, and became a man. (4:33)
•
His parents were opposed to his joining, but realized it was his choice and respected that.
(4:50)
•
He chose the Navy partly because his biological father and his step-father had both been in
the Navy. (5:13)
•
Another reason was that he liked the Navy clothes the best. The Army, Air Force, and
Marines had to wear neckties and button shirts. The Army also had to wear hard hats and
the Navy had softer hats. (5:42)
•
Basic training ideally lasted twelve to fourteen weeks, but in practice was usually around
sixteen. The longer time was a result of bureaucratic lag in assignments and processing.
(6:18)
•
Was shipped out, but not informed where he was headed. He didn't find out specifically
until he had almost arrived. He did know he was being sent somewhere in Europe. (7:20)
•
Spent a year in Sicily. (7:30)
•
Came back to the U.S. Afterwards, and went to a school for helicopter training. (7:35)
•
Helicopter maintenance school in Memphis, TN. Lasted sixteen weeks (7:45)
•
West Coast, San Diego, CA. Helicopter Squadron 1. (8:02)
•
Helicopters were used for plane guard on aircraft carriers, and for rescue duty. (8:34)
Survivor Training/Mock Prison
•
San Diego, one week survival training. (8:34)
•
Survivor course, had to learn how to survive off the land. (:02)

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Escape and evasion techniques. (9:23)
The week was completed with twenty four hours in a mock prison. (8:39)
Were interrogated in the mock prisons. (8:39)
Trained to only give name, rank, and serial number. (10:04)
Training was required for air-sea rescue staff. (10:23)
The course was also recommended for individuals looking to advance in rank. (10:44)
The first day of the week was spent on the beach learning swimming techniques. (11:06)
Had to forage for food. Had lobster and fish soup cooked on a fire pit. (11:34)
They were taken out to sea in boats, and had to float alone in the sea for a short period. This
was to learn about being stranded at sea. (11:57)
Trained in helicopter pickup. (12:16)
Learned more swimming techniques in a large swimming pool. (12:27)
Endurance swimming and life-vest training. (12:40)
Had to jump off of a tower, about sixteen feet high. Training for jumping off of sinking
ships. (13:06)
Went on hiking trips, five to seven people with a contour map. (13:23)
Had to find their way to a specified point. (13:37)
It was a day long activity. (13:52)
The week was filled with other similar activities. (13:52)
During the interrogations they were not given food or medical supplies. (14:28)
Finally were given some food, but only after they sterilized their canteens with boiling
water. (14:52)
Remarks that hot water was “not fun to drink.” (15:18)
They were not given much water to drink. (15:18)
Asked for more water. (15:30)
Given small amount of food, had to learn to share with his comrades. Usually made soup.
(15:45)
Stimulated air raids during mock prison experience. (16:00)
Interrogations varied in length. (16:08)
The interrogations were longer if they got any information. (16:33)
During interrogations it is best to only give name, rank, and serial number. The interrogators
often try to socialize with their victims. If they can get some information, even it is
unimportant; it is easier to get more important information. (16:53)
Common questions include: What task force are you with? What size ship? What ship?
Where are you going? How many planes? And other similar questions. (17:27)
Name, rank and serial number, only. (17:42)
Some were interrogated multiple times. (17:51)
One of the men was black (1 out of 125). He interrogated for longer periods, and more
often. (18:05)
Minorities were often picked on. (18:23)
The black man was nicknamed “Elvis.” (18:46)
The interrogators would often ask for Elvis, and the men would try to protect him, to no
avail. (18:46)
Elvis did very well. He was well conditioned, and intelligent. (19:17)
Elvis was able to keep in mind the experience was a training exercise. It was very close to
the real thing however. (19:30)
The interrogations got physical frequently. They were hit, chairs were kicked out from
under them, but the interrogators were not allowed to draw blood. (20:00)
The interrogation was at the end of a survivor course. The men were exhausted, physically

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and mentally. (20:35)
Several people, six to ten, got heat exhaustion. (21:01)
The compound was in the desert, the exercise had to be stopped. The men with heat
exhaustion were in critical condition. (21:22)
A helicopter took them to the naval hospital. (21:43)

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•
•

While in Sicily was a part of FASSRON, Fleet Air Support Squadron. (22:29)
Originally was assigned to Malta. When he arrived, they were in the process of
decommissioning the air base. (23:35)
He was then sent to Sicily, to oversee the construction of the new base. The construction
was delayed. (22:50)
NATO required that the base be more than half built by Sicilians. The Sicilians were not
very quick, resulting in the delay. (23:08)
Some parts of the camp were finished, others were not. The barracks were not completed,
and they had to sleep on desks in the administrative offices until they were finished. (23:32)
The Sicilians didn't know much about the United States. American occupation during
WWII had been brief. (23:55)
The men were not permitted to wear uniforms while in Sicily. (24:28)
Men went to Catania, Sicily for supplies and groceries. (24:36)
Ate outdoors most of the time. (24:50)
Sicilian culture did not approve of tattoos, uniforms, or living behind fences. They
perceived people who did such as the “enemy.” (25:00)
Italian perception was that higher class people lived North, and lower class people lived
South. Sicily was south of Italy, and perceived as being low class. (25:31)
Sicilians were mostly Italian culturally. (26:07)
Americans did many of the things that Sicilians did not approve of, resulting in them being
disliked. (26:19)
The air base was part of an arrangement with NATO. (26:30)
The air base was strategic to American interests, as it was in the center of the
Mediterranean. (26:30)
The base also provided jobs for Sicilians in construction, maintenance, and cooking. (26:58)
While in Sicily, his duties were aircraft maintenance and repair and occasionally security.
(27:21)
The “ship's company,” men who were permanently assigned to Sicily, had three aircraft.
(28:06)
Had many types of planes coming and leaving. (28:17)
Planes were usually at the base four to six weeks. (28:59)
The planes served on many types of missions. Reconnaissance using photographs and
sonar, and patrol squads. (29:03)
Letters were the only form of communication. They took seven to days to arrive. (29:27)
During Christmas he wanted to call home, so he went to a hotel. The operator had to place
the call, which took two to four hours. The calls usually lasted two to three minutes.
(30:08)
The long distance calls were very expensive, which was why they were not allowed
frequently or for very long. They had phones at the base, but they were internal only.
(30:53)
His aunt frequently sent him care packages. Gum, fudge, cookies, cakes, and other various
baked goods were the most common contents. (31:17)
Hopefully the baked goods would be sent by air. This only occurred if the aircraft had the

�room, otherwise they were sent by ship. The ship route took thirty to forty days, by which
time most of the baked goods were no longer any good. He was always thankful to receive
things from home, even if they were stale baked goods. (32:03)
•
Has a picture of the base, explains various parts of the base. (32:32)
•
Some of the men brought their families with them. (33:14)
•
His barracks overlooked olive orchards. (33:38)
•
The base was near Mount Etna, the largest active volcano. (34:04)
Helicopter School
•
After Sicily, he went to the Helicopter Maintenance School.
•
Helicopter Squadron #1 in San Diego, CA. (34:52)
•
The base was in Imperial Beach, CA on the Mexican border. (35:02)
•
Was a very small air base. (35:22)
•
It was five or six miles away from San Diego, which had a very large air base. (35:31)
•
Between the two was North Island naval base, which was used to train the Navy SEALS.
(35:48)
•
The helped the SEALS with helicopter training. (36:10)
•
The SEALS had a graduation rate of around 8%. Half of a one hundred man group would
drop out within a week. (36:33)
•
At Imperial Beach, he was the training petty officer for Helicopter Utility Squadron One.
(37:15)
•
The air-sea rescue crew had rigid training. They had to lean special swimming techniques,
aircraft, and were trained in taking off of an aircraft carrier. (37:41)
•
They had a permanent detachment in Hedsuey, Japan. The rescue crews would spend a year
at that base. (38:22)
•
He scheduled training exercises, assignments, and classes. (38:46)
•
Deployments were called “cruises.” (39:04)
•
Cruises varied in length. North PAC or South PAC (North or South Pacific) lasted about
three months. (39:16)
•
The cruises to the Poles were the only ones where crew was allowed to grow a beard.
(39:41)
•
Other cruises were between four and ten months aboard carriers in the Pacific. (39:55)
•
Helicopters were put on plane guard. A helicopter had to present, and in the air at any
landings or take-offs onto an aircraft carrier. (40:25)
•
When he was in Memphis, he sometimes went home for the weekends. It was a fourteen
hour drive. (41:06)
Discharge
•
His tour duty was a “minority enlistment” because he was sworn in at age seventeen. As a
result he was to be released the day before his twenty-first birthday, but that was a Saturday
so he was released an additional day early. (41:50)
•
Released 9/28/1962 (42:30)
•
He had everything packed and ready. He left base at about noon that day. Drove twenty
hour days from San Diego to Grand Rapids and arrived at 9:00 pm Sunday. (43:02)
•
The following week he wanted to call one of his military friends at home. He found out his
friend wasn't home. (43:13)
•
His friend had been at the “Bay of Pigs” invasion, and was not discharged until Christmas.
No men were allowed to be discharged during this period, a fate he barely escaped. (44:14)
•
Credits Kennedy's fast-talking with preventing a war with Russia or Cuba. (44:38)
•
He was stationed during the Cold War Era, many things happened that he didn't know about.
Later on, in the seventies, the government issues “Vietnam bonuses” to men who had served

�in the “Vietnam Era.” He had served during the period, but had never heard of the situation
in Vietnam. (44:45)
Post-Enlistment
•
After being discharged, he came home. He was married by this time. (45:54)
•
His wife was expecting their first child. (46:08)
•
He still didn't want to go to college, and he had a family to support so he looked for a job.
(46:20)
•
His parents had wanted him to go to college to avoid work in a factory. As a result, he did
not want to work in a factory. (46:28)
•
He had taken drafting courses in high school, and got a job with the Fred F. Johnson map
company. (46:54)
•
The company drew and sold city maps. (47:19)
•
He worked with that company for a year to a year and a half, and then had an opportunity to
work with a civil engineering company in Grand Rapids. This job paid more, and had more
of a future so he took advantage of the situation. He worked there for ten years. (47:32)
•
He left that company for another, similar company and worked there for fifteen years as the
head of the surveying department. (48:11)
•
Later on, one of the engineers wanted to leave and found his own business, but was looking
for a partner. The two of them started a company. (28:30)
•
For the first year and a half the office was in his home. They were in business for eighteen
years. (49:21)
•
The company still exists, and has offices in Grand Rapids. He retired September 30.
(49:36)
•
Has three daughters, his oldest is forty-five and named Rayna, after him. His second
daughter, Wendy is four years younger. His youngest daughter Shelby is ten years younger
than Rayna. (49:49)
•
He has five grand-children. (50:41)
•
His grandson is named Caleb Zandstra, and will continue the name. (50:59)
•
His family has always been in the Grand Rapids area, until recently. His eldest daughter is
leaving due to a job transfer. (51:27)
•
His second daughter is still in the area, but she will be moving because her husband lives in
Mobile, AL. She is waiting for some business transactions involving condos to be
completed. (52:00)
•
His youngest daughter is moving as well, but he isn't sure where. (52:40)
•
Recommends retiring to everyone. (53:00)

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              <elementText elementTextId="1031550">
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Vietnam
Name of Interviewee: Thaddeus Zator (2nd interview)
Length of Interview: 1:07:28
Background:
 Born in Newark, New Jersey, in 1919.
 His family left New Jersey for Michigan so that his father could get a job at Ford.
 He visited Newark later on because his grandmother still lived there.
 He attended high school in Detroit and later moved to Alma. Eventually he moved to
Grand Rapids.
 He finished high school in 1938, a half a year ahead of time.
 After graduation, he worked at a place that made axles.
 He was trained as a machinist, because of the classes that were available in high school.
Every Sunday his father would take the car apart and he would help put it back together.
 His high understanding of machinery would earn him a high rank in the army. (1:58)
 His father worked for Ford on and off during the 1930’s. He always went back because
he was a specialist in making a special polisher for glass.
 He used to watch his father work, especially the odd jobs around the house.
 He definitely paid attention to what was going on in the world. He acquired most of his
information by reading. His father was a great reader; they had a polish paper, an English
paper and many magazines in the house.
 His father talked about government often and he was a great listener. Before he
graduated from high school he used to belong to a local discussion group at the library.
 He followed the war all the way through. (4:00)
 The day of the attack on Pearl Harbor, he was at another discussion group. This group he
found were too liberal, as they were excited that Pearl Harbor was attacked because it
meant that the USA would join the war.
 Later on he realized that company like that was not really for him.
 Once the United States entered the war, he knew he was going to get drafted, but he
wanted to work as long as possible. He wasn’t ready to be in the services, especially
when he heard some of the stories of people who got back from serving in the Pacific.
 He received a 6 month deferment from the factory he was at for making war materials.
(6:18)
 He received his draft notice in the middle of 1942. He reported to Camp Crowder,
Missouri, to undergo the various tests of skill. He ranked high in the mechanical tests
and he was sent into the signal corps at Camp Crowder for basic training.
 Camp Crowder was in the middle of nowhere in Missouri.
Basic Training (7:22)
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He remembers his time there during basic training.

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He was never pushed very hard doing the physical work, but it was difficult getting up at
5 AM. He remembers falling asleep standing up one time during training, he was so
tired.
The basic training he got, he felt was not much training at all. Most of what he did
consisted of learning codes, and listening to telephone calls.
He was there only a few months, a short time to him.
He had a company pass and went out on the weekend once, but he did not have much
time for that.
People there were very disciplined, but they got along well.
He recalls the various stories of how one man there was dating a Hollywood actress.
Another man there was a genius at the radio, but since he was handicapped, he slobbered
everywhere. (9:56)
After Camp Crowder he, along with another man from Indiana, was rushed by train to the
east coast, through Canada and were placed on a boat to England.
Before that, he had gone through specialized training learning the teletype. The teletype
is a machine that is like a typewriter, but the finished product prints out in another city. It
also works by using a tape in a radio. He never saw another teletype after that.

Active Duty (12:05)
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He remembered the trip to England. The ship did not go with an escort because it
zigzagged the whole trip. He was very seasick the whole trip too.
They fed him toast and tomato juice and held him while he threw up. He spent most of
the trip in his cot and they came to check on him once in a while.
When they rushed him, they forgot to give him his overseas shots on the train. So one of
the first things that happened on the boat was that he got 7 or 8 shots all at once. He
remembers that they were poking him all over the place.
Before he reached England, the boat stopped in the Azores. There he would see the
flying fish and he was amazed at the sight. Fish really can fly. (14:15)
After they left the Azores, they landed in England. Headquarters were in London.
He lived on Green St., which was within walking distance from where he served.
While he was there, he lived in the local houses. The people of London grew afraid of
the war and left their homes. Many of them let the soldiers stay there since they were not
living there. He was very thankful for that.
Backing up, he explains what his work was during the war.
After Camp Crowder, he did not go on a boat. Instead he went to Arlington, Virginia.
There he was trained in the various languages that he was going to encounter during the
war. He was also trained in both encoding and decoding.
He learned how to operate the machine, and through that he learned how the mechanics
of it as well.
While he was there, he visited Washington D.C. One time when he went there he got the
chance to speak with the first lady, Mrs. Roosevelt. After he came out of the depot, he
was confronted by a man who wanted a picture with the first lady, but did not know how
to approach her. So he did this man a favor by taking a picture of her. He never saw the

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picture. Later, a similar situation would happen with Eisenhower and he never saw that
picture either.
He also visited his grandmother in New Jersey.
Although he was trained in coding, he actually worked on the repairs for the machines.
While he was in training, he passed all the tests fixing all the problems with the
machines. (21:05)
So when he was rushed to England, it was because they needed technicians to work on
the machines.
While he was in England, he stayed in London, but sometimes he was sent to other places
when they needed his skills. He was sent anywhere from small villages outside of
London to crossing in boats to Ireland.
There was a mixture of people who lived in the houses in London. They all belonged to
different camps and places and no one ever spoke about what was going on where they
were at, and what they were doing.
When he went to work, he worked in the residential building. It was like where he lived,
but the windows remained closed because the people there did not want anyone else to
know what they were doing.
It was very elementary and was not much there. Mostly, they met and got their orders to
work on specific machines and left. (23:53)
Sometimes, when there was not anything for him to do, he was assigned to work with the
others.
One man he worked with, by the name of Barlow, was a genius with the machines.
When they got to the machine it took Barlow 5 minutes to figure out the problem, when it
would have taken him almost 2 hours.
Only during the end of the raids did he have to go through some bombings.
Each man was assigned to watch for shrapnel. He never got to see the big part of the
war.
He does not remember a lot of bombing while he was there.
He was also sent to the core headquarters and air bases to work on the different machines
there.
While he was living in London, he and other took advantages of the hot fires and drinks
at a place for the US soldiers. He sometimes took naps there as well.
They also took the underground subway to Piccadilly Circus. There he saw musicals, had
dates, and went to bars. They all laughed and had a great time. (28:20)
The English people there treated him and the other soldiers very well all the time.
They stopped him from smoking cigars. In England people who smoked cigars were
considered to be of higher stature. So when he smoked his, people would look at him
funny like he thought he was something special. So he gave up cigars and gave away
most of his cigarettes to his buddies. He still smoked some, but he was no longer looked
at funny.
While he was there doing his job, he tried to follow the war. There was a local GI paper
there, called the Stars and Stripes, but it was not very good. He also read the English
papers. He enjoyed looking through them because they were so different.
As D-Day approached things in London became somewhat tense, but nothing special
happened. (30:15)

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As they prepared for the invasion, soldiers were moved to different places, spread
throughout the coast of England. He ended up in staying with a nice old sailor and his
wife.
A couple weeks after D-Day, he landed in France.

France (32:40)
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When he got there, he saw German papers lying all over the place. He thought they
would be worth something as a souvenir one day, so he picked some up
Ultimately he would end up on Utah Beach, which was a code name for the westernmost
landing zone in the Allied invasion of D-Day.
While he was there, he did not work on machines, because all of the machines were being
used by the forces ahead of him. Instead they were sent to different installations where he
was needed.
During one of these assignments, he decided to climb a French telephone pole to get a
better look at the bombardment that was happening farther away. Unlike the ones in the
United States, these were made of cement, not wood.
He did not see anything; on his way down, he lost his footing and fell to the ground,
injuring his tailbone in the process. Due to his injury, he walked with his legs spread
apart and everyone was making fun of him. (35:30)
Unlike his fellow soldiers, he had very little equipment. He carried around a toolbox that
held a few basic tools and a diagram of some of the machines he was supposed to work
on.
Even when they were installed, he wasn’t operational. He remembers making one call
someplace, but that was it.
There was also a man by the name of Catello, who was also from Michigan, who drove
him around to different places. A few months ago, he tried to have someone find Catello
over the internet but he did not hear if they were successful in reaching him or not.
(37:17)
The closest thing he got was to finding some Catellos who worked as weather experts on
a local TV station. The young man certainly looked like a Catello, but no more
information was found.
When he spoke of getting installed, he meant they were in the process of arrival. He and
the others were following Patton as he chased after the enemies. They never stayed in
one place too long, or else they would get too far away and then Patton’s forces could not
be reached. (39:08)
As he moved across northern France, a few things stick out in his memory.
There was a bridge in one little town, he saw GI’s parked there, with supplies. Later on
he was told that they were there waiting for the bridge to come down again. Apparently,
that bridge had come down once and they had to put it up.
He also remembers coming across a field, and he saw a kid, a GI to be precise, shooting
at something. Turns out that it was a cow. They kid was complaining that he was
shooting the cow, but it was not going down. He remembers it because it was stupid to
think that one bullet to the belly would take down a cow. (41:08)

�
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

He does not recall much about the native population. Usually they disappeared, and all
they found were empty houses.
Eventually they stayed in Verdun, France, for a bit, while the Allied assault was stalled
near Luxemburg. He was fairly close to the front lines.
While he was in Verdun, he sat and waited to be assigned to go to a place to work on
maintenance. It did not take very long. (43:22)
Sometimes he would take a small plane, sometimes he would be driven to where he
needed to go.
During the battle of Bastogne, he and the others waited for a couple of days, hoping that
the clouds would clear. Once they did, it meant that the US planes could bombard the
enemy.
When he worked on maintenance, he would find the divisional headquarters, which
moved day to day. His driver and he would spend some time having to find the new
place where the headquarters were before he could do any work.
During one of these expeditions, they found where they camp had previously been. A GI
had been ordered to wait there and point them in the direction of the new camp. When
they went to where the GI pointed, they drove until it was dark, and had not seen a person
in quite some time. (45:00)
Finally, they caught up with a GI, but he did not trust them. Because the enemy
sometimes dressed in GI uniforms, the soldiers were entrusted with a daily passcode, to
ensure they were friends. Unfortunately, he knew the code from the day before, but not
that day, because they drove around so long.
The soldier brought him to their commanding officer, who had to make a decision on
what to do with them. He explained the situation and asked for food and shelter. He also
offered to stay in the truck with his driver. At the time, the trucks they had were not the
jeeps, but a different model used for the hauling around maintenance tools.
They were offered food and coffee. He fell asleep quickly and slept soundly throughout
the night. When he woke up in the morning, everyone was gone. He and his driver
figured that they had been drugged, since they did not hear anything when they others
left. (48:40)
After that, they continued on and eventually found they place they were supposed to get
to. Mission accomplished.
Another time, they were trying to find another camp near the Bavarian Mountains. All
the roads and bridges had been destroyed and they only way across a ditch was to use a
small bridge that was for small carts or cows.
They decided to take this bridge across, as they had nowhere else to go, and it collapsed
behind them. They barely made it across. (50:11)
During that same trip, they ran into German soldiers. They had ventured into an area that
they did not know and out of the forest came two German soldiers with a white flag
waving. They stopped the vehicle and looked for guns, but found none. He figured they
were kitchen help that was left behind.
He did not know what to do, he had a job to do, and did not have time for the German
soldiers. So, he told them to keep walking with their white flag back from where he and
his driver had come, until they found someone else. They did so immediately, with no
questions. (52:03)

�
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
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
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

When the Germans surrendered, he was stationed in Verdun. He went as far as Belgium
for his calls, usually by a small plane known as a [Piper] Cub. He often got sick on those,
just as he had on the boat.
One time he was flying with a captain. When he took his helmet off, preparing to throw
up, the captain order his helmet back on. He did so reluctantly, but the captain ended up
landing the plane in a way that did not make him throw up. Instead of a wobbly, slow
decent, the captain took the plane straight down. At the last minute, he swooped the
plane up and landed. (54:55)
During those times when he flew, he always stayed within the Allied lines.
There was one time when he flew into a raid. At first he thought they were going to pass
it, but it turned out to be the place where they needed to go. They got to the town and the
only person they could see was a colonel directing traffic. He ordered them to go, as it
was not a safe area. Had they arrived sooner, they may have gotten blasted. (56:35)
During his time, he was pretty safe. He does not recall any close calls.
Once the Germans surrendered, things changed. Everyone knew it was going to be over
in a hurry.
He stayed in Europe for the rest of the year. He was sent back to London to finish up his
work. There he had worked in the American Embassy for a couple of days. (58:56)
After his time was over, he was sent on a Dutch boat back home. They no longer had to
worry about German submarines. He was seasick all the way home. The weather was
good the whole way home.
When he got home, they tried to get him to reenlist, telling him he could work for IBM if
he wanted. He declined and was discharged.

Post Duty (1:00:00)


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After he went home, he attended college at DIT, Detroit Institute of Technology.
When he was finished there, he attended law school at the Detroit College of Law.
It was then that his family went through a crisis. His father could no longer work, due to
terrible arthritis. His older brother was not working, but his younger brother was. This
was not enough income.
So he quit law school and went to a butcher school in Toledo, so he could become an
efficient grocer.
His family bought a store, and he and his mother ran it for a couple of years.
Unfortunately at the time, smaller stores were beginning to disappear and larger
commercial stores were beginning to take over. (1:02:25)
After he stopped working at the grocery store, he went to work at one of his wholesalers.
While working for them he contacted the many customers this wholesaler had and
negotiated the business on goings, such as prices and quantities. It was an interesting job,
and different every day.
He did not regret not going into a technical field. If he did, he would have to change and
move away. He was happy at home.
Going back to his time in the service, he recalls teaching other people how to do his job.

�





In England, before the invasion, his boss decided that some of the people that they
serviced in England could learn to be trained themselves. They would come for weeks at
a time and attend his class, teaching about the machine.
He taught his class a little differently than what he got in basic training. Instead of
teaching the names of parts, he taught them more about how the machine worked.
(1:05:30)
Looking back, he learned more about the machine. He appreciates the money that he got
for schooling.
He also thinks he changed a bit. He feels like he became more of a leader, which helped
him in his supervisor position at a pharmaceutical company.
His time in the service was fun; there was never a dull moment.

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Ray Zeeff
(35:190
Background Information (00:05)






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Born in 1916 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. (00:07)
He grew up in Grand Rapids. (00:22)
His father was a local truck driver. (00:30)
He attended school through the 10th grade. (00:57)
At 21 he worked in the office of a coal company. (1:05)
In 1937 he joined the National Guard. (1:25)
He joined the guard for the first time in 1932 at the age of 16 due to his uncle pulling some
strings and making his age 18. (1:45)
His father was able to keep his job off and on during the 1930s. Often he and his father would
find work on road sites. (2:21)

First Service in the National Guard (3:00)







The National Guard had the men practice with the Colt 45. and the Springfield rifle. (3:07)
The men were also instructed on how to operate a radio. (3:45)
There was close order drill and long distance marching. (4:50)
The men spent 2 weeks at Camp Farley where they practiced maneuvers. (5:08)
Ray was in the Regimental Head Quarters Company, 126th Infantry Regiment. (5:51)
He stayed in the National Guard until 1935. He left because his dad hired him to help with the
truck driving where he worked for many years. (6:13)

Second Enlistment in the National Guard (6:20)









In the late 30s work was improving but not by a lot. (7:40)
In 1937 he reenlisted in the National Guard. (8:20)
A private in the National Guard got paid 1 dollar (per month). (9:00)
He was assigned to his same outfit when he returned and reenlisted. (9:34)
He was paying attention to the conflicts occurring in Europe during the late 1930s and early
1940s. He received this news through newspaper and radio. (9:48)
In October of 1940 his unit was federalized. (10:23)
He was then sent to Camp Beauregard, Louisiana. (10:57)
He was sent down to Camp Beauregard by train. (11:06)

Training at Camp Beauregard (11:23)



All of the men from the National Guard were sent down to training. There were some older
men. (12:08)
The weather was very hot and muggy and there were a lot of bugs and wildlife. (13:05)

�















There were a lot of men at the camp who were drafted (in the spring of 1941 to fill out the ranks
of the unit) and from the west side of Michigan (the area that the guard unit came from).
(13:20)
His duties during his training were mostly of radio work. (14:33)
He was using a hand crank radio that had a large antenna. The radio transmitted code not
conversation. (15:56)
He left Camp Beauregard after 1 year in the fall of 1941. (17:22)
He was then sent to Camp Livingston, Louisiana. This was seen s being a much nicer camp than
Camp Beauregard. (17:44)
There was opportunities to leave the base while at Camp Livingston. (18:15)
He was married August 26th 1940. (18:43)
His wife never came to visit him but he was given a 7 day leave which he used to go see her.
(19:00)
His unit did go on large maneuvers. Ray was responsible for carrying his radio. It was very heavy.
(19:39)
Other men carried and laid the wire as well as carried batteries. (20:28)
He remembers hearing about Pearl Harbor in December of 1941. (21:24)
He stayed with his unit till the remainder of them shipped out to Fort Lewis in Washington. (The
unit was actually shipped to Fort Devens, Massachusetts, early in 1942, and then to San
Francisco prior to being sent to Australia.) He did not go and was discharged due to partial
blindness in his left eye. (22:07)
He wasn’t disappointed that he was discharged. (23:18)
His division left for Australia in 1942. (24:00)

Life after Service (24:20)










He continued his work as a truck driver. (24:24)
He began cross country truck driving when he returned (approx. 1942/1943) (24:55)
The truck drivers were given special stickers so that they could get fuel that was otherwise
rationed. (25:20)
The road type varied. Some were very beat up and needed patching. (26:00)
He didn’t fallow the news much or his former unit after he was discharged. Many contacted him
after the war to see if they could get work. (27:23)
During target practice after his service, a ricochet shot struck Ray in the head. (28:32)
The bullet was eventually pushed out and Ray was unharmed. (30:03)
He stayed in trucking, but in his later years he was made a departure. (31:00)
He remained a truck driver for 32 years. (31:38)

Thoughts on Service (32:19)





He recalls many of his sergeants. (32:22)
One of his segments would often send odd codes to the men during radio training to make sure
they were understanding it correctly. (33:00)
He remained friends with one of his sergeants even after his service. (33:39)
He learned a lot about team work through the military. (34:12)

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                    <text>4

Q_}

-

~

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':"~."lf&lt;. De Zeehoeve, een "kringenwetboerderij", is in

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1880 gebouwd in een gebied dat viel onder de
zogenoemde Kringenwet. Deze wet stelde
beperkingen aan gebouwen rond militaire
vestingwerken. In dit geval was dat de kustbatterij
bij Diemerdam.
De plaats van de Batterij bij Diemerdam gaat terug
tot de 16e eeuw. In feite is het een verzameling
geschutsopstellingen en munitieopslagplaatsen.
Het was, met Batterij bij Durgerdam aan de
overkant, gebouwd ter verdediging van de toegang
tot de haven van Amsterdam over de Zuiderzee.
Batterij bij Diemerdam en Batterij bij Durgerdam
zijn het begin en het eind van de "Stelling van
Amsterdam" waarmee, volgend op de Vestingwet
uit 1874, in 1880 is begonnen .
De Zeehoeve viel onder een wet uit !853,
oorspronkêlijk gemöakt vcor de Nieuwe Hollandse
Waterlinie, waarin het gebruik van land binnen •• .
zogenaamde 'kringen' rondom de vestingen en'
forten was geregeld . Deze "Kringenwet" gaf
voorschriften over wat binnen bepaalde afstanden
van forten gebouwd mocht worden .
Voor de Zeehoeve, die ligt in de tweede of
middelbare kring van 300 tot 600 meter rondom
de batterij, betekende dit dat de boerderij zeer
licht en eenvoudig gebouwd moest worden; dit om
in geval van oorlog snel te kunnen worden
gesloopt.
Behalve het aller-noodzakelijkste metselwerk voor
fundering en schoorstenen, is de constructie en de
afwerking van de boerderij geheel van hout. In
tegenstelling tot de zware kolommen en balken
voor de constructie van de stal bij een "gewone
boerderij" is in deze "kringenwetboerderij" de
houtconstructie zeer licht uitgevoerd .

�5

'

'
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'
'
'
'
'
'
'
'
'
'
'
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'
'
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'
'
'
'
'
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'

Verval
__!J:t;
De Zeehoeve heeft sinds de laatste bewoner in 1996 vertrok, ernstig te lijden
gehad van weer, wind en vooral verwaarlozing. Tijdens de storm van oktober
2002 is de gehele kap van de stal getild en verwoest. Eind maart 2003 is de rieten
kap van de hooiberg afgebrand.
Herstelling heeft toen gelukkig al zoveel mogelijk origineel materiaal en bruikbare
elementen veilig gesteld . Eind 2003 kon de Zeehoeve door Stadsherstel Amsterdam worden aangekocht.

Restauratie
Nadat Albert van der Lugt als toenmalig directeur Herstelling was benaderd door
Stadsherstel met de vraag of Herstelling met haar deelnemers in staat was een
bijdrage te leveren aan de herbouw en restauratie van de inmiddels vervallen
Zeehoeve. Toen daar positief op gereageerd werd kwam het proces in een
stroomversnelling .
Met medewerking van de gemeente Diemen, Amsterdam , Maatwerk Amsterdam,
Provincie Noord-Holland en na het realiseren van de benodigde subsidies en fondsen werd in 2003 een aanvang gemaakt met de restauratie door Hillen &amp; Roossen
met ondersteuning van deelnemers van de Herstelling en onder leiding van Stadsherstel.

1

Uiteindelijk idee was om de Zeehoeve te gebruiken als uitvalsbasis voor het management Herstelling en centraal punt van waaruit de administratieve ondersteuning plaats zou vinden. Dat Albert van der Lugt bekend stond als een visionair
kwam ook toen weer duidelijk naar voren. Bij het horen van de beoogde methodiek " Slagboom " waar collega's als Janneke Veldhuizen, Koos van de Burg, Rob
Moerbeek en anderen mee bezig waren en het zoeken van hen naar een passende locatie die deze methodiek recht kon doen, was de deal snel gemaakt.
DIT was de plek waar de pilot plaats moest vinden, een betere was er niet en de
plannen en de inrichting werden snel nadien aangepast aan dit voornemen. Dit
vroeg nogal wat aanpassingsvermogen en creatief financieel management van
betrokkenen . Het realiseren van een pand voor 25 permanent aanwezige deelnemers plus personeel en bezoekers, rekening houdend met alle regelgeving, vroeg
iets meer dan een kantoorachtige omgeving .

Ook de eigenaar is erg tevreden met
deze passende herbestemming. " Een
betere huurder kunnen we niet ;,vensen", aldus Stadsherstel. Als we het · ,
'boerenterrein' van de Zeehoeve
opkomen, dan worden we erg gelukkig van de heerlijk ru stige sfeer die er
hangt. Helemáál begin je van dit
project te glimmen als j e vriendelijk
gedag wordt gezegd door de jongens
en meiden van de Zeehoeve, die
bijvoorbeeld vol trots bezig zijn in de
moestuin en weer anderen die de
groenten en fruit verwerken in de
lunch . Het is net alsof j e bij een boerenfamilie op bezoek komt.

t

Stella van Heezik
Stadsherstel Amsterdam N.V.

Met alle inventiviteit, inzet en betrokkenheid van velen is dit uiteindelijk gelukt,
waarbij de "echte" samenwerking benoemd mag worden: deelnemers Herstelling ,
werkmeesters, werkvoorbereider, Stadsherstel, aannemer met medewerkers,
architect, gemeentelijke diensten en alle andere betrokkenen waren zeer coöperatief en realiseerden hiermee het prachtige sprookje van de huidige Zeehoeve.
De opening in 2005 door niemand minder dan Ahmed Aboutaleb, destijds wethouder in Amsterdam, samen met alle betrokken directeuren gaf aan dat hiermee
een gezamenlijk doel was bereikt.
Nu, vijf jaar verder en met de afronding van het laatste project de Hooimijt in· het
verschiet, is menig nieuwe deelnemer, bezoeker of participant nog steeds onder
de indruk van wat er toen uit die " bouwval" is gerestaureerd . Wij als bewoners en
gebruikers zullen het gebouw en de omgeving met respect en liefde blijven behandelen en in goede staat proberen te behouden voor die generaties na ons.

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
James Zegollari
Cold War
Total Time: 42:28
Pre-Enlistment (00:10)
•
•

Born in 1960 in Grosse Pointe Farms, Michigan.
Joined the Marines during his freshman year of college.

Training (01:55)
•
•
•
•

Went to Officer Candidates School (OCS) during the summers of his Freshman
and Junior years of College.
Attended OCS at Quantico, Virginia, and was trained by Vietnam Veterans. They
dropped around half of the class.
Also spent 6 months at basic school.
He was then selected to be a Tank Officer, and was shipped to Fort Knox,
Kentucky, to be taught the operation of the M-60 tank.

Active Duty (04:04)
•
•
•
•
•
•
•

Was stationed at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, for 3 years.
Also did 2 rotations at Twenty-Nine Palms, California, a training facility where he
served as both a 2nd Lieutenant and instructor.
He worked for a summer at Little Creek, Virginia, where they show Navy
Midshipmen what it would be like to be either a marine or a Navy SEAL.
(05:20) He also served as an Anti-Tank Missile Officer.
He was stationed in Narvik, Norway for a time for training operations.
He joined up with the Marine Reserves in Grand Rapids, Michigan, when he
moved there after being discharged originally from the Marines.
He stayed connected with his family and friends via mail and phone calls.

Post Service (20:25)
•

He has kept in touch with some of his men, especially the reserves.

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Boring, Frank</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Bertram Zheutlin
(25:15)
Introduction
Zheutlin was born in New Jersey and did undergraduate education at the University of
Michigan, then attended medical school at Johns Hopkins. For years before the outbreak
of war, he knew about the threat of Germany and Japan, and wondered if he would be
allowed to graduate from medical school.
Entry into service
(0:35)
Pearl Harbor occurred near the end of Zheutlin’s medical education, and he volunteered
for service while still a student. Zheutlin was allowed to finish medical school before
going into service, which he did in three years
(2:12)
When the war started Zheutlin and his fellow students were ashamed not to be in the war,
and would wear khaki pants and shirts while on the street to appear is if they were in the
service. Some would go so far as limp to appear wounded
Europe
(2:46)
After finishing medical school, Zheutlin immediately went into the army where he was
trained and sent to Europe as a lieutenant in the medical corps. Zheutlin mentions that
men were assigned according to arrival times, with one of the men with him sent up to
the front and killed a week later.
(4:29)
Zheutlin was sent to a hospital because of his medical training. Severely wounded men
were sent back to the U.S. for better care. Zheutlin talks about how the crippled young
men knew it was for a good cause.
(5:10)
Zheutlin describes people in New Jersey being able to see enemy submarines, and how
the beaches in Jersey would be oily from the wreckage.
(6:08)
Zheutlin was happy to be doing what he trained for. Some of the doctors there were also
professors, so he could keep learning. Zhevtlin also wrote a few medical papers while in
Europe. He was also very happy not to be at the front, but felt he was doing his job.

�(7:10)
Zheutlin is proud of the medical corps. He was a captain when he left the service and
would have been a major had he stayed in the reserves.
(7:44)
Zheutlin was under fire a few times while on trains. Zheutlin recounts one incident where
the commander was killed and he was the ranking officer.
(8:46)
Zheutlin talks about his views on patriotism and feels people were more patriotic back
then.
(9:04)
Zheutlin spent a year in the occupation army in Germany. Zheutlin talks about the basic
training doctors went through and how hard it was on the doctors, some of whom were in
their fifties.
(10:17)
Zheutlin talks about the ravages of war, and how allied bombers left standing buildings to
use as headquarters later. The major cities in Germany that were bombed smelled of
bodies.
(12:10)
Zheutlin talks about entering concentration camps. Zheutlin tells of a relative who
escaped and joined a guerilla group.
(13:51)
Zheutlin talks about his army training. Had infiltration courses, but no weapons training.
The “West Point of the medical corps” was in Pennsylvania.
(14:30)
Zheutlin feels lucky to have been in a hospital. He had clean bedding and regularly at a
table with others.
(15:00)
Zheutlin talks about trying to locate a relative in a concentration camp
(17:59)
Zheutlin describes how his escaped relative was a guerilla in eastern Poland and some of
the experiences of that relative, and how those experiences changed him.
(18:10)
Zheutlin talks about the operations of the Dutch underground and Post-Traumatic Stress
Syndrome and how thunderstorms still bother him. His experiences made him have
feeling for his fellow man.

�(22:00)
Zheutlin also flew in aircraft during the war to pick up severely wounded and was
amazed at how cheerful they were.
(23:24)
When Zheutlin returned the military offered a lot of enticements to go into the reserves,
but he decided to go into practice instead.

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                <text>Bertam Zheutlin served in the medical corps during WW II. Still in medical school when the war broke out, Zheutlin recounts what it was like to be a civilian waiting to go to war, as well as his experiences as a doctor during the war and the training he underwent. Zheutlin also talks about the psychological after effects of war and of a relative who had escaped a concentration camp in Poland and become a guerilla.</text>
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                    <text>Ziebart, Kenneth

Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Korean War
Interviewee’s Name: Kenneth Ziebart
Length of Interview: (43:49)
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman
Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Kenneth Ziebart of St. Joseph, Michigan and the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History
Project. Okay start us off with some background on yourself to begin with, where and
when were you born?”

I was born on May 23, 1928.
Interviewer: “And where were you born?”

In St. Joseph, Michigan.
Interviewer: “Okay, so did you grow up there?” (00:28)

I grew up in town till I was about seven years old and then we moved to a farm about six miles
out of town.
Interviewer: “Okay, now had your family been farmers all along or did your father lose his
job in the 30s or what happened?”

Well he lost his job I think in the 30s but he did have another job besides the thing but my
mother was a farmer and her family she comes from a farming family.
Off camera voice: “He was a butcher.”

�Ziebart, Kenneth

Interviewer: “Alright now you were still pretty young then but do you remember hearing
about Pearl Harbor?”

Definitely.
Interviewer: “Okay, how did you learn about it?”

Well I was– Had the radio on I was listening to the football game, now according to the things
that said that it was the Bears were playing New York Giants. I differ that I said they– I would
say they were playing the Green Bay Packers that day but I could be wrong.
Interviewer: “Okay, but you were listening to the Bears game?”

Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright so it comes on there, now–”

They stopped the program and announce that Pearl Harbor–
Interviewer: “Okay yeah, now did the start of the war affect things very much in your
community?” (2:15)

Oh definitely I think so.
Interviewer: “In what ways?”

Factories had to change there from making washing machines to making ammunition,
(untelligible) and stuff.
Interviewer: “And did you have rationing and that kind of thing?”

�Ziebart, Kenneth

What?
Interviewer: “Was there rationing?”

Oh definitely rationing yes, not so much for the farmers but for city people I think it was pretty–
Yeah, hard on them.
Interviewer: “Yeah cause you’ve got more gas because you were farmers.”

Yes we got– We received more gas.
Interviewer: “And you could grow your own food, at least some of it so–”

Yeah.
Interviewer: “Alright, okay now did you, as the war– As World War II dragged on did you
think it might last long enough for you to get into it?” (3:10)
Well I didn’t– Actually I went through 8th grade and then decided to farm. I didn’t go any
further in my education so I don’t think I– Well I know, I remember my 8th grade teachers
telling me that we would be in the Army in four years from whenever it was but it didn’t happen
exactly that way.
Interviewer: “At least not exactly that way, yet you do eventually wind up in the Army. So
how did that happen?”

Well I– When I was 18 I reported to the thing and I evidently missed the final draft of World
War II. So I– But they kept the information, you know from there and I think I wasn’t in the first
group that they was– Picked from my– Our area but I was in the second group for the Korean
war.

�Ziebart, Kenneth

Interviewer: “Alright, now cause the Korean war– Cause you registered for the draft so
you’re eligible for a certain number of years, and during that time period the Korean war
starts, it was in June of 1950. So when did you get drafted?”

I got drafted in 1950, the 17th of November.
Interviewer: “Right, yeah so and at that point they now need a lot more men in the Army
and so the draft gets expanded and they find you. Okay, where did you go for basic
training?”

Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri.
Interviewer: “Alright and what was that like?”
Well I kind of didn’t mind it because I could get a ride home on the weekends if we got passes
and stuff. I know that we took basic training and I know that our basic training was over at
Christmas time.
Interviewer: “So that was only about six weeks?” (5:36)

Six weeks, yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, now what did the basic training consist of?”

Infantry training basically, it was all infantry type things.
Interviewer: “Well how much emphasis was there on discipline, following orders?”

Well I think it was pretty sharp at, you know keeping us straight, learned how to make a bed for
one thing.

�Ziebart, Kenneth

Interviewer: “Okay, now how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to life in the Army?”
I think I had an easy time adjusting, I didn’t have no problems.
Interviewer: “Okay, well as a farmer you were probably in pretty good shape. So you
could do the physical work, and you were used to obeying orders?”

In a way, yes.
Interviewer: “Okay, so those are the things that throw people off and you were– Were you
a little bit older than all of the guys you were training with?”

Yeah I think I was basically, probably the group that I got called in was about the same age but
our cadre that was trying to train us was younger than we were and this did create a little
problem with them, I think more so than it did with us older ones– Fellas.
Interviewer: “So those guys were guys who went in when they were 18 and then they’ve got
a bunch of you guys who are 21.” (7:23)
They were in– Well they were in reserve see, and they got called in and that’s how this went
about.
Interviewer: “Alright, now you have six weeks and after the six weeks of basic do you get to
go home and come back or?”
Well there was a six week training thing that I didn’t get in, I was one of the few that didn’t
being– Having my name with Z it was– All the places were full and these fellas all went to–
That got that training went to Fort Camp Belvoir, Maryland.
Interviewer: “Or Virginia maybe?”

�Ziebart, Kenneth

That was engineering [unintelligible] And come back after six weeks there was a– That was one
part where there really was nothing for us to do that was left there.
Interviewer: “So you basically– You finish basic training and then you sit around Fort
Leonard Wood?”
Well they didn’t let us sit around, we were pulling KP and guard duty on a pretty basic time, you
know what I mean. We– They made sure, I mean there was stuff that we could do.
Interviewer: “Alright now did you eventually–”

I personally ended up in the hospital right after basic training because we were sent out to the
rifle range with a machine gun to get rid of some old ammunition and of course all day long
we’re shooting trees down, down at Fort Leonard Wood and I got kind of carried away a little
said “Well I’m gonna shoot left handed.” And I had a vaccination on my thing and that got–
Well I got infected and put in the hospital for a little, couple of– Few days, then we went on from
there.
Interviewer: “Alright, now did you eventually get any specialized training? Did you train
as an engineer?” (9:50)
No, no I didn’t.
Interviewer: “You said you just had basic training and then you didn’t get to go to Fort
Belvoir with the other guys.”

The only special training that I did get was probably in train tracks and stuff like that. We had a
little bit of that stuff but other than for what we went into when we did go to Korea, I was not
trained really on that.

�Ziebart, Kenneth

Interviewer: “Alright, so when did you go to Korea?”

Well we– Well–
Interviewer: “Or did you have more time in the U.S first?”
I’d say about a year from when I started– Went in and I– But took 13 days to get to Yokohama.
Interviewer: “Well let’s go back now to that first year though, so you had your basic
training at Fort Leonard Wood and then did you just stay at Fort Leonard Wood after that
or did they send you somewhere else?”

No, we were shipped out to the west coast to California to Camp Beale, it was Beale Air Force
Base after we went in and we did work a little bit. There I got a little training on machinery and
stuff. It was altogether different than the farming I did.
Interviewer: “Okay, now is this the kind of machinery that they used to maintain runways
and that sort of thing?” (11:23)

Yes, built runways.
Interviewer: “Alright, okay so you are getting some on the job training but in the regular
duty assignment.”

And the was up summer till fall when we were sent–
Interviewer: “Okay, now what part of California is Camp Beale in?”
Camp Beale is– Have you ever heard of Marysville and Yuba city? It’s east of San Francisco
about 50 miles from Sacramento.

�Ziebart, Kenneth

Interviewer: “Alright, so kind of central California.”

North east of sacr– So it probably be a little bit north of Sacramento.
Interviewer: “Alright, now was that in the valley there where Sacramento is or was it fairly
flat?”

Well it was pretty flat I thought, there was a lot of fruit raised in that area and like I said you
could see the mountains. We were close to the mountains too because we– If we had a pass to get
out of there we could ride to Nevada City and Green Valley, these were a couple small towns
between Reno in there. Fact even I went one weekend to Reno just to see what it was like.
Interviewer: “Okay, I mean did you go skiing or just go into the mountains, go into the
towns just to do something.”

Yeah we just– Mostly scenic stuff.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright now did you think that maybe you’d get to spend your whole
time there?” (13:15)

No, we realized we were in a camp and we were going somewhere, but you know they fooled us
because we had to pack up all the stuff and we were sure we were going to Alaska but that
wasn’t what it was.
Interviewer: “Alright, okay so now at the– You get kind of into the fall then towards the
end of the year, now you get to go to Korea.”

Now we get going to Korea.
Interviewer: “Okay, and how did they get you to Korea?”

�Ziebart, Kenneth

We got on a boat with 600 Navy men [unintelligible] and about 3500 soldiers on the boat.
Interviewer: “Alright, now was this a troop transport?”

It was– I kinda forgot the name of it but it had a sister ship that we come back on, I know the two
of them are very much alike.
Interviewer: “Alright, and were these like APAs, I mean big transport ships or are you
not–”

Yeah I think it was a big transport one.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright but it wasn’t a converted ocean liner or something.”

It was converted to move troops, I mean we had close to 5000 people on that boat.
Interviewer: “Alright, okay now how does that actually work in terms of feeding people or
anything else, how do you spend your time?” (14:42)
We got two meals a day, if you weren’t seasick, and that was one in the morning in different
shifts depending on what part of the boat you were in and you went in there to get it. You never
got a noon meal you got a— [phone ringing]
Interviewer: “Alright, now what was the weather like on the way over?”

Well we ran into the end of a typhoon that hit the Hawaiian islands, but we were north of that
and it took us 13 days before we landed in Yokohama.

[phone call]

�Ziebart, Kenneth

Interviewer: “Alright, okay so we settled that part– Alright now did you get seasick
yourself?”
Well no, not seasick I had a friend who wasn’t a doctor but he worked with the doctors, you
know and he got me with the pills and kept me going until I– I’ll tell you one fellow across from
me, we stand up when we eat and stuff, he got sick while we was there and he threw up across
table and I mean I couldn’t– Fool me for eating at that time but I remember my friend he got me
some oranges and he says “Just keep sucking on them, you’ll be alright.” And I did alright.
Interviewer: “Okay, now when you got to Yokohama did you get to get off the ship?”

Yes but right on to a railcar.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then where did they send you?”

To Sasebo, Japan where we got on a, what they called a ferry boat, a wooden boat and it was a
beautiful ship, I mean evidently it was– At one time it must’ve been a Japanese treasure or you
know whatever but it only took us overnight to get to Busan, Korea.
Interviewer: “Right, and then from there where did you go?” (17:45)

Well we went about– I think it was about six miles out of Busan to K-2.
Interviewer: “Okay, so that’s an air base.”

The air base yeah.
Interviewer: “Alright, and once you got there now what is your job?”

Well I started off I was the oiler on a train– On a crane and back then, you know you got a job
and you had a job for 12 hours straight every day and I think the fellow that was operating the

�Ziebart, Kenneth

crane the second day we were out there he says “Hey, you think you can take and operate this
crane?” He said “I gotta go in the thing for a little while.” I said “Yeah, I think I can do it.” And
he said “Well get up there and show me you can do it.” So I did and filled a couple trucks with
dirt, you know [unintelligible] extend the airport and he was satisfied so I did the rest but I never
saw him the rest of the day until I got back in the camp and he’s “Well now we’re going to two–
Three, eight hour things.” Well, that didn’t work out too good. Well, we got the– They decided
well they brought us all over and we had one company and we’re all going back the same time.
So they decided to split us in three groups and I got in a group that went up to Seoul and K-16 at
that time.
Interviewer: “Alright, so you spend most of you time up at a base near Seoul rather than
down near Busan.” (19:43)
And there I worked a night shift, 12 hour shift but I didn’t operate a crane or anything at first
until the fella that was operating the– This wasn’t a crane but it was a– We call them dip sticks it
was a hydraulic–
Interviewer: “Like a backhoe or?”

Yeah, backhoe like only it went forward, you know and then I got that job for the rest of the– My
time.
Interviewer: “So why did they need them around the clock?”
What’s that?
Interviewer: “Well I would think you’d do most that kind of work during the day,
wouldn’t you? When you can see something?”

�Ziebart, Kenneth

Well this– Where we did it they had six rock crushers and we were picking the rock out of thing
which this mountain– Hill was solid rock in places and there were times when we had to
dynamite the rock to get it out of there we couldn’t even shovel to get it out and–
Interviewer: “But you could do that around the clock?”

Yeah, we would– We very seldom run an asphalt plant and crushers during the night in fact they
never– They didn’t even have lights in that area, the generator was down near the– It was right
along Han River and the generator would be in that place.
Interviewer: “Alright, so if you had a night shift what would you do? If you had to work,
you know in the middle of the night?”

Yeah well I– After about two months before that I was just over 50 Korean workers that were
picking rocks and stuff from the crusher and then after that I operated a crane which was
probably for about six– Five or six months– Or the shovel.
Interviewer: “Alright, now on the base where you were at then did you– Was it dangerous
at all, were there any attacks?” (22:02)

Well when we got– When we landed Pusan they had six miles, square miles, of land in the
southern part, we could hear the shells.
Interviewer: “Okay so you arrive and– Well you wouldn’t have gotten to Pusan thought
until long after the Pusan perimeter fight.”

Exactly, I think it was just after– I’m thinking it was right after MacArthur landed at Inchon.
Interviewer: “Okay, well he lands at Inchon in September of 1950. So you’re not there yet
and they break out of Pusan perimeter at the same time.”

�Ziebart, Kenneth

Well, no we didn’t break out until he got– He cut the Chinese off.
Interviewer: “Yeah, that’s still September that’s– So that happens then we push north and
then they push back south again. So when did you get to Korea?”

What?
Interviewer: “When did you arrive in Korea?”

I would say probably mid November of– Well I know it was November of 1950 because– or
sorry, ‘51.
Interviewer: “ ‘51 yeah okay.”

1951 because we had our Thanksgiving dinner on that train going down to Sasebo.
Interviewer: “Okay yeah, alright so basically by then the front has basically stabilized
across the middle of the country.” (23:40)
Yeah by then they had the Chinese trapped is what happened and I didn’t realize there was that
many Chinese. I happened to see a movie of there and they said there was 350,000 were trapped
you know in–
Interviewer: “You don’t really trap–”
In South Korea, that gave up, you know surrendered it. Now where they kept them I don’t know,
they couldn’t have kept them in Korea I know that.
Interviewer: “Well I’m not sure about the numbers and so forth but there was a lot of back
and forth early on, we had pushed them back the last time– Okay, in any case so it’s fairly

�Ziebart, Kenneth

settled, I was asking then sort of how dangerous things were and you were talking about
being down at Pusan. I mean did the base down at Pusan get attacked at all? Did Taegu get
hit by enemy aircraft or anything?”

It was a– They were stopped at down at that area, they had stopped and we made– We had our–
When I say “we” I mean our army had them– There was a river that went across from one side to
the other and at that river they had set up.
Interviewer: “I was just asking when you were there. So when you were there, when you
were at K-2, so that’s end of ‘52 beginning of– Or end of ‘51 beginning of ‘52, at that time
were there– Did the enemy attack the base at all?”

I think they were driven back already, you know I spent one night I remember on guard duty in a
rail station and I could hear shells, you know were going off but other than that I didn’t see no
action really.
Interviewer: “Okay, now when you got to the area around Seoul, I mean you’ve got some
pictures of battle damage or whatever, damaged buildings and things like that.” (25:50)

Seoul was flattened at that time there was, I think, one or two buildings left in the city.
Interviewer: “Armies had gone through it several times by that time I guess, but the base
that you were on– Did your bases ever get attacked by enemy air units?”
Only– I’m gonna say only one time, small crane– Or plane come across one night and dropped a
few hand bombs in the middle and we had to fill the holes the next day so that the planes could
land.
Interviewer: “Okay, so mostly it was pretty quiet then.”

Yeah.

�Ziebart, Kenneth

Interviewer: “Alright so how– So basically you spent your time kind of running equipment
and– Now you mentioned–”

Like I say it was just doing a job to me in this country only we worked 12 hours instead of eight
hours.
Interviewer: “Right, okay now you mentioned that for a while there you were supervising a
gang of Korean laborers.”

Yeah.
Interviewer: “So what was that like?”
Well that wasn’t bad at all because these Koreans were hard working people, you know I mean
you didn’t have to tell them too much. They knew what they was gonna do and they did it.
Interviewer: “Did they have a Korean supervisor or somebody–” (27:20)
Yes, that– Well somebody that could talk English because that’s the only way we communicated,
most of them couldn’t talk English.
Interviewer: “Okay, now when you were living on these bases what kinds of
accommodations did you have?”

Well you saw the picture of the tents, we lived in tents, in my tent I think of 23 and me, I mean
age of 24 is when I got in there. I was put in charge of the tent because I had a corporal's thing
and I thought that was funny because all these guys were just privates or private first class, I
mean in fact I said to the guys “There must be somebody with more than me.” “Nope, this is
your tent.” I never actually met but one guy and he worked midnights with me and that’s how I

�Ziebart, Kenneth

got in touch with him. The other 22, they were gone, hopped into the village, they had their ways
in the village, I didn’t have no problems there at all.
Interviewer: “Alright, so you had a big tent and not a lot of occupants.”

Hm?
Interviewer: “You had a big tent and a lot of the guys were gone during the night?”
Oh I don’t know what they did– Well yeah they were all gone, in fact the colored– It was a
colored fellow, the fellow that was on duty– On night shift, he drove a water truck he’d see that
we had water all the time. He was real nice in fact he comes to me and I remember the first night
I was– Didn’t have to go to work at first, till the next day and I see these guys coming in,
everyone was black and you know I never saw that before, you know and I must’ve really shown
that to this fellow and he comes to me and he says “Don’t worry, I’ll take care of them.” He was
next in line behind me, he says “They’ll all be gone tonight.” He says “They’ll be back
tomorrow.”
Interviewer: “Okay, so were there a lot of blacks from the engineering units or?” (30:05)

In this one there was, we had 85% black.
Interviewer: “Because during World War II there had been a lot of all black engineer units
who did things like build the Burma Road and so forth.”

We had, like I said, about 15% white.
Interviewer: “Yeah, because they were integrating the Army by that time, so they were
starting to mix– So the unit you were in may well have been originally a black unit and
they were rotating some white troops into it.”

�Ziebart, Kenneth

Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, now let’s see– So you’ve got the big tents, now are the tents heated?
Do you have stoves in there?”
Oh yeah, we had two little stoves in there, the oil stoves that’s it, but one thing– Well we’re up
north there then, it got cold but very little snow, we saw very little snow up there.
Interviewer: “Now did you have a lot of Koreans working on the base?”
Oh yeah, we had our own house boy and they’d have in the– Where the cooks were they had a
lot of Koreans working in there.
Interviewer: “Okay and were you ever worried that some of them might be on the other
side?” (31:28)
No I didn’t worry about it because they all seemed nice, they were real nice I always thought but
they could’ve been, I mean because you can’t tell one from another.
Interviewer: “Alright, now did you have much of a sense of what was going on in the actual
war or were you just minding your own business?”
Well it was the 38th barrel was stopped and I mean there was no real fighting going on I don’t
think, to speak of. Like I say it was just like a job, a regular job like you do in this country.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you spend all of your time on the base or did you get to go
into Seoul or go anywhere else?”

I went into Seoul one time and that was when the– They have the monsoons in Korea and we
couldn’t work out in the– At night at the quarry because the river was high and flood waters
were coming in and– But if you didn’t have guard duty you could have time to go into Seoul or

�Ziebart, Kenneth

Yeongdeungpo which was a kind of a main city for industry in Korea and in fact we had to
vacate our area because the channel going around it, it was like a– Well it was a highland, and
we had to vacate it for about, oh a couple days and get out of there because we were afraid the
bridge was gonna wash out.
Interviewer: “So you got a little bit of time off for that.”

Yeah.
Interviewer: “Alright, and you said that Seoul was pretty well flattened, did we have
facilities that we had put up for people there?”
That was what was left, we didn’t put them up I mean we took them over, you know like we
went into Seoul to get some hamburgers and add five– The building we went into was five
stories high and the hamburger place, it was like McDonald’s but it was the fifth floor up and we
had waited probably three hours before you could work your way up there to get them and when
you bought them you better get at least a dozen at a time.
Interviewer: “Alright, now did you get to– Any kind of leave to go anywhere else?” (34:35)

I had one leave to Japan.
Interviewer: “Okay, and where did you go in Japan?”
Well, to tell you the truth I don’t really know.
Interviewer: “Okay, they just took you some place.”

Yeah I just was– Well I think it was in Tokyo and I stayed at a hotel there it was called Fuji
Hotel, it was as pretty nice place, for about a week and– Yeah, always found a girl that would

�Ziebart, Kenneth

take you shopping, if you wanted to go shopping, and she could save you a ton of money, so I
remember that.
Interviewer: “Alright, so how did the Japanese people treat you?”

As your best friend, they were very nice.
Interviewer: “Okay, did that surprise you at all having grown up in World War II?”

Not really, I think– You know they had a problem as far as the Japanese and Koreans, so they
didn’t– The Japanese really had to stay out of this, peace action.
Interviewer: “Yeah they had been in Korea and were not very nice, so Koreans didn’t like
them.” (36:05)

They raped that country.
Interviewer: “Alright, now if you think about the year you spent in Korea are there
particular things that stand out in your memory that you haven’t talked about yet?”

Well I was on the– During the monsoons, which was in August usually late July and August, I
was– Had to pull guard duty up out at the quarry where we had out asphalt plant and stuff, and I
was supposed to be relieved after four hours because there was– We had maybe ten guys that
worked out there at night, so we took– Supposedly took turns but I never got relieved all night
long. I know I fell asleep on guard duty but it was pouring rain all the time and there was a guard
house there, so I didn’t just sit in there and wait till morning. That was one thing I remembered
but somehow they got their thing screwed up and when they didn’t get their guys there I didn’t
think it would create any problem or anything nobody else was– I didn’t have to worry about
anybody else coming to take a crusher away so– They might come and blow them up but boy it
would have been hard.

�Ziebart, Kenneth

Interviewer: “Okay, did you have any problems either with theft or sabotage or anything?”
No I don’t really think so, I don’t recall any.
Interviewer: “So nobody was stealing a rock crusher or anything like that?”
No, that wouldn’t happen on a southern Korean, or north Korean might steal a southern Korean
thing. The other thing that I– I noticed how thin people were and I really felt sorry for them, you
know they went through all this big war and taken over by the Japanese and now this. Everything
getting blown up– Like Seoul wasn’t a bad city I think at one time, but it was flattened and they
rebuilt that whole thing I understand from what I see online and stuff everything’s rebuilt. In fact
Gimpo airport, basically we made our larger air field there become their international airport.
Interviewer: “Right, it still is.” (39:20)

Still is.
Interviewer: “Alright, okay so as you got sort of to the end of your enlistment did the Army
make an effort to encourage you to stay?”

Oh yeah.
Interviewer: “What did they offer you?”
Nothing, I don’t think– They may have offered something but I didn’t, you know it was just I
was ready to go home.
Interviewer: “Alright, now how did they get you back home?”

By boat, but it only took us nine days by boat.

�Ziebart, Kenneth

Interviewer: “Alright, was the weather better?”
Yeah we didn’t have a damn typhoon to fight.
Interviewer: “Alright, and where do you land in the U.S?”

San Francisco.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did they discharge you there or send you some place else?”
Oh no, we got sent to Camp McCoy in Wisconsin, that’s at Eau Claire, Wisconsin and it was
closed when we got there and they had to call in a unit to–
Interviewer: “The MPs?” (40:32)

A guard unit to come in and reduce– And I remember getting– I got– I was the last one on the
day before Thanksgiving to get [unintelligible] but it was at about quarter after 12 in
Thanksgiving. So that was my Thanksgiving I rode back– Well I had a car it was one of these– It
was a 49– What was the car we had, Rich?
Off camera voice: “35 Chevrolet.”

No, no that was– These were newer ones 49 you had one of them funny backseat, what was the
name of the car? They don’t make it anymore but it was a [unintelligible] I did lose a tire and a
thing going back home.
Interviewer: “But you had a car at Camp McCoy?”

Yeah, we had to go home– From home up to there on Sunday before we checked in out there. Of
course I got let go with civilian clothes because I had shipped my Army clothes home from San
Francisco and they never got there in time.

�Ziebart, Kenneth

Off camera voice: “Kaiser Frazer was the car.”

Kaiser, it was a Kaiser.
Interviewer: “Alright, now once you got back home now what do you do? So you’re out of
the Army–”

Well I was lucky I had been on a farm but I always found a winter job in town, in one of the
factories or some place and I just met here to stand at 3M corporation. They made– What did
they make, phonographs and phonographic material and I just stayed there for about 26 years and
after that– But they went bankrupt so I had to find another job.
Interviewer: “Alright, now when you look back at the time you spent in the Army do you
think you learned anything from it or if it affected you at all?” (43:27)
Yeah I– Okay I wouldn’t want to go through it again– I wouldn’t have given a nickel to go
through it again but I think I got an education. The one thing that I noticed was how good we
have it here in this country compared to the countries over there.
Interviewer: “Alright, well thank you for taking the time to share the story today.”

�Ziebart, Kenneth

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                <text>Kenneth Ziebart was born on May 23, 1928 in St. Joseph, Michigan. Ziebart’s family owned a farm and his father lost his job as a butcher during the Great Depression. He recalled hearing about the attack on Pearl Harbor over the radio when a newscast interrupted the football broadcast he was listening to. Since they owned a farm, Ziebart’s family received larger quantities of gas through wartime rationing. After missing the final draft for the Second World War, Ziebart was drafted for service during the Korean War in November of 1950. He attended Basic Training at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, where he was instructed by personnel that were younger than the recruits in training. After basic training, Ziebart was sent to Beale Air Force Base in California where he received basic instruction on machinery and light engineer work before being shipped to Busan, Korea in November of 1951. In Korea, he was stationed at an airbase as a crane oiler and was later sent to another base outside Seoul where he worked in mechanized excavation. He recalled how, one night, an enemy aircraft flew over the base and dropped small bombs near the airfield, forcing Ziebart and the engineers to fill in the holes in the runway for American planes to land safely. Nonetheless, both bases saw little combat action, theft, or sabotage during his tour in Korea. He also recalled supervising a group of Korean laborers who he described as incredibly hard-working. There were approximately 85% African American personnel in the engineering units Ziebart worked with, which surprised him. He also visited Japan while on leave for a week during which the Japanese were exceptionally nice to their American guests. Toward the end of his enlistment, Ziebart was shipped back to the United States and was officially discharged at Fort McCoy in Wisconsin. When he returned home, he acquired a job for a photographing company. Reflecting upon his time in the service, Ziebart believed he received a quality technical education as well as a greater appreciation for life in the United States.</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans’ History Project
Name of War: World War II
Interviewee’s Name: Myrtle Zietlow
Length of Interview: 28 minutes
Mrs. Zietlow’s Story (00:18)


Childhood (00:35)
o



Myrtle Zietlow spent much of her grew up and went to school in Woodstock,
Illinois, 50 miles NE of Chicago. (00:48)

Education (01:19)
o Following graduation in 1941 from high school she went on to attend the
University of Illinois. (01:35)
o The length of time she actually spent thinking about WWII was when she would
go to the movie theater and see the movie shorts since the U.S. was predominantly isolationist. (02:06)
o With WWI, still fresh in many Americans’ minds the thought of going to war the
prevalent attitude of resisting going to war again was the philosophy of many in
America at that time (02:45)



Pearl Harbor (03:11)
o When Pearl Harbor was attacked, it sent a shockwave through the country. Soon
afterwards, war was declared on Japan and Germany. The strong sense of patriotic
fervor hit her campus like a wildfire making many male students leave to join up.
(03:36)
o A few of the buildings on campus were converted into training centers. As a result
of this women’s roles changed. Many of the recruiters from Pratt and Whitney
Fellowship based in Connecticut that came to campus also came to train women
in the same jobs males had vacated to join up. They came to her campus in spring,
1942. (04:23)
o She attended various classes in mathematics and science to get a help her to get a
job. Graduated from the University of Illinois in 3 years. (06:44)
o Following graduation, she went by train to Hartford, Conncecticut, where she
attended machine school. (08:20)

�

Hartford, CT (08:27)
o Spent 6 weeks attending machine school and then another 6 weeks learning about
how to make military engines for aircrafts at engine school. (09:10)



War on the Home Front (10:10)
o Following this, she was assigned to different departments and eventually ended up
working in a research department doing calculations: analyzing parts of engine
distributions. (10:21)
o Worked 50 hours a week. Wasn’t paid much but what she did receive she spent
buying war bonds to buy supplies for the military. Describes how this system
worked. (11:21)
o Every now and again, they saw something they liked. People sacrificed much
during WWII, with little expectations to receive anything in return. (13:06)
o On VE Day, many celebrations occurred to celebrate the end of WWII. This
eventually meant that women were expected to return to their traditional jobs as
house wives. With these special experiences, women for the first time found that
they were capable of doing things society originally discouraged women to do. As
a result a changing perspective prompted many to form the Women’s Movement.
(14:05)
o After WWII, she went back Illinois and worked a variety of manufacturing
companies. Eventually ended up at a research institute in Crystal Lake, Illinois
(15:34)
o Briefly describes how she met her husband there in 1952. (16:19)

Mr. Zietlow Interview from Myrtle Zietlow’s perspective
Pre-Enlistment (16:25)


Background (16:30)
o Her husband was born on December 15, 1921 in Chicago, Illinois and eventually
attained the rank of 2nd Lieutenant. (16:36)
o After two years at Notre Dame University he enlisted in the U.S. Army Air Corps
and was inducted in August, 1943. (17:16)

Enlistment and Training / Active Duty (17:22)


Where he trained (17:42)

�o Attended basic and officer training and also flying school in George in which he
was trained in the usage of single and multi-engine aircraft. (17:47)
o He delighted in his aircraft training. Had a keen interest in glider training which
he did while stationed in North Carolina. (18:04)
o In her opinion, it was incredible that someone like husband could land a piece of
aircraft that was very difficult to land. (18:35)
o Enjoys the challenge that goes into it. Gliders, she mentions would have been
heavily used in the invasion of Japan to ferry supplies and ammunition if the Abomb had not been dropped. (19:11)
After the Service (20:32)


Background (20:37)
o Upon being discharged in October, 1945 he was certified as a commercial pilot
and as a pilot of single and multi-engine aircraft with gliders on top of that.
(20:50)
o After this experience, he was in the Reserves for an undisclosed amount of time.
(21:43)
o Took full advantage of the GI Bill and spent 2 years at DePaul University
finishing up his BA. Following this he went on to attend Illinois Institute of
Technology in Chicago where he got his Master’s and Doctorate degrees.
Describes the area he lived in brief detail. (21:55)
o After finishing his doctoral work, he found a job in Crystal Lake at the same
Research Laboratory where he met his wife. (23:18) They were soon married in
1952. (23:25)
o Further describes a few experiences with the interviewer growing up. (23:34)
o To wrap up Zietlow was appreciative of the chance to share her and her husband’s
story. (27:17)

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Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections.&#13;
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