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In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: William Quiles Rivera
Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 5/16/2012

Biography and Description
English
William Quiles is the brother-in-law of José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez and has been married to Juana “Jenny”
Jiménez for over 40 years. They live in Camuy, Puerto Rico where they are surrounded by Mr. Quiles’s
many brothers and sisters. Prior to moving to Camuy, Mr. Quiles and Ms. Jiménez met in Aurora, Illinois
where they lived for many years, raising their four children, Margie, Joey, Danny, and Sandy. Mr. Quiles
has long been active in local softball teams and bowling leagues and worked in the factories. He is well
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construction and built his own cement home. For many years he also worked on the cattle farm of a
close friend. Several of his brothers have been active with the Puerto Rican Independence Party.

Spanish
William Quiles es el cuñado de José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez y ha estado casado con Juana “Jenny” Jiménez
por más que 40 años. Viven en Camuy, Puerto Rico donde están rodeados con la familia de Quiles. Antes
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muchos años y criaron a sus hijos, Margie, Joey, Danny y Sandy. Señor Quiles ha sido parte de los juegos
de softbol y boliche, y trabaja en una fábrica. Es buen conocido y respectado en la comunidad de Aurora

�y Camuy. En Puerto Rico, Señor Quiles trabaja en construcción y construyo su propia casa de cemento.
Por muchos años también trabajo en una granja de vacas con un amigo. Unos de sus hermanos han sido
activos en el Partido independista Puertorriqueño.

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&#13;
The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. </text>
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                    <text>Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: William Ruiz
Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 7/7/2012

Biography and Description
William “Ninja” Ruiz is the brother of Mildred Ruiz-Sapp of Universes and they grew up in New York City
on the Lower East Side. He earned his B.A. in Theatre at Bard College where he also studied poetry.
Today he makes his home in Santurce, Puerto Rico and is a leading member of the Universes Theatre
Ensemble. Universes is a New York-based theatre group that fuses poetry, jazz, hip hop, politics, blues
and Spanish boleros to create its own productions which are performed on and off Broadway, nationally
and internationally. One of their most recent productions is “Party People” (2012) which is primarily
about the Black Panther Party and the Young Lords.

�Transcript

JOSE JIMENEZ:

Okay. Can you give me your name, (inaudible) --?

WILLIAM RUIZ:

My name is William Ruiz, a.k.a. Ninja. March 24, 1979. I was born

in the Lower East Side of Manhattan.
JJ:

Okay.

(break in audio)
JJ:

Okay, Ninja. If you can give me your name, where you were born, and what
year.

WR:

All right. My name is William Ruiz, a.k.a. Ninja. I was born on the Lower East
Side of Manhattan, March 24, 1979, Bellevue Hospital, and I was raised in the
Jacob Riis Projects on FDR Drive and 10th Street, and my father was a janitor at
Bellevue Hospital, where I was born, and my mother was a home attendant at
Pedro Albizu Campos Plaza.

JJ:

What’s that? Home attendant, what is that?

WR:

She’s a home attendant. She used to take care [00:01:00] of an old lady and
help her with her daily life. She used to feed her in the morning, make sure she
was bathed. She would take her to her doctor’s appointments and all that and
just make sure that, you know, the lady was taken care of. I went through the
whole public school system. I dropped out in ninth grade and then got back into
high school very next semester, so I dropped out for a summer, but I didn’t get a
high school diploma. I got a high school equivalency diploma from Satellite
Academy on Forsyth Street. And then after I finished that, I graduated and I went

1

�to college at Bard College, which is Upstate New York, and, there, I studied
theatre. And then, the year after I graduated, I joined up with the theatre
ensemble known as Universes, [00:02:00] and I’ve been touring with them -JJ:

What year was that?

WR:

That was 2005. I got with them and I ran with them on that first show called
Slanguage, which was about the evolution of slang in the hood and the way that
we speak. Even though it wasn’t an accepted language by society, we accepted
it as our way of communicating with each other. To us, it was the accepted
language, was to use words that are metaphorically linked to ideas. And then, in
2008, we - Universes, the crew that I joined - were sent out as ambassadors of
culture for the United States by the US State Department and Jazz at Lincoln
Center, and they sent us to Morocco, Tunisia, Romania, Turkey, Amsterdam, and
London, and we [00:03:00] basically went out and performed for predominantly
Muslim communities in each of those countries. And then, in 2009, we
premiered a play called Ameriville in Louisville, Kentucky, which was about the
way America and Americans reacted to Hurricane Katrina, you know, and
everybody had mixed reactions to that, and that’s what we documented in that
play. And, just today, July 7 -- what is today? 2012, we premiered our new show
called Party People, which is about the effects on today’s communities by the
Young Lords and the Black Panther Party and the Rainbow Coalition. So, that
premiered today, and we’re gonna have a good, long run of it here in Ashland,
Oregon, and then, hopefully, it’ll tour [00:04:00] around the country ’cause it’s a
message that everybody needs to hear. This is history that’s quickly falling by

2

�the wayside, and not much has changed in our society, so it’s stuff that we need
to always know about where we’ve been. That way, we can know where we’re
trying to go in the future.
JJ:

How many brothers and sisters did you have?

WR:

I grew up in a apartment with three siblings. I had my younger brother,
[Emanuel?], my sister, [Jeanie?] -- both of my sisters are older than me. Jeanie
and [Mildred?], and both of our parents who worked, and worked, and worked,
and finally, two years ago, retired, and they moved back to Puerto Rico.

JJ:

What town were they from?

WR:

They were from Lares, Puerto Rico, right? Both of them were from the same
barrios. My father was from Callejones. [00:05:00] I’m not really sure where my
mother was, but close by, and they didn’t meet each other until -- you know,
when their families moved to the Lower East Side. My mother was 12, or 13, or
something like that. My father was 15, I think. And then, the Lower East Side,
they met at Pitt Pool on Houston Street and Pitt, and they met there, and fell in
love, and they’ve been together ever since. And then, they just retired. My
father just retired and moved right back to his old town in Callejones, and that’s -we’re all real proud of that, you know, that we made it back. And then, I moved --

JJ:

Where was -- I’m sorry. [Go ahead?].

WR:

I moved back to Puerto Rico four years ago as a result of gentrification in the
Lower East Side. I could no longer afford to live there because NYU is
expanding, and Columbia is expanding, [00:06:00] so all those slums that we
come from, which wasn’t a good way to live, but that was our home, that kinda

3

�got all -- it all got bought up by NYU, so, now, that’s, like, student housing and
places for them to hang out, and it’s all gettin’ renovated so that they could have
a place to be, but we are gettin’ pushed out farther and farther. So, I wound up,
after I graduated from college, renting a tenement apartment in Brooklyn for
1,050 a month when, four years before that, they was goin’ for, like, 200, 600
dollars a month. Nothing changed. They’re still the slums. They just cost more
now. So, I did that for a year.
JJ:

Now, was this area Spanish, or --?

WR:

That was Bed-Stuy.

JJ:

Okay. I’m not --

WR:

Bedford-Stuyvesant.

JJ:

I’m not familiar with (inaudible).

WR:

Yeah. It’s mixed. It’s Black, Puerto Rican, Dominican, Mexican, and Black is
general ’cause there’s Black Puerto Ricans, Black [00:07:00] Dominicans, and
Black Mexicans, so, you know, it’s everybody that is fighting for a crumb from the
pot but ain’t gettin’ nothin’. That’s what was living there. But we were paying top
dollar to live in the slums, and I couldn’t do that anymore, so I moved to Puerto
Rico, where I had heard all these stories from my parents while I was growing up,
how great it was, how you never starve there. If you’re hungry, you just pick
fruits from the trees. We got chickens and everything, and I went there with that
mentality of Puerto Rico back in the ’50s, basically, and that’s not what I found
there. What I found was hood that was worse than the hood I was from. It was
more kill or be killed --

4

�JJ:

[This is where in?] Puerto Rico?

WR:

Santurce.

JJ:

Santurce.

WR:

I live in Santurce, home of the Cangrejeros.

JJ:

[Oh, the?] Cangrejeros. [Was it a crab?] --

WR:

It was a crabbing community way back in the day. Now, you know, you can still
eat crabs there, but that’s now what they’re known for. [00:08:00] Now, they’re
known for their access to the tourism that goes on in Old San Juan. All the
people who work in Old San Juan, can’t afford to live in Old San Juan, live in
Santurce or surrounding areas. So, that’s where I’m living now, and life is
actually a lot harder. Even though people think of Puerto Rico, they think of a
paradise, that’s not necessarily the case for everybody. The income is much
smaller than the income earned in the United States. You can get by on less.
The apartment that I live in in Puerto Rico is twice the size of any apartment I’ve
ever seen in New York. I live four blocks from the beach. It’s beautiful. There’s
always foliage on the trees. It’s never winter, but, you know, it’s --

JJ:

Why did you choose? What was the reason -- you said because of what your
parents were telling you [00:09:00] about Puerto Rico?

WR:

Yeah. It’s every Nuyorican kid’s dream to go back to Puerto Rico, and the
reason it’s our dream is because of the way that our parents talk about it, with the
nostalgia, you know, remembering the good old days. They were children back
in those days. Anybody who was a kid remembers their childhood days, no
matter where you’re from, with nostalgia. My son was born in Puerto Rico, and,

5

�one day, he’s gonna want to move to New York, thinking of the New York that I
left behind, and, if he does that, he’s gonna realize it’s not his home, and that’s
how I’ve come to realize Puerto Rico is not my home. Even though I live there
now, I’ve lived there for the past four years, it’s like growing a cactus in the
jungle, man. It’s not right. There’s something not right about it. I don’t click. I
don’t -JJ:

So, your home --

WR:

-- fit in there.

JJ:

Your home is New York?

WR:

Nah, man. New York is not my home no more. New York is not the place I
[00:10:00] left behind. New York belongs to other people now. I am a vagabond.

JJ:

That’s because of gentrification?

WR:

I live all over the place now.

JJ:

[You mean?] gentrification?

WR:

It was gentrification. That’s what forced me to move out, and now, when I go
back and I visit my old neighborhood, it’s not the same neighborhood I left
behind. It’s a lot cleaner, and there’s a lot less of us there.

JJ:

Okay. Now, you got into play, and acting, and all that, and drama school, and all
that --

WR:

Well --

JJ:

What was shaping your mind to get into that?

WR:

I didn’t know I was gonna wind up being a actor. I was always a poet and a
rapper, but then, when I got to college, I realized --

6

�JJ:

How did you get into that?

WR:

Well, when I got to college, I realized that I didn’t have enough education to
succeed in any of the departments, but I was always a class clown when I was in
public school. So, when I got to college, the only way I could use that skill was in
the theatre department. To be a class clown was acceptable in the [00:11:00]
theatre department. It meant that I wasn’t afraid of gettin’ up, and voicing my
opinions, and actin’ a fool in front of everybody. So, I did pretty good in the
theatre department. And then, after I graduated, Mildred, and Steve, and Flaco,
and Lemon, and Jamal had this thing going with Universes, where they were
blending poetry, and theatre, and music and making shows out of that. And so,
they asked me to audition, so I did, and they let me run with them, and it was -you know, I do theatre because it is what I’m capable of doing, not because it’s
the path that I’ve chosen.

JJ:

So, you’re a clown in school, and then --

WR:

And I couldn’t read. I couldn’t read.

JJ:

[You couldn’t read?].

WR:

I couldn’t do math, and I got accepted into this college because I did a great
interview. I impressed them. I was smart. Just because I couldn’t read and I
couldn’t do math didn’t mean [00:12:00] I wasn’t smart. I could watch a nature
show, and I absorbed it all quickly. I could hear stories and absorb things really
fast, so I was able to contribute in conversations. But then, when I realized that I
couldn’t do well in my tests in college, I couldn’t read analytically, I couldn’t break
down a book -- you know, I would read a book and get stuck on, like, three words

7

�and wouldn’t be able to finish the book. So, then, the next day, when I would get
to the class, and the class is discussing the book, I’ll hear what a student is
saying, and I jump off of that, off of my own experience, like I had read the book.
So, I was -JJ:

(inaudible).

WR:

-- talkin’ like I knew, but I was --

JJ:

But what was the reason? I mean, was it something internally, or -- I mean, [or
was it?] --?

WR:

I was doing well in college not because of what I was reading and learning there.
I was doing well in college because I had [00:13:00] absorbed so much growing
up in New York, and I related that to my professors and to my peers. Peers is a
funny word ’cause they weren’t my peers. They were just the same age as me.

JJ:

Tell me a little bit about New York. I know [you kinda stopped, and we’re gonna
get back?].

WR:

All right.

JJ:

What I’m trying to find out is what was it like? I mean, you said you were
absorbing stuff. What was it like growing up there?

WR:

All right. In New York, what I noticed all the way from kindergarten to high
school, all my teachers were Jewish. All the students were either Puerto Rican,
Dominican, or Black of some sort, so the teachers never related to us and looked
down on us. I never had a teacher that could speak Spanish. I never had a
teacher that knew what --

JJ:

You say they looked down on you. How?

8

�WR:

They [00:14:00] didn’t expect us to do well. You know, it was a factory. School
was a student factory. That’s what it was. They were just crankin’ us out, givin’
us whatever grades. It didn’t matter. They were just putting us through, saying,
”Okay. We’ve got this many students coming in this year. Get ’em all through.”
So, I didn’t learn much. The way the public school system in New York was run
wasn’t -- they weren’t trying to ensure that we learned everything we could learn.
They were trying to make sure that the numbers were right. Test scores were,
on an average, 65 to 75. That’s fine. And the teachers had 30 students.
Twenty-five of them made it to the next grade, that’s fine. That’s all that
mattered. The teachers weren’t connecting with us. They weren’t teaching us
things that were useful to us. They weren’t teaching us how to use our money
wisely. They weren’t teaching us how to start a career for ourselves. What they
were teaching us [00:15:00] instead was how to work for people. They weren’t
teaching us about credit cards, about how to not get into debt, or how to use a
credit card and maintain a balanced budget. They weren’t teaching us things
that were useful to us. They were teaching us things that kept us as a cog in a
machine. You know, they were teaching us how to find a job. Oh, they
encouraged us to get jobs in McDonald’s, which makes sense, right? Get a job
in McDonald’s.

JJ:

[Literally, they told you?] --

WR:

No. Why not teach a kid how to create something when they’re open --?

JJ:

They told you to get a job at McDonald’s?

WR:

Yeah. They told us to start with jobs at McDonald’s. Apply --

9

�JJ:

What was their reasoning?

WR:

The rationale is that you’re probably gonna get it. You’re probably gonna get the
job. Basically, in doing that, they taught us not to aim too high, and that’s what I
got out of the public school system. And then, when [00:16:00] you get out of the
public school system, what you’re faced with are -- you know, there’s the gangs
that you either click with or you don’t. The thing is --

JJ:

(inaudible) [schools?]?

WR:

They were in the schools. They were the people that were all around us. The
gangs were made of us. See, the Lower East Side was split into sections, then,
depending on what projects you were in. There was the Jacob Riis Projects.
Then was Lillian Wald. No, Lillian Wald was up in the hill. There was the Baruch
-- I went to PS 34, which is in Jacob Riis Projects. So, that was my elementary
school, and, while I was in elementary school, I wasn’t in a gang, but that was my
neighborhood. That was from 13th Street to 6th Street, was Jacob Riis projects,
and --

JJ:

And what was the name of the gang?

WR:

Dime Street Mobsters --

JJ:

(inaudible).

WR:

-- was 10th Street. That was DSM.

JJ:

What were some of the other gangs?

WR:

Well, [00:17:00] there was that gang. There were others all in throughout there,
but there were so many gangs. There wasn’t big mob gangs, you know? The
gangs consisted of, like, 30 to 50 people, and it was just kids, and it wasn’t even -

10

�- there wasn’t a job to do. It was just your friends. That’s all it was. And then,
when I went to junior high school, I went to Junior High School 22, which was in
the Baruch Projects, or Baruch, and, there, I clicked with my cousin’s gang, the
Delancey Street Boys, and that was all from the seventh grade to the ninth
grade. That’s the gang I was with. And then, I went to high school in Seward
Park, which was in the hills -JJ:

So, what did they do? Delancey Street Boys, what --?

WR:

What did we do? We smoked weed, and we hung out with our girlfriends, and
we listened to music. And then, there was a new wave of a Dominican [00:18:00]
migration into the Lower East Side, so the Delancey Street Boys was mostly
Puerto Rican and Black, so we started having beef with the Dominicans.

JJ:

About what year was this?

WR:

1993, ’94. Any fights that we was having was with Dominicans at that time
because we didn’t understand each other. You know, they had a Caribbean
lifestyle, and the Puerto Ricans from New York at that time had a New York
lifestyle. We thought that the Dominicans dressed funny because they wore
shorts and shoes with no socks, and they had Caribbean-style haircuts. They
didn’t speak English. So, we discriminated on them for that, and we abused
them.

JJ:

What do you mean?

WR:

We fought. You know? They were in the ESL program, which was the English
as a second language, [00:19:00] so the school was divided. There was the
regular Junior High School 22. Then, there was Vanguard High School, which

11

�was also in our school. It was, like, 15 students were in that high school. And
then, there was the English as a second language, which was mostly the
Dominicans or kids from the Caribbean. They could have been Puerto Ricans
too, but, to us, they were Dominicans, and we didn’t relate. We were very
different, and I felt like my neighborhood was being taken over by them, so that’s
why I felt like I had to stand guard. I had to fight them. So, whenever Delancey
Street Boys would get out into the back of the schoolyard, and then the English
as a second language students, they would come out, we would bully them and
make fun of them, and I remember, one time, this kid -- we were messin’ around
with this kid’s little brother, and then he came out and defended his little brother,
and then, [00:20:00] you know, he got hit, and then all the Dominican kids came
out to his defense, and then we brawled. And, now, today, I feel bad about that,
feel like it was stupid, but we didn’t know any better. We didn’t know to think,
like, we should be united. I didn’t think like that back then. I thought of what
made sense, and what made sense to me, what everybody was thinking, was we
should be fighting them and make them scared enough that they got to leave our
neighborhood ’cause we thought it was our neighborhood, when -JJ:

(inaudible).

WR:

-- in fact, it wasn’t our neighborhood. It’s never been our neighborhood. It was
just the place where we were.

JJ:

But, I mean, it was a Puerto Rican neighborhood [before, right?]?

12

�WR:

Yeah, but, even before that, it wasn’t a Puerto Rican neighborhood. It was a
Jewish neighborhood. You know, it’s never been anybody’s. It belongs to
whoever owns it, and we never owned it.

JJ:

So, before that, the Jews had problems with the Puerto Ricans (inaudible)?

WR:

[00:21:00] I don’t know. I wasn’t around back then. That was way before my
time.

JJ:

But you definitely had problems with the Dominicans trying to take over your
neighborhood.

WR:

During the early ’90s, yeah. That’s what the beef was, was with the Dominican
kids.

JJ:

Okay. So, it wasn’t, like, urban renewal or anything like that? [They just?] --

WR:

We didn’t know about it.

JJ:

This was a natural --

WR:

We didn’t know about it. I think it was 1988 --

JJ:

[I don’t wanna put words?] --

WR:

Yeah, no, no. I don’t know. I’m not sure, but I think it was 1988 when the police
came into Tompkins Square Park and took out all the homeless people. Before,
my understanding of the village was that Tompkins Square Park was the village
’cause people had tents set up in there. That’s where all the homeless people
were. So, that’s why I understood it to be called the village. I don’t know that
that’s right. That was my understanding of it, and, sometime around there, the
cops came in and beat everybody out of the [00:22:00] park, and that should
have represented the beginning of gentrification right there, but I didn’t know it at

13

�the time. None of us knew it. We just thought they were cleaning up the
neighborhood, and cleaning up the neighborhood meant great things. It meant
that, now, we could use the park for a couple of years, until all the artists start
(inaudible) college students start moving in, and then college students who don’t
have to pay the rent, but their parents pay the rent no matter what it costs, so the
slum lords are like, ”Oh, so I could charge you 900 dollars for the rent, and you
still gonna pay it?” So, they started charging 900, then 1,000, then up to 3,000
dollars.
JJ:

So, the process, if I’m understanding what you’re saying, is, first, there was a
Puerto Rican community. Then, artists came in?

WR:

Yeah. It was a Puerto Rican community. Then, a bohemian community started
getting built --

JJ:

Bohemian [meaning?] (inaudible).

WR:

-- in the gaps. Right. And then, after that, you know, this arts culture gets built,
and from that, what happens is scholarly people start coming in and saying, ”I
wanna be [00:23:00] part of this artist community. It’s beautiful.” So, they start
moving in, and they can afford more than the artists ’cause a artist is broke by
nature. If you got money, I don’t know, really, what business you got being a
artist. Art comes out of struggle. Art comes out of pain. Anyway, that ain’t
gonna make sense to somebody, but it makes sense to me.

JJ:

Right. So, the rents were a little lower [then?].

WR:

Before that Tompkins Square Park riot happened, the rent was low. It was the
slums. It was a hard time. Nobody had any money. Then, the cops came in,

14

�and cleaned up Tompkins Square Park, and started beautification of the
neighborhood.
JJ:

The cops started this?

WR:

No. The cops cleaned it up, and then, from somewhere, somebody decided they
were gonna invest money in cleaning up this park, obviously with the goal of
raising [00:24:00] the value of the land, which, yeah, that’s great, but can you
raise the value of the land for us, who live there? That wasn’t the intention.
When they started cleanin’ up the parks in my neighborhood in the projects, we
should have seen what was coming next, was that they would clean up the
neighborhood and then move us out so they could move a different breed of
people in. They didn’t clean it for us. At first, we thought they were cleaning it for
us to give us a better place to live in. That was not the plan.

JJ:

So, you believed that they were fixing it up for the Puerto Rican community at
that time?

WR:

We did. We believed that they were fixing up our neighborhood for us.

JJ:

Did they say that in meetings, or --?

WR:

I didn’t go to meetings. I didn’t know --

JJ:

Newspapers?

WR:

I was not an active participant in civics at all. I didn’t think like that.

JJ:

But you felt that they were [changing the neighborhood?].

WR:

I thought they were really changing the neighborhood and fixing [00:25:00] it up
for us. I thought it was a new time and things were gonna get better for us. It
was during Clinton years, when I started being awake to it. We had so much

15

�money. America was rich, you know? And they were fixing, so I thought they
were fixing it because we had this surplus of money. So, it just made sense.
Yeah, of course. We got all this money now. Let’s fix everything. Great. Let’s
get better education and everything. It wasn’t for us, though. They fixed it so
that the land value would go up so that the rent could go up, and, as a result of
the rent going up, we could no longer afford to live there anymore.
JJ:

Now, this was your community. How did you feel about that, that they were
doing that, they were making these changes and --?

WR:

When I realized it, I was in college. It was my first year of college, and I went
away, and I was away for three months, and then I came back, and I saw. If I
had stayed there, I wouldn’t have seen it ’cause the change is so gradual,
[00:26:00] but I was gone for three months, and I came back, and, all of a
sudden, there were white kids that looked like football players walkin’ around in
my projects, and that was unheard of, and I was really confused. I was like,
where’s the crew? Where is everybody? Everybody was in jail because they
had built a new precinct on 9th Street, right in front of the projects, and anybody
that was hangin’ out, they would find a reason to arrest you. So, basically, our
guards weren’t there anymore. Our guards were all in jail, you know, people who
would guard against these football jocks walkin’ around in our neighborhood. I
know that doesn’t sound like a bad thing to a lot of people, but, to us, it
represented a change that we couldn’t fight against. So --

JJ:

So, what was your response to that?

16

�WR:

My response was I got some of my friends together, and, you know, the
response was [00:27:00] violence. If we saw people walking around in our
neighborhood that weren’t from our neighborhood, we would harass them to let
them know that this was the Lower East Side. You don’t come in here without
permission. You don’t come down here without having family in here. And
vandalism. We would watch, like, if somebody that wasn’t from the projects
would park their car in the projects, we would wait for them to leave and puncture
their tires or smash a window. You know, let ’em know that this is not the place
to park.

JJ:

Where did you get this idea to fight ’em?

WR:

I don’t know that we got the idea to fight them. It was just a instinct, you know?
Even though those people weren’t united as a gang, we saw them as the other,
so they were the obvious enemy to us. They were the new [00:28:00]
Dominicans. White Americans. We were defending our neighborhood. It’s
natural. It’s tribal. It’s an instinct to defend your territory, and I thought that was
my territory, so I was defending it the best way I knew how. No need for
confrontation. I’ll just let you park your car there. Go ahead. Park your car, and
then walk away, and then try to drive out at night. Good luck. And then,
vandalism was another thing. I felt like they were cleaning it up, and that’s when
I started realizing they weren’t cleaning it up for us. They were cleaning it up so
that those people could come through here, and that’s when I started really
vandalizing and doing a lot of graffiti, which I thought was art anyway. I thought it
was great, so to put it up was kind of cool, and I knew it would keep them out

17

�’cause they were scared of it. And, you know, breaking new things that they had
put up in the park, or they would plant a tree, and I would break it, and I felt like
that was the only [00:29:00] way we could keep our neighborhood, was if I
destroyed it, which sucks, you know, that the only way we could keep our things
if we kept it dirty, and here they are, trying to fix it, and the older folks don’t
understand why we’re destroying everything, but that was the logic to me at the
time, was, if you wanna stay here, you got to destroy the good things that they’re
bringing in. We didn’t bring those good things in. They brought it in. They’re
buying us out, basically, with trash, stuff that we don’t need, really, ’cause -JJ:

So, you had this logic, but (inaudible) --

WR:

It was confused logic. It wasn’t logic.

JJ:

I don’t understand where it comes from because, I mean, (inaudible) --

WR:

It was rage.

JJ:

[Why you just didn’t?] let it go? Just let it go like everybody else [that didn’t?] do
anything? Why was it so [deep?] with you is what I’m saying.

WR:

’Cause --

JJ:

[Other people just let it go?].

WR:

-- I was -- I couldn’t just let it go. [00:30:00]

JJ:

Had you read about gentrification [in other areas?]?

WR:

No, I didn’t know how to read. I didn’t know how to read -- I just knew it was
something wrong. I knew that it was our neighborhood, and all these friends that
I had growing up with wasn’t around anymore, and I just linked it. It has to be
because of them. It has to be because of these people who are here now that

18

�my friends are not here no more, and I had rage, and we didn’t have a leader to
direct us and say, ”No, the right thing to do is this.” We didn’t have that. We
didn’t have a smart person in my neighborhood. There was nobody telling us
how to do it the right way. We were just the crazy kids on the corner who
couldn’t be told what to do. We didn’t have respect for our elders. [00:31:00]
There was no real reason to. Nobody had ever stood out to us as, you know, a
community leader. If there was one -- there probably was one in the Lower East
Side. I never knew who he was or she was. They never presented themselves
to us. So, me and my boys, we did the opposite of what those people wanted us
to do. Those people wanted us to leave all the stuff nice, but they weren’t down
with us, so why were we gonna do what they wanted us to do? So, we were like,
no. Fuck it. You’re gonna go plant trees in our neighborhood without askin’ us
permission? We gonna take ’em out. You know, or you gonna park your nice
cars here? Go ahead. You got to buy new tires, though. Don’t ever park here
again.
JJ:

What were your parents thinking?

WR:

My parents didn’t know I was doing that.

JJ:

[00:32:00] And did they say anything about (inaudible)?

WR:

My parents thought I was going to church all the time. My parents were not
revolutionary at all. My father was very, you know, just keep your head down.
Just do your job. Do your job. He worked as a janitor in Bellevue Hospital, and
he went to work almost every day. He did overtime hours. He busted his ass
working so that he could keep us fed, and keep the rent paid, and lead us by

19

�being a good example. My mother was in church all the time. She was a
Pentecostal, and she believed very much that God was gonna solve our
problems, so just pray. When things are wrong, just pray. Don’t get up and do
things out of anger. Just pray, and God’ll make a way, and I believed that for a
long time, but then I stopped believing that God was gonna make a way, and I
stopped believing that keeping your head down and going with the stream was a
good idea, [00:33:00] but they didn’t know I was doing that. My mom thought I
was going to church all the time. My father thought I was in school all the time,
but, really, I was being a teenager.
JJ:

And this was during high school.

WR:

During high school, mm-hmm. And then, when I got to college, you know, it was
different. I lived Upstate. I was with a bunch of white kids.

JJ:

You said you dropped out (inaudible).

WR:

I dropped out of high school for a semester. Actually, I didn’t drop out of high
school. I didn’t go to high school, but I was still registered, and then I got left
back, so they were gonna make me do the ninth grade again for a third time, so I
was like, ”Nah, forget that.” So, that’s when I enrolled in a second chance high
school. It was a magnet school called Satellite Academy on Forsyth Street, and
that was the first time I had any teachers of color, and that was when I started
[00:34:00] learning for the first time, was my --

JJ:

Before that, it was all --

WR:

-- tenth and eleventh grade.

JJ:

-- Jewish teachers, or --?

20

�WR:

Before, they were people who didn’t understand us. You know, they weren’t from
our culture.

JJ:

You didn’t like them?

WR:

It wasn’t that I didn’t like them. I mean, I thought it was normal, but they didn’t
even know how to speak to us. They couldn’t relate to the students. They
couldn’t help us. They weren’t trying to help us. That wasn’t the goal.

JJ:

You could feel that [there wasn’t?] (inaudible)?

WR:

Right. No, they weren’t teaching us how to do great things.

JJ:

Were they angry? Were they --?

WR:

No, they weren’t angry. They were very nice and passive, but they also didn’t
care if we didn’t care. But that was different in high school. In high school, I
noticed that those teachers of color, they did care. If we didn’t care, they cared
[00:35:00] that we didn’t care, and they went out of their way to make us care,
and, you know, they told us why it’s important. That was when I first learned
about Taínos. Before that, none of my Jewish teachers could have ever told me
about a Taíno. They didn’t know what that was. I don’t know that they could
have found Puerto Rico on a map. There was no way they could teach us about
ourselves. They didn’t come from us, and it wasn’t until high school, and that
was when my rebellious phase was really taking over. That’s when I was all
about hanging with the clique, and smashing things, and taggin’ my name up all
over places, and seeing where I could climb up higher than anybody else and get
my name up higher, you know.

JJ:

So, (inaudible), [you mean more?] like a gang type of --

21

�WR:

Yeah.

JJ:

Or just (inaudible).

WR:

Right. Right. That’s what I mean by rebellious, is just [00:36:00] doing what
people didn’t want me to do, you know, doing bad.

JJ:

And this was in high school.

WR:

It started in junior high school, when I really liked fighting.

JJ:

But this was before the teachers, the new teachers.

WR:

Right. Right. When I got those new teachers in the Satellite Academy, that’s
when I started changing, and I think that’s when I started becoming aware of the
gentrification, but it was because of those teachers. If we had had teachers from
the beginning that could tell us what we were coming from, what we were going
through, I think my mind would have developed in a whole different way. I would
have been alert to that all, and it wasn’t until my tenth, and eleventh, and twelfth
grade that I started finding out about Taínos, finding [00:37:00] about
gentrification, about when Puerto Ricans got to New York. You know, stuff that I
cared about or stuff that I realized then I cared about. I didn’t know I cared about
that. I didn’t know it existed. I didn’t know to think about that, and that would
make a big difference if we were actually taught by people from our own culture.
That would make a big difference.

JJ:

So, this is when you begin thinking about the theatre? All of a sudden, you think
theatre, or --?

WR:

No, no. I was afraid to perform, but I was a performer.

JJ:

Was this high school?

22

�WR:

No, it was in college when I started doing theatre.

JJ:

And you were studying what? What was your major?

WR:

My first major was photography, but then, in order to be a photography student,
you had to be able to afford film. You had to be able to afford a camera. You
had to be able to afford all the chemicals to develop your pictures and all that,
and that’s when I realized, oh, you can’t be [00:38:00] poor and be a photography
major.

JJ:

Photography why? Why photography?

WR:

Because my sister and my brother-in-law -- Mildred and Steve started a
community center in the Bronx called The POINT, and, in there, they had a
program from International Center of Photography, and that’s where I started
learning photography. This was while I was still in high school, but I was going to
this community center, and I started learning photography, and I used to go
around the neighborhood and take pictures about things in the neighborhood,
and I liked that, and people from the neighborhood liked to see themselves in
pictures. So, you know, I’ll take a picture of some people hangin’ out on the
corner, and then, the next day, I develop it and bring it to them, be like, ”Yo, this
is y’all,” and they’d like that, and that made people happy and made ’em smile,
and I liked that. So, then, when I got to college, I was like, ”I wanna be a
photographer, and I wanna go back and take pictures of the neighborhood,” and
that’s when I found out that Jacob Riis, whom our projects were named after,
was this famous Jewish guy who got famous because he photographed the slum
conditions that the Jewish [00:39:00] people were being forced to live in, and I

23

�was like, ”Oh, man, I could be like the next Jacob Riis for Puerto Ricans.” So,
that was my dream, but then I realized that you can’t be poor and be a
photography major. That was for kids who could afford that or who got grants for
that, and I didn’t know how to get a grant. And then, I couldn’t do anything in any
other department because I couldn’t read well. I couldn’t do math, but -JJ:

What was your problem with reading? (inaudible).

WR:

The first book I had read was in college, was during my freshman seminar, was
this book, Why Elephants Weep. It was about anthropomorphism and how
humans give human traits to animals. Like, ”Oh, that dog is happy, or that dog is
sad.” We don’t know how a dog feels. We don’t know if a dog feels happy or
sadness. I’m sure they do, but [00:40:00] that’s what it was about. So, that was
the first book I read, and that was in college. Why hadn’t I read a book before
that? I could read ’cause I read comic books, and I read subtitles on movies and
stuff like that.

JJ:

So, you were able to read. You just (inaudible).

WR:

I could read a little bit, yeah.

JJ:

[You just didn’t like the other books that?] --

WR:

I just couldn’t understand. You give me a book with chapters in it and, like, I
wasn’t accustomed to reading a book for a long time.

JJ:

Right. But comic books was fine?

WR:

Yeah. It’s short. You read 15 pages, and you’re done, and it’s adventure, and
it’s only a few words here and there. It’s pictures. So, yeah, I didn’t --

JJ:

Those hard books made you think that you couldn’t do something.

24

�WR:

I didn’t think I could read. And then, I started reading plays, and I read this Oscar
Wilde play, and it had masks and stuff, and I was like, ”Oh, masks are cool.”

JJ:

One day, you just took on to reading a play, or --?

WR:

[00:41:00] Yeah. My boy, [Juan Carlos?], he was in the theatre department. He
was Dominican, and he was like, ”Yo, you should come and audition for this
play,” and I was like, ”All right.” So, I went and auditioned, and I got the role,
and, now, I was like, oh, shit. I got to read? So, I had to read this script, and I
read it, and I played the role, and I did well, and I was like, ”I could do this. I
could do this.” And I could read. I just had never challenged myself like that.
So, I started reading, and then I read Beckett’s Waiting for Godot, and I loved
Beckett. I loved absurdists, crazy theatre. I liked that, and then I got really into it,
and I was like, ”Oh, this is --”

JJ:

What do you mean, crazy theatre? ’Cause I’m not --

WR:

Like, things that don’t make sense. In this play, I got this character, Primo, right?
Who’s basically --

JJ:

This is Party People? In Party People?

WR:

In Party People. I wrote this [00:42:00] character named Primo, who’s basically a
warped revolutionary, but you don’t know what side he stands on. You don’t
know what he’s fighting for, what’s his cause, and, to me, that’s absurd, is
somebody who devotes theirselves 100 percent entirely to something, but you
can’t quite tell what that thing is. He fights for this side and that side, and, in
doing so, he makes both sides fight against each other. I like writing stuff like
that, stuff that confuses the audience and makes them agree with me and

25

�disagree with me at the same time. And I noticed that Beckett was really good at
that. And then, you know, I did a couple of plays. I got through my four years. I
struggled through it. I had to get by on charisma, but I made it through, and I
graduated, and I got a bachelor’s degree, and [00:43:00] 25,000 dollars of debt.
JJ:

But a bachelor’s degree in what --?

WR:

In theatre.

JJ:

In theatre.

WR:

In theatre, and I minored in archaeology. This was a big thing for me. I wasn’t a
good reader, and my archeology professor knew that, but I had a great
understanding for timespan and human characteristics in tribal situations.
Because of comin’ up in a gang, I understood how the Lenape tribes in New
York, which, today, we call the Delawares -- how they related to each other in
small groups. So, I had this great understanding for how deep the layers of earth
-- what they represented by color change, what timespan each strata
represented. So, when I would dig, I understood the wall that I was looking at,
but I couldn’t understand the book that explained what I was looking at when I
was looking at the wall, and my professor [00:44:00] noticed that in me. He
noticed that I could look -- I could dig down and dig a straight wall down into the
ground and show the different stratigraphy, and where there used to be rivers,
and where somebody threw a bunch of clam and oyster shells -- this is where
they were sitting -- or where there was a fire hearth, where they might have sat
and made camp for the night while they (inaudible). I understood how to read to
ground, and my professor saw that in me, and he made me the crew chief. I was

26

�his crew chief from the time I graduated for four more years after college, and I
led his digs, and, you know, there were some students who were great readers,
and he had them analyze things in a different way, but me, he would sit me
inside of a pit and have me look at a wall and explain to him what happened
there for the last 8,000 years, and I could do that by [00:45:00] looking at the
layers of dirt, and the angles, and what the dirt was made out of, the [acidity?]. It
was all this stuff that went into play, and I could read a wall of dirt, but I couldn’t
read a book. It was sad but really cool at the same time. So, I did that, and I
don’t know. I think my brain just works in a different way from most people.
JJ:

Tell me about Party People. I mean, what is it about? [I mean, you did it
today?].

WR:

All right. Party People -- that’s a deep question. What is Party People about?

JJ:

And, you know, you can start with how you guys began thinking about it,
(inaudible).

WR:

I think Party People is about --

JJ:

And why.

WR:

It’s about aging, and it’s about passing the baton to the next generation. Nobody
ever passed the baton to me or anybody that I knew in my [00:46:00] generation.
Nobody that had been through what we were going through in the Lower East
Side had passed the baton to us. None of our elders in the Lower East Side told
us, ”Oh, yeah, we went through that 10 years ago or 20 years ago. We know
what you’re going through right now. You just got to do this and this.” We didn’t
get advice from nobody. Nobody ever passed us the baton. And then, they got

27

�older, and older, and older, and either disgruntled, or felt like they failed, or felt
sad about the choices that they made, but they never led us. You know, they
could have had a giant army of people if they had just stuck with it, and let shit
go, and taught us, but there was never anybody from them ever around to teach
us, so we had to learn it just the same way they had to learn it, so we never got
anywhere. We got about as far as they did, and I think Party People is a
reflective [00:47:00] look at what happened to everybody 40 years later. Where
are their minds today? Where are their children, and where are their children’s
children? What is everybody going through today as a result of all that war that
went on back then, the post-traumatic stress that everybody got, the -- you know,
some people feel like they failed. Some people feel like they succeeded. Some
people gave up, and left it behind, and never turned back towards it again, and
some people are still struggling today with it, and still fighting for people’s rights,
and fighting for justice, and I think that the main thing that my character is talking
about in the play is a feeling of having been left behind to fend for ourselves
instead of having been taken under the wing of all those people that fought for us
and trained to continue the fight [00:48:00] for the next generations that are
coming behind us. I think that’s what my character’s trying to talk about, is that
we kinda got left behind instead of fostered. You know, we didn’t have mentors.
JJ:

But that’s the character Primo.

WR:

That’s the Primo character.

JJ:

Okay. And what about the rest of the play, Party People? [What’s that?] --?

28

�WR:

The thing is that the play touches on a lot of topics. It depends on who you are,
the viewer, when you come into the room. Each person that sees the show is
gonna leave with a different message. Some people are gonna leave with the
message of, damn, we did give up. Some people are gonna leave with the
message of that’s right, we are still fighting. Some people are gonna leave with
the message of, you know, this wasn’t all based on hate. The whole revolution
was not based on hate. It was based on love for people’s communities. Some
people are gonna leave with [00:49:00] all those people just had guns. They
were scary. You know, it depends on who you are and what frame of mind
you’re in when you come see the show. That is gonna dictate what you leave the
show with ’cause we touch on so many different topics, and it was written by
three people --

JJ:

Like what kind of --

WR:

-- but we had so many collaborators.

JJ:

What kind of topics (inaudible)? What kind of topics?

WR:

Our topics range from historical events that happened in the ’60s, and ’70s, and
’80s to concepts that were going on in people’s minds at those times, what
revolution meant to different people. Not everybody had the same definition of
revolution. There’s an FBI character in our play. To him, obviously, revolution is
a whole different thing. His concept of revolution [00:50:00] is quelling the
people’s struggle, and that restores a safe America to him. Other people see a
safe America by feeding the children and making sure that they go to school with
a full belly and the vitamins that they need so that they can learn. For some

29

�people, the revolution was about making sure old people were safe and got
escorted to cash their social security checks and made sure that they didn’t get
robbed on the way back home. For some people, the revolution was about
fighting police brutality and making sure that we weren’t being abused by an
oppressive system of outsiders that were in our community. For some people,
the revolution was about education. For some people, the revolution was about
living standards. For some people, the revolution was about working standards.
Everybody fought for a different thing, but we all fought together, and that went
away at some point. You know, that [00:51:00] wasn’t around when I was a kid.
Nobody was fighting for anything when I was a kid. We were fighting for territory.
We were fighting for control of drug sales. We weren’t united when I was
growing up. We were at war with ourselves, and we didn’t know that, in the ’60s,
there were people fighting together for something. We didn’t know about all that
history. I didn’t learn about the Black Panthers ’til I got to college. I didn’t learn
about the Young Lords ’til about the end of my college. You know, I didn’t know
about that stuff. I didn’t know about what y’all did. Nobody ever taught us that.
That legend, that cultural history didn’t exist for us. Maybe for some people, but
not for me. I didn’t know about any of that. Nobody taught me that.
JJ:

So, you go to college, and you hear about these groups, the Young Lords --

WR:

[00:52:00] Yeah. When I went to college --

JJ:

Black Panthers.

WR:

-- Bobby Seale came and spoke at my college, and I went because all the
revolutionary cool kids went to that talk. I didn’t know who Bobby Seale was. I

30

�just thought it was a cool name. One of the Wu-Tang members, one of the
members of Wu-Tang Clan, that was his nickname. I was like, ”Oh, that’s hot.
Who’s this dude?” Talkin’ about the Black Panthers. ”Oh, I heard about the
Black Panthers. What’s that about?” And then, I went, and I heard him talk, and
the stuff that he was talkin’ about was about -- you know, it wasn’t about what I
thought it was. I thought it was about fighting, and shooting cops, and stuff like
that, and it wasn’t about that. It was about making life better for the people who
didn’t have that, people who weren’t born with healthcare from their parents,
people who had to worry about where their next meal was gonna come from,
[00:53:00] people whose houses were deteriorating, who lived in conditions
where asbestos was everywhere. I remember we got taken out of our school my
eighth grade. All the kids basically got evacuated out of my school for two
months because they had to clean out the asbestos, and that was in the eighth
grade, so I’m like, ”Damn, how many years of asbestos have I been breathing
in?” It was just a little too late, and I think, once I realized that there were people
that were fighting for our people at one point, I felt abandoned. I felt like my
generation got abandoned, and we didn’t have anybody fightin’ for us, and we
were left to fight against each other ’cause we didn’t see that there was a real
enemy, and, still, we don’t really know who that real enemy is, but [00:54:00] it
just doesn’t make sense that we’re subjected to the conditions of living that we’re
subjected to. And I think a lot of my life was just blind fury. I didn’t know why I
was fighting. I didn’t know what I was fighting for, but I knew I had to fight
because I felt like a sucker if I didn’t. It was blind fury all the way until I got to

31

�college, and then I kind of just gave up. It was too late at that point. I wasn’t
even in my community anymore. I was living in the suburbs, you know. It was
too late already.
JJ:

Now, your sister Mildred and -- you said Jamal?

WR:

It was Mildred, Steve, Jamal, yeah.

JJ:

So, they were already together at Universes.

WR:

Yeah. Yeah.

JJ:

Were they already in theatre?

WR:

Yes. They were already doin’ it.

JJ:

So, did they shape your decision also, or --?

WR:

[00:55:00] No. No. That’s not why I -- not at all. Not at all. I think I was acting
up since I was a little kid. You know, I did church plays here and there, but that
was --

JJ:

Does it run in your family, or were you the first generation?

WR:

I don’t know. I mean, no. Nobody in my family was theatre. Mildred wasn’t in
theatre. She was a lit major, a literature major.

JJ:

[Literature, okay?].

WR:

My mother sang to us.

JJ:

[She sang professionally?]?

WR:

But she -- no, she didn’t sing professionally. She was a home attendant. She
didn’t have dreams of grandeur. My father was a janitor.

JJ:

You guys started theatre at the same time, [basically?]?

WR:

No. Mildred went to Bard in 1988, and she didn’t start doin’ theatre --

32

�JJ:

Bard is a --

WR:

Bard College. Bard, Annandale, New York. Dutchess County. [00:56:00] And
she didn’t start doing theatre until she got there, and then Steve -- I don’t know. I
don’t know when he started. I think he started there, but I was a poet since I was
in junior high school. I was a rapper. You know, that was my thing. I loved
rapping. I loved telling stories for my neighborhood in the form of rap, and that
was my performance. I used to go to the Nuyorican Poets Café, and go down
there, and battle. And then, when I got to college, I was like, ”Oh, I can use this.”
Oh, matter of fact, in college, my poetry professor was Bob Holman, who was
one of the founders of the Nuyorican Poets Café, and he was who made me
realize that I was a poet ’cause I didn’t realize I was a poet. I went to his class,
and I was like, ”Yeah, nah, I’m actually -- I’m a rapper. I don’t do poems.” And I
read him one of my raps, and he was like, ”Oh, yeah, that’s poetry.” And then,
he started gettin’ that into my head, that my rhymes were actually poems,
[00:57:00] and that’s when I learned how to write poetry. Basically just turn my
rhymes into poems.

JJ:

Okay. So, I guess we’ll kinda wrap it up [if you can?] explain some of the other
plays that Universes [has done?].

WR:

All right. So, I mean, Steve can tell you this better than I can.

JJ:

(inaudible).

WR:

But, yeah, there was -- yeah, I think I’ll let Steve talk to you about the history of
Universes.

JJ:

Okay.

33

�END OF AUDIO FILE

34

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Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. &#13;
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Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections.&#13;
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
World War II
Colin Williams

Total Time – (57:00)
Background
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He was born June 9, 1927 (00:11)
He decided to enter the war because he had four brothers that were in the service
(00:47)
o Everything during those days was very patriotic
He was 17 years old when he entered (01:10)
He chose the Navy because he did not want to sleep in the mud like the Army
soldiers did
There was an expectation that men of his age would join the military (01:42)
Different branches of the military would go to high schools and put on
presentations
There were 52 men from Michigan that enlisted

Enlistment/Basic Training – (02:25)
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He went to boot camp at Great Lakes, Illinois (02:53)
In boot camp, they were trained with high discipline
o They would get yelled at in their face
o They would be woken up at 2 A.M. (04:03)
There was nothing that was too difficult about the training
He immediately missed home and his girlfriend (04:31)
Before the war, he had never traveled out of the state (04:52)
His experiences at boot camp helped prepare him for what he would experience in
the war
There were classes where they had to learn spotting of different planes and ships
(06:35)
The trip from Great Lakes, Illinois to the west took nearly five days (08:07)
o He had never been out west before so he traveled with the windows open
on the train every night and day
When he first saw his ship in the west he said, “Oh mamma, what did I get myself
into?” (09:26)
He never had a feeling that it would be the last time he would see America
(09:52)

�Active Duty – Part I – 14 Voyages Across the Pacific (09:56)
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When he first went on, he was a deckhand until he worked in the chaplain's office
The ship was a transport ship – Nearly 11 million men were transported by that
type of ship (11:09)
o The ships also carried gasoline
They landed on Eniwetok Island
His first trip across the Pacific carried nearly 2,000 troops (13:31)
o The ship was not outfitted for that kind of trip
o There was a lot of rough weather on this trip
o He was called out on deck to look for other ships
o Many of the men got sick on board (14:29)
o The transported troops got very sick as well
The first 2,500 miles going to Hawaii was very rough weather
He made nearly 14 trips across the Pacific Ocean (16:14)
At one point he was on an Attack Transport Ship Amphibious Assault (16:35)
o There were many mining craft, 32 landing craft, etc. (16:46)
o His ship was named after Charles Carroll
o There were typically 600 sailors attached to this kind of ship
Some of his landfalls were on Hawaii, Marshall Islands, and Eniwetok Island
o After Eniwetok, they returned to the United States where they picked up
2,000 troops and headed to Ulithi Island (18:54)
o In Ulithi, they dispersed troops
After Ulithi, they returned to San Francisco, California where they picked up
more troops before heading to the Philippine Islands (19:25)
o They landed in Mindanao, Philippines (19:39)
After dropping off troops in Mindanao, they returned and picked up more troops
from the United States
o Coming back from the United States, they went into Leyte, Philippines
where they dispersed troops before returning home again (19:48)
Once he had picked up more troops in the United States, he went into Samar,
Philippines
His ship then traveled to the island of Mindoro and Luzon (20:20)
o They then traveled to the capital of the Philippines, Manila
 It was supposed to be the most bombed city in the world
o From Manila, they traveled to Corregidor Island (20:53)
 It was the last island to surrender and where MacArthur departed
from
They heard about the atomic bomb when they were in the Philippines, but they
did not believe it (22:15)
o They heard about it through newspaper articles
o They were told that the bomb could possibly end the war
o However, they were preparing themselves to invade Japan (23:19)
They expected 1 million casualties during an invasion of Japan

�•

•

•
•
•
•

Once the war was over, he traveled to Nagoya, Japan (24:09)
o When they landed, they threw some bread into the water for the birds, but
local people began jumping in the water to get it because food was so
scarce
After spending time in Japan, he then traveled to the United States before
returning to Tientsin (Tianjin), China (25:52)
o After leaving Tientsin, he traveled to Qingdao, China before returning
once again to the United States
 On the trip back to the United States, they transported some troops
to Guam (26:07)
He then went back to Sasebo, Japan where they dropped more troops off (26:50)
o Sasebo was a ship building area
o They left Sasebo for the United States to pick up more troops
On the trip back from the United States, they dropped the troops in the Philippines
While on this trip, he went to Shanghai, China where they traveled to the Yangtze
River (28:21)
After leaving China, his ship sailed for Manus (28:52)

Active Duty – Part II – Other Memories of the War – (28:59)
•
•
•

•
•

•
•
•

There were soldier initiations in islands that were south of the equator
o If you had never crossed the boundary, you would have to be initiated
His ship had been through six invasions before he had been on it (31:06)
o It started in Africa and went to Salerno, Italy, Southern France,
Normandy, Omaha Beach, and Okinawa
While on the USS Charles Carroll he had shifts of guard duty – 4 hours of watch
(34:22)
o They were watching for submarines, airplanes, and other ships
 There was an instance that they believed a submarine was nearby
 One time they had a stand-by for an air raid
They were always in a zigzag maneuver (36:33)
He believes that he was near the sinking of the USS Indianapolis (36:51)
o It was destroyed by a torpedo (38:28)
 There was a great deal of controversy around its sinking because
he was not zigzagging
• The Captain felt so terrible about what happened that he
had committed suicide (39:29)
o The ship was missing for five days before anyone knew it was missing
o The zigzag maneuver was to avoid torpedoes from submarines (40:53)
 By the time the submarine could get a location on the ship, it
would have changed before they could get hit
He was never very worried about his ship being torpedoed (41:35)
While on the ship, he was able to stay in touch with his family through mail
The food on the ship was not very good (42:47)

�•

•
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•
•

o The ship was not built for troops which made the kitchen facilities hard to
operate in
When transporting troops, the transported would be on the 3rd deck
o It was extremely hot on the 3rd deck (45:23)
o They had racks of beds that were stacked seven high – they were only 18
inches apart
His bed was only in a rack of five high
o He always liked the top (46:05)
There were generally 10 men sleeping in a 10x10 area
There was a lot of pressure on him as a transporter (47:19)
They were allowed to have soft water or salt water for showers
When he was in the Philippines, he was able to go ashore sometimes (48:33)
He believes that Manila was the most impressive city that he went to because it
was so bombed out
o He was very impressed with China as well (49:12)
He was in the Philippine Islands when he heard that the war was over – they were
picking up troops (50:17)
o The soldiers had been there for three years
 They were extremely silent – there was not very much celebration
o When they dropped the soldiers off, they were all very happy when they
saw the Golden Gate Bridge (51:41)
Soldiers did not know where they were going during the war (54:15)
o They never really guessed – they put it out of their mind and kept busy
(55:09)
His last time on the ship was an extraordinary feeling
o He was wondering what was going to happen with the ship and where it
was going (55:45)

�</text>
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                  <text>The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.</text>
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Veterans History Project Interview
Jane Williams
(22:58)

(00:20) Background Information
•
•
•
•

Born in Indiana in 1915
Jean was born during a flu epidemic
Her grandfather died from the epidemic
Her father was a farmer, but lost the farm in the depression and then went to work in
South Bend

(2:02) After High School
•
•
•

Jane attended at Purdue University in Indiana for one year
Afterwards she worked at Northern Indiana Public Service Coompany at a telephone
operator
Later she worked for an insurance company

(3:30) Marriage
•
•
•
•
•
•

She got married to Bob and then they moved to Louisiana
She met him at a gas company in Indiana; he was a meter reader
She got married in 1943 after they had been dating for 7 years
They were dating while he was in service and they did not get to see each other that often
Jane lived with her parents until she got married when she was 28 years old
Jane and Bob moved from Louisiana to Texas, Nevada, California, and then Jane moved
back to Louisiana while Bob was overseas

(5:40) Louisiana
• In Louisiana they shared a house with another couple that was very nice
• There lots of nice people in the state
• Jane had a baby after they had been married for one year
(6:20) Texas
• They stayed in the state for less than a year
• They lived near a grocery store and there were crickets all over the sidewalks

�•
•

Bob was not home very often and Jean cooked a lot to stay busy
Cooking was not that difficult even with the rationing of goods on the bases

(9:30) California
• They lived in a trailer with lots of chickens in the yard
• They had no heat except a kerosene stove that made everything smell bad
(11:50) While Bob Was Training
• Jane was worried about the progress of the war
• She was very busy after having her baby and was not working
• Her sister lived across the street and they many days having dinner together
• She heard from her husband quite often with his letters, but he never mentioned anything
regarding the war
• It was difficult for Jane to raise their baby by herself and her mother lived with her for a
while to help her
(14:30) Finances
• Jane and Bob received money from the Army even after he had came home from service,
but they had to send it all back
(16:30) An Overall Positive Experience
• Though it was difficult, Jane said that she benefited from the experience and that she met
many nice people while traveling
(17:15) The End of Bob’s Time in the Service
• It was very exciting when she got a letter from her husband saying that he was coming
home
(19:50) Pearl Harbor
• Jane did not have a good memory of the incident
• Her husband was already in the service at the time
(20:50) Roosevelt’s Death
• She does not remember the incident very well, but she is a Republican and did not care
for either of them
(21:50) Dropping of Bombs in Japan
• There was much celebration and lots of talk

�</text>
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Boring, Frank</text>
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(1:14:13)
(00:25) South Bend, Indiana
• Born May 22 1917
• Robert was an only child
• Graduated in 1935 from South Bend Central High School
• Worked for the Northern Indiana Public Service Company after graduation. He worked
as a customer service representative when he was drafted
(1:49) April 9 1941 Drafted into the Army
• Robert knew before being drafted that the United States needed to do something about
the war
• Had his physical in January in a building with volunteer doctors-passed the exam
• Took train to Columbus Ohio. They picked up guys on the way in other cities. Arrived
at 2 a.m. and assigned beds to sleep in for the night.
• Robert was on KP duty, day before Easter
• (5:00) Robert pulled off KP and told he was departing. Took train to Camp Shelby,
Mississippi
Camp Shelby, Mississippi
• The men were housed in tents
• Indiana national guard was there
• 700-800 people there total
• Told to wash mess kits
• Training-went to communication school for two months
• (7:20) Battery D of 491st field artillery
• Built up to maneuvers in Louisiana in 1941
• 155 Howitzers trained on
• Tornado hit their camp
• Given leave
• Everyone over 28 years old were released from service
• (9:30) Robert was promoted to Corporal
• He was Corporal of the Guard the day Pearl Harbor was hit-utter chaos
• Orders received for those with high IQ to sign up for officer candidate school
• Robert qualified-sent to school in early May to Fort Sill Oklahoma

�(10:30) Fort Sill Oklahoma-Officer training school
• Went thru class 23 of officer training school
• First large class they had go thru
• Every week 500 more arrived
• Passed OCS
• A week or two before leaving charts were posted on walls of vacancies in class 500
people down to 375 people-the rest washed out
• (12:50) Tac Officers were training the soldiers
• Told officer he wanted to join the 11th artillery division-felt there was opportunity for
promotions in the squad
• Went on leave
(14:00) Camp Polk Indiana August 1942
• Assigned to Battery D of the 471st field artillery (6 guys from the OCS)
• Robert was Executive Officer because he was in the longest
• A combat command was forming-they wanted a field officer to join-Robert was excepted
as the artillery officer for Combat Command A for the 11th Armored Division
• Robert was the company commander of the unit
• They company went to Texas then onto desert training then into California
• May 29 1943-Robert was married while still stationed at Camp Polk-She came with him
until California and went home to give birth to daughter-stayed home while Robert went
overseas
(18:50) Left for New York City
• Received orders to report to England
• Didn’t have equipment till getting to England
• Left in the middle of September 1943
• Left England in early December-half of division was on land half was still coming when
Bulge happened. Pocket of Germans kept them from getting there. Heavy fighting.
• Arrived at the Bulge on Christmas Day-they didn’t do much but did help out
(21:00) Attached to 3rd Army-12th Corps
• Robert saw Patton a few times-says it’s a lot like the movie of Patton-it was in a parade
• Robert was an assistant to G3 training camp
• Worked a G3 section while traveling-includes communication work picked up
information and get it to headquarters. Worked with liaison officers also.
• 4th armored division was massacred-sent combat team(infantry men, tank, engineers,
artillery) camp was bulging-all of the sudden it was gone-heard platoon was down to 5o
men by the end of the battle
• (27:29) Robert said the resistance was there but they were able to make 35 mile

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advancements everyday. His group moving a little faster than the infantry divisions.
Squad leader joined the G3’s because he couldn’t handle anymore fighting-he became the
driver for the G3’s. He said it wasn’t the combat but more the anticipation of going
around hills not knowing what was on the other side.
(29:40) Early May they were ordered to stop advancing.
6 star boundary-between U.S. troops and the Russian troops. They waited for the
Russian troops to arrive.
Russian soldiers were trying to get to the American Zone
(32:57) Robert saw civilian population everywhere in Germany-there were ruins
everywhere-When Robert flew over Cologne there was no roof tops that he could see left
Relationships with civilians were good; they mostly left the soldiers alone. Robert could
feel the mood change a little to resentment but not substantially.
His company relieved Camp Mauthausen, a concentration camp, where there were a stack
of bodies. Guards fled as they arrived. The people were so ill that they died anyways.
Afterwards they had strict orders that if they liberated a concentration camp not to feed
them because it would kill them. They needed to eat broth slowly.
Robert didn’t feel anger toward Germany people but the first time he seen an SS officer
he wanted to shoot him but didn’t
(36:20) On one occasion they sat on side roads watching prisoners come back-he fired a
round on commander’s orders and 12 SS soldiers came out of the woods
They were stationed in Austria when the war ended. Most of the men were scheduled to
go to Japan. Very few had enough points to go home. They were all split up into
different camps.
Robert went to the 4th armor division to head back home instead of to Japan
At Camp Lucky Strike, France before leaving-they packed up to get on the boat-boat was
damaged so they guys had to wait for a new boat to arrive
(39:00) Robert was at Camp Lucky Strike when war in Japan ended
Robert was promoted to Major before heading home

(40:00)Back to the states-Michigan
• Went back to the electric company he had worked for
• Left and worked for an appliance repair company in South Bend Indiana
• Went to Morley Brothers for 10 years
Wholesale appliance company-1952. Williams Kitchen and Bath
• Annual sales were $451,000
• (43:00) Became a distributor for Amana-this was before they were a popular brand-1956
• Son came to work for him for a year-is now running it
• Company is split up with his sons now
• Robert has been retired for 25 years now

�•

Grandson now works for him

(46:00) Service in the guard
• Took a reduction in rank till Majors job opened up
• Became S1 126th infantry regiment-stationed at headquarters 10-11 years
• During the Korean War-he was scheduled to go but Truman turned them down
• Became Executive officer of the 2nd battalion of the 126th infantry
• Became Battalion Commander then Combat Commander
• Became Assistant Commander of the 46th infantry division
• (48:20) General Simmons was the Commanding General
• The division broke up and Robert went to Brigade Commander
• Stayed in the guard for 26 years till they retired him in 1982
• Total service of 31 ½ years
• (51:00) Robert says it was rewarding receiving the General’s star. This was a strenuous
procedure. Robert’s friends told him that the FBI came to them asking about him.
Reflections on the War
• When Robert heard about the bombing in Japan he says they were all disgusted by it. At
that point their invasion money was taken away and eventually given back because of the
men were all upset about it. Things settled down as they knew there was nothing they
could do about it
• (55:10) One of the saddest moments was when his division commander was relieved
because they had come to a line awaiting another infantry division and they never showed
up. Commanders were upset that he didn’t go in and take the hill and so they relieved
him of his duty. This happened shortly after the Bulge.
•

(57:30) Robert feels that the reason they were able to push the Germans back was
because they simply over powered them. He said that there were graves of German
soldiers and all that died were between 16-18years old.

•

Robert and Jane have been married for 64 years. They have 3 children and many
grandchildren all of but one live in Grand Rapids. From the Time Robert was drafted till
he was off the military board, he put in a total of 60 years of service in the military.

•

(1:00:33) Robert talks about meeting the Russians after the war was over. Russians came
over on the 4th of July for a celebration and all that came could speak English. He says
they were very friendly people and they ate dinner that night and they left for home.
Robert seems like it was a good experience but they never saw them again.

•

Robert joined the National Guard because as he talked to a man who came into his

�appliance store that was in the National Guard, he was instructed he would get paid for
coming in one night a week. For Robert it was enough to pay his house payment at the
time.
•

(1:04:00) While Robert was Assistant Division Commander they went to Detroit in 1967
in charge of 3000 troops on the hot spots. This was during riots. They took firepower off
of the streets, which took pressure off. First time there was for 10 days, the second was
for only 2 days. They received riot training after this episode.

•

(1:10:15) Austrian military was equipped with horse drawn vehicles. Across the road
you could see dead horses just laying there, hundreds of them. When the U.S. came
across and shot at them, they couldn’t get the horses across fast enough. Many had
frozen there because of the temperatures being so cold.

•

Toward the end of the war, food was becoming scarce. The commander would trade
horses that they found for food from the farmers to keep everyone fed.

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Vietnam
Name of Interviewee: Roger Williams
Length of Interview: 00:27:10
Background:
 He spoke in his native language to the interviewer.
 What he said was that his name means “little fat pig.” His grandmother gave him that
name. He also has a spirit name.
 He feels very honored for being invited to participate in this project.
 He was born August 1940, in Holland, Michigan.
 He served in the United States Air Force. His highest rank was E4.
 He served two periods, from 1957-1961 at San Antonio.
 He served at a hospital there for some time.
 He got out in 1961 and got back in to serve in the Vietnam War in 1962 and would serve
until 1967.
 He did not go to Vietnam and was not in combat.
 He enlisted in Kalamazoo, Michigan.
 He was raised in Holland until he was 12 years old. Although he has a Native American
heritage, he is mostly Dutch. He would have loved to take part in the Tulip Time parade,
but that never happened.
 He went to high school in Muskegon but did not finish. He would finish high school
while he was in the service and started college while he was in the service also.
 He made a great number of friends while he was in the service. He actually was able to
reach out to a friend who he went to medical school with in Montgomery. His daughter
would find him over Facebook. He doesn’t know what will happen but he hopes to
reconnect with him.
 He had quit high school and things were not going so well for him. He had great work
ethic, but the jobs were not that good.
 At 17 he was starting to get in trouble.
 When he was still in school, he went into his school’s counselor’s office, and asked about
what he should do. The man told him that if he graduated with a B average, he would
help him get into the US Naval Academy.
 As a poor kid with little support, it didn’t occur to him that it was a wonderful offer. So
when he was 17, he started to think about it some more, and thought the military was a
good place for him to be.
 So he joined the Air Force.
Training (6:54)
 When he first went into the Air Force they had a 12 weeks basic training program.
 He was a pretty unrestricted man, so basic training was very good for him. It gave him
discipline, it gave him boundaries; it gave him a better way of life.
 Following basic training, he went to a medical prep school for about 8 weeks.

�




In this he learn the basics of how the hospital is run, the history of medicine, etc.
Following that he went to a school in Montgomery, Alabama. He thought about being a
field medic, but they wanted him to be an Administrative Medic.
So when he got to San Antonio, he was basically helping to run the hospital.
Adapting to military life was a big change for his life. It was a little difficult and it kind
of stressed him out. He wasn’t a very big guy, but he did what he had to change.

Active Duty (9:30)
 During the first part of his career, most of his time was served at the hospital, in San
Antonio.
 He did a lot of administrative work, such as choosing which patients to admit. He was
responsible for sending telegrams when someone died.
 There were responsibilities for taking inventory of who came in and who died in what
way.
 One of the most traumatic experiences he had was when he had to do an inventory on
dead person’s personal effects, which was zero. The guy had crashed a plane and his
body was in a lot of different pieces in the rubble and dirt.
 Opening the bag up and seeing the dirt, he thought they were playing a joke on him at
first, but it was quite a shocker for him when he found out a body was actually in there.
 Another one was a Mexican boy’s body came in and he had to do inventory on him.
When he pulled the sheet back, the boy looked exactly like him, with his head caved in.
And that was a shocker.
 The second part of his service was spent in Miami. It was party city for him.
 The Cuban Crisis came along and he was at the Homestead air base.
 He had first-hand experience with his time during this time.
 Following the Cuban Crisis, John Kennedy came to the base and awarded them a special
award.
 He would then go to Germany, which was also a lot of fun. There was still a lot of work
to be done.
 While there, he was the administrator.
 He would then move to France, just outside of Paris. He was able to Paris in his off time
and go to the Paris Opera House. He got to see a lot of artistic things he got to see
including the Mona Lisa and Cleopatra’s Needle.
 He would also go to museums there as well. (15:20)
 While he was there, the war was still going on. He would be there prepping guys for war
and taking care of those who came back from war.
 He would read the newspapers and read about how so many of those guys were dying and
it bothered him tremendously.
 The people of the USA were starting to speak out against the war.
 It was his time to get out and he did.
 He feels bad because the job was not getting done and it was the soldiers who were
paying the price.
Post Duty and other stories (18:05)

�








It is always difficult when a friend dies. When he was in France, a buddy of his was
driving to Paris one night and had a seizure and he and the passenger died. It was a pretty
bad time for him because he was on duty when they brought the bodies in.
They came in and he didn’t know about the accident yet. He walked in and saw their
bodies lying on the slab and that’s when he found out.
He was not mistreated when he came home from the service, while serving in Vietnam.
His family was there for him when he came home and they were very supportive. He has
a way in his community where they truly honor veterans.
The guys who came home from Vietnam were treated badly. It was horrible and quite
real.
One of the things that the community doesn’t know is that natives have a higher rate of
enlistees than the whole. 1 of 4 compared to 1 of 10
Part of that is no so much that we are loyal, but they have a real sense of connection to
the earth around them. Veterans are represented in a different way because of the culture.
In order to honor the customs of his community, he gives the interviewer some items
from his culture, in exchange for letting him be a part of this project.
He continues to serve his community; to show it he collects buttons, awards and other
patches.

�</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Tommy Williams
World War II
(11:53)
Background Information (00:11)




Born August 26th 1920 (00:12)
At the age of 18 before he joined the Army, Tommy worked in the field. (1:02)
He was raised in Mississippi. (1:25)

Military Service (1:49)











His basic training included emphasis on physical activity as well as a lot of peeling potatoes.
(2:00)
Tommy was in Germany when the war ended in 1945. He does not recall what town. (2:40)
Tommy served in combat in Italy and Germany during his service. (2:53)
He served as a loader. (Possibly for artillery or another large gun). (3:28)
The gun would fire at tanks or men. (4:24)
Tommy spent approx. 2 years on the front lines (Approx. 1943-1945). (4:44)
There were some casualties in his unit but not a drastic amount. (4:50)
When not on the front line, the men commonly spent their time doing pickup sports games.
(5:30)
Tommy frequently wrote home to stay in touch with his family. (5:55)
He was not taught any new skills through his service. (6:36)

End of Service (6:53)




He exited the military in October of 1946. (7:16)
After the war ended, Tommy returned to Mississippi where he spent much of his time resting.
(7:29)
He moved to Michigan in 1951 (7:48)

Effects of Service (8:17)






Tommy made some close friends while in the military. He is no longer in touch with any of them.
(8:17)
He worked picking cotton after he returned home from the war. (9:00)
His military experience exposed him to a lot of different people and cultures. (9:45)
Tommy is a member of the American Legion. (10:00)
Tommy is in the Legion for the same reason he was in the service, he likes to help people.
(10:58)

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans' History Project
Bill Williams
Vietnam War
2 hours 11 minutes 40 seconds
(00:00:15) Early Life Pt. 1
-Born in Muscatine, Iowa
-Grew up on a farm near Wapello, Iowa
-Born on December 20, 1941
-Went to high school in Wapello
-Played football
-Took a road trip one summer with some friends to Colorado
-Convinced him to attend college in Colorado
(00:01:24) Colorado State University &amp; Army Reserve Officers' Training Corps Pt.
1
-Attended Colorado State University
-Always wanted to be in the Army so he joined the Army Reserve Officers' Training
Corps
-Mandatory two years of service
-Enjoyed being in the ROTC
-Got into the Advanced ROTC in his junior year
-Went to Fort Riley, Kansas for summer training
-Did well there
-Became the cadet regimental commander for half of his junior year
-Wanted to join the Army because of memories of World War Two and the Korean War
-Sounded enjoyable
-Wanted to travel and experience different things
(00:03:15) Early Life Pt. 2
-Family were farmers
-Grew up near the Iowa and Mississippi Rivers near Burlington, Iowa
(00:04:04) Colorado State University &amp; Army Reserve Officers' Training Corps Pt.
2
-Graduated from college in 1963
-ROTC instructors were good
-Combat veterans from WWII and the Korean War
-One sergeant fought in the Pacific Theatre during WWII
-Another sergeant fought at Pointe du Hoc on D-Day then in Korea
-Taught Bill common sense things about being a good soldier
-Instructed the cadets how to kill
-Taught Bill about an officer's honor and how to manage well
-Went to Fort Riley, Kansas for summer training
-Learned about different leadership positions, from squad leader to company
commander
-Enjoyed training at Fort Riley

�-Lived in barracks
-Enjoyed being the cadet regimental commander, but felt he didn't do well with it
-Received his commission as a 2nd lieutenant when he graduated from college
(00:07:15) Overview of Events at Fort Benning
-Upon graduating from college he went to Fort Benning, Georgia
-Received Infantry Officer Basic Training
-Went to Jump School (learning how to be a paratrooper)
-From Fort Benning he was deployed to South Korea
(00:07:47) Infantry Officer Basic Training
-Taught how to call in artillery and mortar strikes
-Learned how to lead troops
-Learned about how to maintain vehicles
-Taught by an old warrant officer
-Trained solely at Fort Benning, Georgia
-Good variation of terrain
-Trained during the summer of 1963
(00:10:08) Jump School
-Stayed at Fort Benning for Jump School for three weeks
-Had to be in good shape
-Trained with 600 other soldiers
-First week of training was ground work
-Learning how to safely land
-Second week was tower training
-Jumping from a 34 foot tower and riding down on a wire
-Part of that second week was learning how to properly exit the plane
-Had to run everywhere
-Punished with push-ups
-Tower had a mock aircraft fuselage so trainees could learn how to jump out of a plane
-Fell six to ten feet then slid down the wire
-Meant to mimic the feeling of the chute opening on a real jump
-Third week of training he got to parachute out of an actual plane
-Flew over to Fryar Field in Alabama
-On his first jump he landed on his butt
-Got yelled at over that
-Supposed to run off the field
-Managed to walk off the field without getting yelled at
-Exhilarating experience
(00:16:02) Deployment to South Korea
-Received orders for South Korea
-Allowed to go home on leave before going to South Korea
-Visited his brother who was stationed at Fort Knox, Kentucky
-En route learned that President Kennedy had been assassinated
-Went home to Iowa for 30 days of leave
-Shipped out to South Korea in December 1963
-Flew out of Travis Air Force Base, California
(00:17:06) Stationed in South Korea

�-Landed at Kimpo Air Base near Seoul, South Korea
-Assigned to the 7th Infantry Division
-Used Military Pay Certificates (MPC) instead of dollars
-Went to the Officers' Club the first night in South Korea
-His unit was stationed south of the 1st Cavalry Division which was on the demilitarized
zone
-Had to do a 40 mile hike in the winter
-Led by two incompetent captains that got them lost
-Ran out of water and had to eat dirty snow
-He was platoon leader for 1st Platoon
-Platoon sergeant was a Korean War veteran
-Murdered by another GI when said GI tried to kill some military police
-Platoon sergeant went to confront the GI and was shot
-GI was shot and killed by a finance unit's guard
-Bill was acting company commander at the time
-Transferred to a mortar platoon to be its leader
-The soldiers he led were good men, but not well-educated
-Some couldn't even write letters properly
-They were good men though
-Got to see Seoul on one weekend
-Saw a lot of the Korean countryside
-Went on a 20 mile road march in the winter
-Saw women washing their clothes in a freezing river
-South Koreans were hard working people
-Had problems with thieves, and they were smart thieves
-Farmers were still as poor as they had been when Korea was a Japanese colony
-Seoul was modernizing, but there were still problems
-Air control tower at Kimpo still had bullet holes in it
-Had Korean Augmentation To the United States Army (KATUSA) soldiers attached to
his unit
-South Korean soldiers that were attached to the U.S. Army
-Had a South Korean sergeant, corporal, and private attached to his unit
-Sergeant gave orders to the corporal who then gave orders to the private
-Higher ranking soldiers beat lower ranking soldiers
-Commonplace and for mistakes and/or disobedience
-Left South Korea after a year and flew back into Travis Air Force Base
-Came home in November or December 1964
(00:27:56) Special Forces Training
-Volunteered for the Special Forces while he was in Korea
-Tonkin Gulf Incident happened while he was in Korea
-Applied for transfer to Vietnam
-Approved for Special Forces training before he was transferred though
-Sent to Fort Bragg, North Carolina for Special Forces Training
-It was interesting, but difficult
-Learned about explosives and guerrilla tactics
-First phase and it lasted three months

�-Learned how to fight guerrilla soldiers
-Second phase and it also lasted three months
-Trained by combat veterans from WWII and the Korean War
-Received Vietnamese language training from a sergeant that had served in WWII
-He had been part of the elite Devil's Brigade
-Moved around Fort Bragg for training
-Did training exercises and airborne jumps at night
-Training was geared toward fighting in Vietnam
-Had to do a swimming test after being given a large meal of soup and meatloaf
-Had to do three laps around a large pool
-Some men completed training early and got deployed to Vietnam
-Led to them getting killed in action
-Completed Special Forces Training in late 1965, or early 1966
(00:32:38) First Tour in Vietnam - Duties of the Special Forces
-Received leave upon completing Special Forces Training then deployed to Vietnam
-Flew out of Travis Air Force Base
-The function of the Green Berets was to set up outposts in enemy territory
-Similar to forts in the American West during the Indian Wars
-Trained indigenous Vietnamese to be anti-communist soldiers
-Conducted patrols around the outpost
-Keeping enemy forces out of the area of operations
(00:34:19) First Tour in Vietnam - First Outpost
-The first outpost he was stationed at was near Nha Trang and was the executive officer
-Very little enemy activity
-In May 1966 they discovered an enemy camp
-All but one of the Viet Cong soldiers retreated, the last man stood and fought
-A Montagnard soldier shot the Viet Cong soldier
-Montagnards: Indigenous people in Vietnam who were U.S. allies
-Took home a communist flag as a souvenir
-Dealt primarily with Viet Cong soldiers
-The first dead Viet Cong soldier he saw was an 18 year old girl
-Stayed at the first outpost until he was promoted to captain
(00:36:41) First Tour in Vietnam - Second Outpost
-Sent to Pleiku to be the funds officer at the Green Beret outpost there
-Stationed there for four months
-Responsible for $1 million
-Had to go to Saigon to get the money and bring it back to Pleiku once a month
-Had to find travel on his own for a while
-On one night he got stuck in Laos
-Used the money to pay the indigenous soldiers
-Some areas were quiet in terms of enemy activity while others were more active
-Remembers escorting a stripper from the USO to Plei Me
-Area was under attack most of the time, but it was never overrun
-At the time it felt like the United States was winning
-Knew there were problems with American politics
-Had issues with the Army of the Republic of Vietnam (South Vietnamese

�soldiers)
-Many were corrupt, but others were good fighters
(00:42:27) Returning to the United States
-Flew back to the United States
-People were indifferent or outright rude to Vietnam veterans
-That was of course unless you were wearing a Green Beret
-Returned to the U.S. in early 1967
-Spent leave home in Iowa
-People in Iowa were more friendly toward him than other civilians
(00:43:29) Stationed at Fort Benning Pt. 1
-Assigned to Fort Benning to be an Infantry Instructor at the Infantry School
-Had to do a three week course to learn how to be an Infantry Instructor
-Went to class eight hours a day
-More difficult than college
-Taught a small arms course
-Taught soldiers how to "snap shoot"
-How to unconsciously and accurately shoot to kill
(00:44:54) Weapons in Vietnam
-Used the M16 assault rifle in Vietnam and later a carbine variant of the M16
-Had a "four deuce" (M2 4.2 inch mortar) on one of the outposts in Vietnam
-The Viet Cong had mortars, but weren't very accurate
-Usually fired off rounds quickly then fled which meant his unit never took
casualties
(00:46:55) Stationed at Fort Benning Pt. 2
-He was stationed at Fort Benning for 18 months
-Went to Infantry Officer Advanced Course
-Learned about logistics and strategy for larger units like companies and
battalions
-It was useful training
(00:49:08) Redeployment to Vietnam
-Had to return to Vietnam for a second tour in Vietnam
-Men that had gone to West Point only had to do one tour in Vietnam
-Knew he would be assigned to the 101st Airborne Division
-Unit had a good reputation and he was happy to be assigned to the 101st
(00:50:47) Arrival in Vietnam
-Returned to Vietnam in November or December 1969
-Knew that he would be stationed in I Corps near the demilitarized zone
-Landed at Tan Son Nhut near Saigon
-From there flew up to Cam Ranh Bay and right into a sandstorm
-Huts were filled with sand
-From Cam Ranh Bay flew to a shoddy camp in I Corps
-Taken by truck to the Screaming Eagle Replacement Training School
-Went on an introdcutory patrol and got ambushed
-Called in helicopter gunships
-Was a company commander during his time at SERTS
(00:55:13) 3rd Brigade Headquarters

�-He was sent to the 3rd Brigade Headquarters
-Requested an assignment to a rifle company
-There were no open slots for a company commander though
-Most battalions had too many captains anyway
-Requested to stay at 3rd Brigade Headquarters until a slot opened
-Assigned to be the assistant-S3 officer (operations and planning)
-S-3 officer was a good officer to work for
-Colonel Bradley was the brigade commander
-He was a WWII veteran and a West Point graduate
-Good man to serve under
-Responsible for getting Bill an assignment as a rifle company commander
-Worked as the assistant-S3 officer for four months
-There was some minor, local fighting during his time at 3rd Brigade Headquarters
(00:59:35) Assignment to Bravo Company
-Assigned to a rifle company in late March 1970
-Bravo Company 2nd Battalion 506th Infantry Regiment 101st Airborne Division
-Had to wait four or five days to get out to the field due to bad weather
(01:01:15) Establishing Firebase Ripcord
-Operation Texas Star began on March 12, 1970
-Attempt to rebuild the abandoned Firebase Ripcord
-Bravo Company got eight replacements
-On April 1, 1970 Bravo Company air assaulted onto the hill that Ripcord would be built
on
-There were 100 men in his company plus support personnel
-Took mortar fire as soon as they landed
-Colonel Lucas and Major Koenigsbauer began directing artillery fire against the enemy
mortars
-Started to take casualties
-One of his platoon lieutenants was killed in action by a mortar
-Seven or eight men were killed and about 20 men were wounded
-Half of the Pathfinders were able to land
-Other half could not land due to heavy enemy fire
-At dusk they received orders to withdraw to a nearby hill Alpha Company was on
-Helicopters tried to come in to collect the dead, but couldn't land
-They buried the dead at Ripcord instead so they could be recovered later
-Walked down the side of the hill Ripcord was on
-Contacted A Company and told them that B Company was approaching their position
-Safely got to A Company without running into enemy soldiers
-They were supposed to be airlifted out of the field the next day
-Heavy fog rolled in which made it impossible for helicopters to come in
-Moved down to Delta Company's position
-Had trouble contacting D Company
-B Company was running out of food and ammunition
-D Company commander was a good man
-Made sure that B Company was able to rest
-Separated from D Company the next day

�-They ran out food because they thought that they were going to reestablish Firebase
Ripcord
-Walked around in the jungle for a while before getting resupplied
(01:15:27) Patrols near Firebase Ripcord
-After trying to reestablish Firebase Ripcord they were airlifted back to the rear
-Stayed in the rear for a short time
-Command didn't want the soldiers in the rear too long because it led to
problems
-Returned to the field in mid-April 1970 and conducted patrols aroud Firebase Ripcord
-Didn't make a lot of contact with North Vietnamese troops from April-June
-Discovered a lot of freshly built bunkers and huts
-Usually empty, but had been occupied
-Called in artillery to destroy the fortifications
-He made sure that the men in his company shaved while in the field
-Maintaining discipline, but also to prevent infection
-Normally the platoons operated separately
-Stayed with a platoon for a few days then rotated to another one
-Platoons went on patrols around the company command post to secure the area
-Company command post was whatever platoon he was with
-Never got ambushed
-Some of his platoons made contact with North Vietnamese troops closer to Firebase
Ripcord
-One of his platoons encountered an NVA platoon heading toward Ripcord
(01:22:15) Fighting on Hill 805
-Moved to Hill 805 in early July 1970
-Air assaulted to a landing zone near Hill 805
-Watched as Cobra gunships bombarded the NVA on top of Hill 805
-He was on one of the first helicopters into the landing zone
-The landing zone was lower than Hill 805 which meant the enemy had the high ground
-Someone finally neutralized the NVA soldier firing down on the landing zone
-His company took two casualties
-One man was shot in the arm and another was shot in the back
-He moved to the far side of the landing zone until another a platoon landed
-One platoon went up Hill 805 and the other platoon stayed at the landing zone
-That night the landing zone took enemy fire
-NVA were trying to figure out U.S. troop strength at Hill 805
-Fortunately, they couldn't figure out where the U.S. troops were
-The night after that Charlie Company was wiped out on Hill 902
-C Company's commander made two critical errors, one of which was his
fault:
-Stayed on Hill 902 two nights in a row (ordered to, not his
decision)
-He set up a hammock on top of the hill in plain sight (his fault)
-C Company was overrun and had to wipe out the attacking NVA
-B Company was ordered to withdraw from Hill 805 to be replaced by C Company
-While waiting to get airlifted off Hill 805 he set up his radio

�-Lightning struck the tree next to him which traveled down his radio
antenna
-Shock threw him fifteen feet down the hill
(01:33:37) Stationed at Firebase Ripcord
-Received orders to pull back to Firebase Ripcord
-Once they landed he went to see the firebase surgeon, Dr. Harris
-Learned that one of his eardrums had been blown out
-B Company took over security at Firebase Ripcord
-Bill was made the S3 officer to replace Major Koenigsbauer
-Koenigsbauer was sent to division headquarters
-Due to Army protocol officers had to be rotated to different positions after six
months
-Led to experienced officers getting replaced with inexperienced officers
-Meant that Bill would be in the tactical operations center with Colonel Lucas
-B Company took up defensive positions in bunkers on the perimeter of Ripcord
-Every night at 5 PM they had staff meetings in the TOC and always took enemy artillery
fire
(01:38:49) Siege of Firebase Ripcord
-Over the course of July the fighting around Ripcord got worse and turned into a siege
-More artillery fire and enemy soldiers trying to get through the wire and mines
-A Chinook resupply helicopter came in on July 18, took enemy fire, and crashed
-The fuel spilled out, caught fire, and caused the ammunition dump to explode
-Took seven or eight hours for all of the ammunition to cook off
-One soldier panicked and ran down the hill through the wire defenses
-Mistaken for being an NVA soldier and got shot at
-Fortunately, he wasn't killed or wounded
(01:43:29) Getting Wounded
-At another staff meeting Dr. Harris said there was a group of GIs standing around the
TOC
-Bill went outside and told them to get away from the TOC
-Would attract attention from the NVA mortars near the firebase
-An artillery shell came in and exploded near Bill
-It threw him down the stairs into the TOC and he sustained severe
wounds
-Crushed skull, broken jaw, severed jugular vein, and shrapnel
wounds
-Dr. Harris stopped the bleeding
-Wounded before Firebase Ripcord fell on July 23, 1970
(01:46:59) Recovery Overseas
-He was evacuated to Charlie Med (hospital) in Khe Sanh
-Unconscious for five days
-Woke up to find tubes running out of his body and a Red Cross nurse standing
over him
-Able to dictate a letter home to her
-Moved to Camp Drake, Japan
-Spent three weeks there

�-Kept in a large warehouse-type building that was used as the hospital
-Severely wounded on one side, minor cases on the other, latrines in the
middle
-Had nightmares every night because he couldn't find his rifle
-Finally convinced himself that he was no longer in danger
-Moved to the convalescent ward
-Received a lot of letters from family and friends from home
-Flown to the Philippines and told get food at the Officers' Club
(01:53:56) Recovery in the United States
-Flown to Travis Air Force Base, California and sent to a hospital
-Told he had a free phone call home
-Red Cross nurse called home for him because his jaw was wired shut
-Transferred to Letterman Army Medical Center in San Francisco
-Could see Alcatraz Island from the hospital
-Could see the Native Americans who had occupied the island
-Escaped the hospital during the day to go into San Francisco
-Watched the cleanup operations after two oil tankers collided in the bay
-Drank wine with other patients at night
-On Thursdays they had to be examined by oral surgeons
-Hated it
-Spent eight and a half months in the hospital
-Given leave twice
-Got married in Akron, Alabama on one leave
-Married 45 years as of February 2016
-Met his wife while he was at Fort Benning
-Had to eat liquid foods
-Worst ones were liquid fish and liquid beets
-Experienced an earthquake
(02:01:15) End of Service
-After he recovered he was sent to Fort Carson, Colorado
-Made the assistant S3 officer for the brigade there
-Able to get up late and leave work early
-Had a lot of men from Vietnam who only had three months of service left
-Came up with a plan to walk from New Mexico to Wyoming along the Continental
Divide
-Something to occupy the soldiers that had time left, but nothing to do
-Received approval for the plan and 24 men volunteered to go on the hike
-Trained by doing hikes on Pikes Peak
-Hiked from the New Mexico state line to the Wyoming border
-Had supply points along the way
-Took 50 days
-Started with 24 men and only three had to drop out for various reasons
-Only took six pictures
-Preoccupied with the mules they brought with them
-Issued a ration and a half a day because they were burning so many
calories

�-Got a week off after the hike
-Able to spend time with his wife and baby son
(02:07:03) Life after the Army
-Developed psychomotor-epilepsy from his head wound
-Given a medical retirement by the Army
-Developed Bell's palsy, thiroiditis, and a blood disease after he left the Army
-Given Social Security due to unemployability
-Unable to be around people for long periods of time
-Lives in the mountains of Colorado
-Wife is understanding
-Used to raise horses and take care of his children
-Wife worked at the Post Office
-Moved to some property in Lake George, Colorado and built a house and a barn
(02:10:40) Reflections on Service
-Hard to leave the Army and still misses the brotherhood he felt in the Army
-The best and worst parts of his service happened while he was in Vietnam
-Made friends, but also lost friends too

�</text>
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Boring, Frank</text>
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                  <text>&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455"&gt;Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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                <text>Bill Williams was born in Muscatine, Iowa on December 20, 1941. He attended Colorado State University and was part of the Army ROTC, graduating and receiving his commission in 1963. He went to Fort Benning, Georgia for Infantry Officer Basic Training and Jump School (paratrooper training). He spent a year stationed in South Korea serving as a platoon leader in the 7th Infantry Division. After South Korea he returned to the United States and received Special Forces Training at Fort Bragg, North Carolina and in early 1966 he was deployed to Vietnam. He served at a Green Beret outpost in Nha Trang and at another outpost in Pleiku until early 1967. He took the Infantry Officer Advanced Course and was a small arms instructor at Fort Benning, Georgia for eighteen months. He was redeployed to Vietnam in December 1969 and was assigned to the 101st Airborne Division. He served as the assistant S3 officer at 3rd Brigade Headquarters for four months until he was assigned to be the company commander of Bravo Company 2nd Battalion 506th Infantry Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division. He carried out patrols around Firebase Ripcord in spring 1970 and fought at Hill 805 until B Company moved to Firebase Ripcord in July 1970 and experienced the siege of Ripcord. Shortly before the fall of Ripcord he was severely wounded and was medically evacuated. He received treatment in Vietnam, Japan, and California before completing his service at Fort Carson, Colorado.</text>
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                <text>&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455"&gt;Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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