1056 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b59fcb6a4943a971d35bcb530b6fa5cb.mp4 6200240748770ef8d622d42df91fdef6 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/be48a1c44270e9dad322de80fb89d599.pdf 9f3a343ddd27dd9d68d65c09f483f05d PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW JEFFREY WILCOX Born: Nyack, New York Resides: Saugatuck, Michigan Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, April 1, 2013 Interviewer: Mr. Wilcox, can you start by giving us a little bit of background about yourself, where and when were you born? I was born August the 23rd 1946 in Nyack, New York. Interviewer: What did your family do? My father was into heavy industry and in those days you were moved at will, and we rather quickly ended up in Gary, Indiana with the U.S. Steel Company. Interviewer: How old were you when you moved out there? I turned seven that summer, so I went from there through high school in Gary. Interviewer: Did you go to public school, or Catholic? Public schools Interviewer: What were public schools in Gary, Indiana like in the 1950’s? Ozzie and Harriett or Leave it to Beaver would be the way to categorize the city at the time. Prosperity was high, the mills were producing more than any place on the planet, my wife says, “We don‟t trust air we can‟t see”, and you could see the air real clearly in those years. 1:09 It was an interesting place to grow up. Interviewer: I remember being a kid and driving past Gary coming out of Chicago, and at seven years old asking my mother, “Mom, where’s Gary?” She said, “See that big black cloud over there? That’s Gary”. 1 �A red cloud usually Interviewer: At that distance, at the time, you remember that, but on the whole that would be a period when wages were good, so you have a pretty good middle class existence even at the worker level. Was your father in management? Yes, sort of mid to low level management and he was a superintendent in yard and transportation, moving stuff in and out of the mills. Everybody either worked in the mill or prospered from the people who worked in the mill, so it was the life blood. Our school was a WPA project and it was really rather gorgeous, I now know. 2:01 It had these extraordinary murals in it of American industry, which have now, I understand, been obliterated by subsequent remodeling of the school. We were “baby boomers”, there was an elementary school built for us, so we were the first kids into an elementary school. Gary, actually, has a history of innovation in education and I now know that in the midfifties for a woman to get a hold of a school, as the principal and go through the school system and pick the teachers that she wanted made for a—it was really a very exciting environment in elementary school. We loved it. Interviewer: Then the—let’s see, when did you finish high school? 1964, June of 1964 Interviewer: Now, you went straight into West Point. July 1 Interviewer: Tell me, what made you decide to go there in the first place? That‟s a good question. I always was attracted to the rigor, the notion of the rigor. 3:07 I always—growing up in the wake of WWII saw military service as the just and right thing and it just had a hold on me from about the sixth grade, and I started working on it. 2 �Back then, the only was a sort of political process. You had to see how many letters you could stack up on the congressman‟s desk and I didn‟t have a lot of connections, so basically it was trying to meet people, go on a sales call, and ask them to write a letter on your behalf. I ended up lined up in third place for a spot. The number two guy didn‟t do quite well enough on the College Board, so I was moved to second. The number one guy was—he was really a talented, rounded guy, and I was told, when I got my letter two weeks before I was to report, that something had been determined about an injury to his elbow. 4:10 I later learned I had a much worse injury to my knee than had ever happened to his elbow, so I have this distinction of lying my way into the army in the 1960‟s. Interviewer: There were not that many of you doing that at that point. So, who knew, but the deal was—my brother had to drop out of college because of money and he was working at the local windshield wiper factory, and he was a good kid. They said that when I graduated from high school I could have his job, so he could go back to college. So, I was going to be a life guard that summer and he was going to go back to college and I was going to go into the windshield wiper factory and I was saved, just totally saved. Interviewer: Now, did you actually have to have a letter from a congressman, ultimately, was that still part of the process? 5:05 You had to be appointed, and I received a telegram saying that I was the second alternate to a position, and then I gave up. Interviewer: Who did you have support from? What kind of people did you go visit to do this? 3 �My neighbor was the private secretary to the mayor. I called on people who were in business who were graduates and I don‟t recall how I learned who they were, and then my high school coaches and my minister and people like that wrote things on my behalf. To some extent it was, “how high is your stack” and to some extent it was who wrote it, so I did well enough to get on the list anyway. Interviewer: so, when do you actually arrive in West Point? July 1, 1964 Interviewer: What was your first impression of the place when you got there? 6:01 It pretty well comported with my image, and we were all, of course,--you take accomplished kids and it‟s all about, in minutes, convincing them that they have no right to be there and that they are the worst person in the world, and whatever made me think I had the ability to do this, and sort of even people out and rebuild them the way the institution wants. Interviewer: How do they go about doing that, a lot of sergeants yelling at you? Yeah, the people who are conducting this are the third and fourth year guys, so it starts very rudely with, at least in that era, with reporting to a guy in a red sash who‟s standing out in the middle of this open space and you walk over to him and kind of want to say, “Hi”, and he starts disciplining you right there. 7:05 He said, “Drop that bag”, so I put the bag down and he said, “I didn‟t tell you to put it down, I told you to drop the bag, so pick it up”, so you pick it up, and pick it up, and start right then with not questioning, just doing exactly what I tell you. I broke a bottle of cologne in my bag doing that. Later, when I was one of those guys, I remember peeking out of a window just as the first of 4 �them were starting to come in that I, actually, welled up, I felt so badly for these guys, but we delivered anyway. Interviewer: What did the first year curriculum consist of? What were you doing or how were you spending your time? Well, we carried an academic load of around twenty to twenty-two hours in today‟s standard, and then there was reveille, marching to breakfast, going to class, marching to lunch, going to class, parades, and intermurals are a big part of West Point. 8:09 Everyone‟s is always involved with sports in a wide range of them, not just football, basketball and baseball, but squash and thing like that to teach you these games. PE in the first year was a major challenge. There was wrestling, boxing, survival swimming and gymnastics, and it was all rigorous stuff. Interviewer: How did you hold up through all that? I made it, and I had been trained as a life guard in high school, so I had a little bit of a leg up on the survival swimming thing, although mostly you‟re in a pool with boots and clothes on and it‟s just exhausting. So, then there‟s staying awake at night enough at night to study and the class rigor was rigorous, you know, every day, in mathematics especially, every day you recite at a blackboard, or standing in front of the instructor. 9:10 It was daunting, but it gets you to think on your feet, and speak on your feet, and that‟s really what the training was about, and in my day, the curriculum was general engineering, basically, applied mathematics. Interviewer: Were the instructors’ military, civilian, or both? Military, I never had a civilian instructor, but there are some now, I think. mostly grads who were back after graduate school. 5 They were �Interviewer: Now, during the course of that first year, do you get a chance to go home or get out of there, or did you have breaks? Yes, actually, ours was the first class that was permitted to go home at Christmas, and I really wish we had not, because it was horrible coming back, so that was the one break, and then in the spring break, where the upper classes take off for, basically, an extra-long weekend, and the fourth classmen, the first year people are left in charge of the place. 10:13 My girlfriend, now wife, came to visit during that, but generally speaking it‟s a pretty cloistered existence. Interviewer: How does the experience change from year to year while you are there? Oh dramatically, as soon as that first year is over you‟re a real person and then every summer, as different training things associated with it, that first summer afterwards, the whole class is out at a camp on the reservation, for pure military, for sixty days, and each summer we got thirty days off, we were paid by the way. Interviewer: What would you do with your time off? I usually came out here to Michigan to visit my future wife‟s family and sponge off the family. 11:06 Interviewer: So, you’re there, so how long, total, were you then at West Point? Four years Interviewer: 1964 to 1968, now this is, of course, an interesting time in terms of American history and what’s going on with the military because the Vietnam War was ramping up significantly. How much attention were you paying to all of that as you were going through West Point? 6 �It was constant, I mean because we all knew people who were dying and that would be reported at the evening meal. The instruction began to change to accommodate the kind of tactics that were being called for, just as it‟s been changed now for Iraq and Afghanistan, so it was a constant topic. Interviewer: Did you have people coming back from Vietnam and kind of talking about what they were experiencing and doing and so forth? Very much so, the faculty was all guys who had been to Vietnam and were back, so they had a lot to impart and it was really useful, actually. 12:04 Interviewer: What was the morale of the cadets like as they’re going through this and the war is escalating? It was high because we knew we had volunteered for this, and so, you take your lumps. I don‟t remember if it was 1966 or 1967 when General Westmoreland came back to address congress, basically, attempting to get more troops assigned, and since he had come all that way, he came up for dinner one night, because he‟s a grad, and he addressed us all. The way he put it was, “Don‟t worry men, if they call it off now, it will take long enough to wind down, that you‟ll all still go”, so what we had in Vietnam, in my opinion, was a great live fire exercise in which people could prove their mettle and build their resumes and make their careers and that‟s the way a lot of people looked at it. 13:09 This is my chance to do what I‟ve trained for. Interviewer: Was the general message coming out, one that we were winning, that we were doing it right? What was presented to the public and the congress for quite some time was that everything was a great success, at least up until Tet. That was 7 �the public impression that you were getting from the veterans and from what you knew within West Point? You know, I don‟t remember there being any drum beating. Most of the time you would be talking to a young Captain, and then you‟re talking about the sort of nitty gritty aspects of tactics and that sort of thing, so we didn‟t have a lot of conversation about the global purpose and so forth. 14:01 Interviewer: Right That had to sort of dawn on me along the way. Interviewer: So, at that point you’re focusing much more on just the physical, practical and immediate problems with what you going to do when you’re out there in the field in this situation you’re at, and small unit tactics and leadership and that kind of thing. Now, there was a great sentiment among us for people who were our age, college age, who were protesting the war. We understood what they were saying and no one held them in any disregard, which was interesting. We actually practiced, our color guards practiced, defending the flag with these ceremonial bayonets in the event there should be some disruption of sorts, but none of us felt any animosity toward these people, and I don‟t recall anyone speaking in those terms, we‟re just in a different pack. 15:04 Interviewer: What sort of contact did you have with people, maybe, who were protesting or things like that? Personally not that much, although back then Armed Forces Day was a big deal in New York and there was a huge parade down 5th Avenue, and in the order of march, the cadets at West Point go first in any military parade, and it just so happened my third year, my 8 �junior year, I was in the front rank of the front unit, there were just a few people out ahead of us, and we were coming right along Central Park down 5th Avenue and a bunch of students, or young people, rushed out and plopped down in the middle of 5th Avenue with flowers in their arms and we went into marking time. It took about that long (snap of the fingers) for the New York City police to grab them by the arms and haul them off the street. 16:02 Then we proceeded, and here we were marching across all these flowers that these kids had dropped and we felt badly about it, because you can talk out of the side of your mouth or talk without turning your head and there was a lot of conversation about it, and we felt badly. It was on the front page of the New York Times. Interviewer: Did you have occasions to be kind of in New York on your own while you were a cadet in the middle of all of this? Yeah, there was the occasion where we had a thing called “the fine arts forum” and we called it “the culture club” because it was a way to get out for the weekend so, we had to go the Huntington Hartford Gallery, and we had to go to the ballet. You learned to like ballet in the process, but at the time it was just a device. So, we went in the Huntington Hartford Gallery, which is at the south west corner of Central Park, and we went up and down in there real fast and out the door, I did it. 17:02 When we came out the door was the gathering for the great “hippie” rally in Central Park, and these young people streaming into the park all being really pleasant with us, and if I‟d of had my wits about me I would have gone and witnessed it, but I was more interested in getting back to the hotel and changing out of my uniform. Interviewer: Right 9 �We went off, so I came that close to a historic event. Interviewer: When was in terms of the war? That would have been in 1966 Interviewer: Okay, was that the start of your junior year? Spring of 1966 Interviewer: It might have been 1967 It might have been 1967 Interviewer: It depends if it was actually fall or spring I guess. I think it was spring Interviewer: Probably early 1967. So, at that stage then there was not necessarily animosity, or hostility, directed toward men in uniform, because part of the postVietnam story later stuff is, people didn’t want to be seen in their uniforms. 18:00 People would say bad thing and so forth, but if you go back there, at least early 1967, even in New York, which is a place where you might expect people to do all sorts of stuff, it wasn’t really working that way, at least not for you. No, it never worked that way for me. I later discovered there were some people who were uneasy about me in the business setting, but nobody ever said anything to me. I was actually hired at IBM because I was a veteran, because the people at IBM that do the hiring, are the managers for whom you‟re going to work, and the guy who hired me was a veteran and he liked it, so I actually benefited from it in that respect. Interviewer: All right, when did you then graduate from West Point? June of 1968 Interviewer: So, the Tet Offensive--- 10 �The day Bobby Kennedy was shot Interviewer: Okay, and so what was going through your head at about that point in time? 19:01 You’re finishing up and all this stuff is going on. I was getting married too and it was very interesting. In January of 1968 our branches were already determined. I was going to be in the infantry and I‟m still not sure how it works now, but back then you would, by branch, be herded into a room and there would be a map of the world there with assignments, so that you could pick your first assignment. The guys who weren‟t getting married were all picking the glamour units in Vietnam and I‟m sitting there listening to General Westmoreland tell me, “Don‟t worry, I‟m going to go”. I was looking at the map and there were three assignments in Berlin, so it came my name and I said, “I‟ll go to Berlin”, and so, for the first year of being married- and then there was a lot of training after graduation, and Ranger School, Airborne School, those tickets being punched. 20:05 We got to Berlin in January of 1969 and this is probably more detail than you want, but tours in Germany were three year tours. They were still called three year tours, if you were cut short of a tour by less than a year the army owed you money for the relocation of family, so I stayed 365 days in Germany. I got my orders at ten months to leave on the 365th day, so they didn‟t have to pay any money, but, Berlin was a fascinating experience. Interviewer: Let’s backtrack a little bit. You’re talking about going through training schools and so forth. They put you—basically you were at that point not assigned to a unit yet when you graduated from West Point? I was headed for a unit, but went into a training phase. 21:02 11 �Interviewer: Was it just for that unit and it’s type of work there or for different things? No, it was officer basic training, there was a great—the army is smart enough to not give West Point people any real advantage. Our four years at West Point we carried active duty ID‟s, but the time didn‟t count, and we went through the same track that everybody did, so we went to an officer basic course at Fort Benning, which led into Ranger School, which then Airborne School and then off to wherever you were going to go, so that was very general training. Interviewer: What kind of interaction relationship was there between the officer candidates who were coming from other programs, or whatever, and the ones coming out of West Point? Did you all just mix together? Yeah, people from the Citadel, VMI, and ROTC programs, we were all mixed together and everybody got along great. No one ever, I never saw any friction in that regard. 22:06 Interviewer: The West Point people were not holding themselves up as higher, they weren’t being viewed as being a bunch of snobs by the other ones? No, not that I ever experienced Interviewer: How much integration was there in the officer corps at this point? Not much, are talking about racial integration? Interviewer: Yeah Not much, we had several African Americans in my class, several Asian Americans, and then the military academy has always drawn from protectorates and foreign countries, so there was a fellow in my company the year behind me who was Costa Rican, for 12 �example, so there was that degree of integration. The integration that you mostly felt was being with people from all fifty states and all the protectorates that was fascinating. 23:01 But no, the army was not—it was headed that way, but it wasn‟t there yet. Interviewer: So, you work your way through all of this, did your wife go down to Georgia with you? Yeah Interviewer: Did you live on base or off? Off Interviewer: What was that experience like? You’ve been living in Indiana, Michigan, New York, those kinds of places, how much of a culture shock was there to go down there to Fort Benning? In most respects not much, but it‟s interesting that you brought up the racial question because we were downtown in Columbus Georgia one Sunday morning, we‟d gone to some breakfast place, and we walked out on the sidewalk and an old black man wearing bib overalls leaped off of the sidewalk to get out of the way of my wife, who was shaken by it, and still I am. We both went running over and dragged him back up onto the sidewalk. 24:06 I mean, we grew up in a town that was sixty-five percent black and we were not accustomed to being around black people, but we were sure unaccustomed to that kind of behavior and that was shocking. Otherwise, it was mostly hanging out with the other young marrieds and going to work. Interviewer: Okay, so you work your way through that phase and then you go over, you go to Berlin. Now, what unit were you assigned to there, when you went to Berlin? 13 �The 18th Infantry, it was an infantry brigade in Berlin, an artillery company and then there was us, the French, and the Brits, and if you looked at the—we actually had the arrogance to suggest that this force was holding back the five Russian divisions that were around the city. I mean, they would have hung a “prisoner of war” sign on the wire and that would have been it. 25:02 If you looked at the perimeter of Berlin, down the center, east and west, and then the sector border between West Berlin and East Germany, the defensive plan, we took up, the French, Brits, and Americans, took up about a third of it and the Berlin police force took up the rest, they were trained militarily, they were something else, those guys. I did have the experience of patrolling the wall and the sector border, and because we had the rite to cross the wall, the military did, we were encouraged to do it so as to not lose the rite. At that time you exchanged one American dollar for four western marks, you exchanged one western mark for four east marks, so when you went across it was at sixteen to one on the dollar. 26:03 the lowliest private could go to the best restaurant in East Berlin and you couldn‟t help being an ugly American throwing money around, so there we were in our 1968 Pontiac working our way through “Checkpoint Charlie” to get over to—my wife and I, you had to go in uniform and then cruising around in East Berlin, which was a somber and sobering experience because West Berlin was vibrant and multi-cultural and just a high energy place, and East Berlin was gray and very somber. Kids would speak to you out of the corner of their mouths and that kind of thing. Interviewer: I’m not sure that people even knew that sort of thing went on, that American soldiers were going over into East Berlin. The assumption is there’s just this very—now did Soviet soldiers come over into West Berlin then? 14 �No, they didn‟t so much-- they did, but not in any numbers. 27:05 One thing that we did do, the American, French, Brits and the Russians guarded Spandau Prison and Rudolph Hess was still alive at the time. He was the only prisoner, and the game was for—to report one another for infractions and not handling the guard duty properly. Hess himself enjoyed drawing people into that; you weren‟t supposed to speak to him. One time I was the officer of the guard there and I called up to one of the towers and said, “Tell me when he‟s out taking his constitutional because I want to go and look at this guy”, and so, he was walking ahead of me, going in the same direction, and I was walking to overtake him, ostensibly checking the guards, and as I reached him, to overtake him, he whirled around and looked me right in the eye. 28:08 I was this close to saying, “Excuse me”, for which I would have been reported to the Russians, so that kind of thing was rather fascinating. A strange guy, Hess, and the whole prison was a kind of medieval sort of structure. Interviewer: How did he conduct himself, as far as you can tell? Was he passive? A very passive guy, he gardened and he walked and I don‟t know what he did, I never got in actually to the cell, just the shell of the place. Interviewer: Strange business—now while you’re in Berlin, were the people in Germany paying attention to things like Vietnam and that sort of stuff, were they aware that was going on? I don‟t know—I mean, I was fairly oblivious, and I was more interested in my own experience. 29:03 The people in Berlin all spoke English. You would try to speak German and they were appreciative of it, but they‟d lapse right into colloquial English, so I never engaged much in any of that kind of conversation with them. Another interesting 15 �thing about Berlin—our little measly battalion was headquartered in what had been the headquarters of communications for the Third Reich and there were no infantry Captains in Germany, so these young Lieutenants, we all took company commands. I had an office, possibly, half the size of this room with a ceiling about this high that was totally wood paneled and our brigade headquarters had been the headquarters of the Luftwaffe and it was like a movie going in that place. This rising cobblestone drive up to the big circular thing and you walk into this enormous rotunda, and it was an infantry brigade. 30:11 It was pretty amazing. Interviewer: You talked about your interactions with the German people and so forth. Were they interested in any kinds of things American and that sort of stuff? Oh yes, very much—I mean you could buy American culture on the streets and that‟s where I bought the “Hair” album, and that‟s where I saw “Hair‟, in Berlin, auf deutsch, and Donna Summer was in it. And yeah, it was a very cosmopolitan town. It felt like a prison after a while though, you were very aware. Interviewer: You couldn’t go anywhere really. You could, but it was a process. The army actually had a train that went down to West Germany and it was like the Orient Express. 31:06 Mahogany paneled, these heavy sheets and these sleeping compartments, and at each stop along the way the Russians would come barging onto the train and look at your ID and my wife‟s passport and that kind of thing. It was all show, but it was exciting. Interviewer: How much of a cold war atmosphere was there? Was anybody thinking that a war could actually break out? 16 �Yeah, Czechoslovakia, for example, there was—the Russians were holding Czechoslovakia while I was there and we were alerted for that, but we wouldn‟t have been involved, it would have been units from the states, but there was a high sense of jeopardy. Of course, we‟re people who came out of high school in a highly industrial area, where the day of the missile, that crucial day of the missile faceoff, we all expected to be obliterated. 32:06 There was no sound in an otherwise adolescent cacophony. It was dead silent in the halls of our high school , so cold war was part of all of our mentality , and it was part of our instruction at West Point because that was still—the holding back the Russians was still part of the mentality. Interviewer: You get to the end of the year there in Berlin and now you’re heading back to the states? On my way to Vietnam, yeah Interviewer: And you had orders for Vietnam already. You knew where you were going? I knew I was going there, I didn‟t know what unit. Interviewer: Describe the process then of going over, going from Berlin to Vietnam. What stages are there, there? Just the trip, getting my wife resituated so she could wait out the period of time and that took us a couple of weeks, and then I was gone. 33:07 She said to me when she took me, this was now 1970, took me to the plane, she said, “You don‟t have to do this, we could go to Canada”, because she had been awakening during this period of time. When I came back—well, to step back—the high ranking, academically high ranking, members of each class at West Point are given the choice, or were, to go directly to graduate school 17 �and then go into the active army while owing two years for one of graduate school. When I was on my way back I saw one of my classmates on the evening news, he was at Harvard, and he was announcing, “I‟m not doing this, I‟m not going to go and participate in that war, I want out”. 34:03 He was allowed out and that impressed my wife. I still had this idea. “Look, I asked for this, it saved me from oblivion, I owe this time and I have to go where they send me”. Interviewer: She’s thinking about the possibility that you’ll be coming home in a bag. Right, and so I went Interviewer: Where did you leave from? Where did you settle her? We settled her back home in Gary, and she was teaching at our old high school. I can‟t remember the name of the air force base in northern California, but I went out through San Francisco back out into the valley and there was an air force base there and we took off from there to Alaska. Interviewer: So, you were in a military jet then and not a civilian? No, it was a modified commercial, full of nothing but troops. 35:04 It was a stretch eight and they put extra seats in it, and I was in the back seat, with this thing bobbing all over the place on the way over there. On the last two hours on our way into Vietnam, some guy locked himself in the bathroom right behind me and no one could get him to come out, so the first thing, when we landed, up come some MP‟s pounding on the door, forced the door open and took this guy out in handcuffs, so that was my first experience. My next experience was stepping out the door and being hit with this heat and humidity. My knees almost buckled, of course I had been seeing just how much beer I could drink 18 �in Germany and how much food I could eat, so I was overweight and I lost about thirty pounds in two weeks. 36:03 Interviewer: Now, where did they land you in Vietnam? At Tan Son Nhut, Saigon, and then put us on a bus and took us to a place to sleep. Then officers were allowed to say what unit they wanted to go to, so I thought, “Gee I‟d like to go to the 1st Cavalry Division, I really like that patch”, and my second choice was the 101st Airborne, my third choice was “The Big Red One”, and I got the 101st. Interviewer: How soon did you get sent up there? The next day, and the transport then was a C-130 with cargo pallets, with straps on the cargo pallets, and you sat cross legged and held on to the strap and that was the comfort of military travel. Interviewer: When you were first there in the Saigon area, and so forth, what indications did you have that there was a war going on? 37:01 Very little, by that time Tan Son Nhut was very domesticated. My great regret is that I never got into the city of Saigon; I never really had much to do with the people. I think it‟s odd that I went over there with sort of a sense of alienation from things Asian, and I came back with this abiding regard for things Asian, without ever really interacting with people that much, but they were gorgeous people, and I thought resourceful and strong people. Interviewer: Where was the 101st based at that time? In the far northern most region, the city of Hue, just outside Hue was the division basecamp, my brigade was farther north, just south of the demilitarized zone, and our area of operation, fortunately, depending on how you look at it, was a national forest 19 �preserve, so there never had been people living there. 38:11 So, we didn‟t have this difficulty distinguishing civilians from combatants, so from our perspective, if it moved you would shoot it, and we never had to confront that notion of—my brother, in the navy, did, he was a swift boat skipper and he some real difficult calls to make trying to determine if they were shooting civilians. Interviewer: What was your first assignment once you got up there? I was a platoon leader of the Alpha Company of the 2/506 Infantry. We had just begun a campaign that was involved in establishing a firebase, a fire support base called Ripcord. 39:03 It was picked because it was in proximity to the main supply route that brought things down from North Vietnam, down in Laos and then into South Vietnam. Our purpose was to disrupt this supply line. Interviewer: So you have what’s a potential check point on the Ho Chi Minh Trail I guess is the way to look at it. Yes, it worked that way. It was interesting that this was during the period of Vietnamization, which was a term the Nixon Administration coined, which was, “Get the Vietnamese to handle while we‟re in the background”, which was not the case where we were. What was the case though, was that we weren‟t going to be reinforced because that would have put more Americans into this fray. In fire support bases the principle was, artillery units are on top of these hilltops, secured by infantry, and infantry units operate within range, fire support range, of this artillery. 40:11 So, we were out moving around, off in platoon size units, and in Vietnam the target was the enemy, not terrain, which is why so often you saw things like “Hamburger Hill”, which was the year prior right in that same area, where at great expense you take a hill and you walk away from it because the 20 �idea was to fix and kill the enemy, so that‟s what we were attempting to do. What we now know , my commanding officer at that time had gone back and really researched all this, he‟s met with commanders from the other side, is that there were parts of three divisions of the North Vietnamese Army. 41:00 They were regular soldiers whose task it was to get us out of there. So, from the period March to July of 1970, was that set piece battle, almost. It did culminate with a massive assault on the firebase that drove us out of the area. In fact, on that day the firebase was just overrun and as it was overrun it started to be air struck because the artillery tubes had to be left, a lot of ammunition had to be left, and it was just a, “get the humans out of there” evacuation. So we just struck it, and struck it, and struck it for days, and guys I know have been back. Shortly thereafter, one of the senior officers was on leave in Hong Kong, R&R, and actually saw a display with photos, from Ripcord, declaring this victory of the people‟s army. 42:14 It was true. Interviewer: What sort of a reception did you get when you arrived? You’re flying over there in a C-130, they land you at Hoe, do you go out on the ground, do you go out to the base by helicopter--how did you get out to the position? I was trucked up to the basecamp for our brigade and then helicoptered out. I went out actually, with our new battalion chaplain; he was going out to visit my unit. Interviewer: Now, was the post you were at, was that a battalion size post or brigade post, or what was it? Brigade, Camp Evans Interviewer: So, that’s what you were physically defending? 21 �No, that was—that was a base camp, in the lowlands, out near the coast. 43:02 Vietnam starts at this gorgeous, gorgeous coast, works its way through very fertile land, at least in our part of the country, and then goes immediately into very rugged mountains all the way through Laos, so our area was out in those mountains. The lowlands were well controlled by ourselves and the South Vietnamese Army. It was the highlands that were in contention, so I was helicoptered out to my unit. Interviewer: The Ripcord camp itself, I guess that’s what I was saying, that base was that a battalion base or brigade base or what was it? That was a battalion headquarters, it had one company of infantry, two artillery batteries, 105‟s and 155‟s, and a 4.2 mm mortar platoon, and had these quad fifties that were an invention in Vietnam, which was four, 50 Caliber barrels on one device that would fire simultaneously. 44:02 Interviewer: Of course, they had a version of that as far back as WWII. Yeah Interviewer: It was initially designed for anti-aircraft, but they could use them also as fire support for the ground troops. Right Interviewer: That’s not a whole lot of infantry to defend a position with. A company could do it. Interviewer: How many men in a company when it’s— Full strength? Interviewer: Or at least as full strength as you normally had? 22 �Well, a full strength company would have been a hundred and forty four. Most of our companies were a lot less than that, about half. At one point my company, later when I was a company commander, got down to seventeen and they sent us thirty-four replacements in one day, all at once, on Ripcord, and they said, “Get out of here”, and all we could do was say, “Okay, new guy, old guy, new guy, old guy”, so we put it-- and just got off the firebase. 45:00 Interviewer: Now, what was your first impression when you got to the firebase, when you arrived there? Actually, I went straight out to the field to my unit, so it was some time later, we were actually on a hilltop across from Ripcord, that I first beheld it and it‟s an interesting thing because it looks like an industrialized hilltop in the middle of the forest, because the first thing you do is denude it of trees, and then all kinds of wire and obstacles around it, gun emplacements for the infantry and then the artillery tubes sticking up on top. It was prehistoric looking, almost, out in the midst of that forest. Interviewer: Where was your platoon when you joined it then? On some hill 46:00 Interviewer: So, they just helicoptered you out there? To a LZ, a landing zone Interviewer: Why did you have that particular assignment? I don‟t know that was luck of the draw by the time I got to the battalion and the prior platoon leader had been killed on the initial assault on firebase Ripcord. That company was the initial assault and they got blown back. It was secured later by a different company, so I replaced the young guy who was killed. 23 �Interviewer: What impression did you have of the men in the platoon you joined? I loved these guys. One of the things I really loved, I was never in the all-volunteer army, I‟m sure these are great soldiers, and I loved draftees. They would speak up, they would object, they would question, and I would answer them and I always thought that was kind of healthy. 47:06 One of the things I learned at West Point was, that when the Hessians were supporting us, I mean when the Prussians, supporting us in the revolution, one of the things that most infuriated them was that American soldiers always wanted to know why we were doing what we were about to do, which is something they were totally unaccustomed to and there later testimony was, they felt that was the strength of the Continental Army, and I agree. I just enjoyed their company. Interviewer: What approach did you take? You’re a new platoon commander, you have no combat experience, you’re joining a unit of men who’ve been in the field for a while, and how did you deal with them, or try to win them over? What did you do when you got there? To their great credit, they weren‟t out to test anybody; they were out to support me because we were all in this mess together. 48:00 There was a young sergeant E5, who was the platoon sergeant, who was extremely supportive and helpful, and because of him we managed. Interviewer: And you had the good sense to listen to him. You bet, and my company commander coached me and I‟d been training for six years for this job, so I knew a lot about how to conduct myself and I knew that being respectful of them was the way to be. 24 �Interviewer: Because one of the sorts of stereotypes of the whole Vietnam situation is that you get these newly minted officers, Lieutenants, coming in and because they’re Lieutenants and they’re in charge, they just go and do things their way. How common do you think that actually was? Not terribly, I think once you get out there you realize the geo-politics has nothing to do with what were up to here. My aim was for them to survive. 49:03 I felt sorry for them. I volunteered for this and they got stuck in it, and I wanted to do the best I could to make sure they could make it home. Now, you can‟t be reluctant, because that could make matters worse, but you can also avoid trouble where you can. Now our method when moving around--dawn would arrive, we‟d have a mission to get from here over to there and see what you can find. So, we‟d wake up in the morning and cook up some instant coffee and just start firing artillery where we were going to go and airstrikes, I mean, we spent huge amounts of money for an afternoon walk to get from here to there. So, that‟s a way that you can see to protect these guys, clear the enemy out before you head into where they are. 50:02 Interviewer: Did you have occasions to go into places that weren’t so clear, kind of into jungle proper and that kind of thing? Oh, very much Interviewer: How did you operate when you were doing that? How did you deal with the men? How did we deploy them? Interviewer: Yeah 25 �In a platoon size unit you‟d have a point element, a point man, and a slack man, just back from the point man, and then there was a choice about the next few people, typically the platoon leader would be no farther back than the fifth guy and then you‟ve got your radio operator who, when there is line of sight, is a pretty clear indicator of who the Lieutenant is. We wore no rank in the field, but you could figure it out if you could observe the unit and I think that why, in all wars, this one included, there was high mortality. The fellow that replaced me was killed and then when I was promoted to Captain, I replaced a guy who was killed and the fellow that replaced me survived. 51:05 So, there was high mortality in the junior officer ranks. Interviewer: Do you think it helped you to have been in Germany for a year first? So you were in a position where you were commanding, you were used to working with enlisted men and dealing with them acting like Americans, so you had experience on a practical level that was working with these guys and getting along with them and still expecting to do that and then that works that way for you Interviewer: Yes, I‟m sure it helped. Berlin was very interesting because they handpicked the enlisted men, and because what we could not have was some international incident with Russians, so there tended to be a lot of—I had a college graduate driving my Jeep, you know, a lot of really interesting, broadly experienced, young soldiers and plenty who were returning from Vietnam. Interviewer: Describe a little bit how the situation developed there at Ripcord. 52:05 Now when you got there were things relatively quiet at that point? We were operating in platoon size units and there was regular contact. We did—various elements would contact the enemy fairly regularly. We would then sometimes group into 26 �a company size unit and most of the time we were just searching through the areas looking to make contact with the enemy. Interviewer: What were they doing? They were moving supplies and harassing us largely. Ambushes, and that sort of thing and that began to grow over that period of time and they would go from very small units to fair sized units. Night attacks on firebases. I sat on a hill one night and just watched a different firebase just light up with a major attack on it, and we were just sitting there, a beautiful night, starlit, just watching the show. 53:09 Interviewer: Did the artillery at your base support them? Oh yeah, and the air, we had these C-130‟s that were modified with quad fifties, and mini-guns that would fire like a hose of machine gun fire, and they would get a wing on a place like that and they would hose it down, just hose it down. And, of course, the defensive positions had a thing—have you ever heard the term fougas? Interviewer: Yes It was a mix of oil and jet fuel in a barrel with a claymore mine behind it and you detonate the claymore and it would shoot a flame out into the wire to burn people attacking. 54:00 So, there would be a lot of explosives going off at a time like that. This just built and built and built until we were in fairly regular contact, all of us, all the time. Interviewer: Were you still able to go off the base and conduct patrols? Oh yes Interviewer: So you weren’t being held in the perimeter the whole time? 27 �No, we were always out, building our own perimeters at night, and there were a couple of events. There was a Hill 805, so called by its elevation. I was there several times and one night, listening on the radio, while a different company was on this hill and being attacked and they kept them there and they were attacked again, and they kept them there and they were attacked again, and then they moved them out, and they moved a different company up there. They made it okay, and we were assigned to go up and take their place. 55:08 As we came up on top of this hill, they were going off of the hill, and their lead element was ambushed. So, the first thing you do in a scenario like that, is you call for fire support, gunships and artillery, and the best way to do that is to get the long antenna up on the radio for the best reception. We were busying ourselves and we‟re looking over here and here comes—it looked like something out of a cartoon, a black cloud with lightning going out of it like this, otherwise a beautiful day. We were looking at it and we thought, “That is coming right at us”, and sure enough it did. 56:00 I was standing with one of the sergeants and the tree about twenty feet away just blew up, totally consistent with the rocket propelled grenades that the enemy would fire at us, so I figured that‟s what it was in that instant, but in the next instant I was doubled over at the waist and the sergeant next to me was sitting on the ground with his legs straight out in front of him and the guys from Bravo Company, who gathered around the long antenna, were all just all flat out on the ground. No medevac, because you could not see in that moment more than twenty feet, and the driving rain and this socked in environment. Interviewer: Was it a lightning strike in the tree? Yes, it was a lightning strike. We‟re standing around and the medics are running around with smelling salts, and basically we just waited and they came to, and they were okay 28 �and they shook it off and walked off the hill. 57:03 That was an interesting experience and for me, it felt like I‟d been punched in the gut and I doubled over. Interviewer: Now, when you’re out there on these patrols and you take casualties, people get hit, or whatever, what was the procedure? How would you deal with then? Get to a landing zone and get a medevac, and if you couldn‟t get to a landing zone, you would drop what was called a jungle penetrator from the medevac, which would hover and it would come down through the trees and you‟d strap the guy onto this penetrator and haul him back up. Medevac pilots were unbelievable. Interviewer: Were their helicopters basically targets for anybody on the ground? Yeah, and there was constant helicopter traffic, it was constant; you could always hear a blade somewhere. It was very interesting to do—they would often move us by helicopter. Our mission would be to get to this landing zone and then you‟re going to be choppered over there. 58:02 That was part of the principle of the division, was mobility to keep the enemy guessing, so you‟d get up on these LZ‟s and here come the helicopters, so you‟d wait to see if this was going to be a contested take off, and organize yourselves, get on these choppers, you know the young Lieutenant would always be on the first chopper in to the new location. The platoon sergeant on the last chopper out and then when you‟re going into these LZ‟s, they‟d always prep them with fire, artillery fire, often airstrikes and then as you‟re going in aerial gunships right alongside the first chopper, just firing and firing and just pouring fire into these LZ‟s, and it was exciting. When you‟d get to the LZ you couldn‟t exactly land because there were tree stumps, and so we‟d spend a fair amount of time airborne out of the chopper with these sixty-eight 29 �pound packs on our backs. 59:10 I used to say, “By the time we‟re forty, we‟re all going to have bad backs”, and I had a bad back by the time I was thirty. Interviewer: Now, was that kind of method for preparing, was that effective? I mean did you tend to not get much ground fire at least when you first showed up? Yeah, it was pretty effective and the enemy knew it was going to happen, so why would they volunteer to stand around for that, but every now and then you would get fire from another location and it would be hard to identify. Interviewer: Now, did the North Vietnamese have a lot of artillery and things like that, or heavier weapons? Yes, rockets and recoilless rifles, and they were superb soldiers and they had an ample supply of small arms, the RPD machine gun was a great machine gun and the AK47 automatic weapon. 0:07 They—their hand grenades were not as good as ours. I was wounded by one of their hand grenades and if it had been one of ours, I‟d have been killed, and then they started to bring more and more of that—heavy mortars, you could sense it coming into our area and Ripcord would take fire at all times. They had light mortars, I was standing on the helipad at Ripcord one night with a couple other young officers and we heard “poof, poof”, and we looked over and here were these black smoke things from the ineffectual mortars, and so the way you get at the time—we were just standing there, “Who cares”, unless it sounds like something heavier. Interviewer: When they were using heavier weapons, do you have any means of using counter battery fire? I mean, could you shoot back at them? 1:03 Yeah, you could—you‟re guessing a lot in that kind of terrain, in that kind of forest. We were certainly better equipped and we had these light observation helicopters, another 30 �bunch of crazy young guys flying these things, crazy. They would go “whoo” right down into those little valleys and they‟d look—“Oh, over there”, and they‟d fly away and then they‟d start to direct fire, but there‟s a very mobile enemy, they knew that was our mode and they‟d pick up and move out after firing a few rounds, usually ass this began to heat up. There‟s one thing in particular that I want to get on record, and that was, there was a time when—after I was in Alpha Company as a platoon leader, I was the Charlie Company commander and we were down to about thirty people, at this point. 2:08 We were sent on a mission to retrieve what was called a mechanical ambush. This was— mechanical ambushes would be set out away from a nighttime perimeter with a tripwire that would fire claymore mines, which fire pellets, ball bearings. Bravo Company had set one--they had been hustled out of that area before they could dismantle it, so they sent these guys from Bravo Company to us and we sent a patrol down to retrieve this ambush—they were ambushed, and we had a guy with three days left in country who was just blown in half by a RPG in that event. That was a real blow to the morale of our company because he was a very popular guy and very willing, he could have gotten out of there. 3:07 When they came back our medic had been wounded with them, our one medic, so now we have no medic. I reported this fact, so they sent us a new medic. So in that same afternoon in the passing of resupply and medevac‟ing comes this new medic. So, he was trotted over to me and I looked at him, and you know, medics weren‟t infantry men, but they were armed, and this guy had no weapon. I said, “Where‟s your weapon?” He said, “I don‟t carry one, I‟m a conscientious objector”, and this guy was for real. He was so innocent and so willing and I thought, “Oh, this—this is wrong” 4:01 Somebody, the system, is doing it to this guy; this guy could have been at Walter Reed 31 �or someplace, he would have been a great guy in a hospital, but no, they had to go and stick him in an infantry unit, an undermanned infantry unit, in a combat situation. I just thought it was horrific. Well, the next day our mission was—we were helicoptered right near Ripcord, there was a hill with an easy line of sight of Ripcord and the enemy was pouring fire into Ripcord from this hill [Hill 1000]. The day that the medic had shown up, on that day Delta Company had assaulted that hill, they had left two dead bodies on the hill, and had been repulsed. So, the idea was, Delta Company would go back up, retrieve those bodies, there was much done about retrieving bodies, which I never saw. 5:07 I figured if I‟m out there and I‟m twitching, I want everybody to do whatever they can. If I‟m dead, I don‟t want somebody else to get killed because I got killed, but there‟s something in the mentality, and I understand the theory, I just don‟t subscribe to it. Then we were to go around the base of the hill and come up behind this emplacement, so the two pronged attack. Well, they started prepping that hill first thing in the morning, everything, and Ripcord, they put the tubes at zero elevation and they were just firing rounds into it. They air struck it, gassed it, continued with every form of artillery, naval artillery, and we realized, this is an intense thing, so we left our normally heavy equipment in a secure spot at the foot of Ripcord and took off with just canteens and ammunition. 6:10 We worked our way around, got up on top of this hill, Delta company‟s coming up this way, and we started across, there was a saddle, you know—a high point here, Ripcord, and a high point here, which is where we gained, and we started across and just immediately, very, very heavy small arms fire, and we ended up in a bomb crater. In that first burst, one of the guys was just cut down, dead. This medic just walked out, he just walked out there. Now, that kid should not have been there. 7:02 32 �Anyone else would have had a greater sense of self-preservation than this young man did. He walked out there to help the guy and he got killed, “boom”, he lasted twenty four hours and it was wrong. So, there came a point where one of the other guys—we had another guy in the company who came this close to being a priest and decided he wasn‟t going to go all the way. A highly religious fellow, he still is, so as we‟re walking along the base of this hill, at the top of his voice, he‟s reciting The Lord‟s Prayer, I mean it was dramatic. Well, we‟re in the bomb crater and he takes his helmet puts it on a stick and peeks it up over these logs and the machine gun fire is right on it, so we were really stuck, because we had nothing but open space between us and them, and we were ordered to do it. 8:00 Actually, I got my sequence incorrect, it was when we were ordered to do it that we began the assault and it was so intense that‟s when the guy got cut down and that‟s when the medic walked out, and then we ducked back into this crater thinking about, “What are we doing here?” Delta Company was making no progress. Interviewer: Now, you’re in a situation where the Americans have been using fire power all the time, heavy weapons and so forth, now, you’re actually in a position where you found someone that’s shooting at you. At this point do you have air or artillery support? Well yes, except we were too close and that was one of the real tactical errors of this whole operation. You got Delta Company right there, and you got us right here, and so, air support, if it had come over us, might have shot us, might have shot them. 9:01 No matter how you looked at it, it would have come into us. While we were there trying to think, “What are we going to do now?” One of these little observation helicopters came in and our brigade S3 in the helicopter and he said, “You‟re being maneuvered on by a 33 �mass of enemy troops coming around behind us”, so then we got the order, “Ok, well get off”, thank God, so we started down the hill and I was, you know—the guys were going a little bit more, I was afraid, toward the maneuver element coming around behind us. I wanted to go more below the military crest, so the guys on top of the hill couldn‟t shoot us, so I was urging them this way, carrying two dead bodies, which are extremely heavy and unworkable—and hot, really hot. 10:06 The prep of this hill had been so intense that when you stepped on it, it came up over your ankles, and I was urging them to come this way and there was a moment when I realized, “Oh my God, I stuck my head up too far, and I thought, “I‟m dead”, but I ducked and I wasn‟t. We ended up then back at the LZ that we came in on grouped with Delta Company, and my battalion commander came in on his chopper and he jumped out and said, “When can you be ready to go back up?” And I was just angry, so I responded angrily and I said, “That is crazy, how are we going to go back up under these circumstances when these guys are exhausted?” I mean, they had sweat every drop of water they possibly could. 11:03 I mean, hard to walk after a day and it‟s late now and he‟s thinking about going back up, so that‟s where he and I started to get crosswise. Another interesting thing, then we went into a joint perimeter with Delta Company and my big pleasure was boiling water and making instant coffee. You did this on this small can with holes cut in it. Did you talk to guys about this? Interviewer: Yes And then with heat tablets in it and then a pear can, which is a larger can, with the lid crunched as a handle. So, I was boiling the water and I was leaning against my rucksack, and during this, from Ripcord, they‟re firing direct fire over us just to continue to suppress the hill here. 12:01 And you hear ttttt,ttttt, shrapnel going through the trees, 34 �and my pear can shifted and I said, “Oh, no”, and I leaped forward to get my pear can, and when I did a piece of shrapnel, about that big, came wheeee, and whacked right against my rucksack. Interviewer: Right where you had been sitting. Right where my chest was, and that is the essence of combat, you know, you‟re dead, you‟re fine, it‟s amazing, the tolerances—why--and this is where survival guilt comes from in my opinion. “How come I made it and the guy next to me didn‟t? Was it skill?” It‟s not, its pure random luck. Interviewer: How far into your time there, at Ripcord, do those events take place? That was July Interviewer: You’re getting close to the end then, at that point? Yes, it was 13:01 Interviewer: Did you get wounded there or did that come later? It was prior, when I was a platoon leader, and in that instance we were in a company size perimeter and then we were the point platoon, so we took off down this ridgeline and we‟re ambushed. Point man is killed right away, and what you do in that circumstance, basically—first you get out of this damn pack, because we carried so much with us, water, ammunition, food and all very heavy, and I went down on my back. I think this is also interesting about combat, because other guys have told me this kind of thing, as I lurched forward, I was seen watching grass just jump, jumping next to me, and it was machine gun fire, and I saw something out of the corner of my eye. 14:03 And I knew in that instant it was a chicom hand grenade, because they had this stem that came up out of them that looked like a can with a stem, where ours were more like a baseball. So, I 35 �knew it was a chicom grenade, I knew I was going to be hurt, I figured I‟d be okay, and this is all as I‟m moving—so the world gets so slow, unbelievable, and this grenade went into a little bush and when it blew, it was sheared by the earth and it hit me like this. I use to bitch every day, because I wore glasses then, about keeping my glasses clean. It was just a game I played, trying to keep my glasses clean, but I bitched about them all the time. Well, these fragments hit my glasses and my helmet. 15:00 One of them nicked me here, in the side of the face, and one went straight into me—hit me in the head and knocked me for a loop. Head wounds bleed like mad, so my glasses were all covered with blood, and I knew I‟d survive, but you medevac a head wound because you‟re not sure, so I did get medevaced, patched up, and then sent back to my platoon, so that was that event. I‟ve heard people tell me—I had a guy tell me one time, he looked and there was an enemy soldier right there and he saw the spin of the round and he missed it, and he killed the guy. I had that experience in a traffic event one time where I was doing 360‟s on 1-96 our here, just watching the other drivers, and it‟s weird. Interviewer: Sometimes when I try to tell people about how this process of interviewing veterans works, I’ll talk to combat veterans and they’ll talk very casually about gun fire and its effects and things like that, and they’ll treat it just like driving on an icy road in Michigan and you’re the first person to actually do that. 16:11 You mentioned at this point where you’re in that bad situation there, and the battalion commander came in and so forth, and that you were kind of at odds with him. Had you and he been working together for that period of time, or was he new? 36 �No, he wasn‟t new; he was there when I got there. He was a good man—you know I felt very badly for that field grade rank. They had by then invested most of their adult lives in their career, and a guy like that is given six months to make your name, and I felt that was very inappropriate, but there are these guys stuck in these situations. 17:01 His commander had six months, and his commander had six months, and this pressure comes down and down and down for results, for something sexy to write up about the unit, for body count, for whatever it was, and it just felt like it was, collectively, we had our eye off the ball, so to speak, and by this time I did question the purpose of the war. I said to him one night on a firebase, I said, “Don‟t you think”, I thought we were just having a conversation, “Don‟t you think that if there were an election held today, that Hoe Chi Minh would win?” Guys who were boxed in like this could not allow that kind of thought, and I was just musing out loud, so that deepened his, I realized later, his dislike for me. 18:08 He was killed on Ripcord, of course, right on the last day, during the evacuation. Interviewer: You described that ended it. How was it—what was it that led to the evacuation of Ripcord? We were overwhelmed by numbers. We were a brigade and they had three divisions. They wanted us gone from that area, so they really committed to it. Interviewer: How much of your brigade, at the time, would actually be out there, just one battalion? No, three battalions Interviewer: Three battalions, so, at a certain point you had all three battalions at Ripcord, or in the immediate vicinity? 37 �We had two, and one was more focused on lowland security, so we really had two who were out there and we were—there was a thing called operational control, OPCON, we had a couple companies from another battalion, OPCON. 19:08 In fact, five of my classmates were killed in that battle. Interviewer: Did you eventually get to the point where you were getting large scale conventional assaults? Yeah, and that was really the—the indirect fire really picked up at Ripcord. By this time I‟m at the brigade headquarters, I‟ve been banished by this guy. He came out one day and said, “You‟re out of here”, and I said, “What are you talking about?” He said, “I think the men have lost confidence in you”, and I said, “Why don‟t you ask them?” he said, “Don‟t give me this, go”, and there‟s my replacement standing there. I will wrap around to this, but as I got in the helicopter I felt terrible, but I never got to say, “See ya” to these guys. 20:05 So, I had been banished to brigade headquarters, and I‟m standing in the tactical operations center, an underground bunker, in a safe area basically, and I‟m listening to this radio traffic, just the intensity growing, and then the decision—I‟m standing there when the decision is made and we got to get everybody out of there, so that became a real logistical issue. The Captain, who had been an enlisted man for years was on his second tour, he was our S3 heir, he‟s the who warned us we were being maneuvered on, he managed this whole thing from the air, he was brilliant. Interviewer: So he, basically, had to lay down fire support to keep the enemy away long enough for you guys to get into the helicopters and get out? Right, and that didn‟t work so well on Ripcord. 21:01 There were choppers shot down, and the battalion commander was running his chopper when a mortar round hit and killed 38 �him and the guy with him. That‟s when this fellow, Bob Kalsu, who had played for the Buffalo Bills was killed. They put thermite grenades down the artillery tubes and thermite grenades just burn with incredible heat and fuse the block, and getting the artillery guys out of there, I mean it was an aerial ballet under intense fire that this fellow, Fred Spaulding, he ran it, so there‟s this Captain really running the show, but, the Generals up in the higher level. Interviewer: So, what did you do after that was over? After Ripcord was over? Interviewer: Yes I settled—I was the evening briefer for the brigade commander, I was in the intelligence office at the brigade headquarters. 22:05 And the rainy season came--it‟s in the dry season when supplies and stuff can really be moved and that‟s why they needed us gone, because the rainy season was coming, and the rainy season tends to be less contact moving around out there, booby traps, the occasional—a lot more booby traps in the wet weather, and the occasional contact, and the South Vietnamese Army moved heavily into our area then. We were doing a lot of coordinating with them, so I rode in a lot of helicopters, went to a lot of basecamps, and ran radios. Interviewer: What sort of impression did you have of the South Vietnamese Army, or the people you dealt with? I didn‟t deal with them much, what I was aware of was that their hygiene was horrible. On our firebase rats were a terrible problem and I thought rats were city critters, but they‟re everywhere. 23:08 At Ripcord, for example, you would use these sleeves that artillery tubes came in and fill them with earth, or something and make them part of the 39 �security of the emplacements. Well, they would use them for garbage, and pee in them and otherwise—it was pretty nasty, so there was a time our brigade headquarters, me included, were on a firebase that was secured by ARVN‟s, and it was an ARVN artillery battery, and, man, I did notice the rat population was much higher on that firebase than at Ripcord, or others I had been on, or basecamp, for that matter, but I couldn‟t judge their competence, I never really worked with them in the field. 24:03 I think there was a lot of hope, by then, that the war would somehow find an end other than what ultimately happened, and both countries were running low of young men, the north and the south, so probably the quality of the ARVN Army went down, but I don‟t truly know. Interviewer: So, how much longer did you stay in Vietnam after Ripcord was finished? Another five months Interviewer: And it was basically this kind of duty at that point? Yeah, on radios talking to the battalions, doing briefing on a big—in another bunker with a big illuminated map. Interviewer: Right, and once you were doing that, did you have a better sense of, really, what the overall picture, or scheme of thing was and what was happening in the war, or were you still kind of just focused on the sector that you were responsible for? Yeah sure, and then I was just counting my days. 25:02 That‟s what kept people sane in Vietnam, was counting the days. Interviewer: One of the observations that gets made a lot about Vietnam, and how things were handled, has to do with the system of rotating men in and out of there 40 �and its effect on unit morale cohesion and things like that, because people got sent in and out individually rather than as whole units. Do you think that was a problem, or did it have benefits that balanced out the problems with it? Well, I think to some—I think the way you put it is pretty good, I do. There was a problem to it, but at the company and platoon level, the interest was to make this person competent, not maybe my pal, because he‟s likely to get killed and I don‟t want to lose another friend, but generally, I thought the troops assimilated the new people really, really well, because it was in everyone's best interest, and they all knew they were once that guy. 26:02 So, I don‟t think that was a great detriment, and when the world war got going that‟s how it went, replacements came and went, so I don‟t think that was any great detriment. Interviewer: How long did it take to get acclimated, and to learn enough of the ropes to have a reasonable chance, as good of a chance as anybody else of surviving? Pretty quick--I remember the first night that I was with my platoon sort of staring into the dark, and it wasn‟t totally dark and you can convince yourself that something is moving, and there‟s enough stuff crawling around that there can be sound effects. There were two critters that were most interesting, when you see like a centipede running around by the toilet. 27:03 The centipedes were about this big and they had this brilliant, brown shinny shell and orange legs and huge pinchers. I mean, if a guy got bitten by one of those you would have to medevac him. I got up one morning and there was a little baby on my arm and I flicked it off and “Ow, that hurt”, and I‟m thinking, “Whoa”, it‟s going down my arm and up my arm and I‟m sitting there thinking, “Now, should I be doing something about this?” After about an hour or so, it subsided, but that was an infant, and 41 �so we spent a lot of time hacking those things in half with the trenching tools. Then there were these lizards, and I never saw one, but you would hear them at night. Have other people told you about these lizards? Interviewer: No The “fuck you” lizards? Interviewer: No That‟s what they said, “fuck you, fuck you”, like that and they‟d be in the trees and around. 28:04 You could swear, the first night that you‟re there, that somebody‟s out there yelling at you, you know. The night they gave us twice as many replacements as we had seasoned guys, there was a lot going on and we got into it and we barely made it to a place, by nightfall, to get into a perimeter. We were very disorganized and one of the new guys was spooked and he threw a grenade and it hit a tree and bounced back, so you could think it was actually incoming, and that was really a disconcerting night. I had to just yell and you wouldn‟t normally do that to everyone. To just settle down, this is just—quit throwing hand grenades, you‟ll know it when you see it. 29:02 We were in a place that was in sort of line of sight from Ripcord, and the quad fifties started firing out in the trees and came right into our position, shooting up the trees and everything, so that freaked these poor guys out—freaked me out, but I mean, but at least I knew to get down in a hole. We were shot by everything except naval gun fire, I think. You know we were shot by—we took friendly fire from just about everything, because you can‟t control it. We never took a casualty from friendly fire, but it can “pucker” you when that kind of thing happens. You asked me a question and I digressed. 42 �Interviewer: Actually you were doing fine. You get to the end of all this now, and your time of your tour is finished okay, so describe, sort of the departure. 30:00 Well, while I was in Vietnam I said to myself, “I‟ve got almost three years left of my commitment”, and by then I was bitter enough that I knew, “I‟m not going to do this for a career”, and in fact, the only thing I can think of worse than the army in Vietnam would be the army at Fort Benning, the infantry I mean. So, I said, “What is the wimpiest thing that the army‟s got? Ah, the Adjutant General Corps.”. They put out the post newspaper, they lead tours, so I wrote a letter to the branch and I requested a branch transfer, and they sent it back and they said, “Sorry son you don‟t have any applicable experience”, and I said, “Well, of course I don‟t”, but, I thought, “Okay, the Transportation Corps., even better, because they actually do something”. 31:00 So, I wrote to them and they said, “Welcome to the Transportation Corps”, so when I got back and took a little leave, then branch transferred the Transportation Corps. , so I went down to this little pastoral post in southern Virginia, home of the Transportation Corps. To the officer advance course and I got my Vietnam stuff and my Ranger tab and my 101st patch and nobody messed with me, because they were pretty well—guys in the Transportation Corps., not that they didn‟t run risks, but most didn‟t, and so, you just stay away from---you give berth to a guy who clearly had combat experience, so it was sort of like a protective shield that I had. From that course I was assigned to a place in D.C. It was the worldwide headquarters of transportation for the military. 32:06 It was run by Civilians from WWII, and they did not want the military—they way outnumbered us, and they did not want us messing with their systems. Interviewer: So, what did you do? 43 �Nothing Interviewer: You were just decoration? Yes, just hung out in a room with other desks and career civil servants. One night one of these civil servants—these trade magazines would go around with a buck slip on it and you‟re supposed to acknowledge that you looked at it and I looked at him toward the end of the business day and he took one of these magazines and stuck it in the center drawer, and he looked up and I was looking at him and he said, “Just so I‟ll have something to do tomorrow”, so basically we went for coffee and went to lunch. I was under the wing of a retired Air Force Colonel, who was one of these functionaries who showed me D.C. 33:04 I wore civilian clothes and one day a week I would wear my uniform. Interviewer: How long did you do that? A year and a half Interviewer: Did that finish out your time in the service then? Yeah Interviewer: Did your wife come and live with you then, in that area? Yes, and, you know, the aftermath of all of it is interesting, to me I think, because my wife---by then we‟d moved from D.C. to New York, and we were both hired by IBM at the same time, the first time a man and a woman cohabitated at an IBM training facility, and our managers had to get involved to make it happen. She knew I was—and I live today, I believe, because she knew that I was a different person, because I‟d known her almost all my life, and she began to question me, and I was having nightmares and that sort of thing and in the middle of the night she made me tell her. 34:03 She made me tell her the story and that‟s a first step in the whole process. There came a time when I 44 �met a fellow named Bobby Muller. Have you ever heard of Bobby? Bobby and Kerry and those guys were Vietnam veterans against the war, and Bobby decided to work inside the system and he founded the Vietnam Veterans of America. He‟s the guy who led it to the point of federal charter status. At this time he‟s in lower Manhattan, in an office full of boxes of junk, and a guy I knew said, “You ought to go and talk to this guy”, so I dropped in on him one day and he---interesting man, in a wheelchair. He was in the ward that was featured in a cover article in Life magazine in the Bronx VA Hospital with Ron Kovic and the dripping pipes and the rats and all that stuff, the spinal cord ward 35:06 Bobby—tremendous energy, and he gave me this piece of paper with these lists of behaviors on it, and he told me about guys he knows wearing pieces of their uniform and talking like they‟re in Vietnam. I went home and said to my wire, “Man, I talked to this guy today and he was telling me about these guys he knows—wow”, and I gave her the piece of paper and she looked at it and she said, „Well, which one of these aren‟t you?” I said, “Give me that”, “No”, “Yes”, “Well, maybe you got a point there”. Interviewer: Were you getting any kind of, sort of, support from the military? Were they offering counseling or anything like that, or was it more like everything will be fine, you’re back now? No, I mean they figured that and you know, I don‟t want to blame, I blamed at the time. I was angry and I was alienated, but when you look back at it you can look at a continuum. 36:04 I know Native Americans when there were societies of Native Americans that when warriors went out and engaged in combat, they weren‟t allowed back in the village until they went through a process. You take the Civil War—a person who could not go forward on the battle field was called a coward, and by WWI we had a more elaborate 45 �theory of “shell shock”, pressure and all, and no matter how you cut it, when a guy can‟t go forward it‟s as though he‟s been shot. WWII we had a term, phycology had occurred between WWI and WWII and we had the term “combat fatigue” by Korea they came up with that point system, which worked pretty well in Korea to keep psychological casualties off the battle field. 37:01 By Vietnam they had “DEROS”, date of estimated rotation from overseas, which worked. The day you got there you knew the day you were going to leave, so all you had to do is just contain yourself, and it really did keep psychological casualties off the battle field. Interviewer: You knew it would be limited and it wasn’t indefinite, so in that sense, perhaps the whole rotation system made a certain amount of sense. A tremendous amount of sense Interviewer: Better than leaving the same unit in place for as long as it had to be there and you just stayed with that unit, at least you had a chance of getting out. Right---so it did work from that perspective. Interviewer: What kind of job did you take at IBM? Large systems marketing representative Interviewer: How did you wind up with that job? A guy I knew in the army had been hired by IBM and he knew I was thinking about getting out and he called and said, “Why don‟t you come up to New York and I‟ll introduce you to a couple guys”. Interviewer: Did you know anything about computers at that point? Yeah, I knew—actually ours was an applied engineering degree and we were working with computers. 38:03 I never was fascinated by them, but I was--- 46 �Interviewer: You had enough familiarity, or whatever, and enough training that you could go in there and understand, basically, what you were doing? Really, they didn‟t want you to know too much, they wanted to teach you what they wanted you to know, so there was a lot of training, both technical and marketing. We figured, if this isn‟t a life career, at least it‟s a great segue from nine years in the army, back into the world. Interviewer: Did you stay with that or did you move on to something else? Four years I stayed there, and that was when I was really discovering that I had a lot of unresolved conflict and I had this point of view, I had made this decision, I have problems with authority, so I never butted heads with people, but I worked around them. I‟d be sitting in a meeting talking to people, you know, sitting in a business meeting looking at a point about halfway between me and the other guy, reworking, “gosh, if I‟d only done it this way”, and that kind of thing. 39:10 Having startle response—I was walking down the street one day with my wife and her girlfriend and a sound went off and I was on the ground. Our friend thought it was funny, and it was, but that sort of thing stays with you and just this whole reworking, reworking, and then becoming alienated, you know, I was really disgusted with the government trying to give-- the state that I was from was paying a bonus and I tried to turn it down and they hounded me so much that I took the money, it was three hundred dollars, or something like that. The IBM years were great, it was a wonderful company, and they treated us very, very well. 40:04 I learned a tremendous amount, but I just wasn‟t engaged in it. Interviewer: Incidentally, where were you actually working for them? In Manhattan 47 �Interviewer: So you decide you need to move on to something else at that point? So, what do you go onto from there? Well, I‟d gotten myself into therapy during this time, and I decided I wanted to be a „shrink”. So, I got enrolled at Columbia in a graduate program for counseling, and I had been working out with a guy who owned—a kind of remarkable guy who kind of invented personal training and his gym was the gym to the stars, you know, Arthur Ashe, Billie Jean King and guys from the Giants and the Jets would rehab there. 41:07 Well, I had been a paying customer and I said, “I‟m quitting IBM and I can‟t afford it anymore”, and he said, “Well, why don‟t you work here?” So, that became what I was really doing, was working half a day for him while I pretended to go to graduate school, because I realized fairly early on I was working on my own case. Then my wife and I decided, “Let‟s get out of New York”, and we sold this condominium that we owned in the suburbs, we had long since been living in the city, and went on a trip to California. While we were out there, we were in the San Francisco area, we saw a lot of information going on about people reaching out to veterans, and we said, “What the heck, let‟s move out there”. So, we went back to New York, put some furniture in storage, put a bunch of book in boxes, went out to JFK and moved. 42:08 We got a futon and rented a houseboat in Sausalito and we said, “Our lives are now about unraveling this post war upset. Interviewer: When was this roughly? 1980 or 1981, and it turns out that San Francisco is just a wildly political place, and so you take the veteran subset and it‟s that way too. In 1967 I remember being at Fort Hood on a training thing and every night, in the officers‟ club, someone kept playing, “If 48 �you‟re going to San Francisco be sure to wear some flowers in your hair”, and I used to think, “San Francisco, “flower power”, all those people, it‟s kind of interesting”. Well, I ended up in a vet center rap group in Haight- Ashbury, so I finally made it; I‟m a “hippie” in San Francisco. 43:04 Because of the people I fell in with, there was a top forty radio station in San Francisco that had run afoul with the FCC and had to do community service, and they picked veterans. So, I get trotted up and I‟m working for minimum wage for this radio station, to put on an event at Fort Mason in San Francisco, which is a port through which GI‟s shipped out and back in WWII and Korea. Now a bunch of public interest groups—so we did this big event down there. It was a job fair, music, art, “Country Joe McDonald” lived in Berkley and he was a great supporter of veterans, and he was on an aircraft carrier off Vietnam. I then segued from that job to a job in the Reagan Administration, which wanted to do away with as much of the VA as possible. 44:07 Their theory was, “Find veterans out here in the world who are succeeding and get them to do volunteer efforts and support to those who aren‟t doing so well”. I was good for that because I‟m a West Point graduate, verbal, IBM trained, I got into a lot of corporate environments out there, crazy guys, functioning at a very high level, so this was the misapprehension that I think the whole program had. You‟re either okay, or you‟re drooling in your socks, and there is this entire continuum, and plenty of people who are functioning at a very high level who aren‟t okay at all, so I got a lot out of talking to these people and sort of opening them to the idea, principle idea, that this kind of upset is predictable and normal and transcend able. 45:10 There is a way through it, but it doesn‟t just happen with time. Witness the WWII veterans who just came bilging out in horrific numbers when “Saving Private Ryan” hit the theaters. They had been 49 �sitting on this for so long and no one wanted to hear it, that‟s the difference, nothing. This experience does this to a sane person, the crazy people don‟t experience it, but you‟ve got to work your way through it. The guy who introduced me to Bobby Muller was a psychologist; he had worked with a lot of veterans. He had a theory that I subscribe to, and I‟ve handed this article out to a lot of people, and that is—you‟ve got the diagnosis, diagnostic manual that describes post-traumatic stress disorder as people who cannot function. 46:06 Then you‟ve got the rest of us who have unresolved conflict, and it affects intimacy, the ability to get along in the world, but not at the level of can‟t function and most of us are in that category. The way to transcend it, the best way, the model, is to be among others, who shared the experience, communicate about it, and take on some constructive activity. That‟s where all these memorials came from, I believe and it was a very healthy thing. I wasn‟t so focused on tangible things; I was focused on just alerting people to this. I felt my job was to tell them what this is and that something can be done about it, and hope that they would take the direction. My territory was northern California; I saw a lot of places, a lot of people, and a lot of circumstances. 47:08 It never really amounted to much programmatically in helping people, but it did awaken a fair number of people. One guy told me he didn‟t kill himself because I‟d told him how to predict, and this guy was—he taught phycology at the college level. So, no one ever presented it to anyone in this way. They‟re still not doing it properly I believe, but at least they tell people when they‟re getting out now that this could occur, but when you‟re young and you‟re tough somebody‟s got to come after you to get you reprogrammed, so to speak, so o it‟s a long, long process. My next job, when that was drying up, my wife and I looked and we weren‟t finished yet. 48:02 We saw there was 50 �an opening in Seattle for the director of what was The Seattle Veterans Action Center, and it was one of the really old line, store front, counseling centers, national, Urban League and National Council of Mayors, and it was the one thing we set out to do, was to get that job, and we got it, so we moved to Seattle. I managed that place, and principally what I did, was I publicized it. We had a lot of interesting—it brought a lot of attention to it, and I learned a tremendous amount. The first thing I was in, with the radio station, they put on a concert for us, Bill Graham, remember Bill Graham? So, they had a great relationship with Bill Graham and he did an evening at the Moscone Center to benefit our little 501C3. 49:00 Jefferson Starship, Grateful Dead, Santana, Boz Scaggs, and Joe McDonald, so we walked out of there with 200,000.00 that night, so some of that was back pay that I was owed, but most of it went to support other grass roots organizations, that was our purpose, to support these grass roots organizations. I‟m bouncing, but when I was in that center, this rap group, the guy who was assigned to be our facilitator, was a guy who‟d had his arm shot off and reconnected, and on a prior occasion had been the sole survivor of his unit. This guy was not facilitator material, he was group member material, and I didn‟t know I was thrown in with these guys who were very, sort of, charged. Nobody wanted to tell them what to do or anything and I didn‟t know that. 50:03 I‟m in the group, I like these guys, but nobody would touch us, so we, one night, said, “Mike, we‟ve decided you‟re not the facilitator anymore, you‟re in the group”, so we became this leaderless group sitting around talking, smoking dope, in the rap center. What I began to realize was, what people do, as they tell the story over, and over, and over again, it almost never varies. It never gets on to, “This is all my nickel analysis”, it never gets on to, “What decisions did you make about yourself as a result? Like, my two 51 �best friends died, so I‟ll never love, because when I do they‟re taken away from me”. No wonder people come back from these wars and can‟t form an intimate relationship, or don‟t get close to their kids, or go down in the basement at night, whatever it is they do. 51:05 In my case, I think I have trouble with authority, that‟s the decision I made about myself, so if you don‟t get on to expression in that level and get onto yourself, you don‟t get through it. That‟s where that model of, at least take something on, and seems to aid. One of the guys in the group actually had been in my unit a year prior, at Hamburger Hill. He was a buck sergeant and he was the son of a Colonel. He basically, and more or less said, he‟s committed to a life of misery as a gesture to those who didn‟t survive. I said, “You know, Brian that just doesn‟t make sense. You would have wanted the guys to survive so they could be miserable?” 52:07 I said, “I like the idea that I would lead the life I would have wished for them, because I want out of this, because I can‟t stand what this is doing to me”, and he was a little offended at that. I never knew what became of Brian, but I hope he surmounted it, but generating this point of view is really what worked for me and my wife, and so there did come a time when we felt like we were really on top of that, and of course, we had gone flat broke during this whole process, so we decided to move back to Michigan and start a whole different phase of our lives. I really do think, and I credit my wife mostly, but I really do think, for me, this is now the best thing that ever happened to me. 53:06 Interviewer: So, what are you doing now? I‟m in the real estate sales business. Interviewer: It’s not the best time to be in that right now. 52 �Oh no, but I had some good years and I will again, but you know, and I say what I do is, “I listen to wealthy people complain about their money”, because they think that really matters, and to some extent I sort of float like a bug on the surface of a consumer economy, because it all looks a little bit like a joke to me, but you know, I do an honest professional job. I just think drawing lines on the earth, and saying I own it, is a little bit comical. Interviewer: One of the standard questions in doing this sort of interview, and you get around to the close, is to ask veterans something along the lines of—How do you think your time in the service affected you as a person, or whatever, and a lot of the WWII vets and things like that, that often hasn’t necessarily been touched on. 54:08 It seems to me much of the course of this interview had pretty answered much of that question. If you were going to try to, sort of pull it together and say, overall what effect did that whole military experience have on you, or how would you characterize it, do you have a way of saying that, or expressing it? Well, it made me who I am, and I‟m happy with who I am. If I had not gone to West Point—when I showed up I was seventeen, I turned eighteen and they started beating my mother‟s door down, “Where is this guy? Why isn‟t he down here registering for the draft?” she said, “He‟s in the army”, “Oh bologna”, well that went on for a while until they settled that, so looking back on it, I figure I would have taken my brother's job at the windshield wiper factory and then been drafted. 55:03 Now, I could type like a demon, so I probably would have been one of these stories—about ready to ship out and they said, “Can anybody type?” But, I might have been a snuffy private and wiped out early on in Vietnam, so I feel like the army saved me, oddly enough, and I got to be around 53 �remarkable people and learned a tremendous amount from the people I was around, so I look back very fondly on the whole experience. If I hadn‟t been drafted, if I could have gone to Indiana University, I would have spent the first semester trying to get into a fraternity, the second semester on probation, and then been drafted. Instead, they locked me in my room and made me study. So, generally speaking, the army experience I value tremendously and I feel sorry for people who don‟t have something like it, and which is why I feel strongly about a national service sort of component, because most people got a tremendous amount out of it. 56:10 You get out there, they cut all your hair off, put you all in the same outfit, and now, who are you? Better said, you start taking everyone else for who they are and not what they look like, it‟s a wonderful experience, so I feel really lucky that it all went the way it did, even though it was really painful for a fair number of years there. Interviewer: Well thank you for coming in and taking the time to talk to us. Thank you, I‟m glad to yak. 54 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WilcoxJ Title A name given to the resource Wilcox, Jeffrey (Interview transcript and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Wilcox, Jeffrey Description An account of the resource Jeffrey Wilcox was born in New York and moved to Gary, Indiana as a youth. After high school, he attended West Point, and graduated in 1968. He was then assigned to an Army unit that was stationed in Berlin. He stayed there for a year, and was then shipped off to Vietnam. He joined the 101st Airborne Division, and operated for some time in the Ripcord Fire Support base. There, he frequently encountered the enemy, getting a minor wound in the process. After Vietnam, he spent a year and a half in the Transport Corps in Washington DC. After his time in the service, he worked for various different veterans support and advocacy groups on the west coast. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-07-31 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ab2aae6c0d4a5b854d13b5dfddcca8bc.jpg 2538cd872420bd993612769157443672 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert H. Merrill photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1909/1950 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-222 Description An account of the resource Photographs, negatives, and lantern slides digitized from the papers of engineer and archaeologist Robert H. Merrill. A Grand Rapids native, Merrill held an accomplished career as a civil engineer. He founded the company Spooner & Merrill, which held offices in Grand Rapids and Chicago. From 1919-1921, Merrill lived in China, working as Assistant Principal Engineer on a reconstruction of the Grand Canal - the oldest and longest canal system in the world. Merrill became fascinated by archaeology, and among other projects, he traveled to the Uxmal Pyramids in Yucatan, Mexico, with a research expedition from Tulane University. Merrill's photo collection includes images of his travels and projects, friends and family. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Merrill_LS00207 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource circa 1930 Title A name given to the resource Wild boar Altamira Description An account of the resource Black and white lantern slide of a Paleolithic drawing of a wild boar from Altamira. Subject The topic of the resource Lantern slides Drawings Cave paintings Archaeology Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0ec922742074497e145606217d229882.jpg 5bccdf3274e98ad2026f83f83069dd9f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Decorated Publishers' Bindings Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Pictorial bindings Description An account of the resource From the early 1870s to roughly 1930, many publishers issued their commercial book covers with a remarkable variety of graphic designs and illustrations. This sixty-year period saw many artists and designers contributing to this art form. While some can be identified from their style or initials, others remain unknown. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Michigan Novels Collection Regional Historical Collection Lincoln and the Civil War Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-08-30 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>, <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-01 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source Seidman Rare Books. QL706.2 .S38 1910 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-01_Bindings0185 Title A name given to the resource Wilderness Babies Description An account of the resource Binding of Wilderness Babies, by Julia Augusta Schwartz, published by Little, Brown, and Company, 1910. Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Pictorial bindings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1910 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8a7395a519d2949f50f4614c8466b8ee.jpg 31e4f4316ecba940dc1e29c5490adcb3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WilfordAnne Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Wilford, Anne Description An account of the resource Anne Wilford Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/184cd46bad22fec1df4e15199f10809e.pdf f058585efb09a76f2a5f5976b8e165aa PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Wilfredo and Maria Aviles Interviewers: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 9/27/2018 Runtime: 01:13:03 Biography and Description Wilfredo Aviles was Born in Manati, Puerto Rico. He arrived in the US on July 1955 to Chicago, IL at Clark and Division Streets or La Clark Neighborhood. His Parents were Angelina Tirado Aviles & Sixto Aviles, and he has three siblings. He lived in old town/Lincoln Park for about 10 years, then moved to the Lake View area. His work experience included the U.S. Army, and retail in the family owned business, The Gaslight Men's Shop, and eventually became the owner (43 years). He retired in 2008. Wilfredo was also a civic leader. He was the first Latino President of Erie Family Health Center Board (2 years); Treasurer of the Puerto Rican Parade committee (5 years); Puerto Rican Chamber of CommerceTreasurer (5 years); and the Chicago Avenue Business Association-President (5 years). He was a member of the Caballeros de San Juan. During his youth he belonged to one of the many sports clubs which often played baseball in Lincoln Park. A few times members of his group joined with other Puerto Rican youth to protect themselves from roving white ethnic gangs which had existed in Lincoln Park previous to Puerto Ricans arriving there. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: So this is just a test. If you can give me your name, and the date you were born and where you were born? Go ahead. WILFREDO AVILES: JJ: Wilfredo Aviles. April 7, 1945. Thank you. And -- MARIA AVILES: And where were -- JJ: -- where were you born? WA: Manati, Puerto Rico. JJ: Manati? WA: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. Let me just see something. (break in audio) JJ: And the day you were born. Go ahead. WA: In English? JJ: In Spanish, English, whatever. WA: Well, I’ll say it, you know -- my name is Wilfredo Aviles. I was born in Manati, Puerto Rico, April 7, 1945. JJ: Okay, Wilfredo, you look at me. And who are your parents? WA: My parents? Sixto Aviles and Angelina Tirado. JJ: [00:01:00] Tirado? WA: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. And how about your brothers and sisters? 1 �WA: No sisters. I have two other brothers besides me, and -- JJ: And their names? WA: [Ruben?] Aviles and Sixto Aviles, Jr. JJ: Okay. And did they come to Chicago too at the same time you came? WA: No. I came to Chicago like six months before they did. JJ: When did you come to Chicago? WA: July of 1954. JJ: July of 1954? Okay. So can you kinda describe what was going on? How old were you when you came? WA: Eight; I was gonna be nine. Actually, yeah, eight. JJ: And what was going on in Puerto Rico then? WA: Actually, I was nine -- JJ: Oh, nine? Okay. WA: -- I meant to say. Yeah, nine, because 54 and 45 [00:02:00] is nine. JJ: Okay. And can you tell me about something in Puerto Rico at the time that you guys could come in? WA: In Puerto Rico? I was in school. I went to grammar school there for up to third grade. And my parents migrated to Chicago, and they sent for me. I came down here, and we lived on Division and Clark. JJ: Division and Clark? WA: Yep, Division and Clark. And -- JJ: Do you know in what house, or...? 2 �WA: Well, we lived at 1320 North Clark across the street from the Windsor Theatre in those days. And then from there, we moved to 1154 North Clark a little bit south of Division Street. JJ: So the Windsor Theatre was, you said, across the street. WA: Right from where I lived, yeah. JJ: What street was that about? WA: Clark Street. JJ: Okay, Clark. [00:03:00] But I thought they just had the Newberry Theater, and then they had the Stranahan -- WA: No, that was out by Chicago Avenue. JJ: Oh, that was -- WA: That was south, yeah. JJ: Okay. But the Windsor was more up north? WA: Just North of Division Street, yeah. JJ: Oh, was it? WA: In 1300 block -- JJ: That was the Windsor Theatre? WA: -- of Clark Street. Windsor, yes. JJ: Okay. And so did you go to that theater, or...? WA: Actually, I went more to the Newberry. (laughs) JJ: Oh, the Newberry instead of at -- WA: I’m sure that I went across the street too, but Newberry was the one that was -- JJ: Better than -- 3 �WA: -- by the post office. JJ: Okay. There was a post office there? WA: Yeah, right next to it. JJ: And so you were eight or nine years old. What was school like in Puerto Rico? Do you remember that, or...? WA: Well, you learn a little English. You learn about pencil, pen, chicken, (laughter) hen -- JJ: Hen, right. WA: -- you know, stuff like that, so you studied a little bit of English. [00:04:00] But I didn’t speak hardly any English when I came, I mean, at all, you know. But then on the other hand, you pick up fast because, you know, you’re around people all the time, and you gotta learn the lingo. And I did, you know? JJ: Okay. And so they told you you had to come over here, but you wanted to come ’cause your parents are here. WA: Sure, yeah. I mean, the -- JJ: You weren’t afraid or anything? WA: Nope. JJ: And -- WA: Never been afraid. (laughs) JJ: Okay. So you came, and then you grew up in this place. WA: I grew up. I went to William B. Ogden School on Oak Street between Dearborn and State, which is a very, you know, highly upper -- JJ: Upper class area. 4 �WA: -- class area, yeah. JJ: So it was a good school? WA: Oh, yeah. JJ: And did you feel important [00:05:00] because it’s upper class? WA: Well, I can’t complain about how fast I learned. I mean, I learned a lot of things, you know. We didn’t have, per se, big Latino students at that time. It was very few. JJ: Oh, they didn’t have that many? WA: Very few, yes. JJ: In ’54? WA: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. But the neighborhood -- there was some Latinos, no, or...? WA: Not around there. JJ: Not around Oakland? WA: They were mainly, like I said, you know, by Division. Most people lived in the South Side of Chicago at that time, most of the -- JJ: But where did they live? WA: -- Puerto Ricans and the, you know... JJ: Where did they live? WA: South of Chicago Avenue, you know, and they lived west by the Humboldt Park - JJ: At that time? WA: -- area, you know? 5 �JJ: By -- WA: Yeah, there were a few Latinos in that -- JJ: But they were living at that time? ’Cause there used to be a neighborhood there, no? WA: Yeah, but -- JJ: At Clark or something? Do you know about that? WA: Well, there was a Latino [00:06:00] group, but believe it or not, they were more from my family from Manati. They were by Diversey and Clark Street. JJ: By Diversey and Clark? WA: Yeah. JJ: Oh, from your family. Or was it -- WA: Well, not my family, but friends and some relatives. JJ: By Diversey and Clark, there was a lot of Latinos and Puerto Ricans? Okay. WA: Latinos, yes, at 2835 North Clark. It was a whole Puerto Rican building there. JJ: Twenty-eight -- WA: Everybody was -- yeah, 2830-- JJ: Is that in [Westchester?] too or no? WA: Huh? JJ: Oh, no, that’s on Diversey. WA: Yeah, 2835 North Clark. JJ: And this is 1954? WA: Yep. JJ: (Spanish)? [00:06:32] 6 �WA: (Spanish) [00:06:34] -- to be honest, my uncles, my father’s brothers, and my cousins, you know -- JJ: That’s where they lived? WA: Yeah. JJ: Were there any stores around there? WA: There’s some stores vaguely, I remember, I mean, like Latino stores. The only Latino store that [00:07:00] was on Clark Street was [Mario Rivera?]. JJ: Mario Rivera. I remember that. WA: Okay. Mario Rivera was right across the street also by the Windsor Theatre, the 1300 block on Clark Street. JJ: Because he had -- WA: He had a grocery store. JJ: He had a grocery store. I know he had (Spanish) [00:07:20] on Clark. Do you remember that one? WA: I remember Spanish American food. JJ: His Spanish American food, yeah. I remember when he [brought it?] on the radio one time. WA: Yeah, that was -- JJ: What radio station was that? Do you remember, or...? WA: In those days? JJ: Is it -- WA: Man, I don’t know. Pelencho, maybe? JJ: Pelencho or Chapa, all that -- 7 �WA: Pelencho, yeah. JJ: Pelencho. WA: And then (Spanish) [00:07:42] also was a local duo that -- Raul Cardona was another radio announcer, you know, so there was not a lot. And there were a [00:08:00] lot of Hispanics where my grandmother used to live and my aunts. They’re from -- JJ: They lived where, on Diversey? WA: No, they lived on Fifth Avenue by Harrison Street in the South Side up there. JJ: Oh, on the west side. WA: West, yes. JJ: Or Southwest. WA: Southwest, yep. They had -- JJ: Okay. That’s where your grandmother lived? WA: Yeah, there were Latinos around there too. JJ: So at Madison, some of them had -- WA: Yeah, south of Madison. JJ: Yeah, right around there? WA: Yeah. Now, you got the Eisenhower running through 290. (laughs) JJ: Right. At that time -- WA: In that time, the -- JJ: So were you there, do you remember, before the Eisenhower was built? WA: No, it wasn’t built yet when -- JJ: Oh, it wasn’t built yet. 8 �WA: -- I was here before, yeah. JJ: So where the Eisenhower was, there were Puerto Ricans? WA: Well, there was a highway there now, but I don’t remember seeing -- JJ: But Harrison was there? WA: Yeah, the streets were -- JJ: And your grandmother was there? WA: Yeah, Fifth Avenue was my grandmother -- JJ: [00:09:00] Did you say your grandmother’s name? Did you give me her name yet or no? WA: I didn’t give you my grandmother’s name. JJ: Can we get her name? It’s up to you. WA: It’s from my mother’s side. Actually, you know, it was a stepmother, so that was the grandmother that I’m talking about. But my grandmother from my father’s side -- [Agracia Ramon?]. JJ: Agracia Ramon, okay. So both of your brothers are here now too, right, at the same time? WA: Ruben and Sixto? They came down, yeah. JJ: In ’54? WA: No, they came in ’55. JJ: Fifty-five? WA: Yeah. JJ: Was there anyone here before ’55 from the family? WA: From my family? 9 �JJ: Yeah. WA: No, just -- JJ: They all came in ’55? WA: No. Fifty-four was my father, and then a couple of months later, I came. JJ: Okay. And your father came for what reason? WA: Looking for a better [00:10:00] way of living; a better life for themselves and for us both. I’m glad that I came to United States. (laughs) JJ: Mm-hmm. So what do you remember by the Windsor, growing up there? WA: Oh, not much ’cause we only spent about -- I want to say in ’57, we moved to 1308 North Cleveland, okay? And Cabrini Green was not there yet. This is before Cabrini Green was built on Division Street by the projects there, what they used to call them. And we lived a couple of blocks north of there on Cleveland Avenue. JJ: Who lived there at that time? WA: (Spanish). [00:10:50] JJ: (Spanish)? [00:10:51] WA: Yeah, and two Spanish families. You remember Nestor Hernandez? JJ: Yeah, I know Nestor. WA: Nestor was across [00:11:00] the street from me. He lived at 1309; I lived 1308. That’s how it was, and then also Hector Molina. JJ: Oh, you knew Hector Molina? WA: Yeah, tall guy. JJ: That’s a tall guy. 10 �WA: They lived on Evergreen. JJ: (Spanish). [00:11:17] WA: Yeah, on Evergreen, so that’s our neighborhood in the ’57 era. And that one -- JJ: So any problems with the Italians? WA: No, we’re family. Nobody came and messed around, and plus the Italians had the dogs and everything. (laughter) Nobody came to mess around there. People there in those days -- everybody knew each other. JJ: [Like a family?]. WA: Everybody sat outside. It didn’t matter; Puerto Rican, Italian, whatever. But Spanish families were the first ones in there. And then on North Avenue and Cleveland, my (Spanish) [00:11:57], Sebastian [Ramiri?] -- JJ: [00:12:00] Oh, Sebastian. WA: [Sebby?] lived on North Avenue in there with his parents in the house and -- JJ: So that’s the one that used to box? WA: Yeah, he used to box. JJ: So he boxed for -- was it CYO, or...? WA: CYO, yeah. JJ: And were they doing any work in the neighborhood, or...? WA: No. I mean -- JJ: I mean, I didn’t -- WA: -- we played ball. We had teams, YMCA. We went to [Action?] YMCA. That’s where we belonged when we did our stuff, and we played baseball, mainly, you know, softball. And it was -- 11 �JJ: So you had a team? WA: Yeah. JJ: What was the name of your team? WA: Well, we were, at first, the Flaming Arrows. JJ: Okay. You were in the Flaming Arrows, huh? WA: Yep, the Flaming Arrows. The best team they had (laughter) because I made sure they practiced and -- JJ: You mean you were the coach for -- WA: I was the captain of the team, yeah, and I -- JJ: So did you get voted in? [00:13:00] How’d you get that? WA: No. I was a little bit more knowledgeable in that area than other people and -- JJ: In the sports thing? WA: Mm-hmm. JJ: And so you became the captain of the Flaming Arrows. And Sebastian was part of that team? WA: No, Sebastian was with the -- actually, he hung out more with the Italians, believe it or not. JJ: Oh, he did? WA: Yeah, he was more with the Italian guys, you know. The Latinos, most of us, were -- well, Frank was Italian, Frank [Regio?]. JJ: Frank Regio, yeah. [I know him?]. WA: Yeah, but you know, he’d speak Spanish like Puerto Rican and he spoke Italian too, you know. And he lived across the street from me too. Actually, Nestor and 12 �him lived in the same building, so that’s how it was on Cleveland. And then in January of ’61, I graduated [00:14:00] from grammar school, eighth grade, and went to George Manierre. JJ: Oh, you went to Manierre. WA: After Ogden, I went to George Manierre School, yeah. And then from there, I graduated -- JJ: What was Manierre like at that time? WA: It was mixed. There were a lot of Latinos ’cause I remember we used to get people that lived a little bit south of us from Division Street and around Hill Street, I think it was; the little street on the subway, I think. And the church we went to was St. Joseph, I think it is. JJ: St. Joseph? WA: The one right on the corner almost by -- this is the church that we used to go to, most of us. JJ: So was there a thing for Puerto Ricans at St. Joseph, or...? WA: They had Spanish masses. JJ: There at that time? WA: Yeah, they had Spanish masses in those days, and we went there. We -- JJ: Any activities for Spanish people? WA: Well, I think most people kept to themselves more than anything, to be honest, about it even though they knew each other. And [00:15:00] when they met, and there was some kind of a dance or something, everybody would know about it or 13 �something, you know. But one thing about it is friends. There were no gangs laying around, I mean, at least that we didn’t know. JJ: [Moving to the?] gangs later -- but you said everybody stayed to the -- WA: Yeah, one thing about my neighborhood -- it was a clean neighborhood. It was no garbage laying around. People were clean. That’s the way it was. JJ: So everybody took care of their own apartment and their own houses. WA: Yep, everybody took care of it. JJ: And everybody got along. You said they hung out on the porches. WA: We did have block parties, you know, for the block that we were in, you know, but that was, you know, just for the block party. And we used to go to festivities at Cabrini Green when, you know, the church and all the staff had festivities up there, [00:16:00] so... JJ: So Cabrini Green was all Black at that time, or...? WA: No, it had a lot of Latinos in there too. [Migos?] Claudio lived there with his whole family. JJ: Oh, Migos Claudio [lived there?]? WA: Jose [Reyes?] lived there with his family. JJ: Toothpick? (laughs) WA: Toothpick’s brother, Jose, yeah. Well, Toothpick too because Toothpick was there. They all lived together, and the two sisters. They all lived in Cabrini Green. A lot of Puerto Ricans lived in Cabrini Green. MA: A lot of [Puerto Ricans too?]. JJ: A lot of Puerto Ricans lived in Cabrini Green? 14 �WA: Yes. JJ: And this was in what year? WA: Oh, now, we went to the -- JJ: And what do you -- WA: Fifty-seven -- JJ: Fifty-seven. WA: -- to the ’60s, more or less. JJ: When a lot of Puerto Ricans were living in Cabrini Green? WA: Oh, yes. JJ: But what part of Cabrini, by Division? WA: By Division, yeah -- JJ: The white projects? WA: -- and Orleans. JJ: They called it the white projects or something like that? WA: I don’t know if they called it the white projects, but -- JJ: Okay, Division and Orleans. I don’t want to put words in your, you know... WA: Well, because we didn’t call it the [00:17:00] white -- JJ: Okay, I asked that -- WA: I just know that it was Cabrini Green, and it was made for people that were underserved a little bit, you know, families that didn’t make enough money. And they had to go to those places and get an apartment that they didn’t have to pay as much. JJ: And then -- 15 �WA: I graduated from Walter High School in January of 1961. JJ: But you went to Manierre. To eighth grade, or...? WA: To eighth grade, yeah. I was about in fifth or sixth grade when I went to Manierre. JJ: And so you said Manierre was okay, and it was mixed? WA: Yeah, it was mixed. JJ: No fighting, none of that at all? WA: It was the Italian -- JJ: No gangs, or...? WA: That’s the thing. In the old days when we’d fight, you know, you did something to me -- if I’d beat you up, we’d shake hands, and it was over. There was no holding any grudges. There was no grudges at all, you know, and [00:18:00] nobody got into the fight. It was just you and whoever the guy was, and I grew up like that. We didn’t have 10 guys jumping on one guy. No, that came later on, but -- JJ: So that was respectful -- WA: Yeah, it was a handshake after the fight. JJ: And it was just people [getting up to something?]? WA: Yeah, that’s the way it was. JJ: Okay. So what else do you remember about Manierre? WA: No, that’s about it. A couple of girls had fights, you know. JJ: That’s the -- 16 �WA: But here, again, it’s one-on-one. It’s no bunch of people fighting, you know, jumping in. JJ: A couple of girls, one-on-one, were fighting over [you?]? WA: Yep. They’d take off their bras, and some of them -- JJ: Oh, the girls would fight each other. WA: Yeah, and the guys just enjoyed the fight. We would wait and watch. [00:19:00] (laughter) Those days were not like today. You didn’t have people coming with a knife or a gun. None of that stuff existed, you know? The worst thing you ever saw was somebody took a bat, and that’s the worst weapon anybody ever did in those days, you know, so... JJ: I know that here, we were a little different, but I always know you guys were more into sports, you said, as opposed to -- WA: Yeah, we were about sports. Actually, at the Action YMCA, we had basketball. We had dodgeball. We had the baseball teams, you know, and we competed with each other, you know. But everything was done -- you know, even if you push me or something, I’ll push you back, and that’s [00:20:00] it, you know? And there was no, “Yo, I’m gonna beat you up,” or something. JJ: But it got a little rough around the edges, though, sometimes. WA: Oh, yeah, if it was something rough. JJ: Because, I mean, in some neighborhoods, people don’t even push each other. WA: No, they didn’t. JJ: So it was a little -- was it getting rough? When did it start turning rough? 17 �WA: Not during the grammar school days. Grammar school was not rough. It started from the high school area. JJ: In the high school era? WA: When you got into high school, then you had Walter, for instance, you know, which is Lincoln Park West right now. But in those days, we were known as the school that had every nationality you can think of. I mean, you name the nationality, we had it. JJ: At Walter? WA: Yeah. [00:21:00] You know, but the good thing about the Latinos -- we were the neutral group. And the reason we were neutral is because the whites didn’t like the Black, and the Blacks didn’t like the whites, and we like everybody. (laughter) So if they had a fight or something, they’d run away -- let’s say we’re gonna fight the Blacks. Okay, the whites will come. If we’re gonna fight the whites, the Blacks will come and help us, you know? But like I said, again, you didn’t have the guns or anything like that. That’s the good thing about it. And usually, it used to be -- JJ: And what did they fight about, the Blacks and the whites? WA: Nothing, because people are like that, I guess. You know, some people don’t like Black, and some people don’t like white. And some people don’t like Latinos, so... JJ: So some people didn’t like each other because of -- WA: Their race, maybe. JJ: Their race? 18 �WA: Yeah. Mainly, it was the race issue, but [00:22:00] I don’t know. I guess -- JJ: But that’s why they fought? They didn’t fight over girls or anything like that, or...? WA: Not to my knowledge. Did they fight over girls? Sorry, my -- JJ: About race, or...? WA: Yeah, I think somebody had, you know, some -- JJ: So can you give me an example of when they said something about race? Can you talk about -- WA: A Black person can call another Black person a nigger, but a white person cannot call a Black person a nigger, you know, so they would say that. Or the Italians were dagos, so they didn’t like being called dagos. You know, that's the - JJ: So people used words like dago and spic -- WA: Yeah, spic -- JJ: -- and stuff like that? WA: Yeah, stuff like that. Yeah, that was -- JJ: And they would fight? WA: Yeah, ’cause if I’m Puerto Rican and you’re Puerto Rican, and I call you spic, well, you’re not gonna do nothing. But see, if a white person calls you a spic, or a Black guy, you know, you might wanna [00:23:00] do something about it. JJ: So was there any certain parts of the neighborhood you couldn’t go to? WA: Not in my time. JJ: No? WA: We could go anywhere. 19 �JJ: Was there any certain parts of the neighborhood that you had fights in? WA: No, because -- JJ: And let me give you a good example. At North Avenue Beach, we had a baseball game -- WA: There was a baseball game that we had, and we played baseball in Lincoln Park. And somebody came in. We had these white guys come in, and they took us out of our diamond. We were already there first. At that time, you had no appointments. If the diamond’s empty, you -- and we used to practice. We had both teams, and we would practice. And the only experience I ever had was these white guys, which were already adults, most of them, college kids or something. You know, we were still high school, a little smaller, but we were not afraid either. [00:24:00] So, you know, they came in, and Darwin Fuentes, another (Spanish) [00:24:05] of mine -- I don’t know if you know Darwin. JJ: Oh, Darwin. WA: Yeah, he has a shop -- JJ: He was a business guy. WA: He had a -- JJ: He had a business. WA: -- clothing store on Broadway, yeah. JJ: Clothing store on Broadway, uh-huh. WA: And he used to work for Herb’s Men’s Shop on North Avenue and Mohawk, the little, nice store on North Avenue. And he doesn’t keep quiet, so you know, he right away got smart with one of those guys. And we see they're bigger than we 20 �are, so you know, we’re not gonna attack, you know, and get beat up for no reason. So the funny thing is that in those days, we had the Braves baseball team, and these were adults. They were not kids, you know. They had their own kids, you know? And they saw what was happening, and [00:25:00] right away, they told one guy a couple of bad words, and the guy punched him in the face. And he went down, and he got up again and said, “You guys --” he punched him again, and he cut him a little bit. So we grabbed Darwin and pulled him to the side, and said, “Look, leave it alone. You know, they’re bigger than we are, and you know, they want it. Let them have their diamond.” But all the adults were practicing also, the baseball team. They came over, and they started the rumble. Those guys ran across Lakeshore Drive. They’d rather get hit by a car than fight the guy -JJ: Running on Lakeshore Drive? WA: Yeah, right inside Lincoln Park. But they jumped over the fence and over Lakeshore Drive, and that was the only big fight I ever really -- JJ: And then the -- WA: -- participated in that was something like that. But they’re the ones that started it. I mean, we were there already, and we were younger kids. JJ: Now, I thought that you were involved with the Black Eagles. WA: [00:26:00] Well, I wasn’t that involved with the Black Eagles. When [Louis Sias?] used to be the president of the Black Eagles, and the Flaming Arrows broke up when the Paragons came from New York. JJ: Paragons came from New York? 21 �WA: Yeah. JJ: Oh, I didn’t know that. WA: Yeah, they came from New York, and these were wild guys, you know. MA: Don’t mention them. WA: Why? MA: Don’t mention them. WA: So anyway, these guys came, and they started -- you know, they thought they were bad, I guess, you know, being from New York or something, and they brought bad habits with them. And some of the guys -- we broke up and -- JJ: When you say bad habit, what do you mean? WA: The weed. I mean, I personally didn’t -- JJ: Didn’t do -- WA: I didn’t smoke or drink or anything like that. JJ: -- drugs or something like that? WA: Yeah, they -- JJ: I remember that, [when they’d come?], yeah. WA: Yeah, so you know, [00:27:00] they were into the gangs and stuff like that, you know. And so we had broken up the Flaming Arrows, but what happened is that some of the guys went to the Eagles. Some guys went to the Paragons, you know, and that’s how the thing started, so... JJ: But I thought that you had become president for a while of the Black Eagles, no? WA: No. JJ: Oh, never? Okay. 22 �WA: No. I, again, kept, you know, the team, though, the baseball team, ’cause that’s the only time they started winning baseball games. (laughs) I was always the -- JJ: But you were the captain of the -- WA: But I had a voice, and I would, you know, put in my two cents. If I’d see something that wasn’t right, I’d put in my two cents and I’d say, “No, that’s not how things are.” But outside of that, hey, listen, I graduated and thank God I went to the armed forces in ’65. I got drafted. JJ: So tell me about that. Tell me about the armed forces. WA: Well, I got drafted in ’65. I was one of the last group, I think, that got drafted during Vietnam, [00:28:00] and I went to Fort Knox for basic. September 1965, I got drafted, and we took basic at Fort Knox. And then I took advanced -- JJ: What’s that like? I don’t know what that is. WA: Well, you learn how to shoot the rifle. You learn how to fight, you know, with the [bungee?] -- JJ: Physical? WA: No, no fists. (laughs) They got the -- JJ: Oh, the rifle, okay. WA: -- rifle that’s set, you know, so stuff like that and shooting at a target, you know. That’s what I learned there, and you know, a little bit of self-defense, and then I went to advanced training in Fort Bliss, Texas. And in Fort Bliss, Texas, I wound up with 16B20 MOS, and that was artillery. So I finished my artillery. I [00:29:00] made sergeant in 16 months. JJ: [Congratulations?]. That’s awesome. 23 �WA: And I never went to Vietnam either, so I was lucky. I worked with the Nike Hercules. That was my M1, and I was assigned to the warhead of the Nike Hercules. It’s only eight of us that was in that group. We had no back check. We didn’t belong to the 333rd Artillery. This is a individual group, so you know, I was lucky. You know, I fell in the right places, you know, and I had good grades, I guess, when they took my test. (laughs) So that kinda helped me with that, you know, but as far as hurting somebody just for the heck of it, I would never do that. I mean, I have my -- but like I said, again, in those days, we had our own fights. But we shook hands at the end of the fight, and it was over. JJ: So you mentioned [00:30:00] Action YMCA. WA: Action, yeah. JJ: What do you remember from that? WA: Oh, that’s where we did all our sports; swimming, everything. Action was the home for -- after school, you know, we’d go there. In the summer, we had, like I said, the baseball teams. You know, we’d never played soccer, but we’d play -- JJ: So who else was in the baseball team? What are their teams? WA: Well, the Paragons was a team at that time. The Black Eagles were a team. In the days before the Paragons came, we had the Flaming Arrows, and we had the Black Eagles. What other team? I think maybe the [Youngers?] might have been around -- JJ: Yeah, the Youngers were around [back then?]. WA: -- at that time. I think they were in there too. JJ: So you -- 24 �WA: Like I said, they were younger kids. JJ: Right, they were younger back then. WA: Yeah, but the older guys -- that’s what we did, mainly. JJ: But some of these people turned into gangs later. [00:31:00] Didn’t they turn into gangs, some of them, the young boys or any of the...? WA: Well -- JJ: And the Paragons turned more into gangs, huh? WA: Well, yeah, but you see what happens. A lot of them are dead doing their own things, you know, but -- JJ: Weeds and drugs and stuff like that? WA: Yeah. You live the life, you -- JJ: So why do you think they got that deep involved? I mean, you were there. Why do you think they went from, you know, playing sports to -- WA: Doing those other things? JJ: Yeah, doing those other things. WA: Well, by that time, I was already out of there. JJ: Oh, you was out there? WA: Out of the neighborhood. I was -- JJ: So you don’t remember? Okay. WA: I always grew up, I’ll be honest, in a nice neighborhood. I never lived in a neighborhood that was bad, so I got to give you that. That’s one thing I always deal with myself. Since I have my kids now, they can’t say they live in a bad 25 �neighborhood. We always lived in a good neighborhood, had a home, you know, so... JJ: And who did -- WA: We -- JJ: -- that? Who made sure that you did that, [00:32:00] you or her? WA: My father. If I wasn’t home by eight o’clock at night, I got whipped, so -- JJ: When you say whipped, what do you mean? How did he whip you? WA: With the belt. JJ: Oh, it was a belt. WA: Hell, yeah. He’d say I was supposed to be here at 7:30, not eight o’clock. JJ: Was that normal? ’Cause today, that’s (inaudible). WA: Today, the kids come home at 12:00 midnight, but that’s why that you gotta -- JJ: But when you grew up, they -- WA: Oh, my mom and dad were strict. And in my house, not one guy gets whipped. It’s three of us, and my father whipped all three. Even though the other two [had nothing to say?], he said, “That’s in case you guys want to laugh about it,” you know, so that’s the way he was. That was good ’cause Sixto, second after me, never cried. And I always used to tell him -- ’cause my dad touched me one time with the belt, and I’m screaming. But Sixto would just [00:33:00] take it. He was very hard. He would not cry, and I would say, “Man, just cry.” But Ruben and I would start crying. One hit, and I’m crying, you know, so you don’t get -- JJ: To get him to stop? WA: Yeah. 26 �JJ: But he wasn’t -- WA: No, he just did it because, hey, what he says -- in those days, you respect your parents. I mean, you know, you don’t just tell your parents this or that in those days. You know, I never swear. I even tell my kids, “You never hear me swear, but you swear.” That’s the way it is, but that’s the way they come up. But, you know, that’s -- JJ: What about church and that? Where did you guys go to church at? WA: We went to Holy Name. I made my first communion -- JJ: Holy Name Cathedral? WA: -- in Holy Name Cathedral, yeah. I made my first communion there, and I did my -- the one that comes after the... MA: Confirmation. WA: Confirmation, [00:34:00] also. I did my confirmation at Holy Name -- JJ: At Holy Name? WA: -- Cathedral, yeah. JJ: So -- WA: So Holy Name. St. Joseph was also -- JJ: Were there Spanish people there at Holy Name? WA: Yeah, sure, there were Spanish. JJ: So there was -- WA: I went to the cathedral in my days in Ogden School ’cause it’s Ogden and State, and the cathedral was on Chicago Avenue and State. JJ: So you went to public school, and then you went to Catholic church? 27 �WA: Catechism. JJ: Catechism. WA: I had catechism. Yeah, that’s where I went to -- [well, also?] the Lawson YMCA on Chicago Avenue, you know. We went there also. I was in the swimming team there too. We had -- JJ: Were there other Spanish people there? WA: Yeah. We had really -- JJ: That’s awesome. But [what was the?] year? WA: Huh? JJ: What year was that? WA: This is ’55, ’56, yeah. JJ: And the whole neighborhood was Latino? WA: Yeah, mm-hmm. And also, like I said, we went to [00:35:00] St. Joseph -- JJ: On [Clark?]? WA: -- in Orleans, yeah. They had Spanish masses there, yeah. JJ: Were there any activities? Did anybody organize anything? WA: Not too many functions. Most of the activities was at St. Michael’s on Cleveland and North Avenue. JJ: What kind of activities did they -- WA: Everything. My wife and I, when we were high school friends, went to dance there. All the guys used to go dance there. I don’t know if you remember Jose Rodrigeuz, Joseito. JJ: Oh, Jose? 28 �WA: Yeah, that’s the -- JJ: Actually, he’s my third cousin. WA: Is he really? Okay. And his brother, you know, passed away. Was it Manny? JJ: Carmero. WA: Carmero. JJ: Carmero. WA: Carmero used to be a teacher at Roberto Clemente, and his wife. So we were the dancers. We were the guys that knew [00:36:00] all the steps with -- JJ: Oh, you were a dancer [back then?], huh? WA: We used to practice, yeah. (laughs) JJ: But did you dance Spanish or English? WA: Spanish, mainly. That’s what it was ’cause that’s where you do some nice steps, you know. English is, you know... JJ: And Jose danced particularly good too, yeah? WA: Oh, hell yeah. All of us were. Carmero -- JJ: [All of you?] too, huh? WA: We used to practice together. We used to practice dancing, you know, so -- JJ: Oh, the cha-cha-cha and -- WA: -- all the girls would want to dance with us. (laughs) JJ: The cha-cha-cha, [you did also?]? WA: Yep, I danced everything. I used to be good. I still got a little swing. JJ: (Spanish) [00:36:36] had a lot of dances. WA: Oh, we had a lot of dances there. And then also, we had it -- 29 �MA: At (Spanish). [00:36:41] WA: (Spanish) [00:36:42] had one, the one on Clark and Southport where it comes by Wrigley Field. JJ: Oh, at Wrigley Field. WA: Yeah, there used to be that -- JJ: So they had dances? WA: -- (Spanish). [00:36:53] JJ: Oh, (Spanish) [00:36:55], I see. WA: (Spanish) [00:36:56] used to be there. JJ: That’s the best one. WA: I played ball for the (Spanish). [00:37:00] JJ: Oh, you did? WA: In the old days, yeah. And I played for (Spanish) [00:37:03] at St. Michael’s. JJ: Oh, you played at St. Michael’s too for (Spanish) -- [00:37:07] WA: Yep, and then I played for the Puerto Rican Parade. I played for the -- what was those [things that?] -- JJ: What did you play? WA: Third base. JJ: Third base, [that’s the one?]? WA: Third base, yeah, the hot corner. (laughs) Good reflexes. JJ: Actually, the ball goes higher than third base. That’s the way they are. WA: Yeah, that’s -- JJ: You have to be good to play that. 30 �WA: It’s a basic corner. JJ: Yeah, basic corner. (laughs) So you played a lot of sports? WA: I was into sports, yeah. I was very athletic in my young age. That’s why my kids -- whatever kinda sport they wanna play, I tell ’em, “When you go to high school, whatever sport they have, get in it. Join. You know, try to play.” JJ: Can you describe, because somebody that’s never been there at that time -[00:38:00] what were the games like? I mean, if you went to the game -- I remember we went and [saw pasteles?] and stuff like that, so that was our thing. But other people were -- I heard noises and people singing, I mean, chants and [other things?]. [00:38:16] I mean, what do you remember? WA: Well, we had a good team, so people used to like us. I mean, a lot of people went to see the games there. They were always pulling for us. Whenever we played our games, they pulled for us, yeah. JJ: So what do you mean, they pulled for you? WA: I mean, you know, they’d cheer us more than the other -- we had a good fan, you can say -- JJ: Fans? WA: Yeah, we had a lot of fans. JJ: Were there a lot of families that came, or...? WA: Yeah, families always were there. My wife and my kids would come to see me play ball, you know. Sometimes they would walk around by North Avenue Beach and that ’cause we used to play ball [00:39:00] always at Lincoln Park. And then 31 �we’d play at Humboldt Park. You know, we also played there. I played organized leagues, you know. JJ: So you played at Humboldt Park and Lincoln Park. And then -- WA: I played at a lot of parks. JJ: Yeah. Your wife went to the beach while you guys played? WA: Well, they’d walk around the park if we had the kids and that, but you know, she would go and stay there or walk around. JJ: So were there a lot of Spanish people at that time, then? WA: Yeah, a lot of Spanish people. JJ: What does that mean? WA: A lot. At that time, we already had, at Clemente, Puerto Rican. I had Puerto Rican friends that were policemens already, you know, and a lot of the guys that I grew up with are policemens and detectives and what have you, you know, so... JJ: Some of the guys from the Flaming Arrows -- were they policemen or -- WA: Yeah, Frank Regio. JJ: Frank Regio? WA: He’s the sergeant in the police department. He retired as a sergeant down there. JJ: Who else from the neighborhood was a policeman? MA: Louis. WA: There’s so many, and I can’t -- MA: [00:40:00] Louis Sias. WA: Well, Louis Sias, yeah. He was a policeman -- JJ: Oh, Louis Sias? 32 �WA: -- too, yeah, Louis. MA: And Pete Rivera. WA: Huh? MA: Pete Rivera. WA: Oh, Pete Rivera. (Spanish), [00:40:08] yeah. JJ: Oh, yeah, [that’s the?] -- WA: (Spanish), [00:40:10] we used to call him. (laughs) JJ: I was gonna interview him. WA: Pete? Yeah, he was one of the -- MA: Down at the -- WA: -- counselors in that time. He was one of the counselors for the Latinos and stuff like that. MA: Helped them out with everything. WA: Helped the kids, you know. He was involved with all the kids. JJ: You mean with the YMCA? WA: Yeah, The Y and everything. JJ: He did that? Okay. WA: He’s always been involved with us. That’s, you know, always -- I don’t know. My thing is if you do the right thing, things good are gonna happen. That’s the way it is. If you’re doing the best thing, the best things are gonna happen, you know, so that’s... JJ: So you would tell people to do that, or that’s just -- WA: Sure, I would. 33 �JJ: -- the way you do [everything like that?]? WA: Yeah, I would tell ’em that. [00:41:00] You know, it’s like I do with my grandkids right now. You know, I tell ’em, “This is this, and this is that.” And you can only tell ’em. You know, like they say, when the kids are out, you don’t know what the heck they’re doing. You only know when you’re watching them, and that’s it. But if you show good morals -- JJ: Good morals, uh-huh. WA: -- they’ll come up with good morals. That’s the way to -- JJ: What other things do you try to tell the grandkids? WA: Study; go to school. Don’t lie ’cause lying is the worst thing you do. Once you become a liar, that’s it. People don’t believe you for anything. Be responsible. Be motivated. Always, you know, move yourself and move others with you. You know, that’s what you gotta teach ’em. Those are the things that you teach your kids right off the bat ’cause there’s three things I live by. It’s responsible ’cause [00:42:00] when I had to be at work at nine o’clock in the morning, I was there at a quarter to 9:00 ’cause if you get there at 9:00, you’re late. That’s what I tell my kids. So I got there a quarter to 9:00 so I knew that I was not late. Okay, that’s responsibility. Honesty. A guy left 10 dollars on the table? He’ll come back, and the 10 dollars will still be there. That’s another thing that I always say, you know, and then don’t lie ’cause those three things are the ones that are part of, you know, doing things the right way. JJ: Did you learn that in school? Where’d you learn that at? 34 �WA: I learned that in school. I learned how to be a businessman at Walter High School ’cause in the old days, you went to high school. And if you paid attention and did things the right way, you gonna learn to do things. And I always wanted to be a businessman. And when I went to [00:43:00] Walter, they had how, you know, to be self-employed and have your own business, and how to run a business. I learned that in high school. JJ: And they had business classes, or...? WA: They had a business class, and then I had my -- one class was in the classroom, and the other class was with a job. I worked, so I went and I practiced work while I was learning. So I was selling when I was in high school. Already, I had a job at work. When I finished high school -- JJ: And what were you selling? You already had a job. WA: I was selling -- JJ: Selling what? I mean -- WA: I was a salesman. You know, what I had, mainly, is clothing and jewelry, and I learned, you know, how to promote a sale, you know. JJ: How did you get the job of selling? WA: Well, you have to get a job in order to -- JJ: Oh, to be a part of that program? WA: ’Cause one half of the credit is [00:44:00] on job training, and the other half is in the room. The teacher would test you in this and that, and you learned how to promote a sale. You know, let’s say you would come in the store. You want to buy a suit. 35 �JJ: Oh, man, don’t get that on tape. WA: And I look at you, and I already know what size you -- JJ: Don’t put that on the tape. (laughter) WA: He owes me a suit. JJ: “That guy owes me a suit!” WA: Yeah. And, you know, I always told my guys at work, “When a customer comes in, two things you don’t do is don’t ask him what color he wants, and don’t ask him what size. ‘Cause when you [tell him the things?], you take the tape measure to his waist, and now you know what he is.” You know, if you come in and you say, “I want a shirt,” my salesman will say to you, “Well, what size do you need?” See, you don’t have to know. You should measure that person. Let ’em know you know what you’re doing, okay? [00:45:00] So I tell ’em, “You measure the person, and then you say, ‘Okay, here’s what I have in your size, all this here.’ Don’t say, ‘What color do you need,’ ’cause if he asks you for a royal blue, and you don’t have it, you lost the sale already without starting the sale. But if you show him shirts, he’ll see a bunch of colors. ‘Oh, yeah, I like this one. I like that one.’ Let him be the guy who picks the stuff, you know? You just show him, ‘Here’s what I got in your size.’” And, you know, instead of some guys -they’re 34 waist, and God forbid you give them a 36 because I see a lot of guys come in and tell me, “Oh, yeah, I’m 32.” You say, “Okay, no problem.” So I will just give them a [purple?] and say, “Here, try this one on and see how it fits.” “Oh, yeah, this fits nice.” “Oh, okay. You want me to measure the length for you?” 36 �JJ: “You’re a 38.” (laughter) WA: ’Cause that’s the way it is, you know? I knew. I can look at you, and I know what size you wear in a suit, you know, but that was my business. [00:46:00] That’s what I learned. I can sell ice to an Eskimo. That’s the way it is. (laughter) JJ: But you learned that in Walter. You didn’t learn that -- WA: At Walter. JJ: -- from your family? WA: No. JJ: That’s the -- WA: I learned at Walter the underground -- in other words, the knowledge for it. But on the job is where I learned the real thing: what’s going on and how you gotta do things like that. JJ: So Walter High School was pretty good at that time? WA: Sure. I had printing shop. I’d read backwards because of going to printing shop. I had wood shop. I used to make a lamp, you know, out of wood and all that, the base and the legs and everything else. There were a lot of things when I was at Walter. I took a lot of shop classes, so it’s why I’m handy. When I do something at the house, I [00:47:00] know how to take care of it. You know, I don’t have to get men to come and do it. I do it myself. JJ: So they had a lot of trade? WA: Yeah. JJ: And you tried to -- WA: It wasn’t a trade school, but they had a lot of -- 37 �JJ: They had a lot of [elective work?]? WA: -- things you could learn. If you want to be a mechanic, you have to go to Tuley. JJ: Oh, Tuley had mechanics [courses?]. WA: Tuley had the mechanics, yeah. They had -- JJ: What years was this? So the schools were -- WA: This was in the -- MA: Sixties. WA: -- early ’60s. JJ: Early ’60s from -- WA: Yeah, from ’60, ’61, so -- JJ: Tuley had mechanic shop, and Walter had print shop and -- WA: Yeah, we had the -- JJ: -- business? WA: -- print shop. Yeah, we had all that stuff. JJ: And home ec? WA: Business courses, typing. I’d type. I used to do all that stuff, yeah. I also did mechanical drawing; could’ve been an architect. JJ: So how far did you go into Walter? WA: All the way. I graduated. JJ: You graduated? WA: Yeah. JJ: So other people from the Flaming Arrows -- where did they graduate? WA: Well, the ones who did was from Walter, maybe. 38 �JJ: The ones -- WA: Some from Wells High School, [00:48:00] you know, but the ones that didn’t graduate -- JJ: But when you look at the Flaming Arrows, you’re looking mainly at the sports team, right? WA: Well, that’s what we liked to do. That’s what we had. We were not into fighting or smoking or drinking. That’s not what we did. We did the opposite. JJ: That’s true. That’s what I [gathered?] about -- WA: Hey, listen, to stay healthy -- I wanna be 103, so... JJ: Well, when there was a little thing you guys did, the whole neighborhood sometimes got together and had a fight or something, no? You mentioned the baseball game. WA: Well, usually, you didn’t have fights in baseball, but the fights were -- this group of guys that were older than we were came in and, that same day, showed up around there after that. And -- JJ: And then baseball usually gets -- WA: Yeah, that was the only time -- JJ: It was just one time. WA: Yep, it was a one-time thing. JJ: So did you guys go around Halsten and Dickens? WA: Oh, sure. JJ: What was that like? WA: Walter High School [00:49:00] is right there. How can we not be -- 39 �JJ: So what was Halsten and Dickens like? WA: Well, I didn’t hang around there. I went there, but I didn’t hang around. I mean -- JJ: Where did you hang around? WA: I didn’t hang around. (laughs) JJ: Not even hanging (inaudible)? WA: No. JJ: Just sports, and that was it? WA: Sports. I’d come home and, you know, do my homework and that, and that was it. I didn’t do too much hanging around. JJ: It was more the Paragons and all of them? WA: Yeah. Well, we had dances also at the YMCA. JJ: So what were the dances at The Y like? WA: All the high school guys. JJ: So the high school guys and them -- WA: The girls -- JJ: -- [would go to these dances from Walter]? WA: Yeah, they went to Walter and -- JJ: So they were decent dances? WA: Yeah, in those days, it was. JJ: No big fighting or anything? WA: No, that’s what I mean. We were a fun group. Nobody was looking for any fights or anything, you know. Everything was normal, you know, not... JJ: Did the neighborhood change at all? 40 �WA: [00:50:00] Where? JJ: At Lincoln around North Avenue? WA: Well, sure. Right now, it’s a very good neighborhood. JJ: That good? WA: It costs a lot of good money to buy a house around here. JJ: And the other Puerto Ricans neighborhoods are not so good today? (laughter) WA: Yeah, well, it’s -- JJ: I’m joking. WA: Yeah, I know, but there’s still a lot of Puerto Ricans holding onto their -- JJ: To their properties? WA: -- properties, yeah. The guy who owned just about the whole neighborhood there was the hardware store, Frank. JJ: Frank. WA: Remember Frank’s hardware store across the street from the church there? JJ: At Armitage, yeah. WA: By, yeah, [Sheffield?] and that. JJ: He owned the whole block? WA: He owned the whole neighborhood. JJ: Really? WA: He owned, you know, almost every home, building, [shops?] around there. JJ: Frank? WA: And then, you know, what’s his name Carlos Flores -- he’s dead -- had that corner building on Armitage by -- 41 �JJ: Oh, he took me to that building. WA: Yeah, a big building he had there, so you know, some Puerto Ricans -- JJ: Did Mario Rivera have any -- WA: -- did all right. Mario -- JJ: At this point. WA: Junior or the -- JJ: Junior. WA: Junior has (Spanish). [00:51:00] JJ: (Spanish). [00:51:01] WA: But his father is the original. On Clark Street, he was the original in the ’50s. JJ: And who were some of the other businesses that you remember? Who gave haircuts? WA: Oh, man -- JJ: The barber. WA: -- we used to go to -- I forget its name, God. JJ: Well, who is -- WA: We lived in the same building on Sedgwick. We lived on the third floor, and he lived on the second floor. And then he went to Puerto Rico with his wife and daughter. Well, [Omelina?] -- JJ: Omelina. WA: -- was his name, and I can’t think -- JJ: Oh, yeah, Omelina. 42 �WA: Yeah, and that’s it. And then I used to also get haircuts on Clark Street by Chicago Avenue. It was owned by Puerto Ricans and that in those days, but I don’t remember their names, really. JJ: Okay. So [00:52:00] we talked about the school, and then we talked about when you got married. How did that happen? WA: I told Maria if she wants to get married... (laughter) MA: That’s such a -- WA: I was in the service, and we were going out, you know, when I went in. And I came out in September of ’67, and we got married in November of ’66, November 5. And that was it. Decided we wanted to get married, and so we got married. And at that time, my mom lived at 2250 North Lincoln. JJ: Lincoln? WA: Lincoln Avenue, yeah. MA: It was already changing. WA: Yeah, it was already getting (inaudible) [00:53:00] in the late ’60s. Well, when I came in ’67, we rented an apartment at 1341 West Addison. That was my first apartment ever ’cause I always lived at home with my family when I was a kid. I went straight from the house to the Army, so you know, I never lived alone. First time alone was when I went in the Army, so you can say that my upbringing was because, you know, in the Army, I learned, you know, a lot of hard work. When they tell you, “Clean the latrine,” you clean the latrine and make sure that it shines when you get outta there. You don’t want to have no complaints, and that’s always been my motto. When I do something, I make sure that I clean 43 �after myself. I keep it clean. Right now, when we’re together, Maria and I, I’m always washing because I like, you know, keeping things clean. It may be two cups only, but [00:54:00] you know, I’ll make sure that they’re clean and put ’em away. So it’s a habit that you learn, and I always carry myself that way. When I do things, I do it the right way. I’m not gonna do a sloppy job, and that’s it. So we got married, and hey, it’s been 51 years. JJ: Congratulations. WA: Fifty-one years, yeah. And of course, the product that we have raised are beautiful. (laughs) And they’re all smart, and they have a good head on their shoulders. And it’s because, you know, I always said that, “You gotta go to school, you know. You wanna be somebody? You gotta do your job and do the best you can, whatever you are. You wanna be a garbage man or whatever? You make sure that you’re the best there is because that’s the way it is, you know?” JJ: What’s the best thing that you liked about growing up there in that neighborhood? WA: [00:55:00] The neighborhoods that I grew up in? JJ: Well, yeah, the neighborhood -- WA: Chicago? JJ: Yeah, Chicago Avenue and -- WA: Well, I’ve always lived in a nice neighborhood, I’ll be honest. I never lived on Chicago Avenue, you know? I always lived north. Like I said, my first apartment was in Wrigleyville on Southport and Addison, 1341. That was my first 44 �apartment. My second apartment was 3624 North Wayne a half a block north of Addison and a half a block east of Southport. JJ: So you were living in Lake View? WA: Lake View area, yeah, always. JJ: Okay. But I meant in Lincoln Park. WA: Not Lake View area. That’s -- P1: No, that’s right. WA: -- Wrigleyville. JJ: Wrigleyville. P1: More like -- WA: Wrigley, yeah. JJ: That must’ve been somewhere just -- P1: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WA: Lake View, yeah. JJ: But I meant in Lincoln Park, what was the -- WA: In Lincoln Park when I -- JJ: What do you remember about Lincoln? WA: Oh, Lincoln Park’s been a beautiful park. It’s always been a nice park. It’s -- JJ: I mean the neighborhood. WA: [00:56:00] The neighborhood’s always been nice. It’s not a bad neighborhood. I mean, you had how many Puerto Ricans on Wieland Road, Irish -- JJ: On Wieland? WA: Wieland, yeah. 45 �JJ: So did you always live around Puerto Ricans when you were there? WA: Yeah, my neighbors were Puerto Rican. JJ: So, I mean, there was a lot of Puerto Ricans around you? WA: Not when I -- see, when I got my first home that I bought -- JJ: I’m putting stuff in your head. I don’t want to do that. WA: No, the first home I bought was my second move. We moved from that apartment that I got when I came out of the Army into this home rented, okay? This was in ’68 that we moved to that house. Sixty-eight or ’69? Sixty-eight. And Maria went first before me and talked to the landlord or the owner of the house ’cause they had the apartment for rent, and [00:57:00] she said that she wanted to move there. And then Maria went and talked to the lady. “Oh, yes, I’m gonna bring my husband in the evening.” So I came with her, and when she saw me, (laughs) she said, “A little bit darker than...” And I -- JJ: Something about you being Black? WA: Yeah, well, you know, Puerto Rican. JJ: They didn’t like that? WA: Well, her sister has a building in your neighborhood. JJ: Who’s that? WA: The Germans, Streitenfeld. Her sister had a building on Dickens -- MA: Halsted. WA: -- and Halsted right in that area. JJ: Oh, they had the -- 46 �WA: Oh, you know, and that’s all Puerto Ricans around there at that time. And oh, she was so upset that, “These people are so dirty and [cockroaches?].” I said, “Well, listen, ma’am. I’m only a half a block away from here. Go check our apartment. See how it is. We’ve been there already for a year, you know, [00:58:00] living there.” JJ: So you just talked bad about my neighborhood. (laughter) WA: Yeah, well -- JJ: But anyway, at this point -- WA: -- ’cause she thought that I was that type of a person. Right away, you know, they brand you by the neighborhood. MA: On my own, [they didn’t happen?], and they were very nice. JJ: Oh, they [were good to you?]? WA: They brand you in a minute, you know, but what happened is they did rent to us, you know. JJ: So you told them, “I don’t live with those people”? MA: No. WA: No, it's not that. I want you to -- JJ: But you let ’em know at that time. WA: Yeah, and you know what? MA: [It had started?] -- WA: You can say what you want. I said, “But, you know, we’re not those type of people. You can see my apartment, how my wife and I keep our house. And we --” 47 �JJ: Yeah, ’cause that’s the -- WA: “-- have a little girl already, Melissa.” So they didn’t even come to see the apartment. They just took my word for it. JJ: And they took your word for it. MA: [And that’s what they wanted?]. (laughs) WA: And I told them that I worked in, you know, the clothing store and all that. JJ: You know, the reason I say that is because that actually happened to me. You know, I went, and they told [00:59:00] me they had an apartment. And then when I got and brought my mother, then she said, “No, the apartment is rented,” because maybe they don’t [allow that?]. And they said it was okay, but then when I brought my mother -- WA: “She’s like me.” (laughter) So that’s what happened with Maria -- JJ: You know how -- WA: -- but you know what’s nice about it? JJ: So was that going on? MA: Oh, sure. WA: Oh, sure, it happened. She right away said, “Oh, no,” and she started telling me the story about her sister with the building in Halsted. And I said, “I want you to know that I graduated from Walter High School, you know? And yes, there is people like that in that area, but I’m not like that. And you don’t have to believe me, but you can go to our apartment if you want to check references.” And we wound up getting the apartment, so we rented that apartment. And the first winter -- the owner used to come and clean the snow and everything. But then 48 �[01:00:00] what happened is that whenever it snowed, I would get up in the morning early and clean up the side. I’d clean up the front ’cause I didn’t want Maria and the baby to fall or something going down the stairs. So every time he came, the place was clean already, you know. Two years later, he decided he wants to sell the house, so he says, “Yeah, I’m thinking of selling the house.” But in the meantime, he lived on Lawrence and Hamlin. JJ: And Hamlin? WA: Lawrence and Hamlin, a corner home. Real nice home, and he invited us for dinner, so we went to have dinner at his house. So we talked, and we made the deal on the house. And at that time, you know, Maria and both worked, and we had like 5000 dollars saved. So I told him, “Well, I got 5000 dollars that I can put down, and I’ll see if I can get the bank to [01:01:00] give me the...” At that time, the house was 21,300 dollars, so he says to me, “I’ll tell you what. I’ll give you a personal loan for three years for 5000 dollars more.” So now, I got 10,000 dollars to put down on the house, and I only had to finance 13,000 dollars on that house. Double lots. Bought that house; we made the deal. I paid 171 dollars mortgage a month. I used to make 230 dollars in rent from the two apartments downstairs. MA: Those were the days, man. WA: Oil heat, 18 cents a gallon, but I used to clean the furnace myself. I used to do everything. I would come out blacker than the shirt you have on, you know, because when you’re with all the carbon and all that stuff, my face and everything was, you know... [01:02:00] And then I’m wearing gloves and a long 49 �sleeve sweater because otherwise, I’d really be -- and from that house, two years later, we bought another home. And I still kept that house, and I bought it on 5837 North Spaulding by Hollywood Park between Kedzie and Spaulding. So that’s my second home. Then, we sold that house, and we made a profit on it. In the meantime, we had a fire at the house on Wayne, and so the whole place had to be emptied. So what I did is I had the first floor opened up, you know, ’cause in the old days, they had small rooms. And the living room is small, the dining [01:03:00] room -- you know, so I knocked down walls inside the house, you know, ’cause the insurance gave me 30,000 bucks to do the work. And they put new windows and everything in it. I didn’t care about the money. The insurance is giving me money anyway, and I had, you know, the insurance that I paid. But they did everything the way we wanted it, so we moved back into the house there. JJ: And the house was located where? WA: Thirty-six 24 North Wayne. JJ: North Wayne, that’s right. WA: Mm-hmm. And then it came out that (Spanish) [01:03:34] Louis Sias and his brother had a building at 1409 West Byron, and they were gonna sell the building. So I bought that building from them, and I still kept the house there. This is in ’72, ’73, around there. And the building had three apartments because they had a basement apartment, and they [01:04:00] had the first and second floor. So I was getting rent from the building, so it pays itself. I didn’t have to pay 50 �too much, you know, and I bought it because I put her mother on one floor and I put my mother on the other floor. So I had my two -MA: Look out. WA: (laughs) Both of my moms -- MA: (Spanish). [01:04:20] JJ: (Spanish). [01:04:23] WA: So I had my two moms together, you know, and then the one apartment, I rented to this Dominican guy. He’s a CTA bus driver, so he picked up almost the tab for paying the mortgage on the building and everything because, you know, he had reasonable rent. And the area is a nice area, you know. And that building -- I sold it in 1998. I paid 115. We sold it for 400,000, but Uncle Sam killed me with the -- JJ: All the -- WA: -- tax, [01:05:00] so I said, “What are you gonna do?” But what happened after that is that before I sold the building, the store where I worked at, Gaslight, came up for sale. So I needed 50,000 bucks cash to buy half of the store. So since I already had fixed up the house on Wayne and lived there, the bus driver -- you know, I told him that, “I’m gonna need that apartment.” So I gave him two free months’ rent and, you know, said, “I’ll give you two months to move, and you don’t have to pay me anything.” And, you know, he was a nice guy. We had a good relationship, so he moved out, and I went in and I took that apartment. I sold my house on Wayne, and I got the 50,000 to buy Gaslight, that 50 percent. JJ: What year was this? 51 �WA: 1978. JJ: Seventy-eight? Okay. WA: Seventy-eight. JJ: And [01:06:00] you just got into the business of clothing? WA: Yeah, but I’ve been doing it all my life. JJ: But you were doing it all your life, so -- WA: Since high school, I’ve been doing this -- JJ: Yeah, you were selling it. WA: Yeah, selling and buying. JJ: But was Darwin connected with you at the time? WA: I had my stuff before (Spanish) [01:06:14] Darwin. JJ: Before him? WA: No, he was not connected with me at all. JJ: Okay, so he learned from you. I mean, he got connected with -- WA: No, he worked at Herb’s on North Avenue. He -- JJ: Oh, that’s right, Herb’s. WA: Oh, yeah, he worked for a long time also in the store. MA: And my brother worked for him. JJ: Oh, your dad worked for him? MA: No, my brother -- JJ: Oh, your brother. MA: -- worked for Darwin. JJ: For Darwin? 52 �MA: I don’t know if you know him. Alan or Bob used to work there. WA: Yeah, he worked with Tony. JJ: I meant that one, then, ’cause he had it there on Clark Street, didn’t he? MA: Yeah, Taurus. WA: It used to be The Windjammer -- MA: And then Taurus. WA: Yeah, but Taurus was his business when he opened it. But he worked at Herb’s, and they moved to Belmont in Central Park. JJ: Oh, Central Park, [01:07:00] okay. WA: And it became The Windjammer at that time, the store. JJ: But they have one on Clark Street, don’t they now? WA: Huh? JJ: It was on Clark Street? WA: No. JJ: Or was it -- MA: Maybe he worked there? WA: No, The Windjammer was on North Avenue. JJ: I’m trying to figure out -- then he must’ve worked for somebody. Okay, but -- WA: Yeah, he worked on North Avenue. When he was in high school, he was working for Herb. JJ: You mentioned North Avenue, but I’m saying I saw him around Clark Street or something like that. 53 �WA: Well, yeah, ’cause that’s when he opened up his own store. It was on Broadway, though. JJ: On Broadway. WA: It was on Broadway, yeah. JJ: It was Broadway, yeah. WA: Yeah, just north of Diversey. JJ: Yeah, north of Diversey. WA: Twenty-nine Hundred North on Diversey. JJ: Yeah, that’s where I saw him. WA: He had -- JJ: So that was his store. WA: Yeah, Tauru, T-A-U-R-U. MA: Yeah, Tauru. WA: Yeah, actually, that’s his month that he was born, a Taurus. MA: His birth sign. WA: His birth sign, yeah, Taurus. JJ: A Taurus? MA: Mm-hmm. WA: Yeah. But no, in ’78, I was a pioneer -- JJ: But he went to your group? I mean, you were all friends. You grew up together in Lincoln -- WA: I taught him how to ride [01:08:00] a bicycle. JJ: You taught him how to ride a bicycle? 54 �WA: At Ogden. Him and I both went to Ogden School. JJ: So you lived in the same block? WA: No, he lived by -- JJ: But you went to the same school? WA: Yeah, we went to the same school, but he lived more by Chicago Avenue. I was by Division and -- JJ: Oh, he lived by Chicago Avenue? WA: Yeah. JJ: Okay, I get it. WA: So, you know, yeah, I taught him how to ride a bicycle. But, you know, we’ve always been -- you know, growing up in -- JJ: Did he hang out at Halsten and Dickens? WA: Huh? JJ: Did Darwin hang out at Halsten and Dickens? WA: Oh, sure, he’d hang out wherever he wanted, that guy. JJ: He was one of those peoples that I don’t know. WA: Yeah, he’d hang out all over. JJ: I don’t know him, okay? (laughter) WA: But no, I kept most of my friends who are still, you know, there. You know, but that’s what happened in ’78, and then we had a contract that if anything happened to him, his wife would have to sell me the other percentage. And if [01:09:00] something happened to me, she had to sell back to him whatever, you know -- but he passed away in ’82. And then I bought out the balance of the 55 �store in ’83, and that’s it. But I’ve been running the store since ’78 by myself. He bought a motel in Florida. JJ: Okay. That’s where he’s at right now? WA: No, he’s six feet under. JJ: Oh, that’s right. He’s dead. WA: He died in ’83, yeah. But his son had the motel, and they sold it. They got rid of it, you know, but he lives in Florida. His son’s still alive. He’s 65 now. JJ: And you kind of retired now. You’re just -- WA: I retired in ’07. JJ: In ’07? Okay. WA: Yeah, 10 years already, I’ve been retired. Actually, it’s gonna be -- JJ: So what are you doing now in your retirement? WA: Nothing. I mean, when you retire -- JJ: Okay, well -- WA: I’ll tell you what I do. JJ: Fishing or anything -- you don’t fish, or...? WA: I don’t fish, no. That’s a boring -- JJ: That’s boring for you. MA: For him. WA: I play golf. JJ: Oh, you [01:10:00] play golf. WA: I play golf, yeah. That, I do. JJ: I don’t know anything about that. 56 �WA: Yeah, I play golf. JJ: Okay. I got friends that play that. I just don’t know anything about that. WA: Yeah, see, I picked that up also early in life. I picked it up in the ’60s or early ’70s. I mean, I stopped playing baseball in ’71. That’s when I started picking up golf, when I stopped playing baseball, because now, you know, I had the full-time job at the store and I couldn’t. The salesmans used to take me out, and I would, you know, play golf with them and all that, so yeah. JJ: Okay, so let’s kind of go to kind of finish up the interview and that. What’s the main thing that you want people to remember about growing up or anything like that in Lincoln Park or -- you know, not, [01:11:00] you know, to remember you by, but that you think are important? WA: I don’t care what they remember me by. JJ: Anything that you think are important? WA: All I can tell you is that if you do things right all your life -- you’re gonna make mistakes here and there, but nothing that is critical. Mistakes can be remedied, and that’s no problem. But when you go into making mistakes that are astronomical, you know, I mean, it’s out of this world, then, well, you know... But if you think, especially young couples -- they get married and have kids, and then they’re father absentee or mother absentee, you know. You gotta be there for your kids always, no matter what. They’re never too old. You always gotta take care of your kids no matter what, and my bottom line is that. I don’t want my kids to take care of me. I wanna take care of them, you know. That’s the way it is. 57 �And educate because that’s the most important thing; [01:12:00] got to have an education. Doors open up when you’re educated. JJ: And what’s the most important -- what do you remember the most of Lincoln Park, the neighborhood? WA: The most I remember is the good times I had. It was great growing up in Lincoln Park, I’ll be honest with you. I had a good time playing ball, and people were nice. I cannot complain. People always say, you know, “If you’re nice, they’re nice.” I always smile for one reason: so I can give you a smile. When I give you a smile, I don’t care if I don’t even know the person. I always smile, and it’s, “Hi.” And then they’ll look at me, but they’ll smile, and that’s one thing I always take with me. I give you a smile, and I get a smile. (laughs) JJ: And no negative things -- WA: Nothing. JJ: -- about Lincoln Park? WA: Yeah, nothing. JJ: About Lincoln Park, the neighborhood. WA: No, that’s -- JJ: Nothing negative? WA: Nothing negative, nothing. JJ: All positive? Okay, thank you, I appreciate it. WA: No problem. JJ: Can I interview your [01:13:00] wife? WA: It’s up to her. 58 �MA: I’m not a very good -- END OF VIDEO FILE 59 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5dfbcb05bd063405a9660ad4f0ded5d3.mp4 65358f16d0a987ec69228e665e53c849 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Wilfredo Aviles vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Wilfredo Aviles, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 09/27/2018 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Aviles_Wilfredo Title A name given to the resource Wilfredo Aviles video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Aviles, Wilfredo Description An account of the resource Oral history of Wilfredo Aviles, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 09/27/2018 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Wilfredo Aviles was Born in Manati, Puerto Rico. He arrived in the US on July 1955 to Chicago, IL at Clark and Division Streets or La Clark Neighborhood. His Parents were Angelina Tirado Aviles & Sixto Aviles, and he has three siblings. He lived in old town/Lincoln Park for about 10 years, then moved to the Lake View area. His work experience included the U.S. Army, and retail in the family owned business, The Gaslight Men's Shop, and eventually became the owner (43 years). He retired in 2008. Wilfredo was also a civic leader. He was the first Latino President of Erie Family Health Center Board (2 years); Treasurer of the Puerto Rican Parade committee (5 years); Puerto Rican Chamber of Commerce- Treasurer (5 years); and the Chicago Avenue Business Association-President (5 years). He was a member of the Caballeros de San Juan. During his youth he belonged to one of the many sports clubs which often played baseball in Lincoln Park. A few times members of his group joined with other Puerto Rican youth to protect themselves from roving white ethnic gangs which had existed in Lincoln Park previous to Puerto Ricans arriving there. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Young Lords collection (RHC-65) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-09-27 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d391bfe0593db4a474903e1873a99140.jpg f49069e51f59c69845e45ff613dab663 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WilkersonMichael_Photo01 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Wilkerson, Michael Description An account of the resource Michael Wilkerson, Anthropology Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College teachers Universities and colleges – Faculty Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/43090b590879dc8ecffc71dc03acd220.jpg 0668ab731617ad52960d03dedbd6cf94 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WilkersonMichael_Photo02 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Wilkerson, Michael Description An account of the resource Michael Wilkerson, Anthropology Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College teachers Universities and colleges – Faculty Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4030608f6fb08268148c91f8be54a6fb.jpg 3852365968f5a821127f3d2878a622f6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WilkinsAllen Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1973 Title A name given to the resource Wilkins, Allen Description An account of the resource Allen Wilkins, Lecturer Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College teachers Universities and colleges – Faculty Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng 1973s https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/def162161fe27a1dc681145cc8dafb92.mp3 cde503a930ecf9232eba43d0bd7408c1 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/971a257de3fb3c1912de448ea945dd5a.pdf b0ece7d82e0d947660870ee98501eb3f PDF Text Text Will We Ever Learn? From the series: A Fresh Look At An Ancient Story Text: Zechariah 9:9-10; Psalm 33:10-22; Luke 19:28-48 Richard A. Rhem Christ Community Church Spring Lake, Michigan Palm Sunday, April 8, 2001 Transcription of the spoken sermon This is my thirty-first consecutive Palm Sunday in this pulpit. It has been interesting to leaf through my past Palm Sunday sermon themes and texts. Luke 19, beginning with verse 41, has been my favorite. It occurred to me that you could trace my own evolution, my own emerging understanding of Jesus simply by tracing the Palm Sunday themes and texts over the years. Starting out in the early 1970s, there was the emphasis on Palm Sunday of the parade and the party. There was a subject, for example, “The Exhilaration of Celebration.” There was the emphasis on Jesus as the king, the rightful king coming to his rightful place, the agonizing king, the king who came in judgment, wet with tears. I remember that there was also just a little bit of “Schuleresque” in those early Palm Sundays, where we had learned that worship is celebration, that Palm Sunday was a great day to pull out all the stops, and it was fun. Looking back I also saw where that began to change for me in the early 1980s. I began to see Jesus more in terms of his humanity, more in terms of his prophetic role. I began to appreciate the magnificence of the life and the ministry of Jesus as he spoke truth to power, as he addressed the political, social, and economic movers and shakers on behalf of the poor and the marginalized ones. I began to see how strong, how true he was. Then I preached in 1984 “Jesus, You’re Really Somebody.” I continued to probe the theme of grace, the breadth of God’s grace, and I began to see that the idea of the atoning death of Jesus was not something that I could really adhere to any longer. If Jesus came from outer space into our space to die for our sin and to open up heaven for us, then Jesus, indeed, was the only way for salvation. But as I began to see that God’s revealing and God’s grace was of greater extent than just the Christian family, then I began to wonder about that centrality of the atonement. I knew that the atonement necessitated an exclusive gospel. But, if not a savior who died for our sins to make us suitable for heaven, what was Jesus about? I really had to find a whole new paradigm in which to understand him. © Grand Valley State University   �Will We Ever Learn? Richard A. Rhem Page 2   It wasn’t until 1993 that I braved the elements and expressed myself clearly: Jesus did not die for our sins, but because of our sins. It was the established, entrenched, worldly powers in all of their forms that conspired to bring him to death violently. And it has been that way ever since as we have continued to probe Jesus in his full humanity. He spoke truth to power, bringing upon himself the wrath of the best and the brightest, the establishment of church and state bringing him to death violently. As a little side note, it is also true that during those days of Palm Sunday celebration in the 1970s, our growth was going off the charts. When I began to sober up a bit and to see some of the superficiality of that and some of the other dimensions of Jesus, our growth leveled off. And when I began to see Jesus as I see him today, everything went downhill. I suspect if you give me another decade I could preach this place empty. But here we are again, another Palm Sunday, another entrance into Holy Week, another serious engagement with Jesus. We have one more time to remember, to reflect and to try to understand what it means to follow Jesus and what he was about, what brought him to death. I found myself over the years often addressing the current events of the day—the Balkan War, the Gulf War, one or another political, international crisis. It always seemed there was something for Palm Sunday that made Jesus’ life and ministry relevant to the current situation. I find it the same today. Let’s just for a few moments imagine Jesus parading into Washington, D.C. Let’s just imagine that Jesus comes up Pennsylvania Avenue, stops at the White House before going on to Congress. What do you think Jesus would have to say today? After all, to celebrate Palm Sunday is to remember the past, but only in order that it may impact the present, in order that we might be more faithful disciples of the one whose name we bear. And so, let’s just imagine for a little bit: Jesus in Washington D.C. All week long I could not help but think about Jesus and the United States and China in their standoff. What would Jesus say? What would Jesus counsel about how to end that standoff and to bring the people home and to move on? What do you think? Well, as I was conscious of this all week, I have been conscious of my reactions. I was conscious of every television newscast, because the media shapes our opinions and whether it is our media or their media, let us not be naive here. I am not talking about Americans or Chinese; I am talking about human beings. And media does shape what we think. I began to consider that international problem in terms of Hung and Elsie Liang, who are here this morning. I think if there was a vote on the loveliest, most gracious, loving, beautiful people in our community, Elsie and Hung Liang would © Grand Valley State University �Will We Ever Learn? Richard A. Rhem Page 3   win, hands down. They’re Chinese. Now I know they left China before the Red Plague, but they’re Chinese. So I began to think about this international problem in terms of two concrete people, trying to personalize it rather than allowing the media to demonize the other side. Why would we fear this nation if it has people in it like Hung and Elsie? What do they really think over there, anyway? I went to Samuel Huntington’s The Clash of Civilizations. He is a Harvard expert in international affairs, and this book is highly respected. I remembered that he was saying that in the future, in our global situation, the conflict will be between civilizational groups; the West, the Orthodox, the Chinese, the Muslims, and so on. He has about nine of them. So I went back and I picked up the book again and looked at the little discussion on China. I found that in the late 1980s and 1990s, the relationship between the U.S. and China deteriorated. An inter-governmental document, a Chinese document, said, “We should point out that since becoming the sole superpower, the U.S. has been grasping wildly for a new hegemonism and power politics, and also that its strength is in relative decline and that there are limits to what it can do.” In 1995 the president of China spoke about Western hostility. “Western hostile forces have not for a moment abandoned their plot to westernize and to divide our country.” Also in 1995 there was a broad consensus among Chinese scholars and leaders that the U.S. was trying to divide China territorially, subvert it politically, contain it strategically, and frustrate it economically. Samuel Huntington says, “... and there is good evidence for all of those claims.” So, might decent Chinese people in leadership be scared to death, or irritated at surveillance flights? Have they not a right to be concerned about our supposed negotiations with Taiwan about advanced weaponry? This is an international game and it is a dangerous game, and we’re one of the players. In fact, I saw the young Chinese who were interviewed on the street, and who I think really are very open to America. So many of them want to come here and do come here. But they said the U.S. is such a bully; it throws its weight around. Another said, “Why can’t the United States see us as a friend instead of a competitor? Why the hostility?” I know the situation is complex. I know there are good people doing their best to end this standoff. I know I am naive and uninformed, but I also know that I am a human being with a moral intuitive sense, and some common sense, and I want to know why such a standoff has to be marked by such diplomatic duplicity on both sides, the demonizing of the other side. Is it so difficult to say, “This whole world of which we are a part has a shadow side to it, and we play into it, and we are strategically trying to contain you because we’re number one and any time you are number one, you are threatened to death about who is going to come on your tail”? © Grand Valley State University �Will We Ever Learn? Richard A. Rhem Page 4   You can live in a gated community and you can get your security forces out, but when you are on top of the heap, you don’t sleep well. Would it be so difficult to say to the Chinese, “We’re in this thing together and it’s not good, and we’re sorry”? I suppose that is naive, but it is just a suggestion from a simple preacher, and I think the thing could be over. Jesus in Washington. He might stop by the White House and he might say to President Bush, “Why did you just scrap the Kyoto Treaty?” A special in Time magazine dated April 9 says, “Except for nuclear war or a collision with an asteroid, no force has more potential to damage our planet’s web of life than global warming. It’s a serious issue, the White House admits, but nonetheless, George W. Bush has decided to abandon the 1997 Kyoto Treaty to combat climate change, an agreement the U.S. signed but the new President believes is fatally flawed. His dismissal last week of almost nine years of international negotiations sparked protests around the world and a face-to-face disagreement with German Chancellor Schroeder.” This special Time report studies this whole issue, and in the course of the discussion about global warming, says ten years ago the data was fuzzy. We had no hard proof of global warming. But at the present time, the data is pretty certain that there is such a phenomenon as global warming and that it will have deleterious effects unless it is curbed. Why isn’t anything done about it? This paragraph reveals the reasons: Members of both major political parties recognize that global warming is a longterm problem that carries little short-term political risk. In other words, if in the year 2050, disaster strikes, it’s not going to impact anybody presently in Congress. By the time their inaction causes big trouble, many decades from now, they will be long gone. But, if they foul up the economy, they will be sent home next election day. When it comes to the environment in general, the president must answer charges that his campaign sales pitch was little more than bait and switch. Almost immediately upon taking office, the soothing candidate who made it a point to sound so many green themes on the stump began to govern much more like the oil patch president Conservatives hoped he would be.” That is from Time magazine. In the same issue, the Congress is detailed. Campaign financing: will it work, will it make any difference, will it do any good? The question is this: if the bill becomes law, will it truly disinfect our politics? The end of Clinton’s presidency and the launch of Bush’s were a parable for reformers, between the pardons for Democratic fat cats and the environmental policy clout of big business. But like a virus, political money has a way of mutating so that it spreads in any environment. © Grand Valley State University �Will We Ever Learn? Richard A. Rhem Page 5   If Jesus came to Washington today, I suppose he might have something to say about this planet, this creation, and the fact that we are playing fast and loose and political people are bowing to the pressure of power and wealth and entrenched, established corporate leadership. Corporate leadership. What would Jesus say about that? Michael Harrington is kind of a gadfly, prophetic type, and he is a bit on the left, and yet he got attacked from the left. Now if you’re attacked from the right and the left, you must be doing something right. He was worried about the growing collectivism of our economic systems. The Communist system, of course, is state planned collectivism, but it’s not only the state that can plan the economy. He suggests that the trend under modern capitalism was toward a top-down command model, bureaucratic collectivism in which huge oligopolies administered prices, controlled the politics of investment, bought off the political system, and defined cultural taste and values while obtaining protection and support from the state. Harrington says it is not a good thing that under modern capitalism, effective control over investment, credit, and social planning is increasingly vested in the hands of un-elected elites who hold their own class interest and who valorize their own class-determined notions of the public good. Then there is this Catholic nun—you always have to doubt Catholic nuns. They’re usually bleeding heart liberals and they’re very, very idealistic and of no practical good, really. But Joan Chittister is a rather thoughtful one who talks about the 25 largest multi-national corporations that have annual GNPs that exceed the annual GNP of the United States and Western Europe combined. She asks, concerned about the environment, “What is good for the company? What promotes profit? What enhances technology? Stirs us? Drives us, blinds us? Whatever it takes to double the dollar—the squalor of the people, the loss of the rainforest, the weight of the smog, the clogging of waterways and the appropriation of resources—we leave to the generations to follow with never even a grace to blush. It is patriarchy waged in mortal battle for power, profit, and personal supremacy. It is a global male game of ruthless proportions called having dominion and survival of the fittest.” Well, that’s what you’d expect from such a source. If Jesus came to Washington, or if he came to Wall Street, or if he came to the Church in Greece, an Orthodox country where one of the Greek clerics says there will be bloodshed if the pope comes to visit, don’t you think Jesus might have something to say? So Church, corporate America, Congress, the presidency—I have enough in this sermon to offend everybody. If I didn’t get your favorite, just stay tuned. My point is this, dear friends. It was addressing these kinds of things that brought Jesus to violent death. If Jesus had died as a savior of the world for the © Grand Valley State University �Will We Ever Learn? Richard A. Rhem Page 6   forgiveness of our sins and we could have pursued that in a personal piety, no one would care. If Jesus had simply said, “Look, I’m dying as a savior figure for sin, and Jerusalem, you can stay just as you are. Rome stay just as you are,” he would not have been killed. He would have died in his bed. But you see, on Palm Sunday he entered the city and confronted power with truth, prophetic truth, because he knew what we know, and that is that society becomes structured, develops structures. It needs them. We cannot live without social structures. We need political structures and economic structures; we need institutional forms. That is the only way we can operate with one another. A society needs order, it needs law, it needs custom. But what happens is that a society is organized like a pyramid, and over time, power comes to the top and that power is usually in terms of wealth. Wealth controls the political leaders, and what is bought and paid for is the maintenance of the status quo, which is good for business and which keeps everything on an even keel. It was true in Jesus’ day. Imperial Rome was an occupying power. The leaders of the Jewish people were collaborating for their own prestige and position and also trying to protect their holy place. Let us not fail to see that there was some genuine concern on the part of Caiaphas. But the system was wrong. There were people, masses of people who were being cast off their land, who didn’t have enough to eat, who were poor and suffering. It was a domination system and Jesus knew that it was contrary to that covenant understanding from the Hebrew scriptures, the tradition that was his. He spoke in the name of that tradition. He spoke where it made a difference. And they killed him. But the situation was not unique. That is the way it always is. It is true today. It is a pyramid, and our political system is bought and paid for. Campaign finance? My goodness, there are all kinds of senators who voted for it who really didn’t want it, because how does it operate other than through money? Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, in his cynicism, tried to get an amendment passed which would make it unconstitutional so the courts could throw it away, and it is still not passed. It has to go to the House where it may be killed so it never comes to the floor, because our politicians don’t want campaign finance, because that is the way they have gotten where they are. That is the system. Would Jesus have anything to say about that? He’d have something to say about how we’re dealing with the poor and the disenfranchised. He would have something to say about health care and he would have something to say about the fact that an inheritance tax is not a death tax, and probably if you have that much money, you don’t have to keep it anyway. Jesus would follow the money and he would speak a word, and it is the way society always is organized. Sometimes a poet comes along and sees it and sings it, but you can ignore poets. You can ignore Joan Chittister; she’s just a Catholic nun, a kind of a rebel. And then a prophet sees it and a prophet declares it and finds the problem. So you kill the prophet. © Grand Valley State University �Will We Ever Learn? Richard A. Rhem Page 7   Do you think that Jesus didn’t know what he was up against? This isn’t a bad Palm Sunday text, either: Woe you Pharisees, scribes, hypocrites, you leaders of the people, for you build tombs to the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous and you say, “If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in the shedding of the blood of the prophets.” Thus you testify against yourself that you are descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your ancestors. You snakes, you brood of vipers, how can you escape being sentenced to hell? Therefore, I send you prophets, sages and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, some of whom you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town so that upon you may come all the righteous bloodshed from Abel to the blood of Zechariah, Son of Berachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly I tell you all this will come upon this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it, how often have I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not, and your house is left to you desolate. I don’t know who it would be, but somebody in Washington would see that this prophet, and this poet, would be done away with. It might be the Pentagon. Maybe the National Security Office. Maybe the Congress itself. It could be a conspiracy cooked up in Wall Street. Who knows. But somebody would do away with him in our world today. Because nothing has changed. There is still a concentration of wealth and power, prestige and position. The only difficulty with that is, when you get there, you really have to build gates high and engage security forces, because you are going to be looking over your shoulder, because you are not at ease. You cannot rest. It is like the U.S. seeing China coming on its tail. I think that Jesus, when he said those words in Matthew which I just quoted, was angry. But ultimately, Jesus was not angry. It was anguish, because he was a son of Israel and he knew the Psalmist who said the war-horse is a vain hope for victory. The king is not saved by his army. Power finally will not do it. He knew Zechariah. He knew the vision of the prophets about the day that a peaceable king would come and do away with all the weapons of war. And if he had come into Washington today, he would have known one of the great crises of our world today, of the whole globe, is a question of global warming, and he would know about the concentration of wealth and power, and he would have to say something about it. He would probably say something about the pyramid shape of our society, and he would be worried about those lower layers. Jesus wept. Anger begets anger. Hostility begets hostility. But compassion and anguish sometimes call people up short. Dear God, what a Palm Sunday it would © Grand Valley State University �Will We Ever Learn? Richard A. Rhem Page 8   be if some of you movers and shakers, you who are the elite of the earth, would say, “What in the world can we do to follow Jesus?” I began Lent by saying, “What’s the matter with us?” I followed up with the question, “Do we need God to be good?” There is a little twist that is different this Palm Sunday, because in the light of where I have been moving, I thought one time that somehow or other that messianic dream of shalom would be affected by God coming in and making it all right. The more I think about it, the more I think God has said, “It’s in your hands. What are you going to do about it? I have sent you my son. You have a paradigm; you have a model. You know. You know.” Jesus weeps while we procrastinate and our world is in jeopardy. That is really what Palm Sunday is all about. A people wanted a parade. Parades are good. Celebrations are exhilarating. But if Jesus walked into Washington today, he wouldn’t have much more than a week to live. So, my question is: Will we ever learn? © Grand Valley State University � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Palm Sunday Series A Fresh Look At an Ancient Story, Scripture Text Zechariah 9:9-10, Psalm 33:10-22, Luke 19:28-48 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-20010408 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2001-04-08 Title A name given to the resource Will We Ever Learn? Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on April 8, 2001 entitled "Will We Ever Learn?", as part of the series "A Fresh Look At an Ancient Story,", on the occasion of Palm Sunday, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: Zechariah 9:9-10, Psalm 33:10-22, Luke 19:28-48. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives Non-violence Prophetic Voice Way of Jesus https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ab83c459aab1515ddce3b60bc29993ba.jpg 930bc89642714ef2dd77f1b0f730eb22 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WillRussell Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Will, Russell Description An account of the resource Russell Will Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ce20b53e53d0e57432ff645bf60b21dd.mp4 898faef4592373fb4a3298707a214b0c https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/13a28eb3f6d1bac6d99c03bd142195ab.pdf 8caa2286c0397e477f0251ea3da8b185 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Willard Musgrove Date of Interview: 02-06-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 1] FRANK BORING: What were you doing prior to AVG? WILLARD MUSGROVE: Well I was in the Navy and I was with the Enterprise in a squadron. We were based at North Island at the time and when this word got out, at first we thought it was just a rumor, and the word got out and then finally our skipper of the squadron "Fighting Six" is what it was - fighter squadron, and he, our skipper called us together and gave us a little talk about if we wanted to volunteer, that they were going take volunteers. There was a Commander Irvine representing this group and he was around and gave us a little talk and more or less as time went on I got more interested. Another thing is, the money was quite a good pay raise for those days in '41. It was offering Mechanics $350.00 a month and I was only making about $150.00 a month at the time. So it was quite a big boost and you know money talks at times. So when they did come around to sign us up, there were several of them that were going, but most of them backed out. It was Pistole and myself were the only ones really that signed up and when the time came for us to be released from the Navy, our group commander, he was in charge of all the squadrons attached to the Enterprise, he flew back to Washington to see if he could put a stop to this because there were 26 people, personnel leaving the area and that's quite a big bite between personnel. He got all the way to the Secretary of the Navy, Knox and Knox told him he was sorry but he was getting �orders from higher up and there was only one man he worked for and that's the way that worked. Well when it came about for us to be signed up, we signed up and they kept the pay office open all night long to get us out of there because the orders were pretty potent and the next day I was on an airplane flying to Indianapolis. They sent us to Allison Engine School, which was a different engine, naturally than what we'd been working on and we were three weeks up there. We took about a 4 months course in 3 weeks. It didn't mean much, most of knew what was going on about it and then on our way to San Francisco to catch a ship. I got a ride with somebody that was driving back, I picked up a ride and we got back to San Francisco and then we spent about 4 or 5 days, and I cannot think of that ship. It was a Dutch vessel that we got aboard. And the time of World War II was on its way then and everything was blacked out no sooner we left port, all the ports were blacked off. So we went to Honolulu and in the meantime I got a bad toothache and I had to have the darned thing pulled. We had a Dentist aboard in our group and I went to the beach - we were only in there till noon, the ship was going to pull out - and I got an Xray and came back, so this Dentist pulled the tooth for me. But it wasn't too bad and on we went. When we pulled out of Honolulu, we got out to sea, I believe it was a Salt Lake City Cruiser picked us up with an escort and were escorted all the way down to Australia. There a Dutch gun boat - it didn't look much but a gun boat picked us up and that's when the Salt Lake City left us, turned us over to this other - then we went on from there to Singapore and that was interesting, to watch all the little fires all along the beach at night. Got into Singapore and we were there only overnight. They didn't want to take us in there because the group ahead of us raised hell there. But anyway we got out of there the next day on our way to Rangoon. We got in Rangoon - it's about a 2 day trip. We were chased all night by a Sea Raider - I'm sure it was a Sea Raider because the skipper had this diesel job wide open and the sparks were flying out of his engine, you could see us for 50 miles. But anyway whatever we saw, it made a turn and followed us, so we figured it was a Sea Raider and they finally left us, we got �away from them because this ship could do about 22 knots, and so we finally pulled away from them. But that was an all-night deal and we all manned the rail most of the night. When we got into Rangoon we had to go through their customs and we picked up our passes and everything there and then we boarded a train to go to Toungoo, and on that trip up it was all daylight going to Toungoo and could see these Buddhist statues and their shrines. The put tin roofs over the top to keep the rain off so it wouldn't wash the coloring off them and my gosh there were dozens of them. About every mile or two you'd see one or two of them. Some of them are huge, they'd be 50-60 feet high some of them were. When we got to Toungoo, we got on a bus and came to our base and that was our mattresses came in 3 pieces like this - all in straw and it was kind of disheartening to see what we got into there. But after a few days we got used to it. And on the barracks - I'll use barracks - it was oh maybe a quarter of a mile - maybe not that far - from the field. Any of those that were there already out of the first group, they had gone to Hong Kong and then on down, we missed Hong Kong. But anyway - where was I? FRANK BORING: You've arrived at the field about a quarter of a mile or so… WILLARD MUSGROVE: I don't think quite that far because we walked - all of us started - as soon as we got around to it we'd buy a bicycle because that was our transportation there and we got out to the field and the planes weren't all there, just a few of the planes and they were flying them - I don't recall maybe a couple of weeks were getting there. We got squared around there finally and we'd do most of our work outside. We'd have a few planes in this hangar - one big hangar. It would handle maybe 5 or 6 aircraft stashed in there. FRANK BORING: Now what was it you were supposed to be doing? WILLARD MUSGROVE: I was a Mechanic at the time and we would check these planes over and try to get familiar with them because they were different aircraft from what we had - what I'd been used to working with. �They weren't doing much flying because we didn't have many aircraft at the time and we had coolies to do a lot of the work, as far as keeping the aircraft clean, and we'd try to help them out and show them little things like gassing, refueling the aircraft. Another thing, with our bicycles this got us away in the evening. We'd go on down into Toungoo and there was a little restaurant down there and we'd eat down there once in a while, we weren't too fond of the food we were getting, but it wasn't too bad - liveable. FRANK BORING: Was this anything that you were expecting? What were you expecting and then what did you actually find? WILLARD MUSGROVE: No, I wasn't expecting anything. I didn't - I'd put 15 years in the Navy prior to the time I went out there and a lot of things you don't expect. As far as the field - it wasn't a bad field for our aircraft to operate out of. We finally got our aircraft together and then we lost a couple of good pilots. We lost our Engineering Officer. His aircraft was ready. One of the Mechanics said his plane was ready and I woke him up - he was laying there sleeping - and he said "I'm gonna dive this airplane like it never dove before" and that's just what he did. The darn thing disintegrated coming down and I can't think of his name now, I'd have to look it up on the roster. FRANK BORING: When you put together a plane… WILLARD MUSGROVE: We didn't put any together. That was all done in Rangoon by a civilian crew down there and then this test pilot would bring the plane up when it was ready. FRANK BORING: But it was your job to maintain? WILLARD MUSGROVE: Oh yeah maintenance on them. We kept them up. FRANK BORING: What kind of problems did you run into? This was prior to Pearl Harbor, we're talking about? Still training with them? �WILLARD MUSGROVE: We were still training and the pilots were doing quite a bit of flying. Our skipper got up there with one of them and got into a flight spin and he saw he couldn't get out and it finally came out itself, he got it out. But I saw him and I wasn't sure he was going to make it because that plane was falling all ways and we could watch him over the field, that you could see. FRANK BORING: What kind of problems did you run into in terms of maintaining the airplanes during that period of time? WILLARD MUSGROVE: Not too many problems. As I said before, we'd run out of parts and like tires and from what I understood, they had a PBY that flew down from the Philippines from the Army base up there and flew down with a load of tires and brought them into Singapore and then we got them up there. So I think they came by ship from there, I'm not sure of that. But anyway that saved the day there because when they'd bring an airplane in for check - going through say like a 30 hour check or 20 hour check - we'd take the wheels off that aircraft and put them on another airplane so he could fly it because we were short of tires. That lasted for several weeks. That's about all I can really remember with problems. We had ground loops once in a while - they'd bend the prop and our prop men managed to straighten them out. They were electric props and 3 bladed props. But then it came time, the war had started - we knew the Japs were - an observation plane would come over once in a while - a few times a plane or two would take off trying to reach them but they'd be long gone because they came over around 20,000 feet and for a P40 to get to 20,000 feet took a long time. They didn't have the power to get up there. Then when the war started, the Burmese, the head man of all the coolies there, he showed up with all his war gear on that morning. We didn't even know anything about Pearl Harbor. But the radios told us all about what happened in Pearl Harbor, all the ships were sunk and damaged and then you couldn't get anything out of San Francisco, they wouldn't tell you a thing. Everything was censored. �FRANK BORING: What was your reaction? WILLARD MUSGROVE: Well not too bad because I knew sooner or later we were - because I was in the Navy and we went to Pearl Harbor in '39 as a group cruisers and the Enterprise and two carriers, the Yorktown and the Enterprise, only one at a time out there on the carriers and we knew that something was going to happen soon. It was no surprise to us. Just like they claimed that Washington was really surprised, but it wasn't. I won't go into that. I have some strong feelings there. FRANK BORING: What was the reaction at the base? You knew now this is it. WILLARD MUSGROVE: Yeah we knew they were going up. Most all of us had the same thoughts there about that. Then after the 7th of December two groups flew up to China, CNAC took us up there. We got in there at night and they had the lights on in the town and we landed at the field and we went in. They had us all set up there, where to bunk. We had a hostel and were about 2 miles from this field. The next morning, here come the Japs. There were about 10 bombers flew over - they were about 5,000 feet - they were higher than that because our field was 6,400 feet and that's quite high - and they were about 5,000 feet up above us and we saw them flying. We took off because they hollered "Jing bow" all the red balls went up on the staff. FRANK BORING: Explain about that - that's how you knew WILLARD MUSGROVE: Yeah. Well you could see it visually. FRANK BORING: Well what was it - describe it because I don't know what you mean WILLARD MUSGROVE: Well that meant there was an air raid coming off. FRANK BORING: Well was there stages? �WILLARD MUSGROVE: As far as I know they pushed everything up there at one time. That was about the only time I saw any Japanese aircraft around there. And they went on over into Kunming and dropped their bombs. They had all daisy cutters, those jobs with a stick on the end of them and they were caught flat-footed and the gates were closed and the Chinese were jammed up there. There were about 4 or 5 hundred I was told that were killed. We went down, we got in a truck, went on down into town after the air raid and they just threw them on trucks, piled them on one another and hauled them out of there, one on top of the other. But they couldn't get out of there, they were just caught flat-footed. Their air raid net failed them that time. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Musgrove_Willard_1991-02-06_v01 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Willard Musgrove L. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-06 Title A name given to the resource Willard Musgrove interview (video and transcript, 1 of 3), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Willard Musgrove Willard by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Musgrove joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in 1941 after serving in the U.S. Navy for 15 years. He served in the AVG as a Crew Chief in the 1st Squadron "Adam and Eves." In this tape, Musgrove discusses what he was doing prior to joining the AVG as an airplane mechanic and his experience during the journey overseas from San Francisco to Rangoon. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fc14658ffdae1b0cb2b9af6a15ce9e53.mp4 c87b394a9a4484223ea1a2cf1a346b81 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d74a7d2c941119dab0414d5052629f50.pdf 4d07d6f78a0f54194e618a3066a63717 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Willard Musgrove Date of Interview: 02-06-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 2] WILLARD MUSGROVE: When our planes came up we serviced them, got them ready for anything that could come up. And that was about it. That was about the only bombing raid that I can recall there. We had a couple of alerts but nothing happened. The planes turned around and went back. They were flying out of Indo-China - French IndoChina they were flying out of. FRANK BORING: When did you first meet Chennault? WILLARD MUSGROVE: Well I met him in Toungoo at our field. FRANK BORING: Can you describe the first time? Did you know anything about him beforehand? WILLARD MUSGROVE: No, I knew of him in the National Air Races in 1928 he was flying one of the aircraft - I forget what they called their aircraft. In the Navy we had 3 Sea Hawks. Our aircraft were far superior to what they had to fly. In fact, Lindberg flew one of them I think in '28 one time. But anyway, then I saw him in Toungoo several times. He'd be out at the field quite often and he had his own private plane there. A twin engine Beechcraft or similar to that and they had a Plane Captain for that. FRANK BORING: Did you associate with the pilots? �WILLARD MUSGROVE: Oh quite a bit, yeah. This one man I knew I was in the Navy with, we were both Seamen at the time and he went to flight school and came back first class. That's when our skipper let him fly his aircraft. Cokey Hoffman, we called him. FRANK BORING: But you guys socialized afterward - it wasn't just the crew chiefs? WILLARD MUSGROVE: A little. Not too much. I did with Cokey Hoffman because we were shipmates together and he was an enlisted pilot at the time in the Navy. And then they had a squadron in the Navy chiefs, enlisted pilots. But we went 2 or 3 times to town together, took a few pictures and he was always looking for souvenirs. FRANK BORING: How about the Chinese themselves? Did you associate very much with them? Did you get to know any of them? WILLARD MUSGROVE: No. We had a Chinese Colonel in charge of our hostel there where we slept and had our mess hall and we talked to him. But as far as associating with them, not too much and out on the field when we got up there they sent some Chinese to give us a hand on the aircraft. FRANK BORING: Did you have to train any of them? WILLARD MUSGROVE: Well yeah. Somewhat you did - you'd have to watch them. Another thing, you didn't lay anything down and walk off because it would be gone. When you went into town you always had somebody with you, so they wouldn't steal the hub caps or the rear view mirrors off your truck or station wagon. FRANK BORING: How about the British, did you associate with them at all? WILLARD MUSGROVE: Some. Later on as we get into the story I'll tell you more about the British. They had some problems, we didn't have too many and when we finally, as each squadron went down to Rangoon to �relieve the other one, that's when the Japs were working us over and our squadron was the last down there, the British came in there and we had one man there - Mickey Mihalko - and he was a character. We heard that - who was the General that was in charge of that area - was it Montgomery? Anyway, Mihalko heard about it and he got in his jeep and he stuck his thumb right in his stomach and he said "Hey you, you're about to lose Singapore, you better get a hold of the handlebars you're about to lose Singapore". I didn't see it but I heard about it - what a character? He would get tight and we'd have practically close the whole communication system down. But he knew it - he could run anything and he'd walk into that room where he had all his radio equipment there, and the noise going on and how in the world he could interpret that from the pilots. They had one man from the Army, King was his name, they worked together and they'd get drunk together. FRANK BORING: What were the conditions that you were working under for fixing the planes? WILLARD MUSGROVE: It was all out in the open, especially in Kunming, it was all out in the open. After a while we went on up to Chungking and it was the same thing there. Most of it was out in the open. Then we went down to Kweilin, that's a beautiful city down there and we flew down there. I was with Chennault on the plane that time. He didn't have much to say to me and it was just one of those things. We flew down there and that's where they knocked down the first twin engine fighter, Japanese fighter and then the Chinese Army tried to retrieve him and the gunner was alive, I think the pilot was killed I'm not sure of that. That gunner, he kept half that Army away from him. They finally got a hold of him and brought him in and interrogated him where we had our base. We had it in one of those darn little hills and every one of those hills was loaded with caves. That's where we had our main base. Chennault was down there with us too then, but that was quite a place, Kweilin. �FRANK BORING: When the battle started in December, when the fighting actually started, and you were still low on parts, still low on equipment, a plane would go up and get shot up or get messed up and then come back down again, what did you have to do to get that plane back up in the air again? WILLARD MUSGROVE: Well we didn't have too much of that. We didn't get shot up much, very little. And usually a lot of things would take the place, a piece of tape and some aircraft dope and you could plug the hole up right away. We had one man that was a metalsmith by trade and he'd do the patching. There wasn't much of it that I recall. FRANK BORING: So each one of you - there was like a prop specialist WILLARD MUSGROVE: Yes, we'd get a prop bent once in a while and in time they would straighten it out. FRANK BORING: So in other words an airplane would come in and if it had a hole in it, one guy would fix it, another guy would fix a prop WILLARD MUSGROVE: Yes but most of the props were bent from ground loop in the darn aircraft FRANK BORING: What kind of problems did you have to deal with? When the fighting actually started and an airplane would come in, you'd have to just check it over. WILLARD MUSGROVE: Oh yes you'd always check it over and any of the gripes from the pilot then they'd take care of them from there. FRANK BORING: What were some of the gripes? What kind of things that you can remember? WILLARD MUSGROVE: Well I can't remember too much. See I was assigned as a Line Chief for about the first 5 months, just a temporary job and a lot of that the gripes were handled through the Mechanics on the aircraft. �FRANK BORING: Anything special, they'd come to me on it and right now I can't give you much on it - it's a long ways back. What was the morale like? WILLARD MUSGROVE: Pretty fair. We had some that didn't like it and they finally quit and went back on their own. FRANK BORING: How did you feel after a few months of being out there? Did you feel like this was something you still wanted to stay at? WILLARD MUSGROVE: Oh I planned on staying my time. I didn't let my feeling take any advantage of that. But I stayed out there the whole time. FRANK BORING: Were you really informed as to the status of AVG after Pearl Harbor? Did you hear rumors that you were going to be inducted into the Army or whatever? WILLARD MUSGROVE: Oh no. When we were down in Kweilin, there was a Colonel that came in down there and they tried to get us to go in the Army and Chennault was questioning me and he said "we'll offer you this" and I said I don't want any part of it. I said I'm going back in the Navy when I get out of here. I said I've been on four aircraft carriers at that time and I said I know where the …and he said "well you'll sink in them". Well I said I know but that's where all my experience is, is on carriers. FRANK BORING: You had mentioned earlier that you had a few stories about the British. WILLARD MUSGROVE: Oh yeah. Well they got involved. Later on when we went back to Rangoon we had to drive a truck out of there and we brought what supplies we could pick up on our trucks when I went to Rangoon. Anyway, we left at night, we were headed for Prome, I think that was the old capital of Burma at one time and we got out of there and then on up and there was another group that followed us out of there, but we picked up these British soldiers, in fact we stayed one �day and a night in one of their camps - and their food I didn't think much of it there - and the Japs had surrounded these British - I think there was something like 200 of them and they surrounded them and wiped them out. And these Gurkha Indians got a few of them out of there and we picked up three of them. Then later on we had one of the British who was in our transportation department and that's what he did in civilian life. FRANK BORING: What were the last days like, getting towards June-July of '42? What was morale like? You knew that things were changing. WILLARD MUSGROVE: Well it wasn't too bad. FRANK BORING: How did you feel at that time? WILLARD MUSGROVE: I was getting ready to come home, that's what I was doing. And then I had to bum my way all the way back to the States. FRANK BORING: Tell us about that. You're finally leaving now, what happened? WILLARD MUSGROVE: Well I got on this plane - this Purser came up to me and it was going to cost so much to fly over the hump - to Din Jan - I think it was around $300.00 - I'm guessing at that because I don't remember - and he had this board and he wanted me to sign up. So I wrote "Complimentary" on there and it satisfied him and I like to have froze to death going over that hump, because I just had a leather jacket on. It was cold up there. It was about 17,000 feet going over that hump and there was a hill just below you, maybe 500 or 1000 feet below you, there were pretty high hills over there. We got into Din Jan - a little burg that was a base where they had the Army was there and they had a camp. So I stayed in a darn mud hut, no door on it, just was a low door and door stakes in the ground and leather straps across with 3 pads for a mattress. In that place there you were a little bit nervous because they had cats in that area. This Army Major said that the first aircraft that arrived he was going to put us aboard and turn around and send us back, �and that was when Rommel was making his big push in Northern Africa. But anyway we got out of there and right on over to New Delhi. I think we stopped one place if I remember right, and they fueled with 5 gallon cans. Of course New Delhi had a decent airport there. And we had nice quarters there and good food and we even took in a movie there while I was waiting for more transportation. Then we flew from New Delhi to Karachi, India and that's where they said it's $1,500.00 from here to Miami. So I didn't do anything right then. I went to Pan Am at their base to see if they'd hire us. Well, we'll give you a flight to the Gold Coast on the West Coast of Africa and we went from there - we stopped in the middle of Africa someplace, I can't tell you where - spent the night there. When we got to Africa we stopped at Pan Am for the night and they put us up and the food was good. We were always interested in food because we all had practically the same thing. I got dysentery out there the last part of the Burma Road I was driving on. I lost 43 pounds, I thought they were going to bury me out there. We got to the Gold Coast and they drew straws. Nobody said anything, we went out to the field to look for this superintendent that did the hiring. He wasn't around so we came back that afternoon, still wasn't around. So I was picked to fly to Fisherman's Lake, one of the group, they drew straws on that and when I got up there - I don't know how many there was of us about 12 or 15 of us. I ran into an old pilot I used to know, Sullivan was his name and he used to be in the squadron flying Big Boats and he was flying Clippers, Boeing Clippers. We finally got through that line, they weren't going to take us through there, we were going to have to pay, but someway or other, one of the pilots, I don't recall his name, had a long a talk up there and finally decided to send us on through. So I spent all night talking with Sullivan, talking over old times. FRANK BORING: Why did you have to go through all this trouble to get back home? WILLARD MUSGROVE: We were thumbing our way. Nobody wanted to take care of us, get us back. �FRANK BORING: Well that's what I want to know about. Why did you have to go through all this? WILLARD MUSGROVE: The only thing I had was a letter signed by Chennault if they would cooperate and furnish the transportation, but that's all I had and I don't' know whatever happened to that letter. I would have liked to have kept it. FRANK BORING: Looking back now and after all the things that have been in the newspapers and books and all that, what do you feel about those days in terms of your life? WILLARD MUSGROVE: Well it was an experience. I had a lot of experiences that I'll never forget or never regret. FRANK BORING: When you were there did you feel like you were part of history? WILLARD MUSGROVE: No I never gave it a thought. I didn't think about that because even when I came back and they found out I was in the Flying Tigers, nobody paid any attention to it. Just another outfit to be with, is all. FRANK BORING: What do you think you guys accomplished out there? WILLARD MUSGROVE: Well I think we accomplished a lot in a lot of ways because it boosted the morale of our country. At least somebody was doing something, taking some action. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Musgrove_Willard_1991-02-06_v02 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Willard Musgrove L. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-06 Title A name given to the resource Willard Musgrove interview (video and transcript, 2 of 3), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Willard Musgrove Willard by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Musgrove joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in 1941 after serving in the U.S. Navy for 15 years. He served in the AVG as a Crew Chief in the 1st Squadron "Adam and Eves." In this tape, Musgrove describes his impression of General Chennault upon meeting him in Toungoo and the working conditions the mechanics experienced, in addition to the overall morale during the last days of the AVG. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/be16d6382454eb27da7b9fda13001640.mp4 489cdfe0b54765172667f1b9a64ea8dc https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7a8ed5b7791df49b74e2a48599cb6980.pdf e9eb12e5fc702b123e10ca59a4ee76dc PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Willard Musgrove Date of Interview: 02-06-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 3] WILLARD MUSGROVE: When we were driving up this Burma Road - it was out of Prome we'd gone, we were about a day out - no, I'm mixed up there on getting back because it was later and I was in this jeep and this Chinese Army Captain and one of the soldiers and they'd flipped this jeep. Well I was looking for batteries anyway so I left the jeep, I put the battery in the truck, but first of all, the Captain's back was hurting him and I wouldn't move him. Then this other Chinese, I had a little bottle of merthiolate and he had a cut on the top of his head and I poured this on and let him hop around awhile. I got a board I carried in the truck and I got the Captain over on this board and picked him up. I was afraid to move him because he could have had a broken back and I got him on the back of the truck and we got him to the next town and I turned him over to the local authorities. That was about it on that. Later on we were in this town, they had a river running right through the town and a beautiful falls right in the river about 20 feet high, this falls and I had this dysentery. This was later on after we left Kunming for Chungking, I went to a Chinese doctor and you know what he gave me? Epsom salts - my God! When those things hit you - whew - I didn't stop for anything - just get that door open and get the music roll and get going'. What we had was a private garden, you know out there they use human feces all the time and our doctors inspected and claimed it was all right and that's where I got it from �I know. And that made it miserable the whole rest of the trip all the way to Chungking. FRANK BORING: What was the Burma Road like? WILLARD MUSGROVE: In Burma it was excellent. It was all paved road and then into China, we're going up this one side, there were 22 hairpin turns and the truck, it was a standard truck, double wheels in the back, but most of the time I had to back up to make the turn and this is where the Japanese caught the Chinese. The Chinese blew up the bridge and they couldn't get up the hill, they had all their equipment all on the top of this hill and the Japs just knocked most of it out. But it was quite a deal. Later on - I don't recall who it was - they were on there when these Chinese were going before they knocked the bridge out - the Chinese were running by hollering "Nipponese, Nipponese". Finally it dawned on them what was going on because here was shooting going on. So they dropped everything and left the truck and went up the river for a couple 3 miles and that's where they saw them wreck half their equipment over on the other side. FRANK BORING: What were you doing there at that time? WILLARD MUSGROVE: I was in Toungoo at the time - not Toungoo, in China FRANK BORING: Why were you with that group of people? WILLARD MUSGROVE: I wasn't with this group. This was later on when they knocked that bridge out. FRANK BORING: When you traveled the Burma Road was it mainly to get equipment? WILLARD MUSGROVE: Get our equipment and move anything out that we could get out of Burma. The roads were good in Burma. But when you got into China in some places some of those ruts were all the way to the �axle. Why they let it go like that - I guess they couldn't get the personnel to fix the roads. They were very poor some places - and some places the roads were good. When I got into one area there, you could drive your truck flat out if you wanted to. But it was peculiar, like ancient times these big mounds 2 - 3 hundred feet high, like a little hill, but peaked almost and every one of them had tunnels and water inside of them, streams were running in them and the road there was good, you could drive along at 70-80 kilometers. FRANK BORING: When you first came up with the idea of joining up and going over to Burma, did you have any idea of what might happen to you? Were you afraid? WILLARD MUSGROVE: No I wasn't thinking of that. The only thing was possibly maybe a Jap prisoner or something like that. We had a pilot that was shot down and the Japs picked him up. But that was the only thing I could think of that bothered me. FRANK BORING: So you never imagined the actual conflict? WILLARD MUSGROVE: No. I knew it could be very rough, especially from our outfit, but look at Boyington, he was picked up shot down in the South Pacific and he wound up as a mess attendant, gained weight while he was there. FRANK BORING: Was there any time while you were in during that year that you were afraid that you might not make it back? WILLARD MUSGROVE: Oh no. I never gave it a thought. No, I really didn't. When I was in the Solomon's during the war - when I got back in the Navy I went right down to the South Pacific, I went aboard a carrier and they transferred me to a casual outfit and we were moved down there in the Solomon Islands. That was different. I was flying from one place to another and I wasn't sure we were ever going to make it. We ran into a rain storm - a regular storm. We went up to about �15,000 feet and as high as you could see and it was just pouring down and then we went down to about 150 feet from the water and the waves were as high as that plane was big. I wasn't sure we were going to make that and the pilot it was a good thing he was an experienced pilot, instead of trying to make his destination, he turned around and went back and we were about 7 hours on a C47. FRANK BORING: Tell us about Boyington. He was a very colorful figure during that period WILLARD MUSGROVE: I talked to him quite a bit and he'd get soused once in a while, but he was an excellent pilot and as I say, I don't think he had one fear in his body. He was in our squadron and I don't think he got along too well with the other pilots. They didn't have too much to do with him and one thing he loved to do when he'd get drunk - he'd stick his fist through the door and that was one of his bad habits. I guess he would fight anybody that disputed with him. He had a few planes - I don't recall how many planes he knocked down over there. Of course he got most of them out in the South Pacific and we were flying better aircraft at the time. But Boyington was quite a man. FRANK BORING: What did you think of Chennault? What did you feel about him? WILLARD MUSGROVE: Well that's kind of hard to say. I thought he was quite a man all right, but I had very little to do with him, very little. About the only time we had anything to do, was when he would talk to the group and that was about it. As I said, one of those pictures that you've got I had a beard and word got out that he didn't like my beard, so I shaved it off finally. But in the tropics raising a beard is tough because they itch all the time. FRANK BORING: When people think of the Flying Tigers they have an image - they had a reputation of hard drinking, hard fighting - women - is that true? �WILLARD MUSGROVE: No, not all together. I never drank very much in my life. More so later than I did then. And like the Governor throwing that party for our group, we all drank quite a bit that night. In fact even in the finger bowls they had alcohol and they drank 'em dry. Then they put on a show. The Governor had his daughter out there. Beautiful costumes they had on. But that's about all I can remember of that. FRANK BORING: These guys were a bunch of mavericks weren't they? WILLARD MUSGROVE: I think we were really, to tell you the truth. FRANK BORING: How did you feel about how the military treated you in terms of supplying you? Did you think you had enough supplies? WILLARD MUSGROVE: Out there? Well it was pretty hard to get a hold of until the Army was planning on coming out there. Then I think the first plane load came out with trash cans. They had a bunch of trash cans on one of them, I know that. But the supplies started to come in and then they finally showed up the last month they started coming in there. FRANK BORING: Just say that again. I think that's really important about most experiences on the Burma Road WILLARD MUSGROVE: Yeah the most experience was the various places we went to and from the second half of the Road from Kunming to Chungking, I had quite a bit of experience on that. I had a machine gun with me and I had to try it out on a hill. The only time I ever fired a machine gun. Then when we came up to the city of Chungking, we had to get on a ferry there. At that time Chungking was the most bombed city in the world. The Japs had been bombing it quite frequently and you could see it all the way across the river. Now that impressed me to see that. After the ferry, we went on through the town and on out to the airport. �FRANK BORING: What do you remember about the bombing? What impressed you there? WILLARD MUSGROVE: Oh I didn't see it, just the buildings were all - like you see in the pictures of the war going on now. But seeing it from a distance - it was about a mile across that river to where Chungking was. FRANK BORING: Was there much smuggling or black market activity along the Burma Road? WILLARD MUSGROVE: I'm sure of it, I'm sure of that. We had some engines that were in crates later on that were broken in and a lot of things in there that were smuggled up there. I don't know who put them in there. They came from Rangoon. We didn't have anything to do with them. But guns and everything else everybody was after them. I had a rifle that was given to me, a British rifle. I sold it when I got to Chungking. I had no use for a rifle. In fact I sold a little pistol to a Pan Am attendant in Lashio that was in Burma, as far as a gun and what could I protect, I couldn't shoot it out with anybody. FRANK BORING: How did you feel the military treated you after spending a year volunteering like this, in terms of honoring you or helping you back to the States? WILLARD MUSGROVE: Well the Army didn't have much to do with it. It was Pan Am did most of it for me. Goldie McCann, who was at that time Vice President of Pan Am, I used fly with him and made parachute jumps from the aircraft. Some of those pictures you saw, he was the pilot. He was an enlisted pilot at the time. Then he quit the Navy with about 15 years in and went to work for another airline, South American Airline and they went broke and Pan Am took it over and went to Pan Am and eventually he wound up as I think he was President at one time. I know he was Vice President. When I got back to Miami I tried to look him up but he wasn't around. �FRANK BORING: Were you at the meeting where General Bissell came and urged the AVG to re-enlist? WILLARD MUSGROVE: Oh yes. He made a long speech and they had uniforms for us and all this and that and then we wouldn't have to worry about - well I wasn't intending to go into the Army if I could help it. I wanted to go back and get in the Navy when I got back to the States, something I was familiar with. But he made a long speech about salaries and all this and that, but I don't think anyone wanted it at that time about getting back in. But until we broke up that's when they - there was quite a number of them went into the Army. FRANK BORING: Were you aware of the battle Salween Bridge, the gorge, when the AVG stopped the Japanese from coming into China? Do you remember that? WILLARD MUSGROVE: No I don't remember it. No I can't. That's when they blew up that bridge. And that's where we had a couple of them they had to escape on up the river, then finally made a raft and got across the river. We didn't hear from them about 10 or 15 days, something like that before got in contact with them. We didn't even know if the Japs had picked them up. FRANK BORING: What's the best description you could give us of the Flying Tigers as a group? WILLARD MUSGROVE: That's pretty hard to explain. Some of them were pretty wild. But we accomplished what we went after. I think we did a good job all the way through. FRANK BORING: What were you personally most proud of during that time that you accomplished? WILLARD MUSGROVE: Just that I was with the outfit, a volunteer and the reason I volunteered was because I knew the war was going to start. It was just a matter of time and that's the reason I went out there, I �volunteered for it. And I've been proud of the outfit all along. I think we accomplished a lot. And that's about it. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Musgrove_Willard_1991-02-06_v03 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Willard Musgrove L. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-06 Title A name given to the resource Willard Musgrove interview (video and transcript, 3 of 3), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Willard Musgrove Willard by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Musgrove joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in 1941 after serving in the U.S. Navy for 15 years. He served in the AVG as a Crew Chief in the 1st Squadron "Adam and Eves." In this tape, Musgrove describes his memories working along the Burma Road and his overall impression of the Flying Tigers. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/16999ab8fc15c1896b9c1f00fba2e7ff.jpg df167b7d72aa6204098b9e2dbed7abde Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WilletteJames Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Willette, James Description An account of the resource James Willette, Business and Finance Officer Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College teachers Universities and colleges – Faculty Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/03bdac928bdefe29c73d2b8a641a5007.pdf 84ceb5fffaecfeb41d5ffa99402332ad PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Civil War and Slavery Collection Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Slavery--United States African Americans United States--Politics and government--19th century Description An account of the resource A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemmen, Harvey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1804-1897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg; application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image; Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1804-1897 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-45_CW1-4449 Title A name given to the resource William Carroll from Edwin M. Stanton Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1862-04-19 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. War Department Subject The topic of the resource Stanton, Edwin M. (Edwin McMasters), 1814-1869 Carroll, Samuel S. (Samuel Sprigg), 1832-1893 United States--Politics and government--19th century United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Washington (D.C.) Shenandoah (Va.) Virginia Description An account of the resource Letter from Secretary of War Edwin Stanton informing Carroll of the leadership of his son Samuel Sprigg Carroll during a recent advance by the Army of the Shenandoah. In it Stanton expresses his hopes for a promotion for his son. Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Civil War and slavery collection (RHC-45): http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/72c3422515b8d54d6ae274ad2c872903.pdf e9f7a484a168227205059aa89a379079 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: William E. Dunbar Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 7/15/2012 Biography and Description Billy Dunbar is a member of the Chicago Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense (BPP). He is from the south side of Chicago. He keeps up with all the political events related to the BPP and the Rainbow Coalition, including the era of their origins. Mr. Dunbar is also a founding member of the Illinois BPP History Project, which is currently conducting oral histories to document the Chicago Chapter, so that the work of their members is not forgotten. Their project also wants the public to remember the impact that BPP Chairman Fred Hampton not only had on the African American community but on other communities of color and the poor. Mr. Dunbar is also a businessman. Today he owns a copy center.Chicago BPP Chairman Fred Hampton and BPP member Mark Clark were murdered in a predawn raid on December 4, 1969. Prior to his death, Mr. Hampton started a Rainbow Coalition, which was nurtured by Bobby Lee. The original members included the Young Patriots, a group of Hillbillies or southern whites from the Uptown neighborhood of Chicago of whom many had migrated from Appalachia and other southern areas, and the Young Lords from Lincoln Park. The Young Lords first met Fred Hampton at John Boelter’s and Ralph Rivera’s home and joined the Rainbow Coalition directly through Fred Hampton. Bobby Lee who was the BPP Field Marshall then began working more directly with José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez and the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, so we’re going to start. And again, like I said, just kind of relax. Give me your name, Billy, and date of birth, and where you were born. WILLIAM DUNBAR: I could’ve had all this prepared. Yeah, my name is Billy Dunbar. I was born on the South Side of Chicago in 1949 in September, a longtime South Side resident. I’ve lived between the neighborhood, the community Chatham and South Shore. Going to have to keep asking questions. JJ: Chatham, South Shore. WD: I attended Harlan High School from 1963 to 1967, and Harlan High School was the equivalent of what Whitney Young is today, a college prep. We had a number of National Merit scholars. We had a good sports team, a good academic program. We were good Americans. [00:01:00] JJ: What about the grammar school that -- WD: Well, we kind of integrated the grammar school, Burnside Elementary School, 90th and Langley on Chicago South Side. Went there. JJ: What do you mean you kind of integrated? WD: Well, we moved to 8900 South in 1961, and the South Side of Chicago was pretty well segregated, meaning that as whites moved out, Blacks were able to move in. In some areas – JJ: What areas? WD: Give you an example, the area where we lived was at 89th near King Drive. It was South Park Avenue. Black people did not live in any significant numbers 1 �west of Halsted at that time, and those Blacks who did move into the area, let’s say, 7900 South and [00:02:00] Western -- I mean Halsted -- is 800 West, anybody that moved across that line was subject to having their houses vandalized, their garages burned down, crosses on their lawns, Knight Riders, the whole business, as if we were in the South. JJ: What year was this? WD: This was 1957 through ’64, ’65. There was a lot of racial turmoil in those changing neighborhoods. JJ: So, in ’57, ’59, around there, nobody’s west? You said west? WD: No significant numbers of Black people lived west of Halsted in 1958, and as late as 1965, they would still -- although Blacks were then attending Morgan Park High School, which is far south in Morgan Park. Calumet High School, which is where Doc Satchel attended, that was a school recently [00:03:00] integrated. JJ: Doc Satchel was a -- WD: Doc Satchel was a minister of health in the Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party. He attended there before he became a Panther. That school was a hotbed of unrest because this was a new area for Blacks to attend in any significant numbers. Calumet High School was 80th and Racine, around in that area. I don’t remember the exact address. JJ: It was a hotbed of unrest, you said. WD: Yeah, a lot of racial turmoil there. JJ: Was it racial turmoil? Or you were young; was it gang or racial? WD: No, it was race. 2 �JJ: It was race. WD: Another school that’s been solidly Black for a long time is South Shore High School. In 1966, it was predominantly white. Now it’s predominantly Black and has been probably since 1969. [00:04:00] JJ: Okay, this is 79th Street and that, but then later on, you get The Woodlawn Organization, What were they doing? Were you familiar with them? TWO. Is that what it’s called? WD: TWO was probably established as a significant entity about 1965, ’66. JJ: This is later. WD: This is later, like I said. Actually, the first house I lived in was 6741 South Avenue, which is in Woodlawn. TWO’s main focus area was 63rd Street, which was a main artery, Cottage Grove, which is a main street. In fact, my parents, Black people didn’t live south of 63rd Street when my parents were teenagers, so the spread of [00:05:00] Black population in the city of Chicago has been gradual but steady. JJ: So, on the South Side, what was the first area of the Black community, the African American community? WD: Famous Black Belt, Black Metropolis around -- actually, it started south of the Loop, and it spread southward from there year after year after year after year, 47th Street, just incrementally block by block by block as whites moved out. Integration, I mean, not integration, the migration from the south is where the Black population in Chicago came from. JJ: So, they’re starting near the Loop somewhere because of downtown jobs? 3 �WD: South Loop was because that’s where the train ended. That’s where you got off the train when you came from the south. There’s actually information on the books that tells you that Blacks from Mississippi and Alabama got off of one train and lived in one area, and Blacks from other southern states got off a different train and lived on the West Side. So, I don’t [00:06:00] remember which group lives where, but that’s kind of how that’s spread out. Jobs are incidental to that. JJ: Okay, so it didn’t have anything to do with jobs. WD: Not particularly, no. It’s a matter of living where -- you know, you get off the train here within that area. Who’s already there? You know people, and you live around your own kind. JJ: What’s your mother and father’s name? WD: My parents were both born and raised in Chicago. They both went to Englewood High School. I think DuSable was the other name. DuSable, Wendell Phillips, and Englewood were the three major Black-attended high schools. There were restrictions, and this is going back to 1945, 1943; there were restrictions for where Blacks could attend school as well. These things weren’t written down, but they just wouldn’t let you transfer in. So, for instance, my mother, who lived on 67th and Evans, was closer to Hyde Park [00:07:00] High School, but she had to travel all the way to Englewood, which is 67th and Stewart, a considerable distance west, because that’s where the Black students went. JJ: And what school was that? WD: That’s Englewood High School. JJ: Englewood, okay. And what was your mom’s name and your dad’s name? 4 �WD: Carlotta Dunbar and Wayne Dunbar. JJ: Okay, and your siblings, or were there any? WD: I have no brothers and sisters. I’m an only child. JJ: Okay. Wait, you said she had to travel? Who was going to travel? WD: Well, it was, you know, you got on the bus. My mother traveled and my father, well, my father lived in Englewood. My father lived on 61st and Racine, so for him, going to Englewood was a matter of coming back east. My mother lived at 67th and Evans. It’s a block off of Cottage Grove, so she had to travel west. Englewood was about 400 East on 63rd Street. JJ: So, how was it growing up then? I mean, [00:08:00] you were growing up in the African American community, right? WD: Right. JJ: And (inaudible) segregated. WD: No. And I guess my life was pretty comfortable because everybody in my neighborhood was Black. By the time we bought houses south of 87th Street, the neighborhood was changing, and I think there was one white family that lived within a block radius, and maybe there were a couple white kids that went to Burnside School with us when we were there, when we graduated. We were part of the Black baby boomers. You know, they don’t really consider, count Blacks as baby boomers, but we were there. And Harlan High School was built in 1963. When it opened, it was, I think, supposed to house like, say, 1,600 students. By the time I got there in 1963, it was overcrowded to the point that [00:09:00] there were 4,600 students. There were over 600 people in my initial graduating class, 5 �and they had mobile units, and they had periods, 1st and 9th, 2nd through 10th, 3rd through 11th, and 4th through 12th, 12 periods of classes to accommodate the volume of students that were there. JJ: And was it gang infested, or was it more stable? Or was it middle class or what type of neighborhood? WD: The area that Harlan High School is in was a middle-class Black community. There was some gang activity, but the gangs were not significantly developed at that time. You had some folks that would hang out because again, like I said, Harlan was pretty much a college prep institution, [00:10:00] so you had students who were really preparing themselves to go to college. And then you had the folks who just wanted to go and get high, smoking up in the washrooms, nothing unusual. Gangs did not really get organized in Chicago until after the ’60s, middle of the ’60s, when they started trying to train the gangs. What was it called? What kind of money did they get from the City? They had some kind of training programs where they tried to -- JJ: Oh, job training programs. WD: Job training programs. JJ: We had the YMCA (inaudible) program on the North Side. I don't know. WD: Well, no, they didn’t call it that on the South Side. They did have a lot of training programs, and they gave this money -- the most famous story is about Jeff Fort and how much money they got to initiate training programs for their membership, to rehabilitate them. 6 �JJ: But I mean, if they had training programs, that means that they already had some kind of inkling of the gangs. WD: Well, the Blackstone [00:11:00] Rangers. JJ: Are you trying to say that it was the poverty programs that started the gangs? WD: No. You know, gang’s a group of young men who hang out because they appreciate each other’s company, and they do things that are a little bit outside the law from time to time. Maybe they’re breaking curfew. Maybe they’re gambling. Maybe they’re drunk and disorderly. You know, maybe they don’t respect the law. Maybe they’re not being as respectful as they should be, but they were not set up to be criminal institutions, which they became after the ’60s. There was a change in focus among the gangs to consolidate their power, and they actually had connections and affiliations. There were all sorts of little subgroups of gangs all over the South Side, in each little [00:12:00] quarter. In various different communities, they had some type of different thing. JJ: They tried to go in branches or something? WD: Those subgroups of folks considered themselves to be Blackstone Rangers or whatever, and I don't know the gang history that well, but at a certain point, the Rangers consolidated subgroups and formed the Black P. Stone Nation, and by that time, if you look at the records, they were a criminal institution. They were doing the extortion. They were selling drugs, more than just marijuana. They were probably selling hard drugs, but I don’t have the information. I can’t speak on that. I was never a gang member. 7 �JJ: But do you remember what I’m saying? They were around, what street, 63rd Street or -- WD: There was gang activity everywhere. There was gang activity from -- I mean, Chatham, Chatham is one of the most solid middle-class Black communities in the country, and until [00:13:00] my eldest started passing on their properties to grandchildren, it’s been Black, well maintained, no boarded-up houses. Take exception to this latest real estate issues. There were limited foreclosures, so it was very stable. Yet still, you had areas. You had some folks still trying to be in a gang around Tinley Park, which is 90th and King Drive. You had gang activity along 95th Street, Syndicate Rangers up there. It was just cropping up. It was just a reality. JJ: It just started cropping up in the mid-’60s. WD: In the mid-’60s. JJ: Was it becoming unstable in the neighborhood? Did that contribute to it, or was it still stable when you got there? WD: The neighborhood remained stable until maybe as late as the ’80s. And then [00:14:00] at this point, I think there was more shootings. I think the harder drugs may have changed attitudes, and again, it was more a business venture, and then some turf issues. JJ: The drugs contributed, or no? Something must’ve contributed to making it more - I mean, there’s always youth hanging out together. But you don’t think something contributed, some outside force? 8 �WD: I couldn’t speak to it. I don’t even have a theory on it. I just know that there was a rise in violence. JJ: And this began in the mid-’60s. WD: Yeah. JJ: Ok, but other than that, before that, the neighborhood was fine, good place to live? WD: Well, the gangs never got the best of Chatham. It’s probably worse now than it has ever been. Now we’re concerned that we don’t have safety in our own communities because the youngest people who have no respect for the law, nor do they also have no respect for the community. So, [00:15:00] where they’re trying to settle a beef with one another with a .22 or a .38 pistol, they’re just shooting into a crowd and shooting across the street. They’re kind of indiscriminate. And their gang affiliations don’t hold them in any way responsible for their actions. You know, there’s no OGs; there’s no old guys that can come and say, “Hey, you’re claiming to be P. Stone,” or, “You’re claiming to be Blackstone. We need you to cut this out.” They just do not respond, and that’s the current phenomenon. But there was never, in Chatham, any significant gang activity that disrupted the community. JJ: And you’d never joined the gang. WD: No. JJ: How did you look at the gang then? WD: Well, I recognized their presence, but they weren’t doing anything I was interested in doing. And they were self-serving. They were people who were at 9 �a point in life and getting drunk and hanging out and [00:16:00] getting drunk the next day and hanging out, and that’s all they wanted to do, get their hustle on, get some money. That didn’t appeal to me. JJ: So, what was appealing to you then? WD: Well, you know, I was in high school, preparing for the future. Where it was, I didn’t know. Biggest issue for me was Vietnam. I had the unique occurrence of watching footage of Vietnam and the civil rights activities in the south on the news every night. As part of the news segment, there’d be these statistics on how many people were killed in Vietnam, troop movements, this, that, and the other, and then they might do a spot on the civil rights struggle in the south. And [00:17:00] at 16 and 17, Vietnam is very far away; the war is very far away, but at 18, we were required to fill out our Selective Service forms. We were required to register with the government our whereabouts as part of the Selective Services and then have our names entered into a lottery if we weren’t in school. And our names would be drawn, and then we would be conscripted to fight, or conscripted to join the Army. That was a little disturbing, so by the time I turned 18, I had to decide whether or not I was going to go to war or go to college, so I opted for college. But again, watching these things unfold on television, it didn’t make sense to me that I would go to Vietnam and fight for freedom for Vietnamese people in Vietnam when Black people couldn’t go down south and drink from water fountains and couldn’t eat at lunch counters. You know, they’re still living in houses with no running water, that [00:18:00] things significantly hadn’t changed since -- 10 �JJ: This was talking to community, or this is something that you’re reading? WD: Well, this is something that I saw on television. These were things that were coming together in front of me. JJ: But they’re hitting you. WD: They’re hitting me. And the conversations that we were having in school primarily centered around the war. You know, we’d had our skirmishes, and I’d had friends who were, quote/unquote, run out of white business areas like Roseland. They literally were chased out of Roseland at dark by white kids, and I didn’t have that particular experience, but I was confronted with white people, white kids in other areas when we traveled on the bus and things like that. JJ: You were experiencing prejudice and -- WD: Prejudice and racism, yeah. JJ: But then it’s your government, or it’s your country. How are you looking at it? WD: (laughs) [00:19:00] JJ: Are you looking at it like, “This is my country, my beloved country”? WD: Well, up to the point. Now, you know, I didn’t have a significant world view. I’m living in an insulated community, working-class community where you’ve got teachers, bus drivers, steel mill workers, housewives, people going to college, people with college education. You’ve got just a rich mix of working-class people in my community and I’m seeing all the time, and so that’s what America’s all about. Now, we happen to be Black, so for me to go to 95th and Western and be confronted by white kids who are calling me nigger and say, “What you doing here,” and this kind of stuff, to go and file an application for a job and have them 11 �put it in the garbage, you know, [00:20:00] those kind of things contrast greatly with the American ideals. JJ: Was the discussion related to this, what you’re saying now? You said you were having discussions in school. WD: Conversations finally came to that. I kind of came to my own political sense by myself. We were looking at things more individualized as students. In 1966, at Harlan High School, there was no Black Student Union. There was no particular historically based Black consciousness movement. We were aware that we were Black people, but it wasn’t based on study. It wasn’t based on our understanding of history. It wasn’t based on our understanding of our relationship with white people, but we just knew we were Black, [00:21:00] and in certain cases, we were catching hell because of that. We could always hear stories from our parents about their confrontations with white people. JJ: And they grew up in Chicago, your parents. WD: Yeah. Well -- JJ: They were having the same problems? WD: They were having issues with discrimination on the job. Their issues, for instance, again, like I said, we moved at 8900 South in about 1957, and there was a local savings and loan, Chesterfield Savings and Loan. They declined to allow my parents to have a savings account there, based on race. JJ: Clear. WD: Straight out. “We won’t let you put --” JJ: “Don’t put no money.” 12 �WD: What excuse do you have when you won’t let somebody put money in your bank? And we’re not talking about a checking account; we’re talking about a savings account. JJ: They just basically told them, “You can’t come here”? WD: “We’re not going to accept you.” Yeah. “We’re not going to do business with you.” [00:22:00] So, in all the most subtle forms, and that was a conversation that I heard from my parents; they talked about racism in the north as being extremely subtle. They said, “At least (audio cuts out) stand with white people.” So, these were things that were just common to me. And again, I don’t remember having a lot of discussions about civil rights with my classmates, but among the young men, the war was preeminent because we all knew we were going to have to deal with that at some point. I do know people that joined. I know I lost a cousin to Vietnam. He was in the country like six months and got killed in a helicopter. I have classmates that didn’t return. JJ: (inaudible) you had to go through school? WD: Well, I didn’t go to Vietnam. I didn’t join the service. I didn’t participate in the Selective Service system because I joined the Black Panther Party, and I actually sent in my [00:23:00] Selective Service card and told them I couldn’t participate. JJ: What do you mean? WD: I sent a letter in. I told them. I was like, “Hey, I’m in the people’s army. Our rules state clearly that we cannot be in any other army, and consequently I will not be able to participate in your war.” JJ: Just like that? 13 �WD: Just like that. I may still somewhere have in my files a copy of that later. However, that wasn’t what got me out of the military. But that is what I did. I knew people that had fled, were conscientious objectors, and at least one brother did some time for that. JJ: So, now, this is ’68 because of the Panthers and -- WD: Yeah, this is ’67, ’68. I joined the Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party in 1968. They were doing organizing in the summer of ’68, and I kind of put my name -- JJ: When you say they were organizing, what do you mean? WD: They had not established a headquarters, but they -- [00:24:00] JJ: They hadn’t established a headquarters. WD: In the summer of 1968, there was no headquarters for the Illinois Chapter. There was no leadership cadre. There was no structure in the summer of 1968. They were just forming a structure, the basis for the party. JJ: So, how was the organizing? How were you forming? WD: It was word of mouth. There were some people who were Panthers who were making themselves known, and they were looking. I guess you could say they were recruiting. JJ: So, they were recruiting on a door-to-door basis or just a friend thing? WD: I found out, I was on a college campus. JJ: So, the campus in the colleges? WD: Yeah. JJ: They were recruiting? Okay. 14 �WD: They were recruiting, I guess, to some extent, on college campuses, and I was fortunate, the summer before I started college, to be on campus and get to meet some upperclassmen and to see [00:25:00] actually a poster, a flyer on a bulletin board that said the Panthers were here. So, you know, I said, “Well, where are they? I don’t see them.” One day, a guy comes up, and he puts his hand on my shoulder, and he says, “Are you Billy Dunbar?” I was like, “Yes.” He says, “Are you interested in learning about the Panthers?” I said, “Yes.” He said, “Come with me,” and that’s how it all began. JJ: So, they had specific people that were just organizers? WD: Yeah. JJ: And they were in the students. Now, there was a lot of speaking too, right? Was that related to the recruitment? WD: At the time I joined -- JJ: It was just word of mouth? WD: Right, it was word of mouth. At the time I joined, it was based on what little I knew about the party from television, from the newspapers, and I’m going to have to say I must’ve read a newspaper, a Black Panther Party newspaper and then made aware of their 10-point program because it was very concise, [00:26:00] and it spoke to a lot of issues that Black people had been coping with in America for a long time. And then it had the most important part, the tenth point that talked about the UN-supervised plebiscite, where Black people would get a chance to determine, or to speak on their own national destiny. (car alarm beeps) I don’t know if you want that horn in there. 15 �(break in audio) JJ: You were talking about the plebiscite. Do you remember that? WD: The important part of the 10th point, the 10th point of the 10-point program, is that it speaks to a need. It speaks to the fact that Black people, who were brought to America in chains and forced to work for generations without any economic compensation, had never been allowed to choose their own destiny collectively. [00:27:00] Nobody’s ever asked us what we thought about being here. Nobody ever asked us, did we recognize ourselves as a group? Nobody ever gave us a thought one way or the other, and we need to be able to collectively decide our future. Malcolm X pressed the issue of our condition as a matter of human rights, and the Black Panther Party came after Malcolm X and carried that issue forward again. Everything that the Black Panther Party has done has really based itself on human rights issues as opposed to civil rights issues. So, when I looked into scope of the platform of the program, I said, “This is what I want to do. This is where I need to be.” You know, a lot is made about President Kennedy, and he's a hero and [00:28:00] progressive and all the rest of this stuff, but one of his statements that he made is that, “Ask not what the country can do for you, but ask what you can do for the country.” And so, the concept of making the world a better place than you found it was appealing, and it was progressive, and it inspired a lot of people. So, as I said, even though I was a young Black man growing up in America, insulated in my Black community, I felt like I would have an opportunity to do the best for my country that I could do. And when my country rejected so many Blacks offhandedly, as evidenced by the civil rights 16 �struggle, then I shifted focus, and I said, “Well, you know, maybe we should be doing for ourselves. Maybe we should at least investigate that part.” JJ: So, this was a whole thing of self-determination? WD: Self-determination, [00:29:00] exactly. The best thing, one of the best things that happened by joining the Black Panther Party was the reading that we were required to do. Reading Frantz Fanon, The Wretched of the Earth, which is probably the basis for Black Panther philosophy and ideology, simple concept that Huey and Bobby looked to the Black people in America as a colony, similar to all the colonial states that Europe held in Africa, but Black people were a colony within the boundaries of the United States. And so, from that principle, we had not been allowed to achieve our own self-determination. The relationships were very similar, especially if you go by the outline of Frantz Fanon, the relationship between the colonists and the colonizer, because we certainly were colonized. All of our value structures were based on white people’s visions [00:30:00] and views. Even though we weren’t white, we used the same value structures that they used, except they could use it against us. So, The Wretched of the Earth is a primary source of reference, and it still holds true to today. JJ: When you did these readings, was it like a study group or (inaudible) classes? How were they run? WD: When the chapter finally got a headquarters in November of 1968, and -- JJ: This was on Madison? WD: This is on West Madison, Madison and Western. They started having political orientation classes. And some classes were just general political information 17 �classes for the public, and then there were other classes that were a little more detailed, which required reading, for people who were going to become party members. JJ: Oh, so it was a division that became the -- WD: Pretty much, because there was like -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) classes, and [00:31:00] this is more disciplined. WD: Right. They couldn’t require that people who were coming in who were curious about the party program, couldn’t require that they read the Red Book, read up on Marxism and Leninism, Frantz Fanon, various other pamphlets, Malcolm X. They couldn’t require that of the public, but if you’re going to be part of the organization, you had to be knowledgeable. JJ: So, you had to read the Red Book. WD: You had to read. There were assignments. JJ: Leninism and all that. WD: Now, when I finally got to Madison and Western, that’s when I met Fred Hampton, and at that initial time, I’m not sure if Che was the minister of education or not, because they had another brother teaching political orientation class. I want to say -- JJ: This was Billy? WD: Yeah, Billy “Che” Brooks. He was the minister of education, but they had another brother we called [00:32:00] Teach, who actually taught class. And someone asked a question of Fred once, “Well, this political orientation class, what’s that about?” He said, “How long does that take?” And Fred explained that that was 18 �where you would learn the ideology of the Black Panther Party. That’s where you would learn the principles. That’s where you would learn to understand and explain the platform and the programs of the party. And so, somebody else is still asking, “Well, how long does that take?” He says, “Well, think of it as a six-hour college course, where you’re going to be able to learn the basics of the party.” And so, I took it at that. JJ: Had you heard of Fred Hampton before? WD: No. I was not familiar with Fred Hampton until I got to Madison Avenue. And then conversation -- JJ: (inaudible) to this conversation. WD: Right. So, conversations after that around who was in charge, who was chairman, the structure [00:33:00] and all that, then that was presented to me. And shortly after I heard Fred speak, then I began to understand why he was in the position he was in. Initially, all the brothers was just brothers. You know, it was just some knowledgeable people serious about making a positive change to the Black people, and it was all good. But when Fred spoke, you could see his understanding of things. You could get a feel for his sincerity. He was extremely motivational. JJ: Well, you wanted to join the Panthers why? Some people draw an issue (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). WD: It was the most important group to be with. I didn’t see myself joining the NAACP. I didn’t see myself joining Corps. Operation Breadbasket, which was Jesse Jackson’s organization -- 19 �JJ: What was the problem with the NAACP? They’re a good organization. WD: Too conservative. Corps, it [00:34:00] wasn’t for me with them, but they were more job oriented, not that Corps was a bad organization; they just weren’t, quote/unquote, progressive enough for me. Breadbasket -- JJ: You definitely wanted to do something (inaudible). WD: Right. I was motivated to do something. Again, I’m 18, 19 years old, and my options are Vietnam or -- so, I’m not going to be a conscript and go fight for rights of other people when my people don’t have rights at home. JJ: So, that was clear. WD: That was my choice. JJ: That was clear in your head. WD: That’s clear in my head, and that was it. JJ: “There’s something wrong here, and I’m not going to do it.” WD: It’s the biggest wrong I could see. JJ: “You’re not going to force me into the service.” WD: Right. JJ: Okay. And so, now you’re looking for involvement. WD: Right. JJ: Had you been an activist before then? [00:35:00] WD: Nope, no activism. JJ: And no demonstrations or anything? WD: Nope, no politics whatsoever. JJ: Just, you were reading or -- 20 �WD: Huh? JJ: So, you were reading. I mean, out of nowhere, you -- WD: Well, no. I mean, this is a matter of, I’ve told people in recent years that there’s about a -- JJ: They weren’t paying you. The Panthers were not paying. WD: The Panthers did not pay a dime. We were volunteers. And let me go on record of saying that for my comrades, the people that joined the Black Panther Party are some of the most courageous individuals that have ever lived. No matter what the contribution, when you put the [tam?] on, when you put that Red Book in your pocket, you were a marked individual, and you stood for principles that the US government only espouses and never backs up. The Black Panther Party is one of the most important volunteer organizations to ever exist. Okay, [00:36:00] so many times, you hear about people who do heroic acts; they see a car on fire, and they snatch the door open and pull somebody out. Well, when you join the Black Panther Party, you’re basically doing that. You’re basically putting yourself between the police dog and the police and the citizen, and you’re showing Black people how to defend themselves and define themselves. And hands down, nobody’s done what we did. Nobody did it before then. Nobody’s done it since. Garvey has still on record the largest political organization of Black people in America, but he did not interface; he did not defend the masses of Black people. He did not educate them so they could defend themselves. He did not provide them any kind of short-term programs, but he was building a 21 �nation overseas. But again, the Panther Party members, my comrades, are the most courageous people that [00:37:00] I’ve ever met. JJ: You mentioned something important now. You said that he did not educate them so they could defend themselves. So, the Panther Party, was that one of their missions? WD: Well, I’m not sure. The Black Panther Party originated in 1960 as the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense. Right now, I’m a member of the Illinois Chapter history project, and that’s given me an opportunity to communicate with members of the original central staff of the Black Panther Party to learn and understand how the Black Panther Party came into being, its principles, its practices. And so, to your point, the Black Panther Party originally was the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense. It was responding to police brutality and oppression in the east Oakland area, which is not uncommon, which was not uncommon in Chicago, Boston, [00:38:00] Atlanta. In every Black community, we’ve had some kind of conflict where the police were trying to suppress the masses of Black people, so I think that self-defense is the primary human right. After 400 years of overt oppression and slavery, the question is, when they marched in Memphis, they had signs that says, “We are men.” We’re still trying to assert our humanity 400 years after the fact, and we’re still battling the same battles against racism that we’ve always battled, and it’s not going away. So, for the police to be a tool of oppression, Black Panther Party spoke for self-defense. They said, “We’re going to patrol. We’re going to make sure that if the brother’s wrong, he did a crime, you’re going to take him to jail, but you’re not going to break his head before he 22 �gets there,” and that’s how they started. So, in Chicago, we had conflicts with [00:39:00] the police as well. They were brutal. They subjected to take you in on a traffic stop and beat you up, extort money from you, and my father’s friend has suffered that indignity. I was aware that I’d been harassed as a young man, driving my father’s new car. JJ: Your father told you that he had been beaten up or -- WD: Friends, his friends and associates, they’ve talked of past stories, many stories about that. We still -- JJ: Like white groups or vigilante groups or -- WD: We’re just talking about interfacing with the police. JJ: Oh the police. WD: There were cases in terms of, I talked about how Blacks were not able to live in certain communities until the whites moved out. And so, as one Black would move on the block, then you’d be subject to harassment from whites who didn’t think Blacks should be there. [00:40:00] And so, there were stories that I overheard of how you would have to call back and have your neighbors, your old neighbors come and your family members come, and literally in one case, surround your house, showing your weapons, and let the locals know that you’re going to live here and you’re going to live here and defend your house because you have a right to do so. And that’s ahead of the Black Panther Party. That’s local Black citizens asserting themselves. And so, again, this is all part of what I’m aware of as a young man. And again, as it comes time to fill out that Selective Service card and join the Army, I’m not doing it. It was a big leap in a 23 �short period of time, but it made all the sense in the world for me to join the Black Panther Party. I was familiar with Black fraternities on campus, I went to Chicago State College at the time; [00:41:00] it’s now Chicago State University, and they had a big presence. They had Kappas; they had Sigmas; they had Alphas, and none of them had progressive programs for the Black community, and none of them interacted with high school students. None of them interacted with the local community. Even at that time, Englewood was a poorer community. It was still middle class, but it was lower middle class in terms of income, and it was a big issue between being money poor and values poor. In the ’60s, all Black people basically had the same values. As time has gone by, there’s been a shift in values across the country and in our community, which is why young people are disrespectful, which is why young people don’t have respect for life, which is why they shoot randomly, which is why they talk poorly, why they don’t show any love for their children or themselves. But that’s a whole nother issue. [00:42:00] The point I’m making is that there were some changes in the world, and the party had a place in all of that. JJ: So, now you’re a member of the party. What’s your volunteer? What kind of volunteering were you doing? WD: Well, initially everyone in the party sold newspapers and worked in the breakfast program, based on your abilities and your -- JJ: The first step was -- WD: The first step was newspapers and then -- JJ: -- sold newspapers and worked in the Breakfast for Children program? 24 �WD: Right. I think probably the Breakfast for Children program even before newspapers because that way, we had to be there at probably -- what was that -like five o’clock in the morning to be there to handle the children, open up the facility, prepare the food. JJ: Where was the breakfast program ran? WD: I worked in Madden Park, which is [00:43:00] basically 37th and Indiana, no, not Indiana; it’s closer to Cottage Grove. And there was one; the initial program was at Better Boys Foundation, but I didn’t go to that because I was the South Side. They gave me some leeway. JJ: Was that in the Better Boys Foundation? WD: Yeah, it was actually in the Better Boys Foundation. So, as I understand -- JJ: I think they’re located around Kedzie. WD: Yeah, they’re Kedzie. They’re 1500 South on Kedzie. In the first six months or so, I think we probably had four programs going. Again, I was just at Madden Park. And just like in any other organization, you kind of know the work you did, and you know the people you’re working with. You don’t necessarily know everything that was going on in that organization. I wasn’t -- JJ: You were doing what, dishes and (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? WD: We did dishes. [00:44:00] We served kids. You might have a turn to cook. They find you couldn’t cook, you didn’t cook again, but you know, food preparation or serving the children or cleanup or security, any combination of those things. JJ: Was there any interaction with the kids? 25 �WD: Yeah. There was some conversation and talk. There was politicizing that you were letting them know what was going on, who was doing this, why we were doing it. In some cases, you might engage in a conversation and find out why a child would be coming to breakfast. We didn’t make a requirement that they fill out a form based on their income. We didn’t ask them how much money they had. They showed up; they were hungry; they got fed. It wasn’t a social center, but it was a social service to them. At that time, there were no free programs of the sort in the country. No federal, no state institutions were feeding children in the morning. [00:45:00] This is before Head Start. This is before free lunch programs. This is before free eye testing. The only thing that was going on comparable to what the Panther Party did was free immunizations. They were giving kids like shots for whooping cough and measles and that kind of stuff. That was free, because I went. My mother took me down, and I got those shots. But the breakfast program, that kind of stuff, dental care, none of that was going on in 1968, 1969, 1970, didn’t exist. JJ: How did you raise money for the breakfast program, and what methods were used for that? WD: One of the people who joined shortly after I did was Wanda Ross, and she was given the task of setting up the breakfast program. We would get instructions from [00:46:00] the coast. We would get instructions in terms of what party programs and what initiatives should be undertaken. And then we would have to carry those things out. So, Wanda Ross was responsible for coordinating, setting up the program and coordinating the program, meaning that she managed to 26 �create a methodology by which she solicited donations, cash money, or food. She helped set up locations, and she helped distribute the food to the locations. The money that she collected for the food for the breakfast program went to purchase supplies for the program. JJ: You said these were donations? WD: These were donations. JJ: So, did they have like (inaudible)? WD: They actually had to set up a not-for-profit organization in order to take the checks and process this money. The money did not go to the Black Panther Party. [00:47:00] It went directly to the not-for-profit organization. It was chartered by the State of Illinois. It was called Free Services, Inc., and Wanda still has those documents to this day. JJ: Now, are these meetings with people with money, basically what I’m saying, they’re meeting in people’s houses? Are these fundraisers, or are these like collections that are done on the ground? I remember more like what Lucy Montgomery, to her house, we (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WD: The collection of funds happened on many different levels. At each rally, we talked about the programs that we had initiated, and we asked people to make contributions. In [00:48:00] parallel to that, individuals who registered at party programs would sponsor meet-and-greets at their homes. JJ: Meet-and-greets, they were called? WD: Right. JJ: I think they called them coffees. 27 �WD: Right, coffees, whatever, the meet-and-greets, where you go, and somebody would have a social gathering. JJ: They were called meet-and-greets? WD: I believe so. And people who were interested in supporting the party, contributing to the party would be in attendance, and party members would go and mix with the crowd and hopefully leave with donations. (audio cuts out) were in attendance who would donate to parties, party chapters all across the country anonymously because they couldn’t afford to be directly associated with the party because the government was trying to suppress us. I didn’t participate in any of those type of fundraisers. I do know, in cases where Model Cities grants, Model Cities was this City of Chicago program, and they took money from the [00:49:00] Model Cities program and gave that to the gang members. They were using that money for job training for gang members, and that’s part of what happened with the gangs in terms of them establishing a more prominence and a more independence. They saw the money, and they went to work to secure it, and they turned that money into something else for themselves. JJ: So, Model Cities was giving the gang members money. WD: Mm-hmm, through the Model Cities. JJ: It was also creating urban renewal. (inaudible) WD: Yes, which is why -- think about Model Cities. I talked about the expansion of Black people living in Chicago on the South Side. So, they spread from the Black Belt, which was south of the Loop, 35th and Cottage Grove, east and west to State Street to the lake, and they moved southward, so 43rd Street, 47th Street 28 �[00:50:00] Regal Theater was a hub of activity, was a hub of the Black Belt, up to 51st Street and Grand Boulevard. That was a solid Black community all through the ’30s and ’40s. The Regal Theater has its own fame. Forty-seventh Street and South Center was just a hub of activity. It was like Harlem. And as Blacks moved further south into Woodlawn, again, my parents talk about 63rd and Cottage Grove being a borderline. You couldn’t go west of Cottage; you couldn’t go south of 63rd Street. So, my parents eventually were able to live at 67th and Evans, which is just across the border, so again, another expansion. Well, that’s Woodlawn. In the ’60s, it’s alleged that the gangs, in conjunction with the University of Chicago and all this Model Cities thing, we talk about urban renewal, ran the Black property owners [00:51:00] out of Woodlawn, burn them out, terrorize them, whatever, gang activity. Now you’re talking about destabilizing community. The Blackstone Rangers, which were created on -well, they had to pick a name, so they were on Blackstone, so they called themselves the Blackstone Rangers, and that gang, in conjunction with this money and some other issues -JJ: They were working with the University of Chicago. WD: Well, it served the University of Chicago. University of Chicago was -- JJ: But there was arson going on. Is that what you mean? WD: That’s right. JJ: Was there arson going on? WD: There was probably arson going on. There was a lot of slumlords at that time. JJ: You said that they ran the property owners out. 29 �WD: They did. The area between 60 -- JJ: How did they do that? How would they do that? WD: Through intimidation. JJ: You know people that were intimidated? WD: I do not. I don’t know anybody who was [00:52:00] directly intimidated, but the stories continue. You could see the gang -- JJ: This was stories that existed at that time. WD: Right. JJ: In the newspaper or just -- WD: In the newspaper and in the grapevine, and probably TWO will have a better reference of that as well. TWO was a community-based organization that was trying to counter the gang activity to some degree to stabilize the community. They ended up being more of the current landowners for this region south of University of Chicago. JJ: So, they became the landowners. WD: After about four years, they began to buy this land. Woodlawn has only started being rebuilt in the last 20 years. For 30 years, Woodlawn was as barren as Roosevelt Road was after the King riots. But the King riots took Roosevelt Road out, west of Circle, Circle to Western. The riots, they burned all that [00:53:00] property down. But Woodlawn was depleted over a period of years because the University of Chicago wanted to control -- they wanted to create a buffer for themselves. University of Chicago created a buffer, no housing between 61st Street and 63rd Street. Numerous properties, multi-unit buildings were just razed, 30 �torn down, so you could almost see from 63rd Street to 61st Street, a buffer around the University of Chicago. The University of Chicago was given the right to change -- they weren’t restricted by any building codes. They had no limitations. They could redesign the area any way they wanted to if the Mayor Daley and the city council gave them that right to do an urban study in that region. So, up until the last 20 years, they had not even redeveloped that area, sitting on the land, but there is evidence that the gangs were complicit [00:54:00] in destabilizing the community and running out the few local property owners there were. JJ: You’re saying that they got monies from Model Cities. WD: They got money from Model Cities to train, to give the membership -- JJ: Job training? WD: Job training and education and the rest of the stuff, but there’s not a lot of evidence that they had jobs after that. JJ: So, they had job training, but there was no jobs. WD: Right. JJ: But the significant thing is that Model Cities was connected with urban renewal. WD: Right. There was a connection between -- JJ: And Mayor Daley. WD: Yep. JJ: And they also gave money to the gangs. WD: Yes. 31 �JJ: That’s the significant thing. In the community or the newspapers and the grapevine, it is being said that the property owners were being evicted, or being terrorized, [00:55:00] rather than being evicted, by the gangs. Is that what you’re saying? WD: When Black people tried to move beyond the boundaries of their communities, the biggest fear that white people had was that their property values were going to plummet. So, if you have, in your streets, a group of young people who are not being held in check by the law, who are running criminal activities, who are intimidating locals, if there’s arson or if there’s just a lack of police response, if they’re destabilizing your community and your tenants are moving out, your property values are going down. And at some point, you want to sell or get out of the area to protect yourself and protect your values. So, you know, the reality is what the reality is. Now, you may not be able to show [00:56:00] who was doing what when, and then again, you might be able to find that out now because now after 50 years, there’s a lot of history out here, so some of these activities have been documented. JJ: During that time, you’re growing up in a segregated situation; racism exists, but now the Panthers are beginning to work with (inaudible). Were you there when they had the Rainbow Coalition, or had you heard of the Rainbow Coalition at that time, or did you come later? WD: The point about the Panthers was that -- JJ: Because that was 1969, but when did you join the party? WD: I joined the party in 1968. I am what you call a short-timer. 32 �JJ: Okay. What does that mean? WD: I joined in 1968, let’s say, officially when the chapter opened its headquarters in November. Through the winter, [00:57:00] breakfast programs and other activities, we began to hear stories about agents and provocateurs. We began to hear that we were going to -- JJ: What kind of stories? What do you mean? WD: Well, there was evidence from the coast and other chapters who had been established before us that the police and the FBI were infiltrating, and they were trying to destabilize us. So, that kind of worked under my confidence to a certain degree because we couldn’t, at some point, be sure who was an agent and who was not an agent. So, in some cases, if there was someone from your community that joined when you joined and you knew their background, you could vouch for one another, but very soon, you had individuals who had no ties, and so they became suspect. So, the COINTELPRO worked on these kind of insecurities to undermine us. JJ: What do you mean? WD: Well, if [00:58:00] you allege that there’s a traitor in your ranks and you can’t identify him, then you become suspicious. Then there’s trust issues that you have with people who were not what they say they were or who appear not to be what they are. Then you have people who, in fact, later on, through depositions and other statements, identified themselves as government agents in court testimony. 33 �JJ: Okay, so now you have government agents, and then you also have this distrust going around. And that was part of the COINTELPRO? WD: It was all part of COINTELPRO. JJ: And did that do anything to the party? WD: It destabilized us to a great degree. We had, in my short time, and like I said, I joined in November; I separated in July of 1969 while Fred was in jail [00:59:00] pending appeal on the so-called ice cream conviction. JJ: And you separated why? WD: Well, at that time, there was a problem with leadership. There was a problem with direction and focus. Now, in hindsight, when the party opened in 1968, J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI already had a plan in the works on how to destroy the Black Panther Party. So, when we opened our doors, they were ready for us, and we had no idea who they were and what they were bringing. We were new Panthers, a new chapter. We didn’t have seasoned veterans from anyplace else. We were all local, developing the programs as we heard, developing our understanding of the party platform and the party programs. So, it’s not like getting somebody with experience battling the FBI. [01:00:00] We didn’t know what we were up against. And it so happened that the progression of COINTELPRO, progression of Hoover and company was that they were going to eradicate the Black Panther Party by any means necessary, and it all culminated in about 18 months. In 1969, when Fred Hampton was murdered, that was part of a nationwide sweep of the FBI to eliminate the Black Panther Party by eliminating leadership. Prior to that, the infiltrators, the provocateurs, particularly 34 �William O’Neal, who, you would be in the car with him, trying to go get newspapers or go handle some regular business, he said, “Well, you know, we ought to take out that store there. He’s a capitalist. We should just go in there and rob him, raise some money for the people.” Fortunately, he wasn’t driving, so the driver said, “We were told to do this and this, and we’re not stopping for that bullshit.” George Sams [01:01:00] was an instigator. JJ: Were you in the car when that happened? WD: I was not with O’Neal, but I heard directly from people who were with O’Neal who would do that stuff. JJ: So, he was already suspect. WD: Well, he possessed a certain form of madness, and so you just say, “Well, this is a crazy guy. We just know better.” JJ: There were some crazy guys in the movement. WD: A lot of people were crazy to be in the Black Panther Party. JJ: Because you had some street people in the (inaudible). WD: We had plenty of street people. JJ: So, some of them were panicked, talking crazy anyway, because we had them in the Young Lords (inaudible). WD: (laughs) I just don’t want to say that it was street people only, because here’s the thing. I might’ve been a college student, right? And the Black Panther Party was not unlike joining the Army, meaning that you’re thrown in there with a lot of different people from different walks of life. So, we began a rich mix between street, middle class, college, working class, [01:02:00] and in and amongst all 35 �that, you had to be a little crazy to go up against the United States government and demand your rights, but there was some people who were more foolish or more adventurous than others. JJ: “Adventurous” is the word. WD: And leadership would tell us to quash that adventurism, follow the party line, which is why we read Mao, because he offered his discipline and instruction. And I’m told that the Illinois Chapter was -- JJ: You’re saying you took them straight out of the -- WD: We took quotes from the Red Book, and we applied them as best we could. JJ: Military Writings? WD: Military Writings. The Military Writings was a separate document from the Red Book, also (inaudible). There’s a whole I don't know how many volumes of writings that Mao had, but we did use the Military Writings of Chairman Mao, and we used the Red Book as examples of how to be disciplined. The Black Panther Party had 26 rules to follow for membership, in addition [01:03:00] to the 10-point program and platform, no drugs, no alcohol, no theft from the people, just a whole litany of behaviors that we were supposed to follow to be a member, in addition to the 10-point program and platform, and again, the study and the discussions which made sure that people were not just hanging out. You had to be able to know the party line and express the party line. I came to the understanding that through my studies, the concepts of guerilla war, that any party member should be able to set up a chapter, set up the programs, politicize, propagandize, and carry the message forward. That was my understanding, so 36 �when I separated in July, then I took that concept with me every place else I went. And we found that there were many people [01:04:00] emulating the Black Panther Party who were not members, who had never joined but who were eager, or eager and willing to follow those guidelines, because at the time, we were known as the Vanguard Party. JJ: So, you’re doing all this studying, and you have the -- my question was, as you expand to other communities, and you’re also looking to raise some money in that. WD: The bigger concept of the Black Panther Party was that capitalism was a major issue, that capitalism, in addition to racism, perpetuated poverty in the Black community and that exploitation by the capitalists, exploitation by the businesses and industry was really a bigger issue that all people in the country had to deal with. So, I’m not sure where the concept [01:05:00] or why it was felt necessary to reach out beyond the Black community, but the notion that all poor people were being oppressed by the same government, by the same industry brough about the basis for the Rainbow Coalition because at some point, it was proven and shown and discovered that you had poor whites; you had poor Hispanics, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans; you had Native Americans, who were all being oppressed by the same government, and so at that point, it was only reasonable that a coalition among oppressed groups would be a stronger front against the government. And out of that, I think, is where the Rainbow Coalition happened. JJ: But now, these groups were already functioning as organizations. 37 �WD: My understanding was that the Young Patriots was already established. Young Lords Organization was an established group. JJ: But these were already established groups. WD: Right. [01:06:00] JJ: And so, they came together with the Panthers. WD: They came in coalition with the Panthers. JJ: Coalition, an alliance or a coalition. WD: Like an alliance, but -- JJ: Was it an organization, or was it an alliance? WD: It was more of a collaboration. It was more an alliance. We did have a mandate unspoken. When we would have white people try to join or participate in Black Panther Party, we would tell them to go to your neighborhoods, go to your communities, go to your parents, go to your families, and organize there, and fight racism in your community. JJ: And actually, that’s what the Young Lords also, the Young Patriots, we went into our community to organize our communities. In fact, that was like a mandate. WD: That was the methodology. JJ: I mean, is that what you’re saying? Because I’m not -- WD: Yeah. In order to defeat the bigger enemy, which was capitalism, and oppression of poor people, was to organize in your own communities. JJ: Because you would [01:07:00] naturally know the people better. WD: You know, the Black Panther Party, in each locale, was indigenous. We were products or our localities. We had specific issues in one region, different from 38 �another region. The Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party had branches in southern Illinois, in Rockford, and in each of those little locations, Peoria, Illinois, there were specific issues that had to be addressed by party members there. We had one chapter -JJ: But each neighborhood, each locale was different? WD: To a degree, right. JJ: To a degree. I mean, there was a general agreement with each locale, the same conditions in place, like Mao was saying. WD: Right, same conditions in place. So, we spoke to local needs with a bigger, with a global aspect. We were one of the first ones to think globally and act globally. [01:08:00] The Black Panther Party was one of the first organizations, national organization, that recognized what you would call today as multiculturalism, through Huey’s inter-communalism. We supported gays. We supported anybody who’s being oppressed by the government, by the capitalists. And again, we operated locally, but we thought nationally. JJ: Since many people are growing up in a city that’s segregated, was it easy to make this coalition, or were there some sticking points there? WD: Well, you know, when the boot is on your neck, you want the boot off. That was one of the things, and then Fred became a great orator and talked about these kind of concepts and said, “You want some relief,” and so if getting with the Panthers and getting with whoever is going to get this off you, then you would do that. [01:09:00] And so, by practice, we were able to explain and show people that racism, there was no place for that. It was used to divide people. And we 39 �showed them that we were willing to work with them even if they might not have been initially willing to work with us. We gave them tools to understand their circumstance. One of the points of the party program is that we want education that exposes the true nature of society and teaches us our true place in this society. Well, having going through Fanon, and we knew out history; we knew ourselves to be descendants of slaves, descendants of free people from Africa, and we were entitled to better. So, we understood our relationship with the government. We understood our relationship with industry, with business, whereas unfortunately white people probably felt that if they worked hard enough on the assembly line, they would become chairman of the board at some point. Well, we don’t know that that [01:10:00] really existed for them any more than it existed for us. And certainly in 1968, we didn’t have too many Black chairmans of the board. So, it became easier and easier to get other groups of people to understand the concept of economical pressure and focus on that as opposed to racial or social differences. JJ: But it was understood that people had to struggle against racism. In other words, it wasn’t, “We’re just going to come together and overcome; we should overcome.” WD: No. JJ: “We need to deal with certain issues here.” There is racism. WD: I guess what you call the dialectical approach. JJ: Am I putting words in your -- 40 �WD: No. There was (audio cuts out) racism exists. It’s still a debate today as to which element is more important, racism or economics. If everything else was equal economically, then you have your prejudices anyway. Now, [01:11:00] the big thing about racism is the ability to suppress, oppress, deny freedoms to another individual, based on the fact that you can identify him through a physical trait that he’s not in control of, which is race. We can’t do that to white people, so for Black people to be leery of white folks, to be suspicious of white people, to want to be free of their control is not racism. We just don’t have that power, and in any case that I can think of in history, we didn’t do that. But definitely, racism was to be overcome by all those people who were -- they were to deal with it. They were to cope with it and understand that it did exist. We didn’t eradicate racism through the Rainbow Coalition. JJ: Started running it down. What was the [01:12:00] main thing that you felt about the party in Illinois that had an impact, and where? What was the impact in terms of community? WD: One of the most dynamic factors of the Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party was that we were young people who were knowledgeable, who were highly motivated. To a great extent, we were articulate. We were able to explain our position. We were able to debate the topics of the day and offer solutions and alternatives. Through the [structure?] of Black Panther Party, we were a network before “networking” was a phrase. You hear the quote that 43 chapters and 3 international sections meant that we had a reach. We had a national newspaper. [01:13:00] We just had a presence that was unlike any other organization at the 41 �time. And our goal was not self-serving. We weren’t trying to establish ourselves as the supreme power of Black people; we were tools. We were -- what’s the quote (inaudible)? We were oxen to be ridden by the people down the road to social revolution. JJ: The oxen for the people to ride. WD: We were here to serve the people, and that’s the way we functioned. JJ: Revolutionary is the oxen for the people to ride. WD: Revolutionaries are the oxen for the people to ride down the road to social revolution. JJ: Anything that you want to add that we haven’t discussed yet, any major points? [01:14:00] How was the effect of the murder of Fred on the (inaudible) party? How did that affect the party (inaudible)? WD: The Illinois Chapter was -- JJ: Did it keep running or -- WD: Illinois Chapter existed and functioned through 1976, I believe, which is seven years after the murder of Fred Hampton. As I was saying earlier, the FBI had already planned to destroy the Black Panther Party in total, all chapters. That was their mandate. That was a goal of theirs. JJ: So, you’re saying all chapters. Would that include the Patriots and the Young Lords? WD: It probably did. Well, through what I’ve read from COINTELPRO, those documents show clearly that they were trying to suppress [01:15:00] all groups that they deemed subversive. That included, in Chicago, we had the Red Squad, 42 �and they were going to block club meetings, church meetings, anything civil rights oriented. They did not want the Black community to organize, and so the Young Lords, anyone who was politically astute, anyone who was politically motivated who would run counter in Chicago to the Daley machine was going to be a target. And I’m certain the Young Lords were. Even SDS was an issue. And Hoover, the COINTELPRO comes out of the McCarthy era. COINTELPRO goes all the way back to 1920-something when they created the FBI. So, this issue of suppressing subversives or people who would [01:16:00] destabilize the government or be a threat to the government internally is longstanding. The Panthers didn’t invent that, but we were the focal point of it. We were like that perfect storm. We just kind of met them when they were developing where they are now. And again, like I was saying earlier, if we had no-fly zones, we couldn’t have gotten on airplanes, but we would’ve gone everywhere in cars. JJ: Do you recall Reverend Bruce Johnson and Eugenia Johnson, who were the pastors of the Young Lords Church? WD: I’m not familiar with them. JJ: Okay, because he was stabbed 17 times, and his wife 9 times, and this was only 30 days before Fred Hampton was murdered. WD: I wasn’t aware of that. JJ: And another reverend that was at that church that was transferred, that People’s Church, the Young Lords Church, was transferring to Los Angeles, was also murdered in that time. So, this was all during the same period. 43 �WD: Well, here. To the extent that [01:17:00] we have the testimony of William O'Neal explaining his activities and his intentions, even -- JJ: He went to Young the Lords Church, William O’Neal (inaudible). WD: See, well, my point is this, that the type of people that the US government recruits to do their work, proven out even in modern-day times, these people will do whatever they’re paid to do. So, you can get what we’ll call a hyper person who’s addicted to drugs to do all kinds of things to get his drugs. You know, William O’Neal was trying to become a member of the FBI, so they kept promising him that, and he thought in his own mind, he would become a member. But the FBI knew he was just a tool. So, he was willing to do anything he could to get into the FBI. The problem with agent provocateurs and instigators is that you don’t know how far they’ll go until maybe they’ll just turn out to be [01:18:00] assassins, and that’s the danger. You really can’t tell. This cop that was bending over Malcolm X infiltrated the Black Panther Party years later. We have agents of the US government who have infiltrated Black organizations over the years, and they keep using the same tactic again and again and again, infiltration, destabilization. So, again, the government had decided to end the Black Panther Party. JJ: Infiltration, destabilization, what do you mean destabilization? WD: Well, if you get a person in the organization who is a provocateur, who is a subversive agent inside the organization, they’re stealing money, if they’re disruptive, if they’re saboteurs. JJ: They’re instigating? 44 �WD: Yeah, they’re instigating. [01:19:00] They will destabilize as long as they keep some shit going. They’re disruptive, just in any number of things that they could do to keep you from doing party work and being responsible. JJ: So, they’re went on until 1976, the Panthers. WD: Yeah, the Illinois Chapter. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) and everything, they were going out? WD: Well, here’s an important thing about the party. They started as the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense, became an international organization. I’ve learned from party members who were in Algiers that the international section in Algiers actually became the US Embassy because the United States government did not recognize the Algerian government after independence, so there were Americans on the ground in Algiers, much like you’ve explained to me that the Young Lords Organization was an organization for all Hispanics. They had Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, Cubans. You spoke Spanish, you could have a place in the Young Lords because [01:20:00] nobody else offered a voice for that. So, as the Black Panther Party grew and developed over time, its tactics, its vision, its understanding of the world changed, and the programs changed, and the directives changed over time. As the government absorbed our activities, as the government established free breakfast programs, established health clinics in our communities, then it was no longer necessary for the Black Panther Party to have those same programs. Early, before Huey Newton went to jail, he had run for local government, so the party eventually got back to electoral politics, and in reality, there came a time when the party wasn’t necessary anymore. When they 45 �were far away from being an institution for self-defense, by trying to run as elected officials and create more programs to fill the gaps that the government or city founders had left open, [01:21:00] it just wasn’t the same organization anymore and should rightfully have just ceased to exist. JJ: But you had Bobby Seale running for mayor in Oakland at the time. So, you’re not saying that it should cease to exist because they got into electoral politics? WD: No. It’s just that the type of organization and the reason it was established, those conditions changed. Many times, people ask me, what would the Panthers do now? What would our focus be? What would our issues be? A lot of them are similar, but we would go at it a whole nother way. I think for Bobby Seale or any other party member to run for public office is a good thing because you want to have a person with that type of knowledge and background in a position to make decisions, to influence other politicians, to be present in the room at least to speak out against things. So, any situation, whether it’s a block [01:22:00] club or a church choir, it’s better to have a person with some consciousness in that room to help make those decisions, to help guide that group. JJ: And my understanding was that there was also an organizing tool or something, a campaign. WD: Certainly. Jesse Jackson, Sr. ran for president, and he got 600,000 votes. Well, that meant the 600,000 people believed in what he said. But he also indicated he had no intention of winning the election, but it allowed him to talk about issues that the other politicians weren’t going to bring up. That helps feed the public consciousness. That helps build awareness, which is also what we did by raising 46 �the contradictions between our reality and what the government said reality was. That was another tool of the Black Panther Party, to raise the contradictions between what is and what was. JJ: Ok, any final thoughts? WD: If I had to do it again, I would join the Black Panther Party. [01:23:00] There’s a lot that’s wrong with the world. Everybody can do something to make it better. Find out what you can do that, and make it a better place. END OF VIDEO FILE 47 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/26ba3eb92bd4eaa0a6d46d3721ef3fc7.mp4 48e1f2437f67b3827c83eea7b8dc36ef Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry William E. Dunbar vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Afro-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Hampton, Fred, 1948-1969 Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capítulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Dunbar_William Title A name given to the resource William E. Dunbar video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dunbar, William Description An account of the resource Billy Dunbar is a member of the Chicago Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense (BPP). He is from the south side of Chicago. He keeps up with all the political events related to the BPP and the Rainbow Coalition, including the era of their origins. Mr. Dunbar is also a founding member of the Illinois BPP History Project, which is currently conducting oral histories to document the Chicago Chapter, so that the work of their members is not forgotten. Their project also wants the public to remember the impact that BPP Chairman Fred Hampton not only had on the African American community but on other communities of color and the poor. Mr. Dunbar is also a businessman. Today he owns a copy center.Chicago BPP Chairman Fred Hampton and BPP member Mark Clark were murdered in a predawn raid on December 4, 1969. Prior to his death, Mr. Hampton started a Rainbow Coalition, which was nurtured by Bobby Lee. The original members included the Young Patriots, a group of Hillbillies or southern whites from the Uptown neighborhood of Chicago of whom many had migrated from Appalachia and other southern areas, and the Young Lords from Lincoln Park. The Young Lords first met Fred Hampton at John Boelter’s and Ralph Rivera’s home and joined the Rainbow Coalition directly through Fred Hampton. Bobby Lee who was the BPP Field Marshall then began working more directly with José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez and the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) African Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Hampton, Fred, 1948-1969 Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-07-15 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4a20b5be0e790dbb0bea9dcb772fc225.pdf 01b813b6a06d7dc95d4b15959666f878 PDF Text Text �� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Civil War and Slavery Collection Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Slavery--United States African Americans United States--Politics and government--19th century Description An account of the resource A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemmen, Harvey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1804-1897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg; application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image; Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1804-1897 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-45_CW-0178 Title A name given to the resource William H. Herndon, law partner of Abraham Lincoln, photo and note Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1861-02-13 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herndon, William Henry, 1818-1891 Subject The topic of the resource Lincoln, Abraham, 1809-1865 United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Herndon, William Henry, 1818-1891 Description An account of the resource William H. Herndon, law partner of Abraham Lincoln from 1848 until Lincoln's death. Photo of Herndon and note to clerk concerning Ambrose Barrett, Feb. 13, 1861. Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Civil War and slavery collection (RHC-45): http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5e74e43f1db8ceaf167cd1fbc1a72754.pdf 5db6b3c5cf6678be533b61c4c44e9161 PDF Text Text ����� https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5f7a3e78425c73704642ab865050d5b9.pdf 6cc9e549c8b3042889b427d6140bb952 PDF Text Text Cambridge, June 3d /60 Dear Old Friend, [?]. I hope you have not irrevocably consigned me to a stygian[?] adventure on a slab for you know how averse I am to a [?] atmosphere, and that I may convince you that it is all owing to Manifest Destiny. A victim of neglect indirectly. That no[?] [?] what may be essential to our final reckoning. I will come to the reality as they are. Your letter dated May 4th was duly recd and sir [?] most eagerly devoured and just now I have reread it and find it true the “older feeling” something. Satan maybe has made me neglect correspondents generally for the last month and have me up in the law. Shall no letter excuse �you know [?] how impossible it is for me to lie. It is all destiny. For the last week we have had recess in school. I have read but little “de Beneesse”[?] for the simple reason that there have been anniversaries in Boston continually through the week. The Orthodox Universalist Unitarian, the Abolitionist and Womans Rights devotees all met, each set for their separate good time. Boston being but a good wall from here I have been a freely regular attendant at their festivals, hearing their big guns and judging them from observations freely presided at the Universalist festival most vehemently at the Abolitionist gathering. The thing through was a scandalous affair, perhaps because I have no sympathy with them. We heard some rare elegance from Garrison, Emmerson [Emerson] �Douglass & Philips, the latter a most splendid orator. He keeps your heart pounding without a seeming effort. He’s an old hero. Their motto seems to be war against every popular and prevalent institution. Their invectives came as has at the Orthodoxy as at Union men. The Woman’s rights convention as the most amusing affair but I cannot now detail the procedure. I attended a Republican ratification meeting in old Faneuil Hall the other night! Went off good. Tremendous enthusiasm. And latter [later] a similar Union meeting which beat the Republicans in both speakers & enthusiasm. Douglass men have a meeting next Thursday night at same place. [?] will be a big concern. Some of the best speakers both West & South engaged for the occasion. There is a great deal of interest here in politics. Mostly Republicans, though the Law school is democratic �[?] I think if you have political aspirations and are always to identify yourself with Republicanism, that you had best abandon your present course and try your hand at splitting rails or making stone wall. You are sure of appreciation then. Lincolns nomination and Seward’s decapitation is simply scurrilous, though it may be stranger[?] Douglas is the only man that can triumph. If he is not nominated I should prefer the Union ticket. Yet I am not much interested. School goes finely. Now reading “Parsons on Contracts.” Collin staid with me last Wednesday night. He will yet make a good lawyer. Heretofore we have only seen the worst part of Charlie. I had a letter from Rice a few days ago. He says John has found a bottom to his receptacle and doing well. I hear from Alburgh some occasionally. My Pegassus[?] complains of monotony and imagination asserts that rather than ride him longer, it prefers even Mac’s horse and Clay roads for a season. I must let his sheet[?] do this time, though its near your last. You see I write closer than you do. This is written in great haste, but let me hear from you soon &d promise better. My love to you “all in all.” How is Jule domestically. Yours as Ever G.C. Soble � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Civil War and Slavery Collection Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Slavery--United States African Americans United States--Politics and government--19th century Description An account of the resource A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemmen, Harvey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1804-1897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg; application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image; Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1804-1897 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-45_CW1-4376 Title A name given to the resource William Henry Shepard from G. C. Noble Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1860-06-03 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Noble, G. C. Subject The topic of the resource Harvard Law School Unitarian Universalists Abolitionists Women's rights United States--Politics and government--19th century Phillips, Wendell, 1811-1884 Garrison, William Lloyd, 1805-1879 Emerson, Ralph Waldo, 1803-1882 Douglass, Frederick, 1818-1895 Republican Party (U.S. 1854- ) Constitutional Union Party (U.S.) Lincoln, Abraham, 1809-1865 Seward, William Henry, 1801-1872 Douglas, Stephen A. (Stephen Arnold), 1813-1861 United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Cambridge (Mass.) Boston (Mass.) Faneuil Hall (Boston, Mass.) Massachusetts Description An account of the resource Letter to a friend from Harvard law student regarding his attendance at Boston political festivals where he heard Abolitionists William Lloyd Garrison and Frederick Douglass, and at a women's rights convention. He also discusses politics in the 1860 election. Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Civil War and slavery collection (RHC-45): http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f9fa030dd1ab03909e905263b896b5bc.jpg e86a8b13352626971df80389e3a684d7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1970s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_001147 Title A name given to the resource William James College dean Adrian Tinsley Description An account of the resource William James College dean Adrian Tinsley. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Faculty Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/79c00f1dce817b0f946c3c2398a86cc9.jpg 3202403f5fd4476353da6cd8bd8bf976 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1970s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000303 Title A name given to the resource William James College Gospel Choir Description An account of the resource William James College Gospel Choir. Subject The topic of the resource Universities and colleges Allendale (Mich.) Grand Valley State University Michigan Choirs (Music) Students Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7515648b02d7de0cde9dbd108801f108.jpg 793b98cb226cb31cd96b663cbfc7ac59 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1970s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000304 Title A name given to the resource William James College Gospel Choir Description An account of the resource William James College Gospel Choir. Subject The topic of the resource Universities and colleges Allendale (Mich.) Grand Valley State University Michigan Choirs (Music) Students Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9c2f3690b21257de39c6493a583a86f4.jpg dc071fb8a115ec06872bf5b928840dee Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1970s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000305 Title A name given to the resource William James College Gospel Choir Description An account of the resource William James College Gospel Choir. Subject The topic of the resource Universities and colleges Allendale (Mich.) Grand Valley State University Michigan Choirs (Music) Students Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0e17989b5c8ef440cce5082bf3ee3f02.jpg b729e1b955935dc493815b1d4db529b6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1970s William James College Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000288 Title A name given to the resource William James College graduating students Description An account of the resource William James College graduating students. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Students Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/425e773ed01cd727e78ba817cac5de4f.jpg 843a8c97f8cf7332dd2dfe0d2ec81f71 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1970s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_001274 Title A name given to the resource William James College logo Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Description An account of the resource Logo for the William James College at Grand Valley State Colleges. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Signs (Notices) Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives color photo