1055 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/af2f7be4aff91aeaafec08f4c95ae013.mp3 42f9d09fb43a35f1dfd44c8dc68304e0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Eastertide V Scripture Text Exodus 19:1-6, I Peter 2:9-10, Matthew 16:13-20 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-19890423 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1989-04-23 Title A name given to the resource Who Needs a Good-For-Nothing Church? Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on April 23, 1989 entitled "Who Needs a Good-For-Nothing Church?", on the occasion of Eastertide V, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: Exodus 19:1-6, I Peter 2:9-10, Matthew 16:13-20. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5eb9b0fa7c6ba8002a49326269a86b41.mp3 fb4bbb3ec677e23fa0e3aea37482623d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f8d685736345e2b2db97ceb7e421de8d.pdf 97e1274374ec94db2d53740ee7be3dae PDF Text Text Who Needs a Good-For-Nothing Church? Pentecost XX Mark 2:13-17 Richard A. Rhem Christ Community Church Spring Lake, Michigan October 14, 2001 Transcription of the spoken sermon In an article in The New York Times Magazine of last week, Andrew Sullivan, an excellent writer, makes a point of the fact that it is fine that we have been cautioned against targeting Islam as a religion responsible for what has happened in the world, and that is laudable, he says. But he writes, “The only problem with this otherwise laudable effort is that it doesn't hold up under inspection. The religious dimension of the conflict is central to its meaning. The words of Osama bin Laden are saturated with religious argument and theological language. Whatever the Taliban regime in Afghanistan is, it is fanatically religious." He goes on to say, "In that sense, this surely is a religious war, but not of Islam versus Christianity and Judaism. Rather, it is a war of fundamentalism against faiths of all kinds that are at peace with freedom and modernity. This war even has far gentler versions in America's own religious conflicts between newer, more virulent strands of Christian fundamentalism and mainstream Protestantism and Catholicism. These conflicts have ancient roots, but they seem to be gaining new force as modernity spreads and deepens. They are our new wars of religion and their victims are, in all likelihood, going to mount with each passing year." And one more sentence from Sullivan: "It seems almost as if there is something inherent in religious monotheism that lends itself to this kind of terrorist temptation, and our bland attempts to ignore this, to speak of this violence as if it did not have religious roots, is some kind of denial. We don't want to denigrate religions as such, and so we deny that religion is at the heart of this. But we would understand this conflict better, perhaps, if we first acknowledge that religion is responsible in some way, and then figure how and why." This is a religious war, and religion is at the heart of it, and until we understand that, our world will continue reeling from one disaster to another, for religion gives people a sense of identity and it creates community, and we learn from such scholars as Karen Armstrong and others who have analyzed the present situation that in a world that is disoriented, full of confusion for so many people who have © Grand Valley State University   �Who Needs a Good-for-Nothing Church? Richard A. Rhem Page 2   their old ways disrupted and who have moved off their lands, there is a tremendous appeal by a fundamentalist-type faith that has an absolute faith structure. It has a sacred text that is infallible, and it has a way of life to which absolute obedience is demanded. This has a certain allure, and it has worked in our world and in our day to an amazing extent so that what we have is not the problem of Islam, per se, but we have the problem of fundamentalists religion that purports to have absolute truth and demands absolute obedience. It denies the function of reason, the mind, and the intellect, and it denies human freedom and the possibility of a maturing of the human being. That is the struggle today, and that was the struggle in the time of Jesus. Jesus was a Jew. Jesus never intended to start a new religion. Everything that Jesus was and taught was in the compass of his Judaism, and yet, what he counseled and how he acted and what he embodied contradicted some of the things that were intrinsic in his Jewish faith. The insights that he had, the way of life that he lived, eventuated in another world religion because the old containers couldn't hold it, and so while it was not his intention to move from his own native Judaism and be the founder of a Christian church, what he saw was so dynamic, was so electric, was so powerful that it shattered the forms and structures of that old covenant faith. And that is where we are today. That is precisely where we are today. There is a continuum from Osama bin Laden and Islamic fundamentalist terrorists to Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, and at the other softer end, mainline Protestantism and Catholicism. There is no radical division between the most bland and placid Protestantism in this country and the extreme of Falwell and the terrorism of bin Laden. Any point along that continuum that you stop is an arbitrary stopping place. The problem is religion. The problem is absolutistic religion that denies critical thinking and hinders the maturing of the human personality into one that can make critical judgments and find the way to celebrate life in this world in all of the light of the knowledge that we have of the emerging, evolving drama of the cosmos of which we are a part. As Andrew Sullivan says, we don't want to denigrate religion, and we don't want to target a particular religion, and so we dance around the issue. But, I want to tell you, and we have acknowledged that here for some time past, religion is powerful. Religion is dangerous. Religion is volatile. It becomes an instrument in the hand of the unscrupulous or the unaware for the creation of hell on earth. Who needs a good for nothing church? That is, a church that has no axe to grind, a church that has no institutional ulterior motives, a church that is committed not to the binding down of the soul and the hindering of the maturing of the individual, but a church, a congregation, a community of faith that would seek to lead its people into human maturity, that refuses to promise a comfort it cannot deliver, and refuses to claim that it has the absolute word of God which it does not, apart from some human understanding and interpretation. Who needs that kind of church? © Grand Valley State University �Who Needs a Good-for-Nothing Church? Richard A. Rhem Page 3   By God, the world needs that kind of church. And until the world finds that kind of church, religion will continue to be a dangerous and disruptive and hellcreating power on earth. It is time we call a spade a spade and recognize the volatility of religion and its demonic potential, and recognize that until we get honest and acknowledge our humanity, the limitedness and the tentativeness and the provisionalness of being human, of the fact that to be human is to be in history, to be in history is to be denied absolutes, to be in history is a call to compassion, to walk together and to find our way together into a better future marked by peace. Jesus shattered the structures of Judaism, not because he took off against his covenant faith, but because what he saw, what he experienced, what he could not and would not deny was so electric and so full of dynamite that he transformed the face of the earth. And we're there again. Who needs a good for nothing church? The world does, by God. © Grand Valley State University � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Harvest Festival, Pentecost XIX Scripture Text Mark 2:13-17 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-20011014 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2001-10-14 Title A name given to the resource Who Needs a Good-For-Nothing Church? Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on October 14, 2001 entitled "Who Needs a Good-For-Nothing Church?", on the occasion of Harvest Festival, Pentecost XIX, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: Mark 2:13-17. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/69159221b3cd3cec67a7b8de45985d2e.pdf 539637c38aa5582542c1dc0c0e8ba5bf PDF Text Text Who Says God Says? Richard A. Rhem Christ Community Church Spring Lake, Michigan July 25, 1993 Transcription of the spoken sermon "…never again prophesy at Bethel, for it is the king's sanctuary, and it is a temple of the kingdom." Amos 7:13 "Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing." Luke 4:21 Within the last couple of years we have had a guest at Christ Community; his name is Niko Terlinda. He is a pastor in Amsterdam. He has an exciting ministry there. He told of his experience of teaching the Bible at the public school. Strangely enough, with the secularizing of that country that was so deeply imbued in the Christian tradition, a minister like Terlinda would go to a public school and tell Bible stories, not in order to evangelize the children, but simply to keep the knowledge of the Biblical tradition alive. He tells about the day he told the story of how God spoke to Amos, when a little nine-year-old raised his hand and said, “Does God still say something?” As Terlinda noted to us, and as we so note this morning, that really is a critical question. Does God still say something? When I came out of seminary in 1960, within a year or two a friend of mine was called to a sister congregation in the area and I was invited to preach the ordination sermon. I took a text from one of the prophets. I am not sure just which one. I can't remember the text, but I remember the sermon very, very well, and I remember the point of the sermon. I said to this person about to assume a ministry of the Word of God that, in the case of Jeremiah, the biblical prophet, Jeremiah could say, “Thus saith the Lord.” But I said to my friend on the threshold of being ordained into the ministry of the Word, “You can't say that. What you must say is, ‘Thus hath the Lord said.’” Do you get the difference? At that time, in the days of my youth, and days of my insecurity and defensiveness, which I didn't really understand, I wanted every word that God had ever spoken to be in this book. I wanted to have between the covers of this book every revealed word, and it would be then from that mind that I would have the Word, it would be given here, I could manage it, and I could proclaim it. I said to my friend, “The biblical prophet said, ‘Thus saith the Lord,’ but you will be able to say only, ‘Thus hath the Lord said.’” I was dead wrong. Somebody should have come up and taken me by the ear and brought me home. Someone should have © Grand Valley State University   �Who Says God Says? Richard A. Rhem Page 2   said to me, “Do you know what you have just done to this young minister? You have absolutely shackled him. You have ruled out the possibility that God still speaks. You have ruled out the possibility that there could still be today the immediacy of God's address of God's people through the proclaimed word.” Or in answer to the question of the little nine-year-old – "Does God still say something?”– what I was saying in that message was, "No. God has spoken. God speaks no more!" We have now to proclaim what once came to expression, but there was always that indirectness, this truth at second hand. That was safe, and it was manageable. But it was absolutely wrong. I don't know how long it took me to figure that out. Thank God I realized at some point that God still speaks. While this Word is a record of that encounter of God with God's people in the past, and it becomes still the instrument through which God addresses God's people in the present, it is the address of God's people in the present about which we are concerned. We would hear the Word of God now, here and now, addressed to our lives and our situation. But the moment one would make that claim someone is going to say, "Who Says God Says?" I suppose that could be your question. As I preach, you are responsible people, thinking people, serious people. Sometimes I suppose the question must arise over against what I am proclaiming: "Who Says God Says?" You know really the idea of preaching, the conception of preaching in the Reformed tradition, is a presumptuous idea. Calvin and Luther said that the proclaimed word becomes the Word of God. In our tradition there is the Word of God written, the Word of God in flesh, but also the preached Word. That is why the Word has been so central. The proclaimed Word, the Word of God – that almost smacks of arrogance to me. This Word, the Word of God – did you ever say, "Who Said God Says?" Do you ever challenge that preached word? I suspect you do. I hope you do. I think you ought to, because, as a matter of fact, I stand in the tradition of Amos, and for that matter of Jesus. Amos was a farmer, but he got a call one day and he went to the Northern Kingdom of Israel and to the very royal court itself, and he proclaimed the word of judgment against that Northern Kingdom and against Jeroboam the king to the point at which the royal priest – (because every court also had its cadre of priests because every wise political leader will do his or her best to co-opt the Church, the messenger of God, so that there can be the union of throne and altar) – Uzziah, the court priest, came out to this prickly prophet and said, “Go back home. Earn your bread in Judah, but don't preach here any more.” Well, Amos said, “Don't call me a professional prophet who earns his bread preaching. I'm just a farmer. God took me, called me, and sent me to preach.” But the dilemma. Amos, a man of passion and conviction. Without that no one listens. Nothing happens. But Uzziah, he had his ordination too. He was a priest. Maybe he was in it just for the prestige and the pay, or maybe he was a serious priest of the God of Israel. I don't know, but I know he had a task to do too. As © Grand Valley State University �Who Says God Says? Richard A. Rhem Page 3   one who presided at the royal court, he encounters a prophet. This is not the only instance of that conflict in Israel's history where the prophetic word was expressed and the royal response countered it, and I suppose a case could be made for Uzziah. Israel was at the height of its prosperity and who likes to have a dour word, a negative word of judgment and critique spoken in the halls of power where they are trying to keep everything moving positively. Jesus - if you had been in Nazareth that day and Jesus whom you saw grow up went to the pulpit and then came to the stool and sat down and said, “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me. God has anointed me to… and to say this word has been fulfilled in your presence.” What would you have thought? You see, it’s not so difficult to look back on Israel's history in the 8th century BCE and to analyze the conflict between Amos and Uzziah and say obviously Amos had a word from God (and as a matter of fact, that word did eventuate). It’s not so difficult for us who are the followers of Jesus to say the people in Jesus' home synagogue in Nazareth were absolutely wrong. Not that they didn't understand; the problem is they didn't like what they understood. So, if you don't like the message, you kill the messenger. But, it wasn't so easy. They didn't really have any basis on which to judge this one except he'd grown up in the corner carpenter shop and they had heard some rumors about what he was doing in Capernaum and neighboring areas. Some of the things he was doing were unsettling. Then he has the audacity to sit in their midst in the synagogue and to say, “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me. I am anointed to preach.” Would you have been ready to hear that word, which would have involved the tumbling of the propositions of one's system of understanding? Or might you have gone to the parlor and had brunch and said, “I don't know. ‘Who Says God Says?’” Who Says God Says? That's not so easy, is it? That's not so easy for you because you have to live with me. You know all the foibles and flaws of this preacher. Then for twenty minutes on a given Sunday I sit on this stool and I say, “Thus saith the Lord.” Well, you're not just subservient puppets that you should just sit there and take it. Discern, test the spirits. But it's not so easy for me either. How do I know? I know this. With the little bit I do know I begin to know how little I know. Then I am supposed to say to you, God's people, “Thus saith the Lord.” That's scary business. That's why I get a headache on Saturday. (Laughter) A headache before and then one on Sunday afternoon after. Someone said to me this week, “If I had your job I'd have a headache too.” Who Says God Says? How in the world do we know? If there isn't passion and conviction on the part of the messenger, the message will not be heeded. But if there is a kind of absolutism and dogmatism, and authoritarianism in the message, the message very naturally is going to be resisted, and rightly so. Who Says God Says? It isn't simple. And I am not going to turn now to the typical preacher’s trick of giving you six easy ways by which to know. My point is: It is not that easy. It is not that simple. © Grand Valley State University �Who Says God Says? Richard A. Rhem Page 4   I did talk to a friend of mine yesterday who gave me some help in order that I could say something that maybe you could go out of here thinking about. He was recently in England and Scotland and Ireland, and on the trip back from Ireland to England they came into the harbor of Holy Head in Wales. It reminded him of a story of an old preacher who had come into Holy Head Harbor in the dead of night and the darkness was so thick that you could cut it with a knife. This preacher said to the captain, “How in the world do you know that you are going to sail into the harbor?” The captain said to him, “Do you see those three lights on the horizon?” He said, “Yes.” He said, “When those three lights line up as one you will sail into the middle of Holy Head Harbor.” If we apply this, we could say on one hand there is that light of the tradition. We are a people who have been shaped. We have come from a womb that has shaped us and has implanted deeply within us, woven into the fabric of our being, certain perceptions, a certain frame of reference, a sense of being. We do not disparage that rock from which we have been hewn. We have a tradition. We are the recipients of a great heritage, and that tradition has been written of, spoken of as scriptures, and we have two thousand years of church history. We are Christians. We are part of the God of Israel. Going back to the creation, we are a people who believe in that one who created all things and who was revealed in the face of Jesus Christ. We come out of a community that has spoken, that has affirmed some things. So we do have some guidelines. We don't start out from square one, with a blank slate as it were. But that one light isn't enough because it can then simply be an external rule to which one would assent mentally but without inward conviction. That inward conviction must also be there. How does that inward conviction develop? What do you really believe? What do you really believe? What would make you stand on your feet and be counted? What would fill you with rage causing you to move into action? What would break your heart and cause compassion to flow? What do you really believe? I speak of my concrete truth. It’s one thing for me to say I am a part of this grand tradition. It’s another thing for me to say, “This I believe. This I will die for. This I will live for.” How does that come? Out of our experience? I suppose. Out of the ongoing communion of the Spirit? God is not done speaking. God says something still. Jesus said, “The Spirit will lead you into all truth.” Calvin said, “The internal testimony of the Holy Spirit must confirm what the word or the tradition says to us.” Somehow or other those things come together until finally I can take my stand. I can say, “I believe.” So that is a second light. Then, of course, the tradition has not issued to us in our present experience in a vacuum. We live in a cultural context in a specific historical setting. As we said last week, it’s a fascinating time in which to be alive – the knowledge that is exploding all around us, the fantastic knowledge of the physical universe, of the human person, of the movement of history, all of this that becomes accessible to us so that in our own experience tried and true physical theories like that of Newton are blown sky high. And instead we have quantum physics. We live in a © Grand Valley State University �Who Says God Says? Richard A. Rhem Page 5   cultural context that is alive with all kinds of knowledge that give us new insight. So I have to take that which shaped me and that tradition in which I was nurtured, and my experience…my experience of grace…of God…of my human experience. Then I have to understand myself in this present time, this ongoing human drama…my time. So our specific time, context, the influence of our culture is a third light. But it is still not simple. The Church historically has majored in absolutes. Some of the greatest problems in the Church are the preachers who want to make it clear and simple, and who need to be right. But there’s a problem in the pew also. The people would like to have it simple and clear and tight. It isn’t simple and clear. It is complex, full of ambiguity, and we cannot know. We cannot know absolutely. To know absolutely is to deny the nature of our historical existence. And I don’t think the Church over the centuries has done a favor to people to try to give that kind of security that will remove all uneasiness and ambiguity from the human situation. In the ongoing movement of the human drama we need to be open and alive and alert and humble, and trusting that the Spirit of God will lead us into all truth, and that underneath are everlasting arms and that God will move and that God's purposes will be in ways beyond our wildest dreams. But the secret of that is not knowing, but trusting. To be able to live with questions, all the time trusting the eternal God who is the foundation, the God who holds the world in God's hand knowing that there are yet more wonders to behold and dreams to dream and insights to gain than have ever entered into the human heart. “We walk,” said Paul, “not by knowledge but by faith.” For he said, “It has not entered into the heart of man to dream the things that God has prepared for those that love God.” When we walk by faith, when we trust God, then we can be open to the continuing surprises of grace and the “aha!” The Church still today, maybe today more than ever, is making all kinds of absolute statements. In order to increase summer attendance we decided to add a Sunday supplement to the bulletin. You've now got a comic strip. I would have mentioned it earlier, but I didn't want to lose your attention. (Laughter) The little comic strip on the last page would be funny if it weren't true. People like me have stood before people like you and have said, “It is abundantly clear that...” and it’s not. And you don't need to have it so clear, and so neat, all tied up in a little package. One thing you need: to trust God. Trust God. People like me have pandered to people like you, succumbed to the seduction of trying to be the font of all knowledge and wisdom. Giving you answers where there were really only questions, when what we should have been saying to you was, “On the one hand, on the other, but nevertheless.” The foundation is solid. God is God, and you can trust that! Well sometime I'll be preaching along and I expect one of you will stand up in the pew and say, “Who Says God Says?” And I'll say, “Time out. You're right,” because dear friends I believe with all my heart and I preach with all the passion of my soul, and I know some things. The thing I know more than all is that I don't © Grand Valley State University �Who Says God Says? Richard A. Rhem Page 6   know very much when it comes to the real mysteries of life. But I know God will take care of you…come what may. © Grand Valley State University � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2077f9fdcde92369a03cf483dbfd88aa.mp3 024595722119c65af3db000409e4d3bc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Pentecost VIII Scripture Text Amos 7:13, Luke 4:21 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-19930725 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1993-07-25 Title A name given to the resource Who Says God Says? Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on July 25, 1993 entitled "Who Says God Says?", on the occasion of Pentecost VIII, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: Amos 7:13, Luke 4:21. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives Prophecy Revelation Trust Word of God https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f62e00c4b7ef2151a62d90d97c6f4802.pdf 7717e5d49993cb868085d15a3070a02b PDF Text Text LGBT GENDER & SEXUALITY LIB 100 Approved OnGoi1uJ l,GnT Ccn1fere11ee: WHO YOU ARE AND WHO YOU LOVE: \l<11·c-l1 17. -1-b P\l / 11h] l(irlihot fPntPr Please join us as Denise Brogan-I<ator the Managing A.t torney for Rainbow Law Center, and her partner Mary I<ator share their first hand experience of the effects of gender and sexuality on their personal and professional lives. Denise Brogan-I<ator is the Managing Attorney for Rainbow Law, PLLC whose practice focuses on the LGBT community in Southeast Michigan. Denise was the first openly transgender student to attend the University of Michigan Law School. She has been a leader in the transgender rights movement since the mid 1990's. Denise has appeared on 20 / 20 and the Discovery Channel's Transgender Revolution and has personally helped transgender people keep their families together, retain their jobs, and find peace with themselves and those around them. Mary I<ator is a graduate of the University of Michigan Law School. Mary's legal career has included representation of individuals, small companies, and large corporations, and has involved a wide variety of legal issues. For more information visit ~~~,~~~y.gvsu.edu/lgbtrc Any person(s) needing special assistance should call 616-331-2530 7 days prior to the event. A G w VALLEY STATE UNIVERSITY � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource GVSU Sexuality and Gender Flyers Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Rainbow Resource Center Women and Gender Studies Department Women's Commission Gayle R. Davis Center for Women and Gender Equity Description An account of the resource Digitized posters, flyers, event notices, and other materials relating to gender expression and sexuality at Grand Valley State University, with materials spanning from 1974 to 2019. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1974/2019 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digitized from collections at the Rainbow Resource Center (formerly the Milton E. Ford LGBT Resource Center), Women and Gender Studies Department, Women's Commission, and Gayle R. Davis Center for Women and Gender Equity. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Gender identity Gender expression Sexual orientation Women's studies Queer theory Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-09 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Language A language of the resource eng Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-09_SGF_LGBTQ_2009_OnGoing-LGBT-Conference-Who-You-Are-&-Who-You-Love-Poster.pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-03-17 Title A name given to the resource Who You Are & Who You Love: The Intersections of Gender Identity and Sexual Orientation Description An account of the resource Poster with a synopsis on the topic, and information of the event, including the place, time and date. One of the 2009 LGBT & Gender/Sexuality events of the LGBT OnGoing Conference series. Subject The topic of the resource Sexual minorities--Identity Community centers Gender identity Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived The Rainbow Resource Center Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Rainbow Resource Center https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5d5222e45223e35c147929a03267f9bf.m4v 222431e745f76210921cd26caed804f7 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/81a83ee00794f5d1bed0d2f8e0fcf038.pdf fb80f276649f2a9dc275d691e0b63ed4 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Vietnam War Charles Whorton Length of interview: (58:33) (00:00) Early Life      Charles was born on January 2, 1947 in Mobile, Alabama When Charles was a child, his family moved to Benton Harbor, Michigan, where he grew up His father worked at Whirlpool as an electrician and his mother worked as an auto specialist Charles graduated high school in 1964 o After he graduated, he worked at several factory jobs before going to work at Whirlpool He got his draft notice in early 1966 o At the same time that he got his draft notice, he found out that his cousin had been killed in Vietnam (2:30) Military Life      Charles went to Fort Hood, Texas for basic training o The barracks were old, World War Two era buildings o When they arrived, the drill instructors immediately started screaming at them Training consisted of physical training, weapons instruction, and survival training o They also made them go through a gas chamber to see how fast they could put on a gas mask o It was easy to adjust to the discipline o About a quarter of the men were black, another quarter were Hispanic, while the rest of the men were Caucasian. All of the men got along because they were afraid After the training and a short leave, Charles went to Fort Benning, Georgia for radio training (Advanced Individual Training) o In this training course, Charles learned how to operate a small backpack radio. He also learned Morse Code o The radio training took a total of eight weeks. Charles found that he was treated better here than in basic training After AIT, Charles was sent to Fort Riley, Kansas for some Jungle training o He was there for a short time before he was given a 30 day leave and his order to go to Vietnam (11:00) Charles got on a plane to California where he boarded a ship headed to Vietnam �        o The bunks were stacked close together and there was no room to roll once you laid down o Charles spent his days on the ship cleaning vomit. The ship stopped once because one man had hanged himself o Charles was going to Vietnam with the 9th Division They landed in Cam Ranh Bay around December 13, 1966, near a party beach for officers Charles was designated as a radioman for air warning clearance control o Although he knew how to operate the radio, he still had to learn to do this particular job The 9th Division was stationed at Bearcat Base near Bien Hoa o The barracks that Charles was in was very secure After a few weeks, Charles was infused with the 11th Cavalry o This was done because the army didn’t want the entire division coming back at the same time o The 11th Cavalry was a search and destroy division. They had access to personnel carriers and tanks. Charles was put in K Troop o When he was reassigned, he was flown out into the field where K Troop was K Troop was sent on search and destroy missions as well as recon patrols (in the first few months this was largely done between Saigon and the Cambodian border) o During the night, they went on ambush patrols and set up listening posts o They operated in dense jungles. Instead of walking on existing trails, K Troop cut their own o He joined the 11th before Christmas 1966 and didn’t have major contact with the enemy until May 1967 They were often ambushed by the VC while escorting combat engineers along Highway 1 o Every Tuesday, they stopped at a village along highway 1 to assist villagers. On one occasion, a platoon stopped at a village and was nearly wiped out (21:20) Every night, several men from each personnel carrier were sent out for listening posts and ambush patrols o They never went out with a man from the same carrier. The patrols and guards would stay out all night o When they moved through the jungle, the tanks went first and knocked down the large obstacles for the personnel carriers that followed When they approached a village, they would use translators to communicate with the villagers o Charles and his comrades gathered the villagers and searched the huts for weapons. If any war materials were discovered, they were destroyed along with the huts. o None of the villagers argued with them because they were outgunned. This is why most engagements were ambushes �          They were in a base camp only when they needed to repair their vehicles. Other than that, they formed a circle with the vehicles when they stopped They never operated near the rubber plantations because the rubber trees were too valuable o If they were in an area such as this, it was only to cross from one jungle area to another (25:30) In May 1967, things start to escalate o An engineering unit and one of K Troop’s platoons had fallen under attack and Charles was part of the relief force It seemed that they were getting enemy contact every week o Whenever they got ambushed they were always on a main road headed for the jungle. The enemy always seemed to know where Charles’ unit was going o They would hit K Troop with RPGs and automatic weapons. Some of the soldiers in K Troop looked one way, some looked the other; this allowed them to cover both sides o If the VC hit a vehicle, there would be two explosions because each vehicle carried a large amount of ammunition and explosives. Each destroyed vehicle usually meant that around six men were dead o Charles used a mounted 50 caliber machine gun to fire back with. K Troop was often on their own in the situations. Air support was useful in long ambushes but not in short ones because it took a while for the aircraft to reach their position. The average ambush lasted about 2.5 hours (31:20) K Troop suffered around 50 percent casualties while Charles was in Vietnam K Troop operated independently and didn’t know what the other troops were doing for most of the time Charles and his comrades thought that marching on foot was better than riding in the vehicles o During the time that they were frequently ambushed, no one was killed by rifle fire. Explosions frightened the men more than small arms fire K Troop was eventually sent to a place called Slope 30 o They set up on top of the slope during the day and sent out patrols and listening posts o One night at around midnight, the VC attacked K Troop while Charles was outside of the perimeter with an ambush patrol. All Charles could do was lay low because he was caught between friendly and enemy fire o While the enemy force was retreating, some of them discovered Charles’ position. They engaged each other with rifles and grenades. When the fight was over, Charles and some of his comrades had minor shrapnel wounds Charles went out of the country for R&R twice, once to Bangkok and once to Okinawa o When he went on R&R, he was able to put the fear of combat behind them o They were occasionally allowed to relax in Vietnam during the periods of inactivity All supplies were brought in by chopper �      o Three or four times a week, hot meals were flown in. They ate rations for the rest of the meals o They had access to all the beer they wanted but no one got drunk because it would be miserable in the heat o K Troop came across prostitutes when they moved into populated areas Morale was difficult to maintain because they were often ambushed o Additionally, they had to pick up all of the dead bodies after an engagement (43:00) Charles was awarded the Bronze Star o Charles’ vehicle was not working properly and one of the other vehicles had to drop back so that they wouldn’t be alone. As the two vehicles were following the convoy, the reinforcing vehicle was destroyed with an RPG. o Instead of driving away, Charles turned his vehicle around and returned fire Perhaps ten percent of K Troop was black o None of the men smoked marijuana in the field. Charles tried it once but realized that it was a stupid thing to do when the enemy could attack at any time All of the officers were good except one lieutenant that came in several months before Charles rotated home o They were ordered to go out on a patrol and the lieutenant wanted to march along a dry creek bed. Charles and his comrades refused to do this because they would be sitting ducks if the enemy attacked them. Their captain agreed with Charles and they proceeded to walk the way Charles preferred As his time in Vietnam grew short, Charles was very cautious because a lot of people seemed to get killed just before their tours were up (49:35) When it was time for Charles to leave Vietnam, he was flown out of the field and taken to a processing center o He flew out of Saigon and landed in Oakland Army Base, California, it was December (49:30) Post- Army Life      When he landed in California, it was midnight but there were a few protestors Charles got on a plane to Chicago and from there he went home o He didn’t talk to his family much while he was in Vietnam Within a week of getting home, he went back to work o For about a year, he drank every day after work and got into fights (2 to 3 fights per week) o This largely came to an end when he met his wife Charles went to junior college but he didn’t know about all the things he was entitled to as a veteran o A lot of the benefits were made known to him as men returned from Iraq and Afghanistan He thinks that his time in the military made him a better person o However, he is more alert of his surroundings and his patience is not what it used to be � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_WhortonC1898V Title A name given to the resource Whorton, Charles E (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-11-17 Description An account of the resource Charles Whorton was born on January 2, 1947 in Mobile, Alabama. His family moved to Benton Harbor, Michigan when he was young. In 1966, Charles was drafted into the United States Army and trained as a radio operator. When he arrived in Vietnam in December 1966, Charles was placed in K Troop, 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment. K Troop traveled through the jungle with tanks and armored transport vehicles. Since they were a search and destroy unit, they frequently came into contact with the enemy. When Charles returned from Vietnam, it was difficult for him to adjust to civilian life. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Whorton, Charles E. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/08e5c551571fdf8241d09a4ab7d992d0.mp3 cba56692b189c9f057924f62142a372f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Lent V Series The Sign of the Cross: The Way of Jesus Scripture Text John 12: 20-33 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-19910317 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-03-17 Title A name given to the resource Whose Truth Are You Living? Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on March 17, 1991 entitled "Whose Truth Are You Living?", as part of the series "The Sign of the Cross: The Way of Jesus", on the occasion of Lent V, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: John 12: 20-33. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f142ce0c49cf11ec3397789f207754c2.mp3 3e838d2c5ed35dd3e1ae43db9bbb76e1 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/faa2ff819626dc6961d94d97b38d90ac.pdf 38f85dfca1a2eed1b486890f39d2bdd3 PDF Text Text Whose Truth Are You Living? Eastertide V Scripture: Philippians 3:4-11; 4:10-14; Matthew 28:1-10 Richard A. Rhem Christ Community Church Spring Lake, Michigan April 28, 2002 Transcription of the spoken sermon On Easter I gave you the analogy of the caterpillar and the butterfly, the butterfly, of course, the prime symbol for Easter and for resurrection. I mentioned that the caterpillar takes from the egg certain cells and those cells have within them the blueprint for the legs and the wings of the butterfly, and at a certain point in the development of the caterpillar, those cells begin to create disks within the creature which are perceived by the immune system of that creature as being alien and foreign and therefore are attacked, but eventually they overcome. The zoologist calls those cells imaginal cells, a wonderful name, imaginal cells. They imagine within themselves what that caterpillar can become, and when they finally overcome the resistance of the immune system, the caterpillar is transformed into a butterfly that, in all of its beauty, flies away in freedom. That analogy, of course, is received on Easter Sunday as an analogy of that transformation that occurs at the point of our death. Certainly it is a beautiful analogy for that possibility, that transformation about which I remain agnostic, because who knows what kind of transformation that might be? This morning I want to point out what I really intended to point out but probably didn't have the time or didn't have the presence of mind to do, and that is that as the Easter message title was "Just Imagine the Real Miracle of Easter," I want to point out that that analogy is apropos, as well, for the possibility in our present existence to come to new insight, to come to transforming understanding, to come to a new way of being, to be given the gift of eyes to see and ears to hear, and to see the same things we've always seen, only to see them in a new way such that it is transformative of our life and of our being. So, I raise the question this morning in order to get at that - "Whose Truth Are You Living?" An intentional question - whose truth are you living? Not "Whose Truth Do You Believe?" but whose truth are you living? In other words, what is the vision that has informed your life? What is at the center of your passion, what creates the life map, the sense of orientation for your ordinary days and for those crisis periods that come now and again? What is that at the center, the core of your being? Whose truth are you living? © Grand Valley State University �Whose Truth Are You Living? Richard A. Rhem Page 2 That question is a question intended to illicit an answer from you which, if I were so lucky, would be "my truth." Whose truth are you living? Tell me you're living your truth. Perhaps that seems a bit presumptuous. Maybe that even feels arrogant to you. Live my truth? My truth? Who am I, after all? My truth? I'm a part of a long tradition. Perhaps in answer to my question, rather than saying, "My truth," you might say, "I'm Christian," or "I'm Muslim." Or you might get more particular, you might say, "As a Christian, I'm Protestant." If you're really picky, you might say, "I'm a Lutheran or a Methodist or a Presbyterian." In other words, we define ourselves often in terms of a group with which we are affiliated. We gain our identity through that group-think which has formed and shaped us, the community of which we are a part, and if you would say to me this morning some answer like that, not "My truth," but "The Christian tradition," then I think you would be in good company, most likely with the vast majority of folk who would so define themselves in terms of some such community affiliation. I must say that is not all bad because if you would have answered me, "I live by my truth," you would only have come to your truth through one of the great traditions. Our truth does not emerge in a vacuum. We are shaped and formed, and that is why, in a community like this, we nurture our children and we shape our youth. We have a responsibility to pass on a tradition which has been a positive tradition, a positive power and shaping force in our lives. It has given us order. It has given us some sense of the meaning of life, of the direction of life. It has spoken to us of God and of humankind and of history and culture, and it has helped us to find our way in the passages of life. So, don't hear me denigrate the tradition and the respective traditions, and even the narrowing down of those traditions into creedal forms and confessional groups, for all of us, finally, will have to come in that way if we would come to our own personal place to stand to say, "I stand in my truth. This is my vision. I have seen something and I live by it and its illumination floods my life." Nonetheless, it is possible to move beyond that group identity to a personal vision which can be absolutely transforming and liberating, and maybe if I said it against its opposite, it will make some sense. Recently someone put in my hands a magazine called Islam, and this very nice glossy magazine had on the cover, "Discovering the Truth: What Islam Stands For," and when I went to the lead article, it gives some of the history of Mohammed. It was during one of those times in a cave that God sent his first revelation to Mohammed. Mohammed was now the final messenger of God and would be used to deliver the universal message to all humankind. The Archangel Gabriel came to Mohammed and commanded, "Read." Mohammed, terrified, replied, "I'm not a reader," for he could neither read nor write, as literacy where he lived was rare. The angel took hold of him, squeezed him with incredible force, released him and repeated the command, "Read." Mohammed repeated himself and once again the angel squeezed him until Mohammed thought he could bear it no longer. After the © Grand Valley State University �Whose Truth Are You Living? Richard A. Rhem Page 3 third time, Mohammed felt the intense ringing of bells and heard Gabriel recite the literal word of God, words so powerful that it felt like they were inscribed on his heart, "Read, in the name of your Lord who created you." He ran from the cave in terror, trying to escape the intense and frightening experience, but everywhere he looked on the horizon, he saw Gabriel. He could not escape, but he had already been chosen. Over a period of twenty-three years, the revelation continued to come. It is a magazine like Christianity Today or a house organ like The Banner of the Christian Reformed Church or The Church Herald of the Reformed Church. It is very nicely done and it presents the truth of Islam while it says "Discover the Truth: What Islam Stands For." And then it gives accounts like this and I was reminded as I read it of much Christian literature that assumes again, quite naturally, this is the truth. Gabriel did visit Mary, the virgin Mary. Do you believe that? If you believe that, do you believe this? If you believe this, then there is a revelation beyond what is here, a final revelation, a final testament. The respective religions claim to have the truth and so I say, "I'm a Muslim," or "I'm a Christian," then my truth is defined for me. There is a dogma, there is a teaching. It is all there in creedal expression and confessional statement, in ritual form. All of the accoutrements of the religious experience of the respective traditions, all of them assume a kind of literality about their truthfulness and its congruence with reality as it is. So, if you belong to such a group, you don't have to have your own truth. You could have group-think. Now, once again to set this over against what I want to get at this morning. I often have people say to me, "We don't believe that!" Oh, don't we? Who is we? We don't believe that, or we believe so and so. We do? As a group, as a community. Have we all thought it through? Have we all come to a personal appropriation of that community expression? Hardly. We find our identity in that group connection, just like we find our identity in the U.S. of A. or the Red Wings who won again last night. We get our identity out of that kind of group affiliation and we simply become a part of it, and I want to suggest to you this morning that there is the possibility of a transformation when one can move beyond that group-think, beyond that traditional statement, to one's own truth, to one's own vision. There is the possibility of finding one's being transformed here and now, coming to that epiphany saying, "Oh, I see!" To have eyes to see and ears to hear the same old thing in a brand new way, which can be transformative. Paul was such a person. You may say, "Oh, yes, Paul. Thank you very much, I'm not Paul. I'm never going to be knocked off my horse by a blinding light from heaven. I'm just ordinary. Don't push me too much." But, think of Paul. Of course, Paul was a religious genius. I think Paul was one of those special vessels, one whose epiphany becomes epiphanic for a whole community of people who probably more than Jesus is responsible for the shape of the Christian faith and Christian tradition. Paul, and I read his little © Grand Valley State University �Whose Truth Are You Living? Richard A. Rhem Page 4 autobiographical piece, was deeply traditioned. He had the right connections, the right parents, the right bloodlines, the right sacramental ritual discipline, the right affiliation in terms of Pharisee concern for the serious observance of the law, engaged and zealous, so he confesses, "I persecuted the Church." In terms of being responsible to that tradition that he had embraced, blameless. He sets all that forth because he says, "I set it all to the side, because of this transforming vision that I had." I simply lift Paul up as one who was so deeply traditioned, but by the grace of God was able to move out of the hedgerows and the binding narrowness of a strong tradition into a grand and glorious freedom that enabled him to soar. Paul experienced the transformation such that it knocked his socks off, and perhaps that is rare, but I hold him up as an example of what can happen and to make the point that all of that tradition, all of that structure, all of that ritual, all of those creedal statements and confessional expressions - all of it is the scaffolding through which and by which the building is erected. And all of it is good and all of it is valuable and all of it is of worth, because you can't erect the building from ground up without all of that paraphernalia, and neither can you come to your truth, to your personal vision, to that which you'd die for because it enables you to live. You cannot come to that, either, without the help and the aid of all of the agencies of the religious experience. All of those things are simply the means to the end of the vision of God that sets you free. That is the transforming thing of Paul. It was not a matter of Paul, the Jew, becoming a Christian. There wasn't even Christianity at the time. Paul was born a Jew and died a Jew as Jesus was born a Jew and died a Jew. This was not a conversion from one religion to another. This was a conversion about the understanding of religion, that religion is not a burden to be borne, not a routine to be followed, an obligation to be executed, but religion, all of it, is to be entered into and practiced in order that we might be set free from religion, in order that we might play fast and loose with it, in order that we might live lightly with it, valuing it for what it is and continuing to make it available in order that it might continue to be the agent of nurture and formation, but then, to recognize that it can be shuck off in order that one can have wings to soar. A pastor is crazy to tell his people that. The philosopher George Santayana wrote this marvelous statement: Ultimate insights (now, that's what we are talking about) have a tendency to undermine the orthodox approaches by which they have been reached. Wow! Did you get that? Ultimate insights have a tendency to undermine the orthodox approaches by which they have been reached. The saint pulls his ladder up with him into his private heaven. I get the vision. I see it. I'm thankful for all of the accoutrements of that structure, the community that has brought me to the point where I can fly, and then I pull my ladder up into my private heaven and I don't tell you about it, because otherwise you might think you don't need me © Grand Valley State University �Whose Truth Are You Living? Richard A. Rhem Page 5 anymore. The community of the faithful on whose sturdy, dogmatic shoulders he has climbed must not be deprived of the means of following his example. In other words, I have to be very careful to talk to you about my truth and to suggest for you your truth, because it is the sturdy shoulders of the dogmatic formulas upon which I have climbed to my vision, and if I undermine the sturdy shoulders of the dogmatic tradition, how will you join me in your private heaven? Now, of course, I only do this because I can trust you with it. I only do this because you are a mature community. I only do this because somewhere there has to be a community that is honest about the fact that all religious practice is valuable and relative, important and non- essential, and all of it is for the end and the aim of a vision of God that transforms human life and allows community to be a community of peace and reconciliation. Some years ago, The Economist magazine had a special edition on God, and there was a statement in it which I never forgot. It went like this: The trouble with the world is that there are people who believe they understand God perfectly and they meet other people who think the same way, only differently. Is that a picture of our world today? While it is necessary, in the nurture and the formation of children and youth, and adults, to create the possibility for the probing of reality, of God, of grace, of meaning through structures that have stood the test of time, it is also high time that as a Church we get honest. I suppose part of it is all of this terrible struggle in the Catholic Church right now, and all of this language about the Holy Father and all of the folderol about the robes and braids and miters, and I see all of that and I think, "Religion institutionalized is a sickness." But, I don't know how else to create the possibility of you coming to your own truth unless we continue to think, probe, worship, engage in our ritual, and then trust that now and again, here and there, someone will say, "Ah, I see! I see! I see!" And one or two a year makes it all worthwhile © Grand Valley State University � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Eastertide IV Scripture Text Philippians 3:4-11, 4:10-14, Matthew 28:1-10 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-20020428 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2002-04-28 Title A name given to the resource Whose Truth Are You Living? Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on April 28, 2002 entitled "Whose Truth Are You Living?", on the occasion of Eastertide IV, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: Philippians 3:4-11, 4:10-14, Matthew 28:1-10. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives Eastertide Transformation https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/570f8e1648aa116e545b48d7bfcd1f71.pdf 5844704f0970902c9ab930211f87261b PDF Text Text Whose Truth Are You Living? By What Authority? Matthew 7: 18-29; Luke 19: 45-20:8 Richard A. Rhem Lakeshore Interfaith Community, Mothers’ Trust Ganges, Michigan August 29, 2010 I invite you to think with me about a subject that has fascinated me, even tortured me for years, indeed from youth. I was an old young man. Warped from the womb. I had been dedicated to the service of God by my father while still safe in my mother’s womb. I learned that on the day of my ordination in a letter from my father. I was a serious and thoughtful youth. Nurtured in the faith, solidly traditional, I wondered about the Christian faith – I believed it with heart and soul, but early on I worried that maybe it might be swallowed up by unbelief. Would there be a church to serve when I came of age? I did not really savor my years of education – my studies were for the purpose of being a minister – I endured the seven years of college and seminary so that finally I could get on with ministry. I never experienced normal adolescent doubt, nor one day of rebellion against authority, parental or otherwise. I came out of college and seminary with the faith with which I entered intact. I was a very conservative Dutch Reformed Calvinist. My first congregation, First Reformed of Spring Lake, was a great call but I was a bit threatened because the tenor of the congregation was more liberal than I was. During the third year there, the Reformed Church, in collaboration with the Presbyterian Church, brought out a new church school curriculum for children through adults. It was called “The Covenant Life Curriculum”. I studied the Foundation papers and taught an introductory course to an adult group. It was a bit challenging. Both the foundation papers and the introductory course dealt with the view of Scripture that informed the curriculum. About that same time the Reformed Church, through, I believe, its theological commission, wrote a report on Biblical authority. I remember so well debating the report on the floor of the Muskegon Classis. I was wary of the report. The phrase that troubled me was that “Scripture was infallible in all that it intends to teach.” The qualification “intends to teach” was saying, for example, that Scripture did not intend to teach a scientific account of creation, something that seems so obvious to me now. However at the time I saw that phrase as giving wiggle room to those who want to evade Scriptural authority. In those dark ages of my development I wanted an “infallible and inerrant” Scripture. © Grand Valley State University   �Whose Truth Are You Living? Richard A. Rhem Page 2   In retrospect, I realize how large loomed the issue of authority for me – guaranteeing absolute truth. I wanted a thoroughly authoritative Word of God as the only guide for faith and practice. Again, in retrospect I realize that that need arose from a deep-seated insecurity within me. I was very defensive against any crack in the armor of biblical authority because the Bible was the Word of God on which I posited my whole ministry. From my present understanding, I can see that my faith, my message, what I felt charged to proclaim was not really an assured inward experience to share but a creedal, confessional system on which I had placed my whole life and ministry. I was dead serious about it. I believed with my whole being that at issue were heaven and hell, salvation and damnation. I shouldn’t be too hard on myself as though this were a system of belief external to my own spiritual life. I had from childhood through youth and into adulthood a meaningful piety. My experience was deep and personal but, I now realize, I relied on the external prop of a system of absolute truth rooted in an infallible and inerrant Holy Book and, interestingly, I was intelligent enough to know what I needed – a solid foundation on which to base my own spiritual life and my ministry– was not without some weak links in the system. About the same time I was debating Scriptural authority on the floor of classis and being introduced to a more progressive, or liberal view of Scripture (even though the Covenant Life Curriculum was still very mainstream conservative), I encountered a pastoral situation that shook me. Being a young pastor, I had much to do with our young people. I took them to a Bible Conference for Youth for Christ week. We bonded tightly. I loved those kids. One young lady attended Sunday School and youth groups whose parents did not attend the services and were not members of the congregation. She was one of a whole group who made her confession of faith. The next summer she went away with a friend to work in a motel with her friend’s mother. The mother was a Mormon. My dear young person came home, confused and eventually embraced the Mormon faith. I dealt with her as best I could. I gave her biblical texts. Her friend’s mother gave her texts from the Book of Mormon. I lost that struggle and was heart-broken. Strange as it may seem, that seemingly rather minor pastoral event was an epiphany for me. I, who had argued for an infallible, inerrant Word of God met my match when my dear young person met my book with her new-found book. I’m sure there were many dynamics that impinged on her decision but what I had to face up to squarely was that, if I only had a text, a rival text could neutralize it or overcome it. Put that pastoral crisis together with a fresh probing of biblical authority and I was on the way to a whole new understanding of authority in Christian experience. A long arduous journey lay ahead of me. After a year I left Spring Lake for a very conservative congregation in New Jersey where I introduced the Covenant of Life Curriculum, which met strong opposition from some of the leadership. After three years I realized I would have to dedicate years to bringing © Grand Valley State University �Whose Truth Are You Living? Richard A. Rhem Page 3   that congregation around – and it could have been done – or leave to fulfill a desire I had when I graduated from seminary – to continue my studies in Europe. I decided to go on to post-graduate study and was most fortunate to be accepted at the University of Leiden and Professor Dr. Hendrikus Berkhof who became my mentor. How well I remember those years. Berkhof was a marvelous teacher. I would formulate my questions in preparation for meeting with him. I really wanted answers but he would respond to my questions with “Ja, Ja, that is the question.” I knew that was the question but I wanted the answer. Instead he left me twisting in the wind because he knew the critical issue was learning the questions, not finding the answers because in these matters of religious probing and spiritual inquiry there were no simple and easy answers. Here we are not dealing with the hard data of the natural sciences but with the probing of the spirit – or the Spirit. In this arena one must give up on easy answers, hard data, realizing one is on a journey, engaged in a quest which takes one beyond the limits of proof and verification. For four years I read and read and read, and I struggled to catch up on the education I had never received, in large part because I was not open to new insight and growth. But now I was. I was not at all certain I would have a message to preach when once this oasis of in-depth inquiry were concluded. But I had come finally to a place where I wanted to follow the inquiry with integrity wherever it led me. For me, for anyone, that is revolutionary – the threshold of open and honest inquiry. I was beginning to see how my narrow and constricted view of biblical authority kept me from an honest encounter with the larger questions of faith and life. I saw how concrete issues in the church could not be handled with the view of Scripture I had brought to my ministry. One such issue at the time was the ordination of women. I began to see how the culture of biblical times could not be simply transposed into the present and that the Scripture bore all the marks of its culture of origin. On one occasion I said to Professor Berkhof that I should write a dissertation on biblical authority in terms of my growing understanding in order to deal fruitfully with issues such as the ordination of women. He smiled and said, “Do you know what they will do to you?” He understood well how institutional religion works. And I was beginning to understand the tension between what one holds as authoritative, the source of authority – be it a sacred book or an institution, a religious community culture or tight tribal pattern, and what one senses is true and right and good in one’s own depths. All tribes, cultures, institutions evolve over time but most often at a snail’s pace and change that results is often the consequence of social upheaval that creates a crisis forcing new postures and positions on the relevant issues or views involved. And often there is some catalytic agent, some charismatic leader that creates the © Grand Valley State University �Whose Truth Are You Living? Richard A. Rhem Page 4   focus and forces the change. For example, a Gandhi or a Martin Luther King. Or – Jesus! This process which happens in the broader culture in all areas of human endeavor – religion, politics, economics, social theory – and our personal response is the phenomenon on which I invite you to think with me. Thus my title: “Whose Truth are You Living? By What Authority?” and my expansion of that title: We are shaped and formed as individuals and communities, shaped and formed by parents, teachers, pastors, political leaders, cultural icons. Much of our lives we live on “borrowed truth”, “truth” declared by our “tribe,” perhaps a holy book, a religious tradition and its institutional form – maybe even by a claim of rational absolutes or the claim only reason can determine truth. That being the case, how does one come to one’s own truth? How does one emerge from one’s “dogmatic slumbers?” Have you? Or would you rather not?….There is more than enough to keep us wondering together for a hour. I had just written the chronicle of my own struggle to find my own truth, my own voice, when I received Thursday’s blog from Tomdispatch that comes several times a week. I don’t always read it but the one whose work was featured Thursday was Andrew Bacevich. I have read a couple of his books and find he speaks to me. Andrew Bacevich is a professor of history and international relations at Boston University. A brief bio from Wikipedia records: Bacevich graduated from West Point in 1969 and served in the United States Army during the Vietnam War, serving in Vietnam from the summer of 1970 to the summer of 1971. Later he held posts in Germany, including the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment, the United States, and the Persian Gulf up to his retirement from the service with the rank of Colonel in the early 1990’s. He holds a Ph.D. in American Diplomatic History from Princeton University, and taught at West Point and Johns Hopkins University prior to joining the faculty at Boston University in 1998. On May 13, 2007, Bacevich’s son, 1 Lt Andrew J. Bacevich, Jr., was killed in action in Iraq by an improvised explosive device sough of Samarra in Salah ad DinGovernate. The younger Bacevich, 27, was a First Lieutenant in the U.S. Army, assigned to the 3rd Battalion, 8th U.S. Cavalry Regiment, 1st Cavalry Division. The Tomdispath blog was the introduction to Bacevich’s latest work, Washington Rules: America’s Path to Permanent War (Metropolitan Books). As I read Andrew Bacevich’s account of his evolution, it was haunting; it was very similar to what I had just written about myself. He writes, “My own education did not commence until I had reached middle age.” It happened for him at the © Grand Valley State University �Whose Truth Are You Living? Richard A. Rhem Page 5   Brandenburg Gate in Berlin soon after the Wall had fallen. Without going into detail here, let me just cite his own description of what was going on within him. Huddling among the scarred columns, those peddlers – almost certainly off-duty Russian soldiers awaiting redeployment home – constituted a subversive presence. They were loose ends of a story that was supposed to have ended neatly when the Berlin Wall came down. As we hurried off to find warmth and a meal, this disconcerting encounter stuck with me, and I began to entertain this possibility: that the truths I had accumulated over the previous twenty years as a professional soldier – especially truths about the Cold War and U.S. foreign policy – might not be entirely true. By temperament and upbringing, I had always taken comfort in orthodoxy. In a life spent subject to authority, deference had become a deeply ingrained habit. I found assurance in conventional wisdom. Now, I started, however hesitantly, to suspect that orthodoxy might be a sham. I began to appreciate that authentic truth is never simple and that any version of truth handed down from on high – whether by presidents, prime ministers, or archbishops – is inherently suspect. The powerful, I came to see, reveal truth only to the extent that it suits them. Even then, the truths to which they testify come wrapped in a nearly invisible filament of dissembling, deception, and duplicity. The exercise of power necessarily involves manipulation and is antithetical to candor. I came to these obvious points embarrassingly late in life. “Nothing is so astonishing in education,” the historian Henry Adams once wrote, “as the amount of ignorance it accumulates in the form of inert facts.” Until that moment I had too often confused education with accumulating and cataloging facts. In Berlin, at the foot of the Brandenburg Gate, I began to realize that I had been a naif. And so, at age 41, I set out, in a halting and haphazard fashion, to acquire a genuine education. Bacevich records a military visit to the university city of Jena in 1990. What he saw and experienced in his visits to Jena and Berlin “offered glimpses of a reality at odds with my most fundamental assumptions. Uninvited and unexpected, subversive forces had begun to infiltrate my consciousness. Bit by bit, my worldview started to crumble.” Retiring from the military, Bacevich re-evaluated the assumptions that had constituted his “truth.” Viewing the rise of the imperial drive of this nation in its policy decisions he was shocked and disillusioned by the course of our international relations over the past two decades. “What should stand in the place of such discarded convictions,” he asked, “…arriving at even an approximation of truth would entail subjecting conventional wisdom, both past and present, to sustained and searching scrutiny. Cautiously at first but with growing confidence, this I vowed to do.” He writes, © Grand Valley State University �Whose Truth Are You Living? Richard A. Rhem Page 6   …Doing so meant shedding habits of conformity acquired over decades. All of my adult life I had been a company man, only dimly aware of the extent to which institutional loyalties induce myopia. Asserting independence required first recognizing the extent to which I had been socialized to accept certain things as unimpeachable. Here then were the preliminary steps essential to making education accessible. Over a period of years, a considerable store of debris had piled up. Now, it all had to go. Belatedly, I learned that more often than not what passes for conventional wisdom is simply wrong. Adopting fashionable attitudes to demonstrate one’s trustworthiness – the world of politics is flush with such people hoping thereby to qualify for inclusion in some inner circle – is akin to engaging in prostitution in exchange for promissory notes. It’s not only demeaning but downright foolhardy. My intention in bringing in Andrew Bacevich is not to deal with the content of his transformation; that is incidental to my purpose. I cite him simply as an illustration of one who experienced a shaking revolution in his worldview. He had been living by a truth that he could no longer affirm and that is a shattering experience. As he records that experience I get goose bumps because I’ve been there. I well remember times while studying in Europe that I wondered if I would ever again have a gospel to preach – or, for that matter, whether I would have anything to preach. I wondered if I might not have to sneak off into academia hoping to find a respectable teaching position. To have a deep formation of mind and heart called into question and then to press on facing the possibility that one’s whole life project was in jeopardy – that, simply stated, one might have committed one’s life to what one could no longer affirm is a scary business. It takes courage to face up to that possibility. Sometimes one comes to a point of crisis and has no other option. Sometimes it may be simply a gnawing in the soul, wondering about the mystery of human being, a hunger and thirst for finding one’s own voice, tired of living on borrowed truth, needing to be living out one’s deepest intuitions and reasons of the heart. One of the finest accounts of that personal quest is Herman Hesse’s Nobel prize winning novel, Siddhartha. In the novel, Siddhartha, a young man, leaves his family, of India’s highest caste – Brahmins – to pursue a contemplative life. After some years with a group of ascetics he leaves that path and enters a life of the flesh, fathering a son with a beautiful courtesan. But then growing restless again, bored and sickened by lust and greed, he moves on. Near despair, he comes to a river where he hears a unique sound. The sound signals the true beginning of his life – the beginning of suffering, rejection, peace and, finally, wisdom. It is a wonderful novel – a shimmering, iridescent tale of spiritual quest. Siddhartha had been introduced to the finest wisdom and knowledge of his Brahmin heritage, © Grand Valley State University �Whose Truth Are You Living? Richard A. Rhem Page 7   But where were the Brahmins, the priests, the wise men, who were successful not only in having this most profound knowledge, but in experiencing it? He respected his father; he was worthy of admiration; his manner was quiet and noble. He lived a good life and was wise but Siddhartha wondered – did he live in bliss? Was he at peace? The young man concluded one must find the source within one’s own self, one must possess it. In his wanderings Siddhartha meets Gotama, the Buddha. He recognizes the wisdom of the Buddha’s enlightenment. He is everything that has been claimed for him. But after hearing his teachings he makes bold to speak with the great man and he is graciously received. Graciously and sincerely he acknowledges Gotama’s clear and cogent teachings; yet he raises the key issue for him. “Do not be angry with me, O Illustrious One,” said the young man. “I have not spoken to you thus to quarrel with you about words. You are right when you say that opinions mean little, but may I say one thing more. I did not doubt you for one moment. Not for one moment did I doubt that you were the Buddha, that you have reached the highest goal which so many thousands of Brahmins and Brahmins’ sons are striving to reach. You have done so by your own seeking, in your own way, through thought, through mediation, through knowledge, through enlightenment. You have learned nothing through teachings., and so I think, O Illustrious One, that nobody finds salvation through teachings. To nobody, O Illustrious One, can you communicate in words and teachings what happened to you in the hour of your enlightenment. The teachings of the enlightened Buddha embrace much, they teach much – how to live righteously, how to avoid evil. But there is one thing that this clear, worthy instruction does not contain; it does not contain the secret of what the Illustrious One himself experienced… There you have it. Knowledge can be taught, instruction given, but the one thing Siddhartha sought cannot be taught – “the secret of what the Illustrious One himself experienced.” Inward illumination or the experience of enlightenment cannot be passed on. One can learn from stores of knowledge and expose oneself to the wisdom of the ages but to experience the inward illumination cannot be gotten from another – from a wise teacher or religious institution. Epiphanies happen. If we are fortunate they happen to us. They happen not in a vacuum. They do not happen in haphazard fashion to just anyone. They are the reward of those who hunger and thirst for wisdom and understanding so that one lives out of one’s own vision of the truth. And they happen most often to those in whom the spiritual thirst has been quickened in a community shaped by a vision of the truth. Further, inward illumination comes most often to one who has plumbed deeply one of the great traditions or spiritual paths. To win through to a place to stand that elicits one’s true and authentic voice is demanding. But the © Grand Valley State University �Whose Truth Are You Living? Richard A. Rhem Page 8   reward is worth the struggle. To live from one’s true self is life’s highest achievement. The philosopher George Santayana wrote this marvelous statement: “Ultimate insights (now, that’s what we are talking about) have a tendency to undermine the orthodox approaches by which they have been reached.” Ultimate insights, or the moment of enlightenment – I think that is what Santayana is referring to. The dogmatic structures can bring one to the threshold of that moment – apart from some such structure one would not arrive there. He goes on to say the enlightened one must not then undo that structure lest one thereby deprive another from the sturdy dogmatic shoulders that have supported one in the quest for “ultimate insights” by which one transcends the dogmatic structure. It is valuable if not yet “ultimate.” Hesse’s Siddhartha may suggest the spiritual quest is a lonely way which one engages in all alone but I think that misses the author’s point. It is a story of an individual in his search encountering a variety of experiences but the central claim is that no one, no external authority, be it person or book or institution, can effect the transformation where one exclaims, ”Oh, I see!” That must happen from the inside out. But, again, if that is a solitary experience, its “moment” is prepared in the soil of tradition, of community, of family involving spiritual practice, be it meditation, corporate worship involving liturgy, ritual, sacrament, proclamation based on the founding story. That moment is variously named. Jesus spoke of being “born from above” or “born anew,” popularly spoken of as being “born again,” in his conversation with Nicodemus – a teacher of Israel, a leader of the Jews. He came to Jesus “by night” not wanting to advertise the fact that he was giving credibility to Jesus. Why did he come? Perhaps because, as Siddhartha expressed to the Buddha, one can be full of true and wise teachings and still be without inward illumination – that is, the experience of enlightenment when one truly “sees” with the soul. In the early years of my ministry I remember the tension – regeneration – being born again was the work of the Holy Spirit in the Christian scheme of things. I could catechize, teach and preach but I could not effect that new birth. And for those who claimed that experience, it was more likely to be an assent to a body of belief which assent resulted in the person being considered a Christian. Some of the more dramatic conversions might be referred to as “born again experiences” but that was not the rule. There are branches of Christianity and in other religious traditions as well, where the emotions are targeted in an effort to bring the people to a charismatic experience or ecstasy. There are reports of such experiences as being life © Grand Valley State University �Whose Truth Are You Living? Richard A. Rhem Page 9   changing but the more common experience is a temporary emotional high and in some groups or communities the corporate gathering is the time for an emotional “fix.” But Jesus was not speaking of the emotions but rather an inward transformation, a spiritual birth effected by the Spirit of God. For some there is an identifiable date and place where the “lights” went on. I suspect for most who live from their own interior – their own compass of soul and intuitive vision, the transformation is gradual, one perhaps coming to realize one day that one’s whole being has been transformed. St. Paul was an example of crisis, of an unforgettable moment of encounter. For him a vision, a voice, and a 180 degree turn. But the moment of crisis did not stand alone. The very frenzy with which he was opposing the Jewish Jesus movement, the movement called “The People of the Way” was evidence that he was fighting something he sensed might be genuine, real, true. “The Hound of Heaven” had been pursuing him. The autobiographical note in his letter to the Philippians describes his life-transforming experience. He warns against those he considers false teachers and then very interestingly claims his detractors can’t stand in his shadow at their own game. Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of those who mutilate the flesh! For it is we who are the circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and boast in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh – even though I, too, have reason for confidence in the flesh. If anyone else has reason to be confident in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, a member of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. That was the pre-Damascus-Road Paul and obviously he had been serious – a real religious “blue blood” as it were. And from other writings we know he valued all of that highly. But he had seen something else. Paul’s “conversion” was not to another religion. He was born and he died a Jew as Jesus was born and died a Jew. But that moment of illumination changed everything, as he writes. Yet whatever gains I had, these I have come to regard as loss because of Christ. More than that, I regard everything as loss because of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and I regard them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but one that comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God based on faith. I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the sharing of his sufferings by becoming © Grand Valley State University �Whose Truth Are You Living? Richard A. Rhem Page10   like him in his death, if somehow I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Paul, more than Jesus, gave shape to the Jewish Jesus movement that embraced non-Jews and eventually became the Christian Church. He was as passionate to proclaim his new insight as he had been to stamp out “The Way,” pre-Damascus Road. And there is no question that he was effective and his ministry bore great fruit. It is my sense, however, that he was not as effective as Jesus in reaching the heart of those who were addressed. In the Gospels we read that Jesus held the crowds with his teaching and story telling. At the conclusion of the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew writes, Now when Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were astounded at his teaching, for he taught them as one having authority, and not as their scribes. (Matthew 7: 28-29) And as his ministry came to a climax in Jerusalem following the Palm Sunday event, Luke records: Then he entered the temple and began to drive out those who were selling things there; and he said, “It is written, ‘My house shall be a house of prayer’; but you have made it a den of robbers.” Every day he was teaching in the temple. The chief priests, the scribes, and the leaders of the people kept looking for a way to kill him; but they did not find anything they could do, for all the people were spellbound by what they heard. One day, as he was teaching the people in the temple and telling the good news, the chief priests and the scribes came with the elders and said to him, “Tell us, by what authority are you doing these things? Who is it who gave you this authority? He answered them, “I will also ask you a question, and you tell me: Did the baptism of John come from heaven, or was it of human origin?” They discussed it with one another, saying, “If we say,' From heaven,’ he will say, ‘Why did you not believe him?’ But if we say, ‘Of human origin,’ all the people will stone us; for they are convinced that John was a prophet.” So they answered that they did not know where it came from. Then Jesus said to them, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things.” © Grand Valley State University �Whose Truth Are You Living? Richard A. Rhem Page11   I find the juxtaposition of the citations from Matthew and Luke fascinating. The authenticity of Jesus as one speaking his own deepest truth caused the people to hear him as one having authority. Yet, of course, authority that emanated from within him for he had no power. The Temple “authorities,” scribes and elders, on the other hand had power but lacked the authority that stems from inner being. So the powerless Jesus is heard as one speaking with authority; the authorities in power are powerless with the people. What Luke records of the Temple authorities asking Jesus by what authority he carried out the prophetic protest in the Temple presents us with a typical case of those in power threatened by one who clearly has that inward strength and sense of presence that draws others to himself and is able to enlist others in a movement for change. We see it again and again in religion, in politics and government. Once in power the prime consideration too often becomes how to protect and preserve and perpetuate the position of power. And that’s the difference. A Jesus of historical record, a fictional Siddhartha are not about power. They are about effecting change in themselves and in community from egoistic ambition to compassion, to empathy, to union. That is the wonder of such transformation. One lives with a heart that embraces, marked by love. Not that one is without principle, without passion for justice, for human wellbeing. But one is wary of ideological positions that divide and blind one to a larger vision. One is able to listen, to seek deeper understanding, to empathize with the other. And one becomes sensitive to one’s own limits, biases, fears and blind spots. For much of my own journey, the early years of ministry, being born by the Spirit from above was in order to be saved. Salvation was narrowly conceived – salvation from self, sin and guilt. Salvation to find its reward in another realm in a future world. Too late, but thankfully at last, I yield to Siddhartha’s truth – the experience of enlightenment is the experience of salvation in which I find my truth, my voice. My authority is within and here and now I am at home, at peace, mantled by Grace, trusting the deep intuitions of my heart – the gift of being born from above. And so, in conclusion, whose truth are you living? By what authority? I wish I could effect in you the experience which, transcending all knowledge and teaching, would enable you to say, “Oh! I see!” and then to rest, to trust the intuitions of your heart – in a word – to be born from above. That I cannot do; no one can. Thank God I suspect most of you know the experience. And if you find yourself still wandering and wondering, hear this word from the great Hebrew prophet, Jeremiah, who speaks in God’s place _ When you search for me, you will find me; if you seek me with all your heart. (Jeremiah 29: 13) © Grand Valley State University �Whose Truth Are You Living? Richard A. Rhem References: Andrew Bacevich. Washington Rules: America’s Path to Permanent War. Metropolitan Books, 2010. Herman Hesse. Siddhartha. Bantam Classics, 1981. © Grand Valley State University Page12   � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Lakeshore Interfaith Community Scripture Text Matthew 7:18-29, Luke 19:45-20:8 Location The location of the interview Lakeshore Interfaith Center, Ganges References Andrew Bacevich. Washington Rules: America's Path to Permanent War. Metropolitan Books, 2010. Herman Hesse.Siddhartha. Bantam Classics, 1981. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-20100829 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-08-29 Title A name given to the resource Whose Truth Are You Living? By What Authority? Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on August 29, 2010 entitled "Whose Truth Are You Living? By What Authority?", on the occasion of Lakeshore Interfaith Community, at Lakeshore Interfaith Center, Ganges. Scripture references: Matthew 7:18-29, Luke 19:45-20:8. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives Spiritual Transformation https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/264d5834425cc69103038c7a2e5d1e16.mp3 bad34bd955aceaba073d8e7b27b782fc https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ae91d9c2f20a64a447bc4cd0b6195a3a.pdf 79f5f7b94edba797fa64a6e412e07d31 PDF Text Text Why I Believe in Purgatory Text: I Corinthians 3: 14-15; Luke 12: 47-48 Richard A. Rhem Christ Community Church Spring Lake, Michigan Advent, December 15, 1985 Transcription of the spoken sermon Purgatory is a foreign word in a Protestant pulpit. It is even a greater surprise to find it in a title such as I have given to this message: "Why I Believe In Purgatory." Perhaps it is just a teaser: baiting you a bit to get you to return - an attention catcher. You will have to judge that for yourself when we are finished. In the meantime, I must declare the seriousness with which I am treating the subject. Purgatory conjures up all sorts of ghosts in our minds and certainly there is much in the history of the tradition of the Roman Catholic Church with which I cannot agree. Yet there is a reality, a truth to which that teaching pointed, and we may well have missed that truth because our forefathers in the Reformation threw out the idea of Purgatory with all of the many abuses that went along with it. Before we get into the idea itself, let me remind you of our deliberations this Advent Season. We are considering the great questions of the End. The drama of history will have its End. That is Advent's theme: the King is coming. God will bring Creation to its consummation. We personally will have our End; we will die. And then what? We have affirmed that there is life after life. Death remains the last enemy but its sting has been removed; it is a conquered foe. The grave has been robbed of its fearsome power. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again; even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. (I Thessalonians 4:14) Therefore we do not grieve as those who have no hope; we have a basis for comforting one another. We have seen, too, that the New Testament sets forth a double image of the End: Heaven and Hell, Glorification and Condemnation, Union with God and © Grand Valley State University   �Why I Believe in Purgatory Richard A. Rhem Page 2   Separation from God. We quoted the pithy statement of C.S. Lewis in The Great Divorce: There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." (p. 66F) The traditional teaching of the Church and the conventional understanding of most of the Church is simply that those who receive Christ will be saved and those who reject him will be damned. But a little sober reflection - and reflection on this subject ought to be sober shows us that the matter is not quite that simple. Even if those who are exposed to the Gospel are judged on their acceptance or rejection of Christ - what about those who never heard? What about those who die in infancy? What about the mentally impaired? A further serious question: What about those who have been terribly wounded by the Church itself? What about those who have been abused as children and are never able to trust? What about those who have received only a perversion and distortion of the Gospel? It would seem that we must begin to make some exception, some qualification. Then, too, we have noted that the witness of the New Testament is not consistent. Several texts in Matthew and Revelation especially speak of eternal torment but several statements in Paul's letters seem to point in the direction of universal salvation. Therefore I raised the question whether or not it might be possible that God's grace might finally triumph in the case of all persons; whether God would finally be "all in all" with every remnant of opposition to His Rule of Grace wiped out. I suggested that perhaps God's "Yes" to us in Jesus might be stronger than our "No." God respects our response. He will never coerce. His is always a gracious invitation. Therefore, just as our "no" turned to "yes" by His grace must be authentically our own, just so our "no" maintained is always a possibility. It remains a possibility and witnesses to the seriousness of our decision. But what if in His infinite patience He never gives up? (I asked you whether you hoped Hell might be finally empty.) I suspect you have thought about that. I suspect, too, I would receive a variety of responses. Let us admit at the outset we cannot know the answer to the question as to whether Hell will finally consume some eternally or whether Grace will finally triumph completely. In either case, the reality of judgment is a reality through which we all must pass. There is a double judgment for each of us. First, the judgment regarding eternal © Grand Valley State University �Why I Believe in Purgatory Richard A. Rhem Page 3   salvation. Second, the judgment regarding the character of our lives - the story we write with our lives. The first is determined by our relationship with Jesus Christ. He is the Saviour of the world. God sent His Son into the world, not to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:17 And Paul declared, There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:1 Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 5:1 In John's Gospel we read: Truly, truly I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. John 5:24 Thus judgment is passed. The verdict is not still out. The acquittal has been granted. We possess new eternal life. But there is a second aspect to judgment that remains to be experienced by every person, that is the judgment of our work or our lives. This judgment has nothing to do with whether a person is saved or lost. This judgment has to do with seeing our lives in God's light, seeing our lives played out before us in His presence. The main contention of this message is that God is not done with us at the moment of our death. I can base that contention on Scripture in regard to those who die trusting in God through Jesus Christ. I will suggest that the possibility of an "empty hell" can be based only on the possibility of a continuing process of encounter between God and the person who dies without an experience of His grace. Let us first look at the Scripture. To begin with, we must recognize that there is not much to go on because the whole thrust of Scripture is the imperative to repentance and faith and the whole stress is on the urgency of decision. Yet there are indications that there is something more. Our first Scripture investigation is Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, Chapter 3. Let me acknowledge immediately that this passage can be used only indirectly for the purposes of establishing the main contention of this message - namely that God is not done with us at the moment of our death. Paul is talking to a particular © Grand Valley State University �Why I Believe in Purgatory Richard A. Rhem Page 4   congregation about a specific problem - divisions in the Church. Dealing with that issue he decries the choosing up of sides, identifying with one leader rather than another and thus forming factions in the Church. He points to the one foundation of the Church, Jesus Christ, and says all who build on that foundation, which he had himself laid in Corinth, must take care how they build. But all are co-laborers. Whether they plant or water, they work as a team. I Corinthians 3:8 That refers to the image of the garden. One plants, one waters, but God makes it grow. The image of the building picks up the idea of foundation and superstructures. Christ is the foundation. He, Paul, Apollos and the other apostles build the superstructure. If they build well the building will stand; if they build of faulty materials the building will not meet the test. This is where we touch our interest - the idea of judgment: This is not a judgment regarding one's eternal salvation; this is a judgment of one's works or a judgment of one's life. This is a judgment through which all God's children will pass. The question is not whether one will be finally redeemed and enter the presence of God - enter "heaven." The question is how will one fare as one's life comes under the scrutiny of the Eternal God. The text speaks specifically about ministers of the Gospel and the building of the Church. I do not think we err, however, in seeing what here has a specific focus as being generally true of all persons regarding their life's issue whether that be in building churches or building houses or laboring in business or industry or living in community, nation, family. Will the things to which we devote our lives, our time, our energy stand God's refining process or will they go up in smoke? Notice: The one who builds with precious stones, gold and silver, will see his creation stand the test. He enters life beyond life with something good and positive going with him. The one who builds with wood, hay, straw - one who cuts corners and just gets by will see his life's devotion consumed before his eyes. But now note carefully: He will bear the loss but he himself will escape with his life, as one might from a fire. Such a person will enter life beyond life having lost everything, secure in God's eternal presence, yet with nothing to show for his life. © Grand Valley State University �Why I Believe in Purgatory Richard A. Rhem Page 5   From this text I conclude that there is beyond death or through death an encounter with God in which one's life will be tested. The issue will not be salvation or condemnation. The issue is whether we bring into God's presence something, or nothing. Now I am going beyond the text's specific teaching but drawing, I believe, a legitimate inference from the text: Through death, beyond death, at death, there is something more. Does this text not indicate that Paul thought in terms of encounter with God and perhaps continuing the process beyond death? If it is a matter simply of being saved or lost as we enter the moment of death - if there is a status called "Salvation" and a status called "Condemnation," and that is all there is, then why be concerned about what one brings to death's moment: a fruitful life, or a barren life? I see in our text Paul's conviction that there is not only the discontinuity between our time and God's eternity, death being the break, but also continuity between this life and the life beyond death's passage. We bring something (or nothing) with us and whatever lies beyond is influenced and determined by what we bring (or fail to bring.) Let us look at one more text: Luke 12:47-48. These verses are in a context of the teachings of Jesus. The immediate context is a call to be watchful and ready for the End - the coming of the Son of Man. Jesus is encouraging loyal, faithful stewardship of life. Happy that servant who is found at his task when his master comes! (Verse 43) But then Jesus speaks of two kinds of servants. One knew the master's instructions and failed to comply with them. The other did not comply either, but he was unaware of the demands. The first was flogged severely; the second was flogged less severely. This vivid, picturesque language of Jesus must not be pushed too far. We certainly could not build a whole system of judgment on the basis of these words. Yet, perhaps it is legitimate to draw at least this teaching: the sentence will vary in light of individual circumstances. Again, we have here not a judgment to eternal salvation or eternal condemnation; we have here a gradation of judgment on the basis of the individual life being examined. The moment of death, the moment of encounter with God will be very personal, individual and discriminating. The sentences will vary. Does this point to a process beyond death's moment? If this were the only text it would be risky to claim so. But again, this seems to point in the direction of Paul's teaching explained above. To be sure, the Luke passage speaks of a gradation of severity of judgment depending on knowledge or opportunity while the Pauline passage © Grand Valley State University �Why I Believe in Purgatory Richard A. Rhem Page 6   speaks of entering God's presence beyond the testing of judgment – with positive fruit of one's life, or denuded of whatever constituted one's life. Yet in both cases there is judgment in terms of one's life being put to the test and then the entering into the consequences of what that judgment revealed. The traditional understanding of our texts is that, in the case of the Luke passage, there are gradations of punishment - yet to be lost, eternally condemned is to remain in a state spoken of as hell - separation from God. In the case of the passage from Paul, the understanding has been that the "saved" enter into heaven, or union with God, but some with greater, some with less capacity to experience the joy of salvation. But let us push those conventional interpretations. Let me repeat what I said earlier: we cannot finally know answers which remain for us veiled in mystery. Yet it is important to come to some place where we can live with faith, conviction and peace. Think with me then; let your imagination loose. Think about the God of grace, His creation purpose, His covenant faithfulness, His final triumph over all. Think about the whole impact of the Scriptural revelation beyond individual texts. I entitled this message, "Why I Believe in Purgatory," because I did want to grasp your attention. Surely you know that in a day when Catholic theology itself is very self-critical and is engaged in serious encounter with Scripture, I am not about to suggest we reinstitute a teaching that has been a means of distortion of the Gospel and open to great abuse. We cannot forget that it was precisely at the point of the teaching of indulgences, the exploitation of the faithful for purposes of raising money and manipulating people, holding them in spiritual bondage, that the Reformers rose up in protest. But my title is more than a ploy. It expresses a conviction to which I have come through study and reflection, which is as much a surprise to me as it may be to you. I am convinced that, behind all indefensible practice and abuse of the Church, there is yet a true intuition. There has been over the centuries a sense that God was not through with us at the moment of our last breath. Now the traditional Reformed faith never said He was through with us; there remains the judgment with its double issue - to salvation or condemnation. But the traditional teaching has been that with the last breath the issue is irreversible. It is this claim that I am calling in question. I do recognize that the strong call to decision, the seriousness of choices in this life is stressed. I would not deny that or even downplay the urgency of that call. However, is it not possible that in the experience of death itself, understood as an encounter with God, there is the possibility of something of eternal significance occurring? I raise the question for reflection. Let me share with you some of the best thinking available on the subject. My first serious consideration of the idea of purgatory or the reality toward which that © Grand Valley State University �Why I Believe in Purgatory Richard A. Rhem Page 7   teaching points was in Berkhof’s Christian Faith. Because of my high regard for the thoroughness of his scholarship, depth of biblical and theological understanding, and deep personal faith in Christ, I had to take seriously his suggestion that there was really something here to be taken seriously. In his discussion of the judgment of the works done by believers, which we discussed above, Berkhof writes: In protestant theology, this viewpoint is almost completely pushed aside by the accent on grace. In Roman Catholic piety it is (or used to be) very prominent in connection with the veneration of saints and purgatory. The Roman Catholic Church assumes correctly that believers differ greatly in regard to their progress and fruitfulness... So the idea of a judgment according to one's deeds leads of itself to the consideration of a process of purification, called purgatory in Roman Catholic tradition. ... The Reformation broke with that doctrine because of its moralistic conception of salvation and its detrimental effect on the practice of piety (indulgences; intercessory prayers and masses for the dead.) It imagined a sudden, radical transformation after the judgment, usually without giving it further theological reflection and without connecting it with the struggle for sanctification on earth. Meanwhile Roman Catholic thinking, too, has become much more reserved. Typical of the modern R.C. conceptions is the idea of "ripening" ... which K. Rahner develops in "The Life of the Dead." Referring to our text, I Corinthians 3:15, Berkhof asserts, ... that statement does suggest that Paul thought of more than an abrupt re-creation of man; salvation is accompanied by a painful becoming aware of one's own failures on earth. The difficulties here are more an open question for theological reflection than a subject for back and forth theological denouncement. (p. 489) In the previous message I cited Berkhof s statement about the question of whether "Hell" was forever. He writes: God is serious about the responsibility of our decision, but he is even more serious about the responsibility of his love. The darkness of rejection and God's forsakenness cannot and may not be argued away, but no more can and may it be eternalized. For God's sake we hope that hell will be a form of purification. (p. 532) That word "purification" is one used by the Catholic theologian Hans Küng. It was Küng who stimulated me to pursue these matters. His forthright handling of them at the University of Michigan convinced me that these questions do not go away; they are deeply written on the human heart. In the published lectures © Grand Valley State University �Why I Believe in Purgatory Richard A. Rhem Page 8   Eternal Life? Küng treats the idea of purgatory in his discussion of the question whether hell is eternal. Some theologians argue that it is not God who damns man by a verdict imposed from outside. They are human beings themselves, by sins committed with inward freedom, who damn themselves. The responsibility lies not with God but with man, and by death this selfdamnation and distance from God (not a place, but a human condition) becomes definitive. Definitive? Do not the psalms say that God rules over the realm of the dead? What is supposed to become definitive here, contrary to the will of an all-merciful and almighty God? Why should God, who is infinitely good, want to perpetuate enmity instead of removing it and in practice to share his rule forever with some kind of anti-God? Why should he have nothing more to say at this point and consequently render forever impossible a purification, cleansing, liberation, enlightenment, of guilt-laden man? (p. 137) Then he refers specifically to purgatory. Purification, cleansing, liberation, enlightenment: Here perhaps may be I want merely to prompt a few reflections - the particle of truth, the real care, of the problematic idea of purgatory, which has been translated in German from the Middle Ages onward with the unfortunate designation of Fegefeuer ("winnowing fire") -This may be the true core, but it remains only if the idea is not reified. ... as no human being is entirely bad, neither is anyone entirely good. Any human being, even the best, falls short of what he might be, fails to meet his own demands and norms and thus never wholly realizes himself. For if he is to be fully himself, even the "saint" needs completion, not after death, but in death itself. And, in view of so much unpunished guilt in the world, a number of people wonder not entirely wrongly - if dying unto God, the absolutely final reality, can be one and the same for us: The same for criminals and their victims, for mass murderers and the mass of the murdered; for those who have struggled a whole life long to fulfill God's will, true helpers of their fellow human beings, and for those who for a whole life long have only carried out their own will and at the same time shut out others? ...how this ... purification, cleansing, follows is not left to the speculation or calculation of human curiosity but remains a matter for God as merciful judge, in God's all-embracing final act of grace. The key idea Küng would stress is the shattering effect of the encounter with God. We die not into nothingness; we die into God. Küng cites Karl Barth: Man as such therefore has no beyond. Nor does he need one, for God is his beyond. Man's beyond is that God is his Creator, Covenant-partner, Judge and Saviour, was and is and will be his true Counterpart in life, and finally © Grand Valley State University �Why I Believe in Purgatory Richard A. Rhem Page 9   and exclusively and totally in death. (Church Dogmatics Vol. Ill, 2, pp. 632-33) Küng also cites a Catholic theologian, Greshake: From this standpoint we can understand what was pointed out earlier, that God himself, the encounter with him, is purgatory. But this means that we need not fall back on a special place or still less on a special time or special event to grasp the meaning of purgatory. Still less do we need to work out crude ideas about the 'poor' souls. Instead we can understand what the Church teaches and has taught from the earliest times as an element in the encounter with God in death. ... we should avoid any talk of fire and speak instead of purifying and cleansing as an element of the encounter with God. At the same time what should be particularly clear is that purgatory is not - as it often seems to be in popular piety - a "demihell" which God has erected in order to punish the person who is not entirely bad, but also not entirely good. Purgatory is not a demihell but an element of the encounter with God: that is, the encounter of the unfinished person, still immature in his love, with the holy, infinite, loving God; an encounter which is profoundly humiliating, painful and therefore purifying. (Cited on p. 139) Küng concludes, That is to say that, since it is a question of dying into the dimensions of God, where space and time are dissolved into eternity, nothing can be discovered, either about place and time or about the character of this purifying, sanctifying consummation. (p.139) A Lutheran theologian, Hans Schwarz, discusses the views of Tadislaus Boros who suggests something similar, the significance of the final decision at the moment of death. ... decisively modifies the traditional concepts of purgatory and death. Boros agrees that the Church has only gradually developed the doctrine of purgatory. Though the Scriptural basis of purgatory may be obscure, the fact and the essential nature of purgatory are of such quality that it must be called a "truth of revelation." However, through his hypothesis of a final decision, Boros seems to view purgatory as the "point" of intersection between life and death. Purgatory is no longer conceived of as a process of purification which can be measured similar to the days and years we live here on earth. According to Boros, "purgatory would be the passage, which we effect in our final decision through the purifying fire of divine love. The encounter with Christ would be our purgatory. ... Boros replaces an untenable concept of purgatory with the idea of a confrontation with Christ in death. ... he calls death "man's first completely personal act;" and, "therefore, by reason of its very being, the place above all others for © Grand Valley State University �Why I Believe in Purgatory Richard A. Rhem Page10   the awakening of consciousness, for freedom, for the encounter with God, for the final decision about eternal destiny." (On The Way To The Future, pp. 142F) It has been obvious to me as I have pursued this subject that those who have reflected on the biblical material, the whole context of Scripture, the revelation of God as He has shown Himself in Jesus Christ and the human person are very restrained in their conclusions and very cautious in their statement. There is in all serious inquirers into this question a recognition of the serious nature of human decisions, an acknowledgement of the urgent need for repentance and faith, the reality of evil and human wickedness that demands response if there is any justice, the judgment as the exposure of our lives to the scrutiny of the God of truth. All serious biblical thinkers recognize that God takes us seriously and that our wrong and guilt are not simply soft-pedaled and our exposure to God's light and truth will be painful even while we are conscious of being embraced within a larger grace. Judgment will be experienced: No one will "get away" with anything. If an eternal hell is questioned, it is not because passing through God's final examination is not a serious matter and neither is it because there is no sense of the need for change and renewal of the person who through the earthly pilgrimage has become scarred and tainted and twisted. Recognizing that we cannot simply move from the ambiguity, partial insight, fickleness and unfaithfulness of one's human experience into the presence of the God of light and truth, there is the belief on the part of some that a purifying process will be necessary. What have we believed traditionally? Simply that God sees us in Jesus; his righteousness is our righteousness now and when we pass through death to life we will be made like him - instant perfection. What I am questioning in this message is the instant perfection. Certainly the question is not whether God is able in a moment to totally transform us. But does He ever work as far as we can trace His work in Creation apart from process? How often we wish He would work by a "snap of the finger;" but God takes time and allows the process to work. Further, we must recognize that we can only think in terms of time but when we speak of moving through "the moment of death," what do we mean? At that "moment" we move beyond "moments in succession" - we move into the dimension of Eternity. It is far beyond our purpose or capacity to enter into the discussion of time relative to eternity here, but we must not naively project our time-conditioned thinking beyond death. © Grand Valley State University �Why I Believe in Purgatory Richard A. Rhem Page11   C. S. Lewis has dealt as creatively and profoundly as anyone of whom I am aware with the question of heaven, hell and purgatory. He points to the relation of time and eternity in a fascinating imaginary discussion with the Christian writer, George MacDonald: 'In your own books, Sir,' said I, 'you were a Universalist. You talked as if all men would be saved. And St. Paul too.' 'Ye can know nothing of the end of all things, or nothing expressible in those terras. It may be, as the Lord said to the Lady Julian, that all will be well, and all will be well, and all manner of thing will be well. But it's ill talking of such questions.' ‘Because they are too terrible, Sir?’ 'No. Because all answers deceive. If ye put the question from within Time and are asking about possibilities, the answer is certain. The choice of ways is before you. Neither is closed. Any man may choose eternal death. Those who choose it will have it. But if ye are trying to leap on into eternity, if ye are trying to see the final state of all things as it will be (for so ye must speak) when there are no more possibilities left but only the Real, then ye ask what cannot be answered to mortal ears. Time is the very lens through which ye see - small and clear, as men see through the wrong end of a telescope - something that would otherwise be too big for ye to see at all. That thing is Freedom: the gift whereby ye most resemble your Maker and are yourselves parts of eternal reality. But ye can see it only through the lens of Time, in a little clear picture, through the inverted telescope. It is a picture of moments following one another and yourself in each moment making some choice that might have been otherwise. Neither the temporal succession nor the phantom of what ye might have chosen and didn't is itself Freedom. They are a lens. The picture is a symbol: but it's truer than any philosophical theorem (or, perhaps, than any mystic's vision) that claims to go behind it. For every attempt to see the shape of eternity except through the lens of Time destroys your knowledge of Freedom. Witness the doctrine of Predestination which shows (truly enough) that eternal reality is not waiting for a future in which to be real, but at the price of removing Freedom which is the deeper truth of the two. And wouldn't Universalism do the same? Ye cannot know eternal reality by a definition. Time itself, and all acts and events that fill Time, are the definition, and it must be lived. The Lord said we were gods. How long could ye bear to look (without Time's lens) on the greatness of your own soul and the eternal reality of her choice?' (The Great Divorce, p. 114 F.) In his imaginary conversation with MacDonald, Lewis is told that it is possible for people in hell to take holiday excursions to the boundaries of the heavenly country, Lewis exclaims, © Grand Valley State University �Why I Believe in Purgatory Richard A. Rhem Page12   'But I don't understand. Is" judgement not final? Is there really a way out of Hell into Heaven?' 'It depends on the way ye're using the words. If they leave that grey town behind it will not have been Hell. To any that leaves it, it is Purgatory. And perhaps ye had better not call this country Heaven. Not Deep Heaven, ye understand.' (Here he smiled at me). Ye can call it the Valley of the Shadow of Life. And yet to those who stay here it will have been Heaven from the first. And ye can call those sad streets in the town yonder the Valley of the Shadow of Death: but to those who remain there they will have been Hell even from the beginning.' I suppose he saw that I looked puzzled, for presently he spoke again. 'Son,' he said, 'ye cannot in your present state understand eternity: when Anodos looked through the door of the Timeless he brought no message back. But ye can get some likeness of it if ye say that both good and evil, when they are full grown, become retrospective. Not only this valley but all their earthly past will have been Heaven to those who are saved. Not only the twilight in that town, but all their life on earth too, will then be seen by the damned to have been Hell. That is what mortals misunderstand. They say of some temporal suffering, "No future bliss can make up for it," not knowing that Heaven, once attained, will work backwards and turn even that agony into a glory. And of some sinful pleasure they say "Let me but have this and I'll take the consequences": little dreaming how damnation will spread back and back into their past and contaminate the pleasure of the sin. Both processes begin even before death. The good man's past begins to change so that his forgiven sins and remembered sorrows take on the quality of Heaven; the bad man's past already conforms to his badness and is filled only with dreariness. And that is why, at the end of all things, when the sun rises here and the twilight turns to blackness down there, the Blessed will say "We have never lived anywhere except in Heaven", and the Lost, "we were always in Hell." And both will speak truly.' 'Is not that very hard, Sir?' 'I mean, that is the real sense of what they will say. In the actual language of the Lost, the words will be different, no doubt. One will say he has always served his country right or wrong; and another that he has sacrificed everything to his Art; and some that they've never been taken in, and some that, thank God, they've always looked after Number One, and nearly all, that, at least they've been true to themselves.' 'And the Saved?' © Grand Valley State University �Why I Believe in Purgatory Richard A. Rhem Page13   'Ah, the Saved ... what happens to them is best described as the opposite of a mirage. What seemed, when they entered it, to be the vale of misery turns out, when they look back, to have been a well; and where present experience saw only salt deserts, memory truthfully records that the pools were full of water.' 'Then those people are right who say that Heaven and Hell are only states of mind?' 'Hush,' said he sternly. 'Do not blaspheme. Hell is a state of mind - ye never said a truer word. And every state of mind, left to itself, every shutting up of the creature within the dungeon of its own mind - is, in the end, Hell. But Heaven is not a state of mind. Heaven is reality itself. All that is fully real is Heavenly. For all that can be shaken will be shaken and only the unshakable remains.' 'But there is a real choice after death? My Roman Catholic friends would be surprised, for to them souls in Purgatory are already saved. And my Protestant friends would like it no better, for they'd say that the tree lies as it falls.' "They're both right, maybe. Do not fash yourself with such questions. Ye cannot fully understand the relations of choice and Time till you are beyond both. And ye were not brought here to study such curiosities. What concerns you is the nature of the choice itself: and that ye can watch them making.' (The Great Divorce, pp. 61F.) Lewis' fertile imagination is thought provoking. Great caution is there; our curiosity will not be satisfied this side of death's portal. Yet it is clear that Hell, he seems to be saying, is porous. If one spends Eternity there or, conversely, if one never comes to the light, it will not be so much God's verdict as one's own fatal choice. Much lies veiled in mystery. Yet all that is needful is clear and how can it be more clearly set forth than simply, Now is the day of salvation; Now is the day to choose the things that matter, things of ultimate concern; now is the day to live faithfully - covenant with the Good and Gracious God. Then already we possess Eternal life and death will move us "from splendour to splendour 'til we see Him face to face." Amen. © Grand Valley State University �Why I Believe in Purgatory Richard A. Rhem Page14   References: Hendrikus Berkhof. Christian Faith: An Introduction to the Study of the Faith. Wm. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1979. Hans Küng. Eternal Life? Life After Death as a Medical, Philosophical and Theological Problem. Doubleday, 1984. C. S. Lewis. The Great Divorce. First published by HarperCollins, 1946. © Grand Valley State University � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Advent III Scripture Text I Corinthians 3:14-15, Luke 12:47-48 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI References Hendrikus Berkhof, Christian Faith, 1979 Hans K C. S. Lewis, The Great Divorce, 1946 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-19851215 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1985-12-15 Title A name given to the resource Why I Believe in Purgatory Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on December 15, 1985 entitled "Why I Believe in Purgatory", on the occasion of Advent III, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: I Corinthians 3:14-15, Luke 12:47-48. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives Advent Death Eternity Forgiveness God of Grace Judgment Nature of God Purgatory Salvation https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/84fc3432cd7d686c979dc969e11969e9.pdf b2788abe144731cd1a0d154ef2074586 PDF Text Text Why Is There So Much Anger in Religion? From the series: Tough Questions; No Easy Answers Scripture: Jonah 3, 4; James 1:17-27; Luke 15:25-32 Richard A. Rhem Christ Community Church Spring Lake, Michigan August 3, 1997 Transcription of the spoken sermon One of the fascinating aspects of preaching for me is the way questions, insights, and reflections that lead me to a sermon series that I create, sometimes lead me to deeper levels of reflection and to the analysis of a subject that I had not anticipated. Such is the case in this current series, "Tough Questions: No Easy Answers." On the surface, the tough questions are simply questions that arise as I reflect on the phenomenon of religious experience. But, I am finding myself with each successive question moving to a deeper level, thinking about religious experience itself or religion itself, its origins, its function in society, its potential for negativity leading to human bondage and oppression as well as its possibilities for human fulfillment and growth. Take the question raised in this message, "Why is there so much anger in religion?" That is an easily observable fact: anger seethes beneath the surface in the respective religions and in many religious folk. Once again this past week, terror struck in Jerusalem, bringing death and injury as suicide bombers blew themselves up in a crowded market, assured that such martyrdom would bring them immediately to paradise. In Brooklyn, a bombing plot was preempted by arrest before another tragedy was perpetuated. What is at work here is not simply religious fanaticism. Religion is often coopted by political opportunists, and cultural humiliation fuels terrorism. Nonetheless, religion is intertwined, often providing legitimation for such acts and, of course, rewards. In the three great Western religious traditions linked to the Bible, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, there are powerful fundamentalist movements that are marked by violent means justified by the ends in view - the establishment of the righteous empire and the destruction of those viewed as the enemy of true belief and practice. © Grand Valley State University   �Why So Much Anger in Religion? Richard A. Rhem Page 2   But, we need not go to the radical fringes of religious belief and practice to encounter anger which results in broken community, the erecting of barriers between people - even within families - and the exclusion of anyone who fails to pass whatever litmus test might be established for group identity. We see it all around us. Why? That is the question. Attempting to find an answer drives us once again to reflect on the phenomenon of religion itself. We typically think of religion as the mediator of meaning, of salvation or healing, of peace and comfort. Are we not taken aback when we realize religion is also a source of anger in its practitioners? We have become aware in this series of reflections that religion is a human creation arising out of the experience of death. The cosmic drama evolves to a point billions of years along where a creature we call human develops the capacity for consciousness, self-awareness and, thereby, the ability to "get out of his skin," to reflect back on himself, becoming aware that "all flesh is mortal." He will die. Those he values in his intimate circle will die. He develops with awareness the capacity to suffer; he encounters the tragic dimension of existence. He asks "Why? What does it mean?” In the wrestling with such ultimate existential questions with, we might say, life’s boundary situations, the human creature, human society, develops structures of meaning which become the means of coping with the mystery of life, of death, of tragedy, of joy. Existence is threatening; life is fragile; the human experience is perilous. Religion arises as a means of negotiating life’s passages. This was articulated powerfully in the 19th century, as we have seen, by the German philosopher/theologian, Ludwig Feuerbach, who was followed by Marx who sought resolution of history’s suffering by history’s transformation through class warfare; by Freud who saw religion as illusion and salvation by psychotherapy dissolving the power of the distortion within the unconscious and early childhood experience; by Nietzsche who proclaimed "God is dead" and who celebrated "the superman" and the will to power. Quite naturally, the religious world fought these thinkers who opened up the avenue of modern atheism and denied the truth of their claims. But, their claims made too much sense, had too much the ring of truth. The Church, to speak only of the Christian tradition, went into a defensive posture, simply denying the insight of the modern analysis of religion, failing to recognize that there was really only one issue that demanded denial if religion was to continue to be intelligently practiced; namely, that human religion had its source, not in the human creature, but in the Question placed in his experience from beyond, from his depths - that religions are human creations but created in response to an address from outside, beyond, the depths. Such a claim is grounded on the conviction that there is a Mystery, creative Source of all, that confronts, encounters, puts in question the human creature. © Grand Valley State University �Why So Much Anger in Religion? Richard A. Rhem Page 3   We might speak of it as simply the experience of God, of the Infinite One from whom all flows and to whom all returns. If we have such a conviction, then we can recognize the respective religions as the result of some founding vision which resulted in a teaching, a cultic practice, and a code of behavior. The teaching flows out of the particular vision or epiphany; the cultic practice directs the manner of worship and devotion; the code of behavior gives directions for living in a way congruent with the teaching, or conception of deity. Thus we have come to see Religion as a human creation, as response to an encounter with God performing a critical function: It provides Something to believe, A manner of worship, A way to live. Such a function is mediatory; Religion provides the means by which a person opens him or herself to the experience of the transcendent Mystery, the experience of God. Religious belief, devotion or practice is never an end in itself. It is rather the agency through which one comes into the presence of God that issues in the experience of love, of grace, of freedom. Religion functioning thus fulfills an extremely critical and positive purpose for the human creature for, as we have seen, there is a universal human yearning for some meaning in the face of life’s perplexity, some hope and comfort in the presence of human suffering and death. But, if this is the case, why is there so much anger in religion, or, why is so much anger present in religious communities? That is a tough question and I have no easy answer, but let’s think about it together. One of the most acute analyses of Religion of which I am aware is Charles Davis’ forward in his Temptations of Religion. Acknowledging the need of structures and institutions to bring some order to our human experience, Davis points to the fatal tendency of all such social structures and institutions to absolutize themselves, becoming ends in themselves rather than understanding themselves as merely means to a greater end - the experience of community or of the transcendent. Rather than understanding themselves as means to a greater end, as provisional, as relative, they become ends in themselves. They harden, grow rigid, inflexible; unable to allow new, more effective structures or institutions to replace them. In his own words, Davis claims, © Grand Valley State University �Why So Much Anger in Religion? Richard A. Rhem Page 4   I would stress the importance in human living of that consolidating function. Men cannot live without the imposition of some social, institutional order upon the flux of their experience. Nevertheless, all such orders and their components are relative. In themselves they cannot claim an absolute value or a universal necessity. To speak of a particular order as relative does not mean that it is the product of individual or group caprice. A good social order will be the result of creative intelligence and freedom, and designed both to increase the quality of human living and to release and foster the drive toward transcendence. But none of this makes the order with its prescriptions an unchanging absolute. This brings me to one of the most persistent and perhaps deadliest of the temptations of religion, the temptation I am calling the anger of morality. By this I mean the insistence upon an established pattern of behavior and thought for its own sake, so that it loses its mediatory quality and becomes a closed order as an end in itself. I call it anger, because psychologically the attitude I am describing would seem to be a hostile reaction that chokes love, a bitter rejection of what is free and does not conform, the sharp repulsion of anything that disturbs or threatens an enclosed self. Since the established pattern that may be angrily insisted upon is threefold, namely, ritual, ethical, and doctrinal, we find three similar forms of distortion. These are familiar to us as ritualism (in a pejorative sense), legalism, and dogmatism. All three manifest the same fundamental failing, that is, a restrictive insistence upon a particular institutional order, so that instead of facilitating the movement of men toward selftranscendence, it becomes a rigid framework that imprisons them. Here, however, I want to direct my attention to the working of this temptation in the area of moral values and conduct. Hence I have called it the anger of morality. But there should be no difficulty in applying my remarks to the other two areas. The anger of morality is more than the periodic inertia that defends an obsolete system and resists change. An underlying factor is the human fear of freedom, of love, and of self-transcendence. That fear can turn with hatred as well as anger upon those who manifest an openness one is afraid to allow oneself. It is the personal repression of self-transcendence that leads people to seize upon an institutional order as an instrument for suppressing the feared drive in others. Law and order becomes the cry of the repressed against the free. Rosemary Haughton, in her book Love, shows in some detail how the organization of human life so often suppresses love, a word she uses in the sense of the self-giving form of the drive for self-transcendence. In writing © Grand Valley State University �Why So Much Anger in Religion? Richard A. Rhem Page 5   of child-rearing, which after all is the process of socialization and thus shows the working of the social order, she says: "In fact the study of child care, both in the past and present, is largely a study of the restriction or suppression of love." Men fear the openness, the self-transcendence, the self-giving of love, and this fear often cripples the mediatory function of their institutions and of the code of behavior these demand. The anger of morality is a temptation for every social order and institution, even those making no explicit appeal to religion. It appears as the failure to recognize the inadequacy of any particular institutional order in relation to reality and human experience as a whole. Man is taken as made for the law, instead of the law as being made for man. Any movement that cannot be contained within the established order is feared and suppressed. But distinctively religious institutions are subject to more virulent forms of the temptation. Because of their direct concern with the transcendent absolute, when they turn in upon themselves, lose their openness and mediatory capacity and become closed institutions, they fall into a selfidolatry and claim an absolute value for themselves. They do so in effect if not in words. The consolidating function of the religious system in sustaining a stable, meaningful order is no longer complemented by its function of promoting the human drive beyond every limited order to reality and truth as transcendent. Why? Because the religious system cannot bear to be itself surpassed and relativized. Hence the order ceases to mediate and becomes so much dead weight. Temptations of Religion, Charles Davis, p. 79F. Charles Davis points out how religion in its respective forms claims finality, absoluteness. The institutional leadership makes the claim and shapes the mind set of the people forming in them a sense of the ultimacy of the respective religious traditions in their doctrine, their forms of worship and their moral code. Institutional strength and solidarity is sought by claiming absolute truth and absolute practice in devotion and life. Conformity to belief and practice is not left to persuasion and freely offered response; means of enforcement are developed and, where the system is challenged or appears vulnerable, coercion is applied. A movement that begins in spiritual explosion resulting from fresh vision and is marked by confidence, freedom, and joy moves toward normality and then sterility, and at each stage the demand for conformity increases and coercion comes into play. That’s a view from the institutional perspective. But, why do so many passively conform for so long? In other words, why do people put up with institutional coercion? © Grand Valley State University �Why So Much Anger in Religion? Richard A. Rhem Page 6   Is it because we prefer order and predictability in our lives that are chaotic enough without too much freedom and openness in our lives? I think this is particularly true in the area of our concern - in our religious experience. I think it is safe to say that in no other area of life has the human creature been so passive, so conforming as in religious belief and practice. The institutional leadership has cultivated in the people an unthinking passivity and the people have traded a vital personal faith perspective for the ease and comfort of certainty. The problem is, of course, that such absolute certainty is a false certainty, for it is the very essence of human historical existence that absolute truth and absolute certainty are denied us. There is no possibility of anything more than a relative apprehension, always provisional, always tentative, always open to revision, of the Absolute, of the transcendent Mystery. But, that is not what we have been told. Rather, the respective religious traditions - some at least and ours certainly - have claimed absoluteness and played to the human lust for certitude. In these messages I have been repeating again and again my understanding of religion as a human construction. It is response to genuine encounter, but the response is a human creation, which means precisely that it is not to be identified with absoluteness that is to turn it into idolatry. Someone sent me a copy of an article that appeared recently in a hyper-Calvinist publication showing that my "heresy" stems from my failure to take the Bible, in the words of the Belgic Confession, as being "most perfect and complete in all respects." The author went on to claim "that the Bible is the infallible and complete written record of God’s revelation in Christ to His people." The article was appropriately entitled "God’s Way ... Or No Way." There was not enough selfawareness or humility to acknowledge that "God’s Way" is not the same as our limited human groping after truth that will always fall short in our attempts to reduce it to our little systems. Karen Armstrong’s in-depth study of 4000 years of the history of God provides a much broader perspective. She recognizes the creative role of human imagination in the forming of images of God, symbolic language that points beyond itself to the Mystery. And she views the present time as a time of transition when old metaphors have lost their power and new symbols are trying to emerge. She pointed to the English poet John Keats who spoke of the poet’s waiting in the darkness for the poem to write itself. This capacity to wait while the image was forming he called "negative capability ... [being] capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts without any irritable reaching after fact and reason." © Grand Valley State University �Why So Much Anger in Religion? Richard A. Rhem Page 7   According to Karen Armstrong, that is where we are in the present cultural milieu - waiting, but not anxious, as though we had to protect God or preserve a religious system. Newness will emerge; in the meantime, we trust. I was delighted to find in Kathleen Norris’ recent book, The Cloister Walk, a chapter entitled "Exile, Homeland, and Negative Capability." The citation above about negative capability was at the head of the chapter. In this chapter, she speaks of going into elementary classrooms to read poetry and to stimulate the children to write. Interestingly, she noted that the good students did not generally do well with this endeavor in creative writing, but often the traditionally poorer students who did not function well in the ordered disciplines showed great creativity and entered more happily into the exercise. Norris writes, Metaphor has been so degraded in our culture that it may be difficult for people to conceive of worship as a "metaphoric exchange." But as a poet, I am willing to explore the implications. How would it change our understanding of worship if, from the time they were small, children were taught to value and explore the possibilities of Keat’s "negative capability" in themselves? They might better understand faith as a process and church tradition as not only relevant but strikingly alive. It is worship, she contends, that gives rise to theological reflection, and not the other way around, and if this is understood, then on the analogy of writing a poem, we would see "that one might grow into faith much as one writes a poem. It takes time, patience, discipline, a listening heart. There is precious little certainty, and often great struggling, but also joy in our discoveries." Again, analogous to birthing a poem, one must not settle for a false certitude but embrace ambiguity and mystery. If the Church had had more of such an understanding - God as mystery, the ambiguity of human experience, the struggle for insight, the walls of faith as a process, the people would have been shaped with a different mind and heart, would have developed patience in the quest for God and compassion with their fellow pilgrims on journey to the Holy City. Instead, the religious institutions have been marked by arrogant claims to absoluteness, oppressive methods of requiring conformity, coercive means to eliminate spontaneity and freedom, and, consequently ,utterly failed to create space for the freedom of the Spirit’s brooding ministry. Pressure to conform, coercion used against the one who fails to comply - all of this creates rather a spirit of fear, suspicion, and anger. Within the biblical witness there are protests against the angry spirit that battles against an inclusive and compassionate spirit. © Grand Valley State University �Why So Much Anger in Religion? Richard A. Rhem Page 8   In the Hebrew scriptures, Jonah is the classic text condemning a narrow exclusionary spirit and calling for compassion. The story is in the form of parable - Jonah is called by God to go to the great ancient city of Nineveh, a center of wickedness, according to the story. Jonah is to preach repentance lest God visit the city with judgment. Jonah wants nothing of such an assignment. He cares not whether Nineveh is scorched; in fact, he would rather have it that way. Should he preach and bring repentance, he senses God would spare them and, in all honesty, he would rather they be damned. So he boards a boat sailing on the opposite direction. Well, you know the story; a storm arises. The ancient thinking said God must be angry because of someone on board. Jonah acknowledges it is he; he is fleeing God’s command. So, overboard he goes; the storm ceases; the boat and crew are safe. But, what of Jonah? A watery grave? No. He is swallowed by a great fish and survives being there for three days and three nights after which the fish spews Jonah on to dry land: Nineveh after all. He goes. He preaches God’s word. Nineveh heeds, repents, and is spared. Ah, just as he thought - God’s compassion will spare this alien people when everything in Jonah was saying - "God, damn them!" God changed his mind about the calamity that he had said he would bring upon them; and he did not do it. Can you celebrate that, Jonah? Your preaching made a difference. The people are turning to God and God is full of mercy. No, not so. We read, rather, "But this was very displeasing to Jonah, and he became angry." He badgers the Lord. See! This is just what I expected! That’s why I fled to Tarshish in the first place because, "I knew that you are a gracious God and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love ..." Jonah was so depressed by the wideness of God’s mercy that he wanted to die. But, God is not done with this prophet for this story is not about Nineveh, but about Jonah and the spirit Jonah represented - a narrow exclusionary spirit that resented the mercy of God flowing beyond the narrow limits of Israel. So, God queries, "Is it right for you to be angry?" No answer. Jonah heads for the hills to watch the drama unfold. He sat under a leafy booth he made to protect him from the burning sun. Waiting in the shade, there grew © Grand Valley State University �Why So Much Anger in Religion? Richard A. Rhem Page 9   above him a marvelous bush that provided even better cover. Jonah was pleased very comfortable. But, the next day the Lord sent a worm that killed the bush as quickly as it had grown. And, you guessed it - Jonah was angry. Once again, he wanted to die. Now it was time for the lesson - God asks, "Is it right for you to be angry about the bush?" Yes! But, Jonah, you didn’t have anything to do with the growth or development of the bush, which was here today and gone tomorrow; yet you grieve its loss. How should I feel about this great city of Nineveh - all the people and the animals? The parable makes its point - about as poignantly as the one Jesus told of a father with two sons - I need not rehearse the parable - only to say that when the prodigal returns from his fling in the far country, he is received graciously by the Father who throws a party. The elder brother reflects precisely the bitter spirit we just saw in Jonah. Jesus says, " ... he became angry and refused to go in." Think about it: Jonah, a parable in the Hebrew scripture that reveals the ugliness of an exclusive spirit that really does not want God’s mercy to be experienced by all, that is really angry that others who are different - in race, culture, ethnicity, creedal commitment or whatever are also loved by God. The parable Jesus told exposing the naked face of resentment that God’s grace is not a matter of performance, of merit, but offered to any open to receive it. What is operative here? Is it not perhaps a religion of obligation grudgingly practiced for fear that failing to do so would hold negative consequences now and eternally? Anger is seen to arise when the absolute certainty of one’s creed and practice is relativized; Anger is present when one views his religious obligation as an onerous task which he resents - and then sees some other one invited to the party while never having "put in his time." Lust for certitude that is not possible. Resentment at a grace that is offered apart from performance. There may be more operative in the anger present in much religion but these two causes are quite obviously major factors. What a pity. How many good people, sincere and well meaning, have not been crippled by an angry spirit because they were never told honestly that their religious system is relatively effective, not the one and only absolute way. They’ve been told their beliefs and practices "fall out of heaven" unmediated by human imagination and construction. © Grand Valley State University �Why So Much Anger in Religion? Richard A. Rhem Page10   Further, they have never been allowed a glimpse of the wideness of God’s mercy that will never be denied, never exposed to a grace irresistible that will never give up on the human family, all of whom are sisters and brothers because all the children of the God Who is Mystery, Who is Love. References: Charles Davis. Temptations of Religion. Harper & Row, 1974. © Grand Valley State University � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b1ee50b60fb460ecfd496ca1911745fb.mp3 068a35a3e159c8753aa3a3b794c650c9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Pentecost XI Series Tough Questions: No Easy Answers Scripture Text Jonah 3,4, James 1:17-27, Luke 15:25-32 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI References Charles Davis, Temptations of Religions, 1974 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-19970803 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1997-08-03 Title A name given to the resource Why Is There So Much Anger in Religion? Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on August 3, 1997 entitled "Why Is There So Much Anger in Religion?", as part of the series "Tough Questions: No Easy Answers", on the occasion of Pentecost XI, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: Jonah 3,4, James 1:17-27, Luke 15:25-32. Inclusive Meaning Nature of Religion Transforming Love https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/47e6ae2c20ca34cf080584196c67767b.mp3 25f720bd19561ce794f3db7627d64aa3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Midweek Lent Scripture Text II Corinthians 4:1-6, John 1:1-5, 14-18, 14:8-9 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-20030402 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2003-04-02 Title A name given to the resource Why Jesus in a World of Religion Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on April 2, 2003 entitled "Why Jesus in a World of Religion", on the occasion of Midweek Lent, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: II Corinthians 4:1-6, John 1:1-5, 14-18, 14:8-9. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4e45c9d6cf729d16a94f74af77b517d3.mp3 570a3740a4ca052156a500a0d1e57219 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ee5f744a69a6ec13217c7e1b4c9a68e3.pdf 18c0328ed1ab9b89b32528e38cef1602 PDF Text Text Why Jesus? From the series: A Fresh Look at an Ancient Story Text: II Corinthians 4:6; John 1:15 Richard A. Rhem Christ Community Church Spring Lake, Michigan March 25, 2001 Transcription of the spoken sermon My exposure to people of other faiths is minimal. Of those I have had, the relationships with the Jewish community have been the most meaningful, and I have been enriched through the work of the West Shore Committee for JewishChristian Dialogue. I have found Rabbi Alpert in Muskegon a princely man; Rabbi David Hartman from Jerusalem, who has been with us several times, so intoxicated with God, so full of the Spirit; Rabbi Yitz Greenberg, again a gentle scholar, devout and genuine. I have known fewer Muslim folk, but there, too, far from the TV image of the Islamic terrorists, I found sincerity and a deep hunger for God. I’ve never really known Buddhists, but in our world today you can’t help but be exposed to that in the media or through reading—a wonderful transformation of the human being through the path of dying to self and living in another consciousness. Those experiences with people of other faiths have been enriching to me in recent years, whereas once they would have been very threatening. I was already open for them, I suppose, through the recognition of that universality of God’s grace, and I was beginning to see how God revealed God’s self and offered grace, not only through my own religious tradition, but through other traditions that were authentic ways and experiences of God. In 1990 I sat in the magnificent cathedral in Chartres, outside of Paris. There was an Englishman who had lived there for many, many years and gave lectures. Malcolm Miller was his name, and he knew every nook and cranny, every stone. He pointed out something that I had not been aware of before, that the cathedral once was like the community library. People didn’t read; they didn’t have the printed page. But those stained glass windows told stories, and they became the means of teaching through which people learned and were moved by the biblical story. You can go through the cathedral and follow the biblical story from Creation to Consummation in stained glass. © Grand Valley State University   �Why Jesus? Richard A. Rhem Page 2   As I sat in the Chartres cathedral, I could not help notice how the stained glass windows were diverse in the stories they told. And as I thought about it, I came to realize a parable of sorts. Suppose you came to church every Sunday and picked the same pew. You would only see one set of windows and only part of the story. So perhaps this cathedral is a parable of the respective religious traditions. What if the Christians were gathered in the nave, and they saw the light streaming through the windows there, while the Muslims were in the transept and looked at another set of windows. The Jewish people in the choir would be looking through that magnificent rose window, and the Buddhists off in the other transept would see something else. You get the picture. It struck me that what made all of the windows luminous with teaching and meaning was a common source of light. Such a simple idea! But for me it was a parable, and it became a means by which I could move easily into that pluralism in which I live and move and have my being; that pluralism that recognizes in the great religious traditions of the world, the one eternal God manifest in light and conveying grace. For me this idea was so liberating, so freeing. Of course, I’ve met a lot of other people for whom this is a very threatening idea. If their truth is not the only truth, somehow or another their truth is diminished. I don’t understand that. For me it was the most liberating idea, because I could look at the other, the one who is different from me, and not see them as alien, not see them as a candidate for conversion or worse, a child of hell. I could see a fellow pilgrim, someone whose own pilgrimage could enrich mine through the nuances of that spirituality, and I, as well, might be able to be a means of grace to another. For me it was a liberating idea. But if that is indeed the case, and I do believe it is, then the question this morning is, “Why Jesus?” Why all the fuss about Jesus? Why do I want Jesus to walk with me? Why, in this Lenten season, do we rehearse again the stories of the passion as we move toward Holy Week? Why Jesus? Why in our prayers and our hymns and our liturgies, why is there such a concentration on Jesus? Why Jesus? Well, let me suggest why Jesus this morning. The apostle Paul in his Letter to the Corinthians, that second letter, makes a beautiful, concise statement, for he says: “We preach not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord and ourselves as your servants, for Jesus’ sake, for the God who said let light shine out of darkness.” In other words, the Creator God has shined in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. Why Jesus? Because we believe God is revealed there. We have seen, as I like to say, in the face of Jesus into the heart of God. Jesus is the embodiment of God. What we see there is reflective of the nature of God. So why Jesus? Because that Mystery that is God must somehow or other come into sharp focus for us, must come into some tangibility, and Paul says that to look into the face of Jesus is to get a clue as to the heart of God. © Grand Valley State University �Why Jesus? Richard A. Rhem Page 3   John, I think even more profoundly in the first chapter of his Gospel, says much the same thing. Paul was the first to write in the fifteen or twenty years or so after Jesus, but John wrote near the end of the century. The Gospel of John is a more philosophical, more thoughtful portrait of Jesus, because Jesus didn’t come, you know. The kingdom didn’t come, the heavens weren’t opened, everything didn’t come to consummation. The preaching of John the Baptist was not realized, and that apocalyptic hope seemed to come to nothing. And so, if it didn’t happen the way they were anticipating it would happen, what did this Jesus encounter mean, after all? I love the way John’s Gospel has it. “In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. And the word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only son of the father.” Oh, the law came through Moses, to be sure, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. There was, in other words, as Paul said, an unveiling, a revealing. But even more, there was that embodiment, there was that flesh; the Mystery took on human form and dimension. John says that which was in the beginning took human shape before our eyes. I like the translation of that first verse, “In the beginning was the divine intention.” The Greek word can bear that meaning. In the beginning was the divine intention, and that divine intention eventuated in a human being, so that the profound revelation of God is seen in the human. John, the writer of that Gospel, was operating with his own cosmology, but what he said translates so beautifully into what we know about our universe: fifteen billion years ago a Big Bang; a cooling of the elements; the planetary system; the emergence of life; eventually conscious life; and a self-conscious human being. Then 2000 years ago there came a human being that made people say, “That’s it! There it is. That’s a clue to what God is. That is an indication of what we are called to be.” John’s testimony was that divine intention from the beginning. Whether for John that was 4,000 years prior, whether for him there was the three-decker universe with heaven above and hell below, it doesn’t matter. His cosmology was incidental. What he was saying is that in the beginning there was an intention, an intention that unfolded, a dramatic cosmic story that eventuated in the human and in a human, Jesus. For John that was the realization, the manifestation, the human statement of the divine intention. The scientists in our day love to discuss and argue whether or not the universe was made for humankind. There are those who describe the anthropic principle which says that all of the fine balances, all of the things that have happened over these fifteen billion years eventuated in just the right setting, environment, © Grand Valley State University �Why Jesus? Richard A. Rhem Page 4   possibility toward life and for human life. And there are others who say it was willy-nilly, just an accident. Well, you can make your choice; pay your money and make your choice. It doesn’t matter, really, because here we are and we are looking to Jesus as the highest and the best, the realization of the intention of God. But I like to think of that divine intention being pervaded throughout by that serendipitous creativity of the Creator God. I like to think that all of the emerging, evolving biological, historical development, all of that, is the consequence of the lure of love, the Spirit that knows no coercion, but only persuasion, that beckons this process on to the point at which there was a human being. And in the midst of humanity there was a certain Jesus and they said, “My God, that’s it!” This understanding of Jesus is different than the understanding with which I began my life and my ministry. For me, Jesus in the tradition was that one who was with God in the life of the Trinity, who as the second person of the Trinity, came from outside and assumed our human nature, died for our sin, was resurrected and left again. He was a divine intruder, if you will, one who came as the gift of God to be the sin-bearer of the world in order that there might be forgiveness and reconciliation. That’s not how I understand Jesus, obviously, in what I have been saying to you this morning. I understand Jesus not as one who has come from the outside, from another realm. I understand Jesus as one who emerged in the process through the Creator Spirit, who became the embodiment of the divine intention, and whose life is the clue to God’s purpose and meaning for human life as a whole. How do I make that shift? Certainly that old conception comes from the New Testament, there’s no question about that. How do I make that shift from an outsider divine coming in, bearing our sin and moving out again? I make it by understanding Jesus in the historical context in which he lived. This is where all of the historical Jesus research is so fruitful, because it shows us a concrete human being in his historical, social, political, and economic context. It shows us a human being who responded to his context, one who looked at the society of his day and saw the exploitation of imperial Rome and the collaboration of his own leadership of his people. Jesus saw the destitution, the hurt, the pain, the poverty, the despair, the powerlessness, and the voicelessness of the multitudes. He looked at them and saw them as sheep without a shepherd, harassed and tossed about. And somehow or other Jesus was able to communicate to them their dignity as the children of God, to remind them of the covenant of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. Jesus was able to call forth their humanity once again. Jesus also saw the power structures, the power brokers of his day. It was clear to him how the people were being used and abused, how the leaders kept forgetting that they were the servants of the people, not the masters of the people, not the © Grand Valley State University �Why Jesus? Richard A. Rhem Page 5   exploiters of the people. Jesus spoke truth to power. He went to the very center of the nation; the Temple of Jerusalem, and brought his word, his good news about another kingdom, an alternative way of being, and they killed him violently. And there, in that life, in that one, I see the realization of God’s intention. A couple of weeks ago I raised the question, “What’s wrong with us?” What’s wrong with us? We live by animal instincts, that old survival instinct that we took with us from the jungle. And I then asked, “Do we need God to be good?” Can’t we see it? Can’t we understand how we destroy ourselves, destroy our planet, destroy society? Can’t we see it? We’re responsible, we have knowledge, we have relative freedom. Do we need God as some threat beyond us, some lawgiver from beyond? Don’t we see it in our own lives and in our society and our day? What’s wrong with us? It is that we are not like Jesus? And what I see in Jesus is the only hope for the transformation of the world. Am I a dreamer? Of course, I’m a dreamer. What do I see in Jesus? I see peaceful non-resistance. I see righteousness incarnate. I see the truth spoken with integrity. I see self-sacrifice. I see a willingness to stand in one’s truth, even at the cost of death. I see one (and here I believe he is the incarnation of God) who meets evil with forgiveness and with grace. I see one who meets hatred with love. “Love your enemies,” he said. I see one who gives us an impossible ethic in the Sermon on the Mount, concluding in Luke’s version: “Be ye therefore compassionate as your father in heaven is compassionate.” I see Jesus. Why Jesus? Because Jesus is the way and the truth and the life. No one will come to the experience of communion in the father’s bosom without that spirit of © Grand Valley State University �Why Jesus? Richard A. Rhem Page 6   Jesus, that grace of Jesus, that truth of Jesus, that integrity of Jesus, that fearlessness of Jesus, that freedom of Jesus, that magnificence of Jesus. It was April 15, 1984, Palm Sunday in this place. The title of the sermon was, “Jesus, You Are Really Somebody.” I had come through my own torturous journey to see Jesus in all of his humanity rather than that second person of the Trinity, that divine savior, that one who came, as the true God, the true man, two natures with all of that Christological structure. I had begun to see Jesus in all of his humanity and I was so impressed. It struck me that all along I really had seen a Dietrich Bonhoeffer, for example, as far more impressive than Jesus. Dietrich Bonhoeffer moved me. The story of his martyrdom moved me. Why didn’t Jesus move me? Because Jesus was from the outside; Jesus lacked full humanity. Then, when I began to see Jesus in his humanity, I had to say, “Jesus, you are really somebody!” I had to begin to translate all of the symbolism, because all of our prayers and liturgical forms, our hymns, our anthems are full of the Jesus in that other conceptuality. I still must do that. I understand it as poetry, but when I survey the wondrous cross on which the prince of glory died, I see there a place of violence, where one who died gave expression to the divine intention from all eternity. I want Jesus to walk with me. And when I see that cross and contemplate that life, then I know that such love, such strength, such grandeur of person reflective of the heart of the eternal God demands my soul, my life, my all. It’s the only hope we have. Lord, I want to be like Jesus. © Grand Valley State University � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Lent VI Series A Fresh Look At an Ancient Story Scripture Text II Corinthians 4:6, John 1:15 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-20010325 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2001-03-25 Title A name given to the resource Why Jesus? Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on March 25, 2001 entitled "Why Jesus?", as part of the series "A Fresh Look At an Ancient Story", on the occasion of Lent VI, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: II Corinthians 4:6, John 1:15. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives Divine Intention Inclusiveness Way of Jesus https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a93567604cf8180e0b68fe3c2695ed1e.mp3 ac037abc0ad3a83ad6db7409d9e354c2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Pentecost XIX Series The First Testament Scripture Text Genesis 17:18 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-19941002 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1994-10-02 Title A name given to the resource Why No Ishmael? - Election: Exclusive or Inclusive? Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on October 2, 1994 entitled "Why No Ishmael? - Election: Exclusive or Inclusive?", as part of the series "The First Testament", on the occasion of Pentecost XIX, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: Genesis 17:18. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives Covenant History of Israel Inclusive Pluralism https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4727bf0cd86af0cce8708465f9b92bf6.jpg 91baee061eaecfcc8cee848bfd10914d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Naval Recognition Training Slides Subject The topic of the resource Slides Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition Warships--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Description An account of the resource Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1943-1953 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50_756 Title A name given to the resource Wichita, heavy cruiser Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Description An account of the resource Wichita, US CA (heavy cruiser), October 1, 1947. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Navy World War, 1939-1945 Military education Warships--Recognition Slides Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Naval recognition slides (RHC-50) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1947-10-01 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a159364fb5b983ac8ab01d63218390e6.jpg 7e4e3055c57cb60e3b9ba39f6c3abdae Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Naval Recognition Training Slides Subject The topic of the resource Slides Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition Warships--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Description An account of the resource Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1943-1953 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50_757 Title A name given to the resource Wichita, heavy cruiser Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Description An account of the resource Wichita, US CA (heavy cruiser), October 1, 1947. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Navy World War, 1939-1945 Military education Warships--Recognition Slides Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Naval recognition slides (RHC-50) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1947-10-01 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/449c9cb62ea1d65ab952ae6203820037.pdf aa1e6caf9fb4989866090f10ded2bdf3 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mr. John Widdicombe Interviewed on January 5, 1975 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #45 (40:42) Biographical Information John S. Widdicombe was born about 1907 in Grand Rapids. His death occurred in Keene, New Hampshire in late May 1989. A memorial service was held in Grand Rapids on 1 June 1989. John was the son of Harry Theodore Widdicombe and Gertrude Emily Sherwood. Harry was born 3 August 1876 in Grand Rapids and died 29 March 1957 at Blodgett Hospital. He was the son of John Widdicombe and Mary Frances Stocking. Harry married Gertrude Emily Sherwood on 14 March 1906 in Grand Rapids. Gertrude was born about 1882 and was the daughter of Alfred Harry Sherwood and Emily A. Jeffries (or Jeffrey). Gertrude passed away 20 May 1975 in Grand Rapids. Both Gertrude and John S. Widdicombe are buried at Oak Hill Cemetery. ____________ Interviewer: This is a recording of an interview with Mr. John Widdicombe, who is visiting his native city from New York where he presently lives part of the year. This is recorded at my home, the Hutchins residence at one-eleven Lafayette north-east, in the afternoon of Sunday, January the fifth, nineteen seventy-five. Now I’m going to ask Mr. Widdicombe to talk about his family, which has played an important part in the history of this city, for I believe well over a hundred years. John: Well my great-grandfather George with three sons, his brother, and his brother’s wife and they came, it was about eighteen forty-four, and they settled first in Syracuse, New York. And just why one brother came to Grand Rapids and the other stayed in Syracuse, I don’t know. After they had settled in Syracuse my grandfather, the youngest of the four sons was born there. The other three were born in England. William, the eldest, Harry, George (I’m not sure if that’s the right order of Harry and George) and John. All four boys served in the Civil War, and George died shortly after, of some, not a wound, but some disablement that he suffered during the war. My great-grandfather, the original George was a cabinet-maker from Exeter in England. Almost as soon as they got here they began to work in furniture and there were many permutations, George Widdicombe, and Son, and Widdicombe Brothers, and Widdicombe and Richard, the Grand Rapids Mantel Company, this is over the course of many years. And finally they started the Widdicombe Furniture Company that died recently. The elder brother, William was �2 apparently rather bossy and my grandfather the youngest got tired of the relationship; sold his stock in the Widdicombe Furniture Company and started the John Widdicombe Company. Interviewer: About what year was that? John: I’m not sure, I can find out. I supposed it must have been in the eighties somewhere in the eighties. And of course in nineteen twelve, I think it was eleven or twelve he dropped dead over his desk, and at that time was starting work, starting to build what would have been if he finished it, the largest furniture company in the world. But of course when he died all the plans went by the board. William Widdicombe married Esther Hewitt, and Harry Widdicombe married a sister who was known as Auntie Rye, what her real name was I don’t know. And William had six children, only one of whom had any offspring, Abbott, who married Leona Wurzburg. And they had four children, two girls and two boys. He died of pneumonia, when Abbott his son, the youngest son was unborn. Harry Widdicombe, not my father, but his uncle after whom he was named, married Auntie Rye Hewitt and his son was Ralph the furniture designer. My grandfather married Mary Stocking and her father was Billius Stocking, who was one of the real pioneers. He came here I think in eighteen thirty-four or five and took a quarter, took up a homestead I think you call it on the West side, a quarter section. And built his, originally I think it was a log cabin. And later of course the New England clapboard house that was still there when I was a boy. Stocking had at least three children, Theodore who died in his twenties, and was quite an artist, or somewhat of an artist, and another daughter Alida who was a spinster, and who died at an advanced age I can’t remember how old she was, never having married. And she of course, lived on the West side and she must have had two acres. She had her own house, she had a tenant farmer house, and she had a corn field and potato patch and a cow and so on, and in the twenties the early twenties the city wanted this ideal property for a whole school complex and they got it by condemning the property, it was several years of fight to keep it but in the end they lost. Interviewer: Do you know anything about Billius Stocking apart from your relationship to him or what did he do? John: He was extremely pious that I do know. Terribly pious, he was, my grandfather had four children, one who died as they did in those day died young, I don’t know what name it had, Mary, Alida, and Harry my father, Harry Theodore. Named for his uncle, the Theodore Stocking that died young. . And Mary Widdicombe went to Paris in the nineties where she ran a pensione (hotel) along with Mrs. Thayer, who she’d known as her teacher of French in school somewhere, she went where a lots of Grand Rapids people went, where Mrs. Douglas went. �3 Interviewer: When she went over to Paris in the nineties how old would she have been? John: In her early twenties. Interviewer: In her early twenties? What about eighteen seventy perhaps? John: Something, not before that, it must have been before that because she was at least mother’s age. Interviewer: When was your father born, what year? John: Eighteen seventy-five I think. Interviewer: He was the youngest? John: He was the youngest. Interviewer: She was born perhaps… John: Eighteen eighty. So it must have been before that, it must have before it must have been in the eighties or nineties maybe she was a bit older than I said. Anyhow they went to Paris to perfect their French, and had the idea of starting a pensione for Americans, immediately, Americans from Grand Rapids well they were their first guest. And eventually lots of other people, and she married a Mr. Lee, Mr. James Lee and they were divorced and she went to London and bought the Dysart Hotel which covers a whole block, if it’s still there. And in a course of her years in London one of the people who lived in there was Geraldine Farrar, when she was in London she always stayed at the Dysart. And in those days she married John Joass, and I found something interesting, I’ve seen the name Joass once, another time in Scotland and I know that J-O-A-S is a Norwegian name. Interviewer: So there’s a possibility that… John: They came across, they were originally Norwegians. He didn’t like his wife running a hotel so she had to give up the Dysart and she lived in England until they separated, not divorced, and she came back here to live and died in nineteen forty-two. Alida married someone called Crane, I’ve forgotten his first name, and that was a very short lived marriage, and subsequently married Douglas Ray. And my father married Gertrude Sherwood, whose father has invented that process of translating fine grain mahogany on pine. And his company was the Grand Rapids Panel Company. My parents had two children, myself the eldest, and my sister �4 Emily, who married David Schmidt. I found an interesting thing; do you remember the Jacksons, here who was Jackson at St. Marks? Interviewer: St. Marks. I never knew them but yes I remember them. John: There was Nancy Jackson, that was a member of that family, I think Nancy’s younger sister who is wife of the rector of Grace Church in New York and she’d been looking through the files and said I found a Widdicombe who is married in Grace Church, and I discovered that was when she married Crane, it was Alida. Interviewer: Why don’t we go back to your grandfather, John Widdicombe, and tell me a little bit about what you were saying about the house, which stood in, on the site of the present John Widdicombe Furniture Company. John: No, not on the site but in the El and open space that is still open. Interviewer: What time do you suppose that house was built? John: I don’t know. It must have been there, I think it was certainly there in the eighties, and I suppose perhaps he lived there, because of course, the Widdicombe Furniture Company was across the tracks. And he chose that spot to build his own factory. So that when the guess that he was perhaps already living there. Then as he prospered he came across the river as everybody did finally, who lived on the West side, and bought what had been the Wood house, which is the second house from College on the north side of Fulton Street, going west. I think that would have been after eighteen ninety-three, and this was the time when father and his sisters, my aunt were growing up, I mean getting to their teens and so on. Because they entertained a good deal of their friends; I’ve heard people speak of remembering them at that house. Then he suffered in financial reverse in the panic of nineteen seven, and one of the things he did was sell the house to Mr. Hodenpyl, and they moved back to the little house beside the factory. And when grandfather was prosperous again, Mr. Hodenpyl very nicely, offered to sell it back to him for exactly what he paid for it, but my grandfather apparently said I don’t need it anymore because my children are all gone, they’re all married and there was no need to have a big house, it was just he and his wife, my grandmother. So they continued for the next few years because in nineteen-twelve he dropped dead. And then grandmother moved on, over on this side, I think she, well that house going up College north on College, the first house on the left. Interviewer: Yes, beyond the Sherman house, what we call the Sherman house. �5 John: Well it’s not beyond the Sherman house, because the Sherman house is on Fulton street, and it’s an empty lot, then it’s the first house that way. Interviewer: It’s the Victorian house. John: Yes, it was turned into half, split up into two house, two halves, and grandmother lived in first there. Interviewer: Didn’t Mrs. Ray live there, your aunt? John: No, she lived in the middle of the block, the house that her father built for her, bought the lot and built it for her in the middle of the block, that again a New England clapboard, a little house I don’t know how to describe it, it’s fifty-three North College. All that pops into my mind from these many many years ago; it’s been a long time since I’ve addressed a letter to fifty-three North College, but that’s where it was. And she lived there with Douglas Ray, it was a wedding present. And eventually grandmother went to live with Alida, in that house and live there until she died. It must have been in the late twenties or early thirties. My mother’s family lived on the West side, on Turner Street. Again when they prospered they moved over to this side and grandfather [Alfred H. Sherwood] bought the house on the big white rather handsome house, where Eberhard’s grocery is on the corner of State Street and Madison, across from the Stuyvesant. Interviewer: I think it’s no longer Eberhard’s. John: Well it a big thing, and it was next door to Dr. Smith. Interviewer: Richard Smith? John: Richard Smith, Dick Smith yes, and of course across the street lived the Wonderlys, that one where the Stuyvesant lived or was it the next to it. Interviewer: I think it was the one next to it. John: It was the Blodgett house. Interviewer: The Blodgett house was on the corner and the next one was the Wonderly house. John: The Wonderly house right. This isn’t much for your record; that was where I was born, where the grocery store is now. I was born in that house. �6 Interviewer: In that house? That was your… John: That was my mother’s mother and father you see and apparently she came home to have the baby or… Interviewer: It was your grandfather and grandmother Sherwood? John: Yes. That’s where I was born. I think Emily was born in a hospital, I think. Interviewer: Tell us a little bit about your grandfather Sherwood, if you will John. John: He was Alfred Harry Sherwood, and his, I long thought he was born in Canada of a Canadian family. I now know that his father was born in Canada, my great-grandfather whom I never knew who came to Michigan and settled somewhere near Grand Rapids, not in Grand Rapids, that’s something I must ask mother where it was. And he sent his son back to Peterborough to go to college. And there he met my grandmother, Emily Jefferies, who had come from England with her sister; her father being a merchant seaman, out of Southampton. A merchant seaman is a man who owns his ship and sails it. They went to Australia for grain or whatever. And my grandfather Sherwood came back to Grand Rapids to teach school. But he was a budding inventor; he invented several things, one or two things he gave away to others. I think one of the funny things he invented was embalming fluid. I don’t know how he happened to get on that, but he gave it to a friend who had started a funeral home or something. Anyhow, grandfather invented, he started the Grand Rapids Panel Company, which provided the machinery and the technique for applying fine grain taken off beautiful pieces of mahogany or whatever they wanted, on to cheap wood, pine and so on. And eventually that was adapted to put graining on metal dashboards in automobiles when that was fashionable to have metal dashboards that looked like wood. He was very successful, he had one of the first automobiles in Grand Rapids and they had a boat on the lake, well they had a cottage at, they didn’t build it they bought a cottage from a man from Chicago at Macatawa Park, that my uncle said was designed by a man from Chicago called Wright. Now my uncle knew nothing about architecture, so he couldn’t have, he didn’t even know of whom he was talking, just a man called Wright from Chicago. Well you can look at it, pictures of it and see it looks as though it might have been one of Wright’s first ventures. Interviewer: Is the house still standing? �7 John: It still stands, the bungalow at Macatawa Park on the grove walk up there is very handsome. Interviewer: It is considered a Frank Lloyd Wright? John: I have talked to people who are authority on Wright and they won’t pick it because that’s all I can do is just say an uncle of mine who knew nothing of architecture produced the name Wright. You know he could have any, he just remembers that when his father bought the cottage it was said to have been by a man called Wright, from Chicago. He died in nineteen eleven, of cancer, when he was quite a young man, he was in his fifties. Interviewer: This was your grandfather Sherwood? John: Sherwood, grandfather Sherwood. Interviewer: Then your uncle carried on the business. John: And uncle Wallace, my mother’s brother carried on the business, but didn’t have his father’s capacity so it wasn’t terribly successful, and eventually went out of existence. The same sort of thing happened to my father when my grandfather died, dropped dead of a heart attack. Father was a lumberman up in the north. He has several lumber camps, and obviously his father must have given him the money to buy the timberland, but anyhow he was running these logging camps, walking around on snow shoes in winter and loving it. And he was up there when his father dropped dead. Interviewer: camps? Excuse me but what about you know, the approximate location of these lumber John: It was partly in the northern peninsula, the eastern end of the northern peninsula, but it was also, it must have been up in the area north east of Petoskey, in the northern end of the southern peninsula. Because he was there, in a logging camp when this happened and his best friend at the time was George Shelby. And Mr. [William] Shelby was president of the railroad. So they fixed up a caboose and a locomotive, and sent it with George Shelby on it from Grand Rapids up to Petoskey or where ever it was, and off on this logging road into the woods to get my father. Interviewer: Don’t you mean Mr. William Shelby, was president of the railroad? John: Yes, I said his father. �8 Interviewer: Yes I see he was… John: George’s father. And it was rather funny, there wasn’t any telegraph no way of getting news to my father that his father had dropped dead. Well everyone persuaded him to give up the lumber business, and to become head of the John Widdicombe Company, as the only son. But he again didn’t have all his father’s talents, and you know one has to keep adding ideas to a company to make it remain successful. I think my father had the idea that whatever his father had done was best, so it just went on being the same. And then the furniture business sagged in the twenties as you know, and the John Widdicombe Company faltered. And due to family feeling, father was removed from the presidency and went back to the lumber business. And various people took over, but the company must have had the will to live because it is still going. Interviewer: That’s right. I just wanted to say I think it would be interesting if you talked about your early recollections as a child and some of your childhood experiences, for your early educational experiences, things of that sort. John: I went to Miss Eastman’s school, it was a Kindergarten first, that’s the first school I remember. And then I was tutored for… Interviewer: Where was Miss Eastman’s school? John: Somewhere, I think it was one, what is that street that comes out by Rason and Dows? Interviewer: Jefferson? John: No, it doesn’t go through Jefferson, goes into Rason and Dows, it’s the street next to it. Interviewer: Oh, LaGrave? John: No, that’s down. Up the hill. Runs from the church that is next to the Masonic Temple. Interviewer: That’s Lafayette. John: No, that’s above Masonic Temple Interviewer: I’ve run out of streets. �9 John: Anyway, it was down there. And then I was tutored by Mrs. Field, so you want me to repeat the business about Jack Covode? She had four [students]; she divided her day, and nine to eleven, eleven to one, two to four and four to six. Interviewer: And where did she live John? John: She lived on Portsmouth Terrace. And she had a sister called Mrs. Herrick, who also did some tutoring, but was not nearly as good as Mrs. Field. Mrs. Field was really remarkable, ask Alexia Byrne, we owe her tremendous. She was marvelous about English. Well anyway, Jack Covode, Alexia Byrne, myself and Wilder Stevens at one point were the four that took those four hours, from four to six, five days a week. Then I went, my aunt Mary Joass, who came to this country at least once a year, if not twice to see her mother and her relatives and her friends. And one time in nineteen twenty-one, she suggested that I go back with her to England, because she was not only my aunt, but my godmother, and go to school, which I did for a year, almost two years. And then for various reasons I came back here and went to Central High School. From there when I graduated I went to the University of Virginia. When I finished there I went to New York and taught for two and a half years in Grace Church Choir School which was a resident school for boys who sang in the choir. They got it free for singing. And then I, that, the Depression was on and the church began to feel the pinch, and they turned the boarding school into a day school and cut the salaries in half. At that point my aunt Mary was coming through New York and said would you like to go to Oxford and I said that would be fine. So she gave me the wherewithal to take another degree at Oxford. From there I came back. Well, in London I worked on a newspaper for a while, the Sunday Referee, a sort of semi-scandal newspaper, as you know the English love those Sunday News of the World, the Sunday Referee. And then I met, had already known Lily Morris who was the wife of Ira Morris one of the minor meatpackers of Chicago and she had, she was a very extraordinary woman, when he was in Vienna not as Ambassador but in the Embassy, she got terribly interested in Maria Theresa. And she studied for two years in Vienna and she went as an undergraduate to Oxford in her sixties and finally finished this flight on Maria Theresa. And she was in the middle of shaping it up, you know editing and indexing and so on, and I came back to America to work with her and finish this book. But she was one of these women who needed only about four hours of sleep, and had a metabolism that left you gasping. So I, when the book was finished she wanted me to go on and do other things for her, but I said no I just couldn’t, it was just too taxing. She wanted to stay out all night and start work at eight o’clock in the morning and I just couldn’t manage it. �10 So I went to Virginia and by an accident, an accidental meeting a coincidence (which I won’t bother to go into) I got a job on the Virginia Writers Project at the WPA, as assistant state supervisor and spend five years writing a big Guidebook to Virginia and lots of other books, the book on Charlottesville on the University of Virginia which I did almost entirely. And a picture book on Virginia, which I did entirely. And from there I went into the war and went to Europe with the One Hundred Fourth Division, as a staff sergeant and a combat infantry division. And when the war was over, I for some months, I was idle not knowing what I wanted to do, and eventually got into U.N.R.R.A [United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration] and went to Poland as a special assistant to the chief of the under mission, a Canadian,”Bud” [Charles Alfred] Drury, a very nice guy, and had a absolutely fascinating time. And when that came to an end in June nineteen forty-seven, the still great unfinished business was the refugees, still in camps in Germany which we were responsible for. And we had handled the Polish; more than half of the refugees were Polish. And we handled the operation at the Polish end, and we had not authority but we had to deal with the trains that came in, which were not Polish We had many, many problems. And the man who had been in charge of that had to leave and go to England, and I had been his substitute, so that when U.N.R.R.A. came to an end, I was handling the refugee problems. And there were still nearly a million refugees in camps, so it was suggested that we open an office in Warsaw, much opposed by the Russians, because they didn’t want U.N.R.R.A. to come in, IRO the refugee organization to come into existence. But it did and the Poles accepted me as the chief of the mission to Warsaw refugee organization. I spent four years, three years more in Poland handling all that. Interviewer: Why don’t you talk a little bit about some of your friend that you got to know when you were in high school? You just mentioned to me that you lived in what is now known as the Morris manor, the house that is on the corner of Morris and Cherry Street, which was your father’s home at the time. John: Well I had known before I went to school in England, while I was being tutored during that period, I had known rather few. Should I name those few? Interviewer: Yes. John: Wilder Stevens, Lewis Reynolds, Ruth Denison, Cornelia Rood, well then when I came back from England and went to Central High School, I came to know people whom I, well came to know better as friends, people that I vaguely knew before because most of them, their parents were friends of my parents. Ed Dean, Jack Steketee, Sam and Bob Correll, Bob Oatman, Dew [DuBarry] Campau who’s Mrs. Serell Hillman now, Emily Wurzburg, …oh that nice girl who died… �11 Interviewer: ____________ John: No she was a bit too young. They lived across from Cornelia Rood. Oh dear, Kitty, her mother was Kitty. She was Kitty Seymour related to Mrs. Palmer, who was a Seymour. You know the Palmers? Interviewer: Yes I know who they are. John: Lanard, Mary Larnard, and the first Mrs., oh my memory is so bad, the man in the brokerage house down here, used to be in the Michigan Trust building. Bonnie Newcombe, who married who was a great big chap who was a broker, his sons went into it too. Cy[Cyrus] Newcombe, no Cy Newcombe was her brother, well never mind. And Barbara Vandenberg, and Catherine Handley, oh and Mary McClave and later I knew Bud quite well, but of course he in those years two or three years makes a lot of difference, and Mary was a bit younger than I and Bud was three or four or five years younger. Interviewer: Who were your parent’s closest friends during this period? John: My mother’s closest friend was Agnes Caufield, and Louise Long, and Emma Homiller and the usually the Duffys, another great friend of my mothers who died was Mrs. Shephard. Perhaps you never heard of Ned Shephard? Interviewer: Oh yes, I have. John: And Mrs. Ned Shephard and I can’t remember what her name was, she was a great friend of my mother’s but she died of pneumonia. And the other one was Lorraine McClave, not Lorraine McClave, Lorraine Bissell, who was Irving’s first wife. And the Pantlinds, Catherine’s mother and father, what was his… Fred, Fred and… Mr. and Mrs. Fred Pantlind. And the other Bissells, Olive Bissell, Mrs. M.R. Bissell, and oh dear it’s so far and so long ago. Interviewer: Of course she must have known Anna McKnight. John: Oh yes yes, all the Caufields. Anna McKnight, Marie who never married, Agnes who never married, Mrs. Hart, there were five of them, oh yes Chisolm’s mother. Interviewer: Mrs. Lichtenberger? John: Mrs. Lichtenberger and of course John [Caulfield] who … now we don’t need to go into the Peck business… John who married Clara Peck and they moved out to California. �12 Interviewer: When the depression came along I believe that your mother… John: Well my father having left the furniture business and gone into lumbering again was not nearly as prosperous as he had been and eventually my mother made an arrangement with a shop in Chicago, Blooms Bow a very nice arrangement because she had a shop in her own house, got a ten percent commission on everything she sold, and since she knew everybody in Grand Rapids and had great taste in clothing, she was very successful. And that went on for about fifteen years. Interviewer: That was the house on Fulton? John: No, a very wonderful scheme, she was first in strangely enough that house around the corner where I said my grandmother first lived, that Victorian house on College. And then she was walking down the street one day and ran into Camilla Shanahan, whose mother was very ill or had just died and she said, “we’re going to sell the house”, the Shanahan house, which was built by a Howard. Mrs. O’Brian’s brother, no I believe it was built by Mrs. O’Brian’s father. Interviewer: It could be yes. John: Either brother or father, I don’t know which generation. And then the Shanahans had bought it when they came with the Bissell Carpet Sweeper Company. And mother asked her how much they wanted, and she said, “well the real estate people were asking ten thousand.” Well mother immediately got on the telephone, she is quite clever sometimes, with Mr. Bloom in Chicago, and said, “what would you think of applying the same (cause he paid her rent) amount to amortizing a mortgage?” and he said, “fine, go ahead.” So, she bought it straight from Camilla and Florence, with no commission, so it was nine thousand five hundred dollars. And all that was paid, of course at the time, by Mr. Bloom. And when mother left it nine years ago, she sold it for forty thousand. Interviewer: It was a big house, the beautiful house. John: It was a lovely house, but the rooms were so arranged that it would have been very hard to turn it into apartments. They were big square rooms, well there’s no point in going into that here, and the plumbing was lead, it would have to be all redone, and the wiring would probably have to be all done, so mother sold it to that Institute. Interviewer: Davenport? John: Davenport. Well that’s about all I can do on that. �13 Interviewer: John I’ve noticed that you spell your name w-i-d-d-i-c-o-m-b-e, as your father did. Now the other Widdicombes have omitted the final e, what is the reason for that? John: I can tell you, I used to think that my great-grandfather had dropped the e, but mother tells me that William Widdicombe, who was the eldest son, dropped the e and persuaded his brothers to do so, and so the companies got started without the e. But it was dropped, and I know it was dropped now because I possess some letters written by the brother who stayed in Syracuse, rather the wife of the brother who stayed in Syracuse to her sister-in-law my greatgrandmother here worrying about her four nephews who were in the Civil War. So there’s quite a spate of letters. And she always signed them herself with an e. Interviewer: Well that explains that. John: But of course you can’t change the company. When the family had become more prosperous and were traveling to Europe, when they got to England they discovered that it always had the e. And so they put it back. And I have looked, I looked recently in my birth certificate and it’s spelled with an e. Interviewer: I see. John: So it was accepted with an e by that time and I was baptized that way, or rather, you know, registered. Interviewer: Tell us about your families religious affiliations over the years. John: Well I think that I, I think the Stockings were very pious and I think they were Presbyterian, but I can’t be sure. And if so that was the church I was baptized in. But my immediate family, father and mother were never particularly religious. My sister and I never went to Sunday school, a very Christian family if you like, a high sense of Christian ethic but my aunts were Episcopalians, and particularly Aunt Alida Ray went every Sunday to St. Mark’s. But I think that long ago the way we were brought up, my sister and I were rather disapproved of, because there wasn’t this emphasis on church-going. I think probably on the part of both my father and my mother a revulsion against Stocking’s piety, you see what I mean? Interviewer: Yes I understand. John: I don’t belong to any church. When I go to a church it’s for architectural reasons mainly. Interviewer: Now let’s talk a little bit about the Sherwood family who were related to you, they’re your first cousins, your generation which is still around in Grand Rapids. �14 John: Yes, all but one. My mother had a little sister who again as happened in those days, died young. But the other two grew up were my mother, and her brother Wallace, William Wallace Sherwood, who married Virginia Vevia. They had four children, Mary, Ann, Wallace, and David. Mary married, (of this is going to be hard for you) she was married three times, and consequently is no longer a Catholic, some boy who was the one from Holland? Interviewer: I can’t remember. John: Well anyway now she is married to Grindell McKee. Ann married Carl Schmidt, who was a brother of my sister’s husband David Schmidt, so those two are sisters-in-law and first cousins. Wallace married someone whose last name I don’t remember, and they have three children, Catherine, Virginia, and William (I think it is the other way around, Catherine, William and Virginia). Catherine just married Douglas Cramer, just a few months ago. David, the fourth child, never married and has lived for many years in California. Interviewer: Now why don’t you tell us about your nephew, your sister’s son? John: Oh yes, my sister has one son, William Widdicombe Sherwood Schmidt, which is rather a mouthful, who is about twenty-seven now, lives in Ann Arbor, went to the University of Michigan, and is now what do you call that, not a teaching assistant, he’s doing some teaching there while he’s finishing his work on a degree. And he married, I just said give my love to… to… it’s my age of course. Interviewer: Is it pertinent? John: No. Interviewer: He’s married you know that. John: He’s married and has no children. Interviewer: I was interested to note he is a member of Kent County Council for Historic Preservation and which saved the Voigt House which we toured together earlier this afternoon. John: This is I think though, he never mentioned it to me, but you’ve told me and one or two other things make me think he has quite an interest in old Grand Rapids and genealogical and family past history and so on. But he’s never mentioned it to me. But there are certain things that make me think he’s, privately from me, he does have these feelings. I think that’s about all, unless you can think of something else. �15 Interviewer: No, I just want to thank you very much. It’s been a delightful hour or so chatting with you. I hope you’ll be back in the not too distant future and by that time we can remember some things, you can remember some things you forgot to mention and we’ll have another session perhaps not quite so lengthy and put those thoughts and memories on tape. John: Well thank you very much. This is a new experience for me and as I’ve said it’s extraordinary to hear you played back when you’re not used to it. Interviewer: John. That never sounds like you, especially the first two or three times. Well thank you INDEX A D Auntie Rye (Eunice M. Hewitt) · 2 Davenport Institute · 14 Dean, Ed · 11 Denison, Ruth · 11 Douglas, Mrs. · 3 Drury, Charles Alfred "Bud" · 11 Dysart Hotel · 3, 4 B Bissell Carpet Sweeper Company · 13 Bissell, Lorraine · 12 Bissell, Mrs. M.R. · 12 Bissell, Olive · 12 Blodgett house · 6 Bloom, Mr. · 13 Blooms Bow · 13 Byrne, Alexia · 9 C Campau, Dew [DuBarry] · 11 Caufield family · 12 Caufield, Agnes · 12 Caulfield, Agnes · 12 Caulfield, John · 13 Caulfield, Marie · 12 Central High School · 10, 11 Correll, Sam and Bob · 11 Covode, Jack · 9 Cramer, Douglas · 15 F Field, Mrs. · 9 Field, Mrs. · 9 G George Widdicombe and Son Company · 1 Grace Church · 4 Grace Church Choir School · 10 Grand Rapids Mantel Company · 2 Grand Rapids Panel Company · 4, 7 Great Depression · 10 H Handley, Catherine · 12 Hart, Mrs. Esther (Caulfield) · 13 Herrick, Mrs. · 9 Hewitt, Esther · 2 �16 Hillman, Mrs. Serell · 11 Hodenpyl, Mr. · 5 Homiller, Emma · 12 Oxford University · 10 J Pantlind, Mr. and Mrs. Fred · 12 Peck, Clara · 13 Petoskey · 8 Jackson, Nancy · 4 Jefferies, Emily · 7 Joass, John · 4 Joass, Mary · 10 John Widdicombe Company · 2, 8 John Widdicombe Furniture Company · 4 P R Kent County Council for Historic Preservation · 16 Rason and Dows · 9 Ray, Alida (Widdicombe) · 15 Ray, Douglas · 4, 5 Ray, Mrs. Alida · 5 Reynolds, Lewis · 11 Rood, Cornelia · 11, 12 L S Larnard, Mary · 12 Lee, Mr. James · 3 Long, Louise · 12 Schmidt, Carl · 15 Schmidt, Catherine · 15 Schmidt, David · 15 Schmidt, Virginia · 15 Schmidt, William · 15 Schmidt, William Widdicombe Sherwood · 15 Seymour, Kitty · 12 Shanahan, Camilla · 13 Shanahan, Florence · 13 Shanahan family · 13 Shelby, George · 8 Shelby, Mr. William · 8 Shephard, Mrs. Ned · 12 Shephard, Ned · 12 Sherman house · 5 Sherwood family · 15 Sherwood, Alfred H. · 6, 7 Sherwood, Ann · 15 Sherwood, David · 15 Sherwood, Gertrude · 4 Sherwood, Mary · 15 Sherwood, Wallace · 8, 15 Sherwood, William Wallace · 15 Smith, Dr. Richard · 6 St. Mark’s Episcopal Church · 15 St. Mark's Episcopal Church · 4 Steketee, Jack · 11 Stevens, Wilder · 11 Stocking family · 14 K M Macatawa Park · 7 Maria Theresa · 10 Masonic Temple · 9 McClave, Bud · 12 McClave, Mary · 12 McKnight, Anna (Caulfield) · 12 Michigan Trust building · 12 Miss Eastman’s school · 9 Morris manor · 11 Morris, Ira · 10 Morris, Lily · 10 N Newcombe, Bonnie · 12 Newcombe, Cy · 12 O Oatman, Bob · 11 �17 Stocking, Alida · 2 Stocking, Billius · 2, 3 Stocking, Mary · 2 Stocking, Theodore · 2, 3 Stuyvesant Apartments · 6 Syracuse, New York · 1 T Thayer, Mrs. · 3 U U.N.R.R.A (United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration) · 10, 11 University of Virginia · 10 V Vandenberg, Barbara · 12 Vevia, Virginia · 15 Voigt House · 16 W Widdicombe and Richard · 2 Widdicombe Brothers · 2 Widdicombe family · 14 Widdicombe Furniture Company · 4 Widdicombe Furniture Company · 2 Widdicombe, Abbott · 2 Widdicombe, Alida · 4 Widdicombe, Emily · 4 Widdicombe, George · 1 Widdicombe, Harry · 1, 2 Widdicombe, Harry Theodore · 3 Widdicombe, John · 4 Widdicombe, Mary · 3 Widdicombe, Mr. John · 1 Widdicombe, Ralph · 2 Widdicombe, William · 1, 2, 14 Wonderly house · 6 Wright, Frank Lloyd · 7 Wurzburg, Emily · 11 Wurzburg, Leona · 2 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/941c200dfd603ead13f2ba1970ac2445.mp3 8231dbed4bb65bcd49e300316161502b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_45Widdicombe Title A name given to the resource Widdicombe, John Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Widdicombe, John Description An account of the resource John Widdicombe was born in Grand Rapids. His great-grandfather came to New York from England, before moving to Grand Rapids. Mr. Widdicombe's grandfather Alfred H. Sherwood started the Grand Rapids Panel Company, invented embalming fluid, and had a cottage in Macatawa Park rumored to have been designed by Frank Lloyd Wright. Mr. Widdicombe's father was a lumberman in the north. Mr. Widdicombe attended the University of Virginia. He then moved to New York where he taught at the Grace Church Choir School. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1975 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/359bbc0962780fea81924a509e591798.mp4 30170401f18ddc4ccb3d0414c9cab808 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7dd9a4f50a9b41d1dcfaa5af6361af07.pdf 71505ec4049c93b7f80df504897391b0 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Lee Widjeskog Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Grace Balog Interviewer: We are talking today with Lee Widjeskog of Bridgeton, New Jersey and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay, Lee, can you start us off on some background on yourself? But to begin with, where and when were you born? Veteran: I was born in Bridgeton, New Jersey. Raised in the little town of Rosenhayn, which is about…oh, maybe 7-8 miles away. And I grew up there, went to school and graduated from high school at Bridgeton High School then from there I ended up— Interviewer: What year did you graduate from high school? Veteran: I graduated in 1964. Interviewer: Okay. And what did your family do for a living while you were growing up? Veteran: My father was a carpenter. Often, he was a construction foreman. They did—work that he did with a lot of schools, commercial buildings…Actually, he started his career working on the Delaware Memorial Bridge as a laborer. So, he’s been all—he got around quite a bit. He originally came from Finland in 1937. And then, he ended up—actually, he ended up in the Army. He got drafted like a lot of other people and got his citizenship. My mother lived, was raised and born, just about a quarter mile from where I live today. And that’s how my father met �2 her because his sister lived across the street from where we live now. And there weren’t many people around and so they hooked up and eventually got married. And then, my dad built a house after I was born and its long part of the estate. So, that’s…and we have a—we had about a 20acre piece of ground. Mom and dad had a cow because we had our own milk, made butter. And then, in the ‘50s everybody in that area of south Jersey was raising chickens because there was big money in eggs. So, they put up a chicken coop, had 500 chickens, and we would pick the eggs and, you know, clean out the chicken coop every other year because then the chickens get too old, you know, and all that. Interviewer: Now, is that area still fairly rural? Or is it more built up now? (00:02:23) Veteran: Well, it’s more built up but compared to everything else it is still pretty rural. The land I have—I have now bought the land from my parents and it’s 2 acres less, but my sister has a house in a lot. But right around us it hasn’t changed a whole lot. In fact, across the street where my aunt and uncle lived, the state bought that and tore the house down, so it is a nice view now. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, we have gotten—it’s getting better. Interviewer: Alright, so it is not necessarily what one thinks of when one thinks of New Jersey if you are an outsider. It is not all built up and paved. Veteran: No. When I went to college, people—when they said, “Where you from?” I said, “New Jersey.” “No, where did you grow up?” I said, “New Jersey.” “But you don’t talk right.” I said, “Well, I was from the southern part of the state.” I said, “We talk more like Philadelphia.” “Ah, you know, how come you don’t say Jersey and have a harsh accent?” I said, “That’s New York area.” �3 Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: So… Interviewer: So, where did you go to college? Veteran: I ended up going to college at Colorado State University. Interviewer: Okay. And how did you wind up there? Veteran: I went there because I wanted to major in wildlife management and wildlife biology. And when I was looking through the brochures, because I asked my counselor in school and they said—they gave me a blank look and said, “Here. Well, take these brochures and look through here.” And I came up with about 5 or 6 different schools. Some I eliminated, one eliminated me because I wasn’t southern enough and this is back in the ‘60s when racial things were going on. So, they just didn’t want to deal with anybody from the north. And then, I got it down to the three schools that had the curriculum that looked like I’d be really interested in were Colorado State, University of Montana, and the Utah State. And I ended up at Colorado State, which I liked the best out of the three but they were the only school that would allow—and this is ’64— that would take—actually, in ’63—that would take an application from a non-resident prior to graduation. So, the other two schools I had to graduate and then apply. So, I applied to Colorado State in January. They accepted me and I never applied anywhere else. I figured that’s good. Interviewer: Alright. (00:04:42) Veteran: And I went—the first time I saw the campus was the day I signed the papers when I got there in September. And my mother drove me out, said—got me to my dorm, said, “Well, see you later! See you at Christmas time.” And that was…and that’s the way it was. We didn’t…it �4 was not expensive by today’s terms but, you know, fairly reasonable and I worked in the summers. My parents paid for most of it. And that’s where I started. Interviewer: Okay. Now, were you required to do an ROTC program because it was a land grant school? Or…? Veteran: There was…they gave you an option and you could do either ROTC or you could do phys ed for the first two years. Well, I looked at things. I said, “Alright. I know, you know, everybody is subject to the draft in those days. Had to sign up when you turned 18. So, I figured well, I don’t see any reason why I won’t get drafted at some point. So, I may as well sign up for ROTC. It gives me a little more of a cushion because you got a better deferment.” So, I signed up for ROTC. And then—and it’s really not signed up as such the first two years. All it is is taking the courses. But at the end of the second year, then you have to sign commitment papers and you will say I am signed up and I am going in the Army. And at that point, if you drop out of school you immediately go into the Army. You know, or if you flunk out, you immediately go to the Army. So, I signed those papers but the advantage of that is they also paid me 50 bucks a month, which is—when you consider that my tuition for a quarter, and we were in a quarter—I think— system, was $1300 a quarter, 50 bucks a month is a pretty nice chunk of change. Interviewer: Yeah. You could buy a fair amount of food or whatever else. (00:06:38) Veteran: Yeah. And so, I signed up. And I also participated in one of the—they had a ranger section, so I participated in that. And then I also ended up participating in a drill team for a little bit. I don’t know how I got in these things but…somebody else would say, “Oh yeah, we are doing this. This would be good.” I’d say, “Oh, good idea! I will try that.” And so, that’s what I did. And then finally, I had some trouble in school. There were courses I…you know, some of �5 the math courses were killing me. I finally got through them and then I had to take a soils course. It’s a six hour course and, you know, you went everyday and it was…I really had a tough time so I had to take that over. So, when I am taking these other courses, I ended up going a little longer than I would have. So, I ended up actually going for an extra two quarters. So, I didn’t graduate until March of ’69. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Now, one of the things the Army does: you also have to spend six weeks in basic training for officers. Interviewer: Okay. Now, at what—now, is this after you graduate or while you are still in ROTC? Veteran: While you are still in ROTC. And so, I did that in the summer of ’68. And I went down to Fort Riley, Kansas. So…and it was very interesting. You know, it’s basic training. They make—it’s probably a little different for officers than it is for the rest of the men, but it was six weeks and then it was over with. And then I came back to school and in the meantime, they said, you know, they are saying, “Okay, what units—where would you—what would you like to serve in? Would you like to be in artillery? Chemical corps? MPs?” You know, they have all—they have the list of different units. (00:08:34) Veteran: And the colonel that was in charge of our unit said, “Oh yeah boys, get your three selections.” You know, it is a wish list. He said, “But you have to have a combat branch as either your first or second choice.” Which I found out was not true, but I didn’t know that at the time. So, I looked at the different combat branches and I really wasn’t interested in anything. I said, “Well, infantry—that’s close to what I could understand.” You know, I run around the woods all �6 the time. I’ll try this infantry. I put that second. I think my first choice was…I think I asked for chemical corps. My third choice was MP. And I was looking—and those I picked based on what I thought I would be doing after I left the Army because I was—I had worked two summers with New Jersey Fish and Game and I worked a bit with chemicals in actually foliage control, which really, you know, it turns out Agent Orange is a—that’s a fairly good mix. And then, I also knew that if I couldn’t get a job as a biologist, I could probably get a job as a conservation officer so if I got in the MPs, that would give me a background to make me more desirable when I went to look for a job. So, I was—and then the infantry was…I didn’t see myself riding around in tanks or I didn’t like the artillery, engineers… Interviewer: You had enough of the math at that point? (00:10:03) Veteran: Yeah. Although in reality, none of that would have happened but it’s just the concept and that’s how it…So, needless to say, I was fortunate enough to get infantry. Interviewer: Okay. I want to back up a little bit here. What did the ROTC curriculum actually consist of? Because first years are classroom? Or…? Veteran: Most of it is classroom. Every year is classroom. You know, there is some drilling but it’s classroom work. They go over the basic Army procedures, they, you know, they do stuff on some of the, you know, tactics. But it is very, very broad. And you learn, you know, what’s expected of officers and how to treat the enlisted men. And you know, some people don’t pay attention to that but—and that’s—it’s very basic information. And if you remember everything, you’re good. And then when you go to the basic course in the field, then you actually get to call in air strikes, adjust artillery, and things like that. And they don’t just let you call in air strikes; they got somebody listening to make sure you give the right coordinates and, you know. But— �7 and so, you get a feel for what’s going on. And you also try out the various armaments that you are likely ton encounter. By that time, I knew I was going to be infantry, so they gear you towards that. And then when you graduate, on graduation—because I graduated in March, there was no ceremony for the school. But the Army had a ceremony for those of us who were going to be officers. They had…they, you know, gave us our bars and our commission. And then, and the first orders. And the first orders said, “Show up to Fort Benning.” Interviewer: Right. Veteran: At Fort Benning, they rehash everything you did for four years. They do it in nine weeks. Interviewer: Okay. Now, you had mentioned that when you did your original sort of basic stuff at Fort Riley, you had the impression maybe that it was a little more laid back than it might be somewhere else? Or…? (00:12:08) Veteran: Yeah. And I—only from what I heard afterwards. You know, to me it was not stressful. There was no big deal about it, so it was just… Interviewer: And when you were doing that, that was all ROTC guys? Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: They were all guys from different schools, some from the same school. But…and it, you know, and we ended up—you know—you could see…You end up having, even though we are only together for six weeks, our company ended up having a little bit more of a spree. We got together, we were being inspected by some second lieutenant, ROTC probably, giving us a ration �8 of crap about, you know, “You got gnarlies under the bunkbeds.” You’d say, “Gnarlies?” “Yeah, dust stuff.” “Oh, dust bunnies?” “Gnarlies. They are gnarlies.” They gave us a—and so we had to clean the whole place over again, you know, that kind of thing, and then wax the floor. They were planning to tear these buildings down at the end of the year but nothing new. But as a result of that, one of the guys in the group, he was very good at caricatures. And so, they made a banner and had a caricature on there. We called ourselves “The Gnarlies” and from that point— and we carried that with us wherever we went. And that’s that. And so, whenever we competed with anybody, you know, it was always “Go gnarlies!” And so, you know, which is what the Army really wants. They like the fact that you—everybody is working together. And it was just interesting. We did, you know, we took it he was challenging us in one way, but we took it that way. It worked out very well, you know. So, we had a—overall, we had a fine time. Interviewer: Okay. Now, you are going through college and you’re going through ROTC at the time when Vietnam really happens. Because in ’64, we didn’t really have ground troops in the mix because— Veteran: Right, and I can tell you that in ’64 I did not really anticipate going. They can send me some place, but I didn’t really think I was going to be getting shot at. Not ’64. But… Interviewer: Now, did you pay any attention to those developments as they unfolded? (00:14:16) Veteran: I was paying more attention, yes. And after a while, by the time ’68 rolled around, I said, “Oh…This is going to be very interesting.” And I…and the fact that I had to go an extra couple months in school did not disappoint me, you know, because I was thinking, “Well, maybe they will finally get this thing settled and I’ll, you know, I’ll miss it.” I wasn’t anxious to go out �9 and get shot at or, you know. But I, you know, and then they did the lottery in ’69. Well, I was already signed up, so it didn’t matter. But I never—people said, “What was your number?” I said, “I don’t care.” I didn’t want to know. Interviewer: Right. Okay. Now, take us through the infantry basic school at Fort Benning. What was that experience like? Veteran: That was…it was interesting. It’s very similar to the…to our, you know, our other officer training that I had at Fort Riley. But the biggest difference was I didn’t have to stay in the barracks because you were now officers so you went to—you could go to the officer barracks or, I was married at the time, so I went home to be with my wife and then we’d come back in the morning. Of course, it would be early. And there’s lots of PE but I had always been pretty well in that. I ran cross country in high school so, you know, people are dying on the run and I was “Yeah, I’ll run some more.” So, it—you know, that part was kind of fun. We ended up with a captain of our company who had been a staff sergeant in Vietnam and got a field commission to captain. And then they brought him in, brought him back to go through the officer basic training. But since he was there, they also made him in charge of our company. And he was a very interesting person. And we did some field training exercises with tactics and whatnot and he was in charge. And we were doing, you know, setting up ambushes and stuff like this. And working with him, you just—you really felt like here’s a guy who knew what he was doing, and you felt that whatever he decided was going to be right. And I thought about it years later, I said, “You know, if I was assigned to him, I would have been very happy.” I also felt that if I was assigned to him, I probably wouldn’t have survived because he was doing stuff that was dangerous, but he was good at it. (00:16:43) Interviewer: Mhmm. �10 Veteran: And I—he was supposed to be going back to ‘Nam after—he wanted to. He was—and I never—I couldn’t remember his name and I don’t know whatever happened to him but apparently somebody said he was up for, you know, Medal of Honor. You know. And if you were field promoted from E-6, you did something in the field, you know, that probably would rank pretty high. Interviewer: Do you have a sense of how old he was at the time that you worked with him? Veteran: I had a—he…to me, he felt much older than us. I don’t know how old he was. But I would say he was probably just about—he was much more worldly than the rest of us. You could see that. Not only in his Army knowledge but, you know, when he talked about women and things like that, it was like, “Okay, he has been around a lot longer than the rest of us have.” But he probably was only was couple years older, if that. You know, he might have been about…he might have been 24. You know. We were all, you know, 22, 23. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, with your group, did you have reserve officers? Or…? Academy people? Did you have anyone else with you? Veteran: It—we were…No, we didn’t have academy—academy people always went together. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And we had all—as far as I know—they were all reserve officers. And we also had some foreign officers that were training with us. We had some from Nicaragua, Honduras, Laos. And so, they were taking the training with us. We got to know those guys off and on. But that was pretty much it. We were from all over. Talked to different guys, got to know them. They were from Michigan and California and some from Jersey and some from Nebraska. You know, it was a very homogenous mix. �11 Interviewer: Now, were most of the people training you people who had already been to Vietnam? I mean, your company commander was but…Or…? (00:18:41) Veteran: Well, for the NCOs, yes. For the officers, no. The—in fact, one of the training officers—one of the guys who was like an executive officer for the training companies was actually somebody I saw in Vietnam later on. He was just a little bit ahead of us, so he had already taken his training, so they kept him over to be executive officer and then that was just stateside. He ended up over in ‘Nam the same time I did. When I seen him later on, I thought, oh look, he was in charge of me. “Hey, is that you?” He said, “Oh yeah, that was me.” Of course, he didn’t remember me. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: But… Interviewer: Now, with a course like that, do most of the people who start basic course, do they finish it? Or do they do something— Veteran: Yeah, I would say. Yeah, 95%. Actually, if someone didn’t finish it, it might be because some physical ailment showed up that…and if it was to the point you couldn’t finish the course, it wasn’t, you know, unbearable. It was just that you were going to be drummed out of the Army because you weren’t physically fit. I don’t know of anybody who…I never heard of anybody who did not complete the course or quit the course. The option of quitting the course was to go— you’d be drafted, so… Interviewer: Well, or get—I know guys who did that and got—and went straight to Vietnam so… (00:20:07) �12 Veteran: Yeah. And we did have—and you had your orders when you got there so you knew where you were going next. And my orders were to go to Fort Polk, Louisiana. And the big issue—the big thing I remember about this: I was there, you know, and they are paying me. This is my first full-time job. You know, I’ve had summer jobs but now I’ve got a full-time job. I get a paycheck every month; this is really neat. And here they are, they are paying me temporary duty pay to be there for that 9 weeks. So, I get another $11 a day I am there. It was like oh man, all this money. And so, as we are getting close to graduation for the unit, guys are saying, “Well you know, they got other courses. You can sign up for Ranger school, you can sign up for airborne, you can sign up for heavy mortar platoon leader school.” And so, I said, “Yeah…” So, I signed up for airborne. I said, “I’ll jump out of an airplane.” I had no interest in doing that, but it was $11 a day and 3 weeks a course, you know. And it’s a lot of running and again, it’s nothing that you can’t handle. And so, went through jump school. Made my 5 jumps, got my wings. And I also, then, I tried to sign up for the heavy mortar platoon leader school. And my point of doing that was because I wanted to have more experience directing fire. And I thought well, maybe there is a chance I will be assigned to heavy mortars and I know they are pretty far in the rear. But you know, I didn’t expect that one to happen, but I was more interested in getting the experience firing. And—but it turns out, that’s a 5-week course and it started every 5 weeks. Well, I took a—I should have signed up for that first, then I could have signed up for airborne because they started that every week. But I didn’t so I wasn’t able to. And so, I ended up going back down to Fort Polk. And I had actually considered Ranger school for a bit, but that’s a 10week course. Most of the time you are away from home and I hadn’t been married that long. I said, “Nah, nah, nah. I am not doing that. I am going to stay.” So, if I hadn’t been married, I probably would have tried Rangers, you know. (00:22:19) �13 Interviewer: Now, ideally you could string together enough schools that it’s all over by the time you are done. But… Veteran: Yeah, probably. Interviewer: But going that way…Okay, so now you go down to Fort Polk. So, how long was the course at Fort Benning? The infantry basic is…is it 3 months? Or…? Veteran: It was 9 weeks. Interviewer: 9 weeks, okay. And so, then you have like 3 more weeks for jump school? Veteran: Yeah. So, I end up in Fort Polk around in the beginning of August. Interviewer: Okay, so it’s not…it’s ’69? Yeah. Veteran: Pardon? Interviewer: ’69? Yeah, okay. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Now, Fort Polk, Louisiana in August. So, what was that like? Veteran: It was warm. It was humid. And it was considered by the people who are in the Army full—for life, or for their whole career—they considered going to Vietnam and going to Fort Polk as 2 hardship tours in a row. That’s how much they thought of Fort Polk. They didn’t really care for it. So, I heard all the scuttlebutt. And you know, I—when my wife and I drove down to—we drove into Leessville and it’s not a place you want to take your wife through because she’s just, you know, she’s just getting used to being in the service with you and you go in there and there is nothing but—at that time—it was nothing but the strip joints and bars and pawn �14 shops and sleezy motels, you know? She says, “Aw, we can’t be living here.” You know? We went into the post and they said, “Well, there is no on post housing for junior officers.” But they had—there were trailer parks around. We ended up renting a mobile home, which was much nicer. It turned out to be fine. And as I—so, I get there, and I am talking to the other officers that I had met in officer basic. And they—some of these guys were much more knowledgeable and then too, you know, they had relatives in the Army, so they knew what was happening. They said they had already got the scuttlebutt. They said, “Oh,” they said, “yeah, the worst assignment out there is Tiger Ridge. It’s 30 miles from post and you’re in the woods all the time.” And you know, so I heard the scuttlebutt. (00:24:26) Veteran: And so, we are sitting around—we are sitting, me and the colonel, who is giving us our assignments. And one guy gets an assignment and he’s got training company and somebody else has got a machine gun range. And somebody else has the hand grenade range and another guy has another training company. And he finally gets to Widjeskog, which is always the end of the line. Interviewer: Yep. Veteran: And he says—he couldn’t say my name—but that’s…I didn’t notice that as anything special. If he said it right the first time, I would have been really surprised. But he says, essentially, he says, “Widjeskog, hi. I see that you have a degree in wildlife biology, so I am going to send you where there is a lot of wildlife. I am going to send you to Tiger Ridge.” I am thinking, oh good. So, I end—so I report to Tiger Ridge the next day. It turned out to be the best assignment I could have ever asked for. I worked essentially half a day on Wednesday, day and night Thursday/Friday, and then turned the company back to their company commander on noon at Saturday. And then I—unless I was officer of the day, I was off until the following �15 Wednesday. So, it was like I got all this down time. So, my wife and I, we’d go down to—drive down to Houston, we’d go to Mobile. Go visit people, because I’d have 3-4 days off. Interviewer: Okay. And what were you actually doing on Tiger Ridge? Veteran: In Tiger Ridge, I worked with 2 NCOs who had been to Vietnam. And these were guys who had probably another 3 or 4 months to go when they got to out there. And they were not happy campers. But they worked with me well. They had a bigger problem with the first sergeant, which is usually the case, because I wasn’t going to give them any brassy shit, I’m the new guy. (00:26:15) Veteran: But they are showing me this is what we do, this is where you…And we set up ambushes and we set up booby traps and then we’d run the troops through it. These things, we’d set them up and ambush. And then we’d have a, you know, tell them how to set up a perimeter at night and have them digging foxholes and, you know, telling them to be quiet at night and that you’re going to be—you may have situations where the NVA or VC will be out hollering at you and trying to locate your position. And so, you know, and that’s what we did. And we lived in tents for the time we were out there. But it was, you know, avoided the snakes and it was fine. Interviewer: Okay. So, and of course you are on a ridge so at least you’re not on the swamp. Veteran: That’s right. It was nice high ground. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Veteran: Pretty much. There was creeks and then the first day I was out there, you know, I saw all the poisonous snakes in North America, except for the coral snake. I saw that a couple weeks �16 later. So, there’s plenty of poisonous snakes. And I had—when they told me, “Eh, you got to watch out for the snakes,” and I am thinking oh yeah, they told me that in Fort Benning; I couldn’t find a poisonous snake and I traipsed through the woods. Out there? Oh, man. Our biggest problem was the recruits. We’d catch these little pigmy rattlers and then they’d milk them and keep them for pets. So, you know they’d have 8-inch, 10-inch rattlers they would…And then, they’d also catch scorpions and put them in their earplug containers and have them in their epaulettes, they were going to take them back with them, you know. So, we were having to check these guys all the time and had to release the wildlife. But these are 18-year-old kids. You know, some of them first time in the wild and other ones wouldn’t touch them but you know, it’s like, “Oh, wildlife!” Interviewer: Yeah. Now, what kind of attitude did you observe among the recruits? Because this is now 1969 and most—a lot of draftees. (00:28:09) Veteran: They seemed to be pretty basic, you know. You know, they are—they didn’t have a…They were, “Aw, we got to do this.” You know? They paid—some of them paid close attention, others just did what they had to. But we never had any real problem. The only problem we ever had was when we were doing, you know, trying to get them to give up their positions on the perimeters. They’d start hollering at us sometimes. And then they’d throw rocks at us. And we’d holler back, “You quit throwing those rocks or we are going to throw a grenade simulator.” Well, a grenade simulator you don’t hear it until it goes off. So, you don’t want to be too close to that. So, we had one time we threw a grenade simulator and it fell in their foxhole. We hear these guys scrambling out of it and that thing goes off. And it’s raining more rocks at us. But you know, but that was it. The troops were basically…they were pretty good. The NCOs I worked with, they had issues with the first sergeant but the two of my guys, we got along well. And we �17 worked everything out. So, but we did all sorts of things like, you know, how to search a village. And we never—I never searched a village again. You know? And detecting booby traps and we didn’t have any booby traps out when we were in the jungle where we were at that time. So, you know, the ambush was one thing that we did do. But a lot of the stuff that we were doing there was just…It was geared for the southern part and I Corps was just a different area. I mean, it was… Interviewer: Yeah. Okay, and particularly once you get up in the hills. If you were down more—closer to the coast, you’d run into more of the other kind of stuff. Veteran: Right. Interviewer: But in the area that you wound up it was quite different. Yeah and of course Vietnam was just so different from one area to another, it is hard to plan for the whole thing. (00:30:06) Veteran: Yeah, and nobody realized that. I didn’t realize it. And even the Army, who should have realized it, they geared their training for where most of the trick work had been. And I think most of the people who were going over at that time, a high percentage of them were going to be still in the lowlands and that area because they weren’t going to the mountains. But we didn’t— but then, things were getting hot up in I Corps so… Interviewer: Right. Okay. So, when do you finish the assignment at Fort Polk? Veteran: I finished that in the beginning of early in February. And then I had a 30-day leave and so my wife and I drove home. And by this time, she’s 9 months pregnant. And so, she had—our daughter was born on the 11th of March and I was due to leave for jungle school on the 17th of March. So, I got…And I assumed—and then my orders said, “Jungle school and then Vietnam.” �18 So, I said goodbye to my wife and daughter and my parents and everybody. Took off, went down to the canal zone where they had jungle training for 2 weeks. Finished jungle training and then they said, “Alright, you have 6 days to get from here to Fort Ord. Go ahead. We will see you later.” Well, I said, “6 days?” There was airplanes. I went home. Interviewer: Right. What was the jungle school like? Veteran: Jungle school was…kind of neat. We did a little bit of ambushing but mostly it was just a lot of walking through the jungle, getting hot and sticky and they were showing you plants that you could eat and, you know, what you had to avoid. And talking about ways that you could survive in the jungle if you should be, you know, cut off from rations and…and for the most part, most of us did not expect that would ever happen. And that’s pretty much true. But the Army wanted to make sure that the officer—and it was primarily officers that went through it. They did have some NCOs—but they wanted to make sure that the officers had some background. And I think the other thing is it gave you a little more chance to get used to the hot weather before you got there. So, you know, to me it was I got to see tree sauce and, you know, it was…I was having a good time identifying things. Interviewer: Right. So, for a wildlife biologist, it’s not a bad job. (00:32:41) Veteran: Yeah. It was—yeah, I was having a good time. So far, the Army was doing good for— by—me. Interviewer: Okay, so now you go. You go home again, you get out to Fort Ord, California. Did you spend much time there or…? Veteran: I ended up being there for 12 hours. Turns out, I got there before my flight left but it was due to leave in an hour, but they wouldn’t let me board. They said, “No, we have already— �19 we went ahead and filled it. You’ll have to wait.” I said, “Oh gee whiz, I am sorry.” They said, “The next flight will be out in 12 hours.” So, I stayed in the airport for 12 hours, got on the following flight. And this flight flew from Fort Ord to Alaska, and then from Alaska to Okinawa, and from Okinawa went to Vietnam. And I was—if I had gotten the flight I was scheduled, I would have been on with a lot of the officers that I had trained with because they were all due about the same time. But because I missed that flight, I ended up going with a lot of enlisted men. So, you know, I was one of the few officers I think on board, but it didn’t matter, you know. Everybody—the guys were all having a good time. And they had a good time going to Alaska and they had a god time going to Okinawa and they had a good time with going to Vietnam. And we hit Vietnam coast just as we are getting to dusk. And you could—as we hit the—you know, flew over the ground, you look down and all of a sudden you got craters everywhere. And we are going down to Tan Son Nhut Airbase. You know, and it—you look down there and there’s craters, craters, craters, just, you know, all over the place. And at that point, everyone—the plane really got quiet. (00:34:22) Veteran: You know, it just—everybody shut up because they are all looking at—like, “Oh…shit. We are here now. The fun is over.” And then we got off the plane. Well, you’ve been on this plane for 14 hours. You step out and it’s just like a wall of humidity just…Okay. And then they hustle us off into a bus and I don’t believe it was air conditioned. Probably wasn’t. And we got on there and you got the chain link fence over the windows. And one of the guys—as we are getting on there—one of the guys says, “Is that to keep us in?” I said, “No, that’s to keep the grenades out.” “Oh…” So, it was—and by this time, it is dark, you know. And then they drove us by bus over to the barracks. And then I—that’s when I—and then the next day, I found a…I located some of the guys that I had been training with and I found my orders up on the board and �20 they said, “Yeah, your orders are up there.” That’s when I found out I was going to be a platoon leader for alpha company 2506, 101st. I mean you know, for me that was fine. And I talked to one of the guys, Bob McMann, and I said, “Where are you going, Bob?” “I am going to the 101st. I will be up at the Camp Evans.” I said, “Oh, me too.” I said, “What are you going to do?” He says, “I’ll be PX officer.” I said, “PX officer?” I said, “You are infantry.” He said, “PX officer.” I said, “Wow.” You know, I did not know that they were giving us 6 months in the field, 6 months in the rear. I had no knowledge of that. Other guys, some guys, knew it but you know, that was never discussed when I, you know, in my circle. So, I just figured well, I’ll be infantry officer for a year. And I couldn’t believe that he was going to be a PX officer for a year. (00:36:12) Interviewer: Right. Now, when you are…When you got there, did they sort of ask you anything like well, which unit do you want to go to? Or are they just telling you? Veteran: No, there was no asking. They just—they had it up on the board and here you go. Interviewer: And did you have any sense of what the difference was between one unit and another, at that point? Veteran: No. To me it was just 101st? That sounds good. I’ve heard of them. As for platoon leader, okay, I knew that was what I was going to do so to me it was like okay. You know, give me an assignment. Interviewer: Alright. Now, they—how did they get you up to Camp Evans? Veteran: From there, seems to be they probably—I think we took a…I want to say we took a C130 to Da Nang. I believe that’s what we did. And then we picked a chinook up from there and that took us up to either Camp Eagle or Evans, and I don’t recall now. And if it was Camp Eagle, �21 then they would have dropped—taken us…I think it was Evans because I think we got to Evans in the chinook. And that was my first experience with a chinook, and I didn’t like it and I never did like it from then on. It was very noisy, vibrated like crazy, and if you were on the ground, it threw dust and sand all over you. You know, just a really tough machine to be near. But we got there and then they enrolled us in SERTS, which is the Screaming Eagle Replacement Training. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And so, that’s…We did that for the next 2 weeks and that was interesting. And the purpose of that, they told us, was to give you a chance to get used to the weather before they sent you out into the bush. Interviewer: Now, physically, does your body have to adjust to all of this? Or is your— Veteran: Yeah, I think for a lot of people. It depends on what you do for—in your regular life. I mean, I worked on the marshes of New Jersey, you know, in 100-degree weather and the humidity there is more than hot. So, it’s—most of it to me was oh yeah, it’s hot. It’s humid. I— psychologically, it didn’t bother me at all. I also worked in a situation in New Jersey where we had lots of mosquitoes and other insects and so some guys talk about the mosquitoes in Vietnam, and they were just sort of background to me. (00:38:26) Veteran: And you know, and that’s just because of what you are used to. And so, I think, you know, I adjusted to it fairly quickly. What took longer to adjust to was the weight of the rucksack. But you know for the training there, I paid attention and then from there they said, “Okay, go—tomorrow you will meet your battalion commander.” Interviewer: Okay. So, what’s sort of the normal pack to carry? You said the weight of the rucksack. So, what is going to be in that? �22 Veteran: Well, the rucksacks that I normally carried on me, it was not only the rucksack but the web gear. And I would carry a minimum of 6 hand grenades, usually a minimum of 6 smoke grenades, then I would have 400 rounds of M-16 ammo. I did not carry a pistol. I had no desire to have a 45. I wanted to have—I decided I wanted the M-16 because it made no sense for me to carry ammo that somebody else couldn’t use if I got shot. So, and I wanted to be able to shoot if I had to. And I knew technically I wasn’t supposed to have to shoot. You know, if things are going well. Well, not too much anyway. But and then, I also—we all carried a pound of C-4. You’d carry 3 days’ worth of rations and that’s…those are, you know, that’s all canned rations. So, you are looking at a couple pounds for each day. Well, a couple pounds for each meal. And then you’d carry a gallon and a half to two gallons of water. And you’d carry an entrenching tool, a bayonet, you carried a…you’d have a terry towel for wiping off the sweat. You had your hard helmet. You had your poncho, your poncho liner. You carried 600—100 rounds of M-60 ammunition for the machine gun. Everybody carried that. I carried a strobe light. I carried…I ended up carrying blasting caps because nobody else wanted to carry them. And I, you know, I don’t blame them. I knew what they could do but somebody’s got to carry them, so I’d put them in my ruck and hope they didn’t blow up too fast. (00:40:40) Interviewer: So, did you ever add up what all that weighed? Veteran: No, but you know, I was told it was…it varied between sometime during the day, between 60 and 90 pounds during that period when you first pick it up. And you learn to— alright, what don’t I need? I don’t need this; I don’t need that. But I also carried an M-60 ammo box, which is about probably 3 inches and by 12 inches and about 8 inches high. And that’s waterproof. And that’s where I kept my writing utensils and if I had a magazine or book, I’d keep that there. And I always had books and magazines, so you know. And pictures from home, �23 you know. So, when you start adding all this stuff up, that’s a big…But it’s what you want. Now, the guys—some guys were very specific and say, “Oh, I am not going to carry that gun. I’m not going to carry that.” And you also had a claymore mine, that was another pound and a half, you know. So, you know, and it—and you had trip flares. You start thinking about it, it keeps going up as far as what you had. And it was easy the first time you get it all together. To get it back on the ground, you get it down there, you put it on your shoulders, and then you go to stand up and you can’t get up. So, we always had somebody there to give you a hand and then get you up. Once you’re up, you’re good. But after you had—after a while, you learned to make sure you had that on the uphill side, you’d be on the downhill side and you could get up. But trying to get into your pack and get up flat, you had to have somebody give you a hand in most cases. (00:42:14) Interviewer: Okay. So, that’s something they didn’t do at Fort Benning or any place else? Veteran: No. Interviewer: Not on that level. Veteran: We never carried rucksacks like that. Interviewer: Okay. Now, you go out. Now, did you join your unit in the field or were they in the camp? Or…? Veteran: I got—well, after I got done with SERTS, I met Colonel Lucas and, you know, he welcomed me to the organization and everything. He said, “You know, your guys are out in the field right now.” He said, “Go down to your—see the first sergeant down there in alpha company and he will make arrangements to get you out in the field.” And so, I met with Sergeant Ross who then said, “Here, go see supply. They will get you your rucksack.” So, they loaded me up �24 with all sorts of good stuff. And the next morning I went to the chopper pad. I got on the chopper pad with the mail and flew out there. It was about a 20-minute flight. And thought—I am looking down and I see, you know, we are flying around and there’s this opening and I see some smoke there. I don’t see anybody down there. You know? Just the smoke coming up, you know. Purple smoke. And then they come down and then the door gunner says, “Alright. Get out.” And you jump out. And you know from my training, I said, “Okay, I got to get away from the helicopter as fast as I can because if it gets shot down it becomes a danger.” So, you get out and you run away. And so, I am running off into the bushes and there’s not—I don’t see anybody, you know. It was like I hope somebody is here. But I am just doing what I was trained. I run off in the bushes and then somebody says, “LT, over here!” and then the radioman, who was—had called in the chopper—and somebody else came out and got the stuff that was on the—the other stuff that was on the helicopter. And then he led me back to where the company was. (00:44:02) Interviewer: Now, when was this that you got out there? Veteran: Turns out it was about the 30th of April. Interviewer: Okay. So, you are all—by this time, the battalion—they have set up the base on Ripcord? Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Which, we will talk about in a moment. And so, you are out there in the hills in the jungle and so forth, the highlands; you’re not down in the lowland area at all. Now, who was the company commander at the time you joined? Veteran: My company commander was Albert Burkhart. And he had been company commander since January. And he eventually—he left the company at the end of May and moved on to �25 another job. But I met him and Captain—or Lieutenant Wilcox at that time. Jeff Wilcox was there. He was first platoon leader. And second platoon leader, which I was taking over, was Garrett Kelly was there. He was still there, and he was going to show me around for a couple days. And third platoon was headed up by Jim Noll. And we just had three platoons and that was it. And then the—there was also the foreign observer, the FO, he was…that was Lieutenant Brennan. And he was West Point and so was Wilcox. Everybody else was either OCS or I think the other two officers were OCS. And but that’s—and I got meet all them. And yeah, and that’s where we—we operated out of there for the next couple…I guess next week or so, we operated in that AO. And there really wasn’t much going on of significance, other than the one thing I remember is hearing that the first platoon or first—yeah, first platoon had flushed a pheasant out there and off of a nest and they were checking the eggs to see if they were edible. But they were talking about this long-tailed pheasant. So… Interviewer: Now, about how many men were in your platoon when you got there? (00:46:06) Veteran: I don’t remember right off hand, but invariably it was probably no more than 25. The most I ever recall having in my platoon I think was after Ripcord and I remember I wrote to my wife and I mentioned that we had 29 people; that’s the most I have ever seen. So…. And there were maybe more people assigned. There were probably more people assigned to me. But what happens is people are going in for medical reasons, they are going in for R and R, they deros [rotate back to the US], they come back and forth. So, you just—you never have a whole lot of guys in the field with you. And in fact, shortly after I got there one of my NCOs came back about 3 days later. On the next time we got resupplied, he comes into the field, so I met him. And he just came off of an R and R, so he spent a lot of time just telling everybody how great R and R �26 was and the good time he had with this great girl he met in Thailand, etc., etc. And then after everything was over, you know, and everybody else—I said, “Alright guys, break it up gang. Back to playing Army here. Get back out.” And then he came to me and says, “Oh LT,” he says, “I got to go on the next chopper here. I got to go back in.” I said, “Why?” He says, “I got the clap. I got to get some shots.” I said, “Oh, okay.” Interviewer: Well, a good time has its price. Now, how did you approach taking over a platoon? How did you deal with the men and so forth? Veteran: Basically, I dealt strictly with my platoon sergeant. I depended on the platoon sergeant. And it was recommended by most people, you know, pay attention to your platoon sergeant. If he’s got any experience, he probably knows more. And I…My platoons sergeant was Dennis Leverett, and he basically made sure I didn’t do anything dumb right away. After a while, I got, you know where I would do dumb things on my own but…You know. And that’s…And that’s pretty much their job: they are—they know all the platoons, squads, squad leaders. And so, I learned from him and that’s pretty much how things worked out. (00:48:22) Interviewer: Okay. Now, you would also have other people usually with you. You’d have at least a radio operator? Veteran: Yeah, I had a—my radio operator at that time was a guy by the name of Michaels. I think it is Thomas Michaels. And so, you know, I deal with him on a regular basis and…but most of the time, my dealings are with the company commander and my platoon sergeant. And I would talk to the squad leaders on occasion but more than likely, you know, the platoon sergeant and I would talk about what the company commander wanted us to do the next day and he would designate. “Alright, first squad, you are going to be the lead squad.” And if there was any �27 problems then I—he would come to me and say, “Okay, I got a problem here,” and then I would handle it. But it wasn’t—normally the guys all…they knew what they had to do. Interviewer: Okay. Now in the first weeks when you are out there, you said there wasn’t much going on, so you were just patrolling? Veteran: Yes, it was just doing the RIFs, you know, Recon In Force, checking the area. We would move our location a little bit. I don’t recall that we moved very much. But apparently, we went back and forth on this one hill. We’d be off of it and then we’d come back a day or two later. And it was—and I think that—I don’t know that we ever…we might have had some contact but not my platoon. Interviewer: Okay. So, the enemy is not really very visible. Did the platoons operate separately? Or…? Veteran: Yes. In most cases with our company, and I think with most of the companies around Ripcord, platoons operated 3-400 yards apart. Or meters I mean, as we talked in those days. You’d be that far apart. And so, that’s what we would be doing. And we just wouldn’t…you know, we wouldn’t see—I’d see the company commander, usually because I was the newest new guy, he usually kept his CP with my outfit. And that makes sense; he wants to make sure you are doing things right and he doesn’t want you to go off on a tangent yet, you know, he’ll let you do that later. So…but so there was usually the CP was with one platoon and then the other two platoons worked elsewhere. And then once in a while, we’d join up with another platoon for a while. But there was always a—seems like we almost never were we all together, except for resupply. (00:50:43) Interviewer: Okay. �28 Veteran: And even at resupply, it would be 1, maybe 2 platoons there and then they would leave, and the third platoon would come in and get resupplied, you know. We’d have all the stuff there, but the other ones would be providing security or, you know. Interviewer: And this is resupply from helicopters? Or from bringing things into LZs in the jungle? Veteran: Yeah, the helicopter—anybody who was in the Army in those days—when you get out of the Army, the Huey helicopter just…yeah, it would shake you because—and I have analyzed it in mine because in the 20 years later, I’d hear a Huey flying over and I’d be looking up, you know. And I know it’s a Huey, I can tell by the sound, but I got to look up and see the Huey. And now they don’t fly them very much; most of them are grounded. You know, the National Guard doesn’t have any; they have gone over to Blackhawks, which got a completely different sound. And…but you had this funny feeling in you, and it was sort of…it was a feeling of anticipation and also a little bit of dread. And the reason is because the helicopter was a major lifeline to the rear. And it brought out your food, it brought out the water, it brought out ammo, it brought out mail, which is just the best thing in the world that you can get out there. (00:52:05) Veteran: But when you came in—when it came in—the enemy knew where you were exactly. So, you might get mortared now or you might get attacked. It was like—it was a two-edged sword. It was really good to see them but then it was like oh man. And they also, you know, they med-evaced you if you got people injured. So even when you had a med-evac, you needed them here, but you hated the fact that they had to come because now the enemy knew for sure just your location. So, it was that kind of feel. It was a love/hate relationship for a long time. And like I said, 20, even 30 years later, I still had that feeling. And then two years ago down at Fort �29 Worth, we had a helic—a Huey. One of the guys owned one and he brought it to the reunion. It was like oh… Interviewer: Still don’t like the sound. Okay. Now, what was the battalion’s mission at this point in time? This is like May of 1970 now. What are they doing? What is Ripcord, for now, for the audience? Veteran: Well, Ripcord by this point was a fully established firebase. And the purpose of setting up the firebase is to provide fire power in the form of artillery to the Army units, the infantry units, around it. And also, they were able to fire over into the A Shau Valley with their 155s. and I don’t know but I suspect that the whole plan was to set up these bases and they were probably going to make a foray into the A Shau to get rid of some of the supplies that the NVA had been stocking over there. The whole purpose is to provide more security for the ARVN who were going to be taking over because we were now winding down. So, if we can reduce the amount of supplies that NVA had available to them, then the ARVN will have more breathing room. And so, you know, we had O’Riley just up a little to the north of us. And I don’t know if they had plans to open another firebase or not but this…We got the impression that this was what the colonel had in mind. It’s not like he said, “Oh, here is what we were doing.” Interviewer: Yeah, yeah. Veteran: Somebody knew but I was a lieutenant. (00:54:15) Interviewer: Right. So, in hindsight, you got to do the research or talk to higher ups to figure out yes, this was supposed to be a jumping off point to actually launch the ARVN first division into the A Shau Valley and—which was a main kind of supply route as well as storage area to get from Laos and the Ho Chi Minh Trail into the lowland areas around Da �30 Nang, where there was…that was sort of a big target area for the enemy. So, if you mess them up, mess up their plans, their supplies, and…Okay, and then initially, at least, that seems to be working. You are there, they are not putting up much of a fight. When you were patrolling, did you start to find enemy supplies or indications of their presence? Veteran: They found some before I got there in April and found a couple caches in the area. And that was over near probably Hill 600, 605 I think, or somewhere in that area. So, they were finding some but when I went in May we weren’t finding anything. And then they finally decided, by the middle of May, they said, “Okay, we are going to combat assault you guys to a new location.” And so, I think it was the 13th of May they picked us all up and flew us into a new site. And there was—it was reported that it was a hot LZ, but they didn’t fire when I was there. But it fired up some, you know, maybe the first chopper but nothing got—nobody got hurt. And then from there, the next day we moved out. And the first platoon led, and the point man was killed. Bob Lowe was killed, and a couple other guys wounded. Wilcox was wounded and ended up having to go back to the rear. And we found a bunker, couple bunkers, there. We didn’t get any of the NVA, they just dropped off the side, which often was the case. And that was the first real contact that we had. (00:56:10) Veteran: And I was told to get my platoon up there and destroy the bunker. And you can’t see it. By the time I got there, the NVA had left but we weren’t sure, and I remembered I had a light anti-tank weapon, which is a collapsible Bazooka sort of thing. And I took that, and I fired it at the—what I thought was the bunker and it turned out it was. And I, you know, I look at it now if there was anybody there, I was dead. But there’s nobody there so it worked out fine. But and that’s what we did. And then the next day or so, we moved out. Again, we were moving in, patrolling in, platoon units. And the company commander was with my platoon and I think �31 about…I think it was on the 20th. And then we ran into a trail watcher. And he allowed 5 people to pass him. We didn’t see him. He might have been hiding behind a tree or something. Finally, the—I am the 5th guy, I get past him. There’s a wall of bamboo and then my radioman is coming behind me, the guy steps out, fires up, wounds my radioman. Gets him in the buttocks. Got the million-dollar wound; he got to go home. And the guy behind him was startled and didn’t fire. And but the—it was real steep. We are up on this part of the trail and its like this and the guy is over here. And as soon as he fired, he just dropped right down the side of the hill. We fired and of course it was all over his head and we never got anybody, and we called in an evacuation and med-evaced my radioman out and I got to assign somebody else to carry the radio. Carrying the radio was not necessarily a good job. Yeah, you didn’t have to walk point, but it was a target almost all the time. And if you were in front of or behind the radio, you were also a target usually because that meant you were a person of authority. And they didn’t know if you’d be in front of him or behind him. So…But the guy behind the radio in this case had an M-79 grenade launcher so they didn’t think he looked like the guy to shoot so they shot the radioman. (00:58:32) Interviewer: Yeah. Well, would they be able to spot the radio or tell the difference between that and a regular ruck? Veteran: Yeah, it’s—it was a big boxy contraption like that, and it had the antenna up. Yeah, you had that on your back. It’s…and you had the headset fit here and strapped on to your rucksack. So yeah, it’s pretty obvious. Interviewer: Okay. Now, let’s see—do things kind of—does the tempo kind of pick up a little bit? You get into late May, into June. You get more contact? �32 Veteran: Yeah, it was picking up at this point because some of the other units were pick, you know, running [into] things. And before we hit that trail watcher, we actually had seen a footprint in the trail. So, now we are starting to…and it was a fresh naked footprint. So, then we are like okay, something is going on here. Now, you understand that the area that we were in, there were no villages. There was…and there were no civilians. Everybody we saw, they were NVA. They had uniforms on, they had pith helmets and khaki shorts and shirts. So, you didn’t have—it was more like World War 2 in that respect. You didn’t have to worry about are you going to shoot the wrong guy? Well, yeah, you did have to worry but you know, it was less of a worry. It wasn’t like will this guy come get me later when he takes his pajamas off and puts his helmet on? You know. So, that was kind of good. And so, if we saw any sign of people, we knew it was the NVA. And but we didn’t see…We went through the rest of that month; I didn’t see anything. We did find a 50 caliber—51 caliber location where they had been. They set up to fire the 51. We found some more bunkers that we destroyed. So, we were finding things like that. We didn’t encounter anymore people though. I mean, my platoon didn’t. I don’t recall the others encountered anybody. And I…and you know, significantly what I remember about that period of time was when things were quiet, it was just really nice. (01:00:31) Veteran: You know, I was the biologist again. And when my troops found out I had a degree in biology, they were bringing me stuff all the time and I’d identify them. I’d say, “Well, maybe I can help you, but I didn’t study jungle biology.” But I saw—you know, I did identify some of the things that they brought me. And we also—we had centipedes and millipedes and they were poisonous. And you know, but they were beautiful: all sorts of colors on them. But you didn’t want to get bit because you could get a reaction that wasn’t nice, or you might. And of course, we always had leeches and earthworms that were a foot and a half long and they’d come out at �33 night and crawl over your hand and scare you to death. I saw one snake the whole time I was in the jungle. And I only saw 4 feet of it: I didn’t see the head. Interviewer: Alright. And at this point, what is the mood of the men in your unit? Morale level? Veteran: It seems pretty good. I mean, they’re—you know. They like—I would say that at this point, they are comfortable with the captain. They’re not sure about me. I’d only been there a couple weeks, you know. They’re—they never trust the new LTs. You know, you have to really do something to…and so far, I hadn’t done anything special. And they were, “Eh, I don’t know about this guy…” And I am—but the platoon sergeant kept them in line and, you know, kept them— “Don’t worry, he’ll be alright.” Interviewer: And in the meantime, you didn’t do anything stupid. Veteran: Yeah. And that’s… Interviewer: Alright. Okay, so we have gotten you pretty much through late May of 1970 here and maybe into early June. You say that you’re encountering—more things are going on now. There is also at a certain point a command change in your company. Now, how does that come about? (01:02:22) Veteran: Yeah. Well, it—after we finished going through that area after my radioman got shot, about two weeks after that we ended up on a hill for resupply. And Colonel Lucas sent out a Captain Hawkins to take over the company. Interviewer: And was he a captain at that point? �34 Veteran: He was captain. They promoted him early because his promotion date was supposed to be like the 6th of June but they—the colonel wanted him to take over the company. And part of this, you know, we suspected that he was another West Pointer like Lucas. So…But the two of them got along very well. and he had been doing, apparently, fine when he was working as a lieutenant with Charlie company and got to know Lucas, I think, in that period of time. And I am sure that Captain Hawkins probably was looking to get—I know he wanted to get a company and probably just said the sooner the better. What we heard later was that the, you know, the colonel thought that Burkhart was not aggressive enough and I could understand. I didn’t feel that he was aggressive. We had a good time. We were enjoying the for… as much as we could enjoy it. But we were, you know. We were doing what we were told. And…but that took place, I think it was the 31st of May. And then we were still—and we worked around that AO for another day. Burkart left and then on the 2nd we picked up and flew out. And now there is—this is a period that it is somewhat confusing. I have a memory of what happened on that period but then I have looked at the official log and they have us way someplace else. And I have to talk to more people but as far as I can remember, I was only on Ripcord one day, maybe two. But in my memory, after we got the new captain, they picked us up and they were going to—the assumption was— that’s what I remember—is we were going to have…we were doing a CA: Combat Assault. (01:04:44) Veteran: So, they were going to pick up and we were going to go someplace else. And that’s the way it always worked. And, you know, that’s my memory as an officer and I don’t think they would have said, “Oh, we are going to go to Ripcord,” unless we were going there. So anyway, we get up in the air and then instead of flying directly over to where we normally go, we are making this big leisurely circle up around 2 or 3000 feet up. And I think what was happening— �35 and I’ve never had a chance to ask Hawkins about it—is I think they were getting a change of orders. And I think at that point, Hawkins and Black Spade [Col. Lucas] were talking about where they wanted us and Black Spade said, “No, I”—I think what Black Spade—“I am going to need you down here.” And so, we made this big circle. And I remember that day very well because I am sitting on the outside edge of the helicopter. And you had your legs hanging over the side so you could get out fast. And well, we are making this big turn but we’re not going very fast so centripetal force is not there. And I am starting to slide off the…my butt is sliding; I am heading out. Well, I got nothing to grab onto. I look to my radioman, I said, “Grab my ruck.” And all he had to do was hold it and it stopped me. But I was already thinking about whether or not I could grab that strut as I fell past it. (01:06:13) Veteran: And if I didn’t, it was over. But that was—I remember that really well. and then we finally—they decide where we are going, and we landed on Ripcord. We got on Ripcord and then they said, we were told, “Alright, you guys are going to take over the security for Ripcord. And Delta company”—I think Delta company was there at the time—"and they’ll be going out into the field.” Okay. We had not done security for Ripcord yet. So, and usually they would rotate companies. So, that’s what I assumed we were doing. And because we were going to be there for a while, the—back at the rear—they set out a PX conex. It’s this big metal box with doors on it, you know, with was about 10 feet long and 8 feet wide. And they had it filled with junk food from the PX, and you could buy it from the PX. And then they had sodas and pretzels and chips and peanuts and all this stuff that you would like to buy but you don’t get back to the PX. But oh we—it was a change of pace. And we were going to be here on the firebase for the next, you know, usually it’s a month. So, hell yeah, we’ll do this. So, everybody goes to the— they buy all sorts of cokes and sodas and different things, takes it back to their bunkers. And we �36 are eating the stuff and we are fixing up the wire and everything, getting ready to take over full time. And then some time in the late afternoon, the word comes down that oh, change of orders: you guys are walking to Hill 1000 tomorrow. Well heck, we got all this stuff. We are not going to carry this stuff with us. You know, you don’t carry sodas in the field. You might carry—some guys might carry one but it’s terrible. It doesn’t quench your thirst; it just makes you thirstier. (01:08:07) Veteran: And you don’t carry pretzels and chips because you don’t have room for them and they’re too noisy, you know. So, and then they said, “The firebase is going on 50% alert tonight.” Because they had a—apparently, they had something from the intelligence that said that the NVA were planning an attack on a firebase and of course they didn’t know which one, but they thought it might be Ripcord. So, we have this, you know, alert. Well, when you have a 50% alert, you don’t get very—you know, you’re up for two hours, you sleep for two hours. Well, that doesn’t work very well. And so, you end up with not much sleep at all. And so, it is almost more of a party. Well, one of the guys in my platoon—and I thought it was Tommy Swain, but he said he didn’t remember it—but one of the guys in my platoon had a transistor radio and he was tuned in to the Armed Forces radio station and they are playing rock music at the time. Well, technically you are not supposed to have that in the field, but we don’t check too close. But as long as you are out of bunker line, nobody cares. And but we also had—every unit had what we called Micky Mouse radios. These were intra-platoon headsets. So, you had communications within the platoon that wouldn’t go over the other net. It was all line of sight. It worked very decently on the firebases. It was worth nothing in the jungle. It—a guy would be 10 feet away; if there’s a tree, you don’t hear—you can’t hear him. So anyway, Tommy is on, listening to the radio. So, he tunes the radio until the song starts, puts it on to his Micky Mouse radio, and he �37 broadcasts it to the rest of the guys, whoever could hear it. And then, when the song was over, he would then DJ the record and say, “Okay, that was so-and-so by Rolling Stones.” And then he would say, “And if anybody wants free chips or soda, come on down to Bunker 37. We are open all night.” (01:10:14) Veteran: And that was the kind of thing that we were doing. Well, that was…So, that’s where we end up. So, we were there on the 2nd and then the next morning we moved out. And then we walked over to Hill 1000. And that’s when we ran into the NVA. And had two guys that—my point was John Conrad and the other fellow, Little, and we hit the—they ran into some NVA sitting there in the trail eating. And John fired his gun, as the point man, and then I think it jammed or whatever, he just fired one shot. His point guy who was his side command was supposed to follow up. Well, it turns out Little was deathly afraid of the whole thing. And he just couldn’t. I mean, he bailed out. And so, when John didn’t get any backup, he bailed. So, then we pulled back. We called in some airstrikes in the area, you know, tried to clean them up. And what they did was they came closer to us. And of course, we couldn’t tell. And so, we had to go back in there. And my point team wouldn’t go back in because they almost never do when they run into something that doesn’t work out. So, I told the squad leader to get another point team. And he ended up getting…Wieland Norris came up and said, “You know, I’ll do point.” And so, he got point and then the platoon sergeant—or the squad leader—is Orville Kroger. Or wait, it’s Kuzar, Kuzar I think it is. I can’t keep track. Anyway, he takes the slack position. And so, we start back out. We didn’t get—we just barely—I don’t know, we might have moved 10 yards or so and then from the back, Norris’s squad leader comes, you know, hustling past me. And I remember grabbing him by the arm. I said, “Where you going?” he said, “I got to get Norris off of point.” (01:12:29) �38 Veteran: And so, I let him go and he walked past me. He goes past the assistant gunner, the machine gunner, gets up to Kuzar and then Kuzar turns around to see what’s going on and about the same time, Norris says to him, “I think I hear something,” which is not the proper response. The proper response is shoot. And with that, the NVA fired. They hit Norris; killed him outright. And a second guy was aiming at Kuzar and hit him in the shoulder because he had turned. He ended up with a shoulder wound instead of probably a heart wound. And then another bullet went through his cheek and that hit right under—grazed the chin of Wagnon, who was coming up there. And then, all hell breaks loose and then we end up going online. We push them off, we never—they fired and then they left. Interviewer: Now, did Norris have experience at point? Or why was the sergeant going after him? Veteran: He had only been with us for about a month or so and the sergeant didn’t—he didn’t want him on point at this point in his career. And when he found out that he had volunteered, and you know, I didn’t know. You know, these guys take care of this stuff. And so, that—I think he almost had a premonition. But once he heard that Norris was up there, he wanted to get him off and it was just too late. And so, we lost that guy. And then we had Cobras come back in later on. One of my guys, McVay, he got some wounds, minor fragments from that, so we medevaced him out. (01:14:21) Veteran: And then the next day, I think we medevaced…We took Norris’s body out and then the next day, or a couple days later, first platoon ran into somebody and a couple guys were killed in that. And I don’t really remember much about that; I was told about that later. It wasn’t my platoon so that’s what I remember. And then, by that time, it comes around to the 9th of June. And we are having a stand down by the battalion. The battalion would have a stand down where �39 they would get everybody into the rear, give them a break, refit, and then they also do some retraining, take you out to the range, sight your guns in again. You know, practice ambushes just in case you forgot. And it’s a—you know, it’s a chance in the rear. Guys get to clean up, get to actually take a shower. Get a hot meal that you didn’t cook over C-4. Stuff like that. And so, we went in on the 9th and we were there until the 15th. We came back out. We also went down, I think, guys say we went down to Eagle Beach. I did not go to Eagle Beach as far as I can remember. I think I would have recalled that. I suspect that they had me—I know I gave some classes when they came back. So, I was probably preparing for the class. Typical, what the officers often did. And that’s, you know. And then we went back out in the jungle on the 15th of June. And we were out in the—and I get up that morning to go out in the jungle, felt like I had bruised my arm. You know, my elbow was sore. I thought, hmm, must have hit it in the dark or something, you know. No big deal. Go out in the jungle, they drop us off. By noon time, my elbow had swelled way up. You know, and I—and it was tender just having the cloth…it hurt. And I couldn’t move it. (01:16:16) Veteran: The only way to get my rucksack off was to use the quick release. You know? So, I went to the medic and I said, “You know, what is this?” and he looked, and he said, “Oh, it looks like cellulitis. Let me give you some penicillin.” Cellulitis is just a bacterial infection. It comes when you get cuts and scratches. You can get it here in the states. And I got it over there. And so, and then that night I actually had nightmares. I was running a fever, it got bigger yet. So, the next morning they were—they said—well, they had changed again. New orders. Now we are going to go secure Firebase O’Reilly. And the ARVNs had been securing it. It was their artillery unit up there, but they had their own infantry around it. But now their infantry is going out in the field and so we were being sent there to secure O’Reilly. So, we got—choppers came in and I told the �40 captain, I said, “I’ve got to go back to the base hospital. They want me to go take this to look at.” So, I ended up going into Camp Evans. And you know…Well, I walk on into the medical building there. They said, “What’s your problem?” I showed them. They said, “Oh yeah, cellulitis.” They said, “Here.” They stick an IV in me with a liter of glucose and penicillin. And then, “Here, take this and walk out this door and on your left, you will find a barracks. Go find a bed. They should have a rack there. Hang this up.” And so, that’s what I did. And then every so often, they would come in to check the drip. And I went through 4 liters of penicillin, glucose, in about 3 days. And then the swelling went down. They said, “Yeah, if the swelling doesn’t come down after a while, we are going to have to lance it.” And it really hurt, so I wasn’t keen on them lancing it. (01:18:14) Veteran: But then I recovered. While I was there, I am talking to this sergeant who was in there for the same thing. And he said, “This is my second time in here.” And he says, “They will not send me back out in the field again.” Because the antibiotics they had for it at that time, it was penicillin and tetracycline. And if you had the penicillin, then they would give you the tetracycline, but they didn’t want you to get it again because the penicillin probably was not going to be as effective the second time around. So, they—if you got it the second time, they pulled you from the field and you had to keep clean. And that’s what happened to this guy. He had already been there. And I didn’t want a second round in particular. So, a week later I am back on O’Reilly with our guys. And then it’s a—and about that time, my platoon sergeant who had been, you know, dealing with me all the time, hederosed. He left; you know, he was going back to the states. And so, I had to select a new platoon sergeant. And I selected Johnny Brown. And he was a—just an E-5 staff buck sergeant—but…and I don’t remember the details. But he was the one I felt was going to be the best for the job. I had Wagnon and for some reason I did �41 not pick him. Again, I don’t know why. I don’t remember. But I picked John Brown. And so, and during that period of time, I had two black guys, Conrad and Little, and Little didn’t like me. He thought I was prejudiced because I made him work with some of the other guys. And I think he felt—they also felt that, but they said, “We’d like to be transferred to third platoon. They have a black platoon sergeant. We think everything would be better.” I said, “Oh, that’s fine. I got no problem with that. If you have a problem,” I said, “I would have taken care of it.” They said, “Well no, we just want to be there.” I said, “Okay.”. So, I contacted third platoon sergeant. (01:20:22) Veteran: I said, “Do you want these guys?” He said, “Oh yeah.” So, he took them. And I talked to him some weeks later. He said, “You didn’t do me any favor with the one guy, did you?” I said, “Well, I didn’t say it was a favor.” I said, “One of them,” I said—and this guy, Little, he was just…There’s no doubt in my mind he didn’t belong in the field. He had a real problem with—he was afraid, and that’s understandable. I—you know. Some people can control their fear, others, you know…But whenever things happened, he would get as far away from the shooting as he could. And I understand that, you know. I wanted to but I didn’t, you know, because my job came first. But some people just can’t do that. It’s not that—I never felt that he was bad; he just couldn’t handle it. That happens. So, and eventually, they got him out of the field, but he had to get wounded to get out of the field. So… Interviewer: Alright. Now, did having Hawkins come in as company commander kind of change the way you operated? Veteran: It didn’t to any great degree. We were still operating as single units, single platoons. He was running a few more ambushes than we had run before. But it hadn’t changed right away. And I think Hawkins was just feeling out things. He got a feel for things in that little brief time in �42 June before we went on stand down. And then he was getting a better feel for everybody as we worked on O’Reilly. And that was—when you are on a firebase, it’s a real pain in the neck. It’s hot. You got no sunshine. It hits 120 in the sun all the time. And you are working to keep up the wire. You are checking claymores and all this stuff, and you are continually up there doing stuff. You are running recons out into the jungle and coming back, making sure the NVA aren’t scooting up around you and stuff like that. (01:22:24) Veteran: So, it was—I never liked working it. I really was much more comfortable in the jungle. Even though it was humid, it felt better because I was in the shade. It’d be 95 in the shade with 95 humidity, but it was better. It’s all relative. And also, I felt I had more control of what’s going to happen to me when I was in the jungle, even though that was not really true. But on the firebase, you were like on the target. They know where you are. And we didn’t like them to know where we were. We couldn’t help it, though. Interviewer: Okay. Now, were there—with O’Reilly, you said there was a Vietnamese artillery unit there. So, what impression did you have of them? Veteran: I didn’t have much dealings with them but they work on a whole different level. You know, they are more basic. They would have chickens that they would be slaughtering for—to eat. And they tended to…you had to watch your stuff. They tended to latch on to anything that wasn’t watched closely. So, they would steal your C-rations if they could get them. So, you just sort of, you know, kept them at arm’s length. We had a couple Vietnamese working with us. We had our interpreter, Long. He was an ARVN. That’s the army of Vietnam. Staff sergeant. He was very good; everybody liked him. We would buy rice from him. He would go home once a month and pick up these bags of minerals. Vietnamese mineral rice is what we called it. And he’d—you know, a little bag he would sell to us for 25 cents a bag. And we would, you know, we used that �43 to supplement the C-rations, to make it taste better. And I was…I’d walk through forest and part of the jungle and I’d have a bag of that. I’d be chewing on it. You know, it would be raw. But you had enough saliva, then I could—I wouldn’t get hungry. And Wilcox said, “Yeah,” he says, “after you told me about that,” he said, “I started doing the same thing.” He said, “That was really a pretty good idea.” (01:24:23) Veteran: But you know, we just did things like that. But a lot of guys would buy the rice. And Long was talking about his brother. His brother had a cleft palate, and he was saving the money so he could have the operation done to cure him. You now? So anyway, we liked the guy. Interviewer: Yeah. Now, did you also have a Kit Carson Scout with you? Veteran: We had Kit Carson Scouts. Bob Counts in my platoon, had his own Kit Carson Scout. And usually, every platoon had a Kit Carson Scout. Some of them were good, some of them were…They didn’t like the war before, they don’t like it now. So, you know, it—most of the guys did not have a great deal of trust in the Kit Carsons. You know… Interviewer: Okay. And what was a Kit Carson Scout? Veteran: The Kit Carson, for anybody who had never seen them, these were NVA soldiers who had come over to our side. We called them Chieu Hoi, open arms. And they would Chieu Hoi and then the agreement was they Chieu Hoi, alright, we would like to make you a Scout. And if you become a Scout, you help lead us. You know, keep us out of trouble when, you know, the NVA are around. You will see signs and stuff like this and explain it to us. And then as a result, you get paid this much money. And we—and I don’t know what they were paying but from the Vietnamese point of view, it was a lot of money. So, you know, it was pretty enticing for these guys. And some of them had relatives in the south. And they, you know, they would do that. And �44 that’s what we used them. So, you always had one guy in the unit who was a handler. He was taught Vietnamese, and he would deal with the guy. And so, when his Scout went back to the rear, which they’d go back once a month, he went with him because that was his job. So, he had to keep track of him. And he might go down to the village, but he’d be there when he came back so that everybody would know that’s my scout. And then he’d come back out. (01:26:22) Veteran: As a result of that, a couple times when we got shot at, Bob Counts wasn’t there because his scout had to go back. So, as an interpreter and a scout handler, that’s really good because you get to the rear a lot more than the other guys do. Of course, you have to—if your scout is going up at point, you’re the side man so…It doesn’t—it’s not always perfect. But every job is that way. Interviewer: Alright. Now, as we get at the end of June, beginning of July, now things around Ripcord, or at Ripcord, started to heat up. And so, what are your experiences like at that point? Veteran: Well, at that time, I remember when one of—well, Charlie company got hit, which I think was the 2nd of July. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And we, you know, we are a couple—five kilometers away, maybe six or seven from where they are. And we heard…You know, of course we are doing radio and we are running our security at night and everything. And then we are still up on O’Reilly. And then we heard that they were under fire. And we could see. You know, it’s four or five o’clock in the morning. We could see the shooting going on way out there, because we are on a hill and we are looking down. And we were monitoring what was going on on the radio. And you know, and it was like �45 oh, this is not good. And my thought was, when I heard all this, I heard that they lost eight people and had all these wounded, I said, “Well, I would bet money that we are going to take their place.” Because I thought about it. I said, “It would make sense to bring them to O’Reilly, but then get refitted, get new people, and send us out there because we are all, you know, we have been here.” But that’s not what the colonel did. The colonel got a new captain, brought in Wilcox, and gave him new men, and then sent him out back into the jungle, which I…Oooh…It’s not the way I would have done it, but I understand his concept. You know, don’t want the guys to get gun shy, and just keep them going. But…whew… (01:28:29) Veteran: That’s—you have lost your company commander; you have lost a bunch of guys. And all of a sudden, now you got all these new guys, you’re going back in the jungle right away? Oh man. To me, that’s kind of…There was an opportunity to do something, and I thought they would have but they got one day off and then they are back out there. So…And then, it wasn’t too long before they’re, you know, then we hear about them fighting up on Hill 1000, helping Delta company. And so, it’s like—so, we are hearing stuff, and we are up and over on O’Reilly. Nothing going on here. You know, the ARVN are firing some rounds here and there, but you know, we are fine. And the NVA had attacked O’Reilly a month before we got there. And they had—and O’Reilly was extremely steep. I mean, it was almost like that. I mean, if you dropped—if your helmet came off, it went a long way. And the ARVN—the NVA had tried to do a sapper attack. They were in the wire and—when they were discovered. And the ARVN killed like 70-80 people. They were just throwing grenades down at them. It was like shooting fish in a barrel, you know? I think that maybe two ARVNs were killed. So, they had really decimated them. So, no matter where we—you know—this time there is nobody up there. Well, but I know that I said, “This can’t last. We are going to be going someplace.” And then finally, �46 the 10th of July they said, “Okay, we are going to go. We are taking you out towards Hill 805.” And they combat assaulted out there and dropped us into the jungle. (01:30:11) Veteran: And what was really scary about that that we got off the helicopter, we got warmed up, and we could hear shooting in all sorts of directions. It wasn’t aimed at us. Now, we didn’t—we never ever were close enough to other units that we were getting shot at. But here we are, we could hear other guys shooting. We said, “Oh, this is scary.” Because, you know, there was lots of big—they are not just shooting for fun. They are shooting because there is NVA there. So, you know. And they might have been 5-600 meters away, but it was still…but it made us really tense. Interviewer: Yeah. But there was a company from another battalion too, 501 I think, that was on top of 805 and— Veteran: Well, not yet. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay, but they landed around the same time that you did. Veteran: They were landing about the same time. And then, and so we wandered. We positioned ourself and then finally on the 12th…I believe it was the 12th of July, we assaulted Hill 805 with Delta 2501. And they came one side, we came from the other. And you know, they had prepped it with the artillery, and we bombed it. And they had dropped tear gas on it. Because I remember smelling the tear gas. It wasn’t very strong by the time we got there but there was nobody there. It was very nice; just the way we would like it, you know. And so, we set up and Delta company was supposed to be, you know, they had most of the hill. We had a little saddle. And that night, it might have been…I am not sure if that was when—it might have been that evening or it was sometime during the day. Jim Noll was wounded with his radioman, Brady. Because they were �47 medevaced out. And I think that might have been at night, but they got wounded somewhere in that period of time. (01:32:07) Veteran: But that night, the NVA attacked Delta company. And apparently, they didn’t know that we were on their flank. And so, once things started, then Hawkins said, “Alright, open fire. Just keep it down there.” We were raking their flank. And we took no casualties at all in our unit because they weren’t planning for us to be there. And I have learned years later that the NVA, before they make an attack, they are very particular about getting everything just right. And apparently, even—you don’t vary from that. If the boss said, “Everybody, attack this way,” everybody attacks this way. You get hit from the side? Don’t worry about it, that’s not your problem. And that’s the way they did stuff. I mean, I didn’t know that then, I learned it years later. But a number of officers who had dealt with them said, “Yeah, that’s how they do things.” And so anyway, they made their assault, and we rake them on the sides. And they took some casualties up there on the 805, but overall didn’t have too many. Mostly wounded. And I, you know, I was thinking the next morning---they said, “Okay, now Alpha company, you guys are going down in the valley.” And so, we were thinking oh, good. You know? And I—looking for whatever we could find. You know, somebody said, “Oh, we are supposed to be finding the gravesites and the…” It doesn’t matter; we are going to be looking for whatever. So, we head out and again we are working as separate platoons. And most of the time, the CP was with first platoon because this time he’s the one who had come over to take over first platoon. Wilcox had been promoted and moved on to Charlie company. So, but he’s a—was another West Pointer who was anxious to get in there. And they got him. Hawkins brought him in. (01:34:09) Veteran: And so…But he, myself, and Jim Noll were the platoon leaders. And we had a new foreign observer, an officer. That was Steve Olson. And he was working with his RTO, Floyd �48 Alexander. And but, so CP was working with first platoon a lot, sometimes the third platoon because third platoon had lost their platoon leader. And their platoon sergeant—I don’t think Hawkins trusted as well. he was relatively new. He hadn’t been there a long time. So, Hawkins was—and that’s pretty typical of what they would do. And so, we were—during that period of time—we were—my guys were getting—they were all nervous. And I, you know, I had maybe 20 guys in the field. There weren’t very many. And we would—we got to be really quiet. Platoons are notoriously noisy. Ask the recon guys. Recon guys hated companies, line companies, because they are too many people, and they make two much noise. But we were so tight and so frightened about oh, we might run into something; let’s keep quiet. Maybe they won’t know where we are. And so, and we were still looking for them, but we wanted to find them before they found us. And so, we were moving around, and we found some bunkers. I managed to gas my—some of my guys—while we are gassing the bunkers. And everybody told me never to touch CS again. But we did—we never ran into any NVA. So, and then finally, I think after a couple days of doing that, we ended up with a CP. And when that happened, oh man. All I’d hear was complaints from my troops about when are we going to get rid of the CP? They are too noisy! You know, the NVAs are going to find us. So, but we never did get rid of the CP because then we ended up drawing in with somebody else. (01:36:10) Veteran: And…but before that had happened, there was one period of time when we were still working separately. Again, my guys were very nervous. And I only had—I had so few people. I only had really two squads. So, this squad would walk point today, second squad walks it tomorrow. So, it was this—I think the second squads turn to walk point. And the sergeant comes to me, he says, “They won’t walk—nobody wants to walk point.” And I said, “What do you mean nobody wants to walk point?” “Well, they don’t want to. It’s too scary out there.” I said, �49 “Well, we can’t stay here. We are going to have to go.” I said, “I can’t have first squad do it. They just did, they just walked point yesterday. They did their day. It’s your turn.” “Well, I can’t get anybody to walk it.” I said, “Well, screw this.” So, I figured well…I at this point was like what do I do? Give a direct order? And if they refuse the direct order, then what am I going to do? Going to get rid of them? Does that mean I would have to call in a helicopter? I ain’t doing that because I didn’t want a helicopter showing off our position even anymore. And I didn’t feel that anyone—I didn’t want to challenge them on this. So, I said, “Alright. Hell, I’ll walk point.” So, I grabbed my radioman. I said, “Let’s go.” And we start out. And I—it wasn’t too long before they come up and the second squad comes up and says, “Get off the point. We got somebody to walk point.” So, they walked point. And later that night, I heard from…I don’t know who, somebody told me. I always thought it was Tommy Swain. Tommy says, “No, I didn’t talk to you.” But he didn’t even remember me so it’s possible that he did. But somebody told me, he said, “You know LT, you know why they walked point?” (01:38:08) Interviewer: Alright, so you were talking about this business about walking point and you’re taking it over. Veteran: Yep. So, one guy says…he says, “LT, you know why they didn’t want you to walk point?” I said, “I didn’t think about it.” I said, “I just—I got somebody to walk point.” He said, “Well, it’s not that you’re really popular or anything. It’s just that nobody wanted the responsibility of running the platoon if you got killed.” And I thought, years later, I think about that. It made good sense. The platoon sergeant was brown. He had only been platoon sergeant for a few weeks now. The guys didn’t have any experience being behind him as platoon sergeant. I think if Leverett had been there, they’d have said, “Go ahead, LT.” you know? But I think that was part of it. And the other ones looked at it and said, “I don’t want to be in charge of this �50 outfit.” You know, and if he gets killed, then I got to make the decisions. So, this…it’s interesting, but it worked. And I never had the problem again. But I wasn’t really happy being on point, but I didn’t see another way around it, other than…And if you don’t—and I felt that if I didn’t do what they are willing to do, you know, then…you know, they are not going to have any faith in me at all. And so, and then we ended up with the CP. And by this time, you know, finally it’s…I think it was about…it was the 18th of July. We were supposed to get a resupply. And so, we are on an LZ and the LZ is maybe—it’s about one and a half, two kilometers from Ripcord. And we can actually see Ripcord from where we are. We are standing there, waiting for the helicopters to come in, you know. And as we are standing there, we see this chinook coming into Ripcord, and we hear—in remember hearing the 51-caliber machine gun fire. And the next thing I know, you see the chinook and the blades go out of sync as it got hit in the engine. And then it nosedived or came down on a rear end, I don’t recall, but it crashed into the firebase. (01:40:16) Veteran: And as it turns out, it was carrying fuel and it landed on the ammo dump, the 105 ammo dump. And it went also where the fuel—the other fuel bladders were. And it just…well you know, it looked just—you see this big explosion. A mushroom cloud goes up and we are looking, just thinking oh man, there’s got to be all sorts of people getting killed up there. You know? And my first thought, after thinking about that, man, I hope they didn’t have the mail on that helicopter. You can see where your priorities are when you are out in the jungle. It’s I hope they don’t get killed but there better not be any mail on there because it would get burned up. Now, as it turns out, one man was killed. One of the guys on the helicopter got trapped underneath and they weren’t able to get him out. And it took longer than it seemed to us. It took maybe 30 seconds. And then later on that day, our resupply helicopter came in and a couple of the guys that we had were going back for R and R, so they hopped on. And then, we had either 5 �51 or 6 guys get off that helicopter. And I know that…and I have tracked down 4 of the 5 and I know that they were new guys for our unit. And so, and I got—at least two of them were for me. One was Gary Foster and the other was Don Keifer. And they…and these guys were cherries. This is their first day in the jungle. Well, they were flying by the firebase and it’s blowing up. You know? And then they join us in the jungle. And the next day, they got everybody situated and the next day, we are walking down the trail and we stop because I had taken a wrong turn. We were going to tie up with the first platoon, if I remember. (01:42:11) Veteran: And of course, we are waiting until I get turned around, you know, 2 NVA walk up on Captain Hawkins and his RTO. And they were just—walking along, had their guns in a sling. They didn’t know we were there. And Hawkins looks, holy mackerel! Looks at his radioman. His radioman can’t get his gun out fast enough. Hawkins got his gun and shot them both, killed them. And that was…so, for the guys that had their first day in, these new guys, the first day they see the firebase blow up. Their second day, we are killing NVA right away. And every day after that we ran into NVA. And that’s the experience that these guys had. Now so, the next day was the—that was the 19th—the 20th, we found the commo line down in the valley and we tapped into it and we started listening to what they were saying. We found out it was, I believe, between the regimental headquarters and their mortar section. And they were directing fire onto Ripcord. And they said, “Well, if—when you tap into it, it drops in volume.” So, they were going to—they said, “Well, there must be a break in the line, so they are sending teams out to check for us.” So, the first platoon was set up with ambushes on both ends. And they sprung one ambush and wounded some NVA that ran off into the jungle. And then, while we were waiting there, we were picking up water down by the stream and one of my guys, Miller, he looks down and he sees an NVA come out on a rock, scouting us. And he kills him with his M-79. Plays him out. �52 And so then, that was the kind of stuff that was going on, you know. And then we finally get back. You know, it got late, and the captain said, “Alright, we are just going to go back to where we were last night,” which is unusual, but we had to. And so, and then the next morning, I think third platoon beads off and they run into two NVA coming up the trail. (01:44:11) Veteran: And they fired them up; they wounded one and killed one. And then we’d go looking for the body of the NVA that we had left the day before and it had been removed and was gone. And so, we checked these guys and then we search the area, looking for more NVA. Didn’t find any. Head up. You know, this is the 21st. We head up to new NDP and Chuck waited until the last minute to leave, so it was almost dark. And they scouted a place to go. Well, I guess it’s probably maybe 500 meters away. And then, I was tailing Charlie at the time. We had—we were the last platoon, and I left Walker, Russ Walker, and a Robert Janelle—who we called Sparky— we left them behind with a radio and they were to look for any trail watchers that might be following us. And then we went—we were only 100 yards from them. And then it wasn’t much more than a half hour; all of a sudden, they fire up and they killed one NVA and wounded another who ran off. And when they searched the body, they found that the guy had a map of positions on Ripcord. He had been a recon sergeant who was checking Ripcord in preparation for an attack on Ripcord. And I don’t know if he delivered his message or not but, you know, or maybe he was going to be scouting. But he was doing something, but he never made it. And so, somebody booby trapped the body, you know, so in case the—when the NVA come to pick him up, we’ll get a few more. They put, you know a hand grenade underneath it and stuff like that. And then end up—we set up for the night. And around 11 o’clock that night, we heard the…an explosion down by that area. So, we know that they picked up he body. If they were smart, they �53 would have used grappling hooks and pulled the body and then waited a while. But we don’t know what they did. We liked to antagonize them like they antagonized us. So… (01:46:13) Veteran: But so, we spent the night there on this hill. And the next morning was the 22nd. The plan was…the plan that I was told, and this is what I remember, and we were going to leave that hill, go to the southeast to—down the valley and up this other side, to this LZ. And then we were supposed to get resupplied. That’s what I remember from that day because this was my birthday. I was thinking oooh, resupply. Maybe my wife planned it enough that she could send a package in time for me to get it. You never know. Maybe I will get a package from home. Always looking for mail. So, that’s what we were—I thought we were going to do. And I think that was the original plan. But what happened is that the first platoon is headed out first thing, went down into the valley. And then later on, they were called, told to come back. Apparently, and I don’t remember this, but the other people told me that they ran in—they got twisted around and actually fired at each other for a little bit. Nobody got hurt but, you know, and then they got reorganized. But it was my impression that I remembered was that they went down, and they were able to just get to the other LZ and then Hawkins got word from the colonel he didn’t want us to go over there, he wanted us to go north. So, we had to wait for first platoon to get back. And then first platoon came back. By this time, we had been on this hill for, you know, it’s almost one o’clock. About one o’clock now. And rule: you are off of there by nine because the NVA don’t have enough time to set up an attack. Now, we had smelled NVA in the morning. And we sent riffs out, but nobody saw anything positive. Somebody said that they thought they saw a hand. You know, but you know that kind of thing. (01:48:13) Veteran: Well, we had picked up so much NVA equipment, we thought the odor was coming from that. And the NVA smelled different than GIs because their diet is more fish. Ours is beef �54 and chicken, so we have a different odor. We didn’t use deodorant, but we all smelled the same badly. So, if you are—if the wind is right, you can smell them. And I am sure they could smell us. And we smelled them but hey, we didn’t see anything on the riffs, and you know, I think they were further away than the riffs were going. And they moved in gradually. And at any rate, when first platoon got back, then Chuck said, “Okay,” that’s Captain Hawkins, he said, “Alright Lee, take your platoon and head north,” because we were set up and it was the right place to go. So, we headed out to the north. And by now it is close to 1:30. We got 100-175 meters away from the platoon, from the company. And we are strung out. I had 16 guys with me. Two of them were cherries and the rest had been out there a while. And we got less than 200 meters away from the company, my point man runs into an NVA unit setting up a mortar and a trap. Well, you don’t run into a mortar unit because they are behind all the troops. So, I assume what had happened, and I found this out just from years later, the fact that the NVA set up, and they are told to do this, and if you—and if something gets tosses in the works, they don’t know how to handle it. Whereas if—and I think we walked up on them. They heard us coming and they moved aside and let us come through. And then after we got passed, they closed it up because they were told you are going to attack with one of the—after the mortars go off, go up the hill. (01:50:20) Veteran: So, we were behind them, but we don’t know it. We run into this mortar squad. McVay is my point man. He sees him; he comes back, he says, “There is somebody up there.” I said, “What do you mean there is somebody up there? Why didn’t you shoot?” “Oh well, I thought it might have been ours.” And I said, “Oh, shoot.” He said, “Alright.” So, I got a new—I got two guys to go up. It’s Janelle and Walker. They worked together a lot. So, they go up and they run into the NVA and we are right behind them. The NVA open fire with their—they blow down a— open up with machine guns, AKs, and they fire and RPG—blow this tree down in front of us. �55 You know, and my radioman gets shot in the leg, breaks his leg. I think it broke his leg, but anyway, he wasn’t able to walk. So, we are trying to get him out of there. Drop—lose his rucksack and that’s where his radio is, but we are getting so much fire nobody wants to get the radio, so I shoot the radio up so it wouldn’t get into enemy hands. We go back—we drop back 10 yards or so. Meantime, the mortars are going off, they are hitting the company with tear gas and explosives, and they are actually making an assault. The NVA are making an assault right behind the mortars. Now, I am told about this later because I heard the mortars going off, but they weren’t hitting me because we were too close to them. And about that same time, the NVA that had let us through then started shooting at us. They figured once the shooting starts, they can shoot anywhere. And Gary Foster, who was one of the cherries, he’s at the end. He’s an E-6. He’s busy. He sees an NVA coming down the trail. He throws a gun up: pew! Drops him. (01:52:15) Veteran: And he says, “That’s the only NVA I saw full time.” He said, “After that, they all went behind trees, and a guy behind a tree is shooting at us.” He said, “I’d throw a grenade and they wouldn’t shoot anymore. Then there would be another one,” he said, “I’d throw a grenade.” He threw a dozen grenades and every time he threw one, they quit shooting. He says, “Dead? I don’t know. I don’t care.” He says, “They quit shooting.” And he got hit with satchel charges. One blew his shirt off. Blew out both his eardrums. He had a second degree burn on his left shoulder. He had multiple shrapnel wounds. My platoon sergeant who is back there with him takes it on the opening volley, takes a bullet through the face. Goes in the—goes in once—in think the mouth or something. Went in through the mouth, goes out part of his tongue and his jaw, goes out the side of the other cheek. Didn’t kill him. Didn’t hit anything vital but he couldn’t do anything but keep his head down, so he didn’t choke on his own blood. So, he was out of �56 everything. His radioman, Marty, got hit with shrapnel. He lost his radio. We condensed and it took a while for those guys to join up with us. And I think…I don’t know if Marty got back there with him right away or if it had been later, but Marty went back there, he patched up the— Interviewer: That’s Martin Glennon, the medic? Veteran: Yeah, Marty. As soon as he could. And then they—I remember them hollering as they came in so we wouldn’t shoot them and separate them from us. And so, we got into a condensed perimeter. And I doubt if the perimeter was more than 4 meters wide, 10 meters long. Something—maybe 12 meters long. And it was…but they were only, you know, there was 17 of us in there. And I was in the—pretty much in the middle, directing and just checking the, you know, making sure everybody is down. They are firing at movement. They don’t see anybody. We can’t see maybe 5 meters. I mean, the jungle is so thick. But you’d see bushes move, so you would shoot there. (01:54:19) Veteran: And because we are laying down, they are shooting back at us, but they are shooting over us. And it was stable like that. We are shooting them. And apparently somewhere in that period of time, I don’t know exactly when it happened, one of the—my NCOs, Tom Shultz, got—he had been really nervous for a couple days and he had bad feelings about this whole thing. And something happened. Somebody said they were next to him and a grenade went off or a satchel charge and he lost his glasses. And they said he disappeared. And we don’t know if he got blown away or if he moved and got killed, but we found his body after the battle up towards the company. He may have panicked and tried to get to the company. We don’t know what happened to him. It’s any number of scenarios that could have happened. But at any rate, he didn’t survive. But I had—and then…but I had no radio. My third radio was due for backlog because it wasn’t working. So, I don’t have contact with Hawkins, my company commander. �57 And he’s not coming to help us because I heard all the shooting going on up there. I figured well he’s got his own business. So, I pretty much figured okay, we are on our own here. Okay. Yeah. You’re going to do…at one point, the Martin Glen, the medic, came to me. “LT, what are we going to do? We got to get out of here.” And I said, “We got no place to go.” I said, “They are all around us.” And I said, “There’s not as many over there down by the valley,” I said, “but I am not going into the low ground.” I said, “We won’t make it.” I said, “We got guys here that can’t move to quickly.” I said, “We are not going to go down there.” I said, “All I can see is we need to stay where we are right now.” (01:56:05) Veteran: “Oh, I don’t think that’s good.” I said, “I know. It isn’t good but it is all we can do.” And that was the decision we made. It turns out it was probably the best decision I could have made, at least for surviving at that point. And at some point, after we had, you know, gone through this, there was one point when apparently the NVA were making a concerted effort to get us, wipe us out, because all of a sudden, they were throwing satchel charge after satchel charge, grenades, and lot of shooting. And it was coming from all sides. At that point, I happened to be up on my knees and a grenade goes off 10 feet away, a chicomm grenade. Well, they are not very good grenades, luckily, and they don’t break up in lots of little pieces. But I got hit on the thigh and the shoulder and the arm but nothing serious. A little more than skin deep, you know. But another piece of that shrapnel hit Galindo, my machine gunner. You know, lodged in his cheek, you know. And he ended up with tunnel vision from that injury. But and somebody says that the other part of that hit Sparky Janelle and he died from it. And I don’t know if that was what hit him or…But you know, that’s the way those things are. You could—and he was further away. And it just…you don’t know. One of the things I have learned is that when the shooting starts, everything is chaotic and, you know, all the bets go out the window. It’s just luck �58 of the draw. Things happen but you may do something completely right and get killed, do something completely wrong and survive because there is so much stuff flying around, you don’t know what is going to happen. Your best bet is to stay low and that won’t guarantee anything either. Interviewer: Okay, so what enables you guys to survive that attack? Veteran: Well, we kept shooting at them. You know, we were—the guys were pretty good controlling their shooting and they kept shooting. And this lasted—and I don’t know how long this attack lasted. Probably 5 minutes, 10 minutes. I don’t know. You know, I wasn’t checking my watch. But you know, and they were so close to us that their satchel charges were going past us. You know, their hand grenades were going both sides. They were going back and forth. They might have hurt their own guys as much. (01:58:21) Veteran: But eventually, they—it just came to—it didn’t completely stop but it did slow down. And I heard later that the guys in the rear monitoring the NVA broadcasts said that one NVA unit said, “We have got this group, you know, surrounded. We are going to finish them off.” And that may have been us they were talking about. It could have been the company. But they said that person didn’t broadcast anymore. So, whoever it was didn’t do well. And so, meantime, my radioman—even though he was wounded, finally got the other radio operating. And that was when I finally made contact with Hawkins. And I don’t know…I think it was an hour after the battle started. I don’t know. Something like that. I made contact with Hawkins and I remember he said, “You know, we are in the clear.” You are not supposed to talk about how you are doing in the clear, but it was necessary for him to know. And I said—he says, “How…you know, what are your casualties?” I said, “I have lost a pair.” And he said he had lost a basketball team, that he knew of. And he said, “Okay.” He says, you know, “I know where you are now.” So, he could �59 deploy the artillery and the Cobras and everything else better. And then he proceeded to do more of that. In the mean—and they had been—what he had been doing up there I have been told that they were doing all sorts of fighting and trying to reorganize. They had been really disorganized. My unit was fortunate because we all stayed together. The other groups got disarrayed. It took them a while to get back to fighting. And so, there was lots going on. But I am not going to really talk about what they were doing because it’s really second, third hand. (02:00:16) Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Veteran: But eventually—so we had Cobras coming in and then finally Chuck said, “Okay, we got a jet coming in. We are going to drop some 250-pound bombs. Now, keep everybody down.” So, I tell everybody to get down. And well, I don’t remember him saying this is going to be really close. In fact, I thought accidentally it was really close. And then…but maybe he said it was going to be close. I don’t remember. But all in know is it was really close. And as I recall, there were two bombs. One of them landed maybe 75 meters from us. These 250-pound bombs are supposed to be 200 meters away, you know, for safety purposes. And the other one is—I don’t know if anybody could ever verify it but I—the other one did not go off. And I remember seeing it when we got back to the company later that day. Just, you know, sticking in the ground. But maybe—you know, the memory is not good all the time. But the one went off. I remember; that was no doubt about that. And when it went off, I mean, the skies turned black. The sun was obliterated for a bit. And all the—every tree between us and the bomb that was more than 8 feet high was cut down. I mean, it—and as you got closer to the bomb, there was less and less. So, I mean it—all of a sudden, we could see. We could see some places 30 meters now because the bomb had cleared everything. And it was where most of the NVA had been operating out of. and that’s where they were, you know, launching their attacks after they regrouped. And so, they �60 really got decimated with that. And then, it was only after that—I don’t know, it was 10-15 minutes after that—I am up on my knees again. I don’t know what the hell I am thinking. (02:02:20) Veteran: I look back as a smarter guy in old age. I am thinking jeez, stop that shit. So, I am up on my knees and I am looking, and I see this NVA soldier coming. A jet is coming over and he is running down the trail towards us carrying an RPD, which is a machine gun. And so, I tell the guys, “Hey! Shoot that guy!” Well, they are all laying down. They can’t see him. Well, I thought well I guess I got to shoot him. So, I throw my gun up and I start shooting at him. Well, I am scared. And I see the bullets hitting the bushes and trees to the left and to the right of him, and he stops you know, and he’s looking this way and that way. And he doesn’t—he’s scared too. And I am firing single shot: pump, pump, pump. And I am thinking to myself: you’ve got to aim. But I am scared, you know. I don’t want to stop because I don’t want him to shoot at me. And then I run out of bullets 18 rounds later, then he runs off into the bushes, because he is just as scared as I am. As far as I know, I didn’t touch him. I may have wounded him, but I don’t think I did. And he runs off into the bushes. I get a Cobra online and send the Cobra after him. Interviewer: Alright. So, we have gotten you through sort of the climax of the battle itself on July 22nd. But—so the enemy—the airstrikes have brought in. The company is connected with itself. But you are still out there in the field at that point? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: So, now what happens? Veteran: Well, it’s the same. After we had that incident with the NVA, then we were able to— probably another hour from that, we joined up with the rest of the company. And so, we �61 proceeded to—now, the first thing we started doing: it was just getting—it was starting to get dark. And we would proceed to check all the rucksacks, looking for water because by this point, nobody had water. (02:04:18) Veteran: And if you lost your rucksack, there might be water in it, but you had to find it. So, and I remember getting a drink of water. It was just the best water I have ever tasted in my life. Earlier in the day, I fully expected not to survive the day. And it was only after getting radio contact with the company that I thought there was a chance. So, then I finally got some water, so it was wonderful. We—and we, you know, distributed the water to the wounded and everybody. And then we started setting up the perimeter for the night because we assumed that we were going to be hit again that night. And we spent, you know, at that point, we had at least 12 or 14 people who were seriously wounded. And then we had—we had lost—the company had lost about 12-14 people altogether. And all but 6 people were wounded. One of the guys—two of the guys in my platoon made it through the battle without being wounded. One of them got hit with a piece of the flare ring at night and got a gash on his head. So, he ended up getting wounded anyway, but a different way. But so, we set up and we fully expected to spend the night fighting the NVA. And we tried to dig in but the—it was very difficult because you had a lot of big trees and lots of roots. And—just—you’d hunker down some place and waited. And they had flare ships flying around all night long, waiting for the attack. And they were dropping flares continuously. There was no attack. In the meantime, the battalion was firing interdiction rounds on artillery in places where we thought the NVA were or where they might be traveling to to get—come up there. So, they were hitting the valleys and the streams based on the information they had. And a lot of that probably was the reason the NVA were unable to do anything. The other thing is they lost a lot of people in the battle with us. (02:06:22) �62 Veteran: We lost a lot of people for our—on our end—but they lost apparently even more. And they were unable to successfully keep the pressure up. They didn’t have the people anymore. So, I remember that night it was—I tried to stay awake, you know. And it wasn’t like it was 50% guard. There was nobody else to guard with you. It was like you got the radio. You assign somebody to hang on there on the radio with you. You both pretty much kept your eyes open. And finally, just before daylight, the flare ships went off because up where they are, it is daylight. Down in the jungle it is still pitch dark. And they left. And I just couldn’t—and I fell asleep in the dark, you know. And I slept for maybe a half hour. I woke up and okay, I felt better, and I was still alive. And then Captain Hawkins said that Delta company was coming in to relieve us. And the day before, we didn’t know but on the 22nd, there were no other infantry units in the jungle. They had all been pulled out on the 21st. And they had looked at having Delta company come in and give us a hand. But by the time they got them organized, they prepped a landing zone and it caught fire. And then before they could—they said, “Well, we will hold off a bit.” And by that time, we had controlled things. We had finally got to the point where okay, looks like they got it under control, but we will relieve them in the morning. So, some time that morning, 8-9 o’clock, they show up, coming walking down. (02:08:09) Veteran: And then they proceeded to dynamite and C-4 a landing zone. And it was down in the—down where we were. We were supposed to go, you know, a kilometer up to this other landing zone. Well, that—they couldn’t haul everybody up there that needed to be hauled. So, they blew an opening big enough to get the helicopter. And then the first helicopter I think started flying out of there around 10 o’clock. And they had to just fly straight down, about 100150 feet through the trees. You know, trees all around them. Come straight down, pick up 6 guys, go straight back up, and then fly away. Very dangerous thing for the helicopters around the �63 enemy because you are a target. But the NVA were so badly beat up, they weren’t able to get close to us. And so, they—we took all the badly wounded out first and then the dead, and then the next level of wounded and then the rest of us went out. So, I was back at Camp Evans by around noontime. And I was on probably the second to last chopper out and Hawkins was on the last one. But then Delta company came out after us and they were extracted by, you know, by 2 o’clock. So, by 2 o’clock, the entire area was evacuated. There was nobody left. Ripcord had been finished off, as far as evacuation, they said by 11 o’clock. We were the…Delta company were the last people to leave the jungle. We were the last unit to be assigned out there and get shot up. And then got back to the rear and I remember—to me, you know, this is—you have to understand: I didn’t know at all what to expect. And whatever happened, I just assumed this is what—this is the way things are. So, we get back to the rear and the first sergeant is there and a bunch of the guys who were in the rear and they were all, you know, congratulated us and shaking our hands and welcoming us back and it was like…I am thinking what’s this about? You know? I was out there, we got shot up, we got back. It’s what we are supposed to do. And, you know, I didn’t realize just how bad things had been, you know, until maybe later. (02:10:27) Veteran: And then I, you know, went—and I had also—during the fight, I lost a tooth. My new platoon—my new sergeant, E-6, was throwing grenades again when he was back with us and needed some fire cover, so I was giving him some fire cover. He throws a grenade. He obviously let it cook off a little bit before and as its going out, I see it going out, and think I got to get down. It goes off. Piece of shrapnel comes back and went right between my lips, hit my tooth, shattered the tooth, gets up and lodges in my gum. Good thing I didn’t have my mouth open: it would have gone through the back of my head. But no big deal. You know, it was like—you know, the adrenaline is flowing so much that day that you didn’t feel, you know, no pain. So, we �64 get back to the rear. I go have my injuries looked at. And they say, “Oh yeah, you lost that tooth. We will have to cut it out. Come back tomorrow.” They checked the shrapnel. They said, “Alright, that is minor.” They said—they X-rayed my head. They said, “You only got that one piece.” They said, “That will work its way out in a month or so. Don’t worry about it.” So, you know. And then it went…and then I have very little—I don’t remember anything else from the time I was back at Evans. The next thing I remember is we were going back in the jungle. And that was about 5 days later. I had a whole bunch of new guys. A couple of the old guys but not many. The wounded ones ended up not coming back. And then there were a few that had been in the rear. And so, I was going out with pretty much a new platoon. My platoon—I had a whole new platoon sergeant because my other one got wounded. Gary Foster, who would have been my platoon sergeant, he never—he went back home. Lost both eardrums, they sent him home. So, he spent 5 days in the jungle. That was his entire tour. (02:12:17) Veteran: He got a Silver Star, which he deserved every bit of. I look back and I can see that his actions really helped us because if he hadn’t been there—because everybody else got—was not working well at that end. And he was the one who kept the NVA from moving closer to us on that end. So, he probably, you know, he was very instrumental in helping the platoon survive. And as it turns out, our platoon being out there where we were and being a thorn in their side was instrumental in helping the company survive. Because it turns out that the way their attack on that end of the company was broken up because they had to turn around and attack us. And so, that left a gap where the company was able to move to and reorganize. So, it’s…Like I say, you plan something? It’s just chaos. Lots of things happen. Of course, we didn’t—we only recognized that years later. We weren’t thinking about it. But we finished up at the…And I— they had a memorial service. I have no memory of that. I didn’t know they had one until a couple �65 years ago when I saw pictures. I said, “Oh, when was that?” They said, “Oh, that was July, right after the Ripcord.” I said, “Really? Where was I?” I may have been getting my tooth extracted. The guys said they went to Eagle Beach. The orders say we went to Eagle Beach. I still don’t recall that. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: But I am looking back, and I am sure there was so much mental stress that I just wasn’t registering things. You know? But then August we are back out in the field. We are working outside of Catherine. And that’s how I finished my tour. I finished—I spent another month and a half—spent a month and a half more in the field and then I turned it over to a new platoon leader. (02:14:15) Interviewer: And was that last month relatively quiet? Veteran: Yeah. We spent maybe a week outside of Catherine. One of the guys, I think it was Larry Marquardt, who did not get wounded on July 22nd in my platoon. We are out there. We got new FO because the other one was killed. And he’s putting in registration around. And he figured so, you—lots of times their first round they’ll use smoke to figure out where they are. Hey, he was sure where he was. We hadn’t moved far. We had him fire a high explosive round and it wasn’t where he was waiting for it to explode. And it came close to us and one piece came and hit Larry Marquardtt in the leg. Broke his leg. So, he went out. So, that was his story. He made it through the 22nd but he couldn’t make it through when we are not getting shot at. And then we found out that, when we tried another round, which was—they use a smoke round for the next one—and the artillery guys were all screwed up. So, then we tried it with the mortars and the mortars put it right where we expected it to be. So, what happens is sometimes the guns �66 get shifted and they don’t realign them. And so, we think that’s what had happened. So, for the rest of the time we were out there, we just used the mortars. They were paying attention to detail. And we had nobody coming after us. From there, they took—sent us over to Rakkasan. And we provided security at Rakkasan for maybe…I don’t know, maybe a month. I don’t know how long we were there, and I don’t know if we went back out in the field or not. But middle of September, I was given the rear assignment. And mine ended up being supply officer for headquarters company for 3rd brigade. And that’s how I spent…and being in the rear was nothing to me. (02:16:10) Veteran: We would get mortared, and I would just—I wouldn’t wake up. I’d sleep through it. I woke up the first time we got mortared. And the mortars—the NVA would just throw three rounds in at 2 o’clock, 3 o’clock in the morning to, you know, screw with your sleeping. And then the siren would go off and everybody would run to the bunkers. And a half hour later, the siren would go off and it was all clear and we would all go back to sleep. I did that the first time. A couple nights later, it happened again. Well, we were—I am sleeping in a hooch now. I could actually—I got a roof over me. I got netting around me and I have, you know, 5 feet of sandbags piled around the whole outside. In reality, unless the bomb—unless the mortar landed in the hooch, you weren’t going to probably get hurt. You know? So, I guess in my subconscious I just thought oh, it’s nothing. So, I slept through the next one. And the next morning my mechanics and supply clerks said, “LT, where were you last night?” I said, “What do you mean? I was sleeping.” “No, when they mortared us?” They said, “Well, you didn’t show up at the bunker.” I said, “Oh, I didn’t wake up.” They said, “What?!” And these are guys who had never been in the field. So, you know, everything was really scary to them. I said, “I didn’t wake up,” I said, “but look guys, I am probably not going to wake up when we get—this is harassment fire, and I will �67 probably just sleep through it. But if you guys go to the bunker and there’s a lot more firing going on, send somebody over to my hooch to get me up because I am in charge of unit defenses if we get the attack. If it’s more than 3 or 4 rounds, there might be an attack going on, so I need to be awake then.” And that’s…but again, it was the difference in what you expected. Interviewer: Sure. Yeah, I mean what was the sort of the atmosphere like? Or like, I mean, back there on the base rather than being out in the field? (02:18:08) Veteran: Well, the guys I worked with, they were very nervous. But because they had not seen anything. And so, you know, everything made them nervous because they had heard all the stories. But they just said they weren’t seeing the stories that, you know, it wasn’t happening to them, but they thought for sure it was going to happen any minute. The other thing is there were issues in the rear. There was pot and other drugs and there was alcohol. When I first went to the rear, the Army did not allow you to drink regular alcohol unless you were an E-6 or above. If you were—if you had—you could be 40 years old, you couldn’t buy it. You know? And the old—we all got ration cards. I think we got three quarts of liquor a month, three bottles of wine, and so many cases of beer. Well, I didn’t drink. But I had a supply sergeant who was helping me out and he drank. So, I took care of him. I gave him the liquor because he used his ration card up and he’d use mine up too. But later on, they changed the rule. They said because the Army recognized that you’re forcing the guys to find some other way, so they are going to pot. So, that’s what they did. They changed the rule, and so if you were 21 you could buy alcohol. But pot was available. But the guys that used it were just as dumb as could be because they would get caught and they’d get an Article 15, and they would get written up and they’d lose more money. And then they would complain that the first sergeant is always picking on them. Then they would smoke another joint out there in front of the hooch and get caught again. Or they would �68 end up having to burn shit all the time, you know, because the way they handled it…You know, if you—we had latrines and they were just outhouses and they had half a drum, you know, cut halfway of a 55-gallon drum. And all the, you know, all the crap went into that. And of course, they didn’t want to infect the Vietnam with our germs, so we had to burn it. We—they would mix it with fuel oil, and they’d light it up and the guys had to stir it. (02:20:26) Veteran: Terrible odor and it was considered to be a really bad job. And you usually got that— everybody, all the enlisted men, probably had an opportunity but if you were always screwing up, you always got to burn it. That means you had to go down to the latrine, pull out the full barrels, put in new ones, take them and load them up onto the mule, which is a little ATV, and then haul it out to a certain location up on the hill. And you take them off, light them up, sit there and stir them until they are all burned up and then put them back. Hell of a way to spend your day. But the drug issue was back and forth. It was more prevalent with the guys that were in the rear. Very seldom you see in the jungle the guys—other guys wouldn’t tolerate it. They didn’t want anybody—they didn’t want you drinking, you know. You know, and guys once in a while would bring a beer out there. And I am sure there was—I know there was alcohol out there here and there. But the guys were not getting looped. And they made sure they were paying attention. And I—when Lieutenant Brennan was out there for the FO, he had a bottle of whiskey with him. And you know at the end of the day, we’d be at the CP talking to the captain and he would break out and give everybody a shot. And you know, that was just—that was it, you know. But… Interviewer: Now, did—were there discipline problems out in the rear that got worse? I mean, were there racial issues or things like that? (02:22:00) Veteran: I didn’t experience any but they—I knew they were around. I was aware of them. Within the unit that I was dealing with, anybody—you know, the black guys and the white guys �69 who were in the supply unit? They were all happy to be here, thank you very much. It’s, you know, it was a good job. And so, they didn’t have issues. Some of the other guys that were not assigned strictly to my section, they had issues and they would get on the wrong side of the first sergeant. And this one guy, I talked to him a couple times. I said, “You know, what do you— what are you doing? You are just shooting yourself in the foot and you have got nothing to gain by this.” So, but you know…It’s the way it was. But there were racial issues and they got worse as time went by. By the time I left, in ’71, it was becoming more of an issue. Again, I didn’t experience it. But I didn’t have any prejudice…any obvious prejudice. I mean, there might have been subconscious, but I went through, you know, all through grade school—I’d say 20-30% of the kids were black. You know, that’s who I played ball with, that’s who I hung out with. You know, black kids, white kids, it’s all the same to me. And I didn’t realize there was racial issues until I started watching the news in the ‘60s, you know. But again, and I knew that there were people who, when I went and got into high school, there were people who, you know, didn’t like blacks and I couldn’t understand their reasoning because…you know. It was just that way. Interviewer: Now, did you ever get an R and R? Veteran: I did go on an R and R. I finally got that the—after I came out of the field, I went on R and R to Hawaii with my wife. I met her there. By that time, I had—by the time I got out of the field, it turns out I had another case of cellulitis. And it was now eating into the flesh on my shin. And so, when I came out of the field, I had a scab wound on it. I thought it was just nothing special. And I went to the—stopped at the hospital and I said, “Will you check this out?” and so they looked at it and they said, “Oh, yeah it’s a form of cellulitis.” They said, “Here.” They ripped off the scab. They didn’t bother to give me any local or anything. (02:24:19) �70 Veteran: They said, “Yeah, we got to clean that out.” And so, they said, “Hold still.” He said, “It’s going to hurt a little bit.” They said, “Probably a really good idea if you hyperventilate a bit.” I said, “Really?” he said, “Yeah.” I start hyperventilating. He starts cleaning it out, and you know, scrubbing it, and it…Ah, you know it hurts like hell. And then finally he says, “Okay.” He says, “Yeah, that looks good.” He says, “Now we got to pack it.” He says, “You might want to hyperventilate.” Oh yeah, whatever happened to Novocain? I don’t know but probably because I was an officer they didn’t want to. So, you know, so then they take this gauze and it’s about three feet of one-inch-wide gauze. And it’s like a tincture of iodine on it or something. And they take that, and they start stuffing it under the skin in this hole that is about…oh, probably two by four inches long. And they are stuffing it under the skin and finally they pack it all down and then they put a bandage on it and hook me up to an IV and I get—this time I got tetracycline and glucose. I went back there, found myself a bed, got four liters of that and then every morning they would come there, take the bandage off, pull the gauze out, look at it, say, “Oh, look! You can see the white granules there? That’s the new flesh forming. Looking good. Got to put some more gauze there.” And so, by the time I went on R and R, I still had an opening there, but it was reduced. And they said, “Well, we can, you know, to make it faster, we will do a skin graft.” I said, “Where are you going to get the skin?” “Oh, we will take it off your butt.” I said, “Oh, so I will have a sore spot here and a sore spot on my leg? Will it heal otherwise?” They said, “Yeah.” I said, “Okay, I will wait it out.” (02:26:14) Veteran: So, when I got to Hawaii with my wife, I couldn’t go in the water, you know. But we had a good time. We went to—road around Oahu. Well, it doesn’t take too long to ride around Oahu. Went to the zoo and just hung out. And it was sort of a daze for me. My wife, that was her first long, really long, trip. She flew from Jersey all the way to—essentially nonstop—to Hawaii. �71 So, she left our daughter back with my mother and her mother. And then, I got back. So, then I finished up my tour and I went out to a firebase again. We had to—we went out to Camp Carroll. I think in February they were setting that up, so I took my guys out there, the supply guys, to get things set up and we were there for maybe a week or so. But it was kind of nice and we didn’t have to go out in the sun. We had nice underground storages. So, it was pretty good. And then I finished up my tour and then…and while I was there, I had also—I went down to Da Nang on a regular basis looking for supplies. We’d go down there to salvage parts off of other trucks and stuff, so I’d take a mechanic and we’d do that. And we’d spend the night there and then we would come back. Interviewer: So, now you are actually seeing areas that have a civilian population in them and all that fun— Veteran: Yeah, and I took pictures when I—because by then, I picked up a single lens reflex camera, so I’d take that along and I’d be shooting pictures as I am going along. And I did—I got this one picture, I was going to bring it this year, I forgot. When we are going through Huế, there is a movie theater there and they had the billboard, and they had this big picture up there. And it’s all—it’s in French. And it’s…I think it said it was 12 Hours in Hell. It’s a war film. And they have a picture I think of Rex Harrison or somebody up…Anyway, it’s some guy. They got this whole big thing up there and I am thinking well this is good: here we are in the middle of a warzone, they are showing war films. So, I took a picture of that. (02:28:28) Veteran: And I blew it up into—they had the—a photo lab available for us to use. So, I ended up blowing it up like this and have all these Vietnamese in front of it and it’s 12 Hours in Hell. And I said, “Yeah, that’s kind of appropriate.” But it just amazed me that…you know, but life in Huế…they were going on with business as usual. They very seldom at that point got any activity �72 by the Viet Cong or the NVA. And that was always further out because we had, you know, secured the area pretty well; but that changed after we left. Interviewer: Right. Okay, so when do you actually leave Vietnam? Veteran: I left Vietnam around the middle of…I think it was the 15th of March. Interviewer: Of ’71, now? Veteran: Of ’71. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And then I flew from there directly to Travis Air Force Base in Washington, in Fort Lewis. And I checked out of the Army there. They…and I liked that they said, “Oh yeah, do you have any ailments? Before you leave.” You know? “If you do, you know, we will have a doctor examine you and we will treat them before we let you go.” Well, heck. You know? How is your hearing? Okay, okay, okay. You checked everything off and oh, I am out of here. Interviewer: Now, did you only have a two-year active duty obligation? Veteran: That was my only active duty obligation at that point. And then I was supposed to be on—in the Reserves for another six. And then on standby for a few years after that. Well, I got— so, I finished up there. They gave me a ticket, gave me all my money. I flew home. My family picked me up at…in Philly. And before I left, I had wrote a letter to the Fish and Game saying, “Hey, got a job? I am coming back.” And they nicely wrote me back, saying, “Well, we are not hiring right now but we will keep you in mind if something happens.” And so, then when I got home, I looked up the guy I had worked with for two summers. And he said, “Well, whenever you get back, I’d like you to work with me.” (02:30:33) �73 Veteran: And so, I got back, and I talked to him. Told him, you know…he said, “Yeah, we are not hiring right now.” He said, “Give me your phone number. If something comes up,” he said, “I will let you know.” So, I collected unemployment for 3 or 4 months and then I was entitled to it for a year. And it was pretty good money. So, I started looking for jobs in other states in wildlife. And then after about 6 months, I get a call from my old boss. He says, “You still looking for a job?” I said, “Yeah.” He says, “Well, I got a guy working for me. He is about ready to resign.” I said, “Really?” I said, “Good.” He said, “Well, I will let you know.” About two weeks after that, he says, “Alright, he’s resigned. Come on up and sign up the papers.” Well, I found out years later: the guy that was about ready to resign? He was always fighting with my eventual boss. And they would have these drag out arguments. And so, the other crew could hear them 100 yards away through the buildings, you know. And the—Bob was his name—Bob would get so pissed off at Freddie that he said, “God damn, Freddie, I quit.” And he said—and Freddie said, “Alright! Good!” and then Freddie would call Trenton up and say, “Well, Bob quit.” He said, “Do you have that in writing?” He said, “Well no.” He said, “It’s got to be in writing.” So then, Freddie made up a resignation for Bob. And the next time they got into a big, heated argument, he pulls out the resignation when Bob says, “I quit.” He says, “Oh yeah? If you do, sign that.” And Bob signed it. That’s how I got a job. Interviewer: I guess it worked a little better for you than it had for Bob? (02:32:06) Veteran: I lasted with Freddie for 12 years before we couldn’t—before I couldn’t deal with him. You know, I have more tolerance than Bob did. And Bob ended up out of Fishing and Game, but he was still working for the state. He moved over. I think he ended up in radiation and then…And I ran into Bob years later and he still liked Freddie, he said, he just couldn’t work with him. And I understood that. So, but—and so, technically that was probably going to be the �74 end of my career. But then in 1973 I got a notice from the Army to show up for two weeks of summer training in Fort Polk, Louisiana again. And it’s like…and it says, “If you do not report, you will be—you could be activated for six months.” Well, I am in—I work for the state of New Jersey. If you have any service time, they will pay, you know, for—Guard or anything else— they will pay while you are away for the two weeks. So, I got their pay and then the Army paid me at the same time. So, they flew me down there. I went to—I got to Fort Polk. I got there, come to where I was supposed to report, report in. The guy says, “Who are you?” I said, “Lee Widjeskog. I am here reporting. Here is my orders.” He looked and he said, “Oh, you are a filler.” I said, “Whatever you say.” He said, “Hell, fillers never show up.” I said, “Well, I am here.” “Okay. Well,” they said, “check in tomorrow. We will see what we have for you.” I checked in: nothing. Check in another day: nothing. So, in the meantime, I am sitting at the— down at the officer’s club, sitting by the pool reading books. And then finally, after about a week, they finally said, “Well,” they said, “how about if you give a class?” I said, “Alright.” And they said—I said, “What do you want me to give?” They said, “Well, sit in on this class that we are having today.” So, I went there, sat in on a class, took notes. They said, “Give that class tomorrow.” I came back the next day, gave the class. And then the following day I said, “Well, do you guys want me to do it again? Or what?” They said, “No, that’s good.” And so, I check in; that’s all I did. Two weeks, you know, two weeks go by. I got home. And then I didn’t hear from the Army again until they said my commitment was up years later. (02:34:20) Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you have any trouble sort of readjusting to civilian life? Other than sort of being touchy about helicopters? Veteran: Not really. Again, it was—to me it was like I didn’t think that anything special happened to me. It was just…it was just—I just assumed everything was that way. And I didn’t �75 know anybody else. I didn’t have contact with anybody else who was in the service—had been in the service during that period. So, I started working for Fish and Game because I—and I had to take tests but because I was a veteran, I’d go to the top of the list if I passed the test. But I came out high anyway, so it was sort of a moot point. So, some people knew that I was a veteran, but it was—nobody said anything one way or another. And I really didn’t think about Vietnam again until I think it was ’75 or ’76. I was out hunting in the morning. I come off of the marsh and as I am walking down this old railroad bed, two other guys come from the other way. So, we stop and talk. And I am talking to this one guy. He is asking how the hunting was and, you know, what the birds are doing. And as I am talking to him, I am looking and I am thinking damn, he’s familiar. Who is this guy? And I couldn’t place him, you know. And then finally, 10 minutes go by and he says, “Oh, see you later.” And I walked about…oh, I didn’t walk, you know, 50 steps and oh, that’s John Sherba. He was a medic for recon, and I got to know him while I was in the rear. And I had his address, but I hadn’t looked him up. And so, I turned around and I said, “John!” and he turns around, “Lee, right?” I said, “Yeah!” So, we—then we talked for about an hour, hour and a half. Well, it turns out he was one of the guys who went to the first reunion for Ripcord. And he and I would be in contact. He was suffering from—he had a lot of post traumatic stress issues. And I went to visit him at his house. He’s got a couple kids and his wife. And he’s got loaded guns literally in all the corners. Loaded pistols up on the shelf here. He was…My wife said, “He’s kind of a scary guy, isn’t he?” (02:36:23) Veteran: I said, “Well, yeah sort of, but he saw a lot of bad things.” And so, he was suffering for that. And nobody was recognizing post traumatic stress at that point. But he was adjusting. He ended up running his own business as a concrete worker, brick layer. And he adjusted to his situation. And eventually he did go in for counseling and he’s doing, you know, he’s doing as �76 well as you can expect. He’s had other issues, health issues. He ended up with hepatitis C from being in Vietnam and so he’s really on 100% disability, but he’s had heart issues. But that, you know, we are all getting old. But and then, I would talk to him every so often, see him once in a while. We’d both run into each other at the Ducks Unlimited Dinners, because we both go to— and he says, “Oh yeah, they are starting this newsletter.” And that was Chip Collins starting it up. He says, “I will send you a copy.” And he didn’t but then he’d talk about the—when we’d see him again, we’d talk about it. And then he says, “Yeah,” he says, “I have been talking to your boss, Chuck Hawkins.” He says, “He’s out there.” I said, “Really?” I said, “Say hi to him.” I didn’t have any special desire to go see anybody. But I’d talk about it. And again, it wasn’t—that was it. And then finally, he said he went to this reunion and had a good time. And there were only 12 guys. And that was up at North Jersey. And he had asked me if I wanted to go, and I had no interest. And then finally, it was in—I think in ’92—Hawkins tracks me down through the internet. And if you’ve got a name like Widjeskog, it’s pretty limited. So, and in ’92, there were very few Widjeskogs on the internet because the internet wasn’t as wide as it was. Interviewer: Right. (02:38:12) Veteran: Now there is a lot because you’ve got all these Finns that are… Interviewer: People in Finland, yeah. Veteran: Yeah. But so, Hawkins calls me up at home and he had my phone number. And so, I ended up—I wasn’t home at the time—I got a message. So, then I called him back and I was talking with him. And we—so, he said, “Yeah, you ought to think about the reunion.” So, then I started getting the newsletter. He made sure I got the newsletter. And so, then by—I think it was ’97—I finally said, “I got to go to a reunion.” And they were having one in Mobile, but I �77 couldn’t make it because I had already committed to running the Ducks Unlimited Dinner, which is the same time period. So, the following year it was going to be in Atlantic City. I said, “Well, I have to go. If it’s this close, I can’t avoid it.” And so, I went to that one and I told Chuck I was coming, and he went and ended up being there. Now, that’s where I met Frank Marshall, the general. And I was very—a lot of anticipation and I wasn’t sure this was going to be fun. And when I finally got there, I see all these old guys. I was 55 and I was old too; I forgot that you know. And there was only about 25 or 30 guys there. And—but you know, having—I worked with the public a lot, so I just treated it as, you know, I introduced myself and just chat them up and I met, you know…So, I started talking to guys. And I found out that really, it was very comfortable. And from then on, I have gone to every one since. Interviewer: Well, you have taken kind of a very important role in helping run the show. Veteran: Well, and that came just because…again, I was always doing these things like I did Ducks Unlimited, I was committee chairman for…you know, 30 years. And I was also doing that for the Turkey Federation for another 20 years at the same time. You know, and then I—so, I was used to organizing the events and putting them on. And so, I was going to these and you know, I felt kind of guilty. I am not used to just sitting around. And then, Fred said, “Well, you know, I really need—I am going to need somebody to take over.” He said, “I just can’t do this.” And so, I volunteered. I said, “Well, I’ll take it over.” And at that time, Frankie had taken over the—Frank Marshall had taken over the newsletter because Chuck did not have enough time to do it anymore. And he was being criticized by some: “Ah, you don’t get it out fast enough.” And so, and that really—those are things that keep everything operating. (02:40:45) Interviewer: Right. �78 Veteran: But—and the book had come out too. So, it’s about 2006 and Fred said, “Well, here’s what you got to do: you do this and do this, and you book this way to figure out where you are going to be.” He said, “Well, I have got this—I got the hotel set up for the next couple years and we will see about—you can take that over.” And then he never relinquished that portion of it. He really liked doing that. He did not like doing the day-to-day stuff with the reunion when people came in, stuff like that. Which I had no problem with it. My wife—I am lucky because, you know, she likes to do it. She is willing to do all this stuff with me. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: I mean, it is—it makes it really easy. And she did the same thing with me at Ducks Unlimited. And you know, she’s the same woman that I married before I went to ‘Nam. So, there’s a few of us that surprisingly that we’ve— Interviewer: Yeah, messing up that stereotype. Veteran: Yeah. I know. It’s, you know…and Gary Foster? Same thing. He and his wife were married before he went to Vietnam. And Fred Gilbert. More and more, I find these guys. Interviewer: Yeah. Well, I have encountered a fair number just across the different areas and, with that kind of thing. So— Veteran: Yeah. And people do get divorced. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And you know—and I—a bunch of guys worked for me when I was at Fish and Game and they never went to ‘Nam and they have all been divorced too. So, there’s other—there’s— you know, ‘Nam was not to blame. It might have been auxiliary, but it was—the marriage was �79 probably going to go down anyway. It just might have got down a little faster. But…and like I said, I have always been very happy. The fact that, you know, I picked the right woman. And she puts up with me; I couldn’t ask for anything better. So, and that’s how I ended up doing the reunion. And I plan to do it as long as I am physically able to. (02:42:31) Interviewer: Well, you do a really good job, and your wife does too. And I certainly appreciate being able to come to these things. And if you are watching this and he’s got a name tag just below where the camera is, Ripcord Reunion, and that is where we are today as we are recording this. I’d like just to close here by thanking you for taking the time out of your regular duties to come in and talk to me. Veteran: Well, I appreciate it. I hope it helps. Interviewer: It certainly will. (02:42:55) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WidjeskogL1682V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Widjeskog, Lee Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-10 Title A name given to the resource Widjeskog, Lee (Interview transcript and video), 2014 Description An account of the resource Lee Widjeskog was born in Bridgeton, New Jersey and grew up in that area, finishing high school in 1964. He attended Colorado State University and took ROTC training, and received his commission in the Army in 1969. He took infantry training at Fort Benning, Georgia and jungle training in Panama, and went to Vietnam in April, 1970. He became a platoon leader in A Company, 2nd Battalion, 506th Regiment, 101st Airborne Division. His unit patrolled the area near Firebase Ripcord, and was involved in heavy fighting on July 22, when Widjeskog's platoon was separated from the rest of the company for several hours, and the company then had to spend the night in the field behind before being evacuated. For the rest of the summer he operated in the field around Firebase Katherine and Firebase Rakkasan until he was reassigned to the rear in mid-September 1970. He served as the supply officer for Headquarters Company of the 3rd Brigade until he left Vietnam on March 15, 1971. He has been an active member of the Ripcord Association for over twenty years, and he and his wife currently organize the annual reunions. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f9c8322df25bb558bf6c3bf8dc7d1673.mp4 6648b7ec991abcbcb556502f8985b497 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bb236fb3bb3b04f8ad74394f3f0ae7db.pdf d05a6ec873757ff7ba89c090a738ab23 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Dr. Richard Wierenga (25:01) (00:10) Introduction: • Born in Grand Rapids, Michigan. (04:30) Air Force: • Joined the Air Force after two years of college. • Basic training was in New York. • Flew F-86, Sabrejet airplanes. • Became an officer. • Remained stateside during Korean War. (12:00) After service: • Became a state champion in three cushions Billiards. • Went to school to become a dentist, one semester cost only twenty dollars. • Married while in the service, had 3 children. • Dentistry school was four years. • Contracted Multiple Sclerosis after working for 7 years. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WierengaR Title A name given to the resource Wierenga, Richard (Interview outline and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Wierenga, Richard Description An account of the resource Dr. Richard Wierenga, of Grand Rapids, Michigan, served in the United States Air Force during the Korean War. He joined the Air Force after two years of college and became a pilot. He was never sent overseas, but remained stationed in the United States. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer) Collins, Carol (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Air Force Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-06-29 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b4349b7c202e0b5be61c50a1dcc8dc47.pdf 4bf4d9cdb1c86df90164a14815fdc9a4 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Nicholas Wieringa Vietnam War 6 minutes 17 seconds (00:00:05) -Born on December 10th 1948. -Part of the Army infantry as a specialist 4th class. -Born in Grand Rapids. -Nine siblings all lived on a dairy farm. -Went to barbers school. -Drafted about three months after finishing barber school. -One brother was a cook in Colorado for the Army. -Another brother was a Russian translator stationed in Greece. -Learned to adapt to military life well. -Served basic training in Fort Knox, Kentucky. -Served AIT training at Fort Louis, Washington. -In Vietnam the War was hectic. -18 firefights during the year he was there. (00:03:00) -On one occasion after a violent battle they ended up having to pick up the body parts. -Difficult but eventually get used to such things. -Had one long lasting friendship from the military, a friend from St. Thomas. -Communication with family was all done through the mail. -No real recreational time in Vietnam. -Typically sent out on patrol for 21 days at a time. -After returning to the US finished his time at Fort Knox. -Returned to the US on a plane. -Family and friends were supportive once he returned the general public less so. -Didn’t have significant difficulty returning to his civilian lifestyle. -His military experience made him appreciate what he has, friends and family. -Enabled him to value the life that he has. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_WieringaN1850V Title A name given to the resource Wieringa, Nicholas J (Interview outline), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-05-24 Description An account of the resource Nicholas Wieringa was born in 1948 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He was part of the Army infantry as a specialist 4th class. At Fort Knox, Kentucky he undertook basic training, and then had AIT training at Fort Louis, Washington. Nicholas was deployed to Vietnam at an especially hectic time of the War during which 18 firefights broke out. After his return to the US he served the remainder of his enlistment at Fort Knox before being discharged. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Wieringa, Nicholas J. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Skinner, Jordyn (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. ArmyOral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fa934ddac1ce763d03474b38ea9de7d4.mp4 ea81a77ffef742b6280e5ee2f30db527 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/190078ae1331571130ddb8f44f0c5407.pdf 883e52c69b58e7aafc1e6740269f9302 PDF Text Text GVSU Veteran’s History Project Operation Iraqi Freedom Christopher Wiers Interview Total Time: 21:08               (00:25) Enlisted when he was a junior in high school (00:44) Boot camp was eye-opening for him o Physical and mental challenge (1:40) While he was in Iraq, during the first year, they built bases (2:00) The convoy rolled out at 6 am; had to get up at 4:30 to prepare o They went to get the Iraqi interpreter o Then went to motor pool for the morning formation to hear what the company commander wanted them to do that day o Test-fired weapons o Remembers giving village kids treats like muffins and Gatorade (4:07) Worked 16-17 hour days for 7 days a week under extremely hot weather conditions (4:30) They didn’t run into civilians often, but mostly they were happy to see them o At first the kids were scared, but not after awhile (5:40) When they first arrived, they had to clean and rewire their barracks (6:00) Mentions different food they had o First Sunday of the month they had lobster and steak (7:40) The second time he was in Iraq, he did convoy security o 4 Humvees in their security convoy o If they found anything, they would get out and clear it (8:45) Enjoyed serving; didn’t ever feel scared (8:55) There was a time when he was injured after they hit an IED o They hit an IED that was made of mortar rounds and a rocket o It was set up to take out a tank or troop carrier (10:00) Describes some injuries of his friends due to the IED (10:40) When he was ejected from the Humvee during the explosion, he had a bad brain injury, shrapnel in his face and eye, broken left arm, shrapnel in legs and 1st and 2nd degree burns on one side o Doctors in Iraq weren’t aware of the extent of his injuries o Brain injury affected him for a while; short term memory loss o Still has small memory problems but has greatly improved (12:30) Had a hard time adjusting to civilian life knowing his friends were still in Iraq �  (12:55) Says that the military changed his outlook on life (13:30) Showed some Pepsi cans from Iraq and his honorable discharge certificate from the Marines o NCO papers o Purple Heart o Pictures, memorabilia, videos, etc. o (continues until the end of the video) o One of the videos included footage just two hours before the crash occurred � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WiersC1008V Title A name given to the resource Wiers, Christopher (Interview outline and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Wiers, Christopher Description An account of the resource Christopher Wiers enlisted in the Marine Corps before graduating high school. The time he served was from 2002 – 2006. During his second tour in Iraq, he worked in convoy security. They would clear explosives when they were detected. Mr. Wiers was involved in an IED explosion accident and suffered brain damage along with other injuries. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Rodriguez, Nicole (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Iraq War, 2003-2011--Personal narratives, American United States. Marine Corps Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-06-03 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d375d7d7595432b67bfaf14e5b9bed12.m4v 0bdb96f4db22b96a573d3cb480cea279 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d1caaf22e80bf10c9cfa835782a733b6.m4v 138164e952aff99e1add3eb7429f509d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/686a607d0ed1513441d09963e55f4e8f.pdf 777da7229b178286a9f4f5d020424a64 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Ed Wietecha Vietnam War Part 1 – 49 minutes 37 seconds (00:00:47) Early Life -Born in Pottsville, Pennsylvania in 1945 -Mother was living with her parents while father served in North Atlantic Ocean -Almost all of his uncles served in the military during World War II -Father had a career in the Navy -Served in China prior to, and during the Japanese invasion in 1937 -Father was reassigned to Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois after the war -Grew up in Waukegan, Illinois -Graduated from high school in 1963 (initially says 1967, but corrects himself later) (00:02:21) Vietnam War, College, and Navy Reserve Officers' Training Corps (ROTC) -American presence in Vietnam was gaining attention in 1963 -He wanted to join the Marines and go through Platoon Leader Class -Friends at the University of Illinois suggested he join the Navy ROTC -He decided he'd do that, get commissioned, and join the Marines as an officer -Would still go through Basic School and get sorted for his specialization -Vietnam War accelerated during his time in college -Marines landed in Da Nang in 1965 followed shortly thereafter by the Army -Paid a lot of attention to the war -Major topic of discussion every week -Had classmates fighting in Vietnam -One classmate, a year older than him, was killed in action in Vietnam -Received training between junior and senior year of college -Weeding out men who couldn't physically handle military service -Lasted six weeks -He did well in class -Offered regular commission as opposed to a reserve commission -Reserve officer served for three years -Regular officer served for four years -Able to stay in even if the military downsized -Graduated and received his commission in 1967 (00:06:58) The Basic School -Sent to Marine Corps Base Quantico, Virginia for the Basic School -Got married in late August 1967 -Married for 48 years as of the time of the interview -He was the most likely to get killed in action -Wife accepted it -Did a lot of physical training -Taught about weapons and tactics -Fired pistols, rifles, flamethrowers, bazookas, anti-tank weapons, and machine guns -Basically, every weapon used by any unit equal to battalion or smaller -Learned how to lead a fire team, a squad, and a platoon -Also learned about tactics used for a company �-Mostly focused on platoon leadership -Excellent training -In Vietnam he was able to react without thinking -Trained by veterans from the Vietnam War -Taught how to lead in Vietnam, but how to lead in other situations outside of Vietnam -Emphasis on jungle combat, but also on urban warfare -The Basic School lasted five months (00:10:43) Artillery Training -Sent to Fort Sill, Oklahoma for Artillery Training -Main artillery training installation for Army personnel and Marine officers -Main unit was an artillery battery -Consisted of three components: guns, fire direction center, and forward observer -Fire direction center took in coordinates and translated it for gun crews -Forward observer recorded coordinates -Learned how to adjust coordinates as a forward observer -Learned how to do calculations in the fire direction center -Learned how to operate the artillery guns -Trained with the 105mm and 155mm howitzers -Lived off-base with his wife in an apartment -Conducted live-fire exercises -Had minimal contact with the civilian community -Focused on training -Lasted four or five months (00:15:14) Deployment to Vietnam -Flew out of Chicago on April 5, 1968, the day after Martin Luther King Jr.'s assassination -Shortly after the Tet Offensive in late January and early February 1968 -Resigned to it -Flew out of California -Stopped in Okinawa en route to refuel -Helped inventory on armory for a few days (00:16:46) Arrival in Vietnam -Landed in Da Nang, South Vietnam -Hot and it stank because of the rice paddies -Told he'd be sent north to join an amphibious task force -Traveled with a warrant officer who gathered intelligence in local communities -Taken to Phu Bai -Didn't have any weapons -Landed at a steep descent to avoid mortars -Stayed in Phu Bai for a few days -Went into Dong Ha -He was eating in a restaurant while the warrant officer talked to the owner -Told Ed they needed to leave and get back to base -Had been informed a major attack was being planned in the area -That night, he saw fighting in the hills (00:20:07) Joining Whiskey Battery -Battalion was ashore -Split into battalion forward and battalion rear -Battalion forward was in combat, and battalion rear carried out administrative duties -He was sent to Direct Support Battery �-Told to pick up combat gear -Bloody, damaged, and had bullet holes in helmets -Gear gathered from the wounded or the dead -Drove home the reality that he was in a combat zone -Assigned to Whiskey Battery in BLT 3/1 (Battalion Landing Team 3rd Battalion 1st Marines) -Infantry battalion with artillery unit and tanks -Task force that operated up and down the coast -Went ashore during action, then returned to ship when things calmed down -Battalion had been fighting along the demilitarized zone (DMZ) since the Tet Offensive -Driven out to the unit -Went on the route the French had used in the 1940s and 1950s and had been destroyed -Joined Whiskey Battery at Camp Carroll near Cam Lo -Other lieutenants and the company commander greeted him -Brought him to the fire direction center -He was the lieutenant with the least experience -Minimal amount of combat at the time -Whiskey Battery was a support battery -Had a 4.2 inch mortar mounted a 75mm howitzer carriage -Capable of being transported by helicopter to the field if necessary -Stayed at Camp Carroll for a few weeks (00:26:23) Operating out of Ca Lu -Moved west to Ca Lu Combat Base, east of Khe Sanh -Tasked with salvaging ammunition and occasionally firing support for infantry in the field -Heard firefights a kilometer away from his position -Sometimes bullets flew over his head, but they didn't take rocket fire like at Camp Carroll -Did Fire Direction Center work -Mostly fired harassment & interdiction fire -Firing a specified number of rounds, at random coordinates, at a specified time -Never knew if they hit anything, but the point was to scare off enemy troops (00:28:07) Fire Missions near Da Nang -Returned to Da Nang to join the 2nd Battalion 11th Marines -Stopped en route to conduct fire missions in support of the infantry -Fired multiple missions simultaneously -Breach of protocol, but necessary -Had constant communication with the forward observer in the field -Fired about 300 meters in front of the infantry -Danger close is 600 meters or less -Had more error with the 4.2 inch mortar as opposed to the traditional howitzers -Meant that rounds spent more time in the air and it could alter their trajectory -Meant that rounds were usually 100 meters off of their intended target -Infantry didn't like calling in artillery from Whiskey Battery -4.2in was too inaccurate, wasn't a commentary on the men in the unit -Usually used the 4.2in mortar to clear landing zones before the infantry landed -It was hot and boring, most of the time -Spent the days building up fortifications and occasionally shooting fire missions -Spent four months in the area around Da Nang (00:33:25) Going into the Field Pt. 1 -He complained about the lack of action and about wanting to be a forward observer -Battalion commander said that if he went into the field, and liked it, he could stay �(00:34:15) Daily Routine in Da Nang -Days started by getting up, getting new intelligence, and inspecting the guns -After that he ate breakfast and met with his gun crews -Cleaned guns and filled sandbags -Sent men out for work details, policed the area, and fired a mission or two -He figured out a way to stabilize the mortars so they didn't slide around and affect accuracy -Filled tires with rocks and put those tires under the mortars which fixed the problem (00:36:58) Morale & Discipline Problems -Infantry didn't ask for support from the 4.2 inch guns, which negatively impacted the crews' morale -Felt like they were just going through the motions and just waiting to go home -Prior to this, the men felt like they had a mission and a purpose -Didn't have any issues with drugs or alcohol abuse, at least not when he was there -Didn't notice any racial tensions, at least none that were apparent -No insubordination -Men listened to orders and followed them (00:38:16) Vietnamese Civilians -Some Vietnamese civilians were used for construction projects on base -Had villages outside of the perimeter -Never made contact with each other -Separated by barbed wire and an abandoned French minefield -He and a few other men went beyond the wire to pull weeds -One of the men noticed that the area had been seeded with antipersonnel mines -Carefully worked their way back to base -Fortunately, nobody got hurt or killed -Angry that no one warned them about the presence of landmines (00:39:36) Going into the Field Pt. 2 -New lieutenant came into the unit and was given the forward observer position -Ed thought he would get the forward observer position and be replaced by the new lieutenant -New lieutenant was wounded, and Ed became the new forward observer -Worked with men that had done multiple tours in Vietnam and had experience -Got shot at the first day in the field -Different atmosphere -Remembers eating, communal-style, out of a can of pears -Marched 13 kilometers the second night -Took mortar fire for the first time in the field -Passed a small, Vietnamese village -Saw only women and children -Ordered to put artillery fire on the village -He radioed in the coordinates, and fortunately, the mission didn't go through -Had the same experience two more times -Saw children riding on water buffaloes, and one officer ordered him to fire -He refused, and his commanding officer supported his decision -Went on a few minor operations and conducted a few sweeps -Went into the mountains -Had to be medically evacuated because his boots were doing so much damage to his feet (00:44:12) Recon Outpost -He was assigned to a recon outpost for two weeks where he could direct artillery while his feet healed -Fired on Viet Cong troops and taught the recon soldiers how to fire the artillery -Recon commander wanted him at the outpost if he ever transferred to the infantry �(00:45:12) Going into the Field Pt. 3 -Went back into the field after his feet recovered -During one mission a recon squad (eight men) was pinned down and needed artillery support -Took 25 minutes for the first artillery rounds to land on target -He reported the error to his regimental commander as soon as he could -Felt bad, because the battalion commander was at fault -Felt it needed to be addressed -Battalion commander took it maturely (00:46:47) Operation Meade River -Started a major operation in an area with a railroad line, a road, and two rivers -A four kilometer by six kilometer area surrounded by 13 battalions -He went in with the first wave -One of the helicopters in the subsequent wave got shot down -His commander was severely burned -A piece of fuselage hit him -He was medically evacuated, but was returned to the field -Had unknown hip and spine problems as a result of not being treated -Completed the operation -Saw his first napalm victims -Charred, unrecognizable, and inhuman corpses -Almost got hit by their own napalm -Radioman told the pilot to abort the drop just in time Part 2 – 43 minutes 34 seconds (00:00:03) Operation Meade River -New company commander acted professionally -Always wore his body armor in the field -Got helicoptered out of the field after being injured by the helicopter crash -Remembers their front line taking artillery and machine gun fire -Assaulted the tree line and got 15 meters inside the line when the Vietnamese opened fire -He responded by directing artillery fire on the enemy machine gun positions -Had 105mm, 155mm, and 8 inch howitzers at his disposal -Someone requested 4.2 inch mortar fire -Battery wanted to put a round 100 yards in front of his position -Once the first round hit they would continue to adjust fire toward the enemy -Ed called in the 105mm howitzers instead because they were more accurate -One Marine went down, so Ed called in artillery on the enemy position and as they retreated -Called in 200 rounds of artillery which resulted in 11 confirmed enemy dead -During the operation he only knew the progress of that operation, but not the war at large (00:05:38) Transfer to 1st Recon Battalion -He returned to his battery and was transferred to 1st Recon Battalion and joined a recon platoon -Sent out patrols of six to eight men to look for enemy -Usually consisted of a lieutenant or sergeant, a medic or corpsman, a radioman, and riflemen -Walked four kilometers over the course of a few days, then got extracted -Objective was to find the enemy then call in artillery or airstrikes (00:07:08) Recon Patrols -On his first recon patrol they were walking up a hill when a rock hit the corpsman �-Dislocated his shoulder and he had to be evacuated from the field -On his second patrol the Viet Cong ambushed them -Bullet went straight across his chest, cutting open his shirt and grazing him -Training kicked in and they immediately returned fire -One Marine got hit and went down -The remaining Marines provided suppressing fire while a helicopter came in -Leapfrogged back to the landing zone (00:09:54) Observation Posts -Sent to fixed observation posts where he adjusted artillery fire -Also taught the Marines at the posts how to better adjust artillery fire -Spent the majority of the rest of his tour on observation posts -Knew how to direct accurate artillery fire -Observation posts were manned by 15 men and sparse -Established in the middle of nowhere, foxholes, barbed wire, and maybe a bunker -Observation posts got attacked by enemy forces -At one observation post they lost a man after Ed left -At another post, half of the squad was killed, but they killed 400 enemy troops (00:13:46) Enemy Contact -Spent five months with the 1st Recon Battalion -Enemy contact never slowed down during those five months and they were always busy -1968 was a busy year after the Tet Offensive in late January -High casualty rates and frequent contact with the enemy -Always understrength during 1968 -If a company lost 50% of its men the unit was considered to be in good shape (00:15:20) R&R in Hawaii -Went to Hawaii for R&R to see his wife -Wife was concerned about his safety after she saw his wounds -Spent a week in Hawaii -Checked out of the hotel on Christmas Eve 1968 -Landed in Vietnam on December 26, 1968 (00:17:34) Vietnamese Civilians -They were in the middle of a “free fire zone” (all Vietnamese persons were considered fair targets) -He was in command of one square kilometer -There were Vietnamese civilians in the free fire zone that had been wounded by artillery fire -Called in helicopters to evacuate the Vietnamese civilians to a local hospital -An observation officer flew over the free fire zone and saw the Vietnamese civilians -Wanted artillery fire called in on the Vietnamese -Ed refused to call in a strike on civilians -If the officer pressed the issue Ed would order his men to fire on the plane -He returned to battalion headquarters and expected punishment for insubordination -Nothing happened (00:20:44) Living Conditions in Vietnam -He remembers being at a place called Go Noi Island -He was sitting in a hut and watched a huge snake come in and go out -Drank a lot of coffee in Vietnam, and there were always flies -For a while he would pick the flies out of his coffee before he drank it -He eventually got so tired that he drank the coffee with the flies in it -At night he'd cut a slit trench one foot deep and long enough that he could lay down in it -Put a poncho over the trench to keep the rain out with his rifle next to him �-Remembers the Vietnamese attacked their position one night -He woke up long enough to ask if they needed artillery then fell back asleep (00:24:08) Rear Duty in Da Nang -Near the end of his tour he became the company executive officer -Stationed at the company area in the rear -Slept in cots -He was stationed outside of Da Nang near division headquarters -Went for daily runs on “Freedom Road” -Rarely left the base -Went to the beach one Sunday to cook up some steaks -En route the Vietnamese attacked and blew up an ammunition dump -Civilians and troops panicked while Ed and his friends were stuck in the crowd -Da Nang was a primitive area -Most of the people lived in cardboard and tin shacks on the side of the road -Very minimal contact with civilians in Da Nang (00:27:32) Leaving Vietnam -Left Vietnam in spring 1969 -Stopped in Okinawa for a few days and bought a stereo -Landed in Los Angeles then flew to Chicago -Mother-in-law or sister-in-law picked him up at the airport -Wife completed her senior year of college when he got back from Vietnam -Flew home in his uniform and didn't experience any hostility -Had three more years of service to complete before getting discharged -Took some leave with his wife at the University of Illinois before resuming service (00:30:00) Stationed at Fort Sill & End of Service -His next duty station was at Fort Sill, Oklahoma -Lived in the bachelor's quarters until his wife joined him -They lived in base housing for married couples then moved into the town near Fort Sill -Got involved with one of the Catholic churches in town and taught religion classes -Befriended the priest -Spoke on behalf of the priest who was a conscientious objector -Served as the tactics instructor at Fort Sill -Taught servicemen how to set up an artillery battery -Two weeks of classroom work -One week of fieldwork -Moving artillery pieces then establish batteries -Did that for two years -Rewrote the Army doctrine on how to defend an artillery battery -Approved by the Pentagon -Spent his third year at Fort Sill working on educational material and working as a testing instructor -Developed test items and analyzed test items -During his third year he also served as a technical adviser and a scout for artillery field exercises -At the end of his Marines enlistment the Army offered him a branch transfer -He would be able to retain his rank and stay at Fort Sill, but he wanted to go back to college (00:36:59) Life after Service -Went back to Illinois for graduate school -Studied the psychology of human learning -Eventually got a master's degree in social work and worked as a teacher and as a therapist -In Grand Rapids he did personnel work for various companies �-Selection, assessment, safety, wage compensation, etc. (00:38:21) Reflections on Service -Has a lot of guilt -Dealt with a lot of PTSD -Realized that he's not a pacifist, but we can't go to war unless there's a purpose and a plan -His PTSD has significantly affected his life and his family's life -He has worked on it and been able to deal with it -Feels that he was a good officer -Saved American lives and Vietnamese lives, and he's proud of that -Conversely, he is proud of the enemy troops he killed -His time in the Marines taught him that he was capable of teaching and enjoyed it too -Suffered from PTSD related nightmares for 15 years after he came back from Vietnam � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_WietechaE1913V Title A name given to the resource Wietecha, Edward J (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-12-17 Description An account of the resource Ed Wietecha was born in Pottsville, Pennsylvania in 1945. He attended the University of Illinois and was part of the Navy Reserve Officers' Training Corps. He graduated and was commissioned as an officer in the Marines in 1967. He attended Basic School at Marine Corps Base Quantico, Virginia, and received Artillery Training at Fort Sill, Oklahoma. He was deployed to Vietnam on April 5, 1968, and arrived at Da Nang. He first joined Whiskey Battery in BLT 3/1 (Battalion Landing Team, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines Regiment). They operated out of Camp Carroll for a few weeks then moved to Ca Lu Combat Base. He, and the rest of the unit, returned to Da Nang and joined the 2nd Battalion of the 11th Marines Regiment where he operated for four months. He went into the field as a forward observer and due to a foot injury briefly served at a recon outpost. He returned to the field as a forward observer during Operation Meade River (November 20, 1968 to December 9, 1968). After Operation Meade River he joined the 1st Recon Battalion and went on reconnaissance missions and guided artillery at observation posts. Near the end of his tour he served as the company executive officer in Da Nang. He left Vietnam in spring 1969 and spent the three remaining years of his enlistment at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, serving as an artillery instructor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Wietecha, Edward J. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Marine Corps Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/33ad5f045f95a10c1a16334a585e324a.mp4 e787edd9b920ffdd5a6e77c3446db4f5 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c2e4c781d2b3425148c97231804f5bcf.pdf 6f3bc6ec20c6dcb2f71576438dcd9fed PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II and Korea Interviewee: Ed Wikander Length of Interview: 00:38:30 Background  He was born in Detroit in 1915.  His father worked as an engineer over in Detroit.  He and his brother were separated when he was 2, when his mother moved to Muskegon.  He went to Muskegon High School and graduated in 1934.  During the Depression things were bad for his mom and her three kids, so he joined the Navy.  He joined the Navy because he wanted to die where it was nice and wet, not in a dirty hole.  She did not have much to say as he was 19 and could join himself.  So in 1934, he joined the Navy. He went to Detroit to take the exam. He was one of 16 of 72 that were taken that day. He received a letter in July of 1935 stating that if he still wanted to join the Navy he needed to go to Detroit.  Before he joined he worked at a wire company. Training (2:51)       He would train at Norfolk, Virginia. He would hitchhike to Detroit and from there take a train to Norfolk. That was the first long train trip he had taken. The trip itself would last overnight, and he would get there the next day. It was a regular passenger train, and there were only the 16 men who had made it through Detroit that were going to boot camp. While he was in boot camp he did a lot of marching and discipline while he was there. He would adjust fairly well to those conditions. From there he went to aviation school in San Diego. He ended up being a battleship man. San Diego and Active Duty (4:13)       He would go to Aviation School there. It would be here that he learned how to use torpedoes and bombs for planes. He worked aboard an aircraft carrier and ended up staying there to work. He would be assigned to the USS Tennessee. The Tennessee was a battleship built during World War I. She was in Pearl Harbor while it was attacked. He had just left the Tennessee in July of 1945 [1941]. �                           When he first saw the ship, he was not so impressed. He had heard that the battleship was huge, but it seemed quite small compared to the other ships sitting at the docks. He had to leave his Division for two days. At that time, he had only been out to sea once, while he was in Norfolk. He would take a ship to San Diego, going through the Panama Canal. He caught hell for taking pictures of the place. While he was on the Tennessee, he cleaned decks and painted things, just regular seaman duty. He would take long trips while serving on the Tennessee. One time, they had crossed the Equator to get to some place, and they had a celebration when they crossed the equator. New guys were called “pollywogs” because they had not crossed the equator before, and they had a sort of special thing they did for the new sailors on the ship. There were a lot of new guys on the ship because of what was happening in the war. He got a certificate to prove he was a shellback, so he did not have to do that again. He would travel from Long Beach to New York, again through the Panama Canal. He would go back through again and go to Seattle. There the ship would have an overhaul. While the ship was getting an overhaul, he would still be there, working and cleaning. He got shore leave anytime in the afternoon, 1600. When the guys got to shore, they would go to a movie or grab a couple beers, or even visit some people, if they knew any. He would travel to Pearl Harbor in 1935 or ’36. Before the war, he thought Pearl Harbor/ Hawaii were a place of beauty.(9:45) It was very busy there; a lot of political ongoing. When he got to Pearl Harbor, he would get some R&R before leaving. While he was there, there were many different ships, aircraft carriers, and other military tools that were gathering in Pearl Harbor. He knew that there was something suspicious going on because there were Japanese aircraft coming and going from Tokyo. They were there with other carriers, including the California, the Colorado and the Utah. He would meet his wife there; this would be December 1941, just after he got out of the Navy. During his time on the Tennessee he did not go to any other islands or places. Later on in his career, he would go to Korea. When he first got to Pearl Harbor, he did not know where the oil tankers were, because they were so well camouflaged. Life on a battleship was just like living in a city. You could literally live on it. He would leave the Navy in 1941 to take care of his mother, as she was ill. He was thinking pretty strongly about staying in the Navy. If you could get through those first couple years, you could make it through anything. But due to his mother, he left. So he had left the Navy and he thought he was done, but after the bombing of Pearl Harbor, he would receive his draft notice in early1942. Back into the Fray (15:55) �          Once he was called back into duty, he would report to Great Lakes, Chicago. He would stay there for about two weeks before being sent out to a small base near San Francisco. No one had ever heard of the place. There, he would help marines learn amphibious beaching. He would bring the crews up and lay them on the beach. He would do this for a while. He liked the training, he was his own boss. It was interesting work. He was not married at the time, but he had met her earlier, in 1941. He would go right out from there, and was not allowed to leave to go home. Transported by the USS Seawolf, a liberty ship, he would go to Tinian. 59 Days is what it took to get over there. They would often zigzag, so it took so long. He would travel with a convoy. There were no problems with submarines on the way out there and they did stop in Pearl Harbor before getting to Tinian. Pearl Harbor was very different from when he last saw it. The Tennessee was still there, as it had been repaired. They stayed there for two days before heading out to Tinian. Tinian (21:20)           Tinian looked like a wreck. The American military that was there had really taken over the place and there were tanks everywhere. His job in Tinian would be to build a new 1,000 bed hospital. Men would stop by there to get treatment before heading back to Pearl Harbor. He was in charge of the seaman’s guard and the laundry. While he was there, he and the others would get news of political talks going on back home to try to find peace with the Japanese. The US military would even move more of its fleet in California to Pearl Harbor to intimidate the Japanese. It was hot there, but it was just another place for him. There were lots of Japanese left, who were put to picking up garbage. These prisoners looked like any other Japanese to him. He was on Tinian when the war ended. The bomb dropped on August 5, and they all thought that would bring an end to the war. He was one of the first ones to actually leave Tinian, due to his time served from ’35-’41. It was credited to his total time there. He would go home on a ship and it would take a straight line home, taking much less time. Korea (27:20)       When he got back the states, he went back to his job working with cranes. He would get married in 1946. He would work there for forty years. He was working there when the Korean War started and was drafted into that war as well. He was drafted in 1951. He would go straight to the ship this time. �                He would arrive in San Francisco and go straight to Saipan, Korea. He would take the USS Prairie to Korea; it was a destroyer. He would work on the ship as a deck hand. When he headed out to Korea, he would retain his rank of Boatswain 2nd Class. During his time in Korea he would be promoted to 1st class. While he was on the ship he had 18-20 men working under him. By this time, there had been some integration of black in the army, but most kept to them. They would land in Sasebo, Japan. He would live on the ship, but go on shore often. It would be here that he would learn to appreciate where he lived. He looked at how the people there lived and especially took notice of the sewage that filled Tokyo Bay. He did not do much for site seeing, as he was told not to wander around too much. He would visit Yokohama and other cities, but not Tokyo. Some people did get in trouble while they stayed there. He did not go to Korea at all, but he just stayed in Japan (34:20) He did not really pay much attention to what was going on in the war. Instead he just did as he was told and waited for the time to pass. Although he was a WWII veteran, he did not pay attention to see if there were any other ones there. In 1951, he would finish his tour and go home. They were trying very much to get him to stay, promising position and money. Post Duty (36:00)        The trip from Japan two about two weeks. He would get home September 1951. After he was discharged, he would go back home to his family and take up his work where he left off. His time spent in the Navy taught him a lot of things, including an appreciation of what he had here. He says that if you thing you have it bad, go to a different country and you will change your mind. It is very different! He learned how to work with people from 1935 on. If he could have done it over again, he would have. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WikanderE Title A name given to the resource Wikander, Ed (Interview outline and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Wikander, Ed Description An account of the resource Ed Wikander joined the Navy in 1934 and served as a seaman on board the battleship USS Tennessee until leaving the Navy in the middle of 1941. After Pearl Harbor, he was drafted back into the Navy, and spent about two years working at a Marine base in California before being sent to Tinian to help build a hospital. He was called up again for Korea, and served on a destroyer based in Japan. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Navy World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-10-18 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/25ebcff65a7aaba186b6abfadfca27a2.jpg a5d97027d45e3f6a3d0b4333815ee80c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert H. Merrill photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1909/1950 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-222 Description An account of the resource Photographs, negatives, and lantern slides digitized from the papers of engineer and archaeologist Robert H. Merrill. A Grand Rapids native, Merrill held an accomplished career as a civil engineer. He founded the company Spooner & Merrill, which held offices in Grand Rapids and Chicago. From 1919-1921, Merrill lived in China, working as Assistant Principal Engineer on a reconstruction of the Grand Canal - the oldest and longest canal system in the world. Merrill became fascinated by archaeology, and among other projects, he traveled to the Uxmal Pyramids in Yucatan, Mexico, with a research expedition from Tulane University. Merrill's photo collection includes images of his travels and projects, friends and family. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Merrill_EastmanAlbum_1_1909_040 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1909-07-09 Title A name given to the resource Wikwemikong Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of Wikwemikong shoreline, Ontario. Subject The topic of the resource Ontario Wikwemikong (Ont.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/72e11985306e23670d9f046d6b665757.jpg 50003bf6ab3a50f8f3bbb35a23121e7b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Decorated Publishers' Bindings Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Pictorial bindings Description An account of the resource From the early 1870s to roughly 1930, many publishers issued their commercial book covers with a remarkable variety of graphic designs and illustrations. This sixty-year period saw many artists and designers contributing to this art form. While some can be identified from their style or initials, others remain unknown. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Michigan Novels Collection Regional Historical Collection Lincoln and the Civil War Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-08-30 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>, <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-01 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source Michigan Novels Collection. PS3505.O5593 W54 1904 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-01_Bindings0014 Title A name given to the resource Wilby's Dan Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Falls, C.B. (Charles Buckles) (Designer) Description An account of the resource Binding of Wilby's Dan, by William Wallace Cook, illustrated by C.B. Falls, published by Burr Printing House, 1904. Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Pictorial bindings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1904 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives