1054 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/41f830b388bd4aaf87e151cdb68d005d.mp3 d0c783a964fa95c72dcc9d3bf69135e0 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c16ee22875e13959becc4dabc0831d23.pdf fe0bfc8004bf369ccd00f921d3ea706e PDF Text Text Where in the World is God? From the series: Creation – God’s Ecstasy Scripture: Isaiah 46:1-17; John 14:1-20 Richard A. Rhem Christ Community Church Spring Lake, Michigan August 25, 2002 Transcription of the spoken sermon The Reading From the Present: In an excerpt from Barbara Brown Taylor's The Luminous Web: Essays on Science and Religion, she contrasts the classical image of God with a new vision which she brings to expression in such an eloquent and poetic fashion: When I am dreaming quantum dreams, the picture I see is more like that web of relationships - an infinite web, flung across the vastness of space like a luminous net. It is made of energy, not thread. As I look, I can see light moving through it like a pulse moving through veins. I know the light is an illusion, since what I am seeing moves faster than light, but what I see out there is no different from what I feel inside. There is a living hum that might be coming from my neurons but might just as well be coming from the furnace of the stars. When I look up at them there is a small commotion in my bones, as the ashes of dead stars that house my marrow rise up like metal filings toward the magnet of their living kin. Where is God in this picture? All over the place. Up there. Inside my skin and out. God is the web, the energy, the space, the light - not captured in them, as if any of those concepts were more real than what unites them, but revealed in that singular, vast net of relationship that animates everything that is. As I suggested a moment ago, the reading from Isaiah, the 46th chapter, parodies the gods of Babylon. Babylon was in trouble and in that historical context, there were rumblings and the foundations were shaking. The people of Israel in captivity in Babylon had begun to doubt their own God and had begun to think that the gods of Babylon were, after all, God, because that God had won the battle. But now that God was on shaky ground because Babylon was besieged by Persia, and so the Hebrew prophet called the people of Israel to Judah to remember their God. In was in this context that the first chapter of Genesis was written, that poem of creation. The Hebrew prophets were arousing the people to © Grand Valley State University �Where in the World is God? Richard A. Rhem Page 2 remember their God, and to remember their God as the God who spoke and called all things into being. With a bit of ridicule over against the Babylonian gods, that had to be loaded on beasts of burden and carried out of town for safety, the writer suggests that the eternal God, the God of Israel, was one who does not need to be carried or saved, but one who carries and saves. In the rumbling of the foundations, such as a time like that, is a time to think about how we speak of God and where to find God in this world. I have been trying to do that in these last weeks, two series of sermons which really have melded into one series, as it were, "The Spiritual Life, Re-imagining Religion," and then "Creation as God's Ecstasy," but, really one series which was about how we speak of God in our day, how we image, how we envision God in a world whose world-view has become so drastically different than anything ever conceived of in the founding documents of our own religious faith, our own Judeo-Christian tradition. So, we have lived with those old stories and that old conceptuality, but as a matter of fact, the whole world has changed on us, the whole reality of which we are a part creates for us an entirely different picture. In such a world, our world, where in the world is God? And how do I speak of God? The first Sunday in October, philosopher- process theologian David Ray Griffin will be with us and I have been nicking away at this in order to prepare somewhat for him, for he has attempted to express God in terms of the reality of this world as we have come to know it through the natural sciences. His last book, Reenchantment without Supernaturalism, is a title from which I quoted some weeks ago. Reenchantment of the world, seeing the world with the light and charm and mystery and grace, but without that classical supernatural, theistic conception of a God "out there" who occasionally tweaks the process or interrupts or intervenes. Rather, a God who is a part of the process. That's where the term process theology comes from, God is not apart from but a part of that very process, the creative center, the energy that moves through, and, as Barbara Brown Taylor in the piece I read suggests in such poetic fashion, the God who is everywhere, the infinite one who is in us and through us and around us. But, how do we speak of that God? Let me say a word about the nature of a religious community such as we are. We are a cultural linguistic community. That means that we are a community that has a lot of relationships and interrelationships, and we have a language. We are a linguistic community so that there are certain words, there are certain symbols, there are certain images, there are certain actions, there are rituals, there are prayers, there are hymns, all of which are familiar and common to us, and when we hear those or speak those or sing those, something is triggered deeply within us and we know that we have been to church. Our emotions are stirred and we feel again connected. We are a cultural religious community. © Grand Valley State University �Where in the World is God? Richard A. Rhem Page 3 If you want to go to the big picture, we are a part of the Christian community. But, then you could have Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic or Protestant, and those are all sub-sets of that large picture. As far as the Protestant Church is concerned, there are sub-sets again. If you were raised a fundamentalist, certain things will trigger for you. If you were raised in a liberal community, other things will trigger for you. The point is this: religion formed into community is a human creative construct. It didn't fall out of heaven. It is the result of some founding vision that found expression, finally, in a community that was knit together by certain language, ritual, action, attitudes, a way of being. And so, a religious community is a community which is bound together by those things that mark it out and that touch it deeply. One community to another will differ. Someone has said that the difficulty of moving from one denomination to another is that you don't get the inside jokes. That's really true. There are certain things that happen that make us feel, okay, "I'm home. This is my family." The philosopher, George Santayana, made a profound statement when he wrote, "Ultimate insights (that is when I really see something, when I see through, when I really get it) have a tendency to undermine the orthodox approaches by which they have been reached." Now, think with me for a moment. Don't go off drifting and dreaming. This is important. Peter told me the last ten minutes of this sermon are terribly important, and I said that's only because the first ten minutes are even more important. Santayana said ultimate insights, when you really see it, undermine the orthodox method by which you arrive there. When you climb up the ladder and suddenly the heavens open up, you don't need the ladder anymore, at least if you scrambled off onto the roof. There is no other way to get that vision than through the hard work of that orthodox process, catechisms and creeds and confessions and hymns and worship and prayer and Bible study and all of that. And then one day everything comes into focus and you see the storybook of the Bible, you see all of the confessionals, the catechisms, you see all of the rituals, the sacraments as the means that brought you finally to say, "Oh, I see! Wow!" Santayana said to see that tends to undermine the orthodox way by which you came, because you recognize the relative nature of that way, you recognize that it was a humanly constructed way that finally brought you to see. He also says that when that happens to you, you pull the ladder up with you because you don't want to cheat anybody else. You pull that ladder up into your private little heaven into that grand vision because you have no right to deprive someone else of that same ladder, that same orthodox process. Well, I have flown in the face of Santayana because I have kept the ladder in place and I have pointed you to that ladder and I have said that is a good and relative and provisional and transitional instrument. It is not ultimate. It is not absolute. It is the way by which we got at the point where we could see the big vision. I have done that because I believe, not to do that, is to be unfair to you because you are © Grand Valley State University �Where in the World is God? Richard A. Rhem Page 4 bright enough and curious enough and you live in this world with your face ground into human experience deeply enough to where you have to know that the world-view with which you operate Monday through Saturday is a world-view, a reality, an understanding of all that is that needs to find a new way to say God. Where in the world is God in this vast cosmos with its amazing story? How do you speak of God in a fifteen-billion-year process where God is the energy, where God is the creative interaction, where God is the creative Spirit moving in a stream of being that has been unfolding and continues to be unfolding? In that kind of conception, how do you speak of God? That is what we have been trying to do. When you come to see that your way is relative, when you see the big vision that undermines the orthodoxy by which you got there, then what happens often is people say, "Well, it's just an illusion." Freud said that. Religion is just an illusion and one becomes a purely secular person. That's one possibility. But there is another possibility, and that is what we are about here, and that is with passion to seek to find fresh expression in order that this cosmos, of which we are a part and of which we know more and more, may be for us that stage where constantly, continually we experience the reality of God, where our spiritual life is in tune and resonates with the rest of the reality, the web of being into which we are woven. That is what I suggest to you is the grand possibility - to find a way to speak of God in light of everything else we know. Barbara Brown Taylor does that better than almost anybody I have found, in poetic fashion to point to the web of reality into which our lives are woven, we who are the children of the stars. Let me remind you again of what I have been hammering away at - creation is the garment of God, this Infinite Mystery that overflows, and creation becomes the finite incarnation of the mystery, that source of life, that source of being that is beyond us, yet before which our lives are lived, that Infinite Mystery whose overflowing results in cosmic reality, that cosmic reality, Big Bang cooling, expansion, life, consciousness, human. Here we are, a part of that overflow of the Infinite Mystery, the finite incarnation of that Infinite Mystery. In our own Christian faith, the classic center is the incarnation of Jesus Christ. In the beginning was the word, the word became flesh, no one has ever seen God, the only son in the bosom of the father, he has made God known. Jesus Christ the incarnation of the eternal God. The word in the beginning becoming flesh, revealing that Infinite Mystery. An incarnate finitude that reveals the Infinite Mystery. Then the Church went on to say that is once-for-all, the one supreme revelation. Wrong. That one instance is paradigmatic. It is the model. Jesus is the exemplar of what is true everywhere. The whole creation and everything human is the reflection of that Infinite Mystery that has found concretion. © Grand Valley State University �Where in the World is God? Richard A. Rhem Page 5 In John 14, they say to Jesus, "Show us the father," and Jesus says, "Have I been with you so long you still don't get it? If you have seen me, you have seen the father." The Infinite Mystery incarnate in the face, the exegesis of the Infinite Mystery. And not only Jesus, but then in the human. This is where the whole process has come. We see it in Jesus, but we can make it universal, for that whole unfolding drama has come to the point where God is incarnate in the like of us, and experienced, then, in community. There's mystical language in that 14th chapter. “I in you, you in me, God in me, I in God.” I don't understand that, but it seems to me the author was trying to say that the eternal intention became human, the Infinite Mystery became finite concretion and there - we see the Mystery, but we experience that we are the emanation of that Mystery. We are finitude in touch with that infinity. We, finite creatures, have a sense now of that Mystery. God is in that process and the process continues to unwind, and I had to say to you last week the toughest thing a pastor can say, because a great motivation of your religious experience is to find safety when you are afraid and security when you are alarmed and comfort when you are grieved and answers when you have questions. I had to say to you it is a self-creating universe and it goes on. It is a pitiless universe. It is a pitiless universe. There is no one to tweak it so that it works out well for you. There is no one to keep it from raining on your parade. I'm sorry. Does that mean, then, that you have to live without the experience of God? O my God, no! For the world is shot through with God. I suggested to you last week that, in your need, my arms will be the arms of God. In your grief, my tears will be God weeping with you. My forgiveness will be God's grace to you, and vice versa. You may say, "Well that's just human. I want something more than human." You can't have anything more than human because the human is divine. God has become incarnate in human flesh and when you feel human arms, when you see human tears, when you experience human grace, you are experiencing all of the God that you will ever have. But, what about when you sit under a tree and contemplate a babbling brook? What about when you see lofty mountain grandeur? What about when you stand before the starry heavens or the setting sun? O, of course, of course, because it's all shot through with God. It is the garment of God. It is the immediacy of God. In the whole realm of the natural world, there is nothing supernatural about it. It is the natural world with all of its wonder that is so wonderful, that is so pregnant with divinity which is the place where we live, where we can experience in human relationship, in community experience and alone, contemplating the evening star. © Grand Valley State University �Where in the World is God? Richard A. Rhem Page 6 Dear God, do you see? It is not that I take something away from you. What I take away from you is a broken symbol system and you can have it back with a second naiveté, if you give it up first of all and then you experience God in the width and breadth and height and depth of the human experience. And to see that is to live with wonder. In the Grand Haven Tribune, this sermon was entitled, "The Gift of Wonder," because that is what I thought I was going to call it when I was wondering about it. But it is the same thing. "Where in the World is God?" The gift of wonder is to know that God is shot through the whole of my experience, every moment freighted with eternity. There is no denial here. God is present even in the darkness. As I was thinking about this, I was reminded of Tuesdays With Morrie. Remember Mitch Albom's story about his old professor, Morrie Schwartz, who died with Lou Gehrig's disease by stages, who chronicled the gradual loss of his powers, the gradual draining away of his human existence? And before he died, Morrie had his own funeral. He had his own funeral with his own friends to celebrate his life. I said to my friend, Lenora Ridder, last night, "Wouldn't Bud have loved his funeral?" Why do we wait until a person is dead to celebrate life, human relationships, love, grace? Dear God, you see when I get a sense of that, if that's the way things are, well then I live with gratitude. Then I live with reverence before the wonder of it all. Then I live with humility, because then I know all is grace. My Dad never let me use the word luck because he believed in the sovereign God whose providence ruled over all, so I could never as a kid be lucky. But, I'm lucky. I am lucky. And so are you. And there are a lot of people that aren't so lucky. This pitiless universe grinds on its way, friends. It wavers not to the left nor to the right. The River of Being unfolds inexorably. But, I've been so lucky. Maybe I can do something for somebody that has not been so lucky. And maybe I can live with all the vitality of that wonder that washes over me so that I can be a source of life and light. Ah - don't you sense it? Don't you sense the wonder of it, how big it is, how beautiful, how filled with limitless potential? No, my religion is a human-created construct, it is relative, it is the ladder by which I have finally been able to say, "I see!" But then religion is so important in order for me to continue as a human being to live a spiritual life, knowing in my finitude that I am a part of the Infinite Mystery. That's really something. Really amazing. And that's really enough. References: Barbara Brown Taylor. The Luminous Web: Essays on Science and Religion. Cowley Publications, 2000. © Grand Valley State University � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Pentecost XIV Series Creation: God's Ecstasy Scripture Text Isaiah 46:1-7, John 14: 1-20 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-20020825 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2002-08-25 Title A name given to the resource Where in the World is God? Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on August 25, 2002 entitled "Where in the World is God?", as part of the series "Creation: God's Ecstasy", on the occasion of Pentecost XIV, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: Isaiah 46:1-7, John 14: 1-20. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9d230bdb3c49f127e57cf6bd1d53fd11.pdf 329f9640ac96f80332a5615ef03abd46 PDF Text Text Where Love Is, There Is Family From the series: I Do Believe Text: I Corinthians 13:8, John 11:1 Richard A. Rhem Christ Community Church Spring Lake, Michigan Mother’s Day, May 12, 1996 Transcription of the spoken sermon This is Mother's Day. It is not a Christian festival day. Purists condemn the practice of celebrating Mother's Day in worship. And it can be put down rather sharply by those who claim it is only a cynical commercial effort pandering to human sentimentality. However, one ought to know the power of the institution before one puts it in the dust bin of history. Mother's Day is big. And rightly so, if celebrated with perspective. Who of us will ever make it up to our mothers? And is not that intimate connection one of life's most wonderful bonds? And, so - Here's to Mothers! Thank you! God bless and keep you! It is not only the threat of our sentimentality that might give cause to celebrating Mother's Day in worship, however. A more serious matter has to do with the fact that Mother's Day is often portrayed in the context of parents and children in the ideal family all smiles and happiness. And for so many, that is not the situation, and, if that ideal is associated with God's blessing, one may impose not only the sadness that one's situation is not ideal but a load of guilt for not measuring up. It is perhaps this latter situation more than any other that always causes me to think carefully about the message for this day. And I have a wonderful word today - one that is good news for all of us and each of us - it is this: Where Love is, There is Family. I do believe in the possibility of human community whose bond fundamentally transcends blood ties and is relationship rooted in love and respect and shared vision. In other words, Mother's Day gives me an opportunity to point to the critical importance of human community and the manner in which human community fosters healthy, mature persons, on the one hand, and on the other, how healthy, mature human persons form family. © Grand Valley State University   �Where Love is, There is Family Richard A. Rhem Page 2   While our biological family is key and certainly, in the purview of this message, you will see that I use “family” as designation for a bonded human community, be it a small circle of friends or a faith community such as Christ Community. I do believe, where Love is, there is family. In our day, "Family Values" has become politicized and the phrase a slogan appropriated by the more conservative sectors of society to push their sociopolitical agenda. It is interesting, therefore, to realize that the New Testament does not provide much material to support the Family Values folk. We have noted more than once here that Jesus comes off as hardly a model child. I could have chosen to read Mark 3:31ff - the context in which Jesus' mother and brothers come to bring Jesus home because the word on the street is that he is mad. To that request to return home, Jesus says, pointing to those gathered around him, Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother. (Mark 3:34-35) I chose another Gospel reading, however, to illustrate concretely the contention of this message, that where love is, there is family. The paragraphs opening John 11 and 12 describe the home of Mary, Martha and Lazarus at Bethany, just outside Jerusalem. This would seem to have been Jesus' "home," Jesus' "family" to the extent he had one. In the 11th chapter, Mary and Martha send a message to Jesus that their brother Lazarus is ill. The illness is apparently obviously serious for them to send for Jesus. In the 12th chapter, it is another journey to Jerusalem, this his last. He comes to Bethany and Martha served a dinner, celebrating the life of Lazarus. At dinner, Mary anoints Jesus' feet with costly perfume, which irritates Judas, who criticizes the waste, commenting the money would better be given to the poor. Jesus defends the action of extravagant love. I am not treating in this message the narratives per se - the raising of Lazarus or the criticism of Judas. Rather, I point you to a family - Mary, Martha and Lazarus. They obviously were family through blood ties. But, love dwelled there; they were family in a more fundamental sense. And this was a family where Jesus found a home; they were family to Jesus. There was clearly tension between Jesus and his biological family. They were anxious about him, probably embarrassed by him. Everyone was talking about him. They were uneasy about that. People thought him off the deep end. That reflected poorly on the family. © Grand Valley State University �Where Love is, There is Family Richard A. Rhem Page 3   I can identify with that. My name is a four-letter word. But, it is misspelled as often as spelled correctly. Half the time it comes out Rehm. My dear aunt in Kalamazoo always breathes a little easier when the Kalamazoo Gazette gets it wrong. Not so in Bethany. The door was always open; the welcome mat was out for Jesus in the family of Mary, Martha and Lazarus. When the sisters send for Jesus, they say, "Lord, he whom you love is ill." And the Gospel writer tells us, "... Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus ..." In the 12th chapter, the dinner party, Mary performs an act of extravagant love. She breaks a year's wages of perfume over Jesus' feet. Love does extravagant things not weighing the practicality of the deed. That is love and where love is, there is family. Happy the person whose biological family is such a center of love, respect and shared values and vision. But, in all honesty, is that not somewhat rare? Have we not often found that an even deeper bonding occurs where, in our maturity, we find our soul mate or soul mates - that circle, that community where we have found love and acceptance for the persons we are at core? The biological family is so critical for our formation and we must be committed to the shaping of healthy families because family so critically shapes us. But part of the maturation process must be a process of individuation whereby we move out of the biological family. A few years ago The Atlantic Monthly published an article entitled "Chronic Anxiety and Defining the Self." It was an introduction to family systems theory, which, unlike psychoanalysis, which derives from Freud's paradigm focusing on the individual, focuses instead on the structure of interlocking relationships in which a person is involved. Not a person as an autonomous psychological entity (Freud), but a person enmeshed in a "family system." The insight of this analysis of family systems theory that speaks to my concern today is the recognition that a mature human person who begins in a biological family - a totally dependent being, must through stages of development move toward emotional separation from dependency on family of origin. The psychological term is differentiation and, according to family systems theory, there is an instinctually rooted life force, which propels a person to grow into an emotionally separate individual. Family systems theory also assumes an instinctually rooted life force that moves toward togetherness, keeping members of a family emotionally connected and operating in interaction with each other. © Grand Valley State University �Where Love is, There is Family Richard A. Rhem Page 4   The reason I refer to family systems theory is simply to point out that healthy families will seek to enable the developing child to be not only connected emotionally but differentiated as an individual, able to establish his or her independent self-identity. As we focus on the family today, that is a very important insight and it should be the goal of a healthy family. Too often we see dependency lasting too long and sometimes there is parental pressure that fosters that dependency. I run into that lingering parental control most often in regard to the Church. I have often related the amusing story of the woman who had joined CCC from another denomination in the 70's when there was eruption of newness all about and something exciting happening most every week. She asked me one Sunday, "What's happening next Sunday?" I replied, "Nothing special." She said, "Oh good, my mother is coming." Over the years I have witnessed it over and over again - with many of you here - a certain nervousness about how parents will receive the news that their grown, adult children are joining Christ Community that has for twenty-five years been on the cutting edge. I do understand that. I, too, am a parent. But, I am also clearly aware of my responsibility to cut loose my children so that they can in their independence and maturity choose their spiritual path. In The Atlantic Monthly article to which I referred, there is an excellent description of the person who has achieved a strong degree of emotional independence and a strong sense of self-identity. He begins growing away from his parents in infancy and becomes an "inner-directed" adult. While always sure of his beliefs and convictions, he is not dogmatic or fixed in his thinking. Capable of hearing and evaluating the viewpoints of others, he can discard old beliefs in favor of new ones. He can listen without reacting and can communicate without antagonizing others. He is secure within himself and his functioning is not affected by praise or criticism. He can respect the identity of another without becoming critical or emotionally involved in trying to modify that person's life course. (The Atlantic Monthly, 9/1988) To produce such daughters and sons should be our goal as parents. The description is an ideal and we all fall short at many points, but an ideal helps us to examine how clear we are in the execution of our task and how well we are doing. © Grand Valley State University �Where Love is, There is Family Richard A. Rhem Page 5   I cannot reflect on the emotional health of the family without making the application to the family of faith as well, for it seems to me that the ideal of a congregation is very similar to that of the family. Some years ago, James Fowler wrote a book, Stages of Faith, in which he described the stages of faith development, much as Eric Erickson described the developmental stages of learning and Kohlberg the stages of moral development. I was struck at the time by Fowler's contention that many congregations and many pastoral leaders program in the stultifying of spiritual maturation in order to keep the people in a state of arrested development. By short-circuiting the spiritual development, such ecclesiastical leadership breeds dependency in the flock and thereby more easily controls the people. This, of course, is tragic, but it is obviously a widespread practice of religious institutions. It should be clear that such practice militates against the forming of spiritually mature persons who have a spiritual/moral identity that is really their own. Just as in the biological family it is critical to foster the development of emotional independence, that is, to aid and abet the process of differentiation, so in faith families the goal should be to form persons with their own spiritual center who take responsibility for their spiritual growth and development. That is a hallmark of Christ Community; for twenty-five years we have been emerging as a faith community with a special image. For a number of years now we have used the phrase "An Alternative to Church as Usual." That such a phrase is more than a slogan without substance has been vividly demonstrated in these last months. In 1971, the congregation then gathered demonstrated a kind of boldness and liberal spirit in that it changed its name from the First Reformed Church to Christ Community. We declared our allegiance to the Reformed tradition and had not the slightest thought of ever leaving the RCA. We did, however, recognize that the name "Reformed" had become a label and that the rising generation would less and less be impressed with labels. We saw the need to create a new image and the name Christ Community gave us an identity to live into. We foresaw, too, that a growing ecumenical trend could best be captured by a name that invited a broad spectrum of confessional groups to become part of the blending of traditions that would enrich each and enhance the whole expression of Christian Faith. This congregation saw the future and moved toward it in 1971 and we have been moving toward it ever since. © Grand Valley State University �Where Love is, There is Family Richard A. Rhem Page 6   There has never been any intention of moving out of denominational affiliation but, in reality, we have created a new community here which has had little engagement with the Reformed Church, except through my own considerable involvement with the RCA at the national level. For some, long ties with the Reformed Church in America are important and the thought of separation is painful. That is understandable and it is regrettable that a choice is being forced on us. For I suspect the majority, the move out of one's "family of origin" was taken when you joined Christ Community. This congregation is composed of persons who have had the spiritual maturity and strength to leave their spiritual home and affiliate with a local community that manifested the spiritual vision and values that reflected their own. I do believe that that is healthy - a sign of maturity, of strong spiritual identity. For, finally, whether we think of our biological family, or our faith family, our goal should be the forming of emotionally independent, mature persons with a strong self-identity, and that involves both differentiation and connection. Mature, fulfilling, satisfying humane existence demands both independence and community and the only really healthy commitment to community comes from one who has realized a measure of independence. Then commitment is willed and engaged in freely with joy. No formal structure - biological family, ecclesiastical institution - can provide that; it is achieved through development of mature self-identity. Where that is the case - where persons have such mature self-identity, beautiful community is a possibility - in family, in faith family, for where love is - there is family. © Grand Valley State University � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f5a15559e089838e8b959de7df50affd.mp3 8224a38390526328e92ab9cac389f035 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Mothers_ Day, Eastertide VI Series I Do Believe Scripture Text I Corinthians 13:8, John 11:1 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-19960512 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1996-05-12 Title A name given to the resource Where Love Dwells, There Is Family Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on May 12, 1996 entitled "Where Love Dwells, There Is Family", as part of the series "I Do Believe", on the occasion of Mothers_ Day, Eastertide VI, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: I Corinthians 13:8, John 11:1. Community of Grace Love Mother's Day Open Mind Warm Heart https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d1287c70017109a73c067407f66d54dc.mp3 ab8641b06d518db085387d3118b1db2a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Lent IV Series The Sign of the Cross: The Way of Jesus Scripture Text Psalm 22:1, Mark 15:34 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-19910310 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-03-10 Title A name given to the resource Where Was God? Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on March 10, 1991 entitled "Where Was God?", as part of the series "The Sign of the Cross: The Way of Jesus", on the occasion of Lent IV, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: Psalm 22:1, Mark 15:34. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/678291c7b699fc81fda5a8b114937cc1.pdf 65e851c87d0ed04cafcd008eb32a0de6 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collection Kent County Oral History Project RHC-23 Mrs. George Whinery (Katherine M. Pantlind) Interviewed on September 16, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape 12 (23:50) Biographical Information: Mrs. Whinery was Katherine M. Pantlind, born 28 January 1910 in Kent County, daughter of Frederick Z. Pantlind and Hilda W. Hummer. Katherine was married in 1931 to George A. Whinery, Sr. She died 29 December 1998 and is buried in the Pantlind family plot at Oak Hill Cemetery. George A. Whinery was born 11 January 1902 in Grand Rapids, the son of Joseph B. and Fannie Whinery. He died 9 July 1992 in Grand Rapids at the age of 90. Katherine‟s father, Frederick Zachary Pantlind was born 26 July 1886 in Grand Rapids, the son of J. Boyd and Jessie L. (Aldrich) Pantlind. He married Hilda W. Hummer in 1906. Frederick died 15 November 1929 in Grand Rapids. Hilda, born 22 January 1886 in Holland, Michigan, the daughter of George P. and Margaret (Plugger) Hummer. After Frederick‟s death, Hilda married as her second husband, Mr. A. Chester Benson about 1932 and she died 31 July 1964. ___________ Interviewer: Mrs. Whinery, you‟re involved in the Shakespeariana Club and as I understand it, that club has had a long history in Grand Rapids. Could you tell me something about the history of the club, the background? Mrs. Whinery: Well, it was founded way back in April twenty third, eighteen eighty-seven, by a group of ladies interested in the study of Shakespeare, and it was founded by Loraine Pratt Immen and it has been meeting ever since eighteen eighty-seven, yes. Two, twice a month, the second and fourth Wednesdays, and we‟d study two books a year, a history in the fall, and a comedy in the spring. For quite a few years, a group of us have gone up to the Shakespeare Festival in Stratford, Ontario every summer to see the Shakespeare plays, which is most enjoyable. Turn it off Bob; I‟m nervous as a wet hen. Interviewer: Ok, perhaps…. Mrs. Whinery: A paper is written at each meeting by our members and at the Grand Rapids Public Library on the second floor, outside of the Michigan Room, there is a very handsome carved Shakespearean chest which was given in memory of one of our members. In that the papers are put, the good papers, the well-written papers; and that is our Shakespeare corner. There is a carved wooden hanging, piece above it where Shakespeariana momentums, have been put and that is the Shakespeare corner at the library. �2 Interviewer: The club‟s been in existence since eighteen eighty-seven. Why was the club formed, do you think? Mrs. Whinery: Well, because women are interested in Shakespeare. He‟s been with us for over four hundred years and he grows. Interviewer: Are clubs like this being formed today though? Mrs. Whinery: Well, there is a Shakespeare group connected with the Ladies Literary Club, that is think is still in existence, it isn‟t as old as Shakespeariana, but they have the same purpose, I‟m sure. Interviewer: Well, the thing I‟m getting at is that I saw, this kind of society bluebook that was put out for Grand Rapids. I don‟t know if you‟ve ever seen one, but it was put out around the turn of the century sometime, or maybe even in the eighteen nineties. It listed in there, clubs and organizations and I think, Miss [Josephine] Bender told me there were like seven or eight still in existence, that there was a list of about twenty; and it seems during that period of time, in the history of Grand Rapids, up to some unknown date, people organized clubs, they got involved in clubs. And it was a real tool of keeping people together, interacting. Mrs. Whinery: Well, this is the day of wheels and I think everyone‟s busy going places, instead of staying home and studying and reading and learning, I really do, I think everyone‟s on the go. Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Whinery: And we used to do so much more in our homes, we had, these are after we read and study and have our papers we have tea; that makes for a very nice social hour. But I just don‟t think, I think people play bridge today and as I say, go Interviewer: Has, in this club in particular, has the membership been increasing or decreasing? Mrs. Whinery: It stays the just about the same, you have to be invited to be a member, you have to be interested in Shakespeare and willing to write a paper every other year, we have about forty members and we keep it that size if it got any larger we couldn„t meet in the homes. Interviewer: Yes. Where did you grow up as a child? Mrs. Whinery: Oh, in Grand Rapids Interviewer: Where abouts in Grand Rapids? Mrs. Whinery: Well, down on Lafayette as a child; I lived on the corner of Lafayette and Wealthy and then I lived on Washington Street for a good many years, and then I lived with my grandmother on College. Interviewer: Yes, what was the, what was it like living down there? �3 Mrs. Whinery: Oh, it was great, that Washington Avenue gang, there were, by actual count, fifty some within that block and we had such good times. A lot of them are still my dearest friends, the ones I grew up with. That‟s what‟s nice about living in a city the size of Grand Rapids, because you keep your old friends; they‟re your best friends. Interviewer: Yes, was there a good deal of interaction not only among the children but among the adults, the parents? Mrs. Whinery: Oh, yes, they all were friends and went together, and had their dinner parties. Everyone had their swings and their playgrounds in the backyard, they didn‟t have the school playgrounds that we have today and we had, I know Mary Lockwood had a great big playhouse that her father, who‟s in the lumber business had built for her in the backyard and we just had the best times together. Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Whinery: Sliding down Mrs. Waters‟ hill and sliding down Washington Street and we had a pony and a pony cart, and the Peck girls had a pony and a pony cart and we all lived on Washington Street. Interviewer: Where did everybody keep their ponies, their animals? Mrs. Whinery: Well, Grandpa had a farm, a gentleman farm, there were Dudley Waters and Ben Hanchett and John Martin and my grandfather, J. Boyd Pantlind all had gentlemen farms; show farms. Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Whinery: And, we used to have a great time out there. Interviewer: Where was your grandfather‟s farm? Mrs. Whinery: It‟s now, grandmother, after grandfather died, grandmother sold it to the city and its now Woodlawn Cemetery on Kalamazoo. He had three or four hundred acres on both sides of Kalamazoo Avenue and the Catholic cemetery is on one side and the Protestant cemetery is on the other. Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Whinery: They just tore the little white house where the caretaker, the manager of the farm lived, and for a long time that was the cemetery office, but they tore it down a few years ago and built a modern brick building on the east side of Kalamazoo now for the offices. Interviewer: Your grandfather, did he run the Morton House or the Pantlind Hotel? �4 Mrs. Whinery: Both, he had the Morton first and then he bought the old Sweets Hotel, which he renamed the Pantlind Hotel and then that was torn down and he built the Pantlind Hotel. Interviewer: Yes. When was that? When was the Pantlind built? Mrs. Whinery: About nineteen seventeen, I would say, but I couldn‟t be too sure. Interviewer: Yes, I heard that your grandfather, what kind of guy was he? Mrs. Whinery: Oh, he was jolliest, kindest, most fun person in the world; he was not very tall, kind of round, immaculate dresser, and he was Scotch and he had a marvelous sense of humor. He could tell a story in every dialect and he just was naturally funny. And everybody loved him, he was known throughout the country. Interviewer: I heard that when the Powers‟ Theatre was going, and they used to bring a lot of the shows to Grand Rapids and so on that your grandfather was one of the ones chiefly responsible for it, only because the actors loved to come and stay at the Pantlind . Mrs. Whinery: I think they probably did. Grandmother had the greatest collection of signed autographed pictures of all the old actors and actresses, musicians and famous people that came and stayed with grandfather at the hotel and she gave that collection to the Civic Theatre, but it has long since disappeared. Interviewer: It has disappeared? Mrs. Whinery: …..any idea of where it is. Interviewer: No? Mrs. Whinery: Today, the Civic Theatre has made so many moves. Interviewer: Where was the Civic Theatre originally? How long has the Civic Theatre been in existence? Mrs. Whinery: Well, I can remember it when it was in an old building over on, over on of course, it‟s back on the West side now, but this was near the river, it had an old pot bellied stove. You should ask Josephine Bender about this because she‟s the authority on the Civic Theatre. I‟m hoping that before too long it will have a fitting permanent home. Interviewer: Is that the one they‟re talking about on the river? Mrs. Whinery: Yes, I hope so. Interviewer: Yes. �5 Mrs. Whinery: Going to take lots of money that‟s always the difficulty, but, I hope it will come, it should come. Interviewer: Was your family members of Kent Country Club? Mrs. Whinery: Yes and that‟s one of the stories that Katherine Lockwood wanted to tell you because she was a little girl on her white pony Rose when she and Grandfather Pantlind and, I‟ve forgotten what, it was Mr. Lowe or Mr. Blodgett and two or three other men were looking for a new location for Kent Country Club; and they all rode all out in the north end where country, where Kent is now located, looking at that area for a country club. And that‟s one of the stories she wanted to tell you. Interviewer: I never knew that Kent originally was located right down on the corner… Mrs. Whinery: Right here, my house is sitting on the one of the, oh what… Interviewer: Greens? Mrs. Whinery: Greens, yes a creek ran right through here and this was.... Interviewer: Yes Mrs. Whinery: But Grandfather was one of the founders of Kent at least where it is now, I don‟t know how far back that goes either. Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Whinery: But a long, long time… Interviewer: Are you a member of the Ladies Literary Club? Mrs. Whinery: No, Bob, I‟ve never been. Interviewer: How about the Women‟s City Club? Mrs. Whinery: Yes, I‟m a member of the Women‟s City Club. Interviewer: How long has that been around? Mrs. Whinery: Been on the board, well. (Turn it off!) Interviewer: Ok. Could you tell me the story you were just telling me where your family‟s homestead was? Mrs. Whinery: Well, my great, great grandfather William B. Ledyard lived in a charming white house that was torn down, on the corner of Cherry and Union. In fact, his property ran from College to Union along Cherry, and half a block back. That house was torn down to build the �6 Oakwood Manor Apartments. Their daughter Euphrasia Ledyard married Moses. B. Aldrich, an early mayor in Grand Rapids. They gave them their side yard, which was on the corner of Cherry and College to build a home; they built a large brick residence with a large brick barn. People thought they were crazy to build a townhouse in the country, as they said at that time, and from the cupola on the top you could see Grand River and all of the valley. Their daughter, Jessie Aldrich married James Boyd Pantlind. They were my grandparents and they were given the side yard to build their home on. I lived with my Grandmother for a good many years, and maintained the home after her death. My children were the sixth generation to live on that one piece of property, which belonged to my great, great grandfather William B. Ledyard. Interviewer: Where, now you have a piece of property, and the family begins there and as the children grow and marry, they build houses on the property until finally you have six generations of family living on the same plot of ground. Why do you think, I mean, what has happened? In some of the interviews that I‟ve had people talk about family and how closely knit their families were. Now why isn‟t that, why isn‟t it that way today? Do you think? What‟s changed? What happened? Mrs. Whinery: Well, I lay it all to wheels again, I think everybody is on the go; they don‟t want to stay home. Every kid wants to get their hands on the wheel of a car and take off; and I don‟t know, I loved my grandmother and had had great respect and admiration for her. I was close to my father and my mother and I just don‟t know why it is, although my children are satisfactory. They, I hope love and respect me. Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Whinery: I‟ve never had any trouble with my children; they‟ve given me nothing but joy and happiness. We haven‟t had that problem, Bob. Interviewer: You‟re very lucky that… Mrs. Whinery: I know I‟m lucky. Interviewer: That‟s, that‟s I know I‟ve asked this question of everybody, what it was that they think changed, ended that era? Mrs. Whinery: Well, I think it‟s too much permissiveness, I‟ve, I‟ve, my mother was strict with us…. I think you get out of your children just what you expect from them, and what you put into them. Interviewer: Yes, was the, do you think that when you were a child growing up, do you think there was a society, a definite society in Grand Rapids? Mrs. Whinery: Oh yes, there was, certainly there was a society. Interviewer: What was it based on, do you think? Entrance into that society? �7 Mrs. Whinery: Well….. Interviewer: And is it different from than the day? Mrs. Whinery: Oh, there isn‟t any society today. Interviewer: Why not? Mrs. Whinery: Well, it‟s just wanting to bring everybody down to the same level, I suppose. Don‟t get me started on this subject because I feel very strongly about it. I don‟t think things are improving at all. When I was a little girl we were satisfied with so little, we played with our animals and our pets, and I used to catch pollywogs, and frogs and snakes and I‟ve, I just, we didn‟t have to be entertained every single minute. Seems to me my grandchildren are glued before the boob tube all the time, or they want to be taken to the pool to swim or they want to go to see a movie, or they want this, or they want that; I don‟t remember that we required entertaining every single minute. I used to read all the time. I don‟t think children read the way we used to. I gave my Little Colonel storybooks, which I loved as a child to my granddaughter the other day and I don‟t think she‟s looked at them. Interviewer: Yes. What was society based on in those days, entrance into society? Was it just money? Mrs. Whinery: No. I think it was the same interests, the same educational background, your neighborhood you lived in; I wasn‟t conscious of one person having more money than the other. They used to do a lot of calling on one another and people had ballrooms on their third floor. Grandmother had a ballroom and they used to have their parties up there and it, I just think everyone had more fun and in a more wholesome way then they have today. They didn‟t feel they had to have their cocktail parties and… Interviewer: Was there liquor served at their parties? Mrs. Whinery: Well, of course I grew up in the prohibition era, and we didn‟t serve liquor at our house; and I know the Whinerys didn‟t. Interviewer: Yes. If you had to set a date or a particular event as perhaps being a thing that began the demise of that era, and that style of living, what would it be? Mrs. Whinery: Well, I think it‟s been since the Depression. Interviewer: Did the Depression affect your family? Mrs. Whinery: Well, I can remember doing with very little when George and I were first married. We were married in nineteen thirty-one and I had a very small budget to get along on. We had one car and we kept it a good long time. I can remember going along and looking down and being able to see right through the floorboard at the road underneath. And you know, I think �8 maybe it was all for the best. I think young people today, things are too easy, it never occurred to George and me with four children that we could get a divorce and that he could afford to get married again and keep another family. We were married, we had responsibilities and we had to get along. And now it‟s just so easy…if you don‟t feel like getting along, go ahead, get a divorce. Interviewer: There wasn‟t very much divorce? Mrs. Whinery: No. And now when my children, my son Fredrick, of course he‟s an M.D. and those are people that he associates and knows, he looked me right in the face last spring and said “Mom, I don‟t know any happy marriages” and I looked right back at him and I was horrified and I said “Fred, that makes me so damn mad. Your dad and I have been so happy and you go.” He said “I don‟t mean you, Mom” and he said “I was talking about my friends” And when Marney [MacAdam] says to me "Mother, I don‟t know any happy marriages, all my friends are having affairs or are unhappy”. I can‟t understand it. I don‟t like this age. Interviewer: Well, I think that‟s good, it‟s a good place to stop. INDEX Ledyard, William B. (Great-Great-Grandfather) · 6 B Bender, Josephine · 2, 4 P Civic Theatre · 4 Pantlind Hotel · 4 Pantlind, Hilda W. Hummer (Mother) · 6, 7 Pantlind, James Boyd (Grandfather) · 3, 4 Pantlind, Jessie Louise Aldrich (Grandmother) · 2, 3, 6 I S Immen, Loraine Pratt · 1 Shakespeariana Club · 1 K T Kent Country Club · 5 The Depression · 8 L W Ladies Literary Club · 2, 5 Women‟s City Club · 5 C � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ce3e950f14725ee3425b2ed741f92f43.mp3 f543ad30e141383bfd31b91478350d11 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_12Whinery Title A name given to the resource Whinery, Katherine Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Whinery, Katherine Description An account of the resource Katherine Pantlind was the granddaughter of J. Boyd Pantlind, founder of the Pantlind Hotel. She married George Whinery in 1931. She is a prominent member of the Kent County G.O.P. Mrs. Whinery died December 29, 1998. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/01a9b72c8e38b8bf64dc9851d46395c0.mp4 adafe6ce687dddf0aa90a1b5f2c21fdb https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/460550fadb17eb06437e669c506767af.pdf f146a0902b7cd84808890b6738d6dbe3 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW BRUCE WHIPPLE Born: Lansing, Michigan Resides: Lansing, Michigan Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, May 5, 2013 Interviewer: Bruce, can you start us off with some background on yourself. To begin with where and when were you born? I was born in April, 1949 right here in Lansing. I went to school in Lansing and I spent a little time in my early years in Holt, we lived in Holt for a while and then we moved to Lansing. I went through the Lansing schools, my mother was an assistant to the principal at Dwight Rich, so I knew all the teachers and could get away with a few little things and she was always quite behind me with everything I did. She was always pushing me to do better and to know people and that. I graduated from Everett High School in 1967. I‘d gotten my draft notice just prior to that and went down for my first physical. 1:01 In February of 1969 was when I had my actual draft induction notice, and at that time I went out to a Red Cross Center and took a bus at 5:30 in the morning down to Detroit and went through the induction process. Interviewer: Okay, at this point, how much did you know about what was going on in Vietnam and all that? Absolutely nothing—in high school I was into cars and girls and just having a good time and partying. I never paid any attention to the newspaper or the television or anything like that; we were just out to have a good time. Interviewer: Did you know anybody who had been drafted or had gone off to Vietnam already? 1 �I had, because I was working at an auto trim, Schubel's Auto Trim. 2:00 And my neighbor across the street, his brother had just been drafted and inducted and he asked me to come down and help him out at the shop and doing that, I had no idea, I was still in high school. I went down there and talked to Jack and this was on a Friday and I told him I came down to help out if I could. Ken‘s brother was being drafted and I was going to take his place and Jack said, ―Okay‖, and handed me a key to the door and said, ―Come in Saturday and open up for me‖, and I‘m thinking, ―I don‘t know anything about this‖, and he said, ―Just answer the phone and tell them I‘ll be in when I get in. Sweep the floors and take care of things‖, and that‘s how it all started, and I‘ve been there over forty years now. It was in 1965 that I started, and Ken‘s brother came back and I had a real good friend of mine that I grew up with, Dale Hildebrand, he had joined the navy. 3:06 he was just getting out of the navy, he was actually in the reserves, but he needed a job, so I said, ―Come down and work with me‖, so there were the three of us that were Jack and Doc and I. Interviewer: So, when you when you finished high school you didn’t have any plans for college , at that point, or anything like that? No, I had this job that I loved doing, and I loved working with cars, I loved—I mean it was just such a natural, I mean, I couldn‘t believe that I could do this and they paid me for it. I made money doing this and I just loved working on ―hot rods‘ and custom cars, and meeting all the big guys from the custom—you know, Carl Casper and Big Daddy Roth, I mean all these guys, they‘re California people, all these big names you see on TV and you know, I can do this and enjoy it and I don‘t even have to work the weekends if I don‘t want to, you know. 4:05 2 �Interviewer: But, they don’t give draft deferments for that. No, they didn‘t. At the time, when I first got my first induction notice, my girlfriend worked down on Main Street at the draft board down there, and that‘s where you went to sign up and get all your papers and that, and she said, ―Well, I‘ll just put your card back‖. It wasn‘t a number lottery thing, but just your name on a card, and she put my card back. Well, that lasted about three weeks and I ended up getting my notice to go. 5:00 The guys that I went to school with , Bob Taylor, his father was big in the National Guard, so at the time, towards the end of—we‘re talking about graduating, and now we‘re hearing—we got our draft notices and our cards are all 1-A and we‘re just waiting for our induction papers and Bob was trying to get everybody to join the National Guard, and just down the street from my house, two blocks, and thinking about it, we were all thinking seriously about it, and think out of the five of us that ran around as a group—of course Bob enlisted in the guard and his dad was a commander there and I think one or two of the other guys joined the guard. Well, I‘m thinking, ―If I join the guard, that‘s six years, and if I get drafted that‘s two years‖. 6:06 In high school I was taking up architecture and engineering and drafting and that sort of thing, and I thought maybe they could use somebody like that. I did auto upholstery and I thought they‘re going to need people to patch tents and fix Jeep tops and seats and that. I thought, I‘d take a chance, and I could do two years standing on my head, now that‘s what I thought. I got to thinking, ―Six years, two years, I can do two years standing on my head‖, and boy was I wrong. Interviewer: So, now you go down and you get the physical and so forth, now where do they send you for basic training? 3 �We went down to Fort Wayne in Detroit, that‘s the induction center and we were all processed through, just naked guys in a line getting shots. We‘re all fine and they couldn‘t find anything wrong with anybody, I don‘t think. 7:00 Interviewer: At that point, were there any people trying to find ways to beat the physical? Oh, everybody was trying to beat the system. Everybody, I mean, ―I got one leg that‘s shorter than the other‖, and it doesn‘t make any difference. ―I can only see out of one eye‖, ah, it doesn‘t make any difference, and we ended up going through that process and then they put you in a room and have you raise your right hand and swear you in as being enlisted in the service and they have you count off, 1,2,3. They had everybody in line and had you count off 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, and 3 and then they said, ―Everybody who‘s a number three step forward‖, and they said, ―Congratulations, you‘re a marine‖. They talk about the marin‘s never drafted, well, yes they did, and I was lucky to be a two that day, because all these guys, and I didn‘t want to be a marine, they were really in the deep stuff, you know. So, we left there and got on a prop plane at the Detroit airport, Willow Run, and it was the first time I‘d ever flown in a plane. 8:08 I‘d never been in a plane or ever been near one, and we get in this prop plane and one of the kids, the guys I want to school with, Craig Redman, we rode the bus down to Detroit together and talked and we sat together on the plane. I mean, he was like, even, my big brother at that time, I mean he was the one I---held me together, the first time I‘m on a plane, I‘m a nervous wreck, we‘re going—and I‘m just totally wiped out. We fly down to North Carolina because, normally, people from Michigan would go to Fort Knox or Fort Campbell, or someplace like that. Well, they were full, so we ended up at Fort Bragg down in North 4 �Carolina, nothing but sand and pine trees and I‘m thinking, ―I‘m kind of used to this being a Michigan guy, going up north, being at the beach, sand and pine trees‖, and man, was that a workout, sand and pine trees. 9:05 To this day if my wife says, ―Let‘s go to the beach‖, or ―The family‘s going to the beach‖, I said, ―Well, once they get all that sand cleared off the beach I‘ll be happy to go‖, because I do not like sand. Interviewer: What is the basic training experience like down there? Oh, I was a little guy, I only weighed--I was about five eleven and weighed a hundred and ten pounds and it was scary, I mean I was the small guy and you know, you gotta do all these big guy things and something you‘re really not used to. Big guy things being things like being able to do all these ladder bars and all these push ups and I wasn‘t conditioned for that. I did grow up out in Holt, on a farm, so I was used to farming and hunting and fishing and being in the woods. 10:03 As a kid we‘d go out and spear frogs and fry frog legs or catch some—swim in the river and catch fish, or go ice skating down the river and as a kid that‘s what I did. I was good with a rifle and we‘d go out with the bows and arrows and sling shots, and everybody had their twenty-two rifle, and that‘s what you did. That was my big downfall, I‘m thinking, I‘m not going back on my experiences as a kid, I‘m going on my experience as going through school and the job I had, you know, that would keep me out of being in the infantry. Well, needless to say, my youth came into play and I was good on the rifle range, so I ended up in the infantry unit. Interviewer: Now, when you were doing the physical training parts was there stuff they were telling you to do that you couldn’t do the first time? 11:00 Oh, definitely, yeah 5 �Interviewer: What happens to you at that point? You just try to do more. I mean, you‘re in this barracks with—this huge building with two floors and somebody‘s got to be up at night watching to make sure a fire doesn‘t break out. You get up at five o‘clock in the morning and go out and do calisthenics, then you run to a class, then you run to that class and then you come back for lunch and do calisthenics before—you have to do calisthenics and ladder bar before you can even get in the mess hall, and then you eat and run to wherever your next class is, and then you‘re out on the rifle range or some other range practicing, or you‘re doing pugil sticks where you‘re battling one another. You come back to the barracks and you‘ve got to clean, you got to scrub the floors, clean the latrines, and everything‘s got to be spotless. You‘ve got to polish your boots and then when the lights go out, then you have to write your letters home. 12:04 Just to put something in the mailbox, because there‘s not enough time, there‘s just not enough time, you‘re running just ragged. Interviewer: How much emphasis did they have on military discipline? Oh, everything was military discipline. You didn‘t talk to—you had to go through your little chain of command even from—you had to go to your squad leader, to your platoon leader, you couldn‘t just voice something unless you were asked, you didn‘t speak to anybody higher than that, you spoke to them first. The squad of five to seven guys, your squad leader was the one you went to, but your squad, everybody had to hold everybody together, because if one guy didn‘t then the next guy didn‘t do well. 13:05 The whole squad then falls and that puts you on another list and then you‘re doing KP and you‘re out picking up cigarette butts, just every nasty little thing you can think of they got you doing. You‘re trying to sneak food in because you‘re hungry and you want something. 6 �You know, I got caught sneaking in a can of coke to the barracks and had to do pushups, and then they tried to take the can away from me and at that point I‘m so annoyed that I‘ve done all these pushups and I want this can of coke. I grabbed it out of his hand and started drinking it, and, of course, that made things even worse, so that put me on KP for a while and a few more pushups every time and at that point I learned, ―Just be the little quiet guy in the corner‖, you know, keep your mouth shut, just follow the guy in front of you and don‘t look around. 14:01 That was what they wanted, that‘s what they wanted you to do, you follow the guy in front of you and do what he does and whoever‘s in front of him tells him what he going to do and the biggest thing was kill this and kill that. Everything you did was scream, holler and kill and that just worked you into that form, that form that they wanted you to be. I mean, at nineteen you‘re so—you‘re taking in everything you can and you‘re so impressionable that you just eat that up and then they tell you how big a man you‘re going to be and you‘re invincible, and that just sticks with you. The guys that are training us, the guys that are running us through all this are Vietnam vets that have just come back. 15:00 So, when you‘re having your breaks and you‘re sitting around and having a little BS session, these guys are in the middle and your eyes are this big around and just glued on them. Interviewer: Were they trying to give you some idea of what to expect? Oh yeah, and they said, ―What you learn here is nothing, you‘ll end up not using what you learned here, but you want to remember what you learned here because by being in that group is safety‖. If one guy does something and you know that‘s what he‘s going to do then that covers you, because if he‘s going to do this, you know he goes right and you 7 �could go left, you know, that‘s the way it‘s going to be. You had to have this line of first guy, second guy, everybody does what they do and you follow what they‘re doing. 16:00 Interviewer: They’re trying to prepare you to learn the stuff that you’ll really need. What they‘re preparing you for is the fact that things are going to die, people are going to die, it‘s going to be a lot going on, but they‘re preparing you just to be tough, I mean everything‘s about fight and kill and even the guys when you get in with the punji sticks and that fighting, you‘re out there to kill that guy, to do him harm and he may be your friend. He may be your friend, but if he can‘t take it, or you can‘t take it, somebody‘s going to die, that‘s what they put in your head. You gotta be physically fit and the road guards they had when you ran down the company—you ran everyplace you went, nobody walked, you ran. You ran down the company street and at the cross of it, where the street crosses, you had to have a road guard. 17:00 And he‘d run out, block out—one on each side of the road to block any vehicles or any traffic, so you guys could run through. They took the real big guys, the guys that were overweight, they were the crossing guards, so they had on these vests that lit up, reflected, but they‘d have to run up to the street and block it then you‘d run through. Well, they had to run up to the front again and catch everyone , so you could get to the next street, there wasn‘t the next guy in line that did that, those guys, that was their whole thing, and that was how they got them in shape. These guys, I had a guy that, Dipple was his name, I can‘t remember his first name, he was our crossing guard, I mean he was a big guy and he got into fantastic shape. Twenty years later I‘m out mowing the yard at home and he‘s moving into the house across the street. I looked at him and I thought, ―Gosh that guy‖, and I looked at him and it came to 8 �me, you know, here we are neighbors, you know, twenty years later I think it was at that time. 18:08 Interviewer: Now, were most of the men who were training along with you from Michigan and the Midwest, or were they from a lot of places? No, that was my biggest downfall as far as getting to reunions and that kind of thing. By being in North Carolina there was only one platoon of us that were from Michigan. Everybody else was from Tennessee, or Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, so that was all their area, so then when you went on with your service you were still—everybody was still in that same block. So, when we got done at Fort Bragg for basic, we went up to Fort Dix in New Jersey for AIT, which they called Advanced Individual Training, but it‘s Advanced Infantry Training, I mean that‘s all Dix was, and so, I‘m still with all these guys from down south. 19:03 I don‘t like sweet tea and banjo music, and I wasn‘t a country fan, country music fan, but here I am in the middle of these guys, you know. Interviewer: What kind of backgrounds did they have? Did you learn much about them? Oh yeah, I mean the guys from North Carolina, Bennett, Lyman Bennett, he saved my behind. He worked in a furniture factory. They had huge furniture factories and they would take up four or five blocks and they just built all this furniture. He worked in a furniture factory and a lot of them were just there because there was nothing else for them to do. We had guys that just got bumped out of school and the judge gave them a choice, you can do thirty days or three months or whatever, or join the military the end of the month. 20:05 9 �Interviewer: Did you have any guys that were a little bit older, maybe in college for a while and then out? We had-----in Vietnam and John Henrich was his name, but most of the guys I was with in basic and that, we were pretty much all the same age. Not too many college graduates in the south and maybe that was because we were in the south, but most of them, we were about the same age. I can‘t think of anybody, actually, that was a college graduate. Interviewer: There were a lot of guys that I run into that had done a year or two of college and then left for one reason or another, or their grades get bad and they wind up there, but in the south, even among the white population, not too many were necessarily going to college at that point, so that wouldn’t happen. What proportion of them were minorities do you think? 21:01 I would say, all but one or two of our drill sergeants were black. I guess I‘d have to go through and take out a picture. At that time I was just basically a farm kid that moved to Lansing and race had—I had no perception of race. I mean, one of my friends, Terry, in school, Terry, and just a few years ago we got back together for a class reunion and he‘s telling me he‘s black and I‘m thinking, ―Wait a minute, you were my best friend in school and you‘re not—―, well he was mixed race, yeah, and he said all the kids gave him a hard time in school and I said, ―Terry, I don‘t remember any of that. I don‘t remember us being that way‖. 22:01 I would say, in basic, probably a third were colored and it made no difference. They ran right along beside you, they crawled over mud right along beside you, they puked after coming out of the gas chamber with you, and like I say, our drill sergeants, all but one or two of them were colored and they were the nicest guys in the world. I mean, they were hard on us, but we knew shy they were hard on us. They 10 �were trying to prepare us for what they had already been through and they did a heck of a job. Interviewer: Now, how was Fort Dix different from Fort Bragg in terms of the training you got and the experience you had? Fort Dix was more parties, and Fort Bragg was by the book, straight up. At Fort Dix we flew home every weekend. 23:01 I mean, we‘d only have like a fifty mile pass and we‘d fly back to Michigan and there were five of us that flew back and forth to Michigan every weekend. Interviewer: How could you afford to fly back to Michigan? The ticket was sixteen dollars and fifty cents and it was thirty three dollars going back because coming to Michigan we‘d fly standby, so we‘d go on military standby for sixteen dollars and fifty cents. Coming back we‘d buy a regular ticket. Interviewer: You had to be sure you’d be back on time. Yeah, we had to be back on time. We got stuck in the air one time in a snow storm and we got back late, but nobody stayed on base as far as on the weekend and if they did, all they did was drink. I mean, you‘d come back on Sunday night and it‘s like being in a park atmosphere. 24:04 They got picnic tables and benches littered with beer cans and that kind of thing. Everybody at that point, everybody knew where they were going, because when you go to Advanced Infantry Training you‘re definitely low man on the totem pole. Two of my friends from basic, one guy, Don Wilhelm, slept above me and Steve Woodard slept in the next row of bunks, and Don was always upset, he lived in Petoskey, he was a ski instructor in the winter, his dad had a housing construction company that was there, so he worked there in the summertime building homes and had it 11 �made. Lived in Petoskey, beautiful, ski instructor in the winter, how much better can you have it? He was all upset about going. 25:00 When we got our orders to go, Steve and Don both got orders to be engineers and go to Alaska. I was pleased because of Don, you know, that‘s what he needed, somebody‘s looking out for him was my feeling. Interviewer: So, once in a while the army does something intelligent. Yeah, and the bad part is that it doesn‘t necessarily work in your favor. I got in probably—I was at a car show, of course working at the trim shop after coming back, probably about five years later, I was at a car show and ran into Steve. Weird, he was at the car show and we were talking, hadn‘t seen each other, and he said, ―You heard what happened to Don didn‘t you?‖ I said, ―No‖, and Steve-- it was the first time I ever seen him or wouldn‘t know Don, or have seen him, because of him being in Petoskey. 26:00 He said, ―Well, he came home on leave to get his car, he‘d just bought a new El Camino and he was driving it back up to Alaska and was hit by a train and killed‖. I still have pictures of the three of us outside the barracks. I still have that picture that I always set out and I always think about that. Interviewer: What did the training at Fort Dis actually consist of? What were you doing there? Well, at Dix I trained more into mortars, so most of our time, again, was physical, running here to there, learning to shoot the mortar, going to classes to shoot the mortar, learning to shoot the [M]60 machine gun, your rifle, qualifying with your rifle. 27:00 We didn‘t get to throw grenades, we threw rocks because the group that went through in front of us, the group that went through in front of us, somebody dropped a grenade in the pit and the guy was killed. They have a sergeant in there with you and he‘s teaching you 12 �how to throw the grenade because you‘re not supposed to throw it like you‘d normally throw something, you‘re supposed to do this special movement and everything. One went off and it killed the trainee and the sergeant was badly wounded. So, at that point they wouldn‘t let you throw grenades anymore, so we threw rocks out of the pit and see how close you could get to whatever it was you were throwing the rock at. Interviewer: Did you get to go to New York City at all? No, we went into Philly. We missed our flight once and we went into Philly. Not the good part of Philly. Around an airport you figure it‘s pretty much—but you can‘t believe the row houses, house on house, on house, and there‘s street, sidewalk, house and nothing between them and nothing that I‘m used to. 28:06 I‘m figuring I‘m a city boy, but the houses here in Lansing, they got room between them and you can move, and you‘ve got a little greenery, you know. There it was—and it was a pretty rough place there, but we spent most of the time going from bar to bar and being in uniform, we had to be in uniform to fly standby, military standby, and the bars, as long as we were paying they would give us beer. Interviewer: Now, this was 1969, did you ever get hassled by anybody because you were in uniform? No, because we weren‘t really out in the open. I mean the people in the bars, it was dark and they didn‘t—I don‘t think we went to the bars, actually, dressed in uniform. 29:00 I‘m trying to remember, I think we all had a ditty bag and we had shirts and pants in there. We had to go through the—well, after they got to know you, you didn‘t need to be in uniform, but we always—it was a race, there were five of us that always went from Michigan, so we‘d get in a cab outside the base and tell the cabby, ―There‘s an extra 13 �hundred dollars in it if you can get us to the airport on time‖ , because we just minutes from the time we got out until five o‘clock on Friday when the flight left. We flew Alleghany Airlines most of the time and we‘d run past the counter and toss our stuff to the ladies and they‘d have waiting there for us at the counter, because they got to know us, you know, eight weeks of doing this. We‘d run for the plane and they said, ―Hurry up‖, because they were getting ready to pull the boarding ramp. We‘d run to the gate and get on and there were only about three or four stewardesses on the plane and us, so we just, on the way back to Detroit, drink and talk to the stewardesses. 30:08 There would be nobody else on the plane. Interviewer: Now, was AIT sort of your last stage of training before Vietnam? Right Interviewer: So, at the end of AIT did you get to go home first? We got a thirty day leave. Towards the end they run you—they have what they call a mock Vietnam village, so they run you through that and you kind of do a little war game and that‘s sort of the highlight of your training at Fort Dix. Yeah, then we went home. We graduated from that, flew home and had a thirty day leave, and then my orders had me—I had, on this particular date, go to Fort Lewis in Washington and I was on my way. Interviewer: Now, at this point are you going in as a replacement, so you don’t know what unit you’ll go to or anything like that? 31:04 You have no idea, you‘re just a guy in an army uniform and they could be—even when you process. I went to the airport, got on a plane and flew up to Seattle, Washington, we spent the night in ta hotel again, there was the five of us, and we ended up going to the hotel for the night, and then the following morning we had to report, like six o‘clock 14 �in the morning, at the Fort Lewis, and at that point they process your paperwork and make sure your inoculations are all up to date, and give you—I don‘t think they give you any fatigues, I think you‘re still in your dress greens when you get there. 32:00 Interviewer: How long did you spend at Fort Lewis? Did they get you out right away or did you stay around a few days? We were gone that night. Yeah, we were out at the airport late in the night, one or two o‘clock in the morning. Interviewer: Where did it stop, or did it stop? It did, it stopped and I don‘t know just exactly which ones we stopped at, most of the time I slept. When I get on a plane I sleep most of the time. I know we stopped at Clark Air Force Base, and we stopped in Hawaii, I believe. Other than that, the only thing I remember is coming into Cam Ranh Bay. Interviewer: Were you on a military aircraft or was it a commercial one? It was a commercial aircraft and the stewardesses were all about sixty years old, because going into a combat area it was a high priority, high paid flight, so here you are a nineteen year old and you‘ve got all these forty and fifty year old stewardesses. 33:05 We were kind of bummed. You have to kind of laugh, because here we are going to a war zone and thinking, ―I‘m never going to see another woman and I‘ve got to spend twenty-two hours on a plane with my grandmother‖. That was the feeling. Interviewer: What kind of a day was it when you got into Vietnam? Did you land during the day or at night? We landed during the day, and I‘m not sure, but it was in the morning, I guess, around ten. 15 �Interviewer: What was your first impression of Vietnam when you got there? Oh, it stunk. It was hot, and it stunk. The humidity, I mean they opened the door to this plane and it just hits you right in the face and would like to blow you right over. The heat is unbelievable, the humidity--and again, nothing but sand. Cam Ranh Bay, all you see is these huge sand dunes and everyplace you look is just all sand, nothing green. 34:08 You step out of that plane and the smell hits you and that place just stunk. I mean, it was the nastiest smell; it was like walking through a garbage dump, that‘s what is smelt like. Interviewer: Now, what time of the year was it? Was it about June or July? This is in July, July 12th. Interviewer: You get in and what did they do with you once you get off the plane? Basically they ran you through a place to get—kind of like a big—they call it a pole building now days, a big steel roofed building, and they give you clothes. You know, you got jungle fatigues and you‘ve got to get out of your dress greens, which was half the reason why you were sweating. 35:01 They gave you a duffle bag, clothes, underwear, socks and stuff. You could work through the line and get that and they had you go someplace, wherever you wanted to go, to barracks. Well, they didn‘t really have barracks, but they had like a big latrine washroom, kind of, where you could go and change and put your other stuff back in the duffle bag and it was just gone at that point. Interviewer: How long did you spend there? We were by that evening, I would say four or five o‘clock in the afternoon, we were on a bus out of there headed for—we went to Bien Hoa. You got on this bus and the first thing—all of a sudden you‘re dressed as a soldier now, and you‘re not looking spiffy, and you‘re thinking, ―They gave us all this stuff, but they didn‘t give us any weapons. 16 �What‘s going on?‖ 36:11 I heard how bad this is, we‘re in a war and they put you on this bus and it‘s got steel mesh, chicken wire, over the windows. You‘re wondering, and everybody starts talking, and all the rumors you hear, ―Well, that‘s so somebody doesn‘t run up and throw a grenade or something in the window‖, or whatever, and okay, were taking this bus and we ended up going to Bien Hoa and that was starting—it was outside—it was a big base camp and there were villages all around it outside of town. They had like these wooden hooches that were raised up off the ground a little ways and there‘d be about three laps of board and the rest of it was screen with a metal roof. They had these big old army tents, the JP Mediums and whatever is the largest they can get. 37:05 If they have the same sizes everywhere, I don‘t know, but it was like having to be in your underwear there, because inside the temperature is hot and those tents don‘t breathe. And again, we spent the night in there, no weapons, and this whole planeload of guys inside these tents and all this stuff going on around you and things. That night the ammo dump got hit, they mortared the ammo dump and that went up. You have nothing; you‘re running around, everybody‘s---Interviewer: What did you guys do? You just sit there and shiver and wonder what‘s going to happen. I mean, you pucker up real good on that, everything gets real tight. Interviewer: Nobody sends you to a bunker or anything like that? There‘s no bunker, you‘re in a compound and the bunkers are way out beyond where you can see where you‘re at. 38:02 We were in those tents all night long, bugs, mosquitoes, the heat, it was just nasty. Everybody was hot and sweaty and you couldn‘t hardly get a breath it was so heavy, the air was so heavy. The next morning came and they started 17 �lining us up, and you know, and say where you‘re going to go and who you‘re going--they‘re checking your paperwork again and filling out all your paperwork. You‘re going to be assigned to—Greg ended up being assigned to the 1st Cav, he was the one that I buddied up with and we were both from Lansing and our wives new each other. Our family—we knew from thirty days of leave time we spent a lot of time picnicking and cookouts at his house and his parents‘ house, and my parents‘ house, so we got to know each other and we got split up at that point. 39:03 He went with the 1st Cav and I ended up with the 101st. Then it was a matter of, you have your group, ―you guys are going to the 101st, wait here and the truck will come and get you‖. They put you on a plane, they put you on a cargo plane, and we ended up going up to Camp Evans, which was up by Phu Bai, and that was out major basecamp for us. We got there and everybody—people were there, there was a clerk, five or six of them, calling out names, ―You go with this company, you go to this side‖, so I ended up by myself, going with Echo Company, the 2nd of 506 [2nd Battalion, 506th Infantry Regiment, 101Airborne Division]. That‘s how I got to that company. Then I got in there and they—into the company area, and then I started getting all my equipment. 40:02 They started loading me down with all my equipment, rucksack, finally got a weapon and, ―What do you want to carry? My stupid behind, I picked a M79 grenade launcher and thought that would be really neat. I was trained in mortars and I was one of the best that went through the class, and I‘m thinking, ―Bump gun, mortar, things blooping out of a tube, I got it made‖. Interviewer: Did you get assigned to a mortar unit? Oh yeah, Echo Company was mortars and recon and crew served equipment, light crew served thing, meaning it took more than one person, like with a machine gun you had 18 �your gunner and your ammo bearer, so it was that kind of a thing. When I got to Camp Evans , I got assigned to Echo Company and they loaded me up with all my gear and stuff and said, ―go out to the chopper pad, they‘re going to take some mail out to the firebase, a firebase called Berchtesgaden in the A Shau Valley. 41:05 It was the worst place you want to be. On a firebase in the A Shau, the only thing worse than that is walking through the A Shau Valley, no different. Got you out to the helicopter pad, you wait for the helicopter, and go out with the mail. I‘m setting out there and some guy, one of the guys that were out there had come in for medical reasons, or something, or came in to get something, I don‘t remember, but we sat and talked. He‘s telling me, ―Oh, you‘ll love it out there. I‘m going to introduce you to Suzy when we get out there‖, and I‘m thinking, ―Suzy, a female?‖ On the firebase he‘s always telling me about Suzy, he‘s always telling me about Suzy, and finally--we sat there like three days until dark and then we‘d go back to the hooch and spend the night. 42:02 Then we‘d come back out and sit on the chopper pad. Now, this is steel planking you‘re sitting on and it‘s called PSP, perforated steel planking, it‘s got holes in it, so when the helicopters land on it they don‘t blow stuff around, dirt and that. When you‘re sitting on that it‘s a hundred and seven degrees and there‘s no shade. Interviewer: So, you’re just sitting there waiting for a helicopter? Just waiting for a helicopter and sweating. Getting used to the atmosphere and sweating, and getting a little more used to the atmosphere and sweating and trying to find something to drink. Interviewer: Didn’t you get sunburned sitting out there? 19 �Oh yeah, you get sunburned and you get dark and you just stay dark after that. Finally we got a helicopter to go out and that‘s the first time I‘d ever flown in a helicopter. I‘m thinking, ―Hop in the helicopter, close the doors, no big deal‖. That‘s not going to happen either. The stuff goes in and then you go in and then you‘re sitting on the edge of the helicopter with your feet hanging out. 43:01 Interviewer: so this is a Huey or a smaller helicopter, not a Chinook? It‘s a Huey, not a Chinook, and most of the time we flew in Hueys, but you‘re sitting there and just hanging out, and you got your rucksack on you. When you tip you‘d think you‘d fall out and it‘s a weird feeling, but you‘re hanging on and your knuckles are turning white. You‘re hanging on and the door gunner is just getting a kick out of it because we got a newbie, we got a cherry here, everybody was called cherries when they first came in country. Scared shitless, I mean, just unbelievable, and you‘re flying along at treetop level and you got nothing out there but the tops of trees and the jungle. Flying along and up all these mountains, and Berchtesgaden was up there and I think it was like 870 meters high, and that‘s pretty tall. 44:02 You get out on the chopper pad and you sit out there and you‘re in the middle of two mountain tops with a saddle in between it and artillery was on this side and mortars was this side with bunkers around it and concertina wire, and that‘s where all the grunts pulled guard, that‘s where you pulled guard and stuff. You get out there and finally get to meet Suzy, which his name was actually Roland and everybody just called him Suzy, and that was the big joke of the—everybody had the big laugh on the new guy, ―Oh yeah, he thought we were ―, okay. So, they put me in hooch and I buddied up—they put me in my squad, which George Bourdwyn [?] was the squad leader, and he was the gunner. There were only like four of us on the gun. 20 �45:00 There were three mortars on the mountain top, on our side of the mountain top. Two H-E with high explosives in it and we had, down in the saddle where the helicopter land, we had a mortar pit down there, but that just fired lamination, so when something happened you‘d fire lamination to light it up and see what was going on. The H-E pits didn‘t have that and they didn‘t have H-E down at the lamination pit, but I worked with George up in the mortars and H-E pit. It was right on the side of the mountain, I mean, you look over the side, concertina wire, and just nothing but air, right straight down the mountain. George and I got along really great, you know and he was the best there was at the time. Then we had Bennett who came in with me, he was already out there, we went through AIT and basic together. 46:04 Bennett was from North Carolina and he worked in a furniture factory. He was my ammo bearer, I ended up being the gunner, and George ended up being the squad leader. Interviewer: At what point did you become the gunner? Was that right away? It was that day, right that day. This whole thing—at that point, right then, it was in top pitch with George, he was the best, and I‘ll get to George in a minute, but I had a lot to live up to. I mean, he was the best, and of course, I just came from the states and I was the best, so I was the gunner that day. Bennett, he would fire, he‘d cut the charges off the rounds and drop them down tube, I‘d set the gun up and we fired right from that moment. I‘ve got a picture of George and I standing together because we both carried our thump guns. 47:02 The picture was taken on George‘s birthday and he had just turned seventeen and he‘d been there six months. Interviewer: How did that work? 21 �His parents signed him up, and he‘d turned seventeen in the picture, and I‘d just gotten in country and he‘d been there six months, but George was good. He taught me everything I could possibly know about Vietnam. If you didn‘t buddy up with somebody when you were there your chance of making it was, maybe, two weeks. Interviewer: Not everybody got a very good reception when they joined a unit, and had a lot to do with what unit you were with and what the guys were like. In this case you had people right away telling you what to do and giving you some responsibility and so forth. Were you firing the mortars from the very first day? From the very first day, yeah, and what we had out there, we had a thing called a mad minute. 48:03 At this particular time every night you‘d fire everything, so that‘s where I got my experience. You‘d just fire a mortar just to fire it, it didn‘t make any difference, chopper in some more when you got done the next day and you‘d fire it. Our pit was built right along the edge of the mountain and like I say, it was right straight down to the valley from there. We‘d fire them up at zero charge and try to catch them as they went by outside the pit, which the stupidity of a nineteen year old the first thing is if you hit the end it‘s probably going to explode, and if you do catch it, it‘s probably going to rip your arm off because there‘s fins, tail fins and those things are going to mess you up. I was just the idea, you know, that maybe we could do this. We‘d have a mad minute, and it would be dark, usually around nine or ten o‘clock at night. 49:02 Everybody on the bunker line would start and open up, throwing grenades, firing their 60‘s and their 16‘s and thump guns, I‘d fire my thump gun and fire the mortars. Interviewer: Did they tell you what the logic was in doing that? 22 �No, we just figured it was so we could get practice firing things and maybe whatever was there we might scare away. This went for—I was there less than a month and we did that, and I had the bright idea, ―Okay, we‘ve been doing this every night‖, and this came down from the big guys, and artillery‘s firing too, ―If we do this every night at the same time. Let‘s screw them up and do another one‖, so they decided ten minutes after we do the first one, we‘ll do another one, just to screw things up. Sure enough—we always sat up a bunker line every night and watched Kirby down in the valley, they‘d get overrun every night, and they‘d get hit every night. 50:04 You‘d watch the green tracers, and the mortars, and the red tracers going in and out, and all the flashes from the grenades and artillery and everything. We‘d sit on the bunker line and watch that every night down the hill. They were down in the valley and we‘d sit and watch them every night and this night it didn‘t happen and we were all bummed and we were back in playing cards. Mad minute time, time for our mad minute came up, we had our mad minute and we all went back in the hooch and we were going to play cards again. We‘d get five or ten minutes and we‘ve got to get back out and everybody‘s getting everything, and getting back out there, and we started having our next mad minute. Well, the gooks were coming after us that night and when we had our mad minute, they thought we‘d spotted them, that they‘d been seen, but they hadn‘t. They were coming up through the garbage dump and all around the mountain and coming up after us. 51:02 Interviewer: So, how did you know they were there? When they started shooting and when things started coming back. You know, ―Wait a minute; this isn‘t all something going out‖. I could actually sit and hear the mortar rounds come. They were walking like a zee down the mountain and they got our number 23 �one gun at the top, the A-T gun at the top, and they were trying—mine was kind of over, but they missed it and were coming down, and I don‘t know if they ran out or decided to change, but they just—that‘s as far as they got. So, they‘re coming after us, coming up the hill, and a matter of fact, they‘re in the light, they‘re so close you could see the muzzle flashes. Now that our number one A-T gun is out, it‘s been hit with the mortars, Bennett and I now went down to work the illumination, and Bennett‘s popping illumination and I‘m running up to the A-T pit and getting some mortars and bringing them down to that gun so I could help fire that gun besides firing illumination. 52:08 So, I‘m running up and down the side of the mountain and we got ammo crates put in like steps, and the pit wall is about yea high and it‘s sandbagged. I‘m running up and grabbing three rounds and running down and putting them down there and George is firing that gun and I‘m running back up and getting three—Bennett‘s firing the illumination while I‘m bringing the rounds down too. Things get tight, you know, we could get from the other pit and do that, and I‘m running back and forth, I come running down with three and throw them down and go to run back up and somebody grabs my leg and I trip and fall on these boxes we‘ve got for steps. I mean, I‘m hurt and I‘m pissed, what the hell, you know; somebody grabbed my leg and tripped me and put me down. By the time I got done rolling around Bennett‘s looking around the corner and he said, ―You can‘t do that, they‘re shooting at you every time you run up that hill. 53:05 Sure enough, there‘s the dump and it‘s right where I‘m running, the opening for our illumination gun. So, by him tripping me he probably saved my life. Interviewer: How did you know what to shoot at with the mortar at that point? 24 �You have what you call D-T‘s, delta tangos, and they‘re designated targets. So when you‘re not doing something, which is not very often, but on a firebase, you‘re shooting these delta tangos and you got them all numbered. Somebody will say, you know—you don‘t have to have it, you got it on your board, you know where this one—they‘ll say, ―I need a double tango right‖—whatever, and you know where that is and you got it right there. I need it a yard from there or two yards, whatever, so you just fire it, because everybody out there‘s coming at you and there‘s nobody out there you‘re going to kill that will make any difference to you that could get you into trouble. 54:11 You set them up and fire, you don‘t necessarily wait. What you do wait for is if you get a call and they say that they‘ve seen a mortar, or somebody—an area where there‘s a group of guys, Vietnamese coming after you, or coming up there, or if they see a mortar tube that‘s firing at you, then your job is to take the tube out, to take that stuff out, so in all of this you‘re doing all these things. You‘re shooting illuminations that light up the firebase, so the grunts can see, the guys in the bunkers can see if somebody‘s coming up, and then you‘re firing the other ones to keep whoever‘s coming up away from the edge of you, but you know how far out you can fire, I mean you don‘t have any friendly‘s out there, so as long as you clear the bunker line, you got to be so many yards out past the bunker line, ―danger close‖ is what they call it for the other ones and you can‘t fire within that area. 55:10 Interviewer: How long did the fire fight last do you think? It started around dark, probably about—we wrapped our first things—probably around ten o‘clock, I think it started, maybe and lasted until about daybreak. Interviewer: It was a pretty serious ongoing thing? 25 �They were sending a good sized group came up and we ended up with thirty seven bodies inside the wire. They were going after artillery, so that was the other mountain top, so they were coming up from that [side] trying to get over to artillery, although they were shooting everybody. They had thirty seven guys in the wire, bodies inside the firebase. They were going after the artillery TOC, which is the control. 56:00 They did wound the artillery commander, but most of them, a good share of them were found around our artillery, but there were thirty seven. Then in the morning you‘re out policing everything and cleaning everything up. We took all the bodies and laid out cargo net and piled all the bodies up on the cargo net and I mean it was probably six or seven feet tall with all these body‘s we had piled up there and it was like mannequins, wax mannequins, you don‘t think of them as being anything more than that. Interviewer: You had never seen a dead body before had you? No, no, other than in a suit and tie in a coffin. That‘s quite a—this was—I had only been in country maybe a month. You go through a week of P training when you first get there and that‘s when they get used to you sending you to your unit when you‘re at Bien Hoa and then setting on the chopper pad for three days and then getting out there. 57:02 Yeah, about a month and we were overrun. I was in a place and, of course, now I‘m not a cherry because you‘ve been in a firefight and that. Interviewer: Was that the only major fight you had while you were at Berchtesgaden? Yeah, right after that they pulled everybody. The monsoons were coming, so they pulled everybody. They were taking everybody off of the valley, out of that area of the country because they couldn‘t get helicopters in. it would cloud up so bad that you couldn‘t see . 26 �I mean, you could stick your arm out into a cloud and it was like your arm was gone. You couldn‘t see from your elbow down that was a cloud. That‘s how thick it got, and between that and the rain you couldn‘t resupply you. It was really hard to hump in the jungle in the rain and everything was just so slimy, dead and slimy and rotted and everything was just crummy. 58:06 Back to the guys—we put all the guys, the bodies we had we put them in a cargo net and put our death cards on them, and hooked the cargo net up to a Chinook, a Chinook came in and we hooked the cargo net up to the Chinook and had them fly them out over the valley and let go. It rained bodies for quite some time. Interviewer: You said death cards, what? You had a—at that time, before they banned them, it was a card saying who you were and a lot of them were—they were like playing cards. Our playing cards had—they were all the same card, the ace of spades. Wow, being the 2nd of the 506 our unit designation is a spade, like the 502‘s is a heart. During WWII this happened, they had it painted on the backs of their helmets so they could designate the unit that you were from. 59:04 Ours was spades, so we had the ace of spades. Interviewer: Sending a message to the enemy, in effect, by attaching the cards to them and then just depositing them. Literally, through the whole jungle because I‘m sure they covered a fifteen or twenty mile area by the cleaning. Yeah, we put them in their mouths. Once we‘d done that and collected a few odd items they were taken away and then the next day is when I got my really best sunburn, my whole body, I mean, I was sunburned because they brought in all this ammo and it is helicopter after helicopter bringing in ammo and a new gun. We had 27 �to rebuild the pit and you‘re talking humping up these stairs we built from these ammo boxes up the side of the mountain. 00 :04 Your carrying a carton, a box—mortars come in a box that weighs fifty six pounds and there‘s three mortars in there and you‘re carrying one on each shoulder and when you got good, you got one crossways, so you had three mortar boxes on each shoulder once you got your strength. I could do two, so the thing goes on, the physical part of it. You‘re running these all day long, opening them up and putting them in—all out tubes—all our guns were –one wall was nothing but mortar tubes, empty tubes, and you put new mortars in them, so that way they were all open and they were covered with a sheet of plastic, but then you‘d pull them out to fire them. Interviewer: Now, did you run through that ammunition before they abandoned the firebase? If you leave the firebase did they blow it up behind you? 1:05 Yeah, we left the firebase and it was just—it was probably three weeks to a month after we were overrun that we left and they took us back to Camp Evans Interviewer: About how long, overall, do you think you were there? Six weeks? I don‘t even think six weeks. No, I would say four or five; maybe it was close to six, I don‘t know how long we were there. Interviewer: After that big attack, did the enemy try again? I don‘t recall anything going on after that. Interviewer: Would they just periodically lob mortar rounds at the base, or snipe at it? 2:05 Generally they‘d send in—they‘d hit you with mortar rounds and then they‘d send in sappers. What they would do-- these guys would run up to the concertina wire and one of 28 �them would just lay himself on top of it and the rest of them would run up in back to get through the wire. That stuff about them crawling through the wire, that‘s, maybe, when they were first starting to do it and they were trying to be a little bit sneaky, but when it came to a sapper attack, they‘d just run up and one guy would throw himself on the wire and if he had a satchel charge , or something, they‘d blow it, but generally speaking they all just carried satchel charges and they‘d run from hooch to hooch or where they thought the TOC was at, you know, to get bigger name people rather than just the lowly grunt on the bunker line. 3:01 Interviewer: Okay, so they didn’t necessarily attack you on the perimeter, they would go in and look for the main TOC? Yeah, they‘d kind of get you going on one side or the other and then kind of sneak in. It‘s a lot like when you get into an ambush. I—after we did Berchtesgaden, they closed that out, and then they probably just bombed most of it into oblivion. Then we went to Eagle Beach and spent a week at Eagle Beach and that was just—it was during a typhoon. They have these big towers you‘re standing in and they‘re like these huge telephone poles, there‘s four of them and then there‘s a deck with a little thatched roof on it and I don‘t know if you‘re watching for submarines or what, but you had to pull guard and I happened to get it the night the typhoon came through. So, we just tied ourselves to the big poles and went through the typhoon that way, and I mean, everything was blowing over. 4:03 At Eagle Beach there were Seabees and there were large petroleum containers and that‘s where they kept a lot of the fuel and that was down by Hue, that‘s south. Interviewer: So that was basically in country R&R or was supposed to be? 29 �Kind of like in country, yeah, but that was actually—they‘d have these Vietnamese and Korean groups come in and sing all these American songs and free beer, all the beer you could drink. It was good food because there was a Seabee base there, so you could go through their mess hall. We broke into it a couple times to get stuff from there. Then we ended up going back up north and going to different firebases. We worked out from a firebase Jack and that was kind of in the lowlands with mountains on one side and flatlands on the other side. 5:09 Waiting for the monsoons you‘d kind of--then we came and kind of circled our area of operations and headed up and took over for the marines up at the DMZ. So, we worked the Rockpile and Camp Carroll. The marines were pulling out at that time, and the 3rd Marine Battalion [Division?] was leaving and we were taking over for them, so we ended up being up there at the Rockpile, which supposedly the marines had been overrun four or five times, or six times, or something. We couldn‘t even stay on it, let alone have somebody running it. It was just straight up and down with this red clay and if you got out of your foxhole, or your bunker, you had to tie a rope around your waist. 6:04 We‘d have guys that slipped right down the side of the mountain, through the concertina wire and everything, it was just so slippery and you couldn‘t get a footing, so how—there was only one way up there and that was on a ridgeline, there was only one way up it and I don‘t know how they built a huge chopper pad on top of it. Well, they had to build this—it looked like a deck, a huge deck from now days and enough to land a helicopter on because it was so pointed you couldn‘t land a helicopter on the top of this mountain because it was just so steep. So, they built this huge chopper pad on top of the mountain, so they could just land and drop supplies off. Interviewer: How long were you staying at these places? 30 �It would all depend, we‘d go in there and work the area and see how much activity was going on, what we‘d run into. Like at the DMZ you‘d kind of see how many—if there was a big force building up there, then you‘d go and work on that, then they‘d rotate you out and bring in another unit. 7:06 The way we worked our unit is we went in first and set things up as far as securing the area, so just recon the area to find out what was going on, and find out if—well work was—well, that was your job. Your job was to walk around the mountains and walk around the jungle and find out who was out there. Find people and kill them, basically that was work. That was what the government was paying us for. Interviewer: As a mortar crewman, would you normally stay on the firebase when the men would go out, or would you go out with them? Well, normally we‘d go from firebase to firebase, we‘d be one of the first ones out to set up the firebase, as far as for security. 8:01 I mean, they‘d bring other people out there digging bunkers, but you‘d go out there and dig a hole to put your gun upon, or your tube, and you‘d just be out there with the line company and they‘d start bringing people in and you‘d move off, and we used to hump our mortars with—we helped a lot with Chuck Hawkins from Alpha Company, and Chuck liked us and he called us his mobile artillery, so we did a lot with humping mortars with him. But, we‘d go out and hump and you may be out for thirty days or four, five, six weeks, and then they‘d bring you back into a firebase and that was kind of our little R&R, and they‘d send another tube out to be with them, so we kind of—we‘d get—it was kind of our refresher kind of thing. Get a break and get our act together, clean clothes and a shower, maybe, and just some normal food sometimes. 9:06 31 �Interviewer: Now, would this just be your squad that would be attached to a unit, or would the whole platoon go? No, it would just be my squad. Interviewer: So, you bring one mortar tube with you and the four guys, and you’re just attached, so you’re the portable artillery for the companies that are out there patrolling, you are out there with them. So, then you had all these people you‘re out fighting against, the Vietnamese, that didn‘t like you, but you‘re with all these U.S. Army guys that didn‘t like you, because every grunt, all the line guys, had to carry two mortar rounds. We had to carry the same thing, but everybody had to carry two hundred and fifty rounds of machine gun ammunition. That came down to us too, we had to carry a rifle, and I started out with a thump gun and then I went to a sixteen, I went to an XM-203 over and under. We had to do the same thing; we had to carry a full load of ammunition, a twenty one magazine if you had an M16. 10:06 Twenty one magazine, a dozen grenades, two blocks of C-4, two claymores, a law, if you were humping the mortar you had to—I was the gunner, so I humped the sight, and Bennett humped the base plate and Dave McCain humped the tube. I mean you're talking—the base weighed sixty pounds, you put that in your rucksack and your rucksack‘s already eighty five to a hundred pounds, so you‘re carrying a lot of weight. It doesn‘t—you get on a helicopter—you get on a helicopter with that stuff and you get off with that stuff, it doesn‘t come later, it‘s not individually wrapped. If you don‘t have it, you don‘t have it, and if you‘re missing one of the parts of your gun, you might as well have left everything behind, because you don‘t have everything. So, we went out with Alpha Company, with Chuck Hawkins, and we humped that and everybody would hump 32 �two mortar rounds and they didn‘t like it, so they didn‘t like us. We really didn‘t get to know them. 11:07 We didn‘t know the line guys that we were with, we were out with them for months at a time, but, basically, it was more along—the only way you really got to know them was trading food and cigarettes, you know, that kind of thing. Interviewer: When you’re out there in the field with the line company, about how many soldiers would these companies usually have? A normal company would have a hundred and twenty I‘d say. We were never normal, you might be out there with forty five, not very many guys. Interviewer: You were also involved in the Ripcord operation and some of the companies that were fighting around that firebase were down to thirty and even fifteen at certain points, not really big groups. We got down to where it was just three of us at the mortar. George left and then it became—Bennett left, they took him out of my squad and took him down to the 1st Cav. 12:05 They needed guys down there and we needed them too. I lost Bennett, and I had—it was my self and McCain. Interviewer: Did they give you a replacement at that point? Did you get a new guy? No we didn‘t, we dealt with who we had, so you became everybody. ―Pops ―was a— ―Pops‖, I was going to tell you about the older guy, he was our FDC, fire direction control, and he was a college graduate, so when he came, we were all nineteen and he was twenty five, so that‘s how he got the name ―Pops‖. To this day when he calls, ―Hey this is Pops‖, whenever we get together everybody calls him ―Pops‖, it‘s him that‘s the whole thing. But, most of the guys that we were with; ―Pops‖ didn‘t hunt for the best spots at the fire range. 13:00 I was trying to remember, he was at the last reunion and 33 �we had dinner with him, Kilgore, James. I didn‘t know his first name until we had a reunion. Kilgore, everybody called him Kilgore and everybody had a nick name, nobody was called—I was always called ―Whip‖, and even today. Everybody had— ―Tennessee‖, I think his name was ―Tennessee", and McCain, we just called him McCain you really didn‘t get to---you were close, but yet you were distant. You didn‘t want to know anybody that well because they were just going to die and you didn‘t need that extra burden, and for me, my burden being the squad leader and those my guys. 14:04 It takes a real load, I mean you don‘t want to be a squad leader because then you‘d have to—I had to not only take care of myself, but I had to take care of them and make sure they had what they needed and I didn‘t want them to get hurt, it‘s a real hard thing. Interviewer: Did you spend a full twelve month tour in Vietnam? I spent twelve months in Vietnam, I had an R&R, a week's worth of R&R, which actually ended up taking up ten days. My ―P‖ training, which was a week coming in country, the three days I sat on the firebase, and the seven days I spent—at the middle of my tour they brought us back for what they call a refresher training to tell us what was going on in the area and who we were up against and what they were doing, the kind of booby traps they were using, and weapons. A total of all but thirty one days I was out in the jungle. 15:00 Interviewer: Now, after that initial assignment down by the A Shau, were you pretty much in that northern part of Vietnam the rest of the time? We just—we took over for the marines up there , cleared that area, got things back in kind of operating order and then they brought in ARVNs, and they brought in people from other parts of the 101st or different units to take over up there and then we‘d go to someplace else. We rotated back down—the problem with the monsoons, the monsoons 34 �kind of go around the country, and now were kind of at the top of the country, in the north and the monsoons are coming back down, so we‘re coming back into the valley, so now we‘re working—coming in like Camp Carroll and then Khe Sanh, and we started in at—actually we started in at the bottom of the country and they wanted to build a road up through the A Shau, so we started out at Birmingham and went to Bastogne. 16:05 All the 101st firebases were named after WWII battles. The firebase, when you first came to it at the bottom of the valley was Birmingham and then you went Bastogne, and we went up the valley. We went up with the line company and they were going to try—we were going to clear the area and they were going to come in with engineers and build a road after we checked out the area and made sure that we got whoever was in there out and find out who they had to fight against, the of battle they will have. Interviewer: That’s still pretty far north in South Vietnam, so you’re not by Saigon or the Cambodian border, you’re pretty much up north? No, you divide the country into five different courts and we were in I court and actually, we were in northern I Corps, so if I Corps is this big we were just in this part of it, and that was just---from way north. 17:04 Interviewer: Now, over the course of this year that you’re with the unit, how would you characterize the morale of the men in the ranks at this point? We were good, we were so good that—we loved what we were doing. The morale—we were never in the rear where we had problems. The cooks and the guys in the rear were the ones there were problems with, the guys in the field; it was a family, and again, you didn‘t want to be close, but you couldn‘t help it, you‘re a family. I don‘t care if you didn‘t know the guys first name, if something were to happen to him—you‘d be torn up if 35 �something were to happen to him. You were close, you were a family and we were good, the whole unit. We went through and we did what we were supposed to be doing. 18:04 Interviewer: Over the course of the year some men will become casualties, others will simply rotate out, so you’re getting the people coming in and you go from being a cherry to being one of the old guys and so forth. Did the unit’s performance stay pretty much at the same level the whole time? Yeah, and because we were good, not because of the quality of the guy coming in, it was because we were good and we could teach him, ―This is how you do it, and this is how to be good‖. How you‘re good is your morale is up, you know what you‘re doing, and you‘re family, I mean a new guy comes in and he gets a ton of ribbing, everybody‘s on him about being a cherry and all this other stuff, and he always gets—the big thing we did with them when we were out with the line companies, or even on the firebase, when you get a new guy in you tell him all these stories. 19:03 This one guy came in and they came in and cut off his—and did this, and all these nasty things, you know, and you got sleep because this guy was up all night, you didn‘t have to worry about pulling guard. This guy was so scared he wasn‘t going to sleep for a week, and that‘s what you did with a new guy and you actually cheated him out of his sleep, so you could have sleep. Normally you‘d get—you‘d be on guard for an hour and then you‘d be off for two and then you‘d be back on, and that was kind of a rotation. Usually there were three guys in a foxhole, or when you‘re out, and eight on the bunker line, generally three guys, so that way you got an hour on and two hours off. That was the total amount of sleep you get because when you‘re in daylight you‘re moving you‘re not able to and when it‘s nighttime you‘re not able to sleep any more than that. 20:01 So, when you get a new 36 �guy you use him and just give him everything to carry. ―Oh, you‘re going to need this and this‖, so you‘d load him down with everything you could find. Interviewer: You were giving him attention. Sometimes new guys would come in and get ignored. No, I don‘t think any of them got ignored, not in our set up, we were different, we were, like I said, we were really different. Interviewer: How much of a sense did you have of what was going on in the larger war or conflict during the time you were there? Did you have any sense of how what you were doing fit into a larger plan? We‘d get newspapers. I‘d usually get a newspaper in the mail and you‘d get an idea of what was going on in the world and what they were talking about, but it never matched what was going on. I always had to write letters home to let them know that this isn‘t really what‘s going on here. 21:00 It might be other places, but where we‘re at—but you never could tell them what was going on either because you didn‘t want to scare the heck out of everybody and in most of my letters I sent home I said, ―Oh, it‘s raining here, the weather's terrible, we don‘t get any sleep, things are nasty, the bugs‖, that‘s all you really dared to say. You couldn‘t tell about what was really going on. Interviewer: Now, did they send you stuff from home? Yes Interviewer: What kinds of things did they send you? Cookies and crumbled cakes and, oh, the church would send you cookies. By the time you got them it was just one big jumble of—but when somebody got a care package from home everybody was there to eat it, and like I said, that was family. You didn‘t—―You 37 �can‘t have any because you‘re not part of our group‖. No, when that was opened up it was gone in a heartbeat. 22:00 It didn‘t make any difference what it was, it could be— we‘d get Kool Aid because the water came in water blivets and it tasted like rubber, so you had to have something to pour in it, so you‘d get Kool Aid, gum, candy, just about anything. If it was food or anything like that, it would be destroyed before—nothing that couldn‘t put up with the weather would make it, because your mail wasn‘t necessarily, it wasn‘t a quick thing and you might get mail once a week rather than once a day. I don‘t think we ever go mail once a day. On the firebase you might get mail once a day because the choppers come in and out. They throw out a mail bag and clean clothes. One of our pictures inside one of our hooches you can see we got fresh onion and catsup and Tabasco and that was some that McCain had gotten. 23:02 Interviewer: Did you normally just eat C rations and K rations? Just C rations, that‘s all we ever had. We‘d get—if we had a body count we‘d get clean clothes and ice cream and that was—you‘ll see on one of my helmets, and on the other guys helmets, everybody had their own little slogan, or saying and mine said, ―We kill for ice cream‖, which was true, because if we had a body count they‘d send out helicopters and they‘d generally send out ice cream and clean clothes. Ice cream would come into— ice cream would come in marmite [cans] and by the time you got it, it was pretty much melted away. The clean clothes would come in a big bag and they‘d kick the bag out of the helicopter in the middle of the landing pad and everybody would run out there and grab it and dump all the clothes, so what you got was what you could grab quick, so if you were the last guy there, your clothes didn‘t necessarily fit you. 24:02 38 You may be �a big guy and have on some smalls until you can find somebody to trade with you wore what you had. Interviewer: Would the clothes deteriorate in that kind of climate? They would rot like there‘s no tomorrow. You didn‘t wear underwear, you‘d get socks. I never took my boots off ever. At night you always had your boots on and your clothes on, even going in the stream, you might take your shirt off to shower in the stream. Interviewer: What happens to your feet if you never take your boots off? Well, you‘d take them off as far as to clean your feet and to wash your feet in the powder room, but then you‘d put your boots right back on. The biggest thing you‘d want is socks. Socks were the biggest thing to have, but the clothes, in a matter of weeks your shirt and pants would be shredded. If you got into any kind of ―wait a minute vines‖, or anything like that—like these humongous rose bushes, no flowers, just thorns, and if you‘d get in those it might take two or three guys to get you out. 25:06 If you happen to walk into one of those and you get trapped it would take two or three guys to chop you out of there with machetes, and you don‘t dare move because you‘d get torn up and anytime you got a cut it got infected. That was one thing, and that‘s why you always had your shirt sleeves down and always covered up, just to keep from getting infected. You‘d get into leaches—you walk through the jungle and you‘d think it was raining, you‘d hear this pitter patter on the leaves and the floor of the jungle, and kind of darker than normal, you think it‘s raining and it‘s leaches falling from the trees. Interviewer: How do you get rid of the leaches? You have a real good friend, because you get leaches in places you don‘t want leaches and you can‘t reach the leaches sometimes. You got some friends and generally you can 39 �put a cigarette on them and make them let go, or you pour our insect repellent on them. 26:06 Our insect repellent was seventy five percent Deet, well now you buy insect repellent and it doesn‘t have more than seven percent Deet. You pour those on the leaches and it would make them get off, but it would go right into the sore that you have, so that would get infected, so that‘s why some guy‘s skin just rots away. They tell you this is going to happen. Because you don‘t have chlorine in the water your teeth are going to go bad and they tell you that, the government tells you this, and if you use the stuff--but you got to use the stuff to keep the bugs off, the leeches off of you, and you‘d see a lot of guys with stings, laces tied around their knees and that and their boot bloused. Of the leeches got past your boots and got up into your secondary defense, which was the string around your knees. 27:06 So, that‘s why you see a lot of those—they weren‘t holding anything on, it‘s protection to keep the leeches out. Interviewer: Is that the kind of thing the other guys teach you pretty quickly when you get there? Yeah, oh yeah, leeches, and checking you helmet and you take your boots off to check those for, not tarantulas, but scorpions, we had some guys bit by scorpions. You set your helmet down and you sit on it, normally, and if you don‘t they crawl in there and you put it on and they sting you. They weren‘t the kind that would kill you, but it would affect your nervous system, and you‘d go into convulsions. We had quite a few guys that they had to ship back and call in a medevac to get them out of there and get them back to the hospital--we didn‘t have the care for them. Interviewer: So there was a lot more out there that was dangerous. Not just the Vietnamese themselves? 28:00 40 �Oh yeah, everything Interviewer: Now, did you ever have South Vietnamese service men working with you either as interpreters, or anything else, that you can recall? At some of the firebases we did, some companies did, but we didn‘t. At one point we had one chieu hoi when we were out on Ripcord. There were Vietnamese out there. They tried to bring in ARVN‘S, but they never went out with us, we never—I never dealt with an ARVN my whole life over—my whole time there. Interviewer: What phase, or part, of the Ripcord operation were you involved with? The whole thing, from April when we went up the mountain—that had been a firebase before and then they abandoned it, and now we‘re coming back to work the valley again. Interviewer: The A Shau Valley? The A Shau Valley and that was the thing, you work an area and then you move because of the monsoons and gave it back. 29:05 At this time when we went back for Ripcord, they had stopped the bombing and the Vietnamese were bringing down a lot of big stuff and that was actually, what they called their warehouse area. We hit some cave‘s where there were brand new clothes in the caves, bunkers, the roofs on bunkers would be three great big logs on the top of the bunkers and three logs this big around stacked on top of one another, so a five hundred pound bomb isn‘t going to make a dent in that thing. That‘s the kind of things you ran into, a lot of bunkers like that. They came in through— they didn‘t mind the monsoons, they weren‘t flying helicopters, so they were building and they built this warehouse area in there and they built all these huge bunkers and they brought all these--122 mortars is what they brought down, big guns, artillery, and they 41 �were bringing artillery down. 30:06 They were bringing tanks down. We were out— one time when we were out with Chuck Hawkins we ran across a phone cable this big around running along the jungle floor. It was that heavy of an area and they had that much communication. I mean, it was huge. We ran into one cave and we found brand new Mickey Mouse sweatshirts. What are the odds you‘d find something like that? Mickey Mouse printed on the front of them. Interviewer: How intense was the fighting around there, in that operation? Ripcord was the worst we‘d ever had. They wanted it bad and we were a big thorn in their side. We had Ripcord and I think Ripcord was about eight hundred and fifty meters high [officially 927]. They had Hill 1000, so they were a thousand meters high. 31:02 We tried to get on 1000 and got nailed quite a few times, got booted back. I‘m going up Ripcord and got booted out quite a few times—finally got up there and they started building—we secured it basically, and they started building the firebase. They brought in another set of mortars, so we took our mortars out and went with Chuck and worked that area. I mean, everyplace you went—we flew in, helicoptered in, we‘re making a combat assault onto this ridgeline, and this huge mountain went this way and the ridgeline came down and the mountain was little on this side and went back that way. The ridgeline was only this wide, maybe a third of the skid would actually set on the ground, and the rest would hang over each end. We‘re getting out, and we‘re getting mortared as we‘re getting out of the helicopter. We‘re getting mortars and we‘re running out and the first thing we run into is bunkers. 32:02 We find mortar rounds laying all over the place, their mortar rounds, and they just left. We came in and they hauled ass, you know. So, we came in and secured that for a little bit, took a bunch of mortar rounds—we had a— 42 �they called in some—I thought it was a marine airplane. It was a prop plane like they‘d use in WWII. They called in a couple two hundred pound bombs, or something, and this ridgeline was so steep you could watch the waterfall, one of the most beautiful things you could see, like we‘d seen in Hawaii, this beautiful fall coming out of the mountain. I mean, it was steep and there was a stream down below and this mountain slid down to it, all just beautiful. We were getting mortared when we came in on that, so they called in this plane. I don‘t know who it was or who—I wasn‘t privy to that sort of thing, but he had a couple of two hundred pounders, I‘m guessing. 33:03 I thought they were both supposed to land out in front because that‘s where we were taking all the fire from. One landed out there and the other one landed behind us and fortunately this thing was so thin and narrow-- if it flat we‘d all have been in big trouble, but fortunately it just went down the mountain and blew up the side of the mountain a little bit, put a little pock mark in it. We went from there—we secured that, and the next morning we got up and we‘re starting to walk out through the jungle and we‘d gotten a new point guy and I find out later by reading in the book Ripcord, reading Chuck Hawkins‘s account of everything, we had a new point man and he‘d only been in country a few weeks and why they even had him up there at point wasn‘t real sure, but it was Wieland Norris, Chuck Norris‘s brother. 34:11 He walked up to a bomb crater and they had a 51 caliber set up on the other side and they killed him and the next man, so I know everybody went down and that was when I really got my first—we‘d been in situations like that before, but that was the first time I‘d got where I could actually see them—they were going to flank us. This was to take everybody to the front, everybody ran up to the front and everybody‘s hollering, ―Shoot up their weapons‖, the two that were down, shoot up their weapons and get up there, but 43 �they were running through the jungle down the side of the mountain and going to come around to the side, and that was the first time I‘d really seen that in action. 35:08 It‘s like a football play on TV, you know, you hear about this play and it was the first time I‘d actually seen something like that work out. We got a medivac in and nothing ever came of it. There was a little bit of fire fight, but I don‘t know how long it lasted or anything. I don‘t remember much about it other than getting the medevac in and getting those guys out. We were out again with them—it was just a rough time at that time. I don‘t remember much about that one. Interviewer: It’s kind of a blur, you’re out there trudging around in the jungle, and you’re under fire periodically? Yeah, because I don‘t know why, I don‘t remember leaving and getting back to the firebase. We went out again because we went out with the line company and I don‘t think it was Chuck Hawkins that time that we went out with, but we went out with another line company. 36:03 I could never figure it out, there was an illumination parachute in the next mountain over, in a tree. We were on Cuoc Mon Mountain and this was another mountain in the valley in between us. We were out there with a line company and it just got to be—they didn‘t like us, we knew they didn‘t, we got a bet going that we can shoot that, we‘re so good we can shoot that parachute out of that tree with three rounds. Everybody‘s putting their money together and just the three of us, we probably couldn‘t come up with more than seventy five or eighty bucks, or something and they were betting all this money saying, ―Hey you can‘t do that you guys‖. I always tell the story that we took it out in two rounds, pretty impressive when you do that. We were down to the Ripcord reunion and Pops was there and I was telling him that story 44 �and Pops looks at me and he says, ―You took that out with the first round‖, and I said, ―Yeah, but that sounds kind of brazen to say that I got it with the first round. 37:01 It sounds better if I say I got it with the second round, it makes me feel better‖. But that was just one—why of all—and I asked him, to this day. One of the things that really got me going when I had my PTSD was the fact that I went back to that day and here we‘re around Ripcord and why are they letting us shoot mortar rounds at a parachute? Now, some way or another we had to get some kind of clearance from above to be able to— unless you under attack in a firefight where you need to fire and waste three rounds. These guys hump these rounds out there, they don‘t like us anyway, do they just want to lighten their load three rounds and why were we even able to do this? 38:00 Interviewer: I’m not sure how tightly a company was going to be supervised when it’s just sort of marching around. I mean, you’ll get orders from above, or something, but you weren’t in an area that had civilians in it, so that restriction wasn’t there. It wouldn‘t have been anything like that, but it was at a time where, when you got into something they said if you call for more artillery they‘d say, ―You‘re almost at your limit, your allotment for the time‖. It doesn‘t make sense, you got all these Vietnamese around you why would you want to—I mean, I—granted we don‘t have lights up there showing them where we‘re at, but I think if a mortar going off don‘t tell them where to look for you what‘s going to, you know. It doesn‘t make sense, it never has made sense. That‘s one of the things I asked Pops and it must have come down from somebody that we could do that. 39:02 We didn‘t have, other than the—whoever was the—I can‘t remember his name, but it seems like it was Charlie Company that we were with. Whether the Captain, 45 �the commander of that company—why would he even do that? None of it made any sense at all. Interviewer: Company commanders rotated through there pretty quickly too, so maybe the guy didn’t know any better. You remembered that it seemed rather strange. You mentioned in the process that you’re starting to see kind of rationing of ammunition and resources, you have a quota of artillery that you can call and that kind of thing. Now, was that true throughout the whole time you were in Vietnam, or did that change over time? At that point in time at Ripcord they were really trying to downplay Ripcord. There was no mention of Ripcord until thirty years later. 40:00 I mean nothing , and now all of a sudden in the VFW magazine we were number one at being—having seventy one guys killed in one battle, more than they had at Khe Sanh and all of a sudden more than were killed at Hamburger Hill, we were number one, Ripcord was number one, in one battle we lost seventy-one guys, and I know for a fact that we lost a lot more than that, we lost almost five hundred, but it went on from April until July. So, in that time, I know for a fact, I got the paperwork that shows the names and places and what happened, but, why the distinction all of a sudden? You never heard about it, but they were trying to keep it low key. They were trying to make it look like the ARVNs were taking over, and the ARVNs weren‘t out there. There were four hundred and fifty, I believe, of us on the mountain top, on the firebase at Ripcord. 41:05 It was about the size of three football fields and I never really seen the other side. You get up and you take a tour, you go down to whatever you have to do, to the latrine or hump ammo from the chopper base, so I only got to see my side of the mountain. But according to books now, that have come out, 46 �there was like four hundred and fifty of us on the mountain and we were surrounded by 7800 NVA from their—and, of course, without the bombing all these things were coming down and we were being mortared regularly every day and every night. Tear gas, every day, every night, rocketed, shot at, sniper fire, every time. I built my hooch underneath the chopper pad. Pretty good thinking, they got PSP planking for the deck , steel roof—I got a picture of me laying there and there‘s the steel roof, while we were building our hooch underneath this chopper pad. 42:07 You build on the side of the mountain and fill sandbags and build walls out in front, so you‘re mountain on the sides, and I got a steel roof and mountain all around me and off at the front. Interviewer: Now, do you have places where you would be actually on the firebase and firing a mortar from there? Oh yeah, you‘d come back—you may go out with a line company and be out a week or two weeks or three week and then you‘d come back to the firebase and they would rotate another gun out if they wanted another gun out. I had the fortune or misfortune, we were liked, they liked us and we were good. I mean, just absolutely good and that was the beauty of it and why—it was hard to leave, leave the country and leave those guys there. I mean, you‘re such a good family and we were just good. 43:03 Chuck Hawkins didn‘t take anybody else, just us and we kind of volunteered, I guess and we liked him. We liked to get out beyond the firebase, on the firebase you‘re always having to do something, where out there it was like boy scouts, you‘re out camping and getting shot at a little bit more. Interviewer: What was it like to be out there at night though? You’re out there on patrol there’s a lot of enemy around in the area. 47 �What you do is you go out and you hump down a stretch of the jungle, depending on if you‘re humping up the mountain or down the mountain, across the ridgeline, or whatever. You‘d hump along and you had the line guys out in front of you and they‘re out there far enough you can—they‘re just not quite out of view, I mean that‘s how far spaced you are, you‘re not bunched up, so you‘re maybe, probably, fifty to seventy five yards apart individually. 44:01 You‘re humping along and you got your weapons and you‘re looking and watching everybody‘s—nobody‘s talking, it‘s all hand movements, hand gestures and that and then you‘d go by a spot and somebody would make the gesture and you‘d remember that spot. Then you‘d keep on going and you‘d wait for dusk and when dusk came you‘d set up, you‘re going to setup your perimeter and this will be your basecamp for the night. Well into, once it got dark then you‘d move back to that spot that everybody pointed to, so that if anybody had seen you set up you wouldn‘t be where they had seen you, you‘d be in a different area. So, in the middle of the night you‘d set up and you‘d spend all night setting up. You‘d set, generally, you‘d sit back to back, so if the guy you were with on guard went to fall asleep and doze off you‘d feel him, he‘d either startle you awake or you‘d startle him awake if you happened to fall off. 45:05 Generally speaking there‘d be three guys and everybody, when you‘re on guard, sat back to back depending on—if you‘re out on something like that you‘d have two guy out so you had less sleep and then you‘re out—you get up in the morning and have your cigarettes and fix your coffee and start on your way to someplace else. Interviewer: Did it matter which company you were out with in terms of how careful they were with all the security provisions and things? 48 �Some were a little lax on the—it didn‘t make any difference to what you did, but it made it a lot more tense and that‘s why we probably volunteered to go with Chuck and his company. We knew what they were and they knew what we were and we just meshed and worked together, because I know a lot of them were lax with the smoking and the noise, noise was a big thing, noise was a real big thing. 46:01 Interviewer: When you’re out there in the Ripcord area would you get attacked at night? Would the enemy try to come in after you? Oh yeah Interviewer: What would you do when that happened? Get as close to the ground as—wish you‘d dug a deeper hole. You dig your little foxhole and wish you‘d dug it a little deeper. ―I wish I would have made this a little deeper and I wish I were a little closer to somebody else‖. If something started happening your adrenalin starts pumping and you don‘t know what you‘re doing, I mean you just don‘t know what you‘re doing. Some guys don‘t do anything, some guys have their weapon and will be firing and some guys will just hold their weapon up and shoot, just to say they shot or something, I don‘t know. I was always leery about not having enough ammunition, so I was pretty conservative. 47:00 When I had the sixty [M60 machine gun] most of those guys, they didn‘t like it because I didn‘t—I was too conservative with it. I was always afraid of running out of ammunition and it‘s not like you can just go to the next corner and pick up—the chopper can‘t get in, you‘re in the triple canopy jungle and you don‘t know if they‘re going to drop it where you‘re at or what you‘re going to have and really you just need to lay down a basic firing when things start happening. You don‘t know what‘s going on, all of a sudden things just get so wild, nothing like in 49 �your wildest dreams. We‘d eat—everything you carried was on your back and most of it was water and ammunition. You didn‘t take a lot of food, everybody, usually, would get a case of C rations and you‘d trade off what you didn‘t like and your cigarettes, or whatever. 48:00 I usually carried mostly fruit and then you ate, maybe, once a day, make coffee and hot chocolate, you‘d have packets of hot chocolate and coffee. You‘d make those and you‘d eat up whatever you could find. Maybe somebody might have killed a snake and you have a little fry, snake fry, or monkey, or something, because you didn‘t—food wasn‘t that big an option and it wasn‘t something you really relied on that much. I mean, you could go a whole day without eating anything and then late in the afternoon have something, a pound cake and some crackers and that would pretty well do you. I think it also made for the fact that you were not always having to take a crap in the woods, you know, you‘re kind of on your own on that. 49:06 That one you have to kind of—―I‘m going to go over here while‖ and ―Be sure to holler this word before you come back‖, you know. I think your body kind of says, ―If you don‘t eat you don‘t crap though, so let‘s hold off a little bit‖. Interviewer: Now, in the time when you’re hit in the I Corps sector there by the Ripcord or elsewhere, are there particular kinds of events or incidences, things that happened to you , that kind of stand out in your memory, or have come back to you, that you haven’t brought in here yet? No, the shooting of the parachute was the biggest thing, I‘d always remember that and there were a few things that happened on Ripcord and I don‘t usually get into them. 50:00 We were getting hit and we were always getting hit, it was just a matter of— things start coming in and how quick you could get--- you‘d start firing back, so you‘d 50 �start firing—we‘d have the mortar up within seconds. It was already set up the guns and tubes are set and the rounds are setting there. They‘d call, ―We need‖, and we‘d have— Delta Company called in and they were pretty much annihilated. I think the CO got a satchel charge in his chest and I don‘t think, at the time we were talking to them on the radio, I don‘t think there were more than two of them that were actually alive at that point. That got you going and then Chuck Hawkins called in, I don‘t think it was Chuck, somebody called in for Alpha Company and they had some gooks coming after them. 51:10 They were fighting them off the best they could and then somebody else was coming along—I don‘t remember how that went. Interviewer: There were units patrolling around Ripcord all the time, so they would get into trouble and they would get fire support from wherever they could get it. Would you talk to them? They would call in for the TOC. The TOC was setup in its own bunker and we had these land mines that came out. The phones like the one I got in my trailer, in fact the picture I got in my album shows that phone and that‘s why I‘ve got them. Those are actual things we—the same things that we used. Interviewer: Would enemy bombardments take out the land lines periodically? Would those get cut or were those well buried? I guess it could happen, it never—nothing like that ever—most of your land lines and stuff were right in the ground along the edge of the sandbags, so unless it hit right on there—52:10 We had a lot of them, the top of my hooch—I‘ve got pictures of the top of my hooch, it was all sandbags and all this dirt would have been inside these green sandbags and the whole top of my hooch was brown because the sandbags were blown 51 �away, so it‘s all covered with just brown. The way we had built our hooch, I could stand—this was the chopper pad—I could stand in my hooch and my head would just barely be just a little bit to the chopper pad, maybe my chin could touch on the chopper pad, and the chopper would be—and you‘d be looking at the bottom and the tail rotors were going there and blowing all this stuff, but we could stand in there and our pit wall was here and the mountain went down like this , but we could stand in our hooch and watch the helicopters on top of the roof be shot up, watch the tracers come over our head. 53:04 You could turn around and watch the tracers come in and shoot these things up, but because of the angle they couldn‘t get us because of the way we were setup. All these choppers they‘d be up there—a Chinook came in one time and the whole side of it just started popping open and it just shuddered and set down, and then they brought in another Chinook and were going to take it apart so they brought in this other Chinook and they hooked up these big straps, pull straps, up to this big rotor on, four blades on the big rotor on the back end of it and the another Chinook came in and a guys standing on the other one and he clicks it onto the bottom of the Chinook and the Chinook pulls up and disengages the rotors and starts taking off. They got to have a kind of downward motion to get a forward motion to come off the mountain, that‘s why you‘re up so high, so they can get going, and they come off from that and this is trailing behind them. 54:05 It‘s probably a three or four inch strap, nylon belt strap, doubled up and everything. They come off the mountain and we‘re watching them and they start leveling out and this rotor‘s behind them, well, it‘s turning the whole time it‘s behind them and that strap is knotting right up like a rubber band knot up, and all of a sudden you could see the tail gunner, the guy on the—they got the back deck down and they got a 60 mounted on it 52 �and the guys laying on it as protection coming into Ripcord. You could see him and I think the whites of his eyes are like this and this rotors right behind him and it‘s getting closer and closer and he must have called in because all of a sudden the guys from the guns on the side, because they got 60‘s out the side windows on the Chinook and the guys from the side are out looking and looking and the rotors coming. 55:05 All of a sudden the Chinook did one of these, and it just nosed up like that, and the propeller from, the props from the other Chinook, came down underneath and you could see the release when they released the cable and that thing just fluttered through the air. That thing would have taken them out and the thing fluttered through the air and almost made it back to Ripcord. At that point they decided to just push them off the side of the mountain and burn them up. They were full of fuel-- they would shoot off a burning light for three seconds because it‘s made out of magnesium and they just tear up right away. That was one thing; you didn‘t want to be in a Chinook that crashed. Interviewer: Did you hear a lot, was there counter battery fire? Did you hit enemy mortars if you could, or figure out where they were? Yeah, if we got a call in--Pops would get the call and they‘d say ‗Troops in the open‖, or grouping, or mass of troops. 56:07 If we already had a VT set up for them, and they were in our VT, we were on them like that. One time they setup on a hill across from us and they were firing mortars at us and we were firing mortars at them. We tried to take out anything. We tried to take out anything, not necessarily troops, because the big things, the mortars and that would do more damage than just troops because everybody‘s fighting with just rifles. 53 �Interviewer: Would they move their mortars around and fire a couple rounds from one spot and then move it? Yeah Interviewer: Were they just trying to draw a bead on your mortar pits and take those out? They were trying to do any kind of damage they could. I don‘t know, generally—at Berchtesgaden they came down the mountain, they would zee the mortars down there, so they were planning on—I don‘t think they were moving their armor, they were on another mountain watching us and they came down the mountain in a zee fashion like that. 57:06 That‘s basically the way our guns were set up—we had a number one pit here and a number two pit, which was George and I, here and the other one was kind of directly below it at the illumination pit, I think that‘s what they were trying to do, just blow anything that was there whether it was a person, a gun or mortar, it didn‘t make any difference, they were trying to cover as much as what they could. Interviewer: Do you remember leaving that? The worst day of my life, it was terrible to leave those guys, I mean I felt bad. 58:03 Interviewer: Did you go out by yourself or did your whole squad go together? No, just, Oscar Utley and I came in together, he was from Texas and he worked for Dr. Pepper down there. He worked for Dr. Pepper, so he used to get a lot of care packages with Dr. Pepper in it, but him and I came in together, same day, and he ended up being a FTC and a matter of fact, I got a picture of him and I leaving my hooch and of course we‘re getting—to bring a helicopter in is life threatening, they had so many of them shot down, I mean just a bundle. What they did, the helicopters would come in and just be 54 �about a foot, or so, above the deck and they‘d kick the ammunition out if you needed it, when you needed ammunition, kick ammunition, food, or grenades, whatever you have to have. 59:02 Oscar and I are standing in my pit and we got everything and we‘re ready to go. We have two days left in country, we‘re leaving on the 12th and this is the 10th. Interviewer: Even though you’d become a short timer you were still out in the field. Normally a short timer is when they have forty five days left and you get a clerk's job or whatever. No, we were out there and we had two days left in country. Now they‘re worried about getting us out of there, because I don‘t know what comes up if you over extend somebody, I don‘t know what happens. I know your tour is three hundred and sixty five days and that‘s pretty much set in stone it seems like. We had two days left in country. They were bringing in some ammunition, some supplies, so Oscar and I ran to the helicopter and we dove over the ammunition they‘re kicking out and got on the Huey. 00:06 The pilot looks at us and says, ―You can‘t go, we‘re too heavy, you can‘t go‖, and I pointed my rifle that way and I said, ―We know how to lighten it up‖, and he took off and we were too heavy. We came down that mountain and the skids were in the treetops. The skids were in the treetops when we came down that mountain, and we went treetop all the way back, because it was too heavy. Interviewer: How long was that before they shut down Ripcord? That was on the 10th that I left and by the time I got home on the 23rd, Ripcord had been over run and they took everybody off and they left everything behind. 1:00 I got a letter from David that I‘ll show you and David tells what they could carry, what they had in their hands. A lot of guys didn‘t get their rucksacks out, they left all the radar units, all the equipment, all the big guns, the mortars, and then they brought in the biggest B-52 55 �strike ever, the United States has ever done, and just blasted the top of the mountain away. There were six guys left behind and they were killed. They were hiding somewhere and didn‘t get out. Then they went back in—I guess after they, even after— there were Vietnamese running all over the place when they were blowing it up, and even afterwards when they went back into there, there were Vietnamese all over the place. That was it—I got home, flew into Washington, Fort Lewis, and I was there twenty four hours sitting in the airport trying to get a flight back to Lansing. 2:06 I couldn‘t get one, we were flying military standby and there was a group of Girls Scouts that were flying just standby, but we bumped two of the Girl Scouts. Well, you‘ve never been cusses out until you‘ve been cussed out by a Girl Scout mother because she either has to stay behind with one of the girls or two of the girls, but they got bumped and they were irate. I said, ―I‘ve been gone a year, I‘m going‖---we got into Detroit like two in the morning, I think it was, it was foggy, it was so foggy you couldn‘t see even across the street. No planes were flying, you could have thrown a bowling ball through the airport, and there was nobody in the airport at two o‘clock in the morning. I mean, this is way back, I mean, this is nothing; nobody, and we got a cab ride home. 3:01 There were four of us coming back to Lansing and we got a cab and we each pitched in for the cab. Interviewer: So, we have basically gotten you out of Vietnam, back to Detroit in the fog and you took a cab from Detroit to Lansing. There was nothing flying and we were in the Detroit airport. We‘d been gone a year and at that point we would have walked. We all got together, pooled our money that we had and found a cabby and asked him, ―How much will it take to get us back to Lansing?‖ He told us and we all piled in his cab, and you couldn‘t see the car in front of you, and 56 �he‘s trying to go down the highway like forty or fifty miles an hour because he wants to get his money, get to Lansing and get back. We told him, ―Hey, we just all got back from Vietnam, take your time‖, and we all had our heads stuck out the windows feeling for curbs and it‘s just amazing we didn‘t have somebody sitting out on the front bumper watching the car in front, you know. 4:12 You couldn‘t see anything—it took us—we didn‘t get back in town, in here, until like five o‘clock in the morning. One of the guys lived out on Cavanaugh, so—I can‘t remember, we dropped them off as we came in and I was—Greg lived out on Cavanaugh, his mother-in-law lived there and still does, so I got out when he got out and took my duffle bag and I lived over here next thing and started walking home at that point. I get home and it‘s probably quarter to six in the morning. I got home, walked up on the front porch and the newspaper guy was delivering the newspaper, so I‘m sitting out in front reading the newspaper. It was my in-laws house and my father in-law came out to get the paper with coffee in his hand and just lost his cup of coffee, he spilled it. 5:05 I was sitting out there reading the paper and that was ―cumin home‖. I went over to visit my folks and Greg got back about the same time. He was the one I went through basic with and we drove home. We met up again, everybody got together and we had a little cookout and cake. I used to hang around with Greg quite a bit and then we both got divorced and he went his way and I haven‘t talked to him in quite a few years. I talked to George, I had—I went over to my mother‘s house, she called me one day, and she said, ―I got a letter here from a Boardwyne, Amy Boardwyne‖, and I never put two and two together, I didn‘t have any idea, and I said, ―Okay‖. Well, when I was in Vietnam, George Boardwyne, he didn‘t have a girlfriend, so I had him, the same age as my sister, I had him sending my sister Joy letters and they 57 �were writing back and forth. 6:05 Well, Amy, his daughter now, was going through some of his stuff and found the address and wrote a letter to me, to my old address, because that‘s where I lived, and my sister lived, to ask if I would mind if George called me, or would I call him and she‘d pay for the call, just call collect, or write a letter or whatever. I finally, about a month later I called him and what do you say to somebody? This is thirty years later, and we talked for a little bit, but we really had nothing in common and I haven‘t talked to him since, and now it‘s been another fifteen years. I was at a reunion and I happened to see a guy at the reunion that said, ―You were at Ripcord weren‘t you?‖ I said, ―Yeah‖, and he had a Ripcord newsletter, one of the first ones and Pop‘s name was in there, John Henderson. 7:06 I said, ―I know Pops‖, and he said, ―I thought you might‖, so I got his name and address from that and I called him. I called him and I‘m laying up in bed talking to him on the phone and ―Pops can tell you every minute, anything that went on. He was right in with André Lucas, our battalion commander and all the higher ups; he was right close with them. There‘s an article that was in Stars and Stripes, I‘ve got in on the trailer, where André Lucas, our battalion commander was setting in Pop‘s chair, which was made out of some ammo boxes and Pops was giving him a haircut. Pops gave everybody haircuts. André Lucas said, ―Where else can you get a haircut and watch an air strike at the same time?‖ He‘s sitting out there at Ripcord during a bombing run, you know. 8:06 André was killed on top of my hooch. His TOC, of course, was right behind the chopper pad and he and his XO were killed on top of my hooch. He was a great guy. From talking to Pops and I didn‘t know André personally, but just from in passing and the fact that his place was on top of my place, being tenants on the same mountain, he was a soldier‘s soldier. I mean, he 58 �looked out for his guys; he took care of us really well. When we needed something he was there for us and you don‘t get that from a lot of them. Like I say some of them above him—we got clean clothes and ice cream from our company commander if you had a body count. 9:02 Other than that, look at you, you can do without food and water for three or four days at least. We did that, we had that happen where they wouldn‘t resupply us and we had to eat whatever you could find. Interviewer: Now, when you got back home, did you talk to people much about what you had seen or done in Vietnam, or did you kind of put that in a box someplace? I went to a couple parties with some friends that we neighbors of—we‘d partied a lot of times before I went, when we were younger and stuff. We used to go—we‘d always have all these parties, and I went to those and nobody wanted to hear about it to being with and a lot of them—there was a gal from Ann Arbor, her and her husband came to parties and she called us baby killers. 10:10 it may sound strange, and I know you hear it, and you may think this is just another Vietnam vet saying BS and I hate it when people say it, that they called us that. She called me that, Greg and I were together partying at Mike‘s house and she was from Ann Arbor—she was a student at the U of M. We never got with the group after that. My kids all went to Everett High School where I went and Nick played baseball and he was a batboy for a kind of AAA ball team here in town, or ABC whatever they call it, so we‘d go out to the municipal, the ball park, and families would be there. 11:09 These guys were older than me and Nick was just a little guy, probably only six, seven, or eight years old and he was the batboy, he was kind of their little mascot kind of thing. He loved ball, he loved baseball so I got him in Raymon, I knew 59 �Rich and Rich, they played all over, we went to Battle Creek and we‘d go all over to play ball. I could go to the ball park and wear my jungle fatigue shirt and nobody would sit anywhere near me; I‘d have the bleachers to myself. There is a real stigma that goes with it. The first psychiatrist I went to see when—I had a bad time with my heart and blood pressure and I went—started in with the VA seeing—getting medicine and stuff and seeing a psychiatrist and my first psych told me, ―Well, you shouldn‘t wear green and you shouldn‘t watch war movies‖. 12:06 I‘m thinking—this is just like six or eight years ago and I‘m thinking--for thirty years before that a friend of mine was in—he didn‘t make the military because he was 4F, he had a hunchback and he was collecting. He collected from the Civil War on up, military things, and he‘s got all kinds—just tons, huge barns full of it, so he would take me to these gun and knife shows because he wanted to authenticate what he was buying for his Vietnam collection. So, it‘s not that the Vietnam—I would buy a few things, we were raising kids, and for three or four bucks I‘d find a dummy grenade or, you know, a patch or something like that and that‘s what started out the collection. Then it just kind of got out of hand, but we would do air shows. He got me—he had a deuce and a half and the trailers and everything and he got me taking my collection—I was helping him basically, I went along to help him. 13:07 then he said, ―Why don‘t you bring some of your stuff?‖ Well, we‘d unload one of the trailers and I‘d put a poncho liner down, or a raincoat, or something like that and I‘d put some of my pictures down there. Well, when you went to the military side , all of a sudden all the military people, and the people who were coming to see the military were coming to look at my stuff, and I thought, ―Well, that‘s really nice‖, they were interested in my things, you know, and ever since I got back and he got me going, I was always 60 �looking for something, and I don‘t know if it was a person, somebody to say something particular, or a piece of equipment, I never—ever since I got back I‘ve had this problem. I‘ve been hunting, hunting, hunting for this thing and that‘s how I kept buying all this stuff, thinking that—I‘ll go to these shows and run into guys and I run into military guys all the time. 14:07 I‘ve been just talking to them for thirty years, but I could never find that answer, but that‘s how everything started and then my second, the VA Psychologist I ended up with, the second one, her and I got to talking and I told her, ―I‘m hunting and I don‘t know what I‘m hunting for‖. I could never figure out what I was hunting for, but what‘s this thing that‘s eating me up and has for forty years? I can‘t get peace; I have not found that thing that draws the line and says it‘s ended, it‘s over. I‘m looking for this thing that finishes it. It‘s like a book and somebody ripped off the last page or chapter, what is it? What is it and how does it end? 15:00 I got to talk to her and I didn‘t like talking to her at the beginning because she was young. I‘m thinking—I‘m going through all this heart stuff and all these problems, PTSD‘s got me, my wife and I are—I‘m trying to kill myself—I mean, yeah, at two o‘clock in the morning I‘m leaving the house here and walking down through the worst part of town carrying a knife, just looking for somebody to fight. I would drink, I drank a lot and I‘d go out and I was funny when I first started drinking, but it just went away and I would drink and not drunk, but really drunk and trying to find this peace and whatever I‘m looking for and then I got ugly and all I wanted to do was fight, so then I had to stop doing that because Jennifer wouldn‘t leave when she was with me. I‘d toss her the keys and say, ―Go home, I‘ll be home in a little bit‖, and then I‘d go on about my business of getting into a fight. 16:05 At one point in time she said, ―No, I‘m not leaving‖, and at that point it clicked in my head that 61 �something‘s got to change. I can‘t do this anymore because now I‘m endangering her life, and that‘s what I‘m—all my life I‘ve been trying to protect people, you know, and it just carries through, it never leaves you, that being drilled into your head back when you‘re nineteen, it never leaves you. I went back to the same thing, so I quit drinking and started going to PTSD groups, and seeing a Psychiatrist. I see one a week, and Angela was the one, I told her, ―I don‘t have time to educate her‖. I told her at the beginning, at the first, I said, ―You know, people who deal with Vietnam veterans usually die. You should really find some other line and get away from the vets, it‘s not healthy‖. 17:00 When I came back my doctor, who was my age, died and the next person I got in touch with, he died. Not knowing, I‘m talking with Angela and she‘s getting me through this thing, she has cancer and she dies, and this was like just a few years ago. I was really-she found my answer and I lost her. Now I‘m starting in with, I got Bill, a new guy that has taken over our group, but if it wasn‘t for the group, I‘d of been back out there on the street walking with my knife again. Interviewer: And you wouldn’t be in a place where you can talk to me. Yeah, and any of the others, you know, that‘s what hold me to my firm space, is I think, ―All the guys that went through this and didn‘t come back, that‘s what my trailer‘s about‖, and that‘s what Angela told me. 18:03 She said, ―Your treatment doesn‘t make anything different for your PTSD, that‘s not the cause of your PTSD, that‘s not bringing on your PTSD, you could get rid of all the green in the world and it wouldn‘t stop your PTSD, that‘s not the problem. The problem you have is in your head‖. We started talking and I said, ―I know when we were in one of the firefights, everybody around me is getting shot or dying‖. I said, I told her, ―I talk a lot to God. I really feel bad because I 62 �don‘t dare to step into a church because I‘ve got a lot of promises I knew I couldn‘t keep and I think he knew I couldn‘t keep them too—God get me out of this, get me to—give us another day—give us something, somehow help us through this‖. 19:03 We were talking about the trailer and that and she said, ―That‘s what you‘re looking for‖. I said, ―What do you mean?‖ She said, ―This is your promise to god, in the trailer. That you‘re keeping all these guys alive, you‘re keeping them well, you‘re keeping them remembered, and that‘s what you promised God. This is your payment; this is how you‘re repaying him by doing this. That‘s why the trailer, you won‘t get better getting rid of all this and staying away from it, that has nothing to do with it. You can meet all the veterans you want, you can wear all the green you want. This is your promise to God and that‘s what‘s in your brain and that‘s what you‘re looking for‖. And I finally found peace. Interviewer: That makes a pretty good place for us to close this out, so I want to thank you for taking the time to talk to me today. I‘m glad we had this time to tell the people. 20:05 63 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WhippleB1172V Title A name given to the resource Whipple, Bruce (Interview transcript and video), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Whipple, Bruce Description An account of the resource Bruce Whipple was born in Lansing, Michigan, and was drafted into the Army two years after high school. He trained as an infantryman at Fort Bragg and Fort Dix, and went to Vietnam in July, 1969. He was assigned to mortar platoon Echo Company, 2/506 Infantry, 101st Airborne Division. His unit fought in the A Shau Valley, then near the coast around Camp Evans, then in the Ripcord campaign. He spent nearly all of his tour in the field, much of it attached to line companies rather than staying on firebases. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-07-27 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fdeddfa81dd5d740577bafc998096848.jpg 02d45a41bdedb6ca562924ba7074adf8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Naval Recognition Training Slides Subject The topic of the resource Slides Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition Warships--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Description An account of the resource Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1943-1953 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50_M2527 Title A name given to the resource Whirlwind British fighter Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Description An account of the resource Whirlwind, British RAF 2SF (fighter), November 15, 1943. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Navy Great Britain Military education World War, 1939-1945 Airplanes, Military--Recognition Slides Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Naval recognition slides (RHC-50) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1943-11-15 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e108473aec5dd0c690f80c30911af417.jpg ab82ad2a72e5960dce80e16a1be8d572 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Naval Recognition Training Slides Subject The topic of the resource Slides Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition Warships--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Description An account of the resource Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1943-1953 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50_M406 Title A name given to the resource Whirlwind heavy fighter Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Description An account of the resource Whirlwind British heavy fighter. Royal Air Force's first single-seat, twin-engine cannon armed fighter. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Navy Great Britain Military education World War, 1939-1945 Airplanes, Military--Recognition Slides Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Naval recognition slides (RHC-50) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e798780919cfe3406a77c068689c0ada.jpg 828a4340d630853e644558cc3dca9d16 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Decorated Publishers' Bindings Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Pictorial bindings Description An account of the resource From the early 1870s to roughly 1930, many publishers issued their commercial book covers with a remarkable variety of graphic designs and illustrations. This sixty-year period saw many artists and designers contributing to this art form. While some can be identified from their style or initials, others remain unknown. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Michigan Novels Collection Regional Historical Collection Lincoln and the Civil War Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-08-30 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>, <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-01 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source Seidman Rare Books. PS3537.P347 W5 1906 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-01_Bindings0070 Title A name given to the resource Whispering Smith Description An account of the resource Binding of Whispering Smith, by Frank H. Spearman, published by Charles Scribner's Sons, c.1906. Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Pictorial bindings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1906 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5cda0b569ae3241fa194ba3eca25fc6f.jpg fdb2f0d4d97b6150fb66139016225c32 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource GVSU Concert & Event Posters Subject The topic of the resource Posters Events Michigan Universities & colleges--Michigan Description An account of the resource Division of Student Services provides programs, services, and environments that enhance the personal, social, and intellectual growth of undergraduate and graduate students at the University. Events including concerts were managed by the office of Student Life. Posters for music, speakers, poetry readings and other campuswide events are included. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Division of Student Services Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/106">Student Services concerts, events, and posters files, (GV028-06)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-07-17 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV028-06 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1963 – 1981 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV028-06_whiteroots Title A name given to the resource White-Roots-of-Peace, February 8, 1973 Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Grand Valley State College Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities & colleges--Michigan Events Posters Description An account of the resource White-Roots-of-Peace, in the Grand Valley State College upstairs commons, February 8, 1973. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1973 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/106">Student Services concerts, events, and posters files, (GV028-06)</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8e6d48b0e5c7c6d3814d83c018200257.m4v 7e4edfe8bd6732feb5ec98285841618d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a869307cf1ab7639c73371219f3f9afe.pdf c810c952e6380577a0b17747f698cf01 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans History Project Interviewee’s Name: Delores White “Brumfield” Length of Interview: (01:09:42) Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project, September 27, 2009, Milwaukee, WI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion. Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, July 25, 2010 Interviewer: “If we could begin with, and boy this is going to get complicated, your name, I mean the full part, and where and when were you born?” My name is Miriam Delores Brumfield White and I was born in Pritchard, Alabama, May the 26th, 1932. Interviewer: “And what is the name that you go by when you sign your check and whatnot and what is the name you go by in baseball?” Today I sign my checks as Delores B. White and when I sign autographs for baseball, I sign Dolly Brumfield. Interviewer: “We got that straight for the record now.” Yes, I hope. Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like?” I was one of three children, I was the oldest of three and we lived in the early years near an elementary school and a block away was also a junior high school, so my playground at the school was where I grew up, where I preferred to play the things that the boys were playing, baseball, football and all the other things. We were on the school ground most of the time. 1:16 Sometimes we were in the neighborhood and I remember some of the childhood games we use to play. Under the house was a good clay pit and we could throw clay balls at each other and this type of thing, but I primarily grew up on the school playground. The junior high school had a baseball field and that was the time when the men use to come and play baseball after their workdays in the shipbuilding era during the war. 1:44 Interviewer: “What did your father do for a living?” My father was an automobile mechanic. Interviewer: “So was my dad, and your mother was a homemaker?” A homemaker yes, until the war and during the war she then took her skills of typing and shorthand into the business world and worked with an insurance company. Interviewer: “Pritchard was a fairly good size town?” 1 �Pritchard is north of Mobile at that time that’s the location. We were really Mobile, but it was kind of a suburb of Mobile, but it’s an independent city known as Pritchard, Alabama. It’s a pretty good size because at that time it was the fifth largest city in the state of Alabama. 2:32 Interviewer: “You were talking about the war, so do you remember Pearl Harbor when it happened and how did you hear about it?” Well I heard about Pearl Harbor because our next-door neighbor had a son at Hickam Field, so that made it very personal and I do remember some of the early happenings and particularly the day of December the 7th of 1941. Interviewer: “I can’t do the math, but how old were you?” At which time? Interviewer: ‘At Pearl Harbor. Well I must have been about nine. 3:05 Interviewer: “All right, so you were old enough to recognize that something big was happening.” Something was happening, yes. Interviewer: “So you spent a lot of time playing in the school—your back yard in a sense, was the school and the baseball diamond and all that. How did that all work out? You’re a girl how could you play baseball?” Well I was called the tomboy of the neighborhood. I did not like paper dolls, that’s what the girls were playing and they would cut out these little paper dolls and have these little tea sets and that never appealed to me. I’d rather have the beanpole and do the polevaulting over the neighbor’s bushes or around the school were big ditches and we’d pole vault across the ditches. Those were the things that were more interesting to me and of course we always had the basketball games and the football games and baseball games and that was the environment in which I grew up. 3:59 Interviewer: “Looking back now and playing baseball with the boys, how good were you as a young kid? How good were you? Were you a good batter? Could you pitch? I mean how were you as a player?” Well, on the playground we played a game called work-up and you got to do everything. They would let me play with them and sometimes they weren’t too happy about it, but they would let me play with them. I remember one incident, I had trouble with a neighborhood boy who didn’t approve of something I did, I have forgotten now, but all the way home from the ball game I was riding my bike and he turned around and I guess he thought I was riding at him and I was not, but he lived next door and he was older and he turned and threw his glove and hit me in the middle and knocked me off my bicycle. 4:51 I’m usually very peaceful, but at that time I was not. Junior Cassidy was the one and I went home and I think I got my bat, but anyway I went back and met him before he 2 �got home and chased him around the neighborhood for knocking me off my bike—he made me mad, but anyway I didn’t catch him, but I was after him, around the house, across the street and he was yelling for his mama the whole way and she came and got him in the house and I was glad of that. Many years later as adults we enjoyed talking about it. 5:32 That was one of the early ones and yeah, I got to play most of the games and most of the times peacefully and that was one event that I can recall that was not very peaceful. I guess one of the maddest I had got—my father was home at the time because we were going home for supper and he wanted to know, “Delores what are you doing”, and I went out of the house and daddy followed me, so they had to come and get me, but his mama got him in the house in time. 6:05 Interviewer: “Now in high school, did you get a chance to play any organized sports in high school?” There were no sports for girls in Alabama, at least in my part of Alabama at that particular time. Mobile public schools had no sports for girls. Interviewer: “So what was your way of playing sports? Was it still like with the children, did you still have these pick-up game type of things?” On the playground, on the playground of the school and during the war they did start some organized, but there were none for me. I had no opportunity and I actually came into the league without any team experience. 6:40 Interviewer: “So right around, I believe and correct me if I’m wrong, right around fifteen something happened to kind of change your life, was it fifteen?” Fourteen, make it back even—how about thirteen? Interviewer: “All right, let’s go there.” In 1946 the all American league came to Pascagoula, Mississippi for their spring training. Mr. Max Carey was the president of the league at the time and the fellas from the shipyard use to let me play with them when they would come to practice on the junior high diamond and if someone was missing they would let me fill in that spot and on occasion they would even let me play a position if the opportunity presented itself and they needed somebody. They were the ones that actually got me started in—when this league was down in Pascagoula it was in the Mobile Press Register that they were going to have tryouts etc. 7:42 So some of the guys went to my parents and wanted to take me to the tryouts, but my mother said, “no, if you think she should go, I’ll take her”, so one April afternoon in 1946 we borrowed my grandmother’s car because daddy had to go to work in our car and she took me out of school and we drove to Pascagoula, Mississippi where I actually tried out. After I had done all the things Mr. Carey asked me to do, the hit, throw, run business, he asked me how old I was. It wasn’t until I had done all those things he asked me how old I was, so I told him, “I’m thirteen and I’ll soon be fourteen”, but he said, “we don’t take the girls that young”, and he went over to talk to my mother and he said, “Mrs. Brumfield, we don’t take the girls this young”, and my mother said, “I don’t want you to take her, I don’t even know what you thought”, so that was my tryout period. 8:36 3 �Interviewer: “I want to stop you here for a moment though. Did you grow up fairly quickly? You must have been a taller girl than most of the girls—I mean thirteen years old looks like a thirteen year old, how would they?” I was very slender at that time and not very large at all. I guess I’m down to 5’6” now, being elderly, but at that time I was probably 5’6” or 5’7”. Interviewer: “That’s fairly tall for a thirteen year old isn’t it? I mean—were you taller than your other sisters?” I guess I was taller, I have a picture at home, a picture with my father and one of the fish he caught out of Mobile Bay and my brother who is sixteen months younger than I am, but I’m a head taller than he is, so I guess maybe I was a little tall for my age. 9:21 Interviewer: “That makes more sense, yeah. When you played with the men before they came to your mom and said that you should go and tryout for this, were talking about men who were already in their teens and twenties playing baseball. Remember this is WWII, these guys have been in the shipyards and they came for all over and one of my favorite guys was a guy from Mississippi who played. He was a tall slender guy who wore brogans, I don’t know if you remember the old high top work boots or work shoes that they played in, we’re talking about school yard teams, we’re not talking about organized teams as such, just teams getting together to play. 10:14 Interviewer: “They must have known you were playing pretty well to be able to play with them?” I was at the ball field every day and when they came over to practice I was there, so they would let me play catch with them and all and that type of thing. There was a place we use to go to, Alabama Village, which was in Mobile at that particular time, and Mobile was one of major industrial areas during WWII. There were a lot of housing areas that grew up at that time and Alabama Village being one of them and where this ball diamond was with the junior high school was called Pritchard Homes, which was another housing project during the war, so they played one against the other, but never uniforms or organized like that. 10:58 Interviewer: “But still, somebody is throwing a pretty hard ball at you and you’re having to hit a ball.” Oh yeah Interviewer: “At thirteen now your mother reveals that you’re glad that you’re not going to be taken, so what happens? What happened, you went back home?” I went back home. Interviewer: “How did you feel?” 11:18 At that particular time I didn’t know, I didn’t know at the time if I thought I was going to go anywhere anyway because I was just trying out. One of the interesting things—there 4 �was a fella by the name of Bill Mitten, as my mind reminds me, who was a local sports broadcaster and also worked at a sporting goods store and I guess I feel like I was meant to be a baseball player because Mr. Carey lost my name and they were coming to Mobile and were asking about this girl that tried out and they didn’t know and I had gone into the sporting goods store to buy a pair of shoes and talking to him about it and he said, “you must be the one”, and that’s how they got my name back to Mr. Carey. 12:03 That year in June, I tried out in April, they finally found me in May there, and in June when school was out, school years were quite different than they are today, but he wrote my parents and wanted me to go to Chicago and put on one of the teams because I had never had the opportunity to be on a girls team and the parents said, “no, you shouldn’t go that’s too far, too much”, so the next year in November I received a letter from Mr. Carey that said they were going to Havana, Cuba for spring training and that they would like Delores to be one of the girls we ask. I don’t know how many he said, I forget. At one time I had a letter, a copy on that and I think it’s in Cooperstown. They said how many girls they were going to take, new girls and that’s kind of the way that all happened. 12:59 Interviewer: “Now had you ever heard of Cuba before?” Oh, I think I heard of Cuba. There was another girl from Mobile, her name was Margy Holgerson and she also tried out in 1946 and was selected and she pitched for the Rockford Peaches. Over that winter, Mr. Carey sent her out to meet me and to meet my parents and then it was time for spring training to be in April and I’m in school. Now, I’ve got to quit school in order to go to Havana, Cuba, so Margy was my chaperone, we went by plane to Havana, first we went to Miami where we met up with all the girls from everywhere else and we flew over to Havana for spring training. 13:45 Interviewer: “Now I want to stop you here. Had you traveled outside of your immediate area at any distance before that?” Only to my grandparents in Mississippi Interviewer: “It was still in the south.” It was still in the south. Both my parents were from Mississippi, but my mother and dad met in Mobile and married in Mobile, so all of us were born and raised in that area. Interviewer: “So now you arrive in Miami and you’re meeting girls from all over the country?” Yes, and Canada Interviewer: “And Canada, what was that experience like?” Very interesting, I have always been interested in people, I don’t know if it was that experience led me to my interest in names, I’ve always been interested in that. It was just a very exciting time, I’d ridden a train, I was in a different area, I didn’t know anybody but Margy and then we were flown over to Havana and to the Biltmore Hotel. 14:49 I can remember very well one of the older girls, there were several of us in a room and adjoining rooms and this type of thing and my problem was that I said, “yes ma’am and 5 �no sir”, which was the way that I was brought up to do and this one gal from Detroit said, “don’t ma’am me”, and that was a strange experience, but most of the girls were friendly enough. I was put with the Fort Wayne Daisies for my spring training that year, but at the end—I don’t want to get too far beyond, but all the tryout business. At the end of spring training I was selected to be put on a team and I was put with the “South Bend Blue Sox “. 15:37 Interviewer: “I want to address two questions. One, you were much younger than most of the girls, is that correct?” That is correct, I only know of one other girl that was younger than I that came into the league later on and she was a month younger than I, but a lot of the girls came into the league at fifteen. Interviewer: “Now did you notice anything that you were treated any differently because you were younger than them?” The chaperone took care of that. The most important part of the experience was taken over by the chaperone. The chaperone determined where you lived, whom you roomed with and this type of thing she was very selective. 16:28 Interviewer: “So she made sure that there wasn’t going to be any kind of razzing or they were going to tease you because you were younger?” I didn’t have any of that, we were there for spring training and we were there for business. There were places I didn’t go and things I didn’t do that the older girls did, but that was all right with me. Interviewer: “How did you deal with the fact that they all talked so funny?” Well, that was funny, that was funny, I couldn’t understand some of them and they couldn’t understand me, but it was just an interesting experience. The spring training in Havana in 1947 was a highlight for me as I look back. So many fond memories come out of that particular time. 17:13 Interviewer: “Well, I guess what I would like to get at is—I know I have been through experiences in my life where when they’re going on you’re just doing them and you’re not realizing that it’s something special or it’s something unusual. Did you have any sense of—I mean Cuba, I’m playing baseball?” I just had a uniform and I could go on the field and I could play and do what I loved to do and it didn’t make that much at that particular time. There are some pictures in Life magazine coming down the steps in Havana, Cuba, just kind of a wave of us coming down that I kind of enjoy thinking about that and the people that I met that was so important to me. I met people from all over everywhere. Margy had gotten me there, but Margy was with the Rockford Peaches and I didn’t see her much anymore and now I got to deal with all these new people. 18:11 6 �Interviewer: “How was it playing with all the girls?” That was fine; in spring training you’re doing everything, the calisthenic approach to things. At that particular time they didn’t think girls should be doing weights or be in weight rooms, that all came much later. That gets me into a whole new area of how the football coaches didn’t want the very idea of you in their training rooms, but baseball, calisthenics, exercises, running sprints, your infield training and that type of thing. Interviewer: “For that particular team in Cuba, what position did you play?” About everything, mostly infield, but I don’t remember being put in any one position, general skill, running, hitting and throwing. Interviewer: “Now you say Life magazine was there taking pictures?” There was a picture, but I wasn’t aware of it, but there is a Life magazine picture of the girls coming down by teams. 19:24 Interviewer: “So, where did you stay in Cuba?” At the Sevillia Biltmore Hotel. Interviewer: “This was a nice place?” Oh yeah Interviewer: “Had you stayed in a hotel before?” No, the interesting thing is I guess, I remember that particular time, there were people riding around in Jeeps with guns, which was very different and this was before the overthrow of the government and we were not allowed to go out by ourselves, we went in groups. One of the interesting things is as I look back is, there were always fellas standing across the street from the hotel and there were balconies out from the room and I had to learn about things like that, but Havana itself was a beautiful place. One of the interesting things to me was there were only two stop lights in the whole city and the congestion of traffic, the sidewalks were about half the size of sidewalks as we think of them and the buildings were built right up to the corners and as I understood it, the first one to blow his horn had the right away—interesting traffic. 20:40 It was very difficult to walk around some parts of the city, but then they had great plazas that I did like to go down. We got to go into the capitol building itself and do some touring. I had a chance in the next year to go back to Havana for some games. Interviewer: “Tell us about the games the first season, the first time, what was it like, who were you playing against and what were the, for example, when did you get up in the morning, what was your routine like?” 21:11 Well, as you can imagine, you’re traveling most of the time, the traveling part, packing a bag, taking care of laundry and doing those types of things, getting on the bus, being on time, we toured going back, when we came back to the states we were doing tours all the way back. I remember playing in Savanna, Charleston, and Roanoke-- places like that. 7 �One of my memories at that particular time, and I must share that one with you, we were in Charleston and my mother and grandmother rode a Greyhound bus from Mobile to Charleston in order to see me because I had been away from home now for several weeks and I had been selected to be on the team and they rode the bus and came in and we had been on the bus all night riding from one city to the other when my mother comes in early that morning knocking on the door and I’m just getting in bed and she’s knocking on the door. 22:13 She comes in and I say something to her and she is upset at the way I’m talking and she said, “you’re not going to play this game if you’re going to talk like those Yankees”, and that was going to be a no, no, but anyway it worked out all right. I think about it, what they must have endured on the bus ride. If you can imagine going on a bus ride all the way from Mobile to Charleston just to check and see if I was OK. 22:45 Interviewer: “Did they watch the game?” They saw us play I guess, but I don’t have memories, specific memories of that. We did play different cities as we worked our way back and then we flew from Roanoke, Virginia to South Bend. Interviewer: “Did you write letters home?” Oh yeah and some of those are on file in Cooperstown. Interviewer: “So really the way you communicated, they knew you really were ok. They had to have wondered what’s going on with my—“ They wanted to find out and they did. Interviewer: “So your first season that you played, and you played in Cuba, and you also traveled right? What happened in the off season, where did you go?” Back to school, I had dropped out of school, so I had to go back and make up some time. It cost me another semester in high school, but at that time we only had eleven years of public education anyway in Alabama, so it just cost me eleven and a half years to finish. I had missed one course that you can’t take the next course until you had the previous course. 23:56 I think one of my favorite stories about that particular time is in 1948, the second year I played, and I wanted to go to spring training and I’m in high school, Murphy High School in Mobile, and I had to get my teacher’s permission to take two weeks out of school to go to spring training. Spring training that year was in south Florida, Opa-locka, Florida, I think that’s right, and all my teachers had to sign permission for me to go, well didn’t all and the worst one was my Spanish teacher and she always made you feel very bad when she would get you before the class. This is a young lady that wants to go and she made it be known that if I didn’t pass that class it wasn’t her fault if I was going to go to Havana, Cuba and be gone for all that time. 25:00 Well, I did go and I did go back to Cuba, spring training was in south Florida, but we went back over to Havana, but when I came back she—I was gone two weeks and three days, so that’s when she said, “this young lady’s been gone two weeks and three days”. I got back on a Wednesday, I went to school on Thursday and we had an accumulative test on Friday for what I had missed and she didn’t realize that when I was in south Florida some of the team mates were Cubans and were helping me with my Spanish and I was 8 �getting to go to Havana with Spanish, so she was really pointing me out that I was doomed for failure, but I made the second highest grade in class. 25:53 After that, the next year when I came to school, I was always late because of the season, she met me in the hallway and took me to the principal’s office to be sure I was taking second year Spanish. She was a pretty tough teacher and she made a point that I had done all these things and missed school and taken out of class. Interviewer: “But you were smart though by getting somebody who actually speaks Spanish to work with you like that because you were actually getting a better education with traveling and with them in Havana, Cuba because you’re hearing all that as well. The kids in school didn’t have that; they just had whatever they had in class. That’s pretty smart.” That’s right, Mickey Perez was one of the Cuban girls that really helped me and we would write letters back and forth to each other and we were good friends, and we never played on the same team, but she was very helpful to me. Anyway, this was one of the toughest teachers at Murphy High School. Interviewer: I’m going to ask you an indelicate question now, how is your Spanish today?” Boco Interviewer: “Ok, fair enough, fair enough.” 27:06 Although I think about it often and if I have the opportunity, I think, with the languages being done today, I would like to go back and try to get with it again. I didn’t have much conversational at that time it was reading and writing and very little, boco. Interviewer: “Ok, I know this is kind of a tough question because it goes so far back and we’re only two years into your career here, but did you at any time in those first couple of seasons think, “this could be my job? This could be my career?” Not long term, one year at a time, because I’m playing ball in the summer, I’m going to school in the winter, I was always late getting back to school, but I was a pretty good student, so I made it up all right until I got to be a senior and I had to have that special class that took me into another semester, but like I say, we only had eleven years of school anyway at that time. 28:08 Interviewer: “Now you were real young, so maybe this isn’t a fair question. Did you have any idea what you wanted to do?” At that time no because I really was so young and so early in my school career and I hadn’t even had physical education until I went to the high school. I think the physical education teachers at the Murphy High School were very influential in that also, the experience I had. A lot of the girls who played in the league and friends that I had were going to college and many of them also, were teachers. At that particular time, that was 9 �one of the opportunities that women had. The opportunities were very limited in what girls do and if you could get the education, you could teach. 28:57 So the emphasis on education was there to go on and teach and I mean my gym teachers were good for me. Interviewer: “So the second time that you toured with the group to Havana and to other places, what was the next step?” Remember, I only went there for two weeks spring training and then I had to go back to high school. Then during that interim period I find out that I’m no longer with the South Bend Blue Sox, I’m now with the Kenosha Comets, so when I catch the train now to Chicago and be on the new team, I have to get to Kenosha. I traveled by myself, by train, to get first to Chicago and then into Kenosha and then I have a new chaperone, but Mrs. Moore in South Bend, I have to give her credit, a great deal of credit, where she placed me, with whom she placed me and the location that she placed me. 30:04 The chaperones were very important, I hope that we’re going to give them good credit. For the younger girls that came into the league, they always arranged for your housing and who your roommates were. When you’re on the road they also controlled who you were rooming with and that type of thing. Interviewer: “So what were there—you mentioned just now in terms of what they did for the rooms and making arrangements and all that sort of organization, but what were their jobs? What were their duties?” The chaperone was in charge of everything. They were the trainer, they were the business person, you had to have the uniforms, you had to get the first aid, if you had to see a doctor they went with you, they made the appointments, they arranged where you were going to live, who you were going to live with. The first assigned place I had was within walking distance of the ball field and with another girl from the south and I thought that was important too, and into a home where there were no children. 31:09 The husband worked at Sears, he was an usher at the ballpark at night and then his wife was a homemaker. One of my favorite stories is my fifteenth birthday; I’m turning fifteen and Mr. Warner had to do the chore of what you did, he gave me the fifteen licks. In those days you got a lick for every year, so fifteen and one to grow on, she baked me a cake and I was able to go with teammates, some of them and I’m the rookie, but I got to go to the radio show for the Knothole Gang, for younger girls that play in South Bend and the sponsor gave me a beautiful sweater and they did birthday things over the radio and that night at the ball park—I always was assigned to sit by the manager, Chet Grant and that night they pushed me out of the dugout and in front of everybody during the seventh inning and they played a song on the big microphone, “I’m a Big Girl Now”. 32:18 “I wanna be treated like a big girl now”, and that was one of my special memories of that year was my fifteenth birthday. They gave me the cake and ice cream and all that business at home with Mr. And Mrs. Warner and then I got to call home and that was special. Interviewer: “That sounds like a magic moment.” 10 �It was a magic moment, it really was, here I had been away from home now and that was May 26 and I had been away since April, it had been about a month or more I guess, but it was a special time. 32:56 Interviewer: “So what was the next step in your career, so to speak, with baseball? You’re now?” With the Kenosha Comets and driving—I didn’t get to go to spring training again until I graduated from high school and that was in West Baden Springs, Indiana in 1950. Interviewer: “So you miss spring training because of school, but where did you then end up with the group? If they were spring training and went somewhere where did you end up?” They had started the league, they had started play and I think this is where I attribute some of the team pictures where we could identify the people on the teams, so of them we couldn’t identify because those were girls that were picked up in spring training and given a chance to come with the team, but in the team, games being played up to the opening of the league, then some of them were let go. Then you had usually about fifteen or sixteen players were all we had. 33:57 That sometimes leads to misidentification of those girls who didn’t make the team, but they were in spring training pictures. Interviewer: “I gotcha, wow, I didn’t know that.” Once, and others I’m sure, I was one of the ones that went to school and got to finish school and then go play. Interviewer. “Did you have any idea by this time about the scope of the league?” I guess as I look back on it, when I went home there was nobody there and most of them back there didn’t know anything about it. As I think back, I missed all the teenage things growing up, going to the beaches and going to the ballpark to cheer for the boys church team and that type of thing, but we didn’t talk about it and they didn’t know anything about it. That league was totally dismissed away from them. 34:57 They had no idea about it. Interviewer: “But they followed other sports like major league baseball and things like that? People talk about games don’t they?” Oh yes, the boys were very active; they had all their teams you know. The American Legion came in and organized all the boys and they had a team and they played and we had church league softball for the boys and all like that, but it was in the summertime and I didn’t get to play any of that. The American Legion came and said girls can’t play. Interviewer: “that amazes me because here you have been playing professional baseball and you would think they would want you on the team.” No 11 �Interviewer: “No way, so that’s 1950 we’re talking about now?” When I graduated from high school it was mid year, remember I had a half year I had to put in. Interviewer: “So you graduated from high school and had you any idea by that time, had your parents, for example asked you what you are going to do now? When you get out of high school are you going to be a teacher, are you going to do this? Did any of that kind of conversation go on?” Oh yes, you had to with the family, particularly my father, because he couldn’t see educating me, I’m a girl. I have a brother sixteen months younger than I am and if anybody goes to school it will be my brother. During that time I’m saving my money and with my grandmother’s help, and my mother, I got to go to college. My brother went right out of high school into the Air Force and stayed in the Air Force, that type of thing, so he never wanted to go to college and my dad in later years apologized to me about that as he was moving me –I’m getting all this in later times and I hope you can put it all together later, but the year I got my doctorate and he was helping me move back home, after that he apologized to me for that particular time. 37:03 Because of the league, and the point I want to make is because of the opportunity I had to play in this baseball league, that I was able to make money, I was able then to get my education and that was so important to a lot of the girls that played in the league. If it had not been for that opportunity there would not have been a college education for many of us, it certainly was for me. Interviewer: “Let’s go, I’m glad we went there, but I want to go back to 1950. Did you play for another team after that or are you still with the original team in 1950 after you graduated from high school? Well let’s see, I was in Kenosha until 1951. I played four years in Kenosha. I would go to school and I would go back to Kenosha, I would go to school and back to Kenosha and then in 1951 I started in college, 1950 really. 38:08 I ended up graduation in January of 1950 and I started college in September of 1950. Interviewer: “I’m trying to get in my mind the chronology here. Did you play professional baseball while you were in college?” Yes Interviewer: “Ok, that’s where I want to go next.” I’m in school, I’m at the ballgame, I’m in school, I’m at the team and that’s what I did. Interviewer: “So where—the Kenosha team was a traveling team though, right?” No Interviewer: “Ok, now I’m getting back on track here.” No, the Kenosha team wasn’t established, the last year that it folded, 1951, it did travel a lot. 12 �Interviewer: “Let’s go back to 1950, you’re going to college, but now you got a team that’s staying at home.” See, I’m in Alabama when I’m in school. Interviewer: “Ok, college in Alabama?” I’m in college in Alabama and then I go to Kenosha and then when I went to Fort Wayne the same thing was true. My first meeting with Jimmy Foxx I very well remember because I didn’t go until school was out and again school was not out until about the first of June and then I reported just as soon—usually it’s one day apart, I’m out of school one day and I’m on the train the next I’m at the ballpark, that type of thing. 39:25 The first day in 1952 when I went to fort Wayne, I met with Jimmy in the dugout and it was the first time I’d ever seen him and I didn’t know that much about him and the night before they had let one of their rookie players go to another team and it opened up a position at second base. I had never played second base, but Jimmy said, “you’re going to be our second baseman”, and I said, ”I’ve never played second base”, and he said, “You’re our second baseman”, and that whole year was one of my worst years that I remember, but it was a good year in many other ways. 40:09 Interviewer: “What made it the worst year and what made it a good year in other ways?” My baseball results were not good, batting was down, I had led the Kenosha team in batting and I was not doing that now, I’m in a strange position, but the strange position was that I was between the best short stop in the league and also the best hitter in the league. In 1952 Dottie Schroeder was the shortstop for the Fort Wayne Daisies. The only girl to play all twelve years in the league and Betty Foss, who was on first base, a great big girl from southern Illinois that was the league hitter in the league. 40:51 One of my favorite stories, Betty gets sick and Jimmy says, “Dolly you have been wanting to play first base”, and I told him I liked first base, “you have been wanting to play first base, so this is your time”, so that night we had a double header and I got to play first base and I had the best hitting, I think I went six for eight or something like that, and then the next year they put Betty in right field, she’s still a great hitter, and he put me on first base and now I outhit her and after that I was on first base. I earned my spot to be on first base. 41:34 That’s one of my favorite times. I had a bad time—when you’re not comfortable in the field it affects your batting. Interviewer: “I was going to say, you either earned the place or Jimmy finally figured out where to put you.” Well, Bill Allington the next year, but that experience Jimmy probably did have some influence in that particular event alone, but that’s one of my favorite times. Interviewer: “What were some of the highlights that you can think of during that period of particular games, not only for you, but maybe seeing another player make 13 �a play that was really amazing. There were a lot of them, but any one that you can think of?” It’s hard to come up with just one thing. There weren’t that many home runs hit because we were playing in big fields. I have a ball at home that is signed by Jimmy Foxx and it’s my prize possession right now and I’m trying to decide where I am going to want it to go. 42:40 August the 26th , I think it was, of 1952 when I hit that home run and I’ve got the ball and the teammates signed it, but Jimmy also signed it and he didn’t sign all that much. That’s a—but you’re playing with great girls, girls that were really great players. I played with Audrey Wagner in Kenosha and the influence again, she went on to be a medical doctor and I think the achievement of some of the girls following the time we were in the league was very influential to me, interesting to me, what all they went on to do. 43:20 Interviewer: “You know what interests me is that you were so young and that’s a very impressionable age and impressionable can go with who you are hanging out with. It can be very good or it can be very bad and in this case you had all of these incredible examples of girls that were doing really remarkable things and you kind of had to keep up to make sure you were being as good as they are, that’s got to be good training.” Well, so many things go back to, not only time on the field, but also time off the field. One of my memories of Mrs. Moore, who was the chaperone in South Bend, we were in Kenosha in the hotel, I think the Dayton Hotel, you’re in and away from home and with not much to do and they played cards, so they were playing cards and playing poker and I was just watching, I wasn’t playing and Mrs. Moore came in and got most upset with all them and got me out of that room, I wasn’t supposed to be doing that, so that was one of my early remembrances. 44:22 Mrs. Moore took a very close account of me that whole year. In fact, during practice when the first team would practice, Chet would let them go home and keep the rookies and the girls that played in the Knothole Gang, the younger girls in town, so some of my best friends were the younger girls in town. I wasn’t able to go with my teammates to the places they went for their entertainment and everything afterwards, but one family particularly, the McCrackens, that took me in. Their youngest daughter, my age, we became best friends and that’s another thing that will carry over to other years when I’m in Kenosha or anywhere else, it was not uncommon for that family to show up to support me. 45:11 Interviewer: “Your personal fan club huh?” Personal fan club, that’s right. It was very important to me because I could walk from where I lived to their house. I never had a car when I was in the league. I always depended on somebody else for transportation. Interviewer: “Let’s talk about the fans in the early days and then maybe later on in your career, how were the fans?” 14 �Great and you had selective ones, but overall the fans were very supportive, they really were. You made friends and like I said, I made some friends younger out in towns where I played because I was so much younger than the other girls. Interviewer: “In the early days in particular, the most you had ever had in terms of an audience when you were playing with these baseball teams when you were a kid, very different than going into a ball park where there’s paying customers out there. Can you recall in the early days what it must of have been like to walk out, and this is not the way it was when we played at home?” 46:18 I don’t really remember being awestruck in that way, it was just because by then I had been with the team. You go by bus, you get on the bus, you get off the bus and you’re playing seven days a week, double headers on Sundays and holidays, you didn’t have much off time. The off time you had was to go get ready, pack and go again. I don’t remember that, but certain fields you liked better than others. The Grand Rapids field always had this big factory in right field and that was a problem. The Rockford Peaches played in a—had a football stadium for part of their stands. Different fields I remember, Playland Park in South Bend had an auto racetrack around it, so those were kind of strange situations there. To be awestruck by—because you come out early before the fans get there and two hours before the game you’re on the field. 47:18 Two hours, and you had batting practice, you had infield practice, you had all of that before the game. Interviewer: “How about the press? Were there newspaper reporters around at any time? TV cameras or things like that?” We didn’t have TV cameras in those days, but certainly the radio people, there was an announcer at every park. Then there were reporters, yes they always had coverage of the local games in the papers. Interviewer: “Did you ever get interviewed?” I don’t remember so much being interviewed. Certain games were important, had a good night, maybe hit in a winning run or something like that. They always had those. Interviewer: “Did you have a scrapbook?” My mother did more so than myself. A lot of the things that I had in that scrapbook are in Cooperstown. 48:18 They have a file on me in Cooperstown that has a good bit, my personal letters to my family and that type of thing. Interviewer: “So mama was proud huh?” She was proud. Interviewer: “What was the last season you played? That was fifty?” 1953 Interviewer: “So in 1952 you are still playing, you graduated from high school, 1950-1951 you’re going to college and how many years of college?” Four 15 �Interviewer: “Four, all right, so all through the first three years of college you’re playing baseball?” Yes Interviewer: “By that time did it almost become a routine because you’re—every year you’re doing this, you’re going off to play and then you’re going to college?” Yes, and then it’s time to graduate from college. Now the year before, even though it was my best year in the league, I had some health problems. Primarily anemia. [I] didn’t eat right as a kid, all those years that I didn’t eat right, I had severe anemia and the chaperone had taken me to get me booster shots and all the things they do for anemia. 49:33 the first night they did that I was a leadoff hitter and I don’t remember the first inning of that game and going down the steps I passed out, so after that anytime I had to take those shots for anemia, I’d get a day off, but that type of thing. Memories of that type of event, the chaperone would take you to the doctor for an appointment and that kind of thing. 50:03 Interviewer: “You say it was one of your best years.” My best year of hitting, of playing first base, I’m more comfortable and Bill Allington put me as lead off hitter that was another one, so it just kind of worked out that way. Because of that year, though I’d had a good year—Bill Allington, I was in the game and I was on third base and I told him I wasn’t going to come back and he said, “are you sure”, and this type of thing because he wanted me to come back, but anyway, I didn’t go back. It was time for me to go on with my career at that time, I was looking toward teaching and getting started in teaching, that’s another whole story as to why. 51:01 I had a job so early after—I had an uncle who was superintendent of schools in Mississippi where they did play girls sports and he had another superintendent that was needing a basketball coach at that particular time and a teacher , so he helped me get an interview during spring break that year, so I made my interview and I had a job before school was even out, but then I didn’t go back to baseball. As it turned out 1954 was the last year of the league, so it worked out for me. 51:33 Interviewer: “I want to get into that. Was there any indication in the last year that you played that things were different, that the league may not continue on?” Yes, the number of teams that were in the league had changed, they had the traveling teams and I don’t remember too much about the history of that part because I’m playing every day, I’m moving every few days, so I really wasn’t aware of it as much as it actually was happening. It just wasn’t a part of my everyday and I wasn’t one to be that concerned about it, I was just playing every day. 52:12 Interviewer: “I had asked you earlier, when you were in high school did you know what you wanted to do, and of course you said that at that age you didn’t. When was it that you realized that you knew what you wanted to do that wasn’t baseball, but your career?” 16 �The teaching, the fact that in that the physical education teachers did the things that I liked to do and some of the girls that played in the league that were teachers, were going to college, for one thing they motivated me to go to college and to want to teach. Interviewer: “That was not coming from your family? Your family was not saying--your father, as you said and there’s no blame attached, I’m not trying to— but basically he just wasn’t thinking you were going to go there, but you saw the example of these other women.” That’s what motivated me. Again, it wasn’t that my father didn’t want the best for me and I tried to bring that out. It wasn’t that he didn’t want me to do well or have the best of things, but I had a brother and he was supposed to get all of that. 53:13 Interviewer: “So there was that period then in transition, how difficult was it, and I know this isn’t even a fair question, but how difficult was it and was there an actual time that you decided that, I’m not going to play that next year, I am going to go and be a teacher? I don’t know if there was any specific time, but probably my senior year in college. Again I went to a women’s college at that time, that was the way things were done, a women’s college, majored in physical education, no sports other than intramural sports, there was nothing back home in the way of sports and I had to go to Mississippi to even teach sports. I taught in the Mississippi schools because they had girl’s sports, particularly in the country schools and that’s where I started, but there weren’t any opportunities for girl’s sports. 54:15 I think that’s one of the things that’s been passionate for me, for the girls to have the opportunity to play sports. I didn’t think it should only be for the boys and I still don’t think it should only be for the boys. I think there should be opportunities there and that’s a whole other story, so get me out of that one. Interviewer: “Did you have any experience in basketball before that?” No opportunity in basketball. Interviewer: “But you’re going to be teaching basketball?” In college I learned because I had classes. I had basketball classes and in our physical education we had activity classes and theory classes in all of sports, so I ended up coaching basketball, track, tennis, things of this nature because that was the academic and background training that I had, but no practical coaching things except intramurally 55:09. Interviewer: “Now, during your college days did your fellow students know that you played professional baseball?” It kind of came that way, but I was late getting to college the first year, remember I’m playing baseball every year, I’m always late getting to school. By the time I got to school 17 �the person I was supposed to room with wasn’t even there and I’m getting another room mate. That type of thing was always a problem—I was late getting to school, all the introductions and orientations had already been done and I come on late, so it was always a little bit of a problem and other than some of my closer friends, people who were in the academic area, where most of my classes were, they knew, but that was a—and they didn’t understand, but they knew I was coming in late. 56:08 Interviewer: “Didn’t happen to have a Spanish teacher in college who gave you trouble too, did you?” No, no more Spanish. Interviewer: “ I want to go back to the conversation that you had, if you can recall it, with the manager, it wasn’t Jimmy, it was the new—who was the last manager you had?” Bill Allington Interviewer: “What was that conversation like where he tried to convince you to stay?” The biggest part was that one night, that one night on third base in the middle of the game, that was kind of strange. It must have been a timeout or something and he was talking to me and I guess he had gotten word that I wasn’t planning on returning the next year and he wanted to talk to me about it. Now Bill was the one that after the league folded, that put together a team of players and they travel and played against the men. 57:07 I had been out of the league for a whole year teaching and he still was contacting me to come and join that group, but I didn’t, I said, “I’m teaching, I’m happy, I am going to stay where I am”. I had enough of that traveling around. You know, seven years of suitcases and traveling and hotels and that type of thing. Interviewer: “What was his main argument about why you should stay?” He wanted me on his team in some position maybe and at that time I was having a good year and he certainly had been aware of it from the years he had been in the league as a manager. In my opinion, he was the best baseball man that I played under. Chet Grant was, I think, very good for me because he was a teacher. I think my memory of the things I’ve learned that he was a quarterback for Knute Rockne at Notre Dame, so his background is in the part of sports. Johnny Gottselig was my other manager in Kenosha and he was a Chicago hockey player, but he was a scout for Mr. Wrigley that’s how he got into the baseball part of it 58:23 Jimmy was a nice guy and he got much of the publicity that year, but Bill Allington, who had been a minor league player, was the best baseball man—he taught you baseball. Interviewer: “During the period of time that you played, through our conversation here, you were always concentrating on the playing and of course you had school, then playing, then school, was there any sense during that period that you were 18 �doing, and your fellow players were doing, anything remarkable beyond just playing baseball? The fact that you were good at playing baseball?” Just having fun, we were just having fun, I made a lot of friends, I had friends in the towns where we played, got to do things that other people didn’t get to do, opportunities that they didn’t have and when you go back home, nobody knows where you have been or what you have been up to , they just know you’ve been away. 59:24 It was a strange happening in that respect. Interviewer: “When in your life did you realize that other people recognized that period of time as being very special? You knew it was special because you played, but now we’re talking about a totally different thing. In history, people are looking back on the period and saying that this was so unique and had all this impact, when did it dawn on you, or did it dawn on you?” I don’t think it dawned on the people in my environment, where I lived. I’m in south Alabama, Mississippi where I taught, now in Arkansas where I live—until the movie came out, the movie “A League of Their Own”, until that came out and also the recognition by the Baseball Hall of Fame in 1988 after we became an organization or association, we tried to help with that and I think that was a first step there and that’s how Penny Marshall got a hold of things too was showing up in 1988 when we were there doing that recognition at Cooperstown. :39 Interviewer: “The movie portrayed, and I don’t want to get into the movie at this moment, but Geena Davis’s reluctance to go to that, what was your reaction to being informed that you’re being inducted? Did you get invited to go?” I was there. Interviewer: “Can you see where I’m going with this? I want to know, what was your reaction to this happening and did you say, “Oh, I’m going to go”, or did you think about it?” Well, I guess the interesting part is that one of my colleagues that I was teaching with, I invited her to go with me. Of course she didn’t know—she had played sports in high school and she was a physical education teacher like myself, but I invited her to go to Cooperstown with me and I think that was exciting. 1:29 I had been to the first reunion in Chicago; even my husband went with me in 1982 when we went to that. It’s kind of hard to put it all together in your head just exactly, but Betty Wallace, who is a colleague, went with me to Cooperstown and was with me during that. I was just kind of the kid on the block, the older gals were there, but I was one of them and that type of thing. 2:01 We traveled together and had to fly into Buffalo I guess it was and get a car to drive to Cooperstown because it wasn’t an easy place to get to and got to be there with people I hadn’t seen, it was an exciting time. Interviewer: “What was your reaction to going in there and seeing all that stuff? There were displays.” 19 �I remember being at the display area when—I think that is when it was really taking hold, the display area in Cooperstown. You would sit around and hear everybody talking, That’s what Penny Marshall was doing too with her tape recorder. When you get together you talk about old times, what it was like, where you lived, what you did and that’s when it really kind of—that was something kind of special, but until that was made into a movie and somebody else knew about it. 2:58 Now, in the areas where the teams were in Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin and Michigan where the teams played, a lot of the fans were still there, but in my part of the world, they had never heard of it. You would say something, I remember fellas I coach with—“no you didn’t do that, that didn’t happen, you telling me one” and that type of thing. I found one fella I coach with that finally said, “Ok, you’re an athlete”, because girls didn’t have that much of a background at that particular time, so I got to go down and workout with the team. Everywhere I’ve been, I’ve been initiating girl’s sports. That’s something that I thought was important, so I’ve been able to be active in that. 3:51 Interviewer: “Why did you go to the first reunion?” I just wanted to see everybody. That one in Chicago and my husband was willing to go with me, that type of thing and he had never heard anything about it either. Interviewer: “What was his reaction?” He went with me to support me, but he didn’t really know anything about it. Interviewer: “You didn’t talk about it?” No, you don’t, you would go home and you wouldn’t talk about it because there would be no one there to talk to about it. You didn’t want to go around broadcasting all the time unless somebody asked you a question or something, you just didn’t talk about it. It was another world. Even the boys I grew up with playing ball on the playground in later years, they didn’t know where I’d been either and we had a fellowship of those people called “The Pritchard Kids” for many years. Just last year we lost contact and I still hear from some, but we use to have an annual reunion with those kids we grew up with, went to church with, these were church people and that was another era. 5:00 Interviewer: “Two more for you, one is, how did that experience of playing professional baseball affect you personally, in terms of the person you are today? What was it about that time, was there any effect that happened during that time that kind of determined or molded or shaped the person that you are today? Certainly, The travel, the exposure to girls from so many different places. I have always really appreciated that, I have always been interested in people and one of the things about teaching, I’m interested in people and opportunities wherever I’ve been to provide sports, particularly for girls, because that’s been my area, recreation. 5:56 The fact that you can help make it better for somebody else, I think that’s a part of it too. I still am a sports nut I guess you would say because wherever I’ve been, I’ve supported all sports and just tried to make things better for the next group coming on and I’ve started programs, a softball program where I have to start and they won’t let us use the little 20 �league field to play on and we have to go in front of a dormitory at the university where there’s no—we made a field out of it. Even to go to the little league field and we have to wait until the boys get through in July before they would even let us go on the field and to put up with things like that. 6:48 Some of the girls that have now gone on to be productive citizens and are doing good in our community, they came from those little girls softball programs that we started and from that the women’s programs grew from that. To see that makes you feel good, that the girls are having opportunities today to do things that they never had a chance to do before. 7:09 Interviewer: “That leads me to my last one. This is kind of the big one, the big question. In terms of history, American history, history of we as a people, where do you think your little group fits in that whole big scheme of things?” The changing lives of women. I think WWII was the really big one for my generation and the times changed, women had to leave the home and the kitchen and the statement in the movie that stands out, “now that the men are coming back you women get back in the kitchen”. I’m sorry, you’ve opened the door of opportunity and were not in the kitchen, we’re out in the world being productive and doing other things and having other opportunities. 8:03 Opportunity is the key word; you have to have an opportunity. What would my life have been without that opportunity that someone saw something in me that they thought would do something in baseball and I go the opportunity to do that. Did I have any other skills that would have gotten me the door that opened for me to have an education, to travel and meet all these people, to have friends all over the country and to travel to Cuba? It’s opportunity; I don’t care what it is that you do, if you don’t have—if you have the greatest of skills, but you don’t have the opportunity to use it, it is completely lost. We have to have the opportunity to do things and we’re still on the threshold of that in women’s baseball because we’re trying to get it into the Olympics now and I’ve been trying to support the girls who are trying to play baseball today and we do have a number of them. 9:00 Some of them are right here in this program we’re doing today. There is a Team USA Women’s Baseball and I’m very proud of that and I’m hoping that one day we’re going to have the women to play that again because it’s ok, if it’s ok in one sport and someone is just written me some things in e-mail saying, “girl’s just want to play baseball too and softball is not the same game”. Interviewer: “Thank you so much.” You’re quite welcome. Interviewer: “This is wonderful.” 21 �22 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_DWhite Title A name given to the resource White, Delores Brumfield (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource White, Delores Description An account of the resource Delores White (nee Brumfield) was born was born in Pritchard, Alabama on May 26, 1932. Growing up, she got her start playing baseball with the school and neighborhood kids. Following tryouts in 1946 she was told by Mr. Carey that she was yet too young. Apparently, after her tryouts Mr. Carey had misplaced her name and sought her out until he found her one day in a store. In 1946, she made the trip to Havana, Cuba. That same year she was placed with the Fort Wayne Daisies during her spring training period. At the end of spring training, she was chosen to play for the South Bend Blue Sox in 1947. She played with the Kenosha Comets from 1948 to 1951. She then played the 1951 and 1952 seasons with the Fort Wayne Daisies. During her league career she played first, second, and third base. Her career highlight was on August 26, 1952 when she hit a home run and it was signed by her teammates and Jimmy Foxx. One other highlight she had during her league career was her spring training in Havana. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-09-27 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e8e776964b01f1e11fc8cc59cf764ae7.jpg a0be2f9f1b963a3f7257d2e487eae6b8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WhiteJonathon Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource White, Jonathon Description An account of the resource Jonathon White Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/954152309d75bb9919a777a29bfeeb06.m4v 72958db3f978028e34f16fca33735750 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2f25470b1c9439be605248e50b1ff2ea.pdf 6e7856d97e9b988a11e58435d296e201 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Pia White Civilian (Japan) – World War II 1 hour 47 minutes 28 seconds (00:00:13) Birth & Parents' History -Pia was born in 1926 in Rome, Italy -Father (Kurusu Saburo) was Japanese and her mother was American -Father served as a diplomat for the Japanese government -Stationed at the Japanese consulate in New York City -Pia's mother's older brother worked for the Great Atlantic & Pacific Tea Company -He gave an extensive tour of the facility to the Japanese delegates -In the process he befriended Pia's father -Pia's uncle invited Pia's father to dinner which led to Pia's mother and father meeting -At the time, Pia's mother was a 19 year old student at Columbia University -Mother and father began dating and eventually got married -Father was transferred to Chicago -Pia's older brother and sister were born in Chicago -Family stayed in Chicago for three or four years -Family moved to Japan, then her father was sent to Rome -It is at this time that Pia was born -While in Japan, Pia's father's family welcomed Pia's mother and taught her Japanese customs (00:07:21) Early Life -When Pia was five or six months old the family moved to Greece -After Greece they traveled to Germany -From Germany they returned to Japan -Her earliest memories are of being in Lima, Peru -First languages she learned were Italian and Spanish -When she was six years old the family moved back to Japan (c. 1932) -She was enrolled in school, but couldn't speak Japanese -Realized other students were talking about her which prompted her to learn Japanese -Parents spoke English to each other -Lived in Japan for four years then moved to Brussels, Belgium (c. 1936) -Entirely different environment -Placed in a Catholic school run by nuns -Drank low-alcoholic/non-alcoholic beer during lunch instead of water -Brussels had poor water quality -Not many children lived in her neighborhood -Older brother had stayed in Japan, and her sister was too old to be a playmate -Learned to enjoy time alone, and spent her time reading and making things -Befriended two Brazilian girls -Learned French at the school in Belgium -Stayed in Brussels for three years (00:19:28) Return to Japan Pt. 1 -Japanese government chartered a ship to bring Japanese citizens and delegates' dependents to Japan -Her family traveled to Naples and boarded the ship there -It was a long voyage �-Traveled through Mediterranean Sea, to Suez Canal, through Indian Ocean, to South Pacific -Befriended a sailor that taught her to knit -Father stayed behind in Europe (00:21:52) Rise of Fascism -She stayed informed about world events -Sneaked into her father's office in Brussels and learned about events happening in Europe -Knew about the rise of the Nazis and other fascist regimes -Knew about the mistreatment of the Jewish people -Mother went to a Jewish doctor in Frankfurt, Germany -He told her about the discrimination and hostility he experienced as a Jew -Said that Jews were trying to get out of Germany, or better yet, Europe -Remembers the wife of a Polish diplomat talking about how Poland was in danger (00:25:27) Return to Japan Pt. 2 -Took two months to reach Japan -Stopped at Alexandria, Egypt, and went to Cairo -Saw the Great Pyramids of Giza and the Sphinx -Stopped in Singapore (00:27:55) Life in Pre-War Japan -Landed at Osaka where her brother worked, but she went to a Catholic boarding school in Tokyo -Didn't like the school because of the strictness of the nuns -For example, the girls weren't allowed to talk or make noise after dinner -Eventually begged her mother to make different arrangements -Started living with a paternal aunt in Tokyo -Only went to the school during the day, and went home at night -Nuns allowed her to teach the French class because she spoke French -A baron's brother donated a mansion to start a school for Japanese students that had lived abroad -Began attending that school -Taught by college professors -Received a college-level education while still in high school -When they returned to Japan, the war with the United States had not started yet (00:32:33) Beginning of War with United States -Lived at the family's summer cottage in a mountain village near Tokyo -Family had been renting their house in Tokyo -When her father returned to Japan (after the war began) he lived in the house in Tokyo -When the war began a lot of families moved to the village to avoid bombings -Took a train to school -She and the other older students taught the younger children basics (reading, math, etc.) -Enjoyable experience -When the war began foreigners were treated rudely in major cities -Men were drafted -Food became scarce which made breastfeeding difficult for young mother -Her mother started a clinic for young mothers -Had a doctor come once a month to help the mothers and their babies -She helped her mother collect old kimonos to be made into diapers -Japanese adored her mother because she helped the community -She didn't experience discrimination for being half-American (00:38:31) Food & Material in Wartime Japan -Shortages happened prior to December 1941 -The war in China required farmers to be conscripted �-This, in turn, caused lower food production -The war in China also required large amounts of food and material -Newspapers and radios were available in the village -Rode bicycle into farm country to collect food -Relied on a barter system -She and a cousin entertained the farmers as a way of getting extra food -Put on little comedy routines -One resident of the village was the executive of a French fertilizer company -Bought a cow, butchered it, and smoked the meat -Gave one of the legs to Pia's family (00:43:48) Working in the Police Station -Her mother learned that younger women were being conscripted to work in factories -She didn't want that for Pia, so she got her a job working at the village's police station -She helped translate conversations and documents since she was multilingual -High number of foreign citizens living in the village -Had to report to the police station when they left town and when they returned (00:44:33) German Refugees -In 1940/1941 the German government decided its women and children should return to the country -The original plan was to sail to Japan, then to Russia, and take a train back to Germany -Hitler's invasion of Russia in 1941 made the transfer of German civilians impossible -As a result, the German women and children were stuck in Japan -Many lived in a small enclave in Pia's village (00:46:38) Losing the War -Father came to visit and ultimately decided to move into the village -Shortly after that, the family's house in Tokyo was destroyed in a bombing -Her brother was drafted into the Japanese Army -He volunteered for Pilot Training -While traveling from Tokyo to her village a general and his staff boarded the train -He sat down next to her and he was a kind man -He had studied English and they discussed the language -When he got off the train he asked her name -That general became the commandant at her brother's pilot school -He recognized the last name and informed her brother he had met her sister -The general was eventually killed in action -Her brother was killed in action in 1945 a few months before the war ended -He was stationed at a major airfield conducting research on American planes -As the bombings became more frequent he was assigned to an aerial defense unit in Tokyo -On his first mission he encountered American fighter planes -By this time, America had gotten close enough to send bombers and fighters -On his first mission he was shot down and killed as a result (00:51:52) Morale of the Japanese -Her parents disagreed with the attack on Pearl Harbor -Brought the United States into a war that Japan could not win -Her father had been in the United States when the war began and was detained for a few months -He returned to Japan in 1942 as part of a delegate exchange between the U.S. and Japan -Two ships met in southern Africa allowing the delegates to return home -Knew that the news was propaganda because all of it sounded too good to be true -A friend was drafted and stationed at a fortification on a peninsula -After the war he told her that they had no rifles �-Expected to repel an American invasion using bamboo spears -When he showed American troops the fort he said the spears were for fishing -Embarrassed to tell them they planned on fighting with sticks -Heard horror stories about the bombings of Japanese cities -Went into Tokyo to take her final exams and stayed overnight during a bombing raid -Heard about the older section of Tokyo being firebombed -People jumped into a river to avoid the heat and were boiled alive -Morale got worse as the war progressed -Propaganda stayed the same as a futile attempt to bolster the people's morale (00:59:20) End of the War -Heard about the use of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki -Couldn't fathom that the atom had been used as a new weapon -Didn't know the details of the bombings until survivors talked about what they witnessed -Listened to Emperor Hirohito's surrender speech -Had never heard the Emperor speak before -Thankful that the war ended (01:01:50) Reflections on the War Pt. 1 -Most profound effect from the war was having an aversion to being cold -During the war they lived in the mountain cottage, but it was not suited for winters -Woke up freezing, with the air so cold that it made her blankets stiff -Learned how to cut firewood -Mother had bolstered her morale throughout the war -No whining, no self-pitying, just survive (xx:xx:xx) Post War -Stayed in the cottage for a long time after the war ended -Went into Tokyo with her sister to look for the ruins of the family's house -The heat from the firebombs turned the white stucco pink -Melted a stack of records into a single wax pillar -Remembers finding the house's bathtub hanging from its pipes -Only one house in the neighborhood survived the firebombs -Owned by a woman that had buckets of sand and water on her roof -When the bombs landed she picked up the bombs and dunked them in sand or water -By now she had been desensitized by violence, so seeing the house was a curiosity, not a shock (xx:xx:xx) American Occupation -First Americans they encountered were journalists that interviewed her father and foreigners -Took a few weeks before she encountered American troops -Remembers being at a train station and seeing a train full of troops -Some of them talked to her and were surprised she spoke fluent English -Once U.S. forces reached the village they took over the hotel to be used for R&R -She worked closely with the occupation forces -Had U.S. Army staff quartered in the hotel's villas -Helped find maids to clean the quarters -Began talking to an American officer in the 1st Cavalry Division, Lieutenant Ken White -He had helped design improvised, American-style showers at the hotel -The hotel had stables, so the Americans brought horses for the soldiers to ride -Lt. White allowed Pia to go horseback riding before soldiers came to ride -Another lieutenant revitalized the hotel's golf course -Hired civilians to pull the weeds and cut the grass -She played golf when soldiers weren't playing �-During the American occupation her parents rented a “storage house” in Tokyo -She stayed behind in the village to continue working (xx:xx:xx) Getting Married -Lt. White's enlistment ended, but he decided to stay in Tokyo and get a job at the Reparations Center -One day he called Pia and asked her to get married -She knew him and had worked with him for a year and ultimately decided to say yes -They got technically married at the American Consulate in Yokohama, Japan -Had their reception at the American Club in Tokyo -Had the religious ceremony conducted by a German missionary -The missionary's wife and daughter played the organ and violin for the ceremony -Her sister picked wildflowers for Pia's bridal bouquet -Wore her mother's wedding dress -Ken had to stay in Tokyo for work, and she continued to live in the village -When Ken's roommate left on business trips she stayed with him in Tokyo -After getting married they stayed in Japan for one year (xx:xx:xx) Returning to the United States -In December (1947? 1948?) she and Ken sailed back to the United States -She was pregnant with their first child and she got terribly seasick -Landed at Seattle -Remembers some of the soldiers on the ship had battery-powered radios -First time she heard radio commercials -Ken had a car in Japan, and he had it shipped back to the United States -It was unloaded at San Francisco -They took a train to San Francisco and picked up his car -From San Francisco they went to Los Angeles and stayed with Ken's uncle for a week -Drove back to Johnstown, Pennsylvania (Ken's hometown) -Stayed with Ken's older brother for a while -Moved to Dayton, Ohio, where Ken's other brother lived -Stayed there until Ken could start taking classes at Michigan State University (xx:xx:xx) Life after the War -Lived in East Lansing, Michigan, while Ken studied at Michigan State University -He graduated as an industrial engineer and got a job in Ohio with an earth moving company -They moved to Michigan where Ken got a job with the Brunswick Corporation's -Worked for the School Equipment Division -Lived in Kalamazoo, then transferred to Muskegon -He got a job in Grand Rapids, Michigan with a hardware company -While in East Lansing she took a History of Civilization course at Michigan State -She was pregnant with her second child -All of the college girls were fascinated with her pregnancy -Many had lived sheltered lives -Her parents stayed in Japan -Her father had a series of strokes and eventually died -After her father's death her mother continued to live in Japan -Ken invited Pia's mother to move to the United States to be closer to Pia and Pia's sister -Upon Pia's father's death, Pia's mother had become the matriarch of the family -Pia's father had been the oldest, and only son -This led to Pia's mother essentially being in charge of Pia's father's family -She enjoyed being the matriarch and feeling needed, so she decided to stay in Japan -She came to visit Pia and Ken while they were living in Cleveland �-She was the only living grandparent, and the children loved to hear her stories -Pia's sister had married an American lieutenant who made a career out of the Army -They lived in West Germany most of the time -She had two children -Only saw them when they came to visit -After he retired they moved to Texas, and lived there until they both died (xx:xx:xx) Reflections on the War Pt. 2 -It was a totally different maturing experience as opposed to a “normal” adolescence -She lived with the deprivation of food, the intense cold, and isolation -Got to do many things that she wouldn't have been able to do in the United States -Most traumatic experience was working at the village's police station -One of the officers was a member of the Kempeitai (Japan's version of the Gestapo) -She heard the interrogation and torture of “suspects” in one of the station's rooms -Officer realized she could hear the interrogations -Felt a young girl shouldn't have to listen to that -Moved the interrogations to an abandoned house away from the station -Deeply troubling experience for a young girl -Never told her mother about what she heard -Showed her the uglier side of humanity -Learned to accept circumstances and work within them without complaint � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_WhiteP1934V Title A name given to the resource White, Pia (Interview outline and video), 2016 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-05-19 Description An account of the resource Pia White was born in 1926 in Rome, Italy, to a Japanese father and an American mother. Due to her father's job with the Japanese government, the family traveled all over the world, and she lived in the United States, Japan, and various other countries. In the late 1930s, Pia, her mother, and her siblings returned to Japan. She lived in Tokyo and attended school there. After Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor, she and her family moved to a summer cottage in a mountain village near Tokyo. In 1942 her father, who had been in Washington, DC, at the time of Pearl Harbor, returned to Japan as part of an exchange of diplomats and he lived in Tokyo until he joined the family at the cottage. During the war she helped gather food and worked at the village's police station as a translator. In 1945, her older brother, a pilot, was killed in action during a bombing raid on Tokyo. After the war ended, she worked closely with the American Army of Occupation by helping manage the village as an R&R location for American troops. She befriended one Lieutenant Ken White and they eventually married, returning to the United States in December (1947 or 1948). They started a family and lived in Ohio and various cities in Michigan before settling in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource White, Pia Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4798e9c7a8814fe9c7cba811dc38cf78.jpg e57677c23e05ac17d83fec3f96ed16cd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WhitehallSharon_Photo01 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1980 Title A name given to the resource Whitehall, Sharon Description An account of the resource Sharon Whitehall, English Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College teachers Universities and colleges – Faculty Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng 1980s https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8f4474e485a70fd8bd95ffdd27441533.jpg 1c86f1fc8f513bda84c8a7de1c4f126d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WhitehallSharon_Photo02 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Whitehall, Sharon Description An account of the resource Sharon Whitehall, English Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College teachers Universities and colleges – Faculty Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9d9eecdc93df0e5f5229371fba793e1d.mp4 381ed79be00a4504467cf70e83178de4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2db96339cfe2bb924c6e3ea622618c72.pdf 0524254675251bbb29e36a50e67083b4 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Raulend “Ron” Whiteis Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Grace Balog Interviewer: We are talking with Ron Whiteis of San Diego, California, and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project. Okay Ron, start us off with some background on yourself, and to begin with, where and when were you born? Veteran: Chicago, Illinois in 1946. We moved to Indianapolis when I was 2. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And from the age of 3—all the way up from there, I didn’t really have any parental supervision. I used to wander the neighborhood. I did what I pleased. Really never got the memo on religion or anything like that. Interviewer: Okay. Well, were your parents both working or…? Veteran: My mother was deeply depressed and my father was working all the time as the head of Glidden Extraction in Indianapolis. Interviewer: Okay. And did you have brothers or sisters? Veteran: Actually yeah, I had 3 brothers and 2 sisters. Interviewer: And were they older? Younger? Veteran: 2 older brothers, 1 younger brother, and 2 younger sisters. Interviewer: Okay. �Veteran: So, I am kind of right in the middle. Interviewer: Alright. And where did you go to high school? Veteran: I went to Arsenal Tech High School in Indianapolis. It was a vocational high school. 78—76-acre campus. Very large. Interviewer: Alright. And when did you finish high school? Veteran: In 1966. I was supposed to finish in ’65 but I took a year off to go to the movies. I figured out the system, I worked it so I never got in trouble or got caught. For a whole year. Interviewer: You just kind of didn’t go to school? Veteran: I went every third day. Because after the third day, they had to get a note from a doctor. So, I went every third day. And then I took the rest of the time off. I had a really good time. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: But mostly it was because they kept sticking me in vocational classes and I hated that. And I just didn’t—and I was dyslexic. I didn’t do well in school. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you know—were you diagnosed as dyslexic or…? Veteran: Not until I got to college. And the psychology teacher was talking about all of this stuff and said “Now don’t begin to think that you are part of that.” And I asked him afterwards, and he asked me a few questions and then after a while he said “You’re dyslexic, that’s what is wrong with you. You are not stupid.” And they gave me an IQ test and I take—I scored 126. But the one they gave me in 6th grade, I didn’t even make it to 100. Because I couldn’t read. (00:02:32) Interviewer: Okay. So, how did you wind up getting into college? Veteran: I wanted something different than the life I had. I grew up very poor and I don’t know where the idea came from but I decided I wanted—I wanted to know everything. I wanted to �know the world. And I thought that that would give me the world. It didn’t, but it taught me how to find out what I needed to know. Interviewer: Alright. So, where did you go to college? Veteran: I went to Southwest Texas State University. It is now called Texas State University. Interviewer: Okay. How did you wind up there? Veteran: I came home from Vietnam and served my last 6 months at Fort Hood. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I met a woman in Temple, Texas and I don’t know…I didn’t think I was going to get married but I thought this might be a good bet. You know? And so, we got married. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: My brother was David Garcia of ABC News. Interviewer: Okay. Well that’s sort of—that’s coming after your time in the Army. But now before. You graduate from high school in ’66? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. And then, what did you do after that? Veteran: I worked for American Fletcher National Bank. I was doing computer stuff: check processing and balancing, accounts. Interviewer: Okay. So, you could work with the machines and things, you just didn’t read well. Veteran: Yeah. I didn’t have any problem with numbers, just reading. (00:04:04) Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And then, is this what you were doing until Uncle Sam came looking for you or…? �Veteran: Yeah. They turned me back the first two times because like I said, I was only 130 pounds and I was six foot three. Or six foot two. I gained another inch. So, that was fine with me because I didn’t want to go there. I was pretty much a wimp. Interviewer: Okay. And what did you know about Vietnam at the time? Veteran: Not very much. Not very much. I was too busy, you know, trying to figure out my life. So, I just—I really didn’t think about it, other than the fact that I didn’t want to go. You know. Interviewer: Okay. And so now when you finally do get the call—so when do you actually enter the Army? Veteran: I entered it in July of—the 23rd of ’69. Interviewer: Okay. And where did they send you for basic training? Veteran: Down in Kentucky at Fort Knox. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And then down to Louisiana for AIT. Interviewer: Alright. Now you said you were not an athlete? Veteran: No. Interviewer: Okay, so what was basic training at Fort Knox like for you? Veteran: Like the Death March of Bataan. Every morning, we’d have to go out and run a few miles. And at the end of that, we were supposed to eat and I couldn’t. So, I became even skinnier. Interviewer: Did you eventually get into shape or get stronger? Veteran: Well, I found that there was a resilience in me that I hadn’t known before, that I would not give up. Especially when they would march us down to the rifle range every day, down Misery Hill and march us back up. And it just broke your heart because you think you saw the �top, and when you got to there, it turned and went further, and it kept turning and going further. And you—and everybody—half of the company dropped out. I wouldn’t quit. I wouldn’t quit. I didn’t know that about me. I just wouldn’t quit. (00:06:17) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: When I got to the top, I thought I was just going to keel over dead. I was just—I couldn’t see, I couldn’t hear. Moisture coming out of my eyes and mouth and nose and everything. I was pathetic. But I wouldn’t give up. And you know, I wrote about that because by the end of basic, the last time I walked up that hill, I didn’t break a sweat. You know? Interviewer: Mhmm. And did you eventually adjust so you could eat? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now the—how did the drill instructors treat you during this process? Veteran: Well, we had a few that was…treated us badly. But ours was a—he recognized that most of us were a little bit older and said “Look, if you just try, we are not going to harass you like that.” And it was a good thing because we wouldn’t have put up with it. You know, you can get a 17, 18-year old. But when you get to be 22…you know… Interviewer: You actually had a company or platoon of you that were mostly older that they put together? Veteran: Yeah, ours. I don’t know how it happened but—well, kind of. A lot of us—there was 4 different things and a lot of us got to be every 4th number so we would be together. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: We figured out okay, everyone—squeeze in line up every 4th person. And then we were all together. �Interviewer: Alright. So, you found your own way there. Okay, so—now, and then, what about the…Okay, so the discipline stuff wasn’t quite as bad maybe as it might have been for another unit? Or another platoon? (00:08:03) Veteran: There was one that they replaced the drill sergeant because he got out of hand. And had some blanket parties and stuff. And see I’d have just killed his ass. I would have at that time. I figured I was going to die. I am going to Vietnam and I am going to die, I won’t be back. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: You know? So, I don’t have to put up with that. Interviewer: Alright. But in the meantime, you survived basic training. And then off to Fort Polk, Louisiana for your AIT? Veteran: Mhmm. Interviewer: Okay, and what was that like? Veteran: Wet. I mean, dry and dusty and just more of the same stupid stuff. And then I got a chance to go to APC training and I went to that back in Fort Knox again. Interviewer: Okay, and then…explain what that is. Veteran: That’s an Armored Personnel Carrier. How to drive one, how to drive it across the water, how to swim it. Interviewer: Okay. (00:09:00) Veteran: And then when I got to Vietnam, they put me in the infantry. Interviewer: Alright. So, was the APC training on top of the infantry training at Fort Polk? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: So, you basically had 3 stages of training there. That was two. Veteran: Yeah. Well, if you’re already going, why not? �Interviewer: Okay. Now at Fort Polk, what—how was that different from Fort Knox in terms of what you were doing? Veteran: I think that they were a little less intense at Fort Polk. And they were willing to listen to the men. And one of the men went down and told the—wanted to see the commanding officer and said the food here is awful. And he came down and tried it and raised holy hell. And then he came down there every day to ask is this good? Is it good enough? You know. Got any complaints? Tell me. And we had good food from then on. (00:10:00) Interviewer: Alright. So, you’re experience in the Army has allowed for some push back. Okay. Now, how did the APC thing happen? Were you just…? Veteran: They asked if anybody was interested in signing up and I signed up. I didn’t think they’d call me but they said yeah. So, then they shipped me out there and I learned how to drive one of those big—it was fun. It was fun. You know? Interviewer: Alright. So, you just got to play with big machines basically? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: And how long were you then doing that? Veteran: I think that was like a 6-week course or 5 weeks. I don’t know, it wasn’t very long. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, when did you finish that? Veteran: Sometime in the early part of December, I think. Because that meant I had a month leave, and then I had to report back: California, January…I want to say the 12th. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: You know, they just processed us, put us on a plane, flew us to Japan. Alaska to Japan, and then Vietnam. Interviewer: Okay. Was it a military plane or a chartered civilian plane? �Veteran: I don’t know. It was a pretty big—pretty big plane. There was no first class. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: They wouldn’t let us off and it was a little disheartening when we got to Japan and all the crew got off, then flew us to Vietnam you know. Interviewer: Okay. And where did you land in Vietnam? Veteran: I want to say up near Huế or Da Nang. Da Nang I think. Interviewer: Da Nang quite possibly, yeah. Veteran: Yeah, Da Nang. Interviewer: Okay. And then what happens to you when you get off the plane? Veteran: They put us in some crappy barracks and that’s when I found out that I should have brought money because people were having little quiet meetings with the people who were assigning jobs. And I snuck around and looked and saw they were passing money and I thought why didn’t I get the memo on this? I could be in Saigon. You know? In a comfortable berth. Interviewer: What did you get instead? Veteran: I got to go to Huế and then up near the…I am trying to think. It was Fort Campbell firebase. It was up near Quang Tri. (00:12:18) Interviewer: Okay. Yeah. I am not sure which—there is Camp Carroll but that is a little bit farther inland. Veteran: Well, this was out. Interviewer: Okay. But basically—Okay, well what unit were you joining? Veteran: The 101st airborne division. Interviewer: Okay. And when you first come up to join the 101st, do they give you some kind of orientation before you go to your unit? �Veteran: Yeah, they had the—we’d be on call all night long at the perimeter. And then they’d have some classes and I fell asleep in one and the lieutenant gave me a grenade to handle and took the pin out and said “Now you won’t fall asleep.” And I said “Boy, you really are the stupidest motherfucker I have ever seen in my life because when I fall asleep, I won’t know. You all will be dead.” Interviewer: So, what happened to the hand grenade? Veteran: Well, he was very nervous and cut the short—cut the lesson short so he could get it back and put the pin back in it. But I thought that was stupid. You know? I could have fallen asleep and killed everybody there. Interviewer: Alright. Now, did they teach you anything useful in that training? Veteran: No. No, not at all. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: All conventional, not jungle. Interviewer: Alright. So, you get a few days of that and then what specific unit do you join? Veteran: They sent me out to the unit…I think it was 2nd battalion of the 506th? Interviewer: Okay, 506th regiment. Okay, and then which company? Veteran: Company B. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And the captain there took one look at me and said something disparaging and get rid of him along with that other one too because they don’t look fit. He was a gung-ho, Rambo type and so they shipped me off. This was a lucky thing, you know. Because they shipped me off to a bunch of short timers. And I begged them to show me everything they knew about staying alive �because they survived the A Shau Valley and they must know something. And they did. (00:14:22) Interviewer: Okay, now just explain this a little. So, you go in to—was the company in the field? Or were they on the— Veteran: Yeah, they were in the field. On the hilltop. Interviewer: Okay, so what was the company commander—he just didn’t want to look at you? Or…? Veteran: No, he said something about what the fuck is this crap here? You know. Get rid of it. Interviewer: Okay, but he wasn’t—they didn’t actually send you— Veteran: He wanted robust men to go out and fly out at a moment’s notice to fight. Interviewer: Sure. Okay. Veteran: And I didn’t look the type. Interviewer: Yeah, well that part I get. I am just kind of wondering: did he expect you to get sent back to the rear? Or…? Veteran: No, just send me to a platoon that wasn’t doing anything, to get me out of the way. Interviewer: Okay. So, you moved on. But then—and then that’s the point where you kind of connect with a guy who— Veteran: I was very lucky. They taught me everything I needed to know. And I used that information to stay alive. Interviewer: Okay. What kinds of things were they teaching you? Veteran: How to not make a trail. How to quietly go through, how to spot if there’s any kind of mines or booby traps or anything like that. How to read a map: how to be able to look at that map and see the best route from place to place. It’s not easy. How I could take them up and down a �mountain instead of down in a path. How to train everybody around me to hand signals so that they wouldn’t make any noise. We had to—I felt like I was following my father’s Indian tradition to—you go through the land and never make a mark. And it was great. And I took over my platoon because of that. I was a private and I felt I knew more. I wanted to live and so I took over the platoon walk point for 9 months. (00:16:10) Interviewer: Okay. At what point did you start doing that? Veteran: Well, as soon as those guys got dropped to go home and they reorganized and put me in another platoon. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so— Veteran: When I say I controlled it, I did. The sergeant was a short timer. He didn’t care. And anytime we got somebody that couldn’t get with the program, I had the company ship them off and somebody else could come into the platoon. You know? Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so remind me again. So, when did you arrive in Vietnam? Veteran: I arrived there about the 12th of January in about— Interviewer: That’s right. Veteran: By the end of January, I think I was in another platoon. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I learned quite a bit about—I’m not bragging, I am just saying this is what happened and I have—at the time, I had never led anybody. I had never taken control, I never—suddenly, there’s a different person here. Who thinks, okay, if I am going to live, I better have a hand in this. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you have a lieutenant commanding the platoon? Veteran: No, we just had a sergeant. �Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so he was supposed to be providing leadership and… Veteran: Yeah, but he was a short timer and I think he kind of realized I knew more or something. He didn’t—I don’t know why, he just let me take charge of everything. Interviewer: And pretty much the rest of the guys were new guys now? Veteran: I am sorry, what? Interviewer: Were the rest of the guys new guys after that first group left? Veteran: Some of them were fairly new, along with me, and some of them were there a while. But they stuck to me. They stuck to me and I didn’t find out until much later. I felt my mission was to stay, number one—me, alive. And then protect and keep everyone in my platoon. Nobody was killed, nobody was injured. We weren’t run over. One of the few platoons that were never run over by the enemy. And I just chose to travel everywhere that would be unlikely to run into any kind of trouble that would hurt anybody. (00:18:24) Interviewer: Okay. So, at this point in time, your platoon is normally operating by itself? Veteran: And then every so often, after two or three weeks, we’d join up with the company and we’d… Interviewer: Okay, now what comp—what area were you operating in in January, February, early in the year? Veteran: Early in the year, we were down in the lowlands just by the mountains. By the foothills. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, we did have some hilly country there but we weren’t up in the mountains. Interviewer: Alright. And was there much enemy activity at that point? Veteran: No. No, really not. And in March we went up there and was put on the firebase to guard it while they opened up that firebase. I don’t remember the date of it but I know it was in March. �Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So…But then we were off again, roaming around the mountains. Interviewer: Alright. Well, your company—I mean I guess the 2nd battalion 506th that you were with—you were with them and they had the job of setting up a firebase on the hill that comes to be known as Ripcord. And the first attempt was in March and A company went in and they were not successful. April 1st, B company was sent there. Veteran: So, that was in—I thought it was March but that was… Interviewer: Oh, okay. So, what is— Veteran: I lost track of time. Interviewer: So, what do you remember about that? Did you actually land on Ripcord yourself? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. So, what happened that day? Veteran: I don’t remember much of anything except that I was trying to find a bunker. And I had seen the one down at the very end being built. And I chose that one, to be down at the very end, because it was a better-built bunker than any of the others. And just guarding the place until they took us off. (00:20:15) Interviewer: Okay. Well, that’s later because the April—1st of April, B company lands and then they leave at night. So, you’re just there on the hilltop for a day and did not establish the base. So, you don’t remember that? Where were you do you think, April 1st, 1970? Veteran: Not sure. I remember that they were building a lot of the bunkers when we got up there. They weren’t finished. And they were bringing in cannons, the 105s and the— Interviewer: Okay. That would come later once they actually had taken over the hilltop. �Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: But there was, B company was on and off in the space of about a day and then they were back patrolling the jungle again? Veteran: Yeah. I remember we were just shuffling. It didn’t make much sense to me. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: You go where you’re told. Interviewer: Okay. So, it wasn’t really registering with you at that point what exactly was going on? Veteran: No. Interviewer: You were on a hilltop, then you left the hilltop, and then you were patrolling. And then you come back later and the base is now under construction. And you wind up being kind of on perimeter guard for that. When you are patrolling around in the jungle, around the time when they were—before you wind up with the regular duty up on the base, was there much enemy activity out there then? Veteran: No, really there wasn’t. Well, a few others run into it. Quite frankly, I tried to avoid that as much as possible. Interviewer: Okay. Now, your platoon—was the company still operating mostly in platoons at this point? Veteran: I remember still being in platoons and running around on some of the mountains and everything and meeting up with the, every so often, with the company. Interviewer: The rest of the company. Veteran: And then dividing up and going again (00:22:01). �Interviewer: Okay. And…let’s see. So, how long were you spending out in the field, at one time? Veteran: Well…I am trying to remember. Pretty long time. We didn’t much get stand downs. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I had heard of them but we didn’t get them. I got a stand down because I got cellulitis in my knee. Puffed up real big. And they put me on a—it was foggy, you couldn’t see anything. And they had a ‘copter come in there, a slick. Put me on that slick and sent me back. And I thought well, this might kill me. You know, fast. And then the doctor said you must stay in bed and you must have them bring food to you and I thought I am not doing that. You know? And then at the…the sergeant, the company sergeant, put me on the garbage truck you could at least work. And the physician came by, the doc, and saw me and made me get down. And raised holy hell about it. And that’s when I found out that I could easily lose my leg. And—because I had to go every morning and have a shot of penicillin. You know. And that’s, you know. So, that’s when the sergeant took a dislike to me. I think he thought I ratted him out but I didn’t. It was just coincidence the doctor saw me and said “What the hell are you doing up there? Get down.” Interviewer: Right. Veteran: You know. Interviewer: So, this is just one of those infections you get in the jungle? Veteran: I don’t even know what caused it. Could have been a scratch. Who knows? But it just swelled up like a melon. You know, and I didn’t realize it was that bad. I just thought well, you take a little penicillin, you’ll be fine. Interviewer: Okay. Well, that attempt—I mean maybe, that might have been when the company first went to Ripcord. (00:24:04) �Veteran: It could have been. Interviewer: Because it was fairly dramatic in most of their stories. But if you weren’t there then… Veteran: I don’t remember it so it probably—I was back at base for about 2 or 3 weeks. Interviewer: Yeah, that could be right in there because eventually B company does go there and they are the ones who do much of the perimeter guard work. And your recollection is going to that base and picking out your bunker? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Now, describe a little bit then what the firebase looked like? Veteran: Well, it was pretty barren. You know, they had all kinds of bunkers built in various, you know, construction. I picked the one that was built the best. And there was a lot of traffic in and out. And we had a select helicopter shot down bringing in ammo. They managed to get over to the pad and set down and then they come out and took it away. They didn’t learn anything that the reason the firebase blew up was because they shot one down over it and it blew up and the ammo dump blew up and the war pits went up and then the 105s went up. It took 11 hours of concussions before it finally finished. Before that we were on a hill. 805—his company—we took that hill because they were using it to shoot onto the firebase. So, we took it away from the enemy. We had a…what do you call that? We went en masse and helicopters went in… Interviewer: Combat assault. Veteran: Combat assault. And we took that. So, it meant—interesting things happened up there at the time. One, we were constantly getting struck by lightning. I mean one time, I thought there was an explosion. Another second later, it ran up my legs and made my heart beat funny, then ran back down again. And I thought whoa. I was—I did not, I wouldn’t get in the foxhole �because it was filled with water and I was afraid. The ones that were in the foxholes when it hit—they got it the worst. So, I laid down beside it. A mortar came in and there was a great big flat faced boulder. And it hit the boulder and went up like a ball of static right over the top of me. And I woke up to that, you know, and rolled over into the…And three of them, the commander and the medic and I think the lieutenant came rushing out there, because they thought I’d be dead. And they couldn’t find a scratch on me. They’re like this can’t be happening, you know, where you get hit right, like, between me and that door. It was that close. You know? Another time, the company commander came over to me and said “Get your guys together.” And I thought get your guys together? I’m a private. And he said “And go down there and check that out because that’s where they’re sneaking in on us.” And I didn’t want to take that order and I didn’t want to disobey it either so I had a thot come with me, which is a shotgun but shoots grenades. (00:27:36) Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And I imagine—I went to the edge of the thing, and I imagine the grid. And I started firing them, further and further out. The company commander comes over and says “What the hell are you doing?” And I said “Making a path, sir.” And he thought about it and he said “Carry on.” And it turned out really good because when we went down there, they had—the Viet Cong had dropped all of their weapons, including a machine gun and ran off. (00:28:07) Interviewer: So, there were Vietnamese trying to get into the perimeter? Veteran: Oh yeah, every night. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: We didn’t fire back. We didn’t let them mark our positions. Interviewer: Okay, so what— �Veteran: We had a lieutenant that was great with artillery. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And he would call it in on them every night. Close. Interviewer: Yeah, so—so they basically said—would they get into the wire? Or were they outside of the wire? Veteran: Well, we didn’t put wire up on the hill 805. Interviewer: Oh, that’s 805. Okay, I am sorry, I was thinking of Ripcord in the south but you are talking 805. Veteran: Oh no, we hadn’t gone yet. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: The company C decided that they wanted off Ripcord because they were constantly getting mortars in on them. And I don’t know how they arranged it but one day we got notice that, I think company A, came in to cover for us and we got to the firebase and took over for them. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: Walked over and they went off into the jungle. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, yeah, so you have your field time with—around hill 805. When—did you have any Vietnamese scouts with you? Veteran: I had a scout earlier than that. For a very short time. I don’t know what happened to him. Nobody wanted him. Interviewer: Okay. �Veteran: So, I said “Okay, he can hang with me.” You know. And he used to cook up all kinds of strange food and share it with me because he wanted me to taste this and try this. Well, it could have been dog for all I know. You know? But it was better than C rations. Interviewer: Okay. And was he any good as a scout? Veteran: I really don’t see that he had any input whatsoever, he was just sort of there. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: You know, and he didn’t advise me to anything. He figured I was doing pretty good, I guess. I don’t know. I remember that time that I used to keep all the food that they sent out, where other GIs threw their—some of their least liked food away. Because when we ran out of food and everybody was real hungry and they’d come over and want some food, I’d give them that food. And also, I was known as the library because I carried several books. And people would bring me a book and they would exchange it for another book because sometimes you’d be out there and you’d be camped out there and no place to go and nothing to do. And they would read for a little while, you know, to take their mind off things. You didn’t get to read very often but you know, it was there. And so, I carried a lot of books. Books are special—were precious to me at that time. (00:30:53) Interviewer: You were able to read them? Veteran: Well, not very much at a time. You know? I remember that when we were—when the firebase was exploding, I had a book called How Green Is My Valley. I still have it. I haven’t read it since. But I would talk to myself: if I could just read one more page, and then think about what to do, it would keep me from panicking. Because they would come around and jump into the—my little pit in front of my bunker and you could see in their eyes. They were like some psychotic horse in a burning barn. And you’d try—I tried to talk them into coming in and �staying, but after a little while, they’d jump up and run off the mountain. You know, so…I pretty much was on my own but it used to scare the hell out of me when they would just jump in. Interviewer: Alright. (00:32:00) Veteran: You know, you could see that you couldn’t reason with them. You could see that they were beyond reason. Fully panic mode. And I, every time, it made me panic and made me feel like I should run too. And I thought no, that’s not safe. Interviewer: Well, was there even a place to run to? Veteran: Well, just off the hill. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: Off the mountain. And I don’t know what happened. Some of them, I guess, got killed running off the mountain. But I managed to just…I’d sit there, read the book, and I don’t remember what I read and I read the same page over and over, about 20 or 30 times that day. You know, trying to, you know…A little candle in there to read by and try not to panic, try to hold it together. Try to, you know, tough it out. And I guess I was down there—my mate for the bunker left and I don’t know where he went and I was down there by myself for 3 days. Trying to stay awake and falling asleep. Trying to figure out the enemy were coming up the mountain at any time. You know and…And I would have still been down there until the enemy come up, if somebody hadn’t thought to send somebody around to all the bunkers to make sure everybody was out. Interviewer: Okay. So, basically, you’re in the last weeks of the Ripcord campaign. There’s a period there in July of 1970 when essentially there is regular bombardment happening. And you’re pretty much pinned down in the bunkers most of the time? Veteran: Well, we came out and did stuff and then run to other bunkers. �Interviewer: Right. Veteran: I was cleaning up on the top of the hill some stuff and taking it to the side of the hill, the top of the hill and throwing it off. This was after the explosion, everything blew up. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And we’d get incoming rounds and I would run in this bunker but that one day, a series of things happened and I don’t know how. But 4 or 5 guys, I guess they are rear echelon people because they had no sense, to walk all the way down there in a group. You know? And it really irritated me. And they—we got incoming, and they ran into the bunker that I was using. So, I went across the top of the hill to the bunker on the other side and it was not a very well built one and I thought this is really dumb. Through all of this explosion, you are running across the top. And then when I got all clear and came out, they took a direct hit right in the doorway. It killed two or three and injured a whole bunch of others, and I would have been one of those. And just because I got angry that they were all lollygagging around, coming down the top of the hill like they were back on the—home on their block. You know, I knew they weren’t infantry. The infantry wouldn’t have walked all together like that. So, and I just—it really irritated me. Now, I wouldn’t go in there. (00:35:13) Interviewer: Okay. Now, was this on the last day? Or…? Veteran: No, it was not— Interviewer: A couple days before? Veteran: A couple days before, because then they told us to get in our bunkers and stay there. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And then I stayed there a couple days by myself. And I… Interviewer: Now, was it normal to have just one man in a bunker? �Veteran: No, it was supposed to have 2 but I don’t know what happened to the one that was in there with me. He may have run off the mountain, he may have gotten killed. I don’t know. There was nobody to talk to and I didn’t have a radio to contact anybody and I was just down there and that was my post. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And then that’s where I had to stay. Interviewer: Alright. And…So, we get to the last day, which would be July 23rd at that point, and they evacuate the hilltop. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: And so, you were just there and somebody came to get you? (00:36:03) Veteran: Yes, somebody came around to say send somebody around to all the bunkers, check to make sure everybody was out. And they come down there and say “What the hell are you doing here? We are leaving! Get up to the top!” So, I got all my stuff together in my rucksack and everything and I thought—my legs were all shaky from fear that they would leave me. And I started up the trail and I thought that’s really stupid because you can’t go around the side from bunker to bunker because you don’t have the strength in your legs. You know? And about halfway up, I looked, I was looking around, and there was no sign of anybody and I thought they had left me and I kind of gave up for a minute. And I just kept wondering why they didn’t lob something in on me or kill me, you know? I was a perfect target. I didn’t know at that time that the Vietnamese—Viet Cong—were coming up the mountain at that time. And so they stopped firing on us for fear of killing their own men. (00:37:05) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So— �Interviewer: So, there was no incoming fire then at that point, when you are scrambling up the hill? Veteran: No, nothing. It was just dead quiet. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I almost gave up. I had the moment of giving up and then I decided, I don’t know, something kicked in. And I decided this is not where I am going to die. And I cussed myself. Move it. Move one foot after the other. Come on, you can make one more step. And I did that all the way up to the top. Crawling along real slow. And when I got to the top, two guys ran out and grabbed me and ushered me into the bunker up there. Lieutenant said “Get to the back drop, everything. Get back up here and in line.” So, I went back there, I put a long range patrol in this pocket, I put my wallet with all my family pictures in this, I put on a canteen, I put two bandoliers of ammo, I grabbed my thump gun and I grabbed my M-16 and I went up there and he said “Drop all of that! You can’t take that with you.” And I said “The hell I can’t!” Now, where do you go from despair to total anger? And I said “Because if that helicopter gets shot down and I’m not dead, I am walking out of here. I’ve got my map, I can do it.” And I just knew that I would do it. I knew that I could go out at nighttime, because I had a terrific night sight. In fact, when there was only stars, I could see the enemy on another hilltop, moving around. Other people—I thought everyone could see that well but they apparently can’t. (00:38:40) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I just knew that I was going to get out of there alive if it didn’t kill me. And then the helicopter was coming in, he didn’t have time to argue. He said “Go!” and I ran out there and jumped on the helicopter before it even hit the ground. And 4 or 5 guys jumped on top of me. And they bounced and took off down the side like that and an explosion went off and I thought �we are hit, we are going down. And then the next thing I know, they were coming up and going out through the valley. And I thought wow, I thought we were hit. You know? And then everybody got off me and sat up and I was able to sit up and look around. I thought this is, you know…When I was up there, there was only about 10 or 12 people left in the bunkers, so I know that there was only one more slick coming in. Those helicopter pilots…They are the bravest people I have ever heard of. They kept coming, no matter what. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: They got us out. No matter what. Interviewer: Now, were they getting fired on? Veteran: All the time. They were getting hit. I remember one coming towards the mountain and I said “Everybody get down, he’s been hit and I don’t know if he’ll make it.” He just barely made it over the lip before he—it conked out. You know. But you could tell he’d been hit. So, they came in. I don’t know, I’d never seen anything that brave before. They came in and they got us wherever we needed them. (00:40:16) Interviewer: Okay. So, when you were making your trip from the bunker back to where the helicopters and stuff were coming, so that part, you were not taking fire? Veteran: No. Interviewer: That was just quiet. But once you get over to the side—well I guess, when maybe when the helicopters came in, did they all start taking shooting? Veteran: That’s when they came in. They had it all marked out. They had it all zeroed in to that pad. And they would come in low and they would come up on top like that and set down. And I jumped on it before it even set down. And 4 or 5 guys jumped on top of me, it bounced and off it �went. And the explosion went off and I thought we are hit. We are going down. But that was on purpose; they went down low and went out through the valley. Interviewer: Yeah, and I guess before you left the bunker, when you were still down there in the bunker line, did you see any Vietnamese out there? Veteran: No. I kept thinking they would be coming up the mountain soon, because we didn’t have anything to protect us, you know, other than the perimeter guards. And they never did. I thought that was odd and I don’t know, I thought it was odd that nobody was shooting at me while I was making it to the top. Because I was a good target. You know? I was very—moving very slow. I had the most dreadful case of wobbly knees. The whole way up there I thought, you know, there’s no way, they’re gone. They left me. You know, there’s not a single person in sight, not a helicopter coming in, not a sound. I had been left. I don’t know what I was going to do. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So… Interviewer: So, now you’ve made it back, and you get back to Camp Evans. Now what happens? Veteran: I stood on the pad. We were told to go to the company but I couldn’t leave until I saw the others come in. You know, I just stood out there and I watched the helicopters come in to see if all of our men came in and everything. I just—I couldn’t leave it. I felt like why me? I’m her safe. They are still out there. So…And then we had to turn in all our weapons and everything and go to our company. And then they took us to Beatle Beach? (00:42:36) Interviewer: Yep. Veteran: For our serve—that’s the first time we got R and R. That was already in July: from January to July, you know, that’s the first time we had a set down. You know, stand down. And �that month, they sent all of my money…No, it wasn’t that month. Yeah, it was. They sent all of my money home. I had an allotment for my widowed mother. And they sent all of my money home that month and I didn’t have any. And so, the guys shared up some money. And because I didn’t drink beer because beer made me sick, one of the officers kept going in and getting me a high ball and bringing it out to me so I would have something to drink, you know. Interviewer: So, he could get liquor in the officers’ club but you couldn’t get it? Veteran: You couldn’t get it, you know. Interviewer: The enlist club. Veteran: I am 22 year—23 years old at that time. But not allowed to have, you know, hard liquor. Interviewer: Alright. Now, after the whole R and R kind of period there, do you go back out in the field again? Veteran: For a long time, we were supposed to wait until we got more people in and they kept having us do little things and training and all kinds of stuff. It was just to keep us moving, you know, and finally, I guess we went back out sometime in August. But we didn’t go all the—they had such bad weather, they trucked us out. And dropped us off out there in the foothills of the rolling hills. We didn’t go back up the mountains right then. And then, my R and R came up and I was called back in to do my R and R. And I had put down, I had purposely put down R and R for September so I could get Australia because I thought well that would be great to see Australia, but the previous company clerk sold it to somebody else. (00:44:43) Interviewer: Oh. Veteran: And I wouldn’t take R and R. I said “If I can’t go there, I will just sit here for a week. I don’t care, it’s not a big deal.” “No, you have to go someplace.” I go “I am not going to Bangkok �and I am not going to others.” Some of these guys came back with some dirty diseases that I couldn’t walk near, and I am not…Of course, I—mostly it was because I was a virgin. So, I wasn’t going to go do that activity. I just—it felt so sleazy. So, they said, “Well, if you’ve got somebody that could come meet you in Hawaii, we will send you there.” I said “The only person I’ve got is my mother and I don’t know if she’d come.” They sent out the paperwork and everything and she met me in Hawaii and we paddled around on the…Hawaii. The people there wouldn’t let me buy or pay for anything. Everywhere I went, you know, no matter whether it was a store or anything, they just kept saying “Oh no, no, no. No money.” We went to see Don Ho. And for my mother’s age, she was a good-looking woman and being a widow, Don Ho had somebody come out and ask her if she’d come up on stage with him. He had a bar in the back. So, he kept her up there for hours and I am like when do I get my mother back? You know, and he was…it looked very intimate. It was kind of embarrassing: my mother is being romanced up there by Don Ho, you know? And you’re not going to give her back? Do I discreetly leave and pick her up later or what? I don’t know what to—what’s the protocol? You know? So, eventually they sent her back and they had taken pictures up there and gave us the pictures of her up there with—so that she’d have a memento. And it was very interesting. You know. And we went to a few night clubs and saw some acts. I got to see some…what do they call that? The—it’s a famous bar there that all the celebrities went to. It was right in the…it was right in one of the main hotels or something. I can’t think of it now but I went in there and I thought this is where the celebrities meet? It’s so tiny. You know, it’s just a bar and there’s no tables and stretches on down to the end. You know? And we stayed at the…I can’t even remember the hotel we stayed in. It was right there on the beach. So, it was interesting. I enjoyed the time that we spent there, you know. It was the first time I was able to get any news of anything going on. They, you know, �I hadn’t heard anything since July of ’69. I had no idea what was happening in the world. (00:47:52) Interviewer: Right. Veteran: I had never heard of Kent State. And even to this day, somebody will say something about—in the past and I’ll think I don’t remember that…Wait a minute, was it in 1970? Yeah. And that’s why. You know, it’s like you’ve lost a year of memory. So… (00:48:13) Interviewer: Okay. And then, what was it like having to go back to Vietnam at that point? Veteran: Well, it was…it was kind of sad. With—I thought, well, you know you made it this far. Maybe you’ve got a little luck still. You know. I figured it was about fifty percent luck and fifty percent know-how. And that’s kind of modest. Well, not very modest but it’s the way I felt about it, you know. And so, we went back there, we went up in the mountains for a while and…Patrolling around and not much happening. Then next thing I know, they were calling for me to go back early. And then they put me on perimeter and they processed me and we were out there for a couple weeks, I think. And this Indian guy, Gabe Muselah. I remember his name because he saved my life. He—when I first met him, he was shipped out there and he went around and talked to a lot of people and got to me and asked me questions about things. And apparently, whatever I said was right because then—from then on, he stuck close to me in our troop, you know. He was looking for the best possibility for himself. And I understand that. I was, you know, I wouldn’t want to be with some of those. GIs are dangerous, especially if they don’t know what they’re doing or they do something stupid. You know? We had a guy carrying a clay bird, always putting it on. And I said “Don’t do that, get rid of that. That’s dangerous. You go out there one of these times, they’re going to booby trap it.” “Oh, no, I look at them pretty careful.” Went out there one time, blew it up, he was dead. It was very shocking, you know. I �shared a nighttime position with him. And they put his body in a bag and this sounds a little…little insane. I spent the night talking to him. That’s crazy. (00:50:29) Interviewer: You mentioned that fellow, you said he saved your life? Veteran: Gabe. He—some, one of newcomers came in, they thought they heard a noise and they popped a grenade. I already lost hearing. I didn’t hear it. And they threw it, only they threw it at us. Because the positions, one was out in front of the other. They threw it over onto us. He pushed me into the foxhole and jumped in on top of me. It exploded and all kinds of rocks and everything came down on us and I thought oh my god, I made it this far and then die? Because of some cherry over here that doesn’t, you know, is scared of the dark? Interviewer: So, this is stuff when you were on perimeter duty? Like at the very end? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: This is just before getting sent home and I thought this is—there weren’t—how tragic is that? How tragic is that? When, you know, you make it all this way and then some Jerry blows you away with a grenade. And Gabe got out his knife and he went out there to kill him because that’s the way you were at that time. You were just nuts. You know? And, but they, the patrol, got down there first and got him away. And he came back and said “They took him away. I didn’t get a chance to kill him.” You know. But, in normal talk like that, that would be something normally you would do. You know, you’d just—normally, you’d just kill them. Interviewer: At what point was your hearing damaged? Veteran: On the firebase. Interviewer: Okay. �Veteran: Well, it started over up at the explosion that went off on 805. And this—out of this ear was facing it. That’s the worst ear. But after eleven hours of concussion everything, explosions and everything, I just noticed after that I couldn’t hear my watch tick and I didn’t hear a lot of things. And I thought well, it’s probably good that we’re getting close to the end because you know. You’d need, at night, you’d need to hear your hearing. Really bad, in case anybody is trying to sneak up on you. And I had excellent hearing, excellent sight, before that. So…I would have probably—I would have probably been just sitting there until the grenade went off, because I didn’t hear it. He heard it and he jumped. Pushed me in there and jumped on top of me and I’m forever grateful for that man. (00:52:43) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: He was a Zuni Indian. And we became friends, you know, before that. We took a perimeter guard together, you know. Interviewer: Okay. Was that sort of the last adventure you had in Vietnam? Veteran: Yeah. Then they sent us on a…one of those big, fat looking planes down to Huế and processed us and I didn’t sleep for days. I have pictures of me there: the circles under my eyes, you know? And everybody was trying to be nice on the flight, you know, and you know. And they took pictures with us and stuff, the ladies on the flight, the stewardesses. And you know, we were joking and carrying on and like when they get ready to take off, everybody raise your legs. You know, like it would help you get off the air and off the ground. And it was a—we flew to Guam and then from Guam we flew to Seattle. And then they, I thought it was very funny, it was like they wouldn’t let you go anywhere. They kept you bottled up and then they escorted us to the airport and took us in there with a, you know, like you’re going to process to get them processed through and put me on a plane. And they put me on first class. And they flew from �there to Denver and I didn’t even get a chance to notify anybody. You know? And then they put me on another plane and I finally fell asleep. And apparently, I was moaning and carrying on and everything and they kept waking me up and I would go “Why are you waking me?” You know. “Sir, you’re making a lot of noise.” And I didn’t know I was making a lot of noise. You know? And I got home and found that my mother had given away a lot of my stuff because she had the idea I wasn’t coming back. Sold my baby grand piano, gave away a lot of my clothes. I had a comic book collection and I was sorry to see that go. You know, from when I was just a small kid, I collected them. And they were all in—you know, I kept them in real nice shape and everything. I just…I thought that was just odd, that she had given up hope or something, that I would come back. (00:55:21) Interviewer: So, like after she had been out to see you in Hawaii, she got rid of all that? Veteran: Yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: Maybe she— Veteran: Maybe it was a protective thing, you know, to—that she needed to protect herself because she had bouts of depression and everything and maybe she just needed that to think that—get it done and stop worrying or something. You know, I—I felt a lot of sadness from my mother. She made a lot of trouble for herself. Life was not good to her. It could have been better but she just gave in to it. And I found that I had the opposite: I won’t give in to anything. I can’t—I didn’t know I was—I didn’t know that about myself. I didn’t know that I was just that stubborn. That I wouldn’t give in at all. You know? And when I—they sent me, I got leave to after Christmas and then they sent me to Fort Hood. And they wanted to play war games and I said “This is stupid.” So, I went over to the captain and I said “Hey, I hear you’re having trouble organizing KP help? I can take it over and I can run it. And you won’t have a lick of problem.” �You know, and he said “Okay, go ahead.” So, I did. I called in certain people from the field that wanted to come in. I had a list of more people who wanted to come in. And I made up the schedule and I said “You only get one script and you go back to the field, somebody else is in here. 3 men on, 3 men off. You work 3 days on, 3 days off. And do what you want but you better be here when it’s time. And no griping, and you work your butt off and you clean and you scrub pans and everything.” The cooks were happy. They were just…this is wonderful. You know? And then they—I was sitting outside reading, because when we finished, we would finish up our work early and go out and take a break. And the captain—the sergeant came by and said—told me to get over there and pick up this trash and take care of that. And I said “No.” And he said “Oh yes.” And I said “Oh no.” And I got up and I walked into the thing and I knocked on the captain’s door and I said “Look, if this is going to work, we are not going to be doing other duties.” And he told the sergeant “Leave them alone.” He liked that I had it arranged, you know. Where does a spec 4 get the idea to just say no to somebody? You know? Get that stubbornness? (00:58:03) Interviewer: Well, people—my impression is, when people come back from Vietnam, at least sometimes did, there were things they weren’t going to put up with anymore. And— Veteran: Yeah, you had your chance to kill me: you didn’t kill me. I expected to die. You know, I had already figured that’s it, you’re going to die over there. That’s it. Or, you’re going to come back—well, when I took that shrapnel in my back, I couldn’t feel my legs for a few moments. And I hit it and knocked it and got it off my back where it was burning through three shirts that I was wearing. And burnt me on the back and made me for a moment paralyzed. And I thought oh god, please don’t let me be paralyzed. You know? And then, they wanted me to come in off the post and I wouldn’t do it. I was like “This is not hero stuff. Don’t come out here: don’t come out �here because then everybody will know where we are at.” And they did anyway and I thought well, I can’t argue because that’s just making more noise. So, I went in, you know. They wanted me to go back. They said “Well, you won’t get a purple heart unless you go back.” And I said “Who gives a shit?” You know? Let me—just put some salve on it. If it’s not better in the morning, I’ll go back. And that’s what he did: dressed it out there and, the medic did, and that— the next day, it didn’t look so bad. And I never went back in, they just kept checking it every day. You know? Wasn’t going to do it. (00:59:32) Interviewer: How would you characterize the morale of your unit while you were in Vietnam? Veteran: Well, I don’t know about…There was some newcomers that came in that seemed to me that they were living in a kind of fantasy world. “Oh, don’t worry: it’s going to be over any week now. They are talking peace talks. It’s going to be over. I don’t need to worry about anything.” And then you know, we had one in our platoon for a while. I traded him off to somebody else because he sat down and said “I can’t climb this hill any further.” And I went up—I broke my cardinal rule, because I went back down there after I unloaded my pack. And went back down there and got him up and took his pack and I pushed him up to the top of the hill and I told him off, all the way up there, you know? And he later went down the wrong trail and got blown up. I don’t know whether he died from it. I don’t know. He certainly didn’t last very long in Vietnam. But I could tell he was in a fantasy world. And you know, he didn’t take it seriously. And I traded him off: I said “Get him away from me because otherwise I’ll kill him.” You know, I was serious. You go a little nuts out there, you know? He was a danger to us. (01:00:52) Interviewer: Yeah. So, morale was sort of—people just didn’t engage reality. I mean, did you have— �Veteran: Not morale. The people that was in my platoon was pretty good. But then, we avoided everything that we could. And I didn’t want me to die and I didn’t want any of them to die. And I realized if you take control here, now they depend on you. And if they get hurt, it’s because of you. And that—I took that very seriously. I worked 24/7 for the whole time I was there to make sure that nothing happened. Interviewer: Okay, so we had been talking. I had asked a question sort of about morale, and you were talking about your own unit’s morale. Your platoon’s morale was pretty good— Veteran: My troop was—we were pretty happy together. I used to get care packages from home and my brother would slip in some whiskey and stuff and we’d be sitting around at night and I’d share that with them. We’d all have a toast that we were still alive. I just wanted to say that it sounds like I’m bragging here, all this stuff, but I don’t really understand how a kid can grow up being pretty much a sissy, can suddenly turn in to this other person that I didn’t recognize. I didn’t know this person. This person was stubborn, this person was all “make damn sure that we’re going to do this, we’re going to…” You know, I would just become this other serious 24/7…By golly, if we’d—if it’s up to me, we are all going to live. (01:02:33) Interviewer: Now, did you never have a lieutenant in your platoon? Veteran: No. Interviewer: So, you just end up—you had the whole—you had the sergeant, now did he go away eventually and get replaced by another sergeant? Or…? Veteran: Replaced by another sergeant. Who I threatened to kill because he said “We are not going up and down any more mountains. We are going down this path.” And I turned around, took my gun out of safety and I said “Well first of all, you’re going to shut the fuck up or I am �going to kill you right now.” And I didn’t say it loud. I just said it in this voice, and I meant it. And something on my face—I know that face. That face is my father’s face that will make your bowels liquid. And I used it later when I became a teacher. Scared the principal. He came in one day to view my class and somebody decided to act up and I gave them the face. And when I gave the face, the kid scrunched down in his chair and the principal got up and left and I thought that’s funny. Why would he leave? He was only here five minutes, how can he do my class? And I went down there and the other principal said “Oh, he turned it over to me because you scared him.” I am like, “What?” And I—my son told me “I know that face! I have seen that face on you. You scare people with that face.” And it was my father’s face. I knew that face but I couldn’t ever duplicate it in the mirror or anything. I was not being brave. I didn’t see myself as a hero. I am not a hero. I am a practical thinking person that wants to stay alive, and I will do whatever is necessary, to stay alive. You know? So, it sounds like I am bragging but I just—still to this day, want to understand where that person came from. Where did that person come from, that all of this stuff happened to you, the right and left of you, and only the—the only scratch you got was a burn on the back from shrapnel? You know, people were dying right and left. And there’s times out there, I thought I had gone crazy. And 30-some years later, when they threatened to get rid of our cost of our insurance rate up real high, everybody talked me into going to the VA and seeing if I couldn’t get their, you know. And so, they questioned me about my hearing and then they started really questioning me about firebase Ripcord and what happened to your hearing and everything else out there on that firebase. And I had a flashback and a meltdown. How can you have a meltdown 30-some years later? Almost like it was yesterday. And I couldn’t make it stop. It came in waves and I couldn’t make it stop. And they kept saying, “Oh, you have posttraumatic stress.” And I am like, “No, I don’t have anything. I am okay, I just can’t make this �stop.” And they kept passing me from person to person. They kept saying that. They finally sent me to a psychiatrist. And she said—I said “I looked at the DSM. I am not alcoholic, I am not a drug user, I am not—I don’t have fits of violence, I don’t do…” You know? And she got it out and said “This is what you looked at?” And I said “Yes.” And she said “Turn the page.” I turned the page and I fit all of the sub-category. I thought oh shit: I’ve got post-traumatic stress. And I am still having meltdowns from it. How do I stop this? You know. And she said “You need to talk about it. You need to talk about it to anybody that will stand still and hear the story.” And I can do that now a lot better because at first, it would make me cry. I would cry all the time while I tried to talk about it. I’d get real emotional over it, you know. And I thought this—I don’t know whether this is any good. I asked her “Does this go away?” And she “Well, it’s kind of ingrained in your mind after all of this time. I don’t think that we can get rid of it but we can teach you coping mechanisms.” And so, I learned coping mechanisms to cope with it, you know? Coming here, I didn’t know whether I could do it. I said “I am going.” I said “It’s probably going to scare the shit out of me.” I was sick for the first couple hours of the drive up from San Diego. Then, when I got to about halfway, I started feeling better and got here and… (01:06:59) Interviewer: Is this the first meeting you have come to? Veteran: I went to the one in Fort Worth when I was living in Texas. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: But to travel anywhere, I always—or to go outside of my comfort zone. But I did get stuck once in my apartment with agoraphobia. And I knew that I had to keep pushing the envelope. So, what I used to go by is that—is something I read someplace that said “What would you do if you weren’t afraid?” And then I would go out and do it. You know? But it helped. It kept me from getting—coming unglued. You know, I kept going places by myself and pushing �the envelope as far as I could push it. I didn’t know whether I would make it here. I thought this is going to be very embarrassing if I get about halfway and turn back. You know? And I was sick. I thought I am sick; I don’t think I can go. And I was like, you know, grow up. You drove here, you know. Just go. And I did and I thought, you know, I am just going to do it. I am going to do it. I am afraid. I am afraid. I am frightened. I am going to do it. And when I got here, I was just fine. Interviewer: Yeah. (01:08:14) Veteran: I was worn out, tired. Slept good that night. You know? Interviewer: Well, it’s a good group. Veteran: Huh? Interviewer: It’s a good group here. Veteran: It is a good group. These are men that I served with. Although, I tried to block out most of it so I don’t remember the names and faces like I should. You know, it’s like I—when I came back, I decided that I was going to just pack it up and put it in a corner in my brain in a closet and pretend it didn’t happen. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And that’s what I did. I had nightmares and I would wake up in the middle of the night in a panic and want to run. And no place to run. I would get up and read until morning, you know. And everybody thought that was odd. I was very dependent on the word fuck. I loved the word fuck. I used it all the time. Scandalized my family. You know? They didn’t know who I was but they—and I think I scared them a bit. You know, because they sent away this little wimpy kid and he come back and…It didn’t seem to me—I didn’t seem to be very aggressive. You know? How did that happen? When did that happen? And in a way, I am not used to saying �“Thank you for your service” and pat me on the back and say “You were a hero.” No. No, don’t say that. You want to see heroes? Look at those chopper pilots that came in there and knew they would come in there under fire to come and get us. That’s a hero. You know? I did what I did to survive. I did what I did to make sure nobody around me got killed because of me, doing something stupid. So, that’s not hero material. That’s just practicality. That’s just someone doing what they have to do to survive. (01:10:10) Interviewer: Which is, ultimately, what winds up leading you to do things that people label heroic in a lot of cases. You weren’t doing it for that reason, you were just doing it. Veteran: You are scared to death and you still do it. Interviewer: Yeah. Now, you mentioned that when you got back, and you got out of the Army, you were a different person. So, what did you then do? You got out of the Army. Was that when you went to school then? Or…? Veteran: Well, I went back to school. I got my degree. I got a regular degree because everybody at that time was saying if you got a teacher’s degree, it wasn’t really a degree. So, I thought well, because I have such stubbornness and pride in myself, that I am getting a regular degree and fill it in with my electives with teaching credits and everything. And then I had to leave that because both my wife and I got sick and we had the baby and so, I had to go work for my brother, doing aluminum siding. And then I got a job on the railroad. And I worked on the railroad for 5 or 6 years and then Reaganomics killed that. And I come back to Texas and fought through depression and you know, I got myself together and went to see a counselor who counseled me that I should go back to my original plan, which was to become a teacher. So, I got the last 12 credits and got me a job over in Fort Hood. Now, that may seem crazy, to go to an Army camp when I didn’t want to have anything to do with the Army. But they were paying the most amount �of money. Nobody wanted to teach over there. And it was great. I loved it. But I did avoid going out on, if I could, I’ll avoid it, if they had some sort of thing going on out at Fort Hood. I’d ask somebody else to take my place and go. You know, and so I didn’t go. But I got the best job I could and suffered a divorce right there at the beginning. And stayed because I wanted to make sure my son—this was my kid, I raised him. I diapered him, I bathed him, I fed him. And I did everything for him because my ex-wife was a little depressed at that time and she didn’t really want a child, you know. And so, I kind of—he was my baby. I put him in a snuggly. You had to buy a snuggly through a Woolworth catalog at that time. Covered the baby completely. You couldn’t see it unless you were taller than me, to see there’s a baby in there. You know, I had—I stooped over to get something at a store and some lady saw I had a baby in there and screamed at me and run off to tell—call the police because I was abusing that baby. And I am like “No, it’s like being back in the womb: he loves it.” You know? He’s all nice and warm in there and he can hear my heart beating and I run a higher temperature. And so, he was like—it’s like just a blanket. So, I stayed to raise him, make sure he didn’t become a dirtbag. Make sure he went to college. Became a teacher and started out teaching math but I was a little too good at that because all of my students passed the exit exam and that was not so good because there was only—everybody else only had 60 percent. And I guess they were afraid that this would cause a stampede for parents wanting their kids in my class or something, I don’t know. They asked me to move over to social studies and gave me 4 preps for, you know, 4 different classes to teach for my efforts. And I went down there and said “Do you have—you don’t have a psychology class, could I teach a class that’s psychology?” And they said “That’s 5 preps! Are you nuts?” And I said “Yes. Give me it.” And so, they gave it to me. Within a couple years, that’s all I was teaching: psychology, sociology. And then finally, just psychology. You know? And it was �not—here’s something funny: I decided that my class would be a give and take. We are not going to discuss—you’re not going to learn dates and all that. You can talk to me about Freud. What do you think about dreams? You think they mean anything? You got to have an opinion in here or get up. You’re going to have an opinion. And sometimes it felt like I was on the edge of chaos, conducting this and any minute now, it was going to be going to a riot. And the best compliment I ever got is a teacher came down and knocked on my door after lunch and said “What the hell goes on in here?” And I had been teaching—this was back when they were not teaching sex education and I was teaching sex education in the one chapter because we had already had two students turn up with HIV. And I decided nobody needs to die for lack of information. So, I was teaching a very outward everything about sex. No matter how red my face was, I was going to teach that. And I figured that she heard certain something and I probably, this is when I got fired for this. And I said “What do you mean? What’s—what happened?” And she said “I was just down in the lunch hall and a group of your students are arguing over Freud down there.” And I thought, well, is this a bad thing? “Well, they never argued in my class over anything down there.” I am like “Well, I just wake them up and send them out there into the world.” You know? I would do things to provoke them, to get them into arguments over things. To make them see that psychology is in your life every day. So, I enjoyed it. It was a little radical but here’s the thing, I read this book when I was about 18 or 19, called To Serve Them All Our Days by Rodney…Doctorfield? Interviewer: Delderfield. Veteran: Delderfield? Interviewer: Yeah. �Veteran: I stole all his ideas. And it wasn’t until sometime later I read the book again and I thought oh my god, I thought I had all these ideas myself. And I just stole them from this guy that come back from war and became a teacher. And I thought well, that serves me right. You know? Thinking that I was really something. You know, to do all this. But it was great fun. I enjoyed it. So, it was—that’ s part of what I did. I went back to school and go that degree and got a job teaching and I stayed with it for over 20 years. And then I just—we got a whole new bunch of officers in. The superintendent and the assistant superintendent and they—at that time I was counseling students and they felt that we weren’t doing enough. And they loaded us down with a lot of secretarial jobs. And I said “Have you read the state manual? It says I am supposed to counsel 55% of the time. Do you know I have 7 students who are of suicidal ideation. I had to get their parents in here and get them off to the funny farm so that they wouldn’t kill themselves. I got 4 more I check on every day, at different times during the day, to see when they cross over. I’ve got all the teachers alerted to send me anybody that is acting funny. That they might—you know, were depressed and now they’re suddenly happy. Because that means they have figured out a way to kill themselves.” And I thought, you know, I’m—nobody is perfect and I just—I don’t think I can bear it if one of my students kill themselves and I didn’t catch it. So, I just said “You know what, if that’s the way you’re going to be, I am just going to retire. I can sit at home for more than half my salary. And I don’t have to worry so.” You know? It’s a lot of worry. You don’t know how vulnerable these kids are. You don’t know. Until you counsel them and find out so many of them are fragile. Especially with your parents over in Iraq or in some distant land where they could die at any time. And they don’t know what will happen to them. So…Oh well, that’s, you know, that was—I loved the career and I would have stayed but I just couldn’t deal with not taking the time to talk to every student 3 or 4 times during the year. I had 350 students. I �had to contact them all at least 3 times during the year to make sure. Not only for college and scholarships and socioeconomic things and see how they were doing, socializing them. And you know, there’s other stuff too. (01:19:14) Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: So…My dad told me when I was about 21 that I was a two-spirit person. I didn’t understand it. He said “Don’t be afraid of it and don’t be ashamed of it. You’re a two-spirit person. You always nurture, wherever you go.” I thought that’s an odd thing for my father to say and I don’t know what it means and I didn’t want to—I didn’t want to ask because it was one of those Indian things, you know, that he was fond of saying at—from time to time, you know, that was just kind of creepy. You know. So, maybe I am a two-spirit person; I don’t know. I’ve mentored all my life, in every job that I ever had, I was a teacher. So, it just came natural to me. They always send them to me to teach. (01:20:05) Interviewer: Now, how much of that, do you think, goes back to what sort of happened to you in the Army? Veteran: Well, the Army changed my life radically. I think it—I really do, I think it changed my life radically. I would have never been the person I am today. You know? People say “Oh, I wish that didn’t happen to me.” Well, yeah on the one hand, it was terrible. I lived through it. And I changed. I no longer was willing to be stepped on and stomped on and pushed to the side. Now, I fought back. You know? Let’s go do city. You know, you want to criticize me? Alright. I had an assistant principal who hated my guts. She was always trying to get me fired. I kept good records. When they’d take me down to the office to see the principal about some complaint or other, and I’d get out my…And I didn’t say she was a liar, I didn’t say—you know. I said “Well, I am sorry that you have been misinformed. Here’s what really happened.” After a while, the �principal got tired of that. I guess he said “No more.” You know? “Stop this, whatever it is you’re—I don’t know why you don’t like him. But leave him alone.” And so that was the end of that, you know. It was just…I tried to teach everybody around me that when parents come in distraught, do not escalate. De-escalate. And same in the classroom. You’re a teacher; you can make it worse or you can make it better. Don’t give them an ultimatum. Say “Here’s the choices. You choose. What do you want to do?” You know? Calm down. Get back in the swing of things. You want to go down to the office? You want time out? You know. What do you want to do? But I won’t put up with anything. You know, go around any corner, I got two degrees in psychology, I’ll be waiting there for you. You know? I will outsmart you in every way. Don’t try me. I’m a Vietnam vet, you know. I’m mean. We can have it sweet as pie or we can have it mean. Your choice. You know? And I never had trouble in my classes like anyone else had. I don’t, you know, I just—I thought, give them a choice. Let them choose for themselves. They want to go down to the office? That’s fine. I’m not angry over it. Sometimes you need a time out. You know, sometimes life just overloads you. And you bring that to my classroom and maybe you need a time out. Tell me if you don’t want to be called on today. You need some time to just contemplate. Okay, I won’t call on you. Now, let’s not make it a habit but if you have an overwhelming day…just…And if you want to talk, I am here. I am always here. And my classroom is like Vegas: what happens here, stays here. And anybody who spreads any rumors, you’re out of here. You go around and share what you hear here, you know. And you have to be sensitive to where you’re going because sometimes you have to stop them and say, “Wait a minute, wait a minute. I think I know where you’re going. Think a minute. Is that something you want to share? If it’s not, we need to stop here.” And you know why? I’ll tell you a real happening. The guy across the hall taught biology. And he was having a really good time that �day and he was telling them about—he was talking about reproduction. He was telling them all the chemicals in sperm. And one girl raised her hand and she said “Mr. K—” Well, I shouldn’t say his name. Said “That’s all sugars, isn’t it?” And he’s just like, “Yeah, you get it! It’s all it really is. It’s all sugars.” And then he didn’t see where it was going and she raised her—she said “How come it tastes so salty?” He went outside, closed the door and fell down laughing. He didn’t know what to do. I said, “You’ve got to think down the road where this might lead. And I’m sure that girl didn’t want to share that and I’m sure that it was all over school that she shared that. You’ve got to stop them before they incriminate themselves. You know? Think a minute. Is that something you want to share? Because I think I know where you are going.” And they would say, “Uhhh…No.” “Then good. Move on. Let’s go on.” You know? (01:24:57) Interviewer: Yeah. Well, that one would have blindsided me but… Veteran: Well, it blindsided him. I felt sorry for him. I thought I don’t know whether you could have prevented that one. I really don’t. But I just know that you’ve got to watch out when you’re working with these kids. They say things. And a lot of them go home and kill themselves because they think they can’t face life now, because they shared too much. They overshared. You know? I closed down program after program as were—our altered programs. They come in every year with training for a week. New stuff that was going to save education. And I would sit there and I see globally. Not specifically, but globally. And I would see the flaw and I would ask—I would try to ask a question, as innocently as possible so that it didn’t look like I was causing trouble. And it would pull the tapestry apart. And they would fall apart, you know. And so, they would have to modify it and change whatever they wanted us to do that year. Well, one year they wanted us to a—have all the kids journal. Oh, it’ll be great. They’ll journal. And I said, “Oh, I think you should think about this.” By that time, all the principals from the different �schools and the superintendent and assistant superintendent was always in the back of our training session. You know, and every time I thought well, that’s going to get you fired. It didn’t. and I said, “This journaling, it could get out of hand because they may overshare and then they will go home and kill themselves.” “Oh, no. I don’t know why you think things like that.” So, we went in small groups and they tagged along to my small group and sat in the back. And the teacher—I told a joke to the other teacher when we were supposed to share something. And she came over there and said, “Well, how about sharing that with the group?” And I said, “I don’t want to.” And she picked up the paper and said “Well, what is it that’s funny?” You know. And I took it back and put it down. And she said, “Well, I mean you know, you could share this with everybody.” And I took it back. And that—and I said, “See, this is exactly what I’m talking about: you have authority and you’re using your authority to get me to share what I don’t want to share. And then one of these kids are going to share something and they’re going to go home and kill themselves because they overshared. All because of this, because you’re not trained to have them journal.” And they all got up and left. And I thought, well now you’ve done it. You’re fired for sure this time because they are going to just throw you out of here. Any minute now. Besides all that, because I am teaching sex ed too. And all that ten years or twelve years that I did it, nobody said anything and I don’t know why. Next day, we were told to go to our rooms and just work in our rooms because they cancelled that. We are not going to do journaling. (01:27:45) Interviewer: Alright. Well, the story has taken us in a lot of pretty interesting directions, so, I think we’ve gotten a pretty good idea. But, you know, it all connects which is— Veteran: Well, I am surprised I got through this without crying. That usually happens somewhere along the line. Or being overwhelmed. I’ve been trying to follow the psychiatrist that told me to get ahold of anyone that wants to hear and tell them all about it. And sometimes it does cause �tears and, you know, sometimes it shakes me up a little bit. It was an experience. I am not saying it was a great experience but it was an experience that changed my life. It made me a different person. I don’t know whether that is good or bad. You know, I certainly became adamant and stubborn. When my son wanted to quit college, I said “Oh, no. Over my dead body. You’re moving back in with me and you’ve got a place to live and a place to shower and a place to do your clothes and food that’s in the refrigerator and that’s all I can do for you but you’re going back to college. You’re going to finish.” And he did. And I said—and then he said one time, and he said to me “I am not sure college is great. I don’t know whether I can afford for my two boys.” And I said “Oh, no. I want a promise right now that they’re going to college. I didn’t raise us up out of the gutter for you—from trailer park trash to become this and then let them slip back down.” Usually, the third generation it happens to. And I said—and he said “Well, I don’t see it makes any difference.” I said “How much were you making before you went to college?” “Making $32,000.” “What are you making now? $110? $120? It’s not worth it? You make three times what I was making as a teacher. You know, when I started out. And it wasn’t worth it? Damn right, it’s worth it. And I don’t care what anybody says: education is the key to becoming something better in this life.” And I went after it: I came back from Vietnam and I went to college and I had my family pulling and her family pulling and everybody pulling the other direction. And why are you doing this? And you’re not smart enough to do this, you barely made it out of grade school and you graduated from high school with a D- average. You know? Well, there was a reason for that. I didn’t know that at the time but there was a reason for that, you know. But I wasn’t going to give up. I wanted to know everything. I thought if I went to college, I would know everything. Turns out, I don’t even hardly know anything but I know how to look it up. I know how to find out that information. I know how to research it. You know? That’s �what education does for you. And I know how to find out information so you can form your own opinion. And you don’t sit around being ignorant. You know? I had only a size ten and a half shoe when I tried to stamp out as much ignorance as I could. (01:30:56) Interviewer: Alright. Now, in the meantime, you’ve filled— Veteran: Huh? Interviewer: And in the meantime, you’ve filled in another piece of both the story of firebase Ripcord and told a very good story about what it was like to go through the U.S. military and what it meant. So, I’d like to just close this out by thanking you for taking the time to share the story today. Veteran: I still don’t know—I still don’t understand all that happened to me there. I still don’t understand all of it: what changed and when it changed and how it changed. Or, how I came to this point. But like Cher, I think that all the things that happen to you make you who you are, and if you like who you are at this point, and I do, then everything was the right thing to happen. So, I’ll leave you with that. (01:31:44) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_WhiteisR2157V Title A name given to the resource Whiteis, Rauland (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-03 Description An account of the resource Rauland Whiteis was born in Chicago, Illinois in 1946 and graduated high school in 1966. Whiteis was drafted into the Army in 1969 and attended Basic Training at Fort Knox, Kentucky, as well as Advanced Individual Training at Fort Polk, Louisiana. He was then deployed to Vietnam with the B Company, 2nd Battalion, 506th Regiment, 101st Airborne Division as an infantryman. He participated in the combat at Firebase Ripcord and was only injured once in the back while in Vietnam. After being discharged from the Army in 1971, Rauland attended Southwest Texas State University, where he completed two degrees in psychology. He then accepted a position teaching at Fort Hood, where he taught high school classes for over 20 years before retiring. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Whiteis, Rauland Lee Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9453fc37ae4aa9b06fab4f061211fc57.pdf 826670ad2bb11ced7efdb261f382aee4 PDF Text Text ������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������ https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/55e90f971c632260024f9196a2145a96.pdf 3957c482b94e6b39a436638e4690588d PDF Text Text Whitley Read (1839-1914) 10th New York Heavy Artillery, Company H Soldier’s Diary, January-December 1865 Sunday, January 1, 1865 Well this is New Years day rather a tough one for me came of[f] guard at nine this morning the worst days guard I ever done very cold not much shelter have worked on our quarters most all day today wonder where I will be one year from this evening dont believe I will be a soldier in Virginia. Monday, January 2, 1865 Pleasant but cold had to report at half past six for fatigue went down on the left about a half a mile worked on battery Anderson mostly quiet no firing in the front as we usually have the enemy in sight on picket. Tuesday, January 3, 1865 Pleasant and cold our division was all out under arms this forenoon to see two men shot rather a tough sight commenced to snow about three o’clock this afternoon came on picket at five am close to the South side of the James river snowing very hard can hear a gun occasionally off on our right. Wednesday, January 4, 1865 Snowed most all night cleared off had a pleasant day our front in a thick woods so had plenty of wood to keep us warm was relieved a little after six this evening marched to camp then men fell out of my squad had to put them in the guard house guess I can sleep well to night for I did not sleep any last night. Thursday, January 5, 1865 Nice pleasant day worked pretty hard fixing our tent nothing particular going on plenty of duty to do here Capt. Parker & Lieut. Welch went on picket this evening snow most all gone rather muddy but freezing some tonight. Friday, January 6, 1865 Rainy and muddy worked some but not much have got our tent fixed up pretty good went to the commisary to get some things for the Capt. Saturday, January 7, 1865 �Pleasant but muddy am on guard the weather changed this afternoon wind blows very cold from the North then rebs came in to our lines this this morning. Sunday, January 8, 1865 Came off guard at nine oclock this morning slept till noon got up some wood then wrote two letters one to mother and the other to Sam have had no mail since we came here was warm and pleasant to day but cold again this evening. Monday, January 9, 1865 Warm pleasant day did not do much got our first mail to day Capt. Parker went on picket this evening. Tuesday, January 10, 1865 Commenced raining last night rained all day some rained[?] in our tent Sam was examined for his furlough to day I have took his place cooking for the officers it has stopped raining and is going to be pleasant. Wednesday, January 11, 1865 Warm pleasant day Sam was disappointed about his furlough so I am not cooking wrote a letter to Eunice this evening. Frank Rappole was in here had quite a visit got a letter from Sarah this morning. Thursday, January 12, 1865 Was detailed for fatigue this morning warm day worked on a battery a little to the left of us rebel pickets in sight of us and so are their batteries but everything is quiet one reb came into our lines this morning. Friday, January 13, 1865 Warm day went up to the commisary this forenoon am on picket this evening have charge of our post our boys and the Johnnies talking to each other a little much pleasanter doing picket duty here now than it was last summer at Petersburgh. Saturday, January 14, 1865 Last night passed quietly we had a visit with the rebs went out between the lines they met us had a long talk and exchanged papers seemed very friendly two ran away and came in and gave themselves up said they had got sick of the war and would not stay any longer got relieved at six this evening. �Sunday, January 15, 1865 Pleasant Day had an inspection this morning had some artillery firing to day the Howlet House battery opened on a boat in the river our fellows opened on them from a battery near us with a hundred pound Parrott which soon quieted them for a little while it sounded a little like Petersburgh another Johnny came in to day by our boys. Monday, January 16, 1865 Pleasant day been to the commisary with Sam am on picket this evening have charge of a post have hard work to keep a fire out of our green pine guess I can manage to keep warm some way everything quiet with our videttes. Tuesday, January 17, 1865 Last night passed off very well been trading with the rebs to day they are very friendly with our boys but I don’t like them very well they told us of the fall of Fort Fisher fired a salute from some of our batteries got relieved from picket this evening. Wednesday, January 18, 1865 Pleasant but cool the mud was froze up quite hard last night was under arms at half past five this morning Bill Pierson and I had to report to the Adjutant at seven for fatigue walked up to Division headquarters did not do much. Thursday, January 19, 1865 Cold cloudy day am on picket to night have not got to stand any picket cutting wood and keeping fire for the Capt. all quiet along the lines get strict orders against holding any intercourse with the enemy pretty cold to night but I have a good fire to sit by. Friday, January 20, 1865 Pleasant day chopped a little wood walked up and down the picket line our boys are at work building a very strong abattis came of[?] picket at dark this evening Oscar Green came over from the 186th is going to stay here all night got a letter from Eunice to day. Saturday, January 21, 1865 Rained all day froze [derne?] a very disagreeable day had to bring wood got wet through stopped raining this evening awful muddy our officers are expecting an attack have to sleep with our belts to night don’t believe they will attack us while it is such bad weather it is best to be ready for them. �Sunday, January 22, 1865 Cloudy wet day am on picket expect an attack from the rebs well let them come we will give them such a dose as they don’t get every day very dark and foggy have charge of a post am writing by the fire rather poor one too for we have nothing but green pine to burch [burn]. Monday, January 23, 1865 Rained most all day the rebs charged our picket line about nine o’clock last night we drove them off after a half hours fighting it was all quiet for the rest of the night our boys feel pretty well over it laughed at the Johnnies some to day came off picket this evening some artillery firing across the James expect another attack before morning hope they will let me sleep to night. Tuesday, January 24, 1865 The rebs assaulted our picket line again about nine o’clock last night first[?] gunboats came down from Richmond at the same time our artillery gave them fits one boat passed the blockade and landed some troops on the island our pickets drove off the assaulting party but our batteries kept up a steady fire all night and most all day they put a hundred pound parrott shell into one of the gunboats blowed her all to pieces the rest just[?] off when our monitor came up am on picket again to night expect our Regt. was under arms all night last night very cold too. Wednesday, January 25, 1865 Last night passed off quietly with exceptions of a little picket firing on the river at a rebel ram that came down to get the guns off of the crick[?] very cold night though I was sent in from picket at sunrise this morning (for I was on the reserve) feeling rather tough having been up three nights in succession now have slept most all day hope to night will pass quiet so I can get a little rest some artillery firing on the right about four this morning John Hamilton died on the 22th. Thursday, January 26, 1865 A very cold day done my washing was detailed to go over to battery Marshall to work went over and was sent back got a letter from Maria to day and one from Mother have just finished one to Maria this evening Butterfield is over to our tent writing a letter has got it most done it has been all quiet along the lines to day except some artillery practice near the river but did no harm. Friday, January 27, 1865 Pretty cold day am on picket to night the rebs in Howlett battery fired a few mortar shells over at Dutch Gap nothing unusual going on. �Saturday, January 28, 1865 Weather still cold slight flurry of snow last night another alarm about an attack heavy[?] reserve[?] picket sent out this evening I got relieved just at sundown dont feel very well this evening hope the rebs wont attack to night. Sunday, January 29, 1865 A little warmer had a battalion inspection by one of the brigade staff officers day passed off very quietly have not heard but one gun to day that was from one of the monitors in the James wish I was at Dexter this evening it will be some time before I shall get there perhaps never. Monday, January 30, 1865 Quite warm had a battalion drill this afternoon guess they mean to kill us they are not satisfied with wearing us out with duty but must drill us to death am on picket this evening time cool and frosty. Tuesday, January 31, 1865 Last night passed off quietly but rather cold went[?] down near the river they expected another attack last night but they did not come got relieved just at sundown feel almost homesick to night am tired and do not feel very well but guess will be alright in the morning have got to go on fatigue at seven o’clock in the morning. Wednesday, February 1, 1865 Pleasant and warm was detailed to go on fatigue over to battery Spofford they did not want us then we[?] came back to camp have done nothing to day but lay around and sleep J. Baker’s furlough came to night he will start in the morning wish I was going home with him and my time out Sam has gone over to the 20th cavalry to stay all night Thursday, February 2, 1865 Pleasant and warm had nothing to do but eat and sleep on picket this evening down by battery Wilcox had rather be here than down on the line it is nothing but picket and fatigue most all of the time. Friday, February 3, 1865 Not as pleasant as yesterday a little snow and rain this afternoon last night passed of [f] quietly some heavy cannonading off on our left then some firing from the gunboats this evening on the Appomattox �got relieved from picket about six o’clock will be on again to morrow night do not feel very well am sick and tired of soldiering will be glad when I get out of it. Saturday, February 4, 1865 Pleasant and warm have done nothing to day but am on picket again to night think they give us enough of such duty to do got a letter from Orville and Olive to day. Sunday, February 5, 1865 last night passed off very quiet a little cannonading on the Appomattox but did not disturb us here got relieved at sundown found a letter at camp from Eunice this evening not as warm as last night wind blows rather cold. Monday, February 6, 1865 Pleasant day had nothing to do some hard fighting on the extreme left of the line still at it it is evening can hear the roar[?] of artillery and the rattle of musketry dont know what the result of the battle is if it is over we hear that the president and part of his cabinet are at Fortress Monroe to meet the peace commissioners from Richmond hope they will make the thing work two years and a half to day since I enlisted. Tuesday, February 7, 1865 Rained all day froze as it came the ground coated over with ice cold uncomfortable day am on picket to night stopped storming at dark so it is quite pleasant this evening all quiet on the lines. Wednesday, February 8, 1865 Last night passed all right rather cool though pleasant day the rebs pickets and ours begun to talk to each other at daylight cannot hear anything official in regard to the fight on the extreme left but the report is that Gen. Meade is dead and Gen. Warren wounded a deserter came in this afternoon says they are tired of the war am sick of it myself but think we can whip them the peace negotiations have fell through got relieved from picket at sundown. Thursday, February 9, 1865 Pleasant and cool ground froze up hard have been to Dutch Gap Canal to day with H. Harris and I. Horton it is nothing of any account after all the blow about it is a decided failure and I am glad the originator is relieved went aboard of the gunboat Commodore Perry now in the river to see J. Moffat got a letter from George and package containing paper and envelopes pretty cold this evening. �Friday, February 10, 1865 Pretty cold morning had a company drill this forenoon been up to the commisary after serving[?] rations for the officers did not get on picket to night am getting three nights in this time something unusual for me. Saturday, February 11, 1865 Nice warm day did nothing through this day am on picket this evening rather cool now the rebel pickets pretty noisy so are our fellows otherwise everything is quiet. Sunday, February 12, 1865 Cold Northwest wind blowing did time on picket four deserters came through our lines this morning all within [illegible] there is great dissatisfaction among their men since the peace mission failure heard from the fight on the left our forces successful drove the enemy a considerable distance on the 4th and 6th get relieved at sundown very cold this evening. Monday, February 13, 1865 A very[?] cold day was detailed for fatigue went to [battery?] [3? words illegible] slept[?] not a wink on account of the cold weather so had nothing to day [illegible] relieve[?] picket to night guess I will [illegible] have to [3 lines illegible]. Tuesday, February 14, 1865 Pleasant day had two battalion drills am on picket to night some picket firing on our left at deserters as they were coming fired at by their own men otherwise all is quiet. Wednesday, February 15, 1865 A light rain began falling in the night kept it up all day made it a little disagreeable on picket tried to exchange papers with the rebs but they had no papers got relieved at sundown guess I will go to bed as I am some tired and did not sleep much last night. Thursday, February 16, 1865 Cloudy but warm all quiet except deserters coming in every night should think the rebs would get discouraged from so many of their men running away raining a little this evening some heavy cannonading �down on our extreme left just before dark some thunder and lightning this evening with the rain wrote a letter to George to day. Friday, February 17, 1865 Rained most all day am on picket and the rain falling hard enough to almost drown a poor soldier twelve rebs came in this morning some came in last night in front of the 1st brigade they got up a considerable firing had our Regt. sit under arms guess they are getting discouraged by the way they desert am glad to see them come in. Saturday, February 18, 1865 Nice warm day stopped raining about ten o’clock last night some picket firing to the left on account of deserters coming otherwise everything passed off quietly slept most all day got relieved at sundown found a letter in camp for me from Frank Steele. Sunday, February 19, 1865 Nice pleasant day did not do much Sam went out on the picket line I got dinner for the officers some picket firing last night in our front two deserters came in guess we will have the rebel army all over here if they keep coming over at this rate. Monday, February 20, 1865 Another pleasant day moved our tent worked pretty hard am on picket this evening some very sharp firing a little to our left last night more Johnnies coming we begin to think this rebellion is about played out get news of the fall of Charleston. Tuesday, February 21, 1865 Last night passed off quietly with the exception of our usual picket firing at deserters as they came in had got so that that not a night passes off without it our batteries fired a hundred gun salute in honor of the fall of Charleston and Columbia the rebs fired a few shells from Howlett battery but done us no harm got relieved at sundown. Wednesday, February 22, 1865 Very nice warm day been at work on our tent to day some pretty brisk cannonading down across the Appomattox a few shells fired from the Howlett battery did not amount to anything though got a letter from George Francis this evening and have been writing one to Alvin Gardner deserters still coming in every night and glad to see them hope they will all come. �Thursday, February 23, 1865 Worked a little on our tent last night was the first in a long time but they have had firing either in our front or a little to the left pleasant and warm. [This entry crossed through.] Friday, February 24, 1865 Rained all day yesterday was on camp guard but did not have to stand but Thurs to day is pleasant got the news of the fall of Wilmington to day and the batteries in our vicinity fired a hundred gun salute four deserters came in this morning. Saturday, February 25, 1865 Rained most all day am on picket this evening some artillery firing down on the left a little picket firing in front of the first brigade. Sunday, February 26, 1865 Nice pleasant day the officers were afraid of an attack but everything passed off quietly we think the rebs have been changeing the troops in our front got relieved at sun down our regiment has been paid four months pay to day. Monday, February 27, 1865 Another warm day all quiet in the front a little firing last night as usual at deserters as they came into our lines by their own videttes they have got so they watch the men pretty close to prevent desertions every day brings news of new successes by Sherman think they are getting discouraged. Tuesday, February 28, 1865 Rained nearly all day am on picket to night has stopped raining not very cold pretty good time for picket we got mustered for two months pay. Wednesday, March 1, 1865 Pleasant day have had nothing to do Sam thinks of starting for home to morrow and I am off picket to cook for the officers a little picket about three oclock this morning a lot of deserters came into our lines last night This is for March the 3rd by mistake on the next leaf for this date. �Thursday, March 2, 1865 Rained all day not very cold Capt. Parker started for home this morning on a furlough J. Baker’s discharge came last night he will start to morrow morning all quiet on the picket line. Friday, March 3, 1865 The night passed off all quiet except a little picket firing on our left slept around the fire most all day the enemy’s picket line been strengthened they will not exchange papers with us they report that Gen Sherman has got whipped but we dont believe it. This is for the 1st of March. Saturday, March 4, 1865 Rained most all day Sam started for home this morning on a fifteen day furlough I am working for the officers while he is gone all quiet in front but rather sharp picket firing last night guess it did not amount to much though Sunday, March 5, 1865 Warm pleasant day nothing unusual going on deserters still coming in report that they are going to evacuate Richmond cant hardly believe them hope it is so though Butterfield over here to our tent writing a letter this evening. Monday, March 6, 1865 Nice warm day have been pretty busy all day Frank Rappole has come down to stay with me to night all quiet in our front some musketry and artillery firing on our right across the James. Tuesday, March 7, 1865 Pleasant and warm been pretty busy all day five deserters came in to day new track[?] in our front Mississippi men in our front now everything expect to have a fight here soon well let it come dont want to fight but dont think I shall run got a letter from Maria this evening she is well. Wednesday, March 8, 1865 Rained most all day have not worked very hard to day all quiet in our front two deserters came in last night Major Campbell came back from a furlough last evening some of our boys at work building a new battery near the obstructions in the river have got to work most all night. �Thursday, March 9, 1865 Rained most all day large detain of men at work on a battery for some one hundred pounders guess they are expecting the rebel fleet down again. Friday, March 10, 1865 Showery day our fellows at work again to night a large fleet of our monitors down the river perhaps they are going to make a move up the river. Saturday, March 11, 1865 Pleasant day not as warm as usual last night been pretty busy all day some artillery practice in the direction of Dutch Gap. Sunday, March 12, 1865 Cool but pleasant went with Frank Rappole out on the picket line down towards the Appomattox river everything quiet do not feel very well so shall go to bed early. Monday, March 13, 1865 Warm and pleasant have not done much to day Lt. Cross & Welch went to City Point and Lt. Allen on picket so had but a few [unintelligible] to day to dinner. Tuesday, March 14, 1865 Very warm for this time of year all quiet along the line have been writing to Minnie Ward this evening. Wednesday, March 15, 1865 Quite warm with slight showers of rain guess it will rain hard before morning received a letter from Alvin this evening have not worked very hard to day. Thursday, March 16, 1865 Very warm but windy worked pretty hard raining some this evening some deserters came in on our regiment to day. �Friday, March 17, 1865 A little cooler to day rained very hard part of last night some firing a little to the left. Saturday, March 18, 1865 Warm and windy have had considerable to do to day some picket last night quite a number of rebels came in last night. Sunday, March 19, 1865 Pleasant and warm four rebs came in last night and two this morning in front of our regiment they are coming in along the line bringing their muskets with them. Monday, March 20, 1865 The warmest day of the season some heavy musketry firing on our right considerable if an engagement was going on have not heard the result of it also some artillery firing in the direction of Hatchers Run this afternoon and evening Sam was due here this morning but has not got back yet. Tuesday, March 21, 1865 Another warm day Sam not back yet raining quite hard this evening. Wednesday, March 22, 1865 Not quite as warm as usual rained most all night last night wind has blown very hard to day Lts. Allen and Welch came off picket this evening Sam not back yet have not worked much to day three deserters came in last night in our part tell pretty hard stories about the way they fare. Thursday, March 23, 1865 Hard cool wind have work quite hard Sam and the Capt. got back this evening were delayed by the freshet destroying the railroad. Friday, March 24, 1865 Cool and cloudy am on picket, to night first time in a long while Johnnies rather noisy. Saturday, March 25, 1865 �Quite cool wind to day last passed off quietly a few shots fired by the enemy’s picket came off this evening raining a little Robert Kennedy Capt. rebel service hung to day for a spy in Fort Lafayette. Sunday, March 26, 1865 Cool and windy had a review by our Brigade commander some movement is being made on the left perhaps they will be calling on us to make a move soon got a letter from Willett Smith and one from home have been writing to Frank Steele this evening. Monday, March 27, 1865 Pleasant day had two drills and a brigade dress parade they give a fellow no rest now days except while on picket am detailed for camp guard to morrow guess it is about bed time. Tuesday, March 28, 1865 Another pleasant day am on guard some heavy firing in front of Petersburg everything quiet in our front. Wednesday, March 29, 1865 Very warm day had to move our company’s quarters a little to the right so as to take our place in the regiment slight sprinkling of rain this evening heavy firing on our left across the Appomattox all last night not as many deserters as usual for a few days back. Thursday, March 30, 1865 Rained all day very heavy cannonading nearly all last night in front of the 9 th corps did not amount to anything but an artillery duel never heard as heavy firing but once before that was on the 30th of July 1864 Grant making a big move to the left some firing in that direction to day. Friday, March 31, 1865 Found it raining very hard this morning but cleared of[f] before noon al quiet in front some little artillery firing on the left. Saturday, April 1, 1865 Pleasant but windy was detailed to work in the commissary this morning Corps[?] were under arms this afternoon some artillery firing from our batteries and some of our men were going to advance on the rebel works but they showed to[o] bold a front so they did not try it. �Sunday, April 2, 1865 Pleasant day heavy cannonading from the gunboats last night our regiment charged their line this morning took the picket line but could not hold it lost pretty heavy Lieut. Allen taken prisoner James Persell killed quite a number wounded Grant giving it to them on the left have got orders to be in readiness march at a moments notice I was lucky did not have to go. Monday, April 3, 1865 The rebs left last night in the direction of Linchburg and Danville took all of their field artillery left their heavy pieces in our hands our whole division advanced this morning found nothing but a few stragglers our brigade fell back to the old camp expect orders to march to morrow Grant has doubled them up from the left has taken Petersburg and expect he has got Richmond. Tuesday, April 4, 1865 Hot day went over to the rebs old camp this morning did not have much work to do got orders this afternoon to march did not get started till after dark are going to Petersburg expect we will have to march all night I have got all of my things in the wagon so guess I can stand it. Wednesday, April 5, 1865 Marched all night till about three this morning got inside the rebs old works stayed there till daylight then went into town it was a nice place once but in rather bad state of repair dont know what we will have to do here expect part of us will have to do Provost duty I am with the quartermasters things hope he will keep me. Thursday, April 6, 1865 Drew rations to day [unintelligible] out on the West Side of the town our third batallion is doing Provost duty dont know how long we will stay here. Friday, April 7, 1865 [Unintelligible] camp marched out and the boys have got most of their tents and plenty of lumber for building think we will like it pretty well here nice country round here fruit trees in full blossom. Saturday, April 8, 1865 �Pleasant worked pretty hard fixing up the things sound[?] but this afternoon we got orders to go into the town to do Provost keep us moving all the time but guess the war is about over so will not complain. Sunday, April 9, 1865 Have worked rather hard moved a house in to town again have got good quarters will like it when we get settled the regiment is scattered all over the City but four[?] companies here at headquarters. Monday, April 10, 1865 Rained most all day drew four days rations our regiment scattered all over town doing “Provost Duty” but four companies here at headquarters received the report last night that Gen. Lee had surrendered with his whole army. Tuesday, April 11, 1865 Wet misty day have not done much to day company A went down town this afternoon but three companies left here now have not had a letter from home in a long time. Wednesday, April 12, 1865 Very warm day have not done much to day nothing going on of any account about 8000 prisoners passed through town to day. Thursday, April 13, 1865 Rained most all last night and part of to day we got a stove and set it up do not feel very well got the news that Gen. Johnson had surrendered his whole army. Friday, April 14, 1865 Nice pleasant day been round town considerable to day every thing goes off quietly the town is full of rebel officers on parrol. Saturday, April 15, 1865 Rained most all last night and part of the day our men that was taken prisoners got back this morning released on parol they had a hard time while away. �Sunday, April 16, 1865 Long lonesome day have been out on the old line where we were last summer looks rather bad but then some of our fellows that were killed last June lay on top of the ground got the news that the president had been shot. Monday, April 17, 1865 Have not done much to day been down town twice town full of rebel officers on parol Lewis Sykes promoted to commissary sergeant to day wrote a letter to mother great commotion about Lincoln being shot. Tuesday, April 18, 1865 Pleasant and warm have not done much to day got the news for certain that the president has been shot. Wednesday, April 19, 1865 Have had nothing to do like this kind of soldiering very well the president was buried to day at twelve o’clock all of the stores closed from eleven till one in town got a letter from Hiram this morning. Thursday, April 20, 1865 Pretty warm day drew four days rations got a few express boxes that is all I done. Friday, April 21, 1865 Another warm day drove ambulance for Lieut. Cross and some ladies to ride out to the old work went through them and down to battery No.5 back that way to town some very good looking ladies like such work first rate raining a little this evening Oscar Green is here to night his regiment is going through here to morrow on their way to Washington. Saturday, April 22, 1865 Pleasant day have not done much to day went out on the old line with a horse. Sunday, April 23, 1865 A little cooler than usual the 9th corps passed here this forenoon on their way to City Point. �Monday, April 24, 1865 Drew rations worked about an hour read and slept the rest of the time I.[?] Justin[?] is stopping with us now have a great time. Tuesday, April 25, 1865 Pleasant day and one appointed as a day of national mourning the 33rd Indt. Bat. have been firing every half hour all day. Wednesday, April 26, 1865 [No entry] Thursday, April 27, 1865 [No entry] Friday, April 28, 1865 [No entry] Saturday, April 29, 1865 Drew rations for the whole regiment to day will have a little more to do now but not enough to hurt any one. Sunday, April 30, 1865 Rained some last night pleasant to day Lt. Col. Baker of the 6th N.Y. Arty. mustered us for pay got the news that Booth the murderer of the president had been shot we are all heartily glad but would rather they had got him alive so as to hang him. Monday, May 1, 1865 Pleasant day drew potatoes and fresh beef nothing going on more than usual. Tuesday, May 2, 1865 Cooler than usual have not had much to do to day am having about as easy a time now as I ever had. �Wednesday, May 3, 1865 Had nothing to do to day got a letter from Maria wrote a letter to Eunice shall not answer Maria’s letter am a little suspicious that she has been meddling with my affairs if she has I want nothing more to do with her hope she will come out all right for I think a great deal of her will find out when I get home. Thursday, May 4, 1865 Pleasant and warm drew six days rations had considerable to do. Friday, May 5, 1865 Rained most all the forenoon did nothing but read and sleep pretty warm this afternoon. Saturday, May 6, 1865 Very hot day drew beef and bread Frank Green was here this afternoon he belongs[?] to the 9 th corps train. Sunday, May 7, 1865 Long lonesome day Frank Green out[?] here most all day. Monday, May 8, 1865 Very hot the 17th corps passed through town they look as if they had seen pretty hard times a little rain this evening. Tuesday, May 9, 1865 Slight shower of rain this the 15th corps passed this morning have had nothing to do to day. Wednesday, May 10, 1865 Rained some last night quite cool to day been down town this evening very pleasant saw some good looking women. Thursday, May 11, 1865 �Drew six days rations had plenty of work to do raining a little this evening. Friday, May 12, 1865 Pleasant but cool got twelve barrels of potatoes John Gillet Frank Rappole and myself went to Hatchers Run this afternoon with horses got some cherries and strawberries the country looks rather desolate down that way. Saturday, May 13, 1865 Pleasant but cool done nothing to day went to the theater this evening it did not amount to much. Sunday, May 14, 1865 To day the same as yesterday done nothing but read and sleep quite cool this evening. Monday, May 15, 1865 Pretty warm day done nothing this forenoon went to City Point this afternoon did not get back till after dark. Tuesday, May 16, 1865 Another very warm day drew one day’s ration of fresh beef had a strawberry cake for supper. Wednesday, May 18 17, 1865 Pretty warm day drew six days rations had to work rather hard. Thursday, May 17 18, 1865 The day about the same as yesterday a little rain this afternoon the quartermaster started for Washington to day and the Adj. and Maj. Cowles started for home. Friday, May 19, 1865 The weather about the same as yesterday drew fresh beef John [Gillett] Joe and myself went a strawberrying this afternoon had a squall of wind and rain got a letter from Eunice. �Saturday, May 20, 1865 Nothing to do as usual weather pretty warm. Sunday, May 21, 1865 Long lonesome day raining very hard this evening get a letter from Minnie Ward. Monday, May 22, 1865 Rained most all lat night with thunder cleared of[f] about nine oclock this morning the 6th N.Y. Arty. got orders to go to Danville they belong to our brigade. Tuesday, May 23, 1865 Had nothing to do to day took a ride this evening across the river. Wednesday, May 24, 1865 Drew seven days rations had considerable work to do Joe Frank John & I went and took a ride this evening went across the river towards Richmond like the country first rate out that way. Thursday, May 25, 1865 Drew beef and bread nothing much going on. Friday, May 26, 1865 Rained all day long lonesome day drew a few rations for some men that were returned from detached service. Saturday, May 27, 1865 Wet drizzly day had nothing to do quite cool this evening. Sunday, May 28, 1865 Long lonesome day wrote a letter to Minnie Ward went over to the slaughter house this evening to see about getting beef for tomorrow Lt. Cross got back from Washington to day. �Monday, May 29, 1865 Drew beef and bread got done at noon five of us went down towards “Point of Rocks” after cherries got lots of them came back by where we were last summer had quite a ride. Tuesday, May 30, 1865 Pretty warm did not go out into the street to day we are having very easy times now in a pleasant place too. Wednesday, May 31, 1865 Pleasant warm day drew six days rations the little girls of this place had a May party and crowned their queen a very pretty scene. Thursday, June 1, 1865 Very warm had nothing to do but read and sleep to[o] warm to do either and take comfort. Friday, June 2, 1865 Passed the day as usual took a ride this evening across the river. Saturday, June 3, 1865 Hot as oven drew two days beef. Sunday, June 4, 1865 Did not go out side of the yard to day very warm can not sleep for the heat and flies. Monday, June 5, 1865 To day the same as yesterday had a severe thunder storm a little before sundown cleared of[f] went round to the companies to get the number of men to draw rations. Tuesday, June 6, 1865 Quite cool this morning drew six days rations had considerable work to do. �Wednesday, June 7, 1865 Went out in the country to get cherries this morning tremendous hot took a ride this evening. Thursday, June 8, 1865 Drew one day’s beef and two day’s bread a little cooler than usual. Friday, June 9, 1865 Nothing to do hot as usual. Saturday, June 10, 1865 Drew one days beef had a hard thunder shower this afternoon like to have it rain. Sunday, June 11, 1865 Cloudy and cool went a blackberrying passed the day very comfortable wonder what Maria is doing this evening would like to see her although I have stopped corresponding with her. Monday, June 12, 1865 Another cool day drew six day’s rations had considerable work to do John and Joe went a blackberrying got a lot of them they went very well for supper. Tuesday, June 13, 1865 Pretty hot had nothing to do had a heavy thunder shower this afternoon. Wednesday, June 14, 1865 Cloudy and foggy in the morning cleared of[f] [illegible] drew one day’s ration of bread went out by the old works a blackberrying had a very heavy thunder shower this evening. Thursday, June 15, 1865 Drew two day’s ration of beef did not have anything else to do. �Friday, June 16, 1865 Pretty hot day did no work but went a blackberrying. Saturday, June 17, 1865 Drew six day’s rations had a short shower this afternoon all of the officers are at work at the muster out roll guess we will get out of this soon. Sunday, June 18, 1865 Pleasant warm day took a short ride this evening guess I am most done riding U.S. horses got a letter from Orville. Monday, June 19, 1865 Pleasant and hot drew one days bread went a riding this evening guess I can ride much more in Petersburg. Tuesday, June 20, 1865 Drew one days beef rained this afternoon. Wednesday, June 21, 1865 Pleasant and warm Q.M. Flowers turning over his things guess we shall get away from this place soon. Thursday, June 22, 1865 Nothing going on but talk about going home. Friday, June 23, 1865 Very hot day drew three days rations to take home with us all if the companies are here perhaps we will get off tomorrow. Saturday, June 24, 1865 Mustered out of the U.S. service this morning started about 6 o’clock for City Point on the cars am laying on the dock to night am with the Q.M. things have not been returned to the company begins to look something like getting home. �Sunday, June 25, 1865 Did not sleep much last night pretty hot this forenoon got started at half past eleven passed fort Monroe about six this evening rather rough out on the bay some of the boys are seasick I am on the Hd. Qr. boat Lady La[unintelligible] have got charge of the Qr. Mm. horse. Monday, June 26, 1865 Arrived in Baltimore at half past nine this morning stayed on the dock till afternoon with the baggage had a severe shower of rain took the cars for Phila at seven oclock begins to look something like getting home. Tuesday, June 27, 1865 Cool and pleasant got into Phila about sunrise had a good breakfast ferried across the river took the cars for Amboy around four[?] about two P.M. took the boat for New York had suf[unintelligible] got aboard of the steamer Huguenot for Albany will have to ride all night well we have got to our own state again the weather a little colder than at Petersburg. Wednesday, June 28, 1865 Rain all last night did not get into Albany about one o’clock this afternoon had dinner took the cars at six for Watertown guess we will get in there early tomorrow morning. Thursday, June 29, 1865 Got in to Watertown at half past three this morning got our breakfast at Washington Hall then I left there for home well I have got home again after almost three years. Friday, June 30, 1865 Pleasant and cool rather muddy in the road went to Sackets [Harbor] this morning we had to draw a few rations it has been a long time since I have been here before saw Mary Dimick had quite a visit with her think she has improved very much in three years have not seen Maria yet dont care much if I dont see her at all. Saturday, July 1, 1865 Went down town this morning got dis[unintelligible] till Friday morning have been to see Demaris this evening saw Georgia also am at Sams to night. �Sunday, July 2, 1865 Quite cool came home this morning Hunts folks have been home have been to Mr. Greens this evening have not seen Isadore before for almost three years dont think she had changed much in looks since I have been gone. Monday, July 3, 1865 Pleasant and cool went to Sackets Harbor this morning and again this afternoon and mowed a little pretty hard work to morrow is the fourth guess I shall stay at home. Tuesday, July 4, 1865 The weather the same as yesterday mowed part of the orchard went to Watertown in the afternoon with Frank Green saw a great crowd of people saw a number of girls from the corners Maria was there but I did not see her. Wednesday, July 5, 1865 Finished mowing the orchard then went up to Orvilles have not seen Maria yet wonder what she thinks because I do not go there. Thursday, July 6, 1865 Went to Watertown with Olive this morning stopped to see Willett about working got me some clothes up town came home and drew two loads of hay have got to go down to Sackets [Harbor] to morrow to get paid off and discharged called and seen Maria a few minutes this morning she looks good as ever shall go there again before long I think. Friday, July 7, 1865 Got up pretty early was at the Barracks before six oclock three companies of our regiment was paid the rest are to be paid tomorrow saw Frank Rappole came home with to stay all night Mary Dimick was down to the barracks to day she is a fine girl like her very much have agreed to go and see her. Saturday, July 8, 1865 Went to Sackets [Harbor] early this morning our company did not get paid till after five o clock went to see Mary Dimick had quite a serious talk with her I found I lost a great deal by not keeping up a correspondence with her while away suppose I shall have to give her up. �Sunday, July 9, 1865 Quite cool have laid around home all day Oscar Powers came here this evening to tell me that Willett did not want me dont know where I shall work. Monday, July 10, 1865 Went to Watertown with Frank Green have done no work yet must look up a place soon. Tuesday, July 11, 1865 Went to Watertown this morning had to go to the Harbor [Sackets Harbor?] after the doctor for father this evening Laid potatoes for Let Lamon part of the day have agreed to go to work for [?]arl Graves next Thursday. Wednesday, July 12, 1865 Worked around home a little am to Mr. Graves tonight am going to work tomorrow has rained some this evening. Thursday, July 13, 1865 Have worked all day for the first time in a long while am rather tired to night has been quite cold for this time of year guess I shall like it here very well wonder what Mary is doing this evening wish I was there to see. Friday, July 14, 1865 Quite cool got mowed this forenoon drew hay in the afternoon. Saturday, July 15, 1865 Pretty stiff today drew hay most all day [unintelligible] am I went up town this evening saw Frank Steele he and I agreed to go across the [unintelligible] to morrow. Sunday, July 16, 1865 Rained most all day went home got wet coming back. Monday, July 17, 1865 �Did not work very hard shook out the hay that got wet yesterday like it hin[?] very well. Tuesday, July 18, 1865 Drew a load of wood this morning we got in two loads of hay this afternoon the wind blew very hard could hardly keep the hay on the wagon. Wednesday, July 19, 1865 Wind blew quite hard cut barley with the machine till about two o’clock rained from that time till dark. Thursday, July 20, 1865 Cleared off this forenoon chopped a while this morning stired some[?] hay drew three loads this afternoon. Friday, July 21, 1865 Wet drizzling morning have not worked very hard to day the easiest times I ever had working out and get the biggest wages I ever did. Saturday, July 22, 1865 Did not do much this forenoon worked pretty [hard?] in the afternoon we drew five loads of hay am pretty tired. Sunday, July 23, 1865 Have stayed here all day reading most all of the time the day has passed quite pleasantly. Monday, July 24, 1865 Pleasant and warm worked pretty hard drawing barley and hay. Tuesday, July 25, 1865 Cut barley most all day have not worked very hard quit very early. Wednesday, July 26, 1865 �Chopped nearly all day a little rain cloudy and cool. Thursday, July 27, 1865 Helped Mr. Ives draw barley worked pretty hard quite warm am rather tired to night but have got my $1.50 though. Friday, July 28, 1865 Drew barley for Mr. Graves did not work very late some difference between this and Mr. Ive’s. Saturday, July 29, 1865 A rainy morning have not worked to day went to Watertown am down home this evening. Sunday, July 30, 1865 Stayed at home nearly all day Olive and Orville have been at home came to Mr. Graves this afternoon pleasant and cool this evening. Monday, July 31, 1865 Drew barley this forenoon Ike and I went up on the race course to reap oats did not get back till most dark have got to go again to morrow. Tuesday, August 1, 1865 Finished cutting oats and got back at [illeg.] Mr. Graves and I have been reaping oats the rest of the day Ike has been helping Mr. Ives draw barly. Wednesday, August 2, 1865 Finised cutting oats and cut a little grass such have not worked very hard quite warm. Thursday, August 3, 1865 Bound the grass and drew the stubble and four loads of oats worked quite late rather warm day. Friday, August 4, 1865 �Rained a little last night mowed the corners this forenoon finished drawing oats this afternoon. Saturday, August 5, 1865 Very warm day cut the last of the barley drew the scattering pieces of grass and sat in the house the rest of the time have earned nine dollars this week pretty good for me. Sunday, August 6, 1865 Stayed at Mr. Graves all day had a heavy shower this evening shall not work here but a day or two longer his work is nearly done. Monday, August 7, 1865 Cloudy and cool chopped all day till supper then turned over some barley am going to work tomorrow and that will finish up dont believe I shall get another place that will suit me as well. Tuesday, August 8, 1865 Drew barley have got done for Mr. Graves am at home to night dont [know] where I shall go next perhaps I shall go a sailing have earned since I got discharged $33.25. Wednesday, August 9, 1865 Very warm day cut a small piece of oats for father this morning came over to Orville’s this afternoon have been to see Maria this evening she is looking first rate. Thursday, August 10, 1865 Came home this morning rained most all day have done nothing but read and sleep. Friday, August 11, 1865 Have done nothing to day but go over after Eunice. Saturday, August 12, 1865 Worked quite hard for father drawing barley and oats. �Sunday, August 13, 1865 Helped Ed Green draw oats worked very hard am going out to Adams to morrow. Monday, August 14, 1865 Went to Adams this morning with Ed Green’s horse and buggy came back this evening stopped to see Mary Dimick had a good visit have promised to write to her from Oswego where I am going to morrow. Tuesday, August 15, 1865 Sarah took me to Watertown this morning early started from there at half past seven came as far as Richland on the car & then took the stage for Oswego arrived here about five oclock this afternoon am stopping at the “Munger House” have not seen any one I know yet shall look for George and Marcellus to morrow. Wednesday, August 16, 1865 Have run around the town most all day Marcellus has not arrived yet hope he will get here tomorrow dont like this town first rate. Thursday, August 17, 1865 Marcellus not here yet have passed the day in running around town nothing very interesting to be seen wonder what Maria is doing and thinking about this evening. Friday, August 18, 1865 Still waiting for Marcellus cant see the reason he is not here nice pleasant weather. Saturday, August 19, 1865 Reading and sitting round all day. Sunday, August 20, 1865 Marcellus came in last night George and I have been round some have moved down aboard the schooner J.F. Warner shall commence work tomorrow. Monday, August 21, 1865 �Slept my first night in a forecastle could not go it all night it was to warm so went on deck have worked today unloaded the wheat and got in part of a load of salt for Chicago will get away to morrow wrote and sent a letter to Mary Dimick. Tuesday, August 22, 1865 Finished taking in salt towed outside and started about eight this evening wind blowing pretty fresh. Wednesday, August 23, 1865 Arrived in the [Welland] canal at nine this evening. have been a little sick but not much. Thursday, August 24, 1865 Towed all last night and all day till about twelve to night am some tired. Friday, August 25, 1865 Commenced towing again this morning at daylight arrived at Port Colburn about two oclock this afternoon wind blowing hard down the lake got all ready to go out at sundown but the Capt. changed his mind and concluded to wait till morning. Saturday, August 26, 1865 Tug towed us out in the lake at daylight have been working up the lake all day wind still blowing fresh it is our watch on deck from eight till twelve to night I am in the Capts watch with Jeff Baker and George guess I will like sailing better than soldiering. Sunday, August 27, 1865 Pleasant and warm day nearly becalmed most of the day sleeping and reading was about all we had to do wind blowing pretty fresh down the lake now our watch below till twelve o’clock then above till four. Monday, August 28, 1865 Pleasant and warm light wind but fair got the tug to tow up the river about ten o’clock our long watch out to night. Tuesday, August 29, 1865 �Got up and took the wheel at six this morning had quite a shower of rain we were just going into Detroit river. nice warm day have steered over half the day. Wednesday, August 30, 1865 Got out on Lake Huron about twelve o’clock last night nice pleasant day fair wind but very light like sailing very well. Thursday, August 31, 1865 Wind all round the compass and part of the time no wind at all almost a calm now got a few miles above Presque Isle. Friday, Sept. 1, 1865 Lay becalmed nearly all last night had a light but a fair wind today got out of the straits into lake Michigan about six P.M. Saturday, Sept. 2, 1865 Had a light breeze all last night got around a head this morning but was fair this afternoon a dead calm now at eight this evening passed the Manitou island this afternoon are in sight now I had the wheel from six till eight this evening did not go a half a mile in the two hours. Sunday, Sept. 3, 1865 Pretty foggy nearly all last night and part of the day light wind till afternoon blowing quite fresh down the lake now have not far along towards Chicago to day. Monday, Sept. 4, 1865 Worked up under the west shore last night got a free wind this forenoon pretty light though wind almost headed us off just now passed Sheboygan at sundown to night. Tuesday, Sept. 5, 1865 Light weather yet have not got but a little way to day passed Milwaukee this afternoon pleasant and warm have got to take the wheel at eight this evening no wind hard enough for steerage way. �Wednesday, Sept. 6, 1865 To day about the same as yesterday just got relieved from the wheel at eight o’clock working up under the west shore with a light breeze. Thursday, Sept. 7, 1865 Becalmed all last night got a good breeze about nine this morning so we could just lay our course began to rain at eleven this morning the tug took hold of us at two did not get in and tied up till most dark. Friday, Sept. 8, 1865 Commenced to discharge our load this afternoon I have been up town could not sleep for the muskeetoes last night my birth day 26 years old to day. Saturday, Sept. 9, 1865 Did not work much helped hoist out a few sacks of salt towed down the creek to Sturgis warehouse to load corn for Oswego went to the theater this evening. Sunday, Sept. 10, 1865 Pretty warm laid around the deck all day some rain this afternoon. Monday, Sept. 11, 1865 Hauled under the elevators this morning got loaded about noon did not tow out till abut three this afternoon fair wind sliding down the lake quite fast. Tuesday, Sept. 12, 1865 Fair and a strong wind ever since we left Chicago looks rather black to night dont know but we will have a dirty night have just come below to turn in at eight o’clock. Friday, Sept. 15, 1865 Crossed Saginaw bay last night wind blowed hard all night has not been very fresh to day on the look out for a tug to take us through the river. Saturday, Sept. 16, 1865 �Did not get a great way last night head wind this morning a tug took us about eight this morning met a large fleet coming out of the river this afternoon I will have all night below to night expect to get out on lake Erie about daylight tomorrow morning. Sunday, Sept. 17, 1865 Got out of the river about five this morning fair wind till after three got a squall from the N.E. had to reef raining pretty hard now but not much wind now it is my wheel now at eight this evening. Monday, Sept. 18, 1865 The weather was all night lat night till twelve except a little rain the wind came on to blow very hard then had to take in more sail hung out till about three then came off before it for Point Aux Pla [Pointe aux Peaux, Mich.? Point aux Pins, Ontario?] got in and anchor down at nine this morning are here now the wind still blowing hard a large fleet of vessels laying here. Tuesday, Sept. 19, 1865 Got under weigh at nine o’clock this morning wind came fair before noon are running down the lake with a fair but light wind a large fleet of vessels in company with us my wheel from eight till ten this evening. Wednesday, Sept. 20, 1865 Light but fair wind running down the lake nice and smooth. Thursday, Sept. 21, 1865 Got into the [Welland] canal at day light this morning fitted out locked[?] right through we are about to Allanburg [Ontario] now at eight this evening expect to tow all night. Friday, Sept. 22, 1865 Tied up at Thorold [Ontario] about twelve last night started at daylight this morning got through to Port Dalhousie [Ontario] about four o’clock this afternoon hauled alongside of the pier to wait for a propeler to load that is to tow us to Oswego because it is head wind am some tired and quite sick. Saturday, Sept. 23, 1865 Propeler got hold of us about four this morning have been towing along nice all day am quite sick have just left the wheel now at eight o’clock off Sodus light. �Sunday, Sept. 24, 1865 Arrived in Oswego about twelve o’clock last night rained some this morning expect to get unloaded and out to night have worked at it most all day. Monday, Sept. 25, 1865 Got unloaded about one o’clock rained very hard did not go out as we expected wind blowing hard down the lake all day dont know when we will get out George went home sick this morning the boys signed articles for the passage up at a dollar per day. Tuesday, Sept. 26, 1865 Towed out about daylight with the wind from the North wind died away almost a calm now just left the wheel at eight o’clock. Wednesday, Sept. 27, 1865 Got to Toronto a little before dark have been around town some this evening quite a nice place for Canada. Thursday, Sept. 28, 1865 Commenced to load barley about noon have not done much myself expect to get loaded some time to night. Friday, Sept. 29, 1865 Got loaded and underweigh about ten last night wind very light did not get ten miles before daylight got the wind ahead then did not fetch the canal till eight this evening expect to tow all night. Saturday, Sept. 30, 1865 Towed all night and all day to day have just passed Allanburg about sundown. Sunday, October 1, 1865 Arrived at Gravelly Bay [now Port Colborne, Ont.] last night about eleven wind blowing down the lake have had an easy day of it guess we will stay here all night. �Monday, October 2, 1865 Got underweigh a little after eight this morning wind free enough so we can just lay our course abeam of Long Point light now at eight have just left the wheel. Thursday, October 5, 1865 Got through to Port Huron about noon wind blowing hard down the lake are laying here waiting for a change of wind dont think we will get out till morning. Friday, October 6, 1865 Tug towed us outside about eight this morning fair wind all day running along nice quite a warm day to what we have had. Saturday, October 7, 1865 Fair wind quite strong now just left the wheel now at eight two reefs in the mainsail rained most all off the afternoon. Sunday, October 8, 1865 Cleared off but rather cool fair wind till about noon but very light got out on lake Michigan at noon [?] ahead. Monday, October 9, 1865 Wind blowing hard from the South hung out till afternoon then went under Beaver Island and came to anchor went a shore with the boat this evening. Tuesday, October 10, 1865 Got underweigh about nine this morning with the wind from the east light baffling wind all day we are having the wind about two points free now at eight o’clock and my wheel the warmest day we have had in some time. Wednesday, October 11, 1865 Light baffling winds till five o’clock then got it from the North blowing very hard now at eight in the evening have just taken in our mainsail. �Thursday, October 12, 1865 Blowed very hard all night wind died away a little at daylight pretty heavy sea rolling passed Milwaukee about one to day it is my wheel now at eight and blowing like the devil again from the Northeast. Friday, October 13, 1865 Double reefed the mainsail and took in the jib-topsail and the gafftopsail as soon as I got the wheel last night got off Chicago about twelve last night let go and held on till morning got underweigh and towed in about eleven A.M. wind gone down some to night. Saturday, October 14, 1865 Have not done much to day hauled across the river shall not unload till Monday. Sunday, October 15, 1865 Run around town some last night wind blowing a gale this morning from the North lost of vessels that went out yesterday run back some came in and about forty lay anchored portside dare not try to come in. Monday, October 16, 1865 Unloaded barley to day just got done and towed out side for Milwaukee at eight in the evening light but fair wind three dollars a day commenced[?] this morning. Tuesday, October 17, 1865 Had a good stiff breeze the latter part of the night got here to Milwaukee this morning about eight some rain to day have not done much since we got here and tied up wages three dollars for day. Wednesday, October 18, 1865 Rainy day loaded this afternoon are not going out till morning guess I shall stay a board this evening and go to bed early. Thursday, October 19, 1865 Towed out about ten this morning strong wind from the west blowed our jibtopsail to pieces and a big hole in the mainsail wind died away some now. �Friday, October 20, 1865 Blowed a gale from the Northwest washed the deck pretty clean we up wheel about disrederon[?] to go under the South Manitou the light is close in to us now at eight I just left the wheel. Saturday, October 21, 1865 We let go a little before ten last night in thirteen fathom of smooth water got underweigh again this afternoon about four o’clock light wind from the Northwest. Sunday, October 22, 1865 South wind this forenoon hauled round to the West got into the straits about eleven lay to anchor about three hours this afternoon off Cheboygan are going along finely now with the wind from the Northwest had a slight flurry of snow this afternoon. Monday, October 23, 1865 Pleasant day the first one in some time pass across Saginaw bay with the wind on our port quarter passed poin[t] Aux Barques light at five this evening my wheel now at eight. Tuesday, October 24, 1865 Sailed into the river this morning about four o’clock no tug to take us so had to let go in the stream schooner Gordell on the bank tug pulled her off she dragged down foul of us tore him up considerable got a tug as last am at Detroit now at eight in the evening. Wednesday, October 25, 1865 Got outside and made sail about eleven last night wind fair for Point aux Plu [Pointe aux Peaux, Mich.? Point aux Pins, Ontario?] passed it about ten to day working down now with the wind almost dead ahead just a nice wholesail breeze. Thursday, October 26, 1865 Worked along down all night this morning about six the wind on to blow from the East blew very strong we up wheel and send for Pidgeon Bay got here and let go about noon just got close my anchor watch blowing and raining like the devil now. �Friday, October 27, 1865 Blowed from the Northeast and rained all day are snug at anchor yet and will till the blow is over with pretty easy with this. Saturday, October 28, 1865 Got out at daylight found the wind from the Northwest blowing right into the bay got underweigh wind came on to blow a gale with snow and rainy could barely work out of the bay got around the point and let go again about noon are laying here now at eight in the evening expect we will getting out of here as the wind has gone down considerable. Sunday, October 29, 1865 Got underweigh last night about ten have been running along with a fair wind since will get into the canal to night sometime has been a pleasant day. Monday, October 30, 1865 Arrived at Gravelly Bay this morning about daylight a large fleet ahead of us so did not lock till afternoon are going across the long level now. Tuesday, October 31, 1865 Tied up last night about twelve a little above Allanburg a vessel su[?] in the lock quite a fleet jamed in here got started this morning about light have got along rather slow rained some to day. Wednesday, Nov. 1, 1865 Tied up last night in the level between locks 8 and 9 The towpath pretty muddy got through to Port Dalhousie about eleven towed outside about one are running down the lake close on the wind going slow at that. Thursday, November 2, 1865 Had a fair wind all day a strong one too got here to Cape Vincent about sundown expect to go home to morrow morning. Friday, November 3, 1865 Took the train this morning for home got here about nine have not done anything but sat around and talk. �Saturday, November 4, 1865 Came back this morning expect some to go to Kingston to night for a load of iron the Lord only knows when I shall go home again as I am going to stop up west this winter got unloaded and are anchored out in the river to night. Sunday, November 5, 1865 Cold bad day Northwest wind snowing most all day did not do much but sit by the fire to day a tug came from Kingston after us will not take us till morning on account of the weather. Monday, November 6, 1865 Hove up the anchor about daylight and started got the wind ahead with snow in a little while the tug got us into the harbor and could not hold us against the wind and let us go on the bridge had quite a time of it has snowed most all day snowing and blowing now like fun am glad we are not outside. Tuesday, November 7, 1865 The gang has been at work all day putting in the ore some snow squalls very rough weather Kingston is a pretty tough place I guess. Wednesday, November 8, 1865 Got loaded a little after dark the weather looks bad dont believe we will get away till morning very cold day but has not stormed. Thursday, November 9, 1865 Towed out about two this afternoon wind from the North but quite light have just got a reef in the mainsail it looks like more wind. Friday, November 10, 1865 Very cold last night ice made on the deck have not had much wind to day guess we will get into the canal the fore part of the night will have a cold time towing this time through. Saturday, November 11, 1865 �Commenced towing about five this morning pretty cold but pleasant suppose we will have to tow till twelve because we will have Sunday to day still. Sunday, November 12, 1865 Towed till twelve last night ice made on the line are tied up at Thorold John Root[?] and I went up to Niagara falls the grandest sight I ever saw. Monday, November 13, 1865 Commenced towing about four this morning nice pleasant day did not get to the Bay till about seven this evening wind from the Southwest are tied up for the night. Tuesday, November 14, 1865 The warmest day we have had for a long time wind down the lake did not tow out till about sundown we are by the wind bound for Cleaveland. Wednesday, November 15, 1865 Head wind ever since we left the Bay. Just a wholesail breeze was abreast of Long Point at twelve to day my wheel now at eight and almost a calm. Thursday, November 16, 1865 Nice warm day light wind from the South very pleasant weather for this time of year just left the wheel at eight o’clock expect to get in about daylight in the morning. Friday, November 17, 1865 Had a pleasant night towed in about eight this morning dirty smokey city expect I have had my last night outside for this fall. Saturday, November 18, 1865 A nice warm day was knocked off pay this morning but there is some talk of going to Toledo in the morning. Sunday, November 19, 1865 Towed outside about nine had a fair wind but rather light nice warm day for this time of year. �Monday, November 20, 1865 Got up to the mouth of the river about five this morning the wind blowing out of the river to[o] we had to let got and wait for a tug she took us about sunrise wen[t]? up here to Toledo and tied up before ten o’clock intend to start tomorrow for Saginaw. Tuesday, November 21, 1865 Settled up and got my pay this morning and started on the steamer “City of Toledo” about ten o’clock arrived at Detroit about five this evening she is to lay here till tomorrow am all alone to night not a single person aboard I ever saw before to day. Wednesday, November 22, 1865 Did not leave Detroit till three this afternoon wind blowing quite fresh from the Northwest dont think this boat will go outside to night would like to see her going for I am anxious to get to Saginaw. Thursday, November 23, 1865 Arrived at Port Huron about daylight this morning wind down the lake hve been here all day rather dull business. Friday, November 24, 1865 Got underweigh about two this morning have had a nice day was up to Point aux Barques before four this afternoon have got some more wind now at eight o’clock. Saturday, November 25, 1865 Arrived at Bay City about eight this morning did not get away from there till about noon had a chance to go to work there came on up here to East Saginaw do not like this place first rate had an opportunity to chop all winter think shall go back to Bay City and take the offer there nice pleasant weather. Sunday, November 26, 1865 Went to look at some land about seven miles from this place like it very well but it covered with woods. Monday, November 27, 1865 �Went out on the cars this morning as far as Bridgeport came back a part[?] the country out that way looks good have hired out to go chop out about four miles from this place towards Bridgeport saw Mina Smith to day in the street have been to see her this evening she was the first person I have met with that I ever saw before. Tuesday, November 28, 1865 Commenced work this afternoon for a Dutchman am boarding with a man by the name of De Hart am pretty tired to night will get used to it soon. Wednesday, November 29, 1865 Warm pleasant day chopped all day and pretty tired and sore to night a jolly lot of people to my boarding place Mr. & Mrs. Phillips their son and daughter a gay laughing girl of about of about fifteen they are to move soon will be lonesome when they are gone. Thursday, November 30, 1865 Commenced to snow about ten snowed very hard all day did not work any this afternoon sat in the house read till my head aches severely. Friday, December 1, 1865 Snow about three inches deed[?] pleasant day chopped all day do not feel as tired as usual guess I am getting seasoned to work. Saturday, December 2, 1865 Quite warm day worked pretty hard smoky and cloudy snow part gone. Sunday, December 3, 1865 Warm pleasant day done nothing but write a letter to Alvin Gardner sat in the house and read the rest of the time raining some this evening. Monday, December 4, 1865 A still cloudy day Mr. Phillips moved to day broke my axe h[?] about noon so went to town this afternoon a little more quiet than usual. �Tuesday, December 5, 1865 Mud froze up pretty hard this morning pleasant and warm through the day have worked pretty hard chopping to day. Wednesday, Dec. 6, 1865 Pleasant but cool thawed in the sun have worked pretty hard. Thursday, December 7, 1865 A little colder than yesterday did not work as late to night as last night am quite tired. Friday, December 8, 1865 Pleasant but quite cold the ground froze up hard have worked pretty hard did not get to my boarding place till after dark. Saturday, December 9, 1865 Pleasant this forenoon snowed a little this afternoon weather cold did not work very late to night. Sunday, December 10, 1865 Very pleasant day quite warm for this time of year what little fell yesterday is all gone now did nothing but go into the woods for beechnuts and sit in the house and read. Monday, December 11, 1865 Quite warm and pleasant have worked pretty hard to day chopped over two cords of wood guess I will go to bed. Tuesday, December 12, 1865 Quite warm this forenoon wind got round to the west and snowed a little very cold this evening. Wednesday, Dec. 13, 1865 Pretty cold day was gone in the woods all day chopping ground froze up hard. �Thursday, December 14, 1865 A very cold day went to East town did not get back till after dark went to see Mr. Phillips people Alvina’s eyes are as black as ever. Friday, December 15, 1865 Have worked quite hard to day very cold snow some this after noon have been writing to mother this evening. Saturday, December 16, 1865 Another cold day did not work as hard as usual no snow yet to speak of dont care if we dont have any this winter it is better getting round in the woods to chop with no snow. Sunday, December 17, 1865 Pleasant not as cold as yesterday took a walk in the woods the rest of the time I sat in the house wrote a letter to Frank Steele wish I was there this evening am pretty lonesome here to night makes me think of home but I have no home where has any home been for the last three years where night happened to overtake me will it be so for the next three years assume[?] so. Monday, December 18, 1865 Did not work all day snowed most all the afternoon raining now this evening guess we shall have no sleighing this winter well it is better for chopping to have no snow. Tuesday, December 19, 1865 Wet and foggy in the morning weather changed very cold this evening did not feel very well so did not do much have got a violint cold guess I shall not work much if I feel as unwell to morrow as I do now. Wednesday, Dec. 20, 1865 Pretty cold day begin to snow about three this afternoon snowed very hard and still kept at it have worked quite hard to day. Thursday, December 21, 1865 �Cold but pleasant snow about ten inches deep did not chop any to day helped Mr. Phillips kill his pigs this forenoon went to town this afternoon did not get home till after dark the first ride in a sleigh in almost four years. Friday, December 22, 1865 Pretty cold day worked till dark not quite as good getting round in the woods as before the snow came. Saturday, December 23, 1865 Went to the woods but did not stay long broke my axe helve[?] did nothing the rest of the time not quite as cold as yesterday. Sunday, December 24, 1865 South wind thawing a little hope the snow will all go off have been lonesome and almost homesick but would rather be here than where I was one year ago. Monday, December 25, 1865 Quite warm not very good sleighing went to town in the forenoon this evening a sleigh load of us went up to “Pine Run” to a dance found a girl with a drunken partner got her for myself guess I will have a pretty good time. Tuesday, December 26, 1865 Did not get home till ten o’clock to day had a very good time had a good partner for a stranger my first Christmas in Michigan a little better than I had in the last three years. Wednesday, Dec. 27, 1865 Snowed a little last night went to work this morning cut my foot before I had cut the first stick had to come home can not step on it to night. Thursday, December 28, 1865 Thawed a little laid in the house all day doing nothing but reading and sleeping pretty lonesome fair snowing[?] again to night. �Friday, December 29, 1865 Nothing to do but stay in the house am rather lonesome will be glad when my foot gets well am earning nothing and have to pay for my board so as it is pretty slow getting along. Saturday, December 30, 1865 A little colder than usual have not been out doors five minutes today my foot improving slowly Mr. De Hart’s people have got a house full of company to night well I have got up in one corner out of the way. Sunday, December 31, 1865 Pleasant day the house still full have had quite a visit with a young lady one of the crowd how different from what I was doing one year ago to night then I was a soldier exposed to a violent storm of snow with no shelter now I am comfortable if I had got a comfort so this year goes out. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Civil War and Slavery Collection Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Slavery--United States African Americans United States--Politics and government--19th century Description An account of the resource A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemmen, Harvey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1804-1897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg; application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image; Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1804-1897 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Whitley Read Civil War diary Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1865 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Read, Whitley, 1839-1914 Description An account of the resource This diary was kept by soldier Whitley Read detailing his last year of service in the 10th New York Heavy Artillery, Company H. It also focuses on his postwar service on a Great Lakes Schooner. The last pages of the diary include brief memoranda and cash accounts. Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 United States. Army. New York Artillery Shipping Diaries Michigan New York (State) Sackets Harbor (N.Y.) Petersburg (Va.) Great Lakes (North America) Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-52_WR_diary Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitley Read Civil War diary, (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b195f1bd5bb31fa97428e87c792d66b7.jpg 2efaabf0447a004c7cc63727fb7aa52c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WhitneyGleaves_Photo01 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Whitney, Gleaves Description An account of the resource Gleaves Whitney, Director of the Hauenstein Center Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College administrators Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/63240ced37228cfa3b79f767e185852f.jpg cc00bcb91ab0acb15dd4f1559f93cec9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WhitneyGleaves_Photo02 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Whitney, Gleaves Description An account of the resource Gleaves Whitney, Director of the Hauenstein Center Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College administrators Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bda7201abe0ddca8cd346fa525bf39ae.pdf 41a95ce7c3b1d1df6f9da4abacea24de PDF Text Text o are Determining Gender and its Consequences for Tranc.111---..,..,..~ er Rights eptember 25th at 4 P·~e e room, Kirkhof Center • «When you have to turn into a chrysalis ... and then after that into a butterfly, I should think you'll feel it a little queer." Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland ,-J A~~ W1-GBTREsouRcECE TER I / For more information: www.gvsu.edu/lgH � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource GVSU Sexuality and Gender Flyers Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Rainbow Resource Center Women and Gender Studies Department Women's Commission Gayle R. Davis Center for Women and Gender Equity Description An account of the resource Digitized posters, flyers, event notices, and other materials relating to gender expression and sexuality at Grand Valley State University, with materials spanning from 1974 to 2019. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1974/2019 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digitized from collections at the Rainbow Resource Center (formerly the Milton E. Ford LGBT Resource Center), Women and Gender Studies Department, Women's Commission, and Gayle R. Davis Center for Women and Gender Equity. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Gender identity Gender expression Sexual orientation Women's studies Queer theory Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-09 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Language A language of the resource eng Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-09_SGF_LGBTQ_2012_Determining-Gender-&-Consequences-for-Transgender-Rights-Poster.pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-09-25 Title A name given to the resource Who are You? Determining Gender and its Consequences for Transgender Rights Description An account of the resource Poster with a reflective quote on the topic, and information of the event, including the place, time and date. Subject The topic of the resource Sexual minorities Community centers Gender identity Transsexualism Transgender people - Legal status, laws, etc. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived The Rainbow Resource Center Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Rainbow Resource Center https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dc1da285a4c5647c4ce8ca3b939b53b0.mp3 cdfef71d6353964e201b7a72598cd68a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Pentecost XI Series Trust in God Scripture Text Isaiah 46:3-4 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-19900819 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1990-08-19 Title A name given to the resource Who Carries Us Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on August 19, 1990 entitled "Who Carries Us", as part of the series "Trust in God", on the occasion of Pentecost XI, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: Isaiah 46:3-4. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/291c1f268567e88d20a69b509a265f8d.mp3 8cfcb22e362f9f133d3884a56250eeff Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Pentecost IX Series Trust in God Scripture Text Jeremiah 18:6 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-19900805 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1990-08-05 Title A name given to the resource Who Changes Faithfully Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on August 5, 1990 entitled "Who Changes Faithfully", as part of the series "Trust in God", on the occasion of Pentecost IX, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: Jeremiah 18:6. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b5ea97054dc8dcf205484439419e7b97.mp3 39349cf46d3a6c4c81ff5c130ca6762f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Pentecost VIII Series Trust in God Scripture Text Micah 7: 18-19 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-19900729 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1990-07-29 Title A name given to the resource Who Forgives the Unforgivable Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on July 29, 1990 entitled "Who Forgives the Unforgivable", as part of the series "Trust in God", on the occasion of Pentecost VIII, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: Micah 7: 18-19. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3ace7d8e491e2a80ace954f804eb2ac3.mp3 d34c045dba361c7afcf4e966d22328dd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Trinity Sunday Scripture Text Micah 7:18, Romans 8:31, 39 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-19890521 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1989-05-21 Title A name given to the resource Who Is a God Like Thee? Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on May 21, 1989 entitled "Who Is a God Like Thee?", on the occasion of Trinity Sunday, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: Micah 7:18, Romans 8:31, 39. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a6c0ea24f647a62c1a757997a65fe27d.mp3 79f100094580211603bf246900adb9d1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Pentecost XII Series Trust in God Scripture Text I Kings 19: 1-18 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-19900826 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1990-08-26 Title A name given to the resource Who Keeps Us on the Move When We Would Rather Give Up Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on August 26, 1990 entitled "Who Keeps Us on the Move When We Would Rather Give Up", as part of the series "Trust in God", on the occasion of Pentecost XII, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: I Kings 19: 1-18. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives