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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Frank Warner
(01:14:53)
(00:15) Background Information
•
•
•

Frank was born in Michigan in 1918 and grew up during the depression
His father died four months before he was even born
His mother played the organ and piano for movies and his grandparents helped raise him

(4:45) School
•
•
•
•

He lived near the city and went to a larger elementary school, which he walked to
He was into music and played the drums and also sang
In high school he loved football and also ran in track
He hated school and did not like to study; he got bad grades

(10:40) Michigan State University
•
•
•

Grand did not have enough money to attend college right out of high school
He got a job sailing the Great Lakes to help ship iron ore and worked his way through
college
Frank studied forestry at MSU and also met his wife there

(17:15) Pearl Harbor
•
•

Frank said that he will always remember Roosevelt’s speech the day after Pearl Harbor
was attacked
Frank was still in college at the time and then thought that war was inevitable and terrible

(19:15) Joining the Service in 1942
•
•

Frank was pretty sure he was going to be drafted, so he took an exam for pilot training
because he wanted to have a choice if he was joining the service
He had never been in a plane before

(21:40) Training in the Air Corps
•
•
•
•

Their motto was that you have to take orders first before you can give them
He had to wake up every day at 4:30AM
Training was very disciplined and rigorous
They were in Georgia for primary training and then they went to basic training in
Arkansas

�•
•
•
•

They never took a break from different training forts and they traveled to a different state
every nine weeks
He went through advanced training in Indiana and worked with 1810 twin engine planes
Frank was then sent to Idaho to meet his crew
All the missions that Frank went on were in 1944 and they flew P-24s, which could carry
lots of bombs

(30:50) Fresno, California
•
•

They simulated the war conditions and flew over the desert
Frank learned to use the Norton bomb sight

(34:00) The Bomb Runs
•
•
•
•

They would drop boxes of tinsel over the enemy to distort their view
Frank flew a total of 41 missions in B-24s and many were very dangerous
There was a very high rate of casualties
There were psychiatrists that worked with the men because they had problems caused by
their very dangerous missions

(36:45) The Plain Caught on Fire
•
•
•

They were en route to France from Italy
The engine caught on fire so he dove down to try to put it out
The engineer told him that it was impossible

(40:00) Contacts with the States
•
•
•
•

Frank wrote to his wife every night
Officers went through their letters to make sure that no important information was being
leaked
His wife worked for a telephone company in Lansing
Frank was never able to call her or anyone else

(43:40) European Missions
•
•
•
•
•

Their tail-gunner was shot on their first mission
The navigator’s propeller exploded and he ejected, but his parachute did not open
Frank’s plane was the only one still able to drop bombs
He flew over the Adriatic Sea many times
They bombed oil fields and refineries to slow down German movement

(48:40) Life After the Service

�•
•
•
•

Frank did not serve a second time because he had a young son and wife waiting for him,
but had he stayed, he could have made lieutenant kernel
Frank worked as a commercial fisherman in the Florida Keys for 14 years
They had to file a report every day with the government and keep track of all the fish
that they caught and sold so that the area would not be over-fished
The area contains the only living reef in the US

(55:35) Back in Michigan
•
•

One of his children was born in Texas and the other two were born in Michigan
All three of his children graduated from Central Michigan University

�Crew Position

Frank

~'larner,

First Name

last Name

2nd Lt.
Rank

E.
MI

'0-811476
A. S. N.

Pilot

1024
MOS

Job Title

HISTORICAL RECORD
Dote . No.

Award

Time

Date Recoa

Total I

GO No.

17 Apri}. 44 GO #433

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12 May

.

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I

Remarks

GO No.

.

26 Jun 44­
30 Jun

44

VICTORIES
" ',' Destroyed - Credit
No &amp; Type Adt

No.

Date

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.;

I

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~

Damaged

ProbaMe - Credit
Date

No.

.

No &amp; Type Adt

Date

No.

No. &amp; Type Acft

�"

.:

HEADQ,UbRTERS

46l3T BOii3Af.D1:ENT GROUP (h"V) AAF


lIPO 520 c/o PI\.:
13
Deoember
SUBJECT:

Unit Citation

TO

All concerned

1. The 45lst Bombardment Group (fW) was cited&gt; in General
Orders 4187, !~adquarters Fifteenth Air Force, APO 520, US brmy,
26 October 1944, tor outstanding perforlliance of duty in armed co
. . . ith the enem.y on 15 July 1944. This citation was approved by 01
iried letter 330.13 Subject: Unit Citation, Headquarters United
Army Air Forces luediterranean Theater of Operations United 3tate
Army, APO 650, dated 22 November 1944. Whereupo~ the inclusion a
Unit Citation in :iar Department General Orders becomes aut.omat Lc
Cir 333 - 1943). The plain blue streamer was presented to the 46
BOflbardment Group (rN) on 3 December 1944 by Brigadier General C
Bo:cn... Dep.u.ty CCUIllIlat\.d.a.:c:f

"ii:fte.~~t.h.

Ai.r ~o.rc~.

2. 2nd L~ J'ra.ok E. warner 0EU1.47&amp;
was an assigne
member or this Group on 15 ;U1,.. 19M ana is, pursuant to authori
contained in par 4a (I) War Department Circular 333 (1943), auth
to wear the Distinguished Unit Badge.

By order of Colonel HAaEa:

R. FOS'!'FRB-GOTT

kajar, Air corp.

OFFICW:

~f~~t8~~
RICfIbRD L. RUSSEY
:Vc;JG

USA.

J

Assistant Adjutant.

Adj utant,

�</text>
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                    <text>1
Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23
Mrs. David Warner
Interviewed on September 30, 1971
Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com
Tapes #22, 23 (56:32)
Biographical Information
Mary Jeanette Shelly, the daughter of James R. Shelly and Mary Isabel Hayes was born
in Grand Rapids in March 1888. Jeanette died in Grand Rapids on 7 December 1974. She
married David A. Warner on 26 November 1908 in Marine City, St. Clair County,
Michigan. David A. Warner was born 7 October 1883 in New York, the son of David S.
Warner and Louisa Jumph. David died in Grand Rapids on 24 September 1966.
_____________
Interviewer: Were you born in Grand Rapids, Mrs. Warner?
Mrs. Warner: yes.
Interviewer: What was your family‟s name?
Mrs. Warner: Shelly, S-H-E-L-L-Y. That‟s an English name or an Irish name, of
course, and my father was in the furniture business. That was Berkey and Gay and the
Luce Furniture Company. And my mother-neither one of my parents were born here. My
father was born in Rochester, New York, and my mother was born in Detroit. And they
both moved through the years as younger people to Grand Rapids and then we lived here
always.
Interviewer: Where did you live?
Mrs. Warner: Well, we lived on Paris Avenue which was a residential street then, if you
know where it is. Between Logan and Wealthy was a residential area. That‟s where I
grew up as a child. But my father died when he was quite a young man, forty-two I
remember, of pneumonia. It was one of those things that happened to people. And my
mother carried on. I had a brother who died. Jim died I guess about five or ten years,
eight or nine years ago and I have a sister living in New York… a much younger sister
and that‟s the only family I have.
Interviewer: What was the… go ahead.
Mrs. Warner: I was married very young. Mr. Warner was at the University of Michigan
and he came to Grand Rapids. He had a connection, you see-like the young lawyers dowith one of the lawyers in Grand Rapids who‟s long since dead, and that‟s the way he
established in Grand Rapids.

�2

Interviewer: Was he from Grand Rapids?
Mrs. Warner: No, he was born in Rochester, New York.
Interviewer: Oh, your husband was?
Mrs. Warner: Yes, they were both…it was funny that they, not that they know each other
but they were both came from Rochester.
Interviewer: What was the… what was it like on Paris Avenue when you were growing
up as a child?
Mrs. Warner: Well, it was a very nice, happy neighborhood with children- families with
children-and one thing that I think of funny things in connection with it. It was one of the
first streets to be paved with a hard surface. And on a summer evening -it was when
bicycles became so popular- and that block, two or three blocks from Wealthy down to
Logan with people would come with their bicycles, men and women, not children, and
some of them tandems on bicycles and ride up and down and up and down on that
because it was a hard surface. And my ambition, I remember, as a child was to have a
bicycle, and at last I achieved the age, reached the age when my father thought I should
have a bicycle. We had, I think sometimes that children…we had simpler lives and I
think it was, in a way, happier. I was reading this afternoon about a book about Fourth of
July-the celebration of Fourth of July. Why, that was a great thing. You probably don‟t
remember when you celebrated the Fourth of July. Oh, you planned, had for weeks and
collected what you could in the way of funds to buy the firecrackers and things and then
someone in the neighborhood on the block or so, some father would do an evening
display of fireworks. But (we) used to get up at three or four o‟clock in the morning and
go and rouse each other and get out there and shoot firecrackers. Now that was
considered very gay. We loved it. Things like that that were so simple.
Interviewer: Were there city-wide celebrations too, were there big things where…?
Mrs. Warner: Oh, there was always a…usually a speaker or someone gave an oration in
the park and a parade sometimes. I don‟t remember much about… I don‟t think I was
ever taken to a Fourth of July Parade or anything of that kind. We were quite far, in a
way, quite far out from downtown. We were… the streetcars ran on Wealthy, ran from
Wealthy Street-line ran from out here which was Ramona, an amusement park was
located on this land that‟s here on the lake. And the street railway company owned the
amusement park. And the Wealthy street cars ran from here out to North Park. Do you
know where North Park is?
Interviewer: Yeah.
Mrs. Warner: Yes. Well, that was one line that ran. That was called the Wealthy-Taylor
Line.

�3

Interviewer: It would go from out here at Ramona downtown and then go north?
Mrs. Warner Yes, then go out…what we called lower Monroe was called Canal Street at
that time.
Interviewer: Why was it called Canal Street?
Mrs. Warner: Well, because of the canal along there. Then there was a canal adjacent
to the river. And it ran along there then it turned and went up. I can‟t remember where it
turned and went up and then it went out what was Taylor Avenue out to North Park and
turned around out there. And we used to go streetcar riding. That was a great thing for
an evening, a summer evening. You always got in the front seat, if you could, and you
went the whole trip. Came round trip, it cost five cents. Life was really quite simple and
pleasant.
Interviewer: Were the families pretty close in the neighborhood?
Mrs. Warner: Oh yes, they were, oh, a good neighborly feeling more, some more than
others, some were closer than others. A doctor lived across the street from us and I was
friendly with, quite friendly with their children his children and with the family. And
there was a Colonel [Loomis K.] Bishop lived on the corner [now 457 Paris] and he was a
Civil War veteran and he‟d been made the postman officer, post master here in Grand
Rapids as an award for you know-there was-the political assignments of that kind often
were given to military men. And Colonel and Annie Bishop, they were very nice to
children.
Interviewer: Did they have any children of their own?
Mrs. Warner: No, they were older; they were quite a little older. They were awfully nice
about cookies and things like that.
Interviewer: Did you go to school in Grand Rapids then?
Mrs. Warner: Yes, at that time my family, well, they were all Catholic. We were
Catholics and, as a matter of fact, we were the only Catholics on that… in that immediate
neighborhood. Not that it made any difference except for the fact that I went to Saint
Andrew‟s School, Catholic School, which was way down on Sheldon Avenue where the
Cathedral is if you know where the Saint Andrew‟s Cathedral is. And I went there and
the other children went to what was called Lafayette School, which was there, well it‟s
Vandenberg now I think, and we went down together. We walked together but I had to
continue on much further. And do you know that we went, we walked and we came
home to lunch and we went back and walked again and we never thought anything about
it in winter, any kind of weather.
Interviewer: It‟s a little different than today, huh?

�4

Mrs. Warner: Every child has to be taken in a car or else on a bus. That‟s a controversy
that‟s going on.
Interviewer: What, were there, you say you were the only Catholic family on Paris
Avenue?
Mrs. Warner: Yes.
Interviewer: Were there portions of the city where Catholics seemed to congregate or…?
Mrs. Warner: No. No.
Interviewer: Dispersed all over then, huh?
Mrs. Warner: Yeah, um hum. This was never much of a Catholic city; really…I mean
population wise. Quite a few Catholics-those that went to Saint Andrew‟s-went to
school and who were acquaintances of ours…they were never close friends because they
didn‟t live in the same neighborhood. A good many of them were…there were quite a
few families down along Sheldon, oh around in that neighborhood where the cathedral
was. But as far as we were concerned it was no particular point made of it one way or the
other. Others went to different churches.
Interviewer: There are quite a few Negroes living down in that area now. Were there
very many Negroes in Grand Rapids at that time?
Mrs. Warner: No, very few…very few.
Interviewer: Do you remember any particularly?
Mrs. Warner: No, none other than those that we knew as waiters. If you went to the
hotel or went to a club or places of that kind, usually the help was colored. And you
knew them and knew them by name and were friendly with them, but there was no large
concentration of colored that I remember.
Interviewer: What clubs, did your family belong to any clubs?
Mrs. Warner: No, there were not very many clubs. There was the one club that was here
on the lake called the O-Wash-Ta-Nong Club which was very nice…oh, it was just a
social club where there were dinners and often times parties, dancing parties and all, and
it went out over the water. It was a lovely place. It burned eventually. But the only
clubs that the Kent Country Club started, oh, I don‟t know how many years ago-how old
the Kent Country Club is but at the time that it was first organized by a group of men
who became interested in golf, it was in what is now… do you know where the Bissell
House is?

�5
Interviewer: um hum.
Mrs. Warner: …on the corner of Plymouth and Wealthy? That was the club house-Kent
Country Club House. And where the hospital is, all that rolling land over there was the
golf course.
Interviewer: When was that moved, do you know?
Mrs. Warner: About fifty years ago. I think it‟s all of that, maybe more. It went out to
where it‟s located now.
Interviewer: Did you go to high school in town?
Mrs. Warner: Yes, by that time I went to the regular high school-not a denominational.
The high school that‟s… there was just one high school. It was the one that‟s on
Fountain Street now.
Interviewer: Was there much interaction between… let‟s say children in your
neighborhood where you lived and children that lived up on-oh…Mr. Judd referred to it
as a Quality Hill, that „s what West-Siders used to refer to.
Mrs. Warner: Yes, no I didn‟t know those young people.
Interviewer: Did you go to college?
Mrs. Warner: No, I went, I went to art school in Washington, the Corcoran Art School at
one point, and then I met Mr. Warner when he came to Grand Rapids and we were
married quite… I was quite young when I was married. You‟d think-we‟d think it‟s
young now, I didn‟t think it was young then. I thought, well, I sometimes realize now…
if I know now as much as I thought I knew then-I‟d really be awfully well informed. I
had all the answers.
Interviewer: How old were you?
Mrs. Warner: Nineteen. I, a good deal like the young people have now… and I was the
person for causes. Violent enthusiasms about causes of various kinds…movements of
one sort or another.
Interviewer: What kind did you get involved in?
Mrs. Warner: Well, I got involved in club life and then I became involved in the suffrage
movement. And that was a very active movement at the time. You see, it had been for
many years back to Susan An…. Susan B. Anthony was an agitator for votes for womenequal suffrage-but it had never been too actively promoted at least to my knowledge.
And all of a sudden during the First World War, women took very…a much more active
part in a thing, affairs out of their home. For instance the Red Cross, you see, which was

�6
very active. You wouldn‟t have any idea of the difference when one has seen the wars
like the First World War and the Second World War and the feeling there was about it,
and then to see this disaffection that there is about the Vietnam War. It‟s amazing. We
were really patriotic… patriots in those times and, as I say, women worked hard and were
given responsibility during the war and then that stirred up this idea that if they could do
that, then they should vote. And the movement became very active, very much of an
issue. And we kept… we organized here in Grand Rapids. There was a group of us who
were so involved in it that we organized very thoroughly for a real city-wide campaign on
the way that the war effort had been done by block chairmen and you‟d have a… you‟d
locate a woman in a certain area, small area who believed in it and you‟d engage her in
activities with her neighbors and her friends and her people that she met with petitions,
signing petitions. And we also opened an office downtown and in… we were given some
space in a store along Division Avenue and we worked every day at it. And we
organized the whole thing in a very business-like way. The result being that we
collected… of course, there were those that were just as violently against it, and used to
engage in real heated arguments over it. And the result was that we collected on these
petitions hundreds of names. And, at that time, there were two newspapers in Grand
Rapids, there was the morning Grand Rapids Herald. And the editor of the Herald was
sympathetic to us and he gave us in one issue a full page space … a spread in the middle
of two full pages to print those names that we had in little fine print all those were as a
piece of publicity that we organized.
Interviewer: What was the… what was the ultimate objective, to get the vote?
Mrs. Warner: To get the vote. You see, the amendment had passed the Congress and it
was a matter, as it always is, of the majority of the states ratifying to make it a law-the
law of the land. And we were agitating to have the Michigan Legislature ratify it. We
besieged our representatives. We didn‟t know enough, we never… I thought about it
since I spoke with you. I thought something about it and I got to thinking about it anyway
with this matter of the vote for eighteen year olds. It had kind of brought the old effort
back to my mind. It never occurred to us to march on Lansing like they do now. We
never…we never organized any marches that I …
Interviewer: Were they mostly just door to door …
Mrs. Warner: Yes.
Interviewer: …canvassing and talking and…
Mrs. Warner: Yes, that sort of person to person. We had a funny thing happen to me in
connection with it that might be amusing to you. We always took the… the county fair
was much more of an affair than it is now. People, large crowds went to it and it was
always in the fall quite an event out at the… what the fairgrounds out at North Park and
we always took a booth to put up our, you know, our display of literature and hand out
our literature and all. And we manned that booth with-women went down and took their
turns being in the booth for… of the day. Any my turn came up to go out early in the

�7
morning and be there most of the day, I can remember. And the night before, I fell
against the door of our automobile and cut my eye-quite a little cut right in here, close to
my eye. It had to have several stitches. Well, it gave me a perfectly beautiful black eye
if you‟ve ever seen one. But nothing daunted, I went out to man the booth… was that…
did that attract attention. The rebel remarks, the jokes that it called for. I think it
probably brought more people, more people stopped at our booth than would have
otherwise. To see the suffragette with a black eye-that was something.
Interviewer: Were men sympathetic to a …
Mrs. Warner: Oh yes, many men were.
Interviewer: Was there opposition to the women‟s vote, also?
Mrs. Warner: Oh, was there opposition? It was fierce opposition. The people were just
as violently against as they were for. Oh, it was, it was quite a hot issue. But the result
was of, I suppose, our effort not only in Grand Rapids but all over the state. Detroit was
a very active group and other places all over the state and the result was that our
legislature was the first one to ratify months before the ratification was finished by the
legislatures.
Interviewer: Michigan was the first state to ratify the amendment, huh?
Mrs. Warner: That was in nineteen twenty.
Interviewer: Where, where did the opposition to the women‟s vote… did it seem to come
from any…?
Mrs. Warner: Oh, it was just prejudice-women belonged in the home. Women should
stay where they belonged, they didn‟t…
Interviewer: How did the majority of the women feel?
Mrs. Warner: Oh, many very intelligent women were against it. They didn‟t feel that
they, it was…it was, it was the whole thing-for and against-was a prejudice type of
thing… emotional kind of prejudice, nothing much… very… at least the arguments
against it were thoroughly emotional because there was really no valid reason why
women shouldn‟t vote as well as men. But there was very strong feeling.
Interviewer: Well, there still seems to be a lot of strong feeling against women being
treated as equals isn‟t there?
Mrs. Warner: Well, this lib business… movement that I think… I don‟t know, it seems to
me that some of their objectives are rather extreme. But as far as equal pay for equal
work, I think that is only fair and I think it ought to be promoted and agitated until it
comes about. Now of course, when you know they go, for instance, all this matter about

�8
putting a woman on the Supreme Bench… well, I don‟t doubt at all that there are plenty
of women who have been… had legal experience and been on Federal Benches and know
the law and the Constitution quite as well as some of these candidates that have been put
up in the past to my knowledge. Pretty weak, and it‟ll be very interesting, very
interesting to see what the President‟s appointments are and how it‟s received in the
Congress. And I doubt very much that he‟ll put up the name of a woman.
Interviewer: You don‟t think he will?
Mrs. Warner: I really don‟t think so, no.
Interviewer: Mrs. Nixon is supposedly agitating in the backrooms of the White House
for it. That‟s what the report says.
Mrs. Warner: Well, I‟ve heard that, too, but I don‟t know. And what do you think the
Congress would do with it?
Interviewer: Oh, I think if the woman was qualified that the Congress would approve her
unless they could dig up some scandals like they did with a….
Mrs Warner: Caswell.
Interviewer: [G. Harrold] Carswell, yeah.
Mrs. Warner: Well, they were not competent men to be on the Supreme Bench. I have
very strong feelings about those things, I guess, because of my husband‟s legal opinions.
I think it should be the very cream of the brains, legal brains of the country in that
position and I think that there‟s been a lot of really bad publicity about the Supreme
Bench in the past few years. Everything, as a matter fact, is picked to pieces and taken
apart these days. Nothing is very sacred, is it?
Interviewer: No, it doesn‟t seem to be. Was it different when you were growing up?
Were there things that were held sacred?
Mrs. Warner: It seems to me there were, yes.
Interviewer: What are some of the things that …
Mrs. Warner: Of course, out of getting the franchise grew the… right away the League
of Women Voters Organization which has become a real political factor.
Interviewer: Were you active in the development of that there in town?
Mrs. Warner: Yes, um hum, I was one of the first presidents of the local chapter. Also
the organizing of the Women‟s City Club. Women got active at that time and took a
hand with things coming out of the effort-war effort. They liked it. They liked working,

�9
strangely enough, and according…against all reports, women liked to work together.
They worked together well. I‟ve never had any quarrels with anyone I worked with in
any of the organizations and I‟ve been in many of them-many organizations, clubs and
groups. There‟s always some that are not as pleasant as others but I don‟t think there‟s
any more quarrels among women than there is among men. Men don‟t always get along
too well that I„ve noticed. They‟re not always peace-keeping people. Don‟t you think
we‟ve talked long enough on this now?
Interviewer: Yeah, there are a couple of other questions I want to ask you but I‟m going
to turn this tape over. It‟s about run out.
Interviewer: You were just saying, you were just talking to me about the Grand Rapids
Foundation and the fact that you‟ve been involved in that.
Mrs. Warner: Yes, yes.
Interviewer: Can you tell me a little about how it was started and, well, what it‟s…what
the purpose of it was in the beginning and so on.
Mrs. Warner: Yes, the Metz Estate was left to be used to found a foundation with the…
income from which was to be spent in the community for charitable purposes. (Oh dear,
there‟s the telephone.) And Mr. Hutchins knew a man in Cincinnati, I think it was, who
had instigated a similar… started a similar foundation and he became interested in it and
organized. The foundation was based on this one, the Quest and it had its directors
appointed by the two federal judges, by the clearing house, by the Old Kent, and the
National- the Grand Rapids National Bank, and by the Association of Commerce and one
other. There were eight directors and it was all voluntary, I mean you were appointed.
You were asked to serve…and served as long as you wanted to or as long as, well… there
were such people as well names that you wouldn‟t even know now. Julius Amberg, who
was David Amberg‟s father, a very prominent lawyer here and several furniture men-men
that were connected with the business world and the appointments had to be accepted and
gradually we got a little more money and it took hold and people became…got to know a
little bit about it and we were left-the foundation was left- more and more money until
our income could be spent more diversified. And we were always looking for a
pioneering of projects. Not any continuous support except through the federated
agencies, those that were in that. And then a certain portion of it was always devoted to
scholarships. So that‟s the way the money was spent. Well, we were suddenly left the
Wylie Estate which was about six million dollars.
Interviewer: Now who was…who was the Wylie?
Mrs. Warner: That was Curt, Curtis Wylie. The Wylie family was a very prominent
family in Grand Rapids and Curtis was the son. I think Mr. Wylie‟s money came from
lumber. As so much of the money… early days in Grand Rapids, the Blodgetts-and
those, that money-that type of money-came from lumbering. And Mr. Wylie left a large
estate. Well, Curtis Wylie was very well named. He was a very "wily" investor. He

�10
was… he had a portfolio that was simply amazing. And he left it all to the Grand Rapids
Foundation.
Interviewer: Didn‟t he have any family?
Mrs. Warner: No, he was never married. He had a sister and she is still living. And, I
believe she plans to leave her portion-her estate-to the foundation and then other… we
had many smaller bequeaths until we had quite a list of …they were always, they could
be designated if you wanted the income spent. There was much, many were desig…
number of designations for instance, at that time for crippled children because there was
no state program for crippled children at that time. Since then it‟s… that is one difficulty
about designating because the need becomes obsolete and then the money spent is tied up
and we had quite a lot of money like that. And at last we went to…they went to court
and got an order releasing quite a little of the income of those designated estates that
had… where the need was gone. So the result is that the income that the bank handles,
the trust company handles the estate the… principal and we, the foundation, simply
spends the income and it‟s now two or three hundred thousand dollars a year, you know,
that are spent in the community.
Interviewer: Who was the Metz family that left the original request to establish the
foundation?
Mrs. Warner: I don‟t know much about the Metz family. The Metz Building, do you
know that there‟s a Metz Building?
Interviewer: It‟s being torn down now.
Mrs. Warner: Yes. Well, they were… I don‟t… I can‟t tell you very much about them. I
don‟t really know.
Interviewer: Were there … now this Wylie, this Curtis Wylie left his fortune to the
Grand Rapids Foundation. Has that been somewhat of a rare phenomenon in this town
(for) people of great wealth leaving their substantial sums to the community for
community betterment?
Mrs. Warner: Yes, it‟s not… It‟s rather rare.
Interviewer: Why is that, do you think?
Mrs. Warner: I don‟t know. Now, for instance, I‟m surprised that there are a number of
people of wealth interested in the art museum and yet I‟ve yet to know of a person who‟s
left any substantial amount of money to it. They‟ll leave small sums or they will buy
pictures or something of that kind, make gifts of that sort but they don‟t…I think it‟s
strange I don‟t know why that is. I‟ve no idea. And, as a matter of fact, I don‟t know any
longer where the money is. It‟s not people that I know and probably not people that you
know that have… businessmen and people, names that wouldn‟t mean anything to me.

�11
I‟m always interested in the organization of the Community Fund because at one time, as
a matter of fact, I was the chairman of it once.
Interviewer: of the…
Mrs. Warner: believe it or not.
Interviewer: Were you the first woman ever appointed to that?
Mrs. Warner: Yes, and the only woman I guess that‟s ever been. And the people that
worked for it, the captains and the whole line up of the people that worked for it aren‟t
names that mean one thing to me anymore. Grand Rapids is quite a diversified city.
Interviewer: Was it always that way?
Mrs. Warner: No, it was furniture, furniture, furniture was where the money was; where
the… that was the big industry and for years it was. Of course there‟s a group of people
in Grand Rapids-the Dutch, the Hollanders-that‟s quite a large proportion of this
community, as you probably know. [Of] Holland extraction-and the churches of-are
many, many Lutheran and Christian Reformed and those churches and those people are
all very thrifty and many of them are rich people. And many of them are public spirited,
for instance, the Hekmans are and I could name others that are very public spirited and
take their part-do their part. But, I really don‟t know why that is.
Interviewer: You mentioned now before a little earlier about the wars. What kind of an
effect did the First World War have on Grand Rapids?
Mrs. Warner: Well, what do you… what do you mean effect?
Interviewer: Well, was the city any different after the war than it was before or was it
pretty much the same.
Mrs Warner: No, it was pretty much the same. I don‟t think the First World War made
as much change probably as the Second did. But the First World War, there was great
feeling about it. There was terrible feeling against Germans. It was really very, very bad.
Anything German, any name German… people they named-they changed names and they
didn‟t play music-German music. And they were awfully prejudiced about the Germans
and then, of course, when it came to the Second World War they were even more so.
Because of the cruelty of… we‟ve never had in Grand Rapids a very large Jewish
population but those who then… there were some quite prominent Jews in Grand Rapids
at one time...
[END OF SIDE 1]
Mrs. Warner: …businessmen, business people, and the feeling was very strong, of
course among them. And, there was always all the drives, all the bond sales and all that

�12
sort of thing, always went over very well. People, people, were really quite… the old
fashioned patriotism which seems to have, well, we haven‟t anything… had anything to
be patriotic about as far as I‟m concerned.
Interviewer: You mentioned that you were one of the organizers of the Women‟s City
Club.
Mrs. Warner: Yes.
Interviewer: When was that club formed and why was it formed?
Mrs. Warner: Well, it was formed by the Altrusa [Institute] group. That‟s a professional
women‟s sort of a fraternity. And they thought that we ought to have a cultural and
social club in Grand Rapids where women could get together and have programsworthwhile programs and all. And so a group of us took on the idea and organized…
went and asked people if they thought they‟d like to belong to such an organization and
we got quite an enthusiastic response. And at that time what is now the building on the
corner of Monroe and Ionia that is the Morton Hotel and the branch of the Kent Bank was
built-a new building. There were some old buildings there and that was torn down and
this present building and the Morton House was very thriving… the hotels in Grand
Rapids were always thriving because the furniture business brought so many buyers here
and the exhibit that took place twice a year, July and January exhibit of furniture always
brought lots of people. So hotel business was good and the Morton House was quite a
busy place and in this new building-very splendid it was, we thought- they gave us, this
group of women that were forming this social club… they gave us the use of the
mezzanine for our club room in order to bring women into the hotel and they had a
special lunch that was called the Women‟s City Club Lunch, special priced lunch and all.
And we used that mezzanine to organize and then people joined just for the initiation fee
and dues. The initiation fee was fifteen dollars and the dues were ten dollars a year.
That‟s what we started on and we accumulated a goodly membership. Then we moved to
a house that was next to the Park Congregational Church, the old Godfrey House which is
now… there‟s a parking lot there. And we took that house and we opened… had a dining
room where we had lunch and ran a regular social club with current events classes and
that sort of thing. And that became too small for us so then two women who-Mrs.
Dudley Waters, the first Mrs. Dudley Waters-who was a magnificent woman and a great
worker and organizer and Mrs. Noyes Avery and a group of us began searching for a
home, a permanent home. And we put out a sixty thousand dollar bond issue. And the
Old Kent Bank took the bonds, they paid six percent and the bonds went very well. It
was sold in no time. And with that capital we bought the present property that the City
Club owns now, if you know where it is on Lafayette and Fulton. We bought that house
and remodeled it into a club house.
Interviewer: Isn‟t that rather unusual for a women‟s organization to float a bond issue?
Mrs. Warner: Yes, quite unusual. Never heard of anything like that.

�13
Mrs. Warner: Never heard of anything like that?
Interviewer: No.
Mrs. Warner: Well, the bonds were sold very promptly. And I remember very well, I was
president of the Women‟s City Club. I was there, unfortunately, during the time during
the depression. And we scraped bottom to get our bond issue. Some of our bonds came
due and it never occurred to us that we didn‟t have to take them out. And we went down,
our treasurer went down to the bank with the funds to take out the bonds and they looked
at her, and they said: “Why you‟re the first person that‟s come in here with any such idea
as that in a long time.” Well, we said that we had to do it, that was what we contracted
for and the people that had the bonds, didn‟t want to give them up at all because six
percent was pretty good. But we retired all our bonds as they came due, burned the
mortgage.
Interviewer: When was the club founded, when was it organized?
Mrs. Warner: The club is now forty-five years old, you can figure that.
Interviewer: Nineteen twenty-six, then?
Mrs. Warner: Yeah.
Interviewer: Well, was Ladies Literary Club a…?
Mrs. Warner: Oh, that was an organization that had been going for a long time. That and
the Saint Cecelia Musical Club were the two clubs that club women belonged to. That
was before the war. That had been, I don‟t know how old the Ladies Literary Club is.
And I don‟t know when that building was, when they built that building either. I
belonged to it at one time but I was never very active in it because I was much more
active in the Women‟s City Club.
Interviewer: How were the two organizations different?
Mrs. Warner: Well, we had, we maintained a dining room. The Literary Club is just an
organization that meets once a week and listens to a speaker.
Interviewer: Oh, I see.
Mrs. Warner: But we have many activities in the Women‟s City Club. We have many
classes of various activities. And always on Thursday a speaker, and then there‟s the
Book Club and there‟s the French group and there‟s the Economic, people that are
women that are interested in that, there‟s a leader for that, and the Bridge Club, bridge
lessons. We‟ve always, we have quite a… and then there‟s the dining room with lunch
every day and dinner. And dinner on Thursday night and special occasions and we‟ve
always been in the black. In fact we have to…we‟re a tax-free organization because of

�14
our cultural and educational activities, and we‟re not profit making. Our dining room-we
always budget the dining room which is our one paying activity. We always budgeted a
deficit for that, deliberately, in making up the year‟s budget. And every…. every
committee has its allotted amount to spend and they spend it and they stay in it. And then
every once in a while, we accumulate. Seidman &amp; Seidman tells us that we‟ve
accumulated too much backlog to stay… if we don‟t look out we‟ll have the tax
collectors after us. So then we do some big project, some big expensive thing. Two
years, two years ago, we bought parking. It is always a problem as it is for anything of
that sort and our parking was entirely inadequate and people complained bitterly about it
and we bought over adjacent to us, across the street from us on Lafayette, we bought two
old houses and took them down and laid out a big parking lot there that we have a gate to
it. You have to have a slug to go in-I mean a slug to come out. You can go in but you
can‟t get out without a slug. And that was an expenditure of some... oh that cost well
over a hundred thousand dollars, that project. But we had… we had to backlog for it.
Another time, we did a complete new kitchen on our house. It was… we‟ve always been
very thrifty.
Interviewer: Well, I think we‟ve covered about everything.
Mrs. Warner: Well, I think we‟ve covered a good many different angles of various
things. I don‟t know that it was interesting at all to anyone but…
Interviewer: Oh, I‟ve always wondered about the Ladies… the Women‟s City Club you
know. Never, never, never been in the place.
Mrs. Warner: No…
Interviewer: Because I‟m a man I, it‟s always kind of a mysterious place.
Mrs. Warner: Oh well, men are always welcome there. There we have lots of men there
on…for Thursday night dinner and we often have what we…travelogues on Thursday
nights. Members who have been on nice trips, give their, you know, show their slides
and talk.
Interviewer: Oh yeah.

�15

INDEX

A

L

Amberg, David · 9
Amberg, Julius · 9
Anthony, Susan B. · 5
Avery, Mrs. Noyes · 12

Ladies Literary Club · 13
Lafayette School · 3
Luce Furniture Company · 1

B

M

Berkey and Gay · 1
Bishop, Annie · 3
Bishop, Colonel Loomis K. Bishop · 3

Metz Building · 10
Metz Estate · 9
Morton Hotel · 12
Morton House · 12

C

N

Carswell, [G. Harrold] · 8
Corcoran Art School · 5

Nixon, Mrs. [Richard] · 8

F

O

First World War · 11

Old Kent Bank · 12
O-Wash-Ta-Nong Club · 4

G

P

Godfrey House · 12
Grand Rapids Foundation · 9, 10
Grand Rapids National Bank · 9

Park Congregational Church · 12

S
H
Hekman · 11

Saint Andrew’s Cathedral · 3
Saint Andrew’s School · 3
Saint Cecelia Musical Club · 13

K

W

Kent Country Club · 4

Waters, Mrs. Dudley · 12
Women’s City Club · 8, 12, 13, 14
Women's City Club · 12
Wylie Estate · 9
Wylie, Curtis · 9, 10

�</text>
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                <text>Mary Shelly was born in Grand Rapids in 1888. She married David Warner in 1908. She became involved in the women's suffrage movement, was a leader in the Woman's City Club and a member of the Washtenaw Club and the Kent Country Club. She was also involved with various Grand Rapids foundations. She died on December 7, 1974.</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Cornelius “Bob” Warners
(00:46:39)
(00:25)
• Born September 15 1919
• Graduated from Davis Tech 1939
• Worked for a printing company in Grand Rapids
(00:54)Drafted
• Went to Battle Creek, Fort Custer for 4 days and on a train to Louisiana
• Assigned to 3rd Armor Division
• Combat Command B-33rd Armored Regiment
• Bob was a T5 when drafted--technician 5th grade which was a corporal’s rank
• Tour was from 1941 to late 1945
(3:20)Fort Custer
• Bob was here for about 4 days
• Came in on a Friday and by Tuesday they were processed and sent on
• Billy Conn and Joe Louis fight was that weekend
• They were given no information except that they were heading to Louisiana. Not even
what branch of the service they were going into
(4:40)Camp Polk, Louisiana-1 year
• They were split up into different companies as they got off the train
• Lived in pup tents, practiced maneuvers, supplied tanks, 25 mile marches, calisthenics
• Bob drove for Colonel Strong
(8:09)Mohave Desert-late 1942
• Colonel Strong lost his car so Bob stopped driving for him
• Bob received his 35 millimeter anti-tank gun
• Two man crew driving a half ton truck
• Didn’t have a lot of ammunition at this time for the 35 mill so they couldn’t shoot it for
practice
• They were training in the Mohave Desert
• It was decided that they didn’t need more troops in Africa so their division went to
France
• His division was the 3rd armored division
• (11:00) His unit was to control the Colorado River and monitor people on the roads
coming into the River. They spent 6 days straight on the river monitoring traffic which
was difficult because of the tides and undertows. You had to swim well and row hard to
be on this assignment.

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While there a young star, Dinah Shore, sang for them. She eventually became a great star
but at this time she was not well known.
General Patton had come to his division and given them a harsh speech
(13:30) Bob was in the desert for approximately 6 months
They loaded up on flat cars all their stuff and the men and headed for Virginia

(13:50 )Virginia
• Their division was put on guard duty in Virginia which took about 10 days to travel back
from the desert
• This was a jumping off point out of the country but the coast was covered with
submarines so they went to Hershey Pennsylvania
(15:45) Hershey, Pennsylvania
• Stayed here about 43-45 hours before heading out to England
(16:00) Warminster, England
• Their division stayed in various towns around Warminster but their company stayed
together in one building
• They maneuvered through the countryside and learned to drive on the opposite side of the
road
• The English troops were not happy to see them. Bob said it was because the American
troops had extra money to take the girls out
• (17:20) Bob was able to get off base and see London, Birmingham, and meet the Queen.
The King and Queen came to a place where the guys were in the parking lot with their
trucks and she stopped and shook hands with the guys. Bob says that had a lot of respect
for her because she wouldn’t hide behind the King, she just came out.
• The soldiers at this point knew they were in training for combat but had no idea what
exactly combat would be like and once subjected to combat they wished they had paid
more attention while they were learning.
• The boys were not prepared for combat once they were involved
• (19:40) June 6th they all gathered around the radio and heard about D Day and they
assumed they would be going back to Omaha. They waterproofed all the vehicles and a
storm hit. They had to take the vehicles off, throw them in the ditch, and wait for the
storm to pass. Then take them back out and waterproof them and reload them on the
ships.
(21:30) Normandy
• The traveled across the channel with exceptional weather. When they landed on the
beach, the mess was cleaned up. They landed far enough in that they could unload the
tanks and went right into action digging foxholes.
• For a few weeks, the service company didn’t have much to do. The guys were well
equipped and all was in working order. Once things were used the service crew was able
to assist in fixing and servicing machinery.
• (24:20) They had no idea how close to the front line they were because it would
consistently change

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•

•

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(25:30) Bob was here when they had a 3000 plane bombing attack against St. Lo and
General McNair was killed by friendly fire when some of the bombs fell off target.
At this point they were forced to use the fields to travel since the roads were well bombed
(26:39) Bob says he remembers one day that they traveled with their tanks 100 miles
which was considered the longest tank battle in history.
Once on the move they were able to be more aggressive
They lost their commander in Belgium, General Rose. He was a well liked commander.
He was always in the front of the forces.
(29:20) The service company didn’t change much because they took few casualties
(30:47) His company had 147 days of continuous actual combat while on duty as their
longest campaign without rest
There was not much time of actual rest. Most of the time was spent in combat and
waiting to enter combat with the longest stretch of time waiting was about 1 ½ weeks.
(33:10) Bob says that the Bulge was the most difficult time for his division during the
war. During this battle the weather was horrible. It was winter and conditions were
harsh. One battalion was cut off from the rest, one was completely killed, and sugar was
put into gas tanks.
They were in Spa Belgium at the time and the entire company was being used to guard
corners in town. This was the one place where he was ordered to deploy his anti-tank
gun, but then a cavalry officer came by and told him to get it out of the road before he got
run over, the gun being too small to do anything to German tanks.
They were there for about 10 days in the Bulge
(36:20) The fear was that somebody would break the line and if done would be
disastrous. They had bombs tied to every tree along the roads and the trees partially cut
so they would fall across the road if needed.
It seems that morale was high during this time and the men were ready for a quick end
and a quick return home

(37:50) The final days of the war
• Bob’s unit was planning on meeting the Russians but it was decided to let the Russians
take over the area
• Once they had the Elbe River they basically sat and waited
• Bob said that the part of Germany they were in was very dirty and unlivable. Even the
government wouldn’t let anyone live like that.
• (39:40) The German people seemed tired and ready for the war to end
• The guys spent much time raiding houses for ammunition and equipment
• Bob found postcards in one house they showed the bones of dead Jews. They are in the
Jewish museum in Detroit.
• (41:15) Bob remembers seeing a lot of the Jewish prisoners wandering around wearing
striped pajamas
• (42:30)The division was broken up according to how many points each had. Bob had to
stay a month by Sensei River before being evacuated. He drove jeeps around while he
was there.
• Bob was officially discharged back in Pennsylvania before VJ Day
• Bob returned to printing once discharge and didn’t take his 20 weeks of pay after the war.

�•
•

He said he was an athlete before joining the military and had never drank or smoked
before. Once in he learned quickly how to do both
He feels he had a contribution to the efforts and would not change them but would not
want to do it again.

�</text>
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                    <text>Warren and Joan Valleau- Interview by Lissa Morgan
June 6, 2018
0:00 LM: Oh. Ok. Now it’s recording. So all right. So this is Lissa Morgan, and I am here
today with Warren, and what’s your last name?
0:09

WV: Valleau

0:10 LM: Valleau. At the Saugatuck Douglas Historical Center in Douglas, Michigan. On
June 7th, or 6th. June 6th, 2018. This oral history is being collected as part of the Stories of
Summer Project, which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for the
Humanities Common Heritage Program. Thank you for taking the time to talk to me today. I am
interested in learning more about your family history and your experiences of summer in the
Saugatuck Douglas area. So, I’m going to ask you if you’ll tell me your full name, and then spell
it, and I already asked this, but anyway, if you’ll just tell me your full name and spell it.
1:00 WV: Do I start? full name is Blake B-L-A-K-E. Valleau, uh, Warren W-A-R-R-E-N.
Valleau. V as in Victor, A-L-L-E-A-U.
1:12
not

LM: Ok. Um, and it says, “Do you use any accents when spelling your name?” Probably

1:18

WV: no

1:19 LM Even though that sounds kind of like a French name [laugh] ok. Would you like to
speak also? Go ahead
1:28

JV: I’m Joan. J-O-A-N. Valleau. V-A-L-L-E-A-U. Warren’s wife

1:32 LM: Ok. Great. So tell me about where you grew up, because I think this says
“childhood family” even though you didn’t really grow up here, but your family has a long
history here. So, if you can tell me about that.
1:47 WV: It starts with, uh, my grandfather on my mother’s side. Hyram Macintosh. He was
superintendent of schools in Allegan, and at that time the longest superintendent, I think still, uh,
was superintendent of schools in Allegan. When he retired, he came to Saugatuck because they
had no retirement funds, uh, in the school system. And, uh, he sold his house in Allegan, moved
to the farm, and, he bought the Dick farm D-I-C-K farm. It was the largest peach farm in the
area. The Dick
2:25

LM: Oh a peach farm

2:25 WV: The Dick farm, got, they built a brick house. Back to the Dick Farm. They built a
brick house right where the Shell Gas Station is today. And that was, a, uh, in those days, quite a
mansion. And uh, they had just completed the house and the peaches got a blight. So that little by
little they had to sell off the hundreds of acres that they had of peaches

�2:54

LM: Oh. Is this the Shell Gas station where? Right over here or

2:57

WV: On 6, on 60th. Near 60th.

3:01

LM: ok. Ok.

3:02

WV: yeah. Across from Burger King

3:04

LM: Yeah. Yeah. OK. Got it

3:04 WV And, actually, there, the yard bushes are still there, the, at least it was. A year or so
ago they had a forsithia (?) and they had different types of plants
3:15

LM: Oh really, yeah

3:17 WV: They’re still up at the house, uh, the Dick was a relative. Uh, of my, of the
Macintoshes. Um, uh
3:30

JV: That, that’s your mother’s side

3:31 WV: That was mother’s side of the family. And they, they uh, had a farm, a full farm, uh,
with apples, peaches, and pears and you name it and chickens and everything. Grapes. They had
the first blueberry, blueberries grown in this area. Uh, and they were number 11, I think it was
number 11 of the Michigan Blueberry association
3:58

LM: Oh really? Yeah

3:59 WV: And they had just a little patch. Just maybe, uh, oh maybe a half acre. And, uh, they
also had a dairy. The Macintoshes had a berry, dairy. And uh, called the Highland Dairy. A very
rare bottles to find. Those are mostly gone. Uh, and then across the road at 63rd was the, the Low
Dairy. Created by my Uncle Russel Valleau. He was one of the oldest. I’m not sure if he was the
oldest or next to the oldest. And, uh, he was my father’s oldest brother, because my father was
the youngest of 14 kids
4:45

LM: Oh my goodness

4:46 WV: [throat clear] so he asked my father to come to the area to be a partner in the dairy
because he, he was injured in World War 2, World War 1. And, uh, he just needed help on the
farm. They were, uh, I kind of prepared to talk about, uh, Mt. Baldhead Hotel, which was my
uncle’s hotel. But we’ll hold that off I guess. I can go too long
5:15: LM: Wow, because you’ve got, I mean, of all of the 14 kids, how many of them lived
around here?

�5:23 WV: Uh, Uncle Russel was the only one. And uh, Aunt Verna, his wife. Uh, Merlin, my
cousin, was then, part of the time. Uh, they lived on the, the, uh, east side of 63rd street. They
owned 100, 140 acres maybe? We had 120 on our side. I say our side, but
5:56

LM: Yeah. But you said you were born in Grand Rapids?

5:59 WV: I was born at yeah. Butterworth Hospital. And the reason why is uh, my, uh, the
reason why we went to Grand Rapids is uh (?) it’s a lot of history, I’m going to try to reduce it
down. Um, anyway, they um, let’s see. My
6:20 JV: But I think you have to say something about your grandfather was the superintendent
of schools about 18, uh, 90’s to about 19, uh
6:32

WV: 10

6:33

JV: Yeah, through 1910

6:35

LM: Ok. So, and then he came in when he retired, so that would have been

6:37

WV: He came in 1910. 1910

6:42

JV: Uh, 19, your mother was born in 1905, and

6:43

WV: Yeah, but he came in 10, 11, 12, about 12

6:48

LM about 1912. He came here and bought a farm

6:54 WV: and the deed we have on the farm is back to the Indians. And we lost the farm
recently, but we have the old deed. Uh, what was unique about the farm, on the Macintosh side
was it was owned by the Tolbridge (?) Johnson Plaque. And, uh, Tolbridge Johnson was
Johnson’s Wax. This will not be found in your history.
7:21

LM: Oh interesting

7:21 WV: But I met the historian of Johnson’s Wax and told, when we had a gift shop form
the foundry, we built the um, foundry where my father always wanted to build a foundry. On the,
on the corner of the property. And we had an old, we had an old furnace there. As a kid I used to
climb over it as a little kid. And he said someday I’m going to, I’m going to get that furnace
going, and we’re going to have one here. My father, uh, my mother, uh, let an old nag. He was
working for with his brother, and he let an old nag go. And I don’t remember her name, uh, that
gave him an excuse to go over and see this little cute filly that was across the road, Jean
Macintosh.
8:10

LM: [laugh]

8:11

WV: And

�8:12

LM: Is that how he used to say it?

8:14 WV: And, and Jean was a painter. She painted with Carl Herman. Carl Herman was a
very close friend of my dad’s, and um, sorry, my grandfather. Because they both spoke fluent
German. So my first indoctrination of it was hearing all these stories of, uh, Carl Herman and my
grandfather. Most of the picture frames that were made for the Oxbow were made in the barn on
63rd. That barn
8:45

LM: Oh wow! You do have a lot of history. Oh my goodness

8:50

WV: Well it’s

8:50

LM: So when did you start coming to Saugatuck as a little kid then from Grand Rapids?

8:54 WV: Uh, we well, we lived on the farm. My grandfather still lived on the farm. My
brother, oldest brother. 12 years older. Mac, though, spent a lot of time there, even though he
went to school in Grand Rapids. He spent the summers down there. And, uh, what happened was
they travelled back and forth, but it was really from Chicago. What happened in 19, what
happened was, my uh, father for, I don’t know, 10, 15 years tried to get my mother to say I do.
9:26

LM: Oh really? It took that long?

9:27 WV: It took a long time. And uh, they were out at the the Fursman’s (?) party out at the
light house when my father proposed to her. Thought maybe she was in the mood. And he said I
do, and he just about fainted. Really. Just about fainted. He said he almost had to sit down.
9:50

LM: Oh. Isn’t that cute?

9:51 WV: Yeah. So they had, uh, actually they had a real speed wagon that he’d take her on
dates in those pretty, those pretty rough it was, but anyway, anyway they, uh, but that was in
1929. That they got married. And they were married out there on the farm, and uh, most of the
local people showed up at the wedding. Wheelen made the flowers. From the Wheelen East, later
had the Wheelen, uh, Nursery. And, uh, for her bouquet. And uh the farm had, the part of the
barn had, what I remember the part of the barn had collapsed a little bit. All the tools were on the
wall and that’s were, that’s were Carl Herman and my grandfather made the picture frames. They
made them because, well they needed them at Oxbow. My mother was going to Oxbow at the
very beginning. Carl Herman came to Saugatuck, this is the real story, Carl Herman came to
Saugatuck. He stayed at Mrs., uh, Mrs., uh, [laugh] Mrs. Simpkin’s house. Which is uh, which is
uh, which is Roy Peterson’s home today
11: 21 LM: Ah yeah
11:21 WV: And she catered to artists, and the, so he came there and he said, oh this would
make a wonderful click. I didn’t know the difference between click and quick

�11: 34 LM: Quick
11:34 WV: And Mrs. Peder told me
11:38 LM: ok [laugh]
11:39 WV: She said “I think you’d better know the definition.” Anyway. She didn’t know
either. But he said, oh he said I want to show my, my, first. I’m sorry. Uh, Carl Herman said I
want to bring my fiancé here. And he did. And uh, that’s how it all started. They, he invited Mr.
Fursman, who was his friend in New York, and they all came, and they said “Yes, it would make
a quick all right. We could start something art here.” Because of the natural beauty in the dunes.
Anyway that, uh, that kind of started the that uh, that side. Uh. Sorry
12:30 LM: So your, your, I mean your parents got married then, but are you one of the younger
children then?
12:34 WV: I’m the youngest
12:34 LM: you’re the youngest
12:35 WV: My brother was 12 years older.
12:38 LM: Ok. Ok.
12:38 WV: but yeah
12:40 LM: Yeah, yeah. Because they got married pretty young. I mean that was 1929, did you
say they got married?
12:44 WV: Yeah. And they married when he was I think 28. And I never really looked at the
dates, I was supposed to write a book but
12:54 LM: You should. Oh my goodness. So then, so then you started your your older brother
spent a lot of time
13:02 WV: With his grandfather to stay with him and help him out and basically
13:05 LM: And that would have been in the 40’s or?
13:10 WV: That was in the, that was in the probably the 30’s.
13:14 LM: 30’s. OK
13:18 WV: uh, let’s see. 30’s and 40’s actually.
13:20 LM: 30’s and 40’s?

�13:22 WV: Yeah. He would, uh, the unusual part of my brother was that he called his mother
and dad Jean and Law. My Dad’s name was Law. And the reason why his oldest brother,
Lawrence, and they couldn’t use that, and they wanted Law, so L-A-W. And, uh, the uh, I’ve got
to get back on track here
13:40 LM: It’s all right. You can kind of meander. I mean it’s so interesting. I mean, the focus
here is supposed to be from the 50’s and 60’s, but the thing is it’s worth it to talk a little bit like
you are because you’re approaching where you, you know, where you come in. In the 50’s and
60’s, and there’s so much. It goes back so far, um
14:09 WV: Well we started, my father, um went to Chicago. During the Depression. Brought,
they had an old truck, farm truck. My father would fill that full of vegetables from 3 or 4 farms.
The Lobenoffer’s farm and several others, the Vulls, and so forth into Chicago. And he knew
how to hawk them
14:32 LM: Yeah, hawking. Yeah. Yeah.
14:34 WV: And he would come back with money, which they didn’t have around here. They
had food, but Chicago had no food
14:40 LM: Right, but not the actual right
14:42 WV: So it worked out very well, and that’s the reason he married my mother and got an I
do is probably that he had a job in Chicago.
14:50 LM: And he was a f—
14:56 WV: And he was a foundry man. Well, he wasn’t then. He went, he had a job when there
were no jobs. Men were just lined up in Chicago. To get in to do anything. And he got it. And
this old German who was a molder which is the highest rank that you can have in foundry men is
molder was the most important. He said, my father kept saying “I’d like to learn how to mold.”
He said, “yeah. You and a million others.” This was our trade. He befriended him, and he said, “
well, if you stay at night, I’ll teach you how to mold.” Well, when he started to mold, he came
home, here, and he said, uh, to his father in law “Macintosh, is there something you’d like me to
cast?” He said, “Well, yes, sir, Law. I’d like you to cast a school bell.” That’s how this school
house became a part of our thing. This was the beginning of the school house. And, uh, so he
brought back a bell and Professor Macintosh had to take his bell back to school cause he was still
involved in 1929. It’s in their history, in Allegan history
16:15 LM: Oh is it? Yeah.
16:18 WV: Yeah, the old school pictures of him and so forth.
16:20 LM: Oh they, yeah, yeah

�16:24 WV: And, uh, um, so, the haunting side, after it kind skips the, the haunting side is every
time I’d go for a permit, I wanted to build a foundry here. We had one in Grand Rapids. Now the
unusual thing a foundry in Grand Rapids, it was the front doors of now the Gerald Ford Museum
16:44 LM: Oh really
16:46 WV: I remember it
16:47 LM: Yeah.
16:48 WV: Where Gerry invited us to the dig. And that’s another whole story, but that’s a
Grand Rapids story. But this was our background is the Henry Ford Museum today. And that
was the oldest foundry in Grand Rapids. Back with the Indians. They persuaded the Indians to, I
mean that’s another history itself. But they, they did persuade the Indians to have a black smith,
so they shop to shoe their own horses.
17:15 LM: In the name of
17:16 WV: The black smith
17:17 LM: In the name of
17:18 WV: The name of the foundry was called Harring. And then it became Harring Foundry.
The reason why it was, you’ve heard of the Atwood Brass in Grand Rapids?
17:28 LM: No
17:29 WV: Well that was an old marine hardware. It still is today. Uh, well that was kind of the
start of my getting about too
17:38 LM: When was the foundry, um, started here? When was that?
17:43 JV: 1971
17:43 WV: 1971
17:44 LM: Oh 71. Ok. So the Grand, so it was in, I mean this kind of work was in the family
for quite a long time then
17:51 WV: Very much so. My father. Yeah.
17:52 LM: In Grand Rapids and then finally in the 70’s here
17:53 WV: Well, in Chicago. And then St. Louis. They went to St. Louis.
17:58 LM: Oh they went to St. Louis too

�17:59 WV: Yeah. Opened a foundry there. And she’s, I remember my mother saying, “Every
day you had to wash the widows! Every day!”
18:07 LM: [laugh] Your memory’s incredible. I mean really. You remember all the names and
everything. I mean that goes back two, that’s like three generations really. Grandparents and,
what were
18:19 WV: Well we’re only born back to Isle Delray (?) and (?) uh, uh, France. We were, we
were the Huguenots that uh, came over here in 1764.
18:40 LM: Oh
18:42 WV: And, uh, we were being persecuted by the Catholic church, and we took our last
stand in Isle Delray and (?), which were like Saugatuck and Douglas. They weren’t really that
large. And it ended up that my cousin became in 1900, cousin I’d guess you’d call him, became a
bishop in the church only a short time. But he became a bishop. They had to, they were
Christian. They were Knights Templar so they had to, they had to give in or be killed, even after,
way after the, well I’m not a good historian to tell you that side. But that’s uh, so anyway, our
family moved to New York, and then we went to Michigan. And Ohio
19:32 LM: Ohio. Yeah
19:34 WV: Ohio Basin area. And, uh, that’s another, that’s another, oh area there
19:39 LM: You should have been a historian I guess then. You have, you have enough
information to write a book
19:43 WV: Well that’s nothing
19:45 LM: I don’t want to, I don’t want to move you. But I would like to talk about, um, you
said you had some information about a hotel. You said your uncle
19:55 WV: Yes. Uh, the reason I brought the blueberries up, and, and see the, my uncle, I’m
going back. My uncle
20:04 LM: That’s all right. We can go all over the place. It doesn’t matter. They’re the ones
that are going to have to make sense of it all [laugh]
20:07 WV: My uncle bought, the how he bought it and so forth I don’t have any history of that
but
20:14 LM: This was your father or mother
20:14 WV: This was my father’s, my, uh, Uncle Russel

�20:18 JV: [cough]
20:20 LM: OK
20:21 WV: Which was the oldest brother, married Verna, uh, I don’t remember her maiden
name. And, uh, her sister was Rea Jackson. And Harry Jackson were the two owners of the hotel.
20:34 LM: OK
20:34 WV: Mt. Baldhead hotel
20:35 LM: Ok.
20:36 WV: This was in the 30’s, 40’s, and 50’s
20:40 LM: Ok
20:41 WV: Then it, uh, either burned or, not sure what happened. To the hotel, but anyway the
Mt. Baldhead Hotel. The thing I remember about it was, the thing I really remember was Uncle
uh, Uncle, uh, Harry Jackson. Uncle Harry, uh, having to pardon himself from my dad. My dad
brought milk over. He wasn’t part of the dairy, but he helped, he helped his brother at times,
when he was in town, he took some milk over because they had to take fresh milk over to, to the
hotel, and sometimes the chickens that they, you know, if they needed some chickens they took
some chickens grew out on 63rd. Um, so they uh, part of their income, my uncle Russel’s income
was, of course, all farming, but it was a hotel
21:41 LM: OK
21:41 WV: Because his brother in law owned the hotel. He had the contract for the milk. He
had the, for the cottage cheese, whatever they made
21:50 LM: Whatever they made, yeah. They would furnish the unit
21:52 WV: Yeah, I remember helping my uncle in the dairy which was just to the side of the
house. It wouldn’t have made health codes today
21:59 LM: [laugh] That was part of the farm you mean?
22:00 WV: [laugh] That was part of the farm
22:03 LM: Part of the farm
22:04 WV: Yeah. He had dairy cows

�22:04 LM: What was, was there a road then? What was that?
22:06 WV: 130, uh, 160, uh, 63rd and 132nd street. Right on the corner
22:10 LM: Oh, and that’s kind of where the high way is now, or no?
22:18 WV: Uh, it’s right where they’re, they’re building kitty corner across right now uh, the
big, the big mall. Uh, that whole area, they uh, right now it’s a horse ranch the front part of it. It
was, uh, divided out, uh, lotted out, and that’s one of the southern gulleys. That they have. They
have a gulley that goes feeds Silver Lake. And uh,
22:45 JV: Yeah, and the property was also part of the Ravine
22:48 WV: It was called the Ravines, yeah
22:49 LM: Ravine?
22:50 JV: mmhm
22:50 WV: Uh, yeah.
22:51 JV: The, the Ravine Golf Course? The Valleu, the Valleau, yeah.
22:54 WV: I cut and sold that
22:56 LM: So that’s that whole, that would be like all west of Silver, east I mean, east. Yeah
the high way
22:56 garbled interrupting each other
23:04 WV: Because my cousin Merlin started to buy up extra land and extra land, more land
for his cattle, and that’s a whole story in itself. What he did, uh, cattle, uh,
23:15 JV: Yeah. What we’re talking about also with the blueberries and what not, and they
want to go back to the 50’s. You were involved in, uh, the middle part of the 50’s, end of 50’s,
57 or so. You were 12, 13 years old, and your parents had the blueberry patch. Uh, 7 or 8 acres
of blueberries, and it was Warren’s responsibility to find the pickers, get the pickers to the patch,
pick the blueberries all summer long, and take the blueberries to the co-op of their association at
the age of 12 or 13. And it was his responsibility, and his parents were in Grand Rapids while he
was doing this at that age
24:04 LM: Oh, you stayed at your grandparents at that time?
24:05 WV: I stayed at, well actually, my grandfather died a week or two after I was born. He
just wanted to see me born and he died of fright

�24:15 LM: [laugh]
24:15 JV: [laugh]
24:15 WV: [laugh] and he was staying up in Grand Rapids. Uh, my parents bought a stone
house in Grand Rapids up on Front Street, Front- 4th Street, uh, and we fought the city to save,
we started the Historic District, uh, up on the hill, uh, by fighting the city because they wanted to
tear all the history
24:38 LM: All down, yeah.
24:40 WV: Down, all these stone houses made from the river quarry. They were all Victorian,
uh, not Victorian, below, before it. They were all Greek Revival houses, great big pillars on one
of the houses we tore down. And we hauled it to the farm. Uh, that was a time, really the city of
Grand Rapids didn’t care about history of course
25:05 LM: Any, any, uh, of that, that started, yeah, I remember when I was a kid and they
started, I mean I left around then when they started tearing everything down and then, my mother
was six. My parents had an antique shop for many years
25:18 WV: Where abouts?
24:19 LM: And my grandparents, in Hastings, and my grandparents, my father’s parents, had
an antique shop for 45 years. So, I mean there was a lot of respect and appreciation for that. And
especially architecture. That’s why, that’s one of the reasons I think that I have an interest in the
historical society here, you know, the importance of it. What I am interested in, and this just kind
of comes from my understanding, but what was it like to have this kind of contrast between the
farm, kind of the farm living, and then the art
25:53 WV: And the city?
25:54 LM: Yeah, and then the town, the small town of Saugatuck, and the art, you know,
Oxbow and all, how did that all? What was that, what was that like?
26:01 WV: Well, my mother was one of the first students at Oxbow, and she was with, uh, oh,
some of the, I don’t know if I can memorize the girls, some of the paintings, I can’t
26:13 LM: Ah, ah yes.
26:14 WV: Uh, they were all painting together. You had the Shippens (?), or the uh, uh,
Tomminsons (?), Dave Tomminson was the one that decide the golf, Arnold Palmer Golf course
out there. And he accepted it.
26:30 LM: He was an artist at Oxbow then or was a teacher?

�26:34 WV: He was uh, he was uh, no. Dave Tomminson was, uh, a, his father was an architect
in Chicago
26:44 LM: OK
26:44 WV: And, uh,
26:45 JV: Dorothy. His wife. Aunt Dorothy
26:48 WV: Yeah. Aunt Dorothy. They, they, uh, they were asked to design buildings in Pearl
Harbor. And they were there at the attack on Pearl Harbor, just, uh, the water was too oily to go
swimming that morning, and uh, they had taken these ships out that, I’m getting off track really,
but uh, they took these ships out that weren’t running at all. It was all set up, and they just pulled
those out so they could blow those up
27:16 LM: blow, oh
27:17 WV: and maybe not get the other ones too bad.
27:20 LM: Yeah
27:20 WV: But, um, so they when, as they pulled these old ships out, and they were waiting
for the Japanese. That’s what, you know. So that was quite a story and they still, um. My cousins
on that side of the family which were the Macintyre’s side, they still go to the uh, I don’t know if
they go anymore, but they used to go to the Pearl Harbor, um, group uh,
27:47 LM: Oh, the like memorial, yeah
27:48 WV: Dave was one of them, his sister Mary, now Mary was an artist here in Saugatuck.
Mary, uh, Tomminson, she’s uh in Grand, in Holland by the name of Mary Latell (?). And she’s
gotta be in her in 90’s, but she has pictures galore, uh, I mean of Saugatuck. Unbelievable. My
uncle, my uncle uh, uh, Tomminson had the first movie cameras. We have uh, movies, or they
do. They have movies of out at the, at the pier in Saugatuck and in Saugatuck, all movies, no one
could afford a movie camera, but he could because he was an architect.
28:37 LM: When was were those, when was that?
28:40 WV: It was during the, what’s the house I worked on in Grand Rapids?
28:44 JV: Frank Lloyd
28:45 WV: Frank Lloyd Wright, yeah. He worked with Frank Lloyd Wright, not together
exactly, but they were personal friends from Chicago. And so, they needed a movie camera. And
so they had a lot of movies. Even my grandfather, back, and I saw a copy of my grandfather.
And they weren’t used to movies. They were used to sitting upright, strong

�29:10 LM: Oh yeah. Right, very stern and all that
29:14 WV: [laugh] yeah. My dad threw a, in the movie threw a dog into my grandfather’s arms
so he’d move.
29:20 LM: [laugh] he moved!
29:22 WV: Anyway, so, uh
29:25 LM: So when did you come live here, like, um permanently?
29:29 WV: I, I started to well, permanently was uh, well, let’s see. Um. I’m not even sure of the
year
29:40 JV: It was uh, in 1971. You started building the foundry, uh, on 63rd Street, and uh, also
having the foundry, uh, in Grand Rapids running with
29:52 LM: So before then you would just come back and forth? Because you had a lot of
relatives here
29:57 WV: We came back and forth. I lived at, mostly out in Ada with my parents because we
lost the house with the demolition
30: 02 LM: In Ada? Ok.
30:04 WV: We moved out to Ada and, uh, so I got tired of driving back and forth til 12 o’clock
at night. My mother would have a meal for me. And my father was a little disturbed about that
30:15 LM: Yeah. Ok.
30:18 WV: [laugh] Anyway. Uh, good way to ween a son. Anyway, building the foundry, um,
was another whole, whole world because you don’t build a foundry in a town like this
30:30 LM: Yeah
30:31 WV: And I was told I was going to fail. And I bought Atwood Brass Foundry in Grand
Rapids. That’s a big Foundry. And moved the equipment to here. The one person to help me in
Saugatuck, the one person was a man who changed Saugatuck from being a total resort town
controlling the people, my uncle controlled them. Uncle Harry controlled the people to make
sure there was no industry in Saugatuck. They could hire the people, they, I could tell you all
about that
31:08 LM: No, that’s interesting, I mean yeah
31:08 WV: But that’s what he did. He made sure that they all they had a, a quick, a click, that’s
the word I’m thinking of. A click. That the people wouldn’t have permanent jobs around here.

�You would have to depend on the tourist traffic. So they could get all the people they’d need to
run a hotel.
31:28 LM: So, when your grandparents were here, then, um, and they had the farm, then were
the populations kind of, or, er, kind of divided by where the farmers did their work and the, like
you’re saying, the tourists and the and the, the whole town or?
31:45 WV: Yeah. What kept them together was the dairies. We have a lot of dairies in
Saugatuck that were old dairies. And you’d lose your job if you brought some milk in and it
didn’t last a day and if it didn’t last two days
31:58 LM: Yeah.
31:59 WV: You would have a competitor in there getting your contract.
32:03 LM: How many dairies were there?
32:03 WV: Oh, there was a lot of dairies
32:06 LM: Yeah
32:06 WV: And, uh, they all have their milk routes. Uh, Saugatuck Dairy, uh, handled most of
the hotel. That was their big part, when the hotel closed down, they, my uncle sold the, the cattle
farm, because they didn’t have that vine that they had to run the dairy
32:28 LM: Yeah, yeah,
32:29 WV: Yeah.
32:30 LM: And they were all around. Like all around the area?
32:32 WV: Oh, all around here. Yes. I wish I could name them all off, but
32:38 JV: Yeah, the um, the, um, let’s see, now the, the hotel was on the shore where ship and
shore is.
32:48 LM: Right
32:49 JV: And then across the street, then they lived in that
32:52 WV: Oh, I would like to tell you about that, is Mt. Baldhead. You’re right. Ok. What Mt.
Baldhead, um, Hotel, Aunt Rea and Uncle Harry lived across the street
33:08 JV: In the house, the brick house that’s across the street. The house across the street
that’s called the Ivy Inn

�33:19 WV: Ivy Inn yes
33:19 LM: Oh the Ivy Inn! Yeah, yeah. I stayed there. That is when I used to come alone, yeah,
that was
33:20 JV: That was their, that was their home and while they they managed
33:27 WV: Threw many a party
33:28 LM: Managed the
33:29 JV: Managed the hotel
33:32 WV: Yeah, and as kids, uh the hotel was still going, and uh, I hardly ever saw Uncle
Harry, but Aunt Rea was, uh, seemed always around. He was busy, busy doing this or that to run
this hotel. But they had a phone from the, uh, their house, the ho- to the hotel. And as a kid, my
cousins and I all tried to get that phone running. I bought these big batteries that were these big
D, C batteries, and we put one in one and one in the other, and we were cranking this all, and it
wouldn’t work
34:10 LM: cranking [laugh]
34:13 WV: And we’d yell across the street trying to get this phone running. We found the line
was down. We couldn’t get the line up, so those big batteries. The cost of those
34:27 LM: Yeah. Did you spend any time at the hotel, or just going to visit your, yeah, yeah
34:28 WV: Never at the hotel, but I’d go there with my dad to bring milk over, and he was,
he’d talk with my uncle. And I remember my uncle Harry having a big wad of ca- cash. This big.
It was like three inches in diameter. I’d never seen anybody with a round ball of money. And, uh,
my father, uh, I uh, let’s see, so my uncle Harry said “How much is the milk and the eggs from,
from Russel?” And he’d bring out this big ball of money and count out the money and give him
cash and. That was the day of the cash. That was the day that nothing was recorded. You’d pay
your bills in cash and never kept track of them, and, uh, the other thing that I remember is, this
was almost the same time, but it was over and over again, but was when Harry would go to the
cars because someone he’d recognize the people coming. They didn’t come for the day. They
came in for the week or two weeks or the summer
35:34 LM: Or the summer and stay at the hotel that long?
35:34 WV: Stay at the hotel. Yes. Yes. There were people with a lot of money from, from, uh
down in uh, Missouri, and, uh, Wisconsin, and, uh, mainly Chicago.
35:48 LM: How did they get up here? Because I know I read some um, information about how
they used to come by boat and yeah

�35:54 WV: Lake steamer. Little lake steamer
35:57 LM: My grand uncle. My dad’s uncle, um, worked as the captain of one of those
steamers that used to come this way. Yeah, yeah. He lived in Oak Park.
36:08 WV: He did
36:09 LM: Yeah, um, Illinois
36:10 WV: That’s Joan’s territory
36:11 LM: Oh is it?
36:13 JV: mm hm. Yeah. Yeah
36:14 WV: uh, Uncle Harry had three friends, uh, real close friends. One was Mor- Mork
Echton. Mork Echton.
36:22 LM: OK
36:24 WV: I think he was the captain of the Alabama. I’m not sure, but I think he was, uh, the
ex captain.
36:32 LM: And that came from where?
36:34 WV: That was from here
36:36 LM: Ok.
36:37 WV: There were three ships. We had three ships here that, uh, lake steamers. And the
Alabama was one, and they were parked in
36:48 LM: They were moored here, uh
36:49 WV: Yeah. Moored in Holland
36:51 LM: Oh, ok
36:52 WV: Moored up in Holland, uh, that I remember. They weren’t moored here, but, uh,
there. That’s what I remember. And, uh, Mork Echton would tell me old stories. That was little
whirl, but uh, um, the three of them, Uncle Harry and uh, a man by the name of Founders. It took
me, this morning I woke up, and I remembered his name
37:18 LM: Oh did you?
37:19 WV: Flanders! Flanders. F-L-A-N-D-E-R-S. Uh, the three of them were his close friends,

�so Uncle Harry had connections on how they could rent a garden out on 63rd. And so they got my
father to rent them land. My father said, “Look if you want some farm space, I’ll give it to you.”
“No, no. These guys can afford it, and they want to pay their way.” So I saw Uncle Harry very
little then. But they used the goods from the farm, from their farm, from their gardening for the
hotel and for themselves. And, uh, uh, Mork Etchton and, played a joke on me. I’ll never forget
that joke. It was, he trained me. He uh, we were racing on who could have the biggest
watermelon. Now I had the biggest watermelon. I babied that watermelon, and they, they knew it
too. They said, I’ll tell you what. Mork said “I’ll tell you what.” A lot of people knew Mork. I
mean he was, he was quite a guy
38:32 LM: So he was the, you said he was the
38:35 WV: Yeah, he was an old, he was an old captain
38:39 LM: Captain. Did he live in town?
38:40 WV: Yes
38:41 LM: And where did, did they go? Did they go up and down Lake Michigan then? On the
steamer?
38:46 WV: Well, that was before my time, because I think the boat was mostly moored in
Holland. They weren’t running, so that was before my time. I just heard stories. Oh yeah. He was
38:47 LM: Ok. Ok. All right. So he was an older guy? He was an older guy.
38:46 WV: To me, real old right. My age. Anyway they, did the gardening, and I was paid, uh,
by bribes. They’d bring me a candy bar, and I’d water their garden. But I watered my
watermelon, and it got so big they Mork said “I’ll tell you what. I will give you a quarter because
I think your watermelon probably is ready. I’ll pay you a quarter if you cut a little square in
there, a little pyramid, and, uh, see if it’s ripe.” And I said “Well, that will make it rot.”
Whatever. And he says “Oh, no, no, no, no, no.” He says “We’ll put it back together. If it isn’t
ripe we’ll put it back together. It’ll get ripe that way even quicker.” And I watched my
watermelon shrivel, and it came down and shrunk, I lost my watermelon
39:50 LM: Oh, no. He was totally wrong.
39:53 WV: He was wrong. But he gave me a quarter. Two bits. Two bits
39:56 LM: Which was good
39:57 WV: That was a lot of money. Two bits
39:58 LM: Yeah. Did people do that often where they would, um, rent, um parts of your
grandfather’s farm?

�40:05 WV: Not, no, not really
40:06 LM: I mean that’s kind of. Yeah
40:07 WV: That’s kind of an unusual situation. And that’s where Har, Uncle Harry had
connections, and Uncle Harry of Mount Baldhead, he would not only, uh, he would take people
hunting, fishing, uh, he had a, uh,
40:24 LM: It was part of the business, like that was part of the hotel
40:25 WV: That was part of the business yeah. And he’d take, uh, he’d take them hunting out at
the snake pit which.
40:32 LM: Where’s the snake pit?
40:35 WV: Now the snake pit was, and why it got its name, was up on Silver Lake, on the other
side. You’d have to go beyond Old Allegan Road, and then go up through the woods on the other
side, and uh, my cousin bought the snake pit. And he hated that name. He bought the bought the
build a home that was, uh, Dave Tomminson
40:56 LM: Was that Harry’s son you mean? Or no, no
40:59 WV: Dave Tomminson. Uh,
41:02 LM: Oh. Ok.
41:03 WV: He ended up buying it and putting a beautiful home in there. Anyway they, uh, uh,
that was my experience with Mork, Mork Etcheson and Mr. Flaunders. Flaunders [laugh]
41:15 LM: I have a question about when I interviewed my sister and she was here in the 60’s
[cough] in the mid 60’s. Just for a couple of summers. And one of the questions in here is
[cough] also, did you, when you were in Saugatuck, did you spend much time in Douglas, or did
you, my sister said “I don’t even remember Douglas at all.” Well, I mean, is that, yeah, yeah
41:38 WV That is a good question. And, uh, they have the best harbor
41:43 LM: Best harbor
41:43 WV: Hardware.
41:44 LM: Douglas does
41:45 WV: Douglas. Douglas did have the best hardware, downtown
41:48 LM: Oh, the harbor (?)! Oh I thought you said hardware

�41:53 WV: Best hard ware (?) . Hard ware.
41:58 LM: Oh. Ok. Well where was it
41:59 WV: It’s right where a couple galleries are, across the street from the police station. Is
that? Yeah. Right across the street from the police station.
42:10 LM: Oh right over! Yeah! Right up here. Yeah! Where the, right where are we
42:12 WV: Yeah. It was right through here. Yeah. It’s on that side of the police station. And
that was all the hard ware. They had two or three buildings in there.
42:22 LM: Oh really? It was a big hardware store.
42:23 WV: It was a big hardware. And he carried a lot of stuff, so we came over here all the
time.
42:26 LM: Oh that’s interesting.
42:27 WV: For hardware
42:28 LM: But not for anything else really. Not really?
42:30 WV: Not really for, no, not really. And my mother kept saying, she was a futurist. She
said, “You know, Saugatuck thinks they’re so hot. They are, but the sleeping giant is Douglas.”
42:44 LM: Douglas
42:46 WV: She says, “You wait and see what happens in the future of Douglas.” She said the
same thing in Grand Rapids.
42:52 LM: That’s interesting.
42:52 WV: She said, uh, “They don’t appreciate the water front. They just think it’s a sewer
running through it. And you watch. If they’re intelligent, they will beautify that river and”—
43:06 LM: When did she say that? Long time ago.
43: 07 WV: Oh gosh. Back, I don’t know. 50’s
43:08 LM: 50’s.
43:10 WV: Yeah. Now, the hotel, going back to the hotel, that was, Aunt Rea had wonderful
parties after Harry died especially. I don’t remember Uncle Harry too much at the parties. I think
the parties were afterward. Maybe with the family. And---

�43:27 LM: Maybe she was a party girl.
43:30 WV: She was, yeah, Aunt Verna, her sister, lived on the farm with Uncle Russel. Aunt
Verna was very homely she felt, and she was not pretty like Aunt Rea. Aunt Rea was a beautiful
woman, and Aunt Rhea had money, and uh, and she had servants because the hotel would hire
lots of servants, and when they needed help over at the house, they might do in the basement
some laundry. Especially laundry, and uh, uh, [laugh] just brought up Uncle Harry.
44:03 LM: I’m curious, I’m curious about the servants. Where did people come from that
worked in Saugatuck in the summers?
44:10 WV: Yeah, right here, just around, yeah
44:10 LM: They came from just around?
44:14 WV: The farms and so forth, there was a good job
44:14 LM: Farms and
44:16 WV: Yeah, my, like my uncle’s, you know, a lot of his farm when they butchered
chickens and eggs and so forth, the hotel had the restaurant going. And in our barn, years later,
they upgraded their refrigerator. They had an old ice box that was from here to here. That’s how
big it was. It was a good 10 to 15-foot-long ice box. And then it was converted to a motor
coolant, so it could keep cool. We took that, we put that in our barn for when we had blueberries.
And, uh, the, where my, where the Macintoshes came in, they had a sale for a few little blue
berries at the hotel. That was a specialty, in season.
45:05 LM: Oh, really, yeah. I was going to ask you about that, yeah.
45:08 WV: Now my father decided to grow blueberries. We had the foundry in Grand Rapids
where the Ford Museum was. He decided to get, uh, 20, 30 acres of blueberries in Saugatuck so
he could retire and have the blueberries. Well, him my brother went in together. My father was
90% of it. And, uh,
45:32 LM: Was this the older brother you were talking about before?
45:34 WV: This was my older brother Max. And they went in and planted uh, blueberries, and
we had 10 or 15 acres already plus 20 more acres to plant, and, uh, the, uh, neither one could
work in the blueberries, so I had to. And I loved it. My mother would come down during the
week. Some of the weeks she could. And we had apartments up in Grand Rapids. She had to take
care of and so forth. And, uh,
46:05 LM: So where were you living then? Were you living on the farm then, when you did
that?
46:10 WV: No, well, I personally lived on the farm. I was stuck there at about 10 years old

�46:14 LM: 10 years old, yeah
46:14 WV: Yeah. For the most part of the summer, well, my uncle was up there with. But you
know, they wouldn’t allow that in law today. They certainly would not allow a child to be alone
[laugh]
46:20 LM: So
46:25 WV: There’s no reason for a child not to be alone if they’re responsible
46:25 LM: Mmhm, yeah, so you, yeah. So you stayed there with your uncle? Or sometimes you
were alone?
46:34 WV: No, I stayed in the farm house
46:36 LM: Oh did you
46:38 WV: The Macintosh house, and times I would go up and stay with them and have dinner.
And they had bedrooms on the upper floor for the kids and they had already gone off and uh,
46:48 LM: And your other grandparents right? Did you say?
46:50 WV: They were across the way, right. The Macintosh
46:50 LM: Were they still alive then, your grandparents?
46:54 WV: Uh, no. They were, they were gone in 1964, my uncle came to my high school
graduation at Union High School in Grand Rapids. And he died about 2, 3 months later. So it
must have been pretty, because we have pictures of them in my mother’s rose garden in Grand
Rapids. Uh, they, uh, he was, he was a fascinating guy. He was shot in the leg. He couldn’t use
one of the legs, he
47:28 LM: And this was World War ?
47:28 WV: one
47:30 LM: One
47:30 WV: Yeah.
47:31 LM: That was your uncle
47:32 WV: That was. He went into the farm because that’s a way he could
47:34 LM: Right, because he could

�47:37 WV: They were all taught, they were all teachers. Um, Aunt Verna was a teacher. Uncle
Russel was a teacher. They were all teachers, but, uh, I mean, that’s what they did. They all were
teachers almost. Except the last 3 or 4 that couldn’t go to college.
47:50 LM: Where were they educated? Where did they go to school? What universities?
Around, like Kendell or Western, Michigan State?
47:55 WV: Um, most of the went to Michigan agriculture. And my grandfather had a problem,
Grandfather Valleau had a problem with that because of financing all these kids. So what he did
was he bought the farm.
48:07 LM: There were 14. That was the one that had 14.
48:09 WV: Yeah. Well they, yeah. Even generations back they did. Uh, they bought the farm
adjoining the college building. So the fence between the old college brick building and the farm
was theirs. They bought it so they could, they could, um, uh, um, it was cheaper than having
them stay in area. They could, they could take all their kids and push them into the college.
48:42 LM: You’re talking about the farm, uh, which university? You said the agriculture
48:44 WV: That was, that was, uh Michigan State
48:47 LM: Michigan State. Oh, so you had farms all over the place.
48:52 WV: Well, oh, yeah. They did, yeah. He also had religion, uh, uh, he, uh, he’s on the
history. Actually. He’s on the computer in the history, uh, about the following he had. Uh, he
made two Jesus Christ movies. This was, what?
49:10 JV: in Hollywood
49:11 WV: In Hollywood, right.
49:12 LM: He did?
49:12 WV: And he brought back a burlap sack full of money, and he brought it. How he got the
movies was he, mor, this is another whole story this
49:22 LM: This was your dad, your
49:22 WV: This was my grandfather.
49:24 LM: This was your grandfather on your father’s side
49:24 WV: This was my grandfather on my father’s side. Yeah, he was a, uh, have heard, um,
Argus, Argus Camera. Do you ever remember Argus?

�49:34 LM :No
49:34 WV: That was back in the 50’s
49:36 LM: OK.
49:36 WV: And the reason Argus really got a hold of the market like Kodak did after, Argus
invented something, and he first though took two pictures. And those were, uh 3 pictures, uh, of
the World War two, I guess. World War one, and then he had taken, he had taken a picture of my
grandfather holding a picture frame. And that was the staff of Jesus. My father, grandfather
looked like, he looked like the pictures of Jesus. And then, uh, then it was picked up, and it was
considered the top photograph, and there was a, I think there was a plain. He took a picture of
that or something. Uh, anyway there’s a museum up north on him, uh, I understand. I’ve never
gone. It’s kind of crazy, but one time it got into the Grand Rapids Press, and they talked about
my grandfather in the Grand Rapids Press. And they got it all wrong. They said he was a hippie.
And uh
50:44 LM: [laugh] he wasn’t
50:44 WV: And they said he didn’t believe in bathing. Well, he bathed all the time. He believed
in nudity. Yes. Up to a certain extent. He wore underwear. So they retracted it because it wasn’t
true at all. And they were just, well, the editor said, “Well, I was trying to make it a little bit
more flairy.” But he had a following of people when he came back from Hollywood. He didn’t
want the money. His family was very upset about that. Uh, my father wasn’t, but the rest of the
family were very upset that they weren’t getting this, any of this money. And he was giving it
away to Argus. He put all this money on Argus’ table. And he said uh, I’m not even sure if the
guy’s name was Argus, but it’s Argus camera he owned. Anyway he said, “no, no, no, no. You
earned that. The photograph I earned. And I have a reputation for that photograph.” And it ended
up that, uh, he went out into the street and started handing it to people He thought
51:53 LM: Really!
51:52 WV: So he gave all the money away
51:53 LM: He gave all the money away?
51:55 WV: And it was quite a bit it was
51:55 LM: Was that here? Or is it in Grand Rapids or here?
51:58 WV: It was probably; you know I really don’t know where it was.
52:02 LM: Did your dad spend a lot of time here, or was he mostly in Saugatuck or both
52:10 WV: uh, my father, uh---

�52:10 LM: Sorry, because there’s so many people in your family that I’m getting them
confused
52:13 WV: [laugh] uh, I, well we moved to Grand Rapids
52:15 LM: Yeah.
52:16 WV: In the move he worked for a foundry there. Haring Brass foundry
52:20 LM: Oh. Ok.
52:21 WV: And Haring was the old blacksmith, the name of the black smith foundry before
that. But it was called Haring because, well I guess too much detail. Uh, Atwood Haring were
brother-in-law’s.
52:37 LM: Yeah, so more, it was more like from what I’m understanding, it was more like a
couple. Your uncle and your aunt that lived around here
52:45 WV: Here. Yes. My uncle and aunt lived here, and they lived after my grandparents were
gone. Cause my grandmother died way before that. She was a woman’s liberty.
52:59 LM: Oh, was she?
53:01 WV: Libert—oh she was famous right
53:02 LM: Oh for suffrage. Suffrage woman.
53:05 WV: Oh, she had letters even presidential letters, all
53:09 LM: Who was this, your mother
53:10 WV: My, no, my uh
53:11 JV: Mother’s mother
53:12 WV: my grandmother
53:15 JV: your mother’s mother
53:16 WV: Macintosh. Yeah
53:17 LM: Oh, oh yeah, that’s on your mother. Yeah the mother side
53:20 WV: Yeah. She was very into that, and uh, they had lost two of their daughters in
Allegan from diphtheria and something else.

�53:28 LM: Oh,
53:29 JV: Meningitis I think
53:30 WV: And meningitis.
53:31 JV Yeah, infection
53:33 WV: And my mother was the youngest of the three. And so my mother had problems too.
She couldn’t go to school because of her irregular heart beat
53:45 phone rings in background
53:46 LM: Oh, sorry. I’ll just turn this off
53:47 sounds of jostling.
53:55 LM: yeah, um
53:57 WV: So she was home taught.
53:58 LM: So really, so your mother the, your mother side they were always around here then
54:04 WV: Yeah, and so were the Valleaus. They were here way back
54:07 LM: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Tell me more about, I’m curious. I haven’t been following this at
all, but I don’t think that matters. We’re certainly, we’re certainly talking about interesting stuff
so, it’s fine. But you, you said it was your mother that went to Oxbow, right?
54:25 WV: Yes. About 1915
54:26 LM: So how did
54:29 WV:16. She was a child prodigy
54:30 LM: Really?
54:31 WV: Yeah. That’s
54:34 LM: Do you have a lot of her paintings and
54:35 WV: Yes.
54:38 LM: Do you?
54:38 WV: yeah

�54:39 LM: were there many women at the Oxbow then or not? Was that very rare?
54:40 WV: There were, um, I’m trying to think. Some of them
54:44 LM: When was she born? When was she born? Your mom?
54:45 JV: 1905
54:45 WV: She was born in 1905
54:47 LM: 1905
54:47 WV: mmhm. So what happened was, uh, she because of Fursman, and Fursman never
complimented anyone in art. This wasn’t a complimenter. And she said I got one of the first
compliments I ever heard him give anyone for her painting. Uh, Carl Herman said “I want to
learn your method. You have a unique way” and she did
55:12 LM: And she, she never went to any institute or anything. She was self, kind of selftaught or,
55:15 WV: She was self-taught, yes. It came to here. And one of the things that probably, she
gave up her art while Carl kept going, and his wife, his wife finished up a lot of the paintings.
55:30 JV: Christine
55:31 WV: Christina, yeah. So, some of the paintings are, uh, and she wasn’t bad. She was
pretty good. But you can tell, I couldn’t, but my mother could tell, where she was going to, any
way. She, uh
55:48 LM: Did your mom stay involved in Oxbow at all even though, I mean she was having
kids. How many, how many are there are there of your family?
55:52 WV: She left the, she didn’t for a while, well Oxbow died too a little bit. It didn’t totally
die, but it went way down. It got, uh, uh, a bad reputation for
56:08 LM: When would that have been, like when
56:09 WV: 50’s, 60’s. Was it 60’s? 70’s? I don’t remember. Uh. Joan’s side, she has another
whole story. Her family owned property, uh, the, why don’t you tell it
56:26 JV: Uh, just a lot of, uh, the information that I have is that there was a tent city from, uh,
Mount Baldie to, uh,
56:40 WV: Oxbow

�56:41 JV: Oxbow. And they were involved in the tent city there.
56:45 LM: So like religious, the religious
56:46 WV: no
56:47 JV: just slabs, slabs of cotton, concrete with tents, uh, and then the cottages got
developed. And through the family, we had on my father’s side had a number of the cottages that
are still there, that are, you know. That are there. That are present. That are present. Uh, they had
ownership of tha number of the cottages there.
57:15 WV: What was
57:18 JV: Yeah, it was the Mueller. The Mueller, Mueller family. And my dad, Anderson
57:22 LM: Was that your, was that your, um, maiden name?
57:24 JV: Anderson and the Muellers.
57:27 LM: Anderson and Muellers
57:29 JV: On my father’s side
57:30 LM: On your father’s side
57:31 JV: yeah, he was Anderson. Then his mother was a Mueller. And um, so um, lot of uh,
and his mother was, uh, an artist. And she also was involved with Oxbow
57:47 LM: Oxbow.
57:49 JV: And then she also had a sister, uh, Aunt Hazel. And was a character. And she would
love to swim, and she would dive off the, as the story goes, she would dive off the masts of these
big boats that were docked along the Kalamazoo River and dive into the water.
58:12 LM: Oh really?
58:13 JV: And, and swim in the Kalamazoo River, and uh, and they, her husband, had a big
cottage, and we stayed, you know, visit them, and uh, my, so with my father’s father having the
history of Saugatuck, they bought property on Silver Lake in the, in 46, after the war. And, uh,
presently we have that, uh, property on Silver Lake. And, uh, my grandfather would take, um,
the large boats from Chicago, and they would dock in Saugatuck. And had a little motor boat.
And he would take the motor boat and take it into Silver Lake and be at the cottage. So in 46, uh,
um, he and my father and his, and his dad built the cottage by hand.
59:22 LM: Oh did they?

�59:24 JV: Um, with no electricity. So we had an outhouse, and uh, pot belly stove when I was a
little girl, and then eventually we improved as time went along.
59:34 LM: So you spent summers on Silver Lake?
59:37 JV: Summers
59:38 LM: And winters where?
59:38 JV: In Chicago.
59:40 LM: Chicago.
59:41 JV: And, uh, so my grandmother would stay at the cottage. With his, with her
grandchildren. And then my grandfather would come during the weekend to bring groceries and
supplies because she had no car. She was just right there.
1:00:01

LM: How far is Silver Lake?

1:00:02

JV: Silver Lake is right on the, by old Allegan Road.

1:00:04

LM: Oh, ok.

1:00:05

JV: Oh Allegan Road before 63rd Street. All those drives that go straight down

1:00:10

LM: Yeah, I don’t, I don’t know that

1:00:15

JV: Yeah, you can just see it, it from, from the

1:00:17

LM: So it’s close

1:00:18

JV: Yeah, it’s right here

1:00:20

LM: Did you, did you go to Saugatuck much from the from the cottage

1:00:24
JV: Oh yes. Growing up in the 60’s, 50’s and 60’s yeah. Yes. I had a great
childhood enjoying um, um, the boating, swimming, uh, I was a lifeguard, or, took lessons at
Goshard Lake and then
1:00:40

WV: She saved two children

1:00:44

LM: Did you really?

1:00:46

JV: I, I, at Goshard Lake, or where?

�1:00:49
LM: No, no, on Lake Michigan. I was a life guard, I mean I was a life guard
instructor at um, Goshard Lake, um, right now I’m trying to think of the family that was
involved. Um Crawford[mutters] Bob Crawford and I were instructors over there. And um, also
during that time we had the paddle boat. Um, the, the um
1:01:20

WV: Island Queen? Yeah. Island Queen.

1:01:21

JV: The um Island Queen um, was owned by

1:01:28

WV: Dick

1:01:28
JV: Dick Hoffman. And Dick Hoffman due to the fact that in the 70’s was quite
a, quite a college, college, college town. And he was concerned about the paddle boat. So he
would take the paddle boat and moor it in at Silver Lake. And so I got experience from going
back and forth
1:01:54

LM: Oh, going back and forth

1:01:57
JV: Uh, during that time all the kids would be able to get on the boat. He would
take the kids back to Saugatuck, but he would moor the, moor the paddleboats there
1:02:10

WV: I didn’t know that

1:02:11

JV: During the college, the college kids where in Saugatuck

1:02:15

WV: Hot town tonight!

1:02:15

LM: [laugh] right

1:02:17

WV: See those cops? Throw beer bottles at ‘em!

1:02:18

LM: Well that’s one of the questions

1:02:18
JV: The kids, and that’s during that time that the college kids were on top of the
old Crow and uh, all these, and the lampposts, remember, when I was a kids being in the back of
the car and just watching as we drove through town watching these college kids everywhere. On
the roofs.
1:02:45

LM: Were they really

1:02:46

JV: And that was

1:02:46

LM: It was summer?

1:02:47

JV: Probably probably the major weekends were the holiday weekends.

�1:02:52

WV: And the hot concerts

1:02:54

LM: And that would have been when you were a little kid?

1:02:58

JV: Little kid, little kids

1:02:59

LM: So that would have been when, in the 50’s?

1:03:00

JV: 50, 60, uh 60’s. I would say

1:03:03

LM: 60’s yeah. Ok

1:03:05

JV: Um, later, yeah. Yeah, about 50, 61, I would have been 10 years old. So, yeah

1:03:16

LM: Ok. You’re about my age. I was born in 1950. Yeah, yeah.

1:03:17

JV: So. It’s those memories, of, oh my

1:03:25

WV: They had filled up the concert that they had

1:03:30
you get into

LM: Yeah, they mentioned a couple, my question is what kind of shenanigans did

1:03:32

WV: Well, I [laugh]

1:03:35
LM: Were you a participant, an instigator, or by stander, and then what was your
impression of law enforcement in Saugatuck Douglas? Um, what special events did you attend,
like music festivals, auto or motorcycle races, or parties? Were these organized events, or
informal? And describe a scene, and you just did describe a scene about, [laugh] the kids hanging
off
1:04:02

WV: Oh, that was something

1:04:04

LM: But you remember well

1:04:05

JV: Yes.

1:04:06

LM: Was it because they were drunk or? What?

1:04:08

JV: oh just having a good time

1:04:08

LM: Just having a good time. Fun

1:04:10

WV: And they, you know, on 63rd, they had the big concert. You know there was

1:04:18

LM: Oh, I’ve heard about it. Yeah.

�1:04:19

WV: And that was, uh,

1:04:20

LM: But that was in the 60’s wasn’t it? Was that in the 60;s

1:04:21

WV: Masters.

1:04:22

LM: Masters

1:04:23
WV: L. Master. She had, they had grown bushes there, and uh, it was backed up.
Saugatuck was backed up almost half to Holland
1:04:34

LM: Was it?

1:04:34

WV: On the side of the road, on the highway.

1:04:35

LM: Really? Was that just one festival? See I left in 196-

1:04:38

WV: I think it was one festival

1:04:42
LM: I left in 1969 and went to the east coast. So, um, I used to come back and
visit my parents, but I’d never come over here. So I knew about some of these
1:04:50

WV: That was an exciting time.

1:04:52

LM: [laugh] yeah. Of course

1:04:58
WV: Yeah. The excitement. Anyway. They had no place to stay. They had no
place to park. The whole thing was filled. Police had
1:05:05
right?

LM: How many people came to that? Do you know? Was it, it was thousands,

1:05:09
WV: We could ask the Masters. They could give you, you know the kids could
give you the numbers I think, but it was thousands. It was oversold
1:05:15
happened?

LM: Was it? And that was, when was that? Late 60’s or mid 60’s when that

1:05:23

WV: I would say that was early uh, let’s see

1:05:25

LM: They probably got information out of it. I don’t know.

1:05:26

WV: Probably about 64. I would imagine. Somewhere in there.

1:05:30

JV: We’ve gone over an hour

�1:05:35
LM: We’ll keep talking a little bit, and then we’ll have to wrap up, but, yeah, I
mean God. I’m just going to look to see if any of these questions can be, um, uh. Let’s see.
Favorite memories. Is, oh. Oh yeah. Wrap it up. Ok. [laugh] That’s Nathan. It’s his office. Oh
poop. There’s so much to talk about. But I guess, I guess we’ll have to, we’ll have to wrap it up.
And you know, maybe they’ll ask you to come in again, because there’s so much, and you’ve got
a lot of stories too
1:06:13

WV: Yeah. Things I haven’t heard

1:06:14
LM: Oh really? [laugh]. Well I want to thank you for your time and, I mean,
you’ve got me more invested in Saugatuck history, but I mean, you’ve got like
1:06:24

WV: The foundry alone was

1:06:26

LM: I know! The foundry alone was

1:06:30
JV: The foundry alone was Warren’s in 71, and he was licensed for Greenfeld
village and Henry Ford Museum
1:06:34
about it?

LM: Oh really? Do they have information on this? Have you talked to Nathan

1:06:41

WV: No

1:06:41
JV: This was, this was our introduction to talk to someone to talk about the hotel
to get to know more information, but Warren’s foundry on 63rd street, where they built the
1:06:58

LM: Is a story in itself

1:06:58

JV: Is a story

1:07:00

WV: The Gerry Ford the whole thing

1:07:02

LM: Yeah, ok. Well I’ll stop it, and then we can

recording stops 1:07:05

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans’ History Project
Jerome Warren
World War II
29 minutes 39 seconds
(00:00:11) Early Life
-Born in Byron Center, Michigan, on November 11, 1926
-Moved to Traverse City, Michigan, when he was a boy
-Moved to Ottawa Lake, Michigan, due to his father becoming a superintendent at a paper mill
-Had steady work through the Great Depression
-Oldest of five children
-Graduated from high school in 1944
(00:01:21) Start of Second World War
-Remembers the attack on Pearl Harbor
-He was a freshman in high school
-Parents and he were aware of the attack and its consequences
-Didn’t think the United States was going to get into the war before Pearl Harbor
-Didn’t read the newspaper or follow the news on the radio
-Immediate response in the community following the attack was anger and concern
-Was the United States going to get invaded?
-Didn’t know what would happen
-Thought it was a temporary skirmish and be a short conflict
-Thought Japan was trying to flex its military muscles against America
-Started paying attention to the news and following battles
-Remembers the battle of Guadalcanal
-A few seniors from his school joined the Marines and fought there
(00:04:12) Enlisting in the Navy
-Talked to his parents about enlisting
-Mother was against it
-Didn’t want to get drafted
-Enlisted in the Navy on November 11, 1944
-Liked the living conditions in the Navy
-Didn’t want to be an infantryman living outside in horrid conditions
(00:06:04) Basic Training
-Sent to Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois, for basic training
-Did calisthenics and marching
-Had 20mm gun training
-He was a cartridge loader
-Each cartridge contained four-shells
-Did fire drills
-Had a model of a ship with compartments on fire

�-Wore gas masks, and had to navigate the burning ship
-Plane recognition
-Went to the firing range and trained on rifles and .45 caliber pistols
-Had bad aim with the pistol, because of too much recoil
-Good aim with the rifle
-High emphasis on discipline and following orders
-A lot of recruits had trouble with that, but he didn’t
-Punished with kitchen duty, or extra marching, but nothing vicious
-Basic training lasted 10 weeks
(00:08:13) Signal Training
-Sent to Sampson Naval Training Center, New York, located on Lake Geneva
-Received 12 weeks of signal training
-Learned how to use blinker lights, semaphore flags, shipboard flag signals, and plane ID’ing
-Had to do 12 words per minute with the lights, and 22 minutes with semaphore flags
(00:09:34) Deployment to Pacific Theatre
-Sent to Camp Shoemaker, California
-Placed on a Dutch merchant ship headed for the Philippines
-Left in late spring of 1945
-He was at Sampson Naval Training Center when FDR died (April 12, 1945)
-This means he left the United States sometime in May 1945
-The ship carried American naval personnel, and had an East Indian crew
-Stopped in Honolulu for a week
-Stopped at the island of Samar before continuing on to Manila
-Atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima around the time of arriving in Manila
(00:11:41) Service aboard USS APL-19
-Assigned to duty aboard the USS APL-19 in Manila harbor for the rest of his service
-APL: Auxiliary Personnel, Living
-Place for personnel in transit to stay a few days before going to another station
-Held 100-200 personnel at any given time
-Looked like a two-story barge, with bunks stacked four-high
-No armaments, no engine, and no propulsion
-They would have been a sitting duck had they been attacked
-His duty was to drive the skipper to headquarters every Monday
-Never sent a signal message while in Manila
-Requested a transfer to a destroyer, but there were no openings for him
-Started days by getting up, having breakfast, then going to roll call
-If he had guard duty, he was issued a .45 caliber pistol
-Questioned any personnel that wanted to go aboard the ship
-If he was on signal duty, he stood by the signal light for four hours a time
-On guard duty, he stood by the gangplank
(00:15:42) Crew of the USS APL-19
-Part of a 100-man crew
-Had crew for food service, laundry, painting, and maintaining the ship

�-There were some black crewmen
-Usually handled cooking and laundry
-Doesn’t recall them being segregated
(00:17:01) Visiting Manila
-Visited Manila
-Went to some of the bars
-Some men bought prostitutes, but he didn’t
-City had been laid to waste
-Reconstruction hadn’t begun, yet
-No contact with civilians, but children followed American personnel asking for a hand out
(00:18:30) Commander
-One of his primary duties was to drive around lieutenant commander Fitzsimmons
-Part of U.S. Navy Reserve
-Nice man
-Young
-From Amarillo, Texas
(00:19:05) Returning to the United States Pt. 1
-Stayed in Manila until 1947
-Sailed to San Diego, down the Mexican coast, through the Panama Canal, to Jacksonville
-Stayed in Manila for his entire time in the Philippines
-Didn’t want to travel into the countryside, and ship never left the harbor
(00:20:03) Contact with Home
-Wrote home to his parents on a regular basis
-Had almost consistent contact with them
(00:20:25) Pistol Accident
-One night, he was up for guard duty, and the guard on-duty gave him his pistol
-Jerome accidentally pulled the trigger and discharged the pistol
-Cost him a month of liberty ashore
-Chastised for the accident because he could’ve hurt himself or someone else
(00:21:45) Living Conditions, Disease, &amp; Hygiene
-Hot and humid all the time
-Eventually adjusted to the tropical climate
-Issued salt tablets to avoid dehydration
-During basic training, he was given a battery of vaccinations
-Issued anti-malarial medications
-Never got seasick
-Remembers 100 men leaning on the railing and throwing up going to the Philippines
-He didn’t do anything special, just got lucky
-Stressed to keep clean
-Showered daily, and got clean clothing every day
-Had a special soap to be used with saltwater
(00:24:33) Returning to the United States Pt. 2
-Heard a rumor they were going home six months before they left

�-Rode on USS APL-19 across the Pacific Ocean back to the United States
-Concerning experience, because he didn’t know how stable the ship was
-Towed by an oceangoing tug
-Only time he signaled outside of training (messages to/from the tug)
-No storms on the return voyage, but there were some heavy seas
-Closer to the United States the weather calmed
-Stopped at San Diego, so the tug could refuel, then sailed down the Mexican coast
-Originally planned on stopping in Cuba, but there was unrest
-Sailed to Jacksonville, Florida, and the ship was decommissioned
(00:27:25) End of Service
-Had to stay in the Navy for an extra month despite having enough “points”
-Note: points - awarded to military personnel, had to reach a number to get discharged
-Sent to Watervliet Arsenal in New York for the last month of service
-Discharged at Great Lakes Naval Station
(00:28:02) Life after Service
-Worked in the paper mill with his father
-Attended college at Iowa Wesleyan University
-Uncle was on the staff, and he was able to stay with his uncle for his first year
-Joined Phi Delta Theta fraternity
-Graduated from college in 1951
-Got a job with Whirlpool
-Eventually became a manager
(00:29:04) Reflections on Service
-Time in the Navy taught him discipline
-Taught him to be organized and focused
-Taught him a good hygiene regimen

�</text>
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Boring, Frank</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans' History Project
Joyce Washburn
Career (Vietnam Era-Gulf War Era)
44 minutes 56 seconds
(00:00:37) Early Life
-Born in October 1949 in Grand Rapids, Michigan
-Grew up in Grand Rapids on the north side of the city
-Father was a paint contractor and her mother worked as his secretary
-Attended Creston High School
-Graduated in 1967
(00:01:13) Boyfriend's Service in Vietnam
-Her boyfriend in high school, Dennis Lobbezoo, enlisted in the Marines in spring 1967
-Began training in July 1967
-It was expected that young men would either go to college or join the military
-He also loved his country
-Deployed to Vietnam in mid-December 1967
-Stationed near the demilitarized zone
-Part of Echo Company, 2nd Battalion, 26th Marine Regiment
-Served in Da Nang, Khe Sanh, and Con Thien
-Wounded at Khe Sanh and was sent to a hospital ship
-Rejoined his unit in March 1968
-He was killed in action in June 1968
-She wrote him two to three times a week
-She was attending college in Grand Rapids
-Called home during lunch to see if she got a letter from Dennis
-Talked about their future together and their plans
-He would tell her that he was okay and would be home soon
-He didn't talk about combat or his living conditions
-When he was killed his parents were told first, then they told her parents
-In a way, she knew that it was coming
-They had planned on getting married when he returned from duty
-Difficult time for her after he was killed, but kept going to college
(00:06:45) Enlisting in the Naval Reserves
-Joined the Navy Reserve in May 1968
-Promised Dennis that she would finish her bachelor's degree and finish things for him
-Felt that joining the Navy Reserve was her way of finishing things
-Joined the Navy Reserve with the intention of becoming a corpsman
-Meant she would get the chance to treat wounded Marines
-Way of coping with Dennis's death and staying in touch with him, spiritually
(00:08:06) Basic Training
-Went to basic training in August 1968
-Sent to United States Naval Training Center, Bainbridge in Maryland
-Had a special program for training women

�-Didn't know what to expect going into the Navy
-Most women did clerical work, but she wanted to be a corpsman
-Approved for that training after she completed basic training
-Basic training was incredibly intense
-Wanted it to end, but when it was over she was sad
-Got up every day at 5 AM
-Got dressed, made sure their beds were made properly
-Most of training consisted of classes
-How a uniform should look and how a locker should be arranged
-Swimming classes and water survival training
-Learned how to use their pants as a flotation device
-Marched a lot
-Learned about rank and who to salute
-Had female drill instructors
-Wasn't much screaming or yelling at the recruits
-Drill instructor was there to encourage and guide them
-Trained with only 16 other women and they were all Reservists
-Came from a variety of backgrounds
-Some were also in college
-Remembers one girl who was from Montana
-Oldest woman was 27 years old
-Basic training lasted 10 weeks
(00:12:33) Naval Hospital Corps School
-After basic training she went back to Grand Rapids and continued with college
-In summer 1969 she reported to Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois
-Received hands-on training
-During the fall of 1968 and the winter of 1969 she took classes in Grand Rapids
-Went to the Navy-Marine Reserve Center on Wednesday nights
-Studied mostly with other male corpsmen, and only one other female corpsman
-Got a lot of attention from the men, but they were also protective
-There was an officer that was basically sexually harassing her
-The male staff would give her jobs to get away from the
officer
-The school was co-ed
-At the end men went to Camp Lejeune, North Carolina for Field Medical Training
-At Great Lakes Naval Station she received medical training
-Taking a patient's pulse and temperature
-Recognizing the symptoms of diseases and how to treat them
-How to take medical notes for hospital records
-Similar to being a licensed practical nurse (LPN)
-Learned how to give shots, take blood, and make diagnoses
-Learned how to treat combat wounds
-Went to the hospital and treated men wounded in training and in Vietnam
-Trained by nurses and higher ranking corpsmen as well as some doctors
-Most of the corpsmen at the hospital were women
-Male corpsmen were in Vietnam, on ships, or on coastal bases

�(00:17:48) Relationship with Fellow Soldiers &amp; Base Protocol
-Her second time at Great Lakes the protocol for soldier relationships was more strictly
enforced
-Not allowed to show public affection with another soldier
-Could be asked to present Liberty Card and ID card at any time when she was on base
-Always had to be in uniform on base
(00:18:54) Anti-War Protests
-She was at Grand Valley State University for her junior and senior years of college
-Noticed a lot of anti-war protests
-Initially avoided the protestors then got angry about them
-Protestors wore the names of men killed in Vietnam
-Felt like the protestors were traitors
-Wasn't at Great Lakes for the 1968 Democratic National Convention Riots in Chicago
(00:20:27) Navy Career Pt. 1
-Finished college at Grand Valley State University
-Went on active duty in the summers
-After school she reenlisted and served two weeks in the summer and one weekend per
month
-Served in the Navy Reserves for 26 years
-Did four weeks one summer in two, two week segments
-Most of her service was done at Great Lakes Naval Station
-Served at the naval hospital in San Diego and in Pensacola
-Also got to serve at Bethesda Naval Hospital
-Did work at the U.S. Navy Bureau of Medicine and Surgery in Washington D.C.
-Worked on a domestic violence program
-Worked there in September 1988
-Military started to pay attention to domestic violence in the 1980s
-Worked at Bethesda in 1991 and 1993
(00:23:40) Gulf War
-Called up for service during the Gulf War, but she was pregnant at the time
-Pregnant with youngest son, so she couldn't be deployed
-Her unit was assigned to a hospital ship off the coast of Kuwait, but she didn't have to go
-Her son was born the same day the bombing campaign began (January 17, 1991)
(00:24:33) Navy Career Pt. 2
-Bethesda was an amazing assignment
-Hospital that treats the president and the political elite
-Had every possible medical technology available there
-Now part of the Walter Reed National Military Medical Center
-Does a lot of work with veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan
-Worked in the Psychological Department at Great Lakes Naval Station
-Did that after the Vietnam War was over, but before the Gulf War
-Starting to treat men with PTSD
-Unaware of psychological problems in the 1960s and 1970s
-They weren't talked about and not considered a medical issue
-Worked with men wounded in Vietnam
-Visited a wounded soldier in the hospital at Great Lakes

�-They had gone to high school together
-Felt like she was doing something to help the war effort
(00:28:15) Women in the Navy
-At the beginning of her career women were a novelty
-Allowed to be married, but could not have children
-When she was stationed at Great Lakes her husband couldn't go into her barracks
-Her barracks was for women only
-In Pensacola they had co-ed barracks
-Later in her service women were allowed to have children and not be discharged
-At the end of her career combat roles were opened up to women
-A lot of women worked in hospitals and the hospitals were less militarily structured
-Allowed women to be treated as equals
-Played on co-ed softball teams with male enlisted men and officers
-Working in hospitals insulated her from the sexism that existed in the rest of the
military
-She was part of the unit at the Navy-Marine Reserve Center in Monroe Center, Grand
Rapids
-Mostly men, but still treated like an equal
-Over time saw more women join that unit
-They were still a minority
-Still mostly did clerical or medical work
(00:32:44) Civilian Careers
-Did civilian jobs and raised a family when she wasn't on duty
-Worked at the Department for Social Services as a caseworker
-Did computer work for 10 years
-Worked as a substance abuse specialist in Lansing, Michigan near the end of her Navy
career
-Allowed her to do substance abuse rehab work in the Navy
-Got a master's degree in public administration
(00:33:52) Promotion
-She was the first woman in her unit to make the rank of Chief Petty Officer
-Went through an informal initiation ceremony at the Reserve Center
-Had another female Chief Petty Officer oversee it to make sure it was
appropriate
-Made Chief Petty Officer in 1989
-Pay grade of E-7 (similar to the rank of sergeant in the Army)
-Allowed her to go to Chief's Clubs
-More exclusivity with being a Chief Petty Officer
(00:36:10) A Memorial for Dennis
Note: Following information is in chronological order, not as it appears in interview
-Three or four years ago she participated in the Reading of the Wall Ceremony in D.C.
-Reading the names of the men and women on the Vietnam War Memorial
-After that she continued to leave notes on Dennis's profile on the memorial's
website
-A year and a half ago she was approached by a Dr. [Edward] Byrd who was making a
memorial for Dennis

�-Dr. Byrd had treated Dennis on the hospital ship when he was wounded
-They became friends during that time
-On Dr. Byrd's last day in Vietnam he learned that Dennis had died
-She and Dr. Byrd worked together to find a location in Grand Rapids for the
memorial
-Memorial is now at the Steelcase Library, Pew Campus, Grand Valley State
University
[see also interview with Dr. Byrd in this archive]
-The memorial gives her a sense of closure
-Feels like Dennis has been brought back home
-Dennis was sponsored by a local baseball team as a local hero
(00:41:32) Reflections on Service
-Had wonderful experiences
-Made a lot of friends
-Didn't really realize she was a veteran until after she was out of the Navy
-People thank her husband for his service
-In return he makes sure people know Joyce is a veteran too so they can thank her
as well
-Learned a lot about medicine while in the Navy
-Taught her how to work with people which helped with her civilian jobs

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