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                    <text>Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: Ross, Wanda
Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez and Melanie Shell-Weiss
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 8/24/2012

Biography and Description
Wanda Ross grew up in Chicago, the granddaughter of migrants from the southern United States.
Shortly after she began college, she started attending political education classes taught by “Teach” of
the Black Panther Party for Self Defense (BPP). She joined the BPP shortly thereafter. She was chief
developer of the BPP’s Breakfast for Children Program. Ms. Ross describes how she started the Chicago
program, including how she identified donors who would be willing to give food to the program, picked
up those supplies, and organized teams to cook and serve the children who participated in the program.
The BPP Breakfast Program was used as a model by other organizations, including the Young Lords and
Young Patriots. The program also served as a model for the free breakfast programs currently offered
through public schools. Ms. Ross talks about working with representatives of those other groups. She
also describes the regular abuse, harassment, and vandalism she experienced from police and other law
enforcement operatives while she was working on the Breakfast Program. This includes her experiences
with Bill O’Neil, the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s COINTELPRO operative who arranged for BPP
Chairman Fred Hampton’s assassination in 1971. Ms. Ross remains a community activist in Chicago,
putting into practice her reminder that “saving the world” is a lifetime commitment.

�Transcript

JOSE JIMENEZ:

Okay. Wanda, if you can give me your full name, date of birth, and

where you were born.
WANDA ROSS:

My name is Wanda Ross. I was born, Cook County Hospital,

Chicago, Illinois. 9/28/50.
JJ:

9/28/50? And your parents, were they born here, too? In Chicago?

WR:

It’s my understanding, I was adopted by people within my family line. And they
were born here in Chicago, my auntie and my cousin.

JJ:

Your auntie and your cousin?

WR:

Right. My --

JJ:

Okay. So, they raised you, then?

WR:

Yes. Yes.

JJ:

And what’s their name?

WR:

That would be [Bernice?] Ross, who was my cousin, and my great-aunt would be
[Jessie Circe?] -- Jessie Circe probably was born in Alabama. Bernice Ross was
born in Cook County Hospital.

JJ:

Okay. You have any other siblings, or --? [00:01:00] And their names.

WR:

There’s three different sets of kids. I happened to be with the second set, but like
I said, I was adopted, so I was raised away from them.

JJ:

From all of them?

WR:

Right. Well, we have connected over time, but not as a child.

JJ:

Okay. What about other aunts and uncles, were they around, or --?

1

�WR:

I didn’t really interact with a lot of other people, except the folks that raised me.
They were old folks.

JJ:

They were old folks?

WR:

Right, so I was an old folks’ child.

JJ:

Okay. So, what’s so different between that and the traditional parents, or?

WR:

I guess, you know -- Everybody in the household was over 40 but me, so they
put me in a lot of activities. I did Girl Scouts, I did whatever activity they could
find for me. I did not interact with my brothers and sisters growing up, because I
didn’t know ’em that [00:02:00] well. And basically it was a small family, it was a
small family unit.

JJ:

Okay. So, you didn’t -- Did you stay at home, also, or, I mean, sheltered, like,
somewhat, or were you outgoing, or were able to -- I know you didn’t interact with
other children.

WR:

Well, I didn’t say “not interact with other children”. But, at the old folks’ home,
you have a certain approach to things. I mean, I took dancing, I took -- They had
me in activities to keep me from bouncing off the walls. And I went to a Catholic
grammar school, Catholic high school. So--

JJ:

Okay. What school? What Catholic school?

WR:

I went to St. Dorothy.

JJ:

Okay, where was that located?

WR:

Grammar school, that’s at -- 77th and Vernon, it’s on the South Side of Chicago.

JJ:

On the South Side, on the South Side.

2

�WR:

And then I went to a Catholic high school, which was within walking distance.
That was Mercy, I don’t think it’s [00:03:00] there anymore.

JJ:

So how was the grammar school, any unique things that you did there, or --?

WR:

I’m not sure what you’re looking for, the uniqueness of a childhood.

JJ:

Yeah, I’m just trying to find out, you know, growing up, how it was growing up,
basically, I’m just trying to describe for people that are not from Chicago or have
no concept about that. So that’s basically (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

WR:

Well, it’s like a snapshot demographic, everybody’s childhood is different. I went
back and forth until I was finally adopted. So, I did stay with my mom, I think up
until I was maybe three or four. But I was sickly. I had tuberculosis and had
been in a tuberculosis sanatorium for a year. [00:04:00] It just so happened that
my cousin and my aunt were more committed, because I was presenting a lot of
health issues that my mom didn’t want to deal with. So, I went back and forth for
a while. So, for a while I was a sickly kid. Then, when I finally came to live with
them at seven, I just stayed --

JJ:

Back and forth to where?

WR:

Huh?

JJ:

Back and forth to where? I didn’t get --

WR:

I lost my train of thought.

JJ:

I’m sorry.

WR:

I don’t know where I was.

JJ:

You were describing about (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

3

�WR:

I stayed with my mom for a minute. Then I was back with my auntie and cousin -

JJ:

But your mom lives here?

WR:

Then I went back with my mom. And I got sick again, and I went back with them,
and then they kept me.

JJ:

Okay, (inaudible).

WR:

So, I mean, you know, as a sickly kid, I guess I didn’t, you know -- Then, when I
stayed there, I think I came to stay with them at 7, and at 10, they adopted me.
So.

JJ:

[00:05:00] Okay. But was your mom here, or in Alabama?

WR:

She was here. But, I think, somewhere in the late ’60s, but I was pretty much an
adult, or close to being an adult, she moved down to southern Illinois. Right, so I
think she lives around Carbondale, Murphysboro, that kind of stuff.

JJ:

How would you describe your neighborhood in the South Side, at that time?

WR:

My neighborhood was one that -- I grew up in Chatham. White folks were just
leaving the neighborhood, and Black folks were moving in. And I remember, the
only reason I went to Catholic school was ’cause it was down the street. But I
think that the nuns were caught up in having to deal with Black children, and it
[00:06:00] wasn’t what they were trying to do. Because we had -- We didn’t have
big issues, but we still had some racial issues, because, I don’t think they were
prepared for the neighborhood to change. Eh.

JJ:

So, kind of racial issues, are you [talking about?]?

4

�WR:

Well, always nuns, with, you know, “you people”. You know, there’s a demeanor.
Of, dealing with -- you could tell that they got caught in a changing neighborhood.
And there was nothing that they could do about it. You know, they were sisters
of Mercy, they had to do what they needed to do. And the younger ones were a
lot better, the older ones, they had issues. We didn’t have issues.

[Phone rings]
JJ:

So, you’re describing that your neighborhood was changing at the --

WR:

Yeah, I mean, Black folks were moving in, I mean, I’m still a kid. So, you know,
there’s a lot of things that I can assess looking back. But when you’re in the
middle of it -- [00:07:00] Because I remember the three or four white folks that
were left on the block. There was an old couple that was next to us, and my
mom used to make me go over there and be nice to them, which was just --

JJ:

Didn’t wanna be nice to ’em?

WR:

Not at all. (laughter) Not at all. They were old folks, they were white --

JJ:

(overlapping dialogue; inaudible) but you were young.

WR:

-- and they smelled like pee, which is what old folks smell like. So, you know we
made up stories. Somebody was Dracula, somebody was the wife of Dracula,
you know, just stuff, and, you know, it took me getting older to be able to see
them as just people. Because they were still kind of, you know, when people are
outside of your regular, everyday, thing, like I said, they were old folks, they were
white, and they smelled like pee. You know? This would never fly. You know?

JJ:

Yeah. (inaudible)

WR:

But --

5

�JJ:

But then your mom, or, [00:08:00] I mean (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

WR:

Who I called my mom, would’ve been my cousin. There’s just things that I think
the neighborhood was more of a neighborhood, like, I think that people across
the street were an old married couple, didn’t have kids; she made me go over
there to visit with them, so there are just certain things in place, that sense of
neighborhood, that -- And there was an old white German guy that was left, he
didn’t speak English well. But see, now, he would come out with a pistol and just
scare everybody away. You know, if we ran through his yard, or that -- You
know, so, I mean, you get bits and pieces of some white folks that were left
behind.

JJ:

So, there were --

WR:

-- because they didn’t have resources to move. And then you get other pieces of
just, the sense of neighborhood, because we all knew each other. And I think we
played within a two- or three-block [00:09:00] radius, something like that. So,
you know, on the neighborhood, you had, on the block, you had a teacher, a
doctor, a funeral director. I think there was somebody at the end of the block that
might have might have dealt drugs. But it was a sense of, professional people
plus other people, that all lived together in one situation. So, there was a lot
more, maybe, respect, from kids, you know. From kids to old folks. A lot more
Black people owned things. Because I don’t remember having to go out of the
neighborhood for too many things that I needed. The grocery store was down
the street, so-and-so was across the street, you know. So, it was self-sufficient,
[00:10:00] in some ways. And, in other ways, I guess I didn’t see the lack until I

6

�got older. You know, as a kid, I’m cool. School was down the street. Mom is
here. Somebody else is across the street that’s going to tell anybody if I do
something wrong. You know, it’s that sense of neighborhood. But the interesting
thing is that we didn’t go east. We didn’t go past Stony Island. I remember
getting -- because the neighborhood was still white in a lot of areas. I’m at King
Drive, so King Drive is, like, about 400 East. Stony Island is 1600 East. Okay,
so you still have a large white clientele that you, you just didn’t go there. You
know. I can reme-JJ:

Were you afraid to go there, or --

WR:

Huh?

JJ:

Were you afraid to go there, [00:11:00] or --?

WR:

You know what, I’m not sure if I was afraid. I was just told, “You just don’t go
there.”

JJ:

Okay, just told.

WR:

You know and I can remember my mom taking me somewhere to get a Brownie
outfit at Evergreen Plaza. But they wouldn’t sell to Black folks, and that was at
95th and Western. I mean, you know, there’s little things that you remember as
you grow up. I don’t remember anything other than just dirty looks, I mean, you
know, nobody --

JJ:

So, there were dirty looks (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

WR:

Right. Nobody picked me up and threw me down, you know. But --

JJ:

Were there, like, gangs or anything like that? Or white gangs, or no?

WR:

Not that I was familiar with. Not at all. I think the --

7

�JJ:

In Lincoln Park, we’d face white gangs.

WR:

Right, no, we did. We did. But then again, as a girl, my experience would be
different than some of the young men. Because, [00:12:00] I mean, we were still
of the age, all the way through high school, if we went to parties, you know,
somebody’s mom had to take us there and pick us up. But the guys, a lot of the
guys came home on the bus, so there’s certain territories that they might not
have crossed. And I’m not sure if it was -- I’m pretty sure it wasn’t white gangs, it
was just gang territory. But we pretty much got dropped off and picked up to
anything that we did outside of the neighborhood, ’cause, we just thought it was
parenting. That’s not to say -- and I’m not sure how deep, you know, the gang
situation, I think, was just becoming. You know, it wasn’t at the point that it was
unsafe, it was more “beware” than being in an unsafe environment. But just be
very wary of the environment that you’re in.

JJ:

’Cause I know now there’s a large problem on the South Side, I don’t know if
that’s the same [00:13:00] area or-- is that where a lot of the gang activity is
now? I hear just bits and pieces in Michigan, so.

WR:

Well, I think in my lifetime, because I’m probably about the same age as Jeff
Fort, or he might be a little older. I’m saying that those gangs were developing.
But they were still further --

JJ:

Was that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?

WR:

No. That was still much further away from me, ’cause I’m in Chatham.

JJ:

Right, you’re in Chatham.

WR:

When you start talking about Jeff Fort, the, what were they, Blackstone Rangers-

8

�JJ:

Yeah, the Blackstone Rangers.

WR:

And the Disciples. The Disciples were west of the expressway. And Blackstone
Rangers were basically down in what we called the low end, like, around 63rd.
So, it was still not an environment. It’s like, we were aware of them, but they
were just beginning to form. And most of the time, a lot of the gang interaction
was with each [00:14:00] other. You know, they weren’t necessarily picking on
people they didn’t know. Now, that developed, and it changed. But, not as I was
growing up, no, I wasn’t that aware of it. Not at all.

JJ:

So, you didn’t experience none of that?

WR:

I didn’t experience gang stuff until considerably later.

JJ:

Okay. You experienced looks that you were getting from (overlapping dialogue;
inaudible) --

WR:

Just white folks, you know, like, “Why are you here?” Or, some people refusing
to serve us. You know, but most of the time, you know, our parents would
interpret that and just push us out of the way. ’Cause we’re kids. You know, we
don’t have to do any business interaction. So -- I took dancing at Mayfair
Academy. And the guy there, Tommy [00:15:00] Sutton, he used to take us
places for us to dance. We did tap. I remember we were on a Ted Mack hour.
And I remember when we went downtown, that it was a big deal about him being
able to park in a certain parking lot. But most of the time, grown folks always
pushed us out of those issues. And I remember that we were at the studio, we
were around all day, just to tape two or three minutes. And whenever anything
felt uncomfortable, he always just moved us out of the way, so, you know. We

9

�were always around grown folks that were protecting us from certain things, and
this had to have been -- I was 10, so it had to have been 1960.
JJ:

What got you into dancing? I think you sang also, or no, or --?

WR:

I do now, but I didn’t then.

JJ:

You didn’t do it then? But what got you (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) --

WR:

Being at an old folks’ house. [00:16:00] I mean, you know, it’s kind of like, “We’re
gonna have some activ--” ‘cause everybody worked. So, if everybody gets up
and go to work, the last thing they need is me sitting at home unattended. My
great-auntie, she did day work. Which meant that she went and cleaned white
folks’ houses, that’s what she did. I remember, she had a family, they were
leaving, and they stopped by the house to say goodbye, and I remember the little
girl saying, “Well, they don’t need you!” And they called her by her first name,
and I didn’t even know she had a first name! (laughs) She was my auntie, she
was a old lady. How does a little-bitty girl say Jessie? I’m like, “Ooh, who are
you?” You know? But, so she did day work. Everybody in the household
worked. Because we were moving to a better neighborhood, and everybody had
to contribute to this, so that also meant that [00:17:00] I needed to be in some
activities. They’re not gonna leave a little kid unattended. You know, shoot. I’d
be out just doing mayhem and havoc.

JJ:

Okay. So now, you’re going to school --

WR:

Catholic school.

JJ:

Catholic school, how was that? Was this high school, or no?

WR:

Catholic grammar school and high school.

10

�JJ:

And high school, okay. What school was that?

WR:

The grammar school was St. Dorothy.

JJ:

St. Dorothy?

WR:

And actually, I was there at the time that there was this big dispute. Father
Clements --

JJ:

He was [working there?]?

WR:

-- came there.

JJ:

Oh, he just came there.

WR:

Right, but there was a Father Lambert already there, who was the first Black
priest ordained in [00:18:00] Chicago. And there was this big fight over whether
or not -- the white pastor had died, who was going to be the pastor, and it was
supposedly between the two Black guys. Father Lambert, since, I think he went
on to -- He ended up being over at University of Chicago. And Father Clements
was there at St. Dorothy.

JJ:

So, Father Clements came there. He was there for a few years, or?

WR:

He was there for a few years, yeah.

JJ:

Okay. So, he was pretty -- a little progressive, no, Father Clements, or no?

WR:

I guess you could say he was progressive.

JJ:

You don’t agree? (laughs)

WR:

Well, actually, I liked Father Lambert. But the thing about Father Clements
[00:19:00] was I think he was a lot more outgoing. There were more things going
on. Civil Rights Movement was actually just picking up then. And you had a lot
of people coming and trying to raise money. I remember hearing ministers from

11

�SCLC speak that maybe would not have happened under Father Lambert. But I
thought Father Clements wanted to just be in the news, that was just my opinion.
But I was a kid. You know, I mean, you make assessments of things, because,
you know, I’ve grown up with Father Lambert, and here came Father Clements.
But he was pastor there for a while. And I do think -JJ:

(overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Father Clements in there, you know, because I
know of his name. So, what was Father [00:20:00] Lambert, [then?]?

WR:

Father Lambert eventually ended up being my treasurer when I was with the
Panthers. We formed -- I formed a corporation. And I ended up making him the
treasurer, so that he had to sign off on stuff. I think I pushed him further than he
was willing to go. But he was a good guy. He’s kind of like, “The Panthers?”
(laughter) I was sure that I pushed him further than he was willing to go.

JJ:

But he did it, though.

WR:

But he did it. But he did it. Matter of fact, when I was in the party, when we had
the office raided for the food and I had to find some other place for food --

JJ:

’Cause how many times was it raided, the Panther office?

WR:

Actually, I only remember two. There were more times than that, but these were
the times that [00:21:00] the food was destroyed. So--

JJ:

Okay, so, what’d you do then?

WR:

So, I mean, I can only say about the aftermath. I came in, and all I saw was eggs
and meat spread all over the floor. And I think, the roof, there was a slight fire
there. So, I had made a deal with the people at St. Dorothy’s, which, there was a
white person there by then, that I used to keep the food there. Because they had

12

�coolers. And then just pick it up and drop it off at the breakfast programs until I
could find some other place. But I used to store food at St. Dorothy’s, because of
that.
JJ:

Okay. So, I wanna get into how you got the food there, but there was a raid.
Was anybody hurt at it, how did that come about?

WR:

I’m not totally sure --

JJ:

The first one (inaudible).

WR:

The raid that I can [00:22:00] talk about was the one that -- [Terry?] was in. I’m
trying to think -- Terry [Mason?]. And actually, Terry Mason went to the same
grammar school that I did. I remember it was eight of them, and I don’t
remember -- I remember Terry was there, I remember [Shea?] was there. [Big
Moody?], I think was there, and I don’t remember who the rest were. My
understanding is that the police gained entry, and I’m still not clear about how
they gained entry. I can assume that there was no OD on the door at the time.

JJ:

Now, we’re talking about a second story --

WR:

We’re talking about on the second floor.

JJ:

On the second floor, sorry. And then we’re talking about a steel door
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible) so they gained entry --

WR:

And I’m not sure whether they gained entry from the door in the front or the door
in the back. I don’t know if the door in the back was quite as strong as the door
in the front. You know, there’s another [00:23:00] reality that you have to look at
from the Panthers, and that is that we didn’t have everything to back up what we
said. And, like I said, I don’t think the door in the back was as strong as the door

13

�in the front. Because I’m not sure how they gained entry. But once they did,
they decimated the office. They arrested the young men, and they beat them up.
Okay, now, we said a lot of things that should be, but we didn’t instigate. So, a
lot of times, we ended up being on the tail-end of violence, because we did not
instigate it. The point of the matter was, we were there to do the right thing, be
the right thing, and show people what the right thing should [00:24:00] be. But
we did not instigate a lot of what happened. And in many ways, we were not
even in a position to protect ourselves. But that’s a whole nother situation.
JJ:

Okay. So, they came in and they beat up everybody? (overlapping dialogue;
inaudible)

WR:

Took ’em to jail. Right. Terry was actually in a coma for more than two or three
weeks. I’m not even sure how long, because, when he came out of it, we didn’t
have any more contact. And I remember Terry from -- we were in the same
grade in grammar school. But I think Terry was trying to show everybody else
that he wasn’t scared. And they beat him senseless. He was a little guy, a really
little guy. [00:25:00] And I think his father was a doctor, or something, a dentist.

JJ:

So, what did they say, did they (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) fight with him or
something, or --?

WR:

I have no idea if they fought back. That’s something you need to talk to Shea
about. Because I wasn’t there, I mean, this is secondhand information. And
everybody told me a different story, because Terry was the one beat senseless.
I remember Big Moody said, “Everybody just shut up, take it, we will be out of jail

14

�in a little while.” Terry wanted to be Superman, and he was beat senseless. I
don’t think I interacted much with him after that.
JJ:

Okay. That was the first raid. The other one that you were --

WR:

That might have been the second raid.

JJ:

It might have been the second?

WR:

Right. The first one --

JJ:

And you said there were eight of them, these are the two that you --

WR:

Oh, I didn’t say there [00:26:00] were eight, I said there were two that I knew of.

JJ:

Two of them that you knew of.

WR:

Right, right, I cannot count --

JJ:

I stand corrected. (laughter)

WR:

Please, please, I don’t even know where you got that number from.

JJ:

I thought I had heard it somewhere.

WR:

Right, that’s like a rumor.

JJ:

Okay. (laughter)

WR:

Right, right, right. And I remember there was another raid that everybody was
preparing for that didn’t happen. I remember seeing the movie with one or two
people that I knew that are, you know, “We packing up for the raid,” you know,
“we getting ready,” you know, everybody’s loading up, I don’t even know if that
even happened. But there was another raid. I think that raid was -- I don’t think
it did as much damage to the office as the one that I’m talking about. They just
took some guys to jail. A lot of times, the situation was [00:27:00] to stop,
harass, and jail. As many times as we had Panthers going to jail, it depleted

15

�resources. You know? So, it was more or less, you know, if you see yourself in
a situation, best thing to do is shut up. So that it doesn’t become more serious
than need be. But a lot of it depleted our resources because those people that
were making contributions, they were used to get people out of jail. So that
meant that there’s less money that I could do for the breakfasts. Which is
another reason that we set the breakfasts up as a corporation, so that there
would be other people involved other than Panthers. Although I let everybody
know, it was Free Services Incorporated, we had the priest, we had a lawyer,
Lucy Montgomery was on the board.
JJ:

[I remember Lucy, yeah?].

WR:

Those are the ones that I can [00:28:00] remember. Jeffrey Haas, the lawyer, --

JJ:

-- was on the board?

WR:

He was on the board, right. Those are the ones that I remember. But most of
my interaction with the board people was probably me and the treasurer.
Because we got checks made up, set up a bank account so that people could
write checks to Free Services. It was incorporated and nonprofit. I didn’t
understand the 501 process, and we never got to that, but we were still a
nonprofit. Because, as I approached grocery stores, and people that had
resources, the first thing they said is, “Who can I write a check to?” Well, you
can’t say “The Black Panther Party.” I’m not even sure that we had a bank
account at the time. So -- that was why the breakfast was incorp--

JJ:

You mean the Panthers?

WR:

Right, that was why the breakfast was incorporated.

16

�JJ:

-- [you were never incorporated?], were there (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?
[00:29:00]

WR:

Huh? I’m not totally sure, [when I talked to Russ?], they very well might have
been.

JJ:

Oh, they could’ve been, yeah. ’Cause (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

WR:

Right, they very well could have been.

JJ:

[Definitely?] well-structured, yeah.

MELANIE SHELL-WEISS: I’m going to ask you a question, how did you join the
Panthers? Just to back up a bit.
WR:

I was at Circle. It was my first year at Circle. And, actually it was a perfect
storm. 1968. There was a guy running Socialist Party ticket. Young Patriots
used to hang out, there in the peer room. Plus, it was right after King had gotten
killed in April. So, a lot of the stuff that was going on ’66, ’67, ’68, I was too
young to be a part of. [00:30:00] So, when I got to the campus, and saw that
there was another step, you know, it’s kind of like, “Okay.” And [Chuckles?] was
at Circle. Chuckles was [Christine Amett?]. She was at Circle. Chuckles and I
became friends. But the other thing is, while I was at Circle, I also had a dance
group. And we had done two or three events. We were asked to do an event -We were on stage with some Panthers, and the other folks that were dancing
backed out. And it ended up being me. So, originally -- let me back up, get the
continuity straight. The dance kind of got us involved in doing some [00:31:00]
more Black stuff. Also, Chuckles is at Circle. And she kind of challenged us to
all come by the office, and at least come to one political education class. Once

17

�we came to one political education class, the other folks from the dance group
were kind of backing off, but it was so mind-boggling to me, because it was kind
of like the next step after [King?]. Because I still have that image in my mind, it
would have been my last year in high school, it was ’68 when King got killed and
the National Guard were lined straight down Cottage Grove. They were all
standing there, weapons at the ready. And the whole image of this, I think riots
probably broke out on the [00:32:00] west side. It didn’t on the South Side. But
the image of the National Guard standing here with weapons ready to protect
property never left me. So, here we are in September. I’m at Circle. I used to
be a good student. I wasn’t that great a student at Circle. I had a French class
and the instructor didn’t even speak English. And I was getting involved in more
extracurricular activity, beside the dancing. There were some Black and white
issues, but, actually, at Circle, there were more political issues. Because there
was so many political issues being discussed. And I think the perfect storm is,
everywhere you went, [00:33:00] everybody was asking you, “What are you
doing to save the world?” You know? “Are you just going to school, are you just
doing this, are you just doing that?” Until it was the climate. Then, like I said,
with Christine Amett, with Chuckles being there, she looked like a little [gem?].
You know, she had the boots and the fatigues and, it’s like, “Oh, okay.” Go to
one political education class. I went to a political education class, and the guy
teaching it was, his name, we called him “Teach”. I’d never heard anybody so
profound. It’s kind of like, “Oh, okay.” So, between Teach, and Chuckles, and
disenchantment with -- there was also a priest. A priest on the South Side that

18

�was trying to make Ashland the division line to stop Black [00:34:00] folks from
moving past a certain point, because of the white flight from Black
neighborhoods. And, there was also an issue with contract buyers, which was
actually in my neighborhood, just a little further down. Several Black folks had
bought homes on a contract buyers-type thing, where, if you got behind two or
three months, they put you out. They take your house. So, you’ve got all of
these things, you know, operating, kind of percolating. It’s kind of a perfect
storm. Then you have the Vietnam War. I was actually dating a guy at the time
that was in -- He used to call me. I can’t think of the name of the co-- He was in
Vietnam, but it was a city [00:35:00] in Vietnam, because he used to call me
every Sunday. And there were guys that were coming back, that had a lot to say
about the issues of Vietnam. Why were they there? And they couldn’t go
downtown and eat a hamburger or go to, like, [Ronny’s Steakhouse?]. If you
were downtown after a certain time, it’s kind of like, okay, nobody beating you up.
But they’re basically letting you know that you’re not welcome. Because Vietnam
was my era. So there was a lot of people that we knew between ’66 and ’68 that
were going to Vietnam and were coming back thoroughly dissatisfied. Some
were coming back drug addicts. Many were coming back missing limbs. And the
whole issue was, “What are we fighting for?” So I think all of that [00:36:00]
together is kind of like, it comes back to, “Okay, now what are you doing? What
are you doing? What are you doing?” And Teach put a lot of things in
perspective. As we started to read about colonialism and international racism.
So, it just seemed like, “My goodness, we can’t even live in this world unless we

19

�change it!” So that was my introduction to the Panthers, and I just kept getting
further and further. Does that answer your question? Yeah.
JJ:

Okay, so -- Teach is doing PE classes, huh? How were they done? I mean, I
remember -- was this at the church on the west side, or --

WR:

No, this was at the office.

JJ:

[00:37:00] Oh, this was at the office. So how --

WR:

This was at the office.

JJ:

How was that being done? I mean, what --

WR:

Well, if you didn’t do your homework, it wasn’t being done. I mean, he’s kind of
like, he’s teaching --

JJ:

Okay. So he gave homework, is that what --

WR:

Frantz Fanon, it’s like, you’re reading literature to put you up on. It was, Frantz
Fanon, [it was?] The Wretched of the Earth, and --

JJ:

You had to read it and you’d come back and report, or --?

WR:

We had to discuss it, we had to listen to him break it down. I would say that he
was probably an actual teacher. You know? He was profound in a lot of the
conclusions he drew. Talking about the struggle of Shea, talking about Frantz
Fanon, talking about Marx and Lenin. Some issues I have with Marx and Lenin,
but a lot of the other stuff, it was the reality when you, you know, began to define
[00:38:00] classes and how people separate themselves. It was so much more
history, and assessment, of world politics, than I’d ever heard. And I was a
student. I was studious, I wanted to know. So I think that’s what piqued my
interest, so -- And then, even studying the difference between a Marcus Garvey

20

�and a W. E. B. Du Bois. I mean, there’s so, so many struggles, and infighting,
which, until you actually focus and become aware, it’s kind of like, you can look
at the world and just pass through it, or you can look at the world and see the
landscape. And it was kind of like, suddenly there’s a landscape [00:39:00] that I
didn’t know existed, and an interpretation of the landscape, because you’re
watching all of the other things happen. I don’t know if -- Of course as you get
older, you see more in the landscape than you did. Okay? But that’s also
looking back. You can always see more looking back. But, to even realize that,
you know, you just don’t go through life bumping into stuff, sometimes you have
to step back and look at how things are constructed. And see if there’s a way to
deconstruct something, because racism -- Racism was so deep that it was a
reality in a lot of people’s lives. You know? It’s the same thing as me going for
an interview, and, you know, little white lady just putting my resume to the side.
Or putting it in the [00:40:00] garbage. She didn’t beat me up. Nobody hung me.
But all she did was to stop me from having an opportunity. And it goes down,
just that small, to even larger things, but it’s a way of thinking, it’s a way of
looking at things, it’s a way of interpreting things, and it’s a way of doing that
people don’t even realize that they do. And, it’s like, I guess that’s
institutionalized or internalized. And it’s looking at that, saying, “Well, how do you
change that?” You’re gonna have to attack institutions, because they’re the ones
that are teaching certain things. But it also goes deeper than that. And I guess
after looking at all of that, it’s like, “Okay, there’s more. [00:41:00] There’s more
to the iceberg than the tip.” So, are you gonna help change it? Are you just

21

�gonna be a part of it? And actually, the way I was raised, I pretty much didn’t
have to pay attention to it. Because I think adults try their best to put you in
situations where they will take the brunt of it. But at a certain point, everybody
needs to step up. That’s just my opinion.
JJ:

Okay. So, you had all these things for the breakfast program, [where you said?],
the office. All these things for the breakfast program, [they were?] --

WR:

Used to be. In the office.

JJ:

Used to be in the office.

WR:

Uh-huh.

JJ:

Did you set up the Panther breakfast program?

WR:

Yes I did.

JJ:

Okay. And can you explain how you [started?] doing that?

WR:

It was really all by accident. Actually, [00:42:00] I sang in church. I think that
summer, I sang at someone’s funeral. Someone I didn’t know. But she was
close to my age. When I joined the Panthers, there was someone else that, we
were supposed to be doing it together, [Barbara Sankey?] and I. Barbara wasn’t
really that into it, but she could drive and I couldn’t. So, the first person that I
met, I went to [AMP?]. It’s like, “Well, we may as well go to somebody that has
food,” you know, “we’re not really sure what we should do,” what the approach
was. I remember talking to Fred, like, “What am I supposed to do?” You know,
“Do we call [the coast?], do they have a manual? I mean, how does this --”
Anyway, we didn’t really get any instructions, but I went [00:43:00] to AMP. And,
at this time, PUSH had made a big issue about there being --

22

�JJ:

Operation (inaudible) PUSH?

WR:

Operation P--

JJ:

Jesse Jackson.

WR:

Wait, it wouldn’t have been Operation PUSH, it would’ve been Operation
Breadbasket.

JJ:

Okay, Operation Breadbasket.

WR:

Had made a big issue about having middle management and corporate America.
So, a lot of, like, Sears, and places like that, had community people. People that
were supposed to deal with the community. So, the community person that I’d
met for AMP, said he wanted to meet me in my office. He was the only person
that ever came to the Black Panther office, you know. It turned out that I sang at
his daughter’s funeral. I had no idea. You know? So, some things are by
happenstance. But it was his daughter that had drowned, and I had sung at
[00:44:00] her funeral. So he remembered me, I had no idea who he was. So,
we started talking and he was the first one that I had talked to that even took me
serious. And we went on his list. And he introduced me to other people. He
introduced me to Daryl Grisham at Parker House Sausage. He introduced me to
somebody over Pepsi-Cola, that we got him to pay another Sausage person, so
that I could just pick up the food. We tried to arrange stuff so that -- I preferred
not to take money directly, I would prefer to take the food, so, “You pay for this,
let me go pick it up.” And it was [Hyman Johnson?], it was this guy, that actually
introduced me to four or five other people that were [00:45:00] peers, and his
situation, that actually got me started on, “These are the people I need to

23

�approach, this is what I need to do.” You know, writing a letter, doing whatever I
needed to do, it was actually him that put me on to that, so that -- Let me see.
The barbecue guy, [he used to even?] call if I was late -- Argia B. Argia B Bar-BQ. Parker House Sausage, Metropolitan Sausage. There was a Star grocery
store over on the west side that -- They were just people that he introduced me
to, and then I followed up, and just kept doing what I was doing till I got to the
point, we were probably picking up, maybe, 4 or 500 dollars a week, worth of
food, and then just dropping it off at the breakfast program. You know, [00:46:00]
one or two of ’em, we could store it there. Others, like I said, I would pick up, I’d
leave it at St. Dorothy’s and then drop it off there. This was the first place we had
a breakfast program.
JJ:

At St. Dorothy’s?

WR:

No. Here. St. Dorothy’s, I’m saying, we had the stuff.

JJ:

Here? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

WR:

1512 South Pulaski, Better Boys Foundation.

JJ:

Oh, Better Boys Foundation. This (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

WR:

This was the first place we had a breakfast program. Yes.

JJ:

And so, are they doing this every week, they’re doing a donation every week, or
how is that --

WR:

Every week. I’m begging every week.

JJ:

You’re begging every week? But is it the same storeowners, or --?

WR:

Many of them, it was a matter of just managing it, at a certain point. Okay,
maybe some every other week, maybe some every week. Later on, there was a

24

�guy that -- [Sauk?]. Mortgage banking. I don’t even remember [00:47:00] where
he came from. I remember having a conversation with him, and then going down
to his office. I tried not to take money. I took money when money needed to be
taken, but he had arranged for me, I’d pick up 90 dozen eggs. And he sent me
somewhere to pick up 200 pounds of hamburger. That would be once a month.
So it depends on what the donation was -JJ:

So you had, like, a schedule from different people.

WR:

I had a schedule, and I just tried to work it that way, and keep extending it. But I
begged everybody. The real reality, that it took me a minute to process, was
when I approached Clement Stone. And I never even knew that I was talking to
Clement Stone.

JJ:

Clement Stone? Okay.

WR:

We had set up a meeting at [00:48:00] [Stone and Brandale?]. I was talking to
his guy --

JJ:

Who was Clement Stone? Briefly.

WR:

Clement Stone was a multimillionaire. Little short white guy with a real strange
mustache.

JJ:

McCormick Seminary was named after him, too. So, that seminary we took over.
But ahead, (inaudible).

WR:

I don’t know how he made his money. But I know that it was Stone and [Brale?] -

JJ:

But you met with him. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

WR:

I met -- well, yeah. Yeah. He was in the room.

25

�JJ:

For the -- okay. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

WR:

He was in the room, I was actually talking to his guy (overlapping dialogue;
inaudible). And, I think they deepened my commitment to do something for Black
folks. Because, when I met with them, I had, you know, I put the corporation
together. It was Free Services. And whoever I talked to always said, “This is an
arm of the Black Panther Party,” but, you know, blah blah blah blah. And,
[00:49:00] we were at a conference table, Clement Stone was sitting at one end,
he never said anything. I didn’t even realize it was him, until later, when I saw
him on an interview. And I’m like, “He was sitting there that whole time!”
Anyway, [Woodward?] said, “Now, we can see funding your program. The
problem here is that you are much too political.” Now, we’d been assisting youth
groups like the Vice Lords, over on the west side. We gave them 100,000
dollars.

JJ:

But you were too political. (laughs)

WR:

We gave them 100,000 dollars. And, at that time, the Vice Lords actually had set
up an office and were trying to do some stuff. He said, “Now, if --”

JJ:

(inaudible)

WR:

“Now, if you were into more gang activity, [00:50:00] extortion, or things like that,
that we could justify rehabilitating, we can fund your program from year to year.”
They offered 14 grand to fund the program, and I’m sitting here, like, just
dumbfounded. I don’t believe that this white guy just told me that if we go out
and extort or kill some Black folks, we can come back and get paid. Because
this is, you know, I’m just sitting here, and I said, “Would you say that again?”

26

�You know, and I went and sat out, couldn’t sit in the car ’cause I couldn’t drive, I
didn’t have a driver’s license. You know, I’m just dumbfounded, so -- “So, in
essence, you will fund my program if we get involved in some illegal activities.”
He said, “Yeah!” I was like -- (laughter) And I was just dumbfounded. I was
really dumbfounded, because it was such a, you know -- [00:51:00] A lot of times,
you know, you get folks blaming everybody for the condition, and, well, you
know, “If I had the opportunity,” or, “This guy is stopping me from this, this guy is
stopping me from that,” you’re kind of like, “Well, damn!” There’s a certain point
where everybody needs to take responsibility for certain things they need to do.
But then, you know, you sit back and, okay, he’s creating situations where you
got Blackstone Rangers, and then you have the Gangster Disciples. South Side,
southwest side. Then you got west side, Vice Lords. Okay, now, when they kill
each other, the last man standing gets the money. So now, you have gangs that
are fighting over white money. In order to be rehabilitated, [00:52:00] you got to
be the baddest gang, you got to be the last one standing. But for him to overtly
just say, “You know, if you were involved in more illegal activities --” I’m just
sitting here, like, “I don’t believe you just made this offer.” And I think it really
pushed me, if I had any doubt.
JJ:

So he wasn’t being facetious, he --

WR:

He wasn’t being facetious. He was being for real. And, for a minute, it almost
went over my head. Because that’s the other thing, too, is that, you know, this is
my first time being an adult. Okay, I’m out in the world. I’m not that far away
from -- I’m only 18! I’m not that far away from, you know, and I still have to go

27

�home and ask my mama for something, or else I won’t have nothing to eat. So
this is the real world, this is the real world of how we make money, how we keep
money, how we keep money away from other people, [00:53:00] or how we do
business. This is the real world that I’ve never experienced. And, to listen to
someone just say, you know, “This is our plan. We’ll rehabilitate you, but you got
to kill s-- you got to do some bad stuff.” And I’m sitting here like, “You know, you
never could have told me.” As other people had said, well, you realize that
sometimes white institutions set up situations where Black people can destroy
each other. And I went, “Y’all crazy.” But he’s telling me, you know, “You want
the money, this what you got to do.” And it brought some things into vision. To
see, not only that, but also I understood more with global economics, because
there’s some stuff that Teach was saying that was [00:54:00] over my head,
about how the British were playing the Indians against each other. And I
understood how the British and the Dutch were playing tribal wars against each
other. I didn’t understand that before, because nobody had ever said, “Here’s
tribal wars, do it.” And, you know, “We’ll pay you off.” So it gave me a whole
different perspective of what capitalism is, or, how it survives. Because it has to
survive by division. But somebody has to be making money. And I never
thought of people seeding money in order to create conflict. So, I mean, that
gave me a whole different perspective. All of a sudden, it’s like, you know, it’s
one of those moments of epiphany. It’s like, “Oh, okay. This is what the world is
fighting over.” Because even, [00:55:00] you know, with so many regimes in
Africa, that, even when you threw the Dutch out, or the French, or the English,

28

�you were still fighting over Western concepts. Because now, everybody got a
color TV, and a Cadillac. They don’t want to go back to the huts. So now, you’ve
got a people that are fighting over keeping this from, you know, and you have
natural tribal wars, that, you know, “This my land, this your land, and we’re gonna
fight over it till it can be --” But now, you’re fighting over Western values. And
the division that has been created, you know, to even think about something like
Rwanda. You know, with the Tutsis and the -- To even think about how long that
division had been planted. [00:56:00] How many years it took to develop
something like that. To think about how vicious the Dutch were. I guess, like I
said, it almost went over my head until I just had this epiphany, and I’m sitting
here, saying, “This man really said this.” So it created more vision, politically, to
even see the politics at work. And what it takes in order to maintain the stability
of capitalism, is to create unstability in many other spaces, so. That was my
epiphany.
JJ:

Okay, now -- My understanding -- but you didn’t write any proposals, to get
[money?].

WR:

No. No.

JJ:

Did you do that on purpose, or --? I mean, it would’ve been easier just to write
some [00:57:00] proposals --

WR:

Well, first off, I didn’t know about proposals. Okay, so I didn’t know. I think these
were the first people that presented a proposal to me. Now, I did write beg
letters. That’s different. I wrote beg letters. “We’re doing this, we’re doing this,
this is what we need, tell me where to pick it up.” Proposals, no.

29

�JJ:

Okay, the reason I say that, I thought that I -- you know, we had a breakfast
program, too, but we were trying to get as many businesses as possible to build
a base, also, there. Were you also -- I mean, we were learning from you, so, I
mean --

WR:

Well, you know, by the time you all came for information, I had more. Because,
when I first started, I didn’t even have a concept of what a proposal was. I
could’ve written one, but I didn’t know. You know, I just thought you had to do a
beg letter, show up, and somebody’d give you food. [00:58:00] So, it was a bitby-bit process, but I’d never got to the proposal stage.

JJ:

I mean, we didn’t write any proposals either. It was working very well, just going
from store to store. Ma-and-pa store to ma-and-pa store, yeah.

WR:

More community-based. And I guess, like, the other thing was to have a bank
account, and to have --

JJ:

But you weren’t thinking ma-and-pa stores, you were thinking --

WR:

Well, only because of my first introduction, which would have been back to
Hyman at AMP. You know, that was an accident in and of itself, that he would be
a kind of big shot at AMP and take me to other places like that. That was purely
by accident. It wasn’t something that I would have figured out. That I had figured
out. I might have figured it out later, but I didn’t figure it out then. So that was
basically at his behest, [00:59:00] and the other thing that he would do is that we
would go to AMPs in the city. He would go to the back, and just tear some labels
off stuff, and say, “This damaged. You need to give this to them. This
damaged.” So, how he set me up might have been to get merchandise that was

30

�damaged, or that was beyond its sell date, initially. And then after that, now with
the guy at Pepsi-Cola -- and because I never really took money-money, if at all
possible, I had them reinforce each other. There was another Black sausage
company called Metropolitan. Well, I had the guy at Pepsi-Cola pay them, so
that I could go there and pick up food. When we picked up food at any other
place, [01:00:00] if the opportunity presents itself, don’t give me anything, give it
to them, just let me go get the food. So, how they talked to each other, I don’t
know. But I found that it was easier and appeared more legitimate to them for
me not to -- I handled money, but I handled as little as possible. As little as
possible. Most of the time I was just going to pick up food. There’s a lot that we
did not get from neighborhood stores, because they were neighborhood stores,
and they were only gonna do so much. And we were picking up [centers?], but,
like I said, if it had not been for the very first guy that I talked to, I don’t think I
could have gotten on that road so quick.
MS:

Why did you not want to handle the money?

WR:

Well, first place, I didn’t want anybody asking me for money. Which would have
been folks in the [priory?]. And second off, my imagery is, if you see how far 50
[01:01:00] dollars can go, maybe you need to give up 100. Just let me have
product. Product is the most important thing that I can have. And, 50 dollars,
God, I remember somebody offered me 50 dollars, like, that’s not gonna do
anything, why don’t you give that guy 50 dollars and see how much product I can
get from that. Normally I could get more if I let them pay for it. That’s why. Plus,
it was easier for nobody to ask me for any money, you know, because

31

�sometimes when I came back to the office, you know, everybody, “You get
anything extra?” “I ain’t got no money.” So, we don’t have that issue, and then it
made accountability a lot easier, because the priest that I had that was the
treasurer, he was always nervous. Like I said, I pushed him beyond where he
wanted to be, but he was still a good guy. He was a good guy.
JJ:

When you were setting up, did you only have [01:02:00] the breakfast program in
one location, or --?

WR:

It started here. 1512 South Pulaski, and then we had one right down the street
from the office, at a church. I cannot remember the name of the church. Then
we had another one on the North Side, St. Dominic’s. Then we had one on the
South Side, that the [Old Troop?] -- there was a group of fellas called the Old
Troop, [Oba?], [Ade?], [Little Ide?], [Big Ide?], [Ogum?], and they were from the
projects, Ida B. Wells. They set up something at the fieldhouse, where we had a
breakfast program there. And then there was a breakfast program at a church,
which, I’m not the one that initiated where they were. People from the Party
would [01:03:00] go out and talk to folks. There was a church at 64th and
Harvard. We had a breakfast program there. And we had a breakfast program -I think the name of the other church might’ve been St. Andrews, I can’t
remember. I think there were two more that I can’t remember right this minute,
but, at the point that I was backing away because I had gotten pregnant and I
was about seven months pregnant, and they said I needed to sit down. I think I
was doing about five or six. And it was still just, picking up stuff, dropping ’em
off.

32

�JJ:

So you [supplied it all?], basically. So that’s why you were trying to get more
donations, where -- we just had one main program. Can you describe how the
programs ran?

WR:

[01:04:00] Well, let me see. Get there at five o’clock. Make sure pots and pans
are clean. We always had somebody on grits, somebody on meat, somebody on
eggs. Drop the stuff off. Spark the kitchen up, by seven o’clock, at that point, the
kids are coming in. Generally, the most important thing -- I guess it was two
things. The food and the cook. Generally, there was always one person at each
site that would actually be in charge of who’s gonna do what. And the kids came,
the kids came slowly, but bit by bit. There was one person at each site. I
remember [Ace?] was the one at the site over on the South Side. Because this
was the first, [01:05:00] we were all there. The duties just got split up of what
you had to do. Because, mostly, the men would be the one that would be
serving and greeting the kids. And we would be back in the kitchen. Normally, at
least three, four people in the kitchen. I still remember, we would get a ride from
the South Side. And it was O’Neil. O’Neil would pick up me, and --

JJ:

(overlapping dialogue; inaudible) the police -- the informant, the informant.

WR:

Right. Me and [Sam?] --

JJ:

The informant that set up the whole thing where --

WR:

Fred’s murder.

JJ:

Fred’s murder, yeah.

WR:

Right, right. But O’Neil was the one that would pick us up, because we were
south, pick us up and take us to one of the breakfast programs. And then I would

33

�be at the breakfast program, and from there, I would go to the office. Find
someone to drive me. And then be out in the street the rest of the day.
[01:06:00] Picking up, calling, doing whatever I needed to do. I had a South Side
place I would call from, and that would be at Sammy Rayner’s office. At the time,
he was an alderman. And his office would pretty much be the one I would work
from. Making calls, either there or else at the Panther office.
JJ:

Oh, he let you use your office, Sammy Rayner?

WR:

Yes. Sammy was a good guy.

JJ:

Okay. What about the kids? I know in ours, we had songs and [that?]. Did you
do any type of education with them, or? (inaudible) [the staff doing that?]?

WR:

I didn’t interact with the kids a lot.

JJ:

[Okay. What else?]?

WR:

But the kids, we didn’t do political education classes with kids. We did sing
songs. Okay, we would do like, “The revolution has come,” [01:07:00] you know,
they would do that and there was --

JJ:

“Time to pick up the gun,” that’s --

WR:

There you go.

JJ:

That’s political.

WR:

There you go.

JJ:

Isn’t that political? That’s --

WR:

Well --

JJ:

(inaudible) our nation, isn’t it?

34

�WR:

I think it could be all of the above, but when I say “no political education classes,”
the information wasn’t there yet.

JJ:

Okay.

WR:

You know, now, we would get, sometimes, the kids’ parents coming to political
education class, where you can get information. You know, just doing, singing
songs, I mean --

JJ:

So the parents were aware that their kids were singing [songs?]

WR:

Parents were aware. Some parents would walk their kids there.

JJ:

So they wanted (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

WR:

Right. ’Cause I didn’t look at that song any different than I did Motown. You
know? It’s kind of like, it’s just a song. (laughter) Okay? Now, at some point,
you need some depth. Because most of the kids that came were young kids. I
rarely saw big kids. I saw more kids, I’d say, from fourth grade and under.
Doesn’t mean that there were [01:08:00] no big kids, but most of the time, they
would be young kids. ’Cause, I think a lot of the big kids didn’t want to admit that
they didn’t have breakfast at home. And we were in the projects. We were in
poor neighborhoods. And also, for the west side, if I had an overflow of product
that we didn’t want to sit over the weekend, we would go into Rockwell Gardens
and give it away. Like, I remember one time, you know, some donations I didn’t
know what to do with. You know, if you get 200 loaves of bread, you just can’t sit
on it, for, you know, four or five days. So, whatever overflow we had, we would
give that away.

35

�JJ:

In some of the projects, I know we did that too. Okay so, there was some song,
the parents got involved --

WR:

Some parents walked their kids -- there’s a lot of parents that at least came to
see who we were and what we did. [01:09:00] Okay? And, for some parents, it
made them come because we had a South Side office, who would come and sit
in on some classes. The political education classes were, in many ways,
particularly if Teach was teaching, they were over a lot of people’s heads.
Because I had a lot of people say, “I could care less about who Frantz Fanon is.
Or who Marx and Lenin is. But if y’all are doing this to help us out, we want to be
a part of it.” So, in some ways, you know, some of the intellectual classes kind of
turned people away, because everybody wasn’t there yet. But the actual doing
what you do, is entirely different, and I think the party had to move beyond
[01:10:00] Teach, and some other folks started teaching classes, maybe, that
could relate more to the community, because I remember several people, you
know, writing stuff down, some people, “What kind of shit is this? What does this
mean? What is lumpenproletariat?” You know, and I’m like, “You don’t know?”
(laughter) You know. But that was a profundity to Teach. But he was a true
intellectual, and he was a committed intellectual. A lot of the stuff, we ended up
getting in our own way, and realizing that we needed to break it down, because
we were not a lumpenproletariat. We were the ghetto. It’s the same thing, but
nonetheless, somebody needs to understand what you’re saying. I know I had to
correct a lot of that. And talk to folks --

JJ:

So you called lumpenproletariat the ghetto.

36

�WR:

Pretty much. It’s poor folks.

JJ:

(overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Poor folks.

WR:

[01:11:00] Right, right.

JJ:

And so --

WR:

You know, when you talk about “class struggle,” you know, what is class
struggle? Well, in many ways, this is intellectual, but you have an elite that’s
trying to be sure that they maintain being an elite. You have working-class.
Well, what is working-class? What is middle-class? The things that we
considered middle-class really were not in the [realm?]. Making 30,000 dollars a
year does not make you middle-class. Making 50,000 dollars a year does not put
you in the elite. You know? It’s kind of like you need to define what owning the
means of production really means. Do we have factories? Are we producing
this? Is this within our grasp? Are we making decisions about embargoes and
taxes? I mean, let’s get real with exactly who we are. And it’s interesting, when
people call folk petite bourgeoisie, [01:12:00] what does that mean? Why, ’cause
you got something at Carson’s? So, there’s terminology that we needed to put in
the language of the neighbors.

JJ:

So why are we discussing this, then? The class struggle and all that, what was
the purpose of that?

WR:

Well, I think that was actually the whole basis of the Party. The Party was still
steeped in a Marxist-Leninist type of credo. But I think the basis was -- The basis
was racism. But we’re still talking about class. And I think --

JJ:

You guys were talking about power, too. You mentioned power.

37

�WR:

Well, but that’s what class is.

JJ:

Was that what -- okay. What do you --

WR:

There’s always somebody at the top.

JJ:

What do you mean, that’s what I’m trying to say.

WR:

[01:13:00] I guess, I’m thinking of a Spike Lee movie. School Daze. And in the
Spike Lee movie, you had the good-hair people, the bad-hair people, the
fraternities, the people that were not in the fraternities, you had -- this is all in a
college milieu. You had the people from the town, and the people from the
college, and all of these people separated themselves. Because the good-hair
people thought they were the shit. The bad-hair people thought they were the
shit. The light-skinned people, the dark-skinned people. The town people
thought that the college people were not speaking to them. The Kappa people
[01:14:00] thought the other people had no sense. So here you are, people
separating themselves into specific classes. And not looking at the bigger issue,
that there is a bigger issue. And there’s a lot of times that Black folks, in and of
themselves, create class. Part of it is color. Light skin versus dark skin versus in
the middle. Part of it money. You know, when we moved into Chatham, we
moved out of a certain neighborhood that was still struggling. But what people
didn’t see is those living in Chatham, everybody in my household was working.
Two people at the post office, one person doing day work. You know,
everybody’s scufflin’. But we are viewing class as in, but we’re not in the
projects. We’re one step up. And then the next step up, [01:15:00] maybe a
business owner. And then the next step up. But the creation of class, which is

38

�something that Marx talks about, creates the divisions, so that an elite can
maintain power. Because by us being divided or suspicious of each other, we
never look at, but all the money’s going up. That’s what I look at as class.
Everybody always said, “Power to the people,” but I always think it’s more
“People to the power”. But that’s what socialism is.
JJ:

More people to the power? What do you mean?

WR:

Right.

JJ:

What do you mean?

WR:

More people that control those things that define your livelihood.

JJ:

The power, okay.

WR:

Right. Okay? Power’s not always money. It’s ownership, it’s [01:16:00]
producing goods. Distributing goods. Power is synonymous with being able to
control the resources. That basically is what it is, is resources.

JJ:

So, who controls the resources?

WR:

You’re asking me?

JJ:

No, I’m asking you, is that what you’re saying, it’s about who controls the
resources?

WR:

Yes. Yes.

JJ:

Okay.

WR:

Yes.

JJ:

And so, now getting back to the ghetto, and the lumpen, why didn’t you mention
ghetto and lumpen before?

39

�WR:

I don’t know, it just hadn’t come up. Conversation has to flow. (laughter) I mean,
the conversation has to flow!

JJ:

[I’m starting with the ghetto?] --

WR:

Right, it needs to flow, and it just hadn’t come to that point in the river. Maybe it
was something that was understood.

JJ:

Okay. But you did mention that with pride, the ghetto, or something.

WR:

Yeah. I ain’t got a problem with it, I live in the ghetto. Right. Every day.

JJ:

[01:17:00] Okay. So you were talking about power to the ghetto, instead of
power -- I don’t know what you were saying. (laughter)

WR:

Now you’re confusing me.

JJ:

Okay, I’m confused.

WR:

Yes, sir.

JJ:

Okay. What are some of the community issues? What did you look at as
community issues? That the Panthers in Chicago were working on. Any specific
issues, or did you (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?

WR:

I think the medical clinic is probably one of the most industrious things that the
Party ever could’ve done. You know, to take the issue of healthcare out of
insurance, and out of those that make money, and just say, “Healthcare should
be a right.” The fact that they even brought sickle cell anemia [01:18:00] to the
forefront. To say, “This is not just something that happens here, this is
something that is worldwide. This is something that is -- and it’s obviously racerelated.” Just the whole issue of healthcare, because, I mean, now, 40, 50 years
later, when you look at the issue of healthcare being, you have people that have

40

�lost their homes on being sick. Because they can’t afford to pay. You have
insurance companies that are -- I mean, the rate of healthcare is unreal.
Healthcare should be a right. That’s my opinion. The thing about the breakfast
program, I think, wasn’t quite as up-front as the health clinic, but I think it’s a
point to say, [01:19:00] “Why should anybody be starving, in a country that has
plenty? Why can’t those resources be allocated so that there is no one that goes
hungry, and no one that goes without healthcare?” You know, these things
should be rights. The things that public aid instituted just with food stamps, and
that kind of stuff, why can’t people just walk in and get something to eat? Why
should anyone be hungry, with all of the resources that are available? And that
goes not -- you know, see, we can only address the urban issues. But when you
go, Appalachia, when you go down to some places in southern Illinois, when you
go to small towns, you know, we’re addressing an urban issue that is really a
people issue of [01:20:00] not allocating resources to assist those that need
them. Or, when you do assist those in need, then you make them feel like
they’re a drain on you. When it shouldn’t be. You know, when you go
downtown, you go behind restaurants, you see people throwing out food that
somebody could have been eating. And it was really -- The first time I went to
New York, this is much later, I was working on a paper for school. It was the first
time, and that had to have been close to 30 years ago, the first time that I had
ever seen homeless people waiting for public buildings to open up. ’Cause I had
to go to a library or something, and it was this whole line of homeless folks,
which, bit by bit, it’s started to become a reality in a lot of the urban situations,

41

�where they’re waiting for public [01:21:00] facilities to open up, so that they can
go in, and wash up, and sit around in the heat, and be there all day. Because
they had nothing else to do. And I don’t think anybody can tell me that homeless
people prefer to be homeless. You know? I don’t understand, in a land of plenty,
why resources are not allocated to say that nobody needs to live on the street.
Nobody needs to sub-exist. Nobody needs to not have medical attention if that’s
what’s required. So, I think that was one thing. The issue of the Party -JJ:

Was it on a national level, or local, too?

WR:

What?

JJ:

The health issue.

WR:

I would say that --

JJ:

Were you speaking nationally, or?

WR:

I would say nationally.

JJ:

Nationally, okay.

WR:

Yeah. Yeah.

JJ:

So at that time, the Panthers were already [01:22:00] talking about a health
issue.

WR:

Well --

JJ:

Today, [though?], it’s a big thing. With the presidential campaign and that. But
this was [done?] at that time, it was being discussed at that time.

WR:

Right.

JJ:

All right, what were you gonna say? [I didn’t?] --

WR:

I don’t know. We need to move on. I get old, I forget.

42

�JJ:

Okay, so what was the office like, I mean, you went to the Panther office on the
west side, or? There was one on the South Side, too, right?

WR:

Right. Now, I can’t go into depth on the office, because I was out on the street
more.

JJ:

(overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

MS:

Where were the offices? I don’t think we have that on the record yet, so if you
could [tell me?] --

WR:

2350 West Madison. I only came in the office to drop off stuff or to make phone
calls.

JJ:

What was the purpose of the office, I mean --?

WR:

Purpose of the office is, it’s a distribution point of people. Okay? You have
political education classes going on, I mean, [01:23:00] it’s where people are
meeting, calling, doing whatever they need to do. You have to have a focal point
of, where do you meet? Where do you get your marching orders? I mean, the
office was the office. You know, for me, all I needed to do was to make phone
calls, and then go out and beg some more. The office on the South Side was on
35th Street. It was about, either 223 or 225 East 35th Street. But the office was
a focal point to meet, to have classes, to have discussions, to have your
marching orders of what you needed to do, central place where the papers came,
another reason I didn’t go to the office, stay at the office, is because if they
caught me, I’d have to sell newspapers. (laughter) And I’d rather be -- and, you
know, when they caught me, I sold newspapers. If you didn’t, you know.
[01:24:00] But newspapers was also our only way of survival, ’cause I think you

43

�got a nickel off of each newspaper. So, I mean, it’s still a central point, you know,
everybody needs to have a central point to coalesce and define the business of
what you needed to do.
JJ:

What do you mean, “the only way of survival”? Now, you’re still a student, no?

WR:

No.

JJ:

Oh, you had dropped out, or you [had?] completed --

WR:

Oh, you talking about when I was in the Party?

JJ:

Yeah, when you were in the Party.

WR:

When I was in the Party, I dropped out. Right, I think I got through two
semesters of Circle, and I dropped out. I went back to school later. But, as far
as Circle was concerned, I flunked out.

JJ:

Did you [finish it?] later, or no?

WR:

Yes, I did. I went to Loyola. I went to school at night. So I ended up with a
master’s from Loyola. But I had a lot of issues there. Nothing like being an exPanther.

JJ:

What do you mean?

WR:

When I started working at Loyola, the [01:25:00] FBI came on campus, came to
the dean’s office, “Do you know who you have here?” But I put it on my
application. I don’t [need that lying on mine?].

JJ:

You put, what, Panther, in your --

WR:

No, it said, “Have you been involved -- What was your last job?” I was a Black
Panther, that’s what I did! (laughter) That’s what I did.

JJ:

So, [no wonder you’re?] --

44

�MS:

And what year was that?

WR:

It had to have been 1971, or ’72. It was one of those years.

JJ:

Yeah, that would make the FBI come. (laughs)

WR:

Well, I think they were coming anyway, I don’t know. But it’s like, because I was
working in a minority program, an EOP program, which, you know, that was
something else. It was EAP and EOP programs almost on every college campus
right after King got killed.

JJ:

Briefly, what is [that?]?

WR:

Educational Opportunity Program. At Circle, it was Educational Assistance
Program.

JJ:

What did that do?

WR:

It was supposed to take in [01:26:00] inner-city kids that perhaps would not have
been able to come through regular admissions, and give them an opportunity to
go to school.

JJ:

Okay, so, you were working doing that?

WR:

That was my first job, with an EOP program. And the dean’s office was mostly
white, but the guy that I was working with was Black. And, the thing about the
EOP program was it was supposed to -- we would have classes. I had classes
teaching people how to take notes. We’re taking Black kids out of high schools,
that all they had was general math. Maybe they don’t know how to write. We
had some that even were at a reading level below fifth grade. I have no idea how
they got through high school. I have no idea why they aspired to go to college.
But it’s not that they’re dumb, they just [01:27:00] have not had all of the

45

�educational tools that’s gonna put them in a situation, “Here we are at Loyola.” I
remember showing somebody how to take notes, they didn’t even have a
concept, that I’m supposed to listen to somebody and write down what they
saying? Why? It wasn’t that important. So, that’s another disaster at many
levels, and that is the educational system of moving some kids along that actually
could have done more, if they had [ever?] been challenged to be more. There’s
a lot of kids that we helped, there’s a lot of kids that we couldn’t save. Because
just being on a college campus, at a college level, with other college students,
and not being prepared. [01:28:00] You know. Like I said, we had some kids
that weren’t even past fifth grade reading level. Which, even if they didn’t get the
math, if you can read, you can pretty much get through anything. If you can’t
read, you’re at a disadvantage immediately. So, that was an EAP program at
Circle, which I was aware of it, and tried to help some of the folks there. Which
was another thing that, you know, you’re looking at kids that don’t have a clue.
They only have a dream. And there was no supportive stuff in place to help them
get through. So, in ’68, there was, like -- (audio cuts) The EAP program there
took over 1,000 kids, [01:29:00] because all of the colleges were doing this. King
got killed, our kids aren’t getting educated, blah blah blah blah. Within three
semesters, there were only 120 left. I flunked out too. And I could have done the
work. I can imagine how difficult it was for somebody not to have had enough
exposure to be able to do the work. And this was happening in many situations
until, by the time I started working at Loyola, I think they had more supplemental
classes in place. That they would start assisting and walking the kids through

46

�what they needed to do to survive in school. Because, it wasn’t no joke. You
know, you can’t write a paper, saying, “I agree with you. [01:30:00] What else do
I need to say?” That’s not a paper. So.
JJ:

So, some lessons are, the supplemental, I mean, for those kids. You’re saying
that the more supplemental programs, they’d assist them, or?

WR:

Right, right.

JJ:

[That?] assisted them?

WR:

This is beyond the Panthers. I mean, this is my life after the Panth--

JJ:

(overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

WR:

Right. Supplemental programs, like teaching them how to take notes,
vocabulary, reading, that’s basically all that I worked with. Teaching them how to
read, teaching them vocabulary, teaching them how to take notes. Like I said, if
you get through those, you can almost do anything. If you can’t read, it’s a moot
issue. And a lot of the reading issues was vocabulary.

JJ:

Okay, so what were you studying there?

WR:

Poli sci and history.

JJ:

What is that? [01:31:00] Poli --

WR:

Political science and history.

JJ:

Oh, [sorry?], political science and history. And that’s what you got your master’s
in? I don’t know.

WR:

I got a master’s in urban studies. Like, public administration.

MS:

And what year did you get your master’s?

47

�WR:

It’s either ’77 or ’78, I don’t remember what -- I graduated in ’75, so I got the
master’s in ’77.

JJ:

Do you have any more follow-up on that? ’Cause I’m not even familiar with that.
(laughs)

MS:

With urban studies [and public?] administration?

JJ:

With the master’s, I don’t know what that -- But --

WR:

It’s just school. I mean, I liked school, so it was not a bad environment to be in.
You know, I liked school. Everybody has some things that, you know, I was good
at school. That’s all. [01:32:00] And, I guess in every situation that you’re in, you
began to see the politics of it. The elitism of it. You know, those that are here,
those that are here. Actually, David Protess was one of my instructors. He’s the
one that was at Northwestern with the wrongful conviction. I think it was his class
that actually did some, you know -- I had some good instructors, and then, you
know, you just have the regular, you know, white guy with a doctorate, just doing
what he does. Trying not to go too far out the box. These are the things we
teach, and if you don’t know it, it’s not my fault.

JJ:

Now, you mentioned that the FBI [01:33:00] came to the campus. That’s what
they call “repression,” right? So, what kind of repression was the Panthers in
Chicago under? Could you describe that a little more?

WR:

It’s hard to describe it, because it became a natural way that we were
functioning. But we were harassed, we were stopped, we were searched. We
were constantly being arrested for very simple things. I remember, there was a

48

�guy that was running for alderman on the Gold Coast. His name was John -Can’t think of his last name.
MS:

Sorry, I’m gonna pause for one se-- (audio cuts)

WR:

He was running for alderman, and this had to have been the first part of
[01:34:00] 1969. It must have been around January or February or something
like that. I’ll think of his last name, I just can’t think of it. Anyway, he’s running
for alderman on the North Side, which encompasses Cabrini, but also the Gold
Coast. John Stevens, that was his name.

JJ:

Oh, John Stevens, yeah.

WR:

And he came to us to ask us to be poll watchers. So, you know, everybody put
on their, you know, little black beret and our combat boots, and we’d go -- I’d
never seen anything like this before. And I’d never really been a part of the socalled “political system,” ’cause I’d just gotten old enough to vote. We were pollwatching. And, here we are in Cabrini. We saw big white guys, Irish guys,
getting out [01:35:00] of limousines, coming into the polls, going behind the
curtain, telling people how to vote. They actually had a list. I’d never seen
anything like this before. I’ve never seen it since. They had a list where they
actually had those people that were on welfare, where, you know, “If you don’t
vote this way, we don’t know when your check is going to come.” You know,
“Blah blah blah blah blah, let me help you vote.” Any protest that was happening,
we got arrested, I got arrested twice. They took us out of the poll for interfering
with the process of voting. But these guys were coming in, I’m like, “I can’t
believe this! They are coming into the polls, going behind the curtain, showing

49

�people how to vote.” And the unfortunate thing is that you had so many people in
Cabrini, and this is after the fact, this is 10 or 15 years after the fact, that I
actually was reading some anthropology, [01:36:00] some history, and that kind
of stuff, where they were actually talking about the next Great Migration of a lot of
Black folks from the South into urban areas. Which probably would have picked
up a lot of folks from Robert Taylor, from Cabrini, and that kind of stuff. You have
a lot of people coming into the city, in an urban environment for the first time.
They were told, you know, “You don’t have a job, you need to go get on welfare,”
that kind of stuff. So you’ve got this going on, and then you’ve got guys that they
actually have a welfare list. And they’re telling these folks, who don’t have any
skills, you know, who are coming here trying to figure out, “How am I gonna live,
how am I gonna do --” We have you on our list. This is how you need to vote.
You couldn’t have told me that this would’ve happened in the city. I thought
maybe something like that, you know, maybe King went through that, [01:37:00]
maybe that happened in Montgomery. But, to actually, in 1969, to be in Chicago
and to see people come in and just say, “You are on the welfare list, you vote
wrong, we’re gonna put you off.” And then, when the police came, they took us.
Now, there was a big issue over at the church, which I had to -JJ:

Were you, like, kind of protesting them directly at that time?

WR:

We were poll watchers.

JJ:

Oh, you were poll wa--

WR:

We were supposed to say that, “This is inappropriate, you were doing blah blah
blah blah blah, we gonna call the police,” we call the police, and the police come

50

�and take us. Okay, we gonna call the Board of Elections. The Board of
Elections called the police, and the police come and take us. Over at St.
Dominic’s Church, my understanding, is that Fred was over there, and he got in
an argument with one of these big guys. And the guy pulled out a pistol.
JJ:

On Fred Hampton?

WR:

On Fred. This was the [01:38:00] voting process. And the police came and took
Fred away. You know, “You are impeding in the voting process,” you know, what
do you call it when you’re creating a ruckus? And --

JJ:

Mob action, or something?

MS:

Disturbing the peace.

JJ:

Disturbing the peace, yeah.

WR:

Disturbing the peace, and something else. You know, they might have held Fred
long, they didn’t hold us long, they just took us to the police station to take us out
of that situation. And then when we came back, it was the same thing, and I, you
know, I’m saying I saw limousines drive up! They blocked the street, got out of
limousines, came into the voting place, and said, called off names, “You are
here, you are here, you are here. If you want to keep your, then you better vote
this way.” And I’m like --

JJ:

I mean, they said this out loud --?

WR:

Yes! Yes!

JJ:

They didn’t say it quietly to them, they said (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

WR:

No, ain’t no whispers. Ain’t no whispers. I’d never seen anything like that before.

JJ:

And then --

51

�WR:

[01:39:00] I’m not sure if it could function -- Well, I guess, you know, like, for the
projects, it probably functions well, because you got people in a contained
environment, and you can go right there and they just call names down.

JJ:

And then they can lose their house, their apartment, at the projects. I mean,
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

WR:

Well, mostly what I heard was, they might lose their welfare check. Now, I don’t
know, that could have been a threat too. That’s not what I heard. What I heard
is, “You are on the list and you could lose your welfare check.”

JJ:

And you got arrested, do you remember what you were charged with, or?

WR:

We were never charged with anything, we were just pulled out of the situation,
taken to the police station, and we have to sit around until somebody said, “Okay,
you can go.” And then we went back, and we got arrested again. Until the end
of the day, when the voting process was over, and this was the voting process.
I’m like, “Oh my goodness!”

JJ:

Who was the other [01:40:00] candidate, do you remember, or?

WR:

I do not remember. Obviously, he’s the one who won.

JJ:

Yeah. (laughter) He’s --

WR:

Obviously.

JJ:

He was with the machine.

WR:

He’s the one that won, and this was with the old Daley. But it was John Stevens
who was running.

JJ:

Oh, the old Daley.

WR:

Yeah.

52

�JJ:

Yeah. [Old American?].

WR:

It was John Stevens that was running. And I think he probably maintained a
livelihood as an activist, pretty much, so. But that left an indelible mark, too,
about racism, just how deep it goes. And then about classism, and that is what
people do to maintain power. And it’s scary. It’s scary that [almost is?], you
know, that’s an instance of repression, but I think that we thought, if we were in
enough situations where [01:41:00] people would see the contradictions, and the
realness of not only what they don’t have, but what they should have, that it
would make a difference. At the same time, I think youth got in the way.
Because, in many ways, I don’t think we were showing people something they
hadn’t seen. Because I think about the many things that my parents might have
protected me from. It’s not like -- Racism wasn’t a secret. You know, you live
with it. And in many ways, parents would put themselves in front of you as often
as possible. So, you know, there’s a thing of youth, that we’re saying, “Well, we
just wanna show you how bad it is.” It’s kind of like, “Wait a minute, there’s a lot
of folks out here that know how bad it is.” But the next point is, can you stand
[01:42:00] up to it? And push it back. And that was the reality, is that we just
kept standing. So, at that point, you know, the police had to push back. They
had more firepower. They had to push back, because we didn’t step back, as a
lot of our parents might have stepped back, we weren’t stepping back. But we
weren’t meeting them in firepower, we’re meeting them in moral power. And, you
know, the reality is, like I said, I don’t think that we exposed things that our
parents were not aware of. I think that that was what they were trying to keep us

53

�from. So. But yes, you know, there was unfairness, there was repression, there
was -JJ:

What other sorts of repression? [That was a?] --

WR:

[01:43:00] I’m not sure we’re getting that, [either?], I mean, repression is to bleed
your resources.

JJ:

Okay. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

WR:

Or to physically abuse you. I don’t know any other type of repression. You
know, and --

JJ:

I think I missed that. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

WR:

And bleeding our resources is what they were doing.

JJ:

[And they’re?] misusing their [word, obviously, or?]?

WR:

[What?]?

JJ:

(coughing, inaudible) I mean, you know, what I meant was arrest. What other
reasons (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

WR:

Right, well, and see, arrest, to me, is bleeding your resources. Because --

JJ:

Okay. [That’s what you’re?] (inaudible)?

WR:

Right. That’s what I mean by constantly arresting people. Here we are, calling
for money to get out of jail. Okay, they bleed your resources that you could have
done something else with. And then, the physical abuse. Although they didn’t
beat everybody up, you didn’t have to. You know, a lot of it is just bleeding
[your?] resources.

JJ:

I meant harassment, [I got?] harassment in between [the two?]. So (overlapping
dialogue; inaudible)

54

�WR:

Yeah. There’s harassment, you know, there’s, “I know who you are, I know what
you do, I’m watching you.” I was --

JJ:

[01:44:00] That’s what I mean, more like harassment.

WR:

Right. I was picking up a bunch of food with somebody from the Young Patriots,
because Fred told me I needed to ride around with them and show them what I
do. We had stuff that we had left in the car. We were on South Chicago. We
got out the car to go across the street, we were on our way to Rayner’s office for
me to make more calls, [and I get?] pickups. When we came out of the office,
they had broken into the car and taken the food out. And, you know, two white
guys with their little funny, funny hats on, waved at us as they passed, as we
were coming across the street. They’d just busted in the car and taken the food
out, and they just waved at us. But those things, we expected, so it was hard to
really, it’s like -- [01:45:00] It’s repression, but it was an expectation. Because
like I said, we had put ourselves in a situation where we would not back down.
And I think in many ways the police were trying to create a situation for us to
back down. And the other thing is that, you know, we’re still kids. So, I don’t
think that we were realizing that we shouldn’t have been arguing with the police.
We were supposed to be arguing with the president of the United States. Not the
police. Because they’re only tools. You know, most of them didn’t have the
education we had. They didn’t even know what, they were just doing marching
orders. And the unfortunate thing is that we didn’t get past that. Because they
were the frontline of the ruling class. So, the police began to make it personal
when it wasn’t personal, it was political. You know, it’s [01:46:00] the way the

55

�country is run, it’s the system of capitalism. It’s the whole thing of racism, it’s all
of these things. But they’re the frontline that are pushing us back. And they
weren’t really the enemy. It was so many more things that were the enemy, and
somehow we got caught out, so that some police were taking it personal. And
some Panthers were taking it personal, and it’s kind of like, you know, these guys
are gonna go home to a family and scuffle the same way that we are. But you’ve
got somebody that owns a corporation that’s going to cut off 5,000 jobs
tomorrow. That’s who the enemy is. You’ve got somebody that owns a
corporation, McDonald’s, that is gonna push the issue for the war to continue in
Vietnam. [01:47:00] You’ve got somebody that owns a corporation that is global.
They’re trying to set up, that’s who the enemy is, and it’s trying -- but the thing
about it is that we can’t get to the real deal, because of the little deal. So, you
know -JJ:

This is your personal opinion, or has that been discussed among some of the
Panthers after that?

WR:

This was a discussion. I mean, this was a discussion, this is all part of
colonialism. This is all part of classism. This is all part of the lumpenproletariat
versus the elite. This is all part of that picture. But I’m saying it was reaching the
point that where it was becoming personal between police and Panthers. And
that was not it. What the guy said is, “We were too political.” You know, this is
educating ourselves to see [01:48:00] the whole big picture instead of just looking
at the bush. But, that’s not to say the police weren’t repressive. And the
interesting thing is that the Afro-American Police League.

56

�JJ:

Patrolmen’s League, yeah?

WR:

Huh?

JJ:

Patrolmen’s League, or Police League, [whatever?].

WR:

Right, right. And I have since done a lot of things with Howard Saffold. I didn’t
know [Reggie?], Renault, that well, but I’ve since done a lot of things with
Howard Saffold over the years. And he was saying that even during the days of
the Panthers, that they were trying to refuse being put in situations to run tail on
the Panthers. He said, “These are just young brothers meeting trying to figure
out, how can we do it better? What else can I say?” Which was part of their
[01:49:00] issue too. But the other thing in talking about policemen was that, we
were not always defining them by color, we were defining them by mindset. You
know, when there’s those that they bought into it, you know, “These are bad
people, they are talking against the government, they are talking about
socialism.” Or somebody else said, “Well, you know, if socialism means
reorganizing the resources, what’s wrong with that?” So. The police were
having a lot of internal struggles. Which was interesting, like I said, that time
period was a perfect storm of so many other things that were going on at the
same time. That it was kind of hard not to be about something. I’m kind of tired
of talking.

JJ:

Just, one more thing. (laughs) And then we’ll do some final thoughts. Just,
’cause you mentioned the Young Patriots, [01:50:00] and Fred, asking you to
take ’em along, to show ’em how you do the breakfast program because, is that
what you were trying to do, or?

57

�WR:

Yeah.

JJ:

Okay, so, how was the Rainbow Coalition received?

WR:

I think we all looked at it -- I can’t say “we all”. I looked at it as, “This is the way
the world should be.” I was a little tepid about --

JJ:

Was it a big thing, or, I mean, how was it?

WR:

It wasn’t a big thing. It was just the next step. Because, it’s really what all of the
stuff at PE classes, that’s all that it was pointing toward. You know, everything
was pointing toward, “We’re not looking at color, we’re looking at mindset. We’re
not looking at color, we're looking at capitalism. We’re not looking at color, we’re
looking at socialism.” So, it was all moving toward that to begin with. So it
[01:51:00] really wasn’t a big deal, it was kind of an expectation. I was a little
tepid at first, although I only had one or two interactions with the Young Patriots,
because I saw the Young Patriots on campus at Circle. And I don’t remember
them embracing Black folks. They were young, poor, white kids, Appalachian
whites, off the North Side, which I had never even been to the North Side. You
know, there’s a lot of times when you grow up that you’re kind of stuck in the
neighborhood that you’re in, ’cause that’s all you know. And at Circle, I think -but then I think everybody is kind of clannish, until they get in a situation that they
need to interact. So I had remembered seeing them at Circle. But I didn’t meet
any until I was in the Party. And then, when we talked, it’s like, “Oh, okay.” You
know, it’s that whole thing of, “Okay, [01:52:00] he’s human.” You know.

JJ:

[Did you see?] any Young Lords or anything, either?

WR:

Hmm?

58

�JJ:

Did you see any Young Lords or anything?

WR:

I’m saying, when I met them --

JJ:

Did you see any Young Lords?

WR:

I saw you all coming and going, I didn’t interact. I always remember the red
[tams?].

JJ:

They were purple. Purple, see, you didn’t remember --

WR:

I just remember the red tams.

JJ:

The purple tams.

WR:

Purple tams, I’m sorry.

JJ:

Oh, sorry. The red was the Blackstone Rangers, but, eh --

WR:

They were purple, okay.

JJ:

(overlapping dialogue; inaudible) purple.

WR:

I saw you coming and going. Most of the time, you all were meeting, like with
central staff, with Fred, with that kind of stuff. I didn’t have any personal
interaction, ’cause I was still --

JJ:

[But we?] weren’t at the office, we would just come to the office, I mean --

WR:

Right. ’Cause I was still getting in and out of the office, I’m trying not to sell no
newspapers, if at all possible. (laughter) And that’s the truth, if at all possible.

JJ:

Okay, but you knew that we had existed with the Rainbow Coalition and that.

WR:

I knew about that. We discussed it in PE classes. [01:53:00] Fred always talked
about the coalitions that he was building. I interacted a few times with Poison
and Bob Lee. Okay. And I knew that that was their particular function, was

59

�going out and seeing like-minded people, trying to bring folks together. Bob Lee
-JJ:

So that was their assignment, [that?] --?

WR:

That was what they did. That was what they did. You know who I’m talking
about.

JJ:

Oh, yeah, no --

WR:

Bob Lee?

JJ:

-- Poison and Bob Lee, yeah. So, okay, that was their assignment, but --

WR:

They were field marshals.

JJ:

Field marshals, right. Okay. (inaudible) But was that discussed in the Party --

WR:

It wasn’t discussed --

JJ:

-- the establishing of the Rainbow Coalition, or?

WR:

It wasn’t discussed blow-by-blow, it was discussed as a natural evolution of,
“This is what we need to [01:54:00] do in order to continue doing what we do.”
So, like I’m saying, it wasn’t anything unusual, it was a natural progression. That
we need to align ourselves with like-minded white folks, with like-minded Puerto
Ricans, with like-minded -- Because I didn’t even realize the issue of Puerto Rico,
I think, until later. That the issue of them not being a United States territory. But
we were aligning ourselves with like-minded people, mostly folks dealing with the
socialist platform. Because the whole thing was, we have to move beyond
racism and see that the economic system feeds racism in order to maintain
divisiveness. So, there we were. It wasn’t a big deal, it was what it should be.

60

�JJ:

So there was no -- [01:55:00] ’cause some people said, some people didn’t want
it to happen, or something like that, or --

WR:

I wasn’t aware of that.

JJ:

You weren’t aware of it, okay.

WR:

Right. And that’s not to say that it wasn’t, but it was not the marching order of
how we should act. That doesn’t mean, I mean, you know, somebody might
have seen you and said, “He’s ugly, I don’t like him.” Okay. That would have
been personal. But in regards to the politics, this is where we should be. This is
the natural place to be.

JJ:

Okay, all right. Any final thoughts? [And then we’re gonna?] --

WR:

No, I’ve been thinking a lot. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

JJ:

Okay, I appreciate it. Very much, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

WR:

I’ve been thinking a lot.

JJ:

I appreciate it --

WR:

I’m cool.

END OF VIDEO FILE

61

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Warren Wandrey
World War II
(1:23:31)
Background Information (00:40)
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Born November 9th 1924 in Chicago, Illinois. (00:43)
For the first 3 years of his life he lived in Chicago. In approx 1927 he and his family moved to
Berwyn, Illinois, where he attended high school. (00:50)
His father was a streetcar conductor in Chicago and a World War I veteran. (1:11)
During his service, his father was in France and the Argonne Forest. (2:09)
His mother was approx 18 years old when she was married. His father was approx 28. (3:14)
His father was eventually placed in a Mental Hospital, possibly due to Post Traumatic Stress
Disorder. (4:00)
Warren attended high school in Cicero and graduated in June of 1943. (5:55)
On his birthday in 1942, Warren was 18 and received his draft notice. He received a deferment
until July 1943 so that he could finish High school. (6:04)
Warren was called into the auditorium of his high school after Pearl Harbor so the students
could hear the Day of Infamy speech. (6:24)
He paid little attention to the events happening in Europe before Pearl Harbor. (8:32)
Warren received his draft notice so quickly that he never considered enlisting. (9:37)
He reported to the draft board in Chicago where he received a physical. Unlike other soldiers,
Warren was given a choice between Army, Air Force (Army Air Corps), and Navy. (11:05)
Warren picked the Navy because he didn’t want to go into the Army. (12:07)

Basic Training (12:30)
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He attended training at Great Lakes Naval Base. This training lasted 6 weeks. (12:33)
He was given problems at Great Lakes Naval Base due to a preexisting heart murmur. (14:00)
Warren was out of shape before basic training. (15:09)
He signed up to be a radioman in September of 1943 and was sent to radio school at Western
Michigan University. (15:37)
The men were taught typing and Morse code at radio school. (17:00)
Radio school lasted 3-4 months. He graduated in January of 1944. (17:49)
He was than assigned to a naval base in California. (18:30)
On March 5th 1944, Warren left from San Francisco to the South Pacific on the USS West Point.
(18:50)

Voyage to the Pacific (19:15)
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The voyage took 2 weeks. (19:18)
The men were given 2 meals a day and salt water showers. (20:06)
The ship landed in New Guinea (20:18)
The ship would zigzag during the day but at night would move on a straight course. (20:48)

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There were approx. 10,000 soldiers of all different military branches, aboard ship. (21:20)

Service in the Pacific (22:00)
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Warren was assigned to the MTB (Motor Torpedo Battalion). There were 10 radio operators.
Here the radio operators both received and sent messages. (22:11)
He was then placed on a PT boat tender. (23:22)
The boats never sank any others due to faulty torpedo performance. (25:17)
His ship was also tasked with intercepting Japanese as they traveled from island to island.
(24:54)
If a ship hit a reef, it would have to go in to be repaired. There was a rumor that ship captains hit
reefs on purpose if they were tired of being out at sea. (28:00)
The tender that Warren serviced on was the size of a destroyer escort. The ship had two 5-inch
guns and .50 caliber machine guns. (28:18)
The ship had movies on deck almost every night when available. (29:59)
Supplies for the ship came primarily from Australia. (30:28)
Fresh eggs were nice gifts. Most of the time the men used powdered eggs and milk. (31:49)
On thanksgiving and Christmas the men were given roast turkey, mashed potato and other
“good food” (32:22)
Warren was assigned to 4 different PT Tenders. His constantly having to change ships was very
annoying. (34:24)
As a result of his frustration, he asked to be transferred to the ship company. (35:00)
Every night Warren worked midnight to 4AM, from 8PM to Midnight or 4AM to 8AM(36:00)
One day Warren overslept as a result of his shift time. As a result he was to be put on report.
(37:15)
Finally the communications officers gave all the radio watch men a chance to catch up on sleep.
They were placed in a separate room and were not to be disturbed. (38:25)

The Invasion of the Philippines (40:57)
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The ship was stationed in New Guinea for 4 months (41:27)
On the 23rd of October, the ship was on its way to the Philippines. (42:43)
On October 24th, 29 PTs were ordered to take up position in 13 sections. These were intended to
be long range lookouts for the 7th Fleet. (44:25)
Several PTs damaged during invasion. (46:28)
One of the PTs hit had to be beached. (48:00)
Warren’s ship shot down 5 planes while in the Philippines. One plane did drop a bomb and
struck one of the PT boats. (49:00)
In spite the amount of military activity accoutering at this time (Late October 1944) Warren had
little knowledge of the state of battle. (50:20)
Because the PTs were mostly made of wood, they frequently needed patching. (52:40)
Between Warren's work and his sporadic sleep schedule he didn’t have much time or energy to
focus to long on the state of battle. (53:24)
All radio messages came in coded. (53:55)
Higher radio frequencies were used during the night and lower ones were used during the day.
(54:17)

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While communicating with a ship across harbor, Warren needed to relay the message back to
Pearl Harbor Hawaii then to the ship. (55:29)
For his first months on the PT tender, Warren was placed in the decoding room. This room was
approx. the size of a closet. (56:16)
Warren could decode 10 words a minute when he started. (57:10)

The Leyte Gulf (57:48)
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Traveled with approx. 100 other ships into Leyte Gulf. (58:00)
While traveling, Warren watched a Kamikaze pilot hit the ship in front of his own in the rudder.
Warren’s ship was never hit. (58:30)
Warren was in Leyte Gulf for 4 months (59:02)

Life in the Pacific (1:00:45)
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While in the Pacific Warren was let ashore. While ashore he made watercolor paintings of the
locations. (1:02:57)
While on shore in one location, the men were given 2 pints of beer. (1:03:44)
Warren rarely saw members of the local populations in the places he went ashore. (1:04:12)
In the Philippines, the people commonly begged the soldiers for food or clothing. (1:04:20)
Warren was rarely frightened while on duty. This was because his position in the radio room
often inhibited him from knowing exactly what was going on outside on the deck. (1:05:54)
Warren did see several Japanese planes. (1:07:33)
Often when copying code, Warren knew very little of what the code actually said. (1:09:05)
The captain would receive a message 1-2 hours after it was received by the ship due to the
coding process. (1:11:00)

End of the War and Life after Service (1:11:20)
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Warren was on watch in Borneo when he heard that the war was over in early August. To
celebrate the men fired guns into the air. (1:11:45)
On September 30th Warren’s tour ended. On October 25th Warren was placed on the USS Cape
Johnson. On November 2nd he arrived in Seattle, Washington. (1:14:15)
After arriving in the U.S., Warren still had 4 months left on his service. He was assigned to the
USS Crenshaw in Seattle. (1:14:46)
After several months, Warren was discharged on March 19th 1946 before the ship was set to
leave for Australia. (1:15:20)
Warren went on to complete 4 years of college in Illinois on the GI bill and was married in 1950.
(1:16:20)
Warren also had 2 daughters. (1:18:37)

Effects of Service (1:20:00)
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Because he was at a very impressionable age while he was in the military, it greatly influenced
him. (1:21:10)
Warren’s ship was never hit and he was safe so he found his experience enjoyable. (1:21:30)

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                <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives</text>
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                  <text>Division of Student Services provides programs, services, and environments that enhance the personal, social, and intellectual growth of undergraduate and graduate students at the University. Events including concerts were managed by the office of Student Life. Posters for music, speakers, poetry readings and other campuswide events are included. </text>
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                <text>War and Jimmy Witherspoon, February 14, 1973</text>
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                <text>&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/106"&gt;Student Services concerts, events, and posters files, (GV028-06)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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                  <text>Decorated Publishers' Bindings</text>
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                  <text>From the early 1870s to roughly 1930, many publishers issued their commercial book covers with a remarkable variety of graphic designs and illustrations. This sixty-year period saw many artists and designers contributing to this art form. While some can be identified from their style or initials, others remain unknown.</text>
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                    <text>Tomorrow morning at dawn.
These words were spoken by the German Colonel Hans Oster to Major Sas
the Netherlands ambassador to Germany . on May 9th 1940.
From November 1939 to May 1940 there had been other warnings, all
of whom proved to be false or pre~ature.
Now there were reports coming in about troop movements and about
increased raio communications from the border area's with Germany
and high alert messages went out to the army, navy and airforce.
At 3:55 A.M. May 10th 1940 German infatery and armored trains crossed
the border, airfields were being bombed, and for the first time
in military history the vertical factor entered into the picture:
paaatroopers descended right on the bridgeheads of all major river
crossings, and around The Hague, where the Queen's residence,
the Cabinet and the Congress were situated.
They landed on 3 small airports around The Hague and got support
from German panes which landed .. . . troops with light armor •
The city was heavily defended by anti-aircraft guns, but besides that
had only depot troops present who had been in military service
only 6 weeks. Some of their barracks were bombed.
Many casulaties resulted and this rude introduction to actaal warfare
dented the morale at first •./
Yet these troops, attacked on the soil of their country, being ably
led, ~surrounded the three airports with flanting movements,
and within 24 hours had retaken theseAairports and _~,pt~ed 1200
of the 2100 para I s who had jumped • I ' - ' ~ {tn ~ ~
The 1200 captured ~,were immediately ioaded in ships and sent to
'
Eng land •
/7t1/la '..J
~,,//;Iv. ~o-,,,-~f~ Many of the German heavy transport planes were lost because the soft
~ ~ - - - ~ " ' ~ soil could not carry them • They got s t u c k ~ and became
~~:f;:'~ ..,J.,1/,.)/o/ ...... easy targets for the :a attacking infantry J. Together with the heavy
~
casualties which the anti-airt raft guns inflicted, the German losses
i1(
of paanes_~d approximately 2,000 para's dead, wounded or captured
in 5 days of 11f,ing proved a substantial factor in the postponement
1
of the attack on England .d"vll'rJ~ .S£PT£/1'113£1?/ 1111.P &amp;tvt;t.lfrh'.s t&gt;u=t,tJE;rjtfiAJ.;,p Jtno,/1 11111~.
'
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'''it,
The paratroopers attack on the bridgeheads across the great rivers
,w
were alas su'oessf31l •
oft. '£ c.cul'R 111:s-r o;; llot-1.//,.,1&gt;
/4v1 "the planned timelimit~ 24 hours y e erman High Command as badly
miscalculated.
The northern attack towards de large enclosing dike which gave access
r 'l&gt;hr/lc#1G+!J vvr,,tzs to the entire western part of the country , was stopped in its tracks.
The attack in the south avross 'the Maas river with an armo11red train :; A-uJ
the train destroyed , but massive crossings in rubber boats regardless
of heavy losses succ&amp;:ied and after 3 days their match up with the para's
at the captured bridges in the west was accomplished.
French troops and artillery had to withdraw as their own frontline in the
east and the center was being rolled up by massive tank attack:ts •
On the 14th of May came the capitulation; after this became effective
and presumably out of spite I Rotterdam was Jnombed and its center put
to the torch.

r

�****

r

Had there be indications before the war { Yes Hitler had predicted all
in his book "Mein Kampf" rmy struggle 11 , in 1923 • But who believed this
maniac, in those turbulent times?
In 1938 the so called Kristall Nacht occur'ed in Germany. Jewiwsll businesses
were vandalized anddestroyed. After the war it became known that before the
war Hitler had ordered to be put to death 70,000 German folk, who were
elderly and debilled:.ated and were of no use to the fatherland.
A train from Berlin to Amsterdam stopped at customs at the Dutch border
~rL/1., JiAa/L:L :r town of Oldenzaal •. One. compartme:1t contained a small bapy r. It had been
~'- - - - -~s~en~t_b~a~c~k~ : regulation is reg~lation: no passport.
,
- -

_____
· -.:..!_

!!m:1~!:;r~~~de~ crossing a young Jewish couple with their child hadA wellkno
ou passport~• Frotp The Hague came the order: sent them back
th
wn newspaperman Piet Bakker happened to be present and advised
•
e young couple to throw a brick th
h
· d
arrested which would give him time t~o~ ; wint ow ' so that they could 13£
But the young man answered • .• W . 11 ry O ~e as¥Y"lum for them •
haven mich doch anstll.ndig
"~c~l nein , die Holl!lncb:iche BehSrdem
people have treated us well II
e
no, the Dutch pass control
Th
•
an~ ~=r~p:p~r~ :!;e~h;h:i~~;~~o~
:eg~~ngpar!~e~i
1 on tl_le phone,
publish your refusal 11
th
•
P II\Yvin poison and
moment I do n,-. "'et a:rl~v:~r t~ countryl, and wreck your career ' i.f'this
·
-J
ese peop e " • He got it •
Th~fall of 1940, within 6 months of the beginning of the occupation
brought the first measures against the Jews: they were dismissed from
federal, provincial and local government agencies.

beh!~:;; .~

,

/

~oi

***

H1~

~t / C'fJ./D

In the sunnner the first illegal press release "Vrij Nederland" "FRee
Netherlands" appeared , printed clandestinely as freedom of the press
r ~ ~"'"" n,..o had been canceled immediately after the capitulation • r
~
;/,.;AM"~ ~J,L,..t In the fall another__;O.ye•r appeared called the Geuzen • This name goes back
f ~ di,,;,~ into Dutch histof°"y"wffen Dutch nobility , marched into Brussels and handed
the Spanish governess a request to allow full freedom of relition.
This group included all Calvinists, Catholics, Lutheran's and Baptists.
The governess overwhelmed by their presence, trembled visibly and ger
advisor Barlaymont assured her in French that these people were no more than
Gueux , beggars • When the Resistance against the Spanish inquisition sprang
up in that year, it took this name on as an honored name.
The group was led by Bernard IJzerdraat , , Mil!: ,_,.~. That fall
all werdarrested, 43 of them. Whipped by the S.S. with metal tipped
whips, ~eaten with sticks, kicked, forced to stand up for 24 hours,
and locked in\9,, small chests folded up for a day • It did not help •
Every time theV'tfrought before the judges, they were silent.
When the guilty conviction was announced, one of the accusations read
that they represented half a million armed men. Did the Germans believe
this themselves ? . . f.sighteen drew the death sentence •
During this period an order was issued by Seyss Inquart that J e~ from now
on had to wear the yellww star of Divid on theim clothing .•
A spontaneous revoJ.t-, a general strike occurred, initiated and sp~urred
on by the dockworkers of Amsterdam • Today a statue of one of these men
stands in Amsterdam • During the 5 ;wears that Europe was under Hitler's heel
this was the only spontaneous uprising in any country. Only in 1944 was it
followed~ by the Jewish defense le~4ue uprising in the Warsaw ghetto.
so vividly related by Leon Uris in the book II Mile 18" •
I
-i
· The sentence was carried out outside The Hague on the Waalsdorper plane.
The date was March 13, 1941. The Nazi controlled Press reported it on
March 14.
In amsterdam Jan
pert
, a senior at the University of Amsterdam
Medical College, read it and inspired wrote this poem.
The eighteen dead.
It was reprod~ced on a large sca1e.
It proved to be for him also a premonition: active in the Resistance
he paid with his own life for our freedom.

7

--~-

�.tn.rtnctays in the .l:{oyal 1·am1.1y were always celebrated by flying the flag
with the orange lineyard; and on the Queen's birthday it had been the custom
to have a register of congratulations at the entrance of the Royal Palace
which many came to sign.
On June 29th, 1940 the first Royal birthday was commemorated, this time
of the Prince-Consort Bernhard.
Flags were raised everywhere, people wore the orange buttons, flowers were
placed at the nation's national monuments, and at the Palace the register
of congratulations drew untold people to sign. There were cro'Wds ever3{Where
and the demonstration of loyalty involved the entire country.
The occupation forces and especially the appointed Nazi governor Seyss .
Inquart were completely taken by surprise and furious. After that day
instrmttions were issued with the power of law taat all and any demonstrations
of loyalty to the House of G,-ange were henceforth forbidden for all times.
The National Youth organisation of which Jean and I had been members since
1932 had organized the demonstration, and received the high honor of becoming
the first organization to be outlawed. Two members of our National Board
were arrested as was the Chief Staff of the Netherlands' armed forces
General Winkelman, who also had come to sign the Pegtster and was cheered by
the crowd •
I had my teacher's degree, but our graduating class had been met by
the new rule that the number of pupils per classroom was raised from 25
to 45. The deepening ecomic crisis had -dev_J.stating results.
My dad was in military service , so I ~Af~ack~f thing , but having
these good people pay for my education, my books, and then not being
\~~t,(I,
able to earn anything , brought me half a year later to accept a modest
tro~wr]JZt&lt;ol'Poflrl.J'!'POSition with the city in evaluating the un-employed(and paying them
',-e-r their unemployment compensation weekly •
As an illustration: for 44 hours per week I was paid 25 bucks per month.
In 1941 this local service bureau was federalized. ~y would become clear
in the next year •
In the spring of 1942 the order came down that the district directors,
(a rank I had meanwhile attained), had to select unemployed men and issue
them over our own signature a travel order to go and work in the German
war industry , to free German men for the draft •
The German attack on Russia in June 19¼1 had not gone well and their
encounter with what the Russians call "General Winter" had brought enormous
losses.
I wrote our Department Head in The Hag-,,e as follows
read letter and comment.
We were stupefied to receive the following answer:
read arrswer. This was the naked evil of the Nazi system .No to conscience.
I received several offers, one very attractive to buy into an existing
accounting practice by a long term friend. I told him that I did not have
money. Just sign a note I was told, and on my signature I became a partner.
That spring also, the small number of Jews in our hometown of Alkmaar,
about 50 had been ordered to move to Amsterdam, where all Dutch jews were
concentrated. The Resistance di"d not trust these measures and began to
offer hiding places. This lead into another difficulty. Since 1941 every
one had to carry on his person a passbook with picture and fingerprints.
For jews who chose a hiding place, we had to provide these false passbooks
which also were the base for obtaining ration cards for the scarcer and
scarcer food supply. We obtained pass books from the deceased, reported
pass books lost in order to obtain new ones, but as the need increased,
we tried falsified copies and later on had to initiate raids on the c:i:tv
bureaus that issued them. New pass pictures had to be taken and rubber
stamps made to authenticate the falsifications.
The war had intensified: British Bomber Cormnand flew over every night.
Germany and Italy declared war on the u.s. in December 1941, but it was
not until January 1943 that American Air Forces took over the daylight
bombing of Germany • Crippled allied planes came down almost daily and
then it became a race between the Germans and us to get to those airmen
who had been able to parachute safely from their aircraft.
They too had to be furnished with a passbook and ration cards, after
destroying their own • ,
,
7T{G. cJ/l?iTifoJ,11tf,J -rf//5 .J/-'te.1µ'&lt;:; f'f(.t!IT6.J) AAI li--r Ce.i./..1-AIT lf/JJ1,v,
/ /) 1:,,1r/P yi,v R TuTA1.. or oo o /I /,ec- flll FT /"/tt.D"'1 /'JoT'I./ ~ i ()I! S ·

7

1,

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·II, _, 1t-1'if.JlfL
_

,

/

Our area took in many jews and in a homogenous population, we had behind
every Resistance man or woman dozens of families willing to take them in.
Even though after the war it became evident that we had only been able
to save~ 15,000 out of pre-war number of 150,000.
The penalties for hiding a jew or an Allied flier were severe; loss of
one's house and contents, and deportation to a Nazi Concentration camp.
To a certain extent this made our task harder, as some families shjed
away because of the risks. There was no blame to be attached to their
decision, the risks were great, and the enemy ruthless.
Our operational area so comfortably familiar to all of us, all below sea
level, had 2 canals for navigation, one from Amsterdam to Den Helder
the Navy base, and one from Alkmaar straight east to the city of Hoorn.
Besides that it is intersected by drainage canals of different width
with a soft muddy bottom.
History's lessons about the eighty war against Spain paid off again,
and this terrain proved often elusive to the enemy, especially at night.
Up to 1944 shallow draft boats, moved usually by punting-pole and ~ h~
by oars, could move freely through the wide countryside for the first
4 years of the war. In 1944 when the threat of invasion with the use
of paratroopers became imminent, the German Command ordered the water
levels to be set at 2 to 3 feet higher, which made it far more difficult
in daylight to operate freely, and increased night time operations.
It also flooded the lowest lying area's and the roads that cut through
them.
In the fall of 1943 the deportation of Jews had reached a peak.
Before 1943 they had been concentrated in Amsterdam, which city for the
first time in its history suffered the indignity of having a ghetto • urJ,-ff,',./
its borders, closed in by barbed wire.
The jewG'$jJ;.e moved by train to Westerbork, a village in the northeast
province of Drente, which camp was still reasonably run compared by what
we later learned about the camps in Poland, Austria and southern Germany.
It had for instance a camp orcll!stre where the jewish members of the Dutch
symphony played for their fellow jews and which were attended by the German
campstaff. From there they were put on trains to be resettled for work
elsewhere taey were told.
On a crisp sunny Mondaymorning I was walking to my office, and in passing
the manse, our minister Ds.Koolhaas called me in and told me that he had
received a phone call from his colleague in Rumpt, a village just south
of the Rhine river, where he had preached before coming here.
The call was urgent : 3 stars • A small monastery which was hiding jews
had been spotted by the Gestapo through treason. Some of the jews had
managed to escape, and 2 of them were hidden in the house of the school
princiJ:d{.. , but could not stay there because the Gestapo combed the entire
area. I notified the office staff that I would not be in that day and
walked over to Jacob Balder the carpenter , ,.a:K4, one of our commando's •
We discussed the situation~ crossing the Rhine river without a pass
was a severe risk, as the entire area south of it had been completely
closed off to contact from north of the river. This area lay as a proteetive girdle in front of The Germ4n Ruhr , the hub of its war industry •
Trains still crossed the Rhine, but were patrolled, as were the depots
south of the Rhine. We decided to take the train, buy 2 round trip tickets
to 1 s-Hert~genbosch and try to get off at Geldermalsen, south of the
Rhine, which is only 8 miles from the village of Rumpt where the 2 were hidden.
We had to change trains in Alkmaar and Amsterdam , and had bought 2 German
language newspapers as a cover. The train patrols did not bother us.

�c11v9 1{rt/P1V111/vs.

When we crossed the Rhine river our tension inc:#a.sed • Rlt/1-,'f"l{f-SS ilr A-Pt.llY\,
Immediately south of the river was the tiny depot of Culemborg , at which
the train stopped only momentarily. The next depot would be Geldermalsen,
also with a tiny depot.
When the train slowed down we opensd the window and looked ahead. Before
the small building only one sentry was walking up and down the platform.
To us he seemed bored stiff; his head was lowered as if he were counting
his steps. When the train stopped, his back was turned to us, and we
slipped out and hid behind the building. The train proceeded and a little
while later we noticed the sentry entering the building.
This gave us the oppatunity to reach the narrow road west in the direction
of Rumpt. After walking a little while a wagon drawn by two horses and
loaded with sacks of flourt. We asked for a ride and got to Rumpt easily •
We rang the bell at the schoolprinci~' s house , and gave the name of
our minister as introduction. The man was astonished that we had been
able to cross the Rhine at all •
In a room in the back of the house he introduced us to a young German
jewish couple, engaged to be married, visibly fearful of being caught.
We discussed the situation with the schoolprincip1.- and one of his colleagues
and decided that they would provide us with borrowed bicycles and that
we would leave in the dark for Geldermalsen P£~oT.
They fed us and gave us a bag of apples to take home.
The 2 teachers provided 4 bicycles, and were going with us to buy 2
one-way tickets for the jewish couple and after that bring the bicycles
back.
We arrived in the dark and told the couple to f: llow us closely.
We entered the almost empty train and found a compartment for 6.
At the window was seated in full uniform a member of the Dutah Nazi
Youth organization. We put the couple next to him and seated ourselves
opposite this fellow. If a patrol walked past us 1 he looked like a nice
cover to us . helped by the £act that the trains in wartime had only small
bluish bulbs which created an eerie shadowy atmosphere •
If trouble ensued, we were two against one.
Fortunately, this fellow 1 hand under his chin kept staring out of the
window until we reached Amsterdam. We left the train there for the
transfer and placed ourselves between the couple and the Nazi.
Before we could enter the train for Alkmaar and Heerhugowaard, we were
stopped and had to show that the bag we carried contained only apples.
They let us go •
The rest was uneventful after the tension south ~f the Rhine, and when
we arrived in Heerhugowaard, other commando's were waiting and guided
the couple to a safe house. They survived the war.

***

***

•

That winter we had an 15 year old jewish boy staying with us. He was a
very gifted young man.
In the early spring we had a great scare , as German troops were searching
for houses to take over for quarters.
As I wasn't home , :rey wife will tell that story •

***

On May 8, 1944, ~ weeks before the Allied landings inNormandy,
the Gestapo's bloody hand fell on me, and the effects on our family
were deeply adverse and longlasting.
e:ad •

�/

***
On December 11, 1944 I was staying with my parents within the city of
Alkmaar when the alarm was spread among the underground that on the 13th
a razzia would take place. This meant that men and boys between the ages
of 16 and 60 would be indiscrimantely arrested, marched off to the railway
station and transported to Germany, to work.
So on the next morning I started out to try to get out of the city.
Alkmaar is built on a ridge of sand slightly elevated from the surrounding
meadows, maybe a few feet high, but surrounded by waterland, a place
for mttlement.
The roads of access to the city are built on this sandy ridge.
The German military command had built 6 feet high walls, guarded by
a platoon of regular army troops.
I chose the eastside exit where the canal to Hoorn has a bridge beyond
which an old millhouse was standing along the canal with the wall just
beyond that. This wall then stretched from canal to canal with a small
stepping stone on either side, just above waterlevel, to allow people
to pass.
Walking le~S'UJ."elytowards the bridge I could see the mill house, the wall
and two sentries walking in front of i t . There were squadrons of airplanes
flying east towards Germany. Beyond the wall stretched my beloved West Frieslarut
with on the right side the canal with its six windmills, and the road
which stretched beyond the wall for a mile before turning at a crossroads
with some farms surrounded by trees •
I walked up to the wall; the two sentries faced me, crossed their rifles
in front of me, bayonets up.
11
Wllhin gehst du ? 11 Where are you going ?
11 Nach hause , Ich habe meinen Eltern besucht
11
11
11
Home , I have visited my parents
In silence they looked me over, and one soldier put his rifle down and
said : 11 Nah , geh 11 11 Well , go 11
While I climbed down to the waterlevel and negotiated the narrow step
around the wall, I realized keenly that for the next mile I would be
visible, water on either side of the road and flat meadows across the
water. I forced myself to continue walking at the same leasurely pace
until I could turn off behind the farms and their trees.
It was my longest mile.
The next day, German soldiers poured into the city of Alkmaar, closed
off streets, searched houses, and marched men and boys towards the
waiting trains , without being able to say good-bye or taking anything
with them.

***
In march we moved 700 commando troops into the city of Alkmaar, in small

* be

groups, helped by darkness, knowledge of the narrow streets and occupied
a few strategic houses. It would*6 weeks yet until VE-Day, but German
morale was sharply reduced and their wish for survival in what was already
a lost war, and being among a hostile population must have depressed them.
Our armaments were pitifully weak • All had a stengun and further we had
only 2 bren guns ( small machine gun)/ Our commander had serious doubt
a sustained attack upon the small German garrison, which had heavy machine
guns, bazookas and handgrenades a plenty, and were experienced soldiers.

***

2 days before VE day the Germans emptier the jails of political prisoners
loaded them in a ship, which they then had torpedoed just off the coast.

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Ester Maxine Warber
(00:59:10)
(00:14) What is your full name?
Ester Maxine Warber
(00:20) Where were you born?
Grand Haven Township, MI, near Grand Haven City
(00:30) What is your birth date?
March 21, 1923
(00:40) That is quite a few years ago, isn’t it Ester?
80 years ago.
(00:43) Isn’t that something. As you were growing up as a young girl, do your
remember any of the things that happened in grade school? Anything that stands
out good?
I started in pre-school but they said I was too small…too young to fight the snow drifts
and all so I started when I was six (6) years old in first grade. I missed two (2) years of
grade school. They shot me ahead so that I was eleven (11) years old and out of school
and the superintendent says you have to do something to keep her busy. I started high
school at age twelve (12).
(01:33) Can you recall any of your friends or any of the things you did besides study
in high school?
It was a very small school. We only had thirteen (13) kids in the school in Grand Haven
Township.
(01:51) In the high school?
Oh, in the high school we had a total of 168 graduating. It was the biggest class that had
gone through. I graduated from high school in 1940.
(02:07) As you graduated from high school, what were your plans? What did you
do then?

�Oh I wanted to be a nurse, I thought.
(02:20) You mentioned you looked forward to going to the lower rung bomber
plant, could you tell us about that?
I applied when I was nineteen (19) after having worked in Detroit. First of all, I worked
at the Farm Crest Bakery and then Sealtest Creamery. I then went to Willow Run when
they first started recruiting. Henry Ford owned that place. It is a huge place. The largest
it had ever been in the world or course. It was building big planes also. One a day came
off the line. I had to wait until I was nineteen (19) years old to work there. I worked
there a little over a year.
(03:15) What did you do at the bomber plant there?
I was on machines in the machine shop with Henry Ford’s old cronies who made his
bicycle with him.
(3:20) Did you ever meet Henry Ford?
He came there a lot because those were his friends in the machine shop.
(03:28) Can you tell us about anything of Henry’s friends that you remember?
They were as old as he was and that was quite an age. He might have been about 80
years old when he went around to various people on the machines and talked to them; he
was very friendly. He was very knowledgeable. He put me in the apprentice program up
on the loft at Willow. He didn’t personally do that; the supervisor did. But I learned
quite a bit about machines.
(04:15) What kind of machines did you learn about at that time?
I was mostly on the drill press and the sanding machines. I did a little bit of work just to
be doing it on the lath and the milling machine.
(04:28) As you continued to work at the bomber plant, what did you then discover,
like maybe…….?
I would see the planes as they would move down the line to the riveters one mile and at
the end of the line everyday with the plane coming off like an assembly line, there was a
with a “W.A.S.P” from England. She would take that plane and get acquainted with it
before she went through Canada and over to England to deliver it to the American pilots
who were loading the planes with bombs and going off to Europe. And we learned all of
that of course, about what was happening to our planes.
(05:30)Was that before Pearl Harbor?

�No, it was built about one (1) year after Pearl Harbor.
(05:47) Ester, do you recall the day of Pearl Harbor? What were you doing?
Yes. I was at Herman Kiefer Hospital looking through to the fourth floor window to a
little boy who had scarlet fever and his family were the ones I lived with in Detroit.
Forest and Grand River.
(06:12) After you worked at the bomber plant, you then enlisted in the WAVES?
I came out perfectly showing my little sister the place and told them I was quitting to go
into the WAVEs. But they didn’t take me for three (3) months. I didn’t realize that I
would have all that waiting to do from about the end of September until they finally took
me by train. It was the first train I had ever ridden. They took me to Hunter College in
New York City. It was very exciting, it really was. So in September I got my exam, my
physical exam and they got all of my history and had me all ready to go. They were very
busy at Hunter College. They only gave us four (4) weeks of basic training.
(07:12) Ester, do you remember what kind of train that was?
It was a Canadian train. We always moved when I was in the United States on Canadian
trains.
(07:28) Were they diesel engines?
Yeah, they were steam.
(07:34) Anything special happen on the train that went to New York?
Oh my friends all gave me a lot of joking about how I spent my time. They played cards
and I read the dictionary. I had left my two (2) classes in Ann Arbor and I had books that
I had been studying. They were English and History.
(08:03) You mentioned that you saw a poster that really triggered your thoughts to
join.
A beautiful poster. That was a glamorous poster. It was with the uniform then that I was
able to wear when I got to Hunter College. It was a Handmacher uniform. He was one
of the well known fashion designers. We had really good looking uniforms.
(08:44) As you went through basic at Hunter College, can you tell us any of your
recollections there?
I got off the train at New York Central station with my Pullman case and my high heels
and I walked 200 blocks to the reservoir out by Jerome Avenue, in that area, and we went
up six (6) stores. I was assigned to a room with about sixteen (16) girls on the sixth (6)

�floor. We would get there and then they would have us come down to assemble on the
street at parade rest and call off our names and then most of the time we had to go off to
some of the classrooms and get measured for uniforms and get some postcards, coast
guard shoe and our work outfit which was a “drop seat” in the uniform which we got rid
of as soon as we could petition and the people who could change our uniform and was
able to wear the men’s dungarees because we couldn’t stand that uniform; it was out of
style.
(10:24) Did you do physical exercises and things in basic training like the men did?
A lot of it was just running around the reservoir, and running up those six (6) flights of
stairs. It was all walk up. They locked up the elevators. Everybody walked everywhere.
We had classroom discussions and just anything that would give us exercise. We always
had to walk about a mile to get over to the dining room three (3) times a day. There was
a lot of walking.
(11:04) What did your basic training consist of?
Getting fitted for uniforms and an exam. I had that already in Detroit, but they did it all
over again. We trained as to what the Navy was all about; what the men were doing;
what the war needed; what kind of effort we might have to put forth and it was much
quicker than any group that had gone through. They always took maybe three months
and we had only four (4) weeks. And then we got on a Canadian train again and went out
of New York Central Station.
(11:48) And where did you go?
Oh we had to make a choice of what we wanted and I said I would like storekeeper and I
got aviation machinist mate school.
(12:00) As you went to aviation machinist school, where was that at?
It was at Norman, OK in the heart of the big state of Oklahoma. When we had got there,
there had been a tornado the night before. By the way it took us five (5) days of traveling
by day and being on sitting at night. They didn’t have us travel, they had to take supplies
on freight trains at night so we were a passenger train, old cattle cars by the way. When
we got there the tornado had really done a job on all the garbage cans and that is what we
did the first few days was clean up garbage all over the yards and the grounds.
(12:56) That was at Norman, OK?
Yes.
(12: 59) What location is that in relation to Tulsa, OK?

�It is further from Tulsa than the storekeepers school was by the way. It was eighteen (18)
miles out of Oklahoma City where they had all kinds of oil derricks everywhere in
Oklahoma.
(13:20) Could you describe a little bit what the terrain looked like? Could you smell
the oil?
In Oklahoma City, I think so. Where we were it was nice and clear out. Very spacious
ground. Lots of hangars. Old planes that had already served their usefulness in the war
effort or prior to the war. It was four (4) miles from North base where the boys were
training for pilot training. I had a nephew by age at the North base and he became a
fighter pilot going off the aircraft carriers. I saw him a few times. We had to go to North
base and fix tears in the yellow parcel training plane. We also had a lot of classroom
training, sitting and learning all about planes. We all went to auditoriums and learn to
identify planes. They would zoom them across the screen like in a moving theatre and
you had to tell on paper what plane that was. I wasn’t all the accurate in finding the right
label for the planes. I learned later on what they were because I actually worked on them
at Alameda, but while I was in training for six (6) months, I had the measles and the put
me in a dark room and wouldn’t let me do anything for two (2) weeks, and I was two (2)
weeks behind with my class so I took over the platoon leaders job for eight (8) other
people who had fallen behind in their classes. We marched to class. We had classed
until noon time and then stood in a big mess line to get fed, and then right back to the
classes then. In our last two (2) months of the six (6), we were out taking planes apart
and putting them back together again. Learning how an engine worked because it had to
work when they put it back together. Having the proper propeller. It couldn’t fly but it
had to have a live engine after we had torn it apart.
(15:58) So you became quite proficient at repairing airplane engines then?
Yeah
(16:05) What was the food like in the mess hall as you stood in line?
Beans every morning. A great big tray of beans. Sometimes it didn’t get very much use.
It was there after we finished our breakfast.
(16:22) What were your uniforms at that time then?
Some where along in early on, we got rid of those “drop seat” uniforms that didn’t do
anything glamorous and we got the men’s dungarees in their storekeepers shop and we
had captain parades inspections in the barracks on Saturday morning every Saturday
morning with competition with the other barracks. I understood there were men there
plus the W.A.V.E.S., about 20,000 people and as soon as we left, they had 20,000 more
in training. It was still kind of early on for training. The captain’s parade was very dusty
and we had to send them out to Oklahoma City every week, and we also had to buy any

�extra uniforms. They gave us two (2) uniforms basically. Beautiful beautiful uniforms as
I said.
(18:00) As you went to Norman, Oklahoma and the training and so on and the
airplanes there, tell me a little bit about what kinds of planes you worked on and the
engines that you rebuilt?
I graduated two (2) weeks later than any of my friends and buddies that I had trained with
and I was an aviation machinist rate, 2nd class, and then after I trained I went home for ten
(10) days and then straight away to St. Louis, MO, and out to Alameda, CA to an
assembly and repair plant where I went into the machine shop.
(18:51) What kind of train did take to Alameda, CA?
I think it might have been the Wolverine or the New York Central. It was not in cattle
cars but we did have plenty of cattle cars that were shipped around all over the United
States. We often got placed in those.
(19:20) What did you do in there; did they have chairs or anything?
Oh yeah, they were all fitted out with a dining car and not an easy feat. The seats faced
each other in the same like most of our passenger cars that had been around. I had never
been riding trains. I had never seen trains inside until I went into Hunter College in New
York City.
(19:55) Do you recall anything special about your trip from Oklahoma to
California?
I stayed overnight in St. Louis after my ten (10) days at home and lots of relatives to visit.
I got into Alameda, CA in probably four (4) or five (5) days and two (2) huge long
tunnels that kind of disturbed me. One was about a mile long they told me. You just
stayed forever inside the tunnel. It was dark. The train was all darkened. There wasn’t
anything too different about those.
(20:40) So there wasn’t anything different about the trip there? Did you have to
stop and wait until other trains went by?
Yes…not a whole lot. They had things planned better than the Amtrak does now. Now
computers are planning it all. It was human beings that seemed to do a very good job of
getting the trains where they belong on schedule, and on the side track letting one pass
the other one.
(21:11) These planes and engines that you worked on, were all Navy planes?
Yes they were.

�(21:18) What kind of planes?
They were all the basic fighter planes, Pratt Whitney engines and all the planes that I
worked on were the small fighter planes that were going out on the aircraft carriers. I
took a course to learn all the insides of the flying. I got my certificate in that and I think I
can’t really recall how long the course was. It was about three (3) months. I already
knew engines from out in Norman, Oklahoma. Those were the Rolls Royce engines from
Britain and pontoons of course. We learned everything about the plane. The entire
plane, the flight engineering deck. We didn’t just go through the engine. We sat in class
learning about the engine.
(22:28) Was this a Navy rebuilding area that you went to in California?
It was Navy. It was right outside our base. Part of the federal compound I think with all
the Eskimo huts. I went into an Eskimo hut and we had two (2) very smart young men
who taught us and it was a small class. I think there were about four (4) or maybe six (6)
of us in the class.
(23:10) As you did this rebuilding work on the engines, did you get to see the planes
themselves?
Yes. They would fly the used planes that had been in the Pacific to our runways and
there were Navy men on the line, I don’t think any of our girls were out there on the
airport area, but they would take the engine, strip it down and then they would use our
new parts. Our machine shop was making knew parts for the most part. We did some
liners on air ventilators and things that could be retrieved and reused. That is what I did
on the banding machine.
(24:09) How long were you there?
I had about a year and a half on the Alameda base and I also took a course to become
aviation machinist mate, first class, and so they said I had to wait until all the men had
gotten through and taken the course and wanted to move up. When the men moved up,
then I had had a chance. They told me that right away. So I waited and before I got out I
made First Class because I had passed the exam.
(24:53) How old were you?
I was 21 at the time, I think
(25:04) Were you there at the base when the war ended?
I was in Hawaii. I was six (6) months.
(25:18) How did you get from the repair base to Hawaii?

�I asked to go to Panama and they sent me to Hawaii and it was the first group that had
moved out. They had a group that had moved to Alaska, one to Bermuda, one to
Panama, and one to Hawaii. We went with what had been a private cruise ship and it
took us five (5) days rendezvousing every morning and traveling with merchant marines,
a whole lot of supply ships on their way to far off places in the Pacific. We were
stopping
in Hawaii. Oh these ships had already been loaded with women and children to go back
to Hawaii. When we got there, they still had all the fence around the beaches. They had
everything pretty well patrolled and guarded and they had our own submarines out in the
water all around the island. Course there had been no attacks enough times so they
thought they were safe to bring the civilian woman and children back.
(26:45) What did you do then in Hawaii?
They put me right on the line and I went out with an eighteen (18) year old who taught
me how to run a supply, 10 ½ ton truck, a big big truck that was a British. I steered it in
the same fashion we always used for our American cars, but you had to have four (4) way
stops and use a lot of care in going around to do anything like supplying the ship,
loading, but also because I was one of the petty officers, I worked in the administrative
office at the airport. We pushed the chiefs out of there and the guards took over as far as
our living quarters. I am sure it was discussing to all of the guys who had to move into
barracks and the girls took over. We all had single rooms then.
(28:07) What was your rank then?
I was aviation machinist mate, 2nd Class and so I had a little scooter to run around all over
the place including the airport area. I met people in all the missile stations. The missile
dump…not missile but whatever….
(28:44) The ammunition dump?
Yes, there you go. They gave me all the war bonds, the civilian and military boys had
them taken out of their pay which was very slim in those days, but they could always
make $18.75 on their war bonds and we still went all over the island getting acquainted
with all the fascinating things on the little bit of money that we had left. We never
missed on the war bonds. I always had the same people to give another one too every
month.
(29:30) So you were working in the office then pushing paper work?
I ran around all over. I took up…I didn’t sit in the office and do any typing or anything.
(29:40) While you were in Hawaii, did you do any rebuilding of engines and that
sort of thing?

�No it was supplying the planes. I helped with putting them…I took another course on
flight engineering which I was so proud because there were only two (2) of us in the
W.A.V.E.S that had ever done that at that time. Aviation Machinist Mate. I was so proud
I made several copies of my certificate and showed everybody. That was the highlight of
my time in the service and that was again two (2) young military men, sailors, who taught
the course eight (8) weeks and then I did some practice or training trips down to Motto’s
Inn on the Parker Vance on the big island for training trip.
(30:50) Did you get any chance at all to get any type of recreation?
Loads of USO dances on the Navy aircraft carriers that were parked out near Kenaway
Bay. I wasn’t in Pearl Harbor. I was immediately crossed over the to Petanioway Bay,
the big air base.
(32:26) Did you happen to have any opportunity to go to the USO dances and things
like that?
Only…we could go every Saturday night and Friday night. Sometimes we would like to
go to the Queens YMCA in Honolulu and to Sears Roebuck and to see all the spouting
pacific coming up through volcanic tubes. They had a lot of waterspouts and they were
fascinating. They had lookouts at these places. It took only a Sunday afternoon to go all
the way around Oahu, the major island where Honolulu is located, and they had pig
grocery stores. They called them Piggley Wiggley. They would have them all up and
down California and Seattle, WA.
(32:26) Did you happen to see any of the movie star entertainers and people like that
as you were there and went to the USO clubs?
In Alameda I saw a lot of them. They weren’t too far away from Los Angeles and
Hollywood and ex-President, Ronald Reagan. He was a lieutenant colonel in charge of
the USO entertainment and he shipped a lot of people out to Hawaii and further and some
times we were able to see them on the island. Most of the time they just had a little rest
stop and then went off to Australia or to the Philippines or Iwo Jima or wherever they
were going. Most of them went all the way out to dangerous zones for the USO, but we
saw a lot of people coming through getting rest and recreation, the boys, themselves.
They would come to the famous hotel on the island at Diamond Head. One of the
breakers is where we had the USO dances when we didn’t have then a board the ship.
They were always asking us to come out a board ship because they air craft carriers only
came in for refueling not really so much to be resupplying. They got that in the main
lands, but they had to stop in Hawaii so we had USO dances all the time..many many of
them. The women officers and we women officers had barracks that were a little bit
more elegant then our chief’s quarters. I did guard duty or night time duty up there and
telling the person on ship that their date was ready to go out to a restaurant. We had a lot
of good meals anywhere on the island. Many many places on the island.
(34:59) So the meals were a little better than the beans in basic training?

�Yeah…..the beans kind of are still used on Navy bases I understand and they always have
bean soup in the Senate in Washington DC. It is traditional for them to have beans for
breakfast and beans for supper.
(35:29) Do you remember where you were at on VJ Day?
I was on ten (10) hour days and they had four (4) days of blowing up ammunition dumps
and having an exciting and ecstatic kind of a time. They just really had not work getting
done. The people were signed up immediately for how many points they had and
whether they could leave and go back home to the main land and get out of the military.
The men were high priority. The WAVES were support people and stayed a little bit
longer. It wasn’t long and they had them loaded aboard planes and hospital ships. I went
in a hospital ship myself eventually, back to Los Angeles. The chief of my unit in the
machine area, I had not been working for him, a couple of my friends had, but he married
an Hawaiian girl and took her on a honeymoon for a month to the mainland so I got my
aviation machinist mate, 1st class, I just stepped into the job and there were very few
people to take care of anymore; they were all gone out of the service already in that
month. I took over the chief’s machine shop and there was nothing going on the carmax
so in the morning I would have to do all my chores and guard duty. We did have to
guard the fence. The boys were on one side of the fence, the girls inside our compound.
There was lots of good talk and lots of good coffee. We had to have guard duty. We also
guarded inside our barracks as well as the fence line. After I got all my duties done and
cleaning up there even though I was suppose to be in charge of practically no personnel
really, then I could go out to Nimitz beach to play volleyball and eat my meals out there.
Usually it was strawberries with waffles, or tuna fish with waffles but not Beans!!
(laughing)…something else. Anything went with waffles. That was a very nice month.
The boys were suppose to be in charge of taking care of the beach and cleaning it up
daily. They let me clean it up. I was never assigned to it. I love to go out there and run
the tractor and I sifted the sand through and cleaned up a lot of junk off the beach. There
are beautiful beaches in Hawaii.
(39:16) As you came back to the states, you said you came on a hospital ship?
It was the Tranquility; it had made many voyages back from the Pacific and all the places
like New Guinea and everywhere. I think they all stopped in Hawaii. There weren’t very
many people when I came back because I had been delayed a little bit. It took us about
five (5) days. The Tranquility had been made for the Canadian Oil Company. Canada
transferred it to the United States and it was fitted as a hospital ship. It was kind of a nice
ride. The weather was very good. I listed to radio music. By the way in Hawaii we had
Bob Crosby. He finally got out of the Philippines. That was Bing Crosby’s brother and
he had a wonderful band. He had been in Oklahoma, and when I got out to Hawaii there
he was for all the time that I was in Hawaii. Near the end he had to go. I don’t know
where he got located though further on in the Pacific I guess. We had all kinds of good
music. Those wonderful songs of WWII were played on the ship radio and I lay in the
sun on the deck. Didn’t do much of anything for five (5) days. I got into the presidio and

�I think I said Los Angeles, I went into the presidio of San Francisco. There were two (2)
of them. I left to go to Hawaii out of San Francisco and they kind of debriefed us for a
couple of days, we then took one of the cattle car trains to go to Great Lakes Illinois
where I was discharged.
(42:00) So you ended up being discharged in Great Lakes, IL?
February 8, 1946
(42:11) After you were discharged, what did you do?
I was taken by either the Wolverine or New England…not New England, it was New
York train from Great Lakes the very same day, February 8, to Ann Arbor and I
registered that day to finish my freshman, first semester, in the Great Lakes. They were
on quarters then, they were not semesters. It didn’t take them long to change from
quarters to semesters and I finished up my 156 credit hours and 3 ½ years and I went
summers on the GI bill and they paid all of our tuition by IBM card and we delivered
them to the administrative office. They put us pretty much on our own. My roommate
had been an “X” WAVE too that first year. She went steady real quick after she hit
campus and she and the guy she ended up marrying took off on what they called the
snowball expedition to Washington DC to congress to get us more money because we
were making sixty-five dollars ($65.00) a month to live on and they pushed it up to
eighty-five dollars ($85.00) a month…a month! A little bit less than what they get now a
days. You might say when I went into the military in the WAVES, I was getting the very
same pay that the men were. This was ninety-six dollars ($96.00) a month. So from the
very beginning I bought War bonds. I thought they were useful and they accumulated
very well for me.
There were no problems selling War bonds. The men from the Pacific coming off the
ships in Hawaii and Alameda and in the civic auditorium in San Francisco, they had
bonds. The civilians as well as the military, they all bought war bonds. I was proud of
my effort on that.
I also had the engine….safety effort…where I have to use the fire extinguisher on the
Pratt and Whitney reconstructed engine….we would…….it was a dangerous kind of
thing. I was scared to death while I was in that pit holding that fire extinguisher. I never
had a fire while I was in. Many of us had to take that duty. It was almost constant. I
think there was mostly the fire fighters and they were especially trained to be out on the
tomeck when they were firing up a plane to take off. That pit duty was isolated and
dangerous and I got through that.
(46:29) As you went back to college for 3 ½ years, what did you do after that?
I tried to get a job in one of the places in north Chicago TB hospital because they had lab
work training. I went into the basic sciences, but I had taken a little of this and that and it
didn’t look that much as if I was a lab tech so I went on
that summer and

�they had put me on unemployment role and tried to find a job in Muskegon for me on my
resume that had come out of the head office in Ann Arbor. So I took the summer duty on
the line over at Grosse Isle? and I took the exam for nursing school and went into nursing
school with the rest of my GI bill in Ann Arbor.
(47:41) So you became a nurse?
I took a year and a half of it, not quite a year…it was a year and a summer, and decided I
didn’t want to be a nurse so I got back and work in an OBGYN office for three (3) years,
four (4) years in Blue Cross Blue Shield, 600 Lafayette in Detroit, and I was a supervisor
in the subscriber’s interviewing and all my people that I were supervising would tell me
that they were going back to graduate school so I went back to graduate school at Wayne
State University and became a psychologist and while I was training at Wayne State I
worked in a cardiac specialists office. He was affiliated with Henry Ford Hospital. It
was very good experiences.
(48:45) Was Henry Ford still alive then?
No…no… I think he died right at the end of the war. He was a good age when he died. I
don’t remember something like 90 years old or something. He was a very personable
guy.
(49:04) What did you do at the Henry Ford Hospital then?
Well, I didn’t work at the Henry Ford Hospital, I worked in the Fisher Building in Detroit
in the cardiac specialist’s office, but he was affiliated with the women’s hospital and
taught the interns in the cardiac specialty. I did his notes all over. He kept me there for
twelve dollars ($12.00) a day. He was there from…….I had to come in at 8 o’clock and
he came in at 9 o’clock and stayed until 2 o’clock, but he had me working for twelve
dollars ($12.00) until 6 o’clock at night and doing all the typing of his notes for the
cardiac training for the medical students. That was a very good experience.
(50: 00) After there what did you do?
I was then hired by the city of Detroit in the Herman Kiefer Hospital as a psychologist. I
was on the president’s list for very good marks and extra special work with four (4) blind
students whom I read to. Oh yes, and I worked for Cord Hauser to estimate remarks
from all the union employees from the big car companies. He was doing a book. He was
a social service professor and he went out to Appleton, WI and left three (3) of us in his
office doing all this work for him. He was a very kindly old gentleman, and his son was
teaching a journalism course. I took that course. He was from Ann Arbor and worked at
Ann Arbor, his son. It was a good family to know.
(51:16) After doing that, what was your next experience?
I went in to the Peace Corps.

�(51:24) I was hoping we would get in to that.
I had a ham radio in Herman Kiefer Hospital where we received a Spanish
course that was being taught by the Henry Ford Foundation in the school right across the
street. The kids were third graders and we all chipped in and practice the Spanish along
with them and I waited quite a few months before the accepted me in the Peace Corps
and that was in a December date too when I finally went to Puerto Rico and trained for
four (4) months, I practiced a lot of Spanish and got a lot of training in how to conduct
ourselves in the South American countries and the Spanish culture…the local culture.
They sent me to Ecuador. I knew already when I was in training in Puerto Rico that I
would go to Ecuador. The Ecuadorian man who was accepting us, worked for the
national government of Ecuador came to our training base and we had some lectures from
him. A lot of ground proofing from men who came from the University of North
Carolina, he and his son, trained us in drown proofing and extra ability to swim and a lot
of class work and President Johnson and Lady Bird came down and graduated us after
four (4) months. We flew home for ten (10) days sort of military style and had to meet in
Miami the day before we were to get aboard a night flight into the mountain town of Tito
where all the embassy’s of many of the foreign governments were working and
occupying the place. We stayed there and met the diplomats and met the president of
Ecuador and then an eight (8) hour trip down the mountainside. I was assigned to
Guayaquil and I had been working in hospitals and doctors and they put me into a
healthcare program. We went around with 20,000 squatters or new people or natives who
had come flocking into Guayaquil. They were outside of the city and they had their own
Heffies who organized the communities under the chiefs or Heffies as they were labeled.
We went around to the homes in this 20,000 person nicely organized seaside
communities where I had twelve (12) kids, young women, teenagers who had been
trained for two (2) weeks in the Ecuadorian university and in the hospital to give syringe
shots, the dbt or diphtheria pertusses and tetanus vaccine and added to that at the last
minute the soul pox scratch test on the arm. We went around to all the household and
wherever they had a six (6) months to six (6) year old child, they had all of these kid
shots before starting school. It was all from world health organizations in Atlanta, GA. I
had Walt Disney health movies made in Mexico City, in Spanish, on what dirty things
flies were, and how to build a latrine, and many discussions on health care. I taught
home nursing afternoons the entire two (2) years. It was in the mornings that we went
around and gave the shots to people and the girls only worked half days, but I think we
hit the entire 20,000 at some time or another.
(57:28) How many years were you in the Peace Corps?
Just two (2) years. A girl from New Mexico who had been trained as a veterinarian took
over my job. I guess you can do the same things with animals, you know they have all
the same kind of training the vets do. They have to make sure that all of our animals are
safe and they certainly have very vigorous training. They are very knowledgeable, but I
did meet her and I had a Judy Mucha who was a famous swimmer on the Olympic team.

�Her mother had been to Tokyo and had metals from her swimming long before Judy was
born. Her two (2) uncles were famous football players so I thought I had a famous
person living with me the last six (6) months of my two (2) years.
(58:37) Well Ester you did have and you know it has been a real enjoyable time
talking to you. I don’t think your life time would fill just one hour, but probably
about fifty (50) hours worth of video tapes. It has been a fun time and we really
appreciate your talk and it has been so interesting.
(59:01) Thank you very much. It was a wonderful thing to have this happen to me in my
old age…age 80.
(59:10)

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Vietnam
Interviewee: Jack Ward

Length of Interview: 00:28:57
Background
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Born in Grand Rapids, Michigan, on December 14, 1949.
His father was an Army Air Corps veteran. He was a bombardier and navigation systems
tech on B-29 Super fortress. He served in WWII.
His mother would stay at home while his father was at war. They are both deceased now.
He has one sister, who is 5 years younger than him.
He graduated high school in June of 1968, from Kentwood High School.
He had a week off after high school before signing up for the draft. The next day he was
being sent off to Fort Wayne, Detroit for his physical and induction.
He entered the service by volunteering for the draft. It is considered to be enlistment. He
would sign up for two years.
He did not know that it was considered enlistment until he read it in Parade magazine.
He wanted to join either the Marines or the Army. He figured he had a better chance to
get into aviation if he joined the Army, so he did.

Training (3:15)
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After the physicals and inductions were completed, they were put on a bus for an allnight ride to Fort Knox, Kentucky.
When he got there, he would have to take a couple of tests for placement purposes. This
would take a couple of days.
He would then start his basic training with Company B-19-3.
After the completion of his basic training, he would be at the mercy of the Army to place
him where he would go next. Had he signed up for 3 years he would have got to choose
where he would go and what he would do for specialized training, but he had only signed
up for 2 years.
He expected to be put in the infantry, which he would have been fine with, but he ended
up being placed in the mechanical side of things and would work in repairing helicopters.
He found adapting to military life fairly easy. When he was in high school, he was told
what to do by his athletic coaches, so he knew how to follow orders.
He really liked his training. He really enjoyed the field training they had to do, like
learning how to shoot machine guns.

Active Duty (5:15)
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After training, he would depart from his home in Grand Rapids on December 12, 1968 to
Chicago, then by airplane to San Francisco, and then was placed in a cab to Oakland, CA.

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He would be housed in the Oakland Army Depot. He remembers the bunk beds there
were 6 or 7 high and he was on the very top. After about 3 or 4 days in Oakland they
were shipped out, at night, to Travis Air Force Base in the San Francisco area.
There he would be put on a commercial air liner and be flown to Hawaii. They would
only be there for 2 or 3 hours for refueling and would then go to Guam.
From Guam, it would be a non-stop flight to Bien Hoa, Vietnam. It would be north of
Saigon.
From Bien Hoa, he would be taken to the 89th Replacement Company. He was housed
there for about a week, until they figured out where they wanted him to go.
He remembers them telling him that he would probably end up in Pleiku, also known as
“Rocket City.”
He would then get on a cargo plane and be flown to Pleiku. He remembers landing there
and hearing all the things about it, but it turns out he was at an Air Force Base there.
There was a swimming pool, a PX, real building in construction. There were also paved
driveways and grass and flowers. He thought he had it made.
Unfortunately, the Army guys were sent to their camp, Camp Holloway, a few miles
away.
It took a while to get there and it was nothing like the Air Force Base at Pleiku.
He was never on the front line. In fact, there never really was a front line. The closest he
ever got to the front line was when he had to go out at night to serve in his defensive
positions on the perimeter on Camp Holloway.
Vietnam was not scary during the day, but at night it was. The Viet Cong, in his area
particularly would like to fight.
It was a series of flares, mortars, and rockets coming in. They had gunships out on the
perimeter trying to suppress them. This was happening pretty much all the time.
He did not see any heavy combat, as he was a mechanic. But when he did, he would
mostly fire his weapon into the tree line or at muzzle flashes.
It’s not like in the movies where they run out in the middle of a field and then get shot.
They were a lot smarter than that. Neither side would expose themselves needlessly.
He remembers the casualties he saw were things of a stupid nature (10:25)
For example, in the early morning they had taken “bloopers” which were M-79’s he
thinks, to a training camp. They were not gone an hour before they had to go back
because one of the instructors shot a grenade straight up in the air. It would come back
down and cause a lot of casualties.
He remembers having to pick them up and take the injured and dead to the hospital.
He would see a lot of his own casualties as well. A young man would join in 1969 as a
co-pilot, and after his first or second day in he would go out on a mission and come back
with an NVA 51 caliber round right through the head. There wasn’t much left of him.
Since he got out in January of 1970, he hasn’t heard from anyone who he served with.
It’s not like today where you go over in a company with a bunch of guys you know. You
go over by yourself and you come back by yourself. He learned to depend more on
himself more than other, so he did not make any lasting friends.
He would get in trouble while staying in touch with family and friends back home.
There was plenty of time to write letters back home and he did not have a girlfriend, so
he only wrote home to his family, which was his mom, dad and sister, and his grandma.

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He would be so tired after working 12-14 hour days and then have to work 2 hours on, 2
hours off in defensive positions; he would sometimes go a month and a half or two
months without writing a letter.
His mother or father, he could not remember which one, had contacted the Red Cross to
make sure that he was still alive because they hadn’t heard from him in so long.
He got called into his CO’s office and got it from him. He had to sit there and write a
letter to his family back home and had to promise his CO that he would write one letter a
week, which he did the rest of the way in.
He would bring some civilian clothes with him, though he did not know if he would ever
get the chance to wear them. He could not wear them off base, but in certain time he
could on base.
He would also bring his mitt and ball with him, along with a few other guys. He would
play catch 4 or 5 times a week. He would also shoot some hoops, as they had that
available to them too, though not anything like in the US. He would also jump rope for
fun as well.
They soldiers would also have PT exercises they had to do in order to stay in shape.
Everyone that was there, whether it was Marines or Army would get a 7-10 day R&amp;R.
(15:45)
There were 8-10 destinations that you could choose from to take your R&amp;R. The closer it
was to Vietnam, the sooner you could go. The farther it was, the longer you had to wait.
He was only interested in Sydney, Australia.
Most of the married men would go to Hawaii and meet up with their wives. Most of the
single guys would go to Bangkok or Japan because it was closer. He wanted to go to
Australia because he wanted to see what it was like.
He would have to wait 10 months before he took his R&amp;R. Between December 1968 and
the middle of October 1969, he had not had any time off. So he learned how to work
hard and not complain.
Eventually he would make it to Sydney and he would really enjoy his time there.
He would serve his 12 months, plus a 1 month extension and would leave in the middle
of the war.
When he got out he would go from Pleiku to Da Nang at a marine barracks there for a
couple of days before getting shipped on a commercial airliner to Japan. A lot of the
wounded soldiers would be shipped to Japan, so many of the men on the plane were in
pretty bad shape.
He would spend the night in Japan and then go home to Fort Lewis, Washington, where
he would be discharged from the Army, in the middle of January in 1970.

Post Duty (18:40)
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In 1973, when the conflict ended, he was fully civilianized and not thinking about the war
so much at all. All of the people he knew went in ’67-’69, when the heat of the war was
at its most. So he did not hear much about it.
He had received his training as an airline transport pilot and was working in Grand
Rapids as a pilot when he heard about the end of the combat in Vietnam.

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In 1975, when the war officially ended he had bought his first house, he had just got
married and was a chief pilot for an airline service.
When he left Fort Lewis, he had a non-stop flight to Chicago. When he got to Chicago,
he had just missed his flight back home to Grand Rapids so he had to spend the night in
the terminal building.
He didn’t care. He was so happy to be home and alive that he would have stood on his
head for 12 hours if they told him to.
At the time, the only way you could fly home for free is if you wore your uniform. You
could not put civilian clothes on and show them an Army pass and go for free.
While he was waiting for another flight to Grand Rapids, he would sit in the waiting
terminal. Each time he would sit by a group of people, they would leave five or so
minutes later. It didn’t bother him, because he was so happy to be home, but he did
notice that people did not want to sit by him.
When he got to Grand Rapids, his dad had come to the airport with an 8 mm camera but
he was so happy that his son was home that he couldn’t hold it steady. So the videos
were everywhere, it was pretty comical and they all got a good laugh out of it.
He was met by his mother, father, sister and his grandmother at the airport.
Adjusting to civilian life was rough at first.
He took a couple days to go see his friends, which was great.
He was eventually invited to a party down at Western by a girl named Sue Miller. She
was cute so he went.
He really stuck out like a sore thumb at this party, as he was tan and had no hair. It being
the middle of January, he really stuck out. And people knew where you had been. When
he got there, he had a run-in with a lady in the parking lot for a parking space, but that
was no big deal.
He was only at the party for about 10 minutes before he left. He could tell that besides
her, no one really wanted him there. It didn’t bother him. He knew he wasn’t welcome
there, so one he went. She would call the next day to apologize for her friends’ behavior.
(24:50).
A group of his friends would go to a sand dune in Grand Haven, just before the 4th of
July. They had hiked up the sand dunes and laid out some blankets to relax. When it got
dark, he had heard firecrackers that had been lit by another group of people nearby. It
sounded just like an AK-47 and he freaked out a little bit.
His friends, who had not served, got a good laugh out of it. He would laugh with them,
and that was the end of that.
He always felt that after the experience of serving, he felt he could handle anything.
Consequently, he doesn’t let things get him down and once in a while he would get in the
dumps, but it would be nothing compared to his time in the service.
What he learned from the service was to be self-sufficient. He would also learn that
training and education are important, but you need them both, or they mean nothing. He
would also learn out to deal with people that he would work with the rest of his life.

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