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                  <text>Robert H. Merrill photographs</text>
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                    <text>Wednesday, April 6, 2011

6:30 p.m.

Cook-DeWitt Auditorium - GVSU Allendale Campus
Co-sponsored by:
LGBT Resource Center, Division of Inclusion &amp; Equity, College of Education, and Team Against Bias

~

GRANDVALLEY

~

STATE UNIVERSITY.

SP LC

,1)

Southern Poverty Law Center
www.splcenter.org

If you need special accommodations, please contact the LGBT Resource Center at (616) 331-2530.

�</text>
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                  <text>Digitized from collections at the Rainbow Resource Center (formerly the Milton E. Ford LGBT Resource Center), Women and Gender Studies Department, Women's Commission, and  Gayle R. Davis Center for Women and Gender Equity.</text>
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Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. &#13;
&#13;
Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections.&#13;
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Other veterans and civilians
Interviewee name: Roosevelt Burch
Length of Interview: (00:55:35)
(00:20) Background Information







Roosevelt was born in Mound Bayou, Mississippi
He grew up in the delta area that was very rich and good for growing all kinds of crops
He was born on July 24, 1937, but his parents had split up during his mother’s pregnancy
Roosevelt’s father moved to Chicago and his mother remained in Mississippi
When Roosevelt was 9 years old, he moved with his older sister to live with their father
in Chicago
They stayed with their father for about a year and then moved into their mother’s new
house in Detroit

(14:05) School
 Roosevelt had gone through about the third grade while living in Mississippi
 He had gone to a private school and had to walk 2.5 miles there and back every day
 In Detroit Roosevelt went to Hutchison Intermediate school for grades 7-9 and then
moved on to Central high school
 He graduated from Central high school and won a scholarship for Michigan State
University
 The scholarship covered tuition, but not room and board and Roosevelt could not afford
to go there long
 He went to MSU for about 6 months and studied Spanish, but did not have enough
money to continue
 Roosevelt dropped out of college and moved back home with his mom
 He took a few civil service tests and ended up working for the USPS for 3 years in 1957
(23:20) United States Air Force
 Roosevelt enlisted in the Air Force in 1960
 He signed up in Detroit and then flew from Fort Wayne, MI to Lackland Air Force Base
in San Antonio, TX
 Roosevelt went through basic and advanced training in Texas
 He then went through technical school in Kansas
 After technical school, Roosevelt worked as a file clerk in Kansas
 He was only in the Air Force for 8 months before being discharged

�(31:25) After the Air Force
 Roosevelt began working at a wholesale record shop in Detroit
 He worked there for a year and then decided to move to New York City
 Roosevelt got a job at a VA hospital in Allan Park and worked there from 1973-1984
 He had started there as a file clerk and enjoyed his job, but eventually decided to quit
(39:50) Retirement
 After working at the VA hospital, Roosevelt was unemployed for a while
 He later got a job working for Michigan Blue Cross Blue Shield with Medicare
 Roosevelt worked there from 1984-2002 and then retired
 He moved back to Detroit and stayed with his mother for a while
 Roosevelt is now living in the Grand Rapids Home for Veterans

�</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans‟ History Project
Interviewee‟s Name: Frederick Burgess
Name of War: World War II
Length of Interview: (01:33:57)
(02:49) “Let‟s start with your name and where and when were you
born.”
(02:52) “Oh, my name is Fred Burguess, or Fredrick. We all ended up with a
nickname. I was born in 1926. I still live in the same house where I was born.”
(03:09) “And where is that house?”
(03:11) “Out on 100 Street just a half mile east of the 131 expressway.‟
(03:17) “In Grand Rapids, Michigan.”
(03:19) “No. Kent County.”
(03:21) “Kent County. Okay.”
(03:22) “I‟m just one mile north of the Kent County line. It‟s a buyer and
sender address.”
(03:25) “Ah. Okay. I was going to talk about your schooling but I think
that your early family life. You lived on a farm. And tell us about Tell
us about the number of your family and what was your family doing?”
(03:40) “Well, there were thirteen of us, five girls and eight boys. And of
course we were on the farm and everyone had their tasks. As the older ones got
old enough to work out they‟d pick up, even in their teens, in their early teens,
they‟d pick up a job here and there, but our main source of living came from the
farm.”
(04:11) “And what did you…”
(04:14) “We had dairy cattle and there was about six acres of muck and we
raised produce and my dad brought that into Grand Rapids to the wholesale
market.”
(04:29) “And what kind of foods were you growing?”

�(04:31) “Well, we, on the highland we‟d raise hay, and corn, oats and wheat.
Wheat was our cash crop on the highland but the rest was to feed our livestock.”
(04:43) “I see.”
(04:45) “And then on the muck why, we‟d raise some onions, celery, sweet
corn, and tomatoes and maybe some cabbage or whatever.”
(05:01) “Even during the depression and of course this was a difficult time for,
you know, American families.
(05:07) Did your family eat? I mean did you have problems with
eating or was it so poor that you went without?”
(05:15) “Oh, no. We never went without. The fact is my mother; she could
make a good meal out of most anything. We actually, she used to make
dandelion greens. We lived off the land. A lot of our meat came from wild
game. And we always butchered a couple of hogs, but, nope, we never went
hungry. We could have all we wanted but we‟d better eat, finish everything on
our plate.”
(05:52) “Which was good training for the fact that you actually got into
the navy, because they had those same kinds of requirements. You
didn‟t have as much of a problem as others, perhaps. What was your
early schooling like?”
(06:03) “Oh, I was in the one room school, out in the country school. Eight
grades. And we had to, of course, walk back and forth to school, three-quarters
of a mile but we enjoyed our schooling because not only were we a good sized
family, but a neighborhood was united. You know when you grew up with
another kid; he was just about like a brother or your sister. And so, and then
when we got through the eighth grade, I went into Kellogg into high school,
which was seven and a half miles from where we lived.”
(06:51) “How did you get to school?”
(06:53) “They had a bus. Yeah. They would. It was when the busses were
out. ”
(06:57) “Now. When you first entered high school, there was a
monumental event that happened, Pearl Harbor. Where were you and
what was your reaction to Pearl Harbor?”

�(07:13) “Well, it was, I was home. It was on a Sunday and I remember I was
just a kid yet and we were playing out in the yard but probably our usual
ballgame or so. And I heard about Pearl Harbor and aw, shoot, that little
country, they can‟t bother us, ya know, although we did have men over in
Europe already. But I was fourteen and the draft age was twenty-one at that
time and I thought it will never affect me.”
(07:47) “I know this is difficult to go that far back, especially when
you‟re fourteen. I remember when I was fourteen, I wasn‟t thinking
about world event and things like that but your family was affected
because you had older brothers. Was there any discussion in the
family that you can recall? About, well now what? What‟s going to
happen to the brothers now? Are they going to get drafted?”
(08:09) “Yeah, to a certain extent. But we weren‟t a family that worried about
things. We were a, I‟ll put it this way. We had a strong belief and we believed
that the Lord‟s will will be done.”
(08:32) “Okay. Do you remember when your older brother was
drafted?”
(08:40) Oh, yes. Yes.”
(08:43) Well what happened?””
(08:46) “We just a. Yeah, it‟s a sad time.”
(08:52) “But I had three of them that were drafted and I had a couple others
that were 4-F. One had had spinal meningitis and so his reflexes were just a
little bit slow. So they, they…you wouldn‟t know it, but he was 4-F.”
(09:03) “A lot of people don‟t realize that that was a tough thing to
hear. It was, you wanted to go and if you found out you couldn‟t, 4-F
was a very embarrassing thing.”
(09:13) “It was for some people, yes.”
(09:18) “Three older brothers, in many ways the backbone to this farm
are now gone. What effect did that have on your father and your
farm?”

�(09:28) “Well, they were already out of the farm, two of them had businesses
of their own. Two of them were married and one of them had a child. And then
one had a store and one had a station. And then they drafted both of those and
so another brother that just got out of high school took over the store to run it
for the one that was drafted then he got drafted, too.”
(10:03) “Now, you are getting through your high school years, you got
three brothers overseas, what were you thinking in terms of, I mean,
you said initially that you thought the war was going to be over with,
that it wasn‟t going to affect you, but as you got closer and closer to
your age of potential draft, uh, what were you experiencing, what were
you feeling? Were you going to join up? Were you going to be
drafted?”
(10:26) Well, I had a brother a year and a half older than I was, he stayed
home on the farm and I had the privilege of going on to school. He always said
when I got out of school that he was going to go in. I talked it over with my dad
and you know that wouldn‟t be fair. So, ah, at the end of my junior or towards
the end of my junior year, and uh, what, I loved high school sports but I gotta
walk seven and a half miles every night after practice because of gas rationing
we have no way of getting around. We couldn‟t take buses, even to our games.
So I got to thinking it over, three brothers in. Where do I belong? Then I
decided to join the naval. Well, one brother came home on furlough, the one
that had the store and he said, “Don‟t never get in the Army.” Ah, if I‟m not
going to get in the Army, I might just as well join the Navy. So that really is
when I decided to join the Navy. When I decided to join the Navy, of course,
Kip liked that, you know. He could conquer the world. Maybe I could help get
this war over.”
(12:19) “Ha!! That‟s great. So, how old were you when you actually
joined?”
(12:27) “Well when I signed up, I was seventeen.”
(12:32) “Okay. But they would let you finish high school?”
(12:36) “No.”
(12:37) “Oh.”
(12:45) “I wasn‟t inducted until I got out of that grade of school. In the
spring, after school was out before they took me in. See, I volunteered, but
then it takes a while before your number comes up.”

�(12:48) I see.
(12:50) “And, I, so I was actually through my junior year I went in.”
(12:55) “And what did you actually join? You didn‟t join the regular
Navy you joined…”
(12:59) “I joined the Naval Reserve.”
(13:02) Reserve. And why did you do that as opposed to just the
Navy?”
(13:05) Well, I didn‟t want to be a career military man so I and if you joined the
Navy, I could join the Naval Reserve. The Naval Reserve you could join for the
duration and six months. Where if you joined the regular navy, then you joined
for a
period of time and I believe it was three years at that time.
(13:31) “„Okay.”
(13:37) “Now it‟s back up to four years.”
(13:42) “Well, let me ask you this. If the war had not happened, what
were you planning to do?”
(13:45) “I wanted to be a farmer. I guess I wanted to follow in Dad‟s
footsteps,
(13:50) “Okay.”
(13:54) “And I loved farming.”
(13:56) “So even as you joined the Navy Reserves, the idea was to
serve your country, come back and become a farmer.”
(14:02) “Yes.
(14:05) Okay.
(14:09) See, the way I looked at it, I was losing my teenage years. That, to me,
you know, that‟s the time you start driving, start dating, and with the gas
rationing, and of course I loved sports. We just….things didn‟t go. Everything
was upset. The war had everything in turmoil. Say turmoil. The country came
together but as individuals there was no future until that war was done.”

�(14:56) “That‟s, that‟s very true. Very profound. It‟s interesting that
after all these years, you still look back and realize that you missed out
on some real basic teenage….driving a car, finding a sweetheart,
having a milkshake…” “Well, I had those.”
(15:01) “Oh, you did?”
(15:10) “Oh, yeah. But not as many as I wanted to. I was limited. Let‟s put it
that way. Because when that, we only had one car there and when those ration
stamps were gone we had to stay home. But, no, we had, we made our own
fun, the biggest share of it. In a group, youth hall, when we went away, we
didn‟t go one in each car. We filled the car up.”
(15:31) “With everybody you could pack in there.”
(15:35) “When you finally did join up, had you ever traveled outside
the immediate area? Had you been to Chicago or anything like that?””
(15:45) “I‟d been to Detroit once. Some friends had invited me to go along and
see a Detroit Tiger baseball game. No, otherwise, no. I‟d never been out.”
(15:55) “So even though you had traveled out of your home family
immediate area, it was with friends, so you felt protected and you went
there and came back. But now, you are about to embark on a journey
with places with names you can‟t even spell.”
(16:13) “That‟s right. I‟d never heard of them before.”
(16:18) “So let‟s, let‟s actually walk us through the process. You leave
home. Where did you go? The very first place you went to start
getting in to the Navy Reserve.”
(16:28) “Well, I went to Detroit and we had our physical there. And I went
from Detroit to Great Lakes….”
(16:34) “Okay.”
(16:38) “….Naval Station on the other side of Lake Michigan.”
(16:40) “Were you still in civilian clothes?”
(16:42) “Well, that‟s when I…”

�(16:50) “When did they issue you the uniforms at Great Lakes?”
(16:53) “When I got to Great Lakes.”
(16:58) “Okay. All right. So basically then, Detroit, their just the
physical and there‟s just a bunch of guys standing in a line and they‟re
just.”
(17:00)“You‟re not in until you pass that physical, see.”
(17:04) ”Right. So from Detroit to Great Lakes, how did you get
there?”
(17:07) “By train.”
(17:11) ”And you are with the same guys you saw in Detroit or they all
strangers or?”
(17:16) “No. Some of them were. Yeah. Some of them are…These are the
guys that, the fact is that some of them, a couple of them took the train from
here to Grand Rapids or to Detroit.”
(17:20) So you knew these guys?
(17:22)”No I didn‟t know them personally… until I met them… at the train
station?”
(17:28) “Okay. All right. So you‟re all in civvies, you are about to go
off on this great adventure. I want to picture this now. Okay. You get
off the train. Who was there to greet you? Was there a drill sergeant
or?”
(17:43) “I don‟t know! I don‟t what he was! Follow me!”
(17:49) “So you guys are gathered together and you go to, this is a
camp?”
(17:56) “Yeah. This is your boot camp they call it in the Navy. That‟s your
basic training.”
(18:04) “Now, let me try and visualize this. What am I seeing? Is it a
small place? Is it a huge place?”

�(18:13) “It‟s a huge place. Great Lakes is one of the older naval training
stations.”
(18:14) “So you got parade grounds.”
(18:14) “Oh yes.”
(18:14) “Barracks. “
(18:15) “Yeah.”
(18:15) “These are wooden structures?
(18:16) “These are all wooden structures.”
(18:18) Okay. Not tent city or anything?
(18:26) “Fact is Great Lakes actually did have a couple of ships on Lake
Michigan, too. I never had the privilege of getting on one.”
(18:27) “All right. So now they‟re marching you, after a fashion I
imagine because you guys don‟t actually know how to march yet.
Where did you go first? Did they take you to barracks?”
(18:37) “Barracks, yeah. We had a regular routine out of our barracks. We
stayed in the same place; I think it was about six weeks that we had basic
training.”
(18:51) “Well, I want to walk you through this. You get to the
barracks, you‟re basically unloading your stuff. You‟re assigned a
bunk, or you just pick a bunk.”
(19:01) “You‟re assigned.”
(19:02) “You‟re assigned. Okay. Are these two high? One. Two. Or
are they three?”
(19:08) “I believe they was two high.”
(19:10) “Okay.”
(19:12) “You there‟s a funny thing about it. As I went through my naval
career, what I‟ve gone through, I‟ve left behind.”

�(19:33) “Yeah. Well, I‟m going to try and dredge it up. That‟s what I‟m
supposed to be here for.”
(19:37) “Yeah. There‟s a lot of things, well, if they weren‟t comfortable why,
when I was through with them, well, forget „em.”
(19:42) “Yeah. Well, let‟s walk through from the civvies to the
uniform. In my mind, you picture it from movies and whatnot that
you‟re kind of in a line and, you know, there‟s shirts and you have
pants and your shoes are all allocated to you. So, I take it that they
had a New York tailor there, he was measuring your….Well, what really
happened?”
(20:00) “Well, what you did was you had to take care of your own uniform, of
course and you had to do your own washing and it was all done by hand. Then
when you got them dried, you put them under your bunk to press them.”
(20:17) “Okay. Yeah. Okay.”
(20:20) “And, everyone, we had one guy, we called him Bonnie Baker. We had
to wear white uniforms because it was summertime. When I was at Great
Lakes, we had to wear white uniforms and when you stood inspection, they had
to be clean, ***see and Bonnie Baker, he‟d always take Bon Ami and rub those
dirty spots.
So, we called him Bonnie Baker, but he got past inspection just like the rest of
us.”
(20:53) “What was the daily routine like in the very early days? What
time did you get up and what did you have to do?”
(21:05) “We got up at daybreak and then we went out and we had a short time
of exercise and then we would go for breakfast and of course you got a big
military base there and you only got one mess hall and so we had to eat on our
schedule.”
(21:35) “Are you talking about long lines?”
(21:38) “Yes.”
(21:42) ”So you had to wait in long lines to go through a buffet?”
(21:46) “But they didn‟t send the whole outfit to one time.”
(21:48) “Right. It was all scheduled. Right. Sure.”

�(21:54) “Then you took what they gave you. You didn‟t say, „I don‟t like
oatmeal today. I‟d rather have cream of wheat.‟”
(22:02) “So you go through the chow line, you eat, then what?
Remember, I‟m talking about the first couple of weeks.”
(22:08) “Then we‟d usually go into exercises again. And conditioning was a big
thing, one of the biggest things. They used to have competition. We even had
boxing and stuff, just to put one guy against the other and learn how to
compete.”
At that time I thought it was foolish, but later you realize that competing was a
big part of it.”
(22:44) “Marching?”
(22:48) “We did an awful lot of studying of airplanes.”
(22:51) “Really?”
(22:53) “Airplanes. Ships.”
(22:56) “What kind of airplanes? Japanese?”
(23:04) “You had to be able to identify them, see. This was a big thing and
even after we got out to sea, you had to be able to identify your airplanes and
ships and we had to signal.”
(23:14) “Communications?”
(23:18) “For communications you had to be able to signal with flags and we did
a lot of that.”
(23:23) “Let me ask you this. You came from a farm background and
that‟s not easy. Physically, that‟s not easy. You‟re bailing hay; you‟re
doing all kinds of things. So how did you match up in terms of basic
training? Was it difficult because they put you through, they put you
to the limits, I know that. But in terms of your background as a farm
boy, did you adapt better because you‟d worked?”
(23:44) “Oh, yeah. To me, I was in good shape because I played basketball for
a couple of hours and then I still had to walk home seven and a half miles and
then I still had chores to do. So, no, probably physically, these guys who came
from the city, they hadn‟t had the exercise.”

�(24:13) “A lot more difficult.”
(24:18) “I realize that it‟s a long time ago, but was there a sense of
camaraderie or was there a lot of…because you see it in the movies all
the time. The farm boy is picked on because he‟s a farm boy and the
New York guy is supposed to be sophisticated. Was any of that going
on in the barracks and whatnot in terms of the fact that you‟re all from
different parts of the country?”
(24:36) “There was a little of it. This is one thing that‟s amazing, these guys
come from New York in their zoot suits, but you know we became just like each
other. You grew together. Every time you got moved around while you was in
the military, why there was another buddy in the same position you was in. You
never had a lack for somebody that you could communicate with.”
(25:10) “So basic training consisted of a lot of calisthenics exercises,
studying, getting to know aircraft as well as naval ships. Was there a
graduation ceremony?”
(25:26) “Yes.”
(26:30) “You all wore your dress uniforms, it‟s formal. You are now
part of the U.S. Navy Reserves.”
(25:37) “Well, you was part of that, but I mean you‟ve always been part of that.
You went through boot camp. You graduated boot camp, so then you got one
stripe on your wrist.”
(25:49) “Where do you go from there?”
(25:59) “Well, I had a short leave, came home and then I went to California;
Camp Shoemaker, which was a debarkation center out in California.”
(26:08) “Now, if you went to the east coast, you would be going to
Europe. You go to the west coast; you know where you‟re going. Did
you figure that out by the time you got to California?”
(26:15) Yeah. That wasn‟t hard to figure out.”
(26:20) “What year is this, by the way?”
(26:23) “It‟s still ‟44.”

�(26:28) “Had you been keeping track of what was going on overseas,
either through newspapers or radio?”
(26:32) “To a certain extent, we‟d hear about a battle or something like that,
but we didn‟t, even in our barracks in boot camp, you couldn‟t have a radio. The
only news we‟d get would be if they wanted us to have it.”
(27:06) “So now you end up in California. What was the purpose of
being there? This is a staging area?”
(27:13) “Yeah, this is where they send people to, and then you were
reassigned. It wasn‟t on the coast. It was out in the desert area. Then they
would reassign you to wherever they needed somebody.
(27:31) “Had the decision been made as to what your particular job
was going to be? When did you find out you were going to be a
coxswainer? What were you actually trained to do?”
(27:42) “I wasn‟t trained to do anything special then, just be part of the Navy.
There‟s where you got reassigned. We were sent down to Coronado….”
(28:00)“It‟s a beautiful place.”
(28:03)“…Amphibious Training Base.”
(28:07) “So now it‟s starting to dawn on you that you might be
operating one of these landing crafts. So, how do you take to that?”
(28:13) “Oh, I‟ll tell ya. After I got started, we were confused. When you went
down there, you didn‟t know what your job was going to be. So they tried us all
and give us each tests to drive landing crafts and then they figured out who
could handle something and who couldn‟t. Then I got assigned to practice
driving the landing craft.”
(28:50)“Well, I find it interesting that you are a farm boy from
Michigan with no real experience in all this but yet somehow you took
to handling this huge landing craft. You just took to it, huh?”
(29:05) “Well, golly, before the only way I got across the water was the oars.
One stroke at a time.”
(29:16) “So now I‟m behind the wheel of this twenty-six foot landing craft, with
a diesel motor in there, to be honest with you, I enjoyed driving it. I really did.

�I mean when they gave me a chance, I was determined that I was going to do
the best I could.”
(29:38) “What was the training like for that? I know Coronado myself,
because I‟ve been there. I lived in San Diego, but were you operating
from a ship and your job was to get the landing craft to the shore? I‟m
talking about now, okay? Just the initial training. What was the
process? What was it like?”
(29:58) “Well, they had a bunch of landing crafts, of course and then we would
have classes for a while, part of the day. Then we‟d go out on the beach, take
these landing crafts out, and actually drive them. There‟d be a whole boatload
of guys; they each were driving their own.”
(30:25)“Now, were you training with troops, or empty?”
(30:27)“No.”
(30:29) “So these were empty.”
(30:35) “Well, it was just with the guys who were taking training.”
(30:40) “So they were pretending, if you will, to be the troops. So
you‟re driving them around and you‟re going to get into another one
and somebody else is going to drive you around.”
(30:45) “No. It would be the same one. They‟d fit a bunch of us in this landing
craft with one instructor and then we‟d have practice runs into the beach. He
would tell us what we did wrong and then somebody else would try it.”
(31:03) “Did anybody get sick?”
(31:06) “Oh, yes.”
(31:09) “Did you?”
(31:13) “Only once all the time I was in the Navy.”
(31:15) “Wow.”
(31:20) We had a bunch of these landing crafts. We tied them up together to
stop to have some K rations or C rations, one or the other…”
(31:26) “..Canned food...”

�(31:32) “Dog biscuits. Anyway, we tied a bunch of them up together and we
was sitting down, taking a break and smoking. You couldn‟t smoke, either
unless you all took a break.”
(31:42) “At the same time.”
(31:43) “At the same time”
(31:45) “Smoke „em if ya got „em.”
(31:52) “Then you didn‟t have to if you didn‟t want to either, but we tied
together and they‟s just rough enough water that they was bumping together
and I started feeling kind of sick. Then I stood up and looked out and I was
okay. But I‟ve seen people that step off the dock onto a boat or onto a ship and
he‟s seasick. Put him back on the dock and he‟s over it.”
(32:11) “Amazing.”
(32:14) “That‟s something that didn‟t bother me, but I did enjoy driving these
landing craft because it was a new experience.”
(32:24) “Here‟s one of those stupid questions that I told you in
advance that I was going to be asking you, okay? Did you have any
inkling about the danger that you were about to get into, because the
idea of learning how to drive a landing craft means that you‟re taking
troops into battle and they are going to hit that beach and try to
attack. I mean, at this time in your training did you have any inkling?”
(32:50) “Oh, we knew what we were training for.”
(32:54) “Okay.”
(32:56) “We knew why we were there, but we just tried to make the best of
what we had. We weren‟t scared. I guess when you‟re at that age and you got
a bunch of other guys around ya, you kind of comfort one another. Just to show
how it goes. I had three guys in my landing craft and one was a deck hand and
one was an engineer and they handled the ropes and everything and I‟d do the
driving. I always said, „Jock, you know, there ain‟t no use in you and I worrying.
Stan will worry enough for all three of us.‟”
(33:47) “I had one guy who worried.”
(33:50) “He was a worrier.”

�(33:53) “Yeah. So we let him do it.”
(33:55) “Let him do the worrying!”
(34:02) “Once the training was over, was there any ceremony saying
okay, you‟re now a landing craft operator?”
(34:05) “No, we knew that before. We were all…there were three men in each
landing craft and then we were divided up, told who‟s going to be in which
landing craft.”
(34:09) “Okay.”
(34:19) ”As far as ceremony, no. We were shipped up, we didn‟t even know if
we was going on the same ships. “
(34:29) “So where did you go next from Coronado?”
(34:33) “We went to Astoria, Oregon. When we went to get onboard our
ships.”
(34:41) “And what ship was that?”
(34:46) “The A.P.A. 226. U.S.S. Rollins.”
(34:49) “The mighty R.”
(34:54) “Named after a county in Kansas. Now we went up there, a brand new
ship, and we went on a shakedown cruise, that‟s what they called it.”
(35:00) “What‟s that?”
(35:03) “That‟s a trial cruise to make sure it‟s seaworthy. Then we started
picking up supplies.”
(35:12) “So this is an empty ship except for the guys who are going to
handle the landing crafts?”
(35:19) “No, the rest of the crew was there, too. Now why they put us on
there…?”
(35:22) “Actually, the ship‟s crew. See, I wasn‟t part of the ship‟s crew. I was
on that ship, but not actually part of the operating of that ship.”

�(35:30) “Right.”
(35:38) “Our job was landing.”
(35:40) “Passengers. You were passengers.”
(35:41) “No. We were landing craft.”
(35:42) “Okay.”
(35:42) “We maintained those landing crafts. And guns. And things like that.
And we did have our duties of standing lookout and things like that.”
(35:57) “So how long did the trip take?”
(35:59) “You mean from Kelt Point?”
(36:00) “Yes.”
(36:00) “I don‟t know. One day, I guess. I was too busy to look and that‟s
scenic. I never went up the post to look. Fact is, the first time I ever saw an
orange tree.”
(36:12) “Really? Was in California? I‟ll be darned.”
(36:15) “Yeah.”
(36:16) “So, you‟re traveling on this ship, you say you went and picked
up supplies.”
(36:22) “Yeah. Well, whatever we needed, you know. Even the electricians
had to have extra supplies. Our boat crew, we had to have extra screws, parts
for motors. And we didn‟t even have our landing craft onboard yet.”
(36:46) “Oh, I was just going to ask that. Okay. So the landing craft is
not on yet.”
(37:52) “We went on down to San Francisco or San Diego. No, yeah. We
stopped in San Francisco first and picked up some stuff, then we went down to
San Diego and picked up some more down at a naval base down there and then
we came back up to L.A. and that‟s where we picked up our landing craft.”
(37:15) “How many were on the ship?”

�(37:17) “Approximately three hundred.”
(37:21) “Three hundred landing crafts?”
(37:25) “No. Landing crafts, there were twenty-six landing crafts.”
(27:29) “Twenty-six landing crafts. What was the three hundred
figure?”
(37:31) “Oh, better that three hundred crew.”
(37:32) “Crew? Okay. Like, so now, do you know where you‟re
going?”
(37:38) “No. Wouldn‟t recognize it if I did.”
(37:41) “Well, those are all new names out there.”
(37:45) “So, you start off now from Los Angeles.”
(37:50) “San Francisco. We picked up our landing craft in Los Angeles, and
then we went back to San Francisco.”
(37:58) “Okay. So you‟re leaving and there‟s the San Francisco
Bridge.”
(38:04) “Yeah.”
(38:08) “That‟s the last view of America for quite a while.”
(38:12) “I always say I went under that Golden Gate Bridge I think fourteen
times and I never went over yet.”
(38:15) “Wow.”
(38:20)“Was there a sense of….I guess, what were you feeling like when you
were leaving? I‟ve talked to vets who left from New York. Of course it‟s the
Statue of Liberty that‟s the symbol of America. You leave San Francisco, it‟s that
bridge.”
(38:30) “That‟s the bridge.”

�(38:33) “And you‟re leaving it. And you‟re going into parts unknown.
Was there any emotions or thoughts going through your head?”
(38:38) “Oh, sure. Sure. And, of course, when we leave there‟s a pilot that
takes the ship out. We get out in the ocean, and then they bring us our orders.
The captain of the ship don‟t even know where he‟s headed when he goes out of
that gate. He gets his orders after he‟s out to sea.”
(39:02) “Was this one ship or was this a convoy?”
(39:06) “No we went alone.”
(39:10) “Was there zigzag? Okay.”
(39:13) “Yeah, we had a zigzag course, change speeds. That purpose was so
that the enemy couldn‟t pick up your course and have a submarine waiting for
you. Or, airplane, whatever.”
(39:27) “Especially ships with a lot of troops on it. They were targets.”
(39:31) “Absolutely.”
(39:39) “Now, the trip over had one very unusual event. People don‟t
often realize that when you cross over the equator, the Navy,
especially has this kind of ceremony. I wonder if you could talk about
the King Neptune Ceremony?”
(39:47) “When you go across the equator, you got to be initiated. You‟re a
pollywog. And so they have initiation and we were unfortunate, really, because
we had a bunch of Army men onboard and the biggest share of them were going
out for the second tour and they‟d been across the equator before. I think we
could have handled the regular crew that had been across before, but not with
the Army helping them. When you get an initiation, it makes these hazings look
pretty tame. That is one initiation that is, well, fact is, it‟s in every man‟s record
yet that he‟s been initiated.”
(40:43) “So you‟ve got a king and a queen. The queen dresses up in a
wig, okay. And they‟ve got a king and they‟ve got a couple other
people in the court there to make sure that you do this…”
(40:56) “Yeah. You‟ve got King Neptune and his Royal Family, is what it‟s
called. And you got everybody down to the baby. And part of the initiation was,
you had to kiss the baby‟s rear end. And he had graphite grease on it, so you
can imagine what you looked like when you were done.”

�(41:21) “Aw, gawd.”
(41:25) “One guy bit it, and boy did he take a beating. Yeah, he took a
beating. He was black and blue.”
(41:31) “What did they do to you?”
(41:36) “Well, they actually used electric welders to give you shocks. They
have a tank that is built out of canvas and two by fours and it‟s filled partially
with water and they put you in there and you gotta try and crawl out and then
they have two and a half inch rope, covered with canvas that‟s been soaking in
water and they‟re hitting ya when you are trying to get out of there.
(42:00) And another thing is, they had a tunnel they made out of canvas with
rings and you had to crawl through that tunnel and they had a fire hose shooting
in your face. And they had these outfits and they was hitting you while you were
trying to crawl through. It was something different. Then of course, they took a
razor and go right over the top of your head and we had one man he had a
beautiful head of hair. And of course we down in the tropics and he didn‟t like a
hat anyway. He said „If they want me to get rid of my hair, I‟m going to shave
my head.‟ So he shaved his hair and it never came back.”
(42:48) “Oh.”
(42:51) “He was sick. He didn‟t know whether he wanted to go home or not.
He had his, evidently, the sun never hit on his skull. Killed the rest of his hair.”
(43:08) “Did they slop stuff on your face and all that? Did they have a
makeshift swimming pool that they dumped you in?”
(43:14) “Well, that was the one we had to crawl out of. And they were
hitting...”
(43:18) “This is the canvas? It‟s basically a makeshift swimming pool.”
(43:22) “Yeah. They made it out of canvas and two by fours. You had. It was
a ten foot wall and you had to jump up and catch that and then crawl out and
even once in a while there‟d be somebody already up there stepping on your
fingers. All depends on whether they like you.”
(43:50) “So you finally got through that ceremony and where did you
arrive? Where did you get to?”

�(43:55) “Our first stop was New Caledonia. That was down there near
Australia.”
(44:03) “By now, you said you got orders, right? So you know basically
where you‟re going?”
(44:09) “No. We didn‟t. Well, we knew we were headed for New Caledonia,
but from there, no.”
(44:18) “You arrive in New Caledonia. Did you get a chance to go off
shore?”
(44:24) “We went ashore there, yes.”
(44:28)“Well, let‟s stop here for a moment. You‟ve never been to Asia.
You get off the ship in New Caledonia. What was that experience like?
The smell? The heat?”
(44:38) “New Caledonia wasn‟t bad. That was a French hold, New Caledonia.
They had natives there. Their skin was black, but they never got their hair cut
so their hair, instead of bleaching out white, bleached out red. But they did have
some of these natives working around the docks and stuff, but the biggest share
of them….and one guy had a pair of cowboy boots he threw out in the dumpster
there on the dock and two of these natives came along and it was a pair of
shoes, you know? They each grabbed a shoe, but they couldn‟t get their foot in
it. So they went off with their toe in just the upper part. But they had a shoe.”
(45:34) “There was some French Naval people there on New Caledonia. Of
course France at that time, Germany had control of France. I suppose what little
military they had was out that way. It wasn‟t as primitive as a lot of those
islands were.”
(46:00) “Okay. You were there to pick up supplies or troops, or what
were you there for?”
(46:04) “Well, that‟s where we took those troops that we had over.”
(46:08) “Now, did you know where these troops were supposed to be
going or are you just loading troops on?”
(46:12) “No. And there, too, being the landing craft, we‟d take these guys to
shore. We didn‟t have to go to the docks like your other ships, see. And we did
all the landing craft. If somebody had to go ashore, then we took them in the

�landing craft. And if we picked up spice, we usually picked up our supplies with
the landing craft and brought them back.”
(46:38) “Were the troops…what branch of service were the troops?”
(46:43) “They were Army.”
(46:46) “Okay. From New Caledonia, where did you go?”
(46:50) “We went to Guadalcanal.”
(46:53) “Guadalcanal. Now. This was of course after Guadalcanal had
been taken.”
(46:57) “Yes.”
(47:01) “This was one of the bloodiest battles in American history but
by the time you got there, it was already secured. Did you see any
evidence of what had happened before?”
(47:09)”Oh, yeah. You see the wreckages and stuff.”
(47:15) “You mean wreckages in the water?”
(47:20) “Yeah and the damage along the edge. Fact is, there‟s where we took
our practice landings. We picked up the First Marine Division and then we‟d
practice there and then we‟d go off maybe to another island then land them on
another island. There is quite a chain of islands in that area.”
(47:45) “So this was practice, not only for you but for the troops to hit
the beach, secure the beach. So you‟re part of military training
operations in preparation for wherever you‟re going.”
(47:57) “And a lot of these guys had been through battle before.”
(48:01) “Already.”
(48:05) “But, yeah. It was for both. And even you make your plans for
invasion and it‟s got to be tested, you know. I mean it wasn‟t just for us to drive
the landing craft or the guys that was running out of the landing craft when they
hit the beach. It was for the wheels to see how it was going. Is there
something we could change that could save somebody‟s life?”

�(48:30) “I know it‟s difficult to compare yourself to fellow coxswains,
but when you landed your craft, did you feel like you were getting it
right at the right spot so that they could get on or were there a few
mess ups here and there?”
(48:52) “Well, it was kind of comical at Guadalcanal. See you got down in that
area and you had an awful lot of coral. We‟re down near the coral islands.”
(49:00) “Totally different than practicing in California.”
(49:06) “Yes. On the beach, sandy beach. And, we were going full speed in
toward the beach, a full load of troops on all at once, we hit a coral head and
that front end came up in the air and couldn‟t do nothing with it. So I says,
„Pete, got to ramp.‟ We dropped the ramp, some guys stepped off and, boom,
water up to here. The only way you could get off was to get the weight out of
there, see?”
(49:41)“You were stuck in other words. You couldn‟t move forward.”
(49:45) “I couldn‟t move there because coral is sharp. You even walk on it with
leather shoes and it will cut the leather in your shoes.”
(49:54) “Yeah. I‟ve heard it shreds your boots.”
(49:58) “And this was a wooden bottom so it...”
(50:04) “What was the make up of these landing craft? What were
they made of?”
(50:08) “Wood, except for the ramp which was metal.”
(50:14) “So if you run aground on coral, doesn‟t that tear a hole into the
wood?”
(50:21) “Well, they‟ve got a good sized keel. A keel is your center piece. It‟s
way back from the bow.”
(50:35) ”So whatever you hit is going to hit that first.”
(50:38)“Yeah. Actually even our screw has got something under it so it won‟t
drag.”
(50:47) “But it still stops you in your tracks.”

�(50:51) “Oh, yes.”
(50:54) „So, how did you overcome that? I mean you couldn‟t see the
coral, is that right?”
(50:59) “Well, you could some, but see what you had was this deckhand, I‟ll
call him. He just was supposed to be your guide because that ramp is up there
high enough and it‟s hard. You can‟t see anything below. You can see
something off in the distance. He‟s supposed to guide me. If he sees the coral
ahead, he‟s supposed to signal to me. He didn‟t do it and maybe he didn‟t see it.
There was enough landing crafts that made landings there that had things stirred
up, too. And if there‟s any silt…I never blamed him. There was nothing said.
This was part of practice. I said Pete, but it‟s Chuck. „Chuck, next time you have
to watch out for this.‟ ”
(51:51) “But then there were other landings – this is practice now –
there were other landings where you hit the beach solid and the thing
went down and they ran out on the beach and they were fine? So it
depended. There was really no way of knowing what the result was
going to be.”
(52:06) “You had your designated place to hit. Now you can‟t say, 'Hey, this
don‟t look good. I want to go over here a hundred yards.‟ Somebody else has
got that. You would…when you went into the beach, you went in like a wave.
There was a whole line of you and you stayed your distance from the guy next to
you. You got to go in where you can.”
(52:32) “Was there any briefing like, „You now have to load your
troops, you‟re going onto the beach, you‟re going to load this thing,
and, oh, by the way, people will be shooting at you.‟?” Would they give
you any indication of the kind of firepower that was going to be coming
at you?”
(52:49) “No.”
(52:54) “But you knew you weren‟t just going to cruise in there and let
these guys off for a picnic.”
(53:03) “We weren‟t going for a beer party.”

�(53:11) “But there wasn‟t any, „Well they‟ve got these kind of cannons and
they‟ve got these kind of resistance and be prepared for aircraft trying to bomb
you.‟ Was there any kind of briefings like that?”
(53:21) “You knew that. They‟d say, „We might hit heavy resistance.‟ But, no.
They had no way of knowing for sure.”
(53:30) “So once the training was over with, where did you go from
there? After Guadalcanal?”
(53:37) “Then we ended up at Ulithi. That was a staging area.”
(53:43) “Now, Ulilthi, you call it a staging area. This was a huge area
in which all kinds of ships are there? And it was a staging area to then
go into battle. So now you‟re about to go into battle and you know
you‟re about to go into battle.”
(54:00) “Oh, we knew what was up.”
(54:09) “Now, Guadalcanal you knew was training.”
(54:12) “We knew we were getting ready for battle, yeah. All the way. The
fact is, when we put the landing craft onboard, you knew what they were for.”
(54:16) “Okay. Now at Ulithi, you know it‟s coming up real soon. It‟s
not like before. I mean you knew you were going into battle in
Coronado, too but, I don‟t think it‟s the same kind of feeling as at
Ulithi.”
(54:26) “Then we could enjoy running these landing crafts.”
(54:32) “Did you get an impression of how big this operation was from
Ulilthi? Because it‟s a lot of ships there.”
(54:40) “Yes. Well, we did have fighting ships there. The fighting ships are all
big. Ulithi, that area is really just a high spot in the ocean, a good anchorage
area. The little islands are Anoita, Mogmog. Fact is, we used to take troops
over on Mogmog and you can‟t even find it on the map. So they could get off
the ship and stretch out, do something. Because when you‟ve got that many
men on board ship, especially in the tropics, it‟s heck.”
(55:18) “And it‟s like sardines. This troop ship is not like a luxury liner. They‟re
packed in. Well, we‟ve talked to guys who were literally standing up, because
you couldn‟t lay down, or sit down in some cases.”

�(55:32) “Well, we had to stand up to eat. Even the crew had to stand up to eat
when we had troops on board.”
(55:41) “Because it‟s a continuous line of food. They just keep going. There‟s
always food being served.”
(55:51) “So, from Ulithi, where did you go?”
(55:55) “That‟s when we went to Okinawa.”
(56:00) “Now this is real battle. This is the real deal. Where were you?
Were you in a convoy?”
(56:03) “Yes.”
(56:08) “Where were you in the convoy?”
(56:09) “I don‟t know. See, a convoy, you have….you‟re in the center. The
troop ships are in the center, then you have your other fighting ships are on the
outside. We could be on lookout watching for planes, which we did all the time.
You can see the aircraft carriers and planes actually landing on them.”
(56:35) “This is the Franklin? The Franklin was out there.”
(56:39) “Yes. And then you had your cruisers and your battleships and outside
of that you had your aircraft. But the aircraft stayed outside of the convoy.
Once an enemy plane any plane got over the top of the convoy, he was pretarget.”
(57:06) “Friend or foe.”
(57:06) “Yes.”
(57:17) “So, you‟re part of this huge armada of fighting ships. You‟re
right in the center of it. When did you get into battle? Was it the first
day of the invasion of Okinawa?”
(57:30) “Yes. It was the first morning. The fact is I left the ship before the
ship actually dropped anchor. I was designated Wave Leader. We had the First
Marine Division on board, but I had to be a Wave Leader for the Sixth Marine
Division.”
(57:53) “Now, what is a Wave Leader?”

�(57:54) “He led the waves into the beach.”
(58:00) ”And how many were in a wave?”
(58:01) “A full length of the beach.”
(58:02) “How many landing crafts are we talking about?”
(58:03) “Oh, I don‟t know.”
(58:13) “Okay.”
(58:18) “As far as the beach extends. I have no idea there was, but anyhow,
each one had every so often so far you had a wave leader. He was running
between well, say, like me, I was between the second wave and the third,
leading the third in.”
(58:38) “But it‟s still on the first day.”
(58:43) ”On the first day. Fact is, I had to run, the put me over the side. Near
as I can figure it out, it was about 4:30 in the morning when we had to go find
these...”
(58:53) “The ship.”
(58:57) “…amphibious ducks. Then we ground the boob to a bib. And I led
amphibious ducks onto the beach.”
(59:00) “Now, was there, in the very early morning, you get up. You
know what you‟re supposed to be doing. You‟re a Wave Leader and
you‟re supposed to rendezvous with the duck. Had the shooting
started?”
(59:21) “Yes. They were shelling the beach. “
(59:25) “Okay. So this was going on already.”
(59:28) “Oh, yes. Yes.”
(59:32) “So you‟re on the center, but on the outer rim and you‟ve just
got this huge amount of „Boom! Boom! Boom!‟
They‟re just shelling the….“Not the….just on the beach area. Towards the
beach area. Only when the enemy planes came in did you hear the other
shooting.”

�(59:50) “Right. But we‟re talking about when you get up. It‟s 4:30.
You‟ve got your assignment; you know where you‟re going. Had the
shooting already started?”
(59:54) “We could hear it in the distance.”
(59:58) “Okay. The ships are that far away from you that you could
hear it in the distance as opposed to hearing it close up.”
(1:00:03) “Oh yeah.”
(1:00:06) “I‟ve seen aerial film footage of the armada and even with
that, you can‟t get an idea of how big this was.”
(1:00:11) “No. That‟s right.”
(1:00:20) “So, you‟re in the center and you‟re hearing off in the
distance, the shelling. It‟s that far from where you are. That‟s
amazing.”
(1:00:25) “Of course, those are big bombs. See you‟re not shooting rifles at
that time. It‟s the big guns.”
(1:00:32) “All right. So, you get into your landing craft from your
location. You‟ve got two other guys with you, Pete and Chuck is that
right?”
(1:00:41) “No, I had Chuck and Phil. Phil.”
(1:00:47) “And now you‟re in your landing craft on the water and
you‟re going to rendezvous with where you‟re going to pick up the
duck, right?”
(1:00:54) “Yeah. I had one naval officer with me.”
(1:00:59) “So you did find it?”
(1:01:06) ”They gave me a pretty good compass course.”
(1:01:18) “How did they get the duck onto your landing craft?”
(1:01:22) “The duck? Well, that didn‟t get on ours.”

�(1:01:23) “Oh, okay.”
(1:01:30) “They came out of these…they had these bigger landing crafts that
they…”
(1:01:31) “…brought the ducks in. Ok.”
(1:01:37) “They could bring them in, but they couldn‟t get to the beach, see.
They had to unload out there for the invasion. Otherwise, if they‟d have gone in,
they‟d have been the only target. This way….”
(1:01:42) “But the duck and the other landing craft were part of your
wave?”
(1:01:47) “Yes. Just the ducks. These are L.S.M.s. I don‟t know whether
you‟ve heard of them. They‟re an amphibious outfit only they‟re the kind that
you‟ve got to clear the beach and everything so you can get them in there. They
do have, for the personnel ones; they have a walkway on each side, like the
amphibious ducks and they could let them out the front. They didn‟t have to
take them way in to the beach, because the ducks could... ”
(1:02:18)“I see. On the water. Okay. What were you carrying in your
landing craft?”
(1:02:23) “I just had my own officer and a couple marine officers.”
(1:02:33) “So your job was just to lead the waves.”
(1:02:37) “I had the officers of the waves. A lot of people don‟t realize this.
You take your lieutenants, J.G.s, and your ensigns and that kind of stuff, they
may be above the enlisted men, but they‟re the first ones to…”
(1:03:01) “Hit the beach.”
(1:03:03) “ ..A lot of your low rank officers - that‟s one of the most dangerous
spots there is, because if you‟re going to be a leader, you have to be in the
front.”
(1:03:17) “And that‟s the ones they‟re looking to pick off.”
(1:03:21) “Let‟s go through your first experience then, the first wave.”

�(1:03:32) “We rendezvous with the ducks and then when we got the orders to
move, the battleship West Virginia was between us and the beach. So we had to
go around the bows of the West Virginia.”
(1:03:44) “Were they firing?”
(1:03:49) “Yes. They were shelling the beach. We had to go around the bow
to go into the beach and that was, well, maybe you can imagine a sixteen-inch
gun, what a concussion it has.”
(1:04:08) “Loud, really loud.”
(1:04:10) “Deafening. We had, I‟m surprised that it didn‟t affect the ears. Of
course we had helmets on, which probably blocked a lot of it. That was one of
the experiences that stand out as much as anything, going around that West
Virginia and the guns shooting over our heads.”
(1:04:38) “So you‟re now heading with this wave toward the beach
and you‟re seeing explosions on the beach?”
(1:04:47) “Dive bombers and shelling.”
(1:04:52) “And they‟re coming from the aircraft. Was there any
shelling coming at you?”
(1:04:58) “Not that I know of, no.”
(1:05:04) “So really you‟re heading into a beach area that‟s being
pounded, bombarded, but you‟re not seeing the return fire. You‟re just
bringing the guys in.”
(1:05:13) “Yeah. To be honest with you, we didn‟t get much resistance right
away. It was a scary part, being in the third wave, but we had more tragic things
happen afterwards because they had, there was a sea wall and they had caves in
that sea wall. As long as they were staying in…”
(1:05:42) “They were safe.”
(1:05:46) “Well, if they came out, they wouldn‟t last. No. They did a
real good job of softening up the beach.”
(1:05:54) “So, what happened when you landed?”
(1:05:58) “I got them guys out and took off again!”

�(1:06:05)“Well, I figured that.”
(1:06:10) “I landed, let the marine officers out.”
(1:06:14) “Did you land well enough so that they didn‟t get wet?”
(1:06:17) “Oh, yeah. If you get a sandy beach. You can slide that thing right
up on the beach. And then, if you can‟t get enough wake for a wave to come in,
then you give it gas and you wash the sand off the landing pad. Pretty soon you
can get off the beach again.”
(1:06:38) “Little tricks like that take practice.”
(1:06:42) “That‟s what it was all about.”
(1:06:47) “You know what is interesting, too, though is getting it right
like that forces you to focus on what you‟re doing. If you hit the beach
right, you want to make sure you get the sand off so even if people are
shooting at you, that‟s what you‟re focused on, is to get the sand off
there, get the thing back and then get out of there.”
(1:07:01) Yes. And you gotta go, when you back out, you got to get beyond
the breakers to turn around. You gotta go backwards until you get beyond to
where the water starts rolling, you see. Because if you get sideways, it will carry
you right back sideways into the beach. So you gotta.”
(1:07:23) “Sideways is not the way you want to be, because you‟re a
bigger target for one thing.”
(1:07:35) “Not only that, but you can‟t get off by yourself. You‟re in the way.
Somebody‟s got to pull you off or you aren‟t going to get back out.”
(1:07:38) “So you survived the first. You brought the officers in. Now
you go back where? Where did you go back to?”
(1:07:46) I went back and picked up another wave.”
(1:07:50) “Is this ducks again?”
(1:07:53) “No, these are L.C.D.P.s, just like I was driving.”
(1:07:55) ”Okay. And they have troops?”

�(1:07:55) “Yes.”
(1:07:57) “So, now you still have to go around the West Virginia?”
(1:08:00) “No.”
(1:08:01) “Okay. So you are in a different position?”
(1:08:03) “These ducks were assigned to be in the area where the West
Virginia was.”
(1:08:09) “Oh, I see.”
(1:08:11) “This is the thing, you go back out and I had a compass course where
to go, so it wasn‟t back where I came from.”
(1:08:22) “Okay. So you bring in the next wave and these are troops
now. Are they Marines?”
(1:08:26) “These are Marines.”
(1:08:29) “Okay.”
(1:08:30) “The fact is this was the First Marine Division. I went back to where
my ship was, in that area. I just don‟t remember it. I mean, we made so many
trips, I don‟t know which is which.”
(1:08:43) “Sure. I understand that.”
(1:08:45) “We went back and we, I believe that, near as I can remember it was
only two waves that I led in. Then we started running separately. Run at you.
Give me a compass course and that way you kept the beach parties had landing
craft there to be unloaded and stuff continued.”
(1:09:11) “So, after you led the second landing wave, now you and the
other guys are going where you‟re assigned. Load some troops. Bring
them in. Get back. Load some troops. Get back in. Had the Japanese
responded by this time? Are you being attacked?”
(1:09:28) “They were starting, yes. They were coming out. And of course, we
were aiming at suicide planes up by the beach.”
(1:09:37) “What was your first, I know it‟s difficult trying to pinpoint
your first, first time you saw one of these aircrafts diving at something.

�Did you think he was just damaged and was just crashing there? Did
you actually figure, „Wait a minute, these guys are really…‟”
(1:09:52) “We knew they was suicide. Because they‟d been using them before
we made the invasions. That‟s when the Franklin got hit, before the invasions.”
(1:10:03) “Right. Did you see, coming back, did you see any of the
American ships getting damaged?”
(1:10:16) “Not actually see them get hit, no.”
(1:10:19) “Okay. You‟re too focused on getting the guys there and
getting back, getting the guys there. You‟re not sightseeing.”
(1:10:23) “No. You got your own landing path and, see, you‟re not only
dodging other landing craft and stuff, and you‟ve got so much stuff in the water.
Fact is we ruined the screw. I hit something and ruined the screw and we had
to go into a different ship so we could repair it. It was the only time I got off;
got out of the water, from the time I was put in the water until I…”
(1:11:00) “Right. By „stuff in the water,‟ what do you mean?”
(1:11:05) “Oh, fragments and anything that would float. See these landing
crafts were wood. They get blowed up and there‟s a lot of wood and that stuff
floating around.”
(1:11:18) “I don‟t want to get into gory details because I know it‟s
difficult but, were you witnessing around you the carnage? I mean,
guy getting hit and things getting blown up and…”
(1:11:31) “A lot of that….I‟ll just… For instance, one night there was a river
there and after we‟d, they‟d set up so that we could go up that river and get rid
of some of this stuff and I had to make my landing up that river. Right at the
mouth of the river was a fishing barge that had been sunk. During the night, the
Japanese
brought this fishing barge and they‟d pick at it. So we finally had to burn it. And
I saw once the Japanese come out of one of those caves, shooting. Until
somebody shot him.
(1:12:31) “No, as far as, say like a Marine, or someone like that, I didn‟t get
that much. It was, see, the Navy is so much different than land force. In the
Navy, well like the Pragmant. It took fifteen hundred men in one blow. In the
Marines they could take one man, one shot. Like us, too. Our biggest problem

�as far as the enemy was if they dropped a mortar in one of these landing crafts,
they blew up the whole thing.”
(1:13:16) “Did you have any close calls?”
(1:13:20) “Yes.”
(1:13:25) “How long did the operation last, from 4:30 in the morning,
until you mentioned at night? Was this going on all day?”
(1:13:32) “Oh, yes. We ran for five days steady.”
(1:13:36) “Five days steady?”
(1:13:39) “Day and night.”
(1:13:40) “Did you get any sleep?”
(1:13:42) “Oh, maybe. I can‟t remember. Sometimes I guess I dozed off.”
(1:13:55) “This is a stupid question, too, but what about eating? Was
it still the same regiment of scheduled time to eat?
(1:14:02) ”That‟s another thing. I don‟t remember stopping to eat for five days.
I don‟t remember stopping to eat. I probably had a c ration or dog biscuit or
something like that, but I guess that was your last thought. Once in a while if it
got over a bit and it was light going, the deckhand would take over and drive a
while.”
(1:14:33) “So after the five days of running straight, what happened?”
(1:14:38) “Well, one of our landing crafts was broke down up on the beach, so
I hooked onto him, hooked a rope to him and was going to take him back to the
ship, see? And I hadn‟t been unloading our ship. Our ship had been unloaded
and we were working on others. I was taking him back to the ship, and here‟s
the ship‟s pulled anchor! Is moving. And it was quite a rough sea. So, I did pull
him along side and they hooked the cables up to him and were raising him up.
Every time they would get him part way up, the wave would go off another and
then he‟d come down the end of those cables and it finally pulled the slings right
out of the landing craft so they threw a chain ladder over into the landing craft
so the guys could grab on and they did. They got out of there and then this
landing craft dropped back down and sunk. And we was, of course, following
along, hoping to get back on board and all at once they said, „Sorry. We can‟t
wait for you.‟ We were out away from the fleet quite a bit by then. Because,

�and I didn‟t know it until afterwards. They said, „Sorry, we can‟t wait for you.”
and then they took off and here we were in set the middle of the ocean with
about a third of a tank of fuel, all by ourselves. Now what are we going to do?
Well, we‟re not going back to the beach. We‟ll find a home somewhere. We did.
We found the ship that lost a landing craft. It took us aboard.”
(1:16:42) “You know, one of the things that we haven‟t talked about,
but you just mentioned briefly, was that this was not smooth sailing,
this is rocky, this is really rough waters out here.”
(1:16:55) “You aren‟t kidding.”
(1:16:56) “So it‟s not just a matter of loading some troops onto a
landing craft and then going off like Gilligan‟s Island to the beach. The
troops getting off were in danger because they are coming down off
these rope ladders and they‟ve got to somehow get into your landing
craft as it‟s bouncing up and down, but as you‟re taking it in, it‟s
bouncing up and down as well, so you have to navigate through all
that. When you went to pick up that damaged landing craft on the
beach, the fighting had stopped by that time on the beach anyway?”
(1:17:32) “Right on the beach. Yes.”
(1:17:34) “So the fighting was still going on inland and you could hear
that?”
(1:17:37) “Yes.”
(1:17:42) “But you were relatively safe.”
(1:17:42) “We were quite safe, yeah, except that then there wasn‟t much of the
long-range guns coming from the Japanese. It was mostly suicides, see?”
“If I‟m not mistaken, I‟ve seen figures once. It said that Japanese used
nineteen hundred suicide planes.”
(1:18:05) “In that battle.”
(1:18:10) “Plus, they used boats that came from down the beach at night.
They‟d come up and ram ships with torpedoes. There was one ship we saw
involved in that. We went back to get another load and they weren‟t there.”
(1:18:29) “Where were you sent after the five days of battle of
Okinawa?”

�(1:18:37) “Then I got aboard this other ship and went back to Saipan. And
that‟s where we went and my ship was there, also. I happen to get the right
ship. Either that, or they all went back after a while. No, we went back to
Saipan.”
(1:19:01) “And what were you doing in Saipan?”
(1:19:04) “Loading up.”
(1:19:06) “For more troops?”
(1:19:07) “To be honest with you, I‟d have to look at that. No, I think we came
back to the States after that.”
(1:19:16) “Okay.”
(1:19:17) “We got out of Okinawa. We were back in Okinawa on the fourth of
July. We were there Easter Sunday then we come back and re-loaded.”
(1:19:36) “But you headed back to the States now?”
(1:19:38) “We came back to the States and got another load.”
(1:19:41) “Where did you come back to? San Francisco?”
(1:19:43) “San Francisco.”
(1:19:45) “So you got back to San Francisco, you loaded up again with
new supplies, then where did you go?”
(1:19:50) “Right back to Okinawa.”
“Okay.”
(1:19:53) “It was quite quiet then.”
(1:19:58) “And what was that purpose of going back to Okinawa? Just
to unload supplies?”
(1:19:58) “Take a load back.”
(1:20:04) “Okay. So you‟re still in the landing craft?”
(1:20:06) “They‟re still fighting.”

�(1:20:07) “Okay. So what you‟re doing is you‟re basically providing the
supplies for the Marines, for the American military that‟s continuing to
fight the battle.”
(1:20:20) “We don‟t only haul troops, but we haul cargo, too. We haul enough
to supply these troops when they‟re on the beat.”
(1:20:29) “Right.”
(1:20:29) “And that‟s the idea of the ship. But then they have another ship
that‟s practically the same size ship, same kind of ship, called A.K.A. and that‟s
cargo and they haul like your kegs and that kind of stuff. We haul mostly for
foot troops and when we‟re out there then we all move these other ships.”
(1:20:59) “Now, where do you go from Okinawa?”
(1:21:04) “Boy, I don‟t know. I‟d have to look it up again.”
(1:21:08) “Okay. Well, you didn‟t have further battle, right?”
(1:21:12) “No. That‟s all of that. We probably went to the Philippines because
when the war ended we were in Leyte, loading up troops for the invasion of the
mainland.”
(1:21:30) “So you were part of what was to be the invasion of Japan.”
(1:21:34) “Yeah.”
(1:21:37) “How did you hear about the war ending?”
(1:21:41) “Well, we was in Leyte Bay, and I‟m going to picture the whole thing.
Then we heard it right there in Leyte Bay. That night, see, every craft has flares,
even our landing craft; in case we get out there all by ourselves and the ship‟s
going somewhere, why we can shoot a flare. And that Leyte Bay was just
something else. Everybody was shooting their flares.”
(1:22:14) “Like fireworks on the Fourth of July?”
(1:22:17) “It was fireworks, but it was for miles.”
(1:22:22) “Now, I understand you had a chance to call your mother at
home?”

�(1:22:26) “Well, when I came back to California.”
(1:22:29) ”What did she tell you?”
(1:22:33) “She said, „Hey, they have a bomb now that I think the war is going
to be over pretty quick.‟”
(1:22:38) “So she‟s telling you about the A-bomb and you didn‟t even
know about it. You had to hear it from your mother!”
(1:22:45) “Yeah. We didn‟t get much news. People back home knew more
about what was going on than we did.”

(1:22:55) “Now, were you part of the occupation of Japan?”
(1:22:58) “We landed the occupation of troops.”
(1:23:01) ”Okay.”
(1:23:04) “See these troops that we were picking up to take up to hit mainland,
we used them as occupation troops.”
(1:23:10) So when bomb was dropped, Japan had an unconditional
surrender. Now the Americans are coming to occupy Japan. Macarthur
is about to arrive. So, you brought the actual troops that were part of
the occupation of Japan.”
(1:23:28) “We made two landings. One on the mainland, main island, the
north end and then there‟s a bay goes between the two islands and we landed
troops on the north island also.”
(1:23:43) “Did you get a chance to spend any time in Japan?”
(1:23:47) “Yeah. We did. One of the first cities that we landed occupational
troops in had been all completely bombed out. It was. The second one hadn‟t
been touched. The fact is we even went in to the shopping area.”
(1:24:09) “What was your reaction? Granted, you weren‟t fighting hand-tohand combat or anything, but, you know, this was our enemy. What was your
impression when you first arrived in Japan? First, let‟s go to the one that was
bombed out. What was your reaction in seeing all this devastation?”
(1:24:24) “Well, that one there, there was nobody there. And when we first
came in, they‟d all took off because they‟d heard we were coming, I guess. And,

�there wasn‟t nothing to see there. But then, they started coming back before we
left. You know, we were jittery, too. Here‟s the enemy that we‟d been fighting
and they were just as meek, they accepted us.
(1:24:56) You know the thing that amazes me in this reminiscence
here, the mighty R, was pictures of American personnel standing with
gay, you know, women in the traditional [garb] and they‟re all smiling
as if, I mean you could have taken that picture, except for the fact that
the military uniforms kind of set the period that it‟s the 1940‟s, you
could have put it in the 1990‟s or the year 2000 and just some tourists
showing up. I mean was the reaction of the Japanese to you suspicion
or fearful or was there a friendliness or?”
(1:25:27) “I honestly believed the Japanese people themselves felt like we
came and liberated them. I had a chance to go to the Hawaiian Islands and I
rode in the plane with a fellow that was half Japanese and half Hawaiian. Him
and I got to talking. His dad was Japanese. And I say to him, „You know,
sometimes I think we liberated the Japanese.‟ And he said, „My dad said the
same thing. They liberated us.‟”
(1:26:12) “Yes.”
(1:26:18) “This is what surprised us, they greeted us. And we weren‟t scared
of them either. I mean we were afraid they were going to be, the way they
fought. They were treacherous. But the way they acted then, they weren‟t.”
(1:26:34) “Another thing you had mentioned another time was the
number of women and children and lack of men.”
(1:26:43) “Yeah.”
(1:26:46) ”I mean, who was doing the work? Who was doing the
cleaning up and all that?”
(1:26:51) “Well, I don‟t think Japan had too many men left. Even their suicide
planes, they were training sixteen-year-olds, to fly.”
(1:27:02) “When did it finally end for you? You left Japan and where
did you go from there?”
(1:27:10) “Oh, boy!! Probably back to Leyte, back to the Philippines. We went
to Tau Beach quite often, because there‟s where an awful lot of our staging
areas was for that part of the war.”

�(1:27:31) “But then finally, what, back to the States?”
(1:27:35) “Yeah. Well, then we started hauling troops back. They called that
the magic carpet duty.”
(1:27:46) “Why was it the magic carpet duty?”
(1:27:49) “Because we was magic…we were going home! We started hauling
troops back and then we had to re-do our ship to a certain extent but then we
got rid of most of our landing crafts. I still had one because I was transferred.
They broke up the landing craft crew and put what they needed back out on the
deck force or in the engine room or wherever they could use them. And a
certain amount of them, the guys that had more time in, they were getting
discharged. But then we made our cargo crews over into apartment crews,
hauling troops. They put up, well actually, made them bunks or just a piece of
pipe bent around with canvas waste in the center. And they were hanging on
chains and hinged on one side. And we stacked them eight high.”
(1:28:55) “In these cargo areas.”
(1:29:04) “Where did you arrive back to the States? San Francisco.”
(1:29:07) “San Francisco.”
(1:29:08) “What was your reaction seeing that San Francisco bridge?”
(1:29:10) “See I‟d had the privilege in being back there after we‟d been to Asia.
So, it‟s always a pretty sight. The thing that always bothers, confuses people as
much as anything is that every day the sun comes up the west and went down in
the east. As soon as I got away from that bridge, I got my directions turned
around. I did that every time I went across. Everything was just backwards. So
when I read my compass, I had to read it backwards.”
(1:29:46) “That‟s amazing.”
(1:29:49) “I was going the wrong direction, but I got there.”
(1:29:53) “Now eventually you got discharged and on your way home.
How did you get back to Grand Rapids?”
(1:30:01) „Well, in the first place, I got hurt onboard before I came. So then I
went to a hospital and Treasure Island for a while and then I came home on a
delay en-route. They gave me thirty days to go back to Great Lakes, so I came
home for thirty days and then went back to Great Lakes.‟

�(1:30:27) “Oh, okay.”
(1:30:33) “I didn‟t have quite enough points to get out, but I had too many to
be reassigned, so they just discharged me.”
(1:30:42) ”Let you go. So, you finally got home and your family was
there to greet you?”
(1:30:48) “Oh yes.”
(1:30:55) “The whole family?”
(1:30:53) “Yes.”
(1:30:58) “The brothers were back from the war?”
(1:31:03) ”No I had one that was stayed in. When I stay stayed in – he went
in, he was drafted that was, and he came out as captain. He seen he was a
captain, he had put in more time.”
(1:31:10) ”That‟s got to be a great homecoming.”
(1:31:13) “Oh, yeah. Came back in one piece. I‟ve got another little story
here. The neighborhood I lived in, we had a church there, a little country
church. And we had twenty-eight men from that, they had a flag, a star for each
man that was gone, twenty-eight of them and all twenty-eight came back. So
we were blessed. They all came back.”
(1:31:54) “Let me ask you one more question. How do you feel your
military experience, not necessarily your combat experience, but your
military experience shaped the person that you are today?”
(1:32:09) “I hope that it made me a better man. I don‟t know what I‟d have
been otherwise, but I think I have a little more respect for other people because
while when we were in the military, we weren‟t in there for the dollars in a
sense. I try to keep that same attitude today. It‟s a mental attitude. It taught
me to appreciate what I have. I saw people out there in those tropics, I‟ll go
backwards here a little ways. Being in the landing craft, we‟d get around some
of these islands where they were living in grass huts and that kind of stuff and
loincloths and then I get back and see what I have over what they had.”
(1:33:20) “Well, I want to thank you very much for sitting down with
me. I hope it wasn‟t too trying of an experience.”
(1:33:27) “Well, it wasn‟t trying for me. I appreciate it. I guess maybe it gave
me a chance to just sit down and tell my story.”
(1:33:33) “Good, good. I‟m glad to hear that.
(1:33:37) The end of Interview (Tape runs until 1:35:48)

�</text>
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                  <text>Smither, James&#13;
Boring, Frank</text>
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                <text>Fred Burgess is a World War II veteran who served in the U.S. Navy from June 23, 1944 to May 16, 1946. During the course of the interview he discusses in great detail his pre-enlistment, enlistment/basic training experience, and active duty in the South Pacific fighting against the Japanese. He describes in vivid detail the fighting on New Caledonia, Ulithe, Okinawa, in the Philippines, Saipan, and the suicide bomber attacks on the USS Franklin. He further goes into some detail about what the occupation of Japan was like. Burgess concludes by discussing what he got out of his military service.   </text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: World War II War
Interviewee name: James Burke, Sr.
Length of Interview: (00:34:26)
(00:20) Background Information








James was born in Pennsylvania on April 29, 1918
His father was a carpenter and his mother was a homemaker
There were 11 children in his family; 9 boys and 2 girls
James went to a small one room school house until he was in 5th grade
He then quit school to work and help support his family
James began working in a coal mine when he was 15 years old, but did not like the job
and quit a year later
He then moved to Michigan to live with his grandparents and began working in a plaster
mill

(5:15) Army Enlistment
 James had decided to join the Army after Pearl Harbor was attacked and enlisted in early
1942
 He was sent to Fort Meade in Maryland and lived in old WWI vintage barracks
 They got up early every day at the sound of a bugle and began calisthenics
 After completing boot camp James had time on leave to visit family
 James then went through leadership training and became a staff sergeant
(9:45) France
 After training James was sent to France in late 1944
 They landed in Le Havre where he fought his first battle
 James was in France after D-Day and fought in the Battle of the Bulge
 There were snipers all over the place in France and he was shot at and missed by many
Germans
 James was able to meet a few German civilians and the majority of them were nice
(15:45) Japan
 After spending time in France James had enough points to be sent home, but instead was
sent to Japan
 He was sent on a troop ship to the mainland where he served in the Army of Occupation

�



James and others began building bases and taking over many duties for the Japanese
Army
Some cities in Japan were completely devastated from the bombs and smelled very bad
Altogether James spent 3 years [probably 2 in US and 1 in Europe] in Europe and 3 in
Japan

(19:15) Back to the US
 James was sent back to the US in 1948 on a troop ship and landed in San Francisco
 Shortly after arriving in the US James got married and has now been married for almost
60 years
 He took a steam engine train back to Michigan
 James later moved back to Pennsylvania and again worked on a coal mine; he did not like
the job and moved back to Michigan 1 year later
 James is now living in the Grand Rapids Home for Veterans

�</text>
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Boring, Frank</text>
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Veterans History Project Interview
Carolyn Burkholder for Joe Burkholder
World War II
Total Time: 34:00
Childhood (00:12)
•
•
•
•
•
•
•

Born in Miami, Oklahoma in 1932.
Father owned a grocery store.
Was taught by her father to shoot.
Her father owned a lake property and they spent much of their time there.
Was young enough to not remember the events in the world during the 1930s
leading up to World War II.
Graduated High School in 1950.
Joe was the name of her husband, who was a participant in World War II. He was
born in 1924.

Husband’s Service (20:45)
•
•

The first time Joe talked to her about the service was after he choked her in her
sleep.
He was a medic in the Battle of the Bulge, and was on Omaha Beach.

Post-Service (22:30)
• During the 1950s, they would do different things for fun, such as going to Joplin,
Missouri, to have a drink, as Oklahoma was a dry state.
• Moved to Midland, MI to find a job at Dow Corning.
• Joe, her husband, developed Parkinson’s Disease.

�</text>
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                <text>Carolyn Burkholder was born in Miami, Oklahoma in 1932. Her husband served in World War II, specifically in the Battle of the Bulge, and landing on Omaha Beach. Her father was a grocer, and she moved to Michigan after the war to get a job at Dow Corning.</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans' History Project
David Burkholder
World War II
38 minutes 37 seconds
(00:00:21) Early Life
-Born in a house on Union Avenue in Grand Rapids, Michigan on September 21, 1926
-Had two older brothers and an older sister
-Catherine (oldest), Clayton, and Johnny
-Grew up in the house on Union Avenue until he was ten years old
-Moved to a house on Greenfield Avenue when he was ten years old
-First house that he lived in that had indoor plumbing
-Father was a postal clerk for the United States Postal Service for thirty years
-Helped him carry mail in the summers
-Went to Wyoming High School
-Quit school in the tenth grade to join the Navy
-Wanted to join because his older brothers were in the Navy
-Mother forbade it until he was eighteen
-Worked until he was old enough to enlist in the Navy
(00:03:09) Enlisting in the Navy
-When he was eighteen he joined the Hospital Corps of the Navy
-Enlisted in Detroit and took his physical there
-From there he was sent to Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois for basic training
-Primary motivation for enlisting was that his two older brothers were in the Navy
-Didn't want to wait to get drafted
-Hospital Corps seemed appealing
-After being in the Navy for six months he was given the chance to reenlist
-Added two years to his service and he could choose his specialization
-Decided to be an X-ray technician
(00:04:49) Basic Training
-It was fall 1944 when he got to Great Lakes Naval Station
-Had six weeks of basic training
-Normal course was six months, but it had to be condensed into six weeks
-Difficult as a result
-Discipline wasn't difficult for him to adjust to
-Parents had emphasized discipline growing up
-Had to keep uniforms neat and clean
-He taught another sailor how to properly wash his uniform
-Everyone made it through basic training
-Company commander was tough, but respected and a good man
-His training company was selected to be the flag company
-Meant that they were physically and mentally the best
-Life in the barracks was a different experience
-Had to scrub the floorboards with steel wool

�-Known as the "Great Lakes Shuffle"
(00:08:34) Hospital Corps Training Pt. 1
-Sent to Sampson, New York which is where he added two years to his enlistment
-From New York he was sent to San Diego, California for Hospital Corps training
-In Sampson, New York there was a hospital and he served as a corpsman
-Placed on watch in a ward
-A lot of wounded men were there and needed care
-Received his X-ray training in Bethesda Naval Hospital, Maryland
-There were 120 men in his graduating class
-He was the tenth in his class and was able to stay in Bethesda as a
technician
(00:10:52) Stationed in Bethesda Pt. 1
-Took care of admirals and other high ranking officers at Bethesda Naval Hospital
-Since he was a technician he was able to treat high ranking officers like any other
patient
-Remembers being able to order an admiral to receive X-rays
(00:11:38) Enlistment and Discharge Dates
-Enlisted on August 24, 1944
-Discharged on November 18, 1947
(00:11:54) Stationed in Bethesda Pt. 2
-Worked on men that had been wounded in the European Theatre
-A lot of the men from Europe were the worst cases that he experienced
-His job was to take X-rays so that radiologists could analyze the results
-Some men were sent back to fight after they recovered from their wounds
-Stationed at Bethesda Naval Hospital for a while
(00:13:03) Stationed aboard the USS Cadmus Pt. 1
-He volunteered for ship duty and was assigned to the USS Cadmus
-Docked one mile out from Norfolk, Virginia
-Far enough out that he could get sea pay
-Hurricane came in and they had to stay docked because a damaged ship was moored to
them
-It was rough
-Worst of it lasted between a half hour and an hour
-At one point the ship was listing forty five degrees
-Had an X-ray machine on the ship
-Administering to crewmen during routine checkups
-Dealing with sailors that had been wounded in accidents
-Remembers one sailor that was mortally wounded during a ship-ship resupply
-His head got caught between the two ships and he died shortly thereafter
-Had ship duties like cleaning if he wasn't doing medical work
(00:16:50) Downtime Pt. 1
-Had liberty when he was stationed at Bethesda Naval Hospital
-Could visit Washington D.C.
-When he was on the Cadmus, if he had liberty he would take a small boat to the shore
-Norfolk, Virginia was a pretty rough town at the time
(00:17:38) Living Conditions on the USS Cadmus

�-Food on the ship wasn't bad
-Had powdered eggs almost every day
-Remembers the sailors requesting fresh eggs from the cook
-Got "fresh" eggs, but by time they arrived they had spoiled
(00:18:14) Discipline on the USS Cadmus
-Remembers one sailor was cheating on his wife
-He thought he had caught a disease and went to the lab technicians
-To teach him a lesson, the technicians said that he had caught a disease
-Encouraged him to tell his wife what had happened
-A week later they told him that he was healthy and disease free
(00:19:15) End of Service Pt. 1
-He was on the Cadmus until he was discharged in November 1947
-Pressured to reenlist, but he declined
-As punishment, he had to chip paint on the ship for a week
(00:20:17) Stationed aboard the USS Cadmus Pt. 2
-There were forty to fifty men on the ship
-It wasn't a very large ship
-Note: The Cadmus was actually a very large ship with a crew of 921 men
(00:20:42) Downtime Pt. 3
-When he was on the Cadmus he spent a lot of time playing poker with the other men
-Ship's cook would bring them snacks and desserts while they were playing cards
-Drinking on the ship wasn't allowed
-Some of the men smoked
-Morale was good
(00:21:36) News of the War
-Got reports about the war's progress when he was on the ship
-Got a lot of news about the war when he was stationed at Bethesda Naval Hospital
(00:21:53) Contact with Family
-Oldest brother (Clayton) was on a Landing Craft Structure (LCS)
-Purpose was to draw fire so that battleships could pick out targets and fire on
them
-Johnny (second oldest brother) served aboard a destroyer-escort
-Escorted destroyers and would hunt/kill submarines that posed an immediate
threat
-Saw Clayton when he was training in San Diego
-Got to go into the city with him and see the naval base
-Saw Johnny a couple times when he was stationed on the East Coast
-Kept in touch with his brothers via letters
-Kept in touch with his parents and his sister with letters as well
-Looking back, believes they were all more worried than any of them realized
(00:24:20) Downtime Pt. 4
-Went to a couple USO Shows when he was training in San Diego
-One of his classmates wanted to help him learn how to dance
-After multiple failed attempts decided that David just didn't have any
rhythm

�(00:25:21) Hospital Corps Training Pt. 2
-Received basic Hospital Corps training at Balboa Park in San Diego, California
-During the war it was renamed Camp Kidd
-Only got onto the San Diego naval base when he was with Clayton
-The training in San Diego consisted of going to classes
-It wasn't easy, but it wasn't difficult either
-Enjoyed the training
(00:26:25) Life after the Service
-First job was at St. Mary's Hospital in Grand Rapids, Michigan
-Didn't get along well with the nuns though
-Went to the veterans' hospital in Grand Rapids
-Worked there for three or four years
-Decided to get into selling insurance
-Tried it for a while and realized that he just wasn't cut out to be a salesman
-Eventually went to work at the hospital in Sheridan, Michigan
-Worked there for three years
-Decided to become a minister
-Worked as Wesleyan minister for forty two years
-Pastored at a church in Munising, Michigan for three yeras
-Pastored at a church in Lakefield Township, Michigan for twenty seven
years
-Pastored at a church in Washington Court House, Ohio for twelve years
-Retired from the ministry after that
-Returned to Grand Rapids
-Used the GI Bill to take a couple flying lessons
-Quit after his wife got sick
-Met his future wife at vacation Bible school when he was twelve years old
-Her name was Jackie
-She died on December 5, 2010
-Had lost touch with her when he was in the Navy and reconnected with her afterwards
-Got married in 1948
-Had two sons named Ron and Jim
-Jim served in the Michigan National Guard
-Ron served in the Army and was stationed in Germany
(00:32:06) Reflections on Service
-Proud to have had the chance to serve
-Navy was instrumental in teaching him about X-rays and provided him with a decade of
work
-Glad to have been able to help the men that had been wounded in combat
-Taught him that he was fortunate to not have wound up in a combat zone
-Opportunity to see parts of the country he may not have gotten to see
-Allowed him the chance to go on the Talons Out Honor Flight to Washington D.C.
-Talon's Out Honor Flight: Non-profit organization to take veterans to
Washington D.C.
-Interesting to see how the city had changed
-Navy had an overall positive effect on his life

�-Learned to appreciate the men that had sacrificed so much in the war
-Honor to work with them and help them
-Made some long lasting friendships
-One of his friends was able to get him a tour of the USS Missouri
-Got to see where the Japanese Instrument of Surrender was signed
-Naval service qualified him for free medical aid and medicine later in life

�</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Shirley Burkovich
Length of Interview: (00:41:38)
Interviewed by: James Smither PhD., Grand Valley State University Veterans History
Project.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer February 8, 2010
Interviewer: “Shirley, can you start by telling us a little bit about your background,
where and when you were born?”
I was born in Pittsburg, PA and raised in a town just east of Pittsburg, Swissvale, went to
school there and graduated from there.
Interviewer: “What did your family do for a living?”
My mom was a housewife and my dad worked in the steel mills.
Interviewer: “You were born in the early thirties---did your father keep his job in
the steel mills as you were growing up?”
Yes, he worked there all the time. 1:57
Interviewer: “The town that you were actually in, was it an industrial town, a
smaller one?”
A small town just outside of Pittsburg, a suburb of the city.
Interviewer: “When did you start playing ball?”
I started playing ball, I guess, as long as I can remember. When I was small, we had a
large back yard and that’s how I started, by hitting the ball up against the house, doing it
that way and then I graduated to the vacant lots and the streets and alleys of the city.
2:31
Interviewer: “Whom did you play with?”
Well, as you know, at that time there were no girl’s leagues or organizations, so you just
went out and picked up a bat and a glove and you went to a vacant lot and you picked up
with the boys. It was always the boys.
Interviewer: “There weren’t any other girls that would play?”
Not in my area, there were a couple girls that lived in an adjacent town that played, but in
my city there was just me.
Interviewer: “Did you have brothers that played?”

1

�I had a brother and he did play ball. He played in high school and then he played softball
on men’s fast softball, so I kind of hung around with them as the “bat girl”. 3:21 They
used me to shag fly balls because then they could stand up there and bat all day. I was
the shagging of the fly balls and ten at the end of their session; I got a chance to hit.
Interviewer: “So you got reasonable practice at a variety of different things?”
A lot of practice.
Interviewer: “Now, did you do sports in high school?”
No sports in high school, at least not for the girls. 3:44 I didn’t really do anything, we
got to use the gym during our lunch hour because that’s when the boys didn’t use it, so
the girls would go on there and play basketball.
Interviewer: “The school didn’t have girls teams at all?”
The school did not have girls teams.
Interviewer: “How did you first hear about women in baseball?”
My brother is the one that actually heard about it, not heard about it, but read about it. He
read about it in the newspaper that they were holding tryouts for the “All American girls
Professional Baseball League” and he came to me and he said, “hey, what do you think
about this? They’re holding tryouts for a baseball league.” And oh gosh, I said, “I don’t
know”, I was sixteen years old and I said, “I don’t know if I’m good enough to play.”
4:35 He said, “Well, let’s go down and see”, so he took the day off of work and we went
down to the park where they were holding the tryouts and we sat in the stands and the
two of us kind of critiqued the girls playing and he said, “what do you think?” I said,
“well, I think I’ll give it a try” and he said, “good”, so I went down and had the tryout
and a couple of weeks later I got a telegram to report to spring training in Cape
Girardeau, Missouri. 5:11
Interviewer: “What did they have you do in the tryouts?”
For the tryouts, it was hit, run, throw, things like that, just an overall example of what you
were capable of I’m assuming. How fast you ran, how well you threw, how your batting
was.
Interviewer: “How long did they spend on you?”
We were there for a couple of days because there were a lot of girls there. I would say
that there were over a hundred girls at the tryout. Most of them were from the Pittsburg
area, but we did have some girls that came from out of state—West Virginia, Ohio,
adjoining states, so we had a big turnout. It was a couple—if I remember, it was a twoday tryout. 6:07
Interviewer: “When exactly was this?”

2

�This was in 1948, late “48” in the late summer of “48” and then I didn’t actually report
for spring training until April of “49”, the next year.
Interviewer: “Were you in high school at that time?”
I was still in school and actually, when I got the telegram to go, that’s school time, so my
mom went to the school and we talked to the principle and explained the situation and
asked if it would be possible for me to leave school, because it was two months, April
and May, because school was out in June, so April and May. He looked at my grades and
he said, “ok”, but that they would have to send the lessons along with me and I would
have to complete those lessons back for those two months, which I was willing to do for
that opportunity. 7:28 Then my mom, she said, “now wait a minute, I don’t know about
this All American Girls Baseball League, I never heard of that”, and here I’m going out
of state down to some Cape Girardeau in Missouri which we never heard of and she said,
“I don’t know if I just want to let you go by yourself”. My dad was working, my brother
was working, so she bought a ticket and went on the train with me and we went down to
Cape Girardeau and she met the chaperone and met the manager and everything and she
stayed for two days and saw that everything was on the up and up and that they weren’t
taking me down to some place that she didn’t think was proper. 8:20 Then she left, left
me there and actually the chaperone was Helen Campbell, who you were going to
interview in California maybe.
Interviewer: “I would like to be able to.”
It would be wonderful if you could.
Interviewer: “We have interviewed quite a few members of the league at this point
and may of them were very young when they first signed up, high school age. I
think you are about the first one that had a parent enterprising enough to go along
and check it all out first. 8:56 Were you, at this point, assigned to a specific team
or were you going to a general spring training where they would assign you?”
I just went to a general training and then I was assigned to the “Muskegon Lassies”.
Interviewer: “Tell me a little bit about the spring training itself. Do you have any
idea why they were in Cape Girardeau?”
No, that is what the telegram said, so that’s where I went. 9:22
Interviewer: “It may have been less expensive than Florida. What was the weather
like when you were there?”
It was nice as I remember. It was—I don’t remember unusual weather.
Interviewer: “It might have been better than Pittsburg anyway.”
Probably.
Interviewer: “What did they have you do there, at spring training?”

3

�Training, It’s like most spring trainings, I would think, we had practice everyday, betting
practice, fielding practice, they put you in different positions to how you worked in
outfield, infield, batting things like that, running the bases, sliding, just general things and
as we went along we had coaches, managers that would critique our performances I’m
sure, because they would come up to you and say, “ok now, maybe if you held the bat a
little bit this way”, or did this or did that or fielding, they hit you a hundred ground ball or
something to see how your arm was. 10:39
Interviewer: “What did you think of the quality of the players you were seeing
there?”
They were better players than what I was playing against when I was playing in vacant
lots and even the boys and that’s whom I was playing against. These girls were good, no
question about it. I realized that I was in touch competition and if I was going to make
this team, I was going to have to perform. 11:06
Interviewer: “Did you feel you sort of had to work harder than some of them or
were they all working pretty hard?”
I think everybody was working hard and I think all the girls were dedicated. We had a
strong passion for the game, everybody was trying to do their best, trying to make the
team and it was a very competitive spring training. You could see everyone you were
playing against –you knew what you had to compete against and what you had to beat.
11:45
Interviewer: “What proportion of the people trying out actually made it onto the
teams?”
That I don’t remember how many out of that group that went to spring training. I know
we all separated and I went to Muskegon and some of the other girls went to different
teams and I don’t know who didn’t make it or was cut, but I’m sure some of them were
because I was told that this was like another tryout. It was spring training, but it was
another tryout. 12.23
Interviewer: “The movie version of things, at least in that first season, they had
scene where people get to see names up on a board of who makes it and who doesn’t.
You didn’t see anything like that?”
I didn’t see anything like that.
Interviewer: “How did you find out where you were assigned?”
They just came to you and told you that you were assigned to the Muskegon lassie team
and they gave you a ticket to Muskegon and you got on the train and you went.
Interviewer: “Had you ever heard of Muskegon, Michigan before?”
Nope.

4

�Interviewer: “What impression did you have of the place when you got there?”
Well, like I said, this was the first time that I had actually been away from home by
myself and it was an experience for me at sixteen years old.
A lot of new friends, new people, so it was an experience for me. 13:14
Interviewer: “Where did they put you up once you got there?”
When I got to Muskegon, I met the chaperone who was Helen, and the chaperone
assigned the girls to host homes and there were two of us to a home and we roomed
together, so she had a place set up for each of us.
Interviewer: “Was it a nice place to stay? Did they treat you well?”
Oh, the people were wonderful, I tell you, they couldn’t have been nicer, it was almost
like being at home. 14:00 They took care of us, they made sure we had—I remember
when we came home from road trips there would be a note on the table telling us there
were sandwiches in the refrigerator and for us to help ourselves. They were just so nice
and they came to the games and supported us and it was just very homey, if we needed
anything—that type of thing. 14:25
Interviewer: “Did you stay with Muskegon for that whole season?”
Yes, I stayed with Muskegon for the whole 1949 season and then after that season, they
asked—they didn’t ask, they told you who you go to and I went on a touring team, which
was the Springfield Sally’s and the Chicago Colleens that toured the United States, the
eastern part of the United States. 14:54 The two teams toured together and we traveled
into the east.
Interviewer: “I’ll get into the barnstorming, but I want to go back to Muskegon in
the meantime. What kind of ball park facility did you have there to play in?”
Well, it was a nice stadium. The only thing I remember about it is from the dugouts back
to the club house, you went under the stands and I can remember, I was a little bit taller
than most girls, so I had to stoop going under the stands, I remember that, but it was a
nice ball park.
Interviewer: “What were the stands like? Were they open bleachers and could
people throw things down on you when you went by?”
Oh no, we were under the stands. 15:51 It was under the stands.
Interviewer: “At that point how many different teams were you playing? Were
there five or six in the league at that time or was it bigger?”
Let’s see—I think there were eight teams at that time, in the league.
Interviewer: “Now, how well did Muskegon do that year?”

5

�We didn’t do well. As I remember. I don’t remember exactly, but I know we weren’t in
the championship series. We weren’t in the championship game. 16:25
Interviewer: “Now when you were playing, what position or positions would you
play?”
I was, I guess you call it, a utility player. I played infield, I played the outfield, so I kind
of filled a hole somewhere. Whenever someone wanted to sit down or someone was hurt
or whatever, I played that, so I played right field, left field, center field and I played all
the infield positions. Played first base, second base.
Interviewer: “Did you ever try pitching?”
I didn’t remember pitching, but my last year in Rockford, I noticed in one of the stats that
it said that I pitched one game. I think it was a no decision and it was just a few innings,
so it must have been one of those games that were runaways and they just put me in, but
in the league, anybody that could throw hard, they had them on the mound to see. Of
course, some of didn’t have the control, we threw hard, but we didn’t have the control
and that maybe we threw hard, but we didn’t have the control. 17:34
Interviewer: “Did you have a favorite position of the ones you took?”
You know I really didn’t, I was just so happy to have the opportunity to play. I didn’t
care where I played, just put me on.
Interviewer: “ In that first season, how regularly did you play?”
I played, I thought, pretty regularly. I was in and out of the lineup, some games I didn’t,
if no one was out or hurt, I didn’t play, but I got into a few games.
Interviewer: “How many position players would they normally have on one of these
teams?”
Well, we carried eighteen players I think, on the roster.
Interviewer: “All players including the pitchers?”
Yes, the regular roster was about eighteen players.
Interviewer: “Then you would have a regular opportunity to get in there.”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Did they do much in the way of pinch hitting or pinch running or
relieving people for defensive reasons and that kind of stuff? Were the
replacements made during the game?”
Oh yes, like you said, pinch hitting and pinch runners and things like that. Position
changes 18:44
Interviewer: “How good of a hitter were you?”

6

�Well, you know, I wasn’t a homerun hitter, I wasn’t a power hitter, I was more of a
singles hitter, more of a hit and run. I got a lot of run signs. I got a lot of sacrifice signs.
Move the runner along, hit to right, move a runner from second to third, that type of
hitting.
Interviewer: “Did you strike out much?”
I don’t know, I probably had my share.
Interviewer: “If you’re a good bat handler then you’re getting---“
I was pretty good at bunting; I was able to lay down a pretty fair and decent bunt I think.
19:33 Like I said, I was more of a placement—placing the ball rather than a homerun
hitter or a power hitter.
Interviewer: “Now, at the time you came into the league, how strict were they at
enforcing all the rules that they had come up with at the start?”
Well, as far as strictness in enforcing the rules, if you played for Helen, you followed the
rules. She ran a tight ship. Coming out of the marines, as a sergeant in the marines, she
was pretty strict with us and especially the teenagers and those of us that were teenagers.
The older girls, she probably wasn’t as strict with and that, but those of us that were
teenagers, she kept a pretty good watch on us. 20:32 I remember one time—we were
allowed to go out if some of the fans or someone would ask us out for dinner or
whatever. This young fellow asked me if he could take me out to dinner and I said to
him, “you will have to ask the chaperone”, because us teenagers had to ask permission
and he said, “that’s fine, that’s not a problem”, so I told Helen that we were going to go,
so he went in and talked to Helen and he came out and he was smiling and he said to me,
“I didn’t want to marry you, I just wanted to take you out to dinner”, so I think she gave
him the third degree. That’s just some of way it was. 21:30
Interviewer: “Did he, in fact, take you out at that point?”
Oh yes.
Interviewer: “Good, she didn’t scare him away completely then?”
Oh no, but it was a funny situation.
Interviewer: “Now, were you traveling around by bus at that point on your road
trips?”
Yes, by bus.
Interviewer: “What was that experience like?”
The buses were really nice. Some people use to say, “how did you do it? Those long bus
rides and all?” You know, when you’re sixteen years old and you’re doing something
you like to do, that was the least of my concerns, the bus ride. It was fun, it was a lot of
camaraderie with the girls, we had good times, we had a lot of laughs, it was a joking
time and just a lot of fun, so I never minded the bus rides. 22:23

7

�Interviewer: “I guess that was a good thing because you wound up in the barn
storming thing the next year. Tell us a little bit about how that worked and what
that was like.”
Ok, that, we would go into a city for usually a three game series and would play three
games in that city and after that we would move on to another etc. That was strictly
living out of a suitcase for those months. Doing your laundry in the hotel Laundromat
and things like that. We would stay at motels and places like that and then the bus ride
and so that was, like I say, more living out of a suitcase than when you were on a team
like Muskegon where you were home and then on the road. 23:16
Interviewer: “If you had to pick, which one would you like better?”
It didn’t matter to me, I was playing baseball that was my passion, that’s what I love to
do and either one of those worked fine for me.
Interviewer: “How far a field did you travel when you were on this barnstorming
tour?”
We traveled through the eastern part of the United States mostly, it was just a month or
two before the season ended, I broke my ankle, so that ended my season there, but it was
mostly the eastern part of the United States, through Ohio, Maryland, West Virginia,
Pennsylvania, places like that. 24:09
Interviewer: “Did you go farther south? Did you go down to Florida or over to
Louisiana or places like that?”
No, we were more in the eastern, kind of mid Atlantic area.
Interviewer. “I guess there were two seasons where those teams went around on a
barnstorming tour. Yours was the second one.”
Right, the first one in 1949. I was not on, but I on in 1950.
Interviewer: “Did you make it up as far as New York city when you were doing
that?”
That’s what I was just going to say, that about a month or so before we got there, I broke
my ankle and I missed playing in Yankee Stadium, they played in Yankee Stadium and I
missed that. 24:57
Interviewer: “Did you go to some big cities when you were on this tour or mostly
small ones?”
They were mostly small ones, all small cities.
Interviewer: “What kind of crowds did you get when you went to these places?”
We got good crowds. Attendance wise, I don’t know, a thousand, tow thousand, but we
had good crowds. We drew very well, we were advertised, you know it was advertised,

8

�and we did radio interviews and things like that, so you know, they knew we were there
and I think too it was maybe a curiosity thing where people just came out to see if we
could really play ball. 25:43
Interviewer: Did you do a lot of publicity things of different kinds? Were you
interviewed on the radio yourself?”
Yes, they use to interview us that was part of our job, to promote the league and so yes,
we did radio interviews, newspaper interviews, because they would have pictures in the
paper and they would have advertisements in the paper, so yes, we did a lot of PR stuff.
26:13
Interviewer: “You said you broke your ankle, now how did you break your ankle?”
It was a—it rained that day and we played that evening. Of course the field was covered,
the infield was covered, but the grass was wet and because of our bases, which were
shorter than the ninety-foot men’s bases, it brought the bases just to the edge of the grass
of the infield. I was sliding into third base and the grass was wet and my spike caught in
the grass and I slid and you know that wet grass wrapped around that spike and my foot
stopped, but I went. 27:02
Interviewer: “Now, once that happened, did they send you home?”
Yes, I was in the hospital for a couple of days while they set the ankle and then I went on
home.
Interviewer: “Had you gone home between those seasons? Did you go home on the
off-season?
Oh, yes, but during the season, no.
Interviewer: “So, the ankle heals eventually, did you back in then for another
year?”
The next year in 1951, I went back and I was assigned to Rockford, the peaches. I spent
my last season with Rockford.
Interviewer: “Was that a better team than the Muskegon team?”
Well, they were—Rockford was kind of the crème of the crop, if you want to say, but
they were a good team, yes. That was a great experience, I played with some great ball
players on that team, but that Muskegon team, I don’t want to downgrade them because,
listen, all the girls that played in that league were terrific, just wonderful, they had to be
the best ball players that we had in the states. 28:25
Interviewer: “Sure, anybody on any major league baseball team today is going to
play a whole lot better than me, even when I was a lot younger. “Who were some of
the best players that you played alongside?”

9

�Oh gosh, Dotty Kavichek, Shorty Prior, Doris Sams, Mickey McGuire, Jean Fout, just
like I say, you could just go on and on with these girls, they were just good ball players.
28:58
Interviewer: “now, when you were with Rockford, did Rockford make the playoffs
that year?”
I can’t remember if we made the playoffs.
Interviewer: “I think South Band won the championship that year.”
I think south Bend, but I don’t think Rockford made the playoffs that year. I don’t know,
maybe I was a jink to them. The teams that I played for, we never made the playoffs.
Interviewer: “Now, in Rockford, when you were living there, did you have the same
kind of a set-up as you had in Muskegon?”
Same set-up as Muskegon. We lived in host homes and had a roommate and played, but
the people in Rockford, again just like Muskegon; the people were just wonderful to us,
just wonderful. 29:48
Interviewer: “Did you have a chaperone as tough as the first one?”
No, no, I don’t think there was anyone like Helen. Helen had to be the—I only had three
chaperones, the ones from the touring team and Helen and then Dotty Green in Rockford,
but Helen had to be my favorite, my favorite.
Interviewer: “In general, how well did you adjust to the rules and the expectations
of the league? Was it fairly natural for you did you or not?”
Well, adapting to them was easy because I didn’t want to do anything wrong, anything to
get me off the team and you know, some of the girls would miss curfew and things like
that, but there was no way that I was ever going to do that. I wasn’t ever going to do
anything that would jeopardize my chance to play baseball, so I followed the rules to the
letter. 30:54
Interviewer: “You were probably happy that you had somebody that was very clear
about what the rules were?”
Yes, probably.
Interviewer: “Now you only played in the league for three years, was it your own
choice not to come back for 1952?”
Yes, in 1951, I could see that the league was not going to last. Things were—the crowds
were not as good and a lot of the teams were in financial trouble and I had an opportunity
to get a job at that time and I had to decide between that opportunity to take that job or go
back for maybe another one season or maybe two, I didn’t know how long it was going to
last and so I thought, well, I think I better set myself up for job that I had a little security.
32:04

10

�Interviewer: “What job did you take?”
I had a chance to go to work for the telephone company and I went down and interviewed
for the telephone company and got the position and went to work for the telephone
company. I spent thirty years with them and retired in 1983. It probably was the best
decision that I made.
Interviewer “Now where were you working for the telephone company?”
In California. I got time—after the 1951 season, I finished the 1951 season, I came to
California and I spent the next year just kind of getting my priorities together—what am I
going to do? In 1953 I took a job with the telephone company and stayed on with them.
33:03
Interviewer: “What prompted you to go to California in the first place?”
I had family out there. My brothers and sister were living out there at the time and I liked
it. I had been out there in 1948 for a vacation and I liked it and so when I finished
playing ball I thought, “I think I’ll go back to California”.
Interviewer: “during the time that you were actually playing, did you have any
kind of sense that you were doing something kind of unusual or significant that
women were out there doing this sort of thing or were you just focused on playing
the game?
Playing the game. You know when we—when I first went into the league, I thought that
this had to be the greatest thing that ever happened to me and I didn’t care about anything
except playing and having that opportunity, so as far as thinking to myself that this is
something special, I never did. In fact until the day left the league, I never thought it
was anything special, I didn’t see any need to talk about it or tell anybody. 34:24
Someone would say, “you played baseball”, well, some people say, ‘who cares”, and
most people thought it was softball and everything, so it was just never anything that was
brought up in conversations or whatever, so it just went by the wayside as something you
did, it was over with and even though it was something that I thought was going to be my
career. I was sixteen years old and I thought I could play until I was thirty-five or forty
and thought it was my career. I planned on nothing else, I didn’t go on to college, didn’t
do anything and I thought that it was my career and when I quit, I thought “that was it, I
did it and it’s done”. 35:17
Interviewer: “After that you go to work and what kind of work did you do for the
phone company?”
I started out as an operator and then my last year, and I went through several departments,
and ended up in the engineering department when I retired.
Interviewer: “You got a career for yourself and you’re out in California, which is a
somewhat kind of progressive place, and you go into the sixties and the seventies,
you got a women’s movement going and the push for things like Title Nine and all
kinds of stuff going on, were you paying much attention to any of that, or were you

11

�thinking of how the women’s baseball league related to that or were you not putting
those pieces together at that time?” 36:00
We started working with other ex-major league ball player on free clinics for girls and
boys. The clinics use to be strictly for the boys and then we started going out and saying
in these clinics, “girls and boys”, and there was a group of us, some ex-dodgers and exAngels that they put together this group called “Sports Educators of America”, and we
went out, this was just in the Southern California area, and we would go out and do these
free baseball clinics for the kids and we would try to incorporate education and sports.
Telling the kids that education is just as important because you ask the kids, “who wants
to be a major league ball player?” Well, everybody raises their hand, so then you say to
then, “well, all right, there are 700 positions in major league baseball, what if you don’t
make it, then what?” so we tell them that they’ve got to have something to fall back on,
so we start stressing education in sports to these kids trying to encourage them to stay in
school and have a back-up just in case they don’t make it in the baseball world. 37:27 I
can always relate to that because that’s what happened to me. I thought baseball was
always going to be my career and I didn’t plan for anything else. Fortunately, I got a job
at the telephone company and at that time the companies were more like families. They
weren’t like they are today where your just a number. The telephone company was like a
family, so I had the opportunity to work for them, but to now days not have a back-up, so
that’s what we have been doing now for the last ten or fifteen years, going out to these
clinics and working with young people. 38:19
Interviewer: “How did you wind up hooking up with the men players, but I guess
this is something that maybe happened after the movie “A League of Their Own”
came out?
Right.
Interviewer: “How important was the movie in terms of drawing attention to that
past or having you revisit it or think about it again?”
The movie was everything. Had it not been for the movie we would have still been
obscure. The Cooperstown, that to the ball players, that Cooperstown event was, as far as
I’m concerned, was the most important thing, to be recognized by the Hall of Fame
men’s organization and to be recognized by them in their facility. It was the greatest
thing that ever could have happened to us. 39:19 That was just ball players that had
that, but when the movie came out, that brought it out to the public, brought it out to the
world and that’s what brought us out to the public eye. If it hadn’t been for Penny
Marshal and that movie, we would have known what we thought with the hall of Fame,
but the public would not have known, so yes, the movie was everything.
Interviewer: “What do you think you took out of that experience of playing
professional ball? Did it change you?”

12

�Not only did it change me, but I learned so much about team work, camaraderie, trust in
people, it was just a wonderful experience and I don’t think I could have gotten that from
any other profession that I would have gotten into like I got from that league. 40:33
Interviewer “I’m not sure how you really could in exactly the same way. There
wasn’t anything else like it and for a very long time after. We now have the WNBA
etc., but that’s much more modeled along the way these modern media oriented
teams and things are done. The kind of experience and the closeness that you had as
a group and that sort of thing may be something that didn’t really repeat it’s self in
other places.
I don’t think so. I got so much satisfaction out of the league and we still, as you see, we
still have friendships that have lasted for sixty years. 42:21
Interviewer: “What was it like coming to the reunions and getting involved with
this group and seeing people that maybe you had played with or trained with and
after all those years, there they were again?
My first reunion was—they started earlier in Chicago and I never went to any of those
because I was in California and I just never went, but in 1988 they had a reunion in
Scottsdale Arizona and that was kind of right next door, so I thought it was a good
opportunity for me to go over to Arizona and just—well, I haven’t missed one since and
it has just been such a wonderful experience. 42:08 The first time , that was the first
time seeing these gals after, at that time, forty years and just the expressions on our faces
when we met each other and saw each other for the first time, I just can’t explain it, how
it was.
Interviewer: “It sounds like it was a remarkable experience on the whole and you
tell your story well, so thank you for coming in.
You’re welcome. 42:38

13

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