1 24 26017 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c4f0b6906a50546cbd2e4c0ab47d6010.mp4 393c3b012831c9faf054e7c5f99a0ff8 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/456ee4d5ea78a67510f37b38df3fea51.pdf fbe60dce181af268ac53cf96079449d2 PDF Text Text Living with PFAS Interviewee: Grant Medich Interviewer: Dani DeVasto Date: December 11, 2025 Dani DeVasto (DD) (00:03): All right. I am Dani DeVasto, and today, December 11th, 2025, I have the pleasure of speaking with Grant Medich. Hi, Grant. Grand Medich (GM) (00:13): Hi, Dani. DD (00:15): Grant, can you tell me about where you're from and where you currently live? GM (00:20): Okay. Well, um, I was born in Indiana, but from a young age, uh, grew up in, uh, the locale of White Pigeon Michigan, which is in St. Joe County, uh, just north of the Indiana border. Um, and I am now living just north of Kalamazoo and, uh, Prairieville Township, which is the Southernmost, actually, I think it's the south southern southwestern-most township in Barry County, uh, just north of Kalamazoo again. DD (00:53): How long have you GM (00:54): For, I think it was 21 years. DD (00:57): Okay. So you were in Rockford 21 years. How long have you been in Prairieville Township? GM (01:02): The past four years. Yeah. DD (01:04): Okay. Um, Grant, can you tell me a story about, uh, PFAS, your experience with PFAS or with PFAS in your community? GM (01:15): Well, it's funny because we concentrate a lot on PFAS now is our, you know, with the whole, uh, issue. Well, not, not in just the Rockford associated community, but, uh, since I'm <laugh>, I'm no longer in Rockford, I'm no longer part of the community. I'm Rockford associated, I'd say. Um, but how we got, uh, concentrated on PFAS is interesting because it wasn't PFAS at the beginning. It was, it was a, uh, collo, uh, factory, which happened to be a tannery, and it was, which, which was closing down. And, uh, 1 �we knew there had been processing chemicals, and our focus was on hexavalent, well, chromium, which we were worried about the hexavalent, uh, uh, chromium. And as we got more into it and certain things are controlled or not, we found PFAS was as big, if not a bigger issue. And so, uh, I guess that's part of the story that our concerns about, um, a cleanup operation or, or a, uh, really it's a factory decommissioning operation. Uh, we wanted to see it done in a, uh, environmentally friendly way, not just for the local community, but as it's on the Rogue River, which runs through Rockford is a tributary to the Grand River. It would affect everybody downstream from that point. So, uh, again, we were focused on one issue and found, uh, PFAS was another issue. And then we found other communities were struggling with the same, same, uh, concerns. DD (03:10): So how did you come to be involved or concerned with the tannery demolition? GM (03:18): Okay. Uh, well, the tannery as is most older, um, installations are, was really a series of buildings. And, uh, the company, Wolverine Worldwide, which, uh, was the name of the company in, in charge of it at that time, they were pretty much, they weren't ever bought out by anybody, but they, that was their, um, the company name they had for quite some time. Um, they had basically, uh, continual ownership of that. And so there wasn't a case where one company bought, you know, another company's assets and liabilities. We thought, well, uh, this was founded in Rockford by people who lived in Rockford and just have a feeling that they kind of had a, an obligation besides providing jobs for so many years, uh, to decommission it you know, in a manner that didn't leave, uh, uh, leave it, um, to be a risk factor. GM (04:28): Um, but we found as they were beginning demolition, um, some of the, uh, issues involved were migratory dust. And, uh, shortly before we addressed this, uh, a couple of our streets in the downtown area started holding little meetings, um, kind of centered around the McIntosh, uh, family. Um, Mike and Lynn oftentimes hosted this, and there were a handful of other families, I think, I think, uh, my former wife and I hosted at least once. But when it became an issue that could be considered a bit more politically involved, which to us it wasn't ever a political issue, it was a, a health and safety issue. Uh, some of the families that have been involved in it all along, um, started being a little, little, uh, more, you know, circumspect and drew back from, from the continued meetings and along with the, uh, neighborhood association kind of spurned off, um, the, uh, uh, concerned citizens Association. GM (05:53): And so we would have separate meetings, basically the same, same core group for the better part. Uh, again, Lynn was instrumental in, in, uh, helping that happen, but she was always, uh, asking for help. And so, uh, we had, uh, Gail Mancewicz and I was involved in and out in various capacities, uh, selfemployed. Um, and so that gave me that freedom of interaction to where some days I was available midday and other people were not. They were at their, at their day jobs. Other times I wasn't, it was, I was in construction, so I wouldn't be available for a couple weeks because I was on a, you know, deep in a job. So that's how I became involved with that. And the more we, I don't know, I understand it. I mean, neighbors are neighbors and part of getting along with your neighborhood is, uh, being concerned for them, but not being too nosy. GM (06:52): 2 �And that is true also with corporate neighbors. So I think corporate neighbors, they like the idea of getting along with their neighbors, but they understand they are a corporation, and, uh, they can't be as chummy or, um, I mean, they, they go to their own homes and they have those neighbors, and so they, they can't really be double-dipping there. But when we get more into issues that they consider operations, um, related issues, uh, that's where it becomes none of our business, where if it's environmental, we do consider it, it is our business. Because at some point, um, Wolverine continues to be in, Wolverine Worldwide, continues to be located in Rockford. But my thought was, 'cause I had family members who worked for large corporations, and you have a change of CEO, and all of a sudden you're located in Denver or Chicago or Arizona. And, uh, even though they were a, had a long history in Rockford, I personally wasn't convinced that they just couldn't just pull up roots and get out of it. So that was kind of nature of my interest. And, and I lived right across the street from, uh, the building that remains, which is their shoe store. Yeah. But basically across the street from the, the factory complex DD (08:23): So was that a concern for you that they could leave? Or was that not a concern? GM (08:29): Uh, more concern of, well, my, you know, being in a small business that the, the, uh, scale of operations is vastly different, but I always figured there's a cost of doing business. And if they had done something that they didn't consider nefarious, but, um, over time was determined to be problematic, that cleaning up the, the residue is a deferred cost since they didn't do it, what we now consider right the first time. Or they didn't take care of, uh, spillage when it became known, but not publicized that they were dealing with hazardous chemicals that shouldn't get into groundwater. That's the time they should have dealt with it. And for it to be brought up to them at a later date, didn't negate the fact that they still had, uh, really an ethical responsibility to, um, have a clean and safe operation, not just for their workers or their consumers, but, uh, the people who worked there and lived nearby and, and their neighbors. DD (09:48): So, as someone who did live nearby, did you have any personal concerns about what was about to go down or what had gone down? GM (09:58): Well, I, I, in my, me and my family were rather blessed because we moved into our home in, uh, February of 1999. And, uh, we had city water, but that's the time when, uh, Rockford, uh, stopped drawing their city water from the river. Uh, and I believe it was downstream from the tannery. Um, and they started the deep well, um, deep well, uh, pumping system. And so my children, my family was never exposed to it, besides what it might have been residually located in the, uh, in the piping. Um, but it's, uh, been somewhat determined that ingesting PFAS is a little less issue than, um, inhaling it. And, uh, I always, I always kind of thought it odd too that, uh, the, when I was young, we always took baths. We didn't do showers, but at some point people started taking showers, and I thought, well, the aeriation of the mist in the water, maybe that became more of a health issue with issues like, or PFAS than, than just sitting in it, which is still not good for you, but seems less of an issue. But, yeah. So I had, uh, almost, oh, just kind of an ethical concern as a neighbor, um, of what, what the situation was there rather than a, a real health risk as we weren't exposed to it in that way. DD (11:46): 3 �You mentioned that, um, kind of as part of the, as someone who was able to stay and to, to be selfemployed, and you were perhaps more available at certain times than others, um, that you were asked for help. GM (12:00): Mm-hmm <affirmative>. DD (12:01): What kinds of things were you helping the, the citizens group, the concerned citizens do? Like, what, what was your role? What kinds of things were you doing? GM (12:11): Okay, well, um, early on, every now and then we would do, oh, maybe a little, a little walkabout, you know, take a look, uh, while during the, uh, demolition process, sometimes it's like, uh, Grant, what do you, you work in construction. What do you think of what's going on there? So I'd walk around and say, well, you know, they're, they're, they're spraying down the debris. This is a modern style of, uh, um, airborne dust containment. Uh, that's good. But, uh, you know, that, that, that definitely is, everything's supposed to be wet. And, and, uh, containable versus just spraying water in the area. One guy in the hose spraying in the corner of a parking lot, and they're working over there. That's not the idea, but they were pretty good about keeping the water on there. But every now and then, since these hoses were, didn't have a guy holding it, you know, it was an automated, uh, kind of a mount, and it was aerating the air while they, you know, migrate the work a little over, it's like, okay, you kind of, kind of keep that up. GM (13:22): But once the, the demolition crews knew the criteria there, and they had air monitors, they, they were able to keep on top of that. Um, other activities just was kind of us all familiarizing ourselves with things in the city that we never noticed before. Um, taking floats down the river in a boat, um, I mean, you walk down the sidewalk and you know, the same houses, but when you look at it with a different thought in your head, why is this this way? Or why is that there? Um, it gets you thinking about the potential problems and opportunities, like even the, the tannery, they, they talked about the, if there was the possibility of groundwater contamination, what were the options? And one of the more vocal, uh, I can't call him a Rockford, uh, resident or citizen because he lived in the townships, and this was a ongoing problem. GM (14:29): We had business owners that identified as being Rockford residents. I hate the term. I like citizen, not because I'm, I don't think-- it's politically charged. It means you live in a city, a citizen. I was a citizen of Rockford because I lived in the city of Rockford that didn't include the owner of the, you know, liquor store, the drug, you know, the drug store, the, the gas station. Unless they lived there, you know, I, I don't go into their townships and tell 'em how to run their, their business there. But, uh, other than weighing in on things that affect their business, I'd say, thank you, but no, thank you. We live here. You don't, we pay the taxes. You don't, so, you know, you take care of yours. We take care of ours. Um, but one of these more vocal people, he had an issue with the Brownfield in a property owned decades previously, and his thought was the only source of containment was that they were gonna pave it all over with asphalt capping it. 4 �GM (15:37): Well, when he used that term, I thought, well, capping it, it was already capped because there was a building there. It kept the rainfall from getting into the ground that was boom below with all the, the concrete pads and, you know, just flowing it into the water, um, to a, to a degree. Um, so removing the building kind of removed that cap and breaking up the found, uh, the, the, uh, paving, interior paving, uh, concrete pads did the same. So it all became an issue there. But as we looked more and more into it, and Lynn would talk, um, primarily Lynn would do a lot of interviews with other people, we found a lot of the sludge had been taken to other areas, which became almost bigger problems than the actual downtown area, which was the source of the pollution. So that was some of it, walking about, uh, taking a look at things, um, keeping an eye out, and meetings, meetings. GM (16:38): When we finally decided to write, uh, the petition to the EPA, um, I always remember the old movie, or not movie, it was a movie, actually, <laugh> after the song, Alice's Restaurant by Arlo Guthrie, where he talks about getting, um, arrested for littering. And this sheriff had a, a photograph with a paragraph with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one. And he would say this over and over again, explaining what the issue was. And this is Lynn <laugh>, she, these, all these photographs with, you know, arrows and circles and a paragraph <laugh> actually below, below each one. You know, it was so detailed. But, you know, getting it into a communicatable understandable, uh, presentation was a, a bit of, a bit of a challenge. We knew photographs are great if people know what you're photographing. You gotta explain what it is. GM (17:38): You gotta explain why it's important, and that you're not putting in additional photographs just to fill the air and make it seem like, oh, the sky is falling. These are, you know, we're, we're documenting conditions that happened. So, uh, sitting down, and usually the writing would happen by, uh, by, uh, Lynn and Gail. But, uh, I would, I would sit down, we would review what we went, what they had gone through, uh, you know, make some, some comments there. And, uh, those two kind of claim <laugh> that I would, that I'd be referee between the two, because they spent a lot of time together without me <laugh>. And then I would end up there. And so, like, almost like sisters, they would get a little, a little too personal with each other. Not, not, not in a heated way, but it's a little frustration because it was, you know, it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. Well, you're, you being a writer. Yeah. When you collaborate, it's, it's hard enough to write alone, but collaborate. DD (18:43): It can be a challenge! GM (18:45): Yeah, does have some help. Yeah. There's some of the things I was involved with, though. DD (18:50): When did, so tell me a little bit more about the petition. I know that you, so you were, you just said you were part of helping to write it, review it. Um, tell me about, like, so the petition gets accepted, right? Like, and then tell me about like how that was, what your reaction was to that, um, like kind of the fallout from the petition getting accepted. 5 �GM (19:23): Yeah. So that was a whole, you know, a whole process of course. But as I remember, we had, um, a good number of, uh, names. I mean, there were, to my recollection dozens that, um, subscribed to it. And these are people that were familiar with the issue, uh, both people living, uh, nearby and, uh, people in the general area, um, who were, you know, wanting this to be addressed. But, uh, there were, we, we realized it would be a publicly accessible document, and that, uh, there were perhaps some parts of it that certain people supporting it would not want to, uh, have their name divulged. So we knew there'd have to be some, uh, people name who, who had names on the, on the front of it. And Lynn was fine doing that. I was okay with that because, uh, being self-employed as a, as a, basically a, a remodeling contractor, my territory was larger than Rockford. GM (20:42): And, uh, as much business, uh, work as goes downtown Rockford, I, I got project here and there, but it wasn't, was not a majority of my business. So I had no concern about losing business there. And I thought it was an important issue. And, uh, Gail, of course, was, was, uh, noted there as well. Um, yeah. So, um, had that submitted and, uh, then there's that quiet period, you know, is it still in the mail, <laugh>, what's going on? Like, you know, acknowledge receiving, it's almost like, uh, oh, like a movie with you all, you know, stamp. Okay, now it's official, but it's here, <laugh>, it's not re you know, it's, it's received, but it's, here's your receipt for it's receipt. But it's, it's not. In the process yet. So there's the discovery and, and making it known. And, uh, I can't remember at one point, but it got into the, the local newspaper. GM (21:57): And, uh, it's, I'm not a big spectator sports fan. And the tangent on that is, I remember hearing that intercollegiate sports, I guess college boys would get out and have this big brawl. It was a common thing. And so they started, you know, intramurals and they did intercollegiate. It's basically to turn people's focus towards something different, something constructive. But now it's a whole industry. But I think the side benefit is that, is that the average American thinks us versus them. And so you gotta, you gotta have a team, you gotta pick a side. And there's so few people that will look at both sides and take a, take a moment and not choose a side, but just kind of, kind of percolate. And we had a lot of people charging in, oh, Wolverine, they, you know, they've created so many new jobs. I'm like, well, what does that have to do with them dumping chemicals in the water? GM (22:59): This is what we're talking about. It's just like, and I'm not even saying they meant to do it, but it happened. It's like, you know, whether it's a child, you're in charge of, your neighbor, your neighbor has a dog that jumps the fence and bite your kid. I mean, are they gonna say, well, you should have fixed the fence? It's like, no, it's your dog. It is like, it is an issue of responsibility. So people wanted to end run because that was their team. Uh, I remember one situation where former council people would say, "oh, we never had any problem with anybody getting sick. We even, you know, we drew drinking water from the river." And I was on city council at the time thinking, oh, so you're responsible also, not that we knew that people were actually getting sick at that point, but, uh. Yeah. It just, those things that are said in the heat of the moment, and you think back and say, wow, you really said that out loud. Out loud. DD (24:07): Yeah. 6 �GM (24:08): Makes you pause. DD (24:12): How did it feel then, when the EPA turned the site back over to the DEQ? GM (24:19): Oh ho ho, yeah. I guess we didn't know what happened. Before I lived in Rockford. I lived in Ypsilanti Township down the street from a, a Superfund site. I think it was an old Ford facility or supplier. And as a local, I'm like, all of a sudden there's a chain link fence and a do not enter. And, you know, no trespassing didn't know what was going on. Uh, but that was a big concern that people would say, oh, they're gonna cordon it off and it'll look like, uh, Chernobyl, you know, a big, you know, toxic waste area. It's like, you know, 21st century, you know, I don't think all that's gonna happen. So we, we figured it'd be a guarded approach. Um, really one of the frustrating, um, parts of it being turned over to the Michigan DEQ was that, uh, previous to, uh, petitioning the EPA, uh, uh, local, um, officials in the DEQ, um, some were approached about this, and, uh, basically they had ran to Wolverine and, you know, talked all about it and just made a big, big fluster about it, and then did absolutely nothing. GM (25:53): Um, it was, to my understanding, the efforts of, uh, mostly one, one person in charge there locally, where a lot of the rank and file people did want to get involved. Uh, there were a lot of good people, some of them becoming, you know, approaching retirement age. They'd been there a good while, but they had that experience. They knew it was a bad situation, but they weren't the one politically appointed to the local office, and so they kind of had to basically follow orders. Uh, so yeah, it being turned back to the DEQ was a, was a disappointment. And, um, you know, it's, it's one of those things, sometimes you speak outta turn, but I thought, you know, at this point, point, I'll just, there's nothing I can do. But my expectation is that it would run the full course of doing nothing until, um, the EPA would have to step in again DD (26:56): Mm-hmm <affirmative>. GM (26:58): And, uh, I'm not kept up to date since I moved some four years ago. So, um, I'd still get notices about the meetings, but, uh, um, you know, things move on and my family has other, other needs. So, uh, I'm a little ignorant about what's happened more recently. But, uh, DD (27:22): After the, um, after the EPA turned the site back over to the DEQ, I know there was another kind of quiet lull for a while where a lot of things weren't hap, there was little work happening. I know that certain members in the CCRR were still trying to kind of go underground, if you will, and, um, continue to try to figure out what was going on and what was there. Um, did you remain involved after, like, were you still involved at that point? GM (27:58): 7 �Well, to answer it somewhat indirectly, what I remember of what the was happening on the site is that, um, one far end of the site got paved over into some parking spaces and they started holding farmer markets and the, like, there, um, they opened up the field for families to run across during, you know, um, movie nights. They'd, um, have some fireworks. And, um, although new fresh soil was put there, I didn't have the best, I, you know, feeling that it was necessarily safe for, uh, young people to be there. Um, there are, there are monitoring wells, but, uh, and when they talk about the fact that Rockford has a historic dam that was one point hydroelectric generation, um, and what, what, what should one do with it? Um, what's never said is that they would never wanna do anything with it, because the, the, the backwater area has so much, you know, retained sludge and who knows what, uh, presumed to be not good stuff, that it would just all get released. And again, so much of my focus has been on what was happening downtown, where the, uh, house Street site is one of the primary areas that we rolled into in playing, uh, playing field, uh, township because it's part and parcel of the same problem. Sledge was relocated and then crept into the groundwater. GM (29:54): But, uh, yeah, it just seems, uh, it just seems, uh, that there's a marked degree of irresponsibility. I mean that when we, when we were posting the petition, uh, Wolverine was, um, they were posting this, you know, um, historic gains in, in, uh, profit. Uh, there was some sort of crisis, I can't remember what it was in Texas, and they were sending down, um, you know, large contributions, you know, it was in excess of a million. I thought, well, why don't they do something local? I thought, well, because that's not glamorous, and that's not, you know, you come out and say, we, we just spent this much money cleaning up our own mess. They know that's not gonna help. But, oh, you know, children, you know, children need shoes in some foreign land. Oh, we, well, yeah, we'll cut a check for that. It's like, while that would be nice, how about taking care of what you, you created yourself? It's just, I just, just reminds me the old, the old names. The, the, the, the Rockefeller, the Carnegie, these, you know, captains of industry back in the day that, you know, they bought tooth and nail and there was a lot of blood and guts spilled, but when it comes full circle, they make donations or open libraries, which is a wonderful thing. But how they got the money, I think is sometimes more important than if, if they didn't clean up their mess on the way out. I'm just thinking, just cl if, if sooner or later somebody's gonna acquire wolverine or they're gonna shut down, or who knows what, just clean up your mess before you do. That's what I do, you know, before I go to bed, the house is still a mess, but there's certain things I make nice and tidy. I usually hand wash my dishes. That's what I like to do. I like putting 'em away so I don't come and have to put 'em away in the morning. That's what we do as responsible adults, and there's no reason why a corporate entity can't do the same. DD (32:21): Fair, very fair GM (32:24): Preaching to the choir, I suppose. <laugh>. DD (32:27): That's okay. It's good to put it down on record. GM (32:29): Yeah. Yeah. 8 �DD (32:31): Um, do you think there are any parts of the story that, as far as you're aware, that have been underreported? GM (32:42): I'm sure there are, but you know, with I am sometimes, well, I, I'm plagued with a good memory in some ways and a bad memory in others <laugh>. And one of the things I gets me through life is, uh, trying not to hold grudges. So I, I forget the bad things that happen sometimes, uh, but that, that lets people off the hook a little bit more than they should at times, I suppose. Um, and when it, when it comes to winners and losers, I mean, there were, there were relationships and friendships that were strained. Um, I had an interesting situation because my, uh, my next, so I lived right next to what had been a series of houses until at some point, uh, they were paved over for parking lot, which in Rockford that was allowed, you know, it was residentially zoned, but, uh, you couldn't build a convenience store there, but you could pave it and use it as a commercial parking lot, which seemed contradictory to me. GM (34:02): So anyway, it was nice place to have kids grow up because there wasn't much happening over there usually. Uh, so I only had a neighbor on one side, and, uh, the neighbor was a retiree from Wolverine Worldwide and his wife, and they were, uh, wonderful people. A part of the, I mean, um, the husband grew up there. I don't know if he's actually born there. I think he might've been like in the town, but he, he grew up there and he, he lived in that home after he had, um, well, they moved there in the early fifties eventually bought the home, and he died locally. So he spent his whole life there and, uh, had a lot of respect for him. Um, but, uh, his wife was on city council, and, you know, when you are in a, I always think of communities, when you're a certain community, um, your ears turned, uh, sympathetically toward those, uh, closest to you. GM (35:09): And so we were obviously on different sides of the issue, but it never really strained our relationship because we chose to be good neighbors and not, not really discuss that topic because, um, when, you know, somebody has the opposite point of view, and, uh, there is no real way of convincing them to change their opinion, um, I'm typically of the, of the opinion that, that, um, my best testimonial is just to continue. And if they ever have a question about how I feel I'll do so somebody is undecided about something, I'm more than willing to discuss it. But, uh, I'm not big into, you know, trying to change the world to agree with me. It's just, just not my way. But, uh, a lot of people that, uh, work quite differently in, in that community and other communities, but, uh, that, that strained a lot of relationships. GM (36:14): And, uh, the city manager of the time, he was a very, very energetic fellow. Um, but I think he was much on the wrong side of this issue, and I think he was used by Wolverine Worldwide. Um, which I don't know, it just, I, I, I saw the irony of it because as I said before, my opinion is that Wolverine Worldwide decided to stay in Rockford because they decided to stay in Rockford. And no matter what the city manager did or did not do, he's, he was like a gnat to them. A city of 6,300 people was not gonna do a whit of good or ill to them because they had been there since, I think the 1920s was the founding of Krause and Hurst tannery, and it's, I mean, it was a long, long time ago, and as much as he thought he was doing them favors, I think they would take any favor they gave him, but they were not gonna scratch his back in return. 9 �DD (37:30): Mm-hmm. GM (37:31): So, I, I just think he didn't, he didn't value the, the citizens of Rockford over the corporations of Rockford. DD (37:40): When did you, um, first hear about PFAS? GM (37:47): Oh, probably after we, I mean, I, I suppose I might have heard of it, you know, like in the news here and there, but is where, bang your head on, on hexavalent, chromium, hexavalent, chromium, hexavalent, chromium. All of a sudden somebody's like, well, what about PFAS? So I think, I think it might've even been after the petition was issued, I think it might've been amidst or in the formation of the, uh, community advisory group, Wolverine Community Advisory Group. I was a member, founding member for a while there. And, uh, and I think that that's where the, the focus changed over time. Uh, of course, the challenge there was that both the EPA and the DNR, they didn't have, oh, what, what do you call it? Legislative directives as to what contamination was. So, uh, after being a, uh, uh, remodeling contractor, I became a home inspector. GM (39:07): And so I got more into science, like radon and concentrations of this and that. And so, uh, oh, even some water quality analysis. So I got into a better understanding of what, what, what is, um, contamination, you know, what, what's, uh, the maximum MCL maximum contamination level, which is used with, I can't remember what is the hexavalent chromium, I think that's in, in there someplace. Uh, but, but other things, lead, arsenic, all those, and then the, the lower limits of detection, the LLD, that's where your, um, detection method can't, it might be there, but it's so small that there, it's undetectable. Um, but yeah, I find that there isn't, was no MCL and they, they knew PFAS bad, but they didn't know how much PFAS bad, which we kind of find that any amount is bad if it's, as they like to call it forever chemical. GM (40:14): And that it not only is, uh, pervasive and sticks around, but evidently is, can also accumulate as opposed to be something easily, uh, uh, removed. So, um, I'm just trying to think. The year we submitted the petition, do you recall, I thought it was 2012, DD (40:48): 2011? GM (40:48): 2011, 2012. I thought it was, yeah. 2012 came to mind, but maybe it was 2011 and I moved in 2020, so that was a long time to see not a whole lot done for that. So somewhere in the midst there, we got looking at the PFAS, and strangely enough, uh, where I live now isn't too far from Parchment, which has the, uh, paper mill PFAS issue in the Kalamazoo River. I drive by that every now and that the Kalamazoo 10 �River, I'm like, oh, there's another affected river. Unfortunately, I think it's documented to be, the documentation is more acute down here. I'm not sure that the Rogue River is better. I think it is. It's, it's, it's, it's a smaller river and it's a tributary, and it moves a little faster. So I think we have all that. But, um, yeah. Yeah. Just that an irony there. DD (41:54): So maybe that's a good segue into another question. Um, do you have any concerns about PFAS contamination moving forward? GM (42:06): Yeah. Well, largely like, if I think of, uh, people of Plainfield Township, there's a big bolus of, I can't remember the term. They would use, um, plume plume of, uh, contaminated groundwater that continues to migrate. Now they've tried to stop the wells that would draw from that, but that doesn't mean that's the only, um, vector of contamination. It comes up to the ground source. We have sludge that was there. There's a, there's a subdivision that was built over an area that anecdotally was reported to have surface, um, application over farm fields. Uh, the farmhouse is still there, the fields are gone. They put in a bunch of homes. And there was some reports of kids in the nineties having a strange form of cancer, of the sinuses and such. And it was just an uptick. And it passes and, you know, it's, it's not like a smoking gun. It happened there. How did, how did they get contaminated? Well, could have been private wells, but it was on city water, but it had developed homes with soil kids playing on the ground. GM (43:49): Who knows? Who knows? Um, in my little lake here, uh, I mean, I, I grew up downstream from, um, a paper mill. And every now and then they would have, oh, a little bit too much rain, and the holding pits would overflow, and the White Pigeon River would run a lime green. It's almost this like what they'd do in Chicago for <laugh>, or is this for St. Patrick's Day? Except for this is unintentional. This is a milky lime green. And it was disgusting. Hey, you know, it's poison. They would just go right down the river, which is tributary to the St. Joseph River, and they would get some sort of fine, but I believe it was a business decision that the fine was probably more affordable than cleaning 'em out. I don't know why otherwise they would do this. These weren't, it wasn't a, it was an old plant, but it wasn't an antiquated plant. GM (44:53): So I think that's kind of the way business used to be done quite a bit. So when we get back to the issue of the, the PFAS, um, what came to mind is, I would walk along the river as a little kid, and I'd see this foamy water, I think, oh, it just happens. It just happens. But, uh, Lynn was one who's just saying, what is this foam? I'm like, it just happens at rivers, Lynn. everybody said, it just happens. Well, it doesn't. More often than not, it's some sort of a, PFASis a what do they call it? Anti, it's a surficant. Anti. Surficant. Anyway, DD (45:33): Surfactant? GM (45:34): Surfactant, yeah. So it floats and it's a thing that keeps things from adhering to each other. So it's, it's, it's on the surface. Um, I have a neighbor at my lake here says, do you think anybody would mind if I check the water? 11 �GM (45:50): Because every now and then the wind blows and we get little foam <laugh> of water. I'm like, now don't tell me we got PFOS here. But we might, we don't know. I mean, I'm not near an airport. I understand. I think it was Grayling, the National Guard Airport, that they would use the foam that the firefighters use, and that, that there was a big contamination issue there. It just seems that, I don't know, there's, there's, there's too many things that just don't add up. I mean, we know we have, oh, for lack of a better term, plastic food. I mean, food that just isn't always food. It's just byproducts put in there, or products put in that we ingest. Um, so there's other issues. GM (46:41): But when I look at my generation and my children's generation, seems like we have a lot more problems with, uh, infertility than I remember hearing from prior generations. Um, a lot of people struggling to have children to have, uh, early, early life cancers. And, uh, it could it be the food? Could it be the water? Well, anything we can do to reduce our exposure to, um, carcinogens is, is, is not a bad way to go. And that's my biggest concern about this PFAS, that it's, it's, it's still, it's still out there. Seems like we're still adding to it. And being an old geology student, I know the earth heals itself, but I also <laugh>, like Carl Sagan would say, billions and billions of years <laugh> for the solar system. But like with, with the Earth, it can take a million years to heal something. It will heal, but it might take another species to <laugh> enjoy the benefits and we don't want that. DD (48:02): Well, you're just a jack of all trades, a geology student, construction, remodeling, and home inspection. GM (48:10): I think they, I think they now call that ADHD <laugh>. It wasn't a thing when I was a kid. I was just, I was just, well read <laugh>. DD (48:24): Is there anything before we wrap up that you'd like to add or, um, that we haven't touched on today? Or anything that you wanna go back to say more about? GM (48:38): Well, shame of it all is, uh, you know, I was a little delayed in getting back with you and, uh, by, by months, really as it's just been these weeks. But, uh, and being a little separated from the issue and distracted by other other concerns, it, it does get, it does get a little foggy over time as to And every now, and you have the, oh, yeah. That mo mo type of moment where you're like, okay, yeah, that was a, that was a, a big day or a big event. Um, but, uh, nothing really comes to mind. I, you know, as I age and mature, I, I think I oftentimes try to look at the theme, uh, versus the details. I'm very detail oriented, but I think to understand how details fit into a situation, you have to look at the overarching theme. GM (49:42): It's like, okay, what, why does the puppet move? Well, there's a puppeteer. Why does a puppeteer make that choice? Well, and it goes further and further and further back to, uh, a theme of where are we going with the whole thing. But, uh, yeah, I, I, I think we have a societal problem of not asking why we should, you know, continue to add untested, unproven products of all sorts of all sorts. That, uh, um, 12 �sometimes will have well established, um, methods of introducing, um, new products that we will just push the wayside because all of a sudden we think, oh, this is a crisis. We need to find a solution. Well, solution can be worse than the problem. GM (50:45): And, uh, I think it's important that we don't stop progress, but we start to find better methods to, uh, evaluate what things are progress. Uh, the continued proliferation of pharmaceutical drugs. We have plenty of pharmaceutical drugs that do just the same thing that the new ones will, but they're coming. The old ones are out of patents. So, you know, it's not always the case, but they try to find a, a new wheel, uh, you know, a better, you know, the wheel's been invented, get a better tire, that's fine, but gotta stop. Yeah. I don't know how we do it, but, uh, yeah. You know, fixing the past, I mean, that's an industry in itself. But, uh, trying to do, undo some of the, some of the harm we've done. I think that, you know, puts us in better stead for generations to come and say, well, they, they might have been a little warped, but they, they, they did their best to try to clean things up a bit. DD (51:59): Yeah. Well, Grant, thank you for taking the time to talk with me today. GM (52:05): Oh, gladly, gladly. 13 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource The Living with PFAS interviews were recorded during 2021 to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a group of chemicals used to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. These products include clothing, furniture, adhesives, food packaging, and heat-resistant non-stick cooking surfaces. They are considered "forever chemicals" in that they do not break down in the environment, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and they build up in fish, wildlife, and in the human body. Studies have shown that exposure to large amounts of PFAS may affect growth and development, reproduction, thyroid function, the immune system, and may injure the liver. More research is needed to assess the full health effects of exposure to PFAS. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0044 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Medich, Grant Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-12-11 Title A name given to the resource Grant Medich, 2025 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Grant Medich recounts how community concerns over a Rockford, Michigan tannery demolition evolved from chromium contamination to the discovery of widespread PFAS risks. As a nearby resident, he helped monitor the site and supported a citizen petition to the EPA, raising questions about corporate responsibility, regulatory inaction, and the long-term health impacts of “forever chemicals." Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ff2301ab38fe167a02578bf71fa7e4b6.jpg 6c4c365e691226b82e55d19b364c77b8 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f21331223023940f06de0886096650ab.pdf d48349224aeba5586ffea907fbba05f8 PDF Text Text Living with PFAS Interviewee: Renae Mata Interviewer: Danielle DeVasto Date: December 11, 2025 Dani DeVasto (DD) (00:00:03): I am Dani DeVasto, and today December 11th, 2025, I have the pleasure of chatting with Renae Mata and Lynn McIntosh. Hi Renae. Renae Mata (RM) (00:00:13): Hello. DD (00:00:14): Um, Renae, could you tell me about where you're from and you currently live? RM (00:00:20): I was born in Grand Rapids in 1973, so I'm 52, which will, the age thing kind of comes back around later in this interview. Um, till I was about 18, I lived, um, pretty close to downtown Grand Rapids, uh, Boston Square area. Then, um, moved with my parents to Standale. Spent a little time with my sister in Moline, Michigan, and a couple seasons in Idaho. And now I live in Plainfield Township. DD (00:00:52): And how long have you lived in Plainfield Township? RM (00:00:56): Um, well, let me say, let me go back a little bit. Okay. I got married in 2001. We bought a house in Alpine Township near the Plainfield Township border. Um, so from 2001 to 2019, we lived on Bertha Street in Comstock Park. And then in 2019 we moved to a larger house on the other side of Division, um, in Plainfield Township, still Comstock Park. DD (00:01:30): Okay. Can you tell me a story about your experience with PFAS or with PFAS in your community? RM (00:01:40): Oh, yes. All right. Here we go. Um, so I always used to love reading the Grand Rapids Press. I miss the paper and, you know, the permanency of it and, um, you know, kind of extraneously kept an eye, you know, tabs on what was going on locally. Um, but I was busy raising a family. I figured out that my boys were 10 and 13 in the year 2017, which was the big PFAS year. Um, so I had a lot of distractions going on. And, um, so let's just start at 2017, I guess 'cause that's when I got kind of pulled in. Um, I was working as a home healthcare aide and, um, met Lynn McIntosh through her mother. And, um, took care of Maya from 2013 to 2019. RM (00:02:46): 1 �And very part-time 'cause I was, um, raising my kids. But, um, so I knew Lynn for a few years before, um, she asked me a curious question and was that like summer probably? Summer of 2017. So I was there taking care of her mom and kind of randomly, I'm not quite sure how it came out, but it was just random, I guess to me. <laugh>, she said, so Renae, do you, do you live in Plainfield Township or something like that? And I was like, no, Comstock Park. Um, I prob, you know, I said Alpine Township, you know, she's like, oh, okay. And I don't recall if it was the same, that same conversation or a little later. Lynn McIntosh (LM) (00:03:32): I believe it was a little later that you brought up to me that, but you had Plainfield Township water RM (00:03:40): Yes. So Alpine Township does not have their own water source. Um, so we've drank Plainfield Township water since we moved in in 2001. LM (00:03:51): Knowing you, you probably looked up something because I had asked about RM (00:03:55): Well, I think that's where the Press came in. Garret Ellison's article, but that wasn't till fall. I'm not quite sure. LM (00:04:06): Well, his first article came out at the end of August. RM (00:04:09): Oh, August. Yeah, I guess it was around that time. Um, and I ended up calling you, which we didn't talk as friends at that point. We were just more, it was a business kind of relationship. I mean, we were friendly and friends as much as you can be in and out like that. So I called her and I don't remember exactly how the conversation went, but I, I said, you know, I, I am interested in what's going on with, you know, Plainfield Township, water, whatever. And, um, yeah. LM (00:04:38): 'cause you told me, by the way, I do live in Alpine Township, but I drink Plainfield Township water. RM (00:04:45): Yes. LM (00:04:45): And then I finally opened up to you RM (00:04:48): And you told me the whole spiel. 2 �LM (00:04:50): Yes, About my other life. RM (00:04:52): Yeah. DD (00:04:52): Because at that point, did you know what Lynn had been involved with? LM (00:04:56): Not at all. Nothing, not a word RM (00:04:57): She kept it to herself, LM (00:04:58): And I kept it from my mother, even at the till the very end RM (00:05:02): And I, I would've always been with your mom when I saw you too. LM (00:05:05): Yeah. Nope. Never shared it with anybody. I, I had <laugh>. Yeah. I, I didn't, I especially didn't want my mom to worry about anything. DD (00:05:14): So that must have been a revelation. LM (00:05:16): <laugh>, It was huge. It was like my double, it was like a double... RM (00:05:18): Yeah. It, it explained a lot of things though. 'cause I was, you know, like she seems all rather distracted all the time. You know, piano lessons must be very taxing. <laugh> RM (00:05:28): No. But, um but, uh, yeah. So, um, yeah, LM (00:05:33): I was living a double life here, <laugh> triple life RM (00:05:35): 3 �And that's, that's why I did bring along my little kind of resume because then all these different ties, like this web of like, I wasn't, you weren't just Maya's daughter and I wasn't just your mom's caretaker. No. I was like, by the way, I have, I have this other life that I used to lead. LM (00:05:52): Yes, that's right. Yeah. Your, your other life. RM (00:05:55): My other life. 'cause um, so I went, I graduated from Grand Valley, um, in 97 LM (00:06:04): Where Rick was a teacher. RM (00:06:06): Yes. Um, biology major and a Natural Resources Management minor. Um, and I worked as a student assistant at Water Resources Institute where Rick, I wasn't really under Rick, he was doing more of the chemically stuff and I was doing more field work, but I knew who he was and he didn't remember me. But, you know, there's students galore, you know. And, um, so I'm like, Hey, I have this past life in, um, this is why I'm extra interested in it. So, um, with water resources. And then, so that was around mid nineties. And then in '95 to '98, I worked for Michigan Department of Environmental Quality Environmental Response Division as a student assistant. And I was actually working, I wrote here 35 hours a week. I didn't realize that I worked that often that much because I was taking a full, pretty full course load too. Um, but that is where I met, I'm gonna just call him Dave O'Donnell 'cause I know he wouldn't like that. He likes David. <Laugh> And, um, Abby Hendershot. And, um, I, I didn't work in the same office as Janice 'cause ERD's building was actually in Wyoming because they didn't, they had run out of room downtown. So we were in a totally different building. Um, but I had heard of Janice. I had maybe had seen her or whatever, but, um, um, and then also a woman named Heather Hopkins who was in charge of the Whitehall Tannery. LM (00:07:39): That's right. Yeah. She worked with Rick over there. RM (00:07:43): She worked with Rick? LM (00:07:44): Yeah RM (00:07:45): Oh, interesting. LM (00:07:45): I tried to get her, I was hoping she would be the one who would be the contact with this tannery. RM (00:07:50): 4 �With a tannery background. Yeah. Okay. So, um, in that job I helped, you know, take samples from monitoring wells. Um, I did some GIS type geographic information system mapping 'cause at that time they were, they were trying to get the city of Grand Rapids to put some a, um, I dunno what the word is, like a restriction or a, that you can't use Grand Rapids water. Like, people might still have private wells. They didn't want people using those for anything, I guess. So I helped map all the different contamination hotspots in the City of Grand Rapids. RM (00:08:33): Um, and I got very proficient at spreadsheets, <laugh>. So, uh, I did a lot of spreadsheeting there, which I love by the way. Like, if life were a spreadsheet, you know, if I could, you know, without the grays of black and white, it goes, okay, it goes in that cell and that cell only, you know, I would be a happy camper. Anyways, so that's, that tells you a little bit about my analytical, kind of data oriented side, so. Okay. So, um, I graduated in 97 and wrapped up my time as a student assistant with the DEQ. Um, went off and had a couple adventures, which you're supposed to do in your twenties, right? I worked seasonally for the Forest Service, the first season as a forestry technician. So, um, I was hiking around measuring old growth pine trees, like, you know, literally like that big, you know, very large, um, that year. RM (00:09:34): And then the second season I got a bump up to, what I really wanted to do is a biological technician. So they paid me to, um, monitor a bald eagle's nest and, um, do birds like track down, um, some certain raptors. And, um, yeah, Idaho's a beautiful state. I loved it. But I, um, let's see, that was till '99. And then I met a guy <laugh>. So, and I never planned to not be away from Michigan. I mean, Michigan's beautiful. I'm, I'm not a big fan of winter, but all my family's here, so I, that was, you know, my adventure. And, um, so I came back and met a guy and, um, got a job with King and McGregor Environmental, which mainly, um, they do permitting working with the DEQ. So back, you know, kind of come around there working on the, the other, the other end. But working with DEQ to get the permits that our clients wanted for housing developments and such. RM (00:10:43): Um, so I worked there for almost seven years until 2007 where I got laid off 'cause that was the recession. And a lot of our majority of our clients were developers and stuff, stopped developing <laugh>, like, um, that's also right before I had my first, no second son, sorry. Um, so yeah, I met, you know, prince Charming, married him in right after, right after 9-11, 2001, had my first son went parttime at King and McGregor. Yeah. And then, um, three years later I had my second son. I have two sons that are now 18 and 22. RM (00:11:32): Um, so that's when I had the career change, which that kind of leads into how I met Lynn. I wanted, you know, my kids were young enough that I still, I knew I didn't want a nine to five job because, um, my husband was working second shift at the time, or No, he was, he was second shift then. He was a, then he went to first shift. Um, so we were, I wanted something opposite him. And, um, so we wouldn't have to worry about too much daycare other, you know, other than my mom a little bit here and there to cover. So, and the state of Michigan actually paid for my nurse aid training because I was, um, a displaced worker as, um, laid off 'cause of the recession. So, um, and actually when I went, when I, when I went to Grand Valley initially, I had got accepted into their nursing program. I thought I'd become a 5 �nurse, decided I didn't wanna wipe people's butts. But then I found out the nurse aids are the ones that do that. DD (00:12:30): <laugh> <laugh>. RM (00:12:31): But, um, <laugh>. LM (00:12:33): That's a brilliant, RM (00:12:35): Yeah. Anyways. Um, but there's a place, there's a, there's a need for that. So I, um, anyways, the flexibility is what I was looking for and, um, and helping, you know, 'cause I'm a caretaker type helper personality too. So I got a job working very part-time at a retirement community. And then when I had worked there quite a few years and the burnout's real and my back was, you know, feeling it, I wanted something a little more laid back, which was more one-on-one, you know? LM (00:13:10): More companionship care. RM (00:13:12): Yeah. And, um, so then I, in 2013, got hired on by the, the personal care company that Lynn had found. DD (00:13:23): Leaves Personal Care. RM (00:13:24): Yep. And, um, got matched up with, with Maya because she was on the north end of town, same as me. And, um, looking for evening hours, which was my availability. I was homeschooling my boys at the time, um, during the day. So that brings us back to, um, 2017. So 2013 I started working with Maya. Four years into that I got introduced to, um, Lynn's "Gal Noir" <laugh>, LM (00:13:59): My spy life. RM (00:14:00): Yes. Her "put the hush and hush puppy" she was, you know, and, um, she kind of pulled me in as kind of a little her Dr. Watson to her Sherlock, right? LM (00:14:10): Probably so <laugh> 6 �RM (00:14:11): Yes. And um, okay. So... DD (00:14:19): What did you, what were you like thinking or feeling as you were putting together these pieces of "I drink Plainfield Township water, I'm seeing these things in the newspaper, I'm talking with Lynn," like this is kind of what were your, like, do you remember your thoughts, your reactions? RM (00:14:37): Um, well, I've always been a bit of a tree hugger too. I mean, I got a natural resources management minor and worked in that field for quite a while. So, um, definitely concerned. But I have a friend who works at Prein and Newhof lab and the fact that Plainfield Township was always bragging about how they won these best tasting water awards. LM (00:15:07): Oh yes... RM (00:15:08): So going by the taste and even the labs really at that time, because they didn't test for PFAS LM (00:15:18): They didn't start testing that till 2013. RM (00:15:21): Yeah, because of...? LM (00:15:24): It was like an emergent emerging contaminant concern. RM (00:15:28): Yeah. Okay. So not directly, but you were bringing your samples to Prein and Newhof at some point? LM (00:15:33): I was. RM (00:15:34): around that same time. LM (00:15:35): Yeah. Right around that same time I was, yeah. It's interesting though. What, what be interesting to add on this was that my city manager talked to the director at Prein and Newhof and told them, you may not interpret her results because we, uh, it was the city's water. I was still, they could do the sampling for me, but they would not, they could not give me any interpretation. 7 �RM (00:16:02): Oh, so you would get the results Just no... LM (00:16:04): No interpretation. Which, which like, I, I did not want. Why would a city manager, what what right does... So I decided to, I went to Muskegon, then RM (00:16:13): Just changed labs LM (00:16:14): All the way I drive over there, like get into different county <laugh>. RM (00:16:19): yeah, it's too bad about that. Yeah. LM (00:16:22): Trace Analytical. DD (00:16:24): You were saying that you had a connection with Prein and Newhof and I was kind of asking generally like your reaction to finding out. RM (00:16:31): Yes. Back to that. Um, so I did buy an under sink water filter after that. But a lot of it is, um, you know, hindsight, I'm like, oh, you know, we've been drinking this since 2001. My first son was born in 2003. So, um, I guess the fears came out because, um, I drank it while they were in utero. They had it in their bottles. I didn't have the best milk production, so not a ton in my breast milk, which there might be a tie with. LM (00:17:09): I remember you mentioning that. Yeah. They're finding ties with that. RM (00:17:13): Yeah. And then, um, you know, they drank water in their sippy cups, you know, and not like, I didn't wanna give him juice and thought that was the healthy thing, you know? And so, and, um, but I obviously we're not able to get a whole house filter. And then supposedly the levels were lower than say, a private Well, but, um, LM (00:17:41): Isn't that also when Demand Action started to come into gear too? RM (00:17:44): 8 �Yes. Okay. So I'm pulling out one of my spreadsheets and, um, not that I got involved with Demand Action specifically, like, um, but, um, kept tabs on what was going on. So. DD (00:17:59): Just for the record, can you explain what demand action is? RM (00:18:04): Yes, it is my understanding that the main guy, Travis Brown LM (00:18:10): Yeah. And then, and there was another guy, Angel somebody. Angel RM (00:18:15): Yeah. LM (00:18:16): Last name is Angel. RM (00:18:17): Anyways, I, I don't know. That would be another good one to actually interview. He's very vocal on Facebook. I'll, you heard... DD (00:18:24): I think I've seen his name. RM (00:18:25): Yeah. Yeah. LM (00:18:28): Corey Angel. RM (00:18:30): Corey, yeah. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. I, yeah. 'cause he actually ran for, um, a township position once too. Yeah, LM (00:18:36): I think he did. Yeah. They, um, they, they, they formed probably because Corey and Travis, you know, both shared concerns and Travis knew a lot about Plainfield Township's miserable reputation. I mean, he knew about, he had some degree in water chemistry and knowledge and a lot RM (00:18:58): A lot of health issues too. LM (00:18:59): 9 �He had a lot of health issues and he was very upset about state disposal site where they used RM (00:19:05): On a, on the East BeltLine. That super fund. Yeah. LM (00:19:07): They used air strippers 'cause there were leaks going there. And, uh, he kept track of their miserable records of like, Plainfield Township was advised not to put in the North Kent Landfill there. And they, Prein and Newhof, advised them to do it. RM (00:19:25): And his research goes all the way back to like the sixties. LM (00:19:27): Yeah, a lot of good input that they, a lot of good input that was objective. They ignored. And actually they followed a lot of the advice from Prein and Newhof and Waste Management division. So he was very upset. He knew so much. And, and Corey Angel was a lot more measured, but also very smart. And they got this Demand Action. They had 2000 followers on their Facebook, and they are the ones who, RM (00:19:57): They really got the word out. LM (00:19:59): They're ones that got the word out. They were at the point where they were even calling on the, some of the commissioners to resign. They put the pressure on. And, and had they not, I don't think the word would've spread out nearly as much RM (00:20:12): <affirmative>. And that's how I knew about it. LM (00:20:14): That's how a lot of people knew about it. RM (00:20:15): Yeah. The pressure there. LM (00:20:17): Yeah. But DD (00:20:18): You weren't really involved with...? RM (00:20:19): No. 10 �LM (00:20:20): But it educated you. RM (00:20:21): It educated me. Yeah. Definitely. 'cause um, I had gathered Plainfield Township Municipal Water, um, news articles starting in, um, 2016, most of them are 2017, 2018. And, um, Grand Rapids Press, Fox 17, WZZM Wood TV, Grand Rapids Institute for Information Democracy. Um, Michigan Radio. And, um, so yeah, that got my ball rolling. As far as, um, like learning more, I'm very, I much consider myself selftaught in a lot of ways. It's like I'm a researcher type of personality. I just kind of jump in with two feet. That's, DD (00:21:11): And this, you're, you're referencing your spreadsheet right now? RM (00:21:14): Yes. DD (00:21:14): One of the spreadsheets, that was something that you decided to do on your own, just to start tracking? RM (00:21:18): I don't...I love spreadsheets. I don't remember you ever asking anything like that. I just started, and actually, um, when I worked for the, uh, for King and McGregor, um, I kind of, um, started a spreadsheet that was not related to PFAS, but, um, I just decided, decided to create an organizational spreadsheet because, you know, there was, um, too much stuff scattered around. So I, that's my, my nature to just like, to compile, you know, and, and then to be able to educate people more easily that way too, instead of going, you know, this, you know. So LM (00:21:52): Would you say that Demand Action was like, accelerated your education in certain ways to Plainfield? Or not necessarily? RM (00:22:03): Yeah. I don't think, like, I'm just counting how many, um, of these news articles have Demand Action ties so, um, let's see, October, 2017, trustees in Plainfield Township hear concerns about water contamination. I'm sure that was Demand Action. Um, so October, November, December, January 7th, 2018, residents, Plainfield residents say township board is practicing intimidation. Um, "you owe us more." Residents tell Plainfield Township. So, yeah, I'll, like, if they hadn't put the heat on, The pressure, they, it would still, they, you know, until they get the heat, they're not, you know, they're not gonna, LM (00:22:50): They wouldn't have that filtration system if the citizens hadn't put the pressure on. RM (00:22:53): 11 �Yeah. Right. LM (00:22:56): But then just, just to bring up, it was interesting that as part of CCRR, you also talked to Plainfield Township in 2017. We talked about that earlier with AJ. RM (00:23:09): Oh, yes. That, um, the small little boardroom meeting. Yes. I'm picturing a bigger one. Yes. Yeah. DD (00:23:17): So you, I'm just thinking about this in time. So you're, you've had your conversation with Lynn. You've learned about PFAS work and concerns about Plainfield Township water. You're starting to educate yourself and track these newstories. Yeah. Then what? RM (00:23:36): Let me look at my notes here. LM (00:23:39): How afraid were you at that point? RM (00:23:42): Um, I don't think, I, I don't think fear would be a good word. Um, I do remember you, there was something about a FOIA in City of Rockford once you, you had asked me to get involved with like, and I was like, you know, I'm okay to do this, but Lynn, the cat's pretty much out of the bag. You know what I mean? I don't think we need to be secret. You know, you were so used to being secretive about everything. And just like, I think another one of the interviews that you did, somebody said the genie was outta the bottle, you know, and cat outta the bag. And, um, I ended up, well, can maybe somebody else do that? You know, <laugh>? So, um, yeah. At that point, once the cat's outta the bag, then the, the fear thing isn't an issue. It's more like, all right, what do we do next? Let's fight it. I guess LM (00:24:32): I meant for your children, RM (00:24:33): Fear for my children. Um, I think when we went to the pediatrician, I, I educated, I, I'm very much a realist, so I don't, you know, there's a fearmongering. I don't get into too much, but I am also a realist. And I know stuff happens. I work in cancer data. I wear my fight to end cancer t-shirt to, um, fight to end blank fill in. You know what I mean? But yeah, when we went to the pediatrician, I was like, by the way, they've been drinking PFAS, um, all their life, including when they were a few cells old, you know? And, um, my husband happens to have cholesterol issues, which probably exacerbated, um, potentially by the PFAS we drank. But, um, also some genetic factors there, as you know. But as far as my boys inheriting some of that familial stuff, but, um, so yeah, testicular cancer is a cancer generally of younger men and teenager teenage boys. So, um, I was definitely making my, their pediatrician aware that. You know, want you to be extra vigilant and, um, yeah. Uh, I guess that's all I can think at the moment for the boys. Yeah. Okay. Let me look at my notes here. Highlight some of the things I've already talked 12 �about. So I, um, um, and if we have time, I'll get into the Parkinson's thing. But I mainly wanted to focus on Plainfield Township Water. RM (00:26:37): And City of Rockford Water. Have you interviewed anybody that drinks City of Rockford Water before? What is it, 2000, 2001, where they switched from the Rogue River? Do you interview? DD (00:26:49): No, I have not. RM (00:26:50): Oh. I'm also advocating for them too. It's just like Lynn advocated for Plainfield Township. Um, I got the okay from my friend Megan Force and her mom, Dawn Force. They grew up in the city of Rockford. She's a little younger than me, probably, um, maybe four years younger, I would say. And she happens to be my hairdresser. That's how I know her. Me and me and the boys. Um, yeah, let's just jump into the city of Rockford thing. Since I talked about Plainfield. We can come back around to Plainfield, but, um, sounds good. Um, yeah. And Megan okayed my use of her name. 'cause you never know how private people wanna be or, um, you know, litigation or whatever out there. RM (00:27:36): So, um, Megan in 2016, in her, that was probably her early forties or late thirties, um, she was diagnosed with a rather nasty thyroid cancer, which I believe Sandy Wynn Stelt also had thyroid cancer. And now, just in the last, um, six months, Megan's mother, Dawn has also been diagnosed with thyroid cancer, which I see, you know, when PFAS has talked about, where they talk about thyroid disease, but I don't know that I've seen thyroid cancer. Yeah? Okay. It is a definite, yeah. Um, so in 2000, not 2001, 2000, the city of Grand Rapids, city of, sorry, Rockford switched from drawing their drinking water out of the Rogue River, which was just downstream of the tannery, 300 yards down, the, in the inlet to suck the water to their treatment plant. LM (00:28:48): Never treated. RM (00:28:50): well, they treated it to some degree. They didn't just. LM (00:28:53): Yes. They never treated for PFAS. RM (00:28:55): Right. Because it wasn't really, it wasn't a thing, even though Scotchgard was invented. I looked this up in 1956, and they had been using it since probably this. LM (00:29:05): 58. 13 �RM (00:29:06): 58. Okay. LM (00:29:07): Yep. That's when they started, RM (00:29:09): that's when the, the hush puppies basically, or whatever they were making at that time, LM (00:29:13): Yep, the year I was born. RM (00:29:14): Oh, that was your birth year, <laugh> '58, huh? So, um, Megan being born in the late seventies, it must be, she drank it, it for her growing up years. And she lived downtown uh, near downtown Rockford. Um, and then she, she told me, you know, as she's my hairdresser, so you talk, you know, you talk about stuff like that. And she knew my background. Um, she said, the surgeon said it was one of the nastiest looking growths, obviously not just some slow growing, you know, like something caused that nastiness to yeah. Just, you know, and especially I think, I don't know exactly how old she was, but, um, like I said, late thirties, early forties, I have to do the math. But, um, uh, definitely a tie there, I'm sure. And, um, so as, as far as I know, Lynn has advocated for Plainfield Township, and she's attempted to advocate for City of Rockford people. But because it was so long ago, is that the bigger issue, or ? LM (00:30:41): Well, Dani and I, I just wrote a note, I wanna get this to her, but the city of Rockford did not express any curiosity or, or concern about, they never pushed to learn more. They just, and there's another whole little story there with both city managers. RM (00:30:59): Ignorance is a bliss sort of thing? LM (00:31:02): Yeah. They, they did not come alongside and express concern. Like, well, that was in the past. But what's been heartbreaking for me is knowing people in my neighborhoods who have suffered some of these. And I see it more RM (00:31:17): Cancers mainly. Are you...? LM (00:31:18): Yeah. And I, I tried, I don't know if you went with me, we went to a few events together, but you remember you went to that one with that person. I'm talking about the, the one who had colon cancer. We met at the library. We were wearing the same blue shirts, and we went there and she was trying to garner interest in, in educating people about it. And she kind of was involved for about a year. And she 14 �wrote a letter to the editor, challenging Rockford's attitude about, ignorance, laissez fair, and all that. And I, I have to get that contact information, but I remember attending that with you. And I remember there was a, a representative there too, Deb Avens who was running to be a Kent County commissioner, because she had to have her thyroid removed. 'cause she lived in Plainfield Township. RM (00:32:17): So, and remind me, was it Courtney Carrigan or was it another different Courtney that also...Because I haven't listened to her, um, interview yet, but I'll have to LM (00:32:26): No, I'd like to get you to another person. RM (00:32:28): She, she grew up in rockford? LM (00:32:31): No, it was, it was the one you and I that I, whose name was like Briana Mezuk. She's the one who grew up in Rockford and believes that she got cancer in her thirties because of drinking the water. Yeah. So she was, she minced no words at the first public meeting. In fact, there's an article about that first public, second public meeting at the high school. I think she was quoted in that. And then her letter to the editor, which weigh in on someone who has a background in, you know, um, at, um, what's the word for studying...Epidemiology? Yes. Someone who grew up in Rockford attended, drove over from across the state to attend this public meeting, made public comment, followed up with a letter to, to the editor, then followed up with trying to organize that one event. Do you remember the, the audio-visual wasn't working and it was a while back. RM (00:33:28): At the library? LM (00:33:29): Yeah, at the, at the, uh, middle school we went. RM (00:33:32): Middle school. LM (00:33:33): And you went with me. RM (00:33:35): Wasn't it on your birthday or something? On your birthday? LM (00:33:38): 15 �No, on my birthday was when Michigan, we made public comment about the MCLs. This was earlier than that. It was probably 2018. And she was trying to generate interest locally about this issue, about Rockford's drinking water, trying to get some traction. RM (00:33:53): Have you, have you heard any...that she kind of... LM (00:33:56): I need to get back to her. I, yeah. And it's on my list right now. Yeah. For Dani, because I think it's important to acknowledge that Rockford really the laissez fair attitude. It's like, let's just move on. Yeah. DD (00:34:16): So you are, you know, it's 2017 you found out about the water. You've started doing some of this research on your own at home and educating yourself. Um, what else were you up to? What happened with and after that? RM (00:34:32): Well, I'm, I'm glad Lynn was here to remind me about various, um, meetings I went to with her and, um, and one at Plainfield Township without her. Um, that was a pretty important meeting 'cause AJ, the lawyer and Rick Rediske, um, I lent them the credibility of being the Plainfield Township resident of like, alright, it's not just outside people creating trouble. Um, and I remember I had printed up an article, I had found, um, because the township was still saying, oh, we're still looking for a new well field still. We're looking for a new well field. And I'm like, it seemed pretty obvious to me that they weren't gonna find it. You know what I mean? So I was more on kind of on the filtration, um, aspect in this paper. I brought, I, I was gonna try to find it, but didn't have time. RM (00:35:27): Um, it just, it talked about how many thousands and thousands of not just the PFAS family, but of chemicals that, you know, you don't necessarily test for. You don't even know the, how, you know the specifics about them. 'cause, um, and the article was something about 10,000, um, chemicals that aren't even tested for. You know what I mean? So it's like I was, I, I handed that to them and I said, you know, even if you get this PFAS thing under control, what, what's the next thing that you're gonna find that you haven't, these filters aren't pulling out or whatever. So to be more vigilant on, um, being up on what the newest nasty out there that's either a new chemical or one that they're just realizing is, you know, like asbestos, they thought it was this great insulator and working in cancer data, they found out, you know, it gives you mesothelioma, lung cancer. RM (00:36:29): Um, so that, I thought that was a pretty important, um, meeting. And they did end up getting the grant and spent some of our tax money, you know, 'cause I've seen my water bill going up over these past few years too, because the grant doesn't cover everything. And, um, yeah, it's the citizens that end up picking up the, uh, the bill for this sort of stuff. So, DD (00:37:01): and the grant is for looking for a new well or...? 16 �RM (00:37:04): The grant was for the fancy filters that they put on. Yeah. And then, then they had a lot of visitors from other, um, cities, states, and even out of country to look at this filtration system because, um, realizing that, you know, they say how ubiquitous is the word that PFAS, et cetera are, there's really not clean water left is my, you know, like if it ubiquitous is a pretty big word. RM (00:37:36): You know, and if the polar bears in the Arctic circle or whatever have PFAS, then um, we just have to filter it. And like at a different township meeting, I did a that's right. I did get up there and um, I made a public comment about my children having drank this water since in utero in the water, in their bottles and et cetera. Like I said earlier, as you know, my impact statement basically. And, um, and uh, like switching to Grand Rapids water isn't a solution either. 'cause then the township supervisor said, well, they Grand Rapids. It kind of opened my eyes. I hadn't really heard much about microplastics. So that's the newest thing I educated myself on. 'cause he's like, well, Grand Rapids has their own issues like microplastics. And I'm like, microplastics? You know, and 'cause that's really come about in the last how many years? RM (00:38:29): Few few years. Pretty recent. Pretty recent. And how they, they think the average person has a credit card's worth of plastic in their brain. Have you heard that stat? DD (00:38:39): That's awful. RM (00:38:40): Yeah. So I don't like to hyperfocus on just one bad guy. You know, I, the big, I'm kind of a big picture person. Um, you know, like Lynn's mentioned before, you know, they originally were looking at chromium or, you know, these other tannery associated chemicals, which can be just as bad, you know, maybe not last in the body as long, but they can, you know, it's, um, it's not just PFAS. It's basically, you know, we're talking about PFAS here because it's, um, different than a lot of these, you know, with a, such a long term effect. And, um, yeah. When it's called a forever chemical that is fear producing, you know, so. DD (00:39:28): Did you keep drinking Plainfield Township water once you knew that there was a problem? RM (00:39:36): Well, we got one under sink filter for the kitchen, um, you know, separate little spigot, and we used that for our drinking water for the most part. But, you know, we maybe still fill the spaghetti pot from the regular filter. I mean, this, um, you know, before they put the fancy filter on, it's not like we were buying drink, um, bottled water. So it's like, what's your choice? You know? And then you find out that bottled water has PFAS too, and probably microplastics. And so, um, that's, that's not an answer either. So, um, yeah. So we had a three stage Aquasana water filter. I forgot what year we installed that. Pretty, pretty quickly after all this. And then, um, but you know, of course, you know, we were still showering and their skin and, um, laundry and you know, we, like I said, we just had the one undersink filter, so 17 �DD (00:40:36): You've, you've mentioned that you had spoken about concerns for your children. Did you ever have concerns for yourself? RM (00:40:45): Well, that's a good segue, <laugh>. Thank you. Um, you know, now I'm 52 and I, you know, I feel like I've, I've lived a good share of my life. Of course I'm not old, but, um, whatever your definition of old is, <laugh>. But, uh, it keeps getting pushed back farther and farther. But, um, yeah, always have been pretty healthy. Not never on meds or have any health issues that really caused me any major. You know, I just went for my yearly physical and had, um, uh, no concerns really. I mean, I figured it was probably too little too late anyways, because by the time I'd been drinking it since 2001 and all my other environmental exposures that, um, you know, just living in a developed country, you know. Um, but okay. Here's our segue to, um, if you had done this interview with me before March 25th, 2025, I would've pretty much been done with what I wanted to say for the most part. RM (00:41:58): But that is the date that I was diagnosed with young onset Parkinson's Disease. And, um, I am a realist, like I mentioned before, and I, I just tend to jump in with two feet. And, and actually I had, I had actually jumped into the Parkinson's thing a few years ago because I have a very strong family history of it. So I was already fascinated with kind of like maybe the genetic, um, factors there. My dad had it, his sister, um, their mother, my grandmother had essential tremors. So when I got a tremor a year or two ago, I was really hopeful it was an essential tremor, you know? 'cause sometimes people just get a little shaky, you know? Not necessarily at age 50 or 49, however old I was. But, um, you know, I always kind of half joked between the three of us siblings, you know, probably one of us is gonna get Parkinson's, you know, um, and I won the lottery there. Hopefully my other two older siblings don't get it. Um, so I have a, a strong family history. So, um, um, so how that ties in with PFAS. RM (00:43:14): So in, um, in 2019, I, I, I, um, 2018, I, I got a, I kind of changed careers from the, um, nurse aid thing 'cause burned out in my body, you know, I knew I couldn't do it for the rest of my life. And so I got a, went to Ferris and got a certificate in cancer Information management. Always been fascinating 'cause who hasn't been affected by cancer. Um, my husband's, uh, 28-year-old brother died of a rare sarcoma that may or may not have been from, um, pesticide exposure 'cause they grew up, um, in migrant housing and up north. With pesticides and such. Um, so I, you know, I've always been kind of concerned for my husband with, he was out weeding fields from age 10 and up, you know, um, that exposure. And, um, so how that ties in, you know, so I was a researcher for cancer and, you know, I'm looking at people's medical records all day and, um, educating myself, and not just cancer. RM (00:44:20): And, um, and just recently since I was invited to do this interview, kind of arranged with Lynn's help. Thank you, Lynn. And, um, I've just kind of delved into this. I work with cancer registry. So in 1971, Nixon passed, you know, kind of a law like the war on cancer, which there's been different, there's a war on, you know, war on Parkinson's or war, you know, sort of thing too. Um, that's been more recent. But, um, so hospitals and such are required to, to report their cancer cases to state and national registries. So that's what I deal with. I deal with pulling that information out of people's medical records and putting it, you know, it's not even, it's sort of de-identified, I guess, you know, the, when it, when it gets to 18 �public, um, access of that sort of statistics. But, um, so that got me thinking about, um, cancer isn't the only thing out there that's caused by environmental contaminants. RM (00:45:40): That's, it's been established with Parkinson's that, um, that they, they actually know, they figured out that it's actually a higher number than they thought was genetically related. So I did do some genetic testing, which surprisingly came back negative for the known monogenic causes of Parkinson's. So there's like top seven mutations that, that is a definite connection with getting Parkinson's, especially like young onset. Um, and, um, I did, I tested negative for those, and then they did an additional panel of like 21 additional genes that are associated with Parkinson's, Parkinsonism, whatever you wanna call it. And that was also negative, but educating myself, I've always been fascinated with genetics, you know, and the epigenetic thing is that those top seven singular genes that I could have inherited, which, you know, I could, there, I could have one bad guy that they just haven't discovered yet. RM (00:46:46): Because even with cancer, they find different mutations, not just the BRCA, the BRCA is the main, is the well-known one, but. With cancer. Um, so yeah, I could potentially have, you know, since I have such a big family history, potentially have an unknown bad guy or, um, there's, it could be polygenic just in, like my husband has high cholesterol that runs in his family. He, you know, when his twenties, you know, kinda a younger onset of high cholesterol and all the stuff that comes along with heart disease. And, um, so I may may very well have two genes working, what's the word? Um, together, together in tandem. Yeah. Together, um, to cause my trigger to get Parkinson's to be more sensitive to environmental contaminants. Um, genetically predisposed. Yes. So, I mean, and I had looked into it. My dad was officially diagnosed, I think in his early seventies, but I'm sure he had it at least 10 years before that he didn't have, have really have a tremor. RM (00:48:03): So if I hadn't gotten my tremor, I would, I, right now I could be sitting here not knowing I had Parkinson's because I didn't give the tremor. But all this other stuff that I've been chalking up to perimenopause and long COVID and like, 'cause I lost my smell with COVID. So I'm like, well I've, maybe it's just long COVID all this more cognitive and mood issues that I was dealing with. 'cause it's not just a tremor. Um, so, you know, to turn my lemons into lemonade, I've gotten involved just in the, it's not even been a year yet, you know, nine months or whatever that since my diagnosis with, um, kind of educating and not really the advocating yet, but the educating of others. First of all, what Parkinson's is, being not just a tremor, like my, I sent you that, the iceberg, because there's so many, um, symptoms that of course, you know, I'll, if you have 'em, you don't necessarily have Parkinson's. RM (00:49:09): But, and there can be overlap, but people with Parkinson's can have a lot more than meets the eye. I don't know if you have any family members with Parkinson's or know...? DD (00:49:21): I don't have any family members with Parkinson's. RM (00:49:23): or know anybody closely? 19 �New Speaker (00:49:25): Yeah, I do know a few people. New Speaker (00:49:26): Yeah. So, um, I've done a little writing, which I don't consider myself a writer. I love more technical stuff, but I've, I apparently have a little bit of a flare for it. You know, I sent you the one article, but more nuts and bolts and, um, so the lemonade, lemons into lemonade, um, this interview and kind of like, well, is there a Parkinson's registry? You know, like cancer registry? And, um, I sent you that. I found out just right before I sent that to you, I'm like, oh, California, Utah and Nebraska have Parkinson's registries. RM (00:50:02): And California specifically had talked about Parkinson's hotpots, and I'm like, with cancer, cancer clusters. I'm like, Hmm. And, and somebody offhandedly mentioned to me at some Parkinson's gathering, they're like, oh, so maybe that's why there's so many people in West Michigan with Parkinson's. And I'm like, wait, what really? What, what did you just say? You know what I mean? So that's kind of whet my Sherlock Holmes, I guess of like <laugh> my, my data mind, um, to go Well, um, I listened to Kevin Elliot's, um, interview that you did, and he said, he talked about substantial scientific uncertainty. You know, they base, you know, the, of course the essence of science, there's always gonna be some sort of uncertainty, but substantial, I guess was the key word. So if you're gonna use the excuse of no data, let's try to fix that. You know what I mean? RM (00:51:06): Like, oh, it might be tied to Parkinson's, you know, PFAS tied with Parkinson's too, but the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. So how can we get the evidence, the data, um, because when somebody says there's no reported problems, that's not good enough for me. You know what I mean? Like, um, I, uh, yeah, we talked about how these government people like kind of fein or the lawyers or whatever, whoever you're talking about, fein ignorance or, or they, well, we don't know. You know, that's, I'm not the type to just be, oh, we don't know, then just stick my head in the sand. You know, it's like, yeah, it sucks to have Parkinson's and I, I maybe overanalyze it, but at the same time, just like Lynn, maybe people thought she was overanalyzing what was going on with Wolverine and so forth. RM (00:52:13): Um, it just seems like a no-brainer that, um, PFAS in Parkinson's needs to be delved into more deeply. DD (00:52:28): The role of PFAS? RM (00:52:29): The role of PFAS, especially since it's such a forever chemical and it's shown to be a neurotoxin. Um, and one of the things I've researched for one, one of the articles I wrote was about brain first versus body first origins. And, um, that was eyeopening to me because, you know, you assume it starts in the brain, you know, maybe a lot of Parkinson's people lose their sense of smell from Parkinson's, like the olfactory bulb. But there's lots of research lately about how it could start in your gut and then travel up your vagus nerve to your brainstem. Yeah. So poor gut health, leaky gut, all that. And what if you're putting in 20 �your gut could affect getting, you know, the incidence prevalent or whatever incidence of increasing your risk. RM (00:53:19): Especially, you know, if you have that genetic predisposition. I'll have to send you that article. DD (00:53:24): That's wild. RM (00:53:26): I know. And then there was another article I haven't even read, it was quite long. I haven't read about how your gut microbiome is. So they, they're just learning so much about how instrumental those are in your general health. You know, not you just, you think of them as digestion, but, um, some of them might help take PFAS out of your body or some, you know, if you have poor gut health, you know, or low by low amount of the good bacteria. And, um, you're more susceptible for, um, nasties to maybe travel up your vagus nerve to your brainstem, for example. So, um, DD (00:54:12): So you've been kind of throwing yourself into this new research project, it sounds like. RM (00:54:16): I tend, I tend to do that, which isn't always necessarily good for my physical and mental health, but, DD (00:54:25): And is this this kind of been since your diagnosis or were you starting to do this work before? RM (00:54:32): Not in relation to PFAS, but actually, um, I like to promote Michael J. Fox has a data study called PPMI. Um, I could look up what exactly that stands for, but basically anyone, any adult can join it. And I actually joined it in 2022. Um, I think that's around the time that I noticed a twitch behind my right knee. And I, I didn't necessarily, you know, a lot of it's hindsight, you know, like Huh. Subconsciously or whatever. But I had looked into, um, you know, 'cause Michael J. Fox has helped just bring the, the Parkinson's to the forefront, just like with Lynn and PFAS here in this area. And, um, so since 2022, I've been, um, taking data surveys every three months so they can, um, track progression. Like, 'cause so I, I started it when I wasn't diagnosed. Then there's like, you know, you keep asking you every time, "Have you been diagnosed?" RM (00:55:29): No, no. And then finally I said, yes, you know, 'cause I got diagnosed and my got my sister to do it. She hasn't been diagnosed. And hopefully it won't be, but to compare, you gotta have your control of who doesn't get Parkinson's. So if, if you'd like to join PPMI, I can send you info. 'cause um, they need that, you know, kind of, you know, the, the non-Parkies that, um, uh, and actually that that ties in like jumping in with both feet. I joined a clinical trial, which, um, they actually compare their, the date of their, um, they compare what they're finding out from my blood tests or brain scans and comparing it to 21 �some of the data that's been gathered through PPMI to say this, I'm taking a neuro antineuroinflammatory pill that's hopefully will slow my Parkinson's, but that's kind of subjective, you know. RM (00:56:38): So they do, they do draw blood to see if my inflammasomes, you know, these inflammatory markers, how they respond or don't respond. You know, like it could be on the placebo too. It's one of those. So, um, but the PPMI is helpful to have something to compare, you know what I mean? Such a big data set to, um, to know how people tend to progress. But my neurologist said, if you've seen one Parkinson's patient, you've seen one Parkinson's patient. Because it's so variable. And that's the tricky part of Parkinson's is like young onset generally progress slower, but not always. So, um, and DD (00:57:19): Then I'm sure if you're trying to link in PFAS, it just makes it all the trickier. RM (00:57:24): Yeah. And like, and I kind of put PFAS to the back burner, you know. But now this is kind of brought it to the front burner, which it, you know, like it is what it is. And I'm, like I said, I'm a realist and, um, yeah, I went, I went through the stages of grief and probably still am going through a, a, you know, potential loss of abilities and, and a lot of hindsight stuff like, oh, that's why I, you know, it wasn't just necessarily like seasonal effective disorder, why I'm, my anxiety and depression have increased and, you know what I mean? 'cause of my, my dopamine, my serotonin, my norepinephrine, um, I showed, I showed Lynn this graph, which she's like, oh, you have to need to unsee that. And I'm like, yeah, I wish I could. It says that by the time you have your motor symptom, you've already probably lost up to 70% of your dopamine producing neurons. DD (00:58:18): Wow. RM (00:58:18): Yeah. So it's not just like, oh, you get a tremor. Oh, now you have Parkinson's, you've had Parkinson's, and now it's just finally enough death of which I was thinking that Parkinson's is almost like a reverse cancer in a way, because instead of cells proliferating these alpha nucleon misfolded proteins are going in your body and killing off stuff and causing a tremor causing, um, my right leg. I don't, I don't take as big of a step with my right leg. And, um, when I, when I walk without thinking about it, my right arm doesn't swing. And, you know, my loss of smell might be from the Parkinson's also, even though my husband can't smell either from the COVID from in 2021. But, um, anyways, to kind of wrap up, um, what my newest, I guess not really tangent, um, about how, I dunno, what, what was your, your wrap up question of, um, I think you kind of asked it already, but DD (00:59:27): What concerns do you have about PFAS contamination moving forward? RM (00:59:30): Moving forward? Um, yeah, Lynn's comment about, I don't know, I think she maybe maybe said it off the record, but, um, about like Tobin's family thinking that, assuming, you know, that terrible word of 22 �assuming that their treated Plainfield Township water after they got put on that expensive, you know, extension of Plainfield townships, um, waterlines. Assuming that first of all, that government's gonna take care of you to the extreme. You know, they, they, you know, that's not a, not a thing. And, um, just to be more aware and, and, uh, and you can't, you can drive yourself crazy with like, oh, should I eat this? Not eat that, drink that, not drink that. And that's no way to live either. So it's a balance. It's definitely a balance. Like just with my Parkinson's, it's like I really shouldn't be eating sugar and carbs. 'cause you know, especially gluten, it's a, it's an inflammatory substance. RM (01:00:41): Do I still eat some, I eat a lot less of it, but I put sugar in my tea. And, um, so that's still a struggle for me. I don't, you know, especially with being only 52 and I have potentially 30 some years, my dad passed away when he was almost 86 with Parkinson's, so it's won't necessarily shorten my life, but do I even wanna live till I'm 90 with being stuck in a nursing home? And like, he, it was a very traumatic time with my dad being stuck in a nursing home during COVID. Didn't get to see him butt through a window for a year. So I could, I, I won't go down that rabbit hole, but, um, DD (01:01:23): Well maybe thinking about rabbit holes, is there anything else that you want to touch on or go back to before we wrap up? Or things that we didn't get to bring up? RM (01:01:31): Right. Um, let me just look at my notes RM (01:01:40): Because one of the things with Parkinson's is it can affect, not necessarily your long-term memory, like Alzheimer's, but, um, I remember Googling adult onset ADD before I was diagnosed on like, what is going on? Like, I felt like I was getting ADD and I'm like, isn't that usually, you know, you get diagnosed when you're hyper kid or whatever, but like, especially with women, a lot of times, you know, I'm probably, I might have some ADD too, but it's more of a mental ADD, but then add in Parkinson's and I'm gotta refer to my notes and cues and such. RM (01:02:17): You know, I've pretty much touched on all my notes. I guess getting back to Parkinson's registry and like how finding Parkinson's hotspots, like I think it was, um, Bob Delaney that was talking about his interview about autism along highways. I'm like, that, that was eyeopening to me. So I'm very interested in maybe advocating, and I'll probably jump in with two feet and like advocating for a Michigan Parkinson's registry like California has. And, um, of course that takes money, you know, money, you know, as much as we hate, you know, oh, evil corporations and blah, blah, blah. You know, money does make the world go round in some respect. Obviously some, um, CEOs take it to the extreme to, like, money's more important than people's health. Um, but, uh, yeah. So I, I'll I'll keep you updated on that. <laugh>. DD (01:03:19): please do. RM (01:03:21): 23 �so. Um, oh, 'cause oh, and ADD 'cause you know the autism and like ADHD, um, ADD has also been linked to dopamine issues and surprisingly enough, so I dunno if you've heard that. Hmm. So it is a dopamine thing potentially, or part of it with, um, ADD. So, um, you know, the explosion of autism and ADD, you know what I mean? Like ADHD, uh, then we have, you know, putting kids on all these meds 'cause I've, I've never been a pop a pill person and I'm a little conflicted about this clinical trial, but I'm like, Hey, if it'll slow my Parkinson's, why not throw, throw the kitchen sink at it, sort of thing. So, yeah. RM (01:04:08): Yes. So I think that's, I guess my, my last little note I said, um, had a little flow chart of, um, you know, just like my little Plainfield township, Lynn's city of Rockford and private wells, and then, oh, that's, we don't have time to get into this, but, um, the health study that they did. That's Lynn really advocated and I, I, I volunteered for it too. I really wanted to be a part of that. This, it was a few years ago now, right? And, um, there's, I think there's still a place for the 40,000 people that have been drinking Plainfield Township water, um, to have participation in some sort of study. Um, obviously you have to, you have to cap it somehow, you know, and, but, um, but again, they're data, right? Like, just like money makes the world go around in a lot of ways. RM (01:05:11): You know, if, if you don't have the data, then you, they throw up their hands and Oh, well we don't know. And I'm like, you know, that's... And I saw a little ad for, you know, these ugly Christmas sweaters and, um, this one said I was, I told my boys, I'm like, I would actually wear this sweater. It said, "this calls for a spreadsheet." And that's like, you know, if I could spreadsheet, you know, Parkinson's prevalence incidents and, you know, with, with geographic information systems, GIS mapping, hotspots, you know, just like with cancer clusters and apparently autism, you know, and, and now it was fascinating too about the upper class people getting, um, having more exposure to PFAS with the Scotchgarded carpets and such. But, um, yeah. So, oh, so my flowchart said, yeah, you start with township and city. Can I go to the county? 'cause that was like a Kent County. Um, did they limit that? Do you know much about that health study? I, I looked into it, but I've forgotten a lot of it. But I've. DD (01:06:16): They've done a couple different health studies... RM (01:06:17): North Kent. Yeah. There's been different ones, you know, and affecting Michigan and their governance. And then, you know, we've had, um, Italy and Japan and what other countries can you think of that have been...? DD (01:06:28): Australia. RM (01:06:30): Australia that's been very, um, 'cause besides Wurtsmith, um, this epicenter has really helped explode the testing and the knowledge. I mean, right? <Laugh>. DD (01:06:47): 24 �Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. RM (01:06:50): Yeah. So, so yeah. Alright. I guess that's about it. DD (01:06:56): Well, thank you so much, Renee, for taking the time to talk with me today. New Speaker (01:06:59): You're very welcome. 25 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/468d76fb663640a3710095dfd16ac3ac.mp3 0053b46eff4e1dd3b7ecd18dae7213be Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource The Living with PFAS interviews were recorded during 2021 to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a group of chemicals used to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. These products include clothing, furniture, adhesives, food packaging, and heat-resistant non-stick cooking surfaces. They are considered "forever chemicals" in that they do not break down in the environment, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and they build up in fish, wildlife, and in the human body. Studies have shown that exposure to large amounts of PFAS may affect growth and development, reproduction, thyroid function, the immune system, and may injure the liver. More research is needed to assess the full health effects of exposure to PFAS. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0043 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mata, Renae Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-12-11 Title A name given to the resource Renae Mata, 2025 (Interview audio and transcript) Description An account of the resource Renae Mata describes drinking Plainfield Township water for years before learning it was contaminated with PFAS and reflects on the health implications for her family. She also discusses her later diagnosis of early-onset Parkinson’s disease and the questions it raises about long-term environmental exposure. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/61b95429dbe0bf3288fa99d75e8fe2d2.mp4 60ff07bf5b99036ac083bfc33ae8e2e8 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2c006ccc82049de6d5c5d005c4cf193f.pdf 6c44df5c20edc3f7f4aff26450e40901 PDF Text Text Living with PFAS Interviewee: Paul Golembiewski Interviewer: Dani DeVasto Date: November 6, 2025 Dani DeVasto (DD): I'm Dani DeVasto and today, November 6, 2025, I have the pleasure of chatting with Paul Golembiewski. Hi, Paul! Paul Golembiewski (PG): Very good. Thank you. DD : Thank you. Paul, can you tell me where you're from and where you currently live? PG: Grand Rapids, Michigan. Rockford, Michigan. It's not far. The same places basically. Went to school at the University of Michigan State. What am I saying? University of Michigan? Michigan State. Graduated with two degrees, horticulture and crop and soil sciences and have been working my own business for 43 years. And have lived here for 48. DD : And your business is? PG: Expressive Horticulture. Landscape design, installation, problem solving. I throw a lot of pesticides out there, so I'm aware of chemical use. And that would be of benefit probably to this discussion also. I'm lived here very intensely. Um, city lot. Planted 40 trees. Someone told me the last thing I planted was my feet. <laughs>. DD : And how long have you been in Rockford? PG: 47 DD : For 47 years? PG: Yeah. DD : 1 �Awesome. Paul, can you tell me a story or several stories about your experience with PFAS or with PFAS in your community? PG: Um, I'd like to start with a story that I was six years old and my parents loved to ride around on Sunday afternoons and, uh, in the old Oldsmobile with no AC and I'd get the middle of the backseat 'cause my sisters got the windows. And my dad was told of a gentleman in Rockford who had animals in cages on his front yard. My dad worked at Fisher Body and he knew he was a very good oh politician. Met a lot of, met a lot of people and knew them well. And so he'd always have conversations on where to go on a Sunday afternoon because he'd like to drive. So we ended up, my my recollection is we came down Oak Street and we went across the railroad. And the first house on the right was Mr. Cahill's house. The gentleman whose name is used on our road. PG: And sure enough, there were cages in the front yard. There was a, there was a bear, there was a black large cat. There were peacocks walking around. I think there might've been some monkeys. My sister Sue got out of the car and ran up the front door, and Mr. Cahill, you know, came to the door and invited her in the basement to look at other animals. And here's my parents not doing anything like, oh, yeah, go ahead. I mean, they, they didn't, they didn't give her permission, she just, just went. DD : Wow. PG: So she emerged about 15 minutes later, and while I was waiting, I looked to the, uh, northwest, which is where this development that I live now is, and it was totally barren. There wasn't a stick of a grass or weed, anything, nothing. And the smell...watering my eyes and burning my nose. And I asked my dad, what's that smell? And he says, oh, that's pig. That's why nobody moves to Rockford. DD : Hmm. PG: <laugh>. So later I found out that where I live was basically a field of the waste from the vats at Wolverine. And when the smell got to be too bad, they trenched it in. Now jump ahead 50 years. And this became a development. Nobody has record of where those trenches are. Nobody has any information on what was in those trenches, except it's obvious, it's lead, mercury, chromium, and likely PFAS later on. So this whole development had likelihood of a lot of contamination. Consequently, uh, because of HIPAA, you can't get enough information to know how people's health are, you know, their health is around here. But in my experience, there have been four premature deaths and several people with blood, bone and, um, oh, muscle activities, you know, that they can't do anymore. Um, two 10year-old kids who were next door to each other, but they were 10 years apart, and they played in the same sandbox. And when I got involved with Lynn McIntosh, I was responsible for taking soil samples. And I, I found that, uh, kind of a shaded area where the sandbox would've been between their two properties. It was right on the property line, and I took a sample and, uh, it was sent off to Prein and Newhof to be analyzed. Uh, it never came back. And Lynn and I found out later that all the samples were 2 �lost, or they were tossed intentionally. And that's because Wolverine instructed them to, they didn't want any of the soil tested from Rockford. DD : But you guys were paying for those tests? PG: Well, we never paid for 'em, because they never came back. <laugh>, DD : but they were like your own private tests? Samples? PG: Yeah. It was, it was very disheartening. We took other samples, and I think Lynn may have sent some of them out. Um, so let's keep this in some sort of chronological order. I'm jumping around a little bit. DD : Can I ask you a question? PG: Sure. DD : Um, Mr. Cahill, who is he? PG: Oh, he was the mayor, the chief of police, the, um, uh, the governor, the, um, he was every officer that could be possible for the city of Jericho. And, um, I went to his house about four or five years ago, and there was a new owner, and I asked if there were any, any sort of documents, any sort of newspapers of any sort left up in the attic, maybe used for insulation or anything. And they said they'll look, but I've never heard back from them. Um, but the, yeah, the city of Jericho was, uh, a sad place to be, unfortunately. Just, just a little side note. The, uh, just to the east of the bridge that goes over the Rogue River, that is the Jericho Road. There is a sandy level surface there. It's the only such surface that I know of on the Rogue River. I've canoed it a couple times. And the gentleman who bought the property there, Mill Pond, built the condos, did research to find out that that was an Indian trading post for 10,000 years. <laugh>. DD : Wow. PG: Yeah. And here's, uh, Jericho came in, put up a dam to flood their entire trading area. And the Indians just decided to leave. They, they didn't have much left to hunt anyway, because all the forests were gone, so the animals were not there anymore. So they basically agreed, you know, there was no 3 �skirmish at all. And, uh, so Jericho became a horrible place after a while. They were nice and friendly to the Indians at first. Now I got all this is, this is not directly from the Indians, but this information I got from Charles Hornbach, who was the owner and developer of that property. And he went back through archives, actual physical pieces of paper and the internet, and found this information. And, um, I'm very grateful for him doing that. And while I did the landscaping there, I found countless number of arrowheads and pieces of pottery, you know, so that, yeah. You can tell there was life there for a long time. Yeah. Anyway, so how about the next subject? DD : <laugh>. Alright. So, so you, yeah. You were six and seeing these animals in cages and seeing the, just the barrenness of the land up here. Um, and then you were talking about the, the trenches. But that there are no, there's no record, no. Of where the trenches have gone. And I assume no testing? PG: Uh, intentionally. And we'll get to that later. Living with PFAS, that's, that's the stuff that, um, this little interview will be very much valuable for with the information I have. But later on, I was told by the great, great grandson of the homesteader of that property, Mr. Giles, he said his grandfather was told it was fertilizer and to dump it on the, on the ground. And they could be in, in some way, having, you know, better crops, didn't do anything but kill everything. DD : Oops. PG: Yeah. Um, there's, there's a couple of side notes on that. I, I guess I could say this now that he told me that right along my property line was a two track that went to the railroad, that Wolverine at about, uh, 1915, got permission to dump their waste on the railroad's property because it was lead. A lot of, uh, arsenic is lead. So the railroad would spray the railroad bed twice a year with arsenic. So in this case, from, from what is my property line to 12 Mile became a dumping site right alongside the railroad. Because the, the terrain was possible to run a, what would be a, if you can imagine a truck from the 1915s, you know, the wheels are about, you know, six inches across and there may be 20 horsepower or flatbed. And they had barrels on them, and the barrels would slosh around while they would go, you know, down the two track and across and down to the railroad's property, and they'd dump them, just kick 'em off. PG: And imagine, you know, how ridiculous that would've been. But, so that was what Mr. Giles told me. So that's, that's firsthand information. I asked the DEQ if they could test the railroad, and they told me, oh, they already did. And there's nothing, there's, there's no lead. It's all set. Right. You got a hundred years of applying arsenic, and then you got Wolverine dumping on it. It doesn't make sense that it doesn't have contamination. I tell everybody to keep their dogs on the asphalt, and if it's a dry, dusty day, don't go out there because the dust is gonna be blowing and you're gonna get inhaling it. PG: Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. I skipped over the story between the two kids that were 10 years apart. Um, yeah. Uh, let's see. Kruisenga, Derek Kruisenga and his neighbor, neighbor of 10 years later, her name was 4 �Tammy, I don't have her last name. They both died of the same very rare nasal cancer. And it's because they played in that same sandbox, and there wasn't enough sand in it. And if you look at the terrain, it was right on top of a, of a ridge that the truck from 1915 would have then dumped and probably spilled over and ran down the hill, and probably on the wrong side. And so that area right there is probably very, very contaminated. And they were playing in the dust, and they both had a very horrendous death. They, they suffocated they had cancer in their sinuses that couldn't be cured. PG: Um, yeah. And I was really quite amazed that the, the doctor that was treating, um, Derek actually diagnosed that. He said, this is a chromium toxicity. And at that point, no one had even thought of that, so whatever happened to that information I don't know. It never was then found to be a serious issue, which again, at the end of this interview, I have a a point to make, but, well, let's see. Let me go on to, oh, yes. <laugh>, our founding fathers, can I mention their names? They're long gone. Rockford's founding fathers. Mr. Blakesley, Mr. Farmer and Mr. Krause. Mr. Krause was the architect of Wolverine Worldwide. In 1905, Ford began to want chrome bumpers. Mr. Kraus had been to Europe and saw where their plating process was great for cleaning up hides from pig hides for, for leather, because the acid would eat the remaining flush away without any having physical work to clean it. And in that same vat, there were lead, mercury, and chromium, which made the leather heavy and ductile. So their boots that they made at the time. They would advertise 'em as a hundred year boot <laugh>. I wouldn't wanna, I would imagine that. But, um, so that's how Mr. Kraus made his money. Now, these three gentlemen all agreed to allow the dumping of that solution wherever Wolverine wanted to get rid of it, because that was Mr. Krause's venture, and they all knew it had lead. Lead has been a poison for 6,000 years. So they just said, oh, okay, fine. No, the next generation will take care of it or the next. And they never kept, never kept any records. Uh, they did own Bell Disposal in the sixties, and basically it just disposed of their liquid waste up to House Street DD : Who owned Bell Disposal? PG: Yeah, the, uh, gentleman that told me that he lived on 10 Mile and was able to see the vats and the solution sloshing out as they go down the road. And some of the hides would come out and he'd run out in the street and pick 'em up and play with 'em. And today he's blind. DD : And Krause owned Bell disposal or Wolverine did? PG: Wolverine did, yeah. Krause was the, he made his money in, in lumber, and, uh, then went into the, uh, tanning industry. And disposed of all the waste wherever he could. But he picked up the waste because of the booming plating industry, because of the Ford company. All throughout Rockford, which would be Keeler Brass, McInerney Spring & Wire, and probably three dozen other little, you know, outlets that were plating. And when they, they could only use that material for about six to eight hours, then it'd get contaminated. So they would change it out, and Wolverine would come and pick it up for free, and they'd put their hides in it. And then they dispose of it wherever was easy for them to dispose of, which in my degrees, I could tell where the foliage was incorrect. Where the, the growth of trees had been 5 �suffering and lead grows trees to death. It, it accelerates their growth. So you would find, um, elm, box elder, uh, choke cherry, all soft wooded trees along the, along the trail and in other places I found about 104 that were showing very, um, disfigured growth and a lot of dead growth. I gave a partial list of that to the EPA during a, um, interview, and they pretty much discarded it. DD : Hmm. That must have been disappointing. PG: Yeah, I think I mentioned this when we talked earlier, um, that only, that was about six years ago, that the EPA was looking for liaisons that would be able to talk to the community through information that they would give us. It was not that at all. It was just a ruse. It was to find out how many people knew how much, and to make sure that that information wasn't so widespread that people would panic. So it was an attempt to just feel around to understand who knows what and why. And I'm sure they got to me, they didn't want anything to do with me. They didn't want me to go out and start telling people what I know. Because <laugh>, that would not be DD : You knew too much. PG: They would, they would, I don't wanna panic people. Yeah. In fact, I want to do the other. But, um, we'll get to that at the end of this. Let me go on with my stories here. I'll, I'll go a little quicker. Um, I have a gentleman friend that I've known for several years. He and his wife live just over on Childsdale. And Carol had a condition that was never, uh, diagnosed and she had lower GI um, cancers and chronic pain and such that it was just horrific. Um, the back of their house is a ravine that had some water in it, which is the MO for Wolverine. They look for places just off the roadway that are already wet, and then they, they can dump their liquid and it's not as obvious. And, um, the gentleman that lived in that house before worked for Wolverine and had nine foster kids. <laugh>. DD : Oh my. PG: So it really didn't work. So what the fact was, he was being paid by Wolverine to dump, and at Carol and Conrad's backyard. And I had that as one of my sites with the EPA, and I never got notice back. But Carol had very serious health issues. And, uh, they divorced. And she's, she's okay. She's had a lot of surgeries, and she's been through chemo several times. So, and that's one story. Uh, let's see another story. DD : And those were neighbors of yours on Childsdale? PG: Yeah. Right up here, about a quarter mile away. My, uh, former cousin-in-law, Tom Breihof lived, he, he passed away from, again, lower GI cancer concerns. And he lived on the site that was later, much later, 6 �announced that from House Street to the Grand River, there was an underwater or underground, um, movement of that water from House Street, which was where there was a large amount of contamination for almost 20 years. Boy, you see what they do with that now. They really cleaned it up, maybe, but he lived and he had a well, and he drank his own water there, you know, so that was likely how he was affected. I've had two other accounts in that neighborhood. Um, one, the gentleman died when he was in his mid fifties of cancer. The other, while I was working there, they had health issues, and their backyard was literally seeping water, and they were lower than House Street on the other side of 131 Highway. By about maybe a half a mile, but they were right on top of that aquifer that was draining into the Grand River. And, uh, my job was to drain their backyard. Didn't know it at the time that it was, you know, likely PFAS. The water was, um, very, uh, it had an iridescent sheen to it, so it had oil in it. Um, but it was, it was a lot. I mean, we, we, we put in three tile lines and they ran water out just constantly into a wetland area behind their house, which then I also gave to the EPA. I get nothing. It's, it's, it's right around houses that are worth half a million dollars. And that's another issue that drives this. Property values. PG: So let's see. Next story. Oh, yeah. Right near the Rogue off of 12 Mile, Rogue River, there's a, uh, a development, it's a dead end road. There are 10 houses on that street. I did work for two of them. And while I was there, the account that I was working on said that there were nine people in those households, nine outta 10, that were suffering from cancer and are not expected to live. They all had wells, and they all were on a wetland or near a wetland that was used by Wolverine. Another site I gave to the EPA, nothing happened. Um, right now there's a, there's a new dog park just down the street from there. <laugh> and I, I look at that and I, I, the dogs have access to the river and, you know, people are there, you know, they, they've got a drinking fountain. I don't know. It must be a, well, I don't think so. I don't know. They must have had city water come into there because this, this development also had city water. But just recently. It had been almost 15 years that they were still using their wells. And all those houses sold out. I mean, they, they sold most everything, all those people that were there when I was there. They all sold their homes. DD : And left. PG: Yeah. So you know, talk about you don't really wanna publicize this stuff. But you have to. But, but there's, there's concentrations in places that are overwhelming. And then there's just a general understanding that, that these contaminations exist everywhere. I, I can drive down the road and I can look at just off the, off the side of the road, if there's a wetland area, you can right away see that it's contaminated. There's one DD : What, what kinds of things do you see that clue you in? PG: Trees that are growing like this <laugh>. I mean, they just don't, they have a very poor form, or they've rotted away, and then they're still trying to grow some more growth on them. And, you know, they're, they're terrible in that they, they can't, you know, they're growing too fast. They're, they're trying to, uh, 7 �grow more cells. It's cancer. And there's a, there's a holding pond at Rockford Public Schools, right between baseball fields. And that was a site that I told the EPA was, you know, to go test for. Two weeks ago. Now, this was nine years ago, eight years ago, I told 'em to. Last two weeks, they put up signs, metal signs every 30 feet. Caution, stand back. Do not enter, do not approach. Very serious language, very serious metal signs. Probably cost as much as a fence would've been <laugh>. But I'm sure that, you know, teenagers will be teenagers look, you know, looking through this and go pick up frogs that are, you know, dead and dying in there. DD : So someone's doing something PG: Yeah. That, what is is that? It's just a bandaid, you know? PG: Uh, let's see. Um, oh, I was on a, a site on Plainfield. And, um, this was for a, oh, a little retail, a strip mall. And I was in charge of the outdoor landscaping and such, and I was there to make sure that the excavation was gonna take place correctly. And, uh, we had an excavator putting in the, uh, I think it was a gas line. And he excavated down and he found metal barrels down about four feet in the ground. And so we dug around a little bit, and there were about half a dozen of them. They called the township, um, inspector over. And the inspector looked at them and waved his hands like this and walked away. They reburied the barrels and they rerouted the line. DD : Oh. PG: That, that whole area, that Plainfield and East Beltline was once a swamp. It was barely trackable in the 1900s. And then they put in a little sand, um, berm. So, you know, you could run a little truck over it or something. But, but that was all filled in. And that is also the location of Plainfield Township's water supply. It's the, the lake, DD : The current, the current location? PG: Yes. It's, it's the lake right to the east. It's, it's even got a public swimming area. No boats allowed, but I can't remember the name of the lake right now. <laugh>. But, but, uh, that's DD : Is that Versluis? PG: Versluis. Thank you. Thank you. So that's their water source for Plainfield Township. I was told by a prominent person regarding the, uh, they worked at the Plainfield, uh, offices and, 'cause we, I, I 8 �brought up the fact that that was all filled in and I can't imagine that that lake has clean water at all. And, uh, she said that the incidences of cancer and serious, serious health issues in Plainfield is 30% higher than the national average. They don't want that publicly known. Also, in the 1940s, there was a landfill just to the south of that by a quarter mile up by where Robinette's is. Just the other side of the road. You'll see these mounds that are there, and you'll see the pipes that come up every so often. So the, the property near Robinette's to the northeast driving down East Beltline, you'll see that there's this barren hillside with pipes sticking up and it's all fenced off. That was a landfill in the thirties that Wolverine used to dump serious amounts of PFAS and that drains into Versluis Lake. Now, they went through extensive amount of effort to ensure that the, that landfill doesn't have the opportunity to have enough water sourced actually, you know, penetrate the ground and go into the lake. So what they did was they, they put in wells, put in probably 30 wells all around so they could suck the water out continuously. And then on a Sunday afternoon, a Sunday morning, for some reason I was going down East Beltline and there's no churches there that I go, I don't go to church <laugh>. Sorry. So there's a lot of churches there. PG: But on a Sunday morning, I was going by there and there were, uh, at least a hundred guys that were rolling out white PVC over that entire, like, 10-12 acres site. And they were gluing the seams together. And then they, later on in the week, they then brought in top soil and put top soil over the PVC liner. So that way there's no water that can get through. Imagine the expense. Yeah. It's just an, an incredible expense. Why in, why does Wolverine get away with this? You know, it's so many ways in places that they've contaminated, it would be impossible to clean them all up. But this one is possible. It's a very condensed area. It's just like House Street. DD : That landfill. I think I've heard about it before. It's, um, Wolverine, this was not, Wolverine was not the only company dumping there. PG: Correct. It was not DD : So that, that also probably gets them out of PG: Yeah. Liability had to be stretched out over several people. And what, and then Wolverine could say, excuse me, <laugh>. DD : Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Okay. PG: Yeah. Okay. Let's see. What do I got here? Oh, I worked at the, uh, the CEO of Owen-Ames and Kimball, um, who built most of the schools in Rockford. I worked at his house for 25 years. Um, the house is worth probably 10 to 12 mill. It was right on the Rogue River. And, um, he told me the story of when he 9 �bought the place that it was just a little shack and it was all in need of all kinds of things. Of course, being involved in <laugh> Owen-Ames and Kimble, things got really fixed up and really very nicely. And, uh, the wellhead that was part of the original house was right next to the front door. And on the north side of the house, about 50 feet away was a wetlands that was right off of Algoma. And there was a nice little roadway back to four other homes further out into the woods and on the Rogue. And, uh, that was a site that Wolverine used. Um, the owner of the house knew it. When I told him what information I knew, he and his wife looked at me like deer, you know, staring at the headlights because they didn't want, they didn't want any way of suggesting that they already knew that 'cause their property values. And, uh, so the, the wellhead was moved to 150 feet away from the house, right at the very farthest point of their property. And the furthest they could get away from that wetland. Um, they still had five, six gallon containers of water delivered to their house every week. They still had a refrigerator in the garage stocked with bottled water. And all their grandkids and their kids all drank from that. Nobody drank from the water. But he was very smart. He probably had that tested soon after they moved in because he may have even suspected that the growth of those trees was not right. Everything was just twisted and gnarled and, uh, and it's right on the Rogue River, which, let's see, that is, yeah, that's, uh, upstream from where I discussed about the nine households that had cancer. But there are several other places along the Rogue River that are very easily accessible. And again, the MO of Wolverine is to have found a way that they could just park alongside a road or pull into a very, uh, well established roadway that's solid enough for a very heavy truck to dump all the liquids into the wetlands and down a slope. PG: It's a, it's really obvious to see those places and, you know, right away the trees, most people will probably think, well, that's just wetland and that's what trees look like when they're sitting in water. That's not the case. I can show you plenty of cases where there are wetlands that don't have that. Well, anyway, uh, <laugh>, uh, let's see. Oh yeah. Recently, I had an account. Well, let me, let me back up on, on Lake Bella Vista. Are you familiar with Lake Bella Vista? DD : Yes. PG: Okay. I don't think there's a home on the lake, no matter how small or how insignificant it is, that isn't worth over a mill. Right now, I've seen houses that are worthless places on the lake selling for 2.3. DD : because they're on the lake? PG: Yeah, they're on the lake. Um, I did the condos on the lake back in the early nineties. And, uh, there were two wells that were drilled on the condo property that were designed to keep the lake full of water because the lake was manmade. And it was supposed to be sealed with clay. Of course, you know, there are going, it's a huge place, you know, so there's always gonna be some, some ways in what the water gets out plus evaporation. But there may be one little spring in there someplace. But I wouldn't touch that either. But, um, so while we're working there, um, the water would flow a lot. I mean, there was a stream that was probably four feet wide and, and 10 inches deep of water flowing in all the time. 10 �Um, and I'll jump ahead to last year, I was working at a house, um, not far from there. And, um, one of my projects was to ensure that there was gonna be enough water for irrigation. And I looked at their water meter and it had a five eighth inch water meter. So I went to their association and I got permission to put in a one inch water meter because they didn't have much water running out in the yard. It was very poor water pressure and not a lot of volume. An irrigation system would've been a lot more expensive. 'cause you gotta put in more valves and more, more heads to be able to cover it. Uh, so I, I put in a one inch meter and, um, I, as I'm doing this, I'm cutting the pipes. I've had water turned off at the road, and I'm cutting the pipes and I'm measuring, I'm putting it in, and I cut the pipe and I look inside the pipe, and here it is nearly blocked with a black jello like stuff. It is. Um, I, I stuck my finger in it thinking, well what's this? <Laugh>. DD : Oh, Paul PG: Well, I take other measures. I wash my hands right away. But, um, it was, it was not a salt, it would've dissolved. It was not an organic compound. 'cause that would've, you know, rinsed away. Um, it, it was not a water soluble con, it's not a water soluble product at all. Okay. Think about PFAS. Okay. Teflon does not, you know, in any way, uh, connect with any other surface. So water is one of them. So here it is just at the meter, it slows down and this, this goo collects there. That, that's what was shutting off the water supply to the whole house, which they had a little tiny water filter. And the gentleman says, yeah, that's good enough. But that's another story. But anyway, so I I, I put the water meter in and I saved the pieces of pipe that I cut out. And I called the water authority. And the water authority that week had just changed hands. In other words, they hired somebody else to take care of the water around Lake Bella Vista because it's a closed system. PG: And the gentleman that came out, two of them had no history at all of what Lake Bella Vista was. They barely knew that it was a manmade lake. Now, when I did the condos, I was told that the wells were also going to feed the houses for a short time on the, uh, north or southeast corner of the lake, because they didn't have enough homes to afford a massive system with a wa with a water tower and, and had and water, um, wells. Which by the way, they did about 10, 12 years later. And they put it at the exact opposite place on the other side of the lake, furthest away from the condos, furthest away from what was the most likely dumping site because it was the lowest part of the lake. It was, it was a swampy area. It was called Grass Lake. I remember seeing it before it was ever excavated. And that was where they could have easily had access to it. Well, um, these two gentlemen had no idea. Well, I was, I told them that those two wells are still feeding this side of the lake. They should have been shut off 20, 25 years ago. And that's why the neighbors all around this cove were getting sick. Two people had died. And the people that live there are not very healthy. Um, low, low energy. They're going to the doctor often. Um, and they're using water from their faucets. So, uh, I told these guys, I said, you know, this has gotta stop. You gotta do something, you know, you gotta expand, you know, the water system around this side of the lake. Okay. Jump ahead a year later. And the wells are turned off. PG: Lake Bella Vista's water level now is down almost 18 inches. People can't get their boats in because in some cases it's too shallow. They can't run their jet skis because you gotta have 18 inches above the 11 �sand. Otherwise they're, you know, they burn out the, the pump. So there's all sorts of people wanting to know what's going on. Nobody's telling them. I know. Because they shut those wells off because the people on that side of the lake are finally getting water from another source. And it could be from Plainfield Township, who's been putting in a lot of water lines, although I haven't seen any construction there. It may be that they continued off to the, to the other side of the lake and used a bigger pump or dug another well, where their water tower is. But the, the creek doesn't run water into the lake anymore. So I know those wells are shut off. DD : That's a significant water difference for two wells. PG: What do you mean, sorry? DD : Like 18 inches down. And it, you think it was the two wells that got shut off? PG: Yeah. PG: That's a lot of supply. PG: Yeah. These are two eight inch wells. And there's a separate pumphouse for them. And there's, they probably run on 4-40 and they run day and night. And, uh, that's why the, uh, the service fees for like Bella Vista is something like $1,800 a year, which is probably not bad anymore. If they keep it there. But the, um, the, the new Water Authority looked into when I told them to look into it, and, you know, it took them a year before they, they recognized what the problem was. I just told an account, this goes back to my summary about that the lake has excessive amount of PFAS. DD : Has anyone tested Lake Bella Vista's water? PG: I again told EPA. They didn't. They probably did. They don't wanna let it out. Because these are million dollar homes. You know, people are gonna get really upset. A lot of lawsuits, they're gonna take, you know, EPA to court, a lot of lost time, a lot of money. So, but there, there's probably a lot of other contaminations in there too. DD : Did the, the black goo in the pipe ever get tested? PG: 12 �Uh, I gave it to the water authority, and I don't know, <laugh>, DD : Did the homeowners have anything to say? Or did they not see it? PG: Oh, they saw it. I, I showed the gentleman when I, you know, first cut it, he was home. I stuck my pinky in there and I said, look, <laugh>, DD : now we know why you didn't have water. PG: I only did it one time. I didn't do it twice. But, um, they were, they were bo both, uh, Air Force, uh, retirees. And they still make a lot of money doing related. And, uh, they told me that, well, if the Air Force didn't kill 'em, whatever's in the water is not gonna kill 'em. I, you know, I can't argue with that <laugh>. So you, but yeah. You know, they went through survival training and, you know, they had to, they had to eat crow and all sorts of fun stuff, you know, so but, um, yeah. So, so that's that whole ring of effort there. PG: And I, well, I did talk to an account and kind of the subject came up about the lake being low. And I told her about the wells being down and why. And she says, you mean the lake is contaminated? And I said, I wouldn't doubt it. I don't know if it's been tested, but I highly would <laugh> imagine that it has, because there's so many people and there's so much liability. And she got a little upset with me that I would suggest that Lake Bella Vista is toxic. I didn't quite say that. She asked me, is it contaminated? And I said, likely. That was just, you know, gotta be so careful. PG: Okay. Next effort. Uh, let's see. Oh yeah, I told you a certain, I won't name it, very prominent, um, engineering firm on East Beltline. I can say that much. Um, took my soil samples and threw them away. And at the same time I had insight that was, it was one of their employees that, that told me later that they were told by Wolverine. They didn't want, they weren't supposed to test anything from Rockford. So that's firsthand. PG: Uh, let's see. Hey, we're onto the second page. Almost done. Um, Lynn, when Lynn McIntosh first met up with me, she was riding her bike. She saw me out and she wanted to stop and, you know, say something about the landscape. And then she identified herself and, uh, she wanted me to try to have, you know, some understanding of where the contamination was. And that's when I told her about, you know, trees being disformed. So I, I said, well, just, I'll show you something. I said, so we walked out, we walked to the trail, and if you look to the east, you'll find nothing but disfigured trees. Soft wooded trees. A lot of 'em have fallen over recently. And the brush is gonna be there forever. 'cause they can't get a, a heavy truck on there with a chipper <laugh>, one thing only put one inch of asphalt out there. They shouldn't have done that. So, <laugh>. But you look to the, you look to the east, and the trees are 13 �gorgeous. They're absolutely beautiful because the creek stopped the buckboard and the little truck from going that way. And the, the, the creek wandered all the way up to the north. So this was the dividing line between here and 12 mile DD : Your house. PG: Yeah, so the property on my, on my property line is very contaminated. I don't do much of there. On the other side, it's not. DD : And the, the, um, the trail runs behind your house, right? PG: Yes. Correct. Runs parallel to the back property line. Yeah. So I, I showed Lynn that, and she, she got pretty excited about the fact that that was so obvious. DD : The cont the, the damaged trees are to the west or the east PG: To the, to the east. DD : To the east, yeah. And then west of it is...? PG: Yeah. From here to 12 mile is the worst. And, uh, it's a big difference. Um, and again, told the EPA nothing <laugh> one of the other sites. Should I stop saying that? <laugh> uh, let's see. See, I told you about the baseball pond and has the signs up. Uh, okay. I can, I can summarize this. Um, I, I own a, uh, tfel fry pan. Teflon. And I would never give that up. You'd have to prime my dead hand off of it before I'd give it up. <laugh>. I make breakfast every morning. And if I'm gonna clean the fry pan for, for more than 30 seconds, that's years off of my life cleaning a fry pan. So, okay. PFAS standing in the kitchen cleaning a fry pan, <laugh>. So, you know, the point is, um, there's toxins everywhere. And Wolverine got to the point where, where they knew that there was going to be more PFAS, there was going to be more lead, there was going to be more toxins. And there, there still is. I mean, there are a lot of things that we take for granted, like dish soap. How do we know that dish soap doesn't build up and then have effects on our environment and us, you know, nobody wants to know that. And if it does, if there's a, no one's gonna afford the testing for that because somebody's gonna be in very deep trouble <laugh>. So, um, yeah, nobody wants to know it's the norm. And without really knowing what is the norm, there's no absolutes, there's no, there's no guidelines, there's no baseline, there's, there's nothing. We all live in an industrial area that always has and always will be contaminated until, you know, you get up to, uh, probably Manistee, you know, you gotta go further north <laugh>, it's just, Ludington maybe. There's probably not a lot of industrial, uh, environments there. 14 �PG: They, there, there's a river. So there probably was some, at some point, whenever there's a river, there's gotta be some, some industry that decided they're going to make something and dump their waste into it. But further north, you go the further off of 94, you get goes east west, and so then you're out of the corridor. So shipping becomes a problem. So as global warming occurs and everybody goes north, hey, it'll probably be a better lifestyle. <laugh> who knows but, uh, yeah, Rockford, Rockford is toxic by design. It's, it's always gonna be that way. Uh, Wolverine did probably the most damage. And, uh, the, uh, the EPA did this huge cleanup, right where Wolverine was, where, where the tanning plant was, but they neglected to do the river. Now there's a dam immediately there. So lead chromium, zinc, they're very heavy. They're heavy elements. PG: They settle in the lowest spots. So the opposite side of that dam is probably one of the most contaminated areas. Someday that dam isn't gonna be there, it's gonna break, and all that stuff is gonna float down river. It is now, because it's being agitated all the time. A lot of it, you know, still comes around, but there's, that needed to be cleaned up. I mentioned that. Nothing happened. You know, they, they did the land, they, they actually trenched and dug and did a fine job. Uh, they did a fine job on House Street too. An enormous project. Took them four years. And I, it was, it was very similar to the, the landfill on East Beltline. They, they took out all the vegetation. And Lynn, you know, said to us that, that all had to go to Byron Center's landfill because it was toxic. PG: Now the trees are toxic. I didn't know that. Now that means all this vegetation along here is also toxic. You know, if you're, you're sitting there with a chainsaw and you're cutting up a dead tree that was on the railroad's property, and you're getting this dust from this, and Yeah. You, you shouldn't be there. No one should even be on the trail. It, it should have been fenced off and forgot about it. Oh. There's portions, portions of the trail further on the, the Mesquite Trail that go to Muskegon. They, they did that 'cause of contamination from, um, farm, uh, concerns for, um, factory farm for cattle. That they can't clean it up. And it's, it's got a lot of heavy metals in it. And so they just blocked off the trail indefinitely. DD : I can't imagine that happening for the White Pine. It's such a big thing. PG: Yeah. They should have signs up. You know, stay on the trail. Don't let your dog wander away. Stay off of this. And if it's dusty, if it's hot, if it's dry, don't go there. <laugh>. That's not gonna happen. You gotta have signs that show that, you know, people falling over on, on the ground around <laugh>. But, uh, so, you know, toxins are everywhere. And here's my point, the last thing. People are complacent, and they have to be, they have to be, otherwise they would panic. They'd go crazy thinking about all the things they have to be concerned about. And if life expectancy doesn't get beyond, you know, 75 or whatever it is, 78 now, then I guess that's okay. Um, you can't expect anymore if you're going to expect a Teflon coated fry pan <laugh>. And, you know, I, I gained three years of my life with that. So what, what I, you know, <laugh>, you know, I don't wanna stand by the sink that long. You know, there, there's just things you have to have to give up. And so I'm, you know, I, I don't want to burst your bubble or anybody else's, but we all live with a lot of toxins and they're not gonna go away. And, uh, if in fact, in the time, in the future that there is a way to clean this stuff up easily, marvelous. But there's gonna be side effects to 15 �that too. Probably cost, if anything, but um. Even in the cooling towers and the smoke stacks for what, what our power plants, they spray them down with PFAS on an every other week basis to keep the, the byproducts from accumulating so they all fall to the bottom. PG: And of course it all goes up in the air. There was a study done back early 2000s that from, Port Sheldon Power Plant, which is 46 miles away from us, their stacks, if you take a, a 60 degree angle out of those stacks to the west, that the incident of breast cancer is quadrupled for the next 30 miles. So we're just to the east of that. But you can imagine, you know, they're burning coal. Um, they were supposed to shut down and Trump said, no, don't shut down. Now they're going, I don't know, a couple more years. That makes some real good sense. PG: But, you know, again, this information, it, it either gets forgotten or it's not to be public. It's, it's to be, not to frighten anybody, let's just imagine what healthcare costs would be. What, you know, you wanna, you want a rider in your healthcare plan that says if you, if you are, you know, deemed to be too toxic to burn your body, <laugh>, they have to ship you over to Byron Center's landfill where, where everything else is toxic already. You know, because it, it's just a matter of, uh, there's no absolutes, there's no understanding it, there's nothing more than just be aware of it and do what you can to safeguard yourself. I eat chicken bones, a lot of chicken boats, <laugh> not, not the shafts, but the ends of the bones. I get a source of calcium that replaces the calcium that I, that I use every day. That's a whole other story, which I, I know you don't want to hear <laugh>, my kids don't ever wanna hear it either. <laugh>, I got one of them, one outta the four that's finally eating. No two, got two that are now eating their chicken bones. Sometimes <laugh>. DD : Oh my goodness. PG: So that, that would be the premise of how I feel. Yeah. And it's not easy. Yeah. DD : I'm, I guess it's striking me listening to all these different stories that your line of work has really put you in a position to see things in a way that most people don't get to see. You know, you're seeing both the kind of work you do, but also that you, you know, are working at all these different places in the area, PG: Black goo in someone's plumbing. Yeah. That's. DD : Like, you're just, you, your perspective is, is really like, you have a lot of data points in a lot of ways. So I think that's just, um, that's just not a perspective that, you know, most people, it's like, it's, it's me, it's here, it's in my neighborhood, or it's my thing. And you have all these different kind of reference points, which is very interesting. 16 �PG: I'm a very, um, empathetic and very, uh, observant person. And I'll, you know, toot my own in that way. But, um, so I, maybe that's why I, I see all these things. I don't know. I don't know if other people do and then they just don't, you know, take a, a moment to think about it. But, um, DD : Do you have concerns about, um, like exposure through your work? I mean, if you're, if you're digging in soil or you know, you're doing all these projects, um, do you have concerns for yourself? PG: I have for the last 45 years, applied some very horrific pesticides. And I don't wanna sound like those people that, you know, went through the Air Force and decided that if they didn't die from that, you know, that they're not gonna die from PFAS. But, but, um, I, I take, you know, some, uh, responsibilities to know what I'm using and what its action is. I stay away from any nerve agents. There's very safe pesticides out there in the last 22 years now that, um, you can spray on yourself. They're, they're actually labeled that way. They're, they're bifens. Well, bifen is a product name, but they're, uh, pyrethrins, which are made from, uh, originally made from, uh, chrysthemum and eucalyptus extracts. Now they're made synthetically. And you can buy the, the original, which is made from those two products. PG: Or you can buy the synthetic, which is a lot less money. And it works the same, but it, it is so safe. Um, it actually can be sprayed on the surface of your skin and on your clothing if you go out camping to keep out mites to keep out, uh, ticks and fleas. Um, I don't <laugh>, I, I don't do a lot of camping, but I do a lot of spraying. And I get a lot of, you know, overspray. I think I sprayed about 69, 68 people last year, and each of these places was a hundred gallons minimally. And they don't have a single insect for a year. And, uh, they can't be happier. Um, no spiders, no anything. No ants. Ants is a big thing because if you let ants get away, you know, they can destroy your house and your trees, you know, landscape, they can undermine your concrete. I have had so many people think that their driveway is cracking up because it was poorly installed. No, it was ants, <laugh>. They, after 25 years, the ants have moved out the sand and they've created their space. I could stop talking anytime. You could tell me. Shut up. DD : <laugh>. No, but, um, so it sounds like maybe you're not concerned about PFAS exposure for yourself through work. PG: Uh, boy, or That's a good question. I, I, um, no, I guess, well, one other little story I have, when I first moved here in '78, um, when 1980 came along, I looked at, I had been looking at Rockford's water supply was the Rogue River. It was just downstream from Wolverine Worldwide. And I was, I was mentioning this to people around here, and I says, what are we, what are we drinking here? We we're getting the water, just, it's going through a, a swimming pool filter, you know, diatomaceous earth. And, you know, it's supposed to be cleaned up and it's, that's not getting, you know, the chemicals out. So I went to at the time. DD : 17 �So what was, what was, what were people's reactions as you were...? PG: Oh, they, they thought I was, no, it's fine. Of course they wouldn't, you know, they wouldn't put poison in the water. And why would anybody do that? So I went to Builder Square at the time, you're not old enough, <laugh>. It was the first big box, uh, national chain. It was owned by Kmart. And on the shelf, I looked at all their water purification systems, and they had, well, larger, no, this was the larger one, <laugh>. It had a reverse osmosis filter in it, and a sediment filter and a carbon filter. And they were big filters, and this thing was big. And it took up the entire space underneath my cabinet in the kitchen. And, uh, I brought it home, cost a thousand dollars in 1980. And my wife said, no. I said, yes. I said, we're not drinking that water. Now, to this day, my kids are all very healthy and sane. Knock on wood. I don't have any but <laugh>. But I, I have other neighbors who they, you know, they don't have a filtration system, and they have health issues. They have fatigue issues. They have, um, poor reflex to, you know, food items. They get allergies, they get, uh, um, what's it, um, <laugh>, I said it earlier. But, but they have other concerns that, that are easily cured. You have to create, create for yourself an environment of your body that can withstand that. And your skin is your most important organ and it's the largest one, and you better make sure it stays perfect. I don't have any cracking. I don't have any soreness. And as of, you know, last year I calculated the amount of, you saw the trailer out front with the firewood in it. Okay. I've been doing that for 37 years, and sometimes many earliest years, I'd handle that amount of wood six times before it was burned. Now I got it down to like three, but I did the calculating over 37 years, and I have moved 1 million ton of wood personally. DD : Wow. PG: Yeah. DD : Wow. And, and it's, can I ask, how old are you? PG: 71. DD : 71. And it's, and you credit chicken bones. PG: What was that? DD : You give the credit to the chicken bones. PG: 18 �Well and we also eat, uh, products that are mostly organic. Or if they're not organic, they are no pesticides, hormones or antibiotics. And I go outta the way to get it. Um, we, we haven't gone out to eat in <laugh>, I don't remember, it's probably five plus years. Maybe we've gone out once or twice in there. But I don't trust, uh, food in a restaurant because they're always trying to make a profit. They're gonna give you whatever they can that's gonna make them money. And that's not gonna be the healthiest stuff. But we do eat Qdoba once in awhile we like that, but we don't eat burgers out anywhere. We eat organic ground beef. I, I buy salmon from Alaska. Um, which I still have. I have enough right now. But yeah, I eat fish two or three days a week. And, uh, so that's my efforts to get away from the contaminants. Yeah. Um, there's probably another three dozen of 'em. You don't want to hear my DD : No. But it does make, so I, you know, you've got the filter are on your street. Are you, are you on city water here? PG: Yes. Yes. And I just bought a new filter because the other one I couldn't get parts for and it was starting to leak. And the other one I got now is really nice. The first one I had, this is, it was a water pic, and it was one of the earlier, um, reverse osmosis, and it took 11 gallons of water to make one gallon of filtered water. So my water bills were always kind of high. Yeah. Plus I, you know, irrigate and, but, um, I cut my pipes here and I'm looking in the pipes. There is phosphorus, which is what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to be a coating. It's supposed to be white. So I know that there's no buildup of that much. PFAS. The, there's a pamphlet that comes out every year, and it's always suggesting that the, now the PFAS doesn't exist. PG: Well, it does, but their wells are well away from, from Wolverine. There's three eight inch wells that are water, our water source. And that has been in service now for, oh, since 06, 07. But I did hear through the gentleman who I mentioned earlier, who's the engineer. I asked him, I think the last couple days, no days, not months. Um, how's the water doing? And he says the aquifer is half empty, so there's gonna be a time when we're probably gonna have to switch. And the only other source of water is Lake Michigan, which was an option for Rockford. But the previous manager decided he was gonna do the well thing and then do, um, Wolverine or have, uh, the water sewer system. Oh, yeah. There's another caveat to that. <laugh>. This, this is, this is fun. Um, we were told by the city manager that we were going to have, um, the water sewer North Kent water sewer authority paid for by Wolverine. OK. And the sewer line, Wolverine was gonna pay for it all the new sewer line and the, the sewer cleaning facility. And, um, I dunno if they were gonna throw in the new wells there or not, but it was going to cost Wolverine, uh, over 20 years, millions of dollars a year to be able to afford to do that. Well, um, at the time they announced that, uh, about two and a half years went by, and then our city manager said, oops, Wolverine's no longer gonna pay for this, so everybody in Rockford's gonna have to pay for it. So my water bill now has an additional charge of $45 every billing period, which is two months. Um, and that's gonna go on 40 years <laugh>. But at the time, they, that Wolverine had announced that they were going to pay for it. They had already bought the permits to build in Big Rapids and move their facility there for tanning hides. So they weren't going to be using the sewer, they weren't gonna be using the, the sewage treatment plant. That was just our city manager wanting them to announce that. So the people in Rockford will all get all happy and excited and that he was doing a fine job and Wolverine is being so nice, <laugh>, but it was all planned. It was all planned. Two and a half years later, he said, oops, sorry. Uh, everybody's gonna have to be charged now. 19 �PG: <laugh>, It's corruption everywhere. You, you just, it's like it toxic, toxic substances. And then there's toxic people, there's toxic events, and then yeah. Everybody wants to have some sort of power and control, and they, they want to see if they can get away with it. Um, that's unfortunate. But it's, yeah. To, to preserve yourself, you have to know the facts. You have to feel that you are capable of making decisions, which also is, I'm still in Rockford and I know why the water system is the way it is, that I know that there's contaminants everywhere. And, um, and they're not just PFAS. Um, DD : So you sort of maybe hinted at this, um, but what concerns do you have about PFAS contamination kind of moving forward from here, if any? PG: Right in my neighborhood? DD : Locally or broader. PG: I, I guess I see it as being still being used. Um, there is not enough regulation on where and how it goes after it's been used. And if it can be contained at all. I don't, you know, the, the whole effort to give us a limit on how much PFAS can be in our water or any other sources around us is just a cover up. There's not, it's not ever going to be controlled. There's not ever gonna be enough testing. Um, there's not gonna be enough ways to try to change that substance into something that is not toxic. You know, the research to do that, I'm sure there is some, probably the makers of Teflon have to come up with something, or they have to have a, you know, a laboratory someplace, you know, that looks like they're trying. People are greedy. They're gonna keep being greedy and eat your chicken bones <laugh>. That's all DD : <laugh>. PG: Oh, it's, it's, I don't know. I, I find that, uh, I've been very fortunate and my kids are all very healthy. And I, I do know that in the past, some of my relatives have probably passed because of alcoholism before anything else, or they, they were not recognized as being, um, gay. So, you know, they committed suicide. So those are concerns too. Mentally. And, uh, I don't know. It, it's a, it's a crazy mixed bag of everything around us and probably PFAS may not be the worst. DD : I should ask you, before we wrap up, if there is anything that you'd like to add that we haven't touched on, or anything that you want to go back to, to say more about? PG: 20 �I, I have to give Lynn McIntosh enormous amount of credit. Wow, she is just one great woman, <laugh>. Yeah. If it weren't for her, I don't know where this would've gone. You know, I mean, she used me for information, but she put it all together. She presented it, she went to all the council meetings. She went to fight, you know, for some sort of understanding. And, uh, yeah. That's great. Yeah, there's been a couple of other people, I, I don't know them personally. I was part of the CCRR group and, you know, it's still kind of casually am. Um, Lynn kind of keeps me in tow, but, um, I've been so busy, <laugh>. But, uh, yeah, I, I really do have to give her probably 99% of the credit. Yeah. PG: And, uh, for me, it's just been, just been in the wrong place, or the right place at the right time, wrong time, whatever, you know, people open up, I see things that are not normal. I recognize that there's, uh, extenuating circumstances that should be looked into and never are. And I had my chance to talk to the EPA. Over an hour and a half, three very nice people that sat across the conference table. And I told 'em what I knew and how many ways they could check and test. Um, they didn't get back with me. Of course, <laugh>, there was never, never any liaison. DD : When did you meet with the EPA for that? When did, when was that? PG: Uh, four years ago. DD : Oh, so somewhat recently. PG: Yeah. Yeah. And they were just doing a, a fishing to find out who knew and how much, and to know if they had to try try to find out a way to be, uh, calming people down. Yeah. I've tried in so many ways to not be hysterical, not be playing, you know, commenting, you know, commenting, commenting to people that, you know, this is not good. There have been people on my street though, that I have told 'em not to let their kids play in the sandboxes. Uh, just, just abandoned them. And kids that had, you know, parents that had kids that were, uh, young toddlers and yeah. There have been incidences of, of childhood cancer here that, that really are out, out of the line. I mean, way outta line. I have warned people, you know, to, you know, if they have a, a daycare in their house. Uh, the, um, the development right to the north of me is also where, well, that's where the, the field was that the, you know, Mr. Giles' great-great grandfather had been, well, great-grandfather had been dumping or allowing Wolverine to dump. So they have a, a holding area, <laugh>, little retention pond that, that's built up like a up. And <laugh>, there's an overflow that goes down, Jericho. PG: Oh, yeah. There is one other story I should tell you anyway, that, that water goes into a, a storm drain that by all regulations, all ordinances, state, federal should have gone into a retention pond. And it had to be a a hundred feet away from the, from the bank of a water source. Which was be the Rogue River. Well, they, they ran that line, uh, down the new home. Here is his driveway underneath the driveway, and they emptied it out 15 feet from the Rogue River without it being in a retention pond. <laugh>. Why? I mean, they did, they, they just bypassed all of the regulations. So, and he goes, oh, here's 21 �something. And geez, I forgot to tell you, I dunno why I didn't write this one down. When I first moved here in, uh, '78, um, it was in March, and I noticed there was these two guys that were dressed in very dirty coveralls, uh, and driving a pickup truck that was all rusted out with a winch on the back, cable winch, and a motor that ran the winch. And they would, between the sewer manhole covers of the old sewer line which runs, you know, back that way. Um, they would send down a fish line and then pull back a, a stainless steel bucket the size of the sewer line on the power winch. They would do this continuously. Every 200 feet is a manhole cover that goes from here to Comstock Park <laugh>. And they would drag the bucket, pick it up, and dump it on the ground right next to the manhole. PG: You can imagine how contaminated that is. Again, I told the EPA, but I did tell million dollar homes across the river here. There's a development called, uh, River Bluff, I think it is. And, um, there's, there's two houses with a manhole cover on their property line, because the sewer line goes underneath that. And I told them, please don't let anybody near that. Don't, don't even touch it. Don't mow it, don't do anything. Just let it grow wild. And they don't, they manicure it and it's lot, a lot of dead <laugh>, but every 200 feet is probably the most contaminated surface in Rockford that you could have that runs right through those million dollar homes and all the way, all the way to Comack Park. Um, the EPA, nothing. DD : So you said you noticed them doing this back when you first moved here? Yes. Is this a practice they're still doing? Or they don't do it anymore? PG: No, they don't do it anymore. Um, they still use the old sewer line like we talked, and it's probably rusted through in so many ways 'cause of the acid that it's just leaking it out and it doesn't have to be dragged anymore <laugh>. So it, it just seeps into the ground. And you can imagine how that's going to affect the aquifer in 30 to 50 years from now. Um, especially. Right you know, right near the Rogue River, we're talking about surface water and we're, we're talking these manhole covers are just on either side of the Rogue River. And that's where they've been dumped. And, you know, every time it rains, a lot of that still finds its way into the river. DD : Oh yeah, for sure. PG: Yeah. I did, I did have a gentleman who lived across the street from me and his dad bought a piece of property and had owned it on the end of Rio Rogue, which was a dead end road, and it's beautiful little site right on the river. And, um, I remember talking to him and I told him, I says, you know, this could be contaminated. That sewer line runs, you know, right alongside your property. I told him what I knew. He sold it in a couple months, got rid of it. He didn't want any part of it. DD : Hmm. I wonder now that the, since the tannery closed, um, how that affects, you know, they're, they're not discharging in the same way that they used to 22 �PG: In Big Rapids they are <laugh>. DD : They have the boot making factory up there, don't they? PG: Yeah. They have asphalt lined retaining pods, retention pods DD : In Big Rapids? PG: Yeah. They have to, they have to pump it out and where they run it to, I don't know. Um, that would be a good story for MLive to look into <laugh> DD : Because, Yeah, go ahead. PG: It probably, they probably dump it somewhere around Big Rapids. So maybe on people's property that is abandoned, maybe probably the same scenario that they did here. They're just doing it up there now. It'd be impractical to haul it and it doesn't evaporate when it gets down to a, a certain level, it just becomes sludge and it doesn't evaporate after that very much. I don't know. Unless they have a lot of retention ponds and as it 'cause it rains, it, it becomes a liquid again. I don't know. Leather. Leatherette. It's a good idea. <laugh> the fake stuff. Actually that is still leather. It's a very thin coat of leather on top of a polyester. leatherette. It looks like leather. DD : Well, Paul, thank you so much for taking the time to share your stories today. PG: Thank you for listening. I think I got 'em all out too. It's that last one I totally forgot about the bucket. That was a good thing. That was when I first moved here, I saw that and thought to myself, why? This is weird. What are they doing, <laugh> DD : Yeah. And just cleaning the pipe PG: Cleaning the pipe. And they're dumping it. Sewage. I mean, if it's just sewage, it's bad enough. But it was from Wolverine and all the heaviest metals you could possibly imagine. Yeah. They didn't go down the pipe. There's not enough fall, not enough, you know, circulating. So they had to scoop 'em up. <laugh>. 23 �DD : That's wild. Well, thank you. PG: No, thank you. Oh gosh. <laugh>. Yes. I'm free <laugh>. 24 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource The Living with PFAS interviews were recorded during 2021 to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a group of chemicals used to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. These products include clothing, furniture, adhesives, food packaging, and heat-resistant non-stick cooking surfaces. They are considered "forever chemicals" in that they do not break down in the environment, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and they build up in fish, wildlife, and in the human body. Studies have shown that exposure to large amounts of PFAS may affect growth and development, reproduction, thyroid function, the immune system, and may injure the liver. More research is needed to assess the full health effects of exposure to PFAS. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0042 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Golembiewski, Paul Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-11-06 Title A name given to the resource Paul Golembiewski, 2025 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Rockford resident and horticulturist Paul Golembiewski reflects on decades of living and working near the former Wolverine Worldwide tannery, sharing detailed observations of chemical dumping, environmental damage, and community health concerns tied to PFAS contamination. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/af091e183b8d79f3b279d2a060f0978e.mp4 59548fabb9c650345ca905e08eed95e3 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f73ad65e14a5a052e7e8993e8ffa7520.pdf a3d497b07f3a092de2d2004b76fe5cdc PDF Text Text Living with PFAS Interviewee: Michael McIntosh Interviewer: Dani DeVasto Date: September 9, 2025 Dani DeVasto (DD) (00:03): Okay. I'm Dani DeVasto, and today, September 9th, 2025. I have the pleasure of chatting with Michael McIntosh. Hi Michael. Michael McIntosh (MM) (00:13): Hi, Dani. DD (00:15): Can you tell me about where you're from and where you currently live? MM (00:19): Yes. Um, I'm, I'm from Michigan. I grew up mainly in Jackson, Michigan, which is south of Lansing. Uh, I've lived out east for a while in Connecticut. Um, and since 1991, my family and I lived here in Rockford, Michigan. DD (00:37): All right. You already anticipated my next question, <laugh>, which is, how long have you lived there? MM (00:43): <laugh>. DD (00:46): Oh, all right. So, Michael, can you tell me a story about your experience with PFAS or with PFAS in your community? MM (00:54): Yeah. I, I, I'll go back to my start, really. And, um, in particular, it was the, uh, Wolverine Worldwide, um, demolishing their tannery. And, um, when they did that, before they did that, they said there's no known contamination on the site. Um, but from when it started, we had a group of neighbors who kept track of it. Um, we had, uh, I had set up kind of a walking routine so that various times of the day someone would walk and take pictures if needed, um, particularly of, um, dust or, or, uh, you know, contamination in the air, those events. Um, and we, about that time, we started a small nonprofit, um, CCRR, um, concerned Citizens for Responsible Remediation. And it was mainly my wife, Lynn and me, and, um, quite a few neighbors that cared. And, um, we had hired AJ Birkbeck at that time as our environmental lawyer, um, and we were showing up at city council meetings and raising concerns. MM (02:13): The city kind of blew us off. Um, that wasn't our first taste of, of not being taken seriously, but that's what starts this. Um, and we, um, we tried to keep track. We, we asked where the air quality monitors were. Um, we were, we were getting, um, requesting data. We ended up having to FOIA stuff because �the city was making it difficult for us to get information. Um, and it was at that time that I, I took on a few different roles, um, when I was off in the organizer of meetings. Um, and I would often facilitate them. I wouldn't necessarily lead them, um, because we had various people who were involved that needed to speak, um, particularly Lynn, my wife. Um, and then I would follow up with meeting notes and, um, and, uh, things like that. And, uh, I remember one experience when, um, we met we and raised our concerns, and we, um, we shared, we shared it with each other, and we, um, everybody's email was in plain sight. MM (03:31): We, we either shared it with the city, I don't remember, or someone in our group kind of surreptitiously shared it. And then the city manager stole our <laugh>, stole our distribution list, and used it to, um, try to, to, um, dismiss us as, you know, discontented citizens. Um, and that was our first lesson in communications and using, uh, blind carbon copies on our emails, um, that sort of thing. Um, it was a learning curve, things like that. Um, so I was, I was helping keep us on track from, uh, sometimes we were meeting weekly, sometimes we met next door at our neighbor's, uh, porch once a week. Um, and it was a time when, first, first time when the neighborhood really came together on something because we were with the Westerly winds. Um, we were in particular, um, um, you know, subject to any air pollution that was coming our way. MM (04:39): Uh, that was one of, one of the things that's, that's kind of an early thing. Our group got smaller over time. People after the tannery was demolished and things were set and done there. Um, we, um, a lot of people slipped away. Understandably, there wasn't a lot to do. Um, and I'll just fast forward to 2017 when, um, our small group at that point, CCRR, we were probably about, if we were 10 people, that was a lot. And by then, I think, uh, Dr. Rick Ky joined us, um, in 2013. He was persuaded that we were, um, that we were legit. Um, and, um, it was our group that was the whistleblower to the EPA. And it was also at the time that we, um, we were able to persuade Garrett Ellison of M Life that again, that we were legit, that we had a legitimate environmental concern. MM (05:43): And he started writing. Um, and then, um, it, that was when, again, I was doing quite a bit of organizing, quite a bit of communications. Um, <laugh>, I was, let's see, in 2017, what was that, eight years ago, I was 62. And we had millennials in our group. And so one time I said, well, well, who wants to get a, get us on Facebook so we can communicate that way? And I was so shocked that nobody, particularly the millennials, nobody, nobody stepped up. And I, I'm not shy about asking people and, and by name and saying, Hey, would you, would you think about it, Nick, what about you? Um, no takers. And I said, okay, I'll do it for eight weeks, and then I'm gonna hand it over to someone. I'll get it going. Well, that eight week deadline came and went. MM (06:42): And so I continued with that. And it's probably not a lot these days, but over the course of, um, probably about six or eight months, we got up to 1100 regional followers. Um, and a lot of them were people who were affected by the contamination at House Street. Um, we were in close communication with them. Um, we were showing up at town hall meetings when, when Wolverine was saying that, you know, that, that we really care about the community, and you want, we want you to be comfortable with your water. Um, it was a lot of BS from their pr, um, and particularly their lawyers. Uh, and that was, that was �particularly a very intense time. Um, I helped organize, one of the things, I reached out, one of the groups I reached out to was Clean Water Action. And I, I don't know if he's still there. I think he is, he may direct the Michigan, Sean McBrady. Um, but we did, um, we arranged a press conference, uh, in the Capitol, and I went, and three people who were affected by the, um, the House Street dumping went. And we, um, you know, we had, we had various, uh, various networks show up. Um, and, uh, we also went to try to talk to a couple of our legislators. We tried to, to find Pete McGregor to talk to him. Unfortunately, he, he was very much for business, and he had been persuaded by the city that we were kind of just a ragtag group that was full of complainers. And so, unfortunately, he never took us seriously or gave us the time of day. Um, and I'm not shy about naming names because we, this was all done in public, so I'm not, I'm not trying to throw anybody under the bus, but I'm just saying at the time, that's how things were going down. MM (08:51): Um, and so, um, it was the, one of, one of the things that I want to share for the sake of, I'm really doing this, not just for the history, but for all the generations younger than me. Um, you know, the millennials, which my kids are involved with, that Gen Z, the alphas, the, the Gen X. Um, because, um, it was incredibly hard work. Um, I was keeping a down a, a full-time job at a corporation. Fortunately for me, I didn't work at a small place because the city manager would often call those small places and complain about their employees. And a good friend of ours lost her job at LGROW because of, she gave up her job because her boss, after talking to the city manager, Michael Young at the time, said, um, well, you can either support this CCRR group or you can, uh, work at LGROW. MM (09:55): And she was bold enough to say, you know what? I don't need this job. She was a key member. That was Janice Tompkins. She was a key member of CCRR. Still is. Um, but it, it's, you know, the, um, the four of us that went to the EPA, not including, I didn't go, but Lynn and Janice Tompkins, AJ Beck and Rick Rediske went, uh, the science did an article on them. And the article title is quite telling, because it's, they persisted because the group persisted for seven years. Um, and now it's 15 years because CCRR still is a going concern. We were really low tech. Um, we didn't have a website, um, there, we didn't publish a lot. We used email and we tried to communicate kind of low key so that we stayed kind of below the radar of things. Um, but it can be hard on relationships, and it was hard on Lynn's and my marriage because we were both in the middle of it, and we were both working hard at it, often into the evening. MM (11:13): Um, and I, I finally got to the point, I think it was towards the end of 2018 when I said, you know, I'm gonna burn out here. I, I need to step back for a little bit. And so I, I, um, reduced my involvement with CCRR. And at that time, I took on something much more life giving. I started on the board at Plain Song Farm, which when you listen to this, whoever listens to this, I hope, Plain Song Farm on 12 Mile in Rockford is still a going concern. Uh, it's a small nonprofit and if, um, a young nonprofit, but I'll just throw that out. 'cause they're, they care about the environment and the, the, um, they care about, very much about the watershed. They're very involved with the community, and they care about PFAS. They had their water tested for PFAS, um, their wells at one point. MM (12:08): Um, so I spent more time with them. Lynn stayed involved. I would show up at CCR meetings and help communicate and make sure people were gonna make it and that sort of thing. Um, so, um, fast forward �to now, my involvement is with the Wolverine Community Advisory Group that's been going, I you may have that date, I think since 2018 or 2019. Um, I just joined in September of 2024 because, um, you know, Lynn and I agreed, we got to the point where we realized that, um, our marriage was the most important thing, and we were putting that ahead of everything else we would privilege our marriage and our relationship. So when I, um, she was ready to go off, um, the CAG, the Wolverine CAG, I was stepping down from Plain Song and I thought, okay, I think it's time for me to step into this. MM (13:11): And, um, I'd like to use my gifts there, encourage people that are still involved. Such, again, Rick Rediske is one of the, uh, he, he's on a three person leadership team member along with Sandy Wynn Stelt, and Tom Konecsni. And, um, I'm on the, I'm one of the ad hoc, not the ad hoc, one of the subcommittees is communication. So I'm back in the game working on communications, and we hope in the next six to 12 months to really, really up our game on communications. And in particular, I mean, we're, we're pretty much an older group. We have some younger people that have joined. Um, uh, professor Dr. Dani McBride from Calvin University has joined. Um, she's a breath of fresh air. Um, we have, um, one of the co-directors, I won't mention her because I don't don't know if she's going to join. She's come to a meeting and, and may join, um, the, when I say young people, anybody under 40, I consider young. Anybody under 45. I'm, I'm 70, the truth told. So anybody younger than me, I feel younger than. And I, I, I have a burden that, um, it's just recently I've been aware of it from my reading, but it's just recently that I've become more aware of the burden that younger people, younger than me feel for the climate change, for things like PFAS for those environmental concerns. And they're not only, perhaps discouraged, but, uh, incredibly disappointed or very despairing. Um, and I just feel for them. And so I hope anything I say could be used as encouragement and encouragement to stick with it, um, because it's worth it. Um, it's amazing the relationships you develop with people who care. And, um, I don't know, people talk enough about affection or love, but you come to have a deep affection or love for the people, for the water systems, for creation. MM (15:30): Um, I say to my tree sometime in the yard that, um, you know, you don't belong to me. I belong to you. Um, and I just know that, that the environment's gonna continue to be a, uh, an issue. So that's why I'm stay involved with what I'm doing. Um, that's frankly, the, the big reason. Well, I really believe in the book that you're writing, and, um, I really believe in the idea of the, of making a public library of all these interviews for future generations. So, and you're way younger than I am, too. So I care about you, <laugh> and your family. Thank you, DD (16:12): <laugh>. Thank you. Would you say that, I mean, it seems like, especially with your work with Plainsong Farms and now with the CAG, and even before that, would you say that like caring about the environment was something that was central to you, one of your concerns always? Or has this kind of MM (16:30): Yeah, the first Earth Day was, was in, uh, was April 22nd, 1970. I was a ninth grader in junior high. We got word before homeroom, a handful of us. We went to the principal's office and said we wanted to join the junior college in their five mile walk from the community, from the junior college to Jackson and picking up trash and so on. And you wouldn't believe it. They said, yes, if our parents approved, I bet that wouldn't happen today. So we called our parents, we got approval, and I don't know if there were �six or eight or 10 of us junior high kids went out. And when you're in ninth grade, uh, you know, freshmen and sophomore and juniors are you, you know, junior college, you're pretty, pretty mature. And you get kind of geeked by that. And that was just a, that was a conversion moment for me. Um, it was that, that school year that, um, the very first environmental biology class was offered at my, uh, at my high school. And I took that. And, uh, even though I became a history major, not a biology or botanist or zoologist or something, um, I've always, I've always had a deep, deep concern for the environment. And my family took us camping. You know, we loved the, the best days were days that you spent outdoors, you know, all the whole day outdoors. And still true for me. DD (18:04): You, um, you mentioned before about using your gifts with the, with the CAG, kind of bringing your gifts back. And I noticed that a couple times it, in your, in your story, it sounds like you got the role of communications. So I'm just curious, what do you consider your gifts are that you're bringing to the cag? MM (18:26): Well, first of all, I, I mean, first I'm thinking back to my college education. I, I majored in, uh, in history and minored in religion and ancient languages. And, um, so I always have a concern for the past. And so whether the past is 10 years ago or 2000 years ago, um, the past influences things. And so it's important to keep that alive. And, um, and I taught, I taught junior high and high school for five years, and then, um, just for a lot of reasons, um, transitioned to corporate it. And I was in that, I was in corporate IT for 37 years. And my favorite work, I, I was a developer. And then at one point I transitioned to a role of project manager. Um, and that's, that's where I re really felt like most of my gifts came alive in terms of, um, team building, bringing people in, helping them feel like what they have to contribute is important because they have something unique to contribute. And as it, it is important. Um, I joke sometimes and say that my core competency is scheduling meetings, <laugh>. So <laugh>, that's the thing I do best. <laugh> MM (19:52): Anything else just comes along with that. So, you know, I, I'm always trying to figure out, well, what works? What's the best time? Let's keep it short if we can. Um, I try to have at least a simple agenda if I'm facilitating. And, um, I just, after 37 years, I was just driven to come up with minutes, you know, to record particularly the decisions that you made and the tasks, because it's easy, particularly with volunteers, you know, volunteers, they're doing it for free and they're doing it for love, and they have a life outside this. And, um, people will commit and then they'll forget. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I get that. I need reminders all the time. Um, I've just become shy and not reminding people, you know, I try to do it graciously, but you know, I'm, I just will say, you know, you were thinking about that, I think, do you, are you thinking about that still? Or whatever. So, um, and it's, and most people are very gracious about it, and they'll say, you know, I don't have the bandwidth now, or, you know, oh yeah, I'll get to that. And then we get stuff done, which everybody feels good about. So, um, I guess that's it in a nutshell. I mm-hmm <affirmative>. I, yeah, I like people. Yeah. I like learning about them. I like to find out what they're about and what, what they enjoy, what makes them tick. It's a, it's a joy. DD (21:21): Yeah. I can definitely see how a group of volunteers has a lot of energy and passion, but also needs to be like, channeled and, and like mm-hmm <affirmative>. Somebody has to be able to help, like, break it down and have tasks and things so that the energy moves forward, �MM (21:37): Right? Yep. Yep. We all need that focus. DD (21:41): We all do. Um, you, I also noticed that you mentioned a couple times when you were talking about how, um, how CCRR was portrayed or described to others. I think, you know, you said like they didn't like the ragtag group and things like that. I was wondering if you, um, if you wanna say anything more about that, or like the perception amongst your neighbors in the city. It sounds like at least from the city, the group was not well perceived. MM (22:13): No, no, it was not. No. Um, yeah. I'll mention one thing that is just a sample. Um, but the city, along with the, um, downtown development authority, which is some of the city, some of the, um, uh, whatever city counselors were on it, as well as volunteers, volunteers, business, they gathered together and they write a, wrote a letter to Blake Kruger, who was CEO at the time of Wolverine. This was maybe 2012. And they wrote a letter, and it was published in the local newspaper, the Rockford Squire. They wrote a letter in which they, um, affirmed their supportive wolverine, thanked them for all that they had done for the community, and threw us under the bus slung mud at us about this small group of disgruntled residents, not citizens, residents, um, who were causing trouble. Um, that was one example. There was a lot of give and take in the Rockford Squire. MM (23:28): Um, I just, you know, I got to the point where, and, and maybe you do, and for a while, you know, you, me, I, I can over care what people think of me. I got to the point where I didn't care, you know, know <laugh>. I didn't care what they thought I was gonna do, what was right. I wasn't gonna think what I saw is right. You know, we've been wrong. I'm not saying that I don't wanna be self-righteous because, um, but they threw us under the bus. We, I tried being a collaborator. I tried multiple times with the city manager, uh, to collaborate, to meet, to meet. And it was kind of like, it was his way or the highway. And we never had it. And there were a couple times when he said he'd do it, and I said, we'll, be glad to meet if you do this. MM (24:18): And he waited and waited and waited and never did. And I pulled the plug on the meeting, and then we, we caught flack for that, that we weren't willing to meet. Um, so it was a lot of game playing and a lot of, um, just, they weren't used to there being another center of authority in the city of Rockford. And there were, there were, I mean, we talked to people that a number of people, even before this time, even before 2010, who'd been hurt by the city's high handedness. Um, it's much better now. I'll just, I'll just say that we've got a new administration in, we've got really good city counselors in. Um, they don't do everything I want 'em to do, but <laugh>, you know, they're politicians and they're good politicians and, um, and they're good people. Um, so I don't want to say a lot has changed since 2010, uh, in the last 15 years, and I'm really grateful for that. DD (25:25): Do you think that change is related to all of the issues with PFAS and Wolverine? Or do you think it's just... �MM (25:34): Um, well, the, um, well the, the big thing probably was in the midst of all this, maybe 2014 or 2015, the city manager died unexpectedly. He was only 48. And then, um, we had the police chief came to power, and that was, that was a disaster. And then the city really looked hard for another city manager. Um, that was one of the big turning points, but a lot of people came forward to care about who the city chose as city manager. So that was, that was part of the turning point. We were, Lynn and I, because of our networks were involved with, um, and a lot of people were involved supporting who we thought were good, good candidates for city council. Um, and so Gail Mansit was a city counselor. She was in CCR, she was a city counselor for one term. Um, so yeah, I think it was a lot of small things. The big thing was that that former city manager leaving, unfortunately, you know, unfortunately left a wife and two high school kids behind. That's, it's always unfortunate. Um, uh, but we got, we got some better, some better people in. DD (27:02): Yeah. MM (27:03): Um, someone, someone once said, <laugh>, I never, you know, I debated at times wanting to run for city council because Oh, someone who really, yeah, yeah, yeah. Someone who, but I would die on the vine. I think <laugh>. Um, but someone, someone who worked in the Whitehall area when they did their cleanup, um, her advice, Lynn talked to her and talked to her for a while, and, and this woman said, I wish I remembered her name. You don't have, you don't wanna get the right city council members on. You want to be the city council <laugh>, so run for city council. DD (27:46): Oh boy. MM (27:46): I don't know that I could have gotten, frankly, I don't know if I would've been voted in, maybe I would today, if I wanted to run 10 years ago, I don't think I would've made it. Lynn. Lynn definitely couldn't have been a city council member. It just, her gifts are so different than what, what a city council member needs to have. DD (28:06): <laugh>. MM (28:08): You can appreciate that. DD (28:10): <laugh>. Um, I've, I, one small question is CCRR, would you consider that group still active today? MM (28:22): Um, truth be told, we, um, we haven't done too much about it, but anytime Rick Rediske is on the Wolverine CAG, Gail Menowitz is on the Wolverine CAG, I'm on the Wolverine CAG. Typically, we go �down around briefly every month and introduce ourselves, and each of us will say, and I am a member of CCRR, so if we needed to get together and get more serious on another issue, you know, we would do that, we would do that. So we haven't said, we haven't, we haven't said, shuttered it and said, well, this is, you know, we're still there. We're under the radar. It's a great place to be. DD (29:12): You're reminding me of like superheroes and like, they, they go back to their regular lives for a little bit until they get a call <laugh>. MM (29:21): Sure. Well, my super, my superpower is scheduling meetings I've already talked about. Mr. Calendar comes to the rescue <laugh>. DD (29:34): Um, now that you're getting, I, I mean, I, I think it's really, um, admirable that you recognized that you were going to be burning out and so that you stepped away. I think that's something that could be really difficult to do. Um, and it's certainly something that we hear people talking about more just in general, like more awareness these days of burning out and Yes. Um, and, and how to manage it. I guess I'm curious, now that you're back kind of in the game on the CAG, um, what are your, like <laugh>, what are your, are you, are you concerned about burnout again? Are you, like, do you have strategies in place for managing that? Because I think, you know, even anyone who's interested in this kind of work advocacy, volunteer work, like those are important things to think about. MM (30:25): Yep. Yeah. One thing I'd say, there's a book out that, um, I haven't read, but I don't need to because I know what the title is and it's rest is resistance. Rest is resistance that says it all to me. I don't need to read her book. You know, maybe if she wrote an article 20 years ago, I could read that and that would be enough <laugh>, but it is really important, um, because no, it doesn't, nobody a favor. If you burn out because you get cynical, you can, you can affect other people. It's not good for your own health, obviously. Um, so, you know, I stay physically active. That's important. Again, I, I love to be outside. I love to garden. Uh, I love to bicycle in the winter. I love to bi, you know, cross country ski or snowshoe, things like that are important. Keeping up with friends. MM (31:20): Um, my involvement with, uh, my local church really is a good thing. I'm trying to get them to care more about the environment. Um, that's, that's a little bit of a, of a lift, but I think there's some people who are listening, some people younger than me that are listening, which is great. Um, but yeah. And, and Lynn and I remind ourselves that we, you know, she is, she is writing a book that she's away for a few days to work on a book as far as her story about PFAS. And some of the stories will be funny because she had some really funny experiences, and some of them will be more sober or serious. And she said, you know, I'm trying to, to weigh that. I don't know if I don't know how I'm feeling about doing this, particularly some of the darker stuff. MM (32:12): And I said to her, you know, I don't know if I'm ready for you to do it either. Hmm. So it kind of came back and that we left it there for now. We just, we know we need to have that conversation. Um, we �wrapped it, we put a wrap on it by saying the same thing I've shared. She'd be doing it for future generations or current generations to, to hear the story. Um, so in that sense, I'm absolutely behind her. Um, some of the stuff it may bring up. Yeah. I'm not looking forward to waiting through back some of that, you know, kind of having it in the house, but mm-hmm <affirmative>. We'll figure it out. We're a lot different than we were 15 years ago, and we have, we're more quickly honest with each other. And, you know, so there's good things that come out of this sort of thing. The hard things can, can produce good characteristics. Um, it's, you know, it's hard on our relationship and it's been good for our relationship. So, um, yeah, it's a mixed blessing, like so many things. DD (33:22): Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Yeah. Are there any other impacts that come to mind for you after tangling with PFAS and the tannery and all that? Any other ways that you see that change impacting your life now? MM (33:37): Um, well, yeah, I think I spoke about that at the beginning. The burden that I feel. Um, because I, I think that PFAS is the tip of the iceberg. Um, we don't have the sort of regulations for development of chemicals that we need. Um, there needs, those need to be what we've got, need to be dumped and just start restarted from the ground up because it doesn't, the, the regulations, we have to not protect the public health. Um, that's true at the state level. That's true at the federal level. Um, I have great concerns regarding the Trump administration and, um, them trying to kill off science and, um, um, dismembered the, the EPA as well as, uh, you know, the, um, the NIH, the National Institution of Health. You know, once, once you've been in this stuff and seen the consequence in people's lives, we know people who, who's been affected, whose lives have been affected by the well water that they drank, that's been contaminated. MM (35:00): It's, it's something that, that they live with. It's in their blood system. It doesn't go away. Um, who knows what all the health impacts are gonna be as the ears go on or the decades go on. Um, so you know that there's gonna be more of that. And we need people that are, can get involved in a good way with the politics. Um, you know, I know there's a story that we know about of the, the English, um, reformer for slavery, William Wilberforce, and he, he fought in parliament for 30, 30 years before the slave trade was banned. And then another 30 years before slavery was banned in the British Empire. He was at it for 60 years. You know, and he's not that, that's just one great story I know of. Um, we need people who are willing, who, you know, we need people who go beyond passion. MM (36:01): Um, because passion won't carry you, passion burns out. Um, one of my favorite novelists is Marilyn Robinson. And, um, I had the pleasure of attending a lecture that she had at a local university, and someone asked a great question, how do you, how do you decide what to write about? And she didn't use the word passion. She said, I consider the things that I think are interesting and important, and to me to think about what's interesting and important, what's interesting speaks to our gifts, you know, where we think we, we can have something and something that's important grounds us in a way that keeps us focused and coming back and important not in the way, not something that's important just for the next week, but maybe important for the next 10 years. Um, so that answer is one of the things that guides me and helps, keeps me grounded. �MM (37:08): What is interesting and important. And I think what the work of the, the Wolverine CAG is doing, trying to hold Wolverine to the, um, the descent consent decree holding their feet to the fire there. And I hope someday to be in a point of collaboration with them. That's my hope and desire that we can work as partners. Um, but it's important, it's really important because guess what, I believe there are other places they dumped that they are not telling us about, and they're in North Kent County, and those will come out someday. And there are other places in the river where the, um, you know, where the groundwater is hitting the Rogue and polluting, and it's going into the Rogue and going into the, um, the Grand River and going into Lake Michigan, and then all the way down to the Atlantic. Um, and that's just, that's in my, in the harder days, that's just incredibly disheartening because we're, we're concerned particularly about human health. One of the things I think is interesting, but I haven't done much about is what are we doing to the more than human creatures? You know, we study fish for, to make fish advisories for humans who fish and eat the fish. I'm not sure how much we're studying the impact of PFAS on the fish or on the other, you know, the grizzly bear that eat the salmon or whatever DD (38:44): Mm-hmm <affirmative>. MM (38:46): So, yeah. Did an that answer your question? I forgot your question, <laugh>. DD (38:51): That's okay. I think you sort of started answering my next question, which is, well, you kind of did both, so yay for you, <laugh>. But the next question was kind of about what concerns you have about PFAS contamination moving forward. So I think you sort of mentioned a couple things in your, in your response, but I don't know if you have other thoughts. MM (39:14): Yeah. Could we just pause for one moment? DD (39:18): Absolutely. [RECORDING PAUSED] So, do you have any concerns about PFAS contamination moving forward? I know you sort of touched on a little bit of that just before. MM (39:29): Yeah, yeah. I don't think we found all the sources. Um, as I mentioned, certainly in Northern Kent County, I don't think, um, for a while Michigan was the head of the game ahead of the game, you know, in a, in a dark way in knowing PFAS contamination. Um, then other states and, and early on after 2017, there were internationally people were coming to, um, talk with us about, uh, our experience with it because it's a worldwide problem. Um, I think, uh, I want to go back to, um, that we want to elect good officials, and we need, we need scientists as well as other citizens to care enough to work with, uh, to, to build some sort of groundswell or legislation for better requirements for companies that are, um, that are creating new things that, um, it's really hard to know how it's gonna affect people and, uh, all the other creatures that are on this beautiful broken planet. Um, I, it, my concern for regulations, I haven't �done much about it, I'll be honest at this point, but it was, um, I can't remember her last name, epidemiologist at MSU, Dr. Courtney DD (40:59): Carigan. MM (40:59): Carigan, okay. Yeah. You know, she, who, who just opened my eyes to that, that, that whole issue. Um, so, and the other thing is, is, um, we as a culture need to be willing to pay more for product that's been tested because companies should clean up as they go. It shouldn't be the, the cleanup we're paying anyway with our tax dollars for cleanups. And so how much better to address those things upfront to be really forward thinking, um, to think past the quarterly, um, the quarterly, uh, what do I wanna say, report or the annual report for a company, um, and think about really what, what are we making? Can we go more slowly? Um, that's a hard thing. We're a very competitive society. The world's very competitive. People are pressed to get things first to market and that sort of thing. And sometimes that is very harmful to the world, and it's not right. It's just not right. Um, I guess that's pretty idealistic. I understand. Um, but the more we can get people to care, um, about these things, we'll be in a better place. DD (42:40): Yeah. Is regulatory advocacy part of the CAG's purview or not? MM (42:48): You know, thank you. I will ask that question at the next meeting. Okay. I do not know. Great question. Yeah. I'll let you know what I find out. DD (43:00): Okay. That sounds good. Um, before we wrap up today, is there anything else that you want to add that we haven't touched on or anything you wanna go back to, to say more about? MM (43:14): I just wanna thank you for doing this, Dani. You're providing such a great service, um, to our region and to the world. Um, and I, I hope and pray that it will be helpful for people. So thank you. You're a great listener. You asked really good questions. Um, if you don't have any other questions, I think I'm good now. Maybe, maybe like we talked about before we got on, I'll think of 20 other things after we, we, uh, close this off. But I think what I've said is enough. DD (43:46): Thank you, Michael. MM (43:48): Thank you. Take care. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource The Living with PFAS interviews were recorded during 2021 to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a group of chemicals used to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. These products include clothing, furniture, adhesives, food packaging, and heat-resistant non-stick cooking surfaces. They are considered "forever chemicals" in that they do not break down in the environment, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and they build up in fish, wildlife, and in the human body. Studies have shown that exposure to large amounts of PFAS may affect growth and development, reproduction, thyroid function, the immune system, and may injure the liver. More research is needed to assess the full health effects of exposure to PFAS. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0041 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McIntosh, Michael Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-09-09 Title A name given to the resource Michael McIntosh, 2025 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Michael McIntosh shares his experiences organizing community action around PFAS contamination in Rockford, Michigan, from grassroots advocacy to ongoing work with the Wolverine Community Advisory Group. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/516290f44ebb80dfc21b6a29c5948cc1.mp4 baf485936f0c641671916bc95b304ebc https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/90ad3f6ba6322588ccf7e474ef16ac32.pdf 92e5b6335948f8e007e8192f2702e78d PDF Text Text Living with PFAS Interviewee: Robert Delaney Interviewer: Dani DeVasto Date: August 1, 2025 Dani DeVasto (DD): All right, so I'm Dani DeVasto, and today, August 1st, 2025, I have the pleasure of chatting with Robert Delaney. Bob, can you, just to get us started, tell me a little bit about where you're from and where you currently live. Robert Delaney (RD) (00:00:39): Okay. I'm essentially from Michigan. My family moved quite a few times, but we were always within the state of Michigan. Most of my relatives were in the upper part of the lower Peninsula. Right now, we're living outside of outside of Lansing in a small village, small town called Potterville. DD (00:00:59): Alright. Thank you. How long have you been in the Lansing area? RD (00:01:06): Since 1979, I think. On and off we, we were a few years in France and a few years in, or one year in Colorado. Otherwise Michigan. DD (00:01:18): Okay. Bob, can you tell me a story about your experience with PFAS or PFAS in your community? RD (00:01:26): Sure. the PFAS my discovery of PFAS and what was happening in the state of Michigan and worldwide dramatically changed my career direction and my personal life really in many ways. And what happened was I was a project manager of the state's oversight of the US Air Force cleanup at the former Wurtsmith Air Force base that's up in Oscoda, Michigan. And it was a SAC base. In other words, it had the bombers that carried the nuclear weapons that were, well, the strategic bombers to protect us from nuclear war. They were a deterrent. Anyway, that that base closed in, I think it was 93, well, 95 might have been official year. And it was therefore part of the cleanup program for these major sites, it happened to be a Superfund site, EPA biggest site's most difficult ones that states weren't able to deal with on their own. And so I worked through a program where the Air Force paid for my services to help them follow our state laws as they cleaned up the project. And so during that time I oversaw the different technical consultants and all the, the grant work and all that. And, and handled the negotiations with the Air Force on this cleanup, well we were at the point where we had conquered, the Air Force had cleaned up, or we had a remedy in place for all what we consider the traditional contaminants, the chlorinated from the metals and oils and gasoline, that kind of stuff. We had, we've gone through virtually every site got have remedy in place. And I was starting to think about I need another, something else to work on. And I was praying in church one day and I said, God, I'd like to do something where I, I've never really used my intellect. This has been too easy. And and so I just, before I retired, I'd like to do something that really challenged me. Well, little did I know that within a month I would be down and at a conference and I would learn about PFAS chemicals, the firefighting foams the Air Force had well, the DOD had a, a session where they came in and told us about chemicals that were on the horizon of as potential problems. And it just so happened that while I was at that conference, my consultant calls me from Wurtsmith Air Force Base, and he says to me, we have this soil at at fire training area where we had been arguing with the Air �Force for years about the cleanup there. And they finally agreed to do what we told 'em they needed to do. And he calls and he says, Hey, they dug down in here 'cause they were installing the remedy. And he says There's a black soil horizon two foot down here. And that nobody told us, nobody knew anything about it. So that would change the potential for the effectiveness of the re remedy as is. And I said, okay, well grab three samples of this soil and send them to a lab and see if you can and analyze 'em for absolutely everything. 'cause We didn't know what they poured out there. And I said, and while you're at it, see if you can find a lab that can analyze for PFOA and PFOS. And so he said, so he found one in California and we sent it out to them. And it comes back with loaded with PFOS and PFOA, especially PFOS. 'cause It's a, it was a firefighting foam. And and I was surprised because they're essentially soaps, that's what they're used a lot as a soap. So I'm thinking they're, they should be all swept away outta that soil. And I won't get into the technical reason why they weren't, but they weren't all, there was a lot of 'em in that, those soil. So, so I said, well sample the groundwater. And then and then from this training I had gotten, I realized that there were all kinds of potential sources across the base. And so we started sampling across the base, all the surface waters soils. And every, absolutely every single sample came back with PFAS in it. Every one. I had never seen anything like it. And this is like four or five square miles of, of area that we're sampling and we're finding it everywhere. And we finally found one well, that didn't have any PFAS in it. DD (00:06:36): And did you decide to sample or test for it because of the conference? Or had you already started hearing about it before that conference? RD (00:06:43): I, I went back through my records and I had one message in 2008, two years earlier from a toxicologist that said you guys might think about PFOS or PFOA, you know this is something on the horizon. That was one of our lead toxicologists, but it wasn't on any of the stuff we worked on or knew and had no idea what it was. And at that point in time, there wasn't much literature even on it. And so I was shocked to find that we had, and I think we even mentioned it to the Air Force at the time, but I, it was just such a random thing. I totally slipped my mind. So it was because of that conference and just the uniqueness of the, the situation that we sampled for it. DD (00:07:26): And was it hard to find a lab at that time to test for it? Or was that not, RD (00:07:30): Well, I don't know. 'cause My tech, my my consultant does all the hard work. I just do the, you do this, you do that, and then he goes, do the hard, the hard work. DD (00:07:40): I see. Okay. RD (00:07:41): But yeah, it was, it was actually difficult because like, we went out the next year and sampled fish, and the only place that would analyze fish flesh was in Canada. So we had the whole cross border thing, and we had to figure out how to send a sample up there and stuff like that. So yeah. People weren't doing it. It was unusual. 'cause You know, there was no regulatory reason to sample for it. DD (00:08:06): Sure. So you started sampling and looking for it and finding it everywhere, except where you said one well, �RD (00:08:14): One, well, eventually we would find some other wells, you know? Yeah. That's just forest upgradient of the, of the Wurtsmith. So there, forest doesn't produce any PFAS. So it was yeah, it all came from, so it started at the base boundary, basically. DD (00:08:32): And what then? RD (00:08:34): Well this, the thing that really changed the direction was that my I went, I didn't know. I knew that these chemicals by this point were indestructible, essentially indestructible. And they also were ubiquitous. And so I went to our, went to the toxicologist in our department, the one that usually worked with me and asked him, can you come up with some criteria? Because that's how we operate. Something needs to have a criteria or some reason for you to try and regulate it. So he did a back of the envelope calculation, and he came up with a hundred parts per trillion as the cleanup, potential cleanup standard for PFOA and 60 parts per trillion for PFOS. Now, those words, those numbers, those words don't mean anything to anybody. But to me, in my line of work, if a contaminant was around a part per billion, which is a, an order of magni-, I don't wanna get into that too technical. But anyway, that's a lot, maybe a hundred times or a thousand times what we were eventually looking at for PFOS and PFOA as far as the criteria. So like, it's a thousand times maybe, or a hundred times higher. If I saw a chemical that was that bad, I thought, this is a really bad chemical. It's really dangerous. Then you back down into the parts per trillion. Well, there's only a few things that we worry about, you know, dioxins and mercury that we look at at that level. So here's a chemical that is on the level of a dioxin or mercury in people's systems. So that was pretty shocking. And then the kind of the weirdest other coincidence, there's a lot of weird coincidences. My son, we'd been told that they thought he was on the spectrum having Asperger's, and because of some of his and now he's, if he is, he's super high functioning. So, and I'm waiting until he becomes a billionaire, but he hasn't yet <laugh> Anyway. He so we my wife, you know, she's concerned and she knows that I want technical information. I do not want what some talking head says or whatever. I wanna understand something at a more base level. And so I started researching autism and what, how the brain worked and, and a lot of the things that go on, and it came to the realization that it was rising. And it's been rising since. Well, we know since 2000. So it's the last 25 years, it's gone up every year, the rate, and as I read about where autism was showing up, that, you know, I started realizing, okay, it's showing up in various areas in various subpopulations of the country at the same time, because my consultant had come to me and said, or my toxicologist had said, this contaminant is like super, super dangerous. And I said, okay, I've gotta go back to the military. We all think that we're almost done cleaning up Wurtsmith. Tens of millions of dollars have been spent, you know, 20 years or more have been spent on cleaning this place up. And I'm gonna have to go back and tell them that this is, we're just starting all over from scratch. So I didn't want to go to them. And <laugh>, I, I always joke, I always saw toxicologists as witch doctors. You know, when you want a criteria, they take some bones in the back room, throw 'em out on the floor, come up with a number and come out and tell you what that number is. And I'm a geologist, so I just follow whatever the toxicologist says. I had faith that they knew what they were doing. I'm just joking about the <laugh>, about them being witch doctors. But anyway, I decided, I want to know for sure if I, this is a dangerous chemical. Is this dangerous enough to go try and fight the Air Force? 'cause You, you know, you fight the Air Force, it's not a fair fight. So you had take it on with some, some intelligence. So I started doing a research on the toxicology of of PFOS and PFOA and the epidemiology. Where, where did it show up? What populations had higher concentrations? So as I'm reading these two sets of things, they're mirroring up. Like, autism was higher �in Minnesota. Well, who had the first widespread known PFOS contamination? It was Minnesota. And it's more common among rich people. Well, who gets new cars and new stuff, and it comes off electronics and stuff. Well, your carpets where they're covered in PFOS, your cookware, your fancy clothing, your floss, it's, and so the things that wealthy people did expose them more to PFOS than what the regular people did, you know? You go to Goodwill, that stuff's been washed outta that clothing by that time. You get it. And we don't change your carpeting probably as much. So anyway, then like, autism was higher among the military. Well, I already knew the military was drinking this stuff all over the place. Autism is higher in, along expressways within 300 feet of an expressway, or I think, no, 300 yards. I don't remember exactly. But if you look at where, where contamination non-point source contamination is, it's a lot of times along major freeways and stuff like that, because it's in diesel. There’s five systems in a, in a, in a diesel truck that de-gas. And, a lot of those fluids have PFOS in 'em. PFAS. So anyway, I'm getting, down rabbit holes. But, so anyway, I started thinking, well, maybe this is why autism's going up, because the use of this stuff has been going up dramatically through all this time. So I, I, there's, there's research being done on that now, but you know how it, is cause and effect, very hard to prove. So anyway, I just, for me, when I thought, oh my gosh. And I had, I was bouncing this off another one of our geniuses at the state, and I'm not kidding, he's a genius. And we were thinking, well, yeah, it's seemingly like this is the case. So anyway, I felt like literally I felt like I was standing at the edge of the abyss looking in that we were poisoning ourselves. And the more you read about diseases on the rise, the more you realize we're poisoning ourselves. And so to make a very long story short, <laugh>, I haven't made it short. But anyway that changed the, my motivation level to where I became super motivated that I had to do something about it. And it was not just deal with Air Force, but this was a, a reality that was way bigger than just the Air Force. And the Air Force and DOD actually proved to be a catalyst for people becoming aware of PFAS and, and the dangers. So it was really strategic. I was strategically placed because I was negotiating with the upper management of DOD on their environmental issues. And they were in a position to actually make a difference with our understanding of it and, and doing something about it. DD (00:16:59): Can you say more about how you, through DOD, were able to be a catalyst? RD (00:17:07): Sure. DD (00:17:07): From what you could see? RD (00:17:08): Okay. Well so, so many backstories. So anyway, I advised my management of, of this, at the end of 2010. I did a big slideshow, brought the toxicologists in and, and leaders of our division. And we went through all this. And then when this, and, and those were old time environmental leaders that were in that meeting, and they knew exactly what to do. 'cause They had already done the dioxins and the mercury and the variety of lead. And, and so they'd already gone through all this. And they recognized instantly the challenge that was there before us and what needed to be done. And so they set up immediate work group to work on on the toxicity and what we should be doing about these things. And we had some ideas. They were gonna test all the waters each year. The state tests a certain number of, of streams. So we were gonna do all this. And, and so there was, we, we started up gung-ho and then the Snyder administration came in and they stopped what the division and the department was doing. And and, and what they told what, I came back through the, through the grapevine. 'cause We asked our, our chairman chairperson of the group, why aren't we doing anything? Why aren't all these things we were supposed to do, we're not doing? And they said, well, the Snyder �administration had told our management is that if our management, DEQ's management, had made one more problem for business that we would be put outta business. And so obviously PFAS is a huge, huge problem for business. And not necessarily always because of their own fault. I mean, they didn't know, most of 'em didn't know. A few knew. So, so that kind of killed what was going on with the state, you know? Not until Rockford broke. Did, did anything happen with regard to PFOS, PFAS. But I was on these national committees working with the Department of Defense with EPA and with all the other states. And there I had carte blanche. My, I think my intermediate management said, yeah, you can go to any conference you want. You can speak to anything. They didn't say this to me personally, but every time I asked for, can I go do this, can I do that? They said, yeah. And so I went out and I would just tell the story of Wurtsmith, you know, and what was happening there. I didn't get into the toxicology or what I thought, you know, how bad it was or anything that, but and I, I talked to, well, in 2012, it was in Salt Lake City. RD (00:20:03): I told, told the defense department, they asked me to talk about contracting. And I said, well, you got a problem with your contracting. Because they were going to a method where you pay somebody to clean up a whole site and whatever was on that site, they were gonna clean it up. And they had to give you a price up front. The contractors had to say, alright, this is how much we're gonna do to clean this up. I said, you, you, yeah, you, there's a couple of problems with that. But anyway, they're gonna clean this up, but they don't know about PFAS or PFOS. And when the regulators come and say, Hey, you've got a problem, then there's no way they're going to have accounted for that in their costs. There's no way. 'cause It's about impossible to get rid of. It's terribly costly. So I said, so this is the demon in the closet, PFOS, PFAS, it's going to screw up your relationships, your, your contracting. RD (00:20:59): And it was from that point forward that I, I just started building, you know, building coalitions or you know, network of people that we were all concerned about it. And we, I, I you know, did issue papers for ASTSWMO, Association of State Waste and Manage Waste Management Operators. So it's a state organization that works with all the different states. That's where I was on the committees. Well, one of the places I was on the National committees was them. And so I would just go and I would just tell the story and you know, and find labs that I could work with and just people all over. And I got relationships with the media so I could feed the, you know, like InsideEPA from Washington would call me all the time to ask me what was going on with PFAS, PFOA. And so I was able to influence the nation and then within EGLE, or now called EGLE. But it was the Department of Environmental Quality at the time within that group, you know, all those peons, we all really cared about the people and the environment. And so, you know, word got out amongst us. And so when the Rockford thing broke, there were people that were already, were already knowledgeable about what was going on. DD (00:22:23): So you had initially been worried that bringing that information to the DOD about, Hey, we just finished cleaning up, but I just found this new thing that you need to think about. You were concerned. But it sounds like they, they kind of went with it, or No? How did they receive that information? RD (00:22:48): Well, it's the federal government. So <laugh>, what up here starts out as a shout, do this. And what actually gets at the bottom is two different things. Like they, the people at the bottom have no idea what's going on. You know, what the management really wants. And the people at the bottom can be shouting, and it gets muffled by the time it gets to the top. So, so there was this weird, I, because I was in acting at both levels, I could see the dynamic. So the person that was in charge of, at Wurtsmith, �he was anti-environmental. Anything environmental was bad in his worldview. And so they would do, they were doing nothing. And I knew they would do nothing. But what happened was we we went out and sampled the fish, like I mentioned, well, we sampled them in the AuSable River. And when we sampled in the AuSable River, the day that the data came back from the labs, this Canadian, this Canadian lab, the health department made an or, an order do not eat the fish in the AuSable River. Okay. So that had political resonance. Yeah. Is that right? All the way up to Washington. Suddenly Washington had a big PR crisis on their hands. And so they brought in outside people to deal with the situation and stuff. And so there was actually immediate action to control the contamination off that fire training area. And they built really the first DOD treatment system for PFOS or PFAS, anywhere that they had. and so, it was, so it just then, you know, just more and more information coming out, more of the waters are impacted people's drinking water's impacted, the on base water system was impacted. Uh, they, it became a political thing for both our state, you know, the governor's office and for DOD. And so that's why there was movement down at the bottom. There would never have been movement based, you know, from the, the local, local group. And so that's what I meant when it came to negotiating with those people. They, they, they are a law unto themselves at times when it comes to, what the president say. Well, I didn't hear it. You know? And, and so there's a kind of a weird dynamic, politically with the DOD. DD (00:25:43): Sure. And then you said too, that at that time, under Governor Snyder's administration, the state was also not pursuing... RD (00:25:55): Well, let's see...Well Snyder didn't come along until, well, he came along around. Yeah, that's true. He we were working on it. And, and Snyder administration, you know, they weren't stopping us from like we couldn't create criteria, or we couldn't, you know, start enforcing against anybody else. But they didn't care what we did to DOD essentially. So we were out pushing DOD, and and they were under Superfund. So Superfund doesn't necessarily need our criteria. Fortunately we didn't get surface water criteria long before we got a drinking water criteria. So we were, we were pushing that at 'em. 'cause They had a surface water, Because the treatment plants, they could regulate them under a different set of laws than what we were operating. Anyway, it was all lots of maneuvering. It was like I had a, when I wanted an intellectual challenge, that was it. I mean, they had to understand law toxicology, epidemiology to be able to talk to all these people. So, DD (00:27:04): Yeah. Can you tell me about the Delaney paper? I heard you wrote a paper. RD (00:27:12): Yeah. Myself and Richard DeGrandchamp professor out at Colorado University of Colorado. And that has another crazy backstory. But I, my, so I knew that PFOS what PFAS was a problem. 'cause My toxicologist had given me those criteria, and I'd started doing my own research. Okay. But my, my toxicologist was swamped. They were re-writing criteria and doing all kinds of things, and he just said, I, I can't support you. And the weirdest thing happened, another weird coincidence, but one day, one of the unit chiefs from the Superfund section comes over to me with a thing that had come across the fax machine. Somebody had done one of those, grab a fax numbers from all governmental offices and fax out an advertisement. And what it was, was a this toxicologist Richard DeGrandchamp was advertising, and they did, he did epidemiological and toxicological not studies, but research and what he did a lot was going, going to court as expert witnesses. So anyway, this, he was doing it on PCBs, and I think dioxins those two things. And she, so she brings it over to me, this unit chief, and says, well, you know, you might, you might be interested in this. And and so I say, oh, yeah, it sounds like it might be something interesting. Maybe this person can do some work �on PFAS. So I told my contractor, contact this contractor and subcontract him so we can, we can get to his expertise. And so we got him, and I remember meeting him at the airport, and he was just a, he was a classic professor type, corduroy coat, hat. And it was just all, it was just classic Indiana Jones. I kind of, all I thought of at the time. So he shows up and brilliant, brilliant man. And I have funny stories about him, if you ever want to hear any <laugh>. But he's a, he's a brilliant man and conscientious. And so I told him we, I got this problem. I got this PFAS stuff in the groundwater and the soils up at Wurtsmith. And I don't know if it's really dangerous or not. I didn't tell him that. I suspected it was super dangerous, that I had been doing the research. And and very much convinced that this was a, a very, very dangerous chemical. So I just say, will you go out, do the research, come back and advise me on what we should be doing about this? So he comes back to me and he tells me that this is really, really bad stuff. And he said, the studies in, West Virginia, Ohio area are, the gold standard for studies. You can't do a better study than this. And they say that this stuff is really dangerous, and, you know, it's almost better stuff than what the cigarette industry or the cigarettes were, you know, is that it was really good, good data and good information. So I say, okay, well, well, anyway, so that gave me direction on how to go with pursuing the, the military. But we had a new director come in. And the new director, it was funny, he, this is under Snyder, so this new director comes in, and he really wasn't, and he wasn't, didn't know much about environment. He was quite honest. He didn't know about, the environment. Uh, this is Dan Wyant. And he said he wanted to meet all of his 3000 employees, I think that was, so he had these meetings where you got to stand up and you had five minutes or something like that to tell him what you thought he should be working on or any, you could tell him anything. And he said, you could even tell him he didn't know what he was doing. So when it came my turn, I think I was the only state employee to do this, but I stood up and said, you don't know what you're doing. And then I launched into PFAS and PFOA See, in 2009 the European Union had already begun to regulate this stuff. And my director had never even heard of it. So this is 2011. My director hasn't heard of this, these chemicals, and yet they're that critical. Maybe it was 2012, I can't remember exactly what the date was. So I say to him, I'm gonna write you a report. And so I got myself and Richard DeGrandchamp wrote the, I think it was 95 pages. There's 96 page report on PFAS and PFOA, talking about the dangers, its distribution, its history. And one chapter, which turned out to be particularly inspired was what, what can the department do to address this? So it was, it was pretty, it was actually pretty funny. 'cause I always thought, well, I heard that. Don't bring a problem to your boss unless you got a solution. So this was a throw in, throw, throw in a chapter. I was just off the top of my head stuff, well, this is what we could do. We do this, we could do this, you know, or we should do. I never said we could. I said, we should do this. You know? And later that would be the kind of outline of what the state did. So it was kind of funny 'cause it was just off the top of my head to try and not, not do a faux pas and bring a problem without a solution. DD (00:33:21): I was impressed by that chapter or that part of the paper when I was reading through it. I was like, oh, they actually offered, like, some steps forward and some like very reasonable things. Like next steps. So I was very impressed when I read that part of it. RD (00:33:38): Yeah. That was the, that was the easiest part to read, write. 'cause I didn't have to really think hard. It just <laugh>. It just flowed. So it was funny. DD (00:33:45): And how, so once you had that paper written, how was it received? RD (00:33:50): Well I mean, it was received well, I, I had I had a good friend that was advising the, the director. And he was on, he was one of the, he and myself and the director had all met together. He, he �myself and another fellow that I have a lot of respect for was there as well. I can't remember his name. But anyway, they they received it well. The director was fairly interested in the autism thing. I hadn't mentioned autism, but he had ridden with my student assistant somewhere. And my student assistant was talking to him about autism and the link. I really didn't wanna talk about that 'cause I was a geologist. And this autism thing is just my, my my thing. I put it out on the web because I wanted to provoke conversation. So so anyway I didn't find out until later, but they distributed about 20 copies to other leaders in the, in the department. So, but that was in 2012. And it got lost after that. DD (00:34:58): Mm. Why do you think? RD (00:35:02): Well, it was, it was huge. And I mean, to me, it was like, to me, it radically changed my whole view of what we'd been doing. I thought that America had been making advances on contaminants that we had stopped putting out, you know, TSCA, RCRA ,all designed to stop us from doing this. And then I realized at that time that those, those were mirages, those were not doing, protecting us, that we were creating new problems. 'cause I thought, oh, we've stopped making new problems, and so suddenly here's a problem that is so huge that it's mind boggling trying to address it. And mostly, like a lot of reasons the DOD went and did some pretty positive things is they didn't realize how big it was and how expensive it was going to be. When it started dawning on them, how incredibly expensive and difficult this was. That's when you finally got push back at the top levels. Before that they were, they're most of the people, what, contrary to everybody's opinion nowadays, are really decent human beings. I mean, they're Americans. They're not like, they're not crazy people. They're Americans. They are honestly decent human beings. And yes, there are some bad ones up there, but wherever there's power or money, there will be bad people. You can't help that. But there were a lot of great people out there, and they wanted, like, one of the things I said in that 2012 meeting was I said, look, you guys have the young people in your ranks, the people that are gonna be having babies. It is critical for you to go out and find out and, and I didn't do it quite this dramatically, but it is critical for you to go out and find out if your people are drinking this water. So they literally went all around the globe and sampled every water supply that they had at their bases. And that becomes key at what happens in Rockford. And, and so if we get to Rockford, I'll tell you how, that became a key thing that made Rockford happen. DD (00:37:17): Can you just clarify one point, you said you put it out on the web, was that the autism information. Like did you have your own like, website or what? RD (00:37:27): The other person that I was working with is I'll just say Mark for right now 'cause I know if he wants his name out there. But Mark had a, a website for his business. And so we quick put it onto his business website, and for awhile it was the number one you put in PFAS and autism, it would be the number one paper that popped up. But, now, I don't know if you'd ever find it again, but still out there I think. DD (00:37:56): Wow. Thanks for that clarification. Okay. So how, so you're, you know, you're, sounds like you're working nationally. You're kind of, you've got kind of that perhaps unofficial carte blanche to do these conferences. Meanwhile, the state at some points is not really embracing this... RD (00:38:18): I gotta say like the health department was, and the surface water people, they were still going out and sampling fish. And they're still sampling the surface waters. So there was work being done at all the Defense department sites. So we're gathering information and there's this little pool of �information that's growing. But yeah, the department itself is, it's you know, we'd rather sweep this one under the rug. DD (00:38:43): So then how did you get connected in, or how did this get connected in with Rockford? RD (00:38:52): Oh, well, that is a, that I, I, like I mentioned in 2012, I had spoken, there was both, it was an Air force and Army conference, environmental conference with a small, um or they called it a summit. And I gave my little spiel and I told them, you guys, you know, you got these young people, you gotta go out and sample your water to make sure they're not drinking this stuff. So they literally, they didn't, they didn't check with me, but they went ahead and did that. And so they're sampling all around the globe. And that's where you, you find that suddenly the military has all these sites. And they were always mad and rightfully so. 'cause Everybody was saying, oh, the military's so horrible. They've contaminated everything. Well, the only difference was they sampled for it, nobody else did. So that, you know, they were really doing a great thing. Opening up the reality that this is super widespread problem. But, you know, they got whacked for, for doing it. But one of the last rounds they did were all these low risk sites. And it so happened that in Rockford there was a a facility that they had purchased, and its only function was to provide a place for the band to practice. Okay. And they never operated anything there. It was and they hadn't bought it that long ago. Well, when they sampled that water, it came back highly contaminated with PFOS, PFAS. And so they started investigating, you know, how is this possible? We know we didn't do this. You know, they reported it to the EGLE, the DEQ, whatever they were called then. And, and it, so that pointed back to, well, they were, they did weird things. The department, the, the people, first of all, the people that were responsible for doing the sampling, they, we don't know why, but they sampled down gradient instead of upgrade, or No, they sample, what did they do? They sampled either cross gradient or something to the groundwater flow. And then they didn't detect anything. And so they were trying to write it off as something, I don't know what, you know, nobody knows the full story of what was going going on with them. But anyway, they got called out eventually. 'cause They sampled, the, I don't know how it got tied back to the, the tannery, but it just, the investigation, I guess eventually got it back to the tannery. And, so it was because of that, because they found this high levels of contamination from a DOD site. And they know they hadn't done it that eventually was found out it was the tannery. And, and the other side note is that there's a friend, Janice, that had called me from, in 2000, I think it was 2011, that's when the emails are from, she called me and was talking to me about, contamination at the tannery. And I told her at the time, the thing that I said, she was worried about heavy metals because in tanning they used heavy metals. But, I said, wait, at the time, I said, well, you should have, you should be checking into PFAS. Because I had lived in Rockford, I knew about the tannery, and I knew they used Scotchgard on, on those shoes. And so, and the water tasted horrible. So <laugh>. Anyway, I told Janice, you guys need to be looking into the PFAS and see if they used Scotchgard and stuff. And so as Janice went through all the, all the files, from the tannery, she found evidence that they were using Scotchgard. And so, they were working from that end of things, from the public, trying to bring EPA in and, and various other things. You probably know Janice's story better than I do now. But, so those, those were the two things that were brought it together, DOD's discovery and, and that that group, fighting to have the place, that cleaned up properly. DD (00:43:32): And you knew that Scotchgard at that point had PFAS in it. RD (00:43:36): Yeah. In fact, in all my slideshows, when I talk about what, what's it in, Scotchgard is mentioned. �DD (00:43:42): Wow. That seems like two really lucky breaks in terms of putting that together. Right? Like these low risk band practice site, and, you know, Janice happens to contact you. Those are really tenuous threads RD (00:44:03): There are and as I've mentioned to you I have had a couple of supernatural experiences in my life. And this in total felt like one string of miracles. I mean, and I know I'm a scientist. Okay. I'm, I'm a I'm a skeptical personality type, and I don't expect anybody to believe it. But to me, the things that happened literally at, when I was sitting with upper management in our work groups at EGLE, and we were discussing, you know, we're gonna go out and sample all the water and all the systems in Michigan, I'm sitting here pinching myself. Like, this is unbelievable. This is like, I can't believe this is like a miracle. I never, I never thought in the world I could get, I would get them to do anything. You know, because the of the business angle, and if it hadn't been for Flint, Flint was also critical to what happened in PFAS because the, the, the governor could no longer look like he was ignoring environmental problems. He just didn't, he didn't, couldn't risk that. And so there was no political way of stopping what was going on. And so yeah, it was just crazy stuff just went on that, you know, when I was looking at that abyss, I was looking at it from the standpoint of there's a horrendous problem out here, and there is no way in the world it's ever gonna get addressed because we're going so far away. Even back then towards in the environment, it was, it was already an obvious thing that we were tired of caring about environmental things that was causing us problems with jobs or whatever. So I was thinking, there is no way we're gonna take on this. Like we took on the dioxins and, and the, and the lead and the mercury. And so to see what happened was, has been just amazing. DD (00:46:07): It sounds like your whole world became, at least work world became RD (00:46:10): Yeah. DD (00:46:11): PFAS RD (00:46:12): Yeah, I was just thinking this morning, my mom was the second one of the second leading experts on PFAS in Michigan. 'cause She would sit and listen to me when I ranted on and on about it. <Laugh> <laugh>. So yeah, it was, it, it became very very dominating in my life. DD (00:46:29): What what if any concerns do you have about PFAS now moving forward? RD (00:46:35): Well that, that anti-environmental spirit that has now gripped our nation, a lot of our nation is PFAS isn't the only environmental problem. We have so many diseases that are arising, not just autism and a lot of the autoimmune diseases, thyroid disease childhood cancers and diabetes. There are so many things hitting us all at once. And so it's not because we're all eating at McDonald's or some fast food place, that's not what's doing it because this is happening in other places around the globe that they don't have the same cultural behaviors that we do, and the same foods. And yet you'll find autism raising in you know, China and, and other places that don't, don't do what we do. And so there has to be an explanation for what's causing these real rates. Not just population trend changes. Like, you know, a lot of us are getting dementia while we're all getting older. The population get older. You expect dementia to increase, but you don't expect childhood cancers leukemia or something like that to increase. They're the same age, you know? So there are environmental things that are impacting us. And I've already, I've already seen rumblings of the Trump administration lowering the standards on, on �PFAS. And I don't, I haven't been able to verify this 'cause they just saw it yesterday. But there's even a move to to allow PFAS contaminated sludges from municipalities to be spread in farmland when they were trying, the Biden administration just apparently passed something that said, you can't put PFAS contaminated sludges on land, on farmland. And, you know, there's a, there's a business reason why, you know, tax and business reason to put that stuff on the land. RD (00:48:55): And that, again, I don't want to use this as a, a pun or whatever, but that's, that trumps protecting people's health right now at, at almost every turn. If it's perceived as bad for business, bad for American economy, real or not real. It is, is under attack. And so I see you know, I <laugh> it's almost suicidal. If people understood they were killing their children and their grandchildren, then I don't think this would be happening. Because like I say, I don't know if we can afford to clean up PFAS and stop it from getting into us, but I do know we cannot afford to poison our children. If you're doing your economic analysis, then what is the price of our children? What's their worth? So to me, it's mind boggling where we're at. So Yeah. I'm concerned. DD (00:50:04): Yeah. Sobering. RD (00:50:06): Yeah. Yep. DD (00:50:09): To say the least. Is there anything that you would want to add that we haven't touched on today or that you would want to go back to and say more about? Anything that's kind of bubbled up since we've been talking? RD (00:50:32): You know, the only thing I thought about is like what you're doing and what one of the things that was remarkable to me about the American system was the power of the media. You know, for all the garbage that the media puts out, they're also totally instrumental in counteracting the lies and the nonsense. If you want to know the truth, it's out there. And a lot of why I didn't get touch into what the media did with regard to helping the story here in Michigan and how they were so instrumental in, in in getting the, getting public awareness out there and making it impossible for the politicians to ignore. They were just so critical. And so it was, it was, it was great to see, you know, we had, we do have some important political and social things that have helped us. And that's what I'm more, almost more afraid of losing in this country now, is that with all the pressures that are going on towards I don't even blame people for being so thoroughly confused about what's true, but, but it is a scary thing. DD (00:51:53): Do you want to say anything more about media and PFAS and if you have any part of that story or...? RD (00:52:02): Well I'll tell you, there was a couple of people and that were critical. Garret Ellison and oh, drawing a blank on his name. This is a sign of old age. Steve Gruber Steve Gruber, he got me onto his show. When I broke the story, I think that's probably something I'd like to tell about is the, how, how Michigan actually became a leader nationally on PFAS and PFOA. And this is another one of those really crazy stories, but in the, in the Flint situation where they had the drinking water problem with the lead, and it was, it was caused by a bad decision to change water sources. There was a state employee that came to management and said, look at if we switch this water source from from Detroit to, or no, from whatever they were using in Flint to the Detroit water system, what's gonna happen is lead is gonna leach into the water. He told him, flat out, it's gonna be in everybody's water. That person was actually indicted by the Attorney General of Michigan, Bill Schuette. 'cause He, he needs to, he needs to hang or �not hang that this needs to be hung on him, that this, you did this. But he went after this this employee that was trying to warn people. And it, it was because his theory, from what I understand, was go after the little people and they will give you the big, big, big fish, which was John or not was Governor Snyder. 'cause He wanted Governor Snyder's job, basically. I guess. So he goes after all these small fry at the state and wrecks careers, hurts their lives, their families, all this because he wants to be governor, not because he wants the truth. So I was driving down the road one day when Rockford had broke. It was out in the news they'd find, they find the contamination all over the place. And I thought to myself, out of the blue, well, who knew about this first? Me. They're gonna go after me. And so I so I called my friend who's an attorney, and I say, Hey, can I meet with you? And we get together and I explain the situation. I explain why I'm concerned that I will be the next victim of this, this political war. And he takes my report home. 'cause I said, look it, I gave this report in 2012 to, to management. And he reads the thing and he comes back and, you know, after he's read it, the guy could read awfully fast, apparently. Anyway. And, you know, he's just really, he's blown away by it. And he, and so, so this is the amazing thing, Steve. This was on Wednesday. It turns out that Steve Gruber on his radio program here in Lansing, a talk radio in the morning. And he was talking on Thursday about what was happening in Rockford. And he's familiar with the Flint situation. And he says, somebody at DEQ had to know that this was out there. That this was a problem. And that's where I found out about the 20 copies that had been spread around. That somebody had read my report that was driving in to work at the state and they heard Gruber say this. And they call in and say, yeah, I saw this report report from this DeGrandchamp guy or whatever. And on Friday morning, Gruber is reading my report on the radio. This is a, I mean, that's how crazy this is. So Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. DD (00:56:17): Are you hearing this on the radio? RD (00:56:19): No, I didn't know anything about this. This is, this is this is just, this is what's so funny. So I, and I don't know how, I don't know how my attorney found out. My attorney found, my attorney turned out to be friends with Gruber. Okay. So another weird connection. But, so my attorney has this contact in the attorney general's office. And so he contacts this Attorney general and says, Hey, I got this guy that knows all about this PFAS stuff, and he's willing to come in and talk to you and give you everything he's got for immunity. So, well, Sunday or Monday, Sunday I think it is, I, we get back an offer from the Attorney General's office. And what they offered me was the deal they offer to mobsters, if you, we will, we will not con not prosecute you if you tell us every bad thing you did and everything, all your information, and if you hold anything back, we can come after you for that. Okay. So there's assumption that I did something wrong or bad in this and that. And so I said, I'm not signing that. So my attorney gets together with some some judges and some other attorneys. We all meet together on Monday evening and the decision is made that I need to get my story out before the attorney general comes after me 'cause then there's a, like gag order on you and whatever. And so that's where it comes out to me that Gruber has been talking about me and <laugh>. And so they set up an interview for Wednesday morning. So this is within a week. Wednesday morning I go on, I take time off from work, get it cleared so I can't get me for moonlighting or whatever. I don't know. Anyway, so I go on radio and we talk for two hours about the report and, and stuff. And you know, other co coworkers or people in the governor's office driving in listening to Gruber, hear my, what I'm saying on, on the radio about Yeah, they knew about it in 2012. And you know, this is the report. And, and so many of the questions you asked that kind of stuff too, was being asked. RD (00:58:37): And so it was really a tremendous relief to me because I felt like I've got all the, I'm so concerned about this stuff and I can't get the communication out. And so from there as one person said, �well, your attorneys made you prosecution proof that nobody can come after you. And but anyways, really, I knew I didn't really want to do it because, you know, it would be perceived as betrayal to the department. And, and so my career got, got whacked. But the nice thing about civil services, they can't fire you for telling the truth. Or they might be able to, but they're not supposed to <laugh>. So I, I knew they could make my my life miserable, but firing me would've been a, was a huge problem. Yeah. So they did make it kind of uncomfortable, but other than that, it wasn't bad. DD (00:59:29): That sounds like a really stressful week-ish. RD (00:59:33): I was under well on the stress belt too. Because you know, I no longer, well, I know I no long, I always felt like I was part of a team. And and that of course had been breaking down because of our division was headed in all the wrong direction. But then it got really bad. So they had one other person supposed to be spying on me, and all this other junk was going on. So it was stressful. But every morning I'd get up and I have my quiet time and I, I survived it all. My doctor gave me some pills to keep my blood pressure down. DD (01:00:15): And then from that point on was, I know you're saying the department was changing and like your role changed and things like that. So then was PFAS less a part of your life and your work? RD (01:00:32): You know what, well, what happened was the Air Force went after me trying to get me fired. And my division chief, she at one point was trying to get me fired. And and what they were doing was micromanaging me and they were making it so I couldn't give my, I give instructions to my my consultants. My consultants wouldn't do anything. And then they put another person that was supposed to be helping me, but rather was the one that was truly being made the project manager. 'cause They couldn't really take me off the site. They couldn't make it look like they were punishing me or anything. So they left me in position, but then took, stripped my abilities to do anything. And wasted my time basically. But I kept working on the outside on, on the issues, so DD (01:01:28): Yeah. Are you still working outside? I know you're retired now, but, RD (01:01:34): Well, I did a lot of volunteer work, but because of family issues I had been pulling away and just too much stress. So I have pulling away from doing much of anything anymore right now. So, but I was doing a lot of consulting on the side for, for free. You know, I was just helping out with the communities and still those kind of things, but I'm pretty tired. DD (01:02:05): You wanted to use your intellect... RD (01:02:08): Yeah. <Laugh> I did. Yeah. DD (01:02:10): Oh my goodness. Okay. I'll ask it again. Is there anything else that you wanna add or go back to before we wrap up? RD (01:02:19): There's a lot of wonderful people out there in the world. A lot of great people. I wish Americans could realize that even the people on the other side are not such bad people. But that's, that's relates to everything, not just PFAS. DD (01:02:35): Well, thank you so much, Bob, for taking the time to share your story with me today. �RD (01:02:40): Oh, it was a pleasure. I haven't thought about it much lately, but it was fun. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource The Living with PFAS interviews were recorded during 2021 to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a group of chemicals used to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. These products include clothing, furniture, adhesives, food packaging, and heat-resistant non-stick cooking surfaces. They are considered "forever chemicals" in that they do not break down in the environment, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and they build up in fish, wildlife, and in the human body. Studies have shown that exposure to large amounts of PFAS may affect growth and development, reproduction, thyroid function, the immune system, and may injure the liver. More research is needed to assess the full health effects of exposure to PFAS. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0040 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Delaney, Robert Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-08-01 Title A name given to the resource Robert Delaney, 2025 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Robert Delaney, a former Michigan Department of Environmental Quality project manager, became one of the first in the state to identify and investigate widespread PFAS contamination. His work at Wurtsmith Air Force Base in Oscoda and later statewide helped bring public, governmental, and national attention to PFAS risks, despite facing political pushback. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b5c54c29d9bd0dde27d330f89d732d07.mp4 9adc279610ce2a47a044b44769a8783e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0ae3455606e94ca69f92985f702e6989.pdf a5c8375ec745f4152b9b1b19aa6e8887 PDF Text Text Living with PFAS Interviewee: Colleen Linn Interviewer: Dani DeVasto Date: April 30, 2025 Dani DeVasto (DD): I'm Dani DeVasto, and today, April 30th, 2025, I have the pleasure of chatting with Colleen Linn. Hi, Colleen. CL: Hey, how's it going? DD: Great. I'm so glad to have you here and talk with you today. CL: Yeah, thanks for having me. DD: Colleen, can you tell me about where you're from and where you currently live? CL: Yeah, I grew up in the Upper Peninsula, Michigan, in the Houghton-Hancock area, so that's in the left thumb of the state, if you will. And I'm currently in the metro Detroit area, southeast Michigan, attending Wayne State University in Detroit. DD: And how long have you been in the metro Detroit area? CL: Since about 2016. That's when I started the master's in anthropology program that year. So I've been in graduate school the entire time I've been in the Detroit area. (0:52) All right. DD (00:58): Colleen, can you tell me a story about your experience with PFAS or with PFAS in your community? CL: (01:01) So I really got into looking at PFAS from the perspective of a researcher. It became a huge topic in Michigan at the same time that I was trying to figure out what to do in my dissertation research specifically. And I was originally interested in drinking water issues. And so when everything started coming out about PFAS, those two very much so overlapped. And it was a topic that the state kind of took in full, especially after the Flint water crisis, which is a place, which is an issue that I also had been doing research on. So it was really curious to me that there's this other drinking water crisis that kind of came out in the state. And at the same time, I was working with some folks at Wayne State, working on an interdisciplinary research project. And one of my colleagues in that capacity was interested in groundwater issues. So we were trying to figure out an interdisciplinary project to work on together that combined all of our expertises between engineering, pharmacology, and anthropology. And groundwater contamination kind of is able to capture a lot of those, all of those together at once. So when I started formulating my dissertation research plan, it seemed kind of like the natural progression. �But since starting it, I've been thinking about it in the context of like other chemical issues. Because once you start talking about PFAS with other researchers, they constantly refer to the other types of chemical issues that they've worked on before too, like PCBs and mercury and VOCs and microplastics, things like that. So as I started my dissertation research, I was kind of approaching PFAS as like a way to think about how we deal with chemical exposure in general, and also how it relates to these other kinds of chemical problems. So I don't know if that's a story specifically, but that's how I got into the dissertation research and what I wanted to do, to do my work on and kind of how I started thinking about it, but yeah. DD: One follow-up question, were you aware then of PFAS before you started your dissertation or much before you started your dissertation research? (3:16) CL: Barely. Yeah. Just barely before I started that. Um, yeah. DD: But just it coming up in the news was kind of how you started learning about it? CL: Yeah. Because I heard the stories from West Michigan specifically that there was, and it was so quickly after Flint, it was like, well, what is this happening all of a sudden? I think it was the idea that, or a strange idea to have so many drinking water crisis in a state, with so much freshwater resources, that really, that issue really does not compute with me, especially having grown up in the Keweenaw next to Lake Superior. So my perception of water is just like everlasting and never ending and always accessible and always there, always present. So the idea that people wouldn't have access to clean water, like it just does not compute. It does not work in my head. DD: And then you moved down to Detroit and you're hearing all these new stories. CL: Yeah. All these different stories. And Flint was such a specific case. And then of course, the Detroit water shutoffs too, which came, which kind of like escalated, was escalating in the early 2010s and had continued up until the pandemic as well. So all these different ways that we were managing water just became clear that, you know, it's not about the presence of water, but how water is managed, you know, from a political standpoint and a social standpoint that really contributes to how people are able to access it and use it and the safety and affordability of that and at that too. DD (04:49) : Yeah. Would you be willing to tell us more about your research? CL: Yeah. So I, what did I do? I traveled to three different sites in Michigan and my goal was to connect with private well users who were impacted by PFAS specifically and talk to them about their kind of household experiences with having, you know, basically a letter from the state saying that they're drinking, their well water is unsafe. You know, how do people �process that and how do people adapt to that? And then I also wanted to connect with those kind of working in the state governance capacity to kind of work on the issue. And that includes local government officials and state government officials. You know, how are they helping households and how are they also like in the community and environmental context to try and fix the issue if there are solutions possible for these different parts of groundwater contamination. And then also the community activism, because that includes folks who weren't directly impacted by a well water, but they were still concerned about this issue in their community broadly. So it works to connect with all those different stakeholders in three different sites across Michigan and conducted interviews, did some door to door canvassing to get kind of like a neighborhood perspective. I did these in Rockford and Grayling and then in Hawley, Michigan, which have very different experiences with PFAS. And that was another part of what I wanted to understand was how the state approaches different pollution scenarios. And so Rockford represented a corporate polluter, Grayling represented a military polluter, and then Hawley represented a kind of an quote unquote orphaned site who didn't have a direct owner. And they had less people directly impacted by the PFAS contamination, but still like this like historical dump site that just hadn't been cleaned up. And so that affected social land orders and land owners in the immediate vicinity, their experiences with their environment. So all this was done for a comparative context to see just like kind of like the energy and the work that it takes for a community to be able to like effectively respond to groundwater contamination, which not only affects drinking water, but like recreational, environmental resources and just the idea of water resources into the future. Because there's always this concern with groundwater that maybe it's not affecting you now, but it's going to affect you soon if, you know, things travel a certain way. It's such a difficult substance to predict and track because everything is underground. And so anthropologists love that kind of stuff. Like, how can we know what we what we can't necessarily physically see? How do we how do we map that? How do we model that? And how do how do kind of different social groups make sense of it when they when they can't know certain things? Because that's where that, you know, our cultural ideas come in is when we the gap between our ability to know and what we what we know. DD: So I know that the research is still sort of in progress and we should all go read your dissertation and anything that gets published from it once that's done. Do you have any, like, initial findings or conclusions that you're drawing from your research that you'd be willing to share with us or lessons learned or? �CL (8:14): Yeah, I think the uncertainty that comes with folks having to deal with this was really prominent throughout everything, but then also just the I think what what I was noticing specifically was just the the complications that it came up with, like health care, like conversations with health care professionals and just the need to focus on health care access in general. When we're talking about not just PFAS, but just all kinds of chemical exposures, it became very difficult to not understand PFAS in relation to other types of of chemical issues. But having that like health care access seemed like a way to kind of address it like the end point instead of focusing on the prevention and exposure, which is which is super important. But since there's like already all these exposures, how are we, you know, how are people able to access those resources? And then also just the necessity of having multiple actors across scales, like in alliance of values to make anything happen. You know, you can have support from the state and you can have support from local officials. But if you don't have that citizen component, things don't go as far as they could. And then also, if you have that citizen component and that state component, but not that local governance component, there's also going to be like a, you know, kind of a break in the road and how things are able to kind of get done. And that's really tricky to do. And that's really dependent on the capacity of municipalities, of water treatment departments and also just cost. You know, there's a lot of stuff, environmental pollution issues that get tied up in legal stuff. And that is dealt with in a very like case by case basis. And hopefully, you know, those cases set precedent for other communities. But it's really hard to have like one community’s success expand to to other areas as well, if that makes sense. So that alliance of values, I think, is a specific one that I'm working on fleshing out at the moment. DD: Wow. CL: Yeah. DD: It's a lot. CL: Yeah. It’s a…yeah. DD: Tell me about any concerns, if any, that you have about PFAS contamination moving forward, either for you personally or like as a researcher thinking about these questions about, you know, how states approach and communicate these kinds of issues? Do you have any concerns about PFAS contamination moving forward? CL (10:55): I do. Alongside kind of the other major global issues, I think my biggest concern is things like this not receiving the attention that it was, you know, a couple of years ago. Changes in administration affect how certain issues are dealt with, including PFAS. So because it's such a big problem, such an expensive problem, I worry about it being �normalized, the exposure being normalized and people not taking it seriously over time because they don't feel that they can escape, you know, not just being exposed to PFAS, but other other types of chemical issues as well. So like VOCs especially. So that's so I think awareness and communication like public health education and just general community awareness is is a big concern of mine. But I think Michigan has been setting a lot of precedent for that. So and then I think it's just the funding thing again, municipal water departments are, you know, without, you know, staff funding expertise in a lot of places to to to retrofit their infrastructures. So it's kind of like we have to go back to, you know, when we first initial initially built our our water infrastructure kind of like system and we're in this place where we need to to update everything that was done, you know, 80 years ago, 100 years ago. And that's a huge task. So but and I, you know, once people know about it, they they want to be able to find the tools to to fix it. But when there's an absence of those resources, you know, I just worry it gets it like slips through the cracks, if you will. I hope that made sense. DD: Yes, I mean, funding is funding is a huge component of addressing this and being able to address it. And when you don't have it or you have other issues, it is easy for something like this to become normalized and fall through the cracks, especially when it's, you know, showing up as being everywhere. CL (13:03): Yeah, yeah. And I think something that should always be said is, you know, how are we using chemicals and, you know, in our society in general? I think that was the hardest thing to really get answers about was just like the manufacturing use of it and kind of like it's used in the corporate corporate industries. So I think transparency there, like, I don't know. That was the one thing like I just don't know how to like I can talk about the governance side of things and like, you know, critique it to, you know, whatever ends. But that there's a lot of like corporate obfuscation, if you will, and just opaqueness and how it's used. And I don't know how to address that. But I have a feeling that's going to continue. And that's where a lot of these exposure possibilities kind of remain. DD: I just had another question that kind of goes back a little bit more to your research. Speaking of, you know, not always remembering the questions right away. You mentioned that, you know, a big part of the research was thinking about (14:05) the process or like trying to better understand people's reactions when they get these kinds (14:10) of water notices and just like that, that process, that reaction, like, like just looking at kind of that whole scenario. Am I understanding that correctly? CL: Yeah. �DD: So I just was curious if you would say more about that. Like, what did you I'm just curious, what did like what did you find? Like, how did how are people responding to that? And how, you know, I don't know anything around like what did you notice about that part of it? CL (14:35): Yeah, I think they were very individualized responses, which kind of tracks against kind of the individualized nature of well water management in the first place. From my my sample size, it wasn't enough to kind of understand like a very specific pattern. But, you know, a lot of people, people who were, you know, they were, you know, they were there were certain people who could be very pragmatic and they could just, you know, call the call the county and get the water filter that they needed to to get to reduce PFAS exposure. And they got it installed and they just never really thought about it again. For others, that process was a lot trickier. And so it became, you know, a question of of procuring enough like bottled water resources in the meantime until they could figure out how to implement that. And for others, they just it was just like another piece of paper on their counter that they never really looked at again or were concerned about, or it was just, you know, the thing on the list of to do on a person's to do list that you just couldn't really like get around, get around to because everyone is is working and overloaded and, you know, in many different capacities. So the range of reactions was kind of surprising because it was very clear that the toxicity issue, like the the the risk of being exposed, I felt like that that part of it wasn't always communicated the most clearly. I think there was a there was a gap in that specifically. And it became more challenging, especially when I met, you know, I met people who were not affected. You know, they had a slight detection in their well. They didn't do anything to their water. A lot of people had like the habit of drinking bottled water anyway, so they weren't necessarily concerned about the water coming out of their faucets. They weren't using that for their personal consumption anyways. But there are some people who are very severely affected to, I think, an unimaginable degree to the folks that, you know, weren't affected in the same capacity. And so it was just it was just so much a lot of up and down, if you will. And so it's like, how do you take the person's experience who, you know, lost a loved one who's dealing with a very serious health effect and then have somebody be so apathetic about it? That was that was difficult to kind of make sense of, but it really was a wide range of experiences. (17:01) And I think it kind of reflects that that individual nature of well water use where you're not always talking to someone else about it because your well is your well. And so somebody else's well is a different context. You know, stories about people who their well water was testing very high price for trillion and their neighbors were not detected. You know, that was there's just such a variance of pattern. That's why I think the original testing that was done in Rockford in 2017, those folks who were who had �contamination very early on had a point of connection because, you know, we didn't necessarily know what to do about it. I think as the kind of response became a little bit more standardized and regulated, those points of connections weren't as prominent because they had that intermediary of the state. And so they were just it became a very one directional transaction instead of understanding what it was like at a community level. And of course, there's, you know, variances of this. But, yeah. DD: Well, it's so interesting to be able to think about it like over time and as because PFAS is kind of still in some ways an unfolding, emerging situation, right? To think about how that response was handled and received in the beginning versus, you know, like, as you said, once the once the kind of state response became more codified, perhaps, or like the process for handling and responding to it. It's so interesting. CL: Yeah. Yeah. There's a huge difference there between 2017 because I talked to a few folks who were (18:44) part of that. But then the newer identification in Rockford area in 2023 was tied back to Wolverine headquarters. And so just much different. Those are the same two neighborhoods of multiple people in those neighborhoods and very different experiences and kind of levels of engagement with it. And more limited options because the lawsuit had already been filed and settled. And so Wolverine's responsibility was, you know, kind of already decided upon. And then another instance kind of came up and they couldn't quite directly prove. And just the ability to not quite directly prove something and not having the reasons for the lawsuit results in a different household experience of this. DD: That's fascinating. Wow. I was just thinking about how many how many variables there are. Right? As you said, the resources, finances, you know, time, people's own knowledge and just…Wow. CL: It’s one chemical. (19:52) And we think like, I think one chemical class, you know, should maybe experiences are more uniform. But no, it's it's it's it's very, varied DD: Yeah. Wow. Before we wrap up today, do you is there anything else that you'd like to add that we haven't touched on or anything that you want to go back to and say more about? CL: Um, there is a specific thing. It's, um. I think that this idea of chemical exposure and how people are affected by it. Actually, the experience with this helped me reflect more on what happened to my grandfather specifically. (20:35) He passed away by senior year of high school from mesothelioma, which is from asbestos exposure. And just on a personal level, it was interesting to kind of revisit and rethink about what happened to him, because I think at the time being like a senior in high school and not really understanding, just understanding that, you know, your grandparents get, you know, they age and they get �older. But I think the the randomness of the PFAS experience and hearing people, you know, what happened to their loved ones, I kind of re-reflected on on what happened to other people that I knew, basically, to understand, you know, why certain why or how different health health issues are managed later in life. So it became a very personal, self-reflective project because of that as well. DD: I can imagine. (21:28) I mean, as you said in the beginning, conversations about PFAS were naturally kind of lending themselves to also conversations about other kinds of chemical exposures and certainly water-based ones like lead. But I can definitely see how like something like asbestos would again kind of fit into that and allow for that kind of reflection and comparison. CL (21:53): Yeah, yeah. It's made me wonder how we how we how we approach all these issues. They're so segmented by type, but I'm just wondering how do we how do we approach them not necessarily by type, but just by by experience and by like health outcome, if you will, instead. DD: Yeah, I often hear people talking about how, you know, pulling lessons from other ways that we've we've handled lead or PCBs or things like that. Like, can we pull lessons from those in order to think about how we deal with exposures moving forward or the defenses of like, well, this is that's this and this is that and they don't compute. (22:42) CL: Yeah, yeah. DD: Well, thank you so much, Colleen, for taking the time to share your story and your research today. I really appreciate it. Yeah, thanks so much for having me. It was great talking with you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource The Living with PFAS interviews were recorded during 2021 to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a group of chemicals used to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. These products include clothing, furniture, adhesives, food packaging, and heat-resistant non-stick cooking surfaces. They are considered "forever chemicals" in that they do not break down in the environment, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and they build up in fish, wildlife, and in the human body. Studies have shown that exposure to large amounts of PFAS may affect growth and development, reproduction, thyroid function, the immune system, and may injure the liver. More research is needed to assess the full health effects of exposure to PFAS. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0039 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Linn, Colleen Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-04-30 Title A name given to the resource Colleen Linn, 2025 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource In this interview, Dani and Colleen discussed Colleen's research on PFAS in Michigan, focusing on how private well users and communities respond to water safety issues. Colleen's research also led her to reconsider her grandfather's experience with asbestos exposure, highlighting the broader implications of chemical exposure studies. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5babbe2a3f22da4b1f105c7b7c2cfc2f.mp4 69db2c20acf6e76f06521bd567a8bc9b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f814d527f47259f9230520cb52a3a489.pdf 3daf04fb5734351148a390a3a72f83b8 PDF Text Text Living with PFAS Interviewee: Tom Konecsni Interviewer: Dani DeVasto Date: May 18, 2023 DD (00:02): All right. Uh, I'm Dani DeVasto and today, May 18th, 2023. I have the pleasure of chatting with Tom, an individual who has been impacted by PFAS. Can you tell me about where you're from and where you currently live? TK (00:26): Yes. I, I currently live in, in the west Wolven area of Rockford, and I've been here, um, going on 16 years. DD (00:37): Great. TK (00:38): Prior to that, um, different states, uh, 23 years in Southern California. Um, couple years in Dallas, Fort Worth in Austin, Philadelphia, four years, and then, uh, Cleveland, Ohio, eight years. DD (00:58): Oh, you've really been in a lot of different places. TK (01:02): <laugh>. Yes. It was driven from, you know, childhood moves to, uh, young adult adulthood in southern California. DD (01:14): Awesome. Thank you. Can you tell me a story about your experience with PFAS or with PFAS in your community? TK (01:24): Yeah, and I'll, I'll start with, um, how, how I even came upon, you know, PFAS and that was, uh, in the, oh, I think the summertime of, uh, or the spring summertime of, um, 2010. I was driving my kids to school one day and I noticed a cloud of dust and particulate coming from the, uh, the tannery. And I looked over and they have a, a security fence around the property. And, uh, I noticed, uh, Pitch and Rockford were demoing the buildings. Pitch, being the demo, and Rockford doing the, the, the, the construction work. So there was a general, and I believe a sub on that job site. And while I was looking, um, I, I noticed that the buildings that were being knocked down were very old, and the dust being emitted and the cloud that was being generated from all the demolition activities was being blown into the neighborhoods and, uh, the local school. TK (02:40): 1 �So I, um, um, was concerned about that because I, I, at the time with my background, I believed that the buildings contained, you know, asbestos and lead and other chemicals, and I didn't like the fact that it was going beyond the, the property line. So I went to a public hearing at, at the high school, uh, a couple weeks later just to try to understand what was going on. And, uh, uh, a lot of the parties were present from, uh, Wolverine executives to the law, you know, the, the law law firm that was, um, um, that was hired basically to help them out through any legal matters. And then, uh, which was Rose & Westra, and then I believe GZA was there, and then city council, Mayor Michael Young and, and some other staff. And the presentation was basically trying to, um, soothe or, um, calm, calm people's concerns and fears of what was happening at the site, um, stating, um, situations or their facts of the contaminants that are, are there, aren't harmful. TK (04:08): And, you know, you'd have to drink a, an Olympic sized pool, you know, every day for 10 years to be affected by it. And with my environmental safety health background, when it became, um, question and answer period, I raised my hand and I, you know, I said, well, you know, that's not totally accurate because, you know, 23 of my career years, uh, or my career was in Southern Cal, and they have the toughest environmental regs in the country. And I said, you know, especially with lead, if you're six years or younger or 65 and older, you want zero in your blood. So, you know, there is no such thing as drinking an Olympic size pool and not be affected by, you know, lead and, uh, with the Flint problem, and, you know, this and that going on. Uh, that was just one of my concerns. TK (05:00): So when I stated that, um, the, uh, concerned Citizens Group at the time that was formed approached me and wondered if I could help them out, you know, with, with, um, their research into what's going on with, with that activity at the tannery and, um, the companies I worked for and me being in, in the, uh, Rockford school system and the stories that I was told with, um, certain intimidations going on with, uh, individuals in the, um, concerned Citizens Group and, and, and other people, uh, I wanted to be anonymous. And, uh, I chose to be that way for quite some time, um, until now. And, uh, uh, after some research and FOI-ng information, we were getting, um, a lot of, oh, excuses that it's a hardship to find this paperwork. Uh, you know, we don't have safety data sheets 'cause the building's been knocked down and, you know, it's required by regulation. TK (06:13): You have to have 'em for 30 years and or, you know, um, or even if you, you transfer ownership, that new ownership should need to, has to have them. Same with has waste manifest. And because we were getting, um, just a lot of, uh, no's from them or basically, um, obstacles in our way to get this information, uh, you know, more and more research was being done until we did get information that we needed so that we could present our findings to E uh, DEQ at the time, which is now Eagle, um, and presented to a Cadillac, which is the enforcement branch of it. Um, a few years went by where they were interested, but nothing was being done. And then we ended up, uh, going to Chicago and, uh, getting the interest of EPA Region five involved in 2017/18, where, um, the hand was forced, you know, to clean up the tannery and the House Street, um, sites where samples were taken and obviously high levels were found at House Street, a, a as well as the Rogue River in, in Rum Creek. And since then, I've been part of the monthly, um, community awareness group, Wolverine CAG, and, um, continue to, you know, just make sure things are being done right, you know, for the community and, and, uh, you know, all affected parties that come to Rockford, whether it's for entertainment or business or they're just living here. 2 �DD (08:00): Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, just for folks who might not be familiar, can you explain what a haz waste manifest is? TK (08:11): Yeah. Um, with anytime you have a, they call it a RCRA waste, which is a Resource Conservation Recovery Act, um, that was put together many, many decades ago, um, in the eighties, if you're on this list or if you have any of the characteristics of a hazardous waste, like if it's ignitable toxic, corrosive reactive, uh, there's definitions for that, then, um, it's, it's considered a RCRA waste and then it has to go to an approved treatment storage disposal facility where they either treat it, store it, or dispose of it. It could be just a landfill. And, um, you know, a lot of the toxic chemicals, reactive chemicals, ignitable, you know, those are, um, uh, you know, high risk, uh, that could cause immediately dangers to life and health situations if it's not, uh, monitored and, uh, handled properly. DD (09:16): Thank you. So you, you mentioned that when you, um, were first noticing the building being demolished, you were concerned about other hazardous, potentially hazardous substances like asbestos. Um, did, were you aware of PFAS at that time or when, like when did, when did PFAS kind of enter your, your world? TK (09:38): When, um, safety data sheets were, um, um, were looked at and reviewed, that's when the compound came up with Scotch Guard. So at the time, you know, and that was several years, um, after, um, getting Wolverine to try to do the right thing to clean up the site. So that was, uh, when I first got involved was the immediate aspects of, um, asbestos, you know, uh, particulate or, or dust, and then, um, you know, lead, lead as well. So that's what initiated, uh, my interest in, you know, trying to figure out, Hey, what, what, what's happening? There's contamination in the river, in the land, in the air, just from those two substances alone, hazardous substances. Mm-Hmm, DD (10:37): <affirmative> TK (10:39): Or materials or waste, but that they're called different, um, you know, different names based on the regulation that follows 'em. So you have OSHA that regulates asbestos, EPA, DOT, same with lead. DD (11:02): All right. It sounds like it was, um, a good thing that they, that they were able to get you in on the Concerned Citizens Group. <laugh> sounds like your your knowledge of, of environmental safety regulations and policies would be particularly useful. TK (11:22): Yes. Yes. And, uh, you know, it, it helped, you know, steer the path of, you know, where things are at currently to try to remediate, you know, the both sites, the tannery site as well as House Street. 3 �DD (11:38): And when you started seeing PFAS showing up on those, um, safety sheets, were you familiar with that concept or with that, with the class of chemicals? TK (11:49): I, I, I, I knew about it, but I had to do research on it. Um, I've heard it, but I didn't really know the toxicity of it, you know, until, until I did some research on it. I, I knew it was, you know, a water repellent that's, that they have for, you know, Teflon pans. It's a, it's a, it's a great, you know, chemical, so is asbestos, you know, a mineral. It's got a high tensile strength. It's was used in a lot of things, and it's still used in some brake pads today. So, um, you know, things could be chemicals, hazardous substance materials can be handled, but they need to be handled safely, you know, write PPE disposed of properly. You know, you could, you could do things, but you need to have procedures in place, you know, and, and follow them and enforce them. That's why they're there, you know? Mm-Hmm. DD (12:47): <affirmative>, yeah. What concerns do you have about PFAS contamination moving forward, if any? TK (12:56): Um, just that, uh, it's the forever chemical and, uh, you know, the concentrations that are, you know, currently in the Rogue, um, that, that goes to the Grand River, the Grand River goes to Lake Michigan and so on, so forth. Um, will it ever get to be a, a level that's safe, you know, for not only drinking, but you know, the general public, just recreational activities, boating, kayaking. So, um, I, you know, that's, that's a concern. You know what, since the science is somewhat new, and since health studies are new, considering studies on other chemicals that have been around for decades, um, it's evolving. And, you know, we don't know the exact, um, effects 10, 20, 30 years from now from, you know, PFAS in your blood, you know, at high levels. So, um, you know, will it lead to more cancers or, you know, other illnesses, you know, uh, for, for being in your body, you know, for a duration of time. DD (14:14): Yeah. So some of those really long, the unknown of the long term. TK (14:19): Yep. Yeah. The acute effects would be short term, you know, are are there acute effects, you know, possibly, you know, possibly if you consider getting cancer, you know, in a short period of time. Uh, but it's the long term that I, I think isn't, um, the science isn't out for that yet. But, you know, I'm not a toxicologist, so I can't, you know, verify that. DD (14:49): Fair enough. Uh, is there anything that you would want to add that we haven't touched on today, or anything that you want to go back to in what you've already said that you'd like to say more about? TK (15:05): Um, lemme think. No, other than, you know, it's been a long, long journey, you know, to see where things first started, to where everything has ended. I mean, there's, uh, you know, details on how information was, uh, received and gathered and, and put together and, and, uh, you know, that those 4 �aspects, um, I may come back to in a, in a future time. But, um, for the purpose of this, this recording, um, I'm just given a high, high level, high look down, um, summary of my, uh, um, my experience through, you know, living here and being part of the community and being part of the CAG, um, to actually having these sites mediated. So, uh, it's, it's, you know, it didn't happen overnight and it's continuously evolving. Again, it's not a destiny, but it's gonna be this, you know, this long journey to see how this, this ends up, if we ever do, you know, DD (16:32): Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, TK (16:34): Maybe not in my lifetime, but, um, my, my gen, you know, not my kids generation and so on and so forth. DD (16:45): Yeah. PFAS is the, the situation both in Rockford area as well as kind of, I think globally. Yeah. Around PFAS. It's all still emerging and unfolding. And, and that's part of the, I think the challenge, TK (17:03): The tough part is, you know, it's, they're even finding it in rainwater. So when it rains, you know, there's <laugh>, you have PFAS and pretty much everybody has it in their, in their body throughout the world, and, you know, at different levels, depending on their exposure, their dose, the duration, that's what really determines, you know, what your health effects will be, DD (17:30): Right. Yeah. It's, uh, like you said, it's still an evolving, unfolding situation and TK (17:39): You be cautious, right? It's everywhere, right? DD (17:42): Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah, TK (17:45): Exactly. And, uh, you know, I just, uh, just want people to do, do the right thing. I've always been, um, on the defense side of, of corporations, you know, from a OSHA, EPA, uh, standpoint, um, DOT standpoint, and, you know, having this opportunity in front of me to, Hey, let's just, you know, have corporate America do the right thing. Um, kids live here, go to school here. It's a good, good community. You know, I enjoy, you know, the, the environment and, you know, I'd like to stay here. So if I'm gonna do that, um, you know, do what we can to clean, clean up, uh, you know, the contaminated areas. DD (18:35): Yeah. It sounds like you are doing that -- what you can, TK (18:39): 5 �Right? DD (18:41): It does sound like TK (18:42): With the power invest invested in me, right? You grant me that, right Dani? DD (18:48): <Laugh> If I could, I would. <laugh>. Oh, well thank you so much for taking the time to share your story today, even at a high level. I understand that, like I said, the situation is evolving and, um, I really appreciate that you're willing to talk and share the parts of your story today that you did. TK (19:14): Yeah, no problem. Dani, remember when you put this into a book or a movie, I want to be the one of the actors. Don't ask for Tom Cruise. I wanna be able to be the main character and pick, you know, my, uh, my partner like Michelle Pfeiffer, Julie Roberts has had too many roles like that <laugh> with Erin Brockovich. So as long as that happens, Dani, you'll get all the details from me. All right, DD (19:40): <laugh> Sounds good, Tom. 6 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource The Living with PFAS interviews were recorded during 2021 to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a group of chemicals used to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. These products include clothing, furniture, adhesives, food packaging, and heat-resistant non-stick cooking surfaces. They are considered "forever chemicals" in that they do not break down in the environment, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and they build up in fish, wildlife, and in the human body. Studies have shown that exposure to large amounts of PFAS may affect growth and development, reproduction, thyroid function, the immune system, and may injure the liver. More research is needed to assess the full health effects of exposure to PFAS. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0038 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Konecsni, Tom Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-05-18 Title A name given to the resource Tom Konecsni, 2023 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Tom Konecsni is a resident of Rockford, Michigan. After observing a building demolition in 2010, Tom became concerned about the environmental impacts of industry and chemicals in the area. He joined the Concerned Citizens Group. In the interview, he shares his observations about PFAS from various corporations that impact the area around Rockford, Grand Rapids, and the Grand River. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d1af20dddb59506ed78052ac4774ca29.mp4 e6aa24ce84980a180424e40d73d9d3d4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a34de98270340852c9721faa57738ffb.pdf de73a45ac4a20f4e703d78c93feca3c7 PDF Text Text Living with PFAS Interviewer: Danielle DeVasto Interviewee: Wendy Thomas Date of Interview: 2023-03-01 Danielle DeVasto: Okay. I'm Dani DeVasto, and today March 1, 2023. I have the pleasure of chatting with Wendy Thomas. Hi Wendy. Wendy Thomas: Hi, how are you? Danielle DeVasto: I'm doing well. How are you? Wendy Thomas: Oh, I'm hanging in there. Thanks. Hanging in. Danielle DeVasto: Wendy, can you tell me about where you're from and where you currently live? Wendy Thomas: Sure. Um, well, I grew up in, uh, Fairfield, Connecticut, and then I moved to New Hampshire in 1980, and we, I currently live in Merrimack, New Hampshire, and we've lived here for 32 years, my husband and six children, adult children. Danielle DeVasto: I have a sister-in-law who lives or was from New Hampshire, and she tells me that that is a very beautiful area of the state. Wendy Thomas: It's gorgeous. Um, we're known as the mountainous state for a reason, you know, um, lots, especially up north there's, there's lots of parks and trees and mountains and lakes. It's, it's gorgeous. It's a beautiful State to live in. Danielle DeVasto: Wendy, can you tell me a story about your experience with PFAS or with PFAS in your community? Wendy Thomas: Sure. Um, I'm going to start at the beginning, um, because that works the best for me. So in 2016, I heard about a water group in our town. Merrimack Concerned Citizens for wat- uh clean water. Um, and so I went to one of their meetings because I thought it had to do with a pipeline that had been proposed that was gonna run through our town, which was, we had feared, it would disrupt our water supply and, and I, and they, they pulled the pipeline project. And so I, I thought that the water situation had been, you know, resolved. So I went to this meeting, and I heard about something called PFAS chemicals. And that was really my first introduction to it. I didn't, I didn't know what these chemicals were. I didn't know they were in the water. Um, we have a private well, so I thought we were okay, 'causae they were talking about public water being tested. Um, and so, um, but because I, as I said, I have six kids, um, at the time they were living at home. So I got our private well tested. Um, and again, this was 2016, um, and our levels, um, were so high that we had to shut our well down immediately. Um, and um, now the state had told us, so we know who is polluting our town. It's, it's an industrial corporation called Saint Gobain. They've been spewing this chemical into the air, into the soil, into the, uh, water for decades. Um, and it was only discovered in 2016 when they self-reported. So it had to have been bad at that point. Um, and originally the State of New Hampshire had said the only people that needed to be concerned about contamination in their water were people who lived within a half mile radius of this company. Um, pretty quickly after doing some testing, they modified that to a mile radius. Now I lived three miles from this corporation. So the state was telling me that my water was safe, and I got it tested and it was so high, we had to shut it down. So my husband and I installed a full house filtration system. Page 1 �We put in an, uh, reverse osmosis in the kitchen. The kids were only allowed to drink from the reverse osmosis. Um, and again, I mean the cost of a full house filtration system plus the reverse osmosis, plus to maintain them yearly, plus the, the fee to get them installed was about $5,000. And we had to pay this because a corporation did this to our water, you know, so, um, but, but of course we did, and we were fortunate that we could afford that, but so many people in our town, you know, couldn't afford that. So, um, I got active in this group, and we tried real hard to, um, to educate people in town about PFAS. But, um, the problem with these chemicals is you can't see them, you can't smell them, you can't taste them. And so the group was primarily women, and we were labeled fearmongers um, you know, you know, we hate our town because we're trying to get people not to move here. You know, we're gonna cause the, the town property values to go down because we're talking about this contamination. So initially we, we had a lot of, um, uh, pushback from the town. Um, and then, you know, throughout the years there, there were a couple of red flags, but I never really put them all together. All six of my kids, um, were born with dyslexia, um, which is a learning disability could be genetic couldn't, you know, might not be genetic who knows. Um, I recently put down my fourth dog who has died of cancer. Um, and that seems a little problematic to have four dogs, you know, in one household all have cancer like that. Um, my kids all have autoimmune issues. Um, again, genetic, maybe, maybe not it's, it's not in either of our families. Um, my husband, um, had, uh, several heart attacks and had a quadruple bypass at age 55, which is fairly young for that, and again, you know, we thought, you know, maybe it's just bad luck and everything. Um, and then in May of last year I was diagnosed with, uh, breast cancer. Um, it was invasive lobular cancer, which, um, very lucky to have found it early. Um, and so I opted for, uh, a bilateral mastectomy. Um, they, they were trying to get me to only do one side, but I, I did both. Um, and they found four precancerous conditions in the unaffected breast. So, um, I had, I spoke with the environmental working group in DC, and they suggested I get my blood tested for PFAS chemicals. And this is after being on a whole house filtration system, having water delivered by Saint Gobain for the last three years, plastic bottled water. Um, I have 12 chemicals in my blood that are above the toxic limit that that is allowed for humans, 12 PFAS chemicals. My, um, PFOS chemicals are 38 times the maximum value that's allowed for humans, and those are associated with breast cancer. Um, my PFOA chemicals, I have more than 99% of Americans do. Um, and those are associated with ovary and fallopian tube cancer. So I had previously had, um, a hysterectomy, but, um, because of the blood levels, my oncologists, um, decided that, that it would be, um, prudent for me to go and remove my ovaries and fallopian tubes to, to get rid of them before the cancer could essentially find them. So, so that's what it's like living in a contaminated town. We have to amputate parts of our body, our bodies to stay ahead of the, the poisonous toxins that will give us cancer, um, in order to stay alive, you know, we have to, we have to lay them at the altar of corporate greed because they're not stopping. They're to this day. They're still, um, emitting PFAS, uh, chemicals into our, our environment. Well, and, and my husband had his blood tested, and he has the same chemicals I do. He doesn't have them at as high a level as I do, but, you know, and of course the, the, the corporation is saying, there's no direct proof right now that PFAS causes chemical or causes cancer. Um, Page 2 �but we're finding that there, there are cases where it's causing cancer, and you know, I'm done, I'm done, I've got cancer, you know, so, I, there's nothing for me to, to, to hold back anymore.So, you know, they're saying that that it's not related, and I'm saying it's quacking like a duck, it's looking like a duck it's walking like a duck. You know, I think what we have here is a big fat duck. Danielle DeVasto: So you had mentioned that you were starting to get involved with the, the group, your local group. Um, is it something that you're still doing, or how did that, how has that been? Wendy Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. So because of that group, um, that's the reason I ran for state rep the first time there were two others that were involved in that group. So we became the water warriors for our town, and we got elected. It's a very red town, we're blue, but, um, we got elected. Um, and so we immediately went up to the state house and we, we put bills forward to, um, uh, have maximum containment, uh, contamination levels for PFAS in our water. Um, and again, uh, a lot of people, um, pushed back because they didn't know what PFAS was. They didn't know the damage. Um, and we were, we were just constant. We would sit down next to somebody at lunch, and we'd say, hey, how are you? I'm Wendy Thomas, have you heard about PFAS? You know, so, um, we did a, you know, know a real educational job, um, educating the other, uh, state representatives. Um, I also put together a team that, um, outside of the legislature, because sometimes you can get things done faster outside of, um, the procedures. And we, uh, developed some educational, uh, material regarding PFAS, uh, for people in New Hampshire. Um, and, and I've been to some conferences and, uh, attend, you still attend meetings on it. And, and now, so I wasn't a state rep for the second term, but I got reelected the third term, so, oh, I'm back up there putting more PFAS legislation in. Danielle DeVasto: Did you have a background in government in, in legislation? Wendy Thomas: No. Danielle DeVasto: Running for representative? Wendy Thomas: No. No. Um, I have, um, a degree in, in communications. I have a degree in, um, medical biology. So, um, you know, the impact of all of this made, made tremendous sense to me. Um, I'm also, um, I, I am an instructional designer. I'm a tech writer, I'm a journalist, you know, so all of these things sort of merge together in this, in this, um, path forward for advocacy Danielle DeVasto: You have a lot of skill sets to draw on that I'm sure — Wendy Thomas: Yeah but government wasn't one of them though. some of these archaic rules that we have to follow are like, you can't walk in front of the speaker during session, if you do, you have to apologize to the entire, you know, it's just some very weird things, Danielle DeVasto: But you mentioned that, so since, since working in this position and as a representative that you've been doing a lot of education, not just for the community, but also within the legislature. Wendy Thomas: Yes. Yeah. So this year I've put two bills forward. I think they're both gonna die because, um, there's, there's problems with lobbyists, you know, lobbyists have money, and they don't want, you know, PFAS to be acknowledged because it's gonna cost money to remediate and to, to treat Page 3 �it. One of my bills was that if, if, um, a real estate agent is, is showing property to a prospective buyer, they need to notify the buyer about PFAS in the water. It sounds logical. I mean, PFAS, if you drink it for a long time, it, it will hurt you. Um, but the real estate agents, um, were against that because they thought it would put too much of a burden on the seller. You know, the test is about $200. It's come down from about $400. Um, and the thing is in New Hampshire, we only recognize four, four of the many, many, many thousands of PFAS chemicals. So, you know, it was just a drop in the bucket, but at least it was something. Um, and then I put a bill forward to, um, mandate that insurance companies pay for preventive care, uh, PFAS care, if your blood tests over 20 parts per million. Um, and boy, they didn't like that one at all, the, the lobbyists and they, you know, they're, they're pretty strong up there. Um, and the reason that that came forward is that, um, originally my, the surgery to remove my ovaries and fallopian tubes was denied by my insurance company, because they were like PFAS. What, you know, what's that, you know? So, um, once my physician, um, diagnosed me with environmental toxins, then it went through, um, I also know of a young woman in town, um, who I think she's 24 years old. She has some breast issues. She had some lumpy breasts and went to, you know, lives in our town. Um, I urged her to go, you know, to, to a clinic and have her, her breasts examined. And, and, um, she did, and she asked about a mammogram, and they said, oh, no, no, no, no, you don't get a mammogram until you're 29 years old. Well, if she has cancer from PFAS in her breasts right now, she could be dead by age 29. You know, so things are going to have to change for those of us that have high levels of PFAS in our blood. You know, um, the CDC came out with some terrific guidelines, uh, recently they haven't fully adopted them, but they will. Um, and these guidelines, even, you know, if a, if a baby has PFAS, um, above 20 parts per million in their blood, you start checking them for cholesterol at age one, you know, um, when we talk about high cholesterol, um, high blood sugar, um, as a result of PFAS in our body, we're not just talking about an inconvenience inconvenience. Those are killer diseases, you know, cholesterol that's, that's what almost killed my husband. You know, so it's, it's invasive, it's pervasive. Um, you know, and the biggest thing I think is that, uh, PFAS chemicals are hormone disruptors and everything revolves around hormones, everything in our lives. And if you doubt the power of hormones, you've never had a teenage son, you know. You know, but everything revolves around, uh, hormones. And if you, if you mess those up, you know, you're messing up the entire body. You know, one of the, the, um, medications that they wanted me to go on is an estrogen blocker for, um, my, my breast cancer. But no one, no one can tell me if these hormone disruptors work with these, this medication, or if it works against this medication. So yeah, I've been reluctant to take it. I, I take a supplement instead, um, hoping that, you know, maybe that will, that will work, but it's things like that. We don't have the science, um, it's going to be, I'll probably be long dead before we have the science that's gonna prove this because we're working so slowly in the United States, Europe is doing a better job, but, uh, we're really dragging our heels on PFAS studies in, in the United States. Page 4 �Danielle DeVasto: I've heard from other people that dealing sometimes dealing with the medical community has been frustrating because, because of that leg, has that been your experience or have you been able to get, like, get support and — ? Wendy Thomas: No, no. That's another one of my crusades. So, um, when I got the, the, um, results of my blood P my blood PFAS levels, I presented them to my surgeon who did my mastectomy, who I was still under her care. And I said, these are my results. These are the interpretation of my results. And without even looking at them, she pushed them back to me. And she said, I'm just a surgeon. I don't need to know about PFAS. And I said, well, I've been advocating against PFAS since 2016. You are no longer my doctor. If you choose to remain ignorant, we can't have a relationship. See you, bye. Um, and my oncologist, she basically said the same thing. I said, what is the relationship between a, a hormone disruptor and this estrogen blocker? And she's like, beats me. So I don't have a surgeon. I don't have an oncologist. I'm trying to find somebody who's knowledgeable. As a State rep, I do have a platform. So I am going to go to the supervisor of, of these doctors in Southern New Hampshire and discuss PFAS education, because this is criminal, you know, all of Southern New Hampshire. It's not just our town because, um, water doesn't understand boundaries, air doesn't understand boundaries. Um, and so it's slowly spreading to the other towns, um, and to be a physician practicing in Southern New Hampshire and not know about the impact of PFAS on the human body is in its malpractice. Um, that's what it is. It's malpractice. Danielle DeVasto: Have you, um, have you been in touch with other communities or has your work kind of, I mean, you have, like you say, you have a larger platform, so I'm just curious if — Wendy Thomas: Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, um, the, you know, we've, we've formed sort of a coalition with the other, uh, communities, and we're working with them, although they're at the place we were in 2016, people are starting, you know, they're, we can't smell it. We can't taste it. I've lived here my whole year, and I'm not sick. I mean my whole life, and I'm not sick, you know, so, but the thing is there are, there is more information about PFAS, and people now are accepting that it can cause damage, you know, to, to humans and cancer. I mean, we have just a ton of cancer in this town. The State of New Hampshire does a cancer survey, but they're, they've only done it up to 2018. So they're five years behind. You know, so they have this false picture of how much cancer we have. I have been de I mean, every time I go to the state house, I desperately ask for, um, a, a survey on small animals, you know, pets, cats, dogs, even, uh, we're an agricultural community. So farm animals, um, because, um, I've talked to area vets, and they say they always know a dog or a cat when it comes from our town, 'cause it's got, you know, it's riddled with cancer, and it's got, um, uh, tumors all over its body. Um, Yeah. And then in Europe, the very first PFAS conference I went to, um, in Italy, there's a town that's very contaminated with PFAS, and they did, um, studies on their food, and it turns out that eggs, um, have a high amount of PFAS, produce has a high amount of PFAS because this company, you know, they burn their refuse and the, the soot, you know, the, the temperature doesn't destroy these forever chemicals. That's why they're called forever chemicals. So they're, they become particulate matter. It's spread over our town. Every time they burn this Page 5 �stuff, the rain drives it into the ground. The produce sucks it up. So our produce has PFAS in it. Our meat has PFAS in it, you know, any milk that comes out of this town has PFAS in it. So, you know, I mean the CDC, if you go to their guidelines, um, not the ones where you have PFAS in your blood, but just sort of general guidelines, they say, you know, the best thing you can do is remove the source. Well, that works. If you're only wearing a Gore-Tex jacket when you're camping, or if, you know, if you get rid of your glide, you know, dental floss, but when you live and breathe this stuff, the only way I can eliminate the source is to move out of my town, and who's gonna buy a house with no water in it. Danielle DeVasto: So what do you do? Wendy Thomas: Well, you know, again, I've got cancer, so, um, I have no, no F's left to give. So, um, I I'm out there banging the drum. I write letters to the editor. Um, I write op-eds, um, I've shared my cancer story, um, publicly in our town forum. Um, and many, many, many women have contacted me privately, um, to, to say that they also have breast cancer, or they have ovarian cancer or uterine cancer or, you know, things like that. So, um, I'm using my story to get attention about the problem, you know, I'm, I, I'm not doing it to get sympathy. That's not why I'm doing it. I'm doing it to, because this is not fair and people need to speak up about it. Danielle DeVasto: You've kind of hit at some of these already, but what concerns do you have about PFAS contamination moving forward? Wendy Thomas: I am concerned about the life of my town. Um, one of the things that is so underappreciated is that when pregnant women drink PFAS laced water at the levels we're seeing in our town, their children have a high incidence of learning disabilities. And, you know, they're, again, this is going to affect their hormones, which, you know, we have a, we have a high degree of, of kids with gender confusion in our town. And in, in surrounding towns, is it because of the PFAS chemicals? You know, again, we don't know, but again, it's another quacking like a duck situation, you know? So, so, you know, women, especially pregnant women, they need to be given filtered water. You know, we, we just can't, we can't let them drink this stuff. Um, and, and kids, you know, of women that have PFAS in their blood, we need to screen them immediately and start, you know, special education services or just, you know, monitoring services for these kids and the older people, you know, that have lived in town. Now, again, I've been here for 30 years. Um, I nursed all of my kids, so I drank a ton of water, um, which could explain why I have higher chemicals or higher levels than my husband. Um, but I'm worried about my children, you know, they're adults, um, they all have health issues, you know, what's gonna happen to them. I worry about, you know, my neighbor's children's, I worry about our town, you know, and it's, it's just, it's criminal what's happening. Um, but we can't, we're not, we don't seem to be able to stop it, which is, you know, I can't figure that out because it's directly hurting people, and yet they're allowed to continue. So, you know, whenever that's the case, you always have to follow the money, and I'm trying to figure out where the money is involved. Um, and I haven't come up with much yet. Page 6 �Danielle DeVasto: I mean, it's so ironic, right? You, you drink water because that's, what's supposed to be healthy for you.Good for you. And you're trying to make good decisions. And yet, as it turns out, you know the consequences. Wendy Thomas: You know, and I'm one of the water warriors. So, so I did all the right things. We installed that the filtration system, we, we drank from RO, um, and, and still, still, it looks like I may have gotten sick from these chemicals. Um, it looks like my whole family has been affected by these chemicals. So, you know, if a water warrior can't even protect our own family, what chance do other people in town have? I mean, right now in New Hampshire, you know, the, the utility bills are through the roof, you know, with inflation, with, with, you know, people losing work because their kids are home sick from school because they're getting infected with COVID. People don't have a spare $5,000 to, to make sure their water is clean, you know, and again, it's because of this, this corporation, you know, it's, it's truly an example of profit over people. You know, and the social warrior in me is just chronically incensed. Um, because it shouldn't be that way people should, should be first over profit. Danielle DeVasto: And this has been going on in Merrimack for quite some time. It sounds like. Wendy Thomas: Yes. Yes. Well, the, the company before this company was a one called Chem Fab, and I'm quite certain, they were probably doing the same thing, you know, disposing of their chemicals, uh, in, in ways that, that perhaps, well, no, that not perhaps that aren't legal. Um, but this company that moved in Saint Gobain it, their headquarters are in France, you know, and France has very strict environmental rules. If they did this in France, their CEO would be in jail, You know, but they came to America, and they came to the, to, to New Hampshire, live free and die. It's supposed to be live free or die, but, um, where we have, you know, few regulations, um, and they, they picked a town that was near river that had, you know, that wasn't, you know, a, a, a town that, that was organized. We don't have a town square or anything like that. Um, and they, they just ran with it because they could, so one of my goals is I wanna try to reach out to President Macron and just say, are you aware of this company destroying my town, this French company, you know, and if you are, why aren't you doing something about it? Danielle DeVasto: Boy, the things I bet you thought you'd never be doing, reaching out. Wendy Thomas: No, no kidding. I mean, I'm also trying to have a, have a meeting with President Biden, you know, because he's, he's big on the moonshot, you know, cancer program, and it's fine to fly to the moon. It's fine to land on the moon, but if we don't clean up planet earth, it's not gonna do us any good, you know, so, um, but very often politicians don't wanna hear this because, um, it impacts, you know, big donors to their campaigns. And I don't have big donors. I, um, am a state rep in New Hampshire. I am paid a hundred dollars a year to be a state rep. Danielle DeVasto: No big donors, Wendy Thomas: No big donors. No, no. I'm lucky if I get a free lunch every once in a while. Page 7 �Danielle DeVasto: Before we wrap up today, Wendy, is there anything else that you want to add that we haven't touched on or that you want to go back to and say more about? Wendy Thomas: Um, not really. I mean, that's, that's the story. Um, you know, as a result of this, I, I now have to live the rest of my life wondering if every pain is cancer or if, you know, every symptom is cancer. Um, thanks to this, this company, living in my town, I have to be concerned about my two daughters, you know, whether or not they're going to have cancer. I have to be concerned about my four sons, whether or not they're gonna have to, you know, end up having cancer. Um, it's just this chronic anxiety. Um, and, and I could leave my town, you know, I could move to greener pastures, but the damage has already been done, you know, so I'm gonna stay here, and I've decided I'm gonna stay here and fight, um, and try to get acknowledgement and maybe some re- remediation, you know? Um, but yeah, I'm not going anywhere, and I'm not being quiet. I've never known for being quiet. So Danielle DeVasto: Well, thank you so much, Wendy, for taking the time to share your story today. Wendy Thomas: Oh, my pleasure. Thank you for what you're doing. This is really important work. Danielle DeVasto: Thank you. Wendy Thomas: You're welcome. Page 8 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource The Living with PFAS interviews were recorded during 2021 to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a group of chemicals used to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. These products include clothing, furniture, adhesives, food packaging, and heat-resistant non-stick cooking surfaces. They are considered "forever chemicals" in that they do not break down in the environment, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and they build up in fish, wildlife, and in the human body. Studies have shown that exposure to large amounts of PFAS may affect growth and development, reproduction, thyroid function, the immune system, and may injure the liver. More research is needed to assess the full health effects of exposure to PFAS. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0037 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Thomas, Wendy Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-03-01 Title A name given to the resource Wendy Thomas, 2023 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Wendy Thomas grew up in Fairfield, Connecticut and now resides in Merrimack, New Hampshire with her husband and six children. After her concerns and advocacy over PFAS grew, Wendy was elected to the New Hampshire State House of Representatives, where she worked to improve water quality and educate other representatives. In this interview, Wendy discusses her family's history with PFAS contamination of their well water, as well as her own advocacy and political action related to PFAS. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/836a13c38e936443effbf5034abd889f.mp4 e2af5c96a3d378d8ac6f7a99f8896749 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/20900ff7830055b61eb8f83574a068d6.pdf d872b7f0104e225c1a62d6bfc9606994 PDF Text Text Living with PFAS Interviewer: Danielle DeVasto Interviewee: Andrea Amico Date of Interview: 2023-02-10 Danielle DeVasto: I'm Dani DeVasto. And today, February 10, 2023. I have the pleasure of chatting with Andrea Amico. Hi Andrea. Andrea Amico: Hi, Danielle DeVasto: Andrea, can you tell me about where you're from and where you currently live? Andrea Amico: Sure. Um, I grew up in central Massachusetts, uh, Leominster, Mass, but I currently live in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. Danielle DeVasto: How long have you lived there? Andrea Amico: I moved to Portsmouth New Hampshire in 2007 when my husband took a job up this way, it brought us from Massachusetts to New Hampshire. And we have been here since. Danielle DeVasto: Can you tell me a story please? About your experience with PFA S or with PFAS in your community? Andrea Amico: Sure. So I like to say in May of 2014, my life changed forever. I read a newspaper article that had said they found high levels of PFAS in the drinking water wells at the Pease Tradeport, uh, which is imports with New Hampshire, where I live. And it is home to a former Air Force base that had been shut down in 1991. So many years before I had moved to the area and really knew a lot about the prior Air Force base and the fact that it was a super fun site. I didn't know that, but why it was important to me and devastating to me, frankly, when I learned that there was contamination, there was because my husband was working for a company at the Pease Tradeport. And my two children were attending a daycare center located at the Tradeport, and all three of them were drinking the water every day. And so when I read that article that they had found high levels of PFAS, and they had to shut down a large drinking water well, because the contamination was significant. Um, my heart sank, you know, because I was like, whoa, I don't know what these chemicals are, but my family's drinking that water. My kids are drinking that water. Like, what is this? What does this mean? So that's how I became introduced to PFAS back in 2014. Danielle DeVasto: And then what happened after that point for you? So you found out, you read the article and then, and then what? Andrea Amico: Yeah. So I started attending community meetings that were being hosted by our city and our state, and I just started trying to learn as much as I could about these chemicals. And, you know, back then in 2014, there wasn't a lot of information. Honestly, I, you know, searched the internet and I could find stuff about the C8 health project and C8 health study in Parkersburg, West Virginia. I found some EPA documents that were like 800 pages long and really hard to make sense of, but PFAS was not, uh, known and given the, you know, attention in the media and, uh, frankly like the scientific studies and resources that it is today. Um, and so I attended some community meetings and tried to do my, do my best to educate myself. And, um, the first thing I really started advocating for was blood testing for my community, because I knew that these chemicals built up in the body, and they stayed there for a long time. And I knew that you could have a blood test to determine how much was in your body. Um, even Page 1 �though we don't really know what that means, but you know, or at the time we didn't really know what it meant, but, so that was like one of the first things I did was advocate for blood testing. And then I formed a community action group with two other moms whose children also went to the daycare center, and we formed a group called Testing for Pease. And our first big, big push was that blood testing program. Hence, the testing part of Testing for Pease. Danielle DeVasto: And how did that go? Andrea Amico: Um, so we were successful. It took a lot of pressure, um, but we were able to get our State health department to offer a PFAS blood testing program to our, to the community at the Pease Tradeport, um, between 2015 and 2018 of almost 2000 people participated in that program. And it did reveal elevated levels of PFAS in the blood when compared to the, you know, general population. We know everybody has some detectable levels of PFAS in their blood, but the levels at the Pease Tradeport were elevated when compared to, you know, the general population. And with that information, we were able to advocate for filtration of the drinking water and the Air Force paid for that. Uh, we were also able to advocate for health studies for the community, and we were successful in getting two PFAS health studies for our community. One was with the ATSDR, Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry. They're a kind of like a sister branch of the CDC. They're a federal health agency that works with communities who have dealt with environmental contamination. Um, so we did have a large health study done, uh, that actually wrapped up about a year ago, and we're still awaiting our community results. And we have another health study that's ongoing today, um, called the PFAS reach study and that's funded by the NIEHS, and that is, um, looking at children of mothers who drink water at Pease, um, and looking at their, the child's PFAS levels and their immune function, 'cause we know PFAS can impact vaccines and vaccine effectiveness and the immune function of children. So, um, so we've been really successful here, you know, that blood testing program that we initially advocated for, I think opened up a lot of opportunities for advocating for remediation filtration and additional health studies. Danielle DeVasto: Wow. That's great that you guys have been so successful. What do you attribute that to? 'Cause I don't think that's the story everywhere. Andrea Amico: Yeah, I completely agree. I think there's a couple things. I think we were one of the first communities to really grapple with this. I know there were some others, but um, we were one of the first back in 2014, like I said, you know, Parkersburg, West Virginia was kind of on the radar with the CA health study there. But, um, and I know that, uh, the Wurtsmith Air Force Base had found their contamination as well. But I think us being one of the first, uh, communities to have a really significant contamination, uh, especially to a trad port of, you know, about 10,000 people were coming to this tradeport to work every day. Um, so I think timing being one of the first and really pushing when there wasn't a hundred other communities asking for the same thing, we were kind of the first ones. Um, I also think, like I said, we were a tradeport. Um, our forma military base was closed under what's called the bra program. It was the first BRAC site with DOD base realignment closure. Um, that program was really that program focuses on taking former bases and redeveloping them. And so I know Pease was considered a Page 2 �very big success story to the Air Force. The fact that they took this old base, redeveloped it into this large industrial park with 250 businesses, 10,000 employees like there's, you know, community colleges, restaurants, a golf course, um, all kinds of businesses, medical office buildings, restaurants, like this was a highly successful place for New Hampshire as well as a large economic hub for New Hampshire. You know, so they really, we, no one could just really walk away from this community. You know, I mean this was a, a significant resource and asset to New Hampshire. So I think that was part of it as well. Um, and I also think we were very successful in establishing relationships very early on with our congressional delegation and our elected officials and a lot of the efforts that happened at Pease, where as a result of, you know, our Senator from New Hampshire Jeanne Shaheen, who's been a PFAS leader in the U.S. Senate, uh, making sure we have funding for the health study, the at ATSDR Health Study, really pushing for the air force to clean up and filter the water. And, um, we also had an EPA order from region one that ordered the E uh, Air Force to clean up the contamination. And again, I think part of that was timing of being one of the first, but also just, I feel like it was a lot of things that came together, you know, timing quick, organizing on the community part, asking for things, being one of the first and having strong relationships with congressional leaders who were able to really, um, put legislation in place to give us action. So I attribute all of our successes to a combination of those things. Danielle DeVasto: Prior to all of this beginning, were you, um, did you have a background in community organization advocacy work? Andrea Amico: No, I get asked that a lot. No, I didn't. [LAUGHTER[ Um, so by training, I'm an occupational therapist. I work in the world of rehabilitation, neuro adult rehab. Um, and so yeah, no, I didn't have any knowledge. Like I was never an envi-. I wouldn't, you know, didn't think a whole lot, lot about the environment, you know, like this just never politically active. Um, it just wasn't, it just wasn't something I ever did or was never part of my life, even my family, you know, it just wasn't something I was raised to do. So it honestly took this happening to my family and my community to kind of spark a fire inside of me and say like, all right, like we gotta do something here, you know? And I think that's what was so shocking to me in the beginning when like they found our contamination, they shut down the well, and, you know, at first we were asking for blood testing, and it was like, we weren't getting, making a lot of progress on that. And it just, it kind of like, it shocked me that like a large amount of people could have been exposed, you know, were exposed to high levels of contaminants and drinking water. And at the time they were calling them emerging contaminants and our State health department was like, we don't really know the health effects. Like we're just not really sure. And it seemed like everyone was okay with just not being sure as a reason to not do anything. And that just, I couldn't accept that, you know, and like, I can't accept the unknown as a good enough answer not to do anything. Like if you don't know, you have to find out, you have to do health studies, you have to do blood testing. Like you can't just leave us all to carry on with our lives and not know if we're gonna get sick from this over time or, you know, so, um, yeah, sorry. That was a long winded answer, but, uh, no, I didn't have any prior experience and in a way I Page 3 �feel like that was a benefit. 'Cause I just came at this like trying to use common sense and be like, okay, you have to do more like, it's like not acceptable to just accept the unknown. Danielle DeVasto: So you're continuing right now with your advocacy work, correct? Andrea Amico: Yes. Danielle DeVasto: Like it's not, it's not done. Andrea Amico: Oh, it's definitely not done. I, I tell people it's, it's like a lifetime. I have set my mind up that this will be a lifetime of work for me in some way or another, you know? Um, I do a lot of work at the national level now, so I'm part of the national PFAS contamination coalition. I helped found that in 2017, and we're a large group of community, community leaders like me from all over the country, um, who are also dealing with this issue, whether it's at former military bases like mine, whether it's at industrial sites, like Saint Galvan um, that's contaminated, Miramac New Hampshire, Husick Falls, uh, Husick Falls, New York, uh, lots of firefighters who also are concerned about PFAS. Um, so yeah, we're a real, you know, broad group of people and working at the national level to try to get better EPA regulations, you know, hold polluters accountable so they are forced to clean up this mess. They're forced to fund health studies and, and make people whole again, you know, um, it's, it's incredibly wrong what has happened with PFAS in this country? You know, the fact that manufacturers hid the health effects for so many years, they were just allowed to manufacture so many PFAS, put them out into our environment. They're in our bodies, um, with no regulations with no consequences. And even now what we know, we're still, we still aren't at a point where they're regulated at a federal level. I mean, we're getting there, but, um, it's, it's, it's absolutely horrific to me how this is all played out in our country. And I hope it's an example of like how we need to do so much better as a country and as a society and how we treat chemicals and what we're willing to expose people to. And, um, because these chemicals are never going away. And so anyways, I see my work as something that will go on forever. I really do. As, as long as I'm living, there will be something to work on with PFAS. Um, and, and I'm committed to that. You know, I, I gave a, a TEDx talk in my community a few years ago, and I ended, I ended the line, like, I'll see people, and they're like, oh, you're still doing that water stuff. And I'm like, yeah. And I, I ended my talk saying like, you know, I, I'm never gonna stop because I'm just as per persistent as PFAS, you know, like, I'm, [LAUGHTER] I'm just as persistent as PFAS. So like, yeah, it's, my work will evolve over time, but like I have committed my mind to a lifetime of work on PFAS to some degree Danielle DeVasto: In the move that you've made from kind of focusing on just the local to the national, um, like what, what has that shift been like for you, or what have you noticed in making those shifts? Andrea Amico: Um, well the I've noticed that I'm not alone., [LAUGHTER] um, we're not alone, you know, as frustrating as it feels to be. Sometimes you can feel siloed in your own community and how everything happens. Um, I've realized that there's a lot of other people out there just like us who have experienced the same things, um, who want the same things. And all of our stories are different. You know, our polluters are different. Our sources of PFAS are different in some cases, but like, we all want the same things. Like we don't wanna be exposed to chemicals that we didn't volunteer or sign up for, you Page 4 �know? Um, and so I've, I feel a sense of collaboration and I feel a sense of validation with a larger group of people that it's not just us, it's not just New Hampshire, it's not just Portsmouth. Um, and I also feel a bigger sense of responsibility. The more people that join our coalition and the more stories I hear, I feel more of a sense of responsibility of why I need to keep going, because if I stop and look at like everything we've gotten in my community, I'm really proud of that. And I'm really happy. And I feel like I could just be like, Hey, we have our, you know, the Air Force is cleaning it up. They're filtering our water. We're getting our health studies. We've had our blood testing like good, you know, like I could just, but I, I feel a bigger sense of like, like you said, that's not the norm in most communities. Like people are fighting tooth and nail for blood testing and health studies and filtration and, um, and the numbers of communities discovering this contamination continue to grow. So I just, I feel a bigger sense of responsibility to something bigger than just my community and trying to use the knowledge and the experience I have to move the needle even further. Like we have to stop exposing people to PFAS. We do. Um, and, and we have to study the people who have been exposed, and we have to make the people who have been exposed and are harmed, we have to make them whole again, you know? And so, um, so there's yeah, a lot more to do. And it's bigger than just here. Danielle DeVasto: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm what concerns do you have about PFAS contamination moving forward? Andrea Amico: Well, I, I am concerned that a, a few things I'm concerned that we can't even detect all of them, you know? So the current testing, we have lacks the ability to really know what's, you know, uh, when something is said to be PFAS free, or we're gonna, you know, stop using PFAS, like my antenna immediately goes up, like, what does that mean? Is that mean just 20 of 'em, you know, PFAS is a class of, I've heard 12,000, 15,000, the number keeps growing. So it concerns me that we can't even detect all of them or truly know what we're being exposed to. Um, it concerns me that we don't have any federal regulations at this point. We have health advisories. Um, I know the EPA is working on that, but, you know, we've known for a long time that PFAS are bad. And the fact that we don't have regulations yet to stop exposure is unacceptable. You know. Um, another challenge that I think people are facing, and one that I've spent a lot of effort on is the fact that health, the healthcare community doesn't know what PFAS are. And, um, I mean, even in my own community, people got blood testing done, and they bring the results to their doctor, and their doctor was like, I don't, I don't know what this is. I don't know how to read these blood tests. I don't, I don't know what to do with this information. And so, you know, that's another thing as more communities become exposed. I mean, one of the first things that pops into your mind when you learn you're exposed for at least for me, it was, is my family gonna be okay? Like, are they gonna get sick? Like, what do I need to do to monitor their health? Like, what should I do now? I can't undo the exposure. I can't take the PFAS out of their body any faster. So now what, and then you, you know, go to your doctor, which seems like a very appropriate step. And, and they're, they're just, you know, they're uneducated about it. And, um, and it's not, it's not their fault, the physician's fault, it's that they don't get environmental health training. They're not given guidance on PFAS. They don't even know Page 5 �how to order PFAS blood tests, you know? So, um, I think there's a lot more that needs to be done too, on the healthcare side of things. So like, you know, I think when, when you think about lead exposure in kids, like doctors know that that's not good, and there's a level in the blood that you wanna be below. And if a kid has lead, there's steps, you can take, you know, to help them. I hope someday with PFAS, we can be there too with the healthcare community. They're gonna know how to test for it in the blood. They're gonna know what levels are concerning. And if you have an elevated level, they're gonna know what tests to run and steps to take, to monitor your health and try to keep you healthy, you know? And we have, we've seen some progress on that for sure. But that's another area I think, need that needs a lot of work. Danielle DeVasto: Before we wrap up today, is there anything else that you would like to add that we haven't touched on today or anything that you'd like to go back to and say more about? Andrea Amico: Um, I just think, I think a few thoughts, or just, I'll kind of elaborate on a few things I've said, um, it's infuriating to me how far this PFAS issue has become, um, how far it's gotten out of hand, I should say in the sense that the chemical companies that made these chemicals decades ago knew, knew the harms of them. Um, they hid that information, and they continued to make these chemicals profit off of them. And, and frankly, they continued to do that today. And I just, I, I really struggle with that. You know, I really struggle that a company, uh, can do something like that to our entire society and yet face no real consequences. Um, it's crazy to me that the people that have been harmed by these chemicals the most are the ones that have to like stand up and fight tooth and nail, uh, while these chemicals were, these companies were just allowed to profit off of them. And I, I think, I think our government and our society should make a very strong example of these companies. And I think they need to be criminally held responsible, uh, for what they've done. And, um, and I hope that we'll, I'll hope I'll see that in my lifetime because they absolutely need to be held responsible. Um, I will also say that, you know, as a mom, like this has been like one of the most emotional things for me as a mother, you know? Um, I think as a mom, you, you try to do everything right. You know, when I was pregnant with my kids, I like took my prenatal vitamins. I went to all my appointments, um, when, when I was looking for daycares for them, like, I, you know, toward the daycares, I asked so many questions. Like, are you first aid certified? What's your curriculum? What's your teacher to child ratio? Never once. Did I question the quality of the water? Never once. Um, that's like something that just eats me up inside as a mom that like, unbeknownst to me, I sent my children to a daycare center that had highly contaminated water. Um, and the daycare didn't know either, you know, so even if I had asked the question, they wouldn't have known, but I can't tell you like what that's done to me emotionally, that I made a choice that put my kids in harm's way and that, you know, that's honestly, the reason why I fight so hard is for them, like, I can't undo, what's been done in the past, but like, if I can do everything I can to make this better in the future, I will. And if I can do anything, I can to prevent this from happening to another mom or family, like I will. Um, but it's really robbed me of a lot of my happiness. And it's really like taken a lot away from me as a person. Um, and that's like something I don't think people truly understand like emotionally and psychologically, what contamination does to a family or an individual or, uh, to a community. You know, it's just, it's just, Page 6 �it's just absolutely devastating. It feels like the ultimate betrayal, honestly. Um, and so, you know, I guess I just, you know, talking about the human side of things and, you know, it's easy to be like with, I advocated for this, and we got this and like, you know, I'm so proud of those things. Those things bring me a lot of pride and joy that I've been lucky to work with community members, and we've accomplished so much, but I, I just want people to know that it's not easy, and it's, it's life changing, and it's not for the better, so I guess that's what all, but I guess, and one other thing just like, what keeps me going though, and I'll just end with this is that we have seen progress, you know, a lot. Um, not only in awareness, like I told you, no one knew what PFAS were or even heard of 'em before. Like the amount of legislation that's passed the amount of resources. I mean, there was $10 billion put billion with a B put in the infrastructure bill to address PFAS. Like that's huge, you know, um, a lot of money, a lot of attention, a lot of awareness, a lot of science going on. Um, that's what gives me hope. And I just, um, wanna just keep moving forward. Like I said, just if we can prevent this from ever happening again, make a strong example of what's already happened and help the people who have been harmed like that. That's what we need to do. Danielle DeVasto: So I suspect that you can never, you mentioned before being, you know, you want to work to help communities and people feel whole again. Um, and I suspect that after the kind of, you know, you say betrayal that you felt and, um, the other, you know, just all the ramifications of finding out something like this happened to your community, that you can never maybe a hundred percent be as you were mm-hmm, but I'm just, I was curious for you or for your community, um, or people that you work with, what do you think could be done to make you feel as whole as possible? Like what, what would that look like for you? Andrea Amico: I think it's a few different things. So it's having like an established medical monitoring program that allows people to have access to healthcare, so they can monitor their health and catch any health effects early. Like right now we don't have that. It's very fragmented. Um, so having a system in place that will help people monitor their health, that they don't have to pay for that, you know, and if people do suffer health effects as a result of that, they of their contamination, they should be compensated. I think if people have lost property values, because they live in a, in an area that's contaminated and people don't wanna buy their house now, or live there, they should be compensated for that. Um, I think holding the polluters accountable, you know, like criminally, um, is so important, you know, like, no, one's no one's ever apologized. Like, no one's ever said, like, we're sorry, this happened to you. You know, like I think owning the mistakes of the past are so important. Like as much as I like to look forward to the future and like, how do we change this and make this better? Like that past is so important and acknowledging the mistakes, apologizing to the communities and like taking full accountability is also another part of it. Um, absolutely cleaning up the contamination. Like it shouldn't be left in our water in our soil and, and that's even trickier. Like it's everywhere now, it's in our food, it's in our plants, it's in our fish, it's in the air, it's in rainwater. Like, you know, so I think being whole, again means a lot of different things, but it comes down to like accountability, cleaning it up, um, and not putting the burden of paying for all of Page 7 �this stuff on the communities, you know? Um, and, and whether that's paying for filtration of their water or paying to go to see the doctor, 'cause they might have health issues or losing, you know, some folks like in New Hampshire, um, you know, their property values went down like that's their retirement, you know what I mean? Their home, the value of their home. Um, it's just, it touches on so many issues. And so I think there's a lot that needs to be done to make us whole, but those are just some that pop off pop to the top of my mind. Danielle DeVasto: Mm-hmm those would all be excellent places to start. Mm-hmm mm-hmm even if, maybe it's not, you know, ultimately you can't undo what, what has been done as you've said mm-hmm so, Andrea Amico: Yeah, and I, I just hope too, like the technology advances on how to get rid of PFAS, you know, 'cause even at this point we can't destroy it. We can't like even incineration there's concerns with it there. So it's like in some ways too, I'm so grateful in my community, they're filtering it from the water, and you know, they concentrate it and right now they send it to a landfill aligned landfill, and I'm grateful that it's leaving my community, but in the back of my mind, I'm like, we're just like taking this pollution and moving it somewhere else. Like we're making it somebody else's problem someday. And that seems wrong too. You know, it's like we don't even have, and then I wonder like then why do we approve new PFAS on the market? We can't even handle the PFAS. We have, we don't even have a good understanding of the health impacts of all the PFAS that are on the market. Like why would we add more into the environment? You know? Um, so again, I'm just hopeful with the resources and the awareness and the scientific interest in PFAS that we will see more advances on remediation, technology and destruction. Um, so we're not just like picking up the pollution and moving it around instead of actually getting rid of it. But again, all the reason we probably should have never made this stuff in the first place 'cause we can't get rid of it, you know? Um, so yeah. Danielle DeVasto: Well thank you Andrea for taking the time to share your story today. Thank you. Andrea Amico: Yeah. Thanks for talking with me. Page 8 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource The Living with PFAS interviews were recorded during 2021 to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a group of chemicals used to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. These products include clothing, furniture, adhesives, food packaging, and heat-resistant non-stick cooking surfaces. They are considered "forever chemicals" in that they do not break down in the environment, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and they build up in fish, wildlife, and in the human body. Studies have shown that exposure to large amounts of PFAS may affect growth and development, reproduction, thyroid function, the immune system, and may injure the liver. More research is needed to assess the full health effects of exposure to PFAS. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0036 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Amico, Andrea Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-02-10 Title A name given to the resource Andrea Amico, 2023 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Andrea Amico lives in Portsmouth, New Hampshire where she moved in 2007. In this interview, Andrea discusses her activism and advocacy about PFAS contamination after learning about the superfund site at the Pease Tradeport, where her husband worked and children attended daycare. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/91d644bf74a52844d9c16510d6a95e05.mp4 7b2b542d78ca331a97df008e0d95cb99 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/200569fc976d3b20857c55eafd28958e.pdf a25ffe5194e638dd9987fb1d36bb81ce PDF Text Text Living with PFAS Interviewer: Danielle DeVasto Interviewee: Karen Vorce | Date of Interview: 2023-01-13 Danielle DeVasto: I'm Dani DeVasto, and today, January 13, 2023, I have the pleasure of chatting with Karen Vorce. Karen, thanks so much for coming and talking with me today. Karen Vorce: Of course. Thanks for having me. Danielle DeVasto: Can you tell me about where you're from Karen, and where you currently live? Karen Vorce: Yes. Um, I- I live here in Kent County, Michigan, um, on the west side of Kent County in the City of Walker, and I also work here in Kent County as well, um, at the Michigan Department of Environment, Great Lakes, and Energy in the Remediation Redevelopment Division, and our district office is in downtown Grand Rapids, in Kent County. Danielle DeVasto: And how long have you been in Kent County, Karen? Karen Vorce: Let's see, I've lived in Kent County now for about six and a half years. Um, I actually moved to the west side of Michigan, from the Metro Detroit area in the summer of 2016. Danielle DeVasto: Thank you. Karen, can you tell me a story, please, about your experience with PFAS or with PFAS in your community? Karen Vorce: Sure, yes. Um, so it kinda has to deal with me working for the State of Michigan and the Department of Environment. Um, I started here at the state, um, in February 2017. I transferred over from doing environmental work in consulting, um, for a number of, uh, [LIP SMACK] the regulated community in the State of Michigan, for about seven years, and so I was really excited. Um, I applied for the job at the state, and I was able to get the job and, um, [LIP SMACK] always had wanted to work for- for the State of Michigan. And, [LIP SMACK] um, so I started in February 2017, and that was right when [NOTIFICATION SOUND] we were just starting to learn about Scotchgard, um, the fabric protectant, uh, waterproofing used by Wolverine Worldwide, um, at their tannery facility in downtown Rockford, which was, uh, had been long gone since about 2010. And, um, so yeah, I was assigned to cover as a project manager and geologist, uh, northern Kent County on my first day, and it just so happened that this Wolverine site was located also in northern Kent County, so it landed in my lap, and I remember about a month in, you know, hearing that the citizens' group had- had met with some of my colleagues and my supervisor in January, so just about a month before I started, and had brought concerns about the waste stream that would've left the tannery [SNIFFLE] containing PFAS, the Scotchgard material, and where that was disposed of at this, uh, property called the House Street Dump. And so I remember we started looking for any records on that, and then, um, [LIP SMACK] we had never sampled for PFAS at a site, an environmental site, [LIP SMACK] um, any sites of contamination in our district before that time. So this was definitely something new to- to Eagle in our divi- our district. Um, there were a couple other sites, military installations, that had been doing testing [SNIFFLE] in other places. So we kinda had to learn, myself and colleagues had to learn the process of collecting PFAS samples, how to do it properly, um, and so we started sampling some wells, um, just to the northeast of the House Street Dump because a Page 1 �well permit had come in. Someone wanted to install a new well and knowing that the concerns that were brought to us from the citizen group, um, you know, and obviously the local health department, we all kinda were like, well, let's sample those houses around where this permit is to make sure that there's not PFAS in there. Um, Wolverine agreed to do that sampling. Um, it was difficult to- to get liable parties to do that sampling at that time 'cause we didn't have regulated, um—PFAS compounds were not regulated. We had no criteria, so really no legal teeth, um, to request sampling, but, uh, you know, Wolverine did agree. Uh, we also requested onsite work to start doing onsite sampling at the House Street site, as well as at the tannery site where it was occurring—where the tanning operations happened, but, um, you know, that was in April 2017, and then, you know, those results, fortunately, um, they did- they did detect some PFAS, but at that time we thought, okay, it's- it wasn't above the EPA lifetime health advisory that we were using, uh, which was 70 parts per trillion for PFOA and PFOS, [LIP SMACK] and, um, so we thought, okay, well at least those folks are, you know, below the 70, 'cause we didn't really have any other levels or- or known values to go off of. So, uh, we said, okay, let's- let's shift Wolverine. We need you to keep—we need you to do something at the site. We gotta get groundwater samples at the site cause there's other houses around here, right, um, that, you know, could be impacted. So that was- that was going on, and lo and behold—so the sampling was done in April. In May, the end of May, we got a call from the Department of Defense, um, because they had done sampling of the Belmont Armory, [SNIFFLE] which is on the House Street site—not on the hou—is on House Street, just down the road from the House Street Dump. They sampled their private well for PFAS because the Department of Defense was sampling all their properties across the United States at that time for PFAS because of their training with, um, [LIP SMACK] the Aqua- Aqueous Film-Forming- Film-Forming Foam, the AFFF, that they've been using at a lot of their properties. Um, that was—AFFF was not used at the Belmont Armory. It used to be a church, and then they used it for, like, band practice. So, um, when they got a hit in their well of, I believe it was 120 parts per trillion for PFOA and PFOS, um, we got that result, and we were, like, look, this- this is what, you know, we're worried about Wolverine. This is why we've been asking you to do this. We need you to sample wells now, like we know there's a problem. You can't just be focusing on the- on the site, we need to sample residential wells. And so that summer of 2017, it's kind of a blur now, but that's when, um, you know, especially as a new state employee, it was pretty intense going out to the neighborhood, um, with this emerging contaminant telling people, hey, we wanna sample your well, it may or may not be impacted with this PFAS stuff that's at this dump, that's down the street from your house, that's covered in trees, that you may not have known was there. [DEEP BREATH] Um, you know, going door to door, just having those- those conversations with people and- and not knowing in the beginning, just thinking, oh, hopefully, you know, then maybe this won't be that bad, maybe- maybe their wells are at a good depth, and it won't be a problem. I do remember the first house besides the- the homes to the northeast. Once we started going down House Street, the first door I knocked on, um, who you've probably interviewed, was Sandy Linstelz' door. She lived right across the street from House Street, and, um, yeah, I remember meeting her and just from the moment I met her, she was just such a Page 2 �nice lady, and, um, she was just so nice. She said, "Oh yeah, come on in, take a sample, do whatever you gotta do," and you know, we sampled. I think there was about 46 houses during that- that initial sampling in May 2017, or June. It was June by that time, 2017. And I still remember, uh, being in the office and getting the email results, uh, coming in of the lab, the lab sampling results, and, um, just seeing, you know, those results coming of some of those houses and the tens of thousands of parts per trillion in their drinking water well, and it really was at that moment I realized, you know, even being new to the state, sensing that something just was really wrong, this is not obviously good. Um, it's way above that 70 parts per trillion, and I'm not a toxicologist, I'm geologist, but just seeing that number I knew that's obviously not something that is good for people to be drinking, or safe. Um, and so, yeah, then I remember that afternoon, at that time my supervisor and the health department took—had to take those results and go to- go to people's houses and- and tell them right away [DEEP BREATH] what their results were. Um, yeah, so I can keep going on this story. I can go up to where we are current day, um, [LAUGHTER] if- if you wanted, um, but, yeah, that's kind of just going back to those early days. Um, just the panic that's involved with projects like this coming from a regulatory standpoint. Um, I- I think of other states, especially, or really around the world, anywhere, any- any geographic location or government, um, [LIP SMACK] where, you know, they haven't started testing for PFAS, um, they haven't started looking for it. Um, you know, I- I just want people to learn from Michigan, and- and learn from what we've experienced and had to go through to kinda learn how to look for it and address it because, um, people will find it. We're gonna keep finding it, um, but they need to start looking sooner rather than later, and I'm sure the residents who have been impacted here in Michigan, at all of our PFAS sites, not even just here in Kent County, would echo that the sooner that you can let people know that they're drinking something they're not supposed to be drinking, the better, um, because, you know, now we're learning more about it. There's kind of no more excuses that people can have. I mean, it's in- it's in the everyday CNN and all the publications are talking about PFAS. Everyone's talking about PFAS now. Um, we know it's an issue. We have more science, more health studies to document even lower levels, so our levels are now below 70 parts per trillion here in Michigan, for a number of compounds. Um, and EPA has since updated that 70 parts per trillion right to below one parts per trillion for PFOA or PFOS. Each of those are below one parts per trillion now. Um, so obviously these are harmful chemicals at very low concentrations. Um, and I think the more people realize how we're exposed to those every day, not just in our drinking water, through our everyday commerce goods, through potentially touching things that could be contaminated, dirt, soil, um, couches, you know, laying around on couches that are Scotchgarded, um, uh, cosmetics, you know, different, uh, adhesives, different things we're breathing in, even the dust particles that we're ingesting, you know, it's- it's once you start realizing kind of how ubiquitous and how much PFAS is a part of our, unfortunately, society now, it really goes to show the- the urgency and the need that is needed to- to keep addressing PFAS [SNIFFLE] 'cause the more we find out, it just seems like the more we're realizing that they're not good for us. I mean, they do their job good [CHUCKLE] on the- on the waterproofing and, um, Page 3 �the chemistry end. Yes, they're a modern marvel and, um, they do their job, but obviously they weren't made to be inside of us. Danielle DeVasto: Yeah. Right. Um, I'm wondering if you might, if you're willing to say more about your experience with PFAS from that kind of regulatory work perspective. You've kind of hinted that, you know, you're not a toxicologist, you're a geologist, and so I guess I'm just curious if you have anything else that you might say about how PFAS has kind of been a part of your work experience and- and- and impacting that. Karen Vorce: Yeah. So, um, yeah, P—un- understanding, we- I mean, we've just been like sponges soaking up the data over the last six years now, um, at this site and at others. You know, we have over 240, uh, PFAS sites now in the State of Michigan, identified. Those are locations where we have groundwater above our cleanup standards. [SNIFFLE] We have samples, um, showing that the groundwater's contaminated above that. So we have at least 240. I'm sure there's plenty more out there, we just haven't found yet. Um, I- I think Wolverine's site here in northern Kent County, it does span approximately 25 square miles of groundwater contamination. It is, I'm pretty sure the largest, um, area of contamination that we have found to date, and I'm—hopefully it stays that way. Uh, I [CHUCKLE] don't wanna find any more like this, especially such high concentrations in private drinking water wells. I mean, we have found, um, concentrations as high as 100,000 parts per trillion in private drinking water wells, um, which is just pretty- pretty insane to say out loud, um, that to date from just the various conferences, the various interactions that I've had, that I've heard others having, I haven't heard of anyone having a higher result than that 100,000 parts per trillion in a drinking water well. I've heard of it in environmental wells at sites. You know, we have 1,000,000 parts per trillion in groundwater at the tannery site, [SNIFFLE] but for someone to actually be drinking that, um, is pretty astounding and, um, you know, what we've learned about the contaminant fate and transport of PFAS, especially in this area, um, has really helped us be able to address PFAS at other sites faster, uh, get a better understanding because in the beginning, there's no way when this first started, um, that- that we knew this contaminant plume would encompass 25 square miles. Like, we were thinking, oh, you know, we have, uh, chlorinated-solvent plumes, we have petroleum, you know, gasoline-parameter plumes. We're used to dealing with contamination. That's what we do here in my division. So I would always tell people, you don't wanna see me 'cause when we show up, that means you have contamination, right, [LAUGHTER] um, unfortunately. So it's—we- we're used to it, like, okay, we'll start with these close houses and that was really hard for me personally, when this started in gaining, really having to gain the trust back of the public for- for the agency, you know, before I even, sometimes, you know, before I was born, obviously when this dumping occurred, but before I even worked at Eagle, because, um, you know, we—in the beginning of this, we were handling it like every other site we handled today, not knowing that PFAS traveled as far as it could, it's so mobile. In the complex geology that we're dealing with here in northern Kent, um, the glacial geology, and just a lot of the sand and gravel that just acted as a beautiful, unfortunately conduit for PFAS to travel long distances. You know, in the beginning, if- if what we know now, yes, I—we would've Page 4 �been expanding those sampling areas from the get-go, making them bigger. But in the beginning we— when we were taking this, okay, you start on site and then you step out and then you step out more, and then what happened was, you know, word started going around and then people were mad that, you know, well, why isn't the state or the health department coming to tell us about this? Why am I finding out from my neighbors? Or, you know, there were law firms going around, right, knocking on people's doors, and that really was difficult personally, um, for me to deal with, with people having that anger. You know, it felt very personal to me, to the department, that we weren't doing our jobs, when at the time we thought we were doing our jobs based on how other contaminants behave, based on other projects. We had never, um, dealt with anything like this. So we- I tried to take that and not- and not take it personally 'cause I knew these people, you know, these residents were not mad at Karen Vorce, they- they were mad at the situation that- that this is- that this has happened and that they have been unknowingly drinking PFAS and subjecting their families and their children and- and things to this. And so taking that, um, not taking things personally, but wanting to be an agent of change and an agent of help, to help the residents was what I started to focus on and really empathizing with them and- and- and putting myself in their shoes because yes, I was experiencing my own emotional and psychological issues with dealing with this PFAS and being a first, you know, "emergency responder" to this, which has its own types of kind of stress, but, you know, I—it was nothing compared to what people who were exposed to this and drinking it were having to deal with, and I just kept reminding myself of that. Um, and so what we learned, I think one of the main takeaways from our Wolv—as a regulator from- from Wolverine, a) transparency is extremely important to everyone, um, especially the folks who are—may or may not be impacted. So making sure you're, um, transparent and honest, even if you don't know the answers, saying you don't know the answers and that, you know, this is what we're trying to do. B) Having a robust communication plan with how you're going to reach out to residents, how you're going to have enough people to go door to door to let people know, um, using local municipalities, uh, email blasts, using different ways to reach people through social media, through door hangers, through mailers, multiple ways, 'cause some people like their information different ways, but really making sure—you're gonna think you're overcommunicating, but you're—but to some people you're still not communicating enough. So until you feel like you're communicating too much, you're not communicating enough when it comes to sites like this. Um, so that was something we learned 'cause we really had to up—the state really ups their game, if you will, on communication and public outreach based on PFAS. It was definitely lacking, um, before this. [SNIFFLE] The—and th- the residents of this area helped facilitate that change 'cause they- they were the ones who were able to point it out to, I think the agency, to say, "Hey, you know, I'm mad that I found out from my neighbor, or I found out from someone knocking on my door,and I didn't find out from the state," like, how can we make sure this doesn't happen again? Okay. So that was kind of a humbling and important learning aspect. Um, another one, especially when we're dealing with emerging contaminants and I kind of, so I said, um, [LIP SMACK] communication is pooling your resources. So I understand not every state has the same resources as Michigan, uh, every- every environmental, you know, agency, but Page 5 �really reaching out to neighboring states or reaching out to other divisions or even the federal government, putting your head in the sand and saying, you don't have the people to address the problem isn't going to solve the problem. You need to be vocal that you don't have enough resources, that you are concerned. That's how you get funding and that's how you get people involved, and you get legislator— legislative change, and you get more funding in state budgets, and so being- not being afraid to be vocal about that, to show your "vulnerabilities," as a state agency, I think a lot of agencies are afraid to do that 'cause they don't wanna look like they can't do their job, right. And you don't wanna scare people, like, oh no, my- my state agency isn't equipped to handle this. Well, no we didn't—of course not, like we didn't know about PFAS and no one really expects that 25 square miles of somewhere is going to be impacted. So, you know, you- you- you plan for the worst and hope for the best, but we really need to be—PFAS showed us we need to be prepared for things like this and don't be afraid to ask for help, and don't act like you know all the answers 'cause you're—it's gonna be pretty obvious that you don't. So we are- we tried to be pretty humble and open and honest in the beginning in north Kent, and I think that went a long way with the residents as well. Um, so those are kind of my three main, um, I guess suggestions to other regulators. And you know, we learned—we had to change a paradigm, our thinking of how we address sites of contamination, where before, and this was some of the frustration in the beginning that residents had, they were like, "Well, why are you starting on the source property with groundwater sampling and then stepping out, like, why aren't you out sampling all of the wells?" And so we had to explain, well, normally in order to know where to sample the wells, we need to know, like, groundwater flow at the site, and we need to know what the source is and, like, what the local geology is, so then we can, like, better pinpoint, you know where to sample and understand it. And then—but then in the public side and in some cases depending on the concentrations, you kinda had to go ahead of that, and you can't wait for thatthat HydroGeo investigation to happen. You have to go to the- to the receptors now and sample, and you may have to sample more than you thought you would, or you may- you may over-sample, but, hey, at least you're sampling. I'd rather over-sample than not sample enough and- and do it in a timely manner. So there definitely is an expectation, um, that you prioritize the drinking water response over the science or the academic or the hydrogeologic, which in some cases is difficult because we need the hydrogeology to tell us where it's going and where to sample, so you have to use your best professional judgment, you have to use your—the tools you have, the digital resources, best inferred groundwater direction, right, yet you gotta kinda think on your feet and- and- and do things that way. So that was obviously difficult to figure out in the beginning as you're going through this. Um, we had, in the beginning of this, um, we did call in our incident managers that we have here, our environmental, um, emergency incident managers, that we have in our Remediation and Redevelopment Division here at Eagle. So each district of RRD, Remediation and Redevelopment Division, um, has an incident manager. They all came from across the state [CLICK SOUND] to north Kent, when this started blowing up in 2017, um, to help us because this was getting to be so big and so large, and there were so many things we needed help. I- it was just me and one other colleague and my supervisor trying to field all these calls and address all these things, so Page 6 �we needed help. So we pulled in, we were able to pull in extra resources. Um, making sure you have open communication between the local, state, and federal health agencies was really crucial and the local—or the state and federal environmental agencies. So everybody was kind of at the table and everyone kinda had their lane, if you will. We started figuring out, okay, Eagle, this is your job to- to figure out where the contamination is, identify wells that need to be sampled, get the contractors out there, oversee Wolverine doing the work, um, make sure it's being done right, QAQC stuff. And then it was like, okay, health departments, your job is getting residents the results, explaining what the results mean, telling them do they need to filter, do they not need a filter? Figuring all that out was a whole thing, too, in the beginning when this was happening and who's communicating what, right. Um, that was crucial, um, to make sure that we had the right people communicating the information, who were the toxicologists epidemiologists, the health folks. Um, and- and then we were staying in our lane doing our thing and—but we were all working together, um, on the same goal. Um, so that was another huge aspect, 'cause at the end of the day, we all kinda have our- our little ex—areas of expertise, and it is tempting to kinda go out and try to boss around other agencies, but- but at the end of the day, you kinda just all start working together and get over that tur—like, this is my turf, no, this is my turf, and you just start working for your citizens, that are basically your bosses. Um, [CHUCKLE] that's what—who I work for, right, the taxpayers. So, um, that was a learning experience, and, um, you know, now- now I- I- I know who to contact if- if I have issues, you know, the health—local and state health were, like, you know, really close and EPA. Like, we're kind of all allies now from having gone through this, um, helping each other. It's not a local versus state versus federal. It's not us versus them. That can hap—I- I don't know if the general public knows that, but that- that can happen, you know, Eagles get in the way, um, you know, like, oh, the state has this handled, we don't need the fed help, or, you know, local people will be like, "Oh, the local county has us. We don't need the state's help," you know, so kinda getting in over that, those- those, um, those, you know, can- can be a humbling [CHUCKLE] experience for- for other, I'm sure states and both, they experienced similar things. Um, but I would say, you know- you know, this was, this has been—I- I call this my baby, my- my site, since I started at the state. I'm still heavily involved. I—we did hire a new, you know, project, uh, project manager [SNIFFLE] since I've transitioned into district supervisor work, um, but, you know, people from the beginning told me this is a once in a career type of issue or- or site or- or experience. When I first started, I didn't really realize that. I thought, Oh, this is- this is its normal to work, you know, have- have- have- have public meetings four nights a week and work till nine at night, and, you know, start the day again at seven a.m., and be doing all this crazy stuff and- and- and be suing multibillion dollar companies and having, you know, mediation and- and drafting consent decrees, and, well, no, that's not normal, but, um, you know, I wouldn't trade it for anything. I- I do believe, um, that God had me come to west Michigan, for a reason, um, that I was given north Kent, for a reason. I felt very underqualified in the beginning, uh, you know, a new PM, a newbie, um, kinda had that imposter syndrome, but as- as time went on, I realized that, hey, you know, I have a whole department, I have colleagues, it's not just me doing this, it's us, it's a team, everyone has their part, and I just really started focusing on the Page 7 �people and the outreach and the empathy and caring for, you know, the residents. Um, and I think at the end, you know, just focusing on your strengths, you don't need to know everything as a regulator. You have resources. You have people and experts to rely on. That was also a, um, [SNIFFLE] something I learned early on in this project. Danielle DeVasto: What a way to start, huh? Karen Vorce: Yes. [LAUGHTER] Danielle DeVasto: It's really that- that, like, tested by fire and— Karen Vorce: Yes. Danielle DeVasto: —hopefully it is truly a once-in-a-career situation. Karen Vorce: Yes, I hope so. Danielle DeVasto: Um, maybe looking forward then, what kinds of concerns do you have about PFAS contamination, moving forward? Karen Vorce: Yeah. Um, definitely I have concerns. Um, you know, as- as a mother now, when I started this project, I wasn't a mom, and, you know, went through this and- and now I- I have a one and a half year old, um, so I can empathize, uh, a lot better, too, with- with folks who had children who have been affected by contamination, you know, imagining my son drinking it or- or having been nursed on, you know if the mother was ingesting it- it tran- transmisses through- through breast milk and when the baby's developing and- and things like that. So I really worry. I really am just concerned, you know, especially always thinking ahead to the next generation, how can we reduce exposure to them? Um, and I'm really excited to see some states now, um, are banning certain products with PFAS, certain food- food packaging, um, you know, certain—I- I swear I read somewhere certain consumer goods won't be— clothing won't be allowed to have PFAS in it with—and something in New York City, I have to dig into that more. Um, you know, the- the more we can eliminate when we really don't need it, if we really don't need something to be waterproof or to have specifically these compounds, these PFAS compounds in it, let's eliminate it. Like we don't need it in dental floss. I'm pretty sure I can still use dental floss without having PFAS in it. I'll be fine with it, even if it's a little bit stickier, I don't know. [CHUCKLE] Like, um, you know, kind of just- just re-thinking our- our, um, 'cause- 'cause I understand, the manufacturers play their part, right. The- the- the capitalistic selling of things, it- it all plays its part, but at the end of the day, consumers have power, too. We have a lot of power, um, as- as consumers, and we need to be vocal with our dollars and what companies we're supporting and with our- with our legislators of what kind of legislation we wanna see in our states to foster positive change of prohibiting, you know, these products from coming into our state that eventually is gonna end up in our landfill, right, um, and end up in our environment. So I'm really excited to see the legislation and policies starting to get put in place little by little. Um, I know it'll be a long challenge, but, um, that- that is kind of a positive light. In- in the more health studies that we have done right now, there is a multi-site health- PFAS health study happening in Michigan, north Kent's involved. There's a- another site in south, uh, southwest Michigan, involved, um, and other state—other sites across the country in that as well to better understand the health, um, and document the health Page 8 �effects of exposure to PFAS and at what levels, what may you see certain adverse effects of, you know, anything from cancer to hi- high cholesterol to, um, preeclampsia, uh, things- things of those nature. So really getting a better understanding of that, I think is crucial, too, so, um, we can just spread that knowledge, so people can make informed decisions. So we know now Teflon pans with PFOA and others, some other PFAS compounds, not a good idea. So let's let consumers know that, so they can then use stainless steel or alum— you know, what different types of pans. Yes, it may not be as great for eggs, but, you know, you can- you can deal with a little bit of eggs sticking to your pan if you don't wanna eat PFAS, right? Um, you know, letting people make—being informed to make decisions about how much—at least having some control over how much PFAS they're being exposed to. I just bought a new couch for the first time 'cause I've been using hand-me-downs from family for a number of years. First question, is this Scotchgarded? Like, please, I do not wanna buy a couch that has Scotchgard or any stain-resistant treatment on it. No, it wasn't. Oh, and it's filled with recycled, um, [LIP SMACK] pieces of couches that didn't work or, you know, the filling from other—like it's recycled material on the inside. So that's even better. Cool. Okay. So making, like, decisions like that to- to eliminate, you know, your furniture, sheets, you know, clothes that really don't need to be waterproof, you know, do you really need GORE-TEX or, you know, that water repellency on those. Little decisions like that, um, but also making sure your representatives in your, um, states, your federal representatives, understand that you want, um, policy and laws that protect citizens from exposure to these that make- make us aware when things— when PFAS is in- in products. Like, trying to know all the different trade names is really difficult. I'll even try to read labels, and I'm like, I can't even tell if this is a PFAS, like, what is this, I don't know. So having better labeling, you know, there- there's things that can be done that I think, um, will start happening that are going to at least make things a little bit better for the next generation, um, so we can at least learn something from- from all of this, right? That's- that's kind of what we need to do as our responsibility, um, with- with having this knowledge. [SNIFFLE] Danielle DeVasto: And gives concrete things that we can do, instead of— Karen Vorce: Yes. Danielle DeVasto: —you know, as you pointed out, sometimes this is pretty overwhelming and— Karen Vorce: Mm-hmm. Danielle DeVasto: —widespread, far more complicated than we imagine, but— Karen Vorce: Yes. Little things we can- we can- we can try to do to make change. [SNIFFLE] Danielle DeVasto: So before we wrap up, Karen, is there anything else that you'd like to add that we haven't touched on today or anything you'd like to go back to and say more about? Karen Vorce: Hmm. I'm sure there is. I could definitely talk all day [LAUGHTER] about- about PFAS and north Kent, and just the experience and, um, and, uh, you know, the good and the bad 'cause as- as much, you know, sadness and, um, obviously harm that this contamination, um, has caused the residents in Kent County. [SNIFFLE] Um, you know, I don't- I don't let that over-shadow the, um, the good that's actually come out of this, in that I've met a lot of people that I never would've met, friendships have been Page 9 �made, um, being able to- to feel at the end of the day that you're making a difference, um, and- and helping people, um, and- and passing that on to others. It- it really feels like the citizens here have also, you know, they've really stepped up to be, like, leaders in- in this fight against PFAS, um, to- to talk to other states, to other affected communities, and seeing that, um, just has been really inspiring as well, just- just people knowing, like, you don't have to be in a position of authority. You don't have to just—you don't have to be working for an agency or- or whatever to- to be teaching people about PFAS or about your experience. Like, anyone can- can talk to people, you know, just even it—it doesn't matter what your day job is, right. If- if you've, you know, been ex—if you've been exposed to PFAS and especially folks in Kent County who have been through this, um, you know, I think it's invaluable for them to kinda reach out and- and be there for- for the other people who are going through this, um, in other communities here in Michigan. So that's- that's been pretty amazing to see, [SNIFFLE] um, to see that happen as well. Um, and I think, you know, it's always important for- for us to have our lessons learned, to learn from them, to admit when- when things could have been done differently, you know, even- even industry, right? We had industry standards and practices back in the 1940s, and '50s, that were vastly different than what we have today, right, and so just, you know, admitting that, understanding that, and trying to address that. It's- it's- it's not necessarily in all cases, like, I gotcha, like, ooh, I'm gonna- I'm gonna get those- those evil corporations, right? It- it's about, okay, I understand, I totally get it. Things were different back in the day, right, but if we know things were different, and we know there was contamination in our waste streams, companies do have—should be thinking about their historic operations and where there could be other "House Street Dumps." I know—you know, anyone listening to this to who may be a CEO of a company, you know, [CHUCKLE] or know a CEO who runs a company and- and, you know, you really need to look at- look at your company and your heart to say, hey, are- are there skeletons in the closet that I need to address, because you're gonna be living with that for the rest of your life, knowing that you ignored something and potentially hundreds of people have been impacted because of that. So that's also kind of a warning [CHUCKLE] that I'll give- give to folks, um, to, hey, just- just be- just be honest. We're- we're not dumb. People who aren't in your company, we can see through things. We- we know, and the more proactive you're going to be, the more people are gonna wanna work with you, the more collaboration you're gonna get, and, you know, you could really turn this into something that, um, doesn't have to be, you know, a fight, um, to get things done. So that- that's something I'll- I'll just throw out there as well. Danielle DeVasto: I mean, throughout the—this conversation, that theme of relationship seems to kinda— Karen Vorce: Mmm. Danielle DeVasto: —keep cropping up in your story in different ways, the different kinds of relationships that you can or have, or could build— Karen Vorce: Yep. Danielle DeVasto: —seems really important. Karen Vorce: Definitely. That's a good point. [CHUCKLE] Page 10 �Danielle DeVasto: Well, thank you so much, Karen, for taking the time to share your story today. Karen Vorce: Yeah, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. And thanks for doing this project. Page 11 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource The Living with PFAS interviews were recorded during 2021 to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a group of chemicals used to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. These products include clothing, furniture, adhesives, food packaging, and heat-resistant non-stick cooking surfaces. They are considered "forever chemicals" in that they do not break down in the environment, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and they build up in fish, wildlife, and in the human body. Studies have shown that exposure to large amounts of PFAS may affect growth and development, reproduction, thyroid function, the immune system, and may injure the liver. More research is needed to assess the full health effects of exposure to PFAS. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0035 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Vorce, Karen Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-01-13 Title A name given to the resource Karen Vorce, 2022 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Karen Vorce is a geologist who lives in Walker, Michigan and works for the Michigan Department of Environment, Great Lakes, and Energy in the Remediation Redevelopment Division. In this interview, Karen discusses her work with PFAS contamination sites in Kent County, as well as how her concern over PFAS have impacted her family and personal decisions. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/25c314b9654a34509ff2c59a7c874a46.mp4 3a79e52cea8d4d954d85b9f2b7d67179 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6406ae1b9118fd892e2c0cb2d2a8d8df.pdf a8682d79f16cd6d4b12aaaa5df014196 PDF Text Text Living with PFAS Interviewer: Danielle DeVasto Interviewee: Alan Eberlein Date of Interview: 2022-11-29 Danielle DeVasto: I'm Dani DeVasto, and today, November 29, 2022, I have the pleasure of chatting [BANG SOUND] with Al Eberlein. Hi, Al. Al Eberlein: Hello. Danielle DeVasto: Thank you for having me over to your house today. Um, Al, can you tell me where you're from, [CLICK SOUND] and, um, let's start with that. Where are you from? Al Eberlein: Right here in Rockford, born and raised. Danielle DeVasto: All right. So you've been here a long time. Al Eberlein: Yep. I grew up as a child on Myers Lake and went to Rockford Public Schools and then resided within a couple miles of town, or in town, my entire life. Danielle DeVasto: That's truly something. As someone who's moved around a lot, I wish that I could— Al Eberlein: Which is more the norm now than not. Danielle DeVasto: Unfortunately, yeah. Um, Al, would you tell me a story about your experience with PFAS or with PFAS in your community, please? Al Eberlein: Well, it's a funny thing because it's an unfolding story, right? And I lived through it, not knowing I was living through it for many years. Like I said, uh, went to Rockford schools, went to the junior high school and the high school here. Um, lived around, uh, Rockford, uh, for a number of years. Um, uh, my first home was a- a mobile homesite, uh, at Algoma Estates, [CLEARING THROAT] which I lived with several years after I was married in 1980, with my wife, Lori, and, um, as we were discussing earlier, uh, lo and behold in future years, I found out—and we always knew that it was something not quite right about the water there, uh, but we were close to the 12-mile dump because Algoma's off of 13 mile, and the 12-mile dump was, you know, backed up to that. And, um, [LIP SMACK] so I'm sure that we were probably drinking water that wasn't too great then. And, uh, we had our, uh, first child, um, there, uh, when we lived in Algoma Estates, Matthew, uh, in 1982. And, um, it was a- it was, um, [LIP SMACK] a strange birth. Matthew was, uh, born with what they described as immature lung- lung syndrome that you nor- normally don't experience unless a child is, like, two months early. His lungs were that bad or worse, but Matthew was full term. He was almost eight-pound baby, and they said they never had seen that before. Um, so, consequently, he almost died. Um, he was in neonatal unit in Grand Rapids, for two weeks and, um, he did pink up right away. For hours and hours after he was born, he was purple and, uh, he pulled out of it miraculously, um, [LIP SMACK] but consequently, uh, it left him with a lot of problems. He had episodes of schizophrenia, uh, odd, uh, feelings in his body, like his spirit was half out of his body. Um, uh, we tried some therapy with, uh, Wellbutrin and, um, [NOISE] Ritalin to try to help him, uh, control his thoughts, but they didn't work for him. Um, so anyhow, uh, they barely got him—kept him mainstream through, uh, grade school, and once he was junior high, and after, he ended up in special ed and unfortunately kids like Matthew, they fall through the cracks. They're not bad enough to be, you know, Page 1 �sent off to Kenosha, or something, but they're—they try to mainstream 'em, and they have a couple hours in special ed and put 'em in a regular class, and they're, you know, how children can be cruel and- and it was a terrible experience. Um, he was a very melancholy child and, uh—because by the time he got to high school, uh, he started self-medicating with alcohol, dropped outta school, and we didn't even keep alcohol in our house, but he sought out his own medication. And, um, consequently, he died at 24 years old, uh, from alcoholism. Well, like I say, he was born in, uh, '82. In 1986, we tried again for a child, uh, Christopher. And so we moved back into town in—before he was born— Danielle DeVasto: Into Rockford? Al Eberlein: — into Rockford, on Lewis Street, on the Wolverine plat, north of town, in an older home, and so that my wife could afford to stay home with the baby. And so consequently, Christopher was born a little early, not a lot, a little, and he was rather small birth weight, he's—but not terrible. He was about six pounds, and they thought he was normal at the- uh, at the moment he was born, but it quickly became apparent that he was not thriving, and they couldn't figure it out. Finally, after about a month or so, a geneticist in Grand Rapids, said, "Um, [CLICK SOUND] I can't tell you what's wrong with your son, but I'm heavily suspicioning that there's something wrong with him, genetically. Um, I think you should go to Chicago, uh, Children's Hospital." So we took Christopher down there five different times, and they did studies, and actually they did workups on Christopher. Uh, he's actually in a journal someplace. They took, uh, pictures of him, and he was very unusual and the best determination that they could come up with is they said, "Well, he sort of like neonatal renoleukodystrophy," and I go, what in the world is that? And they said, "Well, that's [CLICK SOUND] where the protozoa in the cell structure is low, and the ones that are there are deformed." So what does that mean? Well, the body does not have a good capability of dealing with heavy metals, like, uh, copper and so forth. And so as the months went by, all this kinda built up in his brain and damaged his brain. He lost his eyesight and, uh, he didn't thrive. He didn't get nutrition out of food well, and, um, they said he would only live two months, but, um, we loved him and took care of him, ended up having to feed him with a stomach tube, and we kept him alive for two years and two months, and gave him the best life that we could give him. But I remember them saying this towards the end of- of the time that we went to Chicago, at the Children's Hospital, and they said, "You know, there's several different kinds," that they had, uh, described at the time of- of that disease, but they said, "Christopher's really not like any of them, he's like his own thing." There again, both with Matthew and with Christopher, nothing remotely like this in my wife's family history, our family history. This was just crazy stuff out of the blue. So [SIGH] my daughter, Sarah, was born in 1992, and, uh, she was, uh, it seemed to be a normal pregnancy, and then all of a sudden my wife started having trouble and, uh, Sarah came, uh, two months and two weeks early. And, um, anyhow, trying to keep a long story shorter, [CHUCKLE] um, we, uh, you know, we, of course we were worried about these other things and, um, but I had a month old. They said, "Well, you know," they- they were worried about the Christopher disease, the neonatal renoleukodystrophy, but it- it didn't seem to, uh, manifest itself. And we don't know why she was born early. We don't know why she was red when she came out, but, um, she seems to be doing better Page 2 �now. So Sarah grew into a nice, healthy, young lady and, um, she got married at 21, and shortly thereafter, um, she got pregnant for my granddaughter. Well, my granddaughter's, uh, pregnancy seemed to be normal, and, um, along about six or seven months pregnant, my daughter said, "Dad," she goes, "Something's wrong. I'm just profoundly tired." And of course they checked out her iron and all the-, you know, the normal things, and, "We can't find anything wrong and your blood pressure's okay, you know, we just, you know, probably some people just get more tired than others, you know, during." She goes, "But dad," she says, "They're not listening to me. This is profound. I can hardly keep my eyes open." Lo and behold, the day that her water broke, and she went in for labor, she started hemorrhaging, and I mean, profuse blood loss. And she actually almost died twice, and they were pumping fluids into her, plasma, trying to keep her alive. And, uh, she basically died twice, and it was, uh, a rare form of, uh, HELLP syndrome. There again, no sign of it, neither side of the family. And, um, [CLICK SOUND] she actually saw her gr—, uh, deceased grandfather in the room, smiling at her, waiting for her to come to heaven with her- with him, but they pulled her through. And by-by golly, they saved my granddaughter, and they said for that to happen right at birth, it's almost very unlikely that both of 'em were to live.They said usually if you can save one or the other, [CHIME SOUND] you've done—you've had a good day, and they saved them both. My daughter was very weak. It took her over a year to get back on her feet. Uh, psychologically it did something to her because she still gets tired. I think it's mental. I think it's mentally tired. Um, it- it- it really goes deep into you. So anyhow, my granddaughter, we thought she was perfect, you know, beautiful little girl, and, um, went in for a two-month checkup, and they says, "You need to see a specialist. Something is wrong with her." And you know, here, my first son, second son, my daughter, and now my granddaughter, oh, what's wrong? "Well, we think she's not seeing good, and you need to see a specialist." Well, unfortunately my son-in-law was in the Navy, and he said, "Well, we're about ready to move." And my daughter, he was gonna deploy outta San Diego, and my daughter was coming back here with my granddaughter, uh, while he deployed for six months. [SNEEZE] Well, God bless Helen DeVos Hospital because they got down to brass tacks and figured it out quite quickly. What they missed is that she had cataracts in her eyes, but they weren't normal, I say_ normal cataracts that are more visible on the outside of the eye. These were deep with inside the eye. And they said it was rather unusual. And, uh, so they operated on her, got the cataracts out, and here she's just a lit—by this time, I think Natalie was five months old, and, it's so hard to have, when children to have to have operations right off the bat, it's—and she, you know, suffered through that. And then they, [CLEAR THROAT] she had these really thick glasses that we tried to put on her, and, um, also we had to force contacts into her eyes so that she could have enough imagery, you know, but still be fuzzy, but that she could—her mind could develop. And, um, that got actually very arduous 'cause by six, seven months old, she could fight back, and I actually had to leave the house because she would scream and fight not to have those contacts forced in her eyes. Well, they can't put lenses in a little baby's eyes right away, 'cause the eyes are too small. And they said, "We would like to wait at least till six, five, six years old." [NOTIFICATION SOUND] Excuse me, we will delay that message. Page 3 �Danielle DeVasto: Would you like me to pause? Al Eberlein: That's uh, that was my daughter. [LAUGHTER] She must have knew I was talking about her. Danielle DeVasto: She must have felt it. [LAUGHTER] Al Eberlein: So consequently uh, they—we had to wait till she was over two years old to put lenses in. So my beautiful little granddaughter, so she ended up having six surgeries all together. And they put the lenses in finally, and oh, what a joyous day that was, and the next day. All of a sudden, my granddaughter discovered going outside and said, "Oh, grandpa, look at the clouds," and she could see relatively clearly for the first time. And- and uh, we were so happy and overjoyed for her after all the torment she went through, and we could see her starting to regress. We could see her starting to act like she did before, when she didn't see good and straining her eyes. And so we called up and said, "Well, you better bring her back in." And so we took her back in and, um, they said, "Oh, we got bad news. Her eyes are rejecting the implants." And I said, I thought you said this, eyes, that this material- material you use, that the body doesn't reject, and they says, "For some reason, hers is." So they had to take the- the, uh, implanted lenses back out. And that was one of the worst days of my life, right up there with my two sons dying. And sh—I wheeled her out to the car, and she balled all the way out going, "Grandpa, I can't see, I can't see." And I go, oh honey, I says, we're gonna fix it, hoping that we could. Well, we—the doctors had a form online just to see if any other eye doctor in the nation, and even other countries, had any suggestions because Helen DeVos had run out of ideas, and that's a bad place to be. So we had everybody praying. [LIP SMACK] One man, I'd like to meet him someday, I'd like to know who he was, one man responded, and he said, "I had a- an adult patient once that had that exact thing happen." And this was one particular, really strong steroid, he says that worked for her. He said, "I've never used it on a child," but he says, "You don't have anything to lose." So we did it, and by golly, it worked. And so she's been progressing. She has to come every six months and be checked out, but from that second set of lenses, um, her- her eyesight has held and uh, you know, every time she gets checked though, you know, we've had so much trouble and turmoil that you always kinda tighten up a little bit, you know, and they come back and say, "Oh, her eyesight's even a little bit better," and I go, oh, thank God, you know. But, yeah, so my experience, you know, is—in our life is two sons with strange diseases that died, my daughter that almost died, and her daughter that almost died and almost lost her eyesight. So to find out—so like I said, it's like an unfolding story, right? We—I lived through all this when we know that in the '70s and '80s, and so forth, that the PFAS was being dispersed all over. And one thing that doesn't get talked a lot about, this river out here, the whole bed of that river that I—you dig down in that mud, and I'll guarantee it's got layers of PFAS in it. Our water, city water here in Rockford that, well, there's about 4,500 of us now that live here, they were getting all the city water out of the Rockford Rogue River. Who's talking about that? The water that I drank in high school and junior high school, and that I drank living all the decades that I lived here in town. Yeah, it was a horrible thing they did, burying it out in the countryside, and I have relatives that got poisoned by that. But in hindsight, and working at Wolverine Page 4 �Worldwide for 31 years and seeing how they used that strike to try to close the tannery down, I believe was nefarious that they wanted to cover up their sin. Danielle DeVasto: Can you—do you want to say anything more about the strike? Al Eberlein: About the strike? Danielle DeVasto: Yeah. Al Eberlein: Yeah. Danielle DeVasto: Or your experience at Wolverine? Al Eberlein: Well, my grandfather worked—my great-grandfather worked at Wolverine for 54 years. Nobody ever worked there longer than him. He was hired by Otto Krause back in 1903, when it was family own. And you know how it was back in these—that—those days of small towns and, you know, Wolverine was a big business, see, I mean even then for a small town, and, um, my grandfather went to work there at 16 years old. You know, times were hard back then. There wasn't safety nets, you know, and, um, people were glad to have a good job. He could walk to work. He lived on Main Street. His grandson, my cousin, still lives in the same house that my great-grandfather lived in. And, um, when times were hard, um, uh, in- during the depression, uh, several times Otto Krause came and said, 'Boys, I- I don't have money for payroll," but he says, uh, he said, "If you stick with me," he says, "I'll gladly pay ya in company stock." And my grandfather held onto that stock his whole life, and it divided. And, uh, my grandmother inherited a portion of it, and she gave it to all of us, her grandkids, that came from my greatgrandfather. You know, it was, like, a heritage. And you felt good about—we felt good about Wolverine back in those days, you know, in the old days. And, um, geez, half my relatives worked at the company. You know, it was a stepping stone company that a lot of people—my mother worked there in the office for a year or two, you know, to help buy a new car. You know, it was nice to have a big company that, you know, could facilitate and help out the local community, and everybody always felt good about it. And, uh, when I first started working there, uh, in the early '70s, um, there was still a—Wolverine was corporate by then. It went corporate, I believe in the '50s. And—but there was still, you know, oldtimers that- that worked there. There was—I remember one old guy that remembered my great-grandfather, you know, 'cause my grandfather worked till 1957, from '03. I started working there in- in '72, and I worked there 31 years, but I- I remember, oh, I remember your grandpa, Platton, you know, and- and just that continuity, you know, of community and the work and the pride that our little town, you know, is known worldwide for Hush Puppy shoes. And I personally—I was the dye maker. I- I made, uh, [SNIFFLE] I made dyes that made shoes for, uh, Shaquille O'Neal. [LAUGHTER] You know, hi- his personal loafers, you know, and I thought, you know, I made, uh, I made running shoes when- when we owned Brook's, uh, Running Shoe. I made running shoes for Greg Myers, you know, and- and you had pride in that, in- in our little town, you know, that all this wonderful stuff coming out of our little town and from my perspective, the way that, and this is my opinion, you know, this is the way I perceive it, but that because of PFAS and corporate greed, that they didn't have any problem covering it up, even though it was still currently poisoning people. When 3M told Wolverine in the '90s, that this stuff causes cancer and childhood, uh, diseases and maladies, Page 5 �okay, now I just gave you my testimony about all the childhood maladies that me and my sisters and my brother, who never had any children, he did end up adopting, uh, boy, that's a lot of damage. And for them, that's at the point in the late '90s, where I have a bone to pick with Wolverine Worldwide because they had to be forced to make penance for what they did to the people out in the countryside. How about people like me that lived in this town most of my life in or around the town and all of my—two of my sons are in heaven. You know, I got a—my daughter almost died and had extreme trouble. My granddaughter almost was blind. I mean, I could say if I wanted to be bitter person, I could say you owe me at least a million dollars. I know I'll never get—that would just be a token. That would be a token, you know? But, no, I'll tell you the strike was—so what happened. You see all this was happening at the same time. 3M tells Wolverine Worldwide, oh yeah, you know that stuff's bad. So what do you do? Did you come clean? No, you tried to cover it up. That's what you tried to do. And I believe with all my heart and that's why, you know, there's times in life I- I didn't like my career, I loved my career. I loved the people I worked with, you know, and you made my life a living hell by your corruptness, you know. And like they always say, even, like, with Watergate, the coverup is even worse. If you said, "Oh, we didn't know back in the '70s, and '80s, that this Scotchgard and all this stuff was so bad, oh, geez, you know, and that we went out to farmer John and paid him 40 bucks or whatever to dump it in his back acres," you know, "Oh, what can we do to, what can we do to make it right?" No, you didn't care about making it right. You cared about covering up your sin. They recorded their 12th record profit that year that they drove us out on strike. And why do I say drive us out on strike? Because they came to us with a proposal. They wanted to take a dollar an hour away from us across the board, a dollar an hour. Well, listen folks, I was their dye maker. I'd been their dye maker for 31 years, saving all their shows for 'em and everything, and I never made- I never made $18 an hour. So it wasn't that we were so greatly paid, and I'll tell you what, those guys down there, you know, I don't know what the average wage was, but I know a lot of those guys, their base pay was, you know, $13, $14 an hour, and if they worked real hard in that stinky place that, you know, they could make 125% sometimes on piece rate, but they worked hard in horrible conditions, horrible conditions. And they want to take a dollar an hour away from us while they were posting their 12th record quarter in a row. [BANG SOUND] Do you see how egregious that is? Well, geez, who would do something like that? Who- who would risk throwing away people? I- I, like I said, 31 years, that was on the- the small side of things. Man- many of those guys had 38, 40, 42 years. One guy had 45 years in there as a loyal employee, and they were throwing us away like yesterday's news. Who would do something like that? Oh, yeah, I can see a motive. Somebody that has a greater sin, they're trying to cover up, that's who would do something like that. That's exactly who would [BANG SOUND] do something like that. And you know, back then [SNIFFLE] we didn't- we didn't understand the PFAS thing in- in 2003. We didn't really understand what was going on yet, but we knew just by our innate common sense that something was terribly wrong. Something was terribly, terribly wrong. And so we stayed out on strike and I think we kinda surprised them. And we thought, well maybe when they see we've been out for five or six weeks, and of course, you know, Wolverine's a large company and that's gonna start hurting, Page 6 �hurt- hurt the profit, right? They still didn't care. I remember hearing they- they hired, uh, replacement workers. They said, yeah, we don't need you guys. And they- they kept going all through the summer and into the early fall. Well, we heard news that, um, they received back, I believe, now don't take this verbatim, but I think it was around 170,000 to 180,000 pair of boots, boots or shoes, because of inferior leather, because the replacement workers were not paying 00:27:42 ___________. Did they end the strike there? Did they try to come back to us and say, okay, okay, forget that taking a dollar an hour away, we'll give everybody, uh, 50 cents and next year you get a quarter, and we'll keep everybody happy? No. No, they were bald face as ever. No, not dealing with you. Went all the way past Christmas. And they came the day after Christmas and said, "Well, we'll take a third or so of you back." It'd give you, it was a paltry amount, I forget, 25, 35 cents, but the rest of you are gone, [NOISE] 'cause they still [BANG SOUND] wanted—had it in mind, they wanted to close that place down. I can't believe anything else. It's the only thing at that point. Now this is like six, seven months out on strike, and uh, they still wanted to get rid of us. And I knew I was gone 'cause at that point I'd done—I did an interview with a Christian, uh, radio station, and I did an interview with TV8 and I says, uh, how much is a man's life worth, 'cause most of these people, including myself, gave the best years of their life to that place, and they were throwing us away like yesterday's newspaper. I said, stark fact, while they were making record profit, there again, who would do such a thing? Hmm, somebody covering up a very large sin, I would propose. So anyhow, yeah, we had people die. So there, again, I believe they were covering up their sin. They wanted to sh—they wanted to get us—rid of us quite quickly, I believe. Uh, they wasn't counting on us, um, putting up such a fight. Of course, that got—that garnered, uh, attention from the powers that be, and because it was so egregious, the- the ones such as myself that they let go, and they finally did call us back, uh, long about the end of January, end of February, um, they- the people they let go, they had to, uh, either give a year of, uh, college or pay half of our wages at a new job for a year to help get us hired 'cause, you know, most of us were older guys. You know, I mean it- it's a sad fact, you know, there's nowhere in writing, especially nowadays, if things change so fast now in technology. You're over 50, and you can hardly get an interview, you know, especially then, things were pretty slow. So anyhow, a lot of us, uh, you know, got jobs elsewhere, and they took some of the guys back, and they worked them for, I don't know, I- I think around 2005, or thereabouts, they finally closed it down for good. And I did not get anything 'cause I was long gone by then, but I heard, and I felt a little bit good about this because we had gotten enough. We got enough sunlight shined on their darkness that they had, you know, people were watching them at this point, and I believe that the average person got $17,000 severance pay to, you know, to go somewhere else, and they had to help 'em out. Um, I was already at another, uh- uh, job shop, so I did not get any of those benefits, but, uh, [LIP SMACK] anyhow, so that all happened and then just about that time it starts being un- unveiled of the PFAS problem. And it became more and more apparent what had happened and that they were covering up this horrible sin of burying this stuff around. Oh, come to find out they had buried stuff right by the plant. Uh, I had—and afterwards, you know, in hindsight, now you start looking back and putting the little pieces of the jig pu- jigsaw puzzle together. I had a very dear friend Page 7 �of mine that used to live right next to the tannery, and he says, "Oh yeah, there was a low area there, and they were throwing all their hides right in there to fill up the low area, and then once it got full, they, you know, threw some dirt over it and covered it up." Well, that's one of the, you know, egregious areas that have been, you know, dug up and taken out of there. But that river is loaded with PFAS, from that plant sitting there. They said that- that 15 acres that sits down there now, where, you know, they quickly, you know, tore the tannery down, they were trying to, they almost had a deal going.They were going to try to build a, um, [LIP SMACK] a, uh, hotel there, if you can imagine. Oh, a lovely hotel on the river, you know? Quick, cover up our PFAS, but that dirt, there's areas in there that is one of the top toxic sites in the whole country for PFAS, and it's still sitting there. Now they've done some remediation along the river, but it's very possible with the way these people operated over the years that there could be other spots in that river, and I'll guarantee you, out there, how much PFAS over all those years do you think is lying in the muck of that river? I wouldn't eat one fish out of that river. I want—I had people park behind my house here in- in Pickett Park, and catching salmon and trout out there all the time, and I almost feel like I should tell 'em, I won't eat that stuff. That river's loaded with PFAS. And if you go down the river a little bit farther, the Rockford Paper Mill used to pump stuff. I can remember going behind the Rockford Paper Mill in- in, uh, the '70s, when I was in junior high school, and there's a pipe about that big, that was pumping red effluent right out into the river, you know. [NOISE] So we kinda got it at both ends that way, but I wouldn't eat- I wouldn't eat anything out of that river, you know. So, but let's come back to Rockford. So our water, until all this was coming out, our strike and, uh, the news of, uh, oh, there's a problem with PFAS in the early 2000s, well, what about all the people, the thousands of people that lived in the city all this year, and you fed us PFAS water. How about that? How about people like me that lost two sons andand all my families had childhood maladies, how's about that? [BANG SOUND] Where's the remediation for that? It would be real easy to be real bitter, but, you know, [SNIFFLE] time does heal to a point, and you have to go on living, right, and- and you can't live happily as a bitter person, but there is right and wrong. And I don't think Wolverine Worldwide has, by any means, has gotten to the end of their penance for what they did. And especially that they chose to do a cover-up and to throw people away that made their company for 'em because they wanted to cover up a sin. Well, that's a nice way to treat people that you've been poisoning for 40 years. See, but you have to go on. And so I just, you know, I thank God for people like you, for people like, no seriously, people like, uh, Lynn McIntyre, that actually care about people, like Wolverine used to. Oh, yeah, I got some real good memories of Wolverine. I remember when I first started working there and Tom Gleason would come down, and he wanted anybody that wanted to shake his hand. He'd look you right in the eyes, and,"Thank you for your service, you know, we truly need you around here," and maybe even have a cookie or a little holiday drink with you. It used to—it was like the last vestige of- of a good age. And somewhere in, when we started sending all of our work over to China, and we became a human resource, it became less and less. And it always happens by shades, right, less personable, a little less personable, and now all you are is a resource to throw you away like yesterday's news. And that's the way—it's a bitter pill. I definitely gave Wolverine the best, you know, Page 8 �my—I say, best years, I— that's not totally true 'cause you- you do think, you hope that you gained some wisdom, and, you know, and- and I did home care for 10 years and that was a wonderful time in my life. And I'm glad I did that 'cause it actually was a salvation for me because it really put some, uh, a deeper meaning back into my life and, uh, really did a lot of healing for how my career at Wolverine ended, with them trying to cover up their sin, you know, but uh, yeah, PFAS has done a lot of damage physically, probably mentally, to a lot of people and so on and so forth, but when companies like Wolverine go into cover-up mode, the mental and spiritual damage that they've done to people, you know, some people don't have the wherewithal to come back, and I think about those people often. I think I- I know probably a lot of 'em probably aren't even alive anymore. I- I know that, uh, yeah, there's several people I- I personally knew. There was a maintenance man down there that died from cancer at 42 years old. My friend's dad was having back problems, and he worked down there in the tannery, and [BANG SOUND] so he retired early at 54, only to find out, yeah, his back problems was he was loaded with cancer. And I think that had been repeated with maladies and cancer, people that worked down there over and over again, you know, and uh, so I just hope at some point, you know, we keep moving into the future, right, and then you get into, if I went up to Wolverine now there's probably not even anybody up there that I— even remembers me, or it's a whole new set of people. And you would- you would hope at some point they say, okay, you know, we know that our company, you know, probably did some wrong things, did things the wrong way, and we just- we just want to do whatever it takes to give us that good reputation again, and- and so forth. But, uh, yeah, I— for—looking back in hindsight over my life, after I knew all the facts, yeah, PFAS did a lot of damage. Danielle DeVasto: So then looking forward, what concerns, if any, do you have about PFAS contamination, moving forward? Al Eberlein: Well, for one thing, like I said, I believe it's- it's damaged my lineage. How- how long is it- is it going to keep doing that, you know. Oh, you know, are we still learning? I- I hope the science is- is still gonna find out more and more of, or how can we head things off at the pass, maybe. Like what happened to my daughter with th- this rare form of, uh, preeclampsia. How can we get, you know, more proactive about things like that? And on Wolverine side, I'm not convinced that they've totally come clean yet. I'm not convinced that that whole river is- is remediated yet. Um, and should people like me that lived here all my life, you know, is- is there any compensation for us, you know, is there, or- or any, uh, health benefits or anything? You poisoned this whole town, Wolverine. You poisoned the whole town. Nobody even talks about it. It's kind of convenient how big business and even, you know, unfortunately gov—you know, government, city governments, this little town that was all beholding to Wolverine, how they can kowtow down to money, but just a thought, you poisoned the whole town, the people that made all your money for you. [BANG SOUND] Danielle DeVasto: [SIGH] Big thought. Um, [CLEARING THROAT] before we wrap up, is there anything that we haven't talked about that you'd like to touch on or anything that you want to go back to and say more about? Page 9 �Al Eberlein: Well, there's other things I could say, you know, but I better not, you know. I don't want to get into other people's business, you know. But I'll tell you, like we were talking before you turned the cameras on, just want anybody that might s—watch this or- or maybe even somebody from Wolverine that would look in, do you really realize how deeply and generationally that this kind of thing affects people? And I would think going forward, any good thing comes out of this is that you would double, triple, quadruple down. Never, ever, ever let anything like this ever happen again [THUMPING] because if we don't learn that lesson, then what are we doing here? [NOISE] Danielle DeVasto: Thank you so much, Al, for taking the time to tell your story. Al Eberlein: You're welcome. And once again, thank you for caring, 'cause we've gone through a lot of years where it didn't seem like too many people were caring, and I'm glad to meet people such as yourself and Lynn McIntyre, to know that there are people being vigilant out there, and, um, [LIP SMACK] and, you know, I mean it's- it's all over, and it's not just one thing. Um, like I said, I grew up on Myers Lake. They just found out here recently. I mean, I swam in that lake my whole childhood. Oh, guess what, there's mercury in Myers Lake. Where did that come from? Some business at some point dumped something in there, you know, so how many times can we exponentially extrapolate that out to the countryside? You know, it's like there's landmines all over the place. And uh, so I- I don't think this is anything that's gonna be solved for a long time 'cause we had a lot of industrial years where, I mean, EPA didn't even come about to what, late '60s, into the early '70s, so, you know, it's, uh, we're just kind of getting on, excuse me, on top of a lot of these, uh, more egregious things, you know. But, yeah, do I believe PFAS damaged my life? Yeah, more ways than one. Career wise and personally with my family that even has come into the future with my daughter and granddaughter. And after she had all that trouble with preeclampsia and with the D&Cs that she had to have afterwards that, um, they scarred her for life, and she can't conceive now. So I've got one grandchild, and [KNOCK SOUND] hopefully they'll adopt someday 'cause we got a lot more love to give. Danielle DeVasto: Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you again, Al. I really appreciate it. Al Eberlein: You're welcome. Danielle DeVasto: It was an honor to listen to your story. Al Eberlein: Well, thanks for saying so. Page 10 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource The Living with PFAS interviews were recorded during 2021 to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a group of chemicals used to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. These products include clothing, furniture, adhesives, food packaging, and heat-resistant non-stick cooking surfaces. They are considered "forever chemicals" in that they do not break down in the environment, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and they build up in fish, wildlife, and in the human body. Studies have shown that exposure to large amounts of PFAS may affect growth and development, reproduction, thyroid function, the immune system, and may injure the liver. More research is needed to assess the full health effects of exposure to PFAS. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0034 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eberlein, Alan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-11-29 Title A name given to the resource Alan Eberlein, 2022 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Al Eberlein lives in Rockford, Michigan, where he was born and raised. In this interview, Al discusses his family's history and medical troubles which can be attributed to PFAS exposure. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6fb64d87b8d476cfa944fa70ab9b59b9.mp4 63e6db84b89e7ecd037c554b4b98ba5e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ac530960811b9ba2a67ae1b77ab770c3.pdf 46047858a4641a92b9e986e19f81f7b4 PDF Text Text Living with PFAS Interviewer: Danielle DeVasto Interviewee: Courtney Carignan Date of Interview: 2022-11-18 Danielle DeVasto: I'm Dani DeVasto, and today, November 18, 2022. I have the pleasure of chatting with Dr. Courtney Carignan. Hi Courtney. Courtney Carignan: Hi Danielle DeVasto: Courtney, can you tell me about where you're from and where you currently live? Courtney Carignan: I'm originally from New Hampshire, and I currently live in mid-Michigan and work at Michigan State. Danielle DeVasto: Uh, how long have you been at Michigan State? Courtney Carignan: Since 2017. Danielle DeVasto: Courtney, can you tell me a story about your experience with PFAS or with PFAS in your community? Courtney Carignan: I sure can. Um, so I started actually first got involved in PFAS, um, when I was doing a postdoc in Boston, and I was living in Southern New Hampshire, um, and actually in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, which is right on the coast. Um, and I saw in the paper, our, our community, uh, news Seacoast online, there was a woman who wanted PFAS blood testing for her kids, because PFASs had been detected in the drinking water of Pease Tradeport, which is at the former Pease Air Force Base, and, um, I guess the State had told her that they would do the testing and then a year later they still hadn't done it and were saying now that they couldn't, she was getting very upset. Um, and so I actually had training in PFAS, um, I have a degree in, a Ph.D. in environmental health from the Boston University School of Public Health. And, um, I was trained in under a training grant called Environmental Epidemiology in Community Settings, and I worked on flame retardant, human exposure flame retardants, and, um, I was actually at that time doing a post doc on fertility and flame retardants at Harvard. And, um, so anyway, so I had a lot of training, and you know, how to provide support, technical support for PFAS impacted communities. And my advisor at BU had worked on the C health study. So people in my research group had been working on PFAS for, you know, the past five years or more. Um, and so I just sort of happened to know a lot about PFAS, um, and, you know, saw her in the paper. And so, um, I asked the reporter to tell me, you know, to connect us, and I connected with her and started providing her with technical support and started trying with her, the State with technical support. Um, 'cause I, you know, seem to know more about PFAS than anybody in the area. Um, and you know, Andrea went on to found testing for Pease. She was able to get PFAS blood testing for over 2000 people who worked, um, or was at, were at daycare at Pease Tradeport. Um, from that we learned that PFHXS is, which is, which is a PFAS that has a very long half life. It stays in the body for, uh, quite a long time. Um, that this was something that was part of the, astroblast mixture. So people with astroblast, source of drinking water contamination, um, have this kind of unique signature of PFAS in their bodies that, you know, at the time really wasn't understood at all. So, um, I can remember people misunderstanding the blood test results Page 1 �from Pease as, oh, well their levels aren't that high, but they were looking at PFOA, which is not a major part of AFFF. Um, and if you looked over at the PFHXS, it was quite high, you know, um, a lot of people in, in the community had levels that were elevated above, above what you see in the, the general population. So, um, I worked with Andrea for a few years, and then we helped organize the, uh, national PFAS conference. The first one that was at Northeastern University, um, we put in a proposal to NIHS, um, to do more work on understanding effects, uh, of PFAS in the immune systems of children exposed to 00:03:59 ___________ Pease and also had to community in Massachusetts. Um, and then I got recruited to MSU and I came here. Um, and since I, you know, since I came here, a few communities have learned about actually many communities have learned about PFAS contamination. Um, so I should have mentioned another thing that I did when I was at, um, Harvard is I was part of a, a group that wrote a paper, uh, using the UCMR3 data. So this is data from EPA, uh, that EPA had on PFAS across the country and drinking water. We were able to get that out and published. Uh, we found that over 6 million people had likely been served by PFAS impacted drinking water. Um, and we were able to sort of see that people were more likely to have drinking water contamination if they lived, if the drinking water system was closer to, um, a place that used Atripla for training airports, wastewater treatment plants. Um, and so that paper really, um, set off, um, monitoring in places or helped set off monitoring places. Michigan was one place that started doing statewide monitoring of public drinking water systems. Um, and that happened shortly after I came to MSU and, um, you know, that's how a lot of communities found out about their contamination, but of course, you know, um, in Rockford they had found out a different way. And I think you have a lot of videos of people explaining that situation. Um, and then Portsmith obviously found out was one of the first sites in the United States to discover PFAS contamination. Um, so I've been working, you know, with those communities, provided them with technical sports. Since I came to Michigan, um, I've been working with communities in the southeastern part of the State, um, that had quite high levels detected in their water through the statewide monitoring. I have a small exposure study, uh, where we're looking at exposure, via drinking water, diet and indoor environment. Um, so we know that drinking water is the main way that, so if you have elevated PFAS in your drinking water, um, we know that it's a, a large contributor to exposure and that's why, you know, a lot of the interventions are focused around drinking water. Um, and so, you know, that's the main focus, but, but we also know in the general population that the main exposure is through diet. Um, and so the question that comes up in a lot of communities is, you know, if they have my drinking water, um, treated, and we intervene and, and reduce or eliminate hopefully PFAS and the drinking water, um, do I have an ongoing elevated sources of exposure? So for example, through local and homegrown foods, so some communities have been told not to, you know, eat chicken eggs, not to eat the produce in the gardens. Um, if they irrigated using PFAS contained water and so forth. So communities have found elevating level 00:06:59 ___________ in fish or fish advisories for many PFAS impact communities. Um, and right, so this is a important question. So that's one, one of the questions that we've really working on for the past few years, um, and then the other, we got our, that NIHS project funded. And, um, I think what we've recognized, you know, through Page 2 �work on contaminants over the years, I've been working on contamination issues for 20 years now. And I look young, but I'm not actually that young. Um, so, you know, I've been working in this area for a long time. And what we've, what we've found is that, um, you know, no one research group can effectively help all communities, you know, not anyone scientists can do all the work that needs to be done. And so, um, a big part of our project is, you know, trying to build out resources for PFAS impacted communities. We started doing this before, you know, good resources really existed on federal or State agency websites. Um, and we think has been, you know, hopefully have been used as a model for a lot of those websites and help them, you know, um, give them ideas for how to improve and vice versa. Um, but we have a website called the PFAS exchange. So ww.pfas-exchange.org, and we put up a lot of different tools to help PFAS impact communities and also to help ourselves because we get a lot of emails from people. Um, and it's really helpful to be able to refer them somewhere where all the, you know, things that we think are useful for them are also located. So we have a tool that helps people understand their water. Our blood test results, so puts them into context. Um, so one of the water tool will compare your water results to state and federal agency advi, you know, advisories or MCLs. Um, and that's really complicated 'cause they're always changing, and there's a lot of, you know, to, to sort of dig up all that information on your own as a, you know, even as somebody who works in PFAS is a lot of work. And so, um, it's a really helpful tool, I think for people and also for professionals to be able to use, um, and then also compares you to sort of a representative levels across the country. Um, and I think what you notice when you look at that tool is that, you know, a lot of places are elevated above, you know, what the guideline, which seems to just continue to decrease as we learn more about the toxicities of chemicals. Um, and then the blood tool does something similar except there's no, I don't, I don't think we've come to a great guidance level yet for whats safe in blood. Um, we see effects of PFAS in the general population in general population levels. Um, so, you know, we think that we're, well, we know that we're all exposed, and we think from the data that we have so far, um, in the literature, et cetera, that, you know, these are affecting people at general population levels. Um, and of course that risk goes up as you're more highly exposed and as you have more risk factors, um, and that communication is always difficult with people with, you know, known occupational or drinking water exposures that, um, you know, just because you see this list of health effects, it doesn't mean you're gonna get it. 'cause you've been exposed, we've all been exposed. Some people have been exposed at higher levels than other people. And some people have been exposed at much higher levels than other people. Everyone has been exposed unwittingly. Um, and you know, there's a lot of risk factors that go into why would, why would you get a disease? Um, and so, you know, reducing your exposure moving forward and um, you know, talking to your doctor and trying to reduce your other risk factors and monitoring. So, um, I was part of, um, uh, community liaison for the national academies of engineering and sciences. And 00:11:01 ___________ just did a study on PFAS, um, blood testing and medical monitoring. Um, so as part of that group, and they came up with some nice guidance for clinicians, for talking about to their doctors or for clinicians talking to their patients, they have a nice guidance. Actually they came up with, um, some numbers so that people with levels in their blood Page 3 �could, um, you know, sort of understand better doctors in particular could look at blood levels and then, you know, make some, uh, informed decisions about screening. So there are medical screening guidance that exist out there. We have one on the PFAS exchange on the resources page. Uh, it's a companion guidance, so there's one for clinicians, and there's one for, uh, community members, and they're, you know, really kind of meant to be used together. Um, and then we have a new resources page for clinicians, and we've just put our new, um, continuing medical education video up there that we made with, you know, um, PFAS experts and physicians and, um, people who've been impacted by PFAS. Um, so that's up on our website now along with other tools for clinicians. So we're still building that out. Um, and sorry. I feel like I'm like, um, going around a little bit um, this has been helpful information so far. Danielle DeVasto: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of the way some of the PFAS stories works. I feel like it kind of wins and winds its way around and kind of gets into everything in its own weird way. Um, it sounds though like your, the PFAS exchange is still something that's kind of actively evolving or kind of growing. It sounds like? Courtney Carignan: Mm-hmm. Danielle DeVasto: Are there any, um, obvious next steps that you guys have in mind or other ways that you'd like to see it kind of keep evolving? Courtney Carignan: Well, another recent evolution has been, um, a new map. So we have a mapping tool on there under the community, connecting communities tab that, um, shares PFAS site data across the country. And then also, um, my collaborators came up with this idea of, um, suspect sources. So they actually map all, you know, kind of entities that may use PFAS in their, you know, processes, um, or at PFAS. And so they've mapped all of those, and I mean the map just like lights up completely, and it helps you see like all the places. 'Cause I think one of the things that is hard to communicate about PFAS is that, you know, there's a whole lot of them. I think the, the number keeps growing. I think the last I remember is like 20,000 PFASs um, when I started, I, I mean, I feel like just a few years ago we were saying like 9,000 or 4,000 or 2,000. Um, so the number really gone up a lot and um, you know, I, I tend to talk about them as legacy PFASs. So we know a lot about PFOA and PFOS health effects of these PFAS. We've been for a long time that were faced out a decade ago in the U.S., all of a, of them. Um, some countries have continued to produce some overseas, uh, in that time, but you know, in the U.S., we've been using other PFAS for many years now. And so we tend to talk about those as current use PFAS. So, you know, there's been a focus on monitoring for legacy PFASs and a lot of the data that's out there is legacy PFASs, it's a small panel. Um, and so a lot of our work focuses on looking at expanded panels that include current use PFASs and talking about current use PFASs um, because, you know, it's, it's basically doing a bunch of different jobs at the same time. You're looking back at all of the contamination that's occurred over the past, you know, basically my lifetime, our lifetimes, right. Um, and trying to clean it up, you know, for these bad, very persistent PFASs. And then there's all these new PFASs that, you know, as we learn more about them, we're learning, you know, that they can act in similar ways, a lot of them are less persistent. Some of them are precursors to the legacy PFASs of Page 4 �PFOA, um, and the, the chemistries are very complicated. I work with a lot of analytical chemists and, you know, part of the challenge of looking at PFAS in food is that, you know, different types of food are different types of complicated matrices and the, um, chemistry just didn't exist, you know, to be able to, to reliably, um, quantify large panels of PFAS and food. And then also, um, there are these interferences in food that will give you false positives. Um, and so it's just, it's very complicated, and you know, I'm not analytical chemist, but my work relies on good analytical chemistry. So, um, that's, that's a big challenge for PFAS. We're just like we just been playing catch up. Um, I just feel like since I started working on it, we're just playing catch up and, um, really communicating about, you know, moving to floral polymers, um, doesn't solve the life lifecycle issue of PFAS, which is that you're creating, you know, you're using PFASs to create Flor polymers, and then they're eventually gonna, um, break down back into PFAS over time. You know, we think that hope right, that floral polymers are reducing exposure to the consumer and during the lifetime of the, um, during the, you know, use portion of the product, but we know that, you know, we're not completely solving the problem of PFAS that it's, um, really a life cycle issue. And, uh, yeah, I'm not, did that answer your question? Did I just go off on like another — Danielle DeVasto: No, I mean, it, it raised a lot of really interesting points and, um, you know, uh, wow. And like, it actually makes me think of like probably five more questions that I could ask. Um, but one of the things that struck me about what you're saying too, is that I'm thinking I'm listening and hearing all of these different people that you're collaborating with to kind of, to do your work, you know, analytical chemists, um, all the collaborators that you have as far as like creating the PFAS exchange, the communities that you're interfacing with. And it just, um, it seems like you're, you're involved in a lot of different kinds of conversations about PFAS, you know, whether it's talking about kind of like the, like the chemical makeup and like the really technical nitty gritty, or talking with people who just wanna understand like their test results or what to do next. And I guess, you know, having kind of worked in this realm now for 20 some years, um, what, like, can you, can you say more about that or like what you've learned by doing some of this, this interfacing between all these different groups in order to do your work? Courtney Carignan: Um, I don't know. I, I mean, it's complicated. It's not, you know, we were talking about this before a little bit before we started filming that, you know, it's a really complicated landscape and that what I've learned. And I think I learned, you know, within the first decade of working on these kinds of issues was that no, you know, so I, I got my Ph.D. 'cause I was working in a community where they had drinking water contamination of trichloroethylene. It was a rural community in Pennsylvania and, um, people there really weren't being told much, you know, I kind of witnessed on 'cause I was, I was working in the community for two years doing the response action. I was a consultant. Um, we were, you know, consulting for the responsible party. And so I got this unique, you know, I don't think it's a unique look in, in terms of consulting. That's what consultants do, but it's unique in the sense of academic academics, don't tend to have this perspective. Um, so I really saw what happens in a community when this kind of contamination is discovered and, you know, understood what I thought they needed. I thought they needed studies. So I went back to it, got my Ph.D. Um, I thought they needed people who knew Page 5 �about contamination could help them, which is true. Um, and you know, I think in the process getting my Ph.D. and then, you know, providing technical support at Pease, I realized that or learned, um, through that work that again, you know, scientists and researchers do not have all the answers and do not work on their own, which, um, I'm sure people told me along the way through my training, um, you know, you hear that referred to the importance of community engaged work and the importance of working with your agencies. Um, but I didn't really understand that until, you know, I started doing it and making lots of, you know, probably lots of mistakes along the way. Um, 'cause it's very humbling to, you know, want to do all of this work and then realize like you cannot achieve [LAUGHTER] the things that you think need to be done without, you know, um, these relationships Danielle DeVasto: That's, that's so true., it's so true. And because, you know, as you said, this isn't just the legacy PFAS, it's kind of an evolving, it's an evolving story. Um, it's not just, you know, this one and done kind of thing, which maybe leads me into my next question. Um, thinking about PFAS contamination moving forward, what kinds of concerns do you have? Courtney Carignan: Um, so I'm, you know, I'm concerned about our ability to monitor for and make progress on the current use PFAS issue, right? The tap is still on, it feels very urgent, um, to make progress on that issue quickly. Um, and while simultaneously, you know, addressing all of the legacy pollution, you know, kind of how do we do that all at the same time? Um, the, you know, I, I do a lot of biomonitoring and health studies. Um, that's my main, the main thing that I, if there's a main thing I focus on, that's it, um, it's the, you know, maybe one of the things I'm best at, and you know, the way that we monitor for exposure to legacy PFASs is easy in the sense that you do a blood draw. Um, we just developed, um, or validated a new finger prick test, which is kinda exciting, um, because getting a blood draw is there's a lot of barriers for people. So we've been working on those kinds of issues as part of the reason we have the clinician resources page, we've got lots of resources there to help people get PFAS, blood testing, 'cause that's one of the main things that people tell us that they want when they find out that they've exposed. Um, but you know, legacy PFASs you can detect them in the blood for a very long time after exposure. So if you were exposed five years ago, and you were exposed to PFLS or EFFF um, and you do a PFAS blood test, um, and opposing your drinking water, you know, you could actually back back calculate what your exposure was five years ago. Like we understand, you know, the behavior in the body well enough that we can do that. Um, whereas with current use PFASs, they're gonna be eliminating from the body more quickly. They're still persistent, but not as persistent. And so when, if you're doing bio monitoring the blood, um, and you are ignoring the fact that all these different PFASs have different, you know, longevity in the blood, um, you are not gonna understand exposure correctly. Um, and so I think that's as an exposure scientist, I think, I think, you know, sort of the, the thing I'm thinking about the most right now is, you know, I think a lot about like how, how not to do harm and how to make sure my work is not harming anyone and making mistakes like that could be very big mistakes. So, um, being careful about, you know, how do we make sure that we are understanding people's exposures and representing them correctly, not only exposure assessment, but also importantly, in these environmental epidemiology Page 6 �studies, because exposure misclassification is one of the biggest problems in expo, uh, environmental epidemiology. Um, if you don't have exposure assessed well, um, you have a bias towards the mill, which means you're more likely to conclude there's no effect when one, in fact is there Danielle DeVasto: Can you just for people who maybe are listening and don't know, can you say a little bit more about what biomonitoring is? Courtney Carignan: So bio biomonitoring is, um, testing for or monitoring for, um, usually, you know, in my context, contaminants in the body are in biological matrices. So in people, um, you know where we're testing blood or urine or hair or fingernails, or, you know, you know, different biological fluids or matrices. Um, and you know, before, when I was a consultant, we'd even do it. And in, in lots of people still do this, right. Uh, you can do bio monitoring of, of IOTA also, um, but in my context I'm usually talking human health studies. Danielle DeVasto: Before we wrap, is there anything that you would like to add or, um, that we haven't touched on today or anything you wanna go back to and say more about? Courtney Carignan: Um, I mean, I, I plugged the PFAS exchange website. I think that's a really helpful place for people to get information. Um, and you know, we do, you know, it is a work in progress. Hopefully we can get funded to continue working on that, 'cause I think our project period is expiring, but, um, you know, we, we always wanna make it better, and it's helpful to, you know, know from people not only like what ways to improve it, but also, you know, sometimes we partner with people who can volunteer their time or, [LAUGHTER] you know, can help us find funding to, to be able to continue improve it. 'cause it is, like you said, I'm doing a lot of different things, and you know, spread pretty thin. So it's, um, there's like the pie in the sky, what we wanna do. And then there's like the nuts and bolts of getting it done and so people wanna, um, get connected. Uh that's great. And then I guess I would also say, you know, I, I, I would encourage people who, you know, are exposed, and you know, wanna take action. Um, there's a lot of different groups. So if you go to the PFAS exchange connection, connecting communities page, uh, it'll help you find different groups that are working on PFAS and taking action in their communities. And then we have a national PFAS contamination coalition, um, or shouldn't say we, there is one, um, I serve, um, serve as a, you know, provide technical assistance for the coalition. Um, and I provide technical assistance for a lot of community groups, you know, a lot of my funding, um, you know, my salary, right. It's all comes from the public. So, you know, I see that work as, you know, as long as I have the bandwidth to do it, you know, I'm gonna do that kinda work. Danielle DeVasto: I imagine also find, find meaningful because it sounds like that's sort of, you know, working with communities sounds like where your story started way back in Pennsylvania. Courtney Carignan: Yeah. I mean, you know, I'm from a mill family. So my, um, grandfather actually was a lumberjack in Maine and my grandmother worked at a shoe factory in Maine, Um, and you know, I'm, you know, I'm from New Hampshire, but you know, we have a lot of, you know, my husband's family help build the mills in New Hampshire. Um, so we kind of have this, um, history to our families that, um, you know, we also are French Canadians, so we also have indigenous, you know, backgrounds. So, um, I Page 7 �think I see those communities and, and I understand, you know, what challenges they face. Um, so yeah, I do find a lot of meaning in that work. Danielle DeVasto: Well, I have poked around the PFAS exchange website, and it looks awesome. I'm very grateful to you guys for creating that. Seems like such a great resource in so many ways, and I'm excited to see where it keeps going. Have you gotten much feedback about the website since it's launch? Courtney Carignan: Yeah. I mean, mostly we get mostly we get, uh, feedback from the coalition 'cause we meet with them and ask them, um, but, and then I have feedback from myself. Right. All things we wanna do. [LAUGHTER' Um, so yeah, it's definitely a work in progress. Well, I'm, I'm so glad that it's there, and I'm always happy to have it because you know, there are lots of questions and there's so much information and confusing information. So having somewhere to be able to send people is a really, seems like a really great thing. So. Courtney Carignan: I guess another thing to mention is, um, that I am working with firefighters as well cause firefighters have occupational exposures to PFAS. Um, and so I'm connected with a group that has a website called PFAS for EPPE. Um, and I'm connected with the IFFF and, um, I'm doing a very small exposure study on firefighters. I know that there's a bigger study going on in the State led by NDHHS, but, um, I decided mention that as well, that, you know, occupational exposed groups, I think, um, you know, there's been a lot of focus on drinking water. Um, and that's what I'm focusing on a lot on the last, you know, five to 10 years. But, um, occupational exposure is something that is also very important, and there's so many ways that people can occupation expose to PCOS and have no idea. So firefighters for a long time were told that Atripla was like soap and water and, um, it's just, that's how they treated it. So they, you know, exposed themselves, they, you know, spread it all over the environment. Um, PFASs are used in, have been used in ski wax. Um, I'm trying to think of all 'cause I usually like rattle off a list of occupations that you use PFAS and might not know. Danielle DeVasto: Yeah. What are, what are a couple of the most surprising ones? Courtney Carignan: Well, I mean, carpeting has been, you know, something that we were working on at BU during my Ph.D. So our group was the first to show PFAS, you know, and in the indoor environment from carpeting, um, and that, you know, it's in the air and dust and, and people also spray Scotchguard on their furniture. It was very common in the past. I was at my local hot tub store last summer and didn't get a hot tub, but I did notice that, uh, no, I wish I, they had a can of that kind of spray, and it actually said on it, you know, perifluoro-, blah, blah, blah. And I was so shocked that they still sell this kind of spray. And I told the cashier like, do you know what's in this? Um, so yeah, I mean that, those kinds of sprays are still in the market and, you know, people, you know, for the past, you know, a few decades used to spray it in their homes, um, parchment paper. Um, so the paper that you used to line, you know, holiday seasons coming up and doing a lot of baking, um, I'm curious to know what PFASs are being replaced in parchment paper. They think they're moving away from PFASs in food packaging, um, and food contact papers. Um, and so I guess those are the two sort of indoor environments, I think about the most. Um, I think UFM published a study on PFASs on floor wax, um, or they had a poster on it. So they found that it Page 8 �was being used in the, those big machines that wax the floors. Um, so that, I think that's another surprising place they're used in extrusion of plastics. So vinyl flooring there's trace levels at least of PFASs in, uh, artificial turf. So the plastic blades of graphs, grass in artificial turf, um, I mean, it's just like the list just goes on and on and on places that PFASs are used that are surprising. I mean, originally the first sort of surprising place that that was discovered was popcorn bags, microwave, popcorn bags, and again, I'm not sure what replacements being used currently, if it's still a PFAS or something else. Um, people ask all the time about, you know, pans, um, stuff on pans or nonstick pans. Consumer reports just put out a nice report on that. So I'm referring people to that report for more information. Um, but yeah, there's a lot of sources, you know, kind of lurking sources of PFAS, um, that you expect or know about. And often don't have control over, like right in your workplace, if you have a stain resistant carpeting, like, you know, um, what are you gonna do about that or in your home even, um, can you afford to replace it? Um, so I did that answer your question. on another tangent, but like in terms of occupational exposure zone, people who actually did make stain resistant carpeting, people who work, you know, in paper, the paper industry, you know, they actually mix the paper, you know, pull up in the PFAS together. Uh, people who worked in tanneries and used PFASs on leather goods, um, people who worked in the plating industry and are standing over vats of PFAS containing you know, so, you know, I think about those people and, um, wonder what's being, what's being done for them. Danielle DeVasto: Well, thank you so much, Courtney, for taking the time to share your story and your work today. Um, it's been a pleasure talking with you, Courtney Carignan: You too. Page 9 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource The Living with PFAS interviews were recorded during 2021 to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a group of chemicals used to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. These products include clothing, furniture, adhesives, food packaging, and heat-resistant non-stick cooking surfaces. They are considered "forever chemicals" in that they do not break down in the environment, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and they build up in fish, wildlife, and in the human body. Studies have shown that exposure to large amounts of PFAS may affect growth and development, reproduction, thyroid function, the immune system, and may injure the liver. More research is needed to assess the full health effects of exposure to PFAS. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0033 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Carignan, Courtney Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-11-18 Title A name given to the resource Courtney Carignan, 2022 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Dr. Courtney Carignan lives in central Michigan and works at Michigan State University, though she was raised in New Hamphsire. She holds a PhD in environmental health from the Boston University School of Public Health. In this interview, she discusses her involvement with PFAS advocacy and research in her communities, as well as a new mapping tool that will collect and share PFAS site data across the United States. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/56633af223e46292a26f2b48512f45cb.mp4 43143efa6ab44119f1b0a11f64e384a7 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1c88a5fe46be90623647803f675c3b72.pdf 7a5e5b4e95c0f3f44479eb0505c4f964 PDF Text Text Living With PFAS Interviewee: Kevin Elliot Interviewer: Dani DeVasto Date: October 17, 2021 DD: I’m Dani DeVasto, and - [Recording paused] chatting with doctor Kevin Elliot. Hi Kevin. KE: Hey. DD: Kevin, can you tell me about where you're from and where you currently live. KE: Sure, well originally I grew up near the Chicago area - in the suburbs. Currently I live in Okemos, Michigan, which is just to the east of east lansing where im a faculty member at michigan state university. DD: And how long have you been there? KE: I came in January of 2014, so I guess it's been about 7 and a half years. DD: Kevin, can you tell me a story about your experience with pfas or with pfas in your community? KE: Yeah, so um... I don't have a good story about PFAS in my community, but um, I have, over the past year been involved with the center for PFAS research at MSU, and then I’ve been on a, um, National Academy of Sciences Committee thats is trying to give guidance to clinicians as they work with people who are concerned about PFAS exposure. And I guess maybe just a story that might be of interest related to that is that we’ve been having these public sessions where people who have been dealing with PFAS exposure can share their experiences, and several of the sort of stories that I've heard through that have been some that are really striking to me. And um, I guess maybe i'll just say one general sort of reaction first then you can let me know if you want me to get more concrete. The general reaction that has just been striking to me as I hear from different people who have been saying, saying they have children who ended up with testicular cancer or you know, other sorts of effects, or um other people, you know, spouses who have been dealing with health effects is just how frustrated they've been, feeling like their um, the physicians they've been working with, haven't been very supportive or in some cases even kind of minimize the likelihood that PFAS contributed to the health problems. And of course, you know it is - you can't be sure what caused it. But it was just so surprising to me hearing about the disappointment they've had working with doctors that either don't know anything about �PFAS, which I can kind of understand. But then also, just plain kind of being dismissive and not wanting to be very helpful in exploring PFAS as a potential contributor to these problems. So that was really striking to me. DD: Can you maybe take a step back and talk a little bit about how you got to that point of having those conversations; some of your background in any context, I think that might be helpful. KE: Yeah, I mean It would be helpful to talk about sort of how I ended up, like, how this committee ended up forming, or like sort of my background in terms of my scholarship and stuff like that DD: Yes, yes. KE: Okay, I'll talk about it all. So i'm a philosopher of science and I uh, - I don't know how much nitty gritty to go into - I have a background in chemistry and then I got interested in philosophy, and so I ended up doing my PhD in the history of philosophy and science and alot of scholarship involved studying controversies about science, and especially environmental kind of areas of science, and um, especially environmental pollution. And so, I would sometimes look at the role of conflicts of interest in that science. How they all have different groups with different financial stakes or other personal stakes in scientific controversies or how harmful chemicals may be. So I'm interested in, sort of, what are the judgements that go into evaluating the science in trying to say, yeah we think this chemical is pretty harmful or no its not that big of a deal. So yeah, as a philosopher I dont do the hardcore science but I sort of reflect and look at the dates and try to understand why are there these disagreements, how do we handle the disagreements, how do we sort of address them responsibly and so on. So anyway, as part of that work, I have ended up getting a little bit connected with agencies like The National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences which is part of the national institute of health. Which funds alot of our medical research in the US, and the national academy of sciences. I don't know if it's helpful for me to say what that is for folks, uh DD: Sure. KE: Folks watching this may not know so much, The National Academy of Sciences put together, actually back during the civil war, as um sort of an expert organization provided by [?] to the federal government. And so, It will create committees to address certain issues when government agencies want certain advice on things. Most of the time it would be science on these committees, um, and uh so I was a little surprised when I got a approached to see if I could serve on this particular committee, that um, was actually partly - trying to think of the right word - commission, I guess, by a branch of the center of disease control, the ATSDR, which is the �Agency for Toxic Substances and Diseases [?] This is this group that helps deal with communities who are facing chemical exposures, pollution, spills [?]. And so they've provided advice to doctors in the past about how to deal with PFAS, but they've had pushback from communities feeling like the advice they've provided hasn't really been what they hoped for, communities feel like the current guidance isn't very supportive for them to be able to get tested for their exposure to PFAS, and it maybe doesn't - Yeah maybe just isn't as aggressive when accepting that their might be health effects from PFAS exposures as i think a lot of people in these communities would want. Anyways, so this community was put together and its mostly scientists, I was a little surprised as a philosopher that they asked me to be involved. But, I now understand why, because one of the things the committee asked to do is to provide principals for clinicians who are making decisions and providing advice under scientific uncertainty. I think they use the language of substantial scientific uncertainty. Scientists often don't really like having to provide advice in those kinds of situations. And it's just a tricky, tricky issue. So anyway, I think they realized maybe it'll be good to have someone like me on this committee, and I think it turned out to be a good move. So that's the background behind this, and I’m just blabbing away but as we got started, often it would just be us experts deliberating, and we ended up realizing this is so tightly connected with people's own experiences, maybe to be responsible, we really need to have some open town halls where we can hear from various people and communities who have had these experiences, and so that's where my story came from, that we’ve been hearing these [?] experiences, and that's probably what I’m most useful for sharing during this discussion. Because I don't have personal experiences but I’ve been struck by what I’ve heard from people. DD: Absolutely, were people something you were aware of before you started this project? How did you kind of come to be aware? KE: I was hearing about it a bit, just from you know interacting with other people in the university setting, um so I don't know exactly when I first heard of it, but I kept hearing little bits and pieces about it, and kind of got the sense, you know, i feel like the environmental health community will go through these waves where there will be this new big thing we realize, “Ah” This is a problem and there hasn't been enough work on it, then you know maybe it dies down, or it maintains attention and something else will come up that we realize, so I just kept hearing bits and pieces about it and thinking wow maybe this is a significant area I should try and learn more about. And then when some of the faculty at MSU started kind of pursuing like, some research funding to try and make a center for research on PFAS, I thought well this is a great opportunity to find out more, and so I got involved in that center. Thats been the past couple of years I’ve been learning a lot, I really didn't know much previously. DD: And do you foresee PFAS continuing to be part of your research focus moving forward or do you think this is - Like once you develop these guidelines? �KE: I think that, so you know participation in the national academy will be over, were supposed to have a report submitted in May of 2022, but, I would like to continue sort of exploring this issue, kind of as a philosopher I tend to sort of explore areas like case studies where i’ll sort of look over the research being done on them, you know, ask questions about it. So I would like this to be uh one of these case studies that I look at in the future. I have the benefit. Scientists have to develop all this infrastructure in their labs and really focus on something. I have the luxury. I can look at multiple case studies, but I’d like this to be one of them for a while to come I think. DD: So, as a philosopher then, are there particular questions or aspects of this particular PFAS case study that interest you, or challenge you, or you know... keep your attention? KE: Yeah um, well I think - I don't know that PFAS is totally unique compared to you know, other things, but I think there are some issues in this case and in other cases that strike me as really interesting. And one is, it once again highlights the question of how to engage in appropriate regulation and policy and responses to these issues where we're just not gonna have all the scientific knowledge that we'd like. Because, you know like I constantly hear, you know about thousands, you know often the numbers like five thousand different PFAS compounds that could be used, that are out there, depending on how you find exactly what counts in this category, and so there's just no way we can test all these things in detail, it's like a micro[?] of our general problems with, you know, chemical recreation, so we have to find strategic ways to sort of make decisions without knowing all of the nitty-gritty details. You know, some people suggest we should group them together as either a huge class, or as some class and say look, if a chemical falls under this general group, then shouldn't use it, or try to minimize the use, or try to look for alternatives for the greatest extent possible. And so, those are the things that interest me, sort of looking at the science and the decision making and trying to figure out what do we do given that this is just too messy, there's just too much going on to really study in great detail. DD: So I know your report and your study are still ongoing, but do you have any ideas about what we should do? KE: Yeah well... so... so this is where I probably can't say a ton about the details of the report at this point. But, um, I think a general theme in my work is to argue that it's a real mistake to think that you have to have the science figured out, before you can make decisions. I tend to be a fan of the folks who, you know some folks have been writing articles, saying things like given how persistent these are in the environment and given that, you know a lot of them seem to be fairly bioaccumulative, meaning that um, a build up in organisms and as it goes up the food chain you know, humans can end up you know [?] in our bodies. I think we have to be willing to go ahead and take some sort of action, even if we don't have decisive proof that there's a problem. And that's actually a little bit different from what I’m saying from the details from what we're talking �about in our report, our advice for clinicians. I guess I’m giving this general sort of perspective that we cant be perfectly precautionary with respect to everything, but I think it doesn't make any sense to say well we can't take any actions until we get the science. I think that's a mistake. DD: Well I will be looking forward to reading your report, in the near future hopefully. KE: Yeah, yeah. I’m hoping that it will be useful and it has been really interesting so I’ll just mention one other thing. As part of putting it together we looked at sorts of frameworks for making decisions under uncertainty, and it has been kind of striking to me that again, I feel like these frameworks in general are much more geared towards making the decision when you’ve got a good deal of evidence that we don’t have as quality frameworks for making decisions under uncertainty, and I think the scientific community just doesn't feel super comfortable with that. That's just the one comment I would make that's been interesting for me as I've been reading and [?]. DD: And can I maybe ask about another- other frameworks in terms of guidance from medical professionals. What's kind of the status on guidance for that or for medical professionals specifically dealing with PFAS right now? KE: Yeah, I’m not much of an expert on the medical stuff, but it's been very interesting for me learning a little bit more, there's a well put together framework from the United States Preventive Services Task Force (USPSTF) And I get the impression they provide all kinds of guidelines for things like, you know when you should start getting prostate cancer screening or colonoscopies or breast cancer screening or all that kinds of stuff. And so they’ve got this whole framework in place for trying to evaluate evidence and decide when it's enough to definitely recommend that people do something or recommend that people do it, um, if they want to, you know leaving more judgement for them, and like how much evidence they wanna see in order to make these kinds of recommendations. So it's really pretty aggressive, but again, my sense of the framework, they don't really like to provide recommendations when there's substantial scientific uncertainty. So that’s one of the frameworks that was interesting to learn a little bit more about. DD: Sure. So what concerns, if any, do you have about PFAS contamination or PFAS related issues moving forward from this time? KE: Yeah, one of the things that strikes me, and this is coming from hearing people talk in these town halls from the committee, was just how sad it is, that you’ll have communities where on the one hand, people will want to find more about the contamination in their communities. But then, they’re afraid, at least some people in the communities are afraid, that if there were more, well then it would end up being economically harmful, like people don't want to come to those communities as tourists or people don't want to buy houses in those communities - or um - It was �so striking hearing about, like, farmers or ranchers like once they found out that they're, lets say, herd of animals was contaminated. Then they are in just a total mess in terms of not being able to sell the animals or sell milk from the animals or things like that. And so, It really worries me realizing that there's this tension between wanting to learn more about, you know, the potential threats one faces, then they are communities will disadvantage finding this stuff out. That can create tension between communities, and just, - serious economic problems, and so anyways that was really striking to me. DD: Yeah, I can imagine that playing out in a number of different ways into communities. Well, before we wrap up, Kevin, is there anything that you'd like to go back to, that we - or anything you'd like to add that we haven't touched on? I know you jumped around your story. KE: Right, right. DD: But I wanted to hear if you had a chance to go and say anything additional. KE: Yeah, another thing I guess - I guess that has just struck me, as I’ve been learning more about PFAS and maybe this is more sort of, you know the cognitive and academic thing you're looking for, but um, It's just been interesting - One of the things that I have been intrigued about is debates about biosolids, which are you know kind of produced from waste water treatment plants and have lots of, fertilizer potentially. So farmers will, you know, put them on their fields, and in principle it seems like a great way to kind of have a circular economy where you know, we're producing sewage waste, but we can take some of the good aspects of it and put it back on the land. But, then there are concerns now about pollutants in biosolids and so on, and worries that if we put it on farmers' fields it can cause problems, you know, potentially taken up by crops and then be a problem for people or be a problem for people near those fields and so on. It's just been striking as I learn more about this, I don't know enough about the scientific details on how much you should be worried about this and so on, um, but just realizing what a problem it is to sort of deal with these when they are so persistent in the environment, that its like they just keep cycling around. So you know, well go into the wastewater treatment plant, and then they go to the biosolids and the biosolids either have to go to some landfill somewhere or have to get spread on someones fields, then it goes to the landfills and eventually seems to come out in the [?] then that has to go somewhere, maybe back to a wastewater treatment plant, if it spreads on the fields then it may go into water. And the ways in which - We can’t get rid of this stuff, you know, unless I guess you burn it at 1000 degrees celsius or something, again the scientists can provide more nitty-gritty but that has been pretty striking to me, and again has kinda furthered my thinking, where you know, it just doesn't make sense to use persistent compounds like this, if we can avoid it. Because it’s just such a mess if they might become a problem. And so I think that's something that has been really striking and interesting to me as i've learned a little bit more about PFAS. �DD: Yeah, a whole other set of problems. KE: Right, exactly. And I - I don't know if there's anything else, um, that struck me. [Brief Pause] I guess just the other thing, and again this isn’t particularly profound, but it's been so interesting to me also hearing about some of the communities, or like, uh, seeing your military bases, or like firefighters where they are especially using these foams, they call them “A Triple F” [?] Forming foams I think, they reason in which they were told this is just like soap and they had no worries about these, and you know sometimes they would just use it for fun. Kids would play in this stuff, figuring you know they could just spray this everywhere and not worry at all about being exposed to it. And um, It just makes me wonder kinda the lesson I kind of gleamed from this is, what things are we exposed to now, where we’re just assuming there's nothing to worry about, and then we might find out 10 years from now, oh there was a problem, and again, we wanna ask these questions about surely there should be a better way of strategizing in terms of putting products onto the market. I know we don't want to halt innovation, but it's just so striking to me the way we just produce thousands of chemicals and just throw them out there and then end up finding out kinda later at some point that there's a worry. I'm just pontificating about all kinds of stuff. DD: Well I mean from a historical perspective too it's interesting right, I'm sure you've seen this is not the first time humanity has done something like this. Like, we seem to keep doing these things where we throw products out there and discover after the fact that we need to [?] back. So I imagine there might be some interest for you there from a historical perspective as well. KE: Of course, of course, absolutely. Great point. DD: Yeah, well thank you so much, Kevin. For taking the time to share your story today. KE: Yeah! It's a pleasure and I'm really glad youre doing this project. DD: Thank you. KE: Thanks. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource The Living with PFAS interviews were recorded during 2021 to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a group of chemicals used to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. These products include clothing, furniture, adhesives, food packaging, and heat-resistant non-stick cooking surfaces. They are considered "forever chemicals" in that they do not break down in the environment, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and they build up in fish, wildlife, and in the human body. Studies have shown that exposure to large amounts of PFAS may affect growth and development, reproduction, thyroid function, the immune system, and may injure the liver. More research is needed to assess the full health effects of exposure to PFAS. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0029 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Elliott, Kevin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-09-27 Title A name given to the resource Kevin Elliott, 2021 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Dr. Kevin Elliott lives in Lansing, Michigan, and is involved in the Center for PFAS Research at Michigan State University. He also serves on a National Academy of Sciences Committee that gives guidance to clinicians working with people concerned about PFAS exposure. Elliott holds a PhD in the history of philosophy and science, and studies controversies about science and environmental pollution. In this interview, Elliott discusses his involvement with PFAS research and education. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/935e807f8abb9b882679cb5709eec416.jpg cb948fca1bf8114518740b26abdbae17 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State College Charter signing, 1960 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State College Board of Control Description An account of the resource Governor G. Mennen Williams signing the bill that established Grand Valley State College as Michigan's 10th state-supported, four-year college on April 26, 1960. Governor Williams appointed nine individuals as members to the first Board of Control. Their first meeting was held in Governor Williams' office on October 17, 1960, where each member was sworn in, and a chairman was elected. Pictured with Governor Williams (seated) are seven members of teh first Board of Control: [Left to right] James Copeland, William Kirkpatrick, Icie Macy Hoobler, Kenneth Robinson, Grace Kistler, L. William Seidman, and Arnold C. Ott. Not pictured are Edward J. Frey and Dale Stafford. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960-04-26 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Photographs, GV012-01 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Colleges and universities Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UA002087 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/aabbc21713e56a19354302543c764027.jpg 417b0758ecd07c2a86eb78e89f481aeb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Douglas R. Gilbert Photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R., 1942-2023 Description An account of the resource Photographs scanned from negatives and transparencies from the Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183). Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960-2011 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="%E2%80%9Dhttps%3A//gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783%E2%80%9D">Douglas R. Gilbert Papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Photographs Photography -- United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image Type The nature or genre of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183_AN065-0042 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-08-30 Title A name given to the resource City Hall Civil War Memorial, Williamston, Michigan Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of the Williamston City Hall Civil War Memorial, a statue deditcated to the local soldiers of the Civil War, located on East Grand River Road in Williamston, Michigan. The statue's inscription reads, "In memory of Eli P. Alexander, Post No. 103, 1861-1865." Scanned from the negative. Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865--Monuments--Michigan Statues--Michigan--Williamston War memorials--Michigan--Williamston Black-and-white photography Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783">Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1990s Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a4f30c29d57247b2d4b895e5e440b85b.jpg 9b4b84774bde20471b9551622b858f2a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Douglas R. Gilbert Photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R., 1942-2023 Description An account of the resource Photographs scanned from negatives and transparencies from the Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183). Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960-2011 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="%E2%80%9Dhttps%3A//gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783%E2%80%9D">Douglas R. Gilbert Papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Photographs Photography -- United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image Type The nature or genre of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183_AN065-0001 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-08-30 Title A name given to the resource Great Lakes State, Williamston, Michigan Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph featuring an exterior view of the "Great Lakes State Heating and Air Conditioning" business located in Williamston, Michigan. Scanned from the negative. Subject The topic of the resource Heating and ventilation industry--Michigan--Williamston Small business--Michigan--Williamston Williamston (Mich.) Black-and-white photography Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783">Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1990s Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c49e841b7f858b6c2b82cc6d9c2753e3.jpg be0cc9fb937f2c6e44fd0d63fff5d573 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Douglas R. Gilbert Photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R., 1942-2023 Description An account of the resource Photographs scanned from negatives and transparencies from the Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183). Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960-2011 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="%E2%80%9Dhttps%3A//gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783%E2%80%9D">Douglas R. Gilbert Papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Photographs Photography -- United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image Type The nature or genre of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183_Z038-0038a Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1985-09-01 Title A name given to the resource Bumper Cars, Salisbury Beach Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of a group of people riding bumber cars at Salisbury Beach’s Amusement Center in Salisbury, Massachusetts. Scanned from the negative. Subject The topic of the resource Amusement rides--Massachusetts--Salisbury Salisbury (Mass.) Salisbury (Mass. : Town) Black-and-white photography Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783">Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1980s Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/da22042518f950e706d40ebe8571fcd0.jpg dc66b2476cb1cd0ad3f12a868364d386 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Douglas R. Gilbert Photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R., 1942-2023 Description An account of the resource Photographs scanned from negatives and transparencies from the Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183). Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960-2011 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="%E2%80%9Dhttps%3A//gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783%E2%80%9D">Douglas R. Gilbert Papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Photographs Photography -- United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image Type The nature or genre of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183_Z038-0017a Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1985-09-01 Title A name given to the resource Witch Castle Ride, Salisbury Beach Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of the "Witch Castle" amusement park dark ride at Salisbury Beach’s Amusement Center in Salisbury, Massachusetts. Scanned from the negative. Subject The topic of the resource Amusement rides--Massachusetts--Salisbury Salisbury (Mass.) Salisbury (Mass. : Town) Black-and-white photography Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783">Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1980s Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3506b4b87cf3d3cc0a5bf983bbb77bc0.jpg 971f9f90dbb3fb4caea0ea631d0babfb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Douglas R. Gilbert Photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R., 1942-2023 Description An account of the resource Photographs scanned from negatives and transparencies from the Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183). Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960-2011 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="%E2%80%9Dhttps%3A//gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783%E2%80%9D">Douglas R. Gilbert Papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Photographs Photography -- United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image Type The nature or genre of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183_Z037-0044a Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1985-09-01 Title A name given to the resource Pirate Ship Ride, Salisbury Beach Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of a "Sea Dragon" pirate ship amusement ride at Salisbury Beach’s Amusement Center in Salisbury, Massachusetts. Scanned from the negative. Subject The topic of the resource Amusement rides--Massachusetts--Salisbury Salisbury (Mass.) Salisbury (Mass. : Town) Black-and-white photography Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783">Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1980s Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d1043736a0a7b1d12989f23ccedc7c2d.jpg 89fc6a4ab43e8999a412e7c98a5809d3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Douglas R. Gilbert Photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R., 1942-2023 Description An account of the resource Photographs scanned from negatives and transparencies from the Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183). Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960-2011 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="%E2%80%9Dhttps%3A//gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783%E2%80%9D">Douglas R. Gilbert Papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Photographs Photography -- United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image Type The nature or genre of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183_Z037-0040a Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1985-09-01 Title A name given to the resource Go-Cart Racing, Salisbury Beach Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of a go-kart race track at Salisbury Beach’s Amusement Center in Salisbury, Massachusetts. Scanned from the negative. Subject The topic of the resource Karts (Automobiles)--Massachusetts--Salisbury Amusement rides--Massachusetts--Salisbury Salisbury (Mass.) Salisbury (Mass. : Town) Black-and-white photography Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783">Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1980s Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/647589857ac6097926f06d17fee83031.jpg 7a0ebf095d33be80d6c0e3cefee6576b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Douglas R. Gilbert Photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R., 1942-2023 Description An account of the resource Photographs scanned from negatives and transparencies from the Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183). Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960-2011 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="%E2%80%9Dhttps%3A//gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783%E2%80%9D">Douglas R. Gilbert Papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Photographs Photography -- United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image Type The nature or genre of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183_Z037-0014a Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1985-09-01 Title A name given to the resource Zig-Zag Ride, Salisbury Beach Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of a "Zig-Zag" amusement ride at Salisbury Beach’s Amusement Center in Salisbury, Massachusetts. Scanned from the negative. Subject The topic of the resource Amusement rides--Massachusetts--Salisbury Salisbury (Mass.) Salisbury (Mass. : Town) Black-and-white photography Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783">Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1980s Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/da4d19756bdd1a81b96128861b3affa2.jpg 355e226e257e09940722bc77d0d7a4c3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Douglas R. Gilbert Photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R., 1942-2023 Description An account of the resource Photographs scanned from negatives and transparencies from the Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183). Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960-2011 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="%E2%80%9Dhttps%3A//gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783%E2%80%9D">Douglas R. Gilbert Papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Photographs Photography -- United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image Type The nature or genre of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183_Z037-0010a Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1985-09-01 Title A name given to the resource Roll Over Barrel Ride, Salisbury Beach Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of a "Roll Over Barrel" amusement ride at Salisbury Beach’s Amusement Center in Salisbury, Massachusetts. Scanned from the negative. Subject The topic of the resource Amusement rides--Massachusetts--Salisbury Salisbury (Mass.) Salisbury (Mass. : Town) Black-and-white photography Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783">Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1980s Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/44d93efa3e7edf0d0d2725502e5ac4a7.jpg ca7b9ffb85fd6288f778a18ff8c41ed7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Douglas R. Gilbert Photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R., 1942-2023 Description An account of the resource Photographs scanned from negatives and transparencies from the Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183). Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960-2011 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="%E2%80%9Dhttps%3A//gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783%E2%80%9D">Douglas R. Gilbert Papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Photographs Photography -- United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image Type The nature or genre of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183_Z036-0044a Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1985-09-01 Title A name given to the resource Three Wise Owls Machine, Salisbury Beach Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of a "Three Wise Owls" amusement park machine located at Salisbury Beach’s Amusement Center in Salisbury, Massachusetts. In the photograph, a sign is hanging above the machine that reads, "The Three Wise Owls Can Tell 1 Cent." Scanned from the negative. Subject The topic of the resource Amusements--Massachusetts--Salisbury Salisbury (Mass.) Salisbury (Mass. : Town) Black-and-white photography Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783">Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1980s Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b1963045db2dc6d6f1774a6a223dc887.jpg 7141557cb74c01d0af047ae6af13d187 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Douglas R. Gilbert Photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R., 1942-2023 Description An account of the resource Photographs scanned from negatives and transparencies from the Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183). Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960-2011 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="%E2%80%9Dhttps%3A//gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783%E2%80%9D">Douglas R. Gilbert Papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Photographs Photography -- United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image Type The nature or genre of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183_Z036-0018a Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1985-09-01 Title A name given to the resource Ring Toss Game, Salisbury Beach Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of a ring toss amusement park game located at Salisbury Beach’s Amusement Center in Salisbury, Massachusetts. Scanned from the negative. Subject The topic of the resource Amusements--Massachusetts--Salisbury Salisbury (Mass.) Salisbury (Mass. : Town) Black-and-white photography Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783">Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1980s Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives