3 24 66 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0ca6b1b55e7c8698aa271047e7431d64.mp4 0ad93e83685e5d9deb8dd5ad1718d6b2 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e35e47ad033009e1b411fd9e76c14363.pdf 40175bec014cfd18354f8e456169fb20 PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: James Clover Date: 1984 Part: 2 of 2 [Clover] William James was an information exchange for all the people that were involved. And I think that in any disciple that you're pursuing, that you need information and that it was a good way to get it. And I don't know, you know. It was the first time that I had ever been involved with engineers, environmentalists, writers. Did we have musicians? We had some amateur musicians. [Barbara] [Inaudible]. [Clover] Right. We had philosophers, psychologist preachers, historians. All in one place. [Barbara] You know what, that was good. Keep thinking- keep talking. Repeat it to me. What was some… [Inaudible]? [Clover] Not bad. [Barbara] What can't you do now, Jim. I mean, here you are in your studio, it looks like your [?] totally. What can't you do now? Why do you need a structure? [Clover] Now, all I do is go to art faculty meetings and talk about problems that all art faculties have been dealing with since nineteen fifty-six and not getting any answers at all. I go to faculty meetings and no one ever talks about teaching. And I wonder about that and I'm still waiting to meet the first person that says they can't teach. And I don't know. I'm just sort of… I'm in an isolated kind of situation right now. As far as artists use information, by the ton. They need lots of information. More, and more, and more, and more information. I mean they eat it up. Now I have… now I'm having to go elsewhere for my information. I have to… I do, I leave the community. As far as productivity of my art goes, there's a lot more happening because I have to drive to Atlanta to find out what's going on. And I have to go to Chicago. And I keep six or seven shows going so that I remain active as an artist. To get the information I have to read more, which is not fine, I mean, I probably should have reading more anyway. I have to… I find myself seeking out things that were available in the William James situation. I have to find somewhere else, and they're spread all over the place. [Barbara] Did you find being at James absorbed so much of your energy you weren't as active in art as you are now? �[Clover] Yes. My involvement at William James was a much more intense teaching situation than I'm currently involved in. Yes I had found myself using the majority of my energy in the James situation. [Barbara] Do you resent that? [Clover] No, I don't resent that. I consider that a real growth process for me. [Clover] I was genuinely burned out as far as creativity goes, when I came to James and that kind of experience gave me a renewal that I'm using now. [Barbara] Well, it sounds like it worked out alright for you that James closed. [Clover] Pardon? [Barbara] It sounds as though it was opportune that James closed. [Clover] No, I don't think so. I think that I would rather have that and less art involvement. I mean it was very important for me. Or I'd like to have some of each. Or I would like to have the opportunity to jump out of the James experience, be an artist, for a while, and jump back in. Which would have been ideal. [Barbara] Can you see ways that students needed the structure… let’s put it, forget the way I asked that. You said you're isolated. How are the students different under the current structure of James? We've been talking a lot about your feelings at James, but what about the people coming through? [Clover] Well, the students were actively involved in the total process of the evolution of the James experience and through community meetings and interactions with the disciplines there was a lot of student involvement. The difference I think is that there was a more complete… for the James student, it was a more total involvement in what living is all about, rather than jumping from specialty to specialty or from building to building. And there seemed to be a relationship there and interaction that doesn't take place in a traditional education. My students come in for three hours a day and then they run off somewhere else. [Barbara] Goodbye. [Clover] Goodbye. Whereas at James we were involved, you know, ten, twelve hours a day. And I knew what they were doing and I knew who they were. And I knew their joys and I knew their troubles. [Barbara] Therefore could teach them better? �[Clover] Sure. Of course. They knew me. I was willing to tell them about me and they were willing to tell me about them. [Barbara] Why did you ask me if anybody cried? [Clover] I don't know. I have a real sadness about the closing of it because it seemed to be an expanding structure, whereas traditional education expands much more slowly. And it’s very difficult to communicate across disciplines in a college situation. Very hard to get their attention. They don't listen. Seems like, you know, whatever the popular education mode is the time, an example, computers, I mean where the interest goes. And there's a great expense to people who think a liberal education is important because of the jumping around from disciple to disciple. I'm sure in ten years it might be something else. I have no idea what it might be. Who knows. Restaurant Management, Nursing, all career-oriented stuff. I talked to a nursing student the other day in the faculty lunchroom: the Oak Room. Which I swear I'd never go into. Because somehow, I thought that it was better for me to eat with the students because we could interact that way and they would know who I am. Now I go to the Oak Room, my friends go there. This girl was talking to me, she butchered the English language, I corrected her, she was embarrassed. And I asked her what level student she was and she said she was fourth year nursing. And I said Lord girl you need to learn how to speak the English language. And she apologize all over herself. And somehow it leaves a void in me when I run into people like that who are supposedly getting an education and I wonder what happened. How did she miss English 110, how did she miss literature, how did she miss writing? And it's not required for her? I think that she leaves us in ways that will hurt her later on. I think that she could have a better life. I think she could be a better decision-maker by being multi-disciplined. Or at least multi-aware. Aww man. So that what I think William James is about. [Barbara] [Inaudible] of shit. Nobody said that. Not one person has said that. [Clover] It pisses me off, it does. [Barbara] What? [Clover] It pisses me off that people categorize themselves and limit their experience. I can't stand. I don't know any of the philosophy people here. I don't know any of the historians here other than ex-William James people. I don't know any of the English people, other than Robert Mayberry. And Ros. Is Ros in the English department still as an adjunct person? Committed lifelong adjunct. And they never come by, you know. But then again, I never go by either. So, who knows, you know. So, it's just these isolated pockets. I go to all college faculty meeting and the politics are so involved that there is no exchange of information. Pure politics. And it seems to be some kind of, I don't know, I find it really interesting �that for the salaries, for the amount of money that people make in higher education, that they are that cutthroat about their interactions and relationships with others. It all seems to be territory protection. [Barbara] Do you think that happened at William James College? [Clover] I don't know. It was like it was not allowed, or it couldn't happen, or the nucleolus of faculty was all small. And the fact that we were all thrown together dissolved that. And it also… outside pressures forced us to us stick together. And we did, as much as possible. I think we really did. And the, you know, the exchanges of information in the James situation. I mean it's, you know, I'm not trying to make this all sound like it was a glorious, wonderful, la la la la la, whatever. It wasn't. It was intense. Oftentimes unnerving. You know, a willingness… my biggest problem was the willingness to listen to other people and what they really had to say and trying to figure out what they're really saying and then deal with that in a reasonable manner. It's not my nature to do that and I was forced into that, and it was super. And I watched that happen to the students. The place allowed you to shoot your mouth off and make a fool out of yourself and people would still back you. Which was kind of neat. I guess while I was there I didn't feel like I really had to protect myself, career-wise. Or I did not have to be as careful what I say or what I do. Probably in that case, you know, when you have that kind of feeling there's a better exchange of information between you and the people you're dealing with. And I don't know and I also I felt a certain kind of protection. I felt like I could go into a class and say what I and can talk about what I felt I knew at the moment, or what I know, and not have the kind of kick back or reaction that I would have in students who weren't oriented in that way. A lot of misunderstanding and I find myself being more careful in class. I don't swear anymore. I gently tell people… I gently try to tell people what it's like to try and be an artist, rather than, maybe I'm not as pushy or demanding. I don't think. Something happens, you know, something happened there. Yeah, we used to just, I don't know, it seems to me like you know, we used to just really it. Get down on what trying to make a drawing is all about. Or what trying, you know, dealing with design principle, what it's all about. And I guess the students, they intuitively understand that we were trying to help them and did not… whereas in the standard kind of teaching situation, it seems like a lot of people come there to be offended. And they're looking for that, and they're offended easily. And they complain. And you end up in the chairman's office, trying to explain what you were trying to do. And it seems real crazy to me that I should have to justify being what I am or what I'm trying to express. And I think these are real cheap shots of people who do not have much background or who really don't understand, and maybe don't want to. Or at least, I don't know. I don't know if the opportunity is there for them to understand. Seems like the schools are afraid of the students. I mean they're so afraid that they aren't going to have enough, that they are going to fill the classroom. And we're told that, you know, numbers are important and �we keep cramming in more and more numbers and there's less and less interaction between us and the students. And it's kind of sad. And I guess I understand the numbers game, the numbers mean money. [Clover] But maybe that's the wrong way to go about it. Maybe you should risk it and maybe you would have the numbers if the information was flowing correctly. [Barbara] We did in the Media Department. We did. [Clover] Yeah, yeah, yeah. We still do. [Barbara] We still do? [Clover] Yeah, like crazy, you know, which is really neat. And I really feel really bad about that. I feel bad that the Art Department at Grand Valley State College is separate from the Media Program is just absolutely ludicrous to me, and it was a pure policy. It was a numbers game. And some of us who happened to be titled artists lost. And we were thrown into an Art Department. Whereas we really preferred to have the whole thing evolve as a cohesive group, and I certainly hope that could happen. [Barbara] [Inaudible] the sculpture now? [Clover] Sure. [Barbara] Is there anything else you want to say? I think we're near the end of the tape. [Clover] No, I, you know, I miss it. And when I walk, you know, I walk across campus and I see some of ex-faculty members of William James, you know, I kind of feel like, you know, God, I used to really know this guy and feel like I really knew him in a professional way and now I don't, you know, it's slipped away and that's too bad. So, we all… we meet each other shake hands and say how's going it and everybody says is going just fine. And I guess it is, you know. Life goes on and it evolves. So, what? Life's a bitch then there's death. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_19_Clover Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Clover, James Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource James Clover interview (2 of 2, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with James Clover by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. James Clover was an art instructor of William James College and a renowned sculptor whose work can be seen on Grand Valley State University's campuses, including the "Heaven and Earth" sculpture located in the heart of Great Lakes Plaza. In this interview, James discusses how William James College was an "information exchange" for its faculty and students, the importance of working with a community of diverse backgrounds, and the eventual separation of the Arts and Media concentration into two departments at Grand Valley. This interview is part 2 of 2 for James Clover. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Art Study and teaching Interdisciplinary approach in education Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5760583b925689b2c98d5d980573c065.mp4 6b249415649bc6696649acb6b04500ae https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fd7d786f3cbf7cce24d046644f115567.pdf bdbcedba3ba569a7d63b12f04669892a PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: James Clover Date: 1984 Part: 1 of 2 [Clover] You do edit this, right? [Barbara] Of course, I do edit this one for you. Tell me, sum up in one sentence, you've got one sentence: What is the essence of William James College? [Clover] Interdisciplinary experience. [Barbara] What does that mean? I'm not sure. [Clover] It means that I got to rub shoulders with a whole lot of folks, all headed in different directions, and we exchanged information about our directions. [Barbara] Hi Dallas! [Dallas] [Inaudible] [Clover] And it was- I don't know. It was a willingness of a group of people to come together and try and understand what each other- what we were doing. What each of us were trying to do. That opportunity to talk about it, compromise. [Barbara] Did you come here to be in alternative college? [Clover] Yes, I've been in alternative arts school, but I had no idea what an alternative college would be about. And the first year I was here I stood around with my mouth hanging open. I did! I didn't- I don't know. I guess what William James did for me was it helped to make me listener. [Barbara] What do you mean? [Clover] I was so into being an artist and being an art teacher that it seems to be that art information was what I was primarily dealing with and I found out that I needed outside information to support my ideas. [Barbara] Like what? [Clover] [Laughter] Like what? Like anything. Life. Anything at all. I think when I came here, I was pretty, as far as art information goes, I was pretty burned out and I �needed to make contact with other people, with society as a whole, and the throwing together of many kinds of people in the William James situation gave that to me. [Barbara] What did we do wrong? [Clover] I don't think we did anything wrong. I think that we were, that the people… you mean administratively, what did we do wrong? I think that people didn't understand what we were trying to do. And maybe it was our fault that we didn't communicate it to them, or maybe they just didn't want to know. I don't know if that's a really good answer. What did we do wrong? I think we did… I don't know. Maybe we were in the wrong place [Laughter]. [Barbara] Okay, um- [Clover] You know, I don't know. I mean, I can sit here and talk to you about this and as soon as you get the camera on, I get strange. [Barbara] Well, don't get strange. [Clover] I know, I'm trying try not to. [Barbara] You're doing a good job, you don't look strange. [Clover] Well, I'm trying not to get [Strange Noise], you know. [Barbara] Now, that's strange. [Clover] Okay, well you know what I mean. [Barbara] Don't worry, we'll make it through this. Some people think we weren't doing a quality education for some of the students. Some of the students just slid through and didn't do shit. [Clover] Yeah, but see I think that's alright. I think it's okay to slide through and not do shit. I think that's a choice of the individual you know. If they don't get turned on during the process, tough. I think the same thing happens in the structure that we now operate under. And -it's just a different kind of symbol that's all. There are symbols there that say, you know, you did this, this and this, you then can slip by on C's and everything's just fine. It's really easy to get the C symbol, and we eliminated a symbol. I didn't see any problem with that at all. Because [Noise] you know, the people involved in the structure wanted it made use of it. It was there, they learned how. It was very creative. �[Barbara] So the key to what we were doing that people didn't understand was that we were inter-disciplinary. [Clover] I think so. I think that people never bothered to find out and you know when some kind of attempts were made to find out what we actually did… you can't drop in for thirty minutes and make a judgment on what's going on here. And I think that there should've been an element of trust involved. Just, you know, based on the experience of the group of people that are gathered together in William James they should have trusted us and said: "Hey, you know, they aren't stupid. They must be willing to do something right. I mean why are they here, you know? They're doing something, it was going well." It's a farce actually. I don't know. We were outnumbered, politically. We were never able to establish ourselves because it was a numbers thing, you know, the credibility thing. Thirty against how many? � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_18_Clover Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Clover, James Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource James Clover interview (1 of 2, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with James Clover by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. James Clover was an art instructor of William James College and a renowned sculptor whose work can be seen on Grand Valley State University's campuses, including the "Heaven and Earth" sculpture located in the heart of Great Lakes Plaza. In this interview, James discusses the essence of William James College, his experience transitioning from an alternative arts school to an alternative college, and the misunderstandings surrounding being interdisciplinary. This interview is part 1 of 2 for James Clover. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Art Study and teaching Interdisciplinary approach in education Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7962b21f3a15519a3b68f8f811286896.mp4 5d202f75883c15c76b0e22bcbebad4dc https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c285beec6f8420828ed242015cf83a9e.pdf e25b52bb7f9e3ed342ed743fa74286c2 PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Dahleen Menning Date: 1984 Part: 2 of 2 [Barbara] We are rolling. So nice. Such a nice shot. Anyway, we are rolling [Inaudible]. [Menning] Okay, I thought a lot about whether or not we gave the students a quality education. And I think we gave a lot of them very good education. I think we get a lot of them a minimum education. But I'm not sure that that's different from any other kind of college. And that’s the thing that I keep coming back to. And I think about what we gave our students and I think about what I got from a very important major university traditional education, although I didn't have a liberal arts education, I had a very specialized art education but I had their traditional distribution stuff. I also learned some intangible things from my university situation that weren't planned, that taught me more than the things that were planned. And I thought about that many times, that the things that had happened to me, particularly as a graduate student, that were not supposed to be part of the program but taught me coping skills that made it possible maybe for me to even teach at a place like William James. And I think that we gave students a lot of coping skills that were kind of side by side to coursework that they probably drew and maybe continue to draw on more in some ways because life is like that and the real world isn’t [?] a place as a university or campus settings. And so, I think of students struggling to help organize the college, and early on particularly struggling to fight for a course they wanted, struggling to argue their program through, in some instances, and try to defend why it was worthwhile for them. Those probably were good experiences for students. I think that we let some through that were non-thinkers. But they get through every place, even Harvard has some of those, I think, there's people I guess with a minimum they can do, and manage to, you know, pass things at the minimum level. So, every place has students that can do the least possible. We certainly had some. But I think that we were a challenge to students, particularly when they came to graduate. I are used to tease them, and still do, there's a few that are still finishing up this last year, that just to get out was the real test. If they can get their program approved and they can write about it intelligently that in spite of all. And that was sort of an extracurricular academic activity. It wasn't part of a regular course in spite of the fact we tried those various courses about building your program. I can't remember what they're called now, so that obviously didn't stick in my mind that well. But we did try to make students write something about their program and the ones who really struggled with that I think learn some things that were intangible that probably serve them well. And the fact that they had to get out there and maybe generate their own internship, or they actually were part of �council and that they learned how to argue a point and present their case and hold their own against some fairly strong voices that were articulate. They learned coping skills and how to work with people that were different from themselves. And when I take a look at some of those former graduates, I think, "Wow!" [Menning] Those people are doing well in the world and what is an education? And then we start to talk about deep philosophical things. Is it a mere smattering in a smorgasbord way of a certain amount of history, philosophy, English, all of those things? Or is it really learning how to learn, and enjoying what you're learning, and then in life you get around to it in turn as you begin to discover what you want to learn. Which was part of the initial goal of the college was that you would learn what you needed to learn. Well, we never really quite had time for that in four years. It didn't seem that it was time to learn something and then discover that what you needed to go forward you had to go back and learn this. That most students needed to progress through much more quickly and in a more orderly fashion. But that's how life is and that we all continue to learn things that seem important to us because of what we bring to it at that time and I think that a lot of those students that we graduated learned that. They learned that learning was fun, that there was an exhilaration to learning, that it had work attached to it, on occasion, for some people. And that was the value. And I think that because the systems were very loose there were a lot of people who escaped. And we let them escape and sometimes we had a few good arguments about some of them, and there were tears in the hall, and a few loud voices and things over a few of them. But those seem to be the exceptions. I think that by and large we gave a good education to the majority of our students. I would say probably seventy percent got probably a more personal considered education by teachers who cared about them in person, rather than them as a group, who knew their names personally, who can call their name in the hall when they met them going down a hall, and they had a more personal interaction with all of your faculty than they probably would have had in almost any other setting I can think of, other than a few similar alternative colleges around the country, on our campus, and elsewhere. That they had to maybe even confront the fact that we did know who they were in class. They couldn't hide behind a number, or seat, or an alphabet alphabetized row. That they were responsible and even though they didn't do well sometimes and they knew they weren't doing well, they knew that we knew it. It wasn't something they can escape exactly, so they had to own up. There was a certain honesty and fessing up for what was accomplished or what wasn't accomplished. And I think that was good. Even when we didn't somehow strike the right number with the right personal time, because we didn't, clearly. And toward the end I thought that the students, in general while they wanted to learn, they had a different attitude about what learning was about. And the whole thing changed quite radically there. Not just in the courses and in my own teaching, but in my opinion, in the advertising and in the way that we set up the programs. We �started to really pin the stuff down. What they had to study, some of which was good and some of which wasn't. And I think in some cases it was good because students needed that and in other cases it probably damaged a few. And so, I think on both sides there were good things and bad things. [Menning] But I think certainly the education, in my opinion, would measure up to almost anywhere, particularly for the student who grasped it for themselves took hold. [Barbara] If you had to sum up what made James in just a sentence or so…? [Menning] [Laughter] If I have to do anything in a sentence or so I'm sunk. When I think about uniqueness, as a college, I guess independence is the word that keeps reoccurring in my mind. Of all the good things that happened, the best thing happened when people took things into their own hands and then did it. Now both on the part of students and on the part of faculty that occasionally caused some abrasion and some fireworks but things got done for that individual. And the independence and then generated on the part of everyone built a better person, in my opinion, and I keep thinking about that. Integration was another one of the buzzwords that flew around a lot. But I like the idea that people took initiative, and they did things on their own and they didn't always ask first if they could, they just assumed that it was alright, and they went ahead and they tried things. That wasn't a sentence or two but that's… I think that's what sticks. [Barbara] Okay [Inaudible]. [Menning] I think one of the exhilarating things for me personally that I think contributed to a good education to students and to all of the good things that came out of William James was for me and my life was the first time that I had ever encountered a whole batch, a lot, more than one or two professional women altogether contributing to the whole in a way that really made a profound difference. In all of my undergraduate years as I thought back, I had only encountered three women faculty in the entire time none of which had a profound effect on my life. I didn't happen to study under them because of their discipline wasn't my choice. So, I only have them as a cursory experience. And I had never experienced a place where women were major part of anything, and all of a sudden, and perhaps this is where I got caught up for myself to, was a chance to actually do something and believe that I could do it, and that no one else bothered to tell me I couldn't, and nobody suggested that I couldn't. In fact, everybody said, "Well, of course you can." And that was a very heady time, I think, I had enormous respect for the professional expertise that all of those women faculty brought. And even thought I didn't get to know all them well, some of them left shortly and went on other things, there was a time there where you really felt that it was equal it was a totally egalitarian time where everybody's ideas count equally. It didn't matter who you were and it there was not an "old-boy" network that you somehow have �to plug into first. And that was one of the most exciting times. And I think that contributed to the students. The women students saw role models. [Menning] The men students saw that women were equals in this mix, and so they gave you due respect. And the attitudes were different and I noticed that immediately. And since the end of William James I have noticed a change away from that. Not in my own particular setting as much as I have noticed that around campus and other places, and I can see that that really is a very unusual situation. I think that is one of the exciting things that came out of William James. It had that wonderful sharing. [Barbara] Start take. [Menning] I think probably the one really seriously negative thing that was a thorn in my side all the way through was the tension between the two groups of faculty that I alluded to a little bit earlier. The, I think, the Arts and Media faculty particularly as a group, although didn't include all of them actually, but the people in that group who made things and who are very pragmatically oriented, and then there were other groups of people, the other body of faculty who tended to not make things and didn't have that as their experience, but they read things and wrote things. And we approach life differently. We approached organization differently. We approach things differently. And I never ever felt the kind of respect from the group of faculty that read and wrote things that I felt I should have an artist person who made things. That came out a number of instances different tilts that we had by and large. I think it affected how we resolved things in the college. Those two groups would very often line up on different sides of the issue. We could’ve almost expected to never agree on certain kinds of things. And consequently, may have contributed to the ending of the college or may not have. Tension is dynamic and wonderful in certain instances and then it's just destructive and I think that it had its destructive moments and then it had some dynamic excitement to it at that point. And so, it was both bad and good but we didn't ever resolve how to be different together and I wish we had. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_17_Menning Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Menning, Dahleen Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Dahleen Menning interview (2 of 2, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Dahleen Menning by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Dahleen Menning was a faculty member of William James College who taught studio art and developmental art. In this interview, Dahleen discusses the quality of education students received in William James College, the independent spirit that unified the community, and the personal impact of having strong female representation within the college. This interview is part 2 of 2 for Dahleen Menning. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Women in higher education Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4d60f6a4a26d054225de2696f4872cbb.mp4 67a82aa8f7df39fc812e6cadd27de972 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/657d7614ad54fd0d3e6db113db6ed194.pdf 9891caf345f4bf376c4fe20404ce1b80 PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Dahleen Menning Date: 1984 Part: 1 of 2 [Menning] Okay, it's hard for me to think back succinctly over almost nine years since we began, since I came. I came, I think, the second year of William James. Actually, it was the third technical year, but the first-year faculty weren't teaching and I was hired the second year that faculty were teaching. So, I saw it pretty much from the time it was a tiny, very tiny college to right up to the end. It kind of went through a growth period and then had loss some students. And seemed like that even though at the beginning we were struggling with so many things: places to have classes, all kind of very basic functions of just getting the teaching job done. There was a real excitement at that point to the students and the kinds of interactions between the different individuals, the faculty and the students, and all the parts that go into to making a college, that didn't sustain itself all the way to the end, after nine / ten years. The memorable things from that early time, besides having my office in a tiny basement, squalid place, was the real independence and assertiveness of the students that would come to you and say I want to do XYZ and here's how I'd like to do it and they had a plan. They thought it all through. They were able to pretty much assess what they would need to learn and how they would go about affecting this whole thing in their lives and could see down the road and it was a very exciting thing to see that kind of independent thinking. Now we had good dialogues and some bad dialogue. I remember with students that used to argue, just for the sake of being argumentative, about their projects, their particular work, their process, but most of the time it was a really exciting, stimulating dialogue of growing and sharing, and those are the times that I remember best with the most affection I think. There was an exploring feeling amongst the faculty, as exploring feeling my student and even when things didn't go well bureaucratically for some students, often times they get hung up in the records office over procedures, those things didn't seem to bother them. We'd roll with the punches, we'd go over and straighten it out and sometimes even it was even funny and a bit humorous and we all enjoyed that. It was part of the reaching out and exploring. The students that I remember most clearly from that particular group were really wonderful creative artists that I had in class, that in spite of the fact we didn't have a traditional art program at that time, they seemed to grasp the necessary things that were necessary to the art world, and they put them together and integrated in with everything that was happening at William James and they wanted to be part of the whole thing, and yet they could retain their independence as artists and I found that very exciting and very mature and that is what I thought was the ideal and I thought we lost that about sixth, seventh year, toward the very end. �We didn't see students that exhibited that kind of independence. One that usually sticks out in my mind took us through the whole art therapy program deal because that was initiated by student who came into my office and planted her feet and said: "I want to be our therapist and I think I can do it here. Can I do it here? Here's how I'm going to do it." And I took a deep breath and said, “Well, it looks like you can probably do it here. Let’s see if we can.” [Menning] And we actually put together an art therapy program for her that involved internships and involve psychology courses, the art courses that she needed, she had to take a few things over in the College of Arts and Sciences, but by in large she put together a very strong personal program to study art therapy with the resources that we had in the college. And that was my first real introduction to internships because my particular persuasion in the arts is not an internship related thing. In the fine arts there's not much you can do. You can't really understand the painter. So, I had to go out and generate internship placements and this student went out and she and I found them. We persuaded people to let her try. It was a very ticklish situation because it involved working with people in a clinical setting and she lived up to the promise. She was very mature, she handled herself beautifully, and she set the pace and then right after her and I have no idea how students seem to hear about it but they came out of the woodwork and they found out that we were doing something with it and they want to do it too and it wasn't very exciting thing and integrated the coursework from the social sciences and from the fine arts and seem to be what the college was about and that represented I think one of the nicest ideals. And we had a group of students that went through, in the art therapy program, we didn't really have one, but they devised their own programs, more or less, and most of the students that I've kept track of have gone on to graduate school one way or another. Some by taking time off to work locally in various social service agencies around town, some of them rose to administrative positions in social service agencies and went on to graduate school, some went right away. But they all seem to make something of themselves and they all seem to use initially what they decided they wanted to do in the context of William James College. And that seem to be one of the shining examples for me and out of that discussion with a student came the class that I was the most excited about in the end, as an integrated thing, and that was the developmental art course that I taught initially, I think with Willard Bradfield, and then I taught it on my own, changing and developing and actually integrating practicum into that, plus studio experience, plus theory and it was a very involved kind of course and the students came through that course were clearly changed in their approach to things in life. And that was what was really exciting to me. That that one course made a major difference in those students in their entire life. They saw things differently, they saw how they could affect change and people even if they were never going to do it quite that way, even if they were never going to be in the classroom or if they were never going to do art therapy, in particular. They all saw that there �were methods for taking theory and then applying them and that if you learn something and used it you could make something else happen and it was a very powerful thing for me to see that happen, I think I learned a lot, and I change a lot of my own teaching philosophy from that. It was a give and take situation with me and the students. [Menning] They wanted something, ask if we can provide it, I was one of the providers, I learned, developed my teaching ideas, developed a course to suit their needs, they responded to the course they went on to do other work that was a companion to that course and went on and graduated and did something important. And that seemed to be a whole example of what the college was supposed to be about. Then later on we tried to deal with this art therapy and make it a "program" and we tried to pin it down because people got nervous about it. People, you know, college, and people across campus because it had clinical associations nervous that we wouldn't do it right or we'd damage somebody and so on. And the whole thing got rather tight and everybody got into it and then got out of it, and then we dropped it. But there were I guess three, four years there where it seemed that we really were able to do something important with students with the nucleus of the few classes, and a few faculty, and a few student working together and learning and teaching each other. Now that was one of the most memorable experiences that happened over a process of several years. There were others I think that we're maybe a little less outstanding in there William Jamesian-ness. There were students and classes in just the art courses portion of the arts and media programs that I saw do actually marvelous things and brought to class a personal integration of what they were learning in the college but didn't have such a strong identification with any one group of things and there were individual students that classes from other individual faculty and have very good dialogues with those faculty and with me and that we knew each other and had and shared that but it didn't happen in such a programmatic way. [Barbara] Then what happened? That happened a lot and then what happened? [Menning] Well, it seem to me that about the fifth, sixth year the students changed quite a bit in their independence, and they became less assertive and less self-directed and didn't seem to want to struggle with why am I doing these things this way and answering questions for themselves and they became more interested in the how should I do it and their focus and classes changed radically. I felt a real difference in their need for different teaching styles. Much more emphasis on what needed to be done coming from the teacher. Much less willingness to explore a personal route. More willingness to work hard sometimes I think, an eager beaver attitude toward let's get the work done but you tell me what the work is and the students initially were more interested in defining what the work was. And so, my teaching style changed quite a bit. I noticed that my, well first of �all, I start writing syllabi for courses, finally. Some of them are fairly loose syllabi. Certainly, wouldn't pass muster to some of the things that end up writing now. But nevertheless, I had to make a plan and follow through. I started to have to have rules about attendance. One of the other things that happen I think was we got a lot of bureaucratic nonsense laid on us that had to do with money. We had to have more students in our classes. [Menning] And all of a sudden confronting thirty students in a studio class changed the dynamics from when we have fifteen or eighteen. And it made a huge difference in how you approach them as individuals. You couldn't talk to them at length and so you had to treat them as groups. So that may have changed. And I think the times changed. There wasn't as much interest in sympathy toward an independent way of thinking and striking out on your own is there was initially. So probably a whole bunch of influences put together changed it radically for me and I found my interest the last two to three years, particularly the last two, it was very hard to sustain my own interest in that the teaching became so different that I started reverting back to more of a disciplinary approach in my own field more of an art approach that sustained my independent interest because I had lost that feeling of group. I think the faculty got a little large; was hard to maintain that cohesiveness amongst faculty. Then we did lose some faculty as programs were cut. But it seemed a little big at the end and I think maybe we outgrew what was possible to do in that same sense. [Barbara] Okay, we are rolling. [Menning] Alright, as I've put a little bit of distance between the close of William James and my own life, a number of things have passed through my mind as they have everybody, I'm sure. But there were obviously more than one group within the college, amongst the faculty, because there were different people coming from different kinds of backgrounds that had different experiences and they tended to cluster somewhat because it's only natural that you speak and commiserate with people and have a similar background and a basic understanding in the same way. And so, there were a group obviously that were centered around somewhat the arts, or at least a more applied way of doing things, and sometimes they were technological way, sometimes there are simply practical ways of getting things done. And then there were people who did a lot of the thinking and the reading and sometimes we didn't always agree and we tend to find a schism I think between two point of view very often and how to approach different issues within the college. And those are always interesting times for me, all the way through to college, but in hindsight as I look back on that; I've thought about the fact that I learned an enormous amount being a faculty member and this kind of college, perhaps more than I contributed, although that isn't the right way to say it. [Menning] But I had to stretch and reached to learn from the frame of reference of others �where they were coming from. I had to read some other books I had to look for the philosophy and understanding of what we were about, and I didn't have a similar thing to contribute in a way that seem to fit the discipline of the arts is kind of a singular process and as I tried to enter that world again, the one thing that has struck me and sometimes with a certain amount of anger and resentment and then sometimes the feeling well we choose a life course and it takes is on a route and then we accept what we getting and then we change back again sort of a live and let live attitude. I oscillate between being somewhat angry and its okay type of attitude that the growth that I experienced didn't take me down my professional path very much. It took me in a sideways way where I learned an awful lot of things. I read a lot of books, learn how to work with people that were very different from myself, learn how to appreciate their values and what they had to contribute. I'm not sure it was always mutual, and it took a ten-year hunk out of my professional life in terms of my own growth as an artist. And now that I'm reentering that world again, I find that frustrating, and sometimes threatening, and the anger builds because I didn't maintain the contact with my field that I wish I hadn't done in hindsight. It didn't seem important in the first few years. The rush of building a college was very strong. The excitement of integrating the need to talk a lot with other people and why we were going to do it this way and that way and work out some systems and build these classes seemed so all consuming that I lost personal side of my own goals. And then I began to find them again, but I didn't have an easy access route to affecting those. I didn't have a studio space. There was no academic support in the college for me to do my thing. I noticed that in particular when it was time for me to take my sabbatical, there was no money for me and the excuse was that I hadn't been doing my thing and therefore I didn't get to have money to do my thing. It was sort of like they haves got and the have nots didn't get, you know. And I felt somewhat cheated because I had done all these things for the college, for William James, the greater good, thousands of hours of countless committee work. And yet there wasn't fifty dollars in the budget for my own artwork based on the ground that I had and stay current. And I've thought about that and I thought that was unfair to this day, but I wish that I had stayed current and in hindsight I would have tried to find a way and maybe insisted on it. If there had been any other way to do the college I think that would be the major thing I would like to see change, would be to have some way that would insist that the faculty stayed current part of their own field so that they didn't lose that. And that might have retained the excitement for me, to bring that back into the college and into the mix. Maybe I went dry. Maybe we all went dry. The times were definitely different toward the end. But the initial excitement was lost, and when I came to the college I was fresh from a large body of work, my own personal was high, I wanted to share all that wonderful stuff with everybody. But then I wasn't doing it and after four, five years of not doing it there's nothing left to share. [Menning] I think I had given all that was inside of me and then it got kind of flat and I really �had to work to sustain it, and I guess that's for my teaching changed. The students were changing. We were all changing and the times are changing. But I would like to have done more with my work. I wish that the college had then sustained our own professional work now. They arrange for studio spaces for the College of Arts and Sciences Art faculty. That should have been done for the Arts and Media faculty. That we should have been given studio spaces. The adequate funding, recognition for work. That should've been done for everyone. We should have been encouraged to go to conferences, exhibit our work, retain the professional identity in our field. And that maybe would have made a major difference. It might've been the difference between the college closing and I don't know, there's so many intangibles there, but it certainly I think would have given me a sense of self-worth that was starting to wane toward the end because ourselves got so entangled up in the whole that was hard to find us. I had a hard time finding me in the end. And I guess that's why my own interest started to lag and that I started to seek way to find me again, which was to naturally revert back to where I felt strong in the beginning was in my own field. And that's both good and bad, you know there's not a clear-cut run answer to that. But now that I'm back there I feel whole again. I still have things to share that I can share with other people and like to do that. But somehow there was no balance at that time. And maybe that was the one failing aspect of the whole endeavor was that we went overboard trying to build this thing and then they maybe ten years wasn't long enough for us to have the bounce back time and then to come back to the middle and level off at some point. We got cut off for whatever reasons maybe a little bit too soon. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_16_Menning Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Menning, Dahleen Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Dahleen Menning interview (1 of 2, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Dahleen Menning by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Dahleen Menning was a faculty member of William James College who taught studio art and developmental art. In this interview, Dahleen discusses her overall experience being a part of the William James community and her most memorable moments including teaching a developmental art course and the growing student interest in Art Therapy within the Arts and Media concentration. This interview is part 1 of 2 for Dahleen Menning. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Art Study and teaching Art therapy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0dbcd9eb2f3a0905003b937456a2e1ef.mp4 e3b91bd830b4f3f8a8cdb18cff034451 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/390893e8e36e05f242f6226cee559100.pdf 26ab1abf35dae767206f34371d3c7a03 PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: David Rathbun Date: 1984 [Barbara] … talking about three things that stuck out in your mind. [Rathbun] Two or three things. I came to William James in 1981, so I didn't have much time in William James. But my first recollection: my first council meeting. I sat down in the skylight room with this group of people, most of whom I didn't know yet, and during that meeting there was a debate between Robert Mayberry and Steven Rowe in which the two men were arguing: Socrates versus Aristotle. And I thought to myself: "My God! Someone still cares about this stuff." And I remember going home and carrying on a good part of the evening about what an incredible place this must be where faculty people, instead of sitting and bickering about small, petty stuff, argued from real philosophic basis. What an incredible place. That's one of my favorite memories of William James and one of my earliest memories of William James. I also remember the ordeal of interviewing for the position here. I think my first meeting was at eight o'clock with Glenn Niemeyer and I talked to people the entire day and the entire evening and finally finished with Forrest Armstrong at one thirty the next morning. Pretty incredible ordeal. Makes a lot of sense as I got another place in retrospect. Another real strong memory in my mind, and again it’s a fairly early meeting, was in a PCC meeting in which we we're discussing the changes in the photographic curriculum. And the facility needs through [?] needs. And I remember there was a room in the basement which was in question about who ought to use it and clearly the film and video people needed for room, clearly the photography people needed the room. And Deanna and Barb said: "We will give up that room. You need more than we do." And it was a kind of generosity again I had not encountered at any other institution I had taught in. The ability to put aside one's self-interest, one’s immediate needs, in the interest of the larger program. I was impressed. I hadn't encountered that. [Barbara] Let me stop your train of thought slightly while I check everything because I couldn't [inaudible]. Let me zoom in on you a little bit and then we go on. If it’s not interrupting you too much, I would like to know why you think this was all so different. Don't answer yet because I have to get the shot… Right now, I have the shot. [Rathbun] Okay, in the past, at the Institute of Design, which is a pretty remarkable place. decisions were made on the basis of politics. They were made on the basis of narrowly defined self-interest. Your sense from beginning to end was that you better be prepared to scramble and scrap for everything you were going to get for �your program because nobody was going to give it to you. As a result, there was an attitude and the feeling among the faculty of distrust, of suspicion, people were constantly tailoring their behaviors and looking over the shoulders to make sure the right people are watching and that the wrong people one right behind them. [Rathbun] I don't recall ever sensing that at William James and I think for me it was one of the extraordinary aspects of working with a group of people that were the faculty and the last two years of William James. The sense that people really cared about what somebody else was doing. That they wanted to share and making it good. That they were willing to put time and energy and sometimes give up things that they need is in order for something else good to happen. It was not my experience at the Institute of Design it was a very different kind of faculty. People who were not very generous particularly with the resources, or with their time, with their giving to students even. [Barbara] But there must have been structural reasons for all this. What structural reasons can you analyze? [Rathbun] Well, I think one of the things that made William James such a delightful place, for faculty, was that it really was not a competitive environment in the sense that we had to compete with each other to succeed either within our programs or within the institution. The fact that we didn't have merit raises, the fact that the review process was not punitive but was rather something that was intended to help us understand each other and to grow with each other. The fact that we met weekly in faculty meetings, that we knew each other and we knew what was going on that we had some control over our destiny in this building. I think all those were important aspects of that feeling of collegiality and community. That is not that way in very many places. For me it was probably the most extraordinary teaching experience I've had the two years that William James was here. The freedom to dream, the freedom to pursue the dreams, the freedom to share your dreams with colleagues, the willingness of colleagues to dream with you, to be a little bit crazy at times when it was appropriate to be crazy. The sense that things were possible, and it that was good to pursue those possibilities. It was a feeling that pervaded this place. God knows it was no joy to come to council meetings every Friday morning. There were a number of times I would prefer to be sailing around the lake or something. But it was never really a problem to come to those meetings because we were doing something. We were making decisions. We were assuming the responsibility and we were doing a pretty damn good thing with our programs. [Barbara] Let me change the [inaudible]. Wonderful, very clear. Very clear. Very Clear! You're dark on one side your face but I like it. You know what I mean? It’s not dark, I like the naturalness. �[Rathbun] Now, I'm not sure, maybe you should ask me some questions, if you want more specific kinds of things. [Barbara] You were very specific then. I pushed a little on your work. [Rathbun] Because those are… that was the sort of thing I was thinking about saying was those two events, the room generosity from you and Diana. I don't remember the first one now. It’s a good thing you're taping this. And then just the sort of overall sense of what an incredible thing this place was. [Barbara] There are two things that I'd like to ask on the basis of what you said already. You said you taught very well and it’s not clear to me why one would teach better. I can understand why one would be happier as an individual. But why teach better? [Rathbun] If you think that being happy as an individual has nothing to do with teaching well – it has everything in the world to do with teaching well. At the Institute of Design, I never felt support particularly from colleagues or from the administration. That began to chip away and erode my commitment to the place. The more times I was worked over, the less excited I became, and the more I had to turn to purely an internal discipline to keep things going well. And I did that, but it was not with great effort. The feeling of support of collegiality, of sharing both a destiny and also shaping that destiny was absolutely vital to feeling good about teaching and being here and being with students. [Barbara] Were students different? We just have a different breed of students here. [Rathbun] Its apples and oranges. It's difficult to compare. We're talking on one hand about a very expensive private school in Chicago that draws a national constituency of generally wealthy and well-educated students. As opposed to a state college that draws essentially from one area within the state. But the differences I think ultimately are sort of superficial. They have remedies. The biggest difference was simply one of experience and visual literacy Those kids in Chicago have seen a lot and the kids initially here haven't seen very much. Even allusions to people as like Edward Weston drew blank stares when I arrived here. It was changing. The William James students were different in the sense that they were much more aware of what they were up to with their educations, I think, for the most part. I remember when, in the last year of William James, when there was all this rumors and talk and almost every day brought a new scenario of what the reorganization was going to be like. I remember that Provost Niemeyer appeared at a student forum in the Campus Center and there were probably a couple of hundred students who were there. It was interesting to me as I looked around the room that good percentage, perhaps the majority of those students, were William �James students and that the questions that were being asked the hard questions, and the appropriate, questions were coming almost uniformly from William James students. In that respect I think William James is doing something very well for students, making them understand that they had responsibility for their education. [Rathbun] That they had the right to ask questions and to expect answers about their educational experience and about what was going on. And they were asking pretty intelligent questions and Niemeyer wasn't entirely happy about that. He squirmed a lot. He clearly wasn't pleased with some of the questions that were being asked. But it occurred to me and watching that whole thing transpire: that if really interested in an educational experience for students in which they understand that they have control over their lives was working here, he should have been tickled that those people were asking those kinds of questions, because it meant that their education was working. [Barbara] Do you remember what they were asking? [Rathbun] I don't remember the specific questions, Barb, I just remember that during that whole discussion the questions and seem to be right on the mark, that seem to be the right questions that students ought to be asking, the William James students were asking. And it was not entirely comfortable for the administration to have to try to answer those questions. But it was precisely an indication of success in the educational experiences that students were having here. [Barbara] Let me ask you this but let me change the shot and zoom. Woah, that's darker zooming in. Okay, good. I want to ask you: this is all very well to talk about how we taught them to ask the questions, but it didn't save us. What could have saved us, or what was your experience in the process of closing James? [Rathbun] Well, it's all too easy in retrospect to understand that nothing could have saved us, short of moving the school somewhere else. And it's hard for me to really understand how all of that transpired Barb because I wasn't here during most of William James. I had really sort of one good year and then the second year, which was the last year of William James, everything was in turmoil and up in the air. I seriously doubt that there was anything significant the faculty could have done, or the students could have done. I think the decision was made, I think it was simply a matter of how to implement the decision and dissolve the units. And I think after that happened the degree to which there was hostility, it was like someone turn on the tap, it was like packs of dogs were being held at bay and suddenly been released and it seems so unnecessary. [Barbara] Tell me, that's too vague, I don't know what you mean. �[Rathbun] Well, the attempt in an early discussion in the School of Communications to eradicate all evidence of William James having been in Lake Superior Hall. The suggestion on the part of some faculty from a previous unit that the portrait of William James be painted over with post-haste, with great haste. That's the right way to say that. [Rathbun] The articles that appeared in the Lanthorn characterizing William James’ students and faculty as some sort of malcontents. Things which under a healthy old division probably would not have been printed suddenly were popping up all over the place. It seems clear to me that the decision was made and it was only a matter of how to work it out with the least damage from their perspective. [Barbara] Do you see any organizational or other holdovers from James in the new structure? [Rathbun] Well, I don't see very many and I'm so busy that it's hard for me to look very far away. And I thinks that's one of the problems of the new structure. Certainly, we don't have the kinds of collegial possibilities that we used to have. I think it's clear that those holdovers or those instances where the William James philosophy carries on are to be found in individuals, and mostly individuals that were in James, although it is interesting that there are other faculty who continue to be sympathetic and espouse certain ideas. And I'm not, again… because I wasn't a part of William James from the beginning and for years and years and years, I don't know whether I am really Jamesian in the sense of wearing a badge. I think that I'm interested in intelligent educational experiences for students. I don't think of myself as trying to teach them something. I think of myself as a fellow traveler with them. I think of myself as someone who is growing with them, and what I try to do is provide environments and experiences which hopefully allow the students to learn something. And I think that maybe is a part of what William James College was about at its best. I think it's just damn good teaching and I think wherever people are teaching in that kind of way, where they understand that they really are involved in this with students and perhaps at best what we can do is try to create a series of experiences from which students can learn something. And I think that's living. I think it continues to live. But I don't think you're going to find it in any particular unit; I think your going to have to look at individual people. [Barbara] I'm out of questions. Do you have anything else to say? [Rathbun] I don't think so. I mean, I can stop at this point. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_15_Rathbun Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rathbun, David Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource David Rathbun interview (video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with David Rathbun by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. David Rathbun was a faculty member in William James College who taught photography in the Arts and Media program, and was a longtime professor and founder of GVSU's photography program. In this interview, David discusses how he started his journey with William James College in 1981, his initial impressions of the WJC community, and the extraordinary experience he had being a member of its faculty. This interview is part 1 of 1 for David Rathbun. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education College environment Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c443869eceb4bed54e91009309fe299b.mp4 3a610d14cc1c7700293092fa4979116d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7249ef2c51d4d95fbcb17d5425c0c653.pdf 8734a38be9f7aa2d3155a9d6e972b3bb PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Robert Burns Date: 1984 Part: 3 of 3 [Robert] My nose out in the bright sunlight. Have I got to…? I can suddenly see it. [Gerb] Lean forward. [Robert] Yeah, so maybe I'll… [Gerb] Go back a little bit. [Barbara] … powder my nose. [Robert] That'll keep me going for another… [Barbara] White balance [speaking to camera operator] [Gerb] I don't think you need it. [Unknown] … need makeup? [Gerb] Makeup? [Barbara] Alright. [Robert] Perspiration! [jokingly] [Barbara] Alright, where we were is where we need to start. I guess you need to start that answer again. I asked you to talk about the Byzantine Bureaucratization. [Robert] One of the things that I found most appalling about William James, and I say this with all the love of parents for an abhorrent child of some kind. I couldn't believe what bureaucratic structure we conceived for ourselves. I mean it had to surpass anything that ever occurred in the times of Byzantium. We had committees for every conceivable purpose under the sun, and yet all we were was a faculty of twenty to twenty-two people at most. We had devised so many parallel crosscutting categorize kinds of committees that met for special purposes. Because they met for special purposes they always excluded, by reasons of timing, other kinds of people who might've easily sat in on the conversation. Every time a committee finished it was met in the corridors with hordes of people who needed �to find out what happened that committee. So enormous amounts of time wasted not only in committees, but in filling other people in after the committees had met with the kinds of things that transpired in committee. We watched such an unwieldy group of twenty that we couldn't work these things out in the larger community. [Robert] I mean we had our community meetings, our council meetings, meetings of the whole, and a lot of these kinds of things could've been solved there. [Barbara] But then we had students. There wasn't just twenty of us. We gave students an equal vote. So, it’s a much larger group. [Robert] There is possibly another of one our mistakes. Because I think we lean so far in the direction of according students a role in governance, that we forgot for a moment that we were actually faculty and there was nothing discriminatory about meeting occasionally as faculty without students to come to certain kinds of conclusions that we might easily have come to in that fashion. [Barbara] But that wouldn't be pure. [Robert] No, that wouldn't have been pure, and we were for purity, you know? There was – at that level of simplicity – there was a kind of a search for mom and apple pie at an academic level that we never really quite got over. Or we didn't quite grow beyond it enough. [Barbara] As I was… [Robert] We were committee structured to a point that was quite ridiculous, I think. We were twenty-two people, at most, and yet we had, at certain times, as many as seven-eight-nine-ten different committees going. As if it were possibly that many kinds of purposes that we would've had available to talk about. Each one of which called for a separate slate of individuals to meet separately and to work out some kind of a policy for the college is a whole. Granted, there are cultural differences between James, and Australian bands, and peasant Alpine communities. But I can think of no Australian band, and no Alpine community that can't figure out ways to organize the lives of five hundred, six hundred, seven hundred, eight hundred people in vastly simpler ways then we put together. [Barbara] But they've been around for a thousand years, and we were around for eleven. [Robert] Of course, that's exactly-- that's exactly the explanation. We hadn't been around that long. we were worried about being understood by those who spend enough time reading us or reading about us to know what we were about and we hadn't even been around each other long enough to make sure that we all spoke the �same vocabulary. I mean this was really, from our own internal point of view, the logic back-up, all of this constant probing and testing and fussing with the language. Because what we were really trying to prove was that we understood each other. [Robert] That there was no point on which we couldn't stand up and finally, in a very relaxed and matter of fact way agreed that we occupied a common footing. But there were suspicions, there were doubts, and all of this kind of stuff I think led to this over commitment of time. This over zealousness in pursuit of minutia, and I think anybody, from the outside world, than we ourselves later on in the wisdom that comes with the passage of time, look back on some of these things and think: "Oh my God! Three months taking up discussing that particular issue from the time of this inception to the time where it finally got established in council as college policy." And how insignificant that all is in the long run, when it's related to the fact of the nonexistence of the college at all at the present time. [Barbara] Katie are you thinking something that we can ask him? [Katie] No, not at the moment. [Barbara] Gerb, are you? [Gerb] Mn-mn. [Barbara] Robert, how about you? [Robert] I'm not at the moment. [Laughter] [Barbara] I don't think it's necessary to go back to that thing that you blocked on. I don't think it is at all central, we just let it go. I just won't use it. [Katie] Yeah. [Barbara] Just got off on personal… because I know you're listening; I see you reacting. [Katie] I wish he'd been able to continue with when the tape ran out. I liked… [Robert] There was a way I then… that I couldn't quite get back into that… [Katie] [speaking over Robert] …it made more sense... it flowed… [Barbara] But it made sense this time? [Katie] Yeah, it did. �[Gerb] Okay, now rolling. [Robert] We came from a lot of diverse directions. Points of the compass to get to William James, and we came - probably more of us that would care to admit – at moments of crisis or even mild desperation in our lives. [Robert] Where we really despaired of things in the larger society taking the turn that we would have liked to see them take. I mean -there were so many issues that the sixties had spawned. Everything from civil rights, to women's liberation, to the whole problem with the Vietnam War, and what there was or wasn't of an academics participation in that agreement to it (resistance to it) or what have you. A lot of people that found their way to William James, I think for public and private reasons, had wound up despairing of various academic situations in which they'd found themselves previously. Despairing of what they took to be some of the larger outlines of American education (educational structure) and came to William James to find an alternative, to build an alternative. On the other hand, you don't assemble that motley a crew of people. Motley in the sense that-And this doesn't refute what I was saying earlier about the level of intelligence that I think we brought to the enterprise. I think that we were all very bright, very concerned, very committed people. But I think we came from such disparate backgrounds. We came from such a variant set of our own special bleeding wounds. That one of the very special things we had to touch base on, and reassure ourselves about in William James, was that there was some commonality to our wounds. That our wounds could be shared. I don't think— That may sound like a very anomalous and strange way of putting it; because never once did we sit around talking about ourselves and so many walking wounded. Though, in fact, we were for variety of real intellectual reasons. We were a set of walking wounded. Because it's only if you have encountered things of that kind that you have come to your senses, and packed up, and moved out, and sought to find something different. But we had been wounded in different ways, and one of the things that we worried about was that the special wounds would either get in the way of our being able to carry out our mission; or the special wounds would prevent us from seeing the legitimacy of somebody else's special wounds. I don't know whether this makes sense, and maybe I can figure out a way of saying it more clearly, sometime. But it made for a certain amount of enthusiastic embracing of one another, and then simultaneously in a 'schitzy' kind of fashion, a certain mutual suspicion of one another. Which is one of the reasons, it seems to me, that we spent so much time fine tuning the rhetoric. It would've been no need to fine tune the rhetoric as an instrument to demonstrate our purposes to the outside world, beyond a certain point. Beyond a certain point, we were proving certain things to ourselves. We were justifying our own approaches, rationalizing our positions, trying to define ourselves in relationship-not to the outside world but to one another. �[Barbara] Where did the students fit into this? [Robert] They didn't fit into that part of it. In fact, if I'm correct in what I'm talking about, this was an activity that we did not acknowledge even to ourselves. I'm just simply, after the fact, being analytical about something. [Robert] And I've never really talked about in these terms to anyone else. So, I would be prepared to discover that colleagues disagreed with me on my choice of words, or even on my choice of schisms, or problems, or definitions. But I think that there was an amazing amount of disturbing suspicion within William James. It's part of what lay behind the concoction of a code – a kind of rhetorical code that we employed in talking about the college, and about its purposes, and about our positions with relationship to that purpose, and about the relationship of students to the purposes of the college. And we spelt this out in terms of the number of buzzwords. [Barbara] Like? [Robert] I can't even think of one. I can come up with them if… I can supply that at another time. Just my memory bank on buzzwords is sort of closed down momentarily. But… [Barbara] Oh, surely you can think of some? [Robert] Well, I can't at the spur of the moment. We had lots of them. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_13_Burns Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Burns, Robert Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Robert Burns interview (3 of 3, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Robert Burns by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Robert Burns was a faculty member of William James College and longtime professor at GVSU who taught anthropology and photography from 1973 until his retirement in 1993. He was also notably the father of documentary filmmaker, Ken Burns, who found inspiration from his father's photographs and travels from a young age. In this interview, Robert discusses the diverse directions that brought individuals to William James College and the common ground shared within its community. This interview is part 3 of 3 for Robert Burns. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/07cbe5eceb73b64e701b5be0f32161b0.mp4 b0455d82db8e7bfaabff15b946f1f700 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6dc69307eed3882095c19542e1b10bcd.pdf 0194f74eb90f261babb01cd42f625c65 PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Robert Burns Date: 1984 Part: 2 of 3 [Robert] You don't know when the curtain is going to come down. You don't have any idea about just how much time you've got left. You don't have any sense that you're necessarily that endangered. But when you look at it in retrospect the things we did, the things we didn't do, the things we might have done, and the things we insisted on doing. Then I think it's apparent that there are a couple things that we did wrong. Vis a vis the outside world. Like the campus across campus. We never spent enough time building pathways and bridges to the rest of CAS, the rest of the campus the way I think, in retrospect, it didn't make sense that we should've done. We spent so much time immersed in our own problems, in our own preoccupations, within William James that nobody ever really gave much thought to establishing the broader connections overland to the rest of the campus. Because what was clear is that when the crunch came, the rest of the campus didn't understand us. They didn't understand us at all. They didn't understand who we were, what they knew of us, they didn't sympathize with, and it seems to me that all those kinds of problems could've been… would've been alleviated if we had more of a sense of bridge building. More of a sense that part of our security lay in relating to them, not just ignoring them or even worse than that is estranging ourselves from them. Estranging them from us, and that's where I thought of it many times. We weren't as smart as an Australian tribe would've been about the kinds of overland connections you need to develop if you're going to ever have available an escape route to save you when the times come down to the crunch in your own territory. We didn't have anybody under those circumstances that was willing to understand us, and then that comes back to reflect home on what we did internally, which I think was incorrect. With all due allowance to the Monday morning quarterbacking kinds of things go on the time like this. Why didn't we make the overland connection? We spent much too much time polishing, and honing, and fine tuning our internal processes. We labored through all of our committees to perfect every single thing that we wanted to do, every single concept that we wanted to lay claim to, as if somehow this burnishing process was going to represent our salvation. It was almost as if there was some kind of cosmic onlooker who was watching us and grading us on the sincerity, the depth of profundity of all of our efforts, and so it made great sense to us to spend all of this time somehow coming to grips with the meanings of the propositions, the substitutions of prepositions, or conjunctions and the like. As if somewhere, somebody was going to look at this is of the Rosetta stone and fault us for having used the wrong grammar in the wrong place and it was the fault of gilding the lily. We were spending much too much time on the internal processes �than we should have. We acted all this time as if fine tuning the individual word of our own processes was the important thing to do. Without realizing that single word in the outside world simply cancelled us out once and for all when the time came. [Barbara] Why did we choose to do this? We are not all fools. [Robert] No, we certainly weren't all fools. One we all I think… however many routes there were to get to William James, we all came with one main idea and that was that they we were going to do good; we were going to do well doing educational things in a different mode. And we wanted to be very sure we were thinking of every possible eventuality. We didn't want it laid at our doorsteps that somehow we had overlooked the obvious. So, we kept reexamining the obvious, as if we were searching for possible flaws, failures, loopholes, and so on. Well that's either elitism of some strange sort, or this could easily also be the case it's a narcissism of an extreme variety. That we get so preoccupied with the being of ourselves and the doing of ourselves and the eternal expressing of ourselves that we forget that there's a larger context. There's an ecology in education, and if you're not mindful of the ecology, there are things out there, misunderstood and maybe rubbed the wrong way can return to do you in, or to do you no good. [Barbara] Do you want to try lifting the GV level, Gerd. [Gerb] Is it too dark? [Barbara] I think it's dark. [Barbara] You want to put it up one? Yes. [Gerb] Wait! Come sit closer next to me. [Barbara] Yeah? [Robert] Okay, I guess. [Gerb] Then turn this way. [Robert] Okay. [Barbara] Um. [Robert] Go on and say what you were talking about. [Barbara] If we paid attention to the outside, where would we get the energy to build this �nirvana that we were all heading for? [Robert] The energy would've been the energy that we brought to the enterprise simply by being ourselves. I mean, I think we always misunderstood… [Laughter]. Let me say that over again. I think we always misunderstood completely the amount of special energy that we needed to put forth. The fact of the matter was, that all of us, and all of our various ways, and all of the times at which we were interviewed and came into the college. In all our various ways, we represented people that somehow were seen to have some sort of useful talent in the new educational scheme of things, and I think our problem was that we never relaxed, and believed in the existence of that talent. We always felt that what we were called on to do is to put forth some kind of special brand-new effort, without ever realizing that the efforts that we already put forth (that attracted ourselves to the college in the first place) and them to us, was exactly what we should've kept on doing. We should've kept on being the people who were interviewed, rather than somehow trying to transmute ourselves into this new kind of educational being that, less and less people across campus, were prepared to understand. [Barbara] It sounds like a very negative feelings about your eleven years spent there. Is this the case? [Robert] No, on the contrary! I think it was something that you said earlier that made me think that. Now, what I'm getting into at this stage in the game, I suppose, has something to do with grief work. With the death of something that you were really attached to, you begin to look around for all the kinds of things that contributed to that death and you wind up occasionally faulting the system for a premature death. I don't think that's misplaced hostility. I don't think it is hostility for one thing. I think it's simply one of those turns that somebody takes you know uncomfortable circumstances when you're trying to cope with in an absence of something that you've grown to love. And you're wondering where it went? Why it forsook you, and then eventually come around to examining the warts, the frailties, and the flaws that you didn't see at the time because you were simply so busy doing it and being it. We have some vulnerabilities from the very beginning, and I can remember talking with Robert about this many times, and he got quite excited about one of my little characterizations. I started talking about the different years of entry of staff members into William James. As if they had been, in effect, generations. There was that founding generation of Robert and others who in response to whatever the call to glory was at that time came to be the first faculty at William James, and they had always seen it as their mission to think through the purpose of the college, and to try to state that purpose. So, they were constitutionalists in a way. They were writing us an organization platform on which the future college could expand. And the second generation, the secondyear staff, always seem to me to me the wheeler dealers, the actors, and the doers. �[Robert] The ones were going to put the dream of the constitution writers into practice. You had an enormous amount of energy, often times very aggressive energy, that was expended in the cause of carrying out, as they sought, the wishes of the founding fathers. And then that left certain problems for those of us who arrived in the third year. The third generation, so to speak, because we found ourselves not in on the writing of the constitution, and we found ourselves late by year in coming to grips with enacting the constitution, and it was as if the third year came in a little confused as to its role, and it also came in just a little bit suspect because neither the framers nor the doers were quite prepared to believe immediately at the start that this third group of newcomers – “upstarts” – could possibly really understand what they had produced and enacted. So, there was lots of skidding wheels. There were lots of burning brake linings. While those of us who arrived too late to be in on the founding, and too late to even set the stage for the enacting of it all to try to figure out what the new vocabulary was that had been created and how the things we did were supposed to fit in with that new vocabulary. [Barbara] For example? [Robert] All I can point to here, I suppose, in all honesty, would be my own confusion in my first year. It extended into my second year, as well. I thought I'd arrived to do a certain kind of thing. I thought the reason that I had been accepted after the interviews had something to do with my being the anthropologist that I knew I was. And I'd discovered that on arrival that it was as if nobody on the staff had any idea of what anthropology was all about. If they did, it was a purely intellectual understanding and it had nothing to do with the kinds of things anthropologist really say when they're being anthropological. And so, I just discovered over and over again, to my confusion, that anytime I attempted to be myself, an anthropologist, was a time that I could expect to be misunderstood. Either as to content, or as to motive. Either one of those. This is a little off putting when you think that your reason for being here has something to do with what you are, who you are and then discover that you're not recognizable. [Barbara] What did they want you to be? I don't understand. [Robert] Oh, here one strides into dangerous territory. You know, it's kind of stuff with hidden agendas are made and… maybe we need to switch to something else. Well, I can come back… I could come back to it, but I need to think about that one little bit more. [Barbara] Okay. So why did you come to James? [Robert] I had come to James for a lot of reasons. I had gotten thoroughly fed up with the �anonymity of the classroom relationships in the large university. I tried it at the University of Michigan. I tried it at Eastern. And I found that the only improvement that Eastern had represented over the U of M was that I was in charge of the class of two hundred in a section, instead of a class of four hundred. And neither one of them offered me any possibility of developing a personal relationship, a personal rapport with the students that I was talking to. I'd really felt that. Well, I had quit teaching for a year, and I had gone to Europe to think things through, and I'd availed myself of the fact that a number of my anthropological graduate students were in field work in Europe that year, to search and number of them out, and to face them with a simple question: What is Bob Burns good for? And the upshot of it was that I found… they reinforced the notion that a much smaller college setting and one with a much more experimental focus was the kind of place that I would be looking for. And I have to confess that there they were one leg up on me in that regard because I hadn't yet picked up on the fact that there were this many new experimental footings that academia had set out upon or had devised for itself. And so, I came back prepared to begin to look for kind of college that I didn't know existed at the time that I first began my search. I really thought I was looking for a nonexistent animal and instead I discovered that there were these precious few little institutions that had developed under cover under certain kinds of protective wraps in special environments and that probably one of these was exactly the little harbor, the little niche, that I was looking for. [Barbara] Could you summarize in a couple of sentences. Short answer. What you think the essences of James was? [Robert] The essence of James was really the idea of an unstructured highly personalized, highly particularized education to suit the needs of individual students. Instead of the sheep dip approach to education which is about what most places were involved in. Big distribution dipping, a little bit of history, a little bit of economics, a little bit of arts (to make sure we weren't absolutely illiterate) and all of this. Pretty much the same bath going on for all students whether or not it related to what they needed, or whether not related to their ability to pick it up at the moment that they took it. You know you can be dipped on these things and not absorb anything because you're not ready for it. Well, in William James I had the sense that when we function best what we did was to loosen up the structure these requirements. We tried not to let students get away without requirements in the broader sense. But we left the requirements assert themselves, express themselves, in their own way and in their own time at a time when the student was most ready to pick them up. And eventually students would wind up getting that broader education of which we all dreamt. [Robert] In which we all had ourselves, but they didn't get it by virtue of having had their noses rubbed in it. So, it was a gentler tact, which always made a suspect in the eyes of others who believe in scruff of the neck types of introductions to learning. �And in the end, it meant that their breath was self-paced. They got broader as they needed to, and our good students always eventually needed to. No system is perfect so we had our share of the determined educational ne'er-do-wells who will not get an education in spite of anybody's efforts to offer it to them the "right" kind of way. On a silver platter or not. We have those exceptions to the rule, and we all blushed privately and publicly when we think of them. On the other hand, all institutions have those kinds of characters, too. So, I don't think our batting average was terrible in that regard. I am just amazed when I think about the William James accomplishment. Of how many good students, great students, went forth from here equipped to do all kinds of things a little better, I think, than other students who might have to wait five/ten years maybe even beyond that to realize finally what their education is actually done to them and for them. Whereas I think our students left already knowing what their education meant. Precisely because they had had a hand in the organizing of it. [Barbara] Do you regret having spent eleven years at James rather than somewhere else? Now that they've closed it on us? [Robert] Oh no, [laughter] I don't regret a moment of William James. But as I said earlier, I was talking about the Monday morning quarterbacking, or the moments that…the real moments of anguish when you turn on something that you love and fault it for not having been better than it could've been, and that's just a simple part of grief. But no, I would not have traded those eleven years at James for eleven years anywhere else. They were exciting, they were exhilarating at times. All of us did feel as if we were trying to produce something great. I was just talking earlier about the extent to which we got too carried away sometimes by our enthusiasm, and didn't raise our heads enough above ground level to see just how threatening that external environment could be. I think we suffered from the sin of pride or vanity and maybe understandably so on the circumstances. Because we did seem to be treated as very special beings for a time. And that probably lulled us into a sense of security that we shouldn't have bought into. [Barbara] One more question. When I interviewed you before, you talked about comparing peasant society to James. Where we had twenty faculty who spent their entire time on committees. Would you reprise that quickly? [Robert] One of the most appalling realizations I ever had was the day that I looked at our little college. Our little structure, a score of staff, and maybe two or three more at one time than another time. [Robert] But twenty, twenty-two, twenty-three people. And what we had devised internally as a structure for ourselves was a system of committees -- of overlapping committees, of parallel committees, of separately meeting committees -committees which when they had met were immediately confronted in the �corridors by all the people who hadn't been in on the committee. Either because they thought they weren't invited because they were teaching class at that hour. But who had to find out what had gone in and what had gone on in that committee that day? And I kept thinking: this is an appalling structure, what a bureaucracy. Byzantine couldn't have been more crazily subdivided and categorize than this. And all we were twenty/twenty-two lonely little people. I mean, if we had been an Australian band or if we'd been an Alpine peasant village… � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_12_Burns Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Burns, Robert Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Robert Burns interview (2 of 3, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Robert Burns by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Robert Burns was a faculty member of William James College and longtime professor at GVSU who taught anthropology and photography from 1973 until his retirement in 1993. He was also notably the father of documentary filmmaker, Ken Burns, who found inspiration from his father's photographs and travels from a young age. In this interview, Robert looks at William James College in retrospect and discusses his thoughts on the endangered nature of the college, the various stages of grief he has worked through with its closing, and what the essence of "William James" really was in hindsight. This interview is part 2 of 3 for Robert Burns. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5712bdd95ac3044b29dd64ac87f5ee52.mp4 28fd7b65fab06820473952e87512fd54 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cd0e1ed6fa0ec1fa0450ef60c42aa9c1.pdf fe01e9a3bc007b0813b0e67cffc66d60 PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Robert Burns Date: 1984 Part: 1 of 3 [Barbara] [Working with the video camera] It doesn't look as well, skin tone is… it would just be a mess. I really wanted this. Oh, my is he dark. Let me see what I can do here. I'd hate to go to one six. That is just so… well, I think that this is going to be allowed. Let me just check focus. Let me make sure I'm steady. And I'm steady. And anytime you would like to resume I would be grateful. [Robert] Okay. I think it would be hard for an outsider to imagine how many committees we felt were indispensable to the running of our little college of two dozen odd staff. Their peasant villages that feel obliged to do some things in the bureaucratic way. They wind up doing it was extraordinary classic simplicity. There are individual tasks that are parceled out to a handful of individuals each year, each one he's in charge of a particular kind of activity. They carry out the duties of the office, and then they pass the notebook, which contains records to their successor the next year, and that successor intern then becomes responsible for the handling of that particular detail for the village. We always found it necessary to work with committees, which meant that every time a committee met there was an inside privy group to a particular kind of information. And we tended to not have very good ways of uniformly getting information from committee to the community at large. There would be the decisions, there would be the reports, but very little of the nature of the ongoing dialogue in committee so that occasionally committee results were unfathomable in terms of how they arrived at that conclusion. Typically, what happened whenever a committee met with that the corridors were full of all the little side conversations that we're necessary to be engaged in as different people came out of the woodwork to try to find out what it happened in that particular committee. It seemed to me that the single individuals could have been tasked… could’ve been entrusted to certain kinds of tasks, or that some of these things could literally have been handled in some kind of committee as a whole where literally everybody was going to hear the same information same time and not have to go through the business of asking for a duplicate committee reports one by one by one from any and all members of the given committee. [Barbara] But we were very well intentioned, and we liked each other a lot, and we had all selected each other, and we're not stupid at least not all of us at the same time so why did we persist in this? What structural advantage was there in this kind of super bureaucratization that made it last. �[Robert] I'm not sure that there's any other explanation for why it persisted, except that nobody felt that resort to individual responsibility for individual kind of task was anything other than a kind of an elitism that couldn't be tolerated. Things ought to be done in groups… in small groups for at least good democratic purposes. [Robert] But the small groups were in effect too small, and they always had an external environment of those who (one) needed to know the results but (two) weren't in on the meeting and then this enormous amount of time that was always spent after committees trying to find out how the results had turned out, what decision has been taken. What kinds of points of view had been presented, and the like. There was something I was going to say earlier about this. And it's not fresh in my mind at the moment. [Barbara] Shift yourself slightly towards the window and tell me the part about polishing. I don't mean toward the window, I guess I meant turn [inaudible]. [Robert] Oh, okay. Let's see what did… [Barbara] If you can recall it, not too artificially, we were talking the other day about one of our little problems being… a fine sense of sandpaper. [Robert] We always undertook to do things better than we had done them before, we always looked at our processes as if virtually anything we did. Anything we had done, could be done better if we: examined it carefully, profited from experience, and made the right judicious changes. This is a kind of thing that I've always thought of as polishing, and honing, and smoothing, and whatnot. We spent an enormous amount of time doing that. In one sense we've logically fall to the larger campus structure for having undergone major reorganizational upheavals every few years. But in another sense, we never ever settle down with our own processes inside, in a much gentler fashion, long enough to see how they worked before we were already predicting that they were not working, or finding evidence that they were not working, and then proceeding to tinker with them. So, although it was all carried out on a much more modest, much more gentle scale, and there were no big upheavals… still I think it remains that nothing that we ever tried stayed in place for very long before we found a better way to do it. And we didn't see this as reorganization -- frivolous or whatever. We saw it always “perfectionistically” as doing something a little bit better than we'd ever done before. So, we invented new ways and better ways of the new ways ad infinitum. And this gets to be time consuming, too. So, some of these processes – as I wind up thinking -- where processes had a life of their own. Once you're embarked on them, you follow through with them implicitly. Even if you have thoughts that maybe there may not always be for the best, there's a certain inertia that carries you forward. And you don't really feel it's fair to blow the whistle or to yank things to a complete halt for fear of being seen as a �disbeliever. Somebody who really doesn't belong in the system. Now realize, in this respect, I may sound like a peculiarly ambivalent character. Because on the one hand, I came to William James because I wanted to, because I found it to be an exciting place to be. And I always did, and I believed in what we attempted. [Robert] And I'm very sorry to find… to realize that it no longer exists. That's the part of it, that seems to me, like a death. But I wouldn't be honest if I didn't also say that I found our ways a little peculiar at times. What makes allowances for one family. When you're talking about a set of colleagues who are growing more and more like siblings with respect to one another every day. You put up with foibles because you know all these people too well to simply launch a political diatribe against them because they have failed to do this properly, or they haven't foreseen with the effects of that might be. You put it down to a longer-range type of problem which could be tackled over a considerable period of time. You understand we are all in learning positions, in learning situations, and that there are possible ways of all of us gradually coming to espouse a single point of view that we all share in some future. So, you overlook certain of the little points of potential… � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_11_Burns Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Burns, Robert Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Robert Burns interview (1 of 3, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Robert Burns by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Robert Burns was a faculty member of William James College and longtime professor at GVSU who taught anthropology and photography from 1973 until his retirement in 1993. He was also notably the father of documentary filmmaker, Ken Burns, who found inspiration from his father's photographs and travels from a young age. In this interview, Robert discusses the bureaucratization of William James College and its numerous committees, in addition to his belief in the college and his thoughts on its final closing. This interview is part 1 of 3 for Robert Burns. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Bureaucracy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a35c2d05aa6a1750dc3ab9311882bdc3.mp4 f5d4d2533eda1e30b2afc769d9ff0676 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/80acad654035dba4f8c8b2edaa8fc212.pdf 1a9a17cd2107f484430a80c8fc5540fb PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Tom Cunningham Date: 1984 Part: 2 of 2 [Barbara] Where were we? We were talking about growing... [Tom] Oh yes, I gather it was a crucial decision sometime in the second and third year of William James College faculty. Where they decided not to grow exponentially, you know, for a variety of reasons. They wanted to get to know each other. Each member of the faculty. But I think it was an unfortunate decision. At the time Grand Valley as in whole and in general was growing. And there's a certain number of faculty positions that are open when you're growing that become closed by the times. Not to grab hold of those faculty positions, for whatever good reason, means they are going to be closed to you later. And you will not have those choices to make later. So, it seemed to me that the faculty was deciding that they would be of a certain size and no bigger, and that's permissible. But it also meant that you had one college that continue to grow, College of Arts and Sciences, which would continue to have something like eighty/ninety percent of the of the students on campus. And therefore, all the other colleges, now two of them and then the third to start later, would define themselves in the shadow of that much larger college. Whereas the foundation documents of Grand Valley and the wish of the President was that you would have a number of colleges, each the same size. You can do the things if you are the same size. I looked to Oxford and Oxford University, where you have all your college and you're a Trinity College… they're pretty much the same size. The Trinity does not step over [inaudible]. They're members of a larger unit and they get service to the university. Each doing it in its own particular fashion. I don't think that ever took place here at Grand Valley, because the College of Arts and Sciences just ballooned. Whereas the other colleges I had to find themselves to be smaller for variety a of reasons, and I think that's an unfortunate. I think that eventually assisted in the demise of William James College. [Barbara] As we're on this topic, can you comment further on some of the reasons why the school had to be closed after only eleven years. [Tom] I don't know whether it had to be closed or not. But I do think that… why would it close? I suppose because most of the functions that it had been doing and then taken over by other units. It seems to me that William James was on its slippery slope when it gave up the Administration and Information Management program. I had never thought about computers, personal computers notion. I had thought of mainframes as John Kemeny at Dartmouth is associated with twenty-five �years ago. If I hadn't really known about the personal computers and could predict that, I would have invested my money and Apple computers and be a millionaire and not be here. But it was evident that the administration information management was a high growth potential. [Tom] For one reason or another it never achieved that here in William James College, and indeed, William James College allowed the computer personnel to be removed from it. That to me was already an indication that it was in its death throes. I think after that simply a matter of time. Why did it end? One can always look for scapegoats. There is a conspiratorial view history, with which I'm not in agreement, which says all of my problems are outside made. And even Freud knew that most of our problems are within me. And at James you would say that, too, I think. I do think that institutions survive – even if they're unpopular – if they perform a function. Nobody likes a prison. Not the prisoners, not even the people that work in the prisons. And certainly not the people that live next to prisons. Prisons endure because they perform a socially useful function. I think William James College, in the certain sense, died because it ceased to do that. Or at least deceased to do that in a unique fashion or in any cost-effective fashion. I don't have the data on cost effectiveness but one could look to that it seems to me. What I do think in the decision not to grow made it evident that William James would define itself in terms of a counter cultural college. In other words, it would look to and react against the larger college on campus. Whereas it certainly had the opportunity to be as large as the largest of colleges. So, I think in the great refusal it sealed its own fate. [Barbara] Many years ago you had certain… you did readings, and you had a philosophy on what would be important to found a college. Now, it's 1985. Would you do it the same way with the same rank order of importance to your decisions, or what would you do differently now? [Tom] Well, it does seem to me that college is still must fill a socially and personally useful task, and I think the tasks that were laid out at William James, however imperfectly, addressed or were attempting to address those issues. I do think that every agent, I mention from Babylonian age on, does look to service type jobs, does look to careers, I would say, in a variety of functions. In a variety of hierarchy, see. Careers in business, careers in psychology or sociology or whatever. I do think most of the documents I wrote to William James would be useful in assisting and founding any college. And I think that would be particularly useful in founding a college in our own day. One that would look to assisting. For example, that in Administration and Information Management. That was where most of the jobs would be for the next century. As far as any data showed. University of Texas at Austin is putting something like fifteen [inaudible] professors. A million-dollar chairs exactly in information management. Not that everyone who goes and gets a degree in information management will become a �computer specialist. But rather they will use computers. I think computers, which is simply another word for handling information, is really where the growth of American universities will be in the next century. [Barbara] What about the question of community though, and preparing this tape? What I get from our alums is a passionate attachment to this college. Because it fulfilled something that wasn't available to let most run the society. That's gone from Grand Valley, is it not? Can you imagine another college being founded in the near future? A small college that has this sense of community? [Tom] I don't know, I doubt it. I don't know why community has to be founded in a college-wide unit. I do know, for example, our geology majors in the College of Arts and Sciences in Grand Valley’s college now have always been closely knit. I think they're closely knit because their experiences on the digs. Our anthropology and our geology majors particularly are closely knit. I think something similar happens to our nursing group. Granted that there is attention there because only a certain number of spots are allowed for junior and senior years. But in anyone who shares an intense educational experience is an opportunity for community. I do think some of the community aspects maybe a function of the faculty meeting community more than students do. I think faculty come at a certain age, and you can go through community experiences at a certain number of times. But after all, if you're a normal faculty member you have your own family and that's where you will receive most of your community inputs. I do think that faculty require close interaction with students. I think that happens with majors, but I think the tragedy of American education in general, seems to me, is that the freshmen and sophomores are ignored, and the juniors and seniors majors in the field are prized. I think the inverse should be true. Freshman should be intensely worked with, that is where you develop community. And then the sophomores and juniors, they're around and they're your resources to talking to other freshmen. And I think that's what William James and smaller colleges tend to do. They have an intense experience with freshman students and that endures over the four years. I think in having large lecture courses in other colleges, for example, and now in Grand Valley in general. That sense, that opportunity for community is lost. So, I would say have freshman seminars, or perhaps even seminars directed to persons who might major in particular field as a freshman or plan on majoring. And you would have a community experience that could grow. [Barbara] Thank you. [Inaudible] I am out of questions, but I am not out of tape. Is there something else you would like to tell us? [Tom] No, I think you asked the basic questions. Namely how did it start. What occurred. [Barbara] I guess I do have one more question. Just something that doesn't feel real to me. �Lubbers asked you to do this. You say you did a lot of reading, but that cannot be the whole answer. How did you come up with this much this fast? [Tom] I worked… Isaac Newton was asked one day how he thought about gravity. And he said how he discovered the formula about gravity. He said by thinking on it [Latin?] day and night. I was working eighteen / nineteen hours a day for a period of three months. I have a picture of my newborn son who's born in September tenth, nineteen seventy. And he was lying on my chest. In fact, this jacket I wore when I interviewed with the President. I wore it. Well, my interview with the President (when he gave me those directions about the schools). Tommy was lying on my chest, and I was just sleeping between two o'clock feeding and six o'clock when I would get up. But I had been working steadily. I thought about education for forty-years. Twenty-years as a college student and university student. And it was a chance to put into practice all of my ideas. And I wrote them up because they were all of my ideas. I would also like to point out that Saint Augustine, someplace or other, says that most skills are learned in a short time when you're young or not at all. And I guess I wrote this material in a short time because I thought about it at great length under a period of many years. [Barbara] Quickly, what are your various educational experiences? [Tom] Three years ago I graduated law school. That was my ninth academic degree. I had studied physics as an undergraduate after serving in the United States Navy and Notre Dame. And, then I studied for the Roman Catholic priesthood and obtain six of my degrees. Three in philosophy, and three in theology. I picked up a doctorate degree in history science (medieval science) at the University of Wisconsin. And I think the degree I liked best of all is the master’s degree I obtained in education - history, theory, and criticism. That's basically what I do at William James College, was to lay out what I thought was important. [Barbara] Where is that master’s from? [Tom] From the University of Wisconsin. [Barbara] Wisconsin? Okay. [Tom] I did that University. One of the ways in which you see how ideas and science take root, is to see how they can transfer into a curriculum. In other words, Isaac Newton discovers gravity. How long does it take to get into a curriculum? That's what I did. That's why I majored in history, that's why I took a master’s in educational history. [Barbara] Okay. �[Tom] That didn't hurt it all. [Laughter] [Barbara] Thank you so much. That was very interesting. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_10_Cunningham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cunningham, Tom Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Tom Cunningham interview (2 of 2, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Tom Cunningham by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Dr. Thomas Cunningham was a faculty member of William James College and longtime GVSU professor who was credited with heading the WJC Planning Task Force that founded the college. In this interview, Tom discusses the growth of William James College and how it played a role in the closing of the college after eleven years. This interview is part 2 of 2 for Tom Cunningham. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories College administrators Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/11cc0a8c7e5a170862bd06db1a335596.mp4 762baeffba01ff425bc7b6b2631cfa49 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d38c0b5861c8395a12fc620aea8462ef.pdf 10d42c29a0b9e9ed96608dbafbfb09b9 PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Tom Cunningham Date: 1984 Part: 1 of 2 [Barbara] Okay, the first question I have for you then is: Why James? [Tom] Why William James? As the name of the college? Well, actually he was… I thought him last rather than first. I thought about the entire structure of the college first and the notions of the college should be. I think I'd coined the phrase… yes, in fact, I know I was. Coined the notion of psychosocial humanism, rather than scientific humanism, or more classical humanism to describe what I thought would be the appropriate type of curriculum for our own day and had also coined the notion of college should be future-oriented, and person-oriented, and career-oriented. It is evident that we didn't want to go around call me in College III, that was the name of the task force I was asked to head. And so, what name? It's easy to name something before it's founded, then to name it after it's been in existence for a length of time. College of Arts and Sciences had not gotten a name, and apparently would never get a name for that very reason. There are too many persons that had a stake in this name or that name. It's like guessing what name to give that before it actually started. I had happened to have been reading about that a year before that some works on William James. I'd read James twenty years before as a phenomena – as a pragmatist. But some works by John Wilde particularly. From the Universal of Cal… University Florida. He had been at Harvard and Northwestern, he's a phenomenologist. He had written a rather interesting book on James as a phenomenologist. I never thought a James in that connection before and so it occurred much of the ideas that I had. Mainly the concerned with psychology, even social psychology. And the concern of manufacturing your own persona. So, it was a natural but when I had thought of the materials concerning psychosocial humanism and the other things that I wrote about, even talked about the divisions of the college that would come about. The emphasis on environment and so on. I had no name in mind. But then when push came to shove, I thought we better get in name before the college we founded and James just came to my mind. I had a difficult time convincing the committee to go for that name, to tell you the truth. [Barbara] What did they want? [Tom] They had nothing in particular. But it just looked like I was doing too much. Someone wanted to name it after a guy named Maxie. I don't know I think it was a Maxi training school for boys in the Detroit area. Some had some frivolous names, I thought. But I think much of it seemed to me that I looked like I was �having too much to say. But I thought James was a natural name for the orientation that they had voted on and was only a matter of time before they came around to recognizing it. I said: "Yeah, it would be an appropriate name." [Barbara] Maybe you better go back. [Barbara] I asked the wrong first question. Tell me what the charge was, and how you came up with the notions for the character of the college. [Tom] Well, I had finished my first year teaching here at Grand Valley, and sometime in the late summer or early fall I received a phone call from the President. And I knew it was him because my wife was about to have our first son as it turned out to be. President found me and asked me would I consider heading a committee to found a new college. The task force was in charge – College III task force. My inclination as a first-year faculty, having completed my first year as a member of faculty here was: one does not lightly turn down any of the President's requests. And truth to tell, I always have been interested in educational activities. I have a master’s degree in education among my degrees. I'm history and theory of criticism of universities. So, I thought this would be a time to put my ideas, if I had any, into practice. But of course, I had asked the President: "What do you want? What's the charge?" And there was a written charge, and it's written in the documents. But I thought more revealing was a conversation that I had with the President. I had completed my first year teaching at Grand Valley, and was about ready to start my second, And the president had completed his first full academic year Grand Valley. And was beginning to do his second. He had become president about eighteen months previously. Basically, had obviously had to learn this terrain, and the existing colleges on campus. There were two at the time: College of Arts and Sciences, and Thomas Jefferson College; and having grasped that, understood that then the obvious for him, too. I say it's obvious now, looking back, was for him to look at the founding Grand Valley State Colleges and to look to what was considered to be unique in the colleges. So, I give him full credit for that. He first took charge of the colleges that existed and then he very adroitly moved to begin a third college. Grand Valley apparently had been founded to have four relatively similar size colleges. That was the founding image twenty-five years before. Each college apparently had two or three thousand students total of between nine and fifteen thousand students on campus. That was the notion on the colleges were founded twenty-five years ago now. So, he said to me: "I have two bits of advice." He said: "One of them is I want to college that would enroll a large number of students, and then I would also point out to you that we do have one small college here in campus. Thomas Jefferson College." I think what he meant by that… I didn't think to inquire any further the times. I think what he meant by that was that the College of Arts and Sciences, at that time, enrolled something like twenty-two hundred students. Thomas Jefferson college had perhaps two maybe three hundred students. So, �the time two college is one of which enrolled between eighty-five ninety percent of its number students on campus. The other college, because of its nature, seemed unlikely that would enroll much more than three hundred students. [Tom] So, it seems me he was getting me a charge to have a larger college, then Thomas Jefferson and it's possibly the college’s largest is the College of Arts and Sciences. That in turn meant that look and see where students who have to enroll from then try to excogitate from those factors the likely orientation of the college. So, it seemed to me that the College of Arts and Sciences seemed rather traditional. You could either duplicate that, or else one can attempt to make something different. I chose to do the latter and make something somewhat different. But yet stick to the President's charge. It was to make something that would be different than the College of Arts and Sciences. But make something that would also enroll a significant number of students. With that in mind, the whole thing was my fields my students were interested in. I majored in philosophy, teach philosophy, and since I majored in physics as an undergraduate, and have some degrees in physics, history of science I should say, it seemed fairly evident that the college should not focus on physical sciences. A number of people majored in physical sciences. Very small to begin with. They tend to be traditionally oriented and therefore one of the orientations that some of the committee members wanted, namely, to focus on environmental sciences seemed to me to be misdirected. I have nothing against the environment, I enjoy environmental sciences. But the sheer fact of needing to know, in any serious way, work in environmental sciences – you need to know biology, geology perhaps, certainly chemistry – meant that you were going to limit the number student who would major in fields like that. Feels like time since we had one college [inaudible] all about the sizes which had very few majors and those fields seem to have it and we were not in this particular area. [Inaudible] another college I would have… would be competing for the same small pool. So we're not being [?]. Environmental sciences, in my mind, should be the focus of the new college. It should contain that, it seemed to me, as a program, but not as a complete focus. Some had thought of focusing the college on the University of Wisconsin's Green Bay which is focused on Environmental Sciences. Others had attempted to focus the college pretty much on, as I would say, Thomas Jefferson College had been focused. Namely imitating Evergreen College in Washington state, as a possible way of organizing college too but it tended to be a small college, and therefore seemed to me that that would not obey what the President had laid down. So, the notion… once again I'm concerned about the persons and the focus on Evergreen College, and colleges of that sort aren't developing a person… seemed to me to be utterly and totally important and of grave concern for anyone in our own day. Where the sense of the self is more problematic perhaps than in previous centuries, and where the students who would come to us would tend to have a more diffuse identity than students at more traditional colleges. It seems to me that students come to Grand Valley as students in �general in our around modern age do not come from a [?] background, do not have what sociologists I think all described notions, rather they achieve their self. [Tom] And so it seemed that rather than having a college where one would fit in because one's grandfather had gone there, or because one was a member of a certain class. You would really have to have a college in which some opportunity would be provided to assist the student to grow as a person and that the notion of a person oriented it also cemented the notion in my mind of psychosocial humanism. So those two things work together. However, psychosocial humanism also borders on how one gets along with people in social context, not merely how one develops internally. And therefore, it seemed to me that one could use this facet to develop the person. To recognize a person's development communities. To recognize also that communities have functions to take care of and so, granted that the one focus or one division of the unit on Environmental Sciences. And another concern with Social Relations, it seemed fairly evident that Social Relations would have in generally a larger market for possible auditors than say-Environmental Sciences. However, Social Relations… there are a limited number of jobs. Large, but a limited number of jobs for sociologist and even a psychologist it appeared to me. But most of the jobs in our own age, and throughout history have been concerned with business. People seem to forget that. I happen to have degrees in history of science, and one of my specialties was in studying Babylonian clay tablets. They're about ten to fifteen thousand clay tablets, about as big as your hand with inscriptions on them. And everyone remembers, whoever studies the history science, those are Babylonian clay tablets which talk about astronomy. Or talk to some degree about how the geometry. Really looking on the… what do they say, the Pythagorean theorem. Square of the hypotenuse equals how many squares of the other two sides. It's a famous tablet that shows that in algebraic form shows these triads. But, as a matter of fact, of those ten to fifteen thousand tablets there's only about two hundred tablets which would be called scientific. There's another hundred two hundred tablets which should be called, oh, casual. There's this one tablet that I remember reading where this student is writing home asking for money. [Laughter] Fits in with what we normally think of student life. but leaving aside those for five hundred maybe a thousand tablets which have to do with what we would consider intellectual matters. The great plurality of the of the tablets had to do with a simple computation. Business dealings, they were business records. So, I'm saying in Babylonian epics, in our own epic, the tendency of society is to have business and social concerns or service concerns attached to some sort of records and keeping records. It seemed fairly evident then that, like it or not, the business of America is business. As one of our former presidents said, and therefore most of the jobs would be in business. So, I had the third and most important part of the colleges, it seemed to me, would be in what I named administration and information management. I like acronyms so it was AIM – “Aim.” I had also copied this, I must say from a professor at Dartmouth College �who later became its president, John Kemeny, a great mathematician. [Tom] So, it seemed to me that the largest of those three units with these administration and information management, and that would where be where William James College would have the largest number of those majors. I have to admit that's one thing I had not entered my mind was to have media group but, as soon as it’s proposed by a committee members I certainly assented. It seems to me that if William Shakespeare were alive and writing today, he would be writing as Lucas does or any of the cinematographers who would be writing for cinema or for media. So those four units seemed to me to fit in a nice package. Administration and information management being where most of the jobs would be concerned. Those who would work in such professions would learn about how to govern people, and how to govern themselves from such relations component. They would learn a deeper reflection on man from their emphasis on psycho-socio humanism. And they would also learn about the world in which they… members by the concern for environmental science. [Barbara] This may be a troubling question. Did you do any marketing research as they would be running around doing today? [Tom] Did I do what? Market? [Barbara] This came from your sense of things. Did you run out and test these notions? That this would be where the students were. [Tom] Well, in in a very indirect way. One of my roommates in college is a fairly significant, at that time, was fairly significant member of IBM Corporation. And I consulted with him informally over the phone. I also did read the literature. Seems like one of the easiest things to do rather than make your market research is to read literature. Much has been printed before by persons whom we could not afford to hire. So, I did a great deal of reading in what was written about universities. From the beginning and then studied particularly Canadian universities over the last twenty years. Because Canada underwent an enormous expansion between nineteen forty-five and nineteen sixty-five with their universities. For a very narrow base, classically oriented universities, to a much broader set of universities that was encompassing. That we're allowing for a person who never come to college to go to college. So, I did reading rather than having survey done. [Barbara] We're going to run out of tape. We have another tape it’s just that we just don't want to interrupt an open answer. [Camera operator] [Inaudible] �[Barbara] We have another five minutes? Okay. [Tom] My face was not very mobile, was it? [Barbara] [Inaudible] I'd like to ask. Would you say something briefly about synopticity, which seems to have started right away. [Tom] About what? [Barbara] Synopticity? [Tom] Oh, yes. That was actually--I liked that very much. [Barbara] And then your comments as someone from the outside do you think we grew in the right way or did we get skewed off? And then something about the courses that were working against the success of the college. If you have any observations on them. [Tom] Alright. [Camera operator] [Barbara] This is not the right tripod. [indistinct mumbling] [Inaudible] It’s not the right tripod. [Camera operator] Okay. [Barbara] So authenticity seems there from the beginning. [Tom] Oh, yeah. Yes, the synoptic lectures here. That was probably the third thing of which I'm most proud in attempting to develop within James. It seemed to me that the most difficult thing for a regional college is how to keep the faculty active. And it's for that reason I designed the synoptic program. The synoptic program I envision would be rather similar to actually what William James had done. In the gifted lecture series, that were later titled, “The Variety of Religious Experience.” A way to bring to a… to Edinburgh a matter of fact, in James' case. To bring to a campus a visiting dignitary who it in ten twelve days open up his entire mind and give you his view of the universe. And I call them synoptic lectures. They would take place here at Grand Valley. I recognize them as highly significant to the students. I think the most important thing you can do for students to give them a view of the universe. That it allows people to tie together in some sort of a fashion. The diverse notions they have and to make an intellectual synthesis to the degree they have as well. About their entire status, and the entire stance to the universe. But I really thought of it is crucially important for the faculty. Grand Valley State College is in the middle of the peninsula. Grand Rapids is a good �size city, but it's not a metropolis. [Tom] It doesn't have the resources available to it as Chicago, or New York, or Detroit. And so, to me, it seemed to be crucial to keep the faculty active; to have a variety of persons from the faculty over a period of years would pick. As becoming some master teacher in their field to come to campus and to enunciate to students at a common level, not a technical level. The great ideas the faculty had. And I was following a man named Jerome Bruner. A good cognitive psychologist. In fact, he was one of the synoptic lecturers I had invited, as well Jean Piaget, who said that: "One can always explain, in a decent way, any idea at a level that would be capable of being understood by a particular audience.” So, that was the whole notion of a synoptic lecture: to give us a view of the universe for the students, but also to give the faculty chance to plan ahead for the great mind that they would consider dominant in that field. Plan ahead for that person visit to initiate students in that, and of course keep the faculty active. So, in a sense, I was looking to the faculty. Students come and go after four years. But the faculty can be here for twenty years. And it could easily turn over old ideas many times, unless one had stimuli from such great minds. Such as Jean Piaget, or a person like that. [Barbara] Would you comment on your observation from the outside that the development of our college… [Tom] Well, I guess, I did stay outside William James College. I tried to start off as best I could, you know with the committee. We did the best we could to get it going. And then I thought once you hire faculty, let the faculty do what they considered best. And obviously the fact that they proceeded in the certain direction. I think I would express concern. Seemed to me that the faculty either did not understand or did not pay attention to what President Lubbers said and asked in his first year. Namely that it would be a large college, and that it would enroll a wide variety of students in a broad number of fields. It seemed to me that the college never put the personnel into any administration information management program that the numbers of students would justify. I think when the faculty decided for whatever reason, probably very good reasons – I was not a member of the committees at the side of these – that they would not grow exponentially. But rather they would only replicate. I think that was crucial. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_09_Cunningham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cunningham, Tom Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Tom Cunningham interview (1 of 2, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Tom Cunningham by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Dr. Thomas Cunningham was a faculty member of William James College and longtime GVSU professor who was credited with heading the WJC Planning Task Force that founded the college. In this interview, Tom discusses the origin of the name "William James College" and how the character of the new college was created. This interview is part 1 of 2 for Tom Cunningham. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Lectures and lecturing Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/414504e8b2b1a25b691357ee031bcde1.mp4 8b50623872c79a6ed0b59347afe9af58 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dff76c9144326b8e832dadb1fcaecbcb.pdf a48043e603338a344b6690f614f4e555 PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Jean Doyle Date: 1984 Part: 3 of 3 [Barbara] Could you think for a minute, if you had to sum up William James education-What's unique about it? In just a sentence. [Jean] One sentence?! [Barbara] Well, two. [Jean] I think the unique… one of the most unique features of William James education is that it was learning as a group project. And that I never heard from any teacher there that: "I have the information, I'm going to put it in your head." I heard from every teacher: "This is subject I really turned on about and if you're have turned on about it right now, I hope by the end of this experience you will be. And let's go!" And that was sort of an adventure spirit that I loved. I felt respected, like my mind was being respected. That I had a place to express my thoughts, think my thoughts, and find out what my thoughts were. And that's more than one sentence. But I think that's a unique feature generally. [Barbara] Actually that was more than one sentence… it's more than one thought. But that's okay. [Inaudible] Okay, I am through with my questions. [Jean] Okay. [Barbara] What do you want to say? [Jean] I really love the people that I met at William James. I think that's a large part of why didn't leave. Robert Mayberry is an incredible teacher. Ros is incredible. I tended to repeat their classes over and over. I mean, or you know, take their different classes because I was just so, you know, just so loving them. And Steven gave me so much. I can't… I wish I could think of how to describe it. Barry, sitting in seminar with him and there was almost a religious sentiment about it. The learning was so important. We were discussing in this one seminar on school and society things that were so important to us in that room. There was only four people in the seminar and it was rich, and it was good. There's just been times and conversation with people that, you know, you just bring them with you for the rest of your life. I loved William James College. I loved the coffee machine in the morning and going there and meeting with all those people who are so good. I can't talk right now. �[Barbara] Okay. Let me turn it off. [Jean] It's hard to… [Barbara] White balance again. [Crinkling paper] [Barbara] It's warming up. Come on thing, do it! [Barbara] First black people felt very close and why that had anything to do with education at all [?]. [Jean] I'm not exactly sure why people felt close there. I know they were feeling close when I got there, so I felt safe to open myself and to feel close to them. And it felt real good and it felt really different from attitudes that I had seen. And I was sort of developing this theory about the nuclear fear, the fear of nuclear holocaust, infecting people's minds to the point where they are driving their life like a car down the road. And they are isolated from other cars on the road, and they're going to this destination. They don't care how they get there, or why they're even going, but they have this point and they're going there, and the hell with everyone else. And at William James it was like we were in a big bus, and we were all going somewhere together. And it mattered where we were going, but it didn't matter how long it took because we were having a good time as we are going. So, we were happy. There was a family feeling and that did within the classroom allow, I think, for more freedom of speech. That you weren't so afraid of speaking your mind or of trying out a new idea because you knew beyond, you know, maybe this intellectual point there was something else you shared with these people. And you weren't going to be disregarded or heated or rejected from the whole group for expressing a weird thought. Now, as far as why community is important in education, I believe that it's because if you sit at home alone and read a book. And it could be a wonderful book, and mean a lot to you. And be doing all kinds of things inside of you to be taking this in, and that's fine. But if you have a book, and you have twenty copies of that book, and everybody's read that book, and everybody has their own view of it. And everybody's view is respected of it, when you bring everyone together to discuss it, there is something about the collectivity of the minds meeting and working together that I believe will open to wider vision. And the Jamesian sense of why we are here to share perspectives. Because having a community in which you feel safe to express yourself is so important if you're going to really do that Jamesian approach to learning, of having people's view of the whole coming together to make a larger vision. And that really seem to have hit William James. It happened for me and I learned a lot from my contemporaries and teachers and I believe we learned it in that way… by turning on each other's minds. And that you know people who are kind of dragging their feet got caught up in it, and it was contagious. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_08_Doyle Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doyle, Jean Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Jean Doyle interview (3 of 3, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Jean Doyle by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Jean Doyle was a student at William James College and a graduate from Grand Valley's class of 1984. In this interview, Jean discusses her overall thoughts on the William James education, in addition to her love of its community and adventurous spirit. This interview is part 3 of 3 for Jean Doyle. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8ee39a5b5414d9b1d03c17830572ef79.mp4 3a0edb7fa219c3623c7a772bb7e4894c https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d74c2ceee996f1cec1384a19e37b7f1b.pdf 601c8e0df1c3bbdf4c60d5bac40065db PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Jean Doyle Date: 1984 Part: 2 of 3 [Jean] Okay, remember… I believe it was my first year there, and I just met and fell in love with Claire Porter and Sally Labheart (?) I was finding so much strength and joy in the dance department. I was so happy. Dance was my, you know, it was just my thing. It was where I'd go and be away from everything, and just have what I needed, and wanted. I was learning a lot and it was great for my body. I felt real good. Then all of a sudden, I hear: Tom, Sally, Claire. All the people I thought were the highest of the high were being pink slipped, fired, let go! That the Performing Arts Center as a body was being annihilated. I just freaked out. I just I could not believe it. I thought: "Now this is the one thing that I found so far that's outstanding on this campus, that is excellent. Why is the administration, or whoever is responsible for this decision, afraid of excellence? Why are they striving towards mediocrity? What is it that they're afraid of?" And so, they left, and before it was finally finalized, we're going to have sitting around the library. And I thought well this is it, finally. My first sit in, and I'm so excited. We made posters and the day of the sit in it rained. About three or four people showed up, and it was just a real discouraging. PAC just sort of fizzled out, and it was gone. Those fine people left that campus and I still had room one twenty-one where the dance studio was is my retreat, and my sacred space. But you know, I didn't have the golden teachers to bring me to higher things. You know, everything I did had to come from inside myself. Christine is a very good teacher and a very good friend, but she was sick a lot. She just was really involved with a lot of things going on with herself. You just can't have one teacher and who can teach you everything. Because they, you know, she's… her expertise is in a certain kind of modern dance, and there's many kinds modern of dance. There's many kinds of, you know, everything that really need to be dealt with [inaudible]… [Jean] … would leave the profession because they can't make a decent living at it, you know. Tell you… that was excellence. [Barbara] So, why don't talk about the closing of James. [Jean] Okay, that was significant to me and number ways. I really love Barry, Robert, and Steven for the help they gave the students to deal with it. They spoke to us about different languages and that we couldn't just express our needs and our interest in terms of that we were familiar and comfortable in talking with and have that mean anything on an administrative level. That we had to take our terms and translate them into terms that would be understandable and acceptable. When �Stephen and Robert were advocating for this college at those meetings, I just felt like it was a new spirit of seventy-six where you know they were like Thomas Jefferson or something. Fighting for a new nation or a new state that ought to exist, that deserve to exist in its own right. That they were being very reasonable about it. [Jean] That they were passionate but dispassionate at the same time about it and they were at those meetings and they had their thoughts together and they had them organize and they had them put out in a way it could be understood by anyone, in any terms. It still didn't do any good. [Barbara] What meetings were these? [Jean] They were reorganization meetings, I think. They were going on in Zumberge Hall. It was like the year or so before the final verdict came down that we were closed. Do you remember those? [Barbara] Kind of. It all blurs for me. [Inaudible] Blurs. So, what you remember is, you know… [Jane] Yeah, it was, I believe it was there that they'd would, you know. They'd have to cancel class here and there even because the meetings were not arranged for convenience. They would go and come back. They'd look very tired and worn. But I know that they gave it their very best shot you know. [Barbara] But then you were talking about when the closure actually came. [Jean] Well, the closure came with no closure. I guess William James being place a where process was something that was espoused, was appreciated, was reveled in, was maybe drawn out too long, and every decision that was ever made there as a group took so much to do, but it was always worth it. When the closure came its sort of like there was no closure, there was no finishing, and it just sort of dissipated and that was very distressful to me. I really missed that. We had a William James (our last synoptic that while we were still in college) and it was one where a lot of alumni were invited. And Adrian came and I'll never forget she read this poem and I have a copy of it now. It's called "To Be of Use." It's beautiful a poem about, you know, what is the meaning of life? It's to be useful, and to put yourself into a task fully. There's a lot of other alumni who came back and talked about what they felt about the school and what the entire experience it meant to them. And that was the birth to the William James Association from that meeting. And so that was April when we had that synoptic discussion. Then in May, at the end of school, it was last week of classes. There was this meeting of the William James Association the first meeting and I almost cried when I was there because there had been two or three hundred students. And of those two �or three hundred students of the present time, myself, Linda Rogers, Henry Hardy, Mark Zepatowski (?), Ralph, you know there was just a handful of us there. It sort of seem like everybody just went "Well it's over. Okay, onto something else." You know, and that it didn't mean anything to them. [Jean] It probably did, but just at that moment it felt like: "Where are you people? What is your experience here? Where are you coming from?" And there was a lot of alumni there, and people who had really cared, but I think the rest of my fellow students were burnt out from all the haggling and fighting for the right to exist. We just sort of had reached a point of exhaustion and apathy where they just said: "You know, oh well. What are we fighting for? Let's stop fighting, let's go home." So that's, I think, where that boils down to. It was real disappointing and real anti-climactic. [Barbara] What was the funeral like? [Jean] The funeral was a statement made… Mark Zapatowski and his unique way conceived the idea of a film to document this whole experience. Which I really appreciated because it felt like there was someone in fact, a group of people, the [inaudible] who cared. [Barbara] I changed the shot, so you kind of just pick it up. [Jean] Okay. Anyway, Mark had conceived the idea of the system documenting what it happened through the whole devolution of Grand Valley State Colleges. And so, we got all of us together for this one shot. This one idea he had. No actually this is the original idea, and then it evolved into the starch blob (?) the whole documentation. But this is just a commemoration of the death of Thomas Jefferson College, which was the first of the murders on the campus. We all became very… using words like that. Like murder, assassination, annihilation--as if it were human bodies being knocked off because it was sort of death that was happening all around us all the time. And we were just… felt real wounded and so the funeral happened on a summer day. We had a huge box just full of costumes, and musical instruments. We were at the farmhouse, and we got all dressed up and we drove over to Grand Valley. We went to the Lake Huron Hall, which is where Thomas Jefferson used to be, and someone was filming from the balcony and someone from the street. We came around, and this procession formed, oh there was everyone there. There were monks, the barbarian, the sprites. It was a wonderful long procession of different spirits and characters. It was just… do you want me to tell you about the film not being there? [Laughter] [Barbara] [Inaudible] [Jean] The funeral was to sort of… trying to bring some closure to that very [inaudible]. �Nothing was said. There was no announcement made. It just became realities that suddenly this college didn't exist. And then they were doing it to William James, and that was in the works. [Jean] I think that's why Mark got the idea to it to make something about the finishing off of Thomas Jefferson College because nothing had been said. It just ceased to be, and we were realizing that we were in the process of having our school ceased to be. And it was a scary time, and so we wanted to say something. We wanted to point something out to thin air, if nothing else, you know. [Barbara] Do you see that commune, that was historically active closing James, had anything to do with the closing of James? [Jean] Actually, it could. Now, historically it was kind of concurrent. There were several incidences where people from this group, and also with SRX. Where they got silly and wrecked some stuff. And that can't be tolerated, on any form. I mean destruction of property is bad behavior. And writing things on the wall about people who look at it every day, it's not an intelligent move. It was real politically incorrect of them. I'm sure it was innocent; it was naïve, too. I mean they weren't realizing the implications they felt at that moment; that we were eternal and there was nothing that was going to hurt us. So, they could say what they want, and express their anger, and destroy things that belonged to people that, you know, they would like to spit upon. So, they did foolish things in that sort of young silly way. I think some of those things just was like: "Well look at these people!" You know, got generalized everyone. And academics were no longer looked at, and it was just that we were an undesirable element then. A bunch of destructive of brats or something. So, I would imagine it had something to do with the beginning of the process that eventually closed the school. I wouldn't be surprised. It's because it was sort of around the same time. So, I really don't know. Yeah, there was so much tension then. There was so much tension. Always fighting, and… there's a good, I mean, we were all politically aware and active, and we cared. Somehow things got taken too far, and the political activity just turned to destructive behavior. It was no longer political it was tantruming. [Barbara] That's an interesting answer. It hadn't been what I was expecting you to say, because I wasn't talking about trashing. I mean did you guys just go on and live communally? Oops, we're going to run out of tape. Live communally as a... � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_07_Doyle Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doyle, Jean Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Jean Doyle interview (2 of 3, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Jean Doyle by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Jean Doyle was a student at William James College and a graduate from Grand Valley's class of 1984. In this interview, Jean discusses her experience with the closing of William James College, the final WJ Association meeting, and the "funeral" that took place outside Lake Huron Hall regarding the closing of Thomas Jefferson College and William James College. This interview is part 2 of 3 for Jean Doyle. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Dance Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c2897a75cd31ab8ecd308ef3867df5b3.mp4 3f3657dfeed9afa38fb826176a7a39ea https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5549389bc97b38e47ba975a062a606cc.pdf 0df4f78460413454d2ca380352a6f4f5 PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Jean Doyle Date: 1984 Part: 1 of 3 [Barbara] Okay, Jean. Why on earth did you come to William James? [Jean] Is this the real thing? Are we starting? [Barbara] Yeah. [Jean] Okay. [Sighs heavily] I grew up in Chicago and when I was about twelve, I met a deaf kid. Through meeting him and wanting to communicate with him, I thought I invented the theory of art therapy. [Laughs] And I thought how wonderful it would be if by painting, or reading, or writing poetry, or something that this kid could express or relate to other people what he was experiencing from nature. And so that just became a goal and I call it art therapy in my head, even as a kid. And I just started looking for places that offered coursework in art therapy. A counselor at a high school in Chicago, she wasn't my counselor, it wasn't my high school, she told me about William James. So, my mom and I took a drive up here and we looked at it. I didn't really know what I was looking at or looking for. And I said: "Well, this must be it, you know, this must be where I meant to be." So, in September I started. And, it was, well-- Are we going to get to frustrations right away? [Barbara] Whatever makes you feel most comfortable. [Jean] Okay. It was so strange because once… as soon as I got there, I immediately realized I'd been given misinformation, which I translated to as I was lied to. Because in the in the catalog, you know, it talked about Thomas Jefferson, College IV, William James, and CAS. And when I got there, Thomas Jefferson had just been axed. And there was just no words about it. But I didn’t know enough to get angry yet. That came in time. But I met a lot of people who had been part of Thomas Jefferson and became more acquainted with their frustration and their anger. But we progressed, and then at the end of the first year that I was there Cathleen O'Shaughnessy (?) left. She was a key art therapy person at that time. And she was gone, and that was it. And so, I'll never really understand why I just didn't say: "Well the hell with this. I'm out of here. You know, I came in for something; it's not here. What am I doing here?" But I never left. I just, I don't know, there was something about the community of the place, the friends I was making, and the rapport with professors. That I really felt it was worth sticking around, it was worth waiting, and knowing in my heart someday I �would be an art therapist and I would work in art therapy. But for the present time, I had other things to learn, I had an education to get, and I felt like I was in a good place to get it. Working with good people and that became a priority to me and of great value. [Jean] My father, at the home front, he was questioning greatly what the hell I was doing there when it came out that there wasn't what I was seeking there, and there wasn't, you know, any hope of things getting better in terms of a career-oriented thing. He respected that aspect of liberal education. But he felt that if I just wanted a liberal education that I should continue St. John's, which is where I started my undergrad work. He felt that it would be more sensible to go to a prestigious college, and to have a nice degree at the end of it; especially, if I was going to get something as general as liberal arts. And, as you know, easy to pass off. Or, you know what I mean, people don't really just say: "Oh what are you going to do with that degree?" You know? So, there was a lot of tension there, but I just stuck it out. A sense of loyalty, a sense of connection, and commitment that was felt around me, and so I just want to desert that whole front. [Barbara] Do you know, something that hasn't really come up in the tapes so far is the notion of how new organization happened so many times effected students, and you're talking about it. Do you know people that left school because of reorganization? [Jean] I know one artist in particular that comes to mind. His name was Chris Molane. (?) He's living in New York, and he's doing his work. And he's very happy. I mean, for him actually, the reorganization is a good thing, it released him from the cornfields out to them where things are really happening for him. I'm trying to think who else. Not really, it seemed like people just sort of went, you know, they didn't just accept it but they went through it, and came out the other side to see what was there. [Inaudible] [Jean] Like going through some kind of mill. [Barbara] Please tell me a little bit about Saint Johns. [Jean] Saint Johns was the most beautiful place I ever was at. It was tucked in the mountains in Santa Fe, New Mexico. And it was a drug infested, sexually active, monastery dedicated to learning and loving knowledge. And Socrates was the hero of the school. At four o'clock in the morning, the dorms were really small, about twenty people per dorm. And you could walk in four in the morning and there would be people drunk, or whatever, but they'd be discussing something of common interest. And what's so neat is that it's a very rigid curriculum in terms of all freshmen read Aeschylus, Euripides, Thucydides, and on and on. And they do Euclidean geometry, and then non-Euclidean geometry, and the next year is �Ptolemian, it goes on and so everybody just had the exact same education. So, there's so much to share. And the tutors were more like referees. Or when they would start a seminar, it was like they'd throw up a jump ball and we'd play. [Jean] So, they weren't projecting, or interjecting very much. And in a way, it wasn't until I met Irving Wasserman at Grand Valley that I really was more studied with Socrates and really tried to understand-- just have a broader view, a much broader view, because it was like children playing with these thoughts. And so, we had no background, no framework, to put it in and so, I appreciated having a guide like Irv. But it was wonderful to be given the respect to play with it, you know. Or to engage with it. [Barbara] Okay, but then just the notion of you wanting to go into Art Therapy was enough to tear you away from this? [Jean] I was also in the midst of very strong personal problem that I had to get away from immediately. And so, I had to leave hastily unfortunately. So, when I got home and it was hiding out for a while, I thought: "Well, I think I'll go up to Michigan and check out William James. [Barbara] Okay. Okay. [Jean] Take that path and then maybe go hit… [Barbara] Why alternative anyway though? You had two alternative colleges you were looking for, and why? [Jean] Oh, that's just always been my cup of tea. I originally began my education in straight Catholic schools. And they were fine for me, to an extent. It was sort of like getting a lot of A's and everything for not doing any work. And when I hit about seventh grade, I was with this real tough group. And, you know, standing in the parking lot smoking cigarettes with jackets open in January type of fun and entertainment, really ridiculous. And my mother began to become very concerned about me when I stole her car and went driving around. And so, she knew, in her wisdom, that she couldn't reach me, and she can talk to me. So, she sent me to my sister Barbara, who's twelve years older than me, and who I've always had a very strong affinity with. I stayed there for a month. When I came home my mother said: "Well, Jeanie guess what? There's this wonderful school. It's called Morgan Park Academy. The classes have only like sixteen people in them. And you get to work at your own rate, and it's in the city, and it's real integrated." And I'm like: "Wow, Mom. That sounds real cool. Someday maybe, you know, I'll check it out. She's like: "Well you have your entrance exam Wednesday." And I was like: "Oh..." So anyway, I got into this school and it turned out there was like these real rich, snotty kids there. And I was just like: �"Oh jeez, I don't need this." One day… the first day of school someone asked me what did my father do for a living, and how much money did he make. And I told her that my father was an alcoholic, and we were on welfare. [Jean] Which was absolutely the untruth. But I just like a little bitch. I'm not going to tell her the truth. It's none of her business. But anyway, I got into the faculty there, and I realized what I could learn there. And I realized that I didn't need, oh, just to be told what to do, that learning itself was an incentive enough for me. And that I just couldn't stand, you know, all this worrying about tests, and what did you get on the test and… you know, what do you have to know for the test. That whole attitude… whenever I came across that it just, you know, put my back up. and I was like get me out of here. At that school, I was allowed to get away from that. And at St. John's, there certainly wasn't at all an issue, I didn't even know they gave grades until later. I found out that I did rather well. But, you know, I just didn't need traditional structured education. [Barbara] Do think that's because you got too much of it? Or for other reasons.? [Jean] No, I think it's just the way I'm made. Just me. [Laughter] [Barbara] I went to a school founded by John Dewey, who was a student of James's. And when it hits you, when you hit one school like that it spoils you for anything else. [Jean] Yeah, and it's not spoiled. Well, I mean it's… you don't want to go back. [Barbara] Yeah. [Jean] You don't need it. [Barbara] You become very cynical about traditional education is another way to put it. [Jean] Yes, it's true. [Barbara] Okay, you talk about major frustration. Are there other frustrations you would like to talk about? [Jean] Yeah, I think one is a real general frustration. It's sort of like, I feel in the course of my life I've come at the end of every great wave that I have wanted to be a part of desperately. And it's like I'm, you know, trying to body surf. And it goes right over me, and I'm back there, and then it crashes on the beach, and it's pulled back in, and then I'm just waiting for the next wave or something. When I was six my sister, Barbara again, you know, she was in college. It was nineteen sixty-seven. She was sitting in the rain for her black roommates and, you know, it was all very powerful to me. It really stuck with me. And I thought that's what we �do in college. When I got there, I was all psyched for it, and then I grew up in things where the seventies… [Jean] Where nobody wanted to commit to anything, and everything was the blank generation. and it was a denial of everything that happened in sixties, it seem to me. And so, at that time I think I sort of espoused hippie virtues, you know, or tried to. I made myself and was forced into the position of being a dinosaur. Of being, you know, like this extinct being. Yet walking along the living, but not wanting to be part of what they were doing. And not wanting to fit in, and not wanting to espouse those principles. Because I didn't see any principles in them. So, it was pretty rough. But by the time I got to college, I realized the sixties are gone. Life has changed a lot. There's no hippies anymore, the hippies who are here are clinging to the past. This is a new time, and we need a new kind of people to deal with, you know, the sixties plus the seventies, and now the eighties. You know it's a new world. And one of my frustrations at William James was being considered a hippie even though I wasn't. You know, and you get a lot of flak. But that didn't really bother me, I can sort of laugh that off. [Barbara] What kind of flak? Or you really don't know? [Jean] A lot of times… when you're talking to CAS people. And I hate doing the camp business, you know, I mean our side and their side of the river or whatever. But people want to take it seriously. I mean from the point of a guy not asking you out on a date because you are William James student, to in a conversation…you're just not being taken seriously because you're considered a radical. Even though I'm very… I consider myself conservative liberal. You know, I'm not into radical changes. I'm into reasonable discussion of what's going on and then see what can be done. But not just changing for change's sake. I'm not radical politically, and I'm not a hippie, and I'm not living in the past. And a lot of times… it's hard for me to be specific right now, my mind is not really on it… clearly enough to come up with specific examples of times I felt put down, or rejected for having… [Barbara] The out of tape line is blinking at me, so it's going to stop in a second. So, it’s a good time to just wait anyway. [Jean] Okay. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_06_Doyle Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doyle, Jean Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Jean Doyle interview (1 of 3, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Jean Doyle by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Jean Doyle was a student at William James College and a graduate from Grand Valley's class of 1984. In this interview, Jean discusses the journey that brought her to William James College from her hometown of Chicago, Illinois and how she felt a calling toward alternative education to study Art Therapy. This interview is part 1 of 3 for Jean Doyle. Please note: this interview contains the audio recording in place of the video recording. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Art therapy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0fded001eb7cab0ad7f0269aed889c07.mp4 d770c08f6adec0895500448beed93642 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7c1875e79c164549f23b7d7aad10bcab.pdf 4425c61f1f3b25373e1c7ec8155b2cfb PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Rosalyn Muskovitz Date: 1984 Part: 2 of 2 [Rosalyn] --about. [Barbara] We were just talking about the evolution of this place. [Rosalyn] Okay. Okay. The evol-- The directions this college was somewhat a result of chance. Chance in that the specific interest of the individual faculty members that happen to come here. I think in initial planning they knew there were going to be some forms of social studies, and some sort of management, or business component, and there would be some art component. But what nobody knew was what direction it would take. They didn't know whether they'd get a faculty member who was a potter, or a painter, or a filmmaker. Actually, what they did is that they initially got me. My background was in graphic design and in interiors. I'm sure that the initial planners of the college never envisioned a program an interior design or graphic design. And yet what happened in the evolution the college is the graphic component, as part of the arts and media component, became the longest-lived program that was here. It had the greatest number of students. And in the reorganization, what has happened is, that number has carried through into the reorganization so that the design students, who are now part of the art department, are the largest component in that department. And there was no way of knowing that in nineteen seventy-two when we were starting out because there was no way to predict what area… which direction we would go. So, there is an element of chance, I think, not so much in… not a general element of chance, but in the specific interest and the specific background of the individual faculty that came here initially. [Barbara] So, what does that say about the planning? Does it say that it was just sloppy planning? Is this a negative or positive? Are you criticizing, or are you saying it’s a good thing? [Rosalyn] I think it's a positive thing. I think that, you know, when you look at Russia with their five-year plans everything is planned down to the… almost to the individual person. And it's always found wanting. That sometimes there is such a thing as natural growth, and that you can plan in general, but you may not necessarily do as well – if planning specifically – as if you would allow them to be sort of natural growth. So that, you know, things could take the direction in which they are supposed to take. They are sort of an evolutionary element that I think was good. I think that this is a positive thing. �[Barbara] So, what did they advertise for when they got you? [Rosalyn] I'm not really sure now that I think about it. They were looking for someone in… Someone, you know, I don't really remember. [Barbara] Okay. [Rosalyn] I don't really remember. [Barbara] So… [Rosalyn] I do remember. [Barbara] Alright. [Rosalyn] One of my friend’s husband was teaching here, and he knew about the college. He wasn't teaching for the college, but he knew about the college. And he knew that they were considering looking at the possibility of having somebody in arts and media, and maybe somebody from industry. But they really weren't sure what they wanted. So, in fact, what happened is I applied for the job before was ever advertised for, that's what happened. And so, in a sense, by applying for the job, and telling them, telling the people the kinds of things that I was interested in, what I wanted to do, what was remarkable is that I came to them and that they were able to recognize this as a good thing. Even though the people who interviewed me, not a single one of them was in anyway related to art, at all, and yet they were able to recognize the kinds of things that I was talking about and the kinds of things that I wanted to do. And they were able to recognize the validity of it. It turned out to be the first step in very successful program that we had here. [Barbara] But, Ros. I came much later. So, you were hired as the first arts and media person. [Roslyn] Right. [Barbara] So how did the arts and media program grow? [Rosalyn] Okay. [Barbara] I don't understand how it evolved. I don't know. [Rosalyn] So, what happened was… I was the design person. Then we had a person here initially, who came the same time I did, whose background was in American �Studies, and yet who was interested in video. Video as a means of documenting American scenes in American Studies. That was Bob Conrow. We sort of came at the same time, and we sort of help each other. [Rosalyn] I think from that we added photography, we added another design person (because we had to have more courses in that), we hooked up with channel thirty-five and graphics for television, because we did that internally as a curriculum. That lead will to animation. I taught the first animation class on this campus. Even though my background is not in animation; but I'm interested… it's one of the things I'm interested in. And that led to an expanded video and film program. That's how that happened. That was the nucleus of it. [Barbara] Fine, thank you. [Rosalyn] Does that help? � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_05_Muskovitz Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Muskovitz, Rosalyn Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Rosalyn Muskovitz interview (2 of 2, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Rosalyn Muskovitz by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Rosalyn Muskovitz was a faculty member of William James College and in this interview she discusses the evolution of WJC, being hired as the first faculty for Arts and Media, and the growth of that program over time. This interview is part 2 of 2 for Rosalyn Muskovitz. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Art Study and teaching Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/677c9e1817dcace32f038f939685f98f.mp4 e74500420d99c3e1c92a46c7b1bd5f53 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d11816b0abb639e0c794f61355f3ee4b.pdf feeb4b08152ac2bf5ddb9759a0ddeaac PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Rosalyn Muskovitz Date: 1984 Part: 1 of 2 [Barbara] Why don't you talk about why you came here? [Rosalyn] Okay, I'll start. Let me think. Wait a minute, let me start. I think I should start by saying that I was one of the people who did not come from academia and I didn't I come from a teaching background. My teaching experience was limited. I'd been at Kendall Teaching and Design School. Though I was committed to teaching, I found that it was sorely lacking as an educational experience. Both for me and for the students. And so, I was looking for something else. When I found out about a new college, that had just started the year before, that was interdisciplinary in nature--and I consider myself an interdisciplinary person because I'm interested in a wide variety of things. And the college was interested in having a design component in its curriculum, and I thought that since I had such a wide variety of background interests, of things I was interested in, I would give it a shot. Because it was sort of a new college, and it had sort of altruistic ideas, I guess. And high expectations for educational excellence. I was sort of caught up in the whole idea of being able to build something from its very beginnings, that I applied and came the second year--in the second year the school existed. [Barbara] Stop for a moment. I want to suggest… if I may direct you? That you now talk a little bit… and we have changed the shot. Now you talk a little bit about how that changed. Remember? 'Because when you're doing it spontaneously to me you said, "But that changed." [Rosalyn] That's right. [Barbara] [Inaudible] [Rosalyn] That's right. [Barbara] Okay. And then we'll start again, and the next point can be the part about the students being involved. Give me a second. See what I'm doing? I'm dividing it up more in a more linear way. [Rosalyn] Okay. Clearly, that's why you're the editor. Okay... [Barbara] Well, it will just be easier. �[Rosalyn] Okay. [Barbara] You're going to have to answer that again. [Rosalyn] I can't remember what I said. [Barbara] You look perfect. [Rosalyn] Huh? [Barbara] I'll do it again. I ask it again. [Barbara] Can you hang on a second? [Rosalyn] Yeah. Is this coming out alright? I don’t know. [Barbara] Yeah, it is. It's reversed from… the polarity is reversed. So, it tapes backwards. [Rosalyn] Oh, wonderful. [Barbara] You’ve got to keep pointing to the window as much as you can because looks it very attractive. [Rosalyn] Okay. [Barbara] The question I asked you was if you had to say what one… in hindsight, what one problem of the school was. [Rosalyn] Okay, with hindsight there were lots of problems. But I think one of the fundamental problems that we had was that we had an absolute commitment to equality; as far as decision making and the educational process between the faculty and the students. That we tried very hard to give the students to equal voice and equal weight in the decision making. What happened was that the students – just because they were students and were much younger in general – they didn't have the background or the information to make those decisions. And so, in a sense, they had much more power in the decision-making process than they should have had by virtue of the fact that they had far less experience and did not necessarily know the where right decisions were as far as around education was concerned. So, I think we made a mistake, in that we gave that much… too much weight at the time. I think it was important that they have some weight, but not as much as we tried to give them at the time. And also, the early students, I think, had a major commitment to alternative education. And the early students challenged the faculty, and push the faculty to do greater projects, larger amounts of work. I mean we were doing graduate level type theses on �some of these projects at that time. That changed over a period of time. [Rosalyn] Because as the idea of alternative education changed somewhat, and the students, I think, changed somewhat in that… what happened was, that there was less push to do these major projects, and I think some of that was because students who came afterwards decided this might be an easier way to get an education. That it might be-- You could do things by sort of sliding through. There wasn't as much push to do really in-depth kinds of things. And I think the faculty somewhat got caught up in that. I think we lost track of what we were doing, as far as-- let's see. As far as some of the, you know, some of the courses we taught and some the work that was going on here. [Barbara] Why don't you stop for a minute and think? Brief answer, tell me about strengths. [Rosalyn] Okay. The major strength of James in the beginning was the absolute dedication the faculty. The faculty was dedicated to excellence in education. To building something here that would sort of stand for education at its highest level. And as a result, because we had that commitment, we worked enormous long hours to fulfill our goals. I think our goals were somewhat unrealistic in the beginning because nobody could do everything, and since we were committed to interdisciplinary education, everybody really had an interest in what everybody else was doing. And even though they were very damn different fields--and so we spend a lot of time talking about other things and learning about other things different than our own field. And as a result, I think what happened was that there just wasn't enough time, and nobody had enough energy to do everything. What we didn't do is we didn't delegate responsibility, because everybody was interested in being involved in everything. And we miscalculated, I think, as a group. We just attempted to do too much. A result of this was, I think, that was in three or four years we had massive burnout. People were just exhausted; and were not really able to meet their somewhat, you know, unrealistic goals that they set for themselves in the beginning. [Barbara] Tell me Ros, do you find it… don't talk till I get in here. Do you find it harder to teach now that we've switched the systems? Is it harder to teach? Wait till I focus here. Make sure it's clear. Okay. Does it make a difference? [Rosalyn] It's very different, but I can't really say if it's easier or harder. I feel that a lot of the joy of teaching that existed by being able to interact with people in different fields and on an ongoing basis is gone. Some of the really satisfying, you know, the things that satisfy your soul are not there anymore. Is it easier to teach? Well to begin with I, for one, have far fewer preparations. Because in a tiny school where we taught such a wide variety of things there were times we had nine preparations a year. They didn't teach any of those courses the second year. �[Rosalyn] So now, with the new organization, I tend to teach a course and teach again the following year. I am able to spend more time developing my current curriculum in my individual coursework because I get to repeated so often. However, the tradeoff is that it isn't the same. It's become much more static. I'm able to teach things like techniques more because, you know, the nitty-gritty of it but I'm not able to teach the philosophy and theory kinds of things that I did before because I can't bring in those… the other kinds of things and other people from other areas. It's much more rigid. So, in a sense what's happening is my students are becoming much more proficient as technicians, and they're not as good as far as thinking, problem-solving, human beings. I think the first students we turned out had a unique quality that came in. Now that I look back and I think that the technical things that they had to learn, they're learning right now working in the field. And that the things that we gave them are things they can never get out in industry. What we're giving them now, interestingly enough, are the kinds of things that they could learn in industry; but unfortunately, they're not getting the really joyous things that they came in. A lot of those have to do with values, and just thinking, and problem-solving. And being caring kinds of human beings. I think those early students had a wonderful experience. Now, it may very well be that we are a small microcosm of the times. And that, in fact, in the beginning of the nineteen seventies -- I came in seventy-two -- there was a lot of feeling of people towards each other, and that we were reaching out towards each other more as a society than we are now. Right now, everybody's concerned about the bottom line; about a job, about how many dollars are going to make for their first job. I have students want me to tell them, at the beginning design course, how much they're going to earn when they graduate. How do I know? I don't even know if the job they're training for is going to be there when they graduate. But they don't understand that. Yet, in nineteen seventy-two when I talk to students about them and told them that they had to understand about design, and they had to be flexible, and be able to go with the change and they understood that. And they were willing to except that. Different student today. So, I don't know if it's because of William James. I really don't so. William James may, in fact, have been a reflection of what was happening in in the greater community; and it's gone because those values have changed in the greater society. [Barbara] Great answer. That was really good. You're all informed warmed up now. [Laughs] Um, I need to ask you if you were going to summarize what James' form of alternative education was? As briefly as possible, try to summarize in two sentences the key to what James was. What was it? [Rosalyn] I don't know if you'd call us the key to what it was, but what we tried to do was we tried to have students, not to teach students to solve problems, but to teach students to recognize the problem. [Rosalyn] And then, the solution would come after it. It was not a question of working out �the solution, it was a question of defining the problem (whatever the problem was) and I think that was part of the--That-that was the essence of it. [Barbara] Would you care-- [Rosalyn] Does that make sense? [Barbara] Yeah, it does, it means you don't get hung up on specific solutions. You get to the general problem. [Rosalyn] Yeah. Yeah. Which is really what I think that what we were doing. Part of that was that we didn't have time to do anymore. [Barbara] Would you care to venture your guess of why we don't exist anymore? [Rosalyn] I think we don't exist anymore because I think the times are different. I think we live in a very conservative time. I think we are we live in a time where we're more concerned with ourselves. We're far more isolationist than we were fourteen/fifteen years ago. I think we don't exist because I think that society does not want us to exist at this point. [Barbara] Why? Why doesn't society still want students that are trained to spot problems? Isn't that important to the society? Why would the society want to change its educational system to turn out technicians? Just technicians? [Rosalyn] Well because I think we are entering a very repressive era. I think that where we have people who are… well, I just I think that we are in a more repressive area or era at this time. That we are not willing to tolerate each other's foibles, whatever they are. I think we're far more narrow… it might be an economic thing, that there is less resources. Even though we live in wealthy environment; there are many, many more people who don't really have access to that wealth. I'm not really sure. The problem is that when you are so close to it, it's so hard to tell what it is. And maybe ten years from now we could look back and say that, you know, it didn't work at that time because of this reason, or that reason. It's so difficult to know when you're sort of right there at that moment to be able to analyze it. At least it's difficult for me. [Barbara] If you had to do anything differently about the way things ran here, aside of the one thing you mentioned, which is not give quite so much power to students, what would that be? [Rosalyn] The other thing would have been to delegate responsibility to each other, and to accept each other's decision making. Because I think that would've helped us to prevent this absolute fatigue that overwhelmed us. I think I would've change that. �[Barbara] I am out of questions. Anything else you want to say? [Rosalyn] I don't know. [Barbara] You're very good at this. This was fun. [Rosalyn] What else would I say? [Barbara] Do you think alternative education is going to come around again? [Rosalyn] If, you know, history teaches us anything; it teaches us that there's never anything new. And that, in fact, you know, everything is a circle. And that I believe that, once we get through this sort of conservative situation that we are in, that we will come full circle again. And that, in fact, I don't know if it will be alternative education as we knew it fifteen years ago. But it might be alternative education in some other mode. And I would fully expect that we would make, you know, we--it would come around again, because we tend to go in waves. Assuming that we're all here, you know. We all survive long enough for it to happen. I think it will. [Barbara] There isn't much tape left, but let me ask you this: when you came to James, you chose alternative, what is there in your background that made you interested in this kind of environment? In other words, why did you feel comfortable with alternative? [Rosalyn] Because I don't have a traditional academic background, in a particular academic field. I've done a whole variety of things, and I have… my life has changed over the years. I think that one of the main reasons was that I was that I was older. I think if I had been twenty-two/twenty-three years old, just out of school, I would not have been as well suited to this particular thing as I was when I came. When I was in my late-thirties, almost forty years-old. Because I'd had a variety of experiences in my life. [Barbara] Like what? [Rosalyn] I had been a professional designer. I had taught. [Rosalyn] I had been, you know, I had made the choices between being a working mother, or a mother that stayed at home. I'd raised a family. I did a lot of traveling. I had a wide interest in many things. I was interested in things besides art and design. I was interested in sociology. I had a deep interest in history. I was interested in cooking and the whole variety of kinds of things. And I think that this allows me to do it. �[Barbara] I'm out of questions and tape now. [Rosalyn] What do you think? [Barbara] I think it's wonderful. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_04_Muskovitz Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Muskovitz, Rosalyn Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Rosalyn Muskovitz interview (1 of 2, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Rosalyn Muskovitz by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Rosalyn Muskovitz was a faculty member of William James College and in this interview she discusses her background prior to coming to GVSC, the interdisciplinary appeal of this new college, and the strengths and weaknesses of WJC. This interview is part 1 of 2 for Rosalyn Muskovitz. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9dae755e410eabcbc6533780bb7aff47.mp4 4ab07ec8b198786c64a10fc7d205e2f5 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/98ff862349a06b58ac4c63ce43111cc2.pdf 8fe002f42e6050affaffb1a625dff5fd PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Rosemary Willey Date: 1984 Part: 3 of 3 [Rosemary] We're rolling. [Barbara] Is there anything we could have done differently there at the end to save ourselves? [Rosemary] Well, God – that’s a very difficult question because, quite honestly, I don't think so. But I tend to be kind of a pessimistic person. I'm not sure what we could have done because it got to the point, we were working in an environment that was… you know, we were going against the mainstream; we were running an opposite course. And, I think with the way Grand Valley was moving, as a whole, there was really very little we could do. I didn't realize that at first, I think many students…you know, we were taught that these values, and this approach to education was vital. It was really going to do things for us. I mean nobody went to William James to be told that this is going to fall apart. You know, I mean they went to William James because there was a real supportive set of ideas that made some sense to you, and that was going to be very advantageous to me. You felt good about what was happening. So, I think that students when they… when there was some organizing to save the college, it was really heartfelt. We really thought we could have an effect on a few things. I mean it came down to simply wanting to save the name. You know, for one of the departments or something. But so, when it became clear to me that it was a losing battle, I'm not sure if everyone felt that way, but there was a point, I think. I saw it happen to many people. There was a point where you felt it was a losing battle, and you didn't go to council. I mean why get up at nine o'clock on Friday morning, get in there to sit around at a council, you know, that's kind of digging our grave. That was sort of the activity of the day. It was always quite depressing. The students started to kind of, you know, we went from everybody showing up because we were going to do something about this. To people just needing to, you know, get back to work on their classes. I mean, some students were letting classes slide because they felt so strongly about this movement, this organizing. So, then we all kind of stepped back, and just had to look out for ourselves. And take care of ourselves, and I for one didn't want to be devastated. So, I just got back to my own ideas. This is why I… part of how I ended up in New York, was that I kind of wanted to be sure that I was paving my way out to put myself in a new environment where there were opportunities and things kind of bursting, things going on that I can feel new and involved in as opposed to sliding off of this closing of William James. So, I stepped out into New York, which was very �refreshing, but I had my tools – so to speak – with me from this education and all these experiences and I think I could take on the city and many different kinds of people because William James was very rich. [Barbara] I’m reading a book right now on American education. Did you ever feel at James that you were involved in anything radical? Does that seem a useful word? [Rosemary] William James, as an entity, which it became sometimes… I mean, there were many times when I felt like I was going to college and I was excited to get to my classes and I was involved in this community and I worked in the students’ files office and it kind of became my world. And when I was really just being a part of this community, it didn't feel radical, it didn't feel… I didn't stop and think that it was special and different – not very often – but I do when I look at it in the terms of education and our society today. I do see that it was a radical place only because it was different. It moved away from the simple formulas and structures that I think the educational process can be boiled down to these tight little systems and because William James was so different and operating on such different principles, it was a radical organization – radical idea – and it certainly allowed for you to meet many different political types now because “radical” is kind of a political word to me. I think of, you know, being able to study social issues from a socialist point of view or this kind of thing was extraordinary and different. Now, I made a mention of being excited to go to class and this is something that, you know, I remember time and again and there were a lot of little networks that were built up in the classes. You would meet for coffee to talk about your class, these kinds of things. The excitement in the activity of learning was really something that I felt there. And once you could grasp the process, you know, read something, and think out something and have these conversations in the classroom – it was very confidence building thing. Especially as a freshman coming from high school where, you know, high school can be a kind of dehumanizing identity crisis and certainly was for me. To step into something that involved you and meant something to you, where you weren't afraid of what you thought and to say what you thought. It built character, it built real character, and there were a lot of characters there. Yeah. [Barbara] Do you remember any in particular? [Rosemary] Oh, I remember all of them. I remember all of them in particular because I haven't met people like that since. So, they do, they really stand out to me. People that really had an effect on me. People that I miss and people that I still write to and I'm very fond of. [Unknown] Students as well as…? [Rosemary] Students as well as professors. I have had connections to professors that were, �you know, beyond a student professor relationship, where they saw I wrote some poetry and I had Roz [Rosalind] Mayberry paying attention to me as a person who was connecting things and discovering the magic of my own words and she would relate to me in being just as excited and involved in my process of learning and this is something that I still can't, you know… I still write a poem and want to know what Roz thinks and we are in touch and it certainly isn’t something that has stopped because our class ended. That's enough, that's good enough, yeah. [Barbara] Okay, this is a place that was, you know, this was change, this was a changeoriented place. That’s what we’re going to have to deal with and we didn’t deal with it, Rose. They don’t quite say that. [Rosemary] Change. Oh, you mean like I said something about how, you know, we were being taught to live in a changing world, this kind of thing, and I talked about that being valuable to me. But I don't know what you mean. [Barbara] Real change confronted the college, but we didn’t feel it. [Rosemary] Alright, okay. Yeah, that's right. I did have a way that I wanted to put that. You know, I sort of feel like it's up to you, too. What I did was I was thinking along the lines of all these things that were so essential to us: integration, holistic approaches to learning, well-rounded, not only career-oriented. These things that really had substance became like buzzwords and when we were crumbling, we were still trying to (crumbling… I’ve got to quit saying that) but we were still trying to hang onto these essential things. But I think quite hypocritically because we were allowing so much to be put upon ourselves, so many compromises. [Barbara] Like what? [Rosemary] Just the whole system of getting students out and graduated became systematized in a way that wasn't paying attention to students’ particular needs and problems. So that when we would come up with a graduate, and all of a sudden people realized this person couldn't write very well, the student got stopped and nailed and I think it was simply a matter of our being so caught up in covering our asses and that there was a lot of things at the beginning – students, their needs, where they're at, how to build and work with them – that started to get systematized and the very typical thing of, you know, Johnny can't read or write, that could happen to us and it did, it did happen. [Barbara] I know it's hard to believe we still have a couple of people who are all William James people who have graduated yet because they can't write. [Rosemary] It's hard to believe but… and it's hard to sit back and say that it’s William James’s fault. I think, you know, here again it's difficult to place blame because if we had �all the support we needed so that we didn't have to worry about how we appear – the society or whatever – we could have continued to pay attention to those things that were vital to the individuals. But it became quite clear that there were three or four or five individuals that were really in there bantering, playing a hard game, to keep what was essential to the college but that was really all I think that, you know, the small things we started to compromise on. I mean, it's very small but, you know, you start to number your courses. You start… [Barbara] What difference does it make if you number your courses? [Rosemary] Immediately students would get the impression that, gee, I better take this course before this course and then I have to have this course before this course. Now, at times there was a simple logic to that… to being able to sit in a class and know what's going on, to have a little bit of history with the subject. But I think in general, it meant that students stepped into a kind of semi-structure and saw that and tried to move through it as though it really were a structure. It was very confusing. I mean, I sat down with beginning students in those last years who were concerned that they couldn't take this course because it didn’t fit their study plan, you know, the study plan became this rock that you carved your classes into and I think that there were a lot of students that started to feel like there was this whole… there was a set of expectations that they've simply had to do to graduate now. I think we handled those expectations entirely differently at first because it fit a certain philosophy to go out, to try things, to be well-rounded, to be sure you’ve... I mean, sometimes it boiled down to, you know, be sure you’ve had a class with Dick Paschke especially because he will really change your way of thinking. And I think these things were happening in a way that was much more individualized and progressive than, you know, school by numbers and I think we're to blame for that a little bit because we started to lose confidence in ourselves. We started to misunderstand, perhaps, what these essential ideas meant and how to work with them, how to use them as you know so it amounted to a kind of model. I mean, William James was really a tremendous model for a lot of people, and it was a surprise to a lot of people, but I think I was there long enough to not be too surprised. Yeah, I had a couple friends that took this college so seriously and so to heart, I mean, they were more than us, but we were angered. Frequently, we were angered by the students that kind of weren’t getting it. They weren’t getting it; they were taking advantage, they were only here to do their photography and to go get a job, you know. We were really troubled by that, but it certainly wasn't the student’s fault. [Barbara] Why wasn’t it their fault? [Rosemary] Because these were the shifts that were beginning to make sense to those young people. These were the kinds of shifts that were setting in this sort of new logic that I think put too much emphasis on career and much less emphasis on �discovery of all possibilities that you can have in those few years. And, you know, I am very well aware of the numbers game that started to set in in terms of how many students are in what programs and if it was really mounting up in that media program, for example, then we better pay a lot of attention to that. I mean, the bottom line is getting students in there and getting enough money so that the college would survive. And we had to have some kind of external measure of value and it pretty much amounted to how successful I think we were in terms of student ratios and numbers and things that for some of the students that were aware would really seem hypocritical and we would get very angry and fed up and these were the things that made us feel like it was a losing battle, and we ought to take care of our coursework and get out. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_03_Willey Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Willey, Rosemary Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Rosemary Willey interview (3 of 3, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Rosemary Willey by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Rosemary Willey was a student of William James College from 1977 to 1982. In this interview, Rosemary discusses the closing of William James College, her memory of the cast of characters in their community, and the shift toward a more career-oriented education for the youth at that time. This interview is part 3 of 3 for Rosemary Willey. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ddacd65d640d0e5e4659ef22872a448f.mp4 937d8c0f1f6807e1254873b38b633a7e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bf347b2333b2213a9bc8561d69c9a8a0.pdf 8a5d68be44357294e25e5c47c2ff92de PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Rosemary Willey Date: 1984 Part: 2 of 3 [Barbara] Just keep talking. [Rosemary] I started to feel like people asking me how much money I can make as a research assistant to an independent filmmaker. I started to feel like-- "Hey! That's a real personal question." And I started to kind of take offense, and maybe it's partially because, you know, I'm not making any money. But it was also because, you know, I don't care how much money you make. But there was really a, you know, it's just a sort of wrapped package. You graduate, get a degree to be something, and you're going to make so much money depending on what you've picked. This all adds up to, you know, what you've amounted to. Now, people have asked me how much money I make, I kind of banter about it. But… [Barbara] What’s the matter? Oh shit, you were perfect, Rose! You were so good! [Rosemary] [In a fake southern twang] Okay, we'll try it again. I'm so glitch. I'm so glad you noticed that we'd run the whole tape. [Laughs] [Rosemary] Let's see, yeah. I started taking offense at people asking me how much money I could possibly make working with the independent filmmaker. I started to feel like that's a really personal question. Happened many, many times. It happened in the hallway, in my building, people, you know, just after a few questions. “Well, what do you do? Where are you from? Well, gee, how much money do you make?” I started to feel, of course, like that's not anybody's business. Maybe, partially, because I'm not making much money. But then as I got to get enough of this attitude among young, newly graduated, out in the world types. That it was important to let people know I'm not out in the world to turn a buck. That I'm, you know, that I'm out for experiences, that I feel like I have something to say. I mean there…I've met many people who have, I'm going to have to stumble with this for some reason. I'm drawing a blank. [Barbara] Okay. That's because you already said it. So, it's hard for you to do it again. So, the point is that their education has been [inaudible] at the very limit, and your education was something different. �[Rosemary] Yeah. Well, I went out east. Moving out east where there's a lot of young professionals in New York, who have acquired a certain status that has to do with where they have been to school, and what they studied. And you run into these people frequently at parties or whatever. Gatherings where young people want to know where you went to school, and what you studied. Their education is that -most commonly I find that these people have gone to college to be somebody, to be something, to be a particular thing. And, if that hasn't added up in terms of their salary, or whatever, I think that people feel pretty bad about where they're at now. [Rosemary] So, at first it was kind of difficult for me when I confronted this attitude about what you do is what you, who you are, and what you've amounted to, and I had no simple answer for what I do and what I wanted to continue to do, and where I'd been. And having William James College close has made it difficult, in that I can't go on about this college that is this real happening place where people go to really learn something and where there was an attitude, there was a real concern, that even though they were concerned that people got out and could find work and have careers and skills and stuff, but a real well-rounded education that involved a lot of other things, thinking and writing, you know, that it wasn't strictly career-oriented, that it was really kind of learning-oriented. And so, it has really put me in a space that has, that I have found is quite unusual, where, you know, being professional and being involved in something and having a career means something entirely different. Well, it certainly doesn't mean how much money you make. I think it means kind of loving what you do and being good at what you do. You take pride in different things. [Rosemary] And so I stumbled with these young people and cocktail parties or whatever that wanted to peg me, wanted to take me from some Ivy League school and that I that I've been to law school or whatever. And then it didn't take very long before I decided, what I have done, and what I am doing, and what I will do, and my reasons for it, can really blow people away. Because it is unusual. And it's I think it's a lot more dynamic approach to being a graduate and most people I've come across, I mean, it's made me feel like an odd duck out in New York. But I've come to take certain amount of pride in that. And I take a tremendous amount of pride that I went to William James College and have felt a little bitter sometimes that it wasn't sitting out there in West Michigan and still turning out people who had an approach to their careers that was more like my own. Now I sort of feel like stopping the tape. Okay. [Barbara] Why don’t you just talk about Walter? [Rosemary] Yeah, well, Walter Wright was an example of something I felt was really going on there, was kind of a symbol of something to me as a student. Because I had the unusual experience of being there when it was really a very dynamic, powerful, �functioning place and then in my later years, I graduated just as it was folding, and there was a lot of involvement of students and faculty and we really were unified in a kind of “save our college” movement. And so, I experienced the pitfalls and the hard realizations about where the support was coming from was, you know, from within ourselves or really not within the administration, it was in the world at large. We pretty much were up against it. So, people began to realize this and there were a lot of very sad emotional times going on between student and professors. And, you know, what an education that was, that in and of itself, to be involved in this changing times. Feeling not only that we were changing but we had promoted ourselves as a college that was going to equip its young people to handle change, to be survivors, to get out in the world and make change. So here was a real experience for us and I think it made a tremendous impression on those last graduates. And you know, even though it was a very sorry thing, I think we did end up feeling very well equipped to take on the conservative world and to do the things we wanted to do. [Rosemary] Walter Wright, when I first came to William James was kind of, you know, the happening professor. He was really very exciting for students. He really was a great advocate of individualism and I think many students who didn't feel like they had a niche in the world definitely could find it with Walter. And they were doing amazing things, there was always all kinds of amazing film and video things going on for people. And I think personally they were some of the most interesting students at William James were the students that gave Walter a lot of support and vice versa. And as William James started to undergo this sort of cracking away at the foundation, the changing ideas, Walter was a person who never really changed. He still handled his classes and the way that he felt was, you know, was right on and he still… [Barbara] Like what? [Rosemary] Well, one thing that comes to mind is that he was a great advocate for play. That learning was playful and that whatever you did, it was going to be fun and expressive and yours. And for example, my very first super eight film, because I didn't handle my camera right or something… I still don’t, I'm not sure because it never happened again. But I came up with a three-minute roll of black film. I had a completely black film. So, Walter said we're going to show your film, it’s a black film, and we'll get around to what happened. But he told me I could take this film and cut it into things where I wanted a black spot, that was interesting, that I could scratch it, that I could make, that I could work with film and it wasn't hopeless and I was devastated. And here Walter really wanted me to feel like it's all part of it, you know. And so, it was all right, you know, it was all right. And then I went on to not be intimidated by the camera, to not be afraid to make a black film again. But he was just, you know, a very magical kind of instructor for me, someone that I certainly had a lot of confidence to work with him, and to try new �things. [Barbara] And then what happened? [Rosemary] Right, well what I wanted to… Okay, so, Walter was very important to me, to the whole kind of philosophy and openness that made the college a very involved place and he… I think as the college started to suffer some changes and structuring, some things that were imposed upon us, Walter couldn’t maintain his approach to classes and to students. He never really started to structure his classes in a way that would've been quite different. Sso he kind of went from being you know very much a part of what the college is all about to, I think, a sort of exceptional person. He was kind of a dying breed, someone who became very unusual. And Walter was always Walter, I mean he handled that very well, but I always felt kind of sorry that he began to appear to be, more and more, the exception rather than… [Barbara] Do you know why he left? [Rosemary] … a facet. I'm not exactly sure why. [Barbara] Because he was told he would not get tenure, that’s why he looked for another job. It’s nothing that even he was unpopular, it’s that Walter had to go. [Rosemary] Well, yeah, he was driven. Students were allowed to be on faculty review committees, which were these committees that were, you know, inside the college that sat down and reviewed the progress and the, you know, how a particular professor was doing, and how the students were feeling, and how they were feeling. And I mean it was really a very good thing, but I sat on some of those review committees, and I think that in Walter's case in particular, I really did learn a lot about how he was kind of being forced into this exceptional, unusual role rather than supported. Rather than supported, and rather than looked at as an incredible asset he started to be, I think the attitude started to be “What are we going to do with this guy that won't write a syllabus?” You know, and so I got to see which was also another very unusual thing about William James, I got to see the kind of internal attitudes and the real clashes and the things that made you feel very helpless as to why, you know, why the foundation was crumbling. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_02_Willey Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Willey, Rosemary Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Rosemary Willey interview (2 of 3, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Rosemary Willey by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Rosemary Willey was a student of William James College from 1977 to 1982. In this interview, Rosemary discusses the career-oriented attitudes of young professionals in New York City in comparison with the learning-oriented education she received at William James College, in addition to her experience learning from professor Walter Wright. This interview is part 2 of 3 for Rosemary Willey. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4a6d593c630fe11a494b948230ea3917.mp4 0779bf81f0f2c6f2e93ae65db9ded30d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ad32fb631019cf7c9fa77b24cd44db4d.pdf ab931513183ee456c0c53b40fc89f256 PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Rosemary Willey Date: 1984 Part: 1 of 3 [Barbara] Go on. [Camera operator] Rolling. [Barbara] Just talk. You don't have to worry about it. [Rosemary] He has himself… he has some kind of idea that… there's all this talk about how we had a philosophy, and we had this, and we that going for us. I don't know. He was saying some things about how little of that was really, you know, commonly understood. It was interesting, like he was kind of fed up with everyone talking about, you know, the philosophy of education, and stuff. I just think it was interesting to talk to him. [Barbara] Okay, we'll do some more of that. I would like you to, first of all, start talking about… in a sentence, say who you are, when you went to James, and what you're doing now. [Rosemary] I am Rosemary Willey, and I went to William James from seventy-seven to eighty-two, little time off, and I'm living in New York, and working with filmmaker Leo Hurwitz. And his-- and research for his next script in film. [Barbara] How did you get that job, Rose? [Rosemary] I was studying script writing and very interested in writing for media, and I set up an internship with Leo. Was encouraged to get out and do something in my field, which is what the internship program is all about, and I had met Leo Hurwitz. He was a Synoptic Lecturer at William James, so I met him through the college. And I wrote to him myself. We talked over with the internship program was all about, the kind of thing I'd like to do. And, you know, of course the first it depended on where he was in his work, but I was very persistent. We kept in touch, and it worked out very well. That I could come out, do research, and be involved in the script writing process with him. When my internship was over, I stayed in New York and continued to work with him. [Barbara] Didn't you write a poem that you sent to him, or something? �[Rosemary] That's right, my initial meeting with Hurwitz was that he brought a film to William James. It was a film that I don't believe has been shown in the United States at all. It was his new film called "Dialogue with A Woman Departed." I'd never seen anything like it, and I was very excited by the film and by Leo. He asked for responses to film, and I wrote him a poem I spent a little time on it and got to him before he left. So, we had a very tremendous encounter. Where he enjoyed my poem very much, and I spoke about his film. And we kept in touch ever since then, so... [Barbara] People are not going to know what you mean by a Synoptic Lecturer. [Rosemary] Okay. [Barbara] What does it mean? [Rosemary] Right… the Synaptic Lecturer program at William James was a situation where students could be involved with up with the personality, author, filmmaker, a poet. People that they brought onto campus to spend time with the students to lecture and visit the classes. Leo was a Synoptic Lecturer. He brought his films and spent time in classes. Spent time meeting students, answering students’ questions. And it was a very wonderful opportunity to not only see someone's work, but really get to know them and let them have you know real responses to the work. [Barbara] People at a more traditional college environment might say: "Isn't that an easy credit?" I mean how would you respond to this whole notion that this stuff is so vague and amorphic that there's not really any learning going on, or something like that, you know? [Rosemary] Right. I think that because William James college had no grades, no tests – these kinds of things that create a measure or formula for learning – people assume that it must've been something that you could slide right through, and there was nobody checking up on you or this kind of thing. But it was quite the opposite experience, really. Because they were small classes. You got to know your advisor, and your professors quite well. And they got to know how well, you know, they got you know you're writing, what you are capable of, they have certain expectations of you that came out you know rather soon in the whole college experience. They got you know what you were interested in, you know, how your writing was excelling, whatever. So, there was no way to really slide through something it was, you know, you couldn't hide from the real responsibilities, or from the expectations people had of you. You really had to be involved. And you know, of course, I enjoyed very much being involved. I found it to be very difficult at times, but not difficult in a negative way. But a kind of challenge, very challenging. �[Barbara] In other words, the notion that “it has to be suffering, to be learning” is sort of beside the point. In other words, you're saying that you worked hard, but being hard doesn't cover it. [Rosemary] Right. Right, well the whole idea of students being active and responsible for their own educations made the, I think, effort that you put into your work much greater. [Rosemary] But the rewards were much greater. You really could get involved in things. You took great pride in turning in something that had real substance. That you'd really thought about, and if what you wanted to turn in, that was substantial and important to you, was going to take you three weeks more. You could just let your professor know, this is what you're doing and I'm going to take this much time and things could work out that way. So that essential things really to come through. [Barbara] Do you remember when you came to James? You came out of high school, right? [Rosemary] Yeah. [Barbara] Okay, do you remember that you had to have some transition into this philosophy? [Inaudible] Or something? [Rosemary] No, it was a very stimulating place when I first came to William James College. I remember being in classes that, you know, were no comparison to high school. And as a freshman you worry if you're going to be able to kind of take on these college classes. But, at William James College, you could sense there was something going on. It was intimidating at first, but you came to realize that your experiences, and things that you think about, and you know, experiences you've had in your life are relevant, are important you don't have to be an expert on something to have something to say in a class. People were interested in finding out about you. So, you know, with a little bit of confusion from the transition from high school to something so really sophisticated and involving. There was a little transition in there, because in high school we were spoon-fed graded… your goals were really quite defined. At William James College, people didn't really define things for you. You could kind of see, you know, you made your own decisions about what you were interested in and then there was sort of encouragement. This whole, you know, these kind of adult issues, and adult educational concerns where your concerns from the start. I mean there was guidance and conversations, but it came quite clear to you that, you know, the philosophy, so to speak, that was going on here was really to your advantage. And something that you could really work with and become a part of. You know, �it took me a few classes. I remember a class I took with Inge Lafleur. Um, no. Aimee(?) Bijkerk (?). Her name was Aimee(?) Bijkerk(?) My instructor in Jungian psychology, and it was my first year William James and I was very much interested in Carl Jung. So, I took a course specifically about him, that was tremendously rewarding. You'd spend a lot of time reading Jung, talking about Jung, and getting a handle on how these things related to art, symbols, and it was a wonderfully stimulating class. When it was over, I had a tutorial was Aimee (?) where I asked her: "What I am supposed to do this class--with this Jungian psychology?" [Rosemary] I was interested in therapy at the time, and I asked her: "How does a therapist work with all this information?" And she explained to me, which I understand more and more as I get older, I guess, that what you can do with this kind of information is that it helps you develop an attitude. That there isn't just one way to think through an idea. There isn't just one way of handling a problem. There are many ways, and there are many ways that are related to each other. There are things… there are ways in which schools of thought can overlap, and by diving into something in particular like Jung, you can work on… it sort of develops a sensitivity to the many ideas that there are in the world. Now, this to me later became an explanation for William James College as a whole. Because I have really developed an attitude, a way of thinking that where I feel capable of taking many things into account because of the integration of ideas. And I found this sensitivity added to approach to learning and to living that was very well rounded and took a variety of things and brought them together. Was what was happening at the college. [Barbara] One question on this tape. Then we'll probably change tapes and get you something to drink. [Rosemary] That would be great. [Barbara] Can you remember a class early on, or later on that – and this is not to gossip – but the experience where it just didn't work where you needed it to? [Rosemary] God, I might want to talk about that. Let me see… [Barbara] Because, it wasn't... [Inaudible] [Rosemary] Yeah. I had a class that I think was kind of an experiment. An experiment for everyone involved. This kind of thing was allowed to happen at William James, you know. Someone had an idea for great class, and they pulled in some students that were really interested with a real hook. Course title, you know, "Something in the Modern World" or whatever. So, I took a class, and I was a freshman then, that turned out to be very nebulous, and it was at a time in my �education where I needed to see how things fit together quite directly. I was dealing with some very metaphysical ideas and I didn't, you know, I wasn't told not to take this class. But anyways, I took it. Had to write papers about something I had no confidence writing about – this was psychology. It was the history of psychology. It was pulling together many schools of thought in a way that had no glue. And people were very… there were some very intellectual things going on there that were working for some people, and not for everyone in the class. I wasn't alone, but I found the whole experience very stifling. [Rosemary] You know, we went through six to eight weeks before, you know, there'd be a break where I might say to someone: "Gee, this isn't sinking in." And they say: "Oh, I don't get it either!" You know, so we had… but, interestingly I did get some papers out. What I wrote about was my problems with the class. I expressed why I was having problems, and this broke down some barrier of silence I was having. The instructors paid attention to my complaints. We talked about them. We talked about them in the tutorial. I still feel like I didn't learn very much, but I struck up some real conversations with people as to why. And I met a lot of people who were going through similar experience. There was still a community, you know, a forum for some real communication. Which was going on all the time. So, you don't really regret experiences like that. But it was unusual. [Barbara] Would you like to stop for a minute? [Rosemary] Yeah. [Barbara] It's going very well. [Rosemary] Yeah. Juice! [Barbara] Okay. Something that's really important to talk about is what happened when you went on the East Coast in terms of your education? [Rosemary] Right. Well, I went out to New York… [Camera operator] [Rosemary] Fine. [Camera operator] [Barbara] Wait a minute, let me stop this here. Because we are almost out of tape here. It would be lousy to stop. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_01_Willey Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Willey, Rosemary Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Rosemary Willey interview (1 of 3, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Rosemary Willey by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Rosemary Willey was a student of William James College from 1977 to 1982. In this interview, Rosemary discusses her time being a part of the William James community, in addition to her internship and work with documentary filmmaker, Leo Hurwitz. This interview is part 1 of 3 for Rosemary Willey. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Hurwitz, Leo T., 1909-1991 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives