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Zipay, Sue
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Sue Zipay
Length of Interview: (31:44)
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Chelsea Chandler
Interviewer: “Okay, Sue, start us with some background on yourself, and to begin with,
where and when were you born?”
I was born in Medford, Massachusetts in 1934.
Interviewer: “All right, and then how—where is that relative to Boston?”
I believe it’s west of Boston. I only was born there. I didn’t live there.
Interviewer: “Oh, okay, okay. Where did you grow up then?”
I grew up in Hingham, Massachusetts, which is south of Boston. Maybe thirty miles south of
Boston.
Interviewer: “Okay. At that point, was that kind of a small town on its own, or was it still
suburban Boston?”
It was a very small town. I think my high school graduating class was not even a hundred.
Maybe it was eighty to ninety students.
Interviewer: “Okay, and you’re a kid during World War II. Do you remember much about
what life was like in the war years in that period?”
Very little. I remember that we had blackouts on the cars. (1:03) They’d have to paint the
headlights. Half of them were black, and we had rationing, of course. You could only have
coupons to buy butter and meat and all that kind of stuff. And I remember seeing stars in the
windows of the people that had boys in the service. My brother was in the army. He got wounded
and ended up in the hospital and what have you. He’s okay now.
Interviewer: “Okay. So the war was definitely around at that point.”
Yes. But the best thing I remember about the war was the day it ended in 1945 when everybody
was dancing in the streets. It was a celebration that you would not forget.
Interviewer: “Okay, and where did you go to high school?”
�Zipay, Sue
I went to Hingham High School.
Interviewer: “Okay, and when did you graduate?”
1952.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now how did you learn to play baseball?”
I had four brothers, and I just was always athletic. I mean, if they got me a new pair of ice skates,
I skated. I, you know—I just—That athletic ability came natural to me. (2:03) So when we
started playing baseball, I could field grounders as well as they could, I could hit the ball as well
as they could, and when they went to have a sandlot game, they would knock on the door and
holler for me to come with them. So that’s kind of how it happened, and that’s how girls in those
days learned the skills of baseball. They don’t have that opportunity now because of little league.
That’s what we’re trying to correct. The All-Americans are trying to get some way for young
girls who prefer to play baseball instead of softball the ability to hone their skills, and that’s—
Interviewer: “Okay. Now did your school system have any athletic programs for girls?”
They had some, but their basketball team was horrible, so I played CYO basketball, which is a
little better.
Interviewer: “And what is CYO basketball?”
That was a Catholic Youth Organization. And I played on the softball team, of course, and it was
quite boring because in those days most girls couldn’t play very well. You might have one or two
or three on the team that could really play, and the rest of them were pretty bad. And I played
field hockey. The field hockey team. Whatever was available I played it.
Interviewer: “Okay, and on the softball team what position did you play?”
I played shortstop because that’s where all the balls went. I just wanted to be wherever it was.
Yeah.
Interviewer: “All right, and at what point did you learn about the All-Americans?”
That wasn’t until I graduated. My softball coach said, “Did you know there was a professional
baseball league in the Midwest?” I had never heard of it, and I couldn’t believe it. And it just so
happened that the chaperone for the Rockford Peaches lived about thirty miles away from me in
Natick, Massachusetts. Her name was Dottie Green. She was the original catcher or one of the
original catchers for the Rockford Peaches. Hurt her knee badly and ended up a chaperone. So I
drove up to her house and had a tryout on her driveway, and about two weeks later, I got a
contract in the mail.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now how did you originally wind up in contact with her?”
�Zipay, Sue
From the high school softball coach. (4:14)
Interviewer: “Okay. So the coach knew her?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “And then he made that connection?”
She made that connection. Correct.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now when you first went and met her, what impression did
you have, or what did she tell you about the league?”
She didn’t tell me too much. We just went out and got a ball, and she threw me some grounders
and, you know, vice versa. And I think she was just looking to see what kind of skills and how I
moved. And you can tell an athlete when you see them, you know. Since I went into tennis when
I was older, and I can tell you a tennis player at age nine whether they’re going to develop into a
good one or not. So you just kind of know.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. So now they’ve signed you up. Do you remember what they
were offering to pay you at that point?”
They paid me fifty dollars a week, and I believe it was two dollars a day for meals, which was
adequate in those days. And of course, I think every girl in the league will tell you they would
have played for nothing.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now at this point did you have a job, or…?”
I didn’t at that time, and then when I came back in the summers, I did. I was a secretary for
Raytheon Manufacturing, which is a big Boston company.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. So now, well, it’s kind of launched you into your career. Do
you go someplace for spring training, or do you join the team when it’s already playing?”
I met them in South Bend. I got on the train in Boston at age—I think I was eighteen—against
the wishes of my mother and my aunt. They gave me a little, brown bag with a lunch on the
train. Had very little money. And so I went to South Bend. Was supposed to meet them there. I
went to the—I believe it was the Oliver Hotel. And I went there, and nobody was there. (6:02)
So I got the smallest room and the cheapest room they had in the hotel because I didn’t know if I
was going to have to pay for it or what. And a couple hours later, I got a knock on the door, and
there was Dottie Green, the chaperone, saying, “What are you doing in this little room?” And
from then on, then we had spring training. And, you know, that was it.
Interviewer: “Okay, and now was the league still training together at that point, or were
the teams now training separately from each other?”
�Zipay, Sue
The teams were training separately. Yeah, we were separate. Yeah.
Interviewer: “All right, and I think you had told me before we started this. You played for
the Rockford Peaches. But you’re in South Bend?”
That’s where they had the spring training.
Interviewer: “Okay. So all the teams were there, but they—”
No. Just the Peaches, and I don’t know why.
Interviewer: “So the Peaches were training in South Bend, Indiana?”
Yeah, and don’t ask me to explain that.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. So you did not see the Blue Sox there?”
No, no.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. So what was that—Do you remember the first day of spring
training? What it was like to go in there?”
I was scared to death, especially when I saw the women play because I thought I was pretty
good, and then when I saw the level and the abilities there, I realized I was just a small fish in a
big pond. And so we had our spring training, and Johnny Rawlings hit some grounders to me at
shortstop, and I just—I was so tired and so excited and so nervous. I just played, and it went
well. But there was no way I was ever going to become shortstop on that team as long as the girl,
Joan Berger, was there. She was an excellent player. And I know that I was really nervous for a
long time until he said to me one day, “Sue, you wouldn’t be here if you weren’t as good as all
the rest.” And so that kind of settled me down a little bit.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now about how long did spring training last?”
Oh, gosh. I don’t remember. Two or three weeks maybe. I remember I threw my back out. Yeah,
and I’ve had trouble ever since. Didn’t know. I thought maybe I was just stiff from all the spring
training because, you know, I could hardly walk up the stairs. I could hardly move my right leg.
And the chaperone finally decided I had something physically wrong with me, not just muscle
aches, so they took me to a chiropractor. (8:16) I’d never been to one in my life. And eventually
it worked out. But that was a long, long time ago, and I’ve had trouble ever since.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now did you have trouble hitting? I mean, playing baseball with the
good pitching?”
I had trouble hitting in the games because I was really nervous, and as you know, you go out
there as a girl, you never have people in the stands like boys. You’re not used to that, of course,
you know. You’re used to playing in the cow pasture where nobody’s watching. I remember
�Zipay, Sue
playing in the schoolyard when I was in seventh grade, and I’d be out there hitting the ball over
the fence. And all the teachers would be lined up in the window, looking out there and smiling
because it was—I was a novelty, I guess, at that time. But yeah, I was very nervous, and I look
back now and say, “Oh, I wish I had the brains now that I had then.” Because I wasn’t watching
the ball and so forth. So my batting average was pretty bad. But I did a lot of fungo practice, and
I hit to the fielders. And I did a lot of batting practice pitching, and I could hit it. I could hit it a
country mile, but I never got a chance to really get relaxed enough to do what I had the ability to
do.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. So you’re in South Bend for spring training, and then when that
ends, now do you go to Rockford?”
You know, it’s been a long time. We get on a bus and went to Rockford, I believe, and then we
got introduced to the places where Dottie Green would find all the homes we were staying. My
roommate was Dolores Lee. Pickles. I’m sure you’ve got her on your tapes somewhere. She was
a hoot to live with. She brought her accordion with her from Jersey City. She was just learning to
play it, and she would practice “(How Much Is) That Doggie in the Window?” over and over and
over again. (10:04) And she was a late sleeper. Always made us late for practice. So we’d get
punished. Have to run around the track three or four times. But she’s a great girl. Great girl.
Interviewer: “All right, and what kind of accomodations did you have?”
We stayed in private homes. Bedroom, you know. Twin beds. And we’d have kitchen privileges.
When we’d come back from a road trip, of course, you know, usually the people that owned the
home would do something nice like leave a cheesecake out for us or something like that. And
they did our laundry, and that was good.
Interviewer: “Okay. Do you know if the league paid them for that, or…?”
I don’t know what the arrangements were. I’m sure they paid them. I’m sure they did.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then—So when you’re at home, what would a typical day be
like?”
A typical day we come home from a road trip, catch a few hours of sleep, have to get up in the
morning and go to practice, and then we’d have a few hours off. And then we come back to the
ballpark around four o’clock to get wound up and ready for a night game. And we played every
night seven days a week. Double header on Sunday.
Interviewer: “All right, and do you remember—Now when you first went in, did you start
a game your first game, or did you come in later to replace somebody, or…?”
I just got put in when he needed me, and I didn’t play a lot. Like I said, I was utility, so he’d
throw me at second base or right field whenever he needed me. And if I wasn’t playing, I’d
coach first base or third base. Yeah.
�Zipay, Sue
Interviewer: “Okay. So was there—So what did the team have then by way of coaches?
You had a manager. Did you have—Did he have anybody else helping him?”
Not really, no.
Interviewer: “Just the players?”
Yeah. Right.
Interviewer: “Okay, and would the chaperone help coach because she was a former player,
or…?” (12:03)
No, no, no. She was a former player, but no. She’d just sit in the dugout and take care of
somebody if they got a strawberry from sliding into base. Or I remember once I hit a foul ball off
the bat, and somehow or another—don’t ask me how—the ball crawled up the bat and hit me in
the eye. And I went down like a—like a lump, and it puffed up like this. And, of course, I said,
“Leave me alone. I still want to play.” But they took me out of the game. But she was there for
those occasions.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Then when you had road trips and so forth, I mean, how did
that work? You’re going to play somebody else. What happens?”
Oh, we had the—We had the schedule. We knew when we were leaving and get on the bus at a
certain time and travel x number of hours and go to the hotel they had us scheduled in. You
know, you knew who you were rooming with because you had the same roommate most of the
time. We’d get to the—wherever we’re going to play, and then we’d go out to the field and,
again, practice before the game at four o’clock. So it was constant all the time.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now what kinds of rules did they have for how you were supposed to
dress or behave, or to what extent were there still regulations on things?”
Okay. Well, you’ve probably got this from all the other girls, but, again, we couldn’t wear pants
in public. So if we’re in the—coming home from a game on the bus, and it’s ten o’clock at night,
and you’re in the bus with your jeans on, and you wanted to get off and get a cup of coffee, you
had to change and put a skirt on. We couldn’t smoke in public, and almost everybody smoked in
those days because we didn’t know that it was not good for you. So those were two. Two rules
that they stuck to. No pants in public. And no short hair. I mean, they wanted you to look like a
female, not like a boy.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then what about sort of personal conduct? I mean, did they
monitor you at all or tell you what you could and couldn’t do?” (14:05)
You know, when I came into the league, I think a lot of that stuff had disappeared, so nobody
ever told me what I should and shouldn’t do. But you obviously knew what you should and
shouldn’t do. I mean, you wouldn’t swear. You wouldn’t smoke. You wouldn’t wear pants. You
just—You just kind of knew.
�Zipay, Sue
Interviewer: “Okay. Now what sort of mix of players did you have on the Peaches? Because
this is now getting to the end of the league.”
Oh, we had—Well, one of ours—I don’t know how old she was. I thought she was 110 or
something at the time, but she was probably in her forties. Rosie Gacioch. And she was the
oldest player, and she’d been there for—I don’t know. Maybe from the beginning. And then, of
course, you’ve heard about Dottie Key who was one of the better players. Ruth Richard was the
catcher. She’s—I still keep in touch with her. She was a great catcher. We had a gal from
Boston. Lived near me. In fact, she drove me to and from the next year. I went with her. And I
think she’s—She’s got a little problem right now. She’s not really as sharp as she used to be. I’ll
put it that way. And she was a pitcher and had the greatest curveball you ever saw. The first time
I went and tried to warm her up, I couldn’t even catch the ball because it was dropping or
moving so fast. I think she had long fingernails. I think she did something with her fingernails.
Not really sure.
Interviewer: “All right. Now how—Do you remember how young the youngest players
were, or were you about the youngest?”
I was probably one of the youngest. Another gal came in with me at the same time. Jane Sands.
And then Jean Ventura. I was talking with her today. I think she was sixteen or seventeen.
Something like that.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now at this point did they have any kind of Minor League system, or
were there other teams affiliated with the league that they would get players from? Because
I don’t think—They didn’t have the barnstorming teams anymore by this time, so there
was not a junior league of any kind to get them.” (16:09)
No. Yeah, they were just getting what they could get. So they found me. I found them.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now what kind of fan support did you have?”
I guess in the beginning—and I wasn’t there—they said they were drawing up to ten thousand
people, which was great in those days. We did pretty well when I was there. I remember they
used to look around because they knew they had dropped off in attendance, and they’d say, “Oh,
how many did you think are here tonight?” And they’d say, “Two, three, four thousand.
Something like that.” But we had a good crowd.
Interviewer: “Did Rockford tend to have bigger crowds than the places—other places that
you played, or…?”
I can’t remember. Yeah, I can’t remember, but there were a lot of farm people. Farm boys that I
double dated with Pickles, you know.
Interviewer: “Okay. So there were still young men coming to watch the games. Now did
you get families coming?”
�Zipay, Sue
Yeah, a lot of families. And a lot of families liked to entertain us. I remember a lot of cookouts.
They’d have, you know, big cookouts with steaks and corn and all that. And when we had time
off, you know, they’d invite the whole league.
Interviewer: “Okay, and—Now you mentioned at the start of this that your mother wasn’t
very happy about your heading off. Did your family kind of get used to it after a while or
accept it or…?”
Obviously, they did. They had no choice because I was going to go. I mean, to me, that was the
greatest thing in the world, but as you know, in those days, a girl playing baseball, you know, it
wasn’t—It was kind of frowned upon, you know. I can remember them telling me to put the
jeans away, you know. “You’ve got to grow up, young lady. Stop playing with the boys.” The
girls couldn’t play, so what could you do? (18:06)
Interviewer: “All right. So you’re there in the ‘53 season. I don’t know. How did Rockford
do in ‘53?”
We didn’t win the pennant or get in the playoffs, I don’t believe.
Interviewer: “Grand Rapids won that year.”
Probably, yeah. I remember. You know, it’s such a long time, and I was there for just the two
years. And I was just beginning to get used to different players as a matter of fact. I remember
Gertie Dunn who has since, I think—A few years back she got killed in an airplane accident. She
was a pilot. She’s gone. The Weavers who could knock the ball a country mile. Big, strong girls.
But yeah, I don’t remember a lot of them.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then when the ‘53 season ends, you went back home, and did you
pick up a job then?”
Yeah, I was a private secretary. Yeah.
Interviewer: “And how did you wind up with that job? You just answered an ad, or…?”
Yeah, I just applied for it. Just went in there. Yep.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. And then—So you work for them through the winter, and
then it’s time to go off to play again. Now when they hired you, did they understand that
that would be going on, or…?”
I can’t remember when we got the notice that the league was finished exactly.
Interviewer: “Okay, but you did go back and play in ‘54, though.”
Oh, that’s right. Yeah.
�Zipay, Sue
Interviewer: “So you had one year there.”
Yeah. Okay. No, I just knew when it was time to go back. That’s when I went back with Marie
Kelley—Boston was her nickname—because she drove. And she was old enough to drive, so she
drove back and forth. Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now from a player’s perspective—I guess, for you, the ‘54 season—
Were you now starting to kind of get the feel of things or be more comfortable?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, and did you get to play anymore?”
A little bit more. A little bit more, you know. But I still had a lot to learn. Okay. I think at the—
A larger part of the league—They didn’t spend as much time with Johnny Rawlings. We didn’t
have training sessions. At the beginning, they really trained the girls. I think they were—The
coach before me—Bill Allington was his name, and I think Pickles played under him as well.
(20:14) But he really drilled skills into them. When I came, I had what I had. Raw talent. That’s
it. Anything that happened from then on I developed from watching and just listening.
Interviewer: “Okay. So the other players didn’t really work with you?”
Nobody worked with me. No. You just—You just picked it up.
Interviewer: “You just kind of went in, and you played. Okay. Now could you tell in 1954
that the league was in trouble?”
No. I didn’t have an inkling as to what was going on. Some of the older players did because they
knew. They knew that they were running out of money, and there was trouble.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now did—Were there fewer teams in ‘54 than ‘53, or were you not
really counting?”
I wasn’t counting because I didn’t know what they had before, you know.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now was Rockford—Were they able to make payroll? I mean, did you
always get paid?”
Yeah, we—Right. We never had a problem with that, you know.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then when you got down to the end of the season, did they tell you
the league was ending, or did you just go home and not know?”
�Zipay, Sue
I’m trying to remember how they notified us. I can’t remember exactly when it was, but it was a
very sad situation. I think it was maybe at the end of the season. They told that we wouldn’t be
coming back. Yeah.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Now Bill Allington wound up organizing a traveling team.”
Right, and Pickles went on that. She played on that. Jean. A few of them. For a couple years they
traveled around. They did quite well, too. Yep.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now where you asked to be part of that, or…?”
No. I wasn’t good enough. I hadn’t been there long enough. Bill Allington didn’t even know who
I was because I had never met him. (22:01) Johnny Rawlings was the coach when I went there.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. So now—Okay. Now you just sort of go back to Massachusetts.
So you go back home. So then did you have—Did you really kind of think or reflect at all at
that time? I mean, what’s happening to you. ‘What am I going to do now?’”
Yeah, yeah. It was very sad. However, I’ll fill this little—Something in there was—I had met a
young man who was a groundskeeper at Beyer Stadium in Rockford. A summer job from the
University of Illinois. And we kind of became an item. And it ended up that he went to pre-flight
school in Pensacola. And I went down there to visit him and bla, bla, bla. And so, to make a long
story short, we got engaged, and he’s the one I ended up marrying. And then I had three children,
and, you know, after that—What you do for the next ten years.
Interviewer: “All right. Yeah. Now did you basically—Did you stop working while you
were married and had kids, or did you have a job?”
Yeah. No. I just—I was full-time mother and housewife, which was wonderful. It’s a shame they
can’t do that in this day and age.
Interviewer: “Some can if they can afford it.”
But that’s the only way they can.
Interviewer: “Yeah. All right. Now—But you didn’t necessarily—You didn’t—You
couldn’t play baseball anymore, but did you still stay involved with athletics in some
form?”
You know, I tried, but when you have three little babies all born close together, and housewife—
The whole—I had no time. I had a lot of energy. I guess I put it into cleaning floors and doing
housework things and knitting and sewing and doing all those feminine things that women do.
And until the kids were—The youngest one was in maybe third grade. Somewhere around there.
And then some neighbors invited me to play tennis, and I thought, “I’ve never played tennis in
my life, but I’m athletic, and they’re old ladies. I can—” (24:09) And that’s when I found out it
was a skill sport. And I got hooked on tennis, and that became my second—second career. Sport.
�Zipay, Sue
Interviewer: “Okay, and so then how did that play out? I mean, you—”
Well, I worked at it. Kind of self-taught, and I got ranked in New England. I played a lot of
doubles. Not a very good singles player. I could serve like crazy because it’s kind of like
throwing a ball. And launching that volley. That was my plan. And I became very involved. I
went to school—Vic Braden school in California—and learned how to teach. Then I became a
teaching pro, which I loved, and worked with some programs where I lived then with the kids.
And when we moved to Florida, I bought a tennis club that was falling down and dilapidated,
and we turned it into a really nice, little place. And I’ve been there for thirty years.
Interviewer: “All right, and at what point did you get involved with the women’s baseball
league association? Because they’re—they’ve been now going for like thirty-five years.
How long have you been connected to them?”
Well, I’ve been—I can’t remember when the first one was, but I was on the board for a period of
time when Baumgartner was there. Can’t remember with any years. I’m no good at dates. And
then I went to a lot of the reunions but not all of them because I was busy with the tennis club,
and I’m paranoid about flying. Second reason. I’ve become more involved lately because they
got me on a vision committee, and then I started thinking about what the future holds and our
legacy. And the museum idea was like a lightbulb going off in my head, so I’ve been more
involved in the past few years. (26:01)
Interviewer: “Okay. Now talk to me about the museum idea. What museum? What idea?
And how did that come about?”
Well, some members of the league wanted to have a stand-alone baseball museum for women.
They talked about putting it in Cooperstown, which is way out in the sticks as you know, and I’m
thinking, “Okay. How are you going to sustain it? How are you going to support it way out
there? Who’s going to come?” I didn’t think it could ever work. That was my own personal
opinion. And then they talked about putting it somewhere else, and it’s the same thing. And I
thought, “Well, there’s so many sports nowadays, and females that are making so much money
in sports as well.” And there’s nothing in this country. There is no women’s sport museum
anywhere in this country. And we have a Hall of Fame here, a Hall of Fame there. The stars are
in there, but there’s no history of women’s sports. I remember Babe Didrikson came to one of
our baseball games. It was great. She threw some balls, and she pitched some. I’ll never forget
that because she was a great female athlete. And I thought, “We need a place where we can tell
all the stuff about the history of women and what they’ve gone through. And, you know, it’s
being lost.” I have a friend of mine that played on a field hockey team, and they toured Europe in
the 50s. Nobody’s ever heard of that. They never heard her name, and she’s got a scrapbook full
of stuff like that. And there’s a lot of that that’s just totally being lost, and I was hoping that
through this museum and the history of women’s sports, we can entice people to get on there and
talk about stuff that’s happened and what’s gone on in the past. And then, in addition to that, my
vision is that we have some kind of education. Classrooms for little girls to go in and say, “You
might not be a good baseball player, but you might love the game. What can I do? I can be a
journalist. I can be an umpire.” And all these careers that are now available in sports that weren’t
�Zipay, Sue
available when I was there. So that’s what I’m hoping is the history, education, you know, past,
present, and what the future holds for young girls. (28:01)
Interviewer: “Okay, and so how far have your plans come along, or what’s happened?”
We’re just in our second year of gala fundraising. We’re having a gala. October 20th, 2017 in—
at the Selby gardens in Sarasota, Florida. And then if we can raise enough funds, we’ll start our
capital fundraising. And so we have some people on the committee that have diverse skills. We
have a non-profit man and an architect and a builder and a woman who’s a professor at, I think—
I think it’s Vanderbilt. I’m not sure. But a group that have different skills to help put this thing
together, and they’re all really enthused. And I’ve talked to men and women, and they all think
it’s a great idea. So the enthusiasm is there. Now it’s a matter of getting the funds together. And
Sarasota is—I picked it not because I live in Englewood, which is maybe—just south of
Sarasota—but because it’s a huge sports, tourist town now. They have the new—Rowing
championships are coming there in a week or two, and they’ve got Bollettieri’s. And they’ve got
all the spring training.
Interviewer: “Bollettieri is the tennis academy?”
The tennis—He’s now branched out into football and baseball. All the sports he’s got going. So I
thought, you know, “People come there for sports, and where else? A women’s sports museum.
That’s the perfect place for tourism.”
Interviewer: “So you have spring training teams down there and Minor League Baseball
and all sorts of things.”
Perfect. And, you know, the Braves are coming there now, and they’re going to build their spring
training stadium about five miles from where I live. And I’ve got this little idea that maybe I can
talk them into having their facility become a training ground for girls’ baseball. I don’t know.
But that’s how it has to get started in order to have the little girls develop their skills because
there’s no other way. Otherwise, at sixth or seventh grade, they say, “You can’t play baseball
anymore. You have to play softball.”
Interviewer: “Well, I mean, the women who played on the Peaches—I mean, did you know
much about how they learned to play?” (30:06)
Same as I did. We all developed our skills the same way with the boys in a field. A cow pasture
or wherever we could, you know, throw a base down. We’d come. They’d knock on the door,
and you’d get your glove. And if there was six of us or four of us or three of us, it didn’t matter.
“You got the field. You’re up at bat.” I mean, we just had our sandlot games, and we played with
the boys, which helped us develop our skills. So that was the main way.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now to think back on the time that you spent with the league, how do
you think that affected you, or what did you take out of it?”
�Zipay, Sue
Oh. Cliché. The camaraderie. The team concept. That’s the big thing. Is, you know, you’re not
an individual. You’re part of a larger thing there. And the friendships, you know. As you can see,
they’ve lasted all these years.
Interviewer: “Did you gain confidence in yourself through this?”
I think I did. Yeah. I mean, like I said, you come there as a naïve, young girl, and you have to get
up and hit a ball with four, five thousand people watching. That’s something that’s difficult to
overcome and, you know. But it does. It gives you the self-confidence. And what Johnny
Rawlings said to me. “If you weren’t good enough, you wouldn’t be here.” You know, all that’s
good for your self-esteem.
Interviewer: “All right. Well, thank you very much for taking the time to share your story
today.”
I hope you enjoyed it. (31:44)
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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ZipayS2150BB
Title
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Zipay, Sue (Interview transcript and video), 2017
Description
An account of the resource
Sue Zipay was born in Medford, Massachusetts, in 1934 and grew up in Hingham. In grade school, Zipay recalled the wartime rationing, blackouts, and public celebrations at the end of the Second World War. In high school, she played for a Catholic Youth Organization basketball team, and a softball team as a shortstop, before graduating in 1952. After undergoing a tryout for AAGPBL Rockford Peaches chaperone Dottie Green, Zipay was contracted to play for the team during the 1953 season and attended spring training in South Bend, Indiana. Zipay did not have a set position with the Peaches, so she could be placed into any empty field position while also coaching first and third bases while not on the field. The team was forbidden to wear pants, smoke, swear, or have long hair while in public as to still give off a feminine appearance while not on the field. After acquiring a winter job, Zipay returned to the Rockford Peaches for the 1954 season and eventually learned that the League was being disbanded at the end of the season. Some of her colleagues went on to play for a new traveling team while Zipay got married and started a family. After having three children, she recognized that she could not return to any baseball programs and remained committed to serving her family while also taking up tennis in her spare time. Still interested in athletics, Zipay became a ranked tennis player in New England and attended Vic Braden School in California for a degree in teaching. She then moved to Florida and opened a tennis club, joined the Women's Baseball League Association, and helped organize plans for the construction of a women's baseball museum. Reflecting upon her time with the League, Zipay believed she gained a greater sense of confidence and camaraderie while playing for the Rockford Peaches.
Creator
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Zipay, Sue
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Video recordings
Sports for women
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball for women--United States
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
World War II
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-24
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/77dbc87293a6f2fa75f4caa7dd9e657a.m4v
f551e738e9b37977900c2426821b7485
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a3e5546e8add0b8ee4b875f405a5e192.pdf
1d9e42aa8709f77334d199fe1ed23adc
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
LOIS YOUNGEN
Women in Baseball
Born: October 23, 1933
Resides: Eugene, Oregon
Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 5, 20010,
Detroit, Michigan at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, December 9, 2010
Interviewer: “To begin with what is your full name and where and when were you
born?”
My full name is Lois Joy Youngen and I was born October 23, 1933 in a little town of
one hundred people called Ragersville, Ohio.
Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like?”
Full of activity, I had a wonderful childhood and my mother was an elementary
schoolteacher, my father was a principal and subsequent superintendent of schools and he
also was coach and he also was a varsity baseball player. So, I think maybe that’s where
I got some of my ability. 45:03
Interviewer: “What was your school like? You said it was a small town, was it a
small school?”
We had moved to a little larger town where I started first grade. The first few grades
were rather uneventful and by the time I hit the fourth grade we had moved because my
father got a better job and it was about then that I started playing with all the
neighborhood boys because there weren’t any girls in the neighborhood and if you
wanted to play outside, and there’s no television remember, and other than reading books
and trying to learn how to play the piano, which I didn’t do very well and they finally
gave up on me, I played outside with the boys.
1
�Interviewer: “Give us an idea what the lot was like. What was your neighborhood
like for example? Was it a big back lot? Was it a full diamond where you play
baseball? What was it like?” 45:57
A yard and a back yard and then a little later on when we moved again and my father got
a better job, we were in—all the houses were on one side of the street and across the road
it was farmland, it was pasture field, so we took our paper bags and our one ball, you
only had one ball and you reused it, and our bat which had copious amounts of, I guess
it’s electrical tape, it’s black and it also had a screw and a bolt through it, but that was it
and I remember that the boys weren’t too excited about my wanting to play, originally
when we moved to this new town with the pasture field across the street. 46:40
Interviewer: “How old were you roughly?”
Let’s see—probably ten, ten years old.
Interviewer: “You’re the daughter of educators, small town, you’re playing the
piano, but you don’t want to play, you’re reading, which is wonderful, and how did
you hear about this boys’ baseball going on? How did you happen to get involved
with that?”
Well, there were a lot of boys in the neighborhood and they always just played ball over
there, so I wandered over naturally. I was interested and I asked about playing and they
said, “You can play right field or catch”, and being rather intelligent I said, “well, if I
play right field at this age, no one will ever hit the ball to right field because when we
choose up teams, which you often do in elementary school, the last person to be chosen is
the one who gets to play right field”, so I said, “I’m going to learn how to catch.” I knew
2
�my dad was a baseball pitcher and if he could throw to me some, I could really become
proficient as catcher. 47:44
Interviewer: “Did you have a glove?”
At the time I don’t know if I had a glove or not, but I know my father was supportive,
which is important, so we went out and bought me a glove. I don’t think it was a
catcher’s glove originally. Later on I got the real thing, but I’m not quite sure.
Interviewer: “So in the early days in elementary school, why baseball as opposed to
anything else?”
Well, we’re talking about the nineteen forties and individual sports were only for those
elite families that had money and could have private lessons. There was no physical
education in the schools during the forties, there was some extra, what would you call it?
Varsity sports, there were some varsity sports floating around, but baseball was one of
those things that every small town had a baseball team. That had maybe changed some,
but I think there were enough remnants so you could play with a limited amount of space,
a limited amount of equipment and still have a very good time. 48:48 All the small
schools that I went to, there was no football, no track and field when you look out and
soccer was something you played in PE, I think for fifty years before it caught on as
being a really important kind of sport around the world, but maybe never will catch on in
this country, we’ll see how that goes. Anyway, it was a remnant of a sport that
everybody could play you could join in. Everybody had a little softball game at a reunion
or at a picnic. You played softball, but this was baseball with a hardball that we threw
overhand. 49:24
3
�Interviewer: “Did you have access to sports either by newspaper or radio? Did you
know what was going on in the world of baseball?”
I had a grandfather that kept his ear to the radio to listen to the Cleveland Indians games,
so we had no television, but we did have radio and I think our family was always so busy
trying to earn a living—we had gardens in the summer and I had odd jobs that I did and
every kid had chores to do around the house. Some of my friends at that age, in
elementary school, got an allowance and other students had to work and they were doled
out certain amounts of money if they asked for it and that kind of thing. I’ve lost your
question. 50:13
Interviewer: “You actually already answered it in terms of did you know about
baseball from the outside.”
Oh yeah, the radio and newspaper, yes, yes.
Interviewer: “Did baseball from the very beginning or when did baseball become
more important to you than just kind of playing?”
Well, that’s an interesting question. That’s a very interesting question. By osmosis I
suppose, I don’t know if I ever realized when. I got to the point where we gathered more
boys to play on our team and then we started to call ourselves the “Town Team” and then
we walked to other small towns five miles away, no soccer moms to take us anywhere,
we took our one ball and our one bat and we would walk and we would play and then we
would walk home. They would walk over and we would kind of pre determine, it was
usually in the afternoon because we didn’t have jobs or anything and we were free to
play, and I know that one summer, I think I probably was in junior high school by then
and we did this for three or four years, and finally they came down, the boys, the team,
4
�came down to my house and they told me they didn’t want me on the team anymore
because the other towns teams and kids were laughing at us because we had a girl on the
team. 51:40 All I know is I think I suppressed that to the point where I don’t remember
it, but my mother said, yes, I was there and I heard them ask you to do that, you were
devastated she said, but it took them about a week before they came trudging back down
and asked me to join them again because they had lost two games and they wanted me
back on the team. I said, “well, that proves that winning is more important than having a
girl on the team”, so then I sort of graduated from their team. The boys got older and we
did have a varsity baseball team in that town and there were a couple of women’s softball
teams in the larger cities, Wooster, Ohio and Ashland, Ohio, so in the summer the
manager stopped by, I don’t know how they found out about me, but they came to me
and asked if I would like to play. I didn’t know if I was good enough, but then I played
softball with the Wooster, Ohio softball team for a year and then I played with Ashland
probably two years. 52.42
Interviewer: “A couple questions between all this, what was your father’s and
mother’s reaction to your playing baseball with the boys?”
Nothing, I mean it wasn’t negative, and you know the research shows, all the early
research shows, that the father is supportive and supportive of their daughter playing.
There’s no problem and my father was always supportive and my mother probably didn’t
disagree at all because she was a horsewoman in her early years and rode a lot and grew
up on a farm and farm women had to help and get out in the field, so she knew what
physical work was like. She was a little bitty woman, but she use to drive when they
made hay and would drive the horses, so I don’t think she thought there was anything
5
�wrong with it and like I said, dad was supportive. They didn’t get to very many games,
but they had other things to do, but I think they were supportive. 53:37
Interviewer: “So a scout of the softball team somehow heard about you and came
along and said, “I understand you’re a pretty good ball player?” You played for a
year or two years?”
I played with the Wooster team one year and Ashland was closer and I think that was one
of the reasons, I can’t think of any other good reason, why I went from one to the other. I
went to play with Ashland and I was in high school by now, I was in high school.
Interviewer: “And you were still a catcher?”
I am still a catcher.
Interviewer: “Do you have a catcher’s mitt now?”
I have a catcher’s mitt now.
Interviewer: “This is a more difficult question I know because you’re delving back
quite a few years, but did you have any indication what so ever of what you wanted
to do with your life at that point? Did you want to be a teacher like your parents?”
54:31
I always knew I would go to college, that was never a doubt. That was instilled in me
from the beginning, I mean as long as my folks and I communicated about anything, I
knew I would go to college, so I knew I had to do well in school, which I did, but I
wasn’t sure what I wanted to do after I got there and what my major might be at the time.
Interviewer: “Baseball isn’t even in the consideration because it’s something you’re
doing because it’s fun?”
6
�Yes, doing it because it’s fun, yes, definitely. Fun, F U N, fun and winning too
occasionally.
Interviewer: “Did you feel like you were pretty good?”
I don’t know, I don’t think I ever really—I don’t think I thought much about that. I was
interested in the fact that we were a team and that every time we won the team won. As
women, I don’t think we spent much time thinking about statistics and who hit the
winning RBI that high. I think it was the team winning and we were interested in the
game as a team game. 55:41
Interviewer: “Now, you’re in high school so your morning you go to school, you
come back in the afternoon, when are you playing baseball?”
Probably on a night, like a Friday night and we might be playing on a Sunday afternoon.
Interviewer: “This is a neighborhood thing, so you got the bleachers full of locals
and those people egging you on with rah, rah, rah?”
It was the thing to do to, and here we’re talking about the nineteen forties and people
didn’t have a lot of money and I think we were much before television was popular. You
might have one or two people in town that had a television set. I remember going to visit
somebody in 1948 and they had this snowy television set, but I think there wasn’t a lot to
do. You could go to the movies, pay seventy-five cents and go to the movies, maybe it
was a dollar by then, or you might go out and watch, I’m sure we weren’t the only
softball team in Ashland, the men probably had one or two teams, and they still had
businesses that sponsored men’s softball teams, so I still think in the nineteen forties
softball was probably a pretty popular activity for a medium sized, we’re talking about
twenty-five thousand people or twenty thousand people, something like that. 56:58
7
�Interviewer: “Can you remember, and how did you hear about Pearl Harbor?”
I was sitting with my father in our den and we had one of those Zenith tall radios, you
wouldn’t know about that, sorry, and it had a big round dial on it and so on.
Interviewer: “I actually do know about that.”
You do? I wasn’t going to—and we were in Ohio and it was in the morning, I’m sure it
was in the morning, it was a Sunday morning, I don’t know if we had been to church and
come home or we hadn’t gone yet, I can’t tell you the exact time, but my dad was
listening, I don’t know when it got turned on or anything, but I heard my father call my
mother in and they sat down and I think I kneeled, I don’t know if there was a chair there
or an ottoman or sofa or something for me to sit on, but I get the impression I was
kneeling down and cocking my head and listening and we heard Roosevelt come on the
radio and talk about the date that would live in infamy. 58:10 From there on it sort of
changed everything.
Interviewer: “How did it change around your immediate world?”
All the good teachers went off to work in the war plants, so there was a shortage of
teachers and I don’t know if you know this, but maybe you do, but once a woman got
married, in the nineteen thirties, she no longer could teach. Married women could not
teach, so until World War II, married women were pretty much prohibited from teaching
unless they had a special kind of certificate to do something, but in general married
women, if the husband taught, the wife couldn’t teach. So, my dad came home and he
was the principal of a fairly good size school, and he had been losing all his teachers—
you could make five times as much—you know that’s still the way it is, you can make
five times as much money doing something else as you can teaching. 59:13 Everybody
8
�was leaving to go to the was plants, so what happens is dad says, “Mom, you got to go
back and teach third grade, or fourth grade, or fifth grade, but you got to get back in.
They are dying for good teachers”, and my mother was a very good teacher, so she got
geared up to go back and teach and those were the years when people only had one car or
one truck, you didn’t have two. Our life changed immediately after we started in 1941
and we had war drives and war bond drives and we collected scrap metal and I know we
had scrap medal. We had recesses where we got our physical activity and remember I’m
a lot younger than I was from your previous question, but we didn’t have any organized
teams during that time that I’m aware of. 00:07 I had a paper route and I needed some
spending money, so after we lived there a couple of years I got a paper route in that
small town.
Interviewer: “When did you first hear about the league, The All American Girls
Professional baseball League?”
I’m not quite sure whether I read about it, and remember this is 1951, actually it’s 1950
when I first went to visit a cousin in Fort Wayne, Indiana. I don’t know when I heard
about the league, but Fort Wayne had a team and I went to visit my first cousin that lived
there, and she and her husband had two children at that time and they said to me, “would
you like to go see the girls play baseball tonight?” Well, that’s a no brainer you know,
YES, and I’m sitting there and I’m sixteen years old and we’re watching the game and
Fort Wayne had quite good attendance in those years and I’m sitting there and we’re
getting to the seventh or eighth inning and I have no idea who won the game or even
played, all I did was I turned to my cousin and I said, “you know, I can do that”, just like
that, right out of the blue. 1:24 That surprised even me because I don’t think the
9
�majority of women in that generation are terribly aggressive and I surprised myself by
saying that, and by golly my cousin got on the phone that next morning about eleven
o’clock I had a tryout with Max Carey, our manager, our hall of fame manager and least
four other Daisies were there and he put me through the paces for about an hour and he
said, when we were wrapping things up, “Lois, we will be in touch with you. We will
contact you probably around the first of the year”, and this was probably in August or
maybe July of the previous year, so I went back home and finished my junior year and
started my senior year in high school. 2:25 Along about January third or fourth I got
and invitation to come to spring training in Alexandria, Virginia, Fort Wayne Daisies.
Interviewer: “What was your parents’ reaction?”
I think they were both very positive about it. I remember my dad talking to my mom and
saying, “well, she’s going to go off to college at the end of this year. She’ll have a
chaperone and that’s more than she’ll have at college. We better send her off, it might be
a good experience for her”, so they were kind of positive about it. 2:57
Interviewer: “I want to walk you through very carefully, with a lot of detail, what
was the preparation to go, packing and the whole bit, what you’re thinking about
while you’re going through this. I don’t want to just suddenly show up there, give
us an idea of what it was like.”
Well, first of all during those years, every senior class had been collecting money for
fifteen years to go on a senior trip. We picked potatoes and we mowed lawns and we had
car washes and you know, some of the same things they are doing today and we ended up
with quite a bit of money, so our senior trip was planned to go to Washington D.C.
Alexandria, Virginia is real close to Washington D.C., and I thought, “well, if I can plan
10
�this and work this out, I can go with the class trip on the train, I don’t know if I had been
on a train before or not, I can’t remember, and we would go down—I think we left from
Akron, Ohio, went through Youngtown, through Pittsburg, on down to Washington D.C.,
this was my thinking, and then I could go to Alexandria and the rest of the seniors were
going to go to New York because they had all this extra money and they could go to New
York and spend it freely in New York City for another four days or so before we had to
go back to Ohio. 4:20 It was standard for every small high school in Ohio to take a
senior trip, so I’m thinking, “maybe I can maneuver this so I can get to Washington,
spend some time with my class, go see some of Washington D.C. and then get myself
over to Alexandria, Virginia, which is just across the river”, so I’m thinking, “well, the
first thing I have to do is I have to get out of school for about three weeks in addition to
our senior class week”, so this is a big chunk and whether you believe this or not, you just
didn’t get out of school. You had doctor’s appointments, dentist appointments, other
kinds of appointments after school or on week-ends. You just weren’t allowed to walk
off the school grounds. So I’m thinking, “how am I going to maneuver this?” I’m
talking to my teachers and I got an ok from all of them except one and I talked to the
superintendent and it was like getting special dispensation from the Pope to get away for
four weeks. 5:23 I jumped through all the hoops that they could possibly put in front of
me. I had one teacher that I had to send homework back to and I promised religiously
that I would do that. Everybody else said, “go with our blessing, and make the team “,
even the fellow I was going to the senior prom with said,” make sure you’re back here for
the senior prom”. Anyway, so I arranged it with the Fort Wayne Daisies, Ernie Bird was
their business manager and we wrote letters, we didn’t call back in those days, long
11
�distance phone calls cost a lot of money, so you wrote letter and I think they probably
cost three cents for a stamp too, so we wrote back and forth and we made the
arrangements that I would go spend some time with my senior class and then go over
Alexandria for the tryout for the Fort Wayne Daisies. 6:12 So we got on the train, there
are fifteen in my graduating class, nine boys and six girls, that’s a small town, and all I
remember is all the mothers and fathers were there and you would think we were going to
cyber space or someplace, and they gave us sandwiches, we had food, we had this long
trip to go to Washington D.C., I think it took eighteen hours, it wasn’t that far away.
Anyway, I remember eating sandwiches, we left like in late afternoon, and we went
through Youngstown and Pittsburgh and all the Bessemer burners in the steel mills were
going strong and it was an absolutely gorgeous site to see them lit up the way they were.
That’s one of my vivid memories of taking that trip. The rest would be seeing the
monuments in Washington D.C. and meeting with our local Senator or Representative
and having our picture taken with them, which every small class does on their little
sojourn to Washington D.C. Then they left and went over to New York City and I went
over to Alexandria, Virginia. 7:20 This is where, and I don’t know if you want to
include this, but you may know that Peanuts, Mamie ”Peanuts Johnson” had an article in
the New York Times not too long ago, and she’s an African American woman, and we get
asked this a lot if we speak to groups and so on, and since Jackie Robinson didn’t get into
the majors until 1947 it was obvious that there was a problem with having African
Americans in our particular league as well. Well, here we are in 1951 and according to
Mamie, she came to Alexandria, Virginia during that time that I supposedly was there. I
never saw her, but she indicated that she came, she came with another girl, another
12
�African American girl, and they wanted to try out and whoever the management was at
the time that met them and talked to them, told them that there was no place for them in
the All American Girls Professional Baseball League. 8:20 Now, the girls like myself,
none of us that I have talked to ever have any interaction with them or knew that she had
even come and we feel bad about that, but there wasn’t really anything we could do
about it when we didn’t know about it, so that’s something that we have been thinking
about and talking about some. Anyway, we never did have, to the best of my knowledge,
any African American player in our league. So, back to what we did there, I got the
opportunity, I’m not quite sure why, but I got picked out of the group to do some public
relations things and we were supposed to play in Baltimore. 9:06
Interviewer: “Let me back you up a little bit. You got there for tryouts?”
Yes, so I’m trying out.
Interviewer: “Ok”
I’m hitting, I’m running, and I’m throwing.
Interviewer: “In the movie you get this idea, and I know it was in the very
beginning of the league that you saw from the movie, but you walk out onto the field
and there’s all these women out there, girls playing, is that similar to what happened
with you?”
I don’t remember, to be honest, but I don’t think so because there were two teams and the
object in the 1951 spring training was to have two teams, the Battle Creek Belles and the
Fort Wayne Daisies, all have spring training together and then you would play exhibition
games around, I think it was Katie Horstman talking about being in North and South
Carolina and so on. Well we played—we had an exhibition game scheduled in whatever
13
�the Baltimore Stadium was at the time and we also were supposed to play in Griffith
Stadium. So this was part of—we practiced in Alexandria and we didn’t practice very
long before we started playing, supposedly, exhibition games. 10:04
Interviewer: “You’re the new kid.”
I know
Interviewer: “what was that like?”
I don’t remember very much about the tryouts. What I remember about it was that I
whisked off to be on the radio and whisked off to meet with Maury Povich, he was the
sports supreme or one of the major sports writers in the country at that particular time. I
had my first glass of wine, don’t tell on me, at one of the lunches we got feted at you
know. We were taken to lunch and I had a glass of Rosé and I have no idea who ordered
it, but I didn’t, but I drank it and I think I enjoyed it.
Interviewer: “You are very articulate and I would imagine, because of your
educational background with your parents and what not, some of the girls may or
may not been able to speak as well as you. If they are going to get you on the radio,
you have to be able to talk and that’s probably what happened.”
Well, we were trying to get them to come out to the games. I the idea we’re playing this
exhibition, come out to the game. I do want to tell you about—we got rained out of
Griffith Stadium, but the one picture I have, other than with Jimmie Fox who came later,
is I have a picture of Clark Griffith, the grand old man of baseball, and myself standing
next to him and another rookie I have never been able to find out, and then Max Carey.
11:25 The four of us are there and Max Carey has the handle of the baseball bat and
Clark Griffith has the other end of it you know and I am there in my dress, you know
14
�dresses, we must wear our dresses, and it’s an 8x10 and it’s been chopped and cut and
pasted, but it is my picture with Clark Griffith and Max Carey and it’s the only one I
have. The interesting thing is, I made the team and the girl next to me didn’t and I don’t
have any idea who she is, but that is, that’s my picture. 12:01 The second thing I want
you to know, in the world, as far as that goes, is that we went, we were in Griffith
Stadium and I go and take batting practice and I stood up there and I said, “Joe DiMaggio
stood here”, and I’m standing there and I turned around on the other side and I said, “Ted
Williams stood here”, and we didn’t get to play, we got rained out, but at least I had the
opportunity to stand there in Griffith Stadium at home plate. I never thought about
getting behind the mound like a catcher would. I was thinking about hitting for whatever
reason and now that I think about it in retrospect, I didn’t think about getting down there
and getting into a catchers position like Jim Hagen who caught for the Cleveland Indians.
12:41
Interviewer: “Now, by 1951 was there the—did you have to go through the charm
school and all that kind of stuff?”
It is interesting that you mention this. If you talk to groups of people, especially younger
people, one of the things they want to know is, “was that charm school really for real?” I
have to say, “yes, it really was in the early years”, and most of the gals that went through
it thought it was worthwhile. They didn’t pooh pooh at it and they didn’t think it was
terrible. I’m sure there were some that did, but the few that I’ve talked to thought they
learned some valuable lessons going through the charm school.. I think that was Mrs.
Wrigley’s idea in the first place.
Interviewer: “What about you? By the time you got in?”
15
�This is what I tell my audiences, “by the time they got to 1951 they had given up on us”,
so that’s my response. They were more interested in the ability of the players. Some of
those were still maintained through the whole twelve years, but charm school was not one
of the— 13:44
Interviewer: “What were some of the rules, the ground rules, when you started if
charm school was not in there, what are some of the things they told you? This is
what you have to do as a player.”
We always wore a dress or a skirt when you went to the ballpark, when you were out in
public; you were invited to a luncheon, home from the ballpark. You lived in private
homes and usually there were two of us to a private home. I think there might have been
some occasions over the years where there would be four. I’m looking forward to seeing
my Blue Sox roommate here at this reunion. Anyway, the pants thing, nope, no pants, no
slacks and even by then women were starting to wear slacks more and blue jeans were
more common as far as everyday dress. 14:33
Interviewer: “Kathryn Hepburn in particular really made it.”
Took over as far as that was concerned, but that rule was sacrosanct, we did not wear
pants period. Now, if we were going to the corner grocery store or something, if we
happened to be lucky enough to have a day off, of course if it was pouring down rain, you
could wear your jeans. You were very careful about how you presented yourself to the
public that was still very important. You didn’t have to worry about make-up, you didn’t
have to worry too much about the length of your hair, that was something that was
included in this charm school business and make-up, yes or no depending, most of the
time you put it on after the game not before. I remember the idea of dating—I don’t
16
�think—I’m going to get side tracked here, but the movie A League of Their Own, has this
wonderful scene at the “Suds Bucket”, I don’t know if you remember, but where
Madonna does her thing and I’m thinking, “oh, if we only had a “Suds Bucket” when I
was playing ball, I would have been there at every opportunity. 15:40 I love to dance
and I don’t remember my date ever asking a chaperone whether they could go out with
me and I dated quite a bit.
Interviewer: “Well, let’s start at the beginning, you’ve gone through the spring
training with the Daisies and the key thing here, I think, is for us to understand, and
remember we’re trying to get as much of your experience as possible and not the
league, but your experience. You had left home to play in the league for how long?”
Four years
Interviewer: “Right, but for your first season, a season is what?”
I think that first year Peoria was in the league and both of the Wisconsin [teams], so we
had eight teams that first year and then it went to six and eventually it went to five, but
we started out with eight teams. First of all I went back home, went to my senior prom
and graduated from high school all in one week and then I became a Daisy. There I am
in Fort Wayne, Indiana, my roommate is Pat Scott and she’s another rookie and she’s a
pitcher and a very good pitcher. I’ve got my Daisy uniform on and somebody picks me
up in a car to take me, I didn’t have an automobile or anything and I had no camera and
by the way we didn’t have cameras, if we had cameras you’d have all kinds of things to
use. The only cameras around were the little Brownie box cameras, no one had a camera
to take any pictures of each other and that’s why we’re short on pictures. The girls keep
asking about former players pictures and none of us had any cameras to take any pictures,
17
�let alone a movie camera. So here I am again, I’m back on track. 17:24 At the ballpark
and Max Carey is our manager we’re playing seven days a week with double headers on
Sunday and a seven inning first game. I think originally they had a nine inning second
game, but the switched and changed that to—I think because it got a little too much
with—we played a hundred and eighteen games that first season, so we had seven innings
and seven innings and then you got on the bus and rode all night to Rockford, Illinois and
then you played on Monday night and then you played seven more games and so on.
Interviewer: “This is overhand at this point?”
This is overhand, yes, this is 1951 and overhand started in 1948, so we went to—we were
definitely overhand pitching. 18:12
Interviewer: “This wasn’t a problem for you because you started out overhand and
as a catcher you were catching overhand anyway.”
Yup, well I loved it because I have short fingers you know and the baseball is small.
Nine inches is very different from a ten inch or twelve inch softball you know and my
softball would every once in a while fly off into right field when I’m trying to throw to
second base. So here we are, I’ve got this wonderful little nine-inch ball that I can get a
hold of, so I really enjoyed playing with a regulation nine-inch ball.
Interviewer: “What did you think of the uniform?”
I didn’t give it too much thought, but the reaction, I think, on the part of a lot of the
players in the beginning, and very much like it was in the film, was, “you mean I have to
play ball in that dress?” I think once they started to play—I think the biggest problem
was the strawberries, I don’t think it was—well, the other problem, and I’m going to
digress here a little bit and go back. By the time I got in the league we’d already made
18
�them into mini skirts. 19:09 If you look at the original uniform it’s got like three yards of
material in it. It’s got all kinds of extra skirt and it was to be worn exactly, according to
the older women, it was to be worn exactly one hand length above the knee. Well, that’s
pretty long and then you try to bend over and pick up a ground ball, you’ve got mostly
skirt and no ball, so you know these gals—our players are smart cookies and the first
thing they did was say, “we got to modify this”, so I talked to some of the older players
and they said was one of the first things they did was they got safety pins and they would
safety pin all this extra material of to the right and to the side, so it was more straight up
and down. By the time I got to the league they had really wised up I’ll tell you, we had
the first mini skirts. We took out all of the extra material, tightened it up and we lifted it
up so it was right below the tight line, so you could completely spread your legs without
any problem. Now, it’s still a one-piece dress and another thing, they wanted us to keep
it cinched in so it looked like we had a waistline you know. 20:20 Have you ever tried
to catch with your arms and your dress tries to go up in the air? It’s practically
impossible, so I kept—we would loosen everything when no one was watching you
know, we’d loosen this decorative belt that we had, which didn’t serve any real purpose
except being decorative, so we’d loosen that up and we looked pretty great out there
because according to everything you’ve read and so on, showing a lot of leg is ok, and we
got to do it in the fifties when it didn’t happen all the time. They were covered up below
the knee, and there were a lot of good-looking legs, so it served the purpose.
Interviewer: “What can you recall, if not your first game, what’s the first memory
you have of a game in the very beginning?”
19
�The first memory I have is being sent in to catch the last inning or the last two inning of
the game and hopefully we were ahead. I would get to go in because I was the rookie on
the team. We had two other very good catchers, and I’d get to catch batting practice
often for experience, and that first year I just sat on the bench and watched everybody.
21:31 Like I said, I’d have to go out and warm up the pitcher or go out to the bull pen
and warm up the reliever that was going in or maybe you got in to catch the eighth inning
or the eighth and the ninth inning for experience, and I know that first year, in 1951, Max
Carey said, “well, if we send her off to Kenosha for August, or part of August”, and
Kenosha was a team that was folding at that time and there last year was in 1951, if I
remember correctly. They were traveling by car and all of their home games were all
now away games, they adjusted that somehow, so I got to play a few games for Kenosha.
I don’t remember much about that; it was only for about a couple weeks. 22:18
Interviewer: “Your first season, this is going to be a touch question because it’s—I
have to keep in mind that you’re a very young, seventeen your first year—Was
there any sense at that point, maybe later it’s different, but was there any sense at
that point, the first season, that this was going to go on anywhere beyond that year,
or next year, playing?”
I don’t think anybody thought too much about it, this was my first year, maybe some of
the older players who had been in the league for four or five years, had a sense, when all
of a sudden they’re thinking about, “we don’t have the turnout in some of these towns
and we’re not going to have a team in Kenosha next year”. Dropping from eight to six-that would have been a clue to me if I had been thinking about that.
20
�Interviewer: “I guess what I’m trying to get at is, today a young boy, even to a
certain degree a young girl, can dream about being a professional, not necessarily
baseball, but you’re playing professional ball, but did you see yourself as a
professional ball player?” 23:24
I knew I was going to college, so after the 1951, first year, I took what money I earned
and paid my college tuition. I did that for four years, so in essence my four years as an
all American paid for my Baccalaureate degree. So there and I think my parents were
very supportive of that, but that’s the way I used the money. I never saw myself or as my
one hat or one role in life as being a professional baseball player.
Interviewer: “Another tough question, and this as you look back—I look at my own
life and as a seventeen or eighteen year old, did I really know what I wanted to do
kind of thing, but did you understand that this was something very unique and that
this baseball team was something very unique at the time or was it just like at the
ballpark when you played in the back lot with the kids, it was fun, but was there any
sense—ok this is paying for my college, but was there any sense the this is really
something great?” 24:32
At least you didn’t ask me the question; did we know we were being part of baseball
history?
Interviewer: “I’ll wait until later for that one.”
I mean no, no, I don’t think there was ever a player that played in our league—my
question to you, do you think you’re going to get the Pulitzer Prize sometime? No,
everybody that I knew loved to play and the only time you didn’t love it was when you
got a strawberry. Another time when you didn’t love it is when it rained in Fort Wayne
21
�and they poured gasoline on the field and burned the field in order to get rid of the water
and you had to go out and play in that and slide in that and field ground balls in that.
There were times when you didn’t—or you were very, very tired. Sometimes in August
when it’s very hot and muggy like it is the last couple of days here in Michigan, it got
pretty hot and when it got muggy we got pretty tired. 25:25 Remember, we didn’t have
any weight lifting or any weight training, we might have had some batting practice in
mornings at home, but very seldom on the road. We had no batting helmets, so if you got
hit in the head, you got hit in the head you know. We wore men’s equipment and I was a
catcher and I was forever—I don’t know what kind of tape it is, the shiny stuff.
Interviewer: “Duct tape”
Duct tape, there you go, I couldn’t think of it. I was forever cutting the chest protector
down so I could lift my arms, and the shin guards came halfway up my thighs because
that’s all we had, we had men’s equipment. Our bats were men’s bats and I couldn’t find
a bat that was small enough around, Ted Williams would have loved me because he
wanted that really small handle there, and I needed that because I had short fingers and
the weight was thirty-five, thirty-six pounds [ounces], that’s Babe Ruth weight for a bat.
26:32 I think I probably would have been a pretty good hitter if I ever could have found
a bat. We’d go into a sporting goods store to buy our bats right off the shelf and there
weren’t that many. Excuse me, I’m getting carried away, but the playing of the game
was made a little difficult because of the fact that there was nothing much out there,
really, for women, but no, the question you asked, did anybody think they were going to
be, or where were they going to be in history, how important was women’s baseball
compared to others? I do know though because somebody asked me, Jean Faut asked me
22
�this, we were the first professional women’s team sport league—first professional
women’s sport period. The golf people have challenged it, the PGA has that, but they
didn’t come into being until 1948, 1948 I think Just a tidbit to throw in there, but I don’t
think any of them ever, I never heard any talk about it, we has more fun singing on the
bus and deciding what we were going to eat or what we were going to wear to something.
27:45
Interviewer: “How many seasons did you play?”
Four, I terminated the league; I finished them out in 1954.
Interviewer: “I want to start now in getting into the actual games, but I want to do
it season to season as opposed to jumping—if you want to jump in there it’s fine, but
I’m just thinking, because your experience actually grows as you get better season to
season and I assume you did, so how was the first season?”
I did get better, you’rer right. It was very enjoyable even though I didn’t play very
much. I got to meet and get acquainted with my teammates and Max Carey was a
wonderful—he was a terrific base runner, so you learned a lot about base running from
him and he was a good teacher and I was very content to be where I was and continue to
learn. I never thought about jumping up and down and saying, “I want to play”, which is
something they would be doing now days, the men would be doing anyway or, “trade
me”, one of the two. 28:49
Interviewer: “I did one of the interviews in Milwaukee and I asked this question
about the managers. Did the manager treat you as a woman baseball player or did
the manager treat you as a baseball player?”
23
�As a baseball player, let’s face it, look at society during those years; the men were in
charge of everything, religion, economics, political, and were in charge of baseball.
There were men managers, the men were the umpires, the men drove the bus, but they
treated us as baseball players. That doesn’t mean they didn’t treat us with respect, they
respected us as women and were concerned about things like we were up all night riding
the bus. The manager was very concerned about that and the bus driver, helping us with
out luggage and be careful that is a bad step or something. They were very aware that we
were women, but as far as the game was concerned, we were treated like ball players.
29:51 No yelling, they were very professional about—the professional players like
Jimmy Foxx and Max Carey and so on, they were very professional in their interacting.
The no crying in baseball, I know that’s Hollywood proverbially, but still there are people
who think that actually happened and if you made a mistake, in some ways, your
manager would maybe call you off to the side or into the dugout and talk to you
individually or after the game was over they might call you in. I only know of one
incident in four years of a manager, in a relatively public area, having words and I don’t
remember what it was about at the time, but they were very professional and I know as a
catcher it was all right for me to kick a little dirt on the plate and to maybe kick a little
dirt on the umpire’s shoes. 30:56 You had to be very careful what you said to him you
know. I didn’t talk much to the umpire and I didn’t talk much to the other players.
Interviewer: “An interesting thing came up in the interviews that I’d done in
Milwaukee and was that a lot of you learned how to play baseball, as you said, just
playing with the boys. You never had professional training per say, but the ones
that I interviewed said that amateurs contributed a great deal because they told you
24
�little tricks or little things that professional baseball players learned in their
training, but since you were kind of a new thing, did you get any kind of tricks or
hints about catching that helped you become a better catcher or did you just learn it
on your own?”
Not too much because none of the—none of my managers were catchers. If they had
been I probably would have, but that doesn’t mean I didn’t listen. I learned a lot about
base running and learned some things about covering the base and certainly—we had
infield practice and we’d have-- the ball would be hit in from right field and you have to
hit the cutoff player you know and bounce it in on one bounce to the catcher. 32:05 We
all knew the basics, I don’t know where we learned them, but we knew the basics. The
manager might, some managers more than other managers, some had practice where
others—it seemed to be individual, from the gals I talked to, it seemed to be
individualized. Different managers worked on different things. I know one of the things,
because I wasn’t playing regular, I didn’t get—I got about two swings in for batting
practice because, you know, we had to get the regular players and hitters out there, and
we didn’t have much bating practice before—the managers I played for, they just didn’t
do that and I know darn well that I could have hit much, much better, every year I got
better at everything, and I know if I’d had more hitting practice and had a bat that I could
hang on to and didn’t fly out to the third baseman every time it flew out of my hands.
33:01
Interviewer: “When did it change for you, in the second season or the third season,
where you were playing more? You said you were sitting on the bench most of the
time.”
25
�I sat on the bench and the next year was 1952 and Jimmy Foxx, we had six, I think six
teams, you can go back and check on this, but I think we dropped down to six teams that
year and for the next two years I think we were at six teams, and Jimmy Foxx was the
manager and don’t let anybody tell you that he wasn’t just a wonderful man, I adored
him. He was renascent, well the exact opposite of Jimmy Dugan. Now, he was an
alcoholic and I want the record—everybody knew that, but if you’re a health educator,
you know that alcoholics can drink quite a bit and it doesn’t show, so he’d go home and
do his drinking at night and he would show up at the ballpark sober the next day and he
was a great big guy, so I suppose he could drink a lot. 34:01 I don’t know, but I think
everybody that knew him, and Bobby Doerr lives in my part of the world out in Oregon,
and I’ve talked to him about Jimmy Foxx and he said that the drinking is what caused his
demise as a baseball player or helped add to that, and we just loved him. If we were
lucky he would take batting practice four or five times during the season and he would
hit the ball over our fence, over a pasture and out over a four lane highway, but we
couldn’t get him—we just couldn’t get him to do it very often and we had to beg him, we
had to grovel to get him to take batting practice, but we all adored him, so most of us feel
kind of bad that sports writers and movie critics have written that the Jimmy Dugan in A
League of Their Own is a thinly veiled Jimmy Foxx and every chance I get I like to say,
“you think what you want, but that’s not the Jimmy Foxx that I played for”, so that kind
of bothered me. 35:10
Interviewer: “In the second season did you start to play more?
I played some, not a lot, we still had two good catchers and we had lost two good teams
from the league. I was always the squirt, about 110 pounds, maybe 115 at my top weight.
26
�I wasn’t a home run hitter, and I was vying with six foot gals that were pretty good sized
and I couldn’t get a bat that I could hold.
Interviewer: “I think that was the reason. When did it change?”
1953 I started to play. I was traded to South Bend and I guess they needed a catcher, I
don’t know, but I was traded to South Bend and started to play regularly.
Interviewer: “Once again It’s unfair, but can you remember the feeling—because
you’d been sitting on the bench for two seasons and now you’re, you got a good gig
going on here, you got money coming in, you’re going to college and all, but there
had to be a difference in your emotions when suddenly you’re now at south bend
and now you’re playing more. Tell us about that, how did that feel?” 36:16
Absolutely, and I guess all of a sudden I realized that, “yeah, I belong here”. Maybe
before I didn’t think that I quite belonged. I belonged in all these ways, but as far as
being a ball player maybe I didn’t quite belong and all of a sudden I started to play and I
started to be able to throw the ball down to second base alright and I got knocked on my
whatever I suppose ten or twelve times and got knocked out a couple times, but I
managed to make the put out at home plate and it’s not easy when you see a six footer
coming at you. Anyway, I took a few of those knocks pretty well, hung onto the ball and
I think my feeling was coming that I really belonged. 37:14 My hitting was coming
along, I wasn’t a great hitter, and that didn’t seem to bother me. I thought it would come,
but my throwing was better and I always knew in my head what was going on, more so
than some of my teamates who couldn’t remember how many outs there were, but you
know, I always was on top—the mental part of it wasn’t any problem.
27
�Interviewer: “I was a pitcher, a lousy hitter, but such a good pitcher, this is little
league and I’m not anywhere in your league, and I’m talking as if we’re both
professionals here, but I do know what you mean. There is a certain amount of
compensation your players give you if you know that you’re a really good pitcher or
a really good catcher. You don’t hit as well, but we got hitters and we’ll take care of
it. What was the most challenging thing about being a professional catcher as
opposed to this sandlot kind of catching? Or maybe there wasn’t a whole lot of
difference, I don’t know.” 38:11
It’s hard to compare because you’re older and have had all these other experiences that
kind of filtered in here. I think part of it might be the idea of playing everyday rather
than just on occasion and you tend to build on that fact that maybe you learned something
last night and you still remember it. Excuse me, but rather than, “I made that mistake two
weeks ago”, because you didn’t play that often, plus the fact that we’re older and
hopefully you learn some things, you read the paper, you maybe read some things about
Ted Williams hitting you know. I mean, different players had a different, I think,
approach. 39:06
Interviewer: “Did you have any sense of how good you were?”
No, not the foggiest and you brought that up earlier and one of the things that I think is
interesting is I have always felt rather uncomfortable knowing I was on a team for four
years, but never contributed heaps and gobs. That I never was, although I played
regularly, especially the last two years and played well and the last year I hit 284 which is
in the top one third or yeah, in the top one third of all the players that played that year,
and I was up there and I feel good about that, but I always felt that I wasn’t quite worthy
28
�and I don’t know quite how to explain this. I never really thought about how to articulate
it, but I’ve always thought—yes, I guess that would be a way of expressing it, that I
wasn’t as good as some of these other players and therefore, I’m not worthy of being
included in the group and yet so many people, people that aren’t just my friends who
might tell me something like this, “hey, you made the league, you made the team, you
played, what else is there?” It’s just a “get a hold of yourself and quit thinking that way,
that thinking is obsolete, it doesn’t make any sense”. 40:34
Interviewer: “A lot of people didn’t make the league and another thing that is
really a good part of that movie, is that scene with Geena Davis and Tom Hanks
where she says, “if it was easy everybody could do it”.
That’s the scene I quote to everybody, throw out that” there’s no crying in baseball” and
get to the heart of the game of baseball. “It just got too hard”, she said and he said, “it’s
supposed to be hard, if it wasn’t hard everyone could do it, it’s the hard that makes it
great”, and to me that is the summary, the overpowering scene in that whole movie that
sums up what baseball is all about. 41:12
Interviewer: “I use it in my writing classes. I teach writing and I said, “If it’s not
hard anybody could do it”. I use that same example.”
It’s the hard that makes it great and to me that is the scene from the whole movie that the
women in this league should take with them to share with friends, relatives, and admirers,
fans, and forget that, “there’s no crying in baseball”, which is a clichéd kind of thing that
got thrown in there so Tom Hanks could do a little acting. I guess he did it well because
according to Pepper Paire, one of our catchers in the league who was one of the advisors
on, or whatever kind of a role she had as far as the film was concerned, she said, “they
29
�had to have ten takes of that with Tom Hanks because the cameraman would break up
every time he said, “there’s no crying in baseball”.
Interviewer: “So you just got to take it realize, “well, that’s Hollywood”. 42:12
Absolutely, but I’m sorry, but that’s the real clincher in that film, that’s my scene.
Interviewer: “I agree”
So I got better every year, all right? 1953 I’m catching with Fort Wayne, I mean with the
South Band Blue Sox and I catch a perfect game. Jean Faut, who pitched as probably one
of the all time greats in our league, she could play any position, she could hit the ball out
of the ballpark, she could pitch, she had all the pitches in the world, she pitched a perfect
game on September 3rd, 1953 and we beat the Kalamazoo Lassies four to zip in
Kalamazoo on their home turf. 42:56 I’m laughing because I have no idea if she called
the game or if I called the game, but I’m sure she did call her own game, so I take very
little credit for that other than the fact that I managed to hang on to the ball, all right?
People keep asking me who called the game and I said, “well, when Jean Faut’s pitching
she calls her own game and whether or not I called the pitches she liked and she didn’t
you know.
Interviewer: “Yeah, but something you might have noticed in baseball, you have to
have a catcher with the pitcher. It’s essential to the whole thing and she may have
been a great pitcher, but unless somebody was on the other end catching it, I’m
afraid the game would just not be the same.”
Anyway, that’s my big claim to fame. That and hitting one home run in Grand Rapids.
43:42
Interviewer: “I want to hear that one, please.”
30
�I hit one home run in 1953 with South Bend, I think it was—no, maybe it was 1954—all I
remember is that I hit it over the fence, it was in Grand Rapids and it was my one home
run and it might have been in 1954, I think it was in 1954. Anyway, 53 or 54 I got my
one home run in there. 1953 I caught almost the whole season for South Bend and that’s
where the perfect game came in. We were playing a shorter—I think maybe six teams,
but we weren’t playing as many games and attendance was starting to fade and I think, if
I’m not mistaken, when I reheard Ken Burns, they had it on PBS again, they talked in
there about the fact that in the early 1950’s all the major league ballparks had problems
with attendance. 44:42 So, I’m trying to put together—people want to know why we
quit playing and I hadn’t realized that the attendance had really fallen off in major league
baseball in the early fifties. So, it stands to reason that we wouldn’t have people coming
out to the ballpark either. They didn’t give any reason for it, but they said there was a
major drop off in all major league attendance during the early fifties, so obviously that
happened with us as well, so 1953 the season was shortened, 1954 I got traded back to
Fort Wayne. I didn’t ask why, I just picked up my stuff and went and Bill Allington was
out manager then and you’ve probably heard his name because he’s the manager in the
league over the years that everybody said, “if somebody cracked open his skull little
baseball would roll out”. I mean, he was a taskmaster, I don’t know if he did spot
quizzes, but he had the rulebook and he expected you to know the rules, he did a lot of
teaching and he was the manager of the infamous Rockford Peaches for many years and
then he came to us in 1954. 45:45 He said, “Lois, I’ve got a catcher, you’re too fast
you’re going to be a left fielder”, and he made me into an outfielder. I didn’t –well, I
roamed well and I was pretty quick, I had to make up for my other lack of strength and
31
�other things by being fairly quick, so I could read where the ball was going to go and
made some pretty good catches out there and I could throw fairly accurately and in left
field you didn’t need a cannon for an arm, only the right—that’s the interesting thing
about playing right field, you know when you’re a kid it’s the worst place to be and when
you’re in the majors it’s the best outfield position because you have to have the greatest
arm and you got to hit and do other things. Left field was a good place for me because I
could handle everything he needed and I hit. There’s something I want to share with you
if we’ve got time. I’m playing left field and we’ve been playing with this ten inch ball
and all of a sudden, around the fourth of July, I think it was a couple of days after the
fourth of July, it was around the fourth of July in 1954 and all of a sudden we get a nine
inch regulation baseball. 47:00 I’ve talked to the gals and I can’t get anybody for the life
of me, able to explain whether or not they ever really practiced with a nine inch ball. It
just sort of appeared. We got to the ballpark, the baselines had been extended, the
pitchers mound had been moved back to sixty feet when we had been playing with it a
little shorter than that. Same old bats and same old uniform, but they moved the outfield
fences back and they kept playing with the distance so they could—I remember hearing
bill Allington say, “If you can hit a home run, we got to move the fences back”, but the
thing that I haven’t been really able to digest is how we could go from a major change
from a ten inch ball to a nine inch ball and change the distances everywhere and not ever
have practiced like two or three weeks before in the mornings or sometime with this nine
inch ball, but it just appeared and bingo there we are with a whole new game. 48:02 I
don’t know what the newspapers or the radio, we had those two venues, but no television,
but what they had to say about it. I would like to go back sometime and do some
32
�research to find out how it happened. I know it happened because of the fan appeal and
they wanted to see if they could bring some more people into the—I think most of the
changes that were made over the years were made primarily to bring more people into the
ballpark. Softball wasn’t a novelty, but boy, throwing it sidearm from a distance with a
smaller ball that’s kind of different. The second part of my theory, since I’m allowed, is
that these managers knew of the athletic ability of the gals they had playing the game. I
don’t think they ever would have tried to change the game if they didn’t think the gals
could handle it. 48:51
Interviewer: “How did it end for you? How did you find out that it was the end for
you particularly?”
Well, fortunately I was playing left field and I think it was around the sixteenth of
August, around the middle of August after we’d made this giant switch to the nine inch
ball, that somebody in South Bend, the catcher, got injured, so they asked me if I would
go back and finish the season because they needed a catcher. They were—we kept losing
the catchers, but anyway, I got shifted back and I said, “Well you know if they need a
catcher, I don’t think I have much choice”. I had to go and that was the year that fort
Wayne was just knocking the socks off the ball you know. They had Jo Weaver and
Betty Weaver Foss and Jean Weaver and these four hundred hitters and home runs every
time you turned around and locomotors on the base pad I’ll tell you that and so, I went
back and finished the season in South Bend. Now, Fort Wayne won the pennant and I
remember going back and I don’t know, I don’t think—they had a banquet or something,
but they did give me—I got a scrapbook and it says Daisies “54” and you know I’m not
sure—I got a couple of things that they gave to the players. 50:08 But I finished at
33
�South Bend and it kind of finished with a whimper and I’m not sure we did anything in
South Bend to end thing s up, but I’ll ask Mary, my roommate, my married roommate
with I don’t know how many grand kids she has now, but we’re rooming together and
I’ll see if she has any feeling about how we ended. It sort of ended with a whimper,
actually. Now the thing that probably didn’t bother me as much was because I was
getting ready to go, I got my degree now and I’m out in the world, I got another goal in
mind and I was fortunate enough that I was very successful in education and went on and
they were four wonderful years, don’t misunderstand me, but they’re not my entire life,
they don’t define me. 50:52 My four years don’t define me.
Interviewer: “That’s an interesting transition for my next question. You say it
ended with kind of a whimper, but you had a life ahead of you and you and you had
a very productive life ahead of you. A lot of the WWII vets that I’ve interviewed
and even some of the women ball players, say that they didn’t really think about
their baseball experience as they’re going through their life. Is that true of you too?
Did you tell people you were a baseball player when you were an educator?”
I did on occasion and the response was, “oh, you’re a softball player”, and you’ll get that
from everybody. No one knew who we were and where we were or what we did. I
wasn’t until Penny Marshall came out with the film and people were coming out of the
woodwork, former students and colleagues say, “Why didn’t you ever tell us you played
baseball?” I said, “If you had been listening, I did tell you that early on and you
responded with “you played softball”? And I never could explain it well enough to get
you to understand that it really wasn’t softball, it was baseball”, and once the film came
out—51:58
34
�Interviewer: “That’s my next question. What effect did the film have on you? I
don’t mean a critical review of the film, do you know what I’m talking about?”
I’m going to give you a critical review of it. I’m in Eugene, Oregon and I get a call from
a local newspaper, the head of the sports section calls me and he said, “ I would like to
take you to see the film and the first showing is Saturday morning at eleven o’clock”,
and at a local theater, and I said, “well”, my mother lived with me for twenty-two years
and she was still in good health then, so this is 1992, so I said, “yes”, and I obviously
hadn’t seen it and hadn’t been invited to any of the premieres. I’m way out there where it
takes a pony express to get to me and no one had ever bothered and I didn’t get to
Cooperstown to the exhibit because my boss was an Englishman and he didn’t think—I
suppose if I had said it was soccer he may have—or cricket, there you go, but he didn’t
think I should go. 53:03 I had to work with the guy for another eight years or so and I
didn’t think it was worth circumventing him to go to the Dean, which I could have done,
but I opted not to do that.
Interviewer: “It shows that you didn’t think it was that big of a deal I guess, huh?”
Well, I had to work with this gentleman for eight years and he was in charge and he could
have made life very uncomfortable for me for eight years. There we are back to the
movie, so I meet him at the theater and we go in. The first thing is the music you know,
overpowering music. I don’t know how many minutes we were into the film before I was
crying and in another two minutes I was sobbing. I sobbed, and I don’t mean cried, I
sobbed through the whole movie. Talk about embarrassed, losing my cool, I just cried
and cried my heart out. I just brought back everything I hadn’t thought about for—since
1954 to 1992. 54:03 It all came rushing forward you know, excluding the hyperbole, the
35
�feel of it, and like I just said, I just sobbed for—I sobbed through the end and then I was
embarrassed and he wanted to buy me a cup of coffee or something and my eyes were
two big red blobs here and I told him I was sorry and I was embarrassed, but it just
brought back this rush of memories and I’m sorry, this is just the way I reacted to it.
54:35
Interviewer: “How did that movie change you or change your perception of your
participation after that. You’re past the crying and the emotional element and now
you’re into day two, day three and the rest of your life. Did it have any effect on you
in terms of other people reacting? You said your students were talking about it and
stuff. How did it change you?”
A number of people wanted to go see the movie with me. They wanted to know, all of a
sudden there’s this big gigantic interest in this movie. It made lots of money because it’s
still being shown every two months or three on cable TV, so anyway, I went, I must have
gone eight times with different groups of people who wanted to go see the movie and
we’d go have ice cream or something afterwards and they could ask me about the movie
and then I got to—I was a chapter in a book and the university bought the book, that
chapter to put in their quarterly. 55:36 Then more people had a chance to read it, but
immediately after the film, I think I went seven or eight times with different groups of
people and I was considerably calmer and could explain what happened and then people
started asking me if I would come and speak to this group, the rotary, there are three
rotary’s in Eugene and while the film was still being shown I got invited to speak to a lot
of-Interviewer: “Were you at all surprised at all of this?”
36
�No, honestly no, because finally our story got told and it was the truth. Now, there are
some things that are out of order and probably the most significant is the fact that in 1943
we would have been throwing underhand and not overhand, but there was a germ of
truth, even Stillwell, you know I played for the Blue Sox and Jean Faut, the pitcher for
the no hit game, was married to the manager, Karl Winsch, and they had a little boy and
he traveled on the bus with us, but he was a little boy of the fifties and not the 1990’s, so
you never heard of him, you never knew that he was there, so they took some of these
ideas and did the Hollywood thing to him, which I could stand. 56:46 I’ve always said
that it captured, that film captured the spirit of the league and the spirit of the women that
played, the spirit of the game, those three things, the spirit of the league, the spirit of the
game that we played and the spirit of the women that played because not being nit
picking, I thought Penny Marshall did us just fine. 57:08 I was pleased with her film.
Interviewer: “Looking back now and for the record, Where do you think this all fits
into the whole scheme of things for—and lets get really big here, you’re an educator,
I’m an educator and we know that in human history there are moments, some of
them tragic, some of them great, some of them—you look at the time line of history
and there’s all these things. We’re blips on these things, but where does the All
American Girls Professional Baseball League fit into all of this?”
Well, I think we need to stop taking credit for being a pioneer in women’s sports. Title
IX is what did this for us. Title IX came along in 1972 and any parent that’s got a child,
male or female, that can get a college scholarship now, we can’t—you know if you’re
going to get $100,000.00 free scholarship to Stanford or Ohio State or Michigan or
wherever it is, it’s not to be sneezed at and that came with Title IX. 58:12 Also, the
37
�proliferation of other women’s professional sports came with Title IX because until
Penny Marshall got to us, nobody knew we even existed, so I see us a sort of a blip, a
very fond, warm, fuzzy blip or whatever you would like to call it, an anomaly actually
and I’m often asked if women belong playing with men’s teams and no, I don’t see that
because of lestosterone and lack of and levers, you know, they’re bigger, they’re
stronger etc., but I do think if the ever wanted to have an al American girls, Women’s
professional baseball team again, and there were enough women who were interested in
doing it, we have professional women’s fast pitch softball and most of those gals, that’s
the way the original All Americans got started. 59:06 Most of them made the transition
to the smaller ball and the longer distances, some couldn’t, but I don’t think we should e
taking credit, in retrospect, for something that really title nine, through federal funding
and balancing the men’s and the women’s varsity sports at the collegiate level, and the
high school levels, helped balance out.
Interviewer: “But you have to admit the number of women who credit you,
regardless of whether the film was there or not. I talk to athletes, women athletes at
our university. There’s a coach at our university who you were a major inspiration
to and knew enough about the fact before the movie.”
We may be an inspiration and I’m not saying that our story won’t inspire prospective
women athletes, and I think we do everything we can to be the voice as well as the face
of the AAGPBL speaking as often as we can, but yes, sure I would love to be an
inspiration to a group of Babe Ruth baseball ten year olds, girls, and boys.
Interviewer: “I’m trying to get my mind around that.”
38
�Interviewer: “Let me ask you the last question and I really appreciate you put up
with this for so long. You mentioned earlier about how you played baseball as a
child and you enjoyed it. You played the baseball as a professional with the idea
that you were going to go to college, you had a larger picture involved, but now,
looking back at that experience, and now you have pre-baseball professional
baseball after you watch the things you’ve accomplished that you’re proud of, this is
just one of them, I know that, but where does that fit in your life?” 1:02
Oh, it’s extremely important because I’ve been sports oriented you know, it’s right up
there with some other awards, alright? It was only four years out of my like, but it’s a
significant four years. I wouldn’t trade those four years for forty of some of my other
years, and it’s even better now that we’re older because we can embellish all those stories
that we’ve been telling over the years you know? You really did get to third base, but I
tagged you, no you didn’t, it was second base, what do you mean, you never got to third
base. It’s a significant part of my life. I simply meant—what I’m saying is it doesn’t
define my total life, but it’s a significant portion of it and I’m extremely proud of it. I
wear my ring with pride and thank god I had those four years and I probably would have
played four more if they had them because it worked out well being a teacher and coming
back and I was getting better. 2:10 That made me feel good.
39
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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RHC-58_LYoungen
Title
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Youngen, Lois (Interview transcript and video), 2010
Creator
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Youngen, Lois
Description
An account of the resource
Lois Youngen was born in a small town in Ohio in 1933. She grew up playing baseball with boys from her town, and played on a boys' team for several years before switching to a girls' softball team while in high school. She learned about the All American League while visiting a relative in Fort Wayne in 1950. She joined the league the next year and played for Fort Wayne, Kenosha and South Bend as a catcher and outfielder until the league folded in 1954. She used the money she earned as a player to go to college, and eventually earned a doctorate in Physical Education and taught at the University of Oregon.
Contributor
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Boring, Frank (Interviewer)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Women
Language
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eng
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2010-08-04
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8e6d48b0e5c7c6d3814d83c018200257.m4v
7e4edfe8bd6732feb5ec98285841618d
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a869307cf1ab7639c73371219f3f9afe.pdf
c810c952e6380577a0b17747f698cf01
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Delores White “Brumfield”
Length of Interview: (01:09:42)
Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project, September 27, 2009,
Milwaukee, WI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, July 25, 2010
Interviewer: “If we could begin with, and boy this is going to get complicated, your
name, I mean the full part, and where and when were you born?”
My name is Miriam Delores Brumfield White and I was born in Pritchard, Alabama, May
the 26th, 1932.
Interviewer: “And what is the name that you go by when you sign your check and
whatnot and what is the name you go by in baseball?”
Today I sign my checks as Delores B. White and when I sign autographs for baseball, I
sign Dolly Brumfield.
Interviewer: “We got that straight for the record now.”
Yes, I hope.
Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like?”
I was one of three children, I was the oldest of three and we lived in the early years near
an elementary school and a block away was also a junior high school, so my playground
at the school was where I grew up, where I preferred to play the things that the boys were
playing, baseball, football and all the other things. We were on the school ground most
of the time. 1:16 Sometimes we were in the neighborhood and I remember some of the
childhood games we use to play. Under the house was a good clay pit and we could
throw clay balls at each other and this type of thing, but I primarily grew up on the school
playground. The junior high school had a baseball field and that was the time when the
men use to come and play baseball after their workdays in the shipbuilding era during the
war. 1:44
Interviewer: “What did your father do for a living?”
My father was an automobile mechanic.
Interviewer: “So was my dad, and your mother was a homemaker?”
A homemaker yes, until the war and during the war she then took her skills of typing and
shorthand into the business world and worked with an insurance company.
Interviewer: “Pritchard was a fairly good size town?”
1
�Pritchard is north of Mobile at that time that’s the location. We were really Mobile, but it
was kind of a suburb of Mobile, but it’s an independent city known as Pritchard,
Alabama. It’s a pretty good size because at that time it was the fifth largest city in the
state of Alabama. 2:32
Interviewer: “You were talking about the war, so do you remember Pearl Harbor
when it happened and how did you hear about it?”
Well I heard about Pearl Harbor because our next-door neighbor had a son at Hickam
Field, so that made it very personal and I do remember some of the early happenings and
particularly the day of December the 7th of 1941.
Interviewer: “I can’t do the math, but how old were you?”
At which time?
Interviewer: ‘At Pearl Harbor.
Well I must have been about nine. 3:05
Interviewer: “All right, so you were old enough to recognize that something big was
happening.”
Something was happening, yes.
Interviewer: “So you spent a lot of time playing in the school—your back yard in a
sense, was the school and the baseball diamond and all that. How did that all work
out? You’re a girl how could you play baseball?”
Well I was called the tomboy of the neighborhood. I did not like paper dolls, that’s what
the girls were playing and they would cut out these little paper dolls and have these little
tea sets and that never appealed to me. I’d rather have the beanpole and do the polevaulting over the neighbor’s bushes or around the school were big ditches and we’d pole
vault across the ditches. Those were the things that were more interesting to me and of
course we always had the basketball games and the football games and baseball games
and that was the environment in which I grew up. 3:59
Interviewer: “Looking back now and playing baseball with the boys, how good
were you as a young kid? How good were you? Were you a good batter? Could
you pitch? I mean how were you as a player?”
Well, on the playground we played a game called work-up and you got to do everything.
They would let me play with them and sometimes they weren’t too happy about it, but
they would let me play with them. I remember one incident, I had trouble with a
neighborhood boy who didn’t approve of something I did, I have forgotten now, but all
the way home from the ball game I was riding my bike and he turned around and I guess
he thought I was riding at him and I was not, but he lived next door and he was older and
he turned and threw his glove and hit me in the middle and knocked me off my bicycle.
4:51 I’m usually very peaceful, but at that time I was not. Junior Cassidy was the one
and I went home and I think I got my bat, but anyway I went back and met him before he
2
�got home and chased him around the neighborhood for knocking me off my bike—he
made me mad, but anyway I didn’t catch him, but I was after him, around the house,
across the street and he was yelling for his mama the whole way and she came and got
him in the house and I was glad of that. Many years later as adults we enjoyed talking
about it. 5:32 That was one of the early ones and yeah, I got to play most of the games
and most of the times peacefully and that was one event that I can recall that was not very
peaceful. I guess one of the maddest I had got—my father was home at the time because
we were going home for supper and he wanted to know, “Delores what are you doing”,
and I went out of the house and daddy followed me, so they had to come and get me, but
his mama got him in the house in time. 6:05
Interviewer: “Now in high school, did you get a chance to play any organized sports
in high school?”
There were no sports for girls in Alabama, at least in my part of Alabama at that
particular time. Mobile public schools had no sports for girls.
Interviewer: “So what was your way of playing sports? Was it still like with the
children, did you still have these pick-up game type of things?”
On the playground, on the playground of the school and during the war they did start
some organized, but there were none for me. I had no opportunity and I actually came
into the league without any team experience. 6:40
Interviewer: “So right around, I believe and correct me if I’m wrong, right around
fifteen something happened to kind of change your life, was it fifteen?”
Fourteen, make it back even—how about thirteen?
Interviewer: “All right, let’s go there.”
In 1946 the all American league came to Pascagoula, Mississippi for their spring training.
Mr. Max Carey was the president of the league at the time and the fellas from the
shipyard use to let me play with them when they would come to practice on the junior
high diamond and if someone was missing they would let me fill in that spot and on
occasion they would even let me play a position if the opportunity presented itself and
they needed somebody. They were the ones that actually got me started in—when this
league was down in Pascagoula it was in the Mobile Press Register that they were going
to have tryouts etc. 7:42 So some of the guys went to my parents and wanted to take me
to the tryouts, but my mother said, “no, if you think she should go, I’ll take her”, so one
April afternoon in 1946 we borrowed my grandmother’s car because daddy had to go to
work in our car and she took me out of school and we drove to Pascagoula, Mississippi
where I actually tried out. After I had done all the things Mr. Carey asked me to do, the
hit, throw, run business, he asked me how old I was. It wasn’t until I had done all those
things he asked me how old I was, so I told him, “I’m thirteen and I’ll soon be fourteen”,
but he said, “we don’t take the girls that young”, and he went over to talk to my mother
and he said, “Mrs. Brumfield, we don’t take the girls this young”, and my mother said, “I
don’t want you to take her, I don’t even know what you thought”, so that was my tryout
period. 8:36
3
�Interviewer: “I want to stop you here for a moment though. Did you grow up fairly
quickly? You must have been a taller girl than most of the girls—I mean thirteen
years old looks like a thirteen year old, how would they?”
I was very slender at that time and not very large at all. I guess I’m down to 5’6” now,
being elderly, but at that time I was probably 5’6” or 5’7”.
Interviewer: “That’s fairly tall for a thirteen year old isn’t it? I mean—were you
taller than your other sisters?”
I guess I was taller, I have a picture at home, a picture with my father and one of the fish
he caught out of Mobile Bay and my brother who is sixteen months younger than I am,
but I’m a head taller than he is, so I guess maybe I was a little tall for my age. 9:21
Interviewer: “That makes more sense, yeah. When you played with the men before
they came to your mom and said that you should go and tryout for this, were talking
about men who were already in their teens and twenties playing baseball.
Remember this is WWII, these guys have been in the shipyards and they came for all
over and one of my favorite guys was a guy from Mississippi who played. He was a tall
slender guy who wore brogans, I don’t know if you remember the old high top work
boots or work shoes that they played in, we’re talking about school yard teams, we’re not
talking about organized teams as such, just teams getting together to play. 10:14
Interviewer: “They must have known you were playing pretty well to be able to
play with them?”
I was at the ball field every day and when they came over to practice I was there, so they
would let me play catch with them and all and that type of thing. There was a place we
use to go to, Alabama Village, which was in Mobile at that particular time, and Mobile
was one of major industrial areas during WWII. There were a lot of housing areas that
grew up at that time and Alabama Village being one of them and where this ball diamond
was with the junior high school was called Pritchard Homes, which was another housing
project during the war, so they played one against the other, but never uniforms or
organized like that. 10:58
Interviewer: “But still, somebody is throwing a pretty hard ball at you and you’re
having to hit a ball.”
Oh yeah
Interviewer: “At thirteen now your mother reveals that you’re glad that you’re not
going to be taken, so what happens? What happened, you went back home?”
I went back home.
Interviewer: “How did you feel?” 11:18
At that particular time I didn’t know, I didn’t know at the time if I thought I was going to
go anywhere anyway because I was just trying out. One of the interesting things—there
4
�was a fella by the name of Bill Mitten, as my mind reminds me, who was a local sports
broadcaster and also worked at a sporting goods store and I guess I feel like I was meant
to be a baseball player because Mr. Carey lost my name and they were coming to Mobile
and were asking about this girl that tried out and they didn’t know and I had gone into the
sporting goods store to buy a pair of shoes and talking to him about it and he said, “you
must be the one”, and that’s how they got my name back to Mr. Carey. 12:03 That year
in June, I tried out in April, they finally found me in May there, and in June when school
was out, school years were quite different than they are today, but he wrote my parents
and wanted me to go to Chicago and put on one of the teams because I had never had the
opportunity to be on a girls team and the parents said, “no, you shouldn’t go that’s too
far, too much”, so the next year in November I received a letter from Mr. Carey that said
they were going to Havana, Cuba for spring training and that they would like Delores to
be one of the girls we ask. I don’t know how many he said, I forget. At one time I had a
letter, a copy on that and I think it’s in Cooperstown. They said how many girls they
were going to take, new girls and that’s kind of the way that all happened. 12:59
Interviewer: “Now had you ever heard of Cuba before?”
Oh, I think I heard of Cuba. There was another girl from Mobile, her name was Margy
Holgerson and she also tried out in 1946 and was selected and she pitched for the
Rockford Peaches. Over that winter, Mr. Carey sent her out to meet me and to meet my
parents and then it was time for spring training to be in April and I’m in school. Now,
I’ve got to quit school in order to go to Havana, Cuba, so Margy was my chaperone, we
went by plane to Havana, first we went to Miami where we met up with all the girls from
everywhere else and we flew over to Havana for spring training. 13:45
Interviewer: “Now I want to stop you here. Had you traveled outside of your
immediate area at any distance before that?”
Only to my grandparents in Mississippi
Interviewer: “It was still in the south.”
It was still in the south. Both my parents were from Mississippi, but my mother and dad
met in Mobile and married in Mobile, so all of us were born and raised in that area.
Interviewer: “So now you arrive in Miami and you’re meeting girls from all over
the country?”
Yes, and Canada
Interviewer: “And Canada, what was that experience like?”
Very interesting, I have always been interested in people, I don’t know if it was that
experience led me to my interest in names, I’ve always been interested in that. It was just
a very exciting time, I’d ridden a train, I was in a different area, I didn’t know anybody
but Margy and then we were flown over to Havana and to the Biltmore Hotel. 14:49 I
can remember very well one of the older girls, there were several of us in a room and
adjoining rooms and this type of thing and my problem was that I said, “yes ma’am and
5
�no sir”, which was the way that I was brought up to do and this one gal from Detroit said,
“don’t ma’am me”, and that was a strange experience, but most of the girls were friendly
enough. I was put with the Fort Wayne Daisies for my spring training that year, but at
the end—I don’t want to get too far beyond, but all the tryout business. At the end of
spring training I was selected to be put on a team and I was put with the “South Bend
Blue Sox “. 15:37
Interviewer: “I want to address two questions. One, you were much younger than
most of the girls, is that correct?”
That is correct, I only know of one other girl that was younger than I that came into the
league later on and she was a month younger than I, but a lot of the girls came into the
league at fifteen.
Interviewer: “Now did you notice anything that you were treated any differently
because you were younger than them?”
The chaperone took care of that. The most important part of the experience was taken
over by the chaperone. The chaperone determined where you lived, whom you roomed
with and this type of thing she was very selective. 16:28
Interviewer: “So she made sure that there wasn’t going to be any kind of razzing or
they were going to tease you because you were younger?”
I didn’t have any of that, we were there for spring training and we were there for
business. There were places I didn’t go and things I didn’t do that the older girls did, but
that was all right with me.
Interviewer: “How did you deal with the fact that they all talked so funny?”
Well, that was funny, that was funny, I couldn’t understand some of them and they
couldn’t understand me, but it was just an interesting experience. The spring training in
Havana in 1947 was a highlight for me as I look back. So many fond memories come out
of that particular time. 17:13
Interviewer: “Well, I guess what I would like to get at is—I know I have been
through experiences in my life where when they’re going on you’re just doing them
and you’re not realizing that it’s something special or it’s something unusual. Did
you have any sense of—I mean Cuba, I’m playing baseball?”
I just had a uniform and I could go on the field and I could play and do what I loved to do
and it didn’t make that much at that particular time. There are some pictures in Life
magazine coming down the steps in Havana, Cuba, just kind of a wave of us coming
down that I kind of enjoy thinking about that and the people that I met that was so
important to me. I met people from all over everywhere. Margy had gotten me there, but
Margy was with the Rockford Peaches and I didn’t see her much anymore and now I got
to deal with all these new people. 18:11
6
�Interviewer: “How was it playing with all the girls?”
That was fine; in spring training you’re doing everything, the calisthenic approach to
things. At that particular time they didn’t think girls should be doing weights or be in
weight rooms, that all came much later. That gets me into a whole new area of how the
football coaches didn’t want the very idea of you in their training rooms, but baseball,
calisthenics, exercises, running sprints, your infield training and that type of thing.
Interviewer: “For that particular team in Cuba, what position did you play?”
About everything, mostly infield, but I don’t remember being put in any one position,
general skill, running, hitting and throwing.
Interviewer: “Now you say Life magazine was there taking pictures?”
There was a picture, but I wasn’t aware of it, but there is a Life magazine picture of the
girls coming down by teams. 19:24
Interviewer: “So, where did you stay in Cuba?”
At the Sevillia Biltmore Hotel.
Interviewer: “This was a nice place?”
Oh yeah
Interviewer: “Had you stayed in a hotel before?”
No, the interesting thing is I guess, I remember that particular time, there were people
riding around in Jeeps with guns, which was very different and this was before the
overthrow of the government and we were not allowed to go out by ourselves, we went in
groups. One of the interesting things is as I look back is, there were always fellas
standing across the street from the hotel and there were balconies out from the room and I
had to learn about things like that, but Havana itself was a beautiful place. One of the
interesting things to me was there were only two stop lights in the whole city and the
congestion of traffic, the sidewalks were about half the size of sidewalks as we think of
them and the buildings were built right up to the corners and as I understood it, the first
one to blow his horn had the right away—interesting traffic. 20:40 It was very difficult
to walk around some parts of the city, but then they had great plazas that I did like to go
down. We got to go into the capitol building itself and do some touring. I had a chance
in the next year to go back to Havana for some games.
Interviewer: “Tell us about the games the first season, the first time, what was it
like, who were you playing against and what were the, for example, when did you
get up in the morning, what was your routine like?” 21:11
Well, as you can imagine, you’re traveling most of the time, the traveling part, packing a
bag, taking care of laundry and doing those types of things, getting on the bus, being on
time, we toured going back, when we came back to the states we were doing tours all the
way back. I remember playing in Savanna, Charleston, and Roanoke-- places like that.
7
�One of my memories at that particular time, and I must share that one with you, we were
in Charleston and my mother and grandmother rode a Greyhound bus from Mobile to
Charleston in order to see me because I had been away from home now for several weeks
and I had been selected to be on the team and they rode the bus and came in and we had
been on the bus all night riding from one city to the other when my mother comes in early
that morning knocking on the door and I’m just getting in bed and she’s knocking on the
door. 22:13 She comes in and I say something to her and she is upset at the way I’m
talking and she said, “you’re not going to play this game if you’re going to talk like those
Yankees”, and that was going to be a no, no, but anyway it worked out all right. I think
about it, what they must have endured on the bus ride. If you can imagine going on a bus
ride all the way from Mobile to Charleston just to check and see if I was OK. 22:45
Interviewer: “Did they watch the game?”
They saw us play I guess, but I don’t have memories, specific memories of that. We did
play different cities as we worked our way back and then we flew from Roanoke,
Virginia to South Bend.
Interviewer: “Did you write letters home?”
Oh yeah and some of those are on file in Cooperstown.
Interviewer: “So really the way you communicated, they knew you really were ok.
They had to have wondered what’s going on with my—“
They wanted to find out and they did.
Interviewer: “So your first season that you played, and you played in Cuba, and
you also traveled right? What happened in the off season, where did you go?”
Back to school, I had dropped out of school, so I had to go back and make up some time.
It cost me another semester in high school, but at that time we only had eleven years of
public education anyway in Alabama, so it just cost me eleven and a half years to finish.
I had missed one course that you can’t take the next course until you had the previous
course. 23:56 I think one of my favorite stories about that particular time is in 1948, the
second year I played, and I wanted to go to spring training and I’m in high school,
Murphy High School in Mobile, and I had to get my teacher’s permission to take two
weeks out of school to go to spring training. Spring training that year was in south
Florida, Opa-locka, Florida, I think that’s right, and all my teachers had to sign
permission for me to go, well didn’t all and the worst one was my Spanish teacher and
she always made you feel very bad when she would get you before the class. This is a
young lady that wants to go and she made it be known that if I didn’t pass that class it
wasn’t her fault if I was going to go to Havana, Cuba and be gone for all that time. 25:00
Well, I did go and I did go back to Cuba, spring training was in south Florida, but we
went back over to Havana, but when I came back she—I was gone two weeks and three
days, so that’s when she said, “this young lady’s been gone two weeks and three days”. I
got back on a Wednesday, I went to school on Thursday and we had an accumulative test
on Friday for what I had missed and she didn’t realize that when I was in south Florida
some of the team mates were Cubans and were helping me with my Spanish and I was
8
�getting to go to Havana with Spanish, so she was really pointing me out that I was
doomed for failure, but I made the second highest grade in class. 25:53 After that, the
next year when I came to school, I was always late because of the season, she met me in
the hallway and took me to the principal’s office to be sure I was taking second year
Spanish. She was a pretty tough teacher and she made a point that I had done all these
things and missed school and taken out of class.
Interviewer: “But you were smart though by getting somebody who actually speaks
Spanish to work with you like that because you were actually getting a better
education with traveling and with them in Havana, Cuba because you’re hearing all
that as well. The kids in school didn’t have that; they just had whatever they had in
class. That’s pretty smart.”
That’s right, Mickey Perez was one of the Cuban girls that really helped me and we
would write letters back and forth to each other and we were good friends, and we never
played on the same team, but she was very helpful to me. Anyway, this was one of the
toughest teachers at Murphy High School.
Interviewer: I’m going to ask you an indelicate question now, how is your Spanish
today?”
Boco
Interviewer: “Ok, fair enough, fair enough.” 27:06
Although I think about it often and if I have the opportunity, I think, with the languages
being done today, I would like to go back and try to get with it again. I didn’t have much
conversational at that time it was reading and writing and very little, boco.
Interviewer: “Ok, I know this is kind of a tough question because it goes so far back
and we’re only two years into your career here, but did you at any time in those first
couple of seasons think, “this could be my job? This could be my career?”
Not long term, one year at a time, because I’m playing ball in the summer, I’m going to
school in the winter, I was always late getting back to school, but I was a pretty good
student, so I made it up all right until I got to be a senior and I had to have that special
class that took me into another semester, but like I say, we only had eleven years of
school anyway at that time. 28:08
Interviewer: “Now you were real young, so maybe this isn’t a fair question. Did
you have any idea what you wanted to do?”
At that time no because I really was so young and so early in my school career and I
hadn’t even had physical education until I went to the high school. I think the physical
education teachers at the Murphy High School were very influential in that also, the
experience I had. A lot of the girls who played in the league and friends that I had were
going to college and many of them also, were teachers. At that particular time, that was
9
�one of the opportunities that women had. The opportunities were very limited in what
girls do and if you could get the education, you could teach. 28:57 So the emphasis on
education was there to go on and teach and I mean my gym teachers were good for me.
Interviewer: “So the second time that you toured with the group to Havana and to
other places, what was the next step?”
Remember, I only went there for two weeks spring training and then I had to go back to
high school. Then during that interim period I find out that I’m no longer with the South
Bend Blue Sox, I’m now with the Kenosha Comets, so when I catch the train now to
Chicago and be on the new team, I have to get to Kenosha. I traveled by myself, by train,
to get first to Chicago and then into Kenosha and then I have a new chaperone, but Mrs.
Moore in South Bend, I have to give her credit, a great deal of credit, where she placed
me, with whom she placed me and the location that she placed me. 30:04 The
chaperones were very important, I hope that we’re going to give them good credit. For
the younger girls that came into the league, they always arranged for your housing and
who your roommates were. When you’re on the road they also controlled who you were
rooming with and that type of thing.
Interviewer: “So what were there—you mentioned just now in terms of what they
did for the rooms and making arrangements and all that sort of organization, but
what were their jobs? What were their duties?”
The chaperone was in charge of everything. They were the trainer, they were the
business person, you had to have the uniforms, you had to get the first aid, if you had to
see a doctor they went with you, they made the appointments, they arranged where you
were going to live, who you were going to live with. The first assigned place I had was
within walking distance of the ball field and with another girl from the south and I
thought that was important too, and into a home where there were no children. 31:09
The husband worked at Sears, he was an usher at the ballpark at night and then his wife
was a homemaker. One of my favorite stories is my fifteenth birthday; I’m turning
fifteen and Mr. Warner had to do the chore of what you did, he gave me the fifteen licks.
In those days you got a lick for every year, so fifteen and one to grow on, she baked me a
cake and I was able to go with teammates, some of them and I’m the rookie, but I got to
go to the radio show for the Knothole Gang, for younger girls that play in South Bend
and the sponsor gave me a beautiful sweater and they did birthday things over the radio
and that night at the ball park—I always was assigned to sit by the manager, Chet Grant
and that night they pushed me out of the dugout and in front of everybody during the
seventh inning and they played a song on the big microphone, “I’m a Big Girl Now”.
32:18 “I wanna be treated like a big girl now”, and that was one of my special memories
of that year was my fifteenth birthday. They gave me the cake and ice cream and all that
business at home with Mr. And Mrs. Warner and then I got to call home and that was
special.
Interviewer: “That sounds like a magic moment.”
10
�It was a magic moment, it really was, here I had been away from home now and that was
May 26 and I had been away since April, it had been about a month or more I guess, but
it was a special time. 32:56
Interviewer: “So what was the next step in your career, so to speak, with baseball?
You’re now?”
With the Kenosha Comets and driving—I didn’t get to go to spring training again until I
graduated from high school and that was in West Baden Springs, Indiana in 1950.
Interviewer: “So you miss spring training because of school, but where did you then
end up with the group? If they were spring training and went somewhere where did
you end up?”
They had started the league, they had started play and I think this is where I attribute
some of the team pictures where we could identify the people on the teams, so of them
we couldn’t identify because those were girls that were picked up in spring training and
given a chance to come with the team, but in the team, games being played up to the
opening of the league, then some of them were let go. Then you had usually about fifteen
or sixteen players were all we had. 33:57 That sometimes leads to misidentification of
those girls who didn’t make the team, but they were in spring training pictures.
Interviewer: “I gotcha, wow, I didn’t know that.”
Once, and others I’m sure, I was one of the ones that went to school and got to finish
school and then go play.
Interviewer. “Did you have any idea by this time about the scope of the league?”
I guess as I look back on it, when I went home there was nobody there and most of them
back there didn’t know anything about it. As I think back, I missed all the teenage things
growing up, going to the beaches and going to the ballpark to cheer for the boys church
team and that type of thing, but we didn’t talk about it and they didn’t know anything
about it. That league was totally dismissed away from them. 34:57 They had no idea
about it.
Interviewer: “But they followed other sports like major league baseball and things
like that? People talk about games don’t they?”
Oh yes, the boys were very active; they had all their teams you know. The American
Legion came in and organized all the boys and they had a team and they played and we
had church league softball for the boys and all like that, but it was in the summertime and
I didn’t get to play any of that. The American Legion came and said girls can’t play.
Interviewer: “that amazes me because here you have been playing professional
baseball and you would think they would want you on the team.”
No
11
�Interviewer: “No way, so that’s 1950 we’re talking about now?”
When I graduated from high school it was mid year, remember I had a half year I had to
put in.
Interviewer: “So you graduated from high school and had you any idea by that
time, had your parents, for example asked you what you are going to do now?
When you get out of high school are you going to be a teacher, are you going to do
this? Did any of that kind of conversation go on?”
Oh yes, you had to with the family, particularly my father, because he couldn’t see
educating me, I’m a girl. I have a brother sixteen months younger than I am and if
anybody goes to school it will be my brother. During that time I’m saving my money and
with my grandmother’s help, and my mother, I got to go to college. My brother went
right out of high school into the Air Force and stayed in the Air Force, that type of thing,
so he never wanted to go to college and my dad in later years apologized to me about that
as he was moving me –I’m getting all this in later times and I hope you can put it all
together later, but the year I got my doctorate and he was helping me move back home,
after that he apologized to me for that particular time. 37:03 Because of the league, and
the point I want to make is because of the opportunity I had to play in this baseball
league, that I was able to make money, I was able then to get my education and that was
so important to a lot of the girls that played in the league. If it had not been for that
opportunity there would not have been a college education for many of us, it certainly
was for me.
Interviewer: “Let’s go, I’m glad we went there, but I want to go back to 1950. Did
you play for another team after that or are you still with the original team in 1950
after you graduated from high school?
Well let’s see, I was in Kenosha until 1951. I played four years in Kenosha. I would go
to school and I would go back to Kenosha, I would go to school and back to Kenosha and
then in 1951 I started in college, 1950 really. 38:08 I ended up graduation in January of
1950 and I started college in September of 1950.
Interviewer: “I’m trying to get in my mind the chronology here. Did you play
professional baseball while you were in college?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Ok, that’s where I want to go next.”
I’m in school, I’m at the ballgame, I’m in school, I’m at the team and that’s what I did.
Interviewer: “So where—the Kenosha team was a traveling team though, right?”
No
Interviewer: “Ok, now I’m getting back on track here.”
No, the Kenosha team wasn’t established, the last year that it folded, 1951, it did travel a
lot.
12
�Interviewer: “Let’s go back to 1950, you’re going to college, but now you got a team
that’s staying at home.”
See, I’m in Alabama when I’m in school.
Interviewer: “Ok, college in Alabama?”
I’m in college in Alabama and then I go to Kenosha and then when I went to Fort Wayne
the same thing was true. My first meeting with Jimmy Foxx I very well remember
because I didn’t go until school was out and again school was not out until about the first
of June and then I reported just as soon—usually it’s one day apart, I’m out of school one
day and I’m on the train the next I’m at the ballpark, that type of thing. 39:25 The first
day in 1952 when I went to fort Wayne, I met with Jimmy in the dugout and it was the
first time I’d ever seen him and I didn’t know that much about him and the night before
they had let one of their rookie players go to another team and it opened up a position at
second base. I had never played second base, but Jimmy said, “you’re going to be our
second baseman”, and I said, ”I’ve never played second base”, and he said, “You’re our
second baseman”, and that whole year was one of my worst years that I remember, but it
was a good year in many other ways. 40:09
Interviewer: “What made it the worst year and what made it a good year in other
ways?”
My baseball results were not good, batting was down, I had led the Kenosha team in
batting and I was not doing that now, I’m in a strange position, but the strange position
was that I was between the best short stop in the league and also the best hitter in the
league. In 1952 Dottie Schroeder was the shortstop for the Fort Wayne Daisies. The
only girl to play all twelve years in the league and Betty Foss, who was on first base, a
great big girl from southern Illinois that was the league hitter in the league. 40:51 One
of my favorite stories, Betty gets sick and Jimmy says, “Dolly you have been wanting to
play first base”, and I told him I liked first base, “you have been wanting to play first
base, so this is your time”, so that night we had a double header and I got to play first
base and I had the best hitting, I think I went six for eight or something like that, and then
the next year they put Betty in right field, she’s still a great hitter, and he put me on first
base and now I outhit her and after that I was on first base. I earned my spot to be on first
base. 41:34 That’s one of my favorite times. I had a bad time—when you’re not
comfortable in the field it affects your batting.
Interviewer: “I was going to say, you either earned the place or Jimmy finally
figured out where to put you.”
Well, Bill Allington the next year, but that experience Jimmy probably did have some
influence in that particular event alone, but that’s one of my favorite times.
Interviewer: “What were some of the highlights that you can think of during that
period of particular games, not only for you, but maybe seeing another player make
13
�a play that was really amazing. There were a lot of them, but any one that you can
think of?”
It’s hard to come up with just one thing. There weren’t that many home runs hit because
we were playing in big fields. I have a ball at home that is signed by Jimmy Foxx and
it’s my prize possession right now and I’m trying to decide where I am going to want it to
go. 42:40 August the 26th , I think it was, of 1952 when I hit that home run and I’ve got
the ball and the teammates signed it, but Jimmy also signed it and he didn’t sign all that
much. That’s a—but you’re playing with great girls, girls that were really great players.
I played with Audrey Wagner in Kenosha and the influence again, she went on to be a
medical doctor and I think the achievement of some of the girls following the time we
were in the league was very influential to me, interesting to me, what all they went on to
do. 43:20
Interviewer: “You know what interests me is that you were so young and that’s a
very impressionable age and impressionable can go with who you are hanging out
with. It can be very good or it can be very bad and in this case you had all of these
incredible examples of girls that were doing really remarkable things and you kind
of had to keep up to make sure you were being as good as they are, that’s got to be
good training.”
Well, so many things go back to, not only time on the field, but also time off the field.
One of my memories of Mrs. Moore, who was the chaperone in South Bend, we were in
Kenosha in the hotel, I think the Dayton Hotel, you’re in and away from home and with
not much to do and they played cards, so they were playing cards and playing poker and I
was just watching, I wasn’t playing and Mrs. Moore came in and got most upset with all
them and got me out of that room, I wasn’t supposed to be doing that, so that was one of
my early remembrances. 44:22 Mrs. Moore took a very close account of me that whole
year. In fact, during practice when the first team would practice, Chet would let them go
home and keep the rookies and the girls that played in the Knothole Gang, the younger
girls in town, so some of my best friends were the younger girls in town. I wasn’t able to
go with my teammates to the places they went for their entertainment and everything
afterwards, but one family particularly, the McCrackens, that took me in. Their youngest
daughter, my age, we became best friends and that’s another thing that will carry over to
other years when I’m in Kenosha or anywhere else, it was not uncommon for that family
to show up to support me. 45:11
Interviewer: “Your personal fan club huh?”
Personal fan club, that’s right. It was very important to me because I could walk from
where I lived to their house. I never had a car when I was in the league. I always
depended on somebody else for transportation.
Interviewer: “Let’s talk about the fans in the early days and then maybe later on in
your career, how were the fans?”
14
�Great and you had selective ones, but overall the fans were very supportive, they really
were. You made friends and like I said, I made some friends younger out in towns where
I played because I was so much younger than the other girls.
Interviewer: “In the early days in particular, the most you had ever had in terms of
an audience when you were playing with these baseball teams when you were a kid,
very different than going into a ball park where there’s paying customers out there.
Can you recall in the early days what it must of have been like to walk out, and this
is not the way it was when we played at home?” 46:18
I don’t really remember being awestruck in that way, it was just because by then I had
been with the team. You go by bus, you get on the bus, you get off the bus and you’re
playing seven days a week, double headers on Sundays and holidays, you didn’t have
much off time. The off time you had was to go get ready, pack and go again. I don’t
remember that, but certain fields you liked better than others. The Grand Rapids field
always had this big factory in right field and that was a problem. The Rockford Peaches
played in a—had a football stadium for part of their stands. Different fields I remember,
Playland Park in South Bend had an auto racetrack around it, so those were kind of
strange situations there. To be awestruck by—because you come out early before the
fans get there and two hours before the game you’re on the field. 47:18 Two hours, and
you had batting practice, you had infield practice, you had all of that before the game.
Interviewer: “How about the press? Were there newspaper reporters around at
any time? TV cameras or things like that?”
We didn’t have TV cameras in those days, but certainly the radio people, there was an
announcer at every park. Then there were reporters, yes they always had coverage of the
local games in the papers.
Interviewer: “Did you ever get interviewed?”
I don’t remember so much being interviewed. Certain games were important, had a good
night, maybe hit in a winning run or something like that. They always had those.
Interviewer: “Did you have a scrapbook?”
My mother did more so than myself. A lot of the things that I had in that scrapbook are
in Cooperstown. 48:18 They have a file on me in Cooperstown that has a good bit, my
personal letters to my family and that type of thing.
Interviewer: “So mama was proud huh?”
She was proud.
Interviewer: “What was the last season you played? That was fifty?”
1953
Interviewer: “So in 1952 you are still playing, you graduated from high school,
1950-1951 you’re going to college and how many years of college?”
Four
15
�Interviewer: “Four, all right, so all through the first three years of college you’re
playing baseball?”
Yes
Interviewer: “By that time did it almost become a routine because you’re—every
year you’re doing this, you’re going off to play and then you’re going to college?”
Yes, and then it’s time to graduate from college. Now the year before, even though it
was my best year in the league, I had some health problems. Primarily anemia. [I] didn’t
eat right as a kid, all those years that I didn’t eat right, I had severe anemia and the
chaperone had taken me to get me booster shots and all the things they do for anemia.
49:33 the first night they did that I was a leadoff hitter and I don’t remember the first
inning of that game and going down the steps I passed out, so after that anytime I had to
take those shots for anemia, I’d get a day off, but that type of thing. Memories of that
type of event, the chaperone would take you to the doctor for an appointment and that
kind of thing. 50:03
Interviewer: “You say it was one of your best years.”
My best year of hitting, of playing first base, I’m more comfortable and Bill Allington
put me as lead off hitter that was another one, so it just kind of worked out that way.
Because of that year, though I’d had a good year—Bill Allington, I was in the game and I
was on third base and I told him I wasn’t going to come back and he said, “are you sure”,
and this type of thing because he wanted me to come back, but anyway, I didn’t go back.
It was time for me to go on with my career at that time, I was looking toward teaching
and getting started in teaching, that’s another whole story as to why. 51:01 I had a job
so early after—I had an uncle who was superintendent of schools in Mississippi where
they did play girls sports and he had another superintendent that was needing a basketball
coach at that particular time and a teacher , so he helped me get an interview during
spring break that year, so I made my interview and I had a job before school was even
out, but then I didn’t go back to baseball. As it turned out 1954 was the last year of the
league, so it worked out for me. 51:33
Interviewer: “I want to get into that. Was there any indication in the last year that
you played that things were different, that the league may not continue on?”
Yes, the number of teams that were in the league had changed, they had the traveling
teams and I don’t remember too much about the history of that part because I’m playing
every day, I’m moving every few days, so I really wasn’t aware of it as much as it
actually was happening. It just wasn’t a part of my everyday and I wasn’t one to be that
concerned about it, I was just playing every day. 52:12
Interviewer: “I had asked you earlier, when you were in high school did you know
what you wanted to do, and of course you said that at that age you didn’t. When
was it that you realized that you knew what you wanted to do that wasn’t baseball,
but your career?”
16
�The teaching, the fact that in that the physical education teachers did the things that I
liked to do and some of the girls that played in the league that were teachers, were going
to college, for one thing they motivated me to go to college and to want to teach.
Interviewer: “That was not coming from your family? Your family was not
saying--your father, as you said and there’s no blame attached, I’m not trying to—
but basically he just wasn’t thinking you were going to go there, but you saw the
example of these other women.”
That’s what motivated me. Again, it wasn’t that my father didn’t want the best for me
and I tried to bring that out. It wasn’t that he didn’t want me to do well or have the best
of things, but I had a brother and he was supposed to get all of that. 53:13
Interviewer: “So there was that period then in transition, how difficult was it, and I
know this isn’t even a fair question, but how difficult was it and was there an actual
time that you decided that, I’m not going to play that next year, I am going to go
and be a teacher?
I don’t know if there was any specific time, but probably my senior year in college.
Again I went to a women’s college at that time, that was the way things were done, a
women’s college, majored in physical education, no sports other than intramural sports,
there was nothing back home in the way of sports and I had to go to Mississippi to even
teach sports. I taught in the Mississippi schools because they had girl’s sports,
particularly in the country schools and that’s where I started, but there weren’t any
opportunities for girl’s sports. 54:15 I think that’s one of the things that’s been
passionate for me, for the girls to have the opportunity to play sports. I didn’t think it
should only be for the boys and I still don’t think it should only be for the boys. I think
there should be opportunities there and that’s a whole other story, so get me out of that
one.
Interviewer: “Did you have any experience in basketball before that?”
No opportunity in basketball.
Interviewer: “But you’re going to be teaching basketball?”
In college I learned because I had classes. I had basketball classes and in our physical
education we had activity classes and theory classes in all of sports, so I ended up
coaching basketball, track, tennis, things of this nature because that was the academic and
background training that I had, but no practical coaching things except intramurally
55:09.
Interviewer: “Now, during your college days did your fellow students know that
you played professional baseball?”
It kind of came that way, but I was late getting to college the first year, remember I’m
playing baseball every year, I’m always late getting to school. By the time I got to school
17
�the person I was supposed to room with wasn’t even there and I’m getting another room
mate. That type of thing was always a problem—I was late getting to school, all the
introductions and orientations had already been done and I come on late, so it was always
a little bit of a problem and other than some of my closer friends, people who were in the
academic area, where most of my classes were, they knew, but that was a—and they
didn’t understand, but they knew I was coming in late. 56:08
Interviewer: “Didn’t happen to have a Spanish teacher in college who gave you
trouble too, did you?”
No, no more Spanish.
Interviewer: “ I want to go back to the conversation that you had, if you can recall
it, with the manager, it wasn’t Jimmy, it was the new—who was the last manager
you had?”
Bill Allington
Interviewer: “What was that conversation like where he tried to convince you to
stay?”
The biggest part was that one night, that one night on third base in the middle of the
game, that was kind of strange. It must have been a timeout or something and he was
talking to me and I guess he had gotten word that I wasn’t planning on returning the next
year and he wanted to talk to me about it. Now Bill was the one that after the league
folded, that put together a team of players and they travel and played against the men.
57:07 I had been out of the league for a whole year teaching and he still was contacting
me to come and join that group, but I didn’t, I said, “I’m teaching, I’m happy, I am going
to stay where I am”. I had enough of that traveling around. You know, seven years of
suitcases and traveling and hotels and that type of thing.
Interviewer: “What was his main argument about why you should stay?”
He wanted me on his team in some position maybe and at that time I was having a good
year and he certainly had been aware of it from the years he had been in the league as a
manager. In my opinion, he was the best baseball man that I played under. Chet Grant
was, I think, very good for me because he was a teacher. I think my memory of the
things I’ve learned that he was a quarterback for Knute Rockne at Notre Dame, so his
background is in the part of sports. Johnny Gottselig was my other manager in Kenosha
and he was a Chicago hockey player, but he was a scout for Mr. Wrigley that’s how he
got into the baseball part of it 58:23 Jimmy was a nice guy and he got much of the
publicity that year, but Bill Allington, who had been a minor league player, was the best
baseball man—he taught you baseball.
Interviewer: “During the period of time that you played, through our conversation
here, you were always concentrating on the playing and of course you had school,
then playing, then school, was there any sense during that period that you were
18
�doing, and your fellow players were doing, anything remarkable beyond just
playing baseball? The fact that you were good at playing baseball?”
Just having fun, we were just having fun, I made a lot of friends, I had friends in the
towns where we played, got to do things that other people didn’t get to do, opportunities
that they didn’t have and when you go back home, nobody knows where you have been
or what you have been up to , they just know you’ve been away. 59:24 It was a strange
happening in that respect.
Interviewer: “When in your life did you realize that other people recognized that
period of time as being very special? You knew it was special because you played,
but now we’re talking about a totally different thing. In history, people are looking
back on the period and saying that this was so unique and had all this impact, when
did it dawn on you, or did it dawn on you?”
I don’t think it dawned on the people in my environment, where I lived. I’m in south
Alabama, Mississippi where I taught, now in Arkansas where I live—until the movie
came out, the movie “A League of Their Own”, until that came out and also the
recognition by the Baseball Hall of Fame in 1988 after we became an organization or
association, we tried to help with that and I think that was a first step there and that’s how
Penny Marshall got a hold of things too was showing up in 1988 when we were there
doing that recognition at Cooperstown. :39
Interviewer: “The movie portrayed, and I don’t want to get into the movie at this
moment, but Geena Davis’s reluctance to go to that, what was your reaction to being
informed that you’re being inducted? Did you get invited to go?”
I was there.
Interviewer: “Can you see where I’m going with this? I want to know, what was
your reaction to this happening and did you say, “Oh, I’m going to go”, or did you
think about it?”
Well, I guess the interesting part is that one of my colleagues that I was teaching with, I
invited her to go with me. Of course she didn’t know—she had played sports in high
school and she was a physical education teacher like myself, but I invited her to go to
Cooperstown with me and I think that was exciting. 1:29 I had been to the first reunion
in Chicago; even my husband went with me in 1982 when we went to that. It’s kind of
hard to put it all together in your head just exactly, but Betty Wallace, who is a colleague,
went with me to Cooperstown and was with me during that. I was just kind of the kid on
the block, the older gals were there, but I was one of them and that type of thing. 2:01
We traveled together and had to fly into Buffalo I guess it was and get a car to drive to
Cooperstown because it wasn’t an easy place to get to and got to be there with people I
hadn’t seen, it was an exciting time.
Interviewer: “What was your reaction to going in there and seeing all that stuff?
There were displays.”
19
�I remember being at the display area when—I think that is when it was really taking hold,
the display area in Cooperstown. You would sit around and hear everybody talking,
That’s what Penny Marshall was doing too with her tape recorder. When you get
together you talk about old times, what it was like, where you lived, what you did and
that’s when it really kind of—that was something kind of special, but until that was made
into a movie and somebody else knew about it. 2:58 Now, in the areas where the teams
were in Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin and Michigan where the teams played, a lot of the
fans were still there, but in my part of the world, they had never heard of it. You would
say something, I remember fellas I coach with—“no you didn’t do that, that didn’t
happen, you telling me one” and that type of thing. I found one fella I coach with that
finally said, “Ok, you’re an athlete”, because girls didn’t have that much of a background
at that particular time, so I got to go down and workout with the team. Everywhere I’ve
been, I’ve been initiating girl’s sports. That’s something that I thought was important, so
I’ve been able to be active in that. 3:51
Interviewer: “Why did you go to the first reunion?”
I just wanted to see everybody. That one in Chicago and my husband was willing to go
with me, that type of thing and he had never heard anything about it either.
Interviewer: “What was his reaction?”
He went with me to support me, but he didn’t really know anything about it.
Interviewer: “You didn’t talk about it?”
No, you don’t, you would go home and you wouldn’t talk about it because there would be
no one there to talk to about it. You didn’t want to go around broadcasting all the time
unless somebody asked you a question or something, you just didn’t talk about it. It was
another world. Even the boys I grew up with playing ball on the playground in later
years, they didn’t know where I’d been either and we had a fellowship of those people
called “The Pritchard Kids” for many years. Just last year we lost contact and I still hear
from some, but we use to have an annual reunion with those kids we grew up with, went
to church with, these were church people and that was another era. 5:00
Interviewer: “Two more for you, one is, how did that experience of playing
professional baseball affect you personally, in terms of the person you are today?
What was it about that time, was there any effect that happened during that time
that kind of determined or molded or shaped the person that you are today?
Certainly, The travel, the exposure to girls from so many different places. I have always
really appreciated that, I have always been interested in people and one of the things
about teaching, I’m interested in people and opportunities wherever I’ve been to provide
sports, particularly for girls, because that’s been my area, recreation. 5:56 The fact that
you can help make it better for somebody else, I think that’s a part of it too. I still am a
sports nut I guess you would say because wherever I’ve been, I’ve supported all sports
and just tried to make things better for the next group coming on and I’ve started
programs, a softball program where I have to start and they won’t let us use the little
20
�league field to play on and we have to go in front of a dormitory at the university where
there’s no—we made a field out of it. Even to go to the little league field and we have to
wait until the boys get through in July before they would even let us go on the field and
to put up with things like that. 6:48 Some of the girls that have now gone on to be
productive citizens and are doing good in our community, they came from those little
girls softball programs that we started and from that the women’s programs grew from
that. To see that makes you feel good, that the girls are having opportunities today to do
things that they never had a chance to do before. 7:09
Interviewer: “That leads me to my last one. This is kind of the big one, the big
question. In terms of history, American history, history of we as a people, where do
you think your little group fits in that whole big scheme of things?”
The changing lives of women. I think WWII was the really big one for my generation
and the times changed, women had to leave the home and the kitchen and the statement
in the movie that stands out, “now that the men are coming back you women get back in
the kitchen”. I’m sorry, you’ve opened the door of opportunity and were not in the
kitchen, we’re out in the world being productive and doing other things and having other
opportunities. 8:03 Opportunity is the key word; you have to have an opportunity.
What would my life have been without that opportunity that someone saw something in
me that they thought would do something in baseball and I go the opportunity to do that.
Did I have any other skills that would have gotten me the door that opened for me to have
an education, to travel and meet all these people, to have friends all over the country and
to travel to Cuba? It’s opportunity; I don’t care what it is that you do, if you don’t
have—if you have the greatest of skills, but you don’t have the opportunity to use it, it is
completely lost. We have to have the opportunity to do things and we’re still on the
threshold of that in women’s baseball because we’re trying to get it into the Olympics
now and I’ve been trying to support the girls who are trying to play baseball today and
we do have a number of them. 9:00 Some of them are right here in this program we’re
doing today. There is a Team USA Women’s Baseball and I’m very proud of that and
I’m hoping that one day we’re going to have the women to play that again because it’s
ok, if it’s ok in one sport and someone is just written me some things in e-mail saying,
“girl’s just want to play baseball too and softball is not the same game”.
Interviewer: “Thank you so much.”
You’re quite welcome.
Interviewer: “This is wonderful.”
21
�22
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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RHC-58_DWhite
Title
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White, Delores Brumfield (Interview transcript and video), 2009
Creator
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White, Delores
Description
An account of the resource
Delores White (nee Brumfield) was born was born in Pritchard, Alabama on May 26, 1932. Growing up, she got her start playing baseball with the school and neighborhood kids. Following tryouts in 1946 she was told by Mr. Carey that she was yet too young. Apparently, after her tryouts Mr. Carey had misplaced her name and sought her out until he found her one day in a store. In 1946, she made the trip to Havana, Cuba. That same year she was placed with the Fort Wayne Daisies during her spring training period. At the end of spring training, she was chosen to play for the South Bend Blue Sox in 1947. She played with the Kenosha Comets from 1948 to 1951. She then played the 1951 and 1952 seasons with the Fort Wayne Daisies. During her league career she played first, second, and third base. Her career highlight was on August 26, 1952 when she hit a home run and it was signed by her teammates and Jimmy Foxx. One other highlight she had during her league career was her spring training in Havana.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Women
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-09-27
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4fd79f3a42b80b163012ce9af72c0643.mp4
3ef4b44d77cb66a1b3a556ae5e1aa501
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d466a4826d54deafe6f3032ecc42eec8.pdf
d9f9aa41ac8efd6f78dba6ee36c1b405
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Joyce Hill Westerman
Length of Interview: (54:24)
Date of Interview: August 7, 2010 at the Reunion of the Professional Girls Baseball League
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Lindsey Thatcher, November 9, 2010
Interviewer: “The date is August 7, 2010. We are at Detroit Michigan at the reunion of the
All American Girls Professional Baseball League. We are talking today with Joyce Hill
Westerman and the interviewer is James Smither of Grand Valley State’s Veterans History
Project. Now Joyce, can you start with a little bit of background about yourself? Let’s
begin with where and when were you born?”
(00:51)
I was born in on December 29, 1925. I might add that I lived through the depression. I mean, to
me it wasn’t a big deal but to my parents it was a big deal. My father lost himself in the
depression so I was in 6th grade, no 1st grade in the city, I was 6 years old and I went one year to
school there and then we moved out of the county. My uncle had rented some land and there was
an old house on this land and half of it was falling down and we lived in 4 rooms and I had 4
sisters and or 3 sisters and 4 brothers and my mom and dad and we lived in that little house that
was not much. We did not have any running water, we did not have any electricity, and we had a
potbelly stove to heat the house. We had to carry the water in from the water tank and also to
take a shower we had to heat the water over the fire and stuff like that. Well I was a little bit of a
tom boy and I played a little ball in Kenosha in school (02:00) and I used to be embarrassed at
first to go up and hit because I hit better than most of the kids. And I started playing ball when I
was about 5___ pounds so I played next door, but when we moved in to the county it was a
whole different story. So I played mostly with all my brothers and sisters and stuff, and it was
really a good thing for my parents because for us kids we loved it. We were out in the county and
we could run, we had a big garden and I think that’s how we survived really, on the garden and
so forth. Then as I grew up we went to a one room school with one teacher, actually the teacher
taught my mother, she graduated from that school and I graduated from that school with the
same teacher, from 8th grade from that school. So that in itself was an experience. I had played a
lot of ball in school and stuff but then as I grew up and I graduated from my school when I was
17, and you couldn’t get a job until you were 18, now they didn’t have any (03:00) competitive
sports to speak of in high school and junior high school but I did manage to go into the city and
visit my aunt one night a week so I could play sports at the junior high school. Well then, after
high school of course I finally, by the time I was 18 I got a job at the American Motors, they
were making airplanes. Well we did have kind of a scrub team from the national holders (?). And
that was the extent of pretty much of my baseball experience except with playing with my
brothers and sisters in school and stuff like that. So anyway then in 1944 that was the first time
that I got to see the Comets who were one of the regular teams of the league. And it was really
�funny because they had a bunch of injuries on the team and they had called somebody. Who? I
don’t know. But anyway they picked two girls from Kenosha to try to fill in. (04:00) Well
luckily I was one of them and got to start with Hugh Rights a friend of mine who was a ball
player. Well I got a uniform and everything for that series and all I did was get up and pitch
some runs and I fouled the ball and I could…I thought oh my heavens it’s girl’s baseball. What a
dream this would be? You know, always wanting to play professional ball and you know being a
Cub fan it was the big thing you know, so anyway it was really funny because living on the farm
and so forth by that time we had moved on to my grandmother’s farm and lived upstairs by the
time I was in junior high school so we had all the conveniences then but my Dad still didn’t have
the money where I could run back and forth from Kenosha to play ball and stuff like that. So
anyway I tried out and like I said I got up a hit and fouled the ball and that was wonderful
because they were so (05:00) fast that I couldn’t see the ball anyway in my estimation. And I
tried out, they had try outs that fall in Kenosha and it was about 50 girls so I tried out there and I
made the try outs and then the following week they had try outs where they were seeing and
some of the girls went there and it was another I think another 50 girls there and I tried out there
and there were only 2 of us girls out of all those kids that made the cut to go spring training. Like
I said I was working at American Motors or National Motors at that time, I was making a dollar
an hour and so forth and you know after that I went to spring training, and then I found out that I
made the cut and I would be going to Grand Rapids. Well I signed a contract like $55 a week.
Well my dad was making $40 in the plant you know at that time and I thought “Oh wow, I’m
going to be making more than my dad,” and you know they weren’t sports people. (06:00) But
my mother, they didn’t say I couldn’t play or anything and it wasn’t you know something like
that but I think they knew how much I loved baseball you know, so anyway it was a little scary
for me in spring training because I had to take the train heck I had never been out of Kenosha
hardly you know, so I got on that train and got to Chicago. I made it through someway I don’t
remember how, but I got there. And like I said, I made the cut. My first year I went to Grand
Rapids and it was really cool, I had a lot to learn. Not having, I mean I had the ability but I didn’t
have the experience I had a lot to learn and of course when I went to Grand Rapids Mickey
Maguire was the captain at the time, and I was the catcher at that time and I didn’t get played too
often but I learned a lot from her. She was a competitive let me tell you, she was but that was a
really wonderful experience to be behind her. And I did, one time I was catching (07:00) and I
did catch my finger. The first knuckle was lying on the back of the second knuckle and doctor
came down and pulled it back into place you know and stuff like that. Anyway from then, I went
to went to South Bend the following year and then I went on and played for 8 total years so, it
was a wonderful experience. You meet so many wonderful gals you know that you get very
close.
(07:32)
Interviewer: “Ok, that’s a really good overview or starting point here. Now I’m going to
back us up a little bit.”
Ok.
Interviewer: “And have you fill in a few more pieces of this process. Why don’t you, the
other thing I’m not quite getting out of your stories, where did you go to high school?”
�Oh, I went to a Kenosha high school in Kenosha.
Interviewer: “So you were able to go into Kenosha at least at that point?”
Yeah, yeah. Actually we had to get up early in the morning and ride in when my dad went to
work (08:00). Way before any other school started, and we stayed about oh half a mile or so
from it and he would take us into high school as well. We would get up and in the morning go in
with my Dad in the morning and stay up at my aunt’s until it was time to go to school, and then
walk to school.
Interviewer: “Ok, and the school, did they have were there any kind of sports there, or gym
class or anything like that?”
The school wasn’t didn’t have anything.
Interviewer: “Nothing at all.”
No, like I said junior high school had gym once a week, I mean we had gym but nothing after
school.
Interviewer: “Ok. And the Comets were a pioneer team and they would’ve been in
Kenosha in 1943.”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Did you go watch them play?”
No. I didn’t watch them, and I didn’t even remember seeing them. We didn’t get the paper, you
know. And it was just all new to me I heard about them, but not a whole lot you know. And so
no, when they called for me to come into their try out I was surprised I was brave enough to do
it. I was pretty shy at that time.
(09:06)
Interviewer: “At that time, alright. And then, when you are doing the try outs, what did
they actually make you do?”
At the try out? Well we had to bat, and hit and then field you know you caught during the try
outs, and stuff like that. But we didn’t do a lot of exercises and stuff it was mostly batting and
catching and stuff like that you know. Mainly if you are a catcher they had you back there
catching but that was pretty much, we didn’t do many exercises or anything like that so 50 girls
you know so hit around with all of them.
Interviewer: “Alright, don’t catchers have a lot sort of to learn about how to call a game
and that kind of thing? Now you hadn’t played a lot of organized ball.”
�Right, and you know the reason that I did that was because I thought well I think there is one
position that they might need more than anybody else and it would be catching. And I thought
well I can do that. (10:00) I can throw a little pitch you know and I thought, well that’s
something I can do so that’s why I tried out for there, I thought that was my best chance. I was, I
was probably a little chunkier at that time and that was another thing, I wasn’t one of the real fast
girls that run and stuff like that and I thought, I think that’s my best chance. So that was why I
tried out and I did hard too, you know. And that’s why I said being out batting late it helped.
Interviewer: “Alright, and then, tell me a little bit more about how the spring training
worked. There actually still doing that at Wrigley Field there was the first couple seasons
they, what’s the process there? Now the people that come there, are they already signed
into the league? Or are they still eliminating people?
Well some of them were were, I mean they had been they had been there for 2 years. So a lot of
them were regulars, but then us rookies had to fill in for the regulars you know, and that was put
you know in a hard spot there (11:00) because they were so good and we were just so
inexperienced and trying so hard you know. But we did all kinds of exercises and stuff. Being to
the farm I worked on the farm and I did just about anything you could do on a farm. Milked the
cows you know, but I, you know I was in pretty good shape even though I was a little bit heavier.
And I, so it didn’t really bother me, the exercises and stuff. But still, at the end of the day you it
would almost like you could crawl back to the hotel you know, so and it was after the exercise it
was bad and the usual, much like the men’s you know.
Interviewer: “Ok, and then how do you find out how you made the cut and you are
assigned to a team? What happens?”
Well, there, well I can’t remember exactly but I know they read it off or we, I can’t remember if
we read something or, they just notified us and I don’t remember exactly how.
Interviewer: “Ok, so what was your response when you found out that you had sort of
made it?”
(12:01)
I was elated. I hadn’t quit my job or anything; I had to taken a leave of absence. So I went back
and I had to quit my job and stuff, before I started playing ball.
Interviewer: “Alright, now this is still fairly early in the history of the league. How much of
the rules and regulations and etiquette training and all of that kind of stuff, when they
teach you how to behave and so forth, how much of that was still in place when you
started?”
Well when I was there in 45, I did not go to charm school. Now the gal that went with me said
that she did. So I don’t know how I got out of that, but somehow I missed that. So they must
�have had it in 1945, but I think that was the last year because the following year it wasn’t in
effect. And we thought it was ridiculous to put on eye shadow and lipstick and put on our masks
and then go out and catch, you know? Play any position and you are perspiring (13:00) it’s bad
enough the way it is, all of that gear on you and stuff. But I knew the girls had to keep their hair
short and keep it curled. And anyway, down down to your neck there and so forth. And I wasn’t
much, I always had really short hair, much as I do now as I grew up. Then of course I had to
learn to curl my hair so it would look nice and then you would go out to practice in the morning
and you had your hair curled and when you come home it wasn’t curled, you’d curl it up again,
and I got so tired of curling my hair that after I was out of baseball it didn’t take me long to have
straight hair.
Interviewer: “Alright, and they had the dress code regulations? The skirts and…”
Yeah, yeah. No slacks, and things like that. And we would go on the bus and if you had to have a
potty break or something you would put your skirt over your slacks or take them off and if you
had shorts on you know you would have to cover them up (14:00). But one thing that I didn’t
like and I heard about the Comets and so forth was the skirts. I thought oh my god I couldn’t
show my legs, and I came from a town that was very modest and so that was hard, that was
something I thought I couldn’t do that. But once I played in the, the one series I thought well I
guess I could wear these uniforms. I never knew what to do people.
Interviewer: “Alright, now you were not too much of a runner so you didn’t get as many
strawberries as some of them did?”
Right, I got my share. But you know, they would send me, there would be a shock to the pitcher,
I would make second base but yeah, you get your share. But I didn’t steal like a lot of the girls.
Interviewer: “Alright, tell me a little bit more about that first season in Grand Rapids as
sort of a learning experience for you, you are the backup catcher. What kind of
accommodations did you have? Where did you stay when you were up there?”
(15:05)
We stayed with private families. And that was real nice you know, but we didn’t always have
transportation so it was like you had to take a bus or take a car. I didn’t have a car until 1948 so
that was a little difficult you know. Getting there in the morning for practice and then go home
and shower and so forth and go back and get ready for the game at night that was kind of a
bummer but you know it all worked out but…
Interviewer: “About how far from the field were you living from do you think?”
I don’t think I can remember.
Interviewer: “Were they playing at Southfield at that point?”
�Yeah.
Interviewer: “Ok, so that’s still in town right?”
Yeah
Interviewer: “Rather than Bigelow field which they played at later. Alright. Ok, and then
what was it like going on the road with the team?”
Well that was really super, I mean you know, at first when we went to spring training and from
there we went to Grand Rapids we took trains and that was really a bummer (16:01) because we
had to get on a train and it was it was one of those old fire trains and you would get all dirty and
then you always had a layover in in in Chicago and you wanted to go enjoy the scenery and
everything when you went back and forth, and we spent a lot of time you know, just getting back
and forth and it was during the war too and you know if if there was military men on the train
you were supposed to stand up and let them have the seats but of course the guys were always so
nice they always let you sit down which was very nice. So when they got the buses we were just
elated by that time I mean oh my goodness. To just hop on a bus you know was wonderful.
Interviewer: “That first season in Grand Rapids you were still riding trains most of the
time?”
Yup, yup.
Interviewer: “Alright, and then how much supervision did you have? How much
supervision did you have? How much did they look after you or regulate what you did?”
(17:00)
Well if you had a sore arm or any kind of bangs or bruises or anything you know, they would
take care of you. I know when I have a picture of I was in, we were we were practicing on some
field I don’t know where it was. Whether it was spring training, I think it was part of spring
training. And I had, I was playing in the offense catching flies and stuff. And I had stepped and
sprained my ankle really bad. So the chaperone came out there of course and took care of me.
And we had to put ice on it and all that stuff. Well then she said well you have to use heat. Well
evidently I must have been able to stand a lot of heat or something because I burned my ankle
something fierce and I had to heat it and it was going to make it well in a hurry you know and so
that wasn’t too pleasant. But had our share of, you know got spiked several times and stuff like
that. So they were wonderful really. But my first year I might add that I was so shy I don’t know
if I said 3 words the whole year. I’d listen and I didn’t ever have much to say you know, and I
kind of got over that but it took awhile. You know because I was just a _ you know.
(18:13)
�Interviewer: “Ok, ok you got to the end of that first season. Now, did they tell you that they
wanted you to come back or what?”
No, I was just went home and when they wrote in the spring training you know I went to South
Bend.
Interviewer: “Alright”
And that was fine. It didn’t bother me. The only time it bothered me was when I was with some,
I had met some wonderful, really close friends. We lived in, we lived in a house and a lady went
away for the winter and she let us stay in her house. It was 4 of us there and we got to be so close
you know. Well we were going on a road trip and we were loading up on the bus actually and
they called me over and told me it was I was traded to Racine (19:03). And at that time I thought
Racine was one of the better teams and I thought oh gosh you know, how will be accepted in a
team like that that won a championship? You know and stuff and I was kind of worried. And I
cried a lot, and I hadn’t before ever ever cried, couldn’t. And at that time I had a car so I had to
drive wherever it was to be the Racines so that was a bummer right before the bus left to go
somewhere and then told that you had been traded you know, so. But after that it didn’t bother
me.
Interviewer: “Alright, after your first season did you get more regular playing time as
catcher?”
Yeah, probably, well yeah probably even the second year I was behind Bonnie Baker as catcher
and it took a couple of years or so before I got to being got more playing time (20:04) you know,
but you got wait your turn you know. And you know I always thought a lot of the girls have so
much experience of course they had teams out there that played a lot so I just waited it out. So I
just kept trying and working and catching a lot batting practice. So…
Interviewer: “K, did you get to pitch hit or come into the games?”
Oh yeah I would a lot of times. I was a pretty good hitter. And yeah I did pitch you know, I’d get
my chances if we were ahead they put me in so I would get the experience and yeah that never
bothered me. I was just there and I was playing you know, and hung in there.
Interviewer: “Now you played with a number of different teams. Who do you think were
the best pitchers that you got to catch?”
Well the underhand pitchers was Connie Wisniewski (21:01) she was terrific. She was really
fine. Jo Kabick was on the team and was an underhand pitcher and she was fast, she was a really
good pitcher. Then, then later on when we went overhand I admired Jean Faut she was a great
pitcher and you know it was funny because I could hit Jeannie like nothing for some reason and
it used to get to Jeannie and she said she told them one time that it didn’t matter what she pitched
I would get a hit you know. But she was a great pitcher.
�Interviewer: “Alright, when you were catching her, who called the pitches? Did she decide
pretty much what to pitch, or did you just know?”
I called the pitches pretty much, when she was there. And we just got along so good and I think it
was Dottie Mueller that she pitched a golden game one time and I got her and you know I did
call the pitches (22:00). I used to sit in the dug-out you know when the other team was warming
up and stuff like that and I would watch the hitters, where they hit the ball and how they hit the
ball you know and kind of study them so I would kind of know where not to pitch them you
know.
Interviewer: “So it may be that you and Jean were pretty much on the same page.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Because when I interviewed her, she was pretty sure that she was picking
most of her own pitches.”
Well you know, she shakes it off and maybe she did, you know it’s been a long time. But I know
for the most part I…
Interviewer: “Right, but you and she did essentially the same thing. Which was to study the
hitters and then to get it so you got that together.”
Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: “Now, one of the things about the league was there were certain women who
were really good base stealers. And, were you, how successful were you at keeping them
under control?”
I’ll tell you what to be honest I wasn’t the best catcher to pick off people (23:00). Now I had this
thing when I was in Grand Rapids, I used to throw a little bit more side arm and I had a much
better arm. Well when I got there they said oh, you go to learn how to throw overhand like this.
So I got so that I practiced, I did have a good sore arm from doing it in Grand Rapids my first
year, but I got the hang of it. But what it did was made me conscious of I had to bring my arm up
to throw the ball and I lost the timing of it and I just couldn’t overcome that so I wasn’t the best
in my mind I was always you know am I going to do this right?, or something you know and it
probably, I wasn’t the best catcher to pick off people. I was good at something but just to be
honest.
Interviewer: “Now once you got to be playing fairly regularly, were you a pretty consistent
hitter?”
Yeah, yeah. I was a pretty good hitter considering the batting averages that we have you know
the girls. I was right up there, not real close to the top but my last year in South Bend was my
best year around 77 so…
�(24:12)
Interviewer: “Now would you get extra base hits, would you get doubles and triples?”
Yeah. I never hit a home run. I can’t believe that because I was so slow. That would mean that I
would have to hit it over the fence and we didn’t have that many fences. We did in South Bend
but we didn’t in Grand Rapids. And I could do it in practice but I never did it in a game.
Interviewer: “Alright, now you were, what was the total length of time you were playing?
You started in really in ’45 in terms of full seasons and… ”
’52, eight years.
Interviewer: “Okay, that’s a good chunk of time in there and a lot of different things went
on in the league at that time. One of the things was that you kept moving spring training
around.”
Right.
Interviewer: “Your first spring training was Wrigley field.”
(25:00)
That’s right.
Interviewer: “Where did you go in later years?”
Oh gosh. We were in Mississippi, Indiana. We went to Florida. And I don’t know, so many
places I can’t remember all of them.
Interviewer: “Did you make the trip to Cuba?”
Yes I did.
Interviewer: “Alright”
That was quite a thing. My first airplane ride and first of everything and that was a lot of fun. I
mean, but I wasn’t too crazy about the food over there. So I ordered some leche, that’s milk and
at lunch time they would have ham sandwiches and stuff, American you know, milk…and I kind
of liked that. And they had fried bananas and powdered eggs and stuff that I didn’t eat…
Interviewer: “Alright, now how was playing in Cuba different than playing in the states?”
Well actually it was very much the same.
Interviewer: “Well I’m thinking in terms of the fans and the atmosphere.”
�Well the fans, yeah yeah. They were something else. Actually we knew more people over there
than we did in America so that was really interesting (26:00). So being in a hotel at that walking
on the streets you have to be with somebody at the time. And we had a curfew. And we couldn’t
go out of the hotel you know, because it was too dangerous. But anyway it was kind of comical
we had, I have a picture of it, we had we had the long rope had been hung from the 3rd floor and
it had a basket on it and we would lower that and the guys down stairs would go and get us some
cokes you know and we would pull it up and I got a picture of that you know. But my daughter
brought them up when she was here some of them, I remember that you know and sloppy joes. I
have pictures of course. I have a lot of pictures.
Interviewer: “And what sloppy joes?”
Well it was, they use a lot of their drink, what is it? Rum, they had a lot of rum and stuff, but I
wasn’t a drinker so I had coke, never was one to… I have never had a drink in my life.
(27:00)
Interviewer: “Alright, then what did you remember about Pascagoula? What was that
like?”
I remember going into the barracks when we were at an army base and opening the door and turn
on a light and cockroaches running everywhere you know. And we used to call it Cockroach
Boulevard and it was something else you know, it was something else. We slept with the lights
on but that was something else. But our managers at that time when they saw the situation they
came back with this, I forget what kind of fish that was red...no that’s not it.
Interviewer: “River snapper?”
Yeah, something like that. And they cooked it outside on a fire pit and that was the best fish I’ve
ever…that was good.
Interviewer: “Now when you came back from Pascagoula did you just go to your
individual teams or did you stop and play along the way?”
(28:04)
We paired off with another team and then we would stop at various places. They had a book and
we would play at exhibitions. Gave us the practice to play with teams and people could see what
kind of ball we played and in many places the people there were so great you know. That one
place, I think it was North Carolina a guy took us out on a cruise it was so nice, a nice man you
know took us out on like on a boat and we went on a cruise and stuff like that. But they always
wanted us in parades and stuff like that. You know, it was, it was fun. We would kind of laugh
amongst ourselves, we’re not nothing you know we’re just ball players you know. But it was a
great experience.
�Interviewer: “Now were you with the group that played at Griffins Stadium in Washington
and then when up into Yankee stadium? You didn’t do that part?”
(29:00)
I wished I had, but no.
Interviewer: “Ok, so what parts of the country did you tour through then, because you
were in the south?”
Through the south North Carolina, South Carolina, or Virginia or whatever…Mississippi.
Interviewer: “Ok, did you have one season that you thought was probably sort of your best
season or your most successful one, or either individually or as a team?”
Well I don’t know. Yeah I guess you know as far as the friendships and stuff that was one thing,
but of course I was fairly happy with my last year when we won the championship because I had
never won a championship before, but then in ’52 we won a championship then and that was just
an amazing you know. Although at that time you know I had been married for 2 years and after a
game I would go right home you know. I didn’t participate with the girls a lot and stuff. So I
probably wasn’t as close to them as I was with some of the other teams before.
(30:06)
Interviewer: “Now were you still catching at that time or had you changed positions?”
No, at that time I was playing at first base. I played the last two years.
Interviewer: “Now would you rather have kept catching or was it better at first?”
Well I like catching better but first base was ok too.
Interviewer: “Why did they shift you out from catcher?”
I don’t know. Maybe because, maybe because I didn’t throw well enough.
Interviewer: “Alright, well let’s see what was it? Well I guess when you had been growing
up and had been playing you would play anyplace, well first base you got to field grounders
and that kind of thing…”
Oh yeah, we’d play short stop or play the outfield you know. A few times I played the outfield
sometimes they would just stick me in so I could play. I was a pretty good hitter so they would
put me in and I liked that.
�Interviewer: “Ok, well you mentioned that you got married during your career, which was
a little bit unusual. Tell us a little bit about that, how did you wind up getting married?
And what, how, what happened after that?”
(31:04)
Well yeah, well I had been going with my husband for about, I probably met him about a year or
two into when I was playing ball. And he used to come to Peoria and places to see me play and
stuff like that. And then of course then when I would go home we liked to dance and we would
go to a lot of dances every Saturday night and stuff. And then finally he in ’50 we got married so
I was playing in Racine, well no I wasn’t but anyway a bunch of the girls from the Racine girls
came to the wedding and it was real fun we had a big wedding. So we had been building our own
house before we were married because I said my parents lost their house and I saw what they
went through and I always said if I’m going to get married I’m going to have a house. So my
husband and I, he hadn’t done much building, (32:00) he had some cows and stuff but he hadn’t
done much building. But I had worked on the farm. I had shingled roofs and I had made cement
block. My Dad was always going to build a house and he never got to it but I would make
cement blocks by myself you know. So I had more experience. And we bought a place you know
and we did all, we built the house ourselves and we did all the cement work. I mixed it with an
electric mixer I mixed all the cement and Ray would install it. And I ended up bricking the whole
house and we had a very very nice house. We had hardwood floors. We did have, my uncle was
a carpenter so we did have him that was quite a job in itself you know. Ray learned and did the
electrical and the plumbing and I was right there to help with whatever, I helped with the roof
and putting in the cement floors. So we built part, we built 4 rooms and it was like a little doll
house. It was really cute, all we needed was utility you know. And then we added on 5 rooms
and we didn’t move in until it was done and we did have it plastered. We did all the dry wall but
we did get it plastered.
(33:14)
Interviewer: “At the beginning of that you mentioned that you had a book on how to build
a house?”
Yes, how to build a house.
Interviewer: “Alright, and you just followed that.”
Yes.
Interviewer: “How did you pay for it?”
Well I was working then again at that time American Motors. When I left South Bend, people
from the South Bend from the dealership there got me a job again back in American Motors. So
when I went back I had a job. So I worked there for several years and we were paid for it as we
�went along. Because we didn’t have much money and they wouldn’t give you a loan. So then we
paid for it as we went along. And we never owed a penny on our house.
Interviewer: “Were you able to save any money from when you were a ball player?”
(34:01)
Oh yeah. I was a saver. I used to save you know. Well you could get a meal for a buck then you
know after a game and stuff. Yeah I was a saver and that was one of the reasons that I could con
my husband into letting me play ball I could save my money you know and you could save yours
and we can add that 5 rooms on you know. So he was, he was a wonderful guy and very great so
he went a long with it. Which was so...yeah.
Interviewer: “Now did the league have a policy about married players? Were you treated
differently?”
Not really, except for riding the bus. I know Karl Winsch was our manager at the time and Ray
came down and it wasn’t too long after that we were married and we were both one city to
another and Ray was down there to visit and he wouldn’t let me ride with him. He said no, you
can’t ride, you have to ride in the bus because of insurance and blah blah blah you know and so
Ray had to drive by himself. I thought well come on.
(35:02)
Interviewer: “And then did you still have to stay in the team hotels with the girls and that
kind of thing?”
Oh yeah.
Interviewer: “So he was on his own there?”
Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: “Alright, now why did you wind up leaving the league? Because you finished
after ’52.”
Mainly because I had been married for 2 years and things, you could see that things were going
to slow down. We weren’t going the way we did Ray coming over and driving back and stuff
like that. So there was one time that we didn’t we had to wait for our bus and stuff and I thought
I had been married for 2 years and it was time and it’s not fair to Ray and you are going to have
to hang it up sometime. But then, so then I called it quits. But I went on playing since and I
played with my two daughters until they went to college. I even played when they were in
college, we played summer ball. You know, so I never quit playing. Actually I played quite a bit
so.
�(36:03)
Interviewer: “Alright, so now so did you go, did you have continue to work or were you
eventually able to just to stay home or…?”
Well yeah, I worked for I guess about 5 years until when Janet my oldest daughter was born I
had to you know. And I was working nights, and Ray was working days. Well you know how
was it? He was working the nights and I was working the days. So Janet the baby, Janet the baby
would sleep during the night when I would get home from work should we rearing to go you
know. So I didn’t get much sleep. Well one day I was giving her a bath in the morning and I fell
asleep giving her a bath and it scared the tar out of me. So I quit after that, I took a leave of
absence, I quit. So then I didn’t work for, until the kids were in school. Then I worked part time
in the post man’s office. I used to fill in for her some. Then the last six years I worked full time
in the postman’s office and I retired from there.
(37:16)
Interviewer: “Alright, now as time goes on and you’ve got your daughters growing up, do
your daughters play sports or did you encourage them?”
Oh yeah, both of them played. Well Janet was more interested in music which she was a good
ball player but my youngest daughter was an excellent ball player and she’s a phys ed teacher
today. She was an excellent, she could have made the, actually they had a team in the Peoria
after that we went down when I was coaching and we went down and played them and lost to
them but I think we lost one to nothing actually. But Judy played in the, what was it? Applehorn.
Irene Applehorn was signed down there and she said you know you should Judy try out for this
team. Well you know, she was only 15 and I said oh she’s too young. Come on. But I couldn’t let
her go, so.
(38:13)
Interviewer: “As you are kind of going forward in time there are starting to be more
opportunities for women to be involved in sports and Title 9 comes into and stuff. Were
you following that or paying attention to what was happening?”
Not, not a whole lot. I mean, I mean we had more competitive sports. Although when my kids
were in high school they just started a basketball and volleyball or something, there still wasn’t
softball or anything in high school. But then when you went into college she played, the
youngest one played volleyball and softball and then I coached at the college area she was in,
close to Kenosha. And she, Janet went on into music.
(38:58)
�Interviewer: “Okay, back when you were playing in the league, did any you think about
what you were doing as sort of pioneering? Or doing new things for women?”
When I came home from the league I had, I had 8 balls one signed from every year that I played.
I had a bunch of different program books from all the various towns. I had contracts; I had 2
uniforms, a jacket with that went on the league at the time. I take the uniforms and stuff like that
so I had all that stuff and I threw it into a closet and forgot about it, you know. Well then when
my kids got to be 7, 8 years old one time I dragged them out put the uniforms on them and took
pictures of them you know. So they knew a little bit, I never really talked about it, but all the
years I played nobody really…you know and then it seemed like we had our first reunion in 1982
(40:00) and when I got that letter it had a picture of a baseball player on it and it was just like
they were calling you for spring training and you are getting your contract. I opened that letter
and I was just so excited you know. That we were going to have a reunion. Well I went to the
post office and I had, you had to pick your spot when you wanted to take your vacation at the
beginning of the year and that was it. So I had taken vacation a different time already with Ray,
and so I went up to them and said well you know this reunion is coming up and I am going to
that reunion I have to have off. You know I have to change, and at first they said well that’s too
bad you had your vacation picked out, we can’t do anything about it. I says, well then I quit. I
would’ve quit too. No question in my mind. Well anyway, it didn’t take them too long after that.
Then I found out that I could take off of work you know. So I went to that reunion and of course
that was something else. And you would have to look at people they would have a little picture
from when we played and we would say oh that’s who you are. You know, just like we knew it.
Now we see each other more often.
(41:19)
Interviewer: “So you’ve really been involved in this sort of league organization to regroup
since pretty much its inception. Now were you involved at all in the steps surrounding the
movie?”
Oh yeah, oh yeah. Actually we went out to Cooperstown (New York) for the unveiling of our
display for the first time and that was something else. I think they said there was around 400
people there. The guy said he never saw so many people for something like that you know at the
museum there. So that was really a thrill to do that. So then when they came and said they were
going to make the movie oh my god we were like wow (42:00). You know so then they were
going to have these try outs for the movie and they said whomever would like to try out for the
movie if you can still play ball come to Smokey, Illinois. Well Anna Hutchinson who was a great
pitcher and lived in Racine, we were pretty good buddies by that time said we can play ball, heck
we can go down to Smokey. So we went down to Smokey and of course Madonna was there and
other ball players were there and stuff. And what was really cute was I went up and asked
Madonna for an autograph and I got a ball. So I got an autograph from Madonna and I didn’t
realize that nobody else but the ball players could go talk to the movie stars you know. Well we
�all had shirts on that we could tell so in the meantime I met this young man there and he was so
elated that Madonna was there he just wanted to say hello you know (43:01). I said to him, I said
“Gee I went up and asked for her autograph and I don’t think it’s any problem. Just go up and
ask her she’s very nice”, you know. Well he starts walking up toward Madonna and there were
men all around her within about 2 seconds they said “Where do you think you’re going?” You
know, I felt so bad I thought oh my god I told the poor guy that you could go up and ask
Madonna for an autograph. They just chased him away they didn’t do anything you know but so
that was all of you know. But then they were looking for the way I understand it that we could
play the part of the older players later you know, but you had to have the same eyes, the same
hair this ball of wax and it didn’t work out you know. Then we heard that they were just going to
take a few people extras to Coopersville. Well then our advisor said that I could that she had
talked to Penny or somebody and said you know all these 49 people came out for the play offs. I
think you should take them all (44:06). Well then they decided to take them all. So then Hutch
and I got to go there for the movie. But what the sad part was that the reunion at that time was
the same time as the movie in Florida. So that was the first reunion I was going to miss. You
know, and that kind of broke my heart, but you have to make a choice and I think we made the
right one, it was a fun time. We played ball all day and stuff like that. And she took hundreds of
film you know and one thing that I thought was great was on the scene when they came back to
the hall of fame but my friend there one day she forgot her glasses. Well they’re filming and all
of the sudden they say cut and Madonna or or...what’s her name? Our producer,
Interviewer: “Penny Marshall”
(45:00)
Penny Marshall, I’m sorry. She goes up and says you don’t have your glasses on. I mean, you
know here’s this whole bunch of people and she had to go get her glasses on before they could
start the film. She was just a stickler for…you know just oh just perfection. And then the thing
that killed me was when we had to cut the ribbon to the hall of fame, it took us 2 days to get that
right and we were there until I don’t know what time in the morning before she was satisfied,
and we were all going home that day. We were pretty concerned you know but…geese, she was
a perfectionist. But it was neat, we stayed in the motels there. And we got to see a lot of friends
again, all my friends were there. So that was really, it was a good time. But like I told Penny one
time, I said well I said it was a great time I talked to her but I wouldn’t want to be a movie star I
says it’s too hard. You spend all that time doing it over and over you know so. Then Penny, she
really put us on the map.
(46:18)
Interviewer: “Now if you look back over your playing career, what affect do you think
getting to play professional ball, what affect did that have on you or what did that do for
you?”
�Well I’ll tell you, for me it made me more outgoing type of a person. I had more confidence in
myself you know and I just figured it wasn’t anything I couldn’t do. So when we could build a
house, we could do anything. Anything you want to do you can do in this life if you just work
hard and keep working.
Interviewer: “Alright, well you got a great story, you do a great job at telling it.”
I was going to tell you about where I saw the movie.
(47:05)
Interviewer: “Yeah, do that, yes please.”
After we were in the movie, then my daughter lived in Europe for 7 or 8 years in Germany, and
we had been over there several times. Well we went over there, it must have been ’91 or ’92
when the movie came out and so Janet had a radio station or something and said you know about
me being in the movie and that I had played in that ball. And so Frankfurt called us, called Janet,
they must have gotten her number. And said that they had already shown the movie at the theatre
in Frankfurt, and she said Piper’s her daughter and they said would your mother come to the
movie and she can bring her family and she said and talk to the people afterwards after the movie
you know, and we will bring the movie back. So we said, oh sure, so we went to Frankfurt and
they took us all through the studio (48:00) and showed us a bunch of stuff and that and we went
to the movie and we talked for a little bit afterwards with the people and stuff but the thing that I
thought was neat is that my family over there got to get in on this movie thing you know because
they didn’t get much news and stuff from at home you know. Where my other family, my other
daughter was right there in Kenosha and she lived with me kind of. So then this reporter came
over to interview us and Piper’s daughter. And my grandkids were pretty small then and I had
brought one grandchild with me from Kenosha and so they, we were throwing balls and doing all
kinds of things and they were pitching to me and we were hitting and she took all these pictures
and everything and you know or movies and they put it on the TV and of course they made it
sound like I was Tina Davis because I had (49:00) come from a farm and I had told her all that
stuff. You know, but I had also told her that this was a composite; you know it’s not about me,
it’s not about, it’s about all the players and everything and I had never liked that when one would
take credit for it you know. So when she made the movie the tape, it made it sound like I was
Tina Davis you know, and I was pretty embarrassed about that, I didn’t want to show anybody.
And she did a really good job, so anyway later somehow she contacted me and sent me the tape.
So I have a tape of that interview in the in Germany you know. So that was a thrill. And then too
they took pictures and that and put them into the Stars and Stripes in an article about all the
league and about my name. So we were somewhere with Janet and some guy walked up and said
you look so familiar were you in the paper? You know, and here he had seen it in Stars and
Stripes you know. I thought that was pretty great.
�(50:01)
Interviewer: “So when you are being interviewed in Frankfurt was this by sort of by the
American military bases there and stuff?
Yes there was from the military bases. She was in the military and actually she tried to contact
me after she got out of the military and she called Dolly White and for some reason Dolly
wouldn’t give her my address and stuff and we lost track. And I went she was supposed to move
to Warsaw. So my husband and I were going up that way to see my brother and we stopped there
and tried to find her name in the book and stuff and we couldn’t find her. I felt bad about that,
she was a nice gal and she was really interested in the league and she wanted to stay interested
you know and we just lost out on her. You know, so that was that was a real experience that I
never would have thought I would have. Oh and I was on a marquee at a theatre. It said: “Joyce
Hill a Western Leader,” you know and I thought oh my god.
(51:00)
Interviewer: “You’re a star. Did you have something else? Oh you have a…”
Oh a friend of mine is from a neighboring place there and plays with the Kenosha Kings and he
hits. He comes back every year from Australia he went over there to coach and its softball or
baseball for the girls. So then after a couple of years the Australian girls came up here in
Kenosha were in the World Series thing. So this summer since they’ve been back again in to play
once again, and married a girl from Australia, she’s young. Oh they’re bringing 5 or 6 girls over
from Australia and they are going to make a tour of Rockford and there’s another team, I don’t
know much about it, we just found out about it at the meeting but they are going to play those
girls. I met the head of it (52:02). It was Ron, you know my friend. Everything just sort of gels
somehow you know? From one thing to another, so I had talked to Ron and he gave me a
schedule and said that you’re invited to come to all these things you know the Cubs games, you
know go see the Cubs. He said I’ll pick you up and take you and bring you back so that’s
another thing these girls are doing which is just super. It call came kind of from the background
of the All Americans. And I think that is one of the things that I’m the proudest of. You look out
how these kids started in little league as little girls you know, and they are great athletes. That’s
nice.
Interviewer: “Alright”
Oh in Milwaukee, yeah (53:00). They have a wall of fame and they were honoring some of the
Wisconsin girls. One every year for awhile and they would have a luncheon and we would get up
on a plaque. Now we have new owners in Milwaukee and they don’t do as much for us. So they
just decided that they just said that they put all the Wisconsin people on a plaque you know. But
that was really nice you know ...they gave us a Milwaukee blue jacket, it was nice yeah. It was
nice being there. There were several of us that would go there.
�So many things that, and it all evolved from the league so, it’s all tied together.
Interviewer: “It is and it’s kind of good to see more things coming back around kind of
getting more connecting women back to base ball, and more people playing. And you get to
sort of be connected to them. Alright.
Yeah right. One thing that I am really proud of, it’s my family. Two girls (54:00) and I have 8
grand children. Jan has 4 and my other daughter has 4. And most of them, almost all of them are
really good athletes. Dance, you know and that sort of thing. I’m very proud of them. Next to the
league that’s the greatest thing that ever happened to me.
Interviewer: “Alright, well thank again for coming in and talking to us.”
(54:24)
��
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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RHC-58_JWesterman
Title
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Westerman, Joyce (Interview outline and video), 2010
Creator
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Westerman, Joyce
Description
An account of the resource
Joyce Westerman was born in Kenosha, Wisconsin, in 1925. She grew up there and played sports whenever she could. She was playing ball on a company team in Kenosha when she was offered a chance to fill in for an injured player for the Kenosha Comets in 1944, and then joined the league in 1945. She played for eight seasons, including stops in Grand Rapids, South Bend, Racine and Peoria, primarily playing catcher.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Language
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eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-08-07
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fff4db0931b72f7532359498cdb682a4.m4v
72ed15cc84d8bda66515f1060fc06225
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/428f12781a3bd30360554b6dce3001a6.pdf
9d94cfc8650e7efc9c87ceb92ddb1a91
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
ELMA WEISS
Women in Baseball
Born: Columbus, Ohio
Resides: Phoenix, Arizona
Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 7, 2010,
Detroit, MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, January 4, 2011
Interviewer: “Now Elma, can you begin by giving us a little bit of background on
yourself?”
Yes, I was born in Columbus, Ohio in 1923 and we’ll skip the early years.
Interviewer: “I would like to ask a little bit about the early years. What did your
family do for a living in those days?”
Well, originally farmers, everybody was a farmer in that era and he was an electrician.
He had a lot of work with professional buildings. He wired hospitals and businesses and
part of the Ohio State University stadium because we lived in Columbus just a short
distance from the campus. 55:12
Interviewer: “Did you grow up in Columbus and go to school there?”
Yes, I grew up and went to school there and started at Ohio State University, and I
completed three years and then the war changed people’s lived dramatically, as you
know, and we had we had a shortage of teachers, but the rule at that time was, if you had
completed three years of college and you could get a principal to hire you, you could
teach school, so that’s what I did. After my third year I went to Port Clinton, Ohio, and
taught high school for a year and then I was supposed to go back and finish, but I went
back, but the urge, the desire to be patriotic again—instead of finishing my senior year I
joined the navy.
1
�Interviewer: “Why did you choose the navy as opposed to another branch of the
service?” 56:00
This is going to sound funny, but it was strictly because I didn’t like the khaki uniforms.
I liked the navy blue.
Interviewer: “You are not the first WAVE to tell us that. That they had better
uniforms.
Is that right?
Interviewer: “So you did that and once you signed up what—where did they send
you for training?”
For the navy, do you mean?
Interviewer: “Yes”
All of us went to New York at the time and we spent—I think it was four months or six
weeks, it was six weeks, in basic training and my major was in physical education, so I
had another three months in New York City and then eventually I ended up in Oakland,
California.
Interviewer: “While you were going through basic training and then more
specialized training, tell us a little bit about what that was like. In basic training,
what do they have the women do?” 56:56
Well, they were trying to get us familiar with navy terms and so forth, and we had to
learn that the floor was the deck and the stairs were ladders and so forth, so we spoke in
navy terms and we were taught to recognize and identify airplanes and ships and so forth.
Just so we could—we didn’t expect to get aboard a ship, and of course we didn’t, but we
knew all the navy lingo and that’s the way they wanted it.
2
�Interviewer: “Did they teach you discipline and all that kind of thing?”
Oh yes, we were under the same rules. I went home for Christmas at one time and we
were snowed in on the train coming back and in the navy they don’t care about a
snowstorm. What happens if you miss your ship? The war might hinge on you making
your ship, so we had to serve what they call “a captain’s mast” and you had to work
cleaning the decks or something of that nature. 57:54 They treated us like the young
men.
Interviewer: “Did they give you a lot of physical training and exercise?”
No, I already had that actually, at the university, but we did go through—they called it PT
and we did some exercises and swimming.
Interviewer: “What year was this when you joined the navy?”
It was in 1943, in 1943 I was still in school at that time, so we covered the summer and I
went in the fall of 1943 and served in 1944 and was discharged at the end of 1945.
Interviewer: ‘What did your physical education background—how did that affect
your assignment? You mentioned you had been majoring in that, so they had you
go to a particular kind of training and you stayed in New York for three or four
months and what were you doing at that time?”
Well, they called it Specialist I Training and I guess it’s what a drill sergeant would do
more or less and when I was a student I was a student company commander and I was in
charge of six sections of forty girls each. 59:05 I recall one day we mustered out in front
to go to breakfast and one—she was a specialist I guess, and she called out the window
that she overslept and I was standing down there and we were all standing at parade rest,
two hundred girls there, and she said, “can you get them to the mess hall?” I called the
3
�company and turned them around and marched them down the street and bleeped them to
the right and to the mess hall, and I was so proud of myself and I was so proud of myself
as a youngster doing that, really.
Interviewer: “Now, were most of the women training about the same age?”
I suppose they were, you had to be twenty-one to go in—well I was, let’s see—you had
to be twenty-one to go in the navy, which is one reason I didn’t go in earlier. I wasn’t
that old yet. 59:54
Interviewer: “Well, the men were going into the navy at seventeen and eighteen.”
But not the women
Interviewer: “Not the women, alright, so basically you’re training to train other
people.”
That’s pretty much the size of it, yeah. The S really stood for shore patrol for the men,
but we ended up being in charge of barracks.
Interviewer: “So, you go out to Oakland, California, now what was there?”
Well, the WAVE barracks were in the heart of town and what we had to do, we were
called “ship’s company” because we didn’t go, but every morning buses would come in,
and several hundred girls would get on the buses and they would be taken out to one of
the navy stations, but “ship’s company”, there were about twenty of us, stayed there and I
arranged recreation for them by buying books for the rec room I guess, and records and I
painted a badminton court and I managed a softball team and things of that nature for the
girls. 0:56
Interviewer: “All right, what do you think was the most interesting aspect of that
job?”
4
�Well, I enjoyed—I took leather craft the year before—see, when I’d gone out there I
couldn’t get in because I was a day late at the university, so I was out there and all I had
was about seventy five dollars and I came from Ohio of course, and didn’t have enough
money to go back home and didn’t know—I said, “don’t panic”, and I had training in
recreation, so I went down to the city recreation department to see if they would hire me
and they said, “well, you’re in luck because we’re just doing Civil Service training now
and you can take the test”, so I took the test the next day, as a matter of fact, and the rule
in Civil Service was that whoever got the top scores had to get the top jobs, so they had to
hire me. There was a woman who had taught at the Golden Gate Recreation Center down
there and she was much better and knew her job and they wanted to keep her too, so they
had to create a job for me. 1:58 I ended up working at playgrounds quite a bit for a year
until I was eligible to go to the university.
Interviewer: “That was after the naval service then?”
No, this was—let’s see, I’m getting mixed up on dates. It was after the naval service, but
before the baseball.
Interviewer: “All right, we were talking about the naval service itself and I asked
what was the most interesting part of that job.”
Well, I use to play a trumpet years ago and I recall one time we were raising the flag on
our post and several officers came out and I practiced raising the reveille in the morning
and took some pictures of that and that was kind of thrilling and exciting too because I
wasn’t a top trumpet player. I was kind of exciting with all the people standing around
saluting and watching the flag go us and here I was struggling with that bugle. 2:59 that
was interesting and then we had a softball team and the navy girls played the coast guard
5
�and marine women’s group and we sang in a chorus and we went out to San Quentin one
time just to sing for the prisoners, so there were recreation type of things you know.
Interviewer: “Did you feel like you were doing something useful for the war effort
or making a contribution?”
Well, I suppose so, I didn’t really think about the war in essence, I just did the job that I
was supposed to do and we were supposed to take care of the women. They trained me
in leather craft during my work in the recreation department there in the city of Oakland,
and I ended up teaching the craft to women in the Golden Gate Community Center. That
was fun because that was strictly afterwards, but I had learned that in the navy and that
was good because that was something they could really gain from. We made wallets and
belts and purses and things like that. 4:02
Interviewer: “So, you had kind of a direct connection between the naval career and
that work in the Civil Service that you did afterward. It all kind of fit together and
they all grew out of the training that you already had in college.”
You’re exactly right, the physical education and the actions there and the recreation
things that I did.
Interviewer: “All right, now we’re going to go back up a little bit, going back again
to being a kid, how did you start playing sports?”
Well, we lived near a playground and it was just about a block away, a city municipal
playground, and every summer when school was out we were at the playground. They
had fifteen softball diamonds there and every summer they had the industrial leagues and
church leagues and other leagues there and I used to go down there all the time and sell
pop for five cents to—carry a bucket with twelve bottles of coke and holler, “ice cold pop
6
�five cents”, and they would stop the ball game, and so I worked in the summer selling
pop to the ball players. 5:00 In the daytime when the diamonds weren’t used , we used
them and we played different, other playgrounds..
Interviewer: “Who is “we”, who were you playing with?”
Well, mostly local boys and girls that I knew and who were my age level. It was from
about the—well, I started doing that when I was in the first or second grade when I
started playing softball, but more in the ninth grade and on into high school.
Interviewer: “There were other girls beside you who were playing?”
Yes and we played other local playgrounds and eventually we played night ball for a shoe
company, J.K. Shoe Company, and we were hired to work at the shoe company because
we played softball, so every summer we did that and we had a pretty fair team.
Interviewer: “By this time you’re getting specifically women’s teams?”
Women’s softball teams 5:52
Interviewer: “So, you’re actually involved in that at that time. Then did you
continue to play when you went on to college?”
Yes, but not so much. You know in those days women were supposed to behave
differently and we were told not to play on a team that was coached by a man. That’s
what they told us at Ohio State, so we—but I loved softball so much that I thought what I
do in the summer is my own business as long as I make my grade in the winter, so I
played for local teams that were coached by men and then we went to state tournaments
and so forth, so we had pretty fair teams.
Interviewer: “Did you go out of state when you were playing softball or did you
stay in the state?”
7
�It was all state wide, but we went to state tournaments up around Elyria and Toledo and
Cleveland, up that way. 6:41
Interviewer: “How did you wind up signing with the All American Girls
Professional Baseball league?”
Well, I was out in California at the University of California Berkley working on my
master’s degree in 1948 and I was playing at the time with some softball players in
Alameda, California and they were quite famous because they were the world champions.
I knew two girls out there that had been picked to be members of the All American
League and they told me about it and they told me that Bill Allington was a scout and
coach and he was trying people out, so I got a hold of him and he tried me out and I was
an outfielder, so he hit a lot of fly balls to see if I could catch and checked my arm out to
see if I could throw and whether I could run and the next thing I knew I was in Peoria,
Illinois. I was sent there to play with the Red Wings.
Interviewer: “What year was that?”
That would be 1948 and that was a little bit difficult for me because, well, I was older
then, I was twenty five and many of the girls played ball when they were fifteen years
old, but it was a little different for me and I sort of suspected that maybe they were going
to make a chaperone out of me because I had the college credits and all of that, but I
played there and enjoyed it very, very much. 8:03
Interviewer: “Did they have you play all outfield positions?”
I was outfield and I could play any of them. The trouble is, the college wasn’t out until
June and they started their spring training in April and by the time I got there they had
finished their spring training and were well into the season, so I’d of had to be a pretty
8
�fair player in order to break into the line-up, so I did a lot of things, I pitched batting
practice, and participated and they taught me different things. The game was different
from softball, so it took me a while to learn, so one time at the end of that first season the
coach said, “you’re going to start tonight. You’re going to play right field and you’re
going to play the whole game”. Oh boy, I thought this was just great, so I played the
game and played well. I made a couple double plays, which I figured in catching the ball
and throwing the runner in off base. I thought, “Now I can show them what I can do”.
This proves, in those days professional ball was the same for the women as it was for the
men and it is a business. 9:08 I didn’t know it, but the next day I was shipped out to
Rockford, and he let me play the game because he knew I was going to be leaving the
next day, so it’s a business, you go wherever they want you.
Interviewer: “All right, when you got to Rockford did you get a chance to play any
more?”
Well, there were two weeks left in the season, so then I went home and worked there and
the next year instead of going back to Rockford they had me on the tour. They were
trying to popularize the league in the south and we played in Georgia, Alabama, Arkansas
and Louisiana, all the way down there for the season. Getting close to the end of the
season my back was hurting me quite a bit, so when I went home I just never went back
to the league. 9:51
Interviewer: “Because of the way you joined the league, coming in in mid-season
and kind of moving around a lot, and maybe also the fact that you were a little bit
older, did they tell you much in the way of what kind of rules you had to follow and
that kind of thing?”
9
�Well, they didn’t because they were well into their training, but I learned from the other
girls everything that I had to know and they had their rules, which we had to follow, as
you well know.
Interviewer: “So, you had to wear the skirts and so forth and all that kind of
thing.”
The nice thing about the league—the fact was they just accept all the girls. If you play
one day, one week, one month, one year or ten years, you’re part of the family more or
less. That is the thing that has been so good because over all these years we’ve all
maintained a relationship with each other and I think that’s a wonderful thing. I think we
did a lot really. 10:50 I was teaching school when Title IX came in and women just
didn’t do things in those days and I was in on a lot of this changing and I think it was
fascinating business. We didn’t know we were pioneers until the movie was made and
the cards were made and we didn’t know this.
Interviewer: “When they got to the point where they were making the movie were
you connected with that or did you participate?”
I was teaching school again and I couldn’t go. You know that’s—that was a good thing,
but it also kept me from doing other things.
Interviewer: “How long did you teach?”
As a whole now, I’ve taught over thirty years. I have a degree from Ohio State and from
the university in Berkeley, California and a doctorate from Arizona State University.
Interviewer: “And did you take the doctorate also in physical education?”
Yes
Interviewer: “And have you taught at the university level as well?”
10
�Yes, it was almost all—I finished my last twenty-five years at Phoenix College, which is
a two-year community college. 11:51
Interviewer: “Did you do coaching while you were there too?”
Yes, we had to coach and that was another thing, we had intramurals and we had sports
day, but women coaches were not paid, we just had to do these things, but we never got
paid, we just had straight teaching jobs. We got paid for teaching and we went through
all of that, we went through all the different sports and then Title IX came along and the
men gave us a lot of static because they thought they were going to lose some money.
That the women were going to get the scholarships and some of the money, so we had all
kinds of wars with the men’s departments. It was just true over all the universities at that
time and I think Title IX was—and thing like our league here being pioneers and all that,
I think they were some of the best things that ever happened for women in sports and to
live in that era was a very interesting thing for me. 12:47
Interviewer: “And you were really in a position to watch those changes.”
Yes, I saw all those, I was department chairman when the money came in and we hired
volleyball players, basketball players and I coached a softball team in college then.
Interviewer: “Let’s go back to the playing days. Tell us a little bit about life with
the traveling teams. How did that work?”
Well, when I was with Peoria, with the Red Wings, we had so many games away from
home and we were assigned by the chaperone, we had roommates in the hotels and we
were given per diem money. When we were at our home base we had a family that we
lived with and I guess maybe we were home about a week at a time and then we would
go off on the different trips, so that was interesting. The second year when I was
11
�traveling in the south and it was kind of rugged. 13:43 They had the two teams, we
traveled on one bus and I remember we had one more player than we had seats, so we
alternated and walked up and down the aisle. When it was time to stop somewhere they
had two rooms in a hotel and we all showered in those two rooms and we were off to a
game every night, but when you’re young you can do a lot of things.
Interviewer: “Because you were a little bit older, did you kind of fall into a little bit
of a chaperone role too?”
No, but after the end of my two years, they had never said this to me, but I kind of
suspected that might have been why they kept me on because I was not playing regularly.
As a matter of fact, I only played about seventeen games in those—if you take both of the
summers, the summers were only two months long because of teaching, and to play
seventeen games in four months was, I guess, all I could hope for, and that’s the reason I
suspected maybe they had another plan for me. 14:42
Interviewer: “Aside from that game toward the end of that first season when you
kind of got in there and played the whole game and made a couple double plays,
were there other games when you were out there playing, that stand out in your
memory?”
Well, I was out there practicing certainly as hard as the rest of them and learning all the
tricks and everything they were doing. I might have been called in for a pinch hitter or
something of that sort, but no, whether you were home or you were on the road, you had
to get there hours before the game started and of course I did the same routines all the
other girls did as though I was going into the game, but most of the games I spent on the
bench.
12
�Interviewer: “All right, who did you have managing you when you were going
around on the tour?”
Schrall, Leo Schrall that was his name, yeah, and we had a good team and there are some
very famous girls that played. 15:42 Now, Twila Shively, and we had—let’s see, who
were some of the others, these manes are—Terry Donahue, who was well known and
Kate Vonderau, who was a catcher. That one game I played before I was sent out, and
the reason I thought I was going to stay—I was playing out in the field and there was a
long low fly that I had to run and reach down to catch and I just saw the runner starting in
from third, so I just heaved it toward the catcher. We’re taught to bounce it in if you’re
coming from center field and one bounce if you’re coming from right field, but I just
heaved it and it got to the catcher on the fly and she tagged the runner coming in, so it
was a double out. I thought, “boy, I got it now”, and the next day I end up in Rockford,
so it’s a business. 16:30
Interviewer: “As you were traveling around, what kind of reception did you get
when you went to these little towns in the south?”
Oh, everybody just loved it and we had big crowds. The biggest crowd I every played
before in the baseball was ten thousand they were giving away—the girls all got a
suitcase and they were giving away an automobile, so when they had specialties and
things like that, the crowds were bigger. Everybody would stand outside the locker room
and wait for the girls to shower and then they would sign autographs, so it was exciting
and you begin to think you have some importance in this world.
Interviewer: “Were there any particular places that you went that kind of stand out
in your memory or do they all just run together?”
13
�No, they probably did at the time, but as I look back sixty years ago, I can’t remember
anything special except that it was just great. Of all the things I’ve done, the college
degrees and the teaching and getting married and having children and all of that, I recall
that the baseball was the thing that I remember the most and enjoyed the most of all the
things I’ve done in my life. 17:44 In eighty-seven years you do a lot of living.
Interviewer: “What is it about is it about the baseball, do you think, that makes it
particularly distinctive and makes it stand out?”
Made it stand out?
Interviewer: “Yes”
Probably—we played softball on the playground and I just knew since I was a kid—I
remember I use to play in the second grade, at recess we would play and at a high school
reunion one time a man said to me, “when you were in the second grade everyone wanted
you on their team”, because not too many girls played, just the boys, and they knew that I
could play some, so they enjoyed that and I enjoyed that also. I just always played
softball and we had some quite good teams in softball, we really did.
Interviewer: “What did you think of the “A League of Their Own” movie? What
was your impression of it?” 18:41
Well, I thought it was very good. Of course, it was an entertainment feature of course,
the parts with Tom Hanks and some of the other things. I don’t remember any girl that I
knew that had a husband who was killed in the war or anything of that sort because they
were still pretty young and there were not very many girls that had mates or anything at
that time, but you just get involved, you don’t have time to do anything else. It was fun
to go on the road because you would get up and have breakfast and you would go to a
14
�movie every afternoon or you would go shopping and then there would be practice and
then there would be the ball game. When you were home you had more things that you
could do and it just became like a sorority. We’re all sisters in the same thing, but we all
admired it. The pitchers did well, they usually made about a hundred and five dollars and
I made fifty-four dollars a week and that was my best salary, but that’s pretty good for
sitting on a bench. 19:47
Interviewer: “Do you think you changed much or grew much because of that
experience? Did that add something to your life or was it just a really good
experience?”
Well, I think so, it enlarged my field of acquaintances and you become quite close
because you’re definitely into it in depth. You don’t just play around like amateur ball.
Your money depended on it and you were competitive in other words and you wanted to
play. In softball, as amateurs, we use to play men’s teams and we got a kick out of trying
to beat the men’s teams, but in baseball you just wanted to make the team and play.
They had more players and of course they couldn’t put them all in and they had several
pitchers just like they have in ball today, so I enjoyed that. As a matter of fact, when I
married my husband was a professional ball player and he AAA ball for the Chicago
Cubs, so I continued liking baseball. 20:51
Interviewer: “As you were going through your career teaching and so forth after
you were out of the league, did you tell people that you played professional ball?”
No I didn’t, I just got busy teaching school and doing the things I had to do teaching
school because it was an era of my like that was over with just as the navy was, just as
the college was, and so forth. Actually it was the making of the movie that brought us all
15
�back to life again really. Before that we—it was it and it was over and it was done and
when I read through a lot of the biographies of the girls, they got different jobs, went on
doing their other jobs and the movie came out and all of a sudden we became pioneers.
Interviewer: “But you didn’t see yourselves as pioneers when you were doing it?”
Oh, no not at all, and in fact for the twenty-five years I was teaching after that until I
found out they had reunions every year and I started coming back. I didn’t know any
more about it, so I think that was a good thing, it makes you feel like you are part of a
sorority, part of a group and it was the relationships between the players, team work.
22:00
Interviewer: “That’s something that comes up very consistently when we talk to
people. It’s a hard thing to get people to talk about individuals sometimes because
everybody is the group.”
We pretty much liked everybody and everybody liked each other and we cooperated in
the things that we did and had a good time. Faye Dancer was on our team and she was
well known as liking life, but we didn’t do some of the things—well, you know a lot of
times they would do what—Faye liked to put Limburger cheese on the doorknobs so you
couldn’t turn the door and go in and playing pranks, but kids do that. Between fifteen
and twenty-five you’re still a kid and you’re not under your parents’ authority, so you do
what you have fun with. 22:49
Interviewer: “So, what have I left out? You have done a very good job and I
anticipated multiple questions in the process, so you were very helpful.
Thank you, thank you, I didn’t want to say too much and like I say, I wasn’t one of the
top players, but I was lucky to have lasted as long as I did and I had other conflicts with
16
�school and all of that, but over the years I think I accomplished more things than many
women did. That wasn’t our thing, women were supposed to stay home and cook and I
don’t like to cook. 23:00
17
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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RHC-58_EWeiss
Title
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Weiss, Elma (Interview transcript and video), 2010
Creator
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Weiss, Elma
Description
An account of the resource
Elma Weiss was born in Columbus, Ohio in 1923. She attended Ohio State University and then enlisted in the Navy in 1943. She served in Oakland, California during the war and subsequently attended the University of California and was playing in a softball league in the area when she was recruited for the All American Girls Professional Baseball League. She played for parts of two seasons with the Peoria Redwings and Rockford Peaches, including a barnstorming tour of the south, and was a reserve outfielder. After her time in the league, she continued her education, received a doctorate and was a Professor of Physical Education at Phoenix College in Arizona.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Illinois
Women
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-08-07
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d7c8e56a947cf14c227df7c95a40a7c7.mp4
f2007af960eb8ef03eb27a4ca67fb2b5
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cfb2f77e51df20e40bcaebd46ab1d604.pdf
f4eb4baaa39ebb63af181aa15cc23b2e
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
KATE VONDERAU
Women in Baseball
Born: Fort Wayne, Indiana September 26, 1927
Resides: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 5, 2010,
Detroit, MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, March 6, 2011
Interviewer: “Kate, can you begin with a little bit of personal background to start
with? Where and when were you born?”
I was born in Fort Wayne, Indiana on September 26, 1927
Interviewer: “What did your family do for a living at that time?”
My dad was a maintenance man for the Fort Wayne public schools and my mother was a
bookkeeper, so they both worked.
Interviewer: “Were they able to keep those jobs through the thirties?”
Yes
Interviewer: “So you had enough to eat, at least, growing up. How many kids were
in the family?”
There were three of us, I had two brothers, two older brothers, so I was the youngest and
the only girl, which is an advantage you know.
Interviewer: “How did you windup getting into sports?” 14:34
My dad was always interested in sports and I started with him and we would go out and
play catch and I got interested in playing softball. I started playing softball with a sand
lot team in Fort Wayne and I started that when I was about twelve years old. I played all
through my teens with that team until the All American Girls came to town and they had
tryouts, so I tried out with them and I was able to make the team and I started playing
1
�with them in 1946. I had to wait until I graduated from high school and I started playing
with them. 15:20
Interviewer: “So did you first learn about the league in 1946 or had you heard
about it before that?”
I heard about it before that because Fort Wayne had a team and they started playing, I
think it was, about 1943, so I had known about it before 1946.
Interviewer: “Was that the team that moved from Minnesota?”
They came from Milwaukee.
Interviewer: “Milwaukee, I knew one of them did and Grand Rapids came form
someplace, so 1944 or 45 in there someplace, not 43 right away.”
Yes
Interviewer: “You’re aware of the league, you were playing organized ball, was
that a popular thing for girls to do?”
Yes it was, there were a lot of softball teams in Fort Wayne, a lot of leagues and most
girls of teenage were playing on some kind of organized softball team.
Interviewer: “What position did you normally play?” 16:17
Fist of all first baseman and then we ran out of catchers, so I started catching and that
became my position.
Interviewer: “All right, now when you were catching in softball, did you do the
things that baseball catchers will do? Do you try to call pitches or any of that kind
of thing?”
We didn’t do that too much in softball because our softball pitchers back in those days
only had one pitch—to get it over the plate, so I didn’t have to call too many pitches. I
2
�just had to catch whatever they threw at me, so I didn’t have to do that too much in that
day and age.
Interviewer: “Now, tell me about the tryout then for the league. How did that take
place?”
I don’t remember too much about that really. They had a day when they had people
come to a certain place in Fort Wayne and I don’t even remember what that place was. It
was someplace in Fort Wayne, so I didn’t have to leave the city and we had, of course,
throwing and hitting and that sort of thing and played practice games and they evaluated
us form all of that and they decided whether or not they thought we would be successful
in the league. 17:35
Interviewer: “Do you have a sense of how many girls were trying out then?”
I don’t recall—I don’t recall at all.
Interviewer: “Do you figure a few dozen or a few hundred or two?”
Oh no, not a hundred, maybe a couple dozen at the most.
Interviewer: “Were you trying out simply to get into the league or were you
actually trying out for the Fort Wayne team?”
Just to get into the league at that time, but I was then taken by the Fort Wayne team and I
played with them and I played with Fort Wayne, which is my hometown. 18:28
Interviewer: “Was that the first place you played for?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Who were some of the veteran players on that team when you joined
it?”
3
�Let’s see, Dotty Collins was on that team and Dolly Schroeder, I can’t remember too
many of the others at that time, those are the two that come to my mind immediately. I
guess they were the most prominent two.
Interviewer: “When you joined, you mentioned that you had to wait until your high
school graduation before you started to play, so you missed whatever kind of spring
training they had that year?”
No, I did go to spring training. I went to Cuba and I don’t remember what year that was
that I went to spring training in Cuba.
Interviewer: “Cuba was 1948 maybe?” 19:16
I went to Pascagoula one year and then I went to Cuba another year for spring training,
but the dates escape me, I can’t relate the dates to the places.
Interviewer: “Those we can track down, but do you remember what year was your
first season then? When did you start playing?”
1946
Interviewer: “I think Cuba was a couple years later than that, 1948 or something
like that. So, you joined the Fort Wayne team, do you remember your first game?”
No, I really don’t—I remember one of the games—I caught Dolly Collins and she had a
tremendous curve ball and I would start in one position and catch the ball and by the time
I caught it I was two feet to the right of where I started in order to catch it, so she had a
really tremendous curve ball. 20:16
Interviewer: “Now, did some of those go as passed balls or wild pitches? Would
you lose some of her pitches? As a catcher would you miss some of them?”
4
�Oh no, not too many, not too many, I could usually catch up with it somewhere along the
line.
Interviewer: “There were a number of players in the league who were sort of
notorious as base stealers. You get someone like Sophie Kurys stealing two hundred
in one season and that kind of thing.”
There was only one like that, and it was Sophie Kurys.
Interviewer: “Right, now did you get much of a chance to throw batters out?”
Oh yeah, a lot
Interviewer: “Were you good at it?”
Yeah, I was fairly good at it, and I had a pretty good arm and threw to second base on the
line pretty well. If the pitcher game me time, I could usually get it there on time. A lot of
times the pitcher didn’t give you time to do that. 21:10
Interviewer: “Were you a good hitter?”
No-- in softball I was a really good hitter. I usually got two or three hits every game, but
in baseball the ball was smaller and the pitchers had more control of the different pitcher,
so I was not a very good hitter in baseball, which was too bad, but that’s the way it goes.
Interviewer: “Were you a good defensive catcher though?”
Yes, I was that
Interviewer: “Even in this day, you can have a low batting average if you can do the
rest of the job. How long did you stay in the league?”
I was in the league about eight years, until 1953.
5
�Interviewer: “That’s a pretty good stretch there. Now at the time you joined the
league, how much of the rules and regulations was on dress and behavior? How
much of that was still in place?”
It was the dress code, having to dress in dresses each time you left the bus, that was still
in place, but the charm school was gone, I never had to do that, but we did have to follow
the dress code pretty closely and we had to know fraternization rules, we were not to
fraternize with the other teams and that sort of thing, so those types of things were still in
effect. 22:34
Interviewer: “Did they regulate things like who people could go out on dates with
or that sort of thing?”
Yeah, the chaperones watched that pretty closely.
Interviewer: “What did you think of the chaperones?”
They were very good. The chaperones we had on the teams I played for were all very
good, and I liked them a lot. We couldn’t have done without them.
Interviewer: “What about the managers?”
The managers were also ok. I played for Jimmy Foxx and he was about like he was in
the movie, but was certainly a gentleman, but he wasn’t always as sober as he could have
been, but he was always a gentleman. I played for Max Carey, I played for Bill
Wambsganns, and they were both major league ball players and they were both very
good, so I played for some good manager. I played for Leo Schrall in Peoria and he was
a teacher at one of the colleges in Peoria, I don’t remember what the name of it was.
23:46 He was a very good manager, he was interested in teaching us actually—how to
6
�do things. The others assumed that we knew everything, so he was more a teacher than
he was a coach, so it was very good to play for him.
Interviewer: “What kind of living accommodations did you have?”
When I played for Fort Wayne I lived at home, but when we were on the road, of course,
we lived in hotels and when I played with, like Muskegon, the chaperones found us
private homes to live in and the living accommodations were good. We were always
very comfortable and the chaperones made sure of that, so we were very well supervised.
They took good care of us because we were just youngsters and they watched us pretty
carefully. 24:34
Interviewer: “How much did they pay you to start?”
I would just guess, off the top of my head, sixty five dollars a week or something like
that, which was a lot of money back in those days and especially if you’re living at home
because you didn’t have any expenses. On the road, all your expenses were paid, so I
didn’t have to spend a lot of my money, but when I lived in Muskegon I had to live in
somebody else’s home and then I had some expenses. I always had plenty of money.
Interviewer: “Did you save some of that money?”
Oh yeah. And I went to school later and I went to school, and I went to school, and I went
to school.
Interviewer: “We’ll get into that a little later on here. Now, tell me about some of
the spring training experiences. You said you made the trip down to Cuba, what do
you remember about that?” 25:29
I remember that—that was at the time when Castro was up in the hills and people down
in Havana were shaking that he was going to come down there and capture the city,
7
�which I guess he did eventually. The food was not edible as far as I was concerned and I
lived on the pineapples they sold on the street corner. We were very popular with—the
games were very popular and well attended and people really appreciated the way we
played the game, so it was interesting, very interesting.
Interviewer: “Did you also recruit players in Cuba?”
Yes, we still have a few of them; well we still have one of them that’s here. Have you
interviewed her? She’s-Interviewer: “Lefty Alvarez”
Ah huh, Isabel ah huh, she’s interesting. I played with another one; her name was
Marrero, Mirtha Marrero, I think, who was a pitcher, so when they announced, before the
game they announced the battery, so when they announced the battery she was pitching,
and they and they announced Marrero and Vonderau. 26:53
Interviewer: “Where else did you go for spring training?”
Ah, Pascagoula, which was not too bad, but it was a little buggy and we lived in barracks
and the weather was very hot, I remember that. We had trouble staying out in the sun all
day long and we would get so sunburned we could hardly stand it, but otherwise it was
ok.
Interviewer: “In addition to sort of doing your training down there, did you do any
barnstorming or traveling around playing?”
Yes we did, we played there in Pascagoula and that area, and then we played games all
over, way back up to our hometowns. If it was in Muskegon, we would play games all
the way back up until we got there. 27:54 We did a lot of playing in states along the
way.
8
�Interviewer: “How long did you play in Fort Wayne?”
How long? I played with Fort Wayne several times. I would play with fort Wayne and
get traded away and get traded back, so I’d say maybe four or five years with Fort
Wayne.
Interviewer: “What was the first team you got traded to?”
Muskegon, Muskegon Lassies
Interviewer: “Did they trade you before the season or in the middle of the season?”
That, I don’t remember, I would have to look at my baseball card.
Interviewer: “Were you sorry to leave home or were you looking forward to the
adventure when you left?” 28:46
I was looking forward to being on another team. It was always an adventure. I
remember getting traded to Chicago, the Chicago Colleens, and when I got to Chicago I
had about five dollars in my pocket and I had to borrow money from one of my friends to
get where I was going and where I was supposed to be. I was a little bit short.
Interviewer: “Was it different playing in these different towns? Was Muskegon
different from Fort Wayne or Chicago, either of them?”
The game was pretty much the same. It was always different playing for a different
manager, but the game itself was not that much different.
Interviewer: “What about the surroundings and the people who came to the
games?”
That might have been a bit more different. Playing in my hometown, I think the people
were a little more hostile than they were in other towns where I wasn’t that well known.
It’s always hard to play in your own hometown. 29:48
9
�Interviewer: “They were hostile when you were playing for Fort Wayne?”
Yes, because I was from Fort Wayne and if I made a mistake, that was pretty bad news
because I was a Fort Wayne native.
Interviewer: “Did you have a lot of steady fans there?”
Oh yes, a lot of fans that came every day for every game we played and every night, so
they were the same fans day and night after night, and they heckled you night after night.
They paid to do that, so that was their privilege.
Interviewer: “What kind of people went to the games?”
Just ordinary, average, run of the mill people.
Interviewer: “Were they all ages?”
Yes, all ages
Interviewer: “Men and women?”
Yeah, yeah, and I think they were probably more—probably a little bit older because the
younger people were gone to war, so these were all people who were a little bit older than
they would have been had they been able to go to was, so they were a little bit older.
31:04
Interviewer: “In the late forties we didn’t have a was going on. You got Korea, but
that started up in 1950 though, so you got a certain amount of that there too. Are
there particular moments in your playing career that stand out? When you think
back to playing ball, what do you think of?”
Well, I think of the game itself I guess because I loved playing so much. You can stand
any kind of conditions if you like to play, so—people talk about playing in those skirts,
10
�well, we didn’t care what we played in as long as we got to play so, it was the game itself
and getting to play the game and the competition. It was just fun. 31:51
Interviewer: “What separated that game from the softball you had been playing
before?”
Well, the competition was better and a little more intense, and the game itself was a little
more difficult. The hitting was more difficult and the bases were longer and the pitching
was overhand, so the game was a little bit harder to play, but it was still just as much fun.
Interviewer: “Where else did you play? You mentioned you were in Muskegon,
you were in Chicago, and you were in Fort Wayne and Peoria. What was the team
there?”
The Peoria Red Wings
Interviewer: “Did they last only a short time?”
Oh no, they were in the—Chicago is the one that lasted only a short time, but Peoria was
–they were in the league quite a while. 32:47 They weren’t one of the original teams,
but they were one of the teams that lasted about eight years or something like that.
Interviewer: “Now when you were playing for these different teams, did any of
them make it to a championship series?”
Yeah, we did with Muskegon we went to the championship.
Interviewer: “Now, did you win?”
Ah, I think we won once with Fort Wayne and we got to the championship series in
Muskegon, but we lost the last game, but we did win once in Fort Wayne and I remember
getting a watch or something for having won the championship.
Interviewer: “Were you the regular catcher for the teams that you played for?”
11
�Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It depended on who happened to be on the team at the
same time I was, so I wasn’t always the first sting catcher, sometimes I was second.
Interviewer: “As second string catcher, did you still get to play fairly regularly?”
Oh yes 33:49
Interviewer: “You played so many games you probably had to.”
Yes
Interviewer: “How did the game change over the course of time that you were
playing? Did they do different things with the rules and the size of the ball and
things like that? How was it different at the time you ended your career than at the
time you started?”
I can’t remember that the game itself was all that much different. It was just the ball, the
size of the ball that made it a little bit faster, but the other rules of the game didn’t really
change all that much that I can recall. I just recall the smaller ball, but it was still the
same game, just a little bit faster game.
Interviewer: “Was it harder to catch in baseball than it was in softball? Was your
job harder?”
Yes, because the pitchers threw more different types of pitches and I had to call the types
of pitches that they were throwing, so it became more complicated. 34:50
Interviewer: “Did you learn the batters and that kind of thing the same way they do
these days, so you could now who hit what?”
Yeah, yeah we did that
Interviewer: “Did you have pitchers that didn’t like having you tell them what to
pitch?”
12
�No, not really, they didn’t check me off all that much, but there were some who probably
did. I had a couple pitchers that were maybe a little bit hostile, so if they threw me a low
pitch I threw the ball back to them and if they threw me a high pitch I threw the ball back
to her high, so I had to get even with her somehow.
Interviewer: “Now, as these games were going on, was there—did the managers
make much of an effort to signal to you, while you were catching, to tell you what
pitches to call?”
No, they didn’t do that too much, not unless we got into serious trouble. They didn’t do
that a whole lot. 35:53
Interviewer: ―Did they do the thing where they come out to the mound and talk to
the pitchers?”
Oh yes, they did that occasionally, just like they do in the major leagues.
Interviewer: “Why did you wind up leaving the league, why did you stop playing?”
Well, I was getting injured quite often, more often than I thought I should. I figured that
I had a few more years of my life to go and maybe I better preserve my body a little bit,
so I could live the rest of my life, and the league was about ready to fold too at that time,
so I just decided to stop. 36:34
Interviewer: “What was your last season?”
1953
Interviewer: “How could you tell the league was in trouble by then?”
Well, the attendance had dripped an awful lot and they had started the traveling leagues,
so the handwriting was on the wall and there wasn’t too much doubt that it was going to
fold pretty soon.
13
�Interviewer: “Once you made the decision then to quit, what did you do next?”
Then I went back to college and studied to be a teacher and I taught for about thirty years
after that.
Interviewer: “What level did you teach at?”
All levels, I started in elementary and I taught at junior high, high school, and then to the
university.‖
Interviewer: “What University did you teach at?”
The University of Wisconsin at Whitewater.
Interviewer: ―What were you teaching?”
Physical education, along the way and when I got to the University I was teaching—we
were training physical educators to go teach. That was basically what I was doing. 37:46
Interviewer: “As you were doing these things, teaching at these different levels, did
people know that you had played professional baseball?”
No, not really, no, not really, not until I got to the college level I guess, it never came up.
Interviewer: “When did you start teaching at the college level?”
About 1966 or something like that.
Interviewer: “But there were people who remembered something about the league
or knew that it existed?”
No, because I was teaching in the Midwest. Well, I taught in Wisconsin, but people were
not really aware of the league by that time. Of course it had died about ten years before
that and they had forgotten all about it I guess. It didn’t really come up all that much
until I guess, it was about the time of retirement was when it came up and they started
talking about it, or when the movie came out, maybe that’s when it was. 38:46
14
We
�didn’t really discuss it that much before that. It just never occurred to me, I guess, to
discuss it and I never had the opportunity to discuss it.
Interviewer: “Did you get actively involved in building up girls or women’s sports
programs?”
Yes
Interviewer: “What kinds of things did you do at these different places you
taught?”
I was coach for softball in college, we didn’t do too much at the other levels, at the high
school level, they didn’t really have competitive programs at that time, but at the college
level I coached softball, I coached volleyball I guess that’s all. Those are about the only
two things I coached.
Interviewer: “And were you still doing that when the Title IX legislation went
through and they began to expand things?”
Yeah 39:45
Interviewer: “What was your response to that when it happened? What did you
think of that?”
Well, it was fine, I—one thing I didn’t like about it was—when I coached, all the people
who came out for the sport, I taught them as much as I could as far as softball was
concerned. I let them play, so they could learn how to play, but when the title nine
started it was a different situation. You had to let the most talented people play, so you
had to be focused more on winning and that wasn’t my type of thing. I wanted to be a
teacher and teach them how to play and make sure they knew about the softball game
rather than just work with the skilled people. 40:37
15
�Interviewer: “Now, while you were actually playing in the league yourself, did you
think about how unusual this was that you were doing this, or of you yourself as
being a pioneer by going out and doing something new?”
No, I never thought about it, no, not until years and years later. When somebody told us
we were pioneers, then we thought about it, but it never occurred to us.
Interviewer: “You were doing it because they were paying you to play ball.”
Yes, and we loved playing ball. I would have played without the pay, so it didn’t make
any difference. They could have paid me half the salary and I still would have played, so
we just loved playing and it was an opportunity to play, so played and that’s all.
Interviewer: “When you look back at your career, what effect do you think it had
on you? How did it affect you, just being able to go and play for those years and
have that experience?” 41:36
I don’t really know how to answer that. I was a little bit more shy, I think, when I first
started and it got you out among people and made it easier to meet people and talk to
people and just that sort of thing. Otherwise, I don’t know what else to say about that.
Interviewer: “do you think it gave you a certain level of confidence and the ability
to go out and do things?”
Yeah
Interviewer: “When you were, say eighteen or nineteen, did you think you would
end up teaching college somewhere?”
No, it never occurred to me then, nope.
16
�Interviewer: “If you were asked to, and you probably have been asked to, to review
the movie “A League of their Own”, what would you say about it? 42:40 What
worked well? What did they get wrong?”
Well, I think it was about eighty-five percent true, what they’ve done, and I was very
pleased with it. They did a good job, but some of the scenes that they put in, I know,
were for entertainment only, and just to attract people, so they would like the film a little
bit better. It distracted from what we actually did, but I can understand why they did it. I
still enjoyed the movie a lot and I thought they did a nice job.
Interviewer: “What aspect of your experiences as a ball player do you think they
did a good job with?”
The games themselves, the coaching of the games and the relationships, like the two
sisters, and the competitive part of it, that was good and I thought the whole thing, as a
whole, was good except for—like doing the splits and ending up with a hotdog and the
manager being in the locker room, that never would have happened, and those types of
things. 43:58 Everything else, I thought was good. Some of the things they did, as far
as the chaperones, were a concern—we use to play trick on the chaperones, but I think
they went a little bit farther than they needed to go in the movie, but we did those types of
things though—it was not too far off.
Interviewer: “If you just think back again to the time you spent in the league, are
there other particular memories or stories that come back to you that you haven’t
mentioned yet?”
17
�No, I can’t really think of anything. You know, this is so long ago, fifty years ago, and a
lot of things escape me and I can’t remember things as vividly as I once did, so I can’t
think of anything else that would stand out at the moment. 45:03
Interviewer: “Well, you managed to tell us quite a bit, so thank you very much for
coming in and talking to us.”
Thank you.
18
�19
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-58_KVonderau
Title
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Vonderau, Kate (Interview transcript and video), 2010
Creator
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Vonderau, Kate
Description
An account of the resource
Kate Vonderau was born in Fort Wayne, Indiana in 1927. She grew up playing ball with her brothers. She learned about the AAGPBL when the Daisies came to Fort Wayne, and tried out for and made the team in 1946. She was a catcher, and eventually spend eight seasons in the league, playing for Peoria, Muskegon and Chicago as well as Fort Wayne. She attended college in the off season and became a teacher after her playing career, starting in elementary school, then moving on to high school and college teaching, and coached college softball and volleyball teams.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Illinois
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-08-05
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/746e90103525506d9addde930e24f34e.m4v
a05b76cf1f886a9891f0fa73ad8b22ad
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1173e9a8169c4a0b0c562cd7db651a76.pdf
dabe6d8795ce1346ac2e513491746740
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Rosemary Stevenson
Length of Interview (00:41:40)
Interviewed by: Frank Boring
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, August 30, 2008
Interviewer: “Can we begin with your name and where and when were you born?”
My name is Rosemary Stevenson; I was born on July 2, 1936 in a little town called
Stalwart, Michigan, in the Upper Peninsula.
Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like?”
I grew up on a farm and was the oldest of seven. A life I wouldn’t change, growing up on
a farm was neat because, I don’t know, you have your own built in playground with the
animals and even the chores. You grow up with a good work ethic also. 1:21
Interviewer: “Were you athletically inclined at an early age?”
Yes, the neighbor kids had twelve and we had seven so, almost every night after our
chores, we had a ball game going on in the field.
Interviewer: “So you were playing baseball very early on?”
Right.
Interviewer: “And what position did you favor when you were a young kid?”
I don’t know, we just played wherever there was a spot. We chose up teams and the
leader pointed you out and you played there, just played.
Interviewer: “What kind of equipment did you have?”
Probably a flat old glove back then and whatever bat was lying around. 2:03
Interviewer: “What was your schooling like?”
I grew up going to a one-room schoolhouse and I started there in the kinder grade and I
went through the seventh grade and I skipped the eighth grade and went into high school
in the little town of Pickford, Michigan. I graduated from there in 1954 and when I
graduated on a Thursday night, on Friday my coach brought me to Grand Rapids and on
Saturday I was playing my first professional baseball game. 2:42
Interviewer: “Oh my goodness, you jumped into this.”
I jumped in, oh yeah.
1
�Interviewer: “Let’s back up a bit then. By 1950—you said you joined in 1954? The
league had almost ended, and since 1943 there was already a league going. Did you
know anything about the women’s professional baseball league?”
I did not know about it until the spring of 1954.
Interviewer: “How come? It was a pretty big phenomenon, wasn’t it?”
Well, think maybe because I was in the Upper Peninsula and no scouts ever came up
there. I accidentally was reading a softball rulebook and in the back it said, “Women’s
Professional Baseball” and it gave a name and an address in Fort Wayne, Indiana so, I
wrote to them. 3:41
Interviewer: “Hold on a second. I know this is going to sound like a very stupid
question, but why were you interested?”
I was always interested in playing ball, but it just interested me all the more when I found
out there was women’s baseball. At that point I had been playing organized softball since
I was eleven.
Interviewer: “By organized softball, it’s similar to what we have today, just
neighborhood teams playing against other towns and things like that?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “But there was no real—the organized leagues, were they part of your
school or just community type teams, the softball?”
They were community, each little community had their own girl’s softball team and they
traveled around, usually on a Sunday afternoon and played one another. 4:47 I played in
a league that was the team that I played with was the Sault Lockettes out of Sault Ste.
Marie, Michigan and we played in a league with the Canadian teams, which was a much
faster fast pitch league and we call, “Across the river”. 5:07
Interviewer: “Did you have any—you knew that men had professional baseball?
You also knew that women couldn’t play in men’s baseball? Was there any sense
of, ”Gee, I wish that I could play professional baseball”?”
There might have been, in my heart, but it wasn’t brought forward until I read about that
there was a league.
Interviewer: “I guess you wouldn’t think about it because there was no chance of
it?”
Right.
2
�Interviewer: “So, you found this book and you read in the back of this book that
there actually was a professional league so, before you jump into it, what happened
after you saw that?”
Well, I wrote to the gentleman’s name and address, and I don’t remember his name now,
in Fort Wayne, Indiana and they sent me a letter back and said, “We are having a try out
camp in Battle Creek, Michigan”, and I believe it was the 13th, 14th and 15th of May of
1954 and, “If you are interested come on down, and if you make a team we will pay all of
your expenses”. So, I went there. 6:23
Interviewer: “How did you get there?”
By my coach, he took me down there—this gentleman was a real neat guy, he was a fullblooded Chippewa Indian and loved helping kids and fortunately he was my coach. He
took me down there and there was a tryout from Friday, Saturday and Sunday and we did
everything: run, throw, catch.
Interviewer: “I want to back up before you get into that. He brings you by car?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Give me a visual of—I remember from the movie, ‘A league of Their
Own”, when Geena Davis and her sister walk on and she suddenly sees the big
baseball league, what was your experience like when you arrive with your coach, try
to give me an idea, the visual of what you saw?”
What I saw was a lot of girls out there to try out for teams. There were a hundred and six
of us from the Midwest that had come there to try out to see if we could make a team.
Like I said, we went through all the routines, we ran, we batted, we slid, everything so
they could see how we could perform and then on Sunday they said they would post our
names. On Sunday, six of us made it. 8:00
Interviewer: “While you were there doing the tryouts, were you in any kind of a
uniform or did you wear regular clothes or what were you wearing?”
Blue Jeans and T-shirt.
Interviewer: “Most of the women were just in clothes that they could slide into base
or hit the ball or anything like that?”
Right.
Interviewer: “Did it seem to you that it was very well organized?”
Yes, it was, very much so and there were a lot of coaches and managers around there
watching all the time. They were just, I assume, like the big league was, watching for the
best talent. 8:43
Interviewer: “What did you feel that you excelled at?”
3
�My coach said, the thing that I excelled there at, was my arm. He said that when I—there
were two balls from the outfield that they hit out there and when I hit the perfect strike to
home plate, that sealed it.
Interviewer: “He drove you back?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “What was the conversation in the car like?”
Well, he was excited. They had told me right there that I was accepted by the “Grand
Rapids Chicks” and I would be getting a contract in the mail for my parents to sign.
Interviewer: “Why for your parents to sign?”
Because I was a minor.
Interviewer: “Ah, how old were you?”
Seventeen and so he was excited that I had gotten that far and was chosen to play
professional baseball. 9:31
Interviewer: “Did he know very much about the league?”
He didn’t know any more than I did.
Interviewer: ‘Ok, how did your parents react to this?”
Well, my dad was never one to really speak out about anything I did really so, he never
really said too much. My mom had pride and she came back down when my coach
brought me down to Grand Rapids, she came along, but my dad never saw me play
professional baseball. 10:05
Interviewer: “He was a farmer?”
Yea, a farmer and he worked off of the farm also.
Interviewer “So, the contract came in the mail finally?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “And how much were you paid?”
I was paid fifty dollars a week, plus expenses.
Interviewer: “So, give me an idea of the process of getting into the “Grand Rapids,
Chicks? You went to the tryouts, you made the cut of six out of 120—“
It was a hundred and six.
Interviewer: “That’s pretty amazing, you’ve got the contract, you’ve signed it,
alright, where did you go and what was the first stage of your becoming a
professional baseball player?” 10:47
4
�OK, I got the contract, my folks signed it and we sent it back and we got a letter saying to
report, it was like the Friday after I graduated, I graduated on a Thursday night in May of
1954, and I don’t remember the date, but it was like the latter part of May so, Friday we
left the Upper Peninsula, my coach, my mom and I and they had a place already set up
for us. We stayed with families that would rent us a room for five bucks, and so we went
there and first we checked into the office, the business office, and they gave us some
details etc. about what I was supposed to do, which was—I would get a uniform, come
back and pick up the uniform and then check with this address because that’s where in on
Prospect St. in Grand Rapids. Then when I had the uniform, I was to be in uniform on
Saturday morning for warm-ups and the game would be Saturday night and it would be
up to Woody English, the manager, to put me in the line-up. 12:09
Interviewer: “Now, some of these questions are going to sound stupid, but I’m
trying to get to as much detail as possible. There is already an existing “Grand
Rapids Chicks” team and they have a pitcher and a catcher and fielders and all
that, How many women were actually on the team, I know how many actually play
at a given game, but how many were actually on the team that you can recall?”
I say there were maybe fifteen on the roster. 12:33
Interviewer: “So, not everybody could play in a given game?”
Right.
Interviewer: “You’re the new kid on the block. What was your first game like?
Let me go through it, first you got the uniform? Where did you get that?”
From the business office.
Interviewer: “Ok, Did it fit?”
Yup, they ask you the size.
Interviewer: “Describe in detail the uniform. What did it look like?”
It was the—home uniforms were white with blue trim, our away uniforms were gray with
blue trim and they carried them with them, they took care of them and laundered them so
I didn’t have to take care of them as far as laundry or anything like that, but we had two
uniforms to wear. You had your cap and you had what they called your little blue
bloomers that you wore underneath. No sliding pads. 13:41
Interviewer: “You were wearing skirts.”
We were wearing skirts and they were—it was embarrassing to wear as I grew up as a
farm girl and was used to wearing blue jeans. When you put a skirt on that’s probably
knee length, you feel like you’re undressed.
5
�Interviewer: “Well, in those days—this is before the mini skirts, this is before
women wore skirts that short and here you are parading out in front of thousands of
people, I can imagine it must have been—what about the shoes, the socks, did they
come up to the knee?”
Right, they came up mid-calf and the shoes were our regular baseball spikes that we had.
14:20
Interviewer: “Were they cleats?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Ok. So, you now have your uniform and how did you get to, because
I assume your coach is now back home, how did you get to the baseball diamond?”
I was close enough to walk. I would walk to the baseball diamond.
Interviewer: “Had you met any of the other girls yet?”
Not until the first day that I got in the ballpark.
Interviewer: That’s what I want to get at now. You’re the new kid on the block,
you’re from the Upper Peninsula, a farm girl, what was the reaction of these
professional baseball players to you when you first got there?”
When I first got there I was introduced by the chaperone to all the girls and vice versa,
and you know, you seem to be accepted, again you’re the new kid on the block, but
through the course of that summer you were not really accepted by the pros so to speak
because the rookies always felt that they had the feeling that we were going to take their
job away from them. If there was a party or a get together or something, you were never
invited with them, so you were kind of a loner. 15:42
Interviewer: “Were you with other rookies?”
There was one more rookie.
Interviewer: “Did you start a relationship with that person?”
Not really, not really, I started—I actually started a relationship with—there were five
girls that had graduated that same year from local schools in Grand Rapids that came to
the games and we started kind of started jelling together. They kind of took me around
town, you know. 16:13
Interviewer: “You mentioned a chaperone, now I know what it is, but for the
record, what was the chaperone?”
6
�Dolly Hunter was out chaperone, she was a real neat lady, I mean she was like a
surrogate mother for one thing, and she also made sure that we represented the league
well in our dress, our actions and our voice, how we talked. 16:41
Interviewer: “Did you have clothing requirements, because you made mention
earlier that you felt comfortable in blue jeans and a t-shirt, were you allowed to go
out in public that way?”
No. If you were not around the ballpark, you could because nobody knew who you were,
but if you were, say for instance, an example would be if we were traveling, we traveled
by leased station wagons, Orson Coe leased them to us, if you had to stop to go to the
restroom and you were wearing shorts, you had to have a wrap around skirt or something
to put on to go out of the van or the station wagon to go to the bathroom. You couldn’t
be seen smoking in public, but you had to be dressed like a lady. You know the same
thing, if you came out of—after a game and you came out of the clubhouse, then you
better have a skirt and blouse on. You didn’t come out of there in slacks or blue jeans.
17:47
Interviewer: “What happened if you did?”
You probably would have been suspended from the games or something.
Interviewer: “So, there were penalties, and that was made clear to you?”
Yes, and how strict the penalty was—we can jump back to the—in the tryout camp we
had, there was one young lady from Wisconsin was super good, she would have made a
team anyplace, but she broke the rules, she went out on the fire escape and had a cigarette
and the next day she was on the bus home. 18:18 The rules were very strict.
Interviewer: “Did you have to go through—because I know that, in the research
that I have done, that you had a kind of a charm school?”
No, that was gone by the time I came.
Interviewer: “But, they did instruct you in terms of your behavior and made it
clear that you had to dress a certain way and you couldn’t smoke and all those sort
of things?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Let’s go right to your first day, your first actual game, do you
remember whom it was against?”
I think it was Kalamazoo.
Interviewer: “What was that experience like? You got to the ballpark, you say you
walked there, you got there—“
7
�Well, the first game, my coach and mom were still here so, I got a ride with them and
they got to see the first game I played in. We went to the park, which was South Field,
and got dressed in the clubhouse and the manager said, “I’m going to put you in the
lineup tonight, your mom and coach are here and I’m going to put you in the lineup”. I
played right field so, I honestly don’t remember if I got a hit or not. 19:34
Interviewer: “But, you must have been excited, you coach was out there and your
mom was out there and it was your first professional—you’re getting played to play
baseball?”
Yes, yes, it was exciting. A dream like you never thought was going to happen.
Interviewer: “What was the next game like? It doesn’t have to be the very next
one, but early on as you’re starting to play the first few times. You played in
seasons right?”
Yes, we played every night of the week and double headers on Sunday and at that time
there were only five teams and you would have an open day once in a while. As I got
more comfortable with the league and with the team, I dealt and I did pretty well. I don’t
know if I’m jumping ahead of your story, but I batted 223, I had three home runs for a
rookie, I don’t remember how many runs batted in or anything like that, but it seems like
it was seven I’m not exactly sure, but I felt a little more comfortable of getting to the
plate, of playing positions, mainly I was a utility outfielder and I usually played either
right or left. 20:54
Interviewer: “How good were the other teams?”
Very good, it always seemed like when we went against Fort Wayne it was a chore
because they had good players and Rockford was the same thing.
Interviewer: “That’s the “Rockford Peaches”?”
Right.
Interviewer: “They were probably the most famous.”
Right, but Fort Wayne had some real good hitters and they had some good pitchers too.
So, it was—they were all, I think, evenly balanced, so the games were good.
Interviewer: “What kind of crowds were you drawing?”
When I first got there, in the first part of the season, the crowds were really not good. I
mean—I’m guessing maybe a thousand people some times—it depends who you were
playing, but I do remember towards the end of the season, standing in the outfield in
Rockford and counting a hundred and twenty five in the stands. So, you knew something
was going on, but you didn’t know what. 21:54
8
�Interviewer: “What was the reaction of the crowds, from your own personal
perspective, not what you have read about, but from your personal perspective,
what was the reaction of the crowds to your team and the teams that you were
playing? They came there to see women’s baseball, were there hecklers? Were
people laughing?”
No, by the time that I got there, they were behind the teams, I mean they were shouting
for them, there were certain players that they were really shouting for and it was neat.
There was no heckling, no carrying on or anything like that and the kids would come
there and they would want you to sign their arm or a baseball or something so, it was
neat. 22:39
Interviewer: “Were there a lot of younger kids?”
Yes there was and there were a lot of people who would follow, if we were playing say
Kalamazoo, or maybe South Bend or any of those, they would follow the team and be
right there when we played that night.
Interviewer: “How far did you have to travel to play games? Were you basically
within a certain tri-state area?”
Midwest, just the Midwest area and I think the furthest one that I traveled to, when I was
playing, was Rockford, Illinois. We had South Bend, Rockford, Illinois, Kalamazoo,
Grand Rapids and Fort Wayne, at that time, that were still in the leagues. 23:27
Interviewer: “Did you get a chance, when you traveled to other towns, did you get a
chance so socialize with the other teams or go out and see what the town looked like,
or were you pretty much driven there, play a game, go to your hotel and come back
home?”
It all depends if we got there late at night. You might be bushed, so you want to go to
bed and didn’t feel like doing anything. I liked to get out and walk around the towns and
back then you could walk around the towns. I did meet different people there and they
weren’t the ball players, it was usually local people. 24:03
Interviewer: “Did you let them know you were a baseball player?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “And what was their reaction?”
Kind of surprised and yet some were—“Oh yeah, we know about the ball team here in
town.” It was just nice to meet and talk to the local folks.
Interviewer: ‘Was there much media coverage, from your experience playing the
games, did you see cameras, did you see people with movie cameras, Movietone
news for example was the thing of the day, you would go to the movies and there
9
�would be Movietone News and I’ve seen of course, a lot of this film footage of yours,
“There’s the diamond gals, can you hit the ball?” A kind of condescending kind of
attitude, did you ever see any of the media there?”
I never saw any.
Interviewer: “Were you interviewed by the newspapers at that time?”
Yes. Quite a few articles were written up in the newspapers and then radio—went on
radio different times. Probably three times I was interviewed in the Upper Peninsula at
the radio stations there and the local papers up there, plus the local papers here. 25:10
Interviewer: “What were some of your memorable games?”
I guess the one that really sticks out in my mind is when we were playing Fort Wayne
and I was playing center field at that time and one of the Foss girls, actually all of the
Foss girls were really big farm girls and when they hit that ball you might as well stand
next to the fence because it was going to go out. This one she hit one to the center field,
actually the right center, and I remember going up the wall to get it and saved a home
run. 25:42 That to me stood out in my career.
Interviewer: “did you get a big reaction from the crowd?”
Oh yes, It was oohs and ahs, and she didn’t get the home run.
Interviewer: “Your time out in the outfield you spent of course, fly balls are coming
out there, you’ve got balls that hit out into there. What were the most difficult ones
to field? Pop ups are obviously easy to catch, what were some of the ones that you
found—you were saying to yourself—oh, oh, there’s one of those coming at me?”
Well, sometimes it would be if it was like a line drive that missed the infield, got by the
infield, that was—it hits the ground and you don’t know where it’s going to go so, you’re
trying to out judge the ball. That would be the ones or the ones that you would lose in the
sun. 26:41
Interviewer: “Now you had a good arm so, from the outfield you could actually hit
home plate?”
I could hit home plate or I could hit it on a bounce, depending on the distance.
Interviewer: “You had mentioned earlier, since you were the rookie, there was this
sense the pros a little bit reluctant to be involved with you because you were there to
take their job or they just weren’t friendly, did that change at all during the course
of your time with the “Chicks”?”
10
�I think it changed after the league folded. I became good friends with some of the old
timers, formers and I think it has you know, it has changed somewhat now that we come
together as a group and the group is getting smaller, unfortunately and with our reunions
that we have every year, you got to know the other players a little bit better, because
you’re in the—for a week-end you’re in a hotel someplace, and you’re getting together at
mealtime and just sitting around talking. You get to know them a little bit better and I
think after the league folded, I think, at least myself, I got to know the players better.
28:04
Interviewer: “Did you actually get to talk to that Foss girl that hit that, what she
was a home run, and you caught it?”
Oh, I’m sure I did, but I don’t remember.
Interviewer: “What was your coach like?”
He was a good coach, yes. Being my first year I learned a lot from him.
Interviewer: “You know the movie, the Tom Hanks movie, the Penny Marshall
movie and I know it was an exaggeration, I know it was a movie, there was a sense
of a male coach having to coach female baseball players. Did you feel anything like
that with your coach? What was his background for example?” 28:43
He played for the Cubs, he was a shortstop for the Cubs and I didn’t feel anything like
what they portrayed in the movie, like Tom Hanks. You know, he would scream at us
once in a while, but he probably had a right to, but I never saw him go through the
shenanigans like Tom Hanks did. 29:12
Interviewer: “At the conclusion of a baseball game, at least when I was playing
baseball in little league, each of the teams would line up and you would shake their
hand, did that same thing happen to you?”
The same thing, yes.
Interviewer: “So you got a chance to see eye to eye, some of the people you played
and were up against? But again, there was no socializing afterwards though?”
They didn’t encourage socializing and going out afterwards. That again, was against the
rules. 29:48
Interviewer: “Did you ever break any of those rules?”
No, I don’t recall ever doing that.
Interviewer: “So you guys never went out for a beer party or anything like that?”
No, I’m not a beer party person.
Interviewer: “How many seasons did you play?”
The last year.
11
�Interviewer: “And that was how many months?”
It was May through September.
Interviewer: “So, now you’re getting towards the end of September, what were you
told in terms of, the season is over with and since 1943 there has been a new season
and a new season, were you told that there was going to be a new season?”
No, we had no idea that the league was going to fold other than what I said about
Rockford, less fans in the stands, there were just different things that were kind of going
on, but nobody told us anything. In December we got a letter stating that the league had
folded and there would be no more baseball for women. 30:52
Interviewer: “What were—before we get to that letter, it’s September, the season is
now over with, what were you planning to do? Go home?”
Well, I had already gone home. We were playing in the tournaments at the end of the
season and we were playing against Fort Wayne and Fort Wayne loaded their lineup. We
played one game against them and we had to play another game and Woody didn’t like it
when he found out they were stacking the line up and he pulled us out and he brought us
home, so we walked out on the tournament, so I packed up and I went back home to the
Upper Peninsula, got a job with the idea that I would be back playing ball for somebody
until I got that letter in December. 31:51
Interviewer: “What was your reaction?”
Broken hearted, I was thinking, “One year and the dream bubble’s broken so, where do
you go from there”.
Interviewer: “Were you, and I realize that you were very young, were you
anticipating a career, a full blown career as a professional baseball player?”
I guess I just thought I would play as long as—I hoped the league would be there a long
time so I guess the idea was yes, I did have that dream. 32:33
Interviewer: “Did you have alternative plans?”
No, no.
Interviewer: “At seventeen you very rarely do. So, you’re thinking that you’re
going to be playing professional baseball for the conceivable future, into you
twenties or whatever you can, and then you get the letter telling you it is over
completely. Did you ever try to find out why or what happened, or did you just
accept that it was over with?”
Well I did, this one young lady that I was good friends with in Grand Rapids, her father
was on the board and so through her I did find out the league just didn’t have any
financing. 33:10 They couldn’t afford to pay the salaries anymore so therefore, they
12
�disbanded, again the men came back from being in the war, television, people were
buying television sets and watching that instead of coming out to the ball games, and the
gas was not rationed anymore. That was another issue that we had, that it was rationed
and you only got so many gallons and so, people were getting out and doing other things
instead of going to the ball parks. And so, it just—the era had died, which is unfortunate
it happened. 33:50
Interviewer: “What did you end up doing then as a job, you’re only eighteen years
old or something, what did you decide to do for a living?”
Well, when I went back to the Upper Peninsula, I got a job in a restaurant and I decided I
wasn’t going to do that the rest of my life. So, I came back to Grand Rapids and again
through this friend and her family, I got a job at Keeler Brass and I worked there for
probably three or four months and I was allergic to the oil on the drill presses, and one of
the girls that I was playing softball with, here in Grand Rapids, said, “We got some
openings at the telephone company”, and I said, “Well, I don’t want to be a telephone
operator”, and she said, “No, you don’t have to be—I work in the office and connect the
wires in there that supply dial tone and that’s the kind of work I do”, and she said I
should go and apply so, I went down and applied and the next day I’m working at the
telephone company. 34:49 I worked there for thirty four and a half years and I retired
from there.
Interviewer: “You mentioned softball so, you went right back into playing again?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “This time for a Grand Rapids area team?”
I played for Grand Rapids Bissell and I played for Michigan Bell. I coached both teams,
I coached and played softball for fifty-two years and I played a lot of my softball in
Zeeland, Michigan, the Zeeland league out there. 35:25
Interviewer: “So, baseball still, even though you couldn’t play professional
baseball, it’s still a major part of your life.”
It is, yes.
Interviewer: “What was the appeal?”
I don’t know.
Interviewer: “I know this is a funny question, but to devote your life to a particular
sport—I understand that you’re athletic and you enjoy athletics and all, but what is
it about baseball?” 35:49
I don’t know, just the sport. You know it’s funny because the class prophesy, you know
they write it up in the year book, I was supposed to be playing basketball for the
“Redheads” out west and I never played basketball in my life, but my dad was an umpire
for baseball and we went around every Saturday afternoon where he was umpiring and he
13
�actually coached baseball teams, the men’s baseball teams. I had two uncles that were
pitchers so, it’s in the family you know, and my siblings are the same way, they have all
played in the sport. I love working with young kids when it comes to softball and I was
varsity softball coach for Muskegon Catholic Central for two years and I don’t know, it’s
just there. 36:40
Interviewer: “I think you answered it. How do you think your experience, even
though it was very short, how did that experience change your life, or did it change
your life or have some kind of an effect on your life? You obviously went back into
baseball again and you‘ve tried to instill in young people your love for the game, but
that one season, did it have any effect on you in terms of your life?”
Well, probably coming from a small community, it probably allowed me to reach out and
broaden my circle of friends. 37:24
Interviewer: “So, being from a smaller community, you went out into the world so
to speak. Were you very shy as a child?”
No.
Interviewer: “So, you didn’t have any problem getting into that?”
No.
Interviewer: “What do you say to young girls today about your experience? I
imagine a lot of these girls playing ball may not even know—I’m amazed at the
number of college students that I talk to that had no idea there was women’s
professional baseball. Do you find that there’s—the younger people you talk to, are
they aware of what you did and the fact that there was a professional league?”
A lot of them are not. I go around with a friend of mine who played pro ball with
Kalamazoo, we go around and talk to schools and quite often the teacher will have them
watch the movie, “A League of Their Own”, so they can ask us questions and they’re in
awe as much as their parent because their parents haven’t seen it and they didn’t know
there was women’s baseball. So, there are still people out there who are not aware that
we’re even around. People say, “Why didn’t you ever talk about it before?” But, nobody
listened because they thought we were playing softball. 38:53
Interviewer: “Well, The Library of Congress is interested so, as of this particular
interview and the ones we’re going to do with your fellow ball players, I think it’s an
important part of American history and I am very, very pleased that we got a
chance to sit down and talk. 39:10 I have a couple more questions for you though,
This is kind of a difficult one to answer because it’s going to require you to really
give some thought to—do you think the experience of women’s professional baseball
had an effect on the way that women today, and even right after you, the
opportunities that were opened up as people saw a woman get up and hit a home
run or to slide into a base and have a crowd go nuts, just like a men’s team. Do you
14
�think that the women’s professional baseball league had any affect on the
progression, if you will, of the opportunity for women?” 40:02
I think we did. I do believe that we opened the door for women in sports. We didn’t
know it at the time, but I honestly think that was the beginning.
Interviewer: ‘What about things like women having more opportunity to go beyond
being a nurse, being a teacher, being a homemaker, do you think the fact that they
saw baseball, and you maybe didn’t even think about it at the time, I’m asking you
to think about it now, the fact that people saw women doing something that a man
could do might of opened up some opportunities for—somebody might say the don’t
want to be a baseball player, maybe I’ll be a basketball player, or maybe I’ll be this
or I’ll be that?” 40:47
I believe it also opened the door for them, it allowed the young ladies follow their
dreams, whatever their dream was.
Interviewer: “I couldn’t have asked for a better ending right there. That’s just
wonderful, just wonderful. Are there any other things that you can think of that
you would like to say—something that happened in a game or just a commentary
that you have before we close?”
I just thank god that I had the ability and the opportunity to play professional baseball.
Interviewer: “Rosemary, it’s been a real delight, thank you so much.” 41:26
Thank you.
15
�16
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
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RHC-58
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application/pdf
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eng
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2017-10-02
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
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RHC-58_RStevenson
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Stevenson, Rosemary (Interview transcript and video), 2008
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Stevenson, Rosemary
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Rosemary Stevenson was born on July 2, 1936 in Stalwart in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. Growing up she loved to play baseball with the neighborhood kids. Before entering the All American Girls Professional Baseball League she played for the Sault Lockettes. She first heard about the All American Girls from a baseball scouting book and then tried out in Battle Creek in summer 1954. After tryouts she signed with the Grand Rapids Chicks and played both left and right field. One of her career highlights during the 1954 season was saving a home run against Fort Wayne Daisies.
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Boring, Frank (Interviewer)
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Michigan
Women
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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2008-06-10
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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video/mp4
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/53d6e32a248b7e8a9884fc4f1e9440b7.m4v
710fe2fb8c2154f3c611673a90bb5058
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dff524aad3ae2e0954db52e451b3ec72.pdf
9c9a51bef94866f5aa8b9501dfbaad90
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Helen “Gig” Smith
Length of Interview: (01:02:00)
Transcribed by: Sean Duffie, March 1, 2010
Interviewer: We’re talking today with Helen Smith of Richmond, Virginia
Gig Smith:
Gig
Interviewer: Everyone called you Gig, so, okay. She’s a veteran of the Women’s
Army Corps from the Second World War, as well as a player for the
All American Girls Professional Baseball League, and this interview is
going to cover both of these, because both fall under the privy of the
Library of Congress Veterens history project. The Interviewer is
James Smither, of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History
Project. Now, Gig, can you start by telling us a little bit about your
own background, to begin with: where and when were you born?
Gig Smith:
I was born January the 5th, 1922, and I lived in Virginia, Richmond. I think
I was interest in sports since the day I was born.
Interviewer: Do you remember how early you started playing baseball, or softball?
Gig Smith:
Yes, when I was thirteen. And I played for Lucky Strike. (1:00) They
didn’t know when I was playing, they didn’t know how old I was, and
when they found out how old I was, they let me go. Then I went joined
another team.
Interviewer: You said you were playing for Lucky Strike, the cigarette brand. Now,
did the tobacco companies sponsor teams?
Gig Smith:
Well, they sponsored their own players, not outsiders
Interviewer: Now how did you get to be on one of those teams?
Gig Smith:
Well, everybody went to the playground in those days, and that’s where it
really started.
Interviewer: Were you playing baseball or were you playing softball?
Gig Smith:
Softball, fast pitch.
�Interviewer: Okay, and fast pitch softball, was that overhand or underhand?
Gig Smith:
Under. A little bit of side arm.
Interviewer: Now, what position did you normally play?
Gig Smith:
3rd base
Interviewer: How good was your throwing arm?
Gig Smith:
Pretty good.
Interviewer: Now, could you hit well? (2:00)
Gig Smith:
Yes, I was fourth, always fourth hitter.
Interviewer: Let’s back up a little bit here. Tell me, what did your family do for a
living in those days?
Gig Smith:
My mother was a nurse before she became married, and my father worked
for the city, and he was a CPA. He worked at city hall.
Interviewer: That sounds like a fairly secure job, so he could keep that during that
depression?
Gig Smith:
Mmhmm. He helped to support other people in the family, when they lost
their jobs. We doubled up., which everybody did in those days.
Interviewer: Did you finish high school?
Gig Smith:
Yes, and I received the athletic trophy, Most Athletic, when I graduated.
That was a graduating class of over 500, so that was guess that was pretty
good. (3:00)
Interviewer: So what other sports did you play besides softball?
Gig Smith:
Everything that they let me get into. I majored in four sports in high
school
Interviewer: And what were the other sports?
Gig Smith:
Track, tennis, field hockey and basketball
Interviewer: These days, girls have a lot of opportunities for sports, but you were
doing pretty much what was available to you at the time.
�Gig Smith:
That was everything that was there. Nowadays they concentrate on one
sport. I did them all.
Interviewer: Well, how were you able to fit all of them in?
Gig Smith:
Well, they were after school.
Interviewer: They had them on different days?
Gig Smith:
And different seasons
Interviewer: In what year did you graduate from high school?
Gig Smith:
1940. (4:00)
Interviewer: Then what did you do once you finished school?
Gig Smith:
I worked for a photo finishing place until I heard that Pearl Harbor
announced on the radio. Then I went back to the kitchen where my mother
was, and I said, they bombed Pearl Harbor. And my brother was already in
the navy. And I said I wished that they had something for women to do.
I’d love to go in. And two months after that, they started the auxiliary
corps, and two months after that, it became the army.
Interviewer: Did you remember when you first heard about the auxiliary corps?
Gig Smith:
Well, that was army; all I knew was the branches of service…
Interviewer: Was it advertised or announced in the news that they were recruiting
women?
Gig Smith:
Oh, yeah.
Interviewer: How did the recruiting process work? Where did you go to sign up?
Gig Smith:
I went to the Marines first, and they didn’t want any women in the
marines, but they had to take them. (5:00) The fellow at the recruiting
station was very rude-- he kept his head down and wrote-- and I stood
there waiting. It seems like a half hour but it couldn’t have been more than
a few minutes. Then he said, what do you want? And that threw me back.
And I said, what do you mean what do I want? I’d like to know a little bit
about the Marines. He said-- still writing and still not looking up-- what do
you want to know about the Marines? And all I know is I wanted to get
out of there. I don’t remember what was said after that, and I could hardly
wait to get out of there, and I walked down those steps and down about 8
blocks to the Army recruiting station. The fellow was totally different. He
�was opposite of the rough old marine that didn’t look immaculate in his
dress, (6:00) and this was a young black fellow that stood up and
introduced himself and put his hand out when he introduced himself, and
he said, “What can I help you with?” And I said, “I’d like to know a little
bit about the Army.” And he said, “Have a seat and we’ll see what we can
do.” And I asked… I wanted to know if there’s any way of getting any
type of art work in the service. And he said, well, I’d say you’d have about
98 chances out of 100 you won’t get it because there’s very little being
done, and I thought, he’s very polite and he’s honest, and if this is the way
they ought to treat me, I’ll join. So I went home that night, and my brother
was already in the navy and my sister was with her husband—he was
stationed in New York. (7:00) I told my family, my mother wasn’t very
well at that time, but I took a chance and I said I joined the army today—
not having joined it—just to see what their reaction was going to be. And
there was dead silence and I said uh-oh, I sunk. Finally my father said,
well how do you know you’re going to like it? I said, I don’t know, but
that’s the chance I’ll have to take. And that’s all that was said, so the next
day I went back and signed up
Interviewer: When you walked into that army recruiting office, and there was a
black soldier there, were you surprised to see him there?
Gig Smith:
No.
Interviewer: Because this is still the era of segregation, and the army was
segregated.
Gig Smith:
Well, I’ve always been different in my ideas, and I was taught to handle
things like that differently by my family, thank goodness. (8:00)
Interviewer: At this point, the army itself was still segregated so they don’t
desegregate…
Gig Smith:
Well, I didn’t know.
Interviewer: And it was perfectly normal to you when you walked in and he
behaved like a good person?
Gig Smith:
Extremely polite and very immaculate in his dress, totally different from
the marine.
Interviewer: The Marine quite likely was somebody they pulled off from some
other duty some place and just stuck him there. So when you go back
to sign up then, what’s the process?
�Gig Smith:
I don’t know; that’s a little blurry. I just signed up and they told me when
I’d be leaving. There were street cars in those days, and I remember
driving to the railroad station. (9:00)
Interviewer: Where did they send you for training?
Gig Smith:
Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia
Interviewer: And where in Georgia was Fort Oglethorpe?
Gig Smith:
It’s in the northern part.
Interviewer: And what kind of facility was it? What did it look like?
Gig Smith:
Normal army barracks, wooden, nothing to brag about. We had stoves that
you had to stoke with the coal. It was rough, but I liked it.
Interviewer: About how many women were in the group you were training with?
Gig Smith:
I would say probably fifty to one hundred. I don’t remember.
Interviewer: What sort of people did they have training you or supervising you?
Gig Smith:
We had officers and then we had noncommissioned officers that handled
us.
Interviewer: Were these women or men? (10:00)
Gig Smith:
Women
Interviewer: Did you have the impression that some of these women had been in
the army a while, or were they all pretty new?
Gig Smith:
Well, we were all pretty new in those days.
Interviewer: What kind of training did they actually give you? Did they have you
marching around?
Gig Smith:
Absolutely. PT every morning. Physical training. And when we got to
hours after my basic training, I was sent to Headquarters Company on the
fort. I was part of the headquarters company, and they had various places
where we went out to do our jobs. I was assigned to publications, and I got
art work. So, that was very unusual, because he told me I probably
wouldn’t. (11:00) We made all the training aids, and we illustrated the
post newspaper, made illustrations. Publications was just one of the
services the Headquarters Company serviced.
�Interviewer: You had mentioned this before, where did your interest in art come
from?
Gig Smith:
I just always drew. I don’t know. Just like the sports.
Interviewer: So you‘d always done that. Had you taken art classes in high school?
Gig Smith:
(12:00) And after school. I didn’t think there was a chance for me to go to
college, because in those days, the boys always got the first chance to go,
and I knew I wouldn’t go. So I played in school, I really did, I played
everything. Art was everything to me, but once I got out of army, and had
a chance to go, then my grades were totally different, and I had excellent
grades then.
Interviewer: Did you just do drawing or did you do painting?
Gig Smith:
Everything. Ceramics. Everything. Anything I could get my hands on.
Interviewer: Tell me a little bit more about the training part and life on the base
here. You mentioned you did physical training. Did you have to learn
army discipline and following the rules?
Gig Smith:
Oh yeah. When I was finally settled in the Headquarters Company, every
six weeks had physical training that they tested you on, and if you got over
a certain score, you were exempt for the next six weeks. I got the high
score. (13:00) So they put me in charge of getting up in the morning to
train those ones that couldn’t even do a situp. So the next six week, I
didn’t get the high score, and I was out of there.
Interviewer: Was that by design?
Gig Smith:
Yes! Who wants to get up in the morning to train people who couldn’t do
anything?
Interviewer: At this base where you were, were there a lot of male soldiers training
too?
Gig Smith:
We had a company of male soldiers there, but these were for various jobs
on the post, and we worked with some of them, but mostly we had
women.
Interviewer: (14:00) What kind of rules did they have governing contact with male
soldiers, or anything else like that? To what extent did they keep you
separate?
�Gig Smith:
Well, they were stationed in a different part of the fort, and I really don’t
know where they were, but they came to work. They worked in
Publications, a couple of them, various jobs.
Interviewer: And did you have any supervisory responsibilities? Did you tell
anyone else what to do?
Gig Smith:
No, not at that time.
Interviewer: How long did you stay at that?
Gig Smith:
Only for the duration of the war. All the transfers were frozen. Everyone
wanted to out of Fort Oglethorpe. (15:00) And the only people who could
get you out of there was the Pentagon, which was the headquarters
company for the war. And I don’t know how I was chosen, but I was
requisitioned to go to the Pentagon. I was with all nice people, with cooks
and bakers, they’d have had me washing pots and pans the rest of my life.
Interviewer: When did they send you up to the Pentagon?
Gig Smith:
About half way through. Before I left, I went from Publications, over to
cadre. Cadre runs the headquarters company. I was in cadre for a little
while, that was when they called me to the Pentagon. I had to sit outside
for a week while they did a three-way clearance. (16:00) I don’t have past
that – because I’m joking – but they had to come to Richmond and
interview a lot of people before they let you into the office. But that was
wonderful, I was with a great great bunch of people there. We had about
200 people in that office, that were specialists in everything Japanese.
They were specialists. I don’t’ know how I got there.
Interviewer: What duties did you have there?
Gig Smith:
We had people on islands that the Japanese didn’t know about, and if the
Japanese had known about them, they would have of course beheaded
them. (17:00) But they intercepted their codes, Jap codes, as the ships
went by. They sent them to our department. Now, I did not do the
decoding, but it was within our department. It was all secret. Everything
that they sent us – little pieces of paper with information on it, where the
ships were, what they were carrying, what the weight of the ship was –
they sent to us to plot on these maps, and we determined which ones
would be bombed, which would help to shorten the war. Actually, we
were as close to the war as you could get for not being there.(18:00) It was
fascinating.
Interviewer: What kind of work did you do for them in that, if you’re not doing the
decrypting?
�Gig Smith:
We were taking the ones that they had decoded, and we plotted them out
on the maps. We had special cards – everything’s different today, such an
advancement in technology – and we took what was on those cards, and
we plotted them on the maps and we had special couriers to fly it over.
And it had to be done as it came in, it was very fast, because these ships
were moving. Sometimes we’d have to work all night to get them out.
Interviewer: Where were you living while you were working at the Pentagon?
Gig Smith:
We lived at Fort Myer. (19:00) We walked every day in a tunnel under the
highway to the Pentagon. We were not very well liked, because they made
special barracks for us. They were cinder block, and we had these dryers
that you’d pull out. We had everything. We lived 4 to a cubicle and not in
the barracks like the other girls did. Everybody in the barracks that we
lived in knew that you had to be quiet because there were people there,
you know when you worked all night you had to sleep all day or part of it,
so they did not like us. Also, we were exempt from doing KP duty, and
they did not like us at all.
Interviewer: When you say they, who are you referring to?
Gig Smith:
The other soldiers.
Interviewer: Were they male soldiers or were they women?
Gig Smith:
(20:00) Women, strictly women.
Interviewer: So there were a lot of other WACs basically on the base, but only
certain of you had the special assignment over at the Pentagon.
Gig Smith:
Yes.
Interviewer: The women you were working with, what kind of backgrounds did
they have?
Gig Smith:
Practically all of them had college educations but me. And that’s why I
don’t know how I got there.
Interviewer: When you were working with the maps, were there situations where
your abilities as an artist were helpful to you somehow?
Gig Smith:
Yes, in plotting them, and things like that.
Interviewer: That may well have a lot to do with it. They look for specialized skills
and you had some. While you were working there, did you meet any
�high-ranking people or any important ones? Did they come through
and check up on you?
Gig Smith:
(21:00) At the Pentagon? I’ll tell you a funny story. I’ve told it so many
times, you’ll probably see it in other places. I had a friend that worked in
General Marshall’s office. And she said – everything was military and sort
of sterile – in her office, she had a cute little waiting room there with a
sofa and a lamp and a chair and all kinds of little feminine touches. She
said, why don’t you come to see my office some time, if you want to see
something that’s not military? And I said, okay, when I have the chance
I’ll go. So one day I went around there and all of a sudden – well, she was
leaning up against a… I don’t know… I was sitting on the sofa facing a
door – this loud buzzer went off and she jumped to attention at that door
and I didn’t know what was going on. (22:00) All of a sudden, I knew that
was the secretary of war, Henry Stimson, and I could not move, because
you’re supposed to stand at attention when any officer comes into the
room. I could not move, so Stimson was a very small man, and he had a
colonel that looked like he would hit the ceiling… and I still couldn’t
move. So, Mr. Stimson said How do you do? as he passed. I know I said
how do you do. But as they went around the door, the big tall colonel came
back in, and I knew he was after me. I jumped to attention. (23:00) He
said, “Sergeant, don’t you know that when the Secretary of War is in the
room, you’re supposed to stand at attention?” “Yes sir, but I didn’t know
he was behind that door.” She should have told me, she was very
embarrassed about it because she could have warned me. But that was an
experience I’ll never get over. It’s funny now, but it wasn’t funny then.
He said just see that it doesn’t happen again. And I thought to myself,
man, you’re not ever going to get into this office ever again. He had gone
in to see General Marshall and I didn't know anybody was in there, she
didn't warn me.
Interviewer: While you were living at Fort Myer and were working at the
Pentagon, did you get a chance to go into Washington itself? (24:00)
Gig Smith:
We went in every once in a while, but we didn’t go regularly.
Interviewer: Did you have any spare time, and if you did, how did you spend it?
Gig Smith:
Sports: basketball, softball. I played on a team down in Oglethorpe that
went to a state tournament. I had two bases loaded and a home run.
Interviewer: Two grand slams
Gig Smith:
Yeah, grand slam, I tried to think of it.
�Interviewer: I guess, when we look ahead to the Women’s baseball league, they
didn’t hit necessarily a lot of home runs.
Gig Smith:
Well, the last three years of my playing Richmond, I had an average of
hitting a home run a game.
Interviewer: Was it easier to hit home runs in softball than it was going to be in
baseball? (25:00)
Gig Smith:
Well, I didn’t get far enough into baseball to know the difference.
Interviewer: Let’s go back to Washington. Did the Pentagon have women’s teams
that you could play on?
Gig Smith:
Yeah
Interviewer: And who would they play against?
Gig Smith:
The other forts, or… I’m not thinking.
Interviewer: The other bases and other units?
Gig Smith:
Yeah
Interviewer: Did you travel around to play those games?
Gig Smith:
Occasionally but it was all in the Washington area
Interviewer: When working at the pentagon, there’s going to be men working
along with women. (26:00)
Gig Smith:
Right
Interviewer: What kind of relationship was there in the offices? How did the men
treat the women?
Gig Smith:
I was with officers and people that were skilled, so they were a little bit
different. We were treated with respect.
Interviewer: Were there situations outside of the office or off of the base where
people treated women in the army with a little less respect?
Gig Smith:
I think so. I have no idea what it’s like today… I don’t know, I can’t
compare the two.
�Interviewer: Were there ways that you could recognize that people were a little
uncomfortable with you?
Gig Smith:
Yes, well, that’s human nature. (27:00)
Interviewer: Now when you went off the base, would you stay in uniform?
Gig Smith:
Yes, always.
Interviewer: I guess in Washington there’d be a lot of women in uniform.
Gig Smith:
Oh yeah. It would be so overcrowded. Where the mall is now, they had
barracks. It was a real busy place in those days.
Interviewer: Now, are there particular events or things that happened while you
were working in Washington that stand out in your memory?
Gig Smith:
Well, I remember when Roosevelt died. We were shocked, I was getting
to go home for the weekend – because Richmond was so close – and then
I remember when Drew Pearson of the Washington Post broke it, that we
had broken the Jap code, the office went berserk. (28:00) Because he
should have been hung. He should have really been… but they never did
any thing to him.
Interviewer: When did that happen? Was that late in the war?
Gig Smith:
It was towards the end of the war, but you could have still used the
Japanese code today if he had not put it in the post. He must have paid
someone a pretty penny to get hat information, or somebody must have
been drunk.
Interviewer: Then, do you remember when the atomic bomb got announced?
Gig Smith:
I don’t remember the particulars.
Interviewer: Of course, then there’s the announcement that the war itself is over
and the Japanese surrender.
Gig Smith:
(29:00) I never had headaches, but they wanted some of us to go to Japan
with the occupational forces. And I wanted to go very much, but I also
wanted to go to college. So I kept the headache for a week trying to decide
which I wanted to do most. And as soon as I decided that maybe I would
feel too old when I got back, the headache went away.
Interviewer: So you decided that you were not going to go then
�Gig Smith:
No, I decided to go to college, going to art school
Interviewer: Is that the first thing you did after you left the army?
Gig Smith:
I went straight to New York.
Interviewer: What school did you attend there?
Gig Smith:
I went to Pratt until… I was trying to live on 79 dollars a month, and it
was pretty rough, so I called the scout that had offered me the contract that
I had turned down to go into the service, to see if I could still get that
contract. (30:00) And that weekend, they had me flying from New York to
Chicago to meet the president of the company of the association.
Interviewer: The president of the association, Mr. Wrigley himself?
Gig Smith:
No, it was… oh dear, I know it as well as I do my name. I don’t
remember.
Interviewer: He was the president of the league?
Gig Smith:
No, I didn’t meet Mr. Wrigley, he was president of the league.
Interviewer: When did you first get approached about playing professional
baseball?
Gig Smith:
Before I went into the army, and I said no, I’m going into the service.
(31:00) Because everybody was doing something – it was a different war –
everybody was collecting things, scrap metal, everybody was doing
something, and I wanted to go in too.
Interviewer: Now, the league itself doesn’t get started until the war is going along-Gig Smith:
Yeah
Interviewer: --pretty well. If you’re joining the army in 1942, did maybe did the
league contact you not long after you joined?
Gig Smith:
No, they contacted me before I went in, and I turned that down. Then,
after I got out and needed the money – at least in the summertime -- that’s
when I joined. But then my mother became ill and my father wrote me a
very sweet letter, asking me to consider if I would come home to help him.
(32:00) So I had to transfer from Pratt to what’s now DCU, And I had to
stop playing softball, too, and baseball.
�Interviewer: Let’s see, go back then to your baseball story. You go out to Chicago,
did they try you out? What happened when you got to Chicago?
Gig Smith:
No, the scouts that they sent around, they knew what you were capable of
and those things, and I was later, in the Fast Pitch Softball Hall of Fame in
Virginia. I was one of the first people to go in. And we had a team from
Virginia that went to the first national softball tournament.
Interviewer: When was that? (33:00)
Gig Smith:
That was in Detroit, don’t ask me dates. I’m 87, please! (Laughter)
Interviewer: Was that back when you were a high school player?
Gig Smith:
Yeah
Interviewer: So you were pretty well known then.
Gig Smith:
Yeah.
Interviewer: So they thought, okay, we’re going to go get her. So what team then
did they assign you to?
Gig Smith:
Kenosha. The bus was waiting for me, because I had been in school, and
the bus was sitting on the side of the road waiting for me. They were going
to one of the teams they were going to play.
Interviewer: Do you remember what it was like to first meet the people on the team
and join the team?
Gig Smith:
I don’t know, I was just happy to be there. I don’t know, I don’t
remember. I met people easily.
Interviewer: (34:00) So you made friends quickly then?
Gig Smith:
Yeah
Interviewer: Describe a little bit of what life was like in that first season.
Gig Smith:
Well, I was a rookie, so I was lucky to get in a game, but I got in a few. It
was great, I thought it was great.
Interviewer: Now, at the point when you joined, how much were they doing in
terms of enforcing the rules for dress and conduct and all of those
things?
�Gig Smith:
We had chaperones. We were supposed to look and act and conduct
ourselves like ladies at all time, but play like men. So it was a pretty big
chore for some of us. We could not drink, smoke in public. (35:00) We
had to wear a dress or skirt at all times. And in those days, there were no
nylon hose because everything was going to war, so it was pretty funny to
look at those pictures now and see bobby socks in your shoes when you
were in a dress.
Interviewer: Do you remember any of the chaperones that you had?
Gig Smith:
They were wonderful; they were really great to us. But we played a lot of
pranks. The movie was correct in some of the things that they said, like
putting limburger cheese on the light, and when she came in – as the light
got hot – when she came in the night, she went all over the place hunting
for the smell. (36:00) Then we were passing around chocolates, and we
gave an exlax to one of the chaperones
Interviewer: Now none of this was your ideas was it?
Gig Smith:
Oh, no, you don’t think? I was so innocent.
Interviewer: Were you older than a lot of the players on the team?
Gig Smith:
Oh yes, I was.
Interviewer: But were they teaching things about how to play at their level?
Gig Smith:
Well, I was good enough to play at heir level, but the rules were different.
You played off the base. They started us off with a smaller ball and to
push the bases back a little bit, you know, until we could become
accustomed to the length and the size of the ball (37:00) But I had a
strange thing happen to me. There was a girl there the year before I got
there that had the same name as I, and she played center field. I was
always the third baseman. And when I went to spring training -- evidently
Grand Rapids wanted a center fielder – they must have thought that I was
that Helen Smith. I thought you were supposed to play where they asked
you or wanted you play. So I played center field.
Interviewer: That was your second season?
Gig Smith:
Yeah
Interviewer: So, you played in Kenosha for one year, then you played with Grand
Rapids for one year.
Gig Smith:
No… yeah, yeah.
�Interviewer: What years were those? 47-48?
Gig Smith:
46-47, I think.
Interviewer: So right after the war, essentially. (38:00) The war ends in late enough
in 1945, the baseball season is pretty well done, so the next year you
come to play
Gig Smith:
Yeah, because I was in New York going to art school.
Interviewer: And then, between the baseball seasons, then, you went back home to
Virginia and you went back to art school.
Gig Smith:
Yes, I transferred
Interviewer: Did the team accommodate your school schedule, or did the season
start late enough that you didn’t have to miss school or miss games.
Gig Smith:
No, I had to stop doing both, stop playing ball.
Interviewer: In the year that you first joined the league, you would have missed the
spring training that year, right?
Gig Smith:
Yeah
Interviewer: You were coming in after that. Now the next year, the year that you
joined Grand Rapids, did you go to spring training that year?
Gig Smith:
Yeah, we were in Florida, and then they flew us to Cuba to put on
exhibition games.
Interviewer: What was that like? (39:00)
Gig Smith:
Cuba. I was happy to be home. Just leave it as that. It was rough down
there.
Interviewer: People didn’t follow quite the same rules as they did where you came
from?
Gig Smith:
Well, we were only there to put on an exhibition game. I got awfully tired
of the Cubans following us around, singing. I was hungry for American
music.
Interviewer: Did you play against Cuban teams while you were down there? Or did
you play American teams?
�Gig Smith:
I’ve forgotten, I don’t remember. We probably played our own girls, I'd
imagine.
Interviewer: Now the league did recruit some Cuban players. Did you have any
Cubans on the teams that you played for?
Gig Smith:
No
Interviewer: (40:00) Do you remember how long they had you in Cuba? Was it like
a week or a couple weeks?
Gig Smith:
In Cuba? Just a week, couple of days, a week. Bacardi opened up their bar.
That was the longest bar I’d ever seen in my life. We had one of our
leading pitchers was not a drinker, and I wanted to go to Sloppy Joe’s –
I’d always heard about Sloppy Joe’s and I really wanted to go – and we
were going there after we ate. They took us by Bacardi’s. And this leading
pitcher, who was not a drinker, and she was so out of it, that somebody
had to take her back, and I volunteered. (41:00) And I never saw Sloppy
Joe’s.
Interviewer: So what was Sloppy Joe’s
Gig Smith:
That was where Ernest Hemingway used to hang out.
Interviewer: You said this woman was drinking, where were the Chaperones while
that was all happening?
Gig Smith:
Well, you can sneak something in a Coke, and not know it, You know? In
fact, I had my first drink when I was in basic training down at Oglethorpe.
And they knew I did not drink, and that was a funny situation. Where we
left the Non-com club, there was a long row of steps, and I was just as
happy as a lark, not knowing that I was tight. I went to go down the steps,
and my arm got caught on the rail and I slid all the way down. I went into
the barracks, and everybody was asleep, and I would go through knocking
on the double bunks and I would say “I’m drunk, I’m drunk.” (42:00) And
the next day, they caught me good, because they came through banging on
pans. But that was kind of a mean trick to play; you don't know how
people are going to react. That was my first drink. Probably my last one in
the army, too.
Interviewer: So in the time you were living in Washington, you kind of resisted
whatever offers there were to go have a drink or do this or do that.
�Gig Smith:
Yeah, well, we were a specialist field, and we did not do much going out,
Because the work that we did was so directly associated with the war, that
we didn’t do a lot of that.
Interviewer: And you had to be on call and all of that? (43:00)
Gig Smith:
Yeah.
Interviewer: Let’s go back to the spring training thing. What was the spring
training in Florida like? Was training in Florida different from
Cuba?
Gig Smith:
Well, we put on exhibition games in Cuba. In spring training in Florida,
we had a lot of drills and things like that, and played different teams.
Interviewer: One of the hallmarks of the league was that you played in skirts – and
relatively short skirts at that. Did you have problems with the base
running and fielding and things?
Gig Smith:
People that slid, they had horrible strawberries. It was ridiculous. But he
wanted us to look like women.
Interviewer: Did you do a lot of sliding, or did you just hit home runs? (44:00)
Gig Smith:
No, well, I didn’t hit any home runs there. If I was lucky to get in.
Interviewer: So you didn’t play a lot in that first season?
Gig Smith:
No, not a lot. We had a girl – we were playing in Chicago – we had one of
the leading center fielders, Pat [Kagel], and she slid into second base, and
came up screaming. Her bone was sticking through the sock. I got more of
a chance to play then.
Interviewer: Was that when you were with Grand Rapids?
Gig Smith:
Grand Rapids.
Interviewer: Did you get to play any third base with either team?
Gig Smith:
No, they didn’t know I was a third baseman. I thought you played where
they wanted you to play. I caught in the army, because nobody was stupid
enough to get back there (45:00)
Interviewer: Which position did you prefer to play?
Gig Smith:
Third base, definitely.
�Interviewer: Do you remember much about Kenosha or about Grand Rapids, the
communities you were playing in? What were the fans like in those
places?
Gig Smith:
The fans were great by the time I got there. I think the people that
preceded me had a rough time in the beginning. But when they found out
the caliber of ball that was being played… and I was amazed, because we
had some fantastic players.
Interviewer: Who were some of the best players that you played alongside?
Gig Smith:
I think Kamencheck was probably the best one. She was a first baseman
and left-hander. She could do anything. (46:00) Dottie Schroeder played
longer than anybody, but she was not the best hitter. She caught an
unbelievable ball that was hit a line drive over second base, and I don’t
know how she got to it, but she was fantastic. But Kamencheck was a
fantastic first baseman. She caught a ball that was hit so hard, she just
whirled around, and she ended up backwards when she caught that ball. I
don’t' know how she caught it either. Those were the two things that I
recall.
Interviewer: Now when you were playing, are there particular either plays that you
made or hits that you got?
Gig Smith:
No, I remember I hit a ground ball to Sophie Kurys. I was running to first
base, and the hat slid down over my eyes. I had a time with that.
Interviewer: (47:00) Did you hit the base?
Gig Smith:
I don’t know. All I remember is the hat sliding down and I couldn’t see a
thing. I was trying to push it up and run faster.
Interviewer: If it hadn’t been for your family situation back at home, would you
have stayed in the league a little bit longer?
Gig Smith:
Yes, definitely. I would have stayed in art school, too. I mean, I would
have finished at Pratt.
Interviewer: Then, after your second season playing ball, you come back home to
Virginia. Did you complete your degree down there?
Gig Smith:
Yes, at VCU. Then I taught for 31 years.
Interviewer: Where were you teaching? (48:00)
�Gig Smith:
I was teaching at Richmond Public Schools. I taught all grades, the last
eight years, I taught emotionally disturbed – not retarded – emotional
cases. I had some funny experiences there.
Interviewer: Could you tell us one of those?
Gig Smith:
Yes, I can tell you one of them I can tell you a couple of them. We had
one fella that did not like to – this was in the shop class, because I taught
art in shop – and he was working on a wooden project. He just did not
want to sand it properly, and he wanted to stain it or put some shellac to
finish it. He came to me – they had to come to be before they could the
next step – and I kept saying, because he was lazy and didn’t want to do it,
and he came back to me and he said, and this as after the third or fourth
time, he said “Mrs. Smith, I don’t care, I’m going to pay for it.” (49:00)
And I said, “Let me tell you something, Jesse. I’m a teacher that takes
pride in my teaching. If you walk out that door with a project, it’s going to
be done right." About three weeks later, or maybe a month later, a new
student came into that class. He was trying to pull the same trick that Jesse
pulled. I didn't know Jesse was behind me, and I said, “nope, it's not
right." I could hear his voice pop in, and he said, "Man, let me tell you
something, Ms. Smith takes pride in her teaching, and you’re not going to
go walking through that door with a project unless it’s done right.” I had
to cover my nose, I was laughing. I didn’t know if I’d have gotten through
to him at all. I liked those emotionally disturbed, maybe it was because I
was. (50:00)
Interviewer: I think that, even today, we still often find that classes like that, where
they can get hands on and do their own things, often students can
learn that way, if they’re not doing the conventional way. But you
must have been a pretty good teacher to get that kind of response.
Gig Smith:
I think I had more empathy for what they were going through. I had one
little girl that came in – I taught shop and art both – one little girl came
into the class. Tears were running down her eyes. She said, "I've just got to
talk to you, I've just got to talk to you." I said, well, let me get the class
started and we'll walk out in the hall." And she said, "my father kept us up
with a gun, drunk, all night.” So I think I did more good not necessarily by
teaching them art and shop, but I think I did more good in other ways.
(51:00) I think I was more successful with them, because they’d come to
me before they’d go to a counselor.
Interviewer: So they must have trusted you, or you were the person that they could
talk to.
Gig Smith:
Yeah, they knew that. And I had a little boy who was so sissy, it was just
pitiful. And they were kidding him all the time because he couldn’t throw
�a ball, or couldn’t throw like the boys threw. So one day, I asked him to
bring a softball up after school, the first thing I said, was “just throw me
the ball.” And he stepped on the wrong foot first, you know. Throwing
right… and I said, no, change. And we stayed there fifteen, twenty
minutes, until he could throw a ball. (52:00) And they didn’t kid him any
more. But they were the types of things that I think were more meaningful
to those kids than whether they could be a good artist or not.
Interviewer: During the time when you were working there, did anybody know
that you had been a professional ball player?
Gig Smith:
No, I didn’t dare tell anybody. When the movie came out, a friend of mine
knew that I had played, and she called up the newspaper and didn’t tell
me. And he called me and he said, I’d like for you to go and critique the
movie with me. And the next day, there was a full spread in the newspaper
with pictures and everything. I thought, oh dear Father, it is finally out.
(53:00) I hadn’t told anybody because softball was not looked upon like
tennis and golf, and yet it takes more strength to do those two, than it does
for sometimes to play right field and wait for a ball to come to you.
Interviewer: What did you think of the movie?
Gig Smith:
I thought it was funny, and I thought it also touched the human element. I
thought it was really good. It was really good, I liked it.
Interviewer: Were there parts of it that you thought were a little inaccurate or
Hollywood-ish?
Gig Smith:
Oh, of course. Tom Hanks urinating for ten minutes? We would have
thrown him out.
Interviewer: What sort of managers did you have during the two years that you
played?
Gig Smith:
(54:00) I had excellent managers. I had Johnny Rawlins – played for New
York – and we had good managers, we really did. We had nice
chaperones, we did. We were really restricted din what we could do.
Interviewer: What kind of living accommodations did you have while you played?
Gig Smith:
Usually, we lived in somebody’s home.
Interviewer: How did that work?
Gig Smith:
Well, I’m not going to tell you the first night I got there, because the next
day, I asked to have a new roommate. I was with Al Hallet, who was one
�of the leading pitchers at the time, and it was real good. She and Ruth
Lessing, we used to chum around together.
Interviewer:
The people who were your best friends in these teams, were they some
of the ones were older players closer to your age, or were some of
them younger. (55:00)
Gig Smith:
I never thought about age, you know?
Interviewer:
Let’s go back to life afterward again. The movie comes out, and so
forth. At what point do you start getting involved with the
organization?
Gig Smith:
I went to the first reunion in Chicago and I’ve been associated with them
ever since. That movie has opened up more doors me than you could
imagine. I’ve been to the White House twice, they wanted somebody who
had been in the service and also played in the league. They sent me to
Hawaii to make speeches at the army bases there for equal opportunities.
(56:00) They had a really nice program once a year for that type of thing,
and I was guest of honor then. I didn't see much of Hawaii but I saw the
army bases.
Interviewer:
At the time you were playing, did you have any sense that you were
sort of making history or were doing something important?
Gig Smith:
No, no. All I knew was that we were keeping baseball alive for Mr..
Wrigley, because President Roosevelt had called him and said I'm afraid
we're going to have to fold the men's league association because we need
every man that we can get. He asked one of his assistants if we would
dream up something to keep baseball alive, and he came back in a couple
of days, and said, “why don’t you start a women’s league, and treat hem
exactly the way you treat the men’s league and take them to Florida for
spring training and fly them to Cuba to put on exhibition games, and let
them come back up the east coasts all the way to their home teams just
like the men’s?" (57:00) And that was what happened. But there was
nothing equal in pay. We had to be on those hot old air-conditioned
busses. We had some great players. We had one girl who pitched two
perfect games, and when she wasn't pitching, she played third base, was
married to the coach, and had a three-year-old son.
Interviewer: That was Jean Fout.
Gig Smith:
Yeah.
Interviewer: To what extent where you aware of where the league had come from
or why they were doing it? (58:00)
�Gig Smith:
We knew why they were doing it. I’ll tell you something else that was
interesting. When I went to the Pentagon -- it wouldn’t happen today -every enlisted man that came into that unit that we were working in at the
Pentagon, was given a direct commission. They didn’t have to go to OCS.
For every woman that came in there, she was given the privilege of going
to OCS if she cared to go. That wouldn’t happen today. And I did not want
to go. I turned it down when I came out of basic training, I could have
gone then. I turned this one down because I was told that if I went to OCS
– I was told by the people in the office – if I went there would be no
chance of getting back. (59:00) I was with marvelous people. I was with
people I admired and I respected and I was doing a terrific job, a job that
really dealt directly with the war. That’s where I wanted to be, I didn’t
want to leave, so I didn’t go.
Interviewer: If you had been a man coming in, you would have been commissioned
automatically?
Gig Smith:
Yeah. Automatically. No questions about it.
Interviewer: As you look back on the whole thing now, how do you see what the
significance of the league was?
Gig Smith:
Well, it’s opened up doors – unbelievable doors – for all of us I think. As I
said, I’ve been to places I never would have gone before. (1:00:00)
Interviewer: When you meet women athletes from later generations and so forth,
what’s that like?
Gig Smith:
Awesome. What has happened for women in sports… Billie Jean King
was just given a presidential honor for her job in passing Title IX, and I
know for a fact -- I think she was given either a month or two months -she was ready to throw in the towel because she had been working for a
couple of years on that, and all of a sudden they passed that. Thank
goodness they did. You can give her full credit for that because she really
put her career on the line and used her own money to do it. She’s to be
admired. (1:01:00)
Interviewer: And she’s someone who, in turn, admires your group and all the
things you do.
Gig Smith:
I think so, I think so. She’s going to be our guest of honor, so I’m sure she
does.
�Interviewer: At this point, is there any important part of your story we’ve left out?
Is there anything else you’d like to add here into the record before we
close things out?
Gig Smith:
I’m just happy for the life I’ve had. Many times I thought it wasn’t going
to work out, but everything’s worked out according to whatever divine…
Interviewer: In general, what do you think the importance of sports – baseball and
softball – what did that mean to you? How did that help you in your
life, or what did you learn from the experience of playing?
Gig Smith:
You should have given me time to think that one through! (Laughter)
(1:02:00) It has opened up so many doors, unbelievable doors, for me. The
experience has been wonderful, and it’s still wonderful. I just wish I had
about 20 more years to live.
Interviewer: Well, I can tell you that you do have a wonderful story and you’ve
done a wonderful job of telling it to us.
Gig Smith:
Thank you.
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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RHC-58_HSmith
Title
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Smith, Helen "Gig" (Interview transcript and video), 2009
Creator
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Smith, Helen
Description
An account of the resource
Helen "Gig" Smith was born on January 5, 1922 in Richmond, Virginia. She began playing softball at the age of 13. She joined the Women's Army Corps after Pearl Harbor and later was attached on special assignment to the Pentagon to decrypt Japanese codes. In 1947, she joined the AAGPBL's Kenosha Comets and then in 1948 played for the Grand Rapids Chicks. During her time in the league she played the infield. In 1948, she left the league to pursue teaching art in Virginia.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Women
Language
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eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2009-09-26
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7c2b7ef52968bdc5639a8cefe3b88dd5.m4v
801928cc9c04f1b5b10aea3ffc829529
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c8b1740876438254838419adac0900ff.pdf
b6093bbd79151fdf0ec188f12ab9dda8
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Earlene Risinger
Length of Interview: (00:57:00)
Interviewed by: Frank Boring
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer August 19, 2008
Resides: Grand Rapids, MI Deceased: July 29, 2008
Interviewer: “If we can begin with your name and where and when were you
born?”
My name is Earlene V. Risinger and I was born in Hess, Oklahoma, which is hardly on
the map ever, on March 20, 1927.
Interviewer: “What were your parents’ occupations? Did you live on a farm?”
We just lived in the country and we worked for farmers, they did. I can remember way
back even, my mother and my dad lived in a big tent one time and they would pick cotton
and do anything to make a few bucks to feed their family. 1:18 I was the first born and
five or six years later I had my first brother and on down. I have three brothers.
Interviewer: “Three brothers and you. What was your early childhood like?”
Lonesome, and you didn’t know what you were going to do, but we made it up by
playing games, Annie Over and all that stuff at my grandfather’s place. It was just –you
just made your own—somebody asked me one time, “What did you do for fun down
there?” I said, “We drowned out crickets”. That’s the truth, there were big crickets and
we would fish with them. 2:02
Interviewer: “You eventually were in a house?”
Yes, we lived in a house. It seems like there were a lot of empty—they were really
shacks that we lived in. I can remember during the storm, you know the dust storms; you
would get up some mornings and have a half-inch of dirt on your stove and everything. It
wasn’t an easy time. 2:31
Interviewer: “Who were your neighbors, or were there neighbors around you?”
Oh yeah, they were maybe a quarter of a mile away. This was way out there and the
houses were spread out, but the town of Hess at that time had two grocery stores and two
service stations and things like that and nothing is there now. We live there now. I live
back there now with my niece. 3:00
1
�Interviewer: “When did you start school?”
When? When I was six years old.
Interviewer: “So it was like kindergarten?”
There was no kindergarten then. It was first grade.
Interviewer: “What was the school like?”
It was a big brick building and it went from first grade right through the twelfth grade.
Later on they closed the Hess school and Hess and Elmer, which is another little town
over there, consolidated and during the WPA years, because my dad worked on that
project, we got a new rock school. It was made out of rock. 3:43 That was when I was
in the seventh grade. I went to the Baptist church. That was one of the schools until the
school got finished and then in the eighth grade we had this wonderful school with good
teachers and the towns had consolidated.
Interviewer: “I see. We were talking earlier about recreation. Did you have chores
that you had to do when you were younger?”
Oh gosh yes, I had to go out and try to find kindling to make the old pot belly stove in the
morning. That was my job, to get the kindling so dad could start the fire in the morning.
4:28 Many times at my grandparents’ house—sometimes, you know they all lived sort of
together, we would eat corn and that was it for supper.
Interviewer: “Where did you buy your food?”
We would go by wagon mostly into Altus, which is thirteen miles away and you would
buy your stuff for a year, I don’t mean a year, but a month because that’s a long haul,
that’s a day up there and back in a wagon with two horses pulling. 5:02
Interviewer: “Who owned the horses?”
Oh, my grandpa.
Interviewer: “Your grandpa was actually a little better off than your folks were?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Because you were family, you shared responsibilities and whatnot?”
Oh yes.
Interviewer: “What were some of the earlier games? You mentioned a couple
games, but when did baseball come into your life?”
2
�Oh, my dad played on a, what did they call it back then? A sandlot team and he and my
uncle and all of them played on Sunday afternoon. He was a first baseman and he had
me out throwing balls to him when I was six years old or five years old playing catch
with him. 5:39
Interviewer: “Did you have a glove?”
No, he had a glove, but I didn’t. My uncle Will finally bought me a glove; you know
they were not much bigger than my hand back then. He had a service station, so he
bought me my first ball glove.
Interviewer: “When your father was playing, I assume you went to church on
Sunday morning and then afterwards you had these baseball games?”
Yes, and that was up at the old schoolhouse.
Interviewer: “Where were these teams formed from?”
Just different—like Elmer would have a team and Hess would have a team and Tipton
would have a team and they would play each other. 6:18
Interviewer: “So, this was just basically recreational baseball, it wasn’t pro?”
Yes, families sitting up there in covered wagons and stuff like that.
Interviewer: “There were no benches?”
I don’t remember any. That was a long time ago when I was a kid.
Interviewer: “So, I know this is a long ways back, but what appealed to you about
baseball? What was it, when you were a child watching was it because your father
was playing?”
It was just something that I could do. Just something I could do and I had an uncle Doc
and he had two sons and they loved baseball too, in fact they went to college at OU on
scholarships because of their baseball. 7:01 Then there was Jack Shirley, a good friend
of mine and his dad saw me throwing a ball to somebody one time and then Jack and I
became good friends and we would get together and just play games. I would throw him
grounders and he would throw me grounders and then we would hit—just the two of us.
Interviewer: “Were you at all aware, I realize you were out in a very remote part of
the country, but were you at all aware of major league baseball from newspapers,
radio or anything like that?”
3
�Yea, we always had a radio, it had batteries, but we would run it at certain times. I
remember my dad hauling it out on the porch and plugging it in during the World Series.
7:45 Yes, we got to listen to that.
Interviewer: “So this is a whole group of you would gather around the radio and
listen to it and hear the roar of the crowds?”
Yep,
Interviewer: “Maybe this is where the seeds were planted.
Right.
Interviewer: “You’re tall, six foot one, how quickly did you grow when you were a
child? Did you sprout right up?”
I think so because my mother—people would see her carrying me around sometimes and
they would say, “Why are you carrying that long legged gal around?” I was all legs, and
I was only about six months old. 8:23 My dad was tall, but my mother was tall for a
woman too.
Interviewer: “When you watched your father playing baseball, did you ever think
that maybe you could play someday?”
No, I never did. Later on when I started in high school and I was warming up the catcher
or pitching batting practice for the boys or coaching first base, which I did a lot, I
thought, “I wish there was a girls team”. I’ll put this in, before when I was in the sixth
grade, I was going to school at Elmer, I was out playing with the Fancher boys and
people that I knew and we were just throwing high fly balls and stuff and then Mr. Boyer,
who was the superintendent at that time, he had a girls softball team. 9:25 He would let
me go, I couldn’t play, being in sixth grade, but he would let me go with him to play
other schools. He would put me out there, I don’t know why he did it, but he would bat
fungoes, high ones out there for me to catch. Then the highlight was, we would come
back through Altus on the bus and he would buy us a nickel ice cream cone. 9:58
Interviewer: “You did get through high school right?
Yes.
Interviewer: “Did you play during high school?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “But not on a team per se.”
No. I just played with the boys and warmed up the pitcher and pitched batting practice.
Interviewer: “That’s what I want to get into. There was a boys team for the high
school?”
4
�Oh yes. They were the South Side Red Devils. 10:18
Interviewer: “You’re a girl, how did you get in that position?”
I just did it and they were happy to have me do that. The coaches didn’t mind.
Interviewer: “I assume that a lot of people that were on the team knew you
already?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “You were a tall person and you could throw the ball. I guess what’s
interesting to me—when I was in little league, there is no way we would let a girl,
even on first base or even coach so, you had to have gained the respect of the
students.”
Yes, and the guys who played. 10:54 Ya, they respected me and if they just had a little
pick-up team or something, I would always get chosen.
Interviewer: “So you were playing on boys teams that were not part of the high
school curriculum?”
Yeah, just for fun.
Interviewer: “What did you think you wanted to do after high school?”
I didn’t have any idea. I knew I wanted to do something, but I had no idea. There was no
money for college or anything. I knew that was out of bounds and I didn’t want to do it
anyway. I could have because I was the Salutatorian, but I just didn’t know. 11:33 I
was going to go to the navy to the WAVES, but my mother wouldn’t sign for me and it is
a good thing because I probably would have flunked out or gotten homesick or
something.
Interviewer: “The war began in 1941. Do you remember Pearl Harbor, do you
remember that at all?”
Oh yeah.
Interviewer: “Tell me about your experience?”
Well, we just heard it on the radio or somebody calling maybe, a few people had
telephones back then, but not too many around Hess had telephones. The old kind that
was on the wall. 12:09
Interviewer: “How old were you?”
Well, I was born in 1927.
5
�Interviewer: “So you were old enough to recognize that this was serious?”
Yes, I know that my two uncles got drafted and went to war.
Interviewer: “I know this was a long time ago, but did you have any grasp—did you
have any idea, you’re from a very small town and this is a world war, did you have
any idea of Germany and Japan, bombings and all this?”
No. I know that papers came through the school and you would have to give reports on
them so therefore, we did get a little bit. We picked it up that way. But I didn’t realize it
like people who had radios and stuff like that. 12:56
Interviewer: “Up to that time, what was the farthest you had traveled?”
Oklahoma City, which was 100 miles away. I had to go there to meet that girls team.
Interviewer: “Let’s back up, I don’t want to jump ahead too far. How did you hear
about this girls team?”
I went down to the grocery store, the lady down there would get the day late paper and I
was reading the sports. 13:28
Interviewer: “Why did you get a day late paper?”
Because that’s the way it went back then. In Oklahoma City you could buy it that day,
but then they had to mail it down. I read in the paper where this girls team was coming to
Oklahoma City to play a charity game against each other and I thought, “Oh brother”,
and then I got a postcard and I wrote it to the editor.
Interviewer: “Where did the postcard come from?”
We must have had a penny postcard. 14:00
Interviewer: “You got a postcard to sent to them?”
Yeah. I got the postcard, a penny postcard, sent it to the guy who had written the article,
and he sent it on to Chicago and it’s a miracle that I even heard about it, much less got to
go. That’s when I went up there and just—
Interviewer: “Wait a minute, there’s a lot more to this story than that, I know that.
Alright, you had the initiative to send a postcard to the guy who wrote the article,
what did you write on there?”
I just wrote, “How do I go about getting information about this league?”
Interviewer: “He just forwarded it on to them?”
Yeah.
6
�Interviewer: “Why did they contact you?” 14:43
Probably because they needed ball players. They needed ball players.
Interviewer: “So, how did you find out that they were asking you to come out? Did
a letter come?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “So, now the letter arrives and you got to be excited about that.”
I am excited.
Interviewer: “You were at home with your parents?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Tell us about getting the letter.” 15:05
I just got the letter, was excited about it and filled it out and sent it back to them. I had
never played on any professional teams or anything, but anyway, I told them I threw
overhand and all that kind of stuff and so they said to go to Rockford, Illinois.
Interviewer: “What did your parents think about this idea?”
They were happy because they know I was unhappy doing nothing. 15:31
Interviewer: “Now, did this team offer money? Were you going to get paid for
this?”
Yeah. You had to go, and if you made the team they reimbursed you your money for
going, and if you made the team you would get sixty or seventy dollars a week. That was
a lot of money and I thought I was rich. 15:54 But, then I got to Chicago—I had to go to
the bank and borrow the money.
Interviewer: “I want to hear about that too—I found that very interesting.”
I went to the bank and Tom Thaggert, he was quite a sports guy and he was a big shot in
the bank, and he loaned me the money to go on.
Interviewer: “So, you actually sat there—you’re a young girl and you sat down
with one of the richest people in town, a banker, and told him that you had this offer
to go?”
He wanted me to go. 16:24 Then, I got to Chicago finally and went on a milk train as I
call it. I was so homesick and it took so long to get to Chicago, at least I thought, and I
turned around and I had enough money to come back home on so, then I had to go out
and pull cotton and make the money to pay Mr. Thaggert back. 16:50
7
�Interviewer: “How much did you earn pulling cotton?”
About fifty cents a hundred pounds. You had a twelve-foot sack around your shoulder
and you would empty it in the wagon and that’s what’s wrong with my back right now.
17:06 You would make maybe twelve fifty a week pulling cotton. That was seasonal,
but you had to do if you wanted a pair of shoes or—many a time I’ve worn a pair of
shoes with—you would cut out a cardboard and put in it.
Interviewer. “How long did it take to pay the bank back?”
Not to long. It wasn’t very much money back then to borrow and thing sere different.
Seventy-five bucks a week was a lot of dough back then.
Interviewer: “When you came back and had to pick all that cotton, what did you
feel like?”
I felt really let down and everything that I shouldn’t—but it was a miracle that I turned
around and came back and here’s why. They were pitching side arm and underhand and I
couldn’t do anything but pitch because I was a slow poke to China when it came to
running and I couldn’t have played any other position. 18:21 So it was a good idea that I
did turn around and come back because in 1948 then they sent me another letter and I got
to Springfield, Illinois and played for the “Springfield Sallies” that year.
Interviewer: “You could only throw overhand. You were not a very good batter or
runner so, in other words, if you went there in 1947 to try out?”
I probably wouldn’t have made the team. I would have been sent home. 18:51
Interviewer: “So, what was different about 1948?”
Well, I just wanted it and we were pitching overhand then and we had a chaperone and
Carson Bigbee was the manager and they just took me under their wing and that’s what
happened and I stayed.
Interviewer: “Well, let’s actually talk about that. You arrived there in Springfield
right?
Yes.
Interviewer: “This is a fairly good size town?”
Springfield, Illinois.
Interviewer: “Yeah, did you go by train or by bus?”
Bus, and in one day we made it from Oklahoma City. 19:34
Interviewer: “Who was there to greet you?”
8
�Nobody, I mean, they had a room for me. I went to the room and I was tired and sleepy
and I fell down and went to sleep on the bed and finally somebody came knocking at the
door and said it was time to go to the park. I went down and went out there and we got
dressed.
Interviewer: “Hold on, so you went down there and previous to this time you had
been playing in back lots and you had been playing in farm team type things. When
you first walk into the stadium, what was that like?”
Well, that was wonderful and then all these people standing around in their short skirts
and everything. They were very friendly and very nice and I was very shy back then, but
I got over that pretty fast. 20:25
Interviewer: “So, the uniform you’re talking about, what did the uniform consist
of?”
Just a thing you pull over your head and it come down here and you wore some kind of
shorts or something underneath it and you had socks that came up and everything like
that.
Interviewer: “Didn’t you have to physically tryout for that team?”
I guess not, I just started pitching because they needed pitchers. The sad part about that
was Springfield did not draw so, halfway through the season we were kind of on the bus
together all the time just finishing out the year and we were called a traveling team.
21:14
Interviewer: “So, you would get on a bus and you would go to another town and
you would play whatever team was there?”
Yes, and stay in the hotel. We lived in hotels.
Interviewer: “What was the early camaraderie like? These are all girls that were
baseball players. You played with boys before and now you’re actually with your
peers. How good were they?”
They were good. Most of them were good and if they weren’t, they weren’t there. That’s
the thrust of it. Some of them went home too, just like they would get hurt and not
return again and so on. 21:48
Interviewer: “You had been on a farm, you mentioned before how you lived mainly
in overalls, didn’t wear shorts or anything like that. What was your reaction to
these short little uniforms?”
9
�Well, I was embarrassed when I first had to go out and pitch in front of them, but you got
used to it because everybody else did too and so, it didn’t bother me after a few times.
22:17
Interviewer: “Your first few games, how did you feel about being out there actually
in a uniform, in a stadium, that’s a big jump?”
Kind of scary. Scary, and all I knew, I hadn’t had any training you know and
everything—this was in 1948. No training and I just threw the ball jut threw it and I
could throw it hard. 22:41
Somebody asked me once what my best pitch was and I said “high and tight”, but
anyway in the winter of 1949, we went on this Central South America tour and they
asked me to go and I accepted and that was another scary thing, getting on another train
somewhere in Texas and we went to New Orleans and then ended up in Guatemala
meeting a bunch of kids from Miami, a whole plane load from Miami. 23:21 Then we
all got together and they called them the “Cubanas” and the “Americanas”. I remember
pitching in the Panama Canal [Zone] and we stayed in a barracks there.
Interviewer: “Military barracks?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “What was your reaction to coming to a foreign country?”
Scary, everything was scary, but you know, the kids were so nice that they just took you
right in and so, there were three or four girls that were going to play and Johnny
Rawlings was our manager and he was an ex-baseball player, Johnny Rawlings, so was
Carson Biggby, they were all ex-players in the big leagues. He taught me more about
pitching than anybody else ever had. 24:32 I had gotten allocated to his team so
therefore, his kids that were playing for him took me in and everything worked out just
fine.
Interviewer: “These were women from all different teams and this was formed to
play in a foreign country?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “So, it wasn’t the “Peaches’ or it wasn’t—it was almost like an all star
team?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “So, he took the time to teach you how to pitch better, is that right?
So you were basically just throwing the ball across the plate?”
Yes, trying to.
Interviewer: “What did he teach you?”
10
�Well, when you got two strikes on them, waste a pitch or two, and things like that. I
never could throw a curve ball though, never, but my pitches would go in and dance in
like that and I don’t know what they call those now days, but they got a name now days.
25:29
Interviewer: “Did you feel like you were getting better as a pitcher because of
that?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Your confidence rose. What about your batting?”
Oh, they always called on me to bunt mostly. Move them along.
Interviewer: “That’s exactly what they did with me.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “You have long legs, you must have been a good runner?”
Heck no, heck no, one time I did get a hold of a ball and it hit out to the fence there in
Grand Haven and I was running around the bases and another time the accountant for our
league had his little boy there at a game in Grand Rapids here, and he looked at his daddy
and he said, “Why don’t she run daddy?” In the paper the next day it said, “Here she was
being staggered into third”. I was strictly a pitcher and that was it. 26:21
Interviewer: “Your experience in South America, did you have a chance to get out
to the city and look around?”
Oh yeah, poor countries, Managua, Nicaragua, and the Panama Canal and Guatemala and
all those.
Interviewer: “Now you say poor, but you were poor?”
Yeah, I mean, but their meat hung out on the street and you know, all that kind of stuff,
but it was a very good experience. We were invited to General Somoza’s big palace and
all that kind of stuff. 26:56
Interviewer: “Was there a lot of newspaper coverage? Were there newspaper
people around?”
Yes, I know, one time before I started playing, they went to Cuba for spring training and
they were very, very well received there.
Interviewer: “This is pre-Castro of course.”
Yes.
11
�Interviewer: “You mentioned that the original team you played with, they were not
drawing the audiences, so you were playing out on these traveling tours and then
you got the opportunity to go to South America, when that ended then where did
you go?”
I just came back home and went to spring training. 27:41
Interviewer: “Spring training for what?”
The Grand Rapids Chicks.
Interviewer: “Ah, you didn’t give us all that information. I know what the story is,
but you need to say it. So, John was impressed with you and he was in charge of?”
The Grand Rapids Chicks and the players that he had, if he wanted to trade them off or
whatever.
Interviewer: “So, with his experience with you in South America, he decided he
wanted you to be on his team?
”
Well, I was allocated there, but he could have passed up on me, or whatever he wanted to
do, but going to Central South America was a good thing for me because of meeting him
and some of the players. 28:15
Interviewer: “What were your thoughts about going to Grand Rapids, Michigan?”
I guess I liked it. I stayed and I made a lot of friends and a lot of friends that aren’t
baseball players too.
Interviewer: “Let’s talk about—you’re back—you did go home after the South
America trip, to Oklahoma?”
Yes, and then back into West Baden, Indiana, that’s where we were having spring
training and from there back to Grand Rapids and I got assigned a room mate, with
another pitcher. 28:50
Interviewer: “I want to get into more detail about this. Did you have contracts?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “So, you had a contract that specified that you would be playing for a
certain period of time and these are your responsibilities. Was it any different in
terms of what you had to do when you were the “Chicks” as opposed to the team
you were with before? Did the “Chicks” have a better facility? Did they have better
equipment?”
12
�No, but we had rules, strict rules that we had to abide by. We had to wear skirts all the
time and we couldn’t be seen in public in shorts or anything like that and always act like
a lady. Like somebody said, they wanted us to play like men, but act like ladies.
Interviewer: “You had mentioned earlier about a chaperone and I wonder if you
could explain in detail what was the chaperone for your team?”
Well, our chaperone was Dotty Hunter and she was wonderful. She didn’t really have
any trouble with her kids. After a game you would get two hours or something and you
had to be back in your room so, most of us respected her and we were back in our room,
but a lot of chaperones would do bed checks, but she never did, but a lot of them did and
that was their job to do because we weren’t supposed to be up carousing around. 30:20
Interviewer: “So, chaperones were officially part of the team and their
responsibilities included, making sure that you followed all the rules?”
All the rules and if you skinned your knee she put methyalate on it and stuff, which they
did, they had strawberries, the gals that would slide into base would get strawberries and
that was awful.
Interviewer: “You didn’t have to do that too often.”
No, I didn’t slide. I didn’t get to slide.
Interviewer: “Did you have to go through the charm school?”
No, that was only the first year. They had quit that by the time I came in. That was in
1943. 31:00
Interviewer: “Where did you stay in Grand Rapids?”
I stayed on Delaware Street. The chaperone would go around and talk to people and two
people would stay in one room and roomed with another pitcher and we could walk down
to the ballpark from Delaware Street. 31:26
Interviewer: “So, you were in people’s homes. You would rent out a room in a
home, somebody’s home, and you would share that room with a roommate?”
Yes, with another gal.
Interviewer: “What was your schedule like during the actual season?”
We usually played double headers on Sunday and you were lucky if you ever go a day
off. We did once in a while, or a rainout or something like that. 31:50
Interviewer: “You would get up in the morning?”
13
�Sometimes we would have to go to practice in the morning about 10:00 AM and then be
back there at 4:00 PM to get ready for the game.
Interviewer: “What did you do in the meantime? I mean, you went to practice and
then you would?”
Oh, we would eat lunch and just whatever. Some of them played golf, but I didn’t.
32:18
Interviewer: “You were making pretty good money, were you saving it or sending it
back home?”
Well, I would go up to Smitter’s store in The Heights and buy my three brothers some
short sleeve shirts and send them home to them and things like that because I knew how
desperate they were.
Interviewer: “So, you were in a sense making more than your parents were making
or your brothers were making?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “That must have made you feel pretty good?”
Well, in a way, but like one gal said one time, my dad was making thirty-five dollars a
week working for the telephone company and I was making three times that much. That’s
the way it was back then. 33:02
Interviewer: “What were your first experiences with the “Grand Rapids Chicks”
and did you feel like you were welcomed in by the—you’re a rookie right? How
were your first experiences with them?”
Fine, no problem at all, I just took my turn and we had five pitchers. I just took my turn.
Interviewer: “Being six foot one, I don’t think too many people would mess with
you anyway.”
I went to school with—I went to high school with my—she’s more like a sister to me and
she would be my grandfather’s kid, and the boys would pick on her and I would have to
whop them around once in a while. They were picking on her because she couldn’t take
care of herself. 34:00
Interviewer: “You said there were five pitchers on the “Grand Rapids Chicks”.”
Yes, or at least four. At least four.
Interviewer: “So, in a given week, how many games were you playing?”
Probably seven.
14
�Interviewer: “Seven games over the course of a week and some of those are double
headers so, you got Sunday off?”
No, Sunday was a double header. It wasn’t easy, but it was a good life—riding the bus,
you know when you ride a bus you get to—everybody gets along. 34:38 Sometimes
they pull jokes on you and all that, but you didn’t care about that.
Interviewer: “This is the team players on the bus?”
Yeah, they would play canasta and gin rummy and all that stuff, or singing and we had
good times. 34:54
Interviewer: “What was your first experience playing as a pitcher after you had
this training from Rawlings, did you notice a difference in the way you were
pitching?”
Yeah, but sometimes I would go wild as a goose and that would make him so mad. One
time he came out to me and he said, “Beans, if you can’t get the ball over, bounce the
damn thing in”. So, that’s the way it was. 35:30
Interviewer: “With four to five pitchers, though, how often would you actually be
able to pitch? Were you first string?”
Yeah, and then sometimes the next pitcher, if I got wild or something, they would put
them in. They didn’t have regular-- like they do now, you pitch six innings and a reliever
comes in, we didn’t have that. I pitched a twenty-one-inning game and a twenty-twoinning game and did it all so, that’s why I get a little upset with these primadonnas as I
call them. Give them one like that and they’d charge the mound, you know. 36:06
Interviewer: “You had several quite remarkable experiences playing in the
“Chicks”, but you started in 1948, 49, 1950. This was your regular job now right?
Uh huh.
Interviewer: “What was—the season itself lasted how long?”
I forgot, but it was in May and all the way to September and then you had the playoffs.
Interviewer: “What happened during the lull period?”
You mean after the season was over?
Interviewer: “Yes.”
Well, I used to go home, but then there was a Mr. Jordan, who was a—he had a Buick
place on South Division here and he just made a job for me in the wintertime. I started
doing that in 1952 I think it was or 1951. 37:06
15
�Interviewer: “What kind of a job was that?”
Oh, answering the phone or running around here, just gave me job and I made twentyseven or thirty dollars a week to tide you over until the season started again.
Interviewer: “Why didn’t you go back home?”
There was nothing to do, nothing to do.
Interviewer: “No work?”
No work, no nothing, I sure wasn’t going to go back to pulling cotton.
Interviewer: “What would you say was your highlight season?”
Probably when we were playing for the trophy against the “Kalamazoo Lassies” in
Kalamazoo. 37:47
Interviewer: “What year was this?”
1952 [actually 1953]. It was a cold night, the bases were loaded and the manager,
Woody English, had gotten kicked out of the game.
Interviewer: “How come?”
I don’t know, I said, “It’s because he got too cold”, but he had his long pants on out there,
and so they made it a seven inning game because of the weather and it was the last game
and the bases were loaded and Sammy Samms came to the bat and I struck her out and
we won the game so, that was my highlight of my whole deal. 38:30
Interviewer: “Sammy Samms was, I understand, a very good hitter and player?”
Yes, a very good player and a good hitter. She could pitch and she could play outfield
because of her hitting.
Interviewer: “So, when she came to bat with three people on?”
Marilyn Jenkins was my catcher and you’re going to interview her next week, she just
walked out to the mound and said—first before that, “Ziggy”, Alma Ziegler was the
captain of out team and she was the coach after he got kicked out. So, with the bases
loaded she walked up to me and looking up, she was little, she said, “Can you get her out
“Beans”? I shrugged my shoulders and she left me in, but I got her out anyway and that
was a good deal. 39:15 She was a wonderful person and she’s now deceased, Alma
Ziegler. She could pitch and play second base both.
16
�Interviewer: “The Grand Rapids Chicks was actually a very successful team. What
do you attribute to the success of the “Chicks” compared to some of the other teams
that didn’t do so well?”
Well, they tried to keep all the teams equal and they would trade someone off to make it
more better, but most of the time, thank goodness I never got traded off and I guess it was
because I was a pitcher and they were in demand. They busted up the team once and
Tiny Petry, who was a shortstop, and she was wonderful with “Ziggy” playing second
and then the team kind of went down a little bit then you know, but we won a lot of
games. 40:14
Interviewer: “You got to know these women quite well right? Where did they come
from?”
The come from California, they came from Canada, they came from Kansas, Florida, all
over.
Interviewer: “This was a nationwide search for ball players and then a lot of them
ended up in Grand Rapids, Michigan because it was a team.”
A lot of them stayed on here and a lot of them are deceased that played on our team for a
long time so, I feel lucky to be alive right now. 40:51
Interviewer: “1952, you had a wonderful year, how was 1953? How were the
crowds etc?”
Well, it had fallen off a little bit, but then it had started gaining back and even in 1954 we
were gaining back, but South Bend and some of the other teams weren’t drawing at all so,
the men just got together and decided that was the end of it. Like that—we heard about
it. 41:26
Interviewer: “What kind of crowds were you getting here in Grand Rapids at the
height of it all?”
Well, there would be a thousand people; there are pictures of the people in the stands. I
think it’s down at the library. They drew really well when I first came here.
Interviewer: “How were the crowds? Were they enthusiastic? You see major
league baseball and you see fans screaming and yelling.”
Oh, ya, cheering and carrying on. We got to playing later and later and there was this
writer, what was his name? I can’t remember, but he had a little article, a thing in the
paper, and he said, “Chicks were getting sleepy”, because they were keeping then up to
late at night. 42:15
17
�Interviewer: “Early on and this was in the movie and the movie was not that
accurate, but it had some good points to it and it was a wonderful film, but
especially early on, were you harassed at all by people, being women out there?”
What the movie showed in the beginning they were, but not when I came in 1948. That
had all calmed down because they knew that we could play the game and play it right.
42:50
Interviewer: “Did you ever get a chance to play—I think this happened on
occasion, but play exhibition games with the men’s teams?”
No, not to my knowledge, one time we might have, after the season was over, played a
game with the Sullivan’s or something once. Not very often.
Interviewer: “1953, you said things were going fairly well still, were there any
indications that this might come to an end?”
Well, I think there was, but I didn’t know it and most of the players didn’t know it. We
figured, like they said, we owed Grand Rapids, owed the cleaning people that cleaned our
uniforms money and I guess in the end we might have been getting paid in cash rather
than by check. Things were getting tight because TV came in and the war was over and
there wasn’t any gas rationing. 43:54
Interviewer: “Now, there was a real financial tragedy that happened in the 1950’s
where the equipment and everything was burned up.”
That was at Bigelow Field. I still say that guy who owned us then, more or less, Jim
whatever his name was, I still say that he probably had somebody set that building on fire
and the reason I say that is because of the fact that he immediately built a motel out there
and that was hard on us because we had to get a different uniform and that wasn’t hard to
do because it was back down to six teams and they had extra uniforms and stuff, but your
glove, everything was gone. 44:54
Interviewer: “Now, you say that you got uniforms from other teams, but you’re six
feet one.”
Well ya.
Interviewer: “How did you get a uniform to fit you? Did they actually have tailors
come out?”
Well no, we could get them hemmed or whatever they needed to be.
Interviewer: “In the past, when you were with the “Grand Rapids Chicks”, you had
your own uniforms and it was all color coded right? The hat, what about these new
uniforms?”
18
�Well, in the end, I think we had the “Peoria Redwings” uniforms and we wore red then
with white, whereas in the beginning we wore blue--- gray and then the blue sox and cap.
45:40
Interviewer: “You said there were indications that something might end, but you
didn’t know and most of the players didn’t know?”
We were hoping it wouldn’t, yes.
Interviewer: “In your case, did you actually think that this was going to go on for a
career?”
I think a lot of us did, yes. We were very disappointed. Especially the ones that came in
late like I did.
Interviewer: “How did you officially find out that the league was ending?”
I think it came out in the paper, but I’m not sure.
Interviewer: “Do you recall at all what your reaction was?”
I thought, “Oh well, I have to start thinking about doing something else?” Like I told
them out there before you got there, that I’d gotten hit on the elbow and had to go get an
x-ray and I thought hmm, that might be a good thing for me to get into, and so, Dr.
Blackburn was our doctor. and he said, “Oh yes, they have programs at the hospital and
we’ll get you in”, and that’s what I did then. I got to be an x-ray technician and I did that
from 1955 to 1969 and then I decided to work for orthopedic doctors and was the
manager of the office and took casts off and all that stuff and I worked with them until I
retired in 1991. 47:13
Interviewer: “When you were an x-ray technician, were people aware that you
were in the baseball league?”
Some were and some weren’t.
Interviewer: “I’m talking about the early days, I’m not talking about now because
now people know who you are, but in those days?”
Just the one’s who had attended, if they would come in and then they would say who we
were. We got a little publicity because Marilyn got into x-ray too after me and another
gal, Betty Wanless, and somehow I ran across a picture the other day where the three of
us were in our white uniforms. We got a little publicity back then even, but we didn’t get
a lot until we had our first reunion in 1982 and then-- 47:57
Interviewer: “How was that organized?”
19
�A bat girl from South Bend and then June Peppas had a printing shop and she was a
player for Kalamazoo and she got the idea of sending me a letter and do you know the
address of somebody else? And that’s the way it went and then they got it going. There
were a few people there, historians who came to that, and three years later we had another
one and so on and so forth and we’re still having them.
Interviewer: “Now in the movie it’s very moving when Geena Davis comes to the
reunion, and of course her sister is there with a family and all that. Was it sort of
like that?”
Yes, sort of like that the first time you see them and you have to look sometimes at there
tag to see who they were, ya. 48:51
Interviewer: “There were a few people from Grand Rapids that went, right?
Marilyn went and did Rosemary go?”
I don’t remember if she went, but I bet she did.
Interviewer: “I just wondered if the “Grand Rapids Chicks” gathered together and
the “Peaches” gathered together?”
We probably did after we got there. Dolly Konwinski went and all of them went, but we
didn’t stick together, we mixed and mingled with other people. 49:24
Interviewer: “That must have been an amazing experience, I’ve been to several
reunions of the Flying Tigers and I’ve been to reunions of other WWII groups and
it’s a magical moment to be standing there and just hearing these conversations.
“Do you remember when this happened?”
Yes, and as the years go by everything gets a little more, you know what it is—the stories
get bigger, yes the stories get bigger as you have these reunions. You daydream back and
then you think about so and so who’s not there because she’s deceased and we say she’s,
“gone to the dream team in the sky, the ball team in the sky”. It was a wonderful
experience for me and made me and made my life. 50:08
Interviewer: “I just want you to comment on the movie. The thing that impressed
me about it, I’m not looking at it as a historian at all because you heard from
Gordon Olson and others that it was a Hollywood movie, but it seemed to capture
the spirit, the excitement and of course the characters were just wonderful, what did
you think of the movie?”
Well, I thought it was about 89% correct. They made the chaperones look like they were
simpletons, I thought. They were all very educated and wonderful ladies and that was
one thing I didn’t like and of course the manager never came into our space. If he had
anything to say he would talk to the chaperone and she would relate it to us. So they
Hollywooded it up a little, which is all right and it put us on the map anyway. 51:15
20
�Interviewer: “Yes, that is what I was going to say, it certainly drew attention to
what you had done and made much more interest in what you had done.”
Like Penny Marshall said, she thought it was a story that should be told because—
another highlight I had was when we went to Evansville to see them film and after it was
over, she said, “Come down here, we want to play”, and I went down and pitched to her
and after working hard all day, she wanted to have a little fun and that was kind of nice.
51:47
Interviewer: “When did you see the movie? Did you just walk into a movie theater
or did they have a special screening for you?”
They had something at the Star Theater here and the fact is, somebody made me a collage
and I gave it to the library here about it and we signed autographs and everything before
the movie even started up at the Star Theater. 52:16
Interviewer: “Did you go to the public museum when they had their exhibit?”
Oh yes, and we signed autographs and everything there too. That was really quite an
exhibit, really, that will never happen again.
Interviewer: “I got to Grand Rapids just when that was ending, but a friend of
mine had a video camera and a crew and they actually videotaped the entire inside
and they interviewed a couple of people. I didn’t see you, you didn’t get interviewed
while you were there did you?”
I got a story written about me and they took pictures and I forgot, it was one of those—
she asked me, the gal that doesn’t work there anymore asked me if I—she said they might
not get it, they wanted, but they did and there was this booklet that came out, ya. I had to
come and I know about this a little bit because they had to take pictures you know to put
a picture in the magazine. I imagine they got one down at the library. 53:25
Interviewer: “We had students from the history department actually do all the
research and we know where all the pictures are and where everything is. At some
point I will have to go down there and take a look. I want you to make some
comments now in general. The beginning of the war, after Pearl Harbor, the United
States was not in a very good position, not just us, but the British and we were losing
all over, the Japanese were taking over Asia and Germany was taking over Europe
and as the story goes, Wrigley was concerned that perhaps major league baseball
would be affected by this so, he wanted to set up this alternative, this women’s team.
54:12 I guess the question I have for you and I want you to think a little bit outside,
did you and your players, did you have any sense or a feeling that you were a part of
the war effort? Because you know “Rosie the Riveter”, you hear about that and of
course we know about the WACS and the WAVES and it is my opinion that you did
a lot, what was your perspective?”
21
�Well, we feel that helped women get to play more sports etc. by us doing that because
when I first came to Grand Rapids and stayed in the wintertime, I said, “What do the girls
get to do in high school and around”? Well, they didn’t get to do anything and I feel now
that softball is so great now, that we were stepping stones for the younger generation.
People ask, “Do you think there will ever be another team like this”? I say, “No, it would
be too much money and also, I don’t think the gals of today would follow those rules and
regulations because they are too independent now. We feel like we made our mark in
that respect. 55:35
Interviewer: “Looking back on that experience, you had a successful career
afterwards, you were a professional and made a living for yourself and helped your
family out, how do you look back on that magic period of time and the effect it had
on your life?”
Well, all I just say is that it made my life and if I could do it anybody else could do it.
Interviewer: “One other final question, how do you think it affected you as a
person, how do you think it affected you as the person you are today? More
independent perhaps?”
Integrity, I get very emotional. 56:44
Interviewer: “This will be our last question. Your doing fine, your doing
wonderful.”
That’s why I can’t go and do speeches like a lot of them do because I get too emotional.
Interviewer: “We can stop now, we can stop now and thank you very much this has
been wonderful, wonderful.” 57:00
22
�23
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-02
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-58_ERisinger
Title
A name given to the resource
Risinger, Earlene "Beans" (Interview transcript and video), 2009
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Risinger, Earlene
Description
An account of the resource
Earlene "Beans" Risinger was born in Hess, Oklahoma, in 1927. She grew up on a farm in Dust Bowl country, and played baseball from a young age with family and friends, and practiced with boys' teams in her community. She saw a newspaper article about the All American Girls Professional Baseball League, and joined the Grand Rapids Chicks in 1948. She went with the League to Spring Training in Cuba in 1948, and then on a postseason trip to Central America. She was a talented pitcher, and pitched the final game when the Chicks won the League championship in 1953, and played until the League folded after the 1954 season.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Michigan
Women
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-09-26
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/edf6ea96ce3a3b8d27b8aa8486091ae9.m4v
516fe0549183d38c91a9a8edb4954cfb
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/278bfd3f3ddb49309938f0317af82d00.pdf
4a152365e58ab35fb6c00d81193c56f3
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans’ History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Mary Pratt
Length of Interview: (00:55:55)
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
MARY PRATT, Pitcher
Women in Baseball
Born: Bridgeport Connecticut 1918
Resides:
Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project, September 27, 2009,
Milwaukee, WI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, June 11, 2010
Interviewer: “If we can begin with your name and where and when were you
born?”
My name is Mary Pratt and I was born in Bridgeport, Connecticut in 1918.
Interviewer: “Shat was your early childhood like?”
My early childhood, I would say, would be up until the time that we left Connecticut and
came up to Massachusetts because my dad had been working down in Groton,
Connecticut on the submarines and all of a sudden the war was over, so he became a
Certified Public Accountant and then came the depression, so I have been able to be a
part, in my lifetime, of going through those eras. :56 In 1926, I believe, we all came
back to where my dad was an only child up in Quincy, Massachusetts and there I went
into junior high school.
Interviewer: “Before high school, when did you first start getting involved in
sports? Was it any kind of sports or was it baseball first?”
Well, it was anything that the boys would let me join in and so I would go over, this was
down in Connecticut, I would go over into the back yard of the boys across the way who
had that familiar peach basket and they would let me shoot. It’s a thing that I will never
regret and even though I’m looking for the girls to get more leadership roles, but if it
wasn’t for the boys who gave me the opportunity and mother never said no as long as she
knew where I was she let me go right along and it was the boys, see I grew up in an era
where there were few opportunities for girls especially where I lived on the east coast of
the U.S.A. 1:57
Interviewer: “What was the appeal of baseball early on, not later, but early on?
What was the appeal of baseball?”
1
�Well, it was just the fact that—when I look back I often wonder, “Why did I just all of a
sudden start pitching and playing with the boys?” I think I maybe just had a normal way
of throwing and maybe it just came to me naturally and as a result they let me play and
that continued right on until I’m getting out of college and still playing with the boys.
2:26
Interviewer: “Now you did graduate from high school?”
I graduated from North Quincy High School, the class of 1936.
Interviewer: “What happened after that? Where were you going after that?”
After that—I always had in my mind that I wanted to go on to college and I want to
become a physical educator. As I look back now, never realizing that I was going to be a
teacher and I didn’t really realize what were the hardships that I was going to follow
through because everything that I got in my undergraduate wasn’t going to be—it would
help me a little bit, but it wasn’t going to be the thing that enabled me then to teach that
whole vast area of physical education and in the end to be working in special needs. 3:14
Interviewer: “So, what university did you decide to go to?”
I went to Boston University and Sargent College, which is a unit in the university and it
was then over in Cambridge right next to the Harvard tennis courts. It wasn’t until the
fifties that the university took Sargent and we went on to the campus on Commonwealth
Avenue. I graduated from college in 1940 and was so fortunate that in 1941 I would get
a position for eleven hundred dollars, twenty-seven fifty a week, but I thought I had the
world with a fence around it. I had gotten a permanent job. 4:02
Interviewer: “While you were in college though, you started playing ball, is that
right?”
Well, I always remained active, but see I was still going through college where there was
not any collegiate competition for girls, but we did have a wide and a broad program
where I got introduced to lacrosse, to field hockey, to the things that I had never had in
high school because in high school it was just all intramurals. 4:34
Interviewer: “Now, did you play softball in college?”
Well, I played softball in college because in 1939 I got word that Walter Brown, who
owned the Boston Garden, wanted to do something in the summer and there had never
been much going on and all of a sudden I heard that he was going to sponsor a team and
then I walked to the Boston Garden and walked out to short stop and of course I was a
“lefty” and they said to me, “you know you can’t play short stop, you’re a lefty”, so I
went home and there was a gentleman who had just come off the last boat from Ireland
and there curling was quite similar to the way we pitched softball and I was always quite
2
�determined, so I went out in the back yard and practiced with my father and pitched in the
Boston Garden in 1939, and in 1940 it was an honor to think that Walter Brown took us
down to Madison Square Garden and we played in New York. 5:32
Interviewer: “What kind of a team was that? Was it a women’s team?”
It was a women’s team and it really was not a league. Some places like New York we
heard did have leagues between New York and Connecticut, but this was just something
that Mr. Brown did. He actually made up a schedule—well, we played in a lot of
different places, but we were not playing in a regular league. 5:58
Interviewer: “In college you knew you wanted to be in physical education, beyond
that did you think in terms of being a teacher in a high school? What were your
goals at that time?”
It really wasn’t, it was just a thought that I wanted to teach physical education. I never
really knew what teaching was all about and I had to learn the hard way, but I just found
that through physical education I was indirectly teaching a child how to take care of
themselves and I hope that I was an example for them and that I wasn’t just teaching
them a lot of theory. 6:41
Interviewer: “Now, first of all you were a left hander and you were playing
shortstop and then turned into a pitcher?”
I was a lefty, a long arm they call it. Yes, because they told me that the extra step that I
would have to take to get my body in position to throw over to first would be the step that
I would lose the runner, so I took to pitching, but prior to that I had always played with
the boys on the playgrounds and so I always threw overhand, so they understood what I
was doing when I was pitching, but of course when I went to get into the All American it
was softball style pitching. 7:28
Interviewer: “We’ll get to that. Now, The Boston Olympets?”
The Olympets, the Limpets was the Boston Garden semi-pro hockey team and they had
the Boston Olympets, which was us. I played for two seasons there, 1939 and 1940.
They took the diamond and put it on a diagonal and they put a post down by first base
and as a lefty you could quite readily hit into the stands, but that would only go for a
single, but to hit it to left field was a long, long distance at the garden. 8:09
Interviewer: “You did finally graduate and got a degree, what were you thinking
you were going to do next? What were your plans once you got your degree?”
I got my bachelors degree. 1940, I just wanted to be sure I could get a position and at the
beginning I didn’t my first year, but I had taken up officiating and that filled the void a
little tiny bit and I went to one of the private schools, an academy there in Braintree and I
did their after school program. In 1941 I signed on with Quincy and continued my
officiating for fifty years because see, there were no opportunities for me to coach. 8:50
3
�Interviewer: “1941, December, do you remember where you were on Pearl Harbor
day?”
Oh that’s right, not only did thoughts come back to what is it thirty years later I go out to
the Pacific and go to where I saw where the—the boat was still down there where it was
sunk.
Interviewer: “Do you remember Pearl Harbor Day and where you were?”
I remember it and I remember people were celebrating and I say the same thing, I was so
busy working and teaching school and being wrapped up in my officiating and then
starting to get in with my alumni associations that it never appeared to me that I was
losing out on everything, I was just constantly active, mostly in elementary and then
eventually they added the junior high and eventually I left the public schools and went on
to the colleges. 9:50
Interviewer: “We’re going to back up now, 1943, I think you got an invitation of
some kind?”
Oh, I got that nice call and Ralph Wheeler, he was the schoolboy editor for the Boston
Herald and he apparently had been contacted to see if there was anyone in this area who
had played a little organized ball. Dotty Green, who has now passed on, Dotty was from
Natick and she had played with me in the garden and she had already got out to Chicago,
so she must have mentioned my name and Ralph Wheeler asked me if I would want to go
out to Chicago and here I had been making twenty-seven fifty teaching school and I was
offered sixty dollars to play ball and to think that when I arrived in Chicago after getting
off the nights sleeper they could have sent me to South Band, they could have sent me to
Kenosha, they could have sent me to Racine and where did they send me, to Rockford
and I became a Rockford Peach in July of 1943. 11:02
Interviewer: “Now the Rockford Peaches, that was one of the original teams.”
One of the original teams and when they put me on the night sleeper and I got out to
Chicago I met Mr. Salls at the Merchandise Mart and Mr. Salls had been Mr. Wrigley’s
right hand man and he must have gotten me on another train and I landed at the 15th
Avenue stadium and I had become a Rockford Peach and sixty years later Penny
Marshall made a movie and it centered around the Rockford Peaches . 11:39
Interviewer: “I want you to go back to that day when you first walked on the field
as a Rockford Peach. Do you remember that?”
I was very humble because see, I had never really had much competition and who did I
run into? All the California girls and Canadians who couldn’t understand why I had
never had the opportunity to be in league competition, so when I got there in 1943 so
many outstanding girls from California and then in 1944 along come the Californians
who had also played a lot, so we on the east coast, I think, did well to be able to fit into
4
�that style of play and to think that I was able to play for Marty McManus who had
managed the Boston Red Sox and Johnny Gottselig who was a Chicago Blackhawk
hockey player. 12:37 It was the start of a wonderful experience that I just never will
forget.
Interviewer: “What were your first games like? Did you start pitching right
away?”
I was pitching—I’m short and I wasn’t that great a hitter, so I didn’t get off of outfield or
first base, but as I look back on it, I don’t know how it was that I wasn’t kind of scared ,
but it’s just that I’ve always had enough interest in sports to know that you don’t do
anything by yourself and maybe that attitude came across to some of the girls that I
played with because some of the girls that I played against, pitchers, they were
outstanding, they had brought so much experience into the league, but I’ve always
listened and I knew some day I might coach, so I listened to those coaches and we had
outstanding coaches and I learned so much from them. 13:30
Interviewer: “In 1943 they weren’t pitching overhand and you had been pitching
overhand, is that correct?”
Oh, when I was playing with the boys on the regular playground, that was overhand
pitching, but when I played in the garden, that was softball style.
Interviewer: “How was it in 1943? How were you pitching in 1943?”
In 1943, when I got out to Rockford, I pitched—as I look back there were variations of
“windmill” and “slingshot” and I think I was just doing the traditional “windmill” where
as I noticed the Canadian girls, they used that same old “figure eight”, but I just watched
because whether I knew that I was going to go into a profession that maybe had the sport.
I had to wait a long time because they wouldn’t let the girls coach, but it eventually came
and all that helped me as I went along and finally got some girls into ASA competition
and into a world tournament. 14:44
Interviewer: “Now, I realize looking back on it you can make lots of recognition of
what you accomplished, but while you were playing in 1943, did you have any idea
that this was going to go on another year or two years?”
No, because they signed us to contracts every year, so in 1943 as I said, I’d just got
assigned to Rockford, but I was new and as I look back at it I didn’t have what you would
call a good record, but I think the coaches always used to notice that I was really
interested and if they wanted someone to coach down on first, I would go. In 1944 I had
the opportunity to get out on time for spring training and in 1943 I didn’t. The season
had been going for about three or four weeks. In 1944 I had a chance to go out to spring
training where we all trained together and I found out that I was again going to be
assigned to Rockford. 15:44 A few weeks into the season, Mr. Wrigley, although I
never met him, but I heard of the various rules and regulations he made. We belonged to
5
�them, so if anything happened we were asked to go to another team and see, we were
playing a hundred and twenty-five games, so we carried four pitchers and when I was at
Rockford, all of a sudden I got word that I was being sent over to Kenosha because two
of their pitchers were hurt, but little did I know that I was going to go Kenosha and play
for Marty McManus, who had managed the Boston Red Sox and they played behind me
and that’s why I say, “you don’t do it by yourself”, and I won twenty-one games in 1944,
but I never had a good season after that. 16:31
Interviewer: “We’re jumping ahead here, so lets go back a little bit. Now, in the
early days, in 1943, there was more than just playing baseball, did you go through
the etiquette?”
Oh, we went—when Helena Rubenstein came in and we learned how to walk properly
and how to keep our hair nice. Many things weren’t popular then, but when I saw the
uniform—see I had just started to teach school, and the uniform was so much like the
uniform I wore when I was teaching. Four inches above the knee and just like in the
movie, it was the peach color and to think that I had the opportunity when I was at
Cooperstown to have Mr. Salls interview me, with some people down in New York, and
to hear him say, “Mr. Wrigley gave me a hundred thousand dollars to go around the
country to bring into his league girls that were ladies. I think that’s why we heard that we
were going to look like ladies, dress like ladies and act like ladies. 17:42 It made a great
hit with me because that’s the type of uniform that I was wearing. Now, they were four
inches above the knee, but as the years went on I noticed that they got a little shorter, but
it just reminded me how I had just started teaching and that I was going to be able to
combine this activity, that I had never had a chance to do because see—I came through
Sargent College when I then began to play lacrosse and I played against the British when
they would come over here and to think that’s become such a popular sport today, but it’s
just that I’ve been a part of being able to see the programs for the girls expand, but I’m
still looking for our girls to get the leadership roles, which I think they so deserve. 18:33
Interviewer: “I want to go into some of the details of how you were actually
recruited. Remember this is for the archives and we’re trying to get the exact
details. How were you actually recruited and then was there a contract that you
signed? How did you get your uniforms? Did they fit you? Walk us through that
process before you actually went out to play?”
As I said, we had played in the garden and Dottie Green, who was a catcher, a tall girl,
Dottie apparently had already gone out there and she said something that’s when I got the
call in school from Ralph Wheeler, but I had to wait until school finished because they
had started in May and I don’t know when I signed the contract. I must have signed it
before I left, but I’ve got it today with the sixty dollars right on it and I keep it along with
the rest of my memorabilia. 19:32 As soon as school got out they assigned me to a
sleeper and I went out on a night sleeper and I got out to the Merchandise Mart and Mr.
Salls, who was Mr. Wrigley’s right hand man--I never met Mr. Wrigley, he was the one
that met me and got me on another form of transportation and got me out to Rockford.
19:55 I know then that I must have signed the contract then because they made
6
�arrangements, they gave me my uniform. We had chaperones and she would take care of
our uniforms and she would give us our paycheck each week and then when we were on
the road we lived in nice hotels and they gave us two dollars and eighty-five cents, but we
would go to McDonald’s, which was then Alexander’s and I could get my cheeseburger
and my French fries and a coke for twenty-five cents. I could send my money home to
save, so in 1947 I drove my first brand new car out in 1947 to Rockford. 20:39 They
treated us just so well—the movie, some people were upset because they thought the
movie was going to maybe portray things not exactly the way it was, but they spoke to
Penny Marshall and she assured them. She said, “I’m not doing a documentary, I’m
doing a story about something that happened sixty years ago, so I’ll take a few liberties”,
which she did, but I could tell it never spoiled it because that movie continues to be
shown over and over again. And to think that I was just a small part of it and because of
the way they ran that league I say it and I really mean it, “there’s nothing today in 2009
that yet will equate to what Mr. Wrigley did when he got together with Branch Rickey
and decided that maybe it was the time to do something”. 21:37 The boys were going
off in the service and so when I went to Rockford of course, Camp Grant was right near
there and they use to come over and tell us that we were making better money than they
were making. As I look back, just a—I was just in the right place at the right time and to
think as I go and talk to the kiddo’s about my experience and let them know it’s the
friends that I made all over the country and that’s what sports is all about. 22:03
Baseball’s America, so they took to that game that we were playing.
Interviewer: “Did you actually have to go through a charm school? Tell us about
that, what was that like?”
Yes, we went to charm school because we all trained together for the two or three weeks
that we were there and every night we would have inter squad games and one night
Helena Rubenstein’s ladies came in. Sometimes I smile because I think they kind of
portrayed it almost the same way in the movie, but it was just a case to think that Mr.
Wrigley had it in his mind that we were going to dress like ladies and look like ladies and
of course that’s the thing that I—people always had the impression that if you loved
sports you were masculine and that use to break my heart because I was always so fussy
about making all my lady like things. The league was great and I’ve heard some
California girls and some of the Canadians sometime complain that they always played in
shorts, they never played in a skirt, but see, it fit into the philosophy that he had and the
only thing that was difficult with the lefty’s, we had to pin our skirt over so as you went
by you wouldn’t be hitting your skirt. 23:23 I will remember us walking with the books
on our heads and them talking about the mascara and they played it up in the movie and I
can tell people that it was true. They had the best intentions and yet the Midwest and the
California girls and the Canadians, they had competed. Not us in the east, but I still think
that the part that we see where one of the players thought that she wouldn’t play if she
was going to have to wear that uniform and in the movie he says, “well, you’ll either play
with that or you won’t play at all”. I thought it was so great that when I came home and I
had girls ask me if I would coach, this was outside of school, and I asked them, “would
you wear the same uniform, the type that we wore?” I said, “I don’t care if you don’t
slide”, because we would get strawberries because we just had little tights, but they went
7
�along with me, and my mother and I went down and we made those uniforms. In a world
tournament some of the girls from Japan happened to say to us when they saw us walking
out on the field, “what, you going to a dance?” 24:31 I thought, and I still feel that way,
girls must portray the image that we are young ladies and now as I see it advancing and
we see how skilled the girls are, six-two, six-four, when I go over to Harvard and I see
them playing BC, those girls can run like deer.
Interviewer: “Now, you mentioned that in your second time around you actually
did get a chance to go to spring training, but you missed out the first time. Once
again we’re trying to get this for the record because none of us were there, so tell us
about what happened during spring training? Give us a visual, what did you see?”
It portrayed a little bit like they portrayed in the movie, but we didn’t train there, we
trained in LaSalle and Peru in Indiana and what all would have been like the eight teams,
we all trained there like they depicted in the movie. 25:34 You really went through
spring training with the idea you didn’t know just exactly who you were going to get
assigned to and during the day there were all the skill drills and at night they would have
inter-squad games and after the inter-squad games, that’s when we would go in and they
came in from Chicago and showed us how to cross our legs and not to pile our dishes up
when we went out because—that’s one thing that I will remember, that we were looked
upon so highly by the fraternal organizations and there were a few girls that were a little
younger and they might have possibly with the Rotary Club and the Elks, want to get
there and pile their dishes, but I just thought it was so great to think that they thought of
all those extra things for us to do. 26:20 To be sure that we were in and night and gave
us an hour or so after the games and the chaperones were there to see that we did the right
things and I was never anyone who was too sociably inclined, so I wanted to carve my
scrapbooks and wanted to collect my articles, so when the games were over I would go
back up into my room, and we were on the road and I made those books that are all part
of my memorabilia today. 26:48
Interviewer: “Tell us about your chaperone, when you were with the Peaches.”
Oh yes, one of my chaperones was Marie Timm, a schoolteacher from Milwaukee, West
Allis, and she dressed just like we did. She wore the same uniform, but the next year
they went more like an airline hostess and they had the white coats with the red jackets
and after I went over to Kenosha I left Marie Timm, but I went and I had a new
chaperone who had met Marty McManus and that’s how she got the job with Marty. It
was then, when we were at Kenosha, that that opportunity came for us to go to Wrigley
Field to play for the service and four of the teams went into Wrigley Field and we were
the first people who played under the lights because they put all the portable lights up and
every time I recount all the experience I had, I think wasn’t it unique to have a thing run
so top notch and the fellows that would be at Camp Grant and it would be at the naval
station when we would be going down past the U.S. naval station going down to South
Bend. 28:04 To think that they kept everything so kind of high class and I think that’s
the reason why, coupled with the fact that Penny Marshal is so skilled, she had been able
8
�to make that movie and it is shown time and time again and I was just a small little part of
it. 28:23
Interviewer: “After the spring training you went through and all the teams were in
one place, did you already know what team you were playing on?”
No, after the end of spring training they announced where we were going. A little bit like
they depicted it in the movie, but there was no question as to what uniforms we were
going to wear. I never heard anybody say anything and I’ve got the pictures where we all
assigned and the big buses all came and off we went to our towns. We trained in
LaSalle/Peru, twin cities in Illinois. 29:04
Interviewer: “What was the typical season like? How many games did you play?
Were they daytime?”
A hundred and twenty-five games and I shouldn’t do it, but sometimes I look today and
see how the boys are treated well. They can’t pitch nine innings and to think that we had
our strawberries and we were playing every night, so we must have got a few aches and
pains, but I think everybody will tell you that we were having so much fun and it was
such a unique thing even though the California girls and the Canadians all came in with
experience. 29:38
Interviewer: “Now, in the very early days what were the fans like?”
Great, Olive Little from Canada loved olives and they would bring her big bottles. They
were very good to us and of course the fraternal organizations always had us in for the
noon luncheons they were having. Even at the end when we had our first reunion in
Chicago in 1982 I think it was 1982, we had some fans even coming then, who
remembered what we had done and now as we’ve grown into an organization and we’re
now in Milwaukee—the last time we were in Milwaukee they must have gotten
Johnson’s Wax to put up some money. They took us on side trips to Racine and to
Kenosha and to think that so many of the Racine people came in to see their players.
30:33 Racine had been fortunate enough to be able to maintain their players, so when the
league got up to the time where some of the teams were dropping out, Racine still had
about eight of their originals, but it was a little—kind of shady because, but they had that
loyalty with the Racine fans and to think that years later the fans came back and
remembered us. We started with reunions every two years, now they’re every year and to
think when they start to make—they were trying to see if perhaps Cooperstown would
look favorably upon us, not to be inducted, but to be—and to think that when Ted
Spencer saw the names of all the girls that had played here was this gym teacher that he
had had in grammar school and Ted has just recently retired, so every time I go up to
Cooperstown I think how Ted would say and some of the others, “you’re the one that
flunked him because he didn’t have his white sneakers”. 31:40 To think that we did get
recognized in 1988, didn’t get inducted and I think some women took it—I think they
thought we should have, but no it’s a mans organization and by doing things in a nice
positive way, which we did, and to think we now have a statue on the side lawn and the
9
�little display we had has been expanded to include the “Silver Bullets” that came along
after we had finished and Boston College and all those way back when, were playing a
little competitive softball. 32:17
Interviewer: “You were talking about the season then with the Peaches, but then
you moved on to Kenosha. Why or how did that happen?”
The Kenosha Comets, and that’s because we carried four pitchers and Helen Nichol, Fox
McKanda, one of the most outstanding, and Elise Harney, a girl from Illinois, they had
come up with some sore arms or something and so, we carried four pitchers and that’s
when I was told to go over there. In due time Harney and Nicky they were fine and we
carried on with four pitchers and one of the girls who is with me today at our second
reunion in Milwaukee, Rose Foldra. Rose, who had won a scholarship--they were
offering scholarships and Rose had won a scholarship, but somehow as things happen,
she met the right person, she got in his truck with him and out she went and to this day,
out to Carnation, Washington. 33:16 She only played the one year, but when the movie
came out she wrote me a letter and wondered if by any chance I remembered her because
we roomed together in Kenosha. To think the years have gone on and Rose today has
come to our reunion today in Milwaukee.
Interviewer: “Now, you said you roomed together, as a group then you would travel
by bus? How did you get from town to town?”
We went on the buses after our second year. The first two years we had our bags and if
you recall the four teams were all in a ninety mile radius of Chicago, so as I tell people
that when we were going through the streets of Chicago to catch the rapid transit to go to
South Bend we would all be singing, “Oh we hail from Illinois it’s just across the line,
we’re not too young, we’re not too old, in fact we’re in our prime, Oh we hit the ball
with might, in fielding we are fast, we are the Rockford ball club and we always dress in
class, so we never kick the gong and we’re always on our toes, not only in the ball park ,
but when we’re with our bows. Oh. We’re in bed by ten o’clock that is a dirty lie, we are
the Rockford ball club a model do or die”, and we’d be clapping and I always remember
the words. 34:35 It reminded me so much of my training when I was going to B.U.
because I had to go four months to camp to get a lot of the outside things and it’s a
wonderful life and as I look back, it’s the memories that I have and I can still remain
active enough to be able to follow through on so many places that invite me to come and
speak. 35:00 I stood in front of children , but I never stood in front of adults and to think
of the wonderful experience I’ve had and to be able to go to all these four hundred places
and be a part of Fan Fest.
Interviewer: “Let’s get again to the actual routines of a typical season let’s say, with
Kenosha. Before you traveled by bus?”
We were going by Inter-Urban and then we went by bus, so then we would drive on the
bus all night and then go into the town because most towns we went into, you stayed
there for three or four games. They didn’t like us going up to Lake Geneva and that to
10
�swim because they thought we should take care of ourselves. Many a time we had
workouts in the morning, especially when we were home, but it was conducted in such an
outstanding way and the fact that we were invited to the
elks and Kiwanis, I just thought it was—
Interviewer: “I want to get into the actual—so somebody that didn’t know anything
about your experience—you’re traveling by bus all night, you arrive in the city,
what happens?” 36:11
At five o’clock we would report—we would have been assigned to our hotel rooms,
because they all knew the rooms we were going to be in, and then we would head out at
five o’clock to have a batting practice and do infield and then we would play sometimes
double headers, but we most often played single games, but on Sundays we would play a
double header and especially in Racine. They would play in the afternoon because they
had an overhead structure like the little bit that was portrayed in the movie, but otherwise
we tried to play mostly the games at seven o’clock, so you wouldn’t be in the heat of the
sun. they divided the season in half and the winner of the first half played the winner of
the second and when I was in Kenosha we did happen to make the playoffs, but in the
first round they played a round robin and we lost out, but that’s alright because I could
call back to the school department to say that I’d be back on time because we were out.
37:13 We then started the reunions. A girl that had been a bat girl, and it had always
been her desire because I read things that someday she would be able to play, and it
ended up that she was the one to organize our first reunion in Chicago, which we began
to have every two years, but as girls passes on we have them just one year, but to think
that I would go to my first one in Chicago and there I would see Audrey Wagner, now a
Gynecologist and an Obstetrician. She had taken the money—she was from Bensenville
in Illinois and when we would go to South Bend you could just turn your head once and
you’d be through the little town, but she went on to medical school and when I saw her at
our first reunion she said, “yes, if I ever come to Boston Pratty, I’ll come and see you
because I fly my own airplane”, and that season, if she and her nurse didn’t get caught in
a wind pocket and got killed. Audrey Wagner, one of the most outstanding ball players.
38:19
Interviewer: “What would you say are some of the highlights of your time with the
original team, with Rockford?”
The highlights? I think the highlight would be what I did in 1944. I did win twenty-one
games and I did pitch a no hitter, but I still have to emphasize that you don’t do it by
yourself, your team played behind you. I’ve always felt that way and I think that’s why
when I went to Kenosha they readily accepted me, so it’s something, I can’t say it was in
my bringing up, but my love of sports let me realize, even when I went to teach, I can
teach a person to think, I’m not going to go out there and make the plays for you and I
think it’s that I was always just so wrapped up in how you do things and if you do things
the right way and if you think ahead of time and that’s what I try to get across when I go
to the schools. 39:18 It’s more than just winning games and having a good record. It’s
just the friendships that you’ve gained and the people that you’ve taught and now that
11
�I’m in my nineties I find that people that I had in school remember me. It’s very
rewarding although I wish I would have met the right fella and married, but I ended up an
old maid school teacher for forty eight years, but I taught at every level and then the last
twenty we were doing a lot as what is being done today to realize children, if their not
doing well academically there’s something wrong and we can’t be that authoritative
teacher that just says their going to---to find out that I worked physical education, motor
development, start to get that body going and it’s funny how that—you don’t become Phi
Beta Kappa, but you’re not flunking everything. 40:14 I think that’s what helped me so
much and I thought that last twenty years was great and today running into children who
are coming from disoriented families and to think, through the avenue of physical
education and where I don’t like to say it, sometimes the men are still just throwing out
the ball and I don’t think that’s what physical education is.
Interviewer: “I found something very interesting while I was doing some research
on your particular story and that is, all through this interview you talked about how
much you loved school and loved teaching, you loved school, but in 1946 your school
wouldn’t release you for spring training. What happened?” 40:59
I quit and I know my mother wouldn’t care, but I remember going to my principal and he
said to me, “Mary you wouldn’t drop your job”, so I said, “no, don’t you look up to
Bobby Doerr and Ted Williams?” I so admired the men—just the fact that they could
compete and so, I did, I asked for the time off and I believe it was 1945 and it ended up
that we didn’t get into the playoffs that year and I think the superintendent called my
mother and offered her the opportunity to ask me if I would want to come back. I can
remember my mother saying, “I know she would never come back unless you knew that
she was doing the right work”, so it was, I did go back, but in 1946 and 1947 I never gave
any thought of dropping my job then because I was twenty-two or twenty-three and I
thought they had deprived themselves of a lot of things to send me to college because
then it was four hundred and thirty-two dollars. 42:07 A hundred and forty four three
times a year and to think today forty one or forty two thousand, so they had a hard time,
but they stuck with me. My mother—they never went on to college, my father became a
Certified Public Accountant and all that, but it just—everything just worked out well, so
I’ve stayed very involved because of the all American. I just feel that’s part of what I
should do and I served two years, I’ve served two years on the board and because I got
Ken Burns, he decided he was going to do a documentary and these are the things that
amaze me. I’m just a little person from the east coast and the Californians and the
Canadians, they seemed to have more opportunities and it just show you that if you’re
doing the right thing how it ended up that Ken Burns asked us if we would take part and
the other day I turned on channel sixteen at home and all of a sudden I looked and I saw
this black and white film and it was Jackie Robinson. 43:16 Ken had decided he was
going to do his thing by innings and the era of Jackie Robinson and the All American he
was putting in the sixth inning and all of a sudden I looked because I had taped it myself
every Sunday and I bought the book, but I had never seen this and here is Dotty Green
and myself didn’t come out in color. I couldn’t believe it, I mean I looked so nice and we
were answering the questions and I thought, “I never would have thought all of this
would come, and someone will see me and “Mary I saw you on channel two”. To think
12
�he has always been doing all these different historic ones, but to think that we got
included in it and then to get on with Robin Roberts, it’s really been a wonderful life.
44:07
Interviewer: “I’m really curious and there’s something here we haven’t gotten to
yet. We haven’t gotten to something that I’m very curious about and that is that
with your love of school and you’re playing baseball, but there was a moment in
1946 when you had to make a decision. You had to make a choice and you even
went, in a sense, against the better wishes of your parents. Why? Why did you play
baseball instead of just saying, “well, I guess?” 44:35
Yeah, and well, I think my father saw in me what he didn’t see in my brother. We were
only thirteen months apart and my mother was fourteen when she left Kingston, Jamaica
to come to the states and to eventually meet my dad and then when they married to have
two children thirteen months apart. Whether she knew that I was doing the right thing—
you know, playing with the boys, she never said no, but as I look back, in her quiet way
and having come from a little bit of wealth down there in Kingston, Jamaica, her brother
was the Gores that did all the Gores cigars and all that, but she came on here after she go
tout of high school, Convent of Mercy she went to, so I think she was really overly
protective of me, she always mad my clothes and all that, but it’s amazing where, unless
she ever play Cricket, she was not adapted to sports, but she loved the Red Sox and at the
end she would go with me and go to all the games. 45:38 I always thought basketball
was my best sport, but I just took part in everything, but we never realize what our
parents have done until years later because see I taught at the end when I now just
recently was told there’s a hundred and fifty homeless children in Quincy and I can’t
believe it. My mother was there all the time for us. 46:00
Interviewer: “Once again I want to get back to this idea of the decision you made to
play baseball and actually quit school.”
Because I just thought it was so—I guess in my own way I thought that I might learn
something the might help me in coaching, but it seemed as though it was an opportunity I
would never have thought of and if I hadn’t played at the garden and Dottie Green, who
had already gotten out there and Maddy English, who’s now gone, she was from Evert
and she stayed at the all American longer than I did and she eventually came back and
finished up at B.U., but I have wondered that, it’s a good question when you ask it
because except to play catch with my father, you know, the boys would just ask—
somehow I think whether it’s because my mother, I still, I hope, acted like a lady and not
a roughian and that’s what keeps me going. When I talk to the kiddo’s to let them realize
what sports is all about. That it’s learning to get along with people and someone has to
win and someone has to lose. 47:16 I can get all these different stories and as long as
they know I take my ball cards and give them some ball cards and I’ve been to over six
hundred places and just recently a girl went to take an advanced degree at Syracuse and
she told me—she came to visit and saw some of my pictures and to think there is enough
interest that the other day she sent me her disc “Rosy at the Bat”, so I think we touch
lives in so many ways that we never think of and yet sometimes I get the feeling that
there are maybe some people my age where I am now living in a senior project, but not in
13
�assisted living. I gave my four-bedroom house to my nephew. 48:02 There are still
some people who would say, “that’s not something that a girl does”, and that’s why I stay
with it, to think that if we can get the girls coaching because the men tend to do a little
roughhouse because we are young ladies and to think that—I never met him, but that’s
what Mr. Wrigley was pushing for and that’s what was my background at Sargent.
Interviewer: “Now, you went on to play with Rockford again, right? 1946 to
1947?”
That’s why I think that they must have noticed—not to say that I had anything, but they
were then overhand pitching and it’s like little league. Those girls, when we couldn’t get
softball pitchers in 1943, 1944 and 1945 they started sidearm well, eventually it became
overhand and just like the boys at about forty feet and they throw in fast, but somehow
those girls that could throw hard and I don’t know why it was, it was only for the
summer, Rockford asked me to come back. 49:08 I don’t know, but there must have
been something in my attitude, or whatnot, that they thought that I was going to be an
addition to the club and I wasn’t going to get upset because some other people pitching
were maybe better than I, so I coached a lot, the coaches would coach on third, on first,
but I really—when I look back I think it was either something that came out of me
through my home that I was taught the right things and without them battering me, that I
did it and I think it came through. 49:47 When I was going to do my undergraduate
work, I never forgot that I was supposed to be a young lady and act like a lady.
Interviewer: “You also went to the U of M, the University of Michigan, the U of
M?”
No, the University of Michigan is what two of the girls—University of Michigan was one
of the girls when I went to Salem State.
Interviewer: “But didn’t you go to the U of M?” 50:12
No, I went—no, the University of Michigan, I’ve been out--Interviewer: “Where did you get your degree after that though?”
I stayed at B.U. and then I took the B.U. Harvard extension courses and I got fifty-two B
on my masters, but I was taking courses at U. Mass Boston and then I go into B.U.
because Sargent had now come on to the B.U. Campus.
Interviewer: “That was Mass, I’m sorry, I got the wrong M.”
I got my fifty-two year—I got my associate degree, but I didn’t go beyond to get my
doctorate because you had to be an administrator and that’s one thing I have regretted, I
never did get out of the trenches, but I have no regrets now. 51:02 I don’t think you do
anything better than working with children.
Interviewer: “1995 Boston Garden Hall of Fame. Tell us about that.”
Oh yeah, they not only were going to change the garden, they were doing some different
things, so they started to do a Hall of Fame and they had it—I don’t know where they had
it around, but the next thing I knew, I had been inducted into it, so I went in with Derek
14
�Sanderson I think, and I went in with one of the gentlemen who did maybe some of the
menial work around the garden and it was great because they had me come in and we
went up to those sky view seats where the company’s now all pay for the whole place,
and to think that I went down on the garden floor with Sanderson, and I forget who else
got honored and they got—I have a nice plaque and then as a follow up they started on
the very top floor opening up some of the exhibits of girls in basketball and whatnot and
as a result, school children started to come in and I volunteered to go in and take them
around on the—and see all the views of the upstairs of the—particularly hockey, but then
they took a tape of the closing of the Boston Garden and to think that I was there when
Woody Dumont and Bobby Bauer and Milt Schmidt were going off to fight for Canada
and that I was up there when I saw them go and I was there when Cunningham went his
two minute mile. 52:51 I just was so wrapped up in everything and I think a lot was my
father, he took me to a lot of those things, so it’s been a wonderful life.
Interviewer: “Do you want some water?”
No, I’m fine.
Interviewer: “Let’s wrap it up with—looking back you made several comments
about how this has had an effect on you, but personally, you personally, not in terms
of the whole league, how has playing in this league affected you personally?” 53:23
When you are talking this league you’re referring to the all American?
Interviewer: “Yes”
It has affected me to the point that I have—you know maybe I have accepted the way
they doing everything, but when I look back and I think that every bit of their interest was
to do the thing right by us. To have chaperones who would be there because see, in the
movie you see Tom Hanks in the locker room and I have to tell people sometimes
remember—Penny Marshall told us, she said, “I’m not doing a documentary, I’m doing a
story about something that happened years ago, so I’ll take a few liberties”, so when I go
I can tell people that Tom played a great part and I said we were told that he did it for that
reason because he was playing Jimmy Fox and the drinking took both of them, but to
think that I was part of that and combined with my background that I had at home and the
background of the wonderful teachers that I had when I look back at it now. 54:31 To
think of the background that I’ve got and to think that the highlight would be baseball and
that baseball is America and now I get asked—I’m going back to Bosox on Friday when I
go because two women’s groups that have been playing baseball are being honored and
I’m to go and sit at the table with them. 54:55 I just feel like I have something to offer
and they can see that I’ve taken care of myself and I I’ve made it to ninety and I’m on my
way to ninety one and to think that I can still go and talk in such a way that people think
I’m sincere. I answer the things that I get because I’m still getting—I do this Out and
About Project and they send me the blank of where they have been and I send them back
another blank, so I know that—besides some people who never send them, we are Out
and About and that’s how we’re preserving the legacy of the all American.
Interviewer: “Thank you so much.”
15
�Hope you got enough, so you can piece it together right because you ask nice questions.
Interviewer: “Thank you.”
16
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Text
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-58_MPratt
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Pratt, Mary (Interview transcript and video), 2009
Creator
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Pratt, Mary
Description
An account of the resource
Mary Pratt was born in 1918 in Bridgeport, Connecticut. Throughout her early childhood and on through college she played baseball. Before joining the All American Girls Professional Baseball League, Pratt played hockey for two seasons with the Boston Olympets from 1939 to 1940. She got her start professionally in baseball with the Rockford Peaches in 1943. In 1944, she played for the Rockford Peaches and the Kenosha Comets and then in 1945 played just for the Kenosha Comets. From 1946 to 1947 she played for the Rockford Peaches. Throughout her professional career she played as a pitcher and saw how the rules in softball changed how the game was played. The highlights in her professional career were from her 1944 season when she won 21 games and pitched a no-hitter.
Contributor
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Boring, Frank (Interviewer)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Women
Language
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Moving Image
Text
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2009-09-25
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dd7f30f3e8a50eb357cabd7d0983f09c.m4v
dbc517c5f8ec935ef3ecc22abc9e8fe4
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/027a6f526baba095d20d2302fac1a1e9.pdf
3ed43232ca0e9464b5090a7c988bb4e8
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Grace Piskula
Length of Interview: (00:38:20)
Interviewed by: Gordon Olson, September 26, 2009 in Milwaukee, WI at the alumni
annual reunion of the All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, April 14, 2010
Interviewer: “Grace, I think the easiest way to start these interviews is to just talk
a little bit about you and your family and your experience with sports before you got
involved with professional baseball. Where were you born and tell me a little bit
about your background.”
Well, I was born on February 26, 1926 in Milwaukee, Wisconsin on the south side of
Milwaukee and the neighborhood was primarily Polish and German. I had a younger
brother and an older brother in my lifetime. All of my experience with sports came from
the neighborhood because my neighborhood was full of boys and there was only one
other girl. 1:16 Gladys and I were the only two and she didn’t like any sports, but I
always played and had a lot of fun. I even played tackle football in a lot of open lots and
wherever we could get equipment. We had a big yard and the man upstairs would buy a
ball and we would play ball in the back yard. There was a big barn that we surrounded
and it must have been an old country area because if you got a home run it would go over
the barn and land in the alley in the next block there, but my brothers were not interested
in sports. One was very interested in reading, that’s my oldest brother, and in theater, and
my youngest brother was a runner. He ran when he was in high school. 2:10 There was
a social center near our home and you could go to the social center and play volleyball,
basketball or take classes and it was run by the Milwaukee Recreation Department, which
was terrific, so I got interested in sports. I was playing all over the city, volleyball,
basketball, and softball and eventually played softball in West Allis, they had a league
there and many of the girls who made this league are from that area.
Interviewer: “They started as softball players.”
It started with underhand softball and we played at night, and of course when I was
playing it was during the war years and the men weren’t around, so they had big crowds,
five thousand people would come and watch and I was offered a job at Heil Company if I
would play volleyball, basketball and softball for them. 3:10 I wasn’t interested because
of my family. My mom never went beyond the sixth grade and my father never beyond
the tenth and both of them were terrific believers in education. However, they couldn’t
afford to send us to college, but we certainly were checked on during our grade school
and high school time and that’s all that mattered, doing well in school. 3:34
1
�Interviewer: “Now, in the neighborhood when you were playing, this was what
would be called today, disorganized recreation. There were not teams as such, it
was just whoever showed up in the morning to start playing ball?”
Yes, all the boys were—I think I was the only girl and all the boys would get together
and somebody would bring a bat and they would bring a ball and we would play in an
open field. 3:59
Interviewer: “Did you choose up sides?”
Yes, you would toss the bat and choose up sides.
Interviewer: “As the only girl, were you the last one chosen?”
No, I was not and my brother never liked the fact that he wouldn’t be picked before me.
Interviewer: “You were the better ball player in the family?”
Yes, but he was a better runner. 4:21 I had these trophies in the kitchen, my mother had
them up and his friends would come over and they would say, “What did you get the
trophy for?” My brother would say, “they’re my sister’s”.
Interviewer: “That’s great—now, what position in softball?”
I played—actually I played almost all of them except pitching and catching, but my main
positions were short, first base, third base and left field. 4:50
Interviewer: “That pretty well covers it.”
I played second base once, but I never played right field or pitched and I was a good
hitter that was the other thing.
Interviewer: “That would explain why you got chosen quickly. How did you hear
about the all American Girls League and how did you get involved with that?”
Well, I didn’t hear about it frankly, it was news to me. I didn’t know they had tryouts, I
didn’t know anything about that. I was working at Schuster’s in the candy department to
get money for school. 5:28
Interviewer: “Schuster’s was a department store in Milwaukee?”
Yes, a department store and they had a cafeteria and all these other things and I played
softball on their team and I got a telegram from Jack Lossa. Jack Lossa was a former
Milwaukee Brewer who had a softball team on the north side and Buddy Greif was my
coach and he had a softball team on the playgrounds on the south side and he got to be a
manager and he needed a player in left field immediately and he remembered me playing
against his team and he just sent a wire and said, “Have job for you on Rockford Peaches.
Report to Racine”, and my mother said, “You’re not going anywhere.” 6:14
Interviewer: “How old were you at this point?”
I was about eighteen, and my mother said, “you’re not going”. I was a senior in high
school, trying to earn money for school, so I called Buddy Greif and asked him to come
2
�over and he said to my mother, “where could she earn fifty dollars a week plus two fifty a
day for spending money?” My mother couldn’t answer that and I wasn’t earning that
kind of money even at Schuster’s or even in the defense plants soldering canteens, so
they did let me go. 6:46 I went to Rockford and lived in a rooming house.
Interviewer: “I have to ask you, when you went to Rockford, was that one of the
first times that you had left home essentially?”
Yes, I never was on a train until I went to college because it was kind of a protective
neighborhood. We had certain hours at night and you had to stay home and talk as a
family. We had a night where we had to stay home so we could talk together as a family,
so we could talk together and play together and stuff. A different kind of family than we
have today. 7:32
Interviewer: “That’s a good family practice. Your family must have been rather
excited when you decided to go off and play baseball?”
I’m not sure they were excited at all. Actually my mother knew very little about sports.
She came to an all city game we had one time when I was playing left field and my father
told me that when the ball came out and I caught it, she turned to him and said, “now
what’s she going to do with it?” That’s how much she knew about the game. 8:02
Interviewer: “Fortunately you knew what to do with the ball when you caught it.”
I knew where to throw it, right.
Interviewer: “Somebody told me that at one point Mr. Wrigley took an active
interest in your career.”
Actually when I went to college, I went to LaCrosse State University, my first college
experience and while there I got a phone call from Mr. Wrigley, I wasn’t the only person,
there were a few girls that he must have somehow got names of who were from different
areas not just Milwaukee, but from others, and he asked me to come and tryout in
Chicago with the Chicago Chicks. 8:46
Interviewer: “A different league.”
I really think the Chicago Chicks were the work up league for the other one.
Interviewer: “Their teams played all around Chicago.”
They played at night and we wore shorts, we wore satin shorts and tops and then satin
leggings and I still have the contract in my scrapbook from that experience and we lived
in rooming houses in groups. In fact, I will try to remember the name of the gal who—
her husband use to come and she was married and had children and he use to come and
watch her play on weekends. 9:21 She also got on one of the teams in our league, so that
was like, what do you call that, the minor leagues?”
3
�Interviewer: “Minor leagues probably.”
Mr. Wrigley, I don’t know if it was he himself. He asked me to come and I said, “I can’t
come, I have no money”, and he said they would put me on the Hiawatha, which went
from Lacrosse to Chicago and I never had a chance to see my parents, so I said, “I won’t
come unless I can stop in Milwaukee and see my parents”, and they let me do that and
when we got to Chicago there was a limo waiting and they took me to a gym and tried me
out. When the movie came out I was sitting there and I had forgotten about that
experience and all of a sudden tears were coming down. It was a recall that happened to
me and I’m sure it happened to other people also. 10:20 I played first base there.
Interviewer: “Describe that tryout experience. What did they have you do?”
Oh, they had me bat mostly in the gym and field when someone would throw a ball to
you. That’s about the extent of it. It was a fairly large gym.
Interviewer: “Who was watching the tryouts and who was making the decision?”
I don’t know who the man was. They had somebody that took us there and was checking
out what you could do and I had a first baseman’s mitt and an infielder.s mitt and a ball.
I had one of those bags with me. It was a twelve-inch softball. It was the Olympic style
softball. 11:09
Interviewer: “This actually took place though after you had already played with the
Peaches, correct? You played with the—or did you go with the—“
I played one year with the Peaches and then the next year I played in Chicago.
Interviewer: “Let’s back up to that Peaches experience. You got to Rockford on
your own and do you remember the first game you played in?”
No. I remember that at one of the games I slid into first base and I may have sprained my
ankle, but we had no people to help us with injuries. We had a coach and the team and
that was it, and a chaperone, that was it. The catcher, I remember, taped up my foot, but
we were all so eager to play that we wouldn’t tell the coach what condition we were.
12:02 When I look back on it, when I look at the players now and all the help they get,
exercises, food and all this. There was nothing and in fact most girls worked during the
day, especially in Chicago. That’s why I went there, to make money for college. We
worked during the day, like office work or store work and played ball at night.
Interviewer: “Just so you had money to go to college, but earn money and also get
to play the game you love.”
To earn money for college and I loved the game. All three of them.
Interviewer: “Any recollections of the—you played essentially part of a season in
Rockford?”
Yes.
4
�Interviewer: “Any recollections of the games?”
They were terrific in Rockford, the people; they had lots of support and lots of people in
the audience and then the American Legion and others there would say, ”today the first
home run gets ten dollars”, you know what I’m saying, they use to give away prizes to
the batters and a lot of times they would serve lunches for us after the game. 13:15 You
always had to deal with the fans to sign autographs on cigarette packs and stuff you know
people weren’t going to keep anyway. They were eager to see what you look like. 13:29
Interviewer: “Any guys hang around after the game?”
Lots of guys, especially in Chicago.
Interviewer: “So it’s a version of what goes on in major league baseball today only
the genders are reversed.”
Yes. The ladies went to see the men and the men went to see the ladies.
Interviewer: “that’s good. What was the field like? The playing conditions, do you
have any recollections of the condition of the field for example?”
I thought they were very good fields. They were fields, as I recall, that other men’s
softball teams played on in the communities. In fact, all of my sports experiences were
out of the community. I played volleyball and basketball even in Iowa, you know, we
would go on weekends on trips. I don’t know why, but during the war none of the
companies got a lot of publicity and they always had these teams for publicity. 14:30
The paper always had the scores and the name of the company would be in the paper and
that’s why they wanted people to play ball.
Interviewer: “They wanted winning teams.”
They wanted winning teams and they wanted their names in the paper and that’s why I
was offered a job to play three sports, during the war, for that company and they said they
would give me this nice easy job, but of course without an education, what kind of a job
could you get, so to us—my mother was so proud—I told you she never went to school
and I have a brother with a PhD and both myself and my other brother have masters
degrees and my mother said we were the only ones in the neighborhood. 15:10
Interviewer: “She was very proud of that.”
She was so proud of that, when she lived she was.
Interviewer: “Any big hits, any big plays still come to mind from your playing
days?”
I remember that in Chicago at my first bat, I hit a triple and I’ve never forgotten that one.
I also remember my first night with the Rockford Peaches, playing left field, a fly ball
coming and I’m going after it and I catch it and I look and there was someone backing me
5
�up to make sure I would catch that ball. I remember getting my ankle wrapped when I
slid into base. 15:49
Interviewer: “Pain is something you tend to remember.”
It was painful later, also because it wasn’t taken care of.
Interviewer: “So, you played part of a year then in Rockford and then the next year
in Chicago, was that the extent of your professional playing?”
Yes, I finished and I went to school.
Interviewer: “Where did you go to school?”
I went to school at Lacrosse State University and then I went to New York University for
my masters and in 1952 we all went to the Olympic games as part of our studies. We
wrote some papers on sports in America and as they are played in other countries and
that’s a very big highlight in my life. 16:34
Interviewer: “That’s an incredible experience. Where were the 1952 Olympics
held?”
Helsinki. We saw Paavo Nurmi run—
Interviewer: “Helsinki, that’s right. You didn’t just go to the Olympics, you got on
a boat and traveled across the Atlantic to the Olympics.”
Two boats.
Interviewer: “When you say we all, who do you mean?”
We were all graduate students for either masters or PhD’s at New York University. The
only man who spoke Finnish in the group was a black man with his PhD and to me that
was very interesting. 17:10
Interviewer: “I bet it was interesting to the Finnish people as well.”
We slept in a dormitory of some kind on straw beds, double deckers, but you could see
the Olympic torch all night long through the window. Those were interesting experiences
and meeting the athletes from other places who were on steroids. You could see it in
their builds
Interviewer: “Already then you saw it.”
Way back then in 1952, I think before they even noticed it. Most of the gymnasts--I
never saw such shoulders on women
Interviewer: “A little unusual.”
Very unusual.
Interviewer: “Particularly for you as a physical education major, you studied
kinesiology and the structure of muscles and things, you knew what you were
looking at.”
6
�Something was funny. I think it was a year later in 1953 or 1954 that they got onto the
drugging. 18:11
Interviewer: “For the first time. I want to back up just a minute because I’m
familiar with Lacrosse. Now Lacrosse, one of the featured majors is in physical
education.”
Yes, I got my first degree from there.
Interviewer: “That’s what that school, among other things, focused on. How many
women at Lacrosse were taking these kinds of courses? Were there a lot of women
and was it unusual? ”
No, there were a lot of women. We had practically—it was almost even the men to
women as students. I don’t know what we had in my class, eighty or ninety and half
were men and half were women. 18:48
Interviewer: “Then you went from there and got a graduate degree?”
I went to New York University for my graduate work and I would go in the summers at
first. They had a school camp and then later, the last year, when I got my maters we were
on this trip and we studied on the ship all the way across.
Interviewer: “That’s still an incredible experience.”
Just a wonderful experience and I have never really forgotten it because we became very
good friends after all the trips through Europe etc. The gents carried our luggage and it
was wonderful. I still have friends from those days. 19:32
Interviewer: “Once you graduated, what was your career after?”
The same thing after I graduated. My first job was as a physical education teacher at
McKinley Jr. High School in Racine, Wisconsin where I started my career in baseball.
Interviewer: “You came home.”
No, I’m a Milwaukee girl.
Interviewer: “You went back to Wisconsin.”
That was strange, that was strange, that was very strange. I remember coming to that city
and wouldn’t you know, I got a job there. I was in Racine at the junior high school and
then I taught in the high school and then I taught at the University of Hawaii for a year
and then I came back and I became the director for the district in health and physical
education. 20:20 I spent my major lifetime in Racine.
Interviewer: “In education.”
Yes, in education.
Interviewer: “You were in Hawaii?”
I was in Hawaii before they were a state.
7
�Interviewer: “How did that happen?”
That came up because I was a student at N.Y.U. and Dr. Sokhi, who was on staff in
Hawaii, got to know me when I was going for my masters and at the time physical
education teachers were hard to find and they wanted me to come the very year that I
graduated, he did, and I said, “I can’t do that to my district. They took me when I knew
nothing and they can’t replace me now because there are no teachers, so I went back to
Racine and all the while I was in Racine that year, I kept getting missiles from Dr. Sokhi
and he asked me to come the next year then. 21:20 I asked my superintendent, I didn’t
know if I would like it or not, if I could take a leave of absence and he told me I could if I
came back the next year, so I agreed to that and I wasn’t to Hawaii and taught and after a
year they wanted me to stay on and I said I couldn’t because I had promised Racine that I
would come back. I went back and the man I had made the promise to had lest the
community and I have never forgotten that. That is a dirty trick to play on somebody.
Interviewer: “You kept your word.”
I kept my word, but the superintendent didn’t.
Interviewer: “Hawaii would have been a very interesting place to be in.”
It was and the next year they became a state.
Interviewer: “Because of the fact that you were a player, a teacher—you’ve been in
sports in one way or another, women’s sports, for a long time. Reflect a little bit for
me if you will on the kinds of changes you’ve seen in the attitude towards women
athletes for example and the attitude of women athletes toward their sports.”
Well, I think the women are interested in their sports, but there’s little they can do with
the fact that sports have become a business instead of anything else and unfortunately
what happens is the women, even though many are more talented than some of the men,
never are paid anywhere near what they are being paid and the reason is that they don’t
bring in the revenue at the gates and I think that’s true with almost everything except
maybe golf. 23:12 I was hole captain at the meets when the golf association was in
Wisconsin and they got terrific crows, so golf and maybe tennis is good, but women’s
basketball and softball, for some reason, do not draw crowds. The basketball’s a killer
on the heart and the women play as well as the men do, but their not compensated.
Interviewer: “Not at all. One thing that occurs to me, when you were playing
baseball the uniforms were designed to emphasize the fact that you were a woman
and it seems to me that all the way through, right up to today, that still is a part of
the difference between men’s sports and women’s sports. There is still an emphasis
on making sure that the fans in the stands know that they’re watching women
athletes.”
I don’t know, I think women will always be women, or they should be, otherwise we
have a big problem and I think that the attitude that people think if you play a sport you
have to be tough, it’s not true. I know many women who are very feminine who play
8
�sports very well, so I don’t know how you’re going to dispel that. There are a lot of very
nice looking women in sports and not only in looks they have good shapes too. 24:39
You can’t—the only difference, I think, you have to remember—take for instance my
shoulder for instance—men have more muscle spindles in that shoulder than I do and I’ll
never be able to match them and maybe that’s the reason that when women got into
overhand throwing, they lost so many arms, I don’t know.
Interviewer: “There were a lot of injuries to women pitchers?”
Yes, the women went to play just like the men play baseball, throwing from the pitching
staff and we lost a lot of arms and pretty soon the league was over. Some of it might be
part physical, I don’t know. 25:17 That’s just my opinion, you would have to ask a
Kinesiologist.
Interviewer: “At the time there wasn’t a lot of good science about the strain that
was put on an arm by throwing.”
I have a personal opinion, I can’t figure out why women would want to box. I don’t
understand, I can see tennis, I can see volleyball, I can see the other games, but boxing
and football, I don’t understand that. Somebody’s going to have to give me an education
also. 25:53
Interviewer: “I’m with you.”
Every man I know that ever played football has had back problems all his life.
Interviewer: “Legs and knees and just serious problems.”
It’s tough; it’s a tough sport.
Interviewer: “This is a question I’ve asked an awful lot of the players. While you
were playing—when you first started out as a professional woman baseball player,
did you see yourself as a pioneer in any way?”
No, I loved the game and I think—my mother use to say I shake to play. I would go to
the social canter and play volleyball and basketball, you know I’ve done those three
things all my life and now I golf and that’s about it, but I don’t know why because I
didn’t have a family—my mother never went beyond sixth grade and my father never
beyond tenth and they just didn’t have the opportunities that I had. 26:56
Interviewer: “Sports opened doors for you.”
Yes, the sports have opened the doors for me and I’m sure it has for many young people,
but first get the education.
Interviewer: “Now as you look back on it, you have a chance to assess the role you
played, now do you see yourself as--in some ways, although you didn’t realize it at
the time, actually pioneering?”
9
�Yes, I think that helping women not only in the professional aspect, but even in the
college sports and the scholarships and things of that kind because those things are much
more available to women today than they use to be just as they’re available to someone
who is good in theater or good in art, we have that in sports now and people will have to
look for it, but it’s there. Some of the legislation is helping also. 27:58
Interviewer: “Ok.”
I figure I was lucky and I thank you for this opportunity.
Interviewer: “Well, we were the fortunate ones.”
If anybody’s going to hear it---“get your education first”.
Interviewer: “A great line to end with.”
Thank you.
Interviewer: “Thank you very much.”
Interviewer: “Lets talk a little bit about the movie. All of a sudden the league—it
wasn’t forgotten, but it wasn’t well remembered either and then all of a sudden
there’s a major movie made about your experiences. What kinds of reactions and
experiences did you have as a result of the movie?” 28:39
I think everybody was excited about the movie, but I forgot to mention the fact that I had
my uniform sitting in my closet for, it must have been ten years, because the last game
that Rockford played was in Milwaukee and I still have the programs from that day and
here I had that uniform sitting and after about ten years or so I got rid of the uniform from
my closet. I either gave it to a costume shop or to the theater group I can’t remember
which, but the movie is unbelievable, every year and I watch what’s on the movies and
they must show that thing eight or ten times a year and every time they show it they got a
crowd watching it. Now, the movie made the comedian, Rosie O’Donnell, I think that
made her, that movie and I think you should know that actually a bunch of players at the
time, I’m not going to name them, didn’t want Madonna playing in our movie because
they didn’t like her lifestyle at the time, so I didn’t know much about Madonna because
I’m not a big movie fan, but I did buy the movie for all my nephews and nieces. 30:01
Interviewer: “After the movie comes out, did that affect you more recognition?”
Yes, after the movie came out you get more mail—people asking for autographs. I have
had autograph seeking from Germany, for soldiers, from people in the services that send
you stuff and one person sent their first day issues of a stamp collection and instructed me
to sign on that first issue thing and I thought—“what are they doing?” I know they’re
selling autographs and I think mine is worth about fifteen dollars now. I had somebody
check up and see, but there’s one I have from the Brewers called the—It’s in the case and
that one’s worth more because I’m on with the men players also. 30:57
Interviewer: “And you get invited from time to time for appearances?”
10
�Yes, it’s usually clubs and schools. Every year I’m at some school because they’re
studying women—what women have achieved and there will be some number of kids
that want to write about the league, so then they call me up and ask for an interview and
then they write their papers. So far every girl who has written a paper about my life in
the—has received an A on their paper, including my niece.
Interviewer: “what do you tell them when they--?”
I tell them what I told you—how I was brought up, how I had never been on a train until I
went to college, how my folks never had—and this was a way of getting an education for
me because they couldn’t afford to send me and how the boys were both able to go
because they were both in the army at that time and their school was paid for and mine
wasn’t. I think at that time there was an attitude that it’s more important for the men to
get educated than the women because I found a little of that in my father. He was afraid I
would get married and all that money would go down the drain. 32:10
Interviewer: “You emphasize to the girls, when you get a chance to talk to them, to
get their educations.”
Yes, I really—that was the proudest—my mother was proudest of the fact that she had
three kids—two had masters degrees and one had a PhD and that to her meant more than
anything we did, even playing ball really, because she never went beyond the sixth grade.
They never had a chance, they had big families and they had to help at home. My father
never beyond the tenth, he wanted to be a doctor and never got to be one—they had
thirteen kids in their family and they had to go to work. It was the end of the depression.
33:02
Interviewer: “Kids need to understand that in many ways they have far more
opportunities and they better take advantage of them.”
All of my nieces and nephews, I tell them that they’re spoiled rotten and they are.
They’re living in an entirely different world, they have so many things and they ask for
something and pretty soon it comes. We could wish for it, but we didn’t expect it.
Interviewer: “Any regrets about taking time out to play professional ball?”
No, I loved to play, I would love to play now, but all I play now is golf.
Interviewer: “thanks for taking an extra minute. There was good usable stuff
there.”
11
�12
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-58_GPiskula
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Piskula, Grace (Interview transcript and video), 2009
Creator
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Piskula, Grace
Description
An account of the resource
Grace Piskula was born in Milwaukee, Wisconsin on February 26, 1926. Growing up she played softball with the neighborhood boys and in school. She played all positions but mainly stuck to playing shortstop, first and third base and left field. Eventually, her coach, Buddy Greif, approached her one day and informed her she would be playing for the Rockford Peaches. Soon thereafter while she was up at college, she received a call from Mr. Wrigley, owner for the Chicago Chicks to come play for them. She played one year for the Rockford Peaches and then the next for the Chicago Chicks. Her career highlights include hitting a triple for Chicago and then catching a fly ball while with Rockford. Following her two years in the league she quit and went back to college. She discusses her post-baseball career in some detail.
Contributor
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Olson, Gordon (Interviewer)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
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Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players-Illinois
Women
Language
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2009-02-26
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/eded5ef8e5516cd446dddcc17e7b89ed.m4v
278592a3e572a9a24588c53c16982846
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fd499bc71424407048b75bd0272a4666.pdf
11adbdca6a3ad3ecd7e37e0c6272cf29
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
ANN PETROVIC, Infield Shortstop
Women in Baseball
Born: November 17, 1928 Aurora, Indiana
Resides: Tucson, Arizona
Interviewed by: James Smither, PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 7, 2010,
Detroit, MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, October 4, 2010
Interviewer: “Now Ann, can you start by giving us a little bit of background on
yourself?”
I was born and raised in Aurora, Indiana. There were about five thousand people and I
was the youngest of nine children. I had five brothers, and now you know where I got
started in baseball, and three sisters. That’s how I got started in baseball.
Interviewer: “In what year were you born?”
I was born on November 17, 1928.
Interviewer: “What did your family do for a living?”
My father worked at a chair factory, he was a bandsawer and he sawed legs and arms and
stuff for chairs and that’s what we did for a living.
Interviewer: “So, did he keep that job through the depression?”
He did. He was about fourteen years old when he started and he worked until he was
about seventy-eight years old.
Interviewer: “What kind of school did you go to?” 1:03
Well, I went to school; I went like anyone else you now, elementary and junior high, then
high school.
Interviewer: “When did you start playing sports?”
1
�I had five brothers of course and when I was real little we lived on a farm and I kind of
hung around with my brothers a lot and whenever they would go play ball-- of course
they were on any team—if anyone would give them a uniform they would play. They
were on church league, industrial leagues or anything. As far as I can remember, I used
to tag them around to the ball parks and everything and every time they would, I grew up
eventually, put me into the field and let me play with them and as soon as one of them
would go out and—second base, they would go out and take batting practice, I would
take their position. 2:04 I kept going with them every year and playing at home with
them and in the winter time, of course, the snow was up over the house, so we would
move furniture and then we would play ball in the house from the living room to the
dining room. I can remember one brother, he was fantastic and the Cincinnati Reds
wanted him, but he got injured in World War II and he’s the one that taught me
everything. He played shortstop and of course that’s what I played. We played all winter
because we just played in the house and that’s all we had in those days. If you had a mitt
and you had a ball, you went out and played ball, but I had to play with the boys because
the girls couldn’t catch me you know. They would say, “don’t play with “Shorty Meyer”
she’s nothing but a tomboy”. In those days no one would play with me and of course I
couldn’t play with the girls anyway. My name was not good and it wasn’t exactly right
for a girl to go out and play ball in those days, so that’s how I got started, with my
brother. 3:03
Interviewer: “When you were in junior high and high school did you have any
chance to play organized sports?”
2
�Yes, I was with sports all through and in senior high they even had a parade and they
picked out the best athletes, a girl and a boy, and I was the best of the girls and they had a
big parade and this was a town of five thousand people and everyone knew what you
were doing almost—they knew when I was going to All American to try out and
everything, so they had a parade for us and I was the athlete of the whole school.
Interviewer: “How old were you when you tried out for the All American?”
Ok, when I tried out for the All American I was only fifteen years old. The way I got into
the All American is my father read in the Cincinnati Inquirer that Betsy Jochum was
going to go and play in the Girls All American Baseball and all these fifteen years I had
been playing with my brothers and everything and I said, “there must be a team that I can
get on somewhere in this place”, and he said, “well, I’ll go up and talk to her parents and
see where she went”. I said, “ok”, so he went up and talked to Betsy Jochum and in those
days it wasn’t easy to go from one place to another hardly. 4:20 Cincinnati was about
thirty-five miles from us, we lived in Aurora, Indiana right on the Ohio River, so he went
up there, my father did, and he got the address of the people, so they said, “you bring her
up, we’re going to try out at Peru and La Salle, Illinois”. They had six ball parks I think
and they said to go up there and try out, so I went up there after we got the address and
they said to come on up, so I went up there and the first day I was so nervous I couldn’t
even hardly catch the ball. All these girls and all this excitement and everything, so my
father said, “we’re going home tomorrow”, and I said, “oh no, I gotta meet all those
people that thought I was going to make it and everything?” He said, “yup, the way you
played today you won’t even sigh a contract or anything”, so I said, “ok, give me one
more day”, so I went the next day and I said, “over on first base is my brother Wally,
3
�second base is my brother----“, and I went on and I was playing with my brothers all this
time, so I didn’t even look at the girls and man, when that ball was hit to me I threw it
over to first and went all around there, so that night I signed the contract. 5:32 I sort of
relaxed and played the way I was supposed to play, so anyway, that’s how I made it.
Interviewer: “And your father thought that was a good idea?”
Yes, he sure did and he was there after I signed the contract. I have a picture of my father
standing there beside me and then he asked if I was going to be in good hands and the
manager said, “yes, she’ll be in good hand and we’ll take care of her”. I had never been
away from home for fifteen years and my mother cried when I left, but anyway a couple
of nice All Americans took me in, Faye Dancer and Pepper Beare, I was on their team
and I went right to Minneapolis. Anyway, they took me in. The chaperones; they help
you if you’re homesick or anything like that, that’s their job. 6:20 I got over it after a
while and I spent a whole year with the All American.
Interviewer: “Now, did you join them after their spring training or were you part
of that?”
After spring training, and then they put you on a team, after I tried out and everything.
Interviewer: “You tried out, but did you go to a spring training with the whole
league there or did you just go to join a team?”
Well, the whole league was there.
Interviewer: “I think in 1944—did they use Wrigley Field that year?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Ok”
4
�After—after we played ball, I went back to school, in the wintertime. We weren’t in the
playoffs or anything. That was in September.
Interviewer: “I was just trying to follow the sequence of events. So did you go to
Chicago to try out or did you first go someplace else?” 7:15
After I got through they told me, at the end of the season or almost to the end, they asked
me to go Chicago with the National League because they need players over there, so then
I went to Chicago and it was the same year, at the end of the year almost, in September,
and they told me to go over there and see them. I went over there and tried out over there
and I made it, but it was just about at the end of the year.
Interviewer: “I was still talking about the beginning of the season.”
The beginning of the season when I went to Peru and La Salle, Illinois—then what they
do after that is put you on a team and that’s when they sent me to Minneapolis. 7:59
Interviewer: “Ok, all the way to Minneapolis.”
After Minneapolis they sent me to Kenosha. I was traded for Liz Mahon, so I went to
Kenosha and played. One or the other, but Minneapolis only lasted one year.
Interviewer: “When you joined the league, did they give you a list of all the rules
and regulations and how you were supposed to behave and the way you were
supposed to dress?”
Oh yes, you had to be in at ten o’clock and when you’re in your own home town, of
course, you’re always with a family and there’s always two of you. They never go in
with one person, so they did put me with a roommate and get me a place to stay in the
town where we stayed, like in Minneapolis or Kenosha. 8:50
Interviewer: “Did they have a dress code that you had to follow?”
5
�Oh yes and you’ve heard this a hundred times, you had to wear a skirt. You could wear
shorts inside when nobody saw you, but you had to wear that skirt and dress up when you
would go outside. Both of us never smoked, but you couldn’t smoke or anything like that
and you had to dress up when you went out into public, and they had the charm school.
When they had the charm school they looked at me and they picked me out of that whole
bunch and used me as an example. I just came up and I wasn’t the type to--I was a
tomboy anyway--dress up anyway, and they would say “Ann you come up here, we’re
going to use you”, so they fixed my hair and fixed me all up and I was a little
embarrassed. I was only fifteen you know, and never been—anyway, they used me as an
example when they had the charm school. 9:42 They would teach you how to walk and
how to sit and when you go to someone’s home they wanted you to be ladies--to be ladies
and play like men, that’s what they wanted me to do, so that’s what I did.
Interviewer: ‘So, you actually got the charm school experience, because a lot of the
players that joined later didn’t have that, but you were still early enough that they
were still doing it.”
It was a good thing and to this day I remember the things they told me and I never forgot
it. How to sit, how to do—and it’s good, some of the education I never had in my life
being on the farm you know.
Interviewer: “Now, were you a starting shortstop? Did you get to play regularly
with the team?”
No, when I started that was a problem, they had too--enough players in those leagues and
they told me to go out there to Chicago and play and get more experience and then you
can come back to the all American. Well, I got more experience and I liked it a lot and I
6
�was playing all the time, so after that I said, “no, I don’t want to go back”. I was familiar
with the team and the league and all the people and Charlie Bidwell was good to me.
10:56 I played for the Bluebirds, Eddie Kolski was good to me and all of them, so I said,
“no, I’m going to stay up here”. They needed players in the All American—see, they
went from underhand and sidearm to overhand and a lot of girls came up to the National
League because they didn’t want to pitch overhand and we had a lot of girls up there. I
said, “hey this is great for me and I’m playing all the time, so I’m staying here”. I made a
good name for myself up there. 11:22
Interviewer: “Ok, you did get to play in some of the games with the All American?”
Oh yes, I was backing up Pepper Beare in shortstop when I was playing in Minneapolis
and when she got hurt I went in, yes I did.
Interviewer: “In Kenosha did you get to play?”
Yes, the same thing there in Kenosha. I didn’t go in all the time as a regular player, but I
used to go in when anybody would get hurt or when they were way ahead and they
wanted to see what I could do and things like that, but I did get to play quite often.
Interviewer: “Were you a good hitter?”
I always betted first or second, I was fast because I always ran from my dad all the time
because I got in trouble on the farm and I had a lot of speed. I slid a lot and I got a lot of
strawberries. Batting, my brothers and them, they never did give me much help because
when we took position I took the infield and they never let me bat. They would go in for
game practice and they never let me bat. I warmed up my brother when one pitched and I
caught a lot and did a lot of infield, but they never let me bat much, so I had to learn that
7
�when I was on the All American. 12:33 That’s the position I was in. Defense, but not
offense, but they were working on it.
Interviewer: “When you were playing for Minneapolis, did you have some long
road trips?”
Did we have long road trips? Well, playing for Minneapolis, I can remember this one—
we were getting on this train, not the bus, the train, and it was a troop train, I’ll never
forget it. Fifteen girls got on that train with these servicemen and it was something else.
I was fifteen years old, so I just got in a corner and watched what was going on. The
guys were wanting you to write to them and asking when they go overseas and stuff like
that. They were giving out addresses and talking to you and stuff, but it was some
experience and I really enjoyed that. That’s the only thing I can remember that really
happened when we were traveling, but otherwise we went on the bus. 13:28
Interviewer: “Did it take a long time to get from Minneapolis to the other places?”
No, from this day I don’t remember, but all of them were pretty much close together the
year I went in 1944. We didn’t have to travel too much, but I can remember going on the
busses and stuff from one place to the other, so it was interesting anyway.
Interviewer: “Tell me a little bit about how the softball leagues in Chicago
worked.”
Oh, in Chicago? In Chicago you only played ball at night and I think you had eight to ten
teams in Chicago and I worked at the Edgewater Beach Hotel during the day. Now this is
exciting because I worked at the reservation office. Now, when the ball players came in
at the Edgewater Beach Hotel, we’re talking about the National League, they came in and
they only played in the daytime because there were no lights at Wrigley Field, so I would
8
�meet them at the door because I knew they were coming in. 14:29 I met Mel Ott and
Harry “The Hat” Walker and all those guys you know, and I was at the door and I met
them and I told them who I was and that I was playing ball. They wanted to come out
and see me play ball because they had nothing to do at night and here I was working
during the day, so I set them up and they took a cab out to watch me play ball and the
first time they watched me they said, “hey come over here. The next time you come to
the hotel I want to show you how to bat”, so they got a bat out and they started showing
me how to stand and bat and they were trying to help me and everything, but it was
exciting and I met the whole team when they came in and had a lot of pictures taken and
autographs and I have several balls from them that are very valuable to me today. I got to
know them well and that was exciting. Whenever they would come into the hotel, and I
knew when they were coming because I was making their reservations, so it was great.
15:24
Interviewer: “So you had a day job, but then did they also pay you to play the ball
games at night?”
Oh yeah, we got paid just like we would in All American. The National League paid the
same and I got the same amount. They made sure that where you were working, that it
was a good place and they were the ones that helped you get the job. There were certain
jobs they didn’t want you to do because it was too hard on you and you couldn’t play
ball. Here I was just sitting at a desk and I didn’t have to use up much energy, so they
placed you where and in jobs so you could still play ball. You had the day free, but you
would go out and play at night, so it was no problem with me to do that.
9
�Interviewer: “When you played for the All American and you had gone in at
fifteen, you weren’t done with high school yet.” 16:27
No, I played all through high school and I was in the National League, but I played in the
summer, then when we had playoffs that would run into September and school was still
going on, I went ahead and finished up the playoffs and then when I went back to school
they let me make that up. They were nice enough to say, “hey you’re two weeks late or
three weeks late”, and they helped me to make it up so I would catch up with the other
students in the high school. I did graduate from high school because of their help and
everything, so I went right through. I was the only one, oh there were two, of nine that
graduated in my family and I was one of them.
Interviewer: “When you were playing in Chicago, where did you live?”
I lived—when I worked for Edgewater Beach they had a an apartment for employees and
I lived there and before that, before I got into Edgewater Beach, we had an apartment and
my father said, “hey, since she’s not traveling, I’m going to send your two sisters”, and
two of my sisters came out to Chicago to live with me. 17:38 She said, “I want you to
take care of Shorty”, that’s what they called me at home, she said, “I want you to take
care of her, so I’m sending you guys out to stay there”, so they got a job, and it was
during the war of course, in an airplane factory, both of them did, and it wasn’t hard to
get a job in Chicago in those days. I went ahead and worked at Edgewater and they
worked at the plane company and they took care of me and when I had to go to the
ballpark I always took the El and I rode place to place around Chicago on the El by
myself at night and you can’t do that today. 18:23
Interviewer: “You can in a lot of Chicago, not all of it”.
10
�Anyway, that’s what I did.
Interviewer: “How long did you play in Chicago?”
I played in Chicago—I played pro ball until 1950. I went to college after high school and
the first year in college, and of course that college that I went to, the same problem I had
all year, girls aren’t supposed to play with boys. I was called into the president’s office
because I was playing ball with a boy on campus. Do you believe that? I was passing
ball with a boy on campus, so they called me into the president’s office and they said,
“we are not allowed to do that here”. It was at Nyack College in Nyack, New York, and I
said, “well, if I can’t keep up in the wintertime because of all the snow and everything,
and all the girls in Florida and California and Phoenix, Arizona and places are playing
year around and they go back to spring training and they’re all in shape and here I am in
snow country and I gotta keep in shape if I want’ a do anything and stay in the league
with the rest of them. I wouldn’t have enough money to come back here next year if I
didn’t make the team.” 19:45 He said, “ok, we’ll change the rules”, so I got to play ball
with the boys and beside that I joined the Y to keep up on the exercise in Nyack, New
York where the college was. I went down there and worked out myself a lot in between,
but when it got warmer I played outside with the boys. So that’s the story on that one.
Interviewer: “All right, then what did you get your degree in at college?”
In college, Christian education and I wanted to be a physical education teacher, then I
met this nice man and went two years to college, three—I know I had one more year to
go and I went ahead and he was one year behind me, so I went to work and helped put
him through and I decided to get married and that was something too because we
announced our engagement and they said, “freshmen aren’t supposed to get married”,
11
�because they only had three years in this college and you had to go three and I went two
years. He said, “I’m not the one that’s announcing it, she’s announcing it and she’s a
sophomore”, so it was all right and they changed the rules on that one too. 20:57 I went
to work and I worked at Lederle’s’in Pearl River, New York and I made Oramycin
capsules in those years and I helped put him through college, so he got to finish.
Interviewer: “What did you do after that?”
After we went to Nyack, we settled down in a town, after he graduated, in 1952 we
settled down in Ashland, Ohio. Now, Ashland is about 20,000 people between Cleveland
and Columbus. He was born in Mansfield and he was a professional photographer, so he
got a job there in Ashland and we settled down and we bought a home and we stayed
there and raised two children, two boys, and we lived there from 1952 until 1978 and
then we moved to Tucson, Arizona in 1978 and that’s where we live now. 22:02
Interviewer: “I guess, while you were playing and going off to college and after you
finished playing, did the people around you know that you had been a professional
athlete?”
No, they didn’t believe me. My boy, when he went to school, he said, “my mom was a
professional ball player”, they had show and tell and he was in the first or second graded
I thing, and he said, “my dad is a professional photographer”, and he gets up and they
didn’t believe his mom was a professional ball player and I would tell the neighbors, “I
used to play pro ball” and they would say, “oh yeah, my mom was a garbage collector”,
and they didn’t believe it., so that’s what we went through all these years until the movie
came out in 1992 and that was different now. They called me up two or three times in
Ashland, Ohio, they wanted me to come back, so this October the 9th, I go back to
12
�Ashland, Ohio and I will be in the Sports Hall of Fame this year. 23:06 They all believed
me after the movie came out and now they want me in the hall of fame, so that’s quite an
honor.
Interviewer: “Were you involved at all in any of the events surrounding the
movie?”
Around the National, two blocks from the biggest park, they had softball tournaments,
industrial, in Ashland, Ohio where I was, they were famous for softball and they had it
from all over the United States coming there and I’d go down to the ball park and watch
them all the time and meet the players that come in and everything and you didn’t have to
pay or anything. Of course some weekends when they had professional teams come in I
did pay, but I went down there and got to meet them and I told them I played bal and
stuff. I went out and passed and at that time I could still play pretty good. Remember, I
quit during my prime time and I was only twenty-one years old when I quit in 1950, so I
could still play ball. I also played for an industrial league. I got a job in Ashland and
they made leather jackets, it was called Kesko and they said, “hey Ann, you played ball,
you can play ball for me”, and I said, “ok, I’ll come out”, so they put me on first base.
24:15 It was the first night, this is an industrial league, and I was playing third base and
the ball was hit to me and the girl was going into home and I threw that ball into home
and it hit her chest, it hit the ground and they called 911, I’d of liked a killed her, so that
was the end of me playing ball for the industrial league. These were like the housewives
you know and I didn’t know it, I just went in there and did my thing and I couldn’t play
there anymore. 24:40
Interviewer: “Did you ever do any coaching?”
13
�Yes I did, they wanted me to coach the girls. I went down at the park where they played
and helped with them once and a while, but I didn’t do much because I didn’t have much
patience, but I told them what I knew and everything, and the Y in Ashland, I went for
volleyball in the wintertime and basketball, so I played volleyball and I traveled all over
Ohio and we got for that Y and I don’t know how many, but I played like a pro once and
I hate to lose and these were a bunch of housewives and this girl beside me couldn’t hit it
too good, so I would get in front of her and hit the ball, and I got in a lot of trouble doing
that you know because once a pro always a pro. You play so hard and I don’t care what I
do, I play—I put everything in it and my name got to be mud after a while, but I stuck
with it. They got to know me and I was pretty good, so they hung onto me because I
helped the team. 25:48 I enjoyed traveling and playing with the women. We did that
from 1963 all the way until I left in 1978. I traveled all over in the wintertime.
Interviewer: “You were pretty constantly active in sports the whole time, so leaving
a professional league didn’t stop you, you kind of just kept going and in various
places and in college you kind of made them do it your way.”
Exactly, mom could never find me, I had a bat and a ball and I was in the neighborhood
and anybody would catch me, they would pick up a team, the boys, I was right there. We
had to play in the street a lot of the time because they didn’t have ball fields or anything
and every time we hit the ball and a car came by we had to get off the street, this is home
plate and we would get off the street right in the middle of a game and we had to move
over and let the car go by and then we would go back out in the street you know. 26:37
We played in the street a lot of times and you might have one or two cars go by. They
didn’t have many, but that’s what I did. As soon as I would get up in the morning as a
14
�kid, I was all ready to go out and play ball. My mom had to send my sisters out there to
find out what street we were playing on and what team I was on , but I loved it so much
that and that was the only way I could play and I just went out every day to see who I
could play with.
Interviewer: “When they made the movie, A League of Their Own, they tried to get
together a bunch of the former players and they were involved in different events
connected with the movie. Were you a part of any of that?”
When they made the movie I signed up to go to Evansville, Indiana where they were for
their spring training, because I’m from Indiana. Anything in Indiana, like I left all my
stuff in South Bend, Indiana for the historical society because I’m from Indiana and I’m
proud of that. 27:36 I signed up to go, but at the time I was working at, it was like
Kroger’s, I worked fifteen years in Tucson, Arizona, it was called Alpha Beta and later it
was called Abco and I worked at that store, it was like Kroger like I say and a grocery
store it was and I was working—I started as a courtesy clerk and they were right across
the street from where I was living and I would go over there every day and say, “hey, can
I get a job?” They would say that they didn’t have anything and I said, “well, I’ll even
scrub the floors”, and I just wanted to get in because I knew what I could do. One day
after—I would say almost a year I tried to get in there and they said, “hey Ann, I’m
getting tired of looking at you, I’ll give you a job as a courtesy clerk, so I said, “ok, I’ll
take it, what is it?” I didn’t even know what it was. I knew what a bagger was, but I
didn’t know what a courtesy clerk was, so he said, “you just take this uniform and get
ready and come over tomorrow and you’ll be a courtesy clerk and I’ll teach you what to
do”. 28:38 I said, “ok, I just live across the street”, so I got this nice uniform and I put it
15
�on and I went over there and he said, “you’re going to be bagging these groceries you
know and you’re going to be pushing those carts”, and I was about fifty years old at that
time and I was the oldest bagger in the state of Arizona, so I didn’t care and they had all
these teenagers and this is something else, so I went over there and I got to learn how to
bad, they taught me how to bag and stuff and I was going so fast they said, “that lady
must be on dope”, because they never saw anybody move like that and the teenagers were
just messing around and all they wanted was the money and they didn’t want to work and
I was working. I said to the manager, “I’d like forty-eight hours”, and he said, “we don’t
give courtesy clerks forty-eight hours, but I watched you work and I’ll call up the office
in California and I’ll see if I can get you forty-eight hours”, so he called up after a couple
of weeks or so and he said, “I got permission and you can work forty-eight hours a
week”, so I said, “ok”, so that’s what I did, forty-eight hours and I worked there for
fifteen years. 29:47 I got so I even taught courtesy clerks eight years and like I say, I
worked there fifteen years and I really enjoyed it. Moving fast was just the way I was
brought up. I move fast all the time, but they weren’t use to that because people there
don’t work like that and I was because of being so active getting those carts. I would go
out and get maybe eight or ten at a time and these people would bring in four or five you
know. He liked the way I worked, so I got to work forty-eight hours.
Interviewer: “Now we got into this subject when I asked you about going to
Evansville or you signed up to go to Evansville?”
I signed up to go to Evansville and my husband had open-heart surgery at the time and I
didn’t get there. I was working at the store, that’s why I got that store, so I stayed there,
16
�but I wanted to go to be in the movie, but I didn’t make it. 30:46 At the end of the
movie and stuff.
Interviewer: “Now, since you only played with the all Americans for one year, how
did that combination of playing in the all American and then playing in the Chicago
League, what effect did that have on you?”
Well, because I was so young, I was still learning and a lot of those girls that came up
there, they had been playing for a few years and I was working on experience and I
wanted to get up there where the rest of them were you know and I wanted to stay in the
league for along time, as long as I could and that was the thing I was working on. The
only way you get experience is to play and I was sitting on the ---and that’s what the
manager told me, “Ann you’re good, but you need more experience”, so you’ll get it at
Chicago and I did. That’s what I liked and I stayed there and I got to know everyone and
everyone knew me and that’s why I decided to stay in Chicago when they wanted me
back. I said, “no, I’m going to stay here”, so that’s why, experience is what I was
working for at that time.
Interviewer: “You’re playing professional sports as a woman fairly early on, the
late forties and early fifties, did you see yourself as any kind of pioneer or didn’t you
think about that?”
I didn’t think about that, I went year to year, I had fun and I enjoyed it. Shorty Decker
and me and in Chicago on the Queens, we had more double plays than anyone in the
whole league and she took short stop and I took second because she was a little better and
short stop and she was older and I could play second and I could play third. Finally the
girl on third got to be forty some years old they put me on third and I almost got it down
17
�my throat between short stop and third, but I learned when to come in and when to go
back and I ended up playing third at that time. 32:51
Interviewer: “It makes for an interesting story and a little bit different one, so I
would just like to thank you for coming in and telling it.”
I enjoyed it very much and thank you very much.
18
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-02
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-58_APetrovic
Title
A name given to the resource
Petrovic, Ann (Interview transcript and video), 2010
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Petrovic, Ann
Description
An account of the resource
Ann Petrovic was born in Aurora, Indiana, in 1928. She grew up playing ball with her brothers and played on different girls' teams in school. When she was fifteen, she heard about tryouts for the All American Girls Professional Baseball League being held in Illinois, tried out and was assigned to a team in Minneapolis which soon moved to Kenosha. After playing in the league's first season, she signed with a professional softball team in Chicago, where she played until 1950.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Women
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-08-07
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4