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Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans’ History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Marilyn Jenkins
Interviewed by: Frank Boring
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer August 15, 2008
Interviewer: “ Marilyn, if we could begin with your name and where and when were
you born?” (02:46:25)
I’m Marilyn Jenkins and I was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on September 18, 1934.
(02:46:29)
Interviewer: ”What was your early childhood like?” (02:46:38)
Well, I had one sister who married when I was four years old and so I was like an only
child within a sense. Probably that was good because times were touch then coming out
of the Depression and anyway, I grew up on the near south side of Grand Rapids near the
corner of Cass and Hall Street, which was about a long block and a railroad track from
South Field where the “Chicks” played. I had a good childhood. During the war dad
would pile the neighborhood kids in the car and take them to the lake swimming etc. I
have a lot of fond memories of my childhood. Growing up in the neighborhood, it was a
neighborhood then and you knew everybody. There was a lot of porch activity at night
and it was a good time. (00:02:46:48)
Interviewer: “What did your father do for a living?” (02:47:42)
MY father sold meat for Swift and Company and then again coming out of the
depression, at night he would cut the meat for Jim Nader at Nader’ss grocery store on
Hall Street, which was right around the corner. I kind of fed into that too because I
would go and visit him there and he would bring me candy bars. (02:47:43)
Interviewer: “How about your mother?” (02:48:05)
She was pretty much a housewife except I remember for a short period of time during
WWII she was a “Rosie the Riveter” at a local place here in Grand Rapids. I don’t
remember what it was called at that time, but I remember her in the bib overalls and the
hat. (00:02:48:06)
Interviewer: “Just like the picture.” (02:48:23)
Just like the picture, right. She didn’t like it, but she did it for a while. (02:48:24)
Interviewer: “When was your first exposure to baseball, or sports of any kind?”
(02:48:35)
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�Well, dad was a real sports fan and frequently on Sunday afternoons he would take me to
Valley Field to watch the black leagues play over there and I met some of those fellows
that played there. In fact I met one just the other day. Anyway, I liked baseball—he
taught me to like baseball—he played catch with me and all that. He wanted a boy, but
he got a girl and consequently he was doing something in his short life that he lived after
I was born. (02:48:38)
Interviewer: “This period of time in America was very difficult economically. How
did your family fare?” (02:49:11)
Well, dad worked two jobs and mother went to work there for a period of time. We were
coming out of the Depression and I don’t know that I was anticipated product there. I
don’t know that they wanted another child, but dad would—I think we fared—we always
had enough to eat. Dad would exchange coupons for meat, gas and all that. For gas he
would exchange with neighbors. They would switch back and forth because he had all
the meat, because he was in meat. We got along all right, we weren’t wealthy by any
means, but we made it. (02:49:15)
Interviewer: “You mentioned the black leagues, but were there other baseball
related activities going on around you?” 02:50:00)
I don’t recall any. (02:50:04)
Interviewer: “So the exposure was through your father and seeing these other
players?”(02:50:07)
I was always interested. I remember I use to—all sports—scour the Sunday papers for
pictures. I’m a U of M fan and I would study those and baseball—different seasons and
different sports and I really got into it big time. 02:50:11)
Interviewer: “Did you have a radio?” (02:50:30)
Yes, we had a radio. (02:50:31)
Interviewer: “So, did you hear broadcasts?” (02:50:33)
Broadcasts of sports. I would sit and cross my legs in front of the radio and watch—
listen to them. (02:50:35)
Interviewer: “You said watch, this is before TV.” (02:50:40)
This was watch—we had one of the upright radios. (02:50:45)
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�Interviewer: “I understand from an earlier conversation that tragedy struck your
family when you were still quite young and in your teens. What actually
happened?” (02:50:50)
Dad—when I was thirteen, I think the summer when I was thirteen, he was diagnosed
with Leukemia and that fall he passed away and of course that changed the whole
dynamics of the family. Now there was just mother and I because my sister had married
a Navy man and they were stationed in Long Beach. Anyway, there was mother and I
and it changed significantly. I remembered we struggled. I think she got a small pension
because he had been in WWI, dad had, and he had been injured in WWI, nothing that
affected his walking or his thinking or anything, but I think it was frozen feet and a few
other things. Anyway, it changed our lives and what it did to me was—I was thirteen and
I was going to South High School. I had to cut right through the alley to get to the high
school and I got a job. I don’t know if I was thirteen or fourteen, but I got a job up on
Division at a sundry store, a Quick Mart today, and I worked there, not during the
summer because that was the “Chicks”, but I worked there after school and I think I was
making 50 or 40 cents an hour maybe, but it helped. Mother was—one thing I remember
is that we had a car, we had a 1939 Chevrolet and if my memory is correct, in 1947 when
my dad died, cars were in great demand. It was in the garage, mother didn’t drive, which
was not unusual for women at that time and I wasn’t driving yet, and she had them lined
up at her door to buy that car. I remember she got a thousand dollars out of it and it was
eight years old. Anyway, that helped. A thousand dollars went a long way then.
Anyway, I got a job and I worked right through graduation from high school. (02:01:00)
Interviewer: “What did you—I realize you were very young at that time and young
people don’t always know what they want to do with their lives, but what were you
thinking about? What were you going to do?” (02:53:17)
What was I going to do? Right. Well, one thing I had to do was I had to play baseball.
Anything more secure or substantial than that wasn’t on my money. I knew there was no
money to go to college, there weren’t scholarships and all that business and in what? I
wasn’t qualified. I was a good student in high school, but anyway, I had to play ball.
When the ball league ended in 1954 I went to x-ray school. I became a radiology
technologist at Butterworth Hospital and I worked at that until 1972 I think, but in that
interim period of time, I also went to Community College, I went nights. (02:53:28)
Interviewer: “Lets get back to that a little later. You’re in high school and at what
point did you discover that there was a baseball league? That there was a women’s
league?” (02:54:39)
I have to go way back. In 1945, dad was still alive, and he saw in the Sunday paper that
there was going to be a women’s baseball league coming to Grand Rapids and it was
going to be at South Field, which was just a short distance from my house. Summers
were kind of—I remember playing softball at Jefferson School grounds, but he told me
that I should go over to the field and see if I could get a job, doing what I didn’t know at
eleven years old. (02:54:41)
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�Interviewer: “Let me go back. You said you were playing softball?”
Yes, I played on the school grounds there.
Interviewer: “But there was no team?”
No, just the neighborhood boys, and we set up teams and played there a lot. (02:55:56)
Interviewer: “Were you the only girl?”
I was the only girl.
Interviewer: “So, you already felt that you liked the game?
Yes, I liked the game.
Interviewer: “What position were you playing when you played with the boys?”
Any position. It was just a lot of neighborhood kids and we had a good time.
Interviewer: “So there was no official high school girls baseball team?”
No, in high school at South, our gym activities included square dancing, kickball,
badminton, volleyball, but nothing organized. There may have been archery that was
organized, but nothing that interested me. 2:56
Interviewer: “So now your father sees that there is a team in Grand Rapids and he
suggests to you to go and check this out. Tell us about the day you went there.”
Well, I don’t remember the specific day I went there, but I was pretty timid and I met the
groundskeeper there, I didn’t know anybody, it wasn’t a case of who you know, I didn’t
know anyone, but I just went over there and I met the grounds keeper and his name was
“Chick Batts”. Has anybody else mentioned that name to you? He was probably a fifty
year old man at that time and he had a little helper by the name of Pete something, I don’t
remember, but the interesting thing about “Chick” was that he only had one arm and I
was amazed as I watched him throw a ball by switching the mitt between his underarm of
the stub to his good arm. Anyway, I asked him if there was any work I could do and he
said, “sure”. 2:57 Well, the first job I did was—this is right at the beginning of the
league now, they had cut the grass out because South Field was a football field at that
time. They cut the grass out and the diamond, the dirt was full of stones so I picked
stones out of the diamond. I don’t know how long I did that. Another job I had was
cleaning under the bleachers, which was kind of a fun job because you would find nickels
and dimes out of people’s pockets. Anyway, in that period of time, it was just a short
period of time, and somebody, I don’t recall who it was, asked me if I would be batgirl
so, would I be batgirl, of course I would be batgirl. I was privileged to be in that
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�position. I became batgirl and I was batgirl from the time I was eleven, which was 1945,
until 19—through 1951. 2:58
Interviewer: “Back up just a minute. During the period of time that you were
picking up the stones and all that, did you actually meet the players?”
Absolutely.
Interviewer: “Let’s talk about that.”
Talk about being in awe, I got into the game—I don’t know who was batgirl in the
beginning, but I became batgirl pretty quick. Anyway, I got into the games free, that was
Dad’s purpose in sending me over there so, if I worked I could get into the games free.
These women, I was just in awe and thunderstruck by them. A bunch of wonderful
women, and I remember they were nice to me too, every one of them was. When I saw
that Connie Wisnewski back in 1945, it’s too bad that Connie is still not alive because
she would be a wonderful interview. She was the pitcher at the beginning there, and
Gabby Ziegler and I don’t know, I could go on with lots of names, but I was just
awestruck by them. 2:59
Interviewer: “So, I don’t expect you to remember exactly this moment, but when
the first games were being played, what was your reaction to seeing these women
playing baseball?”
Just astounded. Dad would come over to a few games too. He had to make sure that I
was in an all right sitting there because he was that kind of a dad. Anyway, it was just
amazing, and then to see the people in the stands was another amazing think. Have you
been by South Field here?
Interviewer: “Yes.”
Of course you can’t tell where it was right now. It had a short right field porch, but
anyway—when I think back to the period of time when I was batgirl, the box seats that
were right around where I was sitting, the prominent people in Grand Rapids were there
and they were supporting this at that time. 3:00 The stands would be full and at one time
they built more stand out in the left field because it used to be that you could hit the ball
forever out there. The women playing ball—it was phenomenal. I think it progressed
though, it progressed from a game of softball to a game of baseball, we know that.
Interviewer: “Yes, because they were pitching underhand and side hand and
eventually overhand.”
In 1947 it went sidearm and then overhand, that’s when Beansie came in, she never
would have made it if it hadn’t and she says that. 3:01
Interviewer: “She did say that, yes. Did you have any inkling at this point you’re
the batgirl there, that you could eventually play baseball?”
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�Absolutely, and I had a lot of opportunity too, that’s one thing that was given to me.
Batting practice sometimes, as I got a little older, I’d throw batting practice and
sometimes I would even catch at batting practice, that’s how I ended up being catcher, or
I would roam in the outfield. Oh yeah, I had to—if I hadn’t, not that I was that good, but
if I hadn’t had the opportunity in 1952, that’s when I graduated from high school, to play,
that probably would have been the biggest disappointment of my life. 3:02
Interviewer: “This might be a stupid question, but what does a batgirl do?”
Well, a batgirl goes out and gets the bat after the hitter hits, you see them in the major
leagues today too, they have batboy on their back, and you got out and get the bat or they
bring the umpire balls, or they also, to get into this a little bit more, you shine the shoes,
you carry the bats and balls down to the field from the club house, and you run errands,
and you’re in very close contact with the ball players and man did I admire them.
Interviewer: “From that period, and I realize that we’re going back quite a distance
and you were a very young girl at that time, what were some of the things that you
saw that really amazed you? I understand that you’re in awe and you’re watching
these women, but somebody hit a homerun or something happened.” 3:03
Well, it would hard for me to be specific, but when I saw the home runs, I saw the no
hitters, which in softball was not uncommon, and the competition, that was—I think I
really developed the competitive spirit then, although I think it’s calmed down as I’ve
gotten older. It was phenomenal. I can tell you, but maybe I should wait until later, one
of my biggest thrills playing. So you want to hear it now?”
Interviewer: “Sure, while you’re in the mood.”
At one point, I don’t remember if it was the last year or the year before—1953 or 1954,
we converted to a regulation baseball. Now I loved that because my hands were small
and I could throw it better and everything. I think my first time at bat, if I remember
correctly, with a regulation baseball; I hit one out of the park. Oh man, what a thrill and I
don’t remember if it was South Bend or Kalamazoo, it was one of those two cities. That
was a thrill.
Interviewer: “Going back again to being a batgirl. You were an only child
basically, your father died while you were very young, you’re struggling with your
mom to survive, but you go to this baseball team and you were batgirl. These were
amazing women, did you get a sense of family or a feeling of family?” 3:04
Maybe a little bit, I never thought of it that way, but I was batgirl when dad died and I
remember Dotty Hunter, our chaperone, was living in town then, and I remember she
came to see me then and man, that meant a lot. They sent me cards etc., and yeah, they
were sort of my family. I never thought of it that way. That was my purpose in life at
that time other than looking after my mother at home. 3:05
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�Interviewer: “When did it—did you develop an idea that you wanted to play on the
team or did something just happen, how did that transition from batgirl to trying
out?”
Well, as I said, I had been terribly disappointed, but I was encouraged by many of them
along the way too. I had a pretty good arm, not for pitching because I didn’t have good
control, but it was something that I had to do. It was a huge part of my life after dad died
and maybe even before. You brought up family and that could be it.
Interviewer: “Did you consciously, as you’re watching, you have a job to do of
course, you’ve the bats and all this and we can’t downplay this because it’s an
important part of the game and you have to do these things, but were there
moments when you thought—I’m going to do that?”
I don’t know if I ever thought that, but I knew that I wanted to play. I had some thrills,
Beansie probably told you about her favorite story about her game in Kalamazoo—well I
was catching that game and I wanted to do it, in fact, if I had a choice when I graduated
from high school of playing for the “Chicks” or going to college, I’d have taken the
“Chicks”. Later on I probably would have taken going to college, but I did that anyway.
3:06
Interviewer: “So, what was the actual transition? When did this transition from
batgirl to—did you have to tryout?”
Yes, I had to go through that and there were others trying out too. It was in the spring of
1952 was when I was graduating from high school and there were other people there
trying out. 3:07
Interviewer: “What were the tryouts like?”
Well, they put you through the drills.
Interviewer: “So you were at the same field you were at before?”
South
field—at this point the league had changed significantly and it was at South Field. There
were local girls trying out. too.
Interviewer: “About how many do you think?”
About ten.
Interviewer: “So, now you got the baseball field, the manager, was he the one that
was setting everything up?
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�Yes.
Interviewer: “So what did you have to do to tryout?”
They would hit fly balls, you would bat, you would take infield practice, they would talk
to you and I think one of the things, as the league was losing its popularity there, which it
did significantly we know that, they wanted a local girl, which makes sense to me. They
figured I would bring in some people, but I don’t know if I did or not. Getting back
there a little bit, I remember when it was in June of 1952 we were playing—I remember
my first game well, but anyway, it was a matter of if I was going to play or graduate from
high school. Well, I did the smart thing and I graduated. I went through the ceremony.
It was a quandary. My first game I played was at Bigelow Field, I’m sure it was,
anyway, I remember well the first batter up was Dotty Key of the Rockford Peaches. I
was playing center field then and she hit a line drive right smack at me. 3:08
I think the thing was going up and man, am I glad I caught it. If I hadn’t, it would have
gone to the fence and been history. That’s just a side there. I had to play, that was the
key. I had to have the opportunity and I’m still thankful for it. 3:09
Interviewer: “Your first game and you caught the line drive, wow.”
It came smack at me and if it had gone over my head, it would have gone forever at
Bigelow Field. 3:10
Interviewer: “How do you feel about your first game?”
Nervous, very nervous. Here I was—the gals were all nice to me, they had known me a
long time, but here I was having the first opportunity to do what I wanted to do, full
uniform, full everything and butterflies.
Interviewer: “But, when you caught that ball?”
That helped. That helped a lot. That was the big difference there.
Interviewer: “ I played little league and so I do understand the camaraderie. I have
never played professionally, but I know that when I pitched and I got right into that
zone and the guy swung, it was a feeling of excitement and when you caught that
ball?”
It was a feeling. You hit that—like this rookie catcher for the Tigers the other night, his
first hit is that triple that wins the game. He’ll never forget that, he’ll never forget that.
If he never gets another hit, he’ll never forget. 3:11
Interviewer: “Tell me about the uniform.”
Well, I think the uniform was in the 1940’s a significant part of the drawing of the
crowds, the fans that came to the game. As I remember the 40’s, women didn’t wear
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�shorts, not in public, I don’t know if they wore them, but they didn’t wear shorts in
public. You come out with this—a lot of these gals were really attractive, too-- and you
come out in this short uniform with these good looking legs and that uniform was it.
There whole purpose of developing this league, or beginning this league, that uniform
was a significant part of it, as I see it. 3:12
Interviewer: “I grew up in the 60’s when the mini skirt became very popular and
this is pretty close to being a mini skirt and this is the 40’s and 50’s.”
Right, I mean the legs are bare from up here to the top of your socks and you know it’s
silly to talk about that today, isn’t it? It’s history I know, not that I wear shorts that much
anymore, but what you see the girls in today.
Interviewer: “Then it was significant, because it was something you didn’t see
normally. Rosemary talked about how she was embarrassed to come out.”
I sensed that because I had the experience before, you’re embarrassed.
Interviewer: “What about as a practical, this is the part that always amazed me,
because I’ve seen pictures and film footage of girls, I should say women, sliding into
a base. Now, the men had these long protected pants. What was that like?” 3:13
You know, I think it was something that—it wasn’t pleasant and I had some pretty good
“strawberries”, as we called them, but it was expected of us. That was—I think and I can
say this with a reasonable amount of certainty too, that if you would have put these
women in 1945, in a pant, forget it, it wouldn’t have worked. That’s the way I see it. I
would have been easier on their legs—I think that was—I’ve heard Dotty Hunter talk
about this. That was the magic. Phil Wrigley was really sharp and his advisors there, the
way they put things together. The movie depicted that well too. 3:14
Interviewer: “We’ll talk about that a little later. So, you got through your first
game. What was the reaction of your fellow teammates to the fact that you caught
that ball?”
I don’t know that they reacted because they expected me to do it. That’s what I was out
there for. I wasn’t any hero. They’re pros and they were good ball players. I wish there
was more footage, film footage, of some of those games. 3:14
Interviewer: “But, the cameras were there on occasion, right?”
They were there on occasion, right. I remember seeing the only motion picture, so to
speak, it was the Kalamazoo Klouters, I’m sure you’re aware of that aren’t you?
Interviewer: “We have a whole list of all the teams, yes.”
It’s one that Kalamazoo put out and that’s the one thing we’ve seen in the last few years
here, but there wasn’t a lot. There were stills, but think back to what film was like then.
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�My colored pictures that I took in the early fifties are kind of faded. 3:15
Interviewer: “ So, lets go through some of the games you played. You got through
the first one, and I imagine your confidence level must have gotten better, so what
were the other games like?”
Well, I played that first game in center field, but I actually was a catcher, I had been
made into a catcher, and one of the first games I caught, Marge Silvestri was pitching and
I’m not exaggerating, this was overhand, she had a drop ball that dropped 8-12 inches
and of course I didn’t have any experience calling a game so to speak, so she called the
game from the mound and told me what she was going to throw, and we won. That was a
big thrill too, catching, I came through it pretty good. I don’t have any trouble with my
knees so to speak and the only thing I have is a crooked finger right here that was
dislocated and never put back in, but I loved catching once I got into it. 3:16
Interviewer: “I never could understand it myself. I was a pitcher.”
You’re part of the game. With every pitch you’re part of the game.
Interviewer: “What were some of the games like? You quoted one already.”
I have a problem pulling that out. They were competitive. I don’t think I specify any
particular games. I can’t.
Interviewer: “Well, who were the main rivals?”
Oh, the main rivals, toward the end—Fort Wayne, Fort Wayne always had a good team,
Rockford always had a good team, I think those were the main rivals as I remember.
Interviewer: “The one game that Beans was talking about, you were catching. Let’s
go into detail about that particular game.”
Well, here’s the deal that happened. Mamie Redman was pretty much the regular
catcher and I never—my statistics—I caught a lot of games, but Mamie would go back to
college when the playoffs started, so I was thrown in as the catcher. She was much more
experienced than I was and I tell her to this day—“Mamie, I could hit better and run
faster”. 3:17 So, Mamie went back to college and I was thrown in to be the catcher and
it was a championship game in the playoffs that year that Beansie pitched and it was in
Kalamazoo and it was forty degrees. It was really cold, really cold. Anyway, and I don’t
want to take away from her story, but she struck out that last batter and we won it. That
was probably both of our biggest thrills.
Interviewer. “What about the tension? That was the playoffs, what did you
experience?”
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�A lot of tension. The one thing that I always thought and I still think to this day,
catcher’s gloves were hard to break in and we used the regular catcher’s glove—hard to
break in and they were expensive. The first one I bought, which we had to buy ourselves,
burned up in the fire at Bigelow and I had to buy another one. 3:18 Well, it wasn’t
broken in and Beansie thought the ball popped out of my mitt too much. I had a crease in
it and in fact, that glove is in the museum here in town now and you can still see that
crease. When they had that exhibit I noticed it and I could never work that out. They
weren’t as flexible as today’s. Anyway, that three-two pitch that she threw, there was a
lot of tension. Beansie was kind of nonchalant on the mound, tall, both she and Connie
Wisnewski probably were two of the taller ones in the league. Anyway, she was
nonchalant and she fired it and it stuck in my glove. That ball is in Cooperstown today,
right where it should be. 3:19
Interviewer: “What were the crowds like when you first started?”
They were phenomenal. 10,000 people at South Field, I don’t know where they put them
all, but going back, that’s wartime again. Tickets were cheap, people didn’t have cars,
but it was on the near south side and a lot of people could walk to the games, including
me. Anyway, it really, really was—I think it hit its real popularity in the late 40’s after
the war, but then as cars became more available and television hit the scene, it had an
affect on it. I think historians say that television and availability of the auto, really
changed the success of the league. 3:20
Interviewer: “Just a quick question, how much was your salary working as a
professional?”
I think it was fifty-five dollars a week, which wasn’t bad.
Interviewer: “That was a lot of money back then.”
It was a lot of money back then, yes.
Interviewer: “And that was helping to supplement your family, your mother?”
Right. Keep me going. As you get a little older and in your teens, you need things. You
think you do anyway.
Interviewer: “What did you do with your money?”
Well, I don’t think I had that much, I’m sure. While I was playing, my mother had
remarried, so I had a stepfather, so my money I used for myself. Whatever I needed. I
think I bought a car. A hundred dollar whopper.
Interviewer: “While you were playing as a professional baseball player, did you get
an opportunity for travel?” 3:21
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�Yes we did, we traveled a lot on road trips. One thing I will say—even when I was
batgirl, after my dad died Dotty Hunter was a remarkable woman, she was a Canadian,
I’m sure you know more about her maybe than I do—anyway, she was out chaperone and
I think in the summer of 1948, she took me on a road trip and I think it was to Racine,
Wisconsin. Now I hadn’t, we didn’t travel back then, and the one thing I remember
about it—I was there and somebody famous died. She took care of me—in 1948 I was
fourteen. I had a room in a hotel, with a cardboard suitcase with stickers on it. It was a
wonderful experience. 3:22
Interviewer: “Later on you’re playing professionally, do you travel also?”
We traveled either by bus or the last couple years, I think we were in these cars and on
the side of one of the cars it said, “Here come the Grand Rapids Chicks”.
Interviewer: “So, during that period of time then, it was the first time you had been
outside Grand Rapids?”
Well, very far outside Grand Rapids. When my dad died in 1947, he was buried in
Allendale, but no we didn’t do that—you didn’t have drive-in, you didn’t have
McDonald’s, you didn’t have all that stuff.
Interviewer: “Did you travel out of the country?”
No, I never did.
Interviewer: “I know they had the American and the Cuban leagues.”
I think Beansie did. 3:23
Interviewer: “You had mentioned earlier about the crowds being huge, 10,000
people. Did you notice the drop off?”
Absolutely, I noticed it to the point where, as 1952 was approaching, I was thinking as
the crowds were dropping off, I might never have the opportunity to play because they
might end the league and by 1954 we could really see that coming. One of the things I
remember, was one of my last paychecks was handed out to me in one dollar bills. That
tells you a lot. That even told me a lot as a kid because I was only nineteen when this
was all over. 3:24
Interviewer: “I know that when we interviewed Rosemary, she was taken
completely by surprise of course and she only played at the last.”
Yes, she was only there the last three months or so and that was the last season. No, I
wasn’t taken by surprise at all. There were rumblings about this—they tried different
cities, but each city had its core fan base. There were fan clubs and all that and it didn’t
surprise me, really at all. I could see it coming.
12
�Interviewer: “Well, if you did see it coming, were you thinking about alternatives?”
3:25
Probably, quietly—what I did during the years that I played—in the winter I would work
at Wilson athletic goods—I think that was the only place I worked. It was a job you
could get making golf clubs, putting grips on them—a dirty job, a dirty job, standing in a
spot where the glue would drip and your shoes would be stuck to the floor, but when I
think back on that, it was piecework and it was good money—good money. When it was
over with I had to do something and I had been encouraged—I was a good student in
high school and I had been encouraged to do something. Well, Beansie got into x-ray, I
don’t know how she did, but she encouraged me and I got into it and actually worked at
it—I started in 1955 with my training, that went through 1957 and then I became an RT,
a Registered Technologist, and then after that I started going to night school and then I
while I was going to night school, I worked for Dr. Stonehouse and Dawson, right over
here in the Medical Arts building. I completed Community College and then I went back
to Butterworth Hospital and I got into the teaching program there, of x-ray students.
3:26 I had a degree then etc. I probably shouldn’t say this, but I got very disillusioned
in the 70’s and I might have been an activist too in the 70’s, but I just was dismayed with
patient care. That was after Medicare had come in and the situation kind of changed, but
we won’t go into that. Anyway, then I left that and I went to work for a person injury
attorney in town. Bill Reamon, he has passed away, but he was one of the hot shots in
town and I had a lot of respect for him. I worked for him from 1972 through 1977 and
then that firm split and then I did a lot of work for other attorneys because I had learned
to put together a settlement brochure that was quite popular with them at that time. 3:27
I worked for Bill up through 1988 part time, but also in 1981 I started doing estate sales
in town. I was always interested in antiques so, I was doing estate sales and I am still
doing them today. In fact I’m working on a big one right now. 3:28
Interviewer: “Looking back on the last year, 1954, you said that you heard the
rumbling and you kind of figured that this was starting to happen and you started
to think about what you are going to do next. How did it actually happen to you?
How did you physically know? Was it a letter? How did you know that it was over
with?”
I think it was through the press. I don’t remember a letter or anything. 3:29 Maybe, but
I don’t know. If there was one—in 1978 I donated all my stuff to the public museum
here and it would be in there if there was. I don’t remember that.
Interviewer. “What was your reaction?”
Well, I expected it. You can’t deny what you expect can you? It wasn’t the end of the
world for me. I was nineteen years old and I had to do something with my life anyway—
the funs not going to go on forever, right? Maybe, if you get the right job. Anyway I just
went on. Beansie was terribly disappointed and she expressed that to you, and I’m sure a
13
�lot of the others were too. It was like—it was a fact of life, but she stayed here and she
has done well here in town. 3:29
Interviewer: “Looking back, how do you think the specific experience of baseball
affected you and the person you are today?”
Well, I think probably significant to that was and to how it affected me was that it made
me competitive, but I think in a good way. It also taught me winning and losing and
winning isn’t everything. The way you lose can mean a lot too. I said that before about
winning and losing and competitive—having the opportunity to meet all these wonderful
women, who at that time that the league ended, we had no idea that all this would be
happening. It was over, it was over, but as out association got going and we got—I only
saw the local people here after that, but when the association got going, we have had
more fun at these reunions than you can believe. 3:30 I wish some of you could have
been at the reunion in Fort Wayne in, I want to say, 1984. There was more enthusiasm
there and more good times. There were other ones too, we had a wonderful one in Grand
Rapids in 2001 which Dolly Wisniewski was the chair person of and she said we helped
her, but I don’t know if we did that much, but basically it taught me a lot. It taught me
how to travel, how to pack a suitcase, which I don’t know today, how to eat out, because
we didn’t eat out, I didn’t anyway. My family didn’t and yours probably too. Anyway, it
matured me in a lot of ways. 3:31
Interviewer: “ If you look back on that time when girls, women didn’t really have a
whole lot of options. You could basically become of course a mother, a homemaker,
you could become a nurse, perhaps a teacher, but there weren’t a whole lot of other
things available. After the women’s professional baseball that seemed to change
and there are baseball teams and there are girl’s sports and whatnot. How much do
you think your experience and the experience of the baseball league had on girls
doing things today?” 3:32
Well, I’m led to believe that it had a great effect. My personal experience or contacts
haven’t shown me, other than what I have read or seen, but I guess it’s like Title IX or
whatever, and all this and I have a good friend who taught in college and she is a good
example of this. She had the opportunity to go to college right out of high school and she
could either be a nurse, a teacher or homemaker. Well, she wanted to be an engineer, but
women didn’t do that so, she became a teacher and had a successful career. She has
enlightened me about a lot of the changes because she taught at the local college here.
3:33 I see changes—I’m watching this Olympic team and I’m watching even some
sandlot stuff and there’s a lot of women out there that could be playing baseball and they
have tried it, but it doesn’t catch on and I’ve said, I don’t think it ever will. It might in
another hundred years or something and I want to stress something—there were good ball
players, but there are today too, but the skirts, the uniform, the timing, it’s in a little
pocket there of history where it fit in perfectly and I don’t know where your going to find
another pocket like that. You could make some changes that would be significant, but
this was wartime and wartime then was a lot different than wartime now--much different.
3:34
14
�Interviewer: “Penny Marshall decided to make the movie called “A League of
Their Own”. How were you contacted about that? How did you find out about it?”
I wasn’t personally, but June Peppis in Kalamazoo, she had started the players
association and we were getting together someplace and having a great time once a year
or twice a year. Anyway, she had these two writers come over one year, I don’t
remember their names, but they developed the storyline, never dreaming it would lead
into this, but it did. I don’t know how Penny Marshall got involved myself, but I do
remember in Cooperstown in 1988 when they recognized us, that Penny Marshall was
there. What a brilliant mind. 3:35 She’s brilliant and the way she put together that
movie and all the little twists and innuendos and everything else—it’s phenomenal—even
to “There’s no crying in baseball”, I don’t think anybody had said that before had they to
your knowledge? Anyway, we didn’t even dream at that point yet before the movie, what
it meant to other people as whole, as a unit there.
Interviewer: “I know and I’ve been told this by other baseball player, the storyline
itself was very much fictional account, but overall, did the film express, did it show
the experience?”
I think it showed the experience beautifully, but I think that the experience that it
depicted was more at the beginning of the league. I’m not sure why I say the, I just feel
that way. I think it did an exceptional job. Then to get gals that could play ball and all—
it was wonderful. 3:36 It was wonderful and it’s going to be a movie that’s going to be
around forever I’m sure. It’s going to be a good fill in forever, isn’t it?
Interviewer: “I think so and it kind of becomes like the 1940’s classics—it has the
flavor of that period and it doesn’t have all the stuff you see in so many movies
today. It stands on it’s own. How did the movie affect the association, affect you
and the association?” 3:37
The movie had a fantastic effect on the association, not just monetary, although there was
some there, but it found players that were off in somewhere, although there had been
great searches trying to locate people. It strengthened the association and almost gave the
association a purpose. I sometimes struggle with that—what’s the association s purpose
right now? Well, it’s to perpetuate the league, but I’m one of the youngest. Rosemary, I
said, is younger than I, but I was one of the youngest that was around from the beginning.
It isn’t going to be many more years—the associate members are beginning to take over
control, which has to be, but they’ve been around long enough where they’re picking up
the stories etc. It’s hard to put into a few words what the experience meant to each and
every one of them. To Beansie it meant getting out of Okalahoma, to me, I’ve always
been here. I went to South High School, played on the same South thing and the
connection with Jerry Ford—I’m into Grand Rapids history. 3:38
Interviewer: “That’s why you get along so well with Gordon Olson. He has a love
for this place.”
15
�Yes, he’s done a lot for us too. There are a lot of people who have stepped up and really
made us feel like somebody again as we get into our older years.
Interviewer: “I think one of the things that I found as a documentary film maker,
I’ve done films about the Flying Tigers, film about the Red Arrow and during the
experience itself you know you’re doing something and in your case your playing
baseball and your enjoying it and all that, but you don’t think in terms of what it is
going to mean fifty years from now.” 3:39
Absolutely not ever had a thought that way.
Interviewer: “But at the same time I think it’s important that historians do take the
tie and sit back say, “Guess what, this had an effect and this happened because of
what you did during that period.” A time when you were just a teenager.”
I was just a teenager, but I’ve had a good life since. I haven’t—I participated in the
meeting and the association and the reunions etc., but it hasn’t encompassed my life like
some others.
Interviewer: “But it’s an important part of your life.”
I haven’t forgotten and I never will. I know that dad would have been proud of me had
he lived to see me playing. 3:40
Interviewer: “I think it’s important that he encouraged you to begin with.”
That was and the boys in the neighborhood added to it too. I remember about ten days
before dad died, it was in November, he had me out between the houses in our
neighborhood where I grew up, throwing a football. Interesting—that was almost his last
day of consciousness. He had just come home from the hospital and he was built-up a
little bit.
Interviewer: “But your mom got a chance to see your success.”
She wasn’t interested in baseball, not at all. I think she knew though—one thing she said,
I remember and it was when I graduated from Community College, she said, “You’re the
first person in the family to get a degree.” It was only an Associates Degree, but it was a
degree, it was putting two years together. I think she was, but I don’t think she ever came
over to see a game. I’m not sure about that, maybe she did. 3:41
Interviewer: “Do you have other family?”
No, I have cousins that I don’t know—not really.
Interviewer: “I’m an only child also.”
You miss a lot.
16
�Interviewer: “You do, but on the other hand there’s a comfort level being by
yourself that have families don’t have.”
That is true. You think a little differently.
Interviewer. “I think so and if you actually take time to improve yourself and your
independence, it strengthens you, but I have very close friends.”
I do too, a lot of wonderful friends and that means a lot.
Interviewer: “Are there any thoughts that you want to add?”
No, I can’t think of any unless you want to ask me more questions. I feel like I did a
decent job for you. 3:42
Interviewer: “This has been a wonderful time.”
Do you tell everyone that?
Interviewer: “No, but each one is that unique.”
We are all different, right. Get Dolly going and you will enjoy her.
Interviewer: “Thank you very much and good-bye”
Thank you Frank, it was nice meeting you. 3:42
17
�18
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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RHC-58_MJenkins
Title
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Jenkins, Marilyn M. (Interview transcript and video), 2008
Creator
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Jenkins, Marilyn
Description
An account of the resource
Marilyn Jenkins was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1934. She grew up in Grand Rapids and played baseball with family and friends, and played softball with the neighborhood kids. When the Grand Rapids Chicks arrived in 1945, she talked her way into a job with the team and quickly became their batgirl, a job she held through the 1951 season. She played as a batgirl from 1945 thru 1951. Upon graduating high school in 1952, she became eligible to play in the All American Girls Professional Baseball League and went on to play with the Grand Rapids Chicks from 1952 to 1954 as a catcher.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Michigan
Women
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2008-07-01
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f5226560f3829ce3ed21ec829bf36de5.m4v
73f97170a2d1a87c828ac8ee22608368
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a5e04c105fa679f4dd6951cb3f746f30.pdf
fd7cbcd2fa95f2861fb64b196870c57a
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
BETSY JOCHUM
Women in Baseball
Born: Cincinnati, Ohio 1921
Resides: South Band, Indiana
Interviewed by: James Smither, PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 4, 2010,
Detroit, MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, October 26, 2010
Interviewer: “Betsy, can you start by giving us some background on yourself?
Beginning with where and when were you born?”
I was born in Cincinnati, Ohio.
Interviewer: “In what year?”
1921, and when we were kids we use to play on the corner lot with an old beat up ball
and when the cover came off we would just put friction tape on it and keep on playing.
That’s how I started out playing and eventually I played on the local softball teams and
went to the national tournaments in Chicago and Detroit and then P.K. Wrigley sent his
club scout to Cincinnati for tryouts and I made that and we were sent to Chicago to try
out at Wrigley Field and I played for the South Bend Blue Sox.
Interviewer: “Ok, back up a little and we will fill out some more of the pieces of the
story as we go forward. So, you’re talking about playing sandlot ball with balls you
knocked the covers off of. What did your family do for a living in those days?”
My dad was a carpenter and my mother stayed home.
Interviewer: “And growing up there you’re getting—by the time you’re nine or ten
years old the depression is starting and things like that. Was it hard for him to
make a living?”
1
�The great depression, yes, and according to Tom Brokaw were “The Greatest
Generation” right? 4:52
Interviewer: “Did your father have a hard time getting enough work to keep the
family fed?”
During the depression he didn’t have a job for quite a while, but then things picked up.
Interviewer: “So, there wasn’t a lot of money to go buy bats and ball s with or
things like that?”
No, we just played with any old thing and friction tape to fix anything.
Interviewer: “Now did you have school sports that you could play or teams?”
Not for the girls, we just had intramurals maybe once a year.
Interviewer: “Now you talked about getting involved with an organized softball
league, and how was that run or what was the set-up for that?”
They got a sponsor and they bought the uniforms and we couldn’t get anything paid, we
were armatures and I played on a team in Covington, Kentucky and Cincinnati and then
we went to the national tournaments in Chicago and Detroit and we ended up in second
place I think at one time. 6:02
Interviewer: “That’s sort of how you came to the attention of the Cubs scout when
they were looking for people to go build this league with. Did they come to
Cincinnati to scout you and how did that work did they just watch a game?”
No, they hit fly balls and you ran this way and ran that way and run back and batting etc.
Interviewer: “And were there a lot of women they were looking at or just a few of
you?”
I think there were about six and they took four for the same team.
2
�Interviewer: “So, a pretty small group that they had identified already as the ones
they want. Alright, then how did they get you up to Chicago?”
On the James Whitcomb Riley train and we stayed at the Belmont Hotel in Chicago and
P.K. Wrigley game us free food, free shoes, free glove, everything. 6:59
Interviewer: “Now you were born in 1921 and the league starts in 1943, so you’re a
little older than some of the women that were getting involved in the league.”
I was twenty-one and we had some players that were fifteen and sixteen, Dot Schroeder
and Lois Florreich and a few after that.
Interviewer: “Right, now did you have a job then before you went up?”
I was working in Cincinnati as a Comptometer operator; they’re out of existence now,
Comptometers.
Interviewer: “What is a Comptometer?”
Added, multiply, divide, subtract.
Interviewer: “Sort of an adding machine?”
A glorified adding machine really.
Interviewer: “So, at that point you didn’t really have a whole lot of exciting job
prospects or whatever at that point?”
No, I think I had to pay to get that job, it was during the depression and then I started
playing ball. Getting paid to play a game, that was nice.
Interviewer: “That’s a good deal. All right, so you go up and this is your first
season in it, so they bring you up to Chicago and what happens when you get
there?” 8:09
3
�We had tryouts again and they ran us all over the outfield, batting practice and all that,
but the big thing was, we tried out at Wrigley field and women were never on that field.
We were the first ones to play under our temporary license, our league.
Interviewer: “Did you have any sense, of the women that tried out, how many
actually made the teams? Did most of them get assigned to teams or did a lot of
them get sent home?”
A lot of them got sent home. There were only four teams and I think there were sixteen
or seventeen players on each team and there were, I think, five hundred trying out. I
don’t know, I forgot. There were quite a few there that didn’t make it. They put just a
poster up in the hotel, not like in the movie, it was in the hotel the next morning and if
your name was on it, you made it. 9:08
Interviewer: “All right, What team were you assigned to?”
South Bend, and the four managers had to set up the teams not knowing which teams
they were going to coach or manage of the four original teams, Kenosha, Rockford,
South Bend and Racine.
Interviewer: “You said the four managers set up the teams.”
There were four teams, but they didn’t know which team they were going to manage at
that time, until later.
Interviewer: “What was the logic of that? Why did they do it that way?”
Well, they could set up a good team for themselves, otherwise, like anybody else would
do.
Interviewer: ‘So this gave them some balance, they had to create teams?”
They always tried to keep the teams evenly balanced as far as skills.
4
�Interviewer: “All right, now, at least in the movie version of things, there’s a pretty
big production made out of efforts to teach all of these girls how to be like ladies;
how to dress and how to act and that kind of thing. How much of that did you get
and how much do you remember about that?” 10:08
The first one was Helena Rubenstein and she taught us how to put on a coat and how to
go up and down the stairs and we each got a make-up kit, that was put away, but it was
good and worthwhile and it was a good thing to do.
Interviewer: “What other rules and regulations stood out at that point?”
We always had to wear a skirt, and we were not allowed to wear shorts in public and of
course and for the four or five years we had the North Shore and the South Shores and
each team had their own bus and when you were on the bus you could wear shorts and
when you got off the bus you had to put a skirt on. Those were the strict rules and no
smoking or drinking.
Interviewer: “Did they try to control dating and things like that?”
You had to see the chaperone, each team had their own chaperone and you had to be
checked out with her.
Interviewer: “And who was the girls’ chaperone when you started?”
It was Rose Way from Tennessee and she had to wear the players’ uniform and the next
was Helen Moore from Milwaukee and they had like an airline hostess outfit and the one
after that was Lucille Moore and she was from South Bend and that was through 1948
and after that some of the players became chaperones when they ran out of money. 11:32
Interviewer: “What did you think of the chaperones?”
5
�Well, they weren’t nerds like they were in the movie. They were very nice and they were
our first aid people and if you got a strawberry they patched you up. They were really
nice I thought, and they looked really nice in their uniform, those airline hostess
uniforms.
Interviewer: “Did they look after the younger players particularly?”
If they got homesick they would kind of talk to them.
Interviewer: “What kind of living accommodations did you have?”
Well, in the movie it showed like a boarding house. We didn’t—it wasn’t true, we lived
in private homes and we had a room in private homes of people who were usually fans of
the team and that’s the way it was, not in a big dorm. It was usually close enough to the
ballpark, so you could walk to the ballpark. 12:26
Interviewer: “How much did they pay you when you started playing?”
Fifty dollars plus expenses when we were out of town and that was a lot of money
because coffee was only five cents then.
Interviewer: “Was that a month?”
A week
Interviewer: “That was pretty good money then at that time.”
I made more money than my dad made.
Interviewer: “What did you do with your money when you made it?”
I tried to save it for later on and I bought myself some nice clothes every once in a while
Interviewer: “What position did you play?”
6
�I started out playing left field and I played center field and some first base when the first
baseman was injured. Then when they pitched over hand I pitched and when I wasn’t
pitching I played in the outfield and substitute batting. 13:18
Interviewer: “Were you a good hitter?”
Yeah, except in 1948 I got tired I think and we didn’t have any days off. We played
every day and traveled. We got in Southfield sometimes at five o’clock in the morning
and played that evening and it was really tiring sometimes.
Interviewer: “Now, were you a power hitter or a singles hitter?”
No, I hit a lot of doubles and sometimes the people in South Bend would give us silver
dollars for hitting doubles or triples or whatever. I just hit a few home runs.
Interviewer: “Did the field have outfield fences like modern parks do or did some of
them have open ends?”
They all had fences. Now, in Racine it was a humongous field and if you hit to center
field it would roll a mile after that, but most of them weren’t that large. Kenosha had a
small field and the fog would roll in off of Lake Michigan and in the outfield you
couldn’t see the ball sometimes. 14:23 They moved the field to a different location later
on. In South Bend we played at Bendix Field first and then moved over to Playland Park
which was an amusement park with a race track and the ball field was inside the racetrack
and home plate was on a cinder track, so if you slid home it was kind of ouchie.
Interviewer: “What was the fan response to women playing baseball, particularly
in that first season? How were you received in South bend and other places?”
7
�When the league first started we were playing softball and they didn’t believe that we
could play until they came out and saw us play and then they came out all the time and
watched us. 15:15
Interviewer: “What kind of people were your fans? Were they kids or older people,
men, women?”
They were family people, professional people, doctors, lawyers and bankers and
everything. You know I always thought they didn’t wear those hats until they showed
old movies and everyone wore hats to the ball game, those big gangster type hats. When
Penny Marshall made the movie they all had those hats on and I thought they didn’t wear
hats, but they did. We went and watched the movie being made and Penny Marshall
really talks that way all the time, but they were real nice to us down there, the whole
bunch. Gretsky’s wife, he’s the ice hockey player, the big tall blond that pitched a few
times, but we had a real nice time and they treated us like stars. 16:08
Interviewer: “Now, are there particular games that stand out in your memory or
things that happened in individual games?”
Yes, when I hit a foul ball and it hit me up in the eye and I went flat on my back, I
remember that, a stupid thing.
Interviewer: “All right, how about good things?”
When I caught a ball bare handed. My glove was over here and I caught it bare handed
over there, I remember that.
Interviewer: “Now, the time you played with the Blue Sox did they win the league
championship any of those years?”
8
�Not while I was playing. They came in second, but they never really won anything until
later on in the fifties I think it was.
Interviewer: “Who do you thing were some of the best players you played alongside
of on that team?”
On our team or the other team?
Interviewer: “Your team?” 17:06
Jean Faut, Schroeder, Liz Mahon, Worth
Interviewer: “What made them stand out from the other players?”
They made everything look easy instead of making it look hard.
Interviewer: “Were there particular pitchers that you didn’t like to go up against?”
The slow pitchers, the faster they threw it the better I liked it. I couldn’t hit slow
pitching.
Interviewer: “So, did you like it, in terms of hitting, as they began to move away
from the softball style and did the ball stay the same size during the time you were
playing or did the ball get smaller?”
We were lucky, the ones that started out, we started out with a softball and as we kept
playing the balls got small and the bases got longer and the pitchers moved back,
underhand, sidearm to overhand, so we were kind of eased into it, the older players.
Interviewer: “But, if you like to have faster pitches and they started to move in that
direction from sidearm to overhand, did the pitchers get faster or could they pitch
just as fast underhand?” 18:13
I would say underhand was a lot faster because they were a lot closer. They were only
about forty feet away and they could zing it in there.
9
�Interviewer: “So, you actually got a little more time to wait on the pitch if it’s fiftysix feet out or whatever they got it to.”
I think we did--too long
Interviewer: “Now tell me a little bit more about the traveling, you mentioned you
were out—“
It started out we rode the South Shore, North Shore electric trains from Chicago to
Racine and South Bend and then in 1945 each team had their own bus, which was nice.
They weren’t air conditioned, but no more suitcases to lug around from station to station
and it was so hard and it was so hot to carry that suitcase with your uniform in it and on
the bus the uniforms were put in the back and we wouldn’t have to mess with all that.
19:08
Interviewer: “How would you get to Rockford then? Was there a train that went
that way too or would you?”
I really don’t remember.
Interviewer: “Kenosha, Racine and South Bend are conveniently on rail lines that
go out of Chicago.”
I remember when they had a team out in Minneapolis and we rode the train out there and
it seemed to last forever out there, but that didn’t last very long and Milwaukee either. I
don’t remember how we got to Rockford the first few years. It must have been by train
or bus or taxi I don’t know.
Interviewer: “ I guess it was the Milwaukee team about one year and then it went to
Grand Rapids.”
Yes, and Minneapolis went to Fort Wayne.
10
�Interviewer: “Right, so you got that. Which team do think was probably the best
team that you played against?”
I thought the Grand Rapids and Rockford teams were the best while I was playing. 20:02
Interviewer: “Who did you have as a manager while you were playing?”
We had Bert Niehoff first, all major-league players, Marty McManus, Chet Grant, he was
a football man really, and then Marty came back again.
Interviewer: “Alright, and how effective were they as managers do you think?”
I liked Marty McManus he was my favorite. He would take more chances and we had
more hit and run and things like that and the other ones wouldn’t do too much of that.
Interviewer: “Did they do much coaching in terms of teaching you to do better or
did they just send you on out there?”
Oh no, they taught us how to bat and where to throw the ball and things like that. Hit and
run or stealing bases and things like that.
Interviewer: “What did you do in the off season? You played in the summer and
then what?” 21:06
I was lucky, I went back to French Barr as a comptometer operator in the winter. Other
people had to find a new job, but I didn’t.
Interviewer: “So, they held your job for you basically and you could go back and do
it?”
Yes, but I always took a month off after the season and then went back to work.
Interviewer: “Why did you stop playing ball?”
I was traded to Peoria and I didn’t want to go and they said my choice was to either go or
quit, so I quit.
11
�Interviewer: “Once you quit what did you do?”
I worked at Bendix Products as a comptometer and eventually I went to college and
became a teacher.
Interviewer: “Where did you go to college?”
Illinois State and I was thirty-six years old when I graduated.
Interviewer: “What did you get your degree in?”
What else, phys ed
Interviewer: “There you go… and what did you do with that degree once you had
it?”
I taught grades three through eight at Miesel School in South Bend and I was there was
twenty-seven years and then I retired. 22:17
Interviewer: “Now, did the people know that you were a baseball player?”
No, we never talked about it until the movie came out. They wouldn’t have believed us.
Interviewer: “So, the people in South Bend didn’t necessarily even remember that
there was a team?”
They didn’t even know we played until the movie came out.
Interviewer: “Now, were you involved with the league organization before that?”
No, not really, do you mean our league? No, P.K. Wrigley did all that organizing.
Interviewer: “No, I meant the organization of the players, the one that’s now—
we’re having the reunion of/”
Do you mean the AAGPBL?
Interviewer: “Yes”
No, I wasn’t involved in that.
12
�Interviewer: “Did you know about making the movie when they started it, did you
get involved in that?”
We went down and watched them make the movie in Evansville. 23:10
Interviewer: “So, you must have had enough of a connection that they could invite
you. Did they go and research and find the players or what did they do?”
No, we just went down on our own and watched.
Interviewer: “OK”
They hired Karen Kunkel to kind of help them out with the movie and latter on I think,
Pepper Paire was down there too. We just went down as spectators.
Interviewer: “OK”
Very interesting how they faked on a lot of stuff
Interviewer: “Which parts of the movie do you think were the most authentic or
realistic?”
The base running I guess, the batting was all faked out. They had a machine behind
home plate and the batter would swing and the machine would throw the ball out in the
outfield.
Interviewer: “So, you swung the bat better than Madonna did then?”
Yes, but she tried. 24:06
Interviewer: “Which pieces of the movie struck you as being the most really out of
character from what really went on or the most Hollywoodish?”
When they showed the chaperone. She was horrible, that chaperone in the movie, but the
games, actually, were pretty authentic. They made it look authentic anyway and they did
a good job. It put us on the map, really..
13
�Interviewer: “When you were playing, did you think that you were doing
something really distinctive or unusual?”
Not really, until later on.
Interviewer: “You were just playing ball, so that was a good idea.”
We were having fun and getting paid to play a game. It was a very unusual league for
that time.
Interviewer: “I can’t think of anything else like that and that could have been
equivalent, you had women athletes, but—“ 25:10
Not team sports, not professional team sports.
Interviewer: “Golf and tennis, but not a whole lot else.”
Mostly golf with Babe Zaharias at that time I think and Patty—what was that golfers
name, Patty Burg?
Interviewer: “As we kind of got into the seventies and eighties etc. and had Title IX
come in, you had a lot of efforts to actually get women involved in sports—“
That was real good, that Title Nine and women got scholarships and everything and we
had nothing before that really.
Interviewer: “Have you gotten much of a chance to meet or talk to the women
athletes of the younger generation? Ones who play softball now or college sports?”
Not really, some of the ball players did, but I didn’t really do that.
Interviewer: “If you look at it now, how do you think your experience in the league
affected you? What did you take out of that?”
It changed everybody’s life I think; I met a lot of people, bankers, lawyers, doctors, plus
players for all over Cuba, the USA and Canada. 26:27
14
�Interviewer: “Now, did you get down to Cuba for the spring training they did
there?”
Yes, my first flight
Interviewer: “What was that like? What do you remember about that?”
It was wild; we went to the ballpark in a taxicab. They didn’t have traffic lights and
when you got to a corner whoever beeped their horn first had the right away and we
didn’t have any water to drink, it was always Coca Cola. We had our practices at the
stadium out there and the Brooklyn Dodgers were there at the same time in a different
park and they came to watch us play and not them.
Interviewer: “So, why were people watching you and not the Dodgers?”
Women in skirts playing ball
Interviewer: “So people came to watch you play and how did the fans in Puerto
Rico [Cuba] behave?” 27:23
They were wild and we weren’t allowed to walk down the streets alone, we had to go in
groups. They had real good cocoanut ice cream and fresh pineapple they sold on the
streets. It was a real experience and this one man that made movie shorts, I can’t think of
his name, walking down the stairway of the Havana University, all the teams and I have a
snapshot of that, but he made a movie shorts and it got lost somehow and I still can’t
think of his name. He was very popular at that time, making shorts.
Interviewer: “Were these like newsreel movie?”
Yes, newsreel things
Interviewer: “Now, what year did you do that?”
1947 in Cuba
15
�Interviewer: “Of course for the first year for 1943 you went to Wrigley Field and
everybody got together there?”
We practiced in South Bend I think and we went down to Opa-Locka, Florida one year at
an old naval station I think it was. 28:30
Interviewer: “What was that experience like?”
We swam in the swimming pool and had a good time when we weren’t practicing. It was
nice and I liked it, but Pascagoula was roach heaven. The roaches were that big and got
in our suitcases and everything.
Interviewer: “Was that a different year at Pascagoula?’
Yes, and I would like to forget that year. We were in the army barracks and it was
horrible and hot and filthy.
Interviewer: “When you went to those places did you play games that people would
come and attend or were you just working out?” 29:10
We would get two teams together and after practice we would travel throughout the south
and shared a bus for about a week and played every night and travel all day and play the
next night with no days off. Then we would fly back to South Bend
Interviewer: “What kind of response did you get when you were doing that kind of
barnstorming?”
Oh, they loved us and we had real good attendance there.
Interviewer: “Would you sometimes recruit players as you went through that
way?”
I guess so, once in a while, that’s how we got the Cubans.
16
�Interviewer: “Some of the players we have talked to, like Sue Kidd was from
Arkansas and that kind of thing. You come through and they sign on and join them
and just go on along. Were the audiences all white when you were in the south or
did you play for black audiences too?” 30:02
I think they were all white. We were in Charlotte, was it South Carolina?
Interviewer: “North Carolina has the large town of Charlotte.”
Anyway, we had a room that had these large bowls with a pitcher of water; an old hotel
and you would take a bath in the bowl. I remember that, I don’t know why, but we
stayed in nice hotels really most of the time. Tampa Terrace, I have some old postcards
from some of them.
Interviewer: “When you were playing against the teams in the league, were there
certain towns you liked to go to better than others?”
In the league, I didn’t like Peoria, it was so hot and I didn’t like the hotel there. Kenosha,
there was a nice hotel there, it was a small town and Racine was nice. Peoria is the place
I didn’t like because it was so hot there and there was no place to eat there that was good.
31:03 We played in Racine and we went to this bar to get something to eat after the
game and there was a piano player there and a singer and it was Patti Page.
Interviewer: “Well, that’s pretty good.”
We asked if we could request a song and she was very nice. That was before she became
popular and that was quite an experience meeting her then. 31:30
Interviewer: “Once the movie came out and the league got more attention, have you
done anything in terms of helping with museums or anything like that?”
17
�We went down to the museum in South Bend and identified hundreds of pictures for the
museum.
Interviewer: “All right, you’re also involved with a bigger museum than that. Who
has your uniform?”
The Smithsonian. Iin 1983 I donated my uniform to the Smithsonian. It had been in
Japan and all over the U.S for two years on its tour.
Interviewer: “How did you wind up giving your uniform to the Smithsonian?”
One of the players said they wanted our uniforms and I said, “I’ve got one down in the
cellar”, and it was all rumpled up and dirty, so I cleaned it up and ironed it real nice and
put it on this statue. They had a nice display of my uniform with my picture there. 32:30
Interviewer: “All right, and did they get anymore of your stuff?”
My hat and my cap, my socks, my belt and my glove.
Interviewer: “At the time you were donating that stuff, did you think much of it or
did you think that if they wanted it that was fine?”
They might as well have it, it’s down in my basement and somebody else can see it there
at the Smithsonian.
Interviewer: “You didn’t know it was that important yet?”
No, not really. They were glad they got it and I got a lot of letters thanking me.
Interviewer: “Did you get to go there and see them present it?”
This Audi automobile club had a big todo about the traveling display and they had this
big rotunda and the ice skater Nancy Kerrigan was there and Bill Russell and they had
these old-fashioned popcorn machines and they had cotton candy and free drinks and free
18
�food. It was really an experience and it was the grand opening of the display that was
going to be traveling for two years and sponsored by Audi. 33:36
Interviewer: “Now, if you think back to your playing days and things, are there
any individual events or memories or things that stand out in your mind that you
haven’t brought up here yet?”
Yes, when I was batting in Rockford, I hit a foul ball that came up and hit me in the face
and I landed flat on my back on home plate. Another time I was going to run down first
base and I stepped on that liquid whitewash and fell down.
Interviewer: “What was the liquid whitewash from, or was that what they painted
the lines with?”
They painted the lines with that liquid stuff and if you stepped on that it was slippery and
I happened to step on it after I hit the ball—one step and down. 34:21
Interviewer: “Did they have you wearing cleats?”
We had regular steel spikes and they were long ones, not the short ones like softball, they
were long.
Interviewer: “But that didn’t stop the whitewash from tripping you up?”
No, not me
Interviewer: “All,right, there were a lot of experiences there and thank you for
coming in and telling them to us.
Thank you for having me. 34:44
19
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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RHC-58_BJochum
Title
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Jochum, Betsy (Interview transcript and video), 2010
Creator
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Jochum, Betsy
Description
An account of the resource
Betsy Jochum was born in Cincinnati, Ohio, in 1921. She grew up playing ball with neighborhood kids, and was playing in a local women's softball league in 1943 when she was recruited to play in the All American league during its first season. She played until 1948 with the South Bend Blue Sox, and went on the league's spring training trip to Cuba. She later became a physical education teacher, and donated her glove and uniform to the Smithsonian.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Indiana
Women
Language
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eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-08-04
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/321bf422d64f57545b631bfad039a9b3.m4v
16c0ac7d875b0b645c9de85ab02c4a4a
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2d745a9f23369ab95e693aca1ffc99b6.pdf
8e4cc59107df6248816a041ab9e58777
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
VIVIAN KELLOGG, First Base
Women in Baseball
Born: Jackson, Michigan
Resides: Brooklyn, Michigan
Interviewed by: James Smither, PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 5, 2010,
Detroit, Michigan at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, November 12, 2010
Interviewer: “Vivian, can you begin by telling us a little bit about your background.
Start with where were you born?
I was born in Jackson, Michigan and I played softball for a couple of teams in Jackson.
Interviewer: “In what year were you born?”
1922
Interviewer: “When did you first start to play ball?”
Ever since I could get my hands on a ball. My mother died when I was seventeen months
old, so I never knew my mother, but my brothers and sisters actually raised me and time
after time I had a different boss because they would get married and leave home. My
youngest brother was nine years older than I was and he had to baby sit and he set me to
throwing. 10:45 If he ever wanted to go out and play ball, he had to take me or else he
couldn’t go. They would stick me out in the outfield, but eventually I would work up to
playing in the infield, but I played ball as long as I can remember and all my school years
I was into sports. It was my brothers that taught me to play ball.
Interviewer: “At what point did you start to play on a girls’ team?”
You had to be a certain age and I think I was seventeen. We had to sign in too at that
time, have our parents sign. Whichever one was my boss at that time is the one that
signed the paper. 11:42
1
�Interviewer: “Then did you play with a local league?”
Yes, just a local league.
Interviewer: “How is it you got involved with the All American Girls League?”
I was playing in a state tournament representing Michigan and the tournament was held
in Lansing and a scout was scouting for women’s baseball and that’s how I got involved
in it.
Interviewer: “Now, did this scout introduce himself?”
Yes, he told us and I signed the contract, but I didn’t play until after the tournament, our
bowling tournament, but we didn’t come in first place, but anyway we finished.
Interviewer: “So, when did you actually join the league and start playing then?”
12:42
Interviewer: “Did you play in 1943?”
No, that’s when I was playing softball and it was 1944 when I actually played with the
Minneapolis Millerettes.
Interviewer: “When you were going to start the season then in 1944, did you go to
spring training first? Did they have that?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Where was it?”
It was in Chicago and they picked the teams. The girls on different teams and I was
picked for Minneapolis, so when it folded because of no attendance we came to the Fort
Wayne Daisies.
Interviewer: “Did you play a year when you were in Minneapolis or did you
immediately move?”
2
�We used the same ball field as the Minneapolis baseball team because we were playing
when they were on the road, but did we learn a lot in those locker rooms. That’s how we
traveled, but we lived in private homes and when it was folded we were on the bus from
town to town. 14:10 We stayed in hotels because at that time there weren’t motels.
Interviewer: “Did you just have one season in Minneapolis or part of one season?”
Just half a season
Interviewer: “Half a season”
The next season the Fort Wayne franchise bought it.
Interviewer: “In the meantime you were just a kind of barnstorming team then?”
Now, if we were scheduled to play Racine and it was supposed to be on our field, but we
played on Racine’s field, we just reversed who was the home team, but we didn’t have a
home ground until 1945.
Interviewer: “OK now, what position did you play?”
I played first base.
Interviewer: “Why did you play first base other than something else?”
When I played softball I was a catcher, but when I went to play in the baseball league
they put me on first base, so that’s how I got on first base. 15:14
Interviewer: “So, they just told you to play there. Now, were you a good hitter?”
I could hit, but I couldn’t run. I got a standing ovation once because I stole second base,
but I enjoyed the game very much and it was hard at times, but it was gratifying because
we were doing something for our country, we were entertaining on the home front
because in baseball the boys were all drafted. We got to—when we were returning home
from spring training we would play at army camps, different ones. We stayed in the
3
�barracks and seen how they lived. When they put up a diamond they would just mark it
off and we played baseball for the soldiers at camp and on our last trip we played at
Battle Creek and that’s where the German prisoners were held and after the game we
went to Percy Jones Hospital because that’s where the veterans were in the hospital, so
we visited maybe forty five minutes to an hour which they enjoyed because they only
saw the doctors and the nurses and aids during the day, so they enjoyed our visit. 16:55
Interviewer: “Was it part of your motivation to join the league? Was this
something you could do for the war effort?”
When they signed me I had no idea it was for the war effort until I signed the contract
and then Mr. Wrigley and at that time, the President of the United States—that’s why we
got to have gas because we were entertaining on the home front and in the army camps.
Interviewer: “So, you signed the contract just to play ball and you learn then that
this is part of something bigger, so you’re doing something—you’re making your
own contribution there, but you learned about that later?”
Well, I played seven years and I thought it was time I got out because I had to make a
living, so I quit and I stayed in Fort Wayne three years and in ten years I returned home
and I went to work for a dentist and I worked for him for thirty years. 18:40
Interviewer: “Talk a little bit more about the actual experience of playing in the
league. Who do you think were the best players on your team?”
Well, you can’t judge—maybe I give them all credit; give them all credit for the position
they played and how they got along with the teams and with their teammates. So, I think
the Daisies got along together because we spent twenty-four hours, seven days a week
together. 19:26
4
�Interviewer: “Who was the manager while you were with them?”
Well, I had Bill Wambsganns who use to be—Harold Greiner, Jimmy Foxx, and my first
manager was a fellow from the southern states who played in major baseball, but do you
think I can remember his name? 19:50 The manager we had, some of them were retired
baseball players like Jimmy Foxx and that. We did learn things, like, one day I had to
stand on first base for a half hour shifting from one leg to the other to make sure I was
getting the rhythm right, like if I hit my left foot on the base or if I hit my right foot, my
left foot was out, so it was different than softball where you just caught the ball period.
20:42
Interviewer: “So they were giving you some coaching and you were learning more
as you were going. Now, how much of the etiquette training and the make-up stuff,
how much of that did you have to do?”
We always had a physical and we had a check-up with the doctor and sometimes we
would have to get up do practice that day. If the team wasn’t harmonizing, getting along
and losing we would have to have practice.
Interviewer: “In the movie, one of the things they made a big deal of was the
etiquette and Helena Rubenstein and all of that stuff. How much of that did you
experience?” 21:43
Of what?
Interviewer: “Did you have a lot of rules to follow?”
Oh yes, we had to be a certain distance, length and we couldn’t wear slacks outside, we
always had to have a skirt on and in the school they taught us how to sit and how to
appear for the public because, I wasn’t, but a lot of the girls were from the farms, so they
5
�didn’t have that and the charm school was to teach us, like I say, how to handle your self
in public and dress proper. 22:40
Interviewer: “What kind of fan support did you have? Did you have a lot of
people coming to your games?”
At first we took a lot of ribbing, “go home where you belong”, “go take care of your
kids”, but eventually we won them over because it was something to entertain them and
the wives were always wondering why their husbands were always going to the ball park.
All the fans we had, the men were in the service, so we had the youngsters and females
and elderly men. I can remember one time we were playing in Racine, and that’s just
outside of Chicago near the navy station and there was a couple of sailors around first
base were heckling me and at that time we didn’t take our coats to the dugout, we just
threw them up against the fence and he was riding me and riding me and I had a torn
cartilage and I had a knee brace on and when I was going down first base he said, “take
the piano off your back”, so when I got in the dugout I said, “anybody got any money?”
Timmy said, “I have a nickel”, and I said, “give it to me”, so I gave the two fellows a
nickel and said, “put this in your organ “, and afterwards they met me at the gate and
asked us out for dinner. 24:29 Of course we couldn’t because we were chaperoned, but
they were nice enough.
Interviewer: “They had you playing wearing a knee brace?”
Yeah, and as a matter of fact I got two knee braces on now because I have torn cartilage
. At that time they removed it the first time I had a leg wound or torn ligament, but they
don’t do that now, but they went in that knee twice and this knee once, so I was no speed
demon on the bases. 25:11
6
�Interviewer: “I’m a little surprised they had you playing at all, but at first base you
don’t run that much.”
If our right fielder or somebody was hurt and I didn’t have a brace on, I would go out and
play right field, but very seldom because of my hitting and not my running, my hitting.
Interviewer: “Are there particular things that happened in particular games that
you remember really well or if you think back to when you were playing are there
events that you remember?” 26:05
This was all new to me, so everything was an event to me, but I do have a lot of
memories of different things that are gone and the friendships that I made and how the
public treated us. At first, especially the men, didn’t think women should be playing
baseball and we had to block our hearing off so that we wouldn’t be interrupted. We had
to have rabbit ears, that’s what we called them. The only time I ever said anything to a
fan was when those two sailors that were ribbing me and it wasn’t doing any harm to me,
but I could hear them because it was close to first base and after that I never said a thing.
I did get a letter from them saying the next time they come could I go out for a steak
dinner, so I knew I didn’t hurt their feelings. 27:20
Interviewer: “Are there particular games, individual games, that you remember
well? Are there things that stand out from your playing career?”
Dotty Collins was out pitcher and I remember we had a double header and she pitched
both games and won them and we kind of stuck up for one another and backed them up.
See, our rules, we had league rules, but the managers from different teams had different
ideas, so some of the girls didn’t like them for that reason, but I had no complaints
because I was getting paid. 28:16
7
�Interviewer: “How much did they pay you?”
Well, I was working for the telephone company, Michigan Bell Telephone Co. and I was
making $37.50 a week. I signed a contract for $70.00 a week and I thought I was a
millionaire because it was twice as much and back in 1942 $37.50 was good money, but
when they said $75.00, I thought, wow! We had to pay for our own meals at home and
rent, but on the road we got $33.75 a day and back then you could buy breakfast for a
quarter, dinner for seventy-five cents and lunch for a dollar and a half. You could save
that money that you didn’t use, so when you got home you had money for lunches then.
29:21
Interviewer: “Did you save money while you were in the league?”
Yeah, I bought a car when cars were available.
Interviewer: “If you were making seventy dollars a week, that was more money
than some of the other players were making?”
Some made more than that and it was who the scout was and if you notice in the records,
the California gals seemed to come up with the higher wages than others did.
Interviewer: “there were some who were making fifty dollars a week and not
seventy.”
Yeah, there were some under that, but $75.00 is what I started out with.
Interviewer: “While you were playing, did your team ever win the championship?”
Close to it a couple times. 30:30
Interviewer: “What was the closest you got?”
Well, we did win it once and I know I made $500.00 and that’s when I bought my first
car when we won.
8
�Interviewer: “You were talking a little bit about your decision to stop playing,
explain that a little bit more, why did you give up playing?”
The reason was, I wasn’t getting any younger and I was wearing braces because that one
leg was bothering me and I thought, “I’ll get out while I’m still walking, which I’m not
doing today, and then I went to work in Fort Wayne and I worked at different gymnastics
and Turners was a club that sports and I worked for the Lincoln Life Insurance Company.
I worked there three years and I kind of wanted to come home, so I came home, when I
say home, to Jackson, and I didn’t know what I was going to do. 31:29 I had no place to
go and I had to find an apartment. I bought war bonds and I sold war bonds during the
war and those war bonds came in handy for me because then I could find a place to live
and find a job. I went to work for Dr. Schreiner, a dentist, and I worked for him for thirty
years and I started out on the money from the war bonds that I bought and cashed in.
32:25
Interviewer: “If you look back at your baseball career, what effect do you think
that had on you?”
Well, I was shy, I never forwarded myself like when I was in school I might have known
the answer, but I would never raise my hand to answer it. Sometimes when the teacher
would call my attention I would get tongue-tied. It was just that way, but since I’ve
joined the league, I have come out to where I can now go out and speak to youngsters
about sports and the personalities and of the All American Girls league and how it
started. That helped me because otherwise I kind of stood back. 33:23
Interviewer: “Did the people who knew you in Jackson after your baseball career,
did they know you were a ball player?”
9
�No, and when I came home they would ask me where I had been for the last ten years and
I would tell them I was playing baseball and they never heard of it, so I never bothered to
talk about it because nobody believed it and even some close relatives never did. When
the movie came out, A League of Their Own, and they saw Penny Marshall interview
different players that had started in the league, so when the movie came out and we were
inducted, then they said, “why didn’t you tell us, why didn’t you tell us you played ball?”
I said, “Because nobody would listen”. They didn’t believe girls played baseball. 34:19
Interviewer: “When you were playing ball, did you think of yourselves as pioneers
or people who were doing something new and important?”
All I can think of is it was fun, it was tough at times, but it was gratifying knowing we
had done something for our country.
Interviewer: “Later on, when you get into the 1970’s and 1980’s you have a lot
more women in sports, you have title nine and all of that.”
I feel that’s what had to go to ball because we were the ones that pushed that for girls
softball because I can remember when I worked for the Jackson recreation, excuse me,
before I started playing ball and when I came back I worked for them and played rounds
and different things and if the girls had a game and the boys were rained out, the boys
had the privilege of the diamond. When Brooklyn, where I live now, Brooklyn,
Michigan, when they dedicated a ball diamond, there were four at the complex and I said,
“I want one for the girls only”, so that’s what they did, there’s four games played at the
same time and one of them is the girls diamond. 36:07 When they dedicated it they
invited me in to talk to the girls and I said, “this is your diamond and be proud to play on
it. It will help women’s sports”, so they did and they won a championship a couple of
10
�times, the girl’s softball. It’s the high school girls and now I will get a call from one of
them asking if I would like to come out and see a game. No matter who calls me to ask
me to come out and watch them play. Sometimes the boys, the little league, I didn’t
know them because they had helmets and all that equipment on and their mothers would
be sitting next to them and I would say, “which one’s your son’s number”, because of all
the equipment. 37:12 I remember asking one little boy, “who’s the best player on your
team?” He said, “I am”, so I agreed with him. That’s what I got out of my baseball, the
thrill of coaching little girls as well as little boys and I feel the boys were as interested in
it as the girls.
Interviewer: “Interested in the fact that you played? They liked that too.”
Yeah,
Interviewer: “I think now people recognize how unusual your league was and how
significant it was, so now we have a way of understanding that and appreciating it.
Maybe they didn’t have that. Are there any other thoughts you would like to put on
the record here before we close out the interview?”
The people I feel bad about supported us, were here for the recognition and they’re the
ones that supported us and that’s the only regret I have is that we were so long in getting
recognized that they are gone. 38:31
Interviewer: “Other players or other people who started the league? Players that
are gone?”
Oh yes, there are more associates in our league now than there are players, as a matter of
fact, we lost two here this month.
11
�Interviewer: “We’re doing our best to catch up with you while you’re still here, so
thank you very much for coming in and talking to me today.”
Thank you. 38:56
12
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-58_VKellogg
Title
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Kellogg, Vivian (Interview transcript and video), 2010
Creator
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Kellogg, Vivian
Description
An account of the resource
Vivian Kellogg was born in Jackson, Michigan, in 1922. She grew up playing baseball with her brothers, and joined a girls' team in Jackson when she was seventeen. She was spotted by a scout in 1943, and was assigned to the Minneapolis Millerettes for the 1944 season. The team became the Fort Wayne Daisies in 1945, and she was their starting first baseman through the 1950 season, and then retired due to knee injuries. After working for a number of years in Fort Wayne, she returned to Michigan and coached boys' little league teams and started a girls' softball league.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Minnesota
Women
Language
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eng
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2010-08-05
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f44428bdbaf2a1931243b4780badf5ab.m4v
ae6f957fd9952fea53c6dce45da76e29
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/deed70befdf3b38b9a3fc33495bf3e10.pdf
84678250c84c2a830a03bdffb992b967
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Sue Kidd
Length of Interview: (00:30:31)
Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, September 27,
2009, Milwaukee, WI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, June 22, 2010
Born: Arkansas
Interviewer: “Can you begin by telling us a little bit about your own background?”
I was born to Marvin and Judith Kidd in 1933 and I was the fifth of six children, three
boys and three girls. We lived on a farm at that time, a little place out in the country, and
about the only recreation outside of work was playing ball, baseball. My dad was a great
baseball player and my two older brothers and as I came along, I started playing also.
Any free moment I had, we were playing ball.
Interviewer: “Did your father have any professional or semi-professional
experience?”
He tried out, as a fairly young man, with the St. Louis Cardinals and had not been cut, but
since he had a wife and two daughters at home already, he got homesick and decided he
would rather be at home with his family and farm even though he loved baseball. 1:11
Interviewer: “When you were growing up and you were playing ball, were there a
lot of girls playing ball?”
No, I don’t know of any girls that played ball at all except myself. I mean they played
basketball, but not baseball. There were no softball teams in that area.
Interviewer: “Did you eventually play other sports too?”
Yes, basketball and of course with the boys I played football, but just for fun. The coach
would have liked to have me play football, but mother was against that.
Interviewer: “In general how did people in the community and your family respond
to your playing all these sports?”
They just thought it was great and of course dad always had to show me off, throwing the
ball to any stranger that came around and were interested and let me play with the men
against the teams that were easier to beat I’ll say, he let me play. 2:06
1
�Interviewer: “Now how was it that you wound up becoming a professional ball
player?”
Well, I’ll try to make it short, but in school the guidance councilor was trying to get me
interested in college courses and I always told her that I was going to play professional
ball and she said, “but Sue, girls don’t play professional baseball”, and I said, “I don’t
care”, and I kind of had the attitude that the good lord would see to that and one day in
the spring of 1949, probably March, she came down and got me out of class and showed
me a magazine. It was a Look or Life magazine, I can’t remember just which one, to
show me about this league in the Midwest, so she quit trying to talk me into going to
college. In June, Manis professional baseball scout, that my dad sent my older brothers
to baseball school and would have sent me, but they had no facilities for girls. 3:06 He
came up to make sure my dad took me to Little Rock, which is seventy-five miles south,
to this game that these two girls teams were going to be playing because he thought I
should tryout, so that’s where we went. I tried out before the game one afternoon, they
wanted to sign me to a contract and send me home to leave with them after the game the
next day, so we drove home, mother washed and ironed all night, found a suitcase to pack
my luggage in, clothes in, and I had to get back to Little Rock to go through the vital
statistics to get my birth certificate and luckily one of the home boys worked there and
was kind of a supervisor in some department and he walked me through and he could
vouch to when I was born because he lived in that community, so I was able to get it in
one day. 4:05
Interviewer: “You didn’t actually have a birth certificate, one the doctor made for
you?”
No, I didn’t have a Social Security number until they were ready to pay me the first
check, we were in Oklahoma somewhere and Lenny Zintak, the manager and one of the
chaperones took me to someplace, I don’t know where it was, and I got a Social Security
card.
Interviewer: “When you were doing the tryout, were there a lot of other girls trying
out or just a few of you?”
I don’t really remember anybody else except myself that particular night.
Interviewer: “How did they actually do the try out? Did they just put you up on
the mound and say pitch?”
No, they warmed me up on the side with a catcher, in fact I think it was Wimp
Baumgartner and she was quite excited that I could throw the ball, throw a curve and then
they let me tryout on the mound a little bit and hit a few balls and that was—they were
ready to sign me. 4:59
Interviewer: “Some of the other players have told me that it was not all that
common to pick up or add players in the middle of a barnstorming tour. Basically
2
�you have these two teams that are traveling around, just playing all different places
and then they give tryouts, but you tried out and you got in there, so you must have
been pretty good.”
Everybody thought I was and I guess I had them fooled.
Interviewer: “Once you signed up and joined the team, how old were you?”
Fifteen. 5:26
Interviewer: “How did they take care of a fifteen year old girl?”
Well, there were other fairly young ones and there were older ones. Of course we had
chaperones and we had a terrific bus driver that was like a grandfather to us, and they
assured my folks that I would be taken care of, I’d be supervised, and I was. I’m going to
get off on a tangent now, but in the summertime my mother usually just cut my hair like I
had a bowl on my head because I either played ball and had a ball cap on or I was
swimming in the creek or horseback riding, so she didn’t try to curl it, so the first week
on the tour some of the older ones said, “Sue, we’re going to take you to the beauty shop
and get your hair curled”. I mean it was stuff like that and they helped me buy other
clothes because I didn’t even have a lot of dresses and you really needed skirts and
blouses to be able to change back and forth in. You could ride on the bus in blue jeans or
shorts, but if you got off, you had to put on a skirt and I mean even at midnight. 6:33
Interviewer: “When the league started there were an awful lot of rules about
conduct and dress and all of this. Were all of those still in place when you joined?”
Not as many, you didn’t have to practice walking with a book on your head and stuff, but
as far as the dress and being at curfew and stuff like that, drinking and smoking in public
and stuff, they were pretty much in—but of course, we sneaked around and smoked,
some of us.
Interviewer: “Alright, where were the people on your team from? From all over
the place?”
Yes sir, all over and on the tour team I know we had them from the east coast. I don’t
remember any people off hand from California. Most of them were already good enough
to be in the league and of course these traveling teams were sort of like “rookies” teams
for practice and sometimes they would even call one up off of the tour when there were
injuries. 7:28 I remember Wimp Baumgartner, she was catcher, and Peoria’s catcher got
hurt and she was shipped up to catch the rest of the season. Things like that did happen.
Interviewer: “On this tour how far did you go or how far off did you range while
you were going around?”
Well, after they picked me up they traveled around to twenty-five different states. We
went on—when they picked me up we went to New Orleans and circled back through
3
�Hot Springs and out through Texas, Oklahoma and I don’t know whether we came back
through—it seemed like we went to southern Arkansas and went down to as far as
Pensacola, Florida and wandered up the east coast to Virginia and some of those places
and clear up into New Jersey and around in that area and finished the tour in West
Virginia, Labor Day week-end. 8:23
Interviewer: “In the process do you actually—did you play in New York or go in
New York City?”
We got to go to the Yankee Stadium and see a couple of innings of games before we went
to play in New Jersey and what I remember, now you have got to figure me a little
country girl and we’re out here in New York, never been there, never been to that large a
city, and we had a rained out night or something and one of the older ladies had been to
New York City and she said, “I know how to take the subway”, we were staying in New
York, New Jersey and we had to take the subway, and we were going to go over and see
Times Square and some kind of show. There were twelve of us and six of us got on and
the one that knew her way around didn’t make it and the six of us were scared to death,
but somebody had enough sense to say, “let’s get off at the next stop and wait on them”
and that’s what we did and we got back together. 9:25 The good lord was watching after
us.
Interviewer: “So basically the teams spent the whole season on the road going from
one place to another?”
All the traveling teams, yes.
Interviewer: “You get to the end of the season and what happens?”
Well you just—some of them—the bus was originally from around the Fort Wayne area
and unless you left there, which I did and we brought the girl from Shreveport, Louisiana
back, my brother, and my sister and her husband came to pick me up because I wouldn’t
have known how to catch a bus back. I guess I could have been told, but my folks
weren’t going to let that happen. We gave her a ride back to Shreveport, but the rest of
them, a lot of them rode back to the Midwest on the bus and disbanded then. 10:13
Interviewer: “Now how did you communicate with your family while you’re
traveling around to all these places?”
Telephone and writing. Of course the folks had a schedule of where we were going to be
and they sent a letter ahead by week or something like that.
Interviewer: “That makes sense, so you’d get the winter off? You would go back
home then for the winter?”
Well, I had another year of high school.
4
�Interviewer: “So you go back to school. Does the season start then before the
school year’s over?”
Yes, I got permission to get out of high school to go to spring training.
Interviewer: “Where did they hold spring training for you?”
The first year that I went to spring training was in Cape Girardeau in Missouri. Before,
when it was really going, a lot of fans before the war was over, they got to go to Cuba,
Biloxi, Mississippi and a lot of places. 1 1:07 I got to go the first year to where did I
say? Cape Girardeau in Missouri, but after that South Bend usually went ahead and
practiced at home. The season got to starting a little bit later. That first year I went into
the league, it started in April and after that it started more like in April, the first of May.
Interviewer: “You moved from the traveling team, the barnstorming team and
junior level teams, to one of the regular teams in 1950 and you had kind of a crazy
set of assignments that year. Can you explain what happened to you that year?”
11:47
Okay, I went to spring training with Muskegon, we trained in Cape Girardeau with the
Fort Wayne Daisies and I know my dad was thrilled to death to get to meet Jimmy Foxx,
he was a professional and coached the Daisies. We played ball, we stopped off and
played at different towns on our way back north, well, by the time we got to Muskegon,
Michigan, they had us younger kids, at least two or three, staying with a family, they had
rooms, and we didn’t even get to play the first game because they disbanded the
Muskegon Lassies team. 12:30 As I understand it and what I can remember, is they had
done away with men’s baseball during the war, that’s one of the reasons the league was
formed, and they decided to bring minor league baseball back. That was my
understanding and I could be wrong, so we had to move on. They sent me to Peoria,
Illinois, the Red Wings, and I was there maybe five or six weeks and I had some very
good games, I pitched a sixteen inning game I lost and it ended two to one and pretty
soon South Bend traded for me and of course I didn’t know what was going on when they
told me to report to somebody. They put me on the bus and I reported there myself.
13:12
Interviewer: “Did you spend most of your career with South Bend?”
Yes sir, except I was on loan to Battle Creek one time for ten days or so.
Interviewer: “How did that work, being on loan?”
Well, I was disappointed at first, but I went over there and old “Mudcat Grant” was a
former professional pitcher and he had a lot of confidence in me and he wanted to pitch
me every chance—as soon as I had two or three days rest and wasn’t pitching, he put me
in another position, so when South Bend called me back I was a little unhappy at first, but
then we went on and won two championships and in the long run I was happy I went
5
�back to South Bend. I did get to play some first base and some other places before it was
over, even in South Bend. 14:03
Interviewer: “When you were in South Bend, what kind of living accommodations
did you have?”
Well, the first year I roomed with another lady, a widow lady who had rooms there.
After that four of us were able to get an upstairs apartment. One of the ladies, Wimp
Baumgartner in fact, had a car and three of us didn’t, so we kind of paid to help with
expenses and all. It gave us two bedrooms, a kitchenette and bath and everything.
Interviewer: “The league did not have a problem with that in terms of supervision
or anything?”
No, because well, Wimp was a little bit older than the others and I was—I must have
been seventeen that first year I lived in an apartment, but you were still supervised to a
certain extent by the family who owned the building even when you were that young.
We had to go through their front and up the stairs. 15:02
Interviewer: “Talk a little bit about your pitching career. You mentioned you had
a sixteen inning game you pitched, did you pitch any no hitters?”
I pitched a no hitter on tour, one error light of being a perfect game.
Interviewer: “The record books also mentioned that you pitched the most innings
of anyone in the league in 1953.”
I don’t know, I pitched a double header too and won both games.
Interviewer: “Now, you mentioned you were on the team for two championship
seasons, can you tell me a little bit about those, what went on or what helped your
team get ahead?”
Of course the first one we won we had a full team and good pitchers and I had my starts
and everything and I kind of hate to talk about the second one, but I will since this is
history. The second championship I played on we had a terrific team. 15:56 the last
game of the season we had a second baseman that she and the manager didn’t get along
greatly and he was trying to rest her and some of the starters because we were already in
the playoffs and I think it made her mad and she was sitting on the bench and had her
spikes off and everything and I think I got on base and he called for her to go in as pinch
runner and she wasn’t ready. Of course he saw it , that’s why he did that exactly, and
they had a big dispute and he kicked her off the team for good. I mean the playoffs were
going to start in just a couple days and it ended up that we lost seven players, five of them
starters. Left fielder, center fielder, second baseman, first base pitcher, third baseman and
another pitcher that walked off to support her and left us with twelve players. 17:06
6
�Interviewer: “So then what did you do?”
We won the championship.
Interviewer: “With just twelve?”
Yes, with just twelve. When I wasn’t pitching I was playing right field usually and one
night when I was pitching and I got in a little trouble, I had a left hand batter up that had
hit me pretty hard and the manager’s wife, Jean Fout, a great star anywhere she played,
was playing third base, she had to play third when she wasn’t pitching, and Elwood
called time and put her in to pitch to the left hander, put me on third base, the only time I
ever played third base in my life, and my knees were just shaking and he said, “you play
in half way and don’t let her bunt one. We got her out and the next inning I went back in
to finish the game. 17:56 That was—my knees couldn’t have shaken any worse. I
would be threatened to be killed playing third base, right in on top of the batter.
Interviewer: “But it was just for that one batter at least.”
One batter and I don’t think I could have made it back out the next inning to play third
base. That’s kind of a hot corner.
Interviewer: “Over the course of time that you were playing with the league, what
kinds of changes seemed to take place with it in terms of fan support or other
things?”
Well, the people had more things to do, television started coming in and attendance
started dropping and that was eventually what killed the league of course, but also the
baseball, I guess it was ten inches when I first started, and in the last year we played with
just a regular baseball, which was in my favor because all my life I had played at home
with a regular baseball. 18:56 I loved the little ball much better. Those were the main
changes and I think things got a little bit looser as far as chaperoning and making sure
you did this and you did that, but it was still a good game.
Interviewer: “Were you planning on going back and playing in 1955 when the
league shut down?”
Yes sir, I could have cried my heart out. I just turned twenty at the end of that season and
I figured I had a good nine or ten years left if it had gone on. I was just starting—I had a
pretty good temper, I could get mad and I was starting to get to control it a little bit better.
I would have liked to have another five years; I’ll put it that way. 19:47
Interviewer: “Were you surprised that it shut down or were you kind of expecting
it?”
Well, there had been rumors, yes. I know some of the trips we made that last year that
we played, some of the time we were taken in cars instead of a bus, so yes.
7
�Interviewer: “What was the fan support like in South Bend?”
It was real good when I first began playing and it started dropping off as it did most other
places.
Interviewer: “Now when the league itself shut down, what did you do at that
point?”
Well, I had already played basketball in South Bend with the South Bend Rockettes in
1953 and 1954, so I went home a few weeks and I had put my application in at Bendix
Aircraft on that break and was called up in October for a job. I wanted to play basketball
that year, but I needed the job, so I stayed on in South Bend and played basketball and
worked at various jobs until 21:00 I promised my dad in 1959 that I would come back to
Arkansas the next year and go to college. My younger brother started college, Church
College, and he wanted me to go and I promised him in November. I went back to South
Bend, I choke-up on this I’m sorry, but I promised him and that was the last time I saw
him alive. He dropped dead of a heart attack on January the second, so I figured it would
take me—I didn’t figure I could go then and pay my way, but I worked one more year
and saved my money and I had some savings bonds and I said, “well, I promised him”, so
the second year after he was gone I did go back, but I went to Arkansas State Teachers
because it was cheaper and I could get some financial help after I went a year and
realized I could make it because I had been out of high school—I was twenty-six then
see. 22:02 When I decided I could make it, I was able to get loans and since I did go
into education, I didn’t have to pay a lot of that back, so I was able to make it.
Interviewer: “How does that work? You say you didn’t have to pay a lot of that
back?”
If you taught school, they were crying for teachers at that time, and if you went into
teaching you only had to pay a very small percentage—I think I paid it off in about five
years, so I worked also too.
Interviewer: “You mentioned you were playing basketball and you were working
for a company, did companies sponsor teams or how did that work?”
No, they just tried to get you jobs with the—our business manager would ask around and
get the players a job that needed them. I worked at Bendix, but then Bendix—there was a
nose dive again, was it in the late fifties? 22:57 The economy kind of got bad, but I was
lucky enough to always be able to get a job especially during basketball season.
Interviewer: “Then how long were you a teacher?”
Twenty-five years.
Interviewer: “Where did you teach?”
8
�Well, I started out in a country school in Cass County, Indiana, out of Logansport and I
went home for the summer and the superintendent from Logansport had a friend of mine
that knew that I played softball with called me to see if I would come back and teach
summer school, they needed another summer school teacher, so I was with my mother,
but I had a sister living in Mr. Pleasant, Michigan with her family and brought mother
back to visit up there and I taught school about five or six weeks. Before the summer
was over the superintendent wanted me—he moved his staff around here in town because
he wanted me to teach school in Logansport because he was for girls athletics and they
were—that was before they really had teams and he was interested, it was through GAA
and stuff, but he was interested in them being taught the rules and the skills of different
sports, so then I taught in Logan the last twenty-four years. 24:15
Interviewer: “When you think back on your career as a baseball player, are there
particular events or things that happened to you or people that tend to stick out in
your mind or that come back to you that you haven’t really talked about here yet?”
Well of course Lou Arnold was a fascination for me and an encourager, and I still give
her a lot of credit. What I remember about her, about the first year of spring training
there, of course I was use to playing with boys remember, and I was kind of who could
get the ball first you know and one day when we were ready to warm up and everything, I
dived in to get the ball and Lou just kind of said, “now Sue just slow down, there’s
enough to go around, just take your time”, she was just always trying to encourage—on
manners, “thank you”. 25:10 Raised on a farm with boys it’s kind of rude how we—
even though I had a good mother and father , good disciplinarians, you still, you fought
for what you thought was yours, so Lou helped me in a lot of things like that, I’ll say that.
25:25 Lenny Zintak, who was on the tour, and when I was on the tour I, was teased a
great deal for of my southern accent and my hillbilly ways. I didn’t mind a great deal
except sometimes I would almost be in tears. On my sixteenth birthday, when I entered
the bus, he grabbed me and gave me a great big kiss, of course my face turned all read
and I was about half way—he said, “now Sue”, he didn’t say it right there in front of
people, but he said, “ I want you to realize when people kid you, they like you, so take
that as a compliment”, and I always think that now too and I can thank Lenny Zintak for
that. 26:08
Interviewer: “Going back at your career, how do you think that wound up affecting
you, either the person you became or the kind of life or career you went into?”
A great deal, I might never have left the state of Arkansas and I doubt that I would have
even gone on to get a college education. All the friends you make and all the places you
go and I kept in touch with a great deal of those friends and then when we started having
these reunions—when would I have ever had a chance to be a small part of a movie like
“A League of Their Own”, and get to pitch batting practice with Penny Marshall and stuff
like that. 26:56
Interviewer: “How good of a hitter was Penny Marshall?”
9
�Well, she could hit the ball. It was not like some of the others that I had to hit the bat for
them, the older boys.
Interviewer: “What did you think of the movie it’s self? Do you think it did a good
job?”
I thought it did a good job and of course part of it was Hollywood. The Major never
would have gone in the locker room and wouldn’t have been drunk like that they
wouldn’t have allowed that. A lot of people thought that they never would have had a
little boy like that, but Jean Fout and the manager were man and wife and sometimes if
they didn’t have a baby sitter their little Larry was with us. I’ve got a picture of he and I
on the steps of the dugout in Kalamazoo I think it was. I was tying my shoe and he was
standing there helping me. 27:54 People that I’ve heard—I saw the movie and been a
lot of places and given a little talk, even though I’m not a good speaker, about it and
when somebody would bring up that I would say, “oh yes, there’s nothing false about that
because we ourselves had a little boy and he traveled part of the time”. He had his own
little uniform and that was based on him probably.
Interviewer: “Speaking of pictures, I heard there was a publicity picture of you on
a donkey, could you explain that?”
Yeah, well it was during spring training and the manager said I was going out to so and
so’s farm in the afternoon to have my picture taken on a donkey and I think they had a
suitcase for me, I don’t think I had to take mine. 28:42 It was just for publicity and that
was probably in 1952, it might have been earlier, when attendance was dropping,
anything for publicity, we had to do anything, but I was supposed to be coming in for
spring training riding my donkey and I was a little irritated because it wasn’t at least a
saddle horse as I said, but that’s alright. They had a night, I guess it was baseball,
running, pitching for accuracy, and they brought that darn donkey out and I had to ride
him to the mound, there’s no pictures of that, but that crazy thing balked on the third
baseline and I had to get off of him and lead him across and get back on him. I did
because I was stubborn too and made him take me to the mound, but anything to try to
help attendance. 29:39
Interviewer: “Now, do you think they ought to come and try to create a women’s
national baseball league again?”
That would be great for women who love baseball as much as I did and the rest of these
ladies.
Interviewer: “Do you think that’s something that’s likely to happen at some point?”
I don’t know, you have got to have sponsors.
Interviewer: “Do you pay much attention to like, women’s basketball for instance,
there’s a professional league out there now?”
10
�Off and on, off and on--they play good basketball and I’d of liked to been able to play on
that because I love basketball during basketball season like I love baseball during
baseball season, so it would have been hard for me to choose, I’d of liked to play them
both. 30:21
Interviewer: “Anything else you would like to add to the record here before we
close out the interview?”
I think we pretty well covered everything.
Interviewer: “You tell a good story, so thank you very much.” 30:31
11
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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RHC-58_SKidd
Title
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Kidd, Sue (Interview transcript and video), 2009
Creator
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Kidd, Sue
Description
An account of the resource
Sue Kidd was born in 1933 in Choctaw, Arkansas. She got her interest in baseball from her father and two brothers who she played with regularly as a child. Growing up, Kidd played other sports too like football and basketball but eventually decided on a career in baseball following a meeting with her high school guidance counselor. In the spring of 1949, Kidd, at age 15, was scouted and tried out for a pitcher position in Little Rock, Arkansas. Beginning her professional career in 1950 Kidd played until 1954 when the All American Girls Professional Baseball League ended. At the start of 1950, Kidd played for the Muskegon Lassies, Peoria Redwings, and South Bend Blue Sox. In 1951, she played for the South Bend Blue Sox but then was on loan for a brief time with the Battle Creek Belles. From 1952 to 1954 she stayed with the South Bend Blue Sox. In that time, she pitched and won two double headers in 1953 and won two championships. She played pitcher, first base, and right field during her time with South Bend. When the league shut down in 1954 she went on to play basketball with the South Bend Rockettes until 1959 when she went on to pursue a career in teaching which did for twenty-six years. She wraps up the interview by discussing how baseball impacted her.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players-Illinois
Baseball players--Indiana
Women
Language
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eng
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-09-25
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/87d150df23d71e970e32f6030510fc96.m4v
802089bdaa466bc342b6de51a77b992d
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a99fe20f27f3ae797fc06c1ea9a723c5.pdf
e6a8ae81ecf1ed27f463e1803d7458bc
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans’ History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Dolly Nemic Konwinski
Length of Interview: (01:23:44)
Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like? Where did you grow up?
What was your neighborhood like and your family?”
It was a typical, typical working class neighborhood. The neighborhood consisted of
Bohemians and Polish and Jewish and it was the most wonderful—growing up in this
neighborhood was exceptionally fun as I can remember and to go to school with this
group and to grow up with, I should say, the boys because that was my main team mates.
We went to grammar school together, to kindergarten and elementary and high school.
Interviewer: “What did your father do for a living?”
Well, in the depression he was with the WPA, I forget what that stands for.
Interviewer: “It was Roosevelt’s way of getting people to work.”
Right, my mother was a stay at home mother of course—back then all moms stayed home
and cooked, washed, etc. My dad played softball with a neighborhood group and in
Chicago, I guess you get the picture—in the neighborhood where there’s a tavern on
every other corner. Well, my dad would stop and have a little refreshment on his way
home and that’s the group he played horseshoes with and played softball with and not
having a boy, I was the tag along. (02:20) I wouldn’t let my dad out of the house, even
if he was going to the corner store for some “Halva”, which is a Jewish candy by the way.
I would sit by the door so, he had to take me to the softball games, which I was a “gofer”
and some of the men, if they were true ball players, they chased their own shag balls, but
since I was there, I was the “gofer”, to go for the ball. They would say, “Dolly get this”
and of course they couldn’t have picked a better person than me because I wanted this
badly. I wanted to be on the ball field since I can remember.
Interviewer: “Why? What was your motivation? I know your back to your early
childhood, but what was it about baseball that appealed to you as a young kid?”
(03:15) You know, that’s really a hard question, but my love for my father, I wanted to
be just like him and I would do things just like my dad and I just took to the sport. I
didn’t like dolls—I have a sister and she had the most beautiful dolls in the neighborhood
and I don’t know where they got the money to buy these, maybe they went down to the
relief station and picked them up, but she had these beautiful dolls and I had the best bat
and ball in the neighborhood. (03:56) Of course doing that, the boys all loved me too,
but I was good—I was good when I was a kid.
Interviewer: “How old were you when you actually started playing baseball?”
1
�I was probably seven or eight.
Interviewer: “Whom did you play with?”
I played with the boys in the neighborhood.
Interviewer: “Where?”
Well, if you can close your eyes and picture a neighborhood in Chicago and you will find
that the streets were narrow and they held a car, if you were lucky enough to have one
parked there. We use to play softball there and we used the manhole cover and the drains
as first and the manhole cover as second and so on, and then we took chalk and drew
home plate in the street. (04:53) When we started, we wanted to play baseball and
Kuppenheimer Clothes had a factory just a half a block away and in back of the factory
was a field, a large field and that’s where me and the boys went to play ball.
Interviewer: “Were you the only girl?”
I was the only girl.
Interviewer: “Did other kids come out to watch you play?” (05:22)
No, they played. I remember that movie “Sand lot” and I loved that movie because it’s
what I did when I was a kid. We went out there and we played “round robin”, you hit,
you fielded, you pitched, you were a Cub fan or a Sox fan and you took their names, you
took Stan Hack, you took Andy Pafko, but I was a Sox fan and I was in love with Luke
Appling so, I played short stop and I always told—you call me Luke—I wanta be Luke
Appling, I want to play professional baseball just like Luke Appling and not realizing
what was going to happen in the distant future. (06:13)
Interviewer: “That was fantasy because you couldn’t play even if you—we know
what actually happened later, but as a child at that time playing--fantasizing about
playing professional baseball, there were no women in baseball at that time”.
You know the old saying “Girls can’t play baseball”, well I did and I was a good player.
I wasn’t the best, I wasn’t a home run hitter, but I always was picked first if I wasn’t the
captain. Maybe it was because of that bat and ball I had and the boys liked it. I
remember the bat. We played with cracked, cracked at the handle and couldn’t afford to
go out and get a new bat—didn’t have aluminum bats way back then so, my dad took his
manual screw driver and he put a hole through there and put in a screw and then he taped
it up. (07:19)
He didn’t use the shiny black tape we have today, he used the tape that would get your
hands black, but he taped that bat up and it was as good as new and back to the ball
fields. (07:34)
2
�Of course, we only played now in the summer—wintertime, there was time for skating
and tobogganing and sledding. I think every kid in Chicago had a sled—so our summers
were—and then I had a paper route. I had a Sun Times paper route. The first girl to have
a paper route—a large one too. My sister would help me—please El, please El, I got a
ball game, can you help me deliver these papers? I have to do homework and then I
would have to run out—“They need me, they need me, my sister would say “Ok, ok”, she
is two years younger so—you know when you’re eight and nine and eight and seven. I
would say “Please El?”(08:25)
It was the same with doing dishes when we were young. That was out job—we had to
do the dishes, “Oh mama do I have to do the dishes?” “You have to do the dishes”.
Well, I finally caught on and I would say to my sister, “Will you wipe tonight?” One
night we would wash and one night we would do the wiping, but the dishwasher always
got finished first so, I would say, “El, El, let me wash dishes tonight”, and she would say,
“Well, you washed last night”, and I would say, “I want to get out of here, please, please,
I got a ball game”, because the boys would be sitting on the fence waiting for me. 9:01
“Oh Dolly, oh Dolly, when you were a kid back then that’s what they would yell. Then
when it would come to the pots and pans, I would say, “Oh mama, oh mama, can you do
this pot? It’s really hard and the boys are waiting”. I had a wonderful childhood. I had a
wonderful—when my dad got home from work—we played with a sixteen inch softball
in Chicago and if you hit it enough times it gets like mooch. We were—you know, a
small hand could squeeze it and the ball, when it was hit it would just kind of tumble
around. (09:46)
“Daddy, daddy, I need a new ball”. We had enough money for food, we were never
without food on our table and there he would come home under his arm, with his lunch
basket, would be a ball. Now, I don’t know where he got that ball—we’ll just leave it at
that. (10:12)
Interviewer: “You got through high school and graduated from high school?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Ok, when did you first hear about the opportunity to play baseball?”
One morning after church, my dad stopped at the bakery and we always had bagels and
Kaiser rolls, he stopped at the Jewish market and they were the best in the whole world. I
wish I could go back there today and pick up a dozen. He came home and after coffee he
was reading the paper and he said to me, “Dolly”, he said, “did you know that girls play
baseball?” I said, “Girls don’t play baseball”, he said, “There’s an All American girls
baseball league that’s having tryouts and it’s going to be right in the neighborhood at one
our park districts”. (11:18)
That’s where I played a lot of my sports, at the park—volleyball and whatever girls
played over there, whatever they would let us play. He said, “It’s going to be right down
the street and I want you to go”, and I said, “Oh dad, I’m not”—he said, “You’re a good
ball player Dolly, I want you to go.” Well, the glove I had was—if you go down to the
hall of fame one day, you’ll see the kind of gloves we had. It was probably from the five
3
�and ten cent store, but I had this glove and he said, “I want you to go down there”. “Ok,
I’ll go down”. (12:03)
I never saw so many girls with baseball gloves in my life.
Interviewer: “Now this is a field you had already played in so, you knew where it
was?”
Right down the street.
Interviewer: “Right down the street”.
In the park district.
Interviewer: “What I’m really impressed with is your father really encouraged you
to do this”. (12:22)
He did, and of course my mother, you know, my mother didn’t really know first from
short, but let me tell you one story. One day I said to my mother, “Mom, does it take
longer to get from first to second or second to third?” and she said to me, “Now Dolly,
that was just the most stupid thing you could ask me”, I was laid back and I said, “Well,
what do you mean?” and she said, “Well, it takes longer to get from second to third”, and
I laughed, “What do you mean mom?” She said, “Well, there’s a short stop in-between”.
13:10 I love to tell this story and I love to tell it in front of her because I don’t know
where she got that information, maybe my father whispered it in her ear, but mama didn’t
know too much about sports.
Interviewer: “What did she think about this idea of you going to try out for this
baseball thing?”
Like I say, she didn’t—she knew I went out to play ball so, it was just another going out
in the afternoon and having fun with the boys, but my father had told me “it’s girls
baseball”. When I got there--Interviewer: “Tell me a little bit about the trip over, what were you thinking about
while you were walking over?” (13:56)
Walking is right, I was fifteen—walking over there and thinking to myself, “You know,
will I be able to catch the ball? Are they going to throw really hard to me? Are there
going to be ladies there throwing? What is this all about?” (14:21)
It was about—I would say about three blocks from the house, maybe four and you know
you skip down there and you think and you smile—baseball, baseball, organized. Well,
when I got there to that gym, I had to sign in and there were a lot of men and there were a
lot of women, young girls, in fact, we weren’t women yet, we were fifteen and sixteen
years old. (14:52)
I walked in there and my eyes must have been almost popping out of my head. I could
not believe what I was seeing. Well, you know, grab a friend and here’s a ball and start
4
�throwing and the ball was—I believe the ball was eleven inches. It had come down from
the twelve inch that the league started with and so, we started playing catch and my name
is Dolly—well’ my name is Mary Lou and my name is Ginger and where do you live?
(15:29)
Well, I live way on the south side and what school do you go to? I go to Tillman, and I
went to Farragut, the conversation was just fun and women throwing hard to me, I did not
have to look for a boy to throw the ball to me like I’m use to catching. It went on, we
played catch and of course it was in a gym and so the men, who were coaches, started
hitting ground balls to us, we were in line and we each took our turn fielding the ball and
throwing the ball and we couldn’t hit, but we could slide—slide on a gym floor? Ouch.
(16:18)
It wasn’t strawberries, it was floor burns.
Interviewer: “What were you wearing?”
I was probably wearing a pair of pants and to this day, and I just bought them last year, I
never owned a pair of jeans. It was always a pair of girl’s slacks, some kind of a shirt, I
don’t remember.
Interviewer: “I was just trying to think. It wasn’t a uniform or anything?”
No, I was what everybody had. They had their jeans on and tennis shoes. I don’t know if
I had tennis shoes or if we could afford tennis shoes.
Interviewer: “What year was this?” (17:01)
This was in 1947.
Interviewer: “Ok, so the war was already over with?”
Right, what they were trying to do is get four teams in Chicago, like a farm system,
which the All Americans never had. They were trying to form the farm system with the
local gals and then we lined up and they told us a little bit about the league and what they
were trying to do—get four teams—there would be two south side teams, two north end
teams, and we would play each other. (17:41)
I must have impressed the coaches because they called my name and they came up to me
and they said, “Does your parents know about this?” I said, “Yes, my dad sent me down
here”, and they said, “Dolly, you’re a good ball player”, no Joe DiMaggio, no Luke
Appling, and I said, “Thank you”, and he said, “Would you be interested in playing on
one of the Chicago teams?” I said, “Oh, yes”. Well, they had some literature, some notes
that I had to take home and show my mom and dad. (18:31)
Interviewer: “Did you have a job at this time?”
5
�Just my paper route, just my paper route, and boy when I would get those penny and
nickel tips—you know when you’re nine years old or ten years old, and I had that job
right into high school.
Interviewer: “What were your options? You had a fairly decent relationship with
your father and with your mother, what did you talk about? Obviously professional
baseball was not in the discussions about what you were going to do with your life
before this happened”. (19:03)
Right, right, it—well, I ran home, I mean I ran, I sprinted, I could have beat Owens that
day. I ran upstairs and I said, “Oh daddy, daddy, daddy”, and he said, “What happened,
what happened?” I said, “Daddy, they want me to play, they want me to play”, and he
said, “I knew, I knew it” so, I said, “Mama, can I play ball? Can I play ball?” “Ask your
father, ask your father”, and I said, “Daddy said yes, daddy said yes” so, I brought the
details home and made these friends, Mary Lou Studnicka you know, Ann O’Dowd, we
were picked for the Southside team (19:56) and my other friends, Ginger and Champ
and some of the gals on the North side, Joan Sindelar, they made the North side team and
so, we were going to be playing against each other. (20:11)
Interviewer: “Now, you were getting paid, right?”
Well, no pay, we got our streetcar fare and I think we got fifty cents and that would have
been a lot of money because streetcar fare was a nickel and that would have been ten
cents round trip and that would leave us fifteen cents for a hamburger and a malt. (20:40)
That was the extent of it, just get on—maybe it was a little less, but fifty cents sticks in—
and that was so much money when I think of those nickel tips. We were paid that and I
was still active in the park districts and we were playing volleyball and we had a good
volleyball team. I love that sport to this day. As a kid I loved to go out there and watch
and my grand kids play, but we were playing in the park district tournament and we were
playing for the championship and we won, we won. (21:35)
We were just so happy, so happy and before they gave the medals out, that’s what you
could win, a nice medal, I was called in the office and the lady who was in charge, the
director of this, she said to me, “Dolly, do you play baseball?” And I said, “Oh ya, I do
play”, and she said, “Do you get paid?” I said, “No, I get money for the streetcar to go
there”< and she said, “Well, we heard you got paid and we have to disqualify your team”,
and I said, “You mean we don’t win? Does that mean we don’t win?” She said, “That
means you don’t win”. (22:27)
Well, our coach, I’ll tell ya, I can feel the pain right now—how could they do this to me
for streetcar fare? So, that’s another thing you know, when you’re fourteen or fifteen and
that—it just—so, I quit playing volleyball and I just played in adult leagues when I got
older. I said, “I’ll show them, just don’t call me grandma” but, I played since and then I
stuck to my baseball—still going to school—still in high school now, not being able to
play sports—the only thing girls could do in high school—we had a swimming team, but
they couldn’t be on the swimming team, but they could be divers. (23:28)
We played, of course we played basketball and taking you back a long time ago, we
played half court and six on a team and of course we played volleyball so, I got my thrill
6
�of playing volleyball in high school, loved it, had more fun and played ball with the boys,
I could practice, they wanted me out there to practice so bad, but when they had a game it
was “See you tomorrow Dolly”. (24:04)
Interviewer: “So, what were your options when you got out of high school? What
were you going work as? Were you going to try to get a job as a nurse or what?”
No, this is the most fun, playing with the boys in the field. I played with a young boy, his
name is Joe Schoenberg, how that stick out in my mind I don’t know, but we had a
Mages Sporting Goods store, Morey Mages and his brothers, I don’t remember his
brothers, names, but Joe lived in the apartment building on the first level and Morey
Mages lived above him. (24:48)
We would talk and he said, “Oh Morey, he owns the sporting goods store” and I don’t
know what made me do this, one day after we played ball he said, “Oh, Morey always
gets home about five thirty from the store” so, the wheels are turning in Dolly’s head so, I
went to the corner where Joe and Mr. Mages lived, and he came by one day and I said,
“Mr. Mages?” and he said, “Hello, how are ya?” I said, “Fine, I play ball with Joe
Schoenberg”, and he said, “Well, that’s nice”, and I said, “We play at Kuppenheimer
Field” and he said, “Oh, that’s nice” and I said, “You know I’m playing ball, baseball
with a girls organized team” , and he said, “Well, isn’t that nice?” (25:47)
I said, “Mr. Mages, I need a job, can I get a job (very blunt—no tact) at your store?” and
I think he was taken back and he said, “We don’t have any ladies in sales, we just have
them in the office part”, and I said, “That would be ok, that would be ok, can you use
me?” And he said, “I’ll tell ya, come by after school tomorrow or Monday (this was on a
Friday) and come see me”, “Wow”, I ran home and told my mom that I talked to Mr.
Mages. (26:45)
A long time ago we called our mother and father—we either called her mother or him
father or mama and daddy, because when dad would go out he would say, “You stay
home with mama”, or vice versa. I said, “Mama, mama, Mr. Mages said I could come
talk to him about a job”. She said, “Doing what?” I said, “I don’t know, just working”
and she said, “Well how much?” and I said, “I don’t know, just working” so, I couldn’t
wait until I got home from school, got my paper route done and hopped the streetcar
because Mages was on North Avenue and Crawford, it was just off Crawford, west of
Crawford and I got dressed up as nice as I could look and I took the streetcar out there.
(27:41)
I was so excited my heart was just beating and I got to the store and asked one of the
sales people and they said he was in his office and to go to his office. So, he said, “Well,
hi Dolly” and I said, “Hi Mr. Mages”, and he said, “Well, have you ever sold anything,
do you have any experience?” I said, “No, just playing ball” and he said, “Well, how
would you like to try to be in the shoe department and sell bowling shoes, ice skates and
ski boots?” I thought and said, “Sure, I would like to try, I’d love to”, and I was the first
saleswoman for Mages Sporting Goods. (28:38)
I loved my job, I loved my job and so, after I graduated and was playing ball, playing
ball in the summer and he knew that. I started going to college and I would go right to
work after that and then of course the All Americans came to be where—we graduated in
7
�1949 and we went on a barnstorming tour and I worked when I could and I thought,
(29:14)
“This isn’t fair, maybe there’s somebody who wants the job at Mages” so, I stuck to
baseball where I made some money and graduated high school, left my paper route, my
customers were very sad too because they got their tips worth when they gave me that
five cents and ten cents, their paper was at their door every night and early on Sunday
morning. I did that before church. (29:51)
Interviewer: “Let’s go back now to—you’ve kind of wrapped up your job and your
paper route and all, but how did you find out about the professional All American
Women’s League? How did you find out about that?”
Well, because of that tryout, which was held by the All American, and I was picked for
one of the four teams, which made me a part of the All American.
Interviewer: “You’re not being paid though, you said”.
We weren’t, but then at the end of 1948, after our season, the four teams were brought
together in a meeting and Len Zintack, who was from Chicago and the director of the
four teams, (30:38) asked who would be interested in going on a barn storming tour of
the United States to introduce the game to the south and the east coast so, Chicago had
two teams, they had the Springfield Sallies and the Chicago Colleens, which in 1948 did
not make it. Chicago had the Cubs and the Sox and the Bloomer Girls and some very
good softball teams and our team just couldn’t bring the crowds in. (31:14)
Springfield had the same problem. They had a good minor league team and they had
some good softball teams. So, they took the Colleens and the Sallies and they distributed
those women to the Peaches and Chicks and the teams in the All Americans, and we
became the women and girls who said “yes” they would go on a tour and we became the
Sallies and the Colleens and we traveled together on one bus touring. We started in
Oklahoma City, toured the south, New Orleans, Pensacola—(31:59)
Interviewer: “Playing against each other?”
Yes, against each other. Maybe on day I was a Colleen and one day I was a Sally, but it
didn’t make any difference, people were out to see the two teams play. We were heavily
advertised and we had wonderful crowds, we had wonderful crowds and they accepted
us. There was no one saying that girls can’t play baseball because we showed them a
very good brand of baseball. (32:29)
Interviewer: “What were you wearing?”
We were wearing the uniforms of the All Americans, the ones the Colleens and Sally’s
had.
Interviewer: “What did it look like?”
8
�It was like the pictures you see today, the uniform of the All American Girls Professional
Baseball League.
Interviewer: “You had a baseball cap and a top, but then there was a skirt.”
The—Mrs. Wrigley designed those uniforms. She wanted every one of the women to
look like ladies and the men, the manager, play like men, and that’s what we wore. It
was a skirted uniform with shorts underneath and the stockings up to our calf. 33:14
Interviewer: “How did you feel about this? This is a different time, now you can
walk around in a skirt and you can have it as short or as long as you want, there is
no difference, but in those days women didn’t wear skirts like that.”
No we didn’t and if you find a picture of the first four women who played ball, you will
notice their skirts are almost to their knees, which was still—you know, if you’re sliding
and your skirts coming up and you’re going see the shorts, but that’s all you’re going to
see. Well, each year the gals took a hem up, which was ok, the chaperones never said
anything and I don’t think anyone was reprimanded for taking a hem up and making the
skirt a little shorter. (34:08)
Interviewer: “The reason is because of the running and the—?”
Probably the running, and people say, “Well how did you ever slide or play in those
skirts?” And this was the easiest thing to do because we had shorts on and like so many
high school and college teams have today, we had a little skirt that covered that, which
made it a little more feminine looking. The charm school of course-Interviewer: “You had to go through the charm school?”
That was in the beginning of the league and I didn’t join the league until, you know, 1949
or 1948 so, I was not into make-up, but the chaperones made sure that when you were out
in public, you looked like a lady in al phases at all times. (35:08)
Interviewer: “You did this barnstorming tour, which was playing basically against
the same teams that you were playing with. When did that shift into being part of
the league that played other cities and other towns?”
After the 1949 barnstorming tour, which ended in—I believe it ended in August,
sometime in August, we were all allocated to teams in the All American League. So, my
friend Delores Muir, who just passed away two weeks ago, we were sent to the South
Bend Blue Sox. Dave Bancroft accepted us and I don’t think I played a game because it
was about two weeks. I think I was there long enough for a 1949 team picture and Grand
Rapids needed an infielder and South Bend needed a pitcher so, I was traded. (36:13)
I joined the Grand Rapids Chicks in 1949. Most of the gals did the exact—they were
sent to South Band and Fort Wayne and Peoria.
9
�Interviewer: “What was your first impression of Grand Rapids when you came
here?”
This is kind of a small city compared to Chicago. I said to somebody, “I would like to go
downtown, how long is it going to take me?” And they said, “Oh, five or ten minutes”. I
lived in Madison Square and I said, “Five or ten minutes, what?” And they said, “The
bus will get you down there”, and that reminds me—my mother came to visit and she
said she wanted to go downtown. Well, I had a game to get ready for so I said, “Ok
mama, you’re going to go to Hall St. and the fire department is on the corner of Madison
and the bus will stop and he’ll take you downtown. (37:16)
Now, notice the number of the bus and where you got off and that’s where you’ll get on”
and she said, “Ok, no problem”. Well, I get a phone call and the first thing she asked the
bus driver was she wants to go down to the loop and he said, “You must be from
Chicago?” Well, she wanted to go downtown and she got off at the wrong stop and she
went into the fire department, which was just down the street, but she didn’t recognize
anything and they told her where she wanted to go. (37:52)
That’s just kind of a side story, but I love Grand Rapids, I love Grand Rapids and it was
so fun to play here and the people I stayed with, they treated us like their daughters. I
stayed on Horton Street, right off Cottage Grove and these people, like I say, we paid
them our rent, I don’t remember what it was a month, not much, but they always told us
the refrigerator is always open. On our day off they would say, “Dolly, would you like to
have dinner with us tonight?” (38:38)
We were so a part of their family and so welcomed here that I’m sure the minor league
baseball teams that we have today stay with these families and are treated like their sons
and you don’t forget.
Interviewer: “Lets go back to—you signed up originally with this one team and you
were traded to the Grand Rapids Chicks. You’re getting paid now and there’s a
contract, give us some idea what that was about. You had to sign a contract for
what. What period of time and how much were you paid?” (39:17)
Well, first of all when I agreed to go on that barnstorming tour, my mother and dad had to
go downtown to the Wrigley Building and sign a contract because I was just sixteen. So,
off on the El we went to the Wrigley Building. They gave their permission and when I
got to South Bend or Grand Rapids, I had signed a contract on my own, I was eighteen
and I made sixty-five dollars a week and that was really big money. (40:00)
I didn’t even make that at Mages Sporting Goods. When I was on the tour, going back
to the tour in 1949, I want to say we made twenty-five dollars a week, but of course
everything was paid for, our hotel, of course the bus, we didn’t have to worry about—we
did have to buy our own meals, but I had enough money that when I left I said to my
mother, “I’m going to send you some money home and I want you to go buy yourself
some stockings or a slip, I want you to treat yourself to something, treat yourself and do
not put this money away, treat yourself, I’m ok”. (40:45)
When I got home, going back now to 1949, when I got home I said, “What did you buy
mama? What did you buy? Did you buy yourself some new shoes or stocking or a slip
or a dress?” She said, “No, I saved the money for you”, and I said, “Mother, why did you
10
�do this? I sent the money for you to treat yourself”, and she said, “I knew you would
need it for school” and so, “Ok, I got money”. I don’t remember what I had, two hundred
dollars or something like that in savings so, I went to my dad and I said, “Daddy can I
buy a car?” He said, “What are you going to use a car for?” I said, “I don’t know, can I
buy a car?” (41:51)
He said, “We’ll see”. Well, he and my uncle, my uncle Rudy, go out looking for a
car—now, I haven’t graduated yet from high school in 1949 so, one day I come home
from school—take the streetcar—came home from school and he said, “I got a surprise
for you”, and I said, “We’re going to get a car, we’re going to get a car?” and he said,
“Come on outside”. I almost cried, I mean I almost cried because here was this 1936
Plymouth four door—here’s your car, and I don’t know if people go back and log into old
cars, but they have the back door—the front door opened this way and the back door
opened this way. Well, I really didn’t want a four door gray car, but what could I say—
he would probably say, “Well, I’ll take it back”. Well Ok, I have a car and the next day I
said, “Daddy can I take my car to school?” (43:08)
Well, he jumped out of his chair and he said, “Are you crazy? Are you crazy? Nobody
drives a car to school, you take the streetcar”. So, there I am ten cents on the streetcar
and I have this 1936 Plymouth sitting in front of my house, but that’s the way it was back
then. If you see the schoolyards today, there are not many that don’t drive. It was fun to
do this, it was fun to do this and in high school I was about to graduate and my class
honored me with the most likely to succeed and in my log, Frigate, you know, the ship—
we had the log and in there it said that I wanted to be a professional baseball player, long
before the dream came true, and being outstanding athlete in my class, which made me
proud. (44:25)
I also was in the concert band and concert orchestra—I played the trombone. I had
wonderful, wonderful years in high school and all through school. Now I’m a
professional baseball player and when we have our reunions, I take the log with me and I
say, “Ok you guys, how many else lived up to what they put in the log?”
Interviewer: “Tell us about your experience with the Grand Rapids Chicks. Do you
remember your first game with them?”
Oh yes, the first game was Racine, Wisconsin and I was put right into the lineup and the
first two times at bat, I got hits and I will never forget that. (45:09)
Since that first game it became a little bit more difficult to get a hit because they knew I
couldn’t hit a curve ball and all those wonderful pitchers we had who threw fast ball with
a hop on it, they had equally wonderful curveballs. All they had to do was throw that to
me, but we played at South Field, the Grand Rapids Chicks played, and of course South
Field was a football field before they made it a baseball field. Of course we had a short
right field and with the fast balls, I could make line drives to right field—I was a good
hitter to right—but of course they knew I wasn’t that speed demon that a long time ago I
was and they would throw me out at first. (46:12)
Well, there went my batting average so, I was good field no hit, but I remember those
first two hits in Racine , Wisconsin.
Interviewer: “What was your position with the Grand Rapids Chicks?”
11
�I played third base, but at times I played second base, when our pitcher Zig would be on
the mound. I think because I was a good infielder and I had played second at one time, I
could make the double play very easy—it wasn’t difficult for me to do that—I started out
as a shortstop back in the schoolyard days, you know, Luke Appling.
Interviewer: “Professionally though, you were a third baseman?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Who were some of the teams you were playing at that time?”
We played of course, the “Rockford Peaches”, “South Bend Blue Sox”, “Peoria Red
Wings”, “Fort Wayne Daisies”, “Racine Belles”, “Kenosha Comets”, “Muskegon
Lassies”, when the league started to slow down and attendance—Battle Creek bought the
“Belles” so, we had the “Battle Creek Belles”, Muskegon slowed down so, Kalamazoo,
Michigan bought the “Lassies” and we had the “Kalamazoo Lassies”. 47:37
Interviewer: “What was a season like? The first season you played with them?
Was it a lot of traveling; was it a lot of home games? What was the actual season
like?”
I think we were split—home and away games. We played seven days a week, double
headers on holidays and Sundays and there were a lot of rain dances. We looked forward
to rain when we didn’t have a day off for a long time, but occasionally we had a day off.
Usually if we were traveling we’d have a night game and travel in the morning either to
South Bend—wouldn’t make the long trip to Peoria, we would stop at South Bend or Fort
Wayne or Rockford before going on to the longer miles. (48:35)
Interviewer: “What were these road trips like? I that when you’re traveling a lot
and then you have to play a game and then you’re traveling some more, but you’re
young of course, you’re very young, but what were these road trips like for you?
Did you like them? Were they tiring? Were they fun?”
You learn to sleep on the bus. We traveled on the Division Avenue bus line, which was a
step above a school bus, the seats were more comfortable, and so, you could take a nap.
They were fun, you would sit with a friend and chat and sometimes we would sing.
Sunday morning Alma Ziegler give her sermons so, we had a touch of religion in there
one way or another. (49:37)
Interviewer: “This is the baseball playing nun you were talking about?”
No, this was Alma Ziegler, Gabby Ziegler who played for the Grand Rapids Chicks. I
never played with our former nun. I did play with Tony Palermo, his sister Toni Marie
Palermo, she’s still in the convent, and when we have reunions today, Saturday night she
gets on the podium and reminds everybody that Sunday is tomorrow morning and “Do
you have your wakeup call in there? (50:15)
If you don’t go to church you know we’ll pray hard for you.” So, we do have a nun
still in the convent. Alice Harnet was a nun—we had three nuns—we have three
12
�physicians—three doctor. Mary Roundtree, who was a catcher for the Grand Rapids
Chicks sometime ago, just passed away in Miami and she was a surgeon, a very, very
outstanding doctor and Audrey Wagner played for, oh gosh, I don’t want to get this
wrong, I believe the Kenosha Comets and she was a doctoring California and she flew
her own plane and she was going to a medical convention and crashed. So, we lost not
only lost one of the outstanding outfielders and hitters and outstanding physicians, but we
lost Audrey too. (51:26)
Interviewer: “These road trips to other towns, had you traveled—I know you were
from Chicago and Chicago of course is a big city with a lot of different types of
people and different things around you—groups and what not. How different was it
when you went to all these other towns? Was there a sense of I’m in a new town
here, I’m from a big city and this is a small town, what were your reactions to these
other areas and places?”
Of course the towns were all the size of Grand Rapids so we enjoyed it. We stayed in
very nice hotels, we were given three dollars a day meal money so, we always had that
fifty-nine cent breakfast. If there was a good movie and we didn’t have to play until
evening, we took in the first feature. We saved our two and a half dollars for an evening
meal and sometimes that would only cost us a dollar and a half so we saved a dollar.
(52:31)
The towns were lovely, the fans of course were anti-Chicks, but they only treated us that
way when we were at the ball field, you know boo, boo, boo and what have you.
Cheered hard for their teams, Fort Wayne was noted—they had a tailor in Fort Wayne
and of course we had to wear skirts, and it seemed like every team visited this tailor to
have their skirts made. (53:03)
We would pick the material up and he would measure us up and then on our next trip
back, we would pick-up our skirts and you could tell everyone who had their skirts made
by him, they were very tailored. I think I wore them when I was married. I mean the
herringbones and the wool skirts so; I remember that about Fort Wayne. Fort Wayne also
had a sporting goods store that would carry spikes our sizes. Rawlings made the spikes
and they would carry a size four or a size five, specially made for the women. Another
city that’s well known is, I believe, Racine that had the Jockey--Jockey Cooper and they
made the men’s underwear. Well, at one time they would turn their factory over for a
short period and they would make Jockey underwear for the women, of course a whole
different pattern in the front, but we would always order out undies from Jockey so, those
are two towns. (54:34)
Interviewer: “What ever happened to your—the place you worked for, the sports
place you worked for in Chicago?”
Mages? You know, I believe Mages sold his stores when he retired.
Interviewer: “I mean when you became a baseball player and they were actually
paying you to be a professional baseball player did you ever go back there?”
13
�I did, I did and I talked to all my friends there and they kept saying, “You’re playing
baseball now and I’d have some pictures to show them and they were quite proud and I
said, “Now you catch our games if you go to Kenosha, which is a short drive”, That’s
where my mom and dad would catch our games, up in Kenosha. “It’s a short drive—
come see us and call me and let me know if you’re coming and I’ll get you tickets”, so,
they were quite proud that I made a stepping stone to something I loved. (55:37)
Interviewer: “How did your dad react to that?”
Oh, my dad was so proud. He would tell everybody, my Dolly is playing baseball,
softball, my Dolly is playing baseball and we’re going to see her next weekend. They
had a car—I don’t know what happened to my 1936 Plymouth, I guess when I left for
Grand Rapids, I didn’t take that car. He probably sold it, which was good and I don’t
remember back then, but I know I didn’t have my gray Plymouth anymore. (56:17)
People at Mages were quite proud of me and I’d always ask them, “Do you miss me in
the shoe department?” When I’d talk to people, especially when I’d sell them a pair of
ski boots I’d say, “Well, where do you ski?” They would say, “Well, in northern
Michigan”, and I’d say “Northern Michigan, past Grand Rapids?” “Oh, Boyne City and
Traverse City”, and not being familiar with northern Michigan, I said, “Oh, I think that’s
quite a bit North of Grand Rapids, I play ball there”, and they would say, “Oh, you do?”
Of course they wouldn’t see me in the summertime so, I’d sell ski boots and of course
bowling shoes and going back to 19—in the early forties, when the war started, in 1943
my uncle enlisted, that was my fathers very best friend. (57:19)
Now, my dad bowled too and again, “tag along Dolly”, I can remember the Windy City
Bowling—they were bowling alleys back then, not bowling lanes, and he would take me
and they would have the best orange soda in the whole world so, “Daddy, daddy can I go
with you tonight? Can I go with you?” and he would take me with him and the first thing
we would get in there, he would go to the bar and I’d have my orange soda and he would
say, “Now, sit and be quiet”, and I would say, “Oh, I’ll be very quiet”. I would watch his
team bowl and I said to him one time, “Can I try this game? Can I try bowling?” and he
said, “Ok” so, one Sunday morning after church we went to the bowling part and he got
me a ball with small finger holes and my father always bent over, it was very unique, he
always bent over and the ball hung down and he would push away. (58:19)
That’s the way I bowl, I followed his form, and there was sometimes the pin boys, you
know, they were off to war and they wouldn’t have one and he would go back to the pits
and he would set pins for me and then I would go back to the pits and I would set a game
for him. That way it only cost us a nickel instead of a dime to bowl a game.
Interviewer: “Let’s get back to baseball.”
I was just going to say that I became a professional bowler too.
Interviewer: “I didn’t know that. The first game you said you played with the
Grand Rapids, Chicks and you had two hits and after that it was a lot more difficult
to get hits because the pitchers were on to you. Is that because you played you
played these teams so often, they were able to—there weren’t that many teams for
one thing—“
14
�There were eight teams at that time.
Interviewer: “Eight teams.”
They each had—I would say, they each had four pitchers so, I didn’t face everybody in
the same series or time after time, but I’m sure I faced all of the pitchers at one time or
another. (59:40)
Interviewer: “How was your first season?”
It was good, it was good, my batting average wasn’t that bad, of course it wasn’t 300, but
I had a good season on the field, I enjoyed playing along side of my team mates, who
were very helpful, John Rawlings was our manager and he was a member of the
Pittsburgh Pirates and very knowledgeable Hall of Fame player, and because my hitting
wasn’t the best, I would have to go out there every day we were home and he would pitch
to me. Today I realize what I was doing wrong. (01:00:31) I was not throwing my arms
out at the ball, I was kind of crimping in on them and I think back, “No wonder I wasn’t a
good hitter, now I have to tell the kids how to throw the bat at the ball” .
Interviewer: “What were some of your memorable games? Which ones really stick
out in your mind?”
I find that question, not impossible, but difficult, because every game out there was a joy
for me. I looked forward to every game we played, there was never a game where I was
bored, there was never a time in my life I was bored, Always something to do,
(01:01:23)
I guess the one game—it was in Kalamazoo and probably the shocker of my life because
I hit one off the fence in center field and it was right off the top of the fence and it came
back into the field and I only got a triple, I don’t know if I scored or not or what
happened because I was in seventh heaven—to see me hit that ball that far—I think John
Rawlings fainted in the dugout. I don’t even know if my team cheered for me because
they must have all been in shock. (01:02:03)
That’s one game that stands out ant that was extremely fun.
Interviewer: “I have seen film footage of professionals like you sliding into a base
and it doesn’t look comfortable. Could you explain what it was like to actually slide
into a base?” (01:02:29)
One experience that I had—now we’ll be shocked again because I got a hit, and I’m
standing on first and not taking a big lead off and John Rawlings gives me the steal sign
and I’m thinking, “Does he know who he’s giving a steal sign to?” Old turtle Dolly?
Well, he thought I could get a—the pitcher had a high kick and “ok, he’s giving me the
steal sign”, I’ll show him I can do it. So, off I take and I slid and I was safe, but I had the
biggest, hurtingest strawberry in the whole world. (01:03:24) Well, everybody is saying,
“Just shake it off, shake it off”, well I’m not going to cry out there—I’d like to—
eventually a hit was made and I scored. I got to the dugout, Dotty Hunter waiting for me
15
�because she knew. Out came the methialate, we had the fan going, which is all your
teammates blowing and I’m thinking, “This is going to burn, this is going to burn like the
fires of hell”. On goes the methialate, on goes the bandage, a big bandage—get out there
and play. (01:04:09)
Well, I did my job, “It doesn’t hurt until the next day I’m thinking, it doesn’t hurt more
until the next day”. The next time I get up—this should be my most memorable game—
Dolly gets a hit—“I got another hit, this pitcher must like me, she’s grooving it”. I’m
standing at first and I look over across the playing field and John Rawlings gives me the
steal sign again and I’m thinking, “If I have to slide, they’re taking me to Butterworth
Hospital or some hospital that’s nearby, I know it for sure”. He gives me the steal sign—
well, up it goes, a high kick again and I ran in there. The catcher threw it to center
field—I didn’t have to slide and I’m thinking, everybody in the dugout is clapping too,
“Hey she made it to second”. Well, I don’t know if I scored on that one or not, but John,
as I came in, he was smiling at me and I said, “Did you think I was going slide again?”
He just smiled and walked away. (01:05:33)
I guess maybe we’ll chuck that hitting the top of the fence and use this as my most
memorable game. Two hits and a strawberry and the “ouchie”. It takes a while for that
to go away and it starts peeling and you want another hit, but if John gives me the steal
sign again I’ll really cry.
Interviewer: “Did anybody ever get hurt that you remember, beaned on the head
with a ball or anything like that?”
I don’t remember, I remember not getting beaned, but going back to the barnstorming
tour, one of our Cuban gals had a fastball, but she also had a very fast curve ball and I
was batting against her and she had thrown me a fastball and it was high, and I knew she
was going to throw me another fastball—I knew it, I knew it—I stood in that box and
here comes that fastball right at my arm, but I thought it was going to curve because she
was kind of smiling—that she would throw me the curve and get me to go for it—so, I’m
waiting for the fast curve and that ball is coming so fast and it didn’t curve and I didn’t
get out of the way and it hit my arm. (01:07:18) I couldn’t lift my arm for two or three
days and it was black and blue and of course we were on the barnstorming tour and we
were all living together and I said, “I thought you were going to throw me a curve”, and
she said, “I a fool a you, right Dolly?” I said, “You didn’t fool me, you hurt me”, but to
this day we’re still friends.
Interviewer: “The crowds initially were big, but you said there was a period of time
where it started to get less, the crowds were less and less. Did you actually notice
that?”
Of course I was through playing in 1952, but I had still gone to some of the games in
1953. I was in an automobile accident and hurt my leg so, that kind of finished my
playing career, but so many people ask, “Why did the league fold? Why did the people?”
This my own theory, now high schools were-this was really a family gathering, families
came to our games and now high schools were beginning to blossom out and have
activities in the evening. Cars now had gas so, dad could go here and mother could go to
the movies and get her dish. Back then if you went to the movies on Wednesday night,
16
�you could make a dish collection. Of course television was in the ballgame now and who
wanted to go out when Uncle Miltie was on? No body, your Show of Shows, they kept
the family around this new invention, television. (01:09:28) So, we saw the crowds drop
and like I say, it was a family and the family went from a closeness to everybody is out
doing their own thing so, the money wasn’t there to pay us and it wasn’t coming from
anywhere but the fans, and I always like to add this today, “We see the family now today,
coming back together. Who’s at the football games together? Who’s at the soccer games
together? Who takes the kids out to the golf course together? It’s mom and dad and the
kids and this is so wonderful because our children need this today. They need to know
that the family once again cares”. (01:10:27)
Interviewer. “I know you have been asked a variation on this question before, but
we know for a fact, the fact that you played baseball, that women played
professional baseball, did have an impact on the changing attitudes that schools had
toward girls playing sports and whatnot and now, as you well know, there’s soccer
teams, girls baseball team, there’s all kinds of things. What is your personal
opinion? What do you think was the effect, not just you, but your fellow players
had on the attitudes that people had towards girls and women?”
I am so proud to have been a part of the All Americans and to show people that women
had skills and if title nine was passed not only because of us, now young ladies can see
their dreams come true, like we saw our dreams, we are so proud to have been a part of
this and I went to a couple of the U.S. Olympic Softball Team games and these women,
these young women come up and to us and hug us and say “Thank you, because of you,
we can do this”, and not only myself, but you can talk to the oldest player in our league
or the youngest and they have the same pride that I do, and young girls, no matter what
they play, the Olympians, to be so proud of that team and to have them say, “Because of
you, we’re here”, makes us so proud. (01:12:38)
Interviewer: “Baseball Hall of Fame, tell us about—how did you find out? What
happened?”
The Baseball Hall of Fame, you know, we didn’t put on any marches, we didn’t put on
any protests, but we had a group of women in Fort Wayne, Dottie Collins—it was our
first board of directors that slowly went there and show them. Ted Spencer—let me tell
you something about Ted Spencer, the Curator. (01:13:27) He was schooled in Boston
and it just so happens that one of the players we had in 1943 named Mary Pratt, happened
to be a gym teacher, not PE, gym teacher in the one of the Boston schools. One of her
students was this young boy named Ted Spencer. Well, when we started, I want to say
we, but I talk about this board slowly infiltrating—no protests, just presenting the facts.
Going there, she found out that Ted Spencer happens to be the curator of the National
Baseball Hall of Fame. (01:14:27)
Well, what an in. so, she goes there, the Hall has a lot of her memorabilia, she contacts
our board and now they start having meetings with him and this has gone on since we
became an organization, a players organization in 1982, and we now get the word that
there’s a possibility that the hall of fame would recognize the All American Girls
17
�professional baseball league. How excited, how excited—I know a lot of the women
today say that we’ve been inducted and it’s because their proud, but in 1988, November
5th, 1988, the National Baseball Hall of Fame recognized all of the All American Girls.
(01:15:33)
They wanted to induct—there were some names thrown at them for induction, but our
board said, “No, we want to go in as a group. If we’re not inducted, we would be
honored to be recognized”, and Jane Forbes Clark, who is the CEO of—and has been one
of our biggest supporters, they have had us there on Mothers Day, and we have signed
autographs, they have—the tenth anniversary of the movie, they had Penny Marshall and
the movie stars, and we were invited to go along and she signed a book and we had
dinner with them, they have promoted us, they have things in their gift shop that are
related to us, they show the movie, Abbott and Costello, A League of Their Own and in
the bleachers, which is a section of the hall of fame, we had our sixtieth reunion and
Cooperstown wasn’t big enough to hold all the women who were going to be there so, we
stayed in Syracuse, but we had buses take us there. (01:17:03)
We had a breakfast in honor of us, we had, right in the hall where the pictures of the hall
of famers are, they had tables set with white table clothes and they had waiters in
tuxedos and white gloves, and they just honored us in the highest praise they could give
us and they do this, they do this. Now when they remodeled, we have a display on the
second floor which has pictures and memorabilia and the honor they have given us, we
are so proud of. (01:17:55)
Interviewer: “That’s wonderful, that’s wonderful. What’s your relationship with
the Whitecaps here locally?”
Before they became the Whitecaps I knew Lew Chamberlin and I talked to him because
he would have lunch at Crystal Springs Country Club. We belong there and we knew
they were working on bringing a baseball team and so many times I would sit down at the
table and say, “Lew, Grand Rapids, Michigan needs baseball back here again, don’t give
up your dream, don’t give up the pushing, don’t give up the hope, of bringing someone
here”, and Mr. VanderWitte is a friend of Lew’s and a friend of mine so, when I would
see him I’d say,” Please, keep prodding him, keep prodding him, people may give him
negative this and that, look what happened here, look what happened there, we need
baseball here”. (01:19:13)
So, I have been, not the last couple of years—summers have been really—I’ve been out
on speaking engagements and doing a lot of traveling, but we were the first ones to have
box seats out there the first season and I can go up and into the office and knock on the
door and say, “How ya going? How’s everything?” “Good, good”, and Jim Jarecki and
their all very close to my heart. Don’t worry, they’ll bring the—they’ve had so many
championships; you have to be proud of this team.
Interviewer: “They are very supportive of this project by the way. I have met with
Dan McCrath and with Jim and they are very much supporting the idea of doing
this documentary film. In fact they even helped—next summer they are going to
have some announcements and we are going to be helping to be part of this Library
of Congress Veterans History Project, to get the veterans who are in that crowd to
18
�come forward and be interviewed. I was very, very pleased with their respect for
not only the project it’s self, but for the “Chicks”. (01:20:22) It’s interesting,
somebody told me that one of the Grand Rapids Chicks threw a ball out this last
season, was that you or do you know who it was?”
I didn’t throw out this season, but we’ve thrown them out several times and Jim has said,
“You know we’ve got to get you girls back there again this year”. I’ve been kind of
proud because I’ve thrown the first ball out for the Braves and the Yankees. The Braves
in Cleveland, the Braves in St. Louis, down at spring training, and two summers ago,
maybe three, time flies when you have fun, I was invited out to Washington D.C. to the
Nationals game, to throw out the first pitch there, and they were playing the Cubs.
(01:21:11) We had a rain delay for a while, but eventually they called me to the mound.
I threw a perfect strike at the catcher, he never moved his glove, and forty seven thousand
people gave me a standing ovation, but now I don’t know why. Is it because I threw the
strike? Is it because an eighty-six year old lady could run? Or eighty—eighty, what am I
talking about? I’m only seventy-six, or I’ll just call it an old lady, could throw the ball?
(01:21:52) When I finished throwing that pitch, I got off the field and was going back to
the seats, of course everybody was standing and clapping and high fives and there were
two ladies that yelled and came running out there and had to have pictures so, were
standing in the aisle and we even held up the beer man for pictures. That was one of my
extremely fun outings.
Interviewer: “As we close, is there anything that you want to say? Something that
you think is important to get on the record about your experience with playing
baseball?” (01:22:37)
The girls and myself had this extra ordinary experience playing baseball in the All
American Girls Professional Baseball League. It was a time that we don’t know if ever
will happen again. We were born at the right time, we were in the right place and our
experience that we had then and that we have now, speaking and making this type of
documentary, the honor it has given us, and we will keep doing it until the grass is above
us. We love what we do—the grandmas out there now do not baby sit anymore, we’ve
told our children to go get a baby sitter because we’re busy doing and telling our story to
people who want to hear it. (01:23:44)
Interviewer: “Thank you so much, it was a real pleasure”
You’re welcome, you’re welcome.
19
�20
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-58_DKonwinski
Title
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Konwinski, Dolores L. (Interview transcript and video), 2008
Creator
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Konwinski, Dolores L.
Description
An account of the resource
Dolly Konwinski was born on May 27, 1931 in Chicago Illinois. Starting at the age of seven, she played baseball with a neighborhood team and her father who encouraged her to pursue it. In 1947, Konwinski got her big break and tried out for one of the four teams the All American Girls Professional Baseball League was trying to form in Chicago. She began her professional career playing for the Chicago Colleens. In 1949, after the barnstorming tour she was allocated to play for the Springfield Sallies. In 1950, she was traded to the Grand Rapids Chicks and played mainly for them until 1952 but played for a brief time with the Battle Creek Belles in 1951. During her professional career she mainly played second and third base.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Women
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2008-10-06
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6ed3e8a5c03803c435a418f3dae4d782.mp4
1805295fd1164da45033b7b401d840f4
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/518c67bc70e7fcbeea0ad8d90535c8e5.pdf
3d90ff8960f8fa1b36d20940bb63107e
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Sophie Kurys
Name of War: All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Length of Interview: (00:49:12)
Interviewed by: Gordon Olson, Saturday September 26, 2009
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, April 6, 2010
Interviewer: “Sophie, before we begin can you tell me a little bit about the earlier
days? When and where were you born, your parents and that sort of thing.”
I was born in Flint, Michigan on May 14, 1925. My dads name was Anthony Kurys and
my mother was Antoinette Pogeska and she was from Poland.
Interviewer: “What nationality is Kurys?”
Kurys is Ukrainian.
Interviewer: “Ukrainian, ok.”
One person said I was a Uka Polock.
Interviewer: “It works for me. It works-- it works. You grew up on the Flint
area?”
I grew up in Flint, Michigan.
Interviewer: “How did you get started playing ball? Did you have older brothers?”
I had two brothers and a sister and we lived across the street from an empty lot and so the
kids in our neighborhood—we had one ball and one bat and we would knock the stuffing
out of that and re-sew it and keep knocking the stuffing out of it. That’s all we ever had,
but it was a wonderful time in my life. When we played in that empty lot it was a
salvation because there were a poor bunch of Polish families in that area.
Interviewer: “If you were in Flint, were they working in the auto industry?”
Well it was in Flint, Michigan and they built Buicks and they had Chevy and that’s where
most of the people worked. My dad worked at the Buick factory and of course we all
went to the catholic school. 2:35
Interviewer: “When did you start playing any form of organized ball?”
Well, as I got older—when I was about thirteen or fourteen, then I played in the city
leagues and I played there until I was seventeen and then when I was seventeen years old
Wrigley sent scouts all over the United States and Canada and I wasn’t even home when I
was scouted. I mean the girls called me up and they finally tracked me down and said,
1
�“Are you going to the tryouts?” I said, “what tryouts?” They said, “Well there’s a scout
here from Chicago and Wrigley is forming a women’s team because a lot of the guys are
already signing up and going into the army and he is afraid he’ll have an empty ball park.
3:35 ” And I said, “tryout? You know it’s thirty two degrees out there and we got snow
flurries” and they said, “we’re going to tryout in a gym” and I said, “In a gym?” They
said, “Yeah, Burstyn Field House”, and I said, “Well, that’s near my home and that’ll be
ok”, so they picked me up and I had on a skirt and sweater and like in the movie—they
had rain and we had snow flurries so, our windows were protected, so I didn’t break any
and he hit us grounders and we played catch and batted and he picked three of us, but the
one girl was married and the other girl was taking care of her elderly parents, so I was the
only one that left from Flint. 4:24
Interviewer: “Did you leave right away after the tryouts?”
Ya, well, I left in May and they sent me a Pullman ticket and I had never been on a train,
I had never been out of Michigan. I didn’t know what the heck was going on. I thought
well, ok and the train was a Grand Trunk and I had the lower berth and it was bumpy
going on this train and when I got into Chicago it was just pouring rain, so they said what
to do, “get a cab and go to the hotel and we’ll reimburse you”, and when I got there and
got into the room I thought, “what am I doing here, I could play ball in Flint”, I was so
homesick I wanted to go home and they said, “wait a minute, wait a minute, who are you
rooming with?” I said, “I don’t know”, and they said—Johnny Gottselig, he was
Canadian and being I was only seventeen he would get me with women who were older
and kind of baby me. 5:45 that wasn’t really necessary because the next day the sun was
shinning and I was ready to go and everything was ok. Everything came out great
Interviewer: “The sun came out and everything looked better. Johnny Gottselig
was the scout who---?”
Johnny Gottselig was a Hockey player and wasn’t too well versed and in spite of it we
won the championship.
Interviewer: “He was your manager and he was the one who did the try out.”
We had chaperones and that was part of the deal because a lot of the women wouldn’t--my dad said, “no way was I going”, but my mother said, “she loves to play, let her go”.
6:22
Interviewer: “So it was your mother who –“
She was the best and she was my strongest supporter. My sister Emma would say, “why
doesn’t Sophie have to do the dishes?” My mother would say, “never mind, let Sophie
play”.
Interviewer: “Bless her heart.”
My mother was great. She was the best.
2
�Interviewer: “So you got to Chicago and then you?”
We had spring training at Wrigley Field and it got cut short because it was raining pretty
hard, so they thought they would send us to our respective home towns and get
acquainted there and maybe the weather would be better, so we were met by a contingent
of—I remember a little Rabbi that was in—they met us and we were housed with
different families. 7:15
Interviewer: “Which town did you go to?”
I went to the Thielands, they were—they had three boys and of course they told me how
to play ball and never take the first pitch and all that stuff.
Interviewer: “The first town that you went to and that you played for?”
Racine, I played with Racine all the time. I played from 1943 to 1950 in Racine and then
I went to Battle Creek for about a month.
Interviewer: “So they sent you off to Racine, you had a little bit of spring training,
but not a whole lot.”
We had spring training, but not too much because the weather was just as bad there. We
were only sixty miles from Chicago, so there wasn’t any improvement. 7:59 The people
were great and they first came out to see—out of curiosity to begin with and then when
they came out and saw that we could really play then they came out in droves and we did
real well. They had sixty-five hundred people at the playoffs. 8:22
Interviewer: “Wow, that’s a big crowd. Now when you had been playing back in
Flint, that was softball right?”
Yes, they made us steal bases and they changed the length of the bases and that and
Dottie, she could almost throw a side arm, which is acceptable.
Interviewer: “You started in 1943 at the beginning of the league.”
Yes.
Interviewer: “And it looked a lot like softball yet at the beginning.”
It wasn’t really softball and it wasn’t really baseball. It was a combination of the two and
it worked out beautifully. 9:02
Interviewer: “Except they permitted base stealing and that’s the strength of your
game. Let’s jump right in and talk about stealing basis.”
You know, even in the big leagues the pitchers have a little bit of—you know they might
open their shoulder a little bit or they might have their feet a little bit closer to first base.
3
�They always have a little bit of something that you can pick up on them and your first
thing is that the first step is the most important step and if you get that you’re on your
way and as I said, Ricky Henderson was a great base stealer, he was cocky as the devil,
but he was a good ball player and they would always compare me to him and it was silly
because he was a far better player than I was. 10:04
Interviewer: “You stole an awful lot of bases though, so you watch the pitcher and
you look for?”
They might open up a shoulder a little bit when they’re going to throw and they always
got a little something that you can pick up on and body language is very important and
you pick up on those things. Some of the pitchers, if they didn’t pay any attention to me,
I could steal their pants off because you know if you kept throwing at me and kept
throwing to first base you could tire me out, but if you didn’t pay attention I could really
go. 10:43
Interviewer: “And when you start your first step is it a crossover step?”
The first step is the most important step in stealing.
Interviewer: “Did you use like a crossover step? Left foot cross over and go?”
Yes, you know this league was just fantastic and nobody paid attention to it for the
longest time and then we had a reunion in Fort Wayne and all of a sudden Penny
Marshall saw that documentary. They had a documentary on PBS and she saw that and it
clicked in her head that it would make a great baseball movie and by golly it did and she
made tons of money on that movie and they still show it. 11:35 I still see it every now
and again.
Interviewer: “It’s very popular and it changed a lot of things. I want to focus on
your career now though. Base stealing gets you from first to second, but as they say,
you cannot steal first base. You were a leadoff hitter?”
Yes that was it—my job was primarily to get on base and if I would get on base our good
hitters would bring me in and they said, “Well, if Sophie gets on first, she’s on third”, so
that worked out pretty good.
Interviewer: “You would get on and immediately figure—“
You know, a lot of times of they didn’t pay attention to me on second base; I could steal
third at will. It’s easier to steal third than second. 12:26
Interviewer: “The pitcher has a harder time watching you.”
That’s right.
Interviewer: “There’s no baseman on the base to hold you close.”
That’s exactly right.
4
�Interviewer: “And off you go. Now, that’s a lot of running and sliding into those
bases all the time—“
I had strawberry upon strawberry and even today I get up sometimes in the morning and
this bothers me a little bit, but not bad.
Interviewer: “So you still have some of the residual effects.”
Right, right.
Interviewer: “A strawberry just rubs the skin raw.”
Yea and when it’s sore it leaks, but our chaperone was pretty sharp and she made a donut
affair and put it across the strawberry so it wouldn’t leak on my clothes because if it did it
would stick to you and you would have to pull that off and you’d be in agony. 13:29
She put that donut affair so it wouldn’t touch because it would leak.
Interviewer: “I got to ask you—you’re standing on first base and maybe you got a
walk, you walked quite a bit, but you could hit, you were a hitter too. Let’s say you
get to first base and you stole three bases last night and you got a strawberry that
won’t quit already, did it ever occur to you while standing on first, “well maybe I’ll
just stay here”?”
No, no never, never, we never quit. You could get strawberry upon strawberry and you
could go on the other side and you’d get another strawberry, but I’ll tell you these women
were far tougher than these guys are playing ball nowadays. 14:13 You know, I asked
somebody, “what is a spasm that some of these guy get? What do they get in their back
that they can’t play?” I still don’t know what they mean by a spasm.
Interviewer: “Did you miss many games when you were playing?”
Yea, I had a very bad sprained ankle and couldn’t play, but I was there yelling come on,
come on, come on.
Interviewer: “Most of the time you played every game.”
Yes, I played one hundred and twenty-five games and some of those guys that make
twenty-five million don’t even play a hundred and thirty games. 14:54
Interviewer: “You’re right, they have to rest every day.”
You know Al Kaline was one of the guys that said after they game him a hundred
thousand dollars, “I don’t deserve a hundred thousand dollars”. Now that’s my kind of a
guy.
Interviewer: “A lot of people in Michigan think he’s as good as it gets.”
5
�He was one of the best. I met Hal Newhouser in San Francisco at a card show and he
said, “Sophie you know I won twenty games and you know what kind of a raise they
game me?” I said, “no”, and he said, “five hundred dollars”, and I said, “God, if you
were playing today you would make twenty million a year.” 15:38 You can’t say
enough there.
Interviewer: “What about the pay you got? Do you remember what you got paid?”
We started out with fifty and the highest paid would be one hundred and twenty-five and
later on when I played in Battle Creek, they paid me three hundred and twenty-five a
week and then I got a bonus for being the most valuable player in 1946.
Interviewer: “What was the bonus?”
A thousand bucks.
Interviewer: “Did you send money home?” 16:12
Yes, always.
Interviewer: “Your family needed some help?”
Yes, they were rough times and I always sent money home.
Interviewer: “So you played right through the war years?”
Yes and you know when we traveled we didn’t have luxury with these guys and those
were war years and we often sat in the isle of a train on top of our suitcases and finally
they gave us one of the rickety buses and they couldn’t even find a bus like that for the
movie. And you now when we had to stop for some of the girls, a pit stop, the girls, if we
had shorts on, we had to put dresses or skirts on because we never could be seen in public
in shorts or slacks. 17:13 We always had a skirt and a dress to go into a restaurant or a
pit stop.
Interviewer: “Is it also true that you had to have lipstick on?”
Yes, you know the one thing we did put on one of our chaperones, because Johnny
Gottselig was always telling us what the hockey players did, so we said to this Canadian
chaperone, “do you have the key to the coaches box?” And she said, “well no” and we
said, “we can’t play until we get the key to the coaches box” and she said, “well where
can I get it?” and I said, “well you got to go to Johnny, you got to go to our manager and
get the key because we can’t start playing”. 18:00 She didn’t know anything about
baseball. “You don’t have any lipstick on” and we looked at her and said, “are you for
real?” That was one of the things we pulled on them.
Interviewer: “Did she ever find the key to the coaches box?”
No. Johnny looked at her like she was crazy and said, “Aw, they’re pulling your leg”.
6
�Interviewer: “You got to have fun doing this that’s for sure.”
We had a lot of fun. One thing about our league is we made wonderful friendships that
have lasted forever. You know we’ve known some of these girls for sixty years. 18:34
They’re all great.
Interviewer: “That first year, you stayed with a family? Were you the only one?”
I had a roommate and they had three boys in that family and naturally they gave us tips
and tell you this and tell you that and we would say, “you know, we have a manager and
we have to pay attention to the manager”. 19:03
Interviewer: “So you continue—you were seventeen years old when you started and
you continued to learn more and more about the game.”
Oh yes, of course I’ll tell you—these guys that are playing ball right now, I told one of
the girls—you know they have and E for errors, and I said, “they have an ME which
means mental errors, these guys they throw home when they should be throwing to
second base. The ball goes to the short stop, he’s on second and he runs to third and he
gets thrown out and that’s a mental mistake and they shouldn’t allow them to get away
with that stuff. 19:39 They better take them back to spring training school and teach
them all over again. Don Zimmer said, “you’d be surprised how many games are lost on
the bases”, and that’s very true.
Interviewer: “Bonehead base running.”
Right—dumb, dumb.
Interviewer: “You’re not a large person, were you a singles hitter, line drives?”
No, I could hit to all fields, whichever they pitch to ya. They always try to get me out on
the outside pitch, but I hit to all fields.
Interviewer: “You take that one to right?”
Yeah, sometimes I would try to push one to second to get on base. 20:24 I tried
everything.
Interviewer: “Did you bunt? Did you bunt to get on base?”
Yeah, once and a while. You always have to do something different.
Interviewer: “I saw in the record books you have home runs by your name. Were
those—“
7
�Yeah, the one thing—they made the big mistake was we didn’t have the snow fences like
you have in the—those home runs were inside the park home runs. Seven home runs
inside the park, that’s crazy. 20:52
Interviewer: “That’s a lot.”
It’s what we said—we should have had snow fences where they would be two thirty or
two fifty and where you could really hit a home run and jog around the bases.
Interviewer: “They didn’t do that.”
No, that was the one big mistake that they made
Interviewer: “Were there some women in the league who hit real home runs, over
the fence home runs though?”
The only ones that you could hit in the stands were Grand Rapids if you were a left
handed hitter, but the rest of it—they were all inside the park home runs, which is crazy.
21:29
Interviewer: “Fun to watch.”
They were running and they were trying to get the ball to get them out.
Interviewer: “You were obviously very fast. Did you win races as a youngster
running against boys?”
I ran races on the playgrounds, fifty-yard dash or the hundred-yard dash and that was fun.
Interviewer: “You ran faster than the boys?”
Yeah, you know I won the decathlon when I was a youngster and you had to have five
thousand points and I had four thousand six hundred and ninety one and I threw the
length of the field with a baseball and I got a thousand points for a baseball throw. 22:11
Interviewer: “That put you over the top.”
Well I had a—at that time, when I was young, I had a strong arm. When you’re young
you can do a lot of crazy things.
Interviewer: “And you think you can do even more.”
I don’t think I could do that now.
Interviewer: “Ok, you were an infielder?”
8
�Yeah, I played second base and in Michigan I played third and short and then I played the
outfield the first few days because Clara Schillace was our— one of the four women they
picked and she was out center fielder, but she was a school teacher and she could only
come in the week-end because she was still teaching school, so I played the outfield the
first few days and then one of the girls got hurt and I played second and she never got it
back 23:06
Interviewer: “when you started playing second base, at that time did you know how
to make the pivot play? You had to learn it.”
Yeah, I could make it because I played shortstop—it was easy.
Interviewer: “You knew what had to be done.”
I knew what had to be done, yes.
Interviewer: “But most of your career you played second base?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “I’ve always thought that one of the reasons you want a second
baseman with a strong arm for the double play?”
Yes, that first card show shows that—that was an action shot where I played. That was
actually throwing a double play ball.
Interviewer: “But you also have to go out and get the ball from the outfielders and
make some strong relay throws.” 23:54
Yeah, I played, I think, eight games and didn’t make an error.
Interviewer: “That’s good, so you’re an all around ball player. You get a lot of
recognition for your base stealing.”
I can’t say all those things because it makes me feel funny to say that.
Interviewer: “I’ll say them, because first of all, as I said, you’ve got to be a hitter
and you’ve got to have a good eye at least, that’s the key to being a leadoff hitter.”
24:27
You know, I can’t repeat that enough times to say how wonderful that league was for all
of us. Here we were kids of seventeen and now we’re in our eighties and we’re still
getting along and having a lot of fun with each other, which is fantastic.
Interviewer: “That’s great. Who was the toughest pitcher you faced?”
Annabelle Lee, she was a left-hander. She had a kind of special—you know, the rotation
of the ball. I don’t think she fanned me, but I didn’t hit as well against her as I did other
people. 25:14
Interviewer: “The ball moved a little?”
9
�Yeah, the movement in there and you know hitting is timing and she would throw my
timing off. She had a crazy slow pitch and then she would throw the fast and it’s timing,
everything is timing and she disrupted my timing.
Interviewer: “Now, I have a question about pitchers. Was there a pitcher that was
more difficult to steal against than other pitchers?”
Again it would be lefty because she had a good move into first base.
Interviewer: “Much harder, but you stole against about all of them?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “One year you stole two hundred and one bases.”
I just went nuts that year, I just had it going and I was like the energizer, you can’t quit. I
stole mostly because even when we were behind and I got on second, if we were two or
three runs behind you get a run in and before you know it you’re back in the ball game.
26:29 When they say you shouldn’t steal if you’re behind, that’s crazy, you steal
whenever you can because you can still score and you can get a run here and a run there
and peck away and before you know it you’re tied. You can steal whenever you get a
chance, I feel.
Interviewer: “But you don’t want to get thrown out.”
No, you gotta be sure you’re gonna make it if you’re behind, that’s for sure.
Interviewer: “And I should say that you stole two hundred and one bases and that
was out of two hundred and three attempts—all year long you got thrown out only
twice?” 27:08
Ya.
Interviewer: “You don’t happen to remember who threw you out or how you got
thrown out?”
Ya, Bonnie Baker threw me out once and I’m not sure about the other one. Bonnie Baker
was the one, and -------could have been the other; they were both all star catchers.
Interviewer: “That’s an incredible record, it really is.”
You know, I can’t believe that sometimes either. I can believe it when I wake up in the
morning sometimes.
Interviewer: “I can say it, that’s an incredible achievement. You played 1943, 44,
right up to 50?“
43,44,45,46,47,48 and 49, six all star games—teams.
10
�Interviewer: “While you were playing, the rules were changing. The bases were
further apart.”
That didn’t bother me. Well, you know it didn’t bother me, they said that they did it
purposely, but I didn’t know that that’s what they did to try to stop me from running. I
didn’t know that until I read it. I really didn’t know that. 28:31 Ignorance is bliss, right?
Interviewer: “You just kept running.”
I just kept running and I never knew that they did that. I read that on a card and I
thought, “I didn’t know they did that”.
Interviewer: “They also changed the rules for the pitcher so the pitcher could throw
more—slowly raised the pitchers--” 28:57
When Max Carey became out president, he was a baseball man, so he wanted baseball
and then they went to overhand and sidearm.
Interviewer: “Did that affect your—“
No
Interviewer: “didn’t affect your hitting really either?”
No, I liked baseball better; you got more time to look at the ball. With fast pitch they’re
right on ya and you gotta be ready. Everything is timing and you gotta be a pretty fast
swinger with the softball. 29:28
Interviewer: “Right, the swing is different for baseball.”
You know these guys are doing this—why are they monkeying around with their bat
doing this and that—just wait and you’re right there ready.
Interviewer: “Get set and be ready.”
Just be ready every time.
Interviewer: “Pretty simple. Are there things a leadoff hitter has to do
differently?” 30:00
Well, you gotta make sure you get on base so the other people can bring you in. The
main purpose of your job is to get on base.
Interviewer: “Do you take more pitches?”
You take more pitches and usually I always took the first pitch. One of the boys would
say, “you always take the first pitch”, and I said, “my job is to get on first base”, and I’d
never seen the pitcher before and I like to see what they’re throwing.
11
�Interviewer: “And you still got two more strikes?”
Right.
Interviewer: “As they say and particularly for you, “a walk is as good as a hit”, it’s
as good as a triple.”
Better than that sometimes. 30:39
Interviewer: “Those years you were playing, did you get into the playoffs, into the
championship?”
Yeah, my first year we won the championship in 1943 and we won the championship in
1946 when we played fourteen innings against Rockford and we won 1-0 as a
consequence of—I got a base hit and stole second and tried to steal third, because they hit
the ball to right field, I scored with a terrific slide. It was coming from right field and I
was coming from third and I had a slide away from the tag. A very close play and that
was the ball game. 31:25
Interviewer: “that had to be—one to nothing, fourteen innings, who were the
pitchers?”
We had sixty-five hundred people at that game. Carolyn Morris was pitching the no
hitter for nine innings and when somebody got a hit he took her out. We always thought,
“good, get her out of there”, and then he put this Mildred Deegan in and I said, “this
game is ours” when he put her in and we did, we beat her.
Interviewer: “You could hit her or get on base?”
I got on base and that was the ball game.
Interviewer: “You stole second, it’s almost—it’s not a hit and run if you’re on
second.”
They thought it was a hit and run, but it wasn’t. 32:07 I started to steal third and she
hit—I told her to take one pitch for me, that’s all and I never told them before, but when
I tip my cap give me that pitch and I’ll get to second. I never did that before. They could
hit and do anything you wanna do and I would go when I felt it was time to go. 32:34
Interviewer: “201 out of 203, you had to be pretty confident you were going to
make it.”
Yeah, yeah, I was just a kid and when you’re a kid you don’t have any nerves.
Interviewer: “Any other games? I know another game I want to ask you about.
You once stole seven bases in one game.”
I don’t remember that one.
12
�Interviewer: “Well, the book says you did. They said that was the record for the
league and that’s incredible.”
Well you know, if you got the ability to do it, you do it.” 33:19
Interviewer: “It makes sense to me. Now, you played until 1950—you didn’t play
in 1951?”
I played until 1950 and then I went to the Chicago league and then Battle Creek got a
team, so they scouted me and then I went to Battle Creek to play.
Interviewer: “So that’s where you were in 1951, you left the league.”
In 1952 I went to Battle Creek.
Interviewer: “Why did you leave the league in 1951 to go to Chicago?”
Because we lost our franchise in Racine and we were done. We started losing fans and
we lost our franchise, so a guy came in from Chicago and he scouted Joanne Winter and
me, so we went to Chicago. 34:08
Interviewer: “By that time you’d been playing and stealing a hundred or two
hundred bases a season for seven years. Did your legs start to bother you? You had
to be taking a beating.”
Well, I had the hip problem there for a little while, but it was ok.
Interviewer: “So you were still a base stealer right up to the end, came back to your
last year?”
I came back to Battle Creek and my last game was in 1955 in Arizona and then I went
back to softball. 34:41
Interviewer: “That was it for baseball?”
Yea, that was the last year that I played.
Interviewer: “In Battle Creek, were you injured when you played there that last
year?”
No, I left because—I don’t want to get into that.
Interviewer: “Not even with the camera not running?”
No, there was a reason why I left and I don’t want to go into it.
Interviewer: “Ok, that’s your privilege. What happened after baseball?”
After baseball—I had been working for this fella when I was in Racine and then he asked
me if I had any money and I said, “a few bucks”, and then I went into business with him.
35:36
13
�Interviewer: “What kind of business?”
We made parts for aeronautical, automotive and electrical parts and so I did—a small
business like fifteen or twenty people you wear many hats. I did the payroll and did the
purchasing, inspection and billing, whatever there was to do, we did. I was there from
1952 until 1972 and then I came into Phoenix, to Scottsdale. 36:17
Interviewer: “You retired. Did you cash out of the business?”
Yes
Interviewer: “What was the mans name?”
The name of our business was Apex Machine Products, Inc., Racine, WI. My business
partner was Paul Douglas and he was ninety-one years old and he was my best pal. He
was a very good friend and my best friend. 36:44
Interviewer: “A good partnership?”
A great partnership.
Interviewer: “That’s good, that’s good. You went back to softball after baseball.”
Ya, well I played all sports, I played basketball and I bowled and I play golf.
Interviewer: “How long did you continue playing ball of one sort or another?”
I played until 1955. From 1943 until 1955.
Interviewer: “Ok, and softball after that?”
No, I was done in 1955, which was the last softball game I played in Phoenix. 37:21
Interviewer: “Did you miss it?”
Of course, I miss everything.
Interviewer: “ I understand that. Now, did people who knew you later know that
you had been a—“
You know, they had a write up in the Arizona paper about me playing ball and it was on
the front page of the Arizona Republic and the guy across the street ran over and said,
“God, I didn’t know you played ball”, like I was going to advertise it. Nobody knew that
we were ball players. It was over really until the movie came out and after that things
went crazy and everybody wanted our ball playing days and all that. The movie really
brought a lot of publicity to all of us. 38:21
Interviewer: “Did you like the movie?”
Yeah, I liked it, but a lot of the stuff wasn’t true. No manager would ever come in and
urinate and we never kissed sailors or threw at the fans, we never did that, but the
14
�telegram about somebody being killed that was true. There was a lot of it that was true.
Hollywood, they embellish everything. 38:54
Interviewer: “Once the movies out, fans rediscover you.”
Ya, more or less we all rediscovered.
Interviewer: “Do you get invitations to speak to groups?”
I still get baseball cards that people want signed and they send me blank cards. We never
sign blank cards. They had the Ted Williams card and I get a lot of those. Then they
send me a 9x12 pictures and we sign those. I get two or three a week for signatures and
autograph. 39:33
Interviewer: “I don’t understand the Ted Williams card, what is that?”
Did I bring my purse? Ted Williams made cards of ten of us and they told me to bring
some cards, so this is it.
Interviewer: “Ted Williams put this card together? There you are and your
record.”
That’s where I read about them extending the bases to try to stop me from running. You
might as well cut my legs off. 40:22
Interviewer: “That would finally stop you, although I’m not sure you wouldn’t
learn how to run on your hands and keep running anyway. That’s a nice card and
maybe we can get a shot of that before we’re through. Now people look at the
women’s league—“
You know it’s surprising, we had—the room was full of people and I thought, “Where
did they come from?” Tim must have put something in the paper about having
autographs because there’s no sidewalk out there. Where did they come from?
Interviewer: “They heard about it.”
Yeah, they came and boy there was a ton of people that came in there. I think it’s
wonderful because they—I get a letter from a few guys that say, “I didn’t know your
league was out there. I wish I could have seen you play ball”, and these are from men. I
wish you could too, but it’s too late. 41:30
Interviewer: “Do you hear from young girls?”
Yes, they’re writing a thesis or something and I send them clippings from the paper and
they appreciate that.
Interviewer: “Do you speak to groups?”
15
�Yes. I don’t do it any more, but we use to go to church things and golf, at the golf
courses and different places. They really enjoyed the women, playing ball, they really
did. 42:19
Interviewer: “Have you ever thought of yourself as a pioneer?”
Yeah, I told Dottie White, I said, “You know, you don’t ever talk about the girls that
were here from the first four teams. We really were the pioneers and you came after us”,
so when we had a reunion they had the girls there from 1943 and 1944. I said, “if it
wasn’t for the girls in 1943 and 1944, 1943, actually the first four teams, if it wasn’t for
their ability and deportment, you wouldn’t be here today”. 42:55 We actually paved the
way for them.
Interviewer: “You were the true pioneers.”
1943 teams were the real pioneers.
Interviewer: “Are you a feminist?”
Yes, aren’t you?
Interviewer: “Absolutely.”
The women never get the breaks that the men do. Look at golf, the men if they win a
tournament they get a million dollars and when a woman wins it, she’s lucky if she gets
three fifty. To disparage a girl, that’s awful. I give Billie Jean credit when she said,
”we’re not playing unless we get the same amount as men do at Wimbledon”, and by
god they get the same amount as the men do. 43:49 Do you think that’s ever going to
happen in golf? No way.
Interviewer: “You’re right.”
It’s not fair; they play just as hard and work just as hard as those guys do.
Interviewer: “And you took the abuse physically to play, just like the men did.”
You know they get the money and if they don’t get paid, they don’t play. We played
when we were hurt. 44:20
Interviewer: “Would you have played for free?”
Yes, we all would have played for free. Just to be out there playing in front of the public.
When we played amateur it was free. We had our own glove and we didn’t get paid.
Interviewer: “It’s about the game.”
That’s it, it’s about the game, we really loved the game, there’s no kidding about that.
Interviewer: “I jumped over it, but Jim reminded me and I need to ask you just a
16
�little bit about spring training before the season started. You went to Cuba and
played there—lets talk about how you got ready for the season.” 45:14
Well, we went to Wrigley field for spring training and they hit grounders and we batted,
you know regular spring training like the men have. You played catch and you hit
grounders and fly balls to the outfielders and the pitchers—we got in shape running and
doing exercises. We had great spring training.
Interviewer: “While you were playing they went to different places for spring
training including one year in Cuba.”
Ya, Max Carey instigated that because he was from Florida, so in 1947 we went to Cuba
and had spring training there and they went wild over the women. We had twenty-five
thousand people and the Dodgers were playing and they couldn’t figure out why they
didn’t have all the people, but they said, “baseball feminine, they’re over there watching
the women” and we had to be escorted to the ball park because those crazy—they love
blonds, man they love blonds and we had to have the security people escort us to the ball
park because they would steal your glove or anything. In fact when we were in South
America and it was the time when Simalsa was---and his son—Dotty Schroeder was a
good looking blond with pig tails and he said to her, “anything I can do to you let me
know”. He meant “for you” and we razzed her and said, “hey Dottie anything we can do
to you?” Anytime she got up to bat we really razzed the daylights out of her. That was
funny. 47:12
Interviewer: “That’s a good story. Any questions from back here? You went to the
Cooperstown ceremony?”
Yes, but I didn’t go when they had the statue because it was a bad time for me. I did go
when they had the first one, but not when they had the statue.
Interviewer: “How do you feel about being in Cooperstown?”
Wonderful, you know first they were just going to show us where people wrote them a lot
of letters that the women deserved to be in Cooperstown, so all our names are on a plaque
and that’s going to be there forever, so that’s wonderful and we got a little recognition
anyway. 48:05
Interviewer: “And now there’s an exhibit that talks about the league.”
And we got the statue, so that makes it extra special.
Interviewer: “So there will be a separate Hall of Fame?”
Well, I think some of the girls deserve an individual, but for all of us it’s great. I think
it’s ok for all of us to be in there. It’s wonderful. 48:23
Interviewer: “Well deserved and I thank you very much.
17
�18
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Moving Image
Text
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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RHC-58_SKurys
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Kurys, Sophie (Interview transcript and video), 2009
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Kurys, Sophie
Description
An account of the resource
Sophie Kurys was born on May 14, 1925 in Flint, Michigan. Early on in childhood she played baseball with the neighborhood kids and then started out in city leagues playing organized baseball at thirteen until she turned seventeen when she tried out to play professionally. She played for the Racine Belles from 1943 to 1950; played for a Chicago league from 1950 to 1951, and then Battle Creek Belles in 1952 until 1955 and left for reasons unsaid. During her long career, she predominantly played second base but switched to various positions when she was with the Battle Creek Belles. For the Battle Creek Belles she played third base, shortstop, and outfield. Kurys set many records. Among the most notable highlights were setting the league record for stealing 201 bases in 1946 and hitting seven home runs in 1950.
Contributor
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Olsen, Gordon (Interviewer)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Women
Language
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2009-09-25
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/82be56c12f2ff214c99e365924dbd6cf.mp4
2b54ebc2f7edf90455e33a5a90f72a78
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3b3dfd3a41d2ec800e073fd3a5ad0f2e.pdf
9c3dc36a9e0f9fb6284809dcac80dd25
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
HELEN LaCAMERA
Women in Baseball
Born: September 30, 1931, Quincy, Massachusetts
Resides: Edgewater, Florida
Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 5, 2010,
Detroit, MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, February 21, 2011
Interviewer: “Helen, can you start by giving us a little background on yourself. To
begin with, where and when were you born?”
I was born September 30, 1931 in Quincy, Massachusetts.
Interviewer: “What did your family do for a living at that time?”
My father was an auto mechanic and my mother was a sty at home mom.
Interviewer: “Was your father able to make enough money through the thirties
that you could get by all right?”
Yes, we didn’t know any better, that it was the end of the depression, so we did fine.
Interviewer: “Did you live in the same place while you were growing up or did you
move around?”
We moved around, but all in the city of Quincy.
Interviewer: “What kind of education did you have?”
I just completed high school.
Interviewer: “When did you start getting involved in sports?”
From my eighth grade gym teacher, Mary Pratt, I had her in Junior high, as they called it
then, and she was the one that got me started in playing in the park league and CYO
softball and basketball and then she was instrumental in getting me a tryout to go to the
league. 1:15
1
�Interviewer: “Ok, now had she already played in the league before she was a
teacher or was she doing them both at the same time or how did that work?”
Basically, she was doing both. One year she stopped and she came out to play, but she
went back to teaching, so she’s been teaching for forty-eight years one way or another.
Interviewer: “You actually got a chance then to play organized sports, to a degree,
not just pick-up games out in the street and that kind of thing?”
Through her, yes
Interviewer: “Now, did you just kind of play with the kids in the neighborhood and
things too?”
Pick-up with my brother, and I would just kind of tag along with him and if they needed
an extra player, I was it, whether it was tag football or baseball or whatever, so that’s how
I got the interest in sports. 2:10
Interviewer: “What position did you play?”
Third base and shortstop in softball, but Dotty Schroeder was the shortstop at Fort Wayne
and nobody was going to replace her.
Interviewer: “You had a good arm then, could you throw?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Were you a good hitter?”
A good hitter in softball, not good in baseball
Interviewer: “Tell me a little bit more about the leagues you were playing with
before you got into the All Americans. The CYO, what was that?”
Those were the church leagues around the city of Boston and then the park league played
and then we played in the tournaments through the northeast and played against the
2
�Raybesto’s in Connecticut and went out to Pittsfield, Mass and played against the
different teams in Worcester for tournaments, so you got a little more experience that
way. Saw Bertha Reagan and she really caught your attention pitching. 3:21 She was a
thirty nine year old grandmother at the time and you would just stick your bat out and
hope that she’d hit it.
Interviewer: “When you went and played some of these games in the tournament,
did you get much of an audience or following?”
They were fairly good, you know a couple hundred or three hundred people depending on
where it was held. We had a field in Quincy that every Friday night we played and we
drew a good crowd there. 3:55
Interviewer: “How much did you know about the All American league before you
tried out for it?”
Nothing, not a thing, and Ms. Pratt never talked about it like most don’t, unless she said,
“we’re going to take you to a tryout”.
Interviewer: “So that was just kind of out of the blue?”
Right
Interviewer: “Even though she’s coaching softball and doing all this kind of stuff,
and she has this kind of professional experience, she wasn’t using that or telling you
about it at that time?”
No, but she taught us—if you didn’t have the basics, you learned the basics the right way,
how to play the sport, truly.
Interviewer: “What was the tryout process? Could you do that in Boston or did
you have to go somewhere else?” 4:52
3
�The outskirts of Boston, and a scout came and there were three of us girls from our team
that got to tryout. Jean Buckley was one of them. She came out and she was with
Kenosha and the other girl was still in high school, so she didn’t choose to go. Mary
Dailey, I believe, was in that tryout, and Marie Kelley, maybe.
Interviewer: “About how many altogether were trying out do you think?”
I really don’t know there—once we got through with that and they said, “you can go to
South Bend”, and we went there and there were four hundred girls trying out and of the
four hundred, forty of us were chosen, and then five to each team that for whatever they
needed, pitchers or infielders and that’s how we were selected.
Interviewer: “So, the league was doing a kind of tryout for the whole league than?”
Right 5:54
Interviewer: “How did you get out to South Bend?”
They provided us with a train from South Boston you know, to South Bend.
Interviewer: “Did you go out by yourself?”
No, I went with Jean Buckley and probably Mary Dailey, I can’t remember at the time,
but there were probably six of us from that area you know.
Interviewer: “But just people who were trying out, you didn’t have other people
along?”
No
Interviewer: “Had you ever taken a long train trip?”
No
Interviewer: “So, what was that like?”
4
�An experience, I said, “I thought if you went fifty miles from home that was a big trip,
and if you ever got to go to New York City, well, you thought you were on the other side
of the earth”, but they met us at the train station and they treated us really well.
Interviewer: “What was the tryout process once you got to South Bend?”
Well, I think it was April, and it was cold, so the put the four hundred of us in an armory
and you just threw the ball back and forth and they eliminated two hundred people the
first day, and then they divided it by infielders, outfielders, so you did your fielding for
the infield and throwing for outfielders and that’s how they got to sort of eliminate
everybody you know. 7:19
Interviewer: “Did they also have you hit?”
I don’t remember ever hitting. I don’t know if outfielders did, but infielders didn’t. After
that we got on a bus and went to Cape Girardeau, Missouri, and we were from five thirty
in the morning until twelve thirty at night on the bus.
Interviewer: “What year was this that you were ding this?”
1950
Interviewer: “They had their spring training in different places in different years,
so we kind of put that in sequence. What kind of facility did they have there?”
A rainy one, and it rained for three days and it was like mud, but they had a hotel and
there were probably two or three to a room and they provided breakfast and dinner
everyday for you, so basically you had two a day when you were practicing. 8:18
Interviewer: “About how long did that time down there last?”
5
�I’d say three weeks and the Racine Belles were with us, so then we started barnstorming
coming up—Indianapolis, playing games while we came north until we got to our home
city.
Interviewer: “As you were going along and doing the barnstorming games, was that
getting much response from the locals? Did people come out to see you?”
Yes, but it was cold and I give them credit. It was freezing and I got a sore arm out of
that one, but other than that, the people, they were welcoming to us all the time. 9:09
Interviewer: “Your destination was?”
Fort Wayne, Indiana
Interviewer: “So, you’re with the fort Wayne Daisies. Who were the stars on that
team?”
I would say, Dottie Schroeder, I mean, that was the main one, Dottie Collins was a
pitcher, Maxine Kline was another great pitcher, and Vivian Kellogg was a first baseman,
Evie Wawryshyn, second base and they gave me third.
Interviewer: “How many rookies were on the team? Did they have five?”
I think the five
Interviewer: “Do you remember your first game?” 10:00
I do, it was Memorial Day weekend and they called you up and lined you up on the third
base line and they said my name and I said, “I made it, I belong”, and it was one of the
nicest things that has happened.
Interviewer: “Do you remember how you did in that game?”
I probably walked, and stole a base. I don’t think I got a hit.
6
�Interviewer: “What made it harder to hit since this kind of evolved from the kind of
softball you were playing?”
I wasn’t used to curve balls and sliders and all of that you know, so I mean, I was fairly
good in softball but, “A good field, no hit” that’s me.
Interviewer: “At this stage, were they pitching overhand yet?”
Overhand 10:59
Interviewer: “Overhand, all right, and the softball you had done, was that
underhand fast pitch?”
Yes
Interviewer: “You have to get used to the delivery and then they mix up the
pitches.”
Right
Interviewer: “That’s not really fair.”
I’m looking for a lot of walks.
Interviewer: “How did your team do that year?”
We went to, they called them the finals, against the Rockford Peaches, and we went to
seven games and we lost in the seventh game.
Interviewer: “Over the course of that season, are there particular games or things
that happened in individual games that kind of stand out in your mind and come
back to you a lot?”
No, it was just the whole experience of—even when I had to sit down when Betty Foss
came, it was just exciting to be there and see, which I thought, was the best brand of ball
going at the time. I had never seen so many good players all in one place. 12:00
7
�Interviewer: “You said you had to sit down when Betty Foss came, can you explain
that?”
Well, she came from Cape Girardeau, Missouri and she was five nine or five ten, she
batted left and I think that probably her batting average was like four twenty five, so I
said if mine was one thirty one, I could see why I sat down, but when someone got hurt,
like Evie Wawryshyn, I would go in and play second base and in the late innings I would
play defense for Betty Foss. She was an adequate fielder, but she was a better hitter than
fielder.
Interviewer: “Now, do you think that the fundamentals that you learned back home
in Quincy helped you there?”
Oh, definitely yes, I learned the basics and I learned to think—if the ball came at me,
what would I do? Wait for the ball to come and then say, “What am I going to do?” And
that was from my coach, she did a wonderful job. 13:04
Interviewer: “That paid off for you. Now, in 1950, where was the league in terms of
all of its rules and regulations and stuff that the players had to abide by?”
Still you had to wear skirts and you weren’t allowed to smoke in public or anything like
that, and to behave like a lady because you represented the league.
Interviewer: “When you got to South Bend did they give you etiquette training that
year?”
No, I think that was more in 1943, 44 and 45 when they learned from Helena Rubenstein,
but it was still in effect, that you behaved.
Interviewer: “And then you had a chaperone for your team? Who was your
chaperone that year?” 13:57
8
�Doris Tetzlaff
Interviewer: “Tell me a little bit about her.”
She did everything from doing your uniforms to make sure they were the right fit and
telling you not to fraternize, but everybody did, but she just did everything. If you had a
strawberry she fixed it and she was a “jack of all trades”, and an assistant to the manager.
Interviewer: “What could you actually do for a strawberry at that point?”
She put something on it and you just suffered through it until it healed. You learned how
to slide better, and we use to go to the lake and practice in the sand, learning how to slide
so it wouldn’t hurt.
Interviewer: “Where did you live while you were playing there? Did you stay in
someone’s home?” 14:52
Yes, there were two girls to a home as a rule and you paid them five dollars a week to
live there and then when you went on the road you stayed in a hotel and they gave you
three dollars a day meal money, and as I say, we traveled by bus at night to get there after
a game and I couldn’t say enough about it, it was just wonderful.
Interviewer: “What were they paying you at that point?”
I was paid fifty-five dollars a week as a rookie. I said that if I went back to work—I
wasn’t making that when I went out to work, so I would have played for nothing, they
didn’t know it, but I think most of the girls would have. They just loved playing and
being there.
Interviewer: “What was fan support like in Fort Wayne?”
Great, I was “Boston Blackie” at the time, “Park your car in the Harvard Yard”, they’d
call from the stands you know, so we had good rapport with the fans. 15:57
9
�Interviewer: “Did you have a sense as to how many people would come to a game
on a good day?”
I would say anywhere from nine hundred to maybe on a good day fifteen hundred, I don’t
know, and maybe in the earlier years they drew more, but like I say, in 1950 I thought
that was great because I had never played before that many people at all, so I thought
they were a good crowd.
Interviewer: “Of the other towns that you played in, were there any that you
particularly liked to go to or didn’t like to go to or were they pretty much all the
same?”
No, they were pretty much—I enjoyed every town for reasons, but they were all good and
the fans were great to you, so I didn’t really have a favorite, just that you were seeing
some other part of the country, which was nice. 16:57
Interviewer: “Now, the people in Fort Wayne, did they use the players at events or
for promotions or other thing? Did you get involved in the community in any way?”
Not really, the president was Van Ohman who owned the hotel there, so you didn’t really
have any, till the last when we were leaving he gave us a banquet at the end, but we
didn’t do any special events that I remember.
Interviewer: “How long then did you actually play in the league?”
Just that one-year
Interviewer: “Why did you stop playing after one year?”
I went home and my parents sold the home and I went to Florida. I didn’t want to stay
there, so I went home to my girlfriend’s and her parents. 18:00 I went for a weekend
and I stayed with them five years until I got married. Why I didn’t go back is, I had met
10
�my future husband. I got the contract to back, but I said it was a tradeoff really, so I had
two wonderful children and two grandchildren, so I had the best of both worlds, I think.
Interviewer: “So, you weren’t really looking to make playing ball a career for
yourself?”
Well, I didn’t know, I didn’t think so because until you got to South Bend you didn’t
know if you were good enough to play, so I was, more or less, taking it one day at a time,
one year at a time and I would have loved to have gone back, but somebody got in the
way. 18:53
Interviewer: “Did you try to follow the league after that or did that now work if you
were on the east coast?”
After I got through playing there, I went back to Mary Pratt and played softball again.
Even when I got married I was still playing and until I had my first child and I said, “I
guess that’s it”.
Interviewer: “So you are able to continue on some level and just because you leave
the league it doesn’t stop all that?”
Oh no, I said, “It’s the love of the game, whether it’s baseball or softball”. It just draws
you back to it one way or another.
Interviewer: “Did you have a professional career of some kind after that? Did you
go to work again or did you just raise your family?”
No, I worked in an office until after I got married and I was expecting my first child and
at that time, when you were expecting, you stayed home and took care of your children.
19:56 I didn’t go back to work until—my husband was a barber and the barber business
went downhill in the seventies, so I went back to work, but I love to drive always, so I
11
�said, “well, if I go to an office again, It’ll just put the clothes on my back”, so I became a
school bus driver. I had my summers off and when my kids were off, I was off at the
same time, so it was good.
Interviewer: “At the time you were playing, did you have any sense that you were
doing something significant or pioneering or anything like that?”
Had no idea and you went home and like most, you didn’t talk about it until the movie
came out. I said, “my goodness, that was something wonderful”, I thought, that you got
acknowledged and even my son said, and blames my daughter, “You haven’t been to
Cooperstown?” 21:00 He’d get so mad at her and he said, “Your mother’s in
Cooperstown and you haven’t even gone to see it”. I can’t get over the enthusiasm of the
people you know, they come and we sign autographs and they wait so patiently in line
and they say, “thank you and excuse me, I don’t mean to bother you”. They don’t want
to interrupt what you’re doing and I said, “It’s just wonderful and I say thank you to
them, because if it wasn’t for them we wouldn’t have been where we are now”, I believe
that.
Interviewer: “As things changed for women in sports, the Title IX developments in
the seventies and eighties and so forth, were you following that or paying much
attention to it?”
Yeah, I was, we, Mary Pratt and I, say we were born too soon, but I said I think it’s
wonderful that girls now can get a scholarship to play softball or golf or to swim, I said it
was a long time in coming. 22:05 I don’t know if there’s still parody, but it’s getting
there and it’s ten thousand times better than when we started.
12
�Interviewer: “I think that has something to do with why people appreciate what is
was that you did. I mean you did not have all these structures in place to help you
and people didn’t think that women actually went into playing baseball at all. Now,
for you personally, what do you think the overall effect of that experience was on
you, getting to play professional ball for a year?” 22:38
I just think it made me a better person, really. You learned to live with everybody, I
don’t mean that it’s hard to live with anybody, but I said, to have Cubans like Lefty
Alvarez, and different cultures and you get along and you were a team, you weren’t just
individual. When they said they would go into Cooperstown as a team rather than
individual players, I think that’s the way, because the song says it all you know, “All for
one and One for All”, and if you didn’t have that I don’t think you would have the
uniqueness of the league truly. 23:22
Interviewer: “It’s really a remarkable experience and I would like to thank you for
coming in and sharing some of that with us today.”
Thank you
13
�14
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-58
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-02
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-58_HLaCamera
Title
A name given to the resource
LaCamera, Helen (Interview transcript and video), 2010
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
LaCamera, Helen
Description
An account of the resource
Helen La Camera was born in Quincy, Massachusetts in 1931. She grew up playing sports with neighborhood kids, and started playing organized softball in eighth grade. Her coach, Mary Pratt, had played in the AAGPBL, and arranged for her to try out in 1950. She was invited to spring training following the tryouts, and became the third baseman for the Fort Wayne Daisies. She played for one season, and then returned home, got married, and continued to play softball for several years.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Baseball players--Indiana
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-08-05
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/81a0480cc77717a3359e57c2844ecb8e.mp4
12b61f99188ef3d9178abfc7e4efcd9e
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b3144a3e39a6acecd54dbe35543fff1e.pdf
f58fcb3f0fc5c27fe3e58abd78f3e892
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
NOELLA LeDUC
Women in Baseball
Born: December 23, 1933
Resides:
Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 5, 2010, Detroit,
MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, May 19, 2011
Interviewer: “If we could begin with your full name and where and when you were
born?”
Noella LeDuc, Graniteville, Massachusetts, date of birth, 12-23-1933.
Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like? Where did you grow-up and
your family?”
Well, it was a small town and I played baseball all of the time, most of the time. I had a
ballpark across the street from my house and if I wasn‟t there the boys came over and got
me. We would pick sides and play all morning and in the afternoon we would go
swimming, come home and after supper, go play ball again and then go home and go to
bed. 33:35 My mother and father always knew where to find me—at the ball field.
Interviewer: “What was your early schooling like? How was school?”
School was good and I went as far as the freshman year in high school because I heard
about the girl‟s baseball. My freshman year I had come home from school and I had seen
the boys playing across the street from my house and I wondered why they were playing
there because they had their own field, our field was better though, so I went in the house
and changed my clothes and ran over there again, to the field, and the boys came up and
asked if I would hit some fly balls to them to get ready for the game. I said, “sure”, and I
did that for about ten minutes and went back and sat on the bench. This man came up to
1
�me and asked me if I would like to play professional baseball and I said, “yeah, I‟m
trying to because I saw it in a magazine”, and he said, “well, there‟s a girl eight miles
from here that plays”, and he gave me her name and address and everything, which is
Rita Briggs. 34:37 He said, “she‟s gone right now, she left for spring training and she‟ll
be home in October. I‟ll give you her address and you can go up and see her in October”.
I did that and the first time I went up there she wasn‟t home yet, she was a little bit late
coming home. I went up the following week and she was there, and when I got there they
were giving her a party, so she said, “I‟ll come and see you tomorrow, give me your
address”, and she did, she came to see me the next day, which was a Sunday. She tried
me out, throwing the ball, hitting and all that stuff and she said, “you‟ll make it”, so that‟s
how I did.
Interviewer: “How old were you?”
I was seventeen when I started, yeah.
Interviewer: “I‟m kind of curious because the man that told you to go and talk to
her, was he a scout?”
No, he worked with my mother in the mill. My mother worked in a mill and he worked
with my mother. He introduced himself because I didn‟t know him. He said, “I know
your mother because I work with her”, and all that stuff and then he told me about Rita
and gave me her address and everything. 35:38 He had seen her play at the high school
where she lived. She was on the boy‟s team at the school.
Interviewer: “You said you saw the notice in a magazine?”
Yeah, it was in the newspaper, newspaper magazine. Yeah, Dottie Schroeder was right
on the cover and I said to my dad, “I‟m going to beat her dad”, and I did at times.
2
�Interviewer: “Oh my gosh, but we‟ll check with her on that one right?”
Well, she is dead she‟s dead. She was a good ball player, very good.
Interviewer: “So you met the woman who was already playing and she told you
how to contact the league? Is that right?”
No, she gave me a tryout when she came home and she said, “you won‟t have any trouble
making it, and come spring training you‟ll go out with me and this other girl from Rhode
Island”, and I went out with them and they tried me out again over there and they said,
“you got it”. 36:37
Interviewer: “Well, how did you get there?”
We drove out.
Interviewer: “So somebody had a car?”
Yeah, Rita Briggs, she had a car.
Interviewer: “Your parents were ok with this?”
Yeah, well, my grandfather was a priest, so when he heard I was going to play ball he
went and checked it out and he said, “It‟s ok, she‟ll be all right”, because of the rules we
had and everything you know. He said, “she‟ll be ok”.
Interviewer: “I want you to go back to that first day of tryouts. You said you drove
out there in a car, were you excited about this?”
Oh yeah, I was a little nervous too because it was my first time being away from home
without my parents, so I was a little nervous, but they encouraged me a bit, and Marilyn
Jones, they said, “don‟t worry you‟ll make it”.
Interviewer: “Take us back, what was it like to show up there? Were there a lot of
girls out there playing?” 37:32
3
�No, first of all we went to the office and signed up and all this and that. They told me
how much money I would make and all that baloney you know, and the next day we had
to go to the clubhouse at the ballpark and get our uniforms and start practicing and all
that, and Johnny Rawlings was my manager, and a good man, good man.
Interviewer: “So, this was 1951?”
1951, yes
Interviewer: “Now, by that time, was the league throwing overhand?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Did you have any experience playing overhand baseball?”
Yeah, because I was with the boys all the time, I didn‟t have a problem with that, and the
ball was a little bit bigger when I went in, just a little bit bigger than a regular baseball.
In 1954 they went back to the size of a regular baseball and that was nice because I could
get my hand on it good you know, but I didn‟t have any trouble with the ball they had, it
was only slightly bigger you know.” 38:32
Interviewer: “So, what was the first season like? You‟re a rookie, right?”
Yes I was a rookie, yeah, yeah, and another girl was young too just like me, seventeen
and we got going in spring training and all that and then we got into the season, I was
playing, I got a base hit and I got down to second base on this gals base hit and then
another one came up and I had to—excuse me, that was wrong—they tried to pick me off
at second base, they figured she‟s a rookie and she isn‟t going to—I was ready, so she
made a bad throw and I made a beeline for third base and as I was running I dislocated
my elbow and Johnny gives me the sign to slide, so I slide, I‟m a little bit too close to the
4
�bag, but I said, “I got to do what he says”, so I injured the ligaments in my ankle, so I was
out for a little while on that, and I had to go to the doctors. 39:32
Interviewer: “The first season, you didn‟t sit on the bench? You were actually
playing?”
Yeah
Interviewer: “Wow, and what position?”
I was playing in the outfield, left field or right field.
Interviewer: “That first season, you of course played for what team?”
The Peoria Red Wings
Interviewer: “What did the uniform look like?”
It was white with a little red on it, the home uniform and the road uniform, I believe, was
red, and we had a red hat.
Interviewer: “How did you like the uniform?”
Well, I would rather of had pants because when you scratch up your legs and I tore my
knees open twice you know you—especially in South Bend, that was terrible. I had to
slide home and I scraped this whole knee out and blood was pouring out, so they cleared
the bench so I could sit and the chaperone would clean it up. Then they poured the
methiolate on it and you know how that feels, whewee and a couple of the girls were
blowing on it so it wouldn‟t sting so much. 40:36 They taped me up and I went out in
the field again. I got that all healed up and the first thing you know I got this leg.
Interviewer: “What was it like playing—now you played with the boys when you
were very young, you played through most of your younger years and now you‟re
5
�playing in professional baseball. How was that? Did you feel like you were good
enough? Did you feel like you were still a rookie? How did you feel?”
Well, I felt—I was pretty proud to get there and I felt good about it. I was nervous at
times because when you‟re young, seventeen, you‟re going to be nervous, but eventually
that went away and I just settled right down and went with it. Johnny, he was an
excellent, excellent man to work for, he was very good.
Interviewer: “One of the things I‟ve asked everybody about is their manager. Did
he treat you like a woman or did he treat you like a ball player?” 41:39
Like a ball player, and if we had to make a double play on anybody and someone‟s on
first base and want to get on second they want to get out of the way. He said, “aim for
the horn”. He called the nose the horn and he said, “If they don‟t dive they‟re going to
have a black eye”, but they are going to move if a balls coming at their head you know.
Interviewer: “The other question about managers is, several women have said that
even though they knew how to play baseball, the managers taught them little
professional tricks that they didn‟t even know about. Did you learn certain things
from them like how to slide or run or throw the ball that was different than what
you did?”
Well, I really didn‟t do any sliding when I was young you know and they told you how to
do that and we never went in with our bellies like that, never that way. It was feet first
and they told you how to do it and sometimes you‟re going to get hurt you know like I
did. 42:38
Interviewer: “How were the fans your first season?”
6
�They were nice they were nice, yeah. I remember one night I was playing right field and
also, the manager‟s always teach you—you always know how many outs there are, where
you‟re going to throw the ball if you get it, where the base runners are and all this and
that. So, this particular night I was playing right field, so I said to myself, “well, I got a
runner on third and if that balls hit to me, I got to get it in quick because she‟s fast”, so
the ball was hit to me and my momentum carried me over the foul line a little bit, so I had
to make a quick turn and make a quick throw home and I made a bullet throw and nailed
her. You should have heard the crowd, “wow, what an arm, what an arm”, and that made
me feel good, that was good. We had a pretty big crowd that night too. 43:35
Interviewer: “The first season, did a lot of people show up at these games?”
Yeah, yeah
Interviewer: “It wasn‟t until later that things changed?”
Yeah, they got down
Interviewer: “We‟ll get to that later, but I just wanted to make sure—the first
season you had a lot of people show up?”
Yeah, we had good crowds, yes.
Interviewer: “Now, you had chaperones, but you were too late for the charm school
right? You didn‟t have to go through all that?”
No, they told us what we had to do.
Interviewer: “What did you have to do?”
Well, you have to be dressed properly at all times, you have to speak good to all people
and not be nasty to them, and if anybody gets nasty with you, you just turn around and
walk away, you don‟t get nasty. That‟s what they told us to do and that‟s what we did.
7
�Interviewer: “But you were wearing blue jeans all the time, right?”
Well, when we could, we could you know. When you were living in your home you
could, but if you went out, you had to put on a skirt, but one time we snuck out. My
landlady had to go to the drugstore down the street, I had to get something, my
medication and I said, “Oh, I‟ll just run down in my shorts”, and I ran down there and I
ran back quick and Hazel said, “you better get out of here”, and I said, “yeah, I will”.
44:53 She was my landlady you know.
Interviewer: “Let‟s talk about that, when you started with this league you had to
have living arrangements, so what were your living arrangements the first season?”
Joyce Westerman, who you are going to be interviewing tomorrow, I lived with her and
Maggie Russo at Hazel‟s house. Maggie played a year before me and Joyce played quite
a few years, she was a veteran. They took care of me too. They helped me a lot and I
call Joyce my boss. She is a good girl, very good lady. 45:35
Interviewer: “So, you were staying in somebody‟s house, you had your own room or
did you share a room?”
No, I had a room upstairs because my landlady‟s mother use to live up there and she had
passed away, so Hazel put me up there because they had this nice big room up there, and
Joyce and Maggie lived downstairs.
Interviewer: “How was your social life during this period of time?”
Well, do you mean with men?”
Interviewer: “Just anything, going out to movies or anything.”
8
�Oh yeah, after ball games or rained out games, we would go to movies and stuff like that,
or go shopping you know, but I didn‟t have time for men. My mind was on baseball and
that was it.
Interviewer: “The money was pretty good though?”
Yeah, it was not bad, I didn‟t think it was too bad because I use to send some of it home
to my mom. I kept just enough, what I needed, and I would send the rest to her. I wanted
her to have it and what did she do? She put it in a bank account, a good mama. She
knew it was hers and she could get it anytime she wanted, if she needed it you know.
46:38
Interviewer: “So then you play your first season, do you come back home?”
Yup
Interviewer: “Were you finishing school?”
I didn‟t go back, I had to go to work and everything because I had to help out at home a
little bit, and if February my father died, so—no, no, that‟s a little bit too soon it was
1954 that my father died.
Interviewer: “So, you had to work, and did anybody at work know that you had
played professional baseball?”
Yeah, because all I had to do is walk in the building and, “you got a job”, really.
Interviewer: “So, how did you find out—did you already know you were going to
play a second season or did you find out some other way?”
They told us we were going to move to Battle Creek, Michigan the following year and
that year we had spring training down in North Carolina, was it North Carolina or South
Carolina? I don‟t remember exactly, but we had spring training down there with Fort
9
�Wayne, Indiana and Jimmy Fox was managing then. He was a good man, that man was a
good man. 47:47 We had Guy Bush for a manager, he was with Chicago, he was a
Chicago player, a pitcher. We‟re working our way back after spring training and we stop
at Washington D.C to play a game and I‟m out in the field and looking around in the
stands for my parents because they were going to come and see me. He comes up and
pats me on the back and he said, “I‟m going to make a pitcher out of you Pink”, and I
didn‟t want to do that, but I said, “I‟ll do it”. so a couple of the girls took me to the
mound and they started showing me what to do and all that, and all of a sudden the
clouds came and it was black and it was going to rain and I‟m looking for my folks. He
said, “We‟re going to go because it‟s going to rain”, and they threw us on the bus and
took us to Alexandria Virginia where we were staying and my parents couldn‟t find me,
but they knew where to find me at the hotel, they knew where I was going to be staying.
48:45 They found me over there and I got a phone call, “we‟re here”, and they took me
and Rita Briggs out to eat and everything and the next day they went back home.
Interviewer: “They never got a chance to see you play?”
No, my dad never got to see me play because when I got hurt in Peoria Johnny wouldn‟t
let me play. He said, “you still have that cracking noise in that elbow and I don‟t like
that”, and one of the girls said, “let her play, let her play, her mother and father are here”,
and he said, “No, I don‟t like that cracking noise”. He used to work my arm and
everything and he didn‟t like that cracking noise. I said, “Johnny, it don‟t hurt and the
doctor said I‟m fine”, but he said, “No, you‟re going to have to wait a little while”.
That‟s the way he was and he wanted to be sure you were healthy. 49:34
Interviewer: “Where did you get the name “Pinky”?”
10
�Rita Briggs gave me that. We were in Lowell Massachusetts, the season was over and we
went to a movie and we were walking down the street looking in the windows. There
were some things in there and she said, “I know what I‟m going to call you, I‟m going to
call you Pinky”, and I don‟t know where she got it. I said, “Where you getting that
Rita?” And she said, “oh, it just came into my head and that‟s the way it was with her.
She was a good catcher, oh boy, could that girl catch. She was smart, yeah.
Interviewer: “So, you‟re in the second season now, Battle Creek, you signed a
contract and you went to Battle Creek and you lived there?”
Battle Creek, yes I lived there.
Interviewer: “Where were you staying that time?”
I was staying with Maggie Russo and Josephine Hasham and we lived in a house with the
landlady and we had the upstairs to ourselves. That‟s where we lived and we didn‟t have
a car. I didn‟t have a car and neither did Maggie or Josephine. Rita Briggs use to pick us
up when it was time to go to the ballpark and that‟s how we went. 50:42
Interviewer: “What was a typical day like? You get up and get dressed, what was
the day like?”
Mostly every morning we had to practice and in the afternoon we would go home and
take it easy and about three o‟clock we had to eat before we went to the ballpark and we
had to be there at four o‟clock, get into our uniforms and start working out again to get
ready for the game. After the game was over you take a shower and go home, but first
you get something to eat. You get something to eat and you go home.
Interviewer: “Did you always know which team you were going to be playing?”
Yeah, we had a schedule.
11
�Interviewer: “Were there some teams that were a little more difficult to deal with
than others?”
Yeah, Fort Wayne was always a good team and Kalamazoo always had a good team too.
Interviewer: “Your second season you‟re no longer a rookie?”
Nope
Interviewer: “What position are you playing this time?”
Well, I was playing the pitching and I was playing the outfield. I did two positions.
Interviewer: “You did both.”
Either left field or right field when I wasn‟t pitching and sometimes I did the bull pen and
had to come in and relieve sometime. 51:53
Interviewer: “Any particular events happen in the second season that you want to
talk about?”
Let me see, no not too much.
Interviewer: “Just a regular season?”
Yeah
Interviewer: “So, now it‟s the third season, 1953 right?”
They moved us to Muskegon, Michigan and I lived with Maggie and Josephine again in a
nice house and we were within walking distance to the ballpark there, so that was nice
and we had a little restaurant to stop at to eat at after the game and before going home
and that was good too you know. We had it easy there, but Muskegon wasn‟t too good
for crowds you know. It was kind of down, so when that season was over me and
Marilyn Jones went to Fort Wayne, Indiana, which I was happy about because they were
the first place team. My roommate and Josephine went to Rockford. 52:57
12
�Interviewer: “You mentioned, just now, that the crowds in Muskegon were a lot
smaller.”
Yeah, they were a lot smaller.
Interviewer: “Did you have any idea, at that time, what your future as a baseball
player was going to be? Did you think you were going to keep playing—you‟re only
eighteen or nineteen years old by this time, and did you think you were going to be
playing into your twenties or did you already know that something was going wrong
that it wasn‟t going to last?”
Well, I was hoping it would last a long time, but I wasn‟t quite sure about it and when I
went to Fort Wayne, For Wayne always drew good because we had a good ball club
there, and I hit two home runs there. The first night I hit one and the next night a “grand
slammer”, and that was beautiful, and I had a big grin on my face there. 53:46
Interviewer: “But the last year though, the forth season, were there any indications
that things were going wrong?”
Well, they were talking about it, yeah, they were talking about it and they said that we
may not make it another year, so after our season was over, Bill Allington, he was my
manager then and he was a tough man to work for and I‟ll give you an example. I was
playing left field and someone yelled my name from out in the stands and I never
bothered looking before, but this time for some reason I did and I just turned my head and
all of a sudden I said ooh and I heard that bat you know and I said, “I better get this thing
or I‟m dead”. I had to make a shoestring catch out of it, came up with it, threw it in and
guess who‟s waiting for me when we got the third man out? He was waiting for me and
13
�he gave me hell you know and he said, “don‟t you do that again”. I didn‟t boy, I‟ll tall
you I didn‟t. 54:44
Interviewer: “The final season is the fourth season and you said there was talk
amongst the players that something might be going on?”
There were rumors that it was going to come to an end and Bill when it came to the
end—well, we were in the playoffs and we were in first place and we played against
Kalamazoo in the playoffs, but Kalamazoo beat us out. They kind of whipped me
because I use to beat Kalamazoo all the time, but this night they whipped me. I finally
got them out in this particular inning and Bill comes waiting for me and said, “What‟s the
matter with you? Didn‟t you get your rest today?” I said, “yes sir, I did”, and he said,
“What‟s the matter with you?” I said, “they‟re hitting bullets off of me. I don‟t know,
they just got me today”, and he said, “Can you catch?” I said, “no sir and I‟m not going
behind there”, and he said, “you‟re all done for the night, you go sit on the bench”. He
was a good manager though, he was tough, but he was good. 55:49
Interviewer: “That final season, you said you hit two home runs right?”
Yeah, yeah
Interviewer: “How did that happen and what was the first one?”
The first one? I don‟t know, the ball was right down the gut and I just grabbed it and I hit
it, but it was a line shot and I didn‟t think it made it over the fence and I stopped at
second and the Umpire motioned for me to keep on going and a big smile came on me
again and I want all the way around. The next night was a sweet one and I knew that
baby was gone because they were high and long and I ran those bases so nice and that
was a beauty.
14
�Interviewer: “Anybody on base?”
Yeah, the bases were loaded, yeah; the second one had the bases loaded. Bill said, “gee,
you got a little power”. When I was home and played with the boys, I use to hit a lot of
home runs, but this was a different story, there was more pressure you know. 56:47
Interviewer: “You‟re playing on several different teams, and how difficult was it to
transfer? You go from one team and now did you have a whole bunch of new girls
or did they come with you? Was it more difficult working in a new team?”
No, not really because you kind of get acquainted with everybody playing the teams
anyway. Whenever we had to change teams Maggie and Josephine were always with me
and we were roommates, so we just went along with it you know and a lot of the other
players we already knew too, so it was not difficult.
Interviewer: “During that period of time, you said that you wanted to continue
playing baseball, but did you actually think that this was what you were going to do
for most of your career or did you think you had to go to school or get a job? Were
you thinking about your future?” 57:48
Well, Fort Wayne, when we got done with the season, Bill decided that for one month we
go around and play against the men‟s teams, so we did and he picked a bunch of us
players to go around, and we did it for a month, and we did good, we beat a lot of the
guys, we beat them out. The last game we played it was my turn to pitch and what we
would do—me and my catcher would go sit with the guys and their catcher and pitcher
would go sit with the girls, and that „s how we did it. We were playing good and I was
beating my own girls and the seventh inning I started getting tired after playing the whole
season and this tour. I was getting tired, so he comes running out to me and he said,
15
�“What‟s the matter?” I said, “I‟m just getting a little bit tired, we played a whole season
you know. These two gals are pretty hard to get, but give me a chance and I‟ll try to get
them”, and I did, I got them.
58:53 I got them in a fly out you know and the next one I
had no problem with, and we get to the ninth inning and the girls had us by one run, I
think. We got some hits and we won the ball game and a guy came running to me and he
said it was the first game he won all season and he said, “Will you play for me next
year?” I said, “no I‟m going to play with the girls, I‟m sorry, but I would rather play with
my girls”, but of course we didn‟t have any more team. After the winter was over,
February my father died, this is when he died and in April I got a phone cal from Jeanne
Geissinger and she said, “Bill wants to know if you‟ll go around and play the girls against
the guys?” 59:52 They did that, I think, for four years, and I said, “I don‟t know if I
can, I just lost my father and I have to take care of my mom”, and I said, “let me think
about this and I‟ll call you tomorrow”, and she said, “ok”, and she was staying at Ma
Kelly‟s, everybody calls this lady Ma Kelly, and I said, I‟ll call you tomorrow afternoon”,
so I sat down that day thinking and thinking what I could do and I said, “no, I can‟t, I
can‟t do this, I have to say home”, so I called her up and I said, “I can‟t go, as much as I
want to, I cant‟ I got to take care of my mom”, so that was the end. 00:32
Interviewer: “Did you get a chance to play ball again after that?”
Yes, I coached CYL softball. The priest called me up and he said, “We‟re
going to start a CYL softball team and would you please coach?” I said, “I didn‟t think I
would be a very good coach, I don‟t like to lose”, and he said, “Well, give it a try, will
you please?” I said, “ok, I‟ll give it a try”, so I had these little kids you know and I had to
make up to them and I had to control myself to help them and everything else. We did
16
�pretty good except I was the only girl coach and there were all men coaches on these
other teams and they didn‟t want sliding in CYL you know, they didn‟t want the sliding.
The girls learned it in school, so we were playing this game and one of my girls slid into
third base and the coach on the other team, he started raving, “there‟s no sliding in CYL”.
1:40 I said, “I don‟t teach her to slide. I know we can‟t do it, but they learn it from high
school and it just came automatically”, so he started saying—I said, “you‟re being nasty
because I‟m a woman”, and he turned around and walked away. The Umpire said, “It‟s
ok, the girl learned it from school, from high school and she didn‟t do it on purpose”, so
anyway, we won the ball game and the guy apologized to me later.
Interviewer: “Good, good, now the priest you said, asked you and did he know you
played professional baseball?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Ok, sure, sure. What was the reaction when you got back from a
season? What was the reaction of your friends and neighbors?”
Well, I get off the bus from getting the train and then getting the bus to get home and I
got my bags and everybody‟s saying, “up, she‟s home, Pinky‟s home”. 2:42
Interviewer: „So, everyone else picked up on Pinky too? So, what was just amongst
the girls—?”
Yeah, once it started it caught on.
Interviewer: “My gosh, oh my gosh. The end of the league and you said you
became a coach afterwards; did you talk about your experiences? Did people know
that you were a baseball player ten years later, twenty years later? Did you spend a
lot of time talking about the fact that you played baseball?”
17
�The people at home knew because every spring I was gone to play ball and they would
ask me questions and this and that, and I would give them the answers you know.
Interviewer: “Some of the girls we talked to literally said after they stopped playing
they never talked about it and their kids didn‟t even know that they played
baseball.”
My father would talk and he would say that his daughter was a professional ball player
and this and that. He was proud, but I‟m so sorry he didn‟t get to see me play. 3:42
Interviewer: “When did you, let me put it this way, did you ever think at the time
that you were doing something extraordinary? People are telling you now that you
guys did this amazing thing, did you think of it way back then?”
No I didn‟t, I just went out because I loved the damn game you know. We played with
our hearts, we played hard and we were tired sometime, but we played with our hearts
and we went to win. Sometimes you lose naturally, you aren‟t always going to win, but
we had fun, we didn‟t make much money, but we had fun. It was not like these big
leaguers you know. I think that money is killing the game I think so. I think they love
the money more than the game. 4:36.
Interviewer: “When did you first hear about the movie, A League of Their Own?”
Oh, they let us know about it. They let us know about it, yeah.
Interviewer: “What was your reaction?”
I was happy, yes, I was happy and everybody gets to see it you know.
Interviewer: “So, you went to a premiere of it? Did you see it in a movie or you just
went to a movie theater and saw it?”
It was on television and everything you know.
18
�Interviewer: “You never saw it in a theater?”
No, no
Interviewer: “Oh my gosh.”
No, when it came on television I saw it you know.
Interviewer: “What was your reaction to the movie?”
Well, I didn‟t like the clubhouse thing you know because that wasn‟t true. The men
weren‟t in the clubhouse and Jimmy Foxx was never like that. He was a great man and a
gentleman all the way and that‟s the only thing I didn‟t like. Everything else was good
you know. 5:33
Interviewer: “What I heard from everyone else, and I felt this myself, it kind of
captured the spirit. It had some things they call Hollywood and what not, but
overall it was pretty accurate in terms of the spirit of it.”
Yeah, there‟s some of this make believe stuff, but when I heard that Madonna was going
to be in it I was she was going to kill it on us you know because you know how she is.
She‟s going to kill it, but Rosie O‟Donnell kept her in check and she‟s the only one who
knew how to play ball, Rosie, did you know that? Yeah, I got to know Rosie a little bit
when she wasn‟t too wild after while before she---you know a little bit.
Interviewer: “Did things change for you personally after the movie came out? I
mean, would people react to you different?”
Yeah, they want to touch you and everything. They like to touch you and they want to
talk to you and all that. 6:30 I like to talk to little kids and I like to help them.
Interviewer: “What—some of the girls I talked to said that in many ways the movie
kind of brought back the glamour and the fun of the game and a lot of them and not
19
�really forgotten that period, but they had not talked about it. Did the move have
that effect on you too, that other people somehow treated you differently?”
Yes they did, we were professionals, and they want to talk to you and ask you questions
and everything, oh yeah, and it was nice. It was nice to have people talk to you like that
you know. It made you feel good.
Interviewer: “Looking back on it now, what do you think that period of your life
was like for you. I know you did other thing and a lot of you have gone on to do
amazing things, so this was just one small part; it was four years of your life. Where
does that fit in terms of your life as you look back on it?” 7:35
I think it was the best years of my life; I really do, outside of having my daughter and
everything you know. Those were my best years; I loved it so much, and we had so
much fun. It was great and we made a lot of nice friends too. The fans were wonderful
and in Fort Wayne I use to have kids come to me all the time and it I had bullpen work
for relief, they would come down and sit on the bench with me, these little kids. If I had
a chance to give them a ball I would give them a ball or maybe if we would crack a bat
and the bat isn‟t too bad, I would say, “put a little screw in here and it will be good and
you can still use it you know. They would say, “oh boy Pinky that‟s good”, and I like to
make kids happy. 8:28
Interviewer: “I know at the time you are playing you‟re not thinking about these
sorts of things, but now, where do you think the league, in terms of the big picture of
baseball and America, where do you guys fit into all of this?”
Well, I wish we were up there a little bit more. I think the men took everything away
from us a little bit. It‟s only fight that the fans went back because those guys went to
20
�fight for our country. That‟s only right and that‟s how come we went down, but I wish
we could have stayed up, but it just didn‟t go that way and that‟s the way it went you
know. Ted Williams was my favorite player and I use to go watch him play all the time.
I wish I could have been like him though. 9:23
Interviewer: “You‟ve had a chance now, especially at reunions and you go to events
and what not, what kind of a message do you want for the young people that come
to you, what do you want to tell them about your experience as a ball player?”
Well, I tell them that I had a good life and I loved it very much, played my heart out, and
met a lot of beautiful, wonderful people and what more can you want you know, that‟s it.
These lovely little kids come up to you loving you, that makes me feel good.
Interviewer: “When did you first start coming to the reunions?”
This was my first one.
Interviewer: “After all you just said about how wonderful this is and this is your
first reunion?” 10:21
You know, I had a few injuries. I injured my legs a few times and sometimes I had
money problems and I couldn‟t afford it, so my daughter, she paid for all this.
Interviewer: “So this had got to be one of the great moments, huh? There are a lot
of amazing women out there.”
Joyce Westerman, you are going to have her tomorrow, and of course me and her were
buddies and I roomed with her. We lived the first year, with me and Maggie, and we
haven‟t seen each other in a long time and boy, we were hugging like crazy the first night
and we were crying and hugging and everything else and the girls said, “they‟re crying”,
and were taking pictures like crazy of us.
21
�Interviewer: “Well, let‟s hope you get a chance to come to other ones.”
“We‟ll be going to San Diego
Interviewer: Oh good, my mom lives in San Diego, so maybe I‟ll bring her to the
next reunion.”
Yeah, good, that‟s good
Interviewer: “That would be good. That would be really good and I want to thank
you very much. This had been a wonderful experience to sit down and talk to you.
This was delightful. 11:39
22
�23
�
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-58_NLeDuc
Title
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LeDuc, Noella (Interview transcript and video), 2010
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LeDuc, Noella
Description
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Noella Le Duc was born in Graniteville, Massachusetts in 1933. She grew up playing baseball with the boys, and when she was sixteen, a friend of her mother's introduced her to one of the AAGPBL players, Rita Briggs, who arranged a tryout for her in 1951. She played in the AAGPBL from 1951 through 1954, first with Peoria and later with Muskegon and Fort Wayne. She was primarily an outfielder, but also tried her hand at pitching and catching.
Contributor
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Boring, Frank (Interviewer)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
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Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Illinois
Language
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eng
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2010-08-05
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4f756576e9bef9696fff35ca45191409.mp4
081e4dedef53289564557edb3db6e1dd
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/62f61dba861decd0c5a90df5972bf191.pdf
8bf969ebebb9b042568af5728381d18f
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Jeneane Lesko
Length of Interview: (43:08)
Date of Interview: August 4, 2010 at the Reunion of the Professional Girls Baseball League
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Lindsey Thatcher, March 23, 2011
Interviewer: “Today is August 4, 2010. We are doing an interview with a former player
from the All American Girls Professional Baseball League, Jeneane Lesko currently of
Kirkland, Washington. The interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Rapids University
Veteran’s History Project. Now Jeneane, can you start by giving us some background
about yourself. To begin with, when and where were you born?”
I was born in 1935 in Springfield, Ohio. After I was 6 and my parents divorced then I spent a lot
of time traveling. So I kind of have the traveling bug so the All American League was kind of a
good place to land in my early years.
Interviewer: “So how did you first get involved with sports?”
Well I was always well during the war I was always imitating (01:00) the soldiers. They used to,
when were living in Texas at one point they had parade guards in the parking lot and I would go
out with my little toy rifle and do all the movements they were doing with the gun and I used to
practicing much of the day. So I started that way and ended up in the way and ended up in the
tree shooting the enemies with a play rifle, in my early years. So I was always a tom boy always
running around and doing things that were very active and I just sort of just fell into sports and
loved it and always played with the boys and participated as much as I could with all the boys
that were playing out in the fields and the sand lot all that sort of playing ball.
Interviewer: “Which sports did you play then?
Oh I played, as a child growing up we had our basic sports were basketball and baseball for the
men’s for the boy’s teams. So I would be practicing with them and I was always hanging out
with the varsity team and of course they wouldn’t let me play (02:00) because I was a girl but I
would give them competition enough that they let me participate in the practice and warm up the
pitchers and that sort of thing. So I got a lot of practice and I got really good at throwing the ball
and catching the ball and I didn’t ever play a particular position until I graduated from high
school and I finally played on a softball team in Lima, Ohio which was nearby and that was the
only team that I had ever played on and there I was playing short stop. So I certainly wasn’t a
pitcher, where I ended up in with the league as a pitcher.
Interviewer: “Now did you know anything about the league in high school or that kind of
thing?”
�I didn’t find out until I was a senior in high school and there was an advertisement in the largest
town nearby where I grew up, Lakeview Ohio was Lima so you know in the Lima Newspaper
there were little article saying there were going to be try outs in Michigan and so I decided that I
would try to go up there. We had a local fella that had (03:00) ten sons who had played in the
town’s team that I was a bat girl for and he encouraged me to go and I knew nothing about
pitching but he did and he showed me how to pitch. I could throw a curve and my changeup was
a knuckleball so if and when I got it over the plate it was hard to hit but I had a real control
problem that first year so I was not a varsity pitcher until second year.
Interviewer: “Now why did you become a pitcher if you were a short stop originally?”
Well I was left handed and I didn’t think that I had a chance to try out as a shortstop because I
was left handed. When I got to try outs I found out that these girls were really good ball players
and in my town there was no one that could come close to being as good as I was. So I didn’t
realize that there were women out there playing ball who were so tremendous at the game so I
figured I had a better chance at (04:00) pitching because they carried about four or five pitchers
on the team so I just said, well I’m a pitcher and I could show them how hard I could throw and
they didn’t ask me to throw anything else so the Grand Rapids Chicks picked me up and Woody
English was my manager, we didn’t call them coaches we called them managers.
Interviewer: “As you were contemplating going into the league and you decided that you
had a better chance as a pitcher, did you do anything to prepare before you went to the try
out?”
Yes, my friend Jack Hudson, he was about sixty five years old at that point, would come to my
house and we would mark out how far it would be to pitch the ball, and we were doing 60 feet
with a regulation baseball. I didn’t realize that they were playing with a 10 inch ball and they
were throwing it like 56 feet in the beginning that first year. So it was a big change just in the
size of the ball when I got to the league. I think when they changed the regulation baseball the
second year I did much better and I had good control because that was what I was used to
playing with. But yeah, he showed me how to throw those pitches and we would practice for
about a month and half before I had to go to spring training so.
(05:14)
Interviewer: “Alright, now where did they do the spring training that year in ‘53?”
They did it in Michigan; it just slipped my mind where I’m sorry.
Interviewer: “Was it Battle Creek maybe?”
Yeah that’s right, it was Battle Creek, right.
Interviewer: “So how do they run the training then? Did people come in to try out?”
�Well I came in on the field it was just covered with women and I think there were about a
hundred women there trying out. And they had coaches I presume, you know, coaches from all
the different teams. I was only eighteen and had never left my state before alone. And I had
driven up there by myself and here I was in an unfamiliar place. Yeah, I was very very shy
because I kind of been in sports and sort of, that’s what I did I played sports, I was really a Tom
boy.
(06:04)
Interviewer: “Okay, so then when you drive up, you get to Battle Creek where were they
doing the try outs was it a gym or a field…?”
Yeah it was a ball field and it had, you know I don’t remember exactly where it was but it had a
stadium and the stadium was covered and it looked like you know a miniature professional
baseball league, that’s what it looked like and now I know that you know a lot of smaller towns
had those kinds of fields in that day.
Interviewer: “Sure, so you get there and then do they just check you off, tell you where to
go? What actually happens there?”
Well they put us into groups and then they would have us do certain things, run, they would have
us run to bases, and they would have us slide, and they would have us doing all these different
things. And pretty much the movie kind of showed the story there of what it was like at spring
training. A lot of gals just all throwing a ball just trying to outdo each other to make it on the
team (07:02). Yeah and then they did actually informed us who was to go to what field. I think
that quite a few of the girls did make it because at that point at that year in fact in ’53 a lot of the
girls that were a lot of the good players had gone back to play professional softball in Chicago
leagues. So they had a need for a number of players that year.
Interviewer: “Okay, did Chicago leagues pay better?”
Well I believe it was the Bloomer Girls that were playing at that time and some of them had
played in that Chicago league from the beginning and these were some of the girls that were
playing in the very beginning and there were some differences of the opinion with some coaches
and there were some problems and so they just quit. And I wouldn’t surprised that because the
league was sort of declining at the time, which I at the time knew nothing about that they
probably weren’t going to get paid as much so they probably left for that reason.
(08:00)
Interviewer: “Alright, so there is openings up, you make the team and which team do you
get assigned to?”
Grand Rapids, the Grand Rapids Chicks and that year 1953 they won the pendant. We had a
terrific ball club so there was no way that they were going to let me do very much pitching that
first year. If we get way far ahead or way far behind they would let me go in and play. I found
�some of the news clippings because we had tremendous news coverage from the local papers and
support from the people from the town and I was able to acquire some of those and it was just
really funny to read some of the clippings. He would leave me in there, you know, I would be
walking and walking and they would be walking in and he just left me out there to just humiliate
me and make me realize that I had to get the ball over the plate I guess. It was hilarious to read
thinking back. But one thing I always had, I always had confidence that I could do it (09:01)
even when I threw it wild I had confidence that the next was going to be right over the plate and
eventually the next year when I came at the beginning when I started college that next year so
my first year out of college I came back and I went into a game that was a double header game
so it was only a seven inning game but it was like the 6th or 5th inning and they put me in and the
bases were loaded and there was only one out and I managed to get us out of the inning and
when I went up to bat and I actually hit the ball and the score, the running runs scored so I
actually did something well so immediately I was made a starting pitcher and I lived up to it, I
was not wild that year at all. And I was a starting pitcher, so it was great.
Interviewer: “In that first season when you were wild, would you get hit much, would they
just duck or… ?”
Oh I had one really bad experience with that. This one gal and I have been trying to recognize
her ever (10:00) since and I haven’t been able to determine which catcher or which team it was
we were playing at the time but I threw the ball and it was a really hard fast ball, right at her head
and she hit the dirt and I was, and she got up and she started coming after me at the mount and I
started backing up I had no idea what was going to happen next but my teammates come up off
the bench to try to protect me and then of course the umpires came out and broke it all up but I
was nervous the rest of that game because she scared me, I thought she was going to be after me
after the game.
Interviewer: “Now, could they hit your pitches? Or were you wild enough that they had a
hard time with that?”
Oh that first year I don’t think I got close enough to plate to let them try to hit it. It was you
know, I could throw it but it wasn’t coming close to the plate very often. Then they just waited
for me to walk them it was very humiliating.
Interviewer: “Alright, but you didn’t get cut or anything? You stayed with the team?”
(11:02)
Oh no no no, he had great confidence in me and I was left handed pitcher and that was a great
attribute because we only had like 3 or 4 left handed pitchers in the league, so they weren’t used
to seeing the ball coming at them and breaking way. And you know for the lefties that came up
so it was, I had a very good curve ball, they weren’t hitting that. You know, if they hit anything it
was because I put it right down the middle, I was still not able to spot pitch it well enough was
the only reason that, I still had a winning record. I had 8-6 that year.
�Interviewer: “Winning record, I guess left handed pitchers who can pitch well are just a
valuable commodity.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “And still are.”
Still are.
Interviewer: “Alright”
That’s right.
Interviewer: “Let’s go back to that first season a little bit. What was life like for you there
with Chicks that first year?”
Oh it was really an experience, because like I said I had never been out of the state except in my
really younger years (12:00) when I was traveling with my mother. So to be driving out there on
my own I remember when I was really thrilled that I was going to be, you know getting a check
for playing baseball, getting paid to play I was just thrilled to death, so actually you know doing
that and doing some work through college I was able to pay my way through college without any
problem. And I had never really had a real steak, so the first thing I did was to go out and order a
big T-bone steak. I can just almost taste it I remember how excited I was to have my first steak.
So yeah I lived with a couple there they were a Dutch family and I had one roommate and we
had a curfew. We had to be in and we had to tell them if we were going to be out and where we
were going but I was kind of a, I was kind of a… I’ve never told this on an interview before but I
used to go with the police department that would, that raided the houses on at night you know,
and they would come to ball games (13:07). We had a lot of police that would come by and they
were detectives and so they ask me if I wanted to go along with them this one night when they
were raiding a house and they took me on the raid and people were jumping out of the windows
and I was sitting in the car and I was just scared to death of what they were doing but it was
really fun experience and you know at that age it was quite exciting.
Interviewer: “Alright, what kind of relationship did the team have with the fans at that
time do you think?”
Oh it was great, it was great. We had a lot of support they were always there cheering for us.
Even in the, because it was in the last two years and we didn’t have the seventeen thousand like
they did at times in the earlier years but we had a good following there were always people in the
stands. It wasn’t like it is today when the girls try to play baseball and there are only six or eight
people that bother to come to the games. I’m sure it’s hard to play today when you don’t have
anybody coming to your games.
(14:08)
�Interviewer: “Well the women’s softball series had made it onto ESPN2 at least, so they are
getting there.”
Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: “Yeah, now how did the more veteran players treat the new ones when they
came in, do you remember what kind of reception you got?”
Oh, if it hadn’t been for the veteran players the pitchers, I wouldn’t have probably have made it
as a pitcher. Because Woody English had played short stop for the Chicago I believe they were
the Cubs then and he, he wanted a championship team and he didn’t pay much attention to us
rookies at all. So every time I would come to field in my rookie year he would say, my name was
“Des Combes comes”, my maiden name so he would say “De Combes go run in the outfield”.
Every time I would come on that’s where he put me “Go run in the outfield”. So everybody was
having batting practice (15:00), pitchers didn’t have to learn to bat so all I could do doing during
batting practice was run back in forth across the field in the back, which was and the field was
like a football field so it was wide open and it was like the left side of the field and I was just run
back and forth back and forth. And you know, he never even told me why you know, but then
Beans Risinger who was one of the very good starting pitchers and Alma Ziegler was one of the
starting pitchers at the time and they took me under their wing and showed me how to wind up
and that sort of thing you know I had no idea how to stretch and wind up, I had no idea. You
know, I think I even got called bulk several times for it, because I didn’t know how to do that. So
it was really their help and their tutoring that taught me how to really be a pitcher.
Interviewer: “You also had some other rookies on the team too, you had some new
players?”
(15:57)
Oh we had rookies yeah, we had some other rookies that were playing. Yeah and some other gals
that had been out there, they did a lot of trading you know. They tried to keep the teams even, the
skill levels even. So that when people came to the games they were exciting and they did a very
good job of that. So there were always moving players around from one team to another. But in
Grand Rapids they had a few people that just stay there and were there all of the time. I think that
was pretty true throughout the league, they would keep four or five of the really star players who
were good draws for the clubbing because they had this connection to them and the rest of the
people would get rotated around a lot. Even in that two years we probably had four or five
people that would change from one year to the next. But yeah, but we had a lot of pitchers and
they all were very, very friendly, all the players they, they just accepted us immediately. There
was no difference between the regular infield and outfield; they were very willing to work with
the younger people.
(17:02)
Interviewer: “Okay, now how much of the sort of rules and regulations of league were still
in place? You mentioned that you had a curfew at the home that you were staying at. Did,
�was there still a chaperone, were they still telling you or giving you a list of do’s and don’ts
or was most of that gone by then?”
Well I had probably one of the best chaperones in the league. She had been a former player,
Dottie Green, and she was tremendous. You know, what they did in the movie to the chaperones
was just sad to all the players because the chaperones were just our best friends; they were like
your mother or your grandmother away from home you know. So, I loved the chaperone she was
just wonderful to us. And they weren’t strict about going around and checking to make sure you
were home or any of that. But they were strict when they told you the rules and they gave us a
little booklet of what the rules were and told us that was what we had to do. Well in that era back
in the ‘40s and the ‘50s you did what your parents told you to do. You didn’t try to figure out
how to go around it when you were you know, a teenager, so us younger players we toed the line
pretty well, I got a little risqué in that second year you know, went out once or twice when I
wasn’t supposed to be out but that’s basically it (18:18).You know I was pretty conforming to
the rules but there were older gals that were doing things, but you know they didn’t bother the
players that much. But the thing that they did that bothered me is when I went I had very, very
long hair all the way down my back and I had never had my hair cut and I had to cut my hair.
Well I didn’t know what to do with my hair so I figured well I’ll go to the barber shop. I don’t
know if they have beauty shops but all I knew was that people go to the barber shop. So I went to
the barber shop and he just about scalped me, and you had to have your hair below the cap and
mine wasn’t. So I kind of hid I stayed away from as far as I could away from Woody English
because I was afraid that he would call me on it, until my hair grew out it kind of stayed that
trend you know. I just stayed out behind the infield he would yell at me from there what to do
that first year so (19:15). Second year I let my hair be normal and it was okay I wasn’t shy about
it by the time the first year was over but my hair was a problem. But they didn’t force you to
wear makeup like they showed in the first year. We never had to wear makeup. But when we got
on our bus to go on our trips away out of town, we had to wear the skirts. We all rolled our jeans
up and we had our jeans under our skirts and we all look like we were about two hundred pounds
because our because they were these flared old skirts they used to wear so they were stuck way
out here and of course your pants were pushing the skirt way out but you could get in and out of
them because it was an elastic top you could just slide it in and out, it wasn’t too difficult. And
we always wore our body socks and shoes because we didn’t have to wear heels or anything. We
did have to wear heels, I have a picture of us going we had to go to this specific building to get
our checks. We had to be all dressed up, we would go as a team, and we had to be all dressed up
we had to have on heels and I have on heels there. But if we were out on the street and kind of as
a group we had to dress up like that. But normally, day to day just a skirt would do.
(20:32)
Interviewer: “Okay now the ’53 season was the year that Chick’s actually managed to win
the League Championship. Is there anything that stands out in your mind about that
season or the last part of it or the final games?”
Well I do know that Beans was pitching that game and it was a close game and know that Alma
Ziegler came up and was talking to her trying to encourage her you know “You can do it”. Alma
Ziegler was about as tall as I am now so and Ziggy is about 6’ 4”, I mean Beans was about 6’ 4”,
�so they look like Mutt and Jeff out there on the mound, the little one telling the big one what she
should to do. I can recall seeing that scene and she did win that game and won the championship.
Interviewer: “Now Alma was another pitcher, wasn’t she?”
Well she was, but she played second base all the time. She only pitched when there was real
need. But the thing about Alma was she was the oldest player on the team, she was a spark plug
she was always the captain, very quick. She wasn’t a good hitter at all, she was very small but
she could place the ball and get on base, but she couldn’t throw by that time. She might have
thrown the ball better when she was younger but when I got there she couldn’t throw the ball
very well but she threw it so slow that after they had seen like Beans or one of us that threw it
really hard people couldn’t hit her. So Woody would put her in, you know, I mean anytime, she
could throw the ball to the plate all the time. There was nothing on it because it was just kind of
floating up there. So people would miss it because it was so slow.
(22:13)
Interviewer: “Alright, when that ’53 season comes to an end and so forth, so have you
started college after that?”
I started college, yeah.
Interviewer: “And where did you go to college?”
Ohio Northern University and I was always in all the sports and captain of the basketball team
and I played softball there a lot so I had gotten a lot of softball when I was playing in college,
team play.
Interviewer: “And how did the level of play of the college softball teams compare with the
Professional Baseball League?”
Well softball is a different game you know, so it’s…you know they could play we had some
good players, we had some, we had some good athletes in college. It wasn’t quite like how it was
in high school. In high school it was a small school so we didn’t have a girl that I could actually
play catch with. Nobody else would even want to play catch with me so it was a really small
community. But in college you are going all over the state you know. In college we had some
good players, it was competitive. It was okay softball. But it was softball and not baseball, it’s a
whole different ball game.
Interviewer: “Was there an overlap between the academic year and the baseball season?”
(23:30)
Right, yeah. I had to miss spring training because I was still in college but I was there when the
games started, the season. But I would always miss when they would take team pictures, that was
�bad. I have the team picture I think it was the ’54 team picture but in ’53, or the opposite,
anyway I only have one of the two years that I was in the League that I’m in the picture.
Interviewer: “Okay since you missed the training in ’54 you came to the team and now they
had gone to the regulation size baseball, and now you sort of had your control back and do
you think that surprised the manager to see you actually go up and there do it right?”
He didn’t seem surprised at all. And he didn’t have any lack of confidence in me at all either. I
mean, he was impressed I’m sure, but he never changed. He wasn’t the person who at least my
experience with him, he didn’t mingle with the players. He wasn’t your friend; he was somebody
who you just said “yes sir” to sort of. He reminded me of my father. So it was and I wasn’t used
to be around a man telling me what to do because my father wasn’t around when I was growing
up that much, so. I was a little shaken by him. I didn’t really know his history. I didn’t know who
he was or who he had played for. I really hadn’t watched baseball except for the Cleveland
Indians was the only club I followed, so I had no idea who he was. He was just a guy chewing
tobacco up there spitting onto the field to me and I wasn’t too impressed by him but I was afraid
of him.
(25:12)
Interviewer: “Did he change at all how he treated you as that season went on and it was
clear that you were pitching up to that regular level?”
Oh yeah, you know he didn’t make me go running anymore. I was treated like I was a regular
ball player then. But he still didn’t care if I hit. I would say “Can I please practice, will you
please show me what I should do here? How can I improve my hitting?” because I wasn’t a good
hitter. He said: “Oh it doesn’t matter, you aren’t supposed to hit. Just hit the ball, get in here and
get your arm covered up, save your arm”. He was really concerned about the pitchers saving
their arms, keeping their arms warm and so he was not concerned at all about the fact that I
couldn’t hit the ball.
Interviewer: “Did they have you bunt, or was that a…?”
I bunted a lot. Yeah, I made a lot of outs. But I batted 126, which not many professional ball
players stay in the League long batting 126.
(26:13)
Interviewer: “Except if they are good pitchers.”
If they are good pitchers they can do it.
Interviewer: “When you were playing, particularly that last season, so you are starting
fairly regularly and pitching a lot of innings. Were there particular teams or players that
gave you a lot of trouble?”
�Oh yeah. It was the Ft. Wayne Daisies that were the star teams during those years and they had
the Foss and my memory is starting to leave me, and they had the three sisters that were, if you
can help me out with the suggestion of the names. I played half the league with them I played in
Allington’s All-stars. I played on the children’s team with a lot of those gals from the Ft. Wayne
Daisies. Jean, the Weaver sisters, Jean Weaver and Betty Foss was her sister and they were the
best hitters in the league. I mean they were 300+ hitters so when they came to the plate, yes I was
a little bit afraid that I might not throw it past them but I constantly kept that in mind. “I can
throw this ball past them”. That’s was what really kept me going. I have always been good at
focusing on one thing and so I was good at focusing on where the catcher put the glove (27:42).
And that was all I would do, that would be my aim was to put that ball in the glove. I was never
aware of anybody in the stands or anything anybody was saying, it was just me and that glove,
always, so I really really enjoyed it and was really sad when the League folded. I had no idea that
the League was having financial problems and that that it was going to fold until it was that
spring and Catie Horstman was one of the gals from Ohio who actually only lived 10 miles from
me but I didn’t know it in Ohio. So she, when the League quit Bill Allington was the manager
who was in the League for 11 of of the 12 the only one that was there all those years. And a very,
very good teaching coach so I was happy to be able to be playing with him those, I played until I
graduated college I played in the touring team he got 12 girls, there were 11 girls and him so
there were 12 of us and 2 vehicles, two cars and a station wagon. Toured around and played
men’s teams. We had a great time and we had a lot of those really good ball players. So I had a
really good opportunity to play but anyway I really enjoyed those years and sorry to see it go but
I wanted to a professional so from there I took up golf and played professional golf for awhile.
(29:12)
Interviewer: “Alright, let’s go back to the Barn starting business. Where were you going
and what kind of response did you get? ”
Well we had a booking agent in Omaha, Nebraska. And he booked a lot in that area. Iowa,
Nebraska, in the Midwest in that area. And some up in Minnesota and in the areas we had played
and we played at St. Paul and we would play in minor league ball clubs or we would play town
teams we would play anybody that he could schedule us a game with. So we were constantly in
our cars driving hundreds of miles all night long to get to the next game. And we tried to, you
know we played at least 5 nights a week, and double headers many times. So it was on the road
constantly trying to get to the next game. You know we would take whatever we got from the
gate and split it. I don’t know how much Bill Allington took but he would, he would pay for the
scheduling of the games he would take some and we would split all the rest among the players.
We would end up with 2 or 3 dollars sometimes. Then we would have to pay for our hotel and
get our own food out of that, so it didn’t pay anything but nobody wanted to leave, nobody
wanted to stop playing. It was the only opportunity to continue to play, and I was fortunate to be
one of the eleven that went.
�(30:38)
Interviewer: “How successful were you on playing the men’s teams? Did you beat a lot of
them?”
Well, we, Bill had a really good idea and it really worked. And that was that we exchanged
batters, pitchers and catchers and then we would play them head on. We would play regulation
baseball and regulation baseball field and it worked great. I mean it was like split (31:00) 50/50,
I have the records of the games and we won as many as we lost. And depending on the, I was
always pitching against these all-star girls who were on the team but we had some great pitchers
with us so it was really even and nobody gave anything away, it was a fight. We wanted to win,
they wanted to win and it was a competitive game. And really drew the crowds and when we
were pitching against the man pitcher and catcher, and of course most of their relatives are in the
stands came to see this just hoping that these guys would strike out which they often did. I think I
struck this catcher out like four times in the game, he just fell apart and people would just laugh
in the stands and just really give him a hard time. And then after the game we would all go out
and just have a great time. We had really great relationships with the town and the teams that we
played.
(32:00)
Interviewer: “Then how did that stuff come to an end? Did it kind of just wear out its
welcome, or you all got tired of it?”
Well I left, I played for three years and that last year they had to get people who were not in the
league to play because they couldn’t get enough All Americans to go back out and play. And I
went overseas to teach so I wasn’t playing anymore. But they got some pretty good players in
various locations but that was the problem, they weren’t part of the All Americans and I guess
Bill decided to let it go.
Interviewer: “Alright, now so you became a teacher, so did you major in education or did
you have a particular field?”
Well when I started in college I had this big plan, I was going to be an atomic scientist but I kind
of backed down off of that and I decided to be a teacher. Of course most everybody in that era
was either going to become a teacher or a nurse (33:03). And so I decided into going into
teaching. I had a math degree and a physical education minor so I taught physical education in
Puerto Rico, and Europe and the Philippines for the Air Force, dependent children.
Interviewer: “So you…?”
I let the baseball go, I never even turned my head back to see it. It was just like well now that
part of my life is gone now I am going to be a golfer. So I made sure that every Air Force base I
went to had a golf course and I practiced and practiced and practiced so when school was out I
�was on the golf course and I got lessons from pros and I went back to California about nine years
later and went to a country club and got my established hand and cap and turned pro and played
for like 4 years on and off until the money would run out and I would go to work for awhile and I
would go out on a tour and play a few more tournaments (34:08). Then I met my husband, got
married and had three children and that was the end of my professional career. And then they
started getting the All Americans back together with the Players Association and were talking
about making this movie and my kids were all small then. So when they asked us to come back
and if we wanted to be in this scene in the movie, I said, “Oh I can’t do that I have these little
kids to take care of”. So I had no idea that it was going to be Gina Davis, and Tom Hanks, and I
would have gotten there somehow if I would have known that. But it was too late then so I didn’t
make it to the movie.
Interviewer: “Now did your friends and people know that you played ball?”
My children didn’t know it, my husband didn’t know it, no one knew it. Well my sisters knew it
because they were involved when I was doing it of course but no, none of my family knew it at
all I never mentioned it, never thought about it very often. But I played on softball teams you
know, I went back to playing softball. And I went into real estate and we had our own team and I
played all over the field, anyplace I wanted to because I could still play real well you know so
I’m still playing senior softball, I play first base so I don’t have to run very much.
(35:28)
Interviewer: “So even your husband didn’t know? When did you meet him?”
No, I met, I was playing golf and Marilyn Smith, who was a pro at the time said well go and take
lessons from this guy in Los Angeles and he will help you with your game, so I did and my
husband was practicing his golf there and wanted to play professional golf so that’s where I met
him and three months later we got married.
Interviewer: “What year was that?”
Let’s see that would have been about ’65, something like that.
(36:03)
Interviewer: “That’s a good good space of time after the league had ended and you had
stopped that. So that was just some miscellaneous thing that you had done when you were
younger and not a really big deal…”
Right, just part of my growing up experiences. Well then I was traveling all over the country that
was something I always wanted to do I always had this drive that I had this agenda, of things I
wanted to play professionally to make my living, and I wanted to travel, those are the two things,
�and I wanted to leave the place that I was born where there was always nothing ever to do. So I
have been living an exciting life ever since.
Interviewer: “How do you think the experience with the League that affected you and kind
of filled in some pieces of that?”
Oh, that defined who I was, that really defined who I was. I had gained so much confidence in
playing and learned so much from the teamwork and the friendships and camaraderie that was
involved in that playing in those years. It totally defined me, I was not afraid to do anything. I
rode all over Europe on a motor scooter by myself; I camped out under bridges with a blanket to
see the country (37:22). I went there I had no job when I went to Europe so I bought a motor
scooter and toured around all summer on that motor scooter I had never been to Europe before.
So really I had no fear. It really, it taught me, and that travel taught me a lot about life, to
appreciate it. I appreciated the fact that I had that chance so much and that there were so many
people out there doing something that I liked to do it gave me a lot of confidence in who I was. I
no longer felt like I was an outcast because I liked to do these things that boys liked to do it was
like something is wrong with you if you do something like that if you go out and play, but the
boys that you play with if you play as well as they do they don’t care if you play with them. It
was the adults who were being judgmental about the fact that I was the only one doing it. But the
people in town really liked me, I worked hard in that little town and I got to know the people that
were running the restaurants and the business, I worked in a little restaurant and the fella who
owned the big expensive restaurant across the street, my sisters worked for him, so he knew what
a great athlete I was. So when I was just deciding to go and do baseball he called me over and
said “You know,” he was a golfer and he says “you know, you could play professional golf” he
said “if you want to learn to play golf instead of play baseball I’ll sponsor you so you can learn
how to play golf “. I said “Oh no. I don’t want to play golf, no, I don’t want to chase that little
ball around. I want to play baseball”. So I had a choice then, and I chose the baseball (39:01).
But then that thought never left my mind…well maybe I can play golf. The strange thing was
when I went to Puerto Rico they had no left handed clubs so I had to learn how to play right
handed, so I did. I still putt left hand but I played right handed but I have had opportunities cross
my path and I am one of those spontaneous people that I just do it. I don’t think about if it was a
good decision or not, I just do it. And I’m glad I have because I’ve really lived a really, really
full life.
Interviewer: “On a little bit larger scale, where do you have the sense that where the
League fits in terms of the larger history of women and sports, do you think you did
something valuable or feel like you helped show what women could do or helped set up
thing to come later or was it just something that happened and is disconnected from Title
IX and the things to come later?
(39:59)
�Well I don’t think anybody knew who we were until the movie came out. So, we didn’t think we
were anybody special. No matter who you talk to, we said that we played for the love of the
game because we loved to play the game. And constantly we would go as a group someplace and
people are telling us “Gee if it hadn’t been for you there wouldn’t have been any Title IX”, well
that’s not true. Billy Jean King probably did more for Title IX than anybody and women’s sports.
But in retrospect all history is based like that on what people did previously, so we have kind of
inherited that position and I think that since we have inherited it we have done more for it
consciously than we did before; I mean I don’t think anybody had any thought of women in the
future while we were playing. But now the position that we are in we support other girls in sports
we are always all out going to schools, not all of us but a good portion of the women have been
in sports all of these years in one capacity or another as teachers, instructors, or coaches they all
have added to it throughout their lifetimes.
(41:17)
Interviewer: “Alright, is there anything else you would like to add to the record here before
we close out the interview?”
I just want to go on the record and say that the All American Girls Professional Baseball League
if hadn’t been for those women in the ‘40’s who stuck through all those changes from fast
pitched softball to bring it into being baseball the way that they have, there wouldn’t have been a
League because fast pitched softball was pretty ordinary sport at that time. But women to play
actual baseball is what people give us credit for (42:00). It was an evolution just like men’s
baseball was an evolution of softball as well, most people don’t know that but it was, but the fact
that we did that is really motivating a lot of girls today that are playing in Little League to want
to play baseball. And I think that baseball is a much better game than softball. Because it is a
smaller ball and girls have smaller hands and it is easier to throw and it is so much more thought
into the game of baseball because there is so much more time there is much more strategy and it
is much, it’s a whole different game but it’s a very exciting game when you are playing, it might
not be an exciting game to watch but it is very exciting to play. And I hope more girls, I am a
very big advocate of women’s baseball and involved with the women’s baseball in the United
States now and I traveled with an Australian team that comes over here all the time so I get to
travel to Australia so I am really involved in Women’s baseball.
Interviewer: “Well it makes for a really great story, so thanks for coming in an telling it
today.”
Thank you, thank you very much.
(43:08)
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-58_JLesko0503BB
Title
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Lesko, Jeneane (Interview transcript and video), 2010
Creator
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Lesko, Jeneane
Description
An account of the resource
Jeneane Lesko was born in Springfield, Ohio, in 1935. She grew up playing sports, practicing with men's baseball and basketball teams. She was playing for a softball team in Lima, Ohio, when she was recruited into the AAGPBL. She was a pitcher for the Grand Rapids Chicks during the last two seasons of the league, 1953-1954. Because of the larger size ball and the shorter distance between the pitcher's mound and home plate in the women's league, she had control problems as a pitcher in her first season, but still went 8-6. During the final season, when the league changed the rules and played the standard men's game, she did even better. After the league folded, she joined a barnstorming team made up of former league players, and stayed with it for three years. After that, she became a teacher and a professional golfer, and has actively supported women's baseball.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Baseball players--Michigan
Language
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eng
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2010-08-04
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/17114e18c67f0d9cecc0d8807b0e65e9.mp4
f431b2f42b08a727037ee572400ac60d
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/92c8cf0a53f5a8d748c2e575d0bfbaaa.pdf
53619c66253afeef71e5004a43ba3880
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
JOYCE BARNES McCOY
A player in the first year of the league 1943
Women in Baseball
Born: 1925 Hutchinson, Kansas
Resides:
Interviewed by: Gordon Olson, GVSU Veterans History Project, September 27, 2009,
Milwaukee, WI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, September 16, 2010
Interviewer: “Now Joyce, before we get into talking about that first year of the
league let‟s put some background information on the table. Tell me, if you will,
when and where you were born and a little bit about your family, your parents, and
that sort of thing.”
I was born on a farm south of Hutchinson, Kansas. My father was a farmer and my
mother had an uncle that had been in the oil business down in Louisiana and he became
ill and couldn‘t work any longer, so he bought this farm and he needed somebody to run
his farm, so that‘s where I was born, was on this farm.
Interviewer: “And what year was that?”
1925
Interviewer: “October?”
October 18th
Interviewer: “October 18th 1925. Your parents‟ names?”
Edward J. Barnes and Ethyl Amy Chase. 2:06
Interviewer: “All right now, we‟ll jump right into your youth. At some point you
start playing ball. You obviously enjoyed playing ball and how did it come about—
because it wasn‟t always what young girls did at that time, out playing ball.”
1
�I had two older brothers, a younger sister and a younger brother and those days were kind
of hard times. You didn‘t have a lot of money, but we were happy and we played and we
played ball.
Interviewer: “What kind of equipment did you have to play?”
Not very fancy and I didn‘t even have a ball glove until I was in grade school and got on
a ball team.
Interviewer: “The ball got batted around and you would stick it back together?”
Yes, we played with whatever we could find.
Interviewer: “If the bat broke you tapped it back together. You developed some
skill at the game though?” 3:06
Well, when I was in sixth grade we moved to—we had lived in a little settlement close to
the city of Hutchinson and then we moved farther out into the country and I went to a
little country school and I guess I was the biggest girl in the sixth grade, so the teacher
just decided I was to be the pitcher and that‘s when I really got started.
Interviewer: “Kept playing—did you play in any kind of organized teams or
leagues during that period of your life?”
No, we played against the other grade schools, all the other little country grade schools.
Interviewer: “And they would bus you I guess, or take from one school to another.”
By car
Interviewer: “By car from one school to another?”
Yes
Interviewer: “that can get to be some pretty intense rivalry once and a while?”
2
�Yes it was, I had some cousins in another grade school and they were pretty competitive.
One of the girls was older than me and she was a little better. 4:16
Interviewer: „You had to establish who was in charge there. Ok now, you play ball
and you‟re getting pretty good at it. At what point did it go--?”
When I went to high school the girls couldn‘t compete, they were not allow, they thought
it was too strenuous for girls to play ball and I know, I was a freshman in high school and
my oldest brother was a senior and the basketball coach told him that he sure wished I
was a boy.
Interviewer: “What was permitted for the girls?”
Well, we played tennis, we could play some tennis and we had one year of physical
education and that was all and we had intramural, but we couldn‘t compete with other
schools. 5:05
Interviewer: “Did you play any version of basketball?”
Yes, when I played there I had to play the girls rules, but when I was out in a—I was in a
country school where they had—the goals were outside and we played in the dirt and we
played boys rules then.
Interviewer: “I think for some of the people that will look at this interview, we may
have to explain just a little bit what girls rules were. Can you do that?”
The forwards played—they had a line at the half court and the forwards played on the
front and the guards played on the back part and guarded the forwards of the other team.
5:52
Interviewer: “So the guards could only come up to half court and had to pass the
ball into the offensive zone really.”
3
�When I was a freshman in high school they had a tournament in a little grade school
called Willis, which was east of my high school and the teacher, one of the teachers
wanted me to come and referee the game, so they let me out of school and I went over
and refereed the grade school game and if a person, a girl, had a hold of the ball and the
other one came up and put their hand on it, that was a foul.
Interviewer: “Didn‟t have to touch the person, just touch the ball?”
Just touch the ball, that was a foul. They didn‘t have any-Interviewer: “Certainly no type guarding or anything of that sort.”
No, no
Interviewer: “And that form of basketball persisted for quite a while actually in
some states I know. Before they finally decided girls could stand a little more
strenuous activity.” 6:57
When I was out of high school I went to work at the American Optical Company as an
optician and there were several women about my age and we rented a junior high gym
and we played boys rules and one night a Catholic Priest came in and he said, ―can I
bring my young boys over to play a game with you?‖ We said, ―sure, come ahead‖, so
they came over a few times. The first night they came we were there practicing and I
said, ―they probably want a basketball‘, so I dribbled to the halfway mark and threw the
ball and it went through the hoop.
Interviewer: “That‟s known as intimidation, that‟s what that is.”
Well, they came a few times and one night we went to play them and here came the priest
by himself and he said the nuns found out they were playing against the girls, so that was
4
�a no, no, but I did join a—we had a group of girls that—I think the Adla Hale Business
College kind of sponsored a team and I played against them some. 8:12
Interviewer: “You continued—were jumping ahead, but we‟ll finish this thought.
You continued in sports after you had played as a professional baseball player for a
year?”
I wasn‘t there a year; I was just there a short time. I read an article in the Hutchinson
News, I was still in high school and Fred Mendel was a sports writer and he said that
Phillip Wrigley was starting this professional women‘s softball team, so I wrote him a
letter and he answered me, Ken Sells was—and said they wouldn‘t have any coaches or
scouts in my area, but they would pay my transportation and that was during the war and
my mother didn‘t want me to ride on the train by myself. 9:09 I wrote him another letter
and they said your mother is welcome to come, but we won‘t pay her expenses, so we got
on the train and went up there and-Interviewer: “Up there being Chicago?”
Yes, to Chicago and we went to the Wrigley Building and Ken Sells interviewed me and
he said, ―well, we‘re going to put you with the Kenosha team and they‘re in Rockford
right now. He said, ―I‘ll be off work at five o‘clock‖, and he took us up to a room that
had a lot of beds and he said, ―you better go to bed and rest‖, and I thought my mother
needed it worse than I did and he said, ―I‘ll come and get you and put you on the train to
Rockford‖, so then we went to Rockford and she met—there was some older man that
was kind of a scout and then she met the coach and the chaperone and she decided that I
was safe, so she went home. 10:10
5
�Interviewer: “I wonder if that older man was Johnny Gottselig, he did a lot and
represented Wrigley in a—it wasn‟t a tight well run organization at first. They
were just putting it together.”
It could have been him and that team coach, manager, was--he said he had been in
Topeka, Kansas and I can‘t—I‘m having a senior moment and I can‘t think of his name
right now, but he didn‘t stay any longer than I did.
Interviewer: “he decided his future wasn‟t managing a women‟s baseball team?”
Well I don‘t think they gave me took much of a tryout. They let me pitch. I went to the
field and they gave me an outfit and shoes and their little dresses and things and I
practiced with them and we went to South Bend, Indiana and played and see, there were
just four teams, and we went to Racine and I think I pitched at Racine, but then I was
there three weeks and they paid me forty dollars while I was there and then they finally—
some young woman, she was older than I, came and they decided they wanted her instead
of me, so they-- 11:42
Interviewer: “You got your release.”
Yes
Interviewer: “How old were you at this point?”
Seventeen
Interviewer: “Seventeen years old.”
I was a roommate of Audrey Wagner. She and I were—she was just a little bit younger
than I, maybe not quite a year.
Interviewer: “When you say roommates, where did you stay?”
6
�We roomed with the Hill family. Mr. Hill had been a circus performer and he had been
in an accident and both of his legs were broken, so they had a house and they rented out
rooms. There was a lady, a corset sales lady, and she took Audrey and I to the picture
show one night and they also took me to a beer joint. It wasn‘t a very good place and I
wasn‘t use to that sort of thing.
Interviewer: “That‟s all part of growing up.”
I got kind of sick, of course Audrey, she was a German and used to drinking beer and it
didn‘t bother her. 12:46
Interviewer: “So that was one of your first introductions to drinking beer?”
Right
Interviewer: “The league is responsible for so many things.”
We sure had a good time. There was a lady from Canada, she was twenty-four years old,
Kay Bennett, and she roomed in the same house and she looked after Audrey and I and
kept us out of trouble.
Interviewer: “Now you said you pitched, had you been playing, like in high school,
on summer teams or anything like that?”
Well, just on summers teams, pitching.
Interviewer: “So you had experience as a pitcher?”
Yes, when I was thirteen years old, I take that back, when I was thirteen years old , still in
grade school, I could run so fast—they had ten players on the softball team at that time
and they had a roving short which played in-between the outfield and the infield and I
covered that whole area. 13:39
Interviewer: “You were what they call the short fielder.”
7
�Yeah, and I covered that whole area because I could run fast.
Interviewer: “That also means you probably could throw pretty well because that‟s
the other job of the short fielder. Cover the ground, get to the ball and in some
cases even throw people out at first if they‟re not hurrying down to the base.”
Correct, and I played every position but catcher.
Interviewer: “Let‟s talk about the game that you got introduced to during that time
that you were part of the All American Girls because it‟s not quite softball. They
were starting to move away a little bit weren‟t they in terms of the length of the
bases?”
I don‘t think so, not when I was there. I think it was what I was used to playing on.
Interviewer: “Ok, ok.”
And the ball was about the same.
Interviewer: “The leadership of league, Wrigley and those around him, grappling
with just what they wanted to present as entertainment and trying to sort out if it
was going to be baseball or softball or how it was going to be distinctive.” 14:58
They were still doing softball. Ms. Harney, she pitched more like I did—they didn‘t do
the ―windmill‖.
Interviewer: “So how did they—if they didn‟t do the “windmill” how did they?”
You just threw it. There at home, my catcher, she‘d take her glove off and she had a
pretty sore hand.
Interviewer: “So even though it was underhand, you weren‟t allowed to come up
and throw sidearm, strictly underhand?”
Well, in the league there they let them throw sidearm I think.
8
�Interviewer: “So can you throw a breaking pitch just drawing back and throwing
like that?”
Well, I had a little bit of stuff on it.
Interviewer: “Ok, ok.”
I know some of them couldn‘t hit it.
Interviewer: “That‟s what matters. 15:50 Well, another way—one more question,
a little bit more about that, is that the best quality softball you ever encountered at
that point, hitting better?”
Yes, they were all good players. Let‘s see, Mary Lou Lester was the short stop, Shirley
Jamison played, Janice O‘Hara was the first baseman, Peewee Westerman was the
catcher, she was younger than I was and he let her—and Helen Nicole from Canada, I
think they pitched her so much that she had a sore arm.
Interviewer: “Which is not a good thing. A sixteen year old catcher, she had to
know what she was doing back there.”
She was good. She‘s no longer living.
Interviewer: “Catchers pretty much run the show when they‟re out there.”
That‘s right.
Interviewer: “That‟s a lot of responsibility for someone that young.” 16:44
Audrey Wagner was a catcher, but they had her in center field. She didn‘t ever pitch
when I was there.
Interviewer: “So you had to be able to play more than one position?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Did you play other positions?”
9
�No, they just had me pitch, that‘s about it.
Interviewer: “Ok, how about the field itself, was it a pretty good place to play?”
Yes, it was a nice field.
Interviewer: “Well groomed?”
Right there in Kenosha, the Hills lived right on the lake, but after I was married we drove
up there and it had all changed. The field that I played on in Kenosha is not there.
Interviewer: “That happens unfortunately.”
Right
Interviewer: “I went back to a field that I once played on and there were forty foot
trees and it wasn‟t that long ago.”
I think they built houses in there now and the parks all gone. We would go down to the
lake and Mr. Hill, he got his lawn chair; he had to watch after us. He said, ―you have to
be careful there‘s maybe glass out there, so watch where you –you know people were
careless. Pauline, what was her name? She was from Chicago, she‘s go out there and get
on that pier and just dive in that cold water. I‘d step in there and my legs would hurt it
was so cold. 18:05
Interviewer: “She was more used to it. How about the fans, did you have good
crowds come out to watch the games?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Did they heckle or people questioning whether it was appropriate
activity for women?”
10
�Yeah, we had a lot. I think we felt, I did anyway, more patriotic at that time, so when we
went out on the field, the first thing we did was march out in a V for victory for the
armed forces, that was more my idea.
Interviewer: “That‟s how you started every game? With the national anthem?”
Yes
Interviewer: “That‟s a good point. You‟re seventeen; to what extent were you
aware that in a way you were part of the war effort. Did you think about that or did
they talk to you about that idea.”
Not so much that, I thought about it, I thought our purpose was to entertain the troops and
the defense workers, that‘s my idea. 19:15
Interviewer: “Did you have any perception at that point that Mr. Wrigley was also
concerned that they were going to cancel regular, not regular, men‟s professional
baseball?”
Oh no, no, no, we were—not to do that.
Interviewer: “That‟s not something he chose to share with all of you.”
No, that wasn‘t my idea. I‘m not a women‘s libber, if that‘s what you want to know.
Interviewer: “Well, that‟s a part of it—yeah, that‟s an interesting question because
those who choose to look back now, see you in that role, those of you who played
professional baseball.”
That wasn‘t my idea.
Interviewer: “Ok, it was just a chance to play ball?”
Yes 20:05
11
�Interviewer: “It takes a certain amount of gumption for a girl in Kansas to just sit
down and write a letter to Mr. Wrigley and say, “I want to come and play baseball
or softball for you”. Did you tell your mother you were sending the letter?”
She knew it.
Interviewer: “Your mother supported you in all of this?”
Yes, my dad, he was a fan of baseball. When we were in grade school the Phillies and
the Athletics came, Connie Mack was there. Vince DiMaggio was in the outfield for one
of the teams and daddy took us to the game and we saw all that.
Interviewer: “After the seasons were over they would often do that and if you lived
in Hutchinson, Kansas that was your chance to see major leaguers.”
Mickey Mantle was from Oklahoma and he played on a Joplin minor farm team and we
had a farm team and I quite often saw him play. He played shortstop. 20:58
Interviewer: “At that point. Did you have an inkling that this was a pretty good
ball player even then, in the case of Mantle?”
Yes, yes we did. 21:06 Bob Swanson was the pitcher for the Hutchinson team and he
said he struck him out.
Interviewer: “Well, he did strike out once in a while.”
A friend of mine, Lauren Arnold, he said he played on the—and he said, ‗I made up my
mind I wasn‘t going to let him get a hit off of me‖, but he said, ―I walked him‖.
Interviewer: “One way to do it. So you‟re time on the team was how long?”
Three weeks
Interviewer: “Three weeks and then they decided they wanted a different pitcher,
what did you do?”
12
�Well, I went into Chicago and I went to a game there, women played, and then I didn‘t
tell my mother I was doing this, I left Chicago and I had an aunt in Jefferson City and I
got on the train and went to Jefferson City. If my daughter would do that I‘d be frantic.
My brother was there, my aunt worked in a bakery there and I didn‘t even know my
aunt‘s address, but I knew the bakery‘s address, so I went there and they happened to be
working. I‘m very adventuresome. 22:21
Interviewer: “so you stayed there for—“
A couple of weeks and then my brother and I got on the train to got home. He had to go
into the service. He was going into the V12 training and so, what‘s this drummer, Gene
Krupa, he was going to put on a show in a Kansas City theater, so we got off the train in
Kansas City and went to that show and it was really fun.
Interviewer: “A little hard to go back to the farm after those experiences?”
Yes
Interviewer: “But you did and---“
We didn‘t live on a farm, we had four acres and we had a milk cow and chickens etc. My
dad helped—it was hard to find jobs and he helped build the first nine holes of Prairie
Dunes golf course. He said he needed a job and they said they were building this golf
course, so he went over there and Claude Morris was the foreman and he said, ―well,
you‘ll have to get you a Social Security Card‖, and it was in 1937 and he said, ―I can do
that‖, and he went to work. 23:35 I was trying to think who the fella that laid out that
course—the Carey family, the Emerson Carey family was big in Hutchinson and they
started Prairie Dunes. You probably heard of it haven‘t you?
Interviewer: “Yes, it‟s a well known course.”
13
�This fellow would come and he‘d drive out there and his big Pontiac car and he‘d say,
―Claude, I‘d like to have one of your men ride around with me, we want to look the sand
hills over‖, and he said, ―ok‖ and he said, ―I‘ll take Ed Barnes‖, and my dad was really
thrilled about that. He got to drive all over.
Interviewer: “Get to consultant on the layout of the course a bit.”
He was the waterman and they watered at night. He worked at night and he‘d walk the
course and the pro lived there above the clubhouse and his wife would come down, she
knew about what time my father would pass the clubhouse, and she would usually meet
him with a cup of coffee and a piece of pie or something. 24:33
Interviewer: “Nice to be appreciated a little bit. Ultimately within a relatively short
period of time, you‟ve gone to Chicago, tried out, very short tryout, been in the
league, you‟re out of the league, you‟re back home. Tell me what came next?”
Well, I had to finish high school.
Interviewer: “It‟s remarkable to me that you young women were doing all that, so
you went back and finished high school?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Did you continue in sports thereafter?”
Just sandlot stuff and I played a lot of basketball.
Interviewer: “Softball?”
Yes, a lot of softball. 25:28 My class, we had intramural sports in high school, and when
I was a freshman we won the basketball and we beat all of them even the seniors and we
won the softball too. I have a little—it has Pepsi-Cola on there and a little softball and
the year and I‘ve kept that.
14
�Interviewer: ―That was your trophy. How about other aspects of your life, you
married at some point?”
Well, after high school, my parents weren‘t wealthy and you had to pay tuition to go to
college, so I went to work at the American Optical Company and we made army glasses.
We put out a hundred pair a day. 26:30
Interviewer: “The army would outfit the soldiers.”
And the families and we would get orders from Fort Sill; see it was in Hutchinson,
American Optical Company. Fort Sill and different ones, Fort Leonard [Wood], I think,
was in Missouri. I worked in the finishing lab and I enjoyed that work.
Interviewer: “You stayed with them?”
I worked until, even for a short time after I was married.
Interviewer. “You married in?”
1947
Interviewer: “1947 and your husband had been in the service? Was he in the
service?”
He went into the service before the war started. He was six years older than me. I didn‘t
know him until after he had come home from the service and that was in 1945.
Interviewer: “Where did he serve?”
He was a fourth class—see they started training pilots in Corpus Christi and he was the
fourth class to go through Corpus Christi and they could choose if they wanted to go into
the navy or the marines and he chose the navy because he thought he‘d have a good bed
and good food. 27:33 They sent him to Alaska and on his way to Alaska, he was to fly
sub patrol--
15
�Interviewer: “They were concerned about submarines.”
The Japs had sent some torpedoes in you know. When he got to the state of Washington
they sent him out on a Coast Guard station and they had two fellas get in a plane and one
fella tied a rope around his waist and he had a bomb here, we weren‘t prepared for war,
and they flew out along the coast and if they saw a sub he was supposed to open that door
and kick the bomb out.
Interviewer: “Bombs away!”
He said it was—those fellas really—it was frightening, it was frightening, but young
fellas don‘t have the fear that the older ones do. 28:33
Interviewer: “Young women obviously don‟t either.”
He said that was really a dangerous duty he had up there because there was so much fog.
You had to fly by instruments because of the fog and also the mountains. You had to
know so you didn‘t crash into a mountain.
Interviewer: “You didn‟t have all of the devices they have on planes now.”
They had seaplanes and he told one story about a pilot and his co-pilot, they went down
and the pilot got—hypothermia sets in and he was gone, but the co-pilot, they were able
to rescue him, so it was dangerous.
Interviewer: “Yes, and all part of the war effort and all contributions in all
different ways. Did he stay in the military then?”
No, after he served eighteen months up there they sent him to—taught him to fly off a
carrier, it was a Jeep Carrier, I don‘t know if you know what that is or not, it was a
smaller carrier and they took tankers and destroyers, they took care of them. 29:55
Interviewer: “Now, they sailed as part of the—“
16
�They went in the south Pacific and he flew a Wildcat, which is a F4 fighter plane, and he
strafed the islands, Guam, Tinian, and I‘ve got his log book, the first flight he ever took,
and strafed those islands before the landing crews went in. They also had torpedo
bombers and there were two on that plane, he was alone. One reunion we went to they
were talking and he said he was chasing this Jap Zero plane and all of a sudden he lost it
and pretty soon the shells began exploding around him and he said, ―I knew that plane
was around there somewhere‖, and he was looking for it and this other fighter pilot said,
―our own ships were shooting at McCoy‖. 30:54
Interviewer: “That‟s kind of discouraging.”
He was in that terrible typhoon and it bent the flight deck down over the bow of the ship,
the weight of the ocean came over, so they had to go into Hawaii. He served nine months
there and they sent him to the south part of—in the desert of California and he was an
instructor and then he flew a Hellcat, which is a F6, it was a little faster plane and he was
an instructor there. He was just lucky to get home, he didn‘t get his discharge though
until 1956.
Interviewer: “He had a long commitment to the military.”
He didn‘t serve any.
Interviewer: The reserve? Some of the reserve?”
Well, he didn‘t—he thought he would get into a—the first year we were married he went
to Kansas City and took a physical, we had a Naval Air Station there in Hutchinson and
they thought they could form a group there and fly. 31:57 They wouldn‘t pay him, so he
said he wasn‘t flying.
17
�Interviewer: “Ok, that makes some sense. Did you continue to live in Hutchinson,
Kansas?”
No, we lived in Partridge; it‘s a little town southwest of Hutchinson.
Interviewer: “Same area though?”
Yes, the same area.
Interviewer: “And it‟s still there?”
Still there and we lived—our road was named McCoy, it was a mile long and on the north
side of the town. We had a quarter section we lived on.
Interviewer: “Did anyone in that area know that you played professional
baseball?”
Yeah, they found out.
Interviewer: “How did they find out?”
Well, I guess I told them and they had a museum there in Hutchinson. 32:45 The way
they found me—the curator of the museum in Hutchinson knew that I had played and
Dottie Key and her husband came to Hutchinson for a big –we had a big showing at the
mall. Jack Banna, he had played, he was a Hutchinson man and he played for the
Dodgers and he won a game in the World Series for the Dodgers and we took our
memorabilia into the mall, so he introduced me to Dottie.
Interviewer: “Now, was this before or after the movie?”
This was after. 1996.
Interviewer: “There was a period of time in there before the movie where not too
many folks knew about the league and the women who had played and you just kind
of went on with the rest of your life, right?”
18
�Right, my nephew lives here in Milwaukee and he read an article in the newspaper in
Milwaukee and he sent me the paper and said, ―Aunt Joyce, those girls you played with,
they‘ve got an association‖, and then I met Dottie Key after that. 34:02 She came from,
they have a big complex out on the west side of Hutchinson where they have tournaments
and teams from all over the country and she came and was a guest there.
Interviewer: “Ok, you saw the movie then and do you have an opinion of the
movie?”
Yes, I saw the movie and it was a movie.
Interviewer: ―Parts of it you like and parts of it you don‘t like?‖
Those girls, they were supposed to be sisters, and they lived on a farm.
Interviewer: “The Weavers?”
I don‘t know who they were, but they had never been on a farm, they didn‘t even know
what a cow looked like. They didn‘t tell that in the movie, but that‘s right.
Interviewer: “A farm girl would know.”
Yes, and we didn‘t have a drunk coach either in our dressing room. 35:02
Interviewer: ―You know, that‟s one aspect of the movie that an awful lot of you
commented on. That was too Hollywood. How about since the movie, people are
aware again of it, how has that affected you?”
Oh, they think I‘m an icon I guess.
Interviewer: “Do you enjoy that?”
Some of it and they asked me to come and throw out a pitch at this complex there and I
never experienced anything like that. The officials, officials of Hutchinson, the Mayor
and some of those were there, so they introduced us and when they introduced me I stood
19
�up and the whole grandstand was alive and yelling and hollering, so I took my hat and
waved at them and then they started in again. All the umpires and things, they took their
hats off and I had to autograph everything. I had my picture taken. 36:10
Interviewer: “Well, overdue recognition I think.”
It was a little bit overdone.
Interviewer: “Well, but it was time to recognize that very unique experience that
you women had during and after WWII. I think that‟s what people were doing,
saying, “we almost forgot and now we‟re glad we didn‟t”.”
Well, I didn‘t really think I was that great.
Interviewer: “Since then have you done other kinds of activities? Speak to groups,
talk to young women who want to be in athletics, any of that sort of thing?”
Well, a young girl in Haven, Kansas was doing a history project on women in baseball
and she got in contact with the league and they said, ―well, the only one we have in
Kansas is Joyce McCoy‖. 37:03 She lived in the little town of Haven, which is about
fifteen miles from me, so she came to see me and we had a good time and she did a good
job and she went to the University of Maryland and then finally she went to the
Smithsonian Institute with her--she just graduated from high school and she‘s in college
this year and she‘s quite a baseball player. My goodness, she can pitch. She can throw
the softball sixty miles an hour and they say that‘s equivalent to ninety miles and hour
with a baseball.
Interviewer: “She‟s pretty close.”
But she does that windmill.
20
�Interviewer: “You do get a little more speed on the ball that way. Do you see
yourself as a roll model?”
No, not really, I play golf and I bowl, I‘m too old to play baseball now. 38:02
Interviewer: “you still stay active in sports? It sounds to me like sports have always
been an important part of your life?”
My granddaughter and grandson were swimmers. My granddaughter was pretty good in
swimming and her times are still in the high school there in Wichita.
Interviewer: “It‟s in the family.”
And then her children—my great grandson is thirteen years old and he‘s a wrestler and a
football player, baseball player and in wrestling he went to the University of Missouri in
Columbia, he lives in Parkville, and he got third in the state and he‘s thirteen years old.
Interviewer: “Now, do they all know that grandma was a ball player too?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Do they like that?”
Christopher, the next little boy, he was only two years old and I was the only one who
could pitch to him right so he could hit the ball. You know they thought he was little and
they would throw the ball and it would go down like this. 39:02 You have to throw it
straight so they can hit it and he‘d hit the ball when he was two years old.
Interviewer: “Grandma‟s still teaching?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Great and thanks for taking time to talk to me. I really appreciate it
and gentlemen you‟ve been sitting here, anything occur to you that we didn‟t cover
that we should cover?
21
�Thank you
Interviewer: “Thank you very much.”
22
�23
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-02
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-58_JBarnes
Title
A name given to the resource
McCoy, Joyce Barnes (Interview transcript and video), 2009
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
McCoy, Joyce Barnes
Description
An account of the resource
Joyce Barnes McCoy was born in on a farm south of Hutchinson, Kansas on October 18, 1925. She played softball with her siblings and then played various sports throughout grade and high schools. One day while still in high school she was reading a Hutchinson News article in which read that Phillip Wrigley was looking for girls to try-out for women's softball teams up in Chicago. After one correspondence—Mr. Wrigley paid Barnes' way to the tryout in Chicago. She started and ended her professional career by playing with the Kenosha Comets in 1943. She played as a pitcher while there.
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Olson, Gordon (Interviewer)
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Baseball players--Wisconsin
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eng
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Text
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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2009-09-27
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Mary Moore
Length of Interview: (36:56)
Date of Interview: August 7, 2010 at the Reunion of the Professional Girls Baseball League
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Lindsey Thatcher, November 18, 2010
Interviewer: “Alright, today is August 7, 2010 we are at Detroit Michigan at the reunion of
the All American Professional Girls Baseball League and talking this morning with Mary
Moore of White Lake Michigan. The interviewer is John Smither of the Grand Valley State
University Veterans History Project. Now Mary what we are going to do here is basically
just follow your story. And we are going to begin at the beginning. So why don’t you tell us
where and when you were born?”
I was born in Detroit Michigan.
Interviewer: “In what year?”
1932. During tough times, the depression era.
Interviewer: “And what did your family do for a living in those days?”
Well my dad was a jewel die maker and well after when we moved out to Lincoln Park Michigan
when I was about 5 or 6 years old, that’s where I actually grew up and graduated, Lincoln Park
High and that was our main resident area. He worked for General Motors, Cadillac division, Ford
Street in Detroit.
(01:10)
Interviewer: “Now how did you get involved in sports initially?”
Well probably like most of the women, I mean well you know, I played out in the fields with the
boys Lincoln park you know, well it wasn’t very populated. There were a lot of fields out there
where we lived at that time. We were like the only house in fact; there was one other house on
the lot on one side of the street and maybe one or two on the other side. So there were a lot of
fields out there and we would take them and cut the weeds down and make our own ball field.
And of course if you get it to the white field we were out and we didn’t have enough players but
it was always something to go out to the field with the boys. I had an older brother that had a
paper route. Detroit News and it was a weekly paper. And so I would help him on his paper route
to earn money. So I was the one who always would come up with bats and balls and the
equipment. So if the boys wanted to play ball or any sport be it football, basketball, they had to
come get me first. So, so I was never left out.
(02:23)
�Interviewer: “Alright were there other girls that would play too, or was it just you?”
No there was hardly, I can’t even remember any girls in the neighborhood basically so, and if
there were they were down the street or quite a ways away, or they just weren’t interested. Most
of them weren’t anyway so.
Interviewer: “Now at your high school were there girls teams and girls sports?”
No, not heavily in high school back then. I graduated in January 1950 and in our senior year
(03:00) we were allowed to take one hour of gym. And then we had to share the basketball court
with the boys and we’d take half the court and they would take the other. But we had no
organized sports at all for the girls.
Interviewer: “So how did you wind up hooking up with the All Americans?”
Well like I said I had been playing ball with the boys there was that and always we had a Detroit
Tigers in Lake who played short stop for the Tigers oh back when he lived about 3 miles from us
and he would come out and play ball with us and he would pick the ball up and I would learn
how to judge fly balls and things like that. And basically teaching the guys but you know I was
watching and doing it too and he would take the students to the Tiger’s stadium to the ball park
and at that point I got a baseball and autographed a little autographed book like Hank Greenburg
(04:00), Dick Wakefield, George Kell, and all those guys back in the late 40’s. So I still have the
autograph book but I did have a fire in my place and I did lose the baseball. And so I mean, you
know I was a great sports fan and but it started in when I graduated from high school oh my high
school English teacher, Mrs. Nelson, put me in touch with another lady who had graduated. I
hadn’t heard anything about it, I mean it wasn’t widely known around you know, especially in
big cities. So she put me in touch with Doris Kneel who was already trying out. So we went
down to Crown Recreation in Detroit. There were a lot of girls from the Detroit Michigan area.
In fact Michigan has more (05:00) girls in the League than any other state. And so that’s where
they would go to practice in the winter time. So I went down there because I needed the practice.
From there one of the girl’s fathers was a scout. And Helen Filarski then took me in down to
South Bend with her for the tryout of the spring of 1950. Jobs were hard to find back then. You
know you graduate from high school and then there was really nothing. I mean I was willing to
sweep floors or do anything but there weren’t jobs out there, kind of like today. And so anyway
Helen took me to South Bend for tryouts. We were there for 2 weeks. And of course I hadn’t
really played anywhere for ball or anything (06:00) but I was you know, quite athletic. And so
after two weeks of spring training, of course they had a second baseman there, I can’t even
remember who it was now. But they sent me down to Chicago for 2 more weeks of training. And
there we had a lot of girls trying out. They picked 15 girls for the Springfield Sallies team and 15
girls for the Chicago Colleens team and…
Interviewer: “We’ll get back to that in just a moment I want to go a little bit back and talk
about the try outs and training. Were you, you went to South Bend. What was the set up
there? What were they trying to do to South Bend when you went there initially?”
�Just I guess, see if I they make the team or how good you were. I guess you know, they invite
people you know that maybe that [?] father might have saw playing ball and they said you know
we need a good player and they say go ahead go and try out you know.
(07:08)
Interviewer: “And what would they have you do when you were trying out?”
Well it’s kind of funny because all these Veterans down in Detroit in Rockville asked, what
position do you play? I said well any place, you know, you know they got, anyplace you want
me to I could play you know out in the scrub games you know I could be taught infield outfield
whatever, well you can’t tell them I can just play anywhere, so they wouldn’t think you were any
good. You got to tell them you play someplace. So they go over to all these Veterans, my friends
and so they say well third base that’s a really hot corner, I said well I don’t know about that.
Shortstop then you would really have to arm and move around; well I don’t know about that.
First base, well you really have to stretch and dig them out of the dirt, better not tell them there.
Outfield you really need a strong arm, and really you know move, well I don’t know about that.
Why don’t you tell them you play second base…so I did. I told them I played second base but I
hadn’t. So I get there and I watch you know, and I thought how hard can this be? Well it was a
lot harder I guess than I thought it was. But anyway I was out there and the manager says (08:30)
“How old are you?” and I said seventeen, “Well then act like it, don’t act like an old lady.
Move!” I thought ok. So but I must have done something fairly decent because like I said they
sent me on to Chicago for two more weeks to make me hit on a different team they didn’t need
me there in South Bend so.
Interviewer: “Now when you went to Chicago how many other women were trying out at
the same time as you were?”
Oh, probably about a hundred.
(09:00)
Interviewer: “And out of that hundred they were going to take…?”
Thirty, two teams. They were going to be a traveling team kind of like the farm hunt system team
and so we had fifteen each team. And we had to make our way on a bus and sat by the
chaperones and managers and so we toured all over the country you know, playing games. We
went to twenty one states and Canada in three months. And we played seventy seven games of
the ninety game schedule we got rained out the rest. And we played Yankee Stadium before a
Yankee game, we met Joe DiMaggio, Casey Stengel, Phil Rizzuto, Whitey Ford, and all those
guys were playing and of course if we had known that now, I mean we’re there to play, we’re in
our uniform. We had nothing to do to get autographs or having no idea how big (10:00) this
thing really was you know. So I mean, we just played our game and then you think about it now
and you think wow, you know. We played on Yankee Stadium. It was quite a thrill. We were
also playing in Washington D.C. Griffins Stadium and all along the way places. We would tour
so after the 1950 season and I got drafted by Battle Creek.
�Interviewer: “Let’s go back again into a little bit and let’s talk a bit more about that barn
storming season there. First of all explain again, you have there are two teams, and the two
teams, tell us who the two teams were?”
Springfield Sallies and Battlecreek Belles.
Interviewer: “Ok.”
Oh no, I’m sorry. Springfield Sallies and Chicago Colleens.
Interviewer: “Right, ok and you were with…?”
I was with Springfield.
(11:01)
Interviewer: “You were with the Sallies, ok.”
In fact my baseball card says Springfield Illinois, instead of Lincoln Park Michigan.
Interviewer: “Well, alright. How did they manage this physically, with moving you around
the country like this? So you’re riding around on a bus, you’ve got your chaperones your
manager with you and so forth, and then what do you do when you go from town to town?
What’s the routine?”
Well most of our games were at night, and so we would play a night game for two hours and
shower and get back on the bus and basically travel to the next town, maybe try to sleep on the
bus. And the day was ours if we didn’t want to try to sleep or catch up on your laundry, and do
something like that. But you know, you would have a lot of time. So when we were in New York
though we were right in the city (12:00) and we were able to go at night, and you know a couple
things like that basically traveling at night, and they were small towns so they didn’t have many
entertainments or anything like that. But most of us were quite young so we really weren’t into
going out or anything like that. We had a, we had to be at the ball park for two or three hours
before the game for the warm-up. You play a 9 inning game and you get done and you are a little
tired. So then we get back on the bus and travel to the next town.
Interviewer: “And did they have any particular rules or regulations regarding your
conduct or your dress or anything else like that?”
Well that was strictly enforced. We could not wear blue jeans, shorts, slacks, or anything out in
public. You had to be in a skirt (13:00) and a dress. If we were on the bus in the middle of the
night and we stopped at a rest area, we could get off, nobody there, but you aren’t allowed off the
bus unless you got a skirt on or a dress so we used wrap around skirts so you just had to hurry up
and put that on then you could get off the bus. They had strictly enforced, well all the rules were
enforced. Like we had bed check every night, if you were caught out after bed check well you
would be fined or sent home. This one girl she didn’t go out after bed check, she went to the
vending machine, and she got caught and she got fined and it was paid. All of that was pretty big
money back then. Well they could’ve sent her home, and if she disobeyed really bad they could
�be sent you home because along the way on this tour (14:00) we were kind of on a farm system
there were try outs at these towns. Now if they found someone that they was doing better than
you, who you got to go home and pick up this other player. So we didn’t want to do anything to
be sent home so we obeyed them. And you know things were different back then anyway. I mean
discipline was pretty much normal for most families. You know, times have changed a lot now
and things have got a lot more lax and federal government won’t let teachers discipline the
students and just all kinds of things that have changed so I mean you know it wasn’t even hard
for us because we were brought up that way.
Interviewer: “Ok, now at this point did they make any effort to teach people how to dress
or do things with their hair and make-up and stuff or was that long gone by then?”
That was gone by the time we started, but we did know the rules and stuff (15:00). You didn’t
disobey that, if you did it would be bye.
Interviewer: “Ok, what as you were touring around these different places, what kind of
response did you get from fans? Did you draw big crowds?”
Oh yeah, we kept up a good attendance. We had a PR man and I’ll give his first name Murray.
He would go he had he would go to these towns and he had newspaper articles and every time
we would get into, we would take turns of being on the radio broadcasts because there was no
TV wasn’t anywheres around yet or it was just starting. So they had good press, and also during
this firestorm tour half the proceeds would go to a local charity at that time. So you know, people
were very supportive, it was something new and different. So they were coming out, because like
I said with gas rationing you can’t go too far (16:02). And so depending on what town it was,
how many people, sometimes two, three thousand sometimes maybe less. But we had fans and
they were very appreciative of grand ball we played.
Interviewer: “And what about when you played in Washington or New York Stadiums?
Was it, before a game; was there a crowd there already?
Yeah there was quite a few yeah, that was a big deal. Yeah that was before the Yankee games
there was a lot of people coming in. I don’t know if it was if they knew about the game. I’m sure
they must have but it was a lot of people.
Interviewer: “Alright, so you kind of go and you do that for three months. With fifteen
players on the team you are playing most of the games right?”
Oh yeah, about every game.
Interviewer: “Alright, how did you turn out as a second baseman?”
(16:59)
I guess very decent. I was involved in a lot of double plays and the first year I led my team in
almost every category, hits, runs, RBIs [?], home bases. I was involved in a triple play and I got
it unusually, there was no force outs, they were all tag players. And there was two girls on, the
�first and second a girl would bat hit the ball out to the outfield, a base hit, the girl on second
tried to score, well they threw the ball on then and run her down and tag her out. Well meanwhile
the girl on first rounded second going on towards third. Well when they got the other girl tagged
out they started to run her back and the girl that hit the ball she was heading towards second so I
was standing on second as they both came to second I just pop pop and one side and the other
and they were all out. So…
(18:01)
Interviewer: “Alright, well that’s pretty good. Ok, so if you were leading your team and
hitting double bases, were you stealing bases yourself?”
Oh yeah, yeah I had quite a few stolen bases.
Interviewer: “Ok, had you known anything about base stealing before you had joined the
league?”
No, not really. Just watching the major leagues and stuff like that so…
Interviewer: “Ok, were there particular tricks to it that you could use or could you read
certain pitchers or…?”
Well yeah. It depended on who was pitching, how slow they were, or what their rules were you
know…
Interviewer: “How many pitchers would a barnstorming team have?”
Let’s see, maybe about six I guess. I don’t know.
Interviewer: “Ok, so if you are always playing the same team than you probably learned
those pitchers pretty well?”
(18:56)
Well yeah, we had bets back and forth. If I get ahead of you tonight, you owe me a milkshake.
You strike me out, ok I’ll owe you one.
Interviewer: “Alright, of the people you were traveling around with are there some they
you became particularly good friends with, or just stand out in your mind as being really
distinctive characters or really good players?”
Yeah there was, there was several. There was a lot of them that were international, we had
Cubans, we had a few from Canada, and all over the states so. But we had a lot of good players,
too many to mention.
Interviewer: “Ok. Alright, so you get through that first season. What happens when that
season comes to an end?”
�Well you go home and you look for a job for the season, which again wasn’t really easy to find
but I had a high school girlfriend that was working in a small (20:00) automobile shop so they
happened to need some work so I got a job there, I sort of wish I hadn’t but it was work you
know. And, but towards the 1951 season started, January 30, 1951 I had a puncture accident. I
kind of messed my hand up a little bit, making Packard rings. You dart on and I kind of just
jerked it back at me and I got in the way and it got all my fingers. I didn’t get them all but it
messed up the others too. So that was in January and I did go to spring training in ’51. Which
they ended up not taking me, they didn’t want to be responsible. You can’t reach the ball with
your glove you kind of automatically reach with your bare hand (21:00) and they were afraid that
if I line drived or something like that that I would get my hand torn open again, it was still pretty
tender. I went to therapy like 3, 4 times a week just to be able to go to spring training. The doctor
said that most people would still be kind of carrying their hand in a sling, and I said, well I have
to play ball. But any way they did call me up towards the end of the season. They had other
injuries and of course my hand was a little better. So I went back and played a few games in ’51.
Interviewer: “And who did you play for?”
Battle Creek. Battle Creek drafted me after the 1950 season. I played second base there also. So
anyway that as in ’52, after leaving my team in 1950 it’s a little bit more difficult now and the
ball, to throw the ball and to grip a bat when some of the muscles don’t work. So I wasn’t feeling
as well, but I did go back in ’52. I played. Two weeks before the end of the season I was sliding
into second, Fort Wayne, twisted my ankle and Joe Fox [?] my manager carried me off the field.
So I was done for the ’52 season. So in ’53 when I got the call back I just didn’t go back. I got
another job. So then I was disappointed in myself because I knew how well I played the first year
and now I’m not batting any good, I guess fielding was ok but bat hand was suffering, and I
figured that really I was just keeping somebody else from playing and they should have a chance
(23:00) and of course not knowing it was the end of 1954 anyway it was the end of the season.
So after that you’re supposed to sit out five years before you go back to amateur softball after
playing in the professionals. But because of my injury one of the softball teams got my reinstated
after two years so I was able to go back and play fast pitch in softball.
Interviewer: “Did you go back to Lincoln Park for that or did you go somewhere else?”
Well Lincoln Park for, well you know I went back home and lived for a while, but I played all
over Michigan practically. Over eight or ten different teams throughout the year so we won a
state class A championship one year, and class B one year, class C. So then I played softball,
now softball I played whatever position, whatever they wanted, catching or outfield or infield.
Wherever they gave me I would play so.
(24:09)
Interviewer: “Now when you were playing softball on these teams, did people know that
you had played professional baseball?”
Probably not. I mean you know it wasn’t a well known thing. Even at work I didn’t really tell
them that I had played ball, that’s not true everybody played ball. So when the movie came out
�they asked why didn’t you tell us? I says because I did tell you, you just weren’t listening. But
that was my quite experience.
Interviewer: “Now after you left the league, did you stay in touch with any of the players or
any of the friends you had made?”
Oh yeah, yeah, I had a real good friend Jo (Joanne) McComb from Pennsylvania. And we visited
back in forth (25:00) for oh years. You know I would go there and she would come to my house
and meet my folks and meet her folks, stay in touch, and stay in touch with a lot of the others.
But not quite as close as that.
Interviewer: “Now as the League’s, the former players began to get there together and
create a players association, this kind of stuff before the Penny Marshall movie came out,
were you connected with that? Were you involved in any reunions or anything like that?”
Oh yeah, there was you know the first one. There was probably maybe two that I’ve might’ve
missed all through the years and that was probably because I was taking care of my father, so but
like I said all but probably two.
Interviewer: “And did you, were you involved with any of the things that are around,
connected with the movie?”
(25:57)
Yeah we went to Smokey Illinois for 1991 for try outs about sixty some were there and it was
about forty three, forty five went out of Cooperstown for the filming of the movie and so I was
there. We had a fan for the other movie, we’d stop and take a picture and walk in the hall of
fame. To give credit when we were at our reunion game I was the one that slid it home. Shirley
Burkovich was trying to tag me out but I was safe and she was a little mad but then I was playing
left field at one point and I had to help out on a rundown play between second and third, they
didn’t throw me the ball but I was running back and forth and when they zoomed on the bench I
was the first one that they zoomed in on and hand out players. We were there in Cooperstown for
eleven days for that five minutes at the end. So we know and appreciate why movies cost so
much putting us all up and everything like that, for that five minutes.
(27:10)
Interviewer: “Ok, you mentioned going to Smokey for try outs. Now you were already a
player, who was trying out there?”
Well, they wanted someone that was active enough and in good enough health to be able to do
some of these things and we were kind of like helping the actresses you know showing them
trying to show them how to throw the ball, how to catch the ball, throw it and things like that. So
when they said they didn’t want somebody they couldn’t move them around.
Interviewer: “And how did that go? How well did the actresses learn the job?”
�Well some of them, pretty well. I mean a couple of them were already pretty athletic. Betty and
Rosy O’Donnell (28:01). Madonna, she needed a little more work and some of the others. She
had her little dance steps kind of tone and all but they said she was one of the hardest working
ones and she got banged up and got hit the head with the ball, she was batting and different
things like that. And so she, I think, personal opinion as long as she wasn’t the star in the movie
she was ok. And we were a little apprehensive when we found out she was going to be in the
movie and Penny Marshall assured us that she would do good and it would be ok. Debra Winger
was actually supposed to play the part of Geena Davis and we don’t know why Debra Winger
backed out. We heard rumors that it was because Madonna was going to be in it. But you know
that was just a rumor, who knows? Could have been just a conflict with her schedule, it was a
great movie (29:04).
Interviewer: “Were you happy how the movie came out?”
Yeah I figured it was probably about 85% accurate. There was you know some Hollywood in
there you know, we certainly didn’t treat the chaperones like that poor lady and managers didn’t
come drunk or you know into the dressing room unless everyone was fully dressed and there
were allowed to come in or we would go out there so, but that was they had to make it funny and
that it was. But Penny Marshall, she was great and so were the actresses. Some of them actually
come to our reunions out there in California. There were about five of them last night we were
out in California so it’s really, it’s really nice.
Interviewer: “Kind of an unusual thing for a movie. Most movies don’t have that, quite
that amount of standing power or effect on things.”
(30:03)
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Now also, as you started to go into the reunions you got involved in actually
recording short interviews with the other players. Tell me a little bit about that.”
Well I always had my camera with me and I snapped pictures so the association asked if I would
be willing to I guess the board had talked about you know to start to preserve history. And they
asked me if I could do a few interviews and I was like “Yeah I always have my camera with
me”. So I started doing about 5 to 8 interview of all the ladies, and I’ve got about 184 of them
done now. They are about 5 to 8 minutes kind of, you know not as lengthy as we are doing here
but about how we got started, who they played for, their managers, the chaperones, and kind of
what they’ve done since and things like that. The short version maybe of the what’s going on
now.
(31:07)
Interviewer: “Sure. But it’s also very valuable because you got started a lot earlier before
we or other people did, so you’ve got stories of people that aren’t recorded anywhere else.”
Yeah because a lot of them are gone now. I do have short interviews and sorts. 31:22
�Interviewer: “And as we move forward with this project we will track down physically
where they are located and that information will go up on our website and so our project
here, but basically so we’ll make sure that people if they find us can also locate where those
are because they are going want to see as much as they can certainly. So alright…
Well if they can’t, I mean I’ve got copies of them. Of course they are on VHS and I’m not sure,
the longer I’m there they will deteriorate but…
Interviewer: “We’ll make sure that all that is digitized by somebody so we’ll still have it
certainly. Now as you look over your time while you were actually playing what do you
think the effect of that experience was on you? What did you take out of it or learn from it
they stayed with you?”
(32:07)
Well a lot of it would be like friendships I made. And you know it taught you to not be not be
afraid to be out in public, playing in front of 2,000 people who aren’t bashful and people. Of
course the discipline was always there but that always helps too. And just…almost everything
you know. Without that I don’t know where half of us would have been. It gave us the
opportunity to be able to go on to school, a lot of them did. I never did, my parents couldn’t
afford it so I wasn’t able to attend or continue but there are others that really had beautiful
opportunities to be doctors and teachers. It was a wonderful experience and you can’t even put
into words.
(33:09)
Interviewer: “What did you end up doing? Did you have a particular career? Or did you
just do different jobs?”
Well I worked at the Michigan Bell for 35 years. I was central office supervisor. And that was
inside the central office where the wiring and everything, way back before all this technology.
Ladders about two stories high and we would be running wires about a block long and dragging
them inside, there was a guy connecting them outside people’s houses soldering and having a
tool pouch on I was the supervisor of the ladies who did that so…
Interviewer: “Did it help you just to go out there and be a supervisor having worked with a
lot of people?”
Yeah I think so yeah. Just being out there I mean being on a ball field on a base is kind of like
directing traffic half the time you know and you just kind of take charge a little bit you know, I
mean play towards the outfield, you call a play and tell them where to throw the ball and this and
that, you are just kind of out there taking charge. Yeah so I believed that helped a lot.
(34:22)
Interviewer: “Alright, now you played a lot of softball. Did you do any coaching at any
time?”
�Yeah I did I coached a couple times the Wyandottes, some younger girls. And I coached one of
our teams that had a well class C I think championship and after that I kind just played so…
Interviewer: “Alright, and did you kind of follow the growth of women’s sports? Title IX?
Just adding more teams and things in the ’70’s and ‘80’s?”
(34:58)
Yeah I did quite a bit. In fact I played been playing slow pitch up until this year up in Warfield. I
was their pitcher and I kept telling my young kids as long as I can catch it or dodge it, I’ll play it.
But this year I was so busy with our reunion and fundraising and going to meetings and this and
that of course I still bowl and golf, I just really didn’t have time to play ball this year so. The
first year I haven’t played.
Interviewer: “Alright, now back to when you were actually playing. Did you think of the
league being this pioneering or significant or was it just playing ball?”
You know, it was just playing ball at first but I mean when everything else comes out the movie
and everything people keep telling you, you know thank you for this and that you know, then it
kind of registers. But originally I was doing what I loved to do (36:00) and you were getting
paid for it like a job so that didn’t really register until things just kept getting bigger and bigger
and getting fan mail from all over the country, kids and not just kids adults you know. Veterans
and stuff like that write wanting autographs, it’s just…it’s just awesome, it’s amazing. It just
blows my mind that people are still so interested in wanting all this stuff, our autographs and
pictures I just think it’s great. I just hope it never dies.
Interviewer: “Well we are doing our best to make sure that it doesn’t. Alright, you actually
got a good story and have done a good job telling it to us. Thanks for coming in and talking
to us today.”
Thank you. 36:47
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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RHC-58_MMoore0575BB
Title
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Moore, Mary (Interview transcript and video), 2010
Creator
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Moore, Mary
Description
An account of the resource
Mary Moore was born in 1932 and grew up outside of Detroit, Michigan. She played ball with the boys in vacant lots in her neighborhood growing up, and met some of the Detroit Tiger players who lived in the area. She was recruited into the AAGPBL in 1950, and played second base that season for the Springfield Sallies barnstorming team. Their season included games played at Griffith Stadium in Washington, D.C., and at Yankee Stadium. She was drafted by the Battle Creek Belles for the 1951 season, but an offseason injury kept her from playing that year. She returned to the league in 1952, only to have another injury cut short her playing career. After baseball, she worked for Michigan Bell for 35 years and continued to play and coach softball. When the league began holding reunions, she recorded short video interviews with 184 former players, coaches and chaperones, which are now archived with the league's collection in South Bend, Indiana.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Language
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2010-08-07
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1f39d09c91fda9f7464146ea7fdab897.m4v
62854e5bedda8fad4df04af09e117c0b
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/78cb98fbfdcff1b0ff86220ecc9f606c.pdf
556289ff7ac13bbaf15ff349a4947d5c
PDF Text
Text
O’Dowd, Annie
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Annie O’Dowd
Length of Interview: (41:09)
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Chelsea Chandler
Interviewer: “Okay, now start us out with some background on yourself, and to begin with,
where and when were you born?”
Okay, I was born in Chicago in 1929, which is ages ago.
Interviewer: “Sure, it was. Now did you grow up in Chicago, or did you move around?”
I grew up in Chicago and moved out, well, when I started playing ball.
Interviewer: “Okay. What neighborhood of Chicago were you living in?”
I was on the south side of Chicago.
Interviewer: “Okay, that’s still a pretty big area. Is there a particular neighborhood within
that that had a name that you remember?”
I don’t remember the name, but it was around 59th and Kedzie.
Interviewer: “Okay, so it’s not all the way west of Hyde Park and places like that.”
Oh, yes, west of Hyde Park. Kedzie was 3200, I think. West.
Interviewer: “Okay, so it’s kind of southwest side of the city.”
Right. (1:06)
Interviewer: “All right, and what did your family do for a living when you were growing
up?”
Well, my dad was the only one that worked. Mom stayed home. He was a driver for the Chicago
Tribune, and that was all the income we had until I started playing ball. And then I got my
paychecks playing ball. I sent them right home to Mom.
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�O’Dowd, Annie
Interviewer: “Okay. How did you learn how to play baseball?”
Well, my brother was fairly athletic, and we used to, you know, throw the ball back and forth,
back and forth. And we’d run up and down the street, and of course I played with all the boys on
the street. And that’s how I learned to play ball.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did the boys just let you do all the same things they did, or did
they make you only do certain things?”
Well, I was kind of the boss. Whether they liked it or not, I really don’t know, but I was kind of
the leader of our street, which was Troy Street, Chicago. (2:11) And I became kind of a leader
when I played professional ball.
Interviewer: “Okay, now you’re growing up, you’re playing in the street...Now were there
organized sports for girls in the schools or churches or parks?”
Well, when I was growing up, there wasn’t any organized ballplaying. You’d go to the park and
play and play in those games, but there wasn’t any really organized ballplaying.
Interviewer: “Okay, now there were kind of semi-pro softball teams. There were teams
that women played on in Chicago in that period.”
Yes, there were. The Chicago Bloomer Girls and the Bluebirds, I think, and I don’t know. Can’t
remember the name of the other teams that they had there, but I did go to some of the ball games,
and they had—I don’t know. A team like bigger, bigger women than we were. I remember the
Savona Sisters, and they were big and broad and tall and heavy. I mean, they were heavy. They
were sturdy women. And yeah, I used to go to watch them play.
Interviewer: “Okay, now you’re growing up in the period of the Depression and World
War II. Do you know if your father had sort of steady work through the ‘30s?”
Oh, yes, he had steady work, and I remember getting food stamps during the wartime for sugar
and meats.
Interviewer: “Oh, yeah, because you had the ration cards and all of that.”
Right, right, right. I remember going to the butcher store, you know, handing over my little
tickets.
2
�O’Dowd, Annie
Interviewer: “Right. Okay, now did you finish high school?”
Oh, yes.
Interviewer: “And what year did you graduate?”
Oh, 1947.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what did you do after you graduated?” (4:11)
After I graduated, a friend of mine—You know, we’re looking for jobs, and we weren’t skilled at
anything that would be—take place in an office. So we had to work in a factory. Worked in a
box factory, which was—It was pretty hard work, but that’s what I did for how many years.
Don’t remember that, but then I did get a job in an office for Campbell’s Soup.
Interviewer: “Okay, so how did you wind up becoming a professional baseball player?”
Well, I read in the paper that there were tryouts at this Marquette Park, which I lived probably a
mile, and so I thought, “I think I’ll go over and try out.” I wanted to be a first baseman, but the
gentleman that was running the tryouts said, “I think you have the stature of being a catcher.” So
I became a catcher, which I loved.
Interviewer: “Okay, now had you played catcher periodically?”
Oh, no, never. Never in my life.
Interviewer: “Okay, now had you continued to play those pickup games even after high
school? So were you still actively playing at the time you tried out?”
Oh, sure. With the boys.
Interviewer: “Okay, so that was going on even though you’re getting to be close to twenty
years old. But there’s still people out there playing.”
Right, right.
Interviewer: “Okay, and your preferred position was first base.”
That’s what I wanted to be. Yeah, first baseman.
3
�O’Dowd, Annie
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you have some experience in other positions?”
No, none. None at all.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you never played outfield, or…?” (6:05)
No, you played wherever you needed to be, and that’s the position I would play.
Interviewer: “Okay, so why did you like first base?”
It was full of action, and I wanted to be in on everything. But being a catcher, you’re in on
everything. Everything, everything.
Interviewer: “Yeah, now you’re calling the game.”
Right, and you’re in charge. I guess I like being in charge.
Interviewer: “All right, so the scout there or whatever—the person running this—they’ve
seen that. Unless it was just exactly how tall you were or something, and said, ‘Oh, you
should be a catcher.’”
Yes, because I had that sturdy build. I was a little heavier than I am now, and he looked at me
and said, “Oh, no, you’re going to be a catcher.” So then I was.
Interviewer: “Okay, now when you went to this tryout, about how many women do you
think were there?”
Good question. I would say between twenty-five and fifty.
Interviewer: “Okay, so a reasonable number of people. Now were a lot of them softball
players, or do you not know?”
Probably all of us were softball players.
Interviewer: “Okay, so were you playing softball, too?”
Oh, yes.
Interviewer: “Okay, and was that still just the unorganized games?”
4
�O’Dowd, Annie
Right, unorganized games.
Interviewer: “All right, but when you were playing with the guys, were you sometimes
playing baseball rather than softball?”
No, mostly softball.
Interviewer: “Okay, so your experience is in softball, but—So when you were actually
trying out for the baseball, were they using now regulation sized baseballs, or was the
league all the way there yet, or…?”
No, the size of the ball was ten inches when I played, and you get used to playing with whatever
size it is. (8:02)
Interviewer: “Sure, because I think a standard baseball is nine inches, but softball in
Chicago was as big as sixteen.”
Oh, yes, and that was Chicago ball. They called it Chicago ball, which was what my brother
played on, and he was very good. But that was a great game, Chicago ball.
Interviewer: “Yep. All right, so this is spring of ‘49 now that you’re trying out?”
Mm-hmm.
Interviewer: “Okay, and do they tell you right away that they’re taking you, or do you have
to wait?”
I think they said I made the team, and I was very excited and went home and told my parents.
And I waited until whatever was coming next.
Interviewer: “So what does come next?”
Well, next they said, “We’re going to go to spring training.” And I can’t remember exactly
where that was, but I had to go away. It was out of town.
Interviewer: “Did you go south for spring training?”
It wasn’t very, very far away. I believe it was south.
Interviewer: “But it wasn’t like North Carolina or Florida or some place like that.”
5
�O’Dowd, Annie
No, no, no. No, no, no.
Interviewer: “Okay. Well, that’s the kind of thing that gets looked up because it did move
around quite a bit, and it was done different ways in different years.”
Yes, right. I never got—When I saw the film, there were a lot of ballplayers. Everybody was in
one place. When I went to spring training, it wasn’t that way. There were, you know, just a
couple of teams.
Interviewer: “Okay, so what team were you assigned to, or did you not have a team yet?”
Well, when I first started, it was the traveling team, and I was on the Chicago Colleens.
Interviewer: “Okay, now explain a little bit what the traveling teams were.”
Oh, that was so much fun. It was really a lot of fun. You get in the bus, and you go to your
destination. And we traveled to twenty-seven states in all, but it was fun riding the bus. (10:10)
You’d sing and try to sleep and stop to go to the bathroom, and it was just a load of fun.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what was the purpose of these teams? Because these are not the
regular league teams.”
No, this was like a—What do they call it in real baseball?
Interviewer: “Minor League?”
Minor League. Thank you. Minor League, and, you know, you just play ball, and when they
thought you were good enough, they’d send you up to the big leagues.
Interviewer: “All right, because you had to kind of make the transition to playing,
essentially, baseball rather than softball. Now were you older than a lot of the other players
on those traveling teams?”
Maybe a year or two.
Interviewer: “Okay, because some of them talk about joining when they’re in their midteens.”
Oh, no, I wasn’t that young.
6
�O’Dowd, Annie
Interviewer: “Yeah, but some of them, you know, may have been. Okay, but you didn’t feel
like you were a whole bunch older than they were.”
Oh, no, not at all.
Interviewer: “All right, now you’d go to a particular town on this tour, and then what
happens?”
Well, they put us up in a hotel. You’d go to your room, and then they’d tell you what time we
were going to play ball the next day, and we would prepare for that. And the rest of it was, you
know, do what you want, but you have to be back in your room by such and such time because,
you know, there was a curfew.
Interviewer: “Right, yeah. Now the league is sort of famous for having a lot of rules and
regulations to govern what the player did, so which of those rules were still in place when
you joined?”
Well, the rules were you had to be in your room by such and such time. You could never wear
slacks or anything. You always had to be in a skirt, which was not much fun, because today’s
day and age, everybody wears long pants. (12:07) And the skirts were pretty hard to play in
because, you know, you would get slide, and you would get strawberries, and that wasn’t any
fun. But if your arm was sore or anything, the chaperone would come and give you a nice
rubdown. And there were times when you didn’t have a sore arm, but you still wanted a
rubdown, and that was the good part.
Interviewer: “And then were there rules about—Did you have to wear makeup when you
were out in public or that kind of thing?”
Well, we didn’t have to wear makeup, but we had to be ladylike, and I did go to charm school.
Interviewer: “I thought that the charm school had ended. It goes out at some point, but
now were they doing the charm school when you were doing spring training, or…?”
Yes, they had charm school when it was spring training. And yeah, you had to walk around with
the book on top of your head. You had to learn to sit like a lady and walk like a lady. It was very
good for you. Yeah.
Interviewer: “All right, now did you have any troubles transitioning from softball to
baseball, or was that easy?”
7
�O’Dowd, Annie
Well, at that age it would be easy. Yeah, you didn’t even think about it. You just did it. It came
automatically, really.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what about learning to play catcher?”
Well, that was something altogether new to me, and it wasn’t easy. The hardest part was keeping
your eyes open when a bat was coming into sight. You know, you’d go like this, and if they
popped it up, you didn’t know where the ball was. So you learned how to keep your eyes open.
(14:01)
Interviewer: “Okay, now did they have you calling pitches, or…?”
Oh, yes. There weren’t that many pitches as there are today, but there were some.
Interviewer: “Well, what would pitchers normally throw?”
Fastballs. Normally they would throw fastballs. They would throw curves.
Interviewer: “So at that level, it was—Normally they would just throw fastballs, and then
would you call for location, or…?”
Oh, yes, you’d call for location. And they did have curveballs and changeups and knuckleballs,
but there weren’t any sliders or those types. We didn’t have that.
Interviewer: “Okay, and was there more variety of pitches when you actually got to play
with the regular teams? Did you now have pitchers who could do more things?”
No, I don’t think so. I think it was what you learned at spring training is what you brought to the
big leagues.
Interviewer: “Okay, now how long did you stay with the traveling team? Was it a full
season?”
Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Yeah, that was a full season, which the seasons weren’t that long.
Interviewer: “And what part of the country were you traveling around in?”
Mostly Midwest and east. Oh, we’d go south, too. We were in South Carolina, and east, we were
in New York, and then the Midwest. (16:03)
8
�O’Dowd, Annie
Interviewer: “Okay, and what kind of audiences did you attract?”
Oh, there were good, good audiences. There were—I don’t know. I would say maybe five
thousand people per game.
Interviewer: “Which is pretty good even today for a lot of Minor League teams, so...Okay,
and you were getting that back then. All right, and did you get local press coverage at all?
Did you ever get interviewed?”
Yes. No, I didn’t get interviewed, but they did take a lot of pictures. And I was on one of the
brochures that they’d put up for a game, and that was nice.
Interviewer: “All right, now when you’re thinking about the time that you spent with the
traveling team, are there any particular memories or things that stand out for you?”
On the traveling team? For myself?
Interviewer: “Yeah.”
Yes, there was one day I was playing, and it was very hot. And it was a doubleheader, and I had
to catch both games. And somebody hit a popup, and I went for it. And I lost it in the sun, and
the ball came right down on my eye. And I had a big shiner, but I continued to play.
Interviewer: “Yeah, they might have taken you out today, but you stayed in.”
No concussion.
Interviewer: “Okay, that’s good anyway. All right, so you did one season essentially with
the traveling team.”
You would say that, maybe. I think maybe a year and a half.
Interviewer: “Okay, because we have your dates recorded as sort of ‘49 through ‘51. That
includes the time with the traveling teams?”
Yes. (18:08)
Interviewer: “Okay, so what were they paying you at that point? Do you remember?”
9
�O’Dowd, Annie
It was...God, I can’t remember these things. I think I got a salary of $105 a week, and traveling
money...Oh my god. Three dollars a day for food. And I thought, “Three dollars a day for food?
That’s a lot of money.”
Interviewer: “What would that buy?”
Oh, you could go to a restaurant—twenty-five cents for a hamburger, five cents for a Coke—and
it was cheap back then.
Interviewer: “Okay, now eventually you go to the big leagues, basically, and what team did
you play for first?”
The Rockford Peaches.
Interviewer: “Okay, and when you got there, were you a reserved player, or did you start
catching right away?”
No, I was second string—reserved—because I was a rookie. And I didn’t like sitting on the
bench. For sure. But, you know, I did my sitting out and finally got to catch on a regular basis.
Interviewer: “Okay, now who was pitching for that team at that time?”
Oh, too hard of a question.
Interviewer: “All right. How was life different when you’re playing on one of the regular
teams than it was on the traveling team?”
Well, actually the traveling team was more fun, and we were closer together. And when I went
up to the big leagues as they call it, I didn’t really know anyone. (20:03) So it’s kind of hard.
Interviewer: “And what kind of living situation did you have?”
They arranged for us to stay in people’s homes, and so we had, you know, our own little
bedroom and bathroom, which was very nice.
Interviewer: “Now were there other women from your team staying at the same place you
were, or…?”
No, I was the only one.
10
�O’Dowd, Annie
Interviewer: “Okay, and what was the family like that you were staying with?”
Oh, they were as sweet as can be, you know. “Everything okay?” “Oh, yeah, everything is fine.
Thank you.” And they didn’t bother you if you didn’t want to be bothered, but they were very
sweet.
Interviewer: “Okay, and so did they live close to the ballpark, or could you walk there, or
did you have some other way to get there?”
You know what? I don’t recall. I don’t recall that. I probably walked there.
Interviewer: “All right, and do you have a sense of how well the team was playing? I mean,
do they have a winning record while you’re with them, or…?”
Too hard of a question.
Interviewer: “Okay, now when you had to go and play road games, how would you get
there?”
On a bus that they got. Everywhere we traveled it was on a bus.
Interviewer: “And how long were those bus rides?”
Oh, sometimes they were very long. Eight hours, ten hours. Yeah, they were—But not in the big
leagues because all the teams were in the Midwest, so that didn’t take long at all.
Interviewer: “Okay. Well, Rockford to Grand Rapids at that point might have been four
hours or something like that.”
Right. Yeah, that was probably one of the longest rides.
Interviewer: “Okay, and at that point—Do you remember some of the places you played? I
mean, there was Grand Rapids…”
Oh, yeah. Muskegon. (22:01) Racine.
Interviewer: “I guess Fort Wayne and South Bend, maybe.”
Oh, yeah, Fort Wayne, South Bend. You know, the memory button’s not too good anymore.
11
�O’Dowd, Annie
Interviewer: “Okay, now were you a good defensive catcher?”
I thought I was. I don’t know what the team thought, but I thought I was good at it.
Interviewer: “Okay, well, one of the things the league is famous for is having women steal
bases. It was one of the first things that separated you from women’s softball. So could you
throw runners out?”
Oh, yes. I would catch them leaning on first base and get them out.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you do pick off a thrower first.”
Right, and one of the things I used to do is I’d look at the pitcher and throw to first base. And
that’s the way I caught them off base.
Interviewer: “Okay, and did you have much success throwing them out at second?”
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I had a fairly good arm.
Interviewer: “Okay, now in the league, did the baserunners—Did they have a sense of who
the good catchers were?”
Oh, I think so.
Interviewer: “So they were a little more careful about who they would run on.”
I would think so. Yes.
Interviewer: “Okay, and were you a good hitter?”
You know, I was a fair hitter. I don’t like to say I was excellent. I was decent.
Interviewer: “Okay. Do you remember what your batting average was overall, or…?”
Well, overall I think I was around 270.
Interviewer: “Okay. And even today that’s pretty good for a catcher.”
12
�O’Dowd, Annie
Yes. It’s not on the back of the card, though, that I hit that well. But it seemed to me I was
always in cleanup, and I don’t think cleanup hitters are, you know, 240, 250. And on the back of
the baseball card that’s what it was, and I know I was a better hitter than that. (24:08)
Interviewer: “Well, some kind of hitters are power hitters. Did people hit a lot of home
runs in that league, or were there not very many?”
Some of the women, yes. There were some very, very good hitters that hit home runs. I was not a
home run hitter. I was kind of line drives—left, center, and right—and I could hit to any field. I
feel like I’m bragging about myself.
Interviewer: “No, no. Our problem in doing these interviews is that people don’t want to
say enough about themselves. They’re too modest. But we want to know this stuff. All right,
now catchers are supposed to be slow.”
Oh, and I was slow.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you’ve got that one down.”
I was as slow as a catcher usually is.
Interviewer: “Now would you steal some bases anyway?”
No, I was never a base stealer. I’d run as hard as I could, but I wasn’t a base stealer.
Interviewer: “All right, now you started out playing for Rockford. And did you start
playing catcher regularly for them, or did you do that at other teams later?”
As I said before, I was on the bench when I first came out, but then to be a regular later.
Interviewer: “But you were a regular for Rockford for a while?”
Maybe the last part. The last month I was there.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you play a full season for Rockford, or did they trade you
somewhere else?”
No, I think I played a half a season for Rockford, and then they so-called traded me to Racine,
and there I became first string.
13
�O’Dowd, Annie
Interviewer: “Okay, and that all may have been designed. The league, I think, assigned
people. They tried to get them…”
Right. They wanted the teams to be even, and that’s why you got traded more than once.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you have pretty much the same experience in Racine as in
Rockford, or did you like it better there, or…?” (26:15)
It was about the same. I got to know a few of those players a little bit, Sophie Kurys being one.
The base stealer of all times. Yeah, I got to know her a little bit then. That was nice. She was a
nice lady.
Interviewer: “All right, now how long did you stay with Racine?”
Oh, you ask these hard questions all the time.
Interviewer: “Well, was it sort of the rest of one season and then on somewhere else, or…?”
I probably played there for a season, and, as I said, I don’t remember. I think it was Kalamazoo,
but I’m not sure about that.
Interviewer: “Okay, but the last team you played for was the Lassies regardless of where
you were.”
Right, right, and then I thought, “Well, I better stop having all this fun and get a real job.” So I
stopped playing ball and got a real job.
Interviewer: “Okay. I mean, it was a real job in the sense that it paid pretty well.”
Right. I don’t think it paid as well as playing ball, though.
Interviewer: “Well, no. That’s actually what I was saying. So why wasn’t playing ball a
real job?”
It was too much fun. I mean, it wasn’t like a job at all. I mean, it was just fun. Fun, fun, fun.
Interviewer: “Okay, now while you were playing—this was kind of through ‘51—were the
teams still getting good attendance?”
14
�O’Dowd, Annie
Yes, they were. You know, I couldn’t tell you what the attendance was, but there were a lot of
people out there.
Interviewer: “Okay, but you didn’t have a sense yourself that the league was in trouble,
or…?”
No, not at all. No sense of that whatsoever. (28:03)
Interviewer: “Okay, so for you...was maybe just going and getting maybe a grown-up job,
or…?”
Well, I thought it was a grown-up job where you had to get up at seven in the morning and go to
work.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you go back to Chicago to work, or did you go somewhere
else?”
Oh, back to Chicago.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what kind of job did you take?”
Well, I worked in the factory, and, you know, it was eight to four whatever. And it was not fun.
It wasn’t as much fun as playing ball.
Interviewer: “Okay, and so how long did you stay with that?”
Let’s see. I worked in the box factory probably a couple of years, and then I went to Campbell’s
Soup. And I was in the offices. A clerk. And then in my mid-20s, late 20s, I became a supervisor,
an office supervisor. And from there on I got a job as a buyer for Ameritech Communications,
and I ended up pretty high on the bracket.
Interviewer: “Okay, so after you left the league, I mean, did you talk to people about
having played baseball, or did they even know you did that?”
People didn’t know I did it, and I didn’t talk about it because I thought people back then would
think, “Oh my god, she’s so boyish or mannish.” I didn’t want to talk about it because they
didn’t look up to people then or to women then. (30:02) It was all, you know. “Oh, you did
that?”
Interviewer: “Women weren’t supposed to do what men were doing.”
15
�O’Dowd, Annie
Exactly. So never ever talked about it until 1992 when the movie came out, and that was
excellent.
Interviewer: “Okay, now when they made the movie, you know, they brought in some of
the former players, and some of them helped train them, and they had events and things
like that. Did you get invited to participate in any of that?”
Well, I was there when they were shooting in Cooperstown, and you participated a little, you
know. But I never really consulted or anything like that on the movie.
Interviewer: “Okay, so how did they know to contact you? Had you stayed in touch with
any of the players, or did the league have an organization that you were a part of by then?”
I think the league…
Interviewer: “Okay, so basically the league—They’re organized on some level. They’re
trying to find people. So they find you at that point, and then you kind of get reconnected
with them at that point. And so what do you think was sort of different from your
experience to what’s in the movie?” (32:21)
I think the movie was fairly correct except we didn’t have a pitcher or catcher that were sisters.
They made that part up.
Interviewer: “Yeah, but that was also supposed to be the first season, and you weren’t
there yet. But yes, they made that up.”
Yeah, but the good part of the movie was when the catcher went to get a foul ball. She did the
splits. Well, I did the splits, and I was proud of that.
Interviewer: “Okay. Do you remember who you had for managers?”
All I can remember is Lenny, and I can’t remember his last name. And Max Carey. And I can’t
remember the name of the Rockford Peaches coach. Can’t remember.
Interviewer: “Okay. Did the managers do a good job?”
As far as I was concerned, they did a fairly good job. I did not get to know a lot of pointers,
which I thought I would get, but I didn’t get that many pointers on how to catch. I just kind of
self-taught myself.
16
�O’Dowd, Annie
Interviewer: “All right, and then I guess the other thing I wanted to ask about and hadn’t
throw in here yet—I mean, you mentioned the chaperones briefly. You know, what did
their duties consist of, and what did you think of them?”
Oh, I liked the chaperones. Well, you know, they told you when to go to bed and what the
schedule was for the next day, and they weren’t really too bad. They weren’t too tough on me.
Of course, I never did anything wrong.
Interviewer: “Well, you were also old enough and principled to kind of look after yourself
anyway.”
Right.
Interviewer: “Okay, now the movie kind of depicts them as more sort of schoolmarmish or
something like that. Well, do you think that part was fair?” (34:31)
I think some of the chaperones were that way, yeah. I didn’t run into those.
Interviewer: “All right, so once the movie comes out, now did you get people starting to
contact you or get you to go places or do things or sign autographs or that kind of thing?”
No, but—Not to sign autographs, but I did—And I still get mail to sign, you know. Baseball
cards.
Interviewer: “Right. So you’re on the list.”
Yes, I’m on the list. Yeah. I get what? Maybe two a week, which is astonishing to me that people
are still looking for autographs from 1949. Amazing.
Interviewer: “All right. Now we’re doing the league’s reunion in Sarasota in 2016. Have
you been to many of their events or reunions or…?”
The only one I was—that I attended was probably one of the first ones in 1986 in Chicago.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you were connected to them. That’s well before the movie.”
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
17
�O’Dowd, Annie
Interviewer: “So that would be how they find you at that point. Okay, so why did you come
this year?”
Because I live in the Villages, and this is only a couple hours away. So I can get a friend to drive
me down here, so I thought this would be a good time to come. (36:13) I am going to Florida—
Miami—for the next one. Is it the reunion?
Interviewer: “The FanFest.”
FanFest.
Interviewer: “The big baseball FanFest. Okay, now after the movie came out, did you tell
anybody at that point?”
Oh, yeah. Then I was very proud of what I did. And yeah, I said, “Did you see the movie A
League of their Own?” “Oh, yeah.” “Well, I was one of the original ballplayers.” Yes, I was very
proud of that.
Interviewer: “Oh, good. All right, to think back at the time then that you spent playing
ball, I mean, what do you think you took out of that, or what did you learn from it?”
Well, I learned to be patient and be more truthful with people. Not that I was not truthful, but I
feel like I was more truthful then. And what else? I don’t know.
Interviewer: “Well, do you think it helped you at all—your career afterward, especially as
you sort of moved up and got more responsibility?”
Well, as I said, I was kind of a team leader, and that’s how I was when I got into the office work.
And I became, you know, a manager. And people like me because I was fair. I was hard when I
had to be, but I was very fair. And I think I got that from playing ball.
Interviewer: “All right, now if you think back over your playing career, and you think
back just to that time, is there anything else that kind of stands out in your memory there
that you haven’t brought into the story yet? (38:19) Events or people or impressions of
things?”
Well, I was very impressed when I went to Yankee Stadium.
Interviewer: “Talk about that. Why did you go to Yankee Stadium?”
18
�O’Dowd, Annie
Well, there was the traveling team then, and it was just amazing to see all the old ball players up
there. Just—It was—I can’t explain how I felt.
Interviewer: “Now did you play a game there?”
Yes, played a game in Yankee Stadium. And don’t remember if I got any hits or anything like
that, but it was...
Interviewer: “All right, now were you doing your game as like an exhibition before a
regular game, or were the Yankees not there that day, or…?”
I don’t think the Yankees were in town that week.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you don’t remember meeting any of them or anything like that?”
No, I don’t.
Interviewer: “Okay. Do you remember if you went to any other Major League stadiums?
Went to Washington or someplace else?”
I think it was the Washington Senators then, and Connie Mack, I think, was still managing then.
Did I meet him? Don’t recall. It’s awful. I don’t recall a lot of things.
Interviewer: “All right. Well, he would have been kind of old by then.”
Yes, he was pretty old.
Interviewer: “But he did that a long time. Yeah, I guess we normally associate him with
Philadelphia, but if you were going up the East coast, you might have gone there, too.”
(40:08)
Well, didn’t he—Wasn’t he a manager for the Washington Senators?
Interviewer: “He might have been. I’m too young to remember Connie Mack.”
Oh, now you’re bragging. You’re too young.
Interviewer: “Yeah, yeah, I know. All right, but I had heard of him in association with
Philadelphia Athletics, but anyway. Okay, so yeah, you got to see a good chunk of the
country along the way there.”
19
�O’Dowd, Annie
Twenty-seven states.
Interviewer: “All right. I think we have pretty much covered what I had in mind. Anything
else we ought to be talking about?”
I think you should interview Jill.
Interviewer: “All right. Anyway, I would just like to close this by thanking you for taking
the time to talk to me today.”
Oh, you’re entirely welcome.
20
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-58_ODowdA1971BB
Title
A name given to the resource
O'Dowd, Anna (Interview transcript and video), 2016
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
O'Dowd, Anna Mae
Description
An account of the resource
Annie O’Dowd was born in Chicago, Illinois, in 1929. She graduated from high school in 1947 and worked in a box factory before trying out for the All-American Girls Professional Baseball League in 1949. She was initially placed in the Chicago Colleens, a travelling team (similar to a minor-league team), and played with them for a season. After the Colleens, she joined the Rockford Peaches and played with them for half of a season. The final team she played with was the Kalamazoo Lassies in the early 1950s before leaving the League.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-21
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4