1 24 51 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d477cace4c921d4510e4efadbd528cda.mp4 3e5ddfe5e742e923d514965f803035fb https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bce3383305a62b5fcf9e0bcc37987aca.pdf bd2cb2d49f8b6915351d41814a15ba1e PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans History Project Interviewee’s Name: Isabel (Lefty) Alvarez Length of Interview: (00:37:11) Interviewed by: James Smither, Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, June 30, 2010 Interviewer: “Can you begin to tell us a little bit about your background? To start with, where and when were you born?” I was born on October 31, 1933 in Havana, Cuba. Interviewer: “What did your father do for a living or what did your family do?” Well, my father was in the marines and then in the police force for fifty years. Interviewer: “So he had a regular job. How many children were in your family?” My brother and myself only Interviewer: “When did you start playing baseball?” I think very—my mother was all sport orientated and she knew it was healthy, so baseball they played in the street you know and she let me do the sports, but she didn’t let me do any other things. 1:14 Interviewer: “What other sports did you play besides baseball?” Fencing, soccer and baseball most of all Interviewer: “Now, when you played these games, were you mostly playing with boys or were there a lot of girls too?” In the fencing there was women, it was well organized and directing the fencing was people from the government. Interviewer: “Did you have fencing tournaments and did you travel around?” At the time, in fifty-- it was the time, I can’t remember the exact day, but we were going to go to Europe for fencing and I had to make up my mind if I wanted to go to Europe or come to the United States to play baseball, so I decided to come here and I would like to know the date, I can’t remember. 2:09 Interviewer: “Well, when did you first have contact with American baseball? When did you start playing either with or against American teams?” 1 �In 1947 when they went to spring training and we had an exhibition game and to let you know, I pitched that one game. Interviewer: “How old were you when you pitched in this exhibition game?” I was fourteen years old. In 1947, now I figure it out. Interviewer: “If it was in the spring of 1947, you were probably thirteen.” Thirteen, I can’t imagine. Interviewer: “How did you do?” I did very well, that’s what my mother told me. She was at the game and that’s the first time my mother saw me play. 2:54 Interviewer: “How did they get the team together? How did you wind up on the team?” The owner of our Cuban team was a—he was the owner of a wine distillery and he had a lot of connects with tourists and how he get to know Max Carey and the commissioners of the league, I don’t have any idea, but he had a lot of good connections and a lot of money and we had a place to go and train. I love it you know because we even stayed on weekends and had food and everything. 3:33 Interviewer: “And do you remember at all what happened in that game that you pitched against the Americans? Your mother told you, you did well.” Well that’s when they decided they were going to bring four Cubans to the United States and the President came to my house to my mother and said I wasn’t old enough to come to the United States, you had to be fifteen, so I waited until 1949, I was fifteen then. Interviewer: “You really knew from 1947, that you wanted to go.” Yeah, the manager said, the Cuban manager, “you’re going to be next”, so I knew and it was anxiety you know. 4:16 Interviewer: “So then when it gets to 1949 and you’re going to go to America, how did they get you over to the states and where did you go first? Do you remember about going over?” The first time I step here in the United States to go to play for—it was Chicago and I— coming fresh from Cuba at that age, I didn’t even know I was in Chicago. Interviewer: “How did you get from Cuba up to Chicago?” By—how did I get over there? A plane to Miami and then drive to Chicago. Interviewer: “You drove to Chicago?” 2 �No, I didn’t drive—how did I get over there? That’s a funny thing, how did I get to Chicago?” 5:08 We fly, we had to fly. We flew yes. Interviewer: “Now, were you all by yourself when you did this or did you have someone with you?” There were three Cubans with me. Interviewer: “So, a group of four Cubans go together?” Yes, together, that’s how we first started in 1949. Interviewer: “So, the time you came to the United States did you speak any English yet?” Not very much, my mother was tutoring me with words and works and everything because my mother was right, to learn English. There was a professor in Cuba, a neighbor, he was supposed to learn, to teach English and my mother sent me to him for a week . He thought I could learn English in a week. I don’t know, so then my brother, when I came over here he said, “well you knew English when you came to the United States”, and I said, “I did not know the English much in a week”. 6:09 Interviewer: “What happened once you got to Chicago? What did they do with you then? What did you do?” They assigned us to a team and I was assigned to the Chicago Colleens. Interviewer: “Did the team make any provision to help—were you the only Cuban player they had or did all of you go together?” No, there were four of us. Interviewer: “All four of you to one team?” Yes, two, there were two teams, the Chicago Colleens and the Springfield Sallies. Interviewer: “So two went to each team?” Yes. 6:45 Interviewer: “You had somebody else there from Cuba.” Yes, those years, Madelia, the older one. She was the one who helped a lot with the language because she knew pretty good English when she came. Interviewer: “How well did you get along with the other players on the team?” 3 �I had no problem with getting along because I was happy to be here and I knew that I had to get along because my mother was right there and she wanted me here in the United States, so I better—I don’t know, it was something natural. I was trained to like the United States from my mother and I think it’s good. 7:36 Interviewer: “At this point you were a pitcher?” Yes Interviewer: “Primarily pitching, all right, now was the game you were playing here any different from the game you played in Cuba in terms of the style of play or the equipment used or anything like that?” The ball was a little bigger, but I don’t really—I got adjusted so well, I feel, that I don’t have any knowledge about it that I had trouble because I was here to play ball and that’s what my mother wanted me to do. Interviewer: “Ok, and how successful were you as a player at that point? Did you Pitch well and win games?” Well, I don’t –all those years back, they got some scores—I got some baseball cards, but my records, they don’t show that I was a real, real great ball player. 8:41 I don’t consider myself that great. Interviewer: “How long did you play in the American baseball league?” Six years. Interviewer: “Six years, you stayed in the league all that time?” Yeah Interviewer: “So you were apparently good enough to do that?” Right, and I had the chance when the Colleens folded, I had a chance to go to Fort Wayne, they picked me up to go to Fort Wayne and that’s the biggest opportunity I had. Interviewer: “Did you like playing in Fort Wayne better than Chicago or was it about the same?” Well, we were in a group and we would ride the bus all together, everything was all together, but when I went to Fort Wayne I was just on my own and it took me a little longer time to start getting use to it, but it wasn’t anything that I disliked. You’re just in a strange place all by yourself. After coming from a group and going to Fort Wayne you didn’t know anybody and they were older. The girls in Fort Wayne that were playing, they were older than I was. 9:59 I got along and I think I did very well. 4 �Interviewer: “Tell me a little bit about the experience of just kind of traveling around with these teams. When you’re going to play how did you get from one game to another? What did they do? Did they put you on busses or trains?” Yes, busses and oh yeah, we had more fun and I sat in the front, in the front seat, so I could have the big window in the bus and then I can read the signs where we were going and the manager was sitting in the other side and he was a mixed Cuban. I would read a sign and he helped me to pronounce it better. 10:46 Interviewer: “Who was your manager at this time? What was his mane?” Mitch Skupien, I might not be pronouncing it right, but he was really, really nice. Interviewer: “When you were playing at these games, did you get a lot of fans who would come to the games in Fort Wayne or Chicago?” Yes, and I always had a lot of good—a lot of fans, they liked me, but everybody was always nice. I have a lot of respect for the people here, but I was brought up that way. Interviewer: “The league had a lot of rules for how the players were to dress and act and all that kind of thing, was it easy for you to follow those rules or did it not make any sense to you?” 11:48 No, No, it was because I was raised differently. My mother you know, different, and I didn’t, my mother always pampered me a lot with lipstick and combing my hair and my dress, she just couldn’t let me out of the house without being dressed nice. I didn’t go to school there because the schooling was in 1943 and by 1949 they didn’t have those strict rules. 12:26 Interviewer: “So it wasn’t quite the same as it was when the league started by the time you got there?” It was different it was just different. Interviewer: “Were there particular friends you had on these teams or people you got to know really well and stand out in your memory?” Yes, I had a—it was more they get close to the Cubans you know and we always had that, the players being very, very nice. I had pretty good luck in that and we had fun because my English was broken and they laughed and I laughed with them because it was funny. 13:13 Interviewer: “Ok now, when you think back about the time that you spent in this league playing these games, are there particular events or things that kind of stand out in your mind or that come back to you a lot, good things that happened to you at certain points along the way?” 5 �On the touring or on the whole? Interviewer: “Anything about that whether it’s on the tour or in a game or off the field.” Well, I mean what—I’ve been lucky, I don’t know if it’s the right word because— Interviewer: “If you hadn’t had the opportunity to come to the United States to play baseball, what do you think you might have done over that period of six years instead?” You mean in Cuba? Interviewer: “If you were back in Cuba, yes.” Oh my dear, I don’t know, my mother would have been crying, but she would cry because that was her ideal, the baseball, she loved baseball. She use to—in our house she was one of those little old ladies and she would sit there and listen to the Cubans baseball playing. She was, there was a team names Allemandes, their blue, and she would light a little candle, she loved baseball. 14:38 Interviewer: “That really was her dream, that you go and do this?” Exactly, she probably would have liked to play ball herself. Interviewer: “Did she ever come up to the United States to see you play?” Never Interviewer: “Did anyone from your family come up at any point?” No, they never could because at the time it was hard to sponsor anybody. I couldn’t sponsor anybody, so it was rough. Interviewer: “So there were immigration rules and things that made it difficult to come up?” You had to have a sponsor and I was very lucky in 1953 when Mr. And Mrs. Blee, they—I met them through their daughter at a ball game. I met them, they took me home, to their home, they gave me a room and then, because they knew I was a Daisy then you see, and anybody who was a Daisy player, they had to be good people, and more or less from Cuba. 15:37 Interviewer: “So, what kind of living—did you normally live with people’s families in their home?” Yes Interviewer: “Did you do that in Chicago too?” No, we stayed in hotels. 6 �Interviewer: “So, when you got to Fort Wayne you would go and live in people’s houses?” Yes Interviewer: “So these people essentially sponsored you so you could stay in the states?” No, this was after the first year when I went to Fort Wayne in 1951. I already knew who I was going to live with, I think the league set it up. The fans would take ball players in, so I went to—with them, and this time in 1951 and in 1954 I went back to Fort Wayne and where was I staying in 1954? 16:24 Interviewer: “I was asking, how did you wind up staying in the United States?” Oh, yes Interviewer: “You talked about people sponsoring you.” In 1951, when I came on, I was rooming there for doing baseball and then in—I met someone at a ball game for some reason. It’s a long story and I don’t know if you want to hear that? Interviewer: “We’re interested, yes.” I was at the ball park watching some—I wasn’t playing ball, and there were some kids playing softball and I went to the ball park to watch them, so I was sitting there, I was very fresh from Cuba and I even had a little pocket with money that my mother always said to put it in between your bra, and for some reason, I have some pictures, and I knew I was a Daisy, so then that time I had some pictures with me and the kids were all crazy about looking at my pictures and suddenly I don’t know where everything was. 17:31 My money, the money that I had, I must have—I don’t know and the pictures, I couldn’t find nothing I was—so one of the girls from the ball team, she was the one that helped me, she called the FBI and we were going to call the police to see if these kids have taken the money and run, and guess what? That morning that was finding the police, the FBI she said and I went to the ballpark and you know I found everything, the pictures and the money, that little pocket. Somebody get scared and throw it around and I was very lucky because I had about a hundred dollars and then she took me home to meet her mom and dad and that was it. They give me a home and they applied for citizenship in 1953 because they knew I was—I was kind of lost really that year, it was in 1952. 18:47 I went there and I stayed with them and became friends and this friend, it wasn’t a friend, she was the one who helped me, she went into college and I stayed with her mom and dad and I was sleeping in her room upstairs while she was in college, so I never saw this friend, I never saw her very much. 19:16 Interviewer: “Now, the league shuts down after the 1954 season, so when that came to an end what did you do at that point?” 7 �See, in 1953, Mr. and Mrs. Blee, I applied for citizenship paper, so in 1954 I had my residence, so I didn’t go back home. Interviewer: “What did you do for a living at that point?” They give me a job I was a carhop. They call in the drive-in and he says, “I got a girl here from Cuba and she don’t speak English, but she needs a job”, and Don Holt said, “bring her over “, so they drove me in there and they give me a job and I could hardly even speak English, but they were helping me. I use to go and take the orders you know you put a tray in and sometimes I miss the tray drops and sometimes kids they laugh at you. 20:25 I go inside, take the order and go inside and call it and the manager he saw me coming and he grabbed my slip and said, “I can read it faster than you can call it”, but you know what, I never got mad at him, I thought he was great, he was a good manager. 20:50 Interviewer: “How long did you wind up working there?” I don’t know how many years, but I worked quite a bit until. Right, and then I went to—I worked on the 401 Tailoring Co. also, so I really worked all through my whole after baseball. I worked and I always had a job. Years ago you know they helped me to go and get a job, they aren’t going to support you. Interviewer: “If you look over that whole experience you had playing baseball etc. How do you think that wound up affecting you? You talked a little bit about how, and obviously your life was different because you came to America and stayed, did it change you as a person? Did you otherwise?” 21:44 No, it probably made me better because I was raised that America was a good country and you had that in your mind to respect. Interviewer: “Have you paid much attention to what has happened with women’s sports in this country over the past fifty years? You see more women on television doing different things, basketball and that kind of thing.” It is great and I think your mother and father have a lot to do with getting their son’s and daughters to start playing sports and supporting them, but the mother has to have the incentive like my mother did otherwise I wouldn’t be here because my dad said, “why are you going to go over there where it’s cold?” It would have broke my heart if they would never take me to come to the United States. 22:53 Interviewer: “Aside from just being on your own, were there aspects of just adjusting to living in the states that were a problem? Did the cold bother you or anything like that?” No, I never did complain about the weather. As a matter of fact, I didn’t complain about much of anything because I was here best and complain, ‘holly cow”. I never was that type either, but I made a lot of friendships and that’s one thing and I don’t know I’m just 8 �myself, but my friends have made my world. In Fort Wayne too, I don’t have no enemies I don’t think so. 23:53 Interviewer: “I can see why you wouldn’t. Do you have anything else that you would like to put on the record here before we close out the interview? Anything that you would like to say about the league itself or playing?” Well, I am so thankful and I have been very lucky because of all the Cubans that came. I believe that I—let me see how I’m going to say it, I just, the appreciation that I have being here. 24:48 Interviewer: “Now, were their other Cubans that came and joined the league after you did? Did you meet anybody new or were you the last group?” Yes, and there were some that came before earlier. Interviewer: “Alright, there is something I did want to get in here and ask you a little and that’s, did you normally have a spring training session of some kind? What did you do to prepare for a season from one year to the next?” When I use to go back home or here? Interviewer: “No, from one year to the next, while you were playing baseball, did you go home in the winter?” Yes Interviewer: “Ok, you go home in the winter and then you?” From 1949 until 1953 I use to go back home. Interviewer: “When you came back, did you do spring training games before the regular season?” 25:53 Yes, just a spring training practicing. Interviewer: “Where did you do the practicing? Was that wherever your team was based?” Yes, and when I was in Chicago, in the morning we use to practice and on tour, the touring team, we practiced the same and it’s a mostly in the morning we did our practicing. Interviewer: “Was it 1949 and 1950 that your team was touring?” Right, we did a lot of practice. Interviewer: “When you were touring would you play just any local teams from any community you went to?” 9 �We had two teams, the Springfield Sallies and Chicago. Interviewer: “They just toured together and played in different places.” Yes, and they would advertise in the paper that we were in town and we had the tryouts for the one, just like in the movie you know. 26:50 Interviewer: “As you were touring, how far away from Chicago did you get when you were traveling? Did you just stay in the Midwest mostly?” Yes, let me see, about—I had that written down how many places we went. I had a map and right now I just can’t tell you because I—sorry. Interviewer: “But there were a lot of different towns, not just two or three places?” Oh yes Interviewer: “Were they in a few hours of each other or did you have really long trips sometimes?” We played and we also left that same night sometimes. The traveling was heavy you know and the many towns in the states; we had quite a few, close to fifty, fifty-six I think. 27:54 Interviewer: “You said you would hold tryouts when you went to these different places?” Yes and there was one lady, one of the girls, she’s in our team and she’s here today. We pick her up in Cuba for Arkansas and she was a good pitcher and she came with us and she had to leave home and she was--said English and we became friends because she was sitting in the same seat. Can you imagine what she thought, I can’t speak English and she was from Arkansas. We got along fine and we’re still good friends now and she stayed in the league and she is really the only one we picked up that I can remember. Interviewer: “Did they recruit women to play? At some point they had to through junior teams or things like that. Did they recruit people for those teams or just—“ To play for us, yeah they had three and they had to be pretty good and she was, she was a good pitcher and we always need pitchers. Interviewer: “As far as your own playing career goes, you were a pitcher. Now, were you a starting pitcher or were you a relief pitcher or both?” 29:32 I was a starter and relief both ways. Interviewer: “And did you play any other positions?” Outfielder. 10 �Interviewer: “So it wasn’t like the baseball teams today where the pitcher only pitches and is sitting on the bench the rest of the time?” No, no and also, the pitcher never get in hitting practice very much. I can’t imagine that, so supposedly when you run the bases then they bring you your coat and that was real. The pitcher was given great care and the chaperone would message your arm. 30:24 Interviewer: “So they did try to do what they could at that point to make sure you didn’t blow out your arm or anything else like that?” Right, they were very, very good. Interviewer: “Now, did you ever get hurt while you were playing? Did you ever have an injury that kept you out of the games?” Yes, in 1954 in Fort Wayne. Interviewer: “What happened?” Trying to second base and I twisted my leg, so that was it. I went to the hospital and they put me in traction and they left me in traction for one month, can you imagine this? Interviewer: “That’s what they did back in those days.” I lay there and I didn’t know nothing you know, so I never went back in the game because I had to have surgery. 31:10 Interviewer: “Now, when you heard about the league shutting down, were you sad about that or were you planning on going back?” No, I wasn’t going back, I was just here, I was glad I had my residence. If I never would have met those people I would be back in Cuba yet. My mother would cry then, but I’m so thankful, you just can’t imagine how lucky I’ve been. I think I have been, of all the Cubans and I’m not bragging, I have been the lucky one. Interviewer: “It certainly sounds like you had a good time and you tell good stories and thank you for coming in and talking to me today.” Thank you thank you. 32:05 11 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_IAlvarez Title A name given to the resource Alvarez, Isabel "Lefty" (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alvarez, Isabel Description An account of the resource Isabel Alvarez was born in Havana, Cuba in 1933. She grew up in Havana and played baseball with the neighborhood kids and was also involved with other sports. In 1947, she pitched her first exhibition game in American baseball and was picked by the All American League and sponsored to come to the United States with three other Cubans to play baseball in 1949. She played pitcher for the Chicago Colleens from 1949 through the 1950 season. When the Chicago Colleens folded, she went on to play for the Fort Wayne Daisies during the 1951 and 1954 seasons. Upon getting her citizenship in 1953 she stayed in the United States permanently. During her six-year baseball career she also played utility outfielder and also played briefly with the Battle Creek Belles (1951); Kalamazoo Lassies (1953); and the Grand Rapids Chicks (1954). Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women Baseball players--Illinois World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Michigan Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-09-26 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1b64f55a7dbd7dc7175438b0a9709c80.mp4 865c0169efff1f1c763542b8b6293b15 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ef13599ed0c98ada1c77d1bd4a3b3787.pdf 634482ef9c7f81791b753a0c9a998049 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans’ History Project Interviewee’s Name: Lou Arnold Interviewer: “Lou can you start out by telling us a little bit about yourself, for instance, where and when were you born?” I was born in Pawtucket Rhode Island in 1925-May 11, 1925. Interviewer: “They have you in the book as being born in 1923?” I mean 1923. Interviewer: “Just checking on it. That will be the one time I can catch you up on something probably. You were born in 1923 and did you grow up on Pawtucket or did you grow up somewhere else?” I’m the thirteenth child and that’s why my numbers thirteen on my uniform. I was born in Rhode Island, Pawtucket and grew up in Rhode Island. Interviewer: “What did your family do for a living?” My father, at one time, had a cemetery. I don’t know what you call it, but he took care of it and people that came to be buried and my mother never worked. My father also taught a wood working school for a while. 1:12 Interviewer: “Was he able to keep his job through the depression?” No, as a matter of fact we lost our home during the depression. You know I was young then and I had all the kids in the neighborhood come over and I said,” We got a red flag on our house, we got a red flag on our house”. We didn’t know, my mother went to New York and we had no idea and that’s what it was, they were auctioning it off—yeah, that’s something to remember. Interviewer: “Did you stay in Pawtucket and just live somewhere else?” No, I stayed in Pawtucket and I played softball. I played softball for the “Opit Milk Maids” and we won the championship in softball and we changed it to different names like the “Townies” and different names, but they were all farm gals but myself. 1:59 Interviewer: “How did you hook up with them? How did you wind up playing for them?” They were playing at the ball park one night and we went to see them and my brother-in law’s brother was there and he said, “Lou, you ought to get in and play ball with them”, 1 �and I said, “oh, I don’t know, I just pick-up”, so I went—not to the tryout, but to the team, to try with the team and I played shortstop since the first time I went. 2:21 Interviewer: “All right, had you been playing a lot just around the neighborhood before?” No, not too much, but I had a brother who use to pitch to me and I played catch with my brother, but that team—I think I was fourteen or fifteen when I started on that team and I stayed with that team. Interviewer: “You stayed with that team. Now did they pay you?” No, it was just an amateur thing, but one thing we did—we played in Boston Garden maybe every other Friday night and that’s something that—I don’t know of any other team—Mary Pratt might have, I don’t know. We use to go to the Boston Garden on Friday night. 3:09 Interviewer: “That’s an old indoor arena.” Yes, that was a big deal to us you know to go. Interviewer: “Would you get a crowd to watch you play?” They had a pretty good crowd there, yeah. Interviewer: So how was it exactly that you wind up joining the professional baseball league?” I was with the “Townies” then, and they were playing the sailors down at Newport and they had a girl pitcher and the two women pitched against each other and we were there and we played and had a good time and when we came out this man walked up and he said, “hey Lou, how would you like to play professional baseball?” And I said, “Oh, wonderful, yeah, yeah”. We had never known him, well, he asked myself and three other girls, four of us. The other three went and they called me and said, “Oh Lou you should come out, you’d love it”, but you know, at the time I had a boyfriend in the service and stuff like that you know. 4:14 I hesitated and finally I said, “I think I’m going to go”. Well, my mother was a little upset and my father was too, but anyway, I went and I remember I took the train and went to Opa-locka, Florida. That’s where they had the spring training and that’s where we had old barracks to stay in and all that. It was very good and I don’t know if you saw the movie, but it was like in the movie, you get playing a game with different people and all of a sudden the roster is up there and you go and look at it and it’s sad—say you were next to me and I got on and you know we got to be good friends playing and the girl next to me couldn’t make it, she didn’t make it and she’s crying and I’m crying and I’m crying for her, but it was a wonderful, wonderful experience. 5:12 Interviewer: “So you were trying out for which team?” 2 �They were going to pick for the teams and the “Blue Sox” picked me and I stayed with them all the time. Interviewer: “Is that the South Bend Blue Sox?” Yes, the South Bend Blue Sox. Interviewer: “At this time you said you had been a short stop.” I almost flipped when I got out there and they had a man that worked with you on pitching and he said, “We’re going to make a pitcher out of you”. At the time I had a pretty good arm, you know a shortstop can throw them over pretty good and I think that’s what made him think that I’d be a wonderful, wonderful pitcher. Well, I don’t think I was a wonderful, wonderful pitcher, but you did as they said you know and the man worked with me and everything a lot, so that’s how I got to pitch. 5:59 Never, never played another position on a team, never got the chance. Interviewer: “What they were doing with you is what they do with professional male baseball players. They may start at one position, but then they said, “well, you have the skills to go over here and that’s what we need”, so short stops can become pitchers for the very reason that you did, they had good arms. See, you had a good arm and you learned to pitch pretty well.” I don’t feel I was a star or anything. Interviewer: “Now, at the point when you joined the league, this was the point when they had gone to overhand pitching. If they had been still been doing underhand or sidearm, would you have done that?” Oh I would have if they wanted me to, but I went out for shortstop you know. 6:47 Interviewer: “and when you were shortstop, the shortstops pretty much, they would all be throwing overhand normally wouldn’t they? Throw fast.” Oh yeah. Interviewer: “That was a little more natural.” In softball you have to throw that ball over there for shortstop. Interviewer: “How was the game you were starting to play, how was that different from the softball you had been playing back up in New England?” I never played softball here. The year I came out in 1948 they went over to— Interviewer: “What I’m asking is how was that baseball different from what you had been doing in the amateur league?” 3 �Well, for one thing, the bases were farther apart and the pitching mound a little away too and it was really exciting to be honest with you though I loved softball and it is hard to pick between the two of them because I enjoyed myself at softball and I played every single game and every single day that we played. 7:44 Interviewer: “Were you a little bit older than some of the other women?” Yes, I was twenty-five, I think, when I went in or twenty-four or something like that. I think it was twenty-five or twenty-six. Interviewer: “Did that make you almost a mother figure for some of them? Would you do things to help some of them adjust?” Oh yes, yes, oh yes and I use to talk and sometimes we would have a girl keep score one time back home and going to the gym and this girl said to me, “I never do anything but score keeping”, and boy I really told that kid I said, “you know, if you didn’t keep their score nobody would have their average, nobody would know what their hitting, you’re just as important as the girl that gets the home runs”. That kid looked at me as if to say, “are you crazy lady?” 8:46 I said, “I’m serious”, and it’s true, no matter what—even if you carry the water you’re carrying it for someone to get a drink and it’s going to help them to either get a base hit or strike somebody out or throw somebody out. No matter what you do it’s professional. I couldn’t believe you know, I think the first time I made sixty-five dollars a week and I left a job that I earned thirteen dollars and seventy-five cents a week. I made more than some of the superintendents back home. It might sound crazy, but that was a lot of money a week 9:26 Interviewer: “What did you do with your money?” Well, I sent money home to my mom and a lot of them went to college, which was a very smart thing. A lot of the ball players are college graduates, but I never went to college. Interviewer: “That gets a little farther in the story. Do you remember making the trip up to South Bend and arriving there and looking around?” Well not too much, I remember I went on a train from Rhode Island to Florida and you know never being out of Rhode Island, it was really, really “whew” I was afraid somebody was going to grab me, I don’t know, but when you got there and you met all the gals—you never knew what team you were going to be on and you didn’t even know if you were going to be picked, but it was a wonderful time and what an experience for kids from Rhode Island—we just never went—maybe Boston was the farthest we went, if we went then. 10:37 What a thrill, just absolutely. You know sir I’m going to tell you— ever since I played ball, from the first night I joined the South Bend Blue Sox, I never, never in my life missed a night without thanking God for that opportunity. I’m eighty-six today and that was a wonderful time of your life. It was the cleanest league, not that there were any dirty leagues or anything, but that was one of the cleanest leagues you would ever want to be in. It made you proud if you never got off the bench just to be 4 �there. The gals were just wonderful to me, absolutely wonderful and I was so scared, but it didn’t take long for them to get with me and everything, you know. 11:27 Interviewer: “Now how much sort of support did they give you? Were they still using chaperones, did they still have a lot of rules for you to follow?” Oh yes, the chaperones were very, very good though. We had to be in by eleven, eleven thirty depending on what kind of a game it was and you weren’t supposed to wear shorts or slacks off the bus or anything like that. We wore shorts on the bus because it was so warm, but we had skirts that we put on. You wore skirts almost all the time because you couldn’t go out anyplace unless you kind of sneak out the window. If we went to the park to have a hot dog roast or something we wore shorts or slacks, but that’s a little different. 12:12 Interviewer: “Where did you live when you went up to South Bend?” I lived at I’ll say South Bend; I lived there most of the time in houses, in homes. When you went, somebody had to, if you were a rookie, somebody had to take you as their roommate, one of the older ones, someone that wasn’t a rookie. That’s how you got into a room with someone. Interviewer: “Do you remember who your first roommate was?” Her name was Thompson, but I can’t think—I think her last name was Thompson, but I’m not sure. I wasn’t with her too long because they traded--they traded like crazy, but I had wonderful roommates. 13:03 Wonderful roommates and landladies, they were just—they would have pies made for us and lots—we were really treated wonderful. I never—I worked at Bendix for thirty years and I never even said that I played ball. There were maybe five of us that worked at Bendix and none of us mentioned playing ball and when they found out that we played ball they went insane. “You never told us you played for the South Bend Blue Sox” and stuff like that. 13:35 To us it was wonderful and not private, but to me it meant so much and I never felt I was a star or anything, but I use to pitch to the stars and they got better by hitting the ball. One gal came in and she said, “Lou, I never get to do anything, sometimes I throw at the bat”, and I said, “If they didn’t have you to throw to them, how are they going to keep their eye on the ball. You mean a lot to them and don’t think that you don’t. Don’t feel that way.” That helped a lot and who was I to tell them, that’s my opinion, I mean that’s how I felt and I got wonderful, wonderful friends out of it. 14:26 Interviewer: “I will tell you, as we were organizing the set of interviews etc. and planning to call even before we got here people said again and again, “You have to talk to Lou Arnold”, which means those friends of yours are real friends and they thought she was someone we should talk to.” I’ll tell you, I get very, very touchy about it, but you can’t believe the friends I got out of this league. You just can’t believe it and I feel that I could call any single ball player that 5 �I know and I’ve met off the ball field now or they could call me and they would give me their last dime and I would give them my last dime. 15:11 Interviewer: “Now let’s shift gears a little bit and let’s go into the business of playing ball. How many games would you play do you think in the space of a week during the season?” Oh, if I played one—I never played too many games, I don’t feel like I played too many games, but I was always in the bullpen. Marty McManus used to let me go to the bullpen every single night. He use to tell me to go there. Sometimes I would come out and they would do all right and sometimes they wouldn’t do too good and they would put someone else in. Interviewer: “Did you start a lot of games?” Oh yeah, I started some games and some I stayed in and some I had to come out. 15:57 Interviewer: “You did have a season when you went ten and two.” Oh that was in fifty-one. Interviewer: “How did that happen? Did everything just work right for you that year?” You know I had a one hitter in that year and Jean [Fout] had pitched a perfect game a day or two before and I was going for a no hitter and this girl that got the hit—it was the Texas league and you know what that is, but that team played behind me like they were shot out of a cannon. They caught everything and stopped everything and threw everybody out and all that, so it ended up a one hitter and I was so thrilled about it, besides we had a wonderful, wonderful umpire, Barney Ross, and I was pitching to this girl who wasn’t the best hitter and he called a strike a ball which meant a lot because we would not had our chance to get this Texas league, so I walked up to the thing, of course my catcher was yelling at him and I said, “Barney, I want to tell you something”, and he said, “yes Lou”, and I said, “You are going blind.” He said, “Lou, I want to tell you something, you go back to that mound and I’ll show you how blind I’m getting.” 17:14 I think he gave me a break on a couple of them after that though. Interviewer: “Now, in this league did you have a regular set of umpires?” Yea, Gadget Ward and Barney Ross, those are the two I remember because we had them the most and I can’t remember the ones out of town. Interviewer: “So, there were umpires that lived near or in South Bend?” Yes, they were both in South Bend and they were both good umpires, but Gadget, if you said one thing, “boom”. 6 �Interviewer: “On the whole, do you think the players in your league were better behaved than say our male baseball players in terms of arguing with the umpire or challenging them?” Oh yes, yes they were. Instead of giving certain signals to the crowd if they’re booing or something, they never—no. 18:11 Interviewer: “Did you feel as if you had to be better behaved than the men?” No, I don’t think any of us ever gave it a thought. I don’t think any of us ever gave that a thought. You would be surprised at the women that came out, good living women. We all wanted to win you know, we’d ride the other team, but I cannot say any bad things about the women and not because I played with them because I was with the South Bend Blue Sox and I never went to another team, but we met some gals after and we would go and have something to eat, which was really against the rules, but the manager kind of knew you know. 19:02 Maybe we would meet someone after the game and go and have something to eat, but that’s all. Interviewer: “Who was the manager while you were there?” My favorite first manager was Marty McManus, the Red Sox, remember he had the Red Sox? Then I had Dave Bancroft, then I had Jean Fout’s husband and I can’t think of his name now, we won with him. Marty McManus, he was a sweetheart, oh, he was so good. 19:38 Interviewer: “Now, did you learn from the manager and from the coaches?” Oh yeah, oh yeah, learn how lead off on the bases and stuff like that. Interviewer: “Could they help you with your pitching?” Oh yea, I had my own—not my own, but we had a pitching coach that worked with us and I don’t even know his name now, but he was a nice guy. Interviewer: “Do you know what kind of pitches you could throw?” Drops and curves and changeups and today I can’t even pick up a pencil, but really it was a---not I, but some of them would throw a double drop and double—Jean Fout, Jean Fout to me was the greatest of great. I mean, even if she pitched a game and we had a double header and someone was running, coach would say, “Jean, go in and play third base”, that girl never, never said a word, never balked at all and went right in. 20:53 Interviewer: “when you were going good and pitching well in a game, were you getting people out by changing speed and locations and fooling them, what were you doing?” 7 �I don’t know, I don’t know what I did, but I had a little skill, but I didn’t have what the others had and I’m not saying that trying to be nice, it’s true, I really don’t know, but I was so thankful I was able to stay there. Interviewer: “You mentioned, you started off by going down to their spring training. Did you go down to Florida for spring training every year?” 21:32 No, the next year they started having it in South Bend and some of the team went to— overseas, they went there for a while, I’m sure they told you about that. Interviewer: “Some went to Cuba.” Cuba, yes, and I’m glad I didn’t have to go there. Interviewer: “What kind of fan support did you have? Did you have a lot of fans coming to the games?” Wonderful. I remember the first game, I was there and we worked out in the field to start and we had the skirts on and I can still hear this guy up in the stands say, “Oh look at the outfits, oh, oh, ladies, ladies”. I think about the third inning he couldn’t believe those ladies slide and everything and he would come to every game, he was really impressed. I can still hear him, he would say, “beeeutiful” when we made a nice play “beautiful”. It had to change him because those women would slide and they come in and we called them “strawberries” and they would have blood running down their legs and we would stand in front of it and fan it when we were playing. The chaperones would put methiolate on it. 22:54 They would wrap it up and they would go right back out and if they had to slide again, they would slide. Interviewer: “You were a pitcher and you probably didn’t have to slide much did you?” No, all I had to try to do is get to first base and sometimes I did on a walk, I don’t know. I don’t remember much. Interviewer: “Now, you were on the team when they won two championships, what do you remember about Guy Kennedy? How did they do with championship series, did they have play offs with a lot of teams or the two best teams or what?” It starts with, I wish I could remember the name of it, but it starts with six teams, then four teams would play and then it gets down to two and when it gets down to two, that’s the big challenge and I think it was either three out of five or four out of seven. 23:54 Interviewer: “So it was a real series like a world series.” Yes, it was a series and I’m trying to think of the name of it, but I can’t. 8 �Interviewer: “Now, one of those championship seasons you played short handed. Can you explain a little bit why you didn’t have all of your players?” Well, I really don’t know and you’ll probably hear this story from somebody else, but this girl was an excellent second baseman—came in and it was close to the ninth inning and we were leading, I think it was the ninth inning we were leading, and she sat down on the bench and she took her shoes off. Well, the manager was out there and he saw her take her shoes off and he said, “hey shorty I want you to run for second base”, and she said, “take Betty Wagner, she can run as fast as I can”, and he said, “no, no, I said get in and run”, and she said, “Betty can do it”, like this, he said, “you’re out, you don’t need to come back”, so when he said that, three or four others said, “if you let her go, I’m going”, so we ended up with seven, eight or nine players, but we had fifteen all the time to start. 25:18 It was a shame because they were all good ball players and they walked out. Interviewer: “But you still managed to win the championship.” Yea, and that was a big deal you know for everybody, that was neat. Interviewer: “Now, over the time you were playing in South Bend and that’s 19481952, did the crowds eventually start to get smaller?” In 1952 they started to get smaller because you didn’t have to have the gas tickets anymore for gas. A lot of them would come in groups or by buses. One of our biggest games was the fourth of July game and I think we had ten thousand that day and they were sitting on the grass that went up like this and they were sitting on the grass out there, but we had a pretty big crowd. 26:15 Interviewer: “You were talking about gas coupons, you mean gas rationing ended?” Yea, when gas was rationed and when the war was over they didn’t have to have rationing and they could drive. A lot of them would come on the bus or they would come in groups and a lot of them walked. Interviewer: “do you think that television had something to do with it too? They could stay home and watch something and not come out and watch you?” Well I think truthfully, in the end, yes, television. Television didn’t really put us out, but like you said, there were a lot of things they didn’t do during the war and that’s how the league started. 27:12 You know, if you talk to the one in Grand Rapids, and a young man interviewed her, she wrote an article that’s great about the beginning of it and how it started and stuff. Interviewer: “That’s why we’re here talking to you because this is part of the Veterans History Project and we’re talking to people who can tell us about different aspects of American life during wartime and things that happened because of it.” 9 �That’s what it was and that’s how it started because Wrigley wanted to do something because so many young men were taken away for war. Interviewer: “Now at the time that you were recruited to come and join this league, had you ever heard of the league before? Did you know there were women baseball players? 27:56 No, I never heard of it and that’s why that man came up to me in Newport and said, “hey Lou, how would you like to professional baseball?” “Yeah, I’d love it”, kidding with him and never knowing that man was serious and then he went to three others and I believed it. Interviewer: “At the time you joined the league or while you were in it, did you think of yourselves and doing something maybe that was new for women to be doing or significant or was it only later maybe?” I wouldn’t say that any of us did. I don’t care what team it was or ladies in that league that didn’t love the game and played for the love of the game. It’s something when you play softball all your life and all of a sudden this baseball comes out, but I think they play for the love of the game. 28:53 A lot of them, I can tell you when we worked at Bendix, never, never did we mentioned that we played and when the people found out, lord a mercy, they were shocked. Interviewer: “Did they find out about this before or after the movie came out?” Before the movie came out because they started putting write ups in the paper and that and they read all the write ups, but by the time I was working—maybe it was after the movie, I’m not sure. Interviewer: “When did you retire from Bendix?” In 1952. Interviewer: “From Bendix, not from the Blue Sox.” Well, I went to Bendix in 1952, after the league, after we finished the league. I went to Bendix on October 6, 1952 because we had a chance of getting in there and then I retired in 30, 30 and out. 29:56 Interviewer: “So you would have retired then in 1982.” In 1982. Interviewer: “Was it while you were still working at Bendix that they began to talk to you about having played in the league or was it after you retired that they were all paying attention to you?” 10 �It was after I retired from work. We worked at Bendix quite a while, six of us, maybe eight and none of us ever mentioned that we played ball. It’s just something—you’re proud, but I just never said anything. Interviewer: “Now, when you look back at it now, do you think that maybe you wound up doing something that was kind of important or that you were some of the first women professional athletes in professional team sports in this country?” 30:46 You know, because everybody is telling you that—Now, I’m giving you my own opinion, everybody is saying, do you? I just met a lady now and she said, “You mean you played professional ball?” She was going to a wedding here and she said, “Oh, I’ve got to congratulate you”, but I never thought I would see a women’s professional baseball team and never thought I’d be on one, never and it was really, really exciting, but you know you have to come home and do your wash and you lived in private homes, but the people were wonderful to me. 31:28 They would make cookies for us and different things and chicken. Interviewer: “When you think back to that time and stuff, are there particular events or things that happened to you that come back to you that you haven’t told me about here yet?” Well, I don’t know if you ever heard of—Oh God, I can’t remember his name—he use to come to the ball games to the football games in an iron lung—Snite, Fred Snite Jr., his father’s a multi millionaire and he use to bring Fred Snite to the football games in an ambulance and they had the doors fixed so when you opened the doors it was all mirrored so he could see the place. He’s in an iron lung, so we were coming home from Tampa, after—we were there playing a game after we had our spring training, and this man came up to our train, our particular train where most of the gals were, and he said, “Is there anybody in here that sings Irish songs?” 32:35 None of us knew who he was, but the girls said, “Lou, Lou”, so myself Jo Leonard and Slats Meier, I think, the three of us went. We were walking through the train, we didn’t know who he was and he said, “My son, my son would love to sing with you”, and I’m thinking a little kid like this, so we went back and as we were going through this one train, it was full of oranges and grapefruits and everything and we got to the last train and the last train had a bay window, the whole back of it was a bay window and then and they had a railing like this, it was gold, and there he was in the iron lung. 33:19 There was his wife and two daughters there and a nurse and I was—I’d never seen anything like that and they said to stand right beside of him, so I went over and I stood there and I said, “Are we going to sing some Irish song?”, and he gasped yes because he couldn’t breath and we sang songs until we were blue in the face. We just sang all the Irish songs we knew and we had a wonderful time and they came out with cookies and ice cream for us, the people there. That was an experience I’ll never forget and then his father came up and gave us oranges and asked us if we wanted oranges or grapefruit. 33:59 That was so touching and so thrilling and when I’d see him at the game, they would have that backed up and he could see both teams. 11 �Interviewer: “So, he would come to your games too? You mentioned he went to the Notre Dame football games.” No, he could never get that thing in our games. Interviewer: “But he watched the Notre Dame football games?” Every—and his father’s got a beautiful building there dedicated to him, beautiful, Fred Snite Jr. Interviewer: “How did your own career end? Did you just decide to stop playing in 1952 or did they tell you were about done?” Oh no, I had an application in for Bendix. Eddie DeLauria, who was the head of the league for one time, was the manager of our team at one time, he said, “Why don’t you put your name in for Bendix Lou? I think they’re going to be hiring”, so I went back home and I got a telegram saying, “come, there’s a job for you at Bendix”, and that’s how I got into Bendix, by playing ball and that’s another thing I thank god for every night is Bendix. Very good money, very good insurance. 35:29 Interviewer: “Now, to look back on the whole thing now, how do you think that whole time playing ball affected you? You told us a little bit about that. Did it make you a different person? Did it change the course your life took?” It never changed me a bit sir. I never ever had so many friends. When we had our first reunion just another ball player, Shirley Stavroff, we’d sit in a chair, not like this chair, and watch people come in and wonder who it was and we were hugging people we didn’t even know, we thought it was a ball player. When we had our first—I think it was sometime in the early eighties, I’m not sure just when it was, but it was in Chicago and it was just fabulous and we use to wait a couple of years, but now we have them every year. 36:22 I wish I could explain the feeling when you see different ones and they say, “Oh, Lou you’re getting thin or Lou you’re getting fat”, and stuff like that, but it’s true, I think you could ask any of them—I feel I could ask any of them if I needed something and I think they feel they could ask me if they needed something, if I had it or if they had it. Interviewer: “One other thing that one of the other players had mentioned to me about you and that was that you had helped some of them just learn some basic manners and learn how to follow the rules. Could you talk a little bit about that? What did you do for them?” 37:05 Well I—did you interview Sue Kidd? Interviewer: “Yes.” Well, Sue Kidd, I haven’t been down to her home, her father had the grocery store, the post office and everything right in Arkansas, Choctaw Arkansas, and she came into the league and she was only a kid and she would walk by or you’d give her something and she never said please, thank you, excuse me, or anything and I thought, “How strange, 12 �that girl’s so—“, and we got to be pretty good friends and I said to her, “I want to tell you something, It’s not going to cost you a cent, but I’m going to tell you something and you better listen to me”, and she would say, “Yeah Lou, yeah Lou”, and I said, “You should learn some manners because you’re such a nice person and a good person, manners would really show what kind of a lady you are”. I don’t really work with her, but when she started coming by me she would say, “Excuse me Lou “ and “thank you Lou”. She caught on and she’s very, very polite now. 38:14 Very polite and I was being interviewed someplace on the radio in Grand Rapids I think it was and she was too, the two of us, So here we were and I got to interviewing and talking to the lady and waiting for Sue and sue said, “You know, I didn’t even know how to say excuse me”, and I almost fell off the chair and she said, “That lady there taught me manners”, and I’m sitting on the chair thinking, “Oh Sue dear, please”, but she has never forgotten that and she has thanked me at different times and I told her, “I’m proud of you Sue”. She was just a hick from the sticks. When she said that I thought I would fall out of the chair, but we’re good friends, very good friends. 39:10 Interviewer. “Well, I knew to ask that because she told me about it, so I thought I would get your side.” She said that to you? Interviewer: “Yes, that’s why I’m asking for your side.” I almost didn’t tell you to be honest with you. I thought, “I don’t want to mention Sue like that”. Interviewer: “Sue’s very grateful that you did it and she put that on record herself, so that just supports what you had to say about what a good bunch of people this is.” Yeah, they were, they were and once and a while we would go over to the boat house , boat club I guess and it was right across the river from our ball park and some would play the slot machine and we’d all jitterbug and have a swell time, but I really feel the manager knew it, but we always had to get back at a certain time you know. I think he really knew it, but I don’t know for sure. There were a lot of little things we did do, we weren’t “holier than thow” you know like picking up the gals at the hotel so they could come to the boat club and dance or have a few beers or something you know. There really wasn’t much drinking in the league. Not much that I know of, of course the team I was on there wasn’t. Let me see if there’s any other interesting—It was just—like now, not because I’m being interviewed, I don’t care if you don’t ever have to use it, to be honest with you that isn’t the point. I think it’s nice of you to ask me and it was nice of Dolly to tell you to ask me, but really makes me feel good to tell you what a wonderful league it was and it’s still a league to all of us you know. 41:06 Interviewer: “We’ve spent a fair amount of time with your group here just this week doing quite a few interviews and we have to agree with you that it really is a 13 �remarkable bunch of people, so I would like to thank you for taking a little time today to come and tell me about it.” Well, thank you for asking me, but I’m telling you and you found out for yourself, some of them are great, great people. 41:30 Interviewer: “that’s right.” 14 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_LArnold Title A name given to the resource Arnold, Lou (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Arnold, Lou Description An account of the resource Lou Arnold was born in Pawtucket, Rhode Island in 1925. She grew up in Pawtucket and played softball with her brother and eventually joined an amateur league where she played for a few teams. After playing a game with a rival team in Newport she was invited to play for the All American League. Arnold played from 1948 to 1952 for the South Bend Blue Sox as a pitcher. One of her baseball highlights came during the 1951 season when she pitched a ten and two record and led her team to the championship that year. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Indiana Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-09-25 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c4a40b71f07a637050aef53d9d57f00f.mp4 4a6af998f77663c25296b011a20be4e1 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/24a31e03c4899ec0a15e6a813693dca9.pdf 87577365de8f7070b7b64fb87afb21e7 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW JANE JACOBS BADINI Women in Baseball Born: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio June 16, 1924 Resides: Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 5, 2010, Detroit, MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion. Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, April 26, 2011 Interviewer: “Let‟s start with your full name and where and when were you born?” My name is Jane Janette Jacobs. I was born in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio at 1836 4th Street. Interviewer: “When were you born?” I was born June 16, 1924 Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like?” Well, I thought it was pretty good, I don’t know if you’d like to—my childhood—my mother found out when I was four years old that I was blind in my left eye, but I had— blind from birth and she was over protective, really over protective of me and everything. 27:53 We had—in the back yard there was a lot of property there and that’s where we played baseball and playing there, but I was the only girl. All the rest of them were guys. Interviewer: “Now, this is a neighborhood? A city neighborhood?” Yes, oh yeah Interviewer: “All right, so neighborhood kids kind of got together in a vacant lot to play ball?” Yeah, we just played and enjoyed ourselves. Interviewer: “So, you had a baseball, a bat, you had gloves?” Yes Interviewer: “How did you get your equipment? Did your parent buy it?” 1 �I had two older brothers. Interviewer: “Ah” They were baseball players and my older brother—at one time both my brothers were pitchers, and then my one brother, well they both were very, very good, but my one brother was an exceptionally good batter, so they asked him not to pitch anymore because they were going to use him for a batter all the time, but my brother Chuck, he pitched and he was terrific, terrific. 29:16 That’s how that was broke up, and then they got so nice with me because they wanted to teach me and since I was a tomboy you know. That’s what they referred to you then when you were out with just a bunch of guys, and there I was, the only girl. Interviewer: “How was school for you?” School? It was good; I got good grades and everything in school. Interviewer: “So the baseball part was just like any other kid? It was just after school you played baseball?” Yes Interviewer: “What position did you play back then?” 29:57 Oh, I was always a pitcher. Interviewer: “Always a pitcher?‟ Yeah, my brothers would show me. Interviewer: “Were you playing softball or baseball?” Well, at that time we were playing softball. Interviewer: “So, it was underhand?” Oh yes 2 �Interviewer: “Did you continue playing into high school?” Yes, I played in high school and I remember our gym teacher said, “Jane, let them hit the ball”, and I said, “no, I don’t think so”, and the gym teacher said, “ you know you are supposed to win if you can”, and I said, “if I let them hit the ball it’s not going to be good”, so the teacher said, “let them hit it anyway”, and I said, “no, no, I can’t do that”. 30:45 Interviewer: “How—your high school had a baseball team?” It was gym really because we didn’t have much of that then. Interviewer: “Ok, how come you were playing? You‟re a girl, how could you be playing baseball in high school?” Well, that’s the way it was. I think it was once a week, to tell you the truth. It wasn’t like playing every day. Interviewer: “It wasn‟t a formal team?” No, it wasn’t a regular baseball team, no. Interviewer: “So you had it almost like before were you had the neighborhood kids play baseball, in high school you just played baseball?” Yeah, right Interviewer: “Ok, all right, when did you first hear about the opportunity for an all American Girls Professional Baseball League? How did you hear about that?” Well, I heard when I played amateur ball when I was sixteen and got terrific—I was really good, I think I had twenty-four wins and either twenty-four or twenty-six, and four losses. 31:54 We had twins that played on the team then and their dad was the manager, I think that’s what you called them in those days, and that’s how I got to play. 3 �Interviewer: “So you—this is still during high school that you‟re playing in this amateur league, ok. Did your parent like the idea of you playing baseball like that?” Well, my mom didn’t know anything about baseball, and oh my gosh, my dad was a pitcher and like I say, my brother was a pitcher and he changed to be a batter. Interviewer: “But they encouraged you?” Oh yeah, my mom didn’t care that much, but my dad sure did. Interviewer: “Well good, so you‟re playing with this amateur league and somebody sees you, is that how it worked out?” 32:53 Yeah, they started to send scouts you know. Interviewer: “What year was this?” Well, they sent scouts when I was—that was a couple of years later. It was just before— when they started the league it was 1943. Interviewer: “1943, so when did you actually—“ We had teams and we traveled to different little cities. Interviewer: “Ok, the scout came around and saw you play—“ Yeah, then I went to Chicago. Interviewer: “So you were invited to go to tryouts?” Yes, right Interviewer: “How did you get there?” By train Interviewer: “Train, ok, were you by yourself?” Yes, at that particular time I was. 4 �Interviewer: “Had you ever traveled very far before?” 33:57 No, no it was completely different back then you know. Interviewer: “What was the experience of taking the train trip out to Chicago for the tryouts like?” Well, I was kind of scared to tell you the truth, because I hadn’t been out like that. It was interesting, when we got there they had someone meet us and we tried out at Wrigley Field in Chicago. We were a little nervous because we didn’t know whether we were going to make it or not, but I made it immediately. Interviewer: „What was that experience like of walking onto the field. Were there girls out there in uniforms already playing?” No, we didn’t have uniforms yet because we had to make the teams and I don’t know what they called the teams because they hadn’t organized the teams yet. Interviewer: “So what were the tryouts like? Did they have you field balls? Were they hitting balls to you? Were you catching? What were the tryouts?” I was just pitching because I wasn’t very good as a fielder you know. 35:00 Interviewer: “So you were pitching and other girls would go up to the mound and they would pitch and scouts were watching?” We were playing in different positions in different places you know. Interviewer: “Did you find out that day that you got in?” I don’t think we found out that day. It seems to me that it was, I hope I’m not wrong, but I think it was about a week before we heard because there were others that had to tryout with yet and that took a little time. Interviewer: “So, were you still in Chicago or did you come back home?” 5 �I came back home. Interviewer: “So, they contacted you at home?” Yes Interviewer: “Tell me about getting that, it must have been a letter in the mail, huh?” 35:52 It could have been a telephone call or something. So, we had the tryout and everything and there were only four teams when it first started in 1943, and like I said, in the beginning I went there and made the team real good and I got real sick. Interviewer: “Got sick?” Well, I got the Mumps and then I was a little afraid because I had to stay behind. I wasn’t use to that straying home and not going out anywhere. That was my first trip that I took in my life, so I went home and instead of going back, which I could have, I just oh no, I didn’t feel like it. Then I got the opportunity and got a contract and everything to come the following year. 37:00 Interviewer: “Nobody had any problem with the fact that you were blind in one eye?” They didn’t know it and this is a good story. I thought well, I’m not going to tell them I’m blind in one eye, and nobody knew it, even my friends, and I had a lot of friends and everything. One day Bob Knolls, he came to interview me after the picture was shown because I was taken on sick leave in a Limousine and all that so, anyway what was the question again? Interviewer: “That they didn‟t know that you were blind in one eye, yeah. You mean the whole time you were playing baseball people didn‟t know?” 6 �No, even my friends because I never told them see. 37:58 When Bob was interviewing me and everything, I said, “Bob, I’ll tell you one thing, but I don’t want you to be writing this up”, I said, “I was blind in one eye. I was born blind.”, and he said, “What?”, and I said, “Yeah”, and he said, “you could do a lot of good for kids that have a handicap. Would you please allow me to use this as a fact?” He said, “you will be surprised how much it helps kids”, which I was in the future, because they held them back you see. Through that kids started to do whatever they could. Interviewer: “So you tried out and what team did you get on?” I got on the Racine Belles and I played for two years with the Belles. Interviewer: “That meant that you had to move to Racine, so your parents were ok with your going?” Yeah, we stayed in people’s homes out there rather than staying in a hotel. Interviewer: “Hotels, right, did you have to go through that charm school?” Oh yes, I went through the charm school, and in fact there’s a write-up in the paper. You have one of the papers, don’t you? Interviewer: “Tell us about that.” Well, we weren’t that way, we were a little—we just didn’t like that you know because we had to use make-up and everything and we didn’t like it. Interviewer: “What were some of the things they had you do? In the movie they show a book on the head.” I was going to say, we had to walk a certain way and you couldn’t be tomboyish or anything like that because you had to be a young lady, so I thought it was terrible. 40:05 I said, “my God it was terrible” Am I allowed to say “My God?” 7 �Interviewer: “So the basic idea was that you had to act like a lady , so you had to sit a certain way and you had to eat a certain way and they taught you how to use the knife and the fork?” Well, they didn’t do that, but don’t slop it. Interviewer: “You say that you really didn‟t like it, the girls didn‟t really like it, but it was part of what you had to do.” You had to do it, you had no choice, and we just had to. Interviewer: “So, did that just happen? Did they do the charm school just a day or did they do it every day for a period of time?” For a while, but I truthfully don’t remember. Interviewer: “So, it wasn‟t just a one day thing, you had to go in there and they taught you one thing and then they taught you another thing? Yes Interviewer: Ok, alright, how was your first season?” 41:06 Well, the first season I did pretty good you know. Interviewer: “You were a rookie, right?” Yeah, right Interviewer: “Did you sit on the bench very much the first year?” I was right in there pretty much you know. As you will see by the card my earned run average was terrific, but if they didn’t get runs for you, you couldn’t win the game, right? Interviewer: “Oh yeah, and you started out as a pitcher, you were first string pitcher?” 8 �Well, we had I don’t know how many pitchers because you had a pretty good number of games you had to play, so we took our turns. 42:00 Interviewer: “You had home games and you had road trip games. How were the road trips?” They were good and we traveled the road trips by bus and stayed in hotels, but we stayed in the people’s homes there in Racine. Interviewer: “What did you think of the uniform?” Well, it was different you know, but we had to wear them, we had no choice, absolutely no choice. Interviewer: “Several of the girls said they had to adjust the dresses or skirts, or whatnot, because it‟s difficult to play ball that way. Did you do anything like that with your uniform?” If you notice in the pictures—I think it shows in the picture where—you know they were so full here they got in out way as we pitched, so it shows the uniform where we had to pin it down, so when we came through with the ball we weren’t in touch with the material. 43:07 Interviewer: “Yeah, so you started out playing underhand, right?” Oh yeah, Interviewer: “And it was a softball size?” A twelve inch, yeah. Interviewer: “You were already use to doing that though.” Yeah Interviewer: “Now after your first season, you came back home?” 9 �Oh yes, at the end of the season, yeah, I came back home again. Interviewer: “And what did you do?” Well eventually—after I retired, I retired after—I could have played—see, I played four years. I had a contract to go to the fifth, but my statistics, and I don’t mean to be bragging on you, but it was so good that the talk went through my mind that if I have a bad season I’m going to ruin everything, and this way I’m going out—and you will see the statistics, they were very good, and I didn’t want to do that, so I had the contract signed and everything and I said I wasn’t going to play any more and this was the end of my professional ball. 44:22 Interviewer: “We‟ll get back to that later on, but I want to get back to that first season. You played out the season, and then you came back home. Did you move back in with your parents or did you have to work?” I was with my parents you know. Interviewer: “Did you have to work?” I worked for Woolworth’s down on Front Street in Cuyahoga Falls. I started working and you know. Interviewer: “Did they know you were a baseball player?” Yeah, they did Interviewer: “Were you kind of a local celebrity?” 45:00 Well, we didn’t do that much celebrity at that time you know. Interviewer: “But it was unusual for a girl to be playing professional baseball.” Yes it was. 10 �Interviewer: “So the second season comes along and you get another contract playing for the same team?” Yes Interviewer: “So you move to Racine, and did you stay in the same house?” Yes, we were friends you know. The people, Conrad was their name, and they were just—they treated me so great. When we had a few days off or anything, and they would go out of town, they took me right with them and we enjoyed it, and we became—they had two daughters and even after I retired and everything—when I was playing ball the daughter always came to watch and after I retired they kept writing to me and we wrote back and forth—it was great. 46:01 Interviewer: “How was your second season? You‟re not a rookie anymore.” No I wasn’t, but I was treated great, absolutely great and that’s what everyone else is saying. Interviewer: “Are there any highlights or games that you remember that were exceptional? You said that you were a pretty good pitcher.” I was a good pitcher. The thing, the big thing that was really something was that I was allowed to bat. You know my left eye was blind and everything and I hit a home run. Unbelievable, I couldn’t believe it myself you know. That drew a lot of attention. Interviewer: “That‟s wonderful, that‟s wonderful. Sp then you‟re offered a third season, but this time you‟re playing with a different team?” Yes, because they were trying to equalize the teams and see what you could do, so I played the whole year with them and then I got to go back to Racine, which really tickled me because I loved playing with Racine. 47:11 11 �Interviewer: “What was the other team you played with?” Peoria Interviewer: “Peoria, ok. That was the third year you went to Peoria?” Yes Interviewer: “Ok, alright” Peoria, and then back to Racine again, and then I quit. Interviewer: “Was there a big difference in the playing from Racine to Peoria?” No, it was pretty much the same thing. Interviewer: “Were you still pitching underhand?” Yes, oh yes Interviewer: “So the side arm didn‟t come until later?” Yeah, I don’t know how many years later. Interviewer: “How were the fans?” Wonderful, oh my goodness, they couldn’t do enough for us. They would invite us to their homes, the whole team they would have coming to their home. They would invite us and just be wonderful. 48:04 Interviewer: “Now the beginning of the league, at least some of the stories were that the fans kind of thought it was a novelty, these girls playing baseball, did you experience that too?” A little, yeah Interviewer: “But soon, playing ball, they realized these are good players?” Right, yes they did. 12 �Interviewer: “So, in your third season, you‟re playing once again, were you thinking about this as a career?” No, never once Interviewer: “You did it because it was fun and they were paying you.” Yeah, I’ll tell yeah, we made a big, big salary. We got fifty dollars a week. Interviewer: “Were you able to send some money home?” Yeah, because when I grew up we didn’t have as much or anything else. We were kind of hard up and I always thought of my parents and sent a little bit of money. Interviewer: “At that stage in your life, what did you think you wanted to do? You‟re playing baseball and you‟re getting paid, but what is it you wanted to do?” 49:13 I had an idea that I wanted to go into my own little business at that young age and that’s exactly—I worked for Acme for a while and then I thought, “ well it’s about time that I start”, so I went around to the houses and picked up junk and I went into the dry cleaning business although I put it out to be done by other businesses that were doing it and I built a pretty darn good business. First I had a car and when I got a little money, I got a truck you know and I went around and gosh, the people were wonderful to me, they were. It was unusual to have a girl dry cleaner. 50:10 Interviewer: “So, your fourth year comes along and you‟re still playing with Racine, but you made a very important decision?” Yes I did, at the end. Interviewer: “Could you tell us—how did you come to that decision?” 13 �Well, just like I mentioned, I had very good statistics and man, they were great, for that time they were, and I got home and thought, “What if I have a bad year?” So, that’s when I quit. I worked around a little bit at stores like Acme you know, and then I thought, “I’m going into my own business”, and started a route of dry cleaning and I rented a little shop on Tallmadge Road in Cuyahoga Falls. Believe me or not, but I bought the place after a couple of years and I still have the place and that’s the story. 51:23 Interviewer: “Did you miss it, baseball?” Yeah, because we weren’t allowed to play on another team because we were considered professionals, but my brother Chuck, he was a—he worked for plumbing and heating, and they always had—every year they had a little shindig going on and they said, “Chuck, we want your sister to come down here and pitch for us, you know, we’ve never had any audience of any kind”, and he said, “I’m sure she will”, and so I did and eventually I was the CEO officer at the heating and plumbing for twenty years and I made a lot of friends down there because I just wasn’t allowed to play any more. 52:22 I had customers from there and it worked out real good. Interviewer: “What were some of the highlights? I mean, you get together with these gals for these reunions and what stories do you tell? A no hitter or?” The biggest thing for me that I tell, was hitting that one home run. That’s the greatest thing and no one believes it hardly because I was a lousy batter. Interviewer: “Most pitchers are.” Yeah 14 �Interviewer: “I was a pitcher too, in little league, and my claim to fame is that I got a homerun on a bunt.” On a bunt? Interviewer: “That‟s how bad the other team was, so I can appreciate your homerun there. I only had one in my life too. 53:24 Did you talk about being a professional baseball player after you left the league and were working in the dry cleaning?” No, because my intention was—we grew up poor, my family and my mom and dad had very little, and I wanted to do something where I could help my mom, I had the greatest mom in the world, absolutely, the super greatest mom in the world. We didn’t have much, but we had respect for each other and loved each other you know and we kind of went along that way. 54:03 Interviewer: “So, you were able to help support her?” Oh yes, because I didn’t get married until I was forty-nine, so that was a long way to go. Interviewer: “But you were a career woman I guess, from early on, and there weren‟t many career women around then.” 54:16 No there weren’t Interviewer: “did you already have that kind of drive before you played professional baseball or did professional baseball kind of help you to make that move into that?” I never thought of that and I wanted my mom to have it good because she was such a good soul. A terrific lady and my drive was to do something for my mom, and I did. Interviewer: “What did those four years do for you, playing baseball?” 15 �Well, I think it gave you a lot of—what it is when you feel good about yourself? Interviewer: “Confidence?” Yes, that’s it Interviewer: “Because you were a young girl.” Oh yeah Interviewer: “You played ball and you felt a little more confident.” Oh my goodness, yeah, and the fans, it was unbelievable; they lined up just to get your autograph. 55:20 That went on for the four years that I played. Interviewer: “Did you have fans that kind of picked you out and you were their favorite?” Well, yes, I don’t want to brag, but I’m not going to lie either. Oh, yeah, oh my goodness yes, they invited us out for dinner and everything, and it was really nice. Interviewer: „so you didn‟t really talk about the league, you didn‟t talk about being in baseball for many, many years?” Oh no, and I wasn’t allowed to play amateurs and it died out. Interviewer: “Right, but in terms of that part of your life, you were moving on and you were going to go and do other things.” Yes 56:08 Interviewer: “When did that change?” Well, it changed not too many years afterwards because I was always thinking, in my mind, what could I do to help my mom because she was such a good, good woman, so she could have a little better life than what she had, and yet, I never wanted to sound like I was bragging about anything because there was much, much love among us. 16 �Interviewer: “Did you know when the league ended? Did you see the newspapers or did you know in 1954 that it was all over with?” I don’t think I knew right away. I was out of there and I didn’t pay much attention to it. 57:02 Interviewer: “Did you keep in contact at all with any of the girls that you played with?” Eventually I did, but mostly with the family I stayed with. I was, oh my goodness, because we played near San Francisco, I got to love San Francisco because I went out there so much to see them and everything, and I would go out four times a year. It was only for a few days or a week and they always wanted me to come to their house and they would take me somewhere. We would go somewhere, you know, to enjoy ourselves. I was just great and I don’t know if I’m explaining it right or not. Interviewer: “Well, I think you‟ve seemed to developed a close and almost second family.” Yes, I did and I called them mom and pop and they wanted me to. Interviewer: “Did they have any opinion about your quitting baseball?” 58:01 Well, a lot of people didn’t want me to quit. They said they would love to see me stay and everything, but I just had a little bit different things I wanted to do in my life. Interviewer: “So you never saw baseball as a career?” Oh no, I never did and like I said, it did a lot of good after I told Bob Knolls that I was blind and he, and different ones, said that I have helped the kids through what I had said. There were some kids that could come and they wouldn’t be made fun of. See, I use to be called “four eyes’ all the time in grade school and that made me mad, so what I would 17 �do, because I had to wear glasses—a lot of kids had to pass my home to school from where I lived there was always a certain bunch you know. 59:10 It was “hello four eyes”, and everything and when they got to my house I said, “I’ll be out in a minute”, and I took off my glasses because I couldn’t afford to have them broke, and I would go out and say, “now call me four eyes”, and we had a few fights and I won. Interviewer: “Did you go to the first reunion, the All American Girls reunion?” I probably did, but truthfully, I can’t remember. Interviewer: “But you had some interest to want to see those girls again?” Oh my gosh, yeah Interviewer: “What changed? Was it just age? You were getting older and looking back on that time? :03 If it was only four years of your life, and you certainly accomplished a lot more afterwards, why would you be interested in getting back together with these people?” Because I had a good relationship with them and they treated me so good. They treated me like a daughter instead of somebody just coming into the house. Interviewer: “I mean with the teams. Going to the reunions with the teams.” Well, I didn’t go to that many though. Interviewer: “Did the movie change anything for you? You saw the movie?” Well, I saw it and I thought it was pretty neat, that was my impression. Interviewer: “How did you see it? Did you see it in a movie theater?” I was picked up by what do you call it? Interviewer: “A limousine?” A limousine, yeah 18 �Interviewer: “Who arranged for that?” Evidently before it came out we were invited to the premier. 1:28 Interviewer: “Tell that story, tell that story, yeah.” That was great and we were in a theater of some sort, I think it was a theater. Interviewer: “Had you ever been in a limousine before?" No Interviewer: “Tell the story.” I thought, “that can’t be me going in a limousine like that”, and then they were so great to me, it was just marvelous, and I thought, “My goodness, what’s happening?” Everything was just great and I think you have a picture of it there. 2:08 Interviewer: “So you arrive in a limousine at the theater and?” Everything—there was a lot of talking going on and they were just good to me and let me know that I was appreciated. Interviewer: “What did you think of the movie? Did you like it?” Yeah, it was pretty good, but Tom Hanks, he stretched it a little bit you know and I wasn’t a stretcher. Interviewer: “A lot of the girls say the movie changed everything and people suddenly knew who you guys were.” Yes it did and I was going to get to that and it made a really great name for all of us. 3:05 We were highly respected and of course when the boys came back from the war, and they had been in for quite a while then, but that’s what broke it up, the boys coming back. 19 �Interviewer: “What do you think about all this excitement? You‟re being treated, in many ways, like movie stars.” Yes we were treated like movie stars. Interviewer: “And you still are.” Yes, it’s unbelievable to think that something like that could happen. Interviewer: “why do you think there‟s all this excitement? You only played four year, why do you think people get so excited about this?” I don’t think the average person knew how well women could play, and they found out there was a lot going on there, they can really play good. We would slide into bases, but they didn’t want the pitcher to slide and get hurt, but that’s how I messed my knee up. 4:11 You have so much interest in the game that you don’t want to be out if you can slide and be safe. Does that make sense to you? Interviewer: “Yeah, yeah, one of the husbands of one of the players said he never got an opportunity to see his wife play until much later and like you said, you couldn‟t just go off and spend money going to see a baseball game, but he finally got a chance to see her and he said he had known her, her whole life, but he never realized she was such a good ball player.” Yes Interviewer: “So, I guess that‟s what the fans saw too, they saw a good baseball game, and you guys were pretty good at what you did.” We thought we were without being smart. I was never a bragger, but when they would say, “boy, that was a great game”, I would say, “Thank you”, it was pretty good wasn’t it?” 5:16 20 �Interviewer: “You went on to accomplish some major goals that you want to take care of your mother, you wanted to gain security, but if you look back on your whole life, where do those four years fit in? How important were they to you?” I think they were very important to me because they gave me a start. Fifty bucks a week, and the one manager we had, he said, and I never told this to people because I thought it sounded like bragging, he said I should be making more than the fifty dollars that everybody was making. He raised my pay every week, but I forget if it was seventy or seventy-five dollars, so I don’t want to say it was seventy-five if it was seventy, but it was one of the two definitely. 6:16 Oh my gosh, can you imagine getting that, that early in life? To make that much? I called home and oh my, everybody was happy. Interviewer: “one of the other questions that I have—the phenomenon that the movie created, put you in a whole different position than you were before. You were a ball player and now you‟re part of American history. I know you didn‟t think about it at the time, but how do you reflect on it now? People are saying to you that this is an important part of American history.” Yes, well, my first impression was, “I can’t believe it, are they saying that you’re part of history because of baseball?” At first I thought it had to be a dream and it’s super. 7:22 Interviewer: “It‟s kind of hard to think it‟s a dream when you come to these reunions.” My gosh, we are treated so great, it’s wonderful, but that’s what you think unless you’re a big bragger. Interviewer: “There‟s a big difference between bragging and just telling the truth and that‟s what it really comes down to and that‟s why I‟m here. I‟m not asking 21 �you to brag, I just want you to tell what you did and if that sounds like bragging to you, it‟s not bragging to me, I‟ll tell you that because you did it and there‟s proof. We know what all of you accomplished.” Yes Interviewer: “One of the main reasons I decided to do this project was because I saw some film footage of the Grand Rapids reunion in which a number of you were signing autographs and there‟s a line of little girls with their mothers holding on to them. What do you say to the little girls? What is the message you have for these younger girls that you see at these reunions?” 8:22 My thought is to always do the best you can for everything and when you do the best you can you will succeed. You might not be the best, but you won’t be the worst. I think that explains it. Interviewer: “There is something I want to talk about and it‟s major. It‟s something that happened to you and I don‟t even know you and yet I believe this. When that reporter came out and you revealed for the first time about your eye, why did you decide, at that point, you wanted to tell people?” 9:13 Because I wanted to let him know that I didn’t let that interfere and that I didn’t just lay down and forget about life and want people to be sorry for you. I never, never, never wanted people to feel sorry for me because that would have killed me. So, I went on all those years and when Bob Knoll put it in the Beacon Journal he said, “I’m telling you right now Jane, you’re doing the biggest favor for kids to be able to make an adjustment”, and it did, it did. I got an awful lot of publicity on that and the parents thought it was 22 �super great. It pleased me very much because I felt like I was a part of helping kids. 10:14 Interviewer: “How do your teammates, obviously you‟re not playing anymore, none of them knew, right?” No, none of my best friends and everything and when this all came out in the Beacon Journal they said, “Jane, all the years we’ve known you and you never said anything”, and I said, “well, what’s to say, I didn’t want anybody feeling sorry for me”, and I said, “Can you imagine, all I had to do was make an error”, and you’re dead. That was about it, I just didn’t want anybody to feel sorry for me and say, “oh well”, and to be extra nice to me because I was that way. I guess that’s it. 11:04 Interviewer: ”How difficult was it playing with one eye?” I never even considered it because I just went on and hoped to do the best I can. I’m not a religious nut or anything, but I thank God so many times that I was allowed to just get started and my big, big thrill was that kids who never had a chance at least get a chance, and that did something to my whole body and I felt great. Interviewer: “Now, if this is getting too personal you don‟t have to say anything, but you said you took until you were forty-eight until you got married.” Forty-nine Interviewer: “Forty-nine, why this guy?” I had my dry cleaning business going and I was golfing and this guy ended up, he use to watch me golf, so he asked the guy that owns Tommy’s Café there in the falls who that lady over there was and he said, “I know her, that’s Jane Badini”, and he said, “she has a dry cleaning shop”, and he said that he would like to talk to me and take me out, so he 23 �came over to my shop and started bringing in his dry cleaning and laundry and everything. 12:50 He started talking with me and I had talked with him a few times and a friend of mine said, “Jane, he’s a nice guy and when you feel like it, he wants you to go out with him”. I said, “thanks a lot”, so when he came in, and I don’t know how many times he asked me out, so after I knew that he was a nice guy, he came in and said, “Will you please go out on a date with me?” I said, “sure I will”, and we went out and we just started going together and everything clicked and we got married. Interviewer: “Wonderful, that‟s wonderful. I have one story that might top that one. A very good friend of mine, who is a volunteer who works on this Library of congress project and he‟s eighty years old now I think. He did the same thing, his wife worked in a bakery and he came in and asked her out and she said, “no, no, I‟m too busy”, so one day he came in with a used calendar and he said, “find one day on here”, and they got married. 14:07 That’s great, that’s nice. Interviewer: “They‟re still together and I love that story.” Have you ever heard of Tommy’s Café years ago in Cuyahoga Falls? Interviewer: “No” He worked for Tommy and he was next to the younger Tommy and the next man in the link. Interviewer: “Did you tell him about your baseball career?” No, oh no, I never did, I mean it took a long time because I never wanted anybody to think I was bragging and I just was sincere about that. I didn’t want anybody to like me because I was a ball player and if you’re going to like me, like me for who I am. 24 �Interviewer: “Well, I think you‟re real easy to like.” Oh, thank you so much, I appreciate that. Interviewer: “This was a wonderful, wonderful time with you and thank you.” 15:06 Thank you very much. 25 �26 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_JBadini Title A name given to the resource Badini, Jane Jacobs (Interview transcript and video, 2010) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Badini, Jane Jacobs Description An account of the resource Jane Jacobs Badini was born in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio, in 1924. She grew up playing softball, first with her brothers, and later with organized teams. She was a talented pitcher, and one of the players recruited by the AAGPBL when it was formed in 1943. She played in the league for four years, primarily with Racine, before leaving and starting her own business. The audio on this recording has significant noise interference. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Illinois Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp4 pdf Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant World War II Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-08-05 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/87f9f709762b06e5b8c39f0fb8487e7e.mp4 1abcbc02dd4ca54e5711968b8b535dfa https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f8a7c7451ee4fe9215968d2234e1bea9.pdf 8eab3cbbe6004f009ad1fd5aee69e96d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans History Project Interviewee’s Name: Jacqueline Baumgart Length of Interview: (01:28:17) Interviewed by: Frank Boring, Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Transcribed by: Joan Raymer February 20, 2010 Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like?” Hard. Interviewer: “In what way?” It was very hard. We were eight and I was the youngest of eight and I did not have a father, so the whole time during the depression was very, very difficult. Interviewer: “What did your mother do to support you?” She did washing clothes, ironing clothes, house cleaning. That’s what she knew how to do and in those days—women, that’s pretty much what they did with a fifth grade education. Interviewer: “What was school like before high school?” 1:38 Before high school, I got into trouble a lot because I wanted to play ball and I wanted to kick the ball and play ball and do what all the boys were doing. I grew up with boys, brothers, and so I tagged along, a few feet behind, but I tagged along. We played a lot of softball and scrub games and that’s how I learned how to play and whenever they didn’t have enough players, they let me play. 2:17 I was little, I was very, very little and when they let me play, they put me in the outfield because they didn’t have to shag the ball and then I learned how to throw very long and hard because I was throwing the ball back in and that’s how I really learned how. By playing with the boys, it gave me an opportunity to develop physically, because, like I said, I was very, very small. 2:57 Interviewer: “The town you grew up in, was it a very big town or was it a small town?” It was a small town. Waukegan is located between Milwaukee and Chicago and very near there was the Great Lakes Training Center and not too far from there was Fort Sheridan and so, it was just a small town and in fact very close to Kenosha, where I wound up playing and about the same size. 3:30 Interviewer: “How about high school, how was high school for you?” High school was very, very interesting. I moved to Milwaukee in March of 1942. 1 �Interviewer: “Your whole family?” No, I had a sister living in Milwaukee and two of my brothers went into the service and mother had received a widow’s pension and that kind of decreased a little bit when they went into service, so I moved to Milwaukee to live with a sister and from there, which was a great thing because that helped me develop differently than what I would have in Waukegan. I had playgrounds to play on. 4:16 You couldn’t play in the schools in competition, but we could play on the playgrounds in the summer and I fortunately—the alley behind the house had a common fence, with the alley and the playground and so when my sister asked me to take the garbage out, I said “sure”, because I took the garbage out and I was gone. That’s how I started and there were two gentlemen that had worked with the Milwaukee recreation department and the playgrounds had directors and one was Bunny Brief and one was Jack Chlossa, both professional ball players, because we were going from playground to playground, and they said, “I think we’ll take you out to West Allis”, which is a suburb, because they had a fast pitch softball league there. They took me out there and I got on the team right away— Interviewer: “Now by team—is this a girls team?” 5:25 A girls team. I finally found that I was good at something, because you don’t know, you’re always playing with the boys and it’s a different kind of competition when you do that. The boys say that you are only a girl and I had to live through that and that develops a certain kind of tenacity in you and so when I went to West Allis, they had about eight softball teams, fast pitch, and the first year that I was there, we won the state championship. My mother came into town and it was the first and only game that she saw was winning, winning my first championship. 6:17 One to nothing on a balk. That’s the kind of close competitive games that I was learning all the while. Interviewer: “Now, after the game, what did your mother have to say?” Not too much, she really—it was indifferent to her, she didn’t really know anything about sports, particularly women playing sport, and she just thought it was nice, everybody treated me nice, so that was her main important thought. She didn’t live with us in Milwaukee; she went back to Waukegan and was living there. 7:01 Interviewer: “What position were you playing by this time?” A catcher. Interviewer: “Were you always a catcher?” No, I was always everything and that’s how I grew up, to play every position. I played every position and I actually became a catcher during the wintertime when we were playing inside a gym with a different kind of ball—it was a little bit larger ball than a softball, it had an out seam to it and a little softer, I mean it wasn’t had at all and I was just playing in the outfield, but they all knew that I wanted to play and that I could play 2 �anywhere. At one point a pitcher wasn’t doing too good, so the catcher became the pitcher and then they said, “Well, who wants to catch?” All eyes came this was, I mean I didn’t have to say much of anything, so I went into catch, well, I dropped the first foul ball, “tip’ you know, and I realized that I had to keep my eyes open because you flinch and that’s an automatic response and I said, “I have to keep my eyes open”. 8:20 By the end of the game there was a foul ball and I caught it and from then on, I was a catcher. Those are the kinds of things that happen that lead you in a direction. Coming to Milwaukee, doing something like that as a catcher, staying a catcher, going out to West Allis, being pointed the way; it has an awful lot of importance for my development. 8:49 Interviewer: “Now how old were you at this time? This was still high school?” I was in—yes; I was about fifteen and a half, sixteen, something like that. Interviewer: “So you’re going to high school, you’re playing ball with this group? What happened next? Did you graduate from high school?” I graduated from high school and then I was working and playing out in WestAllis, softball, and we began to start playing baseball and we were playing in West Milwaukee, which is between West Milwaukee and West Allis in terms of property lines and during that time I was scouted for the All American Girls Baseball League. 9:54 Interviewer: “Did you know anything about this group prior to that?” I knew a little bit because some had started to come back from playing professional ball and we had to wait a year or two before you could play amateur again. I knew that they had played and I knew that Milwaukee had had a team. I became a knotholer because we didn’t have any money, nobody had any money and I was a catcher and another lady, Edna Shear, lived in Cedarburg another suburb and we both were scouted. I didn’t know, we didn’t know we were scouted and I got a card in the wintertime, close to winter, and it said to go to someplace in Pennsylvania or Newark, New Jersey. 10:53 I didn’t know that Edna had received a card and her card said Chicago was where she was supposed to go. Well, I wanted to play, so I borrowed some money, took a train and went to Newark, New Jersey all by myself and my world wasn’t any larger than from Waukegan to Milwaukee, which is about forty-five minutes away. 11:22 Interviewer: “Now, just previous to that, you’re still living with your sister.” Yes. Interviewer: “So, did you talk it over with her at all? Did you have anybody that you talked about going to New Jersey?” No, I just went. I borrowed money from a sister that was living in Waukegan and she was married to a dentist, so I figured they had a little bit of money and sure enough it was either fifty or sixty dollars that I borrowed. To go. 11:51 3 �Interviewer: “So you arrive in New Jersey, what was your first impression of New Jersey?” Big, huge—where do I put my foot next? Sounds are so different, very, very different. Speaking the English language was different—in “New Joyzee” you know, that was a little bit different, but I was met at the train by I think it was three, of the ball players and they were part of the recruiting and all of that. They took me to a gym, an inside gym, just like the movie and I tried out, I had my glove, a catche’rs glove, and we went up against the wall and then we went one by one and there was a black lady sitting next to me and she didn’t have a glove, so she asked if she could use my glove and I said, “ yes, but it’s a catchers glove”, and she said, “that’s ok”, so she went and she came back and I went and the three of them took me out to dinner after that because I was staying in a private home. 13:17 Interviewer: “The three originals that picked you up at the railroad station?” Yes. They were the only contacts that I had. They asked me, “was that your glove or her glove?” I said, “it was my glove”, and then they said, “Oh, we don’t do that”. That was my first introduction into how people felt about other people, because where I grew up in Waukegan, we were pretty much a mixed group and for me there wasn’t any kind of distinction when you were going to play ball or whatever, so that was very upsetting for me. 14:05 Interviewer: “In that particular gym, you mentioned yourself and then there was a black woman there too, were there other women there trying out? About how many?” There were probably twelve to fifteen or something like that. Interviewer: “But there was actually one black woman in there?” Yes, one black woman. Interviewer: “Wow, do you know what ever happened to her?” No. Interviewer: “After you had the dinner with the three, you went back to the host home and you stayed overnight, what happened next?” I just went to the train again and came back. One of the things that I just very well remember was going through the oil city in Pennsylvania—you could smell it—it’s a whole new smell, everything was so new and so different. 15:05 When you’re by yourself, you learn how to—what to accept and what not too. I’m a survivor of a lot of things and was attuned to a lot of things going on and very much a real experience. For one to grow up at that age, very impressionable and I take everything in, like you learn how to steal second or something. 4 �Interviewer: “Once you got back home to Milwaukee, was there another communication of some kind?” 15:57 Yes, before spring training I got another card and it said to go to South Bend, Indiana and I met about sixty girls there and we had a spring training. Spring training wasn’t easy it was very hard. Interviewer: “Tell us, first of all keep in mind, you were there and we weren’t, so I kind of want to visualize your arriving there were sixty girls there. Give us—take us there to spring training.” 16:29 Spring training—early in the morning and we would go until noon, we had a light lunch and only because I was thin, if they had a little extra couple of cups of ice cream they would say, “here you need this”, and we had a little bit of rest period because we ate and then it was all afternoon again until four o’clock, we never let up. We didn’t play an actual game, but it was like an infield practice. You went to a position or you said you wanted to go and you played that however the manager wanted it to go, because it wasn’t a game, it was—he was almost actually teaching us. He wanted to know what we really knew and how we would think and respond to the ball and other players and to managing, how we would respond to directions. 17:40 After that I was told to go to Racine to meet up with Rockford. Interviewer: “So, at spring training—I know a lot of these answers, but I still want to get it for the record. The spring training, you did not have a team yet, you were not on a team yet?” Not yet, no. Interviewer: “So the girls were all playing different positions to see which ones they could play well or not well and then a decision was made as to what team you’re going to play on?” Right. Interviewer: “What were you wearing during spring training?” 18:10 Just jeans and shorts depending on how warm it was. Interviewer: “But it wasn’t uniforms, just whatever you brought to play is what you wore?” Right. Interviewer: “So the spring training was completed and they let you know that you were now a?” I went to Rockford—actually Rockford was in Racine and so that’s where I went and I was there for a week and I was under the tutelage of Bill Allington, I learned more from him in one week than I did in all the time before. As we look back at it now it has to do with—we came with the skills and the professional men managers helped us become 5 �professionals. A lot of little things that you never think of, if you get into bad habits naturally in terms of batting and throwing. 19:14 Interviewer: “Give me an example of maybe one of the ones that you learned. You say that you learned more in that week, well, give me an idea, what did you learn?” One in particular, because I was a catcher and we would have an infield practice and all of a sudden he threw the ball down on the ground and I took that to be a bunt, which it was, so I hopped right after it I picked it up and I went like this and then I let it go and he did it again and I did the same thing and he said, “now what did you do that for?” I said, “What do you mean?” He said, “you put your hand into the glove and then you throw the ball. That runner has got a whole step and a half on you.” You don’t think about those things when you’re just playing and learning a little bit, just a natural by osmosis thinking The managers we had playing fast pitch were good managers, but they weren’t teaching us anything. 20:18 They just taught us about some things as the game moved along. You really weren’t learning like we learned in the professional league and of course I listened. I did that all my life was to watch and listen and from that I learned an awful lot. Now the other thing was in hitting, I stood too far in the back and he said, “you got to move up a little bit and choke up a little bit. You got to be brave and go all the way down to the bottom of the bat. Just choke up a little bit because then you have more balance at the end of the bat. We have to learn to hit and bat according to our bodies what we can do and what we can’t do it isn’t all show. If you want to play, you play, you don’t act up.” 21:18 Interviewer: “Good advice” It is and he didn’t mean it in the sense of show off, he meant it in the sense of getting out of bad habits. Interviewer: “Let me ask you a question and this may sound like an unfair question and you don’t have an answer for it, but he’s a professional male baseball player and he’s working with you as a very young girl. Did you get any sense that he was treating you like a girl or treating you like a baseball player?” Like a baseball player, because he knew his positions as a manager and what it probably might have been like for him when he started out being a professional. It’s a transitional period and he knew how to do that. He also knew that you had to learn not only how to play, but the intricacies of the game, the whole game, the whole thing, whether you were catcher or first baseman, pitcher or an outfielder, you learned it all, everything that’s going on because three things, 1 is the ball, naturally, there is no play without the ball, 2nd is accuracy, if you’re going to play, you don’t just throw, you concentrate, not too hard, but you concentrate on where you’re going to throw that ball and the 3rd one is to think where you’re going to throw that ball, when are you going to throw the ball and to be ready to receive. 23:02 For him those were the three most important things. They are very, very basic, they don’t get anymore basic than that, and it will take you a long way. The other thing he pointed out was that you are on the field playing and the manager is watching all of this and the manager doesn’t miss a trick and so if you think you’re going 6 �to fluff off, it doesn’t work because the manager sees what you are doing and those are some of the little things that make you a professional ball player. 23:51 Interviewer: “Once the spring training was over with and you were chosen to be on the team, what was the process of getting your uniform and do you remember what it was like to see your uniform for the first time?” After that I was sent to Chicago, excuse me, the northern part of Chicago, and most of the girls I met in South Bend were there. They were choosing thirty girls to make up two teams, so that means that there are fifteen players on a team, that’s all we had. I was chosen as a Springfield Sally and only because we had the uniforms. They tried a team in Springfield and it didn’t work and the other team was called the Chicago Colleens because Chicago had a professional team. It wasn’t baseball, it was fast pitch softball and they set-up a perimeter and around that perimeter, we couldn’t play anywhere near there because it was an infringement, so they put us on a bus, thirty of us girls, the two women chaperones managers, a man manager, sometimes the business manager, and sent us all east of the Mississippi and into Canada. 25:28 I probably was one of the older ones and another Cuban girl was, I think, about twenty-four. I think I was going on twenty-one or something like that, but the others were all younger. What it was—it was a traveling team to gain experience playing professional baseball. In the towns that we played, they had charities that they gave money to and then to have tryouts. Every time we went someplace, there were tryouts and when we came back to Cleveland, I think it was, we just went home. 26:26 Interviewer: “So it was two teams of fifteen, traveling and playing each other?” Yes. Everyplace you were just playing each other, playing each other. You were actually getting back on the bus together, so you had the camaraderie of being on a team, but you would separate out and play each other?” Yes. That’s a learning process, a growing process because we were from all over the United States and Cuba. The whole experience is more than an experience. That’s how I look at it, it became a way of life because you ate baseball and played baseball, slept baseball, we went from one town to the next town and very seldom were we two nights in the same town. 27:30 We never read the write-ups you know. Interviewer: “Give me an idea, I know this might sound dull, but what’s the routine? You get up in the morning, you get on the bus, you go—walk us through a typical day when you go on one of those excursions and how it was.” Well, you know it depended on how late we got in from one town to the other, especially going in and through the mountains. Sometimes we would be like six in the morning coming in, so we went to bed. I went to bed early because I needed my eight hours. We would get up, we ate together in different restaurants and places and we then would rest because we couldn’t eat sooner than two hours before we were going to play, so that was kind of a restful time, lounging time, and that was a time when we weren’t in close proximities in what we were doing and we maybe went to a movie or something and 7 �chose different things. 28:53 We would then get dressed and ready to go onto the bus and the bus would take us to the ball park and then we would work out and I mean work out, and then play a game and shower, find a place to eat, travel, depending on how far we had to go, and the next day the same thing. 29:20 There was sometimes a little long time in a city depending on how far it was and what time was and how long it took to get there. We still had to take care of our own clothes. Interviewer: “Wash your own clothes and stuff, wow.” We would go to a Laundromat, but not the uniform. Interviewer: “How did the uniform get cleaned?” I don’t know--the managers took care of that. They took it to a Laundromat or where ever they could. 29:50 Interviewer: “What were the fans like?” Very good. In the towns that we were in, they had either a double A or a triple A team and the diamonds that we played on were good, which was a nice thing. Interviewer: “You were obviously getting locals that came out to see the teams. Did you have a lot of girls, women or men or was it more mixed?” It was mixed, more men than what they might have now because it wasn’t as popular and we were sort of an entertainment or a show of some kind and people wanted to see what we were all about. There was advance publicity and quite often we had more fans then the home team that played there because we were playing when they were out of town. 30:55 We would hear that and when we made a good play we were rewarded with—it was like a whole surprise for them to see that because we were very good and we came with the skills and we were naturals. We also exhibited the joy that we had in playing even though we played the same team all the time; we were still growing and learning. 31:30 Interviewer: “The two teams were they exactly the same or did you switch over and play catcher for one and then play catcher for another or was it always the same group playing against the same team?” Yes. Interviewer: “That makes sense, so once that was over with and you went back to Milwaukee, then what happened? What was the next stop in all of this?” I got a card. I got another card because all thirty of us were put in the “pot” so to speak and the teams told—this one and that one, and I was asked to go to Kalamazoo, Michigan, so I want to spring training there and Kenosha didn’t have a catcher at that time, so I was catching for Kenosha even though I belonged to Kalamazoo and after spring training Kenosha bought my contract, whatever that was, because when I signed the contract it was blank. You never knew what you were getting or anything else, you just signed the contract and you were going to play ball. 32:39 8 �Interviewer: “Now if you’re playing for two different teams, what was the uniform?” The same uniform except in a sense it was Kalamazoo and I’m trying to remember that part of it because I don’t remember it being any different. When I went to Kenosha, I had their regular uniform. Interviewer: “Now, on the touring team with the thirty of you, you were already a professional baseball player, but now with the new team, this is now the American— the league, so this is different, did you have any sense of going from this to this or were you just going to keep playing baseball?” 33:45 There was a little bit of that yes, because you’re coming into an already—a team that is in place, so there’s a lot of difference coming to a team than what we did, because we were all new to each other in terms of what we were going to do and this team was already in place. They already had their own ways of what they were doing and who they get along with, where they go and now we have a home place and then we have on the road, so your monies are different, you take care of your own stuff when you’re at home and on the road you get a per dium I call it. 34:35 We all got pretty much the same for that. Interviewer: “Well, as the newcomer into this team, how did you get along?” Quietly. Quietly in a sense of interaction. More quiet—you have a different manager, everybody has their own style, how they do things and I had to learn all that. It wasn’t too hard to learn it, but you had to learn the differences. Some managers manage a lot and some managers manage a little and they kind of let you play. It was about the same thing with the players because they’re older, not much, but they had been playing, so they have a couple of years under their belt and you’re a “rookie”, you’re a “rookie”. I still had to carry the bats and things. From my own growing up and my formative years, I learned how to understand where my place is wherever I am and whomever I’m with. 36:11 That part wasn’t too hard, I could read that and I knew that because I’m a survivor. You do make friends in the sense of hanging with some more than you do others and I think there were three or four “rookies” on the team in Kenosha, so we kind of hung together for a while. Interviewer: “Was there a point and I know this is kind of a difficult question because it’s so specific, you’re a “rookie”, was there a moment, was there a period of time when you felt like you were no longer a “rookie” and whatever you were doing the went, “oh, she’s good”? 37:05 I got a hit—see, I was a straight away hitter, I wasn’t a long distance hitter, partly because of my weight and you’re the catcher so you bat eighth and I smacked one over the second baseman’s head, because we were playing baseball rules now, we’re a bigger diamond, we’re not on the softball diamond and I got to first base and I said, “It’s about time”, and I remember it so distinctly and it’s a great, great feeling to do that. I didn’t 9 �throw anybody out at second, but I was pretty close a couple of times and that is a great moral builder for me anyway. 38:00 Interviewer: “You felt different, but did you notice a difference also from the other players that you were treated a little bit differently?” Sure, because we’re a team and that’s how you become a team is learning to play together and giving lots of kudos when they’re necessary and I never experienced any player getting down on a another player like, “what did you do that for?” You were the one that made the mistake, so there was none of that and most managers wouldn’t allow that. We learned how to be a team by practice and you practiced as hard as you played, you didn’t sluff-off. 39:04 For me as a catcher, one of the most marvelous things that can happen and the joy really comes out, is when we have infield practice and you “around the horn” as we called it, after a certain ply and then you “zip” to first, second, third, back, back down to second for the shortstop and over to first or the opposite, because when we played we ‘zipped” the ball, we didn’t just throw, we “zipped” it. 39:37 Interviewer: “Now by this time the charm school and all that had been over with or did you have to do that too?” No, I didn’t have to do that. Interviewer: “You knew about it or you heard about it though?” Yes, I heard a lot bout it. Interviewer: “What do you mean, you heard a lot about it?” Well, they would tell little stories about having to walk down steps with a book on your head and they thought how ridiculous. Well, how do you walk down the steps with a book on your head and a “Charlie horse”? It’s bad enough with just the book on your head. If you had a sore leg or something then—and the next time you walk down steps what are you looking at? You look down like this and you can’t keep a book on your head when you do that. That usually pretty much what they talked about and the etiquette part. They didn’t like—I eat like I eat like I eat and there were a lot of jokes about different things and we took it all in and it’s a part of the camaraderie, we had great camaraderie and we still do. 41:00 Interviewer: “Tell me about strawberries.” I didn’t do too much sliding because of my position in the batting order, but I did have some when I got on, they weren’t really strawberries, they were more or less things that—you know when somebody’s coming into home and sliding in home, we didn’t go head first, we had hook slides, so you had to—I learned from Mr. Allington, I learned because I was—I didn’t want to get bowled over, so what he taught me was to give him just a little corner and to turn sideways so that I don’t have the full force and you turn sideways because then you’re in a position to move your legs and go wherever you need to go after the ball, but there still were collisions and things like that because you don’t 10 �know where the balls coming from when you begin and I did get knocked over one time in pro, but it was just the nature of the game. 42:38 Very much how the play happened, developed and happened. There was nothing like foul play or anything like that; we purposely didn’t do those things. Interviewer: “What did you think of the uniform?” I’ll have to tell you, the first time I put that uniform on, I cried because what flooded in my mind was of this little kid at home playing with the boys and here I am—I get teary eyed just thinking about it because it was never a dream to become a professional ball player, the dream was to survive, the dream was to do the best you can in whatever you do—lit was like winning a game, when you win—oh, that’s great. This was my own kind of winning and I kind of stood there for a little bit after I was dressed and I said, “Ah, this is it, this is it”, and I never forgot that. 44:07 Interviewer: “So the actual design and all that didn’t bother you?” It did to some degree; it did all of us to some degree because we never played in a skirt fashion. It was all one piece, but it was a skirt on the bottom, there were no legs to go into, but you had to learn how to play with it, especially some of the pitchers when they would begin throwing side arm, it just gets in the way, so each one developed a way in which to fix their uniform either by shortening it a little bit. I had two tucks here and two tucks in the back so that it would fit comfortably. 45:04 They weren’t tight fitting at all because we didn’t like that and we didn’t want that at all. It was heavy, it was like heavy denim and very warm in the summer, in the hot summer, it was very, very warm. Interviewer: “You had talked about the fan of the traveling team, can you recall the fans of the team when you went pro?” 45:34 Yes, because there were fans that came all the time and there were some fans that came once in a while and some of the fans treated some of the ball players very well. A little money under the table or whatever, invited over to their houses for picnics and stuff like that if time provided for that, but we didn’t have too much time for that, but they were very, very good to us. The regulars were very good to us. 46:16 Interviewer: “You mentioned earlier about the traveling team, that it was a mixture of men and women and things, the professional team you played for, where the fans, the majority of them, men or women or what?” A few more women because we were in one place and they get to know you and they have favorites like any team does have favorites and we played excellent baseball. We weren’t just entertainment as we were in the beginning, we still were, but not to the extent, we did what the Brewers do today, but not to that extent. 47:13 Interviewer: “I understand what you’re saying. I think it is really important what you are saying, that you were still entertainment, but now you’re baseball players 11 �and their watching it for the baseball, professional baseball. In your first season you told about that one time that you whacked that ball out there, were there any other particular ones that you can recall that really stick out either on your end or what you saw?” 47:37 It had to do with the pitchers because I was little. I remember Jeanie Marlow in Kenosha, she had a screwball, it’s opposite of a curve and they don’t throw it very often, so anyway about the third batter, it was early in the season and a new team came in and I don’t even know who the team was, so I gave her the number one sign because that’s a fast ball and just plain ball and she shook it off and I was wondering what was going on, so I knew she didn’t want a curve, so I gave her number two and she shook it off and I gave her the change up and she shook it off and I gave her the screw ball and I just went through the whole thing and she kept shaking it off, so I called time and I went to see her and I said, “can you see the signs?” 48:45 She said, “oh yea, I can see the signs ok”, and I said, “can you see me ok?” We’re starting to loosen up and josh one another and I said, “what’s the problem?” She said, “Oh, I just wanted to confuse the batter”. Those are the moments of the different little things that one does in a professional league. Now that might not have happened with another pitcher, with another pitcher it might be something else or I might get a sign from a pitcher instead of me giving a sign to the pitcher. That didn’t happen very often though. 49:33 Interviewer: “When was it, maybe in your first season, or was it later, that you started to think that maybe this was going to be your career or did you even think that?” I never thought it; I was just doing what I loved to do. I just never thought of it. I came back to Milwaukee and I had to work. I did a little bit of coaching with some younger kids and played a little bit of slow pitch baseball. Interviewer: “There’s no comparison.” No, heavens no there isn’t, but that’s what was going on at that time and that went on to become a pretty popular thing, so I was staying in the activity of the game and then I got married and raised children. It isn’t that I didn’t think about playing professional ball, but we never talked about it. Bob knew when I married him, but we didn’t talk and I think that if you ask that question to everyone of us they would say the same thing. 50:53 We just went about our business, it was grand, beautiful and we didn’t have that sense that we were setting standards or overcoming barriers, we just did it. You really didn’t know the historical impact on things until much later and my three boys—I had a ten inch ball that was signed by the teams and it was upstairs, so they used the ball and used my glove, they couldn’t use my shoes of course, and I said, “oh, you can’t use that ball, can’t you see those signatures on there? That’s when I played professional”, and they said, “oh yea mom”. 51:50 Well, that was the opening of saying a little bit about what I did and I said, “well, I played professional ball”, and they said, “yea, yea”, you know how boys are, but they do know now and they’re very proud of that and they relay that to other people very easily if we’re out in a group of some kind. One of them will 12 �say, “oh my mom played pro”, and I say, “here we go”. My husband did a lot of that, but I didn’t do it. I’m learning how a little bit and I pick my times if it’s called for, then I might. 52:55 I don’t just advertise it and I do give a lot of talks to different groups, very different kinds of groups and they love to hear about it and that’s a whole new experience for us again. When you do that you learn the impact of what we did and the style that we did that. 53:33 Interviewer: “I want to get back to the—you’ve gone through your first season now ok? How many seasons did you actually play with that team? You were with Kenosha right? How long did you play with them?” It was two, one season with them and one season before that. Kenosha in 1951 dropped out of the league. Interviewer: “Where did you go from there?” To work. Interviewer: “You didn’t play again?” I didn’t play again. 54:02 It folded, it was terrible and I thought the whole league was folding, but we went until 1954, but it was absolutely terrible. Interviewer: “I guess and I don’t want to go somewhere that you don’t want to go, but what caught me by surprise was that for some reason I thought after Kenosha you went on to play for another baseball team. Why not?” Because the Racine Belles were already out and you had less teams and you don’t need that many ball players and I couldn’t wait, I had to go to work and send money home and stuff like that and I just—it’s over. One has to understand how the move from one thing to another because I did a lot of moving in my life and I learned how to accept something and just move on. 55:20 Interviewer: “Did you see the end coming to the league? You said that in 1951 you out.” A little bit within our own team and near the end we weren’t sure we were going to get paid and that sort of thing and then sometimes the chaperone became the manager and that sort of thing. By that time there wasn’t an over arching league ownership, by that time each team had to take care of themselves and I think that was in 1948 or something like that. Looking back on it, it was pretty much the access and it was going to end and there was some talk about it. 56:17 Interviewer: “You said that you went back to work and you said that very quickly and how difficult was it when it ended? It’s over, it’s ended and you’re going back to work now, what was your reaction?” 13 �You go kick stones, walk the beach and mull things over and cry a little, but one is quickly drawn into a different kind of life style. You can’t stay there very long—I had to go on and put bread in the mouth so to speak. We did have some contact with other ball players and we’re all commiserating about the loss, our joy, our inner joy, play and just learned how to accept it with clenched teeth. 57:36 Interviewer: “I don’t know about you, but for me it really hit me hard because in a sense when you talk about going to slow pitch, that’s a huge drop and that had to be hard to do. I never played professional baseball, but I went through a transition and from playing to doing slow pitch I just went, “huh, what is this?” What it does—that’s part of the transition and it wasn’t what it was called and what we were doing, we were playing. We had the activity, this little child here was out doing something—playing whatever she could play and the joy of the activity and the movement of the body and being able to give expression to the body and I was still able to do that and then I could coach some of that. That’s small little transitions that you don’t know are happening, but they are you could still throw the ball, you could still bat the ball and I could still throw and I’ve never had a sore arm because you take care of yourself and when I throw, I use my body along with it, I’m not just all arm and that’s a thrill. 59:09 It is a thrill to throw the ball because the whole sense of the body is active and that’s what helped me to stop kicking stones. Interviewer: “I’m going to ask you a personal question and if you don’t want to answer it, please don’t, but you mentioned earlier that you told your husband Bob about being a ball player. How did you two meet and did he know you were a ball player? Is there a connection there?” He didn’t know. A fellow came to work where I was working that had worked where he was, at a company that he worked at for thirty six years, and he played golf, they had their own golf team, and Paul and I had already made arrangements to go golfing on Thursday with his wife and they golfed on Wednesday, so he came to work the next day and said, “Do you mind of somebody else comes along to make a foursome? :12 I said, “that’s fine”, so I left work and went home and changed my clothes and met him on the golf course and went to Paul’s house afterwards and had a light lunch and then he was on vacation someplace and about two or three weeks later Paul comes to me and said, “could I give him your phone number?” I said, “is that Bob?” And he said it was and I said, “ok” because I had to know who it was and I made my own decisions around those things. 1:02 On our first date we went to a Packer game, a Packer game here in Milwaukee at the old Marquette Stadium and it was a kind of foggy, rainy night, but the Packers won, it was that Bishops game, and then we met Paul and Fran downtown and we had dinner and danced and all of that. We went together pretty well after that and that was in August and I was engaged in October and married in January. All from meeting on the golf course. 1:52 Interviewer: “When did you tell him about being a baseball player?” 14 �I don’t really remember, but not too long after that because he knew that I was interested in sports and he played softball and I think he got the idea that to get to me we had to participate in sports and I think it just kind of came out in natural conversation. Interviewer: “In the earlier conversation we were having, you said that he liked to talk about the fact that you were playing baseball.” Yes, because I wouldn’t and he was proud of that and most of the players, when they left, didn’t talk about it much. If they did any talking, they did it with each other if they were in contact with one another. 2:57 Interviewer: “I’m so pleased to hear your boys and that they seemed to like the fact that mom played baseball professionally too.” They have come a long way with that. They were very young and I taught them a lot of things. I think they gradually came to understand that I knew something because I was teaching them. They played a little ball, but they liked swimming and auto mechanics and all that sort of stuff and I learned then what was happening to me when I was little. I wanted to do what I wanted to do and each individual boy does, they’re all mechanics and machinists, but they’ve learned to be their own person and they are very different. 3:48 Interviewer: “This is going to be a tougher question digging into your memory, but when did you first start and I don’t need a date or anything, but when did you first start realizing, after the fact, what you had participated in, enjoyed so much, was very proud of, but still didn’t talk a whole lot about, other people were starting to go, “Hey, did you know about that?” When did you first realize that you guys participated in something that you didn’t think was very important at the time, but a lot of other people were?” 4:27 See I, because I had a married name, they didn’t catch up with me for a while and so when I found out that we were in the Hall of Fame. Interviewer: “You didn’t know?” I didn’t know. I was at a house with Marge Peters, who had played before me in 1944, and she didn’t know that I had played because I was in 1950 and 1951, so they were always looking for different ones and a group of us were together at her house and there was a long hallway and there was her wall of honor and my picture was up there and so she told me and she showed me the video from Cooperstown. 5:16 Well, I’ll tell you, I beat my chest. I just beat my chest because “this little one”, which I was called, did something, I said, “I wish my mother was here now” because she really didn’t approve, but she knew that I needed to do those things and we finally agreed to that. 6:06 I think that when you do what you really love to do that it is a gift and when we exercise and grow out of our gifts, that’s where we go in life and there’s a different joy in learning that than there is the playing. The joy is monumentus, it’s like “this little kid did it” you 15 �know because I had to prove myself all the time. 6:52 All the time I was proving myself to myself as well and there isn’t anything better than proving yourself to yourself. It gives momentum to what you do and there’s opportunity then to share that. We now share that with each other. We still can come to reunions and meet somebody you haven’t met before, but you know that they’ve played and we share the same thing, all the ups and downs, ins and outs, hurts and bruises and strawberries and stories. 7:39 We begin to tell our own stories within our group. Interviewer: “You said something earlier about not talking about it, the fact that your husband was very proud of you and did more talking about it than you, because you wouldn’t, your kids finally got to the point of realizing it. Why do you want to talk about it now?” 8:04 It’s valuable. It’s history. If we don’t tell our stories there’s no history to anything if the stories aren’t told and when I give talks, I say that to the mothers, I tell the mothers that they have to support their child in what the child likes to do—they may change their mind in two weeks and they need to tall their story and the grand parents need to love them to pieces because those are the important things for a child when they’re growing up. 8:55 As I said before, it was very difficult growing up, but all of that is who I am and when I began to recognize that playing baseball was a very important part of my living and growing up and who I am and we need to share that with everybody and anybody who wants to know or will listen and that’s important for the other person also. 9:27 Interviewer: “I have two last questions for you. One you answered in part throughout, so I’m just going to ask you this: How did the experience of baseball, pro baseball affect you as a person and how you became the person you are today?” Learning how to get along really. In college I’m a broad field social science major educated in secondary education and I was broad field because of all the things that I was learning, because when you meet at a very young age somebody from New Jersey and somebody from the south, Atlanta or whatever, Cuba, Canada, each one of us teach each other who they are and we begin to look at that and recognize that broadens our horizons of how we view our world. 10:37 The capability then of interacting with people in a situation no matter where we are. I often say in my talks that we were taught how to be professional people on the field and off the field very much so. Interviewer: “You talked earlier also using the word history and as you know, we have Dr. Smither here in the history department at Grand Valley State University and I’m a documentary film maker, so I’m going to ask you this very specific question. Where do you think the All American Girls Professional Baseball League fits in the whole scheme of history?” 11:24 The development of women, to be given the opportunities to do who they are. Every person who is alive has desires and things that they like and dislike and if one only does as one is told or put in a niche or to be seen and not heard we have lost something. That person has lost something, the world has lost something, not just the United States, but 16 �the whole world has lost something because we’re still part of the human race, we’re not just what someone else thinks we are. We have to learn to live out from within instead of having to fulfill somebody else’s ideas of what we are. I’m very strong on that because I had the privilege of living that out. I always say, “I had a health dose of stubbornness”, but that’s what it takes. There are so many facets to the development of the human being that intellectually, physically, emotionally, all of that and the more we do that the more we are who we are and we can interact with other people of the world. I can reach out and I can say, “hi, thank you, good to meet you”, and I do that with the kids and if we don’t do that, what are we? 13:53 It just so happens that through sports, it could have been any sport because most of us played all sports and in that is the interaction between us and if I throw the ball to you and you throw the ball back to me, we have a relationship and if we don’t know how to have relationships with people, oh man, we’re in trouble, we’re in deep trouble if we don’t, that’s what we’re here for. 14:36 Interviewer: “I still didn’t get a complete answer to the history question. Where do you think the, and I love what you just said, don’t get me wrong, but I want to focus on—from your perspective where does the team fit in terms of history? Were do you just a baseball team? Where do you think it fits into all of this?” You know, we grew up in a time when we were at WWII and my husband was in WWII, I had two of my brothers in WWII and we took care of the homefront in the sense of— when we played we made a V from home plate past the pitchers mound, one team here and one team there and that V was for victory, that’s what that was for. We played at Fort Sheridan for the soldiers there and for the navy people at Great Lakes and that was usually in the springtime for exhibitions and things like that. 15:43 We helped to sell war bonds in the sense of our appearances. We didn’t physically handle that, but it was because of whom we were and what we were doing that the war bonds were sold and we saved Aluminum foil and made it into baseballs and threw them around. We were a part of the homefront; I think a very large part of the homefront. To give entertainment where there wasn’t much. You didn’t have much money, there was gas rationing and we took care of the people in that sense that were in a geographical area. Interviewer: “Now that part you did feel at the time, right? You did feel that part?” Sure right. Interviewer: “You may not have understood the significance of the baseball and what it was going to do for future generations, but you did feel that it was part of the war effort like “Rosie the Riveter”, the WACS or the WAVES or anybody?” 17:08 Absolutely, we were very much aware of sort of a role, I would call it a role, that a—that actually helped to keep people who worked very hard and long hours, they had a chance to relax and had a chance to interact with us, and we with them, in a very positive way. We were always in tune with what was going on, always. 17:49 We began every game with the “Star Spangled Banner” and we were very in tune to “God Bless America” with 17 �the fat lady singing. Had to hear the fat lady sing and you know what we did when we traveled? We sang all the time and it was the singing that helped us in the sense of fulfilling what it is that the people at home had to go through and keep the moral—we were moral boosters, I would say for whomever came in contact with us. 18:39 Interviewer: “A couple random questions, any particular incidents, events highlights anywhere in that period of time you were playing that you, for whatever reason, would like to have on the record? Maybe the kids want to hear about or grandchildren would finally hear about. Just something, it doesn’t even have to be baseball related per say, but what in that period of time when you were playing pro ball, any particular things that may have happened that come to your head?” 19:10 Well, there are two things. One thing is the travel and realizing that we are part of a larger thing and the other one is baseball and it has to do with playing in Yankee Stadium. As we were traveling through and came to Newark, New Jersey again and we played in the old Griffith Stadium in Washington, D.C. and that was our first time to play within a major league ballpark, “marvelous”. 19:57 Of course you’re in Newark when you go across the water there and go to Yankee Stadium and that’s where I met Yogi Berra because I was on that side and when he was starting out and I was so excited because I think we parked like two miles away, I left my shoes on the bus and that’s how excited we were to be in Yankee Stadium. To walk inside for the first time as a very young person to see Yankee Stadium, you’re looking around and “oh my goodness”. At that time it was pretty much “the stadium” and to meet the players that we met was a— Yogi asked me if I wanted to use his bat—well, first of all Yogi liked a thick handle and a heavy thing out here, it was a club, and if I had picked it up and swung it, I would still be going around in circles. I saw his wrists and his wrists were really big and you had to have those kinds of wrists to use a bat like that. The whole experience at Yankee Stadium was memorable in terms of baseball. 21:21 Interviewer: “Was part of it because you were professional? You’re not just a fan walking into Yankee Stadium; you’re walking in as a professional into Yankee Stadium.” Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. Like I say, we went to Griffith Stadium first on the way up from town and the difference between a AAA league diamond and major league, there’s no comparison, it’s just awesome and I use that word not casually, it’s awesome. I realized why the Yankees had great catchers—because the distance between home plate and the backstop, you could put a softball diamond in, I mean it was very far. 22:19 You knew you couldn’t have a fat ball, no fat balls in Yankee Stadium because they could take two bases instead of one and I think that’s why they had such good catchers and good hitters. They had catchers that were very good hitters. It was a professional meeting, absolutely, and a lot of the kids that were there still talk about it. We’re proud to have been there and rubbed elbows with the “biggies” and just like young kids now are proud to meet us in that vein. 23:18 When you tell the story, you relive the emotions. 18 �Interviewer: “Well, there are a few of us older “fogies” here that kind of special being here with you too. I’m not quite the older “fogie” yet, I’m not going to admit to it though although—I have a question and I’m sure you’ve been asked it a hundred times, but what did you think of the movie?” 23:48 The movie was good because it was based on fact even though it was a fictional story and that’s Hollywood and Hollywood eyes. A lot of embellishments that we sit and laugh at and I think the only thing we were concerned with was in the beginning, when we saw the move, was a little bit of the language. There wasn’t a lot of that, but we’re thinking of it in terms of showing young people and I think there’s a version out that doesn’t have that in and I’m happy about that because it needs to be in the schools and whether it’s elementary, high school, college or whatever. 24:33 Interviewer: “You will be happy to know that when we first started about doing this project, the Library of Congress project with women’s baseball, when I talked to my students and there was not a lot of knowledge about it, but when you said, League of Their Own, they knew and said, “oh, I loved that movie”, and then I said, “I’m going to meet the real women” and they went “wow”. I look at it from a different perspective, I watched the movie and I love tom Hanks and I love Geena Davis and for me it was more of a Hollywood version, but it did give you the overview of the experience of walking into that ballpark. eeina Davis walks in and there’s all those players playing, it had to be close to being real, oh yeah. 25:32 I thought that Penny Marshall was very astute in how it was put together because when I was in Chicago when we were first asked to come and tryout for six speaking parts and then we went to Cooperstown and I wondered, “how are they going to do this without being trite about things and just throw an idiom in there somehow or another and have it make sense”, but she made sense all the way through, all the way through. There were integral parts of the story that said what it is and what won support for a lot of us was when Tom Hanks is talking to Geena Davis when she’s leaving to go to Oregon. Well, I saw the premieer in Fort Wayne, we had a premiere there and when he said, “of course it’s hard, if it wasn’t hard, anybody could do it”, well there’s another chest going thing, but we were quiet, it was so quiet that you could hear all the motors and stuff underneath that handle everything in that theater. That’s how quiet it was because we were crying. What I said about having to learn to survive and go through a lot of stuff, that was another way of saying that, but a way that was acceptable to other people. It helped us to be acceptable because we went through a lot of unacceptability, but we didn’t let it change us, it helped us to grow. 27:30 Interviewer: I was moved by that too, in fact I teach writing at Grand Valley and I say that about writers, the same thing. “It’s hard work and if it was easy, everybody could do it”. I really felt that too.” If you are doing what you really love to do, you will do it, no matter how hard it is, but that makes it what it is or anybody could do it. 28:05 Interviewer: “That was wonderful, that was wonderful.” 19 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_JBaumgart Title A name given to the resource Baumgart, Jacqueline Mattson (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Baumgart, Jacqueline Mattson Description An account of the resource Jacqueline Baumgart (née Mattson) was born in Waukegan, Illinois. She grew up in Waukegan area and played with the neighborhood boys. She played outfield positions as a kid. In 1942, her family moved to Milwaukee, WI where she played with as a catcher for a few local softball teams. Eventually, she was scouted for the All American Girls Baseball League. At the start of her first spring training she had not been assigned to a team yet. She was eventually assigned to the Springfield Sallies in 1950. She played the 1950 season with them and was then traded to the Kenosha Comets and played the 1951 season with them. One of her main career highlights was having the opportunity to play as a professional in Yankee Stadium. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Illinois Baseball players--Wisconsin Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-09-25 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/06956280e40614b43b3b55d5d7f4f929.mp4 f2a6cac73b1e0613cc4deed266d76c37 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ee7204a431cc0405f065e7fe5a88a1d2.pdf fdd86f48f75c774251e7c78d76ebb60c PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW WIMP BAUMGARTNER Women in Baseball Born: Fort Wayne, Indiana, 1930 Resides: Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 5, 2010, Detroit, MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion. Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, March 23, 2011 Interviewer: “Wimp, can you start by giving us a little bit of background on yourself? Where and when were you born, for instance?” I was born in Fort Wayne, Indiana in 1930 and the last of six kids. The other four were girls and in other words there were five girls in the family and one boy, but he died when he was eleven months old and I was born two months later, so that was it. Interviewer: “What did your family do for a living in those days?” My dad ran a grocery store and, of course, my mom worked in there with him and we lived above the grocery store. They moved a farmhouse over from where they built the Harvester in Fort Wayne. My grandpa moved houses, so he moved the farmhouse over there and my mom was the oldest girl in that family, so my grandpa gave it to the oldest girl, so that’s where we ended up, across from Zollner, Magnavox and Harvester. Interviewer: “Was your father able to keep his store through the thirties?” 56:03 Yeah, we got a lot of trade from the guys in the factory, cigarettes and ice cream. Mom and dad had a restaurant license and they served hamburgers and cheeseburgers. Stuff that—they would come in and get their potato chips and Twinkie cookies and all that good stuff. On the way out of the store they would get an ice cream cone to eat on the way back to the factories and I would have to go out in the yard and clean up their mess. 1 �Interviewer: “So, as long as the factories were going then you had business and you were ok. How did you get involved playing sports?” Well, the neighborhood boys. The boys lived close to where I did and of course I didn’t have any brothers, but we went back to Harvester Park, which was two blocks behind and they had a ball diamond back there and every night we congregated there, but we always had to be home by dark. That was it as far as—and oh, the men from Zollners, when they had the Zollner Pistons professional basketball team, before they moved to Detroit, they use to come over and shoot baskets at my basket with me, so we always had the big ball players coming in the store for their donuts and coffee and all that good stuff. 57:16 Interviewer: “Now, when you were playing—were you playing baseball with the boys or were they playing softball?” We played with any kind of ball we had. Interviewer: “With whatever they had, and did they have regular baseball bats or sticks?” No, my dad had a softball neighborhood men’s team, and Zollner put up a ball diamond across the street from our grocery store, which was between Zollner and Magnavox, and after work, or sometimes at noon, the guys would have an hour for lunch and they would be over there playing softball in the summertime, so I always had to run over and play ball with the big men. They let me bat, they let me run the bases, and I was at the height of my glory. 58:02 I got to know all the fellas that way. Interviewer: “Were there any other girls playing with them?” No, the other girls were outrun, I guess, I don’t know. Interviewer: “So, you’re sisters weren’t interested in this?” 2 �No, they was women or girls or something. Interviewer: “Alright now, do you remember when the women’s baseball team came to play in Fort Wayne?” They came in 1945, and of course, I went out to watch them and also, my phys-ed teacher at Fort Wayne Central, she went out and tried out and I went with her to the tryouts. I was just out there running around because I had no intention of playing with them or anything. We were on our way to the lake, so she went to the tryouts and then we were going to go to her cottage, her mom and dad’s cottage at the lake. So, we were out there playing around and she made the team, she was an underhand pitcher at that time, and I was her student in eighth grade, and of course I tagged her all over, and she was very, not demanding, but I mimicked her like kids do. 59:20 So, I’d go out and watch them play ball and I’d look at that and say, “geeze, I can do that”, you know, a cocky little kid, so when I graduated I tried out with Fort Wayne and, of course, they didn’t need an outfielder at that time, or anyplace else I could play, so they sent me to Chicago and up there, they made me into a catcher, and I was right where I should have been all the time. It felt real good and I got along good and I did pretty good because I went on the tour. Interviewer: “Alright, so you said you tried out for Fort Wayne, was that an individual tryout?” 59:58 No, this was a spring training deal. They put an ad in the paper you know, and the other softball players come and you know, we just performed in front of the manager at that time, that was Harold Greiner then, and he had a bar in town next to the softball diamond. Interviewer: “Do you have a sense of how many of those girls got sent on to Chicago or to the other teams?” 3 �I think there were three of us, and the rest got sent home, but I got to stay, I lucked out. Interviewer: “So, you go to Chicago and what team are you joining there?” It wasn’t a team; it was a whole big tryout. We were at a small hotel at the north end of town. They brought in four Cubans and Lefty Alvarez was one of those Cubans, of course none of them could talk English or anything. All they did was eat scrambled eggs and hamburgers and I don’t know what they drank, but that’s all they ate. I think that’s all they knew how to order. 1:05 Anyhow, from there we left on the tour. We had two teams, so there were a lot of girls there with fifteen or sixteen on a team, Chicago [Colleens] and the [Springfield] Sallies. I forget which team I was with first, but anyhow, midway through June they switched me to the other team, and I don’t remember which one I was with first. Interviewer: “So, you got to catch all the pitchers and not just one team?” Yeah, I ended up catching most all of them, yeah. Interviewer: “Now, as you were going along in that first season, how well were you doing as a player? Were you doing well as a catcher or as a hitter?” I did pretty well at both at that time, of course we were strictly overhand and it was new for the pitchers and new for batters and I was the first one that got to hit a home run on that whole tour. 2:07 I don’t know why I remember those things, but they must be important. Interviewer: “Do you remember who you hit it off of?” Heavens no, that was too long ago. Interviewer: “All right, now what was the daily life like as you were going on tour with these two teams?” 4 �Ok, we were all on one bus and we intermingle because, like I said, some of us switched back and forth on different teams. We got three dollars a day meal money, and usually if we were in a town, we were only there for one night or maybe two, so we always had dirty clothes to do. We always went out and ate at small restaurants, we didn’t have Burger King and McDonalds and that, so they just had mom and pop places, and what we had was trash food because we would very seldom order a meal. 3:06 If we were traveling—one time we were traveling from Saint something in Oklahoma, and we rode until about noon the next day to hit our next stop and it was continually that kind of stuff. We always stayed in air-cooled hotels, which was a nice little old fan up there in the middle of the room just barely going around and that was our air conditioning. Of course, all the windows were always up. We just moseyed around town and didn’t stay in the hotel too much because it was too hot. We did run into colored only drinking fountains and rest rooms and we had never seen that before, and it was in our face almost every day. Interviewer: “So, most of the players were from the Midwest and areas where they didn’t have the—or the Northeast or California?” Yeah, most of us were from the Midwest. 4:07 As I said, the Cubans were there and a lot from Michigan and a few from Indiana. Yeah, we had some from Redkey, down by Indianapolis and Ohio. We had some from Ohio and Illinois and that was about it, the Midwest and we didn’t have hardly anybody coming from somewhere else. Interviewer: “And if they were not coming up from the south, they wouldn’t have seen the segregation and all that kind of thing.” 5 �Mentioning the south and the ball players—every time we went in, I wouldn’t say every time, but a lot of the times we went in, they would ads in the paper that we were coming and they were to come out and tryout. Well, we picked up Sue Kidd in Arkansas, and she showed up with bib overalls on and I don’t want to make fun of Sue because she was a good player, but she was “back woods country, small town hardy”. I think all they had was a post office there with houses around. 5:10 Her dad was a Postmaster, but she showed up with a farmer haircut like the Amish, they put a bowl on their head and cut around it, but after she got on the bus with us , we were in Little Rock, she had to go back to Choctaw and pack her bag, and they brought her down the next day and she got on the bus and went with us. Her dad was all for it, he was a gung ho baseball man from way back. He always had ball teams and three boys. Sue had a couple brothers, Tommy and Buck, and they played good. After the first season I went home with Sue and we rode them hills back there. They were going to have a ball game the night we got there, because we traveled all day and everything, And they wanted Sue to pitch, so Sue pitched and they had—I had to catch because I was with her, and it was a fabulous time. 6:12 They come from out of those hills, I don’t know where those people come from because going down the road you don’t see too many houses. They are back in the hills someplace, but boy when they would have a ball game they would have a couple thousand people there and that was a lot of people back in the hills. Interviewer: “Now, when you were touring you would—you mentioned you were in Oklahoma, you were in Arkansas and those areas, and did you kind of go through the Southeast or Northeast? Where else did you go traveling?” 6 �We got to play in Natchez and New Orleans, in a ball field down there, at Pelican Park I think it was, and that was big time. The manager made sure we went to Antoine’s for dinner one day and we got three dollars a day for meal money and everything in there was about ten dollars and that was big bucks back then. 7:05 We had to go and we were all mad at him because we had to spend all our money on chicken and that was the cheapest thing on the menu. We managed that, we walked through the French Quarter and I mean, we got an education, all the way, you learn geography, you learn everything. You learn how they talk from down there and it was just—it was a good education for a kid the first time away from home. We never got to travel back in those days because our parents never got to go anywhere. We couldn’t because of the grocery store. Interviewer: “How much of an effort did they make to look after you? You had chaperone with you and so forth, but how did they keep track of you and keep you in line?” We had a couple on the tour that would kind of get lost once and a while, you know, run off or do something, but most of us, the first time away and we were all pretty young, so we didn’t get too wild. 8:09 We were half afraid to walk on some of those streets and at night we would play, but sometimes we would play day games, but we never wandered too far by ourselves at all because we didn’t know what was out there. Interviewer: “As you kept going, and get to Louisiana, do you keep going east and go all the way to the east coast?” Yeah, we went to Jackson, Mississippi, Baton Rouge and over to Alabama. We were in Tennessee; we played—the prettiest time I ever saw, even in major leagues, was in Memphis Tennessee. The have that red dirt down there you know, and the white lines on 7 �it and the green grass and the fence around it was green, and I don’t know why, but I sure do remember that park because it was so pretty. 9:11 From there we went back down to Mississippi. We backtracked and we went through Fort Smith Arkansas three times from three different directions, getting around to where we—the man got—a guy by the name of Frank Elve or Helve, he went ahead of us about two days or three days and he would go to these towns and have them book us. Of course he would have to talk to the chamber of commerce in all these towns and everything, but he kept ahead of us and he kept us moving, but glory, we went all over the country in three different times going in different directions. We were in Paris, Texas, Tyler, Texas and one of the big cities I think it was Austin-- Austin, Texas, that’s the capital, we were there because we saw the capital building. One other time, when we first started out, we went to Jefferson Missouri, and in Jefferson City, Missouri, the capital, they have this acoustic room. 10:15 It’s a great big lobby and the ceiling is real high and you could hear somebody whisper clear across the—see, I tell you, we got to see that kind of stuff. Oh, another thing too, in Joplin, Missouri we got to go through the Penitentiary. We were walking through the jail and them guys were just looking at us girls and we were scared to death to be in there. I know they were caged up, but we didn’t know the way they were looking at us bothered us because we had some fifteen and sixteen, I was eighteen, anyhow that was an experience. Interviewer: “Now, you didn’t complete that season with the touring teams?” No, I think it was in Mississippi, they sent a Piper cub down to pick me up and take me back to Peoria. We got back, Lenny Zintak was our manager and he came in the hotel room to tell me, “hey Wimp, I got good news for you. I’m sending you home”, and I 8 �thought, “oh God”, and I was about ready to bawl. 11:21 Then he said, “you have to go up to Peoria and be their catcher”, and I thought, “oh my golly”. We got to Peoria in this little old plane, I don’t even know who the pilot was, anyway, we got there and Peoria was playing over in Fort Wayne, my hometown, so we had to get back in this little old airplane and he flew me over to Fort Wayne. I caught that night and wasn’t introduced to the pitcher because I just got there in time for the game. They had a uniform that didn’t fit me, but I had to go out and catch anyhow, but that was fun. My mom and dad were there and I hadn’t seen them for two months, so they told me I was going to go home and I was homesick like everyone was. We sure did live through some things. 12:08 Then we got on the bus right after that and went back to Peoria and for two days I hadn’t been in a bed. We were traveling all night to get down to Mississippi and then they sent me someplace else up there and then I finally got to Fort Wayne and that was their last game of the series there, so I got back in the bus and we went back to Peoria. That was an all night trip and we got in about nine the next morning—that was living. Interviewer: “Once you got to Peoria, did you get a chance to settle down a little bit?” Yeah, they put me in a house, it wasn’t too far from the ballpark, and I had a room in there upstairs. A man and a woman who had two kids, nice kids, and I was within walking distance, so I could walk to the ballpark. I never did get on a bus and go downtown, I was afraid I’d get lost. Peoria’s pretty big and I didn’t know anything about it. 13:05 Interviewer: “So, were you their regular catcher then for the rest of the season?” 9 �I caught about the first three games and then Terry Donahue and I switched back and forth some. I was new and she didn’t have the arm I had, but she had more smarts than I had because she knew the girls better, so it worked out and I had a nice education on that. Interviewer: “So, you got to learn the hitters and learn what the pitchers could do?” Yeah, you only see then three days and then another team would come in or you would go somewhere else, so that was only for the month of August, because I got there at the end of July and the season was over on Labor Day and that’s when the play offs started. Of course, Peoria wasn’t in the play offs that year, that’s probably why they sent for me, but I couldn’t get them in the play offs, I know that. Interviewer: “So, what happens then when the season ends, that first season?” 14:05 That first season? Well, I didn’t have a car, I didn’t know anybody, so my landlord took me down to the bus station that night and I slept in the bus station that night and I took the bus to go home the next morning. That was an all night—well, we had to go up through Chicago because they didn’t have any buses go straight across the northern part of Indiana, so we had to go to Chicago, stay there half a day and I finally got home. Interviewer: “When you got back home, did you go back to work in the store or what did you do?” I was now eighteen and I could get a job, so I went down the hill to Magnavox. Well, that hill between Magnavox and us was all down hill and that’s where they had the soapbox derby every year. Well, when I was a little kid I had a buggy and I went and took the wheels off the buggy and put it on an ironing board and put an orange crate on 10 �top of that, because we had orange crates from the grocery store, and I made a little—I just steered it by rope with rope on one side and the other. 15:13 Of course back then you could do that. Anytime you could get wood with four wheels on it, you could run it down the hill, so I would play with the boys out there and I could beat them all with my buggyies, but I went down to get in the soapbox derby and they laughed at me and I had to go home and I bawled all the way home. They wouldn’t let the girls do anything. Something else too—in high school—I wanted to take drafting and stuff and I wanted to be an Architect—that was a boys class and they wouldn’t let me in—that’s the story of my life—boys always got in my way, but times have changed. Interviewer: “So, you took a job with Magnavox then for that winter?” Yeah, for the winter Interviewer: “Did you know you were going back to the league the next year?” Yes, Magnavox happily laid you off all summer, so I went back to Magnavox the next fall, and then the third winter I went to Fort Wayne Catering Company and worked there in the wintertime. 16:11 I would save my money to go to college. Interviewer: “So, the second season, how did that start?” Ok, I got to—I went to spring training with Muskegon. Interviewer: “And where was spring training that year?” Cape Girardeau, Missouri—that was—there were four teams down there. The fort Wayne Daisies was one, we were one, well, Muskegon was one. The Fort Wayne Daisies picked up Joan Weaver and the Weaver kids, all three of them and they hung on to them players I guess, they didn’t let them go. Then at the end of spring training I was with Kalamazoo—I keep saying Kalamazoo because Muskegon was with Kalamazoo, 11 �but I didn’t move to Kalamazoo. At the end of spring training they sent me on a South Bend bus. Evidently I was traded to South Bend somewhere in spring training and that’s how I got to South Bend. 17:18 You pack your bag and get on the bus. I looked at them and I didn’t know any of them, so—the veterans don’t talk to the rookies too much, so I just went back and sat back and then they put me in a house there within walking distance of the thing—the ballpark. Interviewer: “ Now, did you actually go to play in Muskegon or were you just assigned to them and then switched to the Blue Sox?” I was assigned to them after Peoria. I don’t know how I got from Peoria to Muskegon. You get a letter and that’s where you go. That’s where you report for spring training and we had to drive down—some of the other players from Pennsylvania and stuff were going through Indiana you know, so we kept track of each other, so I hitched a ride with some of them to get down to Cape Girardeau. Interviewer: “What was Cape Girardeau like anyway?” 18:15 Oh, I don’t know, it was on the Mississippi you know and the train tracks down there— the bog down there and they had a ball diamond down there and everything and I guess it flooded out half of the spring time, but we got inland a little bit more, but not much. We were right down along the river park and that’s where the main part of the town was. It was just a southern town, that’s all I can say, with a lot of railroad tracks and barges going up and down the river and that was something for us to see. Interviewer: “All right, I want to make sure we are kind of following the course of your career here, so you trained with Muskegon, but you did not go to Muskegon?” I went there—no, I got on the bus to South Bend. 12 �Interviewer: “You went to South Band?” Yes, they just told me to get on the bus with South Bend. 19:12 Interviewer: “Did you play for South Band that season then?” Yeah Interviewer: “Ok, was this 1950 now?” Yeah, this was 1950. Interviewer: “Now, who were the really good veteran players for the South Bend team at that point?” They had Marge Stefani, she was a real good player, but right now, I think this was the second year she had become a chaperone, so she was a chaperone when I got there. Bonnie Baker was a second baseman and she was one of the main players and the stars, more or less, of the whole thing. Shirley Stavroff was the catcher, she was the one that made me sit on the bench for a couple years, but she was better. She was a pretty fair hitter and she was from southern Illinois, I think. Jean Faut was the wife of Karl Winsch, and she was probably one of the best, one of the top three pitchers in the league. She had two perfect games in a row and all that good stuff. 20:16 I caught a couple one hitters from her later on when I started catching. When Stavroff left the team and I moved in and I was lucky enough to play the last couple years, 1953 and 1954 as a first string catcher. Interviewer: “Now, before that, would you just rotate occasionally?” Yeah, for a double header and I always caught batting practice to help the pitchers out with target and stuff. I would always hurry up and bat first and then I put my stuff on and start catching the rest. 13 �Interviewer: “Would they use you as a pinch hitter or put you anywhere else?” I pinch hit just a couple times, but they never put me in to pinch run. I just wasn’t that speedy. 21:05 Interviewer: “Were you a good defensive catcher?” Yeah, more so Interviewer: “What did you do to keep the base stealers from going wild? Because there were some women that were really good at stealing bases.” It wasn’t the catchers—how are you going to stop them, it’s the pitcher that they’re running on, but you usually knew who was going to run and who wasn’t going to run. I had a pretty good arm down there and I caught some and some you didn’t get, but it wasn’t too much one way or the other. I would catch some and not catch some. Interviewer: “You were kind of like modern baseball now, you do steal, you do run on the pitcher and if a catcher had a good arm you’re a little more careful.” I would shoot one down to first or third sometimes, just to keep them a little closer because that wasn’t so far away and you could keep them a little more alert to what they’re trying to do. 22:04 Interviewer: “And then did you have to call the games?” Yeah, and you pretty well knew what your pitchers could pitch and you knew a little bit how the batters were standing in the box. You knew some of that stuff and you would pick it up and, of course, Karl knew some, the manager, because he was a pitcher in the big leagues. He didn’t last too long, but during the war he did get to play. I enjoyed 14 �what you really learned about the game that fascinated me. I was one who wanted to know. Interviewer: “That’s good for a catcher.” It helps you out a lot. Interviewer: “You basically played, through your career, with the Blue Sox, or did you?” I finished up with the Blue Sox. Interviewer: “Did you play for anyone else along the way?” They loaned me to Kalamazoo for a month in 1950. Their catcher blew out a knee and I went up there and then they finally got a catcher traded in from another team and I went back to South Bend, that’s where you belonged 23:10 Interviewer: “Now, when you were playing in South Bend, could your family and friends from Fort Wayne come over and watch you?” No, but when we got in Fort Wayne I had the whole family there you know, and friends and stuff. I hit a home run in Fort Wayne one time and that was nice, and I don’t remember if it won the game or not. I didn’t get as many singles as a lot of people got, but I’d just as sooner get a double or I never did get a triple, I don’t think, because I’m not that fast, but I got a few home runs. Interviewer: “You had some power?” Yeah, if I hit the ball it usually went pretty fast from wherever. If it went in high enough, I don’t know, but my favorite place was down third base and the short stop area on the left side of the diamond. Interviewer: “Did you play for any championship teams?” 24:08 15 �Oh yeah, I fell into that, in 1951, 1952, we were loaded with good pitchers, Sue Kidd, Janet Ramsey, and Jean Faut, and I got to catch a little bit on that. In 1951 we won the pennant that year and then we went on to win the little series at the end, and we were champions of everything. Then in 1952 we had some—well, we didn’t have a lot of the old players because twelve of them—quite a few of them, I think six or eight, walked out at the end of 1951 and I got to catch in 1951 and 52. At the end of the season in 1951 and in 1952 we won both of them. Interviewer: “And one of those seasons you only had like twelve players left on your roster?” Yeah, we was the “dutiful dozen”, that’s what the newspaper said, and that was interesting. 25:07 Interviewer: “But you got the job done. All right, now you played until the league ended in 1954. Those last couple years could you tell the league was having trouble?” Yeah, they were having financial trouble. The caliber of the game was still pretty good in 1953, but the older players were getting older and they were leaving. If they started in 1943,44 and 45, a lot of those was getting out at 1950, 52 and 53, so they were bringing in a lot of rookies and people who had never played baseball before, of course you all had to go through that, everybody that got in the league went through that. It was just one of those things and in TV and everything and of course the major leagues took over the television, and people stayed home, they didn’t come out to watch us much. We finished the season, but you that was the end of the thing, we knew we weren’t coming back next year, so everybody took their uniforms or their shirt and jackets and stuff. 26:17 16 �Interviewer: “In the 1953 season, you did go to the championship series again and Grand Rapids won that year, but I think you were the ones that they beat, or else they beat Fort Wayne, I forget.” 1953 wasn’t us Interviewer: “Fort Wayne, all right, I’m getting my league history here—I’ve got to make sure I got that straight, but you had—the Blue Sox had a couple of good years in there, okay. Now, if the league had kept going would you have stayed with it a while longer?” Probably, but I don’t know. See, in 1953 when the season was over, and I knew we would have another 1954 yet. I started college in the fall of 1953 and then in the spring of 1953, when it was time to go to spring training, I saved all my skips in college and I didn’t skip any out, so I could go to spring training, so they let me go to spring training. 27:15 I had to come back and take finals, but I took off after a ball game one night in South Bend and drove down to Indianapolis, where I was going to school, and I got down there and slept a couple of hours and then I had to go and take a couple finals and then a couple in the morning and one in the afternoon. Then I had to drive back up to south Bend and that night I think I had seven errors in that ball game. I overthrew second base, I don’ know, I always threw to first base and I was so sleepy and everything I didn’t know what I was doing. Anyway, that was the end of school for that year and I got out of that all right. Interviewer: “All right, and then you had to get through the last season. where there fewer teams by then or were there other signs aside from smaller crowds? How else could you tell there were problems?” 28:14 17 �I think we started with six teams that season, but somewhere in the middle we lost one of them. I know we ended up with five, but I don’t think for the whole season. It was sad because, you know, I got to play in 1951, 52 and 53 regularly and it takes that long to learn the game and the people and everything else. Just about the time you’re ready to be a good strong veteran for four or five more years, four or five more years wasn’t there. That was sad, but you know, you met an awful lot of nice people and I can go all over the country now and visit former players for South Bend or any place since we have these reunions and things. 29:03 Interviewer: “Now, you went back to college after that was over and what did you get your degree in?” The same thing all the rest of them got it in. No, I ended up—I can teach English, I can teach biology, I can teach physical education, genetics. I took a lot of biology because I was thinking of going into being a doctor, but then I figured I wasn’t that smart. By that time I had a lot of biology, vertebrae zoology, en vertebrae zoology, so I ended up being a biology teacher, phys ed, health and a little bit of science teacher. Interviewer: “Where did you teach?” I started out in a little place outside of Elkhart. I went back up to live in south Bend because some the old players, Blue Sox, had a basketball team and I wanted to play a couple of years of basketball, so I taught in a little country school in Jimtown, we were the “Jimtown Jimmy’s”, but it was a country school and there were very nice families there, you know, just farm families. 30:23 We were just on the south end of Elkhart where the railroad went through and some of the colored lived on the south of the railroad, so we had those players, and those kids, along with the white kids, I had some 18 �real good teams, track teams, volleyball teams and basketball. We had a good little school, and I enjoyed that a lot. Interviewer: “Did you stay at that one school or did you move?” I was there for twelve years and then my dad died. He went to bed one night and never go out, and then I went back to live with my mom because I didn’t want her to have to move and everything, and then I worked at Leo High School in--just east of Fort Wayne. 31:09 My old superintendent in Jimtown now the superintendent down in East Allen, so he called on the phone up there during the daytime and the office lady answered and when he was in Jimtown he was the principal and then superintendent , well she recognized his voice on the telephone, so she came down to get me to tell me I had a phone call, so I went back, walking through the hall, and I said, “Who is it?”. She said, “It’s Roberts”, and I said, “What does he want?” She said, “you just tell him you can’t come”, so he wanted me to come down to East Allen, so I ended up in East Allen, and it was closer to home. I could drive every day. Interviewer: “Now, as you were teaching and coaching and doing all of this, did people know that you played professional baseball?” Yeah, because some of them remembered because Elkhart’s just a little ways from South Bend and Mishawaka, so they use to come and watch us play. 32:10 Then when we went back, we still had a couple games in South Bend because every year or two they would all get together and put on a little exhibition for the local people you know, because it was the newspapers that would kind of want us to do some of that stuff. Of course one night half of Jimtown came over to watch because they had seen some of it before. I just had a good life all the way through. 19 �Interviewer: “You become an educator, and you’re teaching in a period when they start to open up things in schools for women to do sports and this kind of thing, so were you connected with that?” Yeah, we started out; of course half the principals didn’t want the girls playing anyhow. When I started teaching, the first thing I said to myself, I said, “these kids are going to play”, so I had a real good principal though, that Mr. Sheets, he was the one that hired me, and he had three daughters and that helped. 33:16 He left and became the superintendent and then I had Mr. Jones and he had two daughters and that helped. I got those kids in the gym playing volleyball games and basketball games with just the little local schools around. We had maybe six games a year is all to start with and we were out there playing. I had a couple friends that I said we played basketball in South Bend and they were school teachers, so we played—I played Cynthia Sawyer’s kids in south Bend, they were on the west side of town and they would drive over. This is one funny thing, Cynthia Sawyer came over to have a track meet with her kids and a lot of them were colored and some whites, and then I had the same thing, so they came over in two cars. 34:08 All these kids getting out of these two cars and my kids were sitting out there in the grass waiting for them you know, because we had already warmed up somewhat, and those kids are getting out of the car and my kid, half of them were colored and these other guys got out of the car and they said, “my God they’re all black, what are we going to do?” They were scared seeing these city colored kids coming out there, but we beat them. You know, it’s funny how they acted sometimes. One time I had them up to the lake, my GAAA kids, and half of them were colored and they were sitting up there in the yard under the trees and the other white kids were out there on the piers and I said, “How 20 �come you guys are not out there swimming in the sun?” She said, “We don’t want to get a sunburn”. Well here dumb me, I didn’t even know they get sunburns, so it was an education having them and they were just good kids. I can’t believe how—see, I just lucked into all that stuff. 35:06 Interviewer: “Did you coach girls teams or women’s teams? As you were saying, the women were going to play did you do both? Did you coach boys teams as well as women’s teams?” No, you couldn’t get into the boys world, that’s all there was to it, no way under the sun. I had to fight to get the gym once a week afterwards. Then we had a bowling league and we went into town and went bowling, the girls. Then the boys were mad because they couldn’t go in and go bowling, because I wasn’t going to take them, they were boys. I’d take the girls because they wouldn’t let us in their gym; I’m not going to let them in the bowling alley. Interviewer: “Did this get a little easier over the course of time? Did people get used to having girls play and this kind of stuff?” Yeah, it took a while though, but finally you know, the kids I had come back from college and stuff and they had been playing a little bit in college and it just grew out. 36:09 Another thing, they finally got a women’s advisory board down at the IHASSA down in Indianapolis, well we had to run for that, so I talked to my principal about it and he urged me to go into it and to write a letter to all the principals around the area. Well, I did what I was told and I got voted on down there, so I was on that first advisory board and I think I was on it about six years or so. They finally made this one lady a cocommissioner, now that helped and now the girls were ready to play and this was in the 21 �late sixties probably that we finally go t noticed down there in Indianapolis. We were at the GAA was kind of the statewide and we had our own tournaments and then the state finally recognized that too. 37:05 They couldn’t hide it too much longer, so then title nine came in and we were off and running. Interviewer: “So when you were playing, did you think of yourselves at all as sort of pioneers or people who were opening things up for women?” We didn’t know we were pioneers until fifty years later. A pioneer only means you’re old I guess, I don’t know. Interviewer: “It means you’re first, but it does seem there’s a pretty good continuity here. You’re playing in this women’s league and you come back and you stay connected with sports and as a teacher you’re actively involved in getting more things for girls to do and building that up, and that’s drawing on your own experience at least knowing they can go do it.” Girls can do anything; just turn them loose, that’s all you got to say. They’re intelligent you know and they don’t take much guff from anybody anymore. They’re raised different today and it’s a different world. Just think, I got to be part of it. 38:20 Interviewer: “Now, do you look back over that whole experience of playing professional ball, what do you think the main effects of that were for you? What did it do for you?” It opened you up a little bit to fight for what you wanted. I was lucky enough, I had good principals and I was surrounded with good people. A lot of athletic women—you don’t know how to say all that stuff. I think it was the right time or I never would have gotten into that and if they didn’t move me into Fort Wayne I probably wouldn’t have even 22 �known they existed. I lucked out there and I happened to be the right age. I wasn’t too smart, but I sure knew when to take advantage of something. 39:16 Interviewer: “You managed to become a science teacher. I think you’re pretty qualified and smart. I would be willing to bet that anyway. Anything else you would like to add to the record here before we close out the interview?” Interviewer: “Were you connected at all with the League of Their Own movie and the beginnings of the players association?” Yeah, we got that notice in a newsletter, I think, that they were going to do all that stuff and we just needed—a couple of us decided—Sue Kidd was still in South Bend, she went along and Jean Harding went, a couple of them around. You got in a car and went to New York. Interviewer: “Cooperstown?” Yeah, but first you had to go to Chicago. There’s one good thing about that, in Chicago, I was trying to think of the area where we were. 40:18 Interviewer: “You were in Skokie.” Yeah Skokie. In Skokie we were out to this ball diamond and we all had red shirts on with big numbers on them you know, and everything and we were all working out, running around the field’ hitting fly balls, and throwing and catching and this big bus pulls out there along the side over there. Of course we had a fence around there and this big bus comes and it stops out there and these big guys, big burly guys, get off that bus and here comes a couple other women off, but they were far away, and these guys walk way around the outfield and they just stand out there. 41:08 We were watching them and wondering what they were there for and here comes Madonna walking down off the 23 �sidewalk and of course we were all looking at her. Rosy O’Donnell was there and she was already out there talking to us and everything. Gina Davis, we didn’t see her there. She never was up there. They had the little sister though, Lori Petty, she was there, so that was our introduction to-Interviewer: “Hollywood” Yeah, they came in and landed at the airport and she got off there and I guess nobody was supposed to know she was in town and she had all this rig-a-ma-roll with her, but she made a nice entrance. She was a pretty good ball player too, I mean, she was one of the better ones. Interviewer: “Did you have to teach her a lot?” Not all that, you could see she’s athletic when you see her dance and that and she could do about anything she wanted to. 42:14 Interviewer: “Some of the other players talked about going there and they said she was in good shape, but she didn’t know how to play ball, but she learned and she worked at it.” She wasn’t too bad and probably the best one, because she use to play some, was Rosy O’Donnell, but Madonna wasn’t too bad though. Interviewer: “You also went to Cooperstown and were part of the stuff they filmed there too?” Yeah, we went there and there was a thing that happened there the last night at Cooperstown. Penny Marshal wanted to finish up shooting, so we were there until about four or four thirty in the morning and we had to walk down this ramp you know, and this little room, they had a glassed in case right in the middle of the room, so you either had to 24 �go around to the right or the left as you came down the ramp. We came down that ramp I bet twenty-four times. Penny had to keep reshooting everything, so I always went around the back of the little ramp, so I wasn’t in the way of the film too much because I didn’t want to be--anyway I’m going around that back. 43:22 Anyhow, Gina Davis, the old Gina Davis, that took her place was going to walk around that way also, and she would see her sister on the other side and they would finally embrace when they saw each other, in the movie stuff. Well anyhow, were walking around this little thing and then we walk back up again and after she’d get partway up there, she had a little flask under her arm and she’d take a little nip out of that flask and then we’d walk down that ramp again and around that thing and sometimes if she had to hesitate back there she’s take a nip from the flask. I wasn’t too far behind her and thinking, no wonder we’re down here until four thirty in the morning. She had to empty that thing almost because she was real busy on it. 44:15 She was something else, I’ll tell you. She tried to catch a ball out there and she broke a fingernail and then she had to stop and the whole film would have to start over on that. She should have been the whole movie herself, I’ll tell you. That was the old Gina Davis. That was funny. Nobody else probably told you that one. Interviewer: “What did you think of the movie?” I thought it pretty well had a lot of truth in it, but a couple things—they never fell over the fence and came up with a hot dog in their mouth or something like that, but that was Pepper Pare, Pepper pare made some of that stuff, but that’s Pepper Pare, she always had to have her two cents worth in. There’s a lot of them that got to have their two cents worth in, but that makes everything. 45:15 Interviewer: “What do you think they did a particularly good job with?” 25 �In the movie, it was a pretty fair story because that little boy that was in the movie, we had a little boy on our team. Jean Faut had a little boy, little Larry, that traveled with us and we would pick on him somewhat, we tried not to because if you were picking on him the other girls would tell you to quit, but we teased him, and Jean, she really, she kept her cool, picking on her kid, but he was a nice kid and Jean was—you couldn’t beat Jean Faut, that’s all there was to it and Karl was alright. Sometimes it wasn’t so good having your husband managing you, and Jean had some hard times with that, but hey, that’s life. When you’re that close together all the time, twenty-four hours a day. 46:16 Interviewer: “It really does sound like a great experience.” Your whole life, you sit down and—I never talked about my whole life before, but the best part of it, one of the best parts, was playing ball. You can’t beat playing ball and meeting the people that you meet and learning the geography of the country and just doing what you could do. It’s a free country and you could just do anything. Nobody can stop you if you don’t want them to. Interviewer: “Now you get to come back to these reunions and having been through my second one now, they are really something. Had you been going to the reunions since the beginning?” I hit everyone, and one year we had one—we had a meeting in St. Petersburg and the same year we went to Cooperstown. I was all ready—I sent my money in down there to Florida and then two of the people I was going to go to Florida with decided they were going to Cooperstown. 47:23 Well, there goes my ride down to Florida, so I rode with them and went over to Cooperstown and that’s why I was in Cooperstown when they 26 �were doing some of that, but that was all right. I wasn’t on the board yet or anything, things that didn’t bother too much. Interviewer: “Unless we got something else here guys, we are done. We are done and thank you very much for coming and talking to us.” Thank you 27 �28 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_MLBaumgartner Title A name given to the resource Baumgartner, Mary Louise "Wimp" (Interview transcript and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Baumgartner, Mary Louise Description An account of the resource Mary Louise "Wimp" Baumgartner was born in Fort Wayne, Indiana in 1930. She played in the AAGPBL from 1949 to 1954 as a catcher for Peoria and South Bend. She went to college in the off season, and after the league folded she became a teacher and coach for girls' athletic teams, and was actively involved in the promotion of girls' sports in Indiana. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Baseball players--Illinois Baseball players--Indiana Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-08-05 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/490e1497047331e64d3437312e50baae.m4v 927e1623046c85ddc5c33a69177edc9a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c7dfc7381049ee5a58128fc11b5ebdd3.pdf 15cb008424c9d04bd19243d22c5f4fd6 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University All American Girl’s Professional Baseball League Veterans’ History Project Interviewee’s Name: Maybelle Blair Length of Interview: (00:38:58) Interviewed by: James Smither, PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, September 27, 2009, Milwaukee, WI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion. Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, May 8, 2010 Born: 1917 Longvale, CA Resides: Palm Desert, CA Interviewer: “ Maybelle, can you start by telling us a little bit about yourself. To start with, where were you born?” I was born in Longvale, California, which is right next to the LAX Airport. Interviewer: “What year was that?” 1927 Interviewer: “Wow, you would never know.” Absolutely not. Interviewer: “At that point, what did your family do for a living?” My father was in charge of a park in Englewood, California. He started it off with the CC Camp and he was very fortunate to get the job and my mother was a housewife. 1:01 Interviewer: “How many kids were in the family?” Two. Interviewer: “Was your father able to keep his job through the thirties?” Yes, absolutely, that’s what saved us because we did go through the depression and we were very, very, very poor. Interviewer: “At what point did you start playing organized sports or even disorganized sports?” Oh, probably when I was about nine years old, because my brother, whom I worshiped and was seven years older than I, loved baseball, so naturally, guess what? Little sister was right behind him and followed him every step of the way and he would tell me to go home, but when the boys needed to have somebody at their batting practice, that was the 1 �time that I could play and I could go and shag the balls, which was very fortunate, I thought.. 1:49 Interviewer: “Did you play in pick-up games and things like that too? Did they let you play at some point?” Oh yeah, when they needed an extra person, guess who got to play and out in right field naturally, but at the time it was fun though. Interviewer: “How did that translate into your playing organized softball? When did you start that?” I started probably playing organized softball, probably in 1942. We had little industrial teams or local teams that they had, I joined that and that was a lot of fun when I was still in—actually grade school I guess. 2:31 Interviewer: “How old were you, do you think, when you started?” Probably twelve. Interviewer: “Did you have a favorite position?” Yes, second base. Interviewer: “Could you turn a good double play?” Oh my, they would hire me today if I was able, but I loved every minute of it, it was a lot of fun and the double play was great. Interviewer: “At this point, whom were you playing against?” Just little local teams, like some market or some department store or something like that. We had little leagues. 3:06 Interviewer: “How would you get to the games?” My father would take me and my brother would go along begrudgingly because he didn’t want to see sister play, it was boring. Interviewer: “Now, at some point do you move up a level in terms of the league that you’re playing in?” Yes, they started opening up a real good semi-pro league in Burbank, California and I was able to go and play in that league. I was real fortunate to be able to do that and that was quite exciting for me. Interviewer: “What year did that start up for you?” Probably 1942 or 43, right in there. Interviewer: “So it was about the same time that the All American Girls League was forming up in Chicago.” 2 �Right, I was still in high school and that’s when that took place. Interviewer: “Were most of the people that were playing in this league about your age or were they older?” Some of them were older, the ones that took off to play in the all American and there were some that were a little younger, both ways, but I was probably one of the youngest. 4:15 Interviewer: “Now you’re playing with this league, how far a field would you travel to play your games now, still local?” All over, and then I started playing with the Pasadena Ramblers and that was a traveling league during the war and we use to go and play the service men and all over the place. We went to San Diego, we went to northern California to all of the forts and all the bases and that was quite a lot of fun because the guy’s got a big kick out of it and we really got a kick out of it and that’s what we actually did, we went to play them and they had planned a trip for us to go overseas to play the teams and at that time the war had picked up and they said no, that it would be too dangerous for us to go, so we stayed home. 5:01 Interviewer: “How does it work? You arrange that you’re going to an army base or a navy base or someplace, how do they orchestrate that and look after you?” What they would do was, they would send a bus after us wherever we were or hire a Greyhound bus or there was another bus line, but I can’t remember what it was at that particular time, and they would charter that for us and take us down. We would go into the barracks where the women were and we would get dressed and all that we had to prepare for and after our ball games they would feed us dinner and the bus would take us home. Interviewer: “Were you playing men’s teams or women’s teams?” Men’s teams, they were all men’s teams. 5:45 Interviewer: “How did the male players react to that?” Well, they couldn’t believe it, that we could beat them. They thought, “oh god we’ll kill these women”, but they couldn’t beat us because they weren’t professional ball players, I mean good ball players, some of them were good ball players, but we would just cream them and when we did, they couldn’t believe it. Everybody in the stands, all the rest of the soldiers or navy or sailors or what have you, would just scream and holler at them, “you sissy, you can’t catch”, you know it was really fun. 6:18 Interviewer: “Now, the All American Girls Baseball League, they had their skirts and all this kind of stuff. What kind of uniforms did you have?” We just had shorts and a top and pants also. It was generally satin in those days that we all wore and that was a lot of fun. 3 �Interviewer: “It was better for sliding into base.” Absolutely, you would get strawberries and that didn’t feel too good. Interviewer: “Did you would still get strawberries even with the satin?” Absolutely, they even had little sliding slides that we had. They had it. Interviewer: “Now was the softball played with a sort of regulation size baseball field or a smaller field?” A regular softball field, and don’t ask me the size of the bases because I can’t remember that far. 7:04 Interviewer: “Are the distances a little bit shorter than baseball or longer?” Much shorter. Interviewer: “So in that way it was similar to what the All American Girls League was when they started out, when they played shorter dimensions.” Absolutely. Interviewer: “Now, in softball were you a good hitter?” A very good hitter and that was one of my strong points. I was a good hitter and I had a strong arm. Interviewer: “As a hitter did you hit line drives or long flies?” Line drives and I could whack the heck out of that thing and it was a lot of fun. I enjoyed it. Interviewer: “When you were with the Pasadena Ramblers, what was the farthest away from home you traveled?” Probably three hundred miles, north California and San Diego from Los Angeles. Interviewer: “They weren’t sending you out into the Midwest or anything like that?” No, no, no, just the California area, but we hit from northern to southern. Interviewer: “As you were doing this, did you have any kind of regular job at the same time or was the team your job?” I was in high school. 8:15 4 �Interviewer: “You were in high school and were you mostly playing in the summer when you sere out of school or would they take you out of school to go on these trips?” It was during the summertime, during our summer vacation. My mother wouldn’t let me out of school, period, no matter how I begged. Interviewer: “Now, how long were you playing in that league?” I was probably there until 1946 or 1947 when the scout saw me, the Chicago scout saw me and wanted me to come and play professional softball in Chicago. 8:51 Interviewer: “So there is professional softball in Chicago, was there a league up there?” Oh yes, a wonderful league up there, a strictly softball league and we played in the Chicago area and it was the best part of my life. Interviewer: “They were scouting the California league you were in, so the scout says, “you want to come up and play?” did you have to go and clear it with your parents?” Oh, are you kidding, that poor guy went through the fifth degree I’ll tell you, I felt sorry for him. My mother was just a---every question she could think of and he promised and promised to take good care of me and all I would have to do is put me on the train and he would pick me up at the other end. 9:41 I would have to write home so often or call home and that was guaranteed and he saw to it that I did. Interviewer: “Had you ever taken a long train trip like that before?” The first time in my life, I couldn’t hardly go to Englewood, California we were so poor, we didn’t have any money, so that was my very first trip outside of California. Interviewer: “Do you remember how long it took?” Probably a day and a half or two days on a train, I can’t remember, but it was exciting. 10:14 Interviewer: “When you got up to Chicago, what did they do with you?” Well, they met me at the train and they took me to a hotel and I was scared to death because I was there all by myself and I had never been by myself, so I pushed the dresser up against the wall and got me four baseballs and a bat and dared anybody to come in my room. It was really something, I was scared to death and I called my mother and she said, “I can’t afford this, get off the line”, so I had to cut the conversation pretty close, but oh my god I was scared. 10:49 I told them, “I can’t do this any longer, I can’t sleep, I can’t do anything”, so two days later I got my roommate in from Missouri, a gal, and we 5 �became very, very good friends and I was thrilled to death when she came, so she was my roommate during that period. 11:09 Interviewer: “Was there a specific team that you were assigned to then?” My assignment was with the Chicago Cardinals and it was a nice team and we had a real good team. Interviewer: “Now, did each team have their own home park or were their certain parks that everyone played in?” Everybody had their home park. Interviewer: “What was yours?” Except for our, that was the only on that didn’t, excuse me. We played at Bidwell Stadium and Bluebird Park, which Charlie Bidwell owned and his son now runs the Chicago Cardinals and there were several others. Interviewer: “They are the Arizona Cardinals these days.” Yes, the Arizona Cardinals, excuse me. 11:57 Interviewer: “There was a Chicago Cardinals football team.” Well, that’s the same one. They came out here and are now the Arizona Cardinals and that’s what he owned. Interviewer: “Did they pay you much of anything?” Oh yeah, I was rich, I made sixty dollars a week and my gosh, I had money that wouldn’t end. I was going to save it and go to college like a lot of us tried to do and I sent some home to my mother. I was a rich girl because the hotel room was only seven dollars a week at that time. 12:24 Interviewer: “What did they do in terms of chaperoning you or were you just on your own?” Out manager was responsible for us, he and his coaches, and they watched out for us. They did watch me very closely I’ll tell you, I was bad, I was bad. Interviewer: “Did you get yourself in trouble?” I was always in trouble having a good time that was my problem. I loved everybody. Interviewer: “What were the games like in this league?” 6 �They were wonderful, absolutely wonderful and we had some fantastic ball players like you see the Olympic teams today, that’s how our softball teams played ball exactly. Interviewer: “Was it a higher level of ball than you played in California or close?” Pretty close, but it was a higher level because they took the best ball players from each of the teams because they would scout and take them back to Chicago and that’s what happened. 13:26 Interviewer: “You’re playing and how long did you play for them?” I played there in 1947 and in the latter part of 1948 is when I hurt my legs and I couldn’t move and that’s when I was signed by Max Carey to go and play in the All American League. Interviewer: “All right, explain how that happened.” Oh god, like I said, I was at Parache Stadium and I was out showing off thinking---I was a show off for some reason and I could never understand that, but anyway, I pretended I was a major league pitcher out there throwing the softball and I could throw a curve and I had a good arm, so after I through showing off this guy comes up to me and said, “Maybelle would you mind coming over here I want to talk to you for a minute”, and I said, “no, of course not” and I went wobbling over and he said, “how would you like to go and play for the All American?” I thought for about two seconds and I said, “sure why not, I can’t do anything, but I don’t want to play anything but pitcher”, and he said, “that’s what I want you for”, and I thought, “pitcher, I never played pitcher before, but I’ll go”. 14:36 Well anyway, they signed me and I got in my car, I had a car at that time because I had saved my money, and I drove down to Peoria and they got me a hotel and I had a horrible toothache and these two little girls that were great fans went out and got me some toothache medicine and saved my life and anyway to make a long story short, I started pitching. 15:09 I was there for maybe a month and first of all he had me go out—he called me into the game, “Hey Maybelle come in and pitch”, and I said, “oh”, and here I come dizzy Dean herself is walking out there, so I was out there and somebody was on first base, I don’t know who it was, but I think it was Sophie Kurys. I wound up I’ll tell you, I wound up for forty minutes and by the time I got through unwinding that runner was on third base you know not knowing I forgot all about it that I had a runner on and that was the fun of it, I had a lot of fun. 15:49 They started bunting me because they found out I couldn’t move. Interviewer: “Ok, sort out your baseball career a little bit. How long were you with the team before they put you in, was it a month?” It was actually about a week and a half before he put me in and he kept me around for courtesy’s sake I guess for another couple weeks and then he called me in his office and he said, “I hate to have to tell you this, but I’m going to have to release you, but would you please come back next year when your legs are well because we can certainly use you.” 16.27 7 �Interviewer: “So he liked your arm anyway?” Oh yeah, I got a good arm still today. Interviewer: “When you were working out with them, before he had actually put you in the game, did they know you couldn’t run?” No, because I didn’t practice like I was running, I didn’t let them know. I kept it a secret all to myself. Interviewer: “So in the game, when you were playing, did someone try bunting on you to see what would happen?” Well yeah, exactly, because the rumor had gotten through because we had interaction between the leagues because when we were off we would go and visit the other kids and they said, “she can’t run so start bunting for god sake, she can’t move”, which was true. 17:12 Interviewer: “How did you hurt your legs?” Running. And I didn’t tell him and I was hobbling around there and could hardly run and for some ungodly reason the other leg was pulled and I cannot understand how I got two charlie horses, but I kept those babies for a long time, even after I came home it took quite a while to get rid of it. When I got home from playing ball I was hired by Northrop Aircraft. I wanted to go back and play again, but I had such a good opportunity that I couldn’t do it. This fellow I met was in charge of all traffic at Northrop Aircraft and he said, “I want you to come in, learn the job and I want you to be supervisor in transportation”, and I said, “oh come on, get off of it, I can’t do that”. I told him that and he said, “you have the personality for it, I need to get you in here to get these drivers in order”, and I said, “no, no, no”, anyway I finally decided to do it and I said, “the only way I will do it is if I can learn to drive every piece of equipment we have because I do not want to hear them razzing me or giving me a hard time that you picked the wrong person. 18:27 Anyway, he did and I worked my way up from courier hauling VIP’s all over like generals and presidents, heads of states and what have you all around, to dispatcher and I went on to be supervisor and then I became manager of all highway transportation for Northrop Aircraft. Interviewer: “Tell me a little bit about that courier job. Who were you driving around?” Big time—heads of state from all over the world because at that time we were building the F5 Fighter and we were trying to sell it, so we were selling it to all the different countries for their fleet or air force and I hauled lots of very important people. In fact, Ronald Reagan was one of them and to this day I was thrilled to death about that. He was Governor of the state at that particular time. 19:27 8 �Interviewer: “Were their other individuals whose names stood out as being particularly interesting or unusual people?” Oh sure, General Whitehead who was the head of the Pacific, and what was his name—I loved him, but several of them and I can’t remember right now. Korean generals and it was quite an experience for me. Interviewer: “Were you going into jobs that normally men had been doing?” Yes absolutely, it was all men and then when I became currier there were two couriers ahead of me and both girls. W wore one of those uniforms and I thought I was real cute. I was uglier than sin, but I thought I was cute. Anyway, that’s what we did and that was the only girls in the department and then I went on, like I told you, and became head of the department and one of my jobs was planning routes for the F18 aircraft to get it from Hawthorn Air Force Base to---from Northrop Field to Edwards Air Force Base. 20:45 I would have to go our and survey all of that—take down signs, trees, everything else because we had to get it there because that was going to be our future the F18, so luckily that was a real job and I got that sucker down there. One time when we were going through downtown L.A. because it’s got the wings on it, and this drunk comes staggering out of a bar in downtown Los Angeles he looked and the wing was practically going over his head and he went like this and turned around and went right back into the bar. He wasn’t seeing pink elephants he was just seeing airplanes. I can imagine what he went back in and told them. 21:31 When I got to Edwards Air Force Base it was so exciting because they had laid out the red carpet for me and after we stopped the aircraft and all the people got out, they were playing “off we go into the wild blue yonder”, and I got out of the truck and I couldn’t stand up, I was so weak I fell almost down on my knees, but they caught me, I was so excited, it was quite an honor. Interviewer: “Did you encounter any friction being a woman and going into these positions and telling men what to do?” At first I did, but the problem was is that I knew it very well and I knew what I was talking about and they couldn’t argue with me or try to pull the wool over my eyes and they soon learned that they couldn’t do that to me. I was fair, but I was strict. 22:17 Interviewer: “So the fellow that hired you knew what he was doing.” Apparently, I guess so and also, I planned the route for the B2 Bomber, so I was happy about that too. Interviewer: “Did you have to move that along surface streets too?” Oh yeah, not the whole bomber, but just the cockpit area. Interviewer: “But not the whole thing.” 9 �Oh no you couldn’t. Up at Palmdale they built the wings, but we built the cockpit at our facility and that was great too. I have to tell you too that I played for the New Orleans Jacks, the world’s champions. Interviewer: “Now when were you doing that?” I can’t remember what year that was, but it was while I was working at Northrop. I told my boss at the time, I said, “I have to have a whole month or so off because they are asking me and pleading with me to come and play for them”. I said, “Ok?” he said, “Ok”, so he gave me a month off. 23:11 Interviewer: “How did you get the invitation to play for New Orleans?” Well, they new about me playing back there and they were out here and they needed another ball player desperately, so I said, “ok” and I went and that was fun. Interviewer: “Did you play second base for them?” Second base. Interviewer: “Then where did you go when you were playing with them?” Oh, up through Canada, all through Washington, Oregon, Arizona and California. Interviewer: “Now, was this a point after the All American League had folded?” Yes that was, I would say that was probably down at about 1950 or 1951 maybe and I may be wrong there. 23:55 Interviewer: “It could be, in 50 and 51 the league was still going at that point wasn’t it?” Oh yeah, the league was still going, but I didn’t have time to go back and play ball, I couldn’t do that because I would lose my job and that was more important. Interviewer. “You could take the month and go with New Orleans?” Yes, they each gave me a month. Interviewer: “So you had a chance to go back and play a little bit after the injury?” Yeah, I did and that was fun. Interviewer: “Now, on that particular tour, what kind of crowds did you get?” Oh, fantastic, in fact we stopped at Bakersfield and played the world champion men’s baseball team and we had two sisters on the team known as the Savodas—the best baseball players or softball players or ball players I have ever seen in my life. During batting practice they, both of them, could take batting practice and hit it over the fence 10 �left handed and right handed, no problem, run like deer and throw—you cannot imagine how great they were, the two best ball players that ever lived. 24:52 Interviewer: “You played a men’s championship team, was that a championship softball team?” Softball team yeah. Interviewer: “So you weren’t playing the New York Yankees or something?” No, but during that game that we played them, the men had to pitch from the men’s league and the women pitched from out league distance to the plate and our pitcher was named Lotty Jackson and she stood about six one or two and she had a wind up that you couldn’t even see the ball. Ginny Finch today, I don’t think Ginny Finch is as fast as was this girl and these guys couldn’t hit her and it was so funny, we couldn’t hit him either, let’s face it, anyway he walked me somehow, I probably stood there with my bat on my shoulder and he couldn’t hit the plate, anyway, I somehow got over to third base and this manager we had, Freda Sevoda one of the Sevoda sisters, she said, “pretend like you can’t run”, and I said, “I can run”, and she said, “no, pretend like you can’t run”, and I said, “ok”. 26:00 She took over and what she noticed—we beat these guys and what happened was that the catcher, when he would get the ball sometimes, he would walk to almost where the pitcher was and give him this (a sign) and he would slowly start walking back to the plate, She noticed, that’s how smart she was, well he went out there and he gave a little pitch to the pitcher and she took off like a jack rabbit and slid right under him and we won one to nothing and I think there were eight thousand people out there for that game and they just hoot and hollered and that was really something. 26:35 I never was so tickled in my life. Interviewer: “Did they make any effort to get you to stay on?” They wanted us to come back and play, but we had a schedule and we couldn’t do it and the league didn’t like that at all, not at all Interviewer: “Was that the last time you were playing on organized ball?” Yes, that was the very last time and then I decided to hang it up. Interviewer: “Now, when you were working at Northrop etc., did people know anything about what you had done in the past in these different leagues and things?” During that time they didn’t know because the movie is what made it, if it wasn’t for the movie you wouldn’t have known about the All American Girls, you wouldn’t have known about the professional softball league because actually, they could have taken the softball league instead of the all Americans and made the same movie, but they didn’t, but people didn’t realize that there was two leagues or even one league, especially the western people, the Midwest knew it and in Chicago they knew it, but that was it, the 11 �south didn’t know it, nobody knew it until Penny Marshall decided to make the movie. 27:54 Interviewer: “How did you wind up hooked up with this organization that you played on one team for a short length of time?” They made the movie and they asked me to come and be in the movie, so I was in it when the old timers were at the end and what have you and that was the reason. Interviewer: “Did you know a number of the people who were in the league?” Oh yes, because I played softball with them and baseball and what have you. I have known quite a few of them for years. Interviewer: “At the time you were doing all these things, playing in these leagues or for that matter going into some of your jobs at Northrop, did you see yourself as a pioneer or were you just taking care of yourself?” Nobody did, nobody did until after the movie again. The movie was the making of everybody and even when you mention that you played in the all American or the National league they don’t know what you’re talking about and could care less, now they care, it’s amazing. 29:00 Interviewer: “What do you think of sort of the state of women’s sports today? Do you see yourself as being part of a larger trend?” I think it’s the most wonderful thing in the world, it has given all the girls the opportunity of scholarships, it’s not that they’re going to be great professional athletes, but it gives them the opportunity to go to college and that’s what I’m thrilled about. It gives the girls the opportunity to take the right step in their lives, whichever step that is. They have a choice. And thank God that happened; we’re so thrilled about it. 29:33 Before it was the good old boys and let’s face it, all we were supposed to do is stay home and put on our aprons and have kids. Interviewer: “How do you think your life would have gone if you hadn’t hooked up with organized softball?” What would have happened? I would have probably gone on to college and become a PE teacher. That’s exactly what I would have done. That was my goal in life because I didn’t think there was any chance to go and play professional softball or baseball, but it was there and gosh, how lucky we were, how lucky we were. Interviewer: “Is that what gave you the connections that enabled you to go into Northrop? Did these people know you from that?” No, no, I was in a function or something—I think I was giving a speech—I don’t know what in the world I was doing, anyway he came up to me and he said, “I need you”, and I 12 �said, “what do you mean you need me?” He said, “I’m da, da, da, da, and I want you to come to work at Northrop”, and I said, “well, I’m going to go to college”, and he said, “no, I want you to come to Northrop because I’m going to give you a good job and I’m going to open the door for you”, so maybe he saw something that maybe he thought I was a leader or something, that’s what I thought. 30:54 Interviewer: “If you were at a function and giving a speech, was this somehow in conjunction with what you had been doing already?” No, no I don’t know what the heck I was giving the speech about, I was giving a speech about—heck, I can’t remember what it was, but I was giving a little speech. I don’t know what it was, maybe about going to college—that’s what it was, I was going to go to college and what my career was going to be and what I was going to become, I think that was it. 31:19 Interviewer: “How do you think your time in these organized leagues affect you or change you? Did you grow up some because of this or learn things—that whole experience of going out to Chicago and all of that?” Yeah, it taught me a great deal because I had never even been away from my mother overnight to a girls party or sleep out or go anywhere to visit anybody, that was the first time and I learned a great deal and it was quite exciting and when they say they put the ropes around the suitcases, well I had ropes around my suitcase and I took off. 31:55 Gosh, I thought I was in hog heaven when I landed in Chicago and they picked me up. The buildings wow. Interviewer: “Although there was that part there where you had to barricade yourself in the hotel room when you got there, but the young woman who did that is not the same person exactly that the fellow from Northrop spotted and said, “I need you”, so something happened between there.” Well that was a learning process, absolutely a learning process and It’s not as easy as you think, I figured it out and when I went to Northrop I realized that if I really wanted to make it, I had to devote myself to it and quit being a kid anymore and quit fooling around. I still fool around, but anyway that’s the way it is. 32:43 Interviewer: “Well, it makes for a very good story and thanks for coming in and telling it to me today.” Hey, I hope you appreciate it. 13 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_MBlair Title A name given to the resource Blair, Maybelle (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Blair, Maybelle Description An account of the resource Maybelle Blair was born in 1927 in Longvale, California. Before joining the All American Girl's Baseball League she played baseball with her brothers at the age of nine and then later in 1942 at age twelve began playing organized softball. At about this time she played for a semi-pro league out of Burbank, California and then with the Pasadena Ramblers from 1943 to 1946 who she toured with playing games at army bases for servicemen. Her semi-pro career ended in 1947 when the Chicago Cardinals scouted her and signed her to be a pitcher. In 1948, Max Carey signed her to play on the Peoria Redwings as a pitcher. Due to an injured leg, her career was cut short and she only played a month with the Peoria Redwings. Later, she went on to play 2nd base for the New Orleans Jacks for a month in 1951. Her career ended with them ended when she was forced to choose between playing softball and giving up her job driving VIPs for Northrop Airport; she chose to quit softball. Blair wraps by mentioning how the All American Girls Professional Baseball League changed her perspective on the course of her life. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Illinois Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-09-26 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ce860846beff3ebbe53d4a60fe0b3471.m4v 48bf5617fbbff45352ca9b541e3a8b13 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e88e66c80c051d0b04a2df4f41026af7.pdf 39631be6f5556f7b91ed66ab656b3663 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans History Project Interviewee’s Name: Shirley Burkovich Length of Interview: (00:41:38) Interviewed by: James Smither PhD., Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Transcribed by: Joan Raymer February 8, 2010 Interviewer: “Shirley, can you start by telling us a little bit about your background, where and when you were born?” I was born in Pittsburg, PA and raised in a town just east of Pittsburg, Swissvale, went to school there and graduated from there. Interviewer: “What did your family do for a living?” My mom was a housewife and my dad worked in the steel mills. Interviewer: “You were born in the early thirties---did your father keep his job in the steel mills as you were growing up?” Yes, he worked there all the time. 1:57 Interviewer: “The town that you were actually in, was it an industrial town, a smaller one?” A small town just outside of Pittsburg, a suburb of the city. Interviewer: “When did you start playing ball?” I started playing ball, I guess, as long as I can remember. When I was small, we had a large back yard and that’s how I started, by hitting the ball up against the house, doing it that way and then I graduated to the vacant lots and the streets and alleys of the city. 2:31 Interviewer: “Whom did you play with?” Well, as you know, at that time there were no girl’s leagues or organizations, so you just went out and picked up a bat and a glove and you went to a vacant lot and you picked up with the boys. It was always the boys. Interviewer: “There weren’t any other girls that would play?” Not in my area, there were a couple girls that lived in an adjacent town that played, but in my city there was just me. Interviewer: “Did you have brothers that played?” 1 �I had a brother and he did play ball. He played in high school and then he played softball on men’s fast softball, so I kind of hung around with them as the “bat girl”. 3:21 They used me to shag fly balls because then they could stand up there and bat all day. I was the shagging of the fly balls and ten at the end of their session; I got a chance to hit. Interviewer: “So you got reasonable practice at a variety of different things?” A lot of practice. Interviewer: “Now, did you do sports in high school?” No sports in high school, at least not for the girls. 3:44 I didn’t really do anything, we got to use the gym during our lunch hour because that’s when the boys didn’t use it, so the girls would go on there and play basketball. Interviewer: “The school didn’t have girls teams at all?” The school did not have girls teams. Interviewer: “How did you first hear about women in baseball?” My brother is the one that actually heard about it, not heard about it, but read about it. He read about it in the newspaper that they were holding tryouts for the “All American girls Professional Baseball League” and he came to me and he said, “hey, what do you think about this? They’re holding tryouts for a baseball league.” And oh gosh, I said, “I don’t know”, I was sixteen years old and I said, “I don’t know if I’m good enough to play.” 4:35 He said, “Well, let’s go down and see”, so he took the day off of work and we went down to the park where they were holding the tryouts and we sat in the stands and the two of us kind of critiqued the girls playing and he said, “what do you think?” I said, “well, I think I’ll give it a try” and he said, “good”, so I went down and had the tryout and a couple of weeks later I got a telegram to report to spring training in Cape Girardeau, Missouri. 5:11 Interviewer: “What did they have you do in the tryouts?” For the tryouts, it was hit, run, throw, things like that, just an overall example of what you were capable of I’m assuming. How fast you ran, how well you threw, how your batting was. Interviewer: “How long did they spend on you?” We were there for a couple of days because there were a lot of girls there. I would say that there were over a hundred girls at the tryout. Most of them were from the Pittsburg area, but we did have some girls that came from out of state—West Virginia, Ohio, adjoining states, so we had a big turnout. It was a couple—if I remember, it was a twoday tryout. 6:07 Interviewer: “When exactly was this?” 2 �This was in 1948, late “48” in the late summer of “48” and then I didn’t actually report for spring training until April of “49”, the next year. Interviewer: “Were you in high school at that time?” I was still in school and actually, when I got the telegram to go, that’s school time, so my mom went to the school and we talked to the principle and explained the situation and asked if it would be possible for me to leave school, because it was two months, April and May, because school was out in June, so April and May. He looked at my grades and he said, “ok”, but that they would have to send the lessons along with me and I would have to complete those lessons back for those two months, which I was willing to do for that opportunity. 7:28 Then my mom, she said, “now wait a minute, I don’t know about this All American Girls Baseball League, I never heard of that”, and here I’m going out of state down to some Cape Girardeau in Missouri which we never heard of and she said, “I don’t know if I just want to let you go by yourself”. My dad was working, my brother was working, so she bought a ticket and went on the train with me and we went down to Cape Girardeau and she met the chaperone and met the manager and everything and she stayed for two days and saw that everything was on the up and up and that they weren’t taking me down to some place that she didn’t think was proper. 8:20 Then she left, left me there and actually the chaperone was Helen Campbell, who you were going to interview in California maybe. Interviewer: “I would like to be able to.” It would be wonderful if you could. Interviewer: “We have interviewed quite a few members of the league at this point and may of them were very young when they first signed up, high school age. I think you are about the first one that had a parent enterprising enough to go along and check it all out first. 8:56 Were you, at this point, assigned to a specific team or were you going to a general spring training where they would assign you?” I just went to a general training and then I was assigned to the “Muskegon Lassies”. Interviewer: “Tell me a little bit about the spring training itself. Do you have any idea why they were in Cape Girardeau?” No, that is what the telegram said, so that’s where I went. 9:22 Interviewer: “It may have been less expensive than Florida. What was the weather like when you were there?” It was nice as I remember. It was—I don’t remember unusual weather. Interviewer: “It might have been better than Pittsburg anyway.” Probably. Interviewer: “What did they have you do there, at spring training?” 3 �Training, It’s like most spring trainings, I would think, we had practice everyday, betting practice, fielding practice, they put you in different positions to how you worked in outfield, infield, batting things like that, running the bases, sliding, just general things and as we went along we had coaches, managers that would critique our performances I’m sure, because they would come up to you and say, “ok now, maybe if you held the bat a little bit this way”, or did this or did that or fielding, they hit you a hundred ground ball or something to see how your arm was. 10:39 Interviewer: “What did you think of the quality of the players you were seeing there?” They were better players than what I was playing against when I was playing in vacant lots and even the boys and that’s whom I was playing against. These girls were good, no question about it. I realized that I was in touch competition and if I was going to make this team, I was going to have to perform. 11:06 Interviewer: “Did you feel you sort of had to work harder than some of them or were they all working pretty hard?” I think everybody was working hard and I think all the girls were dedicated. We had a strong passion for the game, everybody was trying to do their best, trying to make the team and it was a very competitive spring training. You could see everyone you were playing against –you knew what you had to compete against and what you had to beat. 11:45 Interviewer: “What proportion of the people trying out actually made it onto the teams?” That I don’t remember how many out of that group that went to spring training. I know we all separated and I went to Muskegon and some of the other girls went to different teams and I don’t know who didn’t make it or was cut, but I’m sure some of them were because I was told that this was like another tryout. It was spring training, but it was another tryout. 12.23 Interviewer: “The movie version of things, at least in that first season, they had scene where people get to see names up on a board of who makes it and who doesn’t. You didn’t see anything like that?” I didn’t see anything like that. Interviewer: “How did you find out where you were assigned?” They just came to you and told you that you were assigned to the Muskegon lassie team and they gave you a ticket to Muskegon and you got on the train and you went. Interviewer: “Had you ever heard of Muskegon, Michigan before?” Nope. 4 �Interviewer: “What impression did you have of the place when you got there?” Well, like I said, this was the first time that I had actually been away from home by myself and it was an experience for me at sixteen years old. A lot of new friends, new people, so it was an experience for me. 13:14 Interviewer: “Where did they put you up once you got there?” When I got to Muskegon, I met the chaperone who was Helen, and the chaperone assigned the girls to host homes and there were two of us to a home and we roomed together, so she had a place set up for each of us. Interviewer: “Was it a nice place to stay? Did they treat you well?” Oh, the people were wonderful, I tell you, they couldn’t have been nicer, it was almost like being at home. 14:00 They took care of us, they made sure we had—I remember when we came home from road trips there would be a note on the table telling us there were sandwiches in the refrigerator and for us to help ourselves. They were just so nice and they came to the games and supported us and it was just very homey, if we needed anything—that type of thing. 14:25 Interviewer: “Did you stay with Muskegon for that whole season?” Yes, I stayed with Muskegon for the whole 1949 season and then after that season, they asked—they didn’t ask, they told you who you go to and I went on a touring team, which was the Springfield Sally’s and the Chicago Colleens that toured the United States, the eastern part of the United States. 14:54 The two teams toured together and we traveled into the east. Interviewer: “I’ll get into the barnstorming, but I want to go back to Muskegon in the meantime. What kind of ball park facility did you have there to play in?” Well, it was a nice stadium. The only thing I remember about it is from the dugouts back to the club house, you went under the stands and I can remember, I was a little bit taller than most girls, so I had to stoop going under the stands, I remember that, but it was a nice ball park. Interviewer: “What were the stands like? Were they open bleachers and could people throw things down on you when you went by?” Oh no, we were under the stands. 15:51 It was under the stands. Interviewer: “At that point how many different teams were you playing? Were there five or six in the league at that time or was it bigger?” Let’s see—I think there were eight teams at that time, in the league. Interviewer: “Now, how well did Muskegon do that year?” 5 �We didn’t do well. As I remember. I don’t remember exactly, but I know we weren’t in the championship series. We weren’t in the championship game. 16:25 Interviewer: “Now when you were playing, what position or positions would you play?” I was, I guess you call it, a utility player. I played infield, I played the outfield, so I kind of filled a hole somewhere. Whenever someone wanted to sit down or someone was hurt or whatever, I played that, so I played right field, left field, center field and I played all the infield positions. Played first base, second base. Interviewer: “Did you ever try pitching?” I didn’t remember pitching, but my last year in Rockford, I noticed in one of the stats that it said that I pitched one game. I think it was a no decision and it was just a few innings, so it must have been one of those games that were runaways and they just put me in, but in the league, anybody that could throw hard, they had them on the mound to see. Of course, some of didn’t have the control, we threw hard, but we didn’t have the control and that maybe we threw hard, but we didn’t have the control. 17:34 Interviewer: “Did you have a favorite position of the ones you took?” You know I really didn’t, I was just so happy to have the opportunity to play. I didn’t care where I played, just put me on. Interviewer: “ In that first season, how regularly did you play?” I played, I thought, pretty regularly. I was in and out of the lineup, some games I didn’t, if no one was out or hurt, I didn’t play, but I got into a few games. Interviewer: “How many position players would they normally have on one of these teams?” Well, we carried eighteen players I think, on the roster. Interviewer: “All players including the pitchers?” Yes, the regular roster was about eighteen players. Interviewer: “Then you would have a regular opportunity to get in there.” Yes. Interviewer: “Did they do much in the way of pinch hitting or pinch running or relieving people for defensive reasons and that kind of stuff? Were the replacements made during the game?” Oh yes, like you said, pinch hitting and pinch runners and things like that. Position changes 18:44 Interviewer: “How good of a hitter were you?” 6 �Well, you know, I wasn’t a homerun hitter, I wasn’t a power hitter, I was more of a singles hitter, more of a hit and run. I got a lot of run signs. I got a lot of sacrifice signs. Move the runner along, hit to right, move a runner from second to third, that type of hitting. Interviewer: “Did you strike out much?” I don’t know, I probably had my share. Interviewer: “If you’re a good bat handler then you’re getting---“ I was pretty good at bunting; I was able to lay down a pretty fair and decent bunt I think. 19:33 Like I said, I was more of a placement—placing the ball rather than a homerun hitter or a power hitter. Interviewer: “Now, at the time you came into the league, how strict were they at enforcing all the rules that they had come up with at the start?” Well, as far as strictness in enforcing the rules, if you played for Helen, you followed the rules. She ran a tight ship. Coming out of the marines, as a sergeant in the marines, she was pretty strict with us and especially the teenagers and those of us that were teenagers. The older girls, she probably wasn’t as strict with and that, but those of us that were teenagers, she kept a pretty good watch on us. 20:32 I remember one time—we were allowed to go out if some of the fans or someone would ask us out for dinner or whatever. This young fellow asked me if he could take me out to dinner and I said to him, “you will have to ask the chaperone”, because us teenagers had to ask permission and he said, “that’s fine, that’s not a problem”, so I told Helen that we were going to go, so he went in and talked to Helen and he came out and he was smiling and he said to me, “I didn’t want to marry you, I just wanted to take you out to dinner”, so I think she gave him the third degree. That’s just some of way it was. 21:30 Interviewer: “Did he, in fact, take you out at that point?” Oh yes. Interviewer: “Good, she didn’t scare him away completely then?” Oh no, but it was a funny situation. Interviewer: “Now, were you traveling around by bus at that point on your road trips?” Yes, by bus. Interviewer: “What was that experience like?” The buses were really nice. Some people use to say, “how did you do it? Those long bus rides and all?” You know, when you’re sixteen years old and you’re doing something you like to do, that was the least of my concerns, the bus ride. It was fun, it was a lot of camaraderie with the girls, we had good times, we had a lot of laughs, it was a joking time and just a lot of fun, so I never minded the bus rides. 22:23 7 �Interviewer: “I guess that was a good thing because you wound up in the barn storming thing the next year. Tell us a little bit about how that worked and what that was like.” Ok, that, we would go into a city for usually a three game series and would play three games in that city and after that we would move on to another etc. That was strictly living out of a suitcase for those months. Doing your laundry in the hotel Laundromat and things like that. We would stay at motels and places like that and then the bus ride and so that was, like I say, more living out of a suitcase than when you were on a team like Muskegon where you were home and then on the road. 23:16 Interviewer: “If you had to pick, which one would you like better?” It didn’t matter to me, I was playing baseball that was my passion, that’s what I love to do and either one of those worked fine for me. Interviewer: “How far a field did you travel when you were on this barnstorming tour?” We traveled through the eastern part of the United States mostly, it was just a month or two before the season ended, I broke my ankle, so that ended my season there, but it was mostly the eastern part of the United States, through Ohio, Maryland, West Virginia, Pennsylvania, places like that. 24:09 Interviewer: “Did you go farther south? Did you go down to Florida or over to Louisiana or places like that?” No, we were more in the eastern, kind of mid Atlantic area. Interviewer. “I guess there were two seasons where those teams went around on a barnstorming tour. Yours was the second one.” Right, the first one in 1949. I was not on, but I on in 1950. Interviewer: “Did you make it up as far as New York city when you were doing that?” That’s what I was just going to say, that about a month or so before we got there, I broke my ankle and I missed playing in Yankee Stadium, they played in Yankee Stadium and I missed that. 24:57 Interviewer: “Did you go to some big cities when you were on this tour or mostly small ones?” They were mostly small ones, all small cities. Interviewer: “What kind of crowds did you get when you went to these places?” We got good crowds. Attendance wise, I don’t know, a thousand, tow thousand, but we had good crowds. We drew very well, we were advertised, you know it was advertised, 8 �and we did radio interviews and things like that, so you know, they knew we were there and I think too it was maybe a curiosity thing where people just came out to see if we could really play ball. 25:43 Interviewer: Did you do a lot of publicity things of different kinds? Were you interviewed on the radio yourself?” Yes, they use to interview us that was part of our job, to promote the league and so yes, we did radio interviews, newspaper interviews, because they would have pictures in the paper and they would have advertisements in the paper, so yes, we did a lot of PR stuff. 26:13 Interviewer: “You said you broke your ankle, now how did you break your ankle?” It was a—it rained that day and we played that evening. Of course the field was covered, the infield was covered, but the grass was wet and because of our bases, which were shorter than the ninety-foot men’s bases, it brought the bases just to the edge of the grass of the infield. I was sliding into third base and the grass was wet and my spike caught in the grass and I slid and you know that wet grass wrapped around that spike and my foot stopped, but I went. 27:02 Interviewer: “Now, once that happened, did they send you home?” Yes, I was in the hospital for a couple of days while they set the ankle and then I went on home. Interviewer: “Had you gone home between those seasons? Did you go home on the off-season? Oh, yes, but during the season, no. Interviewer: “So, the ankle heals eventually, did you back in then for another year?” The next year in 1951, I went back and I was assigned to Rockford, the peaches. I spent my last season with Rockford. Interviewer: “Was that a better team than the Muskegon team?” Well, they were—Rockford was kind of the crème of the crop, if you want to say, but they were a good team, yes. That was a great experience, I played with some great ball players on that team, but that Muskegon team, I don’t want to downgrade them because, listen, all the girls that played in that league were terrific, just wonderful, they had to be the best ball players that we had in the states. 28:25 Interviewer: “Sure, anybody on any major league baseball team today is going to play a whole lot better than me, even when I was a lot younger. “Who were some of the best players that you played alongside?” 9 �Oh gosh, Dotty Kavichek, Shorty Prior, Doris Sams, Mickey McGuire, Jean Fout, just like I say, you could just go on and on with these girls, they were just good ball players. 28:58 Interviewer: “now, when you were with Rockford, did Rockford make the playoffs that year?” I can’t remember if we made the playoffs. Interviewer: “I think South Band won the championship that year.” I think south Bend, but I don’t think Rockford made the playoffs that year. I don’t know, maybe I was a jink to them. The teams that I played for, we never made the playoffs. Interviewer: “Now, in Rockford, when you were living there, did you have the same kind of a set-up as you had in Muskegon?” Same set-up as Muskegon. We lived in host homes and had a roommate and played, but the people in Rockford, again just like Muskegon; the people were just wonderful to us, just wonderful. 29:48 Interviewer: “Did you have a chaperone as tough as the first one?” No, no, I don’t think there was anyone like Helen. Helen had to be the—I only had three chaperones, the ones from the touring team and Helen and then Dotty Green in Rockford, but Helen had to be my favorite, my favorite. Interviewer: “In general, how well did you adjust to the rules and the expectations of the league? Was it fairly natural for you did you or not?” Well, adapting to them was easy because I didn’t want to do anything wrong, anything to get me off the team and you know, some of the girls would miss curfew and things like that, but there was no way that I was ever going to do that. I wasn’t ever going to do anything that would jeopardize my chance to play baseball, so I followed the rules to the letter. 30:54 Interviewer: “You were probably happy that you had somebody that was very clear about what the rules were?” Yes, probably. Interviewer: “Now you only played in the league for three years, was it your own choice not to come back for 1952?” Yes, in 1951, I could see that the league was not going to last. Things were—the crowds were not as good and a lot of the teams were in financial trouble and I had an opportunity to get a job at that time and I had to decide between that opportunity to take that job or go back for maybe another one season or maybe two, I didn’t know how long it was going to last and so I thought, well, I think I better set myself up for job that I had a little security. 32:04 10 �Interviewer: “What job did you take?” I had a chance to go to work for the telephone company and I went down and interviewed for the telephone company and got the position and went to work for the telephone company. I spent thirty years with them and retired in 1983. It probably was the best decision that I made. Interviewer “Now where were you working for the telephone company?” In California. I got time—after the 1951 season, I finished the 1951 season, I came to California and I spent the next year just kind of getting my priorities together—what am I going to do? In 1953 I took a job with the telephone company and stayed on with them. 33:03 Interviewer: “What prompted you to go to California in the first place?” I had family out there. My brothers and sister were living out there at the time and I liked it. I had been out there in 1948 for a vacation and I liked it and so when I finished playing ball I thought, “I think I’ll go back to California”. Interviewer: “during the time that you were actually playing, did you have any kind of sense that you were doing something kind of unusual or significant that women were out there doing this sort of thing or were you just focused on playing the game? Playing the game. You know when we—when I first went into the league, I thought that this had to be the greatest thing that ever happened to me and I didn’t care about anything except playing and having that opportunity, so as far as thinking to myself that this is something special, I never did. In fact until the day left the league, I never thought it was anything special, I didn’t see any need to talk about it or tell anybody. 34:24 Someone would say, “you played baseball”, well, some people say, ‘who cares”, and most people thought it was softball and everything, so it was just never anything that was brought up in conversations or whatever, so it just went by the wayside as something you did, it was over with and even though it was something that I thought was going to be my career. I was sixteen years old and I thought I could play until I was thirty-five or forty and thought it was my career. I planned on nothing else, I didn’t go on to college, didn’t do anything and I thought that it was my career and when I quit, I thought “that was it, I did it and it’s done”. 35:17 Interviewer: “After that you go to work and what kind of work did you do for the phone company?” I started out as an operator and then my last year, and I went through several departments, and ended up in the engineering department when I retired. Interviewer: “You got a career for yourself and you’re out in California, which is a somewhat kind of progressive place, and you go into the sixties and the seventies, you got a women’s movement going and the push for things like Title Nine and all kinds of stuff going on, were you paying much attention to any of that, or were you 11 �thinking of how the women’s baseball league related to that or were you not putting those pieces together at that time?” 36:00 We started working with other ex-major league ball player on free clinics for girls and boys. The clinics use to be strictly for the boys and then we started going out and saying in these clinics, “girls and boys”, and there was a group of us, some ex-dodgers and exAngels that they put together this group called “Sports Educators of America”, and we went out, this was just in the Southern California area, and we would go out and do these free baseball clinics for the kids and we would try to incorporate education and sports. Telling the kids that education is just as important because you ask the kids, “who wants to be a major league ball player?” Well, everybody raises their hand, so then you say to then, “well, all right, there are 700 positions in major league baseball, what if you don’t make it, then what?” so we tell them that they’ve got to have something to fall back on, so we start stressing education in sports to these kids trying to encourage them to stay in school and have a back-up just in case they don’t make it in the baseball world. 37:27 I can always relate to that because that’s what happened to me. I thought baseball was always going to be my career and I didn’t plan for anything else. Fortunately, I got a job at the telephone company and at that time the companies were more like families. They weren’t like they are today where your just a number. The telephone company was like a family, so I had the opportunity to work for them, but to now days not have a back-up, so that’s what we have been doing now for the last ten or fifteen years, going out to these clinics and working with young people. 38:19 Interviewer: “How did you wind up hooking up with the men players, but I guess this is something that maybe happened after the movie “A League of Their Own” came out? Right. Interviewer: “How important was the movie in terms of drawing attention to that past or having you revisit it or think about it again?” The movie was everything. Had it not been for the movie we would have still been obscure. The Cooperstown, that to the ball players, that Cooperstown event was, as far as I’m concerned, was the most important thing, to be recognized by the Hall of Fame men’s organization and to be recognized by them in their facility. It was the greatest thing that ever could have happened to us. 39:19 That was just ball players that had that, but when the movie came out, that brought it out to the public, brought it out to the world and that’s what brought us out to the public eye. If it hadn’t been for Penny Marshal and that movie, we would have known what we thought with the hall of Fame, but the public would not have known, so yes, the movie was everything. Interviewer: “What do you think you took out of that experience of playing professional ball? Did it change you?” 12 �Not only did it change me, but I learned so much about team work, camaraderie, trust in people, it was just a wonderful experience and I don’t think I could have gotten that from any other profession that I would have gotten into like I got from that league. 40:33 Interviewer “I’m not sure how you really could in exactly the same way. There wasn’t anything else like it and for a very long time after. We now have the WNBA etc., but that’s much more modeled along the way these modern media oriented teams and things are done. The kind of experience and the closeness that you had as a group and that sort of thing may be something that didn’t really repeat it’s self in other places. I don’t think so. I got so much satisfaction out of the league and we still, as you see, we still have friendships that have lasted for sixty years. 42:21 Interviewer: “What was it like coming to the reunions and getting involved with this group and seeing people that maybe you had played with or trained with and after all those years, there they were again? My first reunion was—they started earlier in Chicago and I never went to any of those because I was in California and I just never went, but in 1988 they had a reunion in Scottsdale Arizona and that was kind of right next door, so I thought it was a good opportunity for me to go over to Arizona and just—well, I haven’t missed one since and it has just been such a wonderful experience. 42:08 The first time , that was the first time seeing these gals after, at that time, forty years and just the expressions on our faces when we met each other and saw each other for the first time, I just can’t explain it, how it was. Interviewer: “It sounds like it was a remarkable experience on the whole and you tell your story well, so thank you for coming in. You’re welcome. 42:38 13 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_SBurkovich Title A name given to the resource Burkovich, Shirley (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Burkovich, Shirley Description An account of the resource Shirley Burkovich was born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. She played softball with the neighborhood boys and her brother throughout her childhood. She first heard about the All American Girls Professional Baseball League one day when she was reading the newspaper. Her brother took her down to where they were holding tryouts; she tried out and afterwards was told to report to Cape Giradeau, Missouri for spring training. She played with the Springfield Sallies during the 1950 softball season and then was traded to the Rockford Peaches where she played out the 1951 season there. During her time in the league, her fondest memory is hitting the game-ending single to center field in 12-inning game. While with the league she played utility infield and utility outfield. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Illinois Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-09-26 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2e33d53e7013aa24d4c7566ada18a85c.m4v 0dd3a7d8d927c1b14e437c0a135907b3 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/92c152dc2fc473078b0a4117896abf80.pdf 8b7f2d67bd3e1feebbd5eb820b289c2f PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans History Project Interviewee’s Name: Mary Lou Caden Born: Oaklawn, Illinois Resides: Hot Springs Village, Arkansas Interviewed by: Gordon Olson on September 26, 2009 in Milwaukee, WI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League Reunion. Transcribed by: Joan Raymer March 24, 2010 Interviewer: “I like to start with some basic background information. Where your home was, where you were born, a little bit about your parents and family and then we will ease on into baseball.” Ok, I was born in Oak Lawn, Illinois, which now is just a suburb of Chicago and my dad was a harness maker. He had a shop in the stockyards and he made leather goods-saddles, bridles and we boarded his rented horses out on the farm. I had seven brothers and I was the baby and the only girl and I wasn’t spoiled—I had to fight my way through life. My dad got killed in an accident when I was five and we moved to the city. There were four brothers at home plus me and my mom. I was never much for feminine things because of having all the boys around, so I more or less learned how to do everything that a boy should learn how to do. My mother taught me how to cook, embroider, sew and things a girl needs to know and I swore when I grew up I would never iron kitchen towels again, which I don’t do. I competed with my brothers in sports in the neighborhood. We didn’t have equipment like they have now and we would come home from school and change—put your school clothes away and put on your play clothes and find a vacant lot and go play ball or whatever was in season. Interviewer: “And the popular kid was the one with the ball, right?” 2:14 Right. The brother closest to me, the seventh son, he wasn’t too athletic, so he was always kind of like the last one picked for a team and he always complained to my mother, “why doesn’t she go play with the girls?” He felt bad about that. Interviewer: “You were picked before he was?” Yeah, so my mom told me, she said, “you better go find someplace else to play, Tommy feels real bad about this”, and I could understand when I got older you know, but I started going up to the park and I had a glove, my sister-in-law got me a glove or my brother did, and I went up to the park and started playing with the fellas who were practicing. Pretty soon I got to play practice games with them, but I couldn’t play in the park league games, they didn’t allow girls, but I got enough practice games in and I really enjoyed it. 3:15 Interviewer: “How old were you about?” 1 �I was about fourteen. Interviewer: “The park had a league for boys, but nothing for girls?” They had volleyball and dancing and stuff like that. Interviewer: “Not your favorite activities.” No. Interviewer: “You’re about fourteen at this point, so how do you get from there to playing on a team? What was the transition?” 4:45 The athletic director of the park had a couple of girls ask him about playing softball, so he got the advertisements in the paper and he got enough girls come out to start softball teams, fast pitch, but I still played with the boys whenever I got a chance. The Chicago Daily News hired Rogers Hornsby to go out to the parks and conduct baseball clinics. When he came to Marquette Park I was out there with the fellas. They told everybody to be sure to show up because they got a big shot coming to teach you how to play and being the only girl, I got a lot of attention and a lot of publicity in the neighborhood. Rogers Hornsby was a friend of William Wrigley, who started the girls league in 1943, now I’m talking 1946, so he went back and told Wrigley about the fella in Marquette Park that had girls playing and they contacted this fella, his name was Lenny Zintak, and they got him to organize farm teams. 6:03 He sent out notices to all the parks for tryouts. They had tryouts on the north side of Chicago, a tryout on the south side and he had over 120 girls show up. He picked out the best and he had four teams, two on the north side and two on the south side. We played twice a week; we played anywhere they had lights, sometimes we would play on a Sunday afternoon if we could find a place with lights. 6:31 Interviewer: “You couldn’t play on Saturdays because the boys were all playing?” Saturdays were usually real busy with other activities, so he tried to keep it one week night plus Sunday afternoon. We got a lot of experience and we had a lot of fun doing it, we had chaperones, the same as the league did. In fact, my chaperone picked me up because I was only fifteen and I couldn’t drive and another gal from the south side was only thirteen, she picked her up, and that girl went on to play one year with South Bend, but her mom thought she was too young for all that traveling, so she brought her back home. 7:24 Interviewer: “I bet that was hard for her.” Yea, it was. I got an offer to go to Cuba spring training in 1947 and boy I was in seventh heaven when I opened the envelope and read this. I showed my mom I was going to Cuba and she looked at it and said, “that’s in April”, and I said, “Yea” and she said, “Well, you’re in school until June”, and she wouldn’t sign, so that was the end of that. Interviewer: “How old were you at this point?” 2 �Fifteen, so old fashioned family—you live in my house, you follow my rules and we did that. I played every year in the farm system and got a lot of experience. I started out playing shortstop and then I broke my ankle, never did learn how to slide right, and I played outfield and when they went to side arm and overhand pitching, Lenny switched me to pitching because I have a strong arm. 8:25 Interviewer: “You’ve been a shortstop for one thing, so you had more experience throwing overhand than maybe even some of the underhand pitchers had.” From playing outfield too. I graduated high school in 1949 and had an appendicitis attack, so I was able to hold that off until after I graduated. I had a job at the First National Bank of Chicago while I was still a senior in high school, because it was a part time job at the bank and I had to wait until I could be covered by hospitalization to have my appendix taken out, because we didn’t have money or a doctor and that was in 1950. 9:12 I managed to play the tail end of the season in Chicago in 1950 and then my manager, Mitch Skupien, was contacted to come up and manage the Grand Rapids Chicks, so he came over to the house. He was Polish and I’m Bohemian and he could talk to my mother and they understood each other and he said, “ma, I’m going to take Mary Lou with me to Grand Rapids, she’s going to pitch for my team”, so mom said, “ok, go ahead”. Even though I was of age, you still waited for your parent’s permission to do these crazy things, because a girl playing baseball was crazy. 9:52 I went up to Grand Rapids in 1951 and I played there in 1951, 52 and 53 and they traded my contract to Fort Wayne because they had dropped down to four teams and they wanted to try to even off the teams. They sent me a contract and they said, “we pooled the players and you will now be playing for Fort Wayne and you will be making sixty dollars a month less”, and I said, “not on my boat”, because I had a good job at the First National Bank, I was a bookkeeper. Interviewer: “The rest of the year and the bank gave you release time all summer to play baseball?” I had a real terrific boss, he was sports minded and I’d leave in April and come back at the end of September and it worked out fine for three years, but when they wanted to cut me sixty dollars, I was making more money at the bank and being Bohemian that meant a lot to me. 10:57 I said, “no way, I’m retiring”, and I didn’t play in 1954, which was the last year the league survived. Interviewer: “By the end of 1954 there wasn’t a lot left.” They weren’t making—they were losing money. Interviewer: “Let’s back up a little bit and use that outline to talk about some specifics. Among other things, what’s your recollection—you did some spring training before the season started. First of all, where did you do the spring training and what was it like?” 11:34 The first year we trained in Battle Creek, Michigan I think. 3 �Interviewer: “So it started a little bit later—we think of spring training now as almost a winter activity.” It was April and I had the distinction of being the only Grand Rapids Chicks that gained weight at spring training. We met for breakfast, they brought sandwiches and milk to the ballpark at lunchtime and we met for training table in the evening. Well, a lot of the girls didn’t eat oatmeal; they wanted eggs and stuff, so I said, “Aren’t you going to eat that oatmeal? Pass it down”. At dinner a lot of them didn’t eat salad, so they would pass them down and I gained ten pounds and Mitch, the manager, he said, “how did you sneak out for hamburgers and milk shakes and stuff?” I said, “I didn’t spend a penny, I didn’t spend a penny”. 12:40 My teammates knew it. Interviewer: “There was other food to be had and that’s good. They put you through a pretty rigorous spring training then. You were up for breakfast and then out on the field. You stayed at the field at noon?” We stayed at the field at noon and I think we had an hour break. We sat in the bleachers and ate our lunch and then we started out again. I worked pitching, naturally, and then we would all do calisthenics together in the morning and then we would break for infield, outfield, pitching practice, and then the pitchers would run and we would shag fly balls while the outfield was throwing in to first, second, third, you know, with the regular fielders and stuff, but we were kept busy all day long. 13:34 Interviewer: “ The coaches you were dealing with, these are former major leaguers in a lot of cases?” Major leaguers. Interviewer: “Men?” Yea. Interviewer: “They had experience with baseball and coaching, so they gave you pretty much the same routine, pretty much, that you would expect to find in professional baseball at other levels.” True, and the next year, 1952, Woody English was our manager. They started out the season, because English accepted a contract from Muskegon, Michigan and they brought in Jonny Gottselig, who was a former Blackhawk hockey player and for some reason he wasn’t going to stay the whole season, so they brought in Woody English in 1952. 14:25 Woody was great, he was really great, I mean he knew baseball and he was a perfect gentleman. People ask us about the movie, A League of Their Own and Tom Hanks, I think Woody and what a perfect gentleman. He would walk out to the mound when I was pitching and when I was in trouble and he would say, “M.L. how are you feeling?” He was real concerned like a father would be and when they had Tom Hanks portraying this drunken manager, it was such a slap in the face for fellas like Woody who really did their job and gave a hundred and ten percent. 15:06 4 �Interviewer: “You’re not the only former Chick that talks that way about Woody English. He did his job—he was a professional too. He had a good career and then he continued to conduct himself as a professional. I have a letter at home—after the 1951, my fourth year, I won twelve games before I lost one. I had a hard time winning number thirteen, so my record was 15 and 5, so in 1952, when I got my contract, I got a little raise, but it wasn’t much and I talked to Woody and I said, “I think I deserve more money than that”, so Woody said, “I’ll tell you what M.L., if you win fifteen games, I’ll give you two hundred dollars”, so he wrote it out and signed it and I still have it, it’s precious. Well, I won twelve and I lost thirteen, so I didn’t make the two hundred. 16:03 Interviewer: “It sounds like maybe your teammates didn’t give you a lot of support.” Well yeha, it proves out because on my baseball card I had a nice low earned run average, so it wasn’t a hundred percent my pitching, I had a little help losing. Interviewer: “Yea, you can get beat one to nothing and pitch really well that’s for sure. Do you remember your first contract and how much you got paid?” My first contract, I got three forty five a month and then on the road, they paid our hotel and we got dinner money, I forget what it was. 16:46 Interviewer: “Do you remember your chaperone?” Dotty Hunter, absolutely. Interviewer: “Was she good?” A wonderful woman yes, 1952 we were playing in Battle Creek and you would swear it was December—it was cold and I was pitching that night, so I lathered myself up with red hot, sweatshirt, uniform and I went out there and I sweated up a storm warming up, pitched a game and in between innings—the rest of me was freezing—my arms were burning, but the rest of me was freezing. Well, I caught a cold and I kind of sluffed it off, but it settled in my kidneys, so for I think maybe a week after I pitched, I started feeling kind of groggy and I would sit in the dugout and fall asleep. 17:50 Dotty Hunter came up to me one time in the locker room, I was sitting there waiting for the players to shower, I wasn’t in any hurry, I was tired, I didn’t do anything, but I was tired. Dotty Hunter said, “M.L. you’re not drinking are you?” I said, “no, I don’t feel good”, and she made me go to the doctor the next day and I had to give a urine specimen and they found out that I had a cold that had settled in my kidneys, so they gave me prescriptions and took me to where I was boarding. I was living with a widow, she had a son and a daughter and I was boarding there. They told her that I was sick and I medicine and she said, “I’ll take care of her”, and she nursed me just like a mother would. 18:40 She made me get up in the morning, drink juice, clean up, eat soup, all soft good stuff, made me take my medicine and stuff like that and after about a week my mother called because I hadn’t written to her every day and she didn’t know what was the matter, so she just told her I was sick, but getting better. She knew something was wrong and Woody said 5 �to me, “you know, I was worried about you, I didn’t think you were the type that would do something like that”. Interviewer: “He knew something was wrong though. That was the case with a lot of the players, wasn’t it? They lived with families?” Oh yeah, we all did, all the cities. I know in the movie they showed all the girls living in a boarding house, but no, that wasn’t true. Some places there would be four girls that would stay with one family, sometimes a widow would have a couple extra bedrooms. 19:51 The ball park people, in different towns, would interview people that were interested in putting up the girls and they picked out people that were suitable and could pass the muster, so it worked out real well. Interviewer: “So that was a good environment and made your mother a little more confident that you were in good hands.” Absolutely and I will tell you this, the gal that was my chaperone in Chicago in the farm system, convinced my mother she had to come and see me play ball. They came down to South Bend and South Bend had a pitcher, her name was Jean Faut, she was top notch and about a week before we had played South Bend in Grand Rapids and I was pitching against Jean Fout. I’m up to bat and Jean Fout throws a fastball inside and I jump back, the next pitch she throws a curve inside and I’m thinking it’s a fastball and I’m not going to look chicken again, so I stood there and it whacked me in the inside of my thigh, so a week later I’m down in South Band and I’m scheduled to pitch, so I come out with the catcher just before the game started to warm up and I was black and blue and purple and green 21:13 and my mother’s sitting up in the stands with out chaperone and she sees that and she says, “my god, you would think she would wash her legs”, and I didn’t know this until I came home in September when the chaperone came to see me and told me about it. Then she said to her, “those guys in the black, what team are they on because they all got the same black?” I had to kind of explain baseball to her. 21:48 My mother was forty-three when I was born, so by the time I was twenty, she was sixty-three and there was no sports in our lifetime and there was no television, so she didn’t have the opportunity to learn about the game of baseball. Interviewer: “But her daughter was playing and she went to see it.” 22:06 Oh yeah. Interviewer: “You mentioned Umpires and this is a good chance to ask you about the Umpires in the league a little bit. How good were they and did you have any problems with them?” They were mostly pretty good, but we had a few that were kind of borderline. I disagreed with one guy and I got fined ten dollars for my disagreement, but Woody paid it for me. He said, “I know you can’t afford it, I’ll take care of it”, but it was just a call, third strike or a ball four and I lost it, so I kind of disagreed with him. 6 �Interviewer: “When you say kind of disagreed, it sounds like maybe you got in the Umpires face a little bit.” Well, I walked up and I said, “why did you call that”, and he told and I said, “you’re full of---“, and that was it. 22:59 Interviewer: “Take a seat. Do you remember the first game that you played when you went up to Grand Rapids?” Yes I do. Interviewer: “Tell me about it.” Well, I was nervous actually and I didn’t want to seem to cocky, being the new kid on the block, but we had a lot of players that were very supportive, Connie Wisniewski, Doris Satterfield, Alma Ziegler, Inez Voyce, Corky Olinger, short stop and when I was warming up and when I came out you know, “Ziggy”, she was the captain of the team, she came out to the mound and said, “ok M.L. let’s get ‘em”, like there was nothing to it and I kind relaxed a little and as they started striking out and grounding out easy grounders, I kind of got a little confidence and we won the game and I felt real good, but I didn’t feel cocky. 24:09 I just felt good because the team had played good too. I remember one game I lost and I thought, “I’m going to kill everybody before this night’s over”, they were bootin’ the ball all over the place and “Ziggy” walked over and handed me the ball after we finally got one out and she said, “hang in there M.L.”. You know teammates, everybody has good nights and bad nights and it just happened that five teammates had a bad night on the same night. 24:38 Interviewer: “They don’t go out there to deliberately miss the ball.” No, but all and all I felt really good about it and it gave me a lot of confidence that my teammates were behind me. Interviewer: “What kind of a hitter were you?” I could bunt. I really could bunt. I use to practice bunting at home. I would have anybody I could find throw a ball so I could practice to bunt and I forget who he had come up to teach us how to bunt. I know we had Maury Wills come out one time to teach us how to run bases. Interviewer: “Really?” 25:21 In Grand Rapids, I think that Woody English got him out. I’ll never forget that because I saw Maury Wills one time at a fan fest and when it came time for the audience to ask him questions, I asked him how he felt about base runners today and I asked him, “were you ever uninjured?” He said, “no”. I said, “I know you were hurt a lot”, and he said, “You played hurt”. 25:55 Interviewer: “You played hurt because you’re sliding around out there without---“ 7 �If you didn’t play, there was somebody waiting to take your spot, so if you wanted to stay in the game, you played hurt. Charlie horses, and all the gals that did a lot of sliding., but being a pitcher, I didn’t really have to slide, but I could run bases, I was a good base runner. I did learn and to this day I’m amazed at girls in baseball. I’ve gone out to watch quite a few games. Fast pitch, softball, and baseball and you get there early and you sit in the stands and you watch them practice or play. We were impressed with the idea that you watch your opponents to find out what their weaknesses were. Lenny Zintak taught us as kids, Mitch Skupien enforced it and Woody would always say, “did you see that she couldn’t hit a high ball in batting practice?” You learn how to keep your mouth shut in the dugout and pay attention to what was going on. 27:12 Today you go to a game and watch and the girls are talking and laughing and talking to people in the stands and I don’t know how they do it. Interviewer: “Today you go to a game and watch major leaguers and they’re not paying attention.” They’re blowing bubbles and it’s kind of pathetic and especially with the men, they’re making big money. They get caught off base and I don’t want to criticize athletes, but give me a couple million and man I’ll show you stuff. If you’re watching a pitcher, you can pick up their weaknesses when they’re in their stretch position. What are they doing? Are they lifting the back heel, are they bending their knee, are they twitching their shoulder, what are they doing signaling their going to throw home. They don’t watch that anymore. 28:11 Interviewer: “They don’t seem to.” I can’t blame the athletes, I blame the coaches and I blame the guy paying those salaries. If you work for a company and you don’t do your job, the boss says, “hey, straighten up and live right or else we got somebody else waiting for your job”, but now days they get so hooked on the publicity and all the crazy stuff. 28:36 Interviewer: “They market them like they were in Hollywood.” Yeah. Interviewer: “What’s the best game you ever pitched? I’m sure you remember it. You had several good ones.” I can’t really pin one. Any time I won a game, I felt that was the best one, but I don’t think there was one more than any other. I had a one hitter and I never had a no hitter. I had a one hitter and it didn’t really phase me and when the game was over they said, “Hey M.L. you had a one hitter”, and it was no big deal. We won and that’s what counted. 29:22 Interviewer: “Did you pitch in the playoffs? That’s a different atmosphere.” Yea, I think we played Rockford, in fact, White Taylor owned the team and White Taylor also owned the only factory in the United States that made wooden propellers, it was 8 �Flowtorp Corporation and he flew me and whoever would have been a relief pitcher across the lake from Grand Rapids to Rockford because we had a game that went overtime and I was due to pitch the next night and I think it was like eighteen hours on the bus from Grand rapids around the lake to Rockford, so we got a plane ride across. 30:09 Interviewer: “One of the few times that players were delivered by air in the league. I know the Flowtorp propeller company because I’m from Grand Rapids.” Are they still in business? Interviewer: “No, but they were through the period you’re talking about. They made those wooden propellers, you’re absolutely right. Did you have any interactions with the owners of the Grand Rapids Chicks?” 30:37 No, not really. Interviewer: “How about the community? Did they expect you to go out in the community and do any kind of appearances?” The people were great. A lot of people would invite us over for dinner and when we had a rainout or something, I think it was the Phillips family, they owned a jewelry store in Grand Rapids, they had a cabin on the lake and the cabin was always available for us to go. We would go out there fishing and have cookouts on the sand. They were really good to us. The fans were always good to us. 31:19 Interviewer: “You had some pretty good crowds in Grand Rapids too. You would have played at South Field, but also out of Bigelow.” Well, Bigelow is the one that burned down. I’ve still got a picture of me and Janie Crick climbing through the ashes looking for our uniforms and our gloves. Our stuff all burned up and we never got a penny out of it. We had to buy our own spikes and our own gloves. Interviewer: “You had to get reoutfitted in a big hurry.” I don’t know - they got uniforms from somewhere. Interviewer: “Somebody told me, I think, that the uniforms they got had longer skirts on them than you guys were use to, so they were difficult to play in until you could get them tailored a little bit. That was in 1953 or something?” 32:09 No, that was—I think it was 1951. Interviewer: “Yes, it was earlier—I was thinking it was later, but you’re right and the story is that Bigalow was a good size field and the grandstand basically is what burned.” Yes, actually your clubhouse is under the grandstand, so it all burned up. 9 �Interviewer: “Uniforms and everything and you had to replace your own equipment?” Yes. Interviewer: “That’s not right.” No. Interviewer: “How about rivals? Did Grand Rapids have any particular rivalries with any other teams?” Well, I always thought that South Bend was more or less our rival because it seemed to me that they played the toughest, but it was hard to tell because a lot of the girls had been in since 1943 and when you’re talking 1951, that’s a long time. These girls had played together, got traded, transferred, so there was a lot of friendship going on between them. 33:25 Interviewer: “They knew each other.” Yeah, and you couldn’t really sense the rivalry in their actions before and after the games. It was just during the games—everybody was business. Interviewer: “You’re a pitcher—I got to ask a couple of questions because during that time you were playing, pitchers had a reputation for sometimes doing a little extra to make the ball twist and bend the way they wanted it to. Do you have any knowledge of people working it?” Well, you couldn’t help that, that was just nature. 34:00 You had to be careful because if your fingers are wet that ball could slip too, so you had to know what you were doing. Interviewer: “I forget who it was now, but someone once suggested to me that there was one team that may have put the balls in the ice box before the game, so when you hit them—“ That’s knowledge to me. Interviewer: “There were suspicions?” Yeah. Interviewer: “You didn’t do that?” Nope. Interviewer: “What pitches did you throw?” 34:33 My best one was my fastball because I threw straight overhand. If you throw a fastball overhand and you hold the seams, when it comes off it’s going to hop. You talk about curve balls—if you throw a fast pitch directly overhand and you pull down, that ball comes in like this. 10 �Interviewer: “It gives you the impression of actually rising, it’s not, and it’s holding its level better.” You see it coming and it’s going like that. That was my best and I threw a heavy ball, I threw a heavy ball. Interviewer: “Ground balls.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Curve Ball?” So-so, but I had a good changeup, a good changeup, but like I say, I relied on my overhand fast pitch, it really did the job. Interviewer: “Some people still argue that it’s the hardest pitch to hit in baseball, a good fastball,” 35:27 I think so, because a lot of those girls, they started out pitching fast pitch underhand and then went to sidearm, then went three quarter, and we came along and we had been playing overhand, so we had the advantage of the experience of that pitch and they weren’t used to that. Interviewer: “It makes a difference.” Sure. Interviewer: “Who among the hitters you face do you remember?” The toughest? I would say the Weavers. Interviewer: “They were models for some of the players in the movie, right?” Yeah. Interviewer: “The sisters.” 36:20 Well Jeanie Fout, for a pitcher, she was tough when she was up to bat. I really can’t think of their names right now. I’m seventy- eight and we’re getting a little short minded besides short winded. Interviewer: “You’re confronting what I heard from some of the others about these tough hitters. Faut, people do recognize her as pretty much all around, she could pitch and hit. How about on the “Chicks”, your own team mates?” On the “Chicks”, Connie Wisniewski and Doris Satterfield—they were tough. Connie had pitched for many years, but then when they went directly overhand, she didn’t want to hack it and Sadie was just a natural hitter. Sometimes I would pitch batting practice and boy you could be throwing them up there three quarter speed, you know for batting practice you’re supposed to, and they were whacking them and sometimes I would get mad and really line on in there and they would whack it. 37:47 11 �Interviewer: “The good ones can.” Those girls were really good. Interviewer: “Once again I’ve heard others say the same thing. For three years you played and then you didn’t want to take a pay cut and you moved on as they say. Did you continue playing ball though?” Oh yes, softball in the Park District in Chicago. I played with a team that was sponsored by Tava and we won the championship three years in a row and they asked us to move to a different park. They wanted some fair competition. 38:28 Interviewer: “As an overhand pitcher, you had to move to a different position or were you an Umpire?” I went back to shortstop for softball. My first husband died in 1970 and I got remarried in 1972 and in, I think, 1974, it was Sunday afternoon and my husband was there, I have three daughters, and I hit a long ball trying to stretch it into a home run, but I had to stop at third base and in the next game I made the third out and as I walked over, my oldest daughter said to me, “Ma, you better sit down, you’re red in the face, you look like your going to have a heart attack”, so my husband just looked at me and shook his head. It was about a hundred degrees, it was the middle of July, so after the game I thought, “I better hang ‘em up” 39:29 Interviewer: “Here’s your sign. Were your daughters ball players too?” Well, they tried. I coached the church team and they tried, but I thought I was going to have a nervous breakdown, so we didn’t play the second year. The two youngest ones are great swimmers and the youngest got into field hockey in college and liked it. Interviewer: “They’re athletes, just not ball players.” They all wound up being swimmers, which I was never a swimmer, but I did take lessons. 40:15 Interviewer: “That’s good, that’s good, so you retired from baseball and finally from softball. Did you continue working at the bank during that time?” I left the bank in 1962 and I went to work for the Chicago police department as a fingerprint technician. I was working at first National Bank in downtown Chicago and there was an ad in the paper for people to apply for a position with the Chicago police department, so I went to the address and as long as I was a Chicagoan and I worked thirteen years in a group—I didn’t realize that was city hall’s address and I picked up an application for the job, filled it out and later I got a postcard to report to a high school where they were running tests. Ten thousand people took the exams at four different high schools in Chicago, so I took the exam on a Saturday morning and a month later I got a card saying that I had passed the test and that I was chosen to be one of twenty-five people that would go to the police academy to be trained. 41:44 I went to the police 12 �academy, we had to go to the board of health for a physical exam and they had a policeman, two policemen train us in how to read and classify fingerprints and after six weeks at the academy we went to the first district headquarters where the records were and we started classifying and searching fingerprints and I worked there twenty eight years until I retired. 42:15 Interviewer: “Did you crack any big cases?” I wound up as supervisor and I worked nights from eleven thirty at night until seven thirty in the morning because that worked out the best with my children and I didn’t have to worry about a housekeeper because I was home all day. I slept from six until ten at night and to this day I can get along on four hours sleep. Interviewer: “It’s what you get use to I guess.” Yes, I identified a lot of fingerprints on big cases, but nothing spectacular, but my boss was a great guy. I was lucky—in baseball and in my jobs, I had great bosses. At the bank I had a boss that loved sports and at the police department I had a great Lieutenant who became a Captain and then became a commander of a district and he was a fingerprint expert. I don’t know if you ever remember reading in the paper where a fella killed a bunch of nurses—Wayne Gacy—no, Richard Speck—well, my Lieutenant went out to the scene and he lifted a fingerprint form the outside window where Speck had tried to get in—came downtown to our files and manually searched the files and he had found Richard Speck’s fingerprint card. 43:48 At the same time someone called from the Cook county Hospital where Richard Speck had gone for treatment because he got hurt. I don’t know if it was an intern or a doctor that recognized him back from the all wanted and called the police. At the same time my Lieutenant was going to his office to notify them 44:17 Interviewer: “They matched them up and they had him. I do remember that case.” He was the greatest—when I first got on the job, I was still married to my first husband and I had marital problems and I had to get off of nights and work days, so he was a Lieutenant at the time and when I asked him he said, “well, I can’t do that”. We worked civil service and you couldn’t play favorites, so I said, “well, I’ll have to resign”, so he explained to be and he said, “well, if you resign get your name reinstated on the civil service list and when there’s an opening we give a call and you can turn it down twice. The third time, your name comes off the list”, so I got called twice and the third time he called me I had already separated from my first husband and I made arrangements for someone to take care of the kids. They came over and slept nights and I said, “If I can come back nights, I’ll come back”, and he said, “Well, I can guarantee you six months”. Well, six months came and went and I stayed for another twenty-four years. 45: 40 I got remarried, Commander Degee retired and I went to his retirement party with my new husband and after all the speeches he came over to our table and he said to me, “are your six months up yet?” 13 �Interviewer: “He remembered.” Yea, I introduced him to my husband and he sat down and talked to us for about a half hour and it was great. Interviewer: “That’s great. It’s nice to be in those situations where you have that good relationship.” 46:14 I can’t understand how people can gripe about their jobs. Interviewer: “You had good ones and that’s a good thing. I want to ask you a few things about after your playing days. Did people know you played in the league?” When I coached the girls at church, I use to say, “when I played ball”, and it was no big deal—you know how kids are. Two of my brothers were real proud of me. The companies they worked for had magazines that came out monthly and they were always putting in stories about their kid sister and the neighborhood—I had the newspapers from Grand Rapids sent home and as soon as my mother got them she went to the butcher shop and showed them to the guy at the butcher shop and she showed them to the guy over at the Kroger store, so when I would come home in the fall and go shopping for her they would say, “tell us about this game. Your mother showed us the paper”, but outside of that, not too much. A few times when I would be going out on a date with somebody from the bank one of the guys would say, “hey, watch out for her, she throws a mean fastball “, and they would look like, “what’s he talking about?” 47:31 I didn’t want to get into it , so I just let it go. It wasn’t until we got accepted at the Hall of Fame that more people found out about it, neighborhood papers ran stories and then after the movie came out, I had moved from Chicago down to Hot Spring Village Arkansas, so the movie came out and all of a sudden it’s playing on television and people from my church would call me up all hours whenever that movie was on. “Your movie is on”, they would say and hang up. 48:18 Interviewer: “It’s nice to be recognized though and remembered.” A couple of months ago, in July in fact, there’s a fella that lives in the village, he played in the negro league, so one of the reporters for the village paper interviewed him and he said to Bill, “how does it feel to be an ex major leaguer?” Bill talked to him and he said, “you know you got a woman here that played in the girls league”, so this fella called me up and he said, “Bill McCreary told me all about you and I would like to interview you”, and I said, “Jeff, they’ve had my story in the paper three times in the past. I’ve been here nineteen years and people are tired of reading it.” 49:04 He said, “I’ve been here seven years and I never saw your story. I want to do it”, so he did a nice interview and gave me a DVD and a VHS tape, the whole shot. My State Farm insurance agent cut the articles out and put them in a folder and laminated them. On the front it says, WE SAW YOU WERE IN THE NEWS—real nice. I go to the store and people say, “You’re the ball player”. It works to the good. We have a community near us where three hundred people got laid off. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the Weyerhaeuser Corporation, the timber company. 14 �Interviewer: “I certainly am.” 49:47 They laid off three hundred people. They closed down their operation in Mount Pine, so I wanted to do something to help and I was talking to Jane Moffet, one of our ball players, and Jane said, “why don’t you ask the girls to send you gift cards to Wal Mart?” So she spread the word and the girls helped out. I have one daughter that was working selling radio advertising, she called me up and said, “Ma, I got a two hundred and fifty dollar bonus check”, and I said, “good, send it to me, I need it for Mount Pine”. She sent it to me—I raised three thousand dollars, gave out gift certificates and the people that didn’t show to pick them up—we went to Wal Mart and bought food and a fella from the food pantry came with his trailer and picked it all up, so people in the village read the article that I was doing this and they helped by sending me gift cards in the mail. “Here’s another gift card for you from Wal Mart”. 50:49 I’ve heard that people go to Wal Mart for everything. They can get gas, they can get food, and they can get medicine, so we gave out Wal Mart gift cards. It worked out real good. Interviewer: “It didn’t hurt at all that you had some recognition to lend to it.” This time I bought ten baseballs and I had as many girls as I could find sign them and I’ll auction them off when I get back and raise money for the food pantry when I get home. It works out and it helps to have a little publicity once in a while. 51:20 Interviewer: “It does if you use it properly. That’s the key to the whole thing too. Do you enjoy getting recognized?” I use to be kind of--, but now it’s old shoe. Maybe it’s because I’m old. Interviewer: “do you get cards or letters from young girls once and a while?” Yeah, I got a box full. I’ve been saving them since I moved to the village. I had a bunch in Chicago, but you know when you move you get rid of a lot of stuff. 51:51 Since I’m living down there, and that’s nineteen years now, I started saving them and on the envelope I write that I replied and the date. I got a request from Germany for a picture, baseball card and what not, so I had to go to the post office for something and I said to fella, “how much does it cost to send something to Germany?” He said, “What are you mailing?” I said, “maybe something like a birthday card and some pictures”, and he said, “three dollars and something”, and I said “ok”. If they don’t send me a stamped envelope, I don’t send it back because that could get kind of costly. 52:39 I got cards from people saying, “will you please sign these two blank cards”. I don’t sign anything blank. I sign a baseball card, one card, and send it back to them. A lot of them buy our cards and send them to us. They send us three cards, they bought them, fine, and I’ll sign them and send them back. They have a son or a daughter and that’s fine. 53:05 Interviewer: “Those that want the blank cards, they’re buying and selling autographs.” We were advised not to sign anything blank. Interviewer: “I’ve heard that from people in sports and all over, don’t sign the blank ones.” 15 �We get requests from different outfits. There’s some catholic school, I think it’s up in Maine or Connecticut and they had a friend who knew a girl ball player and she donated a couple of pictures and they auction them off to raise money, so he got a hold of our addresses, I don’t know how and asked of we had any memorabilia we could donate for auction. Every once and a while we get something like that and I check it out and call them up. 53:57 If they don’t leave their number, I call up the chamber of commerce in their city and check them out, but usually they’re on the up and up. Interviewer: ‘When you look back, what do you see, the league you played in and all of that, do you see it as part of the changing perspective that our country has about the role of women in society? In other words, were you a pioneer?” Yeah, looking back we were pioneers, because it was an awful long time after our league folded before any women got any recognition in sports, so in our own way we were pioneers, but like they will all tell you, we would have done it for nothing. We got paid for doing something we loved. 55:00 That’s why we have a hard time assimilating with sports figures today, but it’s just the way things are. They won’t let women play in the major leagues, but I for one can understand it. I don’t think women should try to compete against men. You might have a woman that’s five ft. seven and a hundred and seventy pounds, muscular and all that and you have a guy that’s five ft. six and one hundred and fifty pounds playing short stop, but there’s a different mentality, there’s a different physical structure completely and I was always against teams touring and playing against men’s teams. It’s not right. 55:53 If they could have a league, like they’re starting all these baseball leagues now, women play against women—that’s beautiful. That’s the way it should be and there’s a place for women in sports and it is not competing with men. If you’re going to compete with men in baseball then let’s— you know when a woman has a baby and the guys say, “there’s nothing to it” and we say, “Well, why don’t you try carrying one?” “Be reasonable, he’s built different than you honey”. Don’t try to compete with them on that and don’t even try to make a comparison. I feel the same way about sports, there are sports for women, women golfers, women tennis players, women swimmers, basketball, fine, but play against women. 56:43 Show your competition the way it should be shown. Interviewer: “It seems to make a lot of sense. To me it does. Interviewer: Any of you guys think of something else? I would like to know more about the Grand Rapids championship season. They actually did win the championship in 1953. Was that season any different than any other or did you just get lucky?” 57:12 I think we just played harder. If I remember right, we had a lot of injuries in 1953. I don’t know if Corky Olinger was back, I know that she had broken her ankle—we had a lot of injuries in 1953, but everybody was clicking as a team, plus woody was a great manager. 16 �Interviewer: “How did you do when he flew you out to Rockford?” Good. Interviewer: “You were ready to pitch the next day.” Yeah. I got a lot of ribbing about it, teacher pet and all that good stuff. Interviewer: “If you win the game, that’s what matters.” Interviewer: “Thank you very much.” 17 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_MCaden Title A name given to the resource Caden , Mary Lou (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Caden, Mary Lou Description An account of the resource Mary Lou Caden (née Studnicka) was born in Oak Lawn, Illinois, a suburb of Chicago. She grew up in the Oak Lawn area and started playing softball with the neighborhood kids and transitioned to playing for local teams. She played as a short-stop in her amateur career and eventually was contacted by Mitch Skupien in 1950 to play for the Grand Rapids Chicks. She played for the Grand Rapids Chicks from 1951 to 1953 when she was traded to Fort Wayne and due to a pay cut decided to quit baseball and return to her job for National City Bank. During her time with them she played positions such as pitcher and second base. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Olson, Gordon (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Indiana Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-09-25 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5752a0125b812e8ce999b065608493ea.m4v f158fd332a1df13fd393b25e25800d9a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d8abc97da500f74b820aa52075355b3a.pdf 12163b5a7930c412c229649813d6257b PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans History Project Interviewee’s Name: Jean Cione Interviewed by: Gordon Olson September 27, 2009 Milwaukee, WI at the annual alumni reunion of the All American Girls Professional Baseball League Transcribed by: Joan Raymer March 4, 2010 Interviewer: Give me a little bit of background if you will. When and where were you born, your parents names and a little of that sort of information.” I was born in Rockford, Illinois in 1928 and my parents were Vi and John and I went to school at a county school for eight grades in Rockford, Illinois. :53 Interviewer: Were all eight grades together at county?” Yes, oh no, no. Interviewer: “Then it wasn’t a small country school?” It wasn’t that small. And I was, as everybody was in those days, an outdoor “tomboy”. Interviewer: “Which means that you started playing ball as a little kid?” I started playing ball as a little kid. I played catch with the guy next door who turned out to be a neurourgeon and my mother thought that that thing that was hanging from my right hand was part of my anatomy because that’s how often it was there. 1:39 Interviewer: “That was your glove?” That was my glove. Interviewer: “And it went everywhere with you?” It did Interviewer: “You’re a natural left hander and they didn’t try to change you? A lot of people our age, young people if they were left handed, and they would try to make them switch to right handed writing and that sort of thing.” Well, I’m kind of ambidextrous. I batted right, I threw left, I write right, I iron both ways, whatever’s handy really. 2:13 Interviewer: “If you’re going to throw, it’s better to throw left handed because there’s more demand for left handed pitchers.” There are fewer of us; I guess that’s probably why. Interviewer: “what are your recollections, before there was a league, of playing ball? Where did you play and how did you develop as a ball player?” 1 �Well, I played neighborhood ball with the boys. When I was in the eighth grade I played first base on the boys softball team and since it was a county school we competed with other county schools and I earned a letter at that county school. I of course went to junior high school in the city and there was no opportunity for women back then and so I played in an industrial team league and on industrial league teams. Now, Rockford, Illinois was the largest machine tool center in the world and the town was full of factories of all kinds. 3:33 They made huge machines and sent them overseas and so forth. Well, each of those industrial corporations had a men’s baseball team and a women’s softball team. This was a large city. The second largest city in Illinois at that time and so I played then in the industrial teams. 4:03 Interviewer: “So there were sports opportunities for women in Rockford?” There were, definitely. Rockford had a wonderfully developed park system, the University of Illinois at Champaign Urbana came up and set it up and Rockford was half Swede and half Canadian with a few Polish and Irish thrown in there, but they put their money in their city, so there were really opportunities for children. 4:34 Interviewer: “You said that you got a letter for playing on the eighth grade team at the county school. How unusual was it for girls to be on the school team like that?” Well, at the luncheon today, they talked about the first and I was the first. Interviewer: “That makes it unusual. In high school were there any sports you could play in high school?” They called it GAA, girls athletic association and we played among ourselves and if we did have opportunities to play with girls from other schools, with mitts. 5:24 Interviewer: “That’s right, there was a sense that girls shouldn’t be—not only that girls weren’t so competitive, but they shouldn’t be so competitive.” Absolutely, and in those days girls were short and supposed to be short as opposed to now, they step out and they are tall. 5:50 Interviewer: “They’ve been feeding them real well lately. You were playing in the industrial league when you learned about the opportunity to play women’s baseball?” Well, I was born and went to public school in Rockford, Illinois and the “Rockford Peaches” came into Rockford, Illinois and established Rockford as their home team in 1943 and I was fifteen at the time. 6:19 Interviewer: “Still in high school?” Yes, still in high school and my dad of course, who was my very best friend, took me to the ball games and I would say, “Dad, I’m going to play some day”. 2 �Interviewer: “Had he supported you as a ball player? Did you learn any baseball from him?” No. Interviewer: “He was just a fan?” Yes, he was just a fan. I didn’t learn it from him, but yes, he supported me and my mother supported me too because it was two against one, my dad and I. Interviewer: “She might as well go along with it.” Yes, she might as well go along with it. Interviewer: “Are there other brothers and sisters in your family?” I do have a sister, but she’s fourteen years younger. After they had me they had to wait a long time before having another one. 7:14 Interviewer: “Even if she had been a ball player there wouldn’t have been an opportunity like you had for her would there?” No there wasn’t, and we were very, very fortunate. We were just lucky. Interviewer: “So, the Rockford Peaches come to town and you see some games and you decide, “I’m going to do that”. How did you go about accomplishing that?” 7:37 Well, they held a tryout a couple of years later and I was seventeen at that time and Max Carey came into town and he held a tryout and I was invited to spring training. I could throw, I could hit, I could run. The finer points of the game probably weren’t very evident, but he saw something there that might be developed. Interviewer: “At that point did you have a sense of yourself as a pitcher at all yet?” No. Interviewer: “That’s coming yet. When you first learned of it—Max Carey comes to town—did you have an understanding of why they were doing it? You knew there was a war going on, but did you connect the women of the baseball with the war or anything like that?” 8:36 No. Interviewer: “That’s going to come, along with other things. So the tryout is complete and he likes what he sees, then what happens?” I went to spring training, it was held in Chicago, we stayed at the Allerton Hotel and worked out in one of the big Chicago parks and I made the cut. Probably I made the cut and went with the Rockford team because I was a Rockford girl and there’s some draw in terms of people coming to the ball game to see me. I was very, very fortunate to play under the manager who I consider the best manager who ever managed in the league, Bill Allington from Van Nuys, California and he loved the game you could tell and he was a 3 �good manager. 9:43 All of us bench sitters and rookies had the opportunity to work out every day we were home. The regulars didn’t because we played every day on a ten game schedule. From him I learned how to fly, the finer points of the strategy of the game. He sat us next to him on the bench and made sure we understood the game, all the cutoff plays, all the finer points of the game so, I was able to survive. 10:28 Interviewer: “You had time to do hitting every day?” Yes. Interviewer: “At what point does pitching become part of baseball?” Well, the league was managed more as a league opposed to individual teams and they realized that they had to keep competition close in order to make it interesting for the public so, they had what they called an allocation system and each team could protect x number of players and the rest of us were put into a pool and I went to Peoria and was their regular first baseman for a year. They didn’t protect me; they threw me into the pool “Pop Murphy” from Racine picked me up. 11:43 We had spring training in Havana Cuba that year and he picked me up and we toured up through Florida along the Atlantic coast with those particular teams all the way up and he worked with me because he thought maybe I could pitch—he saw something. Interviewer: “He saw a fastball I bet.” I don’t know what he saw, but I appreciated him very much. Those were exhibition game with two teams would travel up together. Interviewer: “Do you remember what the other team was?” No I don’t. I remember going into my first exhibition ball game and striking out Jo Leonard, who became a very good friend of mine and who I played with much later on, but I pitched, he threw me in the games, all the way up to Racine and the season started. 12:56 Rockford had some injuries as they came up through their particular area where they toured and Bill—Racine had won the championship the year before and Bill Allington asked the league if he could get some help until his pitching crew got back into physical shape and could play again, so Murphy thought that was a good idea and they could make mistakes on Bill’s team, so I went to Rockford and I didn’t make too many mistakes and Murphy wanted me back and I guess there was quite a discussion over a period of time and in order to keep both managers happy they gave me to Kenosha. 13:52 I was with Kenosha for the rest of my career. Interviewer: “You stayed in the same general vicinity, but you didn’t get to go home again.” No. Interviewer: “I’ve got a couple questions I want to ask you and it suddenly occurred to me, I haven’t asked this of other. The make-up of the team that you 4 �play on—you said he needed pitching, how many, do you remember how many were on the team? There were some bench sitters.” Yes there were. They carried at least four or five pitchers and nine and five is fourteen and I think the rosters were seventeen or eighteen players. 14:36 Interviewer: “That’s not many players, particularly if you’re playing every day and somebody is going to be a little “gimpy” once in a while. That’s not a “deep bench” as they say.” That’s probably why Bill took the rookies and those that sat on the bench and worked with them because we had to go in at times. Interviewer: “You had to be ready or about as ready as he could get you. The other thing I wanted to back up to—you said you went to Cuba and came back; do you have recollection of that time in Cuba and spring training in Cuba?” 15:13 I certainly do. Interviewer: “Share them with me please.” There was music twenty-four hours a day in Cuba and it was just wonderful. Music is something that’s very important to me and I loved it. We were taken to eat at one of the hotels all the time and the food was terrible, so most of us ate at “Sloppy Joe’s”, the bar between our hotel and the hotel where they fed us. Interviewer: “We shouldn’t assume you were in Havana, rather than assuming, the people listening later will know that the spring training took place in Havana. All the teams were there?” 15:59 All the teams were there, yes they were. We trained at the University of Havana’s facilities, huge facilities. Interviewer: “The Cubans love their baseball.” Yes they do and they came out in great numbers for the exhibition games and they were around to watch us train also. Interviewer: “Did they seem to appreciate the level of the baseball that you played?” Yes they did, we heard nothing negative and so you assumed that they accepted you. Interviewer: “I have also been told that the Cuban men were particularly impressed by the fact that these were young women out there playing. Is there any truth to that?” 16:44 Yes they were. Of course the Cuban men are very sexy, very sexy, you would have to just really be careful. 5 �Interviewer: “I’ve seen a couple of great pictures of a group watching practice. A group of young men up in the stands watching practice and waiting, I think, for the first moment that practice was over, so they could get better acquainted.” They were and after practice we generally showered—we went back to the hotel and showered and changed clothes and we hired a taxi and he would come and pick us up and take us all over Havana and make sure if we got thirsty we would have a “cervesa” (for the non Spanish speakers, “a beer”) and we saw a tremendous amount of the poor and the rich in Cuba. 17:56 Interviewer: “This is out of context with the story of your baseball career, but it’s an interesting topic. Your horizons were significantly broadened by the travel opportunities that came with being a baseball player.” Absolutely. Interviewer: “Not only just in terms of seeing places, but seeing other people and other culture and maybe parts of –the poor as well as those better off and just a better understanding of humanity in a sense.” That’s right and appreciated it. Interviewer: “It carried over later in your life?” It did, I think it did. Interviewer: “We may get back to that later and think about that a little bit more, so this is 1947 and you could throw hard, but the world is full of people who can throw hard, but they can’t hit what they’re throwing at.” 19:02 I have a funny story to tell you about that. Inez Voyce, she was a left-handed first baseman. Interviewer: “For the Grand Rapids “Chicks” among others.” And South Bend, the South Bend “Blue Sox” and somehow or other she trained, she was trained with us at our particular area of the ball park and Bill Allington came over to us, the two of us, and he said, “you two, I want you to go out there in left field and play catch until you can throw the ball where you’re aiming, you just get out there and work on it”, and I never ever forgot that. Inez and I share that story together. 20:00 Interviewer: “And it worked.” It worked, yes. Interviewer: “Before we move on from Bill Allington, if someone were to say to you, “I want a short capsule description of him and his personality, behavior--why was he so good?” 6 �I can only give you from my perspective. He was so good number one, because he really cared for the game. He instituted many plays that often other teams didn’t use, for instance, just hitting the ball on the ground and the runner on first base going from first to third, you know, those kinds of things. That’s what made him good and he cared and I just really liked him. 21:10 Interviewer: “Big man, small man?” Very wiry and medium height. Interviewer: “Loud, quiet, soft spoken?” It depended on whom he was talking to and what he was saying. I can’t say he was loud or gregarious, he wasn’t, he tended to business and I liked that because that’s the way I was brought up. Probably brought up too much that way, really focused on what I was doing and he was really focused on what he was doing and he expected you to function that way and that’s why I think he was good. 21:59 Interviewer: “Now, do you have a recollection of the first league game you pitched in? You were pitching in these exhibition games up north.” That’s very interesting--you know I don’t, I do not, I don’t remember the first league game I pitched in. Interviewer: “Are there other games that stand out over time? Some play off games?” My no hit no run games stand out in my mind. Interviewer: “Gee, I wonder why that is?” A twelve inning duel with Ziggy, Alma Zeigler from Grand Rapids. I don’t know why they stand out that way. Interviewer: “Let’s talk about those no hitters. You had two no hitters in a very short period of time.” That must have been a good year. 22:50 Interviewer: “Yes, I guess, so there’s a superstition in baseball that you don’t talk to the pitcher until they give up a hit. If they get deep into a game you leave them alone and no one mentions the fact that there are no hits. Did the women follow that same kind of superstition?” I think so because I don’t remember discussing it or anybody saying anything about it. Interviewer: “Did you have a notion what you were doing?” 23:15 Yes. 7 �Interviewer: “Any moments in that game that stand out where they came close to getting a hit?” No moments stand out, sorry. Interviewer: “Ok, that’s ok, sometimes you’re so lost in the next batter you’re not thinking about anything else. There was two of them up, roughly that and you have to feel pretty good about yourself at that point, you’ve got this pitching thing figured out. I think it was. Well, I’ll tell you something, if you didn’t feel good about yourself, you didn’t last in that league. Interviewer: “Do you want to expand on that a little bit?” 23:57 Well, you had to have confidence, you had to think that every time you walked out on that mound, you walked out on that mound for one purpose and it was to win that ball game, and if you didn’t have that confidence—athletes cannot perform unless they have that confidence and some people call it cockiness and whatever it is, if somebody asks you, “are you good”, you say, “you betch ya”. Interviewer: “I can strike you out. Describe yourself as a pitcher would you? What did you throw? What were your strengths and if there was a weakness, what was it?” 24:46 I was primarily a power pitcher. I developed a cross fire where I stepped to first base and brought it in right under your ribs. I was not afraid to work the inside of the plate. I had a changeup and later in years, I developed a two fingered knuckle curve and obviously that’s a ball that’s thrown with a spin on it and when it loses enough momentum, it falls off and I was left handed and that was good for pitching against some of the very, very good left handed hitters. 25:41 Interviewer: “A cross fire’s a pretty effective pitch against some of them too.” We had –I do remember this—In one of the games I pitched in Kenosha, an Umpire, his name was Remo, his last name, was behind the plate and he caught every one of those cross fires and called them strikes and sometimes that’s hard for an Umpire because it catches the front of the plate and by the time it reaches the back of the plate it’s in the sand and that probably was very important to my further development as a pitcher. 26:26 Interviewer: “It gave you confidence to keep throwing. It’s a pitch—you say it starts out from the first base side and if it’s a left handed hitter their tendency is to lean back or away from it and a right handed hitter, their tendency is to think it’s coming inside at them and you’re right, if you throw it right it comes right across the front left hand corner of the plate and it’s still a strike, but the catcher is reaching beyond the strike zone to pick it up and they will miss it.” 26:47 8 �They will because it’s very easy to miss. I had some Umpires that did miss them and I didn’t like it. Interviewer: “Did you ever get in an argument with an Umpire?” Oh sure. Interviewer: “Ever get thrown out?” No, not that big of an argument. 27:16 Interviewer: “What was the quality of the umpiring in your mind? Your standing up—pitchers have a particular perspective on umpiring, that’s for sure, how would you assess the umpiring in the games you played in the league as you saw it?” I think it was very good. I think it was very high quality. They’re going to miss some stuff, but we didn’t let them know that we thought that they were going to miss some stuff, they were going to, but I think the quality of the umpiring was excellent. 27:54 Interviewer: “Which is probably not a bad idea—attitude for a pitcher to have going out there. Think of the Umpire as your friend and if they sensed that at all, they just might become your friend. As a hitter I always felt that way. Any teams that you felt a special rivalry with at all?” Well of course I always felt the rivalry of Rockford. I welcomed going into Rockford and beating them and they were very, very good, very good. I played with Rockford my last year in the league and many of them became very close friends, but that was the team that I welcomed pitching and playing against. 28:53 Interviewer: “It makes sense, if you can’t play with them then the best thing you can do is to go in and beat them.” That’s right, that’s right. Interviewer: “Talk to me, if you will, a little bit about travel. How you go t around, the teams were fairly close together, but you still had to get from one town to another on short notice sometimes.” In 1945, when I played with Rockford, we traveled by train, the Illinois Central out of Rockford into Chicago and then changed trains to other locations; New York Central up into Michigan and that was wonderful. Travel by train was just super. Well, the league figured out that if they had their own buses it would be cheaper and more efficient. If we had a trip from Kenosha, Wisconsin to Grand Rapids, that’s a long trip and we would leave after the ball game and stop somewhere and have dinner before we left Kenosha and then you traveled all night. 30:12 It was much more efficient for the league to go by bus travel. Big buses and they were comfortable. Interviewer: “No sleeping berths though on a bus.” No sleeping berths. 9 �Interviewer: “You had to figure out your own way to get comfortable.” You just had to kick back and do what you could. Interviewer: “Now, when you got into—as a visitor coming into a town, you’re in that town for three or four games, something like that, did you stay in hotels, did you stay in homes?” 30:52 We stayed in hotels and we stayed in the best hotel in that town, yes we did. Interviewer: “At that point the league took care of you in that regard.” They absolutely did. We stayed in the VanOrmin in Fort Wayne and the Pere Marquette in Peoria, good hotels. Interviewer: “They probably put you in the Pantlind in Grand Rapids or I would have to think about where else in Grand Rapids you might have stayed at, there were a couple big hotels. I know it was right downtown. 31:26 Interviewer: “Probably the Pantlind. Did the teams you played on get to the playoffs?” Once, and it was against Rockford and it was two out of three I believe. Interviewer: “And this was Racine against Rockford?” Kenosha, Kenosha against Rockford and they beat us and we were done. Interviewer: “Did you get to pitch in the playoffs?” I played first base in that playoff, you know I could hit a little bit and I often played first base or one of the outfield positions. I took my turn every third or fourth day. 32:20 Interviewer: “Yeah, with the short roster you had, a lot of them played as position players as well. Ziggy for example, was both a pitcher and a—second baseman, right and you and a lot of others the same way, if you could hit a little bit.” You had to be able to hit. Interviewer: “What was the quality of the hitting in the league? Was it more of a pitcher’s league or a hitter’s league?” I think it’s very, very similar to major league baseball now, I really do. It’s not like softball, which is a pitcher’s game; it was probably pretty well balanced. Interviewer: ”You saw some scoring.” 33:16 Right, we saw some scoring and our batting champions were hitting up into the mid three hundreds, so it was probably a pretty balanced game. 10 �Interviewer: “You played through some rules and equipment changes. The base length changed didn’t it at some point? The ball changed in size, did you like the changes as they occurred?” Yes, I did. Interviewer: “Let’s talk a little more, you tell me what kinds of changes occurred.” 33:58 Of course the pitching distance changed. The change when we went away from strictly softball pitching and it went to pitching where the hand had to be below the wrist, then it had to be below the elbow and then it had to be below the shoulder and right over the top. As that pitching changed and structure changed, the ball got smaller and smaller and of course as pitchers, we liked that. The bases got longer, the game got more like baseball and less like softball. 35:00 Much more in the way of double plays, relays from the outfield to nail them at home and that kind of thing. As the ball got smaller, the game got faster; I guess that’s what happened. Interviewer: “The skill level adjusted?” Yes, it did. Interviewer: “And there was some training and teaching going on? Bill Allington wasn’t the only one, or Allington I should say, wasn’t the only one teaching?” There were many that didn’t. Interviewer: “True” 35:29 There were many that didn’t, yes. Interviewer: “ I think Woody English comes to mind, who a lot of the players liked, as someone who paid attention and took his job seriously is maybe the fair way to put it.” Yes he did. The game, I think, was more interesting for the spectators as the bases lengthened and as the ball got smaller. Interviewer: “You played then from your first year, which was 1945, until 1954, basically the end of the league. What are your perspectives on that period when it went into decline and at some point you could see it coming. What happened? Tell me about it.” 36:21 You could see it coming. Many of the teams board of directors did what they could to cut expenses, as tight as they could, we traveled in cars, which was very poor, that was in the last year, next to the last year. Interviewer: “Packed tightly in cars or a group of cars?” It was not a good thing. Not a good thing for the players and for the league in particular. You could see the decline, your salaries didn’t go down, your meal money didn’t go 11 �down, but you could see it particularly in the travel. The fields were still kept up and they were beautiful fields. 37:19 Interviewer: “The fields were the responsibility of the local communities, at least in some cases the parks department had some role in maintaining the fields.” Well, any team I played on, we had a—I’m thinking golf, a greens keeper. Interviewer: “Groundskeeper?” Yes, a groundskeeper who took care of the field and we knew him. Interviewer: “He was with the team?” Yes, and the teams were tailored, just like the major league fields now, the fields were tailored to the team. For instance, Jean Fout, whom I consider to be the best overhand pitcher in the league, she came from tight from over the top and they built the mound up for her. 38:14 Interviewer: “So she was even taller out there. Of course, if you were an overhand pitcher and pitching there, you at least had that same mound to pitch from.” Oh yes you did, that’s true. Interviewer: “Did some of the teams water down the area in front of home plate a little bit?” Yes Interviewer: “Let the grass grow a little longer in the infield?” Yes they did. Interviewer: “That’s been going on for a long time hasn’t it?” Yes it has and we took advantage of that. The grounds keeper would work with the manager and the fields were tailored to the home teams strengths and weaknesses. 38:52 Interviewer: “I said earlier that one of the people I talked to about pitching suggested that there were things done to the baseball. What she talked about was an accusation of one team put the balls in the refrigerator before that game just to make them a little deader. Did you ever hear of such a thing?” No, (laughingly), never heard of it. Interviewer: “Did you ever hear of any pitchers that would doctor the ball a little bit?” No. 39:28 Interviewer: “Certainly men were accused of such things.” I know. A friend of mine, who is an athletic director at one of the universities in the west, said that in one of their publications there was an article by an Umpire and his name 12 �was Petrangeli, and he said that he threw me out of a game for throwing a spit ball and I said, “that’s ridiculous, he must not have had too much to say and he had to pull on something”, but he was a Kenosha Umpire and he umpired a lot of my games, but I was never thrown out. 40:16 Not even for arguing. Interviewer: “It’s a fine line sometimes to how far you can go and what you can say and what they’ll listen to and tolerate and what they won’t.” That’s right. There was not a whole lot of foul language in the girls league. Interviewer: “I hope not. There were some women who did get tossed, had pretty fiery tempers.” Oh yeah. Interviewer: “I can’t think of her name all of a sudden, she played for Grand Rapids and all I can think of her is the blonde from Arizona.” California and she’s gone now—it will come to me. 41:06 Interviewer: “It won’t come to me right now either.” She was from California and she’s gone now, she died of cancer. She was very good, but she was fiery and so was Faye Dancer, from California. Interviewer: “Not afraid of any Umpire.” Interviewer: “The league is coming to an end and travel is pretty miserable, pay didn’t go up—to what do you contribute that decline in revenue that they were grappling with? That means fewer fans, what was happening to cause that?” I think it was a combination of things. The war was over, the entertainment was available and the entertainment dollar was spread around. You could now go into Chicago and see the Sox or Cubs play and the pros that played were retiring and they were bringing in top-notch softball players and they couldn’t adapt fast enough to the game. And there were mental errors and people don’t pay to see that. It was really a combination of things. 42:35 Interviewer: “If it’s sloppy they don’t like it. Did television play any role?” It was barely started because I remember—I was going to undergraduate school in the off season and I remember grappling with either working on what I should be working on or watching the television, but I remember a little tiny screen. I don’t think television was a factor. 43:10 Interviewer: “Ultimately television played a role in the decline of the minor leagues in men’s professional baseball, but it was a little later. Unless you’ve got something more you’d like to say about your career that I haven’t thought to ask you about, I’d like to move over and talk about your post baseball career a little bit. What did you do after baseball?” 43:37 13 �Well, during the off-season I went to undergraduate school at Eastern Michigan University, Ypsilanti, Michigan, and seven miles from Ann Arbor, that big school. Interviewer: “How did you pick Eastern Michigan, you’re over here in Wisconsin?” Well, Eastern Michigan was ranked the third best women’s physical education school in the country and that was my field of study. I went to Eastern Michigan and got my Bachelors degree and began teaching in the off-season in the public schools. I taught ten years in the public schools. I taught in Trenton, Michigan for four years, that was my first job. I taught for four years in Rockford, Illinois schools, West Rockford, Illinois. Then I decided after eight years that I better get my Masters, so I went down to the University of Illinois on a graduate assistantship and got my Masters degree and came back and was a department head in a new school in Rockford and then I got a cal from my Alma Mater, Eastern Michigan University, to please join them on their staff and there is no greater thrill than being asked to join the staff of your undergraduate school. 45:33 Interviewer: “Those who taught you, and you stayed there.” I stayed there twenty-nine years. I started out teaching theory of team sports, individual sports, all of those and then I did some further work at the University of Michigan, which was only seven miles from me and I did some further work in Scientific Foundations of Physical Education and ended up teaching Scientific Foundations to sports medicine people. Anatomy, Physiology, Biology Etc. and that’s where I finished my career. 46:18 I loved every bit of it. I loved the public schools, the team sports and the major courses that I taught in the Scientific Foundations. I kept me from being bored. Interviewer: “Did someone particularly encourage you to go college? Was that your own decision?” It was my own decision, my mother, like all good mothers, wanted me to stay home and get married so she could have some grand kids and she said, “Well, if you want to go to school, you can go to Rockford to college”. There was no physical education curriculum offered there, but she didn’t understand that, so I had to go to school against their wishes. 47:09 When they found out that I was serious, then they accepted the fact that I was away from home going to school. Interviewer: “You had been away from home already.” That was different. Interviewer: “Did you continue in team sports as a player for a time or involved in team sports after pro baseball?” 14 �I played one year of slow pitch and it was on a lark. Some of the professors at my university and some of them at the University of Michigan decided we would get a team together and we would do some slow pitch and it was fun. Interviewer: “The strength of it is that it’s a team sport, the weakness is that it’s not like baseball or even softball, it’s a different game. Let me now move to the final portion of all this and I’d like you to reflect on it. It has to do in a sense, the rediscovery of the All American Girls Baseball League, because I suspect you too went through that period—your friends, you may have told them your baseball experiences, but few people knew you were a professional baseball player, I’m guessing. 48:44 Been there, done that and never talked about it. Who would have understood anyhow? Interviewer: “A few, but not a whole lot, you’re right. All of a sudden though come this movie and a national awareness that there was this unique group of women and that they played baseball professionally for several years and they’re still around. They discovered you at some point again and I bet you remember when that occurred?” 49:19 Well yes, the Ann Arbor paper wanted to run an article on you and the professors at the men’s club wanted you to come and talk to them about your baseball career etc., so the opportunities were many, yes. Interviewer: “Did the young women that were in your classes want to talk about it too and get to know you a little more because of that?” No, I can’t say they did. I can’t say that they did, I’m sure that they respected it. I can remember them coming to that one year when we played slow pitch, coming to the games and watching and it always tickled me that I was able to do something that I had taught them how to do in the team sports class like catch the runner off second base and run at him and freeze him and then make the throw and I liked that because it helped me to realize that they understood that I do know what I’m talking about. 50:49 Interviewer: “Darn tootin’ you did. Reflect a little on the role that you perhaps didn’t see yourself playing at all, but as a pioneer really in women in sports and in some ways even in the larger movement toward feminism and more roles for women in our society, you are part of that. Do you think about that, you must?” I didn’t think about it at the time. Didn’t think about it at all. I supported and still support the feminist movement. When Billie Jean King played Bobby Riggs, we all got together and watched it together and the fact that P.K Wrigley insisted that the spectators knew that those were women out there playing the game by the way they acted, by the uniforms, how they dressed off the field, made me realize that that was a very important part of women in sports. 52:30 15 �Interviewer: “That’s an interesting perspective I hadn’t thought of. I always judged him more harshly for that because I thought he was, you know, because I thought he was trying to feminize, or overly feminize and take advantage of the fact and your argument would be quite the contrary. He wanted to make sure—he was making sure that people knew that these were women. He was very insightful. He was very, very perceptive—that he was and I think it was important. There was a professional softball league in Chicago at that time and they dressed in I don’t know what they dressed in—shorts or whatever. 53:20 Interviewer: “Some of them dressed in trousers almost or long pants.” They didn’t draw the way we drew. We were entertainment for the industrial workers. It was a family kind of audience—kids, women and men. Interviewer: “Do you still hear from fans?” No. Interviewer: “You get requests for autographs though?” Yes, many, many. Interviewer: “Do you ever get tired of people asking for your autograph or wanting to talk about what you did?” Yes. Interviewer: “Do you feel an obligation to keep doing it regardless?” 54:07 Sure, absolutely, I don’t have any more baseball cards, they’re all gone and I had hundreds and I have to say to them, “I’m sorry I don’t have anymore”, and you can’t get them either. Interviewer: “Somebody has got to do a reprint.” Well they did one some time ago. Interviewer: “Those of you watching, what have I left out, anything? That was an easy interview. All we had to do was sit and have a conversation. You saw the movie when it came out and you have probably seen it more than once since. What’s your reaction?” 55:03 It was fun and it was a fun movie. I can see why people would enjoy seeing it. The baseball portion of it was pretty accurate and of course they had to do some Hollywood tinkering a bit. We did not live all together in our home city. The manager did not come into the women’s dressing room under any circumstances, but those two things made the movie very, very entertaining for the average person that would go to a movie. 55:43 It was fun. Interviewer: “They did have classes for some of the women to—“ The first year, only the first year. 16 �Interviewer: “There had to be some resistance in the—not everyone—how did they respond to the fact that they were going to charm school?” I don’t know, but I can imagine—it was a big joke, that’s how they responded. Interviewer: “That’s right, you weren’t there because you came two years later and that would be my guess. It was a man’s idea, I think. to have these classes anyway and that tells you something about it. 56:25 But that reinforces the idea that P.K Wrigley knew that the aura that the players had to give off, needed to be a feminine aura or it wasn’t going to go. Interviewer: “I do appreciate your perspective that it helped women in sports. That he drew attention to the fact that these were women playing that well and doing that well. That’s a good insight and I appreciate that.” 57:09 Sometimes I get, along with the request to sign cards etc., questions that they want answered and one of the is, ”did the men and boys laugh at you in the stands and did they make it hard for you?” For some reason or other, they thought that they might. Interviewer: “Did they?” No, not at all. Interviewer: “Thank you, thank you very much.” Thank you for asking me. 17 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_JCione Title A name given to the resource Cione, Jean (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cione, Jean Description An account of the resource Jean Cione was born in Rockford, Illinois in 1928. She grew up in the Rockford area and played softball with the neighborhood boys and then also played with the local industrial teams. When the Rockford Peaches made Rockford their headquarters, Cione tried out for the team and at age 15 joined the ranks of the Rockford Peaches in 1945 as a reserve rookie first baseman. In 1946, she was traded to the Peoria Red Wings and played first baseman for them but was then traded to the Kenosha Comets in 1947. She remained with the Kenosha Comets from 1947 to 1953 and played sometimes as a left-handed pitcher, first baseman, or outfield. Consequently, the Comets franchise disbanded in 1954 and she was traded back to the Rockford Peaches where she finished out when the All American Girls Baseball League was disbanded. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Olson, Gordon (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Illinois Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-09-26 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c06c8ce94e4eb6efae8934af8ca00afa.mp4 26147b7326ea404e7281dd82aaeae574 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/19bdabf6caa0470a9272ac9f450eb7f4.pdf 520195aee97472c483e9b6466582af34 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW DORIS COOK Born: Muskegon, Michigan June 23, 1931 Resides: Muskegon Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project, Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, April 18, 2013 Interviewer: Could we start with your name, and where and when were you born? My name is Doris Cook and I was born in Muskegon, Michigan on June 23rd, 1931. Interviewer: What were your early days like? You were born in Muskegon and what was your family? Tell us about your family and where you were living. Well, I’m a member of a twelve children family and we lived in the suburbs and we played sports all our life. My dad was into baseball, so the rest of us just got into sports naturally. Interviewer: What did your father do for a living? He was a pattern maker. Interviewer: So, he was the bread winner, so to speak, and your mother was a home maker? 1:03 Yes Interviewer: Where were you in the chain of twelve children? I was fourth from the oldest. Interviewer: What was your early schooling like? Well, we went to like country schools and the school went through eighth grade and then we went on to junior high and high school. 1 �Interviewer: In your early days of schooling though, did you have to walk to the school, and what did the school look like? Well, it was kind of modern like, but we did walk most of the time. There was a bus, but we lived about four blocks from the school, so they preferred we walked. Interviewer: You had a sister that was a couple of years older than you? Yes Interviewer: Did you go to school together? Yes Interviewer: In the early days I know—I‟m an only brat myself, but how did you get along with your brothers and your sisters? Oh, just fine, we played together all the time. 2:01 Interviewer: Okay, so your older sister though, what was your relationship with her? Well, it was good and we played on teams together. Interviewer: Well let‟s, before we get into that, where did you first get introduced to baseball? I guess I was such a young age, it was sand lot ball back then with all my brothers and all the neighbors. We played mostly with boys. At that time girls sports weren’t really popular, so we were playing with the boys most of the time. Interviewer: Okay, this is—you say it‟s a sand lot, so did you set up your own bases, or were they already there? No, we had to make our own in a field out behind the house, we did our own. 2 �Interviewer: This may sound like a stupid question, but how did you even know how to play baseball? Well, I guess maybe, my dad taught us. 3:00 Then it comes naturally, we didn’t seem to have a problem with it. I had two brothers older than myself and we all just—I guess we learned from my dad probably. Interviewer: Was there any adult supervision, like umpires or anything like that, while you were playing? No Interviewer: So you guys were just playing together and divided up into teams and just played? Yeah Interviewer: When you were in school learning English and math and all that, did you have any idea what you wanted to do with yourself? No, I didn’t have that in mind. Interviewer: Okay, what would be the normal route for a girl of your age at that time? For you to go—where would you go after you got out of school for example? Well, back then there weren’t a lot of careers for women, so you didn’t talk about careers. Maybe you thought you’d become a wife and a mother and you just didn’t get into where your life was leading. 4:06 Interviewer: But, you brothers, of course, were thinking in terms of what they were going to do, have jobs or things like that, but in your mind it was just a matter of getting through school and then what are you going to do at the end of school, maybe get married? 3 �Right, we didn’t think about that. Interviewer: Where did the idea of playing baseball in a more organized way come about in your life? Well, I was probably about twelve years old and my sister, of course, was a couple years older and we had city softball for women. There was nothing in the high schools, they had local city [league], and most of those women were older, of course. School teachers, physical education teachers, and I think I was twelve when I started. 5:00 Donna played ahead of me like that before she turned to pro. Interviewer: Well, let‟s not jump ahead too quickly here. How did Donna get involved with—since she was ahead of you, how did she get involved in this league? Well, because of playing locally and all your local advertisements and publicity and it was a known fact that she was a good ball player, so then they started scouting that, you know. Interviewer: So, they actually had scouts going out to these lots and watching? Well, I can’t say that, I think they got it from the newspaper and word of mouth in town where you’re popular, you know. Interviewer: So, you‟re two years behind and here she is going to play, how did that make you feel? Did that motivate you or did you get jealous? What was your reaction? I think I thought, “Well, I’ll do the same thing”, but her time came along first and that didn’t bother me. 6:04 I was still in high school; she started playing, and my dad and my mother, the family, supported it, so I just kind of followed along with that. 4 �Interviewer: Did you talk about that at the family dinners and things like that, that she was playing and that you wanted to play next? Did they have any idea that you were going to follow in her footsteps? I don’t know that we discussed it. I think it just came naturally. I was doing the same thing she had done, playing with the city softball, local and it just was like I just followed her. Interviewer: This is going to sound like a stupid question, but why baseball? Girls didn‟t play baseball that much and certainly not in the professional leagues, but why were you interested in baseball? Well, we really played a lot of sports, and I played a lot of basketball and that was also city. When I say city, we came to Grand Rapids, Holland, Zeeland and played teams from those cities, so we were really into all sports. 7:08 At that time I didn’t start bowling yet. I was busy with baseball, basketball and volleyball, but you didn’t have that stuff in high school, there wasn’t enough of that going on for girls, so you had to go and look outside of school. Interviewer: You say your parents were supportive. Did your dad talk to you and give you hints on how to play, or at that time were you playing pretty well? Oh, he gave us a lot of hints. In fact one thing he did, he’d take a new glove and take the strings out of it and remove some of the padding, because they were too thick and stiff, and he’d loosen that up for you and put it back together, so you could catch better with it. Interviewer: You know, I‟ve talked to some of the women who had difficulty getting equipment and things like that, because their parents didn‟t have the money. 8:00 5 �Your father did pretty well, I mean, he was able to buy you the equipment you needed? I think so, and between all the kids somebody had a ball and a bat. It might not be something like a bat for yourself, it’s one that everybody uses. We had our own, but other kids brought bats and balls and gloves and stuff too. Interviewer: Okay, this is a period of time in America where things economically were pretty bad. This is the depression era and how did you and your family survive through that? How did you fare? We did very well, and at that time there was probably eight of us, because some came along later, but we never had to go for help, my dad worked a lot of hours, worked every day, never took a vacation and we were well enough off. 9:00 Interviewer: First of all, Doris was always ahead right? She was always the kind of person that got involved in something and then you kind of followed in her tracks. When did you first, or your family first hear about this professional—women playing baseball, what‟s that all about? We were lucky--they came to Muskegon with a team, and in 1946 one of the teams came into Muskegon, so we just fell into it. They started playing in Muskegon at Marsh Field and my family started going to the ball games. Donna was still in high school, then graduated and went right into baseball. Interviewer: What was the process, maybe you don‟t know the detail, but I want to know the details of how you got in, but how did Donna get in? You went to the ball games, saw that there was this professional league and did you see it in the papers too, was it on the radio, how else did you know about this league? 10:00 6 �Well, I guess we saw the sports page and the ball games, and our whole family went to the games. Then Donna tried out, of course, you didn’t have to go anywhere else to try out, you know, they watched her play right there in Muskegon, so it was easy. Interviewer: So, she gets in and what about you? Well, I’m still in school, of course, I’m a couple years behind her, and while I’m a senior in high school they were going to have tryouts in Chicago. So, I got out of school and went to Chicago for a week. Interviewer: How did you get there? On the bus Interviewer: So, your dad is very supportive of this, because somebody had to have some money to get on the bus. Right, and he was all for it. Interviewer: There were no worries, at this point, about you going off by yourself to Chicago? Had you been to Chicago before? No, I don’t know if I’d ever been to Grand Rapids, and you just didn’t travel back then like that. 11:05 We had a car, but you just didn’t travel, and I don’t think they were afraid for me. I think they thought it was well supervised. Interviewer: How old were you at that point? Seventeen Interviewer: I know that was a long time ago, but what were your feelings as you got on that bus to go to Chicago? You know, I had mixed feelings about it. I didn’t know if I wanted to be away from home or get on a bus and to all these strange towns, even just getting to Chicago. But I 7 �think that once I got there they kept you so busy with the training, and all the girls, you just didn’t think about it after that. Interviewer: you had to go through a tryout though didn‟t you? Yes Interviewer: Where was that? In Chicago Interviewer: You get on the bus, you don‟t know if you‟re going to make the team, right? No Interviewer: But Donna already has? 12:02 Donna is already in the league. Interviewer: I‟m just trying to think, younger sister getting on the bus, going to tryout, sister‟s already in there, you had to have some feelings about worrying about it, are you going to miss her now? I think you do, but I think I had enough confidence that I knew I could play as well as the next one, and I didn’t have a problem with that. So, we trained and after the week was over I knew I’d made it, but I had to go back to school and graduate. Interviewer: Before we jump into that, you say it was a whole week? Yes Interviewer: Walk us through, basically, the whole week. You arrive in Chicago. Okay, is there somebody there to meet you? Yes Interviewer: So, tell us about that. 8 �The hotel arrangements are all made and all the girls are staying at the same place. then you just start right out early in the morning training all day long. Interviewer: You met these girls, where were they from? 13:02 They were from all over. Interviewer: Well, that had to be new. You grew up in a small town and had not even been to Chicago and suddenly there are all these girls. Ah huh, and they were from all over. I knew nobody, but it’s easy, you’re busy playing ball and it doesn’t seem like it was a problem. Interviewer: In the movie, A League of Their Own, they really made it a point to show that there were New York girls and they kind of had an attitude and there were other girls that were more Midwest and they were—was it anything like that to you in terms of different parts of the country? Well, it was different-- the fact that we were in Chicago and the manager was from Chicago and coached their other teams, and he had a lot of his own girls there, so they were like they had their foot in the door. They knew him and they had played together, some of them, so it wasn’t a problem for them. 14:04 Interviewer: So, your first day there, you arrive in Chicago. I take it you didn‟t train that day; you probably had a day off before you started? Probably, depending on what time I got there. Interviewer: So, first day of training what am I seeing? There‟s a—you see a baseball diamond, right? What am I seeing when you walk onto the field? Lots of girls out there, running, throwing, batting. A lot of it was running, throwing and catching; a lot of practice and training in catching. 9 �Interviewer: And there were a lot of individual—I take it there were men standing around watching every step to see how you threw, how you hit the ball and that sort of thing. Right Interviewer: There‟s a scene in the movie where Geena Davis walks out and she sees all those girls out there. That‟s pretty much the way it looked right? Is that right? Yes, ah huh, that’s pretty true. Interviewer: What were you thinking during that week? You said you had confidence going in, but you saw all these other girls, and you probably saw some of them were pretty good and maybe others you were thinking, “Well, you‟re not as good as you think you are”. What was going through your mind that week? 15:14 Well, I don’t think I ever thought I wasn’t going to make it. I just think I had enough confidence, and thought I knew how to play ball well enough that I didn’t know there was any way they wouldn’t pick me. I guess it must have been confidence. Interviewer: At the end of the week, how did they let you know, or let the other girls know, that you made a team? How did you find out? Well, I don’t recall that, I just don’t remember. I do know that I had to leave to come back to Muskegon, so they told me before I left. Interviewer: Did you know what team you were going to be playing for? Yes Interviewer: What team was that? The “Springfield Sallies” 16:00 10 �Interviewer: Now, Springfield is quite a distance away from Muskegon, in fact it‟s not even in Michigan. What was your reaction to that? Well, I wasn’t familiar with the Chicago team either, so as far as the names of the teams, or the states, I guess it didn’t mean a whole lot to me, I just knew I was on that team. Interviewer: Now, you go back home by bus and what was the reaction of your family when you told them you made the team? They were happy, and it’s like they knew I would. I don’t know that anyone thought I wouldn’t make it. Interviewer: That‟s wonderful—do you think part of it is because your sister came ahead of you and she was making it and you had shown that you—your father was confident that you were a good ball player? Yes, and we had a lot of write-ups in the paper, publicity, where they made it known we were good ball players. 17:00 Interviewer: I know that the media does things like that. Were there any items regarding the fact there are two sisters who had made it into the ball team? Well, with the league I don’t know that it did. Locally, with the city it did, because they were aware of it, so that made a lot difference in Muskegon. Interviewer: You graduate, now what happens? Like the next day, I had to get on a bus and go down to Evanston, Illinois. The teams left Chicago and started on the road and I met them down in Evanston. Interviewer: Let me get an idea—now you lived this and I have read about this, but I want to get to the details of how you were actually told where you‟re going, or did 11 �you just not know where you were going? You arrive now in Evanston and you‟re going to play for a season, right? Yes 18:03 Interviewer: Did they sit down with you and the whole team and say, “Okay, Tuesday you‟re going to be here and Wednesday you‟re going to be there playing this”. Did you have any idea where you were going and who you were playing? Not really, you had a business manager, a coach, and two chaperones for each team. The business manager went out ahead and scheduled the games. We’d play a game, get on the bus, and go to the next town. We might know where we’re going, but it didn’t mean anything to us, we didn’t know these towns, we just went wherever they said, “We’re leaving now and going to the next town”. Interviewer: Now, this is 19---you said 1945 was when you first— No, mine was 1949 Interviewer: 1949 was when you got in the professional league? Yes Interviewer: Okay, the war is already over with, the league has actually been going on through the war, so it‟s already established, it‟s not like it‟s a brand new thing, and it‟s been around a few years. 19:06 Yes Interviewer: Now, you joined a team that had experienced girls already playing and then some rookies like you. Tell me about being a rookie. Well, there were enough rookies that you know, but they made you know you were a rookie. But we didn’t have a lot of the girls that had been in the league too long. It might 12 �have been half and half. There were girls they sent on down to the tour team then from the teams they were playing with. See, Springfield was a team that was in the league and then they dropped the franchise in that city, that’s how it became Springfield, because there was a team there at one time and they had the uniforms and the whole bit.[The Sallies and another team were barnstorming teams made up mostly of new and younger players that traveled together and played each other as a sort of minor league for the AAGPBL] Interviewer: So, you‟re joined up with this team, you‟re one of the rookies, and tell us about your first game. 20:06 Oh boy, I don’t know if I can remember that. I played left field, I was the left fielder, and nothing stands out as far as-Interviewer: Were you first string? Yes Interviewer: Wow, so even though you‟re a rookie, they had you starting? Oh yeah Interviewer: Wow, so what‟s the first game you remember? Boy, I can’t tell you that, nothing stands out. Interviewer: When you‟re traveling like that it must be almost like a blur. You‟re playing a game, and you‟re playing another game. Let‟s talk about how that works, alright? You get on a bus, and it‟s a bus with all the girls and you‟ve got your chaperone on there. When did you first meet the chaperone? When you first started out, when you first came in there? Probably when the tour started 13 �Interviewer: What was her responsibility? She had to make sure we were all in our rooms at night and everybody was safe. 21:06 didn’t get in any trouble, and if there were injuries she also served like a nurse, giving rubdowns for “Charlie horses”, and she really had a big responsibility. See, both teams traveled together on the same bus. Interviewer: Two opposing teams? Yes, there were like thirty-five of us. There was the manager and two chaperones, and then girls from both teams, and the business manager. Interviewer: In the early days, as you well know, there was a chaperone and also, the chaperone was making sure you looked right and you didn‟t do this and that. But, you didn‟t have to go through any kind of charm school did you? No, they did earlier, but at that point they did not have a charm school. Interviewer: But, did they still—in particular the chaperone, did she make sure that when you were out in public you had to sit a certain way? 22:06 We had to be sure we were in skirts at all times. Never shorts, jeans, or slacks, those were not allowed, even riding on the bus. When you were on the bus you could put shorts on, but if you got off the bus you had to put your skirt back on. Interviewer: What about things like make-up and things like that? Well, they didn’t talk about make-up a lot. They worried about the hair, having the hair a certain length, and making sure everybody was clean and neat. Interviewer: And that was the chaperones‟ responsibility, so if you got out of bed one early morning and came out and your hair was disheveled, she could actually walkup to you and say, “Comb your hair”, or something like that? 14 �That’s right, yes Interviewer: Now, the manager, of course, was in charge of what goes on, on the field. Your first manager, how was your relationship with your first manager? 23:01 It was very good, a very nice man, and then he coached that team the first year. I went on tour two years, but then later he went into the league and I played for him in Kalamazoo. Interviewer: Managers, of course, are different because they have different personalities, they have skills and what not. There are some managers, for example in the movie; Tom Hanks was kind of angry and yelling at the people. What was your manager like in terms of how he reacted to you and to the team? He was very mild mannered, and a very nice guy. He liked to laugh and have fun. He kept everything under control and I won’t say he wasn’t stern, but he was not mean or-he wasn’t good at yelling at the girls. He could make them understand without getting irate. Interviewer: What was his background? 24:01 I think all he did was coach in Chicago. He coached girl’s teams in Chicago. Interviewer: Some of those guys were pro baseball players. Right, and he didn’t happen to be one of those. Most of those guys were former major league ball players. Interviewer: So, I want to get an idea of the traveling time. You have to go from city to city to play and you have both teams in the bus. What was it like to be on the bus? 15 �Well, we had a lot of fun, and when the season goes along, sometimes you get kind of irritated. There’s a lot of people around all the time, but for me it was easier because I came from a big family. It’s like I just fell into it, where some girls were the only child in their family and it was harder for them, but we got along good, even with our opposing team, we were all friends. 25:01 Interviewer: In the early days, did you have any idea of the impact that you were making on baseball, and on young girls who—as you know, later on baseball became part of high schools and girls had a lot more opportunities than they had before and when you were a kid. Did you have any idea, in the early days, that something like that would happen? Never, never in a million years Interviewer: You‟re playing baseball and you‟re enjoying baseball. We’re doing something we love. Interviewer: Now, you were paid pretty well too, by the standards of the time. Yes Interviewer: Do you remember what you were getting in the early days? When I was on tour, we made twenty-five dollars a week, but they paid all our expenses, and we got three dollars a day for meals, which back then, you could eat on that, those years back. So, actually I saved a lot of money, because we were always on the road, we weren’t spending a lot of money, so most of my money I just sent back home. 26:07 Interviewer: And your dad just put it in the bank, or whatever? Yes 16 �Interviewer: So, you had a little nest egg that you were building as you were moving along? Right Interviewer: And your father, you said, was doing well enough that he didn‟t have to tap into your money. Oh, no Interviewer: Because as you know, some of the girls were very poor and had to actually help support their families. So, in your case, you were actually building your own little nest egg, that‟s pretty good. He was all for that, that’s what he preached, “Get an account and save your money”. Interviewer: Now, in the early days you were playing on the Springfield team, where was your sister? She was in Muskegon to start with, and I think she went to Grand Rapids from there. To the Grand Rapids Chicks, and she played on several teams Interviewer: Now, did you know what she was up to and did she know what you were up to, in other words, was there a way of finding out if she hit a homerun in a game or not, or were you completely isolated because you were on the bus and doing your own? 27:06 No, we had no idea what was going on in the league and they had no idea what we were doing either. Interviewer: How did you get your news of what‟s going on in the world? Did you—were you so insulated in that bus, and then playing a game, and then back on 17 �the bus and then into the hotel, did you have any idea of what was going on around you? Yeah, we’d get the paper when we would stop at the hotels, you know, and check in. We’d usually travel all night after the ball game and check into a hotel, but we usually got the newspaper to know what was going on. Of course it didn’t have anything to do with the league; we didn’t know what they were doing. Interviewer: Right, because it wasn‟t like the New York Yankees or something like that. Right Interviewer: The local papers, though, would carry stories about, not the league necessarily, but about the individual teams in the town. Is that right? 28:00 Yes, and our business manager went out ahead and got the publicity out, and that’s how the crowds came to the ball games, they knew we were coming to town. Interviewer: In the early days, and we‟ll get into more details about your particular games that you played and your career, but in the early days, what were the crowds like? Well, we’d hit a lot of small towns, but we would get seven and eight thousand people, which was really great, because we’d be in some towns where it was almost like you were playing out in a field, in a pasture, but those are the towns that drew the fans from all over. Interviewer: Ball parks were different town to town obviously, but in terms of—a baseball diamond is a baseball diamond and you‟ve got bleachers for people to sit 18 �on, but you‟re saying that in some of the smaller towns it was out in the middle of nowhere, so to speak? Yes Interviewer: Okay, were some ball parks better than others to play on, just in terms of dirt and the way it was set up? 29:05 Yes, and we did play in some big parks, in big cities you know, a lot of big cities. Interviewer: Walk me through the process—you get up in the morning, you‟re in a hotel, you all get together and you‟re showering and you‟re getting your teeth clean and all that kind of stuff, and you‟re all kind of mingling around, and you get on the bus, right? Then the bus takes you to the ball park, and u go out and do your warm ups and your practice and what not. The crowd shows up, you play the game, get back on the bus, and then back to the hotel? No, normally we had to shower right at the ball park and get on the bus and travel. Sometimes we played a couple of nights in one town, but mostly it was just one night. After the game, we’d shower, get back on the bus, and travel all night again. 30:00 Interviewer: When did you sleep? Well, mostly on the bus. Interviewer: I‟ve been on buses, you can‟t sleep on buses. I know, I didn’t do good sleeping, but I’ve never needed much rest either, so I, really, didn’t worry about that. But when we got into a town early in the morning, most girls went to bed and got their rest before we had to get ready again. Interviewer: What time were the games, usually? Probably seven o’clock 19 �Interviewer: You had the whole day, basically. Yes Interviewer: What did you do? We did a lot of things we shouldn’t do, like go swimming. It was hot, and something we liked. A lot of us would go to the swimming pool, a lot of girls went to the movies where it was air conditioned, to keep cool, but basically, that’s about what I remember. Interviewer: How come you said it was things you were not supposed to do? What‟s wrong with swimming and going to a movie? Well, you take all your energy Interviewer: Ah, okay 31:04 They didn’t want you to be all tired by the time it came time for a ball game. Interviewer: Well, if that‟s the case, how did you get by the chaperone to go swimming? We had our skirts on, and she didn’t know that we were doing that. Interviewer: So, there was a little bit of talking amongst you, “Today we‟re going to go to the swimming pool, and how are we going to get out?” You were pretty much free to do what you wanted in terms of, “you got your skirt on, so you‟re allowed to go out into the town”, right? Go shopping or whatever? So, they didn‟t have someone with you all the time? No, so several of us would be together, and we’d have to get a cab to go to a pool, and we were just busied for the day, and we really stayed out of trouble. Interviewer: Were there any of you that got in trouble? Not really 20 �Interviewer: Okay I think maybe one or two girls were sent home. 32:02 Interviewer: Why were they sent home? Maybe even smoking, and we were young enough there was very little drinking. There might have been one girl that had been drinking and they sent her home, but normally, we were too young for any of that. But, if they didn’t do what they were told, that’s why they were sent home. They didn’t follow the rules. Interviewer: The rules were made very clear to you I take it in the very beginning? Yes Interviewer: No smoking, no drinking, always wear the dress, behavior had to be within certain guidelines and what not? Yes Interviewer: Where do you recall is the first real game that you played that you can remember as this is the game that you played and did something that was out of the ordinary? Was there a game you can remember? No not—what happened, I was the left fielder and I started getting Charlie horses, so then I wasn’t able to run. 33:10 So, when I was on the injured list then he started changing me over to pitching, so then I started becoming a pitcher. Interviewer: Had you pitched before when you were in softball or early on? No, never and I still, today, couldn’t pitch softball, I don’t think, underhand. Interviewer: By 1949 I‟m trying to remember now, what size was the ball? Had already gone from a larger size to a smaller size? 21 �Yeah, it was just under a softball, and then as the years went along they reduced it. Interviewer: Now, were you pitching side arm or overhand? Overhand, and there were sidearm pitchers though/ Interviewer: So, basically, the coach got you to be a pitcher because your leg was bothering you, you couldn‟t run out in the outfield to catch, you would hurt your leg. 34:04 Whereas a pitcher, basically, stands up there and throws the ball and doesn‟t run around a whole lot. Yeah Interviewer: What happened to the pitcher that was before you? Did you just become like a substitute pitcher? Well, we had several pitchers; we had three or four pitchers, so nobody had to pitch every night. Interviewer: From my recollection of baseball, you had first string and second string. Did that apply to your group, or you just had pitchers that pitched different games? Yeah, just different pitchers Interviewer: So, it wasn‟t as if you had one pitcher that played most of the games and when that person got tired you replaced them? No, it’s like the majors today where they put in a pitcher. Interviewer: Okay, your first game as a pitcher, if I remember correctly, was it Yankee Stadium? Is that accurate? 35:00 Well, we played there, but that was not our first game. Interviewer: But, your first game as a pitcher? 22 �I’ll tell you, nothing rings a bell as far as anything outstanding. Interviewer: Okay, because I have a note here that when you played at Yankee Stadium there were some Yankees there and you exchanged a signed ball with Tommy Henrich, is that right? Tommy Henrich, yes Interviewer: Tell us about that and what happened there? Well, we were there to play some exhibition before their game, so we were out in the field with them while they were having warm-ups, and so we got to talk to the fellows and I changed balls with Tommy Henrich. They would take our ball and bat it, and we were all just inner mingling. Interviewer: What‟s the difference between an exhibition game and just a regular game that you usually played? 36:00 Well, being on the tour it was, really, mostly all exhibitions, but going into the Yankee Stadium was strictly an exhibition of a couple of innings. Interviewer: Oh, I see, you just played a couple of innings. Yeah, just before their game. They were playing the Washington Senators, and we were just out on the field ahead of that in a couple of innings. Interviewer: Okay, I got it. Now, when you‟re in a city like that or a town like that, doing exhibition, did you also have to play a regular game? Well, we didn’t that night. Interviewer: So, you had a chance to go out in spectator seats and watch the game? Yes, and we did that at Washington’s Griffith Stadium also. In Washington, we went there and did that too. 23 �Interviewer: You must have seen some amazing ball players. We did Interviewer: Who were some of the ones that were playing around that time? Do you recall any names? Well, I think Mickey Mantle and Whitey Ford, some of the big guys. Interviewer: Wow, these are legends. 37:05 Now, this is an unfair question and I‟m giving you this in advance, okay? You‟re a good ball player, you know you‟re a good ball player, and you‟re watching Mickey Mantle, or Whitey Ford, was there ever any comparisons in your own mind about, “I can hit better than that”, or anything like that going on? I never thought that. Interviewer: Okay I never compared myself to the men. A lot of women think they could have played with the men, and maybe they could have, but as a rule, generally women are just like a step behind men, I think. Interviewer: Well, in terms of that league, you had—your actual diamond was a little bit different, right? A little smaller Interviewer: Smaller, and of course, the ball was bigger as well. Yes Interviewer: Okay, the trips that you took on the buses and the times that you spent in the hotel rooms, having dinner, lunch, or whatever, what was the mood of the 24 �team? 38:06 Did you have some friends that you made or was it kind of like you were all ball players? Did you make some good friends out of that group? Yes, lots of friends, and they’re still friends today. We still see each other at reunions or talk on the phone or correspond. Interviewer: What about the fact that they came from all over? The part, I guess that I‟m trying to get to is — I‟ve been fortunate enough that I‟ve been in an international environment. I met people from all over the world and I met people from different parts of the country, but you‟re coming from a small town, going into some of these bigger cities that you‟ve never been to before and you‟re meeting other girls that play as good as you, and are on your team, and opposing teams, but one‟s from South Carolina, maybe, and another one from New York. Was there any kind of curiosity, on your part, of how they lived their lives? Did they ask you questions about what it was like when you were growing up? Was there any of that kind of talk? 39:06 Yes, because quite a few of the girls were from Chicago and they live a different lifestyle, that’s all there is to it. When they understand how we lived they just said, “I couldn’t live like that”, and I’m saying, “I can’t live like you live either”. Some girls were from like Arkansas where they came right from the hills, and they lived a different lifestyle, but we all intermixed, you know. Interviewer: But there was a noticeable difference though, you could really tell there was—the way they talked for example, and I imagine they thought you talked funny, and you probably thought they talked funny? 25 �Yes, that’s right, and there were places where we went and people would say, “You’re from the Midwest states; we can tell by the way you talk”. We don’t think we have any kind of an accent, and when you get out east too, you know, it’s another ball game out east, the way those people live. 40:05 We were in around New York, New Jersey, Newark, and all those cities around in there. We played those when we’d wrap up the season, we’d be up in that way and you can tell immediately the difference in the attitude of the people just getting on an elevator, being in a hotel and being with different classes of people from different areas of the whole country. Interviewer: But you had a pretty solid family background. You had a solid ground, so you knew pretty much who you were, so even though you were dealing with people who had different ways of doing things, you still pretty much stuck to your own way of doing things. Yes, I think I always had a mind of my own. Nobody could convince me of, like doing the wrong thing. I knew what was right or wrong and I just wasn’t made that way. 41:02 Interviewer: Now, 1950 you leave the Springfield Sallies, and you‟re now moving on to Kalamazoo, is that right? Yes Interviewer: Why did that happen and how? Tell us about how that occurred. They didn’t have the tour after that. The two teams did not tour again and my manager from the tour was doing the Kalamazoo team and they asked me to play there. Interviewer: So, you‟re going from being a touring team, now to having a home team? Yes 26 �Interviewer: Okay, so what does that do in terms of where you‟re living, because you‟ve been living on the road, basically, all through the season? By the way, what happens after the season is over, did you just go back home? Yes Interviewer: And what did you do in the off season? The first year, we‟re talking about 1949-1950. We ran a soda bar. My dad had a soda bar, and us girls ran it, and it was just strictly in the family. 42:05 Interviewer: So, he went from his job—he was able to invest in a business and sold malts and root beer floats and things like that? Yes, sandwiches and we had a really good business, but the problem was my sister and I going away, and during the summer months when it’s the most busy, so after a couple years we stopped doing that, because he couldn’t handle it with us gone. My other sisters came and helped us, but they were all still in school. Interviewer: Now, when you got back home, both you and your sister, did you talk about—brag to each other or try to one up each other, what was that like? Oh, I don’t think we did, I don’t remember doing that. You talk about things, but we weren’t trying to outdo each other. 43:01 Interviewer: Did you talk about particular plays that you did that you thought she would be interested in, like you hit a home run, or something like that? No Interviewer: Okay, there‟s no real competition between the two of you? No, not really 27 �Interviewer: Okay, because sometimes those siblings, they got that competition going on. I didn’t feel that way, but I’m not sure how she felt. I can’t speak for her, you know. Interviewer: So, the touring team ends, and now because the manager already knew your talents, he decided he wanted you to become part of the Kalamazoo Lassies now? Yes Interviewer: What was that transition like? You went from being on the bus all the time, hotels, play, busses, what was the difference? Did you have to move to Kalamazoo? Yes, and I lived with a family. I just had a room with a couple other girls, and girls that were on the tour that I knew. In fact, neither one of them were on the team I was on, on tour, but we were friends and we lived with this family in Kalamazoo. 44:06 We just rented a room. Interviewer: So, what was your daily routine? I know what it was like when you were on the touring bus, but what is it like now that you‟re in Kalamazoo? Well, a lot of times we had to go and practice, but otherwise we found things to do. Like I said, go swimming, or other things, going to movies. Interviewer: Do you remember the first day playing at the Kalamazoo, playing for the Kalamazoo Lassies? No, not really Interviewer: Okay, what was the difference though, in terms of playing, was it just, basically, the same kind of thing, you‟re just playing the game? 28 �I think it was the same, except now I’m a real rookie with lots of veterans, and that’s the point where they made us know we were rookies and they were veterans, but there were enough of us that we stuck together, so that didn’t bother us. 45:04 I can’t say they were mean to us, they were just like, “We’re a little better than you are”, but that doesn’t last either. Interviewer: Oh, okay, because you start to prove yourself and once you start hitting that ball or catching that ball, they— And they get to know you, you know. Interviewer: Are there any notable games you can remember while you‟re in Kalamazoo? No Interviewer: How was your hitting? Not good Interviewer: Neither was mine, I was a pitcher too. I have to admit, I was not a batter. Interviewer: How was your pitching? I was fairly good. Interviewer: Any specialalities? No Interviewer: Okay, I actually learned how to throw a knuckle ball, and that was pretty impressive in little league, somebody throwing a knuckle ball. Yeah, because back then you didn’t talk about all the pitches they talk about today. 46:00 29 �Interviewer: Sure, sure, was it during this period of time that the transition went from the larger ball to a smaller ball? Yes, as the years went along it reduced two or three times. Interviewer: Right, how did you adapt to that? Was there any problem in adapting to it? I mean, it‟s a different weight though isn‟t it? Yeah, and it was a good change. It would have been worse if it was the other way around, to a bigger ball. Interviewer: So, you played with the Kalamazoo lassies from 1951 to 1953. During this period of time you were making good money and money was still going back home to be saved up in the bank. What was happening during the off seasons? You said that after a while you were no longer working in the soda fountain. 47:00 No, when I started playing in Kalamazoo I decided to stay there, because several of us stayed there then, lots of the girls stayed. Interviewer: You‟re now like nineteen, almost twenty years old by this time right? Yes Interviewer: So, you‟re actually going from being a girl to, now you‟re more of an independent woman? Yes Interviewer: You‟re making your own money, you‟re not beholding to anybody per say, okay, so you decided to stay in Kalamazoo. Just renting the room? Yes, living with, like, the same girls most of the time, and then we all played basketball together, we had the Lassie basketball team. Interviewer: This was a city team? 30 �Yes, and I started working at a bank then. Well, I started working at First National Bank in Kalamazoo. And, of course, I left there to play ball again in 1952. 48:02 They said, “Now, when you leave, we’re not going to hire you back, you won’t have your job”, and I said, “that’s okay, I’m going anyway”. So, the next year, after I played ball and was looking for a job, I was hired at Comerica Bank right across the street, and then they hired me back each time. Interviewer: This leads me to another question then. You‟re playing baseball professionally, making good money; you‟re working at a bank now okay? In your own mind now, at that time, what were you thinking in terms of your career? Were you thinking you were going to be a professional baseball player for the rest of your life, or at least for the rest of your physical ability to play, or were you already thinking, “Wait a minute, this is not going to last very long, I‟m going to be a banker or whatever”. Was any of that going through your head? Well, not in the early days. 49:00 In 1953 then, when I was loaned to South Bend, and came back to Kalamazoo, because I was still living there, that’s when I decided, “I’m just going back to the bank, I got a job at the bank, I’ll just give up baseball”. Interviewer: Jumping back a little bit, did you ever think of baseball as being a career? Not for my whole life, no. Interviewer: Why, why would you not think that you could continue playing, at least until you were physically unable to? 31 �I think that’s what you think about, “I won’t always be able to do this”. Of course, we had no idea the league was going to fold either, that was a surprise because there were girls that intended to keep playing. Interviewer: That‟s why I‟m asking you this, because I‟ve interviewed girls that thought that they were going to continue to play baseball, but you already figured out that wasn‟t going to be your path. 50:04 Right, when they loaned me to South Bend I thought, “Oh, I’m not going to go through this and have them start shifting me around”. I thought, “I got a job, I’m just going to go to work”. Of course, then I went back into local softball and basketball. I still had my sports, just not on the professional level. Interviewer: 1953, you„re playing with the Kalamazoo lassies and you were saying, just now, that they loaned you out, what does that mean? South Bend was short players, so they sent me there to help out, which they did a lot of girls. In fact, that’s the only time my sister and I played on the same team; she was loaned to South Bend also, so then we got to live together for those couple of months and play on the same team, which was the first time. 51:01 Interviewer: We‟re going to start winding it down, were about down to about five minutes more of tape, so we‟re going to wind it down and when they change the tape we‟ll get back into more of this. I wanted you to know in advance that we‟re going to stop here just briefly and switch the tapes. Okay Interviewer: I want to get into, not right now, but I obviously want to get into you being in South Bend with your sister. I think that‟s interesting and hopefully there 32 �are little stories there. You haven‟t really talked a lot about your own playing and the games. I don‟t know if it‟s just a matter of not remembering specific games, but I‟d like to talk more about some of the games that you played, and the other thing is more of the details of things like uniforms and equipment, because when you were playing on the sand lots you were saying somebody had a glove and somebody had a ball and somebody had a bat you always used and it was different when you became professional, so I want to get into those kinds of details as well. Yes, okay 52:02 Interviewer: Not being able to hit a home run—my entire time in the little league, as a pitcher, I only had one home run. Are you ready for this one? It was a bunt and they made so many mistakes, they overthrew this one and overthrew that one, so that was my claim to fame. My only homerun was on a bunt. Isn’t that funny? Interviewer: Now, we‟re into some of the details of the league, how the league was run, how you perform within the league, and let‟s start with the uniform. 53:03 When you were playing in the back sand lots it was what? Basically blue jeans and what not, whatever you could wear. When did you first, if you can recall, first see the uniform, the girl‟s uniform? Well, I was fortunate to see the Lassies in Muskegon when they came there in 1946, so I knew what they were wearing before I ever joined the league. Interviewer: What was your reaction? You‟re a young girl and you‟re supposed to dress in certain ways. Certainly you couldn‟t walk out in the street, at fourteen 33 �years old, wearing a skirt like that. Was there any reaction at all of the uniforms from you? I don’t think so, I think a rule is a rule and that was the uniform to wear, and if you didn’t like it you wouldn’t play. There was no question, it’s like all the rules, and you just had to abide by the rules. 54:01 Interviewer: What was the uniform that you wore, the first one--with the Springfield Sallies? What were the colors and what did it look like? Well, I had been fortunate, I had a white uniform with green trim, and, basically, that’s what I had in Kalamazoo, except on the road, then we wore gold, but our home uniforms were white with green, just like I was accustom to. Interviewer: Hat, baseball hat? Hat and those were like wool hats, socks, knee socks that were wool. Interviewer: Did you wear cleats? Yes Interviewer: So, they were just like professional baseball. Yes, and those were not furnished. Interviewer: Oh, really? No, you bought your own cleats and your own glove. The bats and balls were furnished, and the uniform, but we provided our own mitt. 55:02 Interviewer: Why? 56:08 You said you had to furnish your own shoes, the cleats, and your own glove, out of your own pocket. Why was that, the balls and the bats and the uniform, all that was taken care of? I don’t know why either, you know. 34 �Interviewer: The skirt itself also had shorts underneath, but the skirt did not protect your knees sliding in or anything. Did you ever have an incident where you had to slide into a base that you can remember? No Interviewer: But you saw other do that? Yes, and in the earlier years those skirts were a little longer and they were fuller. 57:02 But, they learned to make those more chic like and shorter, where it was easier when throwing and sliding and running, otherwise you had too much of a skirt. Interviewer: Right, did you ever see anyone slide in? What happens when they slide onto a base? Well, a lot of the girls had strawberries, raw hips, and some had it all year long, because they were used to that. I think my sister was one of the first people back then that slid head first. You know, they all do it today, but years ago they didn’t do that and I think she was the first one that I can recall seeing slide head first. Interviewer: From a civilian perspective, a male civilian perspective, I find it really difficult to grasp that you would slide into a base. 58:02 Literally, you call it a strawberry and we‟re talking about scraping the skin in the dirt and the stones and all that. That’s right Interviewer: Well, did they put anything on it? Did you put a band aid on it? Oh yeah, they got treated afterwards by the chaperone, 35 �Interviewer: But this was common. This is something that went on game after game and women were always getting these scrapes and what not, but that didn‟t strike you as strange? No, it’s like that was the rule and you just abided by it. Interviewer: so, the uniform, each team had their own uniforms so you could tell the difference between the teams, obviously, but you said you had, I missed the wording, but you said you had one kind of uniform and then you had a second kind of uniform? Yeah, we wore white uniforms at home and colored on the road, which the major leagues do now too. 59:00 But, we did that way back then. Interviewer: I get you now, okay—tell us about the fans. You got good crowds? Very good, very good Interviewer: These were people who were e supporting one team or the other, the home team or the other team, but were there any, in particular, that you can recall, particular fans? Well, I had a lot of friends in Kalamazoo, being I worked there during the winter months, and I would become acquainted with people, but we had regular followings though. Back in Muskegon we had a “knothole gang”, kids that stood outside the fence and they had little holes in the fence to look through and they called them the “knothole gang”. Back in Muskegon, one year, they had a hundred and forty thousand fans, which was a record, and at one game they had seven thousand. 00:01 Interviewer: Now, the “knotholes” is because they couldn‟t afford the ticket to get in, right? So, they just looked through the holes in the wood. 36 �Yes, and I see people today, kids, guys in Muskegon who were part of that. They come up and say, “I used to go to the games and I was part of the “knothole gang””. Interviewer: We got to talk to those guys--that‟s wonderful. Now, I know that professional baseball, whether it‟s women‟s baseball or male baseball, there are certain—there are fans that like one particular player or a couple of players. Did you ever have a fan club? Kind of, yes, I—it’s easy for me because I like people and I didn’t have a problem. Interviewer: Tell us about this, how did you know that these people were watching? These were young boys? Yes, and off the field I was friends with them, and we became friends because they came to the ball games. 1:03 And after the game we’d go out and eat and during the day, or on weekends, we’d go to a movie, and these fellows would follow us wherever we went. When they could do that, their work would allow them to do that, and they would come to Grand Rapids, Fort Wayne, and South Bend. We were centrally located in Kalamazoo, so these fellas could move around, and they did not miss a game. There must have been six or eight of them. Interviewer: Were they around your age? Yes Interviewer: Okay, what was their motivation for following you guys around? Well, I’m not sure, and they became friends with the other girls too and some of them might have their eye on one of them and be interested. I mean, there was always that chance. 2:01 37 �Interviewer: These are baseball fans who just happen to be enamored by you and your teammates since they would travel around to different places. I imagine that was also true of other teams. I don‟t know if you know that or not, but do you think that‟s true of other teams? I think so, I think so, I’m sure that’s how some of the girls met their husbands, by going to ball games. Interviewer: You were a pitcher through most of your career? Yes Interviewer: You started off, as I recall that, you played in left field and because of your Charlie horses you were made into a pitcher. Did you feel that you got better as a pitcher as time goes on, simply because you were practicing, obviously, more and more, but did you feel like you got better, or did you just kind of take to being a pitcher? I don’t know if I got better. I felt, myself, that I was kind of wild, but, you know, I’m left handed and that’s what they say, that left handers are wild. 3:05 Interviewer: Did you ever “bean” anybody? No, but close, and one incident, we were in New York and the leadoff batter was a small girl and the first pitch I threw went behind her instead of in front of her, and she yelled so loud you could have heard her for a mile. She was just like, you know, petrified. Well, that made me laugh and everybody there was laughing and I could not keep a straight face after that, the way she yelled. I couldn’t believe I did it to start with, but it was just an incident I’ll never forget. 38 �Interviewer: There had to be individual batters that everybody knew was a really good batter. 4:03 When I was in little league there was a guy that was taller than all the rest of us and everybody knew that this guy was a major hitter. So, the first time he ever came up to me, as a pitcher, I remember that distinctly. Now, this interview is not about me, so I‟m not going to go into details, but I want to know, did something like that happen to you? There was somebody who already had a reputation for being a hitter and you‟re the pitcher, and your job is to strike that person out, or at the very least, have them hit the ball in such a way that your teammates can get them out. Now, can you recall running up against somebody who was—had a reputation for being a good hitter? Well, we had several in the league; in fact, one of them was on our own team, Doris Sams, who was one of the league’s best hitters, but there were several on other teams that you had to watch out for. Interviewer: Do you recall any incident where you had real trouble striking a person out? 5:02 No, not to my knowledge Interviewer: Did anyone hit a home run off of you? I don’t think so, I don’t remember any. Interviewer: What was the biggest fear, as a pitcher, what was the biggest fear you had of the batter? In terms of, are they going to hit it into right field, left field, are they going to hit a line drive, what were the ones that you were concerned the if you threw the ball a certain way, it was going to get hit in a certain way and then you guys were in trouble, do you remember? Because I can remember when I was a 39 �pitcher, one of the things I was concerned about was when they would hit over my head right down the line and, of course, the short stop and they would all try—and then you would have bases running. Did any of that kind of strategy go through your head when you were pitching? Nope, nope, I think I was so busy trying to get the ball over the plate that I didn’t worry about where they were going to hit it. 6:02 Interviewer: Okay, did you have a special? Was your fast ball really good? Did you have a curve ball? Mostly fast ball, but being a left hander you had a natural curve, so that’s one thing the catcher was worried about, you know, a left hander throwing it. Interviewer: What was your actual pitching style? I raised my leg and threw that way. How did you pitch? Straight overhand Interviewer: But you had to wind up? Oh, yeah Interviewer: And then what? You brought the ball here, right, and then what? Then I kicked my leg too. Interviewer: You did kick your leg? Yeah Interviewer: That gave you the traction to do the overhand? Right, to throw straight down, you know. Interviewer: Any times when the ball came straight at you, when they hit the ball? 7:01 40 �A couple of times Interviewer: Can you talk about that? Do you remember that? No, I was fast enough to reach out, you know. I didn’t get hit with it anyway. I was either fast enough to get out of the way or catch it. Interviewer: Do you remember any close games? I mean ones where you really didn‟t know if you were going to win or not? Not right off hand, no. I guess we’re talking about too many years ago that nothing sticks in my mind. Interviewer: Sure, sure, you were talking about this “knothole gang” and these young gentlemen who used to follow you around. What about girls, did girls come to the games? I mean, eleven, twelve, thirteen, you know, a little younger than you, but were there girls at these games? I’m sure there were, because we had bat girls, too. There were young girls that hung around the ball park and then they became a bat girl, but most of them were not real young kids. 8:05 There were lots of ladies there, lots of women that enjoyed the sport. Interviewer: I was thinking that here you had these male admirers that were following you around, and I‟m just wondering why there were no younger girls that were fascinated by the baseball and would want to meet with you and talk to you. I don’t know, I think that it wasn’t that popular yet in the schools like todays time. They didn’t do that in school like they do today. Interviewer: Did you have to sign autographs? Yes Interviewer: Like balls and things like that? 41 �Yes, we did a lot of that. Interviewer: Was that done just after the game? People would come up and ask you for an autograph? Sure Interviewer: What was your reaction to that? You‟d seen Yankee‟s baseball gets those sorts of things and did you just take that in stride that somebody wanted your autograph? Yeah, I didn’t think about it like I’m really something, and it seemed like that was the thing to do. 9:05 You liked that they wanted your autograph and I liked it when the people liked me. Interviewer: Did you ever get interviewed for a newspaper or radio during those days, do you remember? No, I’m trying to think Interviewer: In terms of—I want to get, once again, down to the “South Bend Blue Sox” when you were loaned out. You were part of a major team, the “Kalamazoo Lassies”, you were part of a touring team, the “Springfield Sallies”, was that a different experience for you to be just loaned out to a team? Yes Interviewer: In what way? I don’t know, but I didn’t like it, and I know a lot of girls were loaned. My sister played on about eight different teams and I guess that comes with the territory, but I didn’t like it when I was loaned out. 10:07 Interviewer: Why? 42 �I don’t know, I guess I thought, I didn’t know if Kalamazoo didn’t need me, and maybe it hurt my feelings, and maybe that’s why I quit at the end of the year. Interviewer: I guess that‟s what I was getting at, maybe that was part of the motivation. It was like; “I’m not going back”, but they still had my contract in Kalamazoo. I’m like, “I’m not going to go back and have them start shifting me around”. Interviewer: When you‟re playing with the “Lassies”, and when you played with the “Sally‟s”, you had mentioned that there‟s a sense of--you have a team, there‟s a camaraderie, you know the people, you‟re going through the same kinds of trials and tribulations, but with the South Bend team did you feel that, it was—did you feel like you were part of that team? 11:00 Yeah, it was alright Interviewer: A different uniform? Oh yeah—well, the same short skirt, different colors is all. Interviewer: Right, how did you get fitted for those? Did they have a tailor there, or something? Yeah, they had places they would take them and have them dry cleaned and stuff. They had places to take them, because we didn’t wash our own uniforms. Those were left at the clubhouse and I believe the chaperone, that was her job to make sure the uniforms got cleaned, so they were dry cleaned, you know. Interviewer: What did you do for—you mentioned before that on the off days, or the days before you played a game, you would either go swimming, or you would go 43 �to the movies, but what was some of the other recreation? What were some of the other things you used to do? Right off hand I can’t tell you. Interviewer: Were you a reader, did you like to read? Sure, but then you didn’t have TV like today. 12:02 You didn’t sit home and watch TV, and it’s like we had something going on all the time, maybe with several of us going shopping. Interviewer: Were you very fashion conscious? No, not really, of course I worked in the bank, so you had to wear skirts again, you always wore a dress, so that part of it, you weren’t in slacks like you are today. That wasn’t the style. Interviewer: Right, now during this period of time, you‟re starting out at seventeen and you‟re into your twenties, and if this is too personal you just don‟t have to say anything, but it was at this time—usually, when a young girl starts to think about boys and boys start thinking about girls. Was there anybody in the wings there? 13:00 Yup, I had boy friends in Kalamazoo, and I had them in Muskegon while I was in high school, but nothing serious on my part, but I had several boyfriends. Interviewer: Now, these boyfriends--were they people you attracted because you were a ball player, or they met you when you were not playing ball? Well, both 44 �Interviewer: Because that‟s got to be flattering, to be playing baseball and some guy comes up and he‟s obviously interested in talking to you and maybe wants to go out to a movie, or something like that? Yes, and I did that a lot, or we went swimming. After the game they took you out for dinner. We had a couple of hours until we had to be back, but we went out for dinner a lots of times after the ball game, but I did go places with them, or go to movies—a lot of activities. Interviewer: Did you travel in groups when you went on these dates, and whatnot? Was there like two of you, or three of you, a group of you? 14:05 Yes, maybe a couple of the girls and two or three of the boys. Interviewer: Were you a dancer? No, back then I wasn’t. I just wasn’t interested then. Interviewer: We had talked earlier about the fact that you didn‟t see baseball as a career for you, and you could see that there was something else you wanted to do, what did you want to do besides baseball, or did you know at that time? I know you worked in a bank, but that was basically because it was a job, but what did you want to do? Well, I think at that point in my life, I thought I’d be in banking all my life. I wasn’t scouting around looking for something new. I wished I had gone on to college, and living in Kalamazoo, that would have been ideal. Interviewer: That was available to women, at that time, to be able to go to college? 15:02 45 �Yes, and some of our girls did that, some of the girls that I roomed with. I wish I had, because I would be a physical education teacher. Interviewer: Okay, that makes sense. That’s the regret I have, of not getting into PE. Interviewer: Right, but you, after you—let‟s talk about that. The south Bend Blue Sox, you still have a contract with Kalamazoo though, right? Yes Interviewer: What made you decide to quit baseball? The league didn‟t fold until 1954. Right Interviewer: That wasn‟t the reason. No, I got my contract in 1954, but I was working at the bank, and I just decided I wasn’t going to do that, and then have them shift me around, which I had no idea they would, but I just thought, “I’ll just keep my job”, and it’s funny how that happened, because the league stopped then that year. 16:08 In 1954 it was all done. Interviewer: Was your sister still playing? Yes Interviewer: So, what was her reaction to your quitting, do you remember? No Interviewer: There was no conversation about, “What are you doing?” “Are you crazy?” “What are you doing?” There was nothing like that? No Interviewer: What about your dad? 46 �I think he didn’t like it, because he really enjoyed the fact that we played, and that was really his life, you know, but he didn’t try to stop me. Interviewer: Well, it was a responsible job, and working at a bank, at that time, was a very prestigious thing. Right Interviewer: But what about—and maybe it‟s too much detail, but what about the money, was the bank paying better than baseball, or was baseball paying better than the bank? No, I think I was making more playing baseball. Maybe not a lot more, but I was making more than on the job. 17:03 Interviewer: But, you didn‟t have to travel, didn‟t have to get on the bus, didn‟t have to do a lot of that sort of thing. Right Interviewer: Did you—forgive me because my dates are not where they should be, but did you go to Cuba? No, I was not in the league at that time. Interviewer: Okay, was there any unusual place that you went beside just to South Bend and Kalamazoo. Was there any particular place that really sticks out, maybe New York City or someplace like that? When I played on tour there were a lot of places, and Washington was one of them, and New York. Interviewer: Washington D.C.? Yes 47 �Interviewer: What was your impression of Washington? This is has got to be—I remember when I first went to Washington D.C., it‟s amazing with all those monuments and all that, and you were a young kid. I know, and you know, they kept us so busy playing one game here and moving into one game there, that I wasn’t really impressed too much with a lot of cities. I liked the fact that I had been there, and we did see a lot of the country. 18:05 When we were on tour we went over a hundred thousand miles each summer, and played games, usually one night stands. It took us all the way from the Midwest, down south, back up to the east coast, and then we went up into Canada. So, we went across the border into Canada, and those are things that never would have happened in my lifetime. Interviewer: If you were a banker. That’s right, yeah Interviewer: What was it like down south? Different than the way we live, but nothing sticks out in my mind that—where the people were so—I think the people down south are really nice people, where I can’t always say that when you get to big cities. 19:04 You know, you get to New York and Newark and some of those big cities and everybody’s-- it’s a busy life, it’s a different life style. Interviewer: Did you have hecklers? Yes Interviewer: Like what? Do you remember? Probably in New York Yeah well, I just—I can’t tell you what I---anything that sticks out in my mind. Interviewer: But, you did get heckled, and there were people that would yell out. 48 �“White girls can’t play ball”, you know, and stuff like that. Of course I think they change their mind once they see us play, and that’s when it comes about, you know. They can talk and holler all they want, but once they see the game they know better. 20:00 Interviewer: What was the process of getting out of your contract with Kalamazoo, or did it just end and then you just decided not to renew, what happened? They sent me a contract and I just returned it and said I wasn’t interested. Interviewer: Your coach didn‟t contact you or say, “Why aren‟t you going to do this?” No, it went back to the business manager and they probably had enough players that they didn’t worry about it. Interviewer: How did you find out that the league folded? Well, living in Kalamazoo I was able to be up on the latest news with that, and I was rooming with one of the girls that was playing. We roomed together and then when I stopped playing ball we still roomed together. I went to work and she went to play ball, so I knew, because I was still friends with all the girls. 21:02 Interviewer: What was your reaction? Well, I just couldn’t believe it, but I’m sure the ones still playing ball couldn’t believe it more than me, and I was stunned. I thought they’d still be playing. Interviewer: Did you have any emotional reaction? Were you angry or sad or anything like that? No, because I wasn’t part of it anymore. Interviewer: Did you miss it? 49 �Yes, but I did go back into softball, local softball in Kalamazoo, so I was still playing, and then we started playing basketball, so I was still active. Then I got into bowling and some of the other sports. Interviewer: So, sports have been a major part of your life. Yes Interviewer: Let‟s talk about the aftermath of playing baseball. 22:02 You‟re working at the bank now, and what was the next major thing that happened in your life? Well, I still would have been in Kalamazoo, but my mom got sick, back in Muskegon and my three sisters that were still home got married and they went away with their husbands to the war. So, they all left town and my mom wasn’t well, and that’s when I decided I better quit my job at Comerica and go back home and see if I could help. Interviewer: So, what did you do? What work were you doing back home? Well, I worked in a bank. Interviewer: I see, so you just found another job in a bank. The vice-president there got be a job back in Muskegon, so I knew when I went home that I already had a job, and then I lived at home with my folks, and there were still some of the kids’ home, the younger ones. Interviewer: What happened to your older sister that was playing baseball? When baseball was over with what did she do? 23:01 She stayed in Rockford the first year. Interviewer: Rockford, Illinois? 50 �Yeah, that’s where she ended up playing ball, so she got a job over there and things weren’t working out right, so she came back home and I got her a job in the bank, so then she worked at the bank for twenty-five years after that, so that was good for her and then she got settled down. Interviewer: Did you start a family? No, I never did. I don’t know, I guess because I came from a big family I never felt like I missed anything. We always had little kids around, you know, and by then we had nieces and nephews and my life was already full. Interviewer: Looking back, now we had talked earlier about when you played baseball you really had no idea of the effect that your actions, and the actions of your fellow ball players, as women, were having on this culture and on the way women play sports. 24:10 Now, go to any high school in America and you‟ve got a girls baseball team, a girls basketball team and whatever. When you were growing up that didn‟t happen, that didn‟t exist at all. No Interviewer: So, here you are working in the bank now, the league is over with, you‟re going on with your life, there‟s your family, there‟s families around you, when did you start thinking—when did you start becoming aware of the effect that professional women‟s baseball had? Was there any, even in the fifties and into the sixties, was there any idea that there was some affect that you had? No not really, it took about twenty years after our league folded and then we started having reunions and then things started happening where then we got inducted into the Cooperstown Hall of Fame. 25:10 51 �Interviewer: When was the first reunion that you can remember, do you remember that? I believe it was 1980. Interviewer: So, how did you find out there was going to be a reunion? They had one of our girls out of Kalamazoo, and she started it. Interviewer: Do you remember who it was? June Peppas, she had a print shop, in fact, she really lived in Allegan at that time, but she go everybody’s names and addresses and people that she didn’t have, somebody else would help her find them. They’d say, “Oh, I know so and so and I know where they live, or I have their address”, and she formed the first reunion, and we went to Chicago. Interviewer: How did you find out, did you get an invitation in the mail? How did you find out? She sent out invitations and planned the whole thing, with help. 26:04 Interviewer: I want you to think about this now. What was your reaction when you opened up that piece of paper and this has been twenty years? You haven‟ played baseball professionally, you left early and you open this thing up and they‟re saying, “We want you to come”. I thought, “Great, I get to see all the girls again”, and I had friends still in Kalamazoo, so we talked to each other and I went down to Kalamazoo and we rode together to Chicago to the reunion. I rode with other girls who had roomed with us before, and it was just great seeing everybody after all those years. Interviewer: Can you recall any of the conversation in the car going up? You must have had—the anticipation alone of seeing all these people you really cared for and 52 �had a major impact in your life, what was that like being in a car driving to Chicago? 27:00 Well, it was, “I wonder about her and I wonder about her. Will she be there, or is she still around, or what does she look like?” Interviewer: So, you arrive by car and there‟s what, three or four of you? Yes Interviewer: You‟re at the hotel where you‟re going to have the reunion. Do you recall walking into the lobby? Tell us about that. Oh, it was great, and there were people all over that had already gotten there, it was wonderful, you could not believe it. Interviewer: Did you recognize people? Yes, most everybody Interviewer: But you were a little bit older at that time, but not that much really, but you recognized people huh? Yeah, and there was one girl everybody was looking for who was famous, Dotty Schroeder, she was on the cover of a men’s sports magazine back in those years when we played ball, and she was beautiful. She was one that I had roomed with in Kalamazoo, but when she walked into the hotel—everybody was waiting to see when Dotty would come. 28:08 she walked in and everybody just stopped talking and were just looking. She wasn’t anybody that was forward, and she just stood there and was starting to get embarrassed. It was only for a few seconds, but it seemed like a long time. I said, “You’re just as ugly as you always were”, and that cracked everybody up, you know, it was like break the silence, you know, but that started everybody. 53 �Interviewer: Why was she kind of—because I remember from what I‟ve read and the research I‟ve done, always the focus was on the team, it was never about individuals. Not like Mickey Mantle or any of the baseball players that you—the male baseball players. How come she stood out? 29:01 Well, she was always one of the best, and there were others like that, Doris Sams, played with Kalamazoo, and she was another one, a great hitter, a great fielder, and a pitcher, she could pitch too, and she was one of the famous ones, and we had quite a few of those. Interviewer: But for some reason Dotty Schroeder, for you, for all of you, seemed to be the one everyone wanted to see there. Yeah, I think everybody thought, “I wonder what she looks like now?” I don’t know if you ever said it, but you could tell that’s what people were thinking, and she looked the same, she looked the same. Interviewer: I mentioned to you earlier, before the interview, that I‟d been to Flying Tigers reunions, and I‟ve been to reunions where there are these very close knit people from the WWII era. You were there for three days? Yeah 30:01 Interviewer: And you had dinners and what not, and was there talk about liking it so much you want to do this again? Yes, that’s when we decided we would do it every five years, and we did do it every five years for a little while, but then we stopped and we went to two years. Well then it wasn’t too long and now we do it every year. It depends on the location of the reunion, how many girls we get to come. If it’s centrally located we get them from the east and 54 �the west, where if you have to go clear to California, sometimes you don’t get the girls from out east. You know, not everybody can afford to do this. Interviewer: After the first reunion, which was just kind of thrown together because this one woman went through all the hassle, and I know what it‟s like to have to put on one of these things, you made it more formal and you have a board of directors, and you ended up as an association. 31:04 Yes, after that Interviewer: So, then individuals were elected to the board and they would decide, “Okay, we‟re going to have a reunion in Milwaukee”, or we‟re going to have a reunion here or wherever it is. Did you vote on that? A lot of it depended on if somebody volunteered to do it, and you’re talking about a lot of work. You’ve got to be in a place where you have help, and you can’t go to some far out place where you’re the only one. You can’t do it by yourself. Where like going to California there must have been ten or twelve girls out that way, close by, that could help and put on the reunion. We went to Fort Wayne for quite a while and we had many reunions there. You’ve heard of “Run Jane Run”? Interviewer: Yeah, sure When that was coming into town, in Fort Wayne, we’d be part of that, because our girls would get into the golf tournaments and stuff. 32:02 That worked for a lot of years, going to Fort Wayne, but we had people there to do that. Interviewer: After the first reunion, when did it start to become more of a public— when did you start becoming more into the public? When you were in baseball, obviously, you were part of the public, because the public came out to see you and 55 �they wanted your autograph and all that, but then you had this twenty years where you‟re working in the bank and your sister‟s working in the bank, people are married and they‟re having kids and all that, and now you have this reunion, and people have reunions because they want to get together and share the experiences they went through, so that‟s something special. When did you start to realize that the public was starting to, then or even earlier, know that this was something special? I think the public didn’t get involved until we went to Cooperstown. 33:03 We were admitted into Cooperstown, and of course, that became public all over the country, and then that’s when Penny Marshall got a hold of it and said, “Let’s make a movie”. Interviewer: Let‟s back up just a little bit. Did you ever have—I can tell just by talking to you in this interview that you didn‟t exactly toot your own horn and say, “I‟m this and I‟m that”, it‟s just not you, but did people know that you played baseball when you were in the bank, for example? Where there people that come up to you and asked for your autograph? Back then they weren’t asking for autographs. People knew and it wasn’t something you talked about every day, and of course, for a lot of years I was still involved in softball, so I was going to tournaments and going out of town to play ball, but being from Muskegon and living there and having a team there at one time, those people always knew that we played ball with the girls. 34:04 So, that was always a known fact, because we were local. Interviewer: But the change really happened when you got inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame. How did that happen? 56 �I think one of our women started working on that and then when it became known, there were several players that wanted to be inducted all by themselves. They thought they should be the only ones that should be in it, not the rest, well people that were running it didn’t agree with that. They said, “We’ll all go or forget it, we’re not going to work on it”, so it had to be all of us, which was only fair, because whose going to go around and say this one deserves to be there, but not that one. Interviewer: So, they set a date for the formal induction. 35:00 It was going to be at the Baseball Hall of Fame and were you invited, or was it open to anyone that wanted to go, or how did that work out? Well, we were invited by the hall of fame, but that’s still—you had to go there and pay your own expenses, and somebody had to set up all this stuff to have our big banquet there, and of course, we had to start working on places to stay. You’ve been to Cooperstown probably? Interviewer: I have not, but— It’s very small, just a one horse town and they had not one third enough places. Well, we ended up having like seven hundred people, and they couldn’t believe it. They just were amazed, which they have been ever since, because of how popular the whole this is since we’ve been there. 36:01 They get more inquiries about our league than anything and they tell us that themselves. Interviewer: So, you get the invitation that you can go to the induction and you went, right? How did you get there? I flew and I stayed—we didn’t have a place in Cooperstown, we stayed about twenty miles north, and I stayed with three other girls. 57 �Interviewer: What about your sister? She wasn’t able to go at that time. She did not go, but I went there and stayed with friends and then we had to drive back and forth to Cooperstown, but we had to do that anyway. We’ve been invited back since then and we’ve stayed at Syracuse, and drive in to Cooperstown. Interviewer: Okay, tell me about that first day of walking into the Hall of Fame. What was—I saw the movie and I know in the actual movie they used a different room, it wasn‟t the actual place. 37:04 But, give me a visual, show me what you were seeing. Was there an actual ribbon cut and all that kind of thing? Well, tell us about that. To tell you the truth, it was so crowded, there were so many people, you just couldn’t even get up close to see the exhibit and everything. You had to go there another time in order to appreciate what was there, but it was fantastic. The people just were just all over the place and Cooperstown could not believe it. It was like we took them by storm, you know, and they still tell us that. I’ve gone back a couple of times with different groups, eight of us one time and four of us another time, and they always tell us how wonderful it is. That we’re there and that the people just love it and everybody that works in town says the same thing. 38:03 Interviewer: I know it‟s going back a ways, but I‟m trying to get inside of you for a moment. You‟re very modest, and that‟s very obvious from this interview and from the times that we‟ve talked on the phone and what not, but please, just for the sake of this moment—you‟re there, you‟re being inducted as a team, not you alright? What did you feel like? 58 �Oh, I thought it was fantastic, and it’s beyond your imagination. Nothing you would have ever dreamed of. All the years you played ball you didn’t dream of that. Interviewer: Let me ask you what might seem like a stupid question. Why do you think you were inducted, not you, but the team, why were you inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame? Well, I think it got to the point where they had to do something about women in sports, plus the Negro leagues. 39:03 That stuff had been put on hold too long, because the Negro league could say the same thing. We’re, like, in the same boat they’re in and I think that they thought it was time. And I know they’re not sorry at all that they did it, at Cooperstown, because it has really made their place a lot more popular. Interviewer: Did you get a chance to talk to some of the other ball players, the women ball players, about their feelings being inducted into the Hall of Fame? Oh yeah, everybody just was amazed, you just can’t believe it. Interviewer: You keep saying that part and it‟s interesting that you do, because you played the game because you loved the game, and you never thought in your wildest dreams that it would go anywhere beyond that. 40-:02 Never Interviewer: But, now you‟re in the Baseball Hall of Fame, which somebody‟s telling you, whether you want to know it or not, they‟re saying, “This is something really special”. Did it finally dawn on you that you were actually part of something that‟s part of American history? Well, that started the ball rolling and then the movie came along, right from that point on, and once the movie came out that just broke it all and it’s just been wild ever since. 59 �Interviewer: Then the world knew about it, and the world recognized something that you didn‟t even recognize, that you did something extra ordinary with your teammates. Yes, and we hear about it every day now, and we go out and tell the history of our league to different groups, talk to young kids, third graders, little girls that play ball, give autographs, you know, give them—and of course we have our own baseball cards, and we pass out baseball cards. 41:08 Anybody, any age group that we go to, just can’t stop thanking us enough for what we have done for women’s sports. Interviewer: Going back to baseball cards, and I want to get back to this, but did you have baseball cards when you were playing? No, that came about after all this. I can’t tell you what year, but it hasn’t been all that many years, maybe ten or fifteen at the most. Interviewer: What do you think was the overall effect of this league , looking back now, and now you‟ve gone through this period where you‟d played ball and didn‟t realize you were doing something extra ordinary, and now the world is telling you that you did something extra ordinary and it hasn‟t gone to your head I noticed, but let‟s really take this moment. 42:08 What does it mean to you, personally, what does it mean to you, this experience you went through and now you‟ve seen the reaction of the entire world? They made a movie about it. When you were seventeen and going to the movies, the movies were up there, you weren‟t a movie, you were just a seventeen year old. What does it mean to you to look back now? What does it mean to you, this whole experience you went through? 60 �Well, I don’t know if it means a lot in my life. I mean I don’t have any gains by it or anything. I enjoy being popular and that everybody else enjoys it. I like to talk about it and give them all the history that I can give them; I enjoy that part of it. I never sit back and think, “Look at me, I’m something”. 43:04 I’m just glad I’m part of it and can do what I can do for girls in sports today. Interviewer: On a final note, I always ask this of every veteran, if they‟re in battle or not in battle or from that period of time. Looking back, I know that you said thought this interview that you really didn‟t know that it would ever turn out like this, that this would have that kind of positive—and that‟s what it comes down to, a very positive effect on women and little girls and what not, and in your wildest dreams you said you never knew this was going to happen. Can you, somewhere inside of you, can you—is there any glimmer that somewhere back then you knew you were doing something that might turn into something like this? Was there any glimmer at all back then? No, no Interviewer: But, were you that surprised when it happened? 44:04 Yes, I worked many years after all of this and never talked about it with people. But, being local, people knew about it, but it was not something you discussed. You never said, “Look at me, I played ball, I played pro ball”. It was just a part of your life and it was in the past. If they didn’t know about it, no problem, but in Muskegon lots of people knew about it, so it was hard to get away from it, because people who had gone to the ball games still were living. You would, like, go to the store and you’d see fellows that had been going to the ball games, and they’d yell at ya, “Hey”, and they remembered that 61 �you were one of the ones that played ball and that’s before any of this stuff ever came out, and I really enjoyed that with people, or even today with people that are older, but they were young kids then. 45:08 They would say, “I remember, I used to be part of the gang that went there”, so it’s fun. Interviewer: One final question and it‟s going to be a tough one, because I‟m pretty sure you don‟t think in these terms, but can you try on this one? What do you think the legacy of the women‟s baseball is, what‟s it left behind, what‟s the legacy of what you all did? I hope we opened up sports for girls. I hope we helped with the Title IX. I feel like we did, the way sports has taken hold in all the high schools and college, for women, and I think we opened the door, and I think they’ll tell you that, a lot of the other ones that are in pro sports will tell you that. 46:10 I was in Cooperstown on a visit when a lady was there with her grandchildren, and she was part of Title IX from the very beginning. She said, “I’m just amazed to meet you girls. To think that I met you and you were part of that league”. She said, “I don’t believe it”, and here she’s worked on Title Nine all her life and she was just dumb founded that she was introduced to us. I think that’s a great feeling. Interviewer: Well, it‟s been an honor talking with you. Well, thank you Interviewer: Thank you so much. I appreciate it 47:00 62 �63 �64 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_DCook0176BB Title A name given to the resource Cook, Doris (Interview outline and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cook, Doris Description An account of the resource Doris Cook was born in Muskegon, Michigan in 1931. She grew up in a large family and played baseball and other sports. When a women's professional baseball team moved to Muskegon in 1946, her older sister tried out and joined the team. Doris then joined the league after finishing high school in 1949, and played first for the Springfield Sallies, a barnstorming team, and then for the Kalamazoo Lassies and the South Bend Blue Sox, and played through the 1953 season. She initially expected to be an outfielder, but when she had some problems running, she was converted to a pitcher, and was a pitcher throughout her professional career. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women Baseball players--Illinois Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-08-04 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3b98eed957e78aae23ddbcb86e0946f8.m4v e3173f2c6d686c9e5a100a7d5a68fc0f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3e276c6d4e9f7fc07b0ee8c54617d633.pdf 1e09d055abdb248d6048eae7ebcc5049 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans History Project Interviewee’s Name: Mike Corona Born: Racine, Wisconsin, November 9, 1928 Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Library of Congress Veterans History Project Transcribed by: Joan Raymer Interviewer: “Mike if we could begin with your name and where and when were you born?” My name is Michael D. Corona and I was born in the city of Racine, Wisconsin on November 9, 1928 and I was born right in my own house at 1300 Lake Avenue in Racine. Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like?” My early childhood was fine except that when I was four years old I had scarlet fever and I was put back a grade in school and that put me graduating a year behind all the friends that I played ball with, worked out with and went to school with you know, but other than that my childhood was fine. My mother and father were the greatest. :59 Interviewer: “What did your dad do?” My dad worked in a foundry. He was a molder and he was a jobbing molder at Belle City Racine Steel Castings Company, where I, after I graduated from Horlick High School in 1947, I went to work there myself for thirty-two and a half years. Interviewer: “Your mother was a housewife?” My mother was a homemaker, plus she worked at Rainfare, Inc., which made raincoats, pants, clothing and everything and during the war they made a lot of raincoats for the army and I eventually worked, when I was a sophomore and Junior in high school, I worked at Rainfare part time. 1:46 Interviewer: “Did you have brothers and sisters?” I have three other brothers and three sisters and now I’m the only brother that’s left. Three of my brothers have passed away. Interviewer: “Now, you lived in a neighborhood that had a ball park nearby. Tell us about how close it was and what was that ball park anyway?” 2:07 The ball part was the Horlick Athletic Field, which was three and a half blocks south of where I lived. It’s where all the big name teams played; all the high schools used it for football and all of the baseball. In fact they had midget auto racing there, they had wrestling and they had Joe Darcetti, Joe Darcetti was, I don’t know if you remember, he 1 �was Gorgeous George in the wrestling field. He was there, they had big entertainment like Al Schacht the clown of baseball came there and I participated in his event when he was there. It was a good ballpark, but when I—at first when I was a kid it was all wood. The outside of it was all wood and the CC Camp came into town and put it up in brick and it’s all brick now. 3:02 Interviewer: “What is the CC Camp?” From Fort McCoy. Interviewer: “What id CC stand for?” Conservation. Interviewer: “Oh, the Conservation Corps, sure.” The Conservation Corps. yeah. Interviewer: “All right now, I want to start and I don’t want to jump too far into the story because we got some time. Ok? What is your first recollection of going to the ball park, how old were you and did you go just as a spectator, what was your first recollection of going to the ball park?” Well, my first recollection of going to the ballpark is when Horlick High School used to play over there. Football and they use to have a semi-pro league called Metal Parts and they played softball there and when they had the games, we use to sneak through the wooden fence to go into the ballpark. 3:51 When I was about ten years old Elmer Christiansen, who was the caretaker of the ballpark, and I became very good friends and so when all of the ball teams would come in he’d let me know. “Mike” he said, “we got ball teams coming tonight, how about coming and being a batboy”, so when I was ten years old, I was a batboy already. Interviewer: “Wow, now, your parents didn’t mind that you were going out there at night?” No. At that time, it was a lot different than it is now. You didn’t even have to lock your doors at that time. This was in the forties right after the war you know. 4:36 Interviewer: “So, can you remember your first experience as a batboy?” My first experience, as a batboy is when the Kansas City Monarchs came into town and guess who was the pitcher? Satchel Paige. Satchel Paige came in there and I was the batboy for the Kansas City Monarchs and they played the Racine Blues. Interviewer: “Can you remember anything about the game?” Not very much, but it was a good game. Interviewer: “What were your duties as a batboy?” 2 �My duties as a batboy was to make sure that all the bats were in place. When the batter got done hitting, I made sure I got the bat out of the way in case there was a play at home plate and then I shagged balls for the guys and get their gloves, give them a towel, give them a glass of water, the major things of being a batboy. 5:29 Interviewer: “Any other team before the women came to town, let’s put it that way, what other teams were you the batboy for? What kinds of events were you the batboy for?” Just the semi-pro baseball teams that use to play there and then Metal Parts once and a while. I would go over there and watch them play because that was my game, fast pitch, and I only played a little baseball, but I played a lot of fast pitch. 6:00 Interviewer: “Did you have any advance notice about these women playing baseball? How did that all come about for you?” Well, only through the sports pages and Jim O’Brian, who was a good editor. Keith Briim, who was the sports—him and Don Black, who was the personnel director at Western Publishing Company, had the biggest involvement in getting the Racine Belles there. They had to go to Chicago to meet with Wrigley to get them to come to Racine. 6:34 Interviewer: “So, when they first came to town, were you automatically the batboy? How did that all come about?” I asked Johnny Gottselig, who was the manager, if I could be the batboy because when they came into town they stayed and they had usual practice before the season started and I went over and talked to Johnny Gottselig, who was the manager, and asked him if I could be the batboy because I had an assistant whose sister was on the ball team, Mary Nesbitt, my assistant, Buddy who helped me when I was playing. 7:09 Interviewer: “How old were you when they came to town?” Fourteen. Interviewer: “So you were only fourteen years old?” Yes, fourteen. Interviewer: “Since you already knew the lay of the land, you had already been a batboy there for a while, so it wasn’t that unusual for you to just walk up to the manager and say, “I got experience here”, how did you sell him on the idea?” Elmer helped a lot too and Leo Murphy who eventually became one of the managers of the Belles was a catcher in one of the minor league teams I played in Racine and he was a good friend of mine because I use to get his glove for him and all that and he helped me out with Mr. Gottselig. 7:54 3 �Interviewer: “You came with a resume.” I came with a resume. Interviewer: “What I want to try to get here is, and maybe it didn’t exist, but you’re doing the batboy for the men’s teams ok. Women didn’t ordinarily play baseball like that. These were good players, you’re fourteen years old and you’ve seen some good players, you saw Satchel Paige, can you remember your first game with the women?” Oh ya, oh ya, because Sophie, I think she stole four bases that day and Joanne Winter pitched a one hitter and Mary Nesbitt came in the next day and pitched a no hitter. You don’t forget things like that, you don’t. Too bad Joanne isn’t around any more, but Mary Nesbitt is still alive and she lives in Florida and we keep in contact with her when we go down to Florida. You take some of these girls like Maddy English, Edy Perlick, Claira Schillace; they could have played in any men’s league. 8:55 Then we had a girl from Racine who was a first baseman, Margie Danhauser, and I knew her very well. Interviewer: “Were there any big differences between being a batboy for the men’s team as opposed to the women’s team?” The duties were practically the same. I made sure that everything was clear, bats were all put in order and everything. The only thing different between the men and the women is when the women had to slide they got burned and man they had to lift up that skirt and it was different than the men, the men wore long pants and the outfits the girls wore were delicate you know. 9:38 Interviewer: “Your job didn’t have anything to do with taking care of the strawberries or any of that?” No, no, that was Mrs. Anderson’s job, Mary Anderson. Interviewer: “How about the behavior of the men compared to the behavior of the women? Any differences there, when they come off, maybe they didn’t like the way they hit the ball or they got struck out, let’s get an inside look here.” The men were a little different; they throw the bats you know. If they miss the ball, if they strike out they say damn it or they swear a little bit you know, but the women, they took it in stride and it was a different ball game. We had pitchers in the men’s that really threw BB’s, they were fast and they were good ball players and the women were good too, but don’t forget your mound was only thirty-eight feet from home plate and when they pitched they threw BB’s too and it was a different game, a different game between the men and the women. 10:45 Interviewer: “How were the fans?” The fans were great you know, but at first they didn’t come, who would want to come? First we had Metal Parts, which was a good semi-pro men’s team and they took a lot of 4 �the fans away from the—but when the Belles started winning and then the fans came and the fans would really pack that place on a Sunday afternoon double header was kind of different because it was chilly sometimes and sometimes you couldn’t even see the game because the foundry was right there and if we would get a southwest wind and they were smelting iron, you could hardly see the ball players on the field, but it was a good thing. 11:32 Interviewer: “Now, you got a perspective of the game that even the players didn’t get and the fans didn’t get. Were there any particular plays that you saw that—you were experienced, you knew baseball already, you’d see how the pros—were there any particular plays that you saw that you just went “WOW, that’s amazing, how’d she do that?” Any particular—either throwing the ball or catching somebody out, any of those kind of remarkable things?” Well, you never had two better—ended appealing on a double play—English to Sophie, to Margy Danhauser you know. The double play was the best play that the women made and Edy Perlick had a wonderful arm in left field and Clara had a good arm in center because she covered a lot of center field because Horlick field wasn’t small, it was a big ball park because they used that for baseball and it was a long way out to that fence. 12:35 some of those girls could hit that ball, but one thing about the Racine Belles, they had three good outfielders in Perlick, Clara Schillace and Eleanor Dapkus, they had three good outfielders. Interviewer: “What other teams did you see playing the Belles? They would have other ones coming in?” You would have the South Bend Blue Sox, you had the Kenosha Comets and you had the Rockford Peaches and Reno Giocenti, who was an Umpire from Racine, when he would work a game in Rockford, he would ask me if I would like to go along, so I would go to Rockford and be the batboy for the Racine Belles in Rockford and also, the Kenosha Comets you know. Sometimes I had to take the interurban to go to Kenosha because they played their games at Lakefront Stadium, which is no longer there, but it was so close, everything was so close. The only team I didn’t get to go to their ballpark was the South Bend Blue Sox, but the Comets, the Rockford Peaches and the Belles were the three parks I participated in. 13:40 Interviewer: “Now, you’re a young little fourteen year old with a bunch of cute girls running around, did any of them think you were their favorite or something? Did you have somebody that you thought maybe was your sweetheart even though she was not your sweetheart?” Not in that way, but we liked, you know Clara, she was a nice Italian girl you know and Horlick field was in “little Italy” and when the Belles would play there, Racine Steel or Belle city would have their freight cars—they would part them right over center field and all the guys from the block would go sit on top of the boxcar and watch the game you know and after the game they would all go see Clara. She was probably the most favored 5 �one of all the Racine Belles that played, but all of the girls were wonderful. Joanne Winters, Sophie and then you had Choo Choo Hickson who was funny as hell. 14:43 Interviewer: “Why was she funny as hell?” She was always clowning around a little bit. When they were all in Racine, they lived in Racine, they all came to Ace Grille, which was a restaurant downtown and that where you would always find all the girls and they had a pool room downstairs and a couple of them would go down and shoot pool, but it was wonderful. They were all good girls. Interviewer: “Now, every group has a clown and somebody who’s—tell us about a few of the personalities if you will. From your perspective tell us about some personalities.” 15:17 There wasn’t that much to tell about it frankly. They were all ladies and actually like in the movie—in the movie that was Hollywood. You didn’t see occasions like Spaghetti and them going out and dancing. These girls were well respected and they were invited to the country clubs and they did a lot of community work and Johnson’s Wax took care of them—made sure that they were well represented. Like I say, the movie was all Hollywood and I wasn’t the batboy then. 16:01 Interviewer: “Any particular game or games that really stands out for you? Something that you just went WOW.” The championship game, the championship game between Rockford and the Belles. It was like it was in the movie, but it didn’t happen that way you know. Interviewer: “Tell us how it happened, start us off from the beginning and kind of work us through the game.” The game was well played and it ended up four to three and there was no home run like they had in the movie with Geena Davis dropping the ball. It was a game and the score was four to three. It was just a regular championship game played like champions and like I say, any of them—any of those girls could have made any men’s team in the country. They had arms and they were good arms too and I’ll tell you. 16:56 Interviewer: “Now you spent how long being the batboy for Racine?” Just the Belles, just the one year 1943 because then I went—I became a freshman and I started playing basketball, softball and all that. In fact, in 1944 I tried out –they had the St. Louis Cardinals had a clinic at Horlick Field and I tried out and I went two weeks, I was there for two weeks, but I just didn’t have it to make—to be a major leaguer you know, but I loved the game and you can ask my wife—I played a lot of ball. Sometimes I played—because I played a lot of fast pitch and we were the state champions for five years in a row and we use to play sixty-five games a year and a lot of traveling. 17:51 Sometimes I would go away on the weekend and come home and go right to work, but I love my wife, she really watched me. 6 �Interviewer: “this is going back a little way and maybe at the time you didn’t think of it as much, but when did you find out that the league was actually ending? Do you remember that at all?” That was 1954 and just through the sports writing because I was already working and we already had a couple of children and it was just too bad that they had to—but you could see it dying a slow death because baseball was coming back now and guys like DiMaggio and all them were all trying to hit the ball and you could see it was dying, but I was glad it was Kalamazoo because we were there just a couple of years ago when they showed the last game in 1954 when they ended the season. 18:56 Interviewer: “So, when you stopped being a batboy like you say, you were in school and eventually to work, were you still a fan? Did you still go to the games?” Oh yes, I would go to the women’s games. Interviewer: “Let’s talk about that then. You were mentioning that things had kind of died out, but let’s go back—now you’re in the stands and you’re watching as a fan or did they still let you down there?” No, I went as a fan. Elmer was still there and I would see him when I would go there and his sister Edna was the general manager and she would let me in. I watched a lot of the Belles play until I graduated from high school and then I kind of fell off a little bit, but I ran into Irene Hickson and she was telling me, “how come you don’t join the association?” I didn’t even know I could join because now I’m classified as league personnel, so I signed a card and my wife and I have been going now since 1991 to the reunion and it’s a great thing. 20:09 Recall the girls and see them all you know. Interviewer: “They remember you?” Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Interviewer: “I want to get back to when you started to see that things were winding down. Was it that the crowds weren’t there or what was it?” They only played in Racine until 1950. 1950 was the last year they played in Racine and then, I think, the belles became the Grand Rapids Belles or or something, but they only played until 1950 and you could see in 1948 and 1947 that they were dying down because the crowds—metal Parts was in a pretty good league and they were there you know. 21:00 Interviewer: “Did you have any, I know this isn’t fair because it was a long, long time ago, when you saw in the paper that the league was ending, did you have any reactions or any thought that it was too bad or anything at all that you can remember?” It was a sad thing for the league to disband, but you have to remember that these girls did something that nobody ever did. They brought back—you know guys were all over there 7 �in the army over in the war and when they came home they had something to go to. I never had a chance to be in the army because I was too young and all that, but when these girls would be there, these guys were really happy you know. “ Hey, that’s somewhere to go, let’s go over to Horlick Field, a double header today”, but it was just too bad that the league didn’t go over. Then the—then Milwaukee got a ball team, the Braves and they had other things to occupy their time. Like I say, the league ended—the Racine Belles disbanded in 1950. 22:05 Interviewer: “Now I’ve asked this question and we’ve all asked this question to each one of the women, they played ball, they enjoyed ball and then afterwards when it ended there was this sadness, but they kind of went on with their lives, but at some point they kind of recognized that they did something special. Did that ever happen to you? Was there a point in your life where you realized, not necessarily you, but they had done something pretty amazing besides just playing good baseball? Was there any point where you just kind of thought back that that was kind of an amazing period of time? 22:38 Amazing because I was the first batboy for the Racine Belles and that’s what I tell people that I was probably the only boy that was a batboy for the women’s teams when they originated in 1943, but after I got out of high school, I did a lot. I was active in the Democratic party, I was active in the unions, retirees groups and on Labor Day, bowling. I had a—in fact now I even got a bowling league named after me, I’m in the Racine Bowling Hall of Fame, and I was occupied as my wife will tell you. I was never home. 23:28 Interviewer: “At what point did you actually—either it was called to your attention or you just thought about it, that you were part of something that was something pretty amazing?” Well, the only thing I can say is that I never got any pictures of me when I was the batboy. Somebody’s got pictures of me in California, but we’ve never made contact with the person, but other than that it was wonderful to be with the girls and they were great. Interviewer: “Now, what was your reaction to hearing that they were going to be put into the Baseball Hall of Fame?” I was just wondering why they didn’t put the batboys in. You know, they put the girls in because we were out there, but they were out there all the time you know. They played all them games you know and they worked hard and they deserved to have some recognition in the Hall of Fame. 24:28 We enjoyed it when we went to Cooperstown when they had the reunion in Syracuse and we all went to Cooperstown. It was just too bad that—they tried to get me into the Hall of Fame because I was a league personnel and I was involved for sixty games that they played at home and I never missed a game. For the championship game, when I was a batboy, I usde to wear a pair of jeans and a nice white tee shirt, but for the championship game Don Black said, “Mike, you got to have a uniform”, so they sent me to one of the men’s stores and I bought a nice pair of brown 8 �pants and a yellow shirt so I would look just like the Racine Belles on the day of the championship game. 25:22 That was one of the biggest—because at that time you know things were tough. Interviewer: “I’ve asked the women, and I’m sure you have heard this one before, what did you think of the movie?” It was Hollywood. It was Hollywood the movie was Hollywood. It was nice to see something done and they got some recognition from it and Penny Marshall did a very good job on it, but some of the stuff they had in there the girls never did because like I said, they were ladies. They never had drinking parties riding on a bus. Tom Hanks— you wouldn’t see Johnny Gottselig come into the locker room and go to the bathroom. That was just Hollywood. 26:16 Interviewer: “There were some scenes, for example when Davis walks into the ballpark and then playing and all that, some of the girls have said that that was kind of—at least it showed the overall story.” The overall picture, but on the end there with the presentation at the Hall of Fame, when Gina Davis walks in and sees her sister and some of the girls that are here now participated in the movie and it was a good movie and we watch it every chance we can and sometimes—we got a tape of it, and like I say, it was mostly all Hollywood. 27:00 The batboy and no crying in baseball. Interviewer: “Now I’ll ask you a question I ask everyone of them as well, and as you said, you did a lot after that. You can look back and certainly even now you got bowling and you have a successful family and all that, but I want you to go inside right now and being a batboy at that time, did that have any effect on the person that you became, the person that you are now? 27:33 That experience of going to the ballpark, seeing Satchel Paige, seeing these women do these things did that have an effect on who you are today?” No, no, no, because when I got involved at work my possibilities of being a president were nothing at all, I had a family to support, I did my work, I worked every day, I never missed a day of work, I loved my family, I loved my wife and I did a lot. I did a lot for the city of Racine, I was a commissioner on a parks and recreation for twenty-four years, I was labor person of the year, I was a delegate for the Democratic national convention in 1976 and 1980, I got into the oval office with Jimmy Carter, so what more can you accomplish other than being a good husband, a good father and a great grandfather. 28:43 Interviewer: “thank you very much, that was a great interview. 9 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_MCorona Title A name given to the resource Corona, Mike (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Corona, Mike Description An account of the resource Mike Corona was born in Racine, Wisconsin on November 9, 1928. He grew up in the Racine area playing baseball with his friends. At the age of ten, because of his friendship with the caretaker of the Horlick Athletic Field, he started playing as a batboy for men's semi-pro teams. When the All American Girls League came to Racine, he became a batboy working under Racine manager, Johnny Gottselig and his team. Corona worked as batboy only in 1943 and then went off to college and pursued other career endeavors. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Olson, Gordon (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Wisconsin Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-09-26 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5fc7576f3fb5e0a71ab05c0f3063f034.m4v 379449f22faeb4adf6c42ee5e20bfc5c https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e28077674b090e59d908f0d40babe7ff.pdf 9190ccb5a6f681870a51c9ca30bccb01 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW AUDREY HAINE DANIELS, Pitcher Women in Baseball Born: Winnipeg, Canada May 5, 1927 Resides: Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 5, 2010, Detroit, Michigan at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion. Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, November 16, 2010 Interviewer: “Audrey, let’s start with your full name and where and when were you born?” My maiden name is Audrey May Haine. I was born in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada on May 5, 1927. No, May 9th, I told you I would make some mistakes, meant to say 5/9/27. Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like?” I suppose it was not much different than any of the others at that time. I had a very good childhood, it was a—my father really wasn’t there most of the time and when he was he just upset the whole thing, do you know what I mean? We had kind of a bumpy road there for a while, but we got out and played. We played baseball around the street with the other kids. 1:28 Interviewer: “Where did you grow up? Was it on land or in the city?” It was in the city of Winnipeg. Interviewer: “So, did you live in an apartment?” We had a house. Interviewer: “All right, and then you went to school, did you walk to school?” Yes we walked to school; we weren’t too far from school. Interviewer: “All right, how did you get involved with playing baseball?” 1 �With the kids in the street, I mean we always played baseball. We didn’t have to stop too often to let cars go by because where I lived in those days there weren’t too many cars. The doctor went by occasionally and we didn’t really have a good bat or a good balls. Our balls were usually half ripped, but I don’t think it ever bothered us, we were out there playing and had a great time. Interviewer: “It was neighborhood kids? Did you ever play kids in other neighborhoods? 2:30 No Interviewer: “So it was just pretty much by yourselves. How was school for you? Did you like school?” Interviewer: Oh, I liked school very much. Interviewer: “You got into high school I take it?” Yes I did Interviewer: “Did you have any idea what you wanted to do at that stage of your life?” I wanted to be a nurse. Interviewer: “How did the opportunity to become a baseball player come along?” I knew I had no opportunity to be a nurse for sure, and baseball was just something that I grew up with. I didn’t just say, “I want to be a baseball player”, I just grew up with it and I played for a team called the St. Anthony Brown Birds when I was fifteen or something like that and I was a pretty good pitcher. Interviewer: “Now, is this softball or baseball?” 2 �Softball, so I moved up to the next bracket and I played with them for a year and had a very good year. Interviewer: “Now, this is just for fun and you’re not getting paid or anything like that?” No, absolutely not, this is just teams that were put together and you had managers and everything that went with it, uniforms. 3:48 Interviewer: “All girls?” Yes, all girls Interviewer: “When did you first hear about the professional league?” Well, I got a call from a girl who played in the league the first year and her name was Dotty Hunter, she called and she said that a scout had seen me play and wanted her to get in touch with me and tell me all about the league and see if I would be interested. Interviewer: “Had you heard about it before?” No, I had never heard about the league before, so I invited Dotty over to my home and she told us, my mother and myself and my sister probably, all about the league and that it was run on very high standards and that the players lived in private homes with good families and that we got paid for playing and when on the road we had real money and stayed in the best hotels. So, that sounded pretty good to me 4:46 Interviewer: “What was your mother’s reaction?” Well, she didn’t react, and she certainly didn’t say, “no, you’re not doing that”, no she didn’t, she always let us have opportunities when they came up. Interviewer: “How old were you at that time?” Fifteen 3 �Interviewer: “So, they were offering you to play in the league at fifteen?” I was fifteen when I got my contract and I turned sixteen that following summer and then when I played and got to leave, I had just turned seventeen.. Interviewer: “What was your first experience? Did you go for tryouts?” I never went to tryouts, and being young; I assumed I was on the team. Interviewer: “Wow! Where did you go, to Peoria?” 5:46 First of all Dottie Hunter came and explained the whole thing to my mother and me finally said I could go. I had never been more than one hundred miles from home or ordered or eaten a meal out, so I was just about as green as the grass we were going to play on, you know. I had never had any experience being away, so it was a pretty exciting and nerve-wracking experience for me to join the other players from western Canada and get on the train in Winnipeg and head for Chicago. 6:48 Interviewer: “You had never been on a train before?” No, I hadn’t Interviewer: “How was the trip?” Well, it was nerve-wracking for me you know, you want to do the right thing and everything is new to you and I don’t think I slept much that first night on that train and the first sun-up I looked out and saw the wonderful rolling hills of Wisconsin go by and it is a memory etched in my mind forever, those wonderful rolling hills and green grass. Everything I did-- I was a little bit nervous about everything and when we had breakfast on the train I just didn’t even know what to order because I had never been out. Seeing the waiter with this white towel over one arm and a silver coffee pot in the other had, I 4 �was just baffled by it all. 8:05 It was just over whelming to me, but we headed out and I guess most of the girls going were in the same position as I was. Interviewer: “Had you met some of them at that point and you were talking?” Oh yeah, I had met some of them and there might have been one from the team that I was on going as well, but we headed up to Chicago and we were met there and they put us in a hotel. Interviewer: “Did you meet the chaperone? Did you have a chaperone that met you?” 8:40 No, personnel from the league met us because at that time we weren’t assigned a chaperone. You were assigned a chaperone when you were on a team. So, we arrived and they put us up in a hotel and I think it was on the seventeenth floor. Alright now, wow! Interviewer: “Did you have a room mate in your hotel room?” Yes Interviewer: “Also from Canada?” Yes, I think it was the player I had played with before. Then of course there was the spring training the first day out there. Interviewer: “What was that like coming out?” It was—I was really nervous and self-conscious because I didn’t have all those clothes and mind you there were others in the same bracket that I was, but I didn’t have the clothes that they had. I remember on a hot day I had this pleated woolen skirt on and I was just about melting, but you met these girls and they were from all over the U.S. and Canada and you realized that they were in much the same spot at I was. 9:59 Spring 5 �training went well and much like in the movie, they put up a list of who made what and where. I was assigned to the “Minneapolis Millerettes” and it was a new team in the league that year. Unfortunately the game did not go over well there because the field where we played was too large for the type of game we played and it was just something they weren’t ready for, so during the season, I guess halfway through the season, that whole team went to Fort Wayne, Indiana where it was very successful. 10:44 I played for Fort Wayne and our manager was Bill Wambsganns, who made the only unassisted triple play in the world series in 1920, I believe, and he was great. So, I played for Fort Wayne for two years I guess, Interviewer: “What was your—going back to your first team, you actually played for half the season though?” Yes I did, we played half the season and the other half we were a road team. We were called the “orphans”. Interviewer: “Did your nervousness start to go away once you started playing?” Yes I think it did a little bit, but I was always tense you know, you don’t get over that in a week or two. 11:35 Interviewer: “Plus you were very young.” Exactly, I had just turned seventeen. Interviewer: “How did you rate yourself compared to the other players? Did you feel like you were a good baseball player?” Well, I always felt like I was never as good as the others, but I was a good pitcher, yes I was Interviewer: “Is that what you trained to be, a pitcher?” 6 �Yes Interviewer: “Did you play any other position?” Never Interviewer: “Same with me, I couldn’t play any other positions and that’s why they gave me pitching.” That’s probably the way it was with me. I couldn’t have made out it any other position. Interviewer: “The first manager you had, did you learn very much from him? One of the things I have asked the girls is that they knew how to play baseball, but the managers gave them new tricks and techniques they didn’t know about.” My first manager was—I can’t remember his name, but I don’t think he really taught the girls too much. We were all so basically green that it was a big job to—but we gradually got pretty darn good. 12:49 Interviewer: “Were you thinking at that stage the this was going to be your career, that you were going to be a professional baseball player?” No, absolutely not, no Interviewer: “This is going to sound like a stupid question, but what was the point, why did you do it then?” Because it was fun and I got paid for it, I mean, it was something I loved to do and I got paid for it quite well and I was able to send money home to my mother. If you’re a ball player and you’re on a team and you’re doing ok, you’re not leaving it. Interviewer: “So, what was the fort Wayne experience like?” 13:29 It was lovely, we had a lot of Canadians on that team and I played with them for about two years and Bill Wambsganns was a terrific guy. 7 �Interviewer: “Did he treat you like a woman or treat you like a ball player?” Oh, I think he treated us like a ball player with consideration. We had chaperones of course, who really took over that part of the job. Interviewer: “You didn’t have to go through the charm school or any of that?” I did, don’t you know? Interviewer: “Well, let’s talk about that. You were a green seventeen year old.” I thought maybe you would recognize that I had been to charm school. Yes, we learned how to pour teas, how to sit properly, stand properly, how to walk with a book on your head straight and tall, and we learned all those essential things. I think they only had the charm school for one year as I recall, but we were all so bright we picked everything up in one year. 14:45 Interviewer: “What was a typical day like during the season, you got up at a certain time?” Yup, got up and if we were home, probably had a practice scheduled and of course the afternoon or evening baseball game and we had to be in the home or in our rooms when we were on the road, two hours after the game. On the road we did—we went to a movie or just walked around the city or things like that. Interviewer: “Well, this is a new experience for you and you’re completely outside of the home, what were you thinking? You make friends and there were a lot of Canadians on that team, so we felt a bond you know, so we sort of strengthened each other. 15:46 Interviewer: “there were older girls there too?” 8 �They were mostly older than I was, but they were maybe eighteen, nineteen and even twenty. Interviewer: “What was your social life like during the Fort Wayne period?” Well, very often we were invited out to dinner by some of the families, they were really very good to us and I think that was probably our only social events that we got to go to, otherwise we were pretty well secluded from—I mean it was practice in the afternoon, game at night, so you didn’t have too much time to get into trouble, but we tried hard. Interviewer: “What were the road trips like?” The road trips were a lot of fun, but also very tiring, we played every day and double headers on Sundays and got up and got on that—at first each team didn’t have a bus, so that first year we traveled by train and after that each team got their own bus. We spent the time by doing crossword puzzles, reading a book and singing the songs of , popular songs of those days. 17:04 Interviewer: “Any particular memorable games during the Fort Wayne experience?” Fort Wayne? No, I don’t think so or maybe that was the year—that might have been the year I pitched a no hitter. We were playing against Kenosha, it was a very drizzly day, kind of foggy, and I was pitching against Helen Fox, who was also a Canadian girl and very good, and we both pitched a no hitter because of course, the fog and the mist, I mean we were just great. Interviewer: “Once the season was over with you went back to Canada, you went back home?” 9 �Yes I did, went back to Winnipeg and back to my job. They always took me—I worked for the Hudson Bay Company and they always just took me back and I left in the spring and came back in the fall. 17:57 Interviewer: “They knew you were a ball player?” Yes, of course Interviewer: “Were you kind of a local celebrity?” Well I was kind of because I had done so well and my picture was in the paper practically after every game. I must sound like I’m kind of—but anyway it was because I had made the record in strikeouts and stuff like that. Yeah, people treated you very good. Interviewer: “So, Fort Wayne you did for two years and then what happened after that?” I was traded to Grand Rapids, to the Grand Rapids Chicks. I think I played with them a year and a half and then I went to—Grand Rapids Chicks, I can’t remember where after the Chicks. Interviewer: “We’ll go there later. How was your experience with the Grand Rapids Chicks?” Great, all the experiences were great. You know, we were all young, we were just looking for new friends and we did find them and you would always stay with a few Canadians because you were Canadian. I always had about four or five Canadians that went to have lunch together or whatever. The Californians probably stuck together and that’s the way it went. 19:23 Interviewer: “Any memorable games when you were with the Chicks?” 10 �No, I had some very good games, but none of them stand out except that no- hitter that I pitched. I did pitch another no hitter during my days. Interviewer: “How were the teams that you played against?” Oh, they were very good, we had some absolutely marvelous players, and they were just outstanding you know. When we first started playing, people came out to laugh—“oh my gosh, girl baseball players”, but we showed them that we could play just as well as men and gradually then the game did change into the regular baseball. 20:18 Interviewer: “So, you started out pitching underhand?” Yes, and then side arm and then overhand. Interviewer: “How was that transition for you?” It went pretty well. When they transferred from the regular, from the size of baseball that we were using to the regular hardball size, they sent us baseballs for us to work on before we got to the spring training and Doris Barr, who lived on the same street as I did, just per chance, she knew someone who allowed us to practice in the armory where we had a lot of space and that’s what we did. 21:08 Interviewer: “So by the time you got to spring training, you already had been practicing throwing overhand?” Right Interviewer: “Was that a difficult transition for you though?” Not really, I don’t recall it as being, if I had to pitch overhand I would have found that difficult. 11 �Interviewer: “Did your record change? You were pitching very well in the beginning with the larger ball, but was there any difference in terms of your record?” I can’t tell you that, I just really—it’s not a secret or anything, I just don’t remember. Interviewer: “Nobody complained anyway and said you were a lousy pitcher now?” No, they didn’t fire me or anything. 21:52 Interviewer: “What did you think of the uniform?” It didn’t matter what kind of uniform they would have given us, we would have put it on. We were playing baseball and we were so thrilled to be there, but there was a lot of laughing etc. of the uniforms, especially by fans in the first year, but I think most of us liked to play in that. I cannot speak for all of them and I know that some didn’t. Interviewer: “I guess what I’m trying to get at is, I know a lot of them did adjustments. One of you said that when she first started wearing it and when she went out to catch a ball she got most of her hands in her dress as opposed to getting the ball. Did you alter your uniform at all?” I altered mine because coming through on the pitch. I had to pin a large portion of the dress onto the front so it wouldn’t go into that material. 22:52 Interviewer: “If you were on the bus and you needed to get off the bus could you wear blue jeans?” No, no, you had to have a dress or skirt on and no, we were never allowed to get off at stops, so we followed the rules. Interviewer: “The playing field it’s self changed, the distance and whatnot. How did you adjust to that?” 12 �Yes it did and yes, Philip Wrigley wanted the game to be faster and more like baseball, so the pitchers mound was lengthened and the base paths were lengthened and now we were pitching either side arm, I believe started side arm, and then side arm and overhand, so those were the changes that were made and you could of course in regular softball you can’t lead off now, so we could do everything that the major leagues could do. 24:03 Interviewer: “Then you were traded again?” Yes, then I was traded to oh, gosh, the Peoria Red Wings. Interviewer: “How was that experience?” Very nice and I liked that team very much. We had a very good team. Interviewer: “Any favorites of the three?” I think Fort Wayne, I think because of all the Canadians on that team. Interviewer: “Any particular hitter that you did not want to go up against?” I know there were some that didn’t want to go up against me because I was wild at times. Of course there were hitters that I didn’t want to pitch against. I mean they were good hitters. 24:58 Interviewer: “By the time you got through several years now, were you looking at this as something that was a lot of fun and not something you were going to do for the rest of your life?” Oh no, no, no Interviewer: “What did you want to do?” I wanted to get married and I had been going with my husband, previously my boyfriend, for six years or so, so we eventually got married. 13 �Interviewer: “I guess that’s one of the questions that I have. How did you meet him?” Oh, we lived on the same block and on the same street. Interviewer: “Oh, from childhood?” Yeah, we never dated anyone else and now we have been married for sixty-one years. Interviewer: “Wow! I didn’t know that.” We’re going to stick with it. 26:02 Interviewer: “You’re finally sure of each other.” Yeah, the trial’s over. Interviewer: “Alright, so you knew him from childhood and you went off to play, you came back and he was?” He was there waiting. Actually we generally played catch most of the time. Walking down the street, he’d go backwards and I’m be going forward pitching to him, but that’s what we did.” Interviewer: “Did he come to any of your games?” I think he was able to get to—let’s see, one of the seasons, where was I at that time? He came down to see me play. Interviewer: “I understand he has a special picture he carries around with him?” He does Interviewer: “What is that picture?” It’s of me in my uniform and he’s carried it around for all the years we’ve known—when we got the picture it was probably in the third year or something of my ball days and yes, 14 �he still has it. 27:12 He’s very proud of it and I’m proud of the picture and proud of him, maybe proud of him and then proud of the picture. Interviewer: “What brought your baseball career to an end?” Getting married, what could you do? I mean, yes we got married and I did play for a year after that, yes. Interviewer: “Then what, you got married and had a child as well, but did you go to work of any kind? Were you still working?” No, and then we were living in the states, we had moved from Canada and I played home games for the Rockford Peaches. Interviewer: “But then, you made a decision not to play anymore? The league still went on didn’t it?” 28:11 Well, I made the decision because we had family and then another family and you know, we added on and it was impossible for me to play, but I think family like probably just became more important. Interviewer: “Did you miss it?” I think I probably did, no doubt about that. Interviewer: “Some of the girls never even talked about their baseball career and their kids didn’t even know about it. How about you?” Same thing, because people made fun of you, like you told them you played and you played men’s rules and they go and say,”yeah”, you know, “yeah, right”, so you felt embarrassed, so there came a time when you didn’t tell anybody. 29:02 Interviewer: “How did that change because you came to a certain point in your life—you’re coming to reunions for example?” 15 �Absolutely Interviewer: “Was it the movie that changed things?” I think so and I think the movie helped a great deal, right. Interviewer: “How did you hear about the movie to begin with?” We had meetings and talked about this movie and that there was a possibility because of the Players Association, we have a Players Association, and all news gets into the newsletter and people have a chance to study it and that’s how it came about. Interviewer: “Now, the association formally began in? I forgot what year it was, do you remember?” I do not. Interviewer: “Were you one of the first members?” Oh yeah, I was one of the first, I mean in that group. Interviewer: “Right, we talked with someone who actually put together the original database and contacted all of you and said, “we’re forming this association”. 30:05 After all those that have gone by and not talking about it, why did you want to get involved with an association of ex ball players?” Of course you’re—it’s in you and of course you’ve met all these young women and everything. The girls you played with, I mean they were all important to us and they were like family to us. After all we lived with them all summer and played ball and kept in touch with them and Christmas cards and they were and still are a very, very important part of our life. Interviewer: “What did you think of the movie? 16 �Well, I think we liked the movie because we saw that it was pretty well accurate and we were happy with Madonna’s part in it. I mean, it wasn’t what Madonna was popular for at that time, so we were happy with the movie. 31:13 I think we all really liked it, I did anyway. Interviewer: “Did it change your attitude about talking about the baseball period?” Yeah, it did, definitely, oh definitely because now people saw it and they were able to see that it was pretty good and these girls could really play. Interviewer: “In terms of reaction, people actually treat you almost like movie stars because of that movie.” Yes they do. Interviewer: “It rubs off on me, I told my students--I’m a professor at the university, and I tell my students that I’m doing this documentary and they’re excited because I get a chance to meet you.” It’s amazing you know, we can’t understand it, but now we’re used to it because it’s been going on year after year and they come and, “oh my gosh, can I have your autograph?” Come on. 32:15 Interviewer: “You seem amused by it.” I am amused by it you know, by the way they are just lined up with a hat to sign or a baseball glove or a card or whatever. Interviewer: “Why do you think people react that way?” Well, I think it was something different that turned out ok. It was pleasing to watch, it was on the up and up. 17 �Interviewer: “Now, you had a full life, you’ve had a family and you’ve had a lot of other experiences, and how does that few years, how does that fit into the scheme of things in your life? You obviously loved it.” You’re asking me to compare that? Interviewer: “Yes, somewhat.” My baseball life with my family life?” 33:08 Interviewer: “Well, I’m not asking you for a comparison, if you prefer this or prefer that, just where does it fit in terms of—some of the girls said, for example, it was their first experience of really becoming a woman and having a more broad understanding of life as opposed to being in a small town. Was it a like changing experience for you at all?” It taught me a lot. It taught me to be considerate, it taught me quite a few things you know. Interviewer: “At the very least you know how to pour tea, right?” Listen, I was one of them that learned how to pour tea and if you ever need someone to pour tea at some of your social events. Interviewer: “I’m going to ask you about putting a book on your head and see if you can still do that or not.” I honestly—yes, we learned all that and I thought you would notice it. 34:12 Interviewer: “Looking back on it now you said you’re amused by how so many people just get so excited about all this kind of thing and I had asked you why you think people are so excited about it and you said because it was something unique and it’s got to be more than that. It’s—young girls especially look up to you.” 18 �Yes they do, they really do. I mean, even now if we go out to eat or if somebody knows that I played in the league, they are just all mushy. We get better service, we give them a card and it just fixes everything up. Interviewer: “I want to ask you a more philosophical question, it may be a tough one. Looking back on that experience at that time, what do you think the All American Girls Baseball League accomplished? What do you think they—I mean they were a baseball team, there are lots of baseball teams.” 35:15 No, we accomplished more than playing baseball, we showed that we were as equal as boys. Coming into sports and giving the women’s sports the same consideration that you’re giving the boys and we did you know, chapter nine [Title IX] was passed for equal opportunity in sports and I think we accomplished a great deal and we’re proud of what we did, we’re very proud of it. If you’ve been through—I’m sure you’ve been through and seen the girls and that and yes, we’re proud of what we did. Interviewer: “Let me ask you a real stupid question. Why do you come to the reunions?” Because I love all of my friends and it’s so exciting. You come to see your friends, absolutely; because they’re like more than just friends and some of them you probably think are your family you know. Yes, that’s why we all come and I’m sure that you might get a similar answer from many. 36:27 Interviewer: “One of the things about reunions that I’ve learned, because I got to reunions of my fathers, for example, because of his military history. You get to know people that you didn’t get to know when you were playing ball. Did you meet some of the players that you never knew?” 19 �Yes, absolutely, that’s true—that you never got to meet. You played against them, but then you were a player and they were a player and you just hoped you got the batter of them, but other than that, you come for your love of the game and love of the people you played with. Interviewer: “Did you have any involvement in the production of the film like some of the women did?” 37:16 I happened to be an extra. I did get into the movie as an extra and it was great and I got paid. Interviewer: “What scene were you in?” Ah, well when they were talking about the Canadians there was a scene there and they were singing a song about the Canadians and there were about three or four Canadians and they had us standing at the back and we were Canadians, Irish ones and Swedes, so there were a few Canadians in that. Then I was in another spot too, but you know, you have to be quick to see that. Interviewer: “Were you in Cooperstown film at all?” Yes and that’s in Cooperstown and that’s in the scene where we’re being inducted into the Hall of Fame. 38:18 Interviewer: “Now, did you go to the induction?” Absolutely Interviewer: “What was that like?” Incredible, incredible, I mean it’s all incredible you know, something that other people have never done. I’m sure other people have done more important things, but this was special. 20 �Interviewer: “What was your reaction to the whole league being inducted into the Hall of Fame?” It’s fabulous, I mean we all figured we had it coming and we deserved it so to speak. We played hard and a lot of people enjoyed our games and why not? 39:05 Interviewer: “My favorite scene in the whole movie, and I actually use it in my classes, is the scene between Tom Hanks and Geena Davis where he says—“she said it got too hard.” Yes, that’s one of my favorites. Interviewer: “That brings tears to my eyes whenever I watch that.” It’s hard yes, something like everything is hard you know. Yes, that’s one of my favorite spots. Interviewer: “He says, “of course it’s hard, if it was easy everybody could do it”, and obviously they couldn’t because only you guys could do it.” Right Interviewer: “Which is great. Well good, I’ve enjoyed myself and I hope you have survived through this.” Yeah, well I did my best. Interviewer: “Thank you so much.” 21 �22 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_ADaniels Title A name given to the resource Daniels, Audrey (Interview transcript and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dearfield, Norma Description An account of the resource Audrey Daniels was born in Winnipeg, Manitoba, in 1927. She grew up playing ball with the boys in the neighborhood, and then joined a girls' team when she was fifteen. She was later spotted by Dotty Hunter, who had played in the All American league's first season and encouraged her to try out. She joined the league in 1944, and was assigned initially to the Minneapolis Millerettes, who then moved to Fort Wayne, and she later played for Grand Rapids, South Bend and Rockford. She was a successful pitcher who threw several no-hitters over the course of her career. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-08-07 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c5b6c020c55bc76f9c0961283bbd2dcf.mp4 82a3387a6491c93b57b3692ed2d69462 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/eb05af25d56f4d5b7cad1aab799a3731.pdf 41f571904a625f2aa8ad601621ddcffb PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW BUD DANIELS REGARDING AUDREY HAINE DANIELS Women in Baseball Born: Resides: Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 5, 2010, Detroit, MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion. Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, May 12, 2011 Interviewer: “Lets begin with your full name and where and when were you born?” My first name is Austin, but I’m Bud, Bud Daniels and I was born in Winnipeg like Audrey—grew up there. I spent the whole early part of my life in Winnipeg, even up through the time and all the years that Audrey was playing baseball. You asked interesting questions about how she got—she’s extremely modest, extremely so because—we lived on the same street and in the same block. She lived at 729 College and I lived at 628, but as kids, we just grew up together and sports were a common interest. I played hockey and she played baseball, so we had a lot of—sports was our common ground. 30:26 She first started out playing with the St. Anthony Brown Birds and it was her first organized baseball and I saw her from starting there and, of course, she went to the St. Fidel Tigerettes. She was in the senior women’s league in Winnipeg at sixteen and she was playing with these women that were probably in their mid twenties. They were the prime seniors fast pitch softball players in Winnipeg, but she was just sixteen when she tried out with the St. Fidel Tigerettes in 1943. 31:03 She wound up pitching for the Tigerettes and they won the seniors women’s championship that year. Now, they played seven inning games, double headers twice a week, I think, these seven inning double headers. She said she had her picture in the paper a lot and she did and there are many games where she had nineteen, twenty or twenty-one strike outs 1 �in a seven inning game, which was just incredible, and that’s how she got picked up by the league. In the year they won the championship, 1943, was the best of seven championships and she pitched all seven games and won four and lost three and they were all extremely close games. But, it was from that year she had with The St. Fidel Tigerettes, which was the senior women’s fast pitch league that the scouts saw her. It wasn’t just that she knew Dolly Hunter, the scouts had actually seen her pitch and that’s really how she got rolling into the pros. 32:16 Interviewer: “This is probably a tough question, but when did it turn from neighbor, friend to “I think I want to marry that woman”?” Gosh, it was a slow process because it started out that I would never miss one of her games in 1942 when she played with the Brown Birds, then 1943 before she went away, but we still we were a pair through 1944, I mean I didn’t date any other girls, I wasn’t interested, but we were just generally interested in each other and grew that way, grew that way. 33:02 I never got to see then play until 1948, I never saw her play. I man, I couldn’t afford—I was in the engineering business in Winnipeg, I was serving in an apprenticeship, so I couldn’t get away, but that last year, we were getting married in November of 1948, and July of 1948 I went down to see them play and I was aghast at the baseball. I remember her—all the great games she had as a softball pitcher, this wasn’t softball, this was hardball let me tell you, and they really played—I couldn’t believe the level. I use to go to see the northern league hardball, as we called it, northern league baseball up there, professional ball, and those women played every bit as good as those northern league players. I was amazed at how good they were. It was really an awakening to me because I followed the papers and I would send the clips of different 2 �games, but it’s not like being there and seeing it. 34:09 When you see it you really have to believe it. I just saw some outstanding plays and what not. We also had a very good friend, a lifetime friend that we had—she played in the league and Audrey referred to her not by that, but it was Dottie Key, Dottie Ferguson, and they stood up for us when we got married, we stood up for them and you were talking about—did you have any batter that was, you know, but she didn’t say anything about Dottie, but Dottie, she was her very best friend, our best friend. When Audrey pitched for Peoria against Rockford, Dottie was one—she would make Audrey pitch to her and she would lean way over the plate purposely to get hit because she was one of the top base stealers in the league. 35:02 So, that’s how—she would purposely tell us that she was going to get on base. Audrey was her best friend, but she would lean way over the plate to get hit, because she couldn’t get a hit on her, but she would get hit and she’d get on base and once she got on there was a pretty good chance she was going to steal it. 1948 was the first year I saw them play and it was just an incredible experience. I guess I’m one of the few that’s still around that actually saw these women play, but they were outstanding. Interviewer: “When did you start carrying the picture in the wallet? When did that start?” Actually I got that and I started carrying that the year we got married. 1948, the summer of 1948, when I was down there, and this was a team picture, just of herself, they took individual pictures of the players and I have this picture of her and this picture has been in my wallet for sixty-two years, and that’s the condition of it. 36:30 Every day for sixty-two years, that’s the picture. That’s gone through about eight or ten wallets, but I think just the quality of that picture from 1948 is outstanding. 3 �Interviewer: “Beautiful, at the last reunion you were off by yourself and we just got talking and that’s when you pulled that out and I said I had to get you on camera with that picture and now we’ve got it, which is great, which is great. Let me ask you the same question I asked Audrey. What do you make of all this “whoop la la” about all of this?” 37:18 Well you know, when you went back earlier they didn’t talk about it. Our kids never knew anything about it, never talked about it and it was just like it never even existed. But, in 1982 when they had their first reunion in Chicago that opened the whole thing wide open. From there on, each reunion, there became more interest in this talk about the book or the movie or something else and it’s absolutely taken off. Now, today, I’ll bet you when we get home there are going to be at least four or five pieces of mail requesting autographs. There is not a week that goes by that she doesn’t get mail-requesting autographs, information about somebody who’s doing an essay for school, it’s endless. 38:17 I said it’s hard to believe, I know a couple of months ago I mailed twenty-one pieces of mail and I said, “How can this be after all these years?” But, that’s what happens—the media—through the movie, there’s not—I haven’t run across anybody who hasn’t seen this movie. Like I said, we go to a restaurant or something—we know different ones that know her and they come and see her and talk about it and then they bring other waitresses over to meet this woman, it just goes on and on and it’s wonderful. 39:06 I said to Audrey many times, I said, “when you have the opportunity to talk to somebody you should tell them about this, don’t keep it a secret. You’re not bragging or anything, you’re sharing a wonderful moment”. I said, “that’s what you have to do, you have to allow other people access to all this”, so she does now and it’s wonderful. I said, 4 �“share it, share it, don’t take it with you, share it and let as many people as possible enjoy it”. Interviewer: “That’s wonderful and thank you so much.” 5 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_BDaniels Title A name given to the resource Daniels, Bud (Interview transcript and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Daniels, Bud Description An account of the resource Bud Daniels grew up in Winnipeg, Manitoba, just down the street from his future wife, Audrey Haine. Both were active in sports, and when Audrey played organized softball while they were teenagers, he would attend every game. They stayed in touch after she was recruited into the AAGPBL, and married in 1948. During this time Audrey would play for the Minneapolis Millerettes, Fort Wayne Daisies, Grand Rapids Chicks, Peoria Redwings, and Rockford Peaches. In addition to telling his side of their story, he discusses both the quality of play he saw, and the popularity of the league and their players over the past twenty years. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-08-05 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bd0f453c3a40866bec3cf03c51eeafff.m4v 3812f027512cfff457e7406e59d022bb https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a3231b8061e3eadca4e02ed2cc105680.pdf 1fa05fc89baa431e119c9a2c0f5900d5 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW NORMA DEARFIELD, Second Base Women in Baseball Born: 1928 in McKeesport, Pennsylvania Resides: White Oak, Pennsylvania Interviewed by: James Smither, PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 7, 2010, Detroit, MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion. Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, October 13, 2010 Interviewer: “Can you start by giving us a little bit of background on yourself? To begin with, where and when were you born?” I was born in McKeesport, Pennsylvania to Mr. And Mrs. James Whitney. There were five of us in our family and I was the second oldest. Interviewer: “In what year were you born?” I was born in 1928. Interviewer: “What did your family do for a living then?” Dad worked on the railroad and my mother stayed at home and was a homemaker and took care of all of us. 1:34 Interviewer: “Now with the railroad, was your father able to keep his job then during the depression?” He did keep his job, but he was on what they called the extra board and he went out when they called him and he was one of his family members that, of the men, that still really kept their job and worked. They shared with each other, food that they had gotten from some of the places that gave out certain foods, so they shared with each other and made it through. 2:08 Interviewer: “How did you get involved in sports?” 1 �Well, when I was very young I always had a tennis ball, always, and I was throwing it into the house or anywhere and catching it. I don’t know, I just liked playing ball and the Christmas when I was about twelve years old, I asked for a baseball glove and my mother told me that girls don’t get baseball gloves and I said, “then I don’t want anything for Christmas, if I can’t have a glove, I don’t want anything”, so needless to say, I did have this glove and it was the same glove I played--my dad bought me a good glove at the time which surprised me, but it was the same glove that I still have today ad that I played in the league with. We didn’t have organized sports at that time in our city, so we just made up our own teams and played other cities next to us. 3:17 We played each other and my dad was out coach and I just played until I was probably eighteen or so and after high school I just got a job and I was working and I saw a little piece in the paper, just a little tiny article, for tryouts in McKeesport, Pennsylvania for the All American Girls Professional Baseball League. Well, I never had heard about it, I didn’t know anything about it, so I called the girls on our team and I asked them, “let’s go out and see what this is all about”, so when we got there seventy-five to a hundred girls were there from Ohio, West Virginia and different places, so we got out there and we had to bat, field, infield, outfield, slide into base, just everything they wanted us to do we had to do, so when it was over they just said that they would send us a letter saying whether we made it or not. 4:30 I had gotten a letter to South Bend, myself and another girl, so then my dad and my mother knew nothing about this league and they didn’t know if they wanted me to go by myself, so my dad said, “I’ll go with you and I’ll stay for a few days to find out what this is all about”. So, being that he worked on a railroad we had a pass and off we went to Chicago to go on the train. He had a sister that lived in Gary, Indiana, so he stayed with 2 �her you know, and would come back where we were on the field and stayed with me for three days and talked with whoever he had to talk with and felt comfortable leaving. 5:20 Then I had to tryout there. Davie Bancroft was the one that was doing it the day that I was trying out, was coaching us. I can remember we had to go out on a field at the position that we played and I had never had a baseball hit to me, I had softballs and the field was shorter and the balls were bigger, so the first time I fielded the ball, I did field it and I turned my head a little and he pointed the bat at me and said, “if you want to play in this league you can break your nose or knock your teeth out, but don’t turn your head”. 6:13 Now I’m more nervous and I thought I better do what I know that I can do, so I did, so then I had to do everything that they expected of us to do you know and then when that time was over eventually, I was told that I was going to stay and I was put on the team. Interviewer: “So when you got to South Bend and you were doing the tryout, were there a lot of other girls trying out at the same time or just you?” Oh yeah, there were many of them, I don’t know how many, but there were many of them all trying out. Interviewer: “Did you have any sense of where they were from or how far they had come to do this?” Not really, at the time I didn’t know them and I really didn’t know anybody, I was just—I felt so alone, but you make good friends with them real fast and most of them were from—a lot of them that I was friends with were from the states around here. 7:13 Interviewer: “But basically you were just going on with your life in Pennsylvania, what kind of a job did you have when you were there?” 3 �After school I got a job at the J.C. Murphy Co. warehouse and I worked there just filling orders for the stores and things. Interviewer: “The league that you were playing in, was it a women’s league or a girls league? What was that?” Back home? It was girls they were all girls. Interviewer: “Did you have people actually come to watch the games or did you just go and play?” Oh yeah, the local people, we had not a lot, but they knew when we were playing and they gathered around. We went to different cities close to us and played other teams because we had to organize our own games ahead of time and schedule the women that played. 8:16 We played from the time I started at sixteen I guess until I was called to go to this league. Interviewer: “What year was it that you joined the league?” 1949 Interviewer: “So now you have gotten the call and you tried out. Probably most of those girls trying out at South Bend didn’t make the team, they had a lot of them.” A lot of them didn’t I guess. Interviewer: “Did they tell you right there whether you made the team or not?” Yes, at the end of the few days that I was there. That’s when they told us if we were placed or not and everyday we tried out and had to do something different and different things you know. Interviewer: “Could you hit as well as field?” 4 �I did pretty good, I had a couple triples, but I never had a home run. I was a fast runner and I could steal bases. I batted second all the time and most of the time if I’d gone on from hitting I knew I was going to get to second or third. 9:22 Interviewer: “I’m going to go back here. You signed up with the South Bend club at the start of the season or was the season already going?” At the start and I left in, I think it was May, and I didn’t come home until September. I stayed right there the whole time. Interviewer: “Did they have any kind of spring training before the games started or did you just start playing games?” Well, we had some spring training and that’s—I can’t remember what field we tried out at, but I was over in South Bend for spring training before we started. Interviewer: “So, they were doing their training just right there. They weren’t off in some other location that year?” Right Interviewer: “When you joined the team that year, were most of the players veteran players who had been there for a while or did they have a lot of new ones?” 10:16 Most of them were veteran players who had been there over the years, but that was during spring training and then I was put on the touring team which were all new players. We toured the country, more or less, to keep baseball alive. Interviewer: “The league had two touring teams didn’t they and they would travel around together and play each other?” Yes, the Chicago Colleens and the Springfield Sallies. 5 �Interviewer: “Which one were you on?” The Chicago Colleens Interviewer: The Chicago Colleens, all right, they were all basically newer or younger players who were doing this?” Some were—we had one or two that were fifteen or sixteen and at that time I was eighteen, nineteen. Interviewer: “If it was 1949, probably twenty, twenty one. So, you were a little bit older then?” 11:19 Older than some of them, but a lot were around my age or even older. Interviewer: “Do you remember where you went, some of the places or states you went to?” We were in like thirty-eight states. We went through the Midwest and out as far as Texas, Oklahoma, all in through some of the western states, South Carolina and Georgia, almost all of them. I have little pennants from every state and I had one wall filled with every city that we played in because we played in several cities in one state when we would get there. We traveled all night. Interviewer: “How were you getting around?” By bus, it was like a school bus and not a very comfortable one, but we would travel short distances some of the time and sometimes as long as two or three hundred miles to the next city. 12:21 Interviewer: “All right now, what kind of reception did you get in the towns that you played in?” 6 �Oh, a lot, there were a lot of people and they were very receptive to us. They had a lot— I’m trying to think, several times we had several thousand people there for the games. Interviewer: “Are there any particular places you went that stand out in your mind and you went to a lot?” Not too many because we really didn’t have time to do a lot of sightseeing or anything like that, but we had some time during the day, but most of the time it was just play ball, take the bus to the next town, go to bed because you didn’t sleep good because you traveled all night and then you had to get to the Laundromat to wash the clothes that you had. You only had a little small suitcase and you weren’t allowed to take much of anything. 13:32 Interviewer: “This version of the league, or this part of it, how much of the sort of rules and regulations on dress or conduct or things like that, how much of that applied to you?” About the same as what was in the league. We were not allowed to wear shorts or slacks on the street. We had to have skirts on. We could change in the bus, just pull them up and take the shorts off and put a skirt on to go out. When I was in spring training I had to go to charm school to learn how to sit and conduct yourself sitting, walking, drinking coffee and things like that. 14:28 Interviewer: “Was this new to you or just new to some of the other girls, having particular rules like that to follow? No, pretty much at home we had to “yes ma’am”, “no ma’am”, we didn’t get up from the table unless we asked to be excused and I still did that with my kids today, so it was easy to do. 7 �Interviewer: “Did they have rules about socializing or anything else like that? If you were riding around on the bus all the time you didn’t need to worry about it.” We didn’t have time to—like the girls in the league, they had more time to go out in the evening, in the daytime rather and socialize, but we didn’t have very much time to socialize. We were busy just playing ball. Every night we played a game including Sunday and sometimes two on Sunday. 15:24 Interviewer: “What sort of people did you have in your audience, who would come to watch these games?” There were children and all sorts of people that were with them. A couple of servicemen, you would see them in the crowd, but most of them were just families and people that wanted to come and watch because they advertised ahead of time, so they knew. They had our pictures in store windows and different things before we got there. 16:32 Interviewer: “Now, when you came into a town, did they ever do anything for you or any promotional events or did you have to show up places for different things?” Not too much, not too much because like I said, we were—by the time we would come in most of us would try to get an hour or two of sleep because you had to try to sleep on the bus sitting up on the straight seat. We had some free time that we could walk down the street and look things a little bit over, but not too much, it was mostly all-Interviewer: “Alright now, you were playing in skirts right?” Right Interviewer: “You had these skirts etc. and you were a runner and a base stealer, so did you have problems with “Strawberries” and all that?” Yes I did, several times on the side from sliding, stove fingers. 17:30 8 �Interviewer: “ You’re playing on whatever playing field is available too, so were some of them in not so good shape?” Some of them were not real smooth, but we managed and we played on them. Interviewer: “Did the group of you traveling together, did you kind of make a good set of friends there, being together with these women all the time?” Oh yeah, even though we were two teams, we were all very close and we still are today. Interviewer: “Did you play the full season?” Yeah, I played every game except toward the end of the season I got hit in the eye with an elbow, actually my manager’s elbow, and I had double vision for two weeks, so I didn’t play. Then I went back on and I played every game, so after that I played, which resulted in an eye injury later and it stopped my playing ball. 18:37 Interviewer: “How did you get a manager’s elbow in your eye?” We were—a bunch of us kind of fooling around and it just swung around or something, I think it was his elbow or something and so that—that’s the only time I didn’t play. Interviewer: “But then you did not come back for the next season?” Well, what happened was between the two seasons I went back to work at Murphy company, at my job, and my sister worked there also, so I was coming home, got off the bus and was walking down the street to home and I got terrific pain in my eye and I grabbed it, that same eye that I had—it was like a very sharp pain, so I just pulled my eyelid down because I thought maybe I got something in my eye and I said, ok, everything’s ok”, and we went on until I got in the house. Shortly after I thought, “I can’t see out of this eye”, so I would hold my good eye and I’d look at my sister of my mother or my dad and I said, “daddy, I can’t see too much out of this eye, and I had a sharp pain 9 �in it. I don’t know what’s wrong, but I can’t see very good”. 20:02 The next day he took me to an eye doctor and he looked in it and said, “there’s something there, but I’m not sure, I think you need to see a surgeon”, so he took me to an eye surgeon the next day and he looked in my eye and he said, “you have a detached retina”. I didn’t know what a detached retina was and I said, “What is that?” He said, “that means you’re going right from here to the hospital”. I said, “oh no, I can’t” and I was dating my husband at that time and he played “roller hockey’, so he had a game in Ohio and his birthday was coming up and this was on a Wednesday that I was at the doctor and I said, “I can’t go, I’ll come back on Monday”, and he said, “you’ll be operated on Friday, this is very serious and we’ve got to get this taken care of”, so I was operated on Friday and I laid thirty three days in a hospital with both eyes bandaged, they had to tell me when to open my mouth and feed me, I couldn’t move, my bed was flat, my head was hurting, my dad tried to get a little thin air pillow and they said absolutely not. 21:24 Back then you laid all that time, so the last day I was ready to come home and the doctor sat on the bed beside me, at the time I knew I was going to go to south Bend up in the league, so he said, “your dad tells me that you play baseball?”, and I said, “yeah and I’m excited because this year I’m going up in the league”, and he said, “I just hate to tell you this, but you’re not going to be able to play baseball any more”, and I said, “oh yeah, I’m going to, I have to you know”, and he said, “If you do you’ll have, if it detaches again, little or no eyesight in that eye”. 22:18 Naturally my parents did not allow me to go and that kind of ended my baseball career, which was very devastating. I really, really wanted to go especially up in the lake you know, even though I enjoyed where I was, everything we did. Then I had to wear those big pin point glasses with the little dot for about two 10 �months after and I was led around like a—my dad had to build a box so my plate would sit level and I wasn’t allowed to—if I sneezed I had to hold my head. I had a whole list of do’s and don’ts. So, I guess at that time, so now when I go for new glasses my doctor said, “Norma, if you had that detached retina today you would be playing ball in two weeks because they glue it”, so that was the end of my career, but I’ve come to all the reunions and stayed in touch with all the girls. 23:16 Interviewer: “Did you stay in touch with the girls immediately after you left or did you connect after the organization formed?” That’s part of it, I mostly was with the girls that I knew from the two teams, but the more I came to the reunions I got to know everybody, so we just talk to anybody that comes past. Interviewer: “Once you stopped having to wear pin point glasses and all that kind of thing, did you go get married then or what did you do?” Shortly after, well no, we dated for a couple of years and after that he and my dad came out a couple places to see me while we were dating. We played in Springfield, Ohio and one place in Pennsylvania and I just—yeah, we dated and then after three years of that we ended up getting married and I had four children and now I have ten grandchildren and three great grandsons. 24:30 Interviewer: “In this case your husband knew you played ball, and did your family know that, did your friends know that because a lot of players just went off and nobody knew they had ever done that?” Well, I don’t think anybody like in the city or anything like that really knew. My family knew, in fact when we were in Pennsylvania and Ohio a couple of them came there to see 11 �us play, but it wasn’t until after the movie that kind of—even myself I just went off, got married, raised kids and I never worked after that and it just went on until I got a letter one day to come to the film if I wanted to, so I went and I played in the movie. I played second base at the end of the movie and other than that it was just life after baseball. 25:34 Interviewer: “Aside from getting an elbow in your eye, how do you think that experience affected you? Did it change you at all or did you take anything with it?” With what? Interviewer: “The experience of playing in the league for that year.” You mean—I’m not understanding. Interviewer: “Well, basically the experience of having played professional baseball for a year and going around with those teams and that kind of thing. Do you think that had any kind of a lasting effect on you and did you learn something from it or gain something from it that stayed with you?” Well, you were just—when you were finished playing ball that was just the end of it. It seemed like—it didn’t do anything after that and like I said, I got married shortly after and just went on. It was just a lot of friendship that we made and I’ve kept them over the years and I still keep in close contact with several of them mostly talking on the phone. 26:52 Interviewer: “It got sort of into the seventies and the eighties and you had things like Title IX coming in and you actually had an effort to recruit girls into organized sports and this kind of thing, did you pay much attention to that?” 12 �Yes, I coached girls softball and was on the board of directors of the McKeesport Board Association which then was starting to be organized sports, but I coached girls softball for several years until—I even had to take the children with me, not when they were little I didn’t get involved, but when they started getting bigger I got involved in sports and like I said, I did coach girls softball and then stayed involved for a while in this organization with them trying to get other fields because they didn’t have a lot for girls, back in our town it was all boys. 27:56 Where I tried out at our local park in McKeesport the park had a lot of property there we worked hard trying to—we wanted to have a whole complex like four fields maybe and concession stands and that and we got a lot of people to donate equipment and everything, but you know they—it just wouldn’t go, they just blocked us in different ways. I guess it was going to cost them a lot of money, the city, but we had a lot of volunteers, but it didn’t work out. 28:43 then baseball just—you know you got older and kind of—I mean I’m still very, I mean I never miss a game from the Pirates not seeing them, and I mean I do see several and I’ll watch them and they will say, “are you still watching them Pittsburgh Pirates?” and I say, “well, yeah”, it’s the only team we have, so I have to root them on. 29:03 Interviewer: “ I’m afraid I’ve been a Cubs fan all my life, so I know something about following futility.” You know what, when my daughter—my son-in law is an oral surgeon and he did his oral surgery residency down at Charleston South Carolina and I would go down there and the only two teams I could see was the Cubs or the Atlanta Braves, so I was—I have 13 �relatives in Ohio and Indiana, so I’m kind of like a Cub fan also because that’s what I watched when I was down there and that’s what they would watch. 29:54 Interviewer: “At least the Pirates have won a few world series in the past century, so—to think back to the year you spent traveling around with the Colleens, are there particular people who stand out in your memory? Are there particularly good friends that you made and spent a lot of time with?” There are several that I have stayed real close with, Toni Palermo, she was a shortstop, so she and I had a combination there and there are several that I have kept in contact with at, Jane Moffet, in fact I was up in New Jersey three weeks ago for—they were honoring her for her life more or less, before baseball, during baseball and also her eightieth birthday party, so there were about eight girls up there and they were the ones that were real close here at reunions. I do, I stay in touch with a lot of them yet. 30:59 Interviewer: “Are there anything that happened, any particular moments in any of those games that stand out in your mind?” One game stands out in my memory, we were losing and two were on base and I got a triple and won the game more or less, so you have memories like that and you kind of clear the bases, but I wasn’t real big, so I wasn’t strong enough to get some of the home runs, but I did have a couple triples, but it was mostly singles and doubles and things like that. 31:42 Interviewer: “Were you a good defensive player?” Yes, I felt I was Interviewer: “So, you could turn a double play?” Yes and Toni was really good at that too. 14 �Interviewer: “She’s a dynamic character, we talked to her last year some. All right, anything you would like to add to the record here before we close out the interview?” No, just that the memories have lasted forever playing ball. Like I said, we lost the part we weren’t together, but you never forgot those days and the friends even before the movie we were still friends with some of them and we still are. It’s sad when every year we’re losing so many of them now, but I still keep pretty active. I go to aerobics four days a week, I most days for an hour, I don’t know how far I walk, but I walk for about an hour and I do a lot of volunteer work taking older people to their doctors appointments and helping kids do thing, so I stay pretty active. 33:05 Interviewer: “That’s pretty impressive and thank you very much for coming and talking to us.” Well, I enjoyed it. : 15 �16 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_NDearfield Title A name given to the resource Dearfield, Norma (Interview transcript and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dearfield, Norma Description An account of the resource Norma Dearfield was born in McKeesport, Pennsylvania in 1928. She talked her parents into giving her a baseball glove for Christmas when she was twelve, and played on local girls' teams while in high school. She saw an ad in the newspaper for tryouts for the All Americans in the spring of 1949, and played all that summer for the Chicago Colleens on their barnstorming tour. She played second base, batted second and stole a lot of bases. An eye injury at the end of the season ended her professional career, but she later coached girls' softball teams in her home town. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Illinois Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-08-05 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a1f0d8924cc4ac4b737e6cba28c3dbe0.mp4 aadf31649def986beaca16c9b1f5b0d3 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e6d13f4c9fa4eedeba1919ed7f9903a7.pdf 6f12354613c0b869974d8ba337e56589 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW JERRE DENOBLE Women in Baseball Born: June 11, 1923 Resides: Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 8, 2010, Detroit, MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion. Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, April 7, 2011 Interviewer: “Now Jerre, can you start by telling us a little bit of background on yourself? To begin with, where and when were you born?” I was born in 1923, June 11 in Oakland, California, at 131 Chestnut Street. I even remember the address. Interviewer: “What did your family do for a living?” My dad was a truck driver and my mom was a stay at home mom because in those days women didn’t have jobs, they stayed home and had babies. Interviewer: “Did your father keep his job during the depression?” No, there were three express companies, Mayflower, Bekins and my dad’s was Market Street Express and they lost business, so he had to go to driving--become a teamster and drive for other companies. Interviewer: “But he still had work?” Oh yeah, we were very fortunate in that respect. We didn’t have money, you know, he would save tires and cut the rubber and sew it to our shoes, so we could get around, you know. 16:57 Interviewer: “When did you start playing sports?” 1 �I guess since I was able to walk. My daddy—we had two boys, but he made a tomboy out of me. My brothers were into music and stuff like that, so I started playing ball from the time I was a tiny thing I guess. I’d say about ten or somewhere around there. Interviewer: “Whom were you playing with?” My Daddy--we had a long driveway and boy, he’d pepper that ball in and I’d—he’d say, “it’s all right, if you’re going to learn to play ball you got to catch them”. Interviewer: “When you were playing, did you have a regular baseball or a softball?” Well, he had a—I guess it was kind of like a softball. Interviewer: “Did you have a glove?” Ah huh, I had a five-finger Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth and it had one web. 18:00 Interviewer: “When did you start to play on teams?” I was about—we had to lie about my age—I was about fourteen and you’re supposed to be sixteen and the other girls, they were about ten or eleven years older than myself. I played for a while with just the amateurs, and then the manager, Ollie Fisher from J.D. Craig’s, he was a world champ three times in a row, and he picked me up and I started playing with him and from then on we just kept going—industrial leagues and about four nights a week is what we played, different teams you know. 18:45 Interviewer: “What position did you play?” Well, in softball I was playing second base, but when I converted over to hardball, the girls complained about bruises in their hands, they were a little too hard, I ended up in left field and it didn’t do too much damage except hit the home plate. 2 �Interviewer: “Ok, now when you were playing softball, how far would you travel? Did you stay in California? City to city, Visalia, down south, wherever and whoever, yah Interviewer: “What kind of audiences did you have?” Fairly good, and of course most of the out of town ones were like country, and you didn’t have a big attendance because the population was less you know. When we played the cities like Alameda or San Francisco, we even played against men down at the Oakland ballpark. 19:50 We had a great pitcher, her name was Willie Turner, a little blonde bomber from Stockton or some place like that. We had real good pitchers in those days, Betty Evans from Portland, Oregon. Interviewer: “Now, were you playing in the leagues during World War II?” Yeah doing that and working sixteen-hour shift in the Glass House. We were making those big floats for the Submarines and stuff like that you know. Between playing ball and working, we didn’t get much rest. Interviewer: “I wouldn’t think so.” Three or four hours sleep a day. Interviewer: “How much were they paying you?” At the Glass House? Interviewer: “Did they pay you for the softball?” Well, I got hired in to play ball, but I wasn’t tall enough to work there. You had to be five feet ten and weigh over a hundred pounds, which I wasn’t, so they hired me in to play ball, but I worked my way in. 20:55 Taught myself, watched the girls pack and how they flip the bottles and when they realized I could do it they built pallets and then 3 �they started lowering the—and hiring people my height, but we were the first Guinea Pigs, you might call it, because the men had all those jobs and when the war broke out they took the men out, so they had to replace them with women and women aren’t as tall as men, so they had to make all these adjustments you know. We had fourteen departments down there and I worked twelve of the fourteen, all different jobs. Interviewer: “Now, did you like working there? Did you enjoy working there?” Yeah, to a point—it was rough, but I liked almost all the jobs, yeah. 21:47 I spent forty years there, so—I eventually worked up to a supervisor’s job also. They made me a supervisor over the teamsters and the warehouse men and that was the toughest thing I ever did in my life. 22:01 You didn’t boss them, you asked them, but I made a lot of friends and they’re still my friends. In fact, they’re better friends to me than the women. Interviewer: “When you were playing softball, did you play on military bases or did you entertain soldiers?” Yes, I also coached the women’s WAVES in Alameda. Interviewer: “Did you play for audiences on the bases?” No, it was mostly practice and I guess they played out of town because I didn’t travel with them because I had a job, but when they were stationed in for a month or whatever because they were stationed in Hawaii and all different places, so it was hard to travel with them. Interviewer: “When you were playing with your softball teams, did you ever go outside of California?” 22:59 No, we stayed within the county, Alameda County mostly. Interviewer: “How did you wind up with the All American?” 4 �Well, I didn’t know a thing about it, but Dottie—Dorothy Stolze, I called her Dottie, I grew up with her. She lived about three houses up from me and we played softball on the same team. How she found out, I don’t know, but she approached me one day and said, “Jerre, they’re going to have tryouts in San Francisco and they’re going to send a scout out. Let’s go over and tryout for baseball”, and I said, “I don’t know if I want to”. I had a job and I had a lot of years and built up seniority that I didn’t want to lose, but she said, “Let’s give it a try, we made out basics”, so I did, I went over with her and there were like five hundred gals that were there. 24:03 They hit balls to us and grounders and fly balls over our shoulder and did about everything they could do, but have us stand on our heads. They didn’t say nothing to us and about two weeks, I guess, later I got a letter from Max Carey stating to go get a Passport and my birth certificate, and that we would be receiving a ticket for a flight, to Havana, Cuba. That’s how we found out we were going to play ball. When we got to Cuba, we went to the training and it was quite a conversion. Conversion over from softball-- base lengths, pitching and everything different, but I liked it and we adjusted, but I was sent to Grand Rapids, Michigan. 24:57 Interviewer: “Lets back up a little bit. Tell me a little bit more about spring training in Cuba. When you got the invitation to go play in the league, did you agree right away or did you have to think about it?” No, I just went to it. Interviewer: “I guess you told me before we started the interview that you weren’t sure you wanted to go.” I was hesitant, but once—if fact I didn’t really want to go and my supervisor he told me, “Jerre”, he said, “We’ll give you a leave of absence, you won’t lose any time on the job, 5 �we’ll stop your time and then when you come back we’ll start it again”, and I said, “I don’t know”, and he said, “it’s a chance of a lifetime you’ll probably never ever get again”, so I went. That’s the reason that I went, because they said they wouldn’t give me my seniority back, which they did in the end. 25:50 Interviewer: “Now, what was it like to play in Cuba?” It was fun. They called us Amazons because the girls over there are very, very frail, very feminine and short. Here we are throwing like sixteen-pound bowling balls and they throw that little tiny thing, and we’re out there playing ball like mad—they just didn’t believe it. They would follow us around, oh my goodness. I got pictures you should see, I mean it was like playing a game. They would sit up there in the bleachers and follow us outside the gate—it was fun. In fact, on April 29th, when we got there, I think it was a day or two later, we were in the Sevilla Biltmore, which is right across from the presidents palace, and they, Castro, tried to assassinate that president, Batista, and we heard these firecrackers going off and everything, and we thought they were celebrating the fact that Americans were there, that we were there to play ball, and we found out it was the revolution they were trying to get started and they were trying to get rid of that president, but it was exciting. That’s all I can say. 27:05 Interviewer: “So you complete that, and then where do you go next?” Do you mean from Cuba? Interviewer: “Yes” We came over here and there’s a lot of difference you know—I don’t know—I don’t really know what to say. Interviewer: “Well, did you go to Grand Rapids?” 6 �Yeah, we went to Grand Rapids when we got back for there. I had one heck of a night my first night, I didn’t miss hardly a thing. We went twelve, I think it was twelve, innings, and I got a clipping on that, twelve innings, no runs nothing. I don’t remember how I got on, but anyway, I scored the one and only run and it showed me coming across the plate with a big old grin across my face. I really don’t remember if I got a hit or what, but anyhow, I made the run. 28:01 Then I got a phone call the next morning and I thought I had a hell of a nice game, and I got a phone call the next morning that I had to report to Peoria. I said, “What did I do wrong?” I had a good night you know, and I still didn’t know why I was traded. I believe they started with their team in Peoria in 1946, I believe, and this was 1947, so apparently they needed a left fielder, I don’t know, but I thought, “Oh my God, what did I do wrong?” I really hurt my feeling, but you learn to adjust to it. We were housed there by the Berglands and I believe he was the director or something of the association, and there were four of us that were housed there. I was pretty nice. 28:57 Being away so many years and I got there this week and I couldn’t believe there’s only two of my roommates left—they’ve passed on you know. It was funny, the only way I knew them was through this—it was 1947 since I’d seen them or heard from them. I wouldn’t even be here if it wasn’t for my little twelve year old niece on the computer, she saw the movie. She said, “my great aunt used to play ball. I’m going to see what I can find out”, so she got on that computer, got a hold of Carol and started talking to Carol and then Carol sent me some literature and I had no idea the league was still going on. I thought when I hung my spikes up it was over, but it wasn’t, it’s gone on all these years, but it was great getting back. 29:55 The people are just 7 �fantastic, yeah, we’ve had so much fun here I hate to go back to California, believe me I do. Interviewer: “Well, the league is going to California next year.” 30:29 Yeah, that’s—I’m looking forward to that. That’s about eight hours from where I live. I live up in the bay area and that’s down south, but I’ll get there if the lord’s willing and I live that long. Interviewer: “Now, did you only play in the league that one year?” Yeah, I came back and I was going to teach the WAVES in the industrial league how to hook slide. I sure did, I hit third, I hit the sack and my ankle went skewed and turned absolutely, completely around and snapped off at the ankle. The front was in the back and the back was in the front. I started out with a cast to here and then to the knee and ended up with a walking cast for months, so that kind of put the end to it. I never thought any more about and I didn’t know they were still playing or I would have been there, if I had to crawl. If I’d of known they were playing. 31:16 Interviewer: “So, did you go back to your job in California?” Oh yeah, I went back and I worked at it for forty years, and then when the state or the government passed the law that they had to have equal pay for rank—see what happened, they were picking these boys up out of school, off the street, and bringing them in and we would teach them how to inspect bottles, how to pack them and they become our crew leaders in a month and we’re there twenty-eight years and we’re still teaching them and they’re moving ahead. Anyhow, the government decided that they should start making women supervisors, so I did make supervisor, but like I say, it was out in the warehouse with the teamsters and the warehousemen, and boy that is tough. 32:07 Boy, they’re 8 �unionized let me tell you, but yeah, they did call me in and did offer me a job in the plant which I knew that part of the department back and forward. Back in Florida I worked twelve out of the fourteen departments, but I decided I had enough, so I quit or took my retirement, early retirement, at fifty-eight. I was home about five weeks and my mind— I’ve always worked and I went to the bar one day and Joanne Weston, the Big Bomber, the roller derby queen, was in the bar. I walked in there and was going to order a drink and she said, “hey, watch the bar for me, I got to run over to the bank and I’ll be right back”, and I said, “I don’t know how to tend bar”, and she said, “if they want a drink, just ask them what goes in it and if they don’t know, they don’t need it” 33:07 That’s how I started tending bar for thirteen years. Yeah, and then I finally hung it up. Here I am again. Interviewer: “How do you think your experience in sports, the time you spent playing organized ball, softball and baseball, how do you think that affected you or helped you in your life or help you to do other things?” Well, it taught me a lot of self-respect mainly, and it gave me a little more confidence in myself. I was very shy and it kind of gave me a different look on life. I was a little more forward and able to speak up and speak my mind, which I never did before. People would say something and I would cry, I was real backward you know. 34:12 I’m not now, but I was. Interviewer: “Did you ever think of yourself as any kind of pioneer, whether it was in sports or in your job?” Not really, not really, it was just something we had to do. Interviewer: “Did you ever see the “A league of Their Own” movie? 9 �I sure did and I was just so excited I couldn’t see straight. I went out—in California it sold out immediately, that film, because we’re ball minded anyhow, and you know I went from pillar to post and couldn’t find one and apparently someone had passed away and my niece down south in Sacramento, she went into a thrift store and she found a tape that hadn’t even been opened and she called me and sent me the tape, so I have the tape. 35:09 I couldn’t find it at all at home, it really sold, and just about everybody in California has one. Believe it or not, everybody that had it remembered then that I played and I had so many letters from young kids wanting autographs and things. I won’t send an autograph unless it’s on a picture because to me a name is nothing unless you have a face to go with it, so I go down and have that Copymat and have these eight by tens made. I have a nice picture with me picking up a bat. I have them made and then I autograph them and give them to them. I just feel that way about it. What’s a name on a piece of paper if you don’t know who it is? You know yourself, you write an address down and a name, but I’ve been trying to get cards made. 36:13 I’ve had so many requests, but the one that broke my heart was this young fella wrote me and said, “I’m getting married in September and my wife to be saw your movie and went absolutely crazy. Would you please get a congratulation card for our wedding and autograph it? We’ll cherish that until the day we die”, and you know I even sent Carol a letter and if she can get the whole league or whoever would be available to sign one for them. You know that’s the kind of letters I would get in the mail and it makes you feel so great that people are acknowledging you. I mean little kids, I’m eight, I’m ten, I’m twelve, and it really does something to you. 37:17 10 �Interviewer: “Well, it also makes for a good story, so I would just like to thank you for coming in and telling it to us today.” This has been a great thrill, really and truly. Just getting back again and being around all the old friends, and believe it or not it’s like I never left after all these years. The funny part is though they got a story going around that it’s my great, great grand child and I haven’t been married and it’s my great, great niece and I have a picture of her and she’s adorable. She sent for a uniform and she chose white and she had a picture taken in it and she sent me the uniform, so I called her and I said, “Claissa, my uniform wasn’t white, it was khaki”, and she said, “well, I like white”, and she did take a beautiful picture. This kid just turned thirteen and you would swear she was twenty, a beautiful girl. Everybody in the league—all the kids in the league said that she should be a model and I said, “she already is sweetheart”, but that’s how I got in was through this little kid you know. 38:25 We’re trying to bring her in as an associate and get the younger kids down south into it. 11 �12 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_JDenoble Title A name given to the resource Denoble, Jerre (Interview transcript and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Denoble, Jerre Description An account of the resource Jerre Denoble was born in Oakland, California in 1923. She learned to play ball from her father, and while she was a teenager she started playing softball in an industrial league. A friend encouraged her to try out for the AAGPBL, and she joined the league in Cuba for spring training in 1947. She was assigned to Grand Rapids, but after scoring the only run in the season opener, she was sent to Peoria. After playing one season, she went back to her job in California. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-08-08 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/efb17100d6dbe7c8aead118230005288.mp4 b2630dda90fb4fc8385e1e33475d20fe https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/796f4f4eb5159d98e805ae26dd794852.pdf 34586e5f0c539316dab09b0d9ce6cec0 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans History Project Interviewee’s Name: Terry Donahue Length of Interview: (51:37) Date of Interview: August 4, 2010 at the Reunion of the Professional Girls Baseball League Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Lindsey Thatcher, March 28, 2011 Interviewer: “Let’s begin with your full name and then when and where were you born? My full name is Theresa, T-H-E-R-E-S-A Donahue. I was born in [Millaville or Melaval] Saskatchewan, Canada. I was born on a farm, my father farmed. And that’s where I grew up. Interviewer: “And in what year, when was your birthday?” 1925. Interviewer: “Okay, born in 1925?” 1925. Interviewer: “Ah, same as my mother?” Okay. Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like?” I had wonderful parents; we had a happy home life. My, both my parents were very sports minded people. And I can honestly say that I can never remember not playing with a ball. My, in fact I remember as a very young child my Dad playing in a game, you know with his men. But I was very fortunate. I had one brother (01:00), 14 months younger than I was. He was very athletic and very good. So I had all of that on my side. Interviewer: “So as a young child you were playing baseball with who? Just your dad and your brother or did you have a team that you played with?” Oh no, my mother I can remember going out in the yard with my Dad and brother and my mother and Dad would knock us a balls and playing catch and so on. And of course as I got older I would play with the boys, my brother was very good and I tagged along. Interviewer: “So you were in a farm community?” Yes. �Interviewer: “Okay so when you were a kid where did you play baseball, where did you play?” Well at school, at school. And then my brother would go with a bunch of boys and I tagged a long and would play with them, so I have been involved a long time. (02:00) Interviewer: “You went to high school I take it?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, how was your high school experience?” Oh listen, I played on a girl’s team. And we had we used to have what you would call sports days and we would play at competition from other schools and so… Interviewer: “Was this baseball or was this softball?” This was softball. Interviewer: “Softball.” Softball, yeah. Interviewer: “What position were you playing?” Then I pitched and played the infield and that was in the school league and then I would play with my brother and his friends. Interviewer: “Do you remember Pearl Harbor?” Yes I can remember my dad and my mother talking about Pearl Harbor. Interviewer: “Did you have a radio?” Yes. Interviewer: “That’s probably where they heard it?” No television then. Interviewer: “Right.” But we did have a radio (03:00) and we played marbles and ping pong and you know and mother was always very, a doer. �Interviewer: “Your dad was a farmer?” Yes. Interviewer: “Oh okay. Did you have to do chores?” Yes, when I came home from school I had to milk my cow and I had to do the dishes. And you know after school you would come home and head out maybe in the mornings gather the eggs, you know? I wouldn’t trade that life for anything growing up; I wouldn’t want to go back to it. Interviewer: “How did you first hear about the All American Girls Professional Baseball League?” Well I was scouted from the city team to go in to and play with their league; they had a very good league in the city. Interviewer: “How did they know about you?” (03:59) Well one of the sports days the two teams from Regina and Moosejaw was playing an exhibition game, and just before their game we were playing in the finals. And I was pitching and the manager of the Moosejaw Royals saw me there and then I remember him contacting my dad saying that I would like your daughter to come in for a try out, I was 15 years old. So my mother said, no way you are going to school. Well my dad saw to it that I went in for my try out. And I made it. So then some arrangements were made that I would have to finish school and then when school was finished I could go into the city and play ball for the rest of that season. So school started. Interviewer: “Was this baseball, or was this softball?” (05:00) This was all softball, all softball. Interviewer: “Okay, was it a paid team?” No. Interviewer: “So you were just playing for fun.” And it was a very good league. Interviewer: “Okay.” �Very good league and that is where I was scouted by the All Americans. Interviewer: “Okay, so they, somebody from their organization saw you play?” In 1954 our Moosejaw Royal team won the Western Canadian Championship. And there was a scout there I think that it was Mr. Bishop and he asked me if I would be interested in coming down next spring for a tryout with the All American Girls and I think it was in Pascagoula, Mississippi. I said “Yes I would”. And of course I could hardly wait to tell my parents, because my mother was not happy. Interviewer: “What year was this?” This was in 1954. Interviewer: “’54?” No, ’46 I mean. Interviewer: “No, oh okay yeah.” (06:00) Yeah I went into Moosejaw in 1946, and I played 4 years there and in 1945 we won the western title. Then they asked me to come down in the spring of 1946 to come down to Pascagoula for a tryout. And mother wasn’t too happy but this is where the chaperones came in. I think mother thought that maybe I wouldn’t make it. But anyway I came down I remember on that train getting into Chicago and then going with this group from there to Pascagoula and that was how I was scouted. Interviewer: “What was you’re, you are coming from Canada, had you been to the United States before?” Never. Interviewer: “Okay, and then you went into the south?” Yeah, to Pascagoula. Interviewer: “What was that experience like?” My god, well somebody is, well they sort of talked different and I (07:00) was so excited about having the chance to make this league where I could play ball every day. I can remember telling my dad once my dream was if I could play ball every day that would be my dream come true. So I was so excited, that was 1946 when they were adding two new teams to the league. They were adding Peoria and Muskegon so they needed some new gals. �Interviewer: “Now you were used to playing softball?” Yes. Interviewer: “What kind of ball were you playing with your new position?” It was softball, fast pitched. Interviewer: “Okay, well I mean when you were getting into the Professional Baseball though?” It was fast pitched. Interviewer: “Right, but the ball was…?” 12 inch. Interviewer: “Okay” It started with 12 inch. Interviewer: “Okay, so the transition was not that big of a thing for you because you already had…” Yes, that’s right. It was the same size ball as we were playing with in Canada. (08:00) Interviewer: “But it changed later on though.” Yes. Interviewer: “We will talk about that a little later on. So a scout sees you playing in the softball league and now they have offered you this professional job, and you are going to be playing in the south.” They offered me to come down for a try out. Interviewer: “Right and you passed the try out.” Yes, I came down I passed. And I’ll never forget that day. There was it seemed to me like hundreds of girls there all trying and I didn’t know anybody. I remember I remember managers and people up there with their big pencil and paper and they would call your name and you would go out and they called my name and I remember I ran out to short stop. And they knocked me grounders and they got your flies and you had to go, and I was really on that day I was picking them up, but I got a dirty bounce and it cut my eye there. So the chaperone came out and �a nurse and they (09:00) said we have to have you get some stitches and I said “I’m not going anyplace until I’m finished,” I said “put a band aid on it and I’m going back out”. And I did, I was lucky because I did very well that day. And so, then allocation came and this huge room I had never seen a room this large and all of these girls in it, and we are all trying to make the league. And I can remember sitting there and trying to listen for my name. It wasn’t coming and I thought oh my gosh, I tell you when I heard my name I was the happiest girl in that whole building, because that meant I made the league. So that I will never forget and even talking about it I kind of get goose pimples because I was so excited and there were girls crying because they didn’t make it or they were being traded or so on and so forth, but I was happy. (10:00) Interviewer: “So let’s go back over the story, and let’s talk about it” Well I got to Pascagoula and we worked very hard for two weeks I remember it was so hot and coming from Canada you know it was cold there in April and I got down there and I worked very very hard, then came allocation day and I had never seen a room that big in my life and all of these girls there are all trying to make the league and so anyway they sent me out to short stop and all of the managers, there was one knocking balls as hard as he could, making you run for it and all of this. And I did really well, but I had a dirty bounce and it cut my eye, on my head (11:00) and took me off, the nurse and the chaperone says I think you might need some stitches. I said put a band-aid on it, I’m going back out and I’m going to finish. And I often thought, maybe they thought there is a gutsy kid. You know? I don’t know, but anyway I heard my name and I can tell you I was so excited. I was so happy I could hardly wait to tell my dad and my mother. So I made it. And then they told me I was going to be with the Peoria Red Wings I was pleased because that was a brand new team we were adding. So we were sort of, you know there were a few veterans on it, but I made this Peoria. Great team, great group of gals so… Interviewer: “How was your first season? You were a rookie. ” I was a rookie. Interviewer: “So did you play very much?” I did, really, for, I filled in a lot of places. You know there were only 15 girls to a team (12:00), and so you know if a girl was hurt or wasn’t feeling well I went in. And I can tell you one time, our catcher, our regular catcher broke her finger and our manager Leo Schrall came to me and said, “Terry have you ever caught?”, I said “Leo, I’ve never caught”. He said “Well you’re going in”. I said “Okay I’ll do the best I can”, he hands me this great big mitt and I said “Leo I can’t use that mitt”, I wouldn’t catch the ball it had this big great fat bit. He said “Well, what are you going to do?” I said “I’ll use my infield glove”. Well I’ll tell you I never forget that day, that day went 19 innings and it was April 19, 1948. I’ll never forget it because the next day was my birthday and my knees were mighty sore from catching. And the game was called at midnight �because the next day (13:00) was Sunday and we couldn’t play into a Sunday. That was my first experience of catching and I ended up liking the position very well and I did finally get a good glove. But my hand was mighty sore, with the infield glove but I loved that glove, I still have it. Interviewer: “You had mentioned earlier about playing utility, could you explain what that meant?” Well that meant, I could play any of the positions and fill in whenever a girl was not well or somebody was hurt. But I never pitched, and I never played first base. Interviewer: “Where did you stay your first season?” I stayed with a couple in Peoria, Mr. and Mrs. Turnball. I tell you I can’t tell you how good it, I can tell you I ended up calling them my United States parents, and I stayed with them all the time I played in Peoria. And I saw them until the day they died and passed away. They were just like family to me. (14:07) Interviewer: “What was the experience of being away from home I mean you had a good family life and suddenly you were out in the middle of nowhere so to speak… ” Oh, I had a wonderful happy life. But I was playing the game of my dream. And I, you know we were playing every day and if we weren’t playing we were out practicing, I loved it, I loved it. So I often think you know, some of the girls got homesick. I never got homesick because I knew I was playing, I was where I wanted to be. And I sent mother and dad the daily paper so they saw and read all the games. Interviewer: “That’s wonderful. You were making pretty good money for someone your age for one thing.” Yes, I should say so, and for that time. Interviewer: “So did you send money home, or how did you do that?” No, I built my little bank account in Peoria. I had my first contact for 50 dollars which was a lot of money in those days. I think a lot of us were making more money than our poor fathers, you know. (15:09) Interviewer: “What was your social life like the first year?” Well it was, you know there were a lot of nice guys watching our games and wanting to go out. I remember you know it was very tempting but we had to get the okay by the chaperone. And sometimes I wasn’t too happy with “You know, I don’t think you better Terry”, or you �know…well anyway yeah it was, I got to tell you the people of Peoria were wonderful. They would have us for lunch, the directors were, you know they would have a boat and take us up the, I forget the name of the place in Peoria but they were all so nice to us. You know, it was a good social life. We would play. (16:04) Interviewer: “Did you think, you made it very clear about how excited you were about playing professional baseball,” Oh absolutely. Interviewer: “and I realize this was a tough question because it was a long time ago, but were you thinking, you know this is what I’m going to be doing for my professional career 10 years from now, 5 years…?” You know, I never thought about it ever ending, I never thought about maybe someday I could never play this game. I was living; I guess for the moment, I don’t know I was so happy. But I never thought about that ending. I thought it was just go on and on and on. Interviewer: “When you got back home from your first season, was there any discussion with your parents about your future and what you were going to be doing?” When I got, after the first season I went back home and I took my dad a cap and they had the newspapers and dad and I would sit and talk for hours and they were on the farm (17:05). And after I got home and visited with them and saw family and friends I went into Moosejaw and got a job and then worked in there until the next spring and then I would come back down to the states. Interviewer: “Now, I want to get back. Where did you work?” I worked at a department store. Interviewer: “Did they know that you were a baseball player?” Yes and the manager was very proud, very supportive. Interviewer: “So there was a certain amount of publicity then about the team and you say that your parents, your father was reading the newspaper. Was there article about your team and things like that?” Yes, in the newspaper. Interviewer: “Okay, so you were kind of a local celebrity.” Yes, I guess you could put it that way. And Dad was very proud. �Interviewer: “So how did you know you were going to be playing another year, did they send you a later?” We would sign another contract. Interviewer: “Okay, so a contract was sent to you.” Exactly. (18:00) Interviewer: “Okay, now this time you could sign it on your own because you were 18?” Yeah you know, there was no question then. Even mother was approving. Interviewer: “So, what was the second season like?” Oh gosh, I could hardly wait to get back down, you know. It was just wonderful. I wasn’t a rookie anymore, and so there were rookies coming in. And I’ll tell you when they rookies came in I was the first one there to greet them because I was a rookie and I knew. The thing was that it was a new team that first year I played. So it wasn’t like going into a team where there were veterans, and you know there were…so the girls were really very nice. But I was always the first one there to greet a new girl coming in. (19:00) Interviewer: “What was the uniform like?” Oh my, well playing in those dresses and skirts was something else. Especially for sliding, but Mr. Rigby wanted us to look like young ladies, and play ball like men; and that’s exactly what we did. I’m going to tell you that because Peoria was the first year, the people thought that they would go out and get a good laugh and see this novelty of these women playing in skirts. We had a full house well they weren’t laughing when they saw how well we played, and I can say this because my landlady and landlord had never seen a game, I don’t think. They came out to have a good laugh, and they never missed a game after that. So, we won them over. Interviewer: “You mentioned about the dress and all of that, how difficult was it to play in that?” (20:00) Well, it was kind of a full skirt. I think it bothered the pitchers more than any of us. They would wind up and the pitchers and it was sort of pen over there skirt because it was so full. And actually we got used to it and it wasn’t so bad. �Interviewer: “Well some of them said that they made alterations because I remember one of you made a wonderful statement and said ‘I reached down to get the ball and all I got was dress’” Yes, well it was very full and it did bother the pitchers. Interviewer: “Did you make any alterations or anything like that?” I didn’t on mine. Interviewer: “Okay, so” And you know they gave us the satin shorts to where under the, but and then they gave us pads for sliding but they shifted and no one every used them that I know of. (21:00) Interviewer: “Oh okay. Wow. Okay.” But we did have the strawberries. And thank goodness for the chaperones, they were wonderful. Interviewer: “So you had a few strawberries yourself?” Oh, yes. Interviewer: “Oh my gosh, my gosh.” But you know, I don’t think anybody really minded. The chaperones were great and they. Interviewer: “They were responsible for cleaning the wound?” They were wonderful women, yeah. Interviewer: “I heard that it stung quite a bit though when they put that… ” Oh yeah, when they would put that stuff on it, it would sting. Interviewer: “Oh my gosh.” Interviewer: “Let’s get back to the second season.” Okay. Interviewer: “Did you stay in the same house with those two people that you said were so wonderful, did you stay in the same house the second year?” Yes. �Interviewer: “So they knew you were coming back.” Oh yes, I stayed all four years there. Yeah, and then I was just part of the family. You know you had to pay for our room (22:03) and go out for our meals. Well it got so they wouldn’t even take my money for my room. They were just terrific. They had no children, and they just took me over. They were wonderful, wonderful people. Interviewer: “Now you were staying by yourself or did you have a roommate?” I stayed, I had a roommate and she was traded, and then I stayed quite awhile by myself and then another girl came to town and needed a place and she came and stayed there also with me, and they liked her too. So, I think that most of the girls had wonderful places to stay and the people were so nice. Interviewer: “So the end of your second season, you come back home again, and you are working in the same place” Yes, yes, my boss was so good, he said “Terry anytime you want to come here again the doors open” Interviewer: “That’s wonderful.” So he was wonderful (23:00). So being a Canadian, to keep in shape I played girls hockey. So when I came down in the spring I was in shape. My legs were in good shape and I was ready to go. So that was a good advantage for me. Like the California and Florida girls they were in shape they played all winter. But I played girls hockey and kept in shape. Interviewer: “Tell us about your manager, how was your manager?” Our first manager was Johnny Gottselig, he was a famous hockey player. I don’t know if he was the first, maybe he was. Then we had several others and then we had Louis Schrall and he was from the university there. So we had good managers. They taught us a lot, you know Leo taught us the sliding. Interviewer: “I was going to ask that, because you came from a baseball background, you already knew how to play, but you never played professionally, formally, and some of the girls said that there were things that they taught you that either you had a bad habit from before, didn’t realize it was a bad habit, was there things that they taught you that you thought ‘Oh I should do it this way.’?” (24:16) I can’t recall anything. But when I played in Moosejaw and there was an excellent league and there was excellent coaching. I think that that was to our advantage too. We had very good coaching in Moosejaw. �Interviewer: “Now did your manager treat you like a woman, or did he treat you like a baseball player?” Oh, he was tough, you know. I think you treated us like a baseball player. I mean, he didn’t baby us, and we could take it. I mean we had to read the rules and we would get on that bus and he would question us. So I think you know he was, I think he was treating us more like a baseball player, which was great. (25:00) Interviewer: “How were the road trips?” Oh gosh. We would finish a ball game and shower and get on that old bus. And if we lost, we it was very quiet, and if we won we would still for a hundred miles. You know, I never ever heard anybody complain about the road trips. But I, you know we couldn’t wear slacks, we would get on the bus we would get in our jeans and traveling all night, but if we stopped we had to get out of those jeans and put on a skirt. We not even, I can remember several nights we’d stop and we would have to get on our skirt. And Mr. Rigley wanted us to look like ladies, and we did. Interviewer: “You were very young of course, the fact that you were doing a road trip all night. The next day, what was your day like? In other words you were on the bus all night you arrived and it’s the town you are going to be playing. Walk us through what you had to do, you went to sleep? Or you… ” (26:11) Well yes, we would get into a hotel. Like if we were traveling form Peoria to Muskegon, which is a long ways, we would get into the hotel and get a couple winks of sleep and sometimes he would get us out there earlier before a game for more running and so on, and sometimes we would have to go out for a work out in the morning. It all depended on how things were going. If we weren’t winning we would have to get out there and practice. But those bus trips and we look back on them now and they were fun. Interviewer: “Yeah, you had mentioned about the fans the first year, they come out kind of laughing and you proved them wrong. How were the road trips, in terms of the road trips going to other towns how were the fans?” (27:03) They were great too, I’m sure the same thing happened there. We always had good crowds. I think that it was 1948 we drew a million people, the league. And then in 1947 we trained in Havana, Cuba. Interviewer: “Tells about that.” �That was exciting. Interviewer: “Well you had never been out of the, well I was going to say that you had never been out of the country, but you are from Canada!” So we get into Cuba and we trained there. Oh it was hot. And we trained there very hard for two weeks and this was before Castro. I can remember one day they told us to bring sandwiches into the hotel because we were not going to practice or go out the next day because the army was walking down the streets. I can remember it was scary. Anyway the Brooklyn Dodgers were training there at the same time we were (28:00) and we outdrew them. They came over and they said “What is going on over here?”, and when they saw how well we played they couldn’t believe it. Dottie Kamenshek, was the first baseman for Rockford Beeches. They said if she had been a man they would have offered her $50,000 on the spot. In those days that was a lot, but that was a fun time. Interviewer: “You played against Cuban teams?” No, we played, we played, well we were playing against, you know our league. Interviewer: “Just like you would if you were in the states, okay.” Yeah. Interviewer: “I know a couple girls got recruited out of Cuba” Yes, yes. And we had a couple on the Peoria Red Wings. And they were fun, fun gals and in fact I think we have one Cuban woman here. Interviewer: “I think we have done her interview already” (29:00) Yeah and she’s very funny. Interviewer: “Yeah, so your trip to Cuba, you come back. Now you are in your third season, now isn’t it about this time that the ball changed? ” Yes, in 1948 we went to side arm. So it wasn’t side arm, some of the girls were still going the windmill; side arm came out in 1948. Then a couple more years and the overhead took over. Interviewer: “How about you, how was that transition for you?” Well I tell you; at that point I was doing more catching. I was talking about 1949, it was overhead, almost completely overhead by then. And I was doing more catching. And in the 1950, I signed my contract for 1950, and I did not sign it because by that time they had lengthened the �bases (30:00). Every two years they would lengthen the bases and make the ball smaller. And they changed the size of the ball 6 times, from the 12 inch to the…I think it was 194-, I didn’t sign the 1950 contract. As it was I had an opportunity to go into Chicago and I was offered a contract to play fast pitched in Chicago. Because I was doing more catching, I thought that’s what I would do would go into Chicago and play professional there in the fast pitched because I was afraid my arm wasn’t strong enough. And it was a hard decision to make, but a lot of the girls came in. I know in 1950 in Chicago, we had several, I was on the team, and Sophie Curry, and Joanne Wenners. There was a lot of us on the team. (30:51) Interviewer: “This is outside of the league?” Yes. So that’s why I didn’t sign the 1950 contract, because of the distance and I didn’t feel my arm was strong enough. And I had the opportunity to go into the city. But it was a hard decision, because you know it was such a good league. Interviewer: “This is a paid, this is also a professional team? I didn’t even know about this.” Yes Interviewer: “And it’s outside of the All American Girls Professional Baseball League?” Yes. Yes. Interviewer: “It was a fast pitched, professional women’s team.” Yes, well you know by 1950 the boys were coming back from service and people had more money and there were more things to do. So, I believe the, the attendance wasn’t as big as it used to be, so that was my decision. I think it was the right one, for the simple reason that I didn’t think my arm was strong enough and I was doing more catching. But it was a tough decision. (32:02) Interviewer: “How long did you stay with the fast pitched?” Two years, and then, but in Chicago you could get a job and play because we didn’t play outside the Chicago area. I got my job, and I was playing at night. And I liked my job so well that I finally just quit playing and so I played there, I worked there 38 years and then I retired. Interviewer: “I have to know, what, with the enthusiasm you had for playing baseball, what job could possibly replace?” �Well I think I finally realized that the time has come. I was Canadian, and it was….I thought I might play longer in the Chicago area. I got my job, and I was doing well there. And then in the contract if you were hurt, you were responsible, and I thought now well maybe it was time to make the change. It was hard. (33:04) Interviewer: “What job did you take?” I worked with an interior design firm, was a very very good one. We hired architects and designers and I was in the business end of it. I liked my job, I was there 38 years. Interviewer: “Where did you get the training to do something like that?” I went to night school because I never had the opportunity to go to college. And I got my job, went to night school and it all worked out, I was very fortunate because I love the people I worked with. But I got to tell you that I couldn’t go to ball game that first year, because I wanted to be out there. It was hard. Interviewer: “Did the, did your coworkers know you were a baseball player?” (33:58) No, I never talked about. Nobody knew that I had played professional ball. If I had told them they probably thought that I was crazy, so let me tell you, when that movie started all hell broke loose. Oh, phone was ringing, they wanted to interview, television and radio. It was incredible but very exciting. Interviewer: “What was your reaction to that?” Well we were excited, but I can tell you there was 50 of us girls, met all the stars and starlets in a hotel in [Muskogee]. We had to tell them about our experiences and help them throw a ball and so on. And of course Madonna threw just like a girl, and oh we thought, and we got very upset to think that they had a Madonna in that movie, because we didn’t have a Madonna in our League, and we told them so. And they said that they had her under their thumb and she had a very small part. Well anyway, it ended up that we got to like Madonna, she was a pretty good gal, a hard worker. (35:12) Interviewer: “Well the combination of her and Rosie O’Donnell, really made that part of the movie. They were perfect with each other and for each other.” Oh absolutely, Rosie O’Donnell had the best ability. She could throw and catch. �Interviewer: “Well someone told me that she actually knew how to play baseball.” Oh she did, but Madonna, forget it. Oh, anyway it was pretty exciting because we got to beat them all. Interviewer: “I want you to think about this for a moment, you have gone years and years working in a place that you love to work, baseball is way behind you, suddenly this movie comes out, did you think what is all of this hoopla about? Or did you just think well, I guess people think this a pretty big deal.” Well we were I know I was very excited to think (36:02) that this movie was going to tell our story, which is something we love doing. We didn’t know how it was going to come out. We were very worried until we saw it, but when we saw it we were very pleased. Because it wasn’t a documentary as you know, it was a… Interviewer: “A Hollywood movie” A Hollywood movie, I remember going to Rockford and to see the movie for the first time with all of the girls there and we had tears, we were really excited. And except for that movie nobody would have known about it. When that came out, and the people at work couldn’t believe it, that I had played professional. So it was pretty exciting, oh goodness gracious. You know we were being interviewed, we weren’t talkers and we would never, it was incredible. People just wanted, I said well if you want an interview come to my apartment because we were running around like crazy, we all were. (37:13) Interviewer: “What is your reaction now that several years have passed since that movie? It hasn’t, it’s still being shown on television, and people still talk about it. I teach at the University, I get kids 20 years old as soon as I say ‘League of their Own’, they say ‘Oh yeah, I love that movie’ they may have seen it when they were a little kid. When I tell my students that I am doing a documentary about it them…oh my goodness, they think I am…see you have kind of rubbed off on me, your fame has rubbed off on me a little bit, they think that is the coolest thing.” I got to tell you a funny story. One day I had gone to mass that Sunday and I fainted and they hauled me off to the closest hospital and this at home in Chicago. Of course, they were checking me, they had me they were going for the heart and I can remember one day laying there and this little Puerto Rican nurse came in (38:09). And she said “Oh you are watching a movie”, happened to be A League of their Own, and I was laying there and I thought this is great I’ll get to see our movie. She comes in and I say “I’m watching a movie”, and she says “Oh what is it about?” and said “Oh it’s about the women playing ball in the ‘40’s, and I said I was one of those women and I tried to help Madonna throw a ball. Well I saw the look on her face, she turned around and went out so fast and pretty soon another nurse came in. She said “Oh you are watching a movie” and I said “Yeah”. So I told her the same thing. They thought I was crazy. �Then two doctors came in, and they thought well there is nothing wrong with this woman, that’s all they had. That was so funny. Interviewer: “Once again I want to get back to what is your reaction to all of this?” (39:04) We were overwhelmed, we were overwhelmed, really. We couldn’t believe that we were getting all of this attention. Because anytime you mention that movie people go crazy. I think we were really overwhelmed and so excited. Interviewer: “How is it now? It’s been several years and you have had a chance to realize that this whole country, if not parts of this world think that this is an amazing period of time and what you did was really extraordinary” Well even now I don’t think that it’s changed much since the first time it came out. You mentioned to somebody that you’ve played and you know they will see my ring and I might be paying a bill or doing something. “Oh, that’s a pretty ring”, you know and we’ll get talking and I’ll say “Have you heard of A League of Their Own?” and you tell them that you’ve played they just get so excited. It’s incredible. (40:02) Interviewer: “What do you think about that?” Well, you know what I can say, what I think, I think I was very fortunate to have had the opportunity to be able to play professional baseball with the All American League. I think that we were at the right place at the right time. I feel very fortunate. And to have played with such a great group of women, great group of women. I think that I’m glad Mr. Wrigley included the Canadians, and I think that we did prove that women can play professional ball as well as men; we can’t hit the ball as hard or as far but we can make all of those same plays and sometimes better, I’ve seen maybe a few. But, it is. I think we are very fortunate. Interviewer: “One of the things that is really impressive to me, is the number of you that have gone on beyond that period of time and have done, some of you became PhD’s, some of you worked, where does those few years fit into your idea of your life? It’s only a small part, but where does that fit in terms of your life?” (41:16) I think that playing in the All American taught me a lot. You know you are team player, you are team worker. You get along with people. I think that it did a lot for me and for all of us. I think it fit in very well. Interviewer: “Why did you come to the first reunion, why did you come to the reunion?” �Let me tell you, the very first reunion was 1982, in a Holiday Inn just east of Michigan Avenue in Chicago. And that I will never forget. We had to have name tags because some of us got heavier, some of us lost our baby fat, and that was a wonderful reunion. And every reunion was wonderful; but that very first one where we hadn’t seen one another for years and years was a great reunion. You know, I don’t say one was better than another, I think they are all great. It was so wonderful to see the gals you played, and it is just amazing how sometimes you can remember a play. I remember when I threw you out or something, so it’s been great. (42:35) Interviewer: “You have a family?” I never married. But I do have family which I love dearly and I’m going to be with them September 1, I’m going to celebrate my 85th birthday. They are having a big party. Interviewer: “How did your family react to the movie and all of the because before that they knew you were a baseball player, but not a big movie star?” (43:00) No, well my mother and dad of course on the farm, they never went to movies. By this time, when the movie came out my dad had passed away but my mother was living closer to my brother and his family and when that movie came out they gave all of my family a free ticket to go see this movie. And mother could hardly wait. When the movie was over she walked out with my nephew and she looked at him and said “I thought Terry played in a nice league”, because she mentioned Tom Hanks, so that was funny. So they were all very proud and very excited about it. Interviewer: “This is a big question, maybe you have thought about it, maybe you haven’t thought about it, I don’t know. But where do you think the All American Girls Professional Baseball League fits into the whole scheme of history, of American history?” (44:00) I think that it was an important thing at that time, because of the war I think that we did help people have a place to go and watch us play. I hope that it can continue. I think there are some young gals that are trying to get a team, I know I talked to them yesterday and I’m going to go and see them. But I hope it continues because I think there is a part. Interviewer: “What do you say to young people, when little girls come up to you and start talking to you?” Listen if you have the ability, and the desire and the love for the game, go for it, go for it. �Interviewer: “Any particular moments that you played that really stick out, what are the stories you tell while you are here at the reunion?” (45:01) I’ll tell you there is such a great group; we had such a great time but after one season there was three of us Canadians going back home. So we decided to go buy a car. We got $25 each and we bought this car for $75. And we took off for Canada. No, before we went on our last road trip we took the car into the mechanic, and said we just bought this car, we’re going to drive it to Canada when we got off our road trip. Just check it over, but we don’t want you to do anything to this car because we don’t want a big bill. So, we go off and come back from the road trip and we go back to the mechanics. “We fixed your car, it’s all ready to go”. We said “We told you not to do anything”. We said “Well how much is the bill?” he said “$2.50”. He put a new switch or something, you know. So anyway we took off for Canada. He said, “You will make it you don’t go more than 30 miles a day”. Well that was a fantastic trip. So that was one, you know, that was after the season. But, you know it was just things like this. You see them at the reunion and now we laugh about it. You know? (46:25) Interviewer: “Right, right. Any particular moments of the game that particularly stands out? Either a home run or did you catch something or is there anything you can remember?” You know, you hear this…there is no crying in baseball. I remember one night I was catching and a gal laid down a bunt, and I got the bunt and threw it to the first and it went miles over the first baseman. Do you think I had a tear? Yes I did. That was one. But I think catching the 19 innings, there were a lot of good moments. Peoria had never won a championship, but I can tell you we had a great team. Great team. Interviewer: “Who were the real challenges? What teams really gave you the biggest trouble?” (47:14) I think those 4 teams that started that always had good teams, like Rockford, Kenosha, Racine, and South Bend. They had good teams; I think they were the tough ones. Interviewer: “You know we are from Grand Rapids, all of us are from Grand Rapids.” Are you? Grand Rapids? I remember Grand Rapids. They were good too, the Chicks, oh yeah. Connie Wisniewski, the pitcher, oh she was good. She was one that went into Chicago later. But they were all good teams, they were all good. �Interviewer: “Well I want to just thank you so much.” You are all from Grand Rapids? Interviewer: “Yeah” (48:01) You never saw us play then, you are too young. Interviewer: “Too young for that I think yeah, yeah.” I remember Bill Allington who coached the Rockford Peaches had a movie and as far as I know that is the only one there is but one of the girls played it once at one of the reunions it was fun to see it… Interviewer: “Do you remember who it was that played it?” You know I can’t remember. Interviewer: “Because we are trying to find as much as we can for the film.” As far as I know Bill Allington was the coach of the Rockford Peaches, and I think it was the Rockford Peaches playing the Peoria Red Wings. I might be wrong about playing the Peoria Red Wings but there was, he had made a home movie at that time. I don’ think it was the whole game but I wonder who would know about it. Interviewer: “I’m going to start asking. But you said it was Bill Allington?” Yeah, oh he was the manager, of the Rockford Peaches. Interviewer: “Yeah” (49:07) Yeah. Interviewer: “We heard that there is a film of a whole game somewhere?” Well that could have been a whole game too. I can’t say yes or no, all I know that there was one, someplace along the way I saw clips of it, I’ll have to ask. Interviewer: “I’ve seen one which is a news feature at the time, so it wasn’t the whole game. But it was news, you know how the people would come out there and they would interview?” No, that wasn’t this. This was… �Interviewer: “This was a home movie, he…yeah” And there weren’t too many at the time. That would be a good one to get. Interviewer: “Yeah, absolutely.” I’ll certainly ask around too. Interviewer: “Please, I would really appreciate that. Did you go to the ball game yesterday?” Yes I was. Interviewer: “Tell us about that. What was that like.” Oh listen, the Chicago White Sox won. (50:00) Interviewer: “How was the baseball game?” Oh it was great but I tell you it was really hot out there. We left after the 6th inning. It just was so hot. Interviewer: “You guys were honored and brought out.” Oh, they were wonderful; we were honored and came out onto the field. They had a very good crowd, yeah. Interviewer: “Lots of applause.” Oh yes, all of these things are happening to us old gals, that’s what is keeping us young. Interviewer: “That’s wonderful. Just a quick question about, you said that it was difficult for you to even go to a game after you…” Yeah. Interviewer: “When did that change eventually? Did you go to ball games regularly after?” Yeah, after that I went there and I wanted to be out in it. And it was really hard. But I was going, I started night school, I was working, and I had made the decision that that was the proper thing to do. And as I look back I think I made the right decisions. Because even that league in the Chicago league, the boys were coming back from the service and the crowds weren’t so good either. Interviewer: “Well it worked out for you.” �It worked out, no complaints. And here we are. Interviewer: “You look beautiful, you do, you do.” Oh, thank you. Interviewer: “Thank you so much. It was a pleasure.” Thank you. And you are all from Grand Rapids? Interviewer: “Yup.” (51:37) �� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_TDonahue Title A name given to the resource Donahue, Terry (Interview transcript and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Donahue, Terry Description An account of the resource Terry Donahue was born in 1925 in a farming community in Saskatchewan, and grew up playing baseball with her family and friends, and softball at school. At the age of fifteen, she was recruited onto the Moosejaw Royals, a women's softball team, and was spotted by American scouts from there and went to the All American Girls Professional Baseball League in 1946. She played four seasons for the Peoria Redwings, starting as a utility player and winding up as a catcher. She left the league in 1950 for a softball league in Chicago, and stayed there to work for an interior design firm. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Baseball players--Illinois Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-08-06 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b89abfdde8eb0e3b2d427f9d0e37e585.mp4 772cfd10ed490a12676842267d5dc9ac https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fbe8bde51cf8d2bda2cddde31cc25030.pdf d32158bc2e6dff00da37d1a1c28e7d05 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW GLORIA CORDES ELLIOTT Women in Baseball Born: Staten Island, New York, September 1931 Resides: Staten Island, New York Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 6, 2010, Detroit, MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion. Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, March 12, 2011 Interviewer: “Gloria can you begin by giving us some background on yourself? To start with, where and when were you born?” I was born on Staten Island, New York on September 1931 Interviewer: “And what did your family do for a living at that time?” My father, he worked, as a carpenter in New York City and my mother was a homemaker with eleven children, you know, it was about all she had time to do. Interviewer: “Did your father have work during the thirties? Could he keep you fed?” Yes he did and he was very good at that. He had a good job and the money at that time was nothing like today, but it was sufficient for that time period. Interviewer: “How did you wind up getting started in sports?” Well, I was one of eleven children, I have five sisters and five brothers and my three younger brothers were very close to my age, so I spent a lot of time with them. My two older brothers, they were professional baseball players and I use to watch them all the time. One was a pitcher and he showed me how to throw different pitches. 14:03 Interviewer: “And did you get to play baseball with them?” I got to play with my younger brothers and our friends in the area. You know, just pickup games—choose sides and find an empty field where you could play and that was 1 �about most of it. We didn’t have anything for girls in that time period. Girls were just not allowed to play ball or be on boys teams and there were no sports for girls in the schools. Interviewer: “By the time you got to the high school level there were some girls sports and opportunities that weren’t there before.” Not at the school I went to, no, and I don’t think any of the schools on Staten Island had girls sports just yet. Interviewer: “What about youth groups or things like that?” Well, like I said, the boys, they belonged to the youth groups, the PAL, the CYL, and they tried to get me on their team because I was their pitcher. The same thing there, no girls were allowed. 15:02 Interviewer: “Ok, could you play other sports with some of these groups, basketball or softball?” Yes, they had basketball for the girls at the time at that was at the PAL center and I just got to meet these girls through my playing softball in the street. Someone that was managing the girls’ softball team asked me if I was interested in playing, so I said, “yes”, and that’s how I met some of my friends from the other part of Staten Island. Of course, we didn’t have a car and at that point we didn’t even really have bicycles, but you didn’t really get to see too many people out of your own area. Interviewer: “So, if you were going to go play softball with these people, how would you get to the games?” I did a lot of walking and if it was pretty far you could get a bus for five cants at the time, so that wasn’t too bad. 15:56 2 �Interviewer: “Now, as you were getting into your teenage years, you’re playing in different ways, did you know anything about the Girls All American Baseball League?” No, I had no idea of this baseball league, not until 1949. There were two touring teams that were touring the east coast and they came to Staten Island and they played a game at one of our baseball fields. It was advertised in the local paper, so a few of my friends and myself, we went to watch the game. Before the game started they asked if anyone was interested in trying out to come down on the field and they would take a look at you. Interviewer: “So, you went to this game without even expecting to tryout?” Definitely, just to watch a girl’s game that we never even knew existed. Interviewer: “So, how do they handle the tryouts? What do they do?” First he asked if anyone pitched with a baseball, knowing that not too many girls played baseball, so I told him I did, but like I always say, if he asked if anyone could catch, I would have said yes. It wouldn’t have been the truth, but I would have learned in a hurry. 17:10 Interviewer: “So, what happened at the tryout?” At tryouts he just had me thow a few pitches and he told me I’d hear from them and in a few weeks I did. I received a contract and I was told to go to South Bend, Indiana where they had tryouts for all the girls they picked up on these tours, so all the girls that tried out like I did, were in South Bend, Indiana in May the following year just before spring training started. The managers down there would watch us for whatever positions we played and they could choose what they needed to fill their teams. 17:50 3 �Interviewer: “Now at that point were their some people who were getting cut and didn’t get to make the team? If they got the kind of invitation you got were they probably going to play?” No, everyone was still afraid of being cut whether you signed any forms of any type, you were still eligible to be cut, but I was put on the Muskegon Lassies team and they put me on a bus to where Muskegon had their spring training and Max Carey was manager of the Fort Wayne Daisies at the time and that’s who we were having our training with. Interviewer: “So, you had the two teams training together?” Yes Interviewer: “Do you remember where it was you were doing that?” Cape Girardeau, Missouri Interviewer: “What was at Cape Girardeau?” Actually, not too much, coming from New York. One of the big rivers there, I believe it was the Mississippi and I said, “Wow, I get to see the Mississippi River”, and that was nothing I expected to do. 18:57 Interviewer: “So, what was it like for you? A lot of the women who joined the league came from small towns or the country or wherever, but come from the big city, so what sort of adjustments did you have to make when you left home and went out there?” Not really too much, I mean—see, New York City is five boroughs and Staten Island is more small town than the other four boroughs, so it wasn’t that much different. Interviewer: “Describe, a little bit, the experience in Cape Girardeau. What was it like? What was the weather like? What were the facilities like?” 4 �The weather was nice down there and we trained outside except for one day we had rain and we had indoor facilities to work in, in case of rain. You couldn’t do as much as you did outside, but it was sufficient. 19:53 Interviewer: “All right, now, when you were down there in training, were all the veteran players there too?” Yes, they were there already. Interviewer: “Were their any particular players or people who paid attention to you or game you some coaching or were you just all working individually?” Are you talking about before or when I got there? Interviewer: “When you got there.” Before, I had some pretty good coaching. When I got there they just, you know, had us work out with the veterans at our own positions. They would have us slight pitch to the veterans and that was kind of scary because these girls were good and I didn’t have any formal experience what so ever, but it worked out ok. After we trained for a couple of days we would have games against Fort Wayne and I was complimented by Max Carey at that point because he came up to me in the hotel after the game and he said, “I know a lot of you young ladies don’t know if you’re going to play or be sent home, but don’t you worry, you will not be sent home, because if they release you, I’ll pick you up”, so that felt pretty good. 21:07 Interviewer: “What pitches did you throw?” My brother taught me to throw a curve ball, a knuckle ball; I had a pretty good fastball, and once in a while what we always called a drop, which drops straight down, not break sideways. 5 �Interviewer: “Once you completed training in Cape Girardeau, did you immediately go up to Muskegon or what did you do next?” We went up to Muskegon and the season started. Interviewer: “Did you do any barnstorming along the way? Did you play games in route or just go on up north?” I think we went right up to Muskegon. We finished all of spring training and went right on up to Muskegon and the season was just getting ready to start. 21:51 Interviewer: “What kinds of rules and regulations did they have in place still for the women on these teams?” They had a lot more before I got there, thankfully, but we did have rules. We had to always appear in feminine attire in public and you weren’t supposed to swear or drink or smoke in public, which I didn’t do any of those things anyway, I was only eighteen and it didn’t affect me. There were rules to always be on good behavior, they didn’t want rowdiness and stuff like that. They wanted you to appear in public as a lady and that, you know. We always say they wanted us to look like ladies and play like men. Interviewer: “Did they have a chaperone for the team?’ There was always a chaperone, yes; in case a girl got hurt she would be there to take care of her. She took care of our housing for us and when we were on the road she would take care of the rooms and make sure everybody had their rooms and in the hotels they could make sure you met your curfew and stuff like that. You had a curfew after games, which was plenty of time. 23:04 On the road there wasn’t too much you could do anyway. Interviewer: “Did you like the chaperones? Were they good people?” 6 �Oh, they were fine, and some of them were ball players themselves, so they knew what we were going through and how to handle everything and they were like a second mother to us. Interviewer: “Do you remember playing your first regular season game?” No, because I wasn’t in the starting rotation, and I was always told that I was going to be ready to be the relief pitcher certain nights and I just never really got into the game. I must have gotten into five games in Kalamazoo because there was a record for five games. At that point we had moved to Kalamazoo, Michigan. Interviewer: “You were at Muskegon first, right?” Muskegon, and I guess they weren’t doing well as far as drawing crowds and they were looking for a new city to try to play in and they tried out Kalamazoo and drew very good crowds there. 24:12 I guess they talked it over and Kalamazoo became the Kalamazoo Lassies. They were still going strong after the 1954 season and we would have kept playing. We were doing very well financially. Interviewer: “What were the fans like? What do you remember about them?” They were great. You know how some people thought they would heckle and stuff like that, and that may have happened in the beginning, but like I say, I wasn’t there and fortunately or unfortunately, however you want to look at it, I missed a lot of that. I never met a fan that, you know, would heckle anyone or ridicule or make comments that we not complementary, but I thought our fans were great. 25:03 Interviewer: “And what kinds of people liked to come to the games? Were they older, younger, kids, men, women?” 7 �You had families coming to the games, you had men, you had young boys, teenagers and the young girls were very interested and their parents would come with them, so it was really a family atmosphere. Interviewer: “How long did you play or what years did you play?” I played the last five years of the league, 1950 through 1954. Interviewer: “Ok, and over the course of that time you moved around a certain amount? You mentioned having your team move from Muskegon to Kalamazoo, but did you play for other teams as well?” Yes I did, after we moved to Kalamazoo, it was a couple of weeks after that, I was told that Racine needed a couple of pitchers and that I was being sent up there because they were making trades for infielders, which Kalamazoo needed. That’s the way they, at that point in time, tried to keep the teams balanced, which would make for better baseball. 26:05 Make it more competitive rather than have one team loaded up like the Yankees you know, and they kept it pretty good that way. Interviewer: “Now when you went to Racine, was that when you really got to pitch more?” Yes, I was put right in the rotation up in Racine, so that was a good move for me at that time. Interviewer: “Do you remember any of the starts that you make or the games that you played when you first started?” I know I did pretty well—I pitched the—I started ten games after that, I had five wins and five losses, but that doesn’t really tell the story. I had pitched some good games, but I 8 �pitched against some pros, who were also very good pitchers, and I thought that was good for me at that time. 26:55 Interviewer: “Did you have good defense behind you?” Yes, in Racine I had very good defense behind me. In Kalamazoo we had a lot of rookies and I think the reason for that was, the man that took over was from the touring teams and he said that his girls on tour could compete in the league, so he picked up a lot of the girls that came up from the tour and made it into the league and he picked a lot of those up with me, someone who hadn’t played at all, but you know, it was just one of those things. It wasn’t a good offensive team basically and defensively we had some very good players. Interviewer: “But you would have some good infielders to spare to send over to Kalamazoo when they sent their extra pitchers.” Right Interviewer: “What kind of living arrangements did you have in these places?” We lived with host teams, with host families, sorry. That was a job for the chaperone. They would advertise for anyone who had extra rooms and would like to host a ball player and the chaperone would have to check them out and be sure they had the rooms and that they weren’t putting some of their own family member out. 28:17 I guess that was a big job for her, but in Kalamazoo I don’t think you could go wrong no matter who you stayed with. That was a fantastic town. Interviewer: “Now, was Racine different as a place to stay?” No, I stayed with a good host family there. The woman had an older son, he was in the navy and there was another ball player there at the time, so there were two of us staying 9 �at that house. I was just like—in Racine though it was harder to get around and you needed a car or had to know the bus routes and things like that. Interviewer: “When you were living in Racine, could you get a day and go down to Chicago or did you just pretty much stay there?” You pretty much stayed there. The only traveling I did was when we were traveling on the road. 29:01 Interviewer: “All right, and how did they get you from place to place when you were playing on the road?” Well, we used basically Greyhound buses or that type of bus to get us back and forth. When we got back to Kalamazoo, the following year, they had their own bus, so we had a little better bus ride because they took some seats out and put a refrigerator in and had it loaded with soda and then in the back they put a table and some of us liked to play cards. I liked to, but I couldn’t get to the back of the bus because I would get motion sickness, so I had to have the front seat. Interviewer: “So, did you spend the last part of one season with Racine?” Yes Interviewer: “Did they move you someplace else the next year? Then what happened?” 30:00 Over the winter Racine moved to Battle Creek, Michigan, so I reported to Battle Creek and I guess, maybe close to halfway through the season I was asked to go back to Kalamazoo and I said, “that’s fine with me, you want me to play here, you want me to play there, it doesn’t matter as long as I’m playing”, so I did, I went back to Kalamazoo. The next three years I stayed with Kalamazoo. 10 �Interviewer: “Now, while you were with Kalamazoo the second time, did you now get to start on a regular basis?” Oh yes, I was right—the starting pitcher right from the beginning. Interviewer: “What do you think was your best season?” My best season was my third season, 1952. I pitched twenty-four consecutive complete games. Interviewer: “Did you have a sore arm or anything else like that?” In the five years that I played, I never had a sore arm and never had any sores or problems physically. 31:04 Interviewer: “Twenty-four complete games, I guess back then you had major league pitchers who would do that kind of thing?” They did the same thing back then, they pitched the complete games unless they had to make a change, and today it’s just a six-inning game. Interviewer: “You held-up that much longer. Did any of the teams you were with manage to get to a championship game?” Kalamazoo won the championship the last year, 1954. Interviewer: “What do you remember about that season?” That was a very good team. The last two years they had, they might have even started the year before, they started bringing in some better ball players because two teams had dropped out of the league, so there were some good ball players around and you could pick-up good ball players and split them between the six teams that were left. We had Dotty Schroeder, which was one of them, and I’m trying to think, Fern Schollenberger played third base, I mean, these were girls that were excellent ball players. 32:10 Dotty 11 �Naum, she could pitch, she could play short stop, she was a catcher and she was just an all around good ball player. Dotty Schroeder was another excellent short stop and when I pitched against her in Fort Wayne I just admired the way she played and I was very happy to have her on the Lassies, so that helped a lot. Interviewer: “One of the things that characterized the league a little bit was that you had some people that were really good base stealers. They could get on base, now, what could you do to limit the damage? Did you have a pick-off move?” Well, there again, I was fortunate—before I came out to my first tryouts in South Bend there, three of my ball players from Staten Island were working out, two pitchers and a catcher, and like I said, my brother showed me how to throw the pitches and then I was just throwing the ball I wasn’t pitching. 33:14 The pitcher I’m going to talk about showed me how to hold runners on base and how to—there were two ways a base stealer could get a sign from you that he could go, and one was when you put your knee up off the mound or broke your hands from the glove and he said you have to learn to do both of them together because one or the other and their going to get a jump on you, so I learned that and I was very successful at holding runners on. To say no one ever stole, because they did, because we had some very good runners, but I learned that and he taught me how to follow through on a pitch, which is probably why I never had a sore arm. His name was George Bamberger who was the pitching coach for the Baltimore Orioles, was successful and also became a major league manager. 34:06 Interviewer: “He managed the Brewers.” The Brewers and the Mets. 12 �Interviewer: “You mentioned earlier something how you had gotten some pretty good coaching before you went off to spring training. Was that what you were talking about back there?” Yes-- I couldn’t have gotten better coaching, for pitching anyway. Interviewer: “So, did you have success at either picking runners off or holding them on?” Yeah, I had success at picking them off at first and I have to give my catcher the credit because they had rifle arms and by me getting the ball to the plate quickly and them having such good arms, we did throw a lot of good runners out. Interviewer: “So, did they learn maybe not to try to steal against you quite as much?” Possibly Interviewer: “Did you have much occasion to hit the ball?” Well, we batted, and we didn’t have designated hitters, so we got up and I didn’t have a great batting average. At one point in one season I was over three hundred and wow, it was even printed in the paper, but it didn’t last too long. 35:16 I could hit a ball, but I wasn’t a hitter. I could hit a lot of ground ball outs and I had my share of strikeouts, but I wasn’t a total flop. Interviewer: “Do you think that it helped you that you really learned to play just in baseball rather than softball?” Well, I learned softball first just playing in the streets and playing without gloves my hands took a little beating once in a while, but I think it helped because you had to teach yourself and learn as you went along. 13 �Interviewer: “But when you were playing with the boys, or whatever, was that always softball or was there a point when they were playing regular baseball?” Oh no, we played baseball and we would challenge other parts of the—of course there were a lot of younger people my age on the island at the same time in the area where I lived. It was very well populated and you could just go maybe two or three block and challenge another team and that’s when I had to pitch for the boys because I had the curve. 36:19 Interviewer: “when you played some of these other neighborhood teams, did any of them have girls playing for them?” No, when I see them now, or when I see them or when I seen “The League” when it first came out, actually when the movie first came out I would meet them maybe in the street or somewhere and they would tell me—especially one guy, he said he was so embarrassed when I struck him out because he didn’t strikeout that much, but now he says to his children and grandchildren, “she struck me out”. 36:55 Interviewer: “Now you played to the end—would you have kept playing if the league had continued?” Oh yes, I was just getting started at five years. I felt like I was just getting started and I would have played a good maybe five, six, seven years. I figured I would have at least that much. Interviewer: “How much were they paying you then?” Well, they started us out at fifty-five dollars a week and supposedly they had a maximum of a hundred dollars a week and after my third season, that’s what I was making. 14 �Interviewer: “Now, was that pretty good money at that point? Better than you might make if you were staying home with a job?” I was making twenty-five dollars working forty hours a week in an office in Manhattan, so fifty-five dollars was much better than that. Interviewer: “Now, if you hadn’t had the chance to go play ball what do you think you would have done in those years?” I did work in the off-season. I worked back in the city, but that became a hassle too because I had to take a bus from the island, a ferryboat, then the subway and the same thing coming back home and that could be like three hours traveling a day, so I probably would have looked for something right on Staten Island. 38:09 I did work in a supermarket when I went back to Kalamazoo and I could have done different kinds of job. I’ve worked in an office, I’ve worked in stores, and I would have found something. Interviewer: “In the last couple of seasons there, did you have any indication that the league was having trouble and that this might not go on forever?” Actually no, I thought just that they might build it up again and get another team and possibly build it up again. What was written in the paper about the league breaking was that they were just going to take a year off and try to find new cities and if they could find new cities it would be a novelty again in that city, and possibly draw enough people to support it, but it just never came about, so that was just the end of it. There was no discussion of any sort after that because they couldn’t find the cities. 39:08 Interviewer: “So, what did you do then once the league folded?” I went back home and I worked in a store on the island and my brother was stationed in Battle Creek and when he came home for the Christmas holidays that year with his wife, 15 �he told me that my good friend Dotty Naum got married and had a little baby. He said she would like for me to come and stay with her for a while, so I did, I went back to Battle Creek, I stayed with her because her husband was on the road a lot, and we use to go into Kalamazoo once in a while to visit the ball players because a lot of the players stayed in Kalamazoo and went to work there. Somebody said, “Why don’t you stay here and play softball? We have so many girls from the league on the teams”, and I said, “yeah, but I don’t have a job or anything”, and one girl said, “don’t worry, the sponsor will give you a job”, and that’s when I went to work in his store. 40:17 I was there for like a year and a half and I’d be getting calls from home like, “When are you coming home?” Finally I said, “I better go”. I was just going to go visit for a little while and eighteen months was a little more than that, so I went back home and I went back to work in the city, and like I said before, it just was too much of a hassle. Interviewer: “Then did you have a long term career or did you get married and have a family? What did you do?” I got married in 1959, so I didn’t have that long of a career. I did work a few years, until I became pregnant and then I gave up the job and stayed home to be a stay at home mom. Interviewer: “Where do you live now?” I live on Staten Island. Interviewer: “So, there are still some people there that you grew up with and you played ball against and all that kind of thing?” 41:08 Oh yes 16 �Interviewer: “Because you kind of stayed in the same place and some of the people were people you played ball with, did the people you knew, or worked with, did they know that you played professional baseball?” The people that I knew did and my sisters and brothers, if they had a friend and introduce me, they would tell them that I played professional baseball, and they would say, “oh, you played softball”, and my brother would say, “no, she played baseball”. They never heard of a women’s baseball league, just like I didn’t until they came to Staten Island, but it was hard for them to believe. Interviewer: “While you were playing, did you see yourself, or the league, in kind of way as kind of pioneering or doing something?” No, I didn’t, not at that point. I was having fun and I was loving it, and I never saw anything like that and I never expected what happened to be so big. 42:05 Interviewer: “As you kind of get into the seventies and the eighties and so forth, you get Title IX coming in and you get more emphasis now on getting girls sports and this kind of thing, did you pay attention to the news of that while it went on?” Yeah, because I became a coach for the girls at the Staten Island Little League, and I started with the ten to twelve age limit and then they had the senior girls and they would graduate and play from thirteen to fifteen and I would go on to that. I was coaching girls softball down at the little league for about twenty years. Interviewer: “And if you look at it now do you think the league itself, did it play a role, or set an example, or do we just realize now just how unusual it was?” 17 �We just realized since it’s taken off, like with the movie and everything, how important it was. We, like I said, all of us were playing there because we loved the game and we loved to play it. It was an opportunity, you know, that not too many people had. 43:15 Interviewer: “Did you get involved at all when they were making the movie and any of the event surrounding that? Did you get to do any of those things?” I did go out to Chicago when they had the actresses out there and we would—there would be about sixty of us out there and someone would be taking in field practice and some would be in the outfield and some would take batting practice and we did just a lot of different things. Then I was asked to go to the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown when they were there, and my husband just had a hip replaced and he couldn’t travel and I said, “I just can’t leave him home alone”, so my neighbors were telling me to go ahead and they would take care of him, but it’s not the same. 44:02 Interviewer: “Have you gone out to Cooperstown since then?” Oh, I go back there every year. Interviewer: “What did you think of the movie its self?” Well, when they first told us who was going to be in the movie, especially Madonna, I said, “What kind of a movie are you making here?” They said they wanted to make it a comedy and they wanted to make it interesting because to make a movie about baseball wasn’t going to be that interesting because there is just so much you can do. They wanted to make it a comedy and they did a very good job doing that. Interviewer: “Did you think that any of the actresses you were working with got pretty good at what they were doing?” 18 �Yeah, some of them were pretty good when I met them in Chicago and they worked hard at it, as a matter of fact, they told us they were picked for their athletic ability before they were picked for acting, 44:52 Interviewer: “Rosie O’Donnell, Madonna? I don’t know.” Well, not Madonna, but Rosie O’Donnell was a good athlete, and a couple of the others, but Madonna was—she came and she wasn’t supposed to be in the movie, she was supposed to do the background music, and she got caught up in all of it and she loved it. Being a good friend of Penny Marshall, she said she wanted to be in the movie, so I watched her try to catch and throw while we were out there and everybody’s calling attention to her, “look at her, she’s trying to throw and she throws like”. She doesn’t know how, but we found out she was a very good athlete in itself. She took very good care of herself, but she just didn’t play ball, but she got someone to teach her and she got a very good job out of it. 45:47 Interviewer: “When you think back over your professional playing career, are there particular moments or events that kind of stand out in your memory, that come back to you a lot?” I just think of the people that we stayed with and the people in Kalamazoo like the family I stayed with. The woman was a retired schoolteacher and the husband was still working at one of the plants in Kalamazoo. They had two grown sons who were out of the house, so that’s how they had the rooms, and we just got so close to them that, you know, we visited them when they moved to Florida. They wanted to meet my mother, so I took my mother to Florida to meet them. People in Kalamazoo were always having something for the team, either some sort of a cook out or barbeque or stuff like that. They were always 19 �doing things for you. You couldn’t help but like the whole city and I’m sure that went on in the other cities, also. 46:55 Interviewer: “If you look back on it now, how do you think your time in the baseball league wound up affecting you? Did you learn things or grow? Did you change at all because you had that experience?” I’ll tell you, I got over my shyness. I was very shy and of course with ten siblings, you could talk to them all, but it was—like in school it was difficult for me to get up and read a book report or something like that and it helped in that respect. Interviewer: “And do you think you learned things about people and dealing with people different from yourself and that sort of thing?” Oh sure, you learned that there are so many different types of people in different—I use to make fun of the way the girls from the south talked and they use to make fun of me. I said, “I don’t have an accent, you do”, but it was nice to meet people from all different parts of the country. That was an education in its self. Interviewer: “Anything else you would like to put on the record here before we close out the interview?” 48:03 I can’t really think, I think we covered just about everything. Interviewer: “You have a good story and you tell it well, so thank you very much for coming in and sharing it today.” You are very welcome, thank you. 20 �21 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_GElliott Title A name given to the resource Elliott, Gloria Cordes (Interview outline and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Elliott, Gloria Cordes Description An account of the resource Gloria Cordes Elliott was born in Staten Island, New York, in 1931. She grew up playing ball with her brothers, and first learned about the AAGPBL when they played an exhibition game on Staten Island in 1949. She tried out for the league before the game, and was invited to spring training the following year. She played as a pitcher for teams in Muskegon, Racine, Battle Creek and Kalamazoo, and at one point pitched twenty-four straight complete games. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Baseball players--Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-08-20 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6c0ecb4e240929a4129a026b5d02c2bd.mp4 5ef30b89d46c04d45c669a225ac95631 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3ff904e9446c9a15be6e2a12408ddbcf.pdf 9a3ffb57f57a646746703a4efac33e95 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW Women in Baseball Jean Faut Born: East Greenville, Pennsylvania, 1925 Resides: Rocky Hill, South Carolina Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, August10, 2010, Detroit, MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion. Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, January 28, 2011 Interviewer: “Now Jean, can you start by telling us some background information. Where and when were you born?” I was born in 1925 in East Greenville, Pennsylvania and, of course, that was before the Depression, but my father was a hunter and a fisherman so we did pretty good. This is during the war and I graduated from high school in 1942 and of course the war started in 1941, and after graduation everybody had a war job and you couldn’t get any gas, so you couldn’t do hardly anything. There were only two things to do, go swimming or play ball, so I did both. We had a men’s semi-pro baseball team in our town and they practiced two blocks from my house. 47:08 Of course, these are men that had a job in the daytime and they practiced in the evening, so I would go down there and practice with them. I started out shagging flies for batting practice and they realized I had a pretty good arm, so they started letting me throw batting practice and then the second baseman taught me all the pitches. Throwing overhand and the curves and the drops and the screwballs and change of pace, and I went on a couple of exhibitions with their team. That was when I was, oh lordy, fourteen, fifteen, something like that. 48:05 A few years later, in fact I was twenty-one, and they had tryouts in Allentown, Pennsylvania for the All American Girls league and I didn’t know anything about it , but I got a call, a telephone call from a scout, in our home town, and wanted to know if I was interested in 1 �playing in a professional league. I didn’t know what he was talking about. I had never heard of the league and it took me about ten seconds to say, “yes, I’m interested”, so we arranged right on the spot. 49:08 he sent me a train ticket, this was in 1946 and the league had started in 1943, but I had heard nothing about it, so I took this train ride and I was going to Pascagoula, Mississippi. They were going to expand the league, two teams I think. They had five hundred rookies come down there to try out for the league and none of the veterans came until a week later. We took over the barracks of a naval base and we played ball every day, we had a number on our back and it was fun and I survived the week, the two weeks. 50:09 The veterans came and some older directors to decide who they wanted, or if they wanted anybody. I was chosen by South Bend and that’s the way I got into the league. We barnstormed up north, played every day on the way up by the time the league started. The league started usually around May Day, it use to be May Day, I don’t know, we don’t celebrate that anymore I don’t think. The league ended around Labor Day. Interviewer: “When you were trying out, were you trying out as a pitcher or did they not let you pitch then?” No specific position unless it would have been third base. I played the infield. I was signed as a third baseman. 51:08 Interviewer: “When you were playing with the men, when you were playing back in Pennsylvania, did you pitch in the games or did you just practice?” No, we just—maybe I pitched a little at batting practice before the game started. I wasn’t actually in the game, but it was only exhibition I guess you might call that. Interviewer: “You did basically sign as a third baseman?” 2 �Yes Interviewer: “You played third, ok.” I don’t know that it said that on the contract. Interviewer: “It might not have been, but when they sent you to play on a team, so now you talked about barnstorming your way north. What kind of reception did you get when you went to a town, what happened?” 52:01 Well, we usually just got there in time to go play the ball game and we’d be playing against a competitive softball team. Actually, when I went to spring training tryout, I thought they were playing baseball and I get there and they’re playing softball, fast pitch softball, so I was surprised. We stopped at a city every day and played a game against some local team and they played our rules as far as the distance of the pitching and so forth. Interviewer: “The game you were playing was sort of in between traditional softball and men‟s baseball?” 53:08 Yes, you could steal—you could take a lead off first. I don’t know what else was different, but I had a good time I’ll tell you. It was fun. Interviewer: “Which team did they send you to?” South Bend Blue Sox and I played with them my whole career. Interviewer: “How long was your career?” Eight years Interviewer: “Do you remember your first game when you played for the Blue Sox?” 3 �My first home game for the season, I really can’t remember that far back, but you know, I had never played on a team, softball or baseball, so playing as a team mate was something new to me, so I had to learn a little bit about that as far as batting signals and stuff like that. 54:16 Interviewer: “How well did you do that first year? Did you play well” Yes, I think I did. I had a very strong arm and I think that’s why they put me at third base. I was always very competitive all my life and I played all sport in high school and also, the All American Games that were scheduled for South American in Rio de Janeiro we were going to, and then the war broke out. 55:12 I was scheduled to go with that team as a high jumper and of course, that was cancelled because of the war. Interviewer: “The Pan American Games do you think?” Yes Interviewer: “The Pan Am Games, right, ok. So, you really were an athlete?” Yes I was Interviewer: “In a lot of ways.” I played basketball, field hockey that was my favorite because it was a little rougher than the other games. Interviewer: “All right, in baseball were you a good hitter? Could you hit well?” Well, the first year I didn’t hit well because I had a sprained thumb the whole year, but after that I did and one year I had the highest average in the league, but I didn’t have enough games in to qualify as the highest hitter, but since I was a pitcher, well that year I was a pitcher. 56:16 Interviewer: “When did you start to pitch in the games?” 4 �Well, when the league introduced a live ball they moved the distances, the pitching distance and the base paths. Everything got moved back and that’s when they went from underhand pitching to sidearm, they use to call it, then I started pitching. When they really went to complete overhand pitching, I was home free. I knew all the pitches and they had a lot of trouble hitting off me and I used to—I played for Dave Bancroft one year, he managed our team a couple years and he would have a team meeting before every game and we would discuss the good hitters and their weaknesses and stuff like that. 57:29 I was a mathematical whiz in school and I got to where I could remember the rotation that I pitched to the best hitters and then I always changed it the next time they came up to bat, so there were little crazy things like that I use to do that gave me a little edge. 57:58 Interviewer: “Now, did you call your own pitches or did your catcher call the pitches?” The catcher called the pitches, but if I didn’t think it was right I shook it off and we did something else. Interviewer: “Did you have a particular player that was your catcher most of the time or did they change every year?” No, I also played for, I think it was Dave Bancroft, but one of the managers asked me who I wanted catching for me and I chose Shirley Stovroff. She had a very good arm and could throw it to second and possible get the runner from trying to steal, so she was my main catcher. 58:54 5 �Interviewer: “Now, would you try to pick off the runners? In modern baseball pitchers have pickoff moves, they try to thow out the runner themselves. Would you do that, or would you do things to keep them close to the base?” Well, I always had my eye on them and I would try to pick them off, yeah. Interviewer: “Did you have one season as a pitcher that you thought was particularly good? What was your best season do you think?” Well, that would have been 1952. I had twenty-two wins and two losses, or it was twenty wins and two losses. 59:58 That was my best year and—I had a friend and after I stopped playing baseball I—you know you never lose your competitive spirit and it really works on you, you need to do something. I went bowling, I went to a bowling center and I went out on the bowling tour for quite a few years and there I met some of the ball players, so this one gal, Jean Havlish, she played for Kenosha in the league, she told me the gals would ask about my pitching, and she told them that their manager, every time they knew I was pitching, he would call a special batting practice to get ready for me. 1:02 Then they said, “After you had the batting practice, did you hit her?” I’m not going to say the right word, but she said, “heck no, we couldn’t hit her at all”, so I’m just referring to how they felt about the pitching. 1:27 Interviewer: “Well, when we interview other players, who played when you did and we ask them who the best players were or who was the pitcher you didn‟t want to see, your name comes up a lot. Now, did you throw a no hitter in your career?” I had quite a few no hitters, but my biggest accomplishment was, I pitched two perfect games, but you have to remember, I had a good team behind me. 2:03 6 �Interviewer: “So you had good defensive players?” Yes Interviewer: “Who do you think were the best players you played with? Who were the best people on your team?” On our team? Interviewer: “Yes” Well, Betsy Jochum was good. She just played a few years after I started and Liz Mahon, she was very good. I can’t really pick them out because they were all so good. Betty Wagner was a great outfielder and then she started pitching and was picking them off at first. Interviewer: “A left hander, yeah, will do that. 3:00 Tell me a little bit about some of the spring training. You mentioned going down to Pascagoula one year, did you make the trip to Cuba?” Yes I did Interviewer: “Tell me about that year.” Well, of course the Brooklyn Dodgers were there because of Jackie Robinson and they left the day before we flew in. When we had spring training the whole league would train together, it was not an individual team. According to the reports, they were waiting for the girls and we packed the stands every night. They loved to watch us play and practice. 4:00 In the games they would be walking around in the stands with a roll of money, making bets. Cuba was either—either you were very rich or you were poor and we stayed in a hotel that was right at the harbor and Morro Castle was right across the water and we would have breakfast down on the first floor, right inside windows that were wide 7 �open. These women use to come with their—carrying a little child kind of looking for a handout and we’d hand them some milk or something and then they would drink it and not give it to the child, but those are just some of the things I remember about it. 5:00 One thing I do remember is I was on the sixth floor, It was the Strat—I can’t remember right now, but my room was on the sixth floor and we were not allowed to take the elevators, so I’m crawling up the steps, six flights, because during spring training the back of your legs gets so sore and I had no trouble losing twenty pounds in two weeks and in spring training it was just automatic because that’s all you did is play ball and get lots of exercise. The people were very, very interested in the girls and the league picked up nine Cuban girls to play in our league. 5:57 Interviewer: “All right, why wouldn‟t they let you use the elevator?” Because you’re in spring training and you’re supposed to walk. They always wanted us to do it the hard way. Interviewer: “When you were in Cuba, did they have any special events for you? Did you do anything other than just play ball?” We just played ball, we really didn’t have any special events. That was in 1947 and after that season was over we went back on a tour and we didn’t have all those rules. Then we did all kinds of things, we went to the beach and we walked the streets. Interviewer: “Where did you go on the tour?” We went to Havana for a week and then there was some kind of problem with the contracts with the cities and then we went home, but later on they finished the tour. 7:13 They went to—I didn’t go back the next time. They went to cities in South America and Central America and they ended up in Mexico City. 8 �Interviewer: “That was the Central American tour.” Yes Interviewer: “When you came into the league, what kinds of rules and regulations did they have for the players? Did you have to do everything they did in the movie or not all of that stuff?” Well, first of all we lived in private homes, so we really didn’t have transportation. A typical day was to get up and have breakfast and be at practice at ten o’clock and you practiced until noon. 8:12 Then you go home and try to get some rest because you have to be back on the field by five o’clock. We played all night games, double headers on Sundays and holidays, so if you had a double header it’s late and if you’re lucky to find something open, you get something to eat before you go back home and go to sleep and do that thing all over again. I mean, baseball, if you play, you sign a professional contract and that’s what you do, you play baseball and you don’t have time to do anything else. 9:01 Interviewer: “What about when you were on the road? How did that work?” We stayed in hotels then and traveled by bus and sometimes long bus trips. I played for South Bend and there were teams in Wisconsin and it would probably take us six hours to get there, but once you’re there—you’re on the road for two weeks when you go on the road and then you’re home for two weeks and then you’re back on the road for two weeks, but you didn’t have that practice session in there. I don’t remember practicing in the daytime when we were on the road because we’d had a long bus ride or something. 10:02 But, we had rules; you had to be in your room by a certain time. Whether anybody broke those rules I don’t know. I was a baseball person. I wasn’t interested in 9 �going someplace and have a couple beers or something like that, but I know some of them did and that’s what the chaperone was for. We had chaperones that kept a record of who was in what room and we’d have bed check to make sure you’re in there when you should be. Interviewer: “Did you like the chaperones? Did the chaperones do a good job?” They carried the first aid kit around. 11:02 They did make arrangements for people if they had a problem you know. Some of the girls came in very young and she sort of had somebody keep an eye on them and help them along and if somebody got hurt, of course , she helped with the problem. Interviewer: “You were a little bit older than some of them.” Yeah, I was twenty-one when I started. Interviewer: “You were talking about playing every day and playing double headers. When you had a double header, would you play both games?” When I played third base I played both games, but as a pitcher I never played two games. I guess some pitchers did, but I didn’t. 12:01 Interviewer: “Did the Blue Sox ever win a championship while you were playing with them?” Yeah, we won the championship two years. I believe it was 1951 and 1953. Interviewer: “In 1953 Grand Rapids won.” It must have been 1952 then. I don’t remember, but we won it twice. Interviewer: “Do you remember anything about pitching in those championship series? Does that standout in your mind at all or were those just other games?” 10 �Well, the one that really stand out is, one year we had some players quit like a week before the playoffs, so here we are now with twelve players and everybody gave us up, but somehow your competitive spirit makes you fight a little harder and get more determined. 13:25 I can remember, I pitched three games in that series and the final game was up at a strange field because it had run late and was supposed to be in Rockford, Illinois, but there was something scheduled, so we had to go to a strange field and it had no fence, so we hit very well Interviewer: “We were talking about one of your championship seasons when you team was short handed. You pitched three games, was that a seven game series or did it go seven games? Five or six?” I think so. 14:22 Interviewer: “Were the games every day?” Oh yeah, but getting back—the third game I pitched, we went to this strange field and didn’t have—we had rules on how far the fences could be or they had to be so far, so that was out of the picture because there were no fences, so we got—we hit quite a few triples. The last one, the last time I was at bat I could have made a home run. I stopped between third and home, I was so tired, I went back and sat on third base. 15:15 That’s how tired I was. I was playing every day and that long in the season and by the time the season ends, you know you’ve had a strenuous summer, but we loved it anyway. Interviewer: “What would you do in the off season? You play the game and do you go work somewhere?” Well, I always had a job. I was working for the U.S. Rubber Co. in Mishawaka, Indiana and I had several jobs off-season. 11 �Interviewer: “But around South Bend, you didn‟t go back to Pennsylvania or anything like that?” No I didn’t and by that time I had married and had a son. 16:23 Interviewer: “Now, that was a little bit unusual for the players and you don‟t have to talk about your personal life more than you feel like it. You were married to someone who was your manager at some point, right?” Well, he became manager and I wasn’t very happy about that because it did cause problems, but it didn’t change my life any. I mean as far as—I still played ball, but I had a lot of responsibility other than playing ball. Interviewer: “Now, you had a child in the middle of your baseball career. Were you playing while you were pregnant, or did you stop, what did you do?” 17:12 Well, I didn’t play until—I missed part of a season after I had Larry. I had a woman take care of him when we went on the road and then she took care of him during home games, so it probably wasn’t fair to my son, but how do you do that? I mean, you do what you have to do and when he was about five, no it couldn’t have been that-- yeah, the last year he was five and he went on the bus with us. 18:23 I think he only did that one year, I can’t remember, maybe it was two years. That was kind of a convenient thing, I mean it was nice to have him with me. Interviewer: “When people watch the movie, “A League of Their Own”, one of the things they notice is there‟s a player who has her son with her and that kind of thing and people think—“ That was not my son. That was the son of the center fielder for Grand Rapids. Interviewer: “Ah” 12 �People ask me if my son was the brat in the movie and I always tell them, “no way”. Interviewer: “But, such things did occasionally happen. Some of the other things in the movie didn‟t ever happen, but this one sometimes did. 19:17 Now, over the course of the time that you were in the league, you talked a little bit about some of the changes that took place. They changed the distances in the base path; they got closer and closer to the men‟s game. Now, the other thing that happened was the league began to lose some of its popularity. Did you notice that in the last couple years you were playing?” Oh yes, but see, I was never involved in the business end of it and I knew—well, the boys were coming home from the service and the boys were buying cars, taking trips, and so the attendance went down and at the same time television came along. 20:23 Actually, I always felt like they should have promoted that end of it and it might have survived the problem and the reason—when the service men came home and bought the cars, that’s when they started building motels and people started traveling, so our game attendance was affected by people starting to travel, but we had very, very enthusiastic fans and in fact, some of them would drive to away games. I don’t know where they got the gas, but they got it. 21:14 Interviewer: “After the end of WWII, things eventually loosened up, so it was a little easier to get gas maybe in 1949 than in 1946 or something. What kind of relationship did the team have with the town of South Bend? Did a lot of people in South Bend support the team or promote it?” Oh yes, yes, the first manager I had was Chet Grant and he was not a baseball man, he was a football player from Notre Dame and in fact he was quarterback of Notre Dame 13 �when they introduced the pass, so that’s going way back. He graduated from Notre Dame and he was a journalist and he always said, when he was talking about the league, “You have to see it to believe it and then you still didn’t believe it”. He always said that in his—he was famous for saying that about the girls. 22:24 Interviewer: “Do you know why you had a football player for a manager? How he got that job?” I have no idea, I have no idea, I liked him. Interviewer: “Was he good at coaching? Would he help teach the players how to play or did he not do that?” I don’t think he did too much teaching, but as far as teamwork and so forth, I thought he was good. Of course, he was my first manager and anything was great in those days. Interviewer: “When they signed you, how much did they pay you? What was your salary?” I started at fifty-five dollars a week. Interviewer: “What did you get up to?” 23:15 A hundred and twenty-five a week and besides that, when I started playing they were paying meal money on the road. We got six dollars a day for food and in those days you could eat for six dollars a day. You don’t have time to go shopping and I sent my mother fifty dollars a week home to start a bank account and that was a lot of money in those days. Interviewer: “Yes it was” 14 �Financially it was great and it was wonderful for the girls to go to college. The timing was right and a lot of them did go to college and get professional jobs after they graduated from college. 24:19 Interviewer: “If you hadn‟t gone to play baseball, what do you think you would have done?” If I hadn’t gone to play baseball? I would have ended up in college and somehow or other I would have gone. I was a honor student, but we had no money, so the baseball career was great for myself and my family. Interviewer: “Now, you quit the league before it ended. You went through 1953 and then you stopped?” Well, if you recall, I married the manager and it caused problems and eventually it just didn’t get to be fun for me anymore, so I thought—I always felt that when it’s not fun anymore, I’m going to stop and that’s what I did. 25:28 Interviewer: “Did you go to college after that? What did you do after you left the team?” I had some pretty good jobs and the one I like the best—I was hired as administrative secretary of mosquito biology training program at the University of Notre Dame financed by the National Institute of Health. It was a five year program and I ran it, I worked for five professors and it was extremely interesting. 26:19 Notre Dame is the mosquito center of the world and they maintain all species from all over the world, so most of the students that entered the program were graduates form foreign countries, eighty percent of them were foreign. My main job was to computerize all the research that had been done on mosquitoes up to date. If somebody wanted to study a certain species that 15 �carried a certain disease, they would write to me and I would print up everything that had ever been done on that disease or that mosquito species. I would get that printed out and send them. 27:36 We maintained the eggs in the laboratories, in the freezer. You put the eggs on the paper toweling and put it in the freezer and you can keep them forever and all you have to do if you’re going to hatch them is to put them in water and they’ll hatch. I would send them these eggs and the printout and they would write back and thank me for doing six months of their research for them. 28.14 I loved that program, it was a five year program and when Richard Nixon became president, he cancelled all training programs throughout the country, so there went my job. From there I went to Miles Laboratories and worked in the research there. Interviewer: “All right, when you look back over your baseball career, how do you think that affected you? You said a little bit about that, but do you think it changed you or you gained something from it?” Oh yes, it was a wonderful experience and you got to meet a lot of people and make friends with a lot of new people. You’re exposed to a lot and when you apply for jobs they respect the fact that you were a professional and I really, really loved the experiences. 29:42 And it was probably the best eight years of my life. Interviewer: “After you finished playing, people did know that you were a ball player because a lot of the players never talked about it?” No, I just—when you apply for jobs you have to put down what you’ve been doing and your education and stuff like that. 16 �Interviewer: “I guess in that area there would have been people around South Bend who remembered, „Ok, that‟s the Blue Sox”, and they would know that, at least that generation would know that.” 30:21 I did some crazy things in the off-season to try to keep in shape. I remember shoveling snow for this one store, so people could park and stuff and they always asked the owner, “Why do you have that girl out there shoveling snow?” He would have to tell them that she wanted the exercise. I did little crazy things like that. Interviewer: “At the time you were playing, did you see yourself as being any kind of a pioneer or this league as starting anything important or were you just playing ball?” Could you repeat that question? Interviewer: “Today we look at the league as being pioneers and kind of the first women to go and do this kind of thing. Did you think of that at all while you were playing?” No, never, we were having a good time and a lot of them said they would have done it for nothing, but the money was nice. 31:34 People who have jobs and they don’t like their job, I mean, I feel sorry for them because it’s your life and if you don’t like your job, you’re depressed, so to do something that you really love to do is a great way to live. Interviewer: “And it certainly makes for a good story, so I would just like to thank you for coming and telling it to me today.” Thank you for having me. 32:13 17 �18 �19 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_JFaut Title A name given to the resource Faut, Jean (Interview transcript and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Faut, Jean Description An account of the resource Jean Faut was born in East Greenville, Pennsylvania, in 1925. As a teenager, she shagged flies and pitched batting practice for a men's semipro team, and was spotted by an AAGPBL scout and recruited into the league. She played from 1946 through 1953 for the South Bend Blue Sox. She was initially signed as a third baseman, but had such a good arm that she was converted to a pitcher, and became one of the most dominant pitchers in the league. She threw several no-hitters and two perfect games, and helped her team to win two championships. She was married and had a son while she was in the league, and when he was old enough, he came with her on road trips Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Baseball players--Indiana Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-08-06 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/512de0c2fbf48375bcfb8050761f04c0.m4v d5b4439250e76137a05c1815995603ab https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1c106802744a02352d7c6210853ec0aa.pdf 0e68cc9612006380fc0ccab6af5bbd8d PDF Text Text Fidler, Merrie Grand Valley State University All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans History Project Interviewee’s Name: Merrie Fidler Length of Interview: (01:35:18) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Chelsea Chandler Interviewer: “Okay, so, Merrie, just a little bit of background on you. Where and when were you born?” I was born in Weed, California, which is about ninety miles south of the Oregon border, on October 31st, 1943. Interviewer: “All right. Now did you grow up in northern California?” Yes, I grew up about—Well, in Dunsmuir, California, which is about thirty miles south of Weed, and then when I was seven, I moved to the Redding area, which is about fifty miles south of Dunsmuir. So all in the northern California area. (1:00) Interviewer: “All right, and what did your family do for a living when you were growing up?” My dad was a conductor on the railroad. Dunsmuir was a turnaround for the SP in northern California. And my mother didn’t work. And she just—Well, wasn’t just a housekeeper, but, you know, she raised us kids. Interviewer: “She wasn’t paid. She worked, but she wasn’t paid.” She worked, but she wasn’t paid. Yeah. Interviewer: “Right. Okay, and when did you finish high school?” I finished high school in June of 1961. Interviewer: “Okay, and then what did you do once you graduate?” Well, when I graduated, I went to college, and I started out at a junior college in the Redding area. And then I decided to go to a bible college in Los Angeles, and I was there three years. And I decided that I wasn’t sure I wanted to be a teacher. (2:00) So I quit school and landed in the Sacramento area where my sister lived and got a job as a secretary at the PE department at the University of California at Davis, which is just outside of Sacramento. 1 �Fidler, Merrie Interviewer: “Okay. Now in your early life, did you play sports, or did you get out a lot, or did you develop that interest later?” No. My dad and brothers—I had two brothers, and they were eight and ten years older than I. And my dad was a rabid Yankees fan. And so we listened to Yankees games on the radio from as early as I can remember. And my dad and two brothers played on a city league team when my brothers got old enough to do that. And I remember as about a four-year-old going to the city park every Sunday afternoon or to one of the neighboring city parks to watch Dad or the boys play baseball. And so I grew up with sports, and as soon as I went to school, I played ball on the playgrounds. And my brothers had played catch with me as I grew up and showed an interest. And so when I was in the first grade, I was out on the playground playing with the older kids, and they were sometimes amazed that I could hit the ball almost as well as they could. So I grew up playing volleyball, basketball, and softball through school. Interviewer: “Okay. Well, when you were training to be a teacher, were you training to do PE or just general elementary or something else?” (4:04) I trained to—I majored in physical education and planned to teach either high school or college. Interviewer: “Okay. And so you got sort of sidetracked, but now we’ve gotten you—You’re now working as a secretary in the PE department, and then how do you move on from there? I mean, eventually you get more education.” Well, I—My office was right above the swimming pool, and I worked for the—I did work for several of the coaches as well as the intramural sports program. And one day I was looking at the swimming coach, and I’m watching him coach the swimming team, and I thought, “You know, I don’t think I want to be a secretary the rest of my life.” So I went back to school and got my BA and teaching credential, and a flyer came across the desk for a job at—for an intramural assistant at the University of Massachusetts Amherst. And I was graduating—getting my teaching credential at the end of that semester, and so—And I was very familiar with intramurals, having done all of the administrative stuff for it, and also while I was back at school, I had gone to working as an intramural assistant part-time. And I flew back and had an interview, and they hired me. And when I was there, I could work on a master’s degree as a staff member without a lot of expense, and I thought, “Well, I should take advantage of that opportunity.” And I did, and at that time UMass Amherst had a sport history track in the physical education master’s degree program. (6:08) And science was never one of my strong points, so I opted for the sport history. And I took a course called “American Women in Sport” as part of that. Interviewer: “Okay. Now what year was that?” And that was in 1971. And part of the assignment for that course was to go through the Readers’ Guide to Periodical Literature and find all of the articles dealing with American women in sport that we could. And in the process of that, I found a little 1943 Time magazine article about a women’s professional softball league created by Philip Wrigley. Well, I knew about Philip Wrigley, and I thought, “Boy, I’ve been playing softball all these years, and I never heard about this league.” Of course, I was way off on the West coast, and this was in the Midwest. So I talked 2 �Fidler, Merrie to one of my doctoral student colleagues and asked him, “You know, how would I find out more about this league?” And he said, “Well, why don’t you write to the league city newspaper sports editors and see if there’s anybody around that remembers anything?” And so at that time I only knew that there were four teams in the league, and so I wrote. And the sports editor from South Bend—his name was Joe Boland—he had been the scorekeeper and also a—on the board of the South Bend Blue Sox team. And he responded and said, “Well, you need to get in touch with Jean Faut Winsch,” who I learned later was one of the best overhand pitchers in the league. (8:11) And so I contacted her and asked her if I could stop and interview her on the way home from Christmas vacation that year. And she said yes, and so I did that. And in the process of interviewing her, she brought out nine three-inch-wide binders of league and team board meeting minutes that one of the directors—one of the presidents of the South Bend team had put together. And I looked through those, and I said, “You know, Jean, there’s no way I can do justice to these on a weekend. Would you trust me to take them with me?” And bless her heart. She did. And I used those. There was a lot of information, especially the league board meeting minutes. A lot of information in those that I was able to use in the book. And that was the starting point of my research, and so I wound up doing my master’s degree—my master’s thesis on the—Well, my thesis is entitled, “The Development and Decline of the All-American Girls Baseball League.” Interviewer: “Okay, and what kind of range of research did you do for the thesis? I mean, you had her materials. Did you contact other people or other teams or things like that?” Well, while I was at South Bend, Jean arranged interviews with me for—with Chet Grant who had been a manager of the South Bend team, with Lucille Moore who had been a chaperone, with Ed DesLauriers who had been a business manager, and with Lucille Moore who had been a chaperone, and also with Lib Mahon and Betsy Jochum who still lived in South Bend and had been players. (10:10) And so I interviewed them, and in the process of the interview with Chet Grant, he said, “Well, you ought to get in touch with Arthur Meyerhoff.” And at that time I didn’t know who Arthur Meyerhoff was, but Chet said, “Well, he worked with Wrigley and getting the league started, and he ran the league for a few years.” And he gave me his contact information. And so I wrote a letter to Mr. Meyerhoff and asked if I could arrange an interview with him. And I believe that was the next Christmas vacation. I went home to California, and he lived down by San Diego and was there at that time. And so I drove down and interviewed him, and in the course of the conversation, he said, “Well, you know, you really ought to come to my office at the Wrigley building in Chicago and go through my files.” And so I believe it was the next summer—It may have been two summers. I don’t recall at the moment. But the following summer I went to his office in the Chicago building. I spent a week or eight-hour days going through his files on the All-American League, and it was really nice because he had this nice, big desk in his office, you know, and his secretaries would bring file drawers in to me, and I’d go through them. And he let me copy things, and if there were extra copies of things, I could take one. And so I just kind of fell into a lot of wonderful primary material for my thesis. (12:08) Interviewer: “So what was the reaction of these people as you’re contacting them? Were they surprised anyone was interested? Did they think it was about time?” They were mostly surprised, you know, and the common question is, “Well, why are you researching this lady?” And I said, “Well, I just was fascinated by the fact that there was this 3 �Fidler, Merrie professional softball league that I had never heard of.” And I had always played softball and, you know, been a baseball fan, and so it just captured my interest. Interviewer: “Okay, now you—So did it take sort of several years to do the thesis, or…?” Yes, I was working full-time and taking classes part-time, and in the meantime I had moved to St. Paul, Minneapolis—St. Paul, Minnesota where I got another job as an intramural sports assistant. And the reason I moved from UMass to Minnesota was because the professor I was working closely with had gotten a job there, and I wanted to finish up my work with him. And that was beneficial because in one of the PE department meetings, they had the intramural folks in there, too, and so some of the women on the PE staff, you know, got together and were talking. And so I gravitated there, and so they asked me what I was doing my thesis on, and I said, “Well, I’m doing it on the All-American Girls Baseball League.” (14:00) And unbeknownst to me, Nancy Mudge Cato, who had played in the league, was there in that group and said, “Oh, I played in that league.” And so I got to interview her, and she then put me in touch with Jean Cione who was working at the University of Michigan who I later arranged to interview, too. So that’s kind of how I met some of the players that I was able to interview. Interviewer: “Okay, now at the time you’re doing this work in the 70s, was there any kind of organization? Did the players have an association then?” No, they didn’t. They were all—A lot of them were kind of freshly retired, but they hadn’t—And they kept in touch with individuals, but there was no group organization. But I had contacted— been able to contact Marilyn Jenkins in Michigan, and she had put me in touch with June Peppas who was also in Michigan and a couple of other players. And it was fortunate that I had a contact with June Peppas. When I finished my thesis, I sent a copy of it to all of the players that I had interviewed, and so Marilyn obviously got a copy of it. And she shared it with June, and June wrote me a letter one time and said, “Would it be all right—”And June was a printer. And she asked if it would be okay if she made copies of it and shared it with other players, and I said, “Sure.” Because I was happy to get it out there, you know. And then it was June—And I don’t know if my thesis was the stimulant or not or had a part in it, but June was the one who started the newsletter with the purpose of having a national reunion. (16:13) And so I always like to think that my thesis had a little bit to do with it, but I don’t know that it did. Interviewer: “Okay. Yeah. When did they have their first reunion?” Their first reunion was in 1982. It was July of 1982. Interviewer: “Okay, and then can I go back, I guess, to your career trajectory? Okay, you’ll finish the thesis. Now do you go on to an academic position at that point, or what do you do next?” Well, when I was just about to finish writing my thesis, my dad had a serious heart attack, and so I told my mom I’d come home and help out. And she says, “Don’t you come before you finish that thesis.” Because she knew that once I got away that I probably wouldn't. And so I said, “Okay. I’ll finish it this summer and then come home.” And so I did that. And she was a realtor, 4 �Fidler, Merrie and I helped her out in her office for a little bit and did substitute teaching. And through the substitute teaching, I got a job at a high school nearby—Anderson Union High School—and taught there for twenty-seven years and retired in 2003. Interviewer: “Okay. Now you did eventually, I guess—Let’s back up a little bit. So you had made your contacts with the league. So then did you continue to stay in touch with those people and communicate with them?” Yeah, I did. I was able to attend that first reunion and met some more of the players there, and I even spoke to the group about my dream—was that they would establish a centralized location for their memorabilia and documents and stuff like that. (18:15) And Dottie Collins was there, and she wrote me later that she shared that dream. And so she, you know, asked me if I was going to do anything about that. And I was in California, and I said, “No, it would be better if you did that someplace that was centralized to the league.” And so the players started getting together then in little mini reunions and started talking about, you know, what to do, and then Sharon Roepke had kind of a similar experience to mine. She heard about the league from a friend and went to the Hall of Fame to find out more and found out that the Hall of Fame didn’t have anything. And so then she made it her objective to get the Hall of Fame to recognize the league, and in the process she asked me for a copy of my thesis, which I gave her. But she was able to travel to the different cities where players were, and she located them through the phone books and tax records and that sort of thing. And she actually traveled to where they were to interview them and all. And then they started having mini reunions together. And in one of those mini reunions, Ruth Davis from South Bend—she had been a bat girl for the Blue Sox and had a contract to play in the 1955 season, and, of course, the league ended in 1954—but she was at that meeting, and she said, “Well, let’s have a national reunion.” (20:30) And everybody said, “Well, that’s a good idea, but it’s going to be a lot of work.” And Ruth said, “Well, it can’t be too hard.” And she arranged the first reunion. Well, when they all got together then—And then they started talking about being recognized in the Hall of Fame, and Sharon Roepke was at that first reunion and started, you know, stirring the pot for that. Well, they finally were able to do that and get the league recognized in the fall of 1988, and I was able to go to that reunion. And then, of course, they started the newsletter, and I wrote some little articles for the newsletter. And then when the Players Association organized, you know, I always paid dues so I could keep the newsletters coming. And I wasn’t able to go to any other reunions because most of them were held in the fall of the year when I teaching and coaching. But when I retired in 2003, I said, “Well, one of the things I want to do is go to another All-American reunion.” And that year the reunion was in Syracuse, New York, and one of the—And that’s where I met Jane Moffet, who was on the board of directors at the time, and Dolly White. (22:09) And Jane and Dolly encouraged me to see if I could get my thesis published because they had read it. And so one of the activities we did during that reunion was to go to the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown and see the women in baseball display there and some other things, of course. And so I talked to the research librarian there, Tim Wiles, and asked him if he knew any publishers that I could approach with my thesis. And he recommended a couple. And so I wrote to McFarland, and they agreed to publish it. So I did some additional research on the Players Association at that point because I was impressed with how much they had come together and some of the things they had accomplished. And so I added more information, and then, in the meantime, I’d been in contact with other players and so I incorporated some information from interviewing them. 5 �Fidler, Merrie Interviewer: “Because the book itself seems pretty comprehensive at least to the outsider. It’s certainly valuable when you’re trying to make a documentary about the subject. But yeah. Because you cover very carefully the history of the league in a lot of dimensions and what’s going on, and so it’s sort of the starting point for anybody doing research. Occasionally, some of my own students. Yeah, so we appreciate your having done that. Now there were some other things getting published. So Sharon Roepke—Did she have a book, too?” She had a small book—more pamphlet-sized—that she did on the history of the league. (24:02) But she didn’t do a big one. Her focus after the players were recognized by the Hall of Fame was in making baseball cards for the players, and so she started that effort. Interviewer: “Right. Okay, and then one of the, I guess, sons or nephews of one of the players made his own documentary back in the 80s.” Yeah, Kelly Candaele. Interviewer: “And that, in turn—Now was that what got Penny Marshall’s attention originally?” Yes, that was aired on PBS at least in the Los Angeles area and maybe nationally. I’m not for sure. But an assistant of Penny Marshall’s saw it, and Penny Marshall was a big Yankees fan also. Baseball fan. And she saw it and then decided that she wanted to make a movie of it. And that process went in a little bit of a roundabout way, but eventually she wound up as director of A League of Their Own. Interviewer: “Okay, and what kind of impact did the film have on the association?” Well, in one fell swoop, it informed the United States and Canada and the rest of the world as it went to those countries that there was a women’s professional baseball league that existed during World War II. And the film was pretty historically accurate. There were some scenes that were entertainment, but it was fairly historically accurate. And it was well-done. (26:04) And it captured the interest of anybody who went to see it. And it became one of those films that you go back and see again and again, and when it’s on TV, you watch it again. And so—And it’s still, you know—You ask somebody if they’ve seen A League of Their Own. They go, “Oh, yes, that was one of my favorite movies.” Interviewer: “Yeah, yeah, and even a lot of younger people have seen it, so it’s still—It has legs, if you will.” And I’ve heard that there’s a possibility they’ll start showing it again on the big screen. Interviewer: “Okay. Let’s see. Now did the film—Did that bring in more of the former players to the association?” 6 �Fidler, Merrie Well, what it did is it made people aware of them, and then they started talking about—to others that they had been players in that league. And yes, it was baseball, not softball. And then they began getting the recognition that they should have had much earlier. And people began seeking autographs. They were invited to Major League parks to throw out the first pitch. And people began having, you know—Local baseball and softball teams would ask them to come and speak. And so they began getting a lot of recognition and deservedly so. Interviewer: “All right. Now let’s—Going to back up a little bit now to kind of—sort of talk about the league’s history itself. Now you mentioned early on—You talked about Philip K. Wrigley. And can you kind of just—sort of tell the basic story there? What happened and how the league came about to begin with?” (28:07) Yes. World War I, of course, started in 1941. World War II. I’m sorry. World War II started in 1941, and Major Leaguers and Minor Leaguers started being drafted or signing up for the war. And, of course, Wrigley—Landis, the commissioner of baseball, made his appeal to President Roosevelt about if baseball should go forward or not, and the president said yes. He thought it was good for the country to have that kind of entertainment. But then, in the fall of 1942, the War Department was going to have a big manpower push in the summer of 1943, and they told the Major League Baseball owners this and that there was a good chance that Major League baseball would have to be postponed for that season at least. And Wrigley was a very—I can’t think of the word I want to use right now, but he was the type of businessman that was very creative. Entrepreneur. And he knew that if baseball was postponed that his Wrigley Field both in Los Angeles and in Chicago would be empty, and there were a lot of jobs there. And so he was—He wondered what he could use those fields for to keep them up and running. And so he had some people that he asked to research. And in the 30s especially and early 40s, softball was a very popular sport for both men and women, and the amateur softball associations at that time promoted women’s softball just the same as they did men’s. (30:25) They had city, district, regional, and national competitions for both, so the skill of the woman players was very good because, you know, those that went to the national playoffs, they had to be good to get there. And in the—at the end of the softball seasons, Wrigley had his field available for the championship games for the city. And so he knew softball was—And he would—It would fill the stands and for both the men and the women. And so the committee came up with—that softball would be a good alternative for baseball in the fields. And so he came up with the idea. “Well, let’s organize a women’s professional softball league.” And he originally was going to put it in the large baseball diamonds but decided for whatever reason to keep it in the smaller cities where war production was going on to provide recreation for the war workers. And his advertising agent, Arthur Meyerhoff, was one of the people he utilized to go to the cities that he had chosen and, you know, work with the businessmen there to back—help back the teams. (32:17) And so he started the All-American Girls Softball League. That was the title, but the rules of play were those of baseball because he thought that baseball was a better spectator sport than softball because there was more pitching. There was leading off and stealing. And although the basepaths and pitching distance were shorter than baseball’s regulation field, they used baseball bats, all players used gloves, which was not the case with softball at the time, there were nine fielders instead of ten, which was common to softball at the time, they could lead off and steal—he expanded the basepaths longer than those of softball so that leading off and stealing was allowed—and the pitching motion—the rules for the pitching motion in softball—in his softball 7 �Fidler, Merrie and in baseball were the same. And so from the beginning the league played baseball rules except for the underhand pitch. And it’s interesting to read the baseball pitching rules because they don’t stipulate how the ball has to be delivered. Interviewer: “And there have always been some underhand pitchers around, some of them very successful. So that’s within the framework of the rules.” Yes, that’s within the framework of the rules. So I like to point out that the league played baseball from the beginning, and as time progressed, they lengthened the basepaths and the pitching distance. And in 1948 the pitching style became overhand. (34:02) And the fans then recognized that. “Oh, yeah, this is baseball. It’s not softball.” Interviewer: “Now what size ball did they use when they started?” Well, they started out with a twelve-inch softball, and in a couple of years they reduced it to an eleven-inch. And then the next step was ten and three quarters, or maybe it was ten and a half. I guess it was ten and a half. And then ten-inch, and then they finally—The last year of play they used the regulation nine-inch ball. Interviewer: “Okay, now what was the motivation for making the ball size smaller?” Well, you know, I think probably to give the appearance more of baseball than of softball. And, of course, they started allowing a sidearm—a modified sidearm pitch in 1946, and I think that it was—the smaller ball was easier for the players to handle. Not quite as heavy to throw the longer distances and that sort of thing. I’m sure those all fit in. Interviewer: “Yeah. Now some of the pitchers talk about how it was just that much easier to handle. The ball got smaller. They could throw more kinds of pitches and do more things with it, too. But yeah, so instead it looks more like baseball then as they go forward. Okay, now as the—So they have the idea to go ahead and form a league, and Meyerhoff is going around and signed up some cities to start playing in. Now the Hollywood film spends a certain amount of time on the whole recruitment process and so forth and scouts wandering around far corners of the country to find talent in all sorts of odd places. How do they actually wind up recruiting their players?” (36:04) Well, Wrigley used his professional scouts, and they had a network. And they just started searching for the best players all over the country and in Canada, and, you know, probably they had some cow pasture encounters just like the movie had. They also had encounters with urban areas like Cincinatti, Chicago, Boston, Regina, Saskatchewan, you know, where there were big centers of softball. Detroit. Interviewer: “Was there a substantial group in California, too?” Yes, there was a group in California. They came a little bit later. I think they were the 1944 crop from the LA area. Softball. And I’d like to say about the softball—That title was only used the first year, and about midway through the season, Wrigley and Meyerhoff started advertising it as 8 �Fidler, Merrie girls’ baseball. And the newspaper men said, “Well, it’s not really baseball because it’s of the underhand pitch, and it’s not really softball because of, you know, the leading off and stealing and the use of baseball bats.” And so in—at the end of the 1943 season, they changed the name of the league to the All-American Girls Professional Ball League. So they didn’t have soft or base in it. (38:05) But when Meyerhoff took it over in 1945, at the end of that season, he said, “I’m going to change it to All-American Girls Baseball because that’s the rules we’re playing.” And so from that point on it was All-American Girls Baseball League. There was another name change in 1951 when the local team owners bought Meyerhoff out, and they changed the name to American Girls Baseball League. But by then in the communities it was so well-known as AllAmerican that the locals still referred to it and the newspaper articles still referred to it often as All-American League. Interviewer: “And that’s the name that the league itself—the association today still uses.” Well, the Players Association changed it a little bit because they incorporated the 1944—’45 title, and from then on the title under Meyerhoff and combined it to be the All-American Girls Professional Baseball League, which it actually was. It’s probably the most descriptive title because it was a truly professional league. Interviewer: “Plus, the kind of thing done to confuse poor documentary filmmakers who try to make things simpler. ‘What label did they use?’ Yeah. Okay, now just to fill in another piece of this then—People, I think, understand baseball versus softball. The softball is larger than a baseball. That’s pretty easy to see. You talked about baseball bats versus softball bats. If you’re not a softball player, what’s the difference?” The circumference at the end of the bat. Baseball is two and three quarters, and I don’t know exactly what softball is, but I’d say it’s probably not more than two and a quarter. I’d have to look that up for sure. Interviewer: “And how does that make a difference?” (40:12) Well, it’s the amount of surface of the bat that can contact the ball. In softball, you have the thinner bat but the larger ball, and in baseball, you have the smaller ball but the larger bat. So the idea is that you have—probably have roughly about the same surface contact one way or the other. Interviewer: “And then would the baseball bat then be heavier because it’s thicker?” Yes. Interviewer: “So you can hit the ball harder.” Yeah. And longer. I think they’re a little bit longer. I’m not for sure on that, though. I’d have to do a little research. Interviewer: “Okay, but they are fundamentally two different animals. But they picked one or the other. Okay. Let’s go back sort of to the recruitment. So they’re getting people out— 9 �Fidler, Merrie What proportion of them do you think were coming out of organized leagues as opposed to just random individual pickups?” I think nearly all of them came out of organized leagues because they had to have a high level of skill to be recruited by Wrigley’s scouts, and not only did they have to be—have a high level of skill, but they also had to present high quality of character in some fashion because he was— Wrigley was very image conscious in his publicity and promotion even of, you know, his gum, and he was very aware that publicity was very important to selling the product. (42:03) And so there are—Some folks have shared with me that they believe that if there were two players that had equal skill and one was more petite-looking, he chose—He had his scouts choose the more petite-looking ones. And if you look at the stature of the former players today, they’re all fairly short and, you know, sixty—seventy years ago, were probably all fairly thin and petite-looking. Not to say that there weren’t some taller players, too, especially in the later years, but you look at those first ones and look at their size and weight, and you get the idea. Well, you know, the petite women in skirted uniforms playing with a high level of skill. You know, it’s something that captured the fans and kept them coming back. Interviewer: “So softball players wore pants, right?” At that time, they emulated the men’s baseball uniforms, and most of the teams wore either baseball pants or, in the warmer climes, shorts and long socks. And so the skirted uniform was a novelty, but there again Wrigley was very image conscious. And the most acceptable women in sport in society at that time were figure skaters, tennis players, hockey players, and they all wore skirted uniforms. (44:09) Interviewer: “Okay. Hockey as in field rather than ice.” As in field hockey. Yeah, not ice hockey. Yeah, and they all wore skirted uniforms. And so he wanted his endeavor to be socially acceptable, and I think that was one of the factors that led to the creation of the skirted uniform. Interviewer: “Okay. Now along with the skirted uniform, one of the things that people tend to be aware of about the league was that when it started they had very elaborate rules and regulations regarding how the women dressed or wore their hair or had makeup. And there was actually a charm school run by Helena Rubinstein’s people in Chicago. I mean, so how much of that actually happened, and how long did it last?” Well, I think that the rules of character and dress and that sort of thing were not all that different than what was going on in colleges at the time. You know, if you talk to women who went to college in the 40s and 50s—They couldn’t leave their dorm rooms in pants, and they’ll tell you stories about—Well, they had a long skirt that they wore over their jeans to go to breakfast. You know, and then they’d go back to their room and get dressed for classes. Or wore over their pajamas to go to breakfast. So the rules that Wrigley established for appearance off the field were, again, rules that were the highest standard of the day. The charm school training was actually a Meyerhoff idea as a publicity thing, you know, and it probably was stimulated by the fact that a lot of the players emulated the walk and movement characteristics of the men’s stars. 10 �Fidler, Merrie (46:22) And so they wanted, again, to project the image of femininity, and one of the best ways to teach that was through charm school training. Like Rubinstein was very popular at that time period, and so they hired her and others later on. And that lasted—I’m not exactly sure how many years, but I know at least the first three or four. Interviewer: “Because I had—Because Anne O’Dowd, I think, started in about ‘49 or so. Talking about going to the spring training and having it there, and she said by then there was just a couple of teams—kind of smaller groups, not altogether in the same place—but two teams were together, and there was a charm school there. Others talked about going around the same time. So I was kind of surprised there was still something around that late, but did that just kind of depend on what the teams did?” Well, that may have been that particular team’s—one of their focuses that—Yes, that’s the image they wanted their team to project. And, again, new players coming in, you know, would—may have had more manly mannerisms of movement and that sort of thing, and they wanted to instruct them, you know. You know, in public this is how you walk and act and that sort of thing. (48:04) Interviewer: “Now when they’re first recruiting the players, how old were they?” Well, I think in 1943 there were some players that started out at age fifteen. In fact, I think Sophie Kurys was only fifteen. Well, I know Dottie Schroeder was only fifteen that year. And I’ve done a little research, and I think that that was—that they didn’t recruit players any younger than fifteen because of the child labor laws. But there was a clause in the child labor laws that individuals who were in a professional sport could be recruited at age fifteen. Well, Dolly White, I know—They first—She went to spring training in Pascagoula in 1946, and she was only fourteen at the time. And her mother talked to Max Carey who was running the camp at that time, and she asked about if she was good enough. And he said, “Well, we don’t want to take her now because she’s a little bit young.” And her mother said, “Well, I didn’t want you to take her. I just wanted to know if she was good enough.” And he said yes, and then he contacted her the following year. And she went to spring training in Cuba at age fifteen and was contracted to play with the league at that time. (50:01) Interviewer: “Okay. Now when the league started up, what kind of response did they get that first year or so?” Well, I think that first year with four teams they had over 176,000 spectators, so that was really pretty good. Interviewer: “And it was a shorter season than the modern Major League season is.” Right. They started at the end of May, and, I believe, finished right at the beginning of September. Like the first week of September. But they still played like a hundred games that season, and Chet Grant said, “You know, I went to the first game because I think it was—Marty McManus was coaching.” And he had been a Major League player. And he said, “I really went to see him.” But he said, “Once I saw them play and the skill that they had and all—” He said, “ I 11 �Fidler, Merrie was captivated, and I kept going back. And that’s how I became involved in becoming a manager of the league.” And that’s kind of the response you get from people you talk to or fans. They were captivated by the skill that they displayed. Interviewer: “And it did well enough that the league expanded after that.” Yes, and that started under Meyerhoff, I believe, in 1945. They expanded with two more teams, and then in a couple years it was two more. In ‘47 they had eight teams, and then in ‘48 they expanded to ten teams. And probably would have been better if they had kept to the eight teams because they diluted their talent pool a little bit. (52:10) Interviewer: “Yeah. Did they have problems recruiting new players?” Well, as the league transitioned from more like softball to more like baseball, they had trouble getting softball players skilled enough to make the transition to the longer basepaths and longer pitching distance. And then after 1948 dealing with overhand pitching instead of underhand pitching. And one of my theories is that if they had left the game where it was in 1948 or maybe 1949 with the basepaths and the pitching distance that it may have lasted longer because I think that going to the baseball distances that the men use was beyond the talent of the players at that time, especially those with the image of petite women. I mean, nowadays women who are— because they have it in the schools—Women who are taller and stronger, you know, can handle the longer basepaths and pitching distance a little better. But at that time they didn’t recruit that kind of a player, and probably those women who were taller and stronger at that time period didn’t have the training, you know, to get involved in the league. (54:07) Interviewer: “Okay. Now one of the things the league did at a certain point in its history was that they created a couple of sort of junior level teams that were traveling teams or barnstorming teams that would travel together around the country on buses, and they played each other in exhibition games as a means of preparing some of these new players to make that transition. So when were they actually doing that?” I believe that started in 1949, and actually there was a precursor to that in the Chicago area. Meyerhoff set up a minor league in the Chicago area. There were four teams, and they played— the same uniforms, the same rules—and they were younger players from the playground areas. And they signed contracts and everything just like the All-American League did. And then in 1948 they had ten teams, and the season was not as successful. And so they dropped back to eight teams. Well, they—Some of those players were not as skilled as the rest of the AllAmericans, but they had potential. And so Meyerhoff started off in 1949 with what he called rookie touring teams. There were two teams, and they traveled together on the same bus. And he scheduled them to play exhibition games through the South and up the East coast. And it was a training ground for them. And some of them during the season were called up from the touring team, were recommended by the manager, called up from the touring team to fill in for somebody who had been injured on one of the All-American teams. (56:12) And that—Those touring teams operated in 1949 and 1950, and during the 1950 season, they were especially blessed by being able to play in exhibition games in Griffith Stadium in Washington, D.C and Yankees Stadium in New York. And so that was fun. 12 �Fidler, Merrie Interviewer: “Okay. Now why did that stop? Because they don’t—They’re not doing it at the end of the league.” Well, at the end of the 1950 season, the individual team directors decided that the money they were paying from gate receipts to management or to Meyerhoff for advertising and publicity and umpires and that sort of thing—that they could do it themselves for less money, and they’d make money on it instead of losing money on it because, you know, baseball—Even Major League Baseball owners lose money on baseball. And there were some factors in effect that reduced fan participation. And so they bought Meyerhoff out, and they felt that the rookie touring teams were too expensive. And so they cut off one of the player development programs that was there, and in my mind they started cutting off their nose to spite their face. (58:15) And another thing they did—And, you know, they were businessmen, and it’s hard to understand why except that money was getting tight. And there was a recession in the works, you know, nationally. But they didn’t seem to understand that the rookie touring team was publicity and promotion as well as player development. And another thing that they cut fairly dramatically was the general publicity program that Meyerhoff had set in place. And so to me that was another factor that, you know— They whittled off a little more of their nose to spite their face. And so that’s why that transpired. Interviewer: “Okay. Now kind of backtracking into another piece of this—We’ve talked some about, you know, who the players were and where they came from and what kind of experience or talent—skills and stuff they had when they came in. Now the spring training for the league changed a lot depending on what year you were in. So the first year that was Wrigley Field or in Chicago someplace else?” No, it was at—The first year was in Wrigley Field in Chicago. Well, they had whittled down the number of players pretty much with tryout schools in urban areas like Cincinatti and Regina and Chicago and Detroit and wherever else they got players from. (1:00:00) And then in ‘44 I believe it was in Peru, Illinois. And one of the unique things about the league is that they took all of the players for all of the teams and had spring training together, and then instead of the team directors picking players, the league had an allocation committee that got together. And it included the managers and Meyerhoff and some of the administrative people, and they tried to delegate players to teams on an equal skill basis. So if they had four strong first basemen, that was good. They could put them around. But if they had two strong first basemen—second basemen and two weak ones, then they tried to say, “Okay, this team has so many strong players. We’ll give them one of the weaker second basemen in order to even out the competitive level of all four teams or all eight teams as the case may be.” And, in theory, that was good. Interviewer: “Now once a player was assigned to a team, did it become kind of customary to keep a lot of those same players from one year to the next? They would move some periodically.” Yeah. I think each team tried to keep a core of players that were the most skilled and became fan favorites like, I’m sure, Dorothy Kamenshek in Rockford. (1:02:15) You know, she was a Rockford Peach her whole career in the league, and I suspect that Rockford had dibs on her, you know, kind of thing. And they also had kind of a unique system of—If a particular regular player 13 �Fidler, Merrie on a team got injured or ill or pregnant, you know, and couldn’t play for a period of time, that they would borrow a substitute from another team in order to fill in that position. Like, for instance, a first baseman on another team—a substitute first baseman on another team might be almost comparable to the starter on this team, and so they’d pull her over and have her play until the other player could come back or just keep her, depending. Because everything was operated by a central office instead of by individual team offices. And so that’s how they dealt with that. Interviewer: “Okay. Now what determined where the league had spring training? Because they were in all sorts of odd places. Pascagoula, Mississippi, Opa-Locka, Florida, Cuba. I mean, what was at work there?” You know, I don’t know except that after the war—During the war, they had to train in fairly local centers because of gas and rubber rationing. (1:04:08) There was no outside transportation. Once the war was over, 1946 was the first spring training where they all went to Pascagoula, and my feeling is that prices were cheaper in the South than, say, in the Chicago area. And in Pascagoula, they utilized an abandoned Navy base for rooms and, you know, food. And they had fields there. Plenty of field space. And they could have everybody together and have spring training in the South like the big leagues did. You know, I think that was probably part of it. And it was, you know, a novelty and might be a recruiting tool, you know, to say, “Oh, we’re going to hold spring training in the South this year.” You know, as opposed to Regina, Saskatchewan. Where it would be warmer and more pleasant and that sort of thing. The Cuba trip, I really believe, was done through connections with Branch Rickey. And, of course, ‘47 was the first year that Jackie Robinson could play, and they didn’t want to go to the South with him because they knew there would be problems because of segregation, integration, and that sort of thing. And so the Dodgers went to Cuba. Well, Branch Rickey and Philip Wrigley, you know, had joined together to start the league, and then there was Max Carey who was a good friend of Branch Rickey. (1:06:07) And I think they kind of, you know, collaborated on, you know, that spring training in Cuba even with the flight expenses would be cheaper than in the South. And they had good facilities. They had good hotels. And, you know, it was—The Dodgers were going to be there, and the All-Americans could follow. And they captured the fans there in Cuba who I have since learned that—and I forget who the researcher—who the newspaper guy was—but he was a black man, and he said he went to Cuba when the Dodgers did to follow Jackie Robinson and reported back to his paper that he knew that the Cubans were very religious, and he found out that baseball was their religion. And so it was natural for the Cuban baseball public to come out and watch the girls play. And, in fact, I know that Max Carey worked with a gentleman from Cuba to train some Cuban woman players in the All-American game before the All-Americans got there so that they could have a game together. And so that was the first exposure of Cuban women to the All-American baseball, and, in fact, they had a Cuban woman player join the AllAmerican League, come back to play with the team, but she was too homesick and couldn’t stay. Vialat was her last name. (1:08:05) And that was the beginning of the league kind of drafting Cuban players to play in the league. Interviewer: “Okay, because there were a number of Cubans who wound up playing for them.” Yes. 14 �Fidler, Merrie Interviewer: “Okay. Now after the Cuba trip, they—or at least some of them also did a kind of Latin American tour. Central America, South America. At least around the Caribbean. When was that, and how did that work?” Okay. After the 1947 season, Meyerhoff took a team of players to Cuba, and they did exhibition games there. And that was pretty successful. And along the way—And I’m not exactly sure when Meyerhoff conceived this, but he conceived of starting an international girls’ baseball league to include Cuba and Puerto Rico. And I think it built in his brain, you know. “Well, why don’t we go to Latin America and do some exhibition games and see what we come up with? And maybe it will be very lucrative.” Because fans would come to see a novelty like that, and there were baseball people and teams there and all. And it’s my theory that he went to cities in Guatemala and those Central American countries—and Venezuela and Puerto Rico—where Wrigley had gum enterprises going. (1:10:01) And he did that in the winter of 1949. That particular trip was from February—the month of February and part of March in the winter of 1949. And there’s a—At the South Bend History Museum, there’s a folder of stuff that Annabelle Lee contributed, and there’s a picture of the All-Americans playing against a Puerto Rican team. And the Puerto Rican team has the same style uniform as the All-American league, so the—And that was probably done in advance of the All-Americans getting there with the style of uniform and the women playing. And, you know, I don’t know. One of my bucket list things is to someday go to Cuba and Puerto Rico and go through the library newspapers and, you know, see if I can find out if there were women’s leagues there before the All-Americans got there or if they were developed just prior to the All-Americans getting there to play. But I know that they— Most of the tour—Central and South America—were All-American players and Cuban players playing against each other. Exhibition games. There was a mention somewhere in Venezuela of—that the fans really turned out when the Venezuelan team played against the All-Americans. And I know that the Puerto Rican teams played against the All-Americans, and, of course, in Cuba they had Cuban teams playing against the All-Americans. (1:12:03) Interviewer: “Okay. Now how successful was the Latin American tour? Were there problems with it?” There were some problems with it. Apparently, the Cuban representative who traveled with the team was not totally honest about some of the transportation costs. And so what happened was he charged management system more than he spent, which meant that Meyerhoff then had to put forth more money to pay for the whole thing. And he wasn’t going to do that by himself, so he charged the team managers to kick in to pay the players because the players said, “Well, we’re not going to play if you don’t pay us. We’re not going to play during the regular season if you don’t pay us.” And that was some of the star players in the league. So they helped to pay—The team directors helped to pay Meyerhoff off, but they were not happy about it. And that was probably part of the beginning of the conflict between management and team directors. Interviewer: “Okay. Now did the whole league go on the Latin American tour or just parts of it?” 15 �Fidler, Merrie No, just selected players, and they were—They also used some Cuban players, and so what they did was they allocated the players to the two teams with some All-Americans and some Cubans so that the teams were as even as possible so when the fans went to see them, you know, there wasn’t blowouts type of thing. (1:14:06) But it was basically All-Americans and Cuban players. Interviewer: “Now after Meyerhoff was out of the picture, did the teams kind of go to holding more local-wise spring training in different places, or what happened?” Yeah. That was the beginning of teams pairing up and going to a location to have their spring trainings together and doing their exhibitions back to their home cities together. I know there was a year when a couple of teams went to North Carolina, and a couple went to lower Illinois, and a couple went to upstate New York or something like that so that they got exposure. But it wasn’t as centralized. The administration wasn’t as centralized as it had been before. Interviewer: “Right. Okay. Let’s see. Now how long did players tend to stay in the league, or what range do we see?” You know, I really haven’t looked at that for the players. That would be a good thing to do. To go to the website and go through all of the players and find out how many years they played. The stars played longer, but some only played a year or two. One of the things that affected the length that players could play was their ability to adjust to the longer pitching distances if they were pitchers. The change in pitching style. I mean, there aren’t a whole lot of players that can change from being an outstanding underhand pitcher to an outstanding overhand pitcher. (1:16:00) There were a few. But that was a factor for pitchers. But also, you know, for catchers, throwing a longer distance to second base was a factor. So as the league expanded the basepaths and pitching distance, it affected whether a player could make it or not. And some of the early pitchers, I know, when—Even like from ‘43 to ‘44, I think there was a change in the distance. A couple of feet of the pitching distance. And some of the pitchers couldn’t adjust to that, and so they didn’t play anymore. Interviewer: “All right, and there were occasional people like Jean Faut. And I suppose she’s kind of exceptional. She was really happy to go to a full overhand because—And some of them who had learned kind of on their own or individually were throwing overhand because that was what the boys did, which would have helped them.” Right, and some of the outfielders with stronger arms. They trained them to become pitchers. Like Rose Gacioch. You know, she’d been an outstanding outfielder, and as she got older, you know, she still wanted to play. And they needed overhand pitchers, and so there were quite a few outfielders that turned into pitchers. Helen Nordquist was one, you know. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Where did the managers come from?” Well, you know, Wrigley was very smart. I think he knew that people would come out to see Major League managers if they wouldn’t initially come out to watch woman baseball players. And, you know, and some of those managers during the war may have needed a job. Some of those former Major Leaguers may have needed a job, and he knew them, knew their character, 16 �Fidler, Merrie and so solicited them to be managers. And some of the early managers like Johnny Gottselig— He was a Chicago Blackhawk. (1:18:12) Wrigley knew him. He knew that he had coached women’s softball teams up in Saskatchewan and been successful. And so that’s how he got involved. Of course, it was after the hockey season. Interviewer: “Okay, and at what point did he bring in Jimmie Foxx?” Well, Jimmie Foxx actually came in in 1951, and that was after the Wrigley-Meyerhoff era. And I should say here that Meyerhoff continued the standards and policies that Wrigley had started with. He expanded a little bit on the field and ball dimensions, but everything else was pretty much as Wrigley had set it up. The independent team owners—When they took over in 1951, they kind of dropped off on some things, especially like the publicity, but, you know, they—I think they too recognized that having a Major League manager was an advantage. And I suspect that somebody in Fort Wayne had connections with Jimmie Foxx, and he had just recently retired. Either that or—I’d have to go back. Whether he’d recently retired or recently been inducted in the Hall of Fame. Anyway, they recruited him to manage in the league, and he managed for a couple years. Interviewer: “Yeah. I seem to recall something a few years back about complaints that Jimmie Foxx wasn’t in the Hall of Fame. He had five hundred home runs and wasn’t there.” (1:20:00) No, he’s there now. Interviewer: “Yeah. Anyway, yeah. Because I guess one of the things is the assumption like with the Penny Marshall film. The assumption is that Tom Hanks’s character, Jimmy Dugan, is sort of loosely modeled after Jimmie Foxx except for the little thing where Jimmie Foxx came in a lot later. Because I think that may be an assumption that people might have. That he’s not one of the original managers.” No. No, he wasn’t. And that’s another thing that’s a little bit misleading about the film is that it gives the impression that the league started with overhand pitching the first year. You know, which is—But there again, for the purposes of the film, they wanted everybody to know that it was baseball, not softball. And they didn’t have time to cover all of the details, but yeah, Jimmie wasn’t one of the first managers. Interviewer: “Okay. Well, the players in their interviews—In their interviews, they talk about different managers and so forth, and one who keeps popping up a lot is Bill Allington. So who was he, or what was his background?” Well, Bill Allington was a Minor League player. And I’m not sure if he managed any men’s teams in southern California, but he managed women’s softball in southern California. And he was also involved in acting in some of the early baseball films. And so he kind of had a couple of jobs, I guess, but he loved baseball. I think it was Kammie that told me that she felt if Bill’s head was cracked open, baseballs would roll out, you know. And he was a stickler for his players knowing the rules, and he’d quiz them on bus trips. (1:22:00) They said that there was always 17 �Fidler, Merrie quizzing going on on the bus trips. He’d say, “Kamenshek, if a fly ball is hit to an infielder with a runner on first base, is that infield fly rule or not?” You know, that kind of thing. And I think that’s part of why he was such a successful manager because his players knew the rules on the field, and they reacted instinctively to situations that those who weren’t as up on the rules might not have done. And Kammie said that after practices he took her aside. And he would work with any of the players after practice that wanted to. And she wanted to improve her bunting. And so he put handkerchiefs down on the ground in front of home plate and threw pitches at her and had her work at bunting to the handkerchiefs. And one of the pitchers—I don’t remember exactly who right now, but she said that that was one of the problems with Kammie. She could bunt that ball anyplace she wanted to. Interviewer: “All right. Now when the league folded, he kind of kept going in a form for the next couple years. He created his own traveling team. So can you talk about that?” Well, and there again, I think he recognized how skilled these women were, and he was baseball man through and through. And he didn’t want to give up. (1:24:00) And so he put together a team of players who were willing. He tried to recruit others who said, “No, I’ve got to go to college this year,” or, “I got to get a real job,” or, “No, I’m getting married.” Or something of that nature. But he put together a talented crew of players and barnstormed with them around the Midwest and even down into the South and along the East Coast. And I think he hoped that he could—And they played against men’s teams because there weren’t that many talented women’s teams. And they exchanged batteries so that the men were throwing, you know, to the men batters, and the women were throwing to the women batters. And I guess it was pretty good entertainment. And he did that for three years. ‘55 through ‘58. And then, I guess, it didn’t become as lucrative anymore, or it didn’t have enough players who were willing to go with him anymore or something of that nature. Interviewer: “And then women’s baseball kind of—to a large degree disappears. And, I mean, there are, today, women playing baseball in various organized fashion and efforts to kind of have more of them do it. But the league itself—Most people really didn’t know anything about, you know—Still are people occasionally now who didn’t know. And the film was kind of a revelation to a lot of them. I guess, sort of the question comes up on some level. You know, were these women, you know, pioneers in sports, or did they do things that had a lasting impact? Because you could argue on the one hand that, well, they kind of went away and then women’s sports got going separately later. But is there more to it than that?” (1:26:09) Well, I think in the Midwest where the teams played—I think that had an impact on at least some of the populace. Ruth Davis, for instance, was batgirl for the South Bend Blue Sox, and she mentioned that the women playing baseball, which—Even at that time women weren’t supposed to be playing baseball. That that expanded her view that, well, if women can play baseball, women can do anything else they want. And that motivated her to seek out following her interests in college and university. There was a fan—shoot, her name escapes me right now— who went to the Grand Rapids Chicks games and became a professor at one of the New York universities. Columbia University, I think. And she knew—And you have to keep in mind that the Division for Girls’ and Women’s Sports in education at the time—Their philosophy was, 18 �Fidler, Merrie “Yes, we want girls to play, but we want all girls to play, and we don’t want to focus on just the skilled. We want, you know, everybody to have an opportunity to play.” Which is wonderful. Wonderful philosophy. (1:28:01) But it didn’t provide those highly skilled girls with the opportunity to participate in highly skilled competition like the boys had in school and colleges. But this lady became—obtained a doctorate in physical education, and she knew from watching the Grand Rapids Chicks that women could develop high level skills and that high level competition was a good thing for women. And she also recognized that girls and women were paying the same fees in college, which included intercollegiate sports that they didn’t have an opportunity for. And so she was a moving force in the Division for Girls’ and Women’s Sports to change the focus to allow women to have interscholastic and intercollegiate sport. And they had strict rules, but at least they still had the opportunity to play. And so the individual teams, I believe, had an effect on the people in the local populaces to accept women playing highly skilled competition with each other. Interviewer: “Okay. I guess one thing that I’ve observed in just interviewing and getting to know a lot of the players is that they went on often to do pretty remarkable things, and a fair number of them wind up being educators and even professionals in physical education. And some of them were pretty much in the trenches to help promote Title IX or help enforce it when it came in. And so they’re going out with an understanding of what they can do and what women can do and in a lot of cases, whether it’s at a high school level or a college level or whatever, encourage women to do it. So that piece of it certainly goes there. So there’s not a direct, linear sort of descent from this league to the WNBA or something like that, but a lot of those things were possible because of groundwork that does in part come out of this.” (1:30:24) Yeah. I think there’s a connection, like you say, especially with those who went on to college and coached. And, you know, when Title IX was in the works, they said, “Yes. Let’s do that.” And they did provide some of the groundwork for it because of their experience and how satisfying playing that high level competition can be. And yeah, Dolly White, for instance— Dolly Brumfield White—she would not have been able to go to college without the money she earned playing professional baseball. She came from a lower class, Southern family. Just her father worked as a mechanic. Her mother did some clerical work later. But basically she grew up, you know, with a single parent providing for the family of two girls and a boy. And she told me that if there was to be college for anybody, it would have been the boy. And she was really— got upset at times with her father because the boy was always first. She was the oldest, but when it came to having a car, the boy got the car first. Type of thing. (1:32:00) And so if she hadn’t earned the money she earned playing professional baseball, she would never have been able to go to college. And she went to college, majored in physical education, became a recreation specialist, and did a great deal to educate people in the field of recreation who then went out to become heads of recreational parks in Alabama and Arkansas and in that area where she taught. And so, yeah, I think, you know, individually those women had influences. And like Lou Stone Richards—She married and had a family and coached for boys’ little league teams. Well, Andrew Card was one of those little league players, and he became George Bush’s Chief of Staff. You know, so it’s fun to see those influences. 19 �Fidler, Merrie Interviewer: “Well, even today long afterward the personalities of these women kind of still stand out. They really are a pretty remarkable bunch of people, and you’ve done them a great service by going and recording their history. And it’s kind of up to all of us, I guess, now to make sure that people remember this and give them the credit they deserve.” Yeah. It was a unique thing, and I think—You know, my hope and, I think, the hope of a number of the players at least is that there comes a situation in the not too distant future where young women will again have the opportunity to play professional baseball in their own league. (1:34:08) They shouldn’t have to play with or against men. You know, they should have their own league and their own competition among—excellent competition among themselves. Not that it would be objectionable to having individual highly skilled, highly capable women play on a men’s team. But that would not include the majority of highly skilled woman players. Interviewer: “And in other sports, they’re already doing it.” Yes. Like in basketball. They have a women’s professional basketball league, you know, and they’re not asked to compete against bigger, stronger men. And I think that’s the way it should be for baseball, too. And, you know, there’s things in the works. That hopefully it will happen. Interviewer: “All right. I’d just like to close out here by thanking you for taking the time and talking to me about all this.” Oh, my pleasure. (01:35:18) 20 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_FidlerM1969BB Title A name given to the resource Fidler, Merrie (Interview transcript and video), 2016 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fidler, Merrie Description An account of the resource Merrie Fidler was born in Weed, California, on October 31, 1943. She attended community college in the Redding area, then a Bible college in Los Angeles before dropping out of school and working as a secretary in the physical education department at UC – Davis. Merrie completed her bachelor’s degree and got her teaching credentials, then pursued a master’s degree at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst. During her master work, she took a course on American women in sports and discovered the All-American Girls Professional Baseball League. Over the course of several years she interviewed former players and managers and eventually completed her thesis, The Development & Decline of the All-American Girls Baseball League. She went on to contact more players and became part of the League’s association and attended the reunions. Merrie is now the association’s historian and a contributor to its newsletter. Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--California Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-10-22 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5092a94e7a78b7c270892bde9e9df49f.m4v f07ec4764b9b29a611f08f1982cfb6d0 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6531d57d37a35878d16b558e3f012b62.pdf a6e927403c9beeae56794767a3c57154 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW HELEN FILARSKI Women in Baseball Born: 1924 Detroit, MI Resides: Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 5, 2010, Detroit, Michigan at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion. Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, November 26, 2010 Interviewer: “Helen, if we could begin with your full name and where and when were you born?” My whole name is Helen Margaret Filarski and I was born in 1924. Interviewer: “Where?” In Detroit, Michigan Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like? Where did you live?” I lived in Detroit, Michigan and most of the time it was—the war was on and there was no—it was before the war was on I should say and I was going to school in Detroit, the Catholic school. 14:17 Interviewer: “Did you wear a uniform?” No, not at first, it’s when you’re out of the eighth grade that you start with the uniform. Interviewer: “I had the white sox with the black shoes and the girls had the skirts with the white sox, yup, yup. Where did you live? I know it was Detroit, but did you live in an apartment or a house?” No, we lived in the east side of Detroit and my mother and father and there were seven children. The war was on and most of them at that time were in war plants because the war was on and everything, so we just stayed there and I went to Holy Name School for 1 �eight years and graduated from there and went to St. Joseph’s because my mother had gone there, so we all followed up in the Polish atmosphere. 15:46 Interviewer: “So you had neighborhood friends and did you play games?” Played games—I was one of seven children, so the girls, I didn’t consider myself a girl because I went with my brother and we played ball all the time. The boys got away with it you know, so I stuck with him and we played ball and most of my time with them we played and like everybody else, we had one bat and one ball and I got the job to sew the ball up every time after we played because we knocked the stuffing out of it, but then we had to sew it up before we could play a game. 16:41 I would keep that up and I went through grade school and I played all that way and then I went to high school. Interviewer: “Now, were there any organized sports at the school?” No, not at grade school they didn’t have any. Interviewer: “But you’re playing baseball basically with other neighbor kids?” We would get out of school and out we would go. We lived right next to a playground and that was one thing you know, we would go out the door and over the street and we played until it got dark and that was it every day you know. 17:34 Because I was a girl, my mother would call me every once in a while, “get in here and do the dishes”, and I didn’t enjoy that, but what do you do? We did that all my life through eighth grade then when I graduated out of grade school—oh, in the summer time my mother, since we were so poor and they didn’t have a job, my father got a job cleaning the streets at that time because there wasn’t any war plants. My mother would make a big lunch and everything and my dad would drive out to a plot that the city gave you and make a garden and we would sit out there all day working on the planting. 18:40 Then my dad would come 2 �back after he got through with his job and pick us up. There were about four of us at that time that went there and they took us home and we got ready for dinner and everything and that was every day, you know, that we had time to get over there. Interviewer: “By the time you got into high school, did you have any idea what you wanted to do through life? Were you going to be a nurse or be a mother, what were you thinking?” Well, through those years I played ball at the city park and I played with the girls that were in the league and mostly I was too young and that and I would pick-up the bats and chase the ball and stuff like that. 19:43 Interviewer: “So is this the actual professional girls’ baseball league?” Yes Interviewer: “How did you hear about them?” Oh, I learned a lot from them you know. Interviewer: “But how did you hear about them? How did you know they were there?” Here’s the playground, here’s the street, here’s my house, I mean we lived right upon it and anybody that would get on that field we could see and if there was an open space, a position open, I ran over there and played in it, the boys or whoever is playing. Interviewer: “How did you hear about the All American Girls Professional Baseball League though?” Alright, when we played, a bunch of girls were in the league and I got good enough to play with them and on their team, so I played and everybody said, “why don’t you go join us for this year, you’re good enough to go over there”. 20:52 3 �Interviewer: “So they were off season, they were from Detroit and they went to play wherever they played and when they came back, that’s when you were playing with them?” Yes Interviewer: “Ok, now I get it, so did you go and talk to your mom and dad about it?’ Oh, I kept talking to her all the time, but it was no use and she would say, “girls don’t play ball, just come in the house and do some work around the house”, all housework all the time. Interviewer: “You had told me a story about how you heard about tryouts in Chicago, let’s hear that story.” Through the girls, we kept going to the park and that and I heard the story about it and the girls kept asking me, “come on, come on with us, don’t stay here”, so I went and asked my mother and she said, “you’re too young, you can’t leave home alone, you’re too young to go”, and she said, “Al Capone is in here and he’s trying to get a league together of women and it’s not for playing ball and you’re not going anywhere near that playground again”, so it just kept a going and I kept playing there. 22:27 I kept playing until I got out of high school. Interviewer: “So you had to have her permission to be able to join the league and she wouldn’t let you.” No Interviewer: “So when you turned was it eighteen? What did you do?” 4 �Eighteen, yes and I said, “I’ll run away”, and she didn’t like the idea of me running away, so she said, “let me talk to some of the girls, Connie Wisnwiewski, and a lot of the girls that were on the team and they were my friends and I had them over and everything and she talked to them and they said, “she’ll be all right, we’ll take care of her”, and I was about the youngest one there then and when I got to spring training they got me in real good you know. “You Polock, you go and stay in the room and when we call you bring down the fire escape and bring us in”, so that’s what I was doing for a while. 23:40 I was the best friend. Interviewer: “So your mom finally says it’s ok to go. What does your dad think about all this?” My dad didn’t care. Hhe didn’t care. Interviewer: “So, how did you actually go to the spring training? Did you go by train, did you go by bus?” We did, we went by train. Interviewer: “And you were with the other girls that you knew, so you felt kind of taken care of?” Yes, placing you where you were going to play, I got on a team, Rockford, with no friends of mine and I didn’t know anybody. Interviewer: “Did you have to try out? Did you have to try out for the team?” Yes Interviewer: “What was that experience? What was that like, the tryouts?” You’re scared, you’re scared and there were girls from the league out there and they would hit the ball to me. Connie Wisnwiewski was the best pitcher there was at the time, 5 �so she would do the pitching—running and everything, teaching you, but they made a fool of me. 25:04 They’ll do that, they will kid around with ya, but I tried to do it my own same way. Interviewer: “But you got in.” Oh yeah, I got in Interviewer: “That must have been a happy day?” Oh, it was fine, but it took me and got me into a house. When you get on a team they check you into a house, so this was mom and dad Gorenson and they had no children and they had a beautiful home and everything, but they said to them, “keep an eye on her because she’s underage and we don’t want any problems”, so it was “where you going?” They kept their eye on me. 25:57 Interviewer: “Did you have a room mate?” Yes, she was a movie star, Kay Rohrer, and she would go out and she would say, “don’t forget, I will call you when I want to come back in”, so she would call and if we were on the road, she would call and I’d let down the fire escape otherwise I would wait and put the light on so she would see the light and that the road was clear and she would come in and we did that for two seasons. Interviewer: “What was your first season like as a rookie?” 26:36 Scared, you’re really scared when you play with these gals who know their position and what’s going on instead of waiting for someone to say, “now you go there and you go there”. They put you in your position and they taught you—you learned and you would stay on that field until you fell down. You learned to not be afraid of the ball and it was good, it was really great. 27:12 6 �Interviewer: “What position did you play the first season?” Third base Interviewer: “As a rookie, did you start or did you sit on the bench a lot?” No, I started I started. Interviewer: “Even though you were scared, you must have been pretty good?” I didn’t mind it and I was tough you know, I would run and go after that ball because I was going to stop it if it killed me. When you were a rookie, you were going to fight your heart out and that’s what I did and it was a strong team. Interviewer: “Any particular game that you remember from the first season? Was there anything that you did that was good or maybe made a mistake?” 28:03 I don’t know, I’m telling you; I ended up in the hospital. Interviewer: “What happened?” Well, I got spiked a couple of times down my legs sliding into third base you know and I think that’s what the worst one was, but that was it. Interviewer: “How did you like the uniform?” Oh, it was free you know and they gave you a lot of free time there. Interviewer: “Did you have to alter it at all for your height or anything?” The first year no, but the second year we did because it was a little bit long. Interviewer: “One of the girls said the difficulty was that she played in the outfield and as you reached down for the ball, you got dress and you didn’t get the ball you got the skirt.” Right, it’s just like in the infield, you’re down here and you go down for the ball and here—the ball is right there. 29:14 7 �Interviewer: “Now, once you finished your first season, you came back home to Detroit?” Oh yeah Interviewer: “Then what did you do when you got home? Were you still in school? You were out of school, right?” No, no I wasn’t in school, but in-between there I went to the war factory. I was two years in the war factory and then I was able to—my age could get me out you know, so that’s where I went. Interviewer: “You were in Detroit though?” Yes Interviewer: “So that was one of the factories that was supporting the war.” Yes Interviewer: “So then how did you—your second season, did they send you a letter? Did they call up your house and say we want a new contract?” Yeah, they send a letter and tell you it’s—we met in spring training. Interviewer: “Ok, and once again you took the train?” 30:12 Yes Interviewer: “Did you still travel with the same girls that you did before?” Oh yeah, there were about seven or eight of us from Detroit that—and every year they probably picked up on or two girls, so it got big and it was very nice. Interviewer: “So the second year you weren’t a rookie any more?” No, no and boy, you better know your steps. It was great and you just knew what you were doing. 8 �Interviewer: “How were the fans?” Oh, the fans just loved ya I’m telling ya. They would be in there and we had a lot of attendance. They were there all the time. It was great. Interviewer: “Now you played some games at home and then you also had road trips?” Yes, four games at home one time and three on the road and then three home and four on the road. Interviewer: “What were the road trips like?” Bumpy, we just had a beat-up bus and oh my god I’m telling you it was really something. It was worse than these that go down the street. 31:34 Interviewer: “These were fairly long trips by bus?” A lot of them, like you would go to Chicago, that was a long one from Peoria or something like that. That was about the longest one I think, from Peoria over into Chicago there. Interviewer: “Now, when you stopped along the way were you just able to walk out with in your blue jeans?” No, if you stopped there and you intended to get off the bus you gotta put your skirt on. You couldn’t be seen in public in shorts or anything like that. 32:16 Interviewer: “Right, did you have to go through the charm school, the school?” Ya, it was the first year the charm school was there. Interviewer: “I’m sorry, I should have gotten back—how was that?” 9 �Oh, everybody laughed about it at first. They made us scared you know, because we couldn’t get out there and play ball because we were doing this and everything you know, and what did we want to do that for. Interviewer: “Did you have to have a book on your head?” No, but some did Interviewer: “Well, did they ask you to sit down in a certain way? Did you also learn how to use the knife and fork and things like that?” Well, your woman who taught us-Interviewer: “Helena Rubenstein?” 33:27 Yeah, she was one, and they taught us how to get up and how to sit down and some of them would just mock them and come in and plop down. Interviewer: “But this was new to you, you were a city girl, right and playing with the boys and now you got to sit this way?” Yes, and I was scared and you would get scared at doing these things, but I loved it just as much. Interviewer: “Did any of those things carry on for the rest of your life? Do you still sit that way?” No, no and if I want to sit down, I sit down. 34:17 Interviewer: “So, your second season, you’re not a rookie anymore and you’re still playing third base?” Yes Interviewer: “Any games that you can think of that were a little bit unusual and did you have a good year?” 10 �Oh, we had a good year, we won the championship the first year that I played and that was good. Interviewer: “Because of you?” No, I helped a little bit and I had a good year there and if I couldn’t do it with my glove, I would do it with my body. Interviewer: “You said earlier that your family was not wealthy and you were making pretty good money weren’t you?” Yeah, it was more than I did in the factory. I mean we were still at the war a couple more years I think into it and we were still at war. Interviewer: “Did you send money home?” 35:20 Yeah, oh yeah I sent it and I didn’t have anyplace to spend it because you can’t do anything anyway. Interviewer: “At that time Helen, you’re a professional baseball player and whether your mother believed it or not, you really were a professional baseball player. Were you thinking that was something you were going to keep doing every year?” Well, I didn’t hear about it at first, but I wanted to get into it and once I got into it I loved it you know. Interviewer: “But did you think you were going to be able to play this for a number of years?” No, I would just do it day by day and figure it out just as good as you can and you do what you can. 11 �Interviewer: “Did you have any idea what you wanted to do professionally with your life? Did you want to become a nurse or did you want to become anything?” No, I just wanted to play ball all day long. 36:31 Interviewer: “So, at the end of the second season you came back to Detroit and you worked in the same factory?” No, you couldn’t go back there. Interviewer: “So, did you get a job?” No, I don’t think I did. Interviewer: “You were living at home with mom and dad?” Yeah, and working around there. Interviewer: “Now the third season comes along and you’re not playing for the same team anymore, right?” Let me see, I went to Peoria and Kenosha for one year after that and then went to South Bend for three years. Interviewer: “But the Kenosha experience—how come they transferred you to Kenosha? Do you remember why?” 37:29 Well, they probably had an opening. Either somebody got hurt or you never know if they didn’t have a good player there. Interviewer: “So, you’re playing with one team and the next thing you know you’re playing with another team.” That’s right, you can go overnight, a lot of times you play ball that night and then as soon as you start packing in the dressing room and out you go to another city. That’s how they went when they were short on players. 12 �Interviewer: “Was the experience at Kenosha a good one?” Oh yeah, it was a good one, getting use to the girl next to you, you know, it takes a little time, so they make you play a little longer and you get different plays and it works out good, so I stayed there for that year. 38:37 Interviewer: “Good, then back again to Detroit?” Yes Interviewer: “And then you play another year?” Yeah Interviewer: “This time you’re with the new team, South Bend and they had a pretty good team didn’t they?” Oh yes, they did and three years I played with them and they were very good. They had a lot of old time ball players. I mean they didn’t get any new ones like the other teams got and it’s hard to get use to playing next to somebody like that, going after the ball or playing to the right team. 39:38 Interviewer: “Now, you’re playing for a number of years as a professional baseball player and even at that point you’re still not thinking that this is going to be your career?” Yes Interviewer: “Did you think that you were just going to keep playing?” I never thought that it would last that long you know. We played night after night wondering how long we were going to be together because sometimes they were talking you know, about breaking up and things like that, but we never did, so we just kept on playing. 13 �Interviewer: “What was your last year? You lasted until?” 1950 Interviewer: “The league went on until 1954, how come you left in 1950?” 40:31 I got married, yes in 1950 I got married Interviewer: “And you just decided that you weren’t going you play baseball anymore?” Yeah, and things were getting different and my boyfriend Donald Steffes said, “it’s either me or baseball”, so I quit and got married. Interviewer: “So, after that, after you finished, did you miss playing baseball?” Oh, yeah you do Interviewer: “Did you ever play another sport after that?” No, I was married and lived the married life. Interviewer: “Did you talk about your baseball experience after you were done?” 41:34 Oh, we always talked about it, anyone we met we talked about it and I use to come to the reunions too and continue to come. Interviewer: “Well, how did you hear about—did you come to the first reunion?” Yeah, I think I’ve been to all of them, oh yeah. Interviewer: “All of them, now let me ask you a real dumb question, why do you come to the reunions?” To see, to meet and talk baseball, that’s all we do you know, we get there and we tell about all these crazy plays we make or something and they will say, “oh, you were so 14 �dumb, you were supposed to the other base”, and they all laugh about it you know. It was great and the best part of my life. Interviewer: “What are some of the stories that you tell at the reunion?” 42:32 Oh, I don’t know Interviewer: “Well third base gets a lot of action.” Oh yeah, yeah it does Interviewer: “Especially when you have bases loaded.” Right, right Interviewer: “Well, let me ask you this, you did talk about your experiences with baseball and a lot of the girls never talked about it, didn’t tell their kids, didn’t tell anybody.” Oh yeah, you ought to see my room and what I got, pictures and everything and I’ve gotta—and after seeing those pictures downstairs I start saying mine aren’t so good because they’re great. Interviewer: “Were people interested in talking about baseball?” Anybody that met me would talk about it and, “are you still playing?” The first question anybody will ask you, “are you still going back?” 43:31 Interviewer: “Did you get a chance to see the movie “A League of Their Own”?” Yeah, we were in it, we were in it and we were showing them how not to throw it so hard and we laughed and had more fun with that. Interviewer: “What did you think of the movie?” We thought it was great and I thought it was great. A lot of them that saw it came out came out of their shell and said, “never knew there was any ball league”, and those 15 �pictures they had over here, they aught to put them in a book. You talk to somebody and they say, “I didn’t know that”. 44:30 Interviewer: “What do you make of all the—the movie came out and in some ways you’re treated like movie stars. What do you think about that?” Well, we were for a while there you know. We did some crazy things with them I’m telling you. Every time you would hit the ball or something they would say, “don’t throw it so hard”, or something and we just sat down and laughed because they wanted to make the picture, but they didn’t want to do the business, but it was great, the whole thing you know. Interviewer: “You went to Cooperstown?” Yes Interviewer: “How was that experience of getting inducted into the hall of fame?” That was great, that was the first time I saw the whole thing you know and it is just beautiful there. 45:30 Interviewer: “the movie, I thought, did a pretty good job out of showing the reactions of the players in there and were you in that scene in the movie?” Yes Interviewer: “I’ll look for you the next time I look at it, Ok?” Yes Interviewer: “It’s interesting because I teach at the university level and the kids are usually anywhere from eighteen to twenty and when I told them I’m doing this documentary about the All American Girls Professional Baseball League, and A league of their Own, they get all excited over it.” 16 �Everybody loves it and they say, “are you—did you see that picture?” I say, “ yeah, I was in it”, and they say, “you were?” It was really great and we loved it all the time we were working on it. Interviewer: “That was just a few years of your life, a small part of your life, but how do you look back on that period now? How do you look at it? Is it some thing that’s very special to you or is it something that just happened? Have you had a chance to think about it?” 46:41 It’s very special to me because I lived for it and a month before I had to leave town, I was packing, so it meant everything to us and kids would say, “where is everybody?” They are different people you know and there was something, the love for the game and we still loved the people around there and talked to them. We didn’t think we were stars or anything. Interviewer: “But you played professional baseball.” 47:41 Yeah, that’s right Interviewer: “One other question for you, did your mom ever get a chance to see you play baseball?” Yes, I think she saw one game and she would say, “I’m not going to watch you get hurt, I can’t watch you get hurt”, and that’s the first thing she always thought of. She would say, “you’re going to get hurt”, and I said, “well when the ball is hit to me real hard, I’ll get out of the way ma”, and she would say, “Yeah, I’ll believe that when I see it” Interviewer: “You said earlier that your dad didn’t care one way or the other, did he get a chance to see you play?” 48:28 17 �He probably did, but he wasn’t interested in it. Girls should be in the house, you know, and wash the dishes. I’m so sick of washing dishes. Interviewer: “When did your parents find out that you played for the league? Did they know early on?” Not really, not really it didn’t mean anything to them that I went out of town. They thought anybody can do that, we all play ball. Interviewer: “But that all changed.” Oh yeah and as the years go by it means more to them. Interviewer: “You have a special family her, this—you have your own family, but you have another family that’s all these other girls and all their daughters and their sons and whatnot.” We have a big family when we all get together and they all feel the same way and the mothers talk just like they do, you know. 49:47 Interviewer: “What do you think about this All American Girls Professional Baseball League? It’s part of American history now.” Yes, yes it is Interviewer: “Did you ever think it was going to be that big of a deal?” No, it was getting slowly and they would get it out there once in a while, but they get it out there now and everybody says, “A League of Their Own is on”, and everybody is going and I say, “A League of Their Own”. Interviewer: “If it’s on TV I can’t change the channel, I just—I don’t care where it starts or where it ends, I just watch it. My favorite scene is the Tom Hanks and Geena Davis when she’s about to go with her husband and leave and she said it got 18 �too hard and he said, “It’s supposed to be hard, if it wasn’t hard everybody could do it”. 50:46 Yeah Interviewer: “That’s an amazing scene and I use that in class, you gotta work at it.” It makes sense Interviewer: “did you get a chance to travel to other countries? Some of the girls went to Cuba.” Yes, I did Interviewer: “How was that experience?” I don’t know really. Interviewer: “Just another ball game?” It’s another ball game, it’s another country and they start talking and I say, “ya, ya, sure”, you don’t know what they’re talking about and they touch you. We were walking in a parade coming to the stadium one time and they touch you and get on the floor and holler, they just go out of their minds. They toss somebody and the guys that are keeping the line straight and they go up to them and are beating them with a Billy club and they didn’t care how they hit them. 52:05 Interviewer: “The public was just going crazy about it, so the police came?” Outside yeah, the police would get them if they would stick in their hand to touch you. Interviewer: “Where else did you travel to besides Cuba? Did you go any other places?” Yeah, I went on the train, I’m trying to think where I went in the wintertime. I played somewhere, I forgot already. 19 �Interviewer: “Was it South America? No” I was in Puerto Rico Interviewer: “Once again, just another ball game?” Yeah Interviewer: “No Billy clubs this time I hope.” No, sometimes they will just run in and do something and run out. Somebody had been talking and they said it’s like holy people when they run out and throw their arms up and holler. It’s something sacred and that’s why they come and run out. You got to stop it because the parade is going on. 53:33 Interviewer: “They thought you were somehow holy people, huh?” Yeah, little do they know, huh? Interviewer: “Well Helen it’s been a pleasure talking to you. Is there any story that you just want to be able to tell because I know you talk to your friends about things. Are there any stories that you can think of off the top of your head?” Right now I can’t remember. Interviewer: “All right.” 20 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_HFilarski Title A name given to the resource Filarski, Helen (Interview transcript and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Filarski, Helen Description An account of the resource Helen Filarski Steffes was born in Detroit, Michigan in 1924. She grew up playing baseball with boys in the neighborhood. She met some of the players from the All American league who encouraged her to try out, and went on to play third base for Rockford, Peoria, Kenosha and South Bend between 1944 and 1950. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Illinois Baseball players--Wisconsin Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-07-02 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/41d087b9127acdcb485509201188988e.mp4 fed9d551737081ab7fe135202a35fe0a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/04969cfe6d881664277b8640c995c541.pdf ebbab5520f98cfdacb2f9e24102d7444 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veteran’s History Project Interviewee’s Name: Mary Froning Length of Interview: (43:24) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Lindsey Thatcher, April 14, 2011 Interviewer: “Okay, let’s begin with your full name and where and when were you born?” My full name is Mary Froning O’Meara. I was born in Minster, Ohio 8/26/1934. Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like? What was the family situation?” I lived with my mother and father in this small town in Minster, Ohio. It was an all German community and I went to an elementary school and high school there. I lived across the street. Actually the whole town is Catholic and a big church down the block from myself. In my early childhood, I have also a twin sister, so my twin sister and I went to (01:00)Minster grade school and Minster High School. The eighth grade through grade school and four years at the high school. Interviewer: “Now, were there any organized sports for girls at the Catholic school?” Actually it isn’t a Catholic school. Interviewer: “Okay.” It was run by the state. We had the only school in the state of Ohio that was run by the state of Ohio. We had nuns, we had priests and instead of saying religion they called it ethics in school. But, anyhow, back to your other question is, we had the CYO organization, which was the Catholic Youth Organization. In which I participated in when I was in the 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th and through high school and that was the only sport I could play. (2:02) Interviewer: “What was the sport?” It was softball. So I played that, the first coach I had was a priest, and from then on it was different coaches. Interviewer: “Now did you play with your sister also, play ball?” Yes, she also played. Martha played second base and I was short stop. �2 Interviewer: “Is this water for…” No, I’m okay. I’m fine. Interviewer: “The, okay, I went to Catholic school with the real uniforms and the white socks and the little patch and the whole bit, you didn’t have to go through that, huh?” No. Interviewer: “The softball you played was part of the school curriculum?” No, this was different, it was a club sport. You didn’t have to pay to get in. You just tried out and make the team (03:00). It was just something for the girls to do. I loved softball, so I tried out for it and made it when I was in the fifth grade. Interviewer: “Wow! So each year, each school year, where would the baseball played during that period of time? During the summers only?” What do you mean, the baseball? Can I have some water? Interviewer: “Sure, Tom, can we have….here is the water.” Okay… Interviewer: “Alright, Tom? Playing during the summer for 5th grade, 6th grade, all the way through every single summer through…” Except when I was scouted to play in my junior year. Interviewer: “Wait a minute, I don’t want to get there quite yet. What I am trying to get across, what I want to get across, is that when you are playing that regularly, especially as a young person, you are going to get better. The more you play, you’re going to get better (04:00). So, was there a lot of competition between you and your sister about?” No, Martha and I, I mean it was good practice, because we could go home and throw the ball. Actually, when I was playing probably in the 8th or 9th grade, I knew I was better than practically anybody else. So I could run fast, I could throw, I had a good arm, I could hit. And so when we played other teams, when I came up to bat and I could make home runs and outrun them. And my sister Martha and I would make double plays, so that helped us. I had my friend Kay Horsema in left field and she played at that point. Interviewer: “Were your parents supportive of this?” Yes. Interviewer: “I was going to say the equipment…” �3 They would come watch us play. I had two older brothers, I should say one older and one younger than me. (04:58) As for as playing sports, I loved it; I mean it, I could probably have been on the boy’s baseball team in high school. Being a girl, there was no way to do it. So instead of that I became a cheerleader. And that’s what we could do; we could be a cheerleader for basketball and football. Interviewer: “Now, had you heard about the women’s professional, Professional All American Girls Baseball Team, when you were in school?” No. Interviewer: “Okay.” If we are going to get when I was recruited, I was a junior in high school. I was playing on a Sunday afternoon, softball. And, apparently in South Bend, they do have a Board of Directors. So one of the board of director’s mother lives in Minster, Ohio, he was coming by apparently (06:00), and a week later, he sent me a contract. My dad and I looked at it, my mother looked at it and he said it’s not softball, this is baseball. And I thought it is in South Bend, Indiana. I had never been there and I should say the other team that was there was in Fort Wayne which is only seventy miles away. I never heard of them, I never did. Nobody wrote it in the paper, what small town that we had. The Dayton Daily News did not pick it up. So in so far as knowing what to do, they sent me the contract. I looked at it and said I will certainly try out. That is in 1951, this was in March. I went in to Spring Training in May in South Bend. There must have been probably, I would say, about a hundred trying out (06:59), there were four positions. Being rookies and with the manager which was Karl Winsch to play ball. Interviewer: “Now, how did you get there?” By bus, my first Greyhound bus ride, that was wonderful. I went from Salina to South Bend, Indiana. Interviewer: “You were sixteen?” I was sixteen years old. Interviewer: “How was that trip, what were you thinking about?” Nothing, you know, here I am on the bus going to play baseball. That’s all I could think about, meeting different people, and the person actually the board of directors, the gentleman that did it. I stayed with him for the first couple of days. And the other hard part was getting on a trolley to go to the Palin Park, is where we played. That was hard. Where I was coming from you were in a car or you were walking, or riding a bike, right? That was enjoyable too. Because South Bend was quite large at the time it had a hundred and fifty thousand people and you’re looking at my home town which had 1,500. �4 (08:18) Interviewer: “Now, where was your twin sister in all this?” My twin sister was at home, she also tried out, but when the tryouts came, she did not want to play ball. She wanted to become a nurse, so she went home and did that. She did become a nurse. Interviewer: “Okay, so she did.” Yes. Interviewer: “But you had the opportunity- you wanted to play?” I wanted to play. Interviewer: “But, the thing I am a little confused about is the, you had been playing softball since fifth grade…” Yes. Interviewer: “And now you are being asked to, by this time the league had hardball. Right?” Oh, yes. Interviewer: “Oh, Yeah.” By the time, it came in 1951, it was overhand pitching and the size of the ball was ten inches and the pitching mound was fifty-five feet and the bases were, I think at that point seventy or longer (9:17). And so this was the first time in my entire life, so what I did first was I had a baseball from my brother and I started throwing the baseball and that helped. So when I got there before the try outs I knew how to hit, I knew how to throw and we would hit, Karl the manger, would hit the flies to us in the outfield. They called me, well they really called me flash, fearless running over fences and stuff. So I tried out in South Bend and there were quite a few people there. They took four, and I was one of the four, (10:01) so. One of the high points of my life; here I am I am going to be really playing I get a uniform that is a skirt, I can slide, a uniform that’s a skirt which I normally had pants on before. I looked at it and I said “Gosh, look at that uniform, it looks wonderful!” It did. We had socks and stirrups and baseball caps. Interviewer: “All of the girls that I have talked to about the uniform said that they had to adjust it in some way; did you have to do that with yours?” Yes, well actually when I came there you would try one on and they also had a seamstress, so if it was too long you know, which I wanted a mini skirt like anyhow…she would adjust it to your size. So we had two uniforms, we had one on (11:00) the road and one at home. So they would �5 have them dry cleaned after you left to go on a road trip and when you came home it was waiting for you. Interviewer: “Now you move, during the season you moved to South Bend?” Oh, yes. Interviewer: “Where did you stay?” I stayed, all of us stayed with people in homes. I was in a house with other rookies. In fact Lois Youngen, Dolly Vanderlip, and another girl I can’t remember her name. We stayed with a lady by the name of Mrs. Kelly. So there is where we stayed and after we played ball we came back and we stayed with her and then we went on the road and when we came back we would stay with her. She was paid, I don’t think we paid her, I think the League (12:00) or I think we did pay her. Interviewer: “So it was rent. You were basically renting a room in the, yeah. So how was the first season rookie?” The first season I sat on the bench. My manager Karl said: “Mary, I want you to learn this game”. In 1951 the South Bend Blue Sox won the world series so there was no way, every position was taken care of and there was no way that I could get out there unless somebody broke a leg. But what they did do was to, I would pitch one inning. So I would hit and I would go to first base on my way out, so that’s okay because I was fast. I also sat on the bench and he said “I want you to watch what you do and what signs I give you so that when you are up to bat you know what it is”. The other thing I would do, which I don’t know (13:00), is I would sit on the bench and they did smoke, I would hold their cigarettes when they were on the field and they would come back and they would have it. It was very interesting the first year, it was hard. It was so different from softball because you had longer bases and actually you could steal without having to worry about the pitch going over home plate and stuff so that was my first year experience. Interviewer: “Now once you had your first season, did you return back home?” I returned back to Minster. I finished my senior year at Minster, Ohio and I graduated and at that point they let us know when to come for spring training. So that was, we played 112 games a year so spring training was at, sort of like at the end of April. I graduated May 22 (14:00), I went back for graduation and then I continued on with the team in 1952. Interviewer: “Now, when you got back from your first season and you were back in school now, was anybody talking to you about the fact that you played professional baseball?” No because they had no idea what I was doing, no idea. Even my, my mother and father used to come to Ft. Wayne to watch me play, in 1952. Because that was where we did play and it was �6 only 7 miles away so they saw me play. My brother came with his wife and they saw me and Martha did too, my sister. But as far as people in Minster knowing that I was a professional baseball player and that I was getting paid, not very much but it was enjoyable. They had no idea. What is (15:00)_ summer and do? I played and was a professional baseball player. And that’s what I am. Everyone in South Bend knew about the girls, everybody in Ft. Wayne knew who the girls were. Everybody in Michigan knew about the girls: Grand Rapids, Muskegon, Battle Creek they all knew who we were, Racine, the other teams. Everybody in the city knew. Because what they did they had post scores, they would be on radio in South Bend, they would be on the radio and they would interview you. And I had my photograph taken and they would put the photograph in the store downtown in South Bend and they would have the schedule on us, and people would come out and watch the South Bend Blue Sox play. And that was how there was advertising. Interviewer: “How was your second season?” Second season, okay. That would 1953. I got better. I hit home runs inside the park homeruns. Interviewer: “But the team is giving you a chance to play now?” Oh, yes. Because a lot of them at that point, a lot of ones that had played all along… Interviewer: “The veterans?” Yes the veterans. They went off to (16:30) school to further their educations, you know teachers. Or they went back to work, or…and I was only 17, I mean I didn’t have a job I wanted to play ball. Interviewer: “So now you have gone from being rookie, into playing in the regular lineup?” Yes, and I did this for 3 years. Interviewer: “Now was there any sense, I realize you were 17 or 18 years old, but was there any sense that this was going to be your career, baseball?” I never really thought about it. The thing that I thought about was “Here I am, playing baseball. I do get money to play”. As far as the going back to school, it never entered my mind. Because every, after the season was over I would work I stayed in Kalamazoo one season and worked, and another season I stayed in Rockford. So every season after our season I did work. Interviewer: “Now your sister already knew what she wanted to do?” Yes. Interviewer: “She wanted to be a nurse?” �7 Yes, a nurse. Interviewer: “Now was there any discussion either with your sister or your parents about what you were going to do? Besides play baseball.” No, I mean there wasn’t (18:00) very many opportunities in 1952 when you graduated to do as far as, you could get married, you could go to school to become a nurse, you could work in the factory, or you could further your education and become a teacher. Now those were your choices. So at that point I said “I don’t want any of those choices, that’s not me”. So I just kept playing ball and then when I was in, actually in Rockford working there. My friend who flew for TWA, called me and she said “Mary, I want you to come and I want you to interview with 3 different airlines, I would like for you, if you would like to do this, come up to Chicago and interview”. So at that point afterwards I think it was 56? No 55 and 56 that’s when I went. I was interviewed with the airlines was something else. I go up there I was to be at a certain time in Chicago. At midnight all the interviews took place with the airlines (19:30). My first one was with TWA, my second one was with United and the third was with Parody airlines. So I had a certain time I was interviewing with this young man, and he was asking me what I did before I came and what my education was and why I am here and all of that. So I started to tell him about my career before I came and I told him I played professional baseball and he stopped right in his tracks. He had no idea that even in Chicago; we weren’t written up in the paper in Chicago that I had played professional baseball. And at that point we had no baseball cards so I couldn’t prove him that I had played. So he said that’s really nice. So he said “I’m going to set you up with another interview and I want you to come back, but first of all I want you to go to charm school”. So I had to go to charm school for a week, for the make-up and for the walking and everything to be in the airlines. So I did that for a week, I came back and also what helps too, is that you are interviewed by different people, not the same person (21:00). So I was interviewed by a different person and I made it. Interviewer: “I know that when you started out your first year, the charm school for the League had already stopped right? So you had didn’t have any of that kind of…?” No we had none of that. Charm school I think was ’43 when we first started. We had one of the ladies to look like ladies, no short haircuts you always had to wear lipstick, you always had to be, you couldn’t smoke you always had to wear dresses, no slacks no jeans. You had to set yourself as elegant. Interviewer: “In your first couple of seasons, how were the fans?” The fans were great. Actually in South Bend I would say there may be about 2 or 3,000 people who would come. The majority were night games. And the fans all the ladies wore dresses all the men had suits on all the men had hats on, nobody ever had shorts on they were always dressed like men and women. �8 Interviewer: “The, you said that you had sometimes 2 or 3,000 people show up?” Yes we did, and these were night games. You always started at 7 or 7:30. We always had programs you could buy. The programs were 25 cents, no programs were 10 cents. To get in was 25 cents. So it was very, people loved us they were very (23:00) came out, everybody was happy to see us play and would ask for our autograph. And after we played we all went out for dinner. Or if we had a road trip after we would eat and then get on the bus for the longest trip on the bus was from South Bend to Rockford that was a long one. We would arrive in Rockford in the early morning. People were walking going to work. And Karl would, we were all on the bus and Karl would open the door up and say “Come on out and watch us beat the Peaches”. And they would laugh and people would say “Oh no you’re not”. So that’s how we got fans too. But everybody loved the Peaches so they had a big following that really nice for them, same as in Kalamazoo. They also had a big draw they had a brand new stadium and ball park to play in. Interviewer: “What were the road trips like?” Road trips were fun I mean you would be tired from playing the game, 9 innings of ball and then you would get on and you had to put your dress on and your skirt on and sit there and you got some sleep but not a lot, so actually if you did arrive (24:30) say in Rockford, you would go to the hotel and you would nap for awhile and then you would get up. A lot of it was like “Where am I today?” and then we would be like, “Oh, we’re in Rockford”. We’d get up and we had practice, and if we did lose games we had practice every day after that. We would have, Karl, we would have meetings in the morning Karl would give us our signs for the game for that night I should say. Interviewer: “By signs you mean the special stuff they would do with you?” Yes, the special stuff that would they said, right. Actually if you stepped out the box you would look at him, I was very good at bunting. I could easily be the first or second to enter and I had lots of people enter behind me, and I loved to steal bases. Interviewer: “I only played Little League but my claim to fame is that I hit a homerun on a bunt.” On a bunt? When you were 5 years… Interviewer: “The other team was over throwing and everything. I didn’t know what I was doing I was just, I was a fairly decent pitcher but I couldn’t hit for anything.” That was a lot of people’s problems. You could catch, you could run: hitting takes an eye. We had several, several women (26:00) who were just very good hitters, excellent. Interviewer: “So as of the third year, the fourth year were the fans, were you still getting more people? Because I’ve heard from some that there were less people. �9 Yeah, actually it dwindled. Remember the war was over in ’45. All the baseball players, the Major League baseball players came back. So they drew more in Chicago and they drew more in where they had the major leagues more. These teams had started probably about 1952. I remember we had one set in Minster Ohio and everybody went over to witness it, Howdy Doody was on. so the TV came in ’52. In ’53 there was still a lot of people enjoying our League because it was still a League. In ’54 it started to dwindle, but not too many people, by not too many people I mean we still had 5 or 600 people and that was when we the League started to disband. It had gone 12 years, there was no more new interest. Interviewer: “Now what was there discussion amongst you about what is going to happen next year (27:30)? Are we going to be working anymore?” No, actually when I left, I received a letter in 1954…’55 I should say, that the League was disbanding and there would be no more professional baseball. Interviewer: “What was your reaction to that?” I was sad. It was something I had done over the summers. Why quit now? That was, there was no more baseball. So I decided to pursue my other life. Interviewer: “Now you then got into the airlines, you have continued on. Now, did you ever talk about the fact that you were a baseball player when you were employed by the airlines?” No, I did not. Because at that point nobody knew it, I could say “Yes, I played professional baseball”; well I proved it one time we were on a flight going from Chicago to Syracuse and we actually got off the flight, I remember we had 108 inches of snow, and the snow banks were umpteen feet up in the air as we came in (29:00). Now I’m flying on a Conveyer that seats 40 people, we have 1 pilot, and we have no flight engineers, so when we go down everybody has their own individual room. So the guy the pilot thought that he would be pretty smart and he was going to throw us a snowball. Well he did, that was completely wrong. Because I picked up one, and he never knew what hit him. That was the, at that point I couldn’t say “Well, I played professional baseball”, you know that’s why I just about gave it to him. But, no I never talked about it. I was never recognized in my hometown of Minster Ohio as being a professional baseball player. The only time that I was recognized in Minster, we were they have parades during Oktoberfest so my friend Katie and I were in the parade for being recognized as baseball players. Interviewer: “Now when was this? Was this in the late ‘50s or ‘60s, much later?” It was later, yes much later after maybe 20 years. Interviewer: “Okay, almost every one of you that I have talked to that they just didn’t talk about it (30:30), they didn’t tell their kids about it or anything like that. But at some point �10 you went back to that period of time because did you go to that first reunion? I mean, how did you get back acquainted?” The first reunion was in Chicago in 1980 and that was really wonderful. Interviewer: “So you went?” Oh yes, absolutely. Interviewer: “I guess what I am trying to get at is that you have gone all of these years …” Without speaking about baseball, that’s right. Because nobody knew us, nobody knew what I did. I mean I graduated from high school and they said “what are you doing this summer?” I’m going to play ball. “Oh okay”. Nobody came out to watch me nobody from Minster came out to watch me. It was like you must have done something bad. No, I didn’t do something bad, I played baseball; and so when they made the movie that’s what really, really helped us. Then people recognized what we did. And the people in my hometown did and they had parades for it like I told you about. So that was wonderful and I told my family I played ball and they knew I played ball because I coached them into how to play ball-softball, that’s what I played. And my son was a baseball player and they knew that I played. And I was on the city league (32:00) and the girl and I was playing fast pitch softball and I started to bunt and she said “Where did you learn that?” I played professional baseball. “You played professional baseball?” So that’s how it came about so as you know and everybody A League of Their Own movie helped us. Interviewer: “What did you think of the movie?” I thought it was great. Actually I met, I was there in Scopie? _, I was one of the 50 or 55 that went there for a part in the movie. We met other people that were in the movie. We met Penny Marshall, I threw softball with her, they had baseballs and softballs, and well they had baseballs. But I threw ball with her and Madonna was there and she was sort of off limits so I got her autograph but she came in her big Cadillac with body guards. Well she was famous; she made a lot of money. So Penny was very grateful that she was in the movie and then before that she had made big, so Tom Hanks is a tremendous baseball player and he loved being the coach. “You mean I don’t have to get skinny?”, and anyway so it was the idea that he was [Jimmy Fox?]. Anyway, her daughter was in the (33:30) movie I met all of the players I mean Penny, Rosie, and these people really are why we became famous. And that’s why the movie was, everybody was crazy for it. Interviewer: “How did your life change after that movie came out?” Actually I was playing softball and the ladies I taught how to play softball knew that I had played professional baseball and they had an idea, but they didn’t know really what I did, they knew I played for the South Bend Blue Sox so when the movie came to Madison I was there and I was �11 interviewed by the people from the TV station about they interviewed me. I knew that at that point they thought “Wow, she lives in Madison and she played professional baseball”. Interviewer: “This is going to sound like a stupid question but why do you come to the reunions?” I actually come to the reunions to see my friends. The majority of my friends played 51-54. I do know some of the ladies that played at the beginning of the League and it was (35:00), so I come because I enjoy being with the people and being interviewed by people. It is very nice the reunions are very well organized, the people are very nice. And you see different kinds, I had never been to Detroit so we come and I enjoy it. Interviewer: “Now you mentioned a son, so you did eventually get married?” Yes, I got married in 1958. Interviewer: “Okay.” So in 1958 after I flew for the airlines for a time before and during when I was flying. We got married in 1958 and I could not go back and become a stewardess, it was not allowed. So after marriage you could not fly, if you wore glasses you could not fly, you had to be a certain height a certain weight, oh yes there were lots and lots of restrictions. So I got married in 1958 and we moved to Madison and I raised 4 children, 3 daughters and a son. Interviewer: “And you said earlier that they knew about your baseball career, but did you let them know early on or is it something that they found out on their own later when the movie came out (36:30), your kids?” Oh they knew before when they grew up and realized that I also organized my son’s baseball and they knew that I had played baseball and other coaches asked me to do this for them. But nobody knew that how many teams there were how many players had done this and when we did this in ’43, nobody knew that. So it was, I mean it as we could say again, when the movie came out everybody knew. Interviewer: “What do you make of all of this superstardom? I mean think about it for a moment, there are baseball teams all over place, and there are fans. But I have never experienced the kind of adoration that the public seems to have for your group. You see it little girls coming up to you, you see the public ‘Oh!’ of course they always say A League of Their Own and you are right it is the movie that really made that known, but what do you think about this whole hoopla, my gosh?” I think that, even when I was on a plane coming here, sitting next to the guy “What are you going to do in Detroit?” “Well I’m going to a baseball reunion”. “You mean A League of Their Own?” “Yes, that what I mean”, and everybody around me turned around (38:00) to see what I looked �12 like and what I did. So I explained to everybody what I did, I played ball. I think the majority is when people come to our reunion and the look at us and say “Now you actually played baseball, not softball?” “Baseball.” and they admire that, little kid’s do. All the little kids do, actually I coach little kids, they didn’t know I played baseball but they knew I knew baseball and that was the idea behind it. I knew what to do. I knew what to do when I coached my son’s team, that’s what they asked me to do. I had two kids that I coached and played softball, these ladies, their daughters played and they came up and asked me if I would coach them and teach them how to play softball, so I did it for 15 years. I told them we’ll have practice on Tuesday and play on Thursday, they did and they enjoyed it. Interviewer: “I know that the questions I have asked of all of you that during the period of the time that you played it was for the love of the game it was the fun the camaraderie, and never really thought (39:30) that it was going to go anywhere beyond that. But now people are saying to you, I am saying to you that this was an important part of American history. Now I’m, pretty sure none of you thought ‘hmm, I’m going to play baseball and be a part of American history.’ But how do you, I mean you have to accept the fact that people are looking at this, you are put in the baseball hall of fame, Ken burns did a documentary out baseball and said here was this amazing period of time, how do you react to this, this realization that you are part of American history ?” Yes, which at the time we were playing we had no idea that we would be recognized in the baseball hall of fame and that we were a part of history. And the part of history never entered our minds until they said okay we will make a movie about you. You are the pioneers of baseball; and then it hit us. That we did do something that was great. Interviewer: “How do you look back on that period now. I mean you get a chance to reflect about this. You’ve had a full life, you have had kids you have a husband, this is just a small segment?” A small segment. Yes that was like, I was growing up. I was 16, I had I didn’t have to go to school anymore I just played ball and I actually made (41:00) money. I knew eventually up ahead that I would have to go on with my life with school or get a job or something but at that point, when I was playing I never thought about it. I never could, because I didn’t think that we were the pioneers of baseball, It was when I was playing softball in Minster, I’m not a pioneer of softball however I am a pioneer of professional baseball and that’s what is great. Interviewer: “Does that, looking back on it did those 4 years have a major impact on the person you became?” Well, no I don’t think so it was a lot of discipline which I had to have because I was quite proud in high school. The idea was that it was a lot of discipline and Karl was a very good manager and, no I think in the 4 years that I played the enjoyment of playing a sport 4 years was �13 wonderful. An organized team and I didn’t think I was a pioneer of baseball I was just an All American that played ball. Interviewer: “Thank you so much, wonderful wonderful.” Thank you. (42:33) �14 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_MFroning1123BB Title A name given to the resource Froning, Mary (Interview transcript and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Froning, Mary Description An account of the resource Mary Froning O'Meara was born in Minster, Ohio, in 1934. She played on softball teams run by the local Catholic Youth Organization while in school, and was recruited into the AAGPBL in 1951. She played outfield for the South Bend Blue Sox from 1951 until the league folded in 1954. After baseball, she worked as an airline stewardess for several years, and then married and raised a family, and continued to play and coach baseball and softball. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank(Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Baseball players--Indiana Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-08-08 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b8fd1bbd0fa463a5aa10108b00ad5c2a.mp4 06d61d88545864e9d65d52d0d53eec8e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c59b2669d7199bfb9db74883eed6c3bf.pdf fd9f8b72445acd162eb9b6038fdc7674 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW GINGER GASCON Women in Baseball Born: Chicago, Illinois, 1931 Resides: Elk Grove Village, Illinois Interviewed by: James Smither Ph.D, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 6, 2010, Detroit, MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion. Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, February 10, 2011 Interviewer: “Ginger, can we start off by you telling us a little bit about your background. Where and when were you born?” I was born in Chicago in 1931. Interviewer: “Did you grow up in Chicago?” I did, I grew up in Chicago. Interviewer: “What neighborhood did you live in?” We lived in a few different neighborhoods, one on the west side of Chicago, but the one I remember the best is the one near Wrigley field, near Hawthorn school. I think we moved there when I was about eight or ten and we stayed there until I was eighteen. Interviewer: “What did your family do for a living?” My dad was a truck driver and he use to drive paper goods to northern Minnesota and Michigan and come back and deliver down to the Chicago Tribune building. My mother was a housewife and she was an Irish immigrant. 42:48 Interviewer: “Was your father able to keep that job through the thirties?” Whatever he did he was on “Papa Works Again” and he use to bring home Blueberry pie and whatever his main work was I don’t know, but that’s what it was to keep the fellas going and that was good Interviewer: “Jobs were not always easy at that point.” 1 �Not at that point. Interviewer: “How did you get involved playing sports?” I happen to be the only girl in the neighborhood of all boys and that was from age ten on, so if I didn’t play with them, I wouldn’t be playing with anybody. I started out on the playgrounds and I played ball there and I was pretty good. I was one of the better ones that always went off to the division meeting and everything. Interviewer: “Were you playing in organized leagues?” No, remember I was ten or twelve years old, but I had an uncle who was a cop and he was a policeman on the gate at Wrigley Field and I only had about a six block walk down there. 43:46 When he would see me, he would say, “come on, get in”, so I got to watch Phil Cavarretta, Andy Pafko and those fellas and I just kind of fell in love with it from playing—we started out with sixteen inch and fourteen inch. Interviewer: “So, you’re playing softball in the street?” Playing softball Interviewer: “You were there in 1945, the last time the cubs were in the World Series?” Yes, I think so, but I don’t remember going to that World Series. Interviewer: “You might have been in school by then?” Yes, I think I was in school. Interviewer: “It might have been a little bit harder to get in.” Yeah, but when I was in school during WWII, they use to let some of us out of school to go out and collect tine and things during the day and that was kind of fun to go around the neighborhood and do things like that. When I got one of my first jobs I was the only 2 �girls in that district with all boys that delivered newspapers and that was nice because some of the boys were a little lazy and they would ask me to take their route for the day and I would make a few dollars there and I kind of liked that. 44:47 Interviewer: “All right, now at what point did you start to play more organized ball?” Fifteen, sixteen and there was a team, they were all farm teams for this all American league, and I played on the North Town Debs and there was the south group of girls that played too and when they created the Sallies and the Colleens, I went with the Sallies and some of my friends went with the Colleens and we toured the United States. I know you’ve heard that before, all the various cities and states. Interviewer: “Right, so let’s back up a little bit to that first stage. How did you wind up joining that first team?” Joining the first team? They picked you, they looked for the best athletes and they picked you. Interviewer: “How did they find you or where did they locate you?” On the playgrounds, it started on the playgrounds in Chicago. Interviewer: “So you weren’t playing in an organized softball league or anything like that?” 45:44 I was on a girl’s team in Chicago, but it was just eighth graders or something like that. Interviewer: “But they were actually scouting the neighborhoods to go find people.” Scouting the neighborhoods or they would here about and go and ask the athletic directors and we did tryout for that, that’s right, we did tryout for those farm teams. Interviewer: “Once you’re on one of those teams do you just live at home?” 3 �You live at home and go out three or four nights a week and on the week-end and play each other in various parks in the city. Interviewer: “What did your family think about that?” They didn’t mind, they liked it and I was always very active and I had my paper route and everything. I had two younger sisters, so they kind of looked up to me because I would take them out to places with me, to different and various places. Interviewer: “All right, were they paying you at that point?” Let me see, when is the first time I got paid? On the traveling team in 1949. Interviewer: “So, the first level of team you’re just playing?” Yeah, you’re a farm team and you just show up and play. 46:47 No money involved, just your skill level and all that. Interviewer: “So, did you do that for one year or two or?” Probably two years, I played for two years. Interviewer: “How do you get up to the next level?” That’s when you tried out, they had tryouts for the All Americans and that’s when they picked you again from that group, so that’s how some of us got in. Interviewer: “Where were they doing the tryouts?” At the various parks around—in Skokie, the tryouts were there and see, Wrigley Field had already had all the girls back for the first stage and now this comes five years later and then the coaches came and looked at us and picked and put us, after we traveled and di that for the year, they picked us to come to whatever teams and you probably heard that story from other girls. The balanced the teams by skill level and whatever they needed. 47:48 4 �Interviewer: “So, what was the year then that you started playing with the traveling teams?” 1949 and in 1950 I came back and played with Chicago for a year, underhand fast pitch with the Bluebirds and then I went back in 1951 to the Grand Rapids Chicks and finally I settled in and played another three years with the Bluebirds because I could hold a day job and play ball and I had two salaries. Interviewer: “The Bluebirds, was that a semi-pro softball team?” It was a pro team also, you paid to get in and we got paid. I started out with that team at about a hundred dollars a week and went up to a hundred and a quarter. See, the all Americans was fifty five and seventy five, but holding the day job was the bonus because you had a double salary and that’s when I started saving money for college. Interviewer: “Let’s go back to the farm team experience. Were there basically just two teams that played each other or were there more?” There were four, but I can’t remember the other two. I remember the Debs and the— you’ll hear it from one of the other ladies, the team she played on. She was a southsider and I was a northsider. 48:54 Interviewer: “Did fans come to these games?” Oh yeah, the parks were full every night. Are you familiar with Chicago Thillens Stadium on Devon and Lincoln Ave? The Thillens check cashing trucks? I don’t know if you remember seeing them running around? They sponsored us, so they gave us the money for uniforms and people came into the park at night and I think they were paying a quarter or something. Interviewer: “How do things change then when you join the traveling team?” 5 �When you join the traveling team, that’s the fun. You know you’re traveling to different cities and meeting different people and you’re on the bus singing at night. It’s just the excitement and the camaraderie of having all these friends around you all the time. You think about high school and when high school days were over, that’s who your friends are. Most of them don’t go to college and we had that extended into our twenties and we still meet. I can’t think of any other group of people who still meet from when they were in their teens. I just think we have been terribly lucky in that manner. It’s been a wonderful thing. 49:55 Interviewer: “I think the closest you get, maybe in some cases, is with military veterans. Men who served in the same unit, they have reunions, but in a way it parallels a little bit because it’s a distinctive experience more than just going to school someplace.” It’s a shared experience. Interviewer: “Right, and you’re at that point in your life that you’re becoming who you really are too. That’s a very consistent thing that we’ve had in this. Explain a little bit for people who don’t know very much about it, how did the traveling team thing work? Who was on it, what happened?” There were scouts with the All American, Max Carey and those fellas, they would go out to the major cities in America or the ones they decided they could get some interest in, and they would talk to the Chamber of Commerce and their press men and their sports people and they would arrange for us to come in at certain dates, and they did it very well because they started out in Chicago and went down to Missouri, Oklahoma and Texas. 50:56 Crossed over to Virginia and finally got back to New York and over Pennsylvania, 6 �so it was just play a game or two, get on the bus and go to the next town and play a game or two. On Sunday it was two games, we use to play two games on Sunday, but we stayed in different hotels and met different people. I remember in Michigan, Battle Creek, when these fellas would carry our luggage to the hotel, you know from the bus into and up to our rooms, we played music because we liked the rhythm and blues music and they use to hangout in the halls with us and that was a lot of fun. It was almost like you were dating groups, but it wasn’t really. Interviewer: “Did you go to New York City as part of that?” Yes, we stayed in Newark, New Jersey and we got on the train. I don’t know if anyone’s told you this, but we had Mirtha Marrero and Isabel Alvarez and it just so happened I had Spanish in high school, so I was the only one that could talk to them a little bit, so I took them on the train from Newark into New York. 51:57 We went to the Palladium because Mambo was popular at the time and then we went to the Empire State Building and of course once they saw the guys at the Palladium they were in a different kind of world than the rest of us, so I left them to go to the john and said, “don’t move, I’ll be back”, and when I came back they were gone. They were gone for hours and hours and I had to call back to the chaperone and say, “I lost the girls, they left me”, and so I got back on the train by myself and they finally showed up, but that was kind of harrowing because I felt responsible for them, but I couldn’t control them. 52:36 Interviewer: “Where did you play in New York?” We were playing in Newark, New Jersey and that was in 1949 and they played in New York in 1950, they played in one of those fields. Interviewer: “At some point they played in Yankee Stadium.” 7 �We didn’t, the 49ers didn’t, but the 50ers did. Interviewer: “What other places you stopped at stands out in your memory or have particular stories connected to them?” 53:03 When I think of Oklahoma, I think of the soil and the weather and how it was different and some of the other states. Virginia, the natural bridge and the places I saw that I wouldn’t have seen in my life, stood out to me. Ball playing, it was just exciting to play at night and to have the fans come. They always hung around and wanted autographs, but we couldn’t talk too long because we had to get to the bus and take our showers and get onto the next bus. I can tell you a story about the Cuban girls when we would come to the showers they wouldn’t shower with the rest of us, so they wanted to shower last and they did. So, we’re sitting on the bus starving, hungry and we wanted to get moving and they come lumbering along like this after making us wait forty-five more minutes. Oh, you would say things to them, but you couldn’t say too much, but that was kind of funny. Different cultures and different ways of getting things done. 54:09 Interviewer: “Did you always play each other or did you sometimes play local teams?” We always played each other when we were on tour because you took the girls that they were going to use later on to see who worked out after these games and take up to the other teams, so it was always each other and we never played outside of that. Interviewer: “Aside from the Cubans, were there particular players in that group who were particularly distinctive or were troublemakers or leaders or anything like that?” 8 �Well, not any of that really, but different ones had different personalities. I don’t know if you’re familiar with Maybelle Blair, there were girls like that, younger, that were very funny and talked loud and did funny things. 54:57 Interviewer: “Now, was Toni Palermo in that group?” Yes, she was in that group also, right. Interviewer: “She would have been one of the youngest ones.” Yes, she was maybe sixteen when I was seventeen or something. Interviewer: “What did they do to look after you? You’re taking a group of teen age, largely teenage, girls, I guess some of them were a little older, how did they look after them?” Well, the chaperones were always there. Wherever we stayed they were ever present in the hotel and they just in general watched out for us because if some of these boys want to take you out on a date or something, you would have to go through the chaperone. That lightened up though because when I was in Grand Rapids one of the reporters from the Grand Rapids Herald and I went out to dinner one night. His name was Scotty something and I don’t remember the last name, but he was telling me about the morgue. You know what the morgue is don’t you? Newspapers that they keep, so if somebody dies they go into that file and pick it out, and that was something I never knew before and something I learned from Scott. 56:00 Interviewer: “Now, does the traveling team season end before the regular one does? Was it a shorter season or did you finish at the same time maybe, what do you think?” We finished in late August and what did our girls have, a 160 game schedule? 9 �Interviewer: “Something like that.” It was something like that, but I don’t remember. Interviewer: “The playoffs for the league were a little bit later than that. Would any of the girls from the traveling teams be called up to the regular clubs or would you just stay together the whole year?” We stayed together the whole year and then they sent you to the club. No, they waited until the season was over. They didn’t pull anybody out that I recall. We picked some up on the road though; we picked up Sue Kidd in Choctaw, Arkansas. Interviewer: “Was that a common thing? Would they try people out as they went from town to town?” 56:57 I only remember that year picking her up as one particular person, but maybe they did, maybe any of the girls that played in the fifties, maybe they picked up more than one. Has anyone told you a story so far that they picked up someone? Interviewer: “ I think there were some maybe they identified and may have joined a little later. I think Sue Kidd did kind of get on the bus and go with them.” She got on the bus and went with them, that’s absolutely right. Interviewer: “Alright, they did that and once that season comes to an end—had you finished high school yet or were you still in school?” No, I hadn’t finished yet, but then you’d go back to school and once you were eighteen and out, you went back two months to the job, if you had a job. Do you know what the salaries for factory jobs were at the time? Interviewer: “Nope” 10 �Forty a week—we got more playing ball, and some ladies will say they made more money than their fathers. It’s kind of amazing isn’t it when you think of it? 57:56 Interviewer: “Although if you think of modern pro athletes in a lot of sports and so forth, that seems less surprising, but then, baseball players were not paid as well as football or anyone else.” Well, back in the seventies, I knew a Jimmy French who was with the Washington Senators when Ted Williams was the manager and these guys would get about fifteen a day for meals when they were out and they all lived on hamburgers so they could save money and it’s kind of interesting, I was down in Florida one time on vacation, and in a bar. I came with two friends, and we wanted to go to the games, the spring training games, and we found out where the fellas hung out, so we went in the bar and I was kind of looking for Jimmy French because I had met him on the farm in Pennsylvania--Eastern Ohio, right next to Pennsylvania and I said, “Anybody here know Jimmy French?” And one of the guys said, “Hell, who doesn’t know Jimmy French? He’s the only one with a masters degree in finance”. 59:00 He ended up working on the San Francisco stock market. That was kind of rare I guess for athletes to be going to get a degree and then playing ball, and they only had to play ten years to be pensioned, so every year—I don’t know if he still gets ten thousand a year or what, but that was back from the early seventies. Interviewer: “Now we’re going to go back to your story. Did they want you to come back the next year?” Yeah Interviewer: “But you decided not to.” 11 �I just decided I could make more money because I wanted to go to college and my family didn’t have any money to send me, so—and I think because I’d had a paper route and I was used to picking up spare money, I kind of knew how to do that, so when it was available to me, it would be foolish not to take it, that’s the way I looked at it. Interviewer: “So, you got the double salary while playing in Chicago and working, right?” Three years, right Interviewer: “You did that in 1950 and then in 1951 you go back to the all American?” 60:00 Yeah, I go back for a year because this team was moving on and another team didn’t want to pick me up until the year after, so that’s what I did. It was because I was rookie on this team and this team was the Chicago Queens, they won the championship that year. I don’t know if you’ve heard of them. Have you heard of the Weaver sisters? Interviewer: “Yeah” They were on that team and I was the youngest one on the team and one was pitching and one was playing shortstop. They could hit—they came out of New Orleans Jacks teams, so I had people like that around me with high skill levels, and some of the best pitchers in that league. Connie Wisnwiewski came to that league, and I know her because she came to the Grand Rapids Chicks, and she got a higher salary than the rest. It was like three hundred a week, which was very high and she made her own rules, she had a limousine drive her around, but then she bounced back after that, so I wasn’t the only one that did that. 1:01 Interviewer: “Normally what position would you play when you were playing?” 12 �Center field when I played for the Bluebirds, center field for the Grand Rapids Chicks, and second base when I played for the Sallies. Interviewer: “Was that just depending who else was on the team, where to put you?” Well, the coaches put you, they place you and you could be an infielder or an outfielder. Interviewer: “Now did you play any positions beside those two?” No, pretty much those two, and I liked center because I was pretty fast and I could cover the other people over on those ends, so it worked well for me. Interviewer: “Did you have a good throwing arm?” I threw people out at the plate from center field. Interviewer: “Could you hit?” Fairly well, not real good, but I was a pretty good base stealer when I got on. I hear Toni saying she was on base a lot and that’s kind of amazing to me, but you know and he said, “don’t let the truth get in the way of anything.” 2:00 Interviewer: “She was on base all the time, she said.” According to her, yeah and you got to love her. “What was your average? Were you batting three hundred? Because we know that girls that batted three hundred and you weren’t one of them.” You know who they were don’t you? Doris Sams, the ones they named, people have already named the better players right? So Doris Sam’s, Connie Wisnwiewski, and I can’t even think of the others right now, but-Interviewer: “She may have walked a lot.” That could have been, that might have been. 13 �Interviewer: “Alright, so as someone who ran bases a lot, did you have problems with strawberries and all of that?” Yeah Interviewer: “Did you find ways of dealing with that? Could you slide in a certain way that was less harmful?” No, when you hit the ground you’re going to land on the same spot the next time and you remember that because it’s not comfortable. Interviewer: “What kind of treatment could they provide for you?” The chaperone came out right away and rolled you over and first cleaned it off and then the Mercurichrome and of course, we never complained about anything because they would take you out of the line-up and I did not want to be taken out of the line-up. 3:08 The ball player today, when they get a hangnail they don’t play and they get all that money. Interviewer: “Well, they want to protect their investment, right?” It cracks me up Interviewer: “So, basically you’re situation in Chicago changes, but you still want to keep playing, so did you have to go tryout for the all Americans in 1951?” No, when I said I wanted to come back they said, “oh good”, and they put me on a team. Interviewer: “Alright, what do you remember about the season in Grand Rapids?” I remember getting on base in Grand Rapids and sort of outwitting the Cuban pitchers for stealing. I knew their little slow moves and whatever and throwing people out, and then the people I met, so that was the best for me. 14 �Interviewer: “Were their some pitchers that were harder to run on than others?” 3:59 Yes, tough to run on Interviewer: “Who was tough?” Well, Jean Faut, of course, and I can’t think of any right now, I’m just not pulling them up. Interviewer: “And their pitchers that you really didn’t like to have to bat against?” Well, you couldn’t control it, you did your best you know, you never gave up, never give up. Interviewer: “Where did you live when you were in Grand Rapids?” In a home with somebody, and I don’t even remember the people's name right now, but I lived in a sort of a boarding house situation once too. Interviewer: “Do you remember which field you were playing at? South Field by the high school or Bigelow Field south of town?” I think it was Bigelow Field. Interviewer: “They played there for a couple of years and then it burned down. Were the crowds good in Grand Rapids at that point?” 4:55 Yes they were, that was five years in and they were still good. It was the last two or three years that they weren’t so good and I don’t if it was a novelty and it was wearing off with people, but it was kind of sad to see it go. Some of the girls, what you call the all stars went on to play in other places around the country with Bill Allington and things like that, so that was good. Interviewer: “They did a little more barnstorming for a while anyway.” 15 �Yeah, a little more barnstorming, but that’s all that was left. I remember that wrestling came into popularity then and girls roller skating came into popularity, so I don’t want to call the American public fickle, but they tire of things after while and the guys were back, so that was a big thing. Interviewer: “That’s right because when the league started the minor leagues were pretty well shut down, so in these smaller towns and so forth, they didn’t have anything going on. 5:50 Sometimes—let’s see, it was when you’d go down to Florida and Max Carey was down there and he’s invite some of us girls to the track to bet on the dogs, he always wanted fifty cents, he was going to go in on it with two or three of us, kind of interesting huh? Interviewer: “So you play basically with Grand Rapids for one year and then what do you do after that?” After that I go to college. Interviewer: “Where did you go to college?” I went to Northeastern Illinois State in Chicago, a city college. Interviewer: “And what did you study?” Education and Psychology Interviewer: “Then what did you do with the degree once you had it?” I was an elementary teacher for six years and then after that I was a counselor for twentyeight years. Interviewer: “Where did you work?” First in Chicago and then after a year the Department of Defense started in New York and came across the country all the way to California, and they were interviewing for jobs in 16 �Europe at the army schools, so they picked me in Chicago and I went over to Europe for two years and taught in Germany. 7:00 When I came back form there—you could look for placements over there is you were deciding to come home and I found one in Parma, Ohio, so I was there for two years and then I decided I wanted to work on my masters and then I came back to Chicago. So, my career is in education. Interviewer: “Aside from getting you some funding to start college with, what kind of effects, do you think, playing organized ball for the all Americans and the softball league, what sort of effects did that have on you?” Well, the camaraderie is just so much you know, I think you’re so lucky to get that in your life, but also, you’re around all these other women of talent, you supported each other, you had role models because the girls that came before us were certain role models you know. That Wagner lady, Audrey Wagner, ended up being a doctor and things like that. The role models—“there isn’t anything you can’t do, at least give it a try”. 8:07 I don’t think a lot of kids grow up with that, you have these other things that lead you to it, these other opportunities and that’s what I think is the important thing, the opportunity and then to be lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time with the right set of skills. Interviewer: “When you were actually playing with the league, did you see yourself at all as any kind of pioneer and really doing something significant in moving women’s sports?” No, just doing what I loved to do, being physical in space and doing it well and all the other benefits that I’ve suggested. 17 �Interviewer: “Then in the seventies and in the eighties as women’s sports really start to pick up and title nine comes in and so forth, did you pay much attention to that?” 8:52 Yeah, I remember people in—all the PE teachers in the school were into this Title IX thing and all of us ladies were and I was a counselor in school, so we were always politicking for that to come into being, because it made a difference. Look at our athletes today—all as a result of Title IX. I know all the little particulars and the politics of it— not that many girls care and not that many girls want to come out and they’re taking space from the boys, but I think that gave America a boost now too. Our female athletes and all the things they’ve won, we beat China in the Olympics, things like that. Look at the women athletes in anything today, how good they are, and they have the same training, they do the workouts. What we did was calisthenics and running, we didn’t do weight work and you know how strong that enables you to be, so that’s why the women are so good today. The women’s teams are as good as us or better, but the interest is not there because you see, it’s society, it’s always the men with the bib basketball and the big baseball and it’s understandable, that’s where the money goes, that’s where everything is. 10:03 I always thought sports in America was a great outlet for men in a progressive nature. Let’s use their testosterone and I always thought, this is good because people aren’t fighting in society themselves or fighting on the streets, they’re getting rid of it in some other way and they’re getting rich too Interviewer: “That’s true and we’re not like the European soccer fans where all the violence is in the stands.” We have our heroes, we sure do. 18 �Interviewer: “Were you involved in any of the stuff leading into the creation of “A League of Their Own” and all that?” Yes, right from the beginning. People that remember people, remember where they live, “oh, she’s here”, and I got a call from Shirley Jamison, one of the first, and she was a tiny little lady the first three, four or five years and in fact that was the first pictorial section that came out in the newspaper, she was in that picture and of course years later, Isabel came out in one while she was a pitcher. 10:58 Shirley called me up and said, “I know where she’s living”, and then they told me . I went to Cooperstown in 1988 and it all kicked off from there. Interviewer: “The people you worked with and your friends, did they know you played ball?” I never told them, never talked about it. Interviewer: “Even while you’re kind of lobbying for women in sports?” Yeah, isn’t that interesting, it was just that part of my life is the way I looked at it you know. Parts of it were wonderful for me and gave me an impetus to do things. I can tell you a story—kind of an impetus to do things—I saw a movie when I was younger Roz Russell played Amelia Earhart in the movie and what was I, in my teens when I saw that or ten years old? Anyway, when I was forty years old, some kids in school came and asked me if I would sponsor a flying club, just asked me. I said, “Oh sure”, so that summer I said, “Oh my god, I better get a pilot's license, so that’s when I went to get a pilots license because I wanted their respect, I wanted to know more than them, so they would—just didn’t have someone who was just kind of a face to their thing, I wanted to know the stuff. 12:06 Then I flew for five years on a regular basis and the guys that 19 �trained me said, “Ilene, you keep coming out, why?” I said, “I love being in the air, it’s marvelous”, because he said that most women get their ticket and you never see them again, they just want to say they have a pilots license. I didn’t know that until the instructor told me that’s what most of the guys do it, but I guess we ladies are a little more serious about it, we’re just glad to be there in the first place. 12:34 Interviewer: “And do you think that having gone and just done the stuff you had done by taking on new challenges, it was no big deal to go fly?” Yes, exactly, plus I had that interest since I was maybe fifteen or sixteen. If Amelia Earhart can do it, I can do it. That’s so funny isn’t it? People need role models, boys and girls both need role models and I had my role models in the girls that played ball and that movie. In fact, that was the first role model to me, before I went with the girls to play ball, you know, for something to do or that looks interesting, that I want to try. Interviewer: “Well it makes for a good story and I’ll point out to you, you took longer than fifteen minutes to tell it.” I did? How long did I talk? Interviewer: “I don’t know.” A half hour, my times up—I’m usually worth a half hour. 13.23 Interviewer: “You’ve done really well, so thank you for coming and talking to us.” Thank you. 20 �21 �22 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_EGascon1135BB Title A name given to the resource Gascon, Eileen "Ginger" (Interview transcript and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gascon, Eileen "Ginger" Description An account of the resource Ginger Gascon was born in Chicago in 1931 and grew up playing softball. She played on softball teams used by the AAGPL as farm clubs while she was in highschool, then joined the Springfield Sallies for the league's barnstorming tour in 1949. She played professional softball in Chicago in 1950, then played for the Grand Rapids Chicks in 1951. She played both center field and second base. She later became an educator and was actively involved in promoting women's sports. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-08-06 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/71f5b60d70673a09dbede19ead918b42.mp4 87c7beb1afa3b92be3dc8df0bdcfcd3e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4ec3ce5a7399af1d8f98be0ee376aef1.pdf c26cbf6ecb0d4926a633784494254574 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW JOAN HOLDERNESS Women in Baseball Born: Kenosha, Wisconsin, March 17, 1933 Resides: Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project, August10, 2010, Detroit, MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion. Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, February 6, 2011 Interviewer: “What is your full name and where and when were you born?” I was born on March 17th, 1933 in Kenosha, Wisconsin. Interviewer: “And your full name?” Joan Holderness Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like?” I can recall that my dad played a lot of ball and my grandfathers both played and they used to go out to the lake when I was a little tot, so I played ball all the time. I had a bat and a ball and they had those flat gloves and I can remember doing that as a little kid. The first time I heard about the league was when my mother took me to a ball game of the Kenosha Comets with a friend of hers, and man, I just loved that. 43:11 Interviewer: “About how old were you when you saw them?” I was probably in the fifth or sixth grade. From then on I wanted to be one of them, but my mother was very strict and I didn’t go to any more ball games until I got into junior high and I use to go down and watch them practicing. We could sit in the left field free as fans, so I got to meet several of the ball players and they would play catch with or me. 44:05 In 1947 I was fourteen years old and they asked me if I wanted to be their batgirl. They didn’t have batgirls, so I got a uniform and I was a batgirl, and of course, I was with them in town I’d see them. 1 �Interviewer: “So, you were going to school and then during the summer is when you would be a batgirl?” Yes Interviewer: “Did they pay you?” No Interviewer: “But you got a uniform?” Yeah, in 1948 they started a farm system for the league and they played in Chicago and my dad agreed that he would drive me down there once a week to play. They had four teams, so I got to play. 45:14 I played shortstop and I really loved that, but we had to drive all the way to Chicago and there were no Interstates or anything, but you would get there and get into the game right away. I enjoyed that for the whole year in 1948. In 1949 they invited me to go to spring training in Indiana, so I went to spring training and I ended up getting a contract and my dad signed my contract. 46:01 Interviewer: “Because you were underage.” Oh, yeah Interviewer: “How old were you?” In 1949 I was sixteen, but my mother wouldn’t let me travel. Half of that year I couldn’t—I could go to Racine, and I think that’s the only place she would let me go, so how are you going to get on a team when you can’t go on the road, so it was tough for me to get on the team and on a position. They liked me and they were very nice with me. Anyway, in 1950 I played quite a bit. They use to put me as a pinch hitter a lot and I played right field once in a while, but they had established some players that wouldn’t give up their spots, so it was tough. 47:08 About in July of 1950 Grand Rapids needed a 2 �player in right field and I guess—Johnny Rawlings was the coach and he had watched me when I was practicing with them and I had a good arm and so they wanted me to go to Grand Rapids. Well, Grand Rapids was in town playing at Kenosha and when they were leaving Kenosha they went to Racine, so they brought me up to Racine with my mother and my mother was sitting and talking with the chaperone. Then they brought a girl down that I was going to room with and they met her mother and so my mother finally let me go. 48:11 Then I got to play all the time, but every night in right field, so I really loved playing for them. I really enjoyed playing with the Chicks. And that was a lot of nice girls. Interviewer: “What was your—now you’re living in a house or something during the season? You’re not living at home anymore right, for the Grand Rapids Chicks? Where did you live when you were playing for Grand Rapids where were you living?” We were first in a home with a family and we just had a room. We couldn’t cook there or anything. We could wash clothes, but we couldn’t cook or anything, so it was just a place we could sleep. 49:08 We had twin beds and it was a nice place, and nice people. Interviewer: “Was that your first time living away from home?” Oh yeah Interviewer: “By that time you were maybe seventeen or eighteen?” That was in 1950, so I was seventeen. We ended up getting an apartment and that was nice because we could cook and everything and it didn’t cost so much. I couldn’t go to a lot of restaurants because I wasn’t old—if they had any booze they wouldn’t let you in and they always had the best cooks. 3 �Interviewer: “How were you as a hitter?” How was I? I don’t remember striking out, but I think they got a couple places where I struck out, but I don’t remember striking out. 50:17 I wasn’t a three hundred hitter or anything, but I was good at meeting the ball. Interviewer: “How about strawberries? Did you slide into bases at all?” Not real good. Too many legs you know, but I did all right, I didn’t like sliding. Interviewer: “Did you think, at that time, that you were going to continue playing baseball as a professional? You were sixteen, seventeen, years old, were you thinking about playing?” 51:15 I played 1951, but I felt like the league was kind of busting up. Kenosha let their team travel all the time and a couple tournaments they were going to different teams and Grand Rapids was losing their fans. They just—they had other things to do then. They had gasoline and they could go where they wanted to go, but we had some nice crowds for a while, especially in Grand Rapids. Rockford was a nice place and Fort Wayne had good fans. 52:11 Interviewer: “What were your plans in terms of—were you going to go to college or did you think going into the work world or were you going to get married? What were you thinking about?” Well, I was planning on going to school, but I never did. When I went back home I had to go back into school and some teachers didn’t like that I left early to go to spring training and when I came back they wouldn’t let me make up my studies, so I had problems with them. I ended up—I didn’t graduate when I was supposed to graduate, so I was disgusted with that, so I ended up going back and getting a job with the 4 �government. 53:06 Then I didn’t want to go back to play ball anymore. It was hard to get a job with the government and I worked at Great Lakes. Interviewer: “Did you make the decision not to play anymore?” Yeah, they called me the next year, but I decided not to play. I couldn’t because I didn’t want to leave that job and my dad had signed for me to get a car, so I had to pay for the car, so I couldn’t quit the job. Interviewer: “Did you miss it?” Well yeah, I did miss it and the first couple years I really did, but after that-Interviewer: “How did you find out that the league had folded? Do you remember how you found out?” 54:07 Well, the last year I played a lot of the teams were busting down you know. They were running out of money and they were losing money and they just quit. The girls had to go to other teams and it was just traveling, traveling. Buses bothered me; I got tired of bus rides. I didn’t ride a bus for a long time, many years, I was sick of them. Interviewer: “After you quit the league, did you ever talk to people after that, years later did you ever talk about the fact that you played professional baseball?” Not really, we didn’t discuss it. No, sometimes I would see the girl that I was living with. She got married and she would have a child, every year she would have a child. 55:14 I would see her and I was bowling quite a bit and I would meet several of the girls that were ball players and were bowling, so I got to see some of them, but I really didn’t—I loved playing baseball, and I’ve been a Cubs fan all my life. I just—it was done you know. 5 �Interviewer: “Now, you’re at a reunion after many, many years, what prompted you to come to a reunion?” Oh, to see people. I went to the first one in Chicago and to see everybody again was really great and we had a lot of fun. 56:10 We got to play golf and whatever, so it was fun Interviewer: “What was your reaction to getting into the Baseball Hall of Fame?” Oh, I thought it was great that they accepted our league. At the time I was a computer worker with the government and I built a database for the league and I helped Cooperstown to get all the names up, and that was nice to find everybody. Interviewer: “Did you go to the Hall of Fame?” Oh yeah, I’ve been there two or three times. Interviewer: “Did you go there when they actually had the opening ceremony?” Yeah Interviewer: “What was that like?” 57:04 That was super and when they opened that curtain, oh, we were all excited and I took a lot of movies of that. Interviewer: “Did you see the movie, A League of Their Own?” Did I see it? Oh yeah, I’ve seen it a lot of times. Interviewer: “What did you think of that?” I thought she did a great job. There was a lot of Hollywood stuff in there, but I thought she did a wonderful job, and everybody I talk to about it today, people say they have seen that movie so many times, not the players or fans, just people. Interviewer: “I’ve seen it maybe five or six times myself.” 6 �It’s on TV quite a bit, so they really enjoy that movie. Interviewer: “Do you think the movie, the movie itself when it came out, did that get you thinking more about your time in baseball or were you already thinking about the baseball anyway?” 58:14 At the time it came out I was president of the association, so I was pretty excited for everybody and I think Penny did a wonderful job. I met her in Chicago and I met a couple of the stars, Rosie and Madonna, they were there, so I got them, but I thought Penny did a wonderful job with it. She had a couple of our girls there helping her. Interviewer: “Were you at all surprised at the big—this huge outpouring of affection for your league that didn’t really happen before that, right? Before the movie?” 59:13 They didn’t know about us, they just—of course the girls were from all around us, east and west, but the league itself played right in the Midwest. People just didn’t know about us, they just didn’t know about our league. Interviewer: “Were you surprised at this? It’s big, and you probably didn’t think it was going to be this big when you were playing ball. Were you surprised at how big it’s become?” I think I am, yeah, I think it’s wonderful, especially for kids, they just think it’s wonderful and they wish they could play. It’s surprising they are so happy. Interviewer: “Do you think that the fact that you played, that the league played, had an affect on young people, on young girls? Do you think there was an inspiration from what you did?” 7 �Perhaps, yeah and they realize that women can play in sports and I think that helped a lot of people. Tennis was wonderful for women and they just went for everything, soccer, it’s great, and a lot of ball players are out there, I just don’t see them that much. I don’t see them anymore, but I know there’s a lot of them playing ball. :55 Interviewer: “Were there any particular games or events that happened during your playing that stand out? A home run or stealing a base?” No, I didn’t make it—I had a triple once and I got to third base and I couldn’t go any farther. I told John, “I guess I wasn’t breathing when I was running across there”, but he was motioning me to go home and I couldn’t make it. That was in Fort Wayne and that was funny, but he was mad that I didn’t go. Interviewer: “How did the manager treat you?” Every manager I had was very good. Johnny Gottselig from Chicago, he was a hockey player and I never thought about him as a baseball player, but he was nice. 2:00 Interviewer: “Did the managers treat you like a woman or did they treat you like a ball player?” Both I guess, yeah. John was wonderful, John Rawlings. I’d be in the field and he’d be standing—you know when you’re warming up prior to the game, and he would hit a fly ball and then he’s hit two ground balls to right field and he’d put his bat down near the ground and that’s what he wanted, for me to throw that ball right at that bat and man, I would make him move it because I had a good arm. He thought that was funny, the way I could hit—that I could throw that ball so well, but I could do anything for that guy, he was great. I really enjoyed playing for him. 3:03 8 �Interviewer: “Some of the other girls said that they knew how to play baseball from playing on their own or playing with neighbors and things like that, but the managers taught them specific things that professionals knew. Did that, did they teach you certain things that you didn’t know before, on how to play better?” Well, I think John did if we were in the infield or whatever, he would—don’t take steps and things like that or how to be in position to flip. My dad taught me a lot about throwing from the field, my hand close to my head. I had a good arm. 4:00 Interviewer: “Were you playing the standard baseball when you played, or was it the larger baseball?” It was overhand when I played, but it wasn’t down to a nine inch, which they ended up with I guess. I think we were around ten or nine and three quarters or something. It was a good fast ball and it was—I thought it was a good game because it was fast. Interviewer: “What did you think of the uniforms?” The uniforms didn’t bother me, but you know, it was kind of wide at the bottom and I’d cut mine down a little bit. I had long legs, but I didn’t flip them out you know, but they were ok, and they never bothered me. 5:12 Interviewer: “Looking back on that period of time, how do you feel about that period of your life?” Oh, it was great, I was making about ninety dollars a week and that’s more than my dad was making. When I think about when I went to a job with the government, I wasn’t making nothing, it was terrible, but I spent over thirty years with the government and by that time I got up a little bit. It was good money for a lot of the girls. A lot of them—a lot of my friends went to school and it was great. 5:58 9 �Interviewer: “Did you help support your family when you were playing?” Yeah, not that I wanted to, I was saving money so I could go to school and they needed money for taxes, so in a couple years I lost it, so anyway-Interviewer: “How do you like the reunions?” The reunions? Oh, they’re great, but we’ve lost so many girls now. Especially the last couple of years ooh. When I was the president you know, I think I had gotten over five hundred and seventy some players in the league, but we couldn’t find about a hundred and thirty people, so I don’t know where they’re down to now. 6:57 Boy, it was tough finding them. Interviewer: “We’ve had the same problem trying to find you to be able to get an interview with you, so I understand. It’s important that we get these, and I’m glad you sat down with me. I did a wonderful interview with Beans Risinger and a couple of weeks after that she went to Oklahoma and she passed away, but I got calls from Cookie, I got calls from others saying they were so happy I got that.” 7:34 She was a wonderful gal. Interviewer: “She was a wonderful gal.” She was a good pitcher too. Interviewer: “Yeah, and tall too.” She was taller than me, that’s for sure. Interviewer: “Were there very many tall girls like you? Because you’re big.” I’m about five ten, but I Beanie was over six foot. Another girl from Duluth was about six two or three. Barbara Rotvig, she died of Cancer when she was thirty-five years old 10 �and she was like a big sister to me. 8:11 I was the oldest in my family and I have two sisters and a brother, but she was my big sister. She was a great pitcher too. Interviewer: “When you first started in the league you were very, very young and you were mentioning the chaperone. Were you carefully watched because of your age?” Oh yeah, especially when I went to Grand Rapids. If you wanted to date anybody, she had to know and when you couldn’t go to these restaurants, you ate at the huddle house or something. 9:14 Interviewer: “You can’t go where they serve alcohol, right?” Yeah, it was terrible. We didn’t—the girl I was rooming with, she was only a year older than I was, so we had to be careful what we were doing. She had a car and she was from Chicago, so we had a good time. Interviewer: “Whenever I get together with you, because I was in Milwaukee, we were in Milwaukee doing interviews too, and you hear certain stories. What’s your story? What’s the one you tell?” 9:55 I don’t really have any stories. Interviewer: “Well, you hit a triple once you said.” I can remember when I was at Kenosha, John would put me in as a pinch hitter and I would get a hit and win the game and the fans went crazy you know and that was wonderful. Two or three times that one year, so I remember those times, but it was a lot of fun for me to play because I really enjoyed baseball. My brother didn’t like to play ball. 10:51 11 �Interviewer: “You played, you said, with your father, right? Did you just play catch or batting too?” With my father, sometimes he would take me out and he would throw and if we would go to the park he could hit a ton and I couldn’t find the ball you know. Yeah, he spent a lot of time with me hitting balls. My mother was a pretty good athlete too and they didn’t have a lot of organized leagues in Kenosha when I was a kid, but they did have about four teams for the city and I ended up being a pitcher for softball and my mother was in the backyard catching for me, but I don’t remember her going to the games. 11:53 My dad would go to the ball games when we were in town, and my grandfather, my dad’s father, he would come to the ball games if I was there. It was nice, but when you’re out there you’re worried about if you’re going to throw the ball away or something in front of them and I would worry about that. You know a lot of my friends were there and it was embarrassing if you did something wrong, but I really enjoyed playing ball. 12:39 Interviewer: “Thank you very much.” Well, thank you. 12 �13 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_JHolderness0369BB Title A name given to the resource Holderness, Joan (Interview transcript and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Holderness, Joan Description An account of the resource Joan Holderness was born in Kenosha, Wisconsin, in 1933. She learned to play baseball from her father, and after the Kenosha Comets came to town, she started going to their games and became their bat girl, and was recruited to join the team as an outfielder in 1949, even though her mother would not let her travel farther than Racine for road games. The next year, she got to play full time, and was traded to Grand Rapids. She left the league after the 1950 season and took a regular job at the Great Lakes naval base in Illinois. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Baseball players--Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-08-10 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/09534ac5cad0c3de04430a392a308d4b.m4v 34e524624d277662d6dc1c5934bc2b74 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/149a9b4cd9d722443da7e47d52fdd06f.pdf de582ea70840b72f5d636aa3a16fa60b PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans’ History Project Interviewee’s Name: Katie Horstman Length of Interview: (01:08:34) Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project, September 27, 2009, Milwaukee, WI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion. Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, May 20, 2010 Interviewer: “What is your name and where and when were you born?” My name is Katherine Teresa Horstman known as Horsy or Katie and I go by the name of Katie and I was born in Minster, Ohio on April 14, 1935. Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like, before high school, in the early days?” The early days—I had five brothers, two sisters, born on a farm east of Minster, Ohio and I’ll tell you, I had a lot of cows to milk every morning and that’s how I got my wrist strength, so Jimmy Foxx said. I helped with the chores because my brothers all were in service at one time, so the three girls had to help out with the farm work, help dad. Interviewer: “So your dad was a farmer?” Oh yes. Interviewer: “A dairy farmer?” We had everything. It was a hundred acres at that time, about a hundred acres it was all small. Small town, German town, talked German, didn’t talk in English, I was brought up speaking German. 1:19. Interviewer: “So the early day before the war you had your brothers around you?” They were all older I was the second youngest. Interviewer: “Ok, so you didn’t play games with your brother—they were already older.” Except for one brother, John and he was a good ball player, but whenever I could, whenever I didn’t have chores to do or anything, drive the tractor or whatever, John and I would hit balls. We had a lot of neighbor kids and every Sunday it was known that we would take turns going to each other’s houses and play baseball, not softball because the boys didn’t want to play softball, we had to play baseball. 2:03 If you weren’t any good you sat on the sidelines, but if you were good they asked you to play. 1 �Interviewer: “So did you sit on the sidelines?” No way, no I was pretty good otherwise they wouldn’t let me play. Interviewer: “In school were there any kinds of sports for girls?” Not at all until—it was a Catholic community, 99.9 percent Catholic, and a young priest came into town and he started the CYO, which was a Catholic Youth Organization. The girls didn’t have anything and he felt sorry for us and he was a good ball player, so he started it. We had softball, so I started in the sixth grade and ended up a freshman because at fifteen years I was scouted by Fort Wayne, Indiana. 2:56 Interviewer: “We’re jumping too quickly—so he set up a softball team that was not just for boys?” No, not at all, they didn’t play softball they played baseball. Interviewer: “So there was a softball girls team that you played on in high school?’ Exactly. Interviewer: “Did you hear about out did you know about, for example, professional men’s baseball? Were their newspapers that you red or radio?” Oh my gosh, Wally Post is from around us, played for the Reds and Pete Rose was born on April 14th, same as my birthday, so that was my hero, my idol. Interviewer: “So you actually knew about baseball outside of just the people you were playing with?” 3:39 Oh yeah. Interviewer: “You followed the teams?” Radio, we always had the Reds on—big Reds fans. Interviewer: “When did you hear, I don’t mean the exact date or anything, but do you remember when it was that you heard there was a women’s team?” Well, in one of the papers, Dottie Schroeder was in the Sidney Daily News and said that Charlie Grimm would pay her fifty thousand dollars if she was a man. I cut it out and I had a little scrap book that I kept all the clippings in because we had a weekly paper, The Minster Post, and they would always put the scores in and what we did, and I pasted those in and I put Dottie’s picture right on the front and put under it, My Ambition, not knowing, I was only fourteen then when I saw this picture in the paper, and I cut it out and I always dreamt that hopefully I would meet her. 4:35 Interviewer: “So once you saw that picture, you cut it out and put it in your scrapbook. When did the actual opportunity come up?” 2 �The next year—my father passed away that year, when I was fourteen, so I was tired of milking the cows for my brother and the chickens and everything else that we had to do and I thought—I just kept praying on the dream that I gotta find. So we were playing St. Henry in Ohio in May during school time and a scout from Fort Wayne happened to be there and he told the coach from St. Henry, “Hey, I think that girl can play ball and she can play on the Fort Wayne Daisies team”, and he said, “who are the Fort Wayne Daisies? He had never heard of Fort Wayne either or girls baseball, so his daughter was a senior, so he said, “I would like to see those two try out for the Fort Wayne Daisies.” 5:45 He’s the one that took me after school was out, which was like May 23rd and we went to Fort Wayne and I started pitching and infield practice. Max Carey was the coach, hallo of famer, and he said, “Yes, you can stay”. 6:02 Interviewer: “What did your mom think about this?” Well, I came home, I had to get clothes and stuff, and I told her about it and she said, “As long as you go to church every Sunday you can go, but as soon as you don’t you’re back here”, so I never missed a Sunday in my life because I always remember my mother, she was very, very strict. Interviewer: “What was the actual process? How did you get there and once you got there what actually happened? I know you want to get into the game and all that, but for our purposes we want to know the exact details.” Okay, I was fifteen years old, I couldn’t drive, I didn’t have a car, my dad had passed away, and nobody could take me except Tony Bernard, who was from St. Henry, the coach, he took me and then I started and I had another roommate from Philadelphia and we stayed in somebody’s home, you couldn’t stay in apartments, we always stayed in private homes that wanted some ball players to stay with them. 7:16 Interviewer: “Did you sign a contract?” Oh yeah. Interviewer: “At fifteen?” At fifteen I signed a contract. Fifty dollars, the rookies got fifty dollars a week, okay this was great money since I was only making forty cents for mowing the neighbors’ lawn, an acre. I could have cared less about the money I had no idea. I think the first year, until I turned sixteen; I was paid under the table. They gave me cash because they weren’t allowed to write out a check. 7:47 Interviewer: “So, had you traveled at all any distance before you went to Fort Wayne?” 3 �Probably Dayton, Ohio was forty-five miles and that took an hour and a half in a 1936 Ford because I remember the escalator that’s all I remember. I had never been on an escalator and I was petrified to go up that escalator and I finally did and it was okay. Since we had chores, you had to be there, it was a responsibility and we didn’t know any better and loved it as long as I could play for CYO once a week that was great to me and I loved to hit. 8:29 Interviewer: “What was your first impression of Fort Wayne when you got there?” Well, when I got there it was funny because Max Carey had me pitch right away. He wanted to see my arm. Well, I had a pretty good arm and I was very accurate and I pitched and pitched for at least thirty minutes batting practice and Lefty Alvarez was picking up the balls and giving them to me and she was talking and I couldn’t understand her and I thought, “what kind of a language is she talking and what am I getting into?” She kept saying, “are you tired, are you tired, are you tired?” I thought, “gosh” and I finally turned around and asked somebody because I couldn’t understand her and they said she was saying, “are you tired”, and they said she was from Cuba. 9:16 I said, “Cuba, where’s that? I had no idea. I really paid attention to the history lessons after that. Interviewer: “Did you feel at all intimidated at that age? Here’s these girls you know who are playing professional ball.” I was more intimidated by the big city life. That just threw me you know, all these cars and all these people, I had no idea, but as far as playing ball, no, they were all very nice. Dotty Schroeder was on that team, so I was happy, Jo Weaver, the sisters, Jean Weaver and Betty, super nice because most of them came from farms like me, so I could communicate and we talked farm life mostly and baseball and that’s all I remember. 10:09 Interviewer: “ Now rookies are usually treated like rookies, so how were you treated when you first started?” Not bad at all because they knew I had an arm and knew I could hit, so we had no problems. Jo, Jeanne and I, there were four of us that were fifteen, sixteen years old and that helped. With her sisters being older and Betty was a super player, and they played two years before I did, Betty did, So she had the car and she took us all around and that’s how I got my transportation. 10:54 Interviewer: “That must have been amazing to be with some players and one of them has a car?” I know, it was unreal, well she was making a hundred and some dollars a week and cars, you could buy a band new car at the end of the season for two thousand five hundred, so she always had a brand new car and a big one you know. We were in seventh heaven and didn’t know it. 4 �Interviewer: “I know this is going back a long way, and I don’t want to jump ahead too far, but what were the first few, say days or weeks like? You didn’t start playing in a game right away did you?” No, no. Interviewer: “What were the first days kind of like?” 11:31 Just more or less getting acquainted with the girls and getting use to playing every day and a regular schedule. Interviewer: “What was the routine? I know it was different sometimes, but what was the routine?” The routine was that a four o’clock you would be at the ballpark and we would warm up and stuff and seven o’clock was game time and the crowd would come in. Fort Wayne had one of the biggest crowds in the whole league and then we would watch the game or participate for the first couple of weeks or month. I didn’t play very much, but just watched to see how everybody was playing their position. I was very versatile because I could play outfield or whatever, but I never considered myself a pitcher because I didn’t pitch underhand, I always threw overhand. 12:35 Interviewer: “At that time, when you first started, were they still pitching underhand?” No, no, in softball in the CYO, that’s the only position I never played. Just to get acquainted with the bigger city and the fans and the rules, that’s what threw me, I couldn’t believe the rules. Lipstick on every day all the time because the chaperone would remind you and I mean she was strict, Tetzlaff from Wisconsin and every time we would try to get out of it or something she would say, “Okay, either wear it or you get fined”. The fine the first time was five dollars and then ten dollars and then twenty dollars and then suspension, you were out and man, I didn’t want to go home. Although I did get homesick and I was surprised, but you get over that. 13:32 I think my room mate, Jeanne Geissinger, who was sixteen, she helped me a lot, we were both together and like I said, the Weaver sisters really helped me. Interviewer: “I’m kind of curious about this, had you worn lipstick before you had gone into the league?” No, you normally didn’t wear lipstick in our town until you were sixteen. Sixteen was like a magic number, you could wear lipstick, you could have a date, you never dated before and that was another thing because some guys would come up and ask me for a date and I said, “well I don’t know, I have to ask the chaperone”, and she said, “Only if I go along”. Go along, I thought, “wow” and I said, “No, I’ll wait until I’m sixteen”. Interviewer: “Well, who taught you how to put lipstick on?” 5 �Well, I just did it you know. It wasn’t that hard and I thought it was amazing and then we had curfew and I wasn’t use to that either because on the farm we went to these dances and we had huge dance halls and we had Guy Lombardo, the Eagles and all and that was very famous in our town, we had big dances. 14:46 So, I don’t know, I just got to learn how to put lipstick on and everything and that was it. Interviewer: “ What were some of the other things you had to do besides lipstick? Did you have to wear your hair a certain way?” It had to be a certain length. You couldn’t wear boyish hairdos. You had to be in two hours on a road trip and that was another thing, we got to travel to Rockford, Illinois and all these places, but if you got off the bus to get a coke, you had to put a skirt on. You could wear shorts and slacks on the bus, and I thought--my god, we stopped at a little town and I said, “who in the world is out here at two thirty in the morning? I don’t see anybody”, and she said, “if you want to pay the five dollars, it’s up to you”. No way. 15:41 Interviewer: “Was there, when you first started, did they kind of sit you down, you and a couple others, to kind of go through this little school—this is what you have to do, you have to have on lipstick etc.?” The chaperone did. Interviewer: “So right away from the beginning they told you?” Right away on the very first day. Interviewer: “Okay, so like you said, there were certain rules and regulations and if you didn’t you were fined.” Yes, I told you what the rules were on that. Five, ten, twenty and suspension. Interviewer: “How far did you get?” Oh no, I paid attention believe me, I wanted to play ball. I did everything they said and my mother would have been really proud of me because I would always question her. 16:31 Interviewer: “So let’s kind of put ourselves, you’re on the bench over the first couple of weeks, watching and seeing how the game is being played, what was your experience when you first got your opportunity to play?” Well, the first opportunity I remember playing outfield, right field, and I think I pitched too. I did real well in hitting and Max Carey liked the way I hit, so I played outfield and I think I pitched the very first year too and I won three games. I pitched three games and 6 �won every one of them, so that was great. The next year Jimmy Foxx came in as our manager in 1952 and he didn’t want me in the outfield. He thought I had super arms, so he put me on third base in the infield and I really liked the infield. I moved around and then he needed pitchers, so then I pitched and played third base. 17:35 I didn’t get a day’s rest like these pitchers do now, I went right to third base, if he needed me I was right there. Interviewer: “Let’s stay in the first season, you got a chance to pitch and one of the things I found from some of the interviews that I have done with the other players, is when they became a rookie there was certainly the sense that they were the rookie, but once you played and the other women saw you playing well, you no longer were the rookie. Did you ever get the feeling or sense that you were no longer the rookie?” No, I guess it didn’t bother me. Interviewer: “So you just wanted to play baseball?” Exactly, that’s all I wanted to do. I just wanted to play ball. I was a pretty good punter in football. 18:29 Interviewer: “You had played before with the Catholic Youth Group, but now you’re playing in professional baseball and I would imagine there’s a few more fans in the stands, how were the fans?” Oh yeah, but we had a lot of fans in CYO. It was a small town and that’s all you had to do in the evening, we always played at night, so people from work, this was there entertainment. We had a semi-pro baseball team, boys, but they only played on Sundays, so during the week we played and we drew a pretty big crowd. 19:00 Interviewer: “So you were used to the fans?” Well not ten thousand like the fans they had Interviewer: “Was that at all intimidating to you, the fact that there were that many people?” Not at all, I loved the fans. That’s why I liked third base because I could talk to them like Rosie O’Donnell, I was one of those with the fans and I always loved to talk to them. Interviewer: “How was that? I remember from the movie that happening, but did you actually talk to people during the game?” Not during the game, no, no, but right after or before mostly before and you would sign autographs. You never refused because you knew they paid for your work. 19:52 7 �Interviewer: “Was there a mixture in the audience or was it mostly men or women?” Amazingly and what was amazing, lots of young men and that amazed me. Same thing with these autograph sessions—that really amazes me—young man, what do you want my old autograph for? Like I said today, lots of historians are young men and they collect a lot of memorabilia. Interviewer: “What were some of the highlights that you can remember from your first season, the first time out?” First season—well, that we were in the playoffs, we were in the play offs and so I had— well, you know I was supposed to be back in school after Labor Day, that’s when school started, so I thought that was going to be a big problem, but the superintendent liked me and he said, “Oh well, women don’t ordinarily get an education anyhow, so you might as well just go and as long as you have good grades”, and that was the thought because the women over there hardly anybody went to college at that time. You’re talking about the fifties and the philosophy over there was that women get married, have kids and are in the kitchen making meals or working on the farm. 21:22 Interviewer: “But you got to play baseball.” Yes I did. Interviewer: “So the first season you did the playoffs. Did you play in the games?” Oh Yeah, and I called the superintendent and he said to go ahead and he was really nice, he understood, but I only missed like two weeks as long as I made it up, but then I came back and spring training was like the first of May and we were going to Newton, North Carolina in 1952. I approached him as soon as I found out, which was in February, and he said, “Okay, this next semester, I notice your conduct is going down and if you can get your conduct up you’re allowed to go”, so I had to button up a little. 22:21 Interviewer: “Shall we get into the conduct part of this or not?” I was a prankster and I got that from my brother. Interviewer: “So no more pranks?” No, I was an angel believe me. It was hard but--Interviewer: “So the first season when you came back from playing, what was the reaction, you say it was a small town, what was the reaction from your family, from the town, were you treated differently?” Well, in a way I was and they were very happy because after that we had spring training and the teams came through, like I said, that one night with Kenosha, Wisconsin and Fort Wayne released me to play with them and I pitched in front of my home town and we had 8 �three thousand people and our town was only two thousand five hundred, so the neighboring people came and baseball was very popular. My brother played for Minster, so we played against each other one time. 23:22 They treated me perfect and I was a star. Interviewer: “So you got past the rookie status even though you didn’t feel that way, but you got past that and now we’re going into 1952 and it’s your second season. Tell us about that, was there anything different about coming to play” Oh yeah, we heard that Jimmy Foxx was the manager, the Jimmy Foxx, he was like Babe Ruth and we thought wow, you know we’re playing under this guy? He was super nice just unbelievable, he couldn’t believe it that the girls were so good and coming from him you had to be pretty good. He was just—he was like a second dad to me, we really clicked and he brought me in from outfield and he said, “you’re going to play third base because you got that arm and that long distance”, so I had accuracy, that was the biggest thing and then he was running out of pitchers and they didn’t have savers or what they have now days, and so I would also pitch and because I had accuracy and fast ball was my main pitch. 24:58 Interviewer: “Tell us about being the pitcher, what was the strategy there? Did you have many different types of throws?” No, I didn’t have very many—I didn’t have a curve ball, knuckle ball or anything like that. All I had was a fast ball and then I found out from the other pitchers that if you slowed it down a little, different speeds, change up would throw the batters off, which I noticed some did because we had a lot of good pitchers and if they changed up, my gosh, you were way ahead waiting for that fast ball to come in and you would strike out. I tried it and it really worked for me and also my catcher was very, very intelligent, she knew all of the players and what they liked—inside ball, outside ball and since I was so accurate, because I had really worked on accuracy, I think I hit one person ever and I felt so bad I never threw another inside pitch. 26:04 That was mostly it and I think my ERA speaks for itself because I think I only lost two games the second year. Interviewer: “Was there a difference, in terms of your playing, between the first manager and then when Jimmy came in, did you feel that you played better?” I played better because Jimmy was a hitter and I loved to hit the ball. I remember one time I was up to the plate and he said, “Gosh, did you live on a farm and milk cows?” I thought, “Wow, does it show?” I was thinking about smelling the manure and all that and thought, “wow” and he said, “no, because I was on a farm and you got a wrist action like a farmer”, like milking cows because that’s where I got my wrist action. 27:00 I thought, “way to go”, and I hated to milk those cows and here it was the greatest thing I ever did. I’ll never forget that though because I looked at him and I thought, “wow”, I thought maybe I looked like a farmer, I didn’t know. 9 �Interviewer: “Did he actually show you specific things to do that maybe you had not done before, techniques and things like that?” He just told me that I was a natural, a natural hitter and my last—1954 I was only eighteen or nineteen years old and I was batting three twenty eight and that was my final batting average. 27:41 Interviewer: “52”, are there any highlights that you can think of? You mentioned having a new manager and that was a big thing, but in terms of plays, in terms of games you may have played, is there anything that sticks out from that year?” I played more, I played a lot of games, I was in every game, except when I pitched, and normally he gave me a night or two off. I also played different positions if somebody got hurt, like second base, he would put me in or first base, whatever-- because again, we heard rumors that pretty soon there wouldn’t be girls baseball, but we just thought they were rumors because Fort Wayne did real well, but South Bend, Studebaker went out, so they were no longer there and that really affected the crowds in South Bend. 28:34 Interviewer: “We’ll get back there in a minute, but I want to get back to the idea that Jimmy was having you go to different position. Was that unusual? Did all of the girls have that ability—just put them here, put them there?” A few, just a very few. Most of them just had their regular positions, like Dotty Schroeder, she would always play shortstop. I never saw her play any other position. Willy Briggs, left field, Tybee Eisen, center field—the outfielders were sort of set. Interviewer: “You were kind of, for Jimmy anyway, if he really needed somebody.” Oh yeah, he could rely on me and besides he didn’t like me on the bench. 29:20 Interviewer: “So now the second year—how were the crowds the second year? Still the same numbers?” Fort Wayne was great, the same numbers. People really—and we didn’t get harassed at all, called “tomboys” or anything like that. Those people—well, the early forerunners in the forties set the tone and we didn’t have any problems. Everybody else knew that it was still a men’s game, but we never got any kind of harassment call or you know. 29:57 Interviewer: “Now the first year and the second year, you were going on the road too, right?” Yeah Interviewer: “So, what were the road trips like?” 10 �Oh, they were excellent, we would get in the bus and everybody would try to get in the back of the bus, but they were excellent and we would start singing our songs and everything like that and South Bend wasn’t too far, but in Rockford, Illinois we would leave after the game and all night and get there maybe like four o’clock in the morning, go to the hotel and sign in at the hotel. Again, we wouldn’t play or be at the ballpark until four o’clock, so normally we took in a movie. 30:42 That was normally it and after the game we had two hours before our curfew and we would have to be in because the manager was right there and the chaperone was right there and we knew when to come in. 30:56 Interviewer: “You hadn’t traveled very much in terms of from your childhood and now you’re traveling. Did you get an opportunity to spend any time in the towns that you went to other than to see a movie or something?” Well, sometimes, but not really, but spring training, that was my first spring training and we got to go to Newton, North Carolina and I got my first train ride and I was excited. Then when I went down south they had a whole different language, you know that drawl and especially in Newton, North Carolina I remember people would---and I was playing outfield and there was one kid in the stand near right field and he said, “hey Yankee go home”, and I said, “Yankee, I’m a Reds fan”, and he said, “communist”, and I thought, “what is this?” 31:48 I had no idea, but we made it and it was nice. People treated us great, but again the food was different you know, hominy and grits, hominy and grits, oh yuck. I was use to cereal, bacon, eggs and stuff like that. They didn’t have it; they had hominy and grits everyday. I used to go across the street and get a hamburger. 32:21 Interviewer: “Where in the south did you go?” Newton, North Carolina and played around, like another team like Kenosha or another team that would train there. We would stay at a big boarding house, one team, and again we were not allowed to fraternize with another team, so even though they stayed down a block or whatever, we weren’t allowed to talk to them. After the game we never shook hands or say, “nice game”, because they thought we would throw the game or something, I don’t know what their thinking was. That was also in the men’s though and actually it still is, but the media now is so great that they have to talk back and forth. I think that’s what happened. 33:05 Interviewer: “So, after your second season, were you making fairly decent money by that time?” Oh yes, at that time I was making seventy dollars. I went up twenty dollars. Interviewer: “What were you doing with the money?” Well, I saved my money and I paid for my own—well, we didn’t have too much book money then for school and I was still in high school, but I paid for my own clothes and everything like that and the rest I just saved until I could buy a car. Interviewer: “Were you sending money home?” 11 �No, not really, I kept my own. My mom let me keep it, she said, “you’re in charge”, so I put it in the bank. Interviewer: “That’s great. Now, 1953—I know, of course we all know now that we’re getting to the end of the league although, you didn’t know it.” It just never dawned on us, we just thought it was rumor, but 1953 was a good year. Bill Ellington was my manager, and again we went down south and played ball and I was use to that and the train and that was to me like having an airplane ride. I got on the all-stars for third baseman and won the all-star game by pitching up to the thirteenth inning, I think I pitched from the ninth inning to the thirteenth and we won the game four to three. 34:49 Interviewer: “How does one get chosen for the all-star game?” They take everybody in the league and compare their averages and everything with everybody else—hitting, fielding, so I played more third base then because what threw me off on the other years was because I also pitched, so I had double duty, but I was hitting well, I hardly had any errors and they brought me on the all-star team. 35:27 Interviewer: “What was your reaction when you found out?” I was ecstatic, but I didn’t know I was going to end up pitching in the game you know. Interviewer: “Mostly you’re a third baseman.” I was chosen for third base and then he needed a pitcher because it was extra innings and he put me in because he knew I was accurate, so I went in pitching and won the game. My roommate hit the home run to win the game. 35:53 Interviewer: “Tell us about the game.” Oh, it was exciting and there’s a picture in one of the books that somebody wrote. I was just so happy, my roommate and I, we had big headlines in the paper. Interviewer: “Walk us through the game. How did it open up? How was the beginning, the first inning?” Well, we always start it with the opposing team lining up on third base and we were on first base V for victory, we always honored the veterans and the American flag, the whole ball of wax just like the regular ball games and I was playing third base and you’re asking me who we played, but it was the second team that was next to us, that’s who we had to play. All the other all-stars, Fort Wayne, we were in first place, so I played with Fort Wayne and we played against the all-stars, so our team playing against Fort Wayne as the 12 �all-stars. We beat the all-stars and like I said, we were very young. A lot of us were young and I think the oldest one was twenty-five, so anyway, it was thrilling. 37:18 Interviewer: “How did the game open? How were the first few innings? Was it a slam-dunk from the beginning? Well it was—nobody could get a hit. I think Winsch pitched and she was good, so she pitched and she was the number one pitcher and she was excellent. She had curve balls, drop balls, you name it, and she was good. Interviewer: “How did you do against her?” I think I did all right; I had two for four, so I thought that was pretty good. Interviewer: “How was the middle of the inning? Were you still going?” Oh, we were battling; it was a terrific game for the fans because they just enjoyed it. It probably was the longest game you know, we didn’t have all these gizmos like helmets to put on and knee wraps or anything like that. It bothers me and I noticed somebody said our games were two hours or two and a half hours and that game was like three hours and that was really long and like I said, we speeded it up because we didn’t have all that although, our pitching style is totally different from what they do now. 38:31 I had a full wind up going like this then throwing the ball in. Interviewer: “So when was the moment when it really determined the game was going to go your way?” Well, not until Jeanne hit the home run. I mean it was deadlocked and it looked like we were going to be there all night until Jeanne Geissinger hit the home run and we were in happyville. Interviewer: “That’s wonderful, that’s wonderful—when that was over, and the season was over and when you went home, was there a different reaction this time?” 39:10 Well, we got in the playoffs, but we never won the playoffs for some odd reason, I don’t know what it was—just tired, so actually it started the beginning of 1954 when we went to spring training we came through Ohio and some games in all of these little towns that would bring the fans, so they would look for the players and another town that was pretty good and semi-pro teams were there, so we played in my home town. My nephews came out, they were just little like four or five years old and I played against my brother. That’s when we played against the men and the men would pitch against the men and the women would pitch against the women and then we beat them. 40:11 That was terrific and like I said, there were like—there’s only like two thousand five hundred in our town and I think there was a crowd of two thousand eight hundred and that was terrific because I pitched and I won. 13 �Interviewer: “You said your cousins, were other members of your family there?” No, my nephews and my brothers were there and my family and of course all my classmates. I was pretty nervous and that’s the only time I remember being really nervous because everybody was counting on me. 40:53 Interviewer: “What about the catholic… was it the priest?” Yeah, he was there and he was praying for me. Interviewer: “That must have been a pretty proud moment for you.” Yes, very emotional and everybody talked about that game. They had flyers out, Katie Horstman and Armstrong Airport which is just five miles down the road took a plane and threw out flyers saying that we were coming into town. 41:23 Interviewer: “Do you remember after the game whether the father came up to you? Did he?” I think he came to the Wooden Shoe Inn, which is a big restaurant right in town and they treated us to a chicken dinner. They were famous for chicken dinner and he came and was very proud of me. Interviewer: “He had to be considering the fact that he started the game when you were there.” He’s still living and I still go back there and see him. He does mass every once and a while and he’s retired, but excellent. Interviewer: “Wow, wow, we should send him a copy of this.” Oh yeah, he would love it. His name is Father Shuey, ordained and handsome, everyone went out for CYO. I never even knew half the kids could play you know. I think about fifty kids came out and we couldn’t take care of fifty and we ended up with twenty. 42:18 Interviewer: “So, are there any other highlights from 1953 that you can think of?” Just that I was becoming more involved and playing more games, like everyday unless I pitched and I would get time off and my batting average kept going up, I think it was like two eighty nine, but again the ball was a little bit bigger than the regular ball. Now, coming into 1954 they couldn’t find those balls anymore and they weren’t going to make them because they didn’t know if the league was going to fold in the middle or when, so they didn’t want all these balls, so then we played with a regular baseball. Oh my god how easy, I mean girl’s hands are smaller then men and I could grip that ball, wow, and 14 �hit it. 43:14 We were hitting home runs galore, so it was the best thing that ever happened. Bill Allington became our coach and he was strict. When we went on the road, he would have thirty questions and you better read that rulebook and you better answer them right or you had laps to run. He was strict, which was very good and I believed in discipline. I had discipline from my mom and dad and of course with eight kids you have discipline. I had nuns in school although, it was a public school, Precious Blood where the father came in, and they were strict, with rulers, the ruler sisters, and when I came into baseball and saw all those rules—I was born with discipline, so I didn’t mind it. Although, you always try to see if you can beat the system, right? 44:21 Interviewer: “So, coming into 1954 was the atmosphere at all different in terms of either the moral of the teams?” No, except that we were all praying that it wouldn’t end because then they kept—like in the middle of the season they said they didn’t think it was going to continue because they couldn’t afford it and you know, different ownerships of different teams. Fort Wayne was great, For Wayne was solid, but the other teams—television came in and people would go to see the guy’s play and we also, couldn’t find girls. We had like Jr. Daisies, Blue Sox, and Jr. Blue Sox similar to a minor league team and they were anxious to come up, but we didn’t have enough of them. They only had like two teams and they would play against each other in each town. 45:21 Interviewer: “How about the fans, was there any difference? I don’t mean about being enthused or anything like that, but number?” Well, that went down because they were watching television. They had more things to do and in wartime it was very restricted like gas rationing and all of that stuff, so that was no more and they could go place and you know, more things to see. Interviewer: “I’m going to ask you a question that at the time you might not have been able to answer, but I’ll just pose it anyway. Was there anytime up until 1954 that you actually thought this would be a career you would be doing? You were a really young girl.” 46:07 Oh I know, I was just getting in my prime. No, I thought it would last forever. To me I prayed everyday that it would last forever, but after 1954, most people don’t know, but then Bill Allington got a group of us, eleven of us, twelve with him, two cars and we went all over the United States, except for the east, and we played against the men. We had a bookie out of Omaha, Matt Pascal was his name, and he would get the schedule maybe two weeks ahead of time so we would know. We would play a game, go to the next town, play another game and we had a hundred and ten games, the same as we did for the Daisies. We played every day, but we had to travel. You only had a duffle bag, that’s all you could have, your uniform and whatever. We were always in the laundry room, but like I said, we weren’t like the Silver Bullets, like Phil Niekro did, they played against the men. 47:13 At that time that never would have worked because nobody would come to the game and we didn’t want to say that, “hey, we’re stronger and better than you”, the men, although a lot of times we were except when we played the triple A 15 �teams, the semi-pro teams, they were good, but we had their pitcher and catcher and they would pitch against them and we would pitch against the girls, so we won most of our ball games. Every four o’clock we would advertise, beside the posters that we had, that map. We would go in the fire truck and run around town in the fire truck telling people that the game was at seven o’clock they would announce it. It was thrilling and I saw the whole United States except for the east. 47:55 That was wonderful to me because I loved traveling. Interviewer: “This is after 1954 though?” This is after 1954—55,56,57 we did that for three years. Interviewer: “Let’s go back to 1954 though, when did you find out and how did you find out that it was over?” Well, I think it was after the play offs and then they said, “count on not being here next year. I think that we may not have teams”, and we all knew that was the end 48:34. Interviewer: “What was the reaction?” The reaction was very, very sad, we counted on it, especially the very young ones, and we were just getting into our prime. I thought, “my god, what are we going to do? We got to work”. That was our biggest reaction, what are we going to do? Here I just got out of high school and I thought, “wow, not I got to look for a job”, so that was most of us, we were very, very upset. 49:09 Interviewer: “How was your last year though playing?” My last year, my god, I batted three twenty eight, I think, and pitched and won I don’t know how many games, but it was excellent because I loved that little baseball you know. The size changed to a regular baseball and it was tremendous you know. You just could hit it harder, throw it harder, everything, I just enjoyed it. When I was a kid playing with my brothers that’s the ball we used and I was use to it, so it came back and I was very happy about it. 49:49 Interviewer: “Any highlights that you can think of from 1954? What really sticks out to you that may have been the big ones?” Well, just my hitting, I hit a lot of home runs and I was a long ball hitter because I didn’t like sliding in the short skirts. I did that once at second base and oh my god that hurt. I always made sure I get a single, a double, a triple or a home run. I wanted to make sure I would get to that base without sliding. Interviewer: “You say you went through three years of playing with this kind of team that was kind of put together after the end.” Yeah, Bill Allington and we had spring training—like we went to Arlington, Texas, that’s where we had our first spring training and we played amongst ourselves first to warm up 16 �and then we played all the teams coming through Texas, Oklahoma and New Mexico you know, he had them all booked for us. 50:55 Interviewer: “This is still professional ball though and you’re still getting paid?” Oh yeah, we changed our name to All American that was it, All American Girls Professional Baseball rather than saying Fort Wayne Daisies or something like that, but we had the same uniforms. Interviewer: “What did you end up doing after you—did you continue to play baseball after three years or what?” Well, I was in Fort Wayne, Indiana and I didn’t want to go back to school because it was so much fun it sort of spoiled me from going to get my education or further my education you know, so three of us rookies went to the cookie factory in Fort Wayne, Archway I think it was called, and anyway two days was like an eternity and I couldn’t take it anymore watching the cookies and besides I would have gotten thrown out because we started throwing cookies you know, we were bad and we didn’t like that kind of work. I went right to IUPU extension and signed up—I’m going back to school, so I started college at IU Purdue. 52:03 Ernie, I can’t think of his last name now, Ernie Burns or Ernie anyway, he was the general manager for the Daisies and he was also the general manager for the Fort Wayne Comets hockey team, and so I needed a part time job while I was going to school ,so he signed me up that I could work in the office with the tickets and I got to meet all the players and stuff and went to the coliseum. It was great and I had a good part time job and went to school, to college. I did that for two years and then—gosh I don’t know what I did afterwards, after school, anyway, I was twenty-five years of age. 53:00 When I was twenty-five years of age I went to medical records--oh, I worked at Burnham City Hospital and stayed with Dotty Schroeder’s parents and I went part time to Illinois State University then and came back and worked at Burnham City Hospital for a year in admissions because I was always interested in medicine and everything and I was sort of in pre-med. Then the medical record librarian came to me and she said, “you can make a lot more money being in medical records”, so I talked with her and sort of worked with her on weekends and everything. 53:38 I went to St. Elizabeth’s Hospital in Danville, Illinois and spent a whole year with the Franciscan Sisters of Sacred Heart from Mokena, Illinois and she was our instructor and only ten people could enter the school and you had to have two years of college and then a year of practice at the hospital to become a Registered Medical Records Librarian. 54:09 They were making good money, like a hundred dollars a week, and at that time it was super money, so I was all for that, but then I got to know the sisters and I thought they were super, and then I got a calling to go to the convent, so two days after I graduated from there I entered the Franciscan Sisters of the Sacred Heart in Mokena, Illinois. I went to the convent, was a nun five years, it was really a nursing order except for some elementary schools, so the reverend mother decided to have a Sacred Heart Academy, a high school and she didn’t want any lay people and she understood that I played baseball and she asked me if I wanted to be a phys-ed teacher, well she didn’t ask me you just did it—some more discipline for me. 55:04 So I went to DePaul, Loyola and Illinois—I 17 �don’t know, it was another university there because I needed drivers ed and DePaul didn’t have driver ed, so I went to that other college and got my driver ed and went to DePaul and graduated from there in 1965. I taught at the academy because I had two years of college I could do that in that private school and I taught in a private academy and the girls were super. 55:44 Interviewer: “Did the girls know? Did you let them know?” Well, later on they found out—DePaul grads you know, my picture was in the Sun Times with my habit playing soccer, so I made headlines. I also got in a lot of trouble with those state students because I would—one day I drove the reverend mother into town and I could drive because I was I was older. Most nuns who were becoming nuns were under twenty-five, like eighteen, nineteen, twenty and she knew I could drive since I was teaching drivers ed anyhow. I had to drop her off downtown and I went up town to Fullerton Avenue to DePaul University and the state student saw that I had a car, a big Cadillac, you know people give stuff to the religious, so eleven o’clock came around and they said, “hey Sister John Anthony, (that was my name) hey, let’s go to the baseball game today the Cubs are playing”, and I said, “Cubs, yeah, but who are they playing?” And they said, “The Reds, the Cincinnati Reds”. Because I was always talking about Reds, Johnny Bench, Pete Rose and I said, “I can’t go, I don’t have any money and I don’t think I’m allowed to go and I don’t think the reverend mother would like it”. 57:09 “We’ll never tell, you don’t need money and we’ll pay your way in”, and I thought, “ oh gosh, should I or shouldn’t I? Well, what can it hurt, kids want to go”, so guys and gals, we all piled in the car, I think I had ten of them and the Cubs ball park wasn’t too far from Fullerton Avenue, so I wouldn’t use much gas, so we come up there, the parking is horrendous, so I went right up there and he said, “hey lady what are you trying to do?” And I said, “I want to know where I can park?” he saw my habit and he said, “oh, sister the vice president isn’t here today, so you can park right here. Wow, the co-eds, “way to go Sister John Anthony”, and I was a hero. 57:57 He said, “do you have tickets?” I said, “tickets, I don’t even have any money”, and he said, “well he wasn’t going to be there, so we could have his box seats”, so here I was, I was a hero. I mean I felt so good. The Cubs were beating the Reds you know, so the ninth inning, the Reds and I was going “way to go Cincinnati”, and I’d get all excited. I didn’t think anything about it—came down, went and took them back to school ok, picked up reverend mother. The Archbishop came into town, new Archbishop, so she had to meet him or something, so we went back to Mokena and during vespers, it was just after six o’clock we would pray the vespers, and all at once I get this tap on the shoulder and it’s the reverend mother. We went out in the hall and she said, “Where were you this afternoon?” I said, “why? You know I was at DePaul University I had things to do, study, went to my classes and everything. 59:04 She said, “then how come I saw you on television cheering for the Reds?” I never thought about it and I said, “mother, we’re not allowed to watch television”, and she said, “the Archbishop was in town and I met with him and she was on television. They interrupted the program saying that one of your nuns was cheering the ball game”. Well, she didn’t like that too well and that was only one incident, so anyway in 1965 left the convent before my final vows. Then I worked at the medical records library in Dyer, Indiana and then taught in Gary, Indiana the next following and 18 �spent my summers and a year at Miami University in Ohio because I got my masters degree and if you taught there your education was free at the college. :08 I took a big deduction coming from Indiana to Ohio, but it all worked out the same. I got my masters then I worked five years teaching phys-ed and science at Kendallville Jr. High in Kendallville, Indiana. Then I came back to my home town, that’s when title nine was trying to come out, 1972 to 1975, so I became the phys-ed teacher there and actually jr. high school and high school that’s all I would have, but I said, “why do you want to start a program in jr. high? Why don’t you start it?” Illinois has a super phys-ed program, they still do, they have phys-ed every day from the first grade to the twelfth, but these other states don’t have that, once a week or whatever, and Minster, my home town, didn’t even have a phys-ed program for the elementary. They only had jr. high and freshman and sophomore and I said, “What do you want to do that for? Start with the little kids”, so I did, I had the whole nine classes per day; I really loaded myself up, but stayed there a long time. 1:23 So then the teams started coming out where we could play state tournaments and that’s what I wanted, I wanted to be a coach, I had a great desire. So we had track the very first thing in Ohio and that was in 1975, so we had a track team and came in runner up in the state. The kids didn’t know anything about running. They had no idea what a discus or a shot put looked like because we didn’t have boys track either, until we started the girls track program. Then we were very successful, 1976 through 1980 we were the state champs in our division, three divisions in track, and then 1982, 1985 and 1989, so we got eight state track titles and they talked me into cross country. The first year, 1982, the girls, state champions, so I was very successful in that. 2:23 The town loved me and I loved them, that’s why I go back there all the time. Interviewer: “You stayed in sports, of course you stayed in education, stayed in sports, when did you start to realize that other people were recognizing what you had done when you were just a teenager in your early days with the All American Girls. Was there a time when you started to realize that people were knowing about that?” You mean as far as playing baseball? Interviewer: Yes Well, it was sort of dead because we all went our own way, we communicated, and I communicated with the Weaver sisters and Dotty Schroeder and some of the others. We always wrote Christmas cards, that was one thing we always did. To our teammates, but eventually that falls apart too, so until they started the reunion and I think that was in 1982, it was forty years after we quit, well, yeah forty years I think. 3:40 We met in Chicago for reunion, everybody was sort of hesitant, like in the movie, should I go or shouldn’t I, I probably won’t recognize anybody, but everybody remembered the voices or the walk or whatever and it was hilarious you know. “Is that really you?” Because everybody changed so much and got so much older. The people that were twenty were in their sixties—grey hair, white hair and thank God we had name tags. Once we got use to it all these memories flowed back, but that was one heck of a nice thing to do. 4:27 19 �Interviewer: “You look back on that period of time as just part of the evolution, I imagine, of your becoming the person that you are now. That was just one part of it right? When did you realize that other people were looking at that period as something very unusual and very special? Am I making myself clear?” Oh yeah, first of all there wasn’t professional baseball for women—ended, it’s the only time in history that was an organization where you got paid and professional. Jo Weaver was a super runner, but she couldn’t enter the Olympics because the Olympics at that time was amateur, so she couldn’t go to Olympics and she could have made it easily. We had to understand that from that period until about 1970, girls athletics were taboo except for CYO, anything voluntary, GAA, Girls Athletic Association, that’s all that kids had. 5:35 When I came back to Minster I thought, “wow, these kids don’t have anything, at least I got something playing baseball and I got an education and I was taught in Illinois where the phys-ed system is super”. I never played soccer or field hockey or anything like that, so I came back there and I wanted to give something back to my town where they appreciated me and so I started the whole program. 6:04 Interviewer: “Looking back on that period, and you have a lot of things to smile about, do you think that particular period had an affect on you and the person you are today? You were a teen and a young girl at that time. Was there anything that happened then that you can look back on and say, “That helped me get here?” What I did then, I wanted my girls in Minster to feel the same way that I did, that they had an opportunity, they got a chance, “ok girls let’s go out”. It wasn’t easy , now you’re talking about Germans, and the boys were still on one side of the room and girls were on the other side. Phys-ed was still segregated; girls only, boys only and boys had a hard time with it. 7:03 We didn’t as much and I was very fortunate to have some super athletes that didn’t even know it because they never had a chance. I know how they felt because I thought I was going to be stuck on the farm. I thought, “whoa, we gotta do something”, and if we do something great people and if you have discipline—I put rules out, no drinking, no this or you’re suspended, I didn’t even give them one chance. I said, “this is it, if you want this we’re going to have to do it right and get on top immediately”, so that’s what we did. 7:37 Like I said, “My athletes do it now because they’re continuing my tradition over there because we twenty-three titles in that town and one title for boys”. We showed them. Interviewer: “Thank you so much, it was wonderful and you were wonderful.” I don’t know, but I did get in five halls of fames with Annie Oakley, who was one of my idols, The Ohio Women’s Hall of Fame with Doris Day and I was real happy about that and of course and the National Track Coach Hall of Fame and the Ohio Track Hall of Fame and in the Western Buckeye League. 20 �21 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_KHorstman Title A name given to the resource Horstman, Katie (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Horstman Katie Description An account of the resource Katie Horstman was born on April 14, 1935 in Minster, Ohio. Before joining the All American Girls Professional Baseball League she played baseball with her brother John. She started playing softball with the Catholic Youth Organization (CYI). At 15, Horstman started her professional career when Max Carey signed her to play for the Fort Wayne Daisies. In her first season of 1951 she played for the Kenosha Comets and the Fort Wayne Daisies as a pitcher and outfielder. Under Coach Jimmy Foxx in 1952, During her second season, in 1952 she played under Jimmy Foxx who switched her to play as a utility infielder. In 1953, she played for the Fort Wayne Daisies and the All Star Team as a third baseman and pitched part of an all-star game. Her biggest highlight was finishing her final season with a batting average of three twenty eight just as the All American Girls Professional League was ending. Afterwards, Horstman went on to become a Physical Education teacher. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Indiana Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-09-26 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives