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Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Vietnam War
Ron Oakes
Length of interview: 01:52:08:00
Pre-Enlistment (0:00:20:00)
Born in Grand Rapids, MI on March 21, 1949; grew up in Grand Rapids and graduated from
Grandville High School in 1966 (0:00:20:00)
Father worked for Sears and Roebuck for over 30 years (0:00:33:00)
5 kids in the family, 3 girls and 2 boys (0:00:45:00)
After high school, he went to Grand Rapids Junior College for a year and at that time,
Vietnam was going on and all his friends going off to war, either through the draft or
enlisting, he was the last one left (0:00:57:00)
In June, 1967, he went to Detroit for what he thought was a physical and as it turned out, he
raised his right hand and was on a plane going to San Diego for boot camp; thought he was
going home that night and instead he was going West (0:01:12:00)
He enlisted and was not drafted because he felt it was the right thing to do (0:01:35:00)
o He is a volunteer person and when Vietnam was there, he would not wait (0:01:42:00)
o He had a high draft number because of college but college was not working out and he
could not keep his mind on his studies and he enlisted in June (0:01:48:00)
o Rough on his parents because at the time, his father was only 38 or 39 at the time and
when Oakes turned 38 or 39 and his son turned 18, he knew how his father felt at the
time when Oakes took off (0:02:00:00)
When he enlisted, he knew Vietnam was in Indochina and we where fighting the communists
who were trying to take over the country and we where helping a smaller country, much like
South Korea (0:02:23:00)
In the back of his mind he knew it would be dangerous, but being 18, he did not view it as
such (0:02:53:00)
Enlistment / Training (0:03:15:00)
Basic training was in San Diego, California at the Marine Corps recruit depot, where he went
through boot camp and then he went up to Camp Pendleton for the rest of his training
(0:03:15:00)
Went out to California on a commercial airline from Detroit to Chicago and the aircraft was
late getting into Chicago, so they held the next flight waiting for the 12 men going to San
Diego, although the other people on the plane were understanding because they did not get
upset (0:03:38:00)
o In Detroit they gave them airline tickets and picked someone to be in charge and make
sure everyone got on the plane (0:04:03:00)
o Recruit depot had a bus at the airport to pick everyone up and the Marines knew who
was coming and they checked everyone’s name off a list; from that point on, they
belonged to Uncle Sam and they did not go anywhere without a check list
(0:04:15:00)
�
At that point in time, the arrival was different from today; there was a lot of screaming and
hollering, such as “you're in the Marine Corps, you're not at home anymore, and you belong
to me” (0:04:29:00)
In boot camp, they went through a lot of training, such as how to use a rifle and how to
maneuver, and a lot of physical training, as well as classes on how to put on battle dressings
and sanitation and hygiene (0:04:50:00)
The drill instructors were Vietnam veterans that already had a tour or two in Vietnam and
returned and went to DI school and at that time, the drill instructors could be abusive and
harsh depending on what their attitude was (0:05:23:00)
o Oakes grew up saying “yes sir” or “no sir” to anyone older than him, and this made it
so he had no problem with authority while going through boot camp but some of the
people he was training with could not get the grasp of “yes sir” / “no sir” and they paid
the price for it (0:05:50:00)
If someone was overweight, the DIs placed them in a separate platoon to lose weight and they
had one instance when they were training, the fat platoon came by and one straggler collapsed
(0:06:23:00)
o They put him against a tree and being the middle of summer in southern California, it
was hot and he was suffering from heat stroke but they did not call medical attention
for the man and instead went on their 4 mile march and when they returned, he was
dead (0:06:40:00)
o Oakes's unit left and when they came back, all they saw was some people carrying a
body away (0:07:06:00)
In boot camp, they learned hand-to-hand combat using pogo sticks (0:07:16:00)
o Two guys would start and when one was knocked down, another would step in and the
man at the end had the best chance to be number one (0:07:25:00)
o Pogo sticks were long sticks with padded ends used for fighting and training for using
a rifle with a bayonet (0:07:44:00)
The original training was basic because they received more input from the instructors in the
Infantry Training Regiment at Camp Pendleton (0:08:24:00)
o Received their heavier training there, such as rifle qualification (0:08:38:00)
o Had staging battalion where they put the soldiers through a mock-up Vietnam village
which showed them how the bobby-traps were developed and what to look for and
what not to do (0:08:47:00)
o What they normally did, the American way of doing things, they changed, because
they enemy learned to use them against the American soldiers (0:09:12:00)
If there was an opening in the forest, that was where they would go because it
was easiest and the Americans did not want to take a machete and hack a new
path (0:09:24:00)
However, most of the time the opening was bobby-trapped and if you wanted
to get through a tree-line safe, you cut a new path and made sure it was away
from the opening (0:09:30:00)
Boot camp was 8 weeks and about 8 weeks in infantry training and after about 16 weeks, they
were allowed to go home on leave (0:09:54:00)
o Went home on leave in October and at that time, they went home in their Class-A
uniforms because the anti-Vietnam sentiment was not strong yet in 1967 (0:10:03:00)
o Being the first time he had ever been away from home, he was glad to get back and he
went around and visited family, slept in and ate a lot of good food (0:10:44:00)
�
The food in the mess hall was not bad and they could eat all they wanted and
while in boot camp, Oakes had to serve the officers and the DIs their meals
which caused him to miss out on the really dirty jobs in the mess hall
(0:10:59:00)
o Already knew where he was going because his orders already told him that he was
returning to Camp Pendleton to a staging battalion (0:11:38:00)
In boot camp he trained on the M1 and qualified on the M14 and in the staging
battalion, they trained on the M16 (0:11:46:00)
o On his last Saturday at home before returning, a buddy from junior college asked
Oakes if he would go on a blind date; Oakes agreed and went on the date, a canoe trip
in the Pine River with a woman named Cathy and they got along well, he took her
home that night and the next morning, at 7 o’clock, he was on a plane for Chicago
then on the Camp Pendleton (0:12:02:00)
Normally the staging battalion lasted 2 or 3 weeks but they had only been there for a week
before a list of people came out (0:13:02:00)
o Every morning they would fall out for formation and roll call and one morning, they
said that the following Marines step out and stand aside (0:13:13:00)
o Oakes was one of the six or eight chosen; they dismissed everyone else and told them
to get on the trucks for training and they then told the small group to get their gear
because they were returning to the main part of Camp Pendleton (0:13:24:00)
o Told that their named had been pulled and they were going to language school to train
to be interpreters, which got them out of training (0:13:39:00)
Went back and spent two, almost three weeks waiting for the Marines to get enough people in
because they need 150 men with the right test scores and when they had enough, they bused
the men up to Monterey, California (0:13:54:00)
o On the way to Monterey, some motorcyclists saw that it was military people and they
began gesturing and messing with the bus drivers but they eventually made a mistake
and getting in front of the lead bus, they slowed down too much and the bus driver
floored it and the last thing Oakes remembers was seeing the 3 motorcycles going into
the sand and the riders going flying, to which all the men on the buses cheered
(0:14:37:00)
Was not really great on language (0:15:39:00)
o At that point in time, they had cassette records with 8 inch tapes that they would listen
to and their instructors were 18 year old Vietnamese girls who trained in the
traditional clothing and who could speak enough English and naturally, very fluent in
Vietnamese (0:15:41:00)
o They went through the 12 weeks, had a good time in school, and everyone graduated
because at that point in the war, everyone passed (0:16:06:00)
o They were told by the Marines that the more they used the language in country with
the dialect, the better they would get and the Marines were right (0:16:18:00)
o While they were at the school, they were adopted by a Chinese family in Salinas,
California, who had four of the soldiers over for Thanksgiving (0:16:31:00)
A lot of families in the area were adopting military people for the holidays and
one weekend, the family took the 4 soldiers to San Francisco, where they went
to a very fancy restaurant and the soldiers played the roles of “guards”, with
two in the front in their Class-A uniforms and two in the back, also in their
Class-As (0:16:56:00)
o Language school lasted until early 1968 (0:17:45:00)
�Deployment (0:17:51:00)
Flew from Travis Air Force Base, north of San Francisco, to Okinawa, where they were for
four of 5 days getting shots (0:17:51:00)
o The only gear they were carrying was their clothes and the gear they would normally
be issued; they were not issued any combat gear or rifles (0:18:08:00)
o The time in Okinawa was getting their paperwork and shots done and because they
had to work on typewriters, the process took a long time and whereas nowadays, a
person will normally receive their orders with only their name on it, then, they might
put 200 names on an order because they would only type it once and then make copies
for everyone else and they always carried multiple copies of their orders because they
did not know when they would need to show someone their orders (0:18:17:00)
One day, the Marines took the men out to a Continental airlines jet, which was contracted at
the time, and flew them on a short flight to Da Nang and when they landed in Da Nang, as
soon as they opened the door there was a stairway down and they hurried the men off the
plane because Da Nang airfield was always getting hit with mortars or rockets (0:18:55:00)
When they were off the plane, they were taken to transit barracks, two story, wooden barracks
which were not air conditioned and only had screen windows, where they spent a day or so
there while the commanders decided where they would go as replacements; Okinawa was just
processing and the Marines did not know where they would send him until he was actually on
the ground (0:20:47:00)
Every morning, they had a formation in the rear-area to make a head count and keep track of
people (0:21:17:00)
o One morning in formation, they began calling names off, Oakes was one, and they told
them to get their gear and be in formation at another spot in 30 minutes (0:21:26:00)
They got on a truck and started heading south on Highway 1 (0:21:41:00)
o Around 20 minutes passed and they arrived at their new position at Camp Dong Song
Two, a Vietnamese village that was replaced by the Marine camp along Highway 1,
just south of a bridge south of Da Nang (0:21:45:00)
o The compound was the rear-area for the 27th Marine Regiment, as well as the 1st
Battalion of the regiment, with Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, and Delta companies
(0:22:02:00)
Once the soldiers were off the truck, the commanders divided them up amongst the companies
and some of the guys were the same guys Oakes had gone to language school with
(0:22:15:00)
The base was rudimentary (0:22:40:00)
o Some of the buildings were a 2x4 frame with canvas sides and others were a frame
with screen windows and wooden flaps that would come down at night and all had
corrugated roofs (0:22:48:00)
These were the offices, mess hall, barber shop, and med center (0:22:58:00)
o Living quarters were GP medium tents and they had bunkers, wire, and claymores on
the perimeter and 50 meters behind that was the living area (0:23:05:00)
o There was also a berm which made it harder for the enemy to shoot at the tents
(0:23:24:00)
o If they incoming fire, they had bunkers that they could jump in, most of which were
made out of sandbags and some had corrugated metal or railroad ties (0:23:34:00)
Assigned to 3rd Platoon, Bravo Company, 1st Battalion, 27th Marines (0:23:54:00)
�
Was there as a regular rifleman that knew Vietnamese, but at that point, they were short of
radio operators (0:24:03:00)
The 27th Marines had just gotten to Vietnam themselves just a couple of weeks before and
they were short handed, which was why a lot of replacements were going to them
(0:24:16:00)
o They were on a float out of Hawaii and the President diverted them to Da Nang and
they were understrength, so they were building back up because they did not have the
critical MOS jobs: the radio operators, squad leaders, or machine gunners and as
replacements are coming in, they were filling in the positions to get up to full strength
(0:24:23:00)
o They never got to full strength; they were always around half (0:24:44:00)
The morning after he arrived, the platoon Lieutenant came out with the platoon sergeant and
asked who did not know how to operate a radio and four guys, including Oakes, raised their
hands, which was a mistake that Oakes learned, because they were now radio operators, even
through Oakes had never even seen a military radio before (0:24:54:00)
o They put them through on the job training; telling him to report to a corporal and he
would show them how to use a radio and they had a little class that showed them the
radio, how it worked, how to operate it, what to do and what a radio report was, all for
about an hour (0:25:20:00)
The next day, they were out on patrol and Oakes had eight or nine other guys out there and he
was the only one with communication and the others were in trouble because he did not how
to operate the radio (0:25:37:00)
o However, it only took him a couple of days to learn how to use the radio because his
and the other guys' lives depended on it and every chance he got, any question he had,
he asked somebody about how to use the radio properly (0:25:55:00)
Was a squad radio operator for two or three weeks and they would have two patrols a day, one
in the morning and one at night (0:26:03:00)
They were in what was termed “the rocket belt”, the area where the Viet Cong and the NVA
would shoot 120 mm rockets at Da Nang (0:26:23:00)
o All they needed was a mound of dirt to lay the rockets on a shoot it; they did not aim
it, they just pointed it at the airfield and hoped that it hit something and it was mostly
HI (Harassment and Interdiction) fire to keep the people awake (0:26:32:00)
The Marines’ job was the patrol and at night, they would go out just before dark and set-up a
position with a perimeter and would rotate as guys ate their C-rations (0:26:46:00)
o After dark, they would move from the position because the enemy saw they dig in and
the Marines had to keep it in the back of their mind that they were always being
watched, especially around Da Nang because of its civilian population (0:27:02:00)
o They would move around 100 meters and set up an ambush site because if the enemy
knew where the Marines were in the day, then they would be coming at night and the
Marines would set up on a likely trail down which they would come so instead of the
enemy ambushing the Marines, the Marines would ambush the enemy (0:27:24:00)
o Some nights they did not set up ambushes and they would just have a two to three
hour patrol in the dark (0:27:39:00)
They always had check points to report back to the company commanders and
the radio operator had a map, knew right where everyone was going and in his
log, he would report where everyone was and then everyone knew where the
patrol was (0:27:47:00)
�
o Did it day and night mainly to keep their presence in the area and to keep the enemy
off guard (0:28:02:00)
o At night, they would go down set paths but they never went down the same route two
nights in a row (0:28:10:00)
o On a map, it was divided into 1000 meter quadrants and they tried to have a patrol in
every quadrant, every day, so they could be on one side of the base patrolling at night
and be on the opposite side the next day (0:28:23:00)
o Occasionally, they would have movement and the point man would alert everyone
else, who promptly “hit the ground” (0:28:41:00)
o During the first couple of weeks, he does not recall much in the way of contact; other
units had contact but Oakes’ patrols did not and it was not unusually to have
something going on every night (0:28:52:00)
Was with the squad for a couple of weeks and was then promoted to platoon operator because
their original platoon radio operator had tipped a bobby-trap and was medevaced out and
Oakes was the next in line (0:29:20:00)
o When they had a platoon operation, then he would go wherever the platoon leader
went, whether it was to inspect a patrol base or the lines and he stayed with his
original platoon leader until the Lieutenant tripped a booby trap (0:29:37:00)
o Oakes became the platoon radio operator at the end of March (0:30:11:00)
In the first part of April, they moved up to Hue to take over some territory formerly held by
the 3rd Marines and they were still doing a lot of clean up from the battle of Hue during the
Tet Offensive (0:30:21:00)
o There were still a lot of North Vietnamese in the area and they did not care about
getting into firefights with Marines (0:30:34:00)
o Over the years, they had built a lot of heavy bunkers and a lot of fortifications in the
villages and the fortifications could not be seen from the air because the vegetation
quickly overgrew it (0:30:46:00)
They were in Da Nang for a couple of weeks and the first week of April, they were moved by
truck convoy to the Huế area, to a position south of Huế by about 6000 meters (0:30:58:00)
o They were still along Highway 1 and Oakes’ platoon was assigned the job of guarding
a bridge and part of the oil line that went from Phu Bai to Hue and their main patrol
base was across Highway 1 about 500 meters (0:31:16:00)
The base was built on one big mound of dirt, almost 100 meters tall, from
which they could see a long way and everyone knew that they were there
(0:31:36:00)
While they were at Huế, they did a lot of “no-name” operations when a couple of companies
in line would push the enemy towards another company, essentially catching them in a net
(0:32:04:00)
During one of the operations in the 2nd week of April, around the 13th, Oakes’ platoon was
detached to stay behind and protect the company area and the other two platoons went with
Bravo and Charlie companies to sweep through a Vietnamese village (0:32:30:00)
o The units swept through the village and got ambushed and Oakes was on radio watch
at the bridge and he could hear the ambush over the circuit (0:32:52:00)
o They had 26 killed and 46 wounded on that operation alone (0:33:24:00)
o Was in more combat in his seven months with the 27th Marine Regiment than in the
rest of his tour with the 4th Marines (0:33:29:00)
�o They could hear the fighting on the radio, as wells as screaming and hollering and they
could vaguely hear gunfire because, although the ambush was a ways away, it was
flat, so the sound echoed (0:33:41:00)
o Reinforcements eventually arrived and they managed to pull the Marines back during
the night but Oakes’ company was totally decimated (0:34:20:00)
They left 3 or 4 bodies on the battlefield because they could not get to them at
night and the next morning, they went to retrieve the bodies, which had been
stripped, mutilated, and had their equipment taken by the Viet Cong
(0:34:30:00)
o In the days following the battle, they took a third of Oakes’ platoon and put it into the
other companies and pulled the rest of Oakes’ company out of the area and into a safer
area to regroup (0:34:49:00)
They transferred people in from other companies to beef up Oakes’ company
because they were half the strength that they should have been before the battle
and after, they were even worse (0:35:02:00)
o That was the worst time because being in the hooch and hearing the battle and not
being able to help their friends was hard (0:35:17:00)
Close Calls (0:35:36:00)
There were few times when he got into dangerous situations while with the 27th Marines, such
as having his radio antenna shot off twice (0:35:36:00)
o One instance, they were on a patrol, it was raining and they started taking sniper fire
and there were only eight men in the patrol (0:35:50:00)
They hit the ground behind some logs and when Oakes went to use the radio,
he could not; the Viet Cong had a captured radio on the same frequency and
they kept flicking the microphone and when Oakes heard that, he knew that
they had been compromised (0:35:59:00)
He went to go to the secondary frequency and he heard the same thing; the
NVA were effectively jamming the radio signals (0:36:15:00)
The 8 men were in a circle, in the rain, taking sniper fire and they sat there for
two hours and because the NVA did not know the Marines’ true strength was,
they did not rush them (0:36:21:00)
After about 2 hours, the sniper fire stopped and they retraced their steps and
got out of the position (0:36:34:00)
o That was the first time that Oakes was a little leery of how long he was going to be in
Vietnam (0:36:42:00)
o Another time, he stepped on a booby-trap 105 round that did not go off and Oakes was
very fortunate because it would have taken out four of the Marines (0:36:50:00)
They were on a patrol in the 327 area because the Marines had moved them
back to a desert / sandy area near the coast and they were keeping fifteen to
twenty feet apart (0:36:58:00)
Oakes was always behind the Lieutenant, either to his right or his left,
so that he could get the radio to the Lieutenant as quickly as possible of
they got attacked (0:37:18:00)
They were walking and the Lieutenant must have just missed stepping on the
bobby-trap (0:37:35:00)
They never walked on the paths because that was where the Viet Cong placed
the punji sticks and trip wires (0:37:43:00)
�
Oakes was on one side and the Lieutenant was on the other and Oakes’ side
was where the hole was and Oakes stepped on the trap, a C-Ration sleeve, a
105 round, and a board with a nail in it, and if he pushed down in the cone, the
round would have exploded (0:37:54:00)
He stepped on the edge and pushed the round away and as he felt himself
going into the hole, he instinctively fell to his left because he had the radio on
his back and as soon as he fell, he crawled away as fast as he could in case the
trap had a delayed fuse (0:38:25:00)
Oakes made a noise and Lieutenant, seeing what was happening, dived as well
and soon everyone else on the patrol was diving for the ground (0:38:52:00)
The Lieutenant and Oakes crawl back to the hole and seeing what was in the
hole, move away because they feared a Viet Cong would be waiting nearby
with a detonator but as it turned out, nobody was around (0:39:07:00)
Oakes took a couple of pictures of the trap with a camera that he carried and an
engineer with the patrol had some C4 with him and he put C4 around the cone
(0:39:32:00)
Nearby was a trench that a bulldozer had dug because whenever they had
finished a firefight, a small bulldozer was helicoptered in to dig a trench for the
Viet Cong bodies (0:39:56:00)
There was nothing in the trench and after setting up a perimeter with soldiers
look in every direction, they yelled fire in the hole to alert everyone to what
would be happening (0:40:15:00)
While they were in the trench, someone suggested that it would be
funny if the Viet Cong had rigged the trench to explode when the
booby-trap did (0:40:34:00)
Everyone got out of the trench and after lying flat on the ground, the
Lieutenant had the engineer explode the booby trap and luckily, the trench did
not explode as well (0:40:56:00)
o Booby-trapping the hole would have been something that the Viet Cong did because
they knew the patterns of the American soldiers (0:41:06:00)
Americans always took the easiest way and this got a lot of people killed in
Vietnam because either they were not think or they were thinking Stateside, i.e.
the easy way (0:41:27:00)
o Had a B-40 rocket impact a wall near him (0:41:50:00)
During Operation Allenbrook, they had a unit in the middle of the rice paddies
with a perimeter and some amtraks and the unit got hit during the night and
Oakes unit was about 500 meters away in a hamlet (0:41:57:00)
A Viet Cong fired a B-40 at an amtrak and the rocket went over the top of the
Am-Trac (0:42:19:00)
Oakes’ unit was watching fighting because the commanders feared that the
Americans in the rice paddy would mistake them for the enemy and shoot at
them and they watched as the rocket came towards them and impacted on a
wall behind them (0:42:23:00)
o Within twenty-four hours after the rocket incident, after the battle in the rice paddy,
Oakes’ unit received intelligence from a village that about fifty NVA were moving
south and since they had not been in a battle, it was their job to sweep the battlefield
and move south and attempt to capture the fifty NVA (0:42:42:00)
�
About Ninety minutes after they started, they were two klicks south and they
had contact with an aerial observer who tells that he sees the NVA moving in
the open and he says that he is calling in some fixed wing aircraft (0:43:05:00)
They were watching at the edge of rice paddy dike and Oakes is listening to the
observer, who gives him the coordinates of the NVA, which Oakes showed to
his Lieutenant, who told him that those are the unit’s coordinates (0:43:26:00)
The unit turned and watched as a pair of A-4 Skyhawks came around and
towards them and the Lieutenant yelled for everyone to get down and the first
A-4’s bombs impact in the woodlands beyond the dike and the men can hear
the shrapnel sailing over their heads (0:43:51:00)
As the second A-4 came around, Oakes was yelling into the radio and
everyone else was popping their smoke grenades (0:44:25:00)
The pilot must have got the word because he did not drop the bombs and he
began wiggling his wings (0:44:46:00)
The flyboys would protect the infantry and the infantry would do
anything to protect them (0:45:25:00)
On Go Noi Island, his platoon was in a company perimeter for the night during another “noname operation” an at about 1 o’clock in the morning, he got a radio call from one of the
squads saying that they saw campfires to the north (0:46:02:00)
o The Lieutenant and Oakes went out the perimeter and got into a foxhole with one of
the soldiers and sure enough, about 1000 meters out, they could see the campfires and
it was obviously not Americans (0:46:31:00)
o Right off the bat, the Marines know it is a ruse because the NVA knew where the
Marines were and they would not build campfires; the NVA were just trying to get
someone’s attention to see what was going on (0:46:43:00)
o First, the Marines alerted the other units at the south end of the perimeter to keep their
eyes open because there was something going on and it might have been heading their
way (0:46:56:00)
o Meanwhile, the Marines called in “Puff the Magic Dragon”, who saturated the
campfires and if anyone was building the campfires, they did not survive (0:47:05:00)
“Puff” could put down one round every square foot and could cover the area of
a football field in four seconds (0:47:12:00)
At that point, “Puff the Magic Dragon” was a C-47 converted with Miniguns in
it that would fly at a bank and in such a way that all the firepower was
concentrated in one position (0:47:21:00)
They could see a red line from “Puff” to the ground, this was from tracers, but
in between every tracer were four other bullets and from a distance, all they
heard was a “whirring” noise (0:47:41:00)
o “Puff” fired for about 10 minutes and there was no chance that anyone was alive down
by the campfires, if there was anyone to begin with (0:48:01:00)
o Believes that the NVA knew what the Marines would do, so they lit the fires and got
the “heck out of Dodge” and they knew that the Marines would retaliate with artillery,
aircraft, or something (0:48:10:00)
o The whole perimeter was then on alert and nobody was sleeping and around three
o’clock, they received a call from the squad on the south end; they had movement in
from of them (0:48:25:00)
They figured that something would happen somewhere and here came the
movement (0:48:39:00)
�
o The squad on the perimeter kept watching as the movement got closer and they started
seeing crawling bodies in the moonlight and at three o’clock, someone blew a whistle
or a horn and the enemy all stood up and charged (0:48:48:00)
o The Marine M60 gunners were ready for them and all the Vietnamese had homemade
grenades wrapped around their waists, so as soon as the first Vietnamese stood up, the
machine gunner hit him in the belly and exploded the grenade and started a chain
reaction and they later learned that the first Vietnamese was blown in half
(0:49:02:00)
o As Vietnamese were attacking, Oakes was sitting in a bomb crater holding two radios
because the other radio operator went with the Lieutenant to the line and leaves were
falling around him from the bullets flying over him (0:49:45:00)
Had one radio in each hand talking to both the company and the battalion to let
them know what was going on and he was trying to be as calm as he can while
ducking into his flak jacket (0:50:03:00)
Looking back, it was slightly comical how he was able to be so calm in the
middle of the fight (0:50:24:00)
o While the fighting was happening, the battalion was preparing a reaction force to
come at first light, 5:00-5:30 in the morning and the firefight continued for the rest of
the night (0:50:50:00)
o The NVA never got into the perimeter and apart from a few scratches on some guys,
Oakes’ platoon came out of the fight okay and the next day, they counted 24 dead
NVA (0:51:05:00)
o The tragic part about the fight was near the tail-end of the fight, they called in their
own 81 mm mortars and the first round dropped inside the Marine’s perimeter
(0:51:25:00)
The unit’s corpsmen had been moving around the whole night and when they
returned to their position, the mortar round struck the tree above them and
blew both their heads off (0:51:37:00)
Oakes knew them and he collected their bodies (0:52:04:00)
Does not think that they ever got use to what they saw; they buried it, which is why there are a
lot of soldiers are with problems, and they did not have time to think about it, only time to
react (0:52:28:00)
Go Noi Island / Operation Allenbrook (0:52:52:00)
During Go Noi Island, they were at another base / patrol area with a perimeter, it was raining
heavily and 81 mm mortars were shooting illumination rounds out because there was
movement outside the perimeter (0:52:52:00)
o Oakes was on radio watch with the platoon sergeant and they had dug a small hole for
2 people that had begun filling up with water and all of the sudden, a mortar misfired
and the round went straight through the poncho covering the hole and landed between
Oakes and the sergeant and although it threw mud into the ears of the sergeant,
causing him to be medivaced out, it did not detonate (0:53:07:00)
o When the round landed, both men said a few quick words and they got out of the hole,
leaving everything behind, even the radios (0:54:01:00)
Go Noi Island was south of Da Nang during Operation Allenbrook (0:54:24:00)
o All companies from all battalions in the 27th Marine Regiment eventually rotated in
and out of the island (0:54:34:00)
�
o Was an NVA staging area for attacks on Da Nang, with the 36th and 38th NVA
Regiments there, hardcore regulars not apt to run away like the Viet Cong; they would
stand and fight, which cost the Marines a lot of battles (0:54:38:00)
o The NVA would wait until the Marines were right on top of them and then ambush
them (0:54:57:00)
They knew that the Marines could not call in air strikes and were reluctant to
call in supporting fire and they would envelop the Marines and come around
the sides (0:55:03:00)
During Operation Allenbrook, the company radio operator was wounded and Oakes was
chosen to replace him (0:55:19:00)
o The next day, the man that Oakes chose to be his replacement in the platoon went out
on a platoon patrol and they were not gone more that 30 minutes before they heard an
explosion; the replacement had tripped a booby-trap (0:55:32:00)
The trap exploded behind him and the radio absorbed most of the shrapnel, but
the back of soldier’s legs and arms were torn up and the trap also took out the
platoon Lieutenant and the corpsman (0:56:04:00)
Operation Allenbrook was an effort to eradicate the NVA from Go Noi Island, what
intelligence called a “second Tet” (0:56:53:00)
o The Marines rotated units in and out if the area, with the 3rd Marines going first,
followed by the 27th Marine Regiment, who at one point, had all the battalions in the
regiment in the area because the fighting was so heavy (0:57:26:00)
o There was fighting almost every day (0:57:47:00)
o The “island” name was kind of bogus; it was in the rice paddies south of Da Nang and
a river went around one side and canals went around the other (0:58:01:00)
o There was easy access to the island and NVA troops had been on the island for a while
because during the Marines’ search and destroy mission, they found hospitals, R&R
centers, barracks, mess halls, caches of rice and weapons (0:58:32:00)
o Eventually, the Marines finally sent in engineers with bulldozers to flatten the island
because all the villages on the island were fortified with a fort underneath and the huts
on top (0:58:54:00)
“No name” operations were hammer and sickle operations when two companies would sweep
in different parts of the island that intelligence said had a large force of movement of NVA or
Viet Cong in an area (1:00:36:00)
o They would move a company in behind the NVA, either with helicopter or marching
at night and the other two companies would march and sweep (1:00:55:00)
o On Go Noi Island, just about every sweep was successful; they had contact on all of
them and everyday on Go Noi Island they heard gunfire; somebody on the island was
fighting somebody (1:01:11:00)
o Has pictures of his unit in a tree line watching as F-4 Phantoms dropped napalm in
assistance of another unit (1:01:22:00)
They did not know who the other unit was because they were on their own
radio frequencies (1:01:33:00)
o The only frequency he had was with battalion and he could hear the other companies
calling in and asking for assistance (1:01:35:00)
He could also hear the platoons talking to the company and the squads talking
to the platoon (1:01:47:00)
They had good coordination although occasionally, in the heat of battle, there would be
misidentification of units (1:02:21:00)
�
o More than once, friendly fire would take someone out, whether it be an aircraft, as
what almost happened to Oakes at the rice paddy, or 81 mm mortars (1:02:34:00)
o More than once, they heard “cease-fire, friendly fire; your firing on friendly troops”; it
did not happen all the time but it was not unusually to hear about it (1:02:44:00)
o When they put in a call for support, the response from the air depended on who was on
station; most of the time it was not hard to get because it seemed like the air was full
of aircraft (1:03:21:00)
The only problem was that artillery could not fire if aircraft were in the area
(1:03:32:00)
o Any operation they had, they were covered by artillery (1:03:44:00)
They could be within 20 miles and still cover the Marines (1:03:48:00)
They were attacking a tree line one time in Huế and they were taking fire from
a pagoda and they called in artillery, which was the first time Oakes had seen
their artillery firing (1:03:54:00)
The artillery was firing air burst rounds and some of the rounds were
detonating behind the Marines, instead of in front of them (1:04:08:00)
Any time they had artillery firing over them, the Marines got flat on the ground
(1:04:16:00)
Artillery had several different rounds (1:04:23:00)
Air burst rounds looked like fireworks with a puff and the shrapnel was
away (1:04:25:00)
Rounds that detonated 3 feet off the ground and acted like daisy cutters
(1:04:31:00)
Hard rounds that just dug a hole in the ground and exploded
(1:04:38:00)
They were never denied fire, although sometimes, it was really quick and
sometimes it took a bit because the artillery might have been supporting
another mission and they were never told that the artillery was out of ammo
(1:04:51:00)
At Da Nang and Go Noi Island, the camaraderie was always there (1:05:17:00)
o Did not matter if it was Marines or Navy flying the aircraft, there was always
something up there, whether it be jets or helicopters (1:05:19:00)
o If helicopters were making supply runs and the Marines called in for medivacs, the
supply helicopters came in (1:05:37:00)
o One time during Allenbrook, they called in for a medevac and the helicopter that came
in had the highest ranking Marine Corps general in the theater on it (1:05:58:00)
o If there was a medevac, everything stops and they got the wounded soldiers out
(1:06:21:00)
Believes this was why the casualty rate was a lot lower than World War II,
because they did have good medevac capabilities (1:06:24:00)
When he was on a hospital ship, he would see medevacs come in every hour
with Every kind of helicopter, from the old Korean era to Hueys to Chinooks
to C-46s (1:06:31:00)
o Depended on whether the medevac call was routine, priority or emergency
(1:07:03:00)
Routine was when they got a chance, stop; such as the platoon sergeant with
the mud in his ears who was not critical and in danger of death (1:07:08:00)
�
Priority was when the soldier was not in danger of dying then but their was a
possibility i.e. getting shot in the leg (1:07:22:00)
Emergency was when the soldier was in dire straits i.e. sucking chest wound
and if they did not get the soldier out immediately, he was gone (1:07:37:00)
o The fact that the helicopters were always there gave the Marines a sense of safety and
it took the edge off of being alone cause they knew that they always had someone to
help them (1:07:58:00)
o When he first got to the squad, he was in a foxhole one night and the platoon sergeant
came up and Oakes asked when they would be getting more people in the foxholes
(1:08:10:00)
The sergeant said to just remember that for every 1 Marine, there were 16
others in the supply chain to supply them with everything that they needed and
Oakes said that all he needed was about 3 of them in the foxhole with him
(1:08:27:00)
4th Marine Regiment / Khe Sanh (1:09:01:00)
On September 12, 1968 the 1st Battalion of the 27th Marine Regiment folded their flag and
went home as part of President Johnson’s de-escalation (1:09:01:00)
o Everybody that still had a long time to go on their tour in Vietnam transferred to the 1st
Marine Division at Quảng Trị (1:09:13:00)
o Everyone on their second tour and the short timers went home with the 1st Battalion
but only twenty men from the battalion went home with the flag (1:09:25:00)
However, as they stopped in Hawaii and Okinawa, the Marines added more
people to the battalion so that when the battalion was on parade in San Diego,
hardly anyone was originally from 27th Marine Regiment (1:09:42:00)
o On the 12th, they flew to Quảng Trị, specifically Dong Ha Air Force base and they
were trucked into Quảng Trị (1:10:01:00)
Quảng Trị was the rear-area for the 4th Marine Regiment and Oakes was
assigned to Bravo Company, 1st Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment, where he
stayed for the remainder of his tour (1:10:14:00)
In Da Nang, it was a lot of rice paddies, villages, and interactions with villagers; in Quảng Trị,
it was the North and any villages in the jungle had been evacuated and the area was a free-fire
zone (1:10:34:00)
o If they saw somebody, no matter who they were, the soldiers shot them and all the
villagers knew that the areas were free-fire (1:10:49:00)
After they landed, they spent the first couple of days getting acclimated and being assigned to
units and Oakes had to take a convoy up to his unit at LZ Stud, Vandergrift Combat Base, on
Highway 9 and he happened to get into a truck carrying artillery rounds (1:11:18:00)
o LZ Stud was the jump-off point for the relief mission to Khe Sanh to break the siege
(1:11:54:00)
o The trip to LZ Stud was through the mountains and on dirt roads and every so often,
they would see a squad protecting a bulldozer that was repairing a hole in the road
(1:12:08:00)
When they got to LZ Stud at twilight, the unit Oakes was assigned to was a mile further down
Highway 9, right where Highway 9 made a direct turn to the west and at the turn was a
platoon base camp with wire surrounding it and a heavy communications bunker (1:12:46:00)
�
o Right away, Oakes was assigned to the radio section because radio operators were
high priority targets and they were short and he ended up working with the platoon
radio operator (1:13:45:00)
o They never got hit in the camp because there were no NVA units in the area
(1:14:06:00)
o The second night Oakes was in the camp, he was on radio watch and a Marine came
into the bunker with a loaded weapon, intending to kill everyone in the bunker
(1:14:16:00)
Oakes was in his bunk while the Marine raved about how he was not going to
do it any more, that he was not going back out and that they could not make
him (1:14:35:00)
Oakes fell off his bunk and crawled out the door with the man next to him and
they went around and got the platoon sergeant who was checking the perimeter
and brought the sergeant to the door behind the crazy Marine to jump him
(1:14:49:00)
They eventually disarmed the man and sent him to the rear and when Oakes
went to the rear in February, the man was still there (1:15:06:00)
How the man survived Oakes does not know because there was more than one
fragging incident with men who put other men in jeopardy in the field
(1:15:38:00)
The platoon eventually got pulled back to LZ Stud with the rest of the company and a few
days later, they were out on a combat mission south of Khe Sanh, doing a search operation
looking for ammo dumps, mass graves, or current troop locations (1:15:52:00)
o Did tours like this for the rest of his time in Vietnam (1:16:31:00)
o The first time the Marines hit they did not have any contact (1:16:42:00)
o They were helicoptered into a cleared hilltop and after setting a perimeter and
receiving more troops, they would single file through the jungle on a certain path
(1:16:53:00)
o One day, the 60 mm mortars were lobbing rounds down the hill in case someone was
forming and they hit at an enemy ammo dump; they sent a patrol after the explosions
ended and they found a hut with 60 mm mortar rounds lined up on shelves and they
had hit it (1:17:0:00)
Eventually, they were pulled off those operations and back to LZ Stud for a couple of days
(1:18:14:00)
o There were three fire bases in the area: (1:18:24:00)
o LZ Russell, which they closed (1:18:26:00)
o LZ Gurkha, which was as far north and west as they could go in South Vietnam
(1:18:28:00)
From LZ Gurkha, they could look to the west at night and see the NVA troops
moving down the Ho Chi Minh trail in Laos, however, they could not attack
them, even though they were supplies and troops going south to the enemy
(1:18:39:00)
This did not sit well with the Marines and one time, they decided to run an
ambush to the west, so in the early morning, they went out past the claymores
and as it was, to a knoll that they though was hay but turned out to be elephant
grass (1:19:01:00)
When the Marines were walking through the grass, they could not be
more than 10 feet apart or they would lose contact (1:19:32:00)
�
Going along a trail in the grass, one of the other Marines alerted,
“beware of hole”, a three foot diameter hole that they could not see the
bottom of and that they surmised was an undetonated bomb dropped
from a B-52 (1:19:45:00)
Someone suggested that they drop a grenade down the hole in case it
was an enemy hole but when Oakes suggested that he could not out run
the explosion if it was a 2000 lb bomb, the man changed his mind
(1:20:11:00)
They always tried to make levity of the dangerous times just to break the ice (1:20:30:00)
While he was with the 4th Marines doing the searching, resupply was hard and they were
going days without getting resupplied and they eventually ran out of water and halizone
tablets (1:20:44:00)
o If they came across a fast running mountain stream, they could drink it because it was
pure; Oakes came across a stream that he thought was moving fast enough to be pure
and he filled his canteen and a few weeks later, he had dysentery (1:20:59:00)
o After doing their searches, they put the Marines into a firebase rotation; they would be
at one base for a while then move to another (1:21:37:00)
o They were in the later part of October / beginning of November and Oakes remembers
having “bloody shits”; he could not eat or drink anything because it would go straight
through him and he lost a lot of weight (1:21:57:00)
o Oakes knew something was wrong and the only thing that the corpsman could suggest
was taking his malaria pills along with his salt pills (1:22:21:00)
o Went for a month to 6 weeks and it ended before Thanksgiving (1:22:32:00)
Mid-November, Oakes received orders to report to the rear because he has been chosen to be
the mail orderly and Oakes was glad because the job got him out of the bush and the rain
(1:22:49:00)
o He went to the rear and while waiting for the supply helicopter, he told the men that he
will get them their mail (1:23:02:00)
o After spending the night in a tent, Oakes reported to sick call because he was still not
feeling well and when he walked in, there were twelve people already there, so he got
in line (1:23:15:00)
After being examined, the corpsman handed Oakes a form, told him to sit on a
bench and told Oakes that he had dysentery and that he was going to a hospital
ship (1:23:28:00)
o Oakes did not know the Americans even had hospital ships (1:23:48:00)
The ships would rotate with one up near Hue taking casualties for three days
and then returning to Da Nang for fuel while the other took its place
(1:23:58:00)
o The next helicopter that came in, they put Oakes and a couple of other men on it and it
took them out to the U.S.S. Repose, where they checked Oakes in, took his clothes,
made him take a bath, gave him a hospital gown to wear and made him go to sleep
(1:24:13:00)
o For the first 3 days, he was fed in bed and he did not get out of bed, but eventually, he
became ambulatory so that he could help feed the other guys in the ward (1:24:51:00)
o Spent 4 weeks on the hospital ship, including Thanksgiving, and he saw an Australian
USO show (1:25:11:00)
o While he was on the hospital ship, his platoon was pulled out of the bush and was put
on the U.S.S. New Jersey with 3 days liberty and they were on the New Jersey waving
�
at Oakes on the Repose and he was waving back, although he did not know it was
them at the time (1:25:24:00)
Was on the hospital ship for thirty days, was left out in Da Nang and eventually returned to
Quảng Trị where the regimental rear-area was, but before going back to his unit, the regiment
was in the middle of an operation and they were grabbing everyone that could fire a weapon
and putting them into an ad hoc group (1:26:09:00)
o They were going to circle a village that they had reports of deserters in a village with
Viet Cong and NVA and in the middle of a rainstorm during the night, they got off
their trucks some led the soldiers around the village, which had a perimeter at least a
mile long (1:26:44:00)
o When daylight came, they had tanks plus the soldiers, who had dug holes when they
first arrived and improved them during the daylight and they stayed for three days
(1:27:21:00)
o It was neat watching the tanks fire, which had Starlight scopes on the tank, meaning
that they could fire at night and one night, Oakes, who had gotten to know the tankers,
was called over to a tank and they showed him the Starlight screen (1:27:41:00)
On the screen, Oakes could see a log about a mile out from which behind
enemy heads would pop up and telling Oakes to continue watching the screen,
the tankers maneuvered the turret and fired, destroying the log (1:28:04:00)
When the operation was over, the Marines were sent back to the rear and Oakes rejoined his
unit, where he served as platoon operator again (1:28:45:00)
o Rejoined his unit on Firebase Gurkha, where they went on the patrol in Laos and from
Firebase Gurkha, they returned to LZ Stud for rest, recuperation, and resupply then
went to LZ Neville, which, while at the north end of the Khe Sanh valley, was further
east and just south of the DMZ by maybe three or four klicks (1:28:59:00)
o Spent the rest of his time at LZ Neville, his last 3 weeks in the field in March
(1:29:26:00)
o Whereas LZ Gurkha was on a grass knoll and on the slope to the east was a trail that
went down to water, LZ Neville was on a mountain that was all rock that came up like
a shoe where one side was really steep and the other was sloped (1:29:44:00)
They built a command bunker when they got there, although it was only empty
ammo boxes, steel rails, ponchos and rope and whenever a resupply helicopter
came in, the bunker blew over because the firebase itself was so small
(1:30:21:00)
If they did not come in right, the pallet of C-Rations would go down the
cliffside (1:30:55:00)
o At night, they would drop grenades to deter anyone from crawling up the side of the
cliff (1:31:16:00)
o They thought that they had activity one night, but they never got hit and only after
Oakes left did the LZ end up getting hit (1:31:42:00)
o On the sloped part, they put out listening posts out at night, much like every night he
was in Vietnam and one night, they heard noises and threw some hand grenades
(1:31:47:00)
The next night, about a dozen rock apes came up and started throwing rocks at
the men in the post, who could not fire back, lest they give up their position
(1:32:15:00)
o They did a run a patrol into a ravine and up a hill, and halfway up, the point man
signaled; they had run into an NVA bunker complex (1:32:45:00)
�
The complex was older and no one was there but they had walked passed and
did not notice it, thus indicating how well they were concealed; they reported
the complex, turned around, and returned to base (1:33:11:00)
Around March 1st, he got pulled off of LZ Neville because he was a short-timer with thirty
days left and the Marines took him out of combat and placed him in the rear and he spent his
last thirty days as the NCO in charge of transit (1:33:31:00)
o Every other night he had perimeter guard duty and during the day, if someone new
came in, a replacement, Oakes took them to supply to get their weapon, flak jacket and
everything to get them ready to go and when they time came, he took them down to
operations so that the replacement could get on the next resupply helicopter
(1:33:44:00)
o One night when Oakes was not on guard they got hit by 82 mm mortars (1:34:35:00)
Oakes heard the first round thump and explode and he then stuck his head out
the bunker flap and the next round landed in front of an Army bunker in front
of Oakes’ bunker (1:34:51:00)
Oakes went looking for some new soldiers at the other end of his bunker and
he could not find them and he eventually finds them huddled in another bunker
shaking (1:36:04:00)
o Another time, when Oakes was on guard duty, they kept hearing movement in front of
them, so one night they reported it and the next night, they had an Army “Duster”, a
tracked vehicle with four 40 mm cannons, clear all the trees off of the bank
(1:36:38:00)
o Another night, they heard more noise and Oakes told the M79 soldier to fire a couple
of rounds onto the bank, as well as their machine gunner and when they do, someone
on the radio demanded to know what the firing was (1:37:29:00)
Oakes told him that they heard noise, fired and he asked what the man was
going to do about it (1:37:49:00)
Oakes was short, so he did not care (1:37:54:00)
o As a parting joke, on his last night on perimeter, he took out an eight man patrol with
him on point and they just went around the perimeter and returned in thirty minutes
(1:38:02:00)
The Marines flew him and a couple of others down by C-130 to Da Nang and in Da Nang,
Oakes met up with some of the men he had come in with (1:38:22:00)
o They figured out what happened to the other guys they came over with and they spent
2 days in Da Nang waiting for transport out (1:38:42:00)
o Went back through Okinawa for more shots and from there, some of the men went to
El Toro Naval Air Station in Los Angeles (1:38:57:00)
o Because Oakes was a short-timer, if he had gone home on thirty days leave and come
back, he would have only had two weeks left; instead, if someone had less than two
months less, they just discharged him (1:39:09:00)
Once Oakes got on the radio, he used his language training once; the rest of the time was used
learning how to use the radio and how to call in reports, air strikes, and artillery strikes and
they did have an interpreter with them and they used him most of the time (1:39:36:00)
He had a lot of contact with the civilian population in Da Nang but when they were in the Khe
Sanh area, they did not see any civilians (1:40:05:00)
o In Da Nang, the relations depended in the area; on Go Noi Island, they could sense the
hostility (1:40:17:00)
�
o In Hue, it was totally different; when they were guarding the bridge, Oakes went to
check on the guards and when one took a break, Oakes took his place (1:40:25:00)
Oakes heard screaming and hollering coming from the village and a lady
walked up on the roadway and came running towards the bridge carrying a
baby, that was blue and ice cold (1:40:46:00)
The baby was dead, it had fallen into a bomb crater filled with water and
drowned, and this was Oakes’ first encounter with death and although he felt
bad, there was nothing he could do except explain in his broken Vietnamese
that there was nothing he could do (1:41:12:00)
o There were times when they would sweep through a village and everyone would be
waving and when they turned around, the Marines would trip all the bobby-traps
(1:42:00:00)
o They never went through a village where they did not find booby traps (1:42:23:00)
o When they surrounded the village looking for the deserters, the children would come
out the perimeter looking for candy, although looking back, Oakes realizes that they
were just scoping out the location of the soldiers (1:42:35:00)
Whenever they had an operation with the Vietnamese Army, they never found anything, and
if the ARVNs suddenly disappeared, the Marines knew that they were going to be in combat
(1:43:12:00)
o Oakes met some good officers in the ARVN but for the most part, their commanders
were bad (1:43:41:00)
o Worked with ARVN mostly around Da Nang and Hue (1:44:03:00)
At the time that Oakes was in Vietnam, the morale of the units was high, partly because they
were isolated from news about back in the United States, with no newspaper and radio and
they had to rely on people coming in, although they did occasionally receive Stars and Stripes
and there they read about the riots (1:44:31:00)
o For the most part, the morale of the troops in the field was good, apart from
complaining about the lack of food or water, the muddy conditions (1:45:03:00)
o As far as fighting in the war, there was very little, if any, anti-war sentiments
(1:45:14:00)
He got more worn down with the 4th Marines because it was always wet and subdued and they
were always walking and climbing (1:45:32:00)
o In Da Nang, it was not as intense, although they were under fire all the time and in the
DMZ, they were fighting mother nature more and picking up the remnants of the battle
of Khe Sanh (1:45:53:00)
Going Home (1:46:35:00)
Landed at El Toro Naval Air Station and got discharged out of there and he went with 5 other
guys that he went with through Chicago, where they split (1:46:35:00)
o The bus driver recommended that they take off their uniforms and travel in civilian
clothes because of the strong anti-military sentiment (1:46:52:00)
Got home and his whole family was waiting with a big sign on the house (1:47:16:00)
o He was in Vietnam and in combat one day and a couple of days later, he was at home,
so there was not a lot of transition time; the family could be sitting talking about less
important things and he could still be think about Vietnam and the patrol and the
firefight from the night before (1:47:24:00)
o Was lucky because he came home to a stable family (1:47:53:00)
�
o His father was a deacon with the Baptist church and being in the Marines had changed
Oakes’ vocabulary, so he had to watch himself and he was very cautious about what
he said (1:47:58:00)
Getting back to normal took a while (1:48:26:00)
o During a church softball game, a friend who had only been back from Vietnam a few
weeks was on first base and Oakes was on third and a car backfired in the parking lot;
instinctively, both men hit the ground while everyone else laughed (1:48:30:00)
Got back to dating girls (1:49:03:00)
o One time, he asked one girl out whom he had dated before leaving, but her father,
meeting him at the door, said that he did not trust Oakes anymore because they had
heard the stories about returning soldiers and how they treated girls (1:49:05:00)
While he was in Vietnam, he would have to write to someone about everything that was
happening and he would write to the girl he went on the blind date with before leaving for
deployment (1:49:37:00)
o Never wrote anything to his parents because they would worry (1:49:43:00)
o Eventually met up with her when he got home and they dated off and on and
eventually, they were at his parent’s house with another couple and they were going
for pizza when Oakes asked if she wanted to get married (1:50:05:00)
o She thought he meant go for pizza and he said “no”, and she said, “yeah okay” and
they got married eighteen months after he returned from Vietnam and they have three
children and five grandchildren (1:50:41:00)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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OakesR
Title
A name given to the resource
Oakes, Ronald (Interview outline and video, 1 of 2), 2010
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Oakes, Ronald
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Description
An account of the resource
Ron Oakes was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in March 1949. After briefly attending junior college, he enlisted in June 1967 and received training at the Marine Corps Recruit Depot and Camp Pendleton, California. He then received instruction in the Vietnamese language before being sent to Vietnam. Once he arrived, he was trained as a radio operator and assigned to a squad in the 27th Marine Regiment in the Da Nang area, soon becoming his platoon's radio operator, and saw extensive combat experience. When the 27th was rotated home, he was reassigned to 4th Marines at Quang Tri, and operated between Quang Tri and Hue before being sent inland toward Khe Sanh. While in this area, he contracted dysentery and was sent to a hospital ship where he spent a month aboard a hospital ship before being returned to his unit. When his tour was over, re was sent home and discharged in 1969.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-06-15
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Marine Corps
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c8b4ee45089ee0fd932ce8039f7c4eda.pdf
d3622a115befe57327166e75abb82d90
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Gregg Larabel
Interview Length: (1:23:32)
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chloe Dingens
Interviewer: We're talking today with Greg Larabel of Grand Rapids, Michigan and the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History
Project. Okay Gregg begin with some background on yourself and to begin with where and
when were you born?
I was born in Grand Rapids, St. Mary’s November 2nd, 1944.
Interviewer: Okay now did you grow up in Grand Rapids or did you move around?
Yes, I grew up, went to St. Francis Grade School, Catholic Central High School and- and then
into the Air Force.
(1:04)
Interviewer: Okay and what was your family doing for a living when you were a kid?
My- my dad was the yardmaster of C&O Railroad and my mom worked various part-time jobs,
but she was mostly a stay-at-home, raising six kids.
Interviewer: Okay and had your dad been in the service or was he a little older or?
Yeah, he was in World War II, Army Air Corps. Never went overseas but was stationed in
Pennsylvania, Indiantown Gap and it was a war- prisoner of war camp.
Interviewer: Okay and did he ever talk about any of the experiences there?
No but he did write a journal and he's got, I have a journal of his that he wrote for one year when
he went in and while he was at Indiantown Gap so it was pretty interesting.
Interviewer: Okay alright so basically when you, after you graduated high school you
joined the Air Force?
�Yes sir.
(2:06)
Interviewer: Okay and what led to that decision?
Well my dad was a- a amateur radio operator and fixed radios and TVs for everybody in the
neighborhood and everybody in his circle of friends and I always was interested in- in electronics
so I thought I would go into the Air Force and- and learn electronics, and fortunately… you
never know what you're gonna do when you go in the Air Force but I scored high in- in
electronic aptitude and I was put into autopilot systems.
Interviewer: Okay so when do you actually join the Air Force?
October of, October 10th, 1962.
Interviewer: Okay and once you sign up now what happens to you?
Then I go to Detroit and take my physical and from there we go to Lackland Air Force Base.
(3:06)
Interviewer: Okay now was the physical a fairly serious one or a fairly cursory one?
No, seemed cursory there was a lot of guys that rejected for flat feet, asthma, and so on, but it
was kind of a routine. I was in pretty good shape from running cross-country.
Interviewer: Okay because it- it was probably a different atmosphere in 1962 than it would
have been in ‘66 or ‘68 with Vietnam going on.
Right.
Interviewer: At this point people who were there probably most of them wanted to be
there.
Right, that's correct it was pretty much volunteer.
�Interviewer: Yeah alright so where is Lackland?
Lackland is in San Antonio, Texas.
Interviewer: Okay and how did they get you down there?
We went by train, let's see what did we go by? Train and went, yeah, all the way.
(4:02)
Interviewer: And what do you remember about that train?
My- my first train ride.
Interviewer: Okay.
My dad worked for the C&O Railroad for years and years and I had never been on a train other
than on an engine looking at it, but I’d never been on a train ride and…
Interviewer: Okay.
So, it was my first experience.
Interviewer: Okay how long did it take to get down there?
A couple days at least, I don't remember a whole lot about it, but it took a couple days.
Interviewer: Okay so you get down to Lackland and then what happens once you arrive?
Then they start yelling at you and you go through the routines and you go through getting your
uniforms and getting yelled at again and then going doing a lot of paperwork and a lot of yelling
and finally you get to your- your dormitories and meet your technical drill sergeants and start
going through the procedures.
Interviewer: Okay so what did Air Force basic training consist of when you were there?
(5:06)
It was, I- I look back at it, it was pretty easy. It was eight weeks we had our obstacle course
which I can remember going through the obstacle course and going ahead of my flight and into
�the next flight and when I got through I kind of got my butt chewed for going too fast. I had ran
cross-country in high school and so it was pretty easy jumping over obstacles and going into the
water and I just enjoyed doing it but yeah I was doing it too enthusiastically.
Interviewer: Alright and how much emphasis do they put on discipline and following
orders?
(6:00)
Well that's where they- they break you down, they, you want to become a team member as
opposed to an individual and so it's a daily routine of shining your shoes, shining the floor,
making sure your bed is, can bounce a dime off of it. All of these insignificant things are all part
of a discipline team building and putting you into a- a group of men that are all doing the same
thing for now and that's I think that's what one of the most important things about basic training.
Interviewer: Okay now did you understand that at the time or figure that out later?
Not really you- you wonder, you know I looked back now and I- I understand why and just like
going to college it's a discipline and that's the- that's the key the discipline.
(7:06)
Interviewer: So, for us it's just do the reading, well in your case it’s make the bed, right.
Okay how long did basic training last?
It was eight-week course and it was a lot of in-class study, learning about the flag, learning about
the history of the Air Force, learning how to salute, how to march, it's… going through the gas
chamber, and shooting the M16 and that time we shot the M1 rifle.
Interviewer: Okay.
The M16 hadn't come out yet.
�Interviewer: Yeah, I mean the standard rifle for the army actually in ‘62 was gonna be still
the M14 which is improve… but you had the original World War II vintage M1s?
Right to start with, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay now what was the gas chamber for?
(8:02)
I- I really don't know it again that's probably the discipline cause you would go in there, they
would turn the- the gas on and you would just stand there, it was tear gas and they would wait for
you to beg to get out of there and everybody would be crying and yelling and screaming, and
finally when they- they know when you've had enough and you'd run out of there and you'd be
eyes would be dry, crying, and…
Interviewer: Okay because sometimes when people talk about this in other branches of
service, I mean there's a gas mask they get to put on at some point.
Right.
Interviewer: Did you have that or?
We- we did at the very last minute they get the gas masks put on, but it was still traumatic you
know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
But it was part of that discipline.
Interviewer: Okay now had you already selected what your training was your- your
specific training was going to be, or did they determine that once you were there?
(9:08)
They determined that's one of the classes that you go through and interviews and so on. I- I had
to assume that I was going into electronics because I scored real high in that and so I, at the end
�of basic training they tell you where you're gonna be going and mine was Amarillo, Texas for
automatic pilot school.
Interviewer: Okay and how long would you stay at Amarillo?
I went through Amarillo it was basically a- a twenty-eight-week course.
Interviewer: Okay.
And I got halfway through it and there was a- a glitch in the paperwork somewhere so I ended up
in another class and I finished that up, so I was there probably thirty-two weeks and finally got
through it.
(10:13)
Interviewer: Okay what did the training there consist of?
Again it was, the dormitories, the routine, keeping your dorm clean, spit-shining your shoes,
inspection of your uniforms, but then during class time you would go to school in the morning
and they would teach you elect- basic electronics and then they would go into your primary
automatic pilots and, but it was sort of like basic training with the regimentation going to the KP
in the- in the cafeteria and then we had more free time in base- in technical school on the
weekends as opposed to basic training.
(11:11)
Interviewer: Okay so what were the living conditions like there?
World War II dorms a lot of the- the wall board was unpainted but the- the dorms were spotless
because we kept them that way and no air conditioning but it was you know down in Amarillo,
Texas it- it gets kind of hot and it gets cold and hot and so we had our blankets and so on, but it
was- it was fairly good compared to what I hear of the Army.
�Interviewer: That would depend on where you were with- with the Army but that's you
know did you at least have stoves or heaters of some kind in the barracks?
(12:00)
Yeah it- it had furnaces.
Interviewer: Okay.
Yeah.
Interviewer: And were you beyond the level of using coal, or were you?
Oh yes.
Interviewer: Okay.
Yeah it was- it was heated but it was cold.
Interviewer: Yeah and probably not very well insulated or anything else.
Right, right.
Interviewer: Okay and so what were you actually learning to do? They're training you
something with auto pilots?
Yeah you're first learned electronics and then you learned all about airplanes, the wings and the
fuselage, and so on, and then the- the autopilot system the pilot flips a switch and it'll fly by itself
until it gets to a- an airport and then it'll, pilot lands it but it pretty much took care of the airplane
in flight.
Interviewer: So you're learning basically how it works and how to maintain it?
(13:02)
Yeah, changing servos that would put the ailerons and the elevators
in certain positions and at that time we were still using tubes if I can remember it correctly and
solid state had come at a- another time but we learned G limits- monitors that the aircraft would
�fly in a particular attitude and if it went, took too many G's it would flip off the autopilot system
and- and things like that that we would learn.
Interviewer: Okay now did you have, did you work with actual aircraft or just with the
parts?
(13:56)
In the, in Amarillo we just learned the parts and the mach- the equipment we didn't go into the
actual aircraft until we went to our next base.
Interviewer: Okay now at least un- until the last few weeks were you pretty much with the
same group the whole way through?
Yeah you were with a- a class and- and then you were assigned to a dormitory and a squadron, a
flight and we stayed pretty much as a team.
Interviewer: Okay now when you went off the base what did you do?
Down in- down in Amarillo I had a- a chance to go out with my lieutenant, executive officer we
went out to some of the ranches and we would explore Indian Ruins and it was pretty interesting
and I'd never done that before out in the deserts and out in the pastures out there on the ranches,
we'd look for a circle of rocks, an old circle and it would, you’d sift through there and you'd
contain arrowheads, it was pretty interesting.
(15:23)
Interviewer: Okay now was it normal for officers and enlisted to hang out together off
base?
No, no that was forbidden.
Interviewer: Okay.
�I think this relationship there was pretty much professional and it's something that was done, I- I
don't know how we ended up starting it but we both had the interest in arc- archaeology and so
on and so that started that.
(16:00)
Interviewer: Alright now if you think back over the time in Amarillo are there any
particular events or experiences or broader impressions that kind of stay with you?
No, other than I remember the- the, our drill sergeants would say, “you're welcome to go AWOL
in Amarillo if you want, because we could see walking in Amarillo for four days and you'd still
be seen because it's so flat,” and that was a- a big joke that you could go AWOL in…
Interviewer: Okay was there much to do in the town? Was there much of a town there?
Well at the time there was some parks and we went out on, in some, there were some rivers that
we'd go to and just have a little fun at, but it was mostly everything on base.
(17:00)
Interviewer: Did they have bars?
I don't recall because I wasn't old enough.
Interviewer: Okay.
And they do on all- all of our bases we have Airman's Clubs…
Interviewer: Right.
NCO Clubs, and Officers’ Clubs.
Interviewer: Okay so the drinking age there was 21 at that point or?
Yeah, yeah and I wasn't much of a drinker to start with.
Interviewer: Yeah, you’re a good boy from West Michigan.
Yeah.
�Interviewer: So of course not.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah okay alright so you're there… okay so that's like close to eight months I
guess, alright and then where do you go once you finish that course?
Well I got my orders and all of us as a- a team members we don't necessarily travel to the next
base, we all go out as individuals and I think there was probably four of us that went to Luke Air
Force Base in Phoenix, Arizona.
Interviewer: Alright.
And that's where we learned our auto pilot skills.
(18:02)
Interviewer: Okay, working with actual aircraft now?
Actual aircraft, we started with the F-100, that was called the lead sled and they used that
extensively in Vietnam.
Interviewer: Alright now describe that aircraft a little bit.
It was a one of the first what they call a Century Series aircraft, F-100 and had a big nose to for
the intake on the- on the jets and as far as my job I, we would lift up the hood on the- on the
aircraft and our equipment was right inside. And then some of them had two-seater aircraft and
some were single. We would go in, have to lift the canopy up and go in and set in the- in the
canopy or in the cockpit there and play with our instruments with the- the ones that we were in
charge of and that was interesting setting on an ejection seat with the power on and that was
another thing that we learned
about in school, there's a separate class in that so you always want to be careful as to what levers
you're pulling.
�(19:30)
Interviewer: Alright now did you ever get a chance to go up in an F-100?
No I didn’t, no I the- the closest I got that we would run ‘em and the we wouldn't run ‘em but the
crew chief would run it and then we would test our- our system by running the ailerons and the
elevators and the rudders and making sure everything worked correctly, properly.
Interviewer: Alright and how long did you stay at that base?
I was there for about a year and one of the things I remember about Luke Air Force Base is
you're at, near the Mojave Desert and you'd get these sandstorms coming through. You're out on
the- out on the runway and there you can see from the distance sandstorms, so you jump in the
cockpit and you close the cockpit canopy and- and there you set until the sandstorm runs over. Itit's quite a- it was quite an experience.
(20:45)
Interviewer: Okay now how was life on this base different from life while you were
training?
That, completely different, you still had dormitory inspections probably a couple times a month,
and you had roommates, and you had a, we were in a two-man room. We were free to go around
the dorm- around the base, we had first couple months, we had to get permission to go off base
and that was kind of a liberty thing but on base you had the libraries, you had the cafeterias, the
bowling alleys, the Airman's Club, and there's plenty to do on an Air Force Base.
(21:42)
Interviewer: Okay and what kind of aircraft were you working with?
That was the F-100 only on- on the at Luke.
�Interviewer: Okay and was there a particular squadron or a wing that was based there that
you were with or were you…?
Yeah, I wanted… the Air Force is kind of different from the Army and the Marines, we were in
a, I was in an A&E squadron, armament and electronics they call it. I don't recall 314th seems to
be the… but we were just members of that squadron and we worked on the aircraft but when we
left the base, when we rotated to another base we rotated again as individuals. We- the squadron
didn't move from one to another.
(22:37)
Interviewer: So, the squadron was essentially part of sort of the staff of the base.
Part of a base, yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah so you're just in- in that ball game there.
Right, right.
Interviewer: Alright now so what year is this then that you’re…?
This would be in 1963.
Interviewer: Okay so at this point it's still pre-Vietnam although actually air assets are
already.
Yes.
Interviewer: Getting over there.
I had volunteered for Vietnam that- that year and I was single so I put in a volunteer statement
and nothing ever happened and- and then the only thing that happened to me was I got engaged
and from Luke Air Force Base I was- I was reassigned to the 33rd Tech Fighter Wing in Fort
Walton Beach, Florida, Eglin Air Force Base. During that time between Luke Air Force Base
and going to Eglin Air Force Base I got married.
�(23:41)
Interviewer: Okay.
So, I withdrew my Vietnam request.
Interviewer: Alright okay now at that point for a while there- there was a rule that- that
said that the married personnel didn't get sent overseas.
Right.
Interviewer: Or then- then later it was if you had children you didn't get sent overseas and
eventually all of those went away but I think some of that depended on when you started,
so you were early enough that…
I was early.
Interviewer: That those rules may just apply to you automatically.
Right.
Interviewer: And then be in place afterward.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay and so when- when did you go to Eglin then?
In April of ’65.
Interviewer: Okay.
We had just started a new wing that, it was an old wing brought up from World War II but 33rd
Tac Fighter Wing was the F-4c Phantom jet and that was the newest thing introduced to the Air
Force, it was brought over from the Navy. The Navy had had the F-4s and we adapted them for
the Air Force and that became, that replaced the F-100 in Vietnam and became the- the go-to
aircraft.
(25:02)
�Interviewer: Okay and so for people who don't know a lot about that kind of thing what
separates the F-4 from the F-100?
All, the F-4 was all integrated systems, transistors, and diodes, and all you- you take a box out of
the aircraft and you put in another box. Whereas in the F-100 we would take the box out of the
aircraft, go back to the shop, fix it, put it back in the aircraft. These were all, the F-4 was all
modular everything was state-of-the-art.
Interviewer: Okay and then in terms just what the aircraft could do what's the difference?
The aircraft was much faster, more maneuverable, the F-100 like they called it the Lead Sled it
had- it had some good bombing capabilities but the F-100 was able to carry more of a payload
and was much faster than new F-4.
(26:15)
Interviewer: The F-4 was- was much faster.
F-4 yeah.
Interviewer: Okay alright and as far as you were concerned as a mechanic did working on
the F-4 make the job easier? Harder? Or was there new challenges?
It was- it was much easier again it was a brand new- brand new wing and so ever, we were, we
even had to build our- our shops and everything was right from scratch. We were issued tools,
new tools and the maintenance, it was we probably worked for three or four days a week because
it was a brand new, we didn't even have all of our airplanes in. So, we were that new building up
the- the wing but working on the aircraft itself was, we learned, had to learn all about it. We went
to school because it was a brand new- brand new thing to us.
(27:29)
Interviewer: Alright and then so you had gotten engaged. So, when did you get married?
�Got married just before getting to Eglin Air Force Base.
Interviewer: Okay now at that point could you and your wife live off-base or out of
what…?
What we did is we lived, had our honeymoon right there at Eglin Air Force Base and then she
went back home.
Interviewer: Okay.
And I stayed there and- and learned the job. We didn't plan on living together until I got out of
the Air Force in a- a year from then.
Interviewer: Okay.
And at- in ‘66 when I got, before I got out, I had a choice of going with the- the wing to Oslo,
Norway for a fire power demonstration or getting out and I decided to get out of the service.
(28:31)
Interviewer: Okay.
And from that point, from Oslo then the wing went to, not the wing but the squad went to
Vietnam.
Interviewer: Okay.
So, I would have gone to Vietnam had I not gotten out of the Air Force.
Interviewer: Okay so at this point the Air Force for you that was just kind of one stage in
your life and now you were moving on.
Right.
Interviewer: Okay and so you go back to Grand Rapids so what year is that now that ‘66?
That was in ’66.
�Interviewer: Okay and once you got back to Grand Rapids what did you do?
I had the GI Bill so I was able to, I went down to Grand Rapids Junior College and then I went
over to Kendall School of Design for a semester and during all that time I was raising our first
child and going to work for Lear Siegler.
Interviewer: Okay.
(29:28)
And we're working seven days a week, 10 hours a day doing almost the same job for Lear that I
was doing in the Air Force but with Lear I was testing the equipment as opposed to actually
using it.
Interviewer: Okay and so how long does that last?
About a year, let's see I got a little over a year and March of ‘68 I got itchy feet and I wanted to
go back into the Air Force.
Interviewer: Okay.
And so, I had to get into the Air Force before my second child was born because they had the
restriction you couldn't go in with more than two children or more than one child. So I went in in
March of ‘68 I went back into the Air Force.
Interviewer: Alright now that the climate in the country has changed quite a bit in- in that
time but then you get into early ‘68 you know the Tet Offensive is- is started, and anti-war
movement is ramping up, and you have a lot of stuff kind of going on. You also have a lot
of people who are trying to avoid the draft or at least stay out of the Army or the Marines
by trying to join the Air Force or- or the Navy. Now do you have a special status because
you were, you had prior service and training?
�(30:53)
No other than I was prior service so I was able to- to keep my rank of I- I believe I was E-3
Airman First Class and so I went back in but I couldn't get into autopilot systems, and I could get
into electronics and I went into what they call inertial navigation systems, Doppler radar.
Interviewer: Okay.
And so, I had to go back to school at Keesler Air Force Base in Mississippi.
Interviewer: Now when you went down there did your wife stay in Grand Rapids or did
she come down?
She traveled with me there.
Interviewer: Okay.
And we gotta, had a trailer to start with and I can remember moving into the trailer, into this park
and we were right on a bayou and we had talked about the storms coming through, the
hurricanes, and so on. And I asked the landlord, “when was the last hurricane or the highest
water?” And he pointed up on a tree the water level and it was above all the trailers there. He
said, “that's been a while,” and so we were there like I said on the bayou and we, my daughter
walked out to the dock I can remember and there was a water snake that went right in front of her
and my wife saw that and by the next day she had packed up and went back to Michigan.
(32:36)
Interviewer: Okay.
So, I was there for a while for two or three months on my own and till I finally got a house and
we brought her back down.
Interviewer: Alright now how long were you at Keesler?
Keesler was from March of ‘68 till about to about ’70. It was, I got orders for Korea.
�Interviewer: Okay and the mean time so but was all that schooling or were you now
working on the base?
I- I was going to school for about six months and because I had prior electronics experience I
self-generated through the school and finished early and then I was selected as an instructor for
electronics and so I became an instructor there for probably a year and during that year we had
Hurricane Camille. And I can remember if you lived off base and they had a hurricane you had a
choice of going onto base because of the security and- and storm shelters and so on, or you could
stay off- off base. We elected to stay off base in our house and we were far enough off the beach
that we weren't gonna get flooded but I can remember looking out the window while Hurricane
Camille was coming through and the eye of the storm passed just to, in Gulfport just down from
us. And I could look out the window and saw all the trees going one way and then an hour or so
you could see the trees going the other way. And in the morning when we woke up, I had all- all
of us in the middle of the house, in the morning when I woke up the nails in the woodwork were
all out about a quarter of an inch from the house going back and forth and…
(34:57)
Interviewer: Now did you lose your windows or did they?
Nothing was damaged.
Interviewer: Okay.
We had limbs and so on around but I got out and I drove down to the beach and on the highway
was an ocean-going vessel sitting there and you could look down on the beach and there would
be dead cows because far out on an island there was a dairy farm and all those cows got
washed…
Interviewer: Wow.
�On to the beach. And there was, the water side of the highway was just leveled, the motels, the
bars completely leveled.
Interviewer: Okay now was this Biloxi, Mississippi?
This is in Biloxi, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay alright now when something like that happens the Military often gets
involved in clean up and support and other things like that so…
(35:53)
Right we had gotten out, the Air Force Base all the guys from the Air Force Base were assigned
to different groups and we would go out and police up the area and help in any way we could.
And probably the Air Force Base anywhere in the world, Army, Air Force, Marines there'sthey're there to help the communities and they certainly helped Biloxi.
Interviewer: Alright now are- are there other things that kind of stand out in your memory
from that time aside from the hurricane?
That, I would say pretty much no, we raised wire-haired terrier, but Biloxi was pretty much
getting family- family organized.
Interviewer: Right.
The kids were young, we were learning all about Military life, family life, and- and so on
meeting new friends.
(37:10)
Interviewer: Okay so did you just sort of socialize with other people who also had young
kids and things like that? Was there some kind of network there?
There was a camaraderie of that, we learned that when I was in Florida, we got together with
young couples because we had one child and there's, we had neighbors across the street from us
�that kind of took us in, they were older, and took us in and showed us the ropes. But meet a lot of
new friends, I wish we had Facebook back then so I could keep track of them all but, yeah.
Interviewer: Alright now you're also in- in the South in the 1960’s and you'd come down
from Grand Rapids I mean and you had a civil rights movement going and there had been
segregation and things like that, I mean to what extent were you aware of any of that kind
of stuff?
(38:11)
Such naive kids, my wife and I who, we had no idea that there was things like that going on. We
grew up at Grand Rapids in a- a pretty much all white school, we had two or three black students
in our class and didn't think anything of it. And we went down there and we saw these old shacks
along the road and we didn't see any of the white and black it was pretty much a community that
we didn't see any of that racism and so we didn't understand that that was really going on so we
were pretty much naïve kids.
(39:04)
Interviewer: Alright okay, alright now the orders for Korea, was that a surprise or were
you expecting something?
Pretty much like I said in- in, we all go into our individual place- areas and- and there was five of
us out of the school, out of the instructor school that got orders. Three of us went to Korea and
two of ‘em went to Vietnam, so I could have gone to Vietnam very easily, but my assignment
was Osan Air Base, Korea.
Interviewer: Okay alright and how did they get you out to Korea?
(39:52)
�Flew, we went from Washington, Fort Lewis Washington, Tacoma to Korea that was quite a
long- long ride you'd fly it into Alaska and then from Alaska to Korea.
Interviewer: Okay and where is Osan in Korea?
It's below the 38th parallel it's in probably the middle of South Korea, it's kind of a, there's
several air bases around there but Suwan and- and Osan were pretty close together.
Interviewer: Okay alright and now your job is essentially what you had…
My- my job is a little different this time like I said in- in Mississippi I was
working on Doppler radar, inertial navigation systems. We had I believe it was three or four CT
29s and they were used strictly to monitor the DMZ zone, so when they flew we didn't work, we
worked when they were- when they landed and if there was anything wrong we would go fix thethe Doppler radar.
(41:26)
Interviewer: Okay.
But if there's nothing wrong we didn't work and so we spent a lot of downtime in Korea not
working and…
Interviewer: Alright now the aircraft itself was- was that propeller-driven or a jet?
Yep, it was propeller- driven it was a C-47.
Interviewer: Okay.
I believe C… CT 29s, it was a above the C-1, C-23s. This was a four-engine turboprop and
camouflage paint and strictly used for recon on the DMZ.
Interviewer: Okay so it had radar systems, so basically it would fly over and try to monitor
any kind of activity there?
Had- had cameras, big cameras and it’d take pictures of the DMZ.
�(42:24)
Interviewer: Alright now at that point in- in time I mean was there much tension there
along the border? Where their incidents are things that happened in that period?
Daily, they would rake the beach every day and you would walk down the street and every
intersection had a anti- aircraft in- encampment there. They took it very serious, you didn't,
Koreans themselves wouldn't- wouldn't walk down the street without carrying an ID card. The
ID card was their freedom and that they took the North and South very serious.
Interviewer: So, they were always concerned about infiltrators or anything else like that.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Now you said, “rake the beach,” where you near…
Yeah near the… I think it's a Yellow Sea, China's…
Interviewer: Was it on the western side, south of Seoul? Or where you on the other side?
No we were south of Seoul.
(43:34)
Interviewer: Yeah.
But when, on the beach they would rake it so they could tell whether somebody landed or swam
or however and they could tell whether somebody was on the beach infiltrated, so.
Interviewer: Alright and now did you have Korean military personnel working with you at
all?
No, we had, this was all Air Force.
Interviewer: Okay.
Back at Luke Air Force Base we had civilians that would work with us, but this was all Air
Force.
�Interviewer: Okay but you still had contact with at least the civilian population that area…
Oh yeah, oh yeah we have papasan for our dormitories and we would have, we'd go off base and
fraternize with the locals. Our big thing was going to the orphanage, most every weekend we'd
take a Air Force vehicle and go to the orphanage and they would treat us like kings. We would
play with the kids and then they would put on a little skit for us and they would put a display of
fruit and vegetables and we'd eat, just it was very touching the orphanage.
(45:05)
Interviewer: Okay now did you bring things to them or give them support of one kind or
another?
I don't think we brought anything to them, there was, it- it was more just going there and playing
with them, watching them, them having somebody. Koreans love to have a conversation with an
American, they- they like that English, learning English conversation that was one big thing that
stood out with me.
Interviewer: Okay and did some of the single guys have Korean girlfriends and things like
that?
(45:46)
Yeah that was- that was part of a lot of- a lot of the Orientals that you see in the States nowadays
were from the Korean and Vietnamese and so on. It would be a thing, young ladies were kicked
out of their families at a young age 13, 14, 15. They had no use, these are stories that I've been
told and that I've seen, the- the boys in the family could produce, they would farm and so on but
the girls were not too much use. So they were sent off to the city, big city and Mamasan would
take ‘em in because they had no place to go, so Mamasan would have them work in their club,
tend bar, waitress, and buy ‘em clothes, feed ‘em, give ‘em a place to stay and before you know
�it the young lady is there for a year or two and she owes Mamasan several thousand dollars
because interest rate is so high and she could never pay it off. So, she's indebted, Mamasan takes
her ID card and she can't go out onto the streets and so she's pretty much an indentured slave
right there. So, a GI comes along and meets her in the bar and they start seeing each other and
before you know it, he pays off Mamasan and buys her salvation and then they move into a- a
little hooch themselves and end up getting married.
(48:00)
Interviewer: Or not probably.
Transferred to the… what’s that?
Interviewer: Probably some of them don't get married.
Oh yeah, yeah but the ones that get married are transferred to the States.
Interviewer: Right.
And it's a whole- a whole new story.
Interviewer: Sure, okay and I guess I mean of course some of them would, they would wind
up, they’re working for Mamasan they wind up in prostitution in some cases.
Oh yes.
Interviewer: Now where there also drug problems at that time?
I didn't see- I didn't, the only thing I can remember is a few of the guys would smoke marijuana,
but as far as drugs no.
Interviewer: So, heroin hasn't gotten there or anything like that?
No, no it was- it was pretty clean there was the venereal disease and so on but then AIDS wasn't
there yet.
Interviewer: Right.
�(48:54)
And but it was pretty utopia, you'd go to the, you go down to the village and you'd go to the bars,
you'd drink, have fun, go back to the dormitories, you have to be off the streets by 10 o'clock at
night. And if you weren't off the streets then you would end up in a- a hooch with a girl and that
would be your life saving until the morning when you could get back out onto the streets.
Interviewer: Right, now did you learn to eat Korean food?
Loved it, I was 185 pounds when I went to Korea and when I left, I was a hundred and forty-five.
I ate everything, I'd go out to the farmers, out to the farmland and they would be welcome you in
and you'd sit around the table and they have about ten different items, they just ate tremendously
but it was dried fish, kimchi, which was very hot and everything was irrigated with human feces
and so you have to clean it real well and I would have all kinds of diarrhea and parasites and you
name it that but I- I went out and I enjoyed it.
(50:29)
Interviewer: Okay now did you develop any resistance to that stuff after a while or?
Evidently I could go down to the village and you'd go through the market and there would be
squid, dried squid hanging, you’d pull the tentacle off and you'd eat it like rawhide, you know
like jerky. And you'd go in, I- I'd eat the octopus, I’d eat it all. I pay for it.
Interviewer: And you’re still alive.
And I'd still pay for it, yeah.
Interviewer: Alright now I take it your, while you were in Korea your family was still back
in the States.
Right that was an unaccompanied tour.
Interviewer: Alright so how long total did you spend in Korea?
�13 months.
Interviewer: Okay.
I did come home for Christmas and saw my grand- my son for first time he was talking. Boy that
really tore me up.
Interviewer: Now- now when- when you got back, I mean did he know who you were?
(51:31)
Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: Good because he wasn't afraid of you?
Yeah, we kept in touch you know through telephone and letters and so on.
Interviewer: Okay now when you called home could you just use a regular phone line for
that or?
Yeah.
Interviewer: Was there…
Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay so it wasn't like in Vietnam where you had to have a ham radio operator
in the middle or whatever.
Right, right.
Interviewer: Okay now I'm looking at your sequence, I thought one of the things that you
did before Korea was you spent some time as an Air Force recruiter?
Yeah that was your right we went from, well we went from…
Interviewer: Eglin?
Mississ- from Eglin to… how did we go?
�Interviewer: Or was it, or did you go from Mississippi to Grand Rapids?
Went from Mississippi to Korea.
Interviewer: Okay.
And then from Korea to Grand Rapids as an Air Force recruiter.
Interviewer: Okay and was that your first stint as a recruiter?
Yes, it was.
Interviewer: Okay so before we get there, other things that stand out in your memory from
time in Korea?
(52:36)
Pretty much the orphanages, the, I did fly on the CT 29 and we were able to fly along the DMZ
and the pilot and navigator and told us what he was doing and showed us everything. That was a
very interesting, but the life in Korea was pretty much on base, working, we went we- we met
some college students from Korea, and they were just interested in talking, they want- they want
in the most way to learn conversational English.
Interviewer: Right.
And so, we did that and…
Interviewer: Did you go into any of the larger cities like Seoul or any place?
(53:31)
Oh I was in Seoul with the friend of mine we- we walked, we were walking down the street in
Seoul and just enjoying, looking at different sites and so on and all of a sudden we went into this
teahouse and the lady told us, “you know you’re not supposed to be in this area,” and it was in a
trucking area, and I guess it was off-limits to either United States, U.S. people or it was off-limits
�to military and so we scurried out of there real quick, had no idea, we just walked, enjoined, and
so that was our tour in Seoul and then we, you go back and forth on a bus, a military bus.
(54:33)
Interviewer: Okay now were there ever actual- any actual incidents involving you know
North Koreans or people trying to get on your base or anything else like that?
No, it was pretty much peacetime, nothing to write home about.
Interviewer: Okay alright so you have, you finished Korea now you get to go back to
Grand Rapids and now you're working as an Air Force recruiter and now this is like early
1970s here, okay so describe what- what was that like?
Being an Air Force recruiter was one of the proudest moments, proudest times in my career. I
was, went to Lackland Air Force Base for recruiting school and then I came home, and I was
assigned to Allegan County, South Kent County, I had several about 20 schools that I would go
to each, I would make my rounds of all the schools. And the- the big thing that stands out is
some of the teachers and counselors that I had met complemented me on the fact that I would go
to the school and present myself and ask to see so-and-so student to recruit and unlike the other
Military services they would come in and they would demand this, and demand that, and I want
to see this person and that person, but mine was a low-keyed approach and I made a lot of friends
with the counselors, friends that I have today I even bowl with one that I talked- talked to about
going into the service and he ended up joining the Navy as an officer. So, these are the types of
friendships and- and things that I did as an Air Force recruiter.
(56:46)
Interviewer: Okay now did you encounter any kind of anti-war sentiment or would there
be people in some of these places who were hostile to you because you were recruiting?
�No, I- I always and this was in the- the height of Vietnam, I was always proud to walk around
with my uniform and I had never been harassed except one time I went into South Christian High
School and there was a very liberal female teacher that said something about it and her other
teacher they said, “just ignore her, she- she doesn't know what she's talking about.” But that was
the only thing that stood out because I had- I had never been harassed, never been spit on.
Interviewer: Well this was not exactly a hotbed of radicalism.
Right.
Interviewer: Especially outside of the City of Grand Rapids itself probably.
Right.
Interviewer: You would not encounter a lot of that too much, alright now what kinds of
things motivated people to join the Air Force at that point?
(57:49)
Jobs and schooling, the when I was there that my first tour, women were being accepted into the
Military to do non- non female roles. I had put in the first jet engine aircraft mechanic that was a
female. Beautiful little girl from Wyoming- Wyoming High School and she- she was a model, I
mean she was just gorgeous and I says, “you want to go in a jet engine?” “Yeah I want to do
something that is, that women don't do,” so she did go into the Air Force and she did go in to jet
engine mechanics and after about three years she says, “I'm tired of being one of the guys and
getting grease under my fingers,” and so the Air Force offered her any job, she was qualified for
everything she- she scored high and she decided that no I'm gonna get out. And so, they offered
you know one or the other, she decided to get out and to this day she had, I still see her from time
to time and she says, “I wished I had stayed in.” And that's the- the type of person I think that I
was putting in the Air Force I have a- a log scrapbook then when they come back on leave and I
�encourage them to stop in and see me. I have ‘em sign-in and take a picture and see how they're
doing. Several of my recruits have retired from the Air Force and the ones that stayed in for four
they said, “it was great time, I enjoyed it, I learned a lot but I'm not gonna do it again,” you
know.
(1:00:06)
Interviewer: Yeah at this point did you have some people who were doing this to stay away
from the draft?
Yes but most of them were I would say most of them I recruited myself. They- they didn't
necessarily come into my office to get out of the draft.
Interviewer: Okay.
But yes, some of them were motivated to- to do that but most of them were coming in to look for
a job.
Interviewer: Alright now how many people would you get in a month or did you have
quotas or?
I had quotas, we would have maybe four or five men a month and then they started putting
quotas on us for the females and I did very well, and I think I won an award for recruiter of the
month for female. They also had prior service quotas and a lot of the prior servicemen that I put
in I still see today and communicate with them today. The quotas were met without any problem,
the Army, Navy, they would always, we were in the same offices all together and would always
see if they had any- anybody that I could give ‘em and we did, a lot of the kids that didn't qualify
for us we'd send ‘em over to the Navy, and the Army, and the Marines.
(1:01:47)
�Interviewer: Yeah, I guess how tough were the rules or the expectations?
Our- our expect- expectations on qualifying mentally were strict. We would require on a Air
Force qualifying test a score of at least I believe it was 31, I'm not exactly sure but the Army and
the Marines could go down a- a couple points and so we’d send ‘em over. Physically if they
didn't pass our physical, they pretty much couldn't pass the physical for the other services either.
Interviewer: Yeah right did you have people who didn't pass the physical who’d go away,
get in better shape, and come back?
(1:02:36)
Yeah had a young lady that had to lose her weight and she lost it and she's retired, stayed in. I
just communicated with her a- a few weeks ago on Facebook and…
Interviewer: Okay now how long did that first stint in Grand Rapids last?
Four years.
Interviewer: Okay.
It was a four-year tour at the end of it I was the tester, I would travel around West Michigan up
to Traverse City and give the ASVAB Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery.
Interviewer: Right.
To schools, to the Air Force offices, to give the tests to the students.
Interviewer: Okay now do you, did they, did the Air Force just rotate you out of that
assignment or did you ask for something different?
(1:03:28)
No, it was a normal rotation and from there I was assigned to Arkansas.
Interviewer: Okay.
Little Rock, Arkansas.
�Interviewer: Alright and what were you gonna do there?
I was working on C-130s in my inertial navigation Doppler radar.
Interviewer: Okay.
And it was like a duck out of water going from recruiting back into the maintenance and that
time they went from transistors to solid-state, they hadn't gotten into what they have today yet
but.
Interviewer: So, it wasn't computerized yet?
It- it was, we were always computerized we had kind of like an analog computer as opposed to
the digital age. Looking back at- looking back at Little Rock was, it- it still old-school electronics
but the C-130 aircraft is- is still going today and it was a workhorse in Vietnam and that's whatthat's what we use.
(1:05:00)
Interviewer: Yeah so that's the big cargo plane.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay now where some of the C-130s fitted with extra equipment because a C130 can do different things.
It can, we used it strictly for cargo.
Interviewer: Okay alright and now did you have to learn new technology or upgrades from
what you had worked with before?
Pretty much I just learned it through this squad, through the shop. I was assigned to work with a
few guys, and we learned C-130, we had a- a classroom set up for a couple weeks.
Interviewer: Now what rank were you at this point?
I was a staff sergeant, E-5.
�Interviewer: Okay so when you come in and you join this particular group you have some
seniority or…
Yeah, I was in charge, I had two or three people under me that would work.
(1:06:02)
Interviewer: Okay now did your family move with you to Little Rock?
The family was with me, took the dogs and kids and jumped in a, I think we took a U-Haul to
Little Rock and got a house. We lived on base so that was kind of nice.
Interviewer: Now was there a school on the base or did the kids go off base?
Yeah, on- on base housing and they had the school right on the base and some of the high school
kids would go off base but there was a- an elementary school on base.
Interviewer: Alright and how long were you there?
(1:06:50)
A year, about a year and a half and one of the things that I- I forgot about was I was a bowler and
I started, I've always been a bowler all my life but in 1972 when I was a recruiter I started getting
active in bowling and I was a- a junior bowling coach, my daughter was one of my students, one
of my bowlers and I became active in the Association, the Bowling Association and became a
director of the Grand Rapids Bowling Association. So, when I went to Arkansas, I was a junior
bowling coach there because all of our Air Force bases have bowling centers and entertainment
like that. As a matter of fact, a bowling center on an Air Force Base is the community center that
everybody goes to to have coffee, to eat, to socialize, and so on. And so, in Arkansas I was a
junior bowling coach and then became a member of the, their association board and this is where
I met a lot of people that I would be eventually stationed with in another base.
(1:08:34)
�Interviewer: Okay.
And so, in Arkansas we went out to the Diamond Mines in- in Arkansas, one of our things to do,
activities. And I did a- a lot of metal detecting out there besides our, we in the Air Force you
work about eight hours a day and you have Saturdays and Sundays off unless there's activities.
So that's how I sold the Air Force too as a recruiter, was it was like a job, full-time job that you're
on call 24 hours a day, seven days a week, but you only work just like at normal, normal job.
Interviewer: Okay now what brought the Arkansas assignment to an end?
(1:09:35)
From there we went to, I went to Omaha, Nebraska for a school to learn- to learn the KC-135
and we were on our way to Okinawa and so I- I learned the KC-135 that's a big Air Force tanker
and that's what I was gonna be working on in Okinawa.
Interviewer: Okay so when do you get to Okinawa?
That I went there in ‘77 and from ‘77 to ’80.
Interviewer: Okay.
And there I had my family and we were able to bring our dog and flew over with the family on a
big 747. That took quite a while.
(1:10:37)
Interviewer: Yeah.
I remember the kids laid out the 77…7…
Interviewer: 747, yeah.
…47 was empty in the back so we were able to put all the armrests out and we would sleep on
the eight seats across and that was quite a - quite an experience.
Interviewer: Okay so what base were you at in Okinawa?
�We were at Kadena Air Base and overseas they call them Air Bases as opposed to Air Force
Base.
Interviewer: Right.
In the United States and we went to- got to Kadena and we had a little house off base and met
helicopter pilot as our neighbor and became real good friends with them. And did a lot of
hanging out, again he was an officer and I was an enlisted man but that, the fraternization there
was we were neighbors, you know. And so eventually we moved on base to a brand-new house
on- on a hill and it was pretty neat, everything is made of concrete because of the sy- the
typhoons.
(1:11:59)
Interviewer: Right.
And spent three and a half years on Okinawa and kids went to American school there and we
worked KC-135s.
Interviewer: Okay so what were you doing in your regular job then?
We'd go out and we'd work on the- on the airplanes. The pilots would fly ‘em and if there was
any- anything wrong with ‘em they’d write it up and we'd go out and take care of the write-ups,
go back to the shop.
Interviewer: Were you still working mostly with radar systems or?
Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
I'd be working with Doppler radar and…
Interviewer: And was this basically the same that you'd had on the C-130s in Arkansas?
Yes, pretty- pretty much the same.
�(1:12:55)
Interviewer: Alright and your, what was the relationship between the Americans and theand the locals in Okinawa?
Very, very good the only trouble we ever had was a- a few of the people would be against the B52s coming into land because they were nuclear capable.
Interviewer: Right.
And we had the SR-71 and there was a- a few protesters but other than that Okinawa was a small
island, about fifteen miles long and about two miles wide and we were there for three and a half
years you know just enjoying it. It was like subtropical, not as tropical as Hawaii, but this is
where all the mainland Japanese would come and honeymoon and- and visit, it was just a
wonderful place.
(1:13:59)
Interviewer: Okay alright so and of course this is all, now this is all post-Vietnam, so you
don't have anything… Cold War tensions are not really high at this point.
No Iran was one of the…
Interviewer: Yeah.
One of the problems there. Matter of fact one of our- one of our squadrons was lost in- in the
Iran when they went to rescue the hostages and all of a sudden I was involved in bowling again
and I was the island secretary treasurer of the Okinawa Bowling Association so we had an
intramural squad, a- a bowling league and one day one of the sq- one of the teams was gone and
that was the team that went to Iran to rescue the hostages and it was all top secret, we didn't
know a lot of it but you know the word gets around.
(1:15:13)
�Interviewer: Because I guess what there was that that was a sort of a failed attempt to get
in there and rescue, I think it was a heli- collision of helicopters I think, so it was a
helicopter unit or whatever that you lost.
Yes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
And so that was the- the era of when we were there.
Interviewer: Right and how old were you, were your kids by the time you left?
Let's see in ’77, ‘80 my daughter was fourteen and my son was twelve.
Interviewer: Okay.
And from there we went to recruiting duty.
Interviewer: Okay and was that back in Grand Rapids again?
(1:15:58)
Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Yeah, but back in Okinawa against, my it seems like my career had a dual career with the Air
Force and bowling. On Okinawa I was the island secretary treasurer.
Interviewer: Right.
Like I had said, before but we had seven bowling centers in Okinawa, on the Marine base and
Army base and once a year I had to have to go to all of those bases and inspect the pins, the
lanes, the, that's what I did and so everything was geared around bowling. My commander and
myself, and my wife, and- and his wife, we vacationed together, we bowled together on four
different leagues, and my commander was a- a major and still are friends today. He got called on
the carpet a few times for fraternizing but it's something that we did.
�(1:17:04)
Interviewer: Yeah.
Our- our kids and their kids vacationed together on the- at the recreate- the recreation site on
Okinawa and that’s what we did.
Interviewer: Yeah, alright well I’ve always had the impression that- that the Air Force was
at least a little more casual about that than the other branches.
Yes.
Interviewer: But they’re, they still frown on it though.
Right, right it was kind of an unwritten rule, but you know as- as long as you don't get involved
with the- the military operation and insubordination and so on.
Interviewer: Right, okay now you had talked earlier about helping recruit women into
some of these different occupations so when you were in Arkansas or Okinawa were there
women in any of your teams at this point?
(1:17:57)
Oh yeah, yeah I was in charge of young lady that was in Doppler radar with me and severalseveral women were out there on the flight line pulling aircraft equipment around, and being a jet
engine mechanic, and being an aircraft mechanic, being a cop that's one thing that women
weren't allowed to do at one time, and I put several of them in as security policemen.
Interviewer: Alright now were you aware of any issues of harassment or other kinds of
problems because they were women? Or was that not on your radar?
No, again it was kind of a unique thing, new thing and I would imagine I didn't hear anything,
you always do know that some of the old-timer’s, “women aren't allowed in here” and so on but
it was never out in the open.
�Interviewer: Okay.
(1:19:04)
If somebody didn't like it, they kept it to themselves.
Interviewer: Or if it was happening it wasn't getting reported to you.
Correct.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Right.
Interviewer: Okay alright so now you're going back, now would the Grand Rapids
recruiting assignment would be the last- would that be the last thing you did or?
That's the last thing I did and unfortunately, I couldn't get into Grand Rapids I was assigned to
Kalamazoo.
Interviewer: Okay.
So for a year I was in Kalamazoo and kept fighting my way to get back to the Grand Rapids
office but I would travel from Grand Rapids to Kalamazoo every day and because I had a house
that we bought when I was a recruiter the first time and we just rented that out while I was gone.
Interviewer: Right, okay now so you do this for about four years?
Four year.
Interviewer: In Michigan again, okay and now what leads you to retire out of the Air
Force?
(1:20:01)
Well my kids were in high school and I had an option of going somewhere else I didn't know
where, but going somewhere else or retiring and I thought as long as the kids now were in high
�school they had had friends before when we were there in- in ‘72 and so I wanted to keep
stability there.
Interview: Right.
They were- they were good in every school that they went to in the Military, they adapted well
but I thought it was time that we just settle down.
Interviewer: Okay and then did you find a job, a civilian job then?
I changed my uniform on Friday and put on my suit on Monday and sold real estate.
Interviewer: Okay.
And this is where I met Bill Schraeder and my…
Interviewer: So what- what led you into- into real estate?
Bill Schraeder, I was in the- in the office and recruiting office and Bill being the Military guy
that he is he would come into the office and he would talk to me, “I'm in real estate now, you
want to get into it.” So, him and I got into, I got into real estate with him in another office and we
became friends from that point on.
Interviewer: Alright so I guess when- when you look back now over your service career
what do you think you took out of that or how did that help to shape you?
(1:21:39)
It definitely made a man out of me like they all say going into Military, make a man outta you.
The- the probably the biggest influencer and so on is bowling. I bowled a lot in the Air Force as I
had explained and after I sold real estate, I bought a bowling center, I went, I graduated from
Davenport college the same year I retired from the Air Force.
Interviewer: Okay.
�And the Air Force paid three quarters of my tuition all the way through twenty years and I finally
retired or finally…
Interviewer: Graduated.
Graduated from Davenport College and I did a- a business plan on a bowling center and not
knowing I was gonna buy one six years later when I retired, I sold real estate and then I went in
1990 bought a bowling center. And one that I grew up in and…
(1:22:48)
Interviewer: So, which- which one is that?
Paragon Bowling Center in Burton Heights.
Interviewer: Okay is that still up and running?
It's still up and running, I've remodeled it from the early retro 1945 era to present and I had it for
sixteen years, sold it in 2006 and now I just drive Uber, work for the Christmas light show, and
metal detect, I'm a ring finder.
Interviewer: Very good. Alright well the whole thing makes for pretty good story and
definitely a distinctive one so thank you very much for coming in and sharing.
I appreciate it.
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e9920bdcd91f789c2e0bf7264933e8c7.mp4
a5fdbe7f2dd43ba56543a8220446cc78
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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LarabelG2325V
Title
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Larabel, Gregg (Interview transcript and video), 2019
Creator
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Larabel, Gregg
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Description
An account of the resource
Gregg Larabel was born on November 2, 1944 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. After he graduated high school, Larabel joined the Air Force on October 10, 1962 due to his interest in electronics. He attended basic training in San Antonio, Texas, and was then transferred to Amarillo, Texas for a thirty-two-week Pilot School where he was taught basic electronics and flight technology. After graduating Pilot School, Larabel was transferred to Luke Air Force Base in Phoenix, Arizona, where he was assigned to the 314th Armament and Electronics Squadron and worked on military aircraft, particularly the F-100 Super Sabre. After his training at Luke Air Force Base, Larabel was reassigned to the 33rd Tech. Fighter Wing at Eglin Air Force Base in Fort Walton Beach, Florida, where he attended more schooling to help work on the more technologically advanced and easier to maintain F-4 Phantom II. In 1966, Larabel left the Air Force and returned to Grand Rapids where he married, had a child, attended Grand Rapids Junior College and then Kendall College of Art and Design before going to work for the Lear Siegler Corporation testing automotive equipment. Two years later, he went back into the service, attending schooling and working at Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. When Hurricane Camille struck Biloxi, he and his Squadron were tasked with providing relief to the devastated local population. Larabel was later transferred to Osan Air Force Base in South Korea where he worked as a mechanic on aircraft which monitored the DMZ. Back in the United States, Larabel worked as an Air Force Recruiter for schools across Kent County, Michigan, then was rotated to Little Rock, Arkansas, where he began work as a radar mechanic on AC-130 cargo planes at the rank of E5 Staff Sergeant. In Little Rock, Larabel also became the Junior Bowling Coach for the on-base Bowling Association. He was then sent to Omaha, Nebraska, for a course on the KC-135 Stratotanker before being deployed to Kadena Air Base in Okinawa from 1977 to 1980. Before retirement, Larabel transferred back to recruiting in Michigan and later went to work selling real estate and purchased a bowling center in 1990. Reflecting upon his service in the Air Force, Larabel believed it made a man out of him and joked how bowling continued to capture his attention and influence his side careers while in the service.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-08
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a67bf7b5d4ae83e9bd62cb4c314e3282.pdf
fabd1e1e78ec54cc5378800eb20b79f4
PDF Text
Text
�������������������������������������
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Garland, Dudley Hoare (Interview transcript), 1945
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Garland, Dudley Hoare
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Garland, George (transcriber)
Description
An account of the resource
Dudley Hoare Garland served as an artillery officer in the Ninth Infantry Division during World War II. Assigned to Battery A, 26th Field Artillery Regiment, which normally supported the 39th Infantry Regiment, Garland eventually became its commanding officer, and then moved to the staff of the divisional artillery when promoted to the rank of Major. Garland landed with his unit in North Africa and served in North Africa, Sicily, France, Belgium and Germany. He was assigned to return to the US in March, 1945, and while there, he visited the office of his brother George in New York City, and recorded some of his experiences on his brother’s office Dictaphone. The original recording was not preserved, but George’s daughter, Kent Garland McKay, had the transcript, which she has shared with us for posting to this archive. This file also includes information given to Garland by his former commanding officer, Lt. Col. Lewis Lockett, when Garland visited him in a hospital in 1943. The transcript covers a variety of topics, including having his ship sunk off the coast of Algeria, fighting in Tunisia, Sicily, Normandy, Belgium and Germany, relationships with other officers and civilians, meetings with high ranking generals and political figures, and different aspects of daily life in the countries where he was stationed.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-03-12
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
GarlandD
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/914e4667ff45e2db00d15b988a7c9971.pdf
c5b31590280fdb881f8a30a772042938
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Moises Nazario
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interview length: 39:41
Interviewer: Alright, so we have gotten you now…Okay, so you had been talking—you
were talking about how you didn’t really want a Bronze Star, you just wanted to go back
out and—
Veteran: No, I didn’t. I turned them down, you know. I turned them down. I said, “No, I don’t
want Bronze Star. I didn’t get hurt.” You know, and the funny part is, when Obama started
handing these out, I was reading through some of the citations on these people and I said,
“Damn,” I said, “I did more than this thing, you know?” And they cheapened the award, you
know. Anyway, we got back there, you know, and we just continued our—through the sweep.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: One guy stepped on a mine. I was maybe from here…Maybe, well, close to 15 met—
not even 15 meters apart. You know? This guy got lifted off the ground. And I was right next
to—close to him. But luckily, I didn’t—nobody got hurt except this guy. And this guy only had a
laceration of the leg. I said oh man, I didn’t know at the time that the landmine, if it gets buried,
it continues to go up and then goes—and this mine that he stepped on, huge, huge, huge mine
because it really—all of us were covered with dirt. All of us were covered with dirt. It would
�have wiped us out if we had been all riding together. It would have wiped us all out. So,
somebody up there has been watching me, you know. Watching all. Well, whoever it was must
have been watching me. And I just—all I had to do on this guy was just put a butterfly bandage
on this guy. You know? I was the first one to, because I was close to him, I was the first one to
go to get to him as a corpsman.
Interviewer: Alright. And now, one other thing that you had mentioned kind of in passing
earlier—you said you spent your 30th birthday in Vietnam under not very—
Veteran: We had just got there. I just got there, and we were on the battalion sweep.
Interviewer: Okay. So, that was on the sweep, yeah.
Veteran: Okay, on the battalion sweep. We were at Hill 400. You have heard of Hill 400, right?
Interviewer: I have heard of a lot of hills.
Veteran: Yeah, we were there. And we found graves of North Vietnamese soldiers. We dug
our—we were supposed—we were sweeping that area to find out where some were left over.
Interviewer: Yeah. (00:02:29)
Veteran: But there was no more leftover Vietnamese. Instead, we found graves of these North
Vietnamese. There was about 15, 20 bodies in these graves.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: I didn’t bother to really get close enough to, you know. I didn’t want any part of that.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, what was the terrain like that you were operating in? What
kind of country were you moving and patrolling in?
�Veteran: Hills, rice paddies…
Interviewer: Did you get up into the mountains?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Yeah, we were like I say, the Ho Chi Minh Trail is right up there.
Interviewer: Yeah, well that is sort of over in Laos and coming out of Laos in Vietnam.
Veteran: We were there.
Interviewer: But you were up along the border in that area?
Veteran: Yep, up around that area. I think that’s what it was. You know, because—although we
came—could we have walked that far from Phu Bai?
Interviewer: You probably wouldn’t have walked the whole way. You would have taken a
helicopter for part of the way.
Veteran: Well, we did go by some helicopter but…I don’t know. Maybe we did.
Interviewer: Well, there were a lot of—well, and there were branches of the Ho Chi Minh
Trail that kind of come into the South Vietnam. One goes down to the A Shau Valley and
there is other places in there. But anyway, but you were in some mountain country, hill
country, lowlands with rice paddies… A bunch of different kinds of terrain.
Veteran: Yeah. That’s where we were ambushed that first time, that ambush that I was—
experienced. I wasn’t involved in the ambush, you know, but it was on that hill. In that—we
were up—and I was sitting in the mountain with my feet hanging and that’s where that chaplain
�and I were sitting and then we heard the chopping by the Marines—the head—they were cutting
the head of the…
Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. Alright, I just wanted to make sure we had that in there.
Veteran: I don’t know. Maybe that was at the Ho Chi Minh Trail?
Interviewer: Well, could be. Yeah and…
Veteran: I told you…
Interviewer: Well, the different—well, it will be possible—it’s possible to trace the route of
2nd of the 9th and kind of know where it was when exactly and tie it in. But yeah. But
basically, you are overall—you were in a variety of different kinds of areas. (00:04:44)
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Did you operate in any areas where they still had civilians?
Veteran: No. No, I just—the battalion that I was attached to had been known—all the burning of
the villages? This kept—the battalion did it. These are the ones that did it. You know, and by that
time, I was at Da Nang when they were doing that. But that—by the time I got there, they were
sent up north. They were sent up north to the…
Interviewer: Okay, because there were areas up there where they had taken the civilians
out. I mean, there were still some up in the hills, some that—
Veteran: No, I never…
Interviewer: But you were—
�Veteran: Well, I did. This is—saw some. We were in one of the…It looked like a city, you know,
looked like a city. We were walking on this Highway 1. I think that’s what they called it:
Highway 1.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah, along the coast of Quang Tri—either south of Quang Tri or near
Hue or…
Veteran: Yeah. We were walking there. But—and I—we saw some of those civilians. But we—
there was not—there was no fighting there.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: No, nothing.
Interviewer: Okay. Did you ever work at all with the South Vietnamese military?
Veteran: No.
Interviewer: Okay. Did you ever see them?
Veteran: If I did—I probably did but I am not—they are not significant enough for me to
remember, you know?
Interviewer: Alright. How would you characterize the morale of the Marine units that you
were serving with?
Veteran: The which one?
Interviewer: The morale.
Veteran: The Marines?
Interviewer: The morale of the Marines, yeah. Their attitudes. (00:06:17)
�Veteran: Very good. Very good. All of them were in a very good mood. Although, one of them
that we had eventually got cracked up, you know, and I had to send him back to the rear. We
were out somewhere in the village. Not in the village…Around a mountain close to the rice
paddies. And I heard this howl like a dog. And I thought oh my god, the—you know, we just got
out of rice and rice paddies. And I have very poor direction, so I travel with the radioman all the
time. I was close to him, violating the 15-meter rule.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: And I was falling down in the rice paddies and the guy came down along with me at the
time. And he’s like, “Get off me.” And when we got up there, all of a sudden, we hear this—I
hear this sound like a dog howling. What would you think when you hear something like that?
That somebody is around there close to you, you know? I said, “Oh man…” But it turned out, he
called me. He said, “Doc, come here.” So, I went in there and saw this guy. This guy was just
rocking on that ledge, or wherever he is sitting, cracked up. And later on, I found out that he felt
guilty because he’s one of the Marines that have probably raped some of the civilians and burned
the hooches, burned all these villages.
Interviewer: Yep.
Veteran: And he cracked up. But what I heard from the other Marines, you know, this is one of
the Marines that did it. And it’s too bad but I have to send him back to the rear.
Interviewer: Sure. (00:08:12)
Veteran: I had to call the medevac in the middle of the night. I called them. You know, that’s the
worst you could do is get somebody a—get the medevac. So, they asked me in one of the
situations that I was in, because they could see that the helicopter light right away.
�Interviewer: Yeah, that was not standard practice to send those helicopters in at night.
Veteran: No, but they did, you know. The…You know, maybe I didn’t call—maybe I didn’t call
a medevac on that one. I called the medevac right at the—where the defoliation happened where
1/9 got wiped out. And when we relieved them, we got a couple of Marines that…That really
bad. This one laceration on the neck, you know, with a—but I was able to stop the bleeding with
that one. And the other one, I don’t remember that one. And he threw a grenade, and it went back
to him. He threw a grenade; it went back to him. It hit a tree and went back to him. And the
captain asked me, he said, “What do you want? Do you think we should medevac him?” And
“What happened to him?” “I think he may have something else beside that, you know.” And I
said, “I think we better medevac, get this guy out of here. Get this guy out of here.” So, what we
did is I had—we had a party of Marines take these two guys way away from us so that the light
would be a good deal in there. And we medevaced in the night.
Interviewer: And do they get them out?
Veteran: They took them out.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: The chopper came in, but I don’t even know whatever happened to the guy, to those
two guys.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, did you finish your Vietnam tour with that company, or did you
get reassigned before you left? (00:10:15)
Veteran: Okay, I finished it. My time was up in July, okay, July of ’67. My time was up in July
of ’67. Well, in between that, the captain was going to be transferred. Okay. In July…Well,
�maybe even…Yeah, July, somewhere in there, he knows he is going to be replaced. So, he came
over to me. He said, “Hey doc,” he said, “why don’t you stay with me?” Now, he is asking me to
extend in the line of fire, you know. “Why don’t you stay with me?” he said, “I know what you
can do. I don’t know what these bozos coming in is going to do.” Yeah, I like this guy, you
know. This is the thing, you know. You probably—I don’t know if you’ll hear this from anyone
there, other soldiers that you do an interview. So, I told myself: I like this guy and I sure would
love to repay him, you know, because he seen all the wrong around that I did, in spite of all of
this, without taking a bullet, without even thinking about what is going to happen to me, you
know. So, I told him, I said, “You know, I will make you a deal.” I said, “I will make you a
deal.” I said, “Send me on another R and R to Manila and when I come back, I will stay here
with you until they pull you back out.” “Oh,” he said, “We can arrange that.” He called the guy
to get back down with the plane the same day. The same day, he send me to Manila.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You know, so I was one of the probably few guys there that were able to go on R and R
twice. Normally you only have one R and R.
Interviewer: Yeah. Not without good connections. (00:12:12)
Veteran: I had to do—I was able to do it twice because of that thing.
Interviewer: And you knew where to go. You went to Manila both times.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Yeah, I went. My grandparents were still alive at that time.
�Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And so, when I came back, I came back to him and fulfilled my promise.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: So, I extended my time but luckily, he is—that guy was really smart. That Captain
Long was really smart. And I guess the top brass in Phu Bai have a use for him there.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: So, about two weeks later, they pull him out. So, now I am free. I was free but I stayed
two weeks of my time there. And luckily, that happened within my two weeks of time.
Yeah…And but how many people would you hear that extended their time in the field?
Interviewer: I have met some who have extended for different reasons, and some of them
went back in the field. And some of them got two R and Rs if they had the right
opportunities.
Veteran: Oh.
Interviewer: But it is unusual.
Veteran: Yeah, you know, and I said, “Oh man.” I always got—I had no regrets about any of
those, you know.
Interviewer: Alright. Now when you think about the year that you spent in Vietnam, are
there other particular stories or memories that you have that you haven’t talked about yet?
�Veteran: Well, I had some contact with a—with the RMK company, a U.S. company that had
some Filipino surveyors, surveying some areas, you know. So, I was able to hang out with them
on the outside—outside of the compound.
Interviewer: Wait, hang out with who?
Veteran: With the Filipino civilians.
Interviewer: Oh okay. So, you did see some of the civilians. (00:14:08)
Veteran: Yeah, I see some civilians. I was able to hang out every so often because of the
surveyors. They are under contract to RNK.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And you know, we played mahjong with—eat some Filipino food with them, you
know.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you are going out with Filipino contractors and hanging out with
them.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay. That’s good. Alright. So, we get now—originally when we were doing
your paperwork, you said you were in Vietnam from October of ’66 to October of ’67. Is
that right? Or…?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Yeah.
�Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Yeah, right exactly to the day. But the night before I was leaving, it was scary because
there were a lot of rounds…That’s what I hear. And one of the rounds I thought I was incoming.
It was an outgoing round but boy, I ran to the bunker. I ran to the bunker. And I was the only one
at that, you know…I—that’s another thing too: when the people are ready to go, they become
very cautious, you know. Yep, I run to the bunker. After a while, I was looking around. There
was nobody running except me. And I said—I laughed at myself. I say, “You fool.” It was
very—there is some humor in some of the things that, you know, that we did there. But not too
many. Otherwise…And I was never…you know, it never dawned on me that I was going to get
killed. All the time I was there, I thought—I know—I was coming back, you know.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Whereas, in Cuba I was more tense, and I was more—it’s more harder for me in Cuba
than in Vietnam.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, you finish your tour in Vietnam, you come back to the
United States.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Are you planning on staying in the Navy at that point? (00:16:08)
Veteran: Well, I had ten and a half years. Okay, I got—they said they would transfer me to
Cherry Point, North Carolina. All of my requests was the Philippines. They transferred me to
Cherry Point, North Carolina.
Interviewer: Okay.
�Veteran: And I didn’t even know where Cherry Point, North Carolina was until I go there. Well,
while I was there, see I was going to night school. I was attending night school, taking some
courses to fill out the credits that I need for medical technology.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: Well, one of my classmates was the Command—Lieutenant Commander in charge of
personnel. Well, him and I got along really well while we were classmates. But the chief that he
was—that he had in charge of the personnel department…At the time he was chief, I was E-6.
Him and I…He’s just a typical redneck. You know? Him and I just didn’t see eye to eye. He’s an
alcoholic and all, you know, just a…So, I requested to go to lab tech school. The regular lab
tech.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: You know, the one that you see, you know. And so, they send out—I got the orders, but
they want—my transfer is in December. The start of school was January 6th. This moron wanted
to transfer me December—middle of December. I said—so I asked him, I said, “Can you transfer
me on the 1st of December, so I don’t have to be looking for a house for Christmas? I have
two…” We had one kid and my wife was about to deliver. My wife was about to deliver. He
said, “No.” He said, “You are going to reenlist.” My enlistment was expiring. “You are going to
reenlist anyway regardless of when I transfer you.” I said, “Okay.” So, the commander and I
were talking at the classroom.
Interviewer: Yeah. (00:18:16)
Veteran: I mentioned this to him. He said, “Why didn’t you come to me?” By that point, I
have—I have already gone out. I was decided to go out. The orders were already there for our
�goods to be picked up to be sent here to Milwaukee. So, he said, “Why didn’t you come to me?”
He said, “I could have transferred you even long before that.” I said, “Well, I see you got
somebody in charge of your department, I thought he knows what he’s doing, you know. So,” I
said, “I didn’t want to bother you with something like that.” You know? Boy, he chewed that guy
out.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: He chewed that guy out. You know, and he said, “Well, I’d like you to stay.” I said,
“Too late.” I said, “I got 50 day—I mean, 90 days to reenlist.”
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
Veteran: I got 90 days to reenlist. I said, “If it doesn’t work out…” because I never—I was really
mad at the Navy at that point because of them sending me to North Carolina, you know. I said, “I
don’t really, you know, I have no intention of staying.” At that point already, I was wanting a
nice civilian life. So, I got a job as a—at the time, I was only a lab assistant. I got a job at the
Milwaukee [unintelligible] as a lab assistant. And but then, Hong Kong Flu hit all of the family,
you know. Jeanie got Hong Kong Flu. The young—Becky…I mean John, our oldest son, got the
Hong Kong Flu. We only had two kids at the time. Becky and I got the Chicken Pox. So, we are
all sick. And I just got out of the service. I don’t have any—if you don’t work, you don’t have
any vacation, you have no money. So, we got bills to pay. I said, “You know, if I can get back
that school, maybe we should go back. I will talk to the recruiter and see if we can get—check
with Washington if I can get that school back. Then we could pay all these bills, you know.”
Interviewer: Yeah. (00:20:33)
�Veteran: We didn’t have any—much savings at the time, you know. Heck, I was 31 years old
you know, with nothing saved, nothing—you know? So, I went back and talked to the officer.
They called Washington. They didn’t even know I left. They didn’t even know I left. This is
already in December. So, Washington told them that that school I was supposed—that class I
was supposed to go to is already full, but they could put me in August. I said, “Is that a guarantee
that you’ll do it?” “It’s a guarantee that you are going to go to that school.”
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: So, I told to my wife, I said, “August? Yeah, we could go to—I will go in now then
maybe they will put me on a busywork schedule here, just picking up cigarette butts and all that
thing, you know.” So, I went back and reenlisted December 30th. December 30th, I reenlisted. I
joined the reserve in the meantime in between. I joined the reserve so I wouldn’t have any
broken service.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: So, I joined back. And I asked the lieutenant, I said, “What do you want me to do?”
Well, he said, “Nothing. Just stay home. I will give you a call. Just call me every morning, let me
know that you are still around. And when the orders come in—” we were waiting for my orders,
“—the orders come in, I will call you.” So, I went ahead and continued to work at the
[unintelligible]
Interviewer: Right. (00:22:25)
Veteran: --at the same time I was already getting my salary from the Navy. You know, so…I—
then they, in March, I got the order in March. So, I went from December to almost three months.
�Didn’t work in March, so almost three months. In March, they sent me back to—they send me to
Batista, at the research station in Batista.
Interviewer: Okay, so in Maryland.
Veteran: In Maryland. Awaiting for that class in June. So, I work at the research station there for
a while. And then, when that class in August started, they called—I got my orders to transfer
back there. In the meantime, the guy that trained me at Great Lakes in—I mean, the guy that was
the director of the laboratory at Great Lakes, who was responsible for the medical assistant
program, became the head of the training section of the pathology department in Maryland. And
at the time, he was soliciting people with the credits to college degree to apply for medical
technology program. It was just a higher level…
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: …than the—okay. So, I said, “Well, you know, I got—” he didn’t promise anything. He
said, “I will try my best to get you guys to take the national exam, the board exam, after you
complete this training.” He said, “I don’t want to—the ASAP, the CAP, to approve this to get
their approval because I don’t want them controlling the curriculum of the program.” And he was
a successful study of the CAP at the time, you know. So, I said, “You know, I got nothing to
lose, you know. I got a lot to gain but nothing to lose.” (00:24:38)
Veteran: I said, “So, I will apply.” I went ahead and applied. There were 21 applicants. All of
them with bachelor—two of us had a degree. We had over 90 credit hours. And out of the 21, a
lot of them are English majors so they didn’t have enough sciences in the…But I had a couple of
them with a master’s in microbiology. You know? And I was 1 of the 11 that was picked. The
other guy got picked too, the one with the, you know. And of the 11, 2 dropped out. They didn’t
�want to—they didn’t want the hassle of going through that program. They got—they were scared
of the—because he said this is going to be a very intensive study. This was really intensive
study. You know, unless you are—I read more books in that course than I have ever read in my
life, you know. You know, and so I went through it for a whole year. And that’s when I met, you
know, I met some other high energy people. One of them became President Nixon’s doctor.
Doctor Jacoby. And I was pretty tight with that Doctor Jacoby. You know, anywhere he seen me,
anywhere we met, he always stopped and shake my hands and, you know. And shake my hands.
He was very—I guess he—when I worked, I gave the best job that I have in my work, you know.
And that’s the same thing that happened with anybody that carried a tool, you know. And plus,
me going to school and doing all of that, he was very impressed that I had found this time to do
this. You know? So, at the time he was only a commander when I met him at Great Lakes. Then
he became a captain and then he became an admiral and became Nixon’s doctor.
Interviewer: Right. (00:26:47)
Veteran: You know? So…I got accepted to that program. I went to the program for a whole year.
And I finished at there too. One out of nine, I finished there. But we did—they gave us a sample
exam like the ASAP exam. I think I was 2nd out of the 9.
Interviewer: Yep.
Veteran: I beat the other guys. You know, so I thought oh boy, this is a snap. This is a snap. This
is solely going to be like this. It’s a snap. It turned out much worse than what was…That year,
the ASAP was moving from Muncie to Chicago. Yeah, so they were all in a mess, you know.
And the exam that they gave us that year was really hard. The cutting score was only 88. You
�know? I said, “Oh man, it was really hard.” I didn’t find out that I pass it. I took it in November.
I didn’t find out until June.
Interviewer: Wow.
Veteran: And I found out I scored 111. So, I said, “Oh man, that…” So, barely…So, I became a
medical—I was a—you know, became a registered medical technologist. And so, now I have
something to market outside when I leave the Navy, you know?
Interviewer: Right. (00:28:22)
Veteran: So, in the meantime, Southern Illinois University came into the—to Camp Lejeune
campus. They started that program, the on-campus program, they had one that actually started
that I think. Because other universities eventually started doing it too here. And so, they came in.
I gave them my transcript, whatever I had. They said, “Okay, you are qualified for that 18
months program and you get a bachelor’s in healthcare administration.” You know? I said, “Oh,
I’ll take it. You know, I will go ahead and go for it. I got nothing to lose. I have more to gain
than to lose, you know.” So, but Jeanie was really saddled with the kids. At the time, we already
had four kids, you know. So, she was taking care of the kids while I was at—most of the time.
Plus, I was working part time, you know. And I got my degree in hospital—in that healthcare
administration when I left Camp Lejeune.
Interviewer: Okay. So, what year was that?
Veteran: 1978. February 1978.
Interviewer: Alright.
�Veteran: And when—I got a job waiting at the Milwaukee County Hospital when, you know—
that’s that chief that I was telling you I got run in. We almost got into a fistfight at the time. And
I embarrassed him in front of a whole bunch of young kids. You know what, I don’t know what
started it. He said something…He would have decked me or something, you know, the way I
was—at the time, I was E-7, he was E-8. He was the officer of the day, I was the—I mean, he is
the officer of the day, I was the chief of the day at the hospital administration lobby, you know.
So, I told him, I said, “In our younger years,” I said, “I would have put you in the hospital.” I
said, “You know,” I said, “you know why you are staying in the Navy? You got nothing to offer
outside.” I said, “You have got nothing. You may be the best personnel officer in the world,” I
said, “but without that piece of paper, you ain’t worth a damn. You know, I got something I can
market. I don’t need you. I don’t need anyone of you to do anything for me.” (00:30:58)
Interviewer: So, when did you have this encounter with him? Was that in ’78?
Veteran: That—this is ’78, before I retired.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Before I retired.
Interviewer: I guess you…Okay, yeah, okay because that is—so, basically now you—so,
now you really—
Veteran: No, maybe even late ’77, right around.
Interviewer: Yeah. Right.
Veteran: After late ’77, I put my application in to retire because I heard you need to put it in a
year ahead of time, see.
�Interviewer: Okay. So, you have lined up yourself a proper civilian job. And you know
where you are going and so—
Veteran: Yeah. And he doesn’t have anything. And he is nothing but an alcoholic, you know, just
a…He made E-9 because he is a bootlicker, you know.
Interviewer: But you have gone off—okay, so now did you have a career in hospital
administration? Is that what you did?
Veteran: No. I went to medical technology because I already had the experience there.
Interviewer: Right. Okay.
Veteran: And then I went to [unintelligible] for the master’s in hospital administration.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And I was one semester—one credit short to get my master’s, but I got mad with the
dean. Him and I got—you know, I was accused of unethical research. You know, I was—I
wanted to break the union that came into Milwaukee County for medical technologists. But it
was really 49 to 51 split, you know, in favor of the union. But a lot of these people claimed they
didn’t really want the union. You know? (00:32:32)
Veteran: So, I wanted to break the union but how do you go about that? It’s been done. I found
out later on it has been done because I did a lot of this research. And there is a group in
Philadelphia that got out of the unionization, the medical unionization. But they went to court.
They went to court. So, in my research, I found this out. But for me to do the research, my
advisor advised me to survey the medical technologists under assumed name.
Interviewer: Oh…
�Veteran: You know, because if I put my name, they know me. I was supervisor of the blood bank
already at that point, see. I was supervising the blood bank there already. You know? So, he said,
“Go and survey them.” He said, “There is a practice survey, check the survey.” Everything
passed, everything that I did passed. But then, somebody from laboratory administration went to
the dean and, “Find out who this person is.” They didn’t know. Well, I was on my second reader,
and he held the paper, but they didn’t tell me why. They didn’t tell me why they didn’t. So,
before the end—the semester was almost ending, you know. I called them. I did call them
because I wanted to see how I was doing, you know. But he should have given me the reason
why he did that. I could have—I would have went to him right then. So, I called him and he told
me that was the reason and so we started—I went to his office. He called me to his office, and we
talked. He said, “Some—” I said, “You call it unethical research? Why would your professor
advise me to use the assumed name?”
Interviewer: Yeah. (00:34:28)
Veteran: “If I had known that I would have used my name.” So, we got an understanding that it
was…Now, when he asked the professor, he said that I must have heard—he didn’t actually
directly accepted it. But he said he said that I must have advised him to do that, you know. But
you know, so—but at that point, I was already mad.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: So, the dean said, “Well, if you want, you can go ahead and finish it, but you are going
to—you are out of time. You are going to have to start again.” I said, “I am not going to pay you
another money for you to be able to control what I am doing.”
Interviewer: Okay.
�Veteran: I said, “Give me something I can control, and I will do it. Give me maybe two more
courses instead of the thesis. I will go back and finish it. Otherwise, I don’t need that thing.”
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: I already reached what I wanted to do. You know? So, that’s where I left it and I left it
there.
Interviewer: So, you went back to medical technology—
Veteran: I had always been in medical technology. At that point, I was already promoted to
supervisor of the blood bank. You know, I started some of the first stuff here in the city. You
know, like have you ever heard of Doctor Messerschmidt in Oregon? In Washington State? At
the cancer center? He developed a procedure. See, I was doing a job that no medical technologist
was doing. I was the only medical technologist. I had to train some of the other medical
technologists because I wanted the medical technologists to learn it because it could be done by
medical technologists. Usually, it is done by the nurses. And I was the only one that was doing it.
So, I trained some of these people. Well, Messerschmidt came out with this procedure where it
was a column absorption. (00:36:47)
Veteran: It was a column absorption where the—it’s an immunology thing, but the anti—the IgG
are absorbed by the column and the good IgG is then sent back to the patient. It’s a very effective
ITP, you know. And it came to Milwaukee because one of the things that he was selling was it
could cure some of the liver cancers. And I was doing this process—procedure—for the, you
know, I set up the section at the county.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now the main focus of our interview here is really your
military career. We have now kind of—
�Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: --come to the end of that and we see that it has launched you into a career in
medical technology.
Veteran: Yeah, that’s where I ended up.
Interviewer: And that’s the field that you stayed in. Alright. And basically, I’d like—so we
have kind of gotten to where we need to go for the purposes of our project. You have got a
truly remarkable story here. When you think back about the time that you spent in the
Navy…I mean, I guess you have told us a lot about this already, but how would you sum it
up? What do you think you took out of the Navy service or how did it effect you? (00:38:03)
Veteran: I grew up, I think. I think I grew up. I really…I think whatever we have now—we have
a very successful family, I believe. You know? And I have 9 grandchildren, 4 or 5 of them
finished college. One is in a PhD program at the WUM. This one just got his bachelor’s in
biochemistry and is going to be in the Air Force. And I have all the kids finish their college, you
know. So, I got that without the discipline that I learned from the Navy, that…you know, that
wouldn’t be there. I don’t know. Maybe it could have been better because I could have been a
millionaire in the Philippines as a gopher for the politician, you know. You know, I have my
uncle died and left his children, 6 children, a million dollar apiece in cash, plus the properties
that they all own in Manila, you know. And one of them became a billionaire in Manila
[unintelligible]. So, we don’t know, but whatever I have now, you know, is because of the Navy.
Because of the Navy.
Interviewer: Alright. Well, thank you very much for taking the time to share the story
today.
�Veteran: Yeah. And you know, I hope there is something in there that could help maybe the
other veteran that… (00:39:41)
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/841b2544ae8f9d19e09916f8146faf6d.mp3
3bf1cdf3c289b919b64bf256cb7af5db
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-27_NazarioM2333V
Creator
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Nazario, Moises G
Date
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2019-08
Title
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Nazario, Moises (Interview transcript and audio, part 2), 2020
Description
An account of the resource
Moises Nazario finished his tour with his company in Vietnam in July 1967. After helping his captain in the last few months before the captain was to be transferred, Nazario was sent back to the United States in October 1967. He was then transferred to Cherry Point, North Carolina, where he attended medical technology courses at night school. He reenlisted on December 30th, 1967, and was sent to work at the research station in Batista, Maryland in March 1968. That August, Nazario began laboratory tech classes and applied for an intensive medical technology program. He was accepted into the program, passed the exam, and became a registered medical technologist. He then completed his bachelor’s degree in healthcare administration at Southern Illinois University, taking classes at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. He left Camp Lejeune in February 1978 to work at the Milwaukee County Hospital and work toward his master’s degree in hospital administration. However, just when he was about to finish his master’s program, he was accused of unethical research by the dean. Fortunately, he was able to continue his career in medical technology and work as a supervisor at a local blood bank. He believes that the Navy taught him discipline that helped him and his family become successful.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American
Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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Sound
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sound/mp3
application/pdf
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eng
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In Copyright
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c4611680583ee7e7e0714e5f7f120a4a.pdf
63dc17d120ff2bcbd0b12d62309ca012
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Moises Nazario
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interview length: 1:15:18
[Note: The opening section of the recording is conversation preparatory to the start of the
interview, and is not transcribed here, which is why this transcript begins six minutes into the
interview.]
Interviewer: So, you are officially beginning the interview at this point. We are talking
today with Moises Nazario of Milwaukee, Wisconsin. The interviewer is James Smither of
the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. And we are actually at the
2019 Milwaukee Irish Fest. And well, Mr. Nazario, you are not exactly Irish yourself… Tell
us where and when you were born. (00:06:42)
Veteran: I was born in Manila, Philippines, on October 25th, 1936.
Interviewer: Alright. And did you grow up there?
Veteran: I grew up there up to my 21st birthday.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, you were living in the Philippines as a child during World War 2.
Veteran: Yes.
Interviewer: Now, what—
�2
Veteran: I saw that too.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I saw some of it.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, what was your family—what did your family do for a living
when you were a kid?
Veteran: The job descriptions over there is really not commensurate to what we have here. And
my grandmother—my grandfather is a court stenographer. And my grandmother was…she is in a
buy and sell business of jewelry.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And she inherited some money from her parents. She’s pretty well to do.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: At that point, she, you know…And then she had one store, a kiosk store—a clothing
store that they owned. They have a few of them. And that sustained them for whatever…
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, did you live with your grandparents?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I—after I—when I was born, my mother left me with them and took off and, you know,
just…
Interviewer: Yeah. (00:08:16)
�3
Veteran: She was an actress there and she pursue—she left and pursued the acting career, or
whatever it is, you know. And I didn’t meet her until late in life.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Maybe I was already 10-12 years old.
Interviewer: Alright. Okay. Now, so what do you remember about the war starting and the
Japanese coming in?
Veteran: Well, my uncle was in the Bataan Death March. So, they were there. And I didn’t really
know—I think I was… I was 6 years old. I was 6 or 7 years old…
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: …when—1941, so I was 5 years old. And I remember when the Japanese took over. I
remember the air fights, the dog fights. I used to watch them in the street. I would stand there in
the street watching them, just like in the movies. And there was a guy there that—Jonathan
Wainwright was one of the generals that—and I always thought before one of the pilots there
was Jonathan Wainwright. I didn’t know that Wainwright was in Corregidor with MacArthur.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And then there’s a Filipino fighter, William Moore, I think, he was one of the
aces…Filipino aces fighting there. I never saw any plane getting shot down, though.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now do you remember the Japanese coming in and occupying
the city?
Veteran: Yeah. They…It wasn’t really—there was really not…All I remember is they are right in
the city right away. I don’t remember them coming. I don’t—I never saw them come in.
�4
Interviewer: Yeah. Well, there wasn’t any fighting. The Americans had left.
Veteran: Well the city—there was no fighting in the city.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
Veteran: There was no fighting in the city. But the fighting happened in the previous year.
Interviewer: Right. Okay. But now the Japanese have taken over. And now, they rule the
Philippines for the next several years. (00:10:29)
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Do you remember what life was like or was your life effected at all by the
Japanese being there?
Veteran: Not—my family wasn’t really directly affected, other than my uncle with—he was able
to escape the Bataan Death March and came back to the house.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And we took care of him. He had malaria at the time. I remember the Japs as being
cruel. You know? I remember going to the province with my aunt and I was sitting next to my
aunt. One of the Japanese soldiers grabbed me by the arm. This is maybe about ’42, 1942 or ’43.
Grabbed me by the arm and yanked me out of—get out of the seat so he could sit next to my
aunt. You know? And there was a good Japanese officer—looked like a Japanese officer; at the
time, I didn’t really know anything much—a good Japanese officer saw what he did. And this
officer came over to this guy and called the guy and slapped the hell out of this guy. You know,
and he is bowing to the officer. And the officer set me back down with her. But that’s my
exposure to them.
�5
Interviewer: Yeah. So, some of them were—some of them behaved properly and some of
them didn’t.
Veteran: Probably. You know, probably.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: But my exposure showed that, you know. This one time. You know, but the problems,
from what I hear from stories from some of the people we know, they are actually killing people.
Actively killing people.
Interviewer: But within the city, I mean your grandparents could basically go about their
business? Your grandmother could run her kiosks or…? (00:12:18)
Veteran: Well, they didn’t have that kiosk yet at the time.
Interviewer: Okay. Okay.
Veteran: They—she was selling jewelry.
Interviewer: Okay. Okay.
Veteran: Buying and selling jewelry. And that supported us, so we were able to have a fairly
decent meal.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You know, with that…Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright. And then do you remember the Americans coming back?
Veteran: Oh yeah. That was very memorable to me. I remember right in the city where I live,
they were marching in two columns: one of the street—on each side of the street. You know,
�6
they were coming in and initially before this happened, there was a truck loaded with Japanese
and Filipino traitors screaming, “Ha! You guys are going to be under us for more years!” They
said, “They are coming right behind us!” and we got the U.S. troops after that. That truck
disappeared. I never know where it went, you know. But the guys—the U.S. troops—this is in
the afternoon, maybe around 4 o’clock in the afternoon. And when we saw that as a kid—they
were giving out chocolate bars. So, as a kid I run out there, “Victory! Victory! Victory!” You
know, we were really excited, you know. And we followed them all the way to the main street.
Quite a long ways. Probably about 10 blocks away from where I lived. You know, 12 blocks
away. You know? And right around that one area, there’s a hotel where they have a 50-caliber
machine gun, a Japanese setup there, and they started firing. And that—in the meantime, some of
the troops were taking some of the booby traps…Some of the troops were taking some of the
booby traps out on the road. You know? Some of the booby traps on the road. And when they
start firing, the soldiers told us to go back home. You know, they did want us to go back. At that
point, I didn’t know at the time, that they had gone—see, that’s separating the city from the
southern part of Manila. The bridges—all the bridges—
Interviewer: Right. (00:14:47)
Veteran: --they blew away all the bridges. You know, they blew away the bridges and one of my
uncle’s wife’s family lives on that part. And they—because of this war, you know. And they
started this shelling, actually. And where the U.S. setup is maybe about 3 blocks away from
where I was. And you could hear the mortar—the rounds—coming in, you know, just out…So,
we were—they would just watch—we didn’t do anything unusual, we just stayed in the house,
you know. We continued playing in the street during the day, like what a kid does, you know.
Interviewer: So, how long did that shooting last?
�7
Veteran: Quite a while. Quite a while. And by the time it was over, there’s a lot of houses that
were destroyed in that area. And the one that landed right around the city hall—all the really
structured buildings that we had were all destroyed. You know, they were all destroyed. But I
didn’t—you know, being at that age, you know, you don’t really know, pay much attention. But
other than we know they are fighting. The fire fights—when they come back, there’s a lot of dog
fights. A few—once, I was out in this—to this store that sells candies, you know, things like that.
It’s the kind of store that’s all owned by Chinese, you know. And when this shooting started, we
ran out in the street and we saw this—all this thing that really, you know…And one of the 50caliber machine gun bullet landed in our house. My aunt was pregnant. There was—and she
delivered a baby then. It landed around the foot of the bed.
Interviewer: Wow. (00:16:44)
Veteran: Foot of the bed. You know? Yeah, and so, it was…At that point, I think I was maybe 8
years old already. Maybe 8 years old already. So, ’44? Yeah, I was 8 years old already. And that
one, I remember vividly because we named the book, ‘The Child Bombing.’ You know, that
was…He is still alive now. He is in Las Vegas. And we but, here, we didn’t do anything unusual.
We just used to go on with life. You know, if it hits you, it hits you. It doesn’t…
Interviewer: Alright. And then, did things quiet down a little bit after that? What are
you—as you are—now you are growing up and you are getting older…?
Veteran: Oh, the—another thing too, okay, when they came in…See, right where the U.S.
prisoners are held in Santo Tomas, I live close to that.
Interviewer: Okay.
�8
Veteran: I live close to that. Yeah, and around a block—south of—west of that, school—is
another school I went—where I went. You know, and we went to school that the Japanese used
as headquarters. When the fighting start, they were looting in there, you know. And being at that
age that—the concern at that point is the water. So, my first stop when I ran out was to go to that
building and get some of these canteen cans for water. (00:18:27)
Veteran: So, I ran into that school. The school—the building was on fire. I ran to the building.
There is a guy that I know that got killed, that wasn’t able to get out of there. Well, I was able to
get out, but then I got—I think I had almost a burned out movie projector, I had a bunch of
cans…You know? Maybe about 4 cans; 3 or 4 cans out there. And instead of coming back to—
going back to where I came in, I went to the Quezon Boulevard, the main street that is going
north and south. And in there, all the Japanese bodies was in there. And then oh, I will tell you, I
had to jump out of that thing. They scared the heck out of me. You know, all these dead bodies.
That’s one of the exciting things that at that time I remember. After that, you know, when all this
yelling start, everything was fine for what, you know…The water likes to—the water was the
one that…And the U.S. soldiers stationed some water bottles in that area and I was able to use
the can that—after I cleaned it up, I was able to use it.
Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. So now, once the excitement is over, now do you go back to going
to school regularly? Or what happens?
Veteran: Yeah, I went back to school. As a matter of fact, I went back to school and one of the
GI’s dropped a wallet. I don’t know who that GI is, and I never know who it belongs to. And
there’s some money that—really lots of money. Probably at least a couple hundred: $200-$300,
you know? I don’t know how much is in there. And being a young kid, honest young kid, I gave
that wallet to my teacher. After, I say, I didn’t know whatever happened to it, you know. But I
�9
turned it in. I said that somebody dropped this. I said maybe by now who…And I never heard
anything more about that. You know…And I never truly paid much attention to it because it
didn’t matter to me at the time, you know. Yeah, I was able to do what I wanted to do on my
grandma’s money.
Interviewer: Right. (00:20:56)
Veteran: I wasn’t really that concerned about any of that.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, you—not too long after that, the Philippines become
independent. You have your own country and so forth. How did you wind up in the United
States military?
Veteran: Oh, okay. I was in medical school.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I was a first year proper—see, you go to—in the Philippines, you go to undergraduate
school for 3 years.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And then you go to medical school.
Interviewer: So, when did you start medical school?
Veteran: I started in October. It was at the very end. I needed two and a half years of
intermediate to go to medical school. October 1957.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And I left in July of 1958.
�10
Interviewer: Okay. So, you only went for like one year or part of one year?
Veteran: I had one semester. First semester.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright.
Veteran: And I was—I played varsity basketball for the school. I got picked by the coach, but
then after when I got with…I—you know, at that age, at that time, I have a very restless mind.
You know? And I didn’t know what to do. I didn’t—I wanted to play basketball, I wanted to be a
doctor, I wanted…So, I decided well, maybe I will—I wanted to be in the Navy. I started
applying to the Navy actually in 1953, when I was in high school. (00:22:25)
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: But that didn’t—that disappeared from my mind for a while, but then I wanted—after
that, when I was in medical school, I said, “Well, maybe I could go ahead and apply for…”
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, had you gone to college already before medical school?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I had two and a half years of pre-med.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You know?
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: And that’s what I used later on with the Navy.
�11
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: Anyway, some of the people—I was given—they get—university, Southern Illinois
University gave me credit for some of it and finally got—I started college in 1955 and finally got
my bachelor’s in hospital administration in 1978.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. But you went to school in the Philippines first. And so, you did
some pre-med there and then you at least started medical school. So, why did you leave
medical school? Were you just restless?
Veteran: To join the Navy.
Interviewer: Just—okay. Now, so was the United States Navy actively recruiting in the
Philippines?
Veteran: No, they have rumors that they are accepting people that live by that area that they
come to the city in. You know, it’s in the province. It’s only people that live in the province, and
they talk about this. So, while I was going to school, I have some classmates that were from that
area. So, I said, “Well, maybe I’ll write the letter.” So, I wrote the letter in I think maybe around
October of ’57.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And I got the response in December saying that I need to get a physical. Yeah, they
accepted me.
Interviewer: Alright. So, where did you go to get a physical?
Veteran: At the Sangley Point.
Interviewer: Okay. So, there was an American base there?
�12
Veteran: Yeah, that’s where the biggest base that they went…That was the biggest base that
the—Navy base in the Far East.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. I guess the Americans talk about Subic Bay? Is that where—
(00:24:16)
Veteran: What? No—that’s one of them.
Interviewer: Okay. But this was bigger?
Veteran: This—yeah, Subic Bay is the biggest. Sangley Point is more an auxiliary. It’s a dry
dock. They use this at…
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, there’s an American base there so you are able to go there,
you get your physical. Now what happens?
Veteran: When I went there for the—I think sometime in March. I stopped—I didn’t register for
the second semester.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: I didn’t register because I didn’t know whether I was going to be there or not, you
know.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: So, I didn’t register. So, some—March of ’78, I—
Interviewer: Or ’58.
�13
Veteran: Oh, ’58. March of ’58 I went to—for the physical. And they said, “Well, we will let you
know.” You know, I went back home. And not long after that, I got a letter that said you are
accepted to the Navy.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And you have to report July 25th.
Interviewer: Alright, now did they train you in the Philippines? Or did they send you to the
United States for training?
Veteran: They just took us there. They put out—just the busy work type thing. And on August
4th, they got—we were one of the groups that didn’t fly to the U.S. We were put in a—are you
familiar with the U.S. military transportation service? Military MSCs? Are you familiar with it?
It’s a ship like lots of other ships…
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: …that are owned by the Navy that ferry the dependents of soldiers back and forth.
Interviewer: Okay. (00:26:05)
Veteran: To the U.S.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: Now, well—we were the…I don’t know if we were the first group, but we were the
group—one of the group—that boarded that ship from Sandy Point to the U.S. And we were at
sea for 17 days, you know. Now, maybe not 17 days. Almost 4 to 15 days.
Interviewer: Okay.
�14
Veteran: 15 days. We were—but as a recruit, we couldn’t get out of the ship. So, they stopped in
Hawaii, they stopped in Guam; we were stuck in the boat.
Interviewer: Well, they wouldn’t let you off. Okay. Now, was it a good—was the weather
good on the voyage or did you have storms?
Veteran: I got seasick. I got seasick and then I didn’t know at the time that I was seasick. I didn’t
know at the time I was seasick; you know. But the feeling…I was sweating. I was cleaning the
stairwell. “Damn,” I said, you know. And I didn’t find out that I was seasick until I was already
onboard the ship. Years later.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, where did you land in the U.S.?
Veteran: We landed in San Francisco.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: At Fort Mason.
Interviewer: Alright. And then what did they do with you after that?
Veteran: Nothing. We were just in a temporary holding.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And this was 0017 when we landed there. Then we flew out of San Francisco August
21st.
Interviewer: And where did you fly to?
Veteran: To San Diego; that’s where the bootcamp was.
Interviewer: Alright.
�15
Veteran: So, now at bootcamp, we would—we were low priority as a recruit. But the priority of
the other recruits were higher than us because at the time, Great Lakes was closed, the New York
Recruit Center was closed. And the only open training center was San Diego. So, the people
coming from this area were—had the priority with getting into the training right away.
Interviewer: So, you were kind of just waiting to be able to start? (00:28:14)
Veteran: And from August 21st, I didn’t get into a company until September, September 21st;
almost a month.
Interviewer: Okay. So, where—
Veteran: But we were just there doing busywork for that time, you know.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, were you together as a group of Filipinos who were going to
train together? Or were they going to—
Veteran: We…No, they separated all of us.
Interviewer: Okay, so they didn’t—they put you in other companies.
Veteran: Yeah. But there was maybe a couple, 2 or 3, in one company, you know.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: They separated us.
Interviewer: Alright. So, what was bootcamp like for you, once you started the training?
Veteran: I’ll tell you, I wanted to get the shirts. I wanted to get discharged when I was in
bootcamp. I got really—we got into a lot of fights just to get discharged. You know, we’d pick a
fight, so we’d get discharged. But no luck; we didn’t get discharged, you know. So, I figured
�16
damn, I gave up a good life for this? You know. And I finished but see, I don’t know if you are
aware that when the Filipinos are recruited, they are only recruited to be a steward. Are you
aware of that?
Interviewer: I wasn’t. I knew that that was true for a long time with the black sailors and
then that stopped. But yeah, I knew that they did use Filipinos as stewards, but that was
the only job you could have at that time?
Veteran: That’s right.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You know, and when you are in, you can change rate.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: If you are good enough for the—if you have a good officer that will—a more
humanitarian type officer. You know, but then you got some of these officer that thinks that they
own the world, you know, they own you. You know? (00:30:10)
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: And so, I started…I went to steward school, you know. After bootcamp I went to
steward school. And one day they had us fill out a transfer sheet—a drill sheet—there was an
aircraft carrier that’s going to the WESTPAC of the USS Shangri-La. And I put all my requests
on that ship. I wanted to go back there. They sent me to Annapolis, Maryland.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, tell me a little bit about life in bootcamp. I mean, why—what
made bootcamp bad for you?
�17
Veteran: The discipline. Discipline. See, I was never really big on discipline, you know. I
became a little bit disciplinarian, you know, maybe because of what I learned. You know?
Interviewer: But I guess you grew up kind of on your own?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: You were just kind of out in the streets doing what you wanted.
Veteran: I actually…Yeah, because I never worked while I was back home. I never really…I
was, you know, in school. But see now one of the reasons I stayed in school is because…I still
stayed in school because my grandparents supported me. They gave me—they allow me to—
anything that I need. And maybe some once, you know…
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And if I leave school, I don’t know what they would have done.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, were you able to do all the physical stuff? The physical
training and those things?
Veteran: Oh yeah. There’s no problem there. You know, we are, you know, we are really
good…As a matter of fact, our company won some competitions that we were sent on a—
whoever win that week, they go on a picnic, you know? And that—we went maybe 3 or 4 times.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, talk a little bit about the steward school. What did you actually
learn in steward school? (00:32:15)
Veteran: Are you familiar with what the waiters do?
Interviewer: You should explain that because a lot of people might not have any idea.
�18
Veteran: Okay. Yeah. Well, the steward school was geared to train the Filipinos to serve with
high level people. It’s not just being a steward: everything that you do is by the book. You know,
like you pass your meat on the left, put your plate on the right. All this. You set all of the—they
teach you how to cook, just in case you have to cook for the officers. And mostly cooking and
serving, you know.
Interviewer: Okay. And how long did you spend in the steward school?
Veteran: Steward school? I don’t…I am not sure now. I don’t know if it’s…Of course, I got
transferred. I started in November and I got transferred in December. So, maybe about 6—4 to 6
weeks, maybe.
Interviewer: Okay. So not too long. Alright.
Veteran: Not too long.
Interviewer: And then you got transferred?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: So where—what did you get transferred to?
Veteran: To a Naval Academy as a steward.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Have you ever seen the Naval Academy mess hall?
Interviewer: No.
Veteran: They seat about 5000 people.
Interviewer: Wow.
�19
Veteran: You’ve got all these Filipino stewards serving all of these midshipmen.
Interviewer: Alright. So, how long did you do that?
Veteran: Oh…From January ’59 to January ’61.
Interviewer: Okay, so 2 years.
Veteran: And I was transferred to a ship by that time.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, when you were working at the Naval Academy, were you living
on the base? (00:34:15)
Veteran: No. I—well, I lived at the APL. There’s a—we don’t have a barracks there. They have
a floating ship. I live on the APL.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You know, I live on the APL.
Interviewer: Onboard a ship.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright. And did they have all of the stewards living together?
Veteran: Oh yeah. Yeah. That thing is really something else. That ship doesn’t have an engine.
It’s a floating barracks. It’s a floating barracks, you know. Just a…
Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. Now, and do you have any particular memories of what it was
like to work at the Naval Academy? When you think of that time, what do you think
about?
�20
Veteran: Oh, the Naval Academy is probably…I would have liked to have seen one of my kids
or even my grandkids—he almost went, you know, went there. I would have liked—I liked the
academy. I liked the way the midshipmen live, you know, the way they were…It’s hard life.
Okay? It’s a hard life, but it’s not all work. There’s lots of fun times at the…it’s really…I don’t
know how to explain it, but it’s really good.
Interviewer: Alright. So, were you treated well by the petty officers?
Veteran: No. No. No, they are not—well, they…I used to get in trouble almost every day
because of that, you know. I had some guys, you know, remember now coming off the 2nd World
War, okay? Some of these people couldn’t even read and write. And some of these are your boss.
What do you expect from those kind of people?
Interviewer: So, some of the petty officers in the Navy who were supervising you were like
that?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: And I was always in trouble almost every day. I was almost—I went extra duties.
Scrubbing all of that wall, all of the marks out of the wall every day. You know? And but I still
wanted to get out at the time, you know. But then, you know, you do something stupid, you
know. You do something stupid here, they keep me in longer.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, you—but you do that for 2 years, and now you are
transferred to a ship. (00:36:37)
�21
Veteran: Now I got transferred in January. I went to the commissioning school at Rhode Island
because the ship was a brand-new ship.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: So, they had to send you all to learn all of this thing. And we…I was in Rhode Island
from January until June maybe?
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And we went aboard the ship.
Interviewer: And what ship was this?
Veteran: USS Sampson, DDG-10. A guided missile destroyer.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: The ship, it’s new at that time. I don’t think they ever—it took them a long time to get it
really working. And it was funny: when we were moving our training group in Cuba when we
were doing the briefing…You know, they fire all these missiles. They got the pre-training people
observers. And part of the missile comes back to the ship. It really is funny. You know, and
but…it ended well. We had a…we had some officers that—well, I was okay, fine, with the
officers that we had there. And it was, you know…That’s where the—I started working on trying
to get out of the stewardry because at that point, I said, “I really don’t want to be a steward.” You
know?
Interviewer: Right. And did any—were any of the officers on that destroyer?
Veteran: Not one. Not on that one, no. But it wasn’t long I was there before it was, after it was
commissioned, because I went back on release with leave in ’62, in June of ’62. So, it—before
�22
June that it was commissioned. Or immediately. And I got to—when I went to the Philippines,
when I came back, I went back to Boston. We were in Boston at the time.
Interviewer: Right. (00:38:47)
Veteran: I went back to Boston and they put me on the USS Johnston. It’s the DD-821.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, was that just a regular destroyer or…?
Veteran: Yeah, regular destroyer.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: An older destroyer, 821. And that’s where I started to get, you know…When I got back,
we were drinking and all these things you know. Some of the officers are just a redneck, you
know. Just really really…you know. And we were—the ship was on leave of FRAM job. Have
you ever heard of the term FRAM? It’s Fleet Rehabilitation and Modernization program.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: They—so, we were living in a barracks there because we worked on the ships during
the day, taking all the asbestos thing out and replacing it with, I don’t know, whatever they
replace it with.
Interviewer: Okay. And where were you based? Was this in Boston or somewhere else?
Veteran: In Boston.
Interviewer: Still in Boston, okay.
�23
Veteran: Boston. And we were there…oh, from the time I came there in June or July. I was in the
Philippines for a month. July to maybe sometime in October. Because we pull out to go on the
Cuban Missile Crisis blockade.
Interviewer: Okay. (00:40:15)
Veteran: That’s where we pulled out of. But in the meantime, I was in trouble there. I was
AWOL when the people pulled out. I was AWOL for 4 days, you know, and…But I had no
intention of leaving. I wasn’t—I know I had a pending court martial. If I go back, they will—I
know I will be disciplined. Not the court marital—Captain’s Mast.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: It’s just a minor thing at the time.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: You know, and if I go back, I know that I was going to be disciplined, so I decided I
will stay 4 days before we leave. I will stay out, you know, and then go back with all my
belongings at that time, because we weren’t going to end up going back to Boston. We were
going to Charleston for after—from there—from Charleston to Cuba. You know, it’s October
now.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you—the idea is you get back on the ship and they don’t have time
to deal with you, so you just get back onboard and sail with them?
Veteran: Oh, which one?
Interviewer: Well, you said you had talked—you went AWOL. You stayed off the ship for
a while.
�24
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: So, was that to avoid punishment?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Yeah, because I knew—I figured I was going to be punished. And I figured if I go back
and they put me under citation, we will be at sea. So, I won’t be under—able to get—
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Anyway, but that trouble just keep going, following me wherever at that point, you
know. And everywhere. And when we went to Cuba, by the time we got to Cuba—see the
blockade started October…25th, I think. But we were in Charleston with them still not
sure…Maybe they are not sure about the fitness of the ship at the time because we just got out of
the yards. (00:42:10)
Interviewer: Right. Okay.
Veteran: So, when they finally decided, we went there…I don’t know, a couple of days to get
there. It was December 6th when we got to Cuba, and we started the blockade at that point. And
not long after that, that’s when they boarded the Russian trawlers, not long after that. Not our
ship, but we ended up…we ended up saving a Puerto Rican refrigeration ship. That one, we
were…all of us couldn’t even go in our bunk. But then—we were not allowed to stay in our bed
because we were trying to get all the water out of that ship. We were sleeping on the deck, you
know. And if we are not there, we go down to the battle station, you know. So, we couldn’t
sleep. And it was really rough. It was hard. It was really hard.
�25
Interviewer: Okay. You have met now the peak of the Cuban Missile Crisis. It’s October
1962. That’s when the final—the sort of the showdown happens and they…
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: And it ends. But it was building up a long time before that.
Veteran: Oh yeah. I didn’t know—I was unaware of that until Kennedy went on TV.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And I was able at that time—when that television thing came out.
Interviewer: Now, you said…So, basically, you are down there after that. Or were you—
Veteran: No, I was still in Boston. We were still in Boston.
Interviewer: Well, there was a lot of back and forth about what the Russians were doing in
Cuba. And we were sending ships down to a blockade before October. So…
Veteran: The whole flotilla went in there.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Around…in October. And our group joined this flotilla in December.
Interviewer: Okay. But there was still a blockade going on around Cuba at that time?
Veteran: Oh, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, you told me before we started the interview that you thought that
your service during the Cuban Missile Crisis, or that period, was sort of the scariest that
you have had. (00:44:23)
�26
Veteran: Oh, yeah.
Interviewer: Why was it scary?
Veteran: Well, it…if it went down, none of us would be talking today. And every—sailorsthat
were there, I bet you, you know, feel the same way.
Interviewer: So, you were worried this might really be World War 3, or something like
that?
Veteran: Yeah…
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, by this time—at what point are you able to get out of
being a steward?
Veteran: Sure. Okay. When we came back from Cuba…When we came back from Cuba, I had a
gallon of different style type of whiskey. And at night, one of the—first night, I think I finished
one of that whiskey. And the chopper took me back to the ship. And this officer—he threatened
me, you know. And I got—in the meantime, I was getting mad. I was getting really mad.
Eventually, I hit the guy. I hit the—after I chased him all over the ship. He went down to the
engine room to get away from me. I hit the guy, you know, after the incident. And that one, I
went to court martial. I was court martialed. They sent me to the brig for 20 days.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And so, that’s when I—when I went in there, I said, “I don’t want to be a steward
anymore. Either you discharge me now,” I said, “or you change rate.” And the XO—he’s from
Milwaukee or used to be from Milwaukee…He used to see me almost every day in front of him
for a hearing, you know. He came to me; I said—I came to him and I said, “I want to be a
�27
hospital corpsman.” I said, “If I can’t be a hospital corpsman, then give me a BCD, whatever.” I
said, “Send me back home.” (00:46:33)
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Okay, so you say this and what kind of response did you get?
Veteran: He said, “Okay.” He said, “I will give you 6 months. If I don’t see you in front of me
for the next 6 months,” he said, “I will write to the bureau.” Six months? Boy, that’s a long time,
you know. I said, “Okay. You’ve got a deal.” So, we went to the Med that August, you know.
Interviewer: To the Mediterranean?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yep.
Veteran: We went on a Med cruise. And wow, I was really…Even then, you know, almost had
that—seen him, you know. But we went to the Med and I was clean all that time I was in the
Med.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I…comes—it was a—I don’t remember. It was 6 months later. It was October. The 6
months was October. So, I went to him. I said, “You know, the 6 months is up.” I said, “I have
been good to you.” I said, “You promised to write the bureau.” He said, “Oh yeah, I did.” And
so, he called the yeoman and the yeoman sent a letter. And the approval came in December.
Came and said that I was going to corps school in February or March of ’63.
Interviewer: Okay. And so, where was corps school? (00:48:09)
Veteran: At Great Lakes.
�28
Interviewer: Okay. So, now you go to Great Lakes, Illinois. Alright. And what was corps
school like? What did you learn there?
Veteran: A lot. A lot. Things that I, you know, that I never…See, when I was going to school, I
was a goofball. I was already skipping classes and all that thing. So, I did really—I hate reading,
for one thing. I hate to read. And I read more books than I had ever seen. I read in school in the
Philippines and I went to—when I changed rate. And I learned first aid, anatomy and physiology.
I had a good review of nephrology. And the math, you know. Things like that. And I did learn a
lot in the school.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, you were able to get through that training course?
Veteran: I…Yeah, I finished 3rd in the class of 39 or something.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And I was promoted right from school to 3rd class.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright.
Veteran: So, I…I got stationed at Great Lakes for the hospital.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: It was my best duty station in all my time in the service.
Interviewer: Alright. So, what were you doing at that assignment?
Veteran: Initially, I was like an LPN only better than an LPN. We have more training. The only
thing I can’t do—I was doing all the job of the RN—and the only thing I can’t do is to pass
�29
narcotics. And as far as knowledge, I think our knowledge—the RN’s knowledge and a hospital
corpsman’s knowledge almost on par.
Interviewer: Okay. (00:50:11)
Veteran: Depending on the person, though, okay. If a person is really dedicated to what he is
doing and decides to pursue really more…he can be farther than an RN. You know? And as a
matter of fact, some of the RNs—corpsmen became an RN, you know. And some of the
corpsman—the first PA that…You know about PA, right?
Interviewer: Are we talking about—
Veteran: Physician assistant?
Interviewer: Yes.
Veteran: The first 6 were the corpsmen. That started at Duke.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. So, you are getting a pretty good medical training there at this
point.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, how long did you stay at Great Lakes?
Veteran: Well, I was at Great Lakes from ’63…I graduated in July of ’63. That’s schooling.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: I graduated July of ’63 and got stationed at the hospital. Then I went to lab assistant
school and they transferred me to building 109. This is still at Great Lakes. I don’t remember the
month now.
�30
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: But then in June of ’63…Oh, not ’63. June of ‘’65.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I was out in ’65.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: In June of ’65…Maybe I bet you…They send me to—I was…Yeah, that’s right. June
of ‘65 I went to lab assistant school. And then right after that—this is about 8 weeks course—I
went to the building 109 as a lab assistant, doing regular laboratory work, you know.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You know, and from there I ran into another SOB, an officer, but I didn’t rebel against
this guy. Eventually, I would have—I rebelled against this guy because, at the time, when he
decided…Oh no, the Navy had me to stay ashore until ’66. You know? But this guy decided
well, you’re not a Marine force corpsman, so you’re going to go to school in the Marine force.
So, they send me to Camp Lejeune to train as an emergency medical technician. Like I knew
better than an emergency medical technician—
Interviewer: Okay. (00:52:52)
Veteran: You know.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You know, they send me there out on temporary provisional duty. Then I came back to
work in the lab again.
�31
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: But I know it was a matter of time before they were sending me to Vietnam.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: At the time, she was expecting our oldest son.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And I asked him if I could go on leave if she delivers. And he said I had to take this guy
to request a Captain’s Mast—to take this guy to see the captain. And they again, you know, they
allowed me to go see—the chief called me, and he said, “If your wife delivers, give me a call, let
me know.”
Interviewer: Alright. So, when you went to Camp Lejeune, were you doing what was
basically combat training? Or combat medic training?
Veteran: They have a 50-caliber set on the ground and you are crawling underneath electric live
round. That’s how you train.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, did they also give you a lot of physical training there? Did you
have to be basically—you have to be like a Marine?
Veteran: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I got to—I have a Marine uniform. See, a back up Marine
uniform. I have a Navy uniform too. I have 2 or 3.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, how—now you were getting close to 30 years old at this point.
Veteran: I was 30 years old.
Interviewer: Yeah.
�32
Veteran: When I went to Vietnam, I was 30 years old. I made—no, I was 29. I swear I turned 30
right at Hill 400, starving to death.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: If we were not resupplied.
Interviewer: So, at this point, were you older than most of the corpsmen getting sent to
Vietnam? (00:54:27)
Veteran: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, along the way, I mean at least among your…I guess, among
your corpsmen, once you are at Great Lakes and you are working there and training there,
now you are out at Camp Lejeune. Did people give you trouble because you were Filipino?
Or did they accept you?
Veteran: No. No, because I—you know, like I say, I was a rebel and all that. And I—if you fight
them back, they leave you alone.
Interviewer: Okay, so they respect you.
Veteran: Yeah. You know, they leave you alone most of what—yeah, I probably am one of the
few Filipinos that you’ll hear that never gave any discrimination. Because I don’t—I never felt
that I was discriminated by anyone. Aboard the ship, maybe. During the time that I was trying to
become a corpsman.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: I asked a chaplain to help me. Okay…He talked to the executive officer. The executive
officer I think was from Tennessee or somewhere in the south. Georgia? And the response he got
�33
from that— “Oh no, I can’t let him go. Nobody is going to cook for us. Nobody is going to serve
us.”
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: You know? But I didn’t even think that as discrimination at this point, because he’s got
a point. That was, I—that was what I was sent there for.
Interviewer: Right. Okay. Alright. But in the meantime, now you have trained. Now, were
there—was the training that you got at Camp Lejeune, did that turn out to be useful for
you?
Veteran: In medicine, yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. But at Camp Lejeune, you were—
Veteran: In the—in Vietnam, yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: Alright. So, you do the training, you go back to Great Lakes again, and then
you get orders for Vietnam after that? (00:56:13)
Veteran: Yeah. I went to Vietnam in October 6th. I got there…
Interviewer: Okay. Now how did they get you to Vietnam?
Veteran: By plane. They took us with a plane—on a plane.
Interviewer: Okay.
�34
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Now, was it a military plane or a chartered civilian plane? Were there regular
seats and stuff in it?
Veteran: From Travis Air Force Base, we were on a civilian plane.
Interviewer: Yep.
Veteran: And then from Okinawa to Vietnam, we were on a C-130? I think a C-130.
Interviewer: Okay. And where did you land in Vietnam?
Veteran: In Da Nang.
Interviewer: Okay, you landed in Da Nang. And what’s your first impression of Vietnam
when you get there?
Veteran: I was afraid. I was in—I was in—that’s one of my conclusions too: people—the
corpsmen that got killed there most of the time just got there. And that…When you are afraid,
you are not able to think right. Okay, or if you are excited, you are not able to think right either.
You know? And when I—the first time I was on a battle sweep on the Ho Chi Minh Trail.
Interviewer: Okay. But let’s—before we get into that story…Okay, you arrive at Da Nang
and then what did they do with you once you get there?
Veteran: They assign me to the battalion.
Interviewer: Okay, and what battalion do they assign you to?
Veteran: 2nd Battalion, 9th Marines.
Interviewer: Okay. 2nd Battalion, 9th Marines. Now that—the 3rd Marine Division?
�35
Veteran: The 3rd Marine Division.
Interviewer: Alright. And where was that battalion operating from?
Veteran: In I Corps.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: That’s up north.
Interviewer: Yeah, the northern part of South Vietnam. Were you near any particular
towns or bases that were—
Veteran: Yeah, we were at…We were at Dong Ha.
Interviewer: Dong Ha. Okay.
Veteran: Dong Ha. We were at Dong Ha. And that’s where the—no, wait a minute…It was—we
went to Dong Ha. No, maybe we were in—I don’t know? Maybe we were in Phu Bai because
when—as soon as I get assigned with 2-9, they went on a sweep right away.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so they are going on a sweep and you are going along with
them. Now, what was your job with that battalion? Were you in the battalion aid station?
(00:58:27)
Veteran: I was at the battalion aid station. I was a general corpsman.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You know…
Interviewer: Alright. And you say the battalion goes on a sweep. What was a sweep?
�36
Veteran: Hmm?
Interviewer: Explain what a sweep was.
Veteran: A sweep is—you go out on patrol where you expected the enemies to be. And you
counted them. That’s how all those—have you ever heard of Operation Prairie?
Interviewer: Mhmm.
Veteran: I was out—we caught the tail end of Operation Prairie. But they were starting there
already at the time. Well, that’s how they find that: on a sweep. The recon company—the recon
squad—found that on a reconnaissance. And then they send somebody to sweep that area to look
around and found that unit, that…
Interviewer: Right. I guess usually they try to have the companies work together to push
the enemy together and capture them.
Veteran: Yeah. The whole company is spread out. You know, if you—I don’t know if you are
familiar, you know, the instructions to us is you are supposed to spread out 15 meters apart on a
sweep.
Interviewer: Yep.
Veteran: Okay, and so you figure—picture it in your mind: a whole hun—let’s see…We have 1
company. We have over 1000 people in the battalion.
Interviewer: Battalion, yep.
Veteran: Picture that in your mind: 1000 people at 15 meters apart. That’s a long…Probably all
the way to Chicago.
�37
Interviewer: Well, they are not all in one line. Some of them are in the back. There’s some
people in reserve or support, but yeah. But it’s still a long—a long line of men.
Veteran: Right. By the 4th platoon in that, you know…
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. So, you have got a hundred and some men maybe in the company
and there are only— (01:00:12)
Veteran: 200 maybe?
Interviewer: Yep. Sometimes. A lot of times companies were smaller. But anyway, you are
out there, you are in the field. So, did anything happen during that sweep? Did...
Veteran: We got ambushed the first time.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You know, at the Ho Chi Minh Trail. And I didn’t see the fighting. I was initially—we
don’t really go into any until somebody call for corpsman.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: You know. And we took—6 of the Marines were killed right way. And I was sitting
down at the bottom of this hill with—next to the chaplain. And I woke up in the morning to this
Marine cutting the head of this Vietnamese that they killed. They are cutting the head, you know.
And that—after they cut the head, they took the head out and put it in the bamboo stake on the
bridge.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: You know, and it’s gross.
�38
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: It’s gross. So, yeah…
Interviewer: How quickly did you start treating casualties?
Veteran: Hmm?
Interviewer: Were you treating casualties right away?
Veteran: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: Yep.
Veteran: As soon as they called in, you know, we would take them out. If they were dead, you
know, we helped bag them. You know? But if they are still alive, then we—whatever injury they
have, we have to take care. The first thing, the important thing, is stop the bleeding is the main
thing.
Interviewer: Right. Okay. But you are at this point, you are working at the aid station, so
the casualties are coming to you?
Veteran: Well, no, we—the company is a battalion, so on a sweep all the battalion, all of the
men, are out there.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: So, we are out along with them.
Interviewer: You are out there with them? Okay. And were you divided up among the
companies to support all of them? (01:02:06)
�39
Veteran: Well, the companies are assigned 2 per platoon, so you got, you know, 6 different
corpsmen, 2 per platoon. They were—those are the ones that are actually right at the fight, you
know. Now, the battalion aid travels with the colonel.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: I traveled with the colonel.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: So, whatever it—that could be the same—the admin group get hit, we are the one that’s
going to be taking care of it.
Interviewer: Right. That’s kind of what I was asking. So, you are sort of staying with—you
are at the battalion aid station to begin with, so you kind of follow the colonel when they
move the headquarters, so you are not up at the very front.
Veteran: No.
Interviewer: At that point.
Veteran: No, we are not at the front. We are not in the front.
Interviewer: Alright. Now how long did you stay with the battalion aid station?
Veteran: I was to go—supposed to go—to relieve some corpsman. I was second class at the time.
And as a second class, your assignments are senior corpsman, in charge of the other 6.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And I was supposed to relieve a second class…either middle of January or February.
But I ended up taking the company ahead, you know. Before that—okay, on that sweep that
�40
we…I was so scared. At the time, I will tell you, I was really scared. And I was seeing ghosts. I
was seeing monster coming out of the mountain, you know. This really scared me. Well, after we
got back to the rear—this was in October, okay. I wrote a letter to the Bureau of Naval
Personnel. I wanted out of there because you have no business sending me here. I am the sole
surviving son of my father, I said. They already have that law.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yep. (01:04:22)
Veteran: I said, “I want to get out of here. I want to come back.” Okay, in the meantime, life
goes on. I have to do whatever I was assigned to do, okay, as I am doing that. And I kind of got
adjusted to it.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: You know, I got used to the idea of being there. The response from the Bureau came in
December. By that time, I said, “I don’t want to go back anymore.” You know? Because at that
point, the chief called me. He said, “You want to go back? Think it over,” he said, “because if
you want to stay in the service, they may not let you stay here anymore.” You know. But then I
started thinking. I said, “You know, if I go out, I am chicken. You know, I don’t know if I can
live with myself doing that.” You know? It’s not a matter of staying in this military, you know,
it’s just myself, my personal…I said, “A coward, you know? If I left.” I said, “No, I don’t think I
want to have that on my mind.”
Interviewer: Alright. Okay.
Veteran: So, I turned it down. I turned it down. I said, “No, I am not going back.” And instead,
one of the guys that came to me was offering me $150 to take the company because he was
getting scared too. He was getting scared. And at the time there, he’s got a family problem in the
�41
states. His house burned down in Norfolk. And so, he got to see the spine. And those are the
guys that get killed. And I feel sorry for the guy. He was giving me $150 to take his company
area.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so now—
Veteran: So, I said, “I don’t need your money.” I said, “I will take your company.” This
happened in January already. “I’ll take your company.” No, the 1st of January…
Interviewer: Okay. (01:06:12)
Veteran: I do. I did, I took the company at the 1st of January.
Interviewer: Alright. And so, you are there with that company then.
Veteran: That whole company too.
Interviewer: Until October of ’67, when you go—
Veteran: Until…Not October. Until 6 month, July? July maybe. Late July.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. But now you are—you have got to this time. There are 6
months sort of in the field with a line company. And what was that job like? What were
you doing during those 6 months?
Veteran: That’s where I patched a whole bunch of guys that they were—wherever they got. I had
to make—I had to—it was up to me to make the decision to medevac. I have to make that
decision. Like, we got ambushed. Two of the guys got hit. We have to be at a certain point at
noon. And on top of that, what time it was…and we were really pushed for time. The captain
asked me—he said, “Doc,” he said, “take a look at this guy to know if we need to medevac
them.” But we have to be at this point. We don’t—I don’t know where they are going to assign
�42
us. This time, this one we know got to be there as a perimeter guard. You know, and so, I went in
there, look at the guys. The guy’s got a leg wound, and the other was an arm wound. But it’s not
critical. And I didn’t want them to carry any—I didn’t want them to carry any backpack or
anything. I want them a walking stick. Based on what I know at the time, a walking stick would
help them ambulate back.
Interviewer: Right. (01:08:04)
Veteran: So, I told the captain, I said, “Give me a fire team. Go ahead and go. I will stay with the
guys, just the two guys, and we will be behind. So, that’s 4 of us going into this…” You know,
and the captain said, “Okay. You have got the Marines that can carry their backpack.” And I got
the 4 guys and the 2 wounded and myself. So, it’s a long walk; really long. But I didn’t know
how far we were at the time. And they got to that point. They made their appointment there.
Their…Oh, whatever I was looking for. They got their appointment there that…
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: So, by the time I got…We were so far away. We were so far away that they had to send
a Jeep. They had to send a Jeep to pick us up. So, I got ready. I got a ride on the Jeep to go back.
Interviewer: Alright. Well, at least there was enough of a road or a trail that you could take
a Jeep down it.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright.
�43
Veteran: And we got…As it turned out, it was a good decision that I made because had we
missed that appointment, we would have been sent to Hill 881 and 882. That’s one of the big
fights.
Interviewer: Okay. And those are the ones—
Veteran: That we—2 corpsmen got killed in there.
Interviewer: Was that near Khe Sanh? Was that the…
Veteran: Which one?
Interviewer: Was that near Khe Sanh? Those hills.
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: You said Khe Sanh. We were at Khe Sanh at the time.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: We were at Khe Sanh; 881 and 882. And because of the decision that I made, we were
able to be—the captain would have sent us there. And we would have missed it.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Because at that day, I am the only one that’s available. They sent out Echo Company to
that place.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, your battalion was the one—was at Khe Sanh in late 19—
(01:10:15)
�44
Veteran: They were in—I think—
Interviewer: In the middle of ’67?
Veteran: That was in ’67.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: I think…I think the battalion was…maybe we were in Phu Bai already. We were in Phu
Bai already. The battalion was in Phu Bai and we were spread out with the going around.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And we were going—that was where the sweep come in. We were going on a sweep
every day. We were going on a sweep.
Interviewer: Alright. And what kinds of casualties were you taking in this period? Were
you losing a lot of men?
Veteran: No. No, we were just sporadic fire. You know, an ambush here and there. And there are
times that I was at the ambush. That’s why I couldn’t rest because I was so tired at the, you
know… And I—there was a—one area where we were ambushed. And the call got up all the
way to me. Normally, that doesn’t—that’s not supposed to happen. The corpsmen in the front are
the ones. But the corpsmen in the front got scared. They didn’t run to the casualty. So, I ended up
doing the—it was an arm wound and a neck wound. But I stopped the bleeding and, you know,
had…When I came back, I talked to the 2 guys. They were scared. They were young kids, 18year-old kids. And the captain was really mad. You know, the captain was really mad. I said,
“No,” I said, “don’t.” He wanted me to punish these guys. “No,” I said. “Don’t. It’s—no big deal
happened so,” I said, “we are lucky that nothing happened.”
�45
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Nothing happened. I said, “Let go.” I said, “I’ll talk to them and make sure this doesn’t
happen again.” And let me tell you, they turned out to be two of the best corpsmen that I had in
that company later on as they learned. But one of the ambush that we had, that we got—one of
the corpsman was so scared, he and another guy—when I called for a medevac—they jump on
the chopper with the casualties.
Interviewer: Yeah. (01:12:25)
Veteran: And you know what I did to those two guys?
Interviewer: What?
Veteran: When they came back, I sent them all out on all the patrols that this platoon was—I sent
them all out. You should—I told them, I said, “You exposed those people to additional danger
that they should not have. You go in there and take your chances.”
Interviewer: Alright. And now, over the course of the time that you spent with that
company, did you have any close calls yourself? I mean, did you get hit or nearly so?
Veteran: Well, we were at Gio Linh, right at the Freedom Bridge. This is sort of North Vietnam.
A rocket was—I don’t know, maybe it was just a mortar. It landed right around our bunker. And
when we jumped into the bunker, I got hit on the knee with the shrapnel. I got hit on the knee.
The other two corpsmen got there ahead of me. They were faster than I am. I got hit on the knee.
And…You know, they stitch—I went to the BAS, at the battalion aid station and the corpsmen
over there stitched me up. Eight stitches on my knee. It was sent in report to Washington. That’s
how I got the Purple Heart. I didn’t even want that Purple Heart at the time because I don’t
�46
need—I didn’t get hurt bad, you know. That’s just nothing—that’s nothing, you know? But
because I did—because of their reporting, Washington was obligated to...
Interviewer: Yep. (01:14:01)
Veteran: You know? This captain that I was with—okay, I will get to that. Along this—while I
was in this company, we hit a battalion base camp of the North Vietnamese. Is that where it was?
I don’t remember where it was. It was pretty close to where the [untelligible] where our—right
around that area. Because we went over there too to that area. And there were North Vietnamese
in there, but we didn’t see any of them. But they were laying mines all over the place. We took—
I took maybe 21, 22, casualties and maybe ours were 22. Maybe I patch about 8 of them, you
know. The leg wound, you know.
Interviewer: Is that all from mines?
Veteran: All the mines. You know, some—not really that bad. But I was running all over that
field, not knowing—I wasn’t even thinking about the mine. I wasn’t even thinking about the
mine, I was just thinking of the patient, you know. I was just thinking of the patient that was
laying in there. And when we get back to our base camp, you know, where we were staying,
after—by the time, that time, we called in the tanks to, you know, they—we got there in the
morning and we left around at night. You know, we left right—and when we got back to the base
the following day, the captain wanted to put me up for Bronze Star. And I said, “No. I don’t
know, I don’t want the Bronze Star.” I said, “I didn’t get hurt. I did my job; that’s my job that I
was trained to do.”
Interviewer: Alright. Now, I need to take a break for just a moment. I will be right back.
(01:15:55)
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8e696c7bbedbf0e099a8d064c93c7b27.mp3
27d9df77e24d246a5d95ad0b802abaa2
Dublin Core
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Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-27_NazarioM2333V
Creator
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Nazario, Moises G
Date
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2019-08
Title
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Nazario, Moises (Interview transcript and audio, part 1), 2019
Description
An account of the resource
Moises Nazario was born in Manila, Philippines, on October 25th, 1936. He recalls his uncle fighting in World War II when he was as young as five years old, and he remembers when Manila was occupied by Japan. Once the Philippines gained independence, Nazario attended college and medical school before enlisting in the Navy in early 1958. He got his physical at an American base in the Philippines, Sangley Point, and was accepted a few months later after which he was shipped from Sandy Point to Fort Mason, San Francisco. In August 1958, he flew out of San Francisco to San Diego for basic training. He was assigned to a company in September. After basic training, he attended steward school where he was trained to cook and serve before being transferred to Naval Academy as a steward. He served as a steward from 1959 to 1961. After that, Nazario was transferred to the USS Sampson and attended commissioning school in Rhode Island. After five months on the USS Sampson, he went back to the Philippines on leave before going to Boston where he assigned to the USS Johnston. While on the USS Sampson, he traveled to Charleston and then Cuba for the Cuban Missile Crisis blockade in December 1962. After a Mediterranean cruise, he was sent to Great Lakes, Illinois for corps school. In July 1963, he graduated corps school and was stationed at the hospital in Great Lakes. In June 1965, Nazario was sent to lab assistant school, and he worked as a lab assistant in Great Lakes after finishing the 8-week course. After that, he was sent to Camp Lejeune to train as an emergency medical technician. After a brief return to the lab in Great Lakes, Nazario was flown to Vietnam in October 1966, landing in Da Nang. There, he was assigned to the 2nd Battalion, 9th Marines, 3rd Marine Division and served as a general corpsman at the battalion aid station. His battalion went on a “sweep,” or patrol to look for enemies, and it was his job to take care of casualties in the field. Nazario himself was injured when he got hit on the knee with shrapnel and got eight stitches on his knee at the battalion aid station.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American
Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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audio/mp3
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In Copyright
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e7f44ec977048fb668b2003ec615e376.mp4
6acb643cc6ada924a414eddadf96f089
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e972b3adb1cd5be457d83c410d38c494.pdf
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PDF Text
Text
Christl, Roland
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: World War II
Interviewee’s Name: Roland Christl
Length of Interview: (52:07)
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman
Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Roland Christl of Richmond, Michigan and the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History
Project. Okay now start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where
and when were you born?”
October 29th, 1924 Berrien Springs in the farm house that I stayed in till I retired.
Interviewer: “Alright and– Now born in the 1920s and of course the depression starts not
too long afterwards, did your family own that farm?” (00:39)
Yes.
Interviewer: “Okay and you’re able to keep it through the depression?”
Oh yes, well that’s your livelihood you can raise about anything you need besides salt and
pepper.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you didn’t have– Some people got foreclosed on and that kind of
thing but you kind of made it through. How many children were in your family?”
There was four of us.
Interviewer: “And where were you in line?”
�Christl, Roland
I was the last born.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright and how long did you go to school?”
I went through high school and graduated.
Interviewer: “Okay, and when did you graduate from high school?”
1943.
Interviewer: “Okay, now do you remember how you heard about Pearl Harbor?”
I didn’t know anything about Pearl Harbor, you know as a kid “What’s Pearl Harbor?” You
know, is it a harbor of the United States? You know I had no idea where Pearl Harbor was.
Interviewer: “Okay, but do you remember how you first heard the news? Okay, at what
point did you understand what it meant, a couple days later?” (1:50)
Sure, after you find out where Pearl Harbor was and what really actually happened.
Interviewer: “Okay, now when the war started did things change at all in your community
or with the people you knew?”
Well nothing that I know of because I’m like 15 years old, you know and you’re more interested
in what you’re doing than what the country’s doing really I think.
Interviewer: “Okay, now I mean did you have a radio, could you listen to news and
things?”
Oh sure we had a radio.
�Christl, Roland
Interviewer: “Now did you consider– Did you know a lot of people who started to enlist in
the military or get drafted?”
Well sure, most of the people that went to school see we had 35 in our class so you know
everybody pretty well, even in the other classes. Our neighbors, you know they had, oh I don’t
know, four or five boys I think, four of them went into the Air Force and learned how to fly. So
we knew all that.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you have rationing?”
Sure we had rationing and things on the farm, you know you have your own butter, my mother
used to make butter and take it down to Herman’s grocery store and sell it to him, then he would
put it in saleable sizes and sell it to the people, and so farm is– When you live on a farm we had
meat stamps that would expire, people were upset when they saw those expired meat stamps
“What, you let those expire?” And they’re short on meat, they get a little bit every day.
Interviewer: “So what kind of stock did you have on your farm?” (3:57)
Well everything that we needed to support a family really, had chicken, we had cows, we had
horses and no tractors at that time. We did get a tractor in ‘39 it seemed like, or was it ‘41? I
think it was ‘39.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright so you had some animals and then what were you growing on
your farm?”
Well we grew mostly things for the livestock and then fruit, it was a big fruit area here and
mostly fruit. Anything from strawberry to– You know and you’re 15 you’re out there picking
every time something out there starts to develop, you’re out there working with it.
Interviewer: “Did you get an extra gas ration because you were running a farm?”
�Christl, Roland
My brother went into the service, he was drafted in ‘41– Or before ‘41, for a year, In a year– “In
a Year I’ll be Back, Darling” The song but soon as Pearl Harbor happened well then you’re in
there for the duration, but he had a model A Ford car and he left it to me. So we both– My dad
had a sticker– I think he had an A sticker but my tire size was sort of over sized, I could buy a
new tire, my dad could only buy a used tire.
Interviewer: “Alright, so you did reasonably well there, now did you only have one
brother?”
Two brothers.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then what– Was the other brother younger than you or older–
Older he was older than you.”
Both older, yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, and did he go in the service?” (5:43)
Well my eldest brother– I was four of, he got several– Two bad operations that disqualified him
and he became a dentist. My second brother was the one that was drafted for a year and he
became an officer and he was working in California install– Overseeing the installations of the
anti aircraft in California, making sure if the Japanese try to land they have to have something
over there to shoot with, and so after that expired– You know that threat expired, then he went to
France and became a major, yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, now as for you, did you have a deferment because you were working
on the farm?”
Oh absolutely, there were several boys that farmed and had deferments so I could’ve stayed out
but I decided well I’m gonna go in, see what happens, see what’s going on.
�Christl, Roland
Interviewer: “Okay, so was it you were just kind of curious at that point or?”
Well of course I knew what’s going on, we had friends and I was in the service and I said “Well
other than just loafing around, you know and–” I said, told the draftsperson, I said “I think I
wanna go in and see if I can be of any use in there– Out there.”
Interviewer: “Alright, so I’m sure they’re happy to take you at that point.”
Oh absolutely.
Interviewer: “Alright, so when did you enter the service then?”
Well– It’s right there, that was April 11th, 1945.
Interviewer: “Alright, and where did they send you for basic training?” (7:47)
Camp Robinson, Arkansas.
Interviewer: “Okay, and how did they get you down there?”
More than likely by train I think.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright so you don’t remember much about the train ride?”
No, not the train ride.
Interviewer: “Okay, so what was Camp Robinson like?”
�Christl, Roland
Well it was the middle of summer and it was really hot and I was pretty fit, I played basketball in
school and I was pretty fit and working on the farm I was pretty able to do about anything and so
other than being hot and tiring it was endurable.
Interviewer: “Okay, now what about the discipline part, what was that like?”
Well nothing like you see in the movies or on the T.V that’s for sure, had no problem with that.
Interviewer: “Okay, so the drill sergeants were okay?”
Reasonable guys, yeah.
Interviewer: “Alright now were you used to taking orders, I mean was that easy or hard to
do?”
Well it was pretty much a unit order, it wasn’t an individual order and I was squad leader so I
had a few benefits and– Like no KP.
Interviewer: “So how did you wind up a squad leader?” (9:20)
I guess I was tall, they put all the tall men in the front and the small guys in the back and we go
out to the rifle range, we’ll do six miles and the little guys had to run sometimes to keep up.
“Slow down, slow down!” Well we’re 2nd platoon, 1st platoon is already getting ahead of us,
we’re trying to keep up with them and the little guys in the back are hollering “Slow down!”
Interviewer: “Alright, how long did you spend at Camp Robinson?”
I think it was 11 week basic, a long basic, a long basic because I was training for a replacement
now. So I was trained in mostly all the hand weapons.
Interviewer: “So you’re expecting to be just a replacement infantryman at that point?”
�Christl, Roland
Absolutely.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright and did you figure you were going to go to Japan?”
No, no I had no idea until I got to Fort Ord and I said “Well, must be going across the Pacific.”
Interviewer: “Okay, of course the war in Europe ended while you were in training.”
Right.
Interviewer: “Cause that’s in early May so Japan is about the only place left to keep
fighting. Okay, so you finish your 11 weeks, now by the time you finish that, let’s see had
Japan surrendered yet or were they just about to?”
Well they surrendered in–
Interviewer: “They surrendered in August.” (10:53)
August 15th.
Interviewer: “Yeah, so do you remember where you were then?”
I was still in the states I hope, they– We stayed there, I don’t know when we left Camp Robinson
but then we went down to Hampton, Alabama– I can’t remember the name there, then from there
we went to Fort Ord, California, we didn’t ship out there either cause now the war’s over and
they needed to figure out where to put these guys so they sent us up to– I think, Lewis–
Interviewer: “There’s Fort Lewis in Washington.”
�Christl, Roland
It was in Washington, and then we shipped out from there. One day while we were there they
had us file out and the officer came out and said “We need 1,000 volunteers.” Now what? What
do you think goes on in your mind “Are they gonna send 1,000 back home? Are they gonna keep
1,000 here?” And so we didn’t know until one of the fellows that lived in Eau Claire, which is
about five miles from Berrien Springs, but I knew he volunteered, so I didn’t know until I came
back and talked to him, they all went to Germany, took them all the way across the country, sent
him to Germany. Yeah, so we went and ended up in Japan.
Interviewer: “Okay, now how did they get you to Japan?”
On a troopship the–[unintelligible]? A troopship, forget the name of it though.
Interviewer: “Okay, now do you have a sense of how many men were on this ship?”
I think it was the General [unintelligible], I have no idea.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what was the ocean voyage like?” (13:03)
Well it was not too bad until we got out of Puget Sound then all– We said “Well this isn’t bad at
all.” You know, but we were still in Puget Sound, when we got out in the ocean then it started
rolling and then we got, I don’t know, maybe half way across and run into a storm. We were–
You look over the rail and the boat wasn’t going through the water, it was just practically
standstill because of the head winds I guess. So they called for a change of course and they went
south and you could see the boat going through the water. We got close to Japan, they spotted a
mine so everybody battle stations and they shot until they said “Stop shooting.” Yeah and a fella
who worked in the mess hall, a Navy personnel, and I got acquainted he was– And then there
was another friend who ran a 20 millimeter gun and then just kept shooting. We couldn’t see the
mine, they couldn’t either but they’re all shooting in that one direction and so it was kind of
interesting to see how they operate that. They got a barrel 20 millimeter and that’s a pretty good
size and they had an extra barrel and a container and I don’t know if this was water or what it is,
probably water, they shoot the canister, empty, they take the [unintelligible] that barrel hole, drop
�Christl, Roland
it in this container and it starts boiling. Then you get the other barrel, snap it in, put another
container on there, start shooting again, keep doing that until they make the order to stop but it
was very interesting to see how that was operated, you know and then not long before that we
stopped another mine, it wasn’t all the far away from the one. On the way over during the storm
in the third hole we were getting leaks through the seams they said– The G.Is “Just stay down
there, just stay down there.” Well they didn’t stay down there, wasn’t my hole but I’d say they
come up and they couldn’t stay down there, water seeping in, if that broke open any larger than
that you know it’d be a lot of water gushing in.
Interviewer: “Alright, so where did you land, in Japan where did you go?”
We went to Osaka and couldn’t get off because there was a bunch of Marines out there on that
area, there was no place for the soldiers, the Army and so we stayed on the boat. Well that was
28 days before we ever got off that thing, a very long time.
Interviewer: “So how did you spend your time?” (16:15)
Well everybody has a job doing something or other, we were to clean up down in the mess hall
and they had cafeteria style of course but when you have– When you have mess you have a line
of people going in the mess hall and it goes up this ladder and up that ladder and down this way
and that way, very very long line and so we’d get down there early and eat and then because
we’re in clean up we’d get in the line again that’s like two and half hours later, you know we’re
hungry again, go through the line a second time. First time you gotta get your card punched,
second time we’re in clean up so they let us through, we ate standing up.
Interviewer: “Okay, so did they let you go ashore at all or were you just–”
No, we didn't go ashore at all.
Interviewer: “Okay, so now did they finally let you go ashore in Osaka or did you go
somewhere else?”
�Christl, Roland
Got to go to Osaka, from there it must have been Yokohama, got to a big port there and we got
off and we were in the Tokyo area now.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you have a unit assignment yet or were you just still a
replacement?”
Trying to think, I got into the 98th Division, I was 8th Army. Somewhere I got mixed up but
anyway I got into the infantry there for a while and they needed a truck driver, well I drove truck
on the farm and so I got a truck driver’s license and drove. Well the 98th Division was made up
of people from the New York area, never saw a day of combat, floating reserve through the
whole war. The fella that was driving the truck going back home I took his place, he was a bus
driver from New York.
Interviewer: “Now what was it like to drive a truck around Tokyo?” (19:00)
Well, as long as you’re following someone not too bad, sometimes these roads were only about
as wide as this room, the truck has got this much space on either side and the people are riding
bicycles on both sides. So you know you drive it the best you can, I guess if something happens
it happens you keep going, it was some– And then we went to the Yokohama– Forget what they
call it where they had most of the supplies came in and they’d have supplies backed up, you
wouldn’t believe. Barrels, 55 gallon barrels like from here to that other building, about 10 feet
high and about that wide, two of you, you know and they had motor ships I mean a lot of stuff
comes off and we’d go in there for supplies and they’d load our trucks and take it back to camp.
Well after that–
Interviewer: “Well, now just a little more here, what did Tokyo itself look like at that
point?”
Tokyo downtown wasn’t too bad, they didn’t really destroy it because of imperial palaces,
they’re located really right there. They didn’t drop any bombs on that but later on when I got
�Christl, Roland
transfered over to Sugamo prison, all you had was cement slabs here and cement slabs there and
I got a picture of desolations. Unbelievable, just you know they have these houses, smaller
houses, even probably the bigger ones they’ve all got these sliding doors, you know with sort of
a paper windows in them and very very fragile buildings. So when the many pom-poms hits I
mean it goes, the fire extinguishing system they had, we had one there at 720th and we had a fire
there and so they called the Japanese fire department and we had a reservoir or a tank a little
bigger than a swimming pool probably about 10 feet deep, concrete, full of water, that was their
water for fighting fires. They drive their truck up there, throw a hose in, start the pumper up and
then that’s the way they fight the fires. Well when they got all the water pumped out, you look
down there in the bottom, there’s a napalm bomb there and it had busted open and the napalm
was kind of run out on the bottom, but if that thing were to hit ground and splattered that whole
camp would’ve– It was a Japanese military camp at one time, we took over– Took it over and
lived there and seeing that down there if it hit bare ground it would’ve splattered and that’s what
happens, you know they hit a residential area, nothing left, burned the whole thing down.
Interviewer: “Now how long did you spend as a truck driver?” (22:19)
Oh not too long because they needed someone in the telephone section so they transferred me to
the telephone section. Well when I got to the 720th MPs I worked in the telephone section, then
they transferred me to Sugamo prison. Well if you know wire, you know electrics wire so they
transferred me to the electrical department. Well then they needed some refrigeration work so
they sent me to a battalion of engineers to learn refrigeration. So I did learn refrigeration and
then I was discharged as a refrigeration service man.
Interviewer: “Okay, now let’s back up a little bit, let’s go back. You had your initial
assignment as a truck driver for the 98th Division and then you switch and your next unit
is–”
The telephone.
Interviewer: “Okay that’s– For which that was 720th?”
�Christl, Roland
No, that’s still the Army.
Interviewer: “But it’s still the 98th Division at that point?”
98th Division, yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, and how long did you work telephones?”
I don’t know, I got my T-5 there, they just jump from private to T-5, they were gonna jump me
to sergeant but, I don’t know they stopped it.
Interviewer: “They stopped promotions after a while?”
Well they stopped promotions for a while, I really don’t know how long I stayed there but–
Interviewer: “Were you just a telephone operator or did you lay wire?” (24:05)
No, no– Yeah, I even climbed poles, I was up on a pole we were supposed to tag all the wire that
came in there, before we got there the first bunch of G.Is got there they strung all these wires and
so we got all these wires up there, I went up the pole I’m gonna tag all these lines. Well so you
have a double E8 phone, you hook it in, crank the crank, and see who was there “Colonel Bork
here. Colonel Bork, who are you?” “Well I’m Corporal Christl, I’m up here on the pole checking
these lines.” “Tag that line, never get on it again.” He had a private line to–
Interviewer: “America’s headquarters?”
America’s headquarters. So one day they come in, called me into the day room, they said “Well
we’re looking for an honor guard for General MacArthur, and would you like to accept that?”
Well probably would’ve been interesting to accept that but I didn’t and– Too much spit and
polish man, you know you shine them every minute you were up there and it was kind of
�Christl, Roland
interesting and I always thought I probably would’ve done nice and seen him, maybe even
spoken with him, you know.
Interviewer: “Did you ever see MacArthur or see MacArthur’s car?”
No.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright so you’re stringing telephone wires and then how do you end
up changing jobs?”
From, well when I got out of the– When I got into the 720th I’m still in the telephone section,
you know it was just four of us and we didn’t have much to do because most of the other wire
stuff was all installed already. There was one line between us and some prison that they were
renovating and over out there stringing wires to get line from where we were to the prison and all
of a sudden here comes all these Army trucks full of prisoners, and we’re backed up against the
building and the road’s about like from here to your window and these guys are kind of swatting
see if they could hit us, you know all the prisoners. I won’t tell you what color most of them
were but–
Interviewer: “Okay, so these were American servicemen who were prisoners?” (27:05)
All American servicemen.
Interviewer: “Okay, so people who had been acting up in Japan and got themselves
arrested.”
That’s right, we had a few people come from Europe– European campaign that had bad time,
now if you have bad time in the military after you get you, you gotta make up that bad time. So
we had people over there and couldn’t get them to do anything, they did what they wanted
mostly. Sergeants in charge they give up and there wasn’t really that much for them to do and
most of what we did have to do they just didn’t do it. So now comes time to send stuff home and
�Christl, Roland
anything Japanese you could send home, the machine gun, anything. This fella that was in– I
think it was our group, saw him all the time, he was sending home boxes full of Japanese
military stuff, a flare gun, and at the warehouse you could get that stuff and no one said anything
about it.
Interviewer: “Alright, so well why did you change from the 98th Division over to the MP
unit?”
Well the 98th Division was coming back to the states and I hadn’t been there very long so I’m
not going back with them.
Interviewer: “Okay, those guys most of the rest of them had been in the division longer
during the war itself and so they rotate home but you’re still there. Okay and now they
gotta rotate you into a different unit and so you wind up with the MPs.”
Right.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then how long did you stay with that MP company?” (29:02)
Well I really can’t say because we had that bad fire and the building was completely practically
destroyed and the colonel came out and– I think he’s a colonel, and– But he was intoxicated
“Someone get the hose on that fire!” “Well we’re waiting for the Japanese fire department to
come.” “I don’t care, call them again.” Well after him coming out like that he got transferred to
Sugamo prison. So then he had the MP battalion overstaffed, so they wanted to get us down to
what the staff should be. So some of us got transferred out and he had a way of getting some of
us over to Sugamo prison where he was at. So we’re in review at Sugamo prison some time, he
came by and he asked where we had been in service– Stationed before, and so I told him I, well
was at the MPs and he said “Well how do you like it here?” Was only about four– Three, four
miles difference between one and the other, so I said “Very good sir.” So that’s where he ended
up and where I ended up.
�Christl, Roland
Interviewer: “Now what was your job at the prison, what was your job?”
Well then I would become an electrician because I knew wires, so wires are wires, telephone
wires, electrical wires, that’s the Army, and so I’m in the electrical. Well then the– We did all
these odd jobs and like Tokyo Rose’s switches and other things. We had a short one of those big
barracks now we’re in the Japanese campgrounds. They had these buildings, two story buildings,
long ones like from here way over to that other building there and so it short and blew the fuse.
Well you pull out the wooden box and there’s a terminal here and there with a lead wire in
between, so every time you flip the switch the lead wire would melt. So it was a short and it’s not
working in the middle of the day, ”How you gonna find a short in a big building?” I said “Well
one way we can find out– I’m an electrician, one way we can find out we’ll put a copper wire in
there.” And down at the other end of the building they have a small section sectioned off for a
guard house and they had a bulb hanging down on the wire and pull the chain, you know and
then you have electricity, have a light. So all of a sudden that thing was shorted out and started
smoking and they sent in the fire alarm. So we quickly, you know, knew where the short was, so
well then they had two elevators in the prison, one was working fine the other one was not
working. (32:40) So, work order comes in “See if you can get the other elevator in operation.”
So went up on the roof, opened the door, looked in there and I don’t think I’m going to try to do
a thing in there, close the door back up, you know all these copper, brass switches and poles and
what not. So that was one experience, now the officer’s latrine didn’t have hot water. “Fix it
and– Fix it and hurry up.” Well, so we took a look and the electrodes would come out like that,
spark and set off the oil. They were burned out, there’s no replacement “You ain’t gonna fix
something? Hurry up.” Well I says “You know we have these welding rods, they got a flux on
them and so let’s try one of those.” Well we put those in and sure enough it worked, for a week
and then burned out again. So now the officers are really hot, you know “You guys fix
something it don’t stay fixed what’s the matter with you!” You know, blah blah blah. So I forget
how we ever resolved that but I think they did finally find it. See I wasn’t in charge of the
electrical department, we had an old man who was in charge of that, he was regular Army come
to think about it, and so that was another– Then the– How I became a refrigeration repair man,
they brought in–
�Christl, Roland
Interviewer: “Hang on before we get there, before we started the interview you told me a
story about Tokyo Rose and if I could record that on the cam here. First off, could you
explain who Tokyo Rose was?”
Well she was an American citizen and she went to Japan to visit her family and the war broke
out, she couldn’t come back. So she’s an American citizen just like we are, she speaks– Probably
spoke Japanese too, I have no idea but she visited her family so she probably does and so they
asked her, or told her one or the other, that they wanted her to broadcast on the radio to the G.Is
in the area and they would give her what she should say, and so she said “Well you know how it
goes.” You know, we know where you’re at, we know where you’re going, you’re not gonna
make it, you know and things like that.
Interviewer: “Yeah, so it’d been basically a propaganda broadcast during the war that
became very famous that way. Alright, so how was it that you met her?”
Well as an electrician the order came in, Tokyo Rose needs her electrical switch fixed. (36:00)
So we had a young Japanese electrician and an older one and so if we had anything that needed
fixing we could either try to do it ourselves or take the Japanese, I took the old Japanese man
with me and we went all the way to her prison cell, they had four or six cell blocks– The last four
or six cells was boarded off by the door. That was where the two women were in there, Tokyo
Rose is one and there was another younger one from Saipan they said, and so we got up there
and a guard let us in and I said– Told the Japanese fellow to fix the switch and I sat down at the
table like this and talked to Tokyo Rose and so I asked her if I could have her signature. She said
yes but I don’t have anything to write on, so I had a ten yen note in my pocket and this is the ten
yen note and on the backside there’s her signature Iva Jade Toguri which was her name then. She
got married I think in the states after that and Tokyo Rose in books.
Interviewer: “Alright and then you left the room.”
Definitely left, well I went through and told her that– The guard left and I’m sitting there with
her and she said to me “Are you gonna– Are they gonna leave you in here alone with me?” I said
�Christl, Roland
“I won’t bother you.” She said “That’s not the point.” She says “I haven’t been alone with a man
for a long time.” Well that kind of interested me and so then I got her signature and fellow fixed
the switch and we left. They had a guard right outside of her door all the time.
Interviewer: “Okay, now were there other Japanese prisoners being held there?”
Oh yeah, Tojo and all his bunch were– Bunch of them, there was a lot of them there and I had
this picture showing the bus that they took him on and down to Tokyo to the war crime trials just
like they did in Germany. They had several they took on the bus, they had escorts in the front
and the back and away they went and we couldn’t get into the prison until they were out. When
they were loading the bus I got someone sitting up there I said “Well one day I’m gonna take my
camera and take a picture.”
Interviewer: “What kind of impression did you have of the Japanese people generally?”
Oh they were wonderful, wonderful people, they were not a bit aggressive or unruly or anything
like that. If you went downtown Tokyo and walk down the street they would part, they would
part to let you walk through. They were instructed by their emperor what to do.
Interviewer: “Were you surprised that they were that well behaved?” (39:48)
Oh absolutely, I surely think the young men would heckle or say something, none of them ever
did because we were out there– Well at the prison you lived in a quonset hut, it was outside the
walls of the prison, the wall was like six feet from the quonset hut about 30 feet tall and our
quonset hut now is about this far from the sidewalk and the sidewalk is right next to the street
and the Japanese living on the other side they can’t walk– They’re not supposed to walk on our
side, they were walking back and forth across the street. So being in the Army most everyone
smoked after we ate, sit down along the wall of the quonset hut and smoke our cigarette and
when we’re done we’d flick the cigarette butt out in the middle of the road, about ten little kids
would jump on it, really. When we got done at the mess hall we dumped our trays, that was like
service, self service, and when we got done we had something left, went into the 55 barrel and
�Christl, Roland
we dumped our trays into two or three different barrels and left but when we were done eating
they took this 55 gallon barrel of leftovers, pulled it across the street and little kids are lined up
there with their little pails to get what they could out of there. It was two little girls, must’ve been
twins, and their folks live right down the street, I could see them down there looking out the door
waiting for them to come back. They lived in little shacks it’s all they had cause this is a couple
months after the end of the war, and one day the two little girls didn’t get anything were too late
and so crying boy oh both of them crying walking back with their empty pails, that was pretty
sad and a lot of people in the big parks they had– There was people always crawling under the
buses and dying, yeah.
Interviewer: “So there was starvation, there was a lot of other problems. Alright, now one
of the things that went on I mean there was also a lot of prostitution and things like that
going on, were you aware of that?”
Yeah, oh sure, I don’t think I’ll get into that.
Interviewer: “Yeah, wasn’t a personal question more just were you aware that was going
on kind of thing.” (42:45)
Well there at Sugamo prison we had a little walk, like from here to where I live, to get to the
train station to go any place, was mostly all cement slabs and every night there’d be a bunch of
girls out there waiting for anybody that came out. We were getting battle rations at that time so
we’re getting a lot of stuff for free and when we did buy cigarettes out of the PX I think they
were one carton a week because, you know cigarettes is real high, you know I think it was 60
cents per carton of cigarettes, ten packs. You could sell them to Japanese for $20 and so 60 cents
for a carton of cigarettes, you know how much is one pack worth, and I’m thinking it’s ten packs
so each pack is worth six cents and to the Japanese it’s worth 30 yen which is $2 and that’s all it
took, you could have one of the girls anytime you wanted one for one pack of cigarettes, for the
price of one pack of cigarettes.
Interviewer: “Did that create health problems in the unit?”
�Christl, Roland
Well sure, would any place it would be that way in the United States.
Interviewer: “Okay, now were there also, I mean were there– The downtown area, did they
have regular restaurants and things that were open that you could go to?”
Not too much, we weren’t allowed really to eat anything or not to drink anything either when I
was back in the 98ths a couple guy went to town to drink some– Something that the Japanese
gave them, which was wood alcohol, and almost died, yeah almost died.
Interviewer: “Alright, now you were going to talk about becoming a refrigeration
specialist, how does that happen?”
Well then we had a walk-in cooler that they used when they are out in the fields and it was
gasoline driven and now they wanted us to convert it to an electric motor. So how we gonna do
that? (45:27) Well nobody in the electrical department that I’m in there could figure that out so
they sent me to work at an engineering battalion to learn refrigeration. So I learned quite a bit
about refrigeration, how to test refrigerators that are not performing properly and how to convert
one to electric. So I got the old electrician, the old man, and tried to explain to him what we
wanted and he got most of everything and we got it going. Yeah, we did convert it.
Interviewer: “Alright, now when you were in Japan did you know how long you were going
to have to stay?”
I had no idea, no.
Interviewer: “Okay, now while you were there were a lot of the other men rotating home or
once you got to the prison did those people stay pretty much the same?”
Well everyone has points and you’re on a point system, when you get so many points then you
go home. Yeah so some people left, when I left I think two of the people that were in the MP
�Christl, Roland
battalion were– Still stayed. Then you get down to what they call the repple depple which is a
replacement depto where you go to get shipped out. We had chow lines, must have been almost
from here to Eric’s barn over there long, single file. “What are we eating?” “Well we’re having–
” This and this and you get about halfway there and guys they’re coming back already “What are
they eating?” They changed the menu already, that’s how long– How many people were there
and then of course when the boat comes in and we’re ready to load up then we go, going back
was easy yeah.
Interviewer: “And when did you come back to the states?”
Well we came back to Fort Lewis, Washington and didn’t stay there all that long they– Got
discharged there.
Interviewer: “Okay, I guess you’ve got a discharge date, January 4th, 1947. Now do you
remember where you were Christmas of ‘46?” (48:07)
I remember going down to Tokyo to the– What’d they call those clubs, G.I clubs and I think it
was run by the Red Cross, they had a big Christmas tree and I went down there.
Interviewer: “That must have been right before you left then, unless that was the year
before.”
I wasn’t paying much attention to dates.
Interviewer: “Alright, now once you do get back home, you’re out of the Army now 1947.
What do you do?”
Well before that I got to Chicago, wanted to catch the Twilight Limited to Niles, they said “No,
no G.Is” So my brother lived in the suburbs in Chicago and I called him and he said “Well come
over and stay overnight and I’ll take you back to Berrien Springs tomorrow.” I was surprised that
they wouldn’t– Twilight Limited is a faster train to Detroit, Chicago to Detroit stops at Niles but
�Christl, Roland
they wouldn’t let us on, wouldn't let us on. I thought that was a fine “How do you do?” You
know?
Interviewer: “Yeah thank you for your service, maybe some other G.Is got in trouble.”
Yeah, so after I got home well I just sat right back in, my bed’s still there.
Interviewer: “So you just went back to farming and then–”
Well I worked at Studebaker for about a year I think, I know I spent one summer there because
we didn’t have all that much crops because my dad cut back and so I spent about a year a
Studebaker’s making $3 and something an hour and that was a high paying place in this area at
that time.
Interviewer: “So why did you leave Studebaker?” (50:20)
Well, needed a little cash, I sent mine home from Japan, and I think I needed a little operating
money and there wasn’t much coming in at that time.
Interviewer: “But then after a year at Studebaker you left?”
Yeah, I left yeah and start farming with my dad.
Interviewer: “Okay and is that basically then what you did as your career, were you a
farmer?”
Absolutely, and then we started putting in orchards and you know only takes about three years,
especially peaches you start getting production and grapes and pears. Next family expanded on
those acreages, we raised a lot of fruit. We had a hundred ton of grapes, had to plant them all by
hand, picked them by hand, hold them in our– Mostly in the wineries at that time.
�Christl, Roland
Interviewer: “Alright, now to think back at the time you spent in the service how do you
think that affected you or what did you learn from it or were you just the same guy when
you got back?”
I figured I was.
Interviewer: “Alright, you certainly saw and did some interesting things so thank you very
much for taking the time to share the story today.”
Well you’re welcome
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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RHC-27
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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ChristlR2164V
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Christl, Roland
Date
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2017-10
Title
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Christl, Roland (Interview transcript and video), 2017
Description
An account of the resource
Roland Christl was born on October 29, 1924 in Berrien Springs, Michigan, where he graduated high school in 1943. Since several of his friends and brothers were in the service, he decided to enlist into the Army to offer his contribution to the war effort. Enlisting in April of 1945, Christl was sent to Camp Robinson, Arkansas, for Basic Training. Both the war in Europe and the war in the Pacific ended while Christl was in training, and he bounced between camps in the United States awaiting postwar orders. From Fort Lewis, Washington, he was deployed to Japan on a troop ship, dodging several ship mines in the Pacific during the voyage. The ship landed in Osaka before transferring to Yokohama. In Yokohama, Christl was assigned to the 98th Infantry Division and volunteered to be a truck driver, operating supply lines between the port and Tokyo. Later, he volunteered and transferred into the telephone section of the 98th Division alongside the 720th Military Police Battalion. Eventually, Christl accepted a job renovating a prison that held American servicemen from both theaters who were being penalized for insubordination. Since most of his division rotated home shortly thereafter, he was transferred to the 720th Military Police Battalion, working in a detachment at the prison. He, again, became an electrician with the MPs and worked electrical maintenance duties around the prison. Christl also had the opportunity to meet the famed wartime broadcast host Tokyo Rose while fixing her cell’s electrical switches. While talking with her, he managed to get her autograph on a ten yen note. The prison also held several Japanese officials who were being put on trial for war crimes. Overall, Christl thought the Japanese people were wonderfully respectful toward American troops despite the heightened poverty and starvation rates they suffered after the war. He was also briefly transferred to an Engineer Battalion to be trained as a refrigeration technician. He worked as a refrigeration technician until he accrued enough service points to rotate back to the United States in January of 1947. After leaving the service, he moved back onto the family farm and briefly worked for Studebaker Automobile Company before returning to farming. Reflecting upon his time in the service, Christl believed he left the Army as the same man or character that entered it.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Lest We Forget
Subject
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Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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video/mp4
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ae9c8c2ba3880edf22312455d2630655.mp4
08104161569f100d03eccdc2d1ed8e79
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2452dee325560cc7fa79fde2a0515c88.pdf
acb9d5f545322589cd11fa5a5a7ade68
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Roger Talmadge
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interview length: 1:37:52
Interviewer: Alright, we are continuing Roger Talmadge’s interview and we had worked
our way through most of your military career. Now, we had gotten into what I gather was
your last assignment. You were based in Alexandria, Virginia. You were essentially in
charge of the whole set of computers that the Army used on various bases with individual
units around the world. So, you were stuck kind of outside of Washington, outside of the
Pentagon? Okay. And you had been developing systems in the last piece of the last episode.
You were talking about how you had already done a system for the 24th Division that
General Norman Schwarzkopf was in charge of down in Georgia. And you had gone back
to him and asked, well, can we come back and sort of upgrade or fix it and he didn’t want
anyone to touch anything.
Veteran: We wanted to go to a war time system and leave the peace time system. So, he rebuffed
us and threw us out of the office.
Interviewer: Alright. And then, somebody that you knew, or knew of, from your 1st
Cavalry days was commanding a division elsewhere and he agreed to let you come in. So,
sort of who was that? Where were they?
�Veteran: Alright, what General Schwarzkopf did: he complained to Washington D.C.
leadership—somebody, I don’t know who it is—that, doggone it, he’s over here, he’s in a
combat zone. I think it was in 1990s time frame. And one of the sergeants that is here this
morning went with the warrant officer. And so, to respond—Washington’s response was to send
some subject matter experts to the General’s headquarters and, wherever it was, in the war effort
in the Middle East. And they gave a briefing on the system generally. And as they got to a point
where okay, fine, and just general information got out. And so, General Schwarzkopf left and as
he was leaving, one of his aides had waved to Steve to come on. And so, they went with the—he
went with the general back to his office and there is where he told him, “This system that we’ve
got for you is very, very simple. It is easy to use.” And he started bellowing about it, “Well,
that’s fine but I expected a war time system and I don’t know what you are talking about in the
briefing just now but I want to see it.” (00:02:44)
Veteran: He said, “Alright. Well, it’s so simple that any simpleton can run it. It doesn’t matter
who you are.” He said, “Now, what you want on—what I want you to do is hit this key and this
key and over here, push it all the way down together at the same time.” And when he did that,
the screen of his computer blinked and it came up: war time system. What it did: it was a faster
system than the system he was using because it dumped 30…66% of his database and refreshed
it with—keeping the names and units where people were assigned and such pertinent information
about the soldier. But it also included acronyms and things like that that you don’t use in
peacetime, in war time, like WIA: wounded in action; KIA: killed in action; MIA: missing in
action; and other kinds of things that did not appear in peacetime system. But all of it,
dependents data and things like that was gone. Detailed information about his training, past
assignments, all gone. Had a skeleton and it was like a form: you just read it and you are done. It
�was one page. So, I think the general was pleased but he still threw Steve out of the office. Steve
was [unintelligible]
Interviewer: Alright. Now, I guess you were…as you were kind of setting this up, you were
net referencing being in a warzone in the ‘90s. Now, Gulf War is 1991. You had retired in
’89. (00:04:27)
Veteran: Yes, so I found this out after—
Interviewer: So, you were aware of this later. Okay, so there was sort of an epilogue to the
story about Schwarzkopf not wanting the upgrade to his system when you tried to give it to
him.
Veteran: And then when he got it, he was complaining he didn’t have it. And sure enough, it was
on his system all—it was laying in the background. And all he had to do was hit it.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: Now Ed Berber, who tested the system when he went over there, he knew the system. I
mean, he practiced this in person in his own office. And so, he didn’t have that question.
Interviewer: Okay. And then what unit had he been commanding when you sent your guys
to him? Was he on the west coast at that point?
Veteran: Well, Ed? Or…?
Interviewer: Ed. Because you were—basically, because Schwarzkopf wouldn’t take—
didn’t want to be the one—
Veteran: He was in Georgia.
�Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: So, we went…we took our case and pleaded with the commander of the 7th U.S.
infantry division and he was in California. And so, it was a subsequent assignment to that. He
was a 2-star; he moved up to 3-star and so forth, eventually 4. But at his later assignments, when
he was out in the war time environment, he knew the system because he tested it. And he went
down there with his brigade commanders and battalion commanders. Well, in the gymnasium—
and they broke it down into little cubicles—and they would communicate with each other. And it
worked. And they used satellite communication. They were sitting there in one building. The
satellite was still communicating. But interesting thing about the box: two men could carry it and
it finally became a laptop. But the box itself. If you are in a combat situation or even a training
situation and you dropped it off the 2 ½ or 5-ton truck, it could survive that. If a tank drove over
it, it wouldn’t survive that. So, let’s say it was my computer and the tank drove over it and in
maneuvers it just happened to fall off the truck and the tank was making a turn and it got wiped
out. All’s I’d have to do is go down to the supply room, get myself another command lift
computer, bring it in, plug it in, type in my username and my password, and 1 of 2 satellites
would reload that thing to my last finger touch on the keyboard. (00:06:49)
Interviewer: Wow.
Veteran: And that was universal.
Interviewer: And today that doesn’t sound so surprising with everything in the cloud
somewhere but we are talking late 1980s at this point and…
�Veteran: 1980 technology and but it was 21st century philosophy. And all’s we did is we updated
all along the way. And when they finally got the laptops, they were able to get all that stuff in
there and had 1 baseline instead of 3.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, roughly when did this happen? When did you have to start using
that system?
Veteran: They—we started using it in live in peacetime mode.
Interviewer: Yeah. But I meant in what year was it that you were going to the 7th Division
and…?
Veteran: Oh, the 7th Division was…I think it was about ’85-’86, maybe ’87, in that timeframe.
And so, I’d fly out to California and we’d have our little soldier back and forth talk and then we
would scope out with him and his folks. They worked directly with us because he couldn’t spend
a lot of time with us. And how we need to organize and command post exercise, on post, in one
of the gymnasiums. Later on, he put it out in his training areas and they are separate physically
but they are doing the same thing they’re doing in the gymnasiums. They would practice in the
gym, took it out here, and it still worked. And he’d walk around and…just look around, see
what’s going on. (00:08:29)
Veteran: So, the peacetime system worked very well and that’s where we got our statistics of
99.6% accuracy. And I ordered them in 48 hours. So, the wartime system was super fast because
it had a lot of room. It could expand if you needed it for something. So, that started the show up
as I was leaving in 1989 but it didn’t get into the battlefield until 1990. Now, they used it when
they went into Panama. I was already out of the service. They used it when they went into
Panama and but they also had the backup system working at the same time. So, they learned
�something from that which helped them further improve it before it went overseas to the Middle
East units deployed.
Interviewer: Alright. So now, what other kind of initiatives and projects did you run while
you were in that last assignment?
Veteran: The last assignment I was…when I reported in, there was a 2-star general, commander
of the Army personnel command. And I just went up there and I just checked in like I would
anybody else. “I am just arriving and I am your senior chaplain.” He said, “Well, that’s fine.” We
visit a little bit. He was at Fort Bragg in the 101st, or one of those, and 82nd airborne. And so, we
heard he injured himself on one of his parachute jumps. So, we were watching him when
eventually they retired him out of that because he did, he really did, hurt himself. But in the
meantime, he was just a place where he could be functional in a positive way because he was a
very good motivator and knew about everything that was going on, including he got involved
with what we were doing. (00:10:40)
Veteran: That was part of bringing the personnel management system into reality in the 21st
century. Various employees. So, we continued our several Bible studies, and he was aware of
that too, in the confines of those office buildings, the 2 buildings. And so, that worked out very
well. The second time around—this was the second time I was in that command—and in my
organization the first time, where I was in officer’s management, we had a situation. One of my
folks who lived in Maryland…husband took his life. And so, I got involved in that and I traveled
from Alexandria, Virginia to where she was at her mother and spent some time with her. She was
just absolutely come undone. And the—she had a survivor assistance officer but nobody would
listen to her so we took care of that. And I kept in touch with her. And she slowly got perspective
on it; she was grieving. Well, I was faced with the same situation here. The gentleman that took
�his life in a second tour there, General Ralph and myself and others, we went to the funeral and
General Ralph drove. And I think it was in West Virginia; I am not exactly 100% sure. But it
was some distance. Took him an hour and a half or two to get there. And we went to the funeral
and we listened to all the little stories and what everybody had to say. (00:12:35)
Veteran: And what happened was he seemed to be disturbed and we got close to him. One of my
warrant officers who is really close to everybody, he helped me by recruiting a lot of these guys
that came in with their skillsets. And really tried to encourage them and he seemed to bubble up.
He went home to spend…oh, I don’t know? Maybe a week or month, whatever it was, his
normal time off on his vacation time that is authorized. And towards the end of it, he took his
life. And so, we were absolutely shocked by that. So, we went to the funeral and we had military
honors at the graveside. And the general had me present the flag to the…I guess it was his
mother. I don’t know what the deal was with the wife. I forget that part of it but son was there.
And so, we spent some time with him. But gosh, what they told us was that he came there and he
was fine and he went fishing with him. I guess they even went hunting together. They just—
normal things that you do when you’re out in the wonderful, beautiful countryside of West
Virginia. And once in a while, the guys would call and he’d say, “Yeah, doing great.” But then
they went shopping one day and he put signs on the back bedroom door, ‘do not enter,’ ‘do not
come in this room,’ all that kind of stuff. I don’t know what else he put on it. And he took his life
and they came home to that. And so, that was…that was a hard trip to…that was a hard trip to
build…to support them and it took a long time for them to get perspective on that. (00:14:28)
Veteran: Very, very difficult. So, that gave me a little background before we visited that other
fellow I think I told you about, David Duckworth. And we did some investigating and there was
nothing to substantiate that he took his life. So, that was not a suicide. These were definitely
�suicides. And of course, the police got the weapons and all that stuff and they checked it,
fingerprints, and it took a while for them to—they had primary faced evidence to support their
conclusion. The other one had nothing. So, that—this was a heartbreak for us and that was a
shock at the same time. So, we had normal things that took place and we worked side by side
with everybody to do the work of those things.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, is there a point here where you start to think that maybe it is
time to retire? Or is that a signal being given to you by anybody else? Because eventually
you do go out in ’89. So, what leads into that?
Veteran: Well, so I had been there 5 years and they figured that I was homesteading or
something but we were getting—we were trying to birth a project that needed that extra…it
needed consistency of leadership in order to get ‘er done. Plus, the rapport we had with
commanders everywhere—they would go into a division, a corps, and then later on the battalions
and whatever else. And so, they trusted what we were doing and such a point where we would
suggest that this is what—this is kind of a thing you ought to do and as a training exercise. And
we would either have somebody go over there and help them or we would go over and help.
(00:16:22)
Veteran: But mostly our guys would go over and assist a unit. It doesn’t matter what size it was.
And that what’s made it rain and we found out a lot of mistakes or things that we just didn’t
understand, we figured them out in the field. And so, that really was a plus for the unit and us.
Well, at some point we got a new general in and he was going to clean house. So, okay. They—
when I got in that position in 1984, they upgraded from a lieutenant to a full colonel. I think I
mentioned to you I had a couple secretaries. The last one came on as a volunteer and finally I
hired her. Sherry Marinoff.
�Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And because she talked directly, I’d go to the Pentagon and I’d talk directly to the
office of the secretaries. In other words, Navy, Army, whatever. Because we networked with the
dependents—the DR system where they get their benefits because they are bonified and
validated dependent. So, but all the services are connected with that same system. So, we’d get
with the Navy and then we’d get with the Navy, the Marines, and we’d get with the Air Force
and the rest of them with the idea that our data that goes into our database needs to have the same
structure. Now, one of the things that didn’t work for the other departments was the fact that they
still had a 6-digit field for date and we fixed that. And so, what you have to do, you have to go
through all your software development and you have to move it and it impacts stuff down here so
you have to move that stuff too. Anyway, it takes—it’s a structural problem. (00:18:24)
Veteran: And so, we did that and so they did it too. And their systems are different than ours.
They might have that block somewhere else in the total of their software but as long as it is the
same, it is compatible. So, we worked on differences. I worked with the captain or 06 of the
department of the Navy, Marine Corps, and I worked with the 06 colonels in another department.
Well, my secretaries would call on all of them. One side would do this or do that or maybe we
are going to have some kind of a combined thing and somebody is pushing it, an outside agency
we need to get involved and they need to be with us, they need to be in it too. And so, because of
her direct contact, because that was in her job description, they promoted her to secretary to be
for a general officer. That was cool. So, she…so then she left me. The Navy recruited her out
of—right out of my office. And I pretended like, “Oh, everything is going to be fine.” I don’t like
her being gone because I would just hand stuff to her and walk away; it was done. And the other
guys that would travel too, not just myself, but they’d come in with these notes and she had this
�shelf. She would just take the shelf, insert it, and then put in the changes and it was done. She
could do it really well. Well, the person that replaced her…we just had a volunteer in there for a
while. So, 6 months went by. I got a phone call and this real sheepish voice says, “Can I come
back?” I said, “Well, it’s vacant.” So, we got her back and then we, a couple of us, went in my
office and sat down with us. “Now, what happened?” Somebody in the Department of the Navy
had hired her. Personnel management kinds of things and it was fine. (00:20:32)
Veteran: And they didn’t give her a job description. They gave her a desk and she was out here
with several ladies, 1, 2, 3, whatever, 4 of them. And so, one of the…lieutenant commanders, I
guess, he came up to her and she said, “I need a job description. I want to know what I am
supposed to be doing here. I am earning all this nice money and I want to contribute.” And he
says, “You are contributing. Just come to work and look good.” And he walked away. So, she
put up with that for a while, then she called us. She came back working for less money but she
was one of the men, one of the boys, and that kind of stuff. And so was her husband. But they
didn’t care about her husband; they didn’t care about Pete. They were interested in her. So, that
was a hard lesson for her. When I left, when I retired, she went over and worked for either the
Navy or Air Force, the inspector general office. And she was looking at the west side of the
Pentagon when it blew up on 9/11/01. The reason I got out was…they wanted me to stay in.
General Ralph was gone and a replacement came in and he wanted to clean shop. And so, what
they were telling me is, “Well, we could send you to Europe and you could be the chief of
automation for the United States Army there.” And I thought about that. (00:22:20)
Veteran: Do I want to be moving the family and all that stuff for 3 years? And I’d come back
here a foreigner almost and try to look for a second job. “I don’t think that would work very
well.” “Well, we will send you back to Fort Huachuca and you can run their computer system.”
�They didn’t want—they wanted me to stay in computer systems, not personnel or intelligence or
anything with the infantry. “So, you know, this is a good wind down. You can earn big money.”
Whenever I got promoted, I had been in so long, I just went to the top level pay scale thing. So,
that was, you know, that was nice. And I was thinking about that. Well, that’s really nice too.
That was kind of far from everything. So, they’re thinking of all these things and I—they could
send me to. One of them was become the deputy chief of staff for personnel, work for General
Elton, who was in Panama. And that’s the Southern Command, whatever you call that. And they
were under lockdown because of the rebels and all that stuff and there was a large military
facility there. And all the dependents were placed within that thing and couldn’t really go out to
do what you normally could have done before because of the rebels and their lives were in
danger. And I don’t want to get in danger. I got into some intelligence reports, finding out just
what the depth of this stuff was. So, finally I said, “I don’t know.” The Lord said, “Why don’t
you just go to Rowan Oak?” Rowan Oak, Virginia. Rowan Oak. Two words. I don’t know. So,
we went to Roanoke in May—I mean, March—of 2000…I mean, 1989. We went looking around
and we found a house that was out in the city but up in the mountains and it had this…I wanted
trees and be next to water, like I was in the lake. Well, the best of—the closest we got to was a
swimming pool. (00:24:27)
Veteran: 19,000 gallon swimming pool. Everything else was there, so—and it was inexpensive.
It was the cheapest house on the block. So, whatever it was, we needed to fix it up. Okay. So, we
put a contract on that rascal and got it and we are still in it today. But when we got that thing and
moved our—we moved out, down there, and I retired out at the end of July in 1989. And then
there we started a new chapter in our lives. One of the first things we did is work on the house
and when I ran out of money, I needed to find a job. And Disabled American Veterans got ahold
�of me and not only did I become one of their volunteers, but they hired me to start running one of
their fiscal operations in the Roanoke Valley. And so, after about a year, year and a half of that,
they called me to Ruthville where they had a Virginia, Department of Virginia, conference of
some sort. And they interviewed me and they hired me also, at the same time, to run several
thrift stores in the commonwealth of Virginia. And they had rules but some places just ignored
them and there was a lot of stuff disappearing and there was—they were not making money.
They went out of business 2 or 3 times and hired the same people back because they didn’t know
anybody else. And I didn’t know anybody except for those guys. So, I told them, “If you hire me,
you also get my consultant. And if you don’t like my consultant, you don’t need me.” “What
consultant?” I said, “The Lord Jesus Christ.” “Okay. Meeting adjourned. We will call you later.”
(00:26:34)
Veteran: They called me, they hired me. So, they had to put up with the Lord and myself. And
that was a problem because some folks were really doing some bad things as far as business
management. Accounting was needing upgrading. My hands were tied; I had to use their
accountant and their banks. And some mail came into me in Roanoke. It was missent. It should
have been going to Richmond, somebody in Richmond, but not me. And I opened it up and what
it was was a bank account in Richmond some accountant had. It was $64,000 for Disabled
American Veterans’ fiscal operation. And he was using the money to lend out to high risk folks
that needed loans. So, I got that money and then we leaned on him and I got another $17,000 out
of him. And then a local accounting service, we got with them, and the guy that I talked to was
one of the partners of it. His name was David Rowan and he used to be the president of the
Society for Accounting in a college in north Virginia. So, he coached me. He said, “You know,
you’re going to have to do something.” And so, we looked around and so we got involved with
�him and he straightened all this mess out. And once it got straightened out, the first clear year we
made over 1.3 million, we grossed. The next year was 1.5 and, all of a sudden, that disappeared.
(00:28:19)
Veteran: There was a clause in my contract that said when I worked—anybody working for the
division—the Department of Virginia—for the…Any residual at the end of the year they got
10% off the top during the year. And if there is anything leftover, they got that too. Hmmm.
$365,000 was redistributed amongst 44 chapters. My backup money for growth was gone. And
that happened about—after about 5 or 6 years I was with them. And so, I struggled to get that
squared away. Did some other things and finally, after about 21 years in that, I just bowed out of
it. It was…the leadership was coming in; they couldn’t read reports. The—David Rowan would
come over and try to educate them. They were uneducated. They weren’t—they didn’t have
business or accounting or anything where you’d get it in college, you’d get it in your—as an
undergraduate. And so, I just got out of that mess. In the meantime, in 1992, I was elected as the
Department Chaplain for the state of Virginia, and I kept that until 2013. And I was the only one
that did that. But what we did: we brought a team on board. It wasn’t a one man show. And
everybody got involved and so that made it a community. And when we had problems within the
community, in other words, the growing pains of society, and we had that amongst ourselves, we
would treat it. and we would have the folks that were—it doesn’t matter who it was—they would
get involved in it so it was a community resolution. (00:30:18)
Veteran: And we didn’t violate our mores or our person at all. And so, that was helpful. And the
idea was that we would become faithful and work for the good of our veterans through this
organization that has tentacles in various solutions out there, like the VA medical center or
various programs. And the government has things that they do to help veterans and families. So,
�we got involves with that so that gave me a strong background with working families. And I got
involved with quite a few of those through the thrift store operation. But it was a—it was a very
high-end challenge. I was paid for that and for the thrift store. But as far as whatever I did as a
chaplain, that was gratis to them. And but it was educational for me too. I even got the
opportunity to speak in various churches around in the commonwealth of Virginia, color or not,
and then that was excellent. One family of color adopted one of my sons and then they’d go
shopping together and carry on and just like a parent would a child and it’s acting up in the
shopping mall and they’d—their dialogue was just hilarious. But you know, “Mom, I want that.”
“No, you can’t have that.” That kind of thing. But that was good, that was positive, because we
needed that. A lot of folks are—they stay away from problems like that and why don’t you just
treat them. Just come at them full bore and but with a bit of grace and make those things change.
And so, that helped. We didn’t have that as a normal fare but my golly after about 3 or 4 years
we started, it started blooming and it stayed with us for as long as I was in there. (00:32:23)
Veteran: And I brought in a lot of folks. They came onboard and we had a tremendous choir and
those people were also giving as far as helping people that would come into some of our
meetings, conventions, throughout the year. We had 3 of them a year and so that was educational
and very rewarding doing that. I had open heart surgery on October, 2012, and I learned about it
in 1984. A flight surgeon in the Pentagon said, “You have a heart flutter. They call it atrial
fibrillation. And your liquor is also messed up. It’s going the wrong way. And so, the left side is
malfunctioning and it’s going to impact your heart somehow.” And what it was…Research
indicated that the Agent Orange, which was found in my blood, was causing that left electrical
false transmission. And it got strong that way so they put me on some medicine to help but it
really didn’t. And so, I went to…I had pseudo heart attacks a couple times in 1990 alone and
�they even sent me down to Duke to the VA there because it is a higher-level capability. And they
said, “It is your electrical problem.” And so, they cardioverted me and it went to a normal sinus
rhythm. Boy, I had a surge of power. (00:34:05)
Veteran: It’s amazing because I had a good, oxygenated blood flow. That was great but it only
lasted about a couple weeks and then it would shut down. And the medicine they gave me I
became allergic to and it, in one case, my eyes and my lungs started silting. So, I got off that
stuff quickly and I didn’t get on anything else. So, by and by, I retired and of course in 1990 I—
during that early retired years—that’s when I had some of this 1990 stuff pop up. And then later
on, I kept up with the civilian end of VA Salem. VA Salem really tried to help but they didn’t
have the talent that the local hospitals had. So, finally my mitral valve failed. I—it wouldn’t
close properly so I had half. If you are supposed to have X coming in, I had half an X when this
thing failed. So, I was tired all the time and my chest hurt me some time. I mean, there was
nothing wrong with it except it was—didn’t have enough blood. My head, it was hard to do
anything seriously cognitively because it didn’t have the oxygenated blood that you should have.
And these are things that they were training me. So, we got into the decision: do I have open
heart surgery? And we did and they took it out and they took the—it has 3 little feathers. They
were extended and they just cut, twisted, and so it was coming this way. So, the doctor, he’s a
little guy, he had to get on a soapbox to stand over me while I was in the operating room. He had
been there for years. And so he took it out, cleaned the place where he took it out, and then he
took the—got rid of the—he trimmed it, he sculptured these…the end of it, and then put a
composite ring in there and put it back and then he put full pressure on it. And when that thing
was like this, nothing got through. (00:36:15)
�Veteran: It got through when it was open but it didn’t when it locked up like that. The left
ventricle didn’t flush back. I had a surge of energy on that one. And that worked very well. so
that was—and so, I have been increasing my…I guess you call it exercise. Walking and toning as
far as that kind of thing. So, that’s been good. Now, in this time, when we first moved into
Roanoke, our children were—one of them was finishing up high school and the others were
coming along behind him. So, as soon as Andrew turned—the eldest—turned 17, I took him
down to Reserve Boulevard to the National Guard and we signed him up. He got in the National
Guard when he was 17 and then he went to Virginia Tech and got in the ROTC program and he
was also had his National Guard training, same time. And then he got into Highty-Tighties,
which is a really superb military marching band. They are on the caliber of what West Point has
or BMI. And so, they even marched in one of the inaugurations. I think Mrs. Roosevelt put the
lanyard around, inside out, on the uniform. And today they wear it inside out on the uniform. The
lanyard from her. So, that’s kind of a little tradition. So, he did very well and such and then
Shawn came along and he had allergies so he couldn’t get in at 17. So, he went into the Virginia
Tech and we checked him out with various doctors because I almost got—I almost didn’t get my
direct commission because I had this chronic whatever it was, sinus, and really it was seasonal
hay fever. And once they determined he had the same thing, then he got in the service.
(00:38:28)
Veteran: Now, David was—tore his—number 3 son, tore his leg up in a lacrosse game. They put
metal in it and the military will not take you because you’ll be a problem. And then when
Daniel—soon as he was itching to go down there—and so, he went down there and also got in
the National Guard at the age of 17. So, we started off the boys that way and then some time later
on, not very many years later my oldest grandson from my first marriage joined the Navy, went
�to Annapolis and now is serving in special operations. Married a woman who is also graduated
from the Naval academy and she’s a facility engineer at Portsmouth Naval Hospital. And so,
between them they gave us great grandbaby number 6 and 7 and each one is named after a Navy
Seal that has died recently. And that’s what they do. There’s a ring of them—not all ladies do
this—and that took our unit but many of them do so they are keeping their beloved comrades that
they have known alive.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, another side of things, I think before we began the interviews or
somewhere in there, you mentioned something about having multiple different academic
degrees. I think you talked about you had a bachelor’s degree, you had an MBA. Did you
go on to others at different points? (00:40:11)
Veteran: When I was at the Command General Staff College, I was teaching management and so
some of the leadership within the faculty would say, “Well, why don’t you work…You’ve got all
the basic stuff done and you came out with—at the top at the end of your class. So, all’s you
have to do is write a thesis that will cover something, either the science part or the arts part.” So,
I talked to them a little about this surveillance in depth thing and the arts part is knowing military
lures and postures and the implications of those things and the strengths and weaknesses and so
forth. And but the arts part—the science part was knowing how to use…and I used math as a tool
to structure the basic concept that implemented the surveillance in depth process. So, you take
knowledge of how to deploy the military forces within the context of what the math was telling
you. Because it would—you’d set the terrain up into little cells based on the geographic
structure. And then, you’d give it a unique alpha numeric number and then you’d run a…you
could run a…and I had a numbers book full of random numbers and you could randomly
everyday change that, the alpha numeric number, and you’d just send that out in classified mode
�and in there you would also drop in…you had a list over here and you could run the—run a
random alpha numeric number against that to figure out where to put these different things. And
if you have something that is duplicating here, you’d get rid of one and move it over here. So,
you’d have—you’d have some—you could make a decision. And when it was published, they
had the breakdown of the people and then whoever was going out into anywhere into this area
that you have restructured into alpha numeric portions of real estate. (00:42:50)
Veteran: Then, they would be told, “Well, today in this area we are going to have people and in
this, this area, we are just going to have surveillance. And at sundown, we’re going to have a
machine gun around here. We always have an aircraft helicopter drive by and just shoot the place
up and leave because it was an all-fire zone. If we had no fire zones, we’d make sure that those
were always blocked out. We just put visual on them and we would tell the enemy they didn’t
know the difference. And—or, if we were going to put somebody out and then we would do
something else and pick them up over here. So, we’d have no fire here and no fire here and while
they are moving, this stretch of real estate they are coming through we would just have visual but
no contact.” So, we tried to figure in all that. I wrote a paper on it. And it was voluminous, it was
terrible, it was unbelievable, but I was able to get it down to with charge graphs and a sampling
of the mathematical structure for all this in 125 pages. So, I got a master’s degree of military arts
and another master’s degree of military science. (00:44:09)
Veteran: So, I left that and then when I got out of the service in 2002, I was attending First
Baptist Church in Roanoke, Virginia and we got—our pastor had retired after 40 years? I don’t
know. Long time. And so, we got a new pastor in and he was an evangelist; he wanted to do
things. So, he appointed me as his mission minister and I didn’t have any formal training in that,
I just read the Bible and had Bible studies and all that stuff everywhere. And I belonged to the
�Gideons International, so I was out doing things and learning how to do those things too.
Speaking in churches about what God is doing around the world and the impact of having access
to over—into 215 countries, speaking 93 different languages fluently. Because they are all
natives. We just recruit natives and then turn them out. Alright, so he wanted me to do that. So,
what I did is I got into that and after…I got in 2002, so after 2003 or 4, I connected with a large
church in Atlanta, Georgia. Woodstock Baptist Church in Georgia. And I hung out with them for
2 years and they were training me, and several other guys around America, how to become
mission pastors because nobody—there is no training for that. You go to the seminary and
they’re talking all this other stuff, but they don’t touch on—they just say—they structure that and
then walk away. They don’t tell you how to do it. And so, they are teaching me how to do it .and
so, one of the things that you do is you motivate people in the pews to get involved. Okay…And
so, you tell them? No, motivate them. You have to get—you have to sort of get alongside of
them and stand up with them. (00:46:20)
Veteran: So, one of the first things we taught them was—and I went to the International Mission
Board in Richmond. And so, they gave me outlines of training that they trained missionaries, so I
brought that back and I started implementing that. So, they’d come out and I…one of the things
we teach everybody is how to be an intercessor prayer person, but walking. So, prayer walking
they called it. And but you could do it in your car when you were driving, eyes open of course,
and there’s all kinds of things you can do with it. And you’re not walking up to people and
saying, “Hey bub, my name is Roger. I am…Do you know the Lord? If you don’t, you’re going
to go to hell.” No, no, you don’t do that. What you do is you see people and you talk to God
about people instead of talking to people about God. So, some folks really got interested in that,
so they tried it. Maybe about 15 of them. And they went out trying this stuff and then we took it
�to Berlin, and we took it to different parts of Asia. We took it to China, Taiwan. We took it to
Canada. We did some other things too. In Canada we built a missionary center in Prince Edward
Island and also in Alberta. And then we came back to Alberta and built housing for students. But
we still went out in the community prayer walking. And the result—some things started
happening. So, they came back and told their buddies, “I did this; all of a sudden, that
happened.” “Really?” And so, all of a sudden, 15 became 30. (00:48:15)
Veteran: And then the other thing is that they taught the international level missionaries you got
to have a servant’s heart. So, if you were the missionary, say—it doesn’t matter where you were.
You could be somewhere in Kenya or somewhere in the world. And so, we’d go there. We could
be in South America with you. And you had a schedule and we had a schedule laid out but
sometimes, either weather or opportunity would change and so we’d get up one day and we were
supposed to go to the hospital and instead, we went to the schools. And you’d change that
because of the opportunity popped up. You don’t get that every day, so we’d go to the schools.
And the attitude of the men and women who went was we can do that. And so, that got out. And
they liked that. The other thing that happened was in doing that, we didn’t have always an
ordained minister in charge of the team. We had somebody that was interested in the country,
maybe had the language, something. Maybe they had an interest in it because their background
ancestry came from wherever. And so, they would be in charge, but they would have to come
back and let us know what was happening. And that became inflammatory after a while. So, then
the other thing that we did, when we had people visit our church, we would visit them. And some
people would visit, you know, for a week and go back a second week and then drop it. What we
did: we put them in by zip code and we built—we eventually built 20 teams of 2 or 3 people.
�And every Wednesday we would send out at least 10 teams. And it wasn’t the same 10 teams.
Well, some folks would go maybe twice a month, once a month. Whatever. (00:50:14)
Veteran: And so, that worked out very well and they liked the result. Same thing, prayer walking.
And then we had a 3 step way of approaching: you open the door and let them do all the talking
and you look for the hook and wherever the hook was lying, we’d try to share with each other
back and forth and that’s what helped build us into an even stronger group of people who went
out on the street. But you’d look for hooks and we’d learn—we’d share them with each other.
Somebody would say something about having trouble with a child or maybe they are having
difficulty with work or maybe they’re having a health problem or an anger problem. Or life a life
is boring problem. And so, those were hooks so we could open it up and show them some—a
little bit of scripture and a personal testimony. And they’d say, ‘Oh, that’s different.” “And
would you like to know this Jesus?” 80% of the time they said yes. It didn’t matter what
language it was in either. So anyway, that was working and worked that along up until about
2005. And while I was doing that, I finished two years with Woodstock and I still have
connectivity with the mission pastor. Still have it. I mean, I’ll see him 10 years later and I
haven’t seen him, he knows who I am because I will go to the International Mission Training
Center for something, maybe we are going to support something because we go there and we
encourage candidates that will become missionaries. And we love on them during part of their
orientation when they are first arriving. So, we get them set up in their five villages at different
parts of the world. And so, we get them settled in there. And so, I bump into these—this
gentleman once in a while. So, that worked well. (00:52:08)
Veteran: Then I went to Indianapolis, Evans Indianapolis—the Trinity Seminary—for two years.
And then I came back with all that background and writing and research and whatever reporting
�and infiltrating that into what we are doing in this mission outreach to the world. And got
involved with a New Life Bible Seminary. Whatever it was. A buddy of mine, he happens to be a
maintenance man at the Salem VA Medical Center, and he was the chancellor and creator of this
seminary. He’s a black guy so I was the only white guy going through the school. And they liked
that because I taught them prayer walking and he knew that and wanted me to do that. So, later
on I continued to do that. But I got a PhD in theology out of that, all that experience, plus writing
a thesis for him. And what I did is I basically summarized what I just told you about being in
these other places and what I picked up from the International Mission Board. And I did some
stuff for the North American Mission Board also. One of the things that Charlotte and I did by
ourselves: we went up to Prince Edward Island and—we planned this, we had been up there
before and I said, “I want to bring my wife sometime but I need some help.” And a fellow by the
name of…I think his last name was Welch. He was born in Entry Island and that island is in the
Saint Lawrence Gulf. It’s part of a chain of 6 islands and they call the 6 islands, the Isle de
Madeleine, Isle of Madeleine. And depends on the size of your map, you won’t even be able to
find the islands but if it gets large enough or whatever it is, you could see them. So anyway, what
we did: we spent 72 hours. We flew to Prince Edward Island, got on a boat for 5 hours. We spent
72 hours on 5 islands that connect with bridges and the Entry Island was here. Entry Island is
British and these were French. Now, it is all Canadian, but it is still English speaking here and
French here. (00:54:33)
Veteran: So, we landed over here; we speak French. Now, my friend, Brother Welch, he speaks
English, but he has—he also can speak some French. When we were boarding the ship, we were
going there with the intent of finding out how do you win those 14,000 people to the Lord? What
is going on on the island and then try—if it’s anything of value we can capture, we’d share it.
�Okay. So, on the 5 hour trip, we—Brother Welch bumped into some guy he knew and the guy
hated Americans and he thinks everybody that’s in Vietnam—or, not Vietnam…Well yeah,
Vietnam and later on places—should—good for them if they get killed. You know, doesn’t
matter where they are in the world, whether it’s Vietnam or Panama or some other place. And he
was just really mean so at—towards the end of the trip, we finally revealed who we were and he
just…he was just kind of quiet. He didn’t get pushy or change his decorum. Anyway, we didn’t
tell him a whole lot. You get on that island and you sneeze and 6 people will sneeze or say
“Gesundheit.” So, we—by the time we got there and we got settled in our little hotel, next
morning we came out and we were trying to figure out where do we go next? And a loud truck
went roaring by on the highway just right next to the hotel and squalled his breaks back down,
came down the drive, slammed on the breaks, jumped out and here is this guy that hates
Americans. He says, “You need to see my boss. I am in ship building.” Welch knew that; I didn’t
know that. (00:56:20)
Veteran: “I am in ship building. I build these sea-going fishing boats.” And he’s really—he goes
to this umpty ump Baptist church over here and I’ll bet you he can give you some leads.” Now,
when did that happen? So, we said, “Okay.” So, we went there. So, we went up the island and he
was way out. There’s this little, little thing that stuck out like that and then the building was real
long and the boat started with the hull here and when it came out the other end, it went out in the
water. And big—I don’t know how big they were. But that was how we got started on the island.
And so, what…Brother Welch knew everybody; he really did. I mean, he grew up on Entry
Island, went to school over here and he was with these people in business. And so, we met all the
leadership in any position. We met captains, sea captains now, this kind of trip. They also came
down the Saint Lawrence River to the Isle de Madeleine. And so, we met some of those in their
�homes and I took pictures of everybody. And then there was a Catholic church there. There was
a Jehovah Witness church there. And then this Baptist guy. And the Baptist guy, he was very
open to us and we interviewed him too. And we got information. We talked to everybody. And
then, we visited some of his relatives. They are in the fishing business. And one of them, when
we arrived in the morning about 7, he was just unloading his rig. He had been out there since
about 2 or 3 o’clock this morning and got a load of lobster. So, he unloaded, we went to his
house. And nice, modest home. It was well-built, could fight the weather because everything
froze—would freeze up—during the winter months and you—the only way you can get in was
by air. (00:58:19)
Veteran: The guy that was beating up on us was the pilot. So, he would fly in and he’d—we
engaged him and found out what he—he’s bringing supplies or haul out people that needed to get
a doctor’s appointment in Prince Edward Island or where. But anyway, so we met with him and
my wife said, “Oh, I saw those lobsters. Oh, it’s so wonderful.” And he said, “Do you like
lobster?” “Oh, yeah.” “Come back at 4:30.” So, he left. We left. And so, Brother Welch called
back to the house. What happens? “Oh, I am back. I brought back some of my fish. So, that’s
what I am going to cook now. I am putting them to boil now. It’ll get time to get—it’ll be ready
when you get here at 4:30.” And that happened to us over and over and over again. Everybody
was glad to see us. We met some people with some long, great stories. And they had good
contacts. The last person we saw was probably the most influential islander, person on the island,
was the editor of the Raraguerra [sounds like], which was their newspaper. And he’s kind of a
risqué kind of fellow. So, we walked in on that and he has one of his girlfriends there and so we
just greeted her like, you know, and she brought us some, I guess, coffee or tea. I don’t know
what it was. But he was really excited to find out what we were doing. We’ve come to
�evangelize the island. He says, “Oh yeah, this is a great place to come. And I have been here
since…” We knew this because we were briefed, and we took pictures of him. We didn’t take
pictures of his girlfriend. And he said, “Now, here is what you do: you want to evangelize the
whole island? What you need to do is Sam Lachlan, and he died, he was a millionaire. Had a
business in Canada but he—this is the place that he relaxed, went fishing, and relaxed with his
family. He left several millions of dollars and is downtown in our Department of Community
Services. And Sue Greenbridge is the director. She is the executive director of that operation. I
will call her and make an appointment for you. What you do is you volunteer. You volunteer for
her and you help people and as you are helping people, share your story, and you go from
helping to introducing. But if you just go and knock on the door and say, ‘You’re going to go to
hell unless you know the Lord’ that’s not going to work here.” (01:00:49)
Veteran: And he’s right. It doesn’t work in Poland, it doesn’t work in Czechoslovakia, it doesn’t
work in South America. That just does not work. But if the—India especially. If you show them
some truth and touch their lives, then they will be interested, and they’ll explore that. We aren’t
trying to start a church; we don’t need your money. None of that stuff. So, alright, so we got
then—he was really a hoot. He was a big help. So anyway, we wrapped that up, came home. I
wrote a 22-page paper with photographs and I sent it to the North American Mission Board,
because they’re in America, not just in outer area. So, that’s how I took care of that.
Interviewer: Okay. Now at this point, we have now taken a look at some of your postmilitary career and discussed your mission work and you kind of closed off the story of
going up to the Isle de Madeleine, Prince Edward Island, I guess, province but separate
islands and that work there. And I guess how do you…I guess, how do you see things
�coming together? What are you doing now or whatever that builds on all of that military
and post-military experience? (01:02:12)
Veteran: Ah, well while I was in the mission field for the church, even when they moved
somebody else to absorb it into his organization so he would be happy, whatever that is, takes
work to keep up with this stuff. But we got into Berlin several times. I speak the language and
that helped. And some really interesting miracles happened in our face during our prayer
walking. Why, it’s amazing. People walked up to us out of the blue and they said, “There’s
something different about you and we want to know what it is.” And they were foreigners, they
weren’t Americans. And that’s kind of interesting to se that happen. And so, that carries over
into what we are doing now in the sense that these people that were now touching in this ministry
we call—it’s not ministry, it’s a secular organization but it turns into a ministry and it’s called
Military Family Support Centers Incorporated. The reason why I am calling it centers, it’s with
the anticipation that it will grow in other states. Now, we have connectivity certainly throughout
the commonwealth of Virginia. But we are serving people in Maryland, West Virginia,
Kentucky, North Carolina, California, Texas, Arkansas, Pennsylvania. And because they get
ahold of our website and that’s how they get the people outside the states. But we also have
people in the surrounding states of Virginia who are members of our—either our reserve units,
our Navy Reserve, Marine Reserve, Coast Guard Reserve, Army Reserve, Navy Reserve, and
that kind of thing. (01:04:14)
Veteran: Or, are Air or Army National Guard in the commonwealth of Virginia. They live in
other states, but they are part of us here in the commonwealth. So, what we did in settling up this
Military Family Support Center, I was over at the church in my office doing whatever I was
doing and I got a call from the secretary, the pastor’s secretary, and this happened about 2004. I
�think it was in maybe summertime. I don’t know; can’t remember. And what it was: somebody
from the local armory caked and they were looking for a pastor to help them because they were
creating a new organization and they wanted to have some kind of a spiritual guide to round out
their team, whatever that is, whatever. And it is something to do with families. That was all I got.
We didn’t have a name. So, without telling anybody anything, the command sergeant major,
Tony Price, was the guy that was making the call. His immediate supervisor, superior officer,
was a lieutenant colonel by the name of Lapsa Flora [sounds like], a Vietnamese. And what was
interesting about his boss is his boss was in—grew up, born and raised, in Vietnam and when the
war came to an end, he had to flee to the jungle with his family. He was a child. And they ate
bugs. They ate anything. They just ate off whatever they could find in the land to eat. And so,
when he got old enough or threatened enough that he was now 18 years old, they would put him
in the transition schools they were putting people in, trying to get them converted to communism
or central government or whatever it is that they were doing. (01:06:18)
Veteran: And so, he left. He got on a boat and he came to America. He is a boat person. So, here
he got—he was adopted by a couple in…Boones Mill, I think, which is in…it’s a small town just
south of Roanoke. The Flora family adopted him and gave him their name. and so, they grew
him up in their local high school, I mean, local public school. And he qualified. His father had
been an officer or…I think so. He was a graduate of Virginia Military Institute in Lexington.
And so, whatever he did, whatever happened, he got him involved in that and he was a superb,
superior student. He just…he was just an outstanding student. His English was impeccable; he
got that way with it. And so, he was commissioned also in the Army. And I think at that point, he
was in the National Guard but nonetheless in the Army and through the years, he served
exceptionally well. And one was chosen to command the local battalion that was in Roanoke
�Armory. So, he was doing that and so he let his command sergeant major recruit this team, but
he was a major supporter. So, his unit is the founding unit and his upline was in desperate need
of help for military families. There is nothing out there for them because all of them mostly are
away from military posts, camps, stations, and forts. And so, if something goes awry…When I
was on active duty for so many years, I’d just go down to the local whatever it was and they
either had it there or they had the technician there or I could—somebody would show me how to
repair my car or where I could get…I could buy food or there was a food pantry or if I needed
something for the house, I could get a desk or a bed or whatever. And all of that—there was
something on post, camp, or station. There is nothing for these people. 67% of military families
live in rural areas. (01:08:45)
Veteran: So anyway, so they were enthused about this unit taking on this, exploring it. So, I
showed up and I didn’t tell them who I was, and they just knew I was from a local church. Hey
you. And so, the command sergeant major briefed him, introduced us to the commanding officer
who waved at us and walked away because he wanted that command sergeant major to get his
work—go to work. There must have been 35 people there: businessmen from all walks of life.
Some of them—I think 2 or 3 of them—had former military experience but everybody else was
just a civilian in some business venture. And the idea was—and some of the testimony we got,
there was a woman who lived not far from where Virginia tech is, 5 children, her husband was
deployed, and she was pulling her hair out. I mean, she was losing it. She was loud, aggressive,
and vocal. And so, to fix that, what the command sergeant major did, he went to the local church
and 4 or 5 of the ladies rotated at being a household helper with the everyday load just being a
good listener, a good conversationalist. And sometimes they went into stuff and then somebody
else would go get whatever they needed. And so, that kind of helped. That would be…that was a
�good example for others because they were sure there were others in then woods someplace, not
made known. So, that was passed to us. (01:10:22)
Veteran: And we talked about whatever our experiences were with neighbors that might have
problems, but they are not military. And then others talked about their military experience. And
then he asked me if I had any military experience and that’s when I got the bird floated out. And
so, I told him my experience as an enlisted man, also as an officer, and not only getting the help
in America but when I was in any foreign country. Same thing. And so, that means when I was in
combat, my wife was in a military facility, a family military facility. And only one time she was
off, she was away physically, out of the facility, but it was still she could go back on post, camp,
or station, and get something. So, she still had an umbrella. But these people Anthony was
talking about, they don’t have anything. So, alright, so I went to the men’s room, came back, and
I found out I was elected president. I am still president. And bottle washer. And I sweep the
parking lots and everything else. So, we started with that notion that we would do something. So,
we had to figure out first a name that would pretty much reveal who we are. And then at the
same time, we had to present it not only to the lieutenant colonel who was all for anything that
was positive like that but get together with various groups that were pro-military. Well, one
group is…The 29th division is a National Guard unit that is spread out. Part of it is in Maryland,
the rest of it is in Virginia. (01:12:16)
Veteran: And so, we had to go to the…we went to the leadership of that organization plus in
Virginia and Maryland, you have an adjutant general who is separate and distinctive, and that’s
structure. So, we had that to contend with. But a social organization they had called, ‘The 29th
Division Association’—the 29th Infantry Division—29th Infantry Division, none of that, just ‘29th
Division Association.’ So, we went to the 29th Division Association and they gave us the Post 64
�in Roanoke, and they are still around, gave us seed money. Our first seed money. We got several
thousand dollars from them to start something that nobody had out there. We looked on the
internet and there were no such nothing. And 98% of the organizations out there had all kinds of
things going on and maybe 2% had some reference to families but nobody was dedicated to
families. So, we thought that was interesting but also sad. We put this thing together with the
idea that, okay, we need money. We had to write job descriptions for who is going to—what are
we going to do and how are we going to do it and who are we going to do it with, and such like
that. And so, one of the first things that happened: we couldn’t stay at the armory because they—
that was under contract to be destroyed, eliminated. And plus, it might be some folks don’t want
to come to the armory to pick up groceries or pick up…maybe have a counseling session or
whatever they were looking for. So, we wanted to get into the community but still we were
limited. So, we went and got into Salem and we originally located our organization in the Post 3
American Legion, which is out in the community, a lot of room around it; it is really pleasant.
(01:14:28)
Veteran: So, if we had somebody come that needed a counseling, they could do it inside, or
sitting under a tree for more casual, and that kind of stuff. And in the basement, we had a food
pantry, a very modest food pantry that had clothing in it, bits and pieces of furniture and maybe a
few appliances. And I mean, it was a very small space. Very small, less than 1000 square foot.
Very small space. And so, we started with that and then we had a lot of activities. And the
activities—we would have the—to give the mothers a day…a break. We would take the
teenagers down to Adventure Land and wear them out. And then there was things to do. They’d
blow a whole day down there and we would feed them and all that. And the babies, we had
people who were qualified that we background checked. Everybody got background checked.
�And so, we’d take care of the babies. And so, the ladies—one time, some local Dodge dealer
gave us 5 vans. And we had drivers that were cleared. And they took them to some—one place
and they had sort of a breakfast thing and Belk’s or somebody had a fashion show for them and
then they went from there to some…I forget where it was. It was a shopping center, but they had
a couple places where we could, partial amounts, where some of them could start off getting a
pedicure while the others were over doing something else and then we would switch. So, we did
that for a while. And then we brought them in for lunch and dressed them up and they went to
one of the other ladies’ shops and got some things they liked, and they modeled those. And we
also gave them, each one, a $100 gift certificate to one of the—another place. (01:16:25)
Veteran: And that was the next place we went to. And so, we had a day like that. They had a lot
of time laughing and just carrying on, enjoying each other’s company, which they never got
together as a unit. And we were sort of just there. We didn’t…we were just there. We were the
driver or the…introduced the next point of contact where we go, where we headed. That—it was
a day of surprises for them. So, at the end of the day they were wiped out. So, we brought them
back to the American Legion building and had made a last cup of tea and got them quieted down
and reacquainted them with their children and then said goodbye. And we got some good
feedback from that, excellent feedback, very positive. But some of them would come back to us
because they started to mention some things to their lady friends in the unit and then they
decided to follow up with us. So, we don’t have counseling, but we have referrals, so we get a
baseline for them and refer them to somebody who we have vetted. We saved three—we saved—
we would have had to have insurance for at least 3 million dollars if we counseled.
Interviewer: Yeah.
�Veteran: We just didn’t do that. And our guys didn’t want to take a chance; they didn’t want to
do that. So, okay. So, that worked out fine. So, we had referrals. We helped them with the
children. Sometimes they needed extra assistance and so we would maybe coach the school staff
about this particular child. We would go in there and sort of advocate for the mother. And that
was very helpful. Then the next problem was what do you do…they are getting ready to have
dad come home. We had some ladies, so mom to come home, but mostly guys. (01:18:29)
Veteran: And so, the National Guard had some programs to help us with that. And so, we
brought them in at the right time, get ready for…it really is going to be different, you are
different, and you are going to have to work your differences out. And here is what is available
to you when those differences arise and that was important. That really paid dividends. One of
the things that was extremely important was that when the soldiers, sailors, Marines, whatever,
came back, we needed to acquaint them immediately, and they were told to do this, with the
Veterans Administration. They changed it to Veterans Affairs Medical Center. They had their
last dental check-up and a physical and questions. And that was important to get that done and
they got signed in. Some of them didn’t do that and it created a lot of problems later on. Some of
these guys became suicidal and we didn’t see anybody do anything, but we know that there was a
lot of guys…there was a number of guys that had terminated their lives when they came back.
And so, we eventually got them in the VA and the VA was able to do something or refer them to
some civilian, somebody that they trusted or whatever. So, we continued that. And then, there
was some financial problems going on at the American Legion. They needed space or they
wanted more of whatever. We didn’t have any more of finances to help them. So, some church
adopted us and so we moved into a church for about 7 or 8 years. (01:20:15)
�Veteran: And we occupied some empty…I think they gave us 2 offices and all their warehouse.
And we turned the warehouse into a food pantry, and they would come into us and we had hours
at least four and a half days a week, and phone calls. And they could get ahold of us otherwise.
And so, we provided food, we provided—we got out of the clothing business. If we could hunt
something for them furniture-wise, we would help them with it. If their car broke down, we had
somebody that would repair something for them, or we could get a discount and somebody in the
family could change the tire if they wanted to or whatever they did. So, that helped. And we
helped a little bit with utilities. We didn’t have a lot of money, so we had to be careful. So, we
did those kinds of things. We were there to listen, certainly. And then we had…and we continued
some of these other things where we had education. And we educated them on how to fill out
their tax forms and paying bills on time. One woman came into us and she was bankrupt, and
they were going to take the house or the car, I don’t know what it was. They were going to take
something. And she was married to a lieutenant commander of the United States Navy and he
was in the intelligence unit in Stuttgart, Germany. Boy. We didn’t know what to do with that, so
a local banker said, “Please refer her to us. We have a financial wealth management office and
one of our ladies will coach her and find out what the deal is.” Come to find out, she had a
checkbook and as long as she had checks in the checkbook, she had money in the bank. The
other thing is, she also had a lot of mail and some of it was opened and some of it wasn’t. The
stuff she knew maybe was from a friend or maybe from her husband or something like that, she
is opening that. But these other ones for—there were people that were dunning her, and she
was—they were hitting her with penalties and all kinds of stuff; she didn’t open those. (01:22:37)
Interviewer: Okay…
�Veteran: She had a pile of them. So anyway, the lady that talked to her was a professional. So,
what she did: she took—went through all of her stuff. And the personal stuff from hubby gave to
her and then took everything else and worked out a schedule to pay it all off. She was making—
she was getting $7000 a month and bankrupt. So, we took that as a key so then we started
offering that kind of orientation and referral to everybody because we figured I bet you there are
some others out there the same way. They might not have $7000 a month but they got $325 a
month or $479 a month. And so, maybe this would help. I don’t know. So, we started doing that
too. And then we started having games on any place that we haven’t opened a space, we would
try to have some kind of…you know, the bounce houses and some cooking and so they could
have a little family get together. We found out we needed to do some things with the units. That
battalion that battalion commander was in that we told you about in the armory? His battalion got
ready for deployment. 450 guys. And so, they went up to Wisconsin. We have a base—a training
base—up there and they were up at the training base for quite some time. And when they got
finished with the training, they had a 2-week break and then they would deploy. So, when they
finished with the 2-week break, they needed 8 buses to bring them back to Virginia for the 2
weeks and then they would be driven over to the regional airport and eventually end up in Iraq.
Kuwait and Iraq. (01:24:34)
Veteran: So anyway, they had enough—Guard had enough money for 2 buses. Now, I don’t
know what happened. Somebody bought a bus, we bought 5. We did. Cost $8000 and we didn’t
have it. So, we went around with a tin cup and we got $8000. And so, they—the bus company
went up there in Wisconsin and picked up the rest of the battalion, brought them all back, they
are all together. And they worked out an arrangement between themselves or some—one of the
bus companies, it’s a local one, Abbott was involved with this—and so, they said, “Okay, now
�when you are ready to go to the airport, we will pick you up at the armory, take you to where you
are going to say goodbye.” There was a church that said, “We will help you. And we are going to
have your farewell.” And they provided all the food, and the ladies cooked these really neat
things, you know, these little finger food things. Oh man, those were great. And those went
quick. And then, other things that they made…It was really nice, and they brought their families.
Can you imagine what 400 plus families? That was a large group, about 1200. And they brought
in a senior ranking general and I don’t know what he was doing but it wasn’t a farewell, we love
you kind of…I don’t know what he was talking about. Maybe the new armored piercing round
that they would get. Nobody was interested in it and it was terrible. But other—that was the only
thing that was wrong, didn’t fit, but everything else was liter—the community in that church and
the surrounding showed up and then just loved on these people getting ready to leave. (01:26:17)
Veteran: So, the guys got on the bus and were taken down to the airport and flew out. And I
don’t think we paid for that. They, somehow, they did it amongst themselves, that bus company.
Talked to the adjutant general; at that time was a guy by the name of Williams. And he said,
when we visited him in his office at Fort Pickett. My executive vice president and myself, and I
went to visit him, and he said, “We need what you are doing. That battalion commander can’t do
it without you. And we can’t stand at a street corner…You all are in civilian clothes. You might
have been in the military once but you are in civilian clothes today and you can stand out there
with a cup and get some money or something, or maybe somebody can volunteer something in
kind, whatever it is, and you can help our families. So, please keep it up.” So, we tried to keep
that connection. Although they can’t advertise us, they can certainly refer folks to us. Now, in—
there are some other organizations like the Wounded Warrior Project. That’s a national
organization. John Melia started that some years ago. And he was one of our national service
�officers; helped people to get benefits that they earned when on duty. And he developed that
organization and fielded it. First, taking backpacks to Walter Reed Hospital up in Washington
D.C. area. Wanted me to get involved in that. And we were just starting this, and he was just
starting his and his is going to the guys and ours is going to the family. Everybody was wanting
to send stuff to the guys but not to the families and so I declined. (01:28:17)
Veteran: He eventually moved to Florida and he is making very well. I get all volunteers except
one part time administrator. That’s it. And so, he went his way. But when they need food, they
come to us. The state of Virginia, after we got started and we went to some of their meetings in
Richmond where they are talking about strategies and stuff, about how to work things in the
commonwealth to include the military, the…They put some kind of appeal to the legislature and
they formed a commonwealth of Virginia Wounded Warrior Program. Not project, program.
And what they did, they paid for all the administration to run something that mimics us, pretty
much, not completely though but pretty much. And then so every dollar that was donated to the
Wounded—Virginia’s Wounded Warrior Program—went to the client. That’s excellent.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: But it is limited. So anyway, over the years we have worked with them, we work with
the other organizations that are invented for military and/or their families. And we are involved
with all of that but none of them feed. They do a variety of things, but feeding is not—they can’t
sustain it. So anyway, moving into current times, in 19…or no, in 2015, we had to move out of
that church because their youth program was growing so big. And we were enthused with that;
we thought that was great. So, we closed—we closed our food pantry and gave it all away to the
Roanoke County Salem Foodbank. It was worth $16…no. I think it was worth $23,160. Wow.
(01:30:43)
�Veteran: Non-perishables. We didn’t have anything perishable. So, we moved out of that and
moved into the Blue Ridge Public Broadcasting Services Campus, and we are there today. We
moved there in…and we opened up in June of 2015 and been there ever since. 2016 we decided
we would help veterans. We didn’t focus on the veterans, we just—people were actively
involved in the Guard and Reserve, in training and/or mobilization and deployment for…what is
it? Disaster relief? Anything. And so, we were there and then sometimes, even when things
were…they were in just a training mode, something would happen. So, we would try to help out
there too. So, that was good, so we invited the veterans. In January 2016, we had 1 or 2 sessions,
but 12 families showed up. Okay. By December, it was up to 30 families and so we had about
500 families that we fed, maybe, ballpark. And if—and we gave them at least 7 to 10 days’
worth of food. (01:32:08)
Veteran: So, I back it down and calculate it. If we gave that much food to these families of, some
of them only 3 to 5 persons in it, and we kept data on the adults and the children, we figured out
that we fed so many people 22,000 meals. And that does not include the special things that we
did. When the headquarters 29th division went to Kuwait on October the 30th, 2016, they had no
food for the 800 family members that showed up to say goodbye to their loved ones, so we paid
for that. And Wounded Warrior paid $200,000 and we picked up $51,000. Then we paid for that.
That’s where I met the governor. That is coming. Okay, so that’s fine. So, we continued on and
we came into 2017. In January, we had 30 families. August this year, we had 127 families.
Interviewer: Wow.
Veteran: We have blown almost $90,000 and provided for…it is approaching now 700 families
and we have fed over…over 30,000 meals and we figured by the end of the year it will be 44,000
meals and 795 families. So, that’s where we are right now. And we are stretched. We didn’t—we
�were not prepared for exponential functional growth. So, we are operating under a thread as I
speak to you.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, is this in part because the division headquarters deployed and so
you had more? Or was it just people learn about you and… (01:34:13)
Veteran: Word of mouth.
Interviewer: Yeah. And so, it never—it just expands.
Veteran: We have two things that are causing it. First of all, there are more veterans than active
folks. Somebody that is actively involved in the Guard or Reserve or an active unit, active duty,
full-time unit, that was the active community.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: Okay, that was, in the commonwealth of Virginia, maybe 8000. Veterans are half a
million plus. And so, we are getting that. And that’s just touching the folks that are here in
Roanoke Valley and the 5 counties around us, primarily. And then it leaks after that to start
touching the other people that come in. But…So, that’s where we are. And so, what we are
trying to—we are really struggling to—we don’t have a grant writer. I mean, I scribbled a couple
things and one of them hit and another one that was just kind of small hit, but I got one big one
that helped us. That’s the only reason we are through. And it’s kind of neat people give us stuff.
And I’ve got over $10,000 of income stuff and I am still picking up stuff from that—by the end
of the year, it should be $15-$20,000 of income. But once you get in it, it’s gone. And still in my
budget, we have—everything is automated now. I got an accountant that handles that. I don’t pay
him much. But what happens when I make an entry, I send him reports monthly about what I
am—I think we did money in and money out. The bank sends him a report and he computerizes
�the whole thing, hits some magic buttons, and it produces a budget. I have overspent $26,000 and
yet I got no bills outstanding. Now, how do you fix that? (01:36:09)
Veteran: It is paper. You can live on that, but the thing is what you need to do is have some
funds come in because this exponential function hasn’t stopped. And so, if I run out of income, I
have $12,000 dollars in hip pocket. That’s all I got left now out of a bunch. I had $55,000 in
2016 and we burned it up in 2017. But the idea is to keep the faith and folks…and we are trying
to—I am bringing a sergeant first class who is my first administrator. She is still on active
reserve unit. So, I am hoping she will be able to get good writing grants. So, that’s where we are.
So, all this stuff in the background is developing an environment for family. And where the
military can’t—where they have no—legally, they can’t…You can’t stand out on a street corner
on 10th and Middle in New York City with a tin cup so you get enough money to buy a new B52. You can’t do that. So, that’s what we are trying to do. We are trying to buy a new B-52,
locally.
Interviewer: Alright. Well, it makes for a really pretty remarkable story overall with a lot
of different pieces that interconnect in a lot of very interesting ways. So, I just would like to
close here by thanking you for taking all of this time out of your reunion this year to share
that story with us. (01:37:48)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
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TalmadgeR2152V5
Creator
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Talmadge, Roger S.
Date
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2017-09
Title
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Talmadge, Roger (Interview transcript and video, part 5), 2017
Description
An account of the resource
Roger Talmadge was based in Alexandria, Virginia for his last military assignment. He was responsible for managing military computer systems. He served as the senior chaplain at his base and ran several Bible studies. Roger retired from the military in July 1989. After retirement, he and his family moved to Roanoke, Virginia. He was hired by the Disabled American Veterans Organization. Roger was also responsible for running several thrift stores located throughout Virginia. In 1992, he became the Department Chaplain in Virginia, a position that he held until 2013. Throughout his time in the military, Roger was able to earn various academic degrees. He earned a bachelor’s degree in computer science, a master’s degree in business, a master’s degree of military arts, a master’s degree of military science, and a PhD in theology. After his retirement from the military, Roger became actively involved in volunteer international mission work. Roger eventually helped form a program that aids military families in fulfilling their basic needs. He has been the president of the program since it first began. Roger is committed to helping veterans and their families.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American
Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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In Copyright
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/392ee2a0b0be54183b13f0bccd7ccebe.mp4
f8c2d24eed3cce4b2ee2c9ee12894923
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/69c4b3a443f63ae36508c89e470a016e.pdf
74bc9b4eb3293c2d81320fb1a687c5ee
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Roger Talmadge
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interviewer: Alright, now we have gotten in your story—in your tour in Vietnam—in ’71’72 and we talked about a variety of your activities there. And rescuing orphans at the time
of the Easter Offensive early in the year. What else would you like to add on that?
Veteran: Well, as I was departing, I did discover I didn’t know who was on the ground but I
found out in later years who it was but I did find out that the Air Force, the 2-star Air Force
general—a commanding general for Air Forces in that part of the world. It was the…I guess you
call it Asian Air Force defense system or…But anyway, he was relieved because he ran bombing
interdiction runs into—over the DMZ, into North Vietnam, and destroyed a lot of those fuel
bladders. And I think that slowed down the assault of those T-76 Soviet tanks, amphibious tanks,
very effective tank, but couldn’t stand up against our light anti-tank weapon. But anyway, that
was a travesty because he saved a lot of American lives.
Interviewer: And then there was always that tension of what one could and couldn’t do.
and by this time, there were an awful lot of political handcuffs on military operations, even
more than earlier, because the country itself was essentially disengaging by then.
Veteran: That’s right.
�2
Interviewer: Okay. And then, anything else that kind of stands out in your memory about
that second tour in Vietnam?
Veteran: No, not really.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so now you get into the middle of ’72. The offensive was
stopped and they did manage to hold on. There were some parts of the country that were
occupied and weren’t regained but they did push all the way back up to the DMZ, around
Quang Tri. Okay, so things were stabilized, at least for the time being, by the time you left.
Okay. So, when you come back, now what do you do? (00:02:09)
Veteran: Well, I picked up my family. I had orders, a couple things, and I was transferred to the
Army’s military family…what? No, not military family—college for general and staff officer
development. So, I was—that was me. I got there in August of 1970…
Interviewer: ’72 now.
Veteran: …2. And it was basically a year long.
Interviewer: And where is that college?
Veteran: That’s in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. Still there today.
Interviewer: Yep. Alright. Now, was this part of a stepping stone to become a colonel or
lieutenant colonel? Or was this just…?
Veteran: It was a progression towards—for further assignment and evaluation to be potential—
did you have potential to be promoted. And so, and yes indeed. So, when I got there, I got in my
class. The class was a—there was 50 of us in each class. I think that’s correct. And we had
broken down into 4 groups. Somehow, they do that with that number. And so, we stuck together
�3
as sort of a team. And then you had within the team, you had sub-teams. So, you could say that
was a company with 4 platoons or that was whatever you want to call it with 4 elements to it.
And I think we had majors and lieutenant colonels in that class. And that was fine. Just about
everybody was a Vietnamese… Vietnam experience. There might have been one or two Korean.
I can’t remember. And so, they wanted to do things right. They wanted to tidy in and make us a
family. Not only a network of officers that could cooperate, work together in small groups. We
didn’t know that part. We knew that they were going to train us in something. And we weren’t
lined up in a regular schoolhouse formation. (00:04:27)
Veteran: And so, that went by and began to include the families in whatever we did socially. So,
we were all—pretty much all—living on facility. Had built some new housing. It was not the old
barracks. It was new barracks, in other words, for military families, not just the barrack kind of
configuration. So, I became a social…the—whatever you want to call it—chief of social
operations and activities. And so, we had some experience in that travel agency so here we have
another opportunity based on our past experience that my wife and I could work on. And we
tried to have something for the families, the students and the families, together or separately
throughout the year. So, we got started on that and there was other aspects that needed to be done
too. And so, those—whoever—each one of those elements had their own little leader. So, that’s
how we started. And then, we would…I guess our senior person was a class leader and so he
would have to report to the Command General Staff College cadre or commandant if the
commandant was interested, a 1-star, of what we were doing in all these areas to improve the
social side of it. They don’t want to lack that because you need to keep that. And certainly, that
would play into—as they were assigned to command and staff positions around the world, to be
that orientated towards having that building rapport side of the house. (00:06:26)
�4
Veteran: So, that turned out to be an adventure. One of the first things we did as an icebreaker:
traveled down to Kansas City and got ahold of their party boat and put about 100 people on
that—100 or 200. And rented the whole thing; everything. And then, so we planned that out and
advertised it and everybody signed up for it. All—couldn’t bring the children. You just had to
figure that out yourself. So, you had to get babysitters. We ended up with about 35 to 37 carloads
for all of us. And that was—some of them were vans jammed and all kinds of things. And so, we
got that ready and then I went to the military police and I said, “You know, we are going to leave
at a time when the traffic is kind of tough right on the Fort—military fort. We are going to have
to get out of here. So, I’d appreciate it if you’d just get that arranged.” Then I got ahold of the
Leavenworth city police and I said, “You know, we are going to be coming out of there and we
are going to hang up all your lights.” And they said, “Where are you going?” I told them. And
they said, “Oh, we know exactly where that is. Let me get back to you.” Alright so we get to
maybe a week later. They told me, “We got you covered. So, all’s you do is you come out of the
school parking lot. You got an assembly or something. Come out of the school parking lot and
you’ll have an escort to the boat.” (00:08:17)
Veteran: So, the military police were on the back end of that thing and on the front of that thing.
I had my two-way walkie talkie. You know, I figured I am going to get in here and talk. I had to
lead. I was in the lead car and the guy in the back was going to—I was going to talk to. It didn’t
even work. It didn’t work. It was a piece of junk. It wasn’t that stuff I was using in Vietnam. So
anyway, so we took off and the military police took us into—out onto the main road that comes
out of the post. And you make a left turn and you are in Leavenworth city. And the city police
picked us up there. And we made a right turn and came down alongside the river into Lansing,
Kansas. And they dropped off and the Lansing police took us down to the next place and the
�5
state police picked us up over there and crossed over here. And we finally got there and they had
us set up. They had a large parking area so we rolled into the parking area. And the only thing
they cautioned us: now you are getting on a party boat—you’re going to have a good time, good
food, good drinks…no drinking and driving. No drinking and driving. Gotcha. So, we got
onboard and it was a nice icebreaker. Folks got to know each other. Some of them were new. We
had some guys that were several—in a number of classes at the college at the same time. And
then, so they could get—they reacquainted themselves and we got close to each other and spent
most of the time with our little group. But still, knew some other people. And that was really,
really positive. But those other people were—they sort of showed up but it was mainly for our
folks. And but that helped us a great deal and also built some bridges for future engage—
activities. (00:10:14)
Veteran: So, that was a good start. And then the idea is when you do something like that, that
big, you got to outdo yourself the next time. Well, we had some smaller things that weren’t quite
as robust and didn’t stir up the place. We kept them on the facility or we would move it some
place and let them infiltrate. In other words, leave their house and meet us over in such and such.
So, we had a couple of things like that going on in the Leavenworth greater area. And also,
shopping opportunities. Set them up and possibly get them to discounts. And one of the things
that we had, which was tradition for the Command General Staff College, we would have dads’
night out shopping alone, just before Christmas. And this turned out to be a real challenge. I had
nothing to do with that but I was falling in line with advertising it and telling them where to go
and there was a lot. Kansas City opened the door that night just for these guys and they barred
anybody else from coming in the place. And just like when we went—I went on R and R to…in
Asia there. Where’d I go? I went to…
�6
Interviewer: You were in Taiwan once and you were…or…Did you go?
Veteran: The other place.
Interviewer: Bangkok?
Veteran: Huh?
Interviewer: Bangkok?
Veteran: Yeah, I went to Bangkok. And you go into places and you’d just be looking around,
because I’d like to get something for my wife, and I got some nice things. But they wanted to
show me—they wanted to give me drinks all the time. And I wouldn’t—I didn’t need that. So, I
drank a lot of tea and I had maybe a drink or something. But that…I wasn’t interested in that
because of the hot. You’d get sick. (00:12:21)
Veteran: So anyway, all these guys had been exposed to that same thing. Here we go to Kansas
City, Missouri, and we are being exposed to that. They’re just looking around. They are going
and looking at dresses and things, negligees and all…who knows, and jewelry. And they had
these bargains. And oh my goodness and I didn’t realize. And two police cars were sitting out
there. They’d been through this before too. And but our guys, the ones that drank, didn’t drive.
And that was the difference. They had some in other classes. They had arrests when they got
down there because other folks picked up and did that too before us years ago. And okay, so not
on our watch. So, these guys did pretty well and all of them came back. We didn’t have anybody,
quote, missing, unquote, for a day. None of that stuff. And so, they came back and we passed the
muster of being good, whatever that meant. Our wives weren’t mad at us for…They got upset
because of the money that was spent, so some things went back but that was later. The intent was
okay but it was a little bit overwhelming. So, I was very careful when I was shopping because I
�7
was short budget. But these other guys were also a short budget and they just really overdid it. So
anyway, that was really, really excellent. But we did some things with the kids with various
scouting programs. We had the Coast Guard cutter. We could get on that and do some things
when it was docked. Sometimes, later on, my wife and I joined the Coast Guard auxiliary and we
would take folks from our class with us. We bought a 25-foot cruiser that could sleep folks on it,
so we’d take folks on that. (00:14:20)
Veteran: Or we could do something alongside with the Coast Guard as auxiliarists and we’d go
rescue a buoy that got away and was floating around in that great big Coast Guard, which was a
tow boat vessel. It wasn’t—it didn’t have storage for hauling things but it had the strength to
push barges. So, we’d go into these sloughs and pull these things out. So, they liked that. That
was kind of adventurous. We had a hunt club, a fox hunt club. No fox. And they had maybe a
couple dozen of really nice horses and so we got them involved in that. You know, we would try
to get them involved with the local stuff and then do this with their families. And we kept doing
that. And then maybe we would have something special in the officers’ club. If not—in other
words, keeping on the post pretty much. And that was pretty much what we did to keep the—
building the morale and encourage each other. We also coached each other before each exam.
And I got pneumonia before a final exam, my tactical examination. Only once. A 4-hour
examination and I got pneumonia. And I didn’t know it; I was coughing and hacking and all this
stuff. And I got—I medicated myself and I went in there like this. And so, took the examination
and I didn’t think I did well at all but I had learned something when I was an enlisted man in
1957 when I took the intelligence course. They had a model for writing an order of battle report
to teach, or help, the commander understand the enemy weather and terrain. When I came to that,
�8
I memorized all of that stuff. I just—I had a core dump. I didn’t know what I was writing but I
got it down. (00:16:31)
Veteran: And I filled all the blanks too. I was probably the only one that did that. I got out of
there. I got a B+ on that. And I was half lit. I mean, all that medicine. Finally, they had to really
do some serious thing because I had—it was in my lungs real heavy. And that’s the first time.
And it opened the door for a series of repeats in years later. Got through that. Then, we got into
electives and I got into—one of the electives I was in had to go a year long. And it had to do with
systems analyses and other kinds of things using…systems analyses and operational
methodology. Something like that. It’s an executive level think tank skillset. And what it does: it
organizes your work in such a way that you can…you put it out in a plan and you work out some
of the details of it and then you execute it, keep adjusting it here and then when this comes along,
it will shape up and you finish with what you started with. And you might not be exactly where
you want it to go but you—it’s done. When you get finished, you have a better solution than if
you didn’t organize. So, I got that done. And got through the course rather well and graduated in
June of ’73.
Interviewer: Okay, so basically you have a year—you have an academic year, essentially, at
Leavenworth. Okay. (00:18:14)
Veteran: Now, they said—just like they did in MI school—you—some people in the course here
didn’t get orders. There were several of us. We’ve got an assignment for you you can’t turn
down. I heard that before. But I had no clue what I was going to do. So, what they wanted me to
do, and these other guys, they sent us all to a different university. I went to the University of
Kansas to get a master of business administration. I didn’t see that coming.
�9
Interviewer: Alright. Was this a 1-year program that you did or 2-year?
Veteran: It was 18-months.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: 18-months.
Interviewer: So, it was 3 semesters? Or…?
Veteran: Huh?
Interviewer: Did they have 3 semesters, essentially? Or…? So, you do fall—
Veteran: Oh no. Well, it was 2 years but I got it done in 18-months.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you finish in early ’75? Or end of ’74?
Veteran: End of ’74.
Interviewer: Yep. Okay. And now, what does your family do at that time? Did you buy a
house or they provide housing?
Veteran: I was in government housing and I rearranged some things and they have never seen
anybody come in and rearrange foolishness. They were this brand new. One of the things that
was foolish is you had a front door that opened this way, like this, and you had a storage room
where you put your gardening whatever that opened indoors. So, okay, so this is fine. This would
bang into this but you’d open it up and whatever and you could get in. But this took up all this
room. And so you—if I had a lawnmower, I had one of those push mower things, I’d push it over
here and have to shove it over here, do this, and then how do you get back in? (00:20:20)
�10
Veteran: So, that’s—I took it off the hinges and that thing opened up or came like this. So, this
would open like this and you got that out of the way and you’d go in there and open it up. You’d
go in and out so the door opened where you could get in and out direct to the lawn. And then I
put some fake—these squares, fake squares, on it and I painted the door one color and the
squares some kind of other complimentary color, but different. And I did that and I thought that
looked so good. So, I did that to the master—the front door of the house and boy the place
looked sharp. And then inside, we moved a few things around. Same thing: the faucets went the
wrong way because it would be hitting something. I changed it. So, they sent in—they inspect
everything. And we know that; we learned that in Germany. We always, every house we were in,
any apartment we were in in Europe. But we passed with flying colors. I was enlisted and now I
am an officer. I knew what to do. I mean, spit-shined everything. They looked under stuff and it
was clean, it would shine. Everything. It doesn’t matter what it was. So, they sent an inspector
over and he got halfway in the living room and he stopped. He said, “Now, I got to get my boss.”
And he said, “I’ll see you later, I think.” So, he left. So, his boss, the post engineer himself, came
by. And he walked through the whole place. Everything, even the pipes underneath were
polished. Everything. And so, he said, “I am not supposed to do this. This is a violation of every
code that we have. But you improved this place. Here’s your clearance. Good job.” He walked
out. (00:22:16)
Veteran: So anyway, my kids were involved in that stuff. I mean, they liked that. And Charlotte
was too. We repaired all the walls. You couldn’t tell where any pictures were hung. We repaired
everything. So anyway, so we left there and we bought a house in Lansing, Kansas. It was a
brand-new house. And they had bulldozed the property around it and it was clay. What do you
grow on concrete? It had no trees. It had a nice driveway. It was…I think it was 3 bedrooms. It
�11
had a bedroom downstairs and a bath and an upstairs that had another bath. I think that’s how it
worked. And a two-car garage. And I thought it was a rather sturdy house. We didn’t pay much
for it. So, we got it. And so, the whole family pitched in; everyone got involved. Now, while we
were getting pitched in, working on that, and while I was at the Command General Staff College,
the former spouse was causing trouble. I had to go to court and do this stuff and answer that
question and go over there and do this and do the other. And the—her husband would, to save
money, went and got himself a lawyer’s degree. I don’t know how he did it. And so, he tried to
represent himself and they let him do it. And everything was convoluted and she admitted to
molesting my two daughters. But anyway, during that process she was allowed to have visitation
with the children at her house. I didn’t trust that so I was very reluctant. I was upset. I didn’t
have plan B to go raid the place. So anyway, the first time they visited, they came back and they
didn’t come back with my son. (00:24:13)
Veteran: And nobody did anything. The judge said, “Is he in danger?” “Yeah.” But he didn’t talk
about value systems. They were teaching him how to be a pervert. Well, wait until you find out
what he was doing: he was doing the same thing that my dad did and he did the same thing that
his step-dad was doing. He’s an adulterer and an alcoholic with uncontrolled rage. That’s not
good. That is not healthy. My children were confused with all that and they learned how to—
accounting. My wife taught my first son, Michael, accounting and he remembers it today on his
paper route: how to account for everything, account for your money. And she helped him with
that in that process. So, he never really was long in that Lansing house. Our first year there he
was gone. So anyway, the rest of them we worked on the property. So, I went back on Fort
Leavenworth to the hunt club. Guess what they have in the hunt club? Great big manure pile.
And they mix it with dirt and then they mix it with—have to do it about 4 times because that
�12
stuff is hot. It’ll burn everything. And so, we put about 6 inches of that around the property. And
we lived there 6 years. And that—and the lawn just was—it was lush, it was beautiful. My boys
could cut it, I could cut it, my wife could cut it. It was really not difficult. And we put in a variety
of trees that were local. Even a willow tree that got 50 feet tall before it was struck by lightning
and then it blew up. It was gone. I had to cut it down, dig it out. But the trees were wonderful,
different kinds of trees: shade trees and flowering trees. And I put bushes all around and then
repainted the house. And then, we had the inside foamed. You could put a candle, in wintertime,
the candle on the dining room table and it’d heat the room. Really great stuff. (00:26:29)
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: And we did some other things but everybody did it together. So, that was really good.
And then they did well in school; the children did well in school. And about, maybe, in our 3rd
year in the house, we bought a 25-foot cruiser, a Starcraft whatever it was called.
Interviewer: Yep.
Veteran: And so, we could cruise the Missouri River. We learned how to fish. We’d swim in that
water and that kind of stuff. So, that was a very positive time despite all this interruption.
Interviewer: Right. And so, you said you spent 6 years in that house. Now, did you go to
different duty stations? Or were you able to stay in Kansas the whole time yourself?
Veteran: I was at one assignment: 6 years.
Interviewer: Okay, and what assignment was that?
Veteran: And that was the…I was—well, actually a little more than 6 years. I was 1 year—2
years—at the University of Kansas. Or, close to 2 years. And 6 years plus, a little fringy, plus
�13
in—as a member of the…staff. So, I had one year as a student at Command General Staff, 2
years in the college, and the rest of the time 4 plus so I had 6 plus years that were in Kansas. As
long as I was in that Lansing house, I was on staff at the Command General Staff College.
Interviewer: Okay, so now you are an instructor, basically? (00:28:07)
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Now, when I finished the University of Kansas, now I am bringing up a name now that
we heard before. And I have known this guy since 1963 or -4. But I got orders to…I think to go
to the Pentagon again. So, the commandant was a guy by the name of John J. Hennessey. So, I
went down to see him. I spoke to his secretary, “Can I see the general?” “Sure. Just a minute.”
And he hollered in, “Hey Roger, get in here.” I went in there to see him, sat down. And we
talked about things. And this is when Colin Powell was in the communication section of the
White House. He was being vetted. And the last time he commanded something he was a platoon
leader. He never commanded a company, a battalion, a brigade, or chicken. And he was being
raised up to general officer rank and also considered for 2nd star almost immediately. And John
knew about it; he told me about that. I don’t even know why he did that but he felt close to me
that he could tell me anything. He said, “What are you doing?” I said, “Well, I graduated from
here and then I went to the University of Kansas and here are my orders.” He took those orders.
He said, “Well, what would you like to do?” I said, “Sir, I’d like to—I’d love to be an author,
instructor, and do some stuff around the college here.” He said, “Do it. I’ll keep you posted.” A
week later, I got a phone call from his secretary: you are now going to be transferred when you
leave the college—you’ll be transferred and you’ll report to duties at such and such. I don’t
�14
know what they did but you know what they did. And I worked for him in the college that 4
years. 4 plus: some odds and ends added to that.
Interviewer: Right. (00:30:15)
Veteran: And so, I was teaching anything to do with management. And then I had elective
courses that had to do with computer science, team building, and some basic courses I had to
teach too that was part of the core. And I can’t remember what it was. But it still had something
to do with computers. Some technical thing. And I worked for a department and, you know, I
always had a lot of good close friends from West Point. So, my full colonel—I was a major at
the time-my full colonel was a West Pointer and he was itching to become a brigadier. And that’s
all I knew about him. Nothing. I’d see him in the morning, I’d look at him and he’d look at me.
And I did that for a while. And remember now, when I came back home, I had this new
beginning that I was in basic training, trying to learn what the Bible says. Anything. Anything.
And so, I got involved with some of the people: a George Kirkendall, a lieutenant colonel. He
was an artillery officer, I believe. And see, he took me under his wing. And he worked on
administration. I was in the teaching staff; he was in administration. So, he got me involved with
groups and post chaplain, and then a guy by the name of Jim Emmerman. You’ll hear about him.
He was a full colonel. So anyway, so I got involved with them and then they were teaching me
ethics and all kinds of things that the Bible teaches. And I started teaching these various classes
and I tried to learn some of the new things that I had learned in the core courses that I took when
I was a student. Plus, in some of the things, I got in touch with a PhD who was in the
management division also. (00:32:26)
Veteran: A very senior civilian. And he had me and a couple other fellows, 3 or 4 of us, to be his
understudies. And so, we taught a couple of—a pile of programs for small group dynamics and
�15
how to solve problems in small groups. And they were all straight forward. I mean, you looked at
things and you just sort of arranged them and you’d come out this way or that way and all of
them made sense. All of them were correct. It’s the idea—the process had to be correct to make
it—to get anywhere. He knew it and we knew. Well, we thought that was neat. And so, I started
teaching some of the things like that. Other things, you couldn’t do that because we were
teaching Fortran, COBOL. I had learned those before but I still had to teach them again. And
basic. And basic is what we used all the time but the others were—Fortran you needed for your
math stuff but the basic was good anytime. You could—and you could mix. So, then in teaching
the management courses, they gave me some latitude and but the course had to be approved. And
so, finally with that, I even used the Bible for references and never got in trouble. And Moses
was taught don’t waste your—by his son—by his father-in-law—don’t waste your time by
fooling around, having everybody come see you. Why don’t you delegate it? And I got—I nailed
that. And so, I introduced some of this stuff and then at some of the examinations we gave, it was
broken down into groups and the group had to work on something and then they get closer to
something as a solution. And then, they keep going until you come up with something. And
thank you. (00:34:26)
Veteran: And so, with that, on one of the occasions they allowed—they gave me an allowance
and I’d go to places and I’d buy toys. I’d buy some really weird stuff. And these guys are—these
are adult men: combat killers and all that stuff and whatever. And so, in one case I got Tinker
Toy sets. But I had—like every other collect—I had 4 groups. They were smaller. They were less
than 50. But anyway, maybe there were 28 of them in there or 40 or…but not 50. Anyway, so I
would give these 3 groups the regular Tinker Toys and I’d pour them out like that. I’d say, “I am
going to give you 3 questions.” And then I’d come in with this monstrous Tinker Toy set and
�16
dump it and it’d fall all over the place. “Okay, now what I want you to do, and you have 7
minutes, I want you to model yourself.” It went pretty quickly. I mean, they just zip, zip. A
couple things—the big guys, they must have had a hard time but they…model yourself. So, you
couldn’t do much with it but you did something. “Alright, now one of you tell us about
yourself.” So, he did and nobody—the rest of them didn’t say much. Alright, and this is what I
really got surprised about and it’s very, very real today. Take those kids and you’ll get the same
results. Connect with somebody next to you. “These are mine.” The other guy said, “Yeah, and
these are mine.” I didn’t say—I was getting mad at him. I had to walk out of the room the first
time I went through this. I came back. I said, “You have 3 minutes.” And all of a sudden,
they…so, they did something like that. Alright, so they did that. (00:36:29)
Veteran: Then I said, “Alright, the last question is: now, connect with your group.” That went
quickly. They really got busy with that. And not every year did it the same way. Each week—the
hallmark of this whole mess was when I said, “Make a model of yourself,” with the big ones,
they did something. “Connect with somebody else,” they took a chair and put it on the table and
put a guy in it and touched it. And then I said, “Now, connect with everybody.” And they put the
model all around him. The individual is key to the team. They got an A. The others did too
because they had rational stuff but it was different. Nobody built anything like that. Another
time, and the commandant was a brigadier and he was just a very gentle person with a keen sense
of humor, but he was dry. And so, he came in and I don’t care what you did. Here are the
questions. And I said, “You could present it any way you want. No Tinker Toys.” One guy came
in with a banjo and he was singing a song to Wild Bill. Wild Bill used to be a 3-star general that
ran trade oper—training command for the entire United States Army. Wild Bill come around
with me. Absolutely off the wall stuff that we couldn’t figure out because it was just…it was not
�17
developed. It was half thrown and grown. So, he was there and he’d have a refrain. All this Wild
old Bill, we are just going to get together, we are going to mash our teeth and we are going to get
‘er done, oh yes, oh yes. So, this general came in and nobody saw him. He came in back. I was
sitting back here and I was just…So, he sat next to me. He started doing this with his foot.
(00:38:32)
Veteran: He looked at me, he gave me a punch and said, “Good job. Tell him that.” And he
walked out. The guy that replaced…that was at my combat battalion, at the time that I was S-2
and I was leaving, a guy by the name of Louisell [sounds like], Lieutenant Colonel Louisell. He
came in during one of my—one of these last sessions. And we were getting ready for and then I
was giving them instructions, getting them ready, and we had some definitional things that they
asked before the final exam. So, he walks in and I am trying to finish those up. He said, “I got
something to share with you all. You don’t mind, do you, major?” “Oh no, sir, I don’t mind.” I
said, “You idiot.” Because I was furious because these guys were on a roll. They were getting
real—they were going like this. I said, “You couldn’t study for this thing. I don’t care what you
do, to go to bed if you get drunk or you stay sober. Whatever it is you do just know you can’t get
ready for this exam that you’re going to face tomorrow.” Anyway, so they were getting ready.
And so, he talked about how important management stuff is and this is an excellent course and
you got the best instructor we got. I don’t know where he got that from: best instructor we got in
this subject and stuff like that. And so, I expect y’all to do well. And as he walked out, he turned
to the group and said, “I don’t know anything about management,” and he went out and closed
the door and I said, “Amen,” and the place exploded. He never got promoted. He never got
promoted. (00:40:13)
�18
Veteran: But they had their exam and they all did well. So, that…so, I did a lot of that kind of
stuff and that was kind of fun and serious stuff was we had some people that were over stressed
and so I also had a—I taught the entire class on stress management. And I didn’t know anything
but I did a lot of research and I had stories. And we went in the auditorium and we taught that
and one of the former…one of the former leaders we had, the generals we had, over the school
was…he was obnoxious and he was loud and aggressive. It wasn’t Louisell but he was like
Louisell but he still had a side that was really…he meant what he said, in other words. And he
came in and I said, “Oh my goodness.” And so, he said, “Let me introduce your instructor.” He
was a 3-star at this time or something. And so, he mentioned me and talked about yeah, you got
the best instructor we got to teach this subject. I never taught it before in my life. And so, I don’t
know what he was talking about but he was in one of those moods. He was a 2-star and he was
the colonel I told you about when I was working in that same—okay, this guy left as a brigadier,
got promoted and came back. And one day, I came in and I had been through some of these
courses about forgiveness and so I decided I got to take the initiative to build rapport with this
colonel who wants to be promoted. He got one—I think he got that one promotion. And then he
got another one. So anyway, I came in one morning. I came in about 6:30 and he was coming
upstairs, came in and walked into his office and I hollered down the hall, “Good morning,
Colonel—” whatever his name, “—Jones.” And I walked in the office and I thought, well that’s
embarrassing. I just made a jackass out of myself. You don’t holler at anybody down the hall.
Whoever heard of that? (00:42:40)
Veteran: Anyway, I went home and I shared that with Charlotte. She said, “What do you call
that? Progress or failure?” I said, “You know, I got to think about it. It was progress. I was
getting over myself.” Well, I did that for about 6 weeks. Every morning that I’d see him; I didn’t
�19
see him every morning but every time I saw him in the morning, “Good morning, Colonel
Jones!” And he’d look, you know, as if nobody was there and I’d go in my little office. Alright.
Time passes and I am walking down the stairs from the second to the first floor. I said, “Good
morning, Colonel Jones.” He said, “Good morning, Rog,” and I almost fell down all the stairs,
boom-boom. And had a good rapport with him. Now, on one of these occasions, I gave an
examination based on synergy. And every—the class I taught, they all got lousy scores. And he
counted that as a training event where I would learn something. And he gave them all high
numbers for putting up with it. Oof. I didn’t know that that existed. I didn’t know that that
existed. So anyway, that was kind of fun. But he said, “This is very important because we are
having trouble coming in the ranks with stress management. We don’t know how to handle stress
management.”
Interviewer: Now for context here, now we are talking kind of mid-late ‘70s. That’s a
period when the Army, I believe, is reducing itself in size. You had phases—
Veteran: They had a riff going on that would choke a horse.
Interviewer: Yeah. So, these people who are trying to make careers in the Army, you have
to keep moving up or you’re out, essentially. (00:44:23)
Veteran: That’s…no, that’s right. And the mediocre and some of the really sharp ones were
eliminated.
Interviewer: Yeah. So, there’s—there are reasons for the stress issue beyond maybe just
the normal ones at a regular time. Okay.
Veteran: But this PhD was a good, good…he was a good source of encouragement. He’s a
mentor. I didn’t have a mentor. He was one of them. And so, that was important. One of the
�20
other thing is in 1976, I was still teaching there but these guys—this George Kirkendall—okay.
He called me to a meeting and they were having a—some kind of a Bill Glass crusade in Rona
proper and they had a group going in to the U.S. Disciplinary Barracks on post and also the
Leavenworth big house downtown. And also, the ladies’ and the men’s prison, state prison, in
Lansing. And so, George said, “Why don’t you go over to the Disciplinary Barracks. Come to
our meeting and then go over to the Disciplinary Barracks.” He already coached everybody
because he…George knew all of us. So, I went over there and I met Bill Glass and also Roger
whatever his name was. A football player.
Interviewer: Staubach?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I mean, I was with him about 3 times, a couple of places. Anyway, went over there and
I wore my bib overalls. My number was 65. They didn’t know I was an officer at all. And so,
went through a couple of days of that. It was a great learning curve and these people that are star
athletes would get up and give their testimony and then we would sit with the guys and process
that. And then you’d go to another event where somebody would do the same thing but a
different kind of a presentation, same format, encouraging guys to get out of themselves and get
into something that would give them some really hope and courage and stamina and energy.
(00:46:42)
Veteran: So, all the right things. And so, the Lord laid it on my heart to show up on Sunday in
my uniform. I was in my dress A uniform. You know, my cord and combat junk and stuff that
you wear. And I wear my bloused boots because I was airborne qualified and I used that. So, full
�21
blast he saw me coming. He said, “I was praying for somebody in a military uniform to show up
but I didn’t know who it was.” So, I gave my testimony. And that helped. And that helped me to
get out of myself but it also helped them to get out of themselves. So, for the last 2 years I was at
Leavenworth as an instructor, I was on Tuesday nights in the prison. And at some—one point, I
got close to a guy by the name of Sonny Knight. He comes from New Mexico—Albuquerque. I
think what he did is he had a disagreement with his first sergeant and he cold-cocked him and
they put him in prison. I don’t know how long. Threw the key away. But anyway, so he was in
there. And so, he said, “You know what?” after being with him for 8 or 9 months, he said, “It’d
be nice if…could you come and see me on a…you know, the weather’s getting kind of nice,
could you come see me sometime?” So, I gathered the kids and Charlotte, took a picnic basket.
They checked it all out and we went inside the compound and had a picnic with Sonny. Did that
about 4, 5, 6 times. And I always sign in: it would be Sonny Knight, his name and my name,
Roger Talmadge. Relationship: family member. (00:48:27)
Veteran: And the guards? Yeah, okay. Because they’d see me on Tuesdays too. And the chaplain
would come over there and wave. He never came in; didn’t monitor anything. So, those guys
taught me more than I ever taught them. They were reading the Bible every day. I read it when I
could but I couldn’t—I never did study it to that depth. So anyway, just the last year while I was
there, some months later after I was getting ready, before I left in ’78. Okay, so before I left, and
that was in June or July, but anyway I came in that Tuesday night and it was raining out and just
really not a very nice night. And some—I heard this voice that says, “Hey bub.” Oh, it’s a
military policewoman. I said, “Yes, captain? How may I help you?” “Well young man, you come
in here and I have some questions for you.” “Alright, yes ma’am.” “You visit—you come
visiting, don’t you, on Sundays?” “Yes, ma’am.” She said, “Well, the record shows that you’ve
�22
been coming in here several times on Sundays visiting Sonny Knight.” “Yes, ma’am, that’s
correct.” And she said, “You bring in your family too, don’t you?” Where is this going? “Yes,
ma’am.” “Well now, you marked down it’s your family, all of you, family to Sonny Knight and
he to you.” “Yes, ma’am.” “But he’s black and you’re white.” I said, “Captain, took you 3 or 4
months to figure that out.” I walked away. (00:50:20)
Veteran: That was stupid. But that’s the kind of thing—and that really helped me too because I
got some other situation that I am going to get involved in. My wife went to the women’s prison
and I’d go to the men’s prison in Lansing. I got in the big house and those guys are older than
me, all white-collar workers. I mean, they extorted some money I couldn’t even count that high, I
don’t have that many feet and toes. Toes and fingers. And they said, “Well young man, you came
to see us? We don’t care what you tell us but just as long as it’s from the Bible.” And they were
mentors. They were really good mentors. That’s a hard place to get into unless you’re in trouble.
But that—I don’t have anybody follow—I never got a follow out of them. While I was at…No, it
was later. Okay, we left. We closed shop and put the house up for sale and headed towards
Washington D.C. for an assignment not to the Pentagon but to the Army Military Personnel
Center. Personnel Management Center. And that’s in Alexandria. So, I came up and just before I
left, my Jewish boss, who replaced the colonel, called me up and said, “Hey Rog, I want you to
put your blue, you know, your green uniform, your class A uniform and come over to the
college. We are having a little formation; we would like you to be there.” “Yes, sir.” I didn’t ask
him why. And I got there. My wife is there, my kids are there. Alright, well maybe we are going
to have ice cream and cake together. And they promoted me to lieutenant colonel. (00:52:19)
Veteran: And so, my boss was Jewish. And I used to greet him in Hebrew and he’d answer back
to me in an appropriate manner. And I’d send him…what is it? Gifts for Passover and he’d send
�23
me plates that had the 10 commandments or something about Jesus is risen or something. You
know, he’d send me this Christian stuff. Anyway, so he said, “Roger, you got something to say?”
I said, “Sir, praise the Lord.” He said, “I knew that. I knew you were going to say that.” And that
was the end of it. I didn’t say anything else. So, that was that. And we still have that friend. He’s
a wonderful man. And when I got sick there, I thought I had something really wrong with me.
He’d come visit and his wife would say, “Mazel tov,” which means “Well.” And so, they were
really sweet to Charlotte and myself. So, I left them and ended up working for a gentleman in
Alexandria. He was a Signal Corps officer, a very fine gentleman. He was a Signal Corps officer
that…he was a colonel and he had commanded large units, small ones, bigger ones, and bigger
ones. And this is one of his staff assignments. And he had been in the Army a long time. So,
that’s why I started working for him. And my job was administration. In other words, taking
all—taking anything to do with computers and reducing whatever they are doing to some usable,
readable form. So, I did that. They were processing: there were 5 different skillsets that they
were asking for in the combat support arena. That meant corps of engineer, chemical, military
intelligence, and two more. And so, those—they would recruit those and vet them and study
them and recommend them to boards for a promotion or school. (00:54:32)
Veteran: And I would process. They’d come up with this work and I’d process that and give it to
them and they’d send it to the place where that would happen. And I did that from ’80—I mean,
from ’78-’81. I was in that as a brand-new lieutenant. I mean, they just shined. It was ridiculous
how bright they were because there was no dust on them yet. So, I got in—I was in there for
about 10 days and remember this—remember I mentioned Jim Emmerman? That word is coming
back now. So, I had a mission to do and so I sat at my little desk and these guys are over here
and my ladies—I had a bunch of ladies that did all this administration—and they were a hoot.
�24
Later, I moved my desk over there because why would I want to be on the outfield when all the
work was going in here? And the executive officer was here and the division chief was here, the
full colonel. And this was under a director, which was directed by a brigadier general. So, he had
the officer’s director and then these guys had combat service and combat service support
assignments, education. So, I—that happened later. But anyway, here I was sitting at this desk by
myself and these guys are charting away and they ignored me because the interaction was with
this. This people were crunching their work. So finally, the 10th day I came to work and I got up
enough guts and I dialed a phone number to the commanding general’s office, General Heinz.
Hayes. Haines, Haines. And the secretary answers, “General Haines’ office.” I said, “Ma’am,
this is Lieutenant Colonel Talmadge. I am new to the command. I need to speak to the
commanding general.” (00:56:27)
Veteran: She says, “He’s busy.” “Yes, ma’am. I still need to speak with the general personally.”
“He’s busy. I’ll take a message.” I said, “Ma’am, you will not take a message. I do have a
message you can give him though—you can give him. Tell him Jim Emmerman has sent an
ambassador to see him with a special message and it is Lieutenant Colonel Talmadge. T-A-L-MA-D-G-E.” And I hung up. Three minutes later our phone rings on my desk. I pick it up.
“Lieutenant Colonel Talmadge.” “Sir, he will see you now.” So, I went up to see the general. He
was on the what floor and I was on the 4th floor. I’d go up wherever he was. Walk in, introduce
myself to her. She said, “Just go right on in.” So, I did. I opened the door and said, “Good
morning, General Haines. How are you, sir?” “Have a seat, son.” I sat down. And you know how
soldiers are: they talk about soldier stuff. He was airborne and he did his stuff and I didn’t have
my stuff on but—and he didn’t chuck me out. I just told him where I had just come from and he
said, “Oh, you were at—yeah, you were teaching at…down there and doing those things. Yeah,
�25
yeah, John Hennessey used to be the commandant there.” I said, “Yes, sir. I served with him.”
And okay so… “Now wait a minute now, you have a message for me?” I said, “Yes sir, I sure
do. It’s a personal message and I got to eyeball you to tell you. I got to look in your eyes and tell
you this message. And it comes from Jim Emmerman” “Yeah, he was my chaplain when I was
brigade commander as a colonel, that lieutenant colonel at the time, lieutenant colonel chaplain
would call me up and remind me every Friday about what my priorities ought to be on Sundays.
So, what did he tell you?” (00:58:25)
Veteran: “Well, just basically the same thing, General. Be sure this Sunday to be in chapel.” He
said, “What?!” he started laughing. He said, “That’s the message?” I said, “Yes, sir.” “Well, I
believe it.” I said, “I got another purpose for being here. You know that?” He said, “Yes sir, I am
sure.” To me, he said, “Yes, I know. I am sure.” And I said, “Well sir, it is: I also learned that
you assess, you train, sometimes to a full retirement, your enlisted and your officer chaplains.”
“Yeah, that’s their job.” “It is but you don’t have a chaplain assigned to this command. This
command has 2500 people in it. Half of them are civilian, the other half wear this uniform.” And
so, the general said, “What? And? So?” I said, “Well, I am your new—I just came up to tell you
that I am your new senior chaplain.” He says, “Great, Colonel. Get out.” So, I left. I don’t know
how many days passed. The secretary calls and says, “I am still sitting there. And furthermore,
the general wants to have a prayer breakfast in January like all the big boys in the Pentagon.”
“Hmm. Okay.” You know what happened in January, 1979? In Washington D.C.?
Interviewer: I should…
Veteran: It locked down all of the metro system.
Interviewer: Okay.
�26
Veteran: Knocked out a lot of electric lines. Caused absolute bedlam in the city and the county
areas.
Interviewer: Was that a blizzard? Or…? (01:00:13)
Veteran: Absolutely. And 200 people showed up at our little boys’ prayer breakfast. The general
was happy with that. He thought that was cool. And what they did, the office did, ordered up
some lieutenant general—I don’t know who it was—and he came in to give a talk. And so, we
had some music, we had a guy give a little introductory introduction and prayer, we had another
guy get up and offer another prayer in Hebrew. Sing some more. And then he was introduced
and he got up. He says, “I come from the desk—I mean, the desk operations side of the house.
And I am one of the executives there.” I don’t know who would outrank him; I don’t know who
it was. But nonetheless, he was in operations. And he said, “I am prepared to give a presentation,
about 25-30 minutes, on the deterrent measures we are taking against the Soviet armored threat. I
think I am in the wrong place.” He gave his briefing and they applauded him. It was dead. I
mean, many people who really didn’t care about religion were really attentive. I don’t think they
made notes. So, he left. Anyway, I went back up the front office and I also bumped into a general
who was in—he was another director. You have the director for officers, you have a director for
enlisted, and then you had a director for something else. This was the guy, I think, for enlisted.
His name was Mitchell and he had his aide get ahold of me and so I came over to see him. He
said, “Can I be your helper?” (01:02:10)
Interviewer: Okay. Now, so we made it now to January of ’79. You have made yourself
essentially the head chaplain of the unit you are working with. And you were talking now
about having tried to stage a prayer breakfast and then an officer from another unit has
�27
now asked to be your assistant, named Mitchell. And if you can pick up the story from
there?
Veteran: Yeah. Okay, so I was the senior chaplain. I had no administrative help whatsoever from
anybody, or any juniors. So, I had to recruit those. Also, General Mitchell was a director of one
of the enlisted directorate and my senior on my side, on the officer’s side, was also a brigadier
general but he was in charge of the officer assignments and stuff. But General Mitchell put out
the word that he would— “Oh, I’d love to assist with what you’re doing and maybe coach you.”
His first advice to me was, “You’ve got to go up to that front office and tell them that you will
make recommendations. They will choose from those recommendations because you know what
the program looks like and how the flavor of it will carry the day. Sending somebody from the
deputy chief of staff of operations would have been good to send to Fort Knox to the armor
school. Or Fort Benning to one of their schools. That kind of environment.” So, after that for
quite a while, the following years I was there, I’d make those—make some of those
recommendations and it worked just fine. And we had no trouble. Let’s see now…
Interviewer: Just for reference at this point: so how long were you in that job? How long
were you at that place? (01:04:06)
Veteran: I was at that place until 1981.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright.
Veteran: Alright, now I then received orders to Fort Huachuca, wherever that is, in Sierra Vista,
Arizona, which is 70 miles…I think it’s southeast, I think I have that right, of Tucson, Arizona.
And I was to be the deputy chief of staff for personnel and community activities. It had a payroll
that exceeded any—well, exceeded the state of Arizona, for one. It had everything to do with
�28
personnel management, civilian and military. It also had to do with morale and anything what
you could do to improve the morale of not only the military personnel but maybe civilian
personnel that were working there as regular folks, and then the families. And then it had
anything else that would come along with that, such as—well, in the morale area, as part of it,
they managed all the clubs: officer and enlisted clubs. The…what is it? The pro golf course.
They had the skeet business. Skeet shooting. You also had the only military, Army military, herd
of horses and a mule, the one that’s in the parade when the boots are in backwards of our
president when deceased. And that one is out there. And then, you also have 5 bulls that you use
for…you make a lot of money on those, they said, in your rodeos. And people pay good money
to get bucked off those so you can make a lot of money on it if you know how to handle it.
They’re also in charge of the library and the post exchange and anything else we can think of that
would be having to do with personnel wellness and so forth. (01:06:21)
Interviewer: Okay. Did you take this job?
Veteran: Oh yeah. I didn’t know what it was. It was equivalent to a battalion assignment. I got 10
divisions with over 11,000 personnel, civilian and military, working for me directly. And some
of the—two of these civilian positions outranked me. I was lieutenant colonel and they were
SES-14s. I mean, GM-14s. I should have been a full colonel. I took it. I was a young lieutenant
colonel. So, I took over that job and when I got there, we bought a house right away because
there was nothing on post. Everything was too small. I had all those children. I had 5 children by
then. And so, we bought a house with a little swimming pool in it and then set up camp. I didn’t
know how long I was going to be there. Who knows? I could retire. And then, they sent me to
school for this particular type of work. And General Elton, who was the deputy chief of staff of
personnel now, he was a 3-star. He wanted—he was putting a lot of emphasis on that in order to
�29
solidify the health and wealth and whatever you call it, progression, of our military and civilian
communities, but their families of all things. And so, all of these had something to do with that. I
was even involved with a hospital from a gentleman’s standpoint. But I had no authority but I
certainly took—I got involved with them as—trying to—what can I do for you role? So, I’d ask
them what can we do for you? Same thing with the chapel program: all morale. Your health is
important to us and, spiritually, your growth. So, I got into all of that, and even the school
system. Now, I was in charge of some things to do with the school system. (01:08:21)
Interviewer: Did the base have a school system? Or is this the one just in—
Veteran: Oh, we had an elementary school that was very good. We had a middle school
downtown and a high school downtown. So, the elementary school was something we took—we
didn’t direct anything but we just oversight that the facilities work well, the right kind of people
were recruited and competent, and also were very, very positive towards our military and civilian
family. And that’s a remote site. So, they get special attention. And he wanted to make sure that
he had that kind of an environment going on; he demanded it. So, I went to school for that and
did quite well in the course, got through it. And networked with people who were really good at
this stuff. I wasn’t in personnel management; I did other stuff. Yes, I was in the personnel—
Army personnel command there, center, and but that was pushing paperwork. Other people knew
what they were doing. I didn’t know the indices or policies but I knew of what I needed to do to
process, to ensure, the success of it based on the recommendations of those who authored those
kinds of documents and the seniors supporting it. They’d give me guidance and our people
would—we would respond to that.
Interviewer: Okay. And now, Fort Huachuca is—one thing it is stilled used for—they do a
lot of training of intelligence officers there and there’s a lot of that kind of thing going on.
�30
Veteran: That was one of the—intelligence was one of the branches that we serviced. So, I knew
a lot about them but not the process of getting them into it and so forth.
Interviewer: Alright. And how long did you stay in this position? (01:10:11)
Veteran: I was in that position…until 1983.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: So, that is ’81 to ’83.
Interviewer: Alright. And when you look at that time, what in particular stands out about
that experience or things that you did there?
Veteran: Well, we invented a few things. I was learning and I really networked hard with
anybody that I knew in Washington D.C. in morale welfare kinds of things. And also, financial
matters. I got close to one full colonel in the Pentagon, in these matters, and with his support and
guidance and stuff like that, we put together proposals and we won 43 million dollars worth of
improvements to Fort Huachuca. We rebuilt everything that was standing still, basically. Took
all the pools down to ground level. I mean, kept the shell but—and rebuilt those. And instead of
having 5 corps of engineer people walk around, testing the water multiple times a day, we put
these drip line computerized systems that if an inkling of anything changed, it would put the
right chemical in at the right time with enough leave time that by the time it was noticeable in a
whatever scale that was that it was watching, it would be back to it’s normal. It didn’t take long
for all of those. And we had I think two outdoors. At least two outdoors and…and one indoor
pool. The one indoor pool was an Olympic pool. We redid the whole thing. We put baffles in it
to make a difference. So, you could do—you could work your laps and you put the baffles in it
and you could work it as a measured lap. So, you couldn’t go this far but you could go half and
�31
back and still get your practice. And then, when you were in any kind of competition, you could
swim the full length and have that experience. (01:12:30)
Veteran: And the first thing I did, I started with the enlisted fieldhouse and made an enlisted spa
out of it. The officers were really…ooh, they were really…They thought that was alright. But the
enlisted men gained by that because it had tile in it, it had a great shower system for that, it had
good, good equipment for all kinds of ways of exercising. We put in an array of…what is it?
These…solar system? And it heated the entire water system for them for showers and a pool and
all that stuff. We could regulate all that. And it was just absolutely like a spa. And colorcoordinated. It really looked sharp. The only thing that the general, the 2—I think it was a 2-star
general—he wanted security in that place and nobody could figure out how to secure the place
while it was open. I didn’t have enough people to be on duty to keep them from coming in all the
doors because they had a lot of fire doors in there. So, finally I traveled different places in the
United States and I went to one place and they had these doors like you have here, with a—
handles on them. And—the ones with the push handles? And they simply put a U in it, dropped it
in there, and you couldn’t open the doors. So, I came back and we made a whole bunch of those
and all the doors were closed during what had that hammer down on it when the place was
closed. When it opened, it would open because it would be off because you had to have easy
avenues of egress. (01:14:17)
Veteran: So, people couldn’t sneak in there anymore. They came in the regular way and then
these doors would lock so they’d come in the regular way. And if somebody wanted to go out
those doors, they could go out the doors. We’d keep the U’s out of them. So, we met the fire
code. And there were some other things that we did too. But I got eaten up on that pretty badly.
The food in the officers’ mess was always a mess. We redid that color-coordinated because I had
�32
some artillery officers—I had some stuff that looked like Irish or Scotch design, whatever it is,
bright red for runners. And those officers liked it, especially a retired major general who lived
downtown. He came in and he loved it. So, he became my consultant. He said, “Can I be your
consultant?” I was a lieutenant colonel at the time. He said, “I don’t care about that. I want to do
this.” So, he helped me with all of it. We redid the non-commissioned officers’ club. He was
interested in that. And then, we redid the enlisted club too. And we made a feature in the noncommissioned officers’ club: we want you to make your profit in food, so we got after some
folks that knew how to cook well. and we started making money on that stuff. You always can
make money on alcohol. But we were trying to downgrade alcoholism and so that began to take
form. And the chapel program, I brought the Gideons International onboard. I was a member of
that already. And I used to pass out Bibles at the elementary school, when they’d come to school.
And the military police came to arrest me. So, I asked them, “Please call your—” I guess it was a
major— “please call your major and have him talk to me.” So, they got on the line and called
him. They said, “Lieutenant Colonel Talmadge would like to talk to you.” “What’s this for,
Sergeant?” “Well, he’s passing out Bibles at the elementary school.” He said, “Leave him
alone.” (01:16:24)
Veteran: And they drove off because I was authorized. Every post, camp, or station you come in
it has a guardhouse at the entrance. Betty Cottrell, her husband Colonel Cottrell was a
commanding officer of the post. He was the post commander for Fort Huachuca years ago and he
died some 12 years or more before I got there. So, she became a coach of mine, a self—whatever
you want to call it—proclaimed advisor about how to engage and assist widows. Alright, so
she’d come visit me whenever she had a case to jaw about something, especially what they
would butcher somebody—some deceased. She’d have me get involved with it. I had no
�33
authority but I’d get involved with those that did the medical side of it, where they’d take
somebody down as a cadaver and find out why they died and all that stuff. But they wouldn’t be
so mean. But whatever else that she was interested in. But she taught me a lot and I just kept my
mouth shut and learned a lot. So, what we did together, based on her meeting, went to the
commander and we created an organization called ‘Widows Information Center.’ And that
was—and we moved the military police out of that building and put them in it and put a great big
sign, ‘Stop here.’ And so, the widows were there and so the people would stop for information
and they could give them information down to the cat’s meow, particularly for families with
children.
Interviewer: Okay, so ‘Widows Information Center’ means information center run by
widows rather than information for widows? (01:18:13)
Veteran: That’s right.
Interviewer: Okay. Good. I just wanted to—
Veteran: Information for the world.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: So anyway, that—now, for the information for the widows, she had meetings and I’d
sometimes come there or just sit there and say nothing. And she had different kinds of things that
she would have them do. Some of them were good at crocheting and so they made things. They
made blankets for people in the hospital or something for their lap. Whatever. We had many of
those became grandparents, adopted grandparents, and they’d go after our nursing home, you
know, their care. And they’d adopt black, yellow, red, China—doesn’t matter who they were—
children and they became the grandmas and they come in and help out and level off some of the
�34
edges that a family might have. Because there—we had some of our cadre were in the
intelligence business and there’s a lot of spiky stuff going on there. And the others were in a
large signal brigade. We only have two of them in the world—United States, I should say. One
of them that takes care of the east, west, and the other one takes care of the east. And so, in the
west that—those families—sometimes they’d deploy to do things to do some work in an area
that’s been hit by maybe a storm. So, that kind of stuff. Or overseas for some operations. Put out
maybe some unit has deployed and they need that set up their base operation. And they are real
good about that stuff; they are really smart and fast. And the intelligence community is the same
way; they had this support. But the intelligence school had training in a wide variety of things. I
was trained in every field they got except for one. I was glib in that. And they thought because I
was working for the post that I was single corps and they shunned me until they found out who I
was. (01:20:14)
Veteran: One of the schoolhouse buildings in Fort Holabird is named Benjamin Talmadge. He
was General Washington’s coordinator for 6 spy rings along the eastern Atlantic coast here
during the Revolutionary War. He’s my great, great, great, great grandpa. His son, Richard,
would spell Talmadge with one L. He spells his name with 2 Ls. He’s still one of us, or we are
one of him. Anyway, so we got along just fine. So, I left with the intelligence school as I did the
brigade.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And so, they tried to keep things that way but I had 24 other units—Department of
Defense or other units—on post doing some very important work. And they were operatives and
all this other stuff that was there to take care of their, either the civilians or the military, in their
regular routine daily work. So, I worked on that and tried to keep up with it and I depended on
�35
the skillset of the people who were running it to make it right. I’d get in there and mix it up and
got helped to change folks around that were not functioning. I got after people that got sick. Got
sick a lot. And one guy we relieved and put him in personnel management arena and relived him
from his job because the doctor told me, “If he drinks one more drink, his kidneys will
crystallize.” His wife left him and they sold the house and he lost his family because of that and
that broke my heart. So, I was sued for…I don’t know… maybe a 180 million dollars for that.
And I was represented by the Army and during the court case—and they were trying to figure
out what to do—and his attorney was trying to get the money because of he’d…racial stuff. He’s
one of my black brothers. We had a Bible study together and all that stuff. So, I was his relative.
Why is he coming after me with that stupid thing? So, I saw him in the hallway with his new
girlfriend and I—his nickname was doc—I said, “Doc, I know you’re here for what you think
you need to get done. And this young lady, I don’t know who she is. But I love you, brother.”
And I walked off. (01:22:46)
Veteran: And I thought man, that was stupid. But the Lord protected me. And so, that job was
made open and other folks went to fight for it. And so, that would—I recommended the 2 ladies
because they were sharp, they protected them, they covered them. So, they sued me for 360
million because neither one of them.. we got a Native American in there to run the EEO shop.
And I didn’t tell them anything. That—they cleared that before it—it was the day before we were
supposed to gather. I flew in from my next assignment. And so, they canned it. I never went to
that proceeding.
Interviewer: I am trying to understand here: why were you being sued at all?
Veteran: Because they didn’t get selected for the position and they thought I just recommended.
And the upstaff—that’s all I could because he was a DM-13 and I could recommend that position
�36
for the 2 12s or 8—anybody who qualified. And these 2 women did. They did excellent work
and I could prove it. And so, once they found out what I did, their representative, they dropped it.
So, that was 2 for 2. I said, “That was crazy.” One of the things that happened when I was there,
the Army ran out of money as far as morale and welfare and they decided we are not going to
fund morale and welfare. You figure it out on your own. I am at a remote station. How do I get
it? (01:24:19)
Veteran: How do—who is going to give me any money? So, I talked to some of my buddies in
other post camps or stations and I researched across the United States and found 3 carnivals. And
they had triple ratings. And I found one that was available and hired them. I brought in a
carnival. And then, I had—he had to make—it was for 4 days. On day 3, if he didn’t bust a
million, he was in trouble and I was in trouble. It cost me $5000 to rewire a place for people to
come and do things. I had a herd of over 125 horses and 5 bulls and that mule was…he’d get up
and anyway. Did nothing much but get up. But nonetheless, so all that time we had rodeos and
people would pay 5 bucks to try to ride those bulls. And then we put about 40 or 50 of those
horses out too. You know, 6 or 7 or 10 at a time and back and get them all cleaned up and put
them back. We’d teach them how to clean them up. And then the post exchange came across
with 10 of thousands of dollars of savings on porcelain ware and appliances and oh my goodness
stuff. Yeah. And then, they also had clothing at the dry goods side of it. So, they had the
commissary and the dry goods side of it at the post exchange provided all kinds of absolute
wonderful things. And so, I just thought to myself: that’s not enough. So, I went downtown and I
got 3 banks at half of 1% interest and I got 5 automobile car companies, give me maximum,
maximum, unbelievable military discounts. (01:26:27)
�37
Veteran: And they connected with the bank. I don’t care; buy it, make a deal on a car, and come
to one of these 3 banks. I don’t care. I am out of it. I don’t want to hear about it, I just want to
know are you going to be there or not? And let me know how your business went. So, those are
the things that we set in place while we had other things going on too. So anyway, we started it
and then the governor of Arizona sent a notice and he was mad at me because they were having
some kind of a annual event in Tombstone. Their annual shootout. And we missed that out.
Come to find out, they went to that and they came to us. Or they went to us and went to them.
And the underground silver mines were open and they had people that went there, came to us, or
vice versa. So, they really made out on our advertisement. We got a television and we got
everything multimedia. We grossed over 1.5 million dollars. And so, we got a piece of that and
put that into all the things that we were doing. We had a GPA, absolutely wonderful golf course.
We had a million gallons of water on it every night. Where can you get a million gallons of
water?
Interviewer: In the middle of Arizona, it might be tough.
Veteran: And we were 5000 feet above sea level. What we would do is I got half the water out of
the water treatment plant that had really been processed as best we could, mixed it with well
water, and then every so many months, I—when we put up—when we fertilized, we also
included in there a spray that would melt down the buildup because you always get buildup when
you mix the water treatment stuff. It crusts. So, we took care of that. (01:28:29)
Veteran: And then we had the right equipment and mowed the areas pristine. Absolutely
wonderful. Downtown golf course really got upset and we had some many stars that would want
to come to see me and I never talked to any of them. I had them go down and talk to the post
commander. Post commander called it ‘Talmadge Follies.’ And he’s the one that got rid of it.
�38
How about that? So anyway, one of the fun things, we had a female black bear show up, about
300+ pounds. And the first time we found her, one of the ladies came out to pick up newspaper
and heard this…And the black bear was drunk in a tree, sleeping. And one of us got in an apple
tree. I didn’t notice what happened to the bear if he eats too many apples. They get kind of
woozy. So, he climbed the tree, she climbed the tree, passed out and she was sleeping. I mean,
she was in a dead sleep so she called the corps of engineers. What are they going to do with that?
So, we had to call animal control downtown. And so, animal control had to call somebody else a
little bit higher than them. And they had ways of handling that kind of thing in the natural
environment. And so, they hit it with a tranquilizer and the thing whimpered down the tree and
broke everybody’s heart. They took pictures of it. Oh, there’s the bear. The bear? I don’t know. It
crashed and passed out. Put her in a vehicle, drove her up to the…to the top of the mountain
there, somewhere away from us, in that area, in the Huachuca Mountain range. (01:30:21)
Veteran: And so, everybody breathed a…it was really great. And I thought to myself: isn’t that
interesting? That was Colonel’s Row. The best garbage is in Colonel’s Row so the bear was after
the garbage in Colonel’s Row. Three weeks later, we got another call. Same bear, different tree.
Same problem, same routine: haul her off into the Huachuca Mountains. Third time, they said,
“We got to—it’s time—we might kill her. We don’t do that.” So, these guys were from the
federal service, you know, the park service. Okay, we are going to fix her this time. Put her out,
drove her to the Huachucas. And they are way down on the other side of the valley. We haven’t
seen her since. But so, that was one of our stories and we made the newspapers and people were
laughing. But we didn’t want to hurt that bear. We didn’t want to hurt that bear so we learned a
lot on that. So, we had some really fun things that happened and we had some sad things that
happened. People die that we were surprised at, that took their lives. One of them went home and
�39
there was drinking buddies and took an early morning—or, took an early afternoon off—and we
found her floating in one of the…what do you call that? Jacuzzi tubs in somebody’s backyard?
The widows went down there and cleaned the place up. I mean, they got her holed up, and
cleaned the place up. We couldn’t keep up with it. Betty Cottrell tried her best. We tried our best.
The military police tried their best. The chaplains tried their best to keep up with this stuff. These
are civilians, work for us. And then another situation…I don’t know the…I never did get the full.
I don’t understand it, but another person shot themselves. (01:32:30)
Veteran: Betty Cottrell and the widows show up. And the brains are blown all over the room.
That room. They cleaned that up. So, the family didn’t have to put up with that. That was
interesting and that was sad. And we didn’t know—you know, you don’t have—how do you
interdict those things? I am in the midst of several situations even currently but it’s different than
that. All of them are different; every one of them are different. Before I left, the last thing—one
of the last things that happened was…No, I had left. In July of ’70—no, July of ’83—I was
reassigned. And I just felt like I didn’t fit in and I wanted things to be done where you could
audit it and you could say this is an ethical, proper operation. And there were some things that
were going on that I rebelled against. And maybe I goofed up at the same time, so I have to take
that. But I was made available for reassignment and I was told my assignment was to come up
into here, Michigan somewhere, or Minnesota, right next to the Great Lakes. A cold assignment
for my retirement assignment. And so, I told my grading officer, who recommended me for this,
I said, “I am taking this that I am being made available to reassignment and I should take that
with a very positively.” And I told the 3-star general that commanded the whole outfit that
Sunday that I said my farewells to him. He said, “For what?” He was livid. (01:34:21)
�40
Veteran: I said, “I am going to work this out and I am going to keep you posted.” Well, I don’t
know what he did but I got a new rater and I got people to write stuff. I approved it before it was
sent in. What a was—that’s stupid. I don’t like that either. So, I called a secret—remember, I was
there before? I was in an Army security agency but I had single units working for me. I was
really administration but I told them what to do to keep out of trouble. So, I talked to some
young captain in the single group and that’s that same group that had combat support. That was
one of the areas that we assigned. So, they found me a job working as an executive officer of a
computer management director in the Army…Army material command. And those computers
crunch all kinds of…what was that? Barcode equipment. And the equipment is valued at over 81
billion dollars. Everything the Army has has got a number on it, somehow. And so, they
managed that plus they had small—they had logistics—12 of those little units or organizations
working for them, underneath them, and I was the executive officer for the director of computer,
like I say, management. And there was an SES, senior executive service, gentleman and I don’t
think he ever had—his name was George—I don’t think he ever had military service. But he was
rebelling because I didn’t go to war college. But the guys in the personnel Army personnel
command said, “Try it.” Anyway, so I got in there and—
Interviewer: So, where was this? (01:36:29)
Veteran: So, I became the executive officer for the…automated management directorate.
Automated—using automation to…equipment. I mean, huge stuff. And in 12 different sites. So,
but I would—for my administration, I’d help him keep his staff straight and somethings are
going funny, I’ll—like for instance, he’d get somebody going on a trip and buying—have lunch
and it’d cost $85. He didn’t like that. So, I was going to—I was a straight man for him.
Interviewer: Alright. So, what was your home base?
�41
Veteran: Home base was in Alexandria again. I was right down the street from the Army’s
military personnel command.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Same neighborhood, different building. Well, alright. So, we got started and while I
was there, I kept getting interrupted because I had to go do something and if he found out I was
doing chaplain—doing something somewhere—trying to help some of the employees. So, at
some point he invited me up to the flag officer’s—at that command—flag officer’s weekly Bible
reading and prayer session. We prayed about everything. And I was the only—I was always a
lieutenant colonel and they were either SES, according to a 1 or 2-star, or brigadiers or higher,
and the commanding general was a 4-star. I was sitting in there. And I sat in there and I went—
sometimes, when George would travel, he would take me with me to St. Louis or to different
commands. And I’d go back and visit and follow up on something. (01:38:23)
Veteran: But it had to do with handling your personnel and goal-oriented behaviors instead of
looking at it and you get the product and you don’t know what you got. You never evaluated
them; you never said, “You know you need to plan. Rog, you need to look at this harder. Here
you are strong, here you are making headway, but you are not doing a thing here. Or you need to
be harder. This is what I want you to do. This will meet my vision if you can do this.” They
didn’t do that. So, I got after them on that. Some of them called them up and they, finally, they
backed down and they said, “Yeah, I guess we need to do it,” because I was…When I…I had
been a consultant with the hospital I got involved with to stop sexual harassment. And we had
one guy from the training who reported to the medical doctor, commander of the hospital, out at
Fort Huachuca, and apologized. He was calling the nurses and some of his staff at all of 2 in the
morning, propositioning them. And he quit doing that. And I guess he was a colonel or lieutenant
�42
colonel, something colonel, as a medical doctor and he was so pleased. So anyway, I got
involved with. And so, he invited me up to that meeting and I got to know some of the close,
really serious, things about them. One of them commanded our biological, chemical and such
laboratories across the United States. And he was really grief-stricken about it because all that
stuff would kill you. And in some of the science laboratories they had this thing cordoned off and
that’s where you had your working with the chemicals or whatever else. (01:40:12)
Veteran: And then you had another chamber and then you had another chamber and you
showered and changed, showered and changed, and then came out showered and changed. And
he was afraid if any of those doors got jarred and a little bit leaked out, it would take out the
whole community. And some of it was very persistent and others were very pervasive, which
means it would multiply. He said, “No control.” He took his life. And that was a rock. I mean,
that was not a happy time. That was terrible but that rocked the entire operation. Large command
just rocked by that. And so, I was up there praying with the rest of them. And we were weeping
together. The senior man up in at Army material command was a civilian. I don’t—he was a—
also, an SES and I don’t know what rank he would have been. But he worked just—he worked
directly as the aide or assistant technician, science technician, to the 4-star in the Army material
command. Came to one of those meetings and he got a call and left. We waited; he came back.
And the report was somebody was driving down a major boulevard…I wish I could remember.
Washington Parkway, or something like that. Traveling at 107 miles an hour, being policed by
the…chased by the local police and drove through his car, throwing his wife through the
windshield. Now, when she hit the pavement, she was dead. So, he came back to us. (01:42:10)
Veteran: The guy that was arrested had an armload of DUIs. Been in jail, been sobered up, been
in jail. Was just out again without a license and I don’t know where he got the car from. And he
�43
was drunk. Anyway, I guess it was within a month or a month and a half I was still there. He told
us what he did. He and his entire family of 7 children went down to the detention center, I had
been in there before, and sat down with the guy, wept with him, and forgave him and walked out.
About a month or so later, a guy by the name of Jim Ralph came into the office. I was on the
promotion list to become a full colonel. I had to be reassigned. At the time that that was
announced, a couple of my home study Bible boy—fellows—said, “Boy, Fort Huachuca was
quiet.” Nobody was talking. So, we just left that fly. One of them was a guy by the name of Bob
Gray. Remember that. So anyway, he was a young black guy. He was a…same rank as myself.
He was one of my students; I taught him at Command General Staff. So anyway, I…George
introduced me to Jim. “I like you to meet General Ralph. This is Roger Talmadge, sir. He is
going to be promoted shortly.” He was talking to Jim. So, I “Nice to see you, sir. Hope you’re
having a good day.” “Yeah. Sure. I hope to see you soon.” Walked out. I didn’t know what that
meant. (01:44:12)
Veteran: So then, I don’t know who did it, but I got a phone call for an interview back at the
Army material—Army personnel command. So, I walked into the office and it was his office.
And he didn’t see me. I talked to his colonel. And the colonel said, “You’re here for an interview
and also evaluation. And we are interviewing and evaluation somebody to take over—be the
director of field systems.” Field—you had in house computers like in this hotel and then you
have those out there that communicate with the hotel and keep up on stuff and feed information
or update outdated stuff. So, that would be the job. Anyway, so I didn’t know it but I talked to
everybody in this little division or group, whatever you call it, because like the other, you had
brigadiers that were in charge of the officers, you had another brigadier for enlisted, another
brigadier for other things, and another one for computer science stuff. Everything, in and out,
�44
externally. So anyway, got all finished up and I didn’t know what to think of it. I had no clue
what I was doing. People were nice, they were polite because they will all be polite to you. And I
just came in the same, talking about everything. And so, I came back to say goodbye to the
general and he was still busy or out. And the colonel said, “Well, it’s nice talking to you. We are
going to visit with others and you have a nice day.” Well, before I went over there, George had
told me you’re the only game in town. I said, “For what?” He said, “Well, I don’t know.” He
didn’t know what to—what was on Jim’s mind. He knew what Jim was doing because he
networked with him. His stuff does what his stuff does, only his is on material and Jim was
people. (01:46:18)
Veteran: So anyway, I said, “Yes, sir. Hope to see you soon.” Walked out. Next Monday, walked
in, “Hi, Colonel. I am back.” And I went in my office. And so, when I got into that office, I had a
couple secretaries. One of them left me and she got promoted. Anybody—any female—that
works for me will get promoted within 18 months, at least 1 grade. She got promoted and went
and worked for somebody else. Some other lady wanted to work to get that promotion where
there was vacant. And so, she came in and she told me, “I don’t fetch things for anybody.” “Oh.
Okay. So, I fetched coffee for her.” But there is other things she didn’t do either and the one that
left was—had a nice personality, was interested in doing a modicum amount of work, and that’s
what we needed. I developed reports and I needed help with those reports. I couldn’t develop my
own reports and—well, I could but, you know, I couldn’t do that. That’s just…I had too much.
So anyway, I talked to some of the—I had a warrant officer by the name of Steve Hagen. He was
brilliant. He was a W-4; he had been around. He’s an old dog. That’s before they had a W-5.
They had just come out. He wasn’t one of them. So anyway, he’d been in this business since he
was a…and he came up through the ranks. He was in combat in Cambodia behind the enemy
�45
lines for a long time, and nobody knows that. I was on this side in Vietnam and he was on that
side in Cambodia. And he was destroying lines of communication that was vital to our survival.
Anyway, I met him. And so, we sat down and said, “We got to get you a new secretary. Well,
let’s get rid of this one first.” I don’t know what they did but she found a better job. Who knows?
(01:48:22)
Veteran: But she never got a promotion. So, then it was a lady…she’s tall, about your height,
slender. Her name is Sherry Marinoff. And she said, “Well, do you mind if I sit here and I will
just sort of look after things while you look for somebody?” “Sure.” I don’t know what to do;
they didn’t know what to do. I didn’t know what to do. Anyway, so any secretary that works for
me has got to be, in that job, had to become and office manager. Now, I wasn’t looking for a
secretary. I don’t need somebody to really bring me coffee or hold my hand or anything else. So,
she was nice and she’d bring coffee to me. And one time, when I came in and I got my coffee
and I sat down, she came in my office and put her hands on her hips and says, “You ever touch
that cup again, I’ll break your fingers.” Walked out. I said, “I think she’s going to stay.” I didn’t
know what to do with her. So, here is what happened: we started training her. Steve was training
her what he knew and I trained her what I needed help with. So, Steve would go on a lot of trips
and gather information and they taught me that interior and Steve taught me how to gather
information from the worker. And then, if I was with them, I wouldn’t go talk to the workers per
se, I would talk to the ranking personnel and keep busy so our guys could go down and talk to
the workers uninterrupted. No—none of this filtering stuff. And what they taught us were things
that we repaired the current system. In 1984-85, we solved the X2Y Program problem. You
know, where you go from 6 digits to 8 because you have to put the full year, not…02 could be
�46
1902 or 2002. Okay. Or 2002. So, we solved that. I had time to put that on the new C machine.
(01:50:28)
Veteran: They designed the physical…the physical hardware for the new field machine that you
could pick up and actually carry. And it had a communications system in it with 2…we had a
minimum of 2 satellites, or a maximum of 3, on each—wherever you put one of these devices.
We wrote a million lines of code from the bigger system and loaded it in because this thing had a
lot of capability, storage capability, and compute power to move that stuff around. And Steve
was in the middle of all of it. The physical and the software side of it, the hard and soft. And I
had a guy that was willing to assemble these. And he built the old system and when they wanted
punch cards and all kinds of weird systems and they had a million lines of codes on 11 base
lines. Eleven—I mean, 7 different compilers that were made by different manufacturers and they
didn’t agree with each other. Now, remember I have an order of battle background. I said, “We
are going to get rid of those baselines.” So, we got down to 3. We killed 2 of them. And the other
3 became amenable to each other. I’ll put it that way. And I am smiling like a Cheshire cat
because the idea is whichever one gets weak is the first one to go but these would crunch it down
so all these were the same, all the field ones. And then, we tested. We went to Fort…wherever it
was, in Georgia. And the 24th infantry division and General Schwarzkopf. Ever hear of that
name? He was a 2-star there. Very fine gentleman. Smoked a cigar, swore like a sailor. And that
was the kind of guy he was. (01:52:26)
Veteran: And so, we helped him get a blue star rating for accuracy and timelines of personnel
data. He loved it because all of his systems were catching up just by us building the new system,
the everyday system would catch up with it because, all of a sudden, these changes would appear
and we wouldn’t tell anybody. We’d announce it and the guys down here got it but the upper—
�47
they didn’t understand. And if they got it, they wouldn’t know how to read it anyway. I didn’t. I
didn’t read it, I just—they told me what it was, I believed them. You know, it was magic. So
anyway, so we worked on that and that worked out very fine. Then, the project manager that was
on retired. And here I am, 2 years into this thing, and I now have—I am now the project manager
for a 2 point—I mean, for a $4.6 billion dollar project. And I don’t even know…I don’t know
even how to spell some of the words these guys used to communicate with each other. I had
Steve and his buddies—his buddies—recruit everybody that worked for us because we had
access to the top one half of all civilian or military, doesn’t matter what their rank was,
technicians in the United States Army. And we got them from the National Guard. I had working
for them, I rated them, and the Army Reserve. So, the National Guard bureau recognized what
we were doing and knew me personally. I also worked with the office of the—you know, the
chief of the Army Reservist became the U.S. Army Reserve command in the Pentagon. That’s
now a 4-star. So, the National Guard bureau was a 4-star but the Army Reserve was a 3-star until
it was commanded by this man. Okay, so that’s that. (01:54:27)
Veteran: So, Sherry came in and we traveled around the world and do stuff and I took Europe
and Steve took a little bit with me too. And but he sent the teams at other parts of the world
because I knew the languages there, I am comfortable there. I have never been in Asia except for
Vietnam or wherever and that kind of stuff. And they trained me how to give a briefing on this
stuff. So, finally I started briefing this stuff. I come into Germany for a world-wide personnel
briefing and conference and we talk about detailed stuff so these guys could get the latest but
they learned it through their supervisor line. And their top guys would show up and I don’t know
what they do because they didn’t understand what was going on. One of the things that we did
was General Knopf—he didn’t hire me for my functional knowledge but for my knowledge to,
�48
1., build teams and love that team. That’s it. And he never bothered me. So, Sherry got to a point
where she felt sorry for him. And once in a while, he’d come in and he’d be, you know, he
worked long hours too. And so, she went out and bought him a beautiful porcelain cup and
saucer and little spoon that went with it. And so, he—she was a lovely lady. Lovely to look at,
lovely to talk to, had a brain in her head. And so, she’d bring that and put it on her desk as he sat
down. And he said, “Oh, you can’t do that for me.” She said, “You know what, you don’t want
me to tell you what I told to your—that friend—do you? Good. Enjoy. Goodbye.” And she’d
walk out. (01:56:15)
Veteran: And her husband was this tall and she was this big. And so, whenever I got in trouble
with somebody, Peter would tell me, “Tell my wife, Sherry. She’ll take care of that for you.”
Because she was mean when things went nuts. Okay, so Jim permitted us to cheat. $4.6 billion
dollars…How do you spend that stuff? And everything is uphill. Nobody has ever done this stuff
and you have to test it and make it work. It took a while for General Schwarzkopf’s stuff to work
perfectly well. I mean, because it was just as perfect as humanly possible. Anyway, so what we
did on Highway 50 coming out of Washington D.C., it’s what we called the Mill Par Building.
We rented the whole shebang, the Army did. And we had a piece of it. I don’t know how many
square foot it was. A couple thousand square. And we put 35 men and women in there with lots
of space between them. And all’s we do is once in a while—and Jim knew we were doing this—
we’d back a truck up, open up the chute and dump the money down it, pick it up, and drive
away. Carte blanche--buy what you need. And they bought the first laptops that cost $14,000 and
it had 8 megabytes of something. And then look what we got now. And so, we went from that
and we started with those and they would test stuff and send us side—electronically—side stuff
that we went in and put in our in the building system that impacted all the other desktops. So, we
�49
did that. And then, then we go to—every year, we had to defend our budget. And they couldn’t
figure out—Congress couldn’t figure out when our button was pushed to report. You’re always
ahead of time within your budget. You weren’t always this way. Something funny is going on.
I’d send a sergeant E-6 over there sometimes, or maybe Steve or somebody else. I wouldn’t go.
(01:58:27)
Veteran: What do they need me for? I am busy; I got things to do. and I don’t know—I didn’t
even know those people. do you know anybody? I don’t know anybody in Congress. And the
sergeant—and the reason they did—the sergeant, I mean, the general and Jim Ralph supported
that because they had the answers. I don’t. I’d have to ask them. Why ask them? And I got in
front of them once, a couple times, and I told them who is going to brief them when they came to
my office, these high ranking, mostly military. And I said, “Staff Sergeant Jones is going to talk
to you about A, B, N, F and Warrant officer Jones over here, or Steve, is going to talk to you
about the intern—everything in between plus G. but you have to have it in sequence, I just told
you, because they told me that’s logical and if you do it sequentially like this, you get lost and I
am lost and so please trust me what I just said. If you have any questions, I am still—I will be
sitting right here.” And so, they got finished with the sergeant and they asked him his questions.
He said, “That’ll be talked about in so and so. That’ll be talked about in so and so. Yes, I’ll
review that for you right now.” And then when Steve or the warrant officer did, they walked
away with a confidence that this system was complicated and it’s building—being built—
systematically with strength and conviction and it’s going to work. And when your underlings
get it and you start seeing the results yourself, you’ll be able to—by those clear facts, receive it
and support it and watt it or help the people so when they come into—the new ones will learn
�50
because the new system and we had people that were retiring. So alright. So, they got that
started. (02:00:18)
Veteran: Got that started. And let’s see…what else did we do…I remember one time—one time
we had to go in and we had to turn on a lot of…almost all the satellites because we had all—we
had 22,000 of those boxes out there. 22,0000 would replace all the stuff that’s in the building.
Any building in the world, we had to test. You know what the light bill on that was? $81 million
dollars. Getting back to Sherry Marinoff. I’d come back from a trip and I had a framework and I
just filled it in with a few words: this is my report. I walked away. Later that day, she would give
me the full thing and very seldom did I even have to change any because we had some basic
things that we’d been talking about all along. She had that, all she had to do was take this out,
move this over here and put this in to say this satisfies are with it. So, we got across the board
with these 22, 000 machines. We got—it was 99.6% accurate and no older than 48 hours. When I
inherited, they were sometimes 18 months old and one standard deviation accuracy. That’s 28%.
That’s trash.
Interviewer: So, what kind of data or information are we talking about here, when you are
getting this? (02:02:09)
Veteran: The information that I have on you, we’d pull it up in 99.6% accurate. And the latest
data we have when you got that new car and registered this morning. And what color it is. And
by the way, you haven’t had it inspected.
Interviewer: Very good.
Veteran: That’s nuts, isn’t it?
Interviewer: Mhmm.
�51
Veteran: Now, let me tell you what happened to Schwarzkopf. Went into—Steve had a nice
relationship with General Schwarzkopf. General Schwarzkopf would scream at Steve Hagan and
Steve Hagan would return in like kind. So, everybody was up on plane. So, went in there and
said, “You know, we have got this system and you have told us that you have evaluated yourself
and all your people reporting to you that it’s doing well for you, it’s fast and it’s accurate and it’s
usable. It’s a usable form for you and your team. And you’re getting good grades from those that
grade what you do here. We need to start developing our wartime system.” And right in the
middle of that, he says, “You can’t touch it. You touch it and I’ll have you run off this
installation.” Well, going back to the 1st Battalion, 8th Cav, 1st Cav Division in Vietnam, our
operations officer was a guy by the name of Edward Berber. He was a major in the United States
Army. At the time that General Schwarzkopf blew his top, we made a couple phone calls out to
the 7th Division near Coronado, out in that area in California. Major General Ed Berber was
commanding. “Say, General Berber. I am from your old battalion. You were the operations
officer. I came in later. I need a site to test this system.” He says, “Come on out. Let’s talk.”
Interviewer: Alright. (02:04:17)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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TalmadgeR2152V4
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Talmadge, Roger S.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09
Title
A name given to the resource
Talmadge, Roger (Interview transcript and video, part 4), 2017
Description
An account of the resource
Roger Talmadge returned from his second tour in Vietnam in 1972 to receive training at Command General Staff College in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. He graduated in June 1973 from Command General Staff College and then attended the University of Kansas to earn a master’s degree in business administration. Roger graduated from the University of Kansas at the end of 1974. He worked during this time as an instructor at the Command General Staff College for 4 years. During his last 2 years at Fort Leavenworth, Roger was actively involved in prison ministry. He then was transferred for an assignment at the Military Personnel Management Center in Washington D.C. By 1979, Roger had become the head chaplain of his unit. He received orders to Fort Huachuca, Arizona in 1981, where he worked in personnel management. He remained at Fort Huachuca until 1983. Afterwards, he worked as an executive officer of the automated management directorate in Alexandria in Washington D.C.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American
Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Roger Talmadge
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interviewer: Okay, we had got in your story to the point where you had finished your
intelligence training at Fort Holabird, Maryland and then they are sending you to college
now to actually get a Bachelor’s degree finally, like officers are supposed to have.
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, was there another piece or two that you wanted to fill in before
continuing?
Veteran: I wanted to recall a time in April, 1966. We were deployed and we were engaged with
an enemy that was moving and I think it was in the Bong Son area again. We went back there
several times and I was the intelligence officer and I still had my connectivity with the G-2 and
other people. And very sensitive about certain things. I counted it a real blessing that the rifle
companies were really on to it because one day I got a call on my radio that one of the companies
had shot a man riding a bicycle and he was wearing a palm beach suit. And he wouldn’t—when
they hollered, “Dong lai!” he didn’t, which means “Stop!” And he kept going and they did it 3
times and then they shot him. Well, it was a good thing they did because when they got him, they
frisked him and they got some papers from him and it was just columns of numbers and words
and letters and just didn’t make any sense. But it was in good condition. It wasn’t muddy or
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nothing. So, I asked him, “Get a runner to me.” So, it took a while but they got a runner to me
and he gave it to me and my Vietnamese interpreter looked at it and he read it. He looked at all
the pages and says, “I don’t know but this is very, very radio secret.” I said, “Top secret crypto?”
“I don’t know. Very, very secret radio.” So… (00:02:10)
Veteran: I forget what Colonel Hennessey, the one—the lieutenant colonel. He is now a colonel.
He is a brigade commander. So, I got on his frequency. I said, “Left Half 6, this is…” you know,
whatever, ‘Vitamin Pill 2.’ “I’ve got a document that you need to get from me now.” He says,
“Roger, out.” And so, his bird came in and I handed it to him. I said, “This is a top secret crypto
document. I can’t tell you anything more about it. I just don’t know. But it needs to get to Saigon
immediately because they can decipher this silly thing. I—we can’t.” So, I gave it to him.
Alright, so they have to blank all that out; just put it somewhere. So, that was one thing. And
then the other thing that I was told by interrogation: that we were in a valley and it has little
rising mountains and it had these little gulley kind of things that went up between the mountains.
And I was told by some of the folks we captured that, “Oh, we got all our storages in those
places because you never check them.” So, I got ahold of the artillery and I asked them if they
could deliver us a little support and I gave them a couple coordinates. And they hit those
coordinates and there was a single explosion. It was an artillery piece. And then there was
secondary explosions and followed by secondary explosions. And they just blew the side of
that—I don’t know what was in there but can you imagine that would have fed the bad guys
some things. Okay, so that’s recollection of what was happening in April.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Now, did I already talk about June of ’66?
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Interviewer: What was going on June of ’66?
Veteran: We were in the same general area. Back again, only this time the unit—no, we didn’t
talk about it. The unit also was a unit that was—had fresh, fresh troops. I got this by
interrogation after we had captured someone. It was a fresh unit from the furthest reaches close
to the Chinese border of North Vietnam. (00:04:29)
Veteran: And they had moved into the area and we were outgunned so we hid. I had 180
helicopters that we were guarding. I mean, that’s a large force. And it was our battalion
primarily. I think I am correct in saying that. They were some—those helicopters were
somewhere in the neighborhood and we were using them for apparently fighting the fringes of
that organization. Had no clue how really big it was. And the reason we finally got involved was
the 101st had gotten into that area and they lost a lot of troops and there was an under strength
rifle company, I think 1 rifle company, from the 101st. And I had the name of the battalion
commander but he lost control. He didn’t have any communication with him. And so, we were
going to go in and try to do something, whatever that was. So, my battalion commander and the
operations officer were doing something else and I flew in to set up the forward battalion
operation center. And I was by myself with whatever, whoever, was with me. And so, we kept up
with that and watched that carefully. But we put a bird up there with all of that electronic stuff
hanging out the back. And one of those 2 engine aircrafts that could loiter for us. So, we could
communicate—we communicated with that unit on the ground. And we were able to put Bravo
company…They snuck in and they came down at night and they infiltrated it and reestablished
where there were shallow defense of that area. It had an area down here that was shallow and
then there was a kind of a lifting area here that had backed off and then up here was a mountain
but it was some distance. (00:06:22)
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Veteran: So anyway, alright. So, they got in there. So, the next morning, we usually have a mad
minute: we take two magazines full of ammunition and just let it go out there anywhere. So, they
did that and, all of a sudden, we heard bugles. They had bugles and they attacked on line. I
wasn’t there but this was the report I got from Bravo company when I got on the ground as soon
as I could get there. (00:06:48)
Veteran: But anyway, they came assault and they smashed through the front line there and the
commanding officer, who I know quite well, was very, very astute. Commander Roy was
wounded in April and we took him home so we had a new commander of Bravo company and he
was very, very excellent. And so, he had one of the platoons in reserve and pushed those bad
guys out. And so, by the time that the dust cleared and the enemy left, because they were soundly
beat up, but they were 2 reinforced companies on line. That’s most of a battalion. And we pushed
them back. But we ended up with 239 killed that we got that they didn’t pull away. So, I got on
the ground there immediately and I knew most of the guys and I was hollering at them because
they had dead soldiers in water and we needed to use that water. I had them pull them out. They
had cows that had been shot, water buffalo, and they were beginning to stink. I mean, it was hot
and so I covered them with a layer of dirt. Don’t bury them, just cover them with a layer of dirt.
And for the soldiers that were killed, a shallow grave. Get them covered up so the bugs and all
that, whatever, wouldn’t get into your food or on your body. So, they did; they cleaned all that
up. (00:08:19)
Veteran: And…Alright, so then some of the other units came around us but they didn’t—we still
had just Bravo company in the valley situation and all these dead bodies to contend with. A lot of
equipment and some we pulled off the soldiers. We pulled off the ammunition and it has
Cosmoline on it. Brand new. And we had a light machine gun and they let me use it. And you
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just laid it on your hand and it wouldn’t even lift. It was excellent; well-made light machine gun.
Kalashnikovs all over the place as well, the assault rifle. That was amazing. And their uniforms
were wonderful. They had excellent, fine—they weren’t worn out and moth eaten. They weren’t
falling apart. They weren’t rotten. They were in good shape. We captured one company
commander and a battalion commander and another company commander was killed. So, we
started interrogating them and got rid of them quickly because we are not really fluent in that
stuff. And so, we got that off to brigade. And then, I got in a helicopter bubble. I got up about 6
or 7—5 or 6 or 7 thousand feet above the—above what was going on, trying to get an
orientation. And by then, we had—whoever was down there left of the 101st and ourselves—we
were in full strength, our two other…well, two plus almost a third company that could put fires
on an enemy force. (00:10:04)
Veteran: They were really unbelievably busy. We had 7 firing batteries, 6 cannons each, and they
were full busy trying to engage these people. They were…It was a huge—we found out they
were called ‘The Black Knights’ or some code name like that. That’s what they called
themselves. And they were well trained and their daddies must have been Chinese but they were
living in North Vietnam. And they were reserve forces. That tells you they were running out of
people. Nobody paid attention to that. And this is 1966. They should have paid attention to that.
The thing that I got worried about is they were bigger than you. Their officers were small but the
soldiers were as big as you. We had women in the third line. Two lines had attacked through and
the third line were nurses or I don’t know what but they picked up the weapons and they got
killed. And that—our guys threw up over that. We don’t like—we don’t do that. We don’t do
that kind of thing. So, hmm. Seven firing batteries and Butch Boyette was in Charlie Company.
And they—Charlie company had just come over to burn. It was getting ready to come down the
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steep slope into where the valley is and then there was a gulley here. Of course, you don’t want
to go down in there; you will become a target. And then there was a large—high ground and a
ridgeline on the other side. And he was reporting that he’s pinned down and can’t move and he
can’t sneeze. He can’t stand up and, you know, sneeze because there was one or two rifle
companies over here that pinned him down. And he needed help. So, somebody on the ground
said, “Well, get Talmadge out of the air. He don’t know how to fire artillery.” And I thought to
myself, “You idiot. Everything is firing: on the ground or standing on my head. Nobody is—you
can’t engage—you don’t have any more guns.” So, I don’t know who did it but it must have
been—the Lord used somebody. But somebody got ahold of some ship that was sitting out on the
water and I heard all of this horrible, horrible squawking and squealing and I don’t know kind of
noise twisting. And somebody said, “You got a fire mission? Over. I repeat: you got a fire
mission? Over.” (00:12:44)
Veteran: And I asked them, “Where are you?” Because I knew all the firing batteries were busy.
He says, “Do a 180. Over.” So, I did a 180 and it was only one boat out there. Hmmm…What
could they do? It’s only a 3-inch gun. That’s about it. I said, “Roger, over. I see a boat.” He
started laughing; he says, “Yes, this is the United States Ship New Jersey. Send your fire
mission. Over.” I said, “You’re a battle wagon.” He said, “Roger, that.” I said, “Where’s your
flotilla?” He says, “Do you have a fire mission?” I says, “Yes.” I mean, he said “Yeah,” I said,
“Yes.” He said, “Okay.” I said, “Can you do—can you work a 10-digit coordinate? I have never
fired naval gunfire. I don’t even know what you do.” “Roger.” So, I gave him a 10-digit
coordinate. And so, here was Butch Boyette and here’s this gulley about two football fields
away. And here are these guys over here. And they are standing up and shooting them and they
got some—they got all kinds of ammunition. I mean, they could stand there all day. So, I said,
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“Give me one Willie Peter.” Not only will that tell me that they landed in the right place but that
will set the place on fire. A little piece of that will burn you up. (00:14:07)
Interviewer: Because that’s white phosphorus?
Veteran: That’s what it is.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: That’s white phosphorus. So, he said, “Roger that.” So, he dropped it in the middle of
there and I didn’t know any better. I said, “Roger. TOT, excellent fire. Fire for effectful
broadside.” Well, they didn’t do that. I was told later by some Navy guys they were laughing at
me. Well, they fired their 5-inch because they can get in there. And they—what they did, they
fired maybe one or two of the tubes because Butch told me that when it hit, it was nothing but
rocks and elbows and eyeballs and all of this all over the place. And just decimated that hill but
didn’t touch him. He said he stood up, and he’s a tall guy like you, and he went down the hill.
So, I thanked them for their excellent work and I didn’t know what—I never knew. The thing is
that bothered the pilot and myself both: I looked at him—I was a little bit closer to him than I am
to you—and I said, “What is the trajectory?” Willie Peter is different. It’s a lower trajectory. I
mean, they might fire it this way but it comes in lower. But when they fire a…with a high
explosive round, I mean it will maintain a high exit. It’s going to go through the helicopter or
under it or over it. I don’t know. I never did find out. I didn’t hear anything. All’s I—when it
exploded, I knew it hit. And it decimated—they didn’t—there was nothing there. There was
nothing left. So, they came down the hill and then I came down. And okay, so I was there and I
went up again because I—we were still receiving fire and we couldn’t figure out where it was.
And so, I had a forward air observer who had been with us about 30 days from the Air Force. So,
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I says—he was flying a little beemer. And he says, “I’ll fly around. I’ll see if I can pick up
something.” He sure did. Somebody shot at him. That hill that was all the way over here? Some
idiot shot at him. (00:16:09)
Veteran: And he flew out of there like a—he was on fire. I didn’t know what was happening.
And then within minutes, two 104s appeared and they hit it with Napalm and it burned the thing.
I mean, 2/3 of that mountain was nothing but flames and black. So, my friendly exec officer
comes up on line and he says, “2, this is 5 from the battalion headquarters. Get your ass down
here.” So, I did. “I am going to court martial you. Nobody calls in that. You had no authority to
do that whatsoever.” I said, “Sir, before you court martial me, do you mind if we send a little
patrol out? And when they give their report, then go ahead and haul me away.” “Alright.” So, I
sent 5 guys out. They come back. It took them a while to do it because they had to climb that hill.
It was all a mess. And he came back and he says, “Sir, there’s an antiaircraft gun up there. 14.5
whatever mike. They had a 5-man crew and they had enough ammunition here to kill everybody
in the valley.” And the major didn’t even say, “Well excuse me,” he just, “Huh!” and walked
away. But what happened is, I talked to that captain that was flying the Beaver and he said, “Oh,
they fired at me and when I found out what it was, that’s the only way I knew for sure that we
could get rid of the target without doing something that would really disturb you. It was
concentrated in an area away from you.” And he thought that out because he had been on the
ground with us enough to know that if he would have come in there with ordnance, some of that
might have gotten in our face. And so, that was well-thought out.Well-thought out. And so, when
I left that place, I left that and we’ll get back to him again after I bumped into him again. But I
left that place with a big sigh. (00:18:18)
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Interviewer: Alright. Now, let’s kind of steer ourselves back to the main line of the story
now. So, you finished Fort Holabird. So, when are you at the University of Maryland, then?
Veteran: I worked part time when I was at Fort Holabird. I worked in the defense index for the
whole Department of Defense. And we had over 600,000 records. We had people in
there…Douglas MacArthur? His records were still in there. We could run a background check on
him and run rabbit trails on who he knew. So, I became the deputy director for that for a couple
months. Now, I didn’t know anything. We had punch card machines technology at that time in
1966. But anyway, the staff—really brilliant people; men and women, civilians and some
military. I forget who the lieutenant commander was, or the lieutenant colonel. But I was just a
captain. And so anyway, they loved on me and they taught me everything and they knew I didn’t
know what I was—they knew I was lost. But I was going to get trained in it. So, they had a
baseball team and they were really good at it. I’d hate to arm wrestle with any of those women.
They were tough women. And but—they were also brilliant. So, they sent me off with a—you
know—all that hugs and stuff. And I got to University of Maryland and I started I guess in the
fall of 1966.
Interviewer: You mean, just a couple of months after Vietnam? Or…? (00:20:10)
Veteran: Well, maybe…
Interviewer: Or was it fall of ’67?
Veteran: Maybe it was ’67…
Interviewer: Yeah, because you had to do the training course at Fort Holabird first.
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Veteran: That’s right. You’re right. So, I had…it was the next year, ’67. And so, I went to the
University of Maryland and they were very kind to me. I struggled with the math. I did well with
a lot of it but we had differential and then integral and after a while, I didn’t know if it was
whatever. But math. And then, you worked computers. And I found out in that computer system
that if you’re writing documents, you’re publishing—you want to publish something and you’re
going to take this and you’re going to put it in some kind of format so somebody can enter it into
a document and then you publish it. Now, if you’re going to run mathematics against that…Let’s
say you had a mathematic situation where you wanted to run statistics in it. It was a different
kind of a program that would run that and a different kind of compiler. Well, they taught me how
to write computer programs in 3 different languages. I knew how to write the math stuff; I knew
how to write the word processing stuff. So, what I did—I spent months and almost flunked the
course—I spent months building a bridge between the two compilers. I’d take in a bunch of
material, information you gave me, and I’d store it, send the specific mathematical data that
needed to be calculated over here to be crunched, dump it back in the word process and print.
And I got the thing to work. I was not say—they thought I was just a freshman in it. Well
actually, no. I started off as a junior, a senior, and then I was out. (00:22:17)
Veteran: But some of the stuff in August of ’68…So, I got in there in ’67. The next year, in
August of ’68, my former spouse left; hasn’t been back since. And so, I turned myself in—
because I don’t know why she left—I had top secret crypto special intelligence background. And
I knew stuff or could decipher things. So, I turned myself in to the commandant, who knew me
from the advanced course. And he assigned me a family, a counter intelligence agent school
student. And he was a set up because he was going to be drafted so he signed up in the military
so he could not be in the infantry. So, they put him in the intelligence business. And so, he used
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to be the youth pastor at the largest Methodist church on Highway 50. And the only time I heard
Jesus in my household when I grew up as a youth, up until the time even I got in the military
when I go home, Jesus was something when you hit your hand or you went to the…you’re going
to eat something or you’re going to go to bed. And that’s it. It was a godless house. My dad was
an alcoholic and he was also an adulterer so that kind of kept things busy around the house. So, I
had nothing and I wanted out of the house; that’s why I got out. And you’re right, I—thanks for
educating me—I was 17 when I got in the military, not 16. But I wanted—I started getting out of
the place when I was 15. Took a while to qualify. So, thanks, that helped me out a lot. So,
then…So, he moved in and he thought it to himself, “Well, I better have my wife…” his name
was Bill Nairjus [sounds like], “…I better have my wife Bonnie come in and say it’s okay. We
are going to take over the household, take care of Roger and the three children. We are
responsible for their safety and that he’s fed every day properly. And he’s goes to school every
day, gets his lazy buns out of bed.” (00:24:46)
Veteran: So anyway, so she showed up. And she was a born-again Jew. She was a Jewess who
loved Jesus. That really helped my children because they needed loving on. They were so
confused with all this back and forth and noise and racket. And when I was in Vietnam and they
were in Columbus, these strange men were in the house a lot, I found out. What a mess. So
anyway, so they stayed with me and I continued on my education. So, one professor hired me to
write two international, I guess, economic courses. And I had exposure to something that might
be of assistance to him. So, I laid out a schedule of putting that together where you could start off
with A and you worked to the conclusion here. And so, he gave me some high points for that.
One guy sat down with me and listened to me about—and I gave him an oral report with all the
statistics on how to develop this surveillance in depth using mathematical tables instead of using
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computers that could zap out and could give you everything that you wanted to be able to change
the identity of different geographical regions. So, that helped me. So, I got through that course,
barely. All of them. Well, I graduated in June of ’69. (00:26:22)
Interviewer: Okay. So, you were in—now, were you on the main College Park campus
taking courses? Okay.
Veteran: Then, I was—I took some courses in Frankfurt, Germany—
Interviewer: Yeah, but—
Veteran: --for two years and then the rest of them at College Park.
Interviewer: Right. Okay, so you’re in a major American university in 1968. There were a
lot of things going on in this country in ’68. You had the King assassination, you had Bobby
Kennedy, you had riots, you had the democratic convention. A whole bunch of things going
on plus an active anti-war movement. I mean, how much of that registered with you at the
time? Were you paying attention to the news or did it effect life on campus?
Veteran: I very much had attention to the news. You had two things that you were working
against: you had the stuff going on internationally, so that was in particular where we had just
left. But I had spent a lot of time in Europe so I always kept an ear for what’s going on there.
What was going on in the United States…Didn’t really understand what happened to Kennedy. I
just knew he was assassinated. Didn’t understand why Robert Kennedy…but kept my ears to it.
There was a lot of race riots in different parts of the world, America world. and we had some
people that came in from Detroit and I can’t tell you how we infiltrated them but we did. We
knew what they were going to do before they did it. And I even—when I was going to college, I
always even got down there and I was armed and I knew how to use the—I wasn’t—I didn’t
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have a BB gun. But I never engaged anybody. I hauled some people out of the black community
who were very well-respected by the black community. And what the black community did on
the radio antennas of those ones that they liked, they put a black little flag on it and they were not
touched. So, the rioters came in and destroyed the place. Also, the SDS on campus. I’d be
walking along with my short hair cut and I’d have a business suit on or whatever I was dressed
for college. (00:28:42)
Veteran: And all of a sudden, I felt a hand on my right arm and another on my left arm. “Just
keep walking straight, sir. There’s a riot over at the—where you are headed right now to the
where the computer building is and we will take you in the side entrance. Just keep walking with
us.” They did that about 3 or 4 times. And every one of us veterans were—somebody picked us
out and watched us. Boy, I’ll tell you…You know, I was unarmed. And I didn’t know that stuff
was going on but they did. They were part of the student union. The student union kept them
informed of this. But I didn’t go to any of there meetings. I don’t know. But I do know from my
connections back from Holabird that they had a good handle on some of this stuff. Still do. and
also, I took an oath of office to defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
And that’s one of the reasons why my boys are where they are right now. So, I finished that up
and then I was—I also in December—I was a mess. Physically I was really a mess. And so,
Bonnie used to call my doctor at Fort Belvoir at the hospital and ask him, “How is the captain
doing today?” And if the doctor wouldn’t give her a report, she’d hit the ceiling. So, finally the
doctor says, “Get him out of town. Take him anywhere but this town for Christmas.” So, they
took me home to Cleveland. (00:30:27)
Veteran: I didn’t know that they were scheming. They were schemers. They had women lined up
for me to meet. And one of them that I met was, you know, one of these bouncy kind of bubbling
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all over the place, round like a tear, shapely thing, and I cringed in the corner because I knew
what that was and fact is, that’s out of my house and I don’t need anymore of that. So, that was
done. So, then on the 23rd of December, 1968, went downtown. Downtown in the middle of
town, they have the Higbee Tower and they have a great big department store in that facility.
Also, the metro comes in underneath—a train—comes in underneath and they load and unload
and…So, that’s a pretty high traffic place. So, that evening it was dark and there was a slight
wind with a little bit of snow in the air. And this cute little blonde girl came right up to my face
and said, “Hi, Bill!” and Bill Nairjus came around on the other side and she looked at him and
she looked at me. Said, “Oh my goodness! You’re not Bill!” So, we went on our first date. And
we went to some place in the flats. And that’s where they still show still movies. I mean, quiet,
silent movies.
Interviewer: Silent movies, yeah.
Veteran: Not still—silent movies. And had a beer or whatever else, maybe a little snackie. And I
thought, boy this is—this lovely lady is just absolutely fine. She’s not all wrecked by—the world
hasn’t destroyed her. So, I took her home and of course Bill or somebody was with me. I kissed
her on the forehead and I said, “I will see you soon.” I just left it at that. And so, I was trying to
get in my head because my heart was going like this at the possibilities. Wow. I had never met
such a lovely woman. I’d seen some others that would throw themselves at you but you don’t
need that. That’s destructive. And I was thinking about my children too. They need a real
mother, not a vacationer. (00:32:44)
Veteran: So anyway, I wanted to impress her. How do you do that? Well, you send flowers. So, I
got ahold of some florist and I said, “Gardenias. Beautiful. A nice gardenia plant.” So, we sent
her a gardenia plant and it said, “Charlotte: enjoyed last night. Warm regards, Roger.” So, a
�15
disaster strikes the house. The flowers arrive at the Bolz residence and Ruth Bolz receives them
and begins to sneeze. Hmmm. So, she opens up the card and it says—whatever it said—dearest
or…I don’t think I said Charlotte. I left that out. “Enjoyed last evening. Warm regards, Roger.”
So, she puts the note down and she hollers and everybody in the house heard, “Roger! You have
never sent flowers to me! What is this?” You tell that—that was a double disaster. He comes
down and starts sneezing. All of them are allergic to that—the things. And gardenias I found out
is a very energetic aggravator. So anyway, they got through that and finally Charlotte comes in
and she confesses, “I met some guy last night.” “What?! You didn’t even know him and he sends
you flowers? Tell me about him.” And all she says, “Army.” And she says, “Well, when they
called me and asked if I’d like to go out with a blind date with a major,” I found out she said,
“Well, what’s a major?” (00:34:29)
Veteran: Had no clue. They were not in the military. He had been in the—he had done some
things for the government but he never was in the military so they were skeptical of that. So, by
and by, they invited—she invited—they wanted her to meet me so they invited me over. And
then they found out I was a divorcee. They didn’t know when. They probably thought maybe two
years ago; it was months ago. And I had three children. And they were very polite to me. And he
was very stern and she was more gracious, if you know what I am saying. And hmmm…So, I
left and they told her, “You just walked into a mouse trap. You know that’s—don’t get involved
with that. You’re going to ruin yourself. You have a nice life, you’ve got a good job, you’ve got
a great education and you’re going places. And what happened to your Jewish boyfriend?” She
said, “I cancelled the time with him and am spending it with Roger on New Year’s and the three
children.” “What?!” So, she caused a—they were supposed to go somewhere in Las Vegas and
she called him up and said, “I have to cancel.” And that was the end of him. And so, we went to
�16
the movie and watched Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. And that was New Year’s Eve. And so, I tell
people that on the 29th of December, she begged me to marry her, so I did. It was the other way
around. I said, “I’d like to take you with me to Europe when I go this spring or summer.” And I
didn’t have orders. I knew that I could go there but they were going to send me really to the
Pentagon and I wanted to get out of Maryland. So, she got up and walked out of the room. I
thought, oh man, I blew it. What did I do wrong? (00:36:28)
Veteran: And so—no, she came back. She put a calendar in front of my face. She says, “When?
When are we getting married?” So, we settled it February. So, we went down…we went down to
the local magistrate because I had to get her on orders in order to move the children with her and
we did get orders because the Army was sympathetic to what I was being exposed to. And
Colonel Smith at the military intelligence school reinforced that. “He’s under gun and I’ve got
him under security. And so, send him back to Germany. That’ll break the—get him out of
Maryland and Virginia and everything else.” Okay. So, we went to the magistrate and so the
guy—well, I don’t know what he said. And he said this and then he said that and I said this and
she said this and they said, “Now, here is this. I want you to sign it. Sign it your regular name
and you sign it your new married name.” So, Roger Stuart Taldmadge. And she signed it
Charlotte Rose— “How do you spell your name?” And the judge exploded. He said, “What?!
How long have you known each other??” So, she said, T-A-L-M-A-D-G-E and signed it. And he
said, he just, “Young people.” So, what I did, and this is a—they ask you questions. Sometimes
you get in a couples’ group and they ask you some kind of questions about yourself that might be
personal. So, what I—so, I told them, “Which one of these things I am going to tell you is true or
false. You know, I married this woman after—I agreed to marry her after 9 days after she begged
me? Or…” I forget; something else. And what else I said, “And the third thing is: on our
�17
honeymoon, the first thing we did is inventory. We went over to Higbee Company and
inventoried their wares that they were going to sell in there stay, their military items.” (00:38:34)
Veteran: And that’s the one they missed. That’s what we did. She had me in there and I was in
there writing stuff down and she’d get it and line it up and I’d write it down. We did that for a
while. And then—and then I took her home and introduced her---well, see the children were
there when I first introduced to her. And then I took them to…Well, I lived in Linthicum
Heights, Maryland during while I was in college. And we were going to clean the place up and
leave. But anyway, and then we set the date to get married in the end of March, like the 27th. So,
okay, so the church she had been going to, a United Methodist church in University Circle,
which is still there. So, that pastor married us. He was kind of miffed because I was already
married so he wouldn’t give us a marriage certificate. And the parents were miffed. They
thought, “You know, some couples get married and their first child is—the gestation period is a
little bit shorter than regular children.” So, they were waiting for that to happen. I didn’t know
that; I found it out later. So anyway, we got married, we moved to Germany. And everything
worked fine. We were kind of sneaky as we left America because we didn’t want to have my
former spouse doing some mean things or blocking us legally or just causing trouble like she
likes to. She was always starting some trouble. He called me up and begged me to help him
control her. (00:40:07)
Interviewer: Who did? Her new husband?
Veteran: Husband. Yeah, she married—she had to marry right away otherwise she would have
been deported. The IRS—the INS got her, got ahold of her papers, and said she doesn’t qualify.
But she got married and then they—that took care of that problem. But anyway, when we got
�18
to…We got to Europe then. Then we were able to settle down and I took command. Well, I was
supposed to take care of Army Security in Europe. All of their automation activities. Everything.
Interviewer: Okay. And where were you stationed?
Veteran: I was in Frankfurt, Germany.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I was in Frankfurt, Germany. And so, that would have been Army Security AMC
Europe Headquarters.
Interviewer: Okay. And the dates when you are there?
Veteran: Say again?
Interviewer: The dates when you were there?
Veteran: I arrived there…I think it would have been June of 1969.
Interviewer: Okay. And how long did you stay?
Veteran: July of 1971.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And then, talk a little bit about the duties there and what you
were doing there.
Veteran: Well, you know, I had been an outcast everywhere I had been so I was an outcast there.
I had never been in the system. They didn’t know me from chicken man. The Army Security
Agency worldwide has their own infrastructure and their own click and what family and I was
not part of any of it. They had a guy that commanded the headquarters and service company,
which was a large organization that was stationed ahead and had concerns in different parts of
�19
Germany but mostly in the Frankfurt metropolitan area. And took care of all of the housekeeping
of those troops, including court martial authority and keeping the records squared away, all of
the logistics for the headquarters. Millions of dollars in property. And then the unit was spread
from Berlin to Izmir, Turkey. (00:42:28)
Veteran: That ran by the airfield in Frankfurt. The airfield there had two rotor-wing helicopters
and two fixed-wing aircraft that we used for whatever they—going to the meetings because they
had to go to some meetings in the weirdest part of Europe sometimes and it was high level stuff
that my general and his staffers were involved in. So, they were operators and I wasn’t. In
Frankfurt, Germany, not far—we had a huge former IG Farben building. It was the highest
business building in 1932-33 in Europe. And it was built by IG Farben who had a chemical plant
just outside of town about 40-miles. And they manufactured the materials and gas that killed the
Jews. They also manufactured things that we use in this country to abort babies. They’re still in
business in the murder business. Anyway, we renamed that building the Abrams Building, after
General Abrams. That honored him and the Germans were pleased with that because Abrams
was—when he was in command in Europe, was very helpful and considerate and things worked
well under his tour. So anyway, right next door to that there was a building that had high fencing
security around it and thick walls. And we had a worldwide communication relay place that
came out of…from America and it ran around the world and it came through this site. And so,
the Germans had to protect that from—nobody was allowed on the other side of the fence.
(00:44:24)
Veteran: On each of the 4 parts of the roof there, we had 50 caliber machine guns. Anybody that
got in the fence got killed. Germans knew it. When the SDS showed up, they showed up with
water cannons and they just blew those guys away from that compound. So, they would come in
�20
regularly. Now, when I had been there in Germany years ago, I was over there in ’57, as you
know, to ’62, I lived in housing in Frankfurt and I got to know the Germans and a lot of the guys
that worked on stuff. And I had beer with them and I traded things like a carton of cigarettes,
maybe I could get a gallon of paint or something. And so, those guys were still there when I got
there as a major. I had been promoted. I was promoted at the age of 30. I was up a 5%. They
picked me up and my infantry duty did that. But when I got there, the Army Security Agency
looked down upon a lowly infantryman. So, they pulled Major England out of the headquarters
in service company and put me in charge of it and said, “There. We will get him out of the
building.” So, I had a muster of all the troops. I had a signal corps company in that building, plus
our headquarters people and I told the enlisted men, I said, “If you act strange, I’ll move you out
of the building into—there’s concrete blocks all over the floor on the ground of the motor, you
know, where their motor vehicles were parked around the building, and you’ll live out there.”
My first sergeant was as mean as a snake. (00:46:07)
Veteran: The military police? First sergeant? Perfect. We talked the same language. So, I had
very few people that I knew that understood what I was saying. We started with that. Those guys
destroyed that building, between the two units: the headquarters unit and the security unit.
They’d go in there and they’d take something and they’d smash the porcelain urinals. Or, they
would take the washing machines in the building and put something in it and clog it up and it
would destroy the machine. They’d bring their motorcycles inside the building and change the
oil where they slept. They threw things out through the windows instead of opening the
windows—threw them out the building.
Interviewer: So, why were they doing these things?
Veteran: Because nobody was in charge.
�21
Interviewer: Oh.
Veteran: Once they left the headquarters, they’d act like animals. Now, I knew what animals
were. I’d lived like one for a long time. And we got along just—you see them here—we got
along just very well. But we clean up after ourselves. That’s the difference. They didn’t clean up
anything. And what they were were spoiled brats. Most of them, maybe 90% of them, were draft
dodgers. And how could you—you say, “Well, how could they get in the Army?” When they
found—when their number came up to get drafted, they’d sign up for 4 years and they got in the
Army Security Agency
business because they were brilliant. All of them had brilliant, high IQ
idiots. All of them. And I got along with very few of them. So anyway, I was and outcast.
Anybody that worked with me was an out—they didn’t like that military police first sergeant
either. So, I forget who was commanding. There was a general officer that was in commanding. I
had a polite relationship with him to start with. And they had lost over 50,000—I ran inventory.
You always run inventory of everything you have whenever you change command. (00:48:13)
Veteran: And they had never done that. And I found at least 50,000 dollars missing. And the
supply officer that was right on it—in other words, he was willing to…he was not a brilliant—
one of those smart guys. So, he was an outcast. So, we planned ways of fixing that. And what we
did is 2 things: we went and looked other places besides where we were. I had teletype machines.
What would anybody steal those for? They were outdated but they were gone and they were on
our books. Well, we found some in Berlin, we found some at Asmara and all the outstations,
because Army security had outstations that were not doing things. And they had reports but they
weren’t using them. We found everything except $5000. Everything. And the general had a…he
could sign for $5000. We wrote that baby off; got rid of it. We did that. And in the end, I got
together with my buddies; my German beer drinking buddies. I got my favorite drinking buddies.
�22
I also went to the 3rd Polizeiregier, The third police district of Frankfurt, of my city. Talked to
them; we had an understanding. Then I went to the military police and I had an understanding
with them too. You pick up any of my boys for anything, I don’t care what it is, you call me and
then we can pick them up. And then we take care of them. We don’t want them in your system
more than anything, that way we can protect whatever. If they were drunk and they want them to
say something we didn’t want them to. They said something about how they can keep things
secure, anything. So anyway, those turned out to be very…they were excellent. So, I went up to
the general and we had staff meetings and everybody would report certain things. And he had
battalion-size and other detachment-size senior officers would come in to…monthly or
bimonthly staff meetings and talk about various administrative things as well as operational
things. (00:50:31)
Veteran: One of the things is safety. And they all had these low, low accident report reports. And
mine were coming up and theirs were going down. And 50% of mine, whatever staff, was in
some kind of altercation. And so, the general called me in the office, closed the door, and said, “I
want to know what’s happening.” I said, “Well general, want it on a nutshell? You’re being lied
to. Somebody goes out there and has a fender bender, even if it’s $50, I report it. They have a
fender bender they are covering that stuff.” He said, “Dismissed. Thank you.” And he and I got
to know each other real well. Now, he found out about Charlotte. Charlotte showed up in there
and she got in the ladies’ club. And they thought she was a—they thought I was a lieutenant. Oh
no, a second lieutenant or first lieutenant. They never saw me. And so, this is a lieutenant’s wife.
And so, when the general’s wife came in and she sat down, my wife said to her, “Hi Heloise.
How are you?” “Oh fine, Charlotte. Jeez, I am glad you’re here.” The women just about died.
Because the lieutenant colonels’ wives and all that other stuff in there and they tried to go after
�23
her. And so, she turned—she turned them around and she said, “You go check it out with
Heloise. Don’t you talk to me.” And she was her own woman. (00:52:03)
Veteran: And she’d go, “I don’t want to hear your stuff.” So, they got wise and they found out I
am a commanding officer of the place and I am in charge of all of their personnel that worked for
their husbands and shut your mouth. So anyway, they got along with her but they found out that
she is a priceless cook. She worked for Stouffer’s before they froze everything. She has every
one of their recipes and fondue was the thing that was in in ’68 and ’69 and all that stuff. I mean,
’69 and ’70.
Interviewer: ’70, yeah.
Veteran: So, the general had…I had a guy, I think he was kind of a little bit…But anyway, but he
was a good cook too and so they were having get togethers. And so, the general’s wife got ahold
of Charlotte and says, “Do you have any fondue recipes? You know, I’d like them.” So, she gave
them 30 of them; take your pick. There was nothing for her to do. All she did was change one
ingredient. Stouffer required one ingredient changed so it’s never ever the product that they have
registered.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And then she helped the cook with some...some things you could do with steak. And
some other things you could do with some other kinds of food and to fish. And so, then that went
on for a while. So, the general—the wife was so thrilled with that that the general was just beside
himself. We didn’t live in their house but we certainly occupied it with the food side of it. And
we tried to slow this guy down because he was dressed kind of funny. He really needed to be
focused on cooking and acting strange. But anyway, so that went along very well. Now, one of
�24
the things I inherited, along with this accident stuff, we had a guy that got drunk one night and he
went down an up ramp going from the major road into a major highway. And a tanker truck
plowed into him and exploded and killed him. So, all of a sudden, safety became a big issue. And
that’s when I had this thing with the general. So, his other people started reporting right and oh,
you should have seen their records. Mine were—he went and gave me a hug and a kiss.
(00:54:24)
Veteran: Mine—compared to theirs. And then okay, so then the other thing that happened was
we ran a little club and it was very loosely done. I mean, we sold beer and I don’t know what
else. Maybe hard alcohol. I am not sure about that part. But we had little snacks and we would
call it ‘The Speakeasy.’ Or ‘spook easy’ or something ‘easy.’ But anyway, one guy went upstairs
and he was drunk out of his mind and he drowned. I had inherited that. How do you stop that?
Well, I knew exactly how to do that. But this other guy says, “Boy, I am glad I am not down
there anymore.” He didn’t know what—they didn’t know what to do because they were an elite
class; they didn’t have to worry about trash. So, we worried about trash. We knew what to do
with trash. So, what I did is I hired some guys off duty and they were my bouncers and they
could handle anybody. Fact is, when I went in there dancing with Charlotte, they picked me up
and hauled me out of the place when it was time to go bed bye. Get out of here.
Interviewer: But in the meantime, you had mentioned at the beginning of taking over this
particular job, you had all these guys making a mess of the place and trashing it. Were you
able to get them in line by threatening to evict them? Or did you and your sergeant manage
to get them to behave?
Veteran: Well, there’s other little things that we had up our sleeve. First of all, we changed the
order of discipline for things. So, I had room leaders that could discipline to a certain level. And
�25
then I had senior non-commissioned officers that could discipline to another level. Then I had a
first sergeant that disciplined and they stayed away from me because they knew that I was ugly
and I had an imagination that would kill a snake. (00:56:13)
Veteran: So, they didn’t—and it was hard for them to get an article 15. That was us
administrative. And I’ll tell you about that later. We used it once. Once. I was there two years
and we used it once? I had a couple hundred troops in there. And I went after that captain that
had that signal outfit. Went after them too. They had to listen to what we are doing. Haircuts had
to be done right. I moved a barber inside or they could go down the street. The one inside had to
take care of them and they’d get personal care and all that stuff. This was a facility. They called
them in Germany kasernes. It was a military compound. I had about 4 or 5 of those. The other
ones were all named and I kept certain things in those other places. Like trucks, I kept them one
place and other things, supplies at another. And the stuff at Rhineland airbase was all avionics
and things like that. So, what this compound had—new name to it. And it had been around for a
long time. I don’t know what that was but it was certainly not there when I left in 1962 and it
must have been installed after that. So, I went downtown to my buddies, my drinking buddies,
and I said, “What do you think?” They said, “I don’t know.” “Do you have anybody you like?”
“Oh, we like President Kennedy. We thought he was very good man.” I said, “I think you’re
right.” So, what we did: there was a—every concrete wall has a—an indentation of a certain size.
And what they do, they build a frame and then they have a flat piece and then they paint it and
put the letters on it and jam it in there and seal it. So, what we did: we used military intelligence.
It was gray and teal blue. That’s a nice, nice combination. Looks great. So, they built a sign for
me. (00:58:19)
�26
Veteran: It didn’t cost me anything, I don’t think. And they put that ‘Kennedy Kaserne’ and they
installed it. Now, we didn’t involve the mayor. When you have one of these things I found out,
and I will tell you about that in a minute, but we didn’t invite anybody. We didn’t invite the
commander, the general, down. We didn’t invite the leadership of Frankfurt, Germany. But we—
our drinking buddies came, my German drinking buddies, and some of the other guys that
worked for me. And we had a little ceremony. And we went in and we had soda and cupcakes or
something that somebody made or bought. And that’s how we celebrated that. Years later, I
found out from somebody who commanded the unit after me. Oh. So, he wrote that down and
put it outside his commanding officer building, how the building was named. What we failed to
do is…The unit command of the general was supposed to send to the USFE, the United States
Forces of Europe, a recommendation to name a compound the ‘Kennedy Kaserne.’ They would,
whatever, consider that and they’d discuss it with some of the ambassador people. and they’d
say, “Okay, well go ahead and ask Bonn.” And you’d send it to Bonn and they think it over.
Would that be compatible? And with our society, would they be receptive and whatever. And
then they send it back to USFE. USFE send it to the United States, they’d rule on it. I think
congress would give their blessing and then it would be sent over and a year and a half later, you
might get a sign. We did it in 3 weeks. (01:00:09)
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: Now, the building was a mess. So, I asked these engineers to come into the building.
And these guys are craftsmen. I mean, if the building—something wrong with the window, they
could build a whole frame and everything, put that in there. So, they went through the building
and in 1969, $20,000 worth of—minimally—minimum damage in a 6-story building. It had 2
elevators, it had a laundromat that was just terrible. It was—it stank. It was terrible. And the on
�27
and on and on story. And downstairs in the basement, they redid what I call the ‘spook easy.’
They redid that, put in a nice bar. And the ceiling was made out of you know those egg cartons?
You turn them backwards and you paint them black? Well, that was a fire hazard. I had them rip
those out and it’s still black. It didn’t matter. There were white dots where they removed the egg
cartons so that was stars at night. So, we left it. And then, I had my bouncers. And then we
earned so much money from the ‘spook easy.’ And also, I had Coke machines throughout the
command. And I’d take all the money from it and I’d use 50% of it. So, Charlotte and I created a
travel company called ‘The Red Bull Express.’
Interviewer: Alright. We are now on session number 3 with Roger Talmadge who is
threatening to be the longest interview I ever record but so be it. We had followed your
military career into your second tour in Germany in the early 1970s and you had been
talking in the last piece about having taken money from the club that you ran in your
building to help finance what you referred to as a travel agency that you had labeled ‘The
Red Bull Express’ well before the caffeine laden drink that came later. Now, with that
you—was this something where you paid for the trips? Or you just organized them and the
servicemen who went on them had to pay themselves? (01:02:24)
Veteran: Oh, let me back up a little bit. First of all, as the commander—commanding officer of
the headquarters of the service company of the United States Army…I guess service command.
Anyway, whatever it was, the…It was administrative in nature. And so, I had court martial
authority. I also had the authority to be one of the—I could approve or disapprove promotions
even though they worked in staffs that were all over the place but they were on my morning
reports. And I had to keep that current. And I discovered that the men had very high IQs, very
low interest in serving in the combat side of the Army or any other service, but they wanted to
�28
avoid the draft. So, this whatever—I had a whole company full of draft dodgers assigned, like I
had mentioned before, in Berlin, all the way across bits and partials of Europe and into Asmara,
Turkey. And so, what I wanted to do is save them from themselves. And when I was first there as
an enlisted man myself in Europe, working in the intelligence service, I really did a lot of dumb
things. I still do but not to the line that I did then. So, what I wanted to do was give them an
alternative so they could find something that would attract them and they’d do that instead of
these other things, which we will sort of touch on a little bit. So, my wife and I created the travel
service. (01:04:16)
Veteran: And that’s the reason we embellished or created the ‘spook easy’ so people would—
they could have a drink and a nice little snack. Nothing big, not a restaurant style thing, and go to
bed after their service—their work shift completed. And there were other things that we did that
was kind of interesting for them and we went a step further. We even—to get their wives or
families and take them places. And we could use Army equipment. So, that means I could use an
Army bus. But these things with them, with the enlisted men primarily, we used 55 passenger
buses to go to places, and such like that. We—one of our favorite places was Amsterdam. And in
order to put one of these things together, we had to first know how to do this. Now, we didn’t
know; we had never done it before. But we knew that there must be some way to do it. So, one of
our advisors was Amexco. And that’s a travel agency in Europe and other parts of the world. and
they’re rather inexpensive and they’re thorough and they do their really excellent work in putting
together really safe and fun travel spots that are favorites. So, they coached us a little bit and
we’d go out and experiment with that. And then something come along and we’d trade from
buses to something else and then we kept on going. So, the—one of the first places we went to
was Amsterdam. And we went there…I forget when it was. It was in the fall of ’69 I think it was,
�29
or later. But the idea was we went to a bunch of restaurants, we went—we visited a diamond
factory. A diamond factory? My goodness. (01:06:22)
Veteran: And then we went to a place where they had the goats or whatever that produced the
milk and from that they made different kinds of cheese. Oh, that was away from Amsterdam but
nonetheless. So anyway, we got into the detail of a whole bunch of stuff and collected
information. Then we went back and we tried to work out, okay, what could we do to have a trip
and you needed a place to stay, so we worked out 2 or 3 alternatives. Mixed in 2 or 3 restaurants.
And then we mixed in the rivers and canals in Amsterdam. We connected them and we would
not rent 1 but 3 or 4 of those things and we’d set up—they would tell us how to—where to go
because we were going all the favorite places that they knew that the visitors and tourists like.
And some of them were not so tourist places too, which meant that that’s where they went with
their family. So, we tried that. We were going to make that up. We advertised—we never did this
before—we advertised in the organization and it was enlisted men. And when I ran out of
enlisted men, we’d go to the 87th Evacuation Hospital, or whatever it was called, in Frankfurt,
Germany. It was a full service hospital. And we’d pick up the rehab folks as long as they were
ambulatory, could feed themselves. And we’d baby them. And so, everybody paid something but
if a trip cost $400, they only paid $200. And the rest was paid by our Coke machines in our
various facilities in Germany. And then the Amexco would give us an idea how they negotiated
for better prices in the restaurants. So, the first trip we made to Amsterdam, the restaurant—it
was 26 entrees, just samplings. And so, you’d come in and you’d sample; you’re not having a
real meal. (01:08:40)
Veteran: So, you’re not paying for a real meal. But I mean to tell you, after you’ve sampled half
of 26, you are absolutely loaded. I mean, you have too much to eat. And then they’d have nice
�30
drinks. They could be alcohol or non-alcohol drinks. And very nicely done. And you’d have
enough food that nobody got bloated and that was important. So, alright, we did that and we tried
that. So, we tried that a couple of times. And then, we ended up with 2 buses going to
Amsterdam. Had to make sure everybody had their passports and all that administration was
taken care of. And everybody had money. And so, we continued that and that worked very, very
well. And so, then we tried other little trips. We took them to a lot of castles, some very
interesting places where events took place in antiquity. They thought that was wonderful. We
took them also to the Hague and other places. We got away from Amsterdam and some really
neat small, just very small fishing villages. And then we’d go from the fishing villages to the
northern portions of where they had a variety of corporations of factories that developed gouda
cheese and oh my goodness. And the samplings there. We didn’t have to go to lunch there
because we had all the samples they had. (01:10:19)
Veteran: And there was—the people were really glad because we were so interested. And the
young people they really took an interest in because young people were coming and asking a lot
of questions. And some of them had their wives and some of them didn’t. And so, that was
superb. So, that was motivating for us. Then we’d say, alright. We took them some more
different places around Germany. And not far distance; we didn’t cross any borders
because…Actually, the Russians didn’t like us going in the different parts of the world with—
their world—with bus loads of people with—
Interviewer: Down into Eastern Europe.
Veteran: Eastern Europe, that’s right.
�31
Interviewer: Now, did you ever travel to Switzerland or did you stay just in Germany and
the Netherlands?
Veteran: We could go into Switzerland just fine. We went into France but we didn’t go east
Europe at all because we had high security people. these people would have been worth a lot of
money if you get them to talk. And so, and they knew a lot. They were very well educated but
they are also very well entrenched in our systems and how our systems worked. So, we’d protect
them in every way but they needed to keep—get off the streets and get away from the bad stuff.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: So, then we continued to do that and then, one occasion, we set up—we bought two
German railroad passenger pulling cars. We rented those out and they hauled those on a regular
trip to where they took other visitors from around the world to France. Normandy was the area.
And they had the guys and their wives. We took some people from the hospital on that one.
(01:12:18)
Veteran: And we filled up the train. We wanted to fill up the train; that was our goal. And again,
they only paid 50% and the other percent was that Coca Cola company, or whatever we sold out
of there, vending machines. I called it—my boss the general said, “I don’t care what you do with
that thing. That sounds like a good thing, keeps them busy.” And our incident rates started
coming down significantly. Because they’d get in Frankfurt and they’d get in trouble with
something and it was just problematic and we didn’t want them to lose their security clearance
because some silly event that they got involved with. So, this took—this really helped. So, I
called the embassy and I talked to I don’t know who it was. I said, “We are sending 2 railroad
cars worth of these fine technicians.” I told him who we were so that made this sensitive; they’ve
�32
all got clearances and they need to be really looked after and watched and encouraged and kept
away from somebody that might want to give them a special trip—tour trip—to somewhere off
in the countryside. And sure enough, they—the embassy said, “We will have somebody to greet
them. Would that be alright?” I said, “Yes, yes if you can welcome them to Normandy, they’ll be
all ears, there will be a lot of questions. And I know you have places that have restaurants and
good food.” And the guy said, “Yeah, you heard right. Absolutely.” So, the guys went on the trip
and I was very pleased because they were safe on the railroad train. The folks were very attentive
to them. And they…But I don’t know what happened in Normandy. And so, they came back and
they were really excited. And these private first class and corporals and maybe a couple of
sergeants. And here they got off the train and there’s a 2-star general in uniform, “Welcome to
Normandy! I am so glad to see you! My, what a pleasure! What an honor.” And those guys just
about died because everybody thinks that—thought that as an enlisted man, I am just mincemeat.
(01:14:25)
Veteran: This guy thought—they thought they were all 4-star generals and he was trying to greet
them but he was really nice. He was a right guy. That’s probably why he was the attaché. Really
is. Probably why he was the attaché. So, we thought that was kind of neat. One of the things that
we did when we brought them to various restaurants also in Germany, we would go to every site.
If we were taking them to a series of castles, we would catch—the tour guides would tell us. We
didn’t exactly go through the whole tour. But we went to some places like Neuschwanstein and
places like that that everybody has heard about. And I lived in those places on and off for about 6
years. On and off 6 years when I was there in the ‘50s. So, I was familiar with them but I didn’t
have the detail. I knew that they were beautiful and well-appointed and the guys spoke several
languages so you never had a problem. So, what I tried to do is link—what Charlotte and I tried
�33
to do—is link the castle or the place that we were going with various restaurants. And we’d
investigate those restaurants and we tested the food. And we had a great big plaque, it was a 2foot by 2-foot plaque. And those that they plaster on one of their—one of their windows facing
the roadway as you approached the restaurant. And it was this 6-legged red bull and it said, “Red
bull approved,” in English and they were so proud of those things. We just leaved it at the
restaurant, we never ever came back. We’d drive by maybe a year later and that thing is still
hanging on the wall. And then it encouraged, they told us later, some people drive by that place,
Americans or English-speaking people, and they’d stop at that restaurant because they saw that
approval sign. (01:16:14)
Veteran: And that was nothing. That was something we just made up out of the blue. And it
wasn’t some nationally known…So, that worked out well and so we were so pleased. But we
worked very diligently with the police, the military police and the German police, because
anytime these guys got picked up, I had an arrangement where the lieutenant colonels, the
majors, the senior sergeants, and myself would pick them up off the street and we’d get them off
the street and get them settled down and out of the danger of compromised. And the Germans
understood it and the military police understood it. So, that helped us. As far as…I think—I
don’t know if I mentioned anything else about our vehicle safety record.
Interviewer: Yes, you did.
Veteran: Okay, so that helped that because it—they helped us there too because sometimes
they’d—if they had too much to drink, we didn’t want them driving and that was one of the
reasons why our report went way down and our incident rate with it because other things they’d
get involved with. They didn’t get in any fights. They’d get in the main railroad station and then
they would be very polite instead of being weird. And the soldiers would bring each other back
�34
sober or at least if they were funny, they’d help bring them back safely to their quarters. So, that
was self-service and they were busy doing some positive things. We introduced them to some
classical music. We sent them to the border, close to Czechoslovakia. There is some wonderful
small towns down there where the music—that was written, authored, and continued to play
there years now and centuries later from Wagner and beautiful stuff from Beethoven and all the
other—Mozart. All kinds of classical things and they weren’t—these guys were regular folks but
when they got into it, they got hooked. So, that worked out well and we spent a lot of time doing
that. (01:18:29)
Veteran: Now, the other stuff I was doing is absolutely boring. But we had a rebellion in our
headquarters. The military police rebelled because they worked long hours and sometimes
double shifts. You know, after an 8-hour shift, you run another one because you’re short or
something is happening and they were not treated with respect. And the general wanted that: he
wanted everyone to be respect. You know, find out what was going on. And so, one evening they
were—I was tipped off they were meeting in the conference room where the officers and they’d
have their officers have meetings for the staff. So, I walked in, I took my jacket off and said, “I
am Roger. What’s your name? I want to know what’s going on.” And at first, they were scared,
they didn’t know if they should run. And they told me what was going on. It was small stuff.
Small stuff that communicated, you know, you are valuable and we need you and you’re not
doing what I am doing because you do it and you’re called to do it and you’re trained and I am
not. and that—I could have been the lieutenant colonel saying that, I could have been one of the
majors, I could have been a command soldier major. But they needed these guys to do work well
and not be a forgotten entity because they were administrators and they are low grade. Well, that
spooled into some really great things. I mean, I bump into them even now and it’s still Roger but
�35
we respect each other. But they really looked after me too. I mean, there is nothing I couldn’t
need. My car messed up and so I took it to one of my kasernes and my supply sergeant, who used
to go with us on these trips to get them ready, he got some guys together and they rebuilt my ’67
Chevrolet motor and it ran well. (01:20:25)
Veteran: And then it blew up so I got rid of it and got a new one, a Volkswagen bus. But they
were trying to help out and so I paid for all the parts and I tried to pay them. They wouldn’t have
it; they were insulted that I would even dare and suggest such a thing. So, I had to move our—I
was told I had to move quickly in June or July of 1971. And they wanted to send me back to the
United States to do some work in the Pentagon because of my background training in computer
science. And I told them that we were moving our headquarters from Frankfurt, Germany to
Augsburg because they were consolidating some of the Army Security Agency assets and they
wanted to have a composite site that would function for all of your—from that location. And it
had lots of ground around it to facilitate this. And what I found out, okay, when they lost $50,000
worth of equipment and they had a poor job of keeping up with it, I had everything marked and I
had it barcoded so if it got lost and anybody else got it, we could find it. I did that to the office
too because those clever people, they thought just because I was sleeping in this office building
across the street, I’d go into one office and inventory it and then the next day, they knew the next
office to be inventoried was coming up. So, when I left the place, they would move the stuff over
here to the other place. And so, I was inventorying the same stuff the next day. So, what we did,
we took a—I would still have my hands on that computer outfit so I worked up a barcode system
for everything. I went back and I’d start all over again. And all of a sudden, the furniture wasn’t
moving and we found out where the holes were. (01:22:31)
�36
Veteran: Once we got that done, then we started working on some other smaller equipment,
which was very vital to our operation and got that done. And then what we wanted to do is then
as we got ready to go to Augsburg, we put them in our trucks. And I had a guy that had a sheet
that—inventory of what’s going on, what series of barcodes went into that vehicle. And they
wanted to ship me out of the place. I said, “No, I can’t do it. I am not going. I am helping the
general.” And the people in Washington D.C. and the Army Security Agency headquarters said,
“Well, let’s retire him if he doesn’t want to go to the assignment we’ve got for him.” So, the
general got online and says, “Blow it out your backside. We got to move and we got to move
which makes sense.” Because you take this truck and you unload it in in an orderly fashion. You
don’t lose anything and your inventory is up and you have it right here and you can double check
it. And then you come back to Frankfurt and you load another truck or railroad car. It doesn’t
matter. But there’s always a sergeant there that’s going to inventory that stuff. So, we stayed for
that and then I left. In the meantime, some things changed. I got ahold of my military intelligence
branch and I said, “They are making me available.” They sent me to Vietnam a second tour. And
so, I arrived in Vietnam I think in July of 1971.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you got yourself out of the Pentagon assignment entirely at that
point? (01:24:14)
Veteran: That’s the second time I did it. First time was to go to Germany. Second time was to go
anywhere.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: It didn’t matter.
�37
Interviewer: Alright. Now, but they still needed people…I mean, ’71 they are drawing
down. Vietnamization is going on but they needed people with your kind of specialization?
Or…?
Veteran: Yeah, they needed—they were looking for people to work it. I found out later I didn’t
go to a combat unit. I figured I would. I didn’t go. I was wearing my military intelligence brass. I
was getting into military intelligence, if you will, direct or unassigned assignment. And the
unassigned assignment was these are round out assignments, management assignments out of the
normal course of your travel or career development. So, that’s what this was.
Interviewer: Okay. Were you still a major at this point? Or you—
Veteran: Yeah, yeah, I just made major. I made major after five and a half years being a
lieutenant, second lieutenant.
Interviewer: Okay, because you were a major back when you met your wife, right? I think
that was—
Veteran: I had just been promoted in October of ’58. I was promoted to major and I met her in
December.
Interviewer: ’68. ’68.
Veteran: ’68.
Interviewer: Yep. Okay,
Veteran: ’68.
Interviewer: There we go. Okay. Alright, so now what does—you’re going to Vietnam.
What does your wife do?
�38
Veteran: That was a problem because we still had the—we had 4 children then. Andrew was
born the first of our 4 boys. And I still had a son and 2 daughters from the first marriage. I had
custody of the children and my wife signed up to raise them. So, we coordinated with the Army
and what the Army did is they stationed her in Salina, Kansas, which was at a former B-49
bomber shaped…No, what’s…Anyway—
Interviewer: Strategic Air Command? Or…? (01:26:21)
Veteran: Yeah, that. Thank you. Strategic Air Command site. And it was still operational for
training purposes. In other words, people would come in and use it and leave. But there was no—
there was nothing there. Nothing in the hangars. So, they were put in a home, a nice home for the
family, and a nice community. She got in with the ladies and we knew the base commander at
that site was Lieutenant Colonel Prince and we knew him from Germany because he counseled
us with the family because he knew the situation, why I was there early with her and I wanted to
make sure that we had counseling for the children and ourselves as we needed it. So, I let him
know…I let him know that I am leaving and he said, “Okay. That’s good and we will take care
of them like we did in Germany.” And so, they knew him; that was easy. And so, she set up
housekeeping. I purchased—I took my…I bought a brand new 1971 Chevy station wagon and
the reason I am saying that: I wanted her to have some good transportation. And there’s a little
story behind that that will come back later. Okay, so she had a new car and the place was superb.
The schools were fine also. So then, I departed for Vietnam.
Interviewer: Alright. And now, where are you sent to in Vietnam? (01:28:03)
Veteran: I am sent to Saigon itself. And I was part of the…it was the Army’s major command in
that area for Vietnam and…
�39
Interviewer: Well, there’s the MACV, Military Assistance—MACV: Military Assistance
Command Vietnam. That’s the main operation.
Veteran: That’s the over—
Interviewer: That’s the overall one, yeah.
Veteran: That’s it. And then specifically, I was assigned to the embassy and I worked in U-S-AI-D, USAID: United States America—
Interviewer: Agency for International Development.
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: And I was in facility two. And I was in the management directory. My boss was a
retired brigadier. I think he was in armor. And—but he was a—one of the embassy—had an
embassy rating, whatever grade, I don’t know what it was. What it would have been—it’d have
been a high level, a senior officer within the embassy complex. And our job was to fund, find
funding, or at least get budgets, work with budgets, in such a way that everything was
accountable. So, we could—whatever monies the embassy received and if it was in an area of
construction, we could see what was allocated. And allocated and follow the trail from beginning
to end and be able to report on that in a sensible way. That means that the director would go to
the upline with those reports, maybe using one of us as the source. Of course, we went on—we
visited the sites sometimes when necessary. So, we built field hospitals and those field hospitals
were kind of unique in a sense that they weren’t manned by American personnel. They came
�40
from Australia. Australia sent in military personnel: surgeons and doctors and nurses and all
kinds of things. (01:30:23)
Veteran: And but they didn’t bring any guns. And so, they got in there so we traveled around,
we’d visit those hospitals as they were operating and give a report on that. So, the money was
used to pay for that but also to run, to operate the thing later on. Now, we also a lot of equipment
came in there and we wanted to see it operational. And if something wasn’t operational, we
wanted to replace it if it couldn’t be repaired. So, it would be state of the art and operational. And
we had people come in there from Cambodia, everywhere, Laos, different places. They would
come in. That was where they could walk in or somehow get into our area of Vietnam, which
would have been III Corps, which is the Saigon complex. And of course, we took care of the
babies and any surgery from the folks that were living in that general area. I think if somebody
were even the enemy that got hurt or banged up or torn up or whatever, they would try to help
them and transfer them to where the next place they should go as they regained their health. So,
today it was one of those efforts that it was inclusive instead of exclusive and it also was wellrounded with the proper attitude towards life. And we liked that. We’d build airfields, we’d build
secure compounds for units to operate their logistics function. We also paid for Air America.
Interviewer: Can you explain what that was? I know what that was but can you explain
what that was. (01:32:12)
Veteran: Well, we had two kinds of airplanes. We had the silver kind to travel around the
countryside and they were our day time operation and they were kind of out in the open but they
handled our essential travel of our embassy personnel, military personnel, as the embassy
coordinated to accomplish anything within the, I guess you could say, Asian part of the world.
The black aircraft were cargo and personnel carriers and they went to unexplained places at night
�41
and the next day they’d come back at night and we cleaned them up—had them cleaned up—and
they were parked mostly at the Tan Son Nhut Air Base, which is just on the outskirts of…
Interviewer: Saigon.
Veteran: Saigon. I lived in two places. The first place I lived was in 5 oceans. It was a bachelor
hotel, if you will. And we were contiguous to an outdoor shopping center for Vietnamese. And
it’s amazing who came in there. We—I don’t know who, but it is still there today. And all kinds
of materials would come in there and the reason why it was important to us: because it was a real
interesting and easy place for them to get somebody in there that could blow something up. And
maybe disturb the Vietnamese but mostly disturb us. So, we had security on our facilities that
was very strong. It was American as well as the Vietnamese security forces. And in this complex
marketing area, we had them there too. And we had them in these little towers that didn’t rise but
maybe a half a story and they were strategically located throughout the entire shopping center
area. (01:34:22)
Veteran: And at night, I know when I was on duty, I really thought that some of those guys were
sleeping so I’d throw rocks at those tin roof things and they’d make a horrible noise and I’d hear
some guy, “Ahhh!” falling out of his chair. I don’t know if he was sleeping but I wasn’t going to
let him sleep because that was dangerous. And we had other hotels that didn’t have that kind of
connection so their security was more direct and evolvable. And then later on, I was moved out
to near Tan Son Nhut, near the air base, so that security was a change We had security around
our hotel but we were also within blocks of the security that was around that Tan Son Nhut. And
that was important to us likewise. My buddy and I had earned some extra money. I kept—I sent
all my money home. So, I earned some extra money running the movie house at night and that’s
how I lived off the month. So, if I didn’t—if I ran out of money, well I didn’t eat anything. And I
�42
liked those little twisty cigars. I smoked one of those once in a while. The food was excellent.
We had it in different places and it was cooked by a mixed staff but I think they did a really
superb job. And so, that was kind of neat how that worked.
Interviewer: So, what’s the time span when you were there? So, July, ’71 to July, ’72?
Or…? (01:36:03)
Veteran: I was there from July, ’71 to July, ’72.
Interviewer: Okay. So, one-year tour. Okay. Now, a variety of things happened during that
time span, including the Easter Offensive in ’72. I think things had been relatively quiet
militarily much of ’71. No big campaigns except for Lam Son 719 in the north. But did
you—did things stay pretty much the same in terms of how you observed the way the war
was going or the way your job worked? Or did you notice changes over time?
Veteran: There were changes and they were predictable. We just didn’t know where. We knew
that when the New Year came and Tet, translate that into a time where the Orient is in some kind
of a mode of expansion and assuring themselves and in this case, they’d start…They’d start huge
amounts of personnel in the various areas, concentrated, and it had been happening everywhere. I
mean, I was over there ’66 when it’s the turn of the years, around January time frame. And they
came—they were coming over the border in different places and coming at us. And other places
were kind of blank. So, they had concentrations. And over the years ’67, ’68, almost decimated
the country. All the beautiful, wonderful religious architecture and other things that made
Vietnam very unique were destroyed. And then in ’69 and ’70 and ’71, and then I got in there
after that in July. But that—certainly in January and February, hear they come again. And they
were coming out of—this time, they were coming pretty heavy over the DMZ so they were
�43
coming out of North Vietnam, into South Vietnam and instead of 2 or 3, they had more troops to
help them. And also, they came across at some time around that time or after with tanks, T-76s.
Interviewer: Well, that was a big offensive in the spring, so it would have been after Tet.
There I mean—they call it the Easter Offensive because it is when it happened. And
that’s— (01:38:32)
Veteran: March. March or April.
Interviewer: Yeah. And they came in with heavy force, which was really something new, in
part because the American presence was a lot lighter than it used to be.
Veteran: That’s right. And also, it made our protection of these orphanages vulnerable. Now, the
Catholic Relief Society? We funded them. We gave them everything they needed. They needed a
truck, a car, whatever, vehicles, food, anything, we provided. We didn’t provide them any real
security. They might have had maybe one or two folks there or maybe more. I am not sure about
that but I do know that those are important to us and we had them marked and we would debrief
with their leadership and I was part of that. It was about that time, about March or April, that I
became the director of refugee operations for the embassy. And what they did, because of us
military, whenever the got short, somebody transferred out because I am sure it was over after,
whatever, 3 years while we would be the interim. We would cover the position as long as we
were supported by our upline. And so, our support said, “Okay, let him do it.” And the access I
had to how that system worked was excellent so I got some good information, in other words.
And I found out that these forces were going into those orphanages and they’d kill the men and
they’d ravage the moms and they were running the children of various ages. And they came
from—we don’t know who their daddies were but some of them were Americans. (01:40:27)
�44
Veteran: And so, that’s all you could tell them, you could know that they are. And nonetheless,
they were run into the jungle and tigers would eat them. I found that out my first tour, when you
get out in the jungle. So, we put two large Marine units. This is a holding force; you couldn’t
stop them. But there is a holding force and then put landing ship, tanks, ships on the beach and
emptied out I don’t know how many orphanages but as many as we can. We got the nuns, we got
the priests, and everybody out. And then, we tracked the Marines as best we could and took those
vessels and came down the coast of South Vietnam and into up the river in Saigon itself. And
then, we confiscated all of the state department housing. And everybody became foster parents,
whether they needed to or not. And so, we had C-130s that could combat aircraft coming in from
the west coast of America with powder and baby wipes and diapers and all kinds of stuff. And
also, our hospital got support. We needed support because some of those children were ill. And
so, that got them stabilized. Basically, that’s what happened. Meantime, through the embassy,
they were able to negotiate with 7 adoption agencies from Oregon to the southern tip of
California and they geared up. I mean, I don’t know what they did but they threw money at those
agencies and people and then we loaded our aircraft up and we’d fly in with whatever supplies
for Vietnam and fly the babies out. And they had people on board to keep them stable and
alright. (01:42:27)
Veteran: And as far as I know, all 2500 of them made it to the states safely and they are in this
country in 3 generations right now. Now, something happened in that tour too, which changed
my life. About that time, while that was going on, my former spouse had sent her husband over
to where we were living in Salina, Kansas, to the air base, and convinced my wife that my
former spouse, their mother of the 3 children—my son and 2 daughters—was there and she was
just feeling not too…She had a headache or something but he was going to pick them up and
�45
take them down to visit mom and bring them right back. And we had such altercations with her
and her new husband and he was having trouble with her anyway and he’d asked me for my help
and I hung up on him. I wouldn’t talk to him. I didn’t—I wasn’t nasty and saying, “Well, shame
on you.” So anyway, the sheriff came over to the house and took a statement from him that yes,
she’s downtown and take her to visit and bring her back this afternoon. Well, this afternoon
arrived, evening arrived, the next day arrived…The sheriff was livid and he put an APB out for
those children. And he kept close to them and it was only the husband that was with the children
and he was rather forceful with him. And he only got the girls. The son was in school somewhere
else in Arkansas or Oklahoma. (01:44:17)
Veteran: And so, they got into Baltimore and we found out where they lived and we got my
attorney and the authorities there got ahold of one of the Baltimore County police. They went to
the house and knocked on the door and they were told, “Oh, well we got permission.” “Oh,
okay.” And they walked away. My wife was getting ahold of me. My wife was thinking I am
going to divorce her. She lost—she weighs normally 125 or 28 pounds, she got down to 90
pounds. My—our baby Andrew was throwing up all the time; it was such stress in the house. So,
the Red Cross called me home. The commanding general that I was working under allowed me
to use his private phone to call home every night. He wanted to get a report every morning. And
sometimes, the operators would call up and “What are you using official lines for? I am going to
report you. You’re talking trouble.” They didn’t know what I was doing. And I said, “Fine. Make
sure you spell my name right but here’s the contact for this phone.” And they said, “Well, we
know that.” And I hung up on it. So anyway, I got home and, you know, we had a…it was a
crying welcome, I’ll tell you that. And so, somebody babysitted our son, because that’s all we
had in the house, and my wife and I traveled 1500 miles. Made a phone call in to find out where
�46
they were and it was a confirmation phone call. My daughter called the house to talk to my wife
and when she was on the phone, the mother came and slapped her and took the phone away so
we knew that we had a confirmation they might be in that house that they called out of. Didn’t
have caller ID but you could use some other ways of getting that information.
Interviewer: Yeah. (01:46:19)
Veteran: So, we drove around, we found the house that night and then we drove around. It was a
holiday so the next day was Monday and then after that it was Tuesday, which schools were
open, and we found the elementary school they ought to go to. We weren’t sure. So, what I did: I
dressed her up as a house wife and I put big curlers in her hair and she had a set of—she had a
gown on, a nightie—a nightgown—and a coat because it was November; it was cold. And I was
down the hill with the engine running, that same Chevrolet. So, and what’s interesting when you
run an operation like this, people don’t pay attention to the unusual and the usual. She looked
like everybody else. The only thing is, she was walking away from the school with the girls
instead of towards the school with the girls and nobody noticed it for three and a half hours. And
that’s how we have done some other little operations like that when I was over there in the ‘50s.
When different things would happen, people wouldn’t understand. So now, I was trained to do
that.
Interviewer: So, why wouldn’t the authorities help you? I mean, if you have been
established, shouldn’t they know that the permission thing was a lie? Or wouldn’t they
have been told that when they had gone back, and gotten them?
Veteran: The judge in Baltimore County didn’t care.
Interviewer: Oh.
�47
Veteran: And later on, when I still had the children and I got the girls back, he cut a court order
that I would pay…I would pay child support to them. So, I was persona non grata in the state of
Maryland, starting in 1972 and it stayed that way for a while. So anyway, so we got her back.
We—I got into Pennsylvania and I phoned Salina, Kansas to my attorney and got a bench order
that protected me. (01:48:25)
Veteran: I wasn’t doing—it wasn’t illegal and nobody was hurt and any of that stuff. Got them
back home and it was very difficult. I mean, my older of the two daughters was wetting the bed
and all that kind of stuff and really messed up psychologically and that’s where I got, again, we
talked to Colonel Prince, because he knew us already. And when we were in Frankfurt so now
that was a—so, he could attest to before and after. And so, he showed up in a court room. So,
after that—and of course the police were told it was okay and they did nothing and yet it was
civil authority against a civil authority and so we were stuck with that. So, we got her home, got
them home, and Colonel Prince sent over to me, to us, a male Army nurse who was a counselor,
an advisor. Psychologist. And Willis Succorto, Captain Willis Succorto. And I was desperate. I
didn’t have any answers. I was mad, I was furious. And I didn’t know what to do with that either.
I had responsibilities and I had to leave the next day. I couldn’t stay home to protect my family.
So, this guy was going to do two things: protect the family but, also, he was going to go through
some kind of a process that would help them get stable again. And then also, the son was in
Oklahoma? To protect him. (01:50:09)
Veteran: We didn’t want any shenanigans with that either. So, all that was set up. And then what
he did: he gave me a New Testament. He was a Gideon. I didn’t know that and he wrote in it.
And I’d say, “Oh, I need one of those.” So, he wrote his name, to me, and he signed it his name
�48
and the date was 18, November, 1970…in that case, it was ’71. It was before that when we
evacuated the babies.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And so, I got in the plane the next day and the 3 things you do on an 18-hour flight: you
either sleep, read the testament, or eat. And that’s what I did. I got into Saigon and I went back to
work and it was a mess and I still had this connectivity using the general’s phone just to check up
once in a while. I didn’t have to do it every day anymore. And so, I finished up with…He said
start in chapter—it started with page 179. It’s the book of John. I didn’t know where it was. So, I
finished that. I didn’t know what to do with that. And you or nobody else were there to tell me
what do I do next. Well, I went to the front of the book and that’s Matthew. And I went and I
read the book of Matthew slowly. I was reading it for myself. I had heard it before. I had been to
church many times but I knew my heart and I wasn’t good enough. And all these wonderful
people around me? They are good people but I have a dark heart so I just never made any
decision ever. Ever. Never. I’ve been in a synagogue, I have been in a Catholic church, I’ve been
in Protestant churches in University City. Nothing. So, read the book of Matthew and I was
startled to note that Matthew must have known John because a couple things in there are the
same. That was interesting. So, I kept reading and I got in the book of Mark. And the book of
Mark I found out is just like this device here. It takes pictures, just snapshots, of Jesus doing
stuff. He was busy. And there was no—it didn’t—it had no real explanation. (01:52:20)
Veteran: Something would happen and you could see it but there was no…it didn’t have any
words there to embellish it. So, I went through that and I get into chapter 15 and they already
crucified him. They had him hanging on the cross and he was bleeding and he was dying and he
gave up the ghost. And the centurion who was also a soldier that rose from the ranks, now I
�49
could relate to that, and he was in charge of the cohort or the detachment of this very important
crucifixion. Now, I didn’t crucify anybody but I came out of nowhere, out of the bottom, and
here I am a major. And I could have…Be—I had already been in charge of hundreds and worth
hundreds of millions of dollars in all that equipment and stuff and I thought hmm…And he said,
“This truly is the son of God.” So, I got on my knees on the 25th of November, 1971. I said,
“Lord, I can’t handle this. I can’t do it.” So, I came to the end of myself in 1971, November the
25th. And I have not been the same since. And I am still in basic training. So, I let my wife know.
She was thrilled. She thought I was a believer already because I was already a nice guy. Nice guy
doesn’t get you anything. Okay, they were pleased with that. And so, the embassy people took
me into their—under their wing because they do have things that go on on Sunday and other
things that go on and they got me involved. And so, I’d began to learn to read that Bible. Then
I—okay, so, then I went through the—moving the babies and there was some other things that
we did that were very helpful to local communities. Because I had lived with the Montagnards
on and off for weeks. (01:54:24)
Veteran: We were a combat unit and so we tried to do some things, again, leaving the door open.
One of the things that we did, and this sounds—this is wild. Ben…what was it? Uncle Ben’s
brown rice. Whatever you call that stuff. We—the folks planted that in our agricultural programs
and we tested it and then we proliferated that as much as we could across South Vietnam. And
for the first time, towards the end of my…before I went home in 1972, we became self-sufficient
enough to export rice and feed all of North Vietnam. And that broke our hearts when they came
down and started destroying those paddy fields. We got that far and that was excellent. In other
words, we were able to get—the money we had we didn’t have to go in and ask for seconds. We
used what we had well and had leftover because some of the stuff was really beginning to work.
�50
Our construction work was caught up. We had hospitals that were all functional. Everybody was
basically safe.
Interviewer: Now, as you were engaging in these various projects in different parts of
Vietnam, now are you dealing with local South Vietnamese authorities as you did this? Or
did you just stick with the Americans?
Veteran: No, I worked with the Americans and did not—I got reports from the field or from the
whoever the site contact was but I didn’t speak. I had somebody with me as a driver but not—I
didn’t have an interpreter with me anymore. I was on my own. And so, I traveled different places
and we’d go into a village and didn’t know anything in it. And so, whoever was there would take
us down to some Vietnamese restaurant. I don’t know what I ate. I might have eaten snake and
wouldn’t have known it. But I knew I was afraid of that stuff so I ate a lot of things that were
boiled and it was wholesome. It tasted great but it—I made sure it didn’t have any meat in it
because I don’t know what it was. I wasn’t going to do something that was going to get me.
(01:56:52)
Interviewer: Alright. Because the part of—I guess part of what I was interested in was I
mean there were substantial problems with corruption in the South Vietnamese regime and
with what happened to funds that the Americans sent over and where they went and what
happened to them. And so, I was kind of curious: were you aware of that kind of thing? Or
was the nature of your operation different so it wasn’t an issue?
Veteran: We were sensitive to it, not really aware of it in the sense that we caught that stuff
going on. But the people we contacted and we looked at the product that was laid down or raised
up, whichever. Or we’d get…I didn’t go to any rice paddy fields but we got these field
�51
photographs from our sources and we put in X and got Y plus out of it. So, we didn’t have to put
in X again. That kind of stuff. And so, those reports were positive. And yeah, I had very little
contact with the Vietnamese. I stayed away from downtown because a lot of our guys went
downtown for entertainment or whatever, food and stuff. And the places would get blown up.
(01:58:13)
Veteran: And they came—they retook—we hauled—they were hauled out in body bags right
through Tan Son Nhut. And so, we stayed away from that. One night we went over to Tan Son
Nhut to watch a movie. One of these adventure films that were being sent around a few times. I
forget what it was. It was a motorcycle movie. It was kind of fun to watch that. And doggone it,
those idiots hit the airfield with 120-millimeter mortars. We had to run. Never did get—we never
got a raincheck on that.
Interviewer: Okay. Did you have a sense of how the larger war was going? Are we winning,
losing, treading water? Or were you not even thinking about that?
Veteran: Wasn’t thinking about it but kept an eye on it in the sense that when they were dropping
B-52—making an arc-like raid in the mountains around us, we knew that there was problems.
And that—but that was recurring. didn’t know what the build up was looking like but it was
coming. And we were very concerned about that. But we also had some modicum of assurance
that, well, just keep busy and you’ll be fine. So, I played…My roommate and I played tennis.
And so, we didn’t have any weapons except a tennis racquet. No pistol, nothing. And so, we just
got through the day. We ate and did the things you did. You got up early and you worked all day,
about 10, 12, 13, 14 hours a day. and then we took an hour or two and we played tennis with the
popular forces, these 15 and 16 year-olds, young men that would have been equivalent to our
junior National Guardsmen. And they were trained. (02:00:10)
�52
Veteran: They were trained. They were sharp, they were fast. They had a great smile. A lot of
them spoke English. To me, they were a good skillset bunch. And they were in Saigon itself and
I am sure that they would have connected with any military unit, Vietnamese unit, they needed to
if they needed them. But we put the word out to the—we also played tennis with the president’s
helicopter pilots. All 4 of them. And then we put the news out: do you tell the president that
these guys, and you have their names, you know we go down here every afternoon and we
played tennis with them. You put their names down and make sure that they never, ever become
ambassadors for this country. And of course, they asked us why. And they knew the answer but
the answer was this: they never let us win. We’d get ahead and they’d duck their heads down and
feel bad. They said, “Oh, we are losing.” And then they’d just tear us up and be, you know, like
whatever it was and we were zero. But we did it a whole year, that. A whole year of that.
Anyway…
Interviewer: Okay. Now, as a large-scale offensive was going on in early ’72, was there
some kind of concern that this might be it? Or things were going to go south? Or...?
Veteran: As the director of a refugee operation, I was very concerned with what happens with the
DMZ. They would come across a large group. I don’t know if it was two or three divisions and
that’s a large group.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: That’s what I was—we were facing in the Ia Drang Valley in ’65. And that—those
three didn’t do so well. But we hadn’t been bombing anything in the North Vietnam. Again, our
numbers were beginning to drop. My unit pulled out in ’71. My complete division; all 15-16
�53
thousand of them were gone. And so, I—that’s probably why I didn’t go back to them. Plus, I
was an MI officer on an assignment, a management assignment. (02:02:27)
Veteran: I also had my security clearances so I was aware. I was given—I had privy to
information so when we built something or we supplied something, we knew how to handle it
because it was classified for those silver or those black aircraft at Tan Son Nhut. And the
equipment that went on board. Or the people that went on board.
Interviewer: Alright. (02:02:56)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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RHC-27
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
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TalmadgeR2152V3
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Talmadge, Roger S.
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2017-09
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Talmadge, Roger (Interview transcript and video, part 3), 2017
Description
An account of the resource
Roger Talmadge started college at the University of Maryland in the fall of 1967. He attended college while also working at Fort Holabird. Roger was promoted to major in 1968. He graduated with his bachelor’s degree in computer science in June 1969. Roger was then transferred to Frankfurt, Germany in 1969 to take charge of Army Security there. He remained in Germany until July 1971. Roger and his wife Charlotte created a travel company while in Germany that they called ‘The Red Bull Express.’ They traveled throughout Europe with soldiers and their families via the travel agency. Roger was sent to do a second tour in Vietnam in July 1971. He was stationed in Saigon, Vietnam and worked at the United States Agency for International Development in management. He left Vietnam in July 1972. While in Vietnam, he was engaged in various projects throughout the country, including rescuing Vietnamese orphans during an Easter offensive early in 1972.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American
Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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In Copyright
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Moving Image
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/755e3c99418fc989c91261b9dfe200ae.mp4
93fff3d2d38ec3203b4b52518769c509
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/80a559f62bf7447c9150f6c45fe9996f.pdf
bc0ab18a8590f0e16763a9ecddeabb95
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Roger Talmadge
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interview length: 2:02:50
Interviewer: Alright. Now, we had gotten in your story to your beginning of time in
Vietnam. But I guess there was one more story from Fort Benning that you wanted to plug
in here before we forget it.
Veteran: Yes. When I was executive officer of B Company, 1st Battalion Airborne 188th Infantry
Battalion, Winged Attack, we were in Harmony Church, that’s in the Fort Benning complex, and
we received an assignment. Bravo company received an assignment that eventually I became the
officer in charge and I knew nothing about what I was supposed to do. So anyway, the
assignment was this: there was a sister battalion in our—we were the first brigade-sized in the
11th air assault and we had 3 battalions. And I think the 187th or something—another battalion—
was commanded by a guy by the name of Lieutenant Colonel John Hennessey. And keep that in
mind because you are going to hear that name again. He retired as a 4-star general. And this is
how we became intimate friends. I knew exactly nothing what to do but the assignment was this:
he was going to have a battalion parachute jump into a designated area. This was a training jump
and what they were going to do is parachute into that area and then proceed off their drop zone
into their maneuver. And what we were supposed to do is assist them where they need assistance
�2
but mainly pick up their parachutes and just pile them up somehow and that’ll be fine. And you’d
have a day—a certain amount of hours. You’d get there early on and you’d get orientated. And
so, we get together with some of his people and they want to give us some high points on what to
look for. (00:02:14)
Veteran: We were a leg unit. Or if not that, non-parachutists. There were some parachutists in it
that understood but still, we were going to get the orientation. The orientation was this: come out
of the air and some will land on the ground and maybe some of them will have a rough landing
and they might need a little bit of help getting up and getting started so they can get out of their
parachute and then proceed with their unit forward. Others might land in a ditch and you have to
sort of help them out of that. But most dangerous for them would be if they landed in some of the
ponds that are out there because the chute tends to deploy again and it’ll begin to just come apart
and land all over the individual and pull them under water and he’ll drown. So, we need help
with those. But in any event, the idea is to get them all—help them out, no matter whatever is
necessary within the environment that they land in. And then, allow them to go ahead forward
and then you clean up. And then we have vehicles coming out; we will pick up our parachutes
and so forth. So, alright. So, we went out to the field and they pointed out certain areas there:
there’s a waterhole there that you need—okay. And this is over here and this is sort of a gulley
kind of a thing with the tree stumps in there so that’s a hazard. Alright, so then he left. And the
vehicles were out of sight because they didn’t want anybody to parachute into them. Alright, so
what I did is I talked to my NCOs, I said, “How would you organize this?” and my—some of my
very senior NCOs, E-6s or above, would say, “Okay, we’ve had this exercise before when we
were in the airborne so what you do with that hole over there: you put extra people there. Don’t
put two people, you’ll put 6 people there. Now over here, this area where maybe 20 or 30 people
�3
will drop into or more, you might only need 3 or 4. And so we are spread out and then they will
form but don’t let them crash land on you. Just get out of their way.” And what you said—and
what they didn’t tell us but our guys were telling us that had been in airborne, “What you do is
you then start—they’ll start—they’ll take the parachute and they will start making a figure eight
with each other. So, you go out there and you do that and get the dry parachutes in one place and
if there is anything wet, don’t mix them in.” (00:04:49)
Veteran: “You just pile them together. Don’t go setting them in because they have to be hung
and we showed you where the towers are. Well, there’s towers just for parachutes to dry. And
they’ll clean them up and check them up and see if they’re torn and all that stuff. So, they’ll be
inspected particularly. And or if they get in that gulley and get something ripped or just—that’ll
be separate too.” “Gotcha.” They didn’t tell us what would happen. So, they came over and the
first stick came out and they came in and they land beautifully, just like you see in the movies.
And the second stick comes in and one or two will land in the pond and everything else was
beautiful. Then the last stick comes in and they’re gone; that’s the end of the flight. And they
went and landed in that hole and another one or two landed in the pond. So, we go about our
business. And before the trucks show up, we get all the dry ones—we had so many in each pile.
And then the wet ones were all just piled up here and the only ones that got maybe shredded a
little bit were over here. What they didn’t tell us about—and of course my intelligence
background, I worked in signal intelligence operations where we would use that for gathering
information but we also used it for just for regular communication. There’s such a thing as a
classified document: it is called a signal operating instructions, SOIs. So, those were coming
down from the sky. They just—it was snowing. It was snowing SOIs and it was snowing wallets
that had come undone. (00:06:44)
�4
Veteran: And all kinds of credit cards coming down. And they were just everywhere, even in the
pond. So, we saved every one of those. All of them. And I said, “Now, the SOIs or anything that
has any signal stuff on it, you give to me.” So, they very carefully—all the non-commissioned
officers and the privates and whoever else, because our whole 180 of us were all out there except
the commander, he was having tea with the general or somebody. I don’t know what he was
doing but he was busy. So, they were wonderful. And everybody I made double check and if
somebody had SOIs, somebody would be with them and give them all to me and I had a duffle
bag and I filled up my duffle bag full of SOIs. And then I had another duffle bag of all this other
junk. And it was, like I say, pictures of girls and family and whatever monies they had. Don’t
know where that came from. And wallets with their ID cards and all that stuff in there. So, we
got all of that. So, they maneuvered and went in the field with Lieutenant Colonel Hennessey.
And so, he was out in the field and then—so, I took all of that stuff with me and then I went out
in the field. (00:08:09)
Veteran: And our units were out there maneuvering, doing stuff too. They got there by air and
we got there by air assault but we came in with the helicopters or something else or maybe by
trucks but we got there differently than they did. Well, after they got good and settled, I got with
one of my men and we went over and we hunted down where the…I think it was 187th
battalion—infantry battalion—where they were located. And so, went to the tent to see the
commanding officer and I was a first lieutenant and the guy with me was a corporal or
something. And so, we walked in with these big bags and the sergeant there said, “Okay, how
can I help you?” And I said, “I came to see the colonel. I got to see the colonel; it’s a pressing
matter.” He said, “Well, he is busy.” “Tell him I got highly classified documents that only he can
receive. Does he want them or do I take them to the G-2 for the division?” And the colonel came
�5
out and says, “I’ll see you now.” So, I took in these bags and I opened them up and I said,
“These are your SOIs. I worked in the intelligence service for a couple years and I know that you
didn’t want to have your buttons swing because you have…I mean, my goodness: this would
probably be worth thousands—tens of thousands—or I don’t know, a lot of money to somebody
that is not friendly to the United States of America. And over here, I can imagine the wives and
the, whatever, girlfriends in the neighborhood or whatever, your soldiers are missing their
wallets and they’re probably going to be embarrassed to stand in formation and not have a
wallet. So, here is this stuff and we don’t know what belongs to what. Okay, we—there’s money
in there and maybe you use it for goodwill or something. Don’t know what to do with that, sir.”
So, he said, “Well Lieutenant, thank you very much. I appreciate that. I will not forget this. You
have a good day. Goodbye.” So, I left. Watch out what happens after that. (00:10:18)
Interviewer: Alright. Now we will return from that interruption back to Vietnam. And
you’ve gotten there and you had gone out to Vietnam with sort of the advanced party of
what is now the 1st Cavalry Division Air Mobile and were building the camp at An Khê?
Veteran: Yes.
Interviewer: And you talked about clearing areas and doing different things and
discovering that you had been bathing by a minefield and all those sorts of things. Okay.
And then, at what point now—is there other stuff that happens before the rest of the
division comes in or is that…?
Veteran: There is one—one funny thing; it’s a small thing but it’s funny. There was this
gentleman that was with me, this tall man of color. You didn’t want to cross him so I made sure I
had the biggest guy in my unit with me and he and I could take on anybody: I’ll hold his jacket.
�6
But anyway, so here we are and we looked after each other and he wanted to call me by my first
name. I said, “No, we’re not going to cross that line. Not going to do that.” So, anyway…But I
know a couple times at night, we’d be up to watch the movie but next day we knew that we were
going to really pay for it because we’d have to get up around O dark thirty and get out there and
whack weeds together. But he’s real good at it and I was…like I said, I had my Viet Cong buddy
that helped me. So, we were going to mess then at night and I’d say—whatever his name was,
we will call him Jones— “You know Jones, the lieutenant would really do well if he had a
peanut butter sandwich.” And the mess sergeant would say, “Well, we are closed.” “You know
Jones, you didn’t hear me, did you? The lieutenant would really do well if he had a peanut butter
sandwich.” And the mess sergeant would say, “Well, we are closed.” So, Jones went over to the
mess sergeant and says, “If you want your brains rearranged, refuse him again.” “What did you
say, Lieutenant?” “The lieutenant would really like to have a peanut butter sandwich.” So, the
sergeant said, “Wheat or rye?” (00:12:40)
Veteran: So, then they showed up. Now, our folks showed up and they came off the USS Jaguar.
Oh, what a horrible time they had. I think the food was pretty good but they had some rough seas
and sometimes they’d get sick and they’d get bored and they had a lot of training. They didn’t
waste their time. They were refreshed all the survival skills and that kind of stuff. They could
have tested the weapons out too and fired off but I don’t think they did that. But they did
everything else that was important to make a soldier very strong in any environment to improve
what they are going to get into. So, they arrived and we received them and then for the first time,
we moved out…We moved away and across the river to the area that we had cleared off and we
set up—so, when we had the 1st battalion area, the…What was it? The…It slipped my mind.
Interviewer: Of your unit? Or someone else’s?
�7
Veteran: Ours. Our unit.
Interviewer: 8th! 8th Cavalry.
Veteran: Yeah, yeah. My mind is messed up. 1st battalion, 8th Cav for our 1st Cav Division so 1st
Cav battalion set up their area and there is headquarters A, B, C, and D. And so, we set up camp
and while we were there, we had already gotten some training too on you got to watch out for
certain kinds of snakes. And the coral snakes—if you get bitten, they’re two step. You get bit and
two steps later, you’re dead. But also, snakes will come in pairs. I didn’t know that. And so, we
were whacking away, getting things reasonably level so we could get our little pup tents in and I
came across one coral snake and whacked that one. (00:14:39)
Veteran: And so, the guys around me are with me and they got the second one. So, we were
pretty certain that that was good and we kept being very careful about that. And I am grateful to
say that nobody got a bite. But we did get all the men down and we got ourselves down. And
everybody in the companies were in pup tents. Two men to a pup tent. And we took care after
each other. We set up one of our GP medium tents, general purpose tents, and each company had
a dining facility so we’d go through that, rain or shine, we’d go through there and eat out of our
little tin plates. And then, the division started getting some equipment where we could put some
of these general purpose medium tents and fit a whole platoon of 30 men in one. And then you
had bunks, so that means you didn’t have your own shelter above you but you were off the
ground. You weren’t on the nasty old ground where whatever could—a centipede could crawl in
your ear or something like that. And they had that and these little inch worms would get in your
ears too. Yeah, that was kind of fun. But anyway, so that aligned them. My company commander
had a different idea. Everyone in our rifle company was a non-commissioned officer before they
became an officer. So, what we did: the men got the GP medium tents and the officers slept in
�8
the two man tents. And so, we got that squared away and then we took one of those and made an
orderly room for administration and operations and whatever else. (00:16:27)
Veteran: And then finally, we got another sizeable tent and we put all the lieutenants in that one.
But the company commander and me, we still had our pup tent. We were in the pup tent
business. So, the men got together and they got a truck and they drove to Pleiku, which was…I
mean, it was almost a day’s drive. And they got some mahogany and they came back and a
couple of these guys, we had used them in B company anyway, to build the best mess hall in that
part of the world: Fort Benning Harmony Church. So, they built us a house. We had a house off
the ground. And we had that. We also had a cot and we had electricity. And so, I would get up in
the morning and I was the commander’s servant. So, I took care of him and so nobody else
would brown those and none of there business. So, I took care of him. And that was my job: to
take care of him. And so, he was just Mr. Wonderful with the troops. And he was embarrassed
that I was cooking for him. But anyway, you can’t do much to kill C-rations. Anyway, so that’s
what he had. When he was in the field, he cooked his own stuff but when he was there, I cooked
something right there for him. And then he’d go to the mess hall and have the big meal. So, that
was kind of neat: a mahogany house. Amazing. And we have pictures of that and nobody else—
none of the other commanders got anything. They got a GP medium portable whatever.
(00:18:10)
Veteran: Even the battalion commander. Our two guys helped build an officer’s club. And some
once—some years after I left, the termites ate the whole thing so that was kind of…They were
kind of working on it when I left in August of ’66. Okay, so we got settled in and got our routine
around and got our security in. We performed some of the security around the division so we had
a sector that we had and other battalions had part of it and so forth. Just line troops would take
�9
care of that because they knew how to spot. They’d patrol the front of the area and such like that.
We put out the word, although we were told differently by headquarters in Washington D.C., but
we put out the word nobody moves at night. Nobody moves at night. Anybody that moves at
night, they’ll get shot. So, that was good. That kept us safe. And only the people that worked for
us in the daytime would show up at night. And so, that helped us segregate that stuff. And one of
the things that I introduced or had worked on with my NCOs—it wasn’t my idea but the NCO
says, “Why don’t we put a trap out there for these guys?” “Good. Tell me what’s on your mind.”
So, what we did: we took bamboo shoots and we cut them in half and they showed me at night
how you put those down, even in the dark night, and it looked like a highway. Now they said,
“Now, put that aside. Now, when it gets dark tonight, go in front of our machine gun positions
and see what you see.” And sure enough, they had put a trail. Our—the guys that worked with us
in the day had put a trail down to our automatic weapons. So, what we did when, as soon as the
sun set and it was dark, we’d move them all over. (00:20:11)
Veteran: And we put an ambush team at each end on those sites. We captured these rascals. The
fact is, they would go out with just their bayonets. Our guys would go out with a bayonet and
we’d capture—because you didn’t have all that other stuff that could bang around. And these
small units would come up with something to either slit the throats of us who were on duty or…I
don’t know. We didn’t have much trouble with bombs or hand grenades but we could have. So,
we’d capture them or they’d smell us out there and they’d hit the wood. Pretty soon our sector—
we didn’t get any of that anymore. And then later on, they’d shoot. They’d start shooting at us
and so we’d get—same guys would go out and sneak up on them and take the weapon away from
them. And they said—after a while, they just left us alone. They quit shooting at us. I don’t
know. They just…They got tired of it. Also, we put trip wires everywhere. I mean, we would
�10
take them down as the sun was coming up. We’d take them down; we’d move them around. But
then we’d put them out at night. And one of my platoon sergeants, an E-7, went out there and
this is what privates do, private first class maybe—rarely a corporal. But here is this master
sergeant, an E-7, and he…Well, he is…Yeah, an E-7. And he was setting up one of the night
flares and he caught himself on fire. And he burned the front of himself. And so, around where I
was with the company commander, we get a new company commander in and he was a desk
jockey in the brigade in the midst of fair weather. And he didn’t know what to do. (00:22:06)
Veteran: And I went berserk. So, I left. I got in the jeep with the driver and he drove me down to
the MASH. We had a MASH with surgeons in it. And they were having a meeting and here I
was, a first lieutenant, and I had all my junk on and the driver had all of his junk on. And you
know, it’s our weapon, hand grenades, and whatever else, and flares, and we interrupted their
meeting and they were upset with that. So, I referred to them as to their ancestry in a loud voice.
And they didn’t like that either. And I said, “And they need to get out of there now and get an
ambulance up there and get this E-7 out of the place because he has caught himself on fire. We
put the fire out but he’s burned badly.” And they just didn’t like me. I said, “Spell my—get the
name right and get in the jeep and we are leaving now. Otherwise, we are going to take you
down.” And they didn’t like either one of us. So, we did; they got him back. Got him back and
evaced him to Guam. And he tried to tell folks that he was fighting something and that set this
thing off. So, we had to squash that. That was a bold lie. So anyway, that was kind of…Didn’t
know what to do with that. So anyway, just going back just about a month or two later—a month
or two earlier, whe I was in Fort Benning. When we got notified that we were going to be a
combat unit in Vietnam, and this guy showed up and we went out on maneuvers. One of the
maneuvers, we found out how apt and how shiny he was. He was going to train us on reaction
�11
drills. You get ambushed, you attack it and you lose less people than if you sit there and shoot it
out with them. You attack it and you get more enemy kills and fewer friendly kills. (00:24:08)
Veteran: So, he was going to train the troops. And I suspected that he was a problem. I am not
disrespectful to my officers but I like to know who they are so I was trying to identify this
gentleman. I will call him Wendell because that’s what we called him. That’s his first name. So,
I went—Wendell called me in the office and he said, “Alright, Talmadge, what I want you to do:
we are going to go out and I am going to train these guys and I am going to go to area 6D.” I
knew exactly where that was, where the Rangers trained out in the jungly woods of Fort
Benning. Very rough, very overgrown. “And you pick any 6 guys.” I said, “Sir, any 6 guys?” he
said, “Yes, you got that right, lieutenant. You heard me. Just go on; get going.” So, I got these 6
NCOs that helped me out with a lot of other things on inspections and they were Ranger trained.
And we went down to the Ranger department, sat with them and said, “What do you think?”
So…Okay, so they armed them with machine guns and also, I left them. I didn’t tell them I was
going to do this and there are some other things that I coordinated with them. I went over to the
9th cavalry squadron and I asked the lieutenant colonel if I can have one of his platoons. And
they come with helicopters and 30 killer infantry solider assault soldiers and all their ammunition
and all their stuff and whatever else they have. “Oh sure, absolutely.” Then, I went over to the
reconnaissance area of reconnaissance battalion of whatever company and I asked them if I could
have two bubbles. They said, “Absolutely. You can have those observation helicopters. When do
you want them?” I said—I told them I wanted them at O dark thirty on such and such a date and
they’d pick me up at the airfield and I’d appreciate that very much. (00:26:04)
Veteran: So, then I went to the company B baker, the guy that, the drunk who was still there.
And I said, “I need 40 bags of baking powder. In paper bags.” So, he said, “What for?” “I can’t
�12
tell you. It’s a classified mission.” So, he did that; he got those bagged up for me and I took my
bag of those baking powder for cooking and stuff and got in my helicopter and then we took off.
And then we called the military police to stop the copter because somebody had a low—one of
his tires were low and we were too slow. We missed that. So, we couldn’t get to that but we
knew exactly where they were coming. So, the 6 guys showed up and they dropped a tree right in
the middle of the dirt roads where they have to come in and there was other stuff over here to
block them so they couldn’t go forward, they couldn’t even turn around. And they had all these
troops, 150 troops, we were out there. So, and then, my guys hid in the woods. And I was hiding
back here and watching. And so, and the 9th was a radio call. And I was listening to my
commander on his radio so I could say something or he could say something to me. And so, so
once in a while, I’d have a radio check and find out where he was on the highway because I was
watching him and then when he made his turn, I was able to turn my radio off and alert my 6
NCOs we are coming in and he’s going to stop. And then, when he stopped and he disembarked,
I flew over and I bombed him with all of these—I made a couple of runs, about 3 runs, dropping
the paper sacks. All this white stuff was all over—it was everywhere and it got in everywhere
and he was…I could see him: his face was turning red. He was screaming, trying to get ahold of
me. I don’t have my radio on in daylight. I couldn’t hear a thing. I didn’t know what he was
doing and he’s making all this racket down there. I knew he was. I couldn’t hear anything but
you could look at him and tell he was screaming. (00:28:16)
Veteran: So anyway, I turned my radio on and I started making shhhkawwkawww. And so, he
came up on there and I said, “This is Warrior 5, over.” “This is Warrior 6. Stop your bombing
runs. I am trying to train these guys.” “I can’t hear you. Speak up.” “This is 6.” “This is 5, over.”
And I kept that up for a while and finally I heard him and so I pulled out. And so, he started just
�13
training. But everybody was—everybody looked funny with all that white stuff all over. And it’s
amazing he was so squeamish. He never said anything to me. He should have chewed me out,
raked me over the coals. Didn’t do it. Didn’t do it; didn’t touch me at all. So anyway, so they
went into the woods. They began to deploy and so one of the NCOs…There is three of them over
here on one side and three of them over here on the other side. One of them opened up their
machine gun and, all of a sudden, it was just like you see in those soccer games where all the 7
or 8 year-olds—everybody is on the ball. Everybody on the field is on the ball. 22 people are
running after that stupid ball. But a whole bunch of these guys went there. I don’t know what he
did. I have no idea what he said. It wasn’t organized. They should have been in a platoon
formation of some kind and moved as a unit. And they weren’t organized, they just went
everywhere. I should have gone back with my helicopter, with my bubble helicopters. But
anyway, so they went after that and as soon—and then there’s these other people started milling
around, going that way. So, then one of these guys opened up. All of a sudden, its oh, they were
going this way. I could watch them that—I could be up here and watch them for a while.
(00:30:06)
Veteran: And then, the NCOs on the ground were telling me what they were doing too. So,
finally I got rid of the bubbles and but anyway, so they had—they were split and this one opened
up and then they’d go over here and do something and then they’d go to this way over…Had that
fire unit and they were split up all over the place. By the time they got to this open field, and they
came on line and all my NCOs were up there and I was on the ground with them. And at this
point, they got on the firing line. Oh, they…If we had mortars, we could have killed them all. We
didn’t have mortars. But anyway, they were going through mortar runs and doing this. I don’t
know what they were doing. It doesn’t make any sense. But anyway, while they were doing that,
�14
here comes a platoon of the 9th Reconnaissance Squadron and they land with their helicopters
right there and they dismantle the platoon. And with the fighters in there, they are shooting at
them and all that. All of a sudden, they had to get organized and they returned the fire. But by
that time, there was nothing left. And the commander is screaming like a—he was like a turkey.
One of those turkeys that get out there and you could just see all of this stuff going underneath
the chin. I don’t know what happened. Anyway, so then we stopped. And then we regrouped and
those guys got in the birds and flew off and we got in and we finally left. Got in our vehicle. And
I don’t know what kind of a briefing they had after that. But the commander told them because
this guy, Captain Livingston, had been with us for a couple years. And he taught us how to react
to stuff. Well organized to ambushes, to anything. So anyway, we got alerted to go to Vietnam
and we had a short time to quietly do that. And then they—within two hours after, it was
announced who would be in the advanced party. All 4 of my platoon leaders came up to me and
begged me to get this guy Wendell relieved, because he is incompetent. (00:32:22)
Veteran: I said, “I will do my best. But I’ll promise you: it will be taken care of.” So, they got
on—we got on our boarders a couple days later and came to An Khê and you know that story.
They showed up in September. He gets out there with the security thing. The first thing he did
and he gets relieved. So, he wrote efficiency reports on all of us. Now, the battalion commander
and the exec and whatever else went through the operations officer—went through the
organization and relieved a bunch of our…some of our folks as well. My first sergeant stayed, I
stayed. I don’t know. My real good guys stayed. My real sharp, wide-awake—the guys that kept
the weapons clean all the time, even when they came back from our practice stuff that we did,
little encouragements out there and back again. And so then, when he was relieved, Captain Roy
Martin came from the operations officer position to take his place. And he is a non-
�15
commissioned officer. He formally served in…I know he served in Korea. He might have…I
think that’s it. But he also served for many years all over the world in airborne operations and
very thoroughly, thoroughly well-versed, well-respected, known by very senior people across the
Army. (00:34:04)
Veteran: So, he comes into our unit and he starts and that’s where the unit grew closely together.
We removed some folks. Beyond that, we got some folks in that broke our heart. I got a black
lieutenant in, I got a white lieutenant in. And when September, late September, early October, we
deployed for the Ia Drang Valley, took a lot of hits. We had 3 North Vietnamese divisions
fighting our one and our field artillery and everything else we could find. Just drove them back
into Cambodia and when the congressmen got off the helicopters, they wanted to know are we
firing into—outside the limits of Vietnam? South Vietnam? Into Cambodia or anywhere else.
“Oh no, sir, we wouldn’t be doing that.” So many of them had to say from the fire direction
center, “We got them on the run! We got them 20-15 clicks inside the—we got a barrage running
right after them and we are pushing them out.” So, we told the representatives to get on the
helicopters and get out of here. So, they left. Didn’t hear anything about that but that was
terrible. We had to do that otherwise they’d regroup the company; we took some heavy hits. And
one of our battalions was ambushed. I mean, all the leadership was taken out. It was Hal
Moore’sunit. And I can’t tell you what he did but I know what he didn’t do. That battalion was
the only battalion that was moving from Pleiku, going from point A to point B, and they had no
flank security, no forward units’ patrols and nothing in the rears. And he certainly didn’t have
artillery flanking him all the way in, left and right. That unit, when it was decimated, I had to
give up some of my lieutenants and my non-commissioned officers to completely restore that
�16
battalion. And I lost my black officer and later on, I will tell you about the white lieutenant. But I
lost my black officer. I wanted a black officer in my command. (00:36:25)
Veteran: I have a fetish for black people because of Mary Wilson, who raised me as a youngster.
I think I mentioned that earlier on and I loved Mary Wilson. And I didn’t even know she was a
woman of color. I mean today, I don’t care. Anyway, that’s what happened.
Interviewer: Alright. Okay. Let’s try to organize this stuff a little bit. The full division
comes out. And once, then, you get them organized and established, how long is it before
you actually start to kind of go out into the field for full operations?
Veteran: The Ia Drang Valley was our first operation where the division deployed.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And they went late September and into October, November, we were in the Ia Drang
Valley in constant contact with North Vietnamese. They had 3 divisions, later on I found out,
and we even found their headquarters. Their front headquarters. So, I kept that in mind for later.
And so, we were able to push them. We had some of the people here at this reunion were there
and some of our people who were wounded, some of them—they had—they set up triage for us.
When we brought back these guys, and the ones that were easy to fix, they got that taken care of
and the next ones were the ones that would live probably and then the last ones were…They
were lost. And sure enough, they got some of those saved. (00:38:02)
Veteran: And that was a miracle. But that was our first time and we didn’t take a lot of hits in
Bravo company, or even the 1st of the 8th Cav. We didn’t take a lot of hits at all and so we
brought most of our people back with us. But we had some and they were—we lost a couple.
They were killed in action but most any other—there were just some that were wounded severely
�17
and they are still around today. And so that was kind of a neat blessing. We really didn’t take
much of a—okay, so we came back from that and there was a guy in Bravo company; his name
is Rodriguez. And he was known in the 18th Airborne Corps as a chef. And here he is: an infantry
staff sergeant platoon leader. Very, very—the generals knew him; he was that kind of a cook.
And so, General Johnson was one of them. And so, we came back and we were licking our
wounds and such like that and we had a situation happen and I got a picture of this guy I’ll tell
you about. But anyway—so, Rodriguez cooked food for our battalion and I think we had a bunch
of visitors come in to help themselves because they wanted the fine food that he produces. But
we had a situation where when the guys came back, we weren’t very observant. I had a—this
tall, black gentleman I put in the 1st platoon. And I got an Italian; his name was Spino and he was
my number one man so he did everything. I taught him everything I know. So, when I was busy,
he went out and made the deliveries of food, ammunition, water, anything, into the field. They
asked for something, we’d try to get it. Maybe some sleeping bags or maybe some boots. And
that was one of the things we got into right after the Ia Drang Valley in December: our boots
were falling off us. They rotted right off our feet. (00:40:15)
Veteran: And so, we had to send out and make urgent calls to get not only the uniforms that were
jungle fatigues but also those cloth boots that the water would come in and go out. And—the
jungle boots. And so, those began to come in and, again, the enlisted got theirs’ first and then we
got ours second. And somebody stole all of mine so I didn’t—I was out of uniform for a long
time. So anyway, so that was happening. But one of the things that happened was when they
came in, yes, they cleaned their rifles right away and yes, they did this, that, and they got their
stuff in order and got themselves finally some food after they got all this stuff put away. But one
of the things some of them didn’t do: they didn’t take away their hand grenades. And so,
�18
everybody was tired. I don’t know what we were doing. We were busy trying to get organized
too and one guy laid down in his bunk and blew himself to pieces. Which is what—he was just
resting and two of his grenades—the trigger things were wrapped around his web gear and he
just slept there with it like this and he must have rolled over and one of them dropped and the
other dropped and they both exploded. And the one must have done this because the shrapnel
went like this. My first sergeant and myself—I don’t know where the company commander
was—but all the shrapnel went like that: tore up everything but it didn’t hit us. And it did that
pretty much around. A couple guys got wounded but we got them fixed up. So, we took care of
that. We—when they come back, we just strip them. And we…I guess we learned a lesson from
that. (00:42:03)
Veteran: So, that was our first time that we went out in hard combat. What Spino and I did, we
developed what you call the Aerial Red Ball Express. We didn’t ask anybody. Aerial Red Ball
Express. We didn’t ask anybody’s permission. We went to one of the lift…helicopter lift
battalions, air assault battalions, and we asked for two Huey helicopters. And what we wanted to
do, and they provided their gun support, we would fly over where Captain Roy Martin was with
the B company and we’d hover about 5000 feet above them and then we’d keep in radio contact
with everybody and then at some point when they could pin them down or the shooting kind of
died off, we would come down and we would drop off the ammunition and we’d drop off food
and water. And then, if something else, we’d have to—and gunships were here to support and
make sure that nobody bothered ourselves. And then so, we created that and then pretty soon a
battalion like that. So pretty soon, Bravo company was coming in and reload and we’d go out to
C company and we’d go out to A company; A, B, and C primarily. Delta company was our
mortar outfit so we used—they didn’t get out that much so they were—they still helped perform
�19
many things when we set up in a defense in the field. Because those mortars drove off the
enemy. Excellent. These guys were quick and they were excellent. Our spotters knew what they
were doing. We had Air Force, foreign observers, and our own. And we could really get after
them with mortars and also with our 105s and 155s artillery. Excellent. We also had a 175, that
one we could fire a long distance and that’s what would drive the enemy away from us in Ia
Drang Valley. (00:44:07)
Veteran: So, we had a couple of extra—a number of exercise—after the Ia Drang Valley, we had
some small exercises but along Highway 19, which comes—Pleiku comes over the Mang Yang
Pass, where those guys got ambushed when the French and the…when they were fighting
the…Viet Minh, whatever they call them. And all the way down to Da—no, Nha Trang, the port.
Anyway, so on the 17th of December, we deployed forward into Binh Dinh Province, which was
down here quite a distance. And there was a corps that kept ambushing all the—everything. And
they were killing a lot of our people. And that’s—all of our supplies were being absolutely
stopped. So, we were given a mission: our battalion was given the mission to get these folks and
drive them off. They go into a village and do bad things. They’re going to kill the men and do
bad things with the children and the women or run the children into the woods and lions—I
mean, tigers—would eat them. And that’s where I first found out—I didn’t know that. So
anyway, it was a village lined up like this and the island was here and we were on the other side
with a forward supply, whatever you want to call it, organization. So, I was involved with that.
And so, two of our rifle companies were in line, and one of them in reserve, and fighting these
people that they had pinned down. They got them stopped in the village. They already shot down
one of our helicopters where we couldn’t do anything with it. It was too close to the situation.
So, we sent in a medevac with gunship support. (00:46:05)
�20
Veteran: And some snipers shot through the canopy and blew the brains of the co-pilot all over
the interior of that aircraft, that helicopter, so he pulled out. And there was a major in charge of
the medevac unit with us forward and I begged him to go back in. He says, “I am not going to do
it, lieutenant.” I am not—I wouldn’t…I didn’t—I was angry. I was confused and…because I had
heard some of my folks had been wounded, maybe even killed. And in fact, there was guys I had
served with for two and a half years. Some of these guys had taught me how to be a man in the
infantry, how to do airborne things and be safe. So anyway, I went to the lift battalions again and
they gave me two helicopters—no, one helicopter for lift and I got two gunships so we made a
pass through that whole mess and I talked to Roy Martin on the ground, I had his frequency. I
could talk to the forward base and to him. So then, so it—the gunships when we came around
and I was able to take a moment to talk: “Yes, we can give you coverage. They’re here, there is a
lot of space here. We can put fires on them and we are confident that we will not disturb either of
your rifle companies on the front line.” “Good.” So, I had a pilot, co-pilot, crew chief and
myself, we got in this lift. No guns on it. In fact, as our weapons were—we just put them away
because you can’t be—you can’t do—we are going to load. It was a hot day so we only could
pick up 6 people at a time. There was 18 to pick up. So, we flew in and set down. My first
sergeant, Roy Pointer, came over this way with these guys. Every one of them was hot, was
dirty, and bloody. And they weren’t saying anything. Nobody was talking. (00:48:13)
Veteran: They didn’t say hi or…And so, we loaded the 6 on and we pulled out. As we were
loading them on, it seemed like somebody got in the back of the fuselage. You know, these
helicopters were—sound would carry. And somebody got there with a stick and was beating on
that fuselage, the tail assembly. I hollered at—I don’t know if top could hear me but the only
thing that I could see here was this: if I wanted to do something else, I had to move like that. I
�21
couldn’t hear anything either way and I couldn’t see anything either way. I could hear this but I
couldn’t see it or hear it. But I heard that. And I hollered at him, “Get that idiot out of here!” And
so, we pulled out and we dropped them off as quickly as we could. Swept out some of it and then
went back and got the next load. And we came back with the next 6: hot, bloody, sweating. And
that guy was still there and I said, “Top, shoot him. I don’t care who he is. Shoot him!” because
he kept beating that fuselage. And so, we pulled out a second time and unloaded, got whatever
out, and came back in the third time. And that idiot was back there again. I don’t even…I don’t
know, I can’t explain it. But we got the last 6 and the first sergeant says, “Get out of here and do
not come back.” And my last remarks to him was, “Shoot the bastard.” And I pulled out—we
pulled out—and we landed and got rid of them and they counted 27 holes in the helicopter. It
was a magnesium-built helicopter. Had one of those rounds been a tracer, it would have blown us
away. I mean, that’s the way it was. The point I am trying to make is when you live together and
work together, you don’t plan to die together but you do it together. Whatever it is, you do it
together. (00:50:11)
Veteran: One of the guys that was killed in that was—I had 7 dead men out of the 18. The other
11 are somewhere. One of them would have came from Detroit and I have his name upstairs. He
was a private first class. He was an excellent infantryman. Knew how to use all of the infantry
equipment for combat. And put him in a body bag, send him to the United States, and we can’t
find him. As of today, this is—that happened on the 18th of December, 1965. We first—that’s
when we first drew blood in a very sufficient, well-documented day; Ia Drang Valley we didn’t.
We had some but not that many.
Interviewer: Right.
�22
Veteran: And not 18 in the battalion and Bravo company. So, I come here today and one of our
folks has looked, and I have looked, and we can’t find him anywhere. Not so far. So, I can bring
that information to you tomorrow. And we don’t know where he is. So, we left that with a new
tightness. That was a terrible experience for us all. I remember going back to the battalion
headquarters when we got in a couple new skirmishes but we drove those bad guys out. We
decimated them significantly and we drove them out; went into the village and did what we did.
And then we flew in another bigger helicopter. Took the Huey out that had been shot down. And
we cleaned up that. And tried to…whatever you can. Anybody we captured, we always checked
for blood first. We’d give them water and food. And we are the only army that does that, even
under these new circumstances. So, that ended our operation to clean up Binh Dinh on the 18th of
December, 1965. (00:52:25)
Interviewer: Alright. And do you get a lull, for a while, in activity? Or is it right back out
toward the Cambodian border? Or what next?
Veteran: What we did, we had a…Usually some of these things that are going to take place—
what I am going to share with you. When we got back, one way of quieting us down was to put
us on peripheral duty and we had our sections back again. And we operated just as with the same
vigor as we did when we were learning how to do this stuff. And so, alright. So, we did that and
it was kind of funny but it’s not laughable. We get up the next morning and the next several
mornings and there’d be at least 2 or 3 of our infantry over on one of the other sectors with a
throat slit. No bombs, no shooting. Or over here. It didn’t happen to us. What happened was
when we brought them in, we gave them two beers. And they’d have their two beers, had a really
Sergeant Rodriguez meal, you know, it’s absolutely gourmet and I mean that. He could take a
pig and make a banquet out of it. Anyway, so he was really exceptional. And they’d sleep it off
�23
and then we would have a 5-mile run or something. Something diverse from everything without
all their junk and then put them on the line and they were awake in the morning. Nobody got to
them and they, after a while, they didn’t like us because we do bad things to them when they
come into our sector. So, they would get established. And then we’d get the division and the
corps level were working their next plan of whatever we would do. So, once in a while, they put
us on Highway 19 as security. So, we had division perimeter security, then you had highway
security. (00:54:26)
Veteran: And the same things would apply as far as staying awake and no alcohol in the—well,
any time you left the base camp, no alcohol whatsoever. Never. And so, that and then other times
we would go onto an area. We’d go back to the Bong Son, which is closer to the ocean, or go
back to the Ia Drang, next to Cambodia, doing some things and shoot them up. We had an
occasional holding action, but not very much. And so then…So, I was the XO up until March.
And we kept delivering things. And one of the things that was kind of interesting: my NCOs did
everything except call me by my first name. They didn’t cross over. They called me everything.
You know, they hit me in the butt but other than that…So, we’d get along just fine. And that’s
fine. You know, I let—I am doing this so I can relate more to people. When I have a tight
haircut, I look mean. But anyway, one of the things that they jokingly said to me, “Strawberry
shakes would be nice, lieutenant.” And so, that word got out. So, I kept landing and I kept
getting that saying. They’d be calling each other, “He’s coming! Tell him.” So anyway, I got that
all over the place. Well, about that time…And this is before that. Okay. So anyway, they had a
unit come in…the 4th infantry, I think it was. (00:56:24)
Interviewer: Mhmm. Yeah, they were at Pleiku, yeah.
�24
Veteran: Okay, they came in and they had some really neat supplies. They had tents with wooden
sides to them. And it had the tent and the wooden side and the screening and oh my goodness.
What did they also have? Hot and cold waders and you know that whatever, house boys? I don’t
know but I do know this. So, we found out about that and we provided some security and
encouragement to them. We shared our things that we were involved in about infantry tactics and
things that you don’t do. One of the things you don’t do: you don’t go to—you don’t go down
the path, you make a path because a path that has already been made is ambushed. It’s either
ambushed with weapons that’ll blow up and kill you. I have a mahogany cross bow that wide and
that long at the tail and when it went off it would have hit somebody in the sternum and killed
them. And the thing—the line or whatever that they use wore out and it didn’t do anything. So, I
got the souvenir; I took that home. So anyway, we went down to Nha Trang when the boats
come in and they had 4th Infantry Division on it. And we traded a few things. And so, we went in
to get some items that might help, that might be a morale builder. (00:58:04)
Veterans: And what it was—they had these boxes…they were dry. You had to put liquid in them
to make them come alive. Malted milk, dry, and you add water. So, we traded something and I
got a whole bunch of that stuff. Enough for the battalion, not just for Bravo company. And so,
we brought that in and Sergeant Rodriguez was busy, he was deployed doing something with our
troops out there and beyond there. And so, we got all this stuff put together and mixed it up,
followed the directions. Boy, it smelled just—it smelled like the real stuff. So, we got it frozen
and we tasted it. Tasted real too. So, we put it in marmite cans and those marmite cans are
bulletproof and, also, they hold cold or they hold heat. So, I had about…I don’t know how many,
but we loaded the Huey helicopter and it was just Spino, myself, the aviator, and the pilot and the
co-pilot, nobody—there wasn’t a crew chief. And so, we flew out there and the heat was so
�25
intense: 140 degrees or warmer. And we flew out there and by the time we came in and we were
going to deliver this load, we told them what it was and they were there to get it so we didn’t
have to—we didn’t want to put our—we didn’t want to touch the ground. So, we just wanted to
get here and they unload it. And they unloaded those things and they were leaking and all of it
was sticky, gooey, all over the floor of the helicopter. And all of these—the struts that were
underneath it were drooling. You know, you could see this long thing coming down when we
were lowering it to the company area and then when we pull out and then go to another area and
do the call ahead and then they were ready for it. Man, they didn’t care if it was hot. And so, we
delivered that and then we went out and delivered the rest. So anyway, that got quiet until they
got into the base camp and then they said, “Man, that—” it did this to our morale. That was just
unbelievable because they were hot and dry. And on patrols at night, we had a guy…we had
some guys that came back from malaria. And they apparently had done well and they got back
on duty. (01:00:36)
Veteran: And I—and so, I was told my buddy, my sidekick, was Corporal Spino. And so…we
tried to please them and find out…so, they came back with warming stories of what this did for
them and then one of our guys, one of our pick-ups we made, there wasn’t a medevac around but
we picked up one of our sergeants and brought him back and flew him to Nha Trang. He took a
bullet right here. And he was alive. So…
Interviewer: Alright, we are continuing our conversation with Roger Talmadge. Now, we
had followed your career in the first sessions, through your initial service in the Navy
Reserves, which included the Army, doing Army intelligence work. And eventually,
connecting with the 11th Division, which is Air Assault Division. Was that their official
title?
�26
Veteran: Air Assault, mhmm.
Interviewer: Yeah. Which became then the 1st Cavalry Division, Air Mobile, in 1965 and
was sent to Vietnam. And as we followed him kind of through that, through helping set up
the division’s base at An Khê and some of the operations he was involved in. By this time,
he has gone from enlisted to officer. Now, and so we kind of got to—around to the end of
1965, early ’66, in terms of your story. Now, before we kind of get into more specifics, you
were serving as the executive officer of your company, is that right? (01:02:26)
Veteran: Right. Of Bravo company.
Interviewer: Yeah. Okay, and so the job of an executive officer is a little bit different from
a company commander or a platoon leader. Can you explain a little bit the nature of that
job?
Veteran: You can say he is probably the executive or the administrator or the logistician. Also,
the morale officer. Anything like that that would keep the company functional. And of course, it
meets the needs of the commanding officer, the platoons, platoon leaders, the lieutenants. It
doesn’t matter. Whatever they need, you try to meet that. And it becomes very acute and very
pointed when you are in combat. And so, that’s why we created…I finally met this gentleman in
my battalion, a fellow called Spino, and he was a corporal at one point. Finally made that. And
so, we provided supplies as the battle was roaring. We’d really take a load and then come down
with the helicopters and dropped off supplies in the combat zone.
Interviewer: Right. Now when the unit is out in the field, where are you, normally?
Veteran: Back in home base.
�27
Interviewer: Okay. And then, your job there—are you communicating with the people in
the field to figure out where they are, what they need, and keep track of things?
Veteran: Yes. And then also, sometimes when the unit deployed, I would go to the forward
logistic base but still in the administrative support. And looking for opportunities—if anybody
got wounded, we’d try to figure out a way to get them out. And usually, they were picked up by
our medevac evac. That medical evacuation unit and that helicopter-borne unit. And they would
pull them out and bring them to some place that they can get immediate care and then hauled
back to the division headquarters, which had a Mobile Army Surgical Hospital, the MASH. And
it worked out very, very well. And so… (01:04:35)
Interviewer: Okay. So, it’s an essential part of keeping the company functioning. It’s not
necessarily as glamorous as leading people in assaults and so forth but it needs to be done.
Veteran: No, command of nothing.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: So—but you had to use a lot of creativity to keep the thing alive. Especially when we
brought in the strawberry milk shakes. You know, that was a morale thing. And even though it
turned out to be hot strawberry milk shake, the message got through. And that was key.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And that was very important.
Interviewer: Yeah. The men had told you they wanted their strawberry shakes and you
produced them.
�28
Veteran: So, you try to close those loops. And of course, we bring in mail and then those things
are important. You don’t want to—food and mail are two very important items.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, relating to morale and such issues, do you remember how you
spent Christmas, 1965?
Veteran: Yes, I do. I told you our first day of blood was on 18 December, 1965 and I was located
in a forward base and I operated out of that forward base to haul out those wounded personnel.
And so, right after that, 18, 19, 20, but anyway, right after that we moved to New Pleiku, which
is—you have Pleiku and New Pleiku was created because we put in a large air base there. We
could land a C-141, a large aircraft, that brought in either supplies or personnel. (01:06:17)
Veteran: And so, they’d land at that field. It was run by the Air Force. And it was also—they
didn’t realize they were supplying us with our generators. Because every time they had a raid
and mortar attacks, the air men go running: they go running for the shelters and we go running
for the generators. We had no light. We didn’t have a light system at all. We had no vehicles.
And on occasion, we would find a jeep nobody was using so we’d repaint it and we had a jeep.
And when my jeep was—Spino was driving the jeep one day and he drove off the road. He
missed something so he avoided a problem and it destroyed the jeep. And so, we were on foot.
And these were the same military policemen that came to my B company mess hall for donuts at
12 or 1 o’clock in the morning when on duty. So, they drove up one day and the first sergeant
was there and I got a call on my radio, because I was up forward. I was doing something and
then I’d come back to base camp. And so, he called me and he said, “Somebody brought a jeep
here. Said some logistics supply or whatever organization.” I said, “Repaint the front and rear
bumpers.” And that’s what we did. I had a new jeep. And the military policemen brought it back.
They said, “Thanks for the donuts. Here is a little donation.” So, they disappeared. And then later
�29
on, the first sergeant called me and we had an executive officer that was really a pain on things.
And one time I came back and he was painting all the rocks white like he did at Fort Bragg.
Interviewer: Okay. Was this the executive officer of the battalion? As opposed to—
(01:08:13)
Veteran: The executive officer of the battalion, a major, would come down and—
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: --and give them all these orders. He didn’t have any authority either but he’d give them
the orders of do this and do that and spit shine and stuff. One day, the first sergeant called me.
He says, “You know, we got 10 or 15 dogs around here. They’re wild. They’re just running
around and they’d get food and so they tell their buddies and they show up. So, we’ve got about
10 or 15 of these things.” And the executive officer, the major, told him, “Well First Sergeant,
you get rid of them.” So, I said, “First Sergeant,” he says, “Yes, 5?” “Get ready on your next
load 4 for each canine creatures: load them in.” So, it took about 4 airlifts; we got rid of all of
them. I had to be creative with this because they’d drive him nuts because he was supposed to—
he was important. If I were to bring in somebody dead, you know, if we were bringing somebody
to grave registration, we needed him to be there to receive them. Otherwise, I would take them to
grave registration. But he would take them to grave registration. But I—we documented he got
them from me and then they got them from him. And so, the wounded died en route or whatever,
killed in action, were never left alone.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, I—we had started this bit with my asking about Christmas ’65.
So, nothing particularly special about it but you happened to just be at New Pleiku? Or…?
�30
Veteran: Oh, okay. So, we went to New Pleiku and I changed the subject. Well, when we went to
New Pleiku, we were rest and relaxation. And so, there was a unit that gave us security so we
didn’t even have to do that. Well, Sergeant Rodriguez showed up and he cooked a meal that
would—oh my goodness. And we had quite a few visitors. And also, General Johnson, I think
his name…General Johnson showed up and when the word got out to Rodriguez that Johnson is
showing up, he quickly ran out of the back of the tent where he was cooking a big turkey and a
bunch of other things and he had some help, so he wasn’t alone. When he put his regular uniform
on, he was a platoon sergeant. He was one of our platoon sergeants and went out in combat. So,
Johnson showed up and says, “Where’s Rodriguez?” and so, he came out of behind something.
“Here I am, sir.” “Are you in the tent cooking?” “Oh no, sir. No, I am a platoon sergeant.” And
so, when he left, he put his apron back on, went back in there and did the cooking. (01:10:46)
Veteran: But he—now, General Johnson had lunch with us and it was wonderful. And he
enjoyed it and he says, “I still have remembrance. Rodriguez is in here somewhere, doing
something, but I can’t catch him.” So, that was his comment he left. Then, the chaplain had a
service. We had 21 killed in recent times. Seven that one day and another 14 scattered over a
little bit of time during the month of December and the end of November, because we came out
of Ia Drang Valley with some kills. So, we had that. And in my orderly room, and this is kind of
vulgar, in my orderly room I had a Christmas tree. And I had beer cans hanging on it and
condominiums—
Interviewer: Condoms.
Veteran: Condoms. A whole bunch of trash like that. And he was going to report me to the
executive officer and court martial me for being sacrilege. I said, “Chaplain, let me tell you
something: that’s today. By spring, this is going to be a beautiful tree because we brought
�31
freedom to these people. And it’s going to be wonderful and all this other stuff. You’ll even see
it: it’ll go away.” “Really?” So, what did he do? Here he is honoring these 21 souls that have
passed, that have given their lives, have given it everything, they were good soldiers. We loved
every all of them. From all the companies. (01:12:14)
Veteran: And so, he said, “Let me tell you what Vietnam, South Vietnam, looks like today and
what it will look like in the future because of your sacrifice.” And so, he kicked off and he had
Bible references and all that other stuff that I didn’t have. I just, you know, we were just running
that way because we were mad at everything. We really were upset. Our hearts were broken.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, the mention of the decorations of the tree and so forth reminds
me of another question that I wanted to bring in and that is that 1st cavalry division, when
it set up its base at An Khê, had some unusual accoutrements I believe. And one of them
was there was a brothel right outside the gate that the division itself managed. Do you
recall that? Did that kind of thing…Did that keep problems under control or did it
contribute to problems? Or…?
Veteran: What it did: one of our soldiers painted that big sign and it said ‘fun, travel, and
adventure.’ That’s how he signed them. And I said, “Good. There are several ways you could
interpret that.” So, it was a beautiful sign and the generals left it alone. But all of us knew. We
came in, that was one of our high spots. We came—we left from that and went and came back to
it. A little bit of a rebel in each of our troopers.
Interviewer: Okay. But on the whole, were morale and discipline pretty good at that point?
Veteran: Our battalion…we were busy. We were almost in the field all the time. We came back,
cleaned up, shaved up, you know, got our act together, picked up new guys. And when I got a
�32
lieutenant, I assigned him to one of our platoon sergeants. And the platoon sergeant was in
charge for at least a week or two. And the lieutenant did everything the sergeant told him;
otherwise I’d have him for lunch. And he wouldn’t like it. And that kept them alive. So, very,
very well. (01:14:19)
Veteran: When they came back, they know that after they cleaned their weapon and got their
uniform and the other accoutrements that they carried cleaned up, they’d get a nice meal.
Rodriguez would show up and cook them a wonderful feast. And they got beer and that was the
end of that. And then, they’d get ready for the next assignment, either perimeter duty or another
assignment out on the highway, which is also a defense or assault into some area that needed
restoration and feed ‘em… introduced to that area. So, no. We got along well with each other.
We had no fragging. None of this stuff. No crossing over. At least, in Bravo Company
particularly but other companies too. We had no fragging whatsoever. And one of my soldiers
got in trouble. He rebelled against something and I think I told you that we brought him to the
tent and we had him dig a 6 by 6 and put a quarter in it and I went and inspected the quarter and
said, “Now, bury it.” And he finally wised up. He was a really fine, non-commissioned officer.
But we took care of them while we were back at Benning and we kept doing that. And we kept
doing that. And we didn’t take—we didn’t let little problems…We didn’t ignore them. Because
it—and we didn’t baby them either. So, that was important. So, we left—we pulled out of New
Pleiku in January and went back to the field and got engaged in some forward looking, or
forward, areas. One of the areas that we went into a couple times was in Bong Son, which is up
along the sea coast there. (01:16:10)
Veteran: And there was a…Every time we went in there, we had to start afresh because the bad
guys were in there and they’d leave after we ran them off and then they’d come back and do bad
�33
things. And so, we did that a number of times. And then also, down Highway 19, had…just south
of Binh Dinh, where 18 December battle took place, we landed at Phuket and that was a forward
base. And while I was there, some of our wounded guys were in different places. I did not go to
the field but they ended up in that hospital in that town I keep forgetting on the coast.
Interviewer: You have Quy Nhon and Nha Trang.
Veteran: Quy Nhon.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: They had an evacuation hospital there. Excellent surgery unit and all that stuff. So,
they’d end up in there and that’s where the one guy that was shot close to his heart…I’d go visit
him and the doctors went crazy because Spino and I had all this—we had our automatic weapons
and hand grenades and we are walking in, seeing this sergeant, and I am cooing over him. And—
but I said, “My goodness, he fell asleep. And I am not going to say anything. That’s a court
martial offense. You came back. You were deathly ill when you left us and you came back and
you were exhausted.” And what happened was the enemy patrol came right through where they
put their foxholes on a trail. You never do that. Well they did and the AK was pointed right at
him and he went like this and it missed his heart by that much. And that’s what saved his life.
And of course, they took care of him, the bad guy, and ran him off. But no, we didn’t—just
cooed over him, loved on him, and left. And of course, there was captains that outweighed me
and so I—you know, we got in our jeep and took off. But we…But that was—that’s what we did.
But also went back to Phuket. (01:18:14)
Veteran: We ran out of jungle fatigues. We’d rip them up, mess them up, and all that stuff and
our leather boots were falling off. So, I gave Spino one private first class and I said, “You take
�34
him and I want you to go down to the 80, whatever, 5th evac and get in their supply room where
they have all the stuff that soldiers have come in and they leave their equipment because we need
equipment. And just tell them that you were directed to come here and clean the place up and
help the nurses out by doing so.” So, they did and the nurses were so pleased and patted them on
the back for being so helpful. And man, we got uniforms for a lot of the guys that didn’t have
any in our battalion. And we also picked up some pouches that we needed and web gear and
odds and ends. But that thing was a mess, that supply point. It was just terrible, so we cleaned it
all up and it ended up where we could issue it immediately. Also, that’s when I went blind. I lost
vision. It was fog over my eyes. And so, I went down to the same evacuation hospital in Qui
Nhon and the doctor measured each of my corneas and then prescribed a cream that I think, as I
mentioned before, that in a couple weeks that went away and that was just fine. So, I got back to
duty and I didn’t get stuck with anything.
Interviewer: Okay. So, did you have to stay in the hospital for those two weeks? Or you
just got the cream and went back to—
Veteran: No, I was out in the field as soon as that started clearing up. It kept going and got
clearer and it got really well. So then, right after that, sometime after that, I was moved from
Bravo company into the battalion headquarters and became the intelligence officer for the
battalion. Now, the intelligence officer provided information on the order of battle, composition
of not only your forces but possibly the enemy, if you could capture that information. Well, you
had two types of enemy. You had the regulars that had formations and then you had the
irregulars that showed up everywhere. They’d ambush you anywhere, at any time. (01:20:34)
Veteran: Indiscrete at all, at best. And so, I started with that and I got—I had a conference with a
commanding officer so the executive officer didn’t get me. I said, “I am not going to be the bond
�35
control. I am not going to sell bonds, war bonds, or anything else bonds, or run the officers’ club.
I am going to do my job. And this is my primary job. I am not going to carry the map for the
lieutenant colonel either.” So, they put the word out and he was fine with all of that. Fact is, he
enjoyed the intelligence service kinds of stuff and he was a close—he kept watching me because
I was the only direct commissioned mustang in the outfit. I was a misfit. And so, without his
support, I would have been lost. But he was our first battlefield commander. And so, he took
good care of me and so I came up to the staff and all the documents that were messed up were
taken care of so he wouldn’t get in trouble. Then, 2 E-6 sergeants—I got with them and they
were sharp guys and I said, “You want to try something new?” Because I also was familiar with
the Soviet…what they call ‘defense in depth.’ And what it is: they start out here and have some
defense and as you—the closer you get to the core gets intense. And it’s maximum when you get
to the perimeter of their headquarters, your unit or whatever was out there in their field location.
(01:22:06)
Veteran: So—and what we did, we reversed that and called it ‘surveillance in depth.’ And so, we
experimented with that. We had—and we also needed some way of generating random numbers.
Now remember, I didn’t have a college education but I knew somebody told me or whatever—
but I said, “Get me a math—one of these math books that has numbers in it.” And one—sure
enough, there was a place where you could pick a set of numbers and you just scramble them.
And it told you how to do it. And we started that and we laid out everything around us for about
10 or 15 kilometers and we started this way and went like this. And then we broke them out
according to the geographic stretch around it and we gave a unique number, alpha numeric
number, for each of these sites. And then we’d change it every 24 hours. And so, each one was
given a symbol and some symbols meant that the patrol would come out like this. And I got in a
�36
helicopter and I looked at the division base camp and they had these trails that went out a
kilometer and they came across here and they came back in like that and they were all over the
place. And that—by the time they went out, the enemy knew that they were coming so they’d
ambush them here. And they wondered why. “Gee, every time we go out, we get ambushed.” So,
what we did, we were in the same situation, but I’d fly them out and dump them in here and
they’d be listening close at night and then they’d slowly move in this way and they’d catch these
guys in some kind of a mode of ambush and we’d ambush them. They couldn’t understand that.
And then sometimes, some were marked where, indiscriminately, usually it was after dark. I’d
have two gunships go by at this area, this geographic area, and they’d just shoot it up. No—it
was a—we kept out, away from it. Or, I’d mortar this place and do something else over here.
(01:24:13)
Veteran: And usually when we had these listening posts at night and we’d shoot up something,
we’d catch folks come in and we’d capture them. And after—and the other thing that we did,
instead of, as you’ve heard in some of your presentations, you’d have half the men in rest and
half the men on security. We broke it in thirds. We’d have half—30% on security and 30% on
reconnaissance, and 30% sleeping. And they got more rest that way. And then after a while, I
had permission again from the same battalion commander, I raided all the rifle companies in
Delta company, which is our weapons company, and I had 5-man teams that’d go out 15 or 20
kilometers away from where we were. And again, this outer ring had its uniqueness too and it—
that would change. So, we couldn’t fire into it with anything unless that changed or somebody
moved laterally out of it somehow. And so, I went up to the G-2, which is the lieutenant colonel.
And he knew me because I was the first direct commission in the military intelligence service.
And so, they watched me very carefully and they—whatever we wanted because I could ask
�37
them specifically about stuff that none of the other guys that had that job that was an S-2 knew
about. And so, I had heat-seeking aircraft loaded with heat-seeking equipment. And so, at night
I’d put somebody out here or out here and so I’d—we’d run a line, knowing where the Ho Chi
Minh Trail basically is a bunch of trails, right off it, 15-1600 of them. And so, what you’re
looking for: any kind of heat mass. And if it got near to us, our guys would click and let us know
okay, they are passing. And they’d just sit there and do nothing. They never shot a round. And it
was 6 or 7 months that I was doing this. (01:26:24)
Veteran: But anyway, and then we’d wait until they got way down here where we had a
registration point and we’d hit it with a massive artillery and then we’d wait two hours, put the
birds back up. And if the heat mass was moving, we left it alone. If the heat mass was still
moving, we’d set up an ambush down here. And so, I didn’t lose any people that way. I don’t
know what they lost; I have no idea.
Interviewer: Now, 15 to 20 kilometers out is an awfully long way for an infantry battalion
to do business, isn’t it? And I don’t recall that as being—normally, we leave that kind of
thing up to long range reconnaissance patrols or special forces types or other things like
that. But you were just kind of improvising that with the battalion?
Veteran: Yeah. We cheated. Yeah, we had these aircraft that we purchased from Canada. They
were 2 engine aircraft that could loiter a long time. And—but they didn’t fly fast and out the tail
assembly, they had all these antennas. And we could talk to the world. and so, these guys here go
ploof and we get it immediately. Or get it into one of our major systems and it could go across
the division or some place else. And so, we always had it. And then when the plane was—had
been on station for a while, another one would come in and take over and this one would shut
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down and fly back to where we were and refuel. So, they always had close communication all
the time. But we didn’t let them talk.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Because you could pick them up but if they click-click or there was somebody, nobody
knew what that was. We did but they didn’t.
Interviewer: Right. So, you never had to go and extract some of these people? (01:28:09)
Veteran: Oh, yes. Oh, we’d extract them. We’d have some kind of a faint kind of a thing. We’d
fly in birds sometimes and do this and then fly out. And then, so we’d come again as if we are
going to land the second time with troops and the enemy would assault. When they did, we’d just
blow the landing zone away and pull back out. But sometimes we’d fly and we’d check the area
and we got no heat mass and so we’d come in and we had gunships to support them and we’d
load them up and pull them out. And picking up 5 guys is real simple.
Interviewer: Because one Huey could do that? What do you think? Would one Huey be
enough to pick up the 5?
Veteran: Usually. Worst case, worst scenario, hot weather with a high humidity, we could carry
6. That’s what the rescue was in December.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Yeah, it was very hot and also the humidity was up. So, we could use one Huey but we
brought the other one anyway. And so, they’d do this and then fly up. But the enemy thought oh
boy, he’s bringing more troops. We are not; we didn’t bring anything in. And so, after a while we
captured these guys and we couldn’t figure out what we were doing. We’d ask them…We’d try
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to get a sense of what’s going on with them and whatever little unit they had out there, trying to
ambush us. And they’d say, “You everywhere. We no find you.” That’s right because we just
raided the area and left it and, of course, we had people somewhere else. But they never could
find us. So, we documented that thing and it’s registered in the Department of Defense archives.
And its ‘surveillance in depth.’ And it stopped surprise attack of the 1st Cav Division
headquarters. And when you go the field and in May we went to the field and Operation…Gosh,
I forget the name it had. Crazy Horse. Crazy Horse and we landed in a valley. (01:30:17)
Veteran: And the first thing is I was screaming at him, “Companies! Get your patrols out.” So, B
company put their patrol out, Alpha company put their patrol out, and Charlie company was in
reserve. And whatever they were doing back was covered. And I was in the headquarters down
in this valley and up top side must have been elements of a regiment. And they were dug in.
They were dug in: they had a headquarters underground and tunneled and everything else. They
had already raided a couple areas over here and over here to our flanks and killed everybody. All
the Americans—the unit was lost. And we started taking fire. And so, what these two, Alpha
company and Bravo did, they assaulted up the hill and engaged them and actually destroyed their
communication system. And we lost some people there. I lost a lieutenant in that one. We got
one…one…what do you call it? We got a Medal of Honor out of that and a bunch of Silver Stars
and so forth. And the only thing that I was concerned about is we were setup in a trap. We should
never have gone in there. Why do you go—tactics tell you you don’t go in a valley. You go—
you take the upper level and move out from there. We didn’t do that and so what they did,
they—right after this thing started and it got quiet—they came in heavy. Our forces came in
heavy and pulled us out and then they bombed the place out of existence after we left. (01:32:05)
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Veteran: And so, Spino was up dropping stuff, food and ammunition and water and who knows
what to them. They didn’t know that I wasn’t on the helicopter. Well, he learned how to do it
well so I made sure he got a special Bronze Star for that. But now that—that was a mess. So, that
was a…one situation where it just…surveillance in depth paid off handsomely for us. And then
we—our battalion became corps reserve. We were placed in corps reserve and we are sitting
somewhere in the highlands. And the Navy had helo-ed in from the…it’s the helicopter borne
landing ship. And so, they put in a battalion-sized unit in the Bong Son and they were ambushed.
They were really surprised. And so, they called on us to come alongside of them. You know, we
trust our Marine buddies. We don’t say anything about them. What happened was, and as an
enlisted man, a former enlisted man, I was furious. I exploded on the officers. And that was at 2
in the morning. They all went and got up for breakfast. And they had their milk shakes and they
had their bacon and they had their eggs and all this stuff and then a couple hours later, they heloed in there in 140 degree temperature and they were throwing up. Now, they are brave soldiers
but somebody in command allowed them to make them immobile. They were ineffective. And
so, until they go ahold of themselves, we just secured the area and moved the enemy forward.
The enemy was wiped out by 500 Snake Eaters because our battalion was bad news when we
showed up. And but we were together and we were tight and our officers made sure that
we…After our two beers when we got back, nothing. And then you filled yourself up with water.
That was a big deal and food; whatever you could. We only ate one meal a day. That’s all we
had. (01:34:36)
Interviewer: Right. Now, did you get an R and R during that tour in Vietnam?
Veteran: I got an R and R for about a week and I took that in Thailand.
Interviewer: Okay.
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Veteran: And I had one of my buddies, one of my platoon sergeants, with me. Elrod was his
name. And he was a guy that was so obstinate for all the right reasons. When we inspected his
barracks, all the other barracks you walk in there and the floors are spit-shined, you know? You
see the glare in your face. His were nice and clean. He said, “I don’t want to waste time cleaning
this stuff when my troops—they need to be well trained and refreshed to do their primary job,
and that’s become a fighter.”
Interviewer: Okay. Now, was that back in the states when that was going on?
Veteran: That was back in the states and then we deployed to Vietnam together. He was still in a
rifle company. He was one of the ones that came to me and said, “Get rid of the commander.”
And so, he and I went there and enjoyed quite a…Well you know, I ate food I never ate before. I
don’t know what was in there but it was all good. And then we left; we came back home. And it
was kind of funny: in the Navy I flew in C-54s. And what it was was a passenger/logistics
aircraft with 4 engines. And turbo prop. And this one had a problem on the starboard side. One
of the engines just wouldn’t start. So, what they did, they took a—we were—we had to stand
away from the craft and the pilot and the co-pilot…I don’t know. They cranked up the engines
just absolutely and then they, what I call pop the clutch, and they let go of the brakes and went
roaring down the field and at some time they put the magneto over on that starboard engine and
the thing just began and it kicked in. Then, they came back with everything turned off except that
one engine and then we loaded on and they flew us back. But that plane—I don’t know how long
they flew it that way. It was the admiral’s personal plane. It had beautiful wood in it and all that
stuff. A little desk. But he let us use that to go on R and R. (01:36:54)
Interviewer: Alright. And so, when do you leave Vietnam?
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Veteran: Oh, I just…one other thing happened.
Interviewer: Oh, I am not—I am just using this for reference so answer that question and
then we go back.
Veteran: To answer the question, I left in August, ’66.
Interviewer: Okay. So, kind of go back now to where you were.
Veteran: Okay. Now, what I want to remember is the time my company commander, Roy
Martin, went on R and R. And he was a fighter. He said, “If I am not in a war, I am going to get
out of the service. I am just not going to do it. I did World War 2 and Korea. I have always been
in the military in the front line.” He was an Airborne Ranger and all this stuff. He did 1300
parachute jumps. In World War 2, the parachutes were like this. And he was testing—that was
the T-7. The T-10 would come in like this and you could do something like this and it would go
this way. If you dumped the air out that way, it would go that way. And so, you can maneuver
with that thing and get away from stuff. And that’s what saved my life because I almost crashed
into an ambulance, a steel ambulance, on one of my jumps. But anyway, so the battalion
commander got ahold of me and the exec officer and he marched Roy Martin out to the little
airstrip where the helicopter came in and he stood him to attention and he had me take away all
of his web gear, everything, except his wallet and whatever. And so, he gave him a direct order
to board the helicopter, get out of there, and I will see you next week. So, he left. (01:38:26)
Veteran: Soon as he left, and before he cleared the area, I called the rifle company. I said, “This
is left tackle 6. A former left tackle 6 is now airborne out of the area. I am in charge. Out.” So, I
took his signal, I took his command. So, one of the things I commanded was when the 25th
infantry division came in, they were to go to the 3rd brigade into the New Pleiku area and they
�43
were on kind of a hill. So, they had a commanding view. And General Westmoreland came in
and fired the first artillery round. We—our rifle company provided their security. So, we ran
these patrols like a…we ran patrols right. We did some things but we were still kind of…I
couldn’t get the G-2 involved yet. But we still did some things to make sure that this village
didn’t get involved with us. So, we kept them safe. And nobody shot at us and we were fine.
Problem was I was a first lieutenant still and I go to the staff meeting and Colonel Stautner—oh,
of course he had been around for a long time and his battalion commanders would meet and his
company commanders would meet for a briefing that evening about the enemy situation,
weather, terrain, anything. And so, then they’d ask me—say, “Okay now, our guest who is
providing our defense, would also like to have some room for a briefing.” So, I had briefing. I’d
brief them on how we are deployed and what we are ready for and our experience. And we
had—we were trained by the 173rd Airborne Brigade about what you don’t do. (01:40:19)
Veteran: So, I am going to give you some lessons about that. And especially these…I know West
Point captains, they hear that they just—they didn’t know who I was. They didn’t know if I was
West Point or Shang Soo, whatever. But they knew I was a first lieutenant and here I am talking
to them that way. And I said, “One of the things you need to learn right off is that you’ve got
your inside perimeter and you have your privates and corporals and all that pretty much out there
and the sergeants are in charge of their fire teams and squads and so forth. Now, they are to keep
their weapons unloaded. Ammunition handy but unloaded. And then, if we get overrun, when
one of our privates or sergeants come running through and jumps in one of your foxholes, he will
tell you when to load.” And one captain stood up and said, “Lieutenant Talmadge, I heard what
you said but I am not going to do that.” And I said, “Sir, I’ll shoot your ass.” And I walked out.
So every—from that day on, Stautner referred to me, “And tonight we will be briefed by Little
�44
Caesar.” And I could say anything after that because he was a danger to us. I’d have had him
relieved. We had no choice. And then, in my clever, I tried to—it was New Year’s. So, what do
you do on New Year’s? You have fireworks. So, we had fireworks. I said, “Okay. Mortar
platoon; fire mission. Over.” And they went straight up, as far as they’d go, and they’d go poof.
Well, the wind caught it and it flew into the village and caught part of it on fire. So, I thought:
well, there goes my commission. (01:42:06)
Veteran: It was out the window. And my guys—our platoons went down there and put it out and
the lieutenant, the second lieutenant, I remember he came in. he chewed me out. He just—he
said, “That was irresponsible. What’s wrong with you? You lose your mind?” And he just ripped
me up. But anyway, I said, “Okay, thank you. Forgive me. I am sorry.” But anyway, everything
was safe. But everyone else was laughing. And then, one of the things: foxholes are for people.
Interviewer: Yes.
Veteran: That’s a rule. And so, I got in one foxhole—I was dead dog tired—and I just needed 15
minutes. I took my poncho, put it over me. All of a sudden, it started raining and I discovered
one of those idiots is pissing in the foxhole. And I screamed at him; he took off. I don’t know
who it was but I had to go wash that thing out. I didn’t get a direct hit but still, it’s the idea. That
was a lesson. The foxholes have got to be available for use, not for using it for a urinal or worse.
You know, you take care of that out somewhere else. So, it was a man—I don’t know if it was
one of the new guys and he didn’t understand. But there’s an orientation we all have to go
through. So, that was kind of a remembering thing.
Interviewer: Okay. Were there other larger operations you were involved in, or your unit
was involved in, once you were doing intelligence work?
�45
Veteran: Right. When I was…I got promoted to captain in March, whatever it was. And so after
Bong Son and this other thing with the Marines coming into that area, so we were there several
times, but we were somewhere in the forward base. And so, I went forward and I was walking
with my old rifle company. We were on patrol. And they made sure they had—I had machine
gunners. This black guy I told you about, he was over on my flank. He had a machine gun and
nobody was going to touch his lieutenant to be made captain and working at the headquarters.
And so, they watched me like a hawk. (01:44:21)
Veteran: And the brigade commander found out that I was out on the front line. “What is a
staff—” He just exploded. He couldn’t get me; I was out there. What are they going to do? So, I
stayed out there and then we came up to an area where some guy was out in the farm field and he
was harvesting corn or I don’t know what it was. We told him…and so he got down and we had
him come to us. And so, one of our guys—the G-2 from the division got me a South Vietnamese
soldier who was fluent in 5 different languages: English, French, and dialects of Vietnamese.
And we are in with Montagnards and some other things had happened and we got involved in.
So, we talked to the guy and we told him: “This is a peaceful mission, we want to bring freedom
and quietness to your village.” And he bought into that. So, when we came in, he got the chief
with us and the chief said, “Okay, tonight I will show you where the ambush sites have been set
up.” So, we captured that whole outfit without firing anything. Nobody got hurt. So, that was
one. One of the things that I used to do is I’d go in with the hamlet chief. It was a great honor for
them for me to come to them. And my Vietnamese was terrible. But anyway, I took this guy with
me and so I’d drink their rice wine and after a while, I wasn’t worth anything. So, I’d make sure
a helicopter was out there for me. I’d get up above 5000 feet, it’d take me about a half an hour
and I could be completely sober. (01:46:05)
�46
Veteran: So, a couple things happened with that. I remember one time we were in the field and I
was just doing my normal job: to make sure our perimeter was safe and that our troops had
deployed out to do something but we still had our patrols. And even the hamlets used to give us
personnel to lead our patrols, and that is dangerous. But these guys have fought in the ‘50s
against the Viet Minh and so, “We will keep you safe.” And they did. They’d do this and
“Everybody get down.” And they’d bring back a Claymore mine that had been rigged to go off
and explode its 1000 BBs at us. And that’s where I got—in one of those, I got my mahogany
cross bow. And that would have killed us. The other thing that they—if you tripped a little thing
on the ground, this ball, this mud ball full of bamboo sticks dipped in feces—human feces—
would come down the trail and tear you up. And the feces would get—not only were you torn up
but you had that infection in your system and it could kill you. So, they’d go in and bring that all
back as souvenirs. So, we did that for a while. And then in one place, we knew the enemy was
around us. That’s when I put out folks in the heat system. We knew they were around us. It was a
fresh unit and they had a lot of supplies and a full complement. And so, one of the hamlet chiefs
sent a runner to where I was because I had the medical folks with me too. And the hamlet chief’s
wife has got a terrible cough. I am not a doctor; I don’t know what that means. So, I got ahold of
my chief medic. He is really a super guy. I mean, he is a real good meatball surgeon. (01:48:08)
Veteran: And so, he went out and he was gone a long time. So, we—I was there in the
morning—so we—I was in the chow line, waiting to get fed and this—he comes back, this
sergeant first class and he talks about my ancestors loud. I mean loud and aggressive, calling me
all these horrible names. And I said, “What’s wrong, sergeant? What’s got you?” He said, “The
baby was breech and I had to turn it around and it was born fine. But you should have known
better, captain.” I didn’t know better. I don’t know. So anyway, that was a crazy thing. Another
�47
thing was we went to another chief’s…We drove there and I had my medical team with me. And
so, the chief met us there and he knew we were coming. They knew everything. And so, we
came in and we had our, you know, our greetings to each other. And my guy talking about how
are things going, enemy activity? Yes, there is but you are safe. There is nothing around right
now that will…that will get to you. And that’s fine. And we are glad you are here and thank you
for helping us. Some of them had leprosy and all’s we could give them some cream to take the
pain away. But we couldn’t help them. They’d just eventually die. So, we’d get there one night
and they died so we gave them room so they could have their funeral. We didn’t disturb
anything. And so anyway, I got back to where I—where the tents are, where our mess hall was—
and the runner from that same village came running in and he told my interpreter, he said, “The
hamlet chief just wanted you to know, captain, that the ambush that was set up to kill you they
were sitting on, 3 huts down from where you met.” They were sitting on them. Took their
weapons away and were sitting on them. (01:50:07)
Veteran: Isn’t that crazy? So, that was kind of nice. But we really got along with the
Montagnards. We had a South Vietnamese full colonel who was an artillery officer. I don’t know
how we got ahold of him but he was…he came to visit. And there was a full row company. Are
you familiar with them? It’s a bunch of renegades. It’s a bunch of Vietnamese, Cambodians,
Laos, whatever. Rebels. And they were fighting for freedom for South Vietnam. So, if they’d see
us and we went by them and they set up an ambush, they would just do this. We never saw them.
Then they’d just shush. And we’d walk right by them. And it might be 150 of them in that area
and they’d just sit there and watch us and we’d go through. Anyway, they had several groups and
they’d set up so they couldn’t be wiped out all at once. And they had good security. This guy
�48
ordered a fire mission against them. And so, what we did: we put them on a helicopter and we
arrested him.
Interviewer: So, which guy…the Vietnamese colonel?
Veteran: The South Vietnamese colonel.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And we arrested him and dined him and wined him and showed up him up and then we
told our headquarters who was out there. And what happened was they put up their full row flag,
they were so bold. And that’s what got us attacked. Otherwise, he didn’t know. So, we sent a
note to him. We didn’t go there ourselves but we stayed away from him. And that was an
unusual encounter.
Interviewer: What impression did you have of the South Vietnamese civilians, to the extent
that you saw them? Ethnic Vietnamese as opposed to the Montagnards or…
Veteran: We had…The villages that we were in when we got—went in to free a village—those
are hamlets too—but many of them were not…Montagnards were mountain people, whereas the
villagers were in a valley and they were farmers mostly. I don’t know anything else they raised
except they had rice paddies and some of them really good. My second tour to Vietnam, we fixed
those up in a really unique way but these guys were working hard and they didn’t cause us any
trouble. Maybe some were Viet Cong; we didn’t know it. But if they come around at night, we
took care of it. (01:52:43)
Interviewer: Right.
�49
Veteran: So, they didn’t get us. And we generally were well received, just like the one where he
was quiet in the field and they gave us hot corn. We were hungry, we were hot, and we needed
water and this hot, really hot, fresh corn was…oh, what a treat that was. I don’t know if we had
gotten poisoned or not. we were going to go and great, great shape. That—none of us got sick
with that stuff. They cooked it. Whatever was in it was dead so it didn’t bother us. So, those were
excellent. But the Montagnards really went out of their way and they’d give us intelligence
briefings and everything. These guys would never tell us anything except for that one after we
left. They knew that that ambush site was going to kill me. They already knew before anything I
did. I’d sneeze and down the road they would say in Vietnamese “gesundheit” or something
because they knew what we were doing. But the Montagnards were very sensitive about us being
in their area. But very helpful.
Interviewer: Alright. Other aspects of the latter part of that first Vietnam tour that kind of
stand out for you? Or do you think you have run through most of them now, or…?
(01:54:05)
Veteran: I think I ran about—I think I hit…There’s one. We came into a town and you come
down 19 and you go off to one side. I forget where it was. It’s a mountainous area and it’s called
Ban Me Thuot,and that’s a resort. It was in the ‘50s. Actually, all of Vietnam was the pearl of the
Orient. It had some beautiful mansions, wonderful service, and gracious people. And it was
just…with that French flavor to it. And then the French went in there and shot the place up. And
the fact is, I met a French attaché driver in—when I was in Oberammergau. I could dance in
French dance steps and all the guys drool and here’s this punk with this beautiful woman, French
woman, she was airborne medic. And if you messed with her, she’d break your arm. She didn’t
mess with me and those guys were drooling. But anyway, so we went to Ban Me Thuot, and the
�50
idea was when you come in, you leave your weapons some place so the North Vietnamese who
were there had their weapons somewhere not with them. So, I don’t know. We might have had a
mule with some of the North Vietnamese but we were talking back and forth. I don’t know;
talking about family or talking about the weather. Anything but war. And I remember some of
our pilots in the 1st cav, if you were an officer or somebody and you’re flying in one of the
bubbles, they’d teach you how to fly that thing. And so, somebody was teaching one of our high
ranking officers and they came in with a bubble and what you are supposed to do is fire up
gently and then you set it down. You don’t do this.
Interviewer: Yeah. (01:56:02)
Veteran: And what happened was he did it wrong and the skids hit this way and it just wrenched
everything apart right underneath him. And he took the apparatus that steers it and he threw it
through the windshield. We had to go pick up that thing and take it away. The reason I didn’t get
that—I could fly them when we were up but I wasn’t allowed to fly them because I couldn’t keep
it steady, just like it was all over the place. No, you can’t land or take off these things. If you
want to do that, you can do that up here. But we—I’d go out on reconnaissance with them and
we’d look around and the enemy would shoot at us. They could shoot—they had anti-aircraft
guns that could shoot 1500 feet in the air. And I thought they were flies. “Look at the flies!”
They said, “They’re not flies.” They were gray things, long gray things. They were tracers.
Interviewer: Yep.
Veteran: I didn’t know that. But anyway so, I can’t think of anything else.
Interviewer: Alright. So, we get down now to August, ’66…
Veteran: ’66, yeah.
�51
Interviewer: So, that’s time to rotate home. So, what’s the process now for getting you back
to the states?
Veteran: Well, basically, I was in good health; that was good. And I didn’t—all the documents
that I had were turned in properly so there was accountability there. The weapons and equipment
I had were all accounted for. That was basically it. And then, they took me to New Pleiku, to the
airfield. And I got on a C-141 Starlifter and flew to San Francisco.
Interviewer: Okay, so again, you don’t get the chartered civilian jet thing. You are on a
military aircraft.
Veteran: I am on a military aircraft and boy, when it hauled the wheels up, we all hooped it up
because we were homebound.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, are you still married at this point? Or…?
Veteran: Yeah, I got married when I was in Germany. I married a German girl and we had 3
children together.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, do you get leave home once you come back? When you come back
from Vietnam, do you get leave home for 30 days or do they just send you to another base
or what happens? (01:58:15)
Veteran: Well no, they gave me—I think I had 30-day vacation or leave. My wife was there. She
really didn’t want to have anything to do with me when I got there. Hmm…She made friends
with one of my brother’s friends and propositioned him, I found out later on. And so, that
marriage was on the way out and I didn’t know it. She had told her friends in Fort Benning
where I had left, I left from Fort Benning, went to there and I was coming back to the Fort
�52
Benning, Georgia area. I landed in San Francisco and then she and I flew to Columbus, Georgia.
My mother was still alive so she spent a couple days there. Then my brother Richard, oldest
brother, was there. He’s the one that was in the Navy for about 4-5 years. And so, we had some
time. And then I got into Columbus, Georgia and everything was just sort of strange. I couldn’t
understand it. The kids seemed to be okay. But that was where it ended. And I found out, later
on, I found out that she had talked of what kind of a mean person I was. I don’t know. And
whatever it was. But she was very unfaithful while I was gone. And I think she had a miscarriage
while I was gone too. I didn’t know about it. When we had that battle on the 18th of December,
she wept during that time while I was gone. Because that was the time she could look out the
window—she was living in a civilian house because we had to move off post. And the Army
brown, you know, Army brown sedan with a white star on it would come in the neighborhood
and it had a survival assistance officer and a chaplain in it. And she was crying because it never
stopped at our house. (02:00:21)
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: That was a terrible welcome home. I just kept that to myself. But that was…I don’t
know how many of our guys went through that but at least that pain I can share with those that
have gone through that too. So, alright, so I got back into there and then I had orders to report to
come back to Fort Holabird, Maryland. And I was going to get back into the intelligence advance
course. And so, I bought a house because I was going to be there for a while. And what happened
was I went through the advanced course and did well. And then from that, they sent me to get my
college education. Now, know—remember I talked to you about this surveillance in depth that I
had to get a math book?
Interviewer: Right.
�53
Veteran: Math is not my subject and I only had a high school diploma, whatever, certificate. And
so, they sent me to the University of Maryland to learn computer science.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Information systems management. I liked the word ‘management.’ I didn’t understand
the rest. But I got in there and it almost killed me because it was all math. It was all logic. The
fact is, computers are nothing but a logic machine. It’s either on or off. and you put it in parallel
series depending on what you are doing. So, I learned an awful lot about that. And during that
time, I came home one day and there was a note on the refrigerator that said, “I am leaving to
find myself.” Hmm…Nobody was in the house. Nobody was in the house; 3 children are gone. I
found one downtown, one was with my mother back to San Francisco, and the other was in
Germany with grandpa. And so, I notified them and the grandpa disowned his daughter.
Interviewer: Now, how old were the kids at that time?
Veteran: 10, 7, and 5.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: The boy was 10, and the 2 girls were 5 and 7.
Interviewer: Alright. Okay. (02:02:45)
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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RHC-27
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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TalmadgeR2152V2
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Talmadge, Roger S.
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2017-09
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Talmadge, Roger (Interview transcript and video, part 2), 2017
Description
An account of the resource
Roger Talmadge went to Vietnam with an advanced party, the 11th air assault division, which became the 1st cavalry division, air mobile in 1965. They were tasked with building a camp at An Khe. Roger later was deployed with his division to the Ia Drang Valley, where he was involved in several skirmishes. He would also deliver supplies to various companies during combat as well. Roger helped medevac men from combat zones when necessary. He was involved in an operation in Binh Dinh, Vietnam, on December 18th, 1965. Roger served as an executive officer of his company during his time in Vietnam. He introduced a scouting technique that was referred to as surveillance in depth. He took part in Operation Crazy Horse and was eventually promoted to captain. Roger went on R and R in Thailand. He left Vietnam in August 1966. After leaving Vietnam, Roger returned to Fort Holabird, Maryland and received additional intelligence training. He attended the University of Maryland to study computer science.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American
Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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In Copyright
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video/mp4
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7340d2fbbd56f5485a781b8e15fba4ad.mp4
76cb0f518e9858aa59e8817fe3026e7c
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7c0dc0ce31c26eb6ab68a3a4a02598e4.pdf
461e90df9df5f530fc3f80b4e5b13a2f
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Roger Talmadge (Part 1 of 5)
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interview length: 2:00:32
Interviewer: We are talking today with Roger Talmadge of Roanoke, Virginia and the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History
Project. Okay, start us off with a little bit of background on yourself. And to begin with,
where and when were you born?
Veteran: I am Roger Stewart Talmadge. I am one of three sons of my dear mother and father. I
was born in Glen Ridge, New Jersey on the 16th of October, 1937.
Interviewer: Okay. And then, did you grow up in New Jersey? Or did you move around?
Veteran: Well, I was raised by Mary Wilson and I found out years later that she was a woman of
color. I never knew the difference. Anyway, she loved my brother and myself and I grew up to
about four and a half years. And then, of course, the war had started and my father was
transferred. He was a salesman and he sold materials for making uniforms so he was—when I
was about four, four and a half—we moved to Dallas, Texas. And we lived there a year. And
then after a year, about ’43 or early ’44, we moved to St. Louis, Missouri where I grew up, until I
joined the military.
Interviewer: Okay. And how much schooling did you get initially?
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Veteran: When I first got in the Navy on the 23rd of October,1954 I had 10 years. And then I
went to—I got in the Navy Reserve and became an aviation electronic technician. And when I
went to boot camp, it was a special training unit because in the Korean War when the Navy hit
the beach on that invasion of North Vietnam, the LSTs were sunk by artillery and so the blue
jackets with Navy personnel would dismount the ship and pick up an M1 Garand that no one was
using on the beach—beach that the Marines had landed—and try to engage to join in the battle.
And the gunny would say, “Over the hill.” And the big guy would stand up and get hit and of
course I had to haul them away. So, in my Navy boot camp, I learned Marine infantry tactics and
other kinds of things that Marines do. (00:02:28)
Interviewer: Okay. When you were telling that story, you were referencing invasion of
North Vietnam. Did you mean North Korea at that point?
Veteran: North Korea. Thank you. North Korea.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Not Vietnam, North Korea.
Interviewer: Now, to back up a little bit. So, you basically—you went through 10th grade
and then you enlisted in the Navy? Okay. And what motivated that?
Veteran: Well, my brother got in and he was a college graduate from I guess MIT or some place
like that. And so, he was flying some kind of a circuit. He called it a weatherology kind of thing
from the United States across the Ozarks and back again on a regular tour. And I found out later
on he was also…they were hunting submarines. My brother 2 years older than me also got in the
Navy. But he got in both—that was active duty. And my brother Larry got in the Navy also. And
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but—he got out immediately because they found out he had epilepsy and so he got out. So, I got
in the Navy Reserve, trying to see what I could do and still finish my high school training.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, when you enlist in the Naval Reserve…Now this is 1954, so you
were 17 years old at that time?
Veteran: I was—my 16th birthday, it was a week after my 16th birthday that I joined the Navy
Reserve.
Interviewer: Okay. I think you had told me you were born…Let’s see, in ’37? And…
Veteran: This is ’54.
Interviewer: You’d be 17 years, I guess. I don’t think they would take you at 16. They
would take you at 17. (00:04:09)
Veteran: That’s good point.
Interviewer: Yeah. That’s the math. That’s also the math but okay.
Veteran: It is also an error. And my parents had to sign me in, because I was 16.
Interviewer: Okay. Well, they would have to sign you in if you were 17 too.
Veteran: They would too but I was 16.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Alright, so anyway—so you have gone and you joined in and so
once you have signed up, now what did they do with you? Where do you get your initial
training—your basic training?
Veteran: I went up to Wold-Chamberlain Naval Air Station up there in Minneapolis and I got my
basic training, my boot camp training, there. And then, I returned back to my…it was an attack
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fighter squadron at Naval Air Station Lambert Field. And stayed there until the…until…I guess
it was June of ’56, 1956. And I went back up to Wold-Chamberlain and got my electronics
training. I also had a 60-man drill team that we took around the state of Minnesota for display or
whatever. Whatever they wanted for when they wanted a military unit. And the only reason they
did that is because of my Marine drill training—drill master training.
Interviewer: Okay. So, and that was what you had gotten at the original boot camp when
you were started training?
Veteran: Yeah, I learned that in the original boot camp. When I came back, they recognized me
from my former time and so they—the 60-man team—there I promised them girls and drinks.
And every place we went, they met girls and had drinks. (00:06:03)
Interviewer: Yeah, there they were. Alright, just to clarify here: you joined the Naval
Reserve so does that mean that you’re…Is that the weekend warrior thing initially?
Veteran: It’s a weekend warrior. I went to training once a month at Naval Air Station at Lambert
Airfield.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And then once a year, 2 weeks out of the year, I would live there and continue the
training. I worked on F9F attack fighters, aircraft. They folded up their wings at night. And also,
worked on P2V Neptunes, which was a Hunter-Killer multi engine turbo jet.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Aircraft.
Interviewer: Now, were you being given specialized training for that?
�5
Veteran: Yes, absolutely. I was in electronics. I was a certified electronics technician. I worked
on navigation equipment.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, did they give you that training in St. Louis or did they send you
other places for that?
Veteran: I got the initial—the basic—training at Wold-Chamberlain.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And then the experience where I had to practice it in Lambert Airfield.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you got to the technical training up in Minnesota too along with the
drill training and the rest of it?
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now then, how long do you stay with—in St. Louis?
Veteran: Well, I stayed with the Navy Reserve and also, I got involved with recruiting. I went to
the Armed Forces recruiting station, whatever they called them in those days, and so I could get
in high school where they couldn’t because I was a high schooler. And so, I got in all the high
schools in the Webster Groves area, which is one of the suburbs of St. Louis. And beyond,
surrounding that area. And so, I could—when they had some kind of event, I could hand out
pamphlets for the Army, the Marine Corps, the Navy, and Air Force. So, and that’s how I got to
know the Army recruiter. And the Army recruiter said, “You know, we read your scores. When
you got in the Navy, when you joined on the 23rd of October, ’54. [so he really was 17—chalk up
one for the interviewer] You got high scores on that. Why don’t you take our little test and see
what you think.” (00:08:28)
�6
Veteran: So, I went and when it came out, they said, “We could send you directly to officer
candidate school right now.” And I thought to myself: I don’t know anything. You got to know
something to…You know, I had made petty officer which was moving up into the—that kind of
environment. But I just had to be honest with him. So, I…They said, “Well, how about some
other job?” And I didn’t know anything about infantry or any of that stuff. But they said, “How
about the intelligence service?” So, I did a little bit of homework on it and I said, “I will sign up
for that.” I didn’t know what I signed up for. But they did ship me to Germany. I went to basic
training. And when I went to basic training for the Army, it was in the engineers’ school in
Missouri. And again, the first—when you get there—you have a couple of days and you get sort
of organized. And then, they know that they have counted the number of people and they’ll put
you in—they’ll assign you to a rifle or rifle company of some training battalion. And you go
through 3 months of training. Well, when we—after a weekend—we showed up on a Monday
morning at our training site. And they put us in formation and they pulled 6 of us out of the
formation. And they had us line up next to each other. And we are looking at each other and said,
“Oh boy, we’re in trouble. Maybe they are going to put us on a truck and take us out a ways from
off the post.” And what they said, the sergeant said, “Gentlemen, these 6 men are your leaders.
You might not know that but I—there is one difference between you and them. Anybody want to
know why?” Somebody raised their hand, “No, sir.” “No, you call me sergeant. I can see my face
in their boots.” See, the Marines taught me that. (00:10:38)
Veteran: So, my boots were spit-shined like the rest of the guys. And I was one of the squad
leaders in a rifle platoon. There was about 3 platoons there. But also, I have a knack for
mimicking folks. In other words, I could—and that really helped me in that and learning foreign
languages later. What I did—my platoon training sergeant, he was a sergeant…I guess Sergeant
�7
First Class. And he was a boxer. He could have been professional for all I know but he wasn’t.
But he was a boxer and he represented the United States Army in some really interesting things
in boxing. And he got hit right here and it messed up his box—his voice box. And so, he had to
take a breath like this when he’d tell us what to do. And so, I got mimicking that. My
commanding officer was born and raised in New Jersey and he came behind the formation with
the platoon sergeant and he said, “What do we do? Court martial him or shoot him?” So, I just
ran into the formation, pretended like I didn’t move. But I had them—that’s the only—that
platoon was standing tall. Nobody else was, you know, goosing each other and messing around.
But I got after them. But anyway, that was kind of fun to…I didn’t realize that that would come
in handy later on. When we left the cantonment area, they pulled me outside the company, and
that’s 120 men, and they had me sing Marine in cadence songs. But some of them were
inappropriate for the cantonment area. So, we did that. (00:12:25)
Interviewer: Alright. Now, this is Fort Leonard Wood that you were at?
Veteran: Fort Leonard Wood.
Interviewer: Yeah. Okay, because you mentioned Missouri but I just for the record here I
wanted to make sure we had that on there. Because that’s where the engineer school is.
Okay. And then about how long did that basic training go on?
Veteran: 3 months.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, and then once they finished that, did they give you intelligence
training? Or what happens next?
Veteran: Oh yes. Yes, I left that place I think it was June of…It must have been June of ’57. And
I progressed to Fort Howard Park, which is located just outside of Baltimore. And so, I was there
�8
another 3 months. And what they did, they covered the major military occupational specialties
for—that you would have as an enlisted man, just to sort of get sort of an introduction. So, I went
through that. And then, they said, “Okay, you’re going to be an order of battle specialist.” I went
through there and when I was talking to the sergeant trying to figure out what could I do in some
of those fields. I didn’t want to get hung up in technology because that is limiting. So, he said,
“Well, our managers are order of battle specialists. They organize. They look at things and they
organize things and all these skillsets come to work in those areas, depending on how it is
organized.” So, I signed up for that. And he promised me, he said, ‘Well, when you get your next
assignment, you go to your senior intelligence officer and have him give you a brief of the area
that he’s concerned about.” You know, I would probably get assigned to something and the
senior officer could give me that briefing. So, I said, “Well, is that a promise?” He said,
“Absolutely.” He didn’t know any—I didn’t know that that was one of those things. (00:14:28)
Veteran: So, I got aboard a ship and went across the Atlantic Ocean on the ship and they dropped
me off in Hamburg. And that was in June, the end of June, 1957. And I was transported there to
Oberursel, which is just about 11 kilometers outside of Frankfurt and Mainz.
Interviewer: Okay. And once you get there, now what happens to you? How are you
received?
Veteran: Well, I was processed in and they noted my specialty. And they gave me some
equipment, not much. And because when I was assigned to a unit, I would get whatever field
things that you need. So, I was getting oriented. So, I go downtown and I didn’t speak any
German. So, I just go downtown and go to the restaurants and I didn’t know what I was getting, I
just ordered food. And some of it I liked and some of it I had no idea what I was eating. But that
didn’t last for very long. And then they did assign me to the 7th United States Army with the
�9
525th MI [Military Intelligence] Battalion. And when I got in with them, that was further
orientation. And I went downtown with whoever the GIs were there. And trying to expose
myself to Germany. And so that lasted for a couple months. And eventually, I finally got—it
was—I was assigned to the 207th, the 207th MI Detachment. I was in error before. And there I got
all my frontline stuff. You know, whenever you have to maneuver, you have frontline stuff you
have to wear. I got my weapon. I don’t even know what it was. I guess it was an M-14. I used—
qualified with the M-1. I could hit a target at 1100 yards away. (00:16:54)
Veteran: But that is just a once in a lifetime thing. You don’t do—I’ll never do that again. But
they did train us at Fort Leonard Wood to do that. So then, I got to know some German—I lived
in a German safe house. And what it is, it’s a known facility but it is just away from everything.
And it used to be the servant quarters to some German who was a wealthy, wealthy land owner
or something. And the house was a mansion and we were in this small guest…guest whatever
you call it. Workers that cooked and took care of the property. To me, that was a mansion. It was
lovely. We had German ladies that would cook for us and that is where I learned different kinds
of foods. And we had some—our only vehicles were Army jeeps. We didn’t have any civilian—
any civilian, all military. (00:18:00)
Veteran: And so there, I went out along the Czech western border. And my first encounter was
probably July or August. I was on the Czech border and two German border police came up to
me and they said, “You come with me.” And so, they were saying, I guess, come with me or
something. I don’t know. But they—these guys were kind of bigger than me. I was going with
them anywhere. And so, they got me behind a big tree and then they said, “Now, show all.” And
they pointed to a tower and there is 3 towers: there is one right in front of me and 2 here. And
they had a 14.7-millimeter anti-aircraft gun that they were watching me. They were tracking me
�10
and they told me this in German. I translated that in English. I was in trouble. I didn’t know what
they said but they said that I should not move this way but move this way and away. And I did
do that. But I was within 100 yards of their border. And so, they wanted to get me away.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, why were you there? What had you been sent to do?
Veteran: Well, I was being oriented on my job. My job was to organize things but you had to be
familiar with what you’re dealing with. And there, I was able to—and I can draw it out to you, I
remember it still—the layout of the several—there’s 5 walls of barbed wire and it goes way high.
And then they have some fields that have land mines and then they have other kinds of things
that…And then they have the towers and the lights and all that other stuff. And one tower can
see two towers, the old Roman way of defense. And so, they had the place well-covered. They
also had some gates once in a while. And they’d come across and laugh at us and go back during
the winter months when it was skiing and they would close the gates up. I wasn’t there for that
but at least I was introduced to what it looked like all the way from west Germ—the complete
border from west Germany. And our section, that was sort of the southern portion of it where we
had our—we had people monitoring what is going there all around the clock. (00:20:23)
Interviewer: Yeah. So—
Veteran: My headquarters were back here and those little offices were all along the German
villages. What I did when I was in my detachment house, I’d go out with the German citizens
and these fellows were sons of some wealthy people. Like a great big furniture clearing house,
they built furniture, beautiful stuff, and then they would put it in a retail environment. Well, they
would take me downtown with me. And this was in Stuttgart. And April, 1944, the British and
the American bombers had leveled the city except for the old city. We always kept the old city so
�11
we could re-orient ourselves when they flew in there. And so, and that was the transportation—
north, south, east, west, crossing. So, they just tore out and bombed all of that stuff away. When I
got there in June and—well, July or whenever it was, August—they had already demonstrated
something and they killed some of our GIs. Put their heads in the fountain. So, when I went
downtown with these guys, and I would go into the Old Stadt and go into cities, restaurants or
places where you get drinks, the people from the opera house used to come in and perform. I
really heard some wonderful music and I was used to that from home. And so, now I got to see it
and hear it. And so, I was really thrilled with that. But they told these guys that I was deaf and
dumb so I said nothing. (00:22:11)
Veteran: But I learned a lot of language. And I would ask them about it later. And we got in a—
the police called us one night. We were driving along and that general area, I guess it was
Nuremberg this time. We were driving in the general area and I started making the sound of the
German police when they are after you, the doo da sound. And it sounded realistic and a police
car come up along side us and fined them 50 marks. He thought it was funny. I didn’t think it
was funny. It scared the willies out of me. But anyway, so I picked up a lot of words. In the
meantime, I worked on some crypto stuff. I had one of the old—it was a German cipher system.
And so, they had me work on that and do a little administration here, odds and ends, and they
also had me be the clerk, the company clerk. And you have to type everything first time correctly
and I made a lot of mistakes. A lot of papers I was throwing over my shoulder. Anyway, one
time when I was there, a Lieutenant Colonel Marratti shows up and he is the commanding officer
of the 525th MI Battalion. And he was out of Stuttgart and I was in Nuremberg so I got them
mixed up when I was talking about that other earlier about Stuttgart. But anyway, he asked me is
there any needs I have? Yeah, Nuremberg. And I asked him, I said, “Really, this job here is—I
�12
am really having a hard time with it but I am trying my very best, sir. Very best. I do have a
need: one of my recruiters promised me that I should go to the senior intelligence officer in my
local command and get a brief on what he is confronted by and that way I could organize for my
detachment commander. I could organize this great big roll up map to reflect what he is facing
and then change it because we got reports every day. And very seldom did it change anything on
the other side but once in a while, they caught something moving and that—then I had to
interpret what that meant. If they went this way, sideways, that was one thing but if they are
coming towards you, that is different.” (00:24:38)
Veteran: So, the Colonel laughed. He said, “Okay. I’ll get back to you on that one.” So, about 3
weeks or 4 weeks, I don’t know what it was, I forgot about it. My detachment commander, who
was a major, called me in the office and he said, “Sir,”—I was a private—he said, “Young man,
Colonel Marratti has set you up with a briefing with the senior intelligence officer for the
command. It just so happens to be the G2 of the 7th United States Army in Stuttgart. You’ll take
a train there and stay over-night and get briefed by him, take a train and come back and tell me
what he tells you.” Oh man. So, I made sure my uniform—I wore the old Ike jacket and all that
stuff—made sure it was—I had it tailor-made so I looked pretty sharp. I didn’t weigh anything so
it didn’t matter. So, I went in, got settled in my little barracks. And then the next morning I went
over there at 9 and reported in to the secretary. And so, the secretary, or whatever the sergeant
there, took me into the office and sat me down in the briefing room. And the briefing room could
hold about 30 people and I was the only guy in there. And he sat me right in the middle up front
and here is this huge board with this map on it and—of Germany. And so, I just sat there. And
this tall guy comes in: he is a full colonel. (00:26:09)
�13
Veteran: And he said, “Son, I have come to brief you. Your sergeant said that you—I am going
to give you that briefing.” And I didn’t know what to do. He says, “Now, you just sit right here.”
And so, he started at one end and went to the other end and he explained to me that if you have
something that’s armored, it is painted yellow. If it’s tanks, it is something else. If it’s engineers,
it is something else. Infantry, you got several types of it and it is blue. And if it’s airborne it has
got one symbol and if it is mechanized it’s got another symbol. If it is just for soldiers, it is
another symbol. And they have certain rank—each one is different strength and so forth. And
depending on what is happening, they will get them in combinations of groups, a task force. So,
they will have a lot of stuff. They will even have artillery and some of it is mobile. You know, it
is mobile artillery. And so, he went all through that stuff and that is red. He asked, “Any
questions?” So, I asked a bunch of questions. And I made notes. I mean, I was making notes, I
had my notebook and I was going and all this stuff my mind was trying to figure out how to
make—how to take what he did and duplicate that for the major, Major Brown at the
detachment. So, I got finished with that and he said, “Well son, I want you to know something.”
I said, “What is that, sir?” The lowest rank I’ve ever briefed this briefing is a 2-star major
general. I hope you enjoyed it. And if you have any questions, son, you call me.” Well, I left. I
saluted and left. So, it took me a while but I got it. And his office had one of these jail gates in it,
you know? Steel bars. And his map was classified because of that knowledge. It would confirm
to some outsider that we knew more than what they knew that we knew.
Interviewer: Right. (00:28:13)
Veteran: So, I looked at that monster, I said, “Well sir, I think I am going to need some time in
here.” “Fine.” So, what I did is I color coded the whole—everything was black and white—I
color coded the whole thing and you could tell where the armored was located and if they
�14
moved, that is very sensitive stuff. If the artillery moves behind them, that’s really big stuff. I
mean, not only does that cause interest in our battalion, which is intelligence, but also for our
division, our corps, and our 7th United States Army. And I wanted him to know whatever, I could
figure it out. So anyway, we color coded all of that and you could look at it and you could see
where that stuff was and when it moved, he was able to do things to it and they could see when
something was happening. So, when the Berlin Wall came up on the 13th of August in 1963,
50,000 tanks moved closer to the border. So, that was kind of neat. I was in Italy at the time. I
had to come back quickly for that. But anyway—
Interviewer: I think that would have been ’61?
Veteran: Was it ’61?
Interviewer: Berlin Wall, yeah.
Veteran: ’61…
Interviewer: Yeah, Cuban Missile Crisis is 1962.
Veteran: 1961—
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: 13th, ’61. You’re right. I am glad you caught that.
Interviewer: I am a historian.
Veteran: Good, because you—see, I still was there.
Interviewer: Right.
�15
Veteran: I stayed there. I was there in country until ’62 so not ’63. Okay, so that is when the wall
went up. And so, that was significant. After putting up the wall, they moved themselves to—it
was a show of force. And that was one of the things I had to learn: what some of these
formations mean. I didn’t know that part. But I knew that it meant it’s a show of danger. That’s
all I could figure out. So… (00:30:13)
Interviewer: Alright. Now see, you kind of laid out for us what it meant to be an order of
battle specialist. You’re identifying where all the enemy forces are and keeping track of
them and so forth. And so, you have done that by creating the map and this kind of thing.
What other kinds of jobs did you have while you were in Germany? When you did that
part—
Veteran: Okay, so that part I was very diligent with that and I spent a lot of time downtown on
the weekends. I bought the commanding officers old 1949 Ford and did whatever to it to, not
spruce it up, but to make sure it was running right. And then I would look at the little money I
had—I didn’t have a lot of money, I was still a private. They lost my prior service records or
didn’t, whatever, and that money came in later. And but anyway, so I looked at the little money I
had and the exchange rate to German marks was good then, very fine, so I would figure out what
that meant and then I’d go out. I’d go north for a while and stop, go to some village and I’d go to
the local Stube, which is a restaurant, and I’d look for a bunch of old guys and I would sit down
with them. And I’d tell them, “Ich bin Amerikaner. Ich will Deutsch lernen.” That’s all. That’s
all I told them. I said, “I am an American and I want to learn German.” And so, they would tell
me some off the wall stories and I would get but part of it and but they are all laughing and
having a good time. And they enjoyed it: a young man that wants to have a heart for Germany. It
�16
goes back to this guy with a throat thing, figure out where he lives. I didn’t know that I was
doing that but I was doing that. (00:32:14)
Veteran: And so, then I would go east and then I would go south and different places. And I still
went to these guys that I got in trouble with when the Germans come over in Nuremberg. So, I
continue that. I work with this crypto thing and whenever it failed, I figured some kind of
algorithm. I didn’t know it was an algorithm but I figured some mathematical way to fix it. I’d be
deep into a message, deciphering it, and the thing would, I don’t know, maybe I hiccupped or
burped or something. And so, I figured a way to catch back up where it messed up and then go
form there. I mean, that was a sequential thing but nonetheless. And I was able to do that quickly
because the machine was a quick machine to catch up. So, I did that for a while and then at some
point, the detachment commander would call 2 of us. There was a guy that had a really
intelligent fellow. And he came from North Carolina. And his name was Bill. And so, Bill and I
were called in the office to the detachment commander, Major Brown. He said, “They’re looking
for 80 men to get some special training and we would like you to apply for it. We will support
you. And you might not get it but, you know, there is a lot of people that will be applying for it.
They’re going after people in Europe because they are already here. They have some kind of a—
and also, they want to know if you’re teachable.” And I didn’t know he was looking for
something specific and he couldn’t tell me. Teachable? Okay. So, here’s this little detachment so
he and I put in our stuff. And he has a nice resume, did well in college, all the right kinds of
things, met all the right kind of people. His uncle was the commanding general of 7th U.S. Corps.
he is a—I mean, he was a lieutenant general. I even went down to see him, just for the heck of it.
(00:34:22)
�17
Veteran: So, anyway, so alright. So, we put this stuff in and I am guessing 100-150 people put
their names in it. And the 80 were selected and Bill and I were—we were both PFCs at the
time—we got promoted. And so, they—we went down there. And these other guys are sergeants,
lieutenants, and captains, and it stopped at captains. There is a reason for that. And alright, so we
got down there and then they selected the language. I don’t know what Bill got but I got Polish
and that is a real blessing. Remember, I was the most uneducated one of the bunch and I needed
everything that would help me. Polish is the only Slavic language that is written in Latin letters. I
didn’t know that. But it really helped. And as the letters are laid out, that is exactly how you
pronounce it. So, that was—so, pronouncing it was also good. Now, I had a couple of really good
teachers that pushed us hard and such like that. So, I learned Polish and I got—I think I got a B+
or something in that course. I had to do a couple of things and that was reading, writing, and also
to be able to use my skills in interrogations. You may have to do that too. Now, I was the
youngest guy in the class and there is a lieutenant, at least a couple lieutenants, that thought I was
a problem because I was different than anybody else. I wasn’t quite strack, as you call it, and
refined was the other word. And so, they would get after me for all kinds of silly things. I also
had a terrible allergy and so in bright lights like this, I had to wear sunglasses in my classroom
and they—little things like that really upset them. But nonetheless, got through that course and
did fine and survived them. And then, then we took a maybe a couple days break and then
switched to go into German. So, the people that were taking Slavic language the first time were,
first half of the course—6 months , would take German. The others—they switched the others
around so you—so the Slavic language folks had always a new bunch every 6 months.
(00:36:54)
�18
Veteran: So, we got into class and 2 of our classes were set aside. And you walked in the
classroom and I had 12 or 13 or 14 other fellows in there. And this other class had the same thing
and I don’t know what else happened. Or maybe less, maybe we had 10 in those. Small class.
And so, I thought oh well, hmmm…So, he came up and he said, “I am Mr. Walters. I got in the
service in…” whatever it was; 1940 or something like that. And he learned English. He could
speak all kinds of dialect whether in Chicago, St. Louis, New York, California, doesn’t matter.
And he demonstrated that for us a little bit. Now, I was supposed to land on the shores of New
Jersey in 1944 but then we had some visitors that showed up at Normandy so I was changed to
that. So, I was fighting the American and British and anybody else forces on their borders. And
of course, I was in Germany for a long time. He was in—we only had one German fighting us
because everyone else was still fighting the Russians. (00:38:13)
Veteran: That’s what they told me. Everybody I met said, “Oh, I was fighting the Russians. I was
always on the Eastern Front of…Well, hmmm.” So, he was the only—so, what he would do: he
would listen to the battalions as they are talking to the companies on their radio and he’d mimic
them. Oh, I can relate to that. And then, he sent bales of hay to the artillery units and the artillery
ammunition to a transportation unit. And then the war ended and I don’t know where they picked
them up but they hired him to be our teacher. And then he went on to say, “*speaking German*”
[what he says translates to “From now on we only speak German. No more English.] So
basically, he shut us off and we didn’t speak English in the class ever again. But he took
advantage of that to take us out on the town to different things to introduce us to instead of me
going there and saying, “Ich mag essen,” I’d like to eat and sometimes it was good and
sometimes it was bad. I learned the good stuff was schnitzel and the other stuff you don’t eat
because it is something else. But he helped us with that. And let’s see…Nothing in particular.
�19
Interviewer: Did he do German dialect at all or different parts of Germany?
Veteran: Well, what happened—what really helped me is I speak a kind of a German, it’s not the
Hoch Deutsch, I can’t do that. But basically, I would speak in Dusseldorf. When I was able to
pick up Schwabisch, and it’s a difficult language. It is close to Stuttgart. And I used to go to the
restaurants. And I could pick up their dialect. I just sensed it. (00:40:06)
Veteran: And then I go to Bavaria and they speak completely different. Bavaria is completely
different. And for instance, you’re walking down a street and they say, “Ris Gott,” which means,
“Greet God” you know and you do this. And no, it’s just a hi, hello. And but nobody else says
that. And they had these little colloquialisms. And I had a whole book of them that I had learned.
The fact is, I got so good at it I couldn’t even translate it. I just used it. And so, that was kind of
interesting. But no, the German—it came along well. And I had at least 4 or 5 dialects I could
use. Now, if I were to ever use—I was told that by a captain—that if something happens…In
other words, we go to war? You’re going to be assigned to the Pripet Marshes. And the Pripet
Marshes is the marshes of 5 rivers. You know where that is located?
Interviewer: Yeah. But that’s a good ways east of where you were.
Veteran: Well, the thing is that’s where the irregular forces would gather.
Interviewer: Mhmm, in World War 2 yeah. The partisans against the Germans were there.
Veteran: That’s correct. And that connectivity was still there. And so, what they would do with
us: they’d drop us off some evening, and then we had all our communications that we could use
to bring in supplies or whatever else, or anything that we could pick up intelligence-wise would
help the effort to interdict the long lines of supply coming from Russia into the east. I mean, into
the west. And I was told—and the Russian tactics were—that once they run out of something,
�20
they forage for it. Fuel, basic things. They couldn’t get parts for their vehicles but they could
certainly get other things. So, we’d interrupt that as much as we could. (00:42:14)
Veteran: There was no pick-up plan though. It was a one-way ticket. That was it. Didn’t have
any German. Didn’t have any English—anything with me. I have no markings whatsoever. And
that was the other reason for all of us—no tattoos that they could relate to anything. And so, my
second story and last story was I was a German citizen in a foreign country. The captain told me
that. I said, “How will I get—how do you get there?” I am over there now, in Bavaria. “How in
the world do I get there? You know, the road is probably going to be blocked. The trains are
going to be blocked. You can’t go by train. There is no boats I know you can get into Poland.”
So, he said, “Well, we are going to drop you off airborne.” I said, “But I am not airborne
qualified, Captain.” He said, “Son, I understand, but you will be when you land.” And that was
when they introduced—that’s the only time I heard of it. Now, supposedly that assignment
continued for a number of years afterwards and then it dissipated because the equipment that we
now have, we can pick up all that movement activity or whatever else and try to interdict it way
before it becomes a threat. So, that—I stayed that way and then I moved after my training—I
went back to the 513th MI group and I worked in the debriefing interrogation section. And people
would come across on the borders, any of them, East Germany to West, Hungary or
Czechoslovakia primarily. And I could slur my Polish and talk to the ones from Czechoslovakia.
It was close. I couldn’t write it. And so, I developed reports and that was turned into
Bundesnachrichtendienst, that was the—that’s right, German intelligence service. And what they
would run is background checks and then the ones that were kind of interest, they would come
pick up. And that was at our facility. (00:44:27)
�21
Veteran: The other ones were filtered out to where they were integrated into the German society
to get them jobs and places to sleep or you know, whatever. And become German citizens. On
one occasion, I once in a while would fly out of Wiesbaden and I’d fly into Berlin into…I forget
the name of the airfield.
Interviewer: Is it Tempelhof?
Veteran: Yes. Thank you. And we’d fly by those buildings. We flew over—they flew over the
same buildings when carrying coal in ’49, ’48, ’50 and so forth at Tempelhof. And I picked up
some people and then flew back in a turbo top U.S. Air Force bird. Got him in to—debriefed
him. And found out he was a major general in the East German Air Force. He was the assistant
chief of staff for them. And he got out by himself by coming through Berlin. Came by the SBahn. And so, we noted all of that because we needed to know how to go the other way. So,
they—the Germans were really interested in him. And so, we turned him over to them and it took
about 6 weeks and we got his family out with the children, no losses, out of Potsdam. And they
haven’t figured out today how that happened. That was before the wall came up. So, alright, so
about 5 or 6 months pass. And I really got to know this guy. He helped my German a little bit. I
picked up what he—how they operate in East Germany. And so anyway, I was—I don’t know
where I was. I was at some kind of a social gathering, dance or something, with the unit. And 2
military policemen came in and they come up to me and said, “We have a visitor at the gate and
he wants to speak to Roger and you’re the only Roger we know.” (00:46:33)
Veteran: “Okay, fine.” So, I excused myself and went out to the gate and here’s this guy and they
said, “Oh, you know him?” “Yes, I know him.” He was driving a tractor for an 18-wheeled
vehicle but he left a trailer downtown, wherever that was. And so, we—I got him on post and we
sat down, had coffee, and visited. And he told me, “I can’t tell you but I got a new name. you can
�22
guess what I am.” He was in the Dusseldorf area. He had a new name, he was a truck driver, his
family was up there. They are all in school and doing well. Of course, they speak the language.
That’s not a problem. And he said, “I used to be in charge in the East German Air Force of all
this and now I just drive an 18-wheeled truck anywhere they want me to drive it. I get paid a
whole lot more and I am free.” So, he just wanted to thank me. Isn’t that neat?
Interviewer: Wow. Yeah.
Veteran: Yeah, that’s neat.
Interviewer: That’s pretty impressive.
Veteran: That is neat. So then, from there, I left that assignment and I worked for—I still was
associated with the 513th. But I can’t go in any detail about it. It was a forerunner to…It was an
off-shoot of the OSS. And so, we—I got into human intelligence side of the house. And I got
involved with connectivity with just about anybody in Europe, including that side. But…and I
stayed in that position from 1960-62. And it was during that time, one of my supervisors got
ahold of me and said—and I was going to school at night. I had already got a half a—I got two
years of half a degree. Associate degree from the University of Maryland. (00:48:31)
Veteran: And so, he said, “You ought to go to Officer Candidate School. And so—but you have
to go through—we have to talk to you and discuss things and vet you and just check you out
before they even recommend you for that kind of thing. So, why don’t you—to get practice at
being interviewed and that kind of thing—why don’t you go through this effort.” So, I signed up
to become a direct commission. And I did. I went through that stuff and they would tell me to
read the newspaper, read particularly the sports section and know the players by name and find
some way to make them laugh. Hmm…Well, and I was just a brand-new sergeant. What do I—I
�23
didn’t know anything; I was about 25 years old at that point in time. And so, I started the process
and I got through one board and that turned out nicely. And I did all those things. So, I really
studied. I was encouraged and I kept doing—reading more and looking at things. I am trying to
find out what I was slow on in the first round and dig more, get more of that stuff. Tell some
personal experience that were hilarious and possibly shouldn’t be mentioned, meaning it wasn’t
classified, it was compromising. (00:50:06)
Veteran: So, they liked that. And I continued on. And then, I got to a point where they said,
“Okay, now we got to…You seem to be a good candidate. So, we are going to start—we are
going to put you through the physical stuff. Check you out physically and whatever else we need
to do.” So, I went through that. And the only thing I got hung up on was my allergies. They were
so…I used the word that says they are all the time and a doctor from Heidelberg wrote back and
said, “Does he want a direct commission or not? Really. Tell him to write seasonal hay fever.”
And I did. And that actually—when I started taking care—they told me how to take care of
myself, it became seasonal hay fever. I just was not taking care of myself. So, anyway, I got that
direct commission in June of 1962. And then, so I was transferred out of this assignment I had in
downtown…Downtown Frankfurt. Frankfurt is close, or like I say, 11 kilometers apart. And
while I was in there, my—it was my first wife and myself, we created a touring…No, it wasn’t.
No, we didn’t. It wasn’t then; that comes later. But anyway, I left that assignment and I came
back to the original place that I came in June of ’57. And they made me a deputy executive
officer and they are getting ready for inspector general. Now, you know and I know that I have
been through a lot of stuff on how to get ready for inspections and how to look like something.
And of course, your room has to be right and everything in your locker has to be orderly and it’s
a certain place and all that. So, I went in there and tore the place up and got everybody mad at
�24
me. And the captain was West Point. And I don’t know what in the world—I don’t know what
his executive officer was. He didn’t know what to—he did not know what to think of that. And I
told him, “Sir, if you’re not blunt, they’re not going to do anything. They’ll flunk out. If I were
the inspector general, I’d have given you an F. That’s what I would have done.” And that’s what
I would have done. Anyway, so he—okay, alright—he listened to that. And I thought a West
Point officer was a little bit different than that but I found out you have West Point officers and
other officers and the other officers usually know how to relate to you but the West Point officers
are a little distant. And in some cases, rightfully so. (00:52:52)
Veteran: They need to be. They’re officers. But anyway, they need to communicate too. But
anyway, so then we had an inspection one time and the outfit was out there. He wanted me to
walk behind him, next to him but behind him, and inspect the troops and then he would critique
me and the first sergeant on what they might want to do. and quite frankly, they looked really
sharp, except this little guy about this tall, about 4 foot or so tall, was walking next to me dressed
in a captain’s uniform. So, we get finished with all of that. I was just—I was just—I was really
upset but I was really moved by that but I just had to really bite my tongue. So, we get in the
building and I chewed him out. “As a West Point officer, you just insulted everybody out there
and you’re not kidding anybody. You don’t dress your child up as an officer where they have—
you salute the uniform, not the person. And if you think they are saluting you because you are a
West Point officer, there is something wrong with this. And I hope I didn’t upset you.” He said,
“Oh no, that’s fine.” Well anyway, they looked sharp. They really looked sharp. The only thing
that—I said, “Don’t show up to a formation with him dressed like that ever again. He’s your son,
let him follow you in other ways.” (00:54:08)
�25
Veteran: So then, the other thing I did, which is kind of unique, before I left that command in
’62, September, I walked into the non-commissioned officers’ club with my hat on. Do you
know what that means? You buy the drinks. So, I put $200 on the counter. I said, “Yesterday it
was Roger. Today, it’s sir. Drinks are on me. When I walk out of here, I am Lieutenant
Talmadge and blow it out your butt otherwise.” And so, that’s how we took—they grew up with
me. These guys were teaching me stuff or getting mad at me because of whatever. And it’s
normal things. And so, that’s how I ended that tour of duty. I came back to the United States and
then into Fort Hood, into the 203rd MI detachment.
Interviewer: Okay. Just to back up a little bit. I mean, you mentioned sort of your human
intelligence assignment was one you can’t say a whole lot about. Did that involve actually
going into Eastern Europe? Or did you stay within West Germany and our side?
Veteran: I stayed on the west side. I didn’t cross over. I had plans…if I did, it was under wartime
conditions.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: The only time I was compromised in 1960, one of my Polish instructors, a lady, had me
over for supper. And she kept…Oh, she kept asking me a lot of questions. She must have had a
tape recorder somewhere. But they got my photograph, they got everything. And so, I changed
jobs right after that. I mean, when I came into Oberammergau, I was nowhere. And then, when I
worked in downtown Frankfurt, I was also nowhere. And whatever I did was 1 time but I never
did it again. In fact, that’s how I was working on operation. And I wasn’t trained in this human
stuff. But I understood that you never did something twice. And I caught about 20 of our folks
who were…I was doing the sergeant major’s administration. All these master sergeants and all
�26
that stuff that were trained and really good in their languages, they were out there making
contacts and monitoring the guys that did kind of go over there. (00:56:37)
Veteran: But we didn’t go over there. Bottom line is they were using some of the same cars, the
same apartments or other buildings that other people were and built a network. I compromised
the whole thing so I turned it in. They shut that operation down. They were on us. They were on
us. They could tell who we were. So, I went some place I closed out, which I was a newbie. I
was given a .32 caliber pistol with 5 rounds in it. One chamber had to be empty for safety
purposes. I went to one place and cleaned the place out. And I left. I was wearing a kind of a
sporty jacket, tie, and all that stuff. And these 5 guys, these well-developed older gentlemen were
outside waiting for me. And I came by and they just…and I kept going. And another time—so I
thought that was close. Another time, I borrowed one of the cars that we got from some agency
here in the United States. And it was a Saab. an S-A-A-B, and it has a shifter system. I could
drive any foreign built, European car, but I hadn’t driven this. And I drove it out of the motor
pool and I had a hard time gearing down and then I….And I came to a stop sign and rolled
through it and I was trying to get it in gear and these two horsemen rode up, came up next to me
and knocked on the window and I rolled the window down. And they said, “You rolled through
the—” in German—no, in English, they told me: “You drove through that stop sign.” And I said,
“I am having trouble with this car. I haven’t driven it before.” In German. And then so—I got it
in gear and I jammed it in whatever—first gear I could get it in—and I said as I drove away, I
said, “You can just go use this 10 marks or whatever it is to go by coffee.” And I roared out of
the place. (00:58:52)
�27
Veteran: Now, he could have written my—they could have written my—they were laughing.
They could have written my license plate down. It would have been easy to find me. There was
really nothing to—that was an easy one. But anyway…So, that was sort of wound down that.
Interviewer: Alright. Well, this…So, now we have made it into ’62 and now you complete
that assignment. And now you’re going to move on to your next assignment in Fort Hood,
Texas.
Veteran: Which was at Fort Hood.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Let me tell you when I went to Hood.
Interviewer: Okay. So, we have gotten to the point in your story where you have now gone
back to the States, you go to Fort Hood, Texas. What are you doing there?
Veteran: I am a second lieutenant and this is my first official assignment as a second lieutenant
of the military intelligence. They didn’t have a branch insignia but they were going to have one
so I wore engineer brass. That was a cover. But it didn’t mean anything. And then they put me in
charge: I was a detachment commander and I had command status of prisoner of war,
interrogation of prisoners of war detachment. And my detachment was unique. They have
detachments on the east coast that are geared towards Europe, that part of the world, Africa. And
on the…in Texas, against Asia. Well, mine? I had one of my Russian speakers with me that I
served with. He was a master sergeant. (01:00:34)
Veteran: But it was really neat. So, I had him as my number two man. He was a really excellent
gentleman. Just a fine gentleman. Wonderful family. Now, when I was in Germany, I did get
�28
married. And from that marriage, we had 3 children. So, they were born…2 of them were born in
Europe and 1 was born in Fort Hood. But in the 203rd MI detachment, we had a regular
housekeeping training and the things that you do. And then, we would also gear up for field
exercises. And I participated in 2 rather complex field exercises that took place in South—North
and South—Carolina. And we would…One time, we went there and the aggressor forces was the
5th Mechanized Division. The second time we went there, it was, I guess, elements of the 101st
Airborne and some other mechanized division. I forget who it was. So, we had to prepare for
that. And so, that’s where we pulled our—pulled out our bag of tricks. And these folks I was
with, every one of them was either reserve officer, maybe regular Army, but I don’t think I had
West Pointers in that. And so then, my commander was Lieutenant Colonel Rose, a very find
gentleman. Thought through things very well. And so, he wanted to do things correctly. The
stuffy people were at Corps headquarters. (01:02:27)
Veteran: Now, the G2, which is the intelligence officer for 3rd United States Corps, he’s kind of a
stuffed shirt. And so really, you know what my background is. When I passed him, I’d salute
him; give him a nice high ball. And he wouldn’t return the salute so I turned him in. And I was
probably one of the only officers he’d return the salute. I could care less. I am not there to make
friends. And I didn’t realize it: that’s probably my downfall. But anyway, so getting ready
for…So, we were a strack unit, which means if bad things happen, the 18th Airborne Corps over
here in North Carolina, and the 3rd Corps in Fort Hood, Texas would gear up and get ready for it.
And of course, that comes up. When I was in the Fort Hood unit—when things kind of got messy
and the Cuban Crisis…But meantime, we went to this training. And so, what we did is I went out
there and we maneuvered. We landed in Columbia, South Carolina. We were the red forces. We
were the bad guys. And I didn’t pay attention to a whole lot of stuff. But I do know that some
�29
people in South Carolina didn’t like the bad guys. So, they sprayed our equipment with graffiti
and all kinds of odds and ends. You know? “Pigs go home” that kind of stuff. I don’t know.
(01:04:04)
Veteran: They did that. They did. And of course, the blue forces were the good guys and they
went out there with coffee and donuts and we didn’t get any coffee and donuts. But I
befriended…I befriended—one guy came down to bring us coffee and donuts. We went down to
the river and maybe took a shower down there because we had to shower in that unit. And so, he
would bring little treats that somebody baked. I think like that. He was a very nice gentleman.
And he was an comptroller there for the Kershaw County. And so, he got to know us and I don’t
know, I can’t remember his background military-wise but gosh—he was a Marine, that’s what.
And so, he said, “Is there anything I can do for you? I love coming down here and visiting with
you fellows and I appreciate what you are doing. This is a war game and I understand you have
to do the best you can and some of our local folks have taken advantage of that.” And so on. He
was trying to ask forgiveness for them on their part. Anyway, so he introduced—he took me one
evening to the meeting of the Kershaw County Marines, or Marines of Kershaw County…Post?
Something.
Interviewer: Right. Like a Marine Corps League or something like that?
Veteran: Yeah, a Marine Corps League. And so, we chatted for a while. And they said, “Yeah,
lieutenant, what can we do for you?” And so, I said, “I think we need some help.” So, what we
did…Didn’t know exactly the rules but we were supporting this operation with what we had
from Fort Hood. We had some…I forget the forces we had. But nonetheless, we had—with
permission of Lieutenant Colonel Rose—we had about 5 guys grow beards. (01:06:19)
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Veteran: And then we sent them to the Carolinas 2 months before we got there. And all they did
was just get to know people. And these were—these guys were seasoned soldiers. They knew
what they were doing. They had had some infantry background and that kind of stuff. Airborne.
And bottom line is got to know some very key people in South Carolina. And parts, only certain
parts, of North Carolina. And there is a reason for that. So, we showed up and we really didn’t
talk to them. Nobody ever saw us stick together. I was in my little unit and I was in my little MI
group unit and we did our work and we…housekeeping things and whatever. I’d go out and
interrogate. Sometimes we would capture somebody. And we’d interrogate them. So, we had that
kind of thing going on. There’s a unit that came into some place where they were close to us.
And so, I had my jeep, I had a PPSH, which is a 1941 Soviet machine gun, I had one of those
with me. And so, I captured a deuce and a half and all the equipment on board and 2 soldiers and
found out where the commander was. And he was down the road a piece in a restaurant with his
20 or 30 soldiers. Captured all of them. And he was mad. He was really—he said, “Don’t point
that thing at me.” And so, we wrote that all up and turned that in…
Interviewer: Alright so you… (01:08:16)
Veteran: And turned that information in. And we did that for whatever—a while it was. But that
was good training for our guys. And what happened with—one of the things I found out—so this
is where I needed to know this later on. There was an area, and you could mask it, it was large
and large area. And for some reason, from 2 o’clock on Thursday morning to maybe the next
day, 2 o’clock in the morning, that large field was going to—all of that electricity was going to
be turned off. Already been coordinated with the neighborhood. And there was no lines in that
area but there was electricity in that area. But they were open fields for farming. So, we
surrounded it with a bunch of tanks. Next day, here comes some brigade and they parachute in
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there with the general and we captured the general. And he pulled rank on us and we said, “Sir, I
wasn’t really—” I wasn’t with the capturing party but—“sir, with all due respect, get in this
damn jeep.” And so, we hauled him into the place and brought him to General Dunn, who was a
3-star general, 3rd Corps. And he said, “I am sorry, general, but you are my prisoner.” And so,
that was one of those—I didn’t realize. I knew they would need to make contact but I didn’t
know what it was. In the meantime, these folks from the Kershaw—the Marine Corps League
from Kershaw County made me an honorary member. And they would take their vehicles out
and then they’d come back and report order of battle. And they’d read the—they knew how to
read the numbers on the jeeps and the tanks and the…whatever they had. And so, they would
report where they were located and I just reported that up directly as much as I could. (01:10:17)
Veteran: And so, we sent bombing raids over them to get their supply points. Or we readjusted
ourselves because a whole bunch of people from over here looked like they were going to do
something mean soon. So, we had to either beef it up or leave. So, we did that and on one
occasion, when we were doing this, the second time we returned, we got worse. I mean, we
really did some bad things. So, we did—had the same intelligence, activities, and such like that.
But on the second round, we got them really engaged in a lot of…they almost drained the
military basin in Fayetteville, North Carolina. And they had all the troops down where we were.
And so, we sent a contingent of about 15 guys and they captured the flag off the City Hall of
Fayetteville and brought it back down to us. And the 3-star general of the 18th airborne corps was
livid. And so then, we had a formation and whenever it was, the judges…what is it? The umpires
around them keep things safe so they don’t do something stupid. But also, they—different
tactics. And so, at that time, our units were the 1st and 2nd armored division. This was armor
against armor. So, it is a little bit different but nonetheless they said that we won the second
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round, the second time we were out. So, that means that protocol says the commanding general
of the unit, or his representative, will bring the sword out to the commanding general of the other
unit. So, General Dunn showed up with his staff and somebody showed, up but the 4-star general
didn’t show up, on Fort Bragg. And so, we got that sabre. And of course, you know, General
Dunn had a little party over that. So, that was kind of nice. And he was a very personable
individual. (01:12:28)
Interviewer: Okay. Now, you had mentioned earlier the guys who went and grew the
beards. The guys who grew the beards?
Veteran: Yeah, they—
Interviewer: What did they…Did they give you information or do you have no idea what
they did?
Veteran: Oh, exactly. We ran those operations in Europe. We’d dress people up and do
something and they’d go do it and then come back and report it and never be seen again. In other
words, they would go somewhere else but they were new there. And so, if we dressed up in some
mood, we had to go to accoutrements to confirm that. So, they came in town and introduced
themselves and got to know people. And they were inspectors maybe of farm land or some
agriculture or something off the wall. And they had enough information on it to be believable.
And so, they just looked like everybody else and they spoke their lingo to a point. It really wasn’t
that important for what they were going to do. So…But they wanted to keep up with current
events. But they had sensitivities that I didn’t know about. You shut an area off, I found out later
when I got in the infantry, we’d shut down an area and bring in 25 helicopters. And you needed a
certain area. Or 10 at a time, whatever. Well anyway, they ended up dropping a pretty big unit in
�33
the area. That unit was…that could be a battalion of 500 or a brigade of 2000. And they dropped
a brigade in there. (01:14:10)
Interviewer: Right. Okay, so they were doing kind of advanced scouting for you,
essentially?
Veteran: That’s—oh, well…advanced infiltration of the local community for intelligence
purposes.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So now…So, you have the field exercises periodically. Now,
what played out when the Cuban Missile Crisis happened? How did that effect things for
your base or your unit?
Veteran: Right. What we did is we went on alert and I stayed in the—I stayed at Fort Hood. And
we briefed. We had briefings in the Pentagon. Not—we weren’t involved but they called up all
of our lieutenants and all of us had to become good at something quickly. And then, we’d get
almost the same kind of information. But we were doing: we’d interpret the photo interpretations
of all the vessels on the high seas that were coming from Russia. And then we’d run our U-2
pilots over Cuba more than once a day. And we’d compare what is going—see what is going on.
Very time sensitive. And they would be marked up quickly. And then that transposed to our
organization. So, I had general officers coming to Fort Hood and other general officers going to
the Pentagon. So, east went there and west came to us. And so, we briefed a forward divisions,
commanding generals, and that kind of stuff. And also, some of the uplying, higher level general
officers. And some of these guys had been in World War 2 and all that kind of stuff and they
could really see between us. So, we didn’t make many mistakes; they would catch them and
make sure they were saying the right kind of things. So, we briefed them all during that time. In
�34
the meantime—I don’t know if America knew this or not, maybe they did, but we stationed both
of our armored divisions in a tactical posture in Texas. We also stationed, and I wasn’t aware—I
didn’t get in the ground on this one—we also had several airwings postured the same way.
That’s just in Texas. And then we had our two airborne divisions in Florida and the
communications between the two. And we knew that President Kennedy was getting some
advice and we were hoping that we weren’t going to go to war but we knew what we needed to
do and so we’d do it. (01:16:56)
Veteran: We had also—I didn’t know that but I learned later—that a lot of Cubans had been
coming here and they had been trained to do things. And the fighter pilots in country, that were
friendly to keeping it a free country, were also available to come to the war…the beach? Or
whatever you want to call that whole Battle of Pigs. Whatever it is called. Area. So that was all
set up and when you—when they attacked and the President cancelled our operation so we stood
down. We were in—I was still physically in Fort Hood. And the folks in Florida stood down.
And so, the Cubans that went in got wiped out pretty much. They had no air cover because we
cancelled all of that. Because we could have really put them in a back brace. And so, I don’t
know what that saved. Did that save World War 3? I am not sure. But I do know that the Soviet
ships turned around and went back. We had such a fine relationship with Cuba. That was not a
problem. But when the Russians got in there, they turned it into a problem for us. So, that’s
something we were very sensitive about, even today. So… (01:18:27)
Interviewer: Alright. But basically, when a lot of this was going down, your unit was
involved in a lot of the intelligence work and preparations for what the military response
would be if we had one.
�35
Veteran: And we kept organized what the fleets were doing and what they were doing on the
ground. Because they had a missile capability that could have reached the United States. At least,
that’s what we were told. And so we’d watch. And what they would do: they moved the stuff that
could hit us out and then they put them in their shelters. So, we watched them every day while
they are doing all that stuff. So, they kept structurally changing it. Threat level now is X; it is
now going back to Y. And so—and the Pentagon and us, we did the same thing. And basically,
all of our sea, air, and ground forces were all informed, because we had a lot of stuff at sea at the
same time, as you know. But during that time…During that time, I put in a request—because I
was being coached by Lieutenant Colonel Rose and also his applying to put in a request to
become a regular Army officer. So, I wouldn’t be reserve, I’d be rifted. And so, I went up for
interviews and I lived at 209 Dunn Street in Killeen, Texas. And so, when I—I was briefed by
the 1-star, whatever he had to say, and then I had audience with Lieutenant General Dunn. And
he laughed. He said, “You live on my street.” He was laughing at me and all that stuff.
(01:20:07)
Veteran: And when he had one of his parties—he’d have a party every year—he made it a
point…He and his wife—his was wife was miss straightforward. She was wearing—here is the
commanding general of 3rd Corps Armored biggest unit in town, and he’s running around and his
wife is wearing a cotton dress that has got flowers on it. Very down to earth. And he hunted me
down, he embarrassed everyone around me. He said, “I want to meet you because you are one of
my commanders.” He went down…He didn’t care who you were. You commanded a chicken
food, he went down to see the chicken food commander. So, he was very personable. Very
personable. (01:20:47)
�36
Veteran: So, I don’t know what he did but it was strong enough to get me into orders to move in
November, 1963 from Fort Hood to Fort Benning, Georgia and to get my infantry training.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, had you made that move when Kennedy was assassinated? Or
did that come while you were still in Texas?
Veteran: I was on the road. On the 23rd of November, 1963 I drove just south of Dallas, Texas. I
forget what highway I was on? I think it was 10 and I was heading east. I pulled into a gas
station. And this is terrible. See? Burned in my mind. I pulled into a gas station to tank up. I was
driving a Volkswagen bus with my family: wife and 3 children. And somebody said, “Somebody
shot and killed the president,” or “Somebody shot the president.” I said, “Well, it couldn’t
happen to a nicer guy.” I said, “That’s a stupid thing for somebody to say. Why would they want
to say a nasty thing about our president? He’s our leader, he’s commander in chief.” And I get in
the car. I was furious. And I drove to the motel and it was on there. I just—my heart just went
ahh. So, when I arrived in Fort Hood, we lived—we were some place, a hotel or whatever—
everything was shut down for a number of days as you know. (01:22:15)
Interviewer: And you arrived at Fort Benning?
Veteran: Yeah, I drove right to Columbus and I got in some place. The Army put me in some
kind of a hotel situation until I found a place I could rent downtown. And but—everything shut
down. Everything was shut down. And so, we went through that whole process of grieving. My
wife is German. She didn’t understand a lot of that but she knew that that was problematic. She
just didn’t understand it. My kids? They were too young to understand anything. So, that was
how dare them? How dare anybody do that? And that turned out to be—so, I did some research
on that sometime later and…But that? I don’t know how you would prevent that kind of thing.
�37
And that’s what I am concerned about: what we’ve got now. We’ve got to keep our president, as
we did him, in prayer every day.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, eventually you get into Fort Benning and you can start picking
up what you are supposed to be doing. So, what is the assignment there?
Veteran: Okay, I was as a—I was a first lieutenant because I had enough time and grade to make
first lieutenant. And I moved into the first battalion airborne, 188th infantry regiment, winged
attack. And the 11th air assault division, which was a training division. It was training in air
mobile concepts. The generals of the World War 2 were trying to figure out how can we move
people and keep them organized and still have the ability and flexibility to move them quickly?
There’s no—historically speaking—there is no successful airborne operation of any size. Small
units but not—they always get scattered all over the place. That is why they had these clickers in
Normandy. (01:24:09)
Veteran: So, they wanted to eliminate that problem. So, what they did? They formed this—I
think the 11th Airborne Division was called back on active duty, because they had come out of
Europe, and made an air assault. And…But everybody—the generals—were all airborne
operators. They knew the things there. But they experimented with helicopters. And then they
kept getting them smaller and smaller where we could fly everybody in helicopters and we could
either jump out of them on the ground, jump out of them in parachutes, or in some of them, you
could hover and you’d come down in a ladder. All kinds of ways of doing it. And so, I got into
there and I was the executive officer for B Company, 1st Battalion, 188th Infantry Regiment. And
that was—they were physically in Harmony Church within the Fort Benning complex. So, I
started there and then I went through…The orientation I had to go through officer infantry school
first. Now, I had been there as an enlisted man, you know, when I was in Missouri at Fort
�38
Leonard Wood. So, this is essentially the same thing, only it had some different kinds of twists
and changes. And they—I remember one situation I thought I blew. You had to make decisions
on stuff, on crossing areas that were what they called danger areas. They had a little water there
so if you made the wrong decision, you would fall in the water. And so, they changed it around
real quick, moved us around when we were in that. And if you made the wrong decision, they
would say well, you just got shot in the head Harry, or lieutenant, or whatever they called us.
You’re in charge now. And I had one that I couldn’t figure out what to do. I usually had a team
concept and but I—get it done. (01:26:12)
Veteran: And so, the poor guy fell in the water. So, my briefing was when I got with the sergeant
and whoever it was that was evaluating what I was doing. I just raked him over the coals. I raked
him over the coals. I was not prepared and I don’t care to admit that. I think that is important to
know. This is new. I have been…I have had assignments before that are a lot more dangerous
than this. And if they fell in the water, they were dead. They were killed or hurt or something.
And so, I just smoked him. Maybe I got a point on that because I got through that course. And I
went back to the company and I found out all the officers were either West Point or officer
candidate. You know, cum laude. And here’s this triple bang who is a direct commission
mustang and I don’t know anything and I still don’t have a college education. And I am in B
company. Well, the B company commander there was very straight and he was rigid straight.
Hard to do anything with. But he was consistent on certain things you need to do. so, I focused
on those. As the administrator, I tried to take a lot of the administrator harassment off his back.
He had a drunk that would make PFC and get busted the next month because he went out and got
drunk. So, I fixed that problem. Nobody talked to anybody where they lived. Why do you do this
or what’s going on? They didn’t get into that. And what do you have to offer? This guy was a
�39
baker. And he used to get up at 2 in the morning and he would bake his stuff that the military
police in the cantonment area would drive out to test it for us before we got there at 6:30 after
our 5 mile run. And so we made—military police were our friends in B company mess hall. So,
what we did to fix him: we’d pay him. Every pay day, he’d show up. We’d take all his money
away. We would drive him downtown to a nice hotel. We would pay his bill and his food and his
alcohol and leave. And Monday morning, we’d pick him up again, bring him out, wash him up,
put him back in the dining facility and he was there until the next pay day. (01:28:37)
Veteran: And he made corporal. And it stuck. But they didn’t know how to communicate with
him. I thought that was far better than the way—the straight way to handle them is just to drag
him out of the service. But he made friends. And later on, I will tell you what happened in
combat because of what he did.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, do you start working and using helicopters and things? Is this
part of what you’re going to be doing once you’re with a unit? Or…?
Veteran: Yeah, even though I was executive officer, I had to jump off a 44-foot tower, I had to
jump out of a helicopter hovering 120-feet off the ground, 90-feet off the ground.
Interviewer: If you’re jumping off from 120-feet up, do you climb down something or just
free fall?
Veteran: No, you’re on two—for safety purposes—you’re on two ropes.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And it’s a certain kind of a new—or whatever it is—it’s a mixed material. I can’t
remember what it is but it was very strong. It could hold 3000 pounds, each one. So, we’d double
�40
hook them into the helicopter. We had 4 guys or 8, depending on what’s going on. And you got 4
out on the…On the…
Interviewer: On the runners? Or…?
Veteran: Yeah. On the runners there or whatever. Yeah. But anyway, so at that time, you go.
And you go together because otherwise the helicopter would go crazy. And then if there is more
on there, then you hook—you hook them up. But anyway, the idea was once you jump—maybe
it was just 4 when we did this. You had one guy that was a crew chief and what he would do,
we’d be hooked in there with these things that you use in mountain climbing and all that stuff.
He unhooked that and that would come down to us. (01:30:36)
Veteran: So, we would have to collect the rope and take off. If we were in a combat situation,
that was important because we didn’t want the enemy to get ahold of that stuff because it was
still good and we could use it for any numbers. We could put…trip people coming after us or
something else. Or get rid of it. So, I had to go through that. And then later on, we had these
helicopters; the chinooks had rotors at the front and the back. And we would hover and you’d
come down on a ladder that’s maybe 60-feet or so off the deck. And that means you—we
could—if we were in a area that was had a lot of foliage, you could get in the foliage that way.
You could get through and then you would drop the ladder because it would hook up the air—the
helicopter and mess it up. I was a safety officer on some training. Our cav unit—we had a—9th
cav was in there and they were fighters. They were like infantry that had all kinds of stuff that
they could do. And they had their helicopters were part of the program, part of their organization.
So, we—I trained with them and helped them do well. And that was a real responsibility and a
delight to do. We got to known the folks in Columbus. They got to live with us and when we get
back from some of our exercises—we went to the Carolinas to do that too—and that’s where my
�41
connection from my 3rd corps days paid off because the Marines showed up right away and they
said, “Okay, how can I help you?” So, they tried to help us. And we didn’t win any battles. I’ll
tell you that. We didn’t win anything because that’s when the 5th armored came in—the 5th
mechanized came in—and we couldn’t defeat them. (01:32:37)
Veteran: But the intelligence was helpful for us because at least we had an idea of what we were
against. And what we did…we could hide. And we could be in some place they couldn’t find us.
And can you imagine a large infantry unit with helicopters, trying to hide? And what we would
do is we would get our chemical unit out there and they’d build a... this ground fog. And you
couldn’t find us. And it would just sit there; it wouldn’t go anywhere. Just sit there. And we just
wouldn’t move, wouldn’t communicate. You know, radio silence. And we did to some level but
we didn’t get—we didn’t pull any stunts. We couldn’t do any funny things. When we got—
sometimes we would get captured. And so, we would be very careful with…Because they—
some of them got rough with us. They shouldn’t—we are American soldiers. So, I got after them
on that too. And didn’t make any friends but I didn’t get hurt and that was good. But we couldn’t
have that. And you know, that was it. Those were straightforward, strictly infantry stuff. And I
did everything: I reported the wounded in action and all that stuff. I got that training while I was
out in the Carolinas because we had to go through that process of what do you do? And so, that
was excellent. So then, our commanders changed. The West Pointer left and another guy came in
and he was OCS, officer candidate school officer, but he had been in Vietnam. (01:34:20)
Veteran: Very successful. Name was Livingston. And he trained us combat action drills. So,
when something would happen, it was scenario number 1 alpha or something, whatever, we got
that, we could get it down like that. So, it depends on if we were ambushed, we would do
something. If it were some kind of a passing thing and we were overpowered, we would do
�42
something else, call in help. If it was a long-range reconnaissance of finding something and
hiding out and being still and don’t let anyone run over us but report what they are doing. That
kind of thing. So, we went through all of that and I had to do that too, right with them. I walked
in the swamps in Fort Stewart with the mortar platoon. And I wasn’t good at it because I couldn’t
carry the big stuff but I carried whatever I could. And sometimes I would be with my own—the
mortar platoon, you have your infantry platoons up here moving forward in front of you.
Interviewer: Alright. Well, I think we were talking about you have joined your battalion
now with what is now the 11th Air Assault Division—
Veteran: The Air Assault Division.
Interviewer: Right. Okay. And you were kind of talking about some of the different things
that you had done with them and are there other pieces of that story at your first stage as
you’re first kind of learning the ropes and working with these guys? (01:36:18)
Veteran: Yeah, learning how to become an infantry officer. When I was in the Army working in
the intelligence service, sometimes I wore civilian clothes. I mostly wore a uniform but then
again, it was more casual. In some cases, we had some serious things where people got hurt.
Some of them disappeared, that kind of thing. Of course, I don’t have a whole lot of detail on it
anyway. But here it is a regiment and they have rules and regulations that we complied with and
here whatever I was working on, those didn’t apply. You just did your job. So, here I am in the
infantry and so I got in and there was 180 men in that bravo company at that time. And that’s
average. And so, I had a really tough, sharp first sergeant. And I didn’t know what to do with
anything. And but I knew how to where a uniform. So, I got that part right. So, what the noncommissioned officers did by and by: they trained me how to become a good, strong leader as an
�43
infantry officer. And I needed to have the technical stuff done well. So, that means I learned how
to fire all the—everything. All the weapons. I didn’t have—I did, I fired the mortar. Boom! You
know, the tube. But all the weapons I could take them apart, even in the dark. Every hand gun
and rifle and stuff like that. Machine gun. (01:38:02)
Veteran: And so, they taught me that and they taught me tactics and how to communicate those
kinds of things. They also in Harmony Church, right next to the Ranger department. The Ranger
department trains everybody in the United States Army, that wants to and qualifies, the Ranger
techniques of warfare. That’s the officer and enlisted personnel. So, these guys were all Ranger
airborne, jungle experts and had been in airborne units a long time. Some of them had been in
airborne units a long time although we were not airborne. The unit was airborne but we were not
at the time commissioned as that function. And but anyway, just like I mentioned to you before
about how my shiny boots getting attention? Well, when we had our annual—you had field
inspections and they had maintenance inspections annually. And a company commander could
rise well with superb reports, so I knew how to work those. And so, I got with the supply people
and my supply sergeant hoarded all the brand-new stuff. Look how wonderful my supply room
looks? And he was a senior, non-commissioned officer and I respected him but I said, “It’s the
worst one I have ever seen.” And so, within a week, he had all the clean blankets that had been
repaired and all the new stuff they had on the shelves was with the troops as it should be. If
something breaks, you replace it. Okay, so I got that squared away and all his books reported
all—everything I just said. (01:40:05)
Veteran: We did that up front, properly. Then, took on the armory. The armory is a place where
you can lose your can in an inspection. And so, what we did there is everybody had to do what I
did. You clean your weapon, you make it right, turn it in at the armory, armorer and I had two
�44
armorers in there and they were really sharp corporals. And they did the best job they could and I
gave them breaks and extra plaudits and, you know, whatever. Good benefits at the mess hall.
And so, they did an excellent job in keeping us squared away. And then, one of the things I
found out about security: you could break into that place without a whole lot of effort. So, I put
double breaks. I also doubled the walls. The walls were built with an outside but I built an
internal inside. So, you break the outside wall off, it’s going to take a month of Sundays to get
further beyond that point. So, the walls themselves became fortresses and the windows and
doors, you would need unsettling force to get through to the armory. So, we got that done. And I
remember one time we had a field inspection or maintenance…I am sorry: a maintenance
inspection coming up and so I don’t know who was thinking this through but this was a brigade
sized unit. We were a brigade, so 3 battalions, so we were going to go out and do something and
another battalion was going to go out and so forth, rotating around, and so each one had their
time. Our time landed when we had this maintenance, annual maintenance, inspection coming.
The other battalions didn’t have that problem but nobody could change that. Of course, I was not
happy with that. So, what we did—the sergeant’s—when I came to my sergeant, E-6s—they
were all squad leaders. They had 10 men that worked for them and they did things right and they
were sharp. And so, a couple of them, about 3 or 4 of them, got ahold of me and said—so, we sat
down and had coffee with nobody around us. He says, “We are going to take you down to the
Ranger school department. And they have equipment and they also have the instructors and all
that fun stuff. And what we are going to do is we are going to get a table of organizational and
equipment issued of all our weapons.” (01:42:44)
Veteran: “Okay.” “Now, what we need you to do, Mr. XO, executive officer, we want you to
appoint, and we will give you the names, 6 men to be on vacation out of town during these days
�45
that we are out in the field. And when we come back. Actually when—mostly when we come
back so they are out of the field to start with and they are still in this area in our compound.”
Alright. So, we went out to our exercise with those weapons and they worked fine. And so then
when we came back, when the guys came back into the cantonment area, these 6 guys were there
and they each collected by serial number every one of those weapons. Machine guns, mortars,
you name it; whatever we had. And drove them down to the Ranger department and they spent 6
days cleaning them. The inspectors came by and one of my corporals was there for the inspection
to salute and open the place up. And they went through and they couldn’t get dust off anything
because he spent the time that was climatized—to climatize the facility for that event. (01:44:06)
Veteran: And we passed. They thought it was amazing. Everybody else was all messed up. There
was a little bit of goo here and this is stuck here. This didn’t work over there and all that stuff.
So, they couldn’t—they never did—I don’t think they found out how we did that. They probably
thought we were cheating. Yeah right. So anyway, that was the first lesson I got from them. And
so that was very helpful. As far as when the annual—part of that—I guess they went to the
supply room and gave him high marks. Oh man, this is the way all supply rooms should look. It
serves the company and the personnel and yet its up to date, it is current, its clean, its orderly, all
the books are—and your supply sergeant is sharp looking. Puerto Rican. He was great but he was
a hoarder so we had to watch that. Then also during the inspection, inspector general’s annual
inspection, where they went through the barracks and all that stuff? We had two guys that had
emergency leave and they had to leave for two days with one of my deuce and a halfs because
they had no transportation. In that deuce and a half was all of our paraphernalia, our junk, and
whatever else that we shouldn’t have. And that—they drove—I don’t know where they went. I
had no idea. So, we got through there and then everything was fine, inspections were laid out
�46
fine, floors were fine. There was no extra stuff because usually you would have a little something
extra and it doesn’t fit in your locker, you just lay it against the wall. So, all of that was gone,
including the headquarters where I was. So, that worked out. And so, we did that kind of stuff.
And the other thing we did for morale, which the other companies never thought about, well we
used to go on 15-mile marches, forced march, and they’d have pretty much their combat gear
with them. That gets heavy after a while. And I had a Volkswagen bus I told you about I came
back with from Germany. So, what I used to do: I’d go to B company and I’d get these—I’d get
the—I’d get these coffee urns with 100 cups of coffee in it, or whatever it had, and then I had all
these little…I had these bakery items that our baker made that morning. I had lots of them.
(01:46:28)
Veteran: So, what we would do is we would go out there and I’d get ahead of the—they are
coming down the road like this so I would get ahead of them, I’d stop, and as the troops would
walk by, we’d hand them a coffee and a pastry and then a coffee and a pastry, coffee…And then
when they got past us, we’d go in front of the line and pick all of that trash up and they’d leave
and then I had a truck behind them go up to the next formation and do the same thing until we
got the company done. All hundred and whatever that was out there. So, that was really—that
was a morale builder. So, the battalion said, “Boy, that’s nice. We got to—” So, we had to
expand that to help the battalion do that too. So, we did that. So, that was fun. And of course, we
made friends with the military police because they had gotten very close to us because they
would sample our stuff around after midnight. And so, they helped us out when things got kind
of stuffed. One of the problems I had—I’m a Talmadge—and one of the problems—Talmadges
are fine in general but you had little groups that are in the south, little groups in the north, little
groups in the west. And sometimes those little groups of Talmadges get in trouble. Or they cause
�47
trouble. And one of the things that I had to fight was the racial business. The difference in
Georgia between a black man and a white man, or such. Now when we went on one of our
maneuvers, we took everybody, told them we would have this inspection waiting for us. But we
went out and had to have our formations and understand a quick response to different scenarios
that we’d be exposed to and hit hard and be evaluated on it and then maybe do it again and again
until we get it down, then wait a while—a month or two—and do it again and see what we
remember. (01:48:27)
Veteran: One of these times we were getting ready. And we were going to be gone—this was one
of those Carolina things—we were going to go for maybe a month. And so, one of my NCOs has
his vehicle and I noticed his headlight was out. And so, I said, “Okay, I want two of you guys,”
because they are black guys, “I want two in case I needed a witness.” And I didn’t know I
needed a witness. Drove downtown. Got a phone call; Sergeant Jones. “Lieutenant, I am in jail.
Come get me.” “Okay Jones, I am on the way.” So, I went down there and sure enough, Jones
and his buddy were in jail because Jones’ car’s light was burned out. So, I talked to the desk
sergeant. I said, “Sergeant, I am Lieutenant Talmadge. I am executive officer of rifle company
and these two men work for me. I gave them a direct order to come down and get that car fixed.”
He said, “You’re darn tootin’, lieutenant, and we got them. And what do you want?” I said, “I
want them out now.” I says, “You can’t have them.” I said, “May I have your phone please?
Here, just bring your phone over here. Put it right here because I am going to call my Uncle
Herman. Uncle Herman is the governor of Georgia. He’s also a brigadier general in the Georgia
National Guard and he’s my uncle. I am his favorite nephew. Give me this phone.” He said, “Just
a minute, please.” Chief of police came out and said, “Sir, when would you like them out?” So, I
walked out of the place with those sergeants and I told them, “You guys, you flatheads! What’s
�48
wrong with you? Getting in trouble with those police like that. You should treat them with
respect. Afterall, they are white people.” And we got in the car and drove off laughing. Well, that
should have never happened. (01:50:12)
Interviewer: Of course not.
Veteran: Because those same guys were with me in combat. Because shortly thereafter—shortly
thereafter there was an order that came out to us. We were in the field training locally and we
had to come in from the field because our order—our division was going to turn in their colors
and we were going to be appointed as the 1st Cavalry Air Mobile. And so, Mother Dorcy came
out and accepted the flag and all that stuff and what she said and we hugged her and we thanked
the Lord for her and all that, whatever we did to her, because she is the mother of the 1st cav.
And so, we did that on 1 July, 1965. So then, we had to get ready for our combat assignment. We
didn’t know where we were going. And if they did, I can’t—I don’t know what it was. It was in
Vietnam. That’s all I knew. So then, they selected some folks to be the advanced party. Oh,
advanced party? Hmm. Wonder what they do. I don’t know. Nobody ever trained me in that. So,
what they did: they took all of the executive officers of anything, including a 1 star general. And
they sent the 1 star general and about 2500 of us over there in August of 1965. And we flew out
of Georgia and we landed at San Francisco. I was able to say goodbye to my brother and my
mother who lived there. And then, we continued on to Hawaii, to Guam, and then into Vietnam.
And that’s where the 5th—the 3rd Marines were located there. They were located there and we
stayed there for a couple days. (01:52:22)
Interviewer: That might have been Da Nang?
�49
Veteran: Yes, thank you. I forgot that. So, we were there for—we had no idea what was going
on. We were still in our nice, clean—you know, ironed—jungle fatigues. They weren’t jungle,
they were regular fatigues. Whatever…dungarees or not dungarees but they were the old, old
field—
Interviewer: Were they greens or khakis or—
Veteran: Yeah, they were greens. Khakis and greens. But greens. So, and we had leather boots
and all that stuff. So, we finally flew into An Khê. It was a short strip. It was owned by a rubber
plantation owner and wealthy man. The mansion was still there. You had the airfield that ran in
front of it. And we could—that one C-130 could land on there very nicely without going off the
end of it. And there was about 60 of us in there for the whole time we left Georgia. You either
sat, stood, or laid on the deck to make up the time because it was a very demanding flight.
Nonetheless, our executive officer was a major promoted to lieutenant colonel. He was a very
kindly gentleman but tough. And our commanding officer was a guy by the name of Ken
Martell. He was an aviator, a very accomplished soldier. I don’t know if he was West Point or
not but he was one of the rising officers in this process of air mobility. (01:54:08)
Veteran: So, he just—a sharp career, a lot of neat things. So, he was our commanding officer.
We didn’t get to know him until—because he came on board when we got anointed as the 1st
cav. So, we were in Vietnam for that month of August pretty much by ourself and into the first
part or two weeks of September. And there was a brigade of the 101st airborne that was our
sheltering organization. They provided us security, they fed us, did everything. Helped us set up
a water point so we could go get our little showers and generally trying to teach us how to be
safe. And the reason I say that is because some nights—some nights we’d get a sniper shooting
at us and if for some reason we wouldn’t have had automatic, every other bullet or every 5th one
�50
was marked so you could actually look at it. So, you get down and they taught us how to react to
that. But don’t do any shooting. You don’t shoot anything; they take care of that, because we
might shoot one of them accidentally. So, we did that and that was fine. And then we found out
what our job is. And the 1 star got out and he gave us this rollicking speech that we are going to
stop the communists here. They are trying to come, stepping stones across the Pacific and
eventually get us in our homeland so we are going to stop them right here in this Indochinese
area. Okay fine, general. Great. What are we going to do tomorrow? So, tomorrow we showed
up and they suggested wear a hat to cover our eyes because it was going to be bright out. We are
going to work all day and so we had our green little fatigues on, whatever you want to call those
things and our leather shoes, boots. And so, this big guy, he must have outranked the general or
something…Well anyways, whatever rank he was, he must have been really up there because he
showed up and he is from the corps of engineers. And he’s going to show us what to do today.
And so, he explained the layout of the facility and one large area had to be cleaned and we—
“They should have sent privates but they sent you all so you’re going to have to learn how to
clear the area so you can land 453 helicopters.” Or whatever. (01:56:40)
Veteran: So, we went out there that day and we worked out tails off. He made sure we had water
breaks and he was up there checking our work and make sure we go down there and get it right.
And then we had some Vietnamese go with us. They probably worked with us in the daytime and
were Viet Cong at night. I have a picture: I was standing with my Viet Cong buddy. He had one
of these—I still have my bamboo whatever…machete. But anyway, he worked us like dogs. I
mean, it was a long day. We were all dragging and sweating and then we took off our shirts and
the t-shirts were all wet. So, finally we put our shirts back on, he put his t-shirt on and we all
looked at him—we just about fell over—he was a corporal. And he had all of us driving—he
�51
drove us nuts. And he just—I don’t know where he went. We didn’t see him again but he was
sent probably to get some other group going. But he knew what he was doing. We didn’t know
what he was doing. All of us had calluses. We didn’t have any gloves. So, we did that and we did
that and did that. And they had bulldozers and all kinds of stuff. And where we had our tents
near the airfield. One side of the airfield we had the tents, then you had the airfield, then you had
some more…it had a blank area, then you had the river, the Bong Son River. (01:58:05)
Veteran: So, we had to walk across the airstrip and across this open field to get down to the river.
And so, this big black guy—I assigned everybody a buddy and I said, “You’re not my buddy.
You’re my body guard. So, we are not buddies. None of this chummy-chummy stuff.” He was a
neat guy. I forget where he came from but he was a very personable gentleman. He was a…he
was in the fire team so he was very good with a rifle. Very good with a rifle. So, we were out
there together. So, I walk with him across the field and next to the mansion and while he was
bathing, I had my rifle. I had ammunition and I was ready. So, I’d be looking around my little
sector. And the defense was way down here. I wasn’t going to shoot anybody but the defense
was—they really had to watch the river and watch us. But I watched for him and then when I got
my little bath while he did the same thing. And then we’d come back, walk across that area. So,
we did that for a couple of days. Then about the third or fourth day, all of a sudden, the area was
cordoned off and it was bulldozered with these thrashers in front of it. And every time they hit a
bouncing betty, it would pump up about this high and go off and it would hit an area about 30
meters out. And had one of those things going off with this gentleman and myself, we’d have
been dead. We walked across that time and all of us did. For 2 or 3 days. And they finally
figured out. So, they got them all. They got rid of all that stuff. They just kept doing—and it
would rock the machine and then they’d adjust it and then they’d go continue on. So, we did that
�52
for…well, whatever it took us. And then they finished that up. Then…Oh, I was up at night.
There is always something to do at night. I don’t know what it is, but they had something for us
to do at night. We had movies at night. And even the Viet Cong watched the movies. And then
every once in a while, they would shoot at it. (02:00:27)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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TalmadgeR2152V1
Creator
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Talmadge, Roger S.
Date
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2017-09
Title
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Talmadge, Roger (Interview transcript and video, part 1), 2017
Description
An account of the resource
Roger Talmadge was born in Glen Ridge, New Jersey on October 16th, 1937. He joined the Navy Reserve on October 23rd, 1954, at the age of 17. Roger completed basic training and boot camp at Wold-Chamberlain Naval Air Station, where he also received training to become a certified electronics technician so that he could work on navigational equipment. During his time in the Navy Reserve, Roger also helped with recruiting. He then joined the Army and became an intelligence officer. He completed 3 months of basic training for the Army at Fort Leonard Wood in Missouri. Roger then completed an additional 3 months of intelligence training in 1957 at Fort Holabird. He became an order of battle specialist. Roger was transferred to Germany in June 1957. He was first assigned to the 7th United States Army with the 525th MI battalion for a short time and then joined the 207th MI detachment. Roger did a lot of crypto work while in the intelligence service in Germany. He also worked in the debriefing interrogation section. He received a direct commission in 1962 and worked as a deputy executive officer. Roger then came to Fort Hood, Texas, to the 203rd MI detachment as a second lieutenant of the military intelligence. He moved to Fort Benning, Georgia, in November of 1963 to receive infantry training. He became a first lieutenant and was the executive officer for B company, 1st battalion, 188th infantry regiment. Roger went to Vietnam in 1965.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953—Personal narratives, American
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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In Copyright
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Moving Image
Text
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c1c4311f80fd91c87c8f6df7c4fe518e.mp4
fd90bd5780920385eb90fde8c63b63c4
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a832471d08964179a01a9da0de3e357d.pdf
a9172b9d8f95408ed38b1c237b1b205d
PDF Text
Text
Rowland, Daniel
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Iraq War
Interviewee’s Name: Daniel Rowland
Length of Interview: (1:09:57)
Interviewed by: Koty Leroy Rollins
Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman
Interviewer: “I’m here with Daniel Rowland from Comstock Park and the interviewer is
Koty Leroy Rollins of the Grand Valley State Veterans History Project. Alright Daniel let’s
just jump into this, when were you born and where at?”
Well I was born in Grand Rapids in 1975, July time frame, at least that’s what my parents told
me, they could be wrong I don’t know.
Interviewer: “You never know. So what was your early life like? What–” (00:57)
Ah pretty mundane, I mean pretty common, went to school, grew up, had an older brother who
liked to, you know be an older brother we’ll just leave it at that. Nothing too exciting.
Interviewer: “Alright, when did you enlist and what led you to that choice?”
My brother had enlisted in the Marine Corps and I’m like “Oh that’s cool.” Then I– The sad fact
was I actually applied for an ROTC scholarship and got a full ride to North Carolina State
University and my lack of discipline led me to drop out and enlist.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you enlisted after spending how much time in college?”
Three semesters, cause apparently if you go to college on the government’s dime and don’t
finish, you owe them money, or you enlist.
�Rowland, Daniel
Interviewer: “Sounds about right, did your brother like, tell you all these cool stories, did
he prep you for boot camp or anything?”
Nah, he only went in about a year and a half before me, I mean he told me things but in
retrospect I think he was just messing with me.
Interviewer: “What type of things did he tell you then?”
Oh it’s not that hard, it’s fun and you know typical big brother taunting the little brother things as
you follow his footsteps. That makes it not as enjoyable as one would think.
Interviewer: “Okay, so what was boot camp like then were you prepared for it at all?”
In general yeah I mean it’s not– Physically it wasn’t that hard but you know coming from three
semesters in ROTC I kind of already knew the drill of stuff. (2:30) So this is gonna sound self
aggrandizing to a certain extent but like I think it was about two weeks in they made me the
guide for the platoon and I ended up doing that because I already knew a lot of the stuff like
ranks and all that because like I said the three semester in ROTC kind of gave me a head start on
everything that they teach you, common Marine Corps history, Navy ranks, Marine Corps ranks,
how to march, of course that might of been nine years of marching band too but either way– I
was a geek.
Interviewer: “So you were pretty prepared.”
For the general knowledge and physical aptitude but I’m sure as you know being a former Navy
is– No matter how much you know being prepared is not as easy as it sounds especially when
you’re the guide, somebody messes up you get punished.
Interviewer: “And stepping back just a little bit one thing I forgot to ask, did you have any
family history of military or were you and your brother like the first.”
�Rowland, Daniel
I had an uncle serve in Vietnam but he died there and I never knew him so I couldn’t say, and
then my other uncle was in the Air Force for two years but he went to Germany, came home and
he had some pretty weird stories but we won’t go there, Germans are weird apparently.
Interviewer: “Yeah, so it was just you and your brother then for the most part?”
Yeah from the immediate family, nobody– Yeah, nobody else I knew served, I know my dad
tried but got 4Fed cause bad feet or something and then I know my grandpa tried and “We need
you home!” World War II but nobody– Nobody seemed to be able to get in until me and my
brother.
Interviewer: “Fair enough, now when you say 4F you mean like medically.”
Right, yeah between his eyes and his feet I guess they didn’t want him. Back then– They weren’t
as accepting back then of medical– Of any little medical condition where nowadays anybody–
Cause they can fix most things, here have some new shoes. (4:22)
Interviewer: “So going back to the boot camp thing you said you were the guide, was that
like the leader of the cadets or what was that?”
Yeah, I don’t know what did they call it. Yeah it’s you’re the head recruit, I guess you could say
“in charge” but you really weren’t, you were pretty much the top– You’re pretty much who the
drill instructors told to get stuff done and who to delegate.
Interviewer: “And you were the one that got in trouble when someone else messed up.”
Oh yeah, there were mornings I would be up before the rest of the platoon getting thrashed
because someone messed up during the night or something, I don’t know, I don’t remember.
Interviewer: “When you say getting thrashed do you mean like PT or like–”
�Rowland, Daniel
Yeah, no they don’t– They were not allowed physical contact but they could make you run in
place, do push ups, there were four exercises, funnel kicks, push ups, run in place, don’t
remember the fourth one off the top of my head but basically you did it until your arms were
jelly and you couldn’t do anything else.
Interviewer: “And this was in ‘95?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay.”
I’m sure they still kind of do– I mean it was the Marine Corps, you gotta be hard ass I guess
would be the term nowadays.
Interviewer: “So pretty much everything else other than that you were good at, you knew.”
(5:35)
I wouldn’t say “good at” but I knew enough to not have to, you know worry about it, how's that
sound.
Interviewer: “Did you have any issues with the other recruits, I know sometimes they don’t
take–”
Well being the guide yeah sometimes like you’d have the one they just couldn’t get anything
right or was moving too slow and you either had to help them out or get trashed more, I was in
pretty good shape when I got out of boot camp.
Interviewer: “Alright so when– Once you graduated boot camp what did you move onto?”
�Rowland, Daniel
Marine combat training which is three weeks of just basic cause every Marine is a rifleman so
we had to basically go somewhere and spend three weeks in the field and living in tents and
walking through woods, nothing amazing.
Interviewer: “Nothing fun happened there?”
Well one time it rained so hard that we had to come back from out of the field, when we went
back the next day finding all our gear in the mud was fun. Yeah it was out in California, oh joy
oh joy.”
Interviewer: “So it was out in California.”
Yeah it was the one with flashlights, I think it was I don’t know.
Interviewer: “So you– Where did you go to boot camp at?” (6:42)
San Diego, I was a Hollywood Marine as they call it.
Interviewer: “So you went all the way from Michigan to San Diego for boot camp?”
Yep and I came home for ten days, went back out to Camp Pendleton for the combat training.
Interviewer: “Alright, and where’d you go after that?”
Went to North Carolina for my job training, which I was initially an administrative clerk, yay. I
know right I got to learn how to type.
Interviewer: “That’s fun.”
And file things.
�Rowland, Daniel
Interviewer: “So nothing exciting happened there?”
Well it was kind of fun, my brother was stationed at Camp Lejeune and when everybody else had
to stay on the base when we got there I got to leave for the weekend and it really pissed people
off because, you know reasons and then well I ended up meeting– I ended up getting married at a
job training, I met a female Marine that was going to school as well, let’s just say that didn’t end
well but I’ll just leave that at that.
Interviewer: “Fair enough.”
What if we’re gonna talk about it might as well just throw it all out there right?
Interviewer: “Hey, it’s your story.”
Then I drove cross country and went to Hawaii for three and a half years. (7:50)
Interviewer: “Why did you have to drive cross country?”
Well I bought– See that was one thing my brother was good for he was a tia– Traffic
management office or whatever, he’s the guy that ships stuff around and when we graduated job
training they’re like “You can only take like two sea bags with you.” And then I asked my
brother and he’s like “Nah man you can ship whatever you want, car or whatever.” So I bought a
car, drove across the country, had it shipped out of San Francisco and went to Hawaii cause I’m
like– Cause you know how they are they want to tell all the new guys “Oh no you can’t do this
or that.” I mean if I was gonna be there for three and a half years I’m gonna have some stuff.
Interviewer: “Fair enough.”
For some reason cars in Hawaii are way overpriced.
Interviewer: “I can confirm that.”
�Rowland, Daniel
I assume it’s shipping costs.
Interviewer: “That and just everything is expensive in Hawaii that’s just how it goes.”
Oh yeah, it was expensive 20 years ago when I was there I can only imagine today.
Interviewer: “So, where’d you get stationed at in Hawaii?”
Camp Smith, it’s a little ho dunk base right above Pearl Harbor in a residential area, nice view
though I’ll give them that. When you look down you can see Pearl Harbor Hickam Air Force
Base which is right in the middle of Pearl Harbor, it’s pretty nice. There was like– It only had
four barracks on the base and like ten houses, it was commander in chief’s Pacific headquarters
and Marine force Pacific headquarters, it might have been 4 or 500 people stationed there. It was
interesting and small, I don’t know it wasn’t too bad. (9:20)
Interviewer: “And you did what there?”
I was an administrative clerk, I worked in the force adjutant when I first got there doing– But
before everything was electronic we got to actually file all the orders and stuff. So ooh that was
fun, and then I worked down in the classified vault for a couple of years, then ended up in the
security manager’s office doing background checks and all that fun stuff, cause you know
somebody’s gotta do it. So a nice wide array of things, went to Korea a couple times for
exercises, got to go to Seoul and Joseon and, you know, see other countries and have some fun.
Interviewer: “And what time frame did you go to Korea?”
‘96, ‘97, they were only for like a month or two each time, it wasn’t– Just some little exercises to
annoy the North Koreans I guess.
Interviewer: “Were you on like ships there or were you–”
�Rowland, Daniel
No we’d fly over and then work in some office, in some base, I don’t remember. The one time
we were in the Korean Marine Corps Base living in GP tents on their dirt soccer field in the
middle of summer and it gets hot over there and to boot the plumbing doesn't take toilet paper
well, yeah you’ve never been to Korea have you?
Interviewer: “I’ve been but–”
And when you wipe you throw it in the trash can next to the toilet and then they would take it out
and burn it. Well we were right downwind from the burn pit, so needless to say that one of my
times in Korea was not the most fun.
Interviewer: “So were you feeling some animosity from the South Koreans or was this just
all by…”
No, that's just the way they did it, I mean they had space– Because their little headquarters was
like on a hill so any flat land you could get was amazing, so we just happened to be right
downwind from the burn pit. (11:07)
Interviewer: “That’s unfortunate.”
Oh yeah cause we had to walk through the bulk of it on our way to chow so by the time you got
there– It was a great dieting technique I guess, you didn’t have to feel the urge to eat.
Interviewer: “So were you working like hand in hand with the South Koreans?”
They were just joint exercises, I mean we were the command element so we didn’t actually go
out and do stuff we were just doing like the fake information would come in and then we would
process it and then disseminate down to lower command of guys actually doing stuff, so nothing
amazing.
�Rowland, Daniel
Interviewer: “And were you like sitting with generals and doing all this or were you just
like sitting in a little tent typing on a thing.”
Well I was representing the security manager so I basically was the guy running around
shredding classified material, nothing too pressing. Yeah my job was not– It sounds all nice but
it’s not as glamorous as one might think.
Interviewer: “Were you like– Did you not enjoy this job? I’m assuming you didn’t sign up
with the Marines to be a clerk.”
When I signed up they gave me one of those job option packages that was air field service
support, so like air traffic control or something, it was legal clerk or administrative clerk. So I’m
like– I was fine with two of them but not the third and I’m sure you can guess which one I got
because I’m like “Woah, hey legal clerk and air traffic controller that sounds kind of fun.” And
based on my scores I’m like– Admin is like, out of three, the dumbest people go to admin and I
don’t know why but whatever, I’m not gonna complain, needs of the Marine Corps. (12:43)
Interviewer: “Fair enough.”
So I got stuck there.
Interviewer: “So your time in Hawaii was pretty uneventful?”
Yeah for the most part, I went to school, I was there because, you know– Of course when I
dropped out of college the first time you know my dad’s like “Oh you’re never gonna finish
now!” So I had to prove him wrong cause I’m just that stubborn.
Interviewer: “What did you get your degree in?”
Associate’s in business and a bachelor’s in social work and then spent my last year, got divorced
while I was there too, let’s just say as a single guy with a year left on the island I had some fun
�Rowland, Daniel
but we won’t go into that because this is a family program apparently and then I got out in–
Went on a terminal leave in ‘98 and came home and got out, went to the IRR, individual ready
reserve and hung out for a while.
Interviewer: “Okay, and–”
I’m just gonna roll into the next part I assume.
Interviewer: “Yeah.”
So employment was like I was trying to– I guess I think of that time that’s when they actually
changed– In Michigan it was weird, you only needed a bachelor’s of social work to work in the
field and then they changed it master’s degree and all that stuff so I’m like– Needless to say
trying to get a job in the field I wanted wasn’t that great so during that time as a reserve Marine I
could volunteer to do active duty every now and then. (14:05) I went a couple places just for like
oh we need somebody here for a month or a month there so I dabbled around and then in 2001
there was an opportunity to go down to North Carolina for six months and I’m like “Okay, I’ll go
down there.” So I signed up and they flew me down and needless to say you know in September
stuff happened and at that time then we went over to– Well I didn’t go but the military went to
Afghanistan and since I was there it was– I volunteered for six months and then since I was there
when 9/11 happened they started calling up all the reserves like “Well while you’re here, here’s
some orders to stay another year.” And then I was officially involuntarily recalled and for the
next– Till 2004, every year I would get additional orders to stay another year, so I was basically
involuntarily activated for two years.
Interviewer: “And how did you feel about that, were you upset?”
I was fine, it’s not like I had a job back home I’m like “Well hey” and yeah when I got there I
was working at– I was originally working for the Marine reserve unit out of Lejeune and then I
got moved up to the 2nd Marine Expeditionary Force Command Element cause a guy I worked
with in Hawaii he’s a colonel now and he’s like “Oh you’re here.” I’m like “Oh, how are you
�Rowland, Daniel
doing?” Cause as you know the military’s actually kind of small, especially the Marine Corps, so
having worked in the security manager’s office in Hawaii he stuck me in the security manager’s
office in Lejeune so– Because they were just starting the office so I’m like “Okay” and by that
time I was a corporal and I basically got to set that up. So that was fun, learning– Basically doing
my old job again which was kind of weird because as an administrative clerk you can work in
pretty much any– You can work with any unit, every unit rated an administrative clerk, you
know they say you do 30 years you don’t do the same job twice so but apparently I got stuck in
the same job again, but you know it pays off in the end.
Interviewer: “So when you were recalled– Or not recalled but when you went down to
North Carolina for the six months was the to do administrative work or were you doing
something else?”
Well yeah I was– They were– They were just, from my understanding I don’t know for sure,
they were– What was it called it was like the Marine augmentation command element, basically
it’s where a bunch of reserve guys, like older higher ranking guys that are retired and were still
reserve. (16:37) It’s like if the command element ever went to war these guys would get called
up to fill in key positions back in the rear. So they were just setting up and they just needed
people to come down and help them set up their infrastructure and stuff so I’m like “Oh, okay.”
Six months, I’d be doing admin stuff no big deal, I needed a job, they needed Marines, I’ll just
go and then like I said 9/11 happened and stuff just got real and you know I was cheap to call up
because I was already there.
Interviewer: “Fair enough.”
And so, then what happened? I don’t know, that was 2001, 2002, then I was dumb and got
married again in 2003. Yeah I got married in February of 2003, they’d just gone over to invade
Iraq in December and my office sent a Marine who apparently doesn’t know how to jump, got
injured getting off a helicopter and they’re like “Oh hey, you’re going over to replace him in
deployment.” I’m like “Okay.” So after being married three weeks I got whisked away to Iraq for
2003 and I worked with the– Well I guess it’d be more commonly called Task Force Tarawa the
�Rowland, Daniel
2nd Marine Expeditionary Brigade and when I got to them in March it was the Battle of
Nasiriyah and I was tasked as the assistant security manager of the– Basically the tent where the
general and all his command stuff were and to got over sea this little security element we had and
all this other fun stuff– Oh yeah I was a sergeant by then too, and I would stay there for the next
seven years, we’ll get into that later.
Interviewer: “When you say stay there you mean stay a sergeant, not stay.”
Right, yeah. Yeah not in Iraq, though I was there enough I should’ve bought a summer home. So
yeah just to gloss my own ego more I was a meritorious sergeant yeah.
Interviewer: “Oh okay.”
That’s for the record, because I was such an outstanding jarhead.
Interviewer: “Not astounding enough to be an E6 but–” (18:37)
Oh no but they give E5 and unders away as like candy, like “Oh here, get promoted.” So I was
over there and got in some– Because we were responsible for the bulk of the forces, the Army,
and the 1st Marine Division, went up through Saudi and went north– West and then swung
around to Baghdad, we were supposedly tasked with mop up operations, heading in right south
of Baghdad and then swinging east. So we had all these little small towns and crap but Nasiriyah
was the worst fighting of the invasion. I was not actually in the fight but we were right behind
them, you know command element we basically tell everyone what to do and you could see all
the crap coming back and all the casualties,this, that. I mean it’s not– Nowhere near like a World
War II or Vietnam scenario I think our casualties were only like 100 or less if you do MIAK– Or
wounded and killed so the WAK, I don’t know we gotta work on our acronyms, there’s so many
of them I don’t know.
Interviewer: “So you never saw any of the actual fighting, no one ever attacked the
command element?”
�Rowland, Daniel
Well you could hear and when you went outside you could see cause a lot of it was at night you
could see the, like the artillery, the LAV, the tanks. So the fire fights and stuff because we were
just on the other side of– There’s a river that runs by the bridges and we were on the back end of
it and we could kind of see down you could like see it all going on. So not the same as being
obviously in it so I can’t make any grandiose claims like that but anyway after that then we
moved on. We ended up in some old Iraqi air base by Al Kut, hung out there for a couple months
after the invasion ended, sweat a lot because the desert’s hot in the summer.
Interviewer: “I had no idea.”
Really? You learn something new everyday.
Interviewer: “Exactly.”
And then came home. (20:33)
Interviewer: “So during the actual fighting I’m assuming you weren’t working on security
clearances and that sort of thing.”
No I mean most of it there, most of my job at the end of the day was just making sure the area
was secure, people that came and went had clearances, we didn’t actually process– clearances
were for the rear, you showed up you either had it or you didn’t so it’s nothing amazing. Though
I did get to see how things happened at a command level, you know it was like the fly on the
wall I just like walk in the tent and see everybody doing their jobs like the three shop who is
operations and then all the other guys are like “Oh we need this, we need that, tell them to do
this.” You know like you see war movies and you just see the soldiers are out fighting but you
know actually seeing the puppet masters I guess you’d call them, cause you know if you’re the
down on the front line fighting, you know you just go where you’re told, but seeing how they
make those decisions at the higher level I guess was pretty good for an experience level.
�Rowland, Daniel
Interviewer: “Did you ever have any issues with officers?”
Who doesn’t? No, no not at that time really it was actually– Again the Marine Corps would end
up being small again later on in my career but no at the time no. Well everybody’s so focused on
the job at hand which is, you know war which is kind of why we exist then, you know personal
animosities between each other. Though there was one captain, he was the general’s aide to
camp and he was kind of a douchebag.
Interviewer: “What did he do?”
No he was just a dick.
Interviewer: “Oh, fair enough.”
Well because you know here’s the general making all the decisions and this is basically his
lackey, carry my briefcase and crap. (22:05) So he had nothing else to do but harass us, there
was me, the general’s terp and his driver and we assumed he was crap for no reason. He’s like
“Oh, you know you need a haircut.” And I’m like– Right, right.
Interviewer: “We are at war.”
There are some people, no matter what you’re doing, that want to stick to military protocol like
it’s gonna be the end of the world if you don’t.
Interviewer: “Got it.”
I mean we’re talking about a guy– So like we’re in a town trying to take it over and stuff and he
would find some Iraqi out in town to like, press his camis and pay them like a couple bucks.
Interviewer: “Wow.”
�Rowland, Daniel
Yeah, this– Don’t get me started on it there’s just some people that are like, what? I mean we
were in MOP gear for like over a month, the– I forgot the actual acronym, the biological weapon
cause we were still “Oh he’s got a WMD.” You know so we had on this mop gear for over 30
days, no– I mean we were invading, no showers no– You know baby wipes became our friends.
So we were pretty nasty so like I didn’t get a haircut, really? But anyway that’s– He annoyed me
but that was about it.
Interviewer: “So when you were over in Iraq, other than the administrative work, you
know what did you do after the invasion?”
We sat around for– Cause the invasion was late March, early April and we were there till like the
beginning of July, end of June and we just sat there, that was it. I mean you’re not– I mean
because they’re still having to figure out what they’re gonna do with the country and we’re just
like– We’re hanging out and doing nothing, played lots of spades. (23:48)
Interviewer: “After that what happened, when did you leave?”
We got back on the ships– See they went over in December on the ships and then I, like I said, I
flew over mid deployment and then we had to take the ships back so that was fun, but I got on
the boat and took the longest shower of my life, maybe, but it was nice and then we got to float
home. Yeah, stopped in Lisbon on the way, that was fun.
Interviewer: “What ship were you on?”
The– Was it the Nassau? Yeah I think it was the Nassau, we had the Nassau, the Kearsarge, and I
forget the third ship in our little fleet but it was a hootenanny. Got to go through the Suez canal
and man the guns, hey we’re jarheads what else we got to do right?
Interviewer: “I’m assuming nothing tried to attack you.”
�Rowland, Daniel
No, that’s standard protocol when you’re going through the canals and the stuff is to man the
guns on the side. So whatever but got to go past the rocket gibraltar, that was fun looking, I guess
that you– There’s– I mean you know you’re Navy, all the little weird things like the shell back or
if you cross the equator and this, we got one for going through the city waters and ooh.
Interviewer: “So the military traditions where they kind of haze you and you get a little
reward afterwards.”
Not for that one, you just got it for going through the Suez and the Med, yeah I’ve heard of some
of the things they do and sea bats and all that, we’ll leave that for you to explain for the people to
hear.
Interviewer: “Shell backs a whole different beast.”
No you never heard of the– “Hey we got a sea bat under that container.” And then you go–
Never mind. (25:24)
Interviewer: “Yeah the old, the hazing techniques to make you go just waste your time.”
[overlapping chatter] Hundred yards of flight line I got.
Interviewer: “Go wait for the mail buey, that sort of thing.”
Hey, get me some blinker fluid. No? Okay, keys in the humvee.
Interviewer: “So the Navy was kind of messing with you guys a little bit.”
Well– But that was it though and man I tell you what the Navy cooks are actually pretty good, I
don’t know. Well compared to eating MREs for three months I guess anything was good.
Interviewer: “So after–”
�Rowland, Daniel
And so I get back and, you know that’s it for– So by then I’m married, got a kid on the way, and
I’m still on involuntary order so I’m like “Well, I should probably go.” Cause by this time I had
almost seven years and I’m like “Oh maybe I should go back to active duty.” and that took a year
cause recruiters suck.
Interviewer: “So where were you at for this year? Were you just–”
I was– No I was still recalled reservist back at my old job at Camp Lejeune and that’s when I got
my Navy achievement medal and all the other crap for a job I didn’t even know what I did and
they give them out like candy so like “Oh hey everybody gets one” unless you’re infantry, then
you don’t get anything. So then I try to come back in, takes them a year, I tried going officer too,
that didn’t pan out I don’t know. So apparently– Well whatever, so then I go back then they let
me back in in June of 2004 and I tried going back in as an intelligence analyst because I’m like
I’ve already got the clearance. (26:57) I mean I kinda needed high clearance for my old job and
then I figured– They made me retake the ASVAB and scored perfect and I’m like “Oh okay, I
can get in, this is no problem.” They’re like “Oh, we want you back in but only as infantry.” I’m
like “What?” “It’s the only thing we have open.” So of course I took it cause I got a kid on the
way, I’m marrying, and I gotta provide for my family and then I come to find out later there was
still like openings for the intelligence. Apparently recruiters even treat Marines like 17 year olds
and just meet their quotas, I don’t know but I’m still a little bitter about that.
Interviewer: “That’s understandable. So when–”
I had two college degrees and a 99 on the ASVAB and a top secret clearance, I was like “Why
couldn’t I get the job?” Anyway.
Interviewer: “That is a bit on the ridiculous side.”
So I guess I went in as one of the smaller grunts, that was– Yeah June of 2004, I got to my unit
in August of 2004 2nd Battalion, 6th Marines, 2nd Marine division blah blah and then they stuck
�Rowland, Daniel
me in weapons company. I was going to become an anti armor assault man, 0352 basically we
shoot rockets at tank and at that time they told me “Oh they just got rid of on the job training.”
Which means you could like work work with a unit for six months and get your new job
designation. “So you have to go back to training.” So I’m a sergeant with seven years in and they
sent me to basically back to combat training with a fricken 18 and 18 year old privates.
Interviewer: “That sounds fun.”
Oh it was hootenanny, it wasn’t really that bad there were two corporals over there too and the
instructors pretty much let us like not do all the dumb crap.
Interviewer: “They knew you knew essentially.”
Well considering I outanked most of my instructors I was like, okay you know– Like you know
like no cell phones or no smoking for the privates but then we go hang out with the instructors
behind the buildings and call our wives and smoke cigarettes cause if it wasn’t anything
essential, like especially the first three weeks were basically a rehash of combat training and then
the last four weeks you break up into your specific jobs, they train all the infantry there. (29:05)
So we just went to class and then graduated and went back to our units, it was still fun though,
and that’s when I found out I lost all my time in grade as a sergeant. Yeah I was promoted June
2003 to sergeant, was it? No, 2002 and then when I came back to active duty they reset my date
of rank, which being in the military one of the important parts of getting promoted was time in
grade. So you have to be a certain rank so long before you’re even eligible for the next rank, so I
lost like two and half years' time in grade, that was fun.
Interviewer: “And you couldn’t fight that at all?”
No, even though I was involuntarily activated, that comes in later, this is a big whine fest I think.
So I graduate in October ‘04, go to my unit and then the next– What was it? Yeah it was the next
October, October ‘05 but in that time they send me to sergeants course, some counter terroism
course, all these frickin courses cause apparently they thought I was smart or something, and
�Rowland, Daniel
then October ‘05 we head over to Fallujah, Iraq this was after the push through I think it was
Phantom Fury is what is was called. We’re the first unit to take over the area after the push
through, and at the time I’m like “Oh, I’m gonna be a platoon sergeant.” Because you know I’m
a sergeant and then they’re like “Nope, you’re going to headquarters company.” “What?” And
then they stick me in an entry control point in the middle of Fallujah, basically the city was– I
don’t want to say quarantined or blockade, but to get in the city you had to go through one of six
checkpoints, you know they had to search you, we had a little vehicle. All these, you know kind
of like the TSA but you know not as stupid, so I got stuck there for the deployment. Nothing too
exciting, I had a little satellite outpost where we did commercial traffic, semis and crap, we got
into a fire fight a couple of times because we’re like right on the main highway and right behind
us was like this big gully, I don’t even know. So somebody could just like walk into the city
through it if they were somewhat evasive and they’d walk up and take pot shots at us and that
was not as exciting as it sounds cause you’re on– We did 24 on, 24 off so you’d be bored most of
the time “Ooh search the– Search the big truck full of stones!” We had the long like rebars we
had to stick in their and we’re looking for bombs or something, I don’t know, and then pretty
quiet till March of ‘06. (31:37) Then our main checkpoint got blown up from one of those orange
dump trucks, google it you’ll see them, and somebody decided to blow it up and we only lost one
Marine and a couple of Iraqi guys because we had the Iraqi army and police working with us too,
about 30 wounded because the concrete barriers they like to use like to turn into microscopic
shrapnel, once you have you know a couple thousands of pounds of explosives go off next to it.
So then a couple days all the guys would have the fragments in them from the explosion, started
becoming sick their body was rejecting it, but since I was at the little satellite outposts I went
over– Cause the explosion was– So we were 600 yards from them and it knocked me on my ass,
that’s how big the explosion was and then I got to go over there with some of the Iraqi guys and
it was just like the little building, everything was just knocked the hell down but most of the–
And I don’t– Did they over teach you OPSEC? I assume they teach you OPSEC when you’re in,
you know like if you travel change your routes and stuff. Well our brilliant bosses every day at
the same time was the changeover, when the one team would come out and go off so after six
months of doing the same thing every day they knew when to hit us. So needless to say it was
kind of– And I pointed this out months before but you know I was just an E5 what did I know?
It’s not like seven years being in a security office going to, you know, the naval criminal
�Rowland, Daniel
investigation security managers course, the DSS security managers course, I got certificates a
mile long but no, I didn’t know nothing. Being a security manager for the invasion for a general,
no what did I know cause– I’m gonna try, you know those clover leaves when you get on the
highway, they like wrap around, we were like right in the middle of one so when somebody hits
the on ramp they can look down and it was just– This is something a frickin moron should be
able to look at and be like “That doesn’t seem that secure with the on ramp open.” So whatever,
so I started building an animosity towards officers, more so after that because you know when
they don’t listen it’s like “Really?” But anyways that’s besides the point, and that was the first
time I lost somebody under my command so– Cause technically I was second in charge of that
unit, I had an E7 and then me and then we had like 15 guys under us or whatever so still a little
haunted by that, anyway [unintelligible]
Interviewer: “So stepping back a little bit when it comes to working with the Iraqi police
and–”
Yeah they were pretty good, nothing weird about them just dudes trying to make a living.
Interviewer: “You didn’t worry at all that they might be with any of these groups?” (34:28)
Not at that time, cause we’re talking a couple years after– They, I guess the local government
they had a pretty good way of vetting you know I mean I never had a problem with them. Hell
usually when we closed down the post we’d go– Cause we had a little trailer and these guys, I
don’t know if you ever saw the big shipping containers, they would basically– They built bunk
beds and stuff in there for them because those guys were out there for like a month, they
weren’t– Like after 24 hours we go back to our little base, have our nice little beds and these
poor guys are out there but we’d go in there and we’d smoke hookahs with them and have some
tea, play cards, whatever you know just dudes. They were some– Well let’s just say they loved
cellphones too because they would show some nasty– They’re just red blooded dudes like
anybody else man, they were just trying to make a living to support their families. So for the
most part, no I never had to worry about them, plus yeah I’d also gone through an Arabic course
�Rowland, Daniel
I can even speak the conversational toddler so that was fun too. That’s the way I look at it, I was
never that great at it.
Interviewer: “Did any of the guys under your command have any issues with them like
pick fights with them or anything?”
No, I think initially some guys were worried but after a month or two you find out they’re just
regular guys and there’s nothing bad about them. Which is I guess counterintuitive from what
people have been told but like a lot of guys that would even put the bombs on the side of the road
it’s not like they were fundamentalist terrorists, someone’s like “Hey, here’s a couple hundred
dollars go put this–” But this is the point where they were stop setting them off themselves, it
was the ones where, well the full term would be victim actuated improvised explosive devices,
pretty much like imagine a pressure plate and when you drove over it it would complete the
circuit and blow up. So some of these guys would go and just set them up and the ones that we
would caught they’re not terrorist or anything they’re just like “Oh hey someone paid me X
amount of dollars to do this.” (36:22)
Interviewer: “And what would– Did you ever catch any of these guys yourself?”
Well I mean we didn’t other like units, we were pretty stationary so we weren’t even mobile but
from what I heard a lot of the ones they did catch in the act they were just doing it cause they
were paid, because you know that– During that period of time you know that was before the full
rebuilding effort, it was hard man I could imagine a guy “Hey I need to get food for my family.”
Here a dude “Here’s some money man go put this over by the road.” “Okay.” So it’s– I wish it
was as clean cut as that, oh here’s a bad guy shoot him, but is he a bad guy or just someone down
on his luck, I don’t know. It’s very– It’s always a lot more complicated than people make it out
to be in the media, but anyway but at the end of that then we came home in April of ‘06 and we
did what Marines do, you know run a lot, train a lot, and get ready to go back over the next year
so then we went back in October– I’m sorry April of ‘07. That was the standard fair, go for
seven, eight months, come home for eight or nine and then go back over but eight or nine at
�Rowland, Daniel
home wasn’t– You weren’t home, we had to go to California for a month or two, then we had to
go to Virginia, all this training, go in the field every other week it seemed like, train train train.
Interviewer: “Now going back to the orange dump truck, did you guys– Did that at least
spark some change?”
Not really.
Interviewer: “Like did you guys move the security point at that point, better off site?”
No they had it rebuilt within 24 hours, they closed the on ramp, that was it. We were gone within
a month so nobody seemed to care.
Interviewer: “Okay, and–”
The prevailing attitude is if you’re a lower rank you’re expendable, I mean that’s the– (38:08)
Let’s call it what it is, your job is to die for the cause and if you do they’ll just “Hey, we got guys
back at the base we’ll just fill in the roster.” Cause that’s all they did, when everybody got his I
think four or five of us out of 30 people between the two crews, like three or four of us stayed
out there and they just replaced them with a bunch of other dudes, it was like we didn’t miss a
beat, you know can’t stop operations man, mission accomplishment and all that crap. So yeah
they closed down the ramp, engineers rebuilt the place in like a couple of hours and hey we’re up
and running again. Military efficiency, whooo! I mean that’s just the way it works man, which I
understand but then it seems like the lack of– I understand that you have to do what you have to
do, I get that but then it seems like even afterwards when you do have time to breathe, no one
else really seems to give a crap, is that? Now obviously in old school conventional wars when
you had to push through, push through yeah you didn’t have time and I get that but like what we
were doing, out of seven months you know six and a half of it was pretty damn boring. So
needless to say we– You know but there’s always downtime especially when we’re home within
a month it’s like, okay thanks for not giving a shit.
�Rowland, Daniel
Interviewer: “So, you went home, you did your year of training.”
Yeah and then we went back, this time I actually was a platoon sergeant and I got my own 24
guys, six we were a mobile assault platoon, five gun trucks in a high back, basically a pickup
truck with big walls and we got to travel around and try to find interesting people and shoot
them. So that was a hoot but things are really quieted down by that compared to the last time, I
think the first time I was in Fallujah everything was blowing up and there were roadside bombs
like every five feet it seemed like but the second time it was actually pretty quiet.
Interviewer: “Were you again near Fallujah?”
We were in the same exact spot.
Interviewer: “Same on ramp and everything?” (40:10)
Well no that was entry control point, this time I was actually with the weapons company with an
actual mobile assault platoon but I mean we were on the same forward operating base, some of
us were sleeping in the same beds we were a year before. We were exactly back, the only
difference was the first time we were there the city was like divided up into three areas and all
these different units had a different area of responsibility. When we went back we had the whole
city to ourselves, it had calmed down that much, so we’re like “Okay” and for the most part, like
I think the first time we were there we lost ten or 12 guys maybe, there was actually a sniper out
there in January too when we were there, he killed a couple guys, mostly Iraqi police, Iraqi army.
I think we lost a couple guys and so we had– So we lost about ten to 15 guys and I think we had
about 20 wounded, the second time we were there I think we lost two, maybe three, but one of
them was a– We were there like not even a week and some engineer that had been attached to
our unit, new guy, went to a porta chuter and offed himself.
Interviewer: “Jeez.”
�Rowland, Daniel
Not– And then another one some dude was driving down the road really fast and his humvee hit
a dune and the guy got thrown out the back and killed, so two of our KIAs were through
accidents or self-inflicted injuries. So I guess you don’t count those when you’re talking killed in
action which is normally enemies but this time no.
Interviewer: “I mean it’s still people dying.”
I understand the sympathy from regular but when you’re in that scenario it’s like– Well one died
cause they were stupid like don’t speed in your humvee down the road, you know so he was a
casualty of stupid and the other was, you know I guess he got there and he couldn’t hack it, we
had only been there a week. So is it sad? Yes but can I feel sympathy towards him? Not really, I
mean if you don’t want to go I understand that but like we had guys that were more creative, they
were like self inflicting injuries before we left like dropping weights on their feet and breaking
their feet. Oh that’s fine, then you get charged for malingering but still you don’t have to go.
Interviewer: “I mean–” (42:22)
I’m just saying if you don’t want to go to Iraq there’s things you can do before we even leave
where you’re not offing yourself, I’m just saying callous but when you’ve been over the multiple
times and you’ve seen your friends die from enemy action and crap, it’s hard to feel sympathy
for other people, like you knew what you were getting into when you signed up especially in
2007, 2008 I mean we’d already been at war for like six, seven years it’s like if you signed the
dotted line and didn’t think you were going why’d you sing up? It’s not like they were drafted it
was still all volunteer force, it sounds cold but given the circumstances you probably know what
you’re getting into, and besides he was like a– He was a motor team mechanic or an engineer it’s
not like they ever left the base, again not trying to be a dick but you know from my perspective
it’s like oh I gotta go out into town two, three times a day and potentially get shot at and you’re
sitting here, you know on the base really not doing anything, and by then we had a nice chow
hall, I mean like salad bar, sandwich bar nice even brought in the guys from Indy to work it for
us, it was pretty swank.
�Rowland, Daniel
Interviewer: “So when you were going out and, you know as you said it, searching for
interesting people to meet and shoot did you have a lot of action?”
Not as much as one would think but it seemed the other units–Or the other platoons always got
the fun stuff, hell it was our first week, we got there and then we ripped with the unit we were
replacing which is like ride along, riding along, basically like they go out and then like your
leaders will ride with them and then you’ll slowly phase in your guys and replace theirs. I think it
was about the second week we’re driving down the road and we get called to go to an incident
and somebody had been driving on the road, some idiot and I use these terms with endearment,
had an accident in the convoy and wandered off onto a dirt road and gotten belly shotted. By this
time the insurgent tactics had moved to burying IEDs in the road so, you know general protocol
was don’t drive down dirt roads. Well somebody did and belly shotted a humvee and we got to
go clean it up.
Interviewer: “By that you mean they drove over it and the bomb went off under?” (44:47)
Yeah the– If I was– Me standing in the blast like my head stuck up, I don’t know if they buried it
that deep or it was the explosion cause I mean I don’t even know what ammunition they used we
were just there for clean up. So most time you think the 155 shells or whatever, you know where
the charge could blow up but this could’ve been one the blew up and down and made the hole
deeper, I don’t know, but yeah we got to pick up a couple guys in ziploc bags, take them to the
main base morgue, and I think half of our guys were like new, so we kind of like left them over
the road while we collected things and them brought them back but like it was– It was just
sloppy, it always seemed– Cause as a mobile assault platoon we were more– We were too fast
for like them to just sit down and ambushes, that’d be more for like the foot patrols. We were
more reactionary so we always showed up when things were going on or just finished that was
kind of our job, or to project a military presence.
Interviewer: “Basically you would go around.”
�Rowland, Daniel
Is that the correct term that they use, or projecting force, I don’t know. So and then another time,
this one’s funny, we had a– There was a big intersection of Fallujah and the Iraqi police, I don’t
even like know stoplights, they made like this little plywood– I’m trying to think of what you–
You know just imagine like a little plywood like tool booth if you would, a little bigger with a
roof on it and surrounded by sandbags and you know they’re out there directing traffic or
whatever and somebody takes– I guess sidestep, our commander, the battalion commander, they
basically more effectively cinched off the city to prevent you know ammunition and bombs
coming in. So– And it worked because eventually the insurgents in the city started making their
own, it was some yellow powder I don’t remember, but anyway this little bongo truck– It looks
like a roller skate, just google bongo truck and you’ll see they’re ridiculously small, this thing
was loaded with barrels of this explosive and he’s rolling down the road, runs into this Iraqi
police post and detonates. Now the one thing apparently insurgents can’t do is make their own
explosives, so the stuff in the cab went off, nothing else did. So he hits this little post of these
guys, I think one dude ended up breaking his leg just from the force of the impact but that was it.
(47:23) We get called up and we gotta cordon off the area and secure it, cause you know it’s still
explosive, so we’re just sitting there looking at this little blue bongo truck and inside the cab it’s
just messy because the guy managed to blow himself up and it’s just, you know guts and gore
over the– All over the windows and of course we found it hilarious, it’s like if you’re gonna die
for the cause fine but you know i expect you want to take more than just yourself with you. Of
course the downside is all this stuff spilled over the road, we had to wait for explosives ordnance
guys to come out and clean it up and I think we spent like 12 hours out there it was so boring.
One time like a dog runs by and runs away with a guy’s hand and yeah go ahead and laugh it
was– Now at this point you’re in country a few months, you’re just bored, you’re just laughing
so hard cause they open the door to try to, you know check the detonation device and all that
other stuff and it’s– So yeah we had fun too.
Interviewer: “Were you still on pretty good terms with the Iraqi police and military
there?”
Yeah I mean they were– Well I mean the police are from the area, the Iraqi army would normally
be from a different part of the country cause I guess you’d look at it like– If you think back to the
�Rowland, Daniel
Civil War they’d have like, you know the Michigan whatever unit, they’re all from the same
town wherever, and that’s the way the Iraqi army was. So– And they would bring in guys from a
different part of the country because they didn’t know anyone locally but the Iraqi police were
local. Yeah they were pretty good guys, no problems there I mean–
Interviewer: “What about the civilians?”
You know what they’re just people trying to live their lives man, for the most part they just did
what they did and we just went around. I mean it comes to this, if you weren’t dicks to them or
you weren’t, you know if you weren’t overly– If you just treat them like people you got along
fine, you know there’s a lot of– I’m sure we’ve all heard stories of the military that were over
there and like being over dickish, I don’t know if it was just because the Middle Easterners in
general were dehumanized or because they were just– I mean I don’t know but no they were just
regular people. Hell we would normally stop for– Grab lunch from a little place down on– I
mean we name the streets after like– I mean you can’t pronounce Iraqi but like north to south–
Yeah north to south had female names and east to west had male names but like the main drag
was called [sounds like “Frayen”] and there’s a little guy running a kebab shop there and we’d
pop in and get some lunch every couple of days whenever we’re around. (50:03) He was a nice
guy, give him money, we get food and it was pretty good food, jeez wonder if there’s any good
kebab shops around here, anyway– Hey man.
Interviewer: “Now you’ve got me wanting kebabs.”
I know right cause, you know what cause the stuff was fresh like right next door was an actual
butcher’s shop. I mean all our stuff is processed as hell, and here you are, you know you pull up
to the kebab shop, you hear the cows and goats mooing next door like okay I guess it’s fresh.
Interviewer: “So you didn’t ever really worry that one of these guys is gonna attack you or
anything?”
�Rowland, Daniel
It comes down to two mindsets, you can either– If you’re gonna worry about it you’re gonna
worry all the time and you’re just gonna go crazy or you’re gonna be so hyper tense all the time
you’ll snap, or you’re just like if it happens it happens, you know if you’re comfortable in your
training– I mean they call it muscle memory when you do something enough but it also applies
to other things like if you hear a gunshot or you hear an explosion you should instinctively know
how to react and if you trust that training, then you just don’t worry about it. I mean you’re
worried but you’re not– You know, otherwise you’re that paranoid guy who thinks the FBI is
listening to his thoughts through the, you know dentures in his mouth and that’s not a good way
to go or you’re– It’s gonna be a long ass seven months, he just eventually if it happens it
happens.
Interviewer: “Were you guys ever ambushed?”
Directly no, I mean we had a couple IEDs once, nothing huge like I hit one and blew out the tire
I think was unconscious a couple minutes but by then we had the new humvees like the doors
were like thicker and all this crap. So it like scratched the paint cause it was– Because it was
where we were driving on the main street and we would like go down to one end of the city and
come back, it really wasn’t that big but we went down and by the time we came back apparently
somebody put it there. (52:00) I mean it wasn’t like hey cause we drove and then we turned
around and came back driving the same path that we did and then drove over it and it blew. So
it’s like somebody– It’s like when you’re watching T.V and somebody throws out those little
spike strips that the cops do, that’s how quick he must have done it because it was right next to
an open field. So the guy must have sprinted out– After we drove by the first time must have
sprinted out, dropped it, ran back, I don’t know it was weird.
Interviewer: “And no one got injured in that cause of the–”
No, we blew like two or three tires on the humvee but we just pulled into one of our little bases,
swapped them out, and on our way again. Nice and quick, nice and painless, that deployment
was actually pretty laid back except for, you know stupid lieutenants but, you know. Oh my
lieutenant was an idiot, oh I know I have to explain it.
�Rowland, Daniel
Interviewer: “Yeah– I mean you don’t have to but–”
He’s the kind of guy– Like we go out and do two or three patrols a day, and he would “Okay”
show up 45 minutes early to our staging area and then he pulled out the map and he’d be
pointing “This is the route–” We would get objectives, like “Oh, we want you to check this spot,
this spot, this spot by the command– By the head shed.” And then he would map out all the
directions and we’re like “Why don’t we just go as long as we make all our checkpoint?” And he
started like “Oh let’s drive down this road, this road.” “Those are dirt roads.” You know hey
didn’t we first learn this lesson when we got in the country, and then– So I was the kind of guy I
would tell my lead truck guy like– Cause all of my vehicle commanders had been there before,
this like I said this is their second time in Fallujah and I’m like “Yeah just as long as we’re
making the checkpoints drive however you want to get there.” That created a lot of tension
between me and the lieutenant, I didn’t give a crap because I don’t want to get belly shotted. We
saw how this works, so screw him, and he was one of the pretentious assholes, pardon my
language.
Interviewer: “Did he try to get back at you for this?” (53:57)
Oh yeah I mean they always do that, you know you get in trouble for– I don’t know about this,
you get in trouble or you do something they don’t agree with but it’s not against the rules so then
they make up some shit to get back at you later. I mean nothing bad like I didn’t get a bad fitness
report or anything but yeah he was one of those guys. He graduated from one of those prestigious
schools and he didn’t– Whatever, I don’t care, he was a dick. So he– Yeah that created a lot of
crap between me and him but I didn’t care, all my guys made it home, I mean I think the worst
thing to happen to one of our guys is he got appendicitis, whoop-dee-doo, but then you always
have the commanders and like we had a 1st sergeant that was really bored. I love this rule, so we
lived in this old– It’s called Camp Baharia, it was an old bath party luxury resort it had like man
made lakes in it and stuff. Apparently Saddam used to have like race boat– Or speed boat races
and crap so all these little huts and stuff and you know after the war all the Iraqi siblings came
and like stole it all like the plumbing, the windows, all this crap. So we just have these shells of
�Rowland, Daniel
buildings and they have the porta crappers across the road from where we live and our 1st
sergeant’s like “Don’t leave your little house unless you’re at least in PT gear!” So one day one
of my guys he woke up, goes to the bathroom, he's just in his shorts, and he got a page 11 for
doing that.
Interviewer: “Page 11 is?”
Basically a reprimand in your file, so yeah cause he woke up and had to pee he got in trouble for
not putting a shirt on to go across the street in the middle of summer, in 130 degree weather,
yeah I know right.
Interviewer: “Seems legit.”
These are people that, again goes back to the kind of person, I got– Cause everything we did was
at a platoon level or lower so the company staff, they got really bored and they would do stuff
like enforce stupid ass rules. Alright maybe not– It– Whatever I think they’re stupid “Hey we’re
in a war zone! Don’t forget to put your shirt on.” Cause you gotta go to the bathroom (56:15)
Interviewer: “So pretty much nothing really that eventful happened at that point.”
Nothing, nothing exciting, or at least not to us I mean other of our platoons they’ll get into
firefights. I guess one time they were driving– One guy– One unit was driving down a road and
they have a– Fallujah’s got like a little industrial section in the southeast like all warehouses and
stuff, they were driving down there some guys come out of a building wearing suicide vests and
they were looking at each other and then our guys just turned their guns and started shooting at
them, see we missed all the fun stuff, I don’t know.
Interviewer: “That’s–”
Alright it’s not fun in general but when you’re in an armored vehicle and somebody’s shooting at
you with AK-47s and is still far enough where the suicide vests won’t actually do anyhting and
�Rowland, Daniel
all you have to do is rotate your 50 caliber machine gun down the alley and fire. I mean 50
caliber bullets are pretty– They’re lethal for like, you know small armored vehicles let alone
people, there’s not much left of you. So you always hear those stories and you’re like “Why
wasn’t I there?”
Interviewer: “So when did you leave?”
We left October of ‘07, got back and then that was pretty much the highlight of my career. I
reenlisted a couple months later and my choices were I could stay with the unit and get a $20,000
bonus or I could pick my own duty station. Well my dumbass picked the– My own duty station
cause who needs 20 grand? Well also the mentality of I’ve been over three times and managed to
still be alive, I don’t want to push my luck.
Interviewer: “Fair enough.”
Plus at that point my son was about four or five and I basically missed half his life, like when we
got back my third time I went to pick him up and he was crying because he didn’t know who the
hell I was, that’s depressing. (58:07) So I’m like “Yeah I’ll stay stateside for a while.” And then
I ended up being– Where the hell was it? Camp Johnson which is kind of a weird cyclical thing,
that was the base I went to originally to learn to be an administrative clerk.
Interviewer: “Where was that at?”
It’s like right next to Camp Lejeune in North Carolina, there’s like Camp Lejeune and then
there’s Camp Johnson, Camp Geiger, the air station. Camp Geiger is where they train the
infantry, Camp Johnson’s where they teach the mechanics, the administrative clerks, the
financial clerks, and the box kickers– Warehouse guys, their school’s two week it’s like “Why
are you even here?” So I basically ended back up where I started and the only jobs there for
grunts were sergeant of the guard, basically before a Marine goes into job training if there’s not a
class starting they stick them in a barracks and make them little crap jobs like, you know like
“Oh hey go help the maintenance guys.” Or go to– Well we got 40 guys to stand around and tell
�Rowland, Daniel
the Marines their shirts are tucked in, it was pretty mindless but I was fine with that because I
didn’t– I wanted mindless I wanted to be home and, pretty much not that exciting, I just sat
around with a bunch of other– Of course the problem was is the mentality, there were like seven
of us there, there were guys from 1st Battalion 6th Marines, 3rd Battalion and me and we’d all–
We’d actually all been in Iraq together, all of our units around, so our mentality was different
than a bunch of guys learning to be, you know accountants. So needless to say there were
multiple classes, though my first year there was probably my greatest year in the Marine Corps.
My immediate– My commanding officer was a guy I had served with during the invasion, so
again back to the small world. So yeah I got to basically get away with murder and I’m not
saying I did anything wrong but we had pretty lax guidelines at this point. When guys you had
served with in combat are your bosses, but it was all– Our sergeant major was about the top
enlisted guy, was actually with 3-6, he was like 5”1, his actual last name was Meanie, he was
single and he rode a Harley. Yes, everything you can imagine, he would have like an NCO call
for all the corporals and sergeants and he would be like “Well first two kegs are on me.” You
know the kind of senior enlisted guy that you only hear of in like fantasies and like I think he
was within six months. We were at a physical training thing and some 1st sergeant pissed him off
so he laid him out. (1:00:52)
Interviewer: “Like hit him?”
Yeah, from what I hear, and then he got transferred to a deploying unit which I think in hindsight
is what he wanted, I mean he was those kind of guy he could– You could like just drop him off
in Iraq and he would live there because he’s that kind of guy, but yeah but once those guys
started leaving then we got the pricks and that’s essentially where my career ended because I
couldn’t get promoted to staff sergeant. In the Marine Corps if you don’t make E6 by 13 you’re
out so.
Interviewer: “Okay so you were forcibly discharged.”
I was– I was unable to reenlist, but and then that goes back to when they took my two and half,
three years time in grade because as an infantry Marine you normally had to be in a sergeant for
�Rowland, Daniel
two or three years before you’re even eligible for promotion and by the time– So that was ‘04 so
I was, I think it was in the– In the Marine Corps you have Marines in the zone, below zone and
above zone so like they need a hundred dudes, they’ll put 200 guys in the zone, and that’s all
based on how long you’ve been and E5 and I think my first year I was in the below zone. That’s
basically like “Oh we can’t find enough good guys we’ll go down here and look.” So by the time
I was– And that just happened to coincide with the downsizing, they were gonna cut 20 or
30,000 Marines. They were promoting 400 Marines in my job a year, the year I was finally
eligible they cut it down to 90, it was like– So that along with my lost time in grade, you know I
should’ve been eligible for promotion two years earlier but now it was like, it was just a cluster
fudge and it kind of– Came to and end, which I was fine with because I was unable to reenlist
through no fault of my own, they gave me a nice severance package which was fun. I mean if
you’re gonna get out–
Interviewer: “You might as well get a severance from it right?”
Yeah but at the end of the day I, at that point I think I had 15 years in, a year and half later they
offered 15 year retirements.
Interviewer: “That’s unfortunate.” (1:02:55)
Oh I know right, but anyway that was pretty much the bulk of it.
Interviewer: “So that was your last duty station then you separated? What’d you do
after?”
Farted around a while, I bought a house in Jacksonville where Camp Lejeune is and of course in
2010, guess what happened in 2008. I went with downsizing, the housing market was just– So I
couldn’t leave, it was so sad because living in a military town when you’re no longer in the
military is like ehhh. Bummed around a while and then I finished my first master’s degree, I’d
started when I was in Iraq the third time, I was bored and like “I’m going to school.” And then I
don’t know, stuff just happened, I got sick of living there and then you learn the whole “It’s who
�Rowland, Daniel
you know” adage, like I would try to apply for the jobs on base and never seem to get them, but
now it’s just me whining.
Interviewer: “I mean the transition from civilian– Or military to civilian is hard.”
Well in a military town like that the jobs paid crap because there’s always an overabundance of
workers, military spouses and stuff so they can pay you less money because if you quit or you
get fired they got ten more lined up in the back. So the jobs just sucks and any good jobs on base
it’s who you knew, like one time there was an educational counselor job open at the base
education center, you know I had a bachelor’s in counseling and a master’s in education, I didn’t
get an interview. Things like that you know and after that I just gave up and eventually “Well
let’s just pack it in and move.” So when my marriage started going south, my second one, I just
grabbed my kid and moved back here to Michigan and said “Hey let’s go back to school again.”
Cause they gave me an extra year free, G.I bill so nothing amazing.
Interviewer: “And that’s what you’re doing now?”
Yeah I’m going to school and running into people like you who ask me to do things like this,
which isn’t bad I guess, taking worthless English classes. (1:04:50)
Interviewer: “So nothing– The military didn’t really prepare you for the civilian life?”
I’m– In the general context they do not, for me it– I mean this is gonna sound egotistical again
but I didn’t need them too because I’d done four years and gotten out the first time, then I went
back in, then when I got out the next time, you know– I think the best thing that prepared me for
transition was still living in a military town and knowing how it is, and then by the time I get
back up here it’s a totally different community like for one you know people around here
actually like veterans. Well when you’re in a military town they’re like “Who cares you’re a
veteran get the hell out of my face.” So no they put you through like a three day class when you
get out “Here’s how you do a resume, this is how you do this, this is how–” You know there’s
no– They give you information that you can find on your own they don’t actually– It’s like
�Rowland, Daniel
coming back from combat, they’re like “hey don’t beat your family members.” You know they
don’t actually transition you from a combat scenario back to, you know peacetime or back to life
back in the states, it’s done really poorly.
Interviewer: “Was that hard for you?”
Not for me but for everyone cause I mean having the– I think it was easier for me because my
first time in Iraq I didn’t really see combat but I got enough of it to know what was going on so
when I went back the second time I knew what to expect plus having, you know the self– Cause
having like the degree in social work I already knew the generic psychological aspects, all this
and that so I could help prep myself but it was just one of those weird things where what I
already knew just happened to fit what I was going to do. It’s really weird how it all came
together but I could also see at the same time that for the regular guys coming back that it wasn’t
anything special, it wasn’t anything– It was one of those dichotomies it’s like you know come
back if you’re feeling sad or whatever talk to somebody but yet at that time if you went and like
saw a shrink your career is pretty much over. They’ve destigmatized a lot in the last five, ten
years but at that time they’re telling you to do but everybody else knew if you did you’re pretty
much done. (1:07:18) So, I don’t know, that’s where you see the transition of what it was like to
what it is and I know– To my understanding it’s still not that great now but yeah from military to
civilian life good luck with that. I mean they don’t really– They tell you a lot of things but they
don’t actually tell you– Help you– Having the information and using that information in a
meaningful manner are two different things, so it’s like you know you come back “Here, have a
book. Get the hell out.” You know it’s like it’s not the same thing as actually helping someone
transition. So once you get those discharge papers, you know go away, I don’t care anymore you
are no longer under my command, get the F out I don’t care. So now you’re out there alone
you’re like “Who do I go to?” You have to find out all this on your own, like nobody tells you
that there’s veterans service officers, that you can go to the American legion, the VFW, the DAV
and all these other accessible things. They may mention them in passing but they don’t actually
tell you what they do, what they can offer, all this other stuff but whatever hey that’s just the
military. Once you’re no longer able to die for your country they don’t give a crap.
�Rowland, Daniel
Interviewer: “So are you– Would you recommend the military to someone?”
It depends on the person, what you want and what you’re willing to do.
Interviewer: “How would you feel about your son joining the military?”
I’d tell him to join the Air Force.
Interviewer: “Fair enough.”
If he joined the Marine Corps I’d smack him upside the head, like I was stupid you don’t need to
be stupid, or if you could do it in a capacity which you can maximize your benefits but minimize
your risks, I mean again that sounds kind of selfish or something but at the end of the day, you
know I don’t want my kid signing up and going off to die, I mean I don’t think anybody does,
but if he wants to join, get some job experience, some military expereince, and some money for
college well that’s great but if that’s all you want out of it– Like don’t join and enlist in the Army
as a soldier you know as an infantry. That’s the dumbest thing but some people like that and
again that’s why I’m saying it depends on the person. (1:09:30) If somebody’s all gung ho I want
to serve my nation and go to war well hot damn sign up, become infantry if that’s what you want
but some people– And it’s the aptitude as well, some people just they could be the smartest
person in the room but if they’re unable to listen to authority and keep their mouth shut, not a
good choice but that’s just me.
Interviewer: “Alright, that just about wraps us up, was there anything else you wanted to
say?”
No, I’m good.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RowlandD2291V
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Rowland, Daniel
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-12
Title
A name given to the resource
Rowland, Daniel (Interview transcript and video), 2018
Description
An account of the resource
Daniel Rowland was born in 1975 in Grand Rapids, Michigan and decided to enroll in the Marine Corps after his third semester in college. In 1995 Rowland attended boot camp in San Diego, California where he acted as the guide to recruits, After basic training, Rowland was sent to Camp Pendleton to complete Marine combat training. After completing Marine combat training, Rowland was sent to job training in North Carolina where he received training to become an administrative clerk. Rowland then spent three and a half years stationed in Hawaii at Camp Smith working as an administrative clerk. During this time, Rowland would be sent for occasional brief missions in South Korea. While he was stationed in Hawaii, Rowland also received his associate’s degree in business and bachelor’s degree in social work. In 1998 Rowland returned home and left active duty, joining the individual ready reserves where he did occasional active duty. One of these active-duty missions was a mission to go to North Carolina in 200. Due to the events of 9/11, this resulted in Rowland being involuntarily activated for two years during which he worked in a security manager’s office as an administrative clerk. In 2003 Rowland was deployed to Iraq as part of the 2nd Marine Expeditionary Brigade as the assistant security manager. After returning from Iraq to the United States by boat, Rowland decided to return to active duty as an infantryman in 2004. In 2005 Rowland’s unit was sent to Fallujah, Iraq working in headquarters company, and in 2006 Rowland came home for a year before being sent back to Fallujah, Iraq for a third time. Rowland returned home to the United States in 2007 and was stationed at Camp Johnson as a sergeant of the guard before being forcibly discharged and going on to return to school and resume civilian life.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Leroy-Rollins, Koty (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng