8 24 1541 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/466098295a92204ff01d6617cef00c2e.mp4 0726ba93a6b0b9c8780c53443053fe5b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/97620d8dd38248df8e8655d0b1d1f4e9.pdf 6c4482f8515e4050608d929de3d1a76a PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Joseph Hovinga World War II 58 minutes (00:00:10) Early Life -Born on January 3, 1923 in Dorr, Michigan -His father worked at Nash-Kelvinator in Grand Rapids, Michigan which made refrigerators -His mother was a housewife -They moved to Grand Rapids so that his father could walk to work -His father was able to have regular work throughout the Great Depression -There were eight children in the family, but two of them died -He attended South High School in Grand Rapids, but eventually left -Worked at Nash-Kelvinator with his father (00:03:16) Start of the War & Awareness of It -Remembers hearing about the bombing of Pearl Harbor on the radio -Prior to Pearl Harbor he hadn’t paid attention to the war in Europe and Asia -This meant that when Pearl Harbor happened it was a shock (00:04:07) Enlisting -Initially he didn’t plan on enlisting -His friends started to enlist or get drafted which motivated him to enlist in the Army -He went to Kalamazoo, Michigan to enlist and get sworn into the Army -Chose heavy weapons to be his specialization -Enlisted in 1942 (00:05:40) Training -Sent to Fort Sill, Oklahoma for training with heavy weapons -If they weren’t training with the artillery guns they would be marching -During training at Fort Sill he and another recruit went into town -The other recruit got drunk and a fight ensued -After Fort Sill he was sent to Fort Ord, California -Travelled from Fort Sill to Fort Ord by way of train -Remembers on the way they passed by a group of girls -He threw his military address out the window hoping that one would write -Wound up receiving a letter from one of those girls -At Fort Ord he trained with the 81mm mortar -He also received training at Fort Indiantown-Gap, Pennsylvania with the 105mm howitzer -Stayed at Fort Ord into 1943 -They were allowed to go off the base while at Fort Ord -There was a nearby town that could be reached by bus, but it wasn’t very large -He was paid $21 per month while in training -Fort Ord was located in farm country -While at Fort Ord they would routinely go out to the firing line to practice with mortars (00:14:52) Aleutian Islands Campaign -From Fort Ord he was sent to Hawaii �-From Hawaii boarded a troopship and sailed to the Aleutian Islands in Alaska -En route they were given winter clothing to prepare for the cold temperatures -He took part in the fighting on Attu Island in May 1943 -Landed on Attu Island by using a landing craft -They were told there wouldn’t be much of a Japanese presence on the island -When they arrived they found this to be false -The Japanese would come down out of the mountains using the low hanging clouds for cover -Usually came down in small groups to attack them -He only had his rifle at this point because they didn’t have mortars yet -He was part of H Company 32nd Infantry Regiment 7th Infantry Division -Specifically attached to a mortar unit, but fighting as a rifleman at this point -Stayed on Attu for about one month -Remembers that it was daylight all the time which made sleep difficult -He saw a lot of dead Japanese soldiers on Attu -The surviving Japanese were evacuated by a submarine -He drove a truck around to collect the dead Japanese to be buried in a mass grave -Attu Island was his first exposure to combat -H Company had not taken any casualties though -After the island was secured they took over Japanese construction equipment and built roads (00:20:44) Returning to Hawaii -After the Aleutian Islands they returned to Hawaii for further training -Stationed at temporary barracks located next to Schofield Barracks, Hawaii -Hawaii was a good place to be -Remembers seeing a lot of American planes flying overhead going into the Pacific Theatre -He was able to visit Honolulu a few times -Remembers that some of the men would go into town and drink and cause trouble -He was not one of those men though -Generally returned to Hawaii between campaigns for further training -Only exception was when they went to Okinawa from the Philippines -The main focus of their training was to prepare for amphibious assaults -This included learning how to swim and how to climb down into a landing craft (00:24:57) Marshall Islands Campaign -On February 1, 1944 his unit took part in the invasion of Kwajalein, Marshall Islands -It was a very easy battle -There was hardly any enemy resistance on the island -Able to take it very quickly -The entire battle only lasted five days -They only notable enemy contact he remembers was a Japanese sniper -H Company didn’t take many casualties during this battle either -At night they would set up trip flares -If a Japanese soldier tripped one it illuminated the area and they could shoot him -After the island had been secured they spent most of their time training and relaxing -They returned to Hawaii afterwards and were given more training to prepare for further attacks (00:28:04) The Philippines -After the Marshall Islands they were sent to take part in the liberation of the Philippines -This would have been in October 1944 �-By the time he arrived the fighting had already begun -On the Philippines he saw the brutality the Japanese inflicted against the Filipinos -Landed on the island of Leyte -H Company’s duty was to act as a support unit if the units on the frontline needed help -Gave him a chance to be in the rear and eat hot food as opposed to rations -On the Philippines they were given a malaria vaccination -Afterwards told to go exercise to allow the medicine to circulate better and faster -At night there was always the threat of Japanese soldiers breaking through their perimeter -He remembers one night four or five enemy soldiers got up to the perimeter -He had to make sure he didn’t shoot his own men in the process -On the Philippines mortars were used more often -First they would get coordinates and fire smoke rounds to cover the infantry -Next they would fire regular mortar rounds at the coordinates given -Sometimes it was sustained fire, other times it was only a few rounds -Didn’t run the risk of the mortar tube overheating and melting -The Philippines were pretty bad for a while -They wound up being tasked with pursuing the Japanese inland -Had to travel on foot -Each mortar crew had four men (on average) -He fought alongside the same group of men throughout the war (00:37:44) The Battle of Okinawa -After the Philippines the 32nd Infantry Regiment was sent to Okinawa on April 1, 1945 -They arrived after the invasion had commenced -Japanese resistance was stiff and they had retreated into the caves on the island -First they tried to convince them to leave the caves and surrender -They wouldn’t give up, so they had to burn them out with flamethrowers -His unit was tasked with mop up operations -Gathering prisoners of war and killing any Japanese soldiers that chose to fight -On Okinawa they would encounter groups of civilians that were surrendering to U.S. troops -Had to treat them with caution and suspicion because they might be combatants too -Remembers finding a coral cave that was occupied by a Japanese soldier -All he had on him was a sword and he finally surrendered after some coaxing -Joe confiscated the sword and was able to take it home with him -He found a Japanese doctor that spoke fluent English -He had studied in America and returned to Japan to visit his family -When the war began he was conscripted into the Imperial Army against his will -He surrendered immediately -He was on Okinawa when the news came that Japan had surrendered (00:42:40) End of the War & Coming Home -He was one of the first men to go home because he had enough “points” -Points were awarded based on rank, length of service, and action seen -As an enlisted man he needed eighty five points to be discharged -By June 1945 the fighting on Okinawa was over -Spent most of their time building roads and cleaning up the island -He left Okinawa with a few other men -The rest of the 32nd was sent to Korea to oversee the surrender of Japanese forces there �-He remembers watching a movie on Okinawa when the Japanese surrender was announced -Everyone cheered and fired their guns into the air because the war was finally over -He was placed on a troopship and went directly to San Francisco then to Fort Ord, California -From California he was sent to Camp McCoy, Wisconsin to be discharged -When he arrived he was allowed to go home because his paperwork wasn’t ready -After a week he returned to McCoy and he was discharged from the Army (00:46:10) Life after the War -He returned to Grand Rapids, Michigan -When he got back to Grand Rapids he had a confrontation with a woman on a bus -She had assumed that he hadn’t served and was upset because her son was still overseas -He clarified that he had already served for three years and she was kicked off -He took some time off from work and was in Michigan’s “52-20 Club” -Given $20 a week for fifty two weeks as part of the GI Bill -He met his wife in Grand Rapids when he went to a roller skating rink -He returned to work for Nash-Kelvinator for a while -After that he got a job working for A&P driving semi-trucks (00:50:40) Getting Wounded -When he was on Okinawa he was wounded and received a Purple Heart -He had been standing next to another man talking when a mortar round landed on them -The one man was killed and he (Joe) was wounded and evacuated -He was taken to a Landing Ship, Tank that was being used as a hospital ship -He had been hit in the head by a piece of shrapnel that had travelled along his scalp -He stayed on the ship for a month and then returned to Okinawa (00:52:53) Reflections on Service -Feels that his service made him more intelligent -You had to learn things fast when you were in the Army -Survival depended on being able to pick things up quickly and apply them (00:54:06) Interacting with Japanese Civilians -When he was on Okinawa he met a little Japanese boy that was starving -Joe decided that he would take care of him and would get extra food to share with him -He was always very grateful -Remembers that there were a lot of orphans on Okinawa -On Okinawa there was a Japanese woman that had a gaping leg wound with maggots in it -Joe decided to treat the wound by putting a powder in the wound that killed the maggots -Afterwards he bandaged up her leg -He doesn’t know whatever happened to her � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_HovingaJ1733V Title A name given to the resource Hovinga, Joseph (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 Description An account of the resource Joseph Hovinga was born in 1923 in Dorr, Michigan. He grew up in Grand Rapids, Michigan and enlisted in the Army in 1942. He trained at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, Indiantown Gap, Pennsylvania, and Fort Ord, California. He was sent to Hawaii and was assigned to H Company 32nd Infantry Regiment 7th Infantry Division. He saw action on Attu Island in the Aleutian Islands Campaign, on Kwajalein in the Marshall Islands Campaign, on Leyte in the Philippines, and on Okinawa. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hovinga, Joseph Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3d6fe80932a6f6a41994137ee597f162.mp4 32b4960e74d210bffd93a8a9e705561e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/711356597bac8ac36b136888d3cc865f.mp4 988edb24034b2d2be299ec143059bc1a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/14a15f56a57bcdc39178be97b94bd5fc.pdf b293a48ce0610edf5c25bfdfc1ffeb85 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Marshall Doak World War II Part 1 – 2 hours 3 minutes 40 seconds (00:00:13) Early Life -Born in Sturgis, Michigan at 220 Grove Street on March 3, 1921 -Father worked for CL Spence factory in Sturgis, but also played music -Died on Christmas Eve when Marshall was seven years old -Everybody was poor during the Great Depression -Made do with what they had -Mother remarried in 1933 -Moved to Benton Harbor, Michigan -Got along well with the black children, because they were poor too -Graduated from Buchanan High School in 1938 (00:03:45) Enlisting in the Navy -Interested in going to the Naval Academy -Had a scholarship to Rutgers University -Packed his belongings and planned on hitchhiking to Rutgers -Went from Benton Harbor to Detroit to Canada to the New York border -Couldn't get back into the United States through New York -Returned to Detroit and his parents took him home -End of any attempt to go to Rutgers University -Talked to people that had been in the Navy -They said they learned a lot -Recruiter thought he'd be a good fit for the Navy -If he made it through basic training he would be eligible for the academy -In June 1938 only the Navy accepted new recruits -Enlisted on November 9, 1938 (00:08:59) Basic Training -Sent to Naval Station Newport, Rhode Island for basic training -Used to doing hard work -Felt the Navy had good food -Almost felt like a vacation -Enjoyed the Navy -A lot of marching and discipline -Learned to follow orders -Had no problem adjusting to that -Met men from all over the United States -Men from larger cities were arrogant toward men from the country -Lasted four months -Worked on the historic ship USS Constellation (00�:11:30) Service on the USS Salt Lake City -Originally ordered to join the USS Cimarron -Orders were canceled -Ordered to go to the World's Fair in New York City -Those orders were also canceled �-Joined the USS Houston in Virginia and sailed to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba -Athletic competition held by the Atlantic Fleet in Guantanamo Bay -Reassigned to the USS Salt Lake City (heavy cruiser) -Given extra duties by one of the boatswains because Marshall was a Naval Academy candidate -Later reassigned to the Salt Lake City's sickbay -Enjoyed that duty -Invited to go to the Naval Academy -Enjoyed working in the sickbay and found medicine training -Decided to decline the invitation to the Naval Academy -Captain was furious, but understood (00:16:16) Hospital Corps School -Captain got him sent to Hospital Corps School in San Diego, California -Went to Hospital Corps School in late 1939 -Four month course -Concentrated course work -Worked day and night -Almost never got leave -Finished the top of his class -He was in charge of the other recruits -Meant he got into trouble if another recruit made a mistake -Which is why he didn't get leave that often -Visited San Diego a few times and Tijuana once -Goal was to complete Hospital Corps School and become a hospital apprentice -After that he would become a pharmacist's mate -Learned how to mix compounds and make drugs -Taught first aid -Worked in surgery, pharmacy, and X-ray in the hospital (00:19:59) Training at Great Lakes Naval Station -Sent to the hospital at Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois for a short time -Able to visit his family -Served as a hospital apprentice -Spent four or five months there (00:20:32) Norfolk Naval Hospital -Sent to the Norfolk Naval Hospital -Became the senior corpsman in the urological ward -Handled a lot of venereal disease cases -No cure at the time for gonorrhea -Only cure for syphilis took four years -Worked with a new drug that caused kidney failure and killed 80 to 100 soldiers -Primitive antibiotic -Norfolk, Virginia was a Navy-friendly town -People got along well with the Navy, because most of the people were affiliated with the Navy (00:25:16) Serving at Great Lakes Naval Station -Sent back to Great Lakes Naval Station to Building #7 to work in the dispensary -Had a 1935 Ford that he used to drive home -Gas cost only five cents a gallon -Completed that assignment in March 1941 (00:26:42) Assignment to the USS Wakefield -Sent to join the USS Wakefield in New York City �-Troopship being used to transport Allied soldiers -Secret assignment because the United States was still neutral -Use of an American ship and an American crew violated American neutrality -Practiced amphibious assaults with the Marines (00:29:50) Voyage to Singapore Pt. 1 -Sailed out of New York City in early November 1941 -In August 1941 the British were trapped in North Africa and needed help -Germans controlled the sea and air around Africa -Made it impossible for British ships to reach the troops in North Africa -President Roosevelt decided to help the British and fight the war by proxy -Give the British transportation and supplies, and let them fight -The USS New Mexico and other ships were sent to the United Kingdom -Escorted British ships from the United Kingdom to Halifax, Canada -USS Wakefield sailed to Halifax to meet the convoy of American and British ships -British troops boarded the Wakefield in the middle of the night -No newspapers, radios, letters, or cameras -Maintain secrecy to maintain American “neutrality” -Had a lot of contact with British soldiers -Interesting to hear the variety of accents -British were interested in hearing the American accents -First stop was Capetown, South Africa -Knew they probably weren't going home until the war ended -Had eight American destroyers, USS Cimarron, and USS Ranger escort them part of the way -Allowed to drop depth charges on U-Boats when they entered the Caribbean Sea -There were 5,500 British soldiers on board -Stopped in Trinidad -British troops were shocked to get sugar, butter, and fresh fruit -Hadn't gotten those things since the war began -Sailed from Trinidad toward Capetown -Most of the crewmen were “pollywogs” (men that had never crossed the Equator) -Went through the King Neptune's Ceremony -Getting paddled and had to kiss the “Royal Baby's bellybutton” -”Royal Baby” was a black cook -Angered the Southerners that had to participate in the ceremony -Sailed to the Caribbean with the Ranger then sailed to Capetown without the aircraft carrier -Still had cruisers and Marines to protect the convoy -Passed the Equator and spotted the German submarine tender Python -Knew U-Boats were in the area -Had the HMS Dorsetshire, HMS Achilles, HMS Ajax, and HMS Exeter escorting the convoy -HMS Dorsetshire sank the Python -Never knew if it was technically an American or English convoy (00:44:22) America's Entry into the War Pt. 1 -On December 5, 1941 he went into the radio shack and saw a lot of messages coming in -Reported coordinates of two Japanese task forces -One moving toward British Malaya (Malaysia) and the Philippines -Knew something was going to happen -On December 6, 1941 no new messages came in -That night they were called to general quarters -Captain announced Japan had bombed Pearl Harbor �-Also said British Malaya, the Philippines, and Wake -On December 8, 1941 the Japanese attacked Guam -Later learned that on December 5, 1941 the U.S. had over 50 bombers at Clark Field, Philippines -Japanese destroyed every one of those bombers on December 7 -USS Houston and USS Marblehead left Manila on December 5 and sailed to Borneo -Out of reach of the Japanese offensive -Pulled into Capetown, South Africa on December 8, 1941 -Germany and Italy declared war on the United States on December 11, 1941 -Meant President Roosevelt didn't have to convince Congress to declare war on them too (00:52:18) Voyage to Singapore Pt. 2 -Went ashore in Capetown -Set up a temporary office in the Capetown police department -Jan Smuts, the Prime Minister of South Africa, came into the department -Congratulated Marshall on the United States' entry into the war -Didn't know who it was until after Jan left -Allowed the British troops to go ashore in South Africa (00:56:00) America's Entry into the War Pt. 2 -On December 5 the British heard radio chatter implying a Japanese attack on the U.S. -Sent the information to Washington D.C., but received no response -Mexico received similar information and tried to notify the United States -Also ignored -Patrol planes out of Alaska were grounded -All American forces were ordered to stand down the week of December 7 (00:57:38) Voyage to Singapore Pt. 3 -Pulled out of Capetown along with British ships -Arrived in Bombay, India in late December 1941 -Stayed for a week -Able to go ashore -Still no idea what their final destination was -Sailed through the Sunda Strait between Java and Sumatra -Heavily mined area -Cut the mines loose and then blew them up -Passed through the Bangka Strait -Only had a few .50 caliber machine guns for defense and WWI-era helmets for protection -High-altitude Japanese bombers attacked the convoy -Japanese planes flying missions out of occupied Indochina -Bomb hit the USS Wakefield -Pulled into Singapore on January 29, 1942 -City was being bombed by the Japanese -Japanese bombers hit the city every hour -Only a few fighter planes and antiaircraft batteries to ward off the attackers -Singapore eventually fell to the Japanese on February 15, 1942 (01:05:42) Bombing at Keppel Harbor -Wakefield sailed to Keppel Harbor in Singapore on January 30 -Pulled 60 patients out of the sickbay and at 11 AM a bomb hit the ship and knocked him unconscious -Destroyed almost all of the ship's medical equipment -Woke up from being unconscious and was handed morphine syringes -Told to give morphine shots to a man covered in third degree burns -Gave the man 20 shots, he stopped screaming, and died �-Looked at the man's dog tags, and it was his good friend Paul (01�:11:43) Return Voyage to the United States -Sailed from Singapore to Batavia, Java -Dutch cruisers fought off the Japanese ships that followed the Wakefield -USS Houston was in the Java Sea -Lost at the Battle of Sunda Strait -Sailed to Colombo, Ceylon (now Sri Lanka) -First ship to pull into the harbor -Civilians were selling star sapphires for $1 each -He bought 20 or 30 of them, but lost them when he abandoned the Wakefield -Left Ceylon and sailed back to Bombay, India and got the ship repaired -Met an American dentist working in Bombay -Told Marshall he could have half of the practice after the war if he wanted -Always wonders what would have happened if he'd taken the offer -Saw the diverse mix of religions in India -Left Bombay and sailed back to Capetown -Anxious to get back to the United States -Sailed across the Atlantic Ocean -Passed through the Equator and received destroyer escorts back to America -Pulled into New York City on March 23, 1942 and greeted with ships saluting them with fire hoses -Sent to Philadelphia for repairs -Japanese said they sank the Wakefield -Obviously not true -Mother called the War Department to ask if it was true -War Department said yes, the ship sank, and Marshall was probably dead -When Marshall got back to the U.S. he called home -Mother always had hope the ship hadn't sank and Marshall survived -First group of troops back from the Pacific Theater -Learned about the fall of Allied territories in early 1942 -Given 10 to 15 days of leave -Told not to talk about his experiences for secrecy's sake (01:25:19) Transportation of Marines to Guadalcanal -Reported back to the USS Wakefield -Sailed to New Zealand with the 1st Marines which were sent to invade Guadalcanal -Sailed alone to New Zealand -Marines were healthier than the British soldiers, but the British troops were equally good fighters -British were a little more polite than the Marines, but Marines were also friendly -New Zealanders were friendly and hospitable (01:27:58) Convoy AT-18 -Sailed to England with a large convoy, AT-18, bound for Glasgow, Scotland -First major movement of American troops to England for service in the European Theater -Stopped in Belfast, Ireland -Pulled into Glasgow -A lot of Free French soldiers and Polish troops gathered there -Stayed in the city and got bedbugs (01:31:00) British Friend -Befriended a British soldier, Morris Barnes, while en route to Singapore -British soldier was captured at the fall of Singapore and made a prisoner of war -Kept in touch with the soldier's wife throughout the war �-Learned that the soldier died a week before Japan surrendered (01:32:20) Fire on the USS Wakefield -On the return voyage from Glasgow a fire alarm went off -Went to his fire station and grabbed as many first aid kits as he could -A fire broke out near the sickbay, but didn't know that -Fire had spread throughout the ship -Captain came to Marshall's fire station and told him to get off the ship before it sank -He abandoned ship and got picked up by the destroyer USS Mayo -Slept on the deck of the Mayo and used a first aid kit as a pillow -Examined the first aid kit and found it was filled with narcotics -Realized someone was trying to smuggle the drugs into the United States -Reported his discovery to the captain of the Mayo -Captain wanted nothing to do with it -Made sure he held onto the first aid kit -When he got back to the United States he was sent to Ellis Island for identification purposes -All of his records were lost in the fire on the Wakefield -Called a medical supply depot in Brooklyn to hand over the narcotics he'd found -Believes someone started the fire on the ship -Fire gutted the ship -He lost all of his personal effects -Got back to the United States in late September 1942 (01:40:55) Treatment of a General on the Wakefield -First patient he treated on the Wakefield was the general of the British 18th Infantry Division -Most likely Lt. General Arthur Percival, captured at the fall of Singapore -General loved having an American dentist work on his teeth -Invited Marshall to have a drink with the other British officers if he had time -Unfortunately, he was too busy with medical work to take up the invitation (01:42:27) Waiting in New York City -After reporting to Ellis Island he was sent to Pier 92 with only the clothes on his back -Finally got his records back -Volunteered for a work detail and got to see the 1942 World Series -Makeshift teams because all the major player were serving in the military -Conducted patrols, but got to watch the game (01:45:23) Commissioning the USS Arapaho (AT-68/ATF-68) -Sent to Charleston, South Carolina to commission the USS Arapaho, a fleet ocean tug -Arrived in Charleston around Thanksgiving 1942 -Ship was almost completed when he arrived -Helped a Navy doctor in the naval yard -Did a lot of the work -Charleston was a segregated and racially tense city -Black sailors were harassed -Residents of Charleston didn't like sailors regardless of race -Racist gangs tried to attack groups of black sailors returning to the naval yard -White sailors stood by the black sailors and fought off the racists -Strange for Marshall to witness -USS Arapaho was commissioned on January 20, 1943 (01:48:36) Shakedown Cruise on the USS Arapaho -Went to sea with a skeleton crew for the shakedown cruise -German submarine fired two torpedoes at the Arapaho �-Traveling light which meant they went underneath the bow; causing no damage -Returned to port -Captain Wootton had to be relieved of command because he couldn't handle the stress (01:50:12) Duty on the USS Arapaho -Got a new captain, C.B. Lee, with 30 years experience -Helped train the new officers -Got more of a crew and went out to sea for a couple days -Had his own surgery, pharmacy, and office near the officers' quarters -Worked on his own -130-140 enlisted men and 8 or 9 officers -Learned to disperse medical equipment rather than keep it in one spot like on the Wakefield -Inspected fresh food and food products coming onto the Arapaho -Cleaned fruits and vegetables from local sources -Kept track of canned food and dried food so it didn't spoil -In the Pacific Ocean temperatures on the ship reached 120 degrees -Slept on the deck when he could to escape the heat (01:55:10) Voyage to Casablanca-USS Arapaho -Sailed from Charleston to Key West, Florida to the submarine base there -Vice President Truman frequently visited Key West, but Marshall never met him -Ordered to sail to North Africa on March 19, 1943 -En route to North Africa they ran into a hurricane and had to stop in Bermuda -One of the ship's in the convoy had been left behind and the Arapaho went to recover it -Towed the ship back to Bermuda, only to learn it wasn't one of the convoy's ships -Happy coincidence for the ship stuck in the hurricane -Sailed from Bermuda to the Mediterranean Sea -Almost got sunk by a British torpedo plane -Stopped in Gibraltar -Italian divers tried to mine ships in the harbor -Used depth charges to kill and ward off the Italian frogmen (combat divers) -Pulled into Casablanca, Morocco to collect the USS Almaack (AKA-10) -While waiting for the ship he went ashore and tried to communicate with the French locals -The French laughed at him, not to be mean, but because his French was so proper -Towed the USS Almaack back to the United States -Sailed alone -Never attacked by U-Boats, but they were still a constant threat End of Part 1 Part 2 1 hour 50 minutes 27 seconds (00:00:16) Return to the United States from Casablanca -Returned to the United States after 15 days at sea -No change in clothing or showers during the return voyage (00:01:03) Operating around Funafuti -Sailed through the Panama Canal -Pulled into San Diego, California on July 15, 1943 to pick up a barge to tow to Pearl Harbor -Had escorts -Hauled ammunition barges around Funafuti �-Hundreds of pounds of bombs -Sometimes barges broke loose during rough weather -Men were injured by steel cables breaking -Japanese bombed the islands at night and out of reach of the antiaircraft guns -Sailed between the Ellice and Gilbert Islands -Japanese bombers targeted the runways on the islands and the aircraft on the runways -Not allowed to interact with the natives -Didn't spend much time ashore anyway -Whenever they got beer they shared it with the fighter pilots -In return, the pilots brought it up with them because it got chilled at the high altitudes (00:06:15) Pacific Theater Battles -Participated in the battles of Eniwetok, Kwajalein, and Makin -Assisted Carlson's Raiders (Marine Raiders) during a raid -Five of the men got left behind and were executed by the Japanese commanding officer -Arapaho served as a lookout ship before the raid -Got to the island a day early and had to wait until night to move in at the planned time -Japanese officer was captured and hanged at the end of the war (00:08:22) Battle of Tarawa Pt. 1 -Served as a chief pharmacist's mate during the Battle of Tarawa -November 20, 1943 through November 23, 1943 -Island was heavily defended -Fleet of 150 American ships poised to attack the island -17 aircraft carriers -12 battleships -Eight heavy cruisers -Four light cruisers -66 destroyers -36 transport ships -Arapaho was part of the ancillary fleet supporting the invasion -Prior to the invasion he saw Japanese bombers approaching the Arapaho -Reported his sighting to the bridge, but was ignored -Went back down into the ship and put on his “lucky dungarees” -Told the men around him to expect trouble -Returned to the deck and went to the 20mm antiaircraft cannon -Japanese bombers buzzed the ship and dropped depth charges to no effect -Wished he knew better how to use the cannon -They were gone before he got a shot off -Captain never apologized for doubting Marshall -Tarawa was only 800 yards across and about a square mile of actual fighting area -Misjudged the tide at the time of the invasion -Sent landing craft in while the tide was still out -Arapaho was at the point between Red Beach 2 and Red Beach 3 -Remembers that it was a massacre when the first wave went ashore -Navy bombarded the island before the invasion -Chased the Japanese across the island with a rolling bombardment -Japanese had constructed a concrete wall that not even the battleships could break -Japanese reacted quickly and set up machine guns on a concrete pier that extended off the shore -Marines attacking Red Beach 2 had to wade through debris while being shot at -Marines on the second wave knew what happened to the first wave �-Marines on the first wave either drowned or were killed by the machine guns -Only three men survived the first wave -Took a lot of casualties over the course of the invasion -Note: 1,696 men killed and 2,101 wounded in only three days -Had 15 gallons of grain alcohol -Distributed it among the Marines to try and raise their spirits before they invaded -Marines needed medics to go ashore to treat the wounded -He volunteered -He went ashore at Red Beach 3 -50 yards from the command post -Landscape was unbelievable -Found over a dozen dead Japanese soldiers with no apparent wounds -Most likely killed by the concussion from the artillery -Saw a Landing Ship, Tank (LST) being used as a Navy field hospital -Remembers one doctor having a nervous breakdown -Marshall went up to the doctor and put his arm around him -In retrospect, he feels he should have slapped the doctor -Not to be mean, but to get the man back to reality -He was suffering from “hysterical convulsions” -You start to believe in an alternate reality to escape trauma (00:27:15) Hysterical Convulsion -Taught to never give a sedative to a man experiencing hysterical convulsions -Near Makin he remembers the gun crews firing tracers at Japanese torpedo bombers -At night the tracers looked like they were coming at the gun crew and not away from them -Remembers one gun crewman believing he'd been hit by one of the rounds -Marshall was called to the gun crew to treat the wounded sailor -Saw the man had no apparent wounds and was having hysterical convulsions -Had to start slapping the man to get him out of the episode -Couldn't give him a sedative until he pulled out of the episode -Once the man was back to reality he could safely give him a sedative (00:32:12) Treating Burns -Most common wound at the start of the war was flash burns caused by bombs exploding -Originally used boric acid to treat burns -Found out that in large doses it was toxic -Moved on to using sulfa -Realized it was also toxic -At the end of the war used sugar water and wet dressings to treat burns -Successful and nontoxic (00:34:01) Battle of Tarawa Pt. 2 -On the fourth day at Tarawa the Arapaho towed a destroyer off the beach -All of the other ships had left Tarawa -Arapaho was the only ship left at the island -Had to account for nearly 5,000 Japanese corpses -Beaches were filled with decaying bodies -President Roosevelt finally allowed for pictures to be taken of the aftermath of the battle -Believed the American people needed to get used to seeing the cost of war -On the fifth day none of the bodies had been buried -Clouds of flies buzzed over the bodies of the dead -Had to use bulldozers to cover the bodies and create mass and unmarked graves �-As of 2015 efforts are finally being made to find the exact location of the bodies (00:38:44) Battles of the Northern Marianas Islands -Participated in the liberation of Guam, Saipan, and Tinian -Had a lot of new firefighting seamen on board -Majority of the men had received courts-martial -Given two choices: jail or hazardous duty -Some of the finest men he ever served with (00:41:05) Battle of Kwajalein -Participated in the battle of Kwajalein -January 31, 1944 to February 3, 1944 -Known as “Execution Island” -Found a couple British prisoners of war -Had been tied to poles on the Japanese airfield to deter American attacks on the airfield -Survived the bombardment of the island and the subsequent battle -He brought them back to the Arapaho and gave them showers and new clothes -To show their appreciation they gave Marshall a handcrafted grass token -Their only possession and they wanted him to have it -Took a lot of casualties at Kwajalein, but not nearly as bad as Tarawa -142 killed and 845 wounded at Kwajalein as opposed to the nearly 4,000 casualties at Tarawa -Battle of Tarawa is considered one of the bloodiest battles of the Pacific Theater (00:46:40) Duties in the Pacific Theater -Towed an aircraft carrier to Pearl Harbor -Escorted the aircraft carrier USS Makin -Arapaho had depth charges and a three inch gun for defense -Steamed in the wake of the Makin -Easier travel in rough weather -When in harbors they towed ships to various places (00:48:20) Ulithi -Got to the island of Ulithi in late summer/early fall 1944 -Could have put the entire Pacific Fleet at Ulithi -Idea was to use Ulithi as the eventual staging area for the invasion of Japan -Still within reach of Japanese planes and submarines -Japanese used suicide torpedoes called kaiten -One was used to sink the USS Mississinewa on November 20, 1944 at Ulithi -Filled out four death reports for four of the men found in the water -Found one body with the head sheered off -Later found out it was the Japanese pilot of the torpedo -Buried with dignity -Between November 4 and 10, 1944 they helped the USS Zuni tow the USS Reno to Ulithi -The Reno was the sister ship of the USS Juneau and had been torpedoed on November 3 -Arapaho left Ulithi and joined a task force (00:54:14) Mutiny on the Arapaho and Problems with the Captain -Remembers being called to the bridge where a group of officers were waiting -One of the officers, Alexander Turak, asked Marshall what he thought of the captain -Captain was drunk and had a severe drinking problem -Marshall invoked Article 184, citing the captain was mentally unfit to command the ship -Able to order the captain off the bridge because he was drunk -Kept the captain in his room for three or four days until they reached Ulithi -Once they reached Ulithi Marshall let the captain out of his room �-Prior to the mutiny, the captain referred to Mr. Turak as “Jew Boy” and “Christ Killer” -Note: Mr. Turak was a Jewish officer -Turak told the captain he'd turn him over to his superiors if he endangered the ship and its crew again -In retaliation, the captain made sure Turak had bad jobs on the ship -Marshall wanted to get off the Arapaho, but couldn't leave until his replacement came aboard -Had to wait until November 24, 1944 -Captain never directed any animosity toward Marshall -The novel, The Caine Mutiny, was written after the war and based on the incident on the Arapaho -Prior to the mutiny, the captain issues courts-martial for two sailors for allegedly stealing peaches -Captain claimed the men were going into the storeroom and taking peaches -Ruling came back 'not guilty' -One reason was the men were allotted a ration of peaches -So the men charged with stealing were only getting their ration on their own -Other reason is technically they were breaking and entering, not stealing -Marshall kept a bottle of medicinal brandy on board -Gave a shot to the divers to calm their nerves after they completed a dive -Captain decided he wanted the bottle of brandy, and naturally, Marshall couldn't do that -Captain ordered Marshall to get a second bottle of brandy so he could have a bottle -Marshall complied only because he feared arbitrary punishment from the captain (01:08:22) Aiding Civilians -Helped a young man, named Jesus Cruz, who was from Guam, go ashore to visit his village -Came from a troubled family life -Regrets letting him go ashore (01��:10:11) Medical Duties -At one point met up with the doctor from the USS Wakefield -Met on the doctor's new ship, USS Cascade -Talked about his service on the USS Arapaho -Told him about how he had had to euthanize his best friend at Keppel Harbor -Asked the doctor what his extent of liability was as a medical officer on a ship -Meaning, how much leeway was he given if he made a mistake -Doctor told him there was no extent of liability given the circumstances -Basically, do the best you can with the skill and resources available to you -Whenever they participated in an invasion Marshall would treat wounded ground troops (01:14:10) Postwar Trauma Pt. 1 -The war was difficult, but dealing with the effects of the war was more difficult -Can't explain to his sons what he experienced during the war -Still wakes up in the middle of the night, haunted by the memories of the war (01:15:12) Transfer to USS Enterprise (CV-6) -Marshall was relieved from the USS Arapaho on November 24, 1944 when his replacement arrived -Captain thanked him for his service, but was happy to have Marshall off the ship -With Marshall gone the captain could deal with Mr. Turak without Marshall's interference -Transferred to the USS Enterprise -Worked in the aircraft carrier's air-conditioned sickbay -Would go up on the flight deck to watch planes take off for missions -Offered the chance to go on a training flight over the islands of Truk and Yap -Initially accepted the offer, but then decided not to go on the flight -Knew he was close to getting home and didn't want to get killed (01:18:07) Flying -After the war he went on a flight with a civilian pilot �-Flew over Lake Michigan -When they landed the pilot confessed that he'd forgotten to take the blocks off the plane -Meant the pilot had very little control of the plane -Took flying lessons and got his pilot's license -Stopped flying after a flight during the winter (01:19:56) Service at Brooklyn Naval Hospital -After returning to the United States he was assigned to the Brooklyn Naval Hospital -Boss was John McCormick -Had great duty at the naval hospital -Largely because he'd served under McCormick at Great Lakes Naval Station -Had a good relationship with him while at Great Lakes (01:21:30) Service with John McCormick -At the Great Lakes Naval Station dispensary there were a lot of reserve officers -One officer came from Michigan -Prior to the war they went to the University of Michigan -Conducted physicals for the Navy's college training programs -Marshall helped process the lab work for potential recruits -Officer from Michigan pulled out half a dozen urine samples before they were processed -Said they weren't fit for service -Marshall discovered those samples were from Jewish men -From the University of Michigan they went to Northwestern University -Officer pulled out Jewish urine samples again -After that Marshall reported the officer's behavior to John McCormick -After the war he was working in medical supply and ran into the anti-Semitic officer -Learned that McCormick had called out the officer after Marshall joined the USS Wakefield -John served as Marshall's mentor -While at the Brooklyn Naval Hospital John told Marshall that he felt Marshall deserved better duty -Three or four weeks later John received orders for Hunter College in Bronx -Training station for thousands of WAVES (women in the Naval Reserve) -He'd be one of only about a dozen men at the college (01:29:18) Service at Hunter College -Commander's name was Helen Jacobs -In charge of medical inventory at Hunter College -Discovered the college was missing medical equipment -The doctors at Hunter College had their own private practices on the side -They were most likely taking medical equipment for their own practices -Alerted the Brooklyn Medical Supply Depot -War was nearing its end -Offered a commission if he helped with medical inventory in the Pacific Theater -Knew it would be stressful and exhausting work to inventory equipment -Declined the offer for that reason and because he wanted to go home -Had 150 women under his command at Hunter College -Learned that he had to communicate with women differently than men -And older woman mentored Marshall at Hunter College -Remembers going on a date with a former Women's Army Corps volunteer -While at dinner he received a call from the older woman mentoring him -Told him the girl he was on a date with was pregnant, so be careful -He was the only male chief at Hunter College -Whenever he walked in the dining hall all of the women watched him walk to the officer's hall �-Couldn't yell at the women like he yelled at men (01:38:00) Life after the War -Note: Discharged from the Navy on October 8, 1945 -After he got out of the Navy he returned to Michigan, met his wife, and got married -Had three sons -Attended the University of Michigan -Had a hard time adjusting -Wanted to go to medical school, but still had to do pre-med school -Already 25 years old -Didn't want to take four years to go through pre-med school -Had forgotten how to study (01:39:42) Postwar Trauma Pt. 2 -Knew he had psychological trauma from the war -Tried to go to the VA Hospital for treatment shortly after he returned to civilian life -No help -Doctors were treating patients and also, essentially, running the hospital -More concerned with maintaining their position than treating patients -Negative environment -Doctors were suspicious of new patients -Difficult to get into the hospital for treatment -Learned later the better option was to just go to a public hospital for treatment -More convenient for him now -Hardest part of the war was not the war itself, but living with the memories of the war -One of his sons and daughter-in-law lives across the street and help him -Never got a chance to talk about his experiences until recently -Being a part of a group of veterans in St. Joseph, Michigan has been helpful Part 2 ends at 01:47:46 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_DoakM1906V Title A name given to the resource Doak, Marshall (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-12-03 Description An account of the resource Marshall Doak was born in Sturgis, Michigan on March 3, 1921. He enlisted in the Navy on November 9, 1938 and went to Naval Station Newport, Rhode Island for basic training. He served aboard the USS Salt Lake City then went to Hospital Corps School in San Diego, California in late 1939. He trained at Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois and served in the urological ward at Norfolk Naval Hospital. From Norfolk he returned to Great Lakes Naval Station to work in the dispensary then got assigned to the USS Wakefield. In November 1941 the Wakefield joined a convoy in Canada and helped secretly transport 5,500 British troops to Singapore before the United States entered the war. By the time they dropped off the troops, Pearl Harbor had been bombed and the U.S. was in the war. He served aboard the Wakefield until Thanksgiving 1942 when he was reassigned to the USS Arapaho. Aboard the Arapaho he served as the ship's doctor. Through the summer of 1943 the ship operated in the Pacific Theater and during the Battle of Tarawa he went ashore to treat Marine casualties. He also participated in the liberation of the in liberation of Eniwetok, Kwajalein, Makin, and the Northern Marianas Islands. He experienced a quasi-mutiny on the USS Arapaho before being transferred to the USS Enterprise on November 24, 1944. He returned to the United States and served at Brooklyn Naval Hospital and Hunter College before being discharged on October 8, 1945. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doak, Marshall Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4e4b329fbb88cdfe162621b7d45d8ec8.m4v 2be91ad71ce8c6d4bf6d6b5007ec9596 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a510e7fbf8a0ba47913240c5b06a12df.pdf 3637091abc94418ff3f66adefed3c2f0 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Bernard DePrimo World War II 1 hour 14 minutes 35 seconds (00:00:10) Early Life -Born in Jefferson County, Pennsylvania -Lived there for two years -Moved to Detroit, Michigan -Father's mine in Pennsylvania had gone down -Father had started working in the mines when he was only nine years old -Born in 1924 -Moved to Detroit in 1926 -Went to Sacred Heart Catholic School for eight years -Went to Detroit Catholic Central High School for four years -Graduated in 1942 -Father worked for Cadillac for one year -Went on to work for the railroad -Had steady work through the Great Depression -Had a sister (00:02:05) Pearl Harbor -Friend's father was the city editor for the News -He was at his friend's house listening to a football game on the radio -Friend's father called up and told them about the attack on Pearl Harbor -Prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor the war had had little effect on him (00:03:09) College and Getting Drafted -In fall 1942 he started studying at the University of Detroit -Had one semester there -One month into the second semester he received his draft notice -Early 1943, most likely February 1943 -Had to report on March 2, 1943 for a draft physical -Passed that and was given a week of leave -Reported again on March 9, 1943 -Taken to Fort Custer, Michigan -Processed, tested, and given uniforms there -Stayed there for three days (00:04:28) Training -Sent to Camp Davis, North Carolina -Went through basic training there -Trained with the 430th Anti Aircraft Artillery Battalion -Everyone training at Camp Davis was going to go into an anti aircraft unit -Had six weeks of standard basic training -Exercises and long marches -Camp Davis was on the east side of the state �-Went to Fort Fisher, North Carolina for anti aircraft training with anti aircraft guns -Close to Wilmington -Spent Easter 1943 in Wilmington -Emphasis on discipline and following orders -Sergeants training them came from the northeast and were experienced with anti aircraft guns -Got along well with them -Sergeants and officers training them would be their commanders overseas -He was in communications -Communications sergeant had served for twelve years -He wasn't a strict man -Didn't see the need for the men to be overly disciplined -Didn't have any problems with adjusting to the Army -Had a good mess sergeant and mess crew -Able to eat civilian food instead of Army food -On Sunday morning you could order your breakfast however you wanted it -There were about 500 men in the 430th AAA Battalion -He was in C Battery -Had guns, but also communication personnel -Communication personnel laid wire so that the gun crews could communicate with each other -Also laid wire between the gun crews and headquarters -He also learned how to drive trucks -They were a mobile unit so everyone had to learn how to drive -Meant they could advance with the rest of the ground forces -Stayed at Camp Davis and Fort Fisher until late August 1943 (00:14:28) Deployment Pt. 1 -Given an eleven day leave before deploying -Reported to Fort Devens, Massachusetts -Stayed in old, brick buildings for three weeks -Building they had been in had been used by the Women's Army Corps -Meant that they didn't have any urinals (00:15:12) Downtime during Training -After the first six weeks of training they were allowed to leave the base -There wasn't much to do in Wilmington -Could play golf -Could go to a town near Fort Bragg -Given a three day pass and got to visit Washington D.C. -Had a half day on Saturday and Sundays off -Able to spend a lot of time on the beach -Noticed the segregation in the South -Expected to see it going in (00:17:32) Deployment Pt. 2 -Planned to ship out of Boston -Sent to Camp Myles Standish, Massachusetts for one week �-Boarded a converted British cruise ship on October 22, 1943 -Joined a convoy -Arrived in Cardiff, Wales -Had one bad storm on the voyage over -Storm got bad enough that the stern would rise out of the water -Didn't do much on the ship -Most men played cards to pass the time -A lot of men got seasick -He didn't -Didn't have any U-Boat scares -Took ten, or eleven, days to cross the Atlantic Ocean (00:20:19) Stationed in England -Unloaded at Cardiff and then went to Liverpool, England -Stationed at a small town outside of Liverpool named Huyton -The first thing they had to do was take the Cosmoline off the anti aircraft guns -Cosmoline: Protective grease put on the guns to protect them from corrosion -Stayed in Huyton for about one month -Moved to RAF Burtonwood -Set up their guns there -Stationed there for a while -In March 1944 they travelled to Somerset -Stayed there until D-Day (June 6, 1944) -On the eve of D-Day they drove to Southampton -Could see planes taking off and heading for Europe -Knew something big was happening (00:24:12) Downtime in England -Able to drive around and explore England -He would drive the platoon commander out to see where the guns could be set up -Wasn't difficult to adjust to driving in England because there wasn't much traffic -Got to visit London while in Somerset -Only got do that once -Spent one, or two, nights there -Visited local pubs and saw the Tube -Saw evidence of the Blitz -English were very welcoming of Americans -Some English soldiers were annoyed by the American presence, but not hostile (00:27:17) Crossing to France -In Southampton for two nights -Loaded onto a ship and crossed the English Channel -Arrived on June 8 (or June 9) and anchored off shore for a couple days -Troops on the ground were wiping out the last of the German resistance -Luftwaffe still came over at night -Some of the gun crews manned the ship's guns and fired at the enemy planes -Unloaded personnel and material over the side of the ship -Had cranes to unload vehicles �-Personnel climbed down cargo nets into landing craft -Landed at Omaha Beach -On June 11 there was still a lot of debris -Bodies had been cleared off the beach (00:29:54) Advancing through France -Drove up to Colleville-sur-Mer, France -Spent the first night there -Had four different positions in three days -Changed positions sometimes twice a day -Within the first week some planes went over that they shot at -Unfortunately one was a British plane -It had been following a German plane and flew straight through the flak -Fortunately, the pilot only sustained broken legs -Only one, or two, German planes would show up at a time -Remembers during one Sunday Mass being interrupted by German planes -For the first few weeks they didn't leave their positions -Saw some French civilians, but not many -Set up in the countryside in open areas -On June 21, 1944 they moved into a chateau in Beuzeville-la-Bastille -Headquarters was set up in the chateau -Slept near the hedgerows near their gun positions -Shot a German paratrooper out of the sky that had been separated from his unit -Received very little news of the war -Operated a switchboard in headquarters -Saw a map showing the progress of the Allied advance -Stayed in Beuzeville from June 21, 1944 to July 22, 1944 -Laying wire to one of the other guns -Got back to camp at night and heard rifle fire and artillery fire -Moved to Saint Come du Mont, then Saint Marie du Mont, then Carentan -On August 2, 1944 they moved through St. Lo -Kept moving east after the Allied break out in July 1944 -By August 22, 1944 they were just west of Chartres (00:38:26) Red Ball Express -The Red Ball Express needed more personnel -Red Ball Express: A truck convoy system used to supply the Allies in France -He was sent to join the 110th Field Artillery Battalion -This was because their trucks were already being used for the Red Ball Express -Got to go into Paris as part of the supply operation -Ran supplies from Normandy to units around Paris -Did a lot of driving that wasn't part of the Red Ball Express -Got up to Belgium -Transporting German prisoners of war -Traveled in convoys -Drove with a driving partner -After one supply run they tried to visit Paris again �-Ran out of gas though -Driving one time on a French road -A farmer and his cow were walking on the side of the road -Cow stepped and the truck caught part of the cow slamming it into the truck -Cow defecated everywhere, but was unharmed -Found a bugle -He and his partner would drive through towns while his partner played La Marseillaise -Lived on K rations and C rations -Sometimes subsisted on only coffee for days at a time -Had to be careful when they made coffee because they used a blowtorch to heat it -Did supply runs sporadically through the end of the war -At the end of the war he helped transport Allied prisoners of war and displaced persons (00:47:33) Advance into Germany -For the rest of fall 1944 they were around the Dutch-German border -He had rejoined the 430th AAA Battalion -After Thanksgiving 1944 they received orders to move into Germany -Set up outposts in Germany around Christmas 1944 -Their sector was quiet during the Battle of the Bulge -Most fighting was happening south of their position -Aware of the Battle of the Bulge though -Stationed in a barbershop in Alsdorf, Germany -Had a radio outpost set up on the roof -Even had a Christmas tree -Received orders on December 23, 1944 to move to Stolberg, Germany -Protecting a 150mm artillery gun -That gun's crew was firing into the Bulge -Stayed in Stolberg through January and into early February (00:50:54) Evidence of the War -Aachen and Julich had been severely damaged by the war -Streetlights still worked in Julich, but most of the buildings had been damaged -Some areas had not been as heavily damaged, or damaged at all -Could go to movie theatres -Could meet local girls -Could attend Mass on Sunday mornings -Many of the people they encountered were grateful to be liberated, but not openly friendly -Wasn't any German aircraft activity while in Stolberg -Told that if German forces attacked Stolberg they were to hold their position -40mm anti-aircraft guns would have been effective against infantry and "soft" vehicles -Totally ineffective against tanks and other armored vehicles (00:53:46) German Jet Planes and Rockets -Saw German jet planes later in the war �-At one of the gun positions he saw one fly over -Outside of Maastricht he saw a V-2 rocket come down only 300 yards from his position -Made a crater that was twenty feet deep -Some men in his unit had been wounded due to the blast -Concussion had blown out windows in a nearby building and caused lacerations (00:56:12) Casualties -His battery only had one man killed in action -Happened while in Beuzeville, France -An 88mm German shell exploded over where a man was sleeping -Killed him instantly -Had some accidents with Thompson submachine guns (00:57:36) Discipline Issues -Never had any problems with theft -Never heard of any black market activity -Never bought any food, alcohol, or souvenirs from civilians -Everyone was focused on doing their jobs (00:58:20) End of the War -Got up to the Rhine River in early spring 1945 -Crossed on a pontoon bridge -Didn't see many prisoners of war or displaced persons until the war was basically over -Displaced persons were shabby looking, but otherwise healthy -Mostly refugees from Eastern Europe and Germany heading west -On May 5, 1945 they were in Monchengladbach, Germany -Had been liberated by the 29th Infantry Division -Found an intact wine cellar -Next day transported the 29th Infantry Division south -Stopped in a small town that had been a summer resort before the war -Headquarters was set up in one of the resort buildings -Got to sleep in a building and in a soft bed -Crossed the Elbe River for a couple hours then received orders to go back -In Gross Rosenburg from April 22, 1945 to May 10, 1945 -There on May 8, 1945 when Germany surrendered (01:04:14) Post-War Occupation Duty -On May 10 drove down to Schlitz -Lived in houses -Stayed there for a while -Some men qualified to go home -He was reassigned to the 203rd (or 207th) Field Artillery Battalion -Spent two or three weeks with them -Could visit the town that they were in -Saw USO Shows and go to the Red Cross station -Guarding an ammunition depot -Relaxing duty (01:08:15) Coming Home and End of Service -Moved down to Reims, France �-Drove to Lyon -Then took trains to the Mediterranean coast of France -Boarded a Victory Ship in Marseilles on October 12, 1945 -Spent most of his time in his bunk -One of his friends was doing KP duty, so he would bring Bernard ice cream -Had good weather on the voyage back to the United States -Arrived in Norfolk, Virginia -Sent to Camp Patrick Henry, Virginia -Spent a few days there -Sent up to Fort Indiantown Gap, Pennsylvania -Discharged from there on October 31, 1945 (01:11:01) Life after the War -Went to Aquinas College in Grand Rapids, Michigan on the GI Bill -Had a girlfriend that lived in Grand Rapids -Visited her and then enrolled for the winter 1946 semester at Aquinas -Went to the University of Notre Dame Graduate School and got a master of arts in philosophy -Taught philosophy for the rest of his life -Taught at a Catholic college in Oklahoma -Too difficult because there wasn't a very large Catholic population -Taught at Mercy College in Detroit -Taught at Aquinas College in Grand Rapids, Michigan -Taught at Grand Rapids Community College in Grand Rapids, Michigan -Did that for eighteen years (01:13:20) Reflections on Service -Taught him that he didn't want to be an engineer -Learned to take things slowly and calmly -Grew up (01:13:57) Vietnam War -Didn't see much anti-war activity at the colleges he taught at during the Vietnam War -Knew young men were fleeing to Canada -Colleges he taught at weren't hotbeds of anti-war activity � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_DePrimoB1768V Title A name given to the resource DePrimo, Bernard (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-05-20 Description An account of the resource Bernard DePrimo was born in 1924 in Jefferson County, Pennsylvania. He grew up in Detroit, Michigan and in early 1943 he was drafted. In March 1943 he began training at Camp Davis, North Carolina with the 430th Anti Aircraft Artillery Battalion. He received communication training and artillery training at Camp Davis and Fort Fisher until it was time to go overseas. He left the United States on October 22, 1943 bound for England and stayed there with the 430th until June 8, 1944. Over the course of 1944 and into 1945 he and the 430th advanced across France protecting Allied ground forces from the German Luftwaffe. He was also attached to the 110th Field Artillery Battalion driving trucks as part of the Red Ball Express, transporting supplies and later German and Allied prisoners of war and displaced persons. After the war ended on May 8, 1945 he was reassigned to the 203rd (or 207th) Field Artillery Battalion and stayed with them for the rest of his time in Europe. On October 12, 1945 he left Europe and on October 31, 1945 he was discharged from the Army at Fort Indiantown Gap, Pennsylvania. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource DePrimo, Bernard Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/88e5efcbe35790233455fffc4db3f699.m4v f51f2ab724c2d72626791e7a36b1ec99 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8dadfbef4556577e3f7d6af0c3acf0df.pdf 5e81235c9e5a3582e0e33d94a3c22854 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Veteran: William Wall Interviewer: James Smither Transcribed by Rebecca Doran Interview length: 50:00 [0:00] James Smither: We’re talking today with William Wall of Bridgman, Michigan. The interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Start us off with some background on yourself. And to begin with, where and when were you born? William Wall: 2/11/24 in Hope, Michigan. JS: Now what part of Michigan is that in? WW: Midland County. North of Midland, just below ____. JS: So, lower peninsula. East of Lansing. Now did you grow up there, or did you move around? WW: I grew up in Midland, but Hope was a farm. And my folks lived in Midland, and then they moved to the farm, and then they moved back to Midland. The farm is still in the family. JS: Why were you moving back and forth? Did your father change jobs? WW: My grandparents bought 120 acres in Hope with a barn, a home, and my mother and father went there to live and farm. And my dad found out he was not a farmer. He scratched out a living but that was about all. I don’t know the date, but Dow Chemical company was starting out, and he went to Midland to get a job and they hired him, so we went to Midland to live. JS: Did you go to high school in Midland? WW: Yes. JS: And did you graduate from high school? WW: Yes. JS: Before that though, do you remember how you heard about Pearl Harbor? �WW: No. I really don’t. I don’t. JS: Okay. I just ask that. Most people do, but not everyone. On the other hand, once that does happen, how did the start of the war affect the community, the school, or anything like that? WW: I guess I don’t… JS: Were a lot of people now going off to enlist in the military? WW: My brother, he enlisted. But my next-door neighbor, my folks, was on the draft board in Midland. And I wanted to enlist. When he’d come over and talk to my dad, and I was there. And he said, “Jim. Don’t let him enlist.” He said, “I need a quota, and I want him on the quota.” It was a case of he needed bodies, and I was one of them, so I just waited for them to draft me. JS: When did you get drafted? WW: In August. I don’t know the date; I know the month was August. JS: Was it August of ’43? WW: Yup. JS: So, by then you’re 19? WW: Yup. JS: When had you graduated from high school? WW: ’43. JS: So, it’s only just a couple of months between finishing high school… WW: Two months. JS: When you’re drafted, what branch of service did they put you in? WW: Navy. JS: Where did they send you for your training? WW: Chicago. �JS: To Great Lakes? WW: Yup. Great Lakes. JS: So, north of the city itself…. And what was Navy boot-camp like? WW: I really don’t…. A hundred guys there, you know? It was only just a couple of months. We didn’t learn anything. It was just existing and getting the uniform. [4:47] JS: Did they have you do marching? WW: Oh yeah! We did march. But that would be about the only thing. JS: Did the Navy teach you how to tie knots? WW: Yeah. JS: Did they teach you firefighting or put you in a room full of smoke? WW: Nope. Oh, yes! They gave us a gas mask and had us go through a room that had something in it. Tear gas! And I do remember that because the guy in front of me that used the gas mask that I used got the stuff inside of it and when I put it on, it was just terrible. JS: So, you were sharing gas masks? WW: Oh yeah! JS: And how hard or easy was it for you to adjust to life in the military? WW: No problem at all! In fact, my dad was worried about me because I was fairly young. He came down to Great Lakes to see me, and spent maybe two or three hours with me, and then come back home and tell my mother that, “Don’t worry about him! He’s got it, and he’s okay!” JS: But still, it’s a pretty short time. You’re only there a couple of months. So where do you go next? WW: San Clemente Island. I took a train, and a hundred other guys, and we went to San Diego. �JS: Do you remember anything about the train ride? WW: Yeah. JS: What was that like? WW: It was crowded. And they would stop real often to get water…usually in a town. All the towns people would come out because all the service men were hanging out the window, putting their name and address on a piece of paper, handing it out. And I didn’t do that. JS: Were you able to get off the train at all? WW: Yeah. Well, you got off, but they kept pretty close tabs on you, you didn’t get very far away. But they would let you off to walk around a little bit, and then they’d round you back up. JS: Did you get any sleep on the train? WW: Yeah, we must have. JS: But you didn’t have Pullman Cars, you were just in the regular seats? WW: Well, those seats would pull down, but then there’d only be room for two, but if they were up, there was room for four, so they were up. You sleep sitting up. JS: About how long did the train trip take? WW: You know that’s something I have no idea! Because they didn’t go straight. They went north. And of course, everyone was always wondering where we were going. And you would wake up in the morning and the sun would be on one side of the train, wake up the next morning and it’d be on the other side of the train, so we were going zig-zag. Of course, when we got to the mountains, I pretty well figured it out that we were going to the west coast. [9:04] JS: So where is San Clemente Island? WW: It’s 70 miles off the coast of San Diego, just south of Catalina. Catalina is known because it was a resort and there are people there year-round. San Clemente was a naval base and an air base. The military, they owned the whole thing. JS: There’s no town there? There’s no civilians? �WW: No. Just sailors and marines. JS: So, when you got there then, what kind of facilities did you have? Where were you sleeping…? WW: They had a base built. There were barracks, and I’ll call it an entertainment center, and a galley, and showers, and toilets. It was pretty well put together. And a BOQ. It was ready. In fact, it had some houses on it, for the officers that had wives. Those that didn’t lived in the BOQ. JS: BOQ? What does that stand for? WW: Bachelor’s Officers’ Quarters. JS: But you’re just an enlisted man, so you’re just in the regular barracks? WW: Yeah, just the regular barracks. JS: What was your job there? WW: When I first go there I was just a seaman. I’d sweep the floor, wash the windows. But then they found out I was a new carpenter, and knew how to turn a table saw on and off. You can go to the carpenter shop! And then I had a fellow I went to school with who graduated. He was there with me too. He was a Finnish carpenter, and he recommended I get into the carpenter shop. [11:25] JS: So, what does a carpenter on a naval base do? WW: Repair windows, screens. Build whatever they needed. But the big job was making picture frames, believe it or not! Every officer wanted a picture frame. Of course, the island had a lot of abalone. Abalone, the shell, is real pretty on the inside. JS: Yeah, it’s like a mother-of-pearl kind of thing. WW: I was on the lobster crew, and they used abalone for bait for the lobsters. The lobsters would eat the bait, and there would be that shell. I would bring them back to the carpenter shop. And they would cut that in strips and inlay it into a piece of wood and then sand it smooth, and that would make a picture frame. Real pretty! Of course, every officer there wanted you to make one, two, three, can you make me another one?! They would also make suitcases, suitcases out of plywood. They were nice. They were pretty �and finished nice. If you didn’t, you had a sea bag when you went to shore. That didn’t cut it. JS: So, you had a wooden suitcase instead? WW: We made a lot of suitcases, yup. The guys would go ashore and buy handles, hinges, and little caps to go on the corners. They’d bring them back in a little bag and say, “Make me a suitcase.” [13:40] JS: What was the main function of the naval base there? What was going on there? WW: Well, several. One thing was, the navy used it for bombardment. The island was 27 miles long and 4 miles wide. The south end of it was nothing. But the navy would drop off some, whatever, workers, unbeknownst to us. They didn’t go through us or go near us, but they would build bunkers like what the Japanese had. They would be replicas of what they had. And those boys with the big guns would be out of sight, but you could hear them. And they would shell those bunkers to see what damage they could do to them from what distance, and whether they could hit them or not. That was one thing. The other thing was we had a real good rifle range. In fact, it was a ranger base at one time. The rifle range was excellent. And of course, the navy still wanted to use it. And the dock wasn’t deep enough for any large ships, so they would anchor out and bring them a crew, a few at a time, and we would take them up to the rifle range, and they would practice shooting. They had real nice targets. Pull down, back up. It was state of the art at the time. [15:57] JS: And there was also an air force base there? WW: There was an air force base there, but I think they had maybe two, or three, or four airplanes. It wasn’t anything. It was just, I’m assuming, just in case Japanese would get that far. JS: Did they have patrol planes, or were they fighters, or do you not know what they were? WW: Well, they had two PBYs that I knew of, and the other two or three, I don’t know what they were, I don’t remember. But I do remember the PBYs because we would, our liberty crew…. It took all day to go from San Clemente Island to San Diego, but if you could catch an airplane…. So, occasionally, we’d catch a PBY and they’d be going into San Diego or one of the ports, and I caught them a few times, you know. �JS: So, how often could you actually get back to the mainland? WW: Every two weeks. Every two weeks we had five days off. Now, give or take, that doesn’t come out right. We had three or four liberty groups, so there was always one crew on shore. And they would come back on an old, old, old ____. Moosehead was the name of it. IX 98. They put the IX on it because it was decommissioned a couple of times. That’s the thing we rode back and forth, and it took most of the day to get back and forth. And they brought supplies – water – for the crew, for us. JS: Did the island not have fresh water? WW: No. They had water. It had a steep shoreline – it was like a mountain. And they had built a cement pad, and the down-side of it had a drain, and it drained into a homemade cistern. That water was used for showers, or whatever. But the drinking water came from San Diego. It took them all day to pump it. That was that. After…Maybe I was there a short period of time, don’t know just how long, they had some new sailors come. But they didn’t talk to us. They were by themselves. They had their own barracks. They did eat with us, but like a group, they all sat with themselves. As a young kid, I didn’t think anything of it. And even at the time, they had a thing on the roof that kept turning. I didn’t think anything of it. No body did, you know. What the hell are they trying to do? Well, it was radar at its infancy. They had started, and of course, it was an ideal place because they didn’t have any communications. No workers coming in and spying on them. It was really an ideal set up. [20:32] JS: Well, by this time, we were using a lot of radar. It was on naval ships, but still, it was a logical place for a radar station. And this may have been fairly advanced one. WW: It was what? JS: It may have been an advanced technology. We had radar for a while already, by the time you were in the Navy. They’re expanding it…. WW: Well, yeah. I’m assuming it just started because the building was already there. Where else but a private place like that where nobody could…they could have it twirling, and no body would wonder what it was, other than the sailors. I suppose they didn’t talk. JS: But they’re not talking to you? They’re not telling you about what they’re doing? WW: No. And the sailors that were in that program, they didn’t talk to us much either. It was kind of off by itself. �JS: How much information did you have about how the rest of the war was going? You’re in your own little world on this island here. WW: Oh yeah. But every two weeks, we went to shore. And within five days you could drink a lot of booze, and you could chase a lot of women, and if you’re lucky, you could find your way back. JS: When you went ashore, did you stay on one of the naval bases in San Diego, or were you turned loose? WW: No, no, no. First thing you did was jump on a train, head for L.A. Train rides were free. You just jump on and go, and when you got where you wanted to go, you just jump off, you didn’t have to ask anybody or pay anybody. It was just on and off. Free! Free ride! JS: So, there was more to do in L.A. then in San Diego? WW: Pardon? JS: There was more to do in L.A. then in San Diego? WW: Oh yeah! The competition in San Diego…. You know, there were a hundred thousand sailors there, with all the ships coming in and docking. One air craft carrier, you know how many sailors could come off that. We didn’t even slow down. Just got off the ship and catch the first ride to…. [23:36] JS: So, what would you do in L.A.? WW: Now that’s a silly question to ask a sailor! JS: There are different answers… WW: We chased a lot of women! A lot of them! Catch a few…. You’d usually get a hotel room with four guys. Two beds, four guys. Back then, a hotel room was maybe $10, so for two or three days, it was real expensive. And we didn’t stay in the best hotels either. You went with the low end! JS: And you spend a lot of time somewhere else? WW: Yeah, yeah. You’re right! �JS: When you were there, there were famous places for service men: Hollywood Canteen, things like that. Did you go to any of those? WW: I tried. Several times I tried to go to that Hollywood Canteen, but there was always so many people there, so many sailors, soldiers. You’d stand outside and wait to get in. I guess we got in once, and it was elbow to elbow. And that wasn’t fun, so we left. I never went back. I gave that up as a bad deal. JS: Now out on the island, what kind of entertainment did they have for you? WW: I was kind of a businessman, you might say, in my youth. They had a bowling alley with four lanes, and I ran that. Then they had a lobster crew. The admiral of the 11 th Naval District liked lobsters. He sent out a boat and wanted us to catch him some lobsters. Of course, that island had a lot of lobsters. They were just all over the place. Depending on the weather…. Of course, the carpenter shop, we made the traps. If the weather was good, we’d get a lot of lobsters, but if the weather was bad, we’d caught hell because the admiral would be right on the radio wanting to know where his lobsters were. They tried to explain to him that the weather’s been bad, and he didn’t buy that. He wanted lobsters. And he paid a whopping $1.50 a dozen. Of course, it was his boat, his gas, his time. So, it wasn’t so bad. [27:17] JS: Would you go out on the lobster boat? Or did you just make the traps? WW: We had to go out at I think 5:00 in the morning. Because, of course, we had to get back and eat breakfast, and stand muster, and do our normal work. This lobster deal was after work. But it paid good. I don’t remember how many were on it, but we had to have two crews because of this liberty deal. And then we had a cook, and he’d boil the lobsters, so he had to get in on it. JS: So, you didn’t have a lobster tank where you’d keep them for a while? You would just cook them right away? WW: No. We’d bring the lobsters in and he’d boil them. I suppose they’d fly them to San Diego. I don’t know. JS: So, the admiral is not there on the island with you? He’s back in San Diego? WW: Yeah. He’s in San Diego. He’s got some friends back there that like lobsters. We have to feed them. The radio would just bounce, and the weather was bad. They’d try to explain to him that…the five foot, six foot waves out there. Why can’t you just go to the other side of the island? That doesn’t work. �JS: Did you get to keep any of the lobsters for yourself? WW: Yeah. Yup. We had a little burner in the woodshop and a pot, and we’d take out some small ones. And somebody’d go down to the galley and get a loaf bread so we could have lobster sandwiches. They were good. A little butter…. They went down pretty easy. JS: On the island, did they have a movie theater up there or some place to show movies? WW: They had a room. They’d show movies. And the bowling alley. And then they had a bar. They sold beer, but of course I was too young to participate in that. The bowling alley was four lanes and that was in the basement of where the theater was. It was pretty well built, pretty well managed, I would say. They had paved streets and curbs. [30:44] JS: Now, you’re in the military at a point when it’s still segregated. Were there any black sailors at the island at all? WW: Yup. JS: And what did they do? WW: Cooks. In fact, the one that boiled our lobsters were black. But they were all in the BOQ. All of them. JS: So, they’re really just there as stewards or people to look after the officers? WW: Yup. We did have one guy from Texas there. I don’t know why they moved some of the black sailors into the barracks he was sleeping in. He was hot. He didn’t want that. In fact, he took his hammock outside. And of course, they had places for the hammocks. And he tied his hammock out there and he slept out there for a couple of nights until they decided they would do something different. They had extra barracks, but for some reason wanted to irritate him, I guess. He was a nice enough guy. He was an awful good poker player and a good craps shooter. There was a lot of that going on on pay day. JS: Were you perfectly happy to have this job, or did you think you ought to be in the real war? �WW: I was a happy sailor. In fact, my name came up three times for transfer. Each time, someone else would want to go. And it was kind of funny because they’d come down to me and ask, “Is it okay if I go down and see if I can take your place?” Have at it! I love you! Because I was happy! JS: So, were there a lot of men who got reassigned and went other places? So, you show up on the island in late ’43, and then you’re there for the rest of the war. Were there a lot of guys that got transferred out, or just a few? WW: Oh, transferred off the island? JS: Yeah. WW: Oh yeah. They’d come and go. Not a lot, but there was…. In fact, one of the guys that came to me wanting to take my place – in fact I think it was the last one – I certainly told him ____. He ended up on the same ship as my brother. That was kind of different. [33:51] JS: You finished at the rank of Carpenter Third Class. Do the ranks, how do they count? Is third higher than second, or the other way around? WW: No, no. First class is highest. It goes third, second, first. Third class had three stripes, second class had two…. I was low man on the totem pole. I did take the exam for second class, and I was sure I passed it – I didn’t have any doubt in my mind. But, the chief petty officer that ran the carpenter shop had a friend in the carpenter shop. He was third class too, the two of us. And there was an opening for second class, so we both wrote the exam. And I was sure I passed it, but you’re never know, you know. Anyway, so orders come in for William Wall to do a 30-day transfer to San Diego – 30 days in San Diego. Oh, alright. I’ll go. I packed up, they took me to San Diego, and I spent 30 days doing absolutely nothing. I come back, the other guy had made second class while I was gone. I just figured the chief wanted me out of there while he made the next grade. Which, he…. That was what he wanted. I was such a good poker player that the little bit they were giving me didn’t make a bit of difference to me. I was just an extremely good poker player. [35:52] JS: So, you’re having a perfectly good time, and the rest of it didn’t matter? WW: I had a ball! I did have some times when things were a little hairy, but as it went, I really had a good time. JS: When you say things got hairy, what kind of things happened? �WW: We had to take these sailors from ground level up to that rifle range. They had trucks that had seats – benches – in them. And they’d come, of course, they didn’t have truck drivers sitting there waiting there for them. They’d say, “Can you drive a truck?” Yeah, we can drive a truck. Anyway, coming back…I was coming up one of those and I started to roll backwards. And I jumped on brakes, and I couldn’t figure out why it wouldn’t go forward – couldn’t do anything with it. Of course, it was empty, I didn’t have any sailors. So, I eased off the brake and I backed all the way down, which really wasn’t that far, but it was far enough. I got down to the valley, and I got out and looked and the drive shaft – the U-joint – had broke. And the drive shaft just laid there. And right over the edge was a 25, 100 foot drop off. That was probably my scariest moment. As it went, it was good. I enjoyed it. I made a lot of friends. JS: Now, you’re there. Eventually the war itself comes to an end in the middle of ’45. Did that change anything on the base, once the war ended, once the Japanese surrendered. WW: Oh yeah! Yeah, yeah, yeah. It changed conversation, that’s for sure. Everybody’s talking about going home. When it first ended, we didn’t have enough points – we were considered in the state-side. I don’t know, in maybe two or three weeks they decided that we were far enough out that we could get – we didn’t get sea paid because we were too close to shore, although we were 70 miles off the coast, we still didn’t get sea paid. But they decided that they would give us points for sea, which gave me enough to get out. The chief, he wanted me to stay. I didn’t want to say. But he said, “Well I’ll give you the next rank up.” I think if he had said two I would have stayed, but one wasn’t enough. [39:43] JS: So, when did you leave the island then? WW: Well, it must have been February. JS: 1946 then? WW: Hmm? JS: 1946? [Video/Audio Errors, next few seconds] �WW: Yeah. I made a couple of mistakes. My ear drums. While I was on that island, I developed perforated ear drums, and boy are those painful. And as a young kid, it just busted one night. It wasn’t earthshaking, it was just a set-back. JS: What had happened to your ear? WW: I don’t know. It just busted one night. Of course, we had some real large saws in the carpenter shop. Not that we needed them. We didn’t need them. But here’s this island. The Navy would say, we got this piece of equipment, in this case a saw, and if you want it, you can have it. Of course, the chief in charge: “Oh, we’ll take it!” And it was a monster. It was probably made to cut 12, 14-inch logs. The used to use those to shore up a ship when it was in dry-dock, and they’d hammer them in with a sledge hammer. It had a huge blade. We never used it, but it was there. They started it up every once in a while. It just screamed. As I look back on it, at the time it didn’t bother me. A 19-year-old kid, “you can’t hurt this guy.” But I think it did, and it took 40 years to show up. [43:38] JS: Once you got out of the Navy, what did you do? WW: Well, I always liked retail. Of course, when I was in the Navy, I ran it like a business. I kept busy, and I enjoyed that. My uncle owned a hardware store, but he had a full crew. So, I went to work for another hardware store. Then he decides that maybe he’d like to retire. So, I bought it. I ran that for maybe 10 years. But in the process, Sears-Roebuck moved into town, and of course they spent up a lot of trade. The business was not fast, but you could tell it was trailing off a little bit. At the time, I took out out-board motors to sell, and boats, and that was really going. I rented a garage, a used car lot – not a used car – a new car dealership had moved, and the woman had the building that was just right for me. It had parking and big doors, just everything was just right, so I rented it from her. Then one day, a guy came in and wanted to buy it from me. Being a good business man, anything I have is for sale, so I always wanted to make money, and I sold it to him. I went home and told the wife I had sold it, and she had a fit, because I was unemployed. Then a friend of mine called me up and wanted to know if I would be interested in selling cars. So, then I went into the car business. And that lasted a long time. When I decided to quit work altogether, I was still playing in the car business – not real heavy, but I had my finger in it. Once you get that bug, you know, you can’t quit! It’s just in the blood veins. [46:41] JS: When you look back at the time you spent in the Navy, what do you think you took out of that or how did it affect you? �WW: What? JS: How did being in the Navy affect you? Did you learn anything from it or did you grow up at all? WW: [Laughs] Oh boy! Yeah. Oh yeah. I learned how to chase women. I do remember that. And out in L.A. there were a lot of women to chase. But it was fun. And there were some hairy times too. I got hooked up with some guys from the island, and I thought I knew them. I stayed with them in the hotel, and oh, were they different. It only took me one trip, and then the next time I was busy. I steered clear of them. But those are the tings you learn, and you learn from your mistakes. You just have to be careful. But as a whole, I enjoyed my time. I had some pretty good buddies. We stuck together pretty good and knew right from wrong. You like women. One under your arm and go someplace. It was a time when I grew up and enjoyed it. JS: Well it makes for a pretty good story, and an unusual story. WW: Well, yeah. There were no gun shows. No big guns going off. Although, those bunkers those guys were firing on were…. And of course, as they would fire on that, that island in a certain part of the year would be real dry, and would start grass fires. And I don’t care if you’re a first class bowman or a third class sweeper, you got a broom, and you went out, and you brushed the fire. It was all just grass, but it still had to be put out. [49:42] JS: So, you were getting brush fires even on your end of the island? WW: Oh yeah. Those ships would practice cinerary bombs. They’d go off off above and scatter that hot stuff, and of course, it would burn. They would know that they were going to do it and they would have the trucks ready loaded with brooms and some water. You’d get the broom with a rag on it in the water, and then drag it on the grass to put out the fire. Really a hot way of doing things! That was technology at its best. JS: Well, thank you very much. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_WallW2168V Title A name given to the resource Wall, William (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-11-14 Description An account of the resource William Wall was born in Hope, Michigan, in 1924, and later moved with his family to nearby Midland. He was drafted into the Navy shortly after he finished high school.in 1943. He trained at Great Lakes, Illinois, and was assigned to San Clemente Island, off the coast near San Diego, and worked as a carpenter. The island had a rifle range and some other training facilities, and housed a few seaplanes and a radar station, but was mostly out of the way of the war. With little war work to do, Mr. Wall built things such as picture frames, suitcases, and lobster traps. He also ran a small bowling alley on the base, played a lot of poker, helped tend the lobster traps, and took trips to the mainland when he could. He enjoyed his life there, and turned down opportunities to transfer elsewhere, and stayed at San Clemente until his discharge in 1946. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Wall, William Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f696f97b19466e4cda6ce62e18c65b97.m4v 9515785b6fa6b87a4b3b91c19a245f87 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/483a513152532347f43a364c5e770afe.pdf b351ddf5ec2ffa84bb899c323d15da42 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Veteran: Roy Shoemaker Jr. Interviewer: James Smither Transcribed by Rebecca Doran Interview length: 47:28 [0.00] James Smither: We‟re talking today with Roy Shoemaker Jr. of Benton Harbor, MI. The interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay, Roy start us off with some background on yourself, and to begin with where and when you were born? Roy Shoemaker Jr.: I was born in Benton Harbor, MI. April 3, 1930. Supposedly one of the largest babies ever born in this county at this time. JS: Well, how tall did you end up being? RS: I ended up being 6‟ 5.5”. JS: Okay! RS: As of right now, 6‟ 5.5”. And went through the Benton Harbor school system. JS: What did your family do for a living when you were a kid? RS: My father worked on a WPA. At that time, we lived on 9th Street in Benton Harbor in the Flats Area. And I‟d like to clarify something on that: they always said that was an allblack area, but it wasn‟t. It was German. It was Polish. It was Black. It was Chinese. It was everything. The only thing we had in common, was that we, most of us, were all poor. JS: How long had your family been in Michigan? RS: All the time. My mother was from Kingston, Jamaica. The rest of the family lived in Michigan the whole time. JS: Because there was a black population here going back before the Civil War. RS: Well, yeah, right. My immediate family was from here. JS: Now, your father worked for the WPA, and that was sort of public works projects. Did he have any special skills? �RS: Yes, he did. He was a mason. If you see all these bricks in Benton Harbor on Colfax Avenue, he laid a majority. He was considered one of the best masons in this area at the time. That‟s what he did for a living. And later he continued his skills in Chicago and was very instrumental, and also working in the prisons to help people learn the skills so they could come out and be productive citizens. JS: What was life like here during World War II, because you were a kid then? RS: As a kid, it was really wonderful. As I say, I‟m strictly from Benton Harbor. We had…a majority of people didn‟t have a lot of money. We had respect for our neighbors. We used to all look out for each other. In the summertime, we‟d get on the truck and go out and pick berries as a family and make money. Whatever we could do as a family, we did, and proudly so. As I look back, I think, this was quite a thing, very important. And, we rented. I remember when the rent on 9th Street was $12.00 a month, and an increase of 50 cents would almost put you out on the street. We had outdoor plumbing, the outhouse was out in the yard. We had kerosene lamps. We had coal from Consumers Coal Company. These were the facilities that we lived in. The one thing we had was a lot of respect for each other and a lot of comradery among the people regardless of the ethnic background. JS: As things kind of ramped up during World War II, and the war got going, there was more industry. Were there more jobs then? RS: Yes. At that time, we had [unintelligible] we had auto specialties, we had Whirlpool, then known as 1900. We had numerous places for people to come. I remember the people from the Southern states migrated to this area because of the job market and it was skills they could take part in. And the community began to grow accordingly because of that. They turned out to be very excellent citizens of the community, and they‟re still here. I‟m one of the older ones right now. But we‟re still in existence and very proud of our backgrounds. JS: Did you finish high school? RS: Yes, I did. I went to Benton Harbor High School. I got out in May of 1948; I got out two months after my 18th birthday. JS: What did you do after you graduated? RS: After I graduated, I went over to work at the Witt Hotel. And then I tried to get into Whirlpool, and it was known as 1900 at the time. I kept going there, and manager kept saying, “We‟re not hiring,” but they were hiring. “We‟re not hiring,” but they were hiring. I had an uncle who was a podiatrist in Canada who had gone to school with one of the �gentlemen at Whirlpool. And he told me to go over there and tell them that your uncle and he said he‟ll see what he could do. So, I went over there, and they hired me at Whirlpool as a material handler. And it was really funny because this gentleman who kept telling me there was no job, he said his daughter just graduated and she‟s having a hard time... We‟re just poor people, and we respect…. But in any event, after 30 days, you go down to get your insurance. When I went down to get my insurance, this gentleman said, “Sorry. We still don‟t have a job.” I said, “Oh no. I‟ve come to get my insurance. I work here now.” And that‟s when I started at Whirlpool. Then I went into the machine shop: putting the cartons together and what have you. I stayed there for 9 ½ years. I was recommended for a promotion to a foreman position in the ___ area by two very fine gentlemen that I worked with. Apparently, there was a color factor involved. They said they just couldn‟t do it. And one of the gentlemen that was a real high official there said when one of his men could recommend someone, he didn‟t want any part of it. He wanted to have respect for these guys to this day. I didn‟t think in terms…because we never talked prejudices. We‟re just poor people and this was a gift in a sense. But a lot of fond memories. But I did work at Whirlpool for 9 ½ years, and then I went into the line, into the trial lines and so forth. I made good money. And then I went into welding. So, I did a number of things that enhanced my way of living. [6:59] JS: That‟s getting ahead of ourselves here in the story a bit, so we‟ll kind of go back. That‟s fine. It works. It‟s just my job to kind of put things in order. But basically, after high school…so were you working at Whirlpool before you went into the service? RS: That is correct. JS: Okay. And then how did you end up in the service? RS: Well, when I went, I wound up leaving here, and I went to Fort Custer, first. JS: But were you drafted or did you enlist? RS: I was drafted. JS: And when did you get the draft notice? RS: I got that in…let‟s see…it would be…about the latter part of… JS: 1950? RS: 1950, yeah. �JS: So, you get that but you don‟t have to report for training right away? RS: Right. They told me I was classified as I-A. JS: And of course, the Korean War, it started a couple of months earlier, so it‟s quite possible that Uncle Sam‟s gonna need you. So when do you actually report for duty? RS: Well, on March 3, actually, I received a letter that there was a contingent to meet at the local YMCA. 41 people, 41 of us. And I don‟t know why, but for some reason it said that you were going to be the group leader of that group. They never could explain that. And that consisted of several black fellows and white fellows. Most of us knew each other. You‟re going to get your meal tickets and what have you when you get to your destination. You give them to the gentleman and they take care of your needs before they dismiss you to other areas. I guess this was my first “goof” with the army. Because they gave me 41 meal tickets, and the bus driver pulled into Schuler‟s, and you know what Schuler‟s is. I‟d never been in a Schuler‟s…couldn‟t afford to go into places like that. And we pulled into a Schuler‟s Restaurant – the bus driver did – and he said maybe we should get some candy or something because some of these guys are feeling bad, they‟re going into the Army now. We went in, and Win Schuler came out and he said, “Hi! We‟re all ready for you.” I said, “I beg your pardon?” He said, “They‟re all ready for you.” I said, “Ready for what?” “Your meals are all set. They‟re all set up for you. 41 of you, right?” I said, “Yeah, there‟s 41.” We had the best meal we could ever want again. It was unbelievable! Didn‟t think anything of it because they told me to give them when we get to Detroit. And he said, “No, no, no. It‟s all set up!” Well I found I made a big mistake because when we got to Detroit – and this again is where I first noticed a difference – they took the white fellows to a hotel downtown called Kelly‟s, and they took us to a very prominent hotel – the Carlton Plaza Hotel in Detroit. And the manager said, “I‟d like the meal tickets.” I said, “I don‟t have any meal tickets.” He said, “What do you mean?” I said, “We ate at a place called Schuler‟s. They told us they would….” He was livid. So, he said, “I‟m gonna call the, down to Eights Army headquarters down in Detroit.” And this gentleman came up to me – I‟m shaking in my boots – and he said, “I‟m going to deduct this from your pay!” I thought, this is going to take a long time to pay for the meals. He said, “I‟m going to deduct this from your pay.” And I said, “We told them….” He said, “That‟s all right.” So, they gave me more tickets. Because I guess I had covered both places. So, when we got to this Carlton Plaza, the food that we received was nothing like what we would have had at the other place. It wouldn‟t have made too much difference to us because we had dinner, we were satisfied. Then what happened right after that, the guys come up to me, they said: “Roy, we don‟t have any beds!” I said, “What do you mean you don‟t have any beds?” “There are no beds in here.” I said, “There‟s got to be beds in here!” Well, see, that shows you how little we knew. They had the beds that came down from the wall. So, there were a lot of things that were comical, yet very memorable because a lot of people were affected by it. �[11:42] JS: Now, you spend the night in Detroit. What did they do with you the next day? RS: Then the next day they started sending us out. And when they sent us, they sent a contingent of us to Fort Custer to Battle Creek to the reception center. We got there, and of course they checked us to make sure we didn‟t have any booze and all these different things. They put us in some of the Quonset Huts as groups, some in other places, but we don‟t know where, they dispersed them quite well. So, I went to Fort Hood, I mean, not Fort Hood, Camp Custer in Battle Creek. JS: And then that point, did you do your training there? Or just processing? RS: Just processing. And that was the thing, they put me in charge of contingent, trying to, like if they made a mistake, guys had to do…. And I said, hey, we don‟t need to do that… we can work out, we had a good group of people there. And then they started shipping people – sending some to Alaska, some to Germany. Finally, they told me they I was going to Fort Hood, Texas, to activate the 1st Armored Division. JS: But at this point, had you not actually had any Army Basic Training yet? RS: No. JS: They‟re not teaching you to march or anything? RS: No. I mean, you have to march, but that‟s about all. JS: But just to go eat? RS: Yeah. Because they were just trying to figure out where they were sending people. JS: So, how do they get you to Fort Hood? RS: They did that by train. We got on the train, and I had never been on a train before. And we started going through these various towns and I saw some of the things I had heard about but had never seen about the white, the black. It was quite a shock to my system. But these were things I had never been exposed to because I‟d been in the North so-called area where these things don‟t happen. But that‟s what it was when we got there. And we got to Fort Hood, Texas and that became a surprise too. JS: Okay, so what happens once you arrive there? �RS: Fort Hood, Texas was a segregated camp In fact, there it was not an integrated camp. All the blacks were put in the barracks in one place. Eddie Fisher was there at the time; he was in D Company, we became good friends. These are things that people don‟t…this was 1950. The whole camp was completely segregated. As I said, the term Segregation had never really entered my mind, but now, later, we learned that that happened. But they put us in the barracks, and Eddie Fisher was down…. We all went to the same dining room; we ate together. But when it came to living conditions, we went to an all-black group, and they went. I was in the 16th Armored Unit [Engineer Battalion], Bridge Company. Our job was to build these pontoon bridges and such so that trucks could roll across. Interesting. It was really an enjoyable experience. [14:38] JS: Do you start to get Army Basic Training now? RS: Yes. JS: What did that training consist of? RS: The infiltration course, the entire... all of that you had to go through. The marching. The different exercises: we had Operation Longhorn…. And we would go out, get up at five in the morning, and go for miles and do various things. And of course, us being a Bridge Company, we would go out with these big pontoons on Brockway trucks and rode „em and made bridges for any vehicle in the Army to go over. JS: Now sometimes with engineer units, they give people assignments in part because of their size. Did you certain jobs because you were so tall? RS: Not there. Not there. Because I enjoyed it, and this was quite a thing. What we were doing, it was a good an experience. It was amazing to think that you could do this, and accommodate some of the materials that we had at our service. And we did this in complete darkness. We‟d be out there going across some place. And one guy‟d have these big pins to put into the pontoon to hold the pontoon so they‟d come through. And at that time, they did apparently have it in mind, because they sent me to an NCO Academy. [shows pictures to interviewer off screen] So they sent me to an NCO Academy, and then told me they were considering to make me a cadre because of my ability to get along with people. JS: And explain for people who don‟t know, if you‟re in a cadre, what does that mean? RS: Cadre means you work with the troops. You march them. You do the various details that they need to become familiar with. JS: So you‟re part of the unit‟s staff, the regular staff for training the other guys? �RS: Right! President Eisenhower issues a statement saying that all enlisted men will serve overseas. That‟s how I got overseas. JS: You were talking about how the barracks on the base were segregated, but the units themselves were integrated? RS: That‟s right. JS: So, you had white and black guys working together in the companies. RS: Well, yes. Normally that would be the case. It wasn‟t that the soldiers themselves couldn‟t understand it, because there were a lot of people from the North who hadn‟t been experienced with this type of thing,, and they said “What do you mean, this thing with black…”. But it was something that was very noticeable to others because they‟d always associated with other people. And we had this Operation Longhorn, and this was where the problem was solved. And a lady by the name of Anna Rosenburg, who was assistant secretary of defense to President Eisenhower came down to Operation Longhorn, and she saw the blacks in one stairway, took all the people who were so called misfits, part upstairs and part down, and she wanted to know what was going on. And they told her. And she said, I‟m going back and every camp would be be integrated, and they did. Now a lot of people don‟t know this, but I have a young lady who goes to our church and I told her she made a review, she found out Anna Rosenburg, and I‟ve never heard from her again. So, she said this shouldn‟t exist.But we‟d‟a had no problems… [18:30] JS: So, when you first started the company you were assigned to, was that all black except for the officers? RS: No, we had black officers. All black. A black officer: Captain Prior. He was fantastic. All the officers were black. And, of course, when we‟d go from parade, march and review, we were good, we had a sharp group because we‟d go hard. We were good and we knew it. And we were always complimented very well for that. JS: And then the drill sergeants and trainers, were they a mix of people? RS: No. In this case, they were all black also. Later, of course, we did have white officers, and they were really quite friendly to talk with, but as far as living together, it didn‟t happen. �JS: Did stuff change while you were at Fort Hood? Did they start to integrate the units after Ms. Rosenburg visited? RS: It did. But I was sent overseas before…. We didn‟t think much of it because we‟d always go back and talk to our friends; we‟d go to the cafeteria, white and….and later I guess it did change. JS: When do you find out you‟re going to go overseas? RS: Well, I have to get the exact month, but when they called in, they called in different groups, they said to one you‟re going to Hawaii. I‟m going to Germany. Another one said, “I‟m going to Alaska,” just like they were at the reception center. I got a thing that says you‟re going to Operation Evil. I beg your pardon? Err, you‟re going to California, Camp Stoneman. I got down there, I got assigned to my seat and it says on my bag: Operation Evil. And I figured there‟s only one place where that could be, and that was Korea. JS: Operation? RS: EVIL. That‟s just what they put on the tag. So, I figured that has to be pretty plain. JS: So, basically this would have been the middle of 1952 by this time? RS: Right. JS: Before we go on with the story, to back up a little, while you were at Fort Hood, did you go off base at all? RS: Oh yes. In fact, I used to, there was…Sinbad‟s father, you‟ve heard of Sinbad, his father, we all grew up together, Sinbad and I, some of us used to view for colonel‟s orderly, we‟d look sharp so we‟d get a three-day pass. We‟d go to Waco, Texas. We‟d go to Temple. We‟d go to a number of places even though they were segregated. As a matter of fact, I had to ride in the back of a bus with my uniform on. This was something I‟d never done on any bus. But I had to ride on the back of a bus with my uniform on, yes. [21:50] JS: Were there sometimes problems when people left the base? Would they get in trouble for going to the wrong place or would they behave themselves? RS: No, most of them did. I and Sinbad and some others went to this went to this college that was all black. Louis Armstrong was going to be at this big club in Austin, �Texas. It had all races there. We went to the dean to ask if they could let us bring some of the young ladies with us to go to the base. And they did. They said, “No drinking,” because you know how that goes. So, we all went to the Louis Armstrong down in Austin, Texas, and of course it had all races in there. And we went to the dean and asked if we could bring some of the young ladies with us to go to the place, and they said yes, but no drinking in there, and of course you know how that goes. So we all went to the Louis Armstrong down in Austin Texas in the big building that they have there. The whites went throughout, everybody was having a good time. And when we went back down to sit, we went over there, you went over here. Afterwards, there was a place called The Black Cat, which was a restaurant. We all, a lot of us from our group went there, and some whites came in and people said they couldn‟t stay. The police came and took them out. They said, “What do you mean?” They said, “You can‟t stay here. This is for blacks.” I said, “Well hey, I‟m from the North.” They said, “I don‟t care where you‟re from.” So that was the only thing. Other than that, I didn‟t see a whole lot of trouble. JS: To move back in the story, it‟s 1952. You get your orders overseas. You go to Camp Stoneman. Is that another train ride? RS: Yes, that was another train ride. JS: And once you got to Camp Stoneman, what happens? RS: At Camp Stoneman, that‟s when we went out via boat to Pusan. JS: What kind of ship were you on? RS: I have a picture. The U.S. Weigu. JS: Was that like a World War II vintage transport, probably? RS: I would imagine so. JS: It was probably a Victory Ship or something like that. About how many people do you think were on the ship? RS: Oh boy. It was loaded. It was really loaded. Lots of my old friends that came in from different areas, some I‟d seen in different places before that. Several of them from Benton Harbor. There must have been 20 from Benton Harbor. [24:26] JS: So, what was that sea voyage like? �RS: Well, I never got sick. But there were times when I thought the ship was just going to touch the bottom. I‟d sit there and look at it. We pulled a couple of bad tricks on…. There was a young Mexican guy who just couldn‟t stand. So, the guys would wait to get his food. And they‟d (gestures to indicate vomiting)… It was kind of rough, and coming back was even more, because we had really bad weather coming back. JS: About how long did it take to get to Korea? RS: Oh boy. I…I don‟t know. JS: Two weeks? RS: No, no. Not from Camp Stoneman. Probably six days. JS: Did you stop anywhere along the way? RS: No. JS: So, you get to Pusan. Now what does that look like and what happens? RS: Well, we got to Pusan and they began to divide the people up. And they told me, again, we‟re going to take a train and go to a place called Taegu. They said no guns will be issued at this time…well, they‟re here, and ammunition. If we get attacked, not just some tracers going through the air…. Any time the train stops, if there‟s some problems, they‟ll issue them. Then they said we have to take four or five fellows who have to get out and stand when the train stops. Why they pick on me again, I‟ll never know. Because this area I wasn‟t too keen on. So, I got out, and it stopped. We didn‟t have any real problems…it was raining, really raining, it was going crazy. So, the train took us into Taegu, and they took us to this camp. They had tents…they had barracks later, but they had leather tents that they put us in. We got into our training after that. We walked hard and went through various training facilities. JS: What unit were you assigned to? RS: This is something else. As far as I knew at that time, I was still part of Bridge Company. They called me and told me they were sending me to Seoul. And myself and a chaplain got on this big truck. We were both sitting there like this… (gestures with hands) This truck took us into Seoul. The Eighth Army headquarters there had been bombed – you could see that a lot had taken place there, but they had different areas. They took me up to this room, and later, I got a call from downstairs. They said, “Shoemaker, I understand you took business administration at a local college.” I said, “Yeah.” They said, “Do you type?” I said, “Well, just with two fingers. I‟m not really a typist to that extent.” “Well, come downstairs.” So, I went downstairs and gave me �something to type. I had to go pretty fast. He said, “Okay. You‟re going back to Taegu as Company B Cl… no, you‟re going as S-4.” So, I said, “S-4?” But then, when I got back to Taegu, I found out that I had the best time in the service than the fellow I was supposed to replace. So, they said, “You‟re the Clerk of Company B.” So, there‟s where they made the change. After all this training that I had in Bridge Company, I suddenly became the Cleric of Company B. That‟s where I spent my time. And then they made me Corporal, and they wanted to go higher but the T and E strength [?] was so high, with all the guys coming back, they just couldn‟t do it. [28:41] JS: So, it‟s Company B of what Battalion? RS: Of the 44th Construction Engineer. JS: Probably part of the 44th Division at that point? RS: Right. JS: Basically, what does that job consist of? RS: Well, it‟s doing the records. Typing, mostly for the commanding officer. Typing up the recommendations for promotions. Some information of course had to be kept between the officers and ourselves. Basically, everything a clerk would ever do as far as typing. And I got pretty good at that. JS: And so, who were you reporting to? RS: I was reporting to a Lieutenant. I can‟t remember his name, but I should. He was from Alabama. This was all integrated, there was no problem with that – I didn‟t have any problem with that. But he was a super guy. And I had Colonel Reischnider, who was the colonel of the operation, and he was a super man too. I can remember them very well. JS: Describe a little bit the base at Taegu where you were living. RS: It was very hilly, as Korea would be. Lots of snow. And of course, you see people running around with their loads on their back and what have you. In fact, right behind us was a school and they had hundreds of kids all in blue uniforms. These are Korean people. They had a lot of indigenous personnel working at the camp also. But we would watch them. But basically, it was to be ready in case something occurred. We would go in, as I said, the truce wasn‟t final yet… cause they said this was just a police action. �JS: Now was the Battalion itself, the Engineering Battalion, were they building roads or bridges? RS: Oh yeah! They would build roads…that‟s what they were known for. That‟s why they were called the Broken Arm. They did a lot in that regard. And mine, of course, with my assignment, I didn‟t get a chance to get into that. I just wrote memos on it. [31:06] JS: And you said you had Koreans working on the base. What kinds of things would they do? RS: Well, they would clean. We let them do any number of things. Even guarding. But sometimes the Korean guards got a little trigger-happy. There was WHOA-OH, and guys would come running because they hear a shot. Thank God I didn‟t have to, but I almost shot a fellow one night because I was on guard-duty, and I was standing guard, and this guy comes up,, “Ohyiyi…” (clutches stomach) Found out he had an appendix attack. I think of them as people. They‟re people just like anyone else. A majority of people probably didn‟t want to be there, but by the same token, you didn‟t know. And of course, our job was to be there and protect our country. That‟s what I was there to do. And if it had come to that, I would have done it without any question. JS: A lot of people who were there in Korea at that time comment about the poverty in the countryside…. RS: A lot of poverty. And not only that, I was a little perturbed about some of our own servicemen, in a sense, mistreating people. We‟d see someone – a lady – come walking, and they‟d give them a shove. I didn‟t buy that. They‟re human just like anyone else. This is only a few, but there were people that did take that approach, because they were away from home and what have you. But I always thought, give respect, demand respect, but do what you have to do as part of the service. Do it. If you have to do it, you do it! JS: Was there prostitution around, or that kind of thing? RS: Oh yes. That was always around, the prostitution. I remember, there was one young lady that I had a talk with. And it was really funny, she said, “Sergeant say you chocolate soldier!” [Laughs]. “Sergeant say you chocolate soldier!” We had never thought in terms of prejudice stuff. It was kind of a shock to my system. I thought, a chocolate soldier? You know, what difference does that make? I‟m a soldier, and that‟s what I said. “I‟m a soldier. An American soldier. Not a chocolate soldier. You go back and tell „Sargy‟ I said that.” But see that was somebody that they didn‟t want you to associate with. �JS: Was there a black market going on? RS: That I don‟t know. I don‟t think. JS: So, you weren‟t keeping track of supplies or things like that? RS: No. JS: Okay, because that could be an issue. And you talked about having Korean guards. Would those have been Korean soldiers? [34:03] RS: They were Korean soldiers, yes. They were indigenous personnel. They would be around. They were good; they were glad to have the Americans around to protect them. But once in a while you heard a gunshot and they‟d say they thought maybe someone was trying to come into base or something but it didn‟t create as much of a problem as it could have. JS: Did you spend pretty much all your time on the base, or did you get to travel around at all? RS: I did travel. In fact, I went to the..I drove a Jeep to a couple of areas to pick up supplies from a plane where a bunch of American soldiers had been waiting to be waiting to be rotated back to the hospital. Some in bags that had died, and what have you. And that was such an inspiring thing to see, the attitude that these people were displaying. When you walked in, you really felt that anything you could do, you‟re going to do. Because, hey, they smoked their cigarettes and they‟re just glad that they‟re exempt and so forth. They‟re just waiting to go back to the states to the various hospitals. I drove a lieutenant there to pick up supplies and stuff. That was the big shock when I saw some of that stuff because up to then I hadn‟t seen much. JS: So, Taegu was far enough behind the front lines at that point that you weren‟t being hit by artillery or anything like that? RS: No, no. Seoul would have had… they did have it in different areas, but we didn‟t have too much going on. They always anticipated that things could occur. JS: About how long did you wind up spending in Korea? RS: About seven, eight months. �JS: Okay, so you leave in February of ‟53. So, you‟re only there seven months, when normally an overseas tour lasts a year, so why did you go home earlier? [36:05] RS: Well, that was just it. We were going to rotate back to the States. But the thing is, I was approached, along with other fellows, and wanted to know if we wanted to give three more years and become Second Lieutenant. Well, that was very tempting because, very honestly, I enjoyed the service. I really felt comfortable. But I wrote my mother, and I got a telegram, “Get out now!” (laughs) So that did it. But they told us, they‟d like to keep us because apparently, we were doing things that they appreciated having, and they felt that we were really sincere in our efforts. But after that, I probably would have been there because I really enjoyed what I was doing, although I couldn‟t understand going from one thing to the other thing, being transferred from Bridge Company to a Clerk. JS: When you think about the time you spent in Korea, are there other memories or impressions or things that happened that you haven‟t brought into the story yet? RS: No. Well, Eddie. Eddie Fisher and I – this is something back at Fort Hood when we were there – we both did what we called “Music Orientation.” We‟d get up and do these crazy chants as far as marching and what have you. And at that time, of course, he was very popular with Elizabeth Taylor and all this stuff. He was special in the service because he went around to all these camps. He was a nice guy, a down-to-earth guy. But we did go out in the Operation Longhorn, and that was really something. And later we had this amateur hour, and he and I had different people in there. I never had a chance to see him after that. I always wanted to see him. JS: When it‟s time for you to leave Korea, did the whole unit leave together or did you go by yourself? RS: No. This is really something that amazed me. There was a little Korean kid by the name of Mickey. We called him a “House-boy.” Very nice kid. He knew I was going to be rotated back to the states before I did. And he comes and he said “Shoemakey, you go back to states tomorrow.” I said “No bullshit me, no, I don‟t know…” but he said “No, you go back to states tomorrow.” “No, Mickey, I don‟t think so.” Because I didn‟t know. They didn‟t tell me. There was no… They called me that night and said, “You‟re going back to the states.” I got it on a shelf here, a little thing that he gave me, I‟ll never forget. I‟ll show it to you. It looks like a little priest and someone else. He said, “You the most Papa-san,” which was really something, that kind of respect that he showed to me. But he said…he was there, he was crying. He said, “I tell you no bullshitting.” “ Are you bullshitting me?” I didn‟t know, very honestly. But they came, at midnight, and took us to a train to go back. It was very funny, because when I came back, I was offered the �opportunity to stay and process, with the clerk thing. If I would stay and help process, they would fly me back after that. But if I chose to leave, then I had to go by boat. Well, at this stage, I thought, you never know what the jig is. Oh, I‟ll go back. So, we come back by boat. When I got to Camp Stoneman – back there again – here‟s seven or eight of the guys who stayed. They‟re already there, having a ball, and here I am after seventeen days in a boat, because we hit a big storm. [40:00] JS: Did you get sick on the way back? RS: No, I didn‟t. I really didn‟t, and it was really funny. I just got to hold myself…. I told my wife, I don‟t understand it, even now. It‟s only happened once in my life, and that just happened here on Lake Michigan about five years ago. I mean, I‟ve been out in this stuff and didn‟t get sick. But you just kind of roll with it. There was one thing that happened to us coming back. A bunch of the guys didn‟t want to do KP in the barracks. So this buddy of mine, George [Unintelligible], now deceased, come up to me and a couple of other guys and says “Will you come work with me . We said, “We‟ll come down there.” What a deal! They gave us steak. They gave us chicken. They gave us everything. We didn‟t want to leavel. They put the other guys on a, on the boat. Other than that, hey, I‟ll stay here all day. You can keep me on KP all the time. They took us back. We went to our bunks. [Unintelligible]. JS: Now, when you get back to the states, is your enlistment basically up at that point? RS: When I got back to the states, this is really funny. They flew me from California back to Fort Custer. This plane was loaded with all these guys and they had one lady who was a stewardess and we‟re going on this puddle jumper, and it looked like, we‟re going to Needles, Arizona, and my ears are going like this. She kept telling me to hold it and blow to open up my ears. And we landed in Fort Custer. I left from Fort Custer and ended at Fort Custer. JS: So, you get discharged from there? RS: Yes. JS: Did you go back home from there? RS: Yeah, I came back home. And then I decided I wanted to go to school because I got the G.I. Bill. I went back to Lake Michigan College because I had spent some time there. I went back there and tried to get an education to better myself. And I got into that. Then I went back to Whirlpool because they allowed me to have those two years and then they gave me my job back, so I was there for nine years. And after going to �college, I graduated, cause I didn‟t go back right away, in 1955, „56, I‟m sorry, from Lake Michigan College. I was the president of my class. And a lot of things took place. And then I went to Heath Company – I don‟t know if you‟ve heard of Heath Company. I went to Heath Company. They contacted me and said “We‟d like to talk to you.” I thought they made candy bars because they were down here in Benton Harbor at the time. I went down and they interviewed me. And they said they‟d like to hire me. And they said, “We‟d like to hire you.” I said, “Well, how far can you go?” They said, “As far as you want as long as you do it the right way.” I said, “Fantastic.” So, I worked with them. And I stayed with them for 34 years. I was a credit service manager for Heath Company. They were very good to me. Of course, at the meantime, my wife and I, we‟ve been married 63 years last Saturday. I‟d known her as a young girl. I‟m five years older than she is, and never thought about that at the time. But there were eight of these Korean Vets at Lake Michigan College, and each of us used to take these young ladies out for coffee. We married the girls we took out. So that‟s how I ended with with Whirlpoo, with Heath Company, and I was service manager there. Then I also received the Assistant of the Year award in Benton Harbor, and was United Fund Campaign Chairman for 1970. There was a lot of history, that I did with the Red Cross, and of course with the Lions. I was also with the Benton Harbor Lions for many years and received many awards. [44:56] = [38:46] JS: Now, to think back to the time you spent in the service, how do you think that affected you or what did you take out of it? RS: Well, I think it was a great experience. Living in a small town, you really didn‟t know about what was going on in other areas of the country. I learned to respect all people regardless of circumstances, not take anything for granted, be aware that you are an American citizen and you should plan to do what is expected of an American citizen. It‟s always been that way. And yet, you really have to take a good look at what‟s going on and say, “Hey. Is this really necessary?” It really breaks my heart to see some of the stuff that‟s occurring again that supposedly was gone. But as an American citizen, I‟m going to do what I have to do to always maintain that attitude. And I respect the flag highly. That‟s my flag. And I‟m going to do anything to show my allegiance to it. JS: Well, the whole thing makes for a good story. So, thank you for taking the time to share it with me. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_ShoemakerR2200V Title A name given to the resource Shoemaker, Roy (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-18 Description An account of the resource Roy Shoemaker Jr. was born in Benton Harbor, Michigan in 1930. He grew up there, finished high school in 1949 and got a job at the Whirlpool factory, and was drafted into the army soon afterward, in late 1950. He trained at Fort Hood, Texas, and was assigned to the 16th Armored Engineer Battalion of the 1st Infantry Division, and trained with their Bridge Company. Mr. Shoemaker was close to his family growing up, and had a lot of respect for his community despite multiple nationalities and low-incomes. Not long after starting at Whirlpool in 1950, Mr. Shoemaker received a draft notice. He was processed at Fort Custer and then was transported to Fort Hood, Texas via train. At Fort Hood, Mr. Shoemaker received basic training and was assigned to the 16th Arms Unit, Bridge Company. He stayed with that unit over a year, during which time he met the singer Eddie Fisher and did musical acts with him on the base. In 1952, he received orders for Korea and was assigned to B Company of the 44th Construction Engineer Battalion, where he wound up as the company clerk because he could type. He spent seven months with this unit at Taegu, some distance back from the front lines. He saw no combat, but did get to see something of the country and meet the people. One notable dimension of this interviewer is that he offers commentary on the process of racial integration in the military. As an African American from the North, he had seen little by way of discrimination before going to Texas to train, and offers keen observations on different aspects of racial discrimination in both North and South, and of the Army's efforts to desegregate Fort Hood, which was in process while he was there. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shoemaker, Roy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4acba53c5db118728d6829f32e64a1c8.m4v 69e88ba128dc8e2432e302c28749a18e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/18ed1462094e5642503ba7f92b8ba386.pdf 1836f094cb74cc08378e0a42e781174f PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Veteran: Robert Barrowcliff Interviewer: James Smither Transcribed by Gabrielle Angel Interview length: 1:01:00 00:00:04 I: We are talking today with Robert Barrowcliff from Castle Rock, Washington, and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Now, begin with some basics on yourself, like where and when were you born? V: I was born 1947 in Silverton, Oregon. I: And did you grow up there? V: I grew up in the state of Oregon. I went through all of those schools, grade schools. I: What was your family doing for a living while you were a kid? V: My dad was a Union Oil driver for delivery of gasoline and oil throughout the Santiam Valley. I: Okay, where did you go to high school? V: Where did I? Stayton, Stayton High. I: Now, what part of the state is that in? V: It‟s just east of Salem, about eighteen miles. I: Kind of western Oregon. V: It‟s up in what‟s called the Santiam Valley, which is famous for logging. I: Okay, and what year did you finish high school? V: 1965. I: What did you do after you got out of high school? V: I went to Oregon State for a couple of terms, decided that wasn‟t for me, so I ended up going to Smacada [?] College, and I graduated in electrical engineering. I: So, that was more of a technical school or a trade school kind of thing? V: Yeah. It was a two-year technical school. I: Okay, so do you finish that in ‟67? ‟68? �V: That would have been ‟68. I: Yeah, yeah, okay so you had time to go to Oregon State. Okay. While you‟re in college, are you aware that Vietnam is going on? That Uncle Sam might want you? V: No, I was, we were working construction in the summer time, and when I was going to college, I was working full time, so I didn‟t have much time. The year that I failed to register back to college, I immediately got my draft notice. 00:02:12 I: Alright, so Uncle Sam was keeping track of you. V: Yes, they knew when I wasn‟t going to be in school. I: So, when was that that you had to-? V: That was in the summer of 1968. I: And when did you report for duty? V: I reported for duty I think on election day, 1968. It was November 2 or 3. I: Okay, now, where do you go for Basic Training? V: I went up to Fort Lewis and they gave me an option, being that it was November, Fort Lewis had not great weather, but I was used to that. I could stay at Fort Lewis or I could go to Fort Polk, Alabama. I chose Fort Polk. So, they flew me down to Alabama and that‟s where I did my basic training. I: Alright, can you describe a little bit what that was like? When you arrive at Polk, what kind of reception do you get there? V: The reception was fine. It was the real strict military life. You had the drill sergeants escorting you around. But I didn‟t have too many problems. In there some place we were tested for aptitude. I knew that I was going to get drafted, so prior to being drafted, I was taking some flight lessons. I learned to fly in what must have been the early part of „68. I: Just fly like a little propeller airplane kind of thing? V: Fixed-wing plane. I: Fixed plane, yeah. V: So, I had some aptitude towards their tests. And apparently, I came out of the test alright because they told me that I didn‟t have to go to ATT, ATII: AIT. V: AIT. I went from there to the basic flight school. 00:04:11 �I: But you did go through the basic training at Fort Polk first. That‟s the one everybody gets. V: Yes, I think that was eight weeks. I: What are you spending your time doing during that eight weeks? V: Exercise and running. [Laughs] That was it, just basic training. We did some escape and evasion maneuvers, some crawling under concertina wire through the dirt. I: You said, I guess, with the kind of work you were doing, you were probably in pretty good shape at that point? V: Yeah. I was in pretty good shape. I: I figured you might be because of what you were getting into. Were there other guys that you were training with that were having more trouble? V: I can remember that one day we had to run a mile. This was without packs. It was combat boots and whatnot. And, we were supposed to do it in six minutes. I think I did mine in six minutes and ten or fifteen seconds, and I was the second person. That‟s where I learned a life long lesson: don‟t come in first, and don‟t come in last. [Both laugh] You want to be in the middle somewhere, because the drill sergeant made a point that since everyone was so slow, he said to the first guy, “Show them how to do it.” And he had to run another mile. I: Were there guys that had trouble with the discipline part? V: No, I don‟t think so. I: Okay. So, basically just went along with it the best they could. V: Yeah, nobody had any… I: Well, I ask because sometimes people talk about misfits or people who made all kinds of trouble, that didn‟t know their left foot from their right, but if you didn‟t see it, you didn‟t see it. 00:06:03 V: Well, I don‟t remember it. It didn‟t stick in my mind as very important at the time. I: So, you do this for, you know, eight weeks. At what point do you find out what your options are? V: I think that we made applications at some time during that basic training, we took aptitude tests of some kind, we took tests, and some time during the end I‟m sure I was told that I was going to flight school in Mineral Wells, Texas. I: So, is that your next stop now? V: Yeah. And that was helicopter flight school, it wasn‟t fixed-wing. Where that, how that got determined, I‟m not sure. �I: Well, the Army needed a lot of helicopter pilots, not as many fixed-wing flight planes, more than likely. V: Right. I: For the Army, would that just be observation planes? Transports, maybe? V: They had some corporate jets to fly, but I think the attitude was that if you knew how to fly a fixed-wing, we want to teach you how to fly, we don‟t want you to bring your knowledge in, so I knew a little bit about fixed-wing, so they put me in rotary-wing. Those who knew rotary-wing they put in fixed-wing. I: Okay, they‟re for the Army, then. Alright, so it was rotary-wing for you. Where in Texas is Mineral Wells? V: West of Fort Worth, maybe 50-75mi. I: And what does the training program actually consist of? V: We started off with a helicopter that was a TH-55, so that was a trainer. And that‟s what we went to. We had an instructor that just took us out, and we started to learn how to fly. I: Did they give you any classroom stuff first? V: Oh, yeah, we had lots of classroom. Lots of classroom. Every day we had classroom. And, I‟m going to guess that each day we had one hour of flight time. At the end of a week or so… That was an eight-week course. 00:08:14 I: Do you stay with the trainer or do they move you up? V: No, we stayed with the trainer at that place. Then we went to, at some point, after we got out of the basic helicopter, the TH-55, we started flying Hueys. Again, we were with a trainer. Each instructor had two or three students. And you would fly in the Huey, all the students would be in the helicopter, a couple in the back seat watching, and then we would just rotate. I: Describe for an outside audience the difference between the trainer and the Huey. V: The trainer, the TH-55, it‟s like a little mosquito. Little tail boom, and a little bubble up-front room, just room enough for two people. The UH-1, there are several models. There‟s a pilot and a co-pilot and in the backseat, you could put maybe five people, in the back seat. They were made, that was the primary helicopter in Vietnam, the UH-1. I: And was it more powerful? V: Yeah, because you could carry a lot more. I: Was it hard to fly from the trainer, or did it flow pretty naturally from one to the next? �V: It flows pretty naturally. There‟s a lot more to it. They‟re turbine engines compared to a reciprocating engine. You learned hand-eye coordination in basic training for a helicopter. 00:09:58 I: Now, as you were going through the different stages with these different kind of helicopters, were there people in the class dropping out or were you all staying with the program? V: We were all staying with the program. I: Okay. When you‟re learning to fly the Huey, are they teaching you the things you might actually do with it if you were in the field? V: Yep. We had simulated landings that we would go out and land in formation. We never did carry troops or anything like that, but we did a lot of LZ landings. I: And did you work on maybe some hoverings so you could lower things? V: Yeah, we did a lot of that. You do a lot of hovering. You learn to do a lot of things a basic helicopter does. One of the hardest things you learn is how to get it off of the ground and keep it in the direction you want it to be in. It wants to spin around the rotor, so that‟s the control problem. I: With the Huey, how long do you think you spent working with that? V: Well, the TH-55, when I first learned to fly, I think I flew it like six hours, and after six hours I was soloed. That was an exciting experience. Nobody had any problems. Everybody soloed just fine; we never had any crashes. Nobody ever bent anything. In the Huey, you don‟t solo in a Huey. There‟s always two people. That‟s different from the TH-55, where sometimes you‟re the only one in it. I can‟t remember how many hours I spent in the Huey. Fifteen or twenty, maybe? 00:12:03 I: From there, did they graduate you to something else? V: From there, out of the class – I can‟t tell you how many were in our class- from there they made a selection, where I think there were three of us that went on to Chinook school. I: Describe for the outside audience what a Chinook is. V: A Chinook is a tandem rotor, two rotors, two engines, and it is a troop or cargo carrying helicopter. We could carry 30,000 lbs. I put big trucks inside the Chinook. I‟ve carried water buffalo. I‟ve carried swing loads; I‟ve carried a lot of those. In the military, what they end up doing is carrying ammo or cannons. I: They are hanging below the helicopter instead of being inside of it. V: You can do both. Sometimes the load were internal loads. We also had what we called bus runs, which is just what it says, moving people from one town to another town just because the military is moving around, people go on R&R, so it could be a bus stop. �I: Was flying the Chinook noticeably harder to fly than flying the Huey? V: There‟s more to it, because in the Huey you almost always had internal loads, so you either put things inside. Now, the Huey is capable of external loads, but very rarely. It was mainly a troop movement device. The Chinook is made for cargo. I: So, the big thing with the Chinook is not because it has two engines and rotors to deal with, as it is that the load may be down there someplace. 00:14:00 V: The load‟s swinging around. The load dictates how fast you can go, your elevation, etc. You don‟t know how much that load weighs until you pick it up, how much power it‟s going to take. So, you have to calculate if you‟re going to a higher elevation, and you‟ve got all the powering in it just to get it off the ground here, and you‟re going to a higher elevation. You‟re not going to have enough power to get it there unless you burn off fuel, so you have to make some judgements I: So, you‟re adding to the load calculations and doing a lot of things while you fly. V: Right. I: Now, did you do all of that at Mineral Wells, or did they move you from base to base? V: No, that was in Fort Rucker, Alabama, the Chinook training. I: Alright. V: That was, I think that was eight weeks also. I: Do you have a sense of roughly when you finished at Fort Rucker? V: Roughly thirty days before I went to Vietnam. I: When do you go to Vietnam? V: I was in Vietnam in, I think, January of 1970. I: So, a year of helicopte bases. It takes a while. There‟s a series of training stages, and you spent, basically, most of 1969, then. V: Much of it, yeah. I: Pretty much the whole year, you‟re kind of in training in one place, and then you get moved to another. Now, when you were in all of these different helicopter training schools, what was daily life like? V: Once we got to Chinook school, we were enlisted until we went through basic flight training. Then they made us E5s automatically. Once we got through that school, the Hueys, I think we were officers, warrant officers. 00:16:07 �I: Now, explain what a warrant officer is. V: A warrant officer is a non-commissioned officer. In my opinion, it‟s the ideal officer because you‟re not attached to a cannon or an infantry troop. You‟re a pilot, in that sense, and that‟s your responsibility. You didn‟t have responsibilities for other groups of troops. I: You‟re not, in this case, commanding peopleV: Correct. I: You just have a particular job. On the other hand, you‟re at a level where you don‟t have to do a lot of the routine duties an enlisted man would do. V: Yes. I: In general, the military uses these people for specialized skills or talents. I guess helicopter pilot is one of those. V: If you‟re a commissioned officer, you had to be either infantry, or artillery, or some other such thing, so you had to go through a whole schooling for that, where the warrant officers did not. We were flight. I: So, you didn‟t have to do any kind of specialized, “How to be a warrant officer” school. You just did your specialized training and did that instead. V: Correct. There was none. I: Alright. Now, would they let you go into an officer‟s club? V: Yes. I: So, you did get that-. V: We were officers, had the full privilege of the officers. We were the lowest rank of all of the officers, but we had no problem. I: Now, before you go to Vietnam, did they give you any kind of preparation for it? V: No. I: Okay. So, as you go along, there‟s nobody telling you that this is what it‟s like in Vietnam or here‟s what to expect? V: All the training was, flew into landings, the training was to simulate the kind of landing that you would do in Vietnam. 00:18:00 I: But they aren‟t teaching you about the country or the culture or anything about Vietnam? V: No. �I: Now, you‟ve finished a lot of the sort of training towards the end of 69. Did you get to go home for Christmas? V: Yeah, we had thirty days after the Chinook training at home. Then, I left. I: Did you think or worry at all about the prospect of going to Vietnam, or did you take it in stride? V: Well, I was married when we were in Mineral Wells, we were in basic, and I couldn‟t live with my wife there. Once we got to Alabama, Fort Rucker, I could live off-base with my wife. So, you have those apprehensions. It was hard to leave. My wife and I drove to Boise, I got on a plane, waved goodbye, and didn‟t know if I was coming back or not. I: What was your start off point in the States? Where did you leave from? V: We few out of Boise, flew into San Francisco or LA, I forget which. I: San Francisco was the most common place to send people out of. Was there a big depot in your report too and then did they assign you? V: No, I don‟t know recall any of it, just that I had a flight number. So, we were just civilians, essentially. We got on and ended up in Vietnam. I: So, you were not on a flight that was all military personnel? They chartered a lot of commercial jets to steward people over, so you might have been on a regular flight with stewardesses and stuff. V: That may have been where we were all headed for, but we weren‟t in uniform. I: Okay. It could have actually been a civilian plane at that point. V: It must have been. It must have been a civilian-chartered plane. We were all dressed in civilian clothes and just dropped off in-. I: Did you go to Saigon? V: Saigon. 00:20:15 I: So, you went into the big airport there. Alright. Once you landed in Vietnam, what‟s your first impression of Vietnam? V: When you‟re just landing, you‟re looking out for gunfire and people wandering around with guns. It was calmer than I expected. There really wasn‟t anything happening I: Did you land during the day or did you land at night? V: I think we landed during the day. I: Okay, so when you get off the plane, what happens? �V: When I get off the plane, I, we got on another plane and I knew that we had to got to Hue. We were assigned somewhere along the way, I knew we had to fly into Hue. I: Did you have orders for a particular unit at that point or was this just to go to-? V: I must have, yes. I: Alright. So, when you go up to Hue, did you go up to Camp Eagle out at Phu Bai? V: We were picked up at the airport, I‟m sure, at Phu Bai by our company executive officer. I remember him very well. I: A Company, what battalion was it that you were in? V: A Company, 159th Assault Support Helicopter Company. I: Now you are with the unit. What was the function of that unit? V: That unit, we had, I‟m going to guess, a dozen Chinooks, and that‟s all we had for aircraft. That‟s all the company was, was either support canal or crew. There were some cooks and some supply people, but predominantly it was just to support the Chinooks. 00:22:09 I: How many people would be on the ground? V: In that company? I: Yeah, as opposed to ones who fly. V: Maybe 150? You know, we had trucks. We had some trucks, we had a motor pool division, we had a supply division, we had a mess hall. I: What was the standard crew for a Chinook? V: Five. I: What were they? V: Pilot, co-pilot, crew chief, and usually two door-gunners. I: So, a Chinook, while it is a transport, still has door-gunners on it. V: Yes. I: You associate those with the Hueys, and you had them too. Okay. Now, the, what base were you operating out of? V: We had our own base, A Company Pachyderms had their own base, Flight Line. I: So, was it on a larger base? Were you at Phu Bai? V: No, no. We were at Phu Bai, and we were a stand-alone from Phu Bai. Each of the companies, there were three Chinook companies. �I: So, you had your own spaces with your own helipads or whatever. So, within this larger base, this is your chunk of it. V: No, it wasn‟t a larger base. I: Were you outside the wire of the main base at Phu Bai? V: We had our own perimeter. Now, I suppose the Phu Bai Airbase was probably part of that perimeter. We could take a vehicle and go over to the airbase, but we were separate from Camp Eagle. I: But not isolated so you could be surrounded by angry NVA. V: Correct. I: So, this really was your world for the time you were there. 00:24:00 V: We had our own perimeter that we were exposed [?], and we maintained that perimeter. I: Now, as a pilot, did you have to do bunker duty, or were you exempt from that? V: No, you still had to do, you had to monitor. Everyone had the responsibility to monitor for a night or so. Or you had to do patrols and walk through to make sure all the enlisted people, make sure that there was nothing strange going on. But, for the most part, that was very, very little. I: Now, were you attached to a specific larger unit, or would you help anybody? Were you attached to the 101st Airborne, or did you work with anybody? V: No, when we got our orders, we would just get our orders to pick up something from here and take it over there. It had no reference to who it was. I: Okay. V: Most of I Corps was the 101st, but I‟ve flown in stuff to the Canadians and their Marines. We did some work for the Marines, the Navy. I: Did you ever do things for the South Vietnamese? V: I‟m sure we did. And when you‟re in a helicopter dropping a load, you don‟t always know who‟s underneath it. You‟re given a location, and that‟s where you drop it. Somebody throws out, that‟s where it goes, whatever it is you‟re carrying. I: Now, you‟re coming in. Do you start piloting right away, or do you have an orientation period first? What happens when you first get to the unit? V: You had an orientation where you would fly with somebody who has been there a while. You fly as co-pilot, until, I don‟t think there‟s a set time. I think you do it for long enough that someone gives you the okay, the CO says, “Put him on his own.” I don‟t remember how long that was. Wasn‟t too long, maybe a few weeks. �00:26:11 I: So, you‟re arriving there in early 1970. Were you busy right away? Were there a lot of flights to make? V: The first thing I remember was when we got to the airbase, this thing that we had to do was bury Bangalore torpedoes. So, that was kind of unusual, and it has nothing to do with flight. You‟re out there messing around with a bunch of explosives, making graphs of where this stuff was buried. I: So, are you just burying them for storage or are you -? V: No, we are burying them for protection. This is inside the wire, but it was places nobody was supposed to be. No walking. But if the enemy came through there, which was not uncommon, theoretically somebody could set off these explosives. I: So, you would detonate them, you wouldn‟t just step on them and set them off. V: Correct. V: They‟re not a landmine exactly in the conventional sense, I guess an IED in a way. V: Yeah, they‟re an IED. And where those wires went and who had responsibility for them, I don‟t know. We were new in country and we were out there burying these things, and the wires went off to somewhere. This was the executive officer, he was the one who picked ups up, that‟s probably why I remember him as much as anything. I: Alright, when you start flying, did the missions seem pretty routine to you when you began? Were you getting shot at or not? V: No, we weren‟t shot at. Chinooks are fairly valuable, so they don‟t put them in too bad of spots. Mainly we were flying up and down the Highway 1, I guess it was, corridor, supplying major bases with one thing or another. We would also fly out to the fire support bases because we were the ones that supplied and we were the only ones that could supply big cargos of ammo. 00:28:27 V:We carried the 105 howitzers out. I: Artillery, artillery pieces, large supplies. V: Water. I: Food, water. V: Food, water, I‟d even carry money, I‟d carry money out for MPC, I think they‟d call it. I know that because the door came open one time. I: So, you had a ton of fine money just flying everywhere? V: It was through the air, it was everywhere. �I: So, you start doing this, now, in the early months of 1970, January, February, March, in there. Did you have to deal with weather issues? Were there areas you couldn‟t fly? V: We put in Fire Base Ripcord. We were the first ones to actually put troops and cannons on Fire Base Ripcord. That was in the early part of the year. I can‟t tell you whether I was the pilot or the co-pilot at that time, but I know we put int in, and it wasn‟t in there very long, and we had to take it back out because we couldn‟t re-supply it because of the weather. The weather was a problem and I assume that they thought it was too vulnerable. 00:29:48 I: Because there were three attempts to establish a fire base on that particular hilltop. The first effort was the 12th of March, or something like that. They land and they go off pretty much in the same day. And they try again April 1st, and the men walk off and leave. It‟s not until about ten days later that they were able to actually establish it. Now, were you flying all of those or did you? You think you flew the first one, March maybe? V; No, I don‟t know which one I would have flown. I think we were carrying the cannons in. I: Yep. V: So, I don‟t know which one of those. I: It either could have been the March one or April 1st. But you remember going out there to this place to put it in and going back to pick the stuff back up again. V: We often carry a cannon, a 105, with another sling-load of ammo underneath it. So, you set the ammo down, move over, and set the cannon down. I: So, you did that for Ripcord. Were you doing that to establish other fire bases? V: Yeah, that was mainly what we did, all up and down the mountains there. There weren‟t any fire bases in the valley; they were all on the mountains. There was a dozen or more in my corps to resupply. I: Were there particular tricks or problems that you had to be aware of and watch out for? You were up in the mountains so… V: Yeah, very cognizant of the wind, of course, and the clouds and the weather, you know. Sometimes we were carrying, we went into, we were removing people who had been shot. Medevacs. If we were the closest to a base, Hueys were usually used for med evacs. If we were the closest ones or the only ones who could get in there because the clouds lifted, we carried people out. I: At what point during all of this do you get the sense that you were in the middle of a war? As soon as you got into the base, or was it later? 00:32:06 �V: Well, early in one of my orientation flights, I was with, I can‟t tell you who I was with. We were flying at a very high altitude, five or six thousand feet, which rarely did we do, and across the headphones came a beep. And my pilot at that time said, “If you hear two beeps, you‟ll never hear the third beep, because that‟s an incoming enemy missile or something.” That got my attention. I never did hear the second beep, but we were flying up over the DMZ at that time, but at a high altitude. So, that, probably, is what made me think this is real. I: Alright, Ripcord gets established as a fire base in 1970. There are other bases in the area you were operating around. Was there a point… Eventually, Ripcord would become sort of under siege, bombarded a lot. Before that period, before July of 1970, were there other difficult situations that you found yourself in? V: [Nods] I: Can you talk about that? V: There was a firebase out west of Ripcord, a much lower elevation, probably half way to the valley, I can‟t remember it, but it was under siege. A lot of mortars were going into that, and they needed water, bad, and I don‟t know whether I volunteered or if that was just the assignment, to take a blivet of water in. We knew that if we were going to spend any time over that hovering, we were going to take a mortar round. We had to come in and drop the blivet of water as fast as we could safely and get out of there before the mortar started. We dropped it. I later heard it rolled off the mountain, but they still got some of the water. We never saw any mortar fire, so we were out of there before anything happened. 00:34:24 I: Now, you say a blivet of water. Was this just a plastic thing that contains a bag, or? V: A big, big, black tube full of water. I‟m guessing 500-600 gallons. I: Was it sort of flexible like innertube material? V: Yeah, you could have dropped it. I was the pilot and my command to the crew chief was get it on the ground and let‟s get out of here. Everybody knew that we were in a hurry, and we probably dropped it a few feet off the ground, instead of setting it on the ground. It bounced or rolled, I didn‟t actually see what happened to it. We were getting out of there. I: And before the Ripcord business in July when your helicopter is hit, were you ever hit with enemy fire? V: I‟m not sure any of the pachyderms were hit, no. Some of the other companies were destroyed. One of them took a cannon, some company of the US took a cannon in the wrong place and the artillery went through the back door. It was sitting out there in the jungle. I: But your own particular group had not taken losses? 00:35:59 �V: No. We were pretty, we did a pick up from a fire fight at night on another base. I want to say Rakkasan. There was a fire fight all night and people were throwing hand grenades back and forth. I was the co-pilot that day, and the pilot chose to hover up the hill because it was in the clouds. But there were people on there that were seriously wounded. So, we hovered up the hill within 20-30 yds of the hill the whole way. Anybody who had been down there, they could have taken us down in a heartbeat. I: Because a helicopter like that doesn‟t have any sort of armor or protection, does it? V: No. I: Did they give you some kind of body armor or anything like that? V: The seats had little windows of body armor, but that was it. We were not protected. I: You really couldn‟t have a whole lot of weight added on, anyways. V: No, not really, no. I: So, you‟reV: Your helicopter‟s vulnerable. For small arms fire, it would have to be hit in the right spot. Much of the body is just fiberglass. You definitely know what you‟re shooting at. I: Now, as we move on in the year 1970, around the first of July. Now, Ripcord Firebase, on one hilltop, is starting to get bombarded on a regular basis with enemy fire and sometimes rockets. Anti-aircraft machine guns were getting set up. It was getting more and more difficult to go in there. So, was it different flying into Ripcord at that point than it normally was for you? 00:38:00 V: Well, normally the helipad, actually, there were two helipads, one helipad. When we carried in ammo, we normally dumped it at the ammo dump, which was on the south side of the hill. We never landed, that was the helipad on the west side, but there were times that they were taking enough fire that we were directed around to the back side. There wasn‟t a pad there, but that‟s where we dropped ammunition, not cannons, because we weren‟t visible to anyone to the south or southwest side. We drop it where the smoke was, we didn‟t have an option. When we were coming in, we‟d tell them we were coming in, and they‟d pop smoke, and that‟s where we‟d drop, no matter what. We didn‟t have an option; we didn‟t know what was going on. I: Now, I had heard that some of the time, you‟d actually drop ammunition close to the actual artillery positions themselves. Do they have sort ofV: I mean, that may be. I have dropped ammo on the northeast side, but they have to hump it up over the top. That‟s what I assume happened. I: Yeah, because sometimes, some of the artillerists talk about having to carry the ammunition and so forth to their positions and so forth. Of course, it was a 155 battery there as well as a 105 battery there, and they were in different places and positions, too. �For you, as the days go by in July, were you noticing that the fire was getting worse, or was it always just the same for you? 00:39:57 V: No, it was, you could tell it was usually getting worse when they‟d drop smoke at an unusual place. There was never, you communicated with somebody, but it was usually just, “We‟ll pop smoke.” It wasn‟t to tell you that anything bad‟s happening, and of course, we can‟t see. We don‟t know anything about it. When you‟re dropping it along the wrong side, you know, you got a pretty good idea that there was something happening. I: Now we are getting to the point where the 18th of July, things are getting a little bit more dramatic. What happens that day? V: Well, that‟s the day that we were bringing in ammunition. We were just called and somebody popped smoke at the regular place on the south side. We just flew in there. That‟s when things got bad. I: What happened? V: We‟re hovering and this happened in not minutes but probably seconds. We are hovering over the load trying to get lower, and I‟m talking to my crew chief. He‟s telling me left or right. And then, all of a sudden, somebody comes on, I‟m flying, somebody comes through the cab. The copilot was a maintenance captain. He wasn‟t an experienced, he wasn‟t a traditional combat pilot. Somebody comes up through the seats, the pilot and the co-pilot, and is hollering something. You can‟t hear, you‟re right underneath the transmission. So, I look back, and when I look forward, it‟s completely smoked. I had no idea what was going on. I didn‟t lower the collective, it just happened instantly. I couldn‟t move the, my thought process at the time was, “I think I would rather have take off up over the hill and take my chances in the trees.” But, by that time, we had lost power, and the rotors hit the side of the hill. Then we were done. I: How‟d you get out of there? 00:42:45 V: My copilot, we were laying on our right side, my copilot couldn‟t get out of his seat because he didn‟t release his seatbelt, so I released his seatbelt. I had popped my door when we were going down. I can remember the little lever, you just pull that lever and it pops out. He must have pulled his door too, because when we were on our side, when we released his seatbelt, I released mine and then I released his, we both went out the door along the dirt. I: Was the helicopter on its side? V: On its side, on its right side. I: Was there space underneath the helicopter? �V: Yes, there was space underneath the helicopter, because we got out and crawled out and up on the hill. The aircraft wasn‟t moving by then. The rotors had stopped. The cyclic had been beating my legs black and blue. We got up on the hill and we started taking inventory of people. There was somebody missing. Apparently, two people missing. One person was trapped underneath the fuel cell. Our crew chief had jumped out, and the helicopter, the right fuel cell was on top of him. So, me and some other individual, I hope to find out who that was, went back underneath. 00:44:17 V: I remember taking my pistol off because I didn‟t want to get hung up. We went back underneath the aircraft, and he was awake, conscious, but he was pinned. We couldn‟t get him out. I took his helmet off and was talking to him, telling him everything was going to be fine. I noticed that the dirt was splattering around us. My thought was, well it was that M-60 on there that was either firing, either the ammunition was firing or something was happening and I told whoever was with us that we had to get out of there. So, we crawled out, and before we got to the top of the hill, I heard Michael scream. The fuel had poured over the top of him. So, at that point, I remember asking someone on the hill, “Do you have a cat or something we can push the aircraft up, push the aircraft up and get him out from underneath it?” There was nothing there. It all happened so fast that we couldn‟t have done anything anyway. Once we got to the top of the hill, we were escorted down into some conex containers, buried. I spent some time in the conex containers, listening to the fireworks. I: Now that things were starting to get brought in, were you on top of the ammunition, with the ammunition at this point? V: Yeah. I: That all starts to go. The ammunition at the 105 position starts to close. You have a whole chain reaction of explosions. 00:46:02 V: When we were crawling underneath the aircraft, we were crawling in between ammunition crates, whatever they were, because the aircraft wasn‟t flat. It was sort of laying on top of stuff, so we were working our way around. It wasn‟t a maze, but… I: And then that goes, okay. That‟s sort of the beginning of the end ultimately for Ripcord. They will end up abandoning it a few days later, in part because of the damage done during that explosion. So, what happens to you afterwards, after the explosions and so forth? Did they get you off of the firebase that day, or did you have to stay there? �V: No, we were there. Again, I don‟t know the timeframe. A couple of hours, I think, because no aircraft could come in. Eventually, things were going off and everything was shaking. Lots of noise. I don‟t know how many of us were in that conex. I remember when they took us down to that conex that whoever was in charge of the hill was there. I told him I‟m sorry, you know. I don‟t recall him saying anything. We sat in that conex container until some Hueys came in with fire extinguishers, airport fire extinguishers. They were bringing them in, and then we got on, a couple of us at least. I can‟t tell you who it was. I don‟t remember who it was. At that point, we were probably not thinking real straight. They flew us from there on a Huey, to, I don‟t remember where. We went back to our base, I guess. I: Did they just put you back flying another Chinook at that point? 00:48:01 V: Essentially. I think I probably had a couple of days off. I: Were you involved when they do the final evacuation off of Ripcord? They probably aren‟t using a lot of Chinooks for that at that point. Did you fly in that? V: No. That was the last time I was in Ripcord. I: Okay. Now, after that, how much more time do you have in Vietnam? V: Well, probably, again, this goes back… I spent a full year there, so it depends on exactly when I got there. I‟m assuming it was the end of January. We still flew plenty of missions. I think I did take an R&R after that. I: And where‟d you go? V: I went to Japan. I: What was that like? V: I‟ve seen enough of it. [Laughs] I: Another Asian country at that point? V: No, that never bothered me. It just wasn‟t home. You don‟t know anybody. No Americans, even though we stayed on a naval base, I believe. Me and one other guy from the company went. There‟s not much to do and nobody to talk to. I: Now, what was daily life like for you in Vietnam? V: Every evening, you‟d spend in the Officers Club. I don‟t think I got drunk too much. We had plenty of to drink. We‟d have good meals. Every once in a while, at the Officers Club, they‟d do their own meal. We had a NCO club that once in a while you were in charge of the liquor count. How much liquor there was, inventory. �00:50:11 I: Would you ever go off base? V: Well, we went off base a couple of times, but not very often. There wasn‟t really too much to do off base. We had a Bob Hope show, but we were flying people in and out, so we didn‟t get to see those kinds of things. I: Now did they have Vietnamese working on the base? V: Yes. I: What kind of things did they do? V: We had a barber. We had gals that would clean the lavatories. We had some bar girls. I guess that‟s about it. I: Did you have much of an impression of them, one way or another? V: Well, I noticed the French influence. They were very pretty people, dark complexion. I never had any problem with them. I: So, you didn‟t have a chance to get to know them? V: No, no. I: Did you deal much at all with the South Vietnamese military? V: Only from the air. Once in a while, you had, I transported troops around every once in a while. You had to be… There were rumors where if we transported them, someone would leave a hand grenade with the pin pulled sitting on the floor. They‟d get off and then you‟d move… Whether that was true or not, it certainly left an impression, but I don‟t know what we could do about it. 00:52:11 V: was a lot of things like that you couldn‟t do anything about other than cross your fingers. I: Okay. Now, at Ripcord, so the later part of 1970, did things quiet down, or were you busy flying all the time? V: We were busy flying all the time. We not only resupplied, we flew, I‟ve taken big aircraft hangar doors and move them from one base to another. Or, you‟d fly the bus run, where you‟d pick up people at point A and fly them to Da Nang. We had cases where we transported aircraft there to Saigon. We‟d trade things. We had, I remember the big red one moved, and we were moving furniture and stuff. In my aircraft, we had a whole bunch of leather captain‟s chairs, leather lounge chairs that we were moving someplace. We just happened to stop at our base and lost two or three of those chairs when we landed. The rest of them made their journey to where ever they were going. There was a bunch of that messing around. �I: When you flew down to Da Nang or Saigon or any place like that, would you ever stay over there? Would you just fly back again? V: Da Nang was common to fly down and back, it wasn‟t very far, but when we took an aircraft down to Saigon, we‟d spend a night down there. It was a two-day affair. I: When you do that, do stay on base or did you go into town? V: No, we never went into town. 00:54:00 I: Did you have any feel how the larger war was going? Were we winning, losing, treading water? V: [Shakes head no] I: Didn‟t think about it? V: Didn‟t think about it. We didn‟t have any radios, we didn‟t get any newspapers. We had no contact with the outside world. We just, the only contact was, “Bob, here‟s your aircraft, take this and go from Point A to Point B.” I: Would you get letters from home? Things like that? V: Yeah. We would get letters. We could get mail. You could get mail and send mail. But the letters, they weren‟t… I: That was family stuff. V: They weren‟t daily. No phone conversations. I: Now as you started to get short, did your attitude change? Did your missions change? Did you just do the same thing until you left? V: I think pretty much the same thing until I left. Probably up to the last week, where I probably didn‟t volunteer. Well, there weren‟t volunteers; you were assigned for this flight. You didn‟t really have much choice of which ones you were doing. I: When you get to the end of your year, are you going to be able to get out of the Army at that point, or are they going to make you go to another base in the States for a while? What will happen? V: Well, when I came back, I had, I think, I must have had thirty days to report to Fort Rucker. I flew home. I flew into Seattle. My wife met me there, and we stayed in Oregon for thirty days and then drove to Fort Rucker with all of our belongings, or at least all we could fit in the Volkswagen. 00:56:02 I: How long did you stay at Fort Rucker? �V: Well, I stayed in Fort Rucker until we were discharged. We got an early discharge. I was a flight instructor, Chinook flight instructor, then I transferred over to Cairns Army Air Base as a test pilot. We were testing engines and other things for the Chinook, which was very enjoyable, but it was lots of boredom and moments of stark terror. I: So, you‟re trying something new and you didn‟t know what would happen next? V: We were testing engines, primarily engines, so you would do all of the, test the limits of the performance of the engine. Run it at the highest RPM, the most power for the longest time. We flew from Cairns Army Airstrip, which is just south of Rucker, and we‟d fly down and fly around the islands of Apalachicola around and around and around and around, then we would come back. I: Now, at this point, was the Army making any effort to encourage you to stay, or were they downsizing and happy to send you away? V: They were, at some point along the way, I had actually started the paperwork to go to the Texas Naval Airbase as a, the astronaut program. It was the beginning of the people going into the astronaut program, I guess. Before that paperwork all got through, I was offered a way out. I had a pretty good idea that I was going to end up back in Vietnam fairly quickly, so I chose to get out. 00:58:12 I: Yep. So, now, at that point, once you go out of the Army, what do you do next? V: When I got out of the Army, we came back to Oregon and I started looking for a job. Where I was looking was in the Boise area, and I started talking to some aircraft companies. What they wanted me to do was crop dust at night, so I decided there wasn‟t much of a future there. I end up no longer flying. I still had a fixed-wing license, so I still did some private pilot‟s flying, but not to any extent. I ended up actually working at a lumber mill. I: Did you make a career out of that business? V: No, I moved around. We‟ve owned a couple of businesses since then in eastern Oregon. We moved to central Oregon from eastern, then back to Portland. I‟ve had a number of professions. 00:59:27 I: When you look back at the time you spent in the service, both in Vietnam and outside, were there other things that stood out in your memory that you haven‟t brought into the story yet? V: No, I had questions about why we were doing smoke on the firebase where it was. My understanding was that they knew there was a problem. Talking to one of the crew members, he saw the people that were firing at us. He was new on the base and he didn‟t know whether he was supposed to fire or not. He probably didn‟t even know what he was looking at until too late. I: So, you still wonder why it was you were sent into Ripcord on that day under those conditions? �V: I want to know why we weren‟t sent around to the back side. I: That might have been a little bit safer. V: The event would never have happened. Whether things would have turned out better for the people on the base, I can‟t answer that. We lost some lives that day. If that was the trade off, I don‟t know. I: That memory is just going to stay with you. V: Absolutely. I think about that often. I: Well, you‟ve actually helped and contributed a big part to the larger stories. I thank you for taking the time to tell a story today. V: You‟re welcome. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_BarrowcliffR2162V Title A name given to the resource Barrowcliff, Robert (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Description An account of the resource Robert Barrowcliff was born in Silverton, Oregon, in 1947. He grew up in Oregon, finished high school, and then got an electrical engineering degree from a two-year school and learned took flying lessons. Once he was out of school, he was drafted into the Army and trained as a helicopter pilot. He went to Vietnam in early 1970 and was assigned to A Company, 159 Assault Helicopter Support Battalion, based at Phu Bai. From there, he flew Chinook helicopters that transported men and supplies across the northern part of South Vietnam. He flew many missions in support of the 101st Airborne Division, notably to Fire Support Base Ripcord, where his Chinook crashed on July 18, 1970, setting off a series of explosions that ultimately led to the evacuation of the base. After this incident, he continued to fly helicopters during his year in Vietnam. After returning from Vietnam, he had thirty days to report to Fort Rucker with his wife, where he served as a flight instructor. He was then transferred to Karen's Army Air Base, where he was a test pilot for new engines. He left the military in March of 1971. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Barrowcliff, Robert Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e57c474e0de8bbc15ed49fdbb4ca04a2.m4v 3cd2e4327600f7a751c9f6f0b008a9b4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6ea71da59d068f0897fac475a559a826.pdf a12e3981ebd419bf75f88876ce07f619 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Veteran: Kenneth Pitetti Interviewer: James Smither Transcribed by Gabrielle Angel Length: 1:50:00 00.00.00 I: We‟re talking today with Ken Pitetti of Wichita, Kansas and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay, Ken, start us off with some background on yourself, and to begin with, where and when were you born? V: Yes. I was born and raised in San Francisco and I had a Catholic school upbringing with a Catholic grade school, Catholic high school. I: And, what year were you born? V: I was born in 1946. I was a baby boomer. I: What was your family doing for a living at that point? V: My dad was a fireman of Italian descent. My grandfather came from Italy. And then, my mom was a housekeeper, but she also worked for the school‟s lunching program. She cooked for the schools. My dad was a fireman, and he also had a second job, so he worked two jobs. This is in San Francisco, inner San Francisco. A great place to be raised, San Francisco was. A really nice time in the fifties. And, I had an older brother and a younger sister, and we were a working, inner-city, middle class family. My brother and I would get up in the morning and do paper routes. My sister would work part-time after school. So, we were a family that pretty much grew up with a work ethic, that everyone had to participate, because we had three kids going to Catholic school, so that was expensive. I: What kind of ambitions or plans did your family have for you? Did they want you to go to college? V: Well, for-for all – for all of us, my parents wanted us to go to college, but I was the only one of my brothers and sisters that went to college, and I don‟t know why. And I don‟t know why, because that was available to us and my parents would say they wanted us to. 00:02:15 V: I was pretty good at athletics. I was always the type of guy who wanted to be the team captain and pretty much excelled in football in high school. I would go on to play at the University of San Francisco, football. And so, football began to make me start shooting for college. I know I got real serious with my studies when I was a sophomore in high school. I worked myself up to a college prep position. At that time, they tagged you. You took a test when you came into a �Catholic school, and they had the As, Bs, Cs, Ds, Es and Fs classes. I started at the Cs, and by the time I was a senior I was with the A class. I don‟t think I shoulda been with them. Actually, it was a neat situation because the guys I went to high school that were in the A class went on to be doctors and lawyers and were really smart. But, they were really neat really helped me to realize I should be reading magazines besides Sports Illustrated. They introduced me to Time magazine, and to different things that were able to introduce me to things that were happening in the world. I had no idea what was going on in Israel before until guys said, “Hey, you ought to read this article.” I began to get involved in events that were occurring throughout the world and how they might affect me way back in my junior, senior year of high school. I: And when did you graduate high school? V: 1964. 00:03:56 I: And what do you remember about, say, the Kennedy assassination? V: I remember the Kennedy assassination was a big thing because you had a Catholic family, Kennedy was Catholic, and it was a big event. I hate to say it was an event, but it was a combination of a historical event, a president was killed. Why was he killed, how did that happen? That was something that I, as a kid, wondered about. How could this guy get on this , you know, this book store and fire this weapon to kill the president of the United States? We did have the Secret Service, you know. And, so, that was the beginning, I think, of our generation beginning to question things that were occurring in history at that time. So, we had that, but what I remember distinctly was in the summer of 1964, the Bay of Tonkin Incident. This was 1964 now, and at that time, my parents had gone on vacation. I stayed home because I was working. And on Saturday- the night that LBJ came on, I think it was Saturday, it was in August I believe that the Bay of Tonkin Incident happened. And there was a bunch of guys, we were all graduating together, and we were all friends. So, there was probably about eleven, and we were all playing. And this was back when we weren‟t drinking anything, we were drinking 7-Up and drinking orange juice and Coke and eating potato chips and popcorn. I mean, that‟s how innocent it was at that time. And, LBJ comes on, Lyndon B. Johnson comes on about the Bay of Tonkin Incident. I happened to take a break, so I was sitting in our TV room, and I yelled out, I said, “Hey guys.” I said, “You guys gotta come in here and listen to this. There‟s something going on out here. You know, there seems to be something happening in Vietnam.” 00:06:00 V: And the guys were saying, “Oh, Pitetti, you know, shut up.” And, you had Rich Nelbo, who spent 18 months as a Marine over there. And, you had Danny White, the Danny White who killed Mayor Mosconi. That was one of my buddies! And he served with 82nd for a while there. And, you had me. Every one of those guys who were sitting �there, whether they got away- whether they got out of the Draft, somehow found a way to go into the Reserves to stay out of Vietnam, or went into the Peace Corps, it all affected, it affected everyone in that room that day, in many ways. So, that was something I remember exactly and how it affected all of us, the Bay of Tonkin Incident, and how we were all affected by the that incident and the commitment to go into Vietnam. I: Alright. Now, did it occur to you at this point that you might get drafted because of that? V: I was- I‟ve read a lot of guys who served in Vietnam, I‟ve seen many of your videos online. I think for many of us, we were raised… My dad was in World War II. My Uncles were in World War II. All of his buddies at the fire department when I would go down there and talk to them were in World War II. My godfather – I know the movie The Godfather makes all us Italians look like we part of the Mafia, but a godfather in an Italian family is a very important person. And, my godfather, Steve Caccia, was with Patton. In North Africa, he got wounded. In Sicily, he got wounded. In the march into Rome, he got wounded So, here I have a godfather with three Purple Hearts. And so, it was expected, I felt, that you served your country. 00:08:06 V: So, when the time came into my Sophomore year, I really, I was majoring in Pre-Med and Biology, but I knew my GPA was not going to get me into medical school, so I was thinking maybe I‟d go to graduate school, maybe I‟d teach. But, I was saying, “Well, I don‟t want to get drafted. I know enough about the military, that you had to go the first two years in ROTC.” It was a land grant college if you were of draftable age, so I had spent two years in ROTC already. So, I said, “Well, when I graduate, I‟ll put in two years of active duty and two years Reserve Unit after that, just do my time.” In 1966, yes Vietnam was warming up. I had Rich Nelbo, the guy that was in there, come back in 1967 after 18 months who said, “Don‟t go.” [Laughs] Danny White came back from Vietnam, said, “Don‟t go.” So, I had that information, but I still had this feeling that I had to serve my country. It just sounds a little emotional, but I-I knew enough history to know the sacrifices that were made for me to be experiencing the affluence and opportunities that I was experiencing, and somehow, I felt that I owed this country my time, and if it was during a war that-. Believe me, you could not live in San Francisco and not know about the Vietnam War, and I read material about the questions about the Bay of Tonkin, especially the second incident that were shadows on the radar, that really didn‟t happen, so before I even went active duty, I knew that the Bay of Tonkin was of questionable veracity. I‟ve read enough and saw- I mean, there were marches every other day in San Francisco against something. My apartment was in the middle of Haight-Ashbury district. So, you saw this whole hippie scene, San Francisco. 00:10:31 �V: The campus of the University of San Francisco is approximately four blocks from the, from Golden Gate Park, and approximately eight blocks from the corner of Haight-Ashbury. So, believe me, you could not live in those times and not be aware of all of these things that were there, Civil Rights, Women‟s Rights, the question of the Vietnam War, it was very adamant on campus. I mean, when we would march on days of ROTC, there would be people around the parade grounds with banners against us, against Vietnam, and so, we lived with that over our heads all the time. And so, but, I still felt an obligation to serve my country. I: How did you kind of view the protestors and stuff? V: I viewed them as somebody, I viewed that they were sincere in what they felt about, I actually understood why they felt that way. I had read enough to know about the questions of the Vietnam War, so I wasn‟t somebody some gung-ho individual. The only problems I have with those who participated in the Anti-War Movement of Vietnam was not their cause. It was what they said to us when we came home. That was wrong. We didn‟t start that war, we had nothing to do with that war, yet we were the low-hanging fruit that they could pick off in airports. And I heard, one of the things you hear from the men that I led in that jungle was what they went to, because when I got wounded, I went back, I was flown back and I went to a hospital. I didn‟t have to face what these guys had to face coming back in the airports. 00:12:47 V: The stories I heard, it‟s shameful. It‟s just bloody shameful what they were called. You know, here were guys that were drafted. They knew nothing, they were 19 or 20 years-old whey they get drafted. They knew nothing about the Vietnam War. And, here they‟re called all these terrible things. And I was called these terrible things when I went on campus. I started when I was going through recovery at what was Letterman Army Hospital in San Francisco, it‟s not there anymore. But I asked the, while I was going through rehabilitation I asked the doctor if I could start my master‟s program at San Francisco State. And he said, “Sure, as long as you‟re back in your bed by 10:00 at night, you can start your classes, you can start your master‟s degree.” So here I am with one leg, my wife is pregnant with our first son, and I had to move on with my life. I had to start getting ready to get a job, and at that time I was going to start teaching, so I needed my teaching credential, I needed to start on my master‟s degree. 00:13:47 V: When I went out there to register, this was in January of 1971 I think, when I was still officially in the Army, all‟s I had, I had hardly any clothes. I had my jacket, my Army jacket, I was with the 1st Division and then I was in the 101st tags, Combat Infantry Badge, I was standing in line with no leg, my leg had not been developed yet so all I had was this cast with an extension of a foot on it, and crutches. And I was a target! And, I mean, I was a target. And you know, �people didn‟t say, “Oh, can we get you to the front of the line?” No. “Screw you, you stand in line, and by the way, we are going to call you all of these names.” And then, my first semester there, nobody would be my lab partner. Nobody would be my lab partner because who I was. And all throughout, I entered academia, I entered where the liberals were, you know. And listen, I‟m a democrat, okay, I‟m a democrat, but I wasn‟t the democrats that called me names and I felt did some shameful things. And throughout, I would be at parties, and somebody would say, “Hey, Ken, I heard you were in Vietnam.” And, you know, there may have been seven of us standing there, but when somebody brought up that, by a minute later everyone had receded, and the only person who would be there would be me and the guy asking the question, and the guy asking the questions, was wishing the hell he would never ask the questions. I would be at parties, and somebody would make remarks like, “You were that dumb to serve in Vietnam? You got a degree and you went to Vietnam?” So, this was the stuff I caught in academia, which you know it really made me more determined to succeed. 00:15:58 V: It said, no, you‟re getting your master‟s degree, and then, no Pitetti, you‟re going to get your doctorate degree, because you are going to stay in academia and you are never going to let these people be in a position to tell you what to do. Believe me, I enjoy it, every Veterans Day, to wear my Vietnam Combat hat across this campus, and it‟s like, screw you, you know. So, I feel the scars of, and I know that what‟s his name is going to be coming out with a PBS thingI: Ken Burns, yes. V: Yes, and I read an article about that and I‟m hoping he does a good job. I have met people who were part of that movement who did call us names, and I‟ve told them to their face that they should be ashamed of themselves. Most of them would agreeI: Mhm. V: -that now that they, now that they are old enough to know that they shouldn‟t have done that. But, I‟ll tell you what. I still carry the baggage of that. And maybe it was something that really spurred me on to be who I am right now. I: Okay. Now, this of course is, a lot of this ideally comes at the end, but I don‟t care. So, now, let‟s move back, though, in your story. Let‟s take you back. I‟d like for you to tell me what you actually did in the ROTC program there. V: Okay, in the ROTC program, nothing really became important until your upper division, until your junior and senior year. Here I was, playing football. I was co-captain of the team. And, we would have the cadre in our- the officers that ran ROTC had one or two combat tours in Vietnam. They knew where we were going. So, we used to take tests in a room not much bigger �than the room we are in right now, and they would have on the corners combat films of Vietnam, volume full up. And they had in front of us, at that time we had stereos. They would have the stereo full blast with marching music and they would walk around throwing fire crackers. They said, “If you cannot think under these situations, then you will not be able to think in combat.” You know, I was wondering why they did that, but, boy, were they spot on. 00:18:26 V: And then we would have what I would call 72-hour no sleep weekends. They would load us up on a bus and take us across the bay to Fort Roberts or Fort Cronkhite or down to Fort Ord, to the different military locations. And we wouldn‟t sleep. They would just do nothing but classroom work, compass work, nighttime compass, drill, compass, compass, compass. Knowing the map, knowing the compass, knowing how many steps you take at night to make 100 meters. They drilled that into us. Okay, 12:00 Saturday night. “Pitetti you‟re the platoon leader. Here‟s your platoon. This is your mission. You have thirty seconds- you have thirty minutes to put a plan together. Lead your platoon.” And you always screwed up, because there was an ambush waiting for you. They would say, “Okay, Cadet, you screwed up. Do you know why?” And I would say something like, “No, sir, the Cadet has no excuse.” And they would say, “Okay, here‟s what you did wrong.” They would say, “You didn‟t have your flank covered. You weren‟t up front with your point man and your slack man.” They would just, very constructively, say what you did wrong. They weren‟t yelling at you. They would say, “This is what you did wrong, and we‟re telling you this because you‟re gonna be in charge of people and lives will matter.” 00:19:57 V: And that was- I got some great training by those people just in the two years of ROTC. I know everybody thinks ROTC is sort of a lame way to become an officer, but the cadre that we had at that time, the NCO cadre as well as the officer cadre at the University of San Francisco, was top notch and they knew where we were going. So, here comes my senior year and you gotta choose a branch. [laughs] Okay, this is 1968. The Tet Offensive had just occurred, and you had to choose a branch. Let me see, there‟s infantry, and then there‟s infantry, and then you get to choose infantry. I was saying, I don‟t know about this, so that the Colonel called me into his office. He said, “Ken, I hear you‟re having trouble about picking a branch.” “Well, kind of, sir.” He says, “Ken, well I‟ve been watching you on that football field and you are a born leader. You are infantry.” [Chuckles] �And I said, “Yes, sir.” And he said, “Could you sign this to dictate the branch that you‟re going in?” I said, “Yes.” [pen on paper noise] Infantry. I: Right. V: So here I go. Okay, so I go to infantry. So, I spent an extra semester. My first year of college, I didn‟t play ball. And then, because I had, because I majored in Biology, I had labs. So, I couldn‟t get my whole curriculum in in four years. It took me an extra semester, which I was able to play an extra semester of football in the fall of „68. So, I didn‟t go right until the summer of ‟69. I: M-kay. So, when do you actually graduate from college, then? V: Officially, I graduate in the fall of 1968. I: Okay, so, December, at the end of fall term? V: Right, December of 1968, yeah. 00:22:00 V: Now, I look back at this, and had I not, if I graduated on time, had I arrived in the 101st Airborne Division, I would have been either in the lead-up to Ripcord or in the A Shau. [Laughs] Life takes crazy turns. I: Alright, so now after, so now you graduate at the end of ‟68. V: There wasn‟t a position opening in what was called Infantry Officer Basic Training at Fort Benning until early, until late spring. So, I went in then and trained at Fort Benning, well, I trained at Fort Lewis for what we called Summer Camp, ROTC‟s summer camp, which was six weeks of basically boot camp. And then, I went out to Fort Benning in Georgia to start on IOBC, which the other graduates at West Point and VMI and Citadel, everybody who graduated and was in the infantry went into Fort Benning IOBC. I: Alright, so what did that program consist of? V: IOBC was an extension of what I was doing in ROTC, I think. It was map courses, given small unit tactics. Okay, you‟re the squad leader. Okay, Pitetti, you‟re the second squad leader, and so and so is the squad leader and so and so is the platoon leader. And, that would change daily. Everybody would get a position. You‟d go through the typical infantry training. At that time, we were still, I think we were still using M-14s. I don‟t think they had M-16s for all of the training I did. I remember using an M-1 when I started ROTC. I: Old World War II rifles. 00:24:10 �V: Old World War II rifles. In fact, I qualified with the M-1 one of the weekends we went there. And then we got M-14s for the rest of ROTC. And, I didn‟t really see an M-16, I don‟t think, until Fort Benning, Georgia. I think up at Fort Lewis, Washington, I think we still had M-14s. And, then I first qualified with the M-16 there at Fort Benning. So, okay, you did your qualifications. You‟d take your M-16 apart and put it back together again. Qualify throwing a hand grenade. Qualify with the M-16 machine gun, what an M-79 grenade launcher is. All the basic small arms, uh, weapons. Map courses, map courses, compass courses, night compass courses, over and over again. And running you, and doing what Infantry people are going to do. I think the Army trained us well to prepare us. I don‟t think anything happened in Vietnam that I wasn‟t really prepared to do. So, I think, somewhere along the line, we got, we got good training. 00:25:30 I: And was radio and communication a part of that too? V: Yes, and artillery. Artillery. [Laughs] Calling in artillery. Using the map, how do I adjust artillery? That was pretty much drilled into us. The other thing was, we got a total of three hours of working with TNT and C4. A total of three hours. Now, in Vietnam, C4 was used a lot, and I kinda knew how to use it, but the first, I was with my platoon for maybe ten days, and they said, we‟re getting ahead, but. So, you got three hours of so-called training in explosives. So, we get in there, we get in an area, said, “Okay, now you gotta blow an LZ.” “Okay, umm, let me see. I think I‟ll put C4s up against the trees, and then I‟ll take a det chord and I‟ll connect all of the C4s, and let me see, I‟ll put this explosive into the first C4, so maybe if this explodes maybe the det chord will just explode all the rest and the trees will go down. So, I hook it all up, and we do it all, and my radio man says, “So Lt., do you know what you‟re doin‟?” And I said, “Oh yeah. Yeah, I‟ve got this.” So, we come back and we pull out, fire in the hole, boom. [Noise] All the trees go down. I look up, holy cow, and my radio man goes, “That was cool, Lt.” So, now, I walk out into the middle of the area and go like this to my platoon. [Claps, laughs.] So, after three hours I became the expert. And, I told my radio man, he goes, “Man, you really know what you were doing, Lt.” And, I said, “Yeah, good training. Just good officer training.” I: Alright, how long was the infantry school? V: Ah, four months, I think. I: Alright, was there any notable difference between the West Pointers and the rest of you? �V: Um, I think there was a little bit with the West Pointers and the guys from the Citadel. I think they felt that- I called them abused children, because they felt that they had gone through all this tough thing, and when they found out I was from San Francisco, they said, “Oh, you‟re a hippie, man. You‟re not Infantry.” And I‟m saying, “Oh, alright. Whatever, whatever you guys gotta say so.” 00:28:13 V: And there was a limit of ring knocking [knocks on table] with the West Pointers, and it-it-it… Look, if you‟re thinking about putting a- having a career in the military, even then, you better go to West Point, you better go to Academy, the Citadel, the VMI. You know, that‟s the nature of the beast. When you go to those schools to train you to be a military person. I just wanted to serve my country and go back to civilian life. So, yeah there was, but I got into a group of guys from the Citadel, and they were absolutely crazy. They were great guys. They, they adopted me. They adopted me and said, “Y‟all better stick around with us and we‟ll show you how it‟s done.” So, I said, “Okay,” and I went along with them. [Chuckles] I: M-hm. So, when did you finish all of that? V: Oh, I left there in late- early fall. I: Okay. V: Of ‟69, and was assigned to, at that time it was the 24th Division at Fort Riley, Kansas, which became the 1st Division at the end, towards ‟70, I think. ‟70, ‟71, the 1st Division came back to Fort Riley. But, at that time, it was the 24th Mech and I became a platoon leader in the 24th Mech and we were the back-up for Europe. So, we did everything armor. It was APCs, and tank sort of, uh, military movement. But, then, this was, at that time, there was a gas shortage. They couldn‟t afford- they couldn‟t afford to keep the APCs and tanks going. 00:30:10 V: So, they said, “Okay, you guys are now straight leg.” Which was good. So, we, when we did our maneuvers we would be Infantry. And, there was a lot of guys who had just come back from Vietnam and were part of my platoon and were waiting for, they had four, maybe six months left before they got out. And I said to them, they were in my platoon, I said, “Look, guys. I would appreciate when we would go out and do these maneuvers that you teach me whatever you think I should know as a platoon leader in Vietnam.” And they were really good about it. They said, “Well, Lt., let‟s go out on an ambush tonight.” I said, “Okay.” �And, so, they would take me out on an ambush and show me how to get out of the perimeter they were in, where to go. First of all, do this, get away from your perimeter. Sit low. How to gradually move to your ambush location, how to set your claymores up. These guys, they could have said, “Screw you, Lt., I don‟t care anymore.” But, I think they had saw enough in Vietnam to realize that maybe I could save some lives. And I thought, I thought those guys were really good, and I learned a lot from them at Fort Riley. I: So, how long were you there? V: [Exhales] Six, seven months? I got my order maybe five months there? That I was going. I: Before we move out, what was kind of daily life like for you there? V: At Fort Riley? I: Yeah. V: You showed up to your, uh, at 7:00, around the front of your formation. They found out that I had played, that I was the jock of the company and the brigade. And they said, “Okay, Pittetti, you‟re going to lead the daily dozen, and you get to take them on a two-mile run.” 00:32:03 V: So, that‟s what I did most mornings before we started anything. And then, again, there would be mortar training, there would be keeping the APCs going, going out in the APCs, playing war games. You, you leave on a Monday morning and you come back on a Saturday morning. At that time, you went Saturdays too. You went Saturdays until 12 noon. And you would play war games out in the back lots of Kansas here, up at Fort Riley. You‟d play war games, red against the blue army and who could beat them. You went about being miserable when it was cold. That‟s what we did, you played war games. I: Were you living on base at that time? V: I was living in the BOQs on base, yes. I: Alright, so you weren‟t married yet at this time. V: No, but I met my future wife, she was at Kansas State University. Fort Riley was, oh, twelve, thirteen miles from Manhattan, Kansas, where K State was. Carol was a junior, so I, this is not going -. I met her one night at a party, and the rest is history. We got married right before I went to Vietnam. I: So, at K State, they didn‟t just stay away from the military? V: Well, they were told to, but with my Italian heritage, I could talk to people. I met her at a party. We got into conversation. She‟s really beautiful; even now, she‟s just a really beautiful lady, both inside and out. I just want to say this, I don‟t know how many of your people say this, but, uh, our wives are Vietnam Veterans, too, because they had to put up with us when we came �home. Nightmares, not sleeping, not wanting to talk about it. You know, I woke up one night from a nightmare and I was strangling her. I had thought she was an NVA soldier who had just come into my foxhole. And, and, she stayed with me. That‟s guts. That‟s commitment. So, I just want to say that she is, she is not only been part of my life, but she is my life. 00:34:22 I: Alright, so, now before you leave Fort Riley, did you yourself switch from the 24th Division to the 1st division? V: Yeah, we did. In fact, my last two weeks there, I think the last two weeks they switched over to it, to this division. And I was like, on my way out, you had to switch the patch on your uniform, ah jeez. And then, I got orders to go down to jungle training in Panama before. They were doing that a lot now, I think they were doing that to a lot of guys, that before they went to Vietnam, and this was good training. Let me tell you, I think those three weeks in Panama was really, because that really got you back into small units. And again, I think the cadre, both the officers and the NCOs, down at that Panama jungle school were really top notch and really prepared for what you were going to face in Vietnam. Good people, good training. I: Okay, and from there do you get a leave or-? V: Yeah, I get a leave. Three weeks? And Carol Sue kisses me goodbye at Travis Air Force Base. We made the Arctic go from there to Anchorage, Alaska, to Japan, into Tan Son Nhut Air Force Base. Yeah, there‟s a story here that I can tell you. 00:36:00 V: So, so we arrive Ripcord‟s going on. And, I don‟t know anything about the Ripcord. I don‟t know where the 101st is. I know nothing. I: So, when are you arriving there? V: I‟m arriving in August. I: August of –? V: August of ‟70. Ripcord had just got over. I: That ends in July. V: Yeah. Ripcord is July 23. I arrive in early August. Okay, and so, you arrive there, and they say to change your money and go get your equipment. This is Vietnam, and you‟re in a different country. And they say this- you‟re always arriving in the middle of the night, okay? You go to your barracks or whatever, get some sleep, and tomorrow you‟re going to get up and we‟re going to have a formation or whatever, get all your equipment. And then, by that night, you‟ll have your assignment. �Okay, so I look up on the board: 101st Airborne Division, okay? Okay. Second of 506 [2nd Battalion, 506th Regiment]. Okay. So, they, we had, they were going to move us out that night and fly us C-130, I think, up to Phu Bai. Phu Bai to Hue, and up to Camp Evans. I: M-hm. V: So, I‟m walking to the so-called Officer‟s club. It was a big parachute covering an area that had beer and warm drinks. So, a guy is coming at me, he has his green beret on. Captain. And it was, it was, it was Mike Brady who I went to ROTC with at U of SF. So, Mike‟s coming, and I say, “Mike!” And he goes, “Ken!” And, we are talking. So, he says, “So, where‟s your assignment?” I said, “I‟m going up to 101st.” He goes, “No.” He says, “Let me make a phone call. Ken, let me make a phone call and I‟ll get you to another unit.” 00:38:06 V: And I said, “Why, Mike?” And he says, Mike, Mike says, “You don‟t want to go north.” “Okay, listen, you know, I got assigned there, I‟m going there.” And he said, one more time, “Let me go in and make a phone call.” I says, “No, Mike, I got my assignment and I‟m going.” And he says, “Okay, then. You‟re not buying another drink the rest of the night, okay?” Now, go forward, I‟m in the hospital in San Francisco, at Letterman Hospital. One night, in comes Mike. And he stands in front of the bed like this. And he said, “Didn‟t I tell you to let me make that phone call?” I said, “Shut up. Come here, Mike.” And we hugged one another. So, anyways, we fly up there to Phu Bai. The C-130 lands, and they say, basically, “We‟re going to taxi in, turn around, and then start taxing out, so you better not ask this thing because we ain‟t stopping.” Well that says, I think there‟s something happening up here. So, I get out, and we get our equipment out. I need to relieve myself, so we have these piss tubes that they were called. So, I go over there, and I piss, and we‟re looking at the mountains, these mountains. So, I‟m looking at these mountains, and this NCO comes up next to me and he‟s using the tube. And, I look at these mountains and the sun is just coming up. He said, “Take a good look at those mountains, Lieutenant, „cuz that‟s where you‟re gonna be.” �And I said, “Thank you, Sergeant.” So, there you go in, you go into P training. Five days of P training, repelling out of a helicopter, making sure the M-79 and how it works, the M-60 and how it works, how to work it. 39:00 So, we‟re up out, outside Camp Evans, right outside Camp Evans. We‟re in the bleachers and we are getting the drill on the M-79. And there‟s the beginning of the lowland mountains over here. These Cobras are coming in about one kilometer away from us and they are just blasting this area with 40mm rockets and hitting them with things. And the guy goes, “Oh, it looks like there is a platoon in trouble. Anyway, guys, the M-79…” I: [chuckles] 00:39:52 V: [laughs] Okay. That night, we get hit with rockets, and then the next day, the company, the Charlie Company chief comes to pick me up. And he goes, “Lt. Pitetti. Where‟s Lt. Pitetti?” “Here.” “Jump in.” So, we go through, this is the middle of the night, so we‟re going up and down Camp Evans. We come to the headquarters, the Charlie Company headquarters. We pull in and he lets me off. So, I go in. The top sergeant is sitting behind a desk. He sat at this desk, and there were like, beer cans all over the place. He‟s sitting there, smoking a cigar, and I walk in. “Another lieutenant.” “Yeah.” “Okay, drop your shit right there, Lt. Want a beer?” I said, “Well, you know.” He said, “Trust me, you better have a beer, because where you‟re going tomorrow, you ain‟t going to see any of this stuff.” “Okay, alright, Top. You know, I got you.” So, I take it. So, anyways, the next day I get pulled up, flown out to Rakkasan I: Let‟s back up a little to a couple of things in this transitional phase. You referenced P training, what was that? V: P training was five days where you were in country. Basically, they give you five days to adjust, and they‟re introducing you to the enemy. What is the standard operating procedure of the enemy? The ones you were up against were the most well-trained North Vietnamese Army soldiers, there is. This is not Viet Cong territory. This is NVA territory. Here‟s a few ambushes. Here‟s-here‟s what you‟re looking for, here‟s what your point man is looking for, is cut off trees. �When you see cut off trees, that means that you got a bunker up ahead of you. They‟ve sparsed the trees, so the bunker can have its rifle bars trained on you. So, when you‟re out, and you start seeing these things, you back off, because you‟re getting into a bunker complex. Ah, stay off of trails if you can. How they set up. You leave anything, they will use it against you. Police your area. Noise security. Just basic infantry stuff that should be reminded of before you go out in the field. 00:42:26 V: So, it introduces you to the enemy you‟re facing, the types of ambushes they have, things like, if you see cut off trees just clear the area out for an ambush, you‟ve got a bunker. What to do when you hit a bunker, how to approach a bunker. All the basic things that anyone has to know at high corps at that time against the North Vietnamese Army and their techniques. So, standard operating procedures, relearning the M-60, relearning how to shoot your M-79, throwing a grenade, just to remind you how things are done. Rappelling out of a helicopter. Those were things that were done in P-training. I: So, was any of that new or useful? V: No. All of it, all of it was always useful. How to get in and out of helicopters. It was always useful. It was redundant sometimes, but you know, in combat, there‟s nothing wrong with redundancy. I: And then you mentioned the rocket attack. V: Yeah, 122 rockets. You had hills right outside of Camp Evans. And you, we were in the low lands, right next to the coast of Camp Evans and Camp Eagle, which for us was right off of the coast. And you, if you went about five miles, you hit rice paddies. And then you had the coastal mountains that came up, and then they came down, and they you open into the mountains. A huge mountain range that was between you and the Laotian border. And that was your area of operations. Sometimes, they would come down, and they would set up 122 rockets and knock off, or try to, or maybe 82mm, just as close as they can and drop two or three or four, and just get out of the area, and try to, you know, just see what they could hit. 00:44:27 I: So that was something over very quickly. V: Yeah. Ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-boom. The sirens would go off, like yeah, okay, you know. Yeah, they hit us. Yeah, so the sirens seemed to be always going off after the impact. Yeah. I: So, we can take you back on your story now. So, basically youV: So, I take a Chinook, a big Chinook with all this equipment on it. And, now, you‟re trying to – I‟ve got all of this equipment, I‟ve got a to try to stay in the chinook and it‟s coming up. I‟m kinda looking out, seeing the low lands go and the coastals. Then, I look up and there‟s Rakkasan, our base at Rakkasan. �So, you fly in, you get off and go up into the bunker complex area like all firebases had. And so, I don‟t- I‟m looking for Charlie Company. I‟m walking up, and these artillery guys were there. They said, I said, “Where‟s Charlie Company?” “You new Lt.?” “Yeah.” [scoffs] “Charlie Company is right over there.” [laughs] Okay, so, I go down. So, I‟m walking around. So, these bunkers, you know you got all these bunkers with stairs that go straight down. And I don‟t know what bunker Charlie Company is in. So, another guy walks by, and I said, “Hey, where‟s Charlie Company?” “You new Lt?” “Yeah.” “Huh, Charlie Company is right down there.” So, I go there. There‟s four guys sitting down there, no shirts on. They‟re playing bridge. So, I… “You the new Lt.?” “Yes.” [both laugh] 00:46:05 V: “Is Captain Lamb here?” So, Captain Lamb, who‟s all of 5‟8”, 130lbs., looks up and he says, “I‟m Captain Lamb. And you‟re Lieutenant -?” “Pitetti.” “Pitetti. I didn‟t know how to pronounce that name.” I said, “It‟s Italian, sir.” He goes, “You know how to play bridge?” “Yeah.” “Okay, good,” he said. All of the sudden, we have impacts. 82mm impacts. Pwah-pwah in the air. And I‟m looking like, should I do something? He goes, “Sit down, Lt.” “Well, shouldn‟t I go out to my platoon?” �“Look it, they‟ve been taking care of themselves pretty well before you arrived, okay? So, they‟ll know what to do.” I: [laughs] V: So, I go out and take over my platoon and this is-this is. A lot of times people say they‟re the new guys when they‟re all just enlisted men, but for a lieutenant, it‟s hairy, too. So, you go out there. I go out there to my platoon and my bunker area. So, a guy comes up to me. “You new Lt.?” “Yes.” “Here‟s the f-ing compass, here‟s the f-in‟ map, and this f-in‟ platoon is all yours. And, Lt.? You better have your shit together.” And he walks off. So, that was, that was the introduction to, to, hello. 00:47:40 V: So, Captain Lamb says, “Get your stuff, go around and introduce yourself to your platoon. Then, come back here.” So, I said, “Fine, okay.” I come back here. He goes, “We got about five days before we go back out in the field. We‟re up here at the firebase, we‟re pulling perimeter for the firebase. Look, you will be actually able to get half a pint of milk tomorrow for breakfast. Enjoy it. Okay, you‟re going to get some hot food, just one hot food meal a day. Enjoy it. And, I want to get you up to snuff here before we head back out to the field, okay?” “Okay, right.” “So, tomorrow, I want you to take a squad out and riff the area. Go around the perimeter of the firebase to see if there‟s any trails or anything that looks suspicious.” “Okay.” So, I go out there and we do a riff. We stop every once in a while, in position. Ya know, I‟ve got point man, slack man, me. Think I got that down. So, we‟re going around. We come back up. I come back to him. And he said, “Well, how‟d it go?” It was like six hours that we were out there. So, I said, “Well, there doesn‟t seem to be anything out there.” He goes, “I got a pretty good report back from some of the guys. Said you kind of knew what you were doing. This is a good start.” I: [laughs] �V: So he says, “Come out here.” So, he‟s standing, he‟s got his back to outside, looking towards Laos. He says, “I want you to look over my shoulder. Don‟t stare, just look over my shoulder.” This is Captain Lamb. I just kind of went with it. I said, “Yes.” “Do you see that sort of terrain, that hill about a click out that you can see the top of it,” he goes. “Okay. Tomorrow, you‟re going to combat assault there because some equipment was left out there. You gotta go out, and I want you to get that equipment. Load it back on helicopters. Then,” he said, “I want you to lead your platoon back here, and I want you here by nightfall.” “Okay.” 00:49:43 I: Who had been running your platoon before you got there? V: Ah, good question. I believe Lt. Campbell had? Lt. Jim Campbell, who I communicated with just recently. Burkey, Sgt. Burkey was a platoon sergeant. Ah, another story. So, that same day I took over the platoon, Burkey is running. He had been taken out of the field, he had, he was short, he had maybe 30 days left. He was running re-supply from Camp Evans up to Rakkasan, Firebase at Rakkasan. And he found out that there was a new officer to take over 3rd platoon. He also was involved in this, “Are you the new Lt.?” So, he comes over to the bunker and I‟m sitting there, and he goes, “You the new Lt.?” I said, “Yeah.” He goes, he walks over and goes, “I‟m Sergeant Burkey.” He says, “You take care of my boys, Lt., you hear me? You take care of my men.” “Yes, Sergeant, I will do my best to take care of your men.” So, this was all. So, anyways. I go out, okay, and Lamb says to me when I‟m going out to do this, he says, “You‟re going to be in lead ship. That‟s the way we do it here, Ken. You‟re lead ship, and you‟re responsible for, once you land, to bring in all the rest of the helicopters, to bring in your platoon, and then reload the supply and lead your people back here.” “Okay.” “By the way,” he said, “we‟re going to hit it with artillery and you‟re going to have Cobra gun ships with you.” You know, [gestures], okay? �So, we‟re up there, circling, about six choppers, about six Hueys. And below us, they‟re just hitting the shit out of this thing with artillery. I don‟t think it was from Rakkansan. It had to be from another flyover, O‟Reilly or something. It was 155s, and 155s were too under range at that place, so the artillery had to be coming from another Firebase. So, I‟m watching as the place is exploding and I‟m going, “Okay, I‟m glad they prepped me for this.” 00:52:02 V: And then, my helicopter peels off by itself and starts approaching this thing, and through, from the outside come these two Cobras. And they are just hitting this thing with rockets. [Rocket noises]. And I‟m looking over there, and as we go the machines, the M-60s off the side of the helicopter are just strafing the hell out of this thing. And the bullets, the casings, are coming in and hitting my helmet, you know? So, and this is funny you know, I gotta replay this. So, I jump, we jump off of the helicopter and I hit and I roll, and you know, I‟m upside-down, and I‟m backwards, and I‟m laying there. We‟re all laying there, and nothing‟s happening, so I look over to my radio man and he says, “Okay, Lt., pop a green smoke and bring in the rest of the choppers.” “Got it.” [pats himself] “I don‟t know where my green smoke is.” And he says, “What? You don‟t know where your smoke is?” “No.” He says, “Look, Lt., all‟s you have to do, all‟s we‟re asking you to do, is pop the green smoke and bring the rest of the platoon in.” I said, “I got that, but let me look and see if I can find the green smoke.” So, he‟s on the radio, and he says, “Okay, you want me to tell these people up here that everything is on hold until you find the green smoke?” I said, “Don‟t say anything. [pause] I got the green smoke!” And he goes, “Lt., now go out there and pop it and bring in the rest of the, the rest of the helicopters. Now, you know how to do that, right?” I said, “I got it.” So, I pop the green smoke, bring in the rest of the platoon. We get back to the firebase that night, come in, and so, I report to Captain Lamb. He said, “Hey, you didn‟t do bad.” He said, “You know, I got some good reports on you.” He said… I: Is there anything notable about the walk back? It was your first time actually out there. 00:54:02 �V: We went, I went very slow. And, you know, one of the things I think that really impressed the guys is that I was up front. Point man, slack man, me. And, we would go slow and sit down for a while, listen. Go slow, sit down for a while, listen. Didn‟t take trails, cut through some jungle. And, then, we had approached the perimeter from a certain location to be let into the wire. They were waiting for us at this place so you couldn‟t approach it from any other location. I got them back there, no casualties. Everything went well. You know, neat. I think I know what I‟m doing. So, that‟s when Lamb begins to say, “Well, maybe this guy will be good, maybe he‟s going to work out.” I: And what was your impression of Lamb himself? How good of a commander was he? V: Lamb was a… quiet commander, so when he talked, it was best that you listened. He was not a rah-rah guy. He was, I think this was his third tour. He was, he was, uh, he was – I: A Mustang? V: A mustang. He was, he spent his first tour as an NCO. And, he knew his stuff. I mean, he was a good Company Commander, I felt. I mean, I only had one company commander to compare him to, but I felt he handled me pretty damn well in determining what I should do. I gotta tell you another story, and this is an example of how, given that it‟s 1970, you get the attitude that is not that high sometimes. There was one time that when I first arrived that Lamb set a listening post over there past the re-supply landing post, so that you have three people over there at that listening post. “I want you to go over there with a radio man and see how they‟re doing.” 00:56:16 V: “Okay.” So, I went over there. They are sitting in a circle playing cards, with their bags, just playing cards. Just, they were on a picnic. So, well, how do you handle this? Okay, so I walk in and I say, “Who‟s winning?” They all look up. “Are you the new Lt.?” “Yes.” Now, I said, “Look, I‟m going to put you in positions I think you should be in. And, when I leave, you can go back to playing cards, but then your parents may get, “The Department of the Army regrets to inform you that your son was killed.” And I may have to write back to your parents and say, “Well, I didn‟t know them very well, but they were healthy the last time I saw them.” I said, “It‟s your call. You can take your positions and stay there and do your job as a soldier, or you can go back to playing cards, but I‟ll be back sometime.” That‟s the way I kind of handled things, in terms of, I didn‟t feel it was my place. You had Leaf in the front, you had the understanding that you had 19- 20- year-old kids who had been hearing all of this anti-war information, had probably had demonstrations outside wherever they did their bootcamp, their AIT, were actually questioning why they were there, and here they were. And, �you know. That‟s the way they felt and you had to tell them what they should do, but when you turn your back, they could do whatever they want. But, basically, they were great guys. They were good men. 00:58:09 I: Now, how long did you actually spend in the field? V: I was there for almost four months before I got wounded. I: And then, proportionally, how much time did you spendV: I spent I: Not on firebases orV: I was on that firebase for four days, and then I was never on another firebase. We had a short stand down that we went down to Eagle Beach, but most of the time, we were in the field. That was the standard operating procedure of the 101st, that you had any battalion that was in charge of a firebase, and you had a company around the firebase for security, and you had companies out in the jungle on patrol. I: And when you‟re out on patrol, what‟s the purpose of that? V: I think, looking back, I think we were bait. [Laughs] We were supposed to identify areas that we felt there was a lot of travel going on, pull ambushes, identify bunker complexes, just try in any way to prevent the movement of the enemy, prevent them from developing stores, caches of food or weaponry. That was, I mean, that was basically what we were looking for. 000:59:58 V: I felt that, I mean, I felt that we kinda were bait because we knew once we came in contact, we had all this support fire. And most of the time, that was where most of the enemy casualty occurred. It didn‟t occur from the M-16 or the M-60s, but sometimes it did. But the NVA were really good about getting their wounded and dead out of the area. They would not leave their people. But, where I think they took a lot of their casualties was our support, our artilleries, our F-4 and Cobra support. That‟s where I think they took their loss. So, I think looking back, that‟s what we were there for, to bait them, to make contact, and then bring supporting fire on them. I: So, at this point this tape is about up, so we are going to pause here. I: We were talking, now, about your time out in the field of Vietnam. You had learned the ropes and sort of made the acquaintance of your men. About how many men did you actually have in your platoon? V: Depended on the day. I don‟t think there was- you were supposed to have thirty. Actually, ten to a squad, that makes thirty, then you had your platoon sergeant, your platoon medic, your platoon radio man, and your platoon leader. So, really, you should have 34 people. �I: Would you, I guess the forward observers would be at the company level. V: The forward observer would be with Cpt. Lamb, wherever Cpt. Lamb was. Cpt. Lamb would maybe be with second platoon for a while. Maybe he would be with… He never was with me. He was with First and Second Platoons. So, yeah, it was platoon operations. You worked as a platoon. So, again, you should have 34. I was lucky to have- 28 was the most I ever had. So, you maybe had seven to nine in a squad, and many a night, I would take the CP, which I should be in the middle, and I would go to the perimeter in order to fill in the perimeter. 01:01:59 V: Now, we were supposed, this is something I will say. There were decisions that had to be made, that, it‟s like we talked about Hill 902, and how, perhaps, they shouldn‟t have been there that second night. And I know people watching this stuff don‟t know what we‟re talking about. [Pitetti‟s company had been overrun on that hill on July 2, 1970 because they had stayed there a second night] And, perhaps, another company commander would have found a reason to move off that hill. I would be called up and say, “You should put an ambush at this location.” If I, if I take an ambush out, they‟re up all night. My platoon is down to two squads. Maybe, maybe sixteen men in a platoon pulling the perimeter, with another group maybe 100-150m away. So, I would call off my ambush, and there would be no ambush. We would be in a platoon perimeter. So, you had to do those sometimes, because day after day, your men became exhausted. There were so many things you had to worry about as a platoon leader: A, you‟d get the order in the morning of where to be by that night. Captain Lamb would say basically that was where he wanted us to be by that night. You instructed your platoon, your squad leaders and squad sergeant because you knew because by that day, every day, you could be gone. You acquainted them with what you were doing, where in the map you were, what the direction was, what the purpose of that day was, where you should be that night, and, were something to happen, where was your rallying point, where do you get your men to with the helicopters. 01:03:57 V: Now, during that day, you had, you‟d go down the ravines, I mean, the map was just contour lines, and you would go down into the ravines and up into the ravines. You were, a, you had to find in the line of march water, because guys would go through a gallon and a half of water a day. So, you made sure you crossed the Green Line to get water for your men. You didn‟t want them to reach position that night with empty canteens. So, you had that to worry about. You had to stay off trails, but you had to be at a certain location by that night. So, you would walk down this trail for maybe 100m and then you‟d get off and go this way to get off of them. �You were constantly, you had your point man and slack man, and any time the point man saw something he didn‟t like, he would go like this, and he would look at me, and he would come up, you would go down, you would go up, you would look, you would assess the situation. Do I just continue? Should I bring my squads up flanking? Are we into a, flanking me? Are we in a situation where I need to watch my flanks? So, all of these were decisions you had to make, and where were you on the map. Where were you on that map? Because, if you did not know, and if you got in trouble, you couldn‟t direct artillery, you couldn‟t direct leadership, you couldn‟t bring in medevac. And, by the way, as you‟re going along here, what if you do get hit? Where are you going to medevac? Where are you going to bring your guys to medevac? How‟re you going to get there? 01:05:54 V: So, there‟s all this logistic, and, by the way, guys are running out of boots. Guys need boots. So, you better get back to the S4, you‟d better get back. These boots, these pants are falling apart. So, you had those logistics that your platoon sergeant had to worry about. He was in constant communication with you. So, you had those logistics. And, okay, when you arrive that night, how are you going to get into that night defensive position? Because you better not do the same thing every night, because you had trail watchers. You knew you had trail watchers on you. You knew the NVA was watching you, every day, and they would know how you, what your line of march was, how you would set up for a night defensive position. So, you had to come up with different ways of setting up your night defensive position, and never the same thing. And, so, all that you were trying to run, and then, by the way, you were on two hours energy. Everyone was on until 10:00 that night, and then you‟d go on two-hour watches. You would maybe get six hours of broken sleep that night, pulling, maybe a 2-4 watch. And then you‟d get to do the same thing the next day. That was the most exhausting, both physically, mentally and psychologically, that I think I have ever experienced, was trying to stay up like that every day. I: What kind of system did they have to keep you supplied? V: Every four days, you got a resupply. I: Would that come in in the morning usually? V: Whenever. You didn‟t know. You‟d get the order from Cpt. Lamb to find a position to bring in re-supplies and call back that position when you get it. And that‟s when I told you the funny story about C4, that‟s what we were doing. We were bringing in resupply. So, I‟d get it every four days, weather permitting. You would be responsible for finding the place where they came in, and you‟d hand out the C-rations. 01:08:05 �V: And, the first, and the other thing was that the mail would come with it. You got 19-, 20year-old guys. They got girlfriends, they‟re writing letters to their mom, or whatever. Now these guys, if they got the letter, they would sit there, and they would act like they were in their living room on a Sunday reading the paper reading their letters, you know. They would forget all about the fact that there was a war going on. So, what I had to do, was when the re-supply came in, I had one of the platoons- one of the squads load up and start out and start going in the direction that I wanted to go. Usually, I would put my platoon sergeant with them and say, “I want you to get to this area and secure this line of march.” So, as soon as stuff was unloaded, you would start giving it out to your squads. C-rations, a third of the c-rations you would just throw away. You would not need all of that stuff, and you had to carry the stuff. And c-rations are heavy. They‟re not like the stuff that they have, whatever they call that. So, a lot of guys would throw stuff away. You had to empty the camp, remember, men, do not leave anything for the enemy. You had to empty your cans and make sure nobody left the empty cans. They would use them as, they would put a grenade in them and leave it out in the pathway, if you‟re using along the trails. Some G.I. would come along and kick it. So, you had that to worry about, guys who wanted to read their mail from home, and you said, “No. We‟re going to up and get the hell out of here, because we just marked our position.” And it wasn‟t until maybe 4:00 that evening when I knew we had made enough, had traveled far enough, close to our night defensive position, that I would sit down, make sure everybody got what they were supposed to get, whether it be enough machine gun M-60 bullets or whatever, and give them time to read the letters. And then, head off again to our night defensive position. 1:10:20 V: So, to me, resupply day every four days was a pain in the ass because you had that human nature, and you wanted to just sit down and say, “Forget the war Lt., let me read my letter from my girlfriend, or from my mom! Let me just experience a few minutes of just enjoying this.” And you‟d say, “No, you can‟t, we‟ve gotta move out. Come on, let‟s go.” So, those were some of the things you had to do to keep people alive. I: One of the things I noticed before we started this interview, you were showing me some clips that the 101st Airborne had had, and there were a lot of guys out in the field very close together. When you‟re actually marching, how far apart are you? V: It depends on terrain. Most of the jungle was pretty damn thick, so if you string out 28 guys, 28-25 guys, all single file through the jungle, they might be, they might be five to ten meters, feet apart. Some places, you would lose sight of the man in front of you in a matter of five meters. So, it‟s important to keep your men together, but not too close together. Now, what, what the hell was going on behind me, I had no clue. That was the squad leaders and the platoon sergeants. I was focused on point man, slack man, me. And, right behind me was a radio with an antenna on it, to say to the enemy, you know something, the guy with the radio was the platoon leader. So, �there were a whole lot of other things, so I expected the squad leaders and platoon sergeant to make sure that guys didn‟t get lost, and that they weren‟t clustered up, but they weren‟t so far away that they couldn‟t see one another. I don‟t know if that answers your question, but it was thick. Now, there were sometimes that the area would become sparse. There was, Agent Orange was being dropped, so there were like splotches of jungle that were dead. So, you would hit that, point man would hit that, bring me up, and what I would do, I would circumvent, send a couple squads this way and a squad this way, and we would circumvent. We wouldn‟t walk through that area. Now, you could see people and it was easier to travel with that. Those were the only times that I remember that we didn‟t go single file. I: How much actual contact did you have with any enemy ground troops as opposed toV: You had, it was whenever they wanted to make contact with you. There were sometimes when we would look back. There was one day we saw a trail watcher. We knew he was calling, we felt he was calling. He was with a radio man, so we felt this guy might be calling league too [?]. It was a rush for me to get to Cpt. Lamb, to get artillery up to that area, and I guess we won because we didn‟t get hit. They, there was one time they hit us, it was in the morning. And we were just beginning to break camp, if you will, heading out in the direction we were supposed to go. And they hit us with full RPGs. And they hit one of the guys really bad. He fell out over the, there was a slight cliff that was there, and the men rallied real well, they had just got back down to their positions to begin to re-fire. We got the kid that was wounded was wounded real bad and we knew we had to get a medevac out real soon. The thing is, they were beginning to figure out our line of march. They were beginning to booby trap all of the old LZs in the area. They were starting to booby trap all of the trails in the area. And, so therefore once… So, there we are and I know there‟s an LZ in about 300m, and we‟re going to have to take the trail. If we‟re going to get this guy out, we‟re going to have to take the trail. 01:15:13 V: So, I just said, you know, “Give me point man.” And this guy instantly stands up with his M16. And, I‟m saying this because I want to tell the people listening the courage, and the service, and how they felt about their fellow soldiers, to do anything to make sure they saved them. So, he has to get up and takes the machine gun, and he starts boppin this thing. [gun noises] Nailing that gun, hitting areas in front of us, and we‟re carrying this kid through the trail and onto the LZ. Medevac comes in, we get him on the medevac. Haven‟t hit a mine yet. And we get back to the perimeter. They had receded. I think they got what they wanted. They were telling us, “We‟re here.” And, that‟s an example of what would happen. Bang, they would just hit you. You would return fire, stand your ground, and try to get your wounded out. That was our life. �01:16:27 I: In the space of about four months, how many times do you think you would have that sort of contact? V: About four or five times we had actual contact. I: Then how common was it to hit booby traps or mines? V: Oh, the last two weeks I was there, it was, monsoons had set in and it slowed everything down. We weren‟t getting in resupply because of the weather. It‟s hard to think about being cold in the jungle, but when its been raining for 24 hours, never stops, not one stitch of clothing is dry. It‟s all wet. And, at night it gets down to 68 degrees up there, up in the mountains, and you are cold. Your guys start getting sick and running fevers. And I would say, in those two weeks, all of us were sick. And they began, you could hear during the day, the other units hitting land mines. You could hear them going off. And, what I‟m going to say is, I didn‟t want to tell this story because I wasn‟t sure about this story, about what happened the last day I was there. But, just about four years ago, I hooked up with the then platoon sergeant, my then platoon sergeant, Chuck Riley. We‟ve been talking, and in fact, we communicate a lot via email. 01:18:11 V: And so, he said to me, “Do you want to know what happened?” I said, “Yeah.” He said, I said… Basically here‟s what I think. We had three units, three platoon units. Cpt Lamb had fallen hard on. So, we had a West Point guy that was platoon leader. He‟s a good man. And First Platoon, that Lt. had stepped on a land mine earlier that morning. So, then it was just him and me, there were two more Lt.‟s left. And then, that lieutenant got into problems, his platoon got into problems, and he hit a land mine. So, they called up to me, my call sign was 2-5, 2-3. They said, “2-3, this is 7-Alpha.” 7 was the company commander, 7-Alpha was the radio man. He said, “2-3, you are now 7. We need you.” And, I said, “I think he‟s telling me that explosion we heard got that lieutenant.” Now, I‟m trying not to, this is two weeks of being out in the rain, trying to get through the jungle, being exhausted. And, I just wasn‟t thinking right. And, I said, “We gotta move, we gotta move.” And, I know Chuck said, “Don‟t go down that trail, Lt.” “We‟ve gotta move closer,” I said. “We gotta hook up, we gotta hook up. We‟re in trouble.” And, bang, I hit the landmine. 01:19:58 �V: And, basically, he came out and put a tourniquet on my leg, and guys in the platoon came out and laid down fire so he could recover me back into the jungle. And then, and then he called in a Medevac. And when the Medevac came, we had two wounded guys on that thing. They picked me up with a jungle penetrator, because they couldn‟t land. There was no place to land. I: So, what is a jungle penetrator? V: A jungle penetrator is a little seat on the end of a metal rope. So, he had to come over and hover and send it down. And Chuck Riley literally had me on his back and carried me and slapped me into the seat. And he was yelling to the radio man to tell them to pull it up. So, I‟m coming up, and there are tracers going through the air. [Laughs] And I‟m going, “You know, I don‟t think this is going to be good.” And, so, the helicopter pilot, and I‟ve been trying to find this guy, begins to move. I‟m dangling from the helicopter. He wants to get out of the area, so he‟s trying to clear me above the trees. And they‟re wheeling me in at the same time. So, they‟re wheeling me in and I‟m going like this, and you know, it‟s completely out of your control. So, I‟m going along a tree top. They‟re wheeling me into the helicopter. And so, the guy pulls me into the helicopter. There were so many casualties that day that the bottom of the helicopter that day was thick with blood, sticky blood. So, I hit the bottom and I‟m going like this in blood. And the guy that pulled me in looks at my leg and looks at me, and says, you‟re yelling over the thing, says, “You‟re okay. Hang in there.” 01:22:10 V: And he turns around, and he‟s working on a guy on the other side of the helicopter. And I‟m going, “Okay? I‟m okay.” And I yell out, and I go, “Do you have any morphine?” He turns around and says, “We ran out this morning.” So, he goes back over, and he‟s working on the guy on the other side. And, I hear the guy who was just talking to me yell, “Oh my god, we lost another one. We lost another one.” And he just leans over the guy. So, I‟m laying there, and I look up, and there‟s this guy sitting above me, and he‟s got a thing on his face, a big old bloody Band-Aid on his face, and his right arm is gone. It‟s, it‟s a stump. And so, I‟m looking up at him, and he‟s looking down at me with one eye, and I reach up and we just grab one-another‟s hand. We were just trying to give one-another courage until we got to the field hospital. When you get to the field hospital, there was so many casualties that day that there was no room in the hospital. They were laying us out in the mud because it was still raining. It was just, this was like a scene from the Civil War. �And so, I‟m out there, and this nurse, these nurses, and may I say, the nurses were fantastic. They were the angels over there. Those nurses probably saw more in a year than most nurses see in a lifetime. And I know many of those nurses from stories I‟ve heard came back with PTSD just as bad as many of us guys did. And there was nobody for them either, to talk to them about the carnage that they saw. They were only 22, 23, 24 year-old lieutenants, the nurses, and they were the angels. 01:24:17 V: So, this nurse kept on coming over to me. She would fade in and out. She would grab me by the hand and say, “Honey, you hang in there, you hear? We‟re going to get you into the operating room. I don‟t know when, but you hang in there and we‟re going to take care of you.” Eventually, they got me into the operating room. And for those who aren‟t looking at me, when I stepped on a land mine, it blew my leg off about six inches below my knee. It‟s called a traumatic amputation. Very common wound sustained by many of us given the landmines that were there lined up. So, that‟s my story with how I survived. So, to those people looking at me, I‟m a miracle. [Laughs] And when I came home, and when I came to after the operation, I thought about all that had happened. And I thought about the men in my platoon and in my company. And I thought about those two pilots that came and got me out of there. And I said to them that I felt that I owed them, that I had to live my life paying those people back. I owed them to live a good life, and I think I have. I: I want to back track to a couple of things here. There are sorts of stereotypes that people have about Vietnam and what happened there, and it doesn‟t often necessarily fit with reality. Sometimes it does. One of them has to do with the drug use. Were you aware of that, or did you see it either in the field or not? 01:26:00 V: [Sighs] When we were in the field, I can honestly say that I was not aware of any of it in my company, okay? Now, on Firebase, I made sure I made rounds to bunkers each night to make sure there was a man in their position and that nothing funny was going on while we were on base. When we were out in the field… So, I‟ll tell you how I know this. If I pulled, say, the first watch from 1012, I would have the guy that took the watch from 2-4 wake me up at 2. And then I would go around to each of our positions. I would make sure that there was somebody on watch. Okay, so that‟s how I can say I didn‟t see it. On the Firebase, I didn‟t see it. Now, we had a stand down, and in the stand down, we came out of the field. You took all of your clothes off and put them in a big pile and they burned them. You got, like, wow, clean, dry clothes to wear. No, wait a minute, you got a shower! A shower! So, after soaping up about four or five times, you got out and you got these clean clothes on, and on that night, it was a tradition �that the officers went out and bought the booze. And the order was, you had steaks. And the order was, you will be drunk by midnight. Now, were there guys that went off and smoked weed? Hey, I don‟t know. I just told my men, “Hey, look. I‟m going to get drunk tonight, and I‟m going to get drunk with you guys. So, if you want to do anything else, it‟s your call, but if you get caught, I‟m really going to get pissed off. Okay?” 01:28:11 V: And that‟s all I said. So, was there anything going on at a big stand down, at the big, big Camp Evans, where you had the perimeter set up and we weren‟t soldiering at that time? There could have been. I‟m sure there was. But that‟s what I know about the drugs. I: Yes, that‟s the idea: what did you see where you were. V: Yes, that is what I know about it. I: And another big thing is racism. There was a lot of tension back home. You get a lot of kids from back home that brought it with them. Did you see signs of that? V: If you were back at a main base, like Camp Evans, there were areas where white men weren‟t supposed to go. There were areas where black men weren‟t supposed to go. Back where the war wasn‟t, there were racial issues. The little, the few days I was at Camp Evans, I did experience some of that, so there was no doubt there were racial issues. Out on the field, it didn‟t exist because of the situation you were in. Now, what was happening back at Camp Evans, I‟m sure there was some racial strife going on. And rightly so. I mean, look. Let‟s put me into, let‟s turn my skin into black, and have me raised, rather than in the neighborhood I was in San Francisco, say I was black and raised in Hunter‟s Point, and I got into the army. And, I couldn‟t get a job when I was young, but the idea of going to college wasn‟t there. And, then when I go to Vietnam, I may have felt the same way, that what am I fighting for. 01:30:10 V: So, I tend to try and put myself into other people‟s shoes. I‟m not blaming anybody who is black or white who had those feelings at that time. Again, if I was in their shoes I might have felt- I probably would have felt the same way. But, they were there. And, so, they still exist today. I don‟t see it. I‟m a retired officer, I go out to McConnell Air Force Base every day, just about. I work out there and I don‟t see a racial problem that existed, but we were being drafted at that time, that‟s in the military now. I went back to Fort Campbell and I visited troops back there, and I didn‟t feel the racial strife that I felt in the service. And that‟s because everybody has to realize, look what was happening in the 60s. I lived through two race riots in San Francisco. There were just, cities were burning. Civil Rights was huge at that time. You had Eldridge Cleaver. You had leaders of the black community that were speaking out about their rights, and, there were people that, I would too if I was black. I would �have said, “Here, you know you‟re right. There should be more…” You had Malcom X. Kane. I can remember listening to all of those people and going to an Eldridge Cleaver talk in San Francisco. And you get the feeling that maybe if I were black, I‟d start feeling this way too. So, that‟s where I come from. And, by the way, we had a foster son who was black. White people are naïve when it comes to the undercurrent of racism that exists in our society. And, I only knew about that by having a black kid in my family and raising him. To see through his eyes and see his experiences, I was able to see racism that existed as an undercurrent in this society. So, that‟s where I‟m at with that. 01:32:28 I: Alright. So, back to the main line of your story. So, initially you were in a field hospital in Vietnam. Were you at Camp Evans initially this period or were at Eagle, or… V: When I originally arrived? I: Yeah. V: When I originally arrived, I was in Da Nang, I flew up to Phu Bai I: Actually, on your way out. V: Oh! On my way out. So I‟m flown from Quang Tri, that was where the field hospital was, to Denae. What they would do was that they would stabilize you at the field hospital for 24 hours. Once stabilized, they would fly you into Da Nang. Da Nang was the main thoroughfare through which you either went to Japan or you went back to the States. When I arrived in Da Nang, they determined that I was stable and there wasn‟t a reason why I couldn‟t make the flight back to the States and start my rehabilitation back in the States. So, I was flown from Da Nang to the Philippines, to Hawaii, and into Travis Air Force Base in California. They flew me out to Fort Simmons Hospital in Denver because my wife had gone back with her mom. She‟s from Dodge City with her parents while I was over there. She came up and joined me in Denver. 01:33:53 V: After about three weeks there, I convinced the powers that be that look, all of my stuff is back in San Francisco. My car is back in San Francisco. Carol was pregnant at the time and needed to start seeing an assistant doctor every week. And she‟s between Dodge City and Denver. We knew nobody, well, we knew somebody in Denver, but all of our belongings are in San Francisco. So, they flew me out, back to Travis and down to the hospital where I rehabilitated and started my master‟s degree and my teaching credentials. Got my teaching credentials, coached football and taught in San Francisco. We moved out to Kansas. I taught high school and I coached football and basketball. And in the summers because of the GI bill I stayed there a year to get my master‟s in biology. So, I got my master‟s. That was 1980. Two years after that, I decided I wanted to go back and get a PhD. So, I was accepted in the University of Texas Southwest Medical School and started there in 1982. I was 35 years-old. I went full time. Four years and �three weeks later, I received my PhD. Worked a post-oc, spent a little bit of a post-oc at University of Texas Southwest Medical School. Great people, I learned so much there. They were fantastic. Got a job up here at Wichita State thirty years ago. I‟m teaching pathophysiology, clinical physiology, I‟m in the Department of Physical Therapy, to the doctor students of physical therapy. I see nursing students, I teach PA students. So, I teach all of the people that would be in all of your health professions here at the College of Health Professions here at Wichita State. Most of my research has been with disabled populations. I focused on kids with developmental disabilities in my past 20, 25 years. And that‟s probably where I‟m going to leave my mark. I‟m still focusing on working with kids with developmental disabilities and intellectual disabilities: down syndrome, autism, those type of kids. 01:36:19 V: I enjoy it, I love it. I get paid for what I do. I love research, I love writing, I love teaching my kids, I love to be around them. I‟m living a dream, that‟s what I‟m doing, and I‟m paying back the guys that saved my life in Vietnam. I: You also mentioned that when you got back you had your share of PTSD and other events… V: Oh, yeah, continued, continued events would happen. As I, out of nowhere, for instance, I flew into Washington DC one time. I would be flown back there sometimes to be an evaluator of research proposals for, like, the VA or NIDRR, research for disabled people. And you would be flown back there, and you would review different proposals, determine and rank the proposals as you would see fit. I knew some people back at George Washington University that I did research with, so I would use the time I went out there to hook up with my colleagues, at George Washington. They were part of my research team and they were part of doing what we were doing. I went to a social event that was put on by GW, George Washington. I don‟t mean to be derogatory or cause any ill feelings, I‟m sure George Washington is a great university. But, you have to remember that academia, in my generation, there was that culture, the anti-war culture, and that anybody that served in Vietnam, there was something wrong with us. 01:38:03 V: And, I was at a party, and this woman that was my age there with her daughter who was about nine, and she said something like, “I heard you were in Vietnam.” And, I think somebody put her up to this. I really do. She was standing next to her mother, and I said, “Yeah.” I told her yeah. And she goes, “Why would you do something as stupid as that?” Now, I know that nine-year-old was put up to say that. And I look at her mother, and her mother was just smiling, like, boy you deserve this. Just stuff like that. �And I said, “Well, this is not my party.” And I said, “Ma‟am, you have a nice evening. Girl, you have a nice evening. Good luck to you and your life.” I then went over to my friends and said, “I‟m leaving.” And left. It‟s stuff like that that would appear every once in a while, out of nowhere. It‟s just like someone came over and just slapped you right across the face. I: Now, today, you are pretty connected and well-involved with other veterans. V: Sure. I: And when did you start making those connections? V: I think most of us… I think Gary Gillian was very active in our Charlie Company organization said it the best way I know how. He said, “You know, for twenty years, we buried it. And for the next ten, we ran away from it. And finally, somewhere around 2000, we said, „Enough of this, we are getting too old. We gotta start reaching out.‟” And that‟s where we started reaching out. So, I‟m at the commissary one day. And I, every once in a while, I get a 101st Airborne hat and I‟d be wearing it cocked, and I‟d be walking around with it. And, I go and work out, just about every afternoon, and after I work out, I go to the commissary. Carol Sue always has a little list that I have to pick up, so I pick up a list of groceries and I head home. 01:40:04 V: So, one of the guys over there, one of the clerks, was a Vietnam veteran, and he said, “You worked with the 101st.” And I said, “Yeah.” And he said, “You gotta meet somebody. You gotta meet somebody.” I said, “Sure, John. Yeah.” And he said, “I know somebody from the 101st.” And so, I‟m out there a couple of weeks later, and John comes up to me and he said, “Ken, don‟t go anywhere.” “Oh, okay.” A guy comes over, says, “John told me you were in 101st.” I said, “Yeah.” And he goes, “So, who were you with?” Pft, like you‟re going to know who I was with. I said, “I was with 2nd of 506.” He said, “Oh, you were with Currahees.” �I mean, who would know that. I: Yes, it‟s a nickname of the Battalion. V: Yes, it‟s a nickname of the Battalion. So, I go, “Yeah.” Then he goes, “What company were you with?” I said, “Charlie Company?” He goes, “I was with Delta.” I said, “For real?” He said, “Yeah, I was with Delta.” So, I go, “Okay.” And he hands me the card and says, “Look, if you‟re interested in getting back with your crew, just send me an email,” and said, “I will hook you up.” I‟m going, right. So, I said, “I‟ll take the card.” And I put it in my pocket. “Well, it was nice meeting you.” And he‟s getting the feeling, you know, that I‟m kind of disking him. So, I‟m walking out and he says, “Oh, by the way, Currahee.” And that just stopped with in my tracks, because I hadn‟t heard anybody say that, that Currahee. I turned around and looked at him, and he said, “Think about it.” 01:42:04 V: So, I go back to the car, get in the car and go back home. And, I take the card and I have it on my desk at home, and I put it there like that. And I‟m working on the thing, and I‟m looking at it like, do I? Do I open this door? I think I know what happened while I was over there. But, does my platoon really want to talk to me? I mean, I left them in a mess. Do they have ill-feelings and hard feelings towards me? How am I going to be greeted if I see these guys? So, Carol comes by and she looks over my shoulder and asks, “What‟s that?” And I tell her, and I go, “Babe, I don‟t know whether to open that door.” She goes, “You have no choice. You‟re opening this door.” And I said, “Yes, ma‟am.” So, I email him, and I get hooked up with Charlie Company, and I‟ve been with them ever since. So, it was just a chance meeting and a lot of the guys that we try to get to the reunions, you‟re talking about guys that are in their late sixties, Jim. They‟re afraid, like I was. What are the people going to think of me? �And you say, “Look, when you come, you will have closure like you‟ve never had closure before. You will be with people who understand you.” And to each man that has come back from the first visit, it has been that way. So, it has been, for all of us who put up with all of these decades of hiding from it, of not wanting to talk about it, we finally are stepping forward and saying, “Look at us. We served our country. We fought for our country. Enough of this feeling towards us. Respect us.” 01:44:04 V: And, I think after two generations of the strife that happened, like the kids that I teach now, they don‟t know about Vietnam. And they look at me and go, “You served in combat? Holy cow. Wow!” You know, I‟m put up on a pedestal by the generation that I teach. That‟s what, after two generations, we got away from that. Am I still pissed off at my generation? Big time, okay, big time, but you have to put it besides yourself. And I really hope that the new PBS that is coming out on Vietnam, and from what I‟ve read, they do a pretty good job. I: I‟ve actually seen parts of it and he does a very good job at making it very balanced with all of the different perspectives and giving people the time to talk. There are a lot of asides and he does not pull a lot of punches. V: Good, good. I trust from his previous productions that he‟ll do a good job. I: Now, if you were to put together sort of a balance sheet of how the military experience as a whole has affected you as a whole and include the training and so forth as well as Vietnam, what stands out for you? How did all of that affect you, other than losing part of your leg? V: I, again, I was raised surrounded by people who served in World War II, and I read a lot of history when I was a kid. Catholic upbringing, you read a lot, and you read a lot of history. I was aware of the things that happen in our history to give us the freedom that we have. And, I always wondered, what was it like on D-Day? What were those guys thinking about when the front of that landing barge went down, and they had to walk out on that beach? What was it like for the Marines in the Philippines to have the front of that barge go down and to wade out into those waters, not knowing what you were going to hit? 01:46:12 V: Well, I found the answer to that, when you come in on a CA and you‟re lead ship on what I described to you that first time I went into. Things are blowing up all around you, and you‟re damned scared, and you‟re hoping that you don‟t do the wrong thing, and you‟re hoping no one‟s there and no one is going to shoot you. I found out what that was like, and in doing that, I became a part of that long grey line of those people that served this country, that fought for what the Constitution says. I feel really good about that. I feel like I deserved, I earned my right to be an American serving in Vietnam. That has been with me all my life. �So, to me, it made me earn what I was given. It made me realize the sacrifice and the pain people have suffered for what we stand for. I realize how easy it is back here, that you live in a survival mode, that when things are pretty tight or bad, I‟m the guy who usually tells a joke, and says, “You know guys, let me tell ya, it could be really, really worse. So, let‟s kick back and say, this is the situation and solve the problem.” So, it has allowed me to be in a leadership position and say, and mean it, “Guys, you don‟t know how bad it can get. This is nothing. Let‟s just put our heads together and figure out how to get this solved.” 01:48:05 V: I think it just makes you feel like you‟ve earned it, that you‟ve been able to help people get through tough situations in life, like let‟s take it one step at a time, and that you‟ve been a good mentor, and a good American, being that, when the time comes for me to die, I‟m going to leave it in a better shape than I found it with the people I associate and the students I associated with and helped. I feel pretty damned good being 70 years-old and being who I am now, so I think it‟s made me. And, I go through pain and discomfort every day of my life because of my leg, but that gave me more empathy to people who are disabled, who are suffering. And, I know how important it is to try to help them. So, that‟s what it‟s given me. I: Alright, well, thanks for a remarkable story. Thank you very much for taking your time to share it today. V: It‟s been my pleasure, Jim. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_PitettiK2146V Title A name given to the resource Pitetti, Kenneth (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-07-21 Description An account of the resource Kenneth Pitetti, was born in1946 in San Francisco, California, where he was raised. He enlisted in the ROTC program at the University of San Francisco. He signed up for infantry in the Army. He received Infantry Officer Basic Training at Fort Benning. In the fall of 1969, he was assigned to the 24th Division at Fort Riley, Kansas, which, within his last two weeks of the assignment, became the 1st Division. He then participated in jungle training in Panama before being sent to Vietnam in August of 1970. He was assigned to C Company, 2nd Battalion, 506th Regiment, 101st Airborne Division. He spent most of his time in the field leading platoon-size patrols in the mountains and jungles in the northern part of South Vietnam. Four months into his service in Vietnam, Ken Pitetti stepped on a land mine and lost his leg just under his knee in a traumatic amputation. He was medically evacuated to a field hospital, where they performed surgery. He was sent back to the United States to recover. After his return to the United States, he faced the negative treatment and negative stigmatization that many veterans of Vietnam felt. Still, he worked to get his PhD and now is a professor at Wichita State. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Pitetti, Kenneth Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7e33065f767e58090fe05759ad3329ec.m4v a0f5bc19458a8091bee5e7220d884bf2 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2de6982eddddb449a646368fc7e7f0b4.pdf e72d272cf3e5b53fda6b4866e4df2467 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Veteran: Gilford Veenstra Interviewer: James Smither Transcribed by Gabrielle Angel Interview length: 59:00 0:00:00.2 I: We're talking today with Gil Veenstra of Grand Rapids Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay, Gil, start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and when were you born? V: I was born August 1, 1926 in Grand Rapids. My mother was a school teacher. My dad was an auto mechanic. I: Okay, and did you grow up in Grand Rapids? V: Yes. I: Okay. Now, were your parents able to keep their jobs during the Depression? V: No, they had a hard time like a lot of the folks. They lost their nice, big house. He lost his business. He's a new car dealer and he served in the Army at the tail end of World War I as a motorcycle mechanic. I grew up on a farm with five boys and two girls. There was a role for that many kids as adults. Anyway, we worked for my dad when I got to be twelve, fourteen. Dad started me young. He rejuvenated his business but he never purchased a building. He was always shy of the same thing would happen as happened in the Depression. We went through hard times. I remember we were making house payments of twenty-seven dollars a month to the lady just down the street from where we lived. They still sent me to a Christian school. 00:02:06.1 V: I had one sister, she developed polio when she was about twelve, had her paralyzed from the waist down. She took most of my parents' energy and funds. At Mary Free Bed, she got all kinds of treatment. When she was old enough and I had a garage I fixed the car with hand controls so she could drive because my dad had passed away in 1950. I: Well that's getting a little bit ahead of ourselves in the story here. Let's go back into the 1930s. Your family had a hard time but you manage to kind of still make it through. You were, they were able to send you the Christian schools. Now, do you remember how you heard about Pearl Harbor? �V: On the radio on a cruise ship. We had a three-ship convoy headed out of Frisco. Actually, it was Treasure Island. And we went to Hawaii; that was our first stop, and we got and we couldn't get off of the ships. I: Back in in 1941 when the Pearl Harbor attack happened you heard about it on the radio. Now did you think at the time that the war would be over before you were going to get into it or do you not think about it? V: You know, as- as a young person there was a whole bunch of us guys in the senior class at Christian High went out and enlisted together. Just get in there and get it over with. We had that attitude and that feeling: do what we can. 00:04:04.1 I: And that's 1944, so that's several years down the line, but as you were going through school did you just always assume that sooner or later you were going to have to go? V: I don't think I gave it any thought. I: But, now when you enlisted did you choose which branch of the service to go into? V: I did. I: What did you choose? V: I chose the Navy. I: And why did you choose the Navy? V: You know, that's a pretty good question. Because my dad was Army, I didn't have any relation in the Navy. It was kind of our camaraderie in our senior class in high school that we were gonna enlist in the Navy when we graduated, so a bunch of us we came together. I: So, you're saying some of the other guys had a preference and you just went with them? V: Yeah, more or less I: Alright, so where did they send you now for training? V: At Great Lakes. I: Okay. And this is the summer of 1944 now? V: Correct. I: Alright, Great Lakes to the north of Chicago. What did the basic training consist of? V: We had firefighters, aircraft identification, machine shop, a bit of electrical shop. They exposed us to quite a wide field that we could choose from. I didn't expect that was going to happen, what are you good at? �I went into the basic engineering class right there at Great Lakes. They were committed I go to diesel school. 00:06:15.9 I: While you were still at Great Lakes, how much emphasis did they put on discipline and following orders? V: Boot camp is strict. We kept the barracks clean. Kept yourself clean. Did your laundry. Learn to tie knots. Everything had to be rolled and square knotted. We had a Chief who was in our company that owned a company that made band instruments. He was a real strict one for marching. A nice guy, sharp, but you better get your cadences right and stay with him. I: Now, how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to that kind of military life? V: Very easy. I: Why was that? V: I had some friends in my company. Friends that started with “V”. For instance, Elmer Veen. I'm Veenstra, he's Veen. If he'd wash down here, I'll wash up the vault. It was a few of the guys from our class and just seemed like we fit right in. I: Alright, how long did basic training last? V: Seven weeks and four days for boot camp. 00:07:57.5 I: Okay, and then what they do with you after that? V: I went into engineering, basic engineering. And that required a variety of exposure which determined that, using their judgment and my grades and whatnot, I better stay in a more technical field: diesel. I think in those days there were the thoughts of invading Japan. I'm sure of it. They were looking for good diesel mechanics for the landing craft, LCMs, and I enjoyed working on that GM 671, the same engine that powered city buses early in the 40s and 50s. I: Did you do your diesel training at Great Lakes or did they send you somewhere else? V: I eventually ended up in diesel school in Richmond, Virginia for diesel and advanced diesel. And, was that just learning the engines and how they work and how to a fix them. The instructor said, "How many of you guys have experience? My dad had a garage. I worked with my dad. Another guy says, "My dad was a service manager up in Minnesota for a Ford dealer." Another kid says, "I come out of Pennsylvania I'm a farm boy and he said we can fix anything." So, it was the three of us and we monitored the class. First of all, they did a time study of a tear down with the three of us working together. And then, they'd get the flunkies in and then time them. The navy's way isn't always the right way but it works, and I enjoyed it. �00:10:21.2 I: So, you were already helping do the training while you were still in training? V: Yeah, I did a teardown of a 671 and put her back together. Pressed a button, [motor noise] she’ll run. I: Now, did you get a chance while you are in the diesel school to actually ride in any of the landing craft, or were you just working on the engines themselves? V: The power units where there was an engine they had a little joules four-cylinder engines I ran the pump for a generator and the auxiliary stuff on that warship powered by diesel. I: But, at this stage you're not actually on any boats or ships. V: No, we were in the shop. I: While you were there in Richmond did you get to go off the base at all or did you just stay there? V: I think we were free to go on Friday night. We went up to this Mark Wade, his name was, he lived in Chatham, Pennsylvania just across the- a short distance from Baltimore, Maryland. We went there several times, stayed with Mark. The same three of us we were together on those kinds of settings, home cookin', sleep in a good bed. The neighborhood girls that would come over and just play games. We were just kids, nineteen eighteen, eighteen by that I'm sure. Ah. 00:12:23.4 V: Friday night they also would bring in girls, bus-loads of girls from Richmond, and they had what do you call a guy who plays a record? I: Well, a disc jockey. V: Yeah, a that's it. And they would have a dance. As a Christian Reform young man, we didn't believe in dances. Movies were, movies were not good either. I'll tell you a little story? I was sitting down. It was held in the gym. I was sittin' on the lower tier in the gym, just watching the goings on, and a young lady came up to me and she said, "Why aren't you dancing?" I said, "I don't know how." She said, "Do ya wanna learn?" I said, "Not in front of all these people." I said, "Maybe you and I could sneak behind the bleachers and you could give me some pointers." It happened, and she was my buddy for a few weeks. A Jamaican lady, Rita McCormy was her name. I don't know what nationality she was, but she was not Dutch. I'll tell you what. She taught me a few steps. It was interesting. �00:13:56.9 I: Did you go into the city of Richmond at all or just - ? V: We went to a movie now and then on our weekends if we didn't go up to Mark Wade's house. I: Asking in part because you're in the South and the South was segregated in those days and Grand Rapids wasn't. Did you notice any of the segregation or the Jim Crow, or did that not register with you? V: I never got involved with anything about segregation. I: Did you see things like whites-only bathrooms or anything like that? V: No, I really don't remember it. I: That's fascinating just to find out. Sometimes you notice sometimes you don't. But really a lot of your time off base was spent up in Pennsylvania, which is going back north again. Okay, alright, how long did you spend in Richmond? V: Well, diesel school was six weeks and four weeks I think, so, two and a half months. But I didn't finish up because I developed the German measles. Then my class graduated, so I think some of them got an advancement of rate. I would have qualified; I was right up on top of my class. Now I'm stuck in sick bay. And corpsmen don't know kids' maladies. You know when you've been a parent and you have eight kids like my wife and I have you go through those whooping coughs and tonsillitis and on and on and on. I was left all by myself and until the Lieutenant said, "Well, what are we going to do with ya?" I said, "Get me outta here." I said, like, "I want a job. I want to work. I want to be responsible for something." 00:16:11.1 V:And they sent me to California. I boarded a ship headed to the Commander of the Western Sea Frontier. I said, "Well, where's the Western Sea Frontier?" Nobody seems to know. You can't go west forever. We were on a troop ship. We had a true destroyer escort as well for our protection. They said the Japs had some submarines in that area. It took 28 days to get to the Philippines to my base at Guiuan, Samar where I ended up. Turned around coming home was only 18 days. It was a slow ride out there and a quicker ride home. I: When you went out, you would have had to zigzag and change course. V: True, we did a lot of that. I: Now, what was the weather like on the trip out? �V: On the way out? I: Yeah. V: It was calm. The ocean was smooth. We played cards every day. The guys taught me how to play bridge. There was lots of little fish, flying fish in the wake of the boat. Ship. It was just a just a nice cruise. It was smooth. Coming home, it was just the opposite. It was rough, it was dark, food was lousy. It wasn't as nice coming, home and there should have been a lot of joy. We were going home! We did our part. Anyway. 00:18:08.4 I: So, when did you go out to the Philippines? Are we still in '44 have we made it to '45 now? V: I get to the Philippines early in '45 like April, I think. They were still driving on the wrong side of the road, I know that. In the Philippines, that changed in June, I think, and I hadn't been in the Philippines very long before they put me on the right side of the road. I: So, when you went out to the Philippines initially you're on the islands of Samar. Okay, so what is your job initially? V: Initially, guard duty. I think they stopped at they started at the top of the alphabet from Z down. I was 18 -year-old kid that they strapped a 45 automatic on my belt. I had never had one in my hand before and I was a guard. And they said, "After dark, eight to midnight." The place was fenced in, but you had to walk from post to post. I mean you had your area to cover. There was something on the other side of the fence. I didn't find out what it was, but it scared the willies out of me. It made quite a racket and I seen it and didn't know what to do with it. But, pretty soon it quieted down I was relieved of that job. I worked in the chow hall. I officially sliced bread for about 2000 guys with a hand-slicer. I worked in the ammunition belt throwing cartons of boxes of, actually of 30 and 50 caliber machinegun bullets. 00:20:17.5 V: I said to whoever I can find out in charge, "Give me something I'm qualified for. I don't need to work in the chow hall." "Well, he said, "do you want to go to the loader pull?" I said "No, I'll get that when I get back home." "How about boats? Oh, we have room in small boats for you." So, we had LCM landing crafts and I think a boat was a 45-foot yacht. We had a what they call a RERE boat, a few black cats, a float boat, float plane. I forget the initials for that. But when you �armed that when you are out on the water, you were on a boat that had big cushions around the edge so if you got close to it you wouldn't puncture the fuselage, but it’s like a plane. There are numerous boats. Aircraft carriers, they call them, Jeep carriers, they couldn't fly a plane very big off of them. They would anchor out off our base while the pontoon barge would hook onto a plane drop a plane over the side onto our pontoon barge and we'd run it into the shore. 00:21:57.9 V: Right adjacent to our navy base was a B 24 Bomber Army base. We brought a lot of planes into there. That was when the war was, Japan was still putting up some resistance. Ah, Germany had surrendered when we were on the troopship going overseas. So I ended up in a boat-pool like that. I was assigned an LCM, a picket boat, and crewmen on pontoon barge. Pontoon barges were, most of them had twin power units. The pontoons were about 6x6 squared cubes, held together with iron girders, 9x12, that's nine by six plus the in between them. I think, I caught a few planes on there, especially the ones where the wings folded, but I didn't do a whole lot of that mechanical work. But I did, I got a nice story. We'll get to it about my experiences as a mechanic, unless you want to hear it right now? I: Well was this while you were still on Samar? Is this while you were still on Samar with the small boat unit or does that come later? V: I'm still on Samar. I: Yeah, go ahead. V: Okay. One day, the Chief, head of the boat load team, came in. His personal sea boat was knocking a horrible knock and his consensus of opinion was among the highly rated guys, including the Chief first class, second class, third class war mechs, was we can't fix that. That thing's junk. The main bearing is wore out of it. 00:24:16.0 V:I happened to come in off a run and I, like an inquisitive young guy, I'm listening to this conversation and and I listened to that knock, and I said, "That's not a main bearing knock." I said to the Chief, "The last job I helped my dad with in the garage, Bert Hammer had brought in an old dump truck that knocked just like your boat and we tore it down and it had a bad flywheel, a loose flywheel, and we went. to the junkyard and got a flywheel for it and we fixed it." As soon as I said this, he was as happy as happy could be. Okay, now we're in the Philippines and here comes the head man's boat and it's knocking and I said to him, "That's not a main bearing knock." I said, "I think you got a loose fly wheel." "What's your name?" he says so I told him. He says, "What's your rank?" And I says, "Fireman." �He hesitated and then said, "Can you fix that knock?" I said, "Yes, sir. It. was the same job as the last job I did helping my dad before I went on active duty.” And, the Chief was so happy. It took me a couple days. I had to round up the parts I needed, the tools and whatnot. 00:25:53.9 V: And, okay. The war's over. They are startin' to get rid of stuff: planes that they would have sal- that they'd salvaged the motor out of them, or vehicle, a jeep maybe, some boats, some small planes, a lot of bombs. The air guys would bring the bombs down to our base to our jetty, and we had a crane out on the end that that took them. Just like at the airport where they got your carts loaded with your suitcases, these old carts were loaded with bombs. We would load them onto the barge and take them out into deep water, push everything off the side. On this particular day, I had to be on duty from 8:00 at night until midnight, might even have been 4:00 in the afternoon. I said to the Chief, he and I were buddies by then, I had fixed his boat, his engine, I said, "Chief do you care if I- may I take a couple of hours off this afternoon and catch up on my correspondence?" He says, "That's fine. You be back here by 4:00." So I went to chow hall first went to my tent, we lived in tents,. I hadn't been there very long. The bomb disposal guys were doing their job. All of the big bombs were supposed to have been diffused. One or two of them were not. I'm sittin' in my shack, in my tent, and I hear this horrendous explosion then a second explosion, and I rounded up a jeep and I was headed for the boat pools. I gotta find out what happened. I know what's happened. Somebody didn't defuse a bomb or the crane dropped it. I didn't know what, but I couldn't get anywhere near it. The shore patrol got in right away and said, "You can't go it's still too dangerous; there may be more explosions." 00:28:32.1 V: There I am, without a job again, without a real job. The boat pool was gone. Thirty- five guys, some were from the Air Corps, and the bomb disposal, some were guys that were on duty, regular duty at the boat pool to take care of it, and some were the Filipino fishermen that loved to fish off of in the [unknown word, sounds like Rossetti] and I heard them say, I'm not sure of that number, but it was in the area of 35, were killed. I: What about men from your own unit? Did you lose any of the men from your- did you lose any of the men that you worked with? �V: Yeah. I was the only one. They put out a paper on the chow hall bulletin board. Sign boat pool boat pool personnel, sign this thing, a notification that your name and what your job was at the boat pool. I was the only one signed in, and a couple days later shore patrol came to my tent. I didn't know what to do, to be real honest with you. I went to my tent and, I'm sure of it, tearful, shocked. You know, my friends were gone. 00:30:06.7 V: And shore patrol says, "Let me see your dog tags. Come with me you'll go see the exec.” He says, "Veenstra where've you been? Shacked up with one of your girlfriends up there in the hills?" I says, "No, sir, I don't do that." He just was goofing with me a little bit. Giving me a hard time, I think. And he tried to account for my time and I said, "I had been right in my tent I signed the roster sheet at the chow hall every time it was posted. And I didn't know where to go and I didn't know what to do my job was gone, and my buddies." Later they said to go off to see Commander Grant from Allston, Massachusetts. He was the Lieutenant Commander I had chauffeured around the water. He came to me and he said, "How would you like to go up to Sangley Point to be up in Manila? They got some boats but they haven't got the mechanics. Would you like to go up there?" I said, "It's better than sitting here in my tent wondering what happened." Nobody knew. If they knew they didn't tell anybody, the higher-ups. There had to have been an accident somewhere. He said, "Tomorrow morning, have your sea bag packs. I'll be back to pick you up and take you to the airstrip." 00:31:52.9 V: Which he did, put me on a 646 normally used for paratroopers. The ones with the seats down the sides. And the pilot said, "Veenstra, come on up front." He says, “You're my only guy going for a ride today." And he and the copilot and I, right up in that front cabin. He said, "There's your base right down there." That was after we had taken off. And, he pointed out some of the scenery. It wasn't very long and we were at Sangley Point. You had to settle on a airstrip, you know the metal, that interlocking I: PSP V: Yeah the stuff. First there was just kind of screamed a little bit. "Ah," he said, "Here's your home for a little while." �Another shore patrol let me advance up. He said, "Veenstra, let me see your dog tags." He wanted to make sure. He said, "I'll take you to your..." We lived in classic huts, that was fun. A step upward from a tent. And, yeah. And I got acquainted with the guys. I had, I was third class by then. Right after I fixed the Chief's boat he said, "You're a fireman? I'll see to that." Within two weeks, I had my first stripe. I was kind of proud of that. 00:33:39.4 V: My son, John, worked for me in my shop, and he joined the Navy also. He served on an aircraft carrier the Oriskany in Vietnam. He was in electronics. After he had 30 months in the navy, he wrote me a letter and said, "Dad do you have room for me in the garage?" I had, by that time, three mechanics and then John joined me. My second son was Mike. He went to JCS for a while, then he went up to Ferris State College the automotive school, and then he came to work for me. My third son tried it for a year, decided he wasn't a mechanic and he didn't like being cooped up in the shop. He liked outdoor work. I encouraged him for sticking around for a little bit. I: Was there a point to make about your oldest son that was connected to your story or did you just kind of continue on? V: Well, he, you he said, "The truth is, Dad was in the Navy and, and if it was good for Dad, it will be good for me." So, he enlisted, and he was in the reserve. They had a place on Lower Monroe here in Grand Rapids. Once a week, they would have their meetings and that went on for a while. Until he, it was his choice to go on active duty, or I forget what the second choice was, but anyway he chose to, he chose to go active and he went to school for the technical job he had and he was assigned to this aircraft carrier. It was like a, I pictured it as an electronically controlled, repetitious-firing gun, antiaircraft and he never said much about it. At least we'd spend a day together on this Veterans flight to Washington, D.C. He pushed me in a wheelchair You know I'll be 91 pretty quick. They wouldn't let me walk. In fact, all of the Vets were in wheelchairs. 00:36:31.4 I: Yes, they do that. V: John was my cohort. He was right with me through all the looking at at Philippines, all of the Memorials cast in stone in Vietnam. John was in the Navy in Vietnam times for his carrier. He was interested in seeing those memories, and it was interesting. We went to to the big cemetery the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. Interesting to watch the- the so-called guards, the strictness of the way they functioned. It was blessing to me just so see those guys, you know? They were sharp, sharply dressed, every motion was sharp. I got as much of a �kick watching those guys as I did some of the sights. We had... I have a granddaughter that married an Air Force guy and he was a Captain when she met him in Texas, and he went 20 years in the Air Force. He met us and is stationed in Washington. Now, he's discharged from the Air Force, so he's got the same job as a civilian. He was there with, I mean, five kids and he was just as excited as John and I were that he could show his grandpa that. 00:38:40.1 I: Let's go back here to your own stories, and you've gone on now to your second assignment. That's the one at Manila Bay, and what were you doing there? V: Maintenance on boats, a couple of LCMs, picket boats, just general maintenance to make sure gas levels the LCMs all go into freshwater cooled by the salt water had zinc plugs we had to change every so often that took some kind of static out of the water or something. Electrolytic action, I think it's called. And it was a real pleasure to see my grandson Eric "Butterball." He left the service as a Lieutenant Commander. He was up for Commander if he would have signed over for another tour but with five kids, he said, "I'm going to be a dad. Get a real job." [Laughs]. 00:40:03.6 I: Can I go back into your story proper? Now, when you're in the Philippines whether in Samar or now in outside of Manila how much did you see of the civilian population? V: We would get some of these ladies who did our laundry. They'd use stone. They'd beat your clothes up with stone, big rocks, and would wade out rinse them in the clear water dry them and fold them up nice. There were Jap- there were Japanese up in the mountains in oh, it was at Guiuan. And they would come in in the morning and they would have Japanese skulls hanging off their- they didn't have much on but their belt hold those skulls that they had taken care of. I: There were Filipinos that were hunting the Japanese up in the hills? V: They hunted, and for each skull, they were fed and fed well, the same food that we ate. They were tough little guys. No shoes, calloused feet, big feet considering they were little guys. Most of them will come up almost up to your shoulder. I would hate to tangle with those guys. They were tough. The only thing they had for offensive duty was a bow that curved. They didn't have guns. They did well with what they had to work with. 00:42:06.1 V: They would come down and you said, "Do I have anything to do with them?" The times that I spent in the chow hall, I would slice the bread. There was one time that I'd get to see them, but we couldn't talk to them, so if they got in your way one word I remember was iwas. “You know, get out of my way,” I'd say to all of them when I'm coming in with a boat and they're out there fishing with a spear-gun. �But, they're nice people. To top it all off, there was a Filipino, born in the Philippines went to school there, went to some seminaries, wanted further education, came to the US, I think he wanted a wife, too. He found a wife. Ah, he got his education, he's working on a PhD now. He's going back to the Philippines and he's going to be in charge of the seminary there. Brian Najapfor N A J A P F O R, the nicest guy. He's been our pastor in Dunton our URC church for about 4 years while he's deciding where God's going to lead him next. So, he's going to seminary and he's working on his Doctorate. I figure it will take him a year because he has a lot of the preliminary stuff out of the way already. He was a guildsman in the Philippines and now he is as a pastor from the Philippines. 00:44:05.7 I: Alright, and did you go into Manila at all? V: I wanted to bring officers from Sangley Point across the bay. It was a terrible ride. There were so many sunken ships in Manila Bay, and some of them had truck lights. They're sitting on the bottom, they must have had a generator. Some of them had lights on, but most of them didn't, and when fog came in, you couldn't see those lights and you would have to feel almost have to feel our way through. We had spotlights but the spotlight went about as far as the bow of your boat, your picket boat. The fog was pretty thick. A few officers were discussing to us that they had a date and we couldn't get them there on time because we had to take our time. One guy up on the bow to direct the coxswain by sound, you can hear the waves come up against the hull or all of the sudden you'll see a shape in front of you. Give the coxswain the directions. But, we always made it, didn't always make it on time I did not- I should say I didn't get into Manila. I forget what the summer capital of the Philippines is . I: Baguio. 00:45:50.8 V: I had a ten-day R&R and we took a truck, and went up to Baguio for ten days for the relaxation and what not, and back down the mountain back to Sangley Point. But, through Manila on the way up but I didn't see much. I: Did you see much evidence that there had been a war there, did you see damaged things? Or not that you noticed? V: Not that I noticed, that is a good term. I: So, what was Baguio like? V: What's that? I: What was Baguio like? V: Baguio? �I: Yes. V: They had a golf course but the green was sand after one group went off the green, they would roll it, rake it, pack it down, so your ball didn't roll. So, it's almost like a chip-shot. But, the food was good and you'd get a bath every night. 10 days that went awful fast. I: Now. Alright, were you stationed anywhere else in the Philippines or you had Sumar, then you were at Sangley Point. Did you go anyplace else or did you finish your time there? V: I finished my time at Sangley Point except for a short time. North of Manila, there's an out- a home-going dock where we picked up another boat there, so I spent a little bit of time there, but I don't forget what the name of the town is. I took another troop ship back home. Otherwise basically it was Samar, Guiuan. 00:47:45.5 V: I had thirty days where it was, I was it was temporary duty. Running liberty parties into town. I spent 30 days at Tacloban, Leyte attached to a repair ship. We were his Captain's barge. When they repaired what they had to repair, we would take it out to the ship that was out on the bay some place, or bring it in to Tacloban, so I did get to see a bit of that. I was in Tacloban when Japan surrendered. That was not a safe place to be. When guys want to get rid of their ammunition, I'm sure they pointed her up. That was the Fourth of July celebration. They were all firecrackers. I: What comes up comes down again. V: Yeah. That was noisy. I said to my coxswain on my picket boat, his name was Pinky, nice guy I said "Dave, I want to get home. I want to go back to the boat and get out of here. I think it's more dangerous here than a lot of those places have been." But, I'd been there. That was a good experience being my career and being the taxi for the repair ship they treated us so well everywhere else. 00:49:36.3 I: Were you at Cebu City? Did you see something of Cebu? V: Cebu? I: Cebu. V: Yeah. That's where all this I've listed was done, back in about, you know, '45 '46. I: So, when do you actually leave the Philippines? V: I don't remember the date. But it was in the spring of '46. �Okay, I got home, and I went to summer school at Calvin. Took a class in psychology from a professor that was going to retire. This was going to be his last hurrah. My wife's brother Andy had been in the Marines, he said, "Gil, if we are going to take any course we want to take this course with this psychiatrist professor." And, we did. One summer school. I really wanted to Calvin because I wanted to play baseball, which I did. But, the baseball coach left quite a bit to be desired, but I put my time in. I played left field. I could hit it as good as anybody. But, my wife said, "I think it's time we get married." I'd been working for my dad part-time and I'd gone steady with Jane as juniors in high school and then one day she said, "Gil, you're the only boy I've ever dated." I said, "Well, maybe you couldn't do any better." [chuckles] I said, "Gotta start at the top." [chuckles] And she said, "I would like to not go steady. I'd like to experience other boys." And I said, "That's probably a good thing to do. I know I'm not the only good guy around." 00:51:55.2 V: And then I started dating someone else. Ruth VandeKoppel. A nice, little girl Very intelligent, dad was a machinist. But she lived on the West side. Anyways, my best buddy, Bob Nott, and I used to double date. And Luke Nettle also. The three of us used to all go. I had a '31 Chrysler. And Bob knew Ruth quite well. He called me one day and he said, "Gill, I hear you're back with Jane again." I said, "Yeah, how'd you hear that?" He says, "Well, you know, the grape vine around here." He said, "Would you care if I date Ruth?" I said, "Go for it. You know her. We've double-dated so many times. You know her as good as your own girlfriend." And so, he married her. And I married Jane. I: Now, was that dating going on when you were in college or was that back when you were in high school? V: After college. After college, okay. I just went one year in that summer school and my dad wasn't real well and it wasn't very long, long we, I was a quick learner, having been to diesel school, I had some on the job training in the Navy experience. We reached a buy-sell agreement. He wanted to retire, and I would take over. �He lived a month and eight days from that point. He was gone. He never reached 60. He passed away before. 00:53:53.7 V: So, there I was, the youngest graduate in Grand Rapids. Probably the gutsiest one too. We'd go to the clinic unit, the job stores, part stores. I'd go to clinics on- on alternators, generators and starters I went to General Motors' training center in Detroit on automatic transmission. And, every clinic I could get to I would go to, and we had our motor header, our General Motor books, big thick things. Ah, one of my good friends in the business. I went to him one day, I was stuck. He said, "Gil, did you read the General Motor Magazine Board Book?" I said, "No." He said, "Read that book first and if you're still stuck, then you come back to me." I never went back. Elmo was his name. He did a lot of aircraft engine repair for our air strip at Kent County. That was still on Madison and Thirty-Sixth. I: So, how long did you run the garage? V: How long? I did it 30-some years, then my two boys, Mike and John, and I had three other guys. One of them came to me one day and he said, Marlin Dryer, he said, "Gil you've trained, I think I'm ready to have my own shop, but I won't infringe on your business. I'm going to establish a shop in Grandville." And so, Marlin went there. Jack and Dick stayed with me for eighteen years. And they stayed with my sons another eighteen. They were in the garage longer than I was. But, I had about thirty-some years. And I had good mechanics. We did a lot of work for the doctors in Blodgett. That was when my shop was on East Benjamin and East Fulton. 00:56:36.4 V: I played a lot of ball. Had a lot of surgeries. I've got metal knees, both of them, a metal hip, both shoulders have been operated on. I've got to see the surgeons at Blodgett frequently One of them was named Jerry Green. He's an ortho-pod and I had to get in to see him, and he had his book on him and he was reading it while he was standing there, and he started to laugh. He said, "Gil, all your problems start on Monday He said, "I wouldn't get out of bed on Monday if I was you." [Both laugh.] That's the doctor. He's gone more into it now. I: Alright. �V: He was a character, that guy. 00:57:34.1 I: Okay, just going to wind things up here. When you look back in time spent in the Navy, how do you think that affected you or maybe what you learn from it? V: To be independent. Not be afraid to tackle an assignment. I make friends easy. I'm just a common guy. We had eight children, so I'm a family man. I'm a fisherman, a hunter. My wife loves the fish. We own a place in Florida in Meadows Island for quite a few years. She'd be fishing the surf with me 5:30 morning. Every day but Sunday, catching as many fish as anybody on the beach. Of course, I'd bait her up, cast her out and hand her the pole. She made friends with one guy who made his own poles. He said, "Jane I'm going to make you a pole." She said, "Well, Gil's got a pole for me." He said, "I'm going to make a special pole." And he did. A 9.5-foot surf pole. It was a little lighter, but it was - she could handle it. Oh, she loved to fish. And we love to eat fish. My kids grew up on fish. I: The cardiologist will be happy. [laughs] Alright, well, you've got a good story, so thank you very much for taking the time to share it today. V: Well, I hope it's worth your while. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_VeenstraG2138V Title A name given to the resource Veenstra, Gilford (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-06-19 Description An account of the resource Gilford Veenstra was born in 1926, in Grand Rapids, Michigan, where he grew up. He enlisted in the United States Navy after his graduation from high school in June of 1944 with several of his classmates. He received basic training at Great Lakes, which is north of Chicago, Illinois. He received diesel training in Richmond, Virginia. In the spring of 1945, he was deployed to a small boat pool in the Philippines. During his first assignment, he spent time as a mechanic and earned his first stripe by fixing his Commander's personal boat. The boat pool in which he was assigned to was destroyed in an accidental explosion, which prompted his second assignment at Sangley Point, on Manila Bay, where he also served as a boat mechanic. To conclude his time in the Navy, Gilford Veenstra served temporary duty in Tacloban, where he was working when Japan surrendered. He was discharged and left the Philippines in the spring of 1946. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Veenstra, Gilford Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7a87f0ae603f238fba64d166ae20a6f6.m4v 7486b1245a1a70d73db5050a3112bca0 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/04fecb271fae50a5b93d9f6615d51ade.pdf ef020857e192eacc90f3134a66fcc428 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interviewee: Bruce Thatcher Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Gabrielle Angel Interview length: 1:25:00 00:00:00 I: We’re talking today with Bruce Thatcher of Bangor, Michigan, and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Bruce, you’ve come here today with a certain amount of decoration. Can you explain the various things that you are wearing? What are they? V: The very top is a Distinguished Flying Cross. Underneath and to one side is a Bronze Star with a v-device and an oak leaf cluster, which means you had two. There’s an Air Medal and some other stuff there too. I: And then on the vest, you have a patch there. That’s the insignia of the First Cavalry Division. V: Correct. I: And the hat? V: The hat is a wonderful Stetson, which is the pride of the First Cavalry. I: Was that something specifically- who got to wear that? Anybody who was in the division? V: Anybody who was in battle in the division. The one thing I did not bring today was the Gold Spurs. I: Actual spurs, like you put on boots spurs? V: Yes. I: Okay, very good. Alright, I put the hat over here to the side. Alright, let’s get started. To begin with, where and when were you born? V: I was born in Berwyn, Illinois, on August 24, 1941. I: Did you grow up there, or did you move around? V: My folks moved to Lombard, Illinois, anyways. I was basically raised in Lombard. At that time, Lombard was a sleepy little community, such as Hinsdale. I: There were still cornfields around. V: Yes, I used to go cut them in my backyard as a profession. I: Did you finish high school? �V: Yes. I: What year did you graduate? V: In 1959. I: What did you do after high school? 00:01:58 V: I went- my folks told me I was going to be a civil engineer. So, I went to Bradley University for two years and promptly flunked out. In the meantime, I learned how to be a surveyor. After I flunked out, I got a job with a surveying company. I: Let’s back up a little bit. Why did your family think you should be a civil engineer? V: That’s a good question. My dad thought the big thing was – now this sounds crazy- but he thought that we needed more sewage treatment plants. Civil engineers designed sewage treatment plants. I: What kind of work did your father do? V: He was a tool and die maker. He taught me how to, I could run a lathe when I was twelve. I could not stand going in his footsteps because I didn’t like being inside. Being a surveyor was, I liked it. I: Did you flunk out of school just because you couldn’t be bothered to do the work? V: No, I just, now I’ve come to find out I probably had a good case of ADA. I was, I tried hard. I always had to work as a dishwasher at a local restaurant. It wasn’t through the lack of effort. I just couldn’t do it. I: Your brain wasn’t wired for the kinds of college classes you were getting. V: At that time, right. I: On the other hand, you took to the surveying. V: Right. That kind of clicked. I knew geometry pretty good. I: How long did you work for the surveyor? V: Three years altogether. I went from being the low guy on the totem pole, called a rodman, to the guy in charge, called a party chief. I got to be party chief in a year, so I had a lot of responsibility. 00:04:10 I: How do you wind up in the military? V: We were starting to- Uncle Sam was almost knocking at the door but not quite. My friend who was also in the survey company had just gotten back from the Army. He had the coolest job, �where his job was to go around the world and find out what the diameter of the world was, and to locate stations where you could plot where the satellites were going. This was cool, and he said, “You gotta go to survey school in the Army, and this will help you.” So, he got me wrapped up into that. I: When did you enlist in the Army, then? V: I don’t remember exactly when it was. When did we say that was? Was it February? I: It was sometime in ’63. V: It was sometime in ’63. It was cold. I: So, probably early in the year. V: Yep. I remember getting on a train. I remember we got on a train in Chicago, and then somebody was running around on the train, saying there was a bomb on the train. I thought, forget that, so I stayed on the rack. And then an MP came and said there was a bomb on the train. So, that was the start of my military life: there was a bomb on the train. I: Where did they send you for training? V: Fort Knox, Kentucky. I: What did basic training consist of that time? V: As I recall, it was words called agony and misery that we were well acquainted with. I got a, the other thing is, backing up to something minor. During lunch time when I was surveying, I learned how to operate various pieces of heavy equipment. We would go up at that time to LS 21, which at that time was the biggest tractor. It weighed a lot. 00:06:15 V: When you’re in Fort Knox, you’ve got this questionnaire. Did you operate a vehicle over 1000 lbs.? Yeah, I think it was over that. I keep knocking off these, sure I could do that. It got down to the end, no, I probably didn’t do that. Then I got volunteered to be a truck driver in basic training. The very first time that I went to pick up the deuce and a half, I brought it back to the armory. It was black out, and you had to have someone guide you as you backed up. So, the armory sergeant was guiding me in, and I promptly broke three of the slats, and tore up the canvas on the back end of the truck. That wasn’t so cool. So, I wrapped that up and tied that up, and ran it around all day with that in kind of cruddy shape. Then, I decided that I’d better take it back through meal time and beyond in the evening. I took it back, and the motor pool sergeant was sitting there. “Just drive it around.” �This was a good thing. So, I drove it around. I drove this way pretty good, because I pushed it up. I parked it. I lived in fear from that day on that someday, they were going to come back. I learned real quick that next day, when I picked a truck up from the motor pool to give it a good inspection. That day never happened. I: So, you were never made pay back Uncle Sam for the damage? V: No. They showed us this wonderful film after we got our driver’s license of somebody driving the atomic cannon through some little town in Germany and taking out two houses. He had to pay for the two houses. 00:08:10 I: They did that sort of thing. So, how much of the basic training stuff did you have to do, with all of the drill and marching, that sort of thing? V: Just what everyone else does. I: So, the driving was on top of that? V: Yeah. I: How easy or hard was it for you to adjust to life in the Army? V: Relatively easy. It wasn’t hard at all. I: How did the drill sergeants treat you? V: Fine. There was another kind of a funny thing. My boss said, “You’re going to be sitting on a duffle bag. It’s going to be misting out. The biggest man that you’ve ever seen in your life is going to come over top of you, and he’s going to smile and look down and point at you. He’s going to have a shiny gold tooth.” He was absolutely right. I was sitting on the duffle bag, oh my, and he has a shiny gold tooth, and he says, “Thatcher, you’re mine.” That’s how it went. I don’t see how the man ever got inside a tank. His shoulders were too broad. I: At that time, did you know, did any of the people you were training with have trouble with it? V: Oh, yeah. There were a few people that would, what do you call it? Go over the hill. Then, they’d have to find them and bring them back. Oh, yeah. I: About how long did the basic training last? V: It wasn’t that long, I don’t think. Eight weeks, I think? I: Alright. At that point, did you have a specialization picked out? �V: No, they picked it out for me. It was not surveying, it was now artillery. I went to Fort Sill, Oklahoma. That’s where it’s at. 00:10:07 I: When you went to Fort Sill, initially what were they training you to do? V: Be a cannon cocker, but they also sent me to a leadership preparatory kind of school for two weeks. I: Leadership as in non-com level? V: Right. I: What kind of artillery do you train with? V: The 105 Howitzer. I: How much time did you spend doing that, do you think? V: I think that was another eight-week course. I: What would a day be like when you were in training there? V: I was what they called, what did they call it? A student guidon, or whatever. So, I’d have to make sure everybody got up, got dressed before the sergeant came in. Then I’d go and learn about how the Howitzer worked: what to do, what not to do, how to shoot it. We had people there who were, to the military’s credit, one was ER. He was a biology teacher in high school, so when we went out on the range, on the trail at night, he could track every critter in the burrow. He would police up scorpions and snakes and put them in his, we call it now the footlocker. On a Saturday inspection, when we had open footlocker inspection, here he is with scorpions and rattle snakes in different containers. The battery commander got some stuff and he actually ended up saving it all and put it in the armory in a place where he could keep them. He fed them, and he’d take them home when he was done. 00:12:12 I: [chuckles] So the Army did not object to this? V: No. It was really surprising. I: When you said ER, you mean enlisted reserve? V: Right. I: You had people that were in reserved training? V: Draftees, ER, RA. I: So, he was ER, was he there for training along with you, or was he doing this as part of his reserve duty? �V: He was doing his training. I: He just happened to be a collector while he was doing that, okay. Now, then, the leadership training, what did that consist of? V: That was, I would call that a highly regimented, highly motivational type-thing. They would teach you how to, let’s say if you want to show someone how to shine up their boots. So, you take one of the guy’s boots, shine it, give it back to him, tell him that you want to see his other boot like that. That was just some of the little things that they teach you. How to make a buck so it really looks good. All of the little things. I: This sounds like it’s sort of geared to being on a peace-time base somewhere rather than actually... V: Right, yep. I: out there in the fields somewhere. Did you do that course after the artillery training? V: Actually, before the artillery training. I: Before the artillery training, okay. So, you went from there to being the guidon for the platoon. I: Once you finish that stage of training, then what happens to you? 00:14:06 V: Then I went to the 2nd of the 2nd Field Artillery, which is there at Fort Sill. I was put in the survey section of the battalion. That was maybe less than a week before they were going to have a test to find out whether or not they were combat ready. The 2nd Lieutenant who was in charge of the survey section said, “Alright, we don’t have time to train you, so you’re going to be our third, I guess you’d call them calculators.” What it amounts to is, as long as you didn’t have the neat conveniences you have now. So, you’d use logarithmic tables to multiply and divide by, and you’d use logarithmic sines, cosines and tangents to figure out where you were at. When the day came for this test, and the test is where you’d have to survey in three batteries, then survey in the target. The test comes in that you’d have a time on target. For each battery is a different distance from the tube to the target, and the time of flight is different. You’d have an airburst directly over the target. That was the test. At the end of the time, we would have one guy calculating, one guy would have an answer, another guy would have another answer. The Lieutenant was looking at me. I couldn’t understand his form, so I would turn it upsidedown and draw a picture of each one and I did my own calculations that way. He looked over my stuff and decided to use my answers. 00:16:05 I: Okay, how did that work? How well did that go? �V: It went very well, there was a time on target for each of the batteries and bam, hit the target. I: Okay. V: So, the next day, I was a corporal. The next day, I was an E5. I: Now, are you in charge of that section, or just number two? V: I was number two when it comes to that. Another humorous thing was, I saw an ad in the newspaper that needed a survey party that needed to survey in some pilings for an industrial project. So, I called them up and gave them a bid. So, I hired the second lieutenant as my rod man, the sergeant as my instrument man, and then I had to figure out everything from feet and degrees to meters and mills, since we borrowed the government’s equipment. We went out and made more money in two weekends than we made, in my case, three months. Everybody made a lot more money pretty quick on a weekend. I: How long, then, did you spend with the 2nd of 2nd? V: Not too long, because after that they quickly asked me if, let’s see, what else happened then? They asked me to be on the Fort Sill drill team, so I was on the Fort Sill drill team. And then they interviewed me for going into OCS. The next slot that came open, I went into OCS. I: And did you do the Officer Candidate School at Fort Sill? V: Yes. I: That’s still artillery, so that’s where they train people. V: Yes. I: What did that school consist of? 00:18:00 V: That was the best period of education of my life. Everything from an education standpoint point of view, they were so far ahead of, let’s say, Bradley University that it was scary. They had no windows in that place, so you couldn’t be looking out at the birds. They had for every period of instruction, prior to that period of instruction, we usually had captains as instructors, they would have an E7-E9, plus a field grade officer would listen to his presentation before he gave it to the students. You would get a handout that would say what was going to happen in this period of instruction. You were not to even think about writing anything. If you started writing while he was talking, you would be doing pushups for the entire period. You only write when he stops for a second. Now, he had, in the classroom he had channels in his blackboard, and I don’t remember how many channels there were. He might have had five different things already done. You don’t see the back of him when he’s writing his name, no. It’s already there. The next thing would happen, �and it might be a chalkboard with such and such on it. The next one out might be a magnetic board and we’d be talking about moving things around for tactics. Another one might come out and it might have sticky things on it. If he thinks that somebody is falling asleep, there might be a firecracker rolled on the thing, make sure everybody is still awake. That I carried over to when I went back to Bradley, was I never wrote while a professor was talking. 00:20:06 I: So, there was a very tight structure that managed to fit you very well? You could learn that way? V: Yes, that’s exactly right. And then, keeping yourself in tip top shape because you would… I think our typical day started at about 6:00, maybe 5:30 in the morning and it would go through 12:00. When we were lowerclassmen, there might have been 50 of us in the barracks. You’d take a shower with all 50 in two minutes. Then, when you walked out, you were cleaning, you’d take your towels and rub down the walls. The last one would take the goldfish and put them back in the toilets. I: Why were there goldfish in the toilets? V: That proved that they were clean. We started off with 50 in lower class, in middle class there might have been 20, and upper class there might have been ten. I: Does that mean the other guys get weeded out in the process? V: It means that they had to go up to the officer and say, “I quit.” They don’t weed you out, you have to quit. Sometimes, you low-crawl into formation to the mess hall. If you weren’t eating right, the next thing you know, you’d be told to eat underneath the table in the mess hall. I: And, you survived all of that. V: We survived all of that. I: Once you have completed that course… I guess, in terms of, were you getting any actual artillery training during all of this? V: Oh yeah, there were various pieces of equipment. I: What were they teaching you? V: You were learning how to adjust it. At Fort Sill they have in some places. rolling hills like this. [gestures] You don’t know if you’ll land in this gorge or that gorge, so you have to really see where, after the explosion is, you have to look at your map and see how many little gorges there are between you and it. It was very difficult. �00:22:30 I: Were you doing this all on 105s, or did you get with 155s, or did you get anything else? V: We went up to eight-inch. V: Are you doing fire direction control now? V: I do all of it. Fire direction control, learning everything. I: Did you do any aerial observation at that point? V: No. I: So, you’re still – V: On the ground. I: On the ground with your artillery unit. Okay. How long did that officer training course go? V: That was six months. I: Once you complete that, then what happens to you? V: Then, I stayed at Fort Sill for another course that was about six weeks long, which was a target acquisition course, where we learned how to use different kinds of radars that were coming into play then that I never saw overseas. Again, there was more surveying. I ended up, it was multi-national there, so I ended up being a tutor for some Saudi Arabians, folks that were dumber than a box of rocks. I: Did you have success teaching them anything? V: Yeah, and I had some good experiences with an Italian Major, and an Indian Colonel. On Thanksgiving Day, just outside of Fort Sill is the Wichita Wildlife Refuge. It’s got long-horned cattle running loose along with some bison. Some friends, we used to go out and see. One of my buddies was an Eskimo. We would do, what do you call it? A coup, where you would go up to a bison and touch it. We learned how to do that from him. We did that on rocks, because he can’t climb rocks, but… We found out that long-horned cattle are far worse than bison. 00:24:40 V: So, anyways, I took them out there. We found the bison. The Italian guy had his camera and he’s going around there, and he didn’t see a calf getting in between he and the mom. I had a Volkswagen. The Indian guy, he saw this, so he’s taking a picture of the Italian taking a picture. Then, the guy wanted to run. I physically had to hold him down and we had to walk slow. Running is not a good thing. We got into the Volkswagen. Now, we are surrounded by buffalo in the Volkswagen for about a half an hour, then they disperse. I: [chuckles] V: It was kind of a funny thing. �I: Alright, so, a little bit different combat experience there. Now, having completed the target acquisition course, do they assign you to a new unit? V: Now, we go to Fort Bragg, North Carolina, into a target acquisition company for the 18th Airborne Corps. And, since it’s 18th Airborne Corps, the next thing I do is go to Fort Benning and learn how to leave a perfectly good flying airplane. 00:26:05 I: So, you’re going to jump school there. V: I went to jump school there. I: What is the basic program there? How do they go about teaching you how to jump off of an airplane? V: Oh, you start off jumping off little things, and they get bigger and bigger. Then, they have this tower, you have to jump off of this tower with all of your gear on. Then, you go and leave the airplane. I was the last guy on the stick, that they call. It was a flying boxcar. We were up in the woods. The first jump, though, you’re always much higher than you are in the other jumps. I can remember that so vividly. You leave the airplane like this, and you watch the wings slowly go away from you, slowly go away from you. Then, whack, you go to the end of the static line, and thank you God, and I looked down and there is a big, red-tailed hawk soaring below me. That was really cool. That was really cool. Then, you hear the guy on the loudspeaker, “Whatever number is on your helmet, you have to pull open, risers, otherwise you’re going to end up in a tree.” I: So, it is possible for them to coach you as you’re coming down? V: Yes. Yes, it is. I: How many jumps do you actually make? V: Five there. I: So, you do that, and then you go back to Fort Bragg. Now, what are you doing with your unit? V: What we did is, two other officers and I, we were 2nd Lieutenants at the time, we rented a house off of base. We bought a 2-man folding kayak. We had a lot of fun with that. Once a month for one week, we had to be completely ready with everything ready in your car, so that when they blew the whistle, you would go to Pope Air Force Base, get on a plane, and off you go. Then, “Oh, we don’t need you.” And then you come back, and you leave the airplane before it lands. That was the, if you will, the world-wide ready reaction force. 00:28:42 �I: Did you do more conventional training the rest of the time? V: Yeah. Basically, teaching the guys surveying. They had a thing come out then, it was a huge box called a gyroscope that you had an airdrop that you’d have to hook up to a generator. Then, from that, you could actually find out where you’re at, other than by shooting stars. Otherwise, you’d have to shoot stars at night. I: How long did you spend at Fort Bragg? V: About six months, I think. I was supposed to go to Korea. I: Did they tell you about that, or did you get orders and they revoke them, or …? V: I don’t remember. All I remember is, again, the good stuff is, I was, at the time since I was a surveyor in civilian life, single, independently wealthy. I bought like five or six shares of Sears and Roebuck, and I had my dad as the, whatever you call it now, that could look after your financial stuff. So, I might have had, heck, $200 worth of stock. One day, as the officer of the day, killing time, I’m looking through the, oh, I’ve got to buy some Flying Tiger Airline Stock. I’m going to go to Korea, and by the time they would lamp out. It took a long time for them to fly everybody over to Korea, it happened twice a year. By the time they’re flying over, it’s big expenses, so it takes maybe two months to get money back from Uncle Sam. Now, their stock is up. They were very cyclic, so I bought a line and got a little something going there. But then, I forgot to sell. 00:30:42 I: Oh. V: And then, I went to Vietnam, so when I got out, they were still flying to Vietnam. I: So, stock was okay. V: Flying Tiger paid for my continued college education. I: So, you had orders to Korea. How or why did they change, or do you not know? V: I don’t know. They said, “Son, you’re going to go to Vietnam.” I: And when did you actually go to Vietnam? V: In July of 1966, the latter part of July. I: Now, what did they do, did they do anything to prepare you to go to Vietnam? Extra training or anything like that? V: Yes. There were some things they had to do. Shots, absolutely had shots. Then I joked around with the medic. “You’re stabbing me two at a time with these darned things.” He says, “You’re right, sir. You’ve got to learn how to give shots.” �So, he would take two needles at a time and backhand them into your arm. Then, I would take one and backhand one into his. He taught me how to give shots. That was different. I: Probably not standard procedure. V: Probably not standard procedure. 00:32:04 V: Learned a little bit about the Vietnamese language. I’m horrible when it comes to language. I didn’t get much out of that. I also was on a detail learning how to, we had special forces folks at Fort Bragg at that time. Thank goodness I didn’t have to perform what I learned, which was knocking on the door and informing a person that Sgt. Jones didn’t make it. I’m glad I didn’t have to do that. I: Did they give you a leave before you go over? V: Yes. I: Was that 30 days? V: I don’t remember. I don’t think it was that long. All I know is that I ran every day, and I ran a long way. I: Now, how do they actually get you to Vietnam? V: We go over to O’Hare Field, over the military side. My parents are there. We sat and sat and sat in wait to find out the military aircraft wasn’t going to make it. The next day we went home, and we reported to the United Airlines. We got on a DC-6, which they got out of mothballs. They couldn’t shut the door. So, they had a mechanic go inside, take the glass off of the copilot’s side. He crawled out with that piece of glass and then put glass back in. I: The DC-6, is that a prop plane? V: That’s a four-engine prop plane. It went so slow and was not very pressurized, so when we got to the Rocky Mountains, we flew through the passes, not up and over them. You could see people on the ground. 00:34:10 I: How long did that take? V: A long time. It was really a cool flight; you could see everything. It’s not like today, where all you can see is a speck down there. I: Were you going to California or Washington? V: We went to San Diego. I stayed for two days out on the, what is that, the Presidio, I think that’s what that’s called. I: That’s in San Francisco. �V: San Francisco, that’s right. I stayed in Presidio for a couple days and froze, because it was cold there. I: You didn’t have to stay at the big depot in Oakland, which is what a lot of guys process through. V: Yep. I: From San Francisco then to Vietnam? V: Yep. I: What route did you fly? Do you remember? V: We flew in a C-141 to the Philippines. We left the airplane in the Philippines for a little bit and it was like going into an oven. That’s all I remember about the Philippines. I: From the Philippines to Vietnam? V: Yep. I: Where did you land in Vietnam? V: Oh. I think it was in Pleiku, and from Pleiku I went to An Khe in a Caribou. I: Which is a smaller… V: A smaller, two-engine turbine prop. I: What unit were you joining at An Khe. V: The 1st of the 77th Field Artillery. I: And that’s part of the 1st Cavalry Division. V: Right. I: Once you arrive at An Khe, what do they do with you? V: They tell you to bend over and here comes the biggest Gamma globin shot you’ve ever seen in your life. It looked like a horse syringe coming at you. I: What was the reason for that shot? What were they trying to prevent? V: I don’t know. 00:38:18 I: Just trying to protect you from as many infections as possible? V: That’s right. I: Did the Cavalry have any kind of orientation period for you, or did you go right to your unit? V: I think I went straight to my unit. I don’t remember any sort of orientation at all. �I: Once you join that unit, what do you start doing? V: Well, I join that unit, but at that time they were out. I think there was a short period of time where I had to go with the local residents. They were cleaning up around the perimeter. I would watch them, and then they would get paid. I think that was about a week. Then, I went with the unit out to, I don’t remember exactly where, but it was out near the Cambodian and Laotian border. That was where we first went. I: What is your actual job? What were you first doing with this unit? V: Well, I was the low guy on the totem pole when it comes to officers. At night, I would be in the FDC, the Fire Direction Control, and would be if any fire mission came up. Sometimes, they would have interdictionary fire, where you would pick a spot on the map and shoot it for the heck of it, thinking they might be there. I would give the orders to the gun section. 00:38:02 V: One night, we got mortared, and we had white phosphorus projectiles. At that heat, the white phosphorus turns into a liquid. You have to keep them further, and the fuse are on the projectiles. The fuse operates by, when there’s a shot, there’s a little ball baring that goes to the back end of the fuse. Then, the rifling of the barrel throws the little ball baring out. Now you got a clear path, so when the point hits something, that flame will go through the fuse and into the projectile. So, these things are standing on end, on a hill. They got knocked around by mortars, so they got knocked down the hill. Since I am the newbie and expendable, I get the opportunity of placing about fifty white phosphorus shells away from everybody else and touching them off. That was a scary operation. I: Did you have anybody helping you with that? V: Oh, no. They kept everyone as far away as possible. You can get rid of one guy, but you don’t want to get rid of them all. I: So, it’s not a job they would assign to an enlisted man? V: Oh, no, no. I: Lucky you. Okay. V: There’s a rank lower than private. That would be called 2nd Lieutenant. I: Initially, you’re on night watch and not going out on any operations yet? V: Not yet. I: And how long do you have to do that? V: It might have been two weeks. �Then, early, early in the morning, the Battery Commander says, “You’re going to go with the 2nd of the 12th Infantry C Company because they just lost their FO.” 00:40:05 V: So then, this is actually a pretty good story. So, they picked me up at daybreak in the command and control helicopter for the battalion commander. We go to the Battalion Commander, and he tells me what I’m going to do. He says, “Don’t worry about a thing. Your recon man has got your map, your SOI, SSI. He’s got everything. All we need is you. Go get on my helicopter and make us proud.” And there I went, okay? I: M-hm. V: So off we go. Again, this is now in the second time the Cav went into the A Shau Valley. I: The A Shau or the Ia Drang? V: The Ia Drang Valley. It was their second time into there. So, we go in there and it’s in a little itsy-bitsy clearing with a little bump on it, and there are stumps sticking out, and I’m wearing civilian… Not civilian, stateside greens, stateside boots and an M-16 I’ve never shot. I jump out of the helicopter, go to the edge. There’s nobody there. So, first thing that came to mind was, “Oh, crap.” So, I went around the LZ quietly. There was nobody there. I found a place that could be defensible by one person. I crawled backwards through the reefs and the elephant grass, straighten them up, and then go backwards a little more, straighten them up, straighten them up, straighten them up, until I got to my position. 00:42:09 So, it was- I’ll explain it this way. If you’ve ever been squirrel hunting and it’s really noisy in the forest. In the jungle, it’s downright loud, because you’ve got big animals, big birds, and they’re all making all kinds of noise, until somebody comes in. Then it gets stone quiet. I had got to the stone quiet, where the loudest thing was my heartbeat. It stayed that way for a while, then it got noisy again. Then, I figured out, I’m going crawl up a tree at night. Why? I had no idea, but I saw a tree good to crawl up. I just had to stay put and not be observed, and then it got near dark. I could see an airplane going in a thing like this. [gestures] Hmm, he might be looking for me, but I can’t stand up. That’s not an option. Then this voice, the voice says, “Bruce, roll over and make a snow angel in the elephant grass.” I said, “Yes, sir.” �There I am, making a snow angel in the elephant grass. Airplane goes over, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing. Then, next thing you know, just as you thought you went insane, twenty minutes later in comes two gun ships and a slick. They strafe each side and I jump on that thing, there we were. The next day, we got into a fire fight right there. 00:44:05 I: Did you find out what had happened, or why you were left there by yourself? V: The helicopter pilot just thought he put me in the right place. The humorous part of the whole thing is that the guy that is the company commander of that company, later on, we were telling stories one day. You wouldn’t believe this, he was the liaison between the entry company and the flight crew. That was his first job. He said, “We lost a Forward Observer someplace.” And he was talking about all the things they were trying to do to find this guy. Then, he says, he was a fat air force guy, he says, “Then, when was the last time you saw a goof making a snow angel in the elephant grass? I think I’ve got your guy.” So, I patiently listen to him tell this story. Then he says, “Then, two gun ships came in.” And then he had got the call from the pilot. The pilot says, “Man, you should have seen how high that guy jumped to get into the helicopter!” Then, I said, “I could have jumped higher.” [Both laugh] That was kind of humorous. I: When you joined the unit, you said that unit got into a firefight at that same LZ the next day? V: The next day, same place. I saw where I made my snow angel. I: What were your duties or functions with the company? What were you doing for them? 00:45:55 V: My job is to provide fire support for our infantry company. I had an RTO who would carry the radio and a non-commissioned officer that we would call our recon sergeant. There would be three of us. Every day, I would be walking with a point squad, every other day. I’d take it one day, then the recon sergeant would take it the next day. If he was walking with point squad, I would go out on ambush. We were either out on ambush at night or out with point squad. We saw way more than the infantry guys did. �I: So, you’re not with the company’s command post, then? V: One of us would be with the Company Commander, one would be with the lead squad. I: Where does the ambush fit into that? Is that what you do at night? V: Ambushes, every night we would set an ambush. We would set guys around listening posts, and then we would usually set up a little ambush a little bit away from the company if we saw something that looked like a good trail or whatever. I: How much opposition were you encountering when you were first out there? V: Sometimes, we would go a week without anything. Other times, it would be every day we would find something. It is hard to put your finger on that. I: Now, who were the enemy in that area? Were they North Vietnamese Regulars or were they Viet Cong? V: Most of them were North Vietnamese Regulars. Some were Viet Cong. We were lucky enough to have the most unusual character join the infantry company, who I believe worked for the CIA at one time, because we would go into a mountain yard [Montagnard] village, and he would know, by name, the residents of the mountain yard village. He taught us some very unique things. The neatest one he taught us was if we were getting, let’s say, a sniper was shooting at you, if it was an AK-47, you would know it was the North Vietnamese Army. If it was, they used M-1 Carbines or whatever oddball thing, then it was more than likely you had Viet Cong. 00:48:32 I: Right. V: One of the key things that the North Vietnamese like to do, was that they knew that the Americans liked to run down a sniper. So, they would set up an L-shaped ambush, and they would just shoot at you with an AK-47. Then, they would just move a little bit, move a little bit, move a little bit. Now, you’re chasing them right into their ambush. On the other hand, if I was being shot with a Carbine or something like that, that was free game. So, we’d kind of, you would go, if it was an AK-47, you’d shoot and shoot. Being a old surveyor, I could read a map probably better than anybody, so I’d look at it and say, “Well, if I’m them, here’s where I’m setting up an L-shaped ambush. Call Fire Mission right on that spot. Why wait to get an ambush?” I: Right. V: So, that worked out quite well. I: When you had fire fights start, how large would those be? Were they very small unit actions most of the time? �V: I would say, that was a platoon war. Sometimes a company war. There was a lot of platoon stuff, platoon versus a company. 00:50:00 I: About how large were your platoons normally? V: Not very. We were probably understaffed. We were understaffed. I’m trying to think of how... We might have had twenty people in a platoon, maybe. I: Where you should have at least thirty-something. V: Yep. A rifle company should have like 150. I don’t know if we ever broke 100. I: That was characteristic of most of the war, at least after we first went. V: Yeah. I: Did you have a sense of how effective you were, or how successful you were? V: Yes, as a matter of fact. When we were doing this, this sounds crazy in retrospect, but we chased the North Vietnamese Army. That was our job: to chase them. We were very seldom ever in a defense mode, expect when we would be taking a break and we’d be around an artillery battery. So, there would be times where we would be running up against teenaged kids and old men. That was not a good sign for the other guys. I: Would those be Viet Cong then? V: Well, they were dressed in NVA uniforms. I: Okay. V: So, you know, I was thinking that this was going to be over pretty soon. We did a good job, the group that I was with. I don’t know how else to put it. I heard, I did not hear it myself, that my call sign at that time was Top Kick 38. Hanoi Hannah had promised Top Kick 38 to Uncle Ho’s birthday. That didn’t happen. 00:52:14 I: Now, would you listen to Hanoi Hannah or would you listen to radio at all, or would you not have a chance? V: We didn’t, but the people back in the FDC could. I: Where were you operating out of? The main divisional base was at An Khe, then there are more bases that you might fly out of. Where were you from? V: Anywhere from, anybody that got in trouble, we went after them. We were in Canton, we were in Dak To, in the Bong Son area, up in the lower part of I Corps, the northern part of III Corps. We didn’t have a place to call home. �A place to call home was a poncho, a poncho liner and a rubber air mattress under your back; that was your home. I: The aircraft have to have some kind of facility to be based at. V: The fixed-wingers were at An Khe and some of them at English. I don’t remember where they were at when we were at Dak To, or if they were at Dak To. I: As a forward observer, often times you’re out in the field with the line units. V: Right. I: Officers in Vietnam often switch assignments. Did you get a different assignment? 00:53:56 V: I stayed out there longer than most. I was good at what I did. I was pretty good. And then I ended up as the aerial observer for that battalion. I: That’s when you would fly out of the larger bases. V: When I finished up, I was at LZ English. I would start off in an H-13 helicopter in the morning. I’d adjust the firing battery, so they would hit their targets. Then, I would look for bad guys. The great advantage of that H-13 is that you could turn the engine off. It was gas powered, and you would auto-gyrate down the hill quietly. Since I’d been up and down a lot of those hills, I knew what to look for. Before you’d hit the rice paddy, you’d turn the engine on and go back up again. I: The helicopter flights, that would be what you would do first thing in the morning. Then, you’d switch over to the fixed-wing observation aircraft. V: Right, an 01 Bird Dog. I always used to, I was sort of a dastardly person, I guess. I would take a, it was nice eating hot food by the way. That was a real plus of doing this. I would take a number 10 can that they would use in the mess hall. I’d load that thing up with C-4, nuts and bolts, screws. Take a hand grenade fuse and put it in there. When I was up in the Bird Dog, I’d have a bunch of those with me. I’d lean out and drop them. I: So, you’d have presents for your friends on the ground. V: That’s right. 00:56:00 I: Go back to the time that you spent as forward observer. Are there specific incidents or events that kind of stand out for you? V: Yes. There’s one in particular that I’d really like to expand on if we have time. I: Oh, yeah. �V: So, the date is when I got a Bronze Star. You have to pick that one out, because I can’t remember. On that particular day, there was a massive air assault. Most of the helicopters were being used. We were blessed with a CBS film crew and a bunch of media people. Independent reporters, independent photographers. We were blessed to have them. About an hour after we got those folks, we got a call that there was a friendly platoon pinned down a couple miles away from us. We hot footed us over there, but the CBS film crew couldn’t hot foot it over there. We had to keep some of our folks back with them and go at a more leisurely pace. When we got to where we were going, we managed to, we flanked the bad guys. I pounded the, I called in three artillery batteries on the enemy and we got the guys out. This started at, must be near noon. It finished up at around midnight. In the meantime, the CBS film crew went up to the Captain and said, “Millions of Americans want to see your brave soldiers in action. We have to be on the next helicopter out.” 00:57:57 V: The captain said, “No, you aren’t getting on anything until we get all of our wounded out.” They tried to get on one helicopter and the story that I got was that the crew chief put his 1911 up to the head of one of the CBS film crew. Then, they tried it one other time and that didn’t work either. Then it got to be early morning, and finally everything calmed down. Then, just before daybreak, you’re back at it again. The film crew goes around and tried to interview Pvt. Jones or Pvt. Smith. Pvt. Jones and Pvt. Smith wouldn’t give them the time of day. They go up to the captain and they complained and said, “You told your men not to talk to us. They’re going to talk Westmoreland.” And, the captain replied very quickly and said, “I’ve already talked to Westmoreland and I don’t want to have you folks around me anymore, and he’ll make sure that that happens.” That was kind of cool. So, then for the next day, we chased the North Vietnamese into this little burg. There was this one particular grass hut house. Inside of it and outside of it, buried was a bunch of rice, enough to feed a very large quantity of people, and eating utensils. We were on what was called a search and destroy mission. Our job was to find that stuff and burn it. In lieu of burning it, right about the time of it, we captured a North Vietnamese captain and a North Vietnamese sergeant who were in the political section. On them was a typed piece of paper that said this poor lady had to pay taxes to the North Vietnamese for a certain amount. Let’s say five dollars a quarter. If she didn’t, and if she didn’t put this food in there, they would kill her oldest son first and progressively work their way down. I: We are going to pause here because this tape is about up. 01:00:36 �I: In your story, we had gotten to the point after the fire fight with the film crew and so forth, you had found a village where they were storing rice. You had captured a couple of North Vietnamese officers and they had a document on them indicating what would happen to this lady if she wasn’t storing their rice. Once you found that, now what happens? V: Well, it’s just a tragedy. Here is this poor lady. She has no husband. She knows that we control the day and they control the night. What are you going to do? She did what she had to do. As it turned out, the ARVN came in and we loaded up a chinook with all of that rice and stuff. We did not burn down her hooch. We don’t know what happened afterwards. We don’t know whether or not they came back and killed her kid. But, it’s just a microcosm. It might be a microcosm of what’s going on in Afghanistan. I: In a lot of ways, similar, yeah. V: What’s different about it is just, war’s horrible. That’s all there is to it. 01:01:55 I: I looked up the date just for the record here. According to your Bronze Star citation, that was February 14 of 1967, so it would have happened on Valentine’s Day. V: Yeah. The commanding officer was Capt. Hightower, and he was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross for what he did that night. I: Now, were there other incidents or particular events that happened while you were forward observer that you want to bring here before we move on? V: It’s the coordination. I was so lucky to have a company commander, his name is Simpson, and it sounds crazy, but there’s a thing called range dispersion when it comes to shooting an artillery piece. That means, it’s good left and right, but it can go a little long or a little short. You’ve heard of short rounds and such. You avoid that by shooting parallel with your people. So, in the middle of a firefight, we would be moving our people so that we would get off the gun target line. Or, I would adjust the fire so that we might hedge on a line of safety, okay? Then, when you add in another artillery battery which is coming from some other place, and now you gotta wag that around too. At times, I was shooting three artillery batteries and naval gun fire, all on the same target. Then, the other thing that really screws up the works was that my friends from the Air Force would come on station. They want to show how good they are. That means you have to stop the artillery for a brief moment for the NVA to do something. We tried to eliminate that moment to the very minimum, so I’d be talking to the FAC and I’d tell him that he has five seconds until the last round hits the ground, and he would roll in. Same that we had in the Cav, we had what they called aerial rocket artillery, which was on helicopters. Same thing applies to them. Artillery rounds and aircraft don’t mix. There’s a lot going on that most people don’t see. I was very fortunate. I never killed a single American. Matter of fact, I never wounded one seriously. We took care of business. �01:04:48 I: If you’re calling in artillery fire, how much of a time lag would there be from when you called in the coordinate and when the rounds hit? V: There are two types of things. One is if we were setting up shop at night, I would call into a certain spot. I would remember at night, for this particular fire mission it was Sierra Azul 163. I’d call fire mission Sierra Azul 163 first round smoke, and they would be coming in a minute, whatever the time of flight was. It wouldn’t take long. When you’re out in the middle of nowhere, and the first one comes, I think we would have a smoke round at least in two minutes. We were quick. That’s why, like you mentioned before, we had one battery assigned to this group of infantry people and they were close. I: Then you could call in additional support from other places as well. So, I guess, over the course of the time you spent with 2/12, what kind of casualties did they take? 01:06:13 V: There was a fair amount of people on the wall, but probably less than most. I think we did, we probably averaged much better than most, as far as guys coming out alive. I: Was some of that just good quality commanders and experience? V: It’s a lot has to do with it. Like I said, Capt. Simpson recognized that there are other things than sticking a bayonet on the end of a riffle. If you got firepower use it. We worked very well together and that was, it worked out good. As we are sitting here, I am thinking of one other thing… Do you remember seeing the funeral procession for John F. Kennedy? I: A little too young for that. Alive, but a little too young. V: A little too young for that. Next time you look at it, you’ll see a lieutenant. He has a horse with an upside-down, he was with a sister company. He was a company commander, and if you look up the Courage of Sam Bird. It is written by a guy named PT Collins, who was his FO. This was right near, this was in Bong Son. He went, his company went, and it was a hot LZ. I was a part of the platoon of a greater reaction force. We were right in after him. He caught a round right in his helmet that circumcised his skull. That’s the guy. 01:08:18 V: The night before, we were joking around and throwing mountain-yard spears at targets. The next day, he had a hole in him. Not good. But, our company did well. Like I said, our company commander was not afraid to use firepower. We used it. �I: How much contact did you have with the Montagnard while you were in the field? Did you see them often, or just very rarely? V: Only when we were in the area. If you were in the Bong Son area, you aren’t going to see them. When you were closer to Laos, you were going to see them. They were friendly. The other thing that we did, we bailed out special forces’ camps all of the time. It seems like they were always getting in trouble. I: Would those have a small number of Americans and a group of Montagnard working out of them? V: Yeah. I: They would then be national targets for the NVA. V: Right. I: So, you’d come in and help there. Now, when you were in the lowlands and the areas closer to the coast, the Bong Son area and so forth, did you see much of the regular Vietnamese civilians? 01:09:50 V: We saw them from a distance. To talk with them, I don’t think that ever happened. One time we went down in the, down the center of a street, and Han and I took a picture of a Shell Oil Station and a little schoolhouse. That’s about it. I don’t, I do remember little girls coming up. They were always very pretty in their little, white uniforms. This was probably how we lost some of our guys this way, she’d say, “GI, you’re number one, you want a Coke?” The guy would say, “Sure, I’d like to have a Coke.” He’d hand her over some money, and the next thing you’d know, they’re both gone. Not good. I: Did you know people who that happened to, or did you just hear about it? V: I saw it. I saw it. I also saw a guy that was, he was one of these kinds of people that would never follow orders. He was a newbie. We had just gotten done running some NVA out of a village, and here was this black box. It’s sitting in the doorway of a house. This kid, you can see he wants to pick it up. I yelled at him, “Don’t pick that up.” He bent over like this, and he’s looking at me, and I’m yelling at him. The next thing I know, I’m picking myself up with his flesh on my face. Not good. I: While you were in, you had a full year tour in Vietnam? �V: Yep. I: Did you have an R&R during that time of any kind? V: I went to Bong Kong. [noise as he realizes that was not where he went.] I: Hong Kong or Bangkok? V: I’ll come up with it yet. Bangkok. That was Bangkok and Hong Kong thrown together. Yes, Bangkok. It was the first time I saw Oriental people with a smile on their face and laughing. I: How long do you get for that? Was it a week? V: I don’t remember. I don’t think it was a full week, I think it was five days or something like that. I: Was it hard to go back to Vietnam after being in a place where they weren’t shooting at you? V: It was, but it didn’t take long because you got the guys you are used to. They are your guys. 01:12:30 I: How would you characterize morale in the units you served in in Vietnam? V: I think our morale was extremely good. It was extremely good. Another little short story is when it came time to leave. I was at Oakland Airport. There were two guys that had came from Detroit. They were from the same squad. One was black one was white. My airplane was going to O’Hare Field. Theirs was going to Detroit, leaving a little later than mine. Last I saw them, they were crying and hugging each other. They didn’t want to go home. I: This is now 1967, and you’re starting to get some riots in Detroit and other things going on. V: Yep. I had an opportunity of getting my recon sergeant a Bronze Star with Senator Levin. I told him about it. That got his attention. He was, at that time, he was on City Council for the city of Detroit. I: When you got short or close to the end of your time, did your duties change at all? 01:14:02 V: Yes, they did. The commander of the 1st Cav had me teach all incoming infantry and artillery officers major and below how to adjust fire. That tells me that I did something good. So, I would teach them how to do it, and as an example, we’d have them start off and I’d give them a minute to look at their map and decide the coordinates, and then the first round would be smoke. I’d give them 30 seconds to make an adjustment for, let’s say, high explosives. I’d tell them to take off their helmet, take off their liner and put their helmet back on. Then, they’d have 15 seconds to adjust. I’d put a 10-ft piece of bamboo, and I’d start banging them over the head with a piece of bamboo. Then, I had a major complain to me. �I said, “Well, wait until you get shot at with an AK-47 if you think this is distracting.” So, I kept on beating on them. Little did I know that the Deputy Commander of the 1st Cav was behind me one time when I was whacking him. He said, “Son, that was the finest period of instruction I have ever seen in my life. Do not do that back in the States.” I: [laughs] When you finish your tour in Vietnam, was your enlistment about up at that time? V: It was. They had offered me a thing to go to the War College in Pennsylvania, both as a student and as an instructor. Like I said before, when we were there, we were coming up against kids and old men. I thought this was over. The thing that I, this sounds crazy, whatt I enjoyed about being in combat is that the higher the rank means the more power you got. There were times that I talked to someone named Parachute 6 who was not on my SOI SSI, but he managed me to get the cruiser Canberra to come down and play with me, along with all sorts of Air Force assets. This is good. 01:16:34 V: On the other hand, I’m not the kind of person that liked to go and, you had to join the Officers Club, and then as a 2nd lieutenant, at New Years Eve, I wanted to watch the Rose Bowl. No, you had to go to the commanding officer’s house and you had to wear the dress blue uniform that costs two month’s pay. You had to have your little card, you had to put it on the silver platter. That was not my, I’m not that kind of person, okay. So, I decided I was going to go back to college, and back to college I went. I: Did you go back into the Reserves of some fashion like that or did you have a Reserve commitment now? V: No. I: So, you’re basically out. V: I’m out. I: So, you go back to Bradley again? V: Yes. I: How does that go this time around? V: I flunked out so bad that I had to be on probation for three semesters, and that probation meant I had to be on the Dean’s List. So, I was on the Dean’s List for five semesters and got out. 01:17:56 I: What do you attribute the change to? Just how you learned in the Army? �V: The way I was taught in the Army, about the idea of, for me, if I don’t, I can’t write and listen at the same time. I think that was the key thing. That, and you’re a little more mature the next go around. V: At Bradley University we had a Veterans Club, which consisted of about forty guys. Our house got, we got kicked out of campus because we might have been a little rowdy. We had a higher grade point average than the honors fraternity. We had one touchdown scored against us in two seasons of playing flag football against fraternities, one of which was very vehemently against the war. We had an occasion, I was the secretary and I got called up to the Dean’s Office because, in the Student Union where we had a bunch of tables, there was a bunch of communist stuff that had gone around. All you had to do was, you had to pick it up and you could leave a donation at the end. So, we went through and we all went through and donated a penny and burnt it in the Quadrangle. So, I got called up to the Dean of Students. While I was in the Dean of Student’s Office, the American flag went down and the North Vietnamese flag went up in the Quadrangle. So, when we got through with that, the American flag went back up and the North Vietnamese flag got burned. According to the police report, it was an unfair fight between 150 college students and 30 veterans. I: And the unfair part… V: Let’s just say, the college students didn’t do too well. 01:20:00 I: Now, was it sort of a constant thing to have to deal with the anti-war movement on campus? V: It was non-stop. The one good thing was that in the curriculum I was in, I had switched from engineering to construction, is three of them were ex-military Army officers. I: Three of the professors? V: Yes, they were professors. So, oddly enough, you’d go in there. Here’s your period of instruction, here it is all outlined for you. Okay, I can do this. But, yes, it was non-stop. I: Now did you have a sense that the protestors and so forth were targeting the soldiers themselves and the veterans? Or was it a more political, anti-government policy approach? V: I think both. It was pretty, it was a different thing. You know, I stop and think about it and I’m 30 years-old and I’m going to college. You stick out like a sore thumb. I: You’re also a little more grown up than most of them. V: That’s right. I: When did you graduate from college? V: Woo, 1970 or 1971. It’s funny, I don’t know when I graduated from college, but I can tell you everything that happened in that one year, though, in Vietnam. �I: In Vietnam, yeah, sure. What kind of job did you get when you got out? V: I was a, I went back to work back with the company where I was a surveyor, only this time I was an estimator for heavy construction. I had that job for a while, then I thought I’d get a, a guy offered me such a deal, and it turned out that that was the world’s biggest sleazebag. I learned how uncouth some business can be. 01:22:06 V: Then, I got a job with the exact opposite, the Austin Company, which built specific-use buildings such as Oceanarium at Brookfield Zoo. I built a printing press facility for the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, which is five stories high and 385 ft long, and a building for St Jude’s Children’s Hospital. Specific-use buildings. They were the exact opposite [of the company before], the most trusting, trustworthy people. They built the built the hanger that built the 707 on a handshake between Mr. Austin and the Boeing people. After the Boeing people had enough money, then they paid off Austin on a handshake. There’s not a document for the contract. I: Different time-. Alright, how did you wind up in Michigan? V: Well, one of the jobs that I had was that I would come back here occasionally and work on Upshot, which changed to Pharmacia, which changed to Pfizer. I also had a job in South Haven for Wykhoff Chemical. I said, “Oh, this is where I want to retire.” My family was in Roy, Illinois, and my ex-wife up and left the family and she was no where to be, she’s in Oregon. So, I wanted to be within three hours driving time. I also like to hunt and fish, so I would look at different places. Everywhere I went, I never went to the bars, I always had my boat along with me, and South Haven was the place. 01:24:12 I: Now, to think back at the time you spent in the Service, how do you think that affected you? What did you take out of that? V: If it wasn’t for the time I spent in the Service, I would have never achieved what I have achieved. I: Well, you’ve got a good story, so thank you so much for taking the time to share it today. V: Okay, thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_ThatcherB2131V Title A name given to the resource Thatcher, Bruce (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-06-20 Description An account of the resource Bruce Thatcher was born in Berwyn, Illinois in 1941 and grew up in the Chicago suburbs. He tried college and did not do well, and found work as a surveyor and enlisted in the Army in early 1963. He hoped to train as a surveyor, but after basic training at Fort Knox, he was sent to Fort Sill, Oklahoma, for artillery training. He did well enough in training and then on duty at Fort Sill that he was promoted quickly and put into Officer Candidate School. From there, he was assigned to the 18th Airborne Corps at Fort Bragg, went to jump school, and served with a target acquisition company. He went to Vietnam in July, 1966, and was assigned to the 1st Cavalry Division, based at An Khe in the Central Highlands. He worked in fire direction control for the 1st Battalion of the 77th Field Artillery, and later was assigned to C Company, 2nd Battalion, 12th Cavalry Regiment as a forward observer. He served in Vietnam for a full year and saw a good deal of combat, mostly in small unit actions scattered across much of the middle part of South Vietnam, earning a bronze star in an action in early 1967. He completed his tour later that year and returned to civilian life and to college, where he did much better in part due to what he had learned in the Army. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Thatcher, Bruce Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a0db85737e00ffb02f80331489aca36c.m4v e5c26ebb6dcff7374c46b9fe888e9c7d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d9b33d6daf8cdbc15e6adbe490166682.pdf f8f885dea00e4683f2a12def82126be1 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Grand Valley State University Veterans History project Interviewee‟s name: Kevin Yeomans Length of Interview: (01:17:25) Date of Interview: November 16, 2017 Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Madison Vander Lugt Interviewer: “So we're talking today with Kevin Yeomans of Jenison, Michigan, and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. I start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and when were you born?” I was born in Grand Rapids on September 30, 1986. I stayed in West Michigan for my childhood, moved around a bit. Comstock Park, Grandville, Wyoming, Kentwood. Interviewer: “What was your family doing for a living when you grew up?” My mom did daycare out of our home pretty much my whole life. The only time she took a break from that was when she was pregnant with my sister and she worked for a company doing some secretarial work. I grew up with the house full of kids and always running around and playing so yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, was your father around, or?” Nope. Interviewer: “Not there, okay.” Single mother… Interviewer: “Just your mom and doing all that, okay. Where did you go to high school?” I ended up going to high school from Grandville and that's where I graduated from in 2004. Interviewer: “Alright, now what do you remember about 9/11?” �Oh man that's…that for me will definitely be something I'll always remember. I mean, I was sitting in... I can't remember if it was my freshman year or my sophomore year. Okay, I was in German class and the principal comes over the intercom and you knew something's up right away and he's like, hey everybody please turn on the TV, go to the news, and like he...news comes on, there's these burning buildings, there‟s smoke billowing out and I didn't know much about the twin towers before then. Um, but just that was definitely a huge, huge moment. Cool, kind of just ground to a halt, you know? You go home and talk to my mom and I was only 11, 12...13? Somewhere around there. I didn't really understand the whole significance of everything. I knew it was big but I didn't understand all of it. Interviewer: “Okay, so when did you graduate from high school then, it was..? (00:02:33) 2004. Interviewer: “2004, alright. At that point had you decided you were going to go into the military or how did you wind up going in the service?” Uh, for me growing up the military was definitely always an option; my great-grandfather served in the Navy during WWII. My grandfather, he served in the Army kind of in between Korea and Vietnam. He served in Germany. He always had great stories to tell. Um, I realize now that he had great stories to tell because he was in a different era of the Army. Interviewer: “Right.” And then between that was just my cousin and I would always talk about growing up. So then the time came, would have been, would've been my junior year. I kind of said like this is where I want to go. I just, I wasn't a good student at all in high school. Um, so my seventeenth birthday I was in MEPS. Sign the paperwork and then my whole senior year, just like ready to get done and go. Interviewer: “You were in maps?” Uh, MEPS so Military Entrance Processing…I can't remember what the acronym was. Interviewer: “So basically you're going at this point, you're taking the test, or...just preparing so that once you graduate then you go in?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay. Now, why the Army?” (00:03:50) �You know. I looked around, I never looked at the Air Force, but Marine recruiters never seemed to be there. It was just different mentality and I thought it had really come down to the Navy and the Army. And then my grandpa had served, my great grandfather had served in the Navy and my grandfather's experience in the army that kind of attracted me to those two. But like I said, I wasn't a great student, I didn't really want to do more school, and that's kind of what the Navy recruiters were pushing. Like, hey so you can come work on nuclear electric reactors. We'll send you to school for the next four years in the Army. I'm like, I want to be an adventurer. I want to be on the ground. They're like, we can do that. So they gave me what I wanted, and that's kind of why I went there. Interviewer: “Alright, so where did they send you for basic training?” Uh, Fort Benning Georgia. Yup, so I did the one station unit training. So instead of doing, because I was infantry, so instead of doing basic training and then another separate training for whatever my specialty was. It was just 15 weeks of getting yelled at and tired and and physical. Interviewer: “Alright, now the whole basic training process is something that's familiar to people of older generations but not necessarily to new ones. I mean, you see things on movies or television here and there so take us through that. What actually happens; you arrive at Fort Benning and what do they do with you?” (00:05:06) Oh goodness, so I got to Fort Benning…I kind of start like leaving home. I remember being thrown up to the security station, saying goodbye to my mom and then…I still wasn't nervous. I still knew the recruiters and knew all that but then bus comes, picks you up and it could be to Lansing or Detroit but I don't remember where. Maybe I'm mistaking that for when I went to Lansing to sign up too. It's been awhile since I've thought about that. Interviewer: “[But they brought you to the airport and walked you down?]” I don't really exactly remember how I got out of Michigan but I remember getting to Atlanta and then Drill Sergeant showing up to pick you up. And like by that time, by myself really served probably the first time in my life really off on this journey by myself. Drill Sergeant come pick you up and they're not mean, but they're not friendly at the same time. They're slowly getting you used to like what it's going to be like. Then you get brought to Fort Benning, sitting there in like a processing center for, I don't remember if it was couple days or for the couple weeks now. And then get to start to know a few guys and then you all split off and go to your training units and then get to your training units and get off the bus there. That's when you start getting really yelled at. �Interviewer: “Okay. So what does the actual, take us through the training process. Would they do it in sections with different things or was it all rolled together pretty much for you?” (00:06:45)` Um, I mean it was definitely like different events that stick out but it was just kind of a progression. I think the biggest part is getting there, getting used to the guys, and then you start slowly getting to know the different things. Then they slowly add another thing like like, okay you've been carrying around this empty rifle for so long, let's go to the firing range today and use it and start to get used to some of those things that are. But just slowly pulled in new things and try to build that unit cohesion, understanding how things work. (00:07:22) Interviewer: “Okay now were you down there in the summer?” Um, I would‟ve been there in the fall. Interviewer: “So you had a few months after you finished high school before you actually report for duty.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Alright, now what kind of physical shape were you in when you went in?” Better than I am now but not as good as I was. I think when I graduated high school I was probably a hundred and sixty pounds, scrawny. And then by the time I got out of basic training, definitely much better shape, put on some weight. I want to say I was probably around 175. So definitely had some muscle where before I was, didn't have much. I could run but that's about it. (00:08:04) Interviewer: “Alright, and how easy or hard was it for you just to adjust to the life of the Army?” Um, I don't really think it was too hard. You know, in the beginning just I opened myself up and said here we go. Um, especially when you're lower enlisted, I mean. You get told where you got to be and you got one uniform to wear. So as long as can show up on time and do what you're told, you don't have to think a lot until you start getting to, you know, other situations and things. (00:08:34) Interviewer: “Alright, now what size unit were you training with; about how many guys were with you?” �Oh goodness um 40, 50 maybe. Interviewer: “Okay, so basically a platoon that you're with. Alright, now among that group, were there people who had a lot of trouble?” There was definitely a few guys that, I wouldn't say a lot of trouble, but definitely came from probably rougher backgrounds than I did and that kind of pushed back on some things and had a little more adjusting to do than I did. Interviewer: “Alright. Now, what level of discipline were they exercising at this point? I mean, you have the stories of, you know, the older eras, you know, that started beating people up and doing all kinds of things like that. I mean, through what level of discipline was really being exercised there?” You know, I think I grew up watching the movies and seeing the Full Metal Jacket and different things like that. I don't know it wasn't, it didn't seem like it was that tough. As long as you did what you're told, showed up, woke up, shaved your face. I never had too many difficulties with it but, I mean, there were separate conversations had when somebody was screwing up. You know like, hey, it's 3 o'clock in the morning and we're still up because of you. We're going to make sure that we adjust.. Interviewer: “Okay, there is that kind of group discipline thing that goes on and you make the other guys - kind of toe the line through it. Okay, so now over the course of your 15 weeks here so what kind of main things do you spend your time doing? (00:10:18) I mean, exercise every morning, training, studying. I feel like the beginning part you had some more classroom stuff for your just getting to learn some of the language. getting to some of the weapon systems, learning basic patrol base techniques, how to set up a patrol base, how to especially how to walk strategically so if something does go happen you don't all die at once. Um, just kind of just pulling in really basic knowledge on how to be an infantryman. Interviewer: “Okay, now the time you're doing this you knowing we were already in Iraq and in Afghanistan did you have a sense of any of that training was sort of geared toward those places? You know, with basic training it was really just basic [reference] task, you know, like how to not be an idiot. You know, keeping your head on a swivel. You know, how to work as a team so that when you showed up to your unit you weren't completely useless. �Interviewer: “Okay, alright. so you get through the training part now what do they do with you? For me, after the basic training period got done I went to airborne school. So that was four weeks long and that was still in Fort Benning, Georgia. Interviewer: “Okay, now, what does that actually consist of?” That was definitely a nice little reprieve; you had a little more freedom. Could leave base after training was done but it was still pretty similar like show up, doing your exercise in the morning, and then for the first few weeks you go to a hangar and they start.to teach basic task of essentially alright if your parachute goes out this is when you pull your reserve and this is how you do a parachute landing fall and kind of basic task and then, I can't remember if it's the last week or the third week that you start doing jumps, but then you get to go up in the airplane and jump out of an airplane. (00:12:23) Interviewer: “Did they do a thing where you were jumping off of the tower or something like that in between because I feel World War II thing…” They still had the towers, we didn't get to do that. I can't remember if it was, I think it was broken or there was something of the day we were going to do it, if I remember correctly, the weather or something was off. so it was like well we're not doing it this time like we're just going to the airplane. Interviewer: “Alright, so what was that first jump out of an airplane like?” Oh man, I don't remember if it was my first time jumping out. I was, I never remember being nervous. I was more excited and I think one of the memories that sticks with me the most is there's only one jump and it was while I was in airborne school that I got to be the first person in the door and you're sitting in the door and you're just a ball of energy and you're looking out and you're looking down at the ground and you can see the ground but you're still somewhat separated from it and it's exhilarating. So like, I couldn't tell you if I got slapped on the butt, or if I just heard the word “go”, if I saw the green light go off, or what it was, but I just remember Like looking and then all of a sudden like I'm out the door and there you go. And then you see the parachute kind of tug open. While you're 800 feet up in the air our basic training was probably a little bit higher. it would seem like it would take a while but there's so much going on in the air that just like, alright don't run into that guy, don't run into that guy, get rid of your rucksack, alright am I tangled. And before you know it, you're hitting the ground. (00:13:48) �Interviewer: “Alright, now, were there problems with people getting hurt when they landed?” Uh, for our basic training we did have a woman die, so. Interviewer: “Wow.” Yeah. That was a tough one. and we had a few guys that kind of stepped out after that. But never heard the final word on the investigation on what happened, if she had gotten a cigarette roll with her parachute; so if her parachute was deploying, if something happens, so if it just kind of, but still a streamer. She never pulled the reserve. So yeah that kind of halted for the rest of that day and then the thing with the military is, I mean the mission has to go on. So the next day those of us that continued were back in the airplanes jumping out again. I think it was like the first time in 20 years that somebody had died in airborne mission. (00:14:46) Interviewer: “Okay, so now you get through all of that. Do you now get assigned to a unit or do you have other training or what happens?” No. After airborne school I was done. I got sent to my unit. I got sent to the 82nd so that was one thing that when I joined up I wanted to do it and wanted to jump out of airplanes. It would be, everybody's, well most people have heard of the 82nd and the 101st airborne and stuff like that. But I didn't have a slot so, um, kind of go back. I remember there's me and one other guy in basic training that had to compete for that slot. I'm thankful that I got it. My knees and my back aren't so appreciative now, but. it was, I mean, it was a different mentality at the 82nd. Interviewer: “Now isn't parachuting kind of an obsolete skill? I mean does the military still use it very much?” I don't know if I'd say obsolete. I mean, I never did a combat jump. I know there's like one or, I shouldn't say numbers. I know there were, there was at least one combat jump that happened in Iraq to secure airfield. I mean it's just a matter of, you know war is definitely changing. You see 101st is a lot more of the, the fast roping things like that, but I don't know. You can definitely see it being abused, be able to get a ton of guys, you know, to an airfield in the middle of somewhere where you can't get ground troops there right away. (00:16:11) Interviewer: “Okay, but in the meantime, when you're with the 82nd, which particular unit within the 82nd were you assigned to? �So I was with, now I'm going to forget my Company now that I got to say it, but I was with the, I believe it was with Bravo Company 2/505, so the 2nd Battalion 505th Parachute Infantry Regiment. Interviewer: “Alright, now when you go and join the units, what kind of reception do you get?” Again, it wasn't like what I expected, you see the movie, you get the hazing. That might have been cracked down a little bit, but I don‟t know. But I wasn't welcomed with open arms and hugs and high fives but this is your unit, you get dropped off standing at the CQ desk, and I can‟t remember what that acronym means at the top of my head but you're standing there waiting and they take their time to come get you. I can‟t remember if it was my squad leader or my platoon sergeant that came and got me. I‟m guessing it would have probably been my squad leader, comes gets me, starts showing me around. People will look at you and they look you up and down and kind of measure you up and move on. Don't say hi, here‟s your room, here‟s your roommate, this guy is going to square you away, you know, you be at formation the next day, whatever that is. (00:17:30) Interviewer: “Now what was the unit doing generally, or was its assignment at the time that you joined it? Was it just in-base hanging around, or?” Yeah, so with the 82nd...I‟m probably going to mess things up. It‟s been awhile since I‟ve said it. There was three different training cycles; there was division ready force one, on which we were on call. So one of the things of the 82nd is we could be anywhere in the world in 24 hours. so there was always, I can‟t remember if it was a brigade or a battalion that was always on division force one. So those were always a tough few months because you‟re not supposed to go anywhere, you‟re not supposed to drink (we never drank), and just be ready to go. And then you had a heavy training cycle where you‟d be out in the field a lot and doing missions and training, whatever that may be. And then you kind of have like a slower few months where either you‟re going home on leave or you‟re doing some classroom training or doing some other maintenance stuff within the unit, things like that. (00:18:32) Interviewer: “Okay, now, had your unit before you joined it, deployed either to Iraq or Afghanistan?” Yeah, I‟m trying to remember what the last deployment was before I got there, but there was definitely, some of guys that I had served with had gotten deployed both to Afghanistan and Iraq, I don‟t remember the time frame. I know a couple of my buddies had gotten there at the tail end of the Afghanistan deployment and then had deployed to Iraq…? �Interviewer: “So there were at least some people who had been someplace at that point in the unit.” Yeah Interviewer: “Now, do you think they had gone as a unit or had they been in other units and then just reassigned to your Battalion?” There was definitely a lot of guys that had been in that unit. There was a few that had come from other units Interviewer: “Alright, so now you're with them and then, now, where is the division based?” (00:19:28) So that‟s going to be Fort Bragg, North Carolina. So Fayetteville which, I don‟t know if a lot of people know of Fayetteville, but I think it's relatively in the middle of North Carolina. Interviewer: “So there's not a whole lot of built-up stuff around it otherwise.” No Interviewer: “It‟s a very large base, it‟s got a lot of space. So, now when you're doing the training, is this where you're doing a lot of the practice jumps and this kind of things? Is that a regular thing to do or do they do that just occasionally?” Yeah. I feel like we did a jump every few months to stay proficient. by the time I left the 82nd I had 15 jumps. Yeah I remember getting back from. getting back from Iraq and if you hadn‟t had 15 jumps before the deployment, they were making you do remedial training. So you had to go through this whole like month-long course. So I just squeaked by that I had to go and mess around with that. (00:20:26) Interviewer: “Alright, now, so in that period there, you‟re at Fort Bragg for like a year or so before you deploy?” Yeah Interviewer: “„Cause you go in in „04 and you‟re taking the rest of 04 to train.” Yup, so I got to my unit sometime in „05 and then we deployed in August, September…? Yeah so fall time frame of „06. �Interviewer: “Okay so you got. you‟re still there at Fort Bragg, so what was daily life like at Fort Bragg during that period?” Daily life; I mean, wake up at six, some days you‟re still drunk, some days you‟re hungover. Usually still pretty tired no matter what it is. And you go down, get in formation, do your morning routine and then usually off at around, usually ran every day and then come do push-ups, sit ups, maybe a rough march, whatever it may be. Go back, cleanup, eat breakfast, report to the Headquarters, and then see what the daily tasks were and then go out from there. With the 82nd, when we were in the, when we weren‟t heavily training, I mean, a lot of times we were out there, out of work fairly early so we could go, hang out, relax and then that way when we were in division ready force one or in the heavy training cycles, the men, the guys with families were able to spend some time with them. And then took the younger of us that didn‟t have families were usually started drinking. (00:22:14) Interviewer: “Okay, now was that on-base or off-base, or? Were there clubs on base that enlisted men go to? There wasn‟t really any clubs on base that we went to. I‟m sure, I mean there was the officers‟ club and things, but I mean, we usually just drank in the barracks or we‟d go off post and there's a few little watering holes that we liked to go to. Interviewer: “Okay, now were you paying any attention to kind of what was going on overseas or keeping track of where or when you might go somewhere?” (00:22:44) I figured we‟d just get told, I mean. You know, I was lower enlisted so I just did my job. I showed up in the right uniform and, you know, made sure I had my hair cut and looked the part, and just did what I was told. And they would tell me when I was going to go and what I needed to do. Other than that, I just… Interviewer: “Alright so how much in advance of the deployment do you get notified that you're going to go?” So before our deployment they had told us that, “Alright we‟re going to deploy”. So we kind of started getting ready, then right before we had a leave scheduled, they said, “Nevermind. It‟s cancelled, it‟s off” So that wasn't surprising. Before we deployed to Iraq, we had actually deployed to New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina so that's kind of what happened then, they‟re like, “We heard the news that this is happening. Word came that we might go.” So like we were going and then we‟re not going, and then we‟re going again and then we‟re not going. And the news says we‟re going, so like “Hey, we must be going”. (00:23:53) �Interviewer: “Well, talk about the Katrina deployment. So you go to New Orleans after the hurricane, so what did you do there? What did you see?” So for Hurricane Katrina, that‟s definitely another one of those memories that will stick with me for awhile because I had, I haven‟t told my wife this story yet, but I had met a girl, I had gone when I went on leave, one of my buddies from New York had met a girl. So she had come down because we had a four-day weekend scheduled. We were going to see if this was something we wanted to explore or if it was something that “it was nice to meet ya” but she had come down, got there early Friday morning so we help my buddy move and we kind of have the night to ourselves, kind of talking, getting to know each other. Get the call in the morning, “hey, get to work „cause you‟re on division ready force one. We are deploying to New Orleans.” Alright so we grabbed our bags, we go. We‟re gone all day Friday and we have our bags packed. I remember building the pallet of our rucksacks and things like that and watching some of my buddies getting on the airplane to go to New Orleans and sitting there with a couple other NCOs and [things like that]. You‟re just sittin‟, waitin‟ and we‟ll be on the next plane to go. And all of a sudden we see these guys coming off the airplane and we get a call like, “hey, get the rucksacks off. We‟re not going. So we roll back into my buddie‟s apartment late that night, I can‟t remember if it was 11 or 1. So I potentially come home, see this girl, talk for a little bit and the just pass out. And, again the next thing, I mean the next day I think it was like we start doing some things, like. “hey, get back into work, we‟re really going this time.” So that time we really did go. Packed our bags, got on the airplanes, got to Hurricane Katrina. One of the things they kept telling us was like, “Make sure your rucksacks are full of water like we don't care if you got enough clean underwear but we don't know how much good water there is. We don't know when we'll get clean water.” So we‟re carrying around, I mean, ginormous, heavy rucksacks, load up on the plane. As soon as we get off the plane to get to the airport there is just pallet upon pallet upon pallet of clean bottled water–so we were prepared but thankfully we didn‟t have to like ration our water for the next couple weeks. Got from the airport, shuffled around. Ended up getting put up on the Coast Guard base there in New Orleans. Somebody pointed one of our guys, like “that‟s” your building, clean it up, make it your area. So we spent the first couple days just making the area where we could live. Potentially just set up some tents and “alright, this is where we‟re going to live for a while” Did that for a few days, and kind of did the hurry-up and wait for them. We‟re sittin‟ there for a second like alright, now what are we gonna do. Then finally we got connected and like “alright, we‟re going to go out on missions. We‟re going to hook up with…” I think we ended up hooking up with a couple Coast Guard guys. And they keep telling us “don‟t get in the water, the sewage. Don‟t get in the water.” So I remember at that time they had made me a temporary radiotelephone operator for my platoon sergeant. So I‟m following him around, we get the little rubber, zodiac boats. Get that in the water and Coast Guard guys jump in and start pushing it away from the little, low island of actual dirt we had and I look at him cause we‟d just been told for days “don‟t get in the water” he �looks back at me and just goes *shrug*. Starts walking in the water so we got wet right away and then just ended up patrolling on boats for that the first part of the day. (00:27:54) Interviewer: “So what was the point of all that?” We were going out and just looking for people that were stuck in their homes Interviewer: “Okay.” Saying like “hey, we can get you back to dry land and we‟ve got some stuff set up. Some people were like “thanks but no thanks” and then I remember there was a couple other people that we were able to get back and get to dryland get some aid. End of that first day, I remember there was a guy and his dog that we got and that one stuck out for me that day. But, just kind of looking around and, I mean you‟d see just houses flooded. I remember one that will stick in my mind is there was like a wrought iron fence where somebody had left their dog that it looked like the dog had been trying to squeeze through and had got his hind-end stuck in the fence and drowned that way. There was definitely things like that but then after the end of the first day, I mean kind of soggy and wet and tired. We‟d load the zodiac boats back on the trailer and we had one last one to go, bunch of us trying to get it on top of the stack. We couldn't quite do it so I go around the back of boat and I push up and I was just, a wave of the sewage water washes over me. It‟s in my mouth and you're like oh man, but thankfully I was one of the first guys to get shower. I was probably 1 of 2 guys that got shower that night. And then we slept the night, and then kind of went back after the next day. Just kept going through, seeing if we could help people. Another memory that will stick in my mind for that day, or for that week is, I‟ll tell a sad one first and then I‟ll tell the happiest one. I remember going into the, not the Superdome or whatever it was, a big coliseum… (00:30:00) Interviewer: “Well Superdome was yeah that‟s what they used as kind of a big concentration area.” So yeah I remember walking in there, and that it smelled rancid. It was...it looked like a different country. It looked like something you wouldn‟t see in America. I remember seeing like dirty diapers there's crap on the wall, human crap on the walls and there were blood smears on the walls, there‟s like rotting food. It was like something you‟d see in a horror movie. It was just, whatever went on in there wasn't good for those people. So by the time you went through there, it was emptied out, and they had been brought to other aid shelters. And now that I‟m talking about it I‟m remembering more and more memories. So like we went through there, there was nobody still in there, we got out as fast as we could. On another patrol, I mean, one the reasons we were brought in was because of looting and things like that. So, you know, we weren't walking around with loaded guns, but kind of, we were prepared if anything did happen. So we‟re walking �around; we've got our uniforms on, got our berets on, we‟re walking. We‟re not walking in a group, but we‟re walking like a military unit. So there‟s a guy here on this side of the road, a guy here on the other side and staggered the whole way down. I'm in the middle with my platoon sergeant and I‟ve got this huge radio on with a huge antenna sticking out my back. And we start walking up to this checkpoint and I‟ll never remember, I mean I'll never forget, this cop like sees us coming like puts his hand on his gun and like “Stop! Who are you? Stop! Who are you?” and my platoon sergeant looks at me this time and is like “Is this guy serious?”. He didn‟t say that out loud but he kind of looks at me and “We‟re with the Army…?” and like the cop puts his gun away then he gave us, he gave my platoon sergeant and I a little tour of New Orleans and it was one of the most surreal moment of my life. So we‟re driving through and trying to get the lay of the land and he‟s like “Here's this statue” like giving us a tourist like of so-and-so jazz musician and like “Oh, there's the dead body” and keep driving on and kind of just weird stuff like that. It was just tourist things you know like “oh, we got somebody here” and very weird experience. So we got done with that. went back home at the end of the night and kind of just went through that grind over and over again. (00:32:47) Interviewer: “So how long did you stay down there?‟ Months, three weeks? I'm not sure on the time frame. It‟s one of those moments in my life where it's just like the days kind of blended into one another so there's different moments highlighted but I couldn‟t tell you if we were there for...we were there for more than a week but If it was two weeks, three weeks, a month, I don't know. Interviewer: “So you were keeping pretty long days and you're out there walking around a lot so you get kind of pretty well worn out. And did you have, I mean Coast Guard station, did you have actual bunks and things to sleep in or were you just..” No, no bunks they just gave us a little place where we could set up camp and where we set up camp. Interviewer: “And there you were, alright so you come back from that and how much of a gap was there you think between that deployment and actually going to Iraq?” I feel like that was pretty quick turnaround, I mean, I feel like we got back, kind of got a few things done and started to prepare to deploy. So yeah we got back Floyd [?]. “ Hey, you‟re deploying” then getting ready to go home, “oh you‟re not deploying” So I‟d go home, come home. I got my nipples pierced and like “Oh, we‟re not deploying!” Seemed like a great idea at the time. Interviewer: “Okay.” �Um call all my friends, family, tell them I‟m not deploying. Get back to base...oh by the way, we really are deploying so not going to have a fresh wound going into a foreign country so took the nipple rings out, called my family and friends, said “hey, we are deploying some time within the next few months.“ (00:34:38) Interviewer: “Alright, so now what is the actual deployment processing? Do you go anywhere else to train or to prepare you for being in Iraq first or did they just load you up at Fort Bragg can send you overseas?” Oh yeah. We went down to Louisiana to do, I can‟t remember the acronym they used for it but we went down there for like a month and did some training and that was more focused on the situation in Iraq so got some guys that were recently back and talking about different things on like how to look for IED 's. You know, trying to set situations to get used to the different culture which, I mean, you can‟t get used to it until you‟re there but getting used to people walking around and women walking around with their faces covered and just different things like that. Interviewer: “Okay, so there is some [special] orientation or something because you really haven't had any specialized training at this point that was geared toward the Middle East.” No, not especially. I mean like as a weeklong training course a lot of that's just, you know, the guys that been there already trying to teach us what they've learned and building that unit cohesiveness and just. You know, our training activities were definitely more geared towards what was going on in Iraq but, there's nothing like we did in Louisiana before then. Interviewer: “Okay, now do they have people who were sort of playing Iraqis or whatever? Did you get the practice encountering civilians or things like that or were they just telling you about that stuff?” No, in Louisiana they do, I mean...you're interacting with civilians, but I mean, it‟s just another private dressed up in , you know, different type of clothing. So, I mean, some of those guys that were playing the civilians hadn‟t actually been there, so they‟re, you‟re doing your best to create the situation and, you know as best as you can. (00:36:40) Interviewer: “Alright, so now what's the actual process for getting into Iraq?” Get on a plane, fly, I can‟t remember if we stopped in the states, but we flew to Germany, layover there. Get back on the plane; we‟re only there for a hot second. They didn‟t want us there for too long. Back on the plane and then flew into Kuwait. Fom Kuwait we took some tour buses. I can‟t remember...I remember getting on the tour buses like driving through Kuwait and you‟re trying to �take as much as you can in; there‟s light and it‟s dark. But then like driving through the desert on these tour buses and nothing the pictures I‟ll look at occasionally, but we got stuck! Well you‟re driving through a big beach so like this big tour bus gets stuck in the middle of the desert. We all pile off the tour bus and we just sit there and wait till another tour bus comes to pick us up and hopefully that one doesn't get stuck. I don‟t remember how long that trip took but eventually we got to where we needed to be. And yeah, I can‟t remember if we...I doubt we took the tour buses all the way to Tikrit but there's a gap in my memory between the tour bus and how we got to C.O.B. Speicher. I don‟t know if we got into another military base and took a quick flight, but that sounds right. But eventually we ended up at C.O.B. Speicher in Tikrit. Interviewer: “C.O.B. Speicher?” Yeah, command operating base…? Interviewer: “Okay.” Goodness, i don‟t remember what the acronym actually stands for. Something operating base. Interviewer: “Okay, command operating base makes some sense; it has a “c” to start with. And now, were there other units based there that you were joining or was this kind of you were taking it over or what was the deal?” So C.O.B. Speicher was actually a really big base. It‟s actually an airfield, an Iraqi Air Force or Army airfield before the war so it‟s pretty built up. There was all sorts of different units there, but for my company, because we were so far spread that our company was detached and attached to an artillery unit. We‟re not really using, well at that time we weren‟t really using a lot of artillery in Iraq so we were kind of tasked with being the infantry unit for that whole area of operations and doing our best to train the artillery guys on, essentially how to do more infantry tactics. How to, you know; do route secure, how to do security for high-value people and yeah, that‟s kind of what we were tasked with for that area. I don‟t remember the name of the Artillery unit we were attached to but that was a pretty big base. (00:39:45) Interviewer: “Okay so are you going off the base a lot and into the surrounding area, or are you staying on the base, or what's happening?” No, we definitely tried not to stay on the base; too many rules. But we did a few different things. There was the provisional (00:40:05] reconstruction team that was working with the local government and local officials to try to build some stability and structure and then also to negotiate like, this is my understanding so it might not be perfectly clear, I didn‟t get told everything, but “We‟ll give you this money but it's for this” and then kind of following up and �doing our best to make sure they use the money for what it was given to them for. And this would kind of build relationships. And then, for that we just, we‟d convoy out of the base, bring them to the governance building, set up a perimeter and then full security for however long they were going to talk to you for that day. Just sit there and talk and try not to be complacent or take your eyes off them, make sure nothing happens. (00:40:55) Interviewer: “How long was the deployment?” The deployment ended up being 15 months, so we were part of the surge that kind of happened towards the end, so we got extended for three months. Interviewer: “So you initially go out there through the surge, hasn't started yet, now was there much hostile activity going on?” In our area it was relatively quiet, I mean there‟s still guys taking potshots at us and trying to blow us up. But, I mean, I feel like our area was fairly quiet for the time we were there. Interviewer: “What impression did you have of the Iraqis themselves?” I mean, what I tell everybody is, I mean yeah there‟s people that didn‟t like us, it's a different culture but, you know. I am more than. more positive than ever that 98/99% of people, all they want to do is, you know, put a roof over their heads, feed their kids, and have their kids lead a good life. I mean, that was most people that I ran into over there. There was definitely, it's a different, very different culture. Different level of there‟s very open corruption. I guess just... they don't try to hide it very much. And, wasn‟t healthy to become the police chief. I know one of the guys that we were working with at the time got killed in his driveway and like the guy before him got killed in his driveway. There was Iraqi police checkpoints where there was times we would find an IED and we‟d find the wire and we‟d go follow it back and “Oh, it‟s an Iraqi police‟s little checkpoint box” and “Oh! we had no idea!” or it‟d be a house that was 50 feet from where they were stationed, [sure he didn‟t] (00:42:43), so I mean there's mostly good people but there is also some different stuff. Interviewer: “Okay, well did you see much of the Iraqi military or are they someplace else?” Yeah, we did do some interactions with the Iraqi military. One of things is after, I don‟t remember if it was three-months, I don‟t remember if it was six-months into our deployment, but we lost some of our friends. So what we did is after that was one of the areas that we were operating in, to secure the area more, we set up a patrol base. And that patrol base ended up being in the Iraqi Army compound. So they gave us an old warehouse that we set up shop in and then we just kind �of worked with them to do security and do different training missions. That was definitely a big part of our goal was to train these guys so they‟re confident and competent and could kind of takeover their own stuff. (00:43:43) Interviewer: “Okay, and how did that go?” It was a mix. You know, it came, coming from our unit in our military where it was more established and there‟s a different level of discipline. I mean, I don't, it seems like there was some guys that were in the Iraqi Army that were just there because there's no other jobs. There definitely wasn‟t the same level of discipline but there were also some really good guys. The name escapes me at the time, but one of the colonels in the Iraqi Army that we work with was really solid dude and was trying to build it up and like both were kind of men that we looked for to hopefully build on what he was able to do and keep getting them stronger. Interviewer: “Now would you do a lot of patrolling in built-up areas or towns and villages or were you a lot in the countryside, kind of where were you?” I was both so I mean Tikrit was definitely a bigger city and we did definitely patrolling through there and then on the other side of the river there was, I‟m not going to say the names right but Ad Dawr and Hujamah [?](00:44:53). They were two little smaller towns. I don‟t...I think Hujamah was a little bit north and that was kind of, seemed almost like an apartment block and then you got Ad Dawr to the South which had...was more like a small town, small city kind of feel but there‟d be other times where we get some information they say like “There‟s this bad guy out here, gotta go check these houses”. So I‟ll never forget that we had a really good Lt that prior to this said “Yeah, that was really solid”. I remember sitting there and like getting ready to go somewhere and our Lt would point like we gotta go that way. You‟d look that way and you‟d see nothing but desert so you‟d end up driving for “x” amount of hours and all of a sudden you‟d come up to this little compound that seemed to be in the middle of nowhere and go knocking on doors. Yup so there was definitely a good mix of being in the city to being in the middle of nowhere. Interviewer: “Ok so just as to reference, “L” “t” refers to lieutenant?” Yes. Interviewer: “Ok so he‟s your platoon leader basically?” Yup. �Interviewer: “Okay and then we go ahead and we‟re knocking on doors. So you're searching houses, you‟re trying to find somebody?” Yeah, so there‟s, I mean there was two kinds knocking on doors that we did where we‟re actually knocking on doors and talking with people or other times where we would do a raid where we were kicking in their doors cause we suspected, you know, some bad guys were there. (00:46:22) Interviewer: “And were there rules for how you went about doing that?” Yeah, there was definitely rules of engagement, so I mean, I served with good guys who didn‟t want to kill anybody unless we had to. So I mean, that‟s the thing, you never know how good your intelligence is. So I mean, there‟s times you‟d be, you‟re going to these homes, I mean, so sometimes you have to be thoughtful because you're going to a home with these kids. There‟s definitely one house in particular I remember going in and the front of the home had this big metal door. So whenever you‟re going to do a raid on a house you want to be in it quick before they know you‟re there, but we didn‟t get in that house very quick. So we got a sledgehammer and a crowbar and hit the door and *gong* like the whole neighborhood had to be awake. So like by the time we got in the house, everybody's just on high alert. We get in to the first room and there‟s one of the older ladies of the house that‟s just, she‟s losing her mind crying, you know she thinks there‟s someone there to take out her family. So we see her and then out of the corner my eye I see somebody come out of her room or something like that so turn and there was just a kid there so I‟m like “What the heck is going on?”. So I mean, you always had to be careful when you did something like that. (00:47:52) Interviewer: “Okay if you're going to a place where you‟re not breaking down the door, what was the procedure? If you actually knock on a door and expect someone to open it, what was going to happen or how would you behave?” Usually for those kinds of ,missions I was more on the periphery like watching, making things happen. Interviewer: “Okay.” It would be my lieutenant with our interpreter that would you know, go knock on the door the interpreter would talk with them and then just like “Hey, we‟re looking for these people or we‟re looking to do this…” you know trying to build some relationships. A lot of the stuff that Iraqis would've been done more through, like groups. So they have the sheikhs (00:48:40) that are overseeing like a group of people. That was really key if you could get the sheikh on your side and work with them. You‟d see a lot less roadside bombs, you‟d see a lot less people shootin‟ at �ya whereas the U.S. (00:48:55) in particular is very friendly that you‟d be a little more laxed on, you know, making sure people weren‟t tryin‟ to kill ya. Interviewer: “Alright and so during the time you were there, there were parts, there were areas in Iraq where there was a lot of violence and there were a lot of IEDs, there was a lot of trouble and Al Qaeda resistance and things like that. And that brought on sort of the whole surge strategy and the idea and principle that involved having small units kind of going out in the community and staying out in the community and securing different areas which would expose you to more attacks but also directly confronted enemy fighters. But another piece of that was also figuring out who the local power brokers were and connecting with the sheikhs and trying to give them things that they wanted in exchange for their help. Now in the area that you were in. how did the surge strategy play out? What aspects of that did you see?” (00:49:50) For us, I didn't see a lot of change. I think we were kind of already doing that so we didn‟t see any more units come into our area at the time but definitely was, you know, it was a lot of work with the local government like, “Hey we‟re nice, we‟re not trying to rule over you. Don‟t blow us up, please.” You know, what are your problems? Just like you said, if we could avoid getting blown up or doing anything like that we really try and do that. So yeah, that was one of the reasons we set up the patrol base too was we realized that being on C.O.B. Speicher we were on the other side of the river and there‟s this whole, you know, whole other area that we had to go into and be a part of that we weren‟t [...] (00:50:36) on the ground, we couldn‟t do security. Just getting over to that area took a day because we drove slow. You‟re not driving at 80 miles an hour, you‟re driving at like 25, 30. So we set up that so we could be in that area and be a part of it. (00:50:51) Interviewer: “Now did your unit take any casualties while you were there?” Yeah, we lost my one buddy that was coming back from the patrol base back to C.O.B. Speicher one day. We were just driving back, saw some different IEDs, some of our guys got out of the trucks, followed the wires back to the shack and just all of a sudden you just hear this *boom* and he was gone. We had another guy that had just got to our unit. He actually shipped over to us in Iraq, I mean he was maybe eight-, he had to be eighteen if he was deployed with us. He‟ll never be the same. He‟s not dead but he‟s not himself anymore. So that was a tough one. He was a kid too that never felt like talking with him and talking with some of the other guys that were with him on the rear deployment, the guys that stayed back to make sure we‟re getting everything we need and stuff they squared away at home. It seems that he was pushed by his dad to go in. So like his dad pushed him, he wasn‟t like “Oh, I‟m ready and happy to be here”. Good guy, would've been happy to serve with him for years but you know for him to be in country for �like maybe a week and that's it. You know, that‟s something that‟s tough to talk about. I‟ve talked about it a few times it's gotten, I don't break down crying anymore but that‟s something I‟ll remember for the rest of my life. That‟s something that pushes me to be better so. Interviewer: “But, on the whole were incidents pretty rare, were you actually hit, or would you hit IED 's that wouldn‟t do very much damage or did you just not get that many?” We definitely got a few, I couldn‟t tell you all the numbers. Personality, I was blown up three times. There‟s definitely a couple that stick in my mind that happened to me personally. One was I just got back from mid-tour leave and we were driving down the service road and, I was driving, and we hit an IED. You know, thought I lost another friend. Thankfully, he was alright. We didn‟t lose anybody but by that time in the war and where we were at we were driving around a normal, small tank. The Humvees had so much armor plating added to them and A big glass armor windows that we could take a lot of damage. But yeah, I remember “Chris, Chris, are you alright?” and finally he‟s like “Yeah” and just... *gestures / sigh of relief* He was fine. Interviewer: “So the IEDs those would normally be while you were in vehicles they would go off or would you get any even while you were on patrol?” We didn't, I mean, we lost my one friend because they had dismounted but a lot of the stuff we‟d hit would be set up to get us on the roads when we were driving. One thing that we had talked about, the Louisiana training, and one of the questions they ask is how would you identify like what would be out of place and I‟d say “well, trash on the road”. And they- I remember the guy stopping us and saying like, “In America, yeah you‟re not going to see a lot of trash in the roads. If you see like a big garbage bag or something it can be out of place. In Iraq, that's not going to be the case”. And it‟s true, I mean, there was trash all up and down side of the road so it wasn't as easy as saying, “Oh, like hey, there‟s this bag of trash, what could that be?” It was, you know, there could‟ve been a pile of trash that was already there that they put something over and the roads had been blown up so many times that there might be a pothole that was fixed and you're used to it. Well, they might pick it up and put a new bomb in that hole and then all of a sudden, “Oh hey, they‟re blowing us up, again”. I don‟t know if I answered your question fully. (00:54:54) Interviewer: “Yeah, so basically there is a certain amount of stress or tension there whenever time you go out. There‟s a prospect that something could happen even if most of the time it doesn't. But you said you got blown up three times so were you just in vehicles that got hit with IEDs each time?” Yeah. yeah the second time, the other time that I really remember was I would‟ve been in the gun. We were driving back after a night raid. Driving back to base and then all of a sudden just...I don‟t remember �hearing the noise. I remember all of a sudden being pushed back and like not being able to see for a second and you‟re like, “What in the hell just happened?” And then I was in the rear of the truck so like I‟m trying to get my gun back in working order in case you're going to try to start shooting at us next. You know. trying to get the gun going, we‟ve got a flat tire, it just happens like that. You know, I remember thankfully we were in the armored humvees because we get back and there‟s a piece of metal that was probably about *gestures* that long and about that thick that was stuck in the glass that had it been a little bit higher, had it been going a little bit stronger, I wouldn‟t be here talking to you today. Interviewer: “Okay aside from IEDs did you, I mean, actually have much other kind of enemy contact or was it just that or did like...were you ever in a base, for instance, that got hit with a mortar round or anything like that?” I mean C.O.B. Speicher was so big that when we were there...if it happened it usually wasn‟t close to us. Patrol base never really got hit. The one benefit of being the only infantry unit in the area was that the guys there are paying attention and watching. So I think that they realize like who was a well-trained infantry and who were the artillery guys. So I mean, they didn‟t seem to mess with us a lot that we had a different mentality that if you shot at us what we were going to do next. I remember the one day that we did kind of have like a little ambush or whatever set up on us. I‟m sittin‟ with a gun in the Humvee and we‟re just doing our normal routine; check in at the different checkpoints and I making a jelly cracker, and we got another guy out pulling security. So I‟m like going to get this ready and snack on it while I‟m watching and get my jelly cracker ready, sit down, my seat breaks, bust my butt and I was kind of sore, trying to like rig up my chair again so I can sit. And I had my little swing or whatever you want to call it and the next thing you know you hear shots coming in and you‟re like “Alright, what‟s going on?” At that moment it seemed like it took a while but same time it's almost over and done. That was the day that we had, I don‟t remember what the guy‟s rank was but, he hadn‟t been outside the wire too many times so he‟s out taking pictures and kind of wandered off by himself a little too far and he got saved by his body armor. That‟s one of the things that we had received before going over, with some little side pouches that protects us and he got hit right there. Another guy we were with, frickin‟ fool, ran out and dragged him back so thankfully neither of them got killed. But yeah, just little stuff like that. Usually they pop shots at us. (00:58:33) Interviewer: “So there was an individual sniper and then fire a couple of shots and then vanish or would you get a more...did you ever get a more extended firefight at all or…?” No they never took us on head-on, I mean, they couldn‟t have. Interviewer: “Okay, now you said that you‟re there, in principle your deployment would've been at most a year, like normally?” Yeah, it‟s supposed to be 12 months. �Interviewer: “Yeah, okay [we know the deployment] (0058:59) gets extended, what‟s the response in the unit when you find out you're staying?” I mean, we weren‟t happy about it but it wasn't a complete morale killer. I think the toughest part were for the guys who had families. They had gone on leave really early. So I had a buddy that, we had only been in country like 3 months before he took his leave so I mean he‟s going to go a year without seeing his wife and kid. That was really tougher for me, I didn't have, I mean I had family but I was a single guy and no kids waiting on me so. And I was one of the last people to take leave so I kind of take the risk on the other end. I mean, I think I was only supposed to be in country three more months by the time we left with them. It worked out for me because I took it at the end so. Interviewer: “Alright, now did you have a sense that you were making any progress or did things seem to be the same when you left as they were when you got there?” You know, as lower enlisted, I didn‟t see everything. Hopefully we made a difference in some people‟s life but it‟s going take more than us staying there for a few months or a few years. And It‟s If we‟re trying to change something- If you want to do big things, it takes a big amount of time. Like we talked about with the surge, to win hearts and minds and to become a part of the communities, can‟t do that here. So I didn‟t feel like we made some big changes. I think we helped hopefully add some stability for hopefully the good people that were in the area to start cleaning things up and put some infrastructure in but, I mean It‟s just you can‟t build relationships in just a year. Especially when they‟ve seen it for the last six. They know that you're going to be gone in “x” amount of months and then somebody else is going to come in and they‟re going to have to restart the conversation. Started to make a big change doing things like that. (01:53:00) Interviewer: “Alright, so now you‟re finishing your deployment kind of late in „07; now how much time did you have left on your enlistment at that point?” So we got back in November-ish and I think I had about a year, a year or so left on my enlistment. So, got back, I was thinking about reenlisting. I enjoyed the infantry, I enjoyed jumping out of airplanes but at that time I realized there was more I wanted to do. I wanted to do some more, thinking kind of stuff, looking at military intelligence or whatever that might be. So I was in the process of getting my security clearance squared away, I found out “Hey you‟re being shipped off to Fort Hood”. I tried to protest. So the difficulty there is I didn‟t want to go. I wanted to start this next phase of my career, but if you decline an order they would‟ve let me stay but then I couldn‟t have reenlisted. So I tried to like “Well I don‟t have the required time”. You‟re supposed to have like two years left on your contract or something like that, and they‟re like “Oh, we‟ll waive it, don't worry about it”, like “okay” so off to Fort Hood I went. And then that's when I realized that, I mean, there‟s a lot of good guys that serve there and I don't want to diminish them or what �they‟ve done but there was a different mentality in the 82nd. There was a different level of discipline and the things that I saw that when I got to Fort Hood that, just my time to be done. Interviewer: “Now what unit was Fort Hood?” That would‟ve been unit of the First Cavalry. I didn‟t get too attached, by that time I was just disillusioned. I realized this wasn't going to be the rest of my career that, you know, I was just a cog in the machine. It‟s a great thing the Army has a overall huge organization that‟s hard to run but it just wasn't for me and I was ready to be done. (01:03:09) Interviewer: “Alright, now let‟s backup again a little bit. Are there other incidents or memories or impressions from the time in Iraq that kind of you...stand out for you that you haven‟t brought into the story here yet?” Oh goodness, no that‟s the one thing, like sittin‟ here today like when we talk about New Orleans or things that kind of you remember then talk about Iraq there‟s different things. There's always different war movies and things like that and I remember seeing Jarhead after I had deployed and not the greatest movie but there's one moment where he‟s talking about his time deployed, the character, and he‟s like “ It‟s like 99% you do nothing and then there‟s just 1% of just craziness” And that‟s exactly what it‟s like, you‟re just...there's so many days and hours and time for just sittin‟ in the middle of the desert staring at nothing I felt like and then there‟s these brief little moments of craziness that get highlighted. You know, there‟s good moments and bad moments you can know the guys that, for me it was all guys that served next to. You know, you‟re sharing memories and you know, just doing little things. Whether it‟s you know, you found a way to sneak a little booze into camp and you know you‟re having a drink and you‟re trying to let loose a little bit but not too crazy and also not get caught so you don't have a whole, you know searchlight on your unit. Just little moments like that. (01:04:39) Interviewer: “What kind of, actually something we should‟ve gotten into earlier, what kind of living facilities do you have, I mean when you're on C.O.B. Speicher for instance? You know are you setting up barracks or things like that or were you just sleeping in bags, or…?” Oh man, by the time we got to C.O.B. Speicher, that place was a resort. They had a Burger King and a whole bunch of other junk that you could go to. A big ol‟ chow hall and that was always nice coming back from our month-long patrols and our whatever it would be and you‟d come back in dirty and you‟d have this chow hall guard telling you you can‟t come into the hall because you‟re dirty. You just look at him like “We will roll through you right now”. We‟ve been out for a week, we‟re dirty, nasty, we understand it but we‟re hungry. We could roll through the chow hall and you‟d get pizza, chicken, and whatever the hell else you wanted, that was definitely a resort. �You‟d go back to, they call them CHUS, I don‟t know if I ever knew what that acronym was, something housing unit. There‟s like a single, wide trailer split in two and three guys were in a half and it had air conditioning and then one of the guys I served with, he was from Guam. So that's definitely a tight knit community that we were able to...I say we, I just followed him around and carried stuff. Santiago, went to some of his family that had been prior [?] deployed. We had a satellite hooked up so we had some TV and we had an Xbox like that was, that was not a hardship duty while we were at C.O.B. Speicher, but then when we did our time out in patrol base Woodcock that, that was definitely a warehouse where we had some showers and we had to, you‟d lose water pressure sometimes. So like you‟d lose power because somebody in the power plant was trying to give us grief. So then our lieutenant would call up to the company command and this company commander would call up and somebody would have to go out and give the guys at the power station a little trouble. (01:06:41) Interviewer: “Did you have contact with home? Did you have e-mail or Internet or anything like that?” Oh yeah, when we were on patrol there on C.O.B Speicher they had a little phone hut set up so we could call and there were Internet stations but because we had Santiago's connections that we had little satellite Internet in our room. Wasn‟t always fastest but I mean you‟d do some emails and certain things like that. I can‟t remember all the different lower restrictions and I don‟t remember emailing a lot while I was over there. I'm just, I think that‟s something they kept a pretty tight lid on just for security reasons. Interviewer: “So little different world from one that involves written letters and that kind of thing” Yeah. Interviewer: “Alright, anything else out of the Iraq period that you want to bring into the story?” No, I think, you know, the biggest things that I wanted, you know I look at and I talk with people about Iraq is that, you know kind of like I mentioned that this long-term change and its a lesson I learned in my life that if you want to do big things you got to dedicate a big amount of time. No matter where we‟re at in the world, there‟s good people. I mean there‟s very few people that want to go out and murder, kill, and massacre people and rule the world. I truly believe that there's good people and that's how we‟ll make a difference is by building those relationships, having those conversations and building a better world. (01:08:11) Interviewer: “Okay, so now we‟re going to go back. So you‟ve gone, you‟re at Fort Hood, you‟ve basically decided, okay I'm going to get out. I guess one other thing there was when �you come back from Iraq, do they do any kind of debriefing for you or do they talk to you at all about transitioning back to being in the states? Or do they kind of just bring your back and leave you to your own devices?” It's a little bit of both. They get back and that‟s one thing they talk about, especially to the guys that had been deployed and then had successful marriages that watching out for the guys that had deployed for the first time. That they've been through it and watching out because you don‟t have to deal with, there‟s a lot of stuff you don‟t have to deal with when you‟re deployed. You don‟t have to deal with the kids crying so like, making sure that those guys are doing well and that's not necessarily like big Army but that's just the guys in your unit taking care of each other. You do get kind of put on a month lock down where you‟re not supposed to go on leave or anything, keep everybody pretty close to home. There‟s a couple times I almost got in an accident, even after I'd been home for a while because when we were in Iraq, we owned the roads. We weren‟t ever going fast but, stop line didn‟t matter. We‟d put on our sirens and you‟d stop or you stopped. So there‟s a couple times that I come up to an intersection, quick, brief, make sure nobody's coming, all of a sudden I blow through a red light. There‟s a couple times that I had some close calls. They try to keep you close to home and give you that chance to kind of reintegrate but there‟s nothing like the one step programs just like you‟re here, you're staying close until this time period. (01:10:00) Interviewer: “So once you decide that you are going out and you're not reenlisting and so forth, is there an exit process?” Yeah, there‟s definitely lots of red tape. Just had some good friends that had kind of told me beforehand like, you‟re going to have times where you get your records and you got to bring your records from one place to the other. before you do that make a copy for yourself because it's if you talk to other men and women that have tried to get their military records or health records from the military after they‟re out, it's an absolute nightmare. So you get given this checklist, you go to this briefing and then you just start checking stuff off a list; turn in your old uniform, turn in your rucksack, check and somebody signs off. You just walk around with your little folder and go “Here you go”, sign, check, okay I‟m good. Like, oh I gotta do this, Just go through the whole rigmarole. There‟s that one day really, the one last stamp and put it down and they stamp it and like, “yay, I‟m free!” Interviewer: “Alright, so what do you do after you get out?” (01:11:06) For me, I got out of the military „09. I got in my Jeep and I drove straight back from Texas. I had a friend come down and ride with me but just straight trip back home to Grand Rapids, Michigan. Got back and my original plan was to kind of take a second. I was fortunate that I had not used all of my leave so I got a good chunk of change from that and had saved up a little bit of money. I was going to take some time off and go to school right away. That didn‟t happen because I got �home and at the time I was 23, all my friends by that time are either finishing up college or with their careers so it wasn‟t like before I left where it‟s like “Hey, its Tuesday at noon, you want to go do something?” You know, I‟m sittin‟ there living with my mom going “do do do do doo” (melodically) and started ended looking for a job and I end up working with DT energy, so the gas company here in Michigan. I worked for them in Muskegon doing meter reading and loved the job. I would've stayed there for the rest of my career there; good guys, good company, they took really good care of me, but then ended 2010. That‟s when I found out about that post 9/11 G.I. Bill. So that kind of got me to go back to school. It was still a tough decision, you know, like knowing that I would‟ve had a good life but the post 9/11 G.I. Bill with them paying tuition directly to the school, giving me a book stipend and giving me a housing loan, so I didn‟t have to worry about going to school full time and working full-time. Went back to school. That would‟ve been 2011 that I started. Started off at Grand Rapids Community College, figured things out there again and then started at Grand Valley in 2012, 13, whenever that was. Graduated from Grand Valley in 2015 and then that's when I was a student there is, they pushed me to do internships and ended up doing an internship at the March of Dimes and that‟s when I figured out that‟s where I needed to be was in the nonprofit sector. I loved...the part about the army that I really loved was service and that's what I found being back in nonprofit sector so that's what I do now. I work for nonprofits and I raise money so we can do great things. (01:13:31) Interviewer: “Alright, now you had mentioned that you had not been a particularly good student in high school and things like that. Did you become a better student somewhere along the way or how or when does that happen?” Yeah, I think definitely realizing that, you know, the plans I had in high school, that‟s not tough. I mean, that definitely helped a lot. Like I've been through things that will serve me for the rest of life that I can just be like, meh, it‟s not so bad. I‟ve got a roof over my head, my bills are paid, and I‟ve got food in my belly, so I‟m doing alright. I think the military was definitely a big part for me in those experiences I had. You know, I had a lot of good guys that pushed me to do good things, in the military and outside. So I think for me, going back to community college kind of helped me figure it out. You know, I thought, “I'm 24, I know what I'm going to do.” I didn‟t have a clue what I was going to do going back to college, so that gave me time to figure out. Didn‟t have the greatest GPA leaving community college, but then going to Grand Valley, they allowed me to start over with a fresh slate. That was kind of my moment of realizing where...you know, when I joined the military, there was always the option that I could come home, when I joined DT energy there was always the option that I could quick go back or do something else, well now after having my life experience in being at Grand Valley there wasn't like...if Grand Valley doesn't work out I can just go back and work at DTE. Like. I could try and get back in there but there was no like, what's next. Like, I've fully dedicate myself something. So having that realization then having my experience of like, “This isn‟t so bad! You show up, you write some papers and you just pay attention and do what you need to do.” It‟s not so bad. (01:15:21) �Interviewer: “So some of...so you are taking things out of that Army experience that you now get to apply in the rest your life or at least gives you that sort of perspective on things.” Oh yeah, there‟s days I hate to admit it, you know, there‟s kind of the...I don‟t know what the right word for it is but the stereotypical guy, “Oh when I served…” you hear those guys when you‟re in and you‟re like, “Yeah, sure”. Now I‟m to that point now I'm like realizing all these things I learned about working for a company, setting strategy, setting goals, staying focused and kind of how to organize, and sometimes just little things that I don't realize. One of things that when I was in was I was always required to carry a notebook and pencil with me. Well now that I‟m back in the corporate world and you talk with people when you‟re out and about, stuff comes to you at random moments, having a notebook and a pen, and sometimes its a cell phone now, it serves you well and you don't lose track of things. So there's things big and small that I‟ve taken from and sometimes I'm like that guy, “Well when I was in... “ or “I learned this from the Army” and it‟s like, it‟s a fine line. Interviewer: “But it really did make a difference in terms of helping you become the person you became.” Yes Interviewer: “Alright.” That‟s one thing that I've talked about to some of the younger men and women that come and ask me questions is, there's guys that I served with that came in saying, “The Army will change me” and that‟s not, the right mindset is “The Army gave me the opportunity to change myself. I was able to leave home, I was able to break out of that box that was already built around me” and say like “Who do I want to be?” and “There's all these people that don't know me so I can be this man” and that's the greatest expenses that I‟ve been able to take away is, I was able to become the man I wanted to be. Interviewer: “Alright, well thanks for good stories and thank you very much for coming in and sharing.” Thank you, Jim. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_YeomansK2172V Title A name given to the resource Yeomans, Kevin (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-11-16 Description An account of the resource Kevin Yeomans was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan, in 1986. He enlisted immediately after high school in 2004, trained as an infantryman at Fort Benning, Georgia, and was assigned to the 82nd Airborne Division at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, and served in B Company, 2nd Battalion, 505th Parachute Infantry Regiment. His unit was scheduled for deployment to Iraq in 2005, but first took a detour to New Orleans to help with relief work after Hurricane Katrina, where they spent several weeks patrolling flooded areas and then providing security in the city. Not long after returning from that assignment, the unit deployed to Iraq and were based at COB Speicher near Tikrit, where they conducted patrols and searched houses for al Qaeda supporter. They took some casualties from IEDs and snipers, but saw no major firefights. The unit returned home in 2007 after 15 months in the field. Yeomans was eventually reassigned to the 1st Cavalry Division at Fort Hood, Texas, and was discharged in 2009. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Yeomans, Kevin Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Iraq War, 2003-2011--Personal narratives, American: United States Army Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/898e88600db780511f057cebb6df1412.mp4 2f3424984d81c738af9126b58028c22b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d31f05491f6e9b19c856a54a925723d9.pdf 71cac5d62b7bc2d03239b1a5ae08a611 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project William Van Luyn Part 1 World War II Interview Length: (02:15:28:00) Pre-enlistment / Training (00:00:14:00)  Van Luyn was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on May 22nd, 1925; Van Luyn lived practically his whole life in the northeast end of the city (00:00:14:00)  Van Luyn’s father had moved from New York to Grand Rapids to learn about the furniture industry in the city and worked at several furniture manufacturers around the city until the Great Depression hit (00:00:33:00) o Once the Depression hit, Van Luyn’s father was out of work like everyone else and had a tough time scraping along, like everyone else (00:00:53:00)  Although he was young during the Depression, Van Luyn remembers a lot of what his family went through (00:00:59:00)  Van Luyn’s father eventually managed to find work through the WPA (Works Progress Administration) (00:01:04:00)  Before having to look elsewhere, Van Luyn’s father was so good at running all the machines in a furniture factory that when the owner of the factory had to lay everyone else off because of the Depression, he only kept Van Luyn’s father (00:01:42:00)  Van Luyn’s father finished up any random orders that the factory still had and once those were gone, the factory owner asked the father if he would work as the night watchman (00:01:57:00) o Van Luyn can remember going with his father to the factory and staying overnight (00:02:11:00)  Eventually, the Depression became so bad that the factory owner had Van Luyn’s father help board up the windows (00:02:34:00)  Later on, the factory owner stopped by the Van Luyn’s home and said he had received a phone call from a furniture factory owner in Gardner, Massachusetts who needed someone to run all the machines, so Van Luyn’s father went to Massachusetts (00:03:16:00)  Van Luyn’s father would send his paycheck from the factory home every week and took a small night job at a store to pay for his room and food (00:03:33:00)  Van Luyn’s father stayed in Massachusetts until Van Luyn’s younger sister was going to be born, then he came back (00:03:43:00) o As the start of World War II grew closer, Van Luyn’s father was able to get a job working at Metal Office Furniture, which later changed its name to Steelcase (00:04:07:00)  Van Luyn’s father worked second shift and was able to ride a bus from his home to the factory; however, when he would get out at 2 a.m., the buses were not running and he would have to walk home (00:04:16:00) �    At the time Van Luyn was going through school, high school started at 7th grade; he was going to school with older guys almost as big as his dad, which made him feel like a little ant (00:05:12:00) o Van Luyn liked sports, so as soon as he was old enough to play, he did; his parents did not want him to play football because he had already broken his left elbow twice (00:05:42:00)  However, he finally convinced his parents to let him play football and in tenth grade, he played for the junior varsity; however, instead of breaking his elbow, he broke his leg (00:05:58:00) o After breaking his leg, Van Luyn played basketball and baseball (00:06:09:00) When the attack on Pearl Harbor happened, Van Luyn’s family was at home; someone heard about the attack on the radio, yelled for everyone, and everyone gathered around the radio to listen (00:06:19:00) o Van Luyn had three sisters, two older and one younger, and all three were very upset about the attack (00:06:33:00) o Prior to the attack, Van Luyn had not been paying much attention to what was happening with the war; he knew the war was going on but that was the extent of his knowledge (00:06:51:00) o After Pearl Harbor, some of the guys in school with Van Luyn went off to enlist; however, Van Luyn himself was only sixteen, and that seemed like it was a long ways away (00:07:28:00)  The boyfriend of Van Luyn’s oldest sister was called in either the first or second draft (00:07:37:00)  Although some people did voluntarily enlist, either in the American or Canadian militaries, there were not a lot of them (00:07:48:00) Van Luyn graduated from high school in 1943, a week-and-a-half after he turned eighteen years old (00:08:19:00) o Less than a month later, Van Luyn had received his draft notice; he had planned on going regardless and never gave much thought about enlisting or just going through the draft (00:08:29:00) After receiving his draft notification, Van Luyn, along with the other new recruits, were sent to Detroit to go through a physical (00:08:48:00) o At the time, Van Luyn had really bad vision in his left eye; the vision in the eye was practically nothing, only 2400/20 (00:08:56:00) o As soon as the doctors checked his eyes during the physical, Van Luyn was rejected; Van Luyn and the other men who were rejected during the physical were sent home on trains (00:09:06:00)  Whereas some of the men were crying because they had passed the physical, Van Luyn was crying because he had failed (00:09:16:00) o After a week or two, Van Luyn and a friend who had also been rejected went down to the draft board to see if they could go again; although the woman in charge of the draft board said she could not send them for another six months, they eventually convinced her to send them with the next group (00:09:27:00)  Although Van Luyn had a hard time passing the physical the second time, he ended up talking with a captain and explain that he had been hunting for several years and was a good shot (00:10:02:00) �  The captain claimed it was against his better judgment but he would place Van Luyn in limited service; Van Luyn would never go overseas and would either had a desk job or train other soldiers (00:10:16:00) o Van Luyn was finally able to enlist in October 1943 (00:10:32:00) After enlisting, Van Luyn reported to Fort Custer in Kalamazoo, Michigan; Van Luyn spent a week or two at the fort before spending another week or two at Fort Sheridan in Illinois and finally ending up at Camp Ellis, which was also in Illinois, where he began his training (00:10:38:00) o Peoria, Illinois was probably the closest major town to the camp but even it was fifty to sixty miles away (00:10:59:00) o Apart from going through regular basic training at Camp Ellis, Van Luyn also went through training to build bridges and roads (00:11:23:00) o Going through the regular basic training was a little rough for Van Luyn (00:11:40:00)  He remembers going out to the rifle range, which was one of the first things the men did, and they all had to qualify; expert was the best anyone could get, followed by sharpshooter (which Van Luyn received) and marksman (00:11:45:00)  If someone scored below marksman, he had to keep going back to the rifle range until he qualified (00:12:04:00) o While at Camp Ellis, Van Luyn was shocked to see German POWs (Prisoners of War); he had no idea that there were any POWs in the U.S. (00:12:15:00)  The POWs at the camp were crack Nazi troops and they would go on various repair and maintenance assignments (00:12:22:00)  Although he is not sure exactly how many POWs there were, Van Luyn saw between thirty and fifty at a time (00:12:36:00)  While at the rifle range, after Van Luyn’s group finished, they were told to step back; being just out of high school, the men soon started screwing around (00:12:56:00)  The parents of one of the other men were both German and he spoke some German; as the men were fooling around, some of the German POWs were nearby and the man heard them comment about how bad of soldiers the men were (00:13:23:00) o Van Luyn and the other men did not know how to attack or how to march, etc. but the POWs could not figure out how the men could shoot so straight (00:13:35:00) o When Van Luyn arrived at Camp Ellis, he was placed in 3rd Platoon, “B” Company, 1303rd Engineer General Service Regiment (00:13:59:00)  Most of the other men in the company had been in the unit for four or five months by the time Van Luyn and some of the other new recruits joined; this meant the new recruits had no chance of attaining a higher rank within the company (00:14:11:00)  Being in a General Service regiment meant that although the men would deploy overseas, they would not serve in a combat zone (00:14:55:00)  The men would operate well back from the front lines, buildings things such as hospitals, roads, etc. (00:15:03:00) � Early on, the Engineering Corps realized that if men were to be building things and carrying materials, they needed to be working with men their own size (00:15:26:00)  When Van Luyn joined the regiment, there were six companies, “A” thru “F” plus a non-worker company, and the men were placed into the companies by height (00:15:44:00) o “A” Company only had soldiers who were over 6’; Van Luyn was 6’ even at the time, so he was placed in “B” Company (00:15:59:00)  “F” Company was also small soldiers but they were all tough; the company eventually earned the nickname “The Mighty Midgets” (00:16:07:00)  Every day after training, each of the six companies organized a basketball team and they would play in the rec hall at night (00:16:29:00)  Van Luyn was in good shape and was selected to join the team from “B” Company (00:16:39:00)  During one game, a couple of Van Luyn’s friends ran into the rec hall, said that Van Luyn was supposed to be getting his overseas shots, and the medics were mad as hell that he was not down there because he was the only person in the company who had not received the shots (00:16:51:00) o Van Luyn pulled on an overcoat and ran about three blocks through the snow (00:17:19:00) o The medics gave Van Luyn all three of the shots, he pulled the overcoat back on, went back to the rec-hall, and went back into the game (00:17:37:00) o Thinking back, Van Luyn is amazed that he did not have any sores arms, nausea, headache, etc. (00:18:01:00) o Van Luyn’s company left Camp Ellis early in 1944 and ended up going to Boston, Massachusetts; in Boston, the men boarded a ship, which left Boston Harbor in March 1944 (00:19:27:00) o During the training, Van Luyn’s regimental commander was a “GI Officer” and he wanted the regiment to be better than every other company (00:20:07:00)  Eventually, after the men would complete their basic training for the day, they would have to go on five-mile marches during the night; it was rough for all the men because they were tired and more so for some of the older men, who could only walk a mile or two (00:20:22:00)  Over time, the marches became longer, culminating in a thirty-mile march that the men had to start on a Saturday morning (00:20:52:00)  By the time the regiment returned from the march, Van Luyn figures that no more than 30% of all the men in the regiment actually completed it (00:21:05:00)  After completing the thirty-mile march, the regimental commander told the men that they would have the big march following week and that when they did deploy overseas most of the men were not going to be coming back alive (00:21:20:00) � However, the regimental commander promised that if everyone walked every step in the next march, he would make sure each man was able to go home for three days, regardless of where the man lived (00:21:33:00)  The next hike was to be 125 miles and although the men thought the commander was kidding (they had never heard of anyone doing a march that long), he was not (00:21:52:00)  The following Saturday, the men started out and each passing day was more brutal than the one before (00:22:04:00)  The cooks would always go ahead of the rest of the soldiers and set up in a field where they were supposed to be, so that when the men arrived, there would be coffee and food waiting (00:22:18:00)  During the first night, Van Luyn did not want coffee or anything else; he just wanted to sleep and get of his feet (00:22:26:00)  Van Luyn went to sleep around midnight and at one o’clock, someone was kicking his feet to wake him up; everyone was to get up and fall in because the regiment was moving out (00:22:51:00)  Those men who could get their boots on could not even lace them up because their feet were so swollen and covered in blisters; most of the men ended up having to cut holes in their boots to let their feet spread out (00:23:10:00)  The march took three and a half days and during the last day and a half, the men were walking on their senses; if someone passed out in front of them, the men’s brains would not tell them to stop and they would fall over them (00:23:35:00)  The day after the men returned to camp from the march, the commander made the men fall out and march around the camp, just to show the other units what the men had done (00:24:15:00)  The commander ended up giving the men who completed the march certificates saying that they had walked every step; however, there were very few of them (00:24:37:00)  Ultimately, the commander allowed all of the men, regardless of whether they had walked the entire way or not during the march, to have a threeday pass to go home (00:24:54:00)  Although Van Luyn was glad all the men received passes, looking back, he wonders why he did all the walking if he knew he was going to receive the pass regardless (00:25:02:00) o Once they finished with the training, Van Luyn and the other soldiers were just waiting to receive orders (00:25:28:00)  On many days, the commanders did not know what to do with the men, so they would give the men jobs to keep them busy (00:25:31:00)  One day, a sergeant came around and told the men to fall out, they were going to “police up” the area (00:25:40:00) � o However, it was around the first of March, which meant it was still fairly cold and there was a foot of snow still on the ground (00:25:45:00)  Another day, Van Luyn was walking along the path that had been shoveled to his barracks and there was a package of Lucky Strike cigarettes frozen under the ice (00:25:57:00) o Prior to the war, Lucky Strikes came in a green package but the package under the ice was white; the company had adopted the slogan “green goes to war” (00:26:16:00) o As Van Luyn walked past the package, a sergeant ordered him to pick it up; Van Luyn laughed because he thought the sergeant was joking (00:26:30:00) o When Van Luyn asked, the sergeant told him to do it or he was going to court-martial Van Luyn (00:26:43:00) o Although the situation eventually blew over, from that point forward, Van Luyn did not get along with that sergeant, who always tried to pick on Van Luyn, who in turn picked on the sergeant (00:26:58:00)  The soldiers always pulled pranks on each other (00:27:24:00)  One of the men was from India and he would sleep on one of the top bunks in the barracks (00:27:31:00) o The man was a sound sleeper and one Sunday, while the man slept, Van Luyn and the other men took his bunk off the other bunk, carried both the bunk and the man outside, and left them in the middle of the parade ground, which was covered in deep snow (00:27:38:00) o All the men went back into the barracks and watched as the man first pulled his covers up high, then over his head, and then finally woke up (00:28:01:00) o The man started cursing the others, who went out and carried both the bunk and the man back into the barracks (00:28:21:00) o Although the man laughed once the others had carried him back inside the barracks, he was “madder than hell” while he was outside (00:28:34:00)  There were other pranks involving soldiers going on leave but Van Luyn does not think he can tell those stories (00:28:43:00) On the whole, Van Luyn did enjoy some parts of the six months that he was involved in training (00:28:57:00) o There were men in Van Luyn’s unit from thirty-nine different states, which meant Van Luyn was able to meet some really nice people and was able to make some really good friendships (00:29:02:00) o Van Luyn also liked going to the rifle range and some of the other training the men did (00:29:21:00)  Originally, Van Luyn was assigned to be a rifle grenadier, although he did not know what that assignment was (00:29:25:00) �  Rifle grenadiers fired roughly foot-long rockets from the end of their rifles, so the commanders took away Van Luyn’s M-1 Garand away and gave him a World War One-era M1903 Springfield bolt-action rifle (00:29:34:00)  On order to fire the rocket, an attachment went on the end of Van Luyn’s rifle and he used blank .30 caliber cartridges, which did not have a bullet (00:29:54:00)  During the training, there was an old tank parked on the rifle range for Van Luyn and the other rifle grenadiers to aim at for target practice (00:30:15:00)  The first time he fired the rocket, it scared Van Luyn because the gun powder went into his right eye; because he was blind in his left eye, Van Luyn did not think it was a good idea for him to be a rifle grenadier (00:30:21:00)  Van Luyn went to one of his commanders, explained the situation, and the commander agreed, so Van Luyn was assigned to be a regular rifleman again and was given his M-1 back (00:30:38:00)  Van Luyn was considered a “rough carpenter” and would help construct any bridges that the unit might need (00:31:07:00)  There were several different types of bridges, including the Bailey Bridge, which was built in sections that were extremely heavy and required four men to carry at once, regular fixed wooden bridges, and pontoon bridges, both metal and rubber (00:31:21:00) When Van Luyn did finally go home before going overseas, it was great to be able to go home (00:32:38:00) o Van Luyn remembers he and some of the other soldiers waiting a long time to get aboard a bus when they were anxious to get home (00:32:47:00)  When the men got into Chicago, they waited several hours for a bus; however, the words of the commander, who said it might be the last time the men ever see their family, weighed heavily on the men and Van Luyn remembers looking to see if nearby cars had keys in them (00:32:59:00)  If one of the cars did, Van Luyn and some of his friends would have stolen the car, driven it to Grand Rapids, and left it there; although Van Luyn hates to admit thinking about doing that, he and the other men wanted to get home (00:33:21:00)  As it was, Van Luyn and the other men ended up waiting for the bus, which cost them three hours of their leave (00:33:41:00) o While he was home Van Luyn did not tell his parents or anyone else that it might be the last time he ever saw them (00:33:53:00) Deployment to Europe (00:34:16:00)  After returning to Camp Ellis, Van Luyn and the other soldiers went by train to Boston, where they spent a brief amount of time before boarding a ship and sailing out (00:34:16:00) �o Van Luyn had always suffered from motion sickness, ever since he was a young child; therefore, Van Luyn was not looking forward to the prospect of being on a ship to go overseas (00:34:47:00) o The men spent fourteen days on the ship and Van Luyn became so weak because he was not able to eat anything, apart from a few crackers and a little bit of Coke that the other men would bring him (00:35:43:00) o Van Luyn does not know exactly how long the ship was at sea because it was zigzagging to avoid German U-Boats (00:36:10:00)  Although the ship was part of a large convoy, Van Luyn does not know how many other ships there were (00:36:18:00) o The ship the men were on was the U.S.S. Argentina, which had been a cruise ship before the war that had been converted to be a troop transport (00:36:32:00) o The first night after the ship left Boston, Van Luyn was assigned to guard-duty; although he was still sick, he was not weak (00:36:55:00)  When Van Luyn reported to start his duty, the ship was in the middle of a terrible storm, with waves crashed against the ship, causing it to rock back and forth (00:37:17:00)  Van Luyn knew that if he did not hold on to something, he was going to be washed over the side; however, instead of going to the railing on the edge of the ship, he stood against a bulkhead, grabbed some pipe running along the bulkhead and held on as best he could (00:37:25:00)  Rather quickly, Van Luyn went back inside and leaned against the door so that no one else could go outside (00:37:58:00) o The next day, Van Luyn told some of his friends what had happened and they asked Van Luyn to some them where he had been (00:38:06:00)  When the men opened the door Van Luyn had leaned against, they saw there was a life raft that had had its entire bottom ripped off; Van Luyn figures that had he stayed out there much longer, he would have been washed overboard (00:38:18:00)  Van Luyn remembers telling the man who relieved not to go outside because he would be washed overboard (00:38:39:00) o After a handful of days, the men had a fire drill, which involved all the men getting on the deck of the ship (00:38:49:00)  However, Van Luyn was already too weak to move, so he told the other men to go without him; given where his bunk was located, Van Luyn was relatively sure no one would notice him (00:39:06:00)  Van Luyn did not realize they would do a roll call, so when a major called out his name and he did not respond, the major asked where he was and his friends explain Van Luyn was too sick to make it (00:39:24:00)  The major ordered two of the men to get Van Luyn and when they came down, they explained the situation and helped carry Van Luyn up to the deck (00:39:49:00)  Once Van Luyn got into his position, the major took one look at him and said “soldier, where is your life jacket”; Van Luyn had been using the life jacket as a pillow and had forgotten it (00:40:17:00) �   The major ordered Van Luyn to go back and get his life jacket, which was vital in case there was a fire or the ship was hit by a torpedo and the men had to go into the water (00:40:34:00)  Van Luyn did go back but he was so exhausted by the time he got to his bunk that he had to rest for a couples of minutes before trying to make his way back to the deck (00:40:47:00)  Van Luyn had just made it through the first set of water-tight doors when the major came through the other and said he was just coming down to see where Van Luyn was (00:41:03:00)  Van Luyn became sick at that moment and tried to step around the major to get on deck; however, the major had more to say and stepped to block Van Luyn (00:41:16:00)  Van Luyn could not hold it anymore and vomited all over the major’s suntan shirt and pants (00:41:36:00)  The major then said, “soldier, you really are sick” and the only thing Van Luyn could do was nod his head (00:41:44:00)  The major never held the incident against Van Luyn; he knew Van Luyn could not help what he did (00:42:01:00) o When he was younger, Van Luyn saw the war movies of the men climbing down cargo nets on the sides of ships and going straight into war and Van Luyn figured that was going to be the same thing for him and the other men (00:42:06:00)  Van Luyn was afraid of this possibility because he was too weak to carry his combat pack and rifle (00:42:28:00)  Therefore, when the ship pulled into the harbor in Greenock, Scotland, Van Luyn was very relieved (00:42:38:00) The men were not in Scotland for very long; after they had gotten off the ship, the men were given coffee and donuts, placed on a train, and taken from Greenock to Northampton in England (00:43:04:00) Once the men arrived in Northampton, the men set up six- or eight-man tents in the middle of a field (00:43:36:00) o After they had set up the tents, Van Luyn and a couple other men were told to fall out and get into a weapons carrier, which would take the men and show them what their assignment would be (00:43:47:00)  The three men were taken about a mile away from the camp, to a spot where there was a large cement mixer, and told their assignment was to feed the cement into the mixer; bulldozers would push the necessary dirt over and British trucks would bring in the bags of cement (00:44:06:00)  Each bag of cement weighed around 111lbs and as one man would push the bags from the truck, the other two would carry the bags to a nearby spot where there was a blade sticking out of the ground; the blade would open the bag, which the men would then empty into a hole, which led to an 8in auger (00:44:47:00)  Whereas the other two men were older and developed, Van Luyn was still a skinny kid; although he had gained some of his weight back after being sick on the ship, he still only weighed 150lbs at the most (00:46:16:00) � The three men had to report to next day and as promised, there was a line of British trucks carrying the cement mix (00:46:45:00)  Van Luyn and the two men got into a pretty good rhythm and the work lasted for about a week to a week-and-a-half (00:47:07:00)  The cement was used to build floors for storage areas in a wooded area for mustard gas and bombs (00:47:13:00)  Every time Van Luyn and the other men returned to the camp, they had cement powder stuck all over themselves and their clothes (00:48:05:00)  One day, a colonel came around and said there was mustard gas in some of the drums and that if one started leaking, the men would need to put on their gas masks; to that end, he ordered the men to work for the rest of the day with their gas masks on (00:48:18:00)  The colonel stood by and waited as the three men took out their gas masks and put them on; however, the moment the men had the masks on, the lenses were covered in steam (00:49:05:00)  Soon after, the colonel left and when he did, all three men took the masks off (00:49:49:00) o Most of Van Luyn’s unit did not do anything special in terms of preparing for the upcoming Normandy invasion (00:50:31:00)  However, some of the men were called out for jobs related to the invasion and as with the cement mixer, the men did not know what exactly they were being called out to do (00:50:37:00)  Van Luyn was selected and he and the others were told they were going on detached service, so they loaded onto trucks, which took them to airfields a couples of hours away (00:50:43:00)  The men soon found out that they would be working for the paratroopers in the 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions, who themselves were getting ready for the invasion (00:51:03:00)  Some of the men had to build sandboxes inside a building that were then used as sand maps using small figurines, based on photographs of Omaha and Utah Beaches (00:51:54:00)  Van Luyn himself was put in charge of a small warehouse that housed all the food for the paratroopers (00:52:54:00) o Every day, the mess sergeant would come up to Van Luyn with a list of all the things he would need for the following day (00:53:00:00) o Van Luyn liked the job because he was able to sneak a can of fruit cocktail every so often (00:53:08:00)  Once the men had finished making the sandboxes, a large group of officers went into the building, which the men then wrapped with barbed wire; the men were then given orders that if anyone tried to get in or out of the building, shoot to kill (00:53:21:00)  Van Luyn and the other soldiers took care of everything for the paratroopers so they could focus on the invasions (00:53:54:00) �   The men could tell from the anxiety of the paratrooper officers that the invasions would be soon and everyone assumed that they would be happening on June 5th (00:54:05:00)  When the invasion did happen on June 6th, the men thought it was not a big deal, they had only missed by a day; they did not know that the invasion had been planned for June 6th [originally for June 5, but delayed by weather] (00:54:19:00)  After the invasion, Van Luyn and the other men spent two or three weeks in the area cleaning and taking down some of the buildings (00:54:32:00)  The men were able to get a couple of passes to go into nearby Nottingham (00:54:43:00) In general, the English civilians in the towns did not act real good towards the American soldiers; American Air Corps personnel had been in England for a long time before the infantry forces were stationed there (00:55:13:00) o The men had been cautioned to turn their backs on certain situations and to not get into scraps with others (00:55:32:00) o Although the English girls were friendly towards the soldiers, their parents were less so, although Van Luyn figures he would have been the same way if he was in that situation (00:55:48:00)  Van Luyn remembers that the first day he went into Nottingham, he ended up talking with a couple of girls who were doing defense work in a nearby factory (00:56:05:00)  The girls were from different parts of the country and according to them, it took them three days before they understood what the other was saying (00:56:24:00) Once Van Luyn finally rejoined his regiment, it was not long before the regiment was sent to Southampton, which served as a holding area before units sailed across the Channel to Normandy (00:56:57:00) o While the men were in Southampton, Van Luyn remembers hearing German V-1 rockets, “buzz bombs” (00:57:18:00)  The British tried to shoot the rockets down before they impacted in the cities (00:58:01:00)  The first night the men were in Southampton, a couple of rockets came in in the middle of the night and Van Luyn remembers being woken up by the air-raid sirens (00:58:18:00)  The men rushed into nearby bomb shelters and waited until the “all clear” signal was given, at which point their returned to their tents (00:58:34:00)  An hour or two later, the sirens went off again and the men rushed to the shelters again; although the men could hear the explosions, the bombs were quite a ways away from them (00:58:47:00)  The third time the sirens went up, the men sat up, said “screw it”, laid back down, and went back to sleep (00:59:06:00) �Normandy Invasion / Advance across Europe (00:59:47:00)  When the regiment left Southampton, they sailed across the Channel on the H.M.S. Duke of Wellington and when they arrived in Normandy, they did have to climb down the cargo nets on the side of the ship and get into LCIs (Landing Craft-Infantry) (00:59:47:00) o The men were not attacked when they first landed on the beach; most of the times when they came under fire initially, it was at night and was from the German Luftwaffe (Air Force) (01:00:06:00) o Van Luyn figures his regiment finally arrived in Normandy in the middle to latter part of July, 1944 (01:00:34:00) o When the regiment first landed, Van Luyn remembers seeing a small building which he a couple of buddies figured they should check out (01:01:01:00)  The men pulled the door to the building open and inside was a dead German soldier with a rocket launcher; initially, Van Luyn thought the German was holding an American bazooka but when he looked closer, it saw it was a German rocket launcher (01:01:18:00)  Up until that point, Van Luyn was somewhat naïve enough to think that the Americans were the only ones to have any weapons like that (01:02:10:00) o Once the regiment had landed, the men set about their various assignments, such as repairing roads that had been bombed out (01:02:21:00)  By the time the Allies broke out of Normandy in late July and early August, Van Luyn’s regiment was part of General George Patton’s Third Army (01:03:10:00) o The regiment followed behind the main advance and repaired whatever they could, as well as built a large number of bridges (01:03:18:00)  With the first bridge the men built, the men thought the bridge was fine and vehicles were moving across without much problem (01:03:52:00)  However, it had been raining heavily and in some cases, the rivers overflowed their banks; in some locations, canals ran parallel to the river and when the rivers overflowed, the entire area became a massive river (01:04:02:00)  As towns flooded, empty wine barrels stored behind cafes began floating down the river along with large tree branches and logs, all of which pushed against the new bridge (01:04:21:00)  Eventually, the flotsam was too much, the bridge failed and floated down the river (01:04:48:00)  The men were able to salvage some of the bridge materials, which they recycled to build a new bridge, albeit one that was much higher; from that point forward, the men built the bridges much higher (01:04:57:00) o As the regiment advanced with Third Army, they occasionally came under fire, both from German infantry and the Luftwaffe (01:05:23:00)  As the German forces retreated, they would always destroy any bridges behind them, sometimes destroying only a section and sometimes destroying the entire bridge (01:05:35:00)  Once of the other side, the Germans would set up 88mm cannons, which despite being old, were still very accurate; a lot of times, �the Germans would fire the 88s back at the bridge site not to damage the bridge further but to attack Americans when the Americans arrived (01:05:52:00)  Although the regiment did not have a lot of men killed, the shrapnel from the 88s was still a problem and it was difficult to rebuild the bridges while being shot at (01:06:21:00)  Whenever they would come under fire, the men would either deploy in a defensive formation or call for re-enforcements, although sometimes they did both (01:06:40:00)  Regardless, the men would try to get word back for either the artillery or Air Force to come in and knock the 88s out of their positions (01:06:44:00)  Gen. Patton hated having his tanks sit idle, so he wanted the bridges built as soon as possible (01:06:57:00)  The main worry the men had was the artillery shots or strafing runs would fall short and fail to get over the river (01:07:11:00) o One time, Van Luyn’s platoon was building a small bridge and had already placed the I-beams and had not yet finished the first layer of decking when a jeep pulled up with Gen. Patton in the passenger seat (01:07:54:00)  The general hopped out of the jeep, walked up to the platoon, and said “Men, I have to get across this bridge” (01:08:41:00)  When the men explained that they had not finished the planking, the general grabbed some planks and told some of the men to help him; the men did so and finished laying down the planking, although they did not initially attach it (01:08:52:00)  Van Luyn remembers looking at the pair of ivory-handled revolvers that the general always carried and thinking about asking to see one of the revolvers (01:09:11:00)  Once the planking was down, the general got back into the jeep, thanked the men, and drove across (01:09:34:00) o Van Luyn never went to any of the events or speeches where Gen. Patton was a guest; the incident at the bridge was the only time Van Luyn ever saw the general in person (01:09:49:00) o As the men moved across France, they did have some encounters with the French civilian population (01:10:21:00)  At one point, the men were building a bridge and Van Luyn remembers reading a pamphlet dropped by the Americans that warned the French civilians that there was a German stronghold in the area and the Americans were going to bomb it (01:10:31:00)  Although most of the people temporarily left, some did not and instead went into their basements (01:10:54:00)  One particular building near the bridge sight had been bombed, killing a large number of people in the basement; eventually, the stench from the bodies became too much and the men told French civilians that they needed to remove the bodies (01:11:08:00) �    By the time the French had removed the bodies, the men had already finished the bridge and had moved away (01:11:51:00) A lot of the times, when the men finished a bridge, they had to guard it because the MPs (Military Police) had not yet arrived (01:12:04:00)  One time, Van Luyn was guarding a bridge with another soldier and it was becoming dusk; prior to that, the men had warned the French civilians to be off the street before dark because after dark, the men might mistake them for the enemy (01:12:18:00) o It was not quite dark yet when Van Luyn saw a figure coming across the bridge; having not heard anything from the other side of the bridge, Van Luyn raised his rifle, flipped the safety “off” and said “halt” (01:12:55:00) o The figure stopped and a female voice called out, “don’t shoot, don’t shoot. I’m an English teacher at a French school” (01:13:07:00) o Van Luyn told the teacher to step forward and she showed Van Luyn her credentials (01:13:20:00) o As Van Luyn looked at the credentials, the teacher looked at the ground, where there was a pile of bloody toilet paper from where Van Luyn had earlier cut himself while sharpening a knife (01:13:48:00)  Van Luyn had been unable to stop the bleeding, so he had taken the toilet paper from his K-ration and as one piece would be soaked with blood, he would throw it on the ground (01:13:57:00) o When Van Luyn showed the woman his hand, she said that she would come back and bandage the hand; even though Van Luyn told her not to come back because she would be shot at, she said she would (01:14:08:00) o The woman did come back and bandaged Van Luyn’s hand; when she finished, Van Luyn told her to get home as fast as she could (01:14:23:00) Van Luyn himself never had any encounters with any French women who wanted to get “too friendly”; however, there were other men who did have those encounters and did get into trouble (01:15:03:00) At one point, Van Luyn’s unit was assigned to re-build a bridge and the men knew they needed a crane to remove the damaged parts of the bridge that they could not destroy with explosives, as well as help lay the new Ibeams across the river (01:15:54:00)  As the men drove through a small town near the bridge sight, they realized that they would not be able to fit the crane through the main street of the town (01:16:17:00) o One particular house had a walkway built over the street to the other side, which the family living in the house used to get to a business they owned (01:16:29:00) �  A sergeant told Van Luyn to take a couple of men and to tell the family that the men were going to have to take the walkway off (01:16:52:00)  None of the men spoke French, so when they knocked on the door and a woman opened, they tried to explain what they needed to do; the woman yelled back into the house and more people came to the front (01:17:16:00)  The explanations got nowhere because the family thought they misunderstood what Van Luyn was explaining, so finally, Van Luyn motioned for a truck mounted with an air compressor and chainsaw to come forward (01:17:42:00)  As he started cutting, Van Luyn stopped when he realized that if he cut one end, it was wedge itself in and/or crush the men underneath (01:18:18:00)  Instead, Van Luyn motioned for the crane to come forward and they attached a chain around the middle of the walkway to hold it while Van Luyn cut (01:18:28:00) o Once everything was cut and off, the crane backed up and set the walkway off to the side (01:18:44:00) Prior to the Battle of the Bulge, Van Luyn’s company was stationed in a wooded area near a small town in Luxembourg (01:20:31:00) o At one point, Van Luyn and some other men went into the town and while they were there, an Army truck loaded with gas cans (Jerry cans) drove into the town and the drive asked where another unit was located that he needed to deliver the cans to (01:21:17:00)  Just as the truck went to pull away, Van Luyn noticed smoke coming from the back; Van Luyn yelled for the driver to stop and when Van Luyn told him about the was smoke, the driver that Van Luyn was just messing with him (01:21:44:00)  Van Luyn pulled the driver out and when he saw the smoke, Van Luyn told him they needed to get any civilians out of the area, just in case the cans started blowing up (01:22:04:00)  Once they had gotten everyone back, Van Luyn and his friends, along with the driver, stood back and watched the truck, which had started to burn; as the cans started to explode, everyone back up further (01:22:29:00)  As the men watched the fire, a corporal ran up and said the men needed to pull the driver out; even when Van Luyn pointed out the driver was standing next to them, the corporal continued saying they needed to pull the driver out (01:22:36:00)  The gas cans continued exploding through the night and Van Luyn’s group walked back to the wooded area where the remainder of the company was positioned (01:23:02:00)  Once back in the camp, the corporal went and told the officers how he had risked his own life to run through the flames to pull the driver out and drag him to safety (01:23:16:00) �o The corporal ended up receiving a commendation and a promotion to sergeant (01:23:27:00) o The Battle of the Bulge started soon after and Van Luyn’s company moved out of the area while another unit moved into the woods (01:23:45:00)  Unbeknownst to the men, the Germans had placed a large number of shoemines in the woods but for whatever reason, as they walked through the woods, the men never set any of the mines off (01:24:02:00)  When the next unit moved in, they were not there more than a day before their soldiers started getting their legs blown off (01:24:12:00) Battle of the Bulge (01:24:49:00)  Once the Battle of the Bulge began, Van Luyn’s unit started out repair roads, the main supply routes to the front-line infantry units (01:24:49:00) o The fighting was very intense and as one side would advance or retreat, an area would see more fighting, with some areas being fought over three or more times; in the area where Van Luyn’s unit was located, there was not a tree stump more than 3ft high (01:25:12:00) o When there was a suspicion that German forces would be attacking again, Van Luyn’s unit was used as regular infantry and told to dig in; Van Luyn dug a foxhole that was just deep enough for him to lay in (01:25:27:00)  As Van Luyn laid in the hole, a halftrack pulled up behind him; wanting to be off to the side of the vehicle, Van Luyn got out of his foxhole and dug another one off to the side (01:25:44:00)  Ultimately, the Germans did not attack again and Van Luyn did not have to fire his rifle (01:26:07:00) o A couple of days later, Van Luyn and some other men were walking through the woods when Van Luyn heard voices; he stopped, listened, heard the voices again, continued forward, and recognized it to be female voices (01:26:21:00)  Van Luyn yelled and heard talking in reply, although he could not understand what was being said (01:26:53:00)  Van Luyn and a couple of the other men started clearing away the ground cover and finally uncovered a trap door; inside, there were two women crouched down (01:27:11:00)  The way the women reacted once they were out, someone might have mistaken the men for their long-lost sons or husbands (01:27:58:00) o On a couple of occasions, Van Luyn’s unit was supposed to be the left flank of the entire Third Army (01:29:16:00)  However, one time, the officers either read the maps wrong or somehow became confused because the unit did not know where the American armored and infantry forces were (01:29:23:00)  The men continued advancing forward in their trucks and all of sudden, they spotted tanks positioned ahead of them; however, the tanks were “buttoned up”, which meant they expected to be shot at (01:29:49:00)  Instead of stopping and realizing they were in the wrong place, the trucks continued past the tanks (01:30:22:00) �  As the column continued, the weapons carrier at the front, which had all the officers in it, came under fire and went into a ditch along the side of the road (01:30:52:00) o Although nobody was killed, the men lost the weapons carrier and all their maps (01:31:02:00)  Luckily the tanks were there because once the enemy fire started, the tanks fired back, instantly destroying the enemy positions with a single shot (01:31:08:00) o Quite often, the men traveled in trucks because they were hauling their equipment around as well (01:31:31:00)  Whenever a soldier had to relieve himself, he had to go stand by the tailgate of the truck; however, the tailgate was not very high, so the men seated at the very back would have to hold the belt of the soldier as he relieved himself (01:31:39:00) The largest bridge Van Luyn’s unit ever built was a bridge over the Rhine river into German (01:32:48:00) o One day, Van Luyn was scouting with a couple of other soldiers in a jeep and although they were headed towards the Rhine, they were still quite a few miles away from the river (01:32:53:00)  All of a sudden, there was an awful explosion and Van Luyn thought that the Germans were shelling them (01:33:07:00)  All the men jumped out of the jeep, rolled into the ditch, and laid there, waiting to hear another incoming shell (01:33:14:00)  Eventually, Van Luyn crawled out of the ditch and up and embankment on the other side of the road; at the top of the embankment, he looked down an saw a massive American artillery gun (01:33:25:00)  The explosion the men heard was the sound of the gun firing, lobbing shells twenty-two miles across the Rhine and into Germany (01:33:49:00)  Van Luyn motioned for the other soldiers to come up and they all started talking with the artillery soldiers (01:33:59:00)  As the two groups talked, the artillery soldiers were receiving information from a spotter aircraft about where the previous round had landed, which they then used to adjust the firing angle of the gun (01:34:24:00)  Eventually, the artillery soldiers said they had orders to fire another round, so they told Van Luyn’s men to hold their hands and stand a little back (01:34:38:00)  The gun fired again and the men could see a house about a hundred yards away where the slate roof of the house was sliding due to the concussion of the shot (01:34:48:00)  When the artillery soldiers loaded the gun, they had four men carrying around a trough for the loading, placing first a 100lbs bag of gunpowder in the breech of the gun behind the shell, followed by another 10lbs bag of gunpowder; the shell itself required four men to load (01:35:24:00) �  When the gun fired, it created a perfect smoke ring that just got larger and larger and larger (01:36:17:00) o Once Van Luyn’s unit arrived at the Rhine, they went upstream of the surviving bridge in Remagen that the Germans had failed to blow up and started building another, larger bridge to relieve some of the traffic pressure on the one in Remagen (01:36:54:00)  From what Van Luyn can remember, it only took the unit seventeen days to complete the bridge (01:37:17:00)  The bridge was 55ft high so ships could sail underneath it, although Van Luyn does not remember how long it was (01:37:30:00)  After the bridge was finished, American vehicles were crossing the bridge to the tune of roughly eight thousand a day (01:38:03:00)  Van Luyn remembers that around that time, the soldiers food was taking longer to reach them, so some of the soldiers were pulling the pins from hand grenades and tossing hand grenades into the river; the explosion would stun the fish, allowing the soldiers to gather them up to eat for dinner (01:38:34:00) Once the men had reached and crossed over the Rhine, everything going on around them happened at a much faster pace; at times, the men were not even able to clean themselves properly (01:38:59:00) o The men were strafed a lot by the Luftwaffe while working on the bridges, especially at night (01:39:27:00)  Fearing his tanks standing still for too long, Gen. Patton would send orders to complete the bridges as soon as possible, which meant there were times when the soldiers worked into the night (01:39:35:00)  However, working into the night meant the soldiers had to use spotlights in order to see anything; whenever the soldiers turned on the lights, the Germans would send planes to attack them (01:39:45:00)  Men would be sent to each end of the bridge with orders to fire three shots if they heard any German tanks or soldiers or aircraft; however, the other men were often busy working that they would not hear whenever one of the soldiers fired the three shots (01:40:30:00)  Many times, when Luftwaffe planes spot the soldiers, the pilots would turn off their engines to glide in undetected before opening up with their machine guns (01:40:56:00)  For the most part, the Luftwaffe strafing runs missed doing a lot of damage; the men would scatter as best they could and quite often, the planes would miss hitting anyone (01:41:31:00) o One day, the men were working on a bridge and all of a sudden, they heard a noise coming down the river; however, by the time the men had looked up, the sound had passed (01:42:01:00)  Meanwhile, machine gun rounds and bombs hit the river about half to three-quarters of a mile down the river (01:42:44:00)  The men had no idea what to call the German plane that had passed them but the pilot turned around, brought the plane back, fired at and missed the men again (01:42:58:00) �   All the men scattered and the plane left; however, a couple of hours later, once the men were working again, the plane came back but again, had the same results (01:43:12:00)  Eventually, the men realized the pilot could not be accurate with his weapons, so the four time he strafed them, a couple of the men stood in the open and gave him the middle finger (01:43:38:00)  Although the plane again missed them by a wide margin, that small group of men got in trouble (01:44:07:00) For the most part, Van Luyn and the other men did not do much shoot; mostly, they were shot at by the enemy (01:44:46:00) o At one point, Van Luyn’s unit was stationed Bayreuth, Germany, the town where the famous German composer Richard Wagner had died, and the men ended up staying in the music hall that Wagner had built (01:44:56:00)  The first night the men billeted in the music hall, Van Luyn was outside when a German plane began strafing the area; there was a small trailer about 20ft away, so Van Luyn ran and crawled under that (01:45:16:00)  After the plane finished attacking and left, Van Luyn crawled out from underneath the trailer and saw it was filled with the unit’s dynamite and TNT supplies (01:45:42:00)  The next day, Van Luyn was with a couple of other soldiers out scouting when they saw a couple of German soldiers coming in the opposite direct; the Germans did not see Van Luyn and the others, so Van Luyn and the others were able to capture them (01:46:09:00)  Van Luyn remembers that the music hall did not have very good toilet utilities, so he was given the job of digging a slit trench that night for a latrine (01:46:45:00)  However, when they captured the soldiers, Van Luyn kept one of them to dig the slit trench and sent the remainder back to the music hall (01:46:58:00)  When Van Luyn told the soldier to start digging, the soldier thought Van Luyn was having him dig his own grave; Van Luyn let the soldier think that for a couple of minutes before showing him the proper dimensions for the trench (01:47:26:00) As the war went on, the German POWs (Prisoners of War) who Van Luyn encountered tended to get younger (01:48:25:00) o Often, Van Luyn felt bad because the POWs who he and the other men thought were German were actually Polish prisoners in work camps who the Germans had armed and placed in front of the regular German forces (01:48:32:00)  The Poles were in a precarious situation; if they did not go forward, the Germans were going to shoot them and if they did go forward, the Americans were going to shoot them (01:49:09:00)  Most of the time, the Poles threw their hands up immediately to surrender and would try to explain the situation; although the men knew they were not speaking German, they did not dare trust anybody (01:49:21:00)  A lot of the times, the men stayed in schools because the schools were often surrendered by a concrete wall and many times, there � was the silhouette of a German soldier that the children would throw dummy potato-masher grenades at (01:49:48:00) o This tended to make the soldiers leery of children, out of fear that the children would toss a grenade into their jeep or truck (01:50:12:00) o On several occasions, Van Luyn’s unit built some of the stockades used to house the German POWs (01:50:47:00) At one point, the men were moving along when they saw something that did not look right, a single German bulldozer sitting alongside a large tract of what looked like freshly moved dirt (01:50:53:00) o The men began investigation and eventually found out that the Flossenbürg concentration camp was nearby; although not a notorious as some of the other camps, Flossenbürg did some of the same things (01:51:20:00) o When the Germans knew the Americans were coming, they took all the inmates in the camp out to where the bulldozer had dug the trench, had the inmates stand along the trench, and proceeded to machine gun them down, with the force of the bullets knock most backwards into the trench (01:51:59:00)  Once the corpses were in the trench, the German soldiers had thrown lye onto them in an effort to eat away the flesh (01:52:26:00) o However, the Americans arrived so quickly that the Germans were unable to completely finish hiding the bodies (01:52:36:00) o One of the men in Van Luyn’s unit was a German Jew who had seen his entire family killed by the Nazis but somehow managed to escape and make his way to the United States (01:52:54:00)  Although Van Luyn personally did not like the man, he was useful because whenever the unit entered a town, the commander would take the soldier to the local political leader and have him translate that the soldiers wanted every weapon in the area (01:53:25:00) o A couple of days after they had left Flossenbürg, the soldiers received word that Gen. Patton had sent some of his high-ranking officers into the nearby town with orders to take the German civilians out to the mass grave to show them what the Nazis had done (01:54:49:00) The End of the War in Europe (01:55:27:00)  By the time the war with Germany ended, Van Luyn’s unit had made it to Passau, Germany, a town which served as the unit’s “home base” for a while; while staying in the town, the men were billeted in a large hotel that the American forces had partially destroyed (01:55:27:00) o Over time, the men could sense that the fighting was beginning to slow down, although it did not stop completely (01:56:13:00) o One day, Van Luyn and a couple of his friends were standing in the hotel when a man in a uniform, a well-dressed woman, and a large dog walked past; the woman walked right up to the soldiers and told them to get out of her hotel (01:56:30:00)  When Van Luyn talked back to her, the woman tried to “sic” her dog on him; in response, Van Luyn pulled out his .32 caliber pistol and pointed it at the dog’s head (01:57:07:00) �o Eventually, Van Luyn’s platoon was given orders to cross the nearby Danube river into Austria to build a small bridge that had been destroyed (01:57:58:00) o While still in the hotel in Passau, each of the men’s rooms had a small bed stand and in each of the bed stands was a chamber pot (01:58:36:00)  On the day the platoon was leaving the cross the Danube, the men wanted to take a keg of beer that they had tapped; as the platoon left, one of the soldiers had taken one of the chamber pots, filled it with beer, and was drinking out of it was the trucks pulled out (01:59:11:00)  Although the soldier did not get sick, just the thought of drinking out of the chamber pot made Van Luyn sick (02:00:05:00) o While in Austria, Van Luyn’s platoon stayed in the small village of Rottenegg, which did not consist of much more than a café, a couple of houses, and the river the men needed to build the bridge across (02:00:22:00)  The platoon stayed in the village for about four days and it was there that Van Luyn learned President Roosevelt had died (02:00:42:00)  All the Austrians in the village were worried about who would take Roosevelt’s place because they believed Roosevelt would have treated them fairly (02:01:09:00)  The people who owned the café where the men were staying lived in a house behind the café and staying with them was a healthy young man, but one who was not wearing a uniform (02:01:42:00)  Van Luyn assumed the young man was a deserter and when Van Luyn accused him of being in the Luftwaffe and “bombing New York”, the man waved his hands and said, “just pamphlets, just pamphlets” (02:01:54:00)  There were so few of them in the café that the men only used two guards, one in the front and one in the back and one day, one of Van Luyn’s friends saw a German officer riding a motorcycle (02:02:40:00)  The friend told the officer to halt and get off the motorcycle; once the officer was off, the friend took the motorcycle and told the officer to walk wherever he needed to go (02:03:06:00)  The friend then took the motorcycle, walked a little ways away from the café and covered the motorcycle in brush (02:03:21:00)  One day, the friend came up to Van Luyn and said that an Austrian farmer had invited the friend and Van Luyn to visit and said that he had two beautiful daughters (02:03:44:00) o That night, Van Luyn and the friend walked out of the café, down the road, found the motorcycle, and drove to the farm (02:03:54:00) o As they drove down a farmer’s lane, Van Luyn looked over his friend’s shoulder, he saw German soldiers coming down the lane towards them; Van Luyn told his friend to keep going because by the time they had turned the motorcycle around, they would be full of enemy bullets (02:04:49:00) �  o As the motorcycle got closer, the soldiers separated; because neither Van Luyn or his friend had their rifles or helmets, he suspects the Germans did not even realize they were soldiers (02:05:13:00) o Once they got to the farm, the farmer greeted Van Luyn and his friend and invited them inside, where Van Luyn figures there must have been forty people (02:05:37:00) o As soon as the two were inside, everyone started pointing at Van Luyn, who assuming they thought he was someone else, pulled out his pistol; when his friend asked what he was doing, Van Luyn said they were going to jump him because they thought he was someone else (02:05:52:00)  Van Luyn’s friend understood some German and explained that everyone was just surprised as to how white Van Luyn’s teeth were (02:06:45:00) o Van Luyn and his friend did not stay at the farm too long and on their way back, although Van Luyn was worried about running into the German soldiers again, the did not have any trouble (02:07:11:00)  A couple of nights after the trip to the farm, the men were listening to a radio they had brought from the hotel and an announcement came over that although the war was not officially over, the lights in London and Paris were going on for the first time in years (02:07:43:00)  Van Luyn was standing guard duty and soon after the announcement, a machine gun started firing; Van Luyn remembers laying on the ground and thinking that someone should tell those soldiers that war was nearly over (02:08:07:00) o A day or so after the announcement about the lights, the platoon returned across the Danube and rejoined the larger unit in Passau (02:08:32:00) o Once back in Passau, Van Luyn’s brother-in-law, a Master Sergeant in a field artillery unit, visited him; once the war ended a couple of weeks late, the brotherin-law came back and invited Van Luyn to visit his unit (02:08:40:00)  Although the two men knew they were near each other during their time overseas, they did not correspond with each other but with Van Luyn’s sister and his parents (02:09:07:00)  Van Luyn’s brother-in-law talked with Van Luyn’s First Sergeant, who told Van Luyn he could go and to be back in three days (02:09:17:00)  All the other men in brother-in-law’s unit knew about Van Luyn, so when Van Luyn got to the unit, they all treated him nicely (02:09:48:00) As the war wound down, each of the companies in the regiment organized a baseball team and played games on a series of baseball fields that the men had built outside of the town (02:10:17:00) Eventually, the regimental commander told the men that he had received a message from Gen. Patton saying he was very proud of the regiment and that the regiment had received five battle stars, something they did not know any other units had (02:10:43:00) � o As well, the general had promised that Van Luyn’s regiment would be the first of their kind to be sent home; although some of the men who had not earned enough “points” might not be getting out of the Army immediately, they were still going back to the United States (02:11:15:00) o As few days later, the commander had the men fall out again and said that although what he had previously said was still true, the unit would be returning home the long way (02:11:36:00)  General Douglas MacArthur as preparing his invasion of Japan and he wanted to bolster his forces with experienced soldiers, so Van Luyn’s unit was one of the units selected to take part (02:11:54:00) o When the news came down, Van Luyn really felt bad for the married men in the unit because most of them had resigned themselves to the fact that they would not make it home (02:12:21:00) Eventually, the men boarded trains and were taken to Marseilles, France; however, the journey from Passau to Marseilles took a long time because all of the railroad tracks had been destroyed (02:12:44:00) o The last six cars on the train had all of the company cooks and they would fix whatever food they could while the trains were rolling (02:13:12:00)  One day, the men heard yelling and when they looked outside, they saw that one of the cars were on fire; by the time word reached the engine to stop, the car was fully engulfed and both cooks had jumped out, although neither survived (02:13:49:00) o Although there was straw on the floor to sleep on, there were so many men in the car that there was not enough space for everyone to sleep at once (02:14:47:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_VanLuynW1181V1 Title A name given to the resource Van Luyn, William (Interview outline and video, 1 of 2), 2011 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-08-25 Description An account of the resource William Van Luyn was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1925, and was drafted into the Army in 1943. He wanted to go, and was disappointed when he was rejected due to an eye problem, but later talked his way past the recruiter and sent to Camp Ellis, Illinois, to train as an engineer. He joined the 1303rd Engineer General Service Regiment and was assigned to B Company, which specialized in bridge construction. He shipped out to England with his unit in the spring of 1944, and deployed to Normandy shortly after D-Day. After the Normandy breakout, his regiment followed Patton's 3rd Army across France, building and rebuilding bridges all along the way, sometimes under fire from enemy artillery or aircraft. His unit got caught up in the Battle of the Bulge, and then participated in the invasion of Germany, building their longest bridge across the Rhine near Remagen. Shortly after the Germans surrendered, the unit was deployed to the Philippines in preparation for the invasion of Japan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Van Luyn, William Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ac58c7e3865b5367eb1e86d7aeadae09.mp4 89316ad8ce45e0c69bb2c738b77cbd2d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/619917ac7e9a026cc72aca3c108fbaff.pdf 9b37a71a35e371dfd7e324f01b070379 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Peter Godino World War II 1 hour 1 minute 42 seconds (00:00:15) Early Life -Born in Italy on November 16, 1921 -Came to the United States in 1930 -Father had lived in the U.S. since 1905 -Wanted his wife and children to be with him -Settled in a town in Montgomery County, Pennsylvania -Only spoke Italian when he first got to the United States -Was able to jump ahead three grades -Learned English in only two years -Didn't face any ridicule for being an Italian -Grew up in a neighborhood made up of the descendants of Hessians -Near Valley Forge -Raised a garden during the Great Depression -Had one hog a year they could butcher for food -Helped a local farmer with his harvests -Canned food to eat later -Got along pretty well during the Great Depression -Shoveled snow during the winters and brought the money home to help his family (00:02:25) Enlisting in the Army -Made a decision at a young age to join the military at a young age -A man from his hometown had joined the Army -Came back and talked about his experiences -Impressed Peter and motivated him to enlist when he was old enough -Enlisted in the Army when he was eighteen years old -Went to the courthouse in Philadelphia and enlisted -There was a need for men in the Army Air Corps so he was assigned to that -Enlisted in 1939 (00:03:39) Basic Training -Sent to Bolling Field, Washington D.C. for basic training -Sent there by train -Travelled with a group of seven or eight other recruits -Farthest he'd ever been from home -Had brick barracks and they were starting to build wooden barracks -Not very crowded at the time -Basic training began immediately -Did drills and learned about military etiquette -Who to salute, who not to salute -Food was the best that he had ever seen -First time that he had ever seen pork chops �-Congress would review the base for quality -After two (or three) months he was done with basic training (00:06:11) Duties at Bolling Field Pt. 1 -With his training complete one of his first jobs was to stoke the fires for water heaters -Made sure that the coal fires didn't go out so there was hot water for showers -Worked for twenty four hours on and forty eight hours off -Moved to operations duty -More like a regular civilian job -Pilots would file a flight plan and he would call it in -Worked with six to twelve other men -Worked with older aircraft -Once saw a P-39 come in -Most were being sent to Russia though -Had a P-40 come in once in a while -Always had an interest in flying (00:08:59) Awareness of the War -He was aware of what was happening in Europe and Asia -Read about the war in Europe and Japan's conquest in Asia -Knew that it was inevitable that the U.S. would get involved -Knew that material was being given to England -Stood as part of the Honor Guard when Prime Minister Churchill visited Washington D.C. -He visited in January 1941 -Had to stand there for four hours -Saw President Roosevelt and Prime Minister Churchill together -Knew that England was desperate and needed help -Admired Churchill, but loved Roosevelt -Believes that President Roosevelt saved the U.S. from collapse and conquest (00:12:08) Duties at Bolling Field Pt. 2 -Stayed in operations for a while -Prior to operations he had worked with parachutes -Checking out parachutes to wealthy officers so they could get their reserve time (00:12:58) Pearl Harbor -He was working in operations when he heard the news flash about Pearl Harbor -News came on the radio at 10 or 11 in the morning on December 7, 1941 -Everything was shut down -Restrictions were put in place -Couldn't wear civilian clothes around the base any more -Came as a shock -Knew where Pearl Harbor was because he knew men that had been stationed at Hickam Field -Initially had believed that the war would come from Germany -After the oil embargo was placed on Japan it became apparent Japan would attack (00:14:53) Glider Program �-In 1942 the glider program began in earnest -Took an aptitude test for that and was accepted into the program -Sent to a training field in Wisconsin for primary training -Flew a solo flight on a powered aircraft after seventy to eighty hours of powered flight -Flew a solo flight on a glider after forty hours of glider flight -Flew in Piper Cubs -Solo flew for six hours -Goal of the gliders was to carry troops into combat without needing an airfield (00:16:29) Gunnery Training and Joining a Bomber Crew -Too many men were trained to be glider pilots so half of the class was sent to be reclassified -He was selected for gunnery training -Sent to Gunnery School in Las Vegas, Nevada -From there he was sent to Wendover Field, Utah where crews were being formed -When he got there he wasn't yet part of a unit -Began training with his crew, as a crew -The 461st Bombardment Group had lost a crew, so his crew was selected as a replacement -After being assigned to the 461st they were sent to Fresno, California -Most likely Hammer Field -Started to hear rumors that they would be sent to the European Theatre -Fresno was a large base -Went on training flights -Shot at targets in the Pacific Ocean -Had more bombers than they had crews -Had to wait for a bomber to be available for training missions -Flew simulated bombing missions and navigation missions -Spent a lot of time waiting for training missions -Pilot, co-pilot, navigator, and bombardier were the ones that needed training -Crew's unit was getting stronger -Pilot had to have a minimum amount of hours in flight before being deployed -Learning how to fly in formation -Navigator had to learn how to land in bad conditions -One time they came back from a training mission and had to land at a fogged in air field -Socialized with the other crews and got to know the other airmen (00:22:29) Deployment -Received orders to go overseas -His crew and their ground crew was the only one without a bomber -Had to board a train and go to Camp Patrick Henry, Virginia -Boarded a Liberty Ship and was on that for thirty one days -Finally arrived in Italy -Never got seasick -Other men got seasick -He was on the lower bunk and got thrown up on (00:23:53) Arrival in Italy �-Had no feelings whatsoever when he got to Italy -Considered himself to be an American, and only American, when he got there -Stayed in Naples for a week then took a train to the Adriatic coast -Knew they would be bombing targets within 800-900 miles of their base -Meant they would eventually bomb targets in Regensburg, Vienna, Budapest, and Ploesti -Went to Torretto Airfield -Airfield had recently been built -Set up their tents -Four men to a tent and they slept on cots -Didn't have any missions until April 1944 -Would get up early and have breakfast -Went on marches, hilles, and continued to do exercises to stay in shape -Had basic showers and toilet facilities (00:27:20) First Mission -First mission was to Nis, Yugoslavia -Bombing marshalling yards (train yards) -Faced little opposition -Mission began with a briefing -An officer telling them where to go and what their targets were -Got into trucks and were taken to their bombers -Part of a twenty four (or twenty five) bomber formation -One would take off at a time then they would form up in the air -Commander would fly up in a P-40 to get the bombers into formation -As the gunner he was assigned an area to watch for incoming enemy fighter planes -It was an experience he had been looking forward to -Had an intercom on the bomber so the crewmembers could communicate with each other -Pilot was able to communicate with the other bombers in the formation -The bomber was loud and cramped -Wore an electrically heated suit and had a sheepskin coat to keep him warm -Had an eagle eye view of the terrain -First mission was a success -Sense of elation that the mission was a success -Disappointed that they didn't see any fighters though (00:32:37) Flying Missions -Saw a lot of flak on later missions -On the mission to Ploesti they ran into fighters -Bombing the oil fields of Vienna they also ran into fighters -The main objective of the bombing campaign was to destroy Germany's ability to have oil -Without oil they couldn't fuel their mechanized military -Did pattern bombing -Bombers would fly in a V-formation �-Practiced what is known as "saturation bombing" -Dropping a massive amount of bombs on a small area -Didn't always fly at full strength -Some bombers were damaged and needed to be stripped of their parts -During one mission he got hit in the foot by a piece of shrapnel -Also lost their nose wheel and had to skid to a stop when they landed -Foot wasn't terribly injured -Didn't fly for four or five missions -More severe injuries required being evacuated to a larger hospital -Saw other bombers get shot down during missions -Knew men in those bombers -Would count the number of men that got out -Entire crew didn't always get out -Had to be confident that it wouldn't happen to them -Otherwise you couldn't handle the stress -Had to keep going knowing that friends had been killed (00:40:30) Morale -Morale was excellent -Knew they would fight until the war was won (00:41:02) Ground Crew -Had a great relationship with the ground crew -One of the crew chiefs was from his hometown -Guns would have to be cleaned after missions -Moisture from clouds would cause damage to the guns if they weren't cleaned -Ground crew would remind the gunners to fire their guns during missions -Kept the guns hot and curbed that problem (00:42:07) Bombing Raid at Ploesti -First time they encountered fighters was during a bombing raid against Ploesti -The enemy fighters had followed them in and then attacked -Bombers stayed close together to achieve maximum amount of protection -If a bomber lagged behind it was picked off by the enemy fighters -He was able to get a few shots off at the enemy fighters -Everything happened so fast though (00:43:40) Last Mission and Getting Shot Down -On the last mission that he flew they lost thirteen bombers -One of those bombers was his bomber -Took severe damage and the bomber split in half -He was able to get a parachute before he was sucked out of the plane -Only one of three survivors from his bomber -Landed in Austria somewhere -Glided down for 15,000 feet -Watched an American fighter plane shoot down a German fighter plane -He had been severely wounded -Leg, hand, and side had sustained severe injuries (00:47:54) Getting Captured-Mauthausen Concentration Camp -An old man came by and found him �-Later, three other men came and collected him -He was taken to Mauthausen Concentration Camp -The Austrians were totally impersonal toward him -Neither hostile, nor friendly -The concentration camp was being used for political prisoners -Taken to a hospital in the camp -After being treated he was placed in a barracks with the other surviving crewmembers -Kept in the bunks where the Jewish prisoners were -After four or five days Luftwaffe officials came to take them out of the concentration camp -He was the only wounded crewmember -Saw SS guards in the towers -Got taken there around 10AM (00:51:37) Getting Captured-Linz -He was taken to a hospital in Linz by the Luftwaffe officials -Knew that there were political prisoners being kept by the Germans -Didn't realize the scope and inhumanity though -Treated humanely by the Luftwaffe officials -The hospital in Linz was a Catholic hospital -Had a collection of Allied prisoners being treated for their wounds -Australians, Canadians, South Africans, Welsh, and two Americans -Most were prisoners of war that had been captured in Italy or North Africa -The German doctors there treated his wounds without anesthetic -Didn't want to show any pain -They didn't respect soldiers that showed pain (00:55:31) Getting Captured-Red Cross Hospital -He was transferred to a Red Cross hospital -There were about 1000 prisoners there -Treated by doctors that were also prisoners -Nationalities from all of the Allied countries -A lot of prisoners were dying from tuberculosis -Most of the Russians died of malnutrition first -Only kept there for about one week -Allowed to talk to other prisoners -Talked to the Canadian and English prisoners of war -The food there wasn't bad -Given a bowl of soup (00:58:10) Getting Captured-Stalag Luft 4 and Stalag Luft 1 -Received word that he was going to be taken to a camp in Poland -One guard was placed in charge of guarding three prisoners -Took them from Linz to Vienna -Took them to his house and introduced them to his wife and child -Escorted them to Prague -Took them to a USO-type show for German soldiers -Played cards with German soldiers �-From Prague went to Dresden -Dresden was a beautiful city before being firebombed -From Dresden went to Berlin -From Berlin he was taken to Stalag Luft IV -The Russians were advancing quickly so the prisoners were taken to Stalag Luft I -Took two weeks to travel west from Stalag Luft IV to Stalag Luft I INTERVIEW ENDS HERE; INCOMPLETE For the remainder of the interview, visit Youtube and begin here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni2ghD-mH8k � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/349044d393fe9a1aa1f38c689343730a.pdf 6def42cb8b425006aef44c14d2dc8f0f PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Peter Godino World War II Youtube Interviews-8 Parts PART 1/8 10 minutes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NDlvbxaDRo (00:00:14) Early Life -Born in Italy on November 16, 1921 -Came to the United States in 1930 -Father had lived in the U.S. since 1905 -Came to West Manayunk, Pennsylvania -Did not speak English at first -Did not face ridicule or prejudice for being Italian -Did not grow up in an Italian neighborhood -Got a hog once a year, helped a farmer harvest crops, and canned food -Helped during the Great Depression -When he was old enough he shoveled snow during the winters -Brought home the money he made to help the family (00:01:48) Enlisting in the Army -A man from his town had joined the Army and came back to visit -Looked like a good deal -Decided to enlist when he was old enough -Enlisted in the Army when he was eighteen years old -Went to the courthouse in Pennsylvania and enlisted there -Needed fresh recruits for the Army Air Corps -Enlisted in 1939 (00:02:48) Basic Traininig -Went to Bolling Field, Washington D.C. for basic training -Travelled there by train -Travelled with six or seven other recruits -It was the furthest that he had ever been from home -Had large, brick barracks -Starting to build wooden barracks by time he arrived -Wasn't very crowded at the time -Trained for two, or three, months -Drills, marching, and learning about Army etiquette (who to salute and who not to salute) -Food was the best that he had ever had -First time he had pork chops -Congressmen would visit to see how the living conditions were -Judged the Army based on the conditions that they saw at Bolling Field (00:04:30) Stationed at Bolling Field Pt. 1 -With basic training complete he was given an assignment at Bolling Field �-His job was to stoke the fires for the hot water heaters -Made sure that there was always hot water for the showers -Twenty four hours on duty, twenty four hours off duty -After stoking the fires he was transferred to operations -Like a regular civilian job -Pilots would file a flight plan -He would call it into an operations center that was across the Potomac River -Worked with six other men -Small operation because there weren't many planes at the time -Had some B-18s, AT-6s, and B-12s -Outdated for the time -Had one P-39 come in -Most of those were being sent to Russia though -Saw one P-40 and one P-35 -Always had an interest in flying -Didn't have the education to become a pilot -Just content to be around aircraft (00:06:43) Following the News of World War Two -Aware of what was happening in Europe and Asia -Knew that sooner or later the United States would get involved in the war -Knew that President Roosevelt and Prime Minister Churchill were having meetings -Prime Minister Churchill came to Bolling Field once -Peter was part of the Honor Guard -Happened in February 1941 -Had to stand in the cold for four hours waiting for the prime minister -Saw President Roosevelt and Prime Minister Churchill meeting on the airfield -Got the impression that England desperately needed help -He admired Prime Minister Churchill, but loved President Roosevelt -Believed that President Roosevelt saved the U.S. from collapse and conquest (00:09:25) Stationed at Bolling Field Pt. 2 -He was also in charge of parachutes before being assigned to operations -Had "$1 a year" men -Wealthy officers that had to get four hours of flight time in each year -They would come in and check out a parachute so that they could go flying PART 2/8 10 minutes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oGWEQ8_T0w (00:00:02) Pearl Harbor -He was working in operations on December 7, 1941 and heard about the attack on Pearl Harbor -Came on the radio at 10 or 11 AM �-Restrictions began immediately -Leaves were cancelled -Could no longer wear civilian clothes on the base -Immediately went into a war time footing -He knew where Pearl Harbor was -Knew men that had been stationed at Hickam Field -Had initially believed that the war was going to come from Europe -After the trade restrictions began against Japan it became apparent they would attack -Knew that they would get desperate enough to attack (00:01:43) Glider Training -In 1942 the Army began the Glider Program -He took an aptitude test and was approved to be a glider pilot -Sent to Antigo, Wisconsin for glider training -Received primary flight training there -Got seventy or eighty hours of powered flight training -Got thirty five hours of glider training -Flew Piper Cubs -Small, single engine planes -Solo flew for six hours -The idea was to use gliders to carry troops into enemy territory -Similar to paratroopers, but a precursor to helicopters (00:02:43) Gunnery Training -At the end of glider training there were too many glider pilots -Half of the pilots were sent to be reclassified -He was selected for Gunnery School -He was sent to a gunnery school in Las Vegas, Nevada (00:03:09) Joining the 461st Bombardment Group -After training in Las Vegas he was sent to Wendover Field, Utah -Bomber crews were being formed there -He joined his crew, but was not assigned to a unit yet -The 461t Bombardment Group lost a B-24 in Huntington Lake, California on December 6, 1943 -The 461st then needed a replacement crew, so his crew was selected -Sent to Hammer Field in Fresno, California -It was a large base -Trained there -Shot at targets in the ocean -There was a limited number of bombers available for use by the crews -Meant they had to wait to train until a bomber became available -Flew training missions for the navigator and the bombardier -Spent a lot of time waiting or an available bomber -Pilot, co-pilot, navigator, and the bombardier were the men that needed training -Other crewmembers felt like brothers -Learned how to fly in formation -When they weren't training they would socialize with the other crews �-There was a definite sense of camaraderie (00:07:15) Deployment -His crew and their ground crew were the only ones that would have to go over on a ship -This was because they didn't have a bomber -Placed on a train and went to Camp Patrick Henry, Virginia -Boarded a Liberty Ship -Took thirty one days to reach Italy -Never got seasick -Other men got seasick -On the way over the man above him threw up on him (00:08:26) Arrival in Italy -No feeling when he arrived in Italy -Felt that he was an American and nothing else -Arrived in Naples -Stayed there for about one week -Boarded a train and went to Torretto Airfield (00:08:58) Stationed at Torretto Airfield -Knew that they would be bombing anything withing 800-900 miles -Bombed targets in places as far as Regensburg, Vienna, Budapest, and Ploesti -Airfield was next to a farm -Set up tents in the field adjacent to the runway -Slept on cots -Didn't have a mission until April 1944 -Spent a lot of time going on long marches and hikes PART 3/8 10 minutes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmkzzxWl0WA (00:00:01) Morale -Knew the men that had been shot down on missions -Would count the parachutes that managed to get out of the bomber -He was confident that he was going to survive the war -Without that confidence you could not fly missions -Somber when they returned to the airfield knowing that some planes had been lost -Had to keep going -Knew that they were there for a purpose and would fight until they were victorious -Morale was excellent -Even the ground crews wanted to go up despite the danger -Had an excellent relationship with their ground crew -One of the crew chiefs actually came from his hometown (00:02:12) Flying Missions -On missions you had to fire the gun every five minutes or the gun would freeze up -Moisture would get into the barrel, and at -50°F it would freeze almost instantly -Mostly dealt with flak while on missions -First time he had to deal with German fighter planes was the bombing raid at Ploesti -If a bomber lagged behind it was usually shot down by enemy planes �-Dogfights would happen so quickly it was hard to engage the German planes (00:03:44) Shot Down -On the last mission he flew thirteen bombers were lost -One of those was his bomber -They had taken so much fire that the bomber split in half -He quickly got on a parachute -Just as he did he was sucked out of the plane -Out of the ten man crew only three men survived -Landed in Austria -At the time of falling out of the plane he only had the parachute half on -Part of this was because his hand had been severely injured by shrapnel -It took a while for him to land -Descending from a height of 18,000 feet -Watched a P-38 following a German Focke-Wulf fighter plane -After landing he laid down on the ground -His hand, his leg, and his side had been severely damaged from the shrapnel -Tossed away his pistol as soon as he could -Knew that he would have been shot if he was caught with a gun (00:08:02) Mauthausen Concentration Camp -An old man came by and found him -An hour later the old man returned along with three other Austrians -They placed him in a blanket and carried him to Mauthausen Concentration Camp -He didn't get the impression that the Austrians were necessarily hostile -More, or less, impersonal and apathetic about his presence -He had a cut on his eyelid -He was taken to a "hospital" in the concentration camp and was given stitches -He saw three tiered bunks full of prisoners -The survivors from his bomber were also there -After three or four days Luftwaffe officers came to take them to a prisoner of war camp PART 4/8 10 minutes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YilCuNWN9Cg (00:00:01) Mauthausen Concentration Camp -Brought right up to the entrance of the concentration camp -He was the only injured airman -Saw some SS guards and a manned guard tower -Got to the concentration camp around 10AM -He was brought inside the camp and was taken to the "hospital" -Only his cut eyelid was treated, the other injuries were ignored -After three or four days he and the other airmen were collected by Luftwaffe officers -He was then taken to a hospital in Linz, Austria -While at the concentration camp he had to lay down all the time -Only had a bucket as a toilet -Saw some of the Jewish prisoners -He had heard about political prisoners, but didn't realize the scope of the atrocity �-He was shocked to see how the prisoners were treated by the Germans (00:02:42) Hospital in Linz, Austria -The Luftwaffe officers treated him humanely -The hospital in Linz was big -He was placed in a ward with other Allied prisoners of war -South Africans, Australians, Canadians, Welsh, and a couple Americans -Didn't know either of the Americans -Most of them had been captured in North Africa or in Italy -His leg was operated on by German doctors -Did not receive any anasthetic -Couldn't show any pain or emotion while being operated on -Germans respected a soldier that showed strength (00:04:49) Red Cross Hospital -He was transferred to a Red Cross Hospital -There were roughly 1,000 prisoners of war there from every Allied country -The doctors there were Italians -There were a lot of Serbs, Greeks, and Russians -Most of the Russians were dying from tuberculosis and malnutrition -He was at the Red Cross Hospital for about two weeks -He was allowed to talk to the other prisoners of war -He talked with the Canadian and English prisoners of war -Fed soup -It was a mix of dehydrated vegetables and insects that had gotten into the soup -Had initally picked out the bugs, but then just ate them (00:06:55) Transferred to Stalag Luft IV and Stalag Luft I -He was then taken to Poland by train -One German soldier was in charge of guarding three crippled prisoners of war -Taken from Linz, Austria to Vienna, Austria -German soldier invited the prisoners into his home to meet his family -Introduced them to his wife and his nine year old daughter -The day after that they got up before dawn and went to the train station -Waited there for fourteen hours for a train -From Austria went to Brno (Brünn), Czechoslovakia then to Prague, Czechoslovakia -In Prague they were taken to a USO-style show for German soldiers -Chance for their guard to get some sleep -There was a picture of Hitler right up front -They just sat in the back and played cards with German soldiers -From Prague went to Dresden, Germany then from Dresden to Berlin, Germany -Dresden was a beautiful city before it was firebombed in February 1945 -He was kept in an English prisoner of war camp for an hour of two -From Berlin went to a city on the Oder River then on to Stalag Luft IV -The Russian advance prompted the evacuation of Stalag Luft IV in February 1945 -Prisoners with leg injuries were loaded onto trains to be taken to a camp to the west �-Took two weeks to reach Stalag Luft I -Stalag Luft I was a pretty good prisoner of war camp PART 5/8 10 minutes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni2ghD-mH8k (00:00:01) Transferred to Stalag Luft IV and Stalag Luft I -The German soldier lived in an apartment -Slept in the dining room with the two other prisoners of war -The German soldier was technically an Austrian -He had a heart condition and had fought on the Eastern Front -Wife treated them with humanity and hospitality -Passed through Berlin en route to Stalag Luft IV -It was a shell of a city that was kept running by slave labor -He had no doubt that the Allies would be victorious -Confident that the Allies would out produce the Germans -Berlin had been devastated by bombing raids -Didn't see many civilians -Arrived at a town near Stalag Luft IV -Had to walk from the town to the prison camp -Encountered some civilians on the road -All greetings had been replaced with "Heil Hitler" -Given a quarter loaf of black bread for the entire trip to Stalag Luft IV -In Prague they passed a bakery -A girl came out and asked the guard if it was okay to give the prisoners some food -The guard allowed it and she gave each of them a sweet roll -He learned a bit of German while he was a prisoner -The guard also knew some English so they could converse with each other (00:06:34) Stalag Luft IV -There were about 10,000 prisoners of war at Stalag Luft IV -2,500 of them were English -Some had been there for four years -Germans treated those prisoners with respect and as equals -There were only airmen at this camp -Kept under guard by watch towers and guard dogs -The camp was in the middle of a forest -He was placed in a barracks -Had to sleep on the floor -By October and November 1944 it was getting very cold -Only had an English uniform, an overcoat, and a pair of English shoes -There were two hundred men to a barracks -Twenty men to a room -Had a room leader and a barracks leader -Hierarchy was based on rank -Highest ranking prisoner was the leader -In his case it was an American officer �PART 6/8 10 minutes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pNyKeOeuNw (00:00:03) Stalag Luft IV -The leader did all of the negotiations with their German captors -Reported any Geneva Convention infractions -Put together a radio so that they could get the news every night -He was quartered with other American prisoners -They weren't forced to work -Just spent a lot of time playing cards -Had to stand for roll call every morning -After that you could do whatever you wanted -Spent a lot of time just walking around the perimeter of the camp for exercise -Never heard anyone talking about an escape plan -Didn't see the sense in it -Heard about the Battle of the Bulge on the radio -Got a new prisoner every day -They would tell the other prisoners what they knew about the outside world -Most of the camp guards were old men -Didn't carry guns -They were surrounded by electrified barbed wire (00:03:20) Stalag Luft I -They started to hear artillery in the distance as the Allies and the Soviets advanced -Concerned that the Germans would kill all of them at the end of the war -Decided that if it came to that they would fight back -When President Roosevelt died the guards gloated about how the Americans were leaderless -Couldn't understand how the American government had fail safes in place -He had been placed on a train and taken from Stalag Luft IV to Stalag Luft I -One of 1,500 prisoners on that train -Only had melted snow to drink for water -There were forty men to a boxcar -Had a bucket for a toilet -Took eleven days to reach Stalag Luft I -Only ate what you had brought with you from Stalag Luft IV -There were 10,000 prisoners of war at Stalag Luft I -1,000 of them were English -Treated a little better at Stalag Luft I -He was placed in a barracks -Ran into his old co-pilot and waist gunner -The only survivors from his bomber crew -Both had wound up at Stalag Luft I after being captured -It was like reuniting with brothers -They had good showers at Stalag Luft I -Kept at Stalag Luft I from February 1945 to April 1945 �-It was boring -Get up in the morning for roll call, walk around, and wait for food (00:08:35) Liberation -Russians liberated their camp on May 1, 1945 -Never felt overtly threatened while at Stalag Luft I -Always concerned there would be a massacre at the end of the war though -Always just a rumor though -Went to bed on April 30 and were convinced the next day they would all be killed -Woke up the next day to find that the Germans had abandoned the camp PART 7/8 5 minutes 43 seconds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGHRfuaDCUM (00:00:01) Liberation -The Germans had been building a solitary confinement building before they left -Had been working on it until they left the camp on April 30 -Everyone came out of their barracks and wondered what to do next -Soviet troops arrived in jeeps and on horses -Told to wait in the camp -Allied forces would be on their way to fly them out (00:01:05) Following the Russian Advance -He was sick of being in the camp and decided that he would follow the Russian advance -Started off on foot, then found a bike, then found a horse -Also hitched rides with Russian soldiers whenever he could -Went to Wismar, Germany -He would eat with Russian soldiers -Russians shared their food with him -Felt that it would be faster to travel with the Russians to get back to Allied lines -There were still pockets of German resistance -Went past areas where German and Russian soldiers were fighting -He went through Berlin after the Russians had taken the city on May 2, 1945 -City had been laid to waste -Felt that the Russians could have just surrounded the city and starved it into surrendering -He wasn't armed -He would stop at German farm houses and sleep there -Germans would allow him to stay and eat -Heard stories about atrocities being committed by the Russians -One woman said she was gang raped in front of her husband and son -He never saw it happen though -When he got to Wismar on the Elbe River two German women asked him to take their children -They didn't want their children to be around when the Russians arrived -He agreed to do it and helped them (00:05:19) Returning to England -Once he crossed the Elbe River he was in the British sector �-Went to Kiel, Germany and took a plane to Bath, England -Placed in a hospital there PART 8/8 5 minutes 24 seconds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mf7sbADKcgE (00:00:01) Coming Home and End of Service -Got on a ship at Southampton and sailed back to the United States -Other prisoners from Stalag Luft I had been taken to Camp Lucky Strike in France -It took him three weeks longer to get back to the United States -Got a worthwhile adventure out of going on his own though -In England he gave them his rank, name, and serial number for identification purposes -Once he was well enough to travel he went to Southampton to board the ship -Landed in New York City -Got to see the Statue of Liberty -He was then taken to a hospital on Staten Island -From New York he was sent to Wilmington, North Carolina -From Wilmington he was sent back up to Plattsburgh, New York -Had some dental work done there and then got discharged from the Army -After getting discharged he went to Philadelphia -Wife was living there with their child -He got to see his wife when he was in New York -They had a child he hadn't gotten to see before being deployed -Went to a cousin's house in Brooklyn and saw his wife there -It was like their honeymoon all over again -Upon returning to Philadelphia he finally got to see his child -He was discharged at Plattsburgh, New York on October 19, 1945 -Had joined the Army in December 1939 -Nearly six full years of service (00:03:43) Reflections on Service -Army helped to establish a basis for being an honorable person -Did something that earned him his right to be here -It was a good lesson in life -He wouldn't want it to happen again, but he would do it all over again if he had to � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_GodinoP1793V Title A name given to the resource Godino, Peter N (Interview outline and video), 2005 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-10-20 Description An account of the resource Peter Godino was born in Italy on November 16, 1921. In 1930 he and his mother and siblings came to the United States to live with his father in Pennsylvania. When he was eighteen he enlisted in the Army and was placed in the Army Air Force. He trained at Bolling Field, Washington D.C. and served there until he joined the glider program in 1942. He trained with gliders in Wisconsin, but was reassigned to gunnery training. He received gunnery training in Las Vegas then joined a bomber crew at Wendover Field, Utah. The crew was assigned to the 461st Bombardment Group and they were sent for further training at Fresno, California. They eventually received orders to go overseas and wound up at Torretto Airfield, Italy. They began flying missions in April 1944, bombing targets in Regensburg, Vienna, Budapest, Ploesti, as well as in Yugoslavia. His bomber was eventually shot down and he was one of three survivors from his crew. He was then captured and taken to Mauthausen Concentration Camp, Stalag Luft IV, and finally Stalag Luft I. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Godino, Peter N. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Air Corps Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9a53f329361c05166258357516268adf.m4v 2a08dd3711ba6a2606272eded1fde397 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6d191842fbea16b5cfff48004ce38c17.pdf 7d7c13f5ba7b9a61462d1833e0363b87 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Peter Newman War in Afghanistan 2 hours 18 minutes 36 (00:00:18) Early Life -Born in Mount Prospect, Illinois on June 18, 1980 -Parents’ names were Jay and Barb -Both of his parents were teachers -His father was a secondary education teacher, and his mother was in early education -He had an older brother and a younger sister -Moved to Colon, Michigan and attended elementary school there -After elementary school he and his family moved to Sturgis, Michigan -Graduated from high school in Sturgis -Met his wife at the end of high school -Got married after attending college at Western Michigan University (00:01:54) Enlisting in the Army -There wasn’t any one point that made him want to enlist -He had talked to Army and Marine recruiters in his senior year of high school -Wound up getting enrolled in Western Michigan University’s Reserve Officer Training Corps -His grandfather had fought in World War II and his older brother was in the Army -He wanted the scholarship money and the experience of being in the Army -Also looked up to his brother and wanted to follow what he did (00:03:53) Reserve Officer Training Corps -Joined the Army ROTC in 1997 -First year of ROTC was introductory -One day a week for a couple hours being taught basic Army information -Protocol, decorum, ethics, map reading, and troop formations -Second year was more focused on tactics -Between first and second year went to Schofield Barracks, Hawaii for air assault training -The idea of ROTC was for it to be a slow progression of military knowledge -Before being commissioned had to go to “Summer Camp” -Leadership training course at Fort Lewis, Washington -It was basically an assessment of your knowledge of being an officer in the Army -ROTC physical training consisted of 3 days of it a week, starting in his third year -Joined the “Western Rangers” early on -Helped with physical and mental conditioning as well as further introductions to tactics -It served as preparation for going into the infantry -He had friends in both the ROTC and outside of it -While he was at WMU he visited his future-wife at Albion College -Each ROTC volunteer had his or her own reasons for joining -Some wanted the scholarship then would leave the ROTC -Some wanted to mark the ROTC as the beginning of a military career -Some of the volunteers washed out due to the physical training being too demanding �-His specialization became as a signal infantryman in his senior year of college -Start off knowing how to be an infantryman, and then move on to being a signal officer -Working with military communications (computers, radios, networks, etc.) (00:09:54) September 11 Attacks -He was in his senior year of college when 9/11 happened -He had already wanted to go into the infantry, so 9/11 didn’t change anything with that -He had been getting ready to go into a class when his sister called him -Told him to turn on the TV; he skipped his classes and watched the events unfold -The attacks only served to reinforce his desire to be in the Army -He knew that it changed what the nature of his service would be like -He already knew there was a good chance that he’d probably go somewhere he didn’t want to -Looking back, didn’t think that the majority of his career would be spent in the war (00:12:13) Graduation, Commission, and Infantry Officer Basic Training -Graduated from college in June 2002 -Allowed to finish his degree before going into the Army -He received his commission and became an officer on June 29, 2002 -In July 2002 he went down to Fort Benning, Georgia for infantry officer basic training -While he was waiting for the training to start he took some courses to prepare himself -Upon arriving in Georgia he had to adjust to the warmer weather -Went for a five mile run and thought he was going to have a heart attack -Remembers having to do 100 pull ups before getting a shower and dinner -Took him about a week to adjust to the heat and humidity -Part of the training was learning how to interact with noncommissioned officers (sergeants) -Essentially the goal was to see the Army as a profession -Another part of the training was advanced infantry tactics -Learning how to make good judgment calls as a leader -Spent a lot of time training in the field and living out of a rucksack -Enjoyed it because it felt like being a soldier and not like being a student -Also enjoyable because he enjoyed camping and being in nature -Some of the men training them were veterans from Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan -Told the trainees about what to expect were they deployed to Afghanistan -There wasn’t discussion about where they would be sent after training -Trained with a diverse group of men and women including international officers -They had a major from Egypt, a lieutenant from Turkey and a lieutenant from Greece -There was a lieutenant from the United Arab Emirates that he talked about Islam with -Realized that the Middle Easterners are humans too and not just a target -Helped greatly when he was deployed to Afghanistan and dealing with the culture -Showed him that, for the most part, the Middle East is full of people, not enemies -The training was focused on “force-on-force” training, not counter-insurgency training -Going up against an “enemy” force that closely resembled the Russians, or Iranians -The idea was preparation for a clearer cut war than fighting an insurgency -Throughout his training he always reminded himself that wherever he went, there were civilians -How he would feel about a war being fought in front of his family -Towards the end of this training there was a lot of talk about invading Iraq -Finished the infantry officer basic training in December 2002 �(00:24:30) Pre-10th Mountain Division Service -He was originally assigned to the 82nd Airborne Division -Went home for a short leave and got married during that time -Returned and went into the Ranger School, but did not complete it due to plantar fasciitis -He intended to return to Ranger School, but never did because of his deployments -As his feet healed he worked as a trainer for the 211th Infantry Battalion 11th Infantry Regiment -After his feet were healed he was sent to a signal school at Fort Gordon, Georgia -It was a ten week qualification course (00:28:09) Assignment to the 10th Mountain Division -He was attached to the 10th Signal Battalion and was made the executive officer for A Company -He became close with an officer named Doug Sloan who helped him get back in shape -Doug’s family lived with Peter’s family for about six months -The 10th Signal Battalion is a part of the 10th Mountain Division -The 10th was, and still is, the most deployed division in the Army -They always had troops on the ground in Afghanistan -After a few months the division was reorganized -He helped with the reorganization process -Moved equipment to new buildings, changed personnel, and updated equipment -Part of his job during this was to manage personnel and equipment -Keeping track of who had what, and who could be trusted with it -Stayed with the 10th Signal Battalion from late 2003 to mid-2004 -Spent a year as the executive officer of Charlie Signal Battalion of the 3rd Brigade (“Spartans”) -They had “sister” units deployed at this time and the division was getting ready to deploy -The reorganization was completed and he left C Signal Battalion in 2005 -Joined the 1/32nd Infantry Battalion (00:36:30) Being an Officer -Always took notes on what works and what doesn’t work as a leader -Learned from the good (what to do) officers and bad (what not to do) officers -He had some problems with the enlisted men (privates, specialists, corporals) and officers -Remembers one officer who commanded from a closed office -This meant that he basically had to assume responsibility for his unit -Dealt with the problems that enlisted men ran into -Bailing enlisted men out of jail -Remembers disciplining one by making him walk back to base -Dealing with DUIs, domestic disputes, assault (w/ deadly weapon and sexual) -Basically there were good soldiers, bad soldiers, and soldiers who made bad decisions -His job as an officer was always to make the Army look as professional as possible (00:41:04) Joining the 1/32nd Infantry Battalion of the 10th Mountain Division -In 2005 he became the S6 (communications) officer for B Company of the 1/32nd -He has identified the most with the 132nd Infantry Battalion -Wound up spending sixteen months in Afghanistan with them -Joined them in October 2005 and they were deployed in January 2006 -The 1/32nd was, and is, the most deployed battalion of the 10th Mountain Division -Saw action in Fallujah, Iraq; the Korengal Valley, Afghanistan -Also had a history of fighting in World War II and the Korean War -One of their own was a Medal of Honor recipient �-Received more training prior to being deployed -Received EIB (Expert Infantry Badge) training -Went to the National Training Center and the Joint Readiness Center -Also engaged in field exercises (00:45:23) Deployment to Afghanistan -They were deployed to Afghanistan in January 2006 -Families were allowed to come to the base to see them off -A major problem was that they were going to replace a nonexistent unit -This meant that they had to all of their equipment because there wasn’t any waiting -He had to get tactical satellite and high frequency radios -Necessary for communicating over the mountains in Afghanistan -He had to make a trip to Iraq to get more equipment once in Afghanistan -Flew over on a contracted flight to the Manas Air Base in Kyrgyzstan -From Manas took a C-17 into Bagram Airfield, Afghanistan -And from Bagram flew to Jalalabad, Afghanistan -On the way over stopped in Ireland, and then in Germany due to technical troubles -Not allowed to leave the hotel or to drink while in Germany (00:49:15) Conditions in Afghanistan -If you were stationed at Bagram there was relatively no real threat -It was basically a rest area and meant for soldiers to forget about the war for a while -The soldiers permanently stationed at Bagram were disconnected from reality though (00:51:24) Getting Established in Afghanistan -Managed to establish a radio network that worked out of the Pesh River Valley -Told that it would be impossible, but he and his unit accomplished it -He was able to get phone cards for the satellite phones so his soldiers could call home -Always wanted to make life a little less miserable for his soldiers -Even if it meant going up against higher ranking officers -They were stationed near the Afghanistan-Pakistan border -Their mission was to replace the 1st Marines and patrol an area the size of Vermont -Expected to do this with only six hundred men -Upon arriving had to repurchase and/or find equipment meant for Army use -They weren’t allowed to use the equipment left behind by the Marines -Over the course of a couple weeks was able to go around and collect equipment -Had to overhaul vehicles before using them -There were times where he would go days without sleep -Usually had to be forcibly sedated by a medic (00:58:30) Operation Mountain Lion -Operation Mountain Lion’s objective was to get a U.S. foothold in enemy territory -From there it would be easier to have a positive U.S. influence in the area -The plan was to push out the enemy then establish connections with the locals -The ultimatum to the locals was to keep the enemy out -If they did the U.S. would reward them with water, food, and money -Some of the communities were cooperative and others weren’t -Cooperative communities saw a threefold increase in average yearly income -In the cooperative communities they built schools, roads, and dug wells for them -The other communities began to cooperate seeing these improvements �-The bottom line was that if the locals were won over the insurgency would fail -By now the enemy wasn’t the Taliban but a mix of villagers, terrorists, and criminal groups -Mountain Lion was the largest operation in Afghanistan since Operation Anaconda -Multiple valleys were going to be attacked by the Army and the Marines -Pesh, Kunar, and Korengal Valleys -Mountain Lion was the first major push into that area -The first phase was to fly troops in in an air assault on the region -Once on the ground they could capture any persons of interest and start attacking -The second phase was moving in ground troops to flush out the remaining enemy forces -In the wake of the assault they were able to establish three combat outposts -Restrepo, Michigan, and California -There was some resistance and there were some casualties in the initial assault -Both increased after the outposts were established and the enemy forces returned -Took heavy casualties as the deployment continued through 2006 into 2007 (01:06:26) Meeting with the Afghans and Going on Patrols -They all knew that after a while they would have to go out on patrols and meet the locals -The problem is that they would go in, and then have to leave (eventually) -Once they left the enemy would return -The locals were more willing to help the enemy -Because the enemy would quickly resort to violence to extort the locals -Saw that Afghanistan is a beautiful country full of mountains, rivers and valleys -Unfortunately, there was a lot of ugliness in Afghanistan too that haunts him to this day -He had a lot of respect for the Afghan people -Got to know a mullah (Muslim religious scholar) and a trader -Saw that there were a lot of honest, hardworking people -Unfortunately, a lot of leaders were dishonest and corrupt -There was always an extreme risk in going out on patrols and meeting with the locals -As a result of the patrols 200 men were wounded, and twenty were killed -Some of the men lost had been close friends of his -Feels that if the strategy had been followed through the risk and loss would have been worth it -Instead, once they left it all began to implode and revert back to what it had been -He blames the implosion on the lack of continuity in units in the area -After a year a whole new group would have to come in and establish connections -Basically have to learn the culture and the individuals from scratch -There was a disconnect between winning the war on the national level and village level (01:19:20) Threats in Afghanistan -The enemy used anything and everything within reason against them -Suicide bombers, IEDs, Soviet weapons, mortars -Most of their casualties were due to IEDs -The terrain posed its own threat -He fell off a mountain. Twice. -There were dangerous animals in the area -Mountain lions, venomous scorpions, and venomous snakes -Several soldiers were evacuated due to scorpion stings -There were almost no laws pertaining to vehicle travel -On top of that some roads were so narrow that wheels hung off the edge of a cliff �-There were below-freezing temperatures -Being a light infantry unit they were poorly protected against IEDs -The enemy knew their patrol patterns and planted IEDs accordingly -Occasionally fuel trucks would be rigged to explode once they reached a base -Suicide bombers would bum rush a checkpoint then blow themselves up -IEDs were planted on cliffs so that when they exploded a vehicle would be thrown over the side -Constantly had to anticipate the threat of IEDs -Eventually got so good that they could head the threat off before it happened (01:24:29) Unit Cohesion and Strength -When going over as a unit you have a limited amount of personnel and equipment -Sometimes got additional personnel from the rear, but not often -The “reinforcements” they got were from wounded men coming back to fight -Most of the men in his unit wanted to do their part in the fight -Some men did not though, and he remembers having to court-martial one soldier -This man quit fighting in the middle of a firefight -Another soldier had to physically carry him out of the fight -Most of the men were willing to do their part, just for the sake of the person next to them -He attributes a lot of survivor’s guilt to that feeling of devotion -He still has guilt for sending out men on missions that they didn’t come back from -Or didn’t come back intact from (01:28:33) Daily Duties as an Officer -Requesting more supplies -Going out on patrols with the soldiers -Dealing with re-transmit teams that were in the field for ninety days at a time -Moving with the infantry and doing communications work with them -A lot of times the signal soldiers assumed the role of infantry, and vice versa (01:30:55) Re-Transmit Outposts -Re-transmit outposts were fairly well protected from enemy attacks -Stationary, relay stations manned by a few soldiers -The stations were watched over by U.S. and Afghan National Army soldiers -If the enemy attacked an outpost the retaliation would be swift and brutal -Usually fire everything available on them to send a clear message -Found at these outposts that if the enemy had to fight a conventional war they always lost -IEDs and other forms of indirect combat were basically useless (01:33:09) Working with the Afghan National Army (ANA) -The average ANA soldier was a good and honorable man -The leaders were former warlords and more selfish than the enlisted men -The regular soldiers were just fighting for a better life and for a better Afghanistan -He had the privilege of dealing with quality ANA units -The ANA had a different approach to combat situations -More inclined to charge in guns blazing without regard for their own safety -U.S. tried to teach them to soften a target with artillery and air strikes first -The ANA was a mix of Afghans from all over the country -Southerners were sent to the North and vice versa to help bond the country better -Some ANA soldiers would desert because they weren’t being paid for their service -Some men hadn’t been paid in over a year �(01:35:18) Deployment Extension -His unit was only supposed to be in Afghanistan for a year -He had been given two weeks of leave and got to go home and visit his family -At the end of their deployment their deployment was extended for an indefinite amount of time -They took casualties after the extension which caused bitterness -Feeling that the men killed or wounded shouldn’t have even been in the country -The extension caused a massive drop in the unit’s morale -As a leader he had to put on a good face and urge the other soldiers to keep pressing on -They were supposed to have gotten rotated to a rear area for a break -His unit was never allowed that because they were considered to be too essential -Soldiers, for the most part, understood and accepted it -Some men were rotated back to avoid total psychological breaks though (01:40:36) Emotional Impact of First Deployment -There are still memories that he keeps down and hasn’t talked about since -Things that he may never share -Things that he saw that make you lose a little faith in humanity -The things that bothered him the most were the things done to animals and to children -They had to routinely go out and kill dogs because they carried dangerous diseases -Bad for morale because of the emotional connection Americans have with dogs -Learned that donkeys can scream -Seeing what happened to children, and what that did to their families -Losing soldiers also had a huge toll on him -He lost his best friend, Doug Sloan, to an IED on October 31, 2006 -It has always made Halloween a difficult holiday for him -All of his friends that were killed, were killed by IEDs -One of his jobs was counter-IED work, so he has always felt responsible -In the years after his first deployment he has gone to therapy to cope with the grief -He recognized that he was changed in a profound way upon coming home -His wife eventually told him that either he got therapy, or she left -Able to deal with the loss of his friends now -He made some close friends while in Afghanistan that he still talks to today -That first deployment showed him the best, and worst, that humanity has to offer (01:45:55) Coming Home & Joining the National Guard -When he returned from his deployment he planned on getting out of the military -Got a job at Target and didn’t feel like he was making any difference in life -Found it impossible to go from making life or death decisions, to that -Wanted to go back to the military to be able to make a positive impact in the world -The end of the deployment to Afghanistan was June 2007 -Returned to the U.S. and signed up for the National Guard -He became the commander for the forward support company of the 507th Engineers Battalion -Planned on spending only one year in the National Guard, and part time -In the meantime got a job at Target -Didn’t make him happy, but they were at least good people to work for -He taught ROTC courses in 2008 before going full time in the National Guard in April 2009 -Started off working as both a commander and in a staff position in the National Guard -Helped build up the 507th Engineers Battalion from scratch �-The 507th specializes in construction, bomb disposal, firefighting, sapping, and field support (01:51:54) Second Deployment to Afghanistan Pt. 1 -When deployed for a second time his battalion was in charge of route clearance -Left the States in May 2012 and returned in March 2013 -Operated in the southern/southwestern part of Afghanistan -It was a tougher deployment because of the mission, and leaving his two year old son -The separation was a little less difficult thanks to broader internet and cell communication -Able to contact his wife and son with his iPhone at night -He became part of a Joint Staff in RC West working with the Italians, Spanish, and Lithuanians -Having constant communication with home made the deployment a little easier -Never got shot at and never felt in danger during his second deployment -Still went out on patrols occasionally to check in with his soldiers and to meet the locals -It was also not as difficult of a deployment because it wasn’t a full year deployment (01:56:17) End of Second Deployment -They accomplished their mission, but didn’t feel that the overarching mission was accomplished -It was disheartening to see that Afghanistan was not going to be a functioning state -Attributes a lot of that simply to the massive amount of disconnect with modernity -Some tribal people thought that they were Soviet troops at first and were scared -Had to convince and show them that they were American soldiers -Noticed that as the resources and personnel were pulled out the American influence collapsed -Enemy forces began to move back in and overwhelm Afghan forces (02:00:13) Second Deployment to Afghanistan Pt. 2 -Knew there was widespread corruption during the second deployment and had to deal with it -Demoralizing because he knew the average Afghan didn’t want that corruption -Some routes just had to be abandoned, and as a result some forward operating bases were too -The second deployment was much more coalition focused, than American focused -ANA and Afghan police started trying to kill coalition troops during his second deployment -Attributes that to a possible breakdown of respect between the two groups -Most of the second deployment consisted of planning and resource management -This meant that he could stay at battalion headquarters and not be in the field -He wasn’t able to go out with his soldiers as much as during the first deployment -Still made sure to go out and meet with his troops and the locals occasionally -Didn’t like being behind a desk, but realized that was the reality of higher rank (02:04:53) Working with Europeans on Second Deployment -He learned some Italian, some Spanish, and some Lithuanian -He learned that Americans have a different way of approaching tasks than Europeans -The Spanish and Italians were more focused on the process of a task -Americans are more focused on the results, and not how it was accomplished -During his first tour he had served with British and Australian forces -More Americanized than they would like to admit -Very similar to Americans in terms of being results, not process, oriented -The Lithuanians were Americanized as well -Had the same personalities and the same sense of humor (02:07:40) Coming Home from Second Deployment -He and his unit left Afghanistan in March 2013 -From Afghanistan flew to Texas and processed out there �-Given one week of medical examinations and paperwork to fill out -Checking for unknown injuries, diseases, and any psychological problems -Making sure that finances were in order so troops would get paid -Flew back to Michigan for the welcome home ceremony there -The processing in Texas was good for soldiers to decompress and readjust to being home -Saw that the welcome home ceremony was more for high ranking officers and politicians -Soldiers didn’t really care about the formality; they just wanted to see their families -It was basically a display for the military to be able to show troops were coming home -Return from first deployment hadn’t been quite as formal -Lower ranking officers didn’t care about formality -They just wanted to see their families too -As he moves up in the ranks he wants to work to compress the formality of it all -Feels that the soldiers of the 507th were cheated out of an experience by not getting leave -Because the deployment was so short they were not granted a leave home -Denied the chance for soldiers to see the appreciation of strangers for their work -Feels that not getting those interactions was demoralizing for troops (02:16:00) Reflections on the National Guard -Feels that National Guard troops, as a whole, are more mature -This is not a critique of Army regulars, but Guardsmen are usually older, experienced -Most likely have families; most likely have a civilian job outside of the Guard -Army regulars are younger and haven’t experienced “life” yet -Saw that National Guard troops are more self-sufficient which engenders responsibility -Saw that Guard troops are a little more career oriented and thus strive for professionalism � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_NewmanP1671V Title A name given to the resource Newman, Peter (Interview outline and video), 2014 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-09-27 Description An account of the resource Peter Newman is a major in the Michigan National Guard and a veteran of the War in Afghanistan. He was born in Mount Prospect, Illinois, in 1980 and grew up in Michigan. He took ROTC training in college and was commissioned in the Army in 2002. He trained as an infantry officer at Fort Benning, Georgia for infantry officer basic training and then served with 82nd Airborne Division, the 11th Infantry Regiment, the 10th Signal Battalion of the 10th Mountain Division and finally the 1/32nd Infantry Battalion of the 10th Mountain Division as the S6 (communications) officer for Bravo Company. In January 2006 the 1/32nd Infantry Battalion was deployed to Afghanistan. They operated in the Jalalabad area and took part in Operation Mountain Lion establishing the combat outposts of Restrepo, Michigan, and California. After a sixteen month tour he and his unit returned home in June 2007. Left the service briefly, then joined the Michigan National Guard. He taught ROTC courses before going full time in the Guard in April 2009. He helped build the 507th Engineers Battalion from scratch and deployed with them to Afghanistan in May 2012 operating in the south/southwestern portion of the country. In March 2013 the 507th returned home. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Newman, Peter Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American United States. Army United States. National Guard Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7cb29c62c0518ebcd9f26d90a157b94e.m4v 126dece86e4c5656975ad927608af65f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dda4a13595c215e75b387bb29038b4e0.pdf 31d5e26ef7ecedca01efe1635bddfa1b PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Steve Pullen Vietnam War 45 minutes 11 seconds (00:00:18) Early Life -He was born on Ramey Air Force Base, Puerto Rico -His father was an Air Force pilot -They moved around a lot when he was growing up -His father had deployments in Missouri, California, South Carolina, France and England -The place they wound up at was Homestead Air Force Base, Florida -His father flew fighter jets, specifically the F-100 Super Sabre -He also flew F-105 fighters out of Thailand during the Vietnam War -He had multiple tours and wound up flying one hundred missions all toll -He was living in Homestead, Florida when he graduated from high school -From high school he went to the University of Miami on a football scholarship -Felt out of his league playing on a college team -Part of the scholarship meant taking Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) -Once he dropped ROTC he was eligible to be drafted (00:02:12) Getting Drafted -Two weeks after dropping out of ROTC he was drafted into the Army -This was on April 18, 1968 -He was upset by this development for a variety of reasons -He knew a guy from his high school football team who had been killed in Vietnam -Hammered home the reality that he could die in Vietnam -He did not support the war -He felt that it was his duty to go though, so he went (00:03:32) Training -The first stop was basic training at Fort Jackson, South Carolina -From there he went to Fort Dix, New Jersey for advanced infantry training (AIT) -After AIT he was selected for Officers' Candidate School (OCS) -He took that course at Fort Benning, Georgia -His specialization in AIT was specifically as an infantryman -The OCS course lasted twenty three weeks -Graduated from Fort Benning, Georgia on March 15, 1969 -On top of those courses he also completed airborne (paratrooper) school -Completing airborne school allowed him to take Ranger/Pathfinder School -After completing the various schools he learned about flight school and enrolled in that -It was a 9 month course and he hoped that by time he was done the war would be over -From flight school he was selected to go into Cobra Transition School -This meant learning how to fly Cobra attack helicopters -Cobra Transition School was another month of training -After completing Cobra Transition School he received orders to go to Vietnam �(00:04:54) Arrival and Assignment in Vietnam -His initial assignment in Vietnam was to be with the 1st Cavalry Division -The day before going to his unit he was reassigned to the 101st Airborne Division -He was sent to Phu Bai to join up with his unit -He wanted to go into a Cobra Aerial Rocket Artillery (ARA) unit -He was offered the chance to go into air cavalry -This meant that they had both Cobras (attack helicopters) and Hueys (troop helicopters) -Upon entering the air cavalry he was assigned to B Troop of the 2nd of the 17th -He was specifically assigned to an aero-rifle platoon as its platoon leader -Eighteen man platoon -Meant that he wouldn't get to fly as a Cobra pilot -There was a surplus of Cobra pilots at the time -Because of this higher ranking men got picked first -Wound up spending five months (May-September 1970) as the aero-rifle platoon's leader (00:08:58) Action in the A Shau Valley -As a platoon leader he had a significant number of experiences in Vietnam -The most significant experiences were during the Ripcord Campaign -One of the more major occurrences was in the A Shau Valley -He and his platoon were able to capture a 37mm North Vietnamese artillery piece -When it came time to be extracted they were only able to take back the barrel -The entire piece was too heavy for a helicopter to lift (00:10:08) The Battle of Firebase Ripcord -During the Battle of Ripcord he remembers being sent out into the field -While in the field they discovered a communication cable -When they reported their discovery they were ordered to secure it -Shortly before this a rifle company had been forced out of the area -They were expected to secure the area with an eighteen man platoon -A three man intelligence team was sent in to tap the wire -Consisted of one Vietnamese man, a translator, and an American sergeant first class -The intelligence team discovered that there was a North Vietnamese regiment in the area -A regiment is anywhere from a few hundred, to a few thousand, soldiers -They called in for extraction and the initial request was denied -As they sat out in the field they witnessed the North Vietnamese beginning to mortar Ripcord -They were eventually pulled out just as a North Vietnamese team was being sent to investigate -Able to destroy the cable before leaving the area -Later discovered that there were actually two North Vietnamese regiments in the area (00:15:22) Air Crew Recovery and Rescue Mission -They routinely had to recover the bodies of downed air crews -One mission was a search and rescue mission involving an Army Ranger team -A helicopter had been shot down with Rangers onboard -His platoon was sent in to rescue them -When they arrived at the landing zone the enemy was still in the area -Upon arrival they immediately began to receive incoming fire -Out of the four helicopters, only two helicopters could safely drop off the troops -This meant that eleven men were expected to secure the landing zone -The helicopter pilot and the Rangers were safely extracted �-At that point he and the other men had to secure the landing zone so they could be extracted -Eventually got pulled out hanging off of rope ladders from helicopters -Only two men received minor wounds, and no one was killed -Securing that landing zone was the only major firefight he was in -The enemy was so close he could see their helmets in the trees -Always felt an obligation to recover, or rescue, air cavalry pilots and crew members -Knew that they would always save him if necessary -When he became a helicopter pilot he was shot down and was saved by them -One time a pilot defied a direct order, just to save him (00:20:21) Overview of Aero-Rifle Platoon Missions -Primary mission was always reconnaissance -Search enemy bodies for any signs of information that might be useful -Air craft recovery was their secondary mission -If a helicopter was shot down they would secure the location and have it extracted -Air crew and Ranger body recovery and rescue was their tertiary mission -One instance in May 1970 where they had to recover the bodies of five Rangers -Heavily demoralizing to lose five Rangers -It was always exhilarating rappelling out of a helicopter -Getting pulled out on a rope ladder was always a tense experience -Never got hurt and credits that to the skillful flying of the helicopter pilots (00:23:04) Assignment to the Scout Platoon -After being the platoon leader for five months he was promised a reassignment to a Cobra -It was not only a better combat position, but it meant better living conditions -In the rifle company their quarters on base were next to the toilets and the dump -They also had to deal with water running downhill into their quarters -Helicopter pilots lived at the top of the hill and didn’t have to deal with any of that -He was assigned to a scout platoon flying the OH-6 “Loach” helicopter -At the time he was not certified to fly a “Loach” -To qualify he flew five hours with an instructor, and five hours alone -He was not happy about the assignment for a variety of reasons -Scouts had a high frequency of being shot down -The scout pilots had to adopt a grim mindset to make it through the assignment -Ran into one pilot who convinced himself that he was already dead -Veteran pilots advised him to get out of the scout platoon sooner as opposed to later -During his time with the scout platoon multiple, entire scout crews were killed in action (00:27:42) Flying Missions in Laos -During Lam Son 719 he was moved to A Troop to help fly scouting missions -Lam Son 719 was the South Vietnamese invasion of Laos backed by the U.S. in 1971 -He was moved to A Troop because most of their scout pilots had lost -While flying missions into Laos scouts were escorted by Cobra helicopters -The Cobras took consistent losses because they had to fly low next to the OH-6s -Flying low meant the Cobras were more susceptible to antiaircraft fire -Without the protection from the Cobra the OH-6 was left completely exposed to fire -On top of that the Cobras had to fly with lighter weapons, so they could move faster -The primary mission was always to find and mark enemy positions for ground troops -Both in Laos and in Vietnam �(00:30:12) End of His First Tour in Vietnam -Looking back he didn’t feel that he was a good scout pilot -His aircraft would take a lot of enemy fire -Attributes that to having a slow reaction time -He flew with the scout platoon for six months -At the end of those six months the platoon was short on pilots -As a result he volunteered to fly as a scout for sixty more days -After flying with the scouts that was the end of his first tour in Vietnam (00:31:59) Coming Home and Redeployment to Vietnam -After his first tour he returned home and was assigned to Fort Bragg, North Carolina -At Fort Bragg he served as a rifle company commander with the rank of captain -He stayed at Fort Bragg for six months -During his time he got in serious trouble -His options were to be court martialed, or sent back to Vietnam -He chose the court martial because he felt he could defend himself -The battalion commander overruled his decision and sent him back to Vietnam (00:33:00) Returning to Vietnam -Upon returning to Vietnam he rejoined B Troop of the 2nd of the 17th -Soon after he returned he was informed that the 101st Airborne Division was going home -Called his parents and told them that he was coming home -In the meantime he was called up to the base’s headquarters -Informed that he would be staying in Vietnam as a replacement for another troop -His new assignment would be to F Troop in the 4th Cavalry (00:35:05) Serving with the 4th Cavalry -He reported to the 4th Cavalry which was stationed on the other side of Phu Bai -He returned to flying the OH-6 “Loach” as a scout pilot -Their initial base was on a beach until the Easter Offensive began -On March 30, 1972 the North Vietnamese began the Easter Offensive -F Troop was sent to help stop the advance of the North Vietnamese -After two months he was shot down and severely wounded -Upon being wounded he was evacuated from Vietnam and sent back to the United States (00:37:44) Returning to the United States -After being evacuated he was placed in a Veterans’ Affairs Hospital in Miami, Florida -Stayed there for six months getting healed -After leaving the hospital he was allowed to go home for three months -After the three months he appeared before a flight evaluation board -Decided that he was medically unfit to fly and was removed from flight status (00:38:10) Military Career -Still able to successfully complete Class 2 Flight Physical -This meant that he could still carry out paratrooper missions -Also allowed him to continue with his military career -Spent ten years serving with the infantry -Spent twenty years in the Special Forces -During his later military career got to see interesting parts of the world -His military career allowed him to shake hands with two U.S. presidents -President Carter and President Reagan �-Considers that the highlight of his military career -He was involved in the Invasion of Grenada in 1983 -He was involved in the Invasion of Panama (December 1989-January 1990) -During his career he saw action in Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Somalia, Bosnia, and Iraq -For Iraq it was both during the Gulf War and the War in Iraq -While in the hospital he got to the point where he wanted to die -Other soldiers wouldn’t let him give up on life -Their attitude and encouragement inspired him to continue with his military career -It led to him realizing that he wanted to forge a stronger bond with his comrades -He doesn’t regret making a career out of the Army -He feels comfortable with, and bonded to, the men that he has served with -He stayed in the Army because of the men that he was able to serve with � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_PullenS1688V Title A name given to the resource Pullen, Steve (Interview outline and video), 2014 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-10-10 Description An account of the resource Steve Pullen was born on Ramey Air Force Base, Puerto Rico, where his father was serving at the time. His family eventually settled in Florida, where he finished high school and started college, but his status changed and he was drafted into the Army in 1968. He opted for officer training, and then trained to fly Cobra attack helicopters. Sent to Vietnam in 1970, he was assigned to lead an aerorifle platoon in the 2/17 Cavalry in the 101st Airborne Division. He did this between May and September, 1970, and participated in the Ripcord campaign. He then became a scout helicopter pilot for another six months, participating in the Lam Son 719 operation in Laos in 1971. He returned fora second tour in 1972, again as a scout helicopter pilot, and was there during the 1972 offensive, and served with F Troop of the 4th Cavalry until he was wounded. He spent another thirty years in the Army, including twenty in the Special Forces, and served in Grenada, Bosnia, Somalia and Iraq. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Pullen, Steve Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McGregor, Michael (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/81503eb5eb2a7ad29930757892652f00.m4v 259fe7a8027648c2db48387137f042b5 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cbfaa7a706a235061b3e57f8537bd2eb.pdf e2564deb0af1664fd46809a2556c0c4a PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Gerald France World War II 1 hour 18 minutes 46 seconds (00:00:42) Early Life -Born in 1925 in New York City -When he was only a baby his father left the family -For a year and a half his mother struggled working as a waiter at a restaurant -They were invited to Governor’s Island by one Master Sergeant Kehoe -Wound up living there for sixteen years -Military Police guarded the island -Military prisoners swept the street and were constantly under guard -Nonviolent prisoners, mostly soldiers who were AWOL -Home of the 16th Infantry Regiment -His stepfather, Master Sergeant Kehoe, had fought in the Spanish-American War -Also fought in Mexico against Pancho Villa and in World War I -Part of the 1st Infantry Division by World War I -On Governor’s Island there was a golf course and tennis court -There was a New York state public school that went up to the eighth grade -There was a Boy Scout troop on Governor’s Island -Only mounted (able to ride horses) troop in the country -They had polo matches on Sundays -Got to see the Statue of Liberty -There was a small Boy Scout post on Liberty Island -When he graduated from the eighth grade there were only ten students in the graduating class -Went to Curtis High School on Staten Island -Had to take a ferry from Governor’s Island to Staten Island -Gave him enough time to do his homework (00:07:05) Start of the War and Awareness of the War -The boys on Governor’s Island had a clubhouse in the basement of the chapel -His brother’s eighteenth birthday happened to fall on December 7, 1941 -They were holding a party for him in the clubhouse and had a radio on -Heard the news that Pearl Harbor had been bombed by Japan -Immediately after the attack all the boys that were old enough went and enlisted -At the time of the attack he was only sixteen and a half at the time, so he was left behind -His brother enlisted in the Army Air Corps as an air cadet -He had already spent his summers working in the PX (general store) for the 16th Infantry -Knew that there was a war on in Europe and in Asia -Partied with the 16th Infantry Regiment soldiers, so he was aware of certain issues -Everyone expected the war to finally reach the United States -Initially thought that it would be because of the Soviet Union -The Boy Scouts had received training that would prepare them for war -Learned how to shoot rifles, and learned about how to maintain machine guns �(00:10:48) Enlisting in the Army Air Corps -When he was seventeen and a half years old he enlisted in the Army Air Corps Aviation Cadets -He could have enlisted in the Navy or Marines at seventeen -This required parents’ permission, and his parents wouldn’t grant the permission -When he enlisted in the Army Air Corps he took the necessary exams and was sworn in (00:11:46) Overview of Training -Began basic training when he was eighteen -He was sent to college training in St. Cloud, Minnesota -Took courses on astronomy and navigation -College training lasted ten weeks -Sent to classification process in Santa Ana, California to see where recruits would go -He was given coordination tests among other exams -Given the choice to become a bombardier, or a pilot -He choose to become a bombardier -He was sent to pre-flight training at Santa Ana, California -In the meantime his Uncle Bill died and he was allowed to return to Governor’s Island -After that returned to Hemet Field, California for primary training -He trained with the PT-22 low wing, monoplane, sporty training aircraft -While in primary training kept up with the progress of the war -While he was in training the pilot program was accelerated because so many pilots were lost -When the P-51 Mustangs were introduce the training decelerated and training changed -The P-51 allowed for long range escort of bombers -As a result fewer pilots were being lost which meant fewer pilots were needed -This resulted in major cuts to the pilot training program (up to 80% cuts) (00:17:42) Transfer to Armament School -He was offered three transfer choices: armament school, engineer school, or radio school -He requested a transfer to the 16th Infantry Regiment, but was denied -Army felt that too much time and money had been invested in him to go into the infantry -He decided to go into the armament school -There were eight weeks of armament training followed by eight weeks of gunner training -Trained in Kingman, Arizona and then in Plant Park, Florida -At Plant Park met his crew for the B-17 that he would be serving on -He and his crew were sent to Drew Field, Florida for overseas training -Learning how to be a crewmember on the B-17 bomber -Getting acquainted with the other crewmembers (00:21:44) Training Details -He had gotten to fly the PT-22 solo before he was cut from the Aviation Cadet program -The original place he had been sent for armament training was Lowry Field, Colorado -Learned how to dismantle and put back together the .50 caliber machine gun -Learned how to maintain a .50 caliber machine gun mid-flight -Learned how to get a ball-turret gunner into the ball-turret of a bomber -Learned about the various positions of turrets on bombers -During training he was issued a .45 caliber pistol -During gunnery training he was trained on how to fire the .50 caliber machine gun -First part of training was riding around on a pickup shooting at clay pigeons -Later phases involved being on a B-17 and firing at targets towed by another plane �-Spent 6-8 weeks training in armament and gunnery (00:26:15) Deployment to Europe -He and his crew picked up a B-17G bomber and flew it around Georgia -From Georgia flew up to Bradley Field, Connecticut -From Connecticut flew to Goose Bay, Labrador, Canada -Spent a night there while an engine was changed out -From Goose Bay flew to Iceland -It was a long flight that heavily relied on the navigator’s abilities -Over the course of the war 1000 planes were lost flying to Europe due to bad navigation -Before landing in Iceland they had to fly around Greenland to search for U-Boats -Spent a few nights in Iceland waiting for an engine to be replaced -Arrived in Iceland during the winter of 1944 -Remembers having guard shifts on the plane and having to sleep on it -Luckily for him they had plenty of blankets, so it wasn’t too awful -They were at Keflavik Air Station -Remembers seeing little kids unfazed by the cold walking around in summer clothes -From Iceland flew to Valley, Wales -Got to have a hot bath and hot food (00:34:01) Assignment to the 490th Bombardment Group -After Wales flew down to Royal Air Force Eye air station to join the 490th Bomb Group -They lived in a Quonset hut that housed two other crews -Slept on bunk beds and the mattresses were grain bags stuffed with hay -No insulation whatsoever and relied on a single pot-bellied stove -Had to feed it compressed paper rings that had been used for shipping bombs -Had the option to collect coal from passing trains, but chose not to -Civilians in the area needed the coal more than they did -Arrived at RAF Eye in April 1945 -At the time of their arrival not many missions were being flown into Germany -All major targets had been destroyed already (00:38:12) Flying Missions -During WWII he and his crew flew only a handful of missions into Germany -Towards the end of the war bomber crew positions were being eliminated and shifted -For instance, the radioman also was going to be a gunner -His gunner position was eliminated and he was shifted to a new position on the bomber -The major threat to them was the flak from German antiaircraft guns -The way to combat flak was with a substance called chaff (aluminum, glass, and plastic) -His job was to throw chaff out of the bomber to interfere with German radar -Without their radar the Germans couldn’t pinpoint the bombers and fire on them -Towards the end of the war the Air Corps adopted the strategy of blanket (or carpet) bombing -During missions bombers had to fly at different altitudes in their formation to create a box -This allowed for greater defense, but also avoided the threat of prop wash -Heavy turbulence created behind the propellers -On his first mission he saw a German fighter jet -Didn’t quite know how to handle it -They didn’t have tracer rounds which would have helped to shoot down the jet -On missions P-51 Mustangs were everywhere around the bombers �-For the missions that he did fly during wartime they always flew deep into Germany -There were still some targets left on the coast of France though -Fortresses and a few minor German airfields -They flew at 25,000 feet and the jets could only stay up long enough for one pass -When the jets retreated the P-51s followed them down to their base -Gave the P-51s the chance to destroy them on the runway -During the missions they didn’t lose any aircraft, or any airmen (00:51:22) Post-German Surrender Service -After Germany surrendered he and his crew were kept in England [recalled after interview session that he flew relief missions over the Netherlands to supply food] -One of their missions was to fly into Orly Air Base, France to collect freed political prisoners -Before they could allow them on the bomber they had to be disinfected -Had to spray them down with a sprayer full of the pesticide DDT -During one of their post-war missions their tail-gunner had an epileptic episode -He was never allowed to fly again -Made him realize that none of them had any formal medical training from the Army (00:54:16) Downtime -In the Quonset hut there was always a poker game being played -During downtime they would play softball, or go into town for a beer -He got to visit London once while he was in England and stayed at the Red Cross Club (00:56:20) End of Service -Final bit of overseas service was to help close down the 490th Bomb Group in England -Returned home for ninety days of leave -During those ninety days the atomic bombs were dropped and Japan surrendered -Reported to MacDill Field, Florida to wrap up his service and be discharged -Temporarily joined their football team as a running guard -Played alongside three All-American players -Practicing in full gear in Florida heat was hellish -Went to play his first game and the coach passively kicked him off the team -Coach told him to drive his car back to base -He was discharged in December 1945 before Christmas -He was offered the chance to reenlist and be promoted and given a pay raise -The trade-off was that he would have had to go to Germany as part of the occupation -He declined because he wanted to be able to go home for Christmas (01:02:49) Life after the War -Hitchhiked back to Governor’s Island, New York -Remembers on Governor’s Island there was a group of Italian prisoners of war -During the war they had grown food, cooked, and built furniture to sell it -Still has some of that Italian furniture today -None of them ever tried to escape the camp, and some even became U.S. citizens -During the war his mother had moved to Brooklyn -He wound up marrying the daughter of the new commander of Governor’s Island -Stayed married for sixty six years until her death -His father-in-law personally knew Douglas MacArthur and Dwight D. Eisenhower -He and his wife were able to attend his father-in-law’s retirement ceremony -Remembers that when he became a father he was working three jobs at one time �-Went back to high school and graduated so that he could get into college -He went to college at Pace Institute (now Pace University) in Manhattan, New York City -Majored in accounting and graduated from there -Went to the American Bridge Company and became an industrial engineering apprentice -Trained as an apprentice for three years -From there joined Avon Products in New York -Became the manager of the industrial engineering department -He got placed in charge of making better packaging for shipping their products -Products were getting damaged en route to their destinations -From Avon became the director of packaging for Elizabeth Arden, Inc. -From Elizabeth Arden he was recruited by a new Michigan-based company called Amway (01:13:14) Reflections on Service -He never really planned on looking back on his service after leaving the Army -Partially regrets the decision to have gone into armament school instead of engineering, or radio -Realized that the only application his training had was in the military -His service instilled in him the idea of having good group morale, or esprit de corps -Always tried to carry that idea, and mindset through life -Over the years he kept in close contact with the other members of the crew -He is now the sole surviving member of his bomber crew -He attended a few reunions, but he was the only one of his crew to go -He just didn’t feel as close with the other airmen as he did with his crew 01:16:36 Interview Ends � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_FranceG1696V Title A name given to the resource France, Gerald (Interview outline and video), 2014 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-09-11 Description An account of the resource Gerald France was born in 1925 in New York City. He grew up on Governor's Island, New York City, the home of the 16th Infantry Regiment. He left high school in 1944 to join the Army Air Corps. He qualified for flight training and went through the early stages of it, but was reassigned to armament school due to a lack of need for pilots. He trained at different bases and joined a B-17 crew that flew to England in April, 1945, joining the 490th Bomb Group at Eye Air Station. They flew several missions over Germany and against isolated German forts in France. When the war ended, they flew relief missions, including ferrying political prisoners. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource France, Gerald Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Air Corps Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c07421cde92d0987cd4dd240e30be68f.mp4 8bf0bf11a896e804c3cff1d156ba24a5 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ce8d84cc928abc936a143a8cff5ebae0.pdf 508b280ee2d456382ad29c3a13d3d41d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Cold War Era Gord Youngquist 2:03:35 Background information (00:07)            Born April 12th 1956 in Wheaton, Illinois (a small suburb of Chicago) (00:10) He lived there till he was 4 and then moved to Fennville, Michigan (approx 1960)(00:12) He attended School in Fennville (00:20) In Illinois his father worked as an editor for a magazine publisher. When he came to Michigan he worked as the chief engineer at John Thomas Batts He finished high school in 1975 (1:16) After graduation he attended school at Farris State University (Approx 1975-1977) (1:18) He decided March of 1977 to go into the Coast Guard (1:30) He Joined the Coast Guard in order to get the sea time needed to upgrade his captain’s license. (1:40) At this time he also wished to avoid the conflicts occurring in Vietnam [although these were over by then](3:05) He also did not want to hurt or kill people (3:25) Did not support the political reason for or action of Vietnam (4:01) Basic Training (5:30)          He attended boot camp in Cape May, New Jersey (Approx. 1977)(5:40) His first station had been at Group Saint Petersburg in Saint Petersburg Florida(5:45) Boot Camp lasted 18 weeks (5:57) The training was geared to educate as well as mentally, emotionally, and physically prepare the trainees for their service (6:15) Boot camp had only taken place on land (6:39) Military discipline had been somewhat in forced during his training, but not to the same degree that is seen in the marines or army. (7:00) When entering training he was deemed an E1 or a Seaman Recruit. (7:42) Much of the early training had been for first aid and emergency medical preparedness (8:00) Of the men he trained alongside, approx 80% had been of “no class,” had worked before, and had at least graduated high school. (8:55) �   Most men who entered boot camp had stayed with the program until its completion. (9:55) In between his first assignment and boot camp, he had been given 1 week's leave (10:43) He started out as a buoy tender. Here he scraped slime off of buoys used for navigation (11:03) Service in Saint Petersburg (11:00)            The buoys had first been secured on a ship he worked on before the maintenance of the buoys could begin (11:45) He was a buoy tender in Saint Petersburg Florida for approx. 2.5 years (approx 1978- 1979 or 1980) (13:02) An off base apartment was aloud for Coast Guard members as there had been no base housing (13:21) His pay as a jr. Coast Guard man had been approx 140 dollars a week (13:50) If men were willing, breakfast, lunch, and dinner could be provided on the ships. However at liberty time (3:00 PM) many of the men would leave the ship. (14:40) He served “1 and 3” duty. Every third day a man was required to stay on aboard the ship for a night shift to serve watch while the ship was docked. (15:20) These watch sessions were typically fairly calm while in Saint Petersburg (16:00) Women Coast Guard members had been stationed in St. Petersburg but not on the boats. They typically had more administrative office type jobs. (16:45) In spite of the negative opinion the public had over Vietnam in this era, the Coast Guard did not seem to have any difficulty recruiting (17:37) He desired to go transfer to a small boat station. These locations had been responsible for search and rescue as well as law enforcement. To do this he had to complete a request.(18:40) Small boat stations were also seen to have more of a family bond. (19:12) Service at Cortez Station (approx 1981) (20:00)      The first small boat station he served at was Cortez (19 miles west of Bradenton Florida) (20:04) 35 to 40 men had been stationed at this station at the time (20:55) 2, 41 foot ships, 2, 30 foot boats a small boat (approx 20 feet long with an Avon) had been stationed at Cortez (21:01) While at Cortez he responded to a shrimping boat call in which a man aboard had a heart attack. (22:15) His station did very little bad weather rescue as the ships Cortez were not capable of handling violent storms. (23:55) �   Most of the drug trafficking law enforcement things he had done had been the sizing of marijuana (25:00) Most of the sea crimes he encountered had fairly compliant suspects who did not fight back when apprehended (25:40) He served at Cortez for 8 months (Approx mid late 1980 to early 1981)(26:50) Service in Sarasota Florida (Flotilla 8-4 approx 1981) (26:55)               Next he served in Sarasota Florida on an 82 foot patrol boat (26:55) While serving here, one could either live on the boat or live In an apartment (27:30) Having one’s own space (such as an apartment) was highly valued. (28:00) This ship often patrolled past the 12 mile limit looking for vestals suspected of carrying illegal contraband (28:28) While on patrol he seized 30 tons of illegal contraband. (29:37) Many jobs on the ship could be done by any man on the ship regardless of ranks. (33:55) During the extensive periods his ship would spend out at sea (1-13 days at a time) encounters with suspicious ships had been rare. (33:59) Search and rescue had been the primary priority. (34:25) 1 out of 4 calls to the crew had been a search and rescue job. (34:56) Had been a Thatcher for approx 13-14 months. (approx 1981-1982)(38:30) At this point his time had been up in the Coast Guard. However, he had been transferred back to the group for administrative liaison for the Coast Guard auxiliary (38:40) The last 72 hours of his Coast Guard duty he applied to work a new session aboard a 283 foot ice breaker. Here he was given the position of the ships 3rd Quartermaster. (38:27) Before being placed on his new assignment on the ice breaker, he had been given 2 weeks leave. (40:01) He left 5 days early to accommodate his living arrangements in the areas in which the ice breaker would dock. (40:28) Service aboard the ice breaker (1982) (40:30)    The ice breaker left port and would be out at sea for a period ranging 4-6 months (40:45) The ships tasks included assisting scientist in conducting arctic surveys, as well as making routs for supply ships to reach areas such as Tully Greenland where an air base had been located. (41:47) His motive for working on an ice breaker had been to get more sea time and experience. (41:40) �                       Because of the sea time and experience he acquired during this period of his service, he was able to obtain an unlimited Masters License when he was out of the Coast Guard (42:08) Often the first thing that sailors would do aboard the ship was find their own little “nook” or personal living space (42:59) His experience on this ship exposed him to particular environmental sights (mountains, native peoples, glaciers) that he otherwise would not have seen. (43:18) He got seal skin and ivory as a souvenirs from some native arctic peoples. (45:30) On one expedition scientist aboard the ship had excavated ice and found plankton as well as leaf growth in the glacier. (46:15) It was not odd to have at least three scientist on board the ship during any particular voyage (47:40) He served 25-30 voyages aboard this vessel (47:58) He served in the Coastguard for 10 years (approx 1977-1987)(48:05) On his final voyage aboard this vessel, the ship hit a growler (portion of an ice berg located under water.) the following morning he spotted some brown matter in the water. Using a lead line and a rag to inspect the actual damaged area, he was able to deduce what was leaking was diesel fuel. As a result of this the ship was shut down, as running out of fuel in a remote location would be disastrous. (48:17) When having to go outside the ship on to the ice, some men would be armed with M16s in case of a polar bear attack. (52:00) After a quick patch was made on the ship, the vessel went to a shipyard in Scotland for repairs. (52:42) The improvised repair to the ship had been done so well, that the men in the ship yard in Scotland said they could not have done a better job. (53:06) The man doing the repair (Bill) got his name in the Guinness book of world records for the most north repair. (53:08) One trip so the South Pole was made while he served on this vessel. (54:28) This trek to the south pole took 6th months. (54:50) On a voyage this long, finding peace and quiet or time to one’s self was immensely valued. (55:28) The purpose of the South Pole voyage was simply to break ice to make a way for supply vessels. (25 feet thick sheets of ice needed to be broken.) (55:47) The most ice the vessel ever cracked while he served was 35 feet thick. (56:08) Five miles a day was considered fairly good progress. (56:40) His sleeping area had been by the portion of the ship used to for cracking ice and it had been very loud (57:10) The South Pole was incredibly dry and very little if any precipitation was seen. (58:48) A thermal pack was used by seamen in order to protect their skin from the harsh arctic conditions. (58:28) The ship compiled weather information using wet bulb thermometers, dry bulb thermometers, barometric pressure, wind measurements, sun angle, and existing �      condition. Most measurements could be taken from inside the ship but the thermometers had to be checked outside the ship (59:53) Even in the fridge temperatures of the South Pole the engine room had temperatures of 120 degrees. (1:00:52) For all men aboard the ship, many of the environmental challenges they simply adapted to or “got used to” (1:01:15) When making South Pole expeditions, the ship rarely stopped in ports save for the stop at the Panama Cannel during the voyage down from the northern Hemisphere. (1:01:40) One of the places the ice breaker did stop during its South Pole voyages had been the most southern tip of South America. (1:02:04) However when sailing around the areas by the horn (the most southern tip of South America) the ship had been primarily in open ocean (1:02:46) It was very important to stay focused while on duty, otherwise one seaman could end up injuring another. (1:03:53) Dramatic Accounts from service in Florida (Saint Petersburg) (1:05:34)           On September 10th 1979, while stationed in St. Petersburg Florida, he had been involved in a motorcycle accident. Resulting in 4 compound fractures in right leg his leg, a split sternum, 2 breaks in his hip, and a skull fracture. He woke up from a coma 2 weeks after the accident. (1:05:50) After the accident, doctors wanted to amputate his leg. (1:06:44) Unwilling to stay in his hospital bed, he was placed in epileptic cuffs which he snapped. This lead to a physiologist stating that his will to live was unbelievably strong. (1:06:50) In an effort to save his leg, the Coast Guard sent him to Tampa Florida where the 3rd best orthopedic surgeon in the U.S. at the time would operate on him. (1:07:37) At the time of the accident he had been stationed in Saint Petersburg, however was on liberty (1:08:23) Was in the hospital from September 10th 1979 to May 5th 1980 (the date he walked on his own with a healed leg for the first time) (1:09:28) The Coast Guard considered having him retire from service as a result of the injuries. He had been sent to New Orleans (approx February-March of 1980) for a medical survey to figure out if he was to be discharged (1:09:57) He had been informed about a new procedure called a bone growth stimulator. Showing this to his doctor, he decided to go through with the new procedure. A week later, Gord had become the 3rd person in the U.S. to have the bone growth simulator implanted. He also went through the procedure without anesthetic. (1:11:11) 6 weeks after the surgery, the bone had been filled and completely healed. (1:13:38) He accredits the opportunity to have this procedure down largely to being in the right place at the right time and luck. (1:15:05) �  After his leg had healed he was placed back in Saint Petersburg and was placed on full duty. (1:15:55) He then served temporary duty on a steadfast (210 foot parole boat.) (1:16:09) The Blackthorn Disaster (January 28th 1980) (1:16:55)                  The Coast Guard cutter Blackthorn had been originally in Tampa Florida at a ship yard and underwent a total switch out of all crew members. (1:17:18) The Blackthorn had been outbound from Tampa were as the Capricorn had been inbound to Tampa. During this time a large storm enabled either captain to see. During the storm the Capricorn side swiped the Blackthorn and tore a hole approx. 80 feet long approx 40 feet from the water line (1:17:44) 6 people of a full crew (approx 282) survived the Blackthorn ship wreck. (1:18:35) At the time he had been on body recovery. (1:18:55) In spite being in a cast and having crutches at the time of the wreck (January of 1980) he had been called aboard to assist with body recovery. The 3rd day after the Blackthorn ship wreck, divers had located the vessel. (1:20:39) The Harbor in Tampa Bay had been closed as a result of the ship wreck. (1:21:05) The bodies had been recovered after 3 days in salt water. The skin of the deceased had been pale while with bite makes from fish. While attempting to remove a body from the water, Gord grabbed a hold of the bodies arm. While trying to pull him in the boat, the limb detached from the body and it had been dismembered. (1:21:35) As a result of this he had been subjected to a large amount of emotional distress as a result of no knowing how to react. (1:22:30) To get the bodies aboard the ship he suggested they use the crane aboard the ship as well as a helicopter basket (a gurney) with the flotation devices removed (1:23:30) After being placed aboard ship, the bodies were placed into black unmarked body bags that were then stacked at the bow of the ship (1:24:42) The stack of bodies had been approx. 6 feet tall 20 feet across and 30 feet to the bow.(1:25:12) It had been very emotionally traumatizing for him to have this experience and yet not know any of the men or their names. (1:25:24) After the bodies had been removed from the wreck, the Commandant of the United States Coast Guard gave all the men meritorious commendation medals to the men. But Gord pushed it off and let it fall to the floor. He did not want to be given a medal for picking up dead bodies. (1:26:00) The Blackthorn event was the most prolific nautical disaster that he had experienced or knew of during peace time. (1:27:59) The media coverage of the Blackthorn ship wreck had been fairly extensive with helicopters and boats covering the event. (1:28:33) The base, however, had been restricted from media coverage and the men evolved in the rescue we’re told not to say a word. (1:28:55) �Experience with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) (1:30:00)              To this date he has not held a job over 30 days, due in part to the psychological effects his service has had on him. Some jobs we’re held for a week others for an hour. (1:30:13) He had checked into a mental hospital in his local area (Michigan) and then went to the Veterans Administration (V.A.) hospital in Grand Rapids Michigan. (1:30:34) When at the V.A. hospital in Battle Creek he had been diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder (approx. 1990) (1:30:54) He noticed he had been emotionally instable. He often would have short burst of anger or would cry over something he saw on television. He would often even cry and not realize he was crying. (1:31:28) He very much cherishes the relationship of understanding that he shares with other veterans. (1:31:57) He believes that the returning veterans from the Iraq War will over whelm the V.A. system due to PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder) (1:32:55) He states that soldiers who wish to come home and live anything close to a normal life again need the V.A. for help. (1:34:00) He believes that the amount of help that is available for veterans who return from service is fantastic. (1:34:35) Because of his traumatizing experiences he had woken up one night to find that he had dragged his girlfriend out of bed in his sleep. (1:35:34) He states that the memory of his service is still very much still there. (1:36:25) He rid his home of all his “personal protection devices” (hand guns, knives) due to the fear that he might hurt someone accidentally or that he might be “triggered”(1:36:59) He had been called in to court for trespassing charges, which he has no memory of ever doing. (1:37:22) In World War II post traumatic stress disorder was called combat fatigue (1:40:25) The Sunshine Sky way Bridge Disaster (May 9th 1980) (1:41:00)     the Sunshine bridge disaster and the Blackthorn disaster happened very close to one another (1:41:20) during this incident, he served in the operations center handling the coming and going of ships (1:42:21) Approx. 6 vehicles had fallen into the water from the bridge. (1:42:58) He had been in high school at the time of the Fitzgerald ship wreck (1:47:25) �Addition information (1:48:00)            He had been discharged due to his inability to serve his duties. This had been largely as a result of the experiences on the Blackthorn disaster. (1:49:23) He reports that even his physical movements where altered and difficult. (1:50:10) A friend of his who had PTSD would often simply stare when having attacks and during these periods he was not to be bothered until he recovered himself from the episode. (1:51:45) His PTSD has lead to “rages” or periods of sudden violent outbreaks. (1:53:16) The triggers for his PTSD can be as wide ranging as the absence of his electric bill to a broken speak plug. (1:53:30) Some times Gord can feel the attacks coming on, other it is almost instantaneous. (1:55:00) He feels the need to have a certain amount of money readily available to deal with potential fines or court orders that may arise as a result of his PTSD condition. (1:56:11) Due to his condition he is unable to operate an automobile. This has lead to many inconveniences (1:58:15) On his dresser he has approx. 15 bottles of medication in order to help with cope with his situation. (1:59:20) Best therapy he has had was at the V.F.W. ((2:01:11) Isolation for individuals with this condition is dangerous (2:01:08) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_YoungquistG1287V Title A name given to the resource Youngquist, Gord (Interview outline and video), 2011 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-11-02 Description An account of the resource Gord Youngquist served in the United States Coast Guard from 1977 to 1987. During this period Gord served in a wide variety of positions and locations from Cortez Florida, Sarasota Florida, Saint Petersburg Florida, as well as aboard an ice breaker that did voyages in both the Northern and Southern hemispheres. In this interview, Gord recounts his time in all of these location, particularly Saint Petersburg Florida, where he helped on both the Blackthorn as well as the Sunshine Bridge disasters. Gord also accounts the repercussions his service has had on him as well as his struggle living with PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Youngquist, Gord Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Coast Guard Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2e8ddfe60ff446e37caf04dd638cab4f.mp4 89f805a717e12a3be00a1b5fb5a3f064 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/896a94fe90d035df154cd7af8d5fbf65.pdf 910c702ef10c2862e84e6f2c58e8d34e PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview World War II Thomas York Length of interview (00:47:19) Background Information (00:00:12)  Born in Baltimore, Maryland in July of 1927  Moved to Oklahoma in 1929 (00:00:23) o Remained in Oklahoma until 1941  Father worked in the oil fields during the depression (00:00:31)  Mother was a school teacher o Had taught in Grand Rapids, Michigan  1941- The York family moves to Wayland, Michigan  York describes life in Oklahoma in the 1930’s (00:01:01) o Lived in the town of Britton o Father had been a pilot in WWI o Oklahoma was “a flying country” (00:01:30) o York remembers that his father was a “very natural mechanic” and worked for General Motors when the family first moved to Oklahoma  The family moved up to Michigan before the attack on Pearl Harbor (00:02:55)  York knew about the war in Europe, and remembers being worried about the possibility of being attacked by Japan o Learned about the war primarily in school , although it was in Civics class and none of the information was new (00:03:46) o Information was heavily censored (00:04:15)  York heard about the attack on Pearl Harbor on the radio (00:04:50) o Followed the war through the letters of GIs from Wayland o Was a very patriotic time, many young men signing up for the service  When York was 16, he went to enlist and was accepted. o When York graduated from high school at 17, he entered the service (00:06:44) o A parent’s signature to enlist was not needed, even though York was a minor  York was called to active duty July 1st of 1945 (00:07:20) Training (00:07:21)  Air Force basic training squadron was out of Biloxi, Mississippi o Basic training had a lot of emphasis on physical training (00:07:41)  Marching, cross-country running  York was in great shape, remembers training being easy for him o Reenlisted after his 6 months were over, rather than be drafted (00:09:01)  Was discharged from the Air Force and reenlisted in the Army Air Force  Didn’t want to be a mechanic  Sent to Greensboro, North Carolina (00:09:20) o Finished training and shipped out to New York in less than a month  Shipped out of New York in October or November �o Shipped out on an NYU Victory ship  V-hulled, bunks were 18 beds high, and rolling over was impossible  Small ship—900 troops packed into the ship  York slept on deck after the first night, he wasn’t supposed to but he hid in a life boat (00:10:27)  York remembers there being very little food.  Lunch was a cup of soup and two crackers  Spent 31 days on the ship o Went to Casablanca, then Naples in Italy  WWII is over, but many men were still being shipped to Europe (00:11:46)  Remembers the Straits of Gibraltar as still being dangerous, even after the war o Torpedoes, submarines, and mines (00:13:19) Italy (00:14:00)  The stop in Casablanca was a one day stop. York did not get to leave the ship.  First impression of Naples was of a city on a hill o Could see Mt. Vesuvius o Stayed in Naples for a week or two o The weather was warm, similar to Georgia or Alabama  Sent to Caserta, Italy (00:15:00) o About 18 miles inland o Allied Headquarters Command at that time  Both British and American troops were stationed there  German prison camp located within Caserta as well o Was a clerk in the medical area.  kept track of supplies o When the First Sergeant became a Lieutenant, York took his former position (00:17:26) o The officers did not seem to do anything, but were “your friend” (00:20:15) o The British were also on the base (00:22:10)  Describes the British o Talks about the German prisoners of war (00:23:02)  Describes one German prisoner who taught himself English o The prison camp was a separate compound from the base in Caserta (00:25:50) o York went to Naples every weekend o York spent over a year in Italy (00:27:20) o York got to ride in an aircraft carrier  Air Force food was the best o York describes the Italian civilian population (00:30:10)  One popular restaurant the GIs went to for eggs and fried potatoes  Many children visited the base  The only warning York received was not to park a vehicle on the street because it would get stolen o York does not recall many discipline problems within the base (00:33:11) o The USO came in four or five times for entertainment o York talks about a monastery that had been destroyed and was going to be �rebuilt o Rome was almost untouched by the war due to historical significance o The German prisoners were allowed to go home, but many who lived in the communist zone did not want to leave (00:38:33)  The prisoners did not have a choice to stay, but were sent home regardless  The majority of the prisoners were still in Caserta when York went home  The SS prisoners were not separated from the other prisoners Return to the United States (00:41:17)  The ship York returned to the United States on was a lousy vessel o The return trip was much worse, although men who had gotten married in Europe were bringing their wives home (ship was gender segregated) (00:41:48) o The first thing York saw was Coney Island, then the harbor, then finally the Statue of Liberty o Took about 20 days to cross the Atlantic o Took about a week to process him before he was released  After returning home, York worked at Pet Mill (00:44:10) o Went to Florida o Went on a blind date with the woman who became his wife o Went to Kendall for art school  Worked graphic design for Spartan stores for a while  After retiring, became a graphic design consultant for around 10 years Conclusions about the war (00:45:28)  The war made York grow up o Saw a lot of the world o Never really returned home, had gained independence o Gained leadership and teamwork skills during the service  York wanted out at the time, but now he wonders why he did not make it his career � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_YorkT Title A name given to the resource York, Thomas (Interview outline and video), 2010 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-01-13 Description An account of the resource Thomas York was born in Baltimore, Maryland in 1927. His family moved first to Oklahoma, then to Michigan. York enlisted in the US Air Force at 16, and after graduating at 17, entered active duty on July 1st of 1945. York underwent basic training at the base in Biloxi, Mississippi. York re-enlisted after his 6 months of duty were finished in the US Army Air Force. York was sent to Caserta, Italy, where he served for a year as a medical clerk. While at Caserta, York met British military personnel and German prisoners of war. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource York, Thomas Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Air Forces Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/843d83917c190866fd2267cdaca1923d.m4v c8ad12bf18f33cd333e60ae14ed68e8f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f717ac0fb41be0e857b4a73fccefd499.pdf 7fb1b5d70378efc42152260cfa8938f7 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project Vietnam War Michael Yocum Interview Length: (01:38:51:00) Early Life / Training / Pre-Vietnam Service (00:00:33:00)  Born in Seattle, Washington and raised in the Mount St. Helens area (00:00:33:00)  Joined the Air Force right out of high school; when testing to get into the military, his test score was a seventy-five, only ten points above the lower limit (00:00:43:00)  Only two services had jet aircraft, the Air Force or Navy (00:01:25:00) o Yocum had high ranking relatives in the Navy and he did not want to run into either of them and the Navy would not guarantee him what he asked for (00:01:35:00) o The Air Force gave him a signed contract that he would he asked for, so long as he passed their school, which he did (00:01:53:00)  Going into the Air Force was the only way that Yocum was going to get to work on jets because they had none of the technical schools at the time (00:02:08:00)  Signed a six month delayed enlistment but he forgot to read the final line at the bottom, which said, “Or to the needs of the service” (00:02:26:00)  Command called the recruiter and told him to pick up Yocum and get him down to Portland, Oregon to ship out (00:02:48:00) o Portland was a major military processing center, everybody except Coast Guard went through and was where recruits had their physicals and received their assignments (00:03:01:00)  Yocum’s assignment was Lackland Air Force Base, San Antonio, Texas (00:03:23:00)  Boot camp was a lark because Yocum was an athlete and in good physical shape and although it was a lark, there still was discipline and the men learned to be military (00:03:48:00)  After boot camp, he want to Amarillo Air Force Base for training as a jet aircraft mechanic (00:04:18:00) o They also had heavy aircraft at the base and Strategic Air Command (SAC) tried to get him to switch but Yocum said “no, he wanted fighters, not bombers” (00:04:33:00) o When in school, he had a contract saying that he would not get certain things (00:04:49:00)  In training, he worked on trainer aircraft, aircraft that for some reason were not flyable, but were good for someone to learn how to repair them (00:05:11:00) o Some of the parts were wore out due to the number of times they had come on and off (00:05:29:00) o Would go through sections, beginning with a basic section – the aerodynamics of the aircraft, and moving up (00:05:34:00) �   o There was both classroom and practical training (00:05:54:00) Started training on the F-80, the first jet aircraft in the Air Force inventory and he also worked on the F-100 and the F-101 (00:06:28:00) Completed training in Amarillo and was then assigned to Glasgow Air Force Base in Montana, a SAC base (00:07:14:00) o Fighter mechanics did not have good SAC appetites (00:07:28:00) o Yocum was assigned the job of transient alert, taking care of the planes coming into the base, i.e. non-base aircraft (00:07:39:00)  Most were fighters coming in from the West Coast headed east or vice versa (00:07:46:00) o The base was out of the way but a perfect drop-off spot (00:07:54:00) o Was at Glasgow for approximately eighteen months (00:08:01:00) o Worked twelve hours on and then thirty-six hours off (00:08:13:00)  They had to have crew that was alert and ready to go on when needed; like a fireman, many hours of twittling their thumbs then instant action (00:08:24:00) o One of Yocum’s jobs was taking out the “follow me” truck and bringing in the B-52’s drag chutes, which weighed six hundred pounds (00:08:43:00) o Had an excellent group to work with and they got along well (00:09:07:00) Then went to RAF Bentwater in Great Britain (00:09:13:00) o Learned quickly that in Europe, when they mentioned a Sunday driver, he moved away from the driver because it referred to a driver that could afford to only drive one day a week (00:09:20:00) o One time, another guy went to the beach, became too tired and tried to return home the next day and he and Yocum went up opposite sides of a hill and they both ended up in Yocum’s lane (00:09:36:00)  They crashed and Yocum had fourteen major fractures of the face and lower jaw (00:09:53:00) o Yocum was in the hospital for two months (00:10:11:00)  The Air Force had to send him to a civilian hospital because they did not have the proper equipment on the base or the time to get him to the better hospital at Leighton because he was so injured (00:10:19:00) o Dr. Gay, the surgeon who worked on Yocum, specialized in facial reconstruction and when Yocum arrived, Dr. Gay came in to check on another patient and ended up picking to work on Yocum, saying that he was the doctor’s to work on (00:10:37:00) o He had to sit on the gurney because when they would lay him down, the bones would move, causing pain; two police officers tried to do it at the accident site and Yocum “threw them about twenty feet” (00:11:12:00) o Dr. Gay really put his face back together and Yocum only lost two teeth in the accident, although because of the accident, through the years, he has slowly lost his teeth (00:11:33:00) �     Could not have a facial injury and he does not get into situations that made an injury possible, including riding horses (00:11:55:00) o The Air Force made checks on him, including sending a specialist, but Dr. Gay would not sign off on until he believed Yocum would be safe to go back (00:12:35:00)  The Air Force could not have gotten him the same quality of care at Leighton because they did not have the same quality of surgeons (00:12:51:00)  Dr. Gay rebuilt his face to the point that someone could not tell Yocum had been in an accident and the only way to tell was to look at pictures from before and after the accident (00:13:05:00) o When he got out of the hospital, he was given light duty for six months and not allowed to even go into a hanger, for fear that he might fall, so he worked on tech orders i.e. filing the changes (00:13:19:00) From Great Britain, he went to Maxwell Air Base in Montgomery, Alabama, which was strictly an officer’s training base (00:13:59:00) o Still worked transient alert, although now he had twenty four hours on then seventy two hours off and one day off a month, meaning he had a seven day period when he did not have to report to duty (00:14:21:00) o Spent off time having a blast and when he was there, he volunteered for Vietnam, but they turned him down three times before they allowed him to go (00:14:44:00) o The air base had a federal penitentiary on one side, so the base was locked down several times whenever someone got out (00:15:04:00) o Had no issues with officers and staying at Maxwell caused him to look at officers as persons, rather than as entities (00:15:22:00)  Once a month, they had a code-seven fly into the base, a full colonel or above, for conferences and everyone else they parked in the “outback 40” and took care of them when they could (00:15:34:00) o That was the one time he saw a real F-80, who came in from Mexico with guns loaded and rockets armed and they had to call an Army missile base to send someone down to dearm the aircraft; the aircraft turned out to be an original 1950’s model aircraft (00:15:55:00) The Air Force turned down his Vietnam requests because they did not want to have to replace him; they had somebody good and they tried to hold on to him (00:16:51:00) o He knew he would have to go to Vietnam so instead of being grabbed and given non-volunteer status, he wanted volunteer status (00:17:01:00) From Maxwell, he spent three months at Clovis Air Force Base in New Mexico training on the F-100 aircraft and from Clovis, he went to Phan Rang Air Force Base in September, 1967 (00:17:14:00) Not everyone in a squadron went to Vietnam at the same time; they started with the ground crew, then the NCOs to train the ground crew and then the officers (00:17:41:00) �     On most aircraft, to change a tire, they would slide the main wheel over the brake but on the F-100, they put on the main wheel then slid in the main brake, attach the hydraulic system, and bleed the hydraulic system (00:18:08:00) o A main tire change on the F-100 took and hour and a quarter of work, but when working on the F-101, twenty-five minutes and Yocum was done changing the tire (00:18:28:00) Taking the aft section off the F-100 to fix the engine was difficult; most aircraft allowed the engine to drop out, but with the F-100, they had to take the tail section off (00:18:42:00) The F-100 was the first of the serious dedicated fighters, including afterburners (00:19:04:00) o Afterburners were a kick in the butt when the pilot wanted to move, but they used copious amounts of fuel, so if a pilot used afterburners, he used them with caution (00:19:29:00) The crew Yocum worked with got to the point when they did an aft section off, people thought is was a Chinese fire drill (00:19:49:00) o Yocum’s first job was to get onto the back of the aircraft and put the engine hanger until the others pinned the engine so it would not roll out of the aircraft (00:20:12:00) o Another one of Yocum’s jobs was breaking loose the four nuts that held the aft section on and once the repair was complete, Yocum’s job was to torque the nuts back into place (00:20:38:00)  Took three thousands foot pounds (one hundred and forty four inch pounds to a foot pound) to torque the nuts back into place, whereas an average car tire requires sixty to eighty inch pounds to be torqued (00:21:01:00) Was at Clovis to learn the F-100 and its inner sequences and to get him over to Vietnam, where he could be working and training at the same time (00:21:47:00) Vietnam Deployment (00:22:05:00)  Flew on a commercial aircraft leased to the military on an eighteen hour flight in a packed 707 aircraft (00:22:05:00)  Passengers were all military personnel because Cam Ranh was the dispersal point in Vietnam and when they deplaned in Cam Ranh, they divided up amongst the different services (00:22:25:00)  Getting into Cam Ranh was stepping into a sauna bath; high moisture and high heat, but he was used to it from growing up where he did on the upper West Coast (00:23:00:00)  At Phan Rang, he was assigned to the 352nd Attack Fighter Squadron, which was flying F-100s at the time (00:23:43:00) o Nothing on the base except F-100s and OV-10’s, an observation aircraft used to drop markers on Charlie for the F-100s to attack (00:23:51:00)  While a Phan Rang, five or six times, they loaded daisy cutters, a thousand pound bomb with a sixteen foot fuse in front (00:24:16:00) � o The bomb would explode two inches off the ground, leaving no hole but destroying everything above two inches for a five hundred to one thousand foot radius from the impact point (00:24:32:00) o Bombs would destroy anything but was used mainly to create landing zones in the jungle for helicopters (00:24:49:00) o One time while he was there, they had a high priority to get create some landing zones (00:25:02:00)  They knew a North Vietnamese Army Group was in the jungle somewhere and the Air Force ended up finding them serendipitously (00:25:10:00)  The spot the Air Force had chosen to drop the daisy cutters was directly in the middle of the Army Group, leaving nothing much but a sponge job (00:25:20:00) From Cam Ranh, he took a C-131 out to Phan Rang (00:25:56:00) Phan Rang (00:26:06:00)  Good sized base, although today would be considered a medium sized base, with an emergency runway built with planking at the starting of the base and a concrete runway and taxiway (00:26:06:00)  Had three layers of fencing, each one covered with razor darts and tm wire, which would cut through even a leather glove (00:26:33:00)  They also had Army troops at the base and they would wake up at night when the Army stopped firing the 105s because when it was silent was when they worried (00:26:56:00)  One of the first things the enlisted men in the squadron did was look at their bunker and decided it was not safe (00:27:08:00) o They sat, designed, and built a new bunker which could take a 105 round direct hit and not collapse (00:27:26:00) o They tore down the old bunker and proceeded to build a new bunker (00:27:43:00)  Took two 50 gallon barrels, welded them together and filled them with sand and on each side, they had two layers of sandbags and an openings they filled with sand (00:27:46:00)  Covered the roof with old planking and did the same thing with the sandbags (00:28:18:00)  Planking was a honeycombed landing strip designed to be dropped in a place so a plane could land (00:28:32:00)  Coming under fire was not common but it happened enough to make them realize that they needed some kind of protection (00:28:56:00)  They had a new base commander come in about four or five months following the Tet offensive and they received a mortar hit on the base (00:29:07:00) o At the time, Charlie did not have a base line, making it difficult to pinpoint attacks on the base and during the attack, the new commander got on the AM radio and gave Charlie a complete hit report (00:29:24:00) �        o The others drove an APC down to the command center, put the commander into it, drove the APC onto a C-131 and flew the commander out of county (00:30:21:00) o Charlie had no base line to attack the base, not allowing to move their artillery and although the commander was trying to calm people down, he just used the wrong entity to do it with, the unsecure AM radio (00:30:57:00) o The base was hit a more frequently following the incident (00:31:36:00) Incoming fire was mostly mortars (00:31:41:00) o The enemy tried rocket attacks but whenever they would launch the attacks, the Air Force would have something hitting the launch sites and shooting the rockets out of the air (00:31:48:00) They could go off base from seven am to six pm (00:32:02:00) o They had three men from New York who decided to get haircuts at 5:00 and miss curfew and all three ended up dead (00:32:13:00) o If they were off base and it was after six, they were dead (00:32:42:00) They had civilians working on base and if they worked on base after six pm, they stayed on base all night and were released in the morning (00:32:58:00) Vietnam was his best time ever in the service (00:33:18:00) From Vietnam, he went to Mountain Home Air Force Base in Idaho and ended up going to another tech school (00:33:28:00) o At one point, Yocum had a disagreement with an NCO and Yocum gave “him a physics lesson” (00:33:40:00)  They were on the second floor of a building and they did not have landings to go down to the first floor and the NCO told Yocum to do something non-military, which Yocum took affront to (00:33:53:00)  The NCO kept giving Yocum bad reports and one night, he ticked Yocum off too much and Yocum leaned him over the side of the staircase then slammed him against the wall (00:34:10:00) o A week later, Yocum was in another tech school (00:34:33:00) Every base came under attack during the Tet Offensive (00:34:51:00) o The enemy had tunnels between the second and third row of fencing out (00:34:55:00) o First row was the base perimeter then thirty feet out was the second fence and another thirty feet out was the third fence (00:35:02:00) o The army forces defending the base dropped a mortar round directly into the tunnel (00:35:25:00) Everyone was on high alert for all the entire Tet season, meaning sixteen hour days on the line, not including personal time (00:35:37:00) o Normal day was twelve hours a day, six days a week, although sometimes they went up to fourteen (00:35:58:00) o They would get exhausted but would be refreshed by the day off (00:36:10:00) The actual attack on the base did not last long because they had 105 artillery and the infantry and no enemy made it onto the base (00:36:28:00) �      The enemy tried to bombard the base, but this was before they had the base line (00:37:16:00) o They had an Army construction unit on the base, which fixed any problems to the point that the enemy could not tell what had been repaired and what had not (00:37:22:00) o They knew that Charlie sent people in on base as workers but there was not a way for them to tell where the rounds had impacted (00:37:53:00) In thirty days, they had a turnover of the entire squadron from bottom to top (00:38:30:00) o They had ten days to get the bottom troops used to the situation, then on to the NCOs and finally the officers (00:38:38:00) o The officers did not come in with a completely green unit; the others were not ripe, but they were not green either (00:38:57:00) After being in the military for eight to ten years, he could not go to a place without running into someone he knew (00:39:41:00) o The military is a very big small town and the longer Yocum was in, the more he knew, both jobs and people (00:39:53:00) Was at Phan Rang from 1967 to 1968; arrived at the end of his fifth year of service and left at the end of his sixth year (00:40:12:00) In the 352nd, they worked with munitions people; they did not specify only doing specific jobs (00:40:34:00) o When the munitions people were loading the .50 caliber guns, they would tell Yocum readings on instruments around them so that he could do service on them (00:40:48:00) o They worked as teams, splitting each group in half and working on two planes at once (00:41:28:00) o One time, some high ranking officers had to have combat time and at the appointed time, the planes from all three bases squadrons were not ready; within thirty minutes, the 352nd planes were locked, loaded, and moving out (00:41:47:00) The 352nd had a much higher performance level than the other two squadrons on the base (00:42:19:00) o They did not have turf, saying that only a certain man could do a job; if a job needed to be done, then they did it what they could (00:42:21:00) o The enlisted men decided serendipitously to work together, instead of against each other (00:43:12:00) o Munitions had arrived a month before the mechanics; they changed units by months so that there was always crews on hand (00:43:32:00) o There was nothing wrong with doing something you could do to help someone get the job done quicker, which was the whole idea behind working together; the work had to be done, either singly or together, so why do more work than necessary (00:43:54:00) o The major and the captain in the squadron allowed the men to continue working together; there was no animosity as long as the job was being done 100% correctly (00:44:27:00) �     o They worked as a unit, half mechanics / half munitions to get one plane done (00:44:46:00) The pilots were a separate group of people; they would come in whenever the plane was ready in an air-conditioned van (00:45:05:00) o The ground crew would assist in prepping the aircraft, starting it, marshalling the plane out, and sending it on its way (00:45:17:00) o The Air Force is easier about contact between an officer and an enlisted man but there is still a line dividing them; the two sides got along and got to know each other, but they did not fraternize with each other (00:45:45:00)  The officers did not go to the NCO club and vice versa (00:46:09:00) Normal week was twelve hours a day, six days a week, then up to fourteen hours a day, six days a week, then seven days a week and when it really got bad, it was sixteen hours a day, seven days a week (00:46:27:00) o There was always at least two time period groups overlapping each other; the new group would talk with the old group to figure out what was happening and once everything was going well, the old group would go back (00:46:42:00) The planes had been built in the late 1950’s and had done their time, but Yocum saw things that dispelled the myth that the aircraft could not do something; i.e. an F-100 with a two foot diameter hole in the wing that should not be able to fly, but the pilot managed to land the plane on ground successfully (00:47:12:00) o When they had unload the equipment from it, what was left of the airplane was hauled over to the fire pits for the firefighters to train on (00:47:55:00) o One time, he was running a Deuce and a Half truck to start up an aircraft when another Deuce and a Half caught fire and Yocum attempted to haul the plane to safety (00:48:15:00)  Another man, seeing what was happening, swung a cable and dislocated Yocum’s ankle (00:48:30:00)  Yocum believed he was dead because they had napalm and antipersonal bombs on the plane (00:48:53:00)  They had to send someone running after Yocum to catch him (00:49:56:00) Yocum did things in Vietnam that under normal conditions are physically impossible to do, including a standing high jump of twenty four feet (00:50:02:00) o A stray bomblet was coming towards a group and when it impacted, it did not explode; they could hear crickets because there was nobody around, they had all somehow gotten out of the way (00:50:19:00) o They had twenty-four foot tall steel walls, which Yocum cleared and then flattened his body down (00:50:43:00) They had a pilot that they hated because he was guaranteed one main tire change whenever he landed (00:51:08:00) �      o One time, an enemy plane fired an HE 20 mm shell that went up the intake and lodged in the instrument panel in front of the pilot (00:51:23:00) o The rounds were made to explode upon impact and if the pilot landed rough, then the round would explode; the pilot ended up landing smooth (00:51:59:00) o The munitions crew dearmed the aircraft, the ground crew took the canopy off and took the seat out (00:52:39:00) o Yocum told the men working on the instruments that they had a choice: they could go in an disconnect all the instruments or Yocum could go in and cut everything eighteen inches back (00:52:50:00)  The instrument panel was held in with thirty-six spring snap locks and Yocum had to make sure that the locks did not snap, or the round would explode (00:53:21:00) o Yocum ended up freeing the panel, hooking wires from a crane to the panel and getting off the plane before gingerly moving the panel out with a wire (00:53:58:00) o They built a thirty-six diameter sand bag pit and buried the panel plus a quarter pound of C4; the explosion nearly lifted the panel back up (00:54:20:00) o When they wanted the instruments, Yocum took what was left in a box plus a letter saying it was combat damage and gave it to supply (00:54:43:00) Went once to Bangkok (00:55:36:00) Was going to go to Japan but they had an alert and they canceled all leaves (00:55:39:00) o They had to fly planes up near the Vietnamese border and by the time they were done, he did not have enough time to take the R&R (00:55:53:00) Going to Bangkok was nice because he could relax; he did not have to worry about the bad guy being one or two chairs over (00:56:14:00) They were always nervous when they initially left the base (00:56:26:00) o Yocum had a pineapple hand grenade thrown into his lap; it did not go off and Yocum is still trying to figure out how he put his body through a steelrimmed hole smaller than his body (00:56:34:00) o With the right incentive, you could do almost anything (00:56:55:00) o Yocum had been off-base, downtown, getting on a “putt-putt” cab to return to base when a grenade came in, bounced once and when it hit again, it exploded (00:57:02:00) o The Vietnamese would take a bicycle and pack the frame with C4; three or four pounds of C4 would go off against the wall, so that the blast would come out into the street (00:57:40:00) They were always in non-combat situations, although they did receive some combat situations; their main job was to make sure that the grounds guys had airplanes ready for them to use (00:58:16:00) Information on the success of the mission the crew participated in was classified (00:58:57:00) �    o “Don’t ask, don’t tell”, even if they knew the officer; if they asked, then the officer had to report them (00:59:01:00) They knew quite a bit about the actual war because Phan Rang was the in-country R&R location of the 1st Infantry Division, the “Big Red One”, as well as a base for Australians using the B-57 (00:59:17:00) o They had sources of information; including the military newspaper, Stars and Stripes, and some radio programs (00:59:44:00) o They did not know which operations they were supporting; that information was strictly “need to know” (01:00:18:00) Another memorable moment was when “Puff” came online (01:00:51:00) o “Puff” was an armed C-47; an old C-47 changed into an AC-47 by placing gatling guns transversed through the fuselage (01:00:58:00) o At night, they could watch as a red arch went from the plane to the ground; only every fifth round caused the red arch, indicating a tremendous rate of fire (01:01:17:00)  Take a football field, including end zones, and divide it up into one foot squares and within three minutes, every square would have a bullet in it (01:01:50:00) o The firing sounded like a buzzsaw (01:02:17:00) o They could see the plane in action because they knew where to look; at night, they would look in a specific area (01:02:27:00) o “Puff” would land at Phan Rang to get serviced before returning to their main base; one of the planes that came in was older than Yocum, the frame had been built in 1942 (01:02:49:00) o When they went up to the C-119 and AC’d them, they became a nasty aircraft; when these planes came online, they gave “Puff” to the Vietnamese to use (01:03:23:00)  The aircraft carried two 75 mm recoilless rifles in the tail, four 20 mm gatling guns, and another pair of recoilless rifles (01:03:43:00)  The planes could attack from the side or the tail and Charlie hated them because they could not hear the planes (01:03:59:00) o If the planes spotted Charlie, the whole area was saturated (01:04:08:00) o The C-119 was just coming in when Yocum was leaving but he knew about them (01:04:18:00) Anybody worth his salt had a hundred day calendar; as soon as he hit a hundred days, he had the calendar up and was marking it off (01:04:31:00) o Near the end, everybody was packing up and getting ready to go while waiting for their replacement body and as soon as someone’s replacement arrived, the first person left because they did not have enough bunks for two groups (01:04:49:00) They did the replacements in a steady enough flow so that there were no problems (01:05:07:00) o In the last ten to twenty days of their time, the Air Force would bring in a group of ten to twenty guys and twenty guys from the base would leave; some men left before Yocum and some left after (01:05:14:00) �     o The replacements had to be trained and shown what to do (01:05:45:00) o Yocum does not know what happened to the 352nd after he left, although he knows that it was deactivated (01:05:48:00) In a war zone, you were either the best or the worst; there was not mediocre because they did not have time to be (01:06:00:00) o The men he worked with were the best group of guys he had ever been with and although he cannot hardly remember any of the names of the men he served with, he does remember what they did there (01:06:12:00) While he was recovering from his dislocated ankle, he was placed temporarily in charge of non-powered equipment (01:06:24:00) o The position was supposed to be temporary but the man Yocum served under received an emergency, had to return to the United States and Yocum stayed in the position for the rest of his tour (01:06:36:00) o Yocum eventually got payback (01:07:00:00)  He had ordered thirty-six rolls of three inch wide reflective tape but instead he got three rolls of thirty-six inch wide tape (01:07:09:00)  The tape was non-returnable, so whenever someone needed to put a number on their vehicle, they would have to barter with Yocum (01:07:25:00)  Yocum eventually had the best spray guns, compressors, etc., because every piece needed a number on it (01:07:36:00)  He even ended up with a cargo container to lock his stuff up in, when before he had just a wood shack (01:08:01:00) o He wanted to get back to working on planes but he did not because there was no one able to take over the position (01:08:23:00) o They flew a man in when Yocum had forty-five days left so that Yocum could show him the ropes (01:08:31:00) Returned to the United States September, 1968 (01:08:55:00) o Any time someone transferred, they had the opportunity for leave, so long as they had the time and they could borrow time, but only up to fifteen days (01:09:01:00) o Yocum had been in country for twelve months without leave, so he earned thirty days worth of leave (01:09:12:00) o Came back and landed in Seattle and on his leave, he circumvented the United States; did not complete the last six hundred miles of the trip, although he completed it later when he had a new car (01:09:24:00) Following his leave, he reported to Mountain Home Air Force Base in Idaho; he lived six hundred miles west of the base and on a three day leave, it took him ten and a half to eleven hours to get home (01:10:16:00) College kids had changed their attitudes towards soldiers, thanks largely to inept politicians (01:10:55:00) o The one guy that Yocum thought he could trust was Walter Cronkite, but he turned out to be one of the worst; people trusted his word and he lied, which really upset Yocum (01:11:05:00) �  o Yocum had to be careful when he was around college towns because the students would go after anything military and those who went to Vietnam paid the price and never received a welcome (01:11:35:00)  They went out and did what they had to do and the students had no right to criticizes them (01:12:02:00) o Walter Cronkite would cherry pick the news scenes to show what the soldiers were doing, both good and bad, although the soldiers did more good than bad in comparison to the news (01:12:08:00)  They helped with building schools and tried to interact with the local people, but the news portrayed them as gunning down everyone they saw and blowing everything up (01:12:24:00) o Yocum felt bad for the little girl in the famous napalm photo but Charlie was there and he always hid behind the civilians (01:12:46:00) o They had places that they could not attack and this was where Charlie was (01:12:59:00)  Charlie had an old temple which served as his munitions storage but the Air Force could not attack it (01:13:05:00) o When they stopped the B-52 raids, they had Charlie broken if they had not stopped the raids; once Charlie figured out the Air Force would only go so far, Charlie knew they had the Air Force (01:13:24:00) o Presently the politicians are not micromanaging as bad as they did during Vietnam but there is still political micromanagement (01:13:45:00)  Let the military do the job it was trained to do; if the military had its hands tied, then they could not do the job as well (01:13:51:00) Like World War II, the military had to go in and decimate Vietnam and then let the country rebuild (01:14:26:00) o They had to go in and win the war first, then go in and do the politics; do not go in and do the politics while fighting because it would cause the military to lose (01:15:12:00) o He sees World War II and the veterans are not angry, the Korean war and how the veterans were a little angry, and finally Vietnam, were the veterans are angry because they were punished for not doing the job and not being allowed to do the job (01:15:57:00) o The soldiers did not have the ability to make decisions (01:16:26:00) One thing he wishes they had back in Vietnam was the A-10 attack fighter; the ground crews love it and the pilots love it because they are well-protected (01:16:32:00) Post-Vietnam Service (01:17:08:00)  Was discharged from the Air Force in 1980 (01:17:08:00)  Starting at Mountain Home, he was an aircraft mechanic and this was where he had the disagreement with an NCO (01:17:18:00) o Air Force policy was to separate the men, so they sent Yocum to test school and the NCO was not allowed to reenlist because soldiers had to be given the invitation to reenlist or they would not be able to reenlist and they would have to request retirement (01:17:30:00) �     o Yocum knows a man who was discharged for twenty-six years without retirement because his son did something illegal overseas (01:17:57:00) If a soldier’s family does something wrong, then the soldier loses his enlistment, which was what happened to Yocum (01:18:15:00) o Yocum fought his discharge and managed to get to Jimmy Carter’s desk (01:18:44:00) o He was not scheduled to be reviewed until January 27th but on the day before Thanksgiving, he was told he only had six days to leave the base (01:18:48:00) From Mountain Home, he went to Germany, where he served for four years; originally was to be three years but the after their eighteen month party, their time was extended another twelve months (01:19:19:00) o Was at Bitburg Air Force Base, the Air Force Base that President Reagan flew into (01:19:56:00) o There was a controversy because the news media portrayed the President as he was going to lay flowers at an old SS cemetery, when in reality, he had to go past the cemetery to even get out of the base (01:20:29:00) o Excellent base to serve at; got to know his ex-wife, who he married and brought over to the United States (01:20:49:00) From Germany, he went to Griffiths Air Force Base in Rome, New York, where Woodstock II occurred (01:21:02:00) From Griffiths, he and his wife lost a child and so the Air Force reassigned him to an Air Base in Spokane, Washington (01:21:17:00) o He and his wife had another child and Yocum received orders in 1976 sending him back to RAF Bentwater (01:21:34:00) He should have known something was wrong with the troubles he was having, but he did not and when he found out, he exploded (01:21:47:00) o Personal information that destroyed his career (01:21:58:00) Post-Military Life (01:22:13:00)  When Yocum was discharged, he was angry and although he is still upset, he is not angry because the Air Force did what they had to do (01:22:13:00)  Upon discharge, Yocum did not look for work and instead tried to get medical because he messed his back up when he was stationed at Griffiths; he bent over and ripped every muscle in his spine (01:22:33:00) o Over time, the pain has gotten worse and although he does the exercises that he can, he is limited (01:23:01:00) o The injury makes him unhireable because he is not able to do simple tasks, such as stand for two hours or lift his back (01:23:09:00) o It took him seven years of non-government funded therapy to get over his anger (01:23:47:00)  Married his second wife just before his discharge in November of 1980 (01:23:52:00) o He did not plan to be reviewed until late January or early February of the next year when all of the sudden, he was discharged (01:24:02:00) �      His second wife had a job that she worked at and Yocum kept up doing odd jobs but he could never keep anything permanent (01:24:28:00) o Finally, in 1985, Yocum was able to go back to school (01:24:37:00) o Normally, with the trade he had chosen, Yocum would have gone to an electronics school (01:24:45:00) o When Yocum graduated, the major electronics companies, including IBM, released a lot of their experienced technicians, making it difficult for an untrained person, such a Yocum, to find a job (01:24:52:00) His second wife is from Michigan and her parents live around the Crystal Lake area (01:25:17:00) He and his wife have two sons: the oldest son has been in the Air Force for ten years and loves it and the youngest son recently married at the time of the interview (01:25:33:00) Yocum is still trying a few things to work out his problems and he has to dig through records to prove what he has claimed, including civilian X-Rays that show he does have problems in his back and hips (01:25:47:00) o Every so often, he hears a click and his legs become rubber because a nerve is being pinched in his back and no signals go to his legs (01:26:18:00) o Yocum does not count on much anymore, which contributes to his anger at the Air Force and although he receives a small pension for his face, he believes that the Air Force owes him a lot more (01:26:47:00) He learned quickly in the military that it was all or nothing and there is no inbetween (01:27:07:00) His time in the Air Force gave him a lot of knowledge, which he tried using but because he had no college degree, it was difficult (01:27:55:00) o One time, he went to an interview and told the interviewer to point out something that he needed to be more productive; Yocum went in and fixed one of the man’s slower production lines, making it more productive (01:28:09:00) o The man ended up hiring a college graduate and not hiring Yocum because he did not have a college degree; Yocum told the man off, which turned out to not be a smart decision (01:28:46:00) o He showed the man what he could do and that he was not a dummy, just because he did not have a piece of paper to hang on his wall; that had been his job in the service, to keep production running smoothly (01:29:14:00) o He loved doing the job, but management viewed the service as a burn-out field; he went in and either became a cinder or a piece of steel and most become cinders (01:29:48:00)  The men were under stress because the top was always looking down and the bottom did not like what they were doing and the men were the center of the target (01:30:06:00)  As long as Yocum did his job, nobody knew, but if he failed, everybody knew (01:30:23:00) o The men did not mind the problem although they did have some men who were afraid to make a move, lest they upset someone (01:30:33:00) �      o Twice in eleven years, Yocum had to go to his commander, both colonels and after doing non-verbal communication, he was told to leave (01:31:01:00) Presently, civilians and the media are treating the soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan better, but they are still not treating the soldiers right (01:32:13:00) o Yocum is happy to see that when they come back, there are happy crowds and not agree crowds, although the crowds are mostly the soldier’s relatives; anyone that is bad is kept away; during Yocum’s time, the people would get right into his face (01:32:19:00) o When his son returns, people see him in his uniform and they know who he is (01:33:01:00)  He did four years of ROTC at Central Michigan, which was a shock because Yocum did not recommend it, although the son used him as a source for military protocol, which gave him a two rank increase upon his graduation (01:33:04:00)  Makes Yocum proud because until the son is ready, he will not take the test to move up in rank (01:33:38:00)  He has seen too many men burn out to the point that they cannot do their job (01:34:46:00) Try to get into a good field, but do not count on the field being the same when you get out of school (01:35:30:00) Do not reject the chance to go to school (01:35:58:00) o Yocum would love to go back to school (01:36:10:00) One time, when he was in a class, the teacher made Yocum assist the other students (01:36:66:00) o In the military, anyone over an E-5 takes classes to learn what they can do, what they cannot do, what they need to do, and what they should never do and they receive this training yearly (01:36:43:00) If Yocum ever does go back to school, he never has to take the general education classes (01:37:14:00) He had wanted to switch over to accounting because he liked numbers (01:37:30:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_YocumM Title A name given to the resource Yocum, Michael (Interview outline and video), 2010 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-08-19 Description An account of the resource Michael Yocum was born in Seattle and grew up in the Mount St. Helens area of Washington. He enlisted in the Air Force in the early 1960's and after serving at several bases around the world as an aircraft mechanic, he did a tour in Vietnam at Phan Rang Air Force Base from 1967 to 1968. He remained in the Air Force until 1980, serving on bases in the US and Europe. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Yocum, Michael Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Air Force Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cde9454ea843b5e4cedff7900660fa93.mp4 e59ecdccd91e71b52b4103a3a5c06ace https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/20e6ba79c02f49e84f962babbdf8eb6e.pdf ba684b494030b0b88790996a728a3d3b PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Clare Yenor (00:56:59) (00:10) Background Information • • • • • Clare was born on a farm in Michigan on March 8, 1921 They later moved to another small town in Michigan where his father was a butcher and owned his own grocery store Clare’s father’s appendix ruptured and he died when Clare was just 7 years old His mother tried to continue running the store for a while, but she was also taking care of four children Clare graduated from high school in 1939 and began working on houses (5:30) Enlistment • • • • • • Clare enlisted in the Army in April of 1942 He was inducted in Detroit and then sent to Fort Sill, Oklahoma for training They were marching, following orders, and training in rough terrain There were many men there from Michigan and the rest were from the South Clare went through basic training for the first couple of weeks and then went through artillery training They trained altogether for 13 weeks (12:30) Transferred • • • • Clare was later transferred to the 215th Field Artillery Battalion and they began training with gliders at Fort Bragg, North Carolina Clare was part of the first unit to get involved with glider planes during WWII He spent 1.5 years training in North Carolina During that time he only had one week leave to come back to Michigan, but at that point he did meet the woman who would later become his wife (17:25) Nebraska • • • Clare was part of a cadre that was sent to Nebraska to work with the 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions They were training other officers to work with gliders; how to land and carry supplies Clare worked with C-47 transport planes, loading supplies and jeeps �• He then began working with a heavy artillery unit (22:00) Traveling Overseas • • • • • • • Clare was shipped out of the US right after D-Day in a Liberty Ship from New York The ship was already slow on top of the zig zag course they had to take to avoid submarines They landed in England and then traveled to La Havre, France where they waited for supplies Clare was part of a reserve artillery unity of the 3rd Army, answering to General Patton There were many damaged buildings in France and not many civilians around Clare had some time on leave in Paris; he visited the amusement park and went to a burlesque show He bartered with American cigarettes and stayed in a nice hotel (26:45) Continuously Moving • • • • • Clare’s unit continuously moved all over France and had to sleep in foxholes Three men died the first night because they were not sleeping in their fox holes Clare was the chief of section of a gun section and felt like he was a baby sitter He did not like his job of keeping track of and watching all the other men He was also in charge of watching over the ammunition corporal (32:20) Battle of the Bulge • • • • Clare was working with very large and loud artillery that could blow one’s ears out Sometimes they were ordered to fire at will and others they used a timing device They were working in the Ardennes Forest during the winter and it was very cold; none of the men have been given the proper winter attire They were continuously moving and attacked by Germans, who were very fast and accurate (38:30) Traveling through the Ardennes • • • • • There were many trucks and other vehicles traveling through the Ardennes carrying guns and equipment Many got stuck and could not make it through the icy terrain Their guns would never freeze up, but they did have to be careful cleaning them Clare was with the first group to cross the Rhine after the engineers had built pontoon bridges He expected lots of resistance, but faced almost none �(44:55) German Soldiers • • • • Most of the German soldiers were just ordinary people that had been forced to fight, but the SS were very strict and greedy The SS looked better fed, trained, disciplined, and equipped After the war most of the German citizens avoided the American soldiers Clare traveled around Germany in trucks moving German POWs (49:35) The End of the War • • • • • • • The government was dividing up men to be sent home based upon how many points they had earned Clare had very few points because he had no dependants and did not get wounded Clare was in Austria when he heard that he could finally go home He was sent back to France and left on a ship from Marseille They took a Liberty Ship home and the ride was much nicer than the one to Europe Clare was discharged shortly after arriving back in the US He got married that April and worked for Consumers Energy for 30 years before retiring ������������������������������������� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_YenorC Title A name given to the resource Yenor, Clare (Interview outline, video, and papers), 2008 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-08-07 Description An account of the resource Clare Yenor was born in 1921 and lived on a farm in Michigan. He enlisted in the Army in April of 1942. Clare went through basic training in Oklahoma, and after that began artillery training with the 215th Field Artillery Battalion. The 125th was one of the first groups to begin training with glider planes during WWII. Yenor later trained the officers of the 182nd and 101st Airborne Divisions to work with the gliders. He was then assigned to a heavy artillery battalion attached to the 3rd Army in Europe, participating in the Battle of the Bulge, the crossing of the Rhine, and the occupation of Germany and Austria. Photographs, certificates, and medals are addended to the interview outline. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Yenor, Clare Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/aae8c627a147f811f17637ce2a44243d.mp4 8a7ccb4e81a1d6279ff4281a77a473c5 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d5a9eb2cf0eb3cb9496c0dfe81e24fd9.pdf 6fd217c2892720da4797605b0d5e9182 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Doré Westra World War II 1 hour 5 minutes 33 seconds (00:00:08) Early Life -Born in Byron Center, Michigan -Father was a teacher -Had a job in Byron Center as the principal of a Christian school -Born in 1925 -Moved to Detroit/Grosse Point when he was four years old -Grew up there -Oldest child of the family and had two younger brothers -Father's job wasn't a good job to have during the Great Depression -Had plenty of work, but wasn't getting paid much, if anything (00:01:16) Start of the War and Following the News of the War -Heard about the attack on Pearl Harbor by reading about it in the newspaper -Wanted to serve his country immediately -Came as a surprise because he wasn't following the news of the war in Europe and Asia -Wanted to join the cavalry -Didn't know that the cavalry did not mean cavalry charges on horses anymore (00:03:06) Getting Drafted -Received his draft notice shortly after he turned eighteen (February 22, 1943) -Immediately reported for service -Had been doing carpentry work before being drafted -Had dropped out of high school to help his father pay off debt -Had been working with his father for $1 a day -Father eventually got a job at Ford River Rouge Complex -Teaching sailors about diesel engines -Had been taking courses about diesel engines (00:05:00) Basic Training -Reported for training at the end of June 1943 -Took a train down to Camp Claiborne, Louisiana -Located in the south-central part of the state in a dry area -General training camp with some engineering elements -Learned how to march and received rifle training with the M1 Garand -Scored second highest in his battalion for marksmanship -Won a ten day pass and got to go home for a week -There was a heavy emphasis on discipline and following orders -Every morning they would have to clean the grounds -Mostly meant picking up cigarette butts -He didn't feel that it was fair to pick up butts since he didn't smoke -Eventually led to him being picked to be a dispatch rider �-Delivering messages on a motorcycle (00:09:17) Engineering Training -Stayed at Camp Claiborne for engineering training -Learned how to put Bailey bridges together, and learned how to climb telephone poles -Part of the 1302nd Engineer General Service Regiment -Bailey bridge: Made of eight foot panels bolted together on a truss -Only about fifty to sixty feet long -Made of steel -Learned how to build pontoon bridges -Inflatable pontoons made of durable rubber holding up the bridge platform -Inflated using air compressors -Stayed at Camp Claiborne until the end of 1943 (00:13:00) Deployment -Sent up to New Jersey by train -Part of B Company which numbered about one hundred men -The camp they arrived at was near New York Harbor -Boarded a troopship that was a converted cruise ship -Nicer than a Liberty Ship -His job was to work for the Merchant Marines cleaning toilets and doing odd jobs -Much better than just sitting around -Had good weather on the voyage -He didn't get seasick, but felt uncomfortable -Sailed as part of a convoy -Sailed north to avoid U-Boats (00:16:28) Stationed in England -Arrived at Wales and unloaded there -Taken to a temporary camp and stayed there for a few days -By now it was January 1944 -Snuck out at night and went to a pub -Tried hard cider unwittingly -From the temporary camp got sent to a base near Cardiff, Wales -Worked twelve hour days unloading and loading box cars -He worked on small cranes and on a thirty ton crane -Getting material ready for the Normandy invasion -Spent a few months there -Got to visit town on passes -Went to the movies -Met a few English girls -Sent south to Bournemouth, England -Widened a runway at an airbase there for the American bombers -Also started building drainage fields and septic tanks for incoming U.S. troops -Starting to assemble forces for D-Day -While stationed in England they got harassed by German aircraft -They would fly over at night -Spotlights would illuminate them for antiaircraft batteries �-Remembers antiaircraft fragments raining down on their camp -Germans were targetting cities and mostly ignored their camp -He was in Bournemouth when D-Day happened on June 6, 1944 -Got sick and was in the hospital during the invasion -Eventually got sent to Bristol, England -Went to the movies with a few Wrens (Women's Royal Naval Service) -Escorted them back to their quarters and realized that he was lost -Got picked up by a high ranking officer and was taken to the Red Cross station -He was in Bristol because the 5th Armored Division needed replacements in Europe -He volunteered to be one of those replacements -Sent to a replacement camp in Ipswich, England -Kept busy by going on twenty five miles hikes -By now it was late summer 1944 -On hikes he would separate from the group and visit English farmers -Stayed in Ipswich for about one month (00:28:51) Joining the 5th Armored Division -Crossed the English Channel in early fall 1944 on a Landing Ship, Transport (LST) -Landed at Omaha Beach and was then loaded onto box cars -Traveled through the slums of Paris on the train -Stopped somewhere in France and boarded trucks, was then taken to the division -Joined a combat engineers unit -Numbers were being rebuilt, most likely following fighting on the Siegfried Line -Started moving towards the Rhine River -Clearing minefields, building bridges, and destroying bridges -Came upon an abandoned German base -Did not know that the Germans had left already -There was still food on the tables and it had not gone rotten yet -Had to clear a radio tower on the base and did not know if there were still soldiers in it -By now it was late fall 1944, approaching the winter of 1944 (00:32:32) Battle of the Bulge -During the Battle of the Bulge they were camped out in a farmer's field in Eupen, Belgium -His unit's duty was to keep roads clear to make sure supplies could reach the frontlines -They would fill in craters created by German artillery strikes -There were some artillery strikes against the town they were in -Germans would keep them pinned in by bombarding both ends of the town -Get sent to destroy a bridge -Carrying dynamite in his backpack -Got to the bridge and set up camp for the night -The next day the Germans blew it up -In the meantime an American convoy was approaching the bridge -Some of the trucks got hit and were abandoned -One of his friends commandeered one of the trucks �-Truck was on fire and still being fired upon -Could never get undressed because it was so cold -Slept in pup tents -Never had any problems with frostbite -At the farm in Belgium the farmer would four or five GIs into the house to warm up -Shared his cognac with them -He would converse with the teenage daughter using a French/English dictionary -The son had managed to escape being conscripted by the Germans -Father had been on the Belgian national soccer team -At the end of the battle he saw American troops returning from the frontline -They were so exhausted they couldn't even smile or wave -At the end of the battle and afterwards saw a lot of German prisoners of war -Many of them were either very young, or very old (00:39:02) Advancing into Germany -In late winter/early spring 1945 they began to advance east into Germany -Didn't encounter a lot of fighting -Went from house to house in German towns collecting weapons -Built a pontoon bridge while advancing into Germany -On the other side of the river there were German soldiers waiting to surrender (00:41:22) End of the War and Occupation Duty -Got transferred to the 2nd Armored Division after the war was over -Slept in a house after Germany surrendered -The woman of the house would cook meals for them -German civilians were friendly towards American troops after the war was over -During the war you were not allowed to even talk to the civilians -After the war that rule was relaxed -With the war over he got to be a dispatch rider again -Rode around in the country -On one occasion he picked up a girl and brought her back to town -Turned out that she had been a carnival motorcyclist before the war -In the countryside there wasn't much evidence of the war -Roughly in the middle of Germany (00:45:27) Occupation Duty in Berlin -In July 1945 the 2nd Armored Division was sent up to Berlin -He got to see the Brandenburg Gate -There was a lot of damage from the war in the city's center -Allowed to associate with the Russian troops in the city -Could trade with the Russians -Got a flat tire once and a Russian officer and German civilian helped him fix it -The Germans hated the Russians -Russians would indiscriminately rape attractive German girls -German girls would stuff their clothes with pillows to appear fat -In the U.S. sector there were dances organized for GIs and local girls -Made friends with one German girl -Learned that her father was missing (or dead) and had been in the �Gestapo -A lot of Germans acted like they had never had anything to do with the Nazi Party -Russians were always eager to trade things for the money issued to American soldiers (00:51:36) End of Service and Coming Home -Left Berlin and on the way got two dozen hard boiled eggs from a German woman -Shared them with some of the men in his convoy -It was around fall 1945 and they were on their way to Stuttgart, Germany -From Stuttgart they went to Marseilles, France and waited to be sent home -Not allowed to go into the city because GIs would get mugged -They had a recreation center on the base where he played ping pong with a French girl -Boarded a Liberty Ship and sailed across the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean -Took six days to sail back to the United States -Arrived in the New Jersey/New York area -Boarded a train and was sent to Camp Atterbury, Indiana to be discharged -From Indiana took a train to Waupun, Wisconsin -Parents had moved there from Michigan -Got home in winter 1945 (00:55:56) Life after the War -Got back into carpentry work after the war -Worked in carpentry until he decided to work on his own -Built pig pens, corn cribs, and repaired roofs -After getting married, he worked for his father-in-law in Corsica, South Dakota -Doing electrical work -Installing lights in houses and barns that still used gas lamps -Helped him build a house -People heard that he was good at building cupboards, so he did that for a while -Wife got pregnant and eventually gave birth to a baby boy in Mitchell, South Dakota -Drove to Corsica to tell the family about the birth -Drove back to the hospital in a snowstorm -Then drove back to Corsica in that same snowstorm -Lived in South Dakota for another three years -In-laws wanted to raise their other children in a better environment -Decided to move to Holland, Michigan -Mayor of Corsica begged Dore to stay, but he wanted to go back to Michigan (01:04:23) Reflections on Service -Learned to make decisions for himself when he had to as well as confidence -Feels that the Army didn't change him too much -Believes that he is the same man that he was before he went into the Army � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_WestraD1743V Title A name given to the resource Westra, Doré (Interview outline and video) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-04-14 Description An account of the resource Doré Westra was born on February 22, 1925 in Byron Center, Michigan. He grew up in the Grosse Point area of Detroit, Michigan and lived there until he was drafted after his eighteenth birthday on February 22, 1943. He received basic training and engineer training at Camp Claiborne, Louisiana and was assigned to B Company of the 1302nd Engineer General Service Regiment. In late 1943 his unit was sent up to Camp Kilmer, New Jersey and by January 1944 they were in England. He was stationed in England for over half of 1944 until he volunteered to join a combat engineer unit in the 5th Armored Division. He joined that unit in fall 1944 and was in the Battle of the Bulge and the crossing of the Rhine River. After Germany surrendered on May 8, 1945 he was reassigned to the 2nd Armored Division and was stationed in Berlin until he was sent home in late fall 1945. He was discharged from Camp Atterbury, Indiana in winter 1945. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Westra, Doré Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c452a6d88c2d5d9a1e2270402b0254fd.m4v 97983a86124f30b8017f635b11fdf549 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a75346eafe09e337e85f5f8e766cb4e4.pdf f9170f70372fbbce34a5eccb9f818a09 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Peace-time service, 1982 David Weaver Sr. Length: 57 Minutes Pre-Enlistment Born in Madrid, Spain; 1964 (0:57) Farther was stationed at Torrejon Air force base (1:06) His father served for 22 years, retiring in Muskegon as a recruiter (1:16) His father retired in 1974 (1:24) He is the youngest, so his father did not move around as much; his brothers and sister endured more of that (1:31) They stayed in Spain for about 18 months before moving to Michigan (1:42) They moved to the southeast side of Grand Rapids, living on College Street and he went Brookside Elementary School (1:59) It was a very nice and suburban neighborhood, but they were one of the first African-American families that moved there; it had not been integrated yet (2:18) There was some tension and bullying, but he became involved in sports (2:38) �In the Fourth Grade he promoted to the Sixth Grade team, which led to him being more accepted (3:04) He had support from the teachers, specifically, Jeanne Brederland, who saw that he was troubled and took the initiative to take him to her farm, in Zeeland, Michigan (3:25) Her son, also named David, was older, bigger, and tough, which gave Weaver someone to look up to (3:35) One thing that he learned from the weekend in the farm was the importance of hard work and discipline (3:48) He went to Ottawa Hills High school, where he was on the first team to win the citywide football championship (4:04) Enlistment He joined the delayed enlistment program while in high school, so he joined the Air Force on November 30 of 1982 (4:17) At first he had wanted to go to college and got a partial scholarship to Fisk University, but he did not have the money to finish school (4:43) He decided to join the Marines (he liked the uniform), his father sat him down and asked him what he was going to do after the military (5:20) His father than pointed out that he came from a lineage of members of the Air Force, his father and uncles had all served for twenty years and his brother and cousin had also served (5:22) So Weaver decided to try to take the test for the Air Force, and he scored very well. He got into base procurement and moved to George Air Force Base, in Victorville, California (5:49) �His basic training was at Lackland in San Antonio, Texas (5:53) Boot Camp He performed with the veteran’s creative arts festival which is a way to for veterans to heal using the arts (the year before the interview) (6:29) He won awards for singing but the year before the interview he did a stand up routine about his time at boot camp (6:64) His drill instructor’s breath smelled bad, which was part of his routine (7:15) Basic Training was the beginning of the process the make his thinking more like the military (7:42) They took all of the recruits’ clothes and replaced it with a military uniform (7:50) Everything is government issued, he had been prepared because of the experiences of his brother and father, so he had already buzz cut his hair, but then they “buzz cut” his buzz cut (8:11) Important part was changing the mindset, including uniform military code of justice and the rank system, but the most important was to respect the rank even if they did not respect the person (8:48) He was there for about six weeks; they counted the working days but not the weekend (9:07) They learned how to shine shoes, through spit-shining shoes, which he had not heard of before (9:43) They did a mile run, and there was pushups and sit ups, their main goal was to control the weight to keep their frames small. (10:01) �Not as hard as the Army and Marines, but was still important for them to stay in shape (10:24) He did not know what his specialization was going to be; after he took the test he was given a multiple options (10:46) He was not sure what procurement was at first but after it was explained to him he felt it was the best option, because it was something that could be transitioned into something else in the civilian world (11:03) A procurement specialist bought goods and services for the base (11:14) They bought everything the bases needed, from fuel to the patches for the uniform (11:33) Training School His secondary training is called training school, and he was trained at Lowry Air Force Base in Denver, Colorado (11:45) It was a classroom setting and he was trained by both military and civilian teachers because of the amount of interfacing with the civilian world (12:03) There were also civilians training there to take civilian jobs in the government that served a similar procurement role (12:22) He worked with the civilian workers who managed the computers that calculated the cost to government, through computer cards (13:09) The technical school was much less restricted than the boot camp, there was more free time and he was able to go to church (14:11) �In his spare time he played basketball and was involved in a choir, which was important to him because singing helped him through the transition (14:37) He was in tech school for 18 weeks (15:03) He was given a dream sheet so he put bases in Southern California as his first three choices, because he thought it would nice to live there (15:30) George Air Force Base He got his first choice, but it was not by the beach, but in a town called Victorville, in the middle of the desert. (15:40) Initially he was involved in the follow up section, finding out why supplies had not been delivered or had to get more as needed (16:12) He was one of the first Airmen Basic to be sent to the procurement office, most who worked there were NCO who had trained in other departments then were added to procurement later (16:48) He really enjoyed the work (17:01) A lot of the job was contacting the companies the orders were from; one thing he learned was that the government got precedence in everything they were doing, to the point that they could shut down the facility until the materials were made (17:39) He did not do that while in the military but did later when working for Northrop-Grumman when a company did not deliver their landing gear for the B-2 stealth bomber (18:22) He “volunteered”; he was sent because he was new, to join the drill team that performed at parades and funerals (19:08) �He really enjoyed the experiences and felt that the drill team was exceptional (19:46) They performed largely in California but also were in several nearby states, such as Arizona (20:14) The military wanted to train him in all aspects of procurement so he was transferred to supplies buying (20:50) They purchased everything from basic supplies to fuel, and this section was all military which led it to feel different from the earlier job (21:34) He had become an airman first class by this point but most of the people he worked with were NCO’s (21:50) Problems with the Military Justice System He started to have problems in 1984 when he was sent to buy ground fuel, when found out that the contract had not be secured by the Department of Defense (22:28) This was particularly a problem because his base was contingency base which meant they were to fly sorties as part of a simulated war (22:43) The order had been coded improperly meaning that it was need now but he had no contract to refer to and his section chief was on temporary duty meaning that he was not used to the job (23:31) He had to call the Department of Defense and was given the instructions for the situation, however after the order had been filled out there were some discrepancies and some of the documentation was missing (24:19) �He had to get a letter confirming information from the company and then had to recover the letter after the military threw it away (24:54) After his supervisor returned, the supervisor said that Weaver was derelict in his duty and Weaver was sent for non-judicial punishment (25:27) He was blamed for problems with the paperwork that were outside of his control (26:39) He challenged it, but had to put together his own legal case and defend himself. He was given documentation that he needed to win the case, and he only got a letter reprimand rather than being kicked out of the Air Force (28:03) He was punished because the Air Force was unwilling to admit that they screwed up (28 34) He was temporarily removed from the drill team, for 6 months, after which he was reinstated to the drill team and he moved on to the services branch (29:29) For a short time he manned all three desks at the services branch because the other soldiers went on temporary duty (29:51) He was able to create training for the requesting agency to make their documents more accurate (30:31) He was able to work with drill team, though he later requested to leave to give someone else the experience, he worked on servicing full time (30:44) He continued working service until 1986 when he left the military for to work at NorthropGrumman (30:58) He had more issues with the military, mostly from the officer in charge of the section, possibly because of racism (31:49) �The officer began documents that would led to his expulsion, however these efforts were blocked by the base Colonel who liked Weaver and felt he was doing a good job (33:10) This meant that he was able to go to leadership school and was made Senior Airman, a junior NCO rank, but the damage had been done and he decided to leave the military (34:10) This was also partly decided because he wanted to join the ministry, and he had been licensed in 1985 (34:38) He had been treated very badly by the Air Force in his trials, which led to him dealing with PTSD. (36:13) He was sent to the correctional custody, which was based off boot camp, he was forced to run around the camp and then completely disrobe (37:13) He had never had to do anything like this before. He had to strip in front the officers that filed the complaint and read the manual of correctional custody (37:42) He broke down during this and tried to quit, but he was able to call the Base Commander who encouraged him to fight (38:17) The Commander allowed him to put his underwear back on and he finished the document, and the other prisoners said no one else had t go through out. (39:13) That experience followed him, and his performance reviews began to suffer, he married and he put himself more into biblical studies (40:13) He had more problems because even though he had done exceptionally well, he was marked down for the earlier problems (42:02) �Post Military Career When one of the NCO’s he worked with retired, he told Weaver that the NCO was going to work for Northrop-Grumman and when Weaver left the service to call him, and Weaver would have a job (42:58) He was involved in the building of the B2 Bomber, however the vendor began to fall behind so he had to take over so they could finish on time (43:40) After 2 years he transferred to General Dynamics (43:50) He worked there for about a year, while there he was he sang “The Greatest Love” by Whitney Houston and received a standing ovation (44:38) His superior suggest that he follow his music career, so Weaver did (44:43) He had a long music career, where he was involved in christian music, theatre, and had balance in his life (45:41) He created the alter ego Prophet Ramone twenty years before the interview (45:44) After he joined the Grumman he went to seminary school, where he learned that term, “reverend” was not biblical, so he wanted a term that meant something similar (47:17) He choose the term, “prophet”, because in the Old Testament it was used to mean someone who spoke for God, not someone who saw the future. (47:17) He picked Ramone because it was the Spanish version of his first name (48:46) �He did not run his church, but he produced music. He released an album, and performed at the Apollo Theater in New York City (48:15) He wrote many different motivational and faith based texts, and worked in theater (48:56) He was promoted from sales rep all the way to marketing director at the Milwaukee Repertory Theater (49:48) His PTSD continued to be a problem, though it went undiagnosed until 2011 (50:56) At the time, he had divorced his wife, suffering from drug problems, and was homeless. Someone told him he could get help from the VA (51:12) He went to the VA and was able to get treatment for depression and drug abuse, and through work with counselor realized that he had PTSD (52:05) He did not realize that he could get PTSD from a noncombat situation (52:14) He got help with his brain injury and his PTSD from the VA (52:28) His brain injury was from a head on collision while he was on the basketball team in the military (53:24) He lived in New York for some time, but had become homeless again. His estranged daughter sent him a message through Facebook, which led him to reconnect with his family (55:06) He decided to return to help his family to because father was on full time oxygen (55:34 He received help from VA to get his Masters in Divinity in Grand Rapids (56:26) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_WeaverD1666V Title A name given to the resource Weaver, David, Sr.(Interview outline and video), 2014 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-09-04 Description An account of the resource David Weaver Sr. was born in 1964 in Madrid, Spain, where his father was in the Air Force, and grew up in Michigan. He joined the Air Force in 1982 trained at Lackland and later Lowry Air Force Bases and became a procurement specialist. He served at George Air Force base working in the procurement department and serving on the base's drill team. Conflicts with some of his superiors led to a situation in which he was mistreated badly enough to lead to PTSD, and while he worked through those problems, he chose to leave the Air Force when his enlistment ended in 1986. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Weaver, David, Sr. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Air Force Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d385e068b7f7fb99f00b865b1cda11be.mp4 1e2fefac9a17f04dc24649e15b7d680a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b62bb349e29dbdfff95c15a0c42bf635.pdf 156dcecf33557a290849e6ad968c6006 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Kosovo War Fidel Angel Vega Length of interview (00:41:01) (00:00:14) Introduction & Civilian Life  Fidel was born in the Bronx, New York on June 30, 1973 (00:00:32)  His father worked in silk-screening, while his mother was a stay at home mom (00:00:41)  Fidel worked numerous jobs before enlisting in the army (00:01:03) o Tinting windows on cars o In auto-parts stores o Worked as a plumber  Enlisted because his cousin approached him about joining and he was dissatisfied with his plumbing job (00:01:25)  Wanted to join the Air force but the recruiter wasn’t available, so he decided to join the Army that day instead (00:02:19)  He was able to choose his job entering the army and he chose 12 bravo combat engineer (00:02:40) (03:35:00) Training  Basic training was not a shock for him because family members who had served prepared him for the experience (00:04:00)  His AIT (Advanced Individual Training) was combined with basic training into OSUT (One Station Unit Training) (00:04:57) o He had the same barracks and the same drill sergeants at the same location in Ft. Leonard Wood, Missouri o He adapted rather quickly to military life  After finishing OSUT he was assigned to the Bravo company, 326th Engineer Battalion of the 101st Airborne Division at Fort Campbell, Kentucky (00:05:47) o When he arrived, Fidel had to go through air assault training o He was required to train climbing ropes and rappelling from them as if off from a helicopter o He was able to climb a rope in 15 seconds, the limit being 30 seconds as he remembers it  He was asked to if he wanted to be the company’s platoon driver with a week or two of arriving, an offer he accepted (00:07:19)  Fidel remembers the men hazing a new lieutenant by walking passed him in a drawn out line, obliging the lieutenant to individually salute roughly thirty different men (00:08:10)  Air Assault School was one or two weeks long and helped him get over his fear of heights (00:10:00) (00:10:45) Active Service  After two years with the 101st he received orders to go to 82nd Engineer Battalion Bamberg, Germany (00:10:45) o He was assigned as the unit armorer, which he did for two years o Fidel’s job mostly required him to repair small arms weapons � After completing armorer school, Fidel’s unit was sent to Kosovo (00:12:33) o He was at one point tasked out to be a body guard for the battalion commander, a lieutenant colonel o During this mission he spent time in the cities of Kosovo where he interacted with Russian soldiers  Fidel arrived in Kosovo during December or January (00:15:38) o Fidel remembers a patrol where it was so cold that the hoses to their camelbak canteens froze, prompting them to return back indoors  The average day in Kosovo for Fidel entailed waking up, doing PT, having breakfast, and performing guard duty in the arms room (00:17:00) o They didn’t initially have an arms room, they had a C hut that acted as a barracks and arms room o The firearms needed to be guarded at all times, especially because the sea hut was only a wooden structure and the weapons were not entirely secure there  Fidel remembers a military police unit that was attacked by locals who threw rocks at the men while they were on patrol in the city of Pristina (00:18:30)  Fidel recalls that the primary job of the combat engineers in Kosovo was to plow the roads (00:19:30) o If they came across mines or IEDs they marked them and called a bomb disposal unit to dispose of them  There were not any NATO soldiers at his post in Kosovo, Camp Bondsteel, but there were some soldiers from Spain and Portugal (00:20:15)  While in Kosovo, the only time Fidel and the men went out, it was on a mission, as opposed to Germany where the men had free time on Saturday and Sunday (00:20:48) (00:21:50) Service in Germany  Fidel met some of his best friends through his unit in Germany, including his wife who was a paralegal (00:22:40) o Her MOS was 71D o He met her in August 2001, two months before his enlistment was up  Fidel recalls how he and a friend bought a broken down Volkswagen, which they repaired and drove around Germany during their leisure time (00:23:57)  It was difficult to keep in touch with family while in Kosovo, but in Germany it was relatively easy using phone cards or cell phones to call home (00:25:30)  He remembers some protests in Germany and the men were briefed where not to go because of them (00:26:18) (00:27:02) 9/11  Fidel was still in the Army when the World Trade Center Towers were attacked on September 11, 2001 (00:27:10) o He was walking into the med unit to collect his medical records when he saw several people standing around a television there o Fidel thought the other men were watching a movie and when one of them, a friend, told him it that the WTC towers had been hit, he thought they were joking around o He went back to the barracks to find out if it was true and was shocked to find his friend was telling the truth  On base, he remembers there being confusion, a lot of the men were nervous, some were �ready to go to war (00:28:17) o As he was about to leave the Army, Fidel remembers thinking that he may not be able to go home o He remembers a female soldier whose mother worked at the towers, but was sick that day and did not go to work o Fidel recalls another soldier whose cousin worked at the towers but was stuck in traffic when the towers were attacked (00:30:56) Return to Civilian life  Although he wanted to leave the army, Fidel found it difficult leaving just after 9/11 because he was unable to communicate with his friends, some of them serving in Iraq and Afghanistan (00:31:00)  Fidel found it somewhat difficult to adjust to civilian life, as his training left him always on the alert, aware of his surroundings and sometimes made him wary of others (00:32:50)  He still keeps in contact with some of the men he served with, especially through social media (00:33:40)  Fidel currently works for a company that has a defense contract with the Department of Defense and he works at the Army Reserve Center in Walker, MI (00:34:30)  After leaving the army, Fidel started a family with his wife and began working his current job as a security guard at the Army Reserve Center (00:35:09)  From his experiences in the Army, Fidel feels that sometimes war is necessary and also sometimes regrets leaving the Army when he did (00:36:17)  If there was anything he could have changed, Fidel would have chosen a different MOS, as his job as a combat engineer did not prepare him for any civilian careers as some army jobs do (00:39:17) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_VegaF1711V Title A name given to the resource Vega, Fidel (Interview outline and video), 2014 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-11-24 Description An account of the resource Fidel Angel Vega was born on June 30, 1973 in the Bronx, New York. During his adult life, Fidel worked a number of unsatisfying jobs that led him to enlist in the Army. In the army, Fidel served first as a combat engineer in the 326th Engineer Battalion of the 101st Airborne Division. Fidel was later transferred to the 82nd Engineer Battalion with whom he saw service in Germany as well as in Kosovo as a part of the peace keeping mission there following the Kosovo War. Leaving the army in October of 2001, Fidel's last month in the service was shaped by the 9/11 attack on the World Trade Center. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Vega, Fidel Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Vega, Nikki (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/825ecced28e8df30d10f810a0c034ecc.mp4 ba3e9b46c965c475b45605fe999c5d5f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8d0c61a2f4f9f27e7754e85627770d7c.pdf 0bf112e86b4938e3e1eb83e4a2ea5ac4 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Willard Veenstra World War II 48 minutes 25 seconds (00:00:38) Early Life -Born on December 16, 1925 in Grand Rapids, Michigan -He was the youngest of ten children -His father was a house painter -Born in the Netherlands -Learned his profession in the Netherlands -Remembers that his father had consistent work through the Great Depression -He was employed by a business that bought up and repaired foreclosed houses -His mother stayed at home and cared for the children -She was relatively old when Willard was born -She died when he was fifteen years old -Graduated from Union High School on June 15, 1944 (00:02:19) Getting Drafted Pt. 1 -Five days after graduating from high school he was at a base in Illinois being processed -He had received his draft notice before he graduated from high school (00:02:42) Start of the War -He was at a friend’s house on December 7, 1941 in the afternoon -Remembers hearing the radio broadcast telling of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor -He thought that the war would be over before he was old enough to serve -One of his older brothers got into the Army before he did -Served in World War II and in Korea -Eventually became a lieutenant colonel -Another brother got into the Navy -A few brothers in law also got into the military (00:05:43) Getting Drafted Pt. 2 -He decided to just wait to get drafted instead of enlisting -He reported to Fort Sheridan, Illinois to be processed and sworn into the Army -Traded in his civilian clothes for Army clothes at this point (00:06:30) Basic Training -Sent to Camp Blanding, Florida for basic training -Arrived there in July 1944 -A large part of the training was physical training -Marching and getting into shape -He learned how to shoot a rifle -Also received training with the 37mm and 57mm antitank guns -Glad that he never had to use them in combat though -Wouldn’t have been effective against the German tanks -Remembers that 1944 was a hot summer in Florida -When they marched back from the rifle range an ambulance followed them �-This was in case anyone passed out due to the heat -He trained with men that were his age as well as some older men -He didn’t learn much about them -Knew that they came from all over the United States -There was a focus on discipline and following orders -It wasn’t difficult for him to adjust to being in the Army -When he completed basic training he was given a thirty day leave (00:11:00) Stationed at Fort Meade -He reported to Fort Meade, Maryland in early November 1944 -He was supposed to receive more training with the antitank guns, but that never happened -Issued winter clothing at Fort Meade -Knew at that point he was definitely being sent to the European Theatre (00:11:48) Deployment to the European Theatre -From Fort Meade he was sent up to a camp north of New York City -Most likely Camp Shanks -Didn’t stay there very long -Sent down to New York Harbor to board a ship there -It was a Dutch ship that had been repurposed to carry troops -He was in New York City around Christmas 1944 -On the voyage over to Europe they ran into a bad storm -Some of the men got seasick -It took over a week to get across the Atlantic Ocean -Travelled as a part of a convoy (00:14:08) Arrival in Europe & the Battle of the Bulge -Arrived at Le Havre, France -He was assigned to the 2nd Armored Division -He was placed on a truck and sent to Belgium where the 2nd Armored Division was -Battle of the Bulge was still being fought at this time -2nd Armored Division had been sent down from the Netherlands -Helping to clear out the remaining German forces in Belgium (00:15:50) The Netherlands -After the Battle of the Bulge ended on January 25, 1945 they returned to the Netherlands -Got back there in February 1945 -Carried out various training exercises -He was part of the 41st Armored Infantry Regiment -Regular infantry that just happened to ride in armored vehicles -He was probably the youngest man in his company -Just made sure to watch what the other men were doing so as to learn -They were staying in people’s homes in the Netherlands -Stayed in the Netherlands until they made the final offensive into Germany -During his time in the Netherlands the 2nd Armored Division was issued new tanks -Had to learn what they looked like so as to differentiate them from the German tanks -The Dutch family that he was staying with could speak English fairly well -He could see the Siegfried Line from where he was staying (00:19:54) Advancing into Germany-Rhine Campaign -When the division moved out he remembers crossing a few rivers �-Had pontoon bridges set up so that troops and vehicles could get across -The advance began in March 1945 -Remembers in some German towns bulldozers were used to push aside the rubble -They spent a few weeks moving across northern Germany -They faced some opposition during the advance -Remembers one town that was full of snipers -Civilians were instructed to remove the snipers, or the town would be shelled -The civilians did not comply and the town was bombarded -On April 1, 1945 they came to another town and took it without opposition -As they advanced they checked side roads for German supplies or soldiers -The only major resistance they ran into was when they came to an open area -He was out in front of his squad when they started taking fire from a power station -Bullets were flying over his head -Eventually the shooting stopped and when they got to the station it was abandoned -They didn’t run into any German tanks during the push across Germany -The resistance was so light that they didn’t need air cover or artillery support -He saw quite a few German civilians -Captured some German soldiers and had them march back to the rear to be processed -They were able to travel seventy three miles in one day -Unprecedented in World War II when only one hundred yards would be taken in a day -Able to do this by riding on tanks on the Autobahn -Eventually reached the city of Magdeburg, Germany on April 11, 1945 -This was after the 2nd Armored Division crossed the Elbe River -Stopped there due to orders and a lack of gas (00:26:50) Contact with the Germans -He couldn’t tell how old the Germans were -Their uniforms and the way they all looked made them seem ageless -He remembers when his unit captured a German officer’s headquarters -The soldiers there surrendered without incident and handed over their weapons -He was able to get two Lugers (German pistols) that looked brand new -Wound up losing them after he got wounded in Magdeburg (00:27:45) Getting Wounded -On April 11 they got to the city of Magdeburg -Spent the night there sleeping on the floor of a train station -On April 12 they began to patrol the city and make it secure -They came to a collection of large, concrete sewer pipes -There was a German soldier standing in one armed with a Panzerfaust -A type of German antitank weapon -Willard turned around to warn the tank with the patrol of the threat -He was forced to take cover in one of the other pipes -The tank fired at the German soldier -Concussion was strong enough to knock a cigarette out of his mouth -He, and a few other men got separated from the rest of the patrol -Started to make their way back to the patrol when Willard got shot in the wrist by a sniper (00:31:08) Evacuated -He was taken back to where the tanks were and he was stabilized �-An ambulance was sent out to collect him, as well as other wounded Americans and Germans -He was sent to various field hospitals -Received penicillin shots to insure that an infection didn’t set in -Learned that the bullet had shattered his right wrist bones and caused nerve damage -Sent to a hospital in Cambridge, England -Given good cots to sleep in -Served tea with their meals until the Americans complained enough to get coffee -Got the chance to explore Cambridge -From Cambridge he was sent up to Glasgow, Scotland -Spent a few days there -Boarded a plane in Glasgow and was flown back to the United States -Stopped in Iceland to refuel (00:34:56) Recovery in the United States -Arrived in Mitchell Field, New York and was placed on another plane -Flown to Memphis, Tennessee then was taken to Kennedy VA Hospital -His hand was operated on there -It was part of the University of Tennessee -Arrived there in May 1945 -He was able to see his family on Memorial Day 1945 -Had hand surgery in August 1945 -Stayed at the hospital until March 1946 when he was discharged from the Army -Spent most of his time playing golf or bowling -Allowed to visit downtown Memphis -Remembers seeing a football game one night -He was able to go home on leave quite a few times while he was in the hospital (00:38:55) End of the War -He was in the hospital when the war in Europe ended on May 8, 1945 -There were celebrations, but people knew that the war wasn’t over yet -He remembers being in the hospital when Japan surrendered -The celebrations were big and everyone was happy -Even one stern nurse smiled the day that victory was declared (00:39:43) Life after the War -After he was discharged from the Army he returned to Grand Rapids to work with his father -Did that for a while until he decided that he didn’t like it anymore -Didn’t want to fall off of a ladder and get hurt again -He went to college for a little while, but ultimately decided that he wasn’t ready for it -He went to a technical vocational school -Took a nine month course in technical drafting -Graduated from that as a draftsman -Went to work as an apprentice at one of the oldest architectural offices in Grand Rapids -Received in office training that lasted four years -Same office that designed the Grand Rapids Civic Auditorium -Did design work for Herpolsheimer’s and Wurzburg’s -Went on to work for another architectural office for two years -Worked for another company that designed reinforced concrete structures -Got married in 1950 �-Married for sixty four years (at the time of the interview) -Had five children, eleven grandchildren, and four great grandchildren (00:43:15) Reflections on Service and Memories of the War -Learned that war is not a thing that you wanted to be involved in -It was a different kind of experience for a nineteen year old -He became close with the men that he served with -Attributes this to the fact that they were all in it together -Saw a friendly fire incident when his squad was clearing a house -One man shot his best friend in the stomach by accident -Never knew if the man survived -Didn’t see much physical evidence of the Nazis while he was in Germany -Remembers when they rescued some French prisoners of war from a prison camp -He remembers the winter of 1944/1945 and the living conditions that that entailed -Had to sleep on the ground in a sleeping bag under a half shelter -Would wake up to snow on the ground -Remembers running into a dead cow in the middle of the road and how much it stunk -He saw firsthand the toll that the war had taken on the civilians of Europe � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_VeenstraW1700V Title A name given to the resource Veenstra, Willard (Interview outline and video), 2014 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-10-30 Description An account of the resource Willard Veenstra was born in 1925 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He was drafted in 1944 and reported after graduating from high school that June. He trained at Camp Blanding, Florida, and Fort Meade, Maryland. He was sent to Europe in January, 1945, and was sent to the 2nd Armored Division as a replacement during the final days of the Battle of the Bulge. He returned to the Netherlands with them for training and was assigned to the 41st Armored Infantry Regiment of the 2nd Armored Division. In March 1945 they marched into Germany and fought across northern Germany, known as the Rhine Campaign, until they reached Magdeburg. He was wounded in Magdeburg on April 12, 1945 and was eventually evacuated to the United States. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Veenstra, Willard Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8e8973d20fab302cc17d9a2cd412a261.m4v 7501a2fae666bfab2564992d88f2687c https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8c6a9c2f98e52827f2671f0c5f818022.pdf e2bcc94f4272ebc683c2d4316481f7a8 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Jack VanHoef World War II 33 minutes 38 seconds (00:00:10) Early Life -Born in Grand Haven, Michigan in 1925 -His father was a machinist in a factory -Able to keep his job throughout the Great Depression -He worked for Keller Tool Company which was a stable company -He (Jack) worked a few jobs growing up -As a caddy at a golf course -At a tannery mixing dyes -Unenjoyable job (00:01:20) Start of the War and Awareness of the War -He was listening to a football game when it was interrupted by the news broadcast -That‟s how he heard about Pearl Harbor being bombed -At that moment knew he‟d probably have to fight in the war -Before Pearl Harbor he had paid attention to the war in Europe -Some of his teachers talked about the developments in Europe -His older brother went into the Army as a major -He had been in the Reserve Officer Training Corps which allowed him to do that -His other brother entered the service shortly before he did (00:02:32) Enlisting in the Army -He enlisted in the Army in 1943 -He wasn‟t able to attend his high school graduation -At the time that was going on he was being sworn in, in Detroit (00:02:50) Basic Training -Sent to Biloxi, Mississippi for basic training -Going to basic training was the first step of getting into the Army Air Corps -He got to Biloxi by way of a troop train -They were provided with boxcars that had cots in them -It was a hot journey to Mississippi -The train ride took three days -Remembers that Biloxi was hot and mosquito infested -Basic training consisted of marching and physical training -Didn‟t receive any technical training at that time -The drill instructors asserted their authority immediately -Completing basic training was the first step in becoming a pilot (00:05:00) College Training -After basic training he was sent to North Carolina State College in Raleigh, North Carolina -This stage of training was called „college training‟ -Took place after two (or three) months at Biloxi -College training was focused on taking mathematics courses �-The training was a militarized version of college courses -Remembers marching in a parade in Raleigh -During college training they were given some free time -Go to the PX (military general store), or visit Raleigh -College training lasted three months -Originally, pilots were supposed to be college graduates -College training allowed for recruits to get at least some college courses (00:07:15) Classification and Radio School -From North Carolina he was sent to Nashville, Tennessee to receive his classification -The point at which you would be assigned to your specialization -His classification was to be a radio operator onboard an aircraft -He was sent to radio school in Scott Field, Illinois -During radio school he received training on how to interpret Morse code -Radio school also consisted of learning how to fix and build radios -The primary focus in radio school was getting trainees acquainted with the radio equipment -During downtime would visit East St. Louis -Radio school wasn‟t difficult for him -He spent three (or four) months in radio school -By now it was 1944 (00:09:39) Training in Yuma, Arizona -After radio school he was assigned to a bomber crew -He flew training missions with his crew in Yuma, Arizona -Spent three months in Arizona -The aircraft that he trained on was the B-24 Liberator bomber -His position on the B-24 was to be the radioman and a gunner -The gun that he manned was the top turret (gun on the top of the plane) -He distinctly remembers the other crewmen and got along with all of them -Became friends with the navigator and the bombardier -The bombardier was a fellow Michigander -There were ten crewmen per bomber -Before Yuma he had never flown before -His first flight went fine (00:12:55) Following the War -During his training he followed the progression of the war -He paid special attention to what his brothers were doing during the war -By time he got to San Francisco he knew that he and his crew were going to the Pacific Theatre (00:13:40) Deployment to the Pacific Theatre -He wasn‟t given any leave home before being deployed -He spent Christmas 1944 in Hawaii -Flew from San Francisco to Hawaii in their B-24 -After Hawaii flew to Johnston Island of the Johnston Atoll -After the Johnston Atoll flew to Guam (00:14:38) Arrival in New Guinea -Landed at New Guinea and was assigned to their unit there -In New Guinea had some contact with the natives and would bargain with them -He and his crew were assigned to the 90th Bomber Group of the 5th Air Force �-They weren‟t assigned to a particular B-24 -You had to fly what was available -This meant you could fly a different aircraft for each mission -The 13th Air Force was also in New Guinea along with the 5th Air Force -Their base was in a coconut grove and consisted of tents -The mosquitoes weren‟t a problem due to mosquito netting -Had to take daily Atabrine tablets to prevent malaria (00:16:57) Flying Missions -About a week after arriving in New Guinea they began flying missions -Their first mission was to Formosa (Taiwan) -It was a ten hour mission -Whenever they flew missions they received flak -Flak is a shrapnel based antiaircraft weapon -Doesn‟t recall every losing any aircraft during their missions -Flew their missions at an altitude of 10,000 feet -Ironically enough that was also the maximum distance for flak guns -They were escorted by P-51 Mustang fighter planes -This meant that Japanese fighters stayed away from the bombers -Flew missions from February 1945 to the end of the war in August 1945 -Flew a total of twenty eight missions -One of their missions was bombing Kowloon Harbor -Dry dock used by the Japanese near Hong Kong -One of their missions involved covering an American invasion -Bombed oil fields in Borneo -Nerve wracking mission because the odds of surviving a crash were slim -Either had to survive the jungles, or head-hunter tribes -Flew missions out of the Philippines based on the island of Mindoro -They attacked targets in the Philippines in areas that were still Japanese held -One mission was to support the U.S. invasion of the Filipino island of Mindanao -Carried a wide variety of bombs during each mission -Carried 2000 pound bombs, 100 pound bombs, cluster bombs, etc. (00:21:57) Two near Death Incidents -During takeoff their engines lost power -This caused the bomber to go off the runway and sheer a wing off in the process -They all got lucky because usually if that happened the bomber would crash and explode -During takeoff they were carrying fuel, reserve fuel, and a full bomb payload -He remembers getting out of the bomber and running as fast as he could away from it -Thought that it would explode and he wanted to get away from it -Only one crewman was injured in the crash, and he only sustained a few broken ribs -During one mission had to land on the Filipino island of Luzon because of engine problems -The next day on the base he was walking to the mess hall and a storm rolled in -A lightning bolt hit mere feet away from where he was walking -He was almost killed twice due to freak accidents, but not by the Japanese -By the time he began flying missions the Japanese were on the defensive (00:24:14) Relationship with Civilians, Downtime, and Contact with Home -While he was in the Philippines they would have some Filipinos on the base �-He was able to visit Luzon and go into cities on leave -Remembers one time in the Philippines he went duck hunting with some officers -Later learned that the marshes they were in were infested with venomous snakes -Went swimming in the Pacific Ocean -Didn‟t have any access to radio -Kept in contact with home solely by way of mail -He was able to regularly receive mail from home -He received his Christmas presents for 1944 in early spring 1945 -Also received newspapers from home -Supplemented the military newspaper, “Stars and Stripes” (00:26:04) End of the War Pt. 1 -He and his crew were moved to the island of Ie Shima (Iejima) -This would be their final location for the war -Stationed on Ie Shima when peace was declared -There was no formal base for them, so they just pitched tents -Lived in a general area with other crews (00:27:00) Relationship with Officers -Enlisted men were allowed to associate with officers in the Army Air Corps -They would routinely play sports together -Remembers playing baseball with officers and even boxing with them (00:28:01) End of the War Pt. 2 -Learned about the atomic bombings immediately after they happened -Didn‟t understand the devastation and power of the weapons at the time -All the men were in favor of them being used to end the war -They were on Ie Shima when the Japanese peace envoy was sent to meet with the Americans -During their downtime at the end of the war they would go fishing with grenades -Walked around the coast and searched the coral and caves for anything interesting -Found a few dead Japanese soldiers, but that was about it -They stayed for a month at Ie Shima before being sent home (00:30:08) Coming Home and Life after the War -He was sent to Baer Field, Indiana and discharged from there -Took a train back to Grand Rapids, Michigan and then took a cab back to Grand Haven -Immediately following his discharge he took a moment to just relax -Went to college at Western Michigan University -Took some general courses -Stayed there for two and a half years before leaving -He was a bartender at a local hotel for a few years with a close friend -He wound up getting a career as an industrial engineer after returning to college -First found work at a local factory and worked there for a while -A friend opened his own factory and he (Jack) was made a plant manager (00:32:33) Reflections on Service -Doesn‟t feel that there is any great philosophical meaning to be taken away from it -Just glad that you and your comrades survived the war and remember those who didn‟t -Feels that all in all it was a great experience -Got to see parts of the world and the United States that otherwise he wouldn‟t have gotten to see -Saw that some places are truly beautiful, and saw that some places are truly miserable � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_VanHoefJ1667V Title A name given to the resource VanHoef, Jack (Interview outline and video), 2014 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-09-11 Description An account of the resource Jack VanHoef was born in Grand Haven, Michigan in 1925. In 1943 he enlisted in the Army with the intention of going into the Army Air Corps. He received basic training at Biloxi, Mississippi college training at North Carolina State College in Raleigh, North Carolina he was classified to be a radio operator onboard an aircraft and was sent to radio school at Scott Field, Illinois and upon completing that was assigned to a B-24 Liberator bomber crew in Yuma, Arizona. He and his crew were deployed to the Pacific Theatre and in early 1945 they reached New Guinea and he and his crew were assigned to a squadron in the 90th Bomber Group of the 5th Air Force. He began flying missions in February 1945 out of New Guinea and out of the Philippines and did so until the end of the war in August 1945. He flew missions against targets in China, Indonesia, Taiwan, and the Philippines not only serving as his bomber's radioman, but also as a turret gunner. He was discharged in August 1945. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource VanHoef, Jack Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Air Forces Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf